# 150 Yards Out



## timhowe (Jan 14, 2017)

Hereâ€™s a thought.

My best most reliable shot in my bag is a 150 yard 8 iron. This is the shot I practice most and the shot I feel most comfortable with. So, I sat down one day and worked out what club I would need (par 4â€™s only but you could do it on a par five with your second shot) off the tee to leave me 150 yard out from the pin. I then wrote these down and went to the club and put it into action. 

What a difference it made. 

I no longer take the Big Dog out on a tight par 4 or sweeping dog leg. On one hole at my local club (350 yards) I normally took the Driver and hoped to thread it through the eye of a needle. 7 out of 10 attempts I would be in the trees as it was a very tight par 4. 

I now take a 5 iron and hit that about 200 yards leaving me the requisite 150 yards out. The anxiety and pre-hole stress levels are reduced many fold as I know a 5 iron I could hit the required distance probably 7 out of 10 times. 

If you do this on say 12 holes (allowing a course of 4 par 3â€™s, 2 par 5â€™s and 12 par 4â€™s).

You are getting a success ratio of 7 out of 10 of the tee on the par 4â€™s where before you only had a 3 out of 10 you now have a shot saving of at least 4. In practice though this should yield an 8 to 10 shot savings as you are not chipping out of trees, dropping out of water or going out of bounds etc.

Please try this and give it a few games then report back I would love to know if it helped your game as much as it has mine. 

Remember the score card does not have a club selected requirement just a scoreâ€¦â€¦â€¦


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## Robobum (Jan 14, 2017)

17 yds between clubs is huge!! I'd go get my gapping looked at.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 14, 2017)

Glad these numbers work well for you Tim.

For most mortals they will have better % from 100 than 150 and, critically, are probably using a driver, or at least a 3 wood, to hit it 200 in current conditions.  These facts, combined with a lack of holes at 350 and under (we only have 2 under 400 and one of those has a 230 carry to the main fairway area...) mean that for most (where I play) it's their primary tee club to have any chance of reaching the green in 2 (not that that's necessarily important - but a different principle).

That you shouldn't automatically reach for a driver on a par 4 tee is a well established and written about principle - what happens next will be different for everyone!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 14, 2017)

Well done to you. I wish I had that reliability at 150yds, such a critical distance. I use the same theory for 100yds, a PW for me and something I am fairly consistent with. When others bomb up and get to 40-60yds etc I will set up quite deliberately to sit at the 100yd mark. Obviously you will get to use your method more often than mine as 150yd or around is a more standard distance for a second shot. Good feeling when a plan comes together though.


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## Dasit (Jan 14, 2017)

A lot of studies show that what you lose from wayward drives you more than make up for it from being nearer the pin on the good ones.

If you are only hitting the fairway 3 out of 10 times maybe a driver lesson is needed, or a new more forgiving driver.



Quick question, if you hit a shot into a bunker at 100 yards from the pin which is ground under repair, and you can drop anywhere back from it in line with the pin, which is all fairway.

Do you walk 50 yards back and put the ball at 150 yards?


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## KenL (Jan 14, 2017)

What do you do in the wind?

Is it your tee shots that let you down or your 9 iron or wedge play?

Looks like you are compromising in playing this way and in the long run should try and improve your overall game.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jan 14, 2017)

Amazing game,  isn't it? I take completely the opposite approach to you.  I'll take driver on most holes because I know I'm not likely to be any wider than the semi rough.  I'd rather be hitting wedge from 100 yards out of semi than a 5 iron (for me)  from 150. I can't think. Of anyone I play with who is better from 150 yards than from 100. From 150 I'm just looking to hit the green.  From 100 yards in I'm wanting to be somewhere close to the flag.  Most of my practice is distance control with the wedge,  on the basis that I'm more likely to miss long or short than left or right. 

I would say that you're practising the wrong shot if the 150 yard 8 iron is your best.  Learn to drive straight & drop a wedge on a sixpence,  then you should give yourself more birdie opportunities.

Your signature doesn't mention your handicap (always useful for others to know)  but I'm willing to bet it's not that low.  If you want it to come down I think you need to rethink your practice routine.


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## patricks148 (Jan 14, 2017)

Happy with any shot under 150 tbh


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 14, 2017)

I think the expression you are looking for is 'course management'

It's no secret that it's an essential part of lowering your handicap.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 14, 2017)

Apart from 150 yards being a 6 iron most of the time for me I get the theory and I can see how it would potentially save shots. As I'm not that consistent and long it's more about 100 yards and in that I'm working on this winter


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## jusme (Jan 14, 2017)

Always nice to doubt the claims. Whilst not unusual to hit a 5 iron 200 (not for me) it seems a little odd that a stock 8 goes 150 and 5 200. Like further explanation. I am not far of the 150 for an 8 but no where near 200 for a 5.


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## Fish (Jan 14, 2017)

jusme said:



			Always nice to doubt the claims. Whilst not unusual to hit a 5 iron 200 (not for me) it seems a little odd that a stock 8 goes 150 and 5 200. Like further explanation. I am not far of the 150 for an 8 but no where near 200 for a 5.
		
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You can't take a lot from declared yardages from certain irons as so many are cranked and as such his 5i could be a 4i in old money. In saying that though, his 8 to 5 being 50yds variable is poor gapping for 4 clubs imo. 

I'd be interested in knowing what handicap he is and if it indeed comes down next season using this methodology.


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## KenL (Jan 14, 2017)

I don't know precisely but I think I am pretty much 10 yards between clubs.  8 iron for me is 140 - 145 yards.


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## the_coach (Jan 14, 2017)

timhowe said:



			Hereâ€™s a thought.

My best most reliable shot in my bag is a 150 yard 8 iron. This is the shot I practice most and the shot I feel most comfortable with. So, I sat down one day and worked out what club I would need (par 4â€™s only but you could do it on a par five with your second shot) off the tee to leave me 150 yard out from the pin. I then wrote these down and went to the club and put it into action. 

What a difference it made. 

I no longer take the Big Dog out on a tight par 4 or sweeping dog leg. On one hole at my local club (350 yards) I normally took the Driver and hoped to thread it through the eye of a needle. 7 out of 10 attempts I would be in the trees as it was a very tight par 4. 

I now take a 5 iron and hit that about 200 yards leaving me the requisite 150 yards out. The anxiety and pre-hole stress levels are reduced many fold as I know a 5 iron I could hit the required distance probably 7 out of 10 times. 

If you do this on say 12 holes (allowing a course of 4 par 3â€™s, 2 par 5â€™s and 12 par 4â€™s).

You are getting a success ratio of 7 out of 10 of the tee on the par 4â€™s where before you only had a 3 out of 10 you now have a shot saving of at least 4. In practice though this should yield an 8 to 10 shot savings as you are not chipping out of trees, dropping out of water or going out of bounds etc.

Please try this and give it a few games then report back I would love to know if it helped your game as much as it has mine. 

Remember the score card does not have a club selected requirement just a scoreâ€¦â€¦â€¦
		
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good to see folks start to look at how best scores can be put together given the current skill sets they are working with
for sure course management real important to all folks games to get the best score outcomes 
to that real important to know the average 'real' carry distances for all clubs

to improve the game overall it's huge important to spend a good percentage of any practice session from 130 yards in plus time on the putting green
but also it's paramount not to fall into the trap of mostly practicing what folks are already good at - for sure keep that ticking over
but practice weaknesses rather than just mainly sticking to strengths - however uncomfortable that may be at the outset


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## bladeplayer (Jan 14, 2017)

the_coach said:



			good to see folks start to look at how best scores can be put together given the current skill sets they are working with
for sure course management real important to all folks games to get the best score outcomes 
to that real important to know the average 'real' carry distances for all clubs

to improve the game overall it's huge important to spend a good percentage of any practice session from 130 yards in plus time on the putting green
but also it's paramount not to fall into the trap of mostly practicing what folks are already good at - for sure keep that ticking over
but practice weaknesses rather than just mainly sticking to strengths - however uncomfortable that may be at the outset

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..
I was gona say something on the lines of this , i agree totaly to playing to your strengths as per the OP .

BUT It is setting you up for a one dimensional game which if you are only ever going to play one course , i supose it could be ok , but if you have ideas of becoming a better golfer or playing other courses you may find yourself  struggling 

Course management is a good thing & laying up short of or away from trouble is smart,  to build your so much around the criteria in the OP is a bit flawed in my opinion


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 15, 2017)

I came up with the rule that a par 4 has to be over 360 before I consider the driver. I can get on the green in 2 with two good irons or a hybrid/fairway wood and an iron.

Longer par 4s, over 400 are three shots to the green anyway so also only take a driver when I can turn that 3 into 2 with almost certainly.

Three goals method comes into play...


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## Craigg (Jan 15, 2017)

I can squeeze 180 carry out of a 5 iron so I don't suppose 200 is out of the question with a good bounce and a bit of roll.


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## SteveJay (Jan 15, 2017)

ScienceBoy said:



			I came up with the rule that a par 4 has to be over 360 before I consider the driver. I can get on the green in 2 with two good irons or a hybrid/fairway wood and an iron.
		
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Not quite sure why you would have this as a hard and fast rule. If there are minimal hazards surely a driver would be preferable as it would leave a much shorter second shot...you might rip one and get close to the green giving a better birdie opportunity than, say, a mid iron from 150 (unless you are the OP hitting it close from 150 all the time )


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## Scozzy (Jan 15, 2017)

Play what's in front of you is how I must play...why? Links golf is my game 99% of the time,one day a PW is 150 the next you can barely get a 3 wood to carry that! Distance is what it is,a repeatable swing is the thing.....


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## MadAdey (Jan 16, 2017)

Dasit said:



			A lot of studies show that what you lose from wayward drives you more than make up for it from being nearer the pin on the good ones.

If you are only hitting the fairway 3 out of 10 times maybe a driver lesson is needed, or a new more forgiving driver.



Quick question, if you hit a shot into a bunker at 100 yards from the pin which is ground under repair, and you can drop anywhere back from it in line with the pin, which is all fairway.

Do you walk 50 yards back and put the ball at 150 yards?
		
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What study was this then? How to be an 18 handicapper for life?


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## ruff-driver (Jan 16, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			What study was this then? How to be an 18 handicapper for life?
		
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Adey,can i borrow your copy when your done


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## Maninblack4612 (Jan 16, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			What study was this then? How to be an 18 handicapper for life?
		
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I disagree with you.

Unless on a VERY tight course I would use a driver most times to get as close to the green as possible. If I finish in semi rough or fairway with a wedge to the green I have a great chance of hitting the green. If I am in thick rough,  then it's a hack out,  wedge to the green & possible one putt par,  bogey at worst. Leaving myself 150 yards out every time,  I couldn't guarantee hitting the green often enough.

Learn to drive it straight enough to miss the thick stuff & practice the short game a lot. Works for me!


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## sawtooth (Jan 16, 2017)

SteveJay said:



			Not quite sure why you would have this as a hard and fast rule. If there are minimal hazards surely a driver would be preferable as it would leave a much shorter second shot...you might rip one and get close to the green giving a better birdie opportunity than, say, a mid iron from 150 (unless you are the OP hitting it close from 150 all the time )
		
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Exactly , come Summer there are plenty of drivable par 4s why limit yourself?


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## badgermat (Jan 16, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			What study was this then? How to be an 18 handicapper for life?
		
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From the sound of it he was referring to Mark Brodie's book Every Shot Counts.

This is based many thousands of amateur and professional game stats, and concludes (broadly) that as long as you're not actually out of bounds, regardless of whether you're in the rough, tees or fairway you'll score better if your drive is closer to the pin. And that the drive is the most important shot of any hole.

His stats drive a truck through the conventional wisdom that it's the short game that counts, and suggest that even the best pros are only marginally better than average players at putting.

I'm not sure he was taking my power-fade slice into consideration though 

bm


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## MadAdey (Jan 16, 2017)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I disagree with you.

Unless on a VERY tight course I would use a driver most times to get as close to the green as possible. If I finish in semi rough or fairway with a wedge to the green I have a great chance of hitting the green. If I am in thick rough,  then it's a hack out,  wedge to the green & possible one putt par,  bogey at worst. Leaving myself 150 yards out every time,  I couldn't guarantee hitting the green often enough.

Learn to drive it straight enough to miss the thick stuff & practice the short game a lot. Works for me!
		
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I suppose it also depends on the sort of distance you hit the ball. If you only drive it 220 yards and hit a 6i 150 then maybe you need to hit driver, or you'll not have much chance of making pars. But people who talk about driving greens obviously hits a long ball. So why risk putting it in the rough on a short hole, struggling for par, when another club that leaves you in the fairway with a nice little wedge in? 

Maybe some of us are fortunate enough to hit a long ball, so we do have options on par 4's. For me 350 yards is a 3W and an easy GW, so all hitting driver does is leave me with a little half shot that is harder to control the distance on and it also increases the chance of not being in the fairway.


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## MadAdey (Jan 16, 2017)

badgermat said:



			From the sound of it he was referring to Mark Brodie's book Every Shot Counts.

This is based many thousands of amateur and professional game stats, and concludes (broadly) that as long as you're not actually out of bounds, regardless of whether you're in the rough, tees or fairway you'll score better if your drive is closer to the pin. And that the drive is the most important shot of any hole.

His stats drive a truck through the conventional wisdom that it's the short game that counts, and suggest that even the best pros are only marginally better than average players at putting.

I'm not sure he was taking my power-fade slice into consideration though 

bm
		
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Not sure that hitting a ball within 50 yards of the green with a driver but having to hack it out of the trees is a better option than leaving it 100 yards back in the fairway......

I agree that your tee shot is very important to any handicap golfer. But putting it in play is more important than hitting it as far down the hole as possible.


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## Dasit (Jan 16, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			Not sure that hitting a ball within 50 yards of the green with a driver but having to hack it out of the trees is a better option than leaving it 100 yards back in the fairway......

I agree that your tee shot is very important to any handicap golfer. But putting it in play is more important than hitting it as far down the hole as possible.
		
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A shot that ends 50 yards shorter than your driver isn't going to magically be on the fairway every time.

Think it is a bit of a fallacy using a drive in the trees vs a shot of the fairway.


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## badgermat (Jan 16, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			Not sure that hitting a ball within 50 yards of the green with a driver but having to hack it out of the trees is a better option than leaving it 100 yards back in the fairway......

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Oh I share your doubt, I really do. But that is exactly Brodie's contention, based on the numbers (actual shots in actual games played).

It wouldn't be the first time that "conventional wisdom" or even "the bleedin' obvious" was disproven by detailed statistical analysis of the real world though. 

To be fair, I think the distance differential has to be fairly sizeable (35 yds plus) for Brodie's analysis to work. But it's an interesting theory nonetheless.

bm


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## MadAdey (Jan 17, 2017)

Dasit said:



			A shot that ends 50 yards shorter than your driver isn't going to magically be on the fairway every time.

Think it is a bit of a fallacy using a drive in the trees vs a shot of the fairway.
		
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So your tour pros are hitting around 6 or 7 out of 10 fairways, your normal handicap golfer is probably hitting 4/5 out of 10 with a driver. So I have a choice of hitting it 270-280 yards and finding 5/10 fairways, or as you said hitting it 50 yards shorter and hitting it 230 with my hybrid, which if I'm not hitting the fairway I would be horrified. I can't even remember that last time I used my rescue I didn't find the fairway to be honest. 

I've put a couple of pics in this post to give an example of why take a driver and get in trouble. The hole is about 400 to the middle of the green from an elevated tee that gives you about an extra 10 yards with what ever you hit. The water cuts in at about 240 yards and cuts across at about 280. If your in those trees on the left you really have no shot to the green and the water also stops you from trying to run one up short of the green and if you do get it over the water the slope stops it running anywhere. The green is more elevated than the pic shows and requires hitting at least 1 extra club than normal to get it up there. So 2 choices for me as there is a risk I will run out of fairway with a driver. 3W and leave an 8i to the middle of the green, or hit my rescue into the widest part and leave a 6i. How would you play it?


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## Dasit (Jan 17, 2017)

Not sure why you are getting so worked up and using loaded examples to make your point.


No one is saying use your driver for every par 4 or par 5.



There is clear evidence that distance is more important than accuracy. Doesn't mean shooting the ball off the planet, just means dropping your FiR down a few percent so your average approach is less.


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## MadAdey (Jan 17, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Not sure why you are getting so worked up and using loaded examples to make your point.


No one is saying use your driver for every par 4 or par 5.



There is clear evidence that distance is more important than accuracy. Doesn't mean shooting the ball off the planet, just means dropping your FiR down a few percent so your average approach is less.
		
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My example is from my track, that's why I used it as I know the hole. It's a perfect example why I do not agree with distance over accuracy. Go to where I play with that Bermuda rough and tell me that you don't care about being in the rough. If it's all about distance from the tee then why don't the tour pros use a driver on every hole? It's because even though it's nice to get it out there to leave a shorter approach, sometimes it's more important to be on the fairway, even though you will have a longer approach.


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## bobmac (Jan 17, 2017)

Dasit said:



			There is clear evidence that distance is more important than accuracy.
		
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I'm with Adey on this one.
You can't just say one part of the game is more important than the other.

You'll never be any good if you cant hit any fairways with the driver
You'll never be any good if you miss every green
You'll never be any good if you 3 putt every green

If you want to be a good player, ALL parts of the game need to be good.

It's just easier to improve the short game, you just buy more wedges


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 17, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Not sure why you are getting so worked up and using loaded examples to make your point.


No one is saying use your driver for every par 4 or par 5.



There is clear evidence that distance is more important than accuracy. Doesn't mean shooting the ball off the planet, just means dropping your FiR down a few percent so your average approach is less.
		
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Really? Distance is more important. No good to me if I hit it 260-270 and find 4/10 fairways and what if I can't find it at all in the rough or the trees and playing three off the tee. Give me short and playable every time. Easier to make a score when you can see it, and play forward rather than under trees. Sorry but I'll have to disagree with you on this


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## SAPCOR1 (Jan 17, 2017)

Decent strategy if it is used as a building block for continuous improvement.  Biggest fly in the ointment that I can see that it is a one course model.

I always thought it was a good idea to regularly play different courses to get you out of your comfort zone (says the man who only played two courses in 2016 &#129300


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## DRW (Jan 17, 2017)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I disagree with you.

Unless on a VERY tight course I would use a driver most times to get as close to the green as possible. If I finish in semi rough or fairway with a wedge to the green I have a great chance of hitting the green. If I am in thick rough,  then it's a hack out,  wedge to the green & possible one putt par,  bogey at worst. Leaving myself 150 yards out every time,  I couldn't guarantee hitting the green often enough.

Learn to drive it straight enough to miss the thick stuff & practice the short game a lot. Works for me!
		
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I agree with this. Yeah most of the time semi rough or fairway doesn't make a lot of difference to my next shot if a short club is in my hand.

The only thing I am missing is to learn to drive it straight enough to miss the thick stuff/trees some of the time, DOH

I only carry a driver about 220 yards plus rollout in summer, so need every bit of distance tbh. I think some people on the thread who are talking about 270 yards on a drive are playing a different game and have a lot more choices as they are just hitting everything so much longer. So can see both sides.


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## MadAdey (Jan 17, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			I agree with this. Yeah most of the time semi rough or fairway doesn't make a lot of difference to my next shot if a short club is in my hand.

The only thing I am missing is to learn to drive it straight enough to miss the thick stuff/trees some of the time, DOH

I only carry a driver about 220 yards plus rollout in summer, so need every bit of distance tbh. I think some people on the thread who are talking about 270 yards on a drive are playing a different game and have a lot more choices as they are just hitting everything so much longer. So can see both sides.
		
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I did mention about that earlier. It is maybe easier for people that are fortunate enough to hit it a good distance to sit and criticize a shorter hitter that always needs a driver. You certainly do have a lot more options from the tee, be able to clear over 350 yards with a hybrid and PW compared to someone who needs a driver and an 8i, it is a different game.


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## Scozzy (Jan 17, 2017)

Its  highlighting what we all face...can you beat old man par? Millions of ways to do it,very useful to shift it right out there with the big dog however I still rue the SF of  club champs 3 yrs ago when I threw it away trying blow my opponent off the course with a huge length (and age!!)advantage over him.What happened? He was absolutely deadly with his wedge and putter,all of a sudden im spraying it everywhere,putting for halves and we went down 18 where I promptly hit a huuuge drive....out of bounds to hand him the tie! Shocking course management on my part and complete opposite on his..lesson? Know your game,I could of beat him with a 5iron off that tee.....him? 3w,hydrid and wedge to 10 ft while I putted for a 5 with my second ball.......not clever


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 17, 2017)

Scozzy said:



			Its  highlighting what we all face...can you beat old man par? Millions of ways to do it,very useful to shift it right out there with the big dog however I still rue the SF of  club champs 3 yrs ago when I threw it away trying blow my opponent off the course with a huge length (and age!!)advantage over him.What happened? He was absolutely deadly with his wedge and putter,all of a sudden im spraying it everywhere,putting for halves and we went down 18 where I promptly hit a huuuge drive....out of bounds to hand him the tie! Shocking course management on my part and complete opposite on his..lesson? Know your game,I could of beat him with a 5iron off that tee.....him? 3w,hydrid and wedge to 10 ft while I putted for a 5 with my second ball.......not clever
		
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Totally agree. Absolutely hate getting drawn against any senior in a match or knockout. You know they won't hit it far, usually straight or no more than first cut and will usually be deadly from 100 yards and in. Add in the fact you're also usually given shots and it's a potent force to overcome. They know what they can and can't do, when to use their shots etc. In fact, I bet if you compared some of these older guys scores in medals and stablefords to a long hitting player who goes for it all the time, the strategist will have a far more consistent and better tally over a period of time


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## Coffey (Jan 17, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Totally agree. Absolutely hate getting drawn against any senior in a match or knockout. You know they won't hit it far, usually straight or no more than first cut and will usually be deadly from 100 yards and in. Add in the fact you're also usually given shots and it's a potent force to overcome. They know what they can and can't do, when to use their shots etc. In fact, I bet if you compared some of these older guys scores in medals and stablefords to a long hitting player who goes for it all the time, the strategist will have a far more consistent and better tally over a period of time
		
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Reminds me of our winter league.

Its pairs and my partner cant play golf. 

So it is basically up to me in our matches but its impossible to win as they are just so consistent. They never lose balls and hit almost every fairway, add that to the fact that I give them shots. I hit the ball well past them but they just get the ball to the green nice and easy and 1 putt it. 

They are very very consistent, unlikely have that very low round but will always be around their handicap.


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## garyinderry (Jan 17, 2017)

The thing is,

We dont play 72 hole stroke play comps.  4 decent rounds doesnt get you much. 

There is something to be said about being a little more aggressive with our approach to the game. 

Especially for handicap purposes.  An agressive player might pick up 2 .1s , a buffer and big cut from 4 games where as safe play might get 4 buffers. 

I tend to veer towards safe play. Definitely going to try for more agressive rounds this year. Its just finding the right balance and knowing when to go for it.


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## londonlewis (Jan 17, 2017)

I think good course management is important but the key to scoring well on any golf hole varies every time you play it. 
Some holes require accuracy, some don't. If you need to guarantee hitting the fairway on a tight hole, take something that guarantees that - for some it will still be driver, for some it will be an iron. 

I think playing every hole to leave yourself 150 for your 2nd shot, would suggest you are going to struggle to break 80. But if your aim is to break 90 or 100, then it's probably not a bad suggestion. 

Personally, I am more of a thinking man's golfer (i.e. use course management), than a grip it and rip it type player

*Personal example of how I play: *
I remember playing in a 4 ball at Farleigh golf course. We were on the Red loop 2nd, playing off the yellows (287 yard par 4). 

Player 1 (competitor) - driver off the tee, pushes it into the trees, lost ball. Hits a second shot and same result. 
Player 2 (competitor) - driver off the tee, duffs it in the rough on the left. Takes 2 to get out, 2 more to get on the green and 3 putts (high handicapper)
Player 3 (playing partner) - driver off the tee. Hits it into one of the bunkers in front of the green. 
Me - took an iron off the tee. Middle of the fairway. 

All three of them laughed a bit and player 1 said 'that's the most conservative tee shot I've ever seen'. 

My second shot - hit the green pin high, 8 feet from the hole. 
Playing partner - gets out of the bunker but leaves himself a big putt for birdie. He then leaves his birdie putt 7 feet short. He holed it for par.

Me - disappointing as I didn't sink the  birdie putt as it narrowly missed on the high side but I was by far the closest to walking off with a birdie and had the easiest of tap-ins for par. 

But if I was playing that course again - I can't say I would hit the same club off the tee. It might not call for it. I might be striping my driver so might go for it in off the tee


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 17, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I think good course management is important but the key to scoring well on any golf hole varies every time you play it. 
Some holes require accuracy, some don't. If you need to guarantee hitting the fairway on a tight hole, take something that guarantees that - for some it will still be driver, for some it will be an iron. 

I think playing every hole to leave yourself 150 for your 2nd shot, would suggest you are going to struggle to break 80. But if your aim is to break 90 or 100, then it's probably not a bad suggestion. 

Personally, I am more of a thinking man's golfer (i.e. use course management), than a grip it and rip it type player

*Personal example of how I play: *
I remember playing in a 4 ball at Farleigh golf course. We were on the Red loop 2nd, playing off the yellows (287 yard par 4). 

Player 1 (competitor) - driver off the tee, pushes it into the trees, lost ball. Hits a second shot and same result. 
Player 2 (competitor) - driver off the tee, duffs it in the rough on the left. Takes 2 to get out, 2 more to get on the green and 3 putts (high handicapper)
Player 3 (playing partner) - driver off the tee. Hits it into one of the bunkers in front of the green. 
Me - took an iron off the tee. Middle of the fairway. 

All three of them laughed a bit and player 1 said 'that's the most conservative tee shot I've ever seen'. 

My second shot - hit the green pin high, 8 feet from the hole. 
Playing partner - gets out of the bunker but leaves himself a big putt for birdie. He then leaves his birdie putt 7 feet short. He holed it for par.

Me - disappointing as I didn't sink the  birdie putt as it narrowly missed on the high side but I was by far the closest to walking off with a birdie and had the easiest of tap-ins for par. 

But if I was playing that course again - I can't say I would hit the same club off the tee. It might not call for it. I might be striping my driver so might go for it in off the tee
		
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Moral of the story.......player 3 needs to work on his putting?


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## MadAdey (Jan 17, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I think playing every hole to leave yourself 150 for your 2nd shot, would suggest you are going to struggle to break 80. But if your aim is to break 90 or 100, then it's probably not a bad suggestion.
		
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If you can't hit a green from 150 yards out then you are going to struggle to break 80. I don't mind being 150 yards out, easy 8i or a big 9i and I get very upset if it doesn't finish on the green with a decent run at a birdie. Low handicap golfers are pretty damn good from within 150 yards, so are happy to have a 150 shot in. I have strong preference to being 100 yards out as that's a nice 3/4 GW that I can be pretty damn accurate with, but more than happy to be left anywhere within 150 yards.

I play my 15th like that. Dogleft leg that I can aim to the middle of with a 3W leaving an 8i in. The other option is to take it tight to the corner with a driver and leave a PW or GW in. Money is on the 3W being sat nicely in the fairway, compared to risk catching the trees with a driver and being in the ditch or it bouncing out of bounds. So leave a wedge or an 8i, the low handicapper in me says leave the 8i as I'm pretty confident I can hit the green with that.


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## londonlewis (Jan 17, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Moral of the story.......player 3 needs to work on his putting?   

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his bunker play needs to get better. He should have been much closer for his birdie attempt.
But you are right. His 1st putt wasnt great


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## londonlewis (Jan 17, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			If you can't hit a green from 150 yards out then you are going to struggle to break 80. I don't mind being 150 yards out, easy 8i or a big 9i and I get very upset if it doesn't finish on the green with a decent run at a birdie. Low handicap golfers are pretty damn good from within 150 yards, so are happy to have a 150 shot in. I have strong preference to being 100 yards out as that's a nice 3/4 GW that I can be pretty damn accurate with, but more than happy to be left anywhere within 150 yards.

I play my 15th like that. Dogleft leg that I can aim to the middle of with a 3W leaving an 8i in. The other option is to take it tight to the corner with a driver and leave a PW or GW in. Money is on the 3W being sat nicely in the fairway, compared to risk catching the trees with a driver and being in the ditch or it bouncing out of bounds. So leave a wedge or an 8i, the low handicapper in me says leave the 8i as I'm pretty confident I can hit the green with that.
		
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If you can break 80, you aren't playing safe off every tee. 
But I do agree with you.


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## Region3 (Jan 17, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			If you can't hit a green from 150 yards out then you are going to struggle to break 80. I don't mind being 150 yards out, easy 8i or a big 9i and I get very upset if it doesn't finish on the green with a decent run at a birdie. Low handicap golfers are pretty damn good from within 150 yards, so are happy to have a 150 shot in. I have strong preference to being 100 yards out as that's a nice 3/4 GW that I can be pretty damn accurate with, but more than happy to be left anywhere within 150 yards.

I play my 15th like that. Dogleft leg that I can aim to the middle of with a 3W leaving an 8i in. The other option is to take it tight to the corner with a driver and leave a PW or GW in. Money is on the 3W being sat nicely in the fairway, compared to risk catching the trees with a driver and being in the ditch or it bouncing out of bounds. So leave a wedge or an 8i, the low handicapper in me says leave the 8i as I'm pretty confident I can hit the green with that.
		
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Out of curiosity, how many greens do you think you'd hit (and how far away from the hole is acceptable) if you were given a perfect lie 150 out.

Same question for 100yds.


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## Region3 (Jan 17, 2017)

badgermat said:



			From the sound of it he was referring to Mark Brodie's book Every Shot Counts.

This is based many thousands of amateur and professional game stats, and concludes (broadly) that as long as you're not actually out of bounds, regardless of whether you're in the rough, tees or fairway you'll score better if your drive is closer to the pin. And that the drive is the most important shot of any hole.

His stats drive a truck through the conventional wisdom that it's the short game that counts, and suggest that even the best pros are only marginally better than average players at putting.

I'm not sure he was taking my power-fade slice into consideration though 

bm
		
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I'm not saying you're wrong because I've not read the book, but I've played around with his strokes gained numbers and they show that the pro's score better from closer, provided they have a shot at the green.
The numbers from in trouble (behind trees, thick rough) are far worse.


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## Region3 (Jan 17, 2017)

I think you have to take each hole as it comes. You can't just choose a club based on the length of the hole.

We have 5 Par 4's under (or around) 350yds. 2 are driver every time because the trouble isn't bad enough not to. 1 is driver because it gets me past potential trouble. 1 is definitely not driver to stay short of the trouble. The last one will depend on the wind and how I'm feeling at the time.

The shortest of those is 310 and that's one of the holes I always hit driver on, but we have 4 Par 4's over holes 400yds that I will quite often hit 3 wood off the tee.

It's all about picking your spots.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 17, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			If you can break 80, you aren't playing safe off every tee. 
But I do agree with you.
		
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Not sure I understand that, breaking 80 doesn't require risk taking. All you do is just keep trying to give yourself opportunities.


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## jusme (Jan 17, 2017)

I find this a slightly strange thread. Surely no one can say that one approach is better than the other. You simply cannot make claims like that when the claim is, if indeed it is the claim, referring to how all golfers should play. Be it aggressive or conservative - neither is right or wrong for ALL players. One or the other may indeed be best for YOU, but that's as far as you can state a claim with any accuracy. 

You play the hole/shot in front of you, taking into consideration many factors, not least your skills and strengths. It is clear to me that longer hitters have more choices of the tee. I am not one of these and therefore will be driver of most tees. It is my only option mostly unless you are playing for bogey golf, which on some holes may indeed be the approach.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 17, 2017)

Region3 said:



			I'm not saying you're wrong because I've not read the book, but I've played around with his strokes gained numbers and they show that the pro's score better from closer, provided they have a shot at the green.
The numbers from in trouble (behind trees, thick rough) are far worse.
		
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But how many weekend players in shin high rough or a forest of trees possess the same skills as the pros to move the ball forward successfully enough to allow the next shot to be played and guarantee a bogey at worse. How often have you seen a PP scything away in long grass like it's harvest time. I think the argument is flawed although I haven't read the book and only going on my experiences


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## londonlewis (Jan 17, 2017)

harpo_72 said:



			Not sure I understand that, breaking 80 doesn't require risk taking. All you do is just keep trying to give yourself opportunities.
		
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in context of the thread 'playing safe means not hitting driver but going with an iron to always leave yourself a longer distance to the green that you are comfortable with'. I doubt many 7 handicappers exist that wouldn't have more confidence in their ability off the tee.


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## Region3 (Jan 17, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But how many weekend players in shin high rough or a forest of trees possess the same skills as the pros to move the ball forward successfully enough to allow the next shot to be played and guarantee a bogey at worse. How often have you seen a PP scything away in long grass like it's harvest time. I think the argument is flawed although I haven't read the book and only going on my experiences
		
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I said "provided they have a shot at the green". That doesn't include scything away in long grass.


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## MadAdey (Jan 17, 2017)

Region3 said:



			Out of curiosity, how many greens do you think you'd hit (and how far away from the hole is acceptable) if you were given a perfect lie 150 out.

Same question for 100yds.
		
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Of course I am going to have better success from 100 yards with an easy GW than 150 yards. What I was saying is that I've never seen a low handicapper that struggles with shots from 150 yards. Do you fear having a 150 yard shot left?


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## Region3 (Jan 17, 2017)

I don't fear it, but would certainly take the risk of going longer off the tee if the only downside was being in the rough for my 100yd approach.

I reckon I'd hit 5 or 6 out of 10 from 150, and would be happy with 25'.
From 100, even from the short rough, I'd say 7 or 8 out of 10 and a good result would be 15'.

I think I'd save more shots from being closer or on the green from the shorter distance than I'd lose from the odd wayward driver. Just depends what the downside of a bad driver is. Not all holes have the same importance of hitting the fairway.

Just my way of thinking, not saying anyone else is wrong.


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## MadAdey (Jan 18, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			If you can break 80, you aren't playing safe off every tee. 
But I do agree with you.
		
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But I am playing safe off every tee, by playing the correct shot, not the risky one. Many people said to me over the years that I'm the best 9 handicapper they've ever played against. Problem was they were wrong, I didn't play good golf. So 2 years ago I had a total change of approach to the game and stopped going for everything full bore. Thanks to that I knocked 6 shots off my handicap. I did this by evaluating my next shot better and trying to remove as much of the risk out of the shot as possible. 

IMO the trick to shooting really low scores is giving yourself the best chance to make them. This isn't done by taking reloads because you took on a stupid shot that ended up with a lost ball. If anyone thinks they are good enough to shoot in the low 70's but isn't comfortable with a mid iron, then they are going to have a problem. Don't be frightened to leave a longer shot if it means removing the risk from the tee shot and keep the round killing doubles from your card.


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## MadAdey (Jan 18, 2017)

Region3 said:



			I don't fear it, but would certainly take the risk of going longer off the tee if the only downside was being in the rough for my 100yd approach.

I reckon I'd hit 5 or 6 out of 10 from 150, and would be happy with 25'.
From 100, even from the short rough, I'd say 7 or 8 out of 10 and a good result would be 15'.

I think I'd save more shots from being closer or on the green from the shorter distance than I'd lose from the odd wayward driver. Just depends what the downside of a bad driver is. Not all holes have the same importance of hitting the fairway.

Just my way of thinking, not saying anyone else is wrong.
		
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This is where different players come into the equation. I've played with you enough to know that you are pretty damn straight off the tee, straighter than me so maybe what is a risky tee shot to me, isn't the same for you. But my strength lies in my iron play and would say that is probably the best part of my game. So for me, putting a ball in the fairway and leaving a mid iron in hand is more important than getting it out there for a shorter approach.


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## londonlewis (Jan 18, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			This is where different players come into the equation. I've played with you enough to know that you are pretty damn straight off the tee, straighter than me so maybe what is a risky tee shot to me, isn't the same for you. But my strength lies in my iron play and would say that is probably the best part of my game. So for me, putting a ball in the fairway and leaving a mid iron in hand is more important than getting it out there for a shorter approach.
		
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Different strokes for different folks!


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## MadAdey (Jan 18, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Different strokes for different folks!
		
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Exactly...........but I still do not agree with this crap about distance off the tee being more important than having your ball in play.


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## londonlewis (Jan 18, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			Exactly...........but I still do not agree with this crap about distance off the tee being more important than having your ball in play.
		
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You and I are the same on this topic. I'd rather have a straight forward shot with a 6 iron, than a hero shot with a wedge. 
But there's no single right way to play this game.


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## Nobadnomad (Jan 18, 2017)

Dasit said:



			A lot of studies show that what you lose from wayward drives you more than make up for it from being nearer the pin on the good ones.

If you are only hitting the fairway 3 out of 10 times maybe a driver lesson is needed, or a new more forgiving driver.



Quick question, if you hit a shot into a bunker at 100 yards from the pin which is ground under repair, and you can drop anywhere back from it in line with the pin, which is all fairway.

Do you walk 50 yards back and put the ball at 150 yards?
		
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A lot of studies?  Can you link to maybe 5 of these then?


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## TheDiablo (Jan 18, 2017)

Nobadnomad said:



			A lot of studies?  Can you link to maybe 5 of these then?
		
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Google Mark Broadie - Every Shot Counts. Most probably the most comprehensive statistical study into golf ever conducted. There's a reason the Major tours and almost all Pros use his method to analyse strengths, weaknesses and overall performance vs the field. Shows up the old 'drive for show putt for dough' to be completely flawed.

http://everyshotcounts.com/


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## Nobadnomad (Jan 18, 2017)

TheDiablo said:



			Google Mark Broadie - Every Shot Counts. Most probably the most comprehensive statistical study into golf ever conducted. There's a reason the Major tours and almost all Pros use his method to analyse strengths, weaknesses and overall performance vs the field. Shows up the old 'drive for show putt for dough' to be completely flawed.

http://everyshotcounts.com/

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  That will be one then


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## londonlewis (Jan 18, 2017)

Nobadnomad said:



			That will be one then
		
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you just need 4 more now...


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## Orikoru (Jan 18, 2017)

I already do this to be honest. My driver is hit and miss but my short irons are more consistent, so on a short par 4 I'll happily tee off with a 6 or 7 iron, then take an 8 or 9 or even another 7 iron for the second shot. No need for me to try and belt the thing as far as possible and increase the risk of sticking it left or right.


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## Region3 (Jan 18, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			Exactly...........but I still do not agree with this crap about distance off the tee being more important than having your ball in play.
		
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Do you disagree with Broadie, or this thread's interpretation of his study?


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## Region3 (Jan 18, 2017)

Orikoru said:



			I already do this to be honest. My driver is hit and miss but my short irons are more consistent, so on a short par 4 I'll happily tee off with a 6 or 7 iron, then take an 8 or 9 or even another 7 iron for the second shot. No need for me to *try and belt the thing as far as possible* and increase the risk of sticking it left or right.
		
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Have you ever tried swinging your driver as smoothly as you do a 6 or 7 iron?


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## garyinderry (Jan 18, 2017)

Exactly there s no need to be belting driver as hard as possible every time you take it out. 

A controlled driver often has less spin and in dry conditions runs out nearly as far as a full wack spinny high carry effort.


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## londonlewis (Jan 18, 2017)

TheDiablo said:



			Google Mark Broadie - Every Shot Counts. Most probably the most comprehensive statistical study into golf ever conducted. There's a reason the Major tours and almost all Pros use his method to analyse strengths, weaknesses and overall performance vs the field. Shows up the old 'drive for show putt for dough' to be completely flawed.

http://everyshotcounts.com/

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Bought this book today, hope it is good. Anyone read it yet?


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## garyinderry (Jan 18, 2017)

If using driver or any club for that matter. You must identify where is dead off the tee.  

Our first for example has a big clump of fir trees at around 220-240  15  yards off to the right of the fairway.  Behind or in them is dead.  The play here is to avoid this at all costs.  It is usually into the teeth of the wind so bang in play for most players.  

There is two holes running up and down to the left.  Plenty of smaller trees left but you need to be really unlucky to fond yourself dead tight up against them. It is an easy escape back on and simple wedge on. 

Even if you hook wildly off the first you end up on the 18th fairway.  

This is all preferable to going into these fir trees.  The amount of times people hit into them is ridiculous.  Myself included.  Not as often these days.  I've learnt my lesson. 

The same thing has to be identified on each tee. 

2nd - fairly safe.  Small trees either side. Easy escape.  Bang driver. 
3rd - Par 3 right is trouble.  Favour left miss. 
4 th - right is dead. Left isn't great.  Favour left.
5th - par 3 safe either side. 
6- right is dead. Lost ball material. Same on second shot. Lay up often called for. 
7 - right is dead. 
8-  par 3 safe both sides
9 - fir trees from 1 in play again. Catches shorter hitters as only 210 to carry usually downwind.  Favour left. 

10 - tight hole.  You won't see me with driver here ever.  Oob right and water left.  Lay up with iron short of water and sometimes hybrid in, usually 7. 
11 - left dead
12 - let her rip
13 - par 3 favour right
14 Oob all the way up 450 yards up hill to dogleg on par 5. Favour adjacent hole. 
15 - OOB all down right of par 4. Favour left. Pull onto adjacent hole. Anything preferable to knocking over fence and Oob. 
16- tight short par 4. Fairly safe unless its a real offline one.  Use anything your comfortable with all the way to driver. Don't need to murder it.
17 - 18 - let the big dog eat. 

This is my guide.  The no go is a must.  The other side is usually ok and if you miss that side of fairway its a simple enough recovery.


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## Orikoru (Jan 18, 2017)

Orikoru said:



			I already do this to be honest. My driver is hit and miss but my short irons are more consistent, so on a short par 4 I'll happily tee off with a 6 or 7 iron, then take an 8 or 9 or even another 7 iron for the second shot. No need for me to try and belt the thing as far as possible and increase the risk of sticking it left or right.
		
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Region3 said:



			Have you ever tried swinging your driver as smoothly as you do a 6 or 7 iron?
		
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Was just a figure of speech really!  I don't actually go for a mad thumping swing, and I don't have a long drive either - only about 230 yards. I just meant that for me it's either (a) take a driver, trying and leave myself a short chip on, but maybe only 6/10 drives go where I want them, or (b) take a mid iron, leave 150 yards to the flag, but more like 8/10 of my mid and short irons will go where I want, so the success rate is higher.

Basically, I get where the topic-starter is coming from.


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## TheDiablo (Jan 18, 2017)

Nobadnomad said:



			That will be one then
		
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If want to ignore what is by far the most scientific golf analysis, one used by the very best players, coaches and biggest Tours then be my guest - No skin off my nose! 

Some people still believe the earth is flat or that the universe was created in 6 days...


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## Scozzy (Jan 18, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Bought this book today, hope it is good. Anyone read it yet?
		
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Its a great read for all golf nerds with a dizzying amount of stats that reinforce,to my mind anyway,what our US friends love in general...a good stat&#128512; That being that going long off the tee as possible can only be good,with stats to match of course! 
For me however it lacks a human element and as the level of golfer heads towards "average" you need to take those stats with a grain of salt but for pros and very low markers I can see why they would love it if you can get your head around it all! It's basic premise is hit it  long and hit it close so putting isn't such an issue........

my course has the same "wee burn" meandering though the course in front of three greens at about 10 yds from front of green(s).......all offer chance to go long off the tee(two are par 5s) and all three are in top ten stroke index and grab your attention.One way or other you obviously need to clear the water on all 3..... do you get as close as possible and take on a tricky little wedge shot all the while not hitting your approach or your chip into the water OR go easy off the tee and leave a full (comfortable?)wedge/short iron into green hopefully!? taking water out of play? Personal choice based on your own game,conditions,lie etc and how you feel on the day,hard for a book to quantify that but no doubt a worthwhile read.


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## Craigg (Jan 18, 2017)

I try my best not to leave myself a fiddly little 50/60 yarder.  Much more comfortable and dare I say, accurate,  with a full 8 iron.


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## MadAdey (Jan 18, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Not sure why you are getting so worked up and using loaded examples to make your point.


No one is saying use your driver for every par 4 or par 5.



There is clear evidence that distance is more important than accuracy. Doesn't mean shooting the ball off the planet, just means dropping your FiR down a few percent so your average approach is less.
		
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So going on your theory I should use everything I have in the locker. I can actually show you if  you do not believe how far I can hit the ball, I have the stats from when I got fitted for my driver and I just gave one of the swings 100%, it was out at 330 yards. But I normally swing well within myself and keep it at around the 280 mark as this gives me better accuracy.



TheDiablo said:



			Google Mark Broadie - Every Shot Counts. Most probably the most comprehensive statistical study into golf ever conducted. There's a reason the Major tours and almost all Pros use his method to analyse strengths, weaknesses and overall performance vs the field. Shows up the old 'drive for show putt for dough' to be completely flawed.

http://everyshotcounts.com/

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TheDiablo said:



			If want to ignore what is by far the most scientific golf analysis, one used by the very best players, coaches and biggest Tours then be my guest - No skin off my nose! 

Some people still believe the earth is flat or that the universe was created in 6 days...
		
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I have been reading some reviews and what I read is that people are using his theories to analyze stats, not to prove that hitting it as far as you can all the time will lower your scores.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 18, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			So going on your theory I should use everything I have in the locker. I can actually show you if  you do not believe how far I can hit the ball, I have the stats from when I got fitted for my driver and I just gave one of the swings 100%, it was out at 330 yards. But I normally swing well within myself and keep it at around the 280 mark as this gives me better accuracy.


This is true Addey hits a long ball I still have a picture on my phone where he knobs his drive about 30 yards level with the ladies tee at Woodhall Spa

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## MadAdey (Jan 18, 2017)

pokerjoke said:





MadAdey said:



			So going on your theory I should use everything I have in the locker. I can actually show you if  you do not believe how far I can hit the ball, I have the stats from when I got fitted for my driver and I just gave one of the swings 100%, it was out at 330 yards. But I normally swing well within myself and keep it at around the 280 mark as this gives me better accuracy.


This is true Addey hits a long ball I still have a picture on my phone where he knobs his drive about 30 yards level with the ladies tee at Woodhall Spa

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Thanks Tony, some moments on the course are best left there &#128557;
		
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## MadAdey (Jan 18, 2017)

Region3 said:



			Do you disagree with Broadie, or this thread's interpretation of his study?
		
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More with the interpretation to be honest. I do not believe for one minute that tour players and top coaches believe that always trying to get it down the hole as far as you can will reward you with better scores.


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## Region3 (Jan 18, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			More with the interpretation to be honest. I do not believe for one minute that tour players and top coaches believe that always trying to get it down the hole as far as you can will reward you with better scores.
		
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Like I mentioned before, I have done some work with the numbers and will try to find them and give examples.

To be honest I'm still reeling that you said I was straight off the tee. :rofl:


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## badgermat (Jan 18, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			More with the interpretation to be honest. I do not believe for one minute that tour players and top coaches believe that always trying to get it down the hole as far as you can will reward you with better scores.
		
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I don't think Brodie's point is that driving as far as you can will always score better. More that if you want to reduce your _overall score _- across a game or series of games - the most efficient way to do it is by focusing on the long game rather than the short game, and on driving in particular.

This is based on the stats suggesting that putting efficiency is overwhelmingly a factor of proximity to the pin, and proximity to the pin is similarly a function of proximity to the green. 

i.e. most players putt more accurately from 1 metre than 6, and it's easier to land the ball 1 metre from the pin if they hit from 50 metres than if they hit from 150 metres.  

Since this is based entirely on a statistical analysis, there are two fairly major caveats to this.

First that you have to consider the environments in which the stats were gathered. In Brodie's case it was predominantly from the US, where typical courses may well be rather different from the UK (I suspect more open and where the most punishing rough is more likely to be marked as OOB and therefore excluded from his conclusion).

Second is that any statistcally-based analysis looks at performance over many games, and there can easily be exceptions - many exceptions, even - that don't significantly alter the overall probabilities.

As humans we are wired to remember exceptions rather than the norm, and to focus on the extreme (extremely good or extremely bad). As such we tend to give exceptions considerably greater value than they actually deserve.

bm


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## Dasit (Jan 18, 2017)

Playing safe and short you can beat your handicap

But playing safe and short you are not going to be in the running for too many big competitions at your club

GiRs are very important, and being short off the tee makes it so much harder to hit them.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Playing safe and short you can beat your handicap

But playing safe and short you are not going to be in the running for too many big competitions at your club
		
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 Can you explain why last Sunday I shot 73 on a 6400 yard course by keeping it in play rather than maximizing distance off every tee? Out of 14 holes (excluding par 3s) I hit 7 drivers, 4 3woods, 1 19* rescue and 2 4 irons. All of those were by choice and I could have hit more club if I wanted, but chose accuracy over distance. A couple of those choices left me with 160 yard shots. Would I have shot lower if I had used the driver more? Possibly, but if I had used the driver I could have dropped more shots. 2 of my bogeys actually came on holes where I did hit driver. If you want the take putts into account I had 2 that rilled over the edge of the hole and another that finished an inch short.

Looking at my last couple of rounds I can't see how hitting my driver more would have lowered my score. But if a couple of putts that run over the edge of the hole had dropped I would have shot lower.


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## Imurg (Jan 19, 2017)

Lots of ways to score well but the basic start should be to drive as far as possible while keeping the ball in play.
And that will vary on every hole and by your ability.
Anything that gets you on the fairway or first cut but as far as your ability allows gives you chances to score.
Placement is key as well.
What use is a 300 yard drive if it leaves you on the fairway but tight up against some trees so you can only punt sideways?
You have to play each hole as you see it but, to score, you have to keep the ball in play - simples.
Long isn't always best - neither is short...


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## badgermat (Jan 19, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			2 of my bogeys actually came on holes where I did hit driver. If you want the take putts into account I had 2 that rilled over the edge of the hole and another that finished an inch short.
		
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Two strokes lost to the driver, three to the putter. The very essence of Brodie's theory 

bm


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## Beezerk (Jan 19, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			Can you explain why last Sunday I shot 73 on a 6400 yard course by keeping it in play rather than maximizing distance off every tee? Out of 14 holes (excluding par 3s) I hit 7 drivers, 4 3woods, 1 19* rescue and 2 4 irons. All of those were by choice and I could have hit more club if I wanted, but chose accuracy over distance. A couple of those choices left me with 160 yard shots. Would I have shot lower if I had used the driver more? Possibly, but if I had used the driver I could have dropped more shots. 2 of my bogeys actually came on holes where I did hit driver. If you want the take putts into account I had 2 that rilled over the edge of the hole and another that finished an inch short.

Looking at my last couple of rounds I can't see how hitting my driver more would have lowered my score. But if a couple of putts that run over the edge of the hole had dropped I would have shot lower.
		
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What do you play off mate? Looking by your score you're low single figures maybe. 
Your plan is fine for someone of your ability,  but leaving a long 2nd shot for someone with average to high handicap brings in another set of problems. Missing the green by miles, bunkers, oob etc. Kind of catch 22 for me in particular who can't hit anything over a 6 iron with much accuracy.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2017)

badgermat said:



			Two strokes lost to the driver, three to the putter. The very essence of Brodie's theory 

bm
		
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But I thought that Brodie's theory was that it's the long game that matters and the closer you get to the green the better you will score. I dropped 2 shots with drives into the rough, but dropped 3 shots on the green. I lost more shots with the putter than the driver, am I interpreting wrong, what people are saying about his theory.


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## badgermat (Jan 19, 2017)

Unless I've completely misunderstood (entirely possible, I admit), Brodie's theory is that you lose less to poor drives (two in your case) than you do to poor putts (three in your case).

That said, I was being facetious.

bm


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## Region3 (Jan 19, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			But I thought that Brodie's theory was that it's the long game that matters and the closer you get to the green the better you will score. I dropped 2 shots with drives into the rough, but dropped 3 shots on the green. I lost more shots with the putter than the driver, am I interpreting wrong, what people are saying about his theory.
		
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More interesting would be if you could break down your score vs par for the distances you hit your approach shots from.

So maybe:

Under 100yds : -1
100-150 : +1
150-200 : 0
200+ : +1

Something like that?


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2017)

Region3 said:



			More interesting would be if you could break down your score vs par for the distances you hit your approach shots from.

So maybe:

Under 100yds : -1
100-150 : +1
150-200 : 0
200+ : +1

Something like that?
		
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Sounds like an idea, I'll do that just for arguments sake. I'll work it out and post it, might be interesting reading. 

I'm not against any new theories on how to lower scores, after all that is what we are trying to do.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2017)

Region3 said:



			More interesting would be if you could break down your score vs par for the distances you hit your approach shots from.

So maybe:

Under 100yds : -1
100-150 : +1
150-200 : 0
200+ : +1

Something like that?
		
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Ran through and this is what I got:

Under 100yds: 1 birdie, 4 pars, 1 bogey = 0
100-150: 3 pars, 2 bogeys = +2
150-200: 1 birdie, 4 pars, = -1
200+: 2 pars, =0

Not sure what this shows, but it would be interesting to know how this theory on how to improve can be applied to this.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 20, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			Ran through and this is what I got:

Under 100yds: 1 birdie, 4 pars, 1 bogey = 0
100-150: 3 pars, 2 bogeys = +2
150-200: 1 birdie, 4 pars, = -1
200+: 2 pars, =0

Not sure what this shows, but it would be interesting to know how this theory on how to improve can be applied to this.
		
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To me it looks like you know your game well.
You scored better with a full shot to the green with clubs you're comfortable with. Of course, the shots under 100 yards could have been from rough or behind trees? As with all stats, they can prove and disprove most things. 
From reading your posts id say stick to what you do as it works best for you.


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## MadAdey (Jan 20, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			To me it looks like you know your game well.
You scored better with a full shot to the green with clubs you're comfortable with. Of course, the shots under 100 yards could have been from rough or behind trees? As with all stats, they can prove and disprove most things. 
From reading your posts id say stick to what you do as it works best for you.
		
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Looking back, maybe there is some merit in this mans theories. I might have got the wrong end of the stick when people started talking about distance is more important than accuracy and that by taking driver every hole will help you shoot lower scores. 

In that round i didn't knock in any long putts and had 3 that would have gone in on another day. 

I have spent a lot of time evaluating my game over the last couple of years as I always knew I had the length, the iron play and the putting to shoot lower scores, but never did it regularly. I've already said that one of the biggest changes I made was leaving the driver in the bag and using my strong approach play and putting to make the scores.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 20, 2017)

MadAdey said:



			Looking back, maybe there is some merit in this mans theories. I might have got the wrong end of the stick when people started talking about distance is more important than accuracy and that by taking driver every hole will help you shoot lower scores. 

In that round i didn't knock in any long putts and had 3 that would have gone in on another day. 

I have spent a lot of time evaluating my game over the last couple of years as I always knew I had the length, the iron play and the putting to shoot lower scores, but never did it regularly. I've already said that one of the biggest changes I made was leaving the driver in the bag and using my strong approach play and putting to make the scores.
		
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Hard to say from the outside. But I think you clearly know your game well enough to self evaluate. If I felt comfortable enough to leave myself 130 ever time then that would be my intention as a full pw is probabaly my most consistent shot. 

That at being said, I think at my level (approx 15), using driver is the sensible option as I can mess up with anything on the tee so at least when I hit it well I'll be closer to the pin.

i think there is merit in both approaches, and the better you become the more you can choose your approach.


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## Fish (Jan 20, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Playing safe and short you can beat your handicap

But playing safe and short you are not going to be in the running for too many big competitions at your club

GiRs are very important, and being short off the tee makes it so much harder to hit them.
		
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Totally disagree with this and it's hugely 'contradictory'. 

I've won and played well under my handicap with a 3w off the tees as I didn't use a driver for over 2 years!

So I was predominately short & safe off the tee but playing under handicap and anything under handicap puts you in the winning enclosure! 

GIR's are not very important if you have a good short game, I shot my first sub 80 off the back stones with no driver in the bag so generally instead of going for long approach shots into the green I deliberately play up 1 club short of the green side bunkers leaving anything from 30-80 to the pin leaving good short par putt opportunities which should at worse be only a bogey, I'm not looking for birdies, pars will do for me so this philosophy will not be any good for low single figure handicaps as they look for birdies like I look for pars. 

My putting stats are excellent but their false because I deliberately don't go for quite a few greens in regulation because the risk of missing them is too great, chipping close to the pin off the fairway means I down a lot of single puts for at least 6 holes per round. 

My pro has me looking at holes in reverse asking me what ideally I'd like left to the pin or green, so if I can't make that distance with a driver off the tee and if it brings too much trouble into play I'll drop down so I'm short & safe but then play short of the green and more times than not they will or can be par holes. 

I don't think there's a single ideal answer as we all have different strengths and weaknesses, so I'll play to mine which is not getting overly concerned about hitting GIR and I think another 3 shots off my handicap this coming season will underline that approach.


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## Smiffy (Jan 20, 2017)

I play the game for fun.
Where's the fun in consistency???
I love visiting trees occasionaly.
He who dares Rodney, he who dares....


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## jusme (Jan 21, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I play the game for fun.
Where's the fun in consistency???
I love visiting trees occasionaly.
He who dares Rodney, he who dares....
		
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I can relate this to this a lot more than I can most of the responses on here. For me scoring is the least important factor when I hit a golf course. My intention is to enjoy myself and I get so much more pleasure out of shot making and shot quality. I never think about the score or how best to get the ball round for a lower score. I enjoy good ball striking and if I hit the shot/ball well then my day is a good one. Give me good ball striking and poor scoring all day long than a lower score with a bit of luck here and there. Of course a good score can come of good ball striking but not always and this simply does not matter to me. 

Before someone feels the need to point it out, I do of course understand that for a lot of golfers if not most, scoring is the primary goal. Just not for me


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## Smiffy (Jan 21, 2017)

I would get a lot more pleasure in playing a dramatic recovery shot from under a tree or out of the rough than I would hitting repetitive 8 irons from the middle of the fairway....


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## timhowe (Jan 30, 2017)

Why does everyone on this thread compare them selves with a PRO...WE are not (Well most of us). All Im doing is trying to improve me game and become a lot more consisant and thus enjoying the game a lot more...!!!


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## louise_a (Jan 30, 2017)

due to lack of length I find that I am nearly always hitting a wood for my second shot around my home course, so being on the fairway is very important to me, even if I hit a long drive it only makes a difference on a couple of holes.


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