# Nobody knows the rules!



## Maninblack4612 (Feb 24, 2014)

Amazing how many people, me included, don't know all the rules. 

Here are two common breaches I've witnessed recently. One competitor (4 handicap team player) on par 3 tee "I've got a 5 iron, what do you think?" Other competitor (single figures) "I'm taking a 6". Two stroke penalty to each.

Player hit his tee shot miles right. Two fellow competitors immediately shout "That's exactly where you were aiming!" Whoops, 2 stroke pen.

And how many people time the search for a lost ball properly? Not many.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Amazing how many people, me included, don't know all the rules. 

Here are two common breaches I've witnessed recently. One competitor (4 handicap team player) on par 3 tee "I've got a 5 iron, what do you think?" Other competitor (single figures) "I'm taking a 6". Two stroke penalty to each.

Player hit his tee shot miles right. Two fellow competitors immediately shout "That's exactly where you were aiming!" Whoops, 2 stroke pen.

And how many people time the search for a lost ball properly? Not many.
		
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The first bit (club advice) - yup - stupid people.  The second - telling him that that was where he was aiming - don't think so.  Advise him of his misalignment BEFORE he hits - then yes. Penalty.


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## chris661 (Feb 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The first bit (club advice) - yup - stupid people.  The second - telling him that that was where he was aiming - don't think so.  Advise him of his misalignment BEFORE he hits - then yes. Penalty.
		
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so it is amazing the number if folk that don't know the rules :rofl:

again this is moved as it isn't a question about rules more a discussion.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The first bit (club advice) - yup - stupid people.  The second - telling him that that was where he was aiming - don't think so.  Advise him of his misalignment BEFORE he hits - then yes. Penalty.
		
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I always thought if you are playing in a team event as original quote you can give team members advice ?     Whats the rule for 4bbb partners on the tee as to clubbing advice / playing out of turn  etc the rules differ in team events like medal and match play?


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The first bit (club advice) - yup - stupid people.  The second - telling him that that was where he was aiming - don't think so.  Advise him of his misalignment BEFORE he hits - then yes. Penalty.
		
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Both are breaches of the rules because the advice on aim has a bearing on the way he hits his shots for the rest of the round.


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## CMAC (Feb 24, 2014)

I dont know anyone in their profession that knows every rule and (law) inside out and thats their source of income, so it's quite understandable imo that we dont know all the rules for a pass time hobby.


I understand where the OP is coming from though as basic rules should be ingrained for experienced players


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## Slab (Feb 24, 2014)

chris661 said:



			so it is amazing the number if folk that don't know the rules :rofl:

*again this is moved as it isn't a question about rules more a discussion*.
		
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Your call but it does say that the Rules forum is : _*A place to discuss the Rules of Golf* and post questions and queries about the rules_ so not really the wrong place


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## guest100718 (Feb 24, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Amazing how many people, me included, don't know all the rules. 

Here are two common breaches I've witnessed recently. One competitor (4 handicap team player) on par 3 tee "I've got a 5 iron, what do you think?" Other competitor (single figures) "I'm taking a 6". Two stroke penalty to each.

Player hit his tee shot miles right. Two fellow competitors immediately shout "That's exactly where you were aiming!" Whoops, 2 stroke pen.

*And how many people time the search for a lost ball properly? Not many*.
		
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most people probably give up looking to early.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 24, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Both are breaches of the rules because the advice on aim has a bearing on the way he hits his shots for the rest of the round.
		
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Is it advice tho or just stating a fact , if he said  yea thats where you were aiming you might want to adjust your set up next time , then id class that as advice , id also think many of us break rules in chatting walking around without knowing .. i dont expect amateurs of our level to know all the rules , i also think if it comes to having to watch every thing we say in case its advice it will surely kill the game as an enjoyment

I think it probably comes under Chit Chat rather than advice tho , kinda like "take your time" in reply to "il finish out" when putting ..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Is it advice tho or just stating a fact , if he said  yea thats where you were aiming you might want to adjust your set up next time , then id class that as advice , id also think many of us break rules in chatting walking around without knowing .. i dont expect amateurs of our level to know all the rules , i also think if it comes to having to watch every thing we say in case its advice it will surely kill the game as an enjoyment

I think it probably comes under Chit Chat rather than advice tho , kinda like "take your time" in reply to "il finish out" when putting ..
		
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I might say to a FC who had just hammered his ball the wrong direction something like 'well you were aiming over there'. A statement of fact surely.  But to be honest I just think that's what I would do - I can't say for sure that I ever have - in a comp - though I'm guessing that I have.


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## USER1999 (Feb 24, 2014)

It is worth pointing out the aim thing, as looking for balls on every hole is wearing. Stuff the rules!


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## Alex1975 (Feb 24, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			It is worth pointing out the aim thing, as looking for balls on every hole is wearing. Stuff the rules!
		
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I am glad its been said... sometimes its just nice to be nice and nice to play some golf without silliness, right or wrong.


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Amazing how many people, me included, don't know all the rules. 

Here are two common breaches I've witnessed recently. One competitor (4 handicap team player) on par 3 tee "I've got a 5 iron, what do you think?" Other competitor (single figures) "I'm taking a 6". Two stroke penalty to each.

Player hit his tee shot miles right. Two fellow competitors immediately shout "That's exactly where you were aiming!" Whoops, 2 stroke pen.

And how many people time the search for a lost ball properly? Not many.
		
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I am not convinced on number 2 either, as it did not influence the shot in question. Can you cite a decision of golf or other authoritative source?

Now if the player re-teed, and the FCs said, yep, you are doing it again, that is different and a penalty.


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## JustOne (Feb 24, 2014)

Slab said:



			Your call but it does say that the Rules forum is : _*A place to discuss the Rules of Golf* and post questions and queries about the rules_ so not really the wrong place
		
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I agree. This shouldn't be in the lounge IMO.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 24, 2014)

JustOne said:



			I agree. This shouldn't be in the lounge IMO.
		
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Is it not a discussion about people not knowing the rules rather than a actual rules question tho ? 

If the OP had asked what were the rules regarding the scenario he pointed out then yes its a rules question .. 

Doesnt bother me where it goes to be honest but i dont see it as an actual rule query


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## Alex1975 (Feb 24, 2014)

Deleted


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 24, 2014)

Have always found the first hard to police, especially when playing with friends in non-drawn comps.

I may be incorrect but I think you are able to say out loud to yourself "I can't believe a 5 went big there" or "Not sure if I can get there with a 6, I'm going to hit a 5". Played in many groups where this is done, not directly giving / asking for advice and FC can use/ignore the statement as they see fit.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

A player may ask for advice from his caddy or his team playing partner. You should not ask for or give advice to fellow competitors, unless it's a matter of public information such as the distance to the hole or the location of a bunker. See Rule 8-1.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			A player may ask for advice from his caddy or his team playing partner. You should not ask for or give advice to fellow competitors, unless it's a matter of public information such as the distance to the hole or the location of a bunker. See Rule 8-1.  

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If I spot a FC (not PP) misaligned before he has played his shot and I advise him of that - then penalty.  If I tell him after he has played that he was misaligned and leave it at that - statement of fact.  If I give him advice on what he could do next shot to correct his misalignment - advice - penalty.

Well that's how I differentiate.


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## woody69 (Feb 24, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Both are breaches of the rules because the advice on aim has a bearing on the way he hits his shots for the rest of the round.
		
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The 2nd is not a breach. You are giving a statement of fact, not advice.


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## fundy (Feb 24, 2014)

Great post from the OP, seems to have proved his point perfectly


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			I may be incorrect but I think you are able to say out loud to yourself "I can't believe a 5 went big there" or "Not sure if I can get there with a 6, I'm going to hit a 5". Played in many groups where this is done, not directly giving / asking for advice and FC can use/ignore the statement as they see fit.
		
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You are correct.

However, could well be a different story if the player said 'can't believe an 8 went long there' when he actually, knowingly, hit a 5!


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You are correct.

However, could well be a different story if the player said 'can't believe an 8 went long there' when he actually, knowingly, hit a 5!
		
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Correctamundo. But how do you prove that he didn't indeed hit an 8 without looking in his bag, which I'm sure must be a breach of rules too? 

One of those rules I think which requires some element of common sense, although I'm sure others would disagree and prefer no comments regarding clubs altogether.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Correctamundo. But how do you prove that he didn't indeed hit an 8 without looking in his bag, which I'm sure must be a breach of rules too?
		
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No, actually it isn't, as long as don't have to remove or disturb anything to look. See Decision 8-1/10.

Guess you guys ought to know the definition of 'Advice', which is:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			No, actually it isn't, as long as don't have to remove or disturb anything to look. See Decision 8-1/10.
		
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ha, I was actually going to say that if for example the person had iron headcovers on and the leather hood on his tour bag, but didn't think anybody would be that pedantic! I was wrong.


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Guess you guys ought to know the definition of 'Advice', which is:

"Advice" is any counsel or *suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play*, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the *position of hazards* or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.
		
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Surely there's going to be a lot of overlap here? 

If for example on the first hole there it water at 250 yards which player A drives over. Player B is new to the course and has never met Player A and asks how far that hazard is. If Player A responds by saying "about 210" which he knows is incorrect, and Player B then hits it into the drink, surely this is influencing and determining his play. 

As I said early, some of the rules with regards advice should mostly rely on common sense for 99% of golfers (those not playing for their livelihoods).


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			ha, I was actually going to say that if for example the person had iron headcovers on and the leather hood on his tour bag, but didn't think anybody would be that pedantic! I was wrong.
		
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Basically, anything you can reasonably see with your own eyes is not 'advice'.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Surely there's going to be a lot of overlap here? 

If for example on the first hole there it water at 250 yards which player A drives over. Player B is new to the course and has never met Player A and asks how far that hazard is. If Player A responds by saying "about 210" which he knows is incorrect, and Player B then hits it into the drink, surely this is influencing and determining his play. 

As I said early, some of the rules with regards advice should mostly rely on common sense for 99% of golfers (those not playing for their livelihoods).
		
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If another player asks you for a matter of public information, such as the distance to carry a water hazard, you are not obliged to give him an answer, but if you do it has to be trueful.


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## jimbob.someroo (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Basically, anything you can reasonably see with your own eyes is not 'advice'. 

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So in the case of someone with iron headcovers. Going way back the original thing I commented on, if you were to hit a 5 but say that you hit an 8 and there is no way the FC could tell, there's no penalty - it's just bad sportsmanship.



delc said:



			If another player asks you for a matter of public information, such as the distance to carry a water hazard, you are not obliged to give him an answer, but if you do it has to be trueful.  

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Again, it's bad sportsmanship but impossible to police. How do you *prove* somebody knows exactly how far a hazard is? Which brings me back to my point (again) about common sense. You can't penalise someone realistically for giving incorrect information because it's neigh on impossible to prove. Even with the first scenario, if someone sees what you really hit after you've declared it was an 8, you could claim you *thought* it was that club.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			So in the case of someone with iron headcovers. Going way back the original thing I commented on, if you were to hit a 5 but say that you hit an 8 and there is no way the FC could tell, there's no penalty - it's just bad sportsmanship.

Again, it's bad sportsmanship but impossible to police. How do you *prove* somebody knows exactly how far a hazard is? Which brings me back to my point (again) about common sense. You can't penalise someone realistically for giving incorrect information because it's neigh on impossible to prove. Even with the first scenario, if someone sees what you really hit after you've declared it was an 8, you could claim you *thought* it was that club.
		
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Giving deliberately misleading information to a fellow competitor is a breach of Rule 8-1, penalty 2 strokes in strokeplay and loss of hole in matchplay. OK, you may not know the exact distance to the nearest yard, but it should at least be approximately right. If you don't know, it's safer just to to say nothing.


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## Imurg (Feb 24, 2014)

On a Par 3, Fragger (amazingly) has the Honour.
He plays and hits the green.
I then play and hit the green.
As we walk down I say "I hit a 7 there, what did you take?"
He says" a 6".....

Any penalties...?


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

Imurg said:



			On a Par 3, Fragger (amazingly) has the Honour.
He plays and hits the green.
I then play and hit the green.
As we walk down I say "I hit a 7 there, what did you take?"
He says" a 6".....

Any penalties...?
		
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Nope!


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## cookelad (Feb 24, 2014)

Imurg said:



			On a Par 3, Fragger (amazingly) has the Honour.
He plays and hits the green.
I then play and hit the green.
As we walk down I say "I hit a 7 there, what did you take?"
He says" a 6".....

Any penalties...?
		
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I would guess that if you were playing the first 9 of 18 on a 9hole course then perhaps there would be!


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Basically, anything you can reasonably see with your own eyes is not 'advice'. 

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And plenty that you can't see too.

You can point out a line - over a specific point on the hill for example - or state that there are hazards etc. - even if they are not visible from the point of play.


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2014)

Imurg said:



			On a Par 3, Fragger (amazingly) has the Honour.
He plays and hits the green.
I then play and hit the green.
As we walk down I say "I hit a 7 there, what did you take?"
He says" a 6".....

Any penalties...?
		
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Apart from the humiliation of taking one club more than you, no.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 24, 2014)

Nope , but i suspect this is not as clear cut question as it may seem tho :angry:

bet your gona come back with something like you have a second par 3 the same distance or something aint you Ian ?


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			And plenty that you can't see too.

You can point out a line - over a specific point on the hill for example - or state that there are hazards etc. - even if they are not visible from the point of play.
		
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Again, that is information, not advice. I was referring to the case where a player looks into a fellow competitor's bag to see which club is missing while he plays his shot, which is not against the rules as long as you don't have to remove or disturb any bag or head covers, or towels draped over the bag. Likewise if he happens to see the number on the bottom of the club as the FC takes the club out of the bag or walks to the tee, that is also OK. What you can't do is ask which club he is about to play, or has just played, if it might influence your club selection or method of play.


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## Imurg (Feb 24, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Nope , but i suspect this is not as clear cut question as it may seem tho :angry:

bet your gona come back with something like you have a second par 3 the same distance or something aint you Ian ?
		
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Nope, Foxy got it first. No penalties, although cookelad may have a point if it's a 9 holed played take from the same tee...


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Again, that is information, not advice. I was referring to the case where a player looks into a fellow competitor's bag to see which club is missing while he plays his shot, which is not against the rules as long as you don't have to remove or disturb any bag or head covers, or towels draped over the bag. 

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I think the essential distinction is between facts and judgement. It is a fact that there is a pond behind that green or that it is 127 yards to the flag, but it is only a judgement or opinion that you should hit a 7 iron or play left of that tree.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think the essential distinction is between facts and judgement. It is a fact that there is a pond behind that green or that it is 127 yards to the flag, but it is only a judgement or opinion that you should hit a 7 iron or play left of that tree.
		
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I refer the Honorable Gentlemen back to the definition of advice that I have already given, and to Rule 8-1 and the related decisions.


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			I refer the Honorable Gentlemen back to the definition of advice that I have already given, and to Rule 8-1 and the related decisions. 

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Thanks, I have read the rules. I was trying to point out the underlying intent and distinction between public information and advice: one is verifiable, the other not.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The first bit (club advice) - yup - stupid people.  The second - telling him that that was where he was aiming - don't think so.  Advise him of his misalignment BEFORE he hits - then yes. Penalty.
		
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I think it's still against the rules ""Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke" a stroke i.e. any stroke in the further playing of the round. I'm going to run this past the R & A and report back.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I think the essential distinction is between facts and judgement. It is a fact that there is a pond behind that green or that it is 127 yards to the flag, but it is only a judgement or opinion that you should hit a 7 iron or play left of that tree.
		
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Agree about the 7-iron. But 'the line is left of that tree' is information, not advice. However 'with your slice, you should play left of that tree' IS advice! So, once again, the Rules are absolutely spot on! Advice is defined perfectly to differentiate between those situations. 

Too many folk try to interpret the Rules when the proper thing to do is apply them absolutely literally!


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Agree about the 7-iron. But 'the line is left of that tree' is information, not advice. However 'with your slice, you should play left of that tree' IS advice! So, once again, the Rules are absolutely spot on! Advice is defined perfectly to differentiate between those situations. 

Too many folk try to interpret the Rules when the proper thing to do is apply them absolutely literally!
		
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I meant the latter, although more like "with your awesome power ....."


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I think it's still against the rules ""Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke" a stroke i.e. any stroke in the further playing of the round. I'm going to run this past the R & A and report back.

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I'd back SILH in this one. Over-interpretation imo. If they meant 'a stroke, or any subsequent stroke', that's what they would have put! I agree that both 'a' and 'any' can be interpreted either way though. 

Same logic applies where there are Par 3s of same distance/clubbing. If you ask after both played at the first of them, then the answer would/could/should be considered advice for the second of them!


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Thanks, I have read the rules. I was trying to point out the underlying intent and distinction between public information and advice: one is verifiable, the other not.
		
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I'm glad somebody on this forum has actually read the rules of golf. You must be in a tiny minority, judging by some of the postings on here!


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## Dcross92 (Feb 24, 2014)

This is odd because everytime I play in a comp someone always asks me what club I am going with and the likes of and no one is ever penalised for this ruling. Would be shocked if someone called anyone up for any of the issues you raise at my club to be honest.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I'd back SILH in this one. Over-interpretation imo. If they meant 'a stroke, or any subsequent stroke', that's what they would have put! I agree that both 'a' and 'any' can be interpreted either way though. 

Same logic applies where there are Par 3s of same distance/clubbing. If you ask after both played at the first of them, then the answer would/could/should be considered advice for the second of them!
		
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I've queried it with the R & A and will post the response when I get it. If I'm wrong I'd like to know.


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2014)

In the late 60s or early 70s, Sam Snead was playing a practice round at Augusta with a young up and coming pro. They got to the 13th, and as the young buck was getting ready, Snead said, 'Son, when I was your age, we used to hit it right over the corner of those trees'. So young buck duly aimed there, and as the ball cracked off the club, Snead said '...course in those days they were 30 feet shorter'. Ball clattered into trees 10 feet from the top and was never seen again. 

So that was an example of bad and good advice mixed into one, bad because he shouldn't have taken the line, good because he learned a lesson in not being tempted into something.


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## chrisd (Feb 24, 2014)

Dcross92 said:



			This is odd because everytime I play in a comp someone always asks me what club I am going with and the likes of and no one is ever penalised for this ruling. Would be shocked if someone called anyone up for any of the issues you raise at my club to be honest.
		
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For me, this rule is an absolute basic of competition play. You simply can't ask someone what club they've used so that you can judge what to use yourself (or vice versa) If someone asks for a yardage I'm quite happy to Bushnell it for them as , being a question of fact, it tends to speed up their thought process and play. (Sorry SILH)


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## kozmos (Feb 24, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			most people probably give up looking to early.
		
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especially when the provisional goes straight up the middle, as always:mmm: , me I'll spend all day looking for my ball, would rather keep looking and wave the peeps behind through, not so much when it's another's ball though .


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## 6inchcup (Feb 24, 2014)

was it BEN HOGAN who had the numbers on his clubs changed so a 5 iron was marked 6 and a 2iron as a 4 so his opponents under or over clubbed when they looked into his bag for advice on what to take?


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## chrisd (Feb 24, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			was it BEN HOGAN who had the numbers on his clubs changed so a 5 iron was marked 6 and a 2iron as a 4 so his opponents under or over clubbed when they looked into his bag for advice on what to take?
		
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No, I think you'll find it's Taylor Made who stamp their clubs with a number less than it should be so that it appears that a crap golfer can hit an 8 iron 185 yards!


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I meant the latter, although more like "with your awesome power ....."
		
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So 'lay up short of the lake' on your 13th (off the Blacks mind) for me then! 

11 was easy! Made it with yards to spare!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

chrisd said:



			For me, this rule is an absolute basic of competition play. You simply can't ask someone what club they've used so that you can judge what to use yourself (or vice versa) If someone asks for a yardage I'm quite happy to Bushnell it for them as , being a question of fact, it tends to speed up their thought process and play. (Sorry SILH)
		
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No problems old chap - especially as I agree with and rather admire your contained 'astonishment' at the blatant breach of one of the basic rules of competitive golf - you just don't ask about the club another has used or is going to use.  And the fact that doing so is plainly common and accepted practice in some parts is frankly amazing.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

chrisd said:



			No, I think you'll find it's Taylor Made who stamp their clubs with a number less than it should be so that it appears that a crap golfer can hit an 8 iron 185 yards!
		
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I can't, even with under-lofted Taylor Made irons. I am a 67 year old veteran though. You now need about 5 wedges to make up a decently gapped set of irons, and 3 irons are about as impossible to hit as 1 irons used to be. I'm thinking that perhaps club manufacturers should be required by the powers that be to stamp an accurate number of degrees on their clubs, rather than meaningless numbers!  :mmm:


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## golfdub (Feb 24, 2014)

These are stupid rules and I can't see why someone would get wound up over this.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

kozmos said:



			especially when the provisional goes straight up the middle, as always:mmm: , me I'll spend all day looking for my ball, would rather keep looking and wave the peeps behind through, not so much when it's another's ball though .
		
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You are only allowed to search for a ball for 5 minutes!


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 24, 2014)

golfdub said:



			These are stupid rules and I can't see why someone would get wound up over this.
		
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Because it gives the person receiving the advice a real & unfair advantage.


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## chrisd (Feb 24, 2014)

golfdub said:



			These are stupid rules and I can't see why someone would get wound up over this.
		
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I wouldn't want to be diddled out of winning a competition be someone who wouldn't have won if his mate hadn't told him what clubs to hit all the way round!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2014)

yes - there's an idea.  Three ball in a comp.  Decide who the three of you are going to try and get to win.  First two try out different clubs and different types of shots or lines on the green prior to their man having a go having all the guidance from his buddies on club, line, length etc.  Rather obvious why it's not a stupid rule when you think about it.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			I'm thinking that perhaps club manufacturers should be required by the powers that be to stamp an accurate number of degrees on their clubs, rather than meaningless numbers!  :mmm:
		
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Scratch did that a few years ago.

Ryan Moore had a set with 5* steps rather than traditional 4* ones.

Back to numbers now though.


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## kozmos (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			You are only allowed to search for a ball for 5 minutes! 

Click to expand...

 which of course I will make a point of if need be :thup:


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## dontfancythisputt (Feb 24, 2014)

A situation that always gets me and one I have never found a definate answer to:

Individual stroke play comp:

Player A tees of into the sun, turns and asks the group "did anyone see it?"

Player B replies " yer its in the rough on the right"

Advice asked for? Advice given?

Player A then asks " should I hit a provisional? " 

Player C replies " yes, probably best as its bad over there"

Again advice asked for? Advice given?

In both cases I see how the replies could influence a players next shot. But never 100% sure. 

I guess if question on it id say first point is ok second point not so.


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## CMAC (Feb 24, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			A situation that always gets me and one I have never found a definate answer to:

Individual stroke play comp:

Player A tees of into the sun, turns and asks the group "did anyone see it?"

Player B replies " yer its in the rough on the right" *Fact*

Advice asked for? Advice given?

Player A then asks " should I hit a provisional? " *advice*

Player C replies " yes, probably best as its bad over there" *advice*

Again advice asked for? Advice given?

In both cases I see how the replies could influence a players next shot. But never 100% sure. 

I guess if question on it id say first point is ok second point not so.
		
Click to expand...

my thoughts as I see it without checking rules


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## JCW (Feb 24, 2014)

I don't ask what club they hit as everyone is different but sometimes you do get someone who hits it almost the same then I sneak a look at the club as he puts it back in the bag , if anyone ask me what club I just tell them l that its against the rules to do so . One rule that is often broken is standing directly behind the line of a putt to see the break as on the same line as your putt , you are not allowed to do this , you can stand at an angle and moved in behind the line after the putt is struck , I don't claim to know most of the rules but know enough to get by ...................................EYG


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 24, 2014)

CMAC said:



			my thoughts as I see it without checking rules
		
Click to expand...

I concur


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

JCW said:



			One rule that is often broken is standing directly behind the line of a putt to see the break as on the same line as your putt , you are not allowed to do this , you can stand at an angle and moved in behind the line after the putt is struck , I don't claim to know most of the rules but know enough to get by ...................................EYG
		
Click to expand...

Er. Wrong!

You are allowed, unless the player objects.

14-2b covers Caddies and Partners - anywhere btw.

It is however, covered in Etiquette and if the Player objects can ultimately result in a DQ by the 'offender'. If, however, the player does not object, there is no penalty - unlike if Caddie/Partner does it (2SP/LoH).

The standing to an angle, then moving to the line simply eliminates any potential etiquette objection, but is not a requirement.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			A situation that always gets me and one I have never found a definate answer to:

Individual stroke play comp:

Player A tees of into the sun, turns and asks the group "did anyone see it?"

Player B replies " yer its in the rough on the right"

Advice asked for? Advice given?

Player A then asks " should I hit a provisional? " 

Player C replies " yes, probably best as its bad over there"

Again advice asked for? Advice given?

In both cases I see how the replies could influence a players next shot. But never 100% sure. 

I guess if question on it id say first point is ok second point not so.
		
Click to expand...

I hate playing into the sun and I'm sure most on here. If my partner was going first I would be more than happy to spot for him and tell him where it had gone. I would hope they would do the same for me. Surely has to speed the game up rather than everyone wondering where the hell it went and hitting another (and another until they actually see one go).


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			A situation that always gets me and one I have never found a definate answer to:

Individual stroke play comp:

Player A tees of into the sun, turns and asks the group "did anyone see it?"

Player B replies " yer its in the rough on the right"

Advice asked for? Advice given?

Player A then asks " should I hit a provisional? " 

Player C replies " yes, probably best as its bad over there"

Again advice asked for? Advice given?

In both cases I see how the replies could influence a players next shot. But never 100% sure. 

I guess if question on it id say first point is ok second point not so.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe either of those are advice.

However, I'd phrase my C's statement differently. 'If you think it might be lost, then a Provisional makes sense' is my phrase.


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## JCW (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Er. Wrong!

You are allowed, unless the player objects.

14-2b covers Caddies and Partners - anywhere btw.

It is however, covered in Etiquette and if the Player objects can ultimately result in a DQ by the 'offender'. If, however, the player does not object, there is no penalty - unlike if Caddie/Partner does it (2SP/LoH).

The standing to an angle, then moving to the line simply eliminates any potential etiquette objection, but is not a requirement.
		
Click to expand...

If its allowed , explain to me why in the pro game the caddies always move away just before the pro makes the stroke , 4BBB matchplay or foursomes is ok granted , in medal it is not , you don't see the pros do it , maybe they do in your killing fields ..........


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

JCW said:



			If its allowed , explain to me why in the pro game the caddies always move away just before the pro makes the stroke , 4BBB matchplay or foursomes is ok granted , in medal it is not , you don't see the pros do it , maybe they do in your killing fields ..........

Click to expand...

They move away because they have good etiquette obviously.

I'm sure if it is against the rules to stand behind a putt of a FC you will be able to point out the relevant rule


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

JCW said:



			If its allowed , explain to me why in the pro game the caddies always move away just before the pro makes the stroke , 4BBB matchplay or foursomes is ok granted , in medal it is not , you don't see the pros do it , maybe they do in your killing fields ..........

Click to expand...

If you have a rule book or access to the R&A or USGA websites, check out rule 14-2b.  In fact, to make it easy for you, I'll copy it over:

b. Positioning of Caddie or Partner Behind Ball
A player must not make a stroke with his caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie positioned on or close to an extension of the line of play or line of putt behind the ball. 
Exception: There is no penalty if the playerâ€™s caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie is inadvertently located on or close to an extension of the line of play or line of putt behind the ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 14-1 or 14-2:
Match play â€“ Loss of hole; Stroke play â€“ Two strokes.

By the way, this does not apply to fellow competitors, who can stand where they like subject to good etiquette. The practice of a caddie lining up the player from behind the line of play and then moving away at the last moment seems to be more prevalent on the Ladies Tours and particularly for lady Korean players.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

JCW said:



			If its allowed , explain to me why in the pro game the caddies always move away just before the pro makes the stroke , 4BBB matchplay or foursomes is ok granted , in medal it is not , you don't see the pros do it , maybe they do in your killing fields ..........

Click to expand...

Read my post again - a little more carefully.

Caddies - covered by 14-2b

FC - Etiquette not a rule. No Penalty if player doesn't object.

Pros obey etiquette!

And not MY Killing Fields! You seem to be the one more likely to encourage them!


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Read my post again - a little more carefully.

Caddies - covered by 14-2b

FC - Etiquette not a rule. No Penalty if player doesn't object.

Pros obey etiquette!

And not MY Killing Fields! You seem to be the one more likely to encourage them!

Click to expand...

Rule 14-2b also applies to playing partners and their caddies! 

If a fellow competitor stands directly behind my line I would probably ask him to move as it is a bit distracting, but he incurs no penalties, except possibly for poor etiquette for a number of repeat offences, and neither do I.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Rule 14-2b also applies to playing partners and their caddies! 

If a fellow competitor stands directly behind my line I would probably ask him to move as it is a bit distracting, but he incurs no penalties, *except possibly for poor etiquette for a number of repeat offences*, and neither do I.  

Click to expand...

My Granny could suck eggs as well as Rosecott's probably could!

Though, given that it's not 'an offence' the bold bit makes no sense (on its own).


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Rule 14-2b also applies to playing partners and their caddies! 

If a fellow competitor stands directly behind my line I would probably ask him to move as it is a bit distracting, but he incurs no penalties, except possibly for poor etiquette for a number of repeat offences, and neither do I.  

Click to expand...


Do you read what other people have posted ?


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you read what other people have posted ?
		
Click to expand...

Just trying to clarify the rule.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Just trying to clarify the rule.  

Click to expand...

Well you didn't! At least not the FC side of it (the Etiquette).


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			Just trying to clarify the rule.  

Click to expand...


And failed !


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Well you didn't! At least not the FC side of it (the Etiquette).
		
Click to expand...

In that case I'll try again. Players must not play a shot when their caddie, playing partner, or playing partner's caddie are standing on or close to the line of play or line of putt, behind the ball. To do so incurs a 2-shot penalty in strokeplay or loss of hole in matchplay. 

Fellow competitors can stand where they like, subject to good etiquette, It is not good etiquette to stand close to or behind a player's line of play, but there is no penalty as such for doing so.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

delc said:



			In that case I'll try again.
		
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No! don't bother.  Your explanation is better, but still incomplete.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2014)

I already had! Under Rule 33-7 a committee can disqualify a player for a serious breach of etiquette, but that is the only sanction I can find in the rules. See also decision 33-7/8, which I have copied out below: 

"A serious breach of etiquette is behaviour by a player that shows a significant disregard for an aspect of the Etiquette Section, such as intentionally distracting another player or intentionally offending someone. 
Although a Committee may disqualify a player under Rule 33-7 for a single act that it considers to be a serious breach of etiquette, in most cases it is recommended that such a penalty should be imposed only in the event of a further serious breach.
Ultimately, the application of a penalty for a serious breach of etiquette under Rule 33-7 is at the discretion of the Committee."


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## EarCat (Feb 24, 2014)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I can't be only poster here who thinks that the majority of the rules of golf are just stupid, golf should be simple to referee, it game in which players put the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots, not a game where you can be penalised for saying certain things, for accidentally moving your ball 1/16 of an inch while addressing it or fixing a great big spike mark that is in your line. Is it any wonder golf is decreasing in popularity? The more rules added to golf, the less fun it becomes for golfers[/FONT]


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## Crow (Feb 24, 2014)

EarCat said:



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I can't be only poster here who thinks that the majority of the rules of golf are just stupid, golf should be simple to referee, it game in which players put the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots, not a game where you can be penalised for saying certain things, for accidentally moving your ball 1/16 of an inch while addressing it or fixing a great big spike mark that is in your line. Is it any wonder golf is decreasing in popularity? The more rules added to golf, the less fun it becomes for golfers[/FONT]
		
Click to expand...

It sounds good when you say it quickly but sit down with a rule book, take a look at each rule and imagine the situation, what would you suggest in its place?

I've done this and have come to the conclusion that the rules of golf have to be extensive to cover for all the possible situations that can arise in a sport that has an almost infinite number of variables.


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## CliveW (Feb 24, 2014)

EarCat said:



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I can't be only poster here who thinks that the majority of the rules of golf are just stupid, golf should be simple to referee, it game in which players put the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots, not a game where you can be penalised for saying certain things, for accidentally moving your ball 1/16 of an inch while addressing it or fixing a great big spike mark that is in your line. Is it any wonder golf is decreasing in popularity? The more rules added to golf, the less fun it becomes for golfers[/FONT]
		
Click to expand...

The R&A are currently reviewing The Rules of Golf with a view to simplifying them and making them easier to understand. Unfortunately this will probably happen until the the 2020 edition.

There is a quote inside the front page of the current rule book which states *"Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair. But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf." *


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 24, 2014)

EarCat said:



I can't be only poster here who thinks that the majority of the rules of golf are just stupid, golf should be simple to referee, it game in which players put the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots, not a game where you can be penalised for saying certain things, for accidentally moving your ball 1/16 of an inch while addressing it or fixing a great big spike mark that is in your line. Is it any wonder golf is decreasing in popularity? The more rules added to golf, the less fun it becomes for golfers

Click to expand...

Agree some rules seem daft .       asking what club a scratch golfer hit would not help the average 28 h/capper as they play the same sport but not the same game?                  But if you moved your ball 1/16th of an inch everytime you addressed it would look a little careless  bad lie becomes better.            The problem is there are to many cheats in the game and the rules are needed to stop them taking the Michael.              I am sure the original thread asked about advice clubbing in a team event what is the rule in a 4 man team as they are not fellow competitors but partners .


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

For several hundred years, there were no Rules - everybody just did what was 'proper'.

Then Edinburgh Council got involved! :rofl:

There were only 13 Rules originally - and a couple of those were specific to Leith Links.

But as circumstances have evolved, so the Rules have had to. The number of situations where some sort of ruling is required has expanded considerably.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 24, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Amazing how many people, me included, don't know all the rules. 

Here are two common breaches I've witnessed recently. One competitor (4 handicap team player) on par 3 tee "I've got a 5 iron, what do you think?" Other competitor (single figures) "I'm taking a 6". Two stroke penalty to each.

Player hit his tee shot miles right. Two fellow competitors immediately shout "That's exactly where you were aiming!" Whoops, 2 stroke pen.

And how many people time the search for a lost ball properly? Not many.
		
Click to expand...

When you say  "4 h/cap team player " does this mean he is playing in a 4 man team event ?    If so I always thought you could give partners advice ?    as they are team members not fellow competitors.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

clubchamp98 said:



			When you say  "4 h/cap team player " does this mean he is playing in a 4 man team event ?    If so I always thought you could give partners advice ?    as they are team members not fellow competitors.
		
Click to expand...

I read it that he was/is a 4 handicapper and plays in the Club Team.


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

CliveW said:



			The R&A are currently reviewing The Rules of Golf with a view to simplifying them and making them easier to understand. Unfortunately this will probably happen until the the 2020 edition.

There is a quote inside the front page of the current rule book which states *"Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair. But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf." *

Click to expand...

Most of the rules you really need to know are on the R&A Rules of Golf mobile phone app, and this includes a simple guide to the game.


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## CliveW (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Most of the rules you really need to know are on the R&A Rules of Golf mobile phone app, and this includes a simple guide to the game.  

Click to expand...

All the rules of Amateur Status are on the app


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

CliveW said:



			All the rules of Amateur Status are on the app
		
Click to expand...

Just what you need to know during a club medal competition!


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 25, 2014)

In an effort to simplify the rules for the general club player, how about a GM post/ article listing the 10 or 20 basic/ most important rules need to play in your club comps....


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I read it that he was/is a 4 handicapper and plays in the Club Team.
		
Click to expand...

Correct!


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## JCW (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Just trying to clarify the rule.  

Click to expand...

We all know you are ,but its just pointless as whatever you post or quote they come back with another angle to suit their argument , just move on mate . life is a learning curve


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			We all know you are ,but its just pointless as whatever you post or quote they come back with another angle to suit their argument , just move on mate . life is a learning curve
		
Click to expand...

Or, he could get the rule right while clarifying it. Just a thought?


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Or, he could get the rule right while clarifying it. Just a thought?
		
Click to expand...

On at least one occasion I quoted directly from the rules of golf. How right do I need to be? :mmm:


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 25, 2014)

is it just me or DelC is back and we're back in groundhog day again.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			On at least one occasion I quoted directly from the rules of golf. How right do I need to be? :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Maybe if you'd done that the first time, you wouldn't have needed to keep clarifying


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			On at least one occasion I quoted directly from the rules of golf. How right do I need to be? :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

And on more than one occasion, the matter had been resolved some time before you posted - rules quoted or not!


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I read it that he was/is a 4 handicapper and plays in the Club Team.
		
Click to expand...

Does NOT say club team just" 4 h/cap team player" that could mean he plays rugby or in the club snooker team .   You don't get a 4 h/cap from playing in teams.             But goes on to say competitors so cant be a team event .      This is part of the problem with the rules if you don't get the question worded right you can get lots of differing interpretations


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

clubchamp98 said:



			Does NOT say club team just" 4 h/cap team player" that could mean he plays rugby or in the club snooker team .   You don't get a 4 h/cap from playing in teams.             But goes on to say competitors so cant be a team event .      This is part of the problem with the rules if you don't get the question worded right you can get lots of differing interpretations
		
Click to expand...

Check post 95!

And you have demonstrated the real issue.

It's not a problem with the Rules; it's a problem with (the) interpretation, or the question. Find the appropriate Rule(s), read it literally - no interpretation, no problem!


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 25, 2014)

need_my_wedge said:



			In an effort to simplify the rules for the general club player, how about a GM post/ article listing the 10 or 20 basic/ most important rules need to play in your club comps....
		
Click to expand...

Or how about people take the time to find out for themselves by looking at the R&A website, this is what you want I believe...

http://shop.randa.org/shop/productfiles/2102 Quick Guide.pdf


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## Region3 (Feb 25, 2014)

I recently learnt about the 'standing behind the line of putt' rule. I specifically looked it up because we had a Texas Scramble coming up and I wanted to know if we were allowed to stand behind the putt to watch the line. Obviously we weren't allowed to, but the rules don't prohibit team members (4BBB etc) from watching the line of the putt from the other side of the hole, which is what we did.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Check post 95!

And you have demonstrated the real issue.

It's not a problem with the Rules; it's a problem with (the) interpretation, or the question. Find the appropriate Rule(s), read it literally - no interpretation, no problem!
		
Click to expand...

just checked post 95 but check post 1 it still does not say club team player he could be the team leader in work and as such is known as a "team player"


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

clubchamp98 said:



			just checked post 95 but check post 1 it still does not say club team player he could be the team leader in work and as such is known as a "team player"
		
Click to expand...

True. But beyond even my levels of pedantry.

OP was slightly ambiguous;You raised a query; I posted how I'd interpreted the ambiguity; that interpretation was confirmed as correct; end-of


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

I had an interesting rules dispute last year. I was playing in a strokeplay competition with 2 higher handicappers (20+).  After pitching onto a green I wanted to clean my ball. I had mislaid my magnetic marker somewhere, so marked the ball by sticking a tee peg into the green behind it.  Immediately one of the 20+ handicappers stormed over and said "That's a penalty for testing the green." I explained that it wasn't, and asked how one was supposed to repair a pitch mark without sticking a pitch mark repairer into the green. But he was still adamant and called the other player over who backed him up. So I said "OK record two scores and we'll sort it out with the committee afterwards".  Needless to say both the club pro and the committee backed me, but the urban myth that you can't mark a ball with a tee peg on the green seems to be a surprisingly common one.


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## Slab (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			I had an interesting rules dispute last year. I was playing in a strokeplay competition with 2 higher handicappers (20+).  After pitching onto a green I wanted to clean my ball. I had mislaid my magnetic marker somewhere, so marked the ball by sticking a tee peg into the green behind it.  Immediately *one of the 20+ handicappers stormed over* and said "That's a penalty for testing the green." I explained that it wasn't, and asked how one was supposed to repair a pitch mark without sticking a pitch mark repairer into the green. But he was still adamant and called the other player over who backed him up. So I said "OK record two scores and we'll sort it out with the committee afterwards".  Needless to say both the club pro and the committee backed me, but the urban myth that you can't mark a ball with a tee peg on the green seems to be a surprisingly common one.
		
Click to expand...

Count yourself lucky, folks can go their whole life without seeing someone actually 'storm' somewhere, especially rare on a golf course too


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			I had an interesting rules dispute last year. I was playing in a strokeplay competition with 2 higher handicappers (20+).  After pitching onto a green I wanted to clean my ball. I had mislaid my magnetic marker somewhere, so marked the ball by sticking a tee peg into the green behind it.  Immediately one of the 20+ handicappers stormed over and said "That's a penalty for testing the green." I explained that it wasn't, and asked how one was supposed to repair a pitch mark without sticking a pitch mark repairer into the green. But he was still adamant and called the other player over who backed him up. So I said "OK record two scores and we'll sort it out with the committee afterwards".  Needless to say both the club pro and the committee backed me, but the urban myth that you can't mark a ball with a tee peg on the green seems to be a surprisingly common one.
		
Click to expand...

Another Golf Course myth where a wager of a tenner into the Captain's Charity (and a Beer/Coffee) sorts things out! Likewise what you can use as a Marker - Brian Barnes's Beer Can  for example, or a club.

I trust you 'fessed up and called a Penalty on yourself when you found the marker attached to your Putter - after you had putted out!


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			True. But beyond even my levels of pedantry.

OP was slightly ambiguous;You raised a query; I posted how I'd interpreted the ambiguity; that interpretation was confirmed as correct; end-of
		
Click to expand...

Its amazing how pedantic I can be when I have nothing to do. But if OP is going to cite other players he should at least get the facts right.


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## G1BB0 (Feb 25, 2014)

hmmmm its not like we are playing for a million dollars or a tour card. I think we know when someone is blatantly breaking rules and when its just amatuers exchanging views. My PP/FC might say thats a 5 iron for you (hypothetically) i still have to choose the line and make the right swing/connection on it.

One reason why I gave up playing comps every week.

 I remember when I had my 3 iron in from messing about on the range, realised halfway down the 1st in a comp as it meant 15 clubs so blobbed the hole and quickly ran and put it in the car whilst they played the hole out, blobbed the next cos I was still knackered from running.

I am sure we all break rules at some point unintentionally but as long as we play fair and in good spirits then surely all is good in the grand scheme of things?


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## backwoodsman (Feb 26, 2014)

A bit of ignorance and or latitude is sort of ok in friendlies. But ever since an FC told me I hadn't scored a three because I was offside, I've been a stickler for accuracy.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 26, 2014)

clubchamp98 said:



			Its amazing how pedantic I can be when I have nothing to do. But if OP is going to cite other players he should at least get the facts right.
		
Click to expand...

I think most people understood what I meant & I have clarified it.


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			hmmmm its not like we are playing for a million dollars or a tour card. I think we know when someone is blatantly breaking rules and when its just amatuers exchanging views. My PP/FC might say thats a 5 iron for you (hypothetically) i still have to choose the line and make the right swing/connection on it.

One reason why I gave up playing comps every week.

* I remember when I had my 3 iron in from messing about on the range, realised halfway down the 1st in a comp as it meant 15 clubs so blobbed the hole and quickly ran and put it in the car whilst they played the hole out, blobbed the next cos I was still knackered from running.
*
I am sure we all break rules at some point unintentionally but as long as we play fair and in good spirits then surely all is good in the grand scheme of things?
		
Click to expand...

Well, knowing that it was a penalty was fine. But if you had known slightly more (or not been disoriented by the discovery!) you would have known that you only needed to declare it 'out of play' and didn't need to rush to/from the car! So a couple of points 'lost' from not knowing the Rules?


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## mcbroon (Feb 26, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			For several hundred years, there were no Rules - everybody just did what was 'proper'.

*Then Edinburgh Council got involved! :rofl:
*
There were only 13 Rules originally - and a couple of those were specific to Leith Links.

But as circumstances have evolved, so the Rules have had to. The number of situations where some sort of ruling is required has expanded considerably.
		
Click to expand...

If that's the case, I'm surprised the rules ever got finished.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 26, 2014)

mcbroon said:



			If that's the case, I'm surprised the rules ever got finished.
		
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Are they finished?


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## mcbroon (Feb 26, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Are they finished?
		
Click to expand...


Fair point. Edinburgh Cooncil strikes again.


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

mcbroon said:



			If that's the case, I'm surprised the rules ever got finished.
		
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That was my point!

And, given that most of those playing at the time (1774) were Military or Legal folk, I'm surprised there weren't more battles (physical, vocal and documents) too! Just shows how 'unifying' the game was! The small book about the history of THCEG is well worth a read!


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## stevelev (Feb 28, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I've queried it with the R & A and will post the response when I get it. If I'm wrong I'd like to know.
		
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Do you have a response yet?  Be good to know the related rule and decision


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 28, 2014)

stevelev said:



			Do you have a response yet?  Be good to know the related rule and decision
		
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Not yet.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 28, 2014)

Dcross92 said:



			This is odd because everytime I play in a comp someone always asks me what club I am going with and the likes of and no one is ever penalised for this ruling. Would be shocked if someone called anyone up for any of the issues you raise at my club to be honest.
		
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It rarely happens with lower handicap players, who tend to know the rules better, but in club comps I'm regularly asked what club I hit by FCs. It's usually someone holding a 3 wood or driver even though I've just hit a seven iron and they're never going to base their selection on mine; it's pure interest rather than seeking any information to help them. 

I always tell them that they're not allowed to ask and I'm not allowed to tell them..... but, rightly or wrongly, I'm never going to apply a penalty to their score for an innocent, harmless mistake like that. My hope is that eventually everyone will learn not to ask!


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 28, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			It rarely happens with lower handicap players, who tend to know the rules better, but in club comps I'm regularly asked what club I hit by FCs. It's usually someone holding a 3 wood or driver even though I've just hit a seven iron and they're never going to base their selection on mine; it's pure interest rather than seeking any information to help them. 

I always tell them that they're not allowed to ask and I'm not allowed to tell them..... but, rightly or wrongly, I'm never going to apply a penalty to their score for an innocent, harmless mistake like that. My hope is that eventually everyone will learn not to ask!
		
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Aside from the fact it's against the rules, I really don't see the obsession with knowing what club people hit. It's not like the lofts are the same or they know how well or hard you hit it. In fact, most of the time it has no relevance to their shot whatsoever.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			It rarely happens with lower handicap players, who tend to know the rules better, but in club comps I'm regularly asked what club I hit by FCs. It's usually someone holding a 3 wood or driver even though I've just hit a seven iron and they're never going to base their selection on mine; it's pure interest rather than seeking any information to help them.
		
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There's an argument for interpreting that (your) incident as not 'asking for advice'! Which is obviously the way you have - otherwise you would, in fairness to the rest of the field, be obliged to apply the Penalty in the same way as recognising they have 15 Clubs in their bag! If you didn't you'd be guilty of agreeing to waive a Rule, the penalty for which is DQ! See the dilemna the question raises?

I got round it, the only time I've been asked in a Comp situation, a slightly different way, but still a bit 'dodgy'.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			There's an argument for interpreting that (your) incident as not 'asking for advice'! Which is obviously the way you have - otherwise you would, in fairness to the rest of the field, be obliged to apply the Penalty in the same way as recognising they have 15 Clubs in their bag! If you didn't you'd be guilty of agreeing to waive a Rule, the penalty for which is DQ! See the dilemna the question raises?

I got round it, the only time I've been asked in a Comp situation, a slightly different way, but still a bit 'dodgy'.
		
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In those terms, you're right, it's really not "asking for advice" and I don't think that's what they're doing but it's a subtle distinction! I've tried to think of a better way to express this, and failed so please forgive the ridiculousness of what I'm about to write..... It's generally asked by short-hitting high handicap ladies in an "awestruck" sort of way....

Go on then.... how did you get round it?


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			In those terms, you're right, it's really not "asking for advice" and I don't think that's what they're doing but it's a subtle distinction! I've tried to think of a better way to express this, and failed so please forgive the ridiculousness of what I'm about to write..... It's generally asked by short-hitting high handicap ladies in an "awestruck" sort of way....

Go on then.... how did you get round it?
		
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Well, I could never be accused of being 'too big a hitter'! But it did seem to be puzzlement rather than looking for advice. I was 'nurse-maiding' him in his first Comp and simply hushed him and pointed him to the Tee, as it was his turn to play, then explained it after he had hit. For subsequent nurse-maiding - I did quite a bit, as I ran most of the comps so went out in last group - it was something I stressed (to not do) before the round. As I posted, a bit dodgy, but as there was never any adice given and he went straight to the Tee.....


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## cookelad (Feb 28, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			In those terms, you're right, it's really not "asking for advice" and I don't think that's what they're doing but it's a subtle distinction! I've tried to think of a better way to express this, and failed so please forgive the ridiculousness of what I'm about to write..... It's generally asked by short-hitting high handicap ladies in an "awestruck" sort of way....

Go on then.... how did you get round it?
		
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Not ridiculous at all, I've spent most of my golfing life being the youngest in the group, sometimes in excess of 50 years difference, and as you say they're not soliciting advice they're looking to be "impressed" (I know I have to open both doors to get my ego through) I normally tell them after they've hit theirs and we're walking towards the green just to avoid anybody feeling the need to give out penalties. Even though, as you say, them knowing I've just hit a wedge while they've got a 3 wood out is hardly going to be of any use to them!


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 28, 2014)

cookelad said:



			Not ridiculous at all, I've spent most of my golfing life being the youngest in the group, sometimes in excess of 50 years difference, and as you say they're not soliciting advice they're looking to be "impressed" (I know I have to open both doors to get my ego through) I normally tell them after they've hit theirs and we're walking towards the green just to avoid anybody feeling the need to give out penalties. Even though, as you say, them knowing I've just hit a wedge while they've got a 3 wood out is hardly going to be of any use to them!
		
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Yeah agreed, I always tell them but only after they've played.


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## rosecott (Feb 28, 2014)

Dcross92 said:



			This is odd because everytime I play in a comp someone always asks me what club I am going with and the likes of and no one is ever penalised for this ruling. Would be shocked if someone called anyone up for any of the issues you raise at my club to be honest.
		
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Shocked at having to play to the rules?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

rosecott said:



			Shocked at having to play to the rules?
		
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Would appear so.


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## palindromicbob (Mar 1, 2014)

If you want to avoid anyone asking and aren't bothered about them knowing just get into the habit of keeping the sole of your club on show.


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## Colin L (Mar 1, 2014)

Phew! Just come across this thread and skimmed through it for the first time.  Apologies if I've overlooked them, but I don't see conclusions to these issues that cropped up :

_If two players say what clubs they have just used at a Par 3 , would it be advice  if a) there were another hole of the same length  still to be played or b) were it the first time of playing that hole on an 18-hole round on a 9 hole course?_  In neither case would it be advice.  See Decision 8-1/6.

_If you suggest another player should play a provisional ball,  is that  advice? _  No


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## Colin L (Mar 1, 2014)

Drat!  Just spent so long writing an edit to the above post that I got timed out and lost all the text.   

I suggest taking care with the idea  in some posts  that something said  is not advice if it is a statement of fact.  Answering the question "What club did you take" with "A 6 iron" is a question and answer about fact.  What matters is whether it could influence your play.  Said before the event, it's advice; after you've both played, it's not.  But it's a statement of fact whatever.

I'm inclined to see the remark about hitting the ball where you were aiming as advice as it could influence your later play.  If that were said to you after an offline drive, what could be going through your mind on the next tee.  I'm sure I'd be thinking,  "I must take more  care with my alignment and not do what i did last time" as a consequence of what I'd been told.


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 1, 2014)

Colin L;1010628

I'm inclined to see the remark about hitting the ball where you were aiming as advice as it could influence your later play.  If that were said to you after an offline drive said:
			
		


			That's my view but I'm still waiting for my answer from the R & A
		
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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 15, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Amazing how many people, me included, don't know all the rules. 

Here are two common breaches I've witnessed recently. One competitor (4 handicap team player) on par 3 tee "I've got a 5 iron, what do you think?" Other competitor (single figures) "I'm taking a 6". Two stroke penalty to each.

*Player hit his tee shot miles right. Two fellow competitors immediately shout "That's exactly where you were aiming!" Whoops, 2 stroke pen.*
And how many people time the search for a lost ball properly? Not many.
		
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I queried this with the R & A ages ago then sent them a reminder. They said they are "dealing with it" I don't think they know the answer!


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2014)

Colin L said:



			Drat!  Just spent so long writing an edit to the above post that I got timed out and lost all the text.   

I suggest taking care with the idea  in some posts  that something said  is not advice if it is a statement of fact.  Answering the question "What club did you take" with "A 6 iron" is a question and answer about fact.  What matters is whether it could influence your play.  Said before the event, it's advice; after you've both played, it's not.  But it's a statement of fact whatever.

I'm inclined to see the remark about hitting the ball where you were aiming as advice as it could influence your later play.  If that were said to you after an offline drive, what could be going through your mind on the next tee.  I'm sure I'd be thinking,  "I must take more  care with my alignment and not do what i did last time" as a consequence of what I'd been told.
		
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This approach is somewhat inconsistent with Decision 8-1/6 - asking what club used at a previous hole (*not* a breach). And, indeed, asking what club a person used after you've both played, could also influence your later play!


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 15, 2014)

Colin L said:



			I'm inclined to see the remark about hitting the ball where you were aiming as advice as it could influence your later play.  If that were said to you after an offline drive, what could be going through your mind on the next tee.  I'm sure I'd be thinking,  "I must take more  care with my alignment and not do what i did last time" as a consequence of what I'd been told.
		
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Foxholer said:



			This approach is somewhat inconsistent with Decision 8-1/6 - asking what club used at a previous hole (*not* a breach). And, indeed, asking what club a person used after you've both played, could also influence your later play!
		
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Tend to favour Colin's view here. Especially if the first drive went OOB or a provisional was played. Player would have the opportunity to adjust his set up, hence the comment could directly influence his subsequent play.


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 15, 2014)

We'll see! I really don't know the answer, but it should be a matter of fact, not opinion.


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2014)

MashieNiblick said:



			Tend to favour Colin's view here. Especially if the first drive went OOB or a provisional was played. Player would have the opportunity to adjust his set up, hence the comment could directly influence his subsequent play.
		
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Indeed, I was humming and haa-ing about how to phrase exactly that situation - and the equivalent from elsewhere on the course. If it was between playing the original and the provisional/S&D one, then Advice. If pointed out 'subsequently' then perhaps not - though I would still actually think it was.


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## Colin L (Mar 15, 2014)

Knowing what club your FC used at a previous hole does not assist later play because you are not going to be playing that shot again.  Knowing from your FC that your alignment was faulty could assist every single shot from there on in - apart  from your putts.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Mar 15, 2014)

It`s also a lot easier to keep your gob shut and say nowt and thus remove ANY doubt.
"Good shot" works well
Likewise "ooh unlucky"


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2014)

Colin L said:



			Knowing what club your FC used at a previous hole does not assist later play because you are not going to be playing that shot again.  Knowing from your FC that your alignment was faulty could assist every single shot from there on in - apart  from your putts.
		
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H'mm!

Why ask then?

Btw. I would think that it was the FC that got penalised, if anyone, for to spontaneous 'advice' - even if you had 'questioned' the reason for the result - as in '<expletive>! Why did i hit it there?!'.


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 17, 2014)

See title of thread. Looks like I don't know the rules either.

I got a reply from the R & A re my query as to whether a fellow competitor saying "That's exactly where you were aiming!" after an off line shot was advice. The R & A replied "In the same way as a player would not be penalised for casually making a comment regarding the club he had just played (see Decision 8-1/8), a player would not be penalised for making this type of casual comment."

So now we know.


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## Foxholer (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks for the effort MiB.

(Sort of) pleasing to know that my approach agrees with the ruling, so I don't believe I'll need to change any comments.

Important to note the word 'casual' though. And 8-1/6 (asking about club used on earlier hole) and 8-1/18 (before starting, asking someone who has finished about clubs on various holes) still feel a bit iffy too, but....


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## CliveW (Mar 17, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I got a reply from the R & A re my query
		
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How do you manage to get a ruling from the R&A? I queeried a decision and it took them over two weeks to reply saying 

_"Thank you for your e-mail of 25 February in which you raised a query on the Rules of Golf.

I regret to inform you that the Rules of Golf Committee cannot answer queries unless they are rendered in accordance with Rule 34-3 of the Rules of Golf (see below). If your query is re-submitted through an authorised representative of the Committee, or if you would confirm whether you are an authorised member of the Committee, the Rules of Golf Committee will be in a position to reply."_

I asked our pro who is a qualified referee with the R&A and the PGA, and he couldn't provide the answer. He then phoned John Parrimore who finally gave the ruling.


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## Colin L (Mar 17, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			See title of thread. Looks like I don't know the rules either.

I got a reply from the R & A re my query as to whether a fellow competitor saying "That's exactly where you were aiming!" after an off line shot was advice. The R & A replied "In the same way as a player would not be penalised for casually making a comment regarding the club he had just played (see Decision 8-1/8), a player would not be penalised for making this type of casual comment."

So now we know.
		
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Thanks for making the effort.  It's good to have clarity.

I can imagine circumstances in which the remark would clearly not be casual so it's useful to know the R&A see a difference.


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 17, 2014)

CliveW said:



			How do you manage to get a ruling from the R&A? I queeried a decision and it took them over two weeks to reply saying 

_"Thank you for your e-mail of 25 February in which you raised a query on the Rules of Golf.

I regret to inform you that the Rules of Golf Committee cannot answer queries unless they are rendered in accordance with Rule 34-3 of the Rules of Golf (see below). If your query is re-submitted through an authorised representative of the Committee, or if you would confirm whether you are an authorised member of the Committee, the Rules of Golf Committee will be in a position to reply."_

I asked our pro who is a qualified referee with the R&A and the PGA, and he couldn't provide the answer. He then phoned John Parrimore who finally gave the ruling.
		
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When you raise a query on the website the R & A give you the option of saying whether it was in a competition or just a general query. If you say the latter they will give you an answer. If it was in a competition they will only reply to an authorised representative of the club.


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## CliveW (Mar 17, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			When you raise a query on the website the R & A give you the option of saying whether it was in a competition or just a general query. If you say the latter they will give you an answer. If it was in a competition they will only reply to an authorised representative of the club.
		
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Thanks, I'll give that a try next time.


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## CMAC (Mar 18, 2014)

It's good to know common sense prevails and the R&A agree that stating an opinion that "you were aiming that way" is not advice.

We have all done it without any ulterior motive- I can see both sides but in this case I'm glad normality won.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2014)

CliveW said:



			How do you manage to get a ruling from the R&A? I queeried a decision and it took them over two weeks to reply.
		
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Can you imagine how many rule questions the R AND A get every day?
If you have a question on a ruling, you should first contact your pro. If he/she doesn't know or you're not happy with their answer, you can ask them to double check it with R AND A


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## Colin L (Mar 18, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Can you imagine how many rule questions the R AND A get every day?
If you have a question on a ruling, you should first contact your pro. If he/she doesn't know or you're not happy with their answer, you can ask them to double check it with R AND A
		
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Or post it in the  Golf Monthly rules forum!  Just a click away from here and you'll not go short of an accurate answer.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2014)

Colin L said:



			Or post it in the  Golf Monthly rules forum!  Just a click away from here and you'll not go short of an accurate answer.
		
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and 20 wrong answers.


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## Colin L (Mar 18, 2014)

Too harsh, Bob.  You mean various explorations of possibilities are ventured,  some of which are perhaps less helpful than others. 

Being like most internet forums, an anarchic place, the user just has to work out over a bit of time who to rely on.  I guess most do work it out.


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 18, 2014)

Interesting outcome.

Seems reasonable that the R&A see it as analogous to the situation in Decision 8-1/8. The reference to "casual" is important. 

Thinking about it the words "give advice" in the main Rule do imply intent as do "counsel or suggestion" in the definition as opposed to say referring to any _comment _that could "influence a player...."

If such a comment was intended as "advice" then, it would still be a breach as I interpret it.


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## chrisd (Mar 18, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Can you imagine how many rule questions the R AND A get every day?
If you have a question on a ruling, you should first contact your pro. If he/she doesn't know or you're not happy with their answer, you can ask them to double check it with R AND A
		
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To be honest Bob, our now ex Pro, cocked up several competitions by guessing rules of competition wrong and when I played with him he wasn't up to date with rule changes. Oh! and yes he had played some European Tour events!


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2014)

chrisd said:



			To be honest Bob, our now ex Pro, cocked up several competitions by guessing rules of competition wrong and when I played with him he wasn't up to date with rule changes. Oh! and yes he had played some European Tour events!
		
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No-one knows all the rules and I was taught on my course,* if you're not 100% sure, check with the book* or the decisions book.
And as I said, if you're still not happy, you can ask them to double check it with R & A. 
As with everything in this world, no-one's perfect.


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## Foxholer (Mar 18, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Can you imagine how many rule questions the R AND A get every day?
If you have a question on a ruling, you should first contact your pro. If he/she doesn't know or you're not happy with their answer, you can ask them to double check it with R AND A
		
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Nothing personal, but most Pros would not be high on my list of folk to go to for a definitive answer for questions like the one MiB asked the R&A about. My experience (a few instances and quite a few observations) is that they are wrong as often as anyone with similar experience. They are, however, a pretty good source of a Rule Book, though there's normally one in my bag anyway, and are probably a good place to start - though, as a 'breed' tend to be reluctant to say 'I don't know'!


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## chrisd (Mar 18, 2014)

bobmac said:



			No-one knows all the rules and I was taught on my course,* if you're not 100% sure, check with the book* or the decisions book.
And as I said, if you're still not happy, you can ask them to double check it with R & A. 
As with everything in this world, no-one's perfect.
		
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A golf friend of mine from India said that when he played back there his club sponsored 3 people to do the rules course and at least one was available, by phone or in person, to try and deal with queries as and when they occurred (if possible). Over here, it seems to me, anyone knowing a few more rules than most are almost treated like they are cheats. Another golf friend said the other day that he corrected a low handicapper on measuring for a drop and got the "oh! we've got a rules man here" but in a very derogatory way!


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## woody69 (Mar 18, 2014)

I'm surprised this took so long to get an answer that in my mind was fairly obvious anyway. I am not sure how saying to a FC, "that's where you were aiming" would ever be taken as advice unless the person about to hit the shot specifically asked, "am I aiming to the right" etc. If I had said that to a FC, how exactly would I benefit from it?


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## Foxholer (Mar 18, 2014)

bobmac said:



			No-one knows all the rules and I was taught on my course,* if you're not 100% sure, check with the book* or the decisions book.
And as I said, if you're still not happy, you can ask them to double check it with R & A. 
As with everything in this world, no-one's perfect.
		
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Problem is that simply giving/getting a Ruling makes most of those who query 'happy'. 

So how does anyone know that they should, or shouldn't, be happy with the Ruling a Pro, or anyone else for that matter, gives them.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Problem is that simply giving/getting a Ruling makes most of those who query 'happy'. 

So how does anyone know that they should, or shouldn't, be happy with the Ruling a Pro, or anyone else for that matter, gives them.
		
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Because the pro will be able to show the appropriate ruling in the rule book/decisions book. That's part of the reason the referees carry rule books with them in tournaments.
But if you'd rather ask the barman, feel free.


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## CliveW (Mar 18, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Can you imagine how many rule questions the R AND A get every day?
If you have a question on a ruling, you should first contact your pro. If he/she doesn't know or you're not happy with their answer, you can ask them to double check it with R AND A
		
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Before contacting the R & A, I did ask my pro, who as I stated earlier , is a qualified referee who has officiated in Ryder Cup matches, but he was unable to give a difinitive ruling.



Colin L said:



			Or post it in the  Golf Monthly rules forum!  Just a click away from here and you'll not go short of an accurate answer.
		
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The queery came from an answer given in this very forum!


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## Colin L (Mar 18, 2014)

CliveW said:



			The queery came from an answer given in this very forum!
		
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Was that the one about declaring a provisional ball where it took an answer from the R&A to persuade you that the knowledgeable answers you had been given were correct?


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 18, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I'm surprised this took so long to get an answer that in my mind was fairly obvious anyway. I am not sure how saying to a FC, "that's where you were aiming" would ever be taken as advice unless the person about to hit the shot specifically asked, "am I aiming to the right" etc. If I had said that to a FC, how exactly would I benefit from it?
		
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Because the fellow competitor may think "so that's why I'm hitting them all To the left, I thought  I was coming over the top, I'll try aiming further right from now on" You could say that he played the rest of the round with the benefit of that advice. It would not have been obvious to him and the "advice" could improve his play for every shot of the round from then on. Not clear cut in my view at all.


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## Foxholer (Mar 18, 2014)

Colin L said:





CliveW said:



			The queery came from an answer given in this very forum!
		
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Was that the one about declaring a provisional ball where it took an answer from the R&A to persuade you that the knowledgeable answers you had been given were correct?  

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There appears to be an opportunity in the Scottish economy for a 'Provider of Popcorn'!


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## Colin L (Mar 18, 2014)

Nah - too much competition from the politicians.


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## CliveW (Mar 18, 2014)

Colin L said:





Was that the one about declaring a provisional ball where it took an answer from the R&A to persuade you that the knowledgeable answers you had been given were correct?  

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It related to that post, but wasn't discussed. Rather than raise the thread again, I decided to seek advice from the R&A as I couldn't find a definitive ruling. I am not going to re-open the issue.


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## Maninblack4612 (Sep 4, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			See title of thread. Looks like I don't know the rules either.

I got a reply from the R & A re my query as to whether a fellow competitor saying "That's exactly where you were aiming!" after an off line shot was advice. The R & A replied "In the same way as a player would not be penalised for casually making a comment regarding the club he had just played (see Decision 8-1/8), a player would not be penalised for making this type of casual comment."

So now we know.
		
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For those who remember this thread, the R & A have changed their minds. 

Queried it again and the reply this time was "I have discussed your query below further with my colleagues and I have to admit that they are in agreement with you that this type of statement would constitute as being advice.  Going back to the principles in my previous e-mail below, saying to a player, â€˜you aimed too far leftâ€™, or â€˜thatâ€™s where you were aimingâ€™ is offering an opinion which could influence a player in his method of making a stroke and this would therefore be a breach of Rule 8-1.


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