# Getting Old - How worried are you and options?



## 3offTheTee (Dec 6, 2021)

Watched the Ed Ball’s programmes the other week and Panorama tonight. Nothing political here but getting old is something that affect us all. Cost is a major problem for  care in older age and for some of us it is closer than we think.

For us it is worrying as neither us have brothers nor sisters and 3 sons and family live in Spain,  Australia and New Zealand.

Have you thought about the potential problems and seeing the 3 programmes they are worrying times. Any thoughts?


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## williamalex1 (Dec 6, 2021)

I hope to pass away in my sleep after a good football result and a few brandies in the distant future . 
My wife is younger and in a lot better nick than me, but still couldn't cope looking after me physically and I wouldn't wish that on her. 
What will be will be.
I wouldn't make a good resident in a care home


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Watched the Ed Ball’s programmes the other week and Panorama tonight. Nothing political here but getting old is something that affect us all. Cost is a major problem for  care in older age and for some of us it is closer than we think.

For us it is worrying as neither us have brothers nor sisters and 3 sons and family live in Spain,  Australia and New Zealand.

Have you thought about the potential problems and seeing the 3 programmes they are worrying times. Any thoughts?
		
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One thing that's certain, worrying about it won't change anything.  People either have the wealth to see them through an expensive care home or they have to rely on the state, in many cases old age brings health issues like dementia where it's the family that can get more depressed than the elderly person.


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## jim8flog (Dec 6, 2021)

My wife needed constant care but we were lucky in that she stayed at home.

I look back at her care package and wonder if she would have got that in the current climate. The locals had to put up a special case to keep her at home because they total amount of hours and cost far exceeded what it would have cost to put her in to a nursing home. One of the big things for her was having to be put to bed at 8.30 at night at the age of 40 and not being got out of bed until 9am.

I live on my own and and it is something that worries me.


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2021)

I don’t worry about me. It will be whatever it is. However, I do worry about HID, assuming I go first. There’s lots of things she either can’t do, e.g. she’s not IT savvy, or won’t attempt.

If in later years we need help with cleaning the place, washing, ironing then we’ll find someone.

There’s a position on the committee at the bowls club called welfare officer, and there’s a core of members who get stuck in when people struggle. There’s a 93 year old member whose marbles are a bit rattly. He gets 2 visits a day. His meals are done for him, as is his cleaning. Any interaction with Spanish bureaucracy is covered. All at no cost to him.


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2021)

I'm more worried about not getting old.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2021)

One reason my wife has for considering a move to a Scotland is that, my side, we are a quite large, and very close and supportive family, and my wife gets on well with my cousins and their children. On my wife’s side she doesn’t have much in the way of close family - and certainly nothing down south where we are given our daughter could move anywhere in the country even though she is currently only a mile away. 

As we will almost certainly move from here in 5-7yrs time, were we to head north of the border she feels we’d have much more family support not that far away.  Of course there are reasons we might not move.  But yes…in respect of getting old, having family support not far away is a consideration high on our list of considerations.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			My wife needed constant care but we were lucky in that she stayed at home.

I look back at her care package and wonder if she would have got that in the current climate. The locals had to put up a special case to keep her at home because they total amount of hours and cost far exceeded what it would have cost to put her in to a nursing home. One of the big things for her was having to be put to bed at 8.30 at night at the age of 40 and not being got out of bed until 9am.

I live on my own and and it is something that worries me.

Serious question Jim. In what sense does being on your own worry you? My mum and Dad have 4 kids, me and me younger brother see my parents regular. My other two bother and sister not so and it upsets my parents. 
Stay safe Jim
		
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## williamalex1 (Dec 7, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One reason my wife has for considering a move to a Scotland is that, my side, we are a quite large, and very close and supportive family, and my wife gets on well with my cousins and their children. On my wife’s side she doesn’t have much in the way of close family - and certainly nothing down south where we are given our daughter could move anywhere in the country even though she is currently only a mile away.

As we will almost certainly move from here in 5-7yrs time, were we to head north of the border she feels we’d have much more family support not that far away.  Of course there are reasons we might not move.  But yes…in respect of getting old, having family support not far away is a consideration high on our list of considerations.
		
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Remember she'll need a big warm coat .


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2021)

A little worried as both parents dies in their early 70's. I do worry about getting old as HID and I don't have kids and so no-one to look after us or at least help. We both have com-morbidities which also nags away. Given my mental health isn't/hasn't been in a great place in the last 18 months it isn't something I try to dwell on. I need to look at my NHS pension and think about adding to the pot


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## jim8flog (Dec 7, 2021)

My son lives 150 miles away and although my daughter lives near me I really do not want her to feel responsible for my care. I know from experience just how much work that can involve and the emotional pressures that it also brings. I tried my hardest to keep both of them away from having to do any of the care for my wife.

Having been inside many care homes when my wife went in for me to have some respite I know I would never want to be in one, it is not the sort of life I would want . I see it as existing rather than living. My wife absolutely hated having to go in to one.

I also remember the resentment from my sister towards my brother and me as being the only one who lived close to our mum who did most of the caring in her dying weeks. We had managed to get her in to a hospice but she insisted on dying ay home.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

Personally it’s not something I worry about at all. I worked in the pits for 36 years and paid into pensions for 36 years. I have never been financially rich and never will be, unless Euro millions is kind to me. But I have been a millionaire when it comes to family. No one will convince me wealth is better than health. 
working in the medical centre at the pits taught me there is a shitty end of the stick. Life can be taken away in an instant. My golfing playing partners have seen that. I hope to leave this life full of memories and not dreams.
All that said, I really do feel for those that have no one. It is on a par with those that do have someone who have kids that don’t give a shit about visiting there elderly parents and grandparents.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 7, 2021)

The day when I can barely walk or wipe my own backside is the day I call it quits. I’m not worried, just worried it gets there too quickly. 
Would be nice if euthanasia would be legal by then in this country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Remember she'll need a big warm coat .
		
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Indeed…that being one of the reasons we might NOT move north of the border….in fact it’s the MAIN reason 🙄🥶


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## williamalex1 (Dec 7, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed…that being one of the reasons we might NOT move north of the border….in fact it’s the MAIN reason 🙄🥶
		
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Be a Snowbird.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Be a Snowbird.
		
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Not getting being a snowbird…🤔


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			The day when I can barely walk or wipe my own backside is the day I call it quits. I’m not worried, just worried it gets there too quickly.
Would be nice if euthanasia would be legal by then in this country.
		
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You aren't worried about next Thursday?


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2021)

I'm immortal  - I've been dying to say that 😁😁


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You aren't worried about next Thursday?
		
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No I could be dead by then.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not getting being a snowbird…🤔
		
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That's what Canadians call  their pensioners who go to Florida and stay over the winter months and return home in summer.


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## Ross61 (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not getting being a snowbird…🤔
		
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I think he means to fly south when the snow come

edit. Seems I posted too late


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not getting being a snowbird…🤔
		
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Spread your tiny wings and fly away 🙂


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## williamalex1 (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Spread your tiny wings and fly away 🙂
		
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Indeed a nice wee song by Anne Murray, Snowbird, I prefer her singing Can I have this Dance, was usually played as the last dance of the evening. I got a few lumbers to that song  in my younger days


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2021)

Ross61 said:



			I think he means to fly south when the snow come

edit. Seems I posted too late
		
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Now that is indeed Plan A - or is it Plan B?  Not sure.  Buy a place Embra/East Lothian way; and also have a little place/escape down where we are.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Now that is indeed Plan A - or is it Plan B?  Not sure.  Buy a place Embra/East Lothian way; and also have a little place/escape down where we are.
		
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Would you want to escape from Embra, if so its the wrong place for you, move somewhere that feels like being on holiday.


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## stefanovic (Dec 8, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Watched the Ed Ball’s programmes the other week and Panorama tonight. Nothing political here but *getting old is something that affect us all. *Cost is a major problem for  care in older age and for some of us it is closer than we think.
		
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Whether we make it into old age or not.
This is where I deploy Richard Dawkins.

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born.
The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia.
Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people.
In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here."

He intends to have this read at his funeral.
The quote is from the first chapter of his book Unweaving the Rainbow.


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## Brads (Dec 8, 2021)

Was thinking about this the other day. My old man died a few weeks back at 75 so I suppose that was the reason.

I'm 54 and have brutal tinnitus, arthritis in one foot, both hips and both hands, I have bulging discs and a back made from distilled pain, and glaucoma (in one eye, but no ones that lucky)

When I totted it up, I thought, sod it, I'm retiring at 55 and learning to play golf, I'll worry about it when I have to.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you want to escape from Embra, if so its the wrong place for you, move somewhere that feels like being on holiday.
		
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The escape would be to the place in the south in times of when the weather was too cold for my Mrs…which could be every month but June…


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2021)

When I need someone to do basic things for me it’s time to call it a day.
That’s no sort of life. For both sides!
My mum and dad both had dementia that does worry me.
I would like my care plan to have an opt out of this world clause in .
It’s criminal you can’t plan your own end on your own terms while you still have the capacity to do so.
I am sure that will come but not quite early enough to help thousands who would opt for it.


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## Brads (Dec 9, 2021)

My lads have been told to tie me to my motorbike and fire me into the sea.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 9, 2021)

Brads said:



			My lads have been told to tie me to my motorbike and fire me into the sea.
		
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It's a glorious image but one that could never happen in reality. Your lads would go to prison and no parent would wish that for their child. I've had aunties and uncles make similar bold statements but when you remind them of the consequences it has quite a sobering effect. I'm with @clubchamp98, post #29 but who knows when that may come into effect.


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## Brads (Dec 9, 2021)

I know.
 But it would be better than the alternative that’s for sure.


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2021)

But how long do you want to live ?


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## williamalex1 (Dec 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			But how long do you want to live ?
		
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There's a big difference between just being alive and actually living.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2021)

Cheered me up no end this thread 🙁


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## williamalex1 (Dec 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Cheered me up no end this thread 🙁
		
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Don't worry , you wont be worrying for too long, at your age


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2021)

Brads said:



			My lads have been told to tie me to my motorbike and fire me into the sea.
		
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Hope they wait till you’re at least failing and frail!!!


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			There's a big difference between just being alive and actually living.

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It’s not the years in your life, it’s the life in your years.


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## stefanovic (Dec 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Cheered me up no end this thread 🙁
		
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If you are lucky enough to be remembered on a tombstone it might give your date of birth and your date of death with a hyphen in between.
That hyphen represents your whole life.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 10, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			If you are lucky enough to be remembered on a tombstone it might give your date of birth and your date of death with a hyphen in between.
That hyphen represents you whole life.
		
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There's a nice poem by Linda Ellis called The Dash, used at funerals.


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## rosecott (Dec 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			There's a nice poem by Linda Ellis called The Dash, used at funerals.
		
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You seem to be very knowledgeable about funerals


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## stefanovic (Dec 10, 2021)

Strange how being miserable can make you happy.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 10, 2021)

rosecott said:



			You seem to be very knowledgeable about funerals
		
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Jim, I've been to far too many for my young age , but I'm looking forward to the free bar at yours mate .Take care auld pal ,remember don't rush, except to the toilet.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Don't worry , you wont be worrying for too long, at your age 

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Pot Kettle 😳


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## williamalex1 (Dec 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Pot Kettle 😳
		
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Frying pan, fire, next for me


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			If you are lucky enough to be remembered on a tombstone it might give your date of birth and your date of death with a hyphen in between.
That hyphen represents your whole life.
		
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You don't say!

I like this one:

"If you work and do your best you'll get the sack like all the rest.  On your tombstone neatly lacquered 'Not just dead but bloody knackered' "

Or as on Spike Milligan's:
"I told them I was ill"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2021)

With my MiL being 91, though ageing but still relatively fit and mobile, and my 64 yr old BiL who has serious long covid symptoms and currently really weak and clobbered, and living at home with my MiL, there isn’t that much room at the moment for any concerns with ageing that me or my Mrs might have.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With my MiL being 91, though ageing but still relatively fit and mobile, and my 64 yr old BiL who had serious long covid symptoms and currently really weak and clobbered, and living at home with my MiL, there isn’t that much room at the moment for any concerns with ageing that me or my Mrs might have.
		
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 Keep the faith Hugh xx


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



 Keep the faith Hugh xx
		
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Going up to MiLs this week to sort them out for Christmas.  BiL should be able to ‘care’ for his mum, and she really needs support these days, but long covid has so clobbered him that in some ways _she_ is now caring for _him_…We hope and pray that he recovers to a degree of wellness and fitness, but we are very concerned for him - and so for them both.


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## 4LEX (Dec 11, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A little worried as both parents dies in their early 70's. I do worry about getting old as HID and I don't have kids and so no-one to look after us or at least help. We both have com-morbidities which also nags away. Given my mental health isn't/hasn't been in a great place in the last 18 months it isn't something I try to dwell on. I need to look at my NHS pension and think about adding to the pot
		
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If you're ever struggling with your mental health and fancy a game and beer, let me know. I'm not far away from Berkshire


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Going up to MiLs this week to sort them out for Christmas.  BiL should be able to ‘care’ for his mum, and she really needs support these days, but long covid has so clobbered him that in some ways _she_ is now caring for _him_…We hope and pray that he recovers to a degree of wellness and fitness, but we are very concerned for him - and so for them both.
		
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Not good. Having to stay up here and try and sort things for BiL to get a GP f2f appointment and get him to it.  GP has said symptoms suggest long covid…but that was by telephone…and we fear he is ‘hiding’ behind that ‘symptomatic diagnosis’.  So v worrying.  

And as an aside we wonder how many others with potentially serious underlying conditions are ‘hiding’ behind thinking long covid…fear is a very strong denier…


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 13, 2021)

4LEX said:



			If you're ever struggling with your mental health and fancy a game and beer, let me know. I'm not far away from Berkshire 

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Appreciate the offer. Might take you up on that - need to find a semblance of a golf game first.


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## stefanovic (Dec 13, 2021)

There is a terrible truth about life and it was described by Charles Darwin.
We are merely the products of evolution. Humans may even be the end product but only time will tell.
Evolution works off the principle that any change found to be advantageous for survival will be preserved and passed on.

For life to continue to evolve all individuals need to suffer and die, having passed their information (genes) to the next generation.
Cruelty and suffering from the past is how we arrived here, but sooner or later it becomes our turn.

Modern medicine helps to alleviate our suffering, but there is even a problem with this.
Potentially it stores up even greater problems for the next generation.

If you don't understand Darwinism and Neo Darwinism then you don't understand why we suffer and die.
It is not about the individual, it is about the gene, and genes don't care what happens to us.
Only favourable genes survive to program their way down the generations.
It means that we are only their temporary throw away vehicles.

This may not be easy to accept but I find it rewarding to know.
If you get old you are privileged for sure.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 13, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			There is a terrible truth about life and it was described by Charles Darwin.
We are merely the products of evolution. Humans may even be the end product but only time will tell.
Evolution works off the principle that any change found to be advantageous for survival will be preserved and passed on.

For life to continue to evolve all individuals need to suffer and die, having passed their information (genes) to the next generation.
Cruelty and suffering from the past is how we arrived here, but sooner or later it becomes our turn.

Modern medicine helps to alleviate our suffering, but there is even a problem with this.
Potentially it stores up even greater problems for the next generation.

If you don't understand Darwinism and Neo Darwinism then you don't understand why we suffer and die.
It is not about the individual, it is about the gene, and genes don't care what happens to us.
Only favourable genes survive to program their way down the generations.
It means that we are only their temporary throw away vehicles.

This may not be easy to accept but I find it rewarding to know.
If you get old you are privileged for sure.
		
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Happy and uplifting soul you are 😬🙃

I think I’ll break out my snow patrol records and really cheer myself up


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Happy and uplifting soul you are 😬🙃

I think I’ll break out my snow patrol records and really cheer myself up
		
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In case you find even a glimmer of hope out there, add in a bit of Sam Smith and the latest Adele just to keep you down in the dumps.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In case you find even a glimmer of hope out there, add in a bit of Sam Smith and the latest Adele just to keep you down in the dumps.
		
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Excellent choice sir! Great music to hang yourself to.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Excellent choice sir! Great music to hang yourself to.
		
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I was the era of The Smiths to make you miserable. That Morrisey geezer was a proper happy chappie in comparison


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			There is a terrible truth about life and it was described by Charles Darwin.
We are merely the products of evolution. Humans may even be the end product but only time will tell.
Evolution works off the principle that any change found to be advantageous for survival will be preserved and passed on.

For life to continue to evolve all individuals need to suffer and die, having passed their information (genes) to the next generation.
Cruelty and suffering from the past is how we arrived here, but sooner or later it becomes our turn.

Modern medicine helps to alleviate our suffering, but there is even a problem with this.
Potentially it stores up even greater problems for the next generation.

If you don't understand Darwinism and Neo Darwinism then you don't understand why we suffer and die.
It is not about the individual, it is about the gene, and genes don't care what happens to us.
Only favourable genes survive to program their way down the generations.
It means that we are only their temporary throw away vehicles.

This may not be easy to accept but I find it rewarding to know.
If you get old you are privileged for sure.
		
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Good job there's Doombar to offset the misery.


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## pokerjoke (Dec 13, 2021)

I have no fear of dying that happens to us all,what I do worry about is not being around for my wife and kids.
My wife will survive I have no worries about that.
I just want to be around to protect my kids.
The world is turning nasty and imo will continue to do so,if I can help them stay safe and put my mind at ease by being around then so be it.
If I’m not I worry for them.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			I have no fear of dying that happens to us all,what I do worry about is not being around for my wife and kids.
My wife will survive I have no worries about that.
I just want to be around to protect my kids.
The world is turning nasty and imo will continue to do so,if I can help them stay safe and put my mind at ease by being around then so be it.
If I’m not I worry for them.
		
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You won't be able to worry about them if you're not.

I do understand your concerns, it's only natural as a parent. However don't be blinded by the bad things, they've always been there, also the World if full of beauty, goodness love and people that strive to achieve great things.  All you can do is give your kids the morals and wisdom that will help them forge their own path in life.


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## Billysboots (Dec 13, 2021)

I’ve had a brush with illness this year, having been diagnosed with prostate cancer in the early summer. I’ve had surgery and, thankfully, appear to be on the mend with a positive prognosis.

What it has done is help me see myself in a whole new light. My response to the diagnosis, treatment and everything attached to it came as a really positive and pleasant surprise. I have also learned a lot about family and friends, sadly not all of it good.

The real positive of this for me has been that I am no longer afraid of death. I have faced my biggest fear, cancer, head on and I know it needn’t be a death sentence. And, for all their critics, I can assure everyone that we have a fabulous NHS. Unbelievable. The care I have been given throughout has been fabulous.

So, getting old no longer worries me. I am now enjoying planning for the future, have a totally different perspective on life, and death, and will genuinely squeeze every ounce of enjoyment I can out of the years I am blessed to have left.

I’m not one for clichés, but we have one life. I intend to live mine without worrying about things I can’t control.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not good. Having to stay up here and try and sort things for BiL to get a GP f2f appointment and get him to it.  GP has said symptoms suggest long covid…but that was by telephone…and we fear he is ‘hiding’ behind that ‘symptomatic diagnosis’.  So v worrying. 

And as an aside we wonder how many others with potentially serious underlying conditions are ‘hiding’ behind thinking long covid…fear is a very strong denier…
		
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## williamalex1 (Dec 13, 2021)

I know lots of people who are coughing up green mucus since getting their jabs, me included, hopefully not too serious.


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## chellie (Dec 13, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I know lots of people who are coughing up green mucus since getting their jabs, me included, hopefully not too serious.
		
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Recently, or since their first or second ones. I know a few who've had the same and it keeps coming back. Started after second jabs for them.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 13, 2021)

chellie said:



			Recently, or since their first or second ones. I know a few who've had the same and it keeps coming back. Started after second jabs for them.
		
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I've had it for a long time, I seem to remember posting about it, but can't find it.
It includded some comments from Ethan.
Update, just found my prescription history dated 18/3/2020 , Memetasone nasal spray.
Diagnosed by phone appointment.


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## stefanovic (Dec 14, 2021)

So the 'global moderator' here would rather listen to Snow Patrol than read Darwin and Dawkins.
I simply can't imagine dying without knowing what life really was and how it favoured me and not someone else.
Had my parents not met then I wouldn't be here. 
Their parents had to meet and so on back for millions of years.
Against those truly astronomical odds it is us who are here.
What don't you understand about that?
It's actually the greatest revelation of all if you can only find time to understand it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 14, 2021)

chellie said:



			Recently, or since their first or second ones. I know a few who've had the same and it keeps coming back. Started after second jabs for them.
		
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Yes, back in October- had the second jab. Next day sore throat, next day nose full of mucous. Just kept coming, went on to windpipe. Kept coughing up. Went on and on. After couple days went for pcr test- negative.
Ten days later it cleared. I put it down to a cold. But now I wonder....
If it was the jab, small price to pay for protection.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			So the 'global moderator' here would rather listen to Snow Patrol than read Darwin and Dawkins.
I simply can't imagine dying without knowing what life really was and how it favoured me and not someone else.
Had my parents not met then I wouldn't be here.
Their parents had to meet and so on back for millions of years.
Against those truly astronomical odds it is us who are here.
What don't you understand about that?
*It's actually the greatest revelation of all if you can only find time to understand it.*

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We are on about getting old, Not WHS 😁👍


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## Crow (Dec 14, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			So the 'global moderator' here would rather listen to Snow Patrol than read Darwin and Dawkins.
I simply can't imagine dying without knowing what life really was and how it favoured me and not someone else.
Had my parents not met then I wouldn't be here.
Their parents had to meet and so on back for millions of years.
*Against those truly astronomical odds it is us who are here.
What don't you understand about that?
It's actually the greatest revelation of all if you can only find time to understand it*.
		
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It's only the fact that you have beaten those odds that you're here and able to ask the question, so it's a bit of a fait accomplis really and nothing to get excited about.
(Or you could try and ask one of the almost infinite number of people/beings who haven't beaten the odds, then you might get some of the responses that you're looking for)


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 14, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			So the 'global moderator' here would rather listen to Snow Patrol than read Darwin and Dawkins.
I simply can't imagine dying without knowing what life really was and how it favoured me and not someone else.
Had my parents not met then I wouldn't be here.
Their parents had to meet and so on back for millions of years.
Against those truly astronomical odds it is us who are here.
What don't you understand about that?
It's actually the greatest revelation of all if you can only find time to understand it.
		
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The Global Moderator has read several books by Richard Dawkins, had a brush with The Reaper 4 years ago ( I Don’t Fear Him), but still manages to maintain a cheery outlook on life.

It is what you make it

The day I lose my sense of humour and the ridiculous is the day I get put in my box


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The Global Moderator has read several books by Richard Dawkins, had a brush with The Reaper 4 years ago ( I Don’t Fear Him), but still manages to maintain a cheery outlook on life.

It is what you make it

The day I lose my sense of humour and the ridiculous is the day I get put in my box
		
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Always look on the bright side of...

I'll get me cloak.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Always look on the bright side of...

I'll get me cloak.
		
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I cant whistle .........But I can sing it


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			So the 'global moderator' here would rather listen to Snow Patrol than read Darwin and Dawkins.
I simply can't imagine dying without knowing what life really was and how it favoured me and not someone else.
Had my parents not met then I wouldn't be here.
Their parents had to meet and so on back for millions of years.
Against those truly astronomical odds it is us who are here.
What don't you understand about that?
It's actually the greatest revelation of all if you can only find time to understand it.
		
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Does listening to Genesis count for knowing where you’re from?


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I cant whistle .........But I can sing it 

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"Sing" is stretching the point


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## stefanovic (Dec 16, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The Global Moderator has read several books by Richard Dawkins, had a brush with The Reaper 4 years ago ( I Don’t Fear Him), but still manages to maintain a cheery outlook on life.
		
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What brush did you have with him?

To understand more about why we live - age- die you would also need to read Peter Atkins. I feel sure as a global moderator (how immodest can a person get?) you know all about him too.
While Darwin and Dawkins provide the biology, Atkins provides the physical chemistry.

Ageing is then down to energy. In any system there is a tendency for energy to disperse over time.
In terms of the body, as we get older we get colder, until all the energy is gone except in the form of dead matter which used to be us.

Just as we came out of the darkness we re-enter it at a time unknown.
Strange how we prefer to bury the truth and live in a world of fantasy rather than explore the reality.
If you have a better explanation beyond physics and biology for living and dying, then let's hear it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 16, 2021)

The brush is well documented on here, suffice to say, I shouldn’t be here, but I am 

The Global Mod moniker is bestowed by GM, it’s out of my control, all the mods have the same title.

We are born, we live, we die
The stuff that happens in the “live” bit is largely down to where we are born and to whom.
All I know is I am lucky to have had the chances in life that many do not have, I have a house, a job, a loving relationship, kids that are making their own way and making me proud.a pension, my health is restored and I am still able to play golf

What do I win? 😎😬


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## stefanovic (Dec 16, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The brush is well documented on here, suffice to say, I shouldn’t be here, but I am
		
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Where? Post the link.




			All I know is I am lucky to have had the chances in life that many do not have, I have a house, a job, a loving relationship, kids that are making their own way and making me proud.a pension, my health is restored and I am still able to play golf
		
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Lucky you. My life changed for the worse when I was 8 and taken away from home, and missed over 1 year of education, just at the time when my brain was developing.
I wish I could go back and sue those responsible, but that's what it was like in the 1950's.




			What do I win? 😎😬
		
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A silver spoon?


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 16, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The brush is well documented on here, suffice to say, I shouldn’t be here, but I am 

The Global Mod moniker is bestowed by GM, it’s out of my control, all the mods have the same title.

We are born, we live, we die
The stuff that happens in the “live” bit is largely down to where we are born and to whom.
All I know is I am lucky to have had the chances in life that many do not have, I have a house, a job, a loving relationship, kids that are making their own way and making me proud.a pension, my health is restored and I am still able to play golf

What do I win? 😎😬
		
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Admiration for an intelligent , responsible and balanced attitude. 
Missing in so many.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 16, 2021)

Slight more worried today after getting my CT scan results.
Seemingly I have a 68% lesion in the proximal left anterior artery, calcified plaque in the LAD.
 Cardiologist thinking of a lipid lowering agent, type yet to be decided.
Hopefully that'll work, if not perhaps a stent will be needed , Merry Xmas, fingers crossed .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Slight more worried today after getting my CT scan results.
Seemingly I have a 68% lesion in the proximal left anterior artery, calcified plaque in the LAD.
Cardiologist thinking of a lipid lowering agent, type yet to be decided.
Hopefully that'll work, if not perhaps a stent will be needed , Merry Xmas, fingers crossed .
		
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Look after yourself Billy…


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Slight more worried today after getting my CT scan results.
Seemingly I have a 68% lesion in the proximal left anterior artery, calcified plaque in the LAD.
 Cardiologist thinking of a lipid lowering agent, type yet to be decided.
Hopefully that'll work, if not perhaps a stent will be needed , Merry Xmas, fingers crossed .
		
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I think lipid lowering agents are statins


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## williamalex1 (Dec 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I think lipid lowering agents are statins
		
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Yes, I've tried a few  different makes and had severe side effects with them.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



*Where? Post the link.*


Lucky you. My life changed for the worse when I was 8 and taken away from home, and missed over 1 year of education, just at the time when my brain was developing.
I wish I could go back and sue those responsible, but that's what it was like in the 1950's.


A silver spoon?
		
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I suspect Fragger is too polite to give you the appropriate response ...

Suffice to say, many of us remember it and were mightily relieved at the outcome.  If you want the episode dug up again, may I suggest you buy a spade and do your own digging.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Where? Post the link.


Lucky you. My life changed for the worse when I was 8 and taken away from home, and missed over 1 year of education, just at the time when my brain was developing.
I wish I could go back and sue those responsible, but that's what it was like in the 1950's.


A silver spoon?
		
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Is there a 🤡 of the year award?

If not can we have one and award it to this guy?


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## jim8flog (Dec 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			So the 'global moderator' here would rather listen to Snow Patrol than read Darwin and Dawkins.
I simply can't imagine dying without knowing what life really was and how it favoured me and not someone else.
Had my parents not met then I wouldn't be here.
Their parents had to meet and so on back for millions of years.
Against those truly astronomical odds it is us who are here.
What don't you understand about that?
It's actually the greatest revelation of all if you can only find time to understand it.
		
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 I am reminded of my dad, his platoon was hit by a shell in WWII he was the only one to survive. My brother and I were born after after the war.


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## yandabrown (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Is there a 🤡 of the year award?

If not can we have one and award it to this guy?
		
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Unfortunately, I think that we will need more than one :-(


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Slight more worried today after getting my CT scan results.
Seemingly I have a 68% lesion in the proximal left anterior artery, calcified plaque in the LAD.
Cardiologist thinking of a lipid lowering agent, type yet to be decided.
Hopefully that'll work, if not perhaps a stent will be needed , Merry Xmas, fingers crossed .
		
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A stent is nowt to worry about Billy, and you’ll feel great afterwards.


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			There is a terrible truth about life and it was described by Charles Darwin.
We are merely the products of evolution. Humans may even be the end product but only time will tell.
Evolution works off the principle that any change found to be advantageous for survival will be preserved and passed on.

For life to continue to evolve all individuals need to suffer and die, having passed their information (genes) to the next generation.
Cruelty and suffering from the past is how we arrived here, but sooner or later it becomes our turn.

Modern medicine helps to alleviate our suffering, but there is even a problem with this.
Potentially it stores up even greater problems for the next generation.

If you don't understand Darwinism and Neo Darwinism then you don't understand why we suffer and die.
It is not about the individual, it is about the gene, and genes don't care what happens to us.
Only favourable genes survive to program their way down the generations.
It means that we are only their temporary throw away vehicles.

This may not be easy to accept but I find it rewarding to know.
If you get old you are privileged for sure.
		
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If only favourable genes survive, how do you explain handicapped children, i.e. how did they end up being born when their genes are flawed? How do you explain how handicapped adults can give birth to children without a handicap?

Personally, I believe we have a limited time in our lives and I’m a lot closer to the end than the beginning. I don’t need to waste what time I have reading up on how and why I’m here. If reading up on it gives you a ‘buzz’ good for you, but I don’t need that to enlighten, and fulfill, my life. Good company, and a good craic will do for me.


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## stefanovic (Dec 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			If only favourable genes survive, how do you explain handicapped children, i.e. how did they end up being born when their genes are flawed? How do you explain how handicapped adults can give birth to children without a handicap?
		
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It's all about inheritance and percentages.
You inherit 50% of your genes from mother and 50% from father. 25% from each grandparent and so on.
For example, if both parents have achondroplasia (genes for dwarfism), the chance for them, together, to have a child with normal stature is 25 percent. Their chance of having a child with achondroplasia is 50 percent.


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## stefanovic (Dec 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I am reminded of my dad, his platoon was hit by a shell in WWII he was the only one to survive. My brother and I were born after after the war.
		
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A classic case. The zoologist Desmond Morris (now 93) claims something similar which altered his family history.
Life is a bit like a lottery.
As an analogy, all of us alive today have won the jackpot in the Euro millions.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			A classic case. The zoologist Desmond Morris (now 93) claims something similar which altered his family history.
Life is a bit like a lottery.
As an analogy, all of us alive today have won the jackpot in the Euro millions.
		
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I think they must have my address wrong as I've not received my prize money.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Where? Post the link.


Lucky you. My life changed for the worse when I was 8 and taken away from home, and missed over 1 year of education, just at the time when my brain was developing.
I wish I could go back and sue those responsible, but that's what it was like in the 1950's.


A silver spoon?
		
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A silver spoon? 
Dad was the son of a butcher from Southport, mum was the daughter of a taxi driver from London who passed when she was 18.
Dad was a civil servant who worked and studied hard and became a tax inspector, mum was an auxiliary nurse at a local geriatric hospital, doing nights, then later worked at a greasy spoon, then a doctors receptionist.

So in answer to your question, no not a hint of a silver spoon.

Sorry to hear of your experiences, they can affect an individual’s outlook on life


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## RichA (Dec 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			A classic case. The zoologist Desmond Morris (now 93) claims something similar which altered his family history.
Life is a bit like a lottery.
As an analogy, all of us alive today have won the jackpot in the Euro millions.
		
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Forget Darwin, Dawkins and Morris. You really need to read some Hargreaves. To quote from one of his texts that was actually serialised on television, "I think somebody needs a tickle!"


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Is there a 🤡 of the year award?

If not can we have one and award it to this guy?
		
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Think we should get a new shiny shovel for that hole he's digging.


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## stefanovic (Dec 17, 2021)

RichA said:



			Forget Darwin, Dawkins and Morris. You really need to read some Hargreaves. To quote from one of his texts that was actually serialised on television, "I think somebody needs a tickle!"
		
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Okay, so when it comes to why we suffer, grow old and die then explain why you think Darwin, Dawkins, Morris (and Atkins) are wrong.
I'll be waiting for your replies.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 17, 2021)

Mega woooooosssshhhhhhhhhh 🙄


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## stefanovic (Dec 17, 2021)

Mega woooooosssshhhhhhhhhh 🙄 Is that the best the Global Moderator can come up with??

So let me put it another way.
If Darwin, Dawkins, Morris (and Atkins) are wrong then who do you trust to give you an answer?
Would you, for instance trust what a faith leader is telling you or would you trust a scientist?
Instinct will tell you they can't both be right.
Your options on getting old depend largely on your physical and mental health but most of all on your brain and how it changes over the years.


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## RichA (Dec 17, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Okay, so when it comes to why we suffer, grow old and die then explain why you think Darwin, Dawkins, Morris (and Atkins) are wrong.
I'll be waiting for your replies.
		
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I don't necessarily think any of them are wrong and didn't suggest so. 
Darwin made a discovery that went against everything that he believed, but followed it through because he was prepared to challenge what he thought he knew.
When I was young, I used to describe myself as an atheist. I watched a talk by Dawkins on TV, thinking it would speak to me. I found that he came across as arrogant, demeaning of those who disagreed with him and so zealous in his atheism that I instantly dropped my own label in favour of "no religion."
You might be against belief systems based on the supernatural, but why actively set yourself against the vast majority of your fellow humans?
Live and let live. If someone takes a crumb of comfort believing that the ones they love may go to a better place after death, who are you or I to argue with them if it does us no harm.
As Hargreaves would say, "Shazam!"


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 17, 2021)

RichA said:



			I don't necessarily think any of them are wrong and didn't suggest so. 
Darwin made a discovery that went against everything that he believed, but followed it through because he was prepared to challenge what he thought he knew.
When I was young, I used to describe myself as an atheist. I watched a talk by Dawkins on TV, thinking it would speak to me. I found that he came across as arrogant, demeaning of those who disagreed with him and so zealous in his atheism that I instantly dropped my own label in favour of "no religion."
You might be against belief systems based on the supernatural, but why actively set yourself against the vast majority of your fellow humans?
Live and let live. If someone takes a crumb of comfort believing that the ones they love may go to a better place after death, who are you or I to argue with them if it does us no harm.
As Hargreaves would say, "Shazam!"
		
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I agree completely with everything you say from  "If someone takes....", but that isn't an argument against the veracity of what you saw Dawkins saying, it is a dislike of his attitude to people who "believe". ( which ,if as described, you were right to do)
Different things!
Personally, I've never seen him "perform"

In any event, you're still in the "No" camp, as I am now.😀


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## stefanovic (Dec 17, 2021)

RichA said:



			Darwin made a discovery that went against everything that he believed, but followed it through because he was prepared to challenge what he thought he knew.
		
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He probably wasn't the first to suspect how evolution happened, but he was the first to give a detailed explanation. It was and still is a dangerous idea that life forms change over time and are still doing so.



			When I was young, I used to describe myself as an atheist. I watched a talk by Dawkins on TV, thinking it would speak to me. I found that he came across as arrogant, demeaning of those who disagreed with him and so
zealous in his atheism that I instantly dropped my own label in favour of "no religion."
		
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When I was young I read Desmond Morris, and what a brain tonic that was. A man who was able to use biological science against accepted wisdom.
You need to remember that faith cannot be falsified. What I like about science is that it can be falsified in order to improve understanding.



			You might be against belief systems based on the supernatural, but why actively set yourself against the vast majority of your fellow humans?
		
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Nobody has ever been able to prove the supernatural or the paranormal (full stop)



			Live and let live. If someone takes a crumb of comfort believing that the ones they love may go to a better place after death, who are you or I to argue with them if it does us no harm.
		
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I won't argue with that, but such a statement is almost certainly delusional. Our bodies are made of atoms which are constantly passing through us and entering into other arrangements.


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## RichA (Dec 17, 2021)

Being human isn't about being right and logical all the time. If it was, I wouldn't own a driver and a 60° wedge, drink whisky and smoke the odd roll up. 
Sometimes it's better to be Captain Kirk than Mr Spock.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Mega woooooosssshhhhhhhhhh 🙄 Is that the best the Global Moderator can come up with??

So let me put it another way.
If Darwin, Dawkins, Morris (and Atkins) are wrong then who do you trust to give you an answer?
Would you, for instance trust what a faith leader is telling you or would you trust a scientist?
Instinct will tell you they can't both be right.
Your options on getting old depend largely on your physical and mental health but most of all on your brain and how it changes over the years.
		
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I’m not saying they’re wrong, it’s not something I’m that fussed about, but do you not think they might be wrong? Perhaps a bit simplistic a question as an opening gambit but what I’m alluding to is that science has been proven wrong before and will be again. Those guys might be 100% right but there is a possibility that something they’ve spouted as science fact does become science fiction.

Science has told us for many, many years that there are 3 states. Solid, liquid & gas. But plasma isn’t any of those three. Science also tell us there are 5 senses, and has told us that for many, many years. There are in fact 9.

You believe in the science but you haven’t proved the science. You believe it. Is that not faith in the spoken word of each of those you’ve mentioned? Blind faith? What happens to your belief if one of their points is proven to be wrong, as science sometimes is?

I’m not trying to disprove your points but I do question your lack of scepticism in the science.


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2021)

Lost my mum in June this year.  I have just  spent the last hour doing Executor duties.  

The lesson for all was that the last ten years of her life were her most financially well off....... but for most of these years, her health meant she was unable to enjoy it.  

So, plan for what can be planned for, accept what you can't.  Don't waste time arguing about daft stuff.  If paying £300 to play JCB or Sunningdale doesn't impact your ability to keep a roof over your head or food on the table, blooming well pay it and thank your lucky stars you did!   (or whatever floats your boat!) 

We are only here for a visit folks


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 17, 2021)

Saw something on the TV and it got me thinking about losing my dad. Felt like no more than 10 years max but was only when I checked the date it was 18 years in August. No idea where all that time went


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## BiMGuy (Dec 17, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lost my mum in June this year.  I have just  spent the last hour doing Executor duties. 

The lesson for all was that the last ten years of her life were her most financially well off....... but for most of these years, her health meant she was unable to enjoy it. 

So, plan for what can be planned for, accept what you can't.  Don't waste time arguing about daft stuff.  If paying £300 to play JCB or Sunningdale doesn't impact your ability to keep a roof over your head or food on the table, blooming well pay it and thank your lucky stars you did!   (or whatever floats your boat!)

We are only here for a visit folks
		
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100% Agree with this.

I have minimum savings and pension compared to what I earn. But we have spent the money on taking the kids on great family holidays, and buying a house somewhere nice for them to grow up. Letting them try and participate whatever sports or activities they want. We hope they are getting a great childhood and memories of growing up. 

It might mean I have to work longer or have less in retirement, but you can’t buy those memories when you are old. 

I have an old mate who earns similar to me but lives like a miser. He’s always maxed out his pension and savings. His kids have never been abroad or even on a week away in this country. All their holidays are days out to free places. 
Everything he buys is second hand or free from somewhere.

It’s almost like an illness that makes him save as much as he can, we think because his dad died just after he retired, he wants to retire as young as possible. He might retire early, but he’ll be bloody miserable and on his own when he does.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			100% Agree with this.

I have minimum savings and pension compared to what I earn. But we have spent the money on taking the kids on great family holidays, and buying a house somewhere nice for them to grow up. Letting them try and participate whatever sports or activities they want. We hope they are getting a great childhood and memories of growing up.

It might mean I have to work longer or have less in retirement, but you can’t buy those memories when you are old.

I have an old mate who earns similar to me but lives like a miser. He’s always maxed out his pension and savings. His kids have never been abroad or even on a week away in this country. All their holidays are days out to free places.
Everything he buys is second hand or free from somewhere.

It’s almost like an illness that makes him save as much as he can, we think because his dad died just after he retired, he wants to retire as young as possible. He might retire early, but he’ll be bloody miserable and on his own when he does.
		
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My experience of such people is that when they retire they don't change, they continue to live an austere lifestyle.


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## pendodave (Dec 17, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			My experience of such people is that when they retire they don't change, they continue to live an austere lifestyle.
		
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It's complicated. I grew up in a family without much. I think it stays with you for life in some cases. I dont think I'd ever be comfortable "wasting" money. Hey ho. Not the worst way to be, I guess.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m not saying they’re wrong, it’s not something I’m that fussed about, but do you not think they might be wrong? Perhaps a bit simplistic a question as an opening gambit but what I’m alluding to is that science has been proven wrong before and will be again. Those guys might be 100% right but there is a possibility that something they’ve spouted as science fact does become science fiction.

Science has told us for many, many years that there are 3 states. Solid, liquid & gas. But plasma isn’t any of those three. Science also tell us there are 5 senses, and has told us that for many, many years. There are in fact 9.

You believe in the science but you haven’t proved the science. You believe it. Is that not faith in the spoken word of each of those you’ve mentioned? Blind faith? What happens to your belief if one of their points is proven to be wrong, as science sometimes is?

I’m not trying to disprove your points but I do question your lack of scepticism in the science.
		
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You are right that the "science of the day " may be, and sometimes is shown, wrong. But almost all science strives to be objective, and acknowledges  proof, even if it changes what was thought to be correct .
Unlike faith.
Faith in people, and hope, is laudable ,but it has to be granted that it might sometimes be naive.
But science is what has taken us from the caves to where we are now, so that when you are ill , say, you get better because someone is over you in a gown with a scalpel, and not wearing a mask, cape and  a hood ,chanting.

And it will be science that will take humans onwards, unless prejudices, unchecked emotion, myths and various faiths take us back to the dark ages.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are right that the "science of the day " may be, and sometimes is shown, wrong. But almost all science strives to be objective, and acknowledges  proof, even if it changes what was thought to be correct .
Unlike faith.
Faith in people, and hope, is laudable ,but it has to be granted that it might sometimes be naive.
But science is what has taken us from the caves to where we are now, so that when you are ill , say, you get better because someone is over you in a gown with a scalpel, and not wearing a mask, cape and  a hood ,chanting.

And it will be science that will take humans onwards, unless prejudices, unchecked emotion, myths and various faiths take us back to the dark ages.
		
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Surely there's a difference between medical science and astro physics. I agree that in past times the church, due to the ignorance of medical knowledge, was all that was available to ill people.  There is still so much we do not understand so it's difficult to write off the 'creation' theory.  Someone said we have only pulled aside a curtain and taken a peep through at the universe.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely there's a difference between medical science and astro physics. I agree that in past times the church, due to the ignorance of medical knowledge, was all that was available to ill people.  There is still so much we do not understand so it's difficult to write off the 'creation' theory.  Someone said we have only pulled aside a curtain and taken a peep through at the universe.
		
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The insurmountable problem about "creation" is this
That, expressly or by implication, it asserts that some intelligence made everything in the Universe including its processes, consequences and outcomes, as well as its content.

Furthermore,  most faiths believing this, also assert that this intelligence is so omnipotent that it is aware of those processes, consequences etc before the whole thing is created. They also assert that this intelligence is all loving in a fatherly way.

Now, how can it be that such an intelligence having the ability to foresee all the pain, cruelty, grief that has been created ( dreadful diseases, tortures by  some animals on others and their own species, including humans) nevertheless decided to carry on and create it?

In our world any designer ( and there must be some on this forum whose profession that is/was) would love to know the full knowledge of how his design would turn out, and exactly how it would function in its lifetime. Because if he knew that , and there were grave faults, he would either abandon the design , or correct it before creating it.

And the faiths do assert that such a perfect design is possible because they call it Heaven, Nirvana or whatever and expect/ hope to go there.

As I say, to me, an insurmountable barrier to acceptance.


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## Captainron (Dec 18, 2021)

Just have as much fun as I can every day. I’m nearly 45 and could die on any given day. Got the usual financial stuff in place to make sure the family is looked after when I die. 

Said it before that too many people are living too bloody long nowadays and folk think that 80 is no age to die nowadays! Unreal.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The insurmountable problem about "creation" is this
That, expressly or by implication, it asserts that some intelligence made everything in the Universe including its processes, consequences and outcomes, as well as its content.

Furthermore,  most faiths believing this, also assert that this intelligence is so omnipotent that it is aware of those processes, consequences etc before the whole thing is created. They also assert that this intelligence is all loving in a fatherly way.

Now, how can it be that such an intelligence having the ability to foresee all the pain, cruelty, grief that has been created ( dreadful diseases, tortures by  some animals on others and their own species, including humans) nevertheless decided to carry on and create it?

In our world any designer ( and there must be some on this forum whose profession that is/was) would love to know the full knowledge of how his design would turn out, and exactly how it would function in its lifetime. Because if he knew that , and there were grave faults, he would either abandon the design , or correct it before creating it.

And the faiths do assert that such a perfect design is possible because they call it Heaven, Nirvana or whatever and expect/ hope to go there.

As I say, to me, an insurmountable barrier to acceptance.
		
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The view you have regarding an uncaring creator seems to be one that looks at religion through the eyes of people that have have decided to accept what others say without making the effort to look into the subject in detail with an unbiased mind and really study the actual scriptures.

When I was a younger man I had exactly the same view that you hold. I knew a very clever Scientist who was also a devout Christian and I had some long and deep discussions with him that made me open my mind to the subject and accept there was much more to consider than the narrow view I held.

I'm not a member of any church and disagree with much of what they teach, especially the mainstream Christian churches.  I've posted some views on this subject in previous forum discussions and don't really want to open the subject to open discussion here as it always ends up badly.

If you would like to discuss it by PM then I'm quite happy to do that.  I'll dig out one of my previous posts if I can find it.


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## rosecott (Dec 18, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Just have as much fun as I can every day. I’m nearly 45 and could die on any given day. Got the usual financial stuff in place to make sure the family is looked after when I die.

Said it before that too many people are living too bloody long nowadays and folk think that 80 is no age to die nowadays! Unreal.
		
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Are you talking about me?


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Just have as much fun as I can every day. I’m nearly 45 and could die on any given day. Got the usual financial stuff in place to make sure the family is looked after when I die. 

Said it before that too many people are living too bloody long nowadays and folk think that 80 is no age to die nowadays! Unreal.
		
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Hope it ain't unreal. Just round the corner for me😳
And when you are in your seventies ( so far away isn't it?😀), so will you.


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## stefanovic (Dec 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are right that the "science of the day " may be, and sometimes is shown, wrong. But almost all science strives to be objective, and acknowledges  proof, even if it changes what was thought to be correct .
Unlike faith.
		
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Science is always work in progress. Faith is fixed and largely based on the supernatural from a dark age before science.
Faith leaders will tell you that the theory of evolution is ONLY a theory, purely because it contradicts their own book of creation.
Well, it was just a theory when first described but it has passed every test in over 160 years.




			Faith in people, and hope, is laudable ,but it has to be granted that it might sometimes be naive.
		
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Faith is ignorant, controlling, scaring, authoritarian too.




			But science is what has taken us from the caves to where we are now, so that when you are ill , say, you get better because someone is over you in a gown with a scalpel, and not wearing a mask, cape and  a hood ,chanting.
		
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Yet some will still send for the witch doctor.




			And it will be science that will take humans onwards, unless prejudices, unchecked emotion, myths and various faiths take us back to the dark ages.
		
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Let's sure hope not.

Excellent post!


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The view you have regarding an uncaring creator seems to be one that looks at religion through the eyes of people that have have decided to accept what others say without making the effort to look into the subject in detail with an unbiased mind and really study the actual scriptures.

When I was a younger man I had exactly the same view that you hold. I knew a very clever Scientist who was also a devout Christian and I had some long and deep discussions with him that made me open my mind to the subject and accept there was much more to consider than the narrow view I held.

I'm not a member of any church and disagree with much of what they teach, especially the mainstream Christian churches.  I've posted some views on this subject in previous forum discussions and don't really want to open the subject to open discussion here as it always ends up badly.

If you would like to discuss it by PM then I'm quite happy to do that.  I'll dig out one of my previous posts if I can find it.
		
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Thanks for the invite, but I'll leave it. No slight intended, I just think you have your view and I have mine. Fair enough. And we'll leave it as is here.
Take care 😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Science is always work in progress. Faith is fixed and largely based on the supernatural from a dark age before science.
Faith leaders will tell you that the theory of evolution is ONLY a theory, purely because it contradicts their own book of creation.
Well, it was just a theory when first described but it has passed every test in over 160 years.


Faith is ignorant, controlling, scaring, authoritarian too.


Yet some will still send for the witch doctor.


Let's sure hope not.

Excellent post!
		
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Just for clarity , Stef.

I did say "faith IN people , and hope, is laudable. "  Not meaning faith as in religious belief, but in the broadest sense, like confidence in people etc.
That's how I meant it.


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## chrisd (Dec 18, 2021)

I feel old age has suddenly crept up on me and Mrs D but I feel that it is only a number

I have never, and still dont, feel "old" - yes, I started work at 15 and still doing a bit at 69 and will probably be about 3 years before a project I'm doing will end. Mrs D and I enjoy holidays abroad and are planning to go to Australia and New Zealand for a cruise this year. I enjoy 2 or 3 rounds of golf a week and like them to be competitive, will still kick a ball round with my son (38) and  play rough and tumble with the grand children.

On the downside i have prostate cancer which has slightly worsened and I'm due to see what's to be done about it, but, on the upside my hips were replaced when needed, and other issues are being dealt with

I wont want to be around if Mrs D and I cant care for ourselves though, I hope to see our grandchildren grow up before that!


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## stefanovic (Dec 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Just for clarity , Stef.

I did say "faith IN people , and hope, is laudable. "  Not meaning faith as in religious belief, but in the broadest sense, like confidence in people etc.
That's how I meant it.
		
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Fair enough!
It's just that I shudder at any mention of the word faith.
The dark cloud of faith always seems to hang over us.

I would advise to question everything, like the meaning of life, and not simply accept what faith leaders are saying.

Of the 105 billion or so people (Homo Sapiens) that have ever existed on earth, how many have ever known the true answer to the meaning of life?
I'm guessing not more than a few thousand.
It wasn't until 1953 that the DNA molecule was understood.
Not only is that is within my own lifetime but it was discovered only about 100 miles away from where I was born.
So in all human history and geography only people alive after 1953 can possibly have known this.
Units of information called genes give us a further answer as to the meaning of life. But again, how many people have ever got their head around this?
There is quite probably a still deeper meaning.


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## Crow (Dec 18, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Fair enough!
It's just that I shudder at any mention of the word faith.
The dark cloud of faith always seems to hang over us.

I would advise to question everything, like the meaning of life, and not simply accept what faith leaders are saying.

Of the 105 billion or so people (Homo Sapiens) that have ever existed on earth, how many have ever known the true answer to the meaning of life?
I'm guessing not more than a few thousand.
It wasn't until 1953 that the DNA molecule was understood.
Not only is that is within my own lifetime but it was discovered only about 100 miles away from where I was born.
So in all human history and geography only people alive after 1953 can possibly have known this.
Units of information called genes give us a further answer as to the meaning of life. But again, how many people have ever got their head around this?
There is quite probably a still deeper meaning.
		
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Why does life have to have a meaning?  It just is.
You're looking around for something you want that can't be found. (To borrow from a great philosopher)


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## williamalex1 (Dec 18, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Are you talking about me?
		
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 mibbie


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## rosecott (Dec 18, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



 mibbie 

Click to expand...

I know he's about a foot taller than me but I know how to deal with that.


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## srixon 1 (Dec 18, 2021)

On Wednesday I was rear ended causing minor damage to the back of my one year old car that only has 5200 miles on the clock. If that had happened five years ago I would have been extremely (infraction) about it thinking it was the end of the world. Fast forward to now, and having had, and come through a life threatening illness I look at life completely differently. The collision caused no injuries, and the only things hurt were the pride and the insurance premiums of the girl that ran into the back of me. I actually said to the girl to try not to worry about it as the cars can be fixed. (Give it 20 years and both cars will probably be on the scrap heap anyway). Life is too short to worry about some things that come along to “test” us.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

Crow said:



			Why does life have to have a meaning?  It just is.
You're looking around for something you want that can't be found. (To borrow from a great philosopher)
		
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Or maybe, understood?

Then again, maybe one day😀

Because, someone is always looking!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2021)

Have I looked ahead and asked myself where I’d like to be buried or cremated? Have I looked ahead to where we might have the most wider familial support if things get trickier as the clock ticks?  Have I asked myself if I see us living in our current house when we are in our 80s…and if the answer is No, then as we must have moved then where will we be?  How easily could we make new friends in our 60s and 70s if we have moved, what would we do with ourselves?

Yes I have to all. Not in a morbid way, but with a hat on that tells me that answers to such questions will inform what we do in the next five years.  But I don’t obsess about these questions.

Just over 3yrs ago ago my Mrs retired from the NHS (basically as a result of a serious illness that she is living in remission with) I took a 6months period of unpaid leave first half 2019, and we travelled down-under to Oz, NZ and SE Asia for over four months.  The cost of that plus my loss of earnings was very significant, but we did it because we weren’t getting any younger; because with my companies support and my wife’s retirement lump sum we could; and because with her condition we did not and still do not know what is around the next corner of life, when having money might be great, but if you can’t spend it…

We returned home from our travels in June 2019…and just look what was round the corner of 2019/2020.

Live life.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2021)

There’s an old saying “ leave this life full of memories, not dreams. Bottom line. Get things done as SILH did during his 4 months in SE Asia. Time spent worrying about things that might not happen is time wasted doing things that should be happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s an old saying “ leave this life full of memories, not dreams. Bottom line. Get things done as SILH did during his 4 months in SE Asia. Time spent worrying about things that might not happen is time wasted doing things that should be happening.
		
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Absolutely.  Looking back on our travels and the fabulous experiences we had, has been one of the key things that has helped us cope with the last two years.  But we appreciate how very fortunate we were, that we are in the very small minority who could do it, but there are much smaller things we can all do today or tomorrow that build memories - and possibly more importantly that can start rebuilding broken relationships. 

So that friend or family member you have fallen out with, or simply haven’t spoken to for too long…give them a call - today if you can.  And *tell* the ones close to you and that you love that you do - telling someone that you love them and that you care might be awkward - but it is free, and if you don’t or put it off, then one day you might regret not doing it.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely.  Looking back on our travels and the fabulous experiences we had, has been one of the key things that has helped us cope with the last two years.  But we appreciate how very fortunate we were, that we are in the very small minority who could do it, but there are much smaller things we can all do today or tomorrow that build memories - and possibly more importantly that can start rebuilding broken relationships.

*So that friend or family member you have fallen out with*, or simply haven’t spoken to for too long…*give them a call *- today if you can.  And *tell* the ones close to you and that you love that you do - telling someone that you love them and that you care might be awkward - but it is free, and if you don’t or put it off, then one day you might regret not doing it.
		
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No.  Not happening.  If I've fallen out with them there will be a very good reason why, and the fact that I might shuffle off this mortal coil won't alter that fact one iota.  

Fully agree with the point re travelling, or doing things you want to experience, but not that one.


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## stefanovic (Dec 19, 2021)

Crow said:



			Why does life have to have a meaning?  It just is.
You're looking around for something you want that can't be found. (To borrow from a great philosopher)
		
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You have missed the whole point.
More than anybody else I suspect, Richard Dawkins has proved that life has NO meaning.
In one of his TV documentaries he is shown out walking and reflecting on this by saying that we just accept we are here and can now think about the wonder of life.
If you have not read and got the point of his masterpiece The Selfish Gene, then do so.
You will need to take the 'big flip' to look at life from a completely different aspect. Not everyone has been successful, but if you are then it's the most amazing experience.

BTW, when it comes to philosophers, philosophy is now dead.


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## RichA (Dec 19, 2021)

stefanovic said:



*You have missed the whole point.*
More than anybody else I suspect, Richard Dawkins has proved that life has NO meaning.
In one of his TV documentaries he is shown out walking and reflecting on this by saying that we just accept we are here and can now think about the wonder of life.
If you have not read and got the point of his masterpiece The Selfish Gene, then do so.
You will need to take the 'big flip' to look at life from a completely different aspect. Not everyone has been successful, but if you are then it's the most amazing experience.

BTW, when it comes to philosophers, philosophy is now dead.
		
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There is a world of difference between everyone else in the room missing your point and everyone else in the room either disagreeing with your point or just not being interested in it after it's 6th reiteration.


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## stefanovic (Dec 19, 2021)

I have no other agenda than what has been revealed by science.
I am not interested in faith or philosophy described from an age before science.
I think some members here need to grow up and accept reality.
My main point is that if you have lived to grow old like me you have been privileged.
I've had many cousins die young.
What else do you want? What else do you expect?
I hear it mentioned about an afterlife, like 'where do you think we go when we die?'
Not content with the rich bounty of life itself, they want an afterlife as well!
Total and utter delusion.


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## Crow (Dec 19, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			I have no other agenda than what has been revealed by science.
I am not interested in faith or philosophy described from an age before science.
I think some members here need to grow up and accept reality.
My main point is that if you have lived to grow old like me you have been privileged.
I've had many cousins die young.
What else do you want? What else do you expect?
I hear it mentioned about an afterlife, like 'where do you think we go when we die?'
Not content with the rich bounty of life itself, they want an afterlife as well!
Total and utter delusion.
		
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Have you ever considered putting yourself forward as a new messiah?
The tone of your posts leads me to think that you consider yourself as such.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			I have no other agenda than what has been revealed by science.
I am not interested in faith or philosophy described from an age before science.
I think some members here need to grow up and accept reality.
*My main point is that if you have lived to grow old like me you have been privileged.*
I've had many cousins die young.
What else do you want? What else do you expect?
I hear it mentioned about an afterlife, like 'where do you think we go when we die?'
Not content with the rich bounty of life itself, they want an afterlife as well!
Total and utter delusion.
		
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Looking at me dad with Luekemia and FIL with Dementia, I would not call it a privilege. What I have said having worked in the health side of things is “ get things done”. I do not have any inclination whatsoever thinking about getting old.  I To have seen to many folk go before there time. Some of it self inflicted, some of it illness, some of it suicide.
If I was to give one bit of advice to anyone, that would be to get a bucket list drawn up and get doing it 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No.  Not happening.  If I've fallen out with them there will be a very good reason why, and the fact that I might shuffle off this mortal coil won't alter that fact one iota.

Fully agree with the point re travelling, or doing things you want to experience, but not that one.
		
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Obviously I do not know circumstances and they may well be very painful, upsetting or difficult, but I can only urge you to reconsider.  I know far too many folk who wish very deeply that they had made up or said sorry but didn’t - and now when it is not possible very much regret not doing so.  We can all say sorry or forgive, the other party might not reciprocate but at least we have done what we can.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Obviously I do not know circumstances
		
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No, you don't.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and they may well be very painful, upsetting or difficult,
		
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Yes they were.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			but I can only urge you to reconsider.
		
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Won't be happening.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know far too many folk who wish very deeply that they had made up or said sorry but didn’t - and now when it is not possible very much regret not doing so.  We can all say sorry or forgive, the other party might not reciprocate but at least we have done what we can.
		
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This one won't; anyone that tells someone close to me that the someone was the cause of my mother's cancer doesn't deserve the time of day from me.  The party involved gets common courtesy, but no more, which in my book is more than they are entitled to.  Any apology needs to come from that party to me and the someone they abused, not the other way round.

Clear enough for you?


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2021)

Crow said:



			Have you ever considered putting yourself forward as a new messiah?
The tone of your posts leads me to think that you consider yourself as such.
		
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He’s not the messiah, he’s a very Darwinian boy.

With apologies to M Python


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, you don't.



Yes they were.



Won't be happening.



This one won't; anyone that tells someone close to me that the someone was the cause of my mother's cancer doesn't deserve the time of day from me.  The party involved gets common courtesy, but no more, which in my book is more than they are entitled to.  Any apology needs to come from that party to me and the someone they abused, not the other way round.

Clear enough for you?
		
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Yes perfectly clear.  Apologies for upsetting you.  I was only suggesting from my own personal and wider experience.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 20, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			You have missed the whole point.
More than anybody else I suspect, *Richard Dawkins has proved that life has NO meaning.*
In one of his TV documentaries he is shown out walking and reflecting on this by saying that we just accept we are here and can now think about the wonder of life.
If you have not read and got the point of his masterpiece The Selfish Gene, then do so.
You will need to take the 'big flip' to look at life from a completely different aspect. Not everyone has been successful, but if you are then it's the most amazing experience.

BTW, when it comes to philosophers, philosophy is now dead.
		
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Richard Dawkins is an opinionated pompous nob.


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## Hobbit (Dec 21, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Richard Dawkins is an opinionated pompous nob.
		
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And many of his theories on gene selection are at odds with many of his peers, who described his gene selection theory as narrow and doesn’t consider a number of other factors which are proven to influence evolution.


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## Voyager EMH (Dec 21, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Richard Dawkins is an opinionated pompous nob.
		
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Not his fault. though. Those characteristics are in his genes.

God knows where my atheist gene came from.


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## stefanovic (Dec 21, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			And many of his theories on gene selection are at odds with many of his peers
		
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Having made a statement like that you need to qualify it with references.


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## stefanovic (Dec 21, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Not his fault. though. Those characteristics are in his genes.
		
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Strange how people who claim to have read all of his books have never got the point of what he is saying.



			God knows where my atheist gene came from.
		
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Apart from the fact there is no such thing as 'God', there is no atheist gene, either. But I take it that is what you mean.


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## stefanovic (Dec 21, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Richard Dawkins is an opinionated pompous nob.
		
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I imagine him to be just a humble person with an average brain who has found employment as an evolutionary biologist.
So what specifically are you referring to: The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene or what?


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 21, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			I imagine him to be just a humble person with an average brain who has found employment as an evolutionary biologist.
So what specifically are you referring to: The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene or what?
		
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Stef, I realise you are at times on your own on here with your various theories but exactly what relevance are the majority of posts to do with the original question?


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2021)

A stark reminder of ones own fallibility after my current visit to hospital. While I knew I probably still had one too many beers with the boys than I should I thought I didn't push the boundaries too far. Seem my colon has been poor from birth and my diabetes not a single well controlled as I thought. Short point if you feel in any way strange or notice anything unusual go get it checked


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## stefanovic (Dec 21, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Stef, I realise you are at times on your own on here with your various theories but exactly what relevance are the majority of posts to do with the original question?
		
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As I'm over 70 I know things that people who are not elderly have yet to learn.
If get older I hope to learn more and more.
So it's down to experience and a great of reading and debating I've done over the years.
Science is relevant because it is always exploring why humans are around for only a few decades, as opposed to what makes them (atoms) which can be around for trillions of years.

I'm the only one who knows how my body feels.
As the laws of physics precludes us from getting younger, why should we be worried about getting older?
As for the purpose of living then you are free to make up your own mind.
I've read that the purpose of life (for instance) is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
So we are merely part of a process.
One explanation among many, but I'll consider it.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A stark reminder of ones own fallibility after my current visit to hospital. While I knew I probably still had one too many beers with the boys than I should I thought I didn't push the boundaries too far. Seem my colon has been poor from birth and my diabetes not a single well controlled as I thought. Short point if you feel in any way strange or notice anything unusual go get it checked
		
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Easier said than done these days.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			As I'm over 70 I know things that people who are not elderly have yet to learn.
If get older I hope to learn more and more.
So it's down to experience and a great of reading and debating I've done over the years.
Science is relevant because it is always exploring why humans are around for only a few decades, as opposed to what makes them (atoms) which can be around for trillions of years.

I'm the only one who knows how my body feels.
As the laws of physics precludes us from getting younger, why should we be worried about getting older?
As for the purpose of living then you are free to make up your own mind.
I've read that the purpose of life (for instance) is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
So we are merely part of a process.
One explanation among many, but I'll consider it.
		
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What makes you age if your atoms are imortal.


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## Hobbit (Dec 21, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Having made a statement like that you need to qualify it with references.
		
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Do I? Do your own research, there’s plenty to read up on about his disproven theories, and his place in the scientific community. Methinks you’ve bet on the wrong horse.


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## Hobbit (Dec 21, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			As I'm over 70 I know things that people who are not elderly have yet to learn.
If get older I hope to learn more and more.
So it's down to experience and a great of reading and debating I've done over the years.
Science is relevant because it is always exploring why humans are around for only a few decades, as opposed to what makes them (atoms) which can be around for trillions of years.

I'm the only one who knows how my body feels.
As the laws of physics precludes us from getting younger, why should we be worried about getting older?
As for the purpose of living then you are free to make up your own mind.
I've read that the purpose of life (for instance) is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
So we are merely part of a process.
One explanation among many, but I'll consider it.
		
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Loving the way you link age with wisdom in that one sentence you’ve confirmed what someone else posted… arrogance personified.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 21, 2021)

I’d rather spend my time supping the whisky of life and contemplating the complex flavours than worry too much about where the atoms have come from and wether there is a T-Rex atom in my tipple 🥃


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## Imurg (Dec 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’d rather spend my time supping the whisky of life and contemplating the complex flavours than worry too much about where the atoms have come from and wether there is a T-Rex atom in my tipple 🥃
		
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Well it probably does have a bit of bite to it.......


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2021)

As a great man once said "do not take life too seriously. You will never get out alive"

I'm not worried; if it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't


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## Tashyboy (Dec 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’d rather spend my time supping the whisky of life and contemplating the complex flavours than worry too much about where the atoms have come from and wether there is a T-Rex atom in my tipple 🥃
		
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😂😂😂😂ignorant heathen


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Strange how people who claim to have read all of his books have never got the point of what he is saying.

Apart from the fact _*there is no such thing as 'God'*_, there is no atheist gene, either. But I take it that is what you mean.
		
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It depends…in my world I have a God - it may be of my understanding…and may not be the sort of God that atheists and agnostics _think_ I should or might believe in.  But they don’t believe in God anyway, therefore can’t define what they don’t believe exists, and so I consider them to be in no position to tell me that the God that _I _believe in doesn’t exist.  Besides, I can’t really describe _my_ God either, other than it is a God of love; and a God that tries to guide me to do the right thing rather than what _I_ might _want_ to do.  But that’s just me, and with that I am comfortable.


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Watched the Ed Ball’s programmes the other week and Panorama tonight. Nothing political here but getting old is something that affect us all. Cost is a major problem for  care in older age and for some of us it is closer than we think.

For us it is worrying as neither us have brothers nor sisters and 3 sons and family live in Spain,  Australia and New Zealand.

Have you thought about the potential problems and seeing the 3 programmes they are worrying times. Any thoughts?
		
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How on Earth have we ended up discussing God, atheism, atoms………….?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’d rather spend my time supping the whisky of life and contemplating the complex flavours than worry too much about where the atoms have come from and *wether there is a T-Rex atom in my tipple* 🥃
		
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Pardon!


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## Imurg (Dec 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			How on Earth have we ended up discussing God, atheism, atoms………….?
		
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Left turn at the traffic lights....watching out for cyclists of course..


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Richard Dawkins is an opinionated pompous nob.
		
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We're all opinionated, otherwise we wouldn't be writing here! 😀


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Pardon!
		
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Post 148
Atoms can be around for a long time apparently, I just added some artistic licence or flannel depending on your viewpoint 👍


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## Tashyboy (Dec 21, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			As I'm over 70 *I know things that people who are not elderly have yet to learn.*
If get older I hope to learn more and more.
*So it's down to experience and a great of reading and debating I've done over the years.*
Science is relevant because it is always exploring why humans are around for only a few decades, as opposed to what makes them (atoms) which can be around for trillions of years.

*I'm the only one who knows how my body feels.*
As the laws of physics precludes us from getting younger, why should we be worried about getting older?
*As for the purpose of living then you are free to make up your own mind.*
I've read that the purpose of life (for instance) is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
So we are merely part of a process.
One explanation among many, but I'll consider it.
		
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The whole purpose of this thread is Getting old and how do we feel.

Theres so much you have written that I honestly do not no where to start.
First bold point, you know things that people who are elderly have yet to learn. 😳 yet younger people have learned things that you have not learned because you have not walked in there shoes or wheelchairs.
second bold point. so it’s down to experience etc. and a great deal of reading and debating etc. your experiences are yours and other peoples are there’s. So why are you right and they are wrong. Why what you have read is right yet what they have read is wrong?
third bold point. I,m the only one who knows how my body feels. Totally agree with that. But Fragger told you point blank how his body nearly packed up on him yet it was questioned. Eh 😳 surely bold point one “ where you know things” would tell you not to question that. Not only that Bold point one, where exactly does “ elderly “ start. Or should elderly read experience as I pointed out in bold point 2.
Bold point 4 “ As for the purpose etc etc” people are free to make up there own mind and you question it? That’s fine but a lot of your discussion is based upon the books of a guy called Richard Dawkins. Ave never heard of him so a quick bit of reading shows he is a three times divorced guy who has one kid. He is a rubbish in relationships and is a poor shag (or has a low sperm count) and is an atheist. 😳. So how does he even come into a discussion of getting old and how do we feel.
He is growing old, lonely and won’t have god to turn to. Yet he is central to you point of view.
personally reading you views On growing old, I feel it is like asking a vegetarian how to cook a beef brisket on a BBQ. And for that I will ask Beezerk and and not Dick Dawkins.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 21, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			I imagine him to be just a humble person with an average brain who has found employment as an evolutionary biologist.
So what specifically are you referring to: The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene or what?
		
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I suspect you already realise,  but the opinion I expressed was one such that I'm unlikely to bother justifying it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Loving the way you link age with wisdom in that one sentence you’ve confirmed what someone else posted… arrogance personified.
		
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It generally follows: of course, there are exceptions, either way.

And having an opinion, strongly held, isn't arrogance. Arrogance is  when 
the holder of one  opinion deems that holders of other opinions aren't entitled to, or their rights don't matter.

Stef hasn't espoused that.


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## Hobbit (Dec 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It generally follows: of course, there are exceptions, either way.

And having an opinion, strongly held, isn't arrogance. Arrogance is  when
the holder of one  opinion deems that holders of other opinions aren't entitled to, or their rights don't matter.

Stef hasn't espoused that.
		
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Maybe you miss the nuance. The opinion isn’t the issue, it’s the statement that age equates to more knowledge than someone younger.

The ‘presumptuous claim, assumption or belief’ that I am more knowledgeable than you because of my age is arrogant.


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## stefanovic (Dec 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			First bold point, you know things that people who are elderly have yet to learn.
		
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I said: As I'm over 70 I know things that people who are *not *elderly have yet to learn.



			second bold point. so it’s down to experience etc. and a great deal of reading and debating etc. your experiences are yours and other peoples are there’s. So why are you right and they are wrong. Why what you have read is right yet what they have read is wrong?
		
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Unintelligible.
Why, for instance, when I'm always willing to learn do I think I'm right and others are wrong?
I can learn a great deal from younger people.



			third bold point. I,m the only one who knows how my body feels. Totally agree with that. But Fragger told you point blank how his body nearly packed up on him yet it was questioned. Eh 😳 surely bold point one “ where you know things” would tell you not to question that. Not only that Bold point one, where exactly does “ elderly “ start. Or should elderly read experience as I pointed out in bold point 2.
		
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Elderly is classed (by the NHS) as 65-74. Over that age you are classed as late elderly.
I assume they base it on the average age of your cells.
Your body is a colony of 37 trillion different types of cells (by one estimate) but it could be a lot more.
This will include many cancer cells. So be careful not to indulge in, for example, over eating, smoking, drinking.



			Bold point 4 “ As for the purpose etc etc” people are free to make up there own mind and you question it? That’s fine but a lot of your discussion is based upon the books of a guy called Richard Dawkins. *Ave never heard of him* so a quick bit of reading shows he is a three times divorced guy who has one kid. He is a rubbish in relationships and is a poor shag (or has a low sperm count) and is an atheist. 😳. So *how does he even come into a discussion of getting old* and how do we feel.
He is growing old, lonely and won’t have god to turn to. Yet he is central to you point of view.
personally reading you views On growing old, I feel it is like asking a vegetarian how to cook a beef brisket on a BBQ. And for that I will ask Beezerk and and not Dick Dawkins.
		
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So despite never having never heard of him you are quick to find fault.
He is 80 next year but his mind is still sharp. His latest book was published this year, called Books Do Furnish A Life.
I could provide a very long list of people who have influenced me.
2 others I've already mentioned are Desmond Morris from the field of zoology and Peter Atkins from physical chemistry.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			How on Earth have we ended up discussing God, atheism, atoms………….?
		
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Nothing new BB. The majority of threads on here going off track is usual but this one seems worse than the majority. Perhaps directly proportional to some posters who have their own agenda,


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Nothing new BB. The majority of threads on here going off track is usual but this one seems worse than the majority. Perhaps directly proportional to some posters who have their own agenda,
		
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As the subject matter is 'Getting Old' I assume we all have some kind of agenda on it.  We all get older from the moment of birth and along the way will form some kind of view/projection as to how the journey may act out.   

Vive la difference!


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## RichA (Dec 23, 2021)

Dad will be 90 in a couple of months. He's been retired for 30 years. 
He walks in the forest every day, goes driving for days out and meals with friends, enjoys cooking, drinking wine, beer and whisky and only recently quit cycling. 
He loves life but doesn't dwell on death. Having said that, he says he'd rather check out falling off a ladder or having a clutcher in the forest than fading away in a hospital bed like his father or a nursing home like my mum. 
I hope my genes are as robust as his.


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## stefanovic (Dec 23, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We all get older from the moment of birth and along the way will form some kind of view/projection as to how the journey may act out.
		
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While we don't get younger our brains and bodies start to grow until we are in our 20's at least. Then the brain changes and our cells aren't replaced like they were.
There are many reasons for this and it's mainly down to the entropy of the body.
When we are born the body is in a state of low entropy before it moves to more complexity, then ending in a high entropy state which means the body becomes increasingly disordered.
This may lead to deadly diseases such as cancer and Alzheimer's. Ultimately something will kill you. Someone has calculated there are about 8,000 different ways to die.

So how worried should you be?
There was a time not so long ago when cancer would mean the end of you.
There is now an increasing probability you will survive. In that case the best time to have ever lived is now.
Drugs to combat Alzheimer's are being developed. Is that bad news?

The options you take should be good ones if you want to improve your health span.
Health span may end a lot earlier than life span.
In old age try different types of exercise.
I'm going to say any aerobic exercise such as walking.
Playing golf 3 times a week is good. It combines aerobic exercise with the use of muscles and some twisting of the body, but be sure to carry your clubs.
Yoga helps with flexibility. Tai chi is good for circulation.

Tai chi (and its grandparent Qigong) gets a big recommendation from a Nobel prize winning molecular biologist in a book called The Telomere Effect.
It is supposed to aid the production of telomerase to protect your cells. This will help you live longer.
The Harvard Medical School have also published a book on Tai chi.
This is an area formerly classed as pseudoscience but now becoming mainstream


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## RichA (Dec 23, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Playing golf 3 times a week is good. It combines aerobic exercise with the use of muscles and some twisting of the body, but *be sure to carry you clubs*.
		
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I skimmed and ignored most of your post but noticed this. I'm pretty sure that carrying your clubs has a negligible health benefit, as long as you're walking rather than riding a buggy. Experience tells me that when I carry a full set it's not doing my back and knees any good.


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## arnieboy (Dec 23, 2021)

If I had to carry my clubs I would probably pack in the sport.


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			If I had to carry my clubs I would probably pack in the sport.
		
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I’ve been carrying my regular pairs partner for years. So 14 clubs should not cause me too many issues.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			While we don't get younger our brains and bodies start to grow until we are in our 20's at least. Then the brain changes and our cells aren't replaced like they were.
There are many reasons for this and it's mainly down to the entropy of the body.
When we are born the body is in a state of low entropy before it moves to more complexity, then ending in a high entropy state which means the body becomes increasingly disordered.
This may lead to deadly diseases such as cancer and Alzheimer's. Ultimately something will kill you. Someone has calculated there are about 8,000 different ways to die.

So how worried should you be?
There was a time not so long ago when cancer would mean the end of you.
There is now an increasing probability you will survive. In that case the best time to have ever lived is now.
Drugs to combat Alzheimer's are being developed. Is that bad news?

The options you take should be good ones if you want to improve your health span.
Health span may end a lot earlier than life span.
In old age try different types of exercise.
I'm going to say any aerobic exercise such as walking.
Playing golf 3 times a week is good. It combines aerobic exercise with the use of muscles and some twisting of the body, but be sure to carry your clubs.
Yoga helps with flexibility. Tai chi is good for circulation.

Tai chi (and its grandparent Qigong) gets a big recommendation from a Nobel prize winning molecular biologist in a book called The Telomere Effect.
It is supposed to aid the production of telomerase to protect your cells. This will help you live longer.
The Harvard Medical School have also published a book on Tai chi.
This is an area formerly classed as pseudoscience but now becoming mainstream
		
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Thanks for the unsolicited advice but I don't really need it and it's not particularly relevent to my post.

I'm over 70, play golf three times a week, don't use an electric trolly or buggy, I keep myself reasonably healthy and strong, I do strength building exercises and am an avid hill walker.  Fortunately I've managed to inherit some good genes that have prevented me from undergoing any serious surgery so far.  Keep looking after yourself and enjoy whatever journey you have before you.


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## stefanovic (Dec 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm over 70, play golf three times a week, don't use an electric trolly or buggy, I keep myself reasonably healthy and strong, I do strength building exercises and am an avid hill walker.
		
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Then I assume you pull a trolley.
The point about carrying your own clubs is that it's weight bearing on your bones and that is believed to be good. You will also burn more calories.
BTW, I'm also an avid hill walker having done all the Wainwrights in the Lakes, all the Nuttalls in England and Wales and 80 Munros and Corbetts in Scotland.



			Fortunately I've managed to inherit some good genes that have prevented me from undergoing any serious surgery so far.
		
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How do you know it's your genes? It could be you have a healthy lifestyle.
I'm sure we don't want to go back to the old nature v nurture argument.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 24, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Then I assume you pull a trolley.
The point about carrying your own clubs is that it's weight bearing on your bones and that is believed to be good. You will also burn more calories.
BTW, I'm also an avid hill walker having done all the Wainwrights in the Lakes, all the Nuttalls in England and Wales and 80 Munros and Corbetts in Scotland.

How do you know it's your genes? It could be you have a healthy lifestyle.
I'm sure we don't want to go back to the old nature v nurture argument.
		
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Stef
You need to be careful about how you advocate  walking for others. It can sound that that is what all golfers should do.
It might be better to suggest that fit 70 yr olds with no health issues would benefit from carrying, whilst acknowledging that many of that age and over, who enjoy golf, are not physically capable of carrying precisely because of health issues. 
For the, if it was carrying or nothing, it would be nothing.
I played squash at 62, now more than a dozen years later, I need a buggy for 18 holes because of one specific condition. Precautionary, but if the worst thing happened it could stop me playing ( and doing other things) , period.

Everybody knows carrying is more beneficial than trolleying ( for those who can) for the reasons you give. It's common sense, and not necessary to give a physiology lesson. Not all appreciate it!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Then I assume you pull a trolley.
*The point about carrying your own clubs is that it's weight bearing on your bones and that is believed to be good. You will also burn more calories.*
BTW, I'm also an avid hill walker having done all the Wainwrights in the Lakes, all the Nuttalls in England and Wales and 80 Munros and Corbetts in Scotland.

How do you know it's your genes? It could be you have a healthy lifestyle.
I'm sure we don't want to go back to the old nature v nurture argument.
		
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You quoted the NHS earlier on in a reply to me.
Here is another quote from the NHS site
*Older adults*
Examples of activities for active older adults include:


*walking*
lifting weights or using resistance bands
some impact activities like running, jumping or skipping
If you're not very active, these activities may help:


walking
stair climbing
strength exercises at home
I would imaging walking 2-3 miles 9 holes, or 5-6 miles 18 holes would cover that Without putting excess strain on some individuals.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Then I assume you pull a trolley.
The point about carrying your own clubs is that it's weight bearing on your bones and that is believed to be good. You will also burn more calories.
BTW, I'm also an avid hill walker having done all the Wainwrights in the Lakes, all the Nuttalls in England and Wales and 80 Munros and Corbetts in Scotland.

How do you know it's your genes? It could be you have a healthy lifestyle.
I'm sure we don't want to go back to the old nature v nurture argument.
		
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My parents and their families have lived well into their nineties and have been healthy, I am not aware of any of them running or visiting a gym.

What makes you think I don't carry a golf bag.  I either carry or push depending on the course conditions. Also I burn plenty of calories thanks.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It depends…in my world I have a God - it may be of my understanding…and may not be the sort of God that atheists and agnostics _think_ I should or might believe in.  But they don’t believe in God anyway, therefore can’t define what they don’t believe exists, and so I consider them to be in no position to tell me that the God that _I _believe in doesn’t exist.  Besides, I can’t really describe _my_ God either, other than it is a God of love; and a God that tries to guide me to do the right thing rather than what _I_ might _want_ to do.  But that’s just me, and with that I am comfortable.
		
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Reminds me of the old story about the Insomniac Dyslexic Agnostic, who lay awake all night wondering if there really was a Dog.
The old ones are the best, I'll get my coat, vest/ simmet


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## Voyager EMH (Dec 24, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Reminds me of the old story about the Insomniac Dyslexic Agnostic, who lay awake all night wondering if there really was a Dog.
The old ones are the best, I'll get my *coat, vest/ simmet *

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Jaykit?


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## williamalex1 (Dec 24, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Jaykit?
		
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Straight or working?


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 24, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Straight or working? 

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Smoking? or potato?

Going left field here, possibly veering towards word association football


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## Voyager EMH (Dec 25, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Straight or working? 

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Whatever goes with yer trooz.


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