# Is It Time To Ban The Isle of Man TT Races?



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2016)

Sad to see 2 more riders were killed yesterday during the TT races.

This bring this years death toll to 5, The headlines this morning are full of videos and pictures if mindless moron's fighting in France over a sport, a horse dies in the Grand National and Animal Rights are up in arms,  a F1 driver dies and it's world headlines, yet we allow Motorcyclists to be killed on the roads of The Isle of Man every year under the same banner of sport.
I love the TT Races and watch it every year, but sadly I now think it's got to the point were something drastic has to be done.
A very sad and avoidable waste of lives.


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## freddielong (Jun 11, 2016)

Road racing is very dangerous it is not just the TT that they die in, are you calling for a total ban on road races.

Billy Redmayne who looked to be a future TT star died in Morecambe but it is what they love doing and they know the risks.


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## Snelly (Jun 11, 2016)

What a load of cobblers. 

A sad and avoidable waste of life?   You make it sound like the conscripted masses being asked to go over the top in the WW1 trenches.  

Everyone in the races would give anything to be there, fully understanding the risks involved.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2016)

Definitely should be banned. There's no way the organisers can make the circuit safe on a par with the likes of Donnington and Silverstone. They can't even get the medics to crash sites in a reasonable time.

Plenty of the top riders, i.e. experts, won't race there.

Maybe it had a place in the sport when bikes were a lot slower but that was a long, long time ago.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2016)

Paul, I don't get it but people I know who are into bikes treat it like a trip to Mecca. Seems madness to four wheel people like myself.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2016)

Once again we get the same ignorant responses from some people, if you read what I posted I stated I enjoy it, I totally understand the risks, I am talking about 1 event, simply asked the question is it time to take drastic action. Any death in a SPORT whilst completely understanding the risks is sad and avoidable.
Some people should answer the post rather than the poster, linking it to WW1 is ridiculous

Agree Martin, I have mates that go every year and they are quite certain that some of the deaths are down to the quality of the rider.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2016)

Presumably it is regulated? You would have thought the governing body would have been held to account for the numerous deaths over the years. When F1 has a tragedy there is an inquest and changes happen.


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## freddielong (Jun 11, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Once again we get the same ignorant responses from some people, if you read what I posted I stated I enjoy it, I totally understand the risks, I am talking about 1 event, simply asked the question is it time to take drastic action. Any death in a SPORT whilst completely understanding the risks is sad and avoidable.
Some people should answer the post rather than the poster, linking it to WW1 is ridiculous

Agree Martin, I have mates that go every year and they are quite certain that some of the deaths are down to the quality of the rider.
		
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I live in the Isle of Man and have been around and talked with he fans who come over every year, I have watched the races more times than I can remember so please don't make out I do not know what I am talking about.

You cannot ban something just because it is dangerous.


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## Snelly (Jun 11, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Once again we get the same ignorant responses from some people, if you read what I posted I stated I enjoy it, I totally understand the risks, I am talking about 1 event, simply asked the question is it time to take drastic action. Any death in a SPORT whilst completely understanding the risks is sad and avoidable.
Some people should answer the post rather than the poster, linking it to WW1 is ridiculous

Agree Martin, I have mates that go every year and they are quite certain that some of the deaths are down to the quality of the rider.
		
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Very noble, but who are you to say something should be banned?   What else is on your list that millions enjoy but you feel should be outlawed?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Sad to see 2 more riders were killed yesterday during the TT races.

This bring this years death toll to 5, The headlines this morning are full of videos and pictures if mindless moron's fighting in France over a sport, a horse dies in the Grand National and Animal Rights are up in arms,  a F1 driver dies and it's world headlines, yet we allow Motorcyclists to be killed on the roads of The Isle of Man every year under the same banner of sport.
I love the TT Races and watch it every year, but sadly I now think it's got to the point were something drastic has to be done.
A very sad and avoidable waste of lives.
		
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With all due respect paul, WE don't allow motorcyclists to be killed every year on the Isle of Man, they choose to participate themselves, they are as closely monitored and aided as is possible and they all know the risks, but they consider it the Holy Grail of motorcycling and the purest form of racing.  Who are we to deny them that choice; and where do we stop?   

if you want to talk about a sad and avoidable waste of life, lets start raising the standard of driving in the UK so that the ordinary, average motorcyclist is safer; in 2013 (probably the most recent year for which statistics are available), 331 motorcyclists were killed and 4,866 seriously injured, the majority of which will be involved in accidents involving cars who didn't see them (or couldn't be bothered to look).

Out of interest Paul, do you ride a motorbike?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 11, 2016)

I used to be into bikes and I've been to both the TT and the Manx GP. The year I went to the TT 1 racer and 1 civvie died (on mad Sunday)

The important thing to remember is these guys are doing it because they want to. Every death is met with the response from peers that they died doing what they love.

I don't want to see sportsmen die but it is their choice.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Very noble, but who are you to say something should be banned?   What else is on your list that millions enjoy but you feel should be outlawed?
		
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Read the post, simply asked the question, again, I enjoy it watched races all over Europe, one of the guys that died yesterday was a 58yr old man from up here riding a side car with his son, yes he probably died doing something he loved, but it's not a one off, it's year after year and surely something has to be done and all options should be on the table.
Talking about what is enjoyed by millions you've made it quite clear on here you'd ban the PL and football without batting an eyelid.


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## North Mimms (Jun 11, 2016)

Bit like the NW200 in Northern Ireland.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2016)

freddielong said:



			I live in the Isle of Man and have been around and talked with he fans who come over every year, I have watched the races more times than I can remember so please don't make out I do not know what I am talking about.

You cannot ban something just because it is dangerous.
		
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Wasn't aimed at you, but yes you can ban something that is dangerous if they can foxhunting for gods sake I'm sure they could, if that was the decision, ban 1 bike event.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			With all due respect paul, WE don't allow motorcyclists to be killed every year on the Isle of Man, they choose to participate themselves, they are as closely monitored and aided as is possible and they all know the risks, but they consider it the Holy Grail of motorcycling and the purest form of racing.  Who are we to deny them that choice; and where do we stop?   

if you want to talk about a sad and avoidable waste of life, lets start raising the standard of driving in the UK so that the ordinary, average motorcyclist is safer; in 2013 (probably the most recent year for which statistics are available), 331 motorcyclists were killed and 4,866 seriously injured, the majority of which will be involved in accidents involving cars who didn't see them (or couldn't be bothered to look).

Out of interest Paul, do you ride a motorbike?
		
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I'm not against bikes, no I don't have a license, yes been all over Europe watching it, Donnington, Spa, Hockenheim, Am Nurburing, I am talking about this one event, I understand they are doing what they love, seriously, what No is unacceptable, 6/7/10/15 or is it irrelevant as it's their choice?


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Once again we get the same ignorant responses from some people, if you read what I posted I stated I enjoy it, I totally understand the risks, I am talking about 1 event, simply asked the question is it time to take drastic action. Any death in a SPORT whilst completely understanding the risks is sad and avoidable.
Some people should answer the post rather than the poster, linking it to WW1 is ridiculous

Agree Martin, I have mates that go every year and they are quite certain that some of the deaths are down to the quality of the rider.
		
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OK, you enjoy it, you think you understand the risks. If you are happy taking the risk of killing yourself, fine. Make sure you carry a donor card. 

Do you think it is also reasonable to expect society to pay to (literally) scrape you off the road, airlift you to the nearest trauma centre and pay for several weeks of intensive care?


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## freddielong (Jun 11, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I'm not against bikes, no I don't have a license, yes been all over Europe watching it, Donnington, Spa, Hockenheim, Am Nurburing, I am talking about this one event, I understand they are doing what they love, seriously, what No is unacceptable, 6/7/10/15 or is it irrelevant as it's their choice?
		
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I think it's the fact that you are singling one event out when people die racing all over the world every year. 

We have another road racing event called the southern 100 it's not as well know as the TT but can attract top racers  (Guy Martin has competed a few times) there is usually at least one fatallity every year and one year there were six deaths.

I think if their are any calls to ban the TT it should be down to the number of fan deaths ( not during racing) there is usually at least 3 a year.


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## freddielong (Jun 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			OK, you enjoy it, you think you understand the risks. If you are happy taking the risk of killing yourself, fine. Make sure you carry a donor card. 

Do you think it is also reasonable to expect society to pay to (literally) scrape you off the road, airlift you to the nearest trauma centre and pay for several weeks of intensive care?
		
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Ask anyone who smokes the same question  (obviously not the same question the scraping you off the road bit etc, but the immensely expensive health care required for something so self inflicted)


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## Piece (Jun 11, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Sad to see 2 more riders were killed yesterday during the TT races.

This bring this years death toll to 5, The headlines this morning are full of videos and pictures if mindless moron's fighting in France over a sport, a horse dies in the Grand National and Animal Rights are up in arms,  a F1 driver dies and it's world headlines, yet we allow Motorcyclists to be killed on the roads of The Isle of Man every year under the same banner of sport.
I love the TT Races and watch it every year, but sadly I now think it's got to the point were something drastic has to be done.
A very sad and avoidable waste of lives.
		
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I understand why this post was written. It is sad but I think the term 'avoidable' is wrong in that the event is as safe as it could be without diluting the occasion, the riders not being killed due to faults in the organisation. It is racing at the limit and the riders embrace it.


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2016)

freddielong said:



			Ask anyone who smokes the same question  (obviously not the same question the scraping you off the road bit etc, but the immensely expensive health care required for something so self inflicted)
		
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You are right. The same broad question applies to parachute jumpers, out of condition 5K runners or Sunday league footballers, people who eat, smoke or drink too much, but there are a range of different issues applying to some of those. Smokers pay a large amount of extra tax and duty to the state for the privilege of smoking (see also drinking). Bikers don't.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are right. The same broad question applies to parachute jumpers, out of condition 5K runners or Sunday league footballers, people who eat, smoke or drink too much, but there are a range of different issues applying to some of those. Smokers pay a large amount of extra tax and duty to the state for the privilege of smoking (see also drinking). Bikers don't.
		
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I guess the issue is, where do we draw the line at what is acceptable and what isn't? All the things listed above are dangerous, you could possibly include sex as well as plenty of people have died of heart attacks.

How sterile do we want to make our lives? There needs to be some fun and the bottom line is the TT riders are doing it through choice.


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I guess the issue is, where do we draw the line at what is acceptable and what isn't? All the things listed above are dangerous, you could possibly include sex as well as plenty of people have died of heart attacks.

How sterile do we want to make our lives? There needs to be some fun and the bottom line is the TT riders are doing it through choice.
		
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Sure they are doing it through choice but exercising choice involve taking responsibility too. The NHS can choose not to give you a liver transplant if you have knackered the first one through alcohol. It was foreseeable. Rattling around country roads at speed with a thin helmet covering your brain carries a foreseeable risk too.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 11, 2016)

Riders choice, I don't watch it bit squeamish. Take away the out let and what would happen? 
Also I know we saw a death in the the MotoGP but we often see cyclists falling off and walking away. Which really rarely happens on the road.
Not sure why bikes have to be so fast though....


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## shewy (Jun 11, 2016)

You would have to ban every form of road racing not just the TT as there are fatality's in nearly all of them at some point. Personally I have no problem with it, they know the risks and probably the costs are covered by the insurance policy they must have (I'm guessing there), yes it's sad but a moto GP2 rider died 2 weeks ago, a GP rider died last year, so we ban that also? People have died playing football, probably more deaths in football than motor racing do we also ban that, also while were at it lets ban all equestrian events as I've seen lots of broken bones and a few fatalities at that as well.
I don't want to live in a nanny state which dictates what I can and can't do.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2016)

shewy said:



			You would have to ban every form of road racing not just the TT as there are fatality's in nearly all of them at some point. Personally I have no problem with it, they know the risks and probably the costs are covered by the insurance policy they must have (I'm guessing there), yes it's sad but a moto GP2 rider died 2 weeks ago, a GP rider died last year, so we ban that also? People have died playing football, probably more deaths in football than motor racing do we also ban that, also while were at it lets ban all equestrian events as I've seen lots of broken bones and a few fatalities at that as well.
I don't want to live in a nanny state which dictates what I can and can't do.
		
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Bit of a difference between 5 deaths at the TT and one in a full season at WSB or Moto GP. 

Slide down the road at a purpose built circuit is one thing, whereas high kerbs and dry stone walls are a different matter.

There is a whole host of very good reasons why the TT doesn't form part of any of the major race series anymore.


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## freddielong (Jun 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Bit of a difference between 5 deaths at the TT and one in a full season at WSB or Moto GP. 

Slide down the road at a purpose built circuit is one thing, whereas high kerbs and dry stone walls are a different matter.

There is a whole host of very good reasons why the TT doesn't form part of any of the major race series anymore.
		
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That is true which again means the only people who race want to race, they no longer have to to give them the chance to win the world title.

Most road racing involves walls roads and kerbs that is not unusual to the Isle of Man.

A lot has been made this year of the deaths of two young riders who where expected to be at the TT and died at other road circuits in the months preceeding the TT, so deaths in road racing is not unique to the Isle of Man, in fact Joey Dunlop one of the TT greats died racing in northern island.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 11, 2016)

freddielong said:



			That is true which again means the only people who race want to race, they no longer have to to give them the chance to win the world title.

Most road racing involves walls roads and kerbs that is not unusual to the Isle of Man.

A lot has been made this year of the deaths of two young riders who where expected to be at the TT and died at other road circuits in the months preceeding the TT, so deaths in road racing is not unique to the Isle of Man, in fact Joey Dunlop one of the TT greats died racing in* Estonia *&#8203;.




			I agree. Since 1976 nobody has been forced to race there.

As for "allowing" people to race, surely there is risk in so many sports and pastimes and provided these are known to (willing) participants it is for the racer to decide.
		
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## freddielong (Jun 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:





freddielong said:



			That is true which again means the only people who race want to race, they no longer have to to give them the chance to win the world title.

Most road racing involves walls roads and kerbs that is not unusual to the Isle of Man.

A lot has been made this year of the deaths of two young riders who where expected to be at the TT and died at other road circuits in the months preceeding the TT, so deaths in road racing is not unique to the Isle of Man, in fact Joey Dunlop one of the TT greats died racing in* Estonia *&#8203;.
		
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Sorry it was Estonia had it in my head it was Northern Ireland doesn't change the point though, he didn't die at the TT despite competing for many years.
		
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## pokerjoke (Jun 11, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			With all due respect paul, WE don't allow motorcyclists to be killed every year on the Isle of Man, they choose to participate themselves, they are as closely monitored and aided as is possible and they all know the risks, but they consider it the Holy Grail of motorcycling and the purest form of racing.  Who are we to deny them that choice; and where do we stop?   

if you want to talk about a sad and avoidable waste of life, lets start raising the standard of driving in the UK so that the ordinary, average motorcyclist is safer; in 2013 (probably the most recent year for which statistics are available), 331 motorcyclists were killed and 4,866 seriously injured, the majority of which will be involved in accidents involving cars who didn't see them (or couldn't be bothered to look).

Out of interest Paul, do you ride a motorbike?
		
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Your first point is fine but your second is not imo.

How do you know people couldn't be bothered to look that's just speculation on your part.

Just recently I have had at least 4 bikes go past me at well over a 100 miles an hour.
I saw 2 but not the others and to be honest there was not much risk on there part as they were fairly straight roads,however my point would be if they take risks on straight roads at high speeds who knows what they do on windy roads.

Blaming car users for all bike accidents or deaths is just nieve although I'm sure that was not what you meant exactly.


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			if you want to talk about a sad and avoidable waste of life, lets start raising the standard of driving in the UK so that the ordinary, average motorcyclist is safer; in 2013 (probably the most recent year for which statistics are available), 331 motorcyclists were killed and 4,866 seriously injured, the majority of which will be involved in accidents involving cars who didn't see them (or couldn't be bothered to look).
		
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This comment is pretty unfair, as a car/pickup driver I always look hard, if you cant see a bike you cant see it, I would take issue with bikers travelling at crazy speeds, overtaking on bends, applying mad acceleration forces to do that nipping between cars thing they all seem to do, overtaking between lanes of stationery cars and sitting 1 metre behind the car whilst prowling for the next unsafe overtake. Many dont wear high viz either.
I rode a bike for a while in my twenties and stopped because I figured I'd end up in a crash, didn't feel I was a good enough rider, I have seen it from both sides and the bikers in my view are every bit as culpable in accidents as 4 wheel vehicle or lorry drivers.
The police allow some routes to be biker zones - Aberdeen up Deeside down to Blairgowrie being one I know, there are beware bike signs all over and its chosen because its so twisty and the bikers like that and go as fast as they like and never ever get stopped by police...fact. It like go here and drive as you wish.
As for TT I cant comment, never been and as others have said they know the risks, maybe there should be an insurance requirement in place for participants over and above their normal bike insurance, premiums would need to be awfully high methinks given the appauling accident stats.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I'm not against bikes, no I don't have a license, yes been all over Europe watching it, Donnington, Spa, Hockenheim, Am Nurburing, I am talking about this one event, I understand they are doing what they love, seriously, what No is unacceptable, 6/7/10/15 or is it irrelevant as it's their choice?
		
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Fair enough mate, I only ask because a lot of people don't get or understand bikes and consequently want them banned or have a prejudicial view about them, just trying to get some perspective on your viewpoint.

As to the number, it is irrelevant to me as it is their choice to participate, they're big boys, they know the risks.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Your first point is fine but your second is not imo.

How do you know people couldn't be bothered to look that's just speculation on your part.

Just recently I have had at least 4 bikes go past me at well over a 100 miles an hour.
I saw 2 but not the others and to be honest there was not much risk on there part as they were fairly straight roads,however my point would be if they take risks on straight roads at high speeds who knows what they do on windy roads.

Blaming car users for all bike accidents or deaths is just nieve although I'm sure that was not what you meant exactly.
		
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maxfli65 said:



			This comment is pretty unfair, as a car/pickup driver I always look hard, if you cant see a bike you cant see it, I would take issue with bikers travelling at crazy speeds, overtaking on bends, applying mad acceleration forces to do that nipping between cars thing they all seem to do, overtaking between lanes of stationery cars and sitting 1 metre behind the car whilst prowling for the next unsafe overtake. Many dont wear high viz either.
I rode a bike for a while in my twenties and stopped because I figured I'd end up in a crash, didn't feel I was a good enough rider, I have seen it from both sides and the bikers in my view are every bit as culpable in accidents as 4 wheel vehicle or lorry drivers.
		
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No it's not just speculation on my part, it's something I came across daily riding a motorbike at work and dealing with the incidents caused by the standards of driving.  This makes interesting reading;

http://www.mc-ams.co.uk/blog/accident-statistics-ugly-overview/

At no point in that post did I say that car drivers were responsible for all motorbike accidents. Some motorcyclists are their own (and other motorcyclists) worst enemy and I have no sympathy for those that are responsible for their own downfall, but the majority, in my experience and opinion, are not.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2016)

BiM - I live near a Roman road much loved by bikers, A697 in Northumberland. I see many lunatic motorcyclists and it is never a surprise when another death appears on the local news. Equally I shudder at how often car drivers pull out at a junction nearly taking out a motorcyclist. Motorcyclists are just so fragile, no cage to cushion and protect them. I guess that is part of the problem with the TT, when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 11, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			This comment is pretty unfair, as a car/pickup driver I always look hard, if you cant see a bike you cant see it, I would take issue with bikers travelling at crazy speeds, overtaking on bends, applying mad acceleration forces to do that nipping between cars thing they all seem to do, overtaking between lanes of stationery cars and sitting 1 metre behind the car whilst prowling for the next unsafe overtake. Many dont wear high viz either.
I rode a bike for a while in my twenties and stopped because I figured I'd end up in a crash, didn't feel I was a good enough rider, I have seen it from both sides and the bikers in my view are every bit as culpable in accidents as 4 wheel vehicle or lorry drivers.
The police allow some routes to be biker zones - Aberdeen up Deeside down to Blairgowrie being one I know, there are beware bike signs all over and its chosen because its so twisty and the bikers like that and go as fast as they like and never ever get stopped by police...fact. It like go here and drive as you wish.
As for TT I cant comment, never been and as others have said they know the risks, maybe there should be an insurance requirement in place for participants over and above their normal bike insurance, premiums would need to be awfully high methinks given the appauling accident stats.
		
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Your comment seems to suggest that you resent the motorcyclist' greater manoeuvrability and facility for not being held up in traffic.

At 67 I no longer ride but in the past I experienced car drivers pulling into my path through traffic jams and shouting abuse at me all because I was able to keep moving whilst they could not.

Their actions could best be described as childish if it were not for the fact that they were dangerous.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			BiM - I live near a Roman road much loved by bikers, A697 in Northumberland. I see many lunatic motorcyclists and it is never a surprise when another death appears on the local news. Equally I shudder at how often car drivers pull out at a junction nearly taking out a motorcyclist. Motorcyclists are just so fragile, no cage to cushion and protect them. I guess that is part of the problem with the TT, when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.
		
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Spot on!

There's old bikers, but not old bold bikers. I rode from '77 to '13, the last accident, on ice, was in '82. In the last few years I had a number of drivers pull out in front of me a year, rather than the odd one a year. 

Track days were where I had fun, where there's room if you get it wrong. Country road twisties isn't really the place to do it. At least at the TT they don't get cars coming the other way.


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## Andy (Jun 11, 2016)

As Steve Parish says, speed does not kill. Slowing down in time does. Every single rider knows the risks and accepts the challenge of the road racing circuit.

You cannot compare Road racing to BSB, WSBK or even MotoGP, it's two entirely different beasts.

Plus to gain your race licence for the TT or even the NW200 is a test in itself, you don't just turn up. You have to prove you can ride at speed and maintain that speed.

Let the racing continue.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			OK, you enjoy it, you think you understand the risks. If you are happy taking the risk of killing yourself, fine. Make sure you carry a donor card. 

Do you think it is also reasonable to expect society to pay to (literally) scrape you off the road, airlift you to the nearest trauma centre and pay for several weeks of intensive care?
		
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As I understand it, competitors contribute towards their own medical costs via the ACU.  I think you'll find the fans chip in a bit as well;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-28164803

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-23464025



Ethan said:



			You are right. The same broad question applies to parachute jumpers, out of condition 5K runners or Sunday league footballers, people who eat, smoke or drink too much, but there are a range of different issues applying to some of those. Smokers pay a large amount of extra tax and duty to the state for the privilege of smoking (see also drinking). Bikers don't.
		
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I think you'll find that bikers pay VAT on the cost of their machines and parts so they do pay extra tax to the state.  They may also make a contribution as smokers or drinkers, so I'm not sure that argument holds water.

While we are discussing the economics, should we not factor in the VAT or other duty on the cost of hotel rooms, meals, drinks, petrol and anything else that the IoM TT causes to go into the Chancellor's coffers before we condemn it to death on the basis that it costs the NHS too much? If there's a case for banning it because it's bringing the NHS to its knees single-handedly fair enough, but I'm not sure that the economics would support your case.


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Your comment seems to suggest that you resent the motorcyclist' greater manoeuvrability and facility for not being held up in traffic.

At 67 I no longer ride but in the past I experienced car drivers pulling into my path through traffic jams and shouting abuse at me all because I was able to keep moving whilst they could not.

Their actions could best be described as childish if it were not for the fact that they were dangerous.
		
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No resentment at all, dont see too many bikers uo here tbh, and there is little traffic where I live in rural Scotland. I guess the shouting/abuse was in England somewhere, SE I expect?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			BiM - I live near a Roman road much loved by bikers, A697 in Northumberland. I see many lunatic motorcyclists and it is never a surprise when another death appears on the local news. Equally I shudder at how often car drivers pull out at a junction nearly taking out a motorcyclist. Motorcyclists are just so fragile, no cage to cushion and protect them. I guess that is part of the problem with the TT, when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.
		
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LT, can't argue with any of that.  As you say, the motorcyclist is the most vulnerable party physically & will always come off worse.  Given the speeds involved at the TT and the lack of run off areas it's almost inevitable that it will end in tears if it goes wrong, but the circumstances that lead to that are part of the appeal to the participants, and it is their choice.


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## SammmeBee (Jun 11, 2016)

Yes - complete joke.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 11, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			No resentment at all, dont see too many bikers uo here tbh, and there is little traffic where I live in rural Scotland. I guess the shouting/abuse was in England somewhere, SE I expect?
		
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Central Scotland!


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## Oddsocks (Jun 11, 2016)

As a keen motorcycle fan of all forms, I question how long it will continue for.

I don't think interest will ever die because of its history, it will be health and safety that stop it, or a massive hike in insurance costs.  At the very worst of it is unable to obtain insurance it will die there and then!


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## freddielong (Jun 11, 2016)

Oddsocks said:



			As a keen motorcycle fan of all forms, I question how long it will continue for.

I don't think interest will ever die because of its history, it will be health and safety that stop it, or a massive hike in insurance costs.  At the very worst of it is unable to obtain insurance it will die there and then!
		
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I know the Isle of Man government are throwing  some serious money at it to make it even bigger,  l know there was initial talk of a series of races but that has been rejected but I know that they have worked very hard with the BBC on the broadcasting to raise it's profile even further.

I don't think it will stop in my lifetime.


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## JakeWS (Jun 11, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are right. The same broad question applies to parachute jumpers, out of condition 5K runners or Sunday league footballers, people who eat, smoke or drink too much, but there are a range of different issues applying to some of those. Smokers pay a large amount of extra tax and duty to the state for the privilege of smoking (see also drinking). Bikers don't.
		
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Bringing money into the equation is ridiculous, I'm sure there are many business owners on the Isle of Man paying a large amount of tax, along with the wages of workers who are employed purely to maintain these bikes, tax paid when purchasing the bike, insurance premiums etc. I don't think the cost of treating bikers in hospital for the select few bikers who require it, compared to the total number of people involved, will come even close to costing the tax payer in the long run.

http://golf.heraldtribune.com/death-by-golf-ball-not-all-that-uncommon/

Life is full of dangers, well all take them into account when making a decision to do something, as it turns out golf isn't all that safe either.


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## Mickosaigon (Jun 10, 2019)

Can't believe that "golfers" are calling for the end of the TT! What business is it of anyone's but the people who are risking their own lives?
These riders know the risks and many more people love to watch them pitting themselves against the track.
More people die from horse riding than the TT, so let's ban that as well!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2019)

Mickosaigon said:



			Can't believe that "golfers" are calling for the end of the TT! What business is it of anyone's but the people who are risking their own lives?
These riders know the risks and many more people love to watch them pitting themselves against the track.
More people die from horse riding than the TT, so let's ban that as well!!!
		
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Itâ€™s a forum, itâ€™s a debate and youâ€™ve resurrected a 3 year old thread and yes, youâ€™re correct, no golfer ever, ever ever, is or was also a motorcyclist!


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## Mickosaigon (Jun 10, 2019)

Just pointing out it is no one's business but the riders that take part, couldn't give a toss if they ride a motorcycle or play golf!


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## User62651 (Jun 10, 2019)

Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves, especially younger men who are more inclined to feel invincible when running on adrenaline and may be egged on by their peers until it's too late, machismo/bravado screening real concerns.
These people (victims) are hitting immovable object like buildings and stone dykes at crazy speeds. Is that acceptable in 2019? If you saw that happen as a spectator it'd affect you all your life.
If you want to race motorcycles what's wrong with the more controlled and safer environment of a race track with gravel pits and ample slide space if you do fall off?
I appreciate Isle of Man is not in the UK but it's still a British territory I guess. Surprised it's still allowed.

However you get guys free rock climbing and that is just as dangerous I suppose. Horses I know little about except I'm not getting on one, poor horse wouldn't thank me either.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2019)

Mickosaigon said:



			Just pointing out it is no one's business but the riders that take part, couldn't give a toss if they ride a motorcycle or play golf!
		
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Except for the Emergency Services who have to pick up the pieces and clean up after the accident! Whereâ€™s their choice?


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## Rooter (Jun 10, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves, especially younger men who are more inclined to feel invincible when running on adrenaline and may be egged on by their peers until it's too late, machismo/bravado screening real concerns.
These people (victims) are hitting immovable object like buildings and stone dykes at crazy speeds. Is that acceptable in 2019? If you saw that happen as a spectator it'd affect you all your life.
If you want to race motorcycles what's wrong with the more controlled and safer environment of a race track with gravel pits and ample slide space if you do fall off?
I appreciate Isle of Man is not in the UK but it's still a British territory I guess. Surprised it's still allowed.

However you get guys free rock climbing and that is just as dangerous I suppose. Horses I know little about except I'm not getting on one, poor horse wouldn't thank me either.

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Can't believe i missed this thread 3 years ago!

So for context, my dad used to race at the IOM TT on sidecars, so i basically had every holiday until i was 12 at the IOM. I have witnessed many people sadly lose their lives, saw a mate (not at the TT) racing go into the tyre wall, bike follow him in at about 70mph and it basically broke every bone from his hips down. He now walks again, just....

When i was 21 i started bike racing, did it for 4-5 years, never got to the TT which was a dream, but its tough debate, its easy to, i see to stand on either side of the fence, i am in the let them carry on camp, but i can respect the views of those whom think it should be banned. It is the most dangerous race in the world, but that's 75% of the challenge! 

The scary thing is, the bikes are getting quicker and quicker every year and while leathers, helmets etc are getting better too, hit something at 150mph and you are most likely going home in a box. Yes they all know the risks though!
,
Would i do it now I'm married with kids?! No chance, i personally now see it as quite selfish to risk ones self for personal pleasure/glory when you could leave 2 kids with no mum/dad... But for viewing pleasure? there is nothing more exhilarating in the world. Especially there in person, my favourite watching spot was Rhen Cullen, where the bikes come directly toward you at 150mph plus, wheelie and turn a corner while you are 2meters away..


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Except for the Emergency Services who have to pick up the pieces and clean up after the accident! Whereâ€™s their choice?
		
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As a former Emergency Service worker dealing with precisely this sort of thing Paul, my choice was when I signed up. As the old saying goes, if you canâ€™t take a joke you shouldnâ€™t have joined.

To be honest I have a far bigger issue dealing with idiots riding in shorts and T shirts who could have prevented their own injuries but insisted on exercising their rights to dress inappropriately than I would dealing with the aftermath of a racing incident.


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Definitely should be banned. There's no way the organisers can make the circuit safe on a par with the likes of Donnington and Silverstone. They can't even get the medics to crash sites in a reasonable time.

Plenty of the top riders, i.e. experts, won't race there.

Maybe it had a place in the sport when bikes were a lot slower but that was a long, long time ago.
		
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I've not changed my mind from the above post 3 years ago. I rode my first bike  in 76, and passed my test a year later. I rode from then right up until 3 years ago. I was that ar5ey idiot giving it large well into my 30's and rode pretty much just below that till I got rid of my last bike. I'm not anti-bike, far from it. 

But the TT circuit is now seeing bikes running at speeds far in excess of when it first started. The bikes are better, safer etc but the med centre is still up to 10 miles away, not one mile away. I acknowledge and accept the risks at the likes of Donnington etc but the TT isn't safe enough for me.

I also accept its up to the riders but if a rider is contracted to one of the top teams, or is looking to make a name for himself and get a top ride what will he do?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			As a former Emergency Service worker dealing with precisely this sort of thing Paul, my choice was when I signed up. As the old saying goes, if you canâ€™t take a joke you shouldnâ€™t have joined.

To be honest I have a far bigger issue dealing with idiots riding in shorts and T shirts who could have prevented their own injuries but insisted on exercising their rights to dress inappropriately than I would dealing with the aftermath of a racing incident.
		
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I get that Richard, itâ€™s an old thread, and without going over old ground, itâ€™s an easy excuse to use the old â€œif you canâ€™t take a jokeâ€ I also know full well from my own experience the horrors certain employments can face, it doesnâ€™t always mean everybody in those roles can cope or fully aware of the realities and wonâ€™t be affected later in life.
Youâ€™ll know better than me sometimes itâ€™s not only the casualty that suffers.


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2019)

Ex competitive rider but we need to recognise that bike technology has developed so speeds are much higher and with little or no 'run-off' options the safety margin has reduced considerably. While I hope it will continue the fact that each year riders die probably suggests its had its day.


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## Slime (Jun 10, 2019)

I read somewhere that around 300 people have died racing on IOM, including riders, passengers, spectators and marshalls.
That's a lot of coffins ............................. but they have been racing there for over 100 years.
I'd let them carry on, I love watching it and absolutely marvel at their skill and bravery/madness.


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## User20204 (Jun 10, 2019)

Crossing the road, I think that should be banned, have you seen the figures for deaths in crossing the road, bloody lunatics.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Crossing the road, I think that should be banned, have you seen the figures for deaths in crossing the road, bloody lunatics.
		
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Nice thought out response


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## User20204 (Jun 10, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Nice thought out response 

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ye a bit like banning road racing


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			ye a bit like banning road racing 

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Not really, people actively choosing to put their life on the line for "fun" isn't the same as people getting about because of necessity.

Doesn't mean said people shouldn't be allowed too (or not), but certainly merits a discussion. Unlike "should people cross the road"?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I get that Richard, itâ€™s an old thread, and without going over old ground, itâ€™s an easy excuse to use the old â€œif you canâ€™t take a jokeâ€ I also know full well from my own experience the horrors certain employments can face, it doesnâ€™t always mean everybody in those roles can cope or fully aware of the realities and wonâ€™t be affected later in life.
Youâ€™ll know better than me sometimes itâ€™s not only the casualty that suffers.
		
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Paul, we probably both have seen stuff we'd rather not remember and we both know full well that as much as people think they might be able to cope with some of this stuff they can't.  Fortunately both our former employers have got better at recognising it and dealing with it properly.  Whilst the old "if you can't take a joke" can come across as a bit glib, there was, certainly in my line, a lot of truth to it and I suspect that was the same in yours.  Having said it's a bit glib, I stand by the sentiment; we both signed up knowing we wouldn't have full control over what we would have to deal with and in my case I was fully aware that the sort of stuff I'd deal with would be similar to the TT type incidents, and I think that would be the case for most if not all of those who deal with the TT.  The riders certainly know and just as Brian's position hasn't changed, neither has mine.  I've pushed bikes and cars hard on the public highway, but these guys are a number of levels above anything I ever did.  They, as we were, are volunteers and I don't feel either the inclination or the necessity to ban it for their or anybody else's safety.  And I appreciate that others will see it differently. 

The only thing that has changed in my position on the TT is that I need to take Mutley there sooner rather than later before someone decides to ban it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 10, 2019)

Canâ€™t really see why the speed element is important.
In the past 70mph was fast but 150mph is insane but at both speeds if you hit a brick wall you donâ€™t stand much chance.
Bike racing is dangerous they know that.
Think Rooter has it right, top sportsmen want a challenge.
But they can be selfish, family etc. Those left behind.

By the way I have never ridden a motorbike in my life.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Paul, we probably both have seen stuff we'd rather not remember and we both know full well that as much as people think they might be able to cope with some of this stuff they can't.  Fortunately both our former employers have got better at recognising it and dealing with it properly.  Whilst the old "if you can't take a joke" can come across as a bit glib, there was, certainly in my line, a lot of truth to it and I suspect that was the same in yours.  Having said it's a bit glib, I stand by the sentiment; we both signed up knowing we wouldn't have full control over what we would have to deal with and in my case I was fully aware that the sort of stuff I'd deal with would be similar to the TT type incidents, and I think that would be the case for most if not all of those who deal with the TT.  The riders certainly know and just as Brian's position hasn't changed, neither has mine.  I've pushed bikes and cars hard on the public highway, but these guys are a number of levels above anything I ever did.  They, as we were, are volunteers and I don't feel either the inclination or the necessity to ban it for their or anybody else's safety.  And I appreciate that others will see it differently. 

The only thing that has changed in my position on the TT is that I need to take Mutley there sooner rather than later before someone decides to ban it.  

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And I still watch it when I can mate, the original post was 3 years ago when it was going through a rough period deaths wise.
I fully support the riders right to compete and the level of professionalism.
Every motor sport has an element of risk at high speed, Iâ€™m just not sure there is another sporting event were a number of deaths is accepted as the norm every year.


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And I still watch it when I can mate, the original post was 3 years ago when it was going through a rough period deaths wise.
I fully support the riders right to compete and the level of professionalism.
Every motor sport has an element of risk at high speed, Iâ€™m just not sure there is another sporting event were a number of deaths is accepted as the norm every year.
		
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One of the (perverse) things I looked at was how many riders are injured at the TT. Quite often at a regular, made for racing, circuit a rider coming off has a decent chance of being able to race either the same day or not long after. The TT doesn't have that level of safety margin.


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