# Club's compensation package for lockdown 3.



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

After Lockdown 1 our course, which is privately owned, volunteers run the "club" side of things offered 2 compensation options; 1. £75 shop voucher and some guest passes, 2. 7 weeks off the last two months direct debit payments. 

This time they've just emailed to say the compensation package is 1. Two months of your membership subscription value as bar credit to be used by 31st March 2022 and 2. All existing members that renew will have membership prices frozen at the 2020-2021 rate for 2021-2022 subscription year.

That's all very well and good but a group of us have decided to join another club from April 1st so basically even though we've paid the same in as all the other members we're going to be entitled to nothing!

I wish I'd just cancelled my direct debits back in January!


----------



## moogie (Mar 4, 2021)

For lockdown 2...Nothing.... Not a penny


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

For any of the lockdowns, nothing


----------



## RichA (Mar 4, 2021)

Are they compelled by your contract to offer compensation or are they incentivising renewal?
My small club is also privately owned. Compensation hasn't been mentioned by anyone and I hadn't thought about it. I figure that if they had to fully furlough all the staff because there was no money coming in, then the course would struggle to recover for months.


----------



## IanM (Mar 4, 2021)

Wife's course is "Marriott" and they stopped collecting DDs as soon as forced to close.

Mine is member-owned and I think we got about £100 off this years subs (paid in January) but that will be about it.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

IanM said:



			Wife's course is "Marriott" and they stopped collecting DDs as soon as forced to close.

Mine is member-owned and I think we got about £100 off this years subs (paid in January) but that will be about it.
		
Click to expand...

Imagine how pissed off you'd be if that £100 was only paid off your NEXT year's subs and you'd actually decided to leave....


----------



## JamesR (Mar 4, 2021)

Maybe it’s also partly a thank you for retaining your membership


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 4, 2021)

Aa discussed on the similar thread.

Members club

When lockdown 1 started our subs for 2020- 2021 were due on the 1st of April 2020 the club made an offer to all those that had already paid and for those debating about paying a pro-rata credit on our 2021-2022 subs many offered the club to waive the credit and were given a thankyou in the way of a bar credit if they renew this April.

No members have been offered a credit for lockdowns 2 and 3 on the simple basis that there is no money in the coffers and if they did they would simply have to increase the subs for 2021/2 by the amount of the credit to cover costs for 2021/22. That increase would then be in the fees for ever more.

We will get 3 visitors tickets as part of the renewal.


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 4, 2021)

We had about 100 members not renew in 2020 and it was interesting that many that had not renewed came back when the lockdown 1 finished although some waited until the winter membership was offered. 

 I knew of one fairly large group that all went to another club but came back in winter when they realised how often that club closed in the wet weather.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

Sorry I’m struggling to see the issue ?

So the club have decided to give compensation to members but you are not happy that you won’t get it because you decided to leave 🤷‍♂️

I don’t understand what you think the club should have done ? Give you money back ?


----------



## D-S (Mar 4, 2021)

A few years ago our club offered 4 guest passes as a thank you to members (can’t remember why). It was a nice gesture and appreciated by the members however that year members guests fees were down about £25,000 so these ‘freebies’ are still a cost to the club.


----------



## Beedee (Mar 4, 2021)

My course is Hilton owned.  They stopped collecting DDs for those that use them and have told us that the "pay in full" people will get an equivalent reduction on next year's fees.  Only if we renew of course.


----------



## mister v (Mar 4, 2021)

we're a private club and We're getting a free mug...... , its a great club, members are friendly and as any club there are a few dullards, but im happy to pay my fair share if it keeps it open........ as they said in an email to us the grass doesnt stop growing just because your not here


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

mister v said:



			we're a private club and We're getting a free mug...... , its a great club, members are friendly and as any club there are a few dullards, but im happy to pay my fair share if it keeps it open........ as they said in an email to us the grass doesnt stop growing just because your not here
		
Click to expand...

Our club is privately owned, they will have furlouged all the pro, shop, bar and ground staff thus their outgoings will be minimal so I think it's only fair they should refund the money to the members who have been paying for a service they can't provide.



Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I’m struggling to see the issue ?

So the club have decided to give compensation to members but you are not happy that you won’t get it because you decided to leave 🤷‍♂️

I don’t understand what you think the club should have done ? Give you money back ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, in the way of a pro. shop voucher would have at least enabled those who have decided to leave to have had something back and still given the pro shop some turnover and profit.
There offer seems ill thought out.


----------



## D-S (Mar 4, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			Our club is privately owned, they will have furlouged all the pro, shop, bar and ground staff thus their outgoings will be minimal so I think it's only fair they should refund the money to the members who have been paying for a service they can't provide.



Yes, in the way of a pro. shop voucher would have at least enabled those who have decided to leave to have had something back and still given the pro shop some turnover and profit.
There offer seems ill thought out.
		
Click to expand...

Clubs might have furloughed catering and bar staff but their is still admin to be done, oftenthe Pro Shop are not Club employees as this is the Pro’s business so no savings there, the grass keeps growing and repair and project work still needs to be done by the greenstaff so all can’t/shouldn  be furloughed. Also don’t forget that your subscriptions are subsidised by green fee income from members guests, visitors and societies which have dried up completely. There is also no income from bar and catering, the profit of which in some clubs again subsidises members’  fees. The club might have smaller expenses but this has to be balanced against zero normal income. Giving members back significant  chunks of annual subscriptions will/would cripple many clubs financially.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			Our club is privately owned, they will have furlouged all the pro, shop, bar and ground staff thus their outgoings will be minimal so I think it's only fair they should refund the money to the members who have been paying for a service they can't provide.



Yes, in the way of a pro. shop voucher would have at least enabled those who have decided to leave to have had something back and still given the pro shop some turnover and profit.
There offer seems ill thought out.
		
Click to expand...

But you decided to leave 🤷‍♂

You left the club and they decided to offer people incentives to those that will support for the future


----------



## Yorkhacker (Mar 4, 2021)

Maybe you should just stay another year if you are that concerned about getting your moneys worth. I'm guessing you are leaving because you are not happy there


----------



## DRW (Mar 4, 2021)

Wont be surprised if test law cases happen over these kind of things, as not convinced the golf clubs are in the right in the eyes of the law but pass on that front.

OP The problem is once someone else has your money, its difficult, as you are only left with three choices. 1. is to appeal to their 'good nature', 2. take to social media to try to encourage them to do something else or 3. sue them.

Not easy decisions., sure there is more to the story than what you type.


----------



## patricks148 (Mar 4, 2021)

part of the problem sometimes is people who pay by DD think they are paying for a monthly service like a Gym, where as most are though a credit company that pay the club an upfront fee. 

they are not its an annual sum, i don't think clubs can be help to rebates if its down to Gov regulation


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 4, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			Our club is privately owned, they will have furlouged all the pro, shop, bar and ground staff thus their outgoings will be minimal so I think it's only fair they should refund the money to the members who have been paying for a service they can't provide.
		
Click to expand...

We had a substantial predicted loss just from the 1st lockdown that figure has now quadrupled with the second and third lockdowns. Some green staff were still working during that and even more of them have worked during this lockdown so that planned projects could be done. We still have the shop open to receive parcels and the club manager at least is still working and given the amount of work to prepare invoices for renewals so is the accounts lady probably. Some outgoings such as insurance,  interest on bank loans and HP payments on machinery will still be being paid.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2021)

Nothing for what's currently being and has recently been lost.

The money I have paid (monthly DD as it happens - but see @patricks148 #21) - is sunk/dead money that I was committed to paying in any case, and the time lost is now, self-evidently, past - I am not concerned at all that my club is taking that position.

The club provided decent compensation for the 1st lockdown and I was pleased about that.  Club's financial position looks OK at the moment - if we were to have cut next years subs to compensate further for what was lost last year (they are not), or pull from existing funds, as a members club as members we only risk being asked to put more in via a levy to make up for income lost.  No sugar daddy - just us the members keeping the club going as healthy as it is.  Swings and roundabouts for me.  I'm just pleased that the club is in a stable position and we can continue to plan for future investments in the course and clubhouse development.  Love my club


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 4, 2021)

Covid isn't the fault of golf clubs and they still have substantial bills to pay despite lost earnings from bar, catering and visitors. Whilst it's a nice gesture to get a rebate I don't really think anyone should expect it.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 4, 2021)

DRW said:



			Wont be surprised if test law cases happen over these kind of things, as not convinced the golf clubs are in the right in the eyes of the law but pass on that front.

OP The problem is once someone else has your money, its difficult, as you are only left with three choices. 1. is to appeal to their 'good nature', 2. take to social media to try to encourage them to do something else or 3. sue them.

Not easy decisions., sure there is more to the story than what you type.
		
Click to expand...

I too think the legal position is interesting,  though in my unprofessional there is probably a significant difference between a member owned club and a privately owned one.  At a members club your fee is paid to be a member of a club and be part owner of the facility. There can be no expectation of a certain level of service.  For a private club the fee is essentially paid to the owners for them to provide a service.  My layman's understanding is that if no service is provided,  no matter who's  fault that is, then no fee would be due.  That certainly how it works in the airline industry.


----------



## sunshine (Mar 4, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Covid isn't the fault of golf clubs and they still have substantial bills to pay despite lost earnings from bar, catering and visitors. Whilst it's a nice gesture to get a rebate I don't really think anyone should expect it.
		
Click to expand...

I understand your point, but it depends on the nature of your golf club and the customer / service relationship.

If you had booked a flight that was cancelled due to lockdown you would expect a refund. COVID isn't the fault of airlines and they still have substantial bills to pay!


----------



## D-S (Mar 4, 2021)

I wonder what the thoughts are of people who think a rebate is their ‘right’ would think of an unseasonal 3 months of no golf (and not therefore what they had paid for) due to snow.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

D-S said:



			I wonder what the thoughts are of people who think a rebate is their ‘right’ would think of an unseasonal 3 months of no golf (and not therefore what they had paid for) due to snow.
		
Click to expand...

A national lockdown with furloughed employees I don't think can be compared to that. Personally.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 4, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I understand your point, but it depends on the nature of your golf club and the customer / service relationship.

If you had booked a flight that was cancelled due to lockdown you would expect a refund. COVID isn't the fault of airlines and they still have substantial bills to pay!
		
Click to expand...

No, it would either be rescheduled or claim on your insurance. You wouldn't lose out.


----------



## SteveW86 (Mar 4, 2021)

Personally I don’t want anything back, I would rather the club be in as good a position as possible when we return and have as much funds as possible to invest in the facilities.

However, I appreciate I am in a good financial position. I haven’t been on furlough and my wife and I are both in stable jobs with decent incomes. I can understand that those not in that position might feel differently.


----------



## Captainron (Mar 4, 2021)

I’m sorry but people who expect to get money back from a golf club due to lockdown are stupid and short sighted in my opinion. 

But now you want something back after you decided to leave? Get te!!!

Next you’ll be writing to the golfing bodies to ask for them to discount the expensive courses with Peter.....


----------



## davidy233 (Mar 4, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No, it would either be rescheduled or claim on your insurance. You wouldn't lose out.
		
Click to expand...

I got refunded by the airline (KLM) for flights to the States which were cancelled last year - took a while and they told me that I'd have to wait a year to get my money back but a couple of months after I asked for my money back I got a full refund.


----------



## DanFST (Mar 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I’m sorry but people who expect to get money back from a golf club due to lockdown are stupid and short sighted in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...


Why are golf clubs treated differently to anything else? I got my Gym membership frozen, My Indoor Simulator membership refunded. Gigs, flights etc..


----------



## SteveW86 (Mar 4, 2021)

Traminator said:



			But the thing is, we are each in exactly the same position financially as we would have been, we haven't actually lost any money as we were happy to spend it.

Earlier I made reference to the £300 I've "lost", but I'm wrong, I haven't lost that at all as golf membership is a complete given for me.   All I've lost is a few games of golf, which in reality I already had aplenty last year when I was WFH every other week.

The OP is not down financially and has not lost any money.  He has lost some winter games of golf and the owner has recognised that by offering a sweetener on the new membership.  

The OP has decided to join somewhere else instead of taking the offer, nobody is forcing him to change clubs so it's his choice.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, we haven’t “lost” money. What we have lost though is a service, say we lost 3 months of golf due to the lockdowns one argument could be that the coming years fees are reduced by 25% to make up for it. Wanting a rebate though is short sighted, I think we both agree that we don’t want anything back from the clubs, just for them to be as strong as possible moving forwards.


----------



## Liverbirdie (Mar 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I’m sorry but people who expect to get money back from a golf club due to lockdown are stupid and short sighted in my opinion.

But now you want something back after you decided to leave? Get te!!!

Next you’ll be writing to the golfing bodies to ask for them to discount the expensive courses with Peter.....
		
Click to expand...

I'm too busy enjoying my £65 rebate to write.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Why are golf clubs treated differently to anything else? I got my Gym membership frozen, My Indoor Simulator membership refunded. Gigs, flights etc..
		
Click to expand...

What staff does a gym have to pay during lockdown ? A lot of members clubs are keeping staff on to keep the course going through the lockdown. Keeping a golf course up to standard is a touch harder than a gym or indoor simulator


----------



## DanFST (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What staff does a gym have to pay during lockdown ? A lot of members clubs are keeping staff on to keep the course going through the lockdown. Keeping a golf course up to standard is a touch harder than a gym or indoor simulator
		
Click to expand...


Probably no staff correct. What unit rent does a golf club have to pay during lockdown?


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What staff does a gym have to pay during lockdown ? A lot of members clubs are keeping staff on to keep the course going through the lockdown. Keeping a golf course up to standard is a touch harder than a gym or indoor simulator
		
Click to expand...

But in my case it's a private club and no work has taken place.


----------



## Captainron (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I'm too busy enjoying my £65 rebate to write. 

Click to expand...

Enjoy your retirement.....

Please at least spend it in the pro shop at your club or the bar.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Probably no staff correct. What unit rent does a golf club have to pay during lockdown?
		
Click to expand...

Depends on if the club owns the land or rents it - some clubs have to pay over up to £100k a year just to lease the land 

If a golf course isn’t maintained for 3 months then it’s going to lose a lot more than just money.


----------



## Captainron (Mar 4, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			But in my case it's a private club and no work has taken place.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not your club anymore though is it?


----------



## KenL (Mar 4, 2021)

If you are a member you generally take out a years membership (contract).

Do people asking for a rebate expect money off if the course is closed or on winter greens?


----------



## JamesR (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Depends on if the club owns the land or rents it - some clubs have to pay over up to £100k a year just to lease the land

If a golf course isn’t maintained for 3 months then it’s going to lose a lot more than just money.
		
Click to expand...

We pay the National Trust about £100k.
I’m not aware that we got a refund from them.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Probably no staff correct. What unit rent does a golf club have to pay during lockdown?
		
Click to expand...

They will still have rates to pay on the clubhouse, possibly rent as well depending on the set up.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			I agree, we haven’t “lost” money. What we have lost though is a service, say we lost 3 months of golf due to the lockdowns one argument could be that the coming years fees are reduced by 25% to make up for it. Wanting a rebate though is short sighted, I think we both agree that we don’t want anything back from the clubs, just for them to be as strong as possible moving forwards.
		
Click to expand...

And we lost that service because of a Government decree, not because of any failure on the club's part.  The club had no choice in the matter.

I really hope that people don't go down the route of suing clubs when it was completely outside their control; the only winners will be ambulance chasing lawyers.


----------



## Captainron (Mar 4, 2021)

Another consideration here is that if a club decides to give back say £100 to each full member.

£100 is not a lot of money. You could do without it. It’s a night out or a meal with the wife and kids at a normal restaurant. No one here is going to die if they lose £100. It’s rock all really.

That club has 800 members and all of a sudden that’s £80k gone. 

That’s a lot of money. That could be the difference between being there and not got some clubs.

Add on lost revenue from visitors, catering and the bar. 

Stop being so short sighted.


----------



## DanFST (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Depends on if the club owns the land or rents it - some clubs have to pay over up to £100k a year just to lease the land

If a golf course isn’t maintained for 3 months then it’s going to lose a lot more than just money.
		
Click to expand...

And how many green staff are needed for basic maintenance, with no traffic to get in the way?



drive4show said:



			They will still have rates to pay on the clubhouse, possibly rent as well depending on the set up.
		
Click to expand...

So the same as other business' which have refunded or extended membership.

My clubs a members club, a good one. I don't intend on leaving and improvements have been made in lockdown. No issue not getting anything to make up for the lack of golf. However not everyone is in that situation. It's not short sighted, My friend joined his first club in the end of December with membership running till the end of March. He will have paid £300+ for absolutely no golf. They are refusing to extend it.


----------



## JamesR (Mar 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Another consideration here is that if a club decides to give back say £100 to each full member.

£100 is not a lot of money. You could do without it. It’s a night out or a meal with the wife and kids at a normal restaurant. No one here is going to die if they lose £100. It’s rock all really.

That club has 800 members and all of a sudden that’s £80k gone.

That’s a lot of money. That could be the difference between being there and not got some clubs.

Add on lost revenue from visitors, catering and the bar.

Stop being so short sighted.
		
Click to expand...

I think they said that ours will cost effectively £50k.
Fortunately we’re a well run club and are financially secure.
Others aren’t so lucky.


----------



## JamesR (Mar 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			And how many green staff are needed for basic maintenance, with no traffic to get in the way?



So the same as other business' which have refunded or extended membership.

My clubs a members club, a good one. I don't intend on leaving and improvements have been made in lockdown. No issue not getting anything to make up for the lack of golf. However not everyone is in that situation. It's not short sighted, My friend joined his first club in the end of *December* with membership running *till* the end of *March*. He will have paid £300+ for absolutely no golf. They are refusing to extend it.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of clubs are shut due to weather in those months anyway.
Would he expect to get money back due to rain/snow closures?


----------



## Liverbirdie (Mar 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Enjoy your retirement.....

Please at least spend it in the pro shop at your club or the bar.
		
Click to expand...

If they sell rum and raisin yorkies and Birra Morreti, would be rude not to.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			And how many green staff are needed for basic maintenance, with no traffic to get in the way?



So the same as other business' which have refunded or extended membership.

My clubs a members club, a good one. I don't intend on leaving and improvements have been made in lockdown. No issue not getting anything to make up for the lack of golf. However not everyone is in that situation. It's not short sighted, My friend joined his first club in the end of December with membership running till the end of March. He will have paid £300+ for absolutely no golf. They are refusing to extend it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what other businesses are doing but I am also at a private members club. If the club refunds £100k to members that is £100k less they have to spend on maintaining and improving the course. As the number of rounds drops off considerably at this time of year anyway I really don't think many members will be complaining.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			For any of the lockdowns, nothing
		
Click to expand...

Me to.
We have a £100 on bar card and £50 development fund as part of our fees.
They have told us we don’t have to pay this .
So they have let us off with our own money.


----------



## Oddsocks (Mar 4, 2021)

Traminator said:



			What about the people who paid in full last year?

The owner is offering a loyalty discount for members but you're choosing to go and be a member elsewhere.

Apart from Marriott as mentioned, and I'm sure maybe another one or two examples might pop up, very few clubs would have just let people stop paying their DD as that's just a way of paying the annual fee that you committed to.
		
Click to expand...

My old course used a finance company  for the membership and us such was legally bound by their contract to freeze any DD’s for months they were closed


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Me to.
We have a £100 on bar card and £50 development fund as part of our fees.
They have told us we don’t have to pay this .
So they have let us off with our own money.
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha, good sleight of hand.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



			It’s not your club anymore though is it?
		
Click to expand...

?
I'm a member up until the 31st March.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 4, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			?
I'm a member up until the 31st March.
		
Click to expand...

Look on the bright side, you can play on the 29th, 30th and 31st March


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha, good sleight of hand.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it looks cheaper than last year by £150 .
But most of us will spend that any way over the year.
I will be happy to see it survive in the condition it’s in very good.
Miss the banter of the lads and can’t wait to get back to normal.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm not sure what other businesses are doing but I am also at a private members club. If the club refunds £100k to members that is £100k less they have to spend on maintaining and improving the course. As the number of rounds drops off considerably at this time of year anyway I really don't think many members will be complaining.
		
Click to expand...

Or it's £100k less profit made by the guy who owns it!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			Or it's £100k less profit made by the guy who owns it!
		
Click to expand...

It thought you were at a private club ? 



Kennysarmy said:



			But in my case it's a private club and no work has taken place.
		
Click to expand...

Why did you keep paying each month if you were leaving ?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 4, 2021)

And if the winter weather was unexpectedly mild or if you were able, through  WFH, to play say 140 rounds a year rather than an expected 100 would you be happy on leaving to be asked for an extra 40% of your normal fees?


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It thought you were at a private club ?



Why did you keep paying each month if you were leaving ?
		
Click to expand...

It's privately owned by an individual ( family)
It's not "owned" by the current members or trustees.

I tried to do the right thing and continue to pay my direct debits up until the end of my current membership year, even though I had the right ( now removed for future members ) to cancel with no notice.

Lockdown 1 we were offered shop vouchers or money off the end of the year year direct debits.

I wrongly thought there would be a shop voucher option this time and I'd get some of my last three £77.50 payments back.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			And if the winter weather was unexpectedly mild or if you were able, through  WFH, to play say 140 rounds a year rather than an expected 100 would you be happy on leaving to be asked for an extra 40% of your normal fees?
		
Click to expand...

Every Club and its financial situation is different, let’s not kid ourselves that some Clubs haven’t made a profit using furlough and gaining new members/visitors last summer.

But I’ve never seen any Club base its fees on how many rounds an individual is expected or could play, infact I’d say some Clubs don’t care if you play 1 or a 100 once they have your money.

In my particular instance I don’t expect any compensation/reimbursement etc, but the talk of bad weather or amount of games played etc is smoke and mirrors and are not addressing the concerns or problems some members may face.

I’d hope, as our Club has done, that they will at least listen and discuss any issues an individual has.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 4, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			It's privately owned by an individual ( family)
It's not "owned" by the current members or trustees.
		
Click to expand...

Aaah I think you have confused us. The term 'private club' generally refers to a club owned by the members whereas a club owned by an individual or company is referred to as a proprietary club.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Every Club and its financial situation is different, let’s not kid ourselves that some Clubs haven’t made a profit using furlough and gaining new members/visitors last summer.

But I’ve never seen any Club base its fees on how many rounds an individual is expected or could play, infact I’d say some Clubs don’t care if you play 1 or a 100 once they have your money.

In my particular instance I don’t expect any compensation/reimbursement etc, but the talk of bad weather or amount of games played etc is smoke and mirrors and are not addressing the concerns or problems some members may face.

I’d hope, as our Club has done, that they will at least listen and discuss any issues an individual has.
		
Click to expand...

That is my point. 

Few of us know at the start of the Club year just how many rounds we are likely to play.

Circumstances such as the weather, our own availability or this year a pandemic, change.

As far as I  am concerned I sign up for a year's membership  and lockdown hasn't altered that. 

I wouldn't like to think that a proprietary club was profiteering from the current situation but equally I don't think that members are automatically entitled to a refund as a result of something over which the club has no control.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

Traminator said:



View attachment 35410

View attachment 35411


Your club's website doesn't quite fit what you're saying.

At £77.50 per month, you have taken a year's membership and spread it monthly, the same as probably 99.9% of golfers who pay monthly.

There is another monthly option with no commitment, that is £95 pm and payable ad hoc.

You HAVE been given 2 months membership fees back, you will get 2 months free on 1st April.  If you choose not to take that it's your choice, but the club is offering it.
		
Click to expand...

They changed the rules.
Current full members up until 31st March could leave with no notice. From 1st April you're agreeing to pay for the full year, either in one payment or split monthly. Like I say, I was within my rights to have cancelled last weekend and not paid my March DD but didn't feel that was in the spirit of being a member and as previously a compensation offer included a shop voucher I presumed and hoped I'd get my March ( and maybe more) returned in vouchers.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 4, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Aaah I think you have confused us. The term 'private club' generally refers to a club owned by the members whereas a club owned by an individual or company is referred to as a proprietary club.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry for confusion. 🙄🤷‍♂️


----------



## evemccc (Mar 4, 2021)

Why have some clubs given rebates for the first lockdown from the end of March 2020 - mid May 2020....yet it seems on here like many are refusing to for Lockdown 2 and 3 which is November, January, February and March?

It seems that the rationale that is mostly given is that clubs have lost revenue from green fee income, bar and venue-hire...but that was more true for the first lockdown was it not, than the rest of the year?

Winter golf does not generate visitors anything like the rate of spring and summer...so really, how many green-fees will have been lost in January and February 2021, compared to the usual green-fee income generated most years every January and February? I doubt there is a big difference, because few casual (green-fee) golfers play in winter with rain, sleet, hail and mud. 

Almost all clubs will probably have seen an explosion of new members this year, paying annual memberships....and my club has had many more members using the course than normal and  importantly using the bar during the summer. People at my club talked of how much busier the bar was during the relatively covid-free summer and early autumn months compared to normal...

And yet, there is no word of any rebate or anything like money on the club card. I find it hard to believe my club has not made a lot more money through a lot of new memberships and a busier bar this year, than in any supposed green-fee loss in January and February. And the grass was growing in March April and May, and a higher proportion of the clubs annual green-fees would have been lost then...yet members got a rebate then, but not now..

A cynic would say it's because it was right before renewal time..hence the lockdown 1 rebate..


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 5, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Why have some clubs given rebates for the first lockdown from the end of March 2020 - mid May 2020....yet it seems on here like many are refusing to for Lockdown 2 and 3 which is November, January, February and March?

It seems that the rationale that is mostly given is that clubs have lost revenue from green fee income, bar and venue-hire...but that was more true for the first lockdown was it not, than the rest of the year?

Winter golf does not generate visitors anything like the rate of spring and summer...so really, how many green-fees will have been lost in January and February 2021, compared to the usual green-fee income generated most years every January and February? I doubt there is a big difference, because few casual (green-fee) golfers play in winter with rain, sleet, hail and mud. 

Almost all clubs will probably have seen an explosion of new members this year, paying annual memberships....and my club has had many more members using the course than normal and  importantly using the bar during the summer. People at my club talked of how much busier the bar was during the relatively covid-free summer and early autumn months compared to normal...

And yet, there is no word of any rebate or anything like money on the club card. I find it hard to believe my club has not made a lot more money through a lot of new memberships and a busier bar this year, than in any supposed green-fee loss in January and February. And the grass was growing in March April and May, and a higher proportion of the clubs annual green-fees would have been lost then...yet members got a rebate then, but not now..

A cynic would say it's because it was right before renewal time..hence the lockdown 1 rebate..
		
Click to expand...

I think a lot depends on the type of course. Links courses often have lots of visitors in the winter when parkland courses become unplayable. My previous course was built on chalk and always bone dry, the visitor green fee was higher in winter than summer because they used to get so many visitors when other courses closed.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			That is my point.

Few of us know at the start of the Club year just how many rounds we are likely to play.

Circumstances such as the weather, our own availability or this year a pandemic, change.

As far as I  am concerned I sign up for a year's membership  and lockdown hasn't altered that.

I wouldn't like to think that a proprietary club was profiteering from the current situation but equally I don't think that members are automatically entitled to a refund as a result of something over which the club has no control.
		
Click to expand...

I agree no member should be automatically entitled to a refund, but all the reasons you mention for not playing, weather, personal circumstances etc are year in year out, nobody could or would consider a pandemic, this is an exceptional reason and hence why I say both parties, Club and member, should be flexible.

I don’t think any propietary clubs could accussed of profiteering, but if they furloughed staff, had an increase in memberships and visitors whilst not buying bar stock or catering supplies then the likelihood is, they will be in profit this year and it’s how they decide to use that finance and how they communicate with the members that could make a difference.


----------



## r0wly86 (Mar 5, 2021)

Contractually the clubs could claim the contract has been frustrated, as the the closure has been made by an act of parliament. Similar thing happened in WW2 when steel manufacturers were ordered by the government to provide steel to the armed forces and so could not fill commercial contracts. If a contract is frustrated it means that the contract has ended through something beyond the parties control and so neither party is liable to complete there side of the contract.

We have seen (though going through the courts still) that a lot of business insurance will not pay out in the case of pandemics and so clubs could be financially very badly off at the moment.

A lot will come down to PR and members relations, if a club has acted in bad faith and nearby club has acted well, then they could lose members to them.

I would question a person above who says £100 isn't a lot, we don't know the financial situations of everyone especially during a pandemic where businesses have been struggling, people may be furloughed and so £100 could mean quite a bit more


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree no member should be automatically entitled to a refund, but all the reasons you mention for not playing, weather, personal circumstances etc are year in year out, nobody could or would consider a pandemic, this is an exceptional reason and hence why I say both parties, Club and member, should be flexible.

I don’t think any propietary clubs could accussed of profiteering, but if they furloughed staff, had an increase in memberships and visitors whilst not buying bar stock or catering supplies then the likelihood is, they will be in profit this year and it’s how they decide to use that finance and how they communicate with the members that could make a difference.
		
Click to expand...

I rather suspect that my difficulty arises from only looking at this through the eyes of a someone who has  always belonged to Members' Clubs.

There is no contract involved  as annual subscriptions are required merely to retain membership and, as a result, part ownership of the Club.

The financial objective of such a club is to cover costs with hopefully a little over for the "rainy day" fund.

Those members with responsibility for the financial health of the Club should consider what the costs will be going forward and,  at the same time,  what happened during the previous twelve months. Only at that stage can they make any decision on rebates etc;

Much has been  said about the benefits to clubs of utilising the furlough scheme and it has undoubtedly helped.

However,  taking my own Club as an example, not all staff were placed on furlough.

During Lockdown 1 three of six greenstaff were off. The course still had to be maintained ready for  reopening. No greenstaff have been furloughed during the current closure as it has coincided with a period when bigger projects have to be addressed.

All bar staff were off but then we weren't selling anything during that time and sales were down once the bar could open  due to ongoing restrictions.

Catering is franchised so cost neutral.

Manager and his assistant continued to be employed albeit on reduced benefits.

Other costs such as rates and insurances etc; continued.

I don't know how typical we are but I don't suspect we are that out of line and  if so, it can be seen  that clubs are unlikely to  have saved as much as some might think.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			They changed the rules.
Current full members up until 31st March could leave with no notice. From 1st April you're agreeing to pay for the full year, either in one payment or split monthly. Like I say, I was within my rights to have cancelled last weekend and not paid my March DD but didn't feel that was in the spirit of being a member and as previously a compensation offer included a shop voucher I presumed and hoped I'd get my March ( and maybe more) returned in vouchers.
		
Click to expand...

So what you are really saying is you were going to leave the club anyway, but gambled on staying an extra month to better return when you left leaving you quids in.
As I see it, you played the market and lost. Theres no point moaning about it.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 5, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So what you are really saying is you were going to leave the club anyway, but gambled on staying an extra month to better return when you left leaving you quids in.
As I see it, you played the market and lost. Theres no point moaning about it.
		
Click to expand...

I really don't see it like that sorry. I never expected to get the money back in cash, but ultimately I've paid for 3 months for a service that could not be provided and had hoped as in Lockdown 1 there would be an option to be offered a pro shop voucher. Just disappointed that the only "winners" seem to be the members who are staying and the owner who is probably massively in profit - nearly all staff furloughed and still raking it in in membership direct debits.


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I really don't see it like that sorry. I never expected to get the money back in cash, but ultimately I've paid for 3 months for a service that could not be provided and had hoped as in Lockdown 1 there would be an option to be offered a pro shop voucher. Just disappointed that the only "winners" seem to be the members who are staying and the owner who is probably massively in profit - nearly all staff furloughed and still raking it in in membership direct debits.
		
Click to expand...

I think you're being a little simplistic in your viewpoint.  Nearly all staff have been furloughed but the course still needs looking after, there is a significant loss of revenues from visitors, functions, bar, etc.  Our club is run pretty well but we still have a lot of outgoings even when the members aren't on the course.  General maintenance, refurbing old buildings, other work on the course.  The members expect the course to be up and ready when the furlough ends.  That means the course has to be maintained every day.  At the "worst" point we had furloughed all but two of our green staff but they were still out there every day having to cut the grass, put treatment down (another cost), and that's a lot of land to do.  For our club the members income is obviously of great importance but a lot of other income streams have been lost.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I really don't see it like that sorry. I never expected to get the money back in cash, but ultimately I've paid for 3 months for a service that could not be provided and had hoped as in Lockdown 1 there would be an option to be offered a pro shop voucher. Just disappointed that the only "winners" seem to be the members who are staying and the owner who is probably massively in profit - nearly all staff furloughed and still raking it in in membership direct debits.
		
Click to expand...

You can argue that, but your comment here "and as previously a compensation offer included a shop voucher I presumed and hoped I'd get my March ( and maybe more) returned in vouchers. " says to me you were gambling on getting more back than you outlayed however the return was made.


----------



## 3puttpercy (Mar 5, 2021)

I think "Force majeure" must be considered.
Which essentially free both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstances beyond the control of both parties,
such as war, strike, riot, crime, EPIDEMIC, sudden LEGAL changes, or an event described by the legal term act of God, prevents one or both parties
from fulfilling their obligation under the contract.
In practice, most "force majeure" clauses do not excuse a party's non-performance entirely, but only suspend it for the duration of the force majeure.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I rather suspect that my difficulty arises from only looking at this through the eyes of a someone who has  always belonged to Members' Clubs.

There is no contract involved  as annual subscriptions are required merely to retain membership and, as a result, part ownership of the Club.

The financial objective of such a club is to cover costs with hopefully a little over for the "rainy day" fund.

Those members with responsibility for the financial health of the Club should consider what the costs will be going forward and,  at the same time,  what happened during the previous twelve months. Only at that stage can they make any decision on rebates etc;

Much has been  said about the benefits to clubs of utilising the furlough scheme and it has undoubtedly helped.

However,  taking my own Club as an example, not all staff were placed on furlough.

During Lockdown 1 three of six greenstaff were off. The course still had to be maintained ready for  reopening. No greenstaff have been furloughed during the current closure as it has coincided with a period when bigger projects have to be addressed.

All bar staff were off but then we weren't selling anything during that time and sales were down once the bar could open  due to ongoing restrictions.

Catering is franchised so cost neutral.

Manager and his assistant continued to be employed albeit on reduced benefits.

Other costs such as rates and insurances etc; continued.

I don't know how typical we are but I don't suspect we are that out of line and  if so, it can be seen  that clubs are unlikely to  have saved as much as some might think.
		
Click to expand...

Did you take on any new members? There are Clubs up here in the NE reported to be taking on anywhere between 50-100 new members, we took on 30 full members plus over 40 on a “summer membership” scheme.

Obviously there will be winners and losers (from your Club has done, I think yous maybe winners) which goes back to my initial point of Clubs considering individual cases.


----------



## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you take on any new members? There are Clubs up here in the NE reported to be taking on anywhere between 50-100 new members, we took on 30 full members plus over 40 on a “summer membership” scheme.

Obviously there will be winners and losers (from your Club has done, I think yous maybe winners) which goes back to my initial point of Clubs considering individual cases.
		
Click to expand...

It will be interesting to see the impact of this lockdown ending. At the end of lockdown 1, golf was pretty much all that was open sports wise and you really needed to be a member to play due to 2 balls etc. Now there is going to be more supply due to 4 balls being allowed and there is going to be more sports permitted at the same time, will be interesting to see if golf continues to see the same increases in participation.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you take on any new members? There are Clubs up here in the NE reported to be taking on anywhere between 50-100 new members, we took on 30 full members plus over 40 on a “summer membership” scheme.

Obviously there will be winners and losers (from your Club has done, I think yous maybe winners) which goes back to my initial point of Clubs considering individual cases.
		
Click to expand...

We gained a fair number of  new members but are budgeting for a net reduction in those numbers this year as there will be those whose jobs disappear once furlough comes to an end as well as  those who find that they have significantly less time for playing once they return to work  or WFH arrangements change.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 5, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



*I would question a person above who says £100 isn't a lot,* we don't know the financial situations of everyone especially during a pandemic where businesses have been struggling, people may be furloughed and so £100 could mean quite a bit more
		
Click to expand...

Whilst it will to a degree depend on personal circumstances, given that England Golf reckoned the average annual subs in 2018 were £901, members on average are giving up a little over a month's fees to secure the future of their club if they let it slide.  That doesn't seem a lot & I think most probably can afford it, although a large number probably don't want to afford it, which is something completely different.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 5, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			You can argue that, but your comment here "and as previously a compensation offer included a shop voucher I presumed and hoped I'd get my March ( and maybe more) returned in vouchers. " says to me you were gambling on getting more back than you outlayed however the return was made.
		
Click to expand...

I'd outlaid £77.50 each month in January, February and March. I was not looking to be reimbursed more than I'd paid. Just a fair offer of refund. To me it's not right that the refund is linked to another year's membership. My fees were paid in the 2020/21 season, when the course was closed.
If you booked a flight which was cancelled and you asked for your money back and the only offer was another flight a year later when you could not go, would you be happy with that?


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 5, 2021)

drive4show said:



			They will still have rates to pay on the clubhouse,
		
Click to expand...

This is probably only partly true surely  the governments Rates Reduction Scheme scheme comes in to play. We get a rate reduction even in normal years when the club is closed due to the weather.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I'd outlaid £77.50 each month in January, February and March. I was not looking to be reimbursed more than I'd paid. Just a fair offer of refund. To me it's not right that the refund is linked to another year's membership. My fees were paid in the 2020/21 season, when the course was closed.
If you booked a flight which was cancelled and you asked for your money back and the only offer was another flight a year later when you could not go, would you be happy with that?
		
Click to expand...

So why put the "and maybe more" in brackets then? That just says you're wanting to profit out of the situation.
 As I see it, you said you had the opportunity to not pay the last month but chose to in the hope of getting more back in return.  If that ins't gambling on the situation I don't know what is.


----------



## r0wly86 (Mar 5, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Whilst it will to a degree depend on personal circumstances, given that England Golf reckoned the average annual subs in 2018 were £901, members on average are giving up a little over a month's fees to secure the future of their club if they let it slide.  That doesn't seem a lot & I think most probably can afford it, although a large number probably don't want to afford it, which is something completely different.
		
Click to expand...

You don't know what someone's financial circumstances are, you seem to be under the impression that if someone is paying membership then they must be doing okay and be able to afford it. It could be that they don't have a lot of money and the budget a lot in order to afford membership, for people like £100 per month on something they can't use is a lot


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 5, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Why have some clubs given rebates for the first lockdown from the end of March 2020 - mid May 2020....yet it seems on here like many are refusing to for Lockdown 2 and 3 which is November, January, February and March?

.

A cynic would say it's because it was right before renewal time..hence the lockdown 1 rebate..
		
Click to expand...

I would say that is partly true, we were offered it as an incentive to renew and for those that had renewed already but I think no club could have visualised another 4 months of lockdown after coming out of lockdown 1.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 5, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			This is probably only partly true surely  the governments Rates Reduction Scheme scheme comes in to play. We get a rate reduction even in normal years when the club is closed due to the weather.
		
Click to expand...

Do you close your clubhouse when the course is closed?


----------



## 3offTheTee (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I really don't see it like that sorry. I never expected to get the money back in cash, but ultimately I've paid for 3 months for a service that could not be provided and had hoped as in Lockdown 1 there would be an option to be offered a pro shop voucher. Just disappointed that the only "winners" seem to be the members who are staying and the owner who is probably massively in profit - nearly all staff furloughed and still raking it in in membership direct debits.
		
Click to expand...

Jus a quickie and Bering in mind hindsight never made a mistake!

You were paying £77.50 per month correct? How much was the voucher for last time? If you had cancelled the March payment you would not have been too far out with what you received last time apart from Jan and Feb’s payments. Is that correct?


----------



## 3offTheTee (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I really don't see it like that sorry. I never expected to get the money back in cash, but ultimately I've paid for 3 months for a service that could not be provided and had hoped as in Lockdown 1 there would be an option to be offered a pro shop voucher. Just disappointed that the only "winners" seem to be the members who are staying and the owner who is probably massively in profit - nearly all staff furloughed and still raking it in in membership direct debits.
		
Click to expand...

So sorry to ask younbut seem to recall last year you were having problems with Golf Travel or somebody similar with court action possible. What was the outcome please?


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 5, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			You don't know what someone's financial circumstances are, you seem to be under the impression that if someone is paying membership then they must be doing okay and be able to afford it. It could be that they don't have a lot of money and the budget a lot in order to afford membership, for people like £100 per month on something they can't use is a lot
		
Click to expand...

Given the cost of membership and the equipment it's hardly a stretch to consider that people who are members are reasonably okay financially is it?  Yes for some it will be a lot but for an awful lot more it is a price they will be able to absorb.


----------



## r0wly86 (Mar 5, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given the cost of membership and the equipment it's hardly a stretch to consider that people who are members are reasonably okay financially is it?  Yes for some it will be a lot but for an awful lot more it is a price they will be able to absorb.
		
Click to expand...

I for one, have recently changed career and am only paid the London Living Wage. My clubs were gift from my dad who had a windfall. I can budget to pay for a membership, though it means going without other things, I do this because I love golf, I am not well off but budget golf into my life. Paying several months worth of membership and getting nothing back would cause me and my family a lot of stress, that is several hundred pounds that could go into paying off the mortgage earlier or buying a new washing machine or something similar.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 5, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			So sorry to ask younbut seem to recall last year you were having problems with Golf Travel or somebody similar with court action possible. What was the outcome please?
		
Click to expand...

I created a social media WhatsApp group and between us we put pressure on the directors, they paid us back in full, eventually, although we had to remove all our negative feedback on trustpilot and any twitter posts or forum posts where we'd spoken negatively about their antics at the time. I believe months later golfers were still trying to get their refunds.


----------



## 3offTheTee (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I created a social media WhatsApp group and between us we put pressure on the directors, they paid us back in full, eventually, although we had to remove all our negative feedback on trustpilot and any twitter posts or forum posts where we'd spoken negatively about their antics at the time. I believe months later golfers were still trying to get their refunds.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent news . Really pleased for you.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 5, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I created a social media WhatsApp group and between us we put pressure on the directors, they paid us back in full, eventually, although we had to remove all our negative feedback on trustpilot and any twitter posts or forum posts where we'd spoken negatively about their antics at the time. I believe months later golfers were still trying to get their refunds.
		
Click to expand...

I had a trip planned for this April, actually last April but it was rolled over. I've had an email advising it can't go ahead and to click one of 3 options. It won't surprise you that a refund is not one of the 3. The behaviour of some travel firms has been less than open and impressive. I'm pleased you got your money back.


----------



## r0wly86 (Mar 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			You would only pay it if you can afford it.

Once that money is paid, you won't be worse off financially if you can't play golf, that's really a totally separate issue.   You'd be peed off, that's all.

If it purely comes down to money, we are actually better off not playing because we're not spending money on balls, food and drink.   So whilst that might sound silly, it highlights that really it's not about the actual amount of money at all, it's about getting something we've paid for, 2 separate issues.
		
Click to expand...

that's rubbish sorry.

Being able to afford something is not simply the bank balance before and after, but the transaction itself. i.e. I can afford golf membership as I get something out of it, therefore my budgeting is worth it. I go without certain things in order to play golf. If I can no longer play golf, then the membership is no longer affordable.

It's quite possible that you bought coffee from a high street place before lock down, but I doubt you are volunteering to send them £3 a day because you can afford it, because you are no longer getting anything for your money

That money that was going on golf membership could be spent somewhere I am actually getting something. I understand that for a lot here £100 per month for nothing is worth it in order for clubs to be okay, and I get that, if I were in a similar position then I would so the same. But for some people, myself included essentially throwing £100 a month in the bin is extremely stressful.


----------



## Captainron (Mar 5, 2021)

@r0wly86 If you are paying £100 a month to be a member of a golf club and it’s impacting your standard of living then you need to re-evaluate your choices. 

In my original point I was saying that as an example a one off payment of £100 is not going to change anyone’s life here. But a club giving every member that amount is indeed a big deal and could mean them folding.


----------



## patricks148 (Mar 5, 2021)

thinking about it a bit more, i'd be more inclined to want a rebate of some sort if i was at a Proprietary club than a members club, one is making money from what they charge you, or at least trying to. Members clubs its just to run the place not for profit


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 5, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			I for one, have recently changed career and am only paid the London Living Wage. My clubs were gift from my dad who had a windfall. I can budget to pay for a membership, though it means going without other things, I do this because I love golf, I am not well off but budget golf into my life. Paying several months worth of membership and getting nothing back would cause me and my family a lot of stress, that is several hundred pounds that could go into paying off the mortgage earlier or buying a new washing machine or something similar.
		
Click to expand...

It only causes stress if you allow it too. 

Members rounds at my place actually grew this year. You may well have had less months of golf, but how many rounds did you get in during the season? 

Compare the average cost per round compared to greenfees and see if you still feel hard done by. 

I've gotten £0 return for my membership, it cost me approx £18 per round. I'd say that's fair value.


----------



## Captainron (Mar 5, 2021)

Perhaps if clubs waited until next year and rewarded those that stuck by them until they stabilised that would make more sense to those who want something back.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 5, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Another consideration here is that if a club decides to give back say £100 to each full member.

£100 is not a lot of money. You could do without it. It’s a night out or a meal with the wife and kids at a normal restaurant. No one here is going to die if they lose £100. It’s rock all really.

That club has 800 members and all of a sudden that’s £80k gone.

That’s a lot of money. That could be the difference between being there and not got some clubs.

Add on lost revenue from visitors, catering and the bar.

Stop being so short sighted.
		
Click to expand...




r0wly86 said:



			I for one, have recently changed career and am only paid the London Living Wage. My clubs were gift from my dad who had a windfall. I can budget to pay for a membership, though it means going without other things, I do this because I love golf, I am not well off but budget golf into my life. Paying several months worth of membership and getting nothing back would cause me and my family a lot of stress, that is several hundred pounds that could go into paying off the mortgage earlier or buying a new washing machine or something similar.
		
Click to expand...

The original quote, reproduced above, referred to a one off compensation payment of £100.  Not £100 per month.

I understand that £100 per month for nothing would cause people issues, but as a one off £100, for the majority of club members, it would not be an issue and that's what the £100 post was about.  Whilst it might be in your personal circumstances, I don't think that is representative of the average member which is what I was talking about.  And all of us to some degree or another budget to afford golf.


----------



## Pjwgov (Mar 5, 2021)

I think there is a big difference between some members clubs and some proprietary ones. Ours for example is a proprietary club charging nearly £1800. We have not yet received any information regarding rebates/ compensation for loss of golf which =approximately £600. As a business the directors take out a considerably large dividend when times are good, however this golfing year they have been unable to offer us what we pay for and I personally am expecting to be nearly fully repaid.


----------



## Pjwgov (Mar 5, 2021)

Because this golfing year we have lost 4 months


----------



## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Really?

Was nobody furloughed and able to play 7 days a week for months on end?

How about those who were working less than normal and were able to play more?

Some people are conveniently ignoring the many, many extra games they played during the good weather, but are conveniently forgetting they wouldn't have played much anyway in winter.
		
Click to expand...

It's all whataboutism, Many people haven't been furloughed. Senior section that play every day have missed a massive amount of rounds. 

I still work 50 hours a week. My course only shuts for snow, it drains incredibly. 

What's your point?


----------



## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			My point is obvious, read the thread.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, your making assumptions about someone, with no facts. Got it.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Really?

Was nobody furloughed and able to play 7 days a week for months on end?

How about those who were working less than normal and were able to play more?

Some people are conveniently ignoring the many, many extra games they played during the good weather, but are conveniently forgetting they wouldn't have played much anyway in winter.
		
Click to expand...

That’s smoke and mirrors, you pay for 12 months, if you as an individual play 1 day or 365 it’s irrelevant, the Club don’t care,  they have your money, if something out of your or there control then Clubs should at least communicate.

I certainly don’t agree with a full third rebate and in our case I’m happy with no rebate as we have took on substantial works this year.

You have to treat members as 1, not differentiate between rounds played or whether they worked or not all year.


----------



## D-S (Mar 5, 2021)

It seems to me that this thread really shows the difference between those that want to be a member of a golf club and those that merely want a season ticket to a golf course.


----------



## Captainron (Mar 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			It seems to me that this thread really shows the difference between those that want to be a member of a golf club and those that merely want a season ticket to a golf course.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. A golf club is a place where you relax, make friends, spend time and play golf. You should try and add to the place as you should be made to feel like a member and not just a cash source. 

All some people think of is (as an example)
Subs £1000
Rounds played 54
£18.50 a round! Bargain when it’s £45 to visit. I’ve made money!!!! Yes!!!! Booya. Totally worth it. 

Same muppet plays 15 rounds the next year and it’s £66 a smash and all of a sudden it’s, Oh no! Waste of money. I won’t bother next year. Rather pay on as a visitor and then bombs out. Joins another club for “value for money” until they think it isn’t again. 

That’s not a golf club member. That’s a transient who makes no real friends. Adds nothing to the place and probably doesn’t have a drink or a meal at the place. Pitch up, play, go home. Not for me.

Loads of folk I know here have been long standing members at their clubs and it shows when you talk to them about where they play. They love the place. They’re part of the place. They have a group of mates, they have played for the club in matches. They are proud to be there. You don’t see them queuing up with their hands out because they have had more out of the club in experience, friendship and fun than a few quid are worth!


----------



## Steve Wilkes (Mar 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			It seems to me that this thread really shows the difference between those that want to be a member of a golf club and those that merely want a season ticket to a golf course.
		
Click to expand...

And those who would give their wages back to their employer when they can't work cause they've stubbed their tow, or have a two day flu or migraine


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 5, 2021)

a fee for the OP

It was clear early jan that clubs were going to close for a significant period and you had the choice to stop DD but didn’t 

You decided to leave the club at the end of your membership year 

The club have decided to offer credit for the members or on bar card ? 

So if you want to get the credit why don’t you stay at the club ? 

There are many clubs that are giving nothing because they won’t be able to afford it and many clubs are putting it onto bar cards so they get money back into the club 


I really can’t see any issue with what the club have done here and certainly don’t think you should get any pro shop credits when you walked away from the club l.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			It seems to me that this thread really shows the difference between those that want to be a member of a golf club and those that merely want a season ticket to a golf course.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly does seem to be the case but it  also appears that I am personally unrepresentative in that I have been a member of the same club for 39 years.

I reckon I have got more benefit from this membership than it has cost me over those years.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			There's no smoke and mirrors.

I'm paying the highest I've ever paid, but I had full access to the course last year every day of every other week, which more than makes up for the games I've "lost" during lockdowns 2 and 3.

It's not the club's fault they had to close, the club is losing massive amounts of money in F&B, to try and get a rebate would be ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry mate, not sure what F&B is?

As for your other point, at the beginning of any normally year we/you pay the relevant fee to suit your lifestyle, how many times you play is only relevant to you if you are looking at it at cost per round, the Club doesn’t care.

As has been proved on this thread and the other one, there are a lot of Clubs that are compensating members and plenty that are doing nothing, there is “no one solution fits all” and apart ftom 1 post I haven’t seen anyone turn compensation down.

It doesn’t mean it’s wrong for members to ask.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



*That’s smoke and mirrors,* you pay for 12 months, if you as an individual play 1 day or 365 it’s irrelevant, the Club don’t care,  they have your money, if something out of your or there control then Clubs should at least communicate.

I certainly don’t agree with a full third rebate and in our case I’m happy with no rebate as we have took on substantial works this year.

You have to treat members as 1, not differentiate between rounds played or whether they worked or not all year.
		
Click to expand...

The smoke & mirrors for me are the number of people holding clubs responsible for a decision completely out of their control.  It is not the golf club that people should have an issue with, it is the Government, especially as it has been proven that golf was a safe activity to undertake.


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 5, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Spot on. A golf club is a place where you relax, make friends, spend time and play golf. You should try and add to the place as you should be made to feel like a member and not just a cash source.

All some people think of is (as an example)
Subs £1000
Rounds played 54
£18.50 a round! Bargain when it’s £45 to visit. I’ve made money!!!! Yes!!!! Booya. Totally worth it.

Same muppet plays 15 rounds the next year and it’s £66 a smash and all of a sudden it’s, Oh no! Waste of money. I won’t bother next year. Rather pay on as a visitor and then bombs out. Joins another club for “value for money” until they think it isn’t again.

That’s not a golf club member. That’s a transient who makes no real friends. Adds nothing to the place and probably doesn’t have a drink or a meal at the place. Pitch up, play, go home. Not for me.

Loads of folk I know here have been long standing members at their clubs and it shows when you talk to them about where they play. They love the place. They’re part of the place. They have a group of mates, they have played for the club in matches. They are proud to be there. You don’t see them queuing up with their hands out because they have had more out of the club in experience, friendship and fun than a few quid are worth!
		
Click to expand...

Oi! 

I said it cost me £18 a round thank you very much!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The smoke & mirrors for me are the number of people holding clubs responsible for a decision completely out of their control.  It is not the golf club that people should have an issue with, it is the Government, especially as it has been proven that golf was a safe activity to undertake.
		
Click to expand...

That’s the P word and a different thread.


----------



## MendieGK (Mar 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Most golfers are not really getting what they paid for, if we round it up a few days it's about £300 for me.

I've personally decided to just keep paying and not worry about it for 2 reasons:
1. I pay a bit less than most members anyway, and
2.  Bearing in mind what has happened to millions of people's finances, I think not moaning about it is the right way forward.

I've been very, very lucky work wise through all of this,  300 quid is just my very, very small penalty to pay in my head. The weather has been gash anyway.
		
Click to expand...

This is exactly my view


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			It seems to me that this thread really shows the difference between those that want to be a member of a golf club and those that merely want a season ticket to a golf course.
		
Click to expand...

And that Is also basically ths difference between and member owned club and a privately owned one,  so all are facilitated.  I would guess though some here happen to be a member of the wrong one for them.


----------



## evemccc (Mar 5, 2021)

Captainron said:



@r0wly86 If you are paying £100 a month to be a member of a golf club and it’s impacting your standard of living then you need to re-evaluate your choices.
		
Click to expand...

Why? 

The way you’ve written this comes across as, at best, pretty arrogant


----------



## evemccc (Mar 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			No it doesn't.

Why not read the whole 
discussion first.
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea who you or the other two people referred to above are and I doubt they know anything of each other’s  circumstances, outgoings and financial commitments. 

Telling someone they NEED to reevaluate their choices strikes me as condescending and arrogant, in the way it was written


----------



## Captainron (Mar 6, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Why?

The way you’ve written this comes across as, at best, pretty arrogant
		
Click to expand...

I’m simply saying that if someone is prioritising a golf membership ahead of keeping their basic needs (housing, food, clothing etc) and this is causing a financial hardship then they should re-evaluate their choice to keep that membership. The poster was insinuating that he was unable to carry on as normal without his club refunding him his £100 per month membership. That’s not arrogance but rather common sense.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 6, 2021)

Pjwgov said:



			I think there is a big difference between some members clubs and some proprietary ones. Ours for example is a proprietary club charging nearly £1800. We have not yet received any information regarding rebates/ compensation for loss of golf which =approximately £600. As a business the directors take out a considerably large dividend when times are good, however this golfing year they have been unable to offer us what we pay for and I personally am expecting to be nearly fully repaid.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck with that, be interested to hear how you get on.


----------



## Yorkhacker (Mar 6, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Telling someone they NEED to reevaluate their choices strikes me as condescending and arrogant, in the way it was written
		
Click to expand...

IMHO if you're not earning enough to be able to afford the the things you require for day to day living, you shouldn't be a member of a golf club that you can't comfortably afford, no matter how much you love the game . You shouldn't NEED to be told that.


----------



## sunshine (Mar 6, 2021)

evemccc said:



			I have no idea who you or the other two people referred to above are and I doubt they know anything of each other’s  circumstances, outgoings and financial commitments.

Telling someone they NEED to reevaluate their choices strikes me as condescending and arrogant, in the way it was written
		
Click to expand...

The guy has said that paying his golf membership is causing his family stress. 

Golf is a luxury. Whether he gets to play or not he’s still spending £100 a month on it.


----------



## sunshine (Mar 6, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Really?

Was nobody furloughed and able to play 7 days a week for months on end?

How about those who were working less than normal and were able to play more?

Some people are conveniently ignoring the many, many extra games they played during the good weather, but are conveniently forgetting they wouldn't have played much anyway in winter.
		
Click to expand...

I was nodding in agreement with all your comments until this post. 

I only know a couple of people who were furloughed. You can’t make decisions based on one small group of people who were able to play every day. They were the winners. 

I’m not campaigning for a rebate but I think a club has to look after the majority membership as a whole.


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Do you close your clubhouse when the course is closed?
		
Click to expand...

 Not if it is just closed for bad weather. We are open to the general public as a pay and play facility. I do not know if tis makes a difference. Our 9 hole course can be closed for several days, occasionally weeks due to flooding, the Environment Agency has the right to treat it as a flood relief area and again this might be part of the reason.

We had a seriously good treasurer a few years back and he found all this out in his term of office.


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			thinking about it a bit more, i'd be more inclined to want a rebate of some sort if i was at a Proprietary club than a members club, one is making money from what they charge you, or at least trying to. Members clubs its just to run the place not for profit
		
Click to expand...

Not quite sure that stacks up. 

I cannot see the running costs of a proprietary club and a members club being that much different.

Our members club is run as a business and needs to be run on a sound financial footing with the aim being to make a profit and not a loss.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Not quite sure that stacks up.

I cannot see the running costs of a proprietary club and a members club being that much different.

Our members club is run as a business and needs to be run on a sound financial footing with the aim being to make a profit and not a loss.
		
Click to expand...

The difference is that in the good years a propriety may take money out of the club,  in which case members,  or as I prefer,  season ticket holders,  should not have to foot the bill in the bad years.  I do appreciate though that it is not always the case.


----------



## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Not quite sure that stacks up.

I cannot see the running costs of a proprietary club and a members club being that much different.

Our members club is run as a business and needs to be run on a sound financial footing with the aim being to make a profit and not a loss.
		
Click to expand...

Ok so where does the profit go from your members club and where will it got for a proprietary???


----------



## D-S (Mar 6, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Ok so where does the profit go from your members club and where will it got for a proprietary???
		
Click to expand...

Quite simply in a members club it will be 100% reinvested into the club in some way shape or form. Maybe in course or clubhouse equipment or infrastructure. Perhaps it will be used to reduce prices of food and beverage or even to subsidise subscription levels. There is no where else to put it bar the Club.
In a proprietary club it is entirely down to the owner, they could reinvest into the club, facilities or members , pay off any debt or simply pocket it.


----------



## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2021)

D-S said:



			Quite simply in a members club it will be 100% reinvested into the club in some way shape or form. Maybe in course or clubhouse equipment or infrastructure. Perhaps it will be used to reduce prices of food and beverage or even to subsidise subscription levels. There is no where else to put it bar the Club.
In a proprietary club it is entirely down to the owner, they could reinvest into the club, facilities or members , pay off any debt or simply pocket it.
		
Click to expand...

yes i know where it goes the questions was aimed at the reply to my post where " it doesn't stack up"


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			yes i know where it goes the questions was aimed at the reply to my post where " it doesn't stack up"
		
Click to expand...

 As per D-S

Any body who runs a business does not necessarily put the profits (if there are any in the first place) in to their pockets many will make further investment in to the  business.

As an aside,  If I had invested millions of my own money into starting up a business and it was sole source of income I would expecting to be taking something out of the business to live on.


----------



## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			As per D-S

Any body who runs a business does not necessarily put the profits (if there are any in the first place) in to their pockets many will make further investment in to the  business.

As an aside,  If I had invested millions of my own money into starting up a business and it was sole source of income I would expecting to be taking something out of the business to live on.
		
Click to expand...

of course you would, but why whould you pay someone thats making money from it not to use it???

i have no problem paying a members club as its whats being invested back in the club, i would feel different about a prop club thats all


----------



## RichA (Mar 6, 2021)

We're all different. Our clubs are all different. I chose a small, local, private, beautiful but rough around the edges club because it's £610 per year for unlimited golf. I don't think the owner is trousering a fortune in profits, but he is providing a living for a dozen or so local people.
The local big member owned club costs £1250 entry fee plus £1250 per year to be a member. That wasn't for me - I'd be hacked off at the moment if I'd laid out £2500 and missed 4 months of golf. 
I don't pretend to know the answers or wish to tell others how to live their lives, but there are always choices.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 6, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Ok so where does the profit go from your members club and where will it got for a proprietary???
		
Click to expand...

As an example of how our proprietary club is run, a few years ago it was club championship day, two rounds on one day. It was baking hot. After my second round and a shower I went in to the bar to get a drink and a meal only to be told they had stopped serving food! 

I guess the owners had worked out it was not "profitable" to keep the chef on passed a certain time even on club championship day!!!


----------



## nickjdavis (Mar 6, 2021)

I feel exceptionally hard done by this last year as I haven't got the most from my free membership as Club Captain.

I think I should get a refund of the fees that I didn't pay for the period when I couldn't play golf.


----------



## full_throttle (Mar 6, 2021)

Our renewal date has moved from April 1 to May 1. All members renewing their membership will get a discount on their fees equivalent of one months fees. Prices have been frozen for a second year.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I feel exceptionally hard done by this last year as I haven't got the most from my free membership as Club Captain.

I think I should get a refund of the fees that I didn't pay for the period when I couldn't play golf.



Click to expand...

Are you being extended?  Our Captain & Vice Captain have been extended for another year, or will be assuming the AGM ratifies the recommendation.


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I feel exceptionally hard done by this last year as I haven't got the most from my free membership as Club Captain.

I think I should get a refund of the fees that I didn't pay for the period when I couldn't play golf.



Click to expand...

 And all the free rounds of golf you would have had at other courses.


----------



## SammmeBee (Mar 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			And all the free rounds of golf you would have had at other courses.
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully all that nonsense has been stopped now.....!


----------



## nickjdavis (Mar 6, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Are you being extended?  Our Captain & Vice Captain have been extended for another year, or will be assuming the AGM ratifies the recommendation.
		
Click to expand...

No. This is my second stint as Captain and after the first (7 years ago) I said "never again" whilst I was in full time employment...whilst proud to be asked to return as Club Captain it was something I accepted with a degree of reluctance as there were no people seemingly willing to put themselves forward. Whilst the normal Captains activities have largely been curtailed by "global events" the workload was more than made up for with the fumbling implementation of the WHS, which I took on a highly active role within the club to ensure a smooth transition.

The Ladies and Seniors Captains have chosen to extend for another year but I've declined...I will continue to support the new Captain as "immediate Past Captain" and will also continue as Treasurer (a role I've fulfilled for the last 5 years or so) for the next year.

After that I'm going to be like Steve Redgrave and if you ever see me near a committee again you can shoot me.

(Famous last words  )


----------



## nickjdavis (Mar 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			And all the free rounds of golf you would have had at other courses.
		
Click to expand...

In two stints as Captain I never had a free round at any course anywhere.

I only ever asked once, as a means of helping reduce the costs for a group of golfers who were playing Royal St. Georges, but courtesy was declined.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			No. This is my second stint as Captain and after the first (7 years ago) I said "never again" whilst I was in full time employment...whilst proud to be asked to return as Club Captain it was something I accepted with a degree of reluctance as there were no people seemingly willing to put themselves forward. Whilst the normal Captains activities have largely been curtailed by "global events" the workload was more than made up for with the fumbling implementation of the WHS, which I took on a highly active role within the club to ensure a smooth transition.

The Ladies and Seniors Captains have chosen to extend for another year but I've declined...I will continue to support the new Captain as "immediate Past Captain" and will also continue as Treasurer (a role I've fulfilled for the last 5 years or so) for the next year.

After that I'm going to be like Steve Redgrave and if you ever see me near a committee again you can shoot me.

(Famous last words  )
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough, was thinking you might have been deprived by the circumstances but you're obviously happy to pass on the baton.


----------



## nickjdavis (Mar 7, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Fair enough, was thinking you might have been deprived by the circumstances but you're obviously happy to pass on the baton. 

Click to expand...

more like most British relay teams and either drop the baton or throw it wildly in the general direction of the next man!!! 

Seriously though....it is a great honour and I do enjoy the challenges it throws up in a strange perverted way, but having seen my game decline over the last 5 years or so I really want to just get out now and enjoy my golf, work on my game and drag myself back down into mid single figures again.


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 7, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			In two stints as Captain I never had a free round at any course anywhere.

I only ever asked once, as a means of helping reduce the costs for a group of golfers who were playing Royal St. Georges, but courtesy was declined.
		
Click to expand...

 We had one Captain who took this courtesy to an extreme and it was getting talked about in circles outside of our club. He never played anywhere where they would not give him courtesy of the course apparently.


----------



## 5OTT (Mar 7, 2021)

1st lockdown nothing.
2nd Lockdown the club have frozen our membership rates for the year and extended the membership period by one month.
I understand that is more than many other places but when we have been locked down for 3 months it doesn't sound that great.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 10, 2021)

Just out of interest why would this not apply to me at my proprietary club?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			Just out of interest why would this not apply to me at my proprietary club?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

Click to expand...

Why would it apply to you ?

They are offering a compensation to all their members for the loss of services during lockdown- they are satisfying any obligations. You have made the choice to leave the club - why should they change that compensation to suit people who don’t want to stay at the club ?


----------



## Imurg (Mar 10, 2021)

If you're delving into the lion's pit that is the Law then you need to get someone on it who knows what they're talking about..not a bunch of stir crazy golfers..


----------



## evemccc (Mar 10, 2021)

A quick cursory reading of this would suggest (to me at least) that golf club members would be entitled to some form of rebate for November, January-March of legally enforced lockdown 

The golf club cannot provide the service (through no fault of its own) - due to govt rules

And yes - as @Imurg suggests, any legal minds on here?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 10, 2021)

Because the product being  offered i.e. the facility to play golf does not come with a  guarantee of availability.

A particularly harsh  winter, for instance, could lead to the facility not being available for weeks on end.


----------



## evemccc (Mar 10, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Because the product being  offered i.e. the facility to play golf does not come with a  guarantee of availability.

A particularly harsh  winter, for instance, could lead to the facility not being available for weeks on end.
		
Click to expand...

And having read the pertinent parts of the govt website relating to ‘ongoing contracts’ — it still appears that members would be entitled to at least part refund 

The govt enforced lockdown rules mandate that courses have to close — irrespective of weather — that is the overriding reason, the only relevant reason in this case — why ‘ongoing contracts cannot be fulfilled’ —- ipso facto, and according to the govt article above, members are entitled to recompense


----------



## SammmeBee (Mar 10, 2021)

Yep - here’s your money and now bugger off and play golf somewhere else.......


----------



## evemccc (Mar 10, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Yep - here’s your money and now bugger off and play golf somewhere else.......
		
Click to expand...

That sort of fear-mongering / leveraged threat wouldn’t wash with me whatsoever 

Given I only joined as a Full a week before lockdown, that’s fine by me - I’m not giving up a  load of lifelong golfing friends 

There are plenty of courses nearby and plenty of scope to be a Nomad who plays green-fee golf

Besides, I work in the week, and have other hobbies / commitments at wkds, so being a green-fee golfer isn’t the end of the world for me

So i am not really sure what you’re aiming at..?


----------



## SammmeBee (Mar 10, 2021)

evemccc said:



			That sort of fear-mongering / leveraged threat wouldn’t wash with me whatsoever

Given I only joined as a Full a week before lockdown, that’s fine by me - I’m not giving up a  load of lifelong golfing friends

There are plenty of courses nearby and plenty of scope to be a Nomad who plays green-fee golf

Besides, I work in the week, and have other hobbies / commitments at wkds, so being a green-fee golfer isn’t the end of the world for me

So i am not really sure what you’re aiming at..?
		
Click to expand...

Then it shouldn’t bother you then but it took a lot of words to say it didn’t.  Get a solicitor to write a letter for you and you should get enough back to pay them for their services and have a enough left over for a sleeve of Vices.....


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 10, 2021)

evemccc said:



			And having read the pertinent parts of the govt website relating to ‘ongoing contracts’ — it still appears that members would be entitled to at least part refund

The govt enforced lockdown rules mandate that courses have to close — irrespective of weather — that is the overriding reason, the only relevant reason in this case — why ‘ongoing contracts cannot be fulfilled’ —- ipso facto, and according to the govt article above, members are entitled to recompense
		
Click to expand...

Makes no difference. 

There is no breach of contract. The contract does not provide unfettered access.


----------



## DanFST (Mar 10, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Then it shouldn’t bother you then but it took a lot of words to say it didn’t.  Get a solicitor to write a letter for you and you should get enough back to pay them for their services and have a enough left over for a sleeve of Vices.....
		
Click to expand...

What course do you own?

You talk pretty poorly to anyone who has a different opinion with you on this subject.


----------



## SammmeBee (Mar 10, 2021)

DanFST said:



			What course do you own?

You talk pretty poorly to anyone who has a different opinion with you on this subject.
		
Click to expand...

Lol!  If you don’t like an opinion then don’t ask for one!  

If 2 parties disagree then it can always be settles via a legal route and on eventual ruling, whichever way it is, there will be a cost to 1, probably both parties, and a concession in the other direction.  I’d rather carry in playing golf where I do rather than quibble over a few hundred quid.....


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Makes no difference.

There is no breach of contract. The contract does not provide unfettered access.
		
Click to expand...

From the complex terms and conditions:

_We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid_

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 11, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			From the complex terms and conditions:

_We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid_

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

What income has the Club received from other sources?

No green fees.
No societies/corporate days.
No range fees
No bar sales 
No catering

 Only membership fees coming in to meet admin staff salaries, reduced greenstaff wages, other costs such as machinery servicing and repairs, course materials, rates and, if applicable,  rent, insurances etc;

Maybe your Club had none of these costs although I think that is unlikely. 

One thing is certain,  they won't have had any income from the sources I listed.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 11, 2021)

Would the club be entitled to any government grants.
Most businesses would be?


----------



## Bdill93 (Mar 11, 2021)

No comms still - I dont think we are being given anything this time around and to be honest im not fussed at all.

My club, its owners and all the staff are worth every penny I pay. They can have my fees no questions asked. Cant wait to see them again soon!


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			What income has the Club received from other sources?

No green fees.
No societies/corporate days.
No range fees
No bar sales
No catering

Only membership fees coming in to meet admin staff salaries, reduced greenstaff wages, other costs such as machinery servicing and repairs, course materials, rates and, if applicable,  rent, insurances etc;

Maybe your Club had none of these costs although I think that is unlikely.

One thing is certain,  they won't have had any income from the sources I listed.
		
Click to expand...

I guess the flip side is when they have amazing months and make £10,000's from green fees, societies/corporate days, range fees, bar sales & catering - is the money ploughed back in to the club or taken as better profits for the owners?


----------



## chrisd (Mar 11, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			From the complex terms and conditions:

_We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid_

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.
		
Click to expand...




Kennysarmy said:



			From the complex terms and conditions:

_We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid_

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Quite clearly you may have to go to a small claims court to argue your case and having done a number of cases myself the work needed to present the case, the stress etc wouldn't be worth £225 imo. I currently work in a leisure industry setting and even whilst everyone, but me, is 100% furloughed there are any number of bill's still coming in water, electricity,  phone, insurance etc etc. so if there's no income I'm pretty sure that there will likely be a thumping loss at the year end. If, of course, they cant pay debts as the become due then they would probably call in administrators and lose the business so cash in bank is pretty vital

I personally agree that your bar credit should be refunded and fully understand your view on a private club compared to a member club but I'm in a member club who are making no concessions but if I were to leave I'd get nothing and personally see little difference as a member - I'm only a member as long as I pay, exactly the same as a limited company member. In fact all of our Club is run under the umbrella of a limited company, which is quite normal now, as I see it there is very little difference in the two different types of club except member clubs have more say over the day to day running 

I certainly wouldn't make too much fuss and just go somewhere else as, at least, you can always go back if you find that the grass isn't greener.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 11, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			I guess the flip side is when they have amazing months and make £10,000's from green fees, societies/corporate days, range fees, bar sales & catering - is the money ploughed back in to the club or taken as better profits for the owners?
		
Click to expand...

That is completely different question and has more to do with the owners' business acumen.


----------



## RichA (Mar 11, 2021)

I have never been a business owner, only an employee, but many of my friends own business of various sizes. I don't know any who are just looking to trouser more and more profit. Most are looking to pay off the money they borrowed to set up or expand and improve the business, often providing jobs in the process. Sometimes they put the profits aside to protect the business and its employees for when times are hard - like now.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			What income has the Club received from other sources?

No green fees.
No societies/corporate days.
No range fees
No bar sales
No catering

Only membership fees coming in to meet admin staff salaries, reduced greenstaff wages, other costs such as machinery servicing and repairs, course materials, rates and, if applicable,  rent, insurances etc;

Maybe your Club had none of these costs although I think that is unlikely.

One thing is certain,  they won't have had any income from the sources I listed.
		
Click to expand...

I think the point Kenny is trying to make,  is that there is no difference between a privtely owned (propriety) golf club and any other private service provider in legal terms,  and therefore the owners have a legal obligation to offer a refund.  Would you be taking the same view if we were talking here about a 2nd division ST, Rugby union ST,  a flight, rented holiday accomadation,  these also have costs which they have no been able to recroup during the pandemic and have just as much right to stay in business as a privately owned golf club.  Whether or not an individual should choose to take such a refund is another debate all together,  for me it would depend on how well I felt the owners looked after their members in the good years.  

I am currently a member of a memeber owned club and have recieved a 6 week refund for the first lockdown,  but nothing for the other 2 lockdowns.  I am more than happy with that and would have accepted paying full fee's throughout as I know the money would be invested back into the club.  Incidently the club managed to substanitailly improve their balance sheet  (recent years have been loss making) during the first six months of the pandemic due to an increase in membership and active management of costs.


----------



## RichA (Mar 11, 2021)

Things like flights, rail tickets and holiday accommodation have specific legislation or voluntary codes of practice that providers sign up to, where refunds for loss of service have to be guaranteed.
With any other kind of transaction I assume it's down to the written contract or whatever is implied by existing consumer law for the particular circumstances. I can't imagine many, if any, golf clubs or gyms factored compulsory closure for a global pandemic into their contingencies. They're probably as bemused by the situation as we are and are trying to figure out what to do to appease, compensate and keep their customers.
Maybe it's too soon to expect them to have come up with solutions. Not all clubs have renewal dates in line with the financial year. Mine is based purely on the date you first signed up.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 11, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			I think the point Kenny is trying to make,  is that there is no difference between a privtely owned (propriety) golf club and any other private service provider in legal terms,  and therefore the owners have a legal obligation to offer a refund.  Would you be taking the same view if we were talking here about a 2nd division ST, Rugby union ST,  a flight, rented holiday accomadation,  these also have costs which they have no been able to recroup during the pandemic and have just as much right to stay in business as a privately owned golf club.  Whether or not an individual should choose to take such a refund is another debate all together,  for me it would depend on how well I felt the owners looked after their members in the good years. 

I am currently a member of a memeber owned club and have recieved a 6 week refund for the first lockdown,  but nothing for the other 2 lockdowns.  I am more than happy with that and would have accepted paying full fee's throughout as I know the money would be invested back into the club.  Incidently the club managed to substanitailly improve their balance sheet  (recent years have been loss making) during the first six months of the pandemic due to an increase in membership and active management of costs.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this.

How many would be up in arms had Sky Sports decided to take your January to March direct debits and in return provide no service.
Yes I understand a couple of green keepers might have cut a bit of grass in those few months!


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 11, 2021)

I've emailed the owners quoting the government website, previously linked, to enquire if it's not applicable then why.
I'm almost more curious than anything else now.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Quite clearly you may have to go to a small claims court to argue your case and having done a number of cases myself the work needed to present the case, the stress etc wouldn't be worth £225 imo. I currently work in a leisure industry setting and even whilst everyone, but me, is 100% furloughed there are any number of bill's still coming in water, electricity,  phone, insurance etc etc. *so if there's no income I'm pretty sure that there will likely be a thumping loss at the year end.* If, of course, they cant pay debts as the become due then they would probably call in administrators and lose the business so cash in bank is pretty vital

I personally agree that your bar credit should be refunded and fully understand your view on a private club compared to a member club but I'm in a member club who are making no concessions but if I were to leave I'd get nothing and personally see little difference as a member - I'm only a member as long as I pay, exactly the same as a limited company member. In fact all of our Club is run under the umbrella of a limited company, which is quite normal now, as I see it there is very little difference in the two different types of club except member clubs have more say over the day to day running

I certainly wouldn't make too much fuss and just go somewhere else as, at least, you can always go back if you find that the grass isn't greener.
		
Click to expand...

Some Clubs had a massive income uplift when open this year and either broke even or made a profit.


----------



## DanFST (Mar 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Some Clubs had a massive income uplift when open this year and either broke even or made a profit.
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine especially those who disregarded the members and opened up to visitors straight away. 

Demand for golf was/will be super high. I know I spent at least 600 quid on tee times at a hotel course close to me.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 11, 2021)

The main point is simple 

You have been offered a compensation package - the club have offered you a return for the fees you paid out during lockdown 

The issue is you are choosing to leave the club so won’t be able to use that compensation package - that’s not the clubs fault 

You just don’t like the compensation they have offered


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 11, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			I think the point Kenny is trying to make,  is that there is no difference between a privtely owned (propriety) golf club and any other private service provider in legal terms,  and* therefore the owners have a legal obligation to offer a refund. * Would you be taking the same view if we were talking here about a 2nd division ST, Rugby union ST,  a flight, rented holiday accomadation,  these also have costs which they have no been able to recroup during the pandemic and have just as much right to stay in business as a privately owned golf club.  Whether or not an individual should choose to take such a refund is another debate all together,  for me it would depend on how well I felt the owners looked after their members in the good years. 

I am currently a member of a memeber owned club and have recieved a 6 week refund for the first lockdown,  but nothing for the other 2 lockdowns.  I am more than happy with that and would have accepted paying full fee's throughout as I know the money would be invested back into the club.  Incidently the club managed to substanitailly improve their balance sheet  (recent years have been loss making) during the first six months of the pandemic due to an increase in membership and active management of costs.
		
Click to expand...

Do they; have they* failed* to provide a service, thus breaching their contract, or have they *been prevented* from providing a service by Government decree therefore leaving them unable to fulfil their contract?  I think there's a huge difference there, and one that would doom any action against the club to failure; the only winners in sorting it out will be the lawyers.


----------



## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do they; have they* failed* to provide a service, thus breaching their contract, or have they *been prevented* from providing a service by Government decree therefore leaving them unable to fulfil their contract?  I think there's a huge difference there, and one that would doom any action against the club to failure; the only winners in sorting it out will be the lawyers.
		
Click to expand...

It is interesting as on that basis you could be looking at frustration as a legal solution and so no party should be penalised but each party should be returned to the position in which they would have been should the contract not have been entered into. Still points towards are refund. Not supporting that argument, just looking at it with a lawyer head on.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 11, 2021)

The last thing we want is lawyers involved.


----------



## chrisd (Mar 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Some Clubs had a massive income uplift when open this year and either broke even or made a profit.
		
Click to expand...

We had a fair increase in membership but restrictions on the numbers of players allowed out, increased tee time gaps, no food drink, restricted societies etc etc hit income pretty hard, but extra membership certainly helped.


----------



## chrisd (Mar 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It is interesting as on that basis you could be looking at frustration as a legal solution and so no party should be penalised but each party should be returned to the position in which they would have been should the contract not have been entered into. Still points towards are refund. Not supporting that argument, just looking at it with a lawyer head on.
		
Click to expand...

Frustration crossed my mind too. The only thing might be the difficulty in determining the gaps where he could play and those when he couldn't,  is there such a concept as a "partial frustration" as the contract has not been frustrated in its entirety?


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The main point is simple

You have been offered a compensation package - the club have offered you a return for the fees you paid out during lockdown

The issue is you are choosing to leave the club so won’t be able to use that compensation package - that’s not the clubs fault

You just don’t like the compensation they have offered
		
Click to expand...

Or the main point is simple.

Am I legally entitled to a cash refund or not?


----------



## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Frustration crossed my mind too. The only thing might be the difficulty in determining the gaps where he could play and those wheels he couldn't,  is there such a concept as a "partial frustration" as the contract has not been frustrated in its entirety?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure as my contract law is a bit out of date. Worst case for a club is that the ruling is that the contract was for 12 months of golf, by failing to provide that, the contract is frustrated in its entirety and so a refund on the full year's fees is due. Sadly I suspect that it is only a matter of time before someone decides to challenge this in court and so clubs may be wary to do something to keep members on side rather than risk a prejudicial ruling, that or England Golf and the other national bodies may want to take the advice of a barrister now on likely outcomes.


----------



## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The main point is simple

You have been offered a compensation package - the club have offered you a return for the fees you paid out during lockdown

The issue is you are choosing to leave the club so won’t be able to use that compensation package - that’s not the clubs fault

You just don’t like the compensation they have offered
		
Click to expand...

I guess the argument is, again from a legal standing, is whether a package of compensation for the previous year that necessitates signing up for another year of membership is fair and equitable.


----------



## chrisd (Mar 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not sure as my contract law is a bit out of date. Worst case for a club is that the ruling is that the contract was for 12 months of golf, by failing to provide that, the contract is frustrated in its entirety and so a refund on the full year's fees is due. Sadly I suspect that it is only a matter of time before someone decides to challenge this in court and so clubs may be wary to do something to keep members on side rather than risk a prejudicial ruling, that or England Golf and the other national bodies may want to take the advice of a barrister now on likely outcomes.
		
Click to expand...

Surely the contract would have an "act of god" clause in it ?


----------



## Steve Wilkes (Mar 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not sure as my contract law is a bit out of date. Worst case for a club is that the ruling is that the contract was for 12 months of golf, by failing to provide that, the contract is frustrated in its entirety and so a refund on the full year's fees is due. Sadly I suspect that it is only a matter of time before someone decides to challenge this in court and so clubs may be wary to do something to keep members on side rather than risk a prejudicial ruling, that or England Golf and the other national bodies may want to take the advice of a barrister now on likely outcomes.
		
Click to expand...

It might be called 12 Months Membership rather than 12 Months of being allowed to play golf any time, just for this reason


----------



## chrisd (Mar 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I guess the argument is, again from a legal standing, is whether a package of compensation for the previous year that necessitates signing up for another year of membership is fair and equitable.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting! I personally doubt the legality ( I am not a lawyer) of a contract that offers this but if a contract between Club and player is offered and renewed annually the owners surely could indicate that previous year members would be offered different terms than others who may be newly joining. Does a new contract have to be " fair and equitable " compared to a previous one?


----------



## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			It might be called 12 Months Membership rather than 12 Months of being allowed to play golf any time, just for this reason
		
Click to expand...

No idea how it would pan out as it will be a while before any covid related claims start to hit the courts (ironically due to court congestion due to covid). My gut feeling though is that would not be the case as you would then need to define what you were entitled to for that membership and so not being able to use the course or facilities would imply that you received nothing. As I said, just hypothesising really but I suspect it will not be too long before a few people challenge memberships in court.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not sure as my contract law is a bit out of date. Worst case for a club is that the ruling is that the contract was for 12 months of golf, by failing to provide that, the contract is frustrated in its entirety and so a refund on the full year's fees is due. Sadly I suspect that it is only a matter of time before someone decides to challenge this in court and so clubs may be wary to do something to keep members on side rather than risk a prejudicial ruling, that or England Golf and the other national bodies may want to take the advice of a barrister now on likely outcomes.
		
Click to expand...

When I asked England Golf about it - this was their response:

Hi , England Golf has no jurisdiction on membership subscriptions. These are a private agreement between each club and it's members.


----------



## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Interesting! I personally doubt the legality ( I am not a lawyer) of a contract that offers this but if a contract between Club and player is offered and renewed annually the owners surely could indicate that previous year members would be offered different terms than others who may be newly joining. Does a new contract have to be " fair and equitable " compared to a previous one?
		
Click to expand...

I am a lawyer, though not in the area in question. The argument would be that the compensation would be for breach of the previous contract and so to include in the compensation in a subsequent contract may not be acceptable.


----------



## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			When I asked England Golf about it - this was their response:

Hi , England Golf has no jurisdiction on membership subscriptions. These are a private agreement between each club and it's members.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree that they have no jurisdiction but it may be something that they should be seeking general advice on so as they can best advise their union members.


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 11, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, *if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners* when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. ?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

The bit I have highlighted is the one flaw in your argument. Without seeing the  Accounts for the year how do you know this to be true?


----------



## Steve Wilkes (Mar 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			No idea how it would pan out as it will be a while before any covid related claims start to hit the courts (ironically due to court congestion due to covid). My gut feeling though is that would not be the case as you would then need to define what you were entitled to for that membership and so not being able to use the course or facilities would imply that you received nothing. As I said, just hypothesising really but I suspect it will not be too long before a few people challenge memberships in court.
		
Click to expand...

I think the problem might be, in most cases there is not a written contract of what that Membership comprises of.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 11, 2021)

Traminator said:



			When you say "refund", did they send you money or deduct it from the next annual membership fee?
		
Click to expand...

Deducted from my renewal.


----------



## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I think the problem might be, in most cases there is not a written contract of what that Membership comprises of.
		
Click to expand...

Very true. Again, hypothetically speaking, I would be looking on the club website and literature. Most of them have a section entitled 'benefits of membership' and I suspect many allude to the amount of golf you can play (those in areas that drain well may even say golf al year round) plus use of practice facilities, bar, restaurant, pro shop etc. That is what I would be quoting in court as my evidence of what I was due under my membership. I would then wait for the counter argument that they wanted to provide these things but could not due to government pandemic regulations and I would reply with my case that the contract had been frustrated as both parties wanted to perform their obligations but were prevented from doing so, hence frustration, hence contract set aside and so full refund for the year. 

Please note that this is me just playing a legal scenario in my head, no doing this (I ended my membership last Xmas) and not advocating this as the way to proceed.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Very true. Again, hypothetically speaking, I would be looking on the club website and literature. Most of them have a section entitled 'benefits of membership' and I suspect many allude to the amount of golf you can play (those in areas that drain well may even say golf al year round) plus use of practice facilities, bar, restaurant, pro shop etc. That is what I would be quoting in court as my evidence of what I was due under my membership. I would then wait for the counter argument that they wanted to provide these things but could not due to government pandemic regulations and I would reply with my case that the contract had been frustrated as both parties wanted to perform their obligations but were prevented from doing so, hence frustration, hence contract set aside and so full refund for the year.

Please note that this is me just playing a legal scenario in my head, no doing this (I ended my membership last Xmas) and not advocating this as the way to proceed.
		
Click to expand...

I find the law dosnt necessarily always follow logic.
My thinking would be if this scenario was correct the club could sue the government for making them close .


----------



## huds1475 (Mar 12, 2021)

I bought new irons last Feb, spread the payment over 12 months, interest free.

Should I expect money back off the retailer as I wasn't able to 'game' my clubs due to Covid?


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I find the law dosnt necessarily always follow logic.
My thinking would be if this scenario was correct *the club could sue the government* for making them close .
		
Click to expand...

Given that all the evidence points to there being no risk, or no more risk than other permitted activities, you'd like to think that they had a case.


----------



## DanFST (Mar 13, 2021)

huds1475 said:



			I bought new irons last Feb, spread the payment over 12 months, interest free.

Should I expect money back off the retailer as I wasn't able to 'game' my clubs due to Covid?
		
Click to expand...


You still have clubs. Shall we applaud Ryanair for not giving 2 million people any money back due to the pandemic? 

After all they have staff to pay, planes to maintain.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 13, 2021)

huds1475 said:



			I bought new irons last Feb, spread the payment over 12 months, interest free.

Should I expect money back off the retailer as I wasn't able to 'game' my clubs due to Covid?
		
Click to expand...

You paid for something, you have something. 

Relevance to thread is?


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			You paid for something, you have something.

Relevance to thread is?
		
Click to expand...

You paid for membership of a golf club, you have membership of a golf club; you cannot use it because of Government decree, not because of a failing on the golf club's part.  

Should you not be chasing the Government rather than the club?


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			You paid for membership of a golf club, you have membership of a golf club; you cannot use it because of Government decree, not because of a failing on the golf club's part. 

Should you not be chasing the Government rather than the club?
		
Click to expand...

This is where the confusion lies,  in my opinion, you can call it what you like,  but annual subs paid to a propriety club is for a season ticket  to play the course and use its facilities it is not membership in the normal sense.  No different as far as I can see from.membership of a gym and nobody would suggest Gyms should keep.hold of your money. If challenged in court I'm confident the OP would win, whether he should do that though I am not so sure.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			This is where the confusion lies,  in my opinion, you can call it what you like,  but annual subs paid to a propriety club is for a season ticket  to play the course and use its facilities it is not membership in the normal sense.  No different as far as I can see from.membership of a gym and nobody would suggest Gyms should keep.hold of your money. If challenged in court I'm confident the OP would win, whether he should do that though I am not so sure.
		
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see it any differently; the facility you paid for, either membership or a season ticket, was unavailable due to the interference of an outside agency, not because of defect on the provider's part.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see it any differently; the facility you paid for, either membership or a season ticket, was unavailable due to the interference of an outside agency, not because of defect on the provider's part.
		
Click to expand...

And the same applies to the gym, an airline, airbnb,  wedding veues,  but nobody is suggesting that these businesses aren't required to offer refunds.  member owned courese/clubs though are different as I see it.


----------



## Bdill93 (Mar 26, 2021)

Just heard off the club. 

Direct debit members will not pay fees for May, June, July and August in compensation for lost golf. 

Annual fee members will have a third of their previous 2020 annual fee taken off the new 2021 rate when sent their renewal letters. 

Fantastic decision for the owners/ management (propriety club) to make on behalf of the members. They have mentioned the club will be short of funds for a year but they could not see a reason to profit out of the members. 

2 days to go!


----------



## howbow88 (Mar 26, 2021)

I can absolutely understand people suggesting that getting a refund may cripple the club, and the enforced closures are clearly not their fault. But in terms of legalities, I don't think any club would have a leg to stand if it did go all the way to court. The comparisons to airlines and gyms are valid, I think.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 26, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			I can absolutely understand people suggesting that getting a refund may cripple the club, and the enforced closures are clearly not their fault. But in terms of legalities, I don't think any club would have a leg to stand if it did go all the way to court. The comparisons to airlines and gyms are valid, I think.
		
Click to expand...

Not in my view,  when you join a members owned facility you become a share holder and have a say on how that facility is run and financed and therefore you will have a say in the level if any of compensation. This is in no comparable to any gym or airline I know.


----------



## howbow88 (Mar 26, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Not in my view,  when you join a members owned facility you become a share holder and have a say on how that facility is run and financed and therefore you will have a say in the level if any of compensation. This is in no comparable to any gym or airline I know.
		
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on the arrangement. Judging by the opening post, I don't think your examples applies in this particular case.


----------



## JamesR (Mar 26, 2021)

You pay to be a member for a period of time, not to use somewhere a certain amount of times.

The club hasn’t stopped you using its facilities, the government has.

As such the club should not have to refund, as you are still a member for that time period (even if you haven’t had access to the facilities)


----------



## J55TTC (Mar 26, 2021)

No increase in subs and a decent sum to spend in the bar or pro shop. Lots of work done on the course too. 

If I had the option to get money knocked off / paid back or that they cracked on doing a great job looking after the course, I’d choose the latter every time. There may not be an immediate benefit but the course benefits in the long term. 

They’ve renewed 2 sets of stairs, upgraded some pathways to rubber and returfed several worn high traffic areas. All of this is for the greater good of the club and it’s members.


----------



## matt71 (Mar 26, 2021)

Nothing from our place and they even put the subs up this year 😢


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2021)

matt71 said:



			Nothing from our place and they even put the subs up this year 😢
		
Click to expand...

Ours went up a couple of % but as the club had compensated us for last time and many put the compensation on their club account, we didn’t add the normal club account ‘levy’ that is paid on renewal so in effect we paid the same as last year. 

Also what’s important for us as a members club was the course forum held couple of weeks back - 200+ members attended...when the Club Chairman, Club Manager and Head Greenkeeper presented all that has been done on the course over winter - and explained the rationale - and described what our course architect is recommending for four of our holes (significant changes).  That’s important for me as it shows where my subs are going...and why - plus what further financial compensation to members would put at risk.


----------



## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2021)

Golf clubs do talk to each other. It is a very small circle.

I know of two people in out area who took their respective golf clubs to court (for what ever reason). Their renewals at their clubs were terminated, and both have found it incredibly difficult to find a new club which will take them.


----------



## banjofred (Mar 27, 2021)

JamesR said:



			You pay to be a member for a period of time, not to use somewhere a certain amount of times.

The club hasn’t stopped you using its facilities, the government has.

As such the club should not have to refund, as you are still a member for that time period (even if you haven’t had access to the facilities)
		
Click to expand...

For me, it still comes down to the fact that I paid full price last season because I paid a little early. Those people who waited until the last second got by without paying full amount since the club/govt shut things down before the end of March. I (and a bunch of other people) didn't pay the same as I would assume was the majority of members.....I think I deserve at least a tiny bit of that money back since we were not *all in it together equally*.  They are offering this years membership at £185 off full price.....I intend to take it. I've talked to some others who are more than happy to donate their amount to the club.....I support their choice.....it's not mine though.


----------



## Green Bay Hacker (Mar 27, 2021)

Our subs were due on 1st January and that has now changed to 1st April. Anyone who continued to pay their monthly DD's during Jan - March this year will have a payment holiday in Jan - March 2022.


----------



## D-S (Mar 27, 2021)

I can see some rocky times ahead for clubs in the next couple of years, in a very uncerTain economic climate, for clubs that have given back 20-30% of their income to members. I really wouldn’t want to be going into the next couple of years with a deficit irrespective of how buoyant things are now.


----------



## SammmeBee (Mar 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			I can see some rocky times ahead for clubs in the next couple of years, in a very uncerTain economic climate, for clubs that have given back 20-30% of their income to members. I really wouldn’t want to be going into the next couple of years with a deficit irrespective of how buoyant things are now.
		
Click to expand...

Unless they’ve reduced their expenditure by 25-30%......


----------



## Kennysarmy (Mar 27, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Not in my view,  when you join a members owned facility you become a share holder and have a say on how that facility is run and financed and therefore you will have a say in the level if any of compensation. This is in no comparable to any gym or airline I know.
		
Click to expand...

How about proprietary clubs? 
Run for profit. Club and course separate entities.


----------



## IanM (Mar 27, 2021)

Yep. Proprietary clubs are indeed like gyms, or any other service business. 

They make a decision on how to proceed, their "customers" make a decision on what they think of that decision.


----------



## D-S (Mar 27, 2021)

This is really showing up the intrinsic differences between members and proprietary clubs. People need to really factor this into their club/course choice.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Mar 27, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			How about proprietary clubs?
Run for profit. Club and course separate entities.
		
Click to expand...

As I said In an earlier post I suspect the legal position would be similar to gyms, airlines etc,  whether though it would be right to take legal action to recover money from them would depend on a number of factors for me.


----------



## Sats (Mar 28, 2021)

Ours have given us until June to renew. No increase in fees either. I feel it was very fair.


----------



## Kennysarmy (Apr 1, 2021)

My last round at the Proprietary club on Tuesday. New pastures from today.
I'll leave you with a parting shot from one of the course bunkers, I'd have been embarrassed to open the course looking like this, but I guess it saved the £££'s from having the green keepers working through lockdown! I just wonder where all the subs went from 800 or so members for 3 months?


----------



## Pjwgov (Apr 1, 2021)

Unfortunately, having now heard from my club regarding renewals, I am saddened and disappointed. It’s a proprietary club and they are doing absolutely nothing for the members. In our golfing calendar we have lost 4 months of golf. The club then informs us they will be freezing the price of renewal, but what they forgot to mention was this amount was for 10 1/2 months and not the full year. I just find this slightly underhand and misleading.


----------



## banjofred (Apr 1, 2021)

Paid my fees yesterday, at the reduced rate for this next year of £185 off. Now I'm still trying to talk myself into joining another local club and a 2nd place to play regularly.....I'm being a it of a coward right now.....no reason not to though.


----------



## sunshine (Apr 6, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Golf clubs do talk to each other. It is a very small circle.

I know of two people in out area who took their respective golf clubs to court (for what ever reason). Their renewals at their clubs were terminated, and both have found it incredibly difficult to find a new club which will take them.
		
Click to expand...

I know. I had to join the witness relocation programme in order to rejoin another club. I now sit in a dark room with a digitally altered voice, all because of one careless comment to the lady captain about trimming the bushes next to the second hole.


----------



## Val (Apr 6, 2021)

No offers from my old club at all from lockdown 1 (we didn't close again), it didn't have to be money or discount but they could easily have offered a couple of 4 balls or handful of free guest tickets which cost nothing but bring revenue to the club and potential members.


----------



## Orikoru (Apr 7, 2021)

Have heard a rumour that our subs will actually be going up from what I thought they were going to be. Never mind getting compensation.


----------



## GG26 (Apr 7, 2021)

I wasn’t expecting anything in compensation, but all members as at 31 December 2020 and renewing on 1st October 2021 will get October free.  So a 1/12th reduction in next year’s subscription.


----------



## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2021)

Our subs renew in July 

They will be going up I believe 

£100 pm for 7 day to £125
£83 5 day to £100

Joining fee is now £500

However during each lockdown haven't paid a penny


----------



## richart (Apr 7, 2021)

We get free drinks, hot and cold at halfway hut.


----------

