# Is it possible for Mr Average to become a scratch golfer in just 12 months?



## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

Hello all, 

Question for you. 

Is it possible for Mr Average to become a scratch golfer in just 12 months? 
That's the challenge I'm facing after I took on a challenge from my brother and started officially on May 11th. 

If he is proved correct, Jimmy has agreed to do a sponsored round of golf for charityâ€¦.wearing only a jockstrap!
I currently play off around 20-25, putting him in the distinctly average category. But I'm a trier, have self-belief, and dedication to do it. I'm currently playing at a particularly difficult course in Kent called Westerham (well I think it's difficult). 

Anyway, thought I'd pop along here and get your thoughts. What do you guys think, is it achievable? 

For more information or to follow the challenge check out:

YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/scratchinayear


Facebook: www.facebook.com/scratchinayear


Twitter: www.twitter.com/scratchin1year 


Email: scratchinayear@gmail.com


Cheers Folks

Jimmy


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## Sid Rixon IV (May 28, 2014)

Yes, if you abandon your family and life.
Have you not read this??
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Hacke...=UTF8&qid=1401233230&sr=1-1&keywords=dream+on


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## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

woops! it's late and im tired. 
I mean play a scratch round within 1 year. I currently play off about 22.


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## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

I read it whilst on holiday, it's a good book. I've been speaking with John by email also, going to get some tips from him. 

I dont have kids or GF at moment so that's not an issue. My social life has def gone off radar since in the past two weeks too


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## Sid Rixon IV (May 28, 2014)

Yes he's very accessible.

I just don't want to be obsessed and consumed by such a target.
i want to simply experience the everyday joy and frustration of golf and, yes, improve and compete, but not at the expense of family, friends and my other interests.


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## Hack-Man-Hob (May 28, 2014)

I absolutely love this, and wish you absolutely the very best of luck, I play twice a week on average for 3 years and shot 9 over once, everything came beautifully that day except the putter

 practice putting putting putting, easy to practice, May 10th 2015, 18th green 3 footer for par..... 

If your quest ever takes you near brum drop by for a quick 18 holes!


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## Doh (May 28, 2014)

So will it be a scratch round at Westerham off the whites. I wish you all the luck in the world but I don't think you can do it in twelve months. I would of given you a chance if you were playing of a lower starting handicap maybe around 10 but 22 is a tough call.


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## DCB (May 28, 2014)

Are we talking about a bona fide CONGU handicap gained in competition conditions which will be a Scratch handicap in 12 months or is it just the ability to shoot a level par round in a game with friends.

First one, no chance 

Second one, possible but not the same as first option 

20-25 is a fairly wide starting point is it not ?


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## Birchy (May 28, 2014)

How long have you been playing golf to reach 20-25 handicap? 

If its longer than 12 months then its going to be virtually impossible to get from there to a level par round in the same timeframe or less imo.

Good luck though, I hope you do it :thup:


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## delc (May 28, 2014)

If you are naturally athletic with good hand/eye coordination and you work and practice hard, it might just be possible. However even naturally gifted players usually seem to take two or three years to get down to scratch or better. The average club golfer has a handicap of about 18, so the stats are not on your side!


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## Qwerty (May 28, 2014)

If you'd just started playing the game and were oozing natural talent I'd say yes, there's an outside chance.  
Your also going to have to learn how to plot your way around the course, the problem there is that the season usually only lasts 7 months.


Good luck with it, it'll be interesting to see how you get on. :thup:


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## Imurg (May 28, 2014)

As above there's a huge difference between shooting level par once and doing it virtually every game....
Good luck but I fear you will struggle to even get to single figures from a starting point in the 20's.
You need to shoot a long way below CSS almost every game to halve your handicap in 12 months.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2014)

I wish you well but fear you have no real chance if your doing it on official handicapping


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## Lincoln Quaker (May 28, 2014)

Good luck but I really cant see how it can be done in a year unless you are a complete natural at the game. Even with the help of a pro it still takes weeks to fine tune things. 

Then you have to rely on all parts of your game working that day. I am a guarantee that if my irons are working well my putter is stone cold and when the putter is hot the irons and woods are cold as ice.


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## Brian_C (May 28, 2014)

I wish you all the luck and really hope you achieve it, I really do. 

Here's some advise:
1 - Get some Lessons now, don't wait for a couple of months, book them now.
2 - Get lessons weekly or fortnightly initially and tell the Pro what you're trying to do. 
3 - Practice putting, putting and then practice putting. 
4 - Practice shots around the green from 100yds and in.


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## Ethan (May 28, 2014)

ScratchInAYear said:



Hello all, 

Question for you. 

Is it possible for Mr Average to become a scratch golfer in just 12 months? 
That's the challenge I'm facing after I took on a challenge from my brother and started officially on May 11th. 

If he is proved correct, Jimmy has agreed to do a sponsored round of golf for charityâ€¦.wearing only a jockstrap!
I currently play off around 20-25, putting him in the distinctly average category. But I'm a trier, have self-belief, and dedication to do it. I'm currently playing at a particularly difficult course in Kent called Westerham (well I think it's difficult). 

Anyway, thought I'd pop along here and get your thoughts. What do you guys think, is it achievable? 

For more information or to follow the challenge check out:

YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/scratchinayear


Facebook: www.facebook.com/scratchinayear


Twitter: www.twitter.com/scratchin1year 


Email: scratchinayear@gmail.com


Cheers Folks

Jimmy
		
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No.

It is possible for Mr Exceptional But Undeveloped Talent to do so, but not Mr Average. 

It is always possible for a duffer to have a fluke round where the ball bounces in to the hole off OB markers and thins hit the fly, but the probability is rather low.


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## patricks148 (May 28, 2014)

Guys  comes on with similar challenges from time to time and I canâ€™t remember any in the last 6 years any coming back and saying the achieved this target. Itâ€™s possible of course, with lots of hard work and time plus some element of natural ability.

If itâ€™s an official handicap of scratch, sorry no chance.

It might be possible to shoot a level par score, the same as chances of winning the Euro Millionsâ€¦ a lot of luck


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2014)

Think the OP is just trying to shoot a round in par as opposed to gain a scratch handicap 

So yes you can go from shooting in the 90's to 100's to shooting a round in par - the guy in the book has already done it 

But it takes a lot of hard work and time - so it's not easy.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 28, 2014)

Loads of these challenges pop up from time to time and I can't think anyone aside from John Richardson (Dream On) that has actually managed it. Most come on here full of enthusiasm and then fall by the wayside as the enormity of the challenge becomes apparent. If you are talking about scratch as a handicap figure then you have no chance. If you are talking about playing a one off game and shooting level par, then it's possible but again even with the best will, off your current level its going to take an incredible amount of work and luck. 

Cost of lessons and range balls won't be cheap either. I hope you succeed but unfortunately I remain scepticle that you'll get there. I hope you can prove me wrong


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## Stuey01 (May 28, 2014)

ScratchInAYear said:



woops! it's late and im tired. 
I mean play a scratch round within 1 year. I currently play off about 22. 

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Quoted for the hard of reading.


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## Imurg (May 28, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think the OP is just trying to shoot a round in par as opposed to gain a scratch handicap
		
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The clue is in the title - "Scratch Golfer" - as you well know, Scratch and shooting level par are a world away from each other.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2014)

Imurg said:



			The clue is in the title - "Scratch Golfer" - as you well know, Scratch and shooting level par are a world away from each other.
		
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The OP corrected himself two posts later with what he actually wants to do - play a round in par


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## User20205 (May 28, 2014)

it's a big ask, but not impossible. (a level par round, not a scratch handicap) 

there are probably easier courses than Westerham to do it on also  It has a load of trees from memory. If you find any z stars with 3 green dots down the left of the 5th, they're mine

Good luck fella. There have been a few of these posted before and my advice would be; 

take your glove off when you're putting 
lose the denim cut off shorts 
and don't read homers blog for inspiration


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## guest100718 (May 28, 2014)

Yes as someone has already done it.


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## evahakool (May 28, 2014)

For Mr Average not impossible but highly unlikely.

Think your brothers safe with his bet, just as well as playing with just a jockstrap would not be a good look

Good luck with it anyway.


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## Imurg (May 28, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The OP corrected himself two posts later with what he actually wants to do - play a round in par
		
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Ha..missed that one!


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## Khamelion (May 28, 2014)

As the forum knows well, I'm trying to get from my starting 17.1 HC to single figures, and through practice, lots of it my swing has improved and my long game has come on leaps and bounds, but I've neglected my short game to the point where its practically none existent.

To reach my goal I do not need to shoot a level par round, I just need to shoot mid to high 70's.

I worked out a spread sheet for my own benefit to work out what I needed to shoot to get to single figures, using the same, I assumed the following:-


Your course CSS is 72
That every 4 weeks you improved your score by 2 strokes
That you only play on weekend comp days (Sat or Sun) for HC purposes
That you best score thus far is 90, which I used as a starting score
That you course stops comps for HC purposes in mid December and doesn't start them again until mid April


If you managed to stick to the above and every 4 weeks reduce you round by two strokes, then by 14 December you would be down to a 6 playing HC shooting rounds of 76, then with plenty practice over the winter, your first round of the new season on 12th April would be a 74, then 4 weeks later on 10th May, one day ahead of your goal, you would shoot a 72, or level par for your course and be playing off 4.

Good luck, as that is going to take a shed load of dedication, determination and positive thinking to reach your goal. Pretty much every hour you have spare when your not working , eating or sleeping is going to be spent practicing.


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## pokerjoke (May 28, 2014)

I believe its possible to shoot level par.
However I think you will have to get to a single figure handicap to achieve it.
Good luck.


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## Snelly (May 28, 2014)

Yes it is possible to shoot a level par round after a year of hard work and a generous slice of luck.  Unlikely, but definitely possible.  

Getting a handicap of scratch in a year (and yes, I appreciate that is not what is being asked) is virtually impossible.


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## garyinderry (May 28, 2014)

long hours spent trying to fast forward the golfing journey.  I never understand these challenges after someone has already done it. 

learn how to pound the driver long and straight.  makes the game so much easier if you are taking your 2nd shot closer to the green.  nail the short game.


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## Hunka Turf (May 28, 2014)

Would be a great achievement. Good luck!


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## 6inchcup (May 28, 2014)

how many times do we see posts like this,most have a book or dvd to flog and we all know us golfers are the most easy led lot,if someone brought out a cream that you rubbed on your balls(steady) and put them in the fridge overnight to gain 50yds of the tee it would sell in its thousands,it you think a 24h/c golfer can get to scratch (congu)in twelve months its just wishful thinking.


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## garyinderry (May 28, 2014)

that is not a bad swing you have there! :thup:


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## patricks148 (May 28, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			that is not a bad swing you have there! :thup:
		
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The same can not be said for the haircut


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## jp5 (May 28, 2014)

Not a chance, would put my mortgage on it.

But I wish you good luck :thup:


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## Stuey01 (May 28, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			it you think a 24h/c golfer can get to scratch (congu)in twelve months its just wishful thinking.
		
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It is fortunate, then, that he is not trying to do that.


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## Jimbooo (May 28, 2014)

With that swing as a starting point, I think you'll do it.  Good luck!


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## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

Thank you sir, your words are much appreciated. 

Would love to get a round in in B-Town. I'm London based so don't have plans to get up that way at the moment but if i do pass through will be sure to drop you a line on here. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4H7V9thiz4&list=HL1400846378&feature=mh_lolz

You can follow my progress on YouTube! will be putting in MANY MANY hours of putting practise as advised by so many people. 





Hack-Man-Hob said:



			I absolutely love this, and wish you absolutely the very best of luck, I play twice a week on average for 3 years and shot 9 over once, everything came beautifully that day except the putter

 practice putting putting putting, easy to practice, May 10th 2015, 18th green 3 footer for par..... 

If your quest ever takes you near brum drop by for a quick 18 holes!
		
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## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

ha ha! you are right, it could do with a trim. detrimental on a windy day too.


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## londonlewis (May 28, 2014)

Yes you can do it. 1st step is believing you can do it. 

Westerham is a good course and I know it well as I have played it many times. 
Course management will play a big part and Westerham gives you plenty of opportunity to play safe as well as try the high tariff shots - which will give you plenty of opportunity to work out which holes you can play aggressively and which you should play safe. 

Without being an expert of shooting 20-25 under your handicap, I would definitely recommend spending a lot of time learning to putt, chip, pitch and play out of bunkers - otherwise you will have to rely on an exceptional long game. 

Good luck and let us know if you do it. 

"a bad attitude is worse than a bad swing" - Payne Stewart


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## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

Thanks for the advice Lewis, much appreciated. Westerham is a lovely course, I've been playing there quite a lot of late. if you ever fancy a round then let me know. Would be good to go round with some more exprienced players.


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## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

Hello golfers

Thanks to you all very much for your advice, tips, support etc etc

Just to reiterate as I dont think i was very clear at the beginning of the thread, I'm trying to play a scratch round. However I will also play 3 rounds at the end of the challenge to get an official handicap. Then people can really see how my handicap has improved in 12 months. 

At the minute my coach, James Ellis-Caird, recommended I play off 22, which as it happens is what I scored at Westerham on Sunday 25th May, so a good starting point. 

In case anyone missed it, you can see the first round with my brother on the 18th May, where I scored 25, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBa5L77mxoM

I am also now well aware that this challenge has been done before, and written about in Dream On (I have also read it and recommmend it). When the challenge was conjured up at XMAS by my brother I'd been playing golf for 3 months (apart from playing for about a year as a junior) and had no never heard of Dream On or John Richardson, or The Dan Plan etc.

However the fact it has been done before doesn't put me off, has only 1 person ever climbed Everist?? (not that I'm comparing this challenge to climbing Everist). I merely just want to play good golf and prove that if you put your mind to something, and dedicate time you can achieve, for personal gain but also to perhaps inspire others. And this is a challenge that will hopefully allow me to do this. 

Thanks again for the support! keep them tips coming, each one is carefully noted. 

jimmy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4H7V9thiz4&list=HL1400846378&feature=mh_lolz


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## williamalex1 (May 28, 2014)

Ask Virtuocity , after a year of practicing very hard and lessons, also getting advice for top guys on this forum. He managed to go from a 26 to a 13 h/c within a year. Not sure what his lowest scratch score is though ?????, he'll be along shortly to let us know.

best of luck.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			If you'd just started playing the game and were oozing natural talent I'd say yes, there's an outside chance.  
Your also going to have to learn how to plot your way around the course, the problem there is that the season usually only lasts 7 months.


Good luck with it, it'll be interesting to see how you get on. :thup:
		
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This is a limiting way of thinking I feel in that if you believe you have no natural talent it will end up a self-fulfilling prophecy. 'Natural talent' is generally created through hard work and quality practise.


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## Rooter (May 28, 2014)

not read it in full, but do you have a full time job? what is your regime looking like? how many hours of practice per week and how many rounds?

I am gonna kick it off with a no chance, but wish you all the best,


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## ScratchInAYear (May 28, 2014)

I'm documenting hours here. See link below.

38.5 in 16 days so far. That's including rounds though. Got a 9-5 mon - fri too to fit it all in around too. 3 rounds last weekend (bank holiday). 

https://docs.google.com/a/brokenhz....emys8WR3BGWV-MMr4PsWlhUHA3-MWFU6Fs/edit#gid=0


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## GeneralStore (May 28, 2014)

Its possible. Things that will make it more likely:
1) Taking regular lessons
2) Playing alot with people who have shot a par round before 
3) Structured quality practise, get your pro to workout your practise routine

Things that will make it less likely:
1) Spending too much time blogging or posting on forums instead of playing or practising
2) Turning to equipment to solve all your issues
3) Negativity from people who don't think you can do it, either use it to motivate you or ignore it

Best of luck, its good to push yourself. Reach for the moon and you might touch the stars.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2014)

shirt out
denim shorts
no socks

tut!

Kidding ...

But best to get used to missing putts of under 6ft and learn to contain emotions 

Otherwise - a good place to start and good free swing and follow-through ... have fun and good luck!


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## MadAdey (May 28, 2014)

So let me get his right, you are currently shooting in the mid 90's and want to shoot level par, or are you talking about shooting SSS. Difference being is that level par might be 72 somewhere but the SSS might be 69 as it is an easy course. Either way it is going to take some effort.

I would say you are going to need a good coach to start with. Then have 3 1 hour lessons a week, in each lesson covering long game, irons, short game and putting. Then you will probably need to hit a 1000 balls down the range every week along with going on a short game practice area. So lessons alone are going to set you back best part of Â£150 a week, just hope you have somewhere to practice or the driving range will cost you another Â£50 a week on top. 

The level of improvement you are looking for is going to take a lot of money, time and commitment. If you had set target like getting down to single figures in a year I think that would have been more achievable as you would not have to master every aspect of the game. Shooting level means you can't afford to cock it up anywhere on the course, if you loose a ball you will need 2 birdies just to make up for it.

But good luck and I hope you do it, anyone putting that much effort in deserves some good luck in return.


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## Qwerty (May 28, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			This is a limiting way of thinking I feel in that if you believe you have no natural talent it will end up a self-fulfilling prophecy. 'Natural talent' is generally created through hard work and quality practise.
		
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Sorry but I disagree. Natural talent is exactly what it says on the tin, Natural.You've either got it or you haven't. Others may call it "very good hand eye coordination "  

 I'll Agree that Johnny Average could probably get down to Cat1 over a number of years with plenty of practice and Determination. But there's also a Small number of Golfers out there that find this game quite easy, They can just go out and play & don't need to practice much & still maintain a H'cap of low single figures or less. 

Im sure most of us know one or Two of these annoying people 
  I'm not sure if Theres any who post on here though 

In my opinion, if the OP is going to pull this off he needs an amount of natural talent for the game, and also to learn his strengths and weaknesses out on the course very quickly.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Sorry but I disagree. Natural talent is exactly what it says on the tin, Natural.You've either got it or you haven't. Others may call it "very good hand eye coordination "  

 I'll Agree that Johnny Average could probably get down to Cat1 over a number of years with plenty of practice and Determination. But there's also a Small number of Golfers out there that find this game quite easy, They can just go out and play & don't need to practice much & still maintain a H'cap of low single figures or less. 

Im sure most of us know one or Two of these annoying people 
  I'm not sure if Theres any who post on here though 

In my opinion, if the OP is going to pull this off he needs an amount of natural talent for the game, and also to learn his strengths and weaknesses out on the course very quickly.
		
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Golf is not a hand eye coordination sport, otherwise how would blind golfers get on?

Those low single figure players you refer to will have paid there dues at some point and now make it _look_ easy. No one gets good at anything without a heck of a lot of repetitions. But when you look at these good players you're not seeing the _process_ they went through - just an end product.  

I'm sure I heard a story about Snead being asked about natural talent and he sneered at the comment and asked the questioner to come to the range and watch him practise until his hands were bleeding.


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## Hickory_Hacker (May 28, 2014)

ScratchInAYear said:



Hello all, 

Question for you. 

Is it possible for Mr Average to become a scratch golfer in just 12 months? 
That's the challenge I'm facing after I took on a challenge from my brother and started officially on May 11th. 

If he is proved correct, Jimmy has agreed to do a sponsored round of golf for charityâ€¦.wearing only a jockstrap!
I currently play off around 20-25, putting him in the distinctly average category. But I'm a trier, have self-belief, and dedication to do it. I'm currently playing at a particularly difficult course in Kent called Westerham (well I think it's difficult). 

Anyway, thought I'd pop along here and get your thoughts. What do you guys think, is it achievable? 

For more information or to follow the challenge check out:

YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/scratchinayear


Facebook: www.facebook.com/scratchinayear


Twitter: www.twitter.com/scratchin1year 


Email: scratchinayear@gmail.com


Cheers Folks

Jimmy
		
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It's possible but is it likely, No.

Things are achievable but again, No.


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## Macster (May 28, 2014)

2 Hopes......

Bob Hope.......

& No Hope.


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## Qwerty (May 28, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Golf is not a hand eye coordination sport, otherwise how would blind golfers get on?

Those low single figure players you refer to will have paid there dues at some point and now make it _look_ easy. No one gets good at anything without a heck of a lot of repetitions. But when you look at these good players you're not seeing the _process_ they went through - just an end product.  

I'm sure I heard a story about Snead being asked about natural talent and he sneered at the comment and asked the questioner to come to the range and watch him practise until his hands were bleeding.
		
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Would you agree that Natural Talent had a bearing on Greg Norman Getting to Scratch within 2 years after starting the game as a 16 year old?


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## Khamelion (May 28, 2014)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			It's possible but is it likely, No.

Things are achievable but again, No.
		
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My best advice, have a lesson to have a pro evaluate you swing, if it is fundamentally solid, then do not tinker with it and just get out there and practice practice practice . Don't just blindly hit balls at the range, make sure your practice is structured, that it has a goal. Say from 30yds get 3 balls out of 10 within 6 feet of the flag, do that 10 times, then make it 5 out of 10, then 7.

It doesn't matter if you swing looks like an Orang-Utang trying to play guitar while flying a kite on a skateboard as long as you balls land on the short stuff and you can get up and down that's all that matters. Finesse and fine tuning can come later.

Ignore the nay sayers, the doubters, the people that will tell you it is impossible, those that jump at every chance to tell say you will fail, they only want to be able to say 'I told you so', prove them wrong.

We all have bad days ether when playing or practicing, those days where no matter what you do everything seems to be conspiring against you, those are the days when you need to change it up, so your drives are all going wrong, use a 3 metal or a 5 iron, go to you favourite club to get you back on track.

Play the percentages, don't go for the glory shot through the trees, just take you medicine and play out onto the fairway.

Club up, if your yardage is 110yds to the pin and you best hit with you pitching wedge is 110yds, hit a 9 instead, getting on the green in regulation will give you a lift.

oh and practice practice practice.


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## Simbo (May 28, 2014)

So you don't actually have an official handicap just now???
Are you going to be looking for level par from the yellow tees playing with your mates or under competition circumstances??

I'm afraid I'm going to vote no for this is it's under competition standards, if just in a bounce game then I think you might do it.

Key factors for me would be you! Almost half the season is gone already, I see your full if enthusiasm just now, but how much enthusiasm will be there in January when you have to force yourself outside in the wind/rain/frost playing on winter greens etc.
Level par golf is a huge achievement, and IMO  a bridge to far, you need good mental strength, being able to hold it together if you get to level par with 3 holes to go,  the ability to cope with set backs,injuries, bad weather and just general being fed up of golf.
In this instance I'd generally be more inclined to get you to play non stop, and not practice as much as others seem to think,learn how to get the ball in the hole. Sure you will need to practice but I'd definitley be hitting the course far more often than the range.


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## guest100718 (May 28, 2014)

It's odd that so many say it can't be done when it already has, in fact Richardson shot under par.


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## Birchy (May 28, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			It's odd that so many say it can't be done when it already has, in fact Richardson shot under par.
		
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I think most of them were replying in reference to the "Scratch golfer" aim that he opened the thread with.


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## Macster (May 28, 2014)

Oh its 'Possible'.

So is me, at aged 52, getting a sudden call up for Englands Internationals against the All Blacks........

Its about the same odds I'd say.

In 25yrs of playing Golf to a reasonably good Club Level, I've ever only once shot a level Par 16 holes, and that was when I wasnt trying to.......just messin about.

Good luck and all that, and I hate to be so negative, but I'm a realist !


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Would you agree that Natural Talent had a bearing on Greg Norman Getting to Scratch within 2 years after starting the game as a 16 year old?
		
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I'd imagine his naturally athletic physique certainly helped but there's no evidence for people being born with the motor patterns required to make golf swings! It's learned ability. 

I have no idea about the conditions of Greg Norman's life when he was young. Maybe he played other sports all through his youth and developed a good ability to hit objects with an implement that he could transfer to golf. And then perhaps had access to the best coaching and learning environments to improve his play. 

You can't compare his 2 years with someone else and claim it as like for like and say the only reason one got to scratch and the other didn't is natural talent. There are incalculable other variables involved - access to coaching, parental influence and support, motivational factors etc etc. 

Look at the women's game. Has a golf gene spread across South Korea in the couple of decades? No, of course not, what happened actually was Se Ri Pak winning the US Open was a motivational trigger to the youth living in the country to pick up the game and try it for themselves.


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## MadAdey (May 28, 2014)

Simbo said:



			Level par golf is a huge achievement, and IMO  a bridge to far, you need good mental strength, being able to hold it together if you get to level par with 3 holes to go,  the ability to cope with set backs,injuries, bad weather and just general being fed up of golf.
In this instance I'd generally be more inclined to get you to play non stop, and not practice as much as others seem to think,learn how to get the ball in the hole. Sure you will need to practice but I'd definitley be hitting the course far more often than the range.
		
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IMO you need to do totally the opposite. You are new to golf and all playing will end up doing is getting you to ingrain bad habits into your game. Work hard on the practice ground and get all the fundamentals correct or you might just regret it.

There are no negatives to what you are trying at all as long as you get some good coaching and practice along the way. Chances are if you do have any ability for this game you will probably end up as a single figure handicapper anyway.


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## londonlewis (May 28, 2014)

Macster said:



			Oh its 'Possible'.

So is me, at aged 52, getting a sudden call up for Englands Internationals against the All Blacks........

...but I'm a realist !
		
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Actually these things are not the same odds. 

As we can see, the golf objective has been achieved before! 

No one, at aged 52, has ever been called up to represent his country against the all-blacks. Not a former player, let alone someone that would be awarded their first cap.


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## londonlewis (May 28, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Golf is not a hand eye coordination sport, otherwise how would blind golfers get on?
		
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Correct. 
Golf is not a hand eye coordination sport as the ball is not moving before you hit it. 
Golf is more of a 'muscle memory' sport.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

I'd urge anyone who thinks you need 'natural talent' to succeed at golf to watch The Short Game on Netflix. These 8 and 9 year olds are getting up at 6am to work on fitness and staying out practising even in the rain for hours every day. In 20 years time, after doing this process every day under the guise of elite coaching, one of them might win a professional tournament and someone in the crowd will marvel about how 'naturally talented' they are. Meanwhile those that know what they went through will realise how utterly meaningless that is.


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## Crawley1981 (May 28, 2014)

If i had of seen this thread a year ago then i would of thought it would be very unlikely, however my link below proves it is possible as i managed it:

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?65565-Freak-Round

If you fancy a round during the week on Woldingham, Westerham or Surrey National then i would be up for it.


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## MadAdey (May 28, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I'd urge anyone who thinks you need 'natural talent' to succeed at golf to watch The Short Game on Netflix. These 8 and 9 year olds are getting up at 6am to work on fitness and staying out practising even in the rain for hours every day. In 20 years time, after doing this process every day under the guise of elite coaching, one of them might win a professional tournament and someone in the crowd will marvel about how 'naturally talented' they are. Meanwhile those that know what they went through will realise how utterly meaningless that is.
		
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I think that we are getting back to the old argument of natural ability. I have seen 'The Short Game' on Netflix. You do need both, it is as simple as that. Those kids work very hard, but if that all it takes then I am putting all my money into a top coach and practicing so I can go on the PGA Tour in a couple of years. You do need to work and practice hard, but if you ain't got it, then you haven't got a chance.


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## CMAC (May 28, 2014)

I did it many years ago, 18 to 5 h/cap in a season culminating in a 3 under par 67 in a medal which I won with a nett 62 by 1 shot. (nice big trophy too)

so yes it's possible, but here's the factors that helped me.

1) I was young and athletic
2) I had no responsibilities so played golf pretty much most days with friends and we tried every shot in the book.
3) Long hot summer.
4) I practiced every day, even when it rained.
5) when something didnt work I did trial and error until it did.
6) Putting held no fear, if I was on a green I expected to hole it (why not)

I felt good enough to get to scratch (no chance in one season), got to 2.7 the next season........

then women, gigs, alcohol, smoking, women, music, work etc took over and golf was out of my life for about 10 years. Had some flashes since getting back but you gotta do it while you are young and fearless.

Good luck! You can achieve anything if you set your mind to it.


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## scottbrown (May 28, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Sorry but I disagree. Natural talent is exactly what it says on the tin, Natural.You've either got it or you haven't. Others may call it "very good hand eye coordination "  

 I'll Agree that Johnny Average could probably get down to Cat1 over a number of years with plenty of practice and Determination. But there's also a Small number of Golfers out there that find this game quite easy, They can just go out and play & don't need to practice much & still maintain a H'cap of low single figures or less. 

Im sure most of us know one or Two of these annoying people 
  I'm not sure if Theres any who post on here though 

In my opinion, if the OP is going to pull this off he needs an amount of natural talent for the game, and also to learn his strengths and weaknesses out on the course very quickly.
		
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That sounds like me. 
Don't do lessons, don't do practice and generally don't care what I shoot. Just rock up, whack it round and see what the total is and it's not too often it's over 80 on a par 72 SSS 72 course.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I think that we are getting back to the old argument of natural ability. I have seen 'The Short Game' on Netflix. You do need both, it is as simple as that. Those kids work very hard, but if that all it takes then I am putting all my money into a top coach and practicing so I can go on the PGA Tour in a couple of years. You do need to work and practice hard, but if you ain't got it, then you haven't got a chance.
		
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I'm sorry but this concept of needing to have "it" in order to achieve excellence is an old fashioned way of thinking and based on pre-conceived and ill-informed notions.  

I could summarise many literature on this topic but take this academic piece for example which probably puts it better than I could:

http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/shanks_expertise.html


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## garyinderry (May 28, 2014)

if all it took was practice, lower league teams would just train twice as long and twice as hard.  


hard work will get you far. very far in fact.  to get to the very top requires that little something extra.


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## Qwerty (May 28, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I'm sorry but this concept of needing to have "it" in order to achieve excellence is an old fashioned way of thinking and based on pre-conceived and ill-informed notions.  

I could summarise many literature on this topic but take this academic piece for example which probably puts it better than I could:

http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/shanks_expertise.html

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How would you explain the thousands of Golfers that are beating balls on the range every night and throwing lots of Â£Â£Â£ at lessons over a number of years and still struggling to achieve single figures.

Ive read the article and it makes interesting reading and tbh I wish it was 100% correct. If it was I'd be back on the range beating balls as Ive done in the past. But I'm sure there are tens of thousands of talented people throughout the world who's story would contradict the above.
Greg Norman being one of them.


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## MadAdey (May 28, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I'm sorry but this concept of needing to have "it" in order to achieve excellence is an old fashioned way of thinking and based on pre-conceived and ill-informed notions.  

I could summarise many literature on this topic but take this academic piece for example which probably puts it better than I could:

http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/shanks_expertise.html

Click to expand...

I have just read that piece and like all these type of things it is how you want to read it and how the person writing it wants you to read it. You can't argue with what someone has wrote on this subject as it is their opinion and findings on a subject. But it is not an exact science that they are using. I do not think their is an exact science you can use to measure this with regards to golf.

The only way I could think of is if you say took triplets and gave them all exactly the same coaching and nurturing and see what standard they get to. If you did this from when they could stand and they all committed to it until they where 18 then going on the theory that natural ability plays no part then they should all be exactly the same standard. So if one of them is a tour pro then so should the other 2. If one of them is a cat 1 golfer then so should the other 2.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I have just read that piece and like all these type of things it is how you want to read it and how the person writing it wants you to read it. You can't argue with what someone has wrote on this subject as it is their opinion and findings on a subject. But it is not an exact science that they are using. I do not think their is an exact science you can use to measure this with regards to golf.

The only way I could think of is if you say took triplets and gave them all exactly the same coaching and nurturing and see what standard they get to. If you did this from when they could stand and they all committed to it until they where 18 then going on the theory that natural ability plays no part then they should all be exactly the same standard. So if one of them is a tour pro then so should the other 2. If one of them is a cat 1 golfer then so should the other 2.
		
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This has kind of already been done... but in Chess. See Polgar chess sisters.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			How would you explain the thousands of Golfers that are beating balls on the range every night and throwing lots of Â£Â£Â£ at lessons over a number of years and still struggling to achieve single figures.

Ive read the article and it makes interesting reading and tbh I wish it was 100% correct. If it was I'd be back on the range beating balls as Ive done in the past. But I'm sure there are tens of thousands of talented people throughout the world who's story would contradict the above.
Greg Norman being one of them.
		
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There's some really fascinating books out on this that would give answers to this that would do far more justice to the topic than I could in a forum post, try:

Bounce, Matthew Syed
Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell
The Talent Code, Daniel Coyle
Talent is Overrated, Geoff Colvin 


But, I mean, in summary the problem is they are just 'beating balls'. They say to master a field you need 10,000 hours of _deliberate practise_. I'd hazard many amateurs have scarcely achieved _1 hour_ of quality, deliberate practise!


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## mchacker (May 28, 2014)

Interest in learning
plus
Hunger to improve
plus
Money for equipment and lessons
plus
Education from someone who can make you understand what you need to know
plus
Intelligence to apply what you learn effectively
plus
Access to facilities to refine what you learn
plus
Honesty to admit when you haven't been working hard enough
plus
Encouragement from those closest to you
plus
Attitude to stick with it when someone says you shouldn't
plus
Fitness to stay away from injury
plus
Concentration to make the longer sessions purposeful
plus
Determination to get out and train in the worst of weather when the couch is calling
Plus
Mental freedom to let the bad moments go
plus
Creativity to experiment to get the best out of your skills

If you can look at yourself honestly and see all of those qualifications then very best of luck to you, you have a chance(no matter how slight) to achieve your goal. Any doubts whatsoever, pay your bet now and save the stress.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			if all it took was practice, lower league teams would just train twice as long and twice as hard.  


hard work will get you far. very far in fact.  to get to the very top requires that little something extra.
		
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It's not just about training longer and harder though is it. Do you think that's all they do at La Masia in Barcelona? Or just maybe do the employ _better_ training methods.


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## garyinderry (May 28, 2014)

golf is a multi faceted game. the three main parts being mental, skill and strategy. 


you can beat balls all you like. you can become very good at ball striking from a mat. learning how to hack it out of a very ropey lie surrounded by grass that graps you club like a tormented soul from hell takes experience. knowing when not to hack at it comes later. all this will not come over night. 


getting the three components of strategy, skill and mental strength just right in one year to shoot level par will take some doing! 

you can try and over power a course by learning to nail the driver long and straight then short iron your way to pars.  if I was to attempt this I would only ever play the same course over and over. I would devise a plan for each hole. work out exactly where I DO NOT want to be and try to avoid these places non stop.  

work out what clubs to use on par 3s with various wind directions and strengths.  then practice them like hell. 

after I got to a stage where I could start putting a run of pars together I would start at the first and every time I made a double bogey I would go back to the first tee. this would get me used to having a good run going and feeling a little pressure. 

that's all I can think of for now!


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## Birchy (May 28, 2014)

Natural ability will see you improve much quicker than somebody who doesnt have it. Some people are just not sporty and some people just dont learn well. It doesnt mean being top at their sport is impossible but it will make it much more difficult.

Just look at handicap golfers. You could see two people start on 25 handicap and play the same amount of golf and practice. One could be down at 12 at the end of the season and the other could be 23. What do you think has helped make that extra difference? 

Getting to the top is very similar but on a much bigger scale. Theres not enough time in a lifetime for a lot of people to reach the top or everybody would do it.


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## Andr3w (May 28, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Natural ability will see you improve much quicker than somebody who doesnt have it. Some people are just not sporty and some people just dont learn well. It doesnt mean being top at their sport is impossible but it will make it much more difficult.

Just look at handicap golfers. You could see two people start on 25 handicap and play the same amount of golf and practice. One could be down at 12 at the end of the season and the other could be 23. What do you think has helped make that extra difference? 

Getting to the top is very similar but on a much bigger scale. Theres not enough time in a lifetime for a lot of people to reach the top or everybody would do it.
		
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Your handicapper golf argument is just far too simplistic. There's so many variables that go into making us who we are and what we're capable of and many of these just won't be obvious on the surface to the onlooker. 

Perhaps the one that improved more quickly played rounders every night when they were a kid and developed the motion which is just a golf swing on a single horizontal plane. Meanwhile the other guy stayed in playing video games every night. These facts won't be obvious though and people will just say _'talent'_ which for me is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.


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## guest100718 (May 28, 2014)

http://novice2scratch.com/
http://parfromafar.com/

those are 2 blogs of golfers who gave up everything for a year to try and get to scratch, they both saw it through to the end and didnt get close. The web is littered with plenty of others who gave up after a month or so.



A par round is very possible though.


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## TheClaw (May 28, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I'm sorry but this concept of needing to have "it" in order to achieve excellence is an old fashioned way of thinking and based on pre-conceived and ill-informed notions.  

I could summarise many literature on this topic but take this academic piece for example which probably puts it better than I could:

http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/shanks_expertise.html

Click to expand...

With an author named DR Shanks I don't think we should take any notice.


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## Simbo (May 29, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			IMO you need to do totally the opposite. You are new to golf and all playing will end up doing is getting you to ingrain bad habits into your game. Work hard on the practice ground and get all the fundamentals correct or you might just regret it.

There are no negatives to what you are trying at all as long as you get some good coaching and practice along the way. Chances are if you do have any ability for this game you will probably end up as a single figure handicapper anyway.
		
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For the long term I agree, I see where you're coming from but ingraining a good swing, developing good course strategy and having good mental strength takes time, something he doesn't have a lot of, and I don't think a year is long enough to ingrain these traits. Playing over and over and over again will teach you how to get the ball in the hole more than the range will. Doesn't matter if you play with a big hook or a daisy cutting slice as long as you can get it to repeat. 
Tbh I think a challenge like this for a beginner could totally ruin the game for them.


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## Rooter (May 29, 2014)

one thing i didnt ask, are you married (partner, whatever) do you have any kids?

The above will be a huge factor, your mrs may be behind your idea now, wait till she hasnt seen you all week due to work and practice, and then you go for 36 holes on a saturday...


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## CMAC (May 29, 2014)

Rooter said:



*one thing i didnt ask, are you married (partner, whatever) do you have any kids?*

The above will be a huge factor, your mrs may be behind your idea now, wait till she hasnt seen you all week due to work and practice, and then you go for 36 holes on a saturday...
		
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post number #4

do pay attention young Rooter or you'll have to see master after prep


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## Jimbooo (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Your handicapper golf argument is just far too simplistic. There's so many variables that go into making us who we are and what we're capable of and many of these just won't be obvious on the surface to the onlooker. 

Perhaps the one that improved more quickly played rounders every night when they were a kid and developed the motion which is just a golf swing on a single horizontal plane. Meanwhile the other guy stayed in playing video games every night. These facts won't be obvious though and people will just say _'talent'_ which for me is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.
		
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So genetics doesn't have anything to do with it?  Are we all born equal and its only external influences that decide how good we are at something?


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## Rooter (May 29, 2014)

CMAC said:



			post number #4

do pay attention young Rooter or you'll have to see master after prep 

Click to expand...

Apologies sir. will write 100 lines.

Well i will throw a curve ball then, this will all go tits up (literally) when a burd gets involved...


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## Birchy (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Your handicapper golf argument is just far too simplistic. There's so many variables that go into making us who we are and what we're capable of and many of these just won't be obvious on the surface to the onlooker. 

Perhaps the one that improved more quickly played rounders every night when they were a kid and developed the motion which is just a golf swing on a single horizontal plane. Meanwhile the other guy stayed in playing video games every night. These facts won't be obvious though and people will just say _'talent'_ which for me is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.
		
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So you think everybody has an equal chance of being a scratch golfer for example? 

Some people are just better than others at things full stop and you pretty deluded to think otherwise imo. 

I know people who have sort of grown up playing sport together and done pretty similar hobbies all through their lives. One example is a lad I know playing off 2 and his mate is off 19. They both lived on the same street and played for the same football team and did the same hobbies for donkeys years. Now they play golf together and there is quite a gap in their ability.

Unless the guy off 2 has been practicing in his sleep that points to him having more natural ability than the other guy imo. There isn't really much else it can be imo.

Theres plenty other examples of people with very similar backgrounds having very different skill levels.


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## MadAdey (May 29, 2014)

Simbo said:



			For the long term I agree, I see where you're coming from but ingraining a good swing, developing good course strategy and having good mental strength takes time, something he doesn't have a lot of, and I don't think a year is long enough to ingrain these traits. Playing over and over and over again will teach you how to get the ball in the hole more than the range will. Doesn't matter if you play with a big hook or a daisy cutting slice as long as you can get it to repeat. 
Tbh I think a challenge like this for a beginner could totally ruin the game for them.
		
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IT is like I said in that post: 
_
There are no negatives to what you are trying at all as long as you get some good coaching and practice along the way. Chances are if you do have any ability for this game you will probably end up as a single figure handicapper anyway.

_If he does it properly and learns all the fundamentals of the game it is not going to hurt him. But just learning to get it round will ruin his game in the long run. If one of the more established golfers on the forum like myself or many others I can think of started on this journey for the next year then I think we could more or less end up as a scratch golfer, as all most of us need to do is tidy our games up and get some good coaching and practicing in. 
_

_


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

Birchy said:



			So you think everybody has an equal chance of being a scratch golfer for example? 

Some people are just better than others at things full stop and you pretty deluded to think otherwise imo. 

I know people who have sort of grown up playing sport together and done pretty similar hobbies all through their lives. One example is a lad I know playing off 2 and his mate is off 19. They both lived on the same street and played for the same football team and did the same hobbies for donkeys years. Now they play golf together and there is quite a gap in their ability.

Unless the guy off 2 has been practicing in his sleep that points to him having more natural ability than the other guy imo. There isn't really much else it can be imo.

Theres plenty other examples of people with very similar backgrounds having very different skill levels.
		
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Unfortunately, these anecdotes are completely worthless unless all facts are put on the table. This is a question that requires rigorous research and scientific enquiry. Not just "2 blokes I know..."

Genetics certainly comes into it. A look at the physiques of golfers on tour suggest being tall and lithe is advantageous to being short and fat. But as for people coming out the womb with brains that are better able to adopt the neural pathways required to make golf swing motions - there is no evidence for this and the studies are showing that.


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## Birchy (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Unfortunately, these anecdotes are completely worthless unless all facts are put on the table. This is a question that requires rigorous research and scientific enquiry. Not just "2 blokes I know..."

Genetics certainly comes into it. A look at the physiques of golfers on tour suggest being tall and lithe is advantageous to being short and fat. But as for people coming out the womb with brains that are better able to adopt the neural pathways required to make golf swing motions - there is no evidence for this and the studies are showing that.
		
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So you only believe things that are researched and scientifically proven? That must be a right laugh.


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## MadAdey (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w, as much as I respect other peoples opinions and everyone has a right to express them I just think all of this "if you want it bad enough you will get it" is a load of old B@@@@@. Answer me these questions please:

Why is there differing levels of professional sportsmen?
Why at any of the major golfing events there are favorites and others who will be lucky to make the cut?
If all it takes is good coaching and dedication then I think anyone on here with a young child should sell up everything and spend it on top coaching, as that shild will then by the time they are 18 be making millions of pounds a year on the tour, would you not agree?


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Andr3w, as much as I respect other peoples opinions and everyone has a right to express them I just think all of this *"if you want it bad enough you will get it" is a load of old B@@@@@. *Answer me these questions please:

Why is there differing levels of professional sportsmen?
Why at any of the major golfing events there are favorites and others who will be lucky to make the cut?
If all it takes is good coaching and dedication then I think anyone on here with a young child should sell up everything and spend it on top coaching, as that shild will then by the time they are 18 be making millions of pounds a year on the tour, would you not agree?
		
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I completely agree with the bolded comment above. 

The people that reach the very top are lucky beneficiaries of what is known as the multiplier effect. Basically everything went right for them in their development and it multiplies through. They are the result of many successful heads in a row tossing a coin  if you like. The ones that didn't make it maybe had a tail or 2 at some point in their development e.g. a promising footballer that broke a leg at a key stage in their development or fell in with the wrong coaches. 

Look at the research done into the birthdays of NHL players. They all fall at a very similar time near the cut off for being drafted i.e. because they were the oldest and hence biggest in the age group they will have appeared to have more talent and hence received more attention from the coaches. It's these little differences that count. 

Take Andy Murray, his first successful coin toss was being born to a renowned tennis coach and huge driver and motivator. Then there is having a brother to practise with who was also interested in it. Then if his family hadn't been able to make the sacrifices to send him to Spain he'd be washed up in the lower rankings right now and people would watch him get horsed at Wimbledon and deride him for his lack of 'natural talent'.


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## Jimbooo (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Unfortunately, these anecdotes are completely worthless unless all facts are put on the table. This is a question that requires rigorous research and scientific enquiry. Not just "2 blokes I know..."

Genetics certainly comes into it. A look at the physiques of golfers on tour suggest being tall and lithe is advantageous to being short and fat. But as for people coming out the womb with brains that are better able to adopt the neural pathways required to make golf swing motions - there is no evidence for this and the studies are showing that.
		
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OK, but I'm not just talking golf.  I've read Bounce and the Talent Code, and whilst I agree that hours of good practice can eventually make you a master at an activity, I believe that there's no getting away from the fact that some people just pick stuff up quicker than others (regardless their background).  It's like the kid at school who just seems to take to almost any sport better than others.  In a lot of cases, if you're good at one sport requiring any sort of hand-eye coordination (or foot-eye, etc), then you'll be good at most others.  Surely that kid hasn't unknowingly practised the skills needed for all those sports?

My son's 5-year old friend is football mad.  He practically does nothing else but that.  My son never really plays football, never has, and hasn't really any interest in it... yet it is plain to see that he can "naturally" control a football better than his football-addicted friend - who clearly hasn't got "it".


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## MadAdey (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Take Andy Murray, his first successful coin toss was being born to a renowned tennis coach and huge driver and motivator. Then there is having a brother to practise with who was also interested in it. .
		
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But surely going on what you are saying then his brother should be just as good as he is. As you said his brother plays tennis too, but is not as good as him. Yet, they would have recieved exactly the same level of coaching as it was their mum. 

So explain to me why there is such a difference in their abilities?


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			But surely going on what you are saying then his brother should be just as good as he is. As you said his brother plays tennis too, but is not as good as him. Yet, they would have recieved exactly the same level of coaching as it was their mum. 

So explain to me why there is such a difference in their abilities?
		
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I thought you might raise this. The answer is simple, life is complicated. None of us, even if we are brothers, are subject to the same millions of perceptions and experiences that define who we become.


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## CMAC (May 29, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			OK, but I'm not just talking golf.  I've read Bounce and the Talent Code, and whilst I agree that *hours of good practice can eventually make you a master at an activity*, I believe that there's no getting away from the fact that some people just pick stuff up quicker than others (regardless their background).  It's like the kid at school who just seems to take to almost any sport better than others.  In a lot of cases, if you're good at one sport requiring any sort of hand-eye coordination (or foot-eye, etc), then you'll be good at most others.  Surely that kid hasn't unknowingly practised the skills needed for all those sports?

My son's 5-year old friend is football mad.  He practically does nothing else but that.  My son never really plays football, never has, and hasn't really any interest in it... yet it is plain to see that he can "naturally" control a football better than his football-addicted friend - who clearly hasn't got "it".
		
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better, not master


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## Stuey01 (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I thought you might raise this. The answer is simple, life is complicated. None of us, even if we are brothers, are subject to the same millions of perceptions and experiences that define who we become.
		
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So basically what you're saying is that it is impossible to argue against your position because, you know, it's just sooo complicated.


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			So basically what you're saying is that it is impossible to argue against your position because, you know, it's just sooo complicated.
		
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It's an argument from ignorance and pre-conceived ideas that is being thrown around though. It's really very similar to religion. 

I don't know how the universe could have got here. Must be God.
I don't know why he's better than me. Must be natural talent.


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

In the case of the Murray brothers perhaps it's just a case of different personalities. Jamie seems a lot more laid back while Andy has an almost psychopathic determination and competitiveness and hates losing. It's easy to imagine that he trained a lot harder than Jamie did.


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## Jimbooo (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			In the case of the Murray brothers perhaps it's just a case of different personalities. Jamie seems a lot more laid back while Andy has an almost psychopathic determination and competitiveness and hates losing. It's easy to imagine that he trained a lot harder than Jamie did.
		
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...or maybe he just found it easier.


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## Stuey01 (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			It's an argument from ignorance and pre-conceived ideas that is being thrown around though. It's really very similar to religion. 

I don't know how the universe could have got here. Must be God.
I don't know why he's better than me. Must be natural talent.
		
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Rather depends on how you define natural talent doesn't it.
It is undeniable that some people are genetically predisposed to be taller, to have more fast twitch muscle fibres, or more slow twitch muscle fibres, or to have a different length lower leg to upper leg ratio, to be more intelligent, to have faster reflexes, to be left brain dominant, or right brain dominant.  All of these things and more could in the right combination contribute to being naturally better at a particular activity than another person. Natural talent.


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			Rather depends on how you define natural talent doesn't it.
It is undeniable that some people are genetically predisposed to be taller, to have more fast twitch muscle fibres, or more slow twitch muscle fibres, or to have a different length lower leg to upper leg ratio, to be more intelligent, to have faster reflexes, to be left brain dominant, or right brain dominant.  All of these things and more could in the right combination contribute to being naturally better at a particular activity than another person. Natural talent.
		
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You make good points especially in relation to physical attributes. There are certain natural physiques that will prosper in the NBA and some that won't. 

However, something like 'faster reflexes' benefiting in sport is actually a myth. Ability to respond quickly to a tennis serve comes from experience in subconsciously reading the motion of a server's body as he prepares to strike the ball. Matt Syed notes in Bounce that the player with the slowest natural reflexes in the club was actually the quickest at reacting to the ball i.e. it's domain dependant and based on experience.


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## Snelly (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			There's some really fascinating books out on this that would give answers to this that would do far more justice to the topic than I could in a forum post, try:

Bounce, Matthew Syed
Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell
The Talent Code, Daniel Coyle
Talent is Overrated, Geoff Colvin 


But, I mean, in summary the problem is they are just 'beating balls'. They say to master a field you need 10,000 hours of _deliberate practise_. I'd hazard many amateurs have scarcely achieved _1 hour_ of quality, deliberate practise!
		
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I agree with you entirely.   I used to think natural talent was a key component to sporting excellence and I was completely wrong. 

Bounce is a great book and I would advise all armchair experts on this thread that believe in the concept of natural talent to read this book carefully and re-consider their position.


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## Qwerty (May 29, 2014)

Andrew & Snelly,  if we're stripping this down to the bare bones and saying that natural Talent/ Ability doesn't exist Both Physically and Mentally...
Would we then be saying that its a totally level playing field for every individual from the moment we're born? and what happens from then on determines the outcome?


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## londonlewis (May 29, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			...or maybe he just found it easier.
		
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Or maybe he is just more naturally talented ....


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Andrew & Snelly,  if we're stripping this down to the bare bones and saying that natural Talent/ Ability doesn't exist Both Physically and Mentally...
Would we then be saying that its a totally level playing field for every individual from the moment we're born? and what happens from then on determines the outcome?
		
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My position would be that the importance of natural talent, whatever that is, is colossally overrated in our society and is a limiting way of thinking that holds children back.

ps thanks Snelly was beginning to feel a bit outnumbered!


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## londonlewis (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			My position would be that the importance of natural talent, whatever that is, is colossally overrated in our society and is a limiting way of thinking that holds children back.

ps thanks Snelly was beginning to feel a bit outnumbered!
		
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A hard worker will outperform a talented individual that doesn't work hard, no question. I don't think anyone in this forum is saying you can't be successful if you work hard but aren't actually talented in the beginning. 
But, you can't deny that some people have a natural ability to perform certain tasks - whether it is academia, languages, music or sports. 

Think about IQ levels for example. 
Some people have a low IQ, some people are off the charts. Are those that have an IQ of 180 always successful? no. Do they always achieve the best grades in exams? No.


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## CMAC (May 29, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			A hard worker will outperform a talented individual that doesn't work hard, no question. I don't think anyone in this forum is saying you can't be successful if you work hard but aren't actually talented in the beginning. 
But, you can't deny that some people have a natural ability to perform certain tasks - whether it is academia, languages, music or sports. 

Think about IQ levels for example. 
Some people have a low IQ, some people are off the charts. *Are those that have an IQ of 180 always successful? no. Do they always achieve the best grades in exams? No*.
		
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The majority of graduates I've hired in the last 20 years havent worked out. 1 was exceptional, most were average and the rest were awful.

To be fair thats only about 60-70 so not enough for a credible sample but the percentages extrapolated don't make good reading


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## Andr3w (May 29, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			A hard worker will outperform a talented individual that doesn't work hard, no question. I don't think anyone in this forum is saying you can't be successful if you work hard but aren't actually talented in the beginning. 
But, you can't deny that some people have a natural ability to perform certain tasks - whether it is academia, languages, music or sports. 

Think about IQ levels for example. 
Some people have a low IQ, some people are off the charts. Are those that have an IQ of 180 always successful? no. Do they always achieve the best grades in exams? No.
		
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But why are they better at music for example? Perhaps Kid1's father played classical music in the house all day long from when he was born until he went to school. Kid2 was not exposed to any music whatsoever before going to school. The music teacher's conclusion will unfortunately be that Kid1 has a "natural talent" for music and can pick up tones easily while Kid2 is just "tone-deaf".


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## CMAC (May 29, 2014)

nature or nurture


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## Stuey01 (May 29, 2014)

CMAC said:



			nature or nurture
		
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My view, nurture trumps nature, but nature + nuture trumps all.


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## TheClaw (May 29, 2014)

Since we are all different:

Are there certain physical and mental attributes that are important for golf?

If you have these attributes are you predisposed to being better than others who work as hard (or harder) than yourself?

What about proprioception rather than hand-eye coordination? Some folk are awkward and clumsy.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			You make good points especially in relation to physical attributes. There are certain natural physiques that will prosper in the NBA and some that won't. 

However, something like 'faster reflexes' benefiting in sport is actually a myth. Ability to respond quickly to a tennis serve comes from experience in subconsciously reading the motion of a server's body as he prepares to strike the ball. Matt Syed notes in Bounce that the player with the slowest natural reflexes in the club was actually the quickest at reacting to the ball i.e. it's domain dependant and based on experience.
		
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Must say Bounce is a cracking book and well worth a read for anyone really.  Certainly opened my eyes and found it very relevant to sport, my personal life and it also explained a lot why my company runs as it does.


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## williamalex1 (May 29, 2014)

In 1983 a 13 h/c mate of mine who had only been playing about 3 years, scored a scratch 70 net 57 at Carluke GC.
 He's never scored that low again.


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## RollinThunder (May 29, 2014)

Natural sporting ability will definitely play a role. If your a "natural athlete", who can play any sport to a good level, then you'll definitely have an advantage over someone who's not.

To GO AROUND in scratch I reckon is possible. I play off 18, and even I have parred 6 holes in a row, on what could be considered a mediocre day with the swing, so someone with a bit of luck, a few chip-ins, and a few long putts, just could go round in scratch. But in order to do that, you'd need to have a pretty solid game to rely on in the first place, so I reckon you'd need to get down to at most 10.

To go from PLAY-OFF scratch in a year is a bit deep though, unless you can naturally swing a club well, practice HELL of a lot, have a lesson every week, and probably give up everything in your life. 

If you go on the theory that it takes 10,000 hours to become "an expert" at something, 10,000 divided by 365 days is 27 hours per day of practice 

If it's to go around in scratch, If you got down to less than 10, then had a really good round, with a bit of luck thrown in, I reckon it can be done. To officially get your CONGU handicap down from 22 to 0 in a year seems a bit steep though, unless you practice and play every day, for the whole year.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2014)

Said this before but stand by it. By no way am I a talented sportsman (you only have to look at my swing) but I played football to a decent level, was a good club cricketer and did get down to single figures in my teens. However all of those successes have been the result of hours of work in training, the nets and on the practice ground to wring as much out of what little talent I possessed.


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## garyinderry (May 29, 2014)

what about singing?    natural talent?


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## stevelev (May 29, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			how many times do we see posts like this,most have a book or dvd to flog and we all know us golfers are the most easy led lot,if someone brought out a cream that you rubbed on your balls(steady) and put them in the fridge overnight to gain 50yds of the tee it would sell in its thousands,it you think a 24h/c golfer can get to scratch (congu)in twelve months its just wishful thinking.
		
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I've got a supplier of provisional balls if anyone is interested. If you use these instead of your usual ball its almost a dead cert that you'll stripe it down the middle or be pin high a few feet away for a birdie putt. If you want 3 they are slightly more expensive than ProV's but then again they are probably more accurate too


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## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			In the case of the Murray brothers perhaps it's just a case of different personalities. Jamie seems a lot more laid back while Andy has an almost psychopathic determination and competitiveness and hates losing. It's easy to imagine that he trained a lot harder than Jamie did.
		
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So what you are saying is that Andy has more of the killer instinct in him compared to Jamie? But they had exactly the same coaching. Would you say then that Andy's killer instinct is something that comes naturally to him then?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2014)

...and going back to the OP.  As the goal is not becoming a scratch golfer but being able to knock it round in level par then I suppose that that is achievable in a year from the given starting point.  

My observation would simply be that watching the 'Round One' video I see an awful lot of 'emotion' on show and disappointment at not meeting 'expectations'.  For me these are representative of the 'mental' aspect of game and unless these can be changed significantly they will undermine any improvement in his game brought about by lessons, practice and playing.  

In my experience in life - changing how you think, is a lot harder than changing what you say and do.

So good luck buddy - but don't beat yourself up if your progress towards a level par round is slower than you'd hope.  Changes in thinking can happen out of the blue and with these can come significant step changes in scoring.


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Andrew & Snelly,  if we're stripping this down to the bare bones and saying that natural Talent/ Ability doesn't exist Both Physically and Mentally...
Would we then be saying that its a totally level playing field for every individual from the moment we're born? and what happens from then on determines the outcome?
		
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I am not saying that no.  I am saying that physiology and genetics play a part in your natural affinity to succeed in sport but that this does not equate to natural talent and is actually a relatively small factor. 

What I am saying, is that for every exceptional exponent of a sport: Ayrton Senna, Lionel Messi, Tiger Woods etc, when you look at how their lives panned out from the moment they took up their chosen pursuit, you can clearly see that they were afforded unique circumstances that honed their skills to almost unprecedented levels. Furthermore, their contemporaries, without being given these unique opportunities, could not possibly get to their levels of excellence. 

So in summary, yes, you need some natural affinity for sport and a decent blank canvas as a starting point but for the most part, opportunity and application are what create the best sports people. 


For a much more erudite and better articulated explanation, please read Bounce by Matthew Syed.


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## c1973 (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I am not saying that no.  I am saying that physiology and genetics play a part in your natural affinity to succeed in sport but that this does not equate to natural talent and is actually a relatively small factor. 

What I am saying, is that for every exceptional exponent of a sport: Ayrton Senna, Lionel Messi, Tiger Woods etc, when you look at how their lives panned out from the moment they took up their chosen pursuit, you can clearly see that they were afforded unique circumstances that honed their skills to almost unprecedented levels. Furthermore, their contemporaries, without being given these unique opportunities, could not possibly get to their levels of excellence. 

So in summary, yes, you need some natural affinity for sport and a decent blank canvas as a starting point but for the most part, opportunity and application are what create the best sports people. 


For a much more erudite and better articulated explanation, please read Bounce by Matthew Syed. 

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Very true and an extremely well reasoned point.


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2014)

somewhere along this debate it as shifted from talking about natural talent to becoming the pinnacle of the sport. 


yes,these top sports stars have been afforded the best training but you can be dam sure they were naturals at their chosen sports. they worked hard to reach the very top.


all men are not created equal. if they were, sports would be very dull indeed!


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			somewhere along this debate it as shifted from talking about natural talent to becoming the pinnacle of the sport. 


yes,these top sports stars have been afforded the best training but you can be dam sure they were naturals at their chosen sports. they worked hard to reach the very top.


all men are not created equal. if they were, sports would be very dull indeed!
		
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How do you know they were naturals at their chosen sport?

What is you natural language? You appear to be very proficient at writing in English as we all do. Why...? Because we've all done it a heck of a lot. That's how you get really good at something and provide the illusion of being a _natural_ at it. 

People just cannot accept that some people are luckier, had more privileges and opportunities and frankly worked harder and sacrificed more than they could ever imagine. No, it's easier just to say they got magic cheat codes at birth. That seems easier to accept but is frankly an insult to what these people had to do to reach the top.


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2014)

I can do quite difficult mathematical problems. they are just a set of rules that I must follow to come to a solution.    solving these problems is fine.  dealing with numbers does not come easily to me.  it never has.  some people have a predisposition to doing maths and working with numbers.  they arrive at the answer a hell of a lot faster than I would.    in fact, they may even find 2 or 3 ways of arriving at the answer.  I will only find the one I have taught.      they have a natural affinity with numbers. I sadly do not!


tiger woods could turn his hand to any sport. he is just stupidly good at golf!


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			I can do quite difficult mathematical problems. they are just a set of rules that I must follow to come to a solution.    solving these problems is fine.  dealing with numbers does not come easily to me.  it never has.  some people have a predisposition to doing maths and working with numbers.  they arrive at the answer a hell of a lot faster than I would.    in fact, they may even find 2 or 3 ways of arriving at the answer.  I will only find the one I have taught.      they have a natural affinity with numbers. I sadly do not!


tiger woods could turn his hand to any sport. he is just stupidly good at golf!
		
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As we know, Tiger was swinging golf clubs since he was only about 18months old. Studies of the brains of elite violin players has shown that the size of the part of their brains that deals with fine finger control increases as competence increase. And, importantly, this effect is greater the _younger_ they are. Tiger did not come out the womb with the neural connections to make golf swings, that is simply not how the human brain works. But they were ingrained very shortly after, _and that is the difference_.


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			As we know, Tiger was swinging golf clubs since he was only about 18months old. Studies of the brains of elite violin players has shown that the size of the part of their brains that deals with fine finger control increases as competence increase. And, importantly, this effect is greater the _younger_ they are. Tiger did not come out the womb with the neural connections to make golf swings, that is simply not how the human brain works. But they were ingrained very shortly after, _and that is the difference_.
		
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tiger wasn't the first to have a club in hand from an early age.  he certainly wont be the last.

most kids in the UK have a ball to play with even before we know what to do with it. it doesn't mean we are going to turn into messi. nor does it guarantee that we will be even half decent at football.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			tiger wasn't the first to have a club in hand from an early age.  he certainly wont be the last.

most kids in the UK have a ball to play with even before we know what to do with it. it doesn't mean we are going to turn into messi. nor does it guarantee that we will be even half decent at football.
		
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Those kids didn't have the same set of circumstances and opportunities Tiger had. They didn't have Earl Woods, an incredibly driven and strong-minded individual pushing him to the limit. Everything was setup for him and everything went right in his development. Tiger is the 25 reds in a row in the roulette table that appears to be a miracle but in reality with a large enough pool of population in the world, is just bound to happen eventually.


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2014)

that doesn't take away from the fact that the young tiger could play the game, and play it well from an early age.  I have no doubt he was one of, if not top pick in every sport he played at school.  

you can see these types in every school up and down the country. 

some people can draw, others sing, some count, others build, run fast etc.  some people are just born to do it.  they have  certain something inside that you cant teach.  it just comes to the fore with a little luck (in finding this thing) hard work, dedication and practice.  sometimes it doesn't surface at all.

there are some very talented people sitting in boozers right now. they had the raw talent but it wasn't guided in the way you describe to get the best out of them.  it doesn't take away from the fact they have talent.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			that doesn't take away from the fact that the young tiger could play the game, and play it well from an early age.  I have no doubt he was one of, if not top pick in every sport he played at school.  

you can see these types in every school up and down the country. 

some people can draw, others sing, some count, others build, run fast etc.  some people are just born to do it.  they have  certain something inside that you cant teach.  it just comes to the fore with a little luck (in finding this thing) hard work, dedication and practice.  sometimes it doesn't surface at all.

there are some very talented people sitting in boozers right now. they had the raw talent but it wasn't guided in the way you describe to get the best out of them.  it doesn't take away from the fact they have talent.
		
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A lot of baseless assertions in there. How do you know people are 'born' to do something, rather than have it nurtured into them due to the environment they grew up in? Hunters in tribes in Africa are not 'born' to hunt any more than Tiger is born to play golf, they just learn to do it very well because they need to in order to survive. 

Yes Tiger has a naturally athletic physique with fast-twitch muscles so he is going to be suited to sports in a way someone who is 5foot nothing and fat is not. However, we're talking about what is going on in the brain.


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2014)

ok. what about people who thrive at things and do not come from these rich talent nurturing environments?


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2014)

some people are wired differently.  it cant be taught!

http://www.neatorama.com/2008/09/05/10-most-fascinating-savants-in-the-world/#!Skam6


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Go to a tour event and watch the professionals practise. If you're like me you'll be struck by how much of a mental and physical grind it appears to be. It looks like what it is - work, a chore. Watch them meticulously measure out putts and then hit putt after putt after putt from all different parts of the greens. It all just looks anything but natural.

The tour is littered with examples of players who stopped practising as much, assuming they could make it on their 'talent' alone.


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## Stuey01 (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			However, we're talking about what is going on in the brain.
		
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You are. Are you sure everyone else is?

I don't think you can seperate the brain from the physical, because to be the best both are necessary. Perhaps the brain stuff is learned, I actually agree with you on that, but having the physical genetic advantages could easily be construed as natural talent.


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## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w, did you miss my post at #119 or did you decide not to answer me as you had no argument for it.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I'm sorry but this concept of needing to have "it" in order to achieve excellence is an old fashioned way of thinking and based on pre-conceived and ill-informed notions.  

I could summarise many literature on this topic but take this academic piece for example which probably puts it better than I could:

http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/shanks_expertise.html

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Sorry but you still need a lot of natural ability to succeed in golf

I bet there are thousands of golfers out there that practise more than me ( zero hours for me ) and have more lessons than me ( zero lessons ) so they should have a better handicap than me ? Yes ?


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## CMAC (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			A lot of baseless assertions in there. How do you know people are 'born' to do something, rather than have it nurtured into them due to the environment they grew up in? *Hunters in tribes in Africa are not 'born' to hunt* any more than Tiger is born to play golf, they just learn to do it very well because they need to in order to survive. 

Yes Tiger has a naturally athletic physique with fast-twitch muscles so he is going to be suited to sports in a way someone who is 5foot nothing and fat is not. However, we're talking about what is going on in the brain.
		
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yes they are! man is a hunter gatherer, born to hunt to survive and procreate! the actual skills necessary for each situation or area are learned and developed.

Nature and nurture. You need the nature element and nurture what nature has provided.


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## Jimbooo (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w...

You seem to have missed or ignored the post about the maths...

I have a friend who is amazing at mental arithmetic. He has come from a very poor single parent family and has not been taught anything outside of school - not exactly the ideal environment, yet he was miles better than all the other educated kids in his class.  Spookily good.  You ask him how he's so good and the answer is "I don't know, I've just always found it easy.".

You are saying that there is no such thing as natural talent, it's all a product of their upbringing etc.  Sure, there is research that proves this in some cases... but not ALL cases... they cannot possibly.  I read Bounce, and really enjoyed it, but what I took from it was that given the right circumstances and practice, virtually anyone can become awesome at any activity.  That's fair enough and I don't dispute it.   But to say that's the only reason people get good at things, is crazy imo.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

CMAC said:



			yes they are! man is a hunter gatherer, born to hunt to survive and procreate! the actual skills necessary for each situation or area are learned and developed.

Nature and nurture. You need the nature element and nurture what nature has provided.
		
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OK but the point was that they aren't born with the skills to fire poisonous darts at tree-dwelling animals with pin-point accuracy. It has to be learned and practised.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			OK but the point was that they aren't born with the skills to fire poisonous darts at tree-dwelling animals with pin-point accuracy. It has to be learned and practised.
		
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Should someone who practises and has more lessons be better than someone who does neither ?


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			Andr3w...

You seem to have missed or ignored the post about the maths...

I have a friend who is amazing at mental arithmetic. He has come from a very poor single parent family and has not been taught anything outside of school - not exactly the ideal environment, yet he was miles better than all the other educated kids in his class.  Spookily good.  You ask him how he's so good and the answer is "I don't know, I've just always found it easy.".

You are saying that there is no such thing as natural talent, it's all a product of their upbringing etc.  Sure, there is research that proves this in some cases... but not ALL cases... they cannot possibly.  I read Bounce, and really enjoyed it, but what I took from it was that given the right circumstances and practice, virtually anyone can become awesome at any activity.  That's fair enough and I don't dispute it.   But to say that's the only reason people get good at things, is crazy imo.
		
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Sorry I missed that one, I do have a job to attend to as well unfortunately 

Again, the plural of anecdote is not data!


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## Davey247 (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but you still need a lot of natural ability to succeed in golf

I bet there are thousands of golfers out there that practise more than me ( zero hours for me ) and have more lessons than me ( zero lessons ) so they should have a better handicap than me ? Yes ?
		
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I completely agree with this statement.  People tend to get to where they should be handicap wise and will then move very little. If you are 30, been playing off 18-20 for 10 chances are you aint going to be a category 1 golfer.  

Personally playing off 12/13, I see it as a big task getting down to single figures and I know if I did I'd need to do a lot of work to stay there.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Andr3w, did you miss my post at #119 or did you decide not to answer me as you had no argument for it.
		
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His ultra competitive personality, however that was shaped, has probably helped him to train harder and succeed at tennis.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Davey247 said:



			I completely agree with this statement.  People tend to get to where they should be handicap wise and will then move very little. If you are 30, been playing off 18-20 for 10 chances are you aint going to be a category 1 golfer.  

Personally playing off 12/13, I see it as a* big task getting down to single figures *and I know if I did I'd need to do a lot of work to stay there.
		
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And you never will, I agree, because you've decided you can't do it already and so won't take the steps necessary to do it as you don't believe they'll work. It's self-fulfilling.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			And you never will, I agree, because you've decided you can't do it already and so won't take the steps necessary to do it as you don't believe they'll work. It's self-fulfilling.
		
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I'm guessing you don't want to answer my question 

I started playing golf 5 and a half years ago and without lessons and practising regulary have got down to cat 1 - is that not a case of me having natural ability for the game ?


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## JamesR (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing you don't want to answer my question 

I started playing golf 5 and a half years ago and without lessons and practising regulary have got down to cat 1 - *is that not a case of me having natural ability for the game *?
		
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*Of course it's natural talent.*

Same for me, I could hit a golf ball properly as a very small kid, without lessons, it was innate, natural ability. 
I'm also a lazy sod, and that is why I haven't got very low - I don't practice and only play two or three times per month. But my handicap is lower than many people who play a lot, practice incessantly and care a lot more about the game than me.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing you don't want to answer my question 

I started playing golf 5 and a half years ago and without lessons and practising regulary have got down to cat 1 - is that not a case of me having natural ability for the game ?
		
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I could also be a golfing wizard casting a spell on you to make you good at golf. The evidence for either is not available. Unless you have evidence for this 'natural ability' you refer to, it's purely an argument from ignorance.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I could also be a golfing wizard casting a spell on you to make you good at golf. The evidence for either is not available. Unless you have evidence for this 'natural ability' you refer to, it's purely an argument from ignorance.
		
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So how do I play golf to such a high standard for an amatuer without practise and lessons ?! 

Why do I have a better handicap than people that practise every day and have lessons every week ? 

My evidence is going from 24 to 5 in 5 years without a single lesson. 

My future wife hadn't picked up a set of clubs for over 3 years - went round in 9 over par - because she has a natural ability for the sport.


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## JamesR (May 30, 2014)

I've not read it so can't judge for myself, but why is Matthew Syed's book so definitively the correct answer. Why is he, a former wiff-waff player, the basis of fact?


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Gil_Emott said:



*Of course it's natural talent.*

Same for me, I could hit a golf ball properly as a *very small kid*, without lessons, it was innate, natural ability. 
I'm also a lazy sod, and that is why I haven't got very low - I don't practice and only play two or three times per month. But my handicap is lower than many people who play a lot, practice incessantly and care a lot more about the game than me.
		
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That's the proof of the pudding right there. You started early which is what we know helps hugely when learning anything! 

Practising incessantly can easily translate to going to the range and just whacking balls and ingraining faults which is what we know most amateurs are very good at!

My handicap will be about the same when it comes in and I likewise will be about to maintain it without too much effort. Just as I can get on a bike after a decade not cycling and maintain exactly the same level as before. Along with every other skill I take for granted that I have take time to learn how to do.


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## JamesR (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			That's the proof of the pudding right there. You started early which is what we know helps hugely when learning anything!
		
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That just proves that I could do it straight away because I had a natural affinity to play sports. All sports I've ever tried I could do straight away without coaching.


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## Jimbooo (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I could also be a golfing wizard casting a spell on you to make you good at golf. The evidence for either is not available. Unless you have evidence for this 'natural ability' you refer to, it's purely an argument from ignorance.
		
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Nope, its an argument of the plainly obvious!


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Gil_Emott said:



			That just proves that I could do it straight away because I had a natural affinity to play sports. All sports I've ever tried I could do straight away without coaching.
		
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I'm impressed you can remember how well you were playing as a very small kid. I would guess you went through a period of missing and miss-hitting the ball until your brain adapted and learned how to move the implement better and make good contact.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			Nope, its an argument of the plainly obvious! 

Click to expand...

That's what people say when you tell them God is an argument from ignorance. Oh, it's just obvious, it had to be an intelligence behind all this!


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## JamesR (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			I'm impressed
		
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Thanks :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			Nope, its an argument of the plainly obvious! 

Click to expand...

It's quite clear that some people have natural ability towards many things in sport 

You can teach and practise things but the level of your play will be mainly determined by the level of your natural ability not how much your practise etc.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Gil_Emott said:



			That just proves that I could do it straight away because I had a natural affinity to play sports. All sports I've ever tried I could do straight away without coaching.
		
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I played a lot of badminton when I was small and as a result was by far the best in my school. But in no way does that make me naturally talented. As a result of this I could pick up tennis or squash and it will seem easier for me than for others. Likewise I could probably pick up hockey or baseball better than most due to playing golf. 

You have to separate what you have gained after birth, with what you were born with, as it's very easy to mistake one for the other as we've all picked up so many skills without even realising it!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			That's what people say when you tell them God is an argument from ignorance. Oh, it's just obvious, it had to be an intelligence behind all this!
		
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So can you not tell me why I have a better handicap and play to a better standard of golf than a lot of people who practise more than me ?


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## Jimbooo (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			That's what people say when you tell them God is an argument from ignorance. Oh, it's just obvious, it had to be an intelligence behind all this!
		
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Hmm... I disagree... with this you can see it with your own eyes.

Anyway, I'd love to talk religion with you, but maybe in another thread


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## Davey247 (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			And you never will, I agree, because you've decided you can't do it already and so won't take the steps necessary to do it as you don't believe they'll work. It's self-fulfilling.
		
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...so in your logic, as a 28 year old who hasn't played football much more than the odd game of 5-a-side could absolutely (with the hard work and dedication) have a shot of improving my game such that I could be in with a chance of getting to the 2018 World Cup in Russia?? 

The fact is, some people are good at sports, some people aren't.  I'm not saying that in exceptional cases the odd person could go from duffer to top dog, but these are rare.  Most cases people find there level within a few years and will then improve and cut their hcp by around 20% max in the next 10-15 years


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Davey247 said:



			...so in your logic, as a 28 year old who hasn't played football much more than the odd game of 5-a-side could absolutely (with the hard work and dedication) have a shot of improving my game such that I could be in with a chance of getting to the 2018 World Cup in Russia?? 

The fact is, some people are good at sports, some people aren't.  I'm not saying that in exceptional cases the odd person could go from duffer to top dog, but these are rare.  Most cases people find there level within a few years and will then improve and cut their hcp by around 20% max in the next 10-15 years
		
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We learn things better when we're younger. Our developing brains are like sponges, soaking up information and techniques etc. So, no at 28 you're most likely too old to reach elite level football.


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## Davey247 (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			So, no at 28 you're most likely too old to reach elite level football.
		
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Damn


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Davey247 said:



			Damn
		
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I'm guessing he doesn't know why there are people who don't practise have better handicap and play better golf than people that do practise.


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## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

It is impossible to debate a point with someone who does not listen and just refers to books that back up his claim. I have read a lot of books on golf and how to get better at it. Everyone had a different idea, as if everyone had the same one it would not sell. If someone comes up with a new theory then they will push it as being correct and will do their best to interpret stats and research to back it up.

I have read things on all these types of topics and in brackets how I interpret them.

bio-mechanics (the ability to learn a repetitive motion)
course management (understanding how to get round the course)
Golf psychology (being able to get in the right frame of mind)
just grip it and rip and do not care about anything else (get on with it and stop worrying)
practice, practice, then practice again (hard work and persistence)
being born with natural talent (being able to do it just because you can)
and many more.

Are any of these ideas wrong? No not at all, just in the same way none of them are right. But if you take a bit of all of them then you will crack it and be at the top of the game.

Vijay said an interesting one years ago. He said he has to practice at least twice as hard as other tour golfers out there, because he does not have the same natural ability as some of the other top players. That is a top tour player saying that, or he was in his day when he said it.

if you go on the theory that it is all about working hard and practising and nothing to do with natural ability, then all it takes is a lot of money to be the best. As then you will have the best coach, best psychologist, best personal trainer and the best facilities to practice in.  

Another example of ability is a pro footballer. When Gerrard started at LFC at the age of 9 other players would have been there also and probably played alongside him all way to the under 18 team but how many of them are top class footballers? Surely everyone as they all had access to the same level of training and guidance.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing he doesn't know why there are people who don't practise have better handicap and play better golf than people that do practise.
		
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You're making simplistic one variable comparisons.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			It is impossible to debate a point with someone who does not listen and just refers to books that back up his claim. I have read a lot of books on golf and how to get better at it. Everyone had a different idea, as if everyone had the same one it would not sell. If someone comes up with a new theory then they will push it as being correct and will do their best to interpret stats and research to back it up.

I have read things on all these types of topics and in brackets how I interpret them.

bio-mechanics (the ability to learn a repetitive motion)
course management (understanding how to get round the course)
Golf psychology (being able to get in the right frame of mind)
just grip it and rip and do not care about anything else (get on with it and stop worrying)
practice, practice, then practice again (hard work and persistence)
being born with natural talent (being able to do it just because you can)
and many more.

Are any of these ideas wrong? No not at all, just in the same way none of them are right. But if you take a bit of all of them then you will crack it and be at the top of the game.

Vijay said an interesting one years ago. He said he has to practice at least twice as hard as other tour golfers out there, because he does not have the same natural ability as some of the other top players. That is a top tour player saying that, or he was in his day when he said it.

if you go on the theory that it is all about working hard and practising and nothing to do with natural ability, then all it takes is a lot of money to be the best. As then you will have the best coach, best psychologist, best personal trainer and the best facilities to practice in.  

Another example of ability is a pro footballer. When Gerrard started at LFC at the age of 9 other players would have been there also and probably played alongside him all way to the under 18 team but how many of them are top class footballers? Surely everyone as they all had access to the same level of training and guidance.
		
Click to expand...

Then there's Tiger who has said he doesn't have any natural talent but is instead a product of his circumstances, environment and conditioning.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Ability at sport is "imprinted" on our brains like a native language if we start young. Then as we get older it appears that we find sport easy in the same way that we find speaking English easy. We appear to be able to maintain our native language skills without much effort and it looks easy. Meanwhile the foreign speaker is "practising incessantly" to try to reach our "Tiger Woods" levels of English. But they probably never will, _as they didn't start young enough_.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			You're making simplistic one variable comparisons.
		
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Not at all 

I have managed to get to a very good level without practise and lessons - simply because I believe I have a natural ability for the game 

You have dismissed people have natural ability putting it all down to practise and work.


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So how do I play golf to such a high standard for an amatuer .
		
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You don't.  You're off 5.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			You don't.  You're off 5.
		
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Do you not believe that to be a high standard for an amatuer golfer then - when you consider the average is around 18


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Gil_Emott said:



			I've not read it so can't judge for myself, but why is Matthew Syed's book so definitively the correct answer. Why is he, a former wiff-waff player, the basis of fact?
		
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I am not saying it is definitive.  It is just a lot more credible an argument than yours.


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## Qwerty (May 30, 2014)

I reckon this one has legs, it just needs someone with plenty of time on their hands to back up Andrew   I can't see it rivalling The HNSP thread though 


I haven't read it but Ive looked into the book by the Ping Pong player, and I'd love to believe what he's claiming so I guess I'll have to read it.
It appears though that its about people achieving excellence.. Being the absolute best they can in their chosen profession/sport.
The natural talent I'm claiming exists is at a much lower level.. Mates growing up who couldn't of played any more football than I did & yet went on to achieve great things. I spent every spare moment with a ball at my feet, was quick, right size & physique, I just didn't have the talent they had.We we're all young, Same background, what made the difference if it wasn't natural talent. 

Although nothing can be proven Theres endless amounts of examples out there.( I'm going to mention Greg Norman again)

Im sure Matthew Syed is an intelligent guy and the book sounds interesting but surely Natural Talent cannot be totally Dismissed. 
Im presuming Mr Syed is claiming it should be?


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you not believe that to be a high standard for an amatuer golfer then - when you consider the average is around 18
		
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There's no wonder you've racked up 7863 posts so fast with gems like this eh?


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## JamesR (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I am not saying it is definitive.  It is just a lot more credible an argument than yours.
		
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I'm not saying mine is fact, it's just what I believe (and I'm far too stubborn to change my point of view), I'm just interested in the theory that because he say's so it must be fact!
Is it his own work/theory or other "experts" views that he uses, is he qualified etc ? - asking out of interest, not just so I can attempt to disprove.


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Im presuming Mr Syed is claiming it should be?
		
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No.  And neither am I.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			There's no wonder you've racked up 7863 posts so fast with gems like this eh?
		
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So what do you consider to be high standard for an amatuer golfer then


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you not believe that to be a high standard for an amatuer golfer then - when you consider the average is around 18
		
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The average handicap is much higher than that. 
Apparently 80% of golfers will not achieve a handicap of less than 18.


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			We learn things better when we're younger.
		
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Do you have proof to back this up or is this your opinion? 
Sounds like you are a strong believer in 'you can't teach old dogs new tricks'. 
Nonsense.


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## Jimbooo (May 30, 2014)

Another example...

Take Ronnie O'Sullivan, when he's on form he glides around the table and plays so naturally and gracefully, like it's second nature.  It comes easy to him, he sees the angles quickly, can see the shots easy, has no problem with technique or the pace to hit the ball.  It comes naturally.  This also came naturally to him when he was 10 years old, it wasn't a learned skill over 10000 perfect practice hours.

There have been dozens of top-class snooker professionals who have played the game since childhood, been coached by top coaches, and have all the attributes to reach the pinnacle of their sport.  Yet none of these find it as easy as Ronnie.

You just have to look at the difference between how Ronnie plays and how some of the slower more technique based players play (e.g. Barry Hawkins, Mark Selby, Marko Fu, etc ) to know that some are just more naturally gifted than others.

To me, natural talent is a combination of innate good timing and hand-eye coordination. Not everyone has it.  Those with it just find things easier.

So given any 2 infants with the same physique, are you saying that one will never find it easier than the other at learning any given skill?


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Gil_Emott said:



			I'm not saying mine is fact, it's just what I believe (and I'm far too stubborn to change my point of view), I'm just interested in the theory that because he say's so it must be fact!
Is it his own work/theory or other "experts" views that he uses, is he qualified etc ? - asking out of interest, not just so I can attempt to disprove.
		
Click to expand...

I used to share your view but changed my mind after reading Bounce.  Perhaps better if you read it rather than me paraphrase the arguments.  That said, his views are based on his experience as an Olympic medal winning athlete combined with the investigations he made in order to write the book, including a lot of interviews with experts in this field and other top sports people.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			The average handicap is much higher than that. 
Apparently 80% of golfers will not achieve a handicap of less than 18.
		
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I believe ( happy to be corrected ) that cat 1 golfers are in the 3-5% of all handicap golfers in the country


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I used to share your view but changed my mind after reading Bounce.  Perhaps better if you read it rather than me paraphrase the arguments.  That said, his views are based on his experience as an Olympic medal winning athlete combined with the investigations he made in order to write the book, including a lot of interviews with experts in this field and other top sports people.
		
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Did he win a medal ? 

Understand he spoke to a number of Olympic medal winners including Lewis but again it is small percentage of athletes he spoke to and just one view


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what do you consider to be high standard for an amatuer golfer then
		
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Why do you want to know?  And isn't it relatively obvious anyway given that we have already established that I don't think 5 is it?


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Ability at sport is "imprinted" on our brains like a native language if we start young. Then as we get older it appears that we find sport easy in the same way that we find speaking English easy. We appear to be able to maintain our native language skills without much effort and it looks easy. Meanwhile the foreign speaker is "practising incessantly" to try to reach our "Tiger Woods" levels of English. But they probably never will, _as they didn't start young enough_.
		
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I would like to use this argument to suggest this is also nonsense. 

Give or take a couple of months all children will start to talk at the same age and therefore all children begin to learn a language at the same age. 

Using your analogy above this would mean that the ability of learning languages is "imprinted" on our brains because everyone starts young. Therefore as we get older we should all find learning languages easy because this ability has been imprinted on our brains. 

But we know that this is not true. Some people never master their native language, that's for sure. However there are many well educated, highly erudite individuals who struggle to even learn a sentence in a foreign language. But how can this be? The ability to learn a language was "imprinted" at a young age. 

But we also know that there are people who have an ability to learn languages easily and are now multi-lingual. Some of these individuals have studied hard to learn foreign languages, others have picked them up very easily. But we all started to learn our first language at the same time. 

I apologise but I don't buy into your theories or your analogies.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Why do you want to know?  And isn't it relatively obvious anyway given that we have already established that I don't think 5 is it?
		
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So what is your level for high standard ? You dismissed my idea of high standard - surely the next stage into counter it with your own opinion ?


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe ( happy to be corrected ) that cat 1 golfers are in the 3-5% of all handicap golfers in the country
		
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Not sure on the stats for this but it wouldn't come as a big surprise if this was correct.


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did he win a medal ? 

Understand he spoke to a number of Olympic medal winners including Lewis but again it is small percentage of athletes he spoke to and just one view
		
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My mistake - Commonwealth Medals...

http://www.matthewsyed.co.uk/  - read all about him here.


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Why do you want to know?  And isn't it relatively obvious anyway given that we have already established that I don't think 5 is it?
		
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I'm keen to know what you think is a high standard. 
Also keen to know what you play off - as this will help me to understand why you think your answer to the above.


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			surely the next stage into counter it with your own opinion ?
		
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The next stage is for me to confess that you have, once again, bored me into submission with your typical pedantry and borderline OCD, must know best style of petty points scoring.


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## duncan mackie (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe ( happy to be corrected ) that cat 1 golfers are in the 3-5% of all handicap golfers in the country
		
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probably a reasonable working estimate. 

will be well under 1% of golfers though (because of the % of handicap golfers to that group as well as the capabilities of that wider group)

discussed here a few years ago.......http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?22912-single-figure-golfers


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## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			I'm keen to know what you think is a high standard. 
Also keen to know what you play off - as this will help me to understand why you think your answer to the above.
		
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OK then, for the hard of learning, I think better than scratch is a *high *standard of golf for an amateur. But it doesn't really matter does it as in effect, all we are doing is having a debate about our, clearly different, interpretations of the word "high."

And I don't have a handicap but played off 3 in the last three rounds I played.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			Do you have proof to back this up or is this your opinion? 
Sounds like you are a strong believer in 'you can't teach old dogs new tricks'. 
Nonsense.
		
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It's a well-known fact in brain science. Children have more neurons actively creating new connections so they can learn things quicker.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			I would like to use this argument to suggest this is also nonsense. 

Give or take a couple of months all children will start to talk at the same age and therefore all children begin to learn a language at the same age. 

Using your analogy above this would mean that the ability of learning languages is "imprinted" on our brains because everyone starts young. Therefore as we get older we should all find learning languages easy because this ability has been imprinted on our brains. 

But we know that this is not true. Some people never master their native language, that's for sure. However there are many well educated, highly erudite individuals who struggle to even learn a sentence in a foreign language. But how can this be? The ability to learn a language was "imprinted" at a young age. 

But we also know that there are people who have an ability to learn languages easily and are now multi-lingual. Some of these individuals have studied hard to learn foreign languages, others have picked them up very easily. But we all started to learn our first language at the same time. 

I apologise but I don't buy into your theories or your analogies.
		
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The analogy referred to learning the native language not just learning languages in general.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Why are some footballers better than others when they do the same training ?

Why are some Rugby players , cricket players etc etc - the list is endless 

Some people are just naturally better than others at certain things in life and nothing I have seen makes me think any different


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Snelly said:



			OK then, for the hard of learning, I think better than scratch is a *high *standard of golf for an amateur. But it doesn't really matter does it as in effect, all we are doing is having a debate about our, clearly different, interpretations of the word "high."

And I don't have a handicap but played off 3 in the last three rounds I played.
		
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Alright mate, calm down.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			It's a well-known fact in brain science. Children have more neurons actively creating new connections so they can learn things quicker.
		
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Is it a fact or a theory ? 

I was able to learn more academically later in life - struggled in school but was able to get a degree in my 30's


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are some footballers better than others when they do the same training ?

Why are some Rugby players , cricket players etc etc - the list is endless 

Some people are just naturally better than others at certain things in life and nothing I have seen makes me think any different
		
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Again you're making blindingly simplistic comparisons. The entire development of a human being from birth until into adulthood cannot be summed up with "do the same training".


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			The analogy referred to learning the native language not just learning languages in general.
		
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I appreciate you spoke about learning languages in your analogy, however the purpose of my analogy was to dispute what you said about sports. Not what you said about language learning.


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			It's a well-known fact in brain science. Children have more neurons actively creating new connections so they can learn things quicker.
		
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So does this mean that a human's ability to learn will diminish at a continual rate as they get older? 

I love it when people throw the word 'fact' around when discussing something they know bugger all about and something which the experts would admit they are continually learning and disproving their previous theories. 

I'm also pretty sure that they prefer to call it neurology. Not 'brain science'.


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## Jimbooo (May 30, 2014)

Question for you Andr3w...

Do you think that hand-eye coordination is innate in people, or solely a learned skill?


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it a fact or a theory ? 

I was able to learn more academically later in life - *struggled in school *but was able to get a degree in my 30's
		
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With the simple arguments you're making I'm not entirely surprised, sorry if that sounds harsh.


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## Jimbooo (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w... for a slightly different perspective on this debate...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sports-Gene-Talent-Practice-Success/dp/022409162X/ref=sr_1_1

Maybe those of you who've read Bounce, should also read this.


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			With the simple arguments you're making I'm not entirely surprised, sorry if that sounds harsh.
		
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Referees, 2 points deducted for a low blow.
now, let's get it on.


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## Qwerty (May 30, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			Referees, 2 points deducted for a low blow.
now, let's get it on.
		
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:rofl:   It was definately low though.


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## G1BB0 (May 30, 2014)

Mr Average to scratch in 12 month?

I doubt it but then again nothing is impossible just some things are harder to achieve than others this being one of them


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			Andr3w... for a slightly different perspective on this debate...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sports-Gene-Talent-Practice-Success/dp/022409162X/ref=sr_1_1

Maybe those of you who've read Bounce, should also read this.
		
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Haven't read this but from the reviews there seems to be a strong focus on physical genetic differences which I would not deny are important. Bounce is more focused on the brain.


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## Jimbooo (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Haven't read this but from the reviews there seems to be a strong focus on physical genetic differences which I would not deny are important. Bounce is more focused on the brain.
		
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Maybe you should read it?  You can't always go on reviews.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Jimbooo said:



			Question for you Andr3w...

Do you think that hand-eye coordination is innate in people, or solely a learned skill?
		
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Feel like I'm being set up to get this wrong. If it is inherited then why does mine appear to be so much better than both my parents? Did I get a mutation for hand-eye coordination? What we refer to as reactions or hand-eye coordination really tend to be domain specific skills that are developed with experience in that domain. They can of course be transferred somewhat to other, similar domains.


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## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			Again you're making blindingly simplistic comparisons. The entire development of a human being from birth until into adulthood cannot be summed up with "do the same training".
		
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Are you a politician?

Your argument keeps changing to keep yourself ahead, is it that just me or have others noticed it?

Your opinion all boils around if you work hard and train hard then 2 people that have exactly the same training will achieve the same level if they are committed. I respect that as your opinion, because I prefer to debate things than just shout each other down, I love a good old debate. 

To then reply to a post though saying that it is not all about just training them self, surely is a contradiction to your original argument. You originally made the point that there is nothing such as natural ability, it is something you practice and train to do.


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Are you a politician?

Your argument keeps changing to keep yourself ahead, is it that just me or have others noticed it?

Your opinion all boils around if you work hard and train hard then 2 people that have exactly the same training will achieve the same level if they are committed. I respect that as your opinion, because I prefer to debate things than just shout each other down, I love a good old debate. 

To then reply to a post though saying that it is not all about just training them self, surely is a contradiction to your original argument. You originally made the point that there is nothing such as natural ability, it is something you practice and train to do.
		
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The point was that you could only ever get 2 people to have the exact same lives in theory. In reality there's any number of reasons why their performances might diverge as they go through life. If you read previous posts by myself and Snelly you'll see that those that reach the very very top have lived through a unique set of circumstances. They are the 25 reds in a row, the winning lotto ticket. With a big enough sample someone will win the lottery. Likewise someone will have the best parents, the best natural physical attributes, the best coaching, the best advice, the best environment, the best funding, not get injured, have no distractions... the list is endless. Claiming this statistical inevitability as some weird undiscovered evolutionary mutation of golf/tennis/whatever gene is just plain wrong!


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## Rumpokid (May 30, 2014)

No..Got to be above Mr average to get to scratch in IMHO.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			With the simple arguments you're making I'm not entirely surprised, sorry if that sounds harsh.
		
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Certainly is a low blow with the handbag 

Think MadAdey is spot on about you being a politician - avoiding direct questions , sly digs and trying to sound clever 

Genetics differ in us all - we all have natural talents and abilities for certain things in life 

Some people try and hone and polish that talent to get the best out themselves but you need the talent there in the first place if you want to really succeed in one area


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## Andr3w (May 30, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Certainly is a low blow with the handbag 

Think MadAdey is spot on about you being a politician - avoiding direct questions , sly digs and trying to sound clever 

Genetics differ in us all - we all have natural talents and abilities for certain things in life 

Some people try and hone and polish that talent to get the best out themselves but you need the talent there in the first place if you want to really succeed in one area
		
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If you say so.


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## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

Andr3w said:



			The point was that you could only ever get 2 people to have the exact same lives in theory. In reality there's any number of reasons why their performances might diverge as they go through life. If you read previous posts by myself and Snelly you'll see that those that reach the very very top have lived through a unique set of circumstances. They are the 25 reds in a row, the winning lotto ticket. With a big enough sample someone will win the lottery. Likewise someone will have the best parents, the best natural physical attributes, the best coaching, the best advice, the best environment, the best funding, not get injured, have no distractions... the list is endless. Claiming this statistical inevitability as some weird undiscovered evolutionary mutation of golf/tennis/whatever gene is just plain wrong!
		
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But surely using the Murray brothers is the best example. From exactly the same parents, with their mum coaching both children so they had exactly the same support and nurturing. One has won Wimbledon, one hasn't. Was it that Andy had a desire and determination that his brother didn't? So there was a natural mental aspect to Andy that enabled him to become the better player. 

What I would say is that no one really knows what it is that makes an elite sportsman. It can't be argued that good practice plays a large part. But surely you need that natural state of mind and determination to succeed, along with right physical attributes. I would have more chance of being a pro rugby player than a jockey, but that is my natural physical make up. There is no way that I could for all the training in the world become a champion jockey. Likewise someone who is 5 foot would never be an NBA player.


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2014)

you don't have to be a world beater to have a little natural talent!    jebus!


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## Andr3w (May 31, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			you don't have to be a world beater to have a little natural talent!    jebus!  

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They're just easier subjects to discuss as they're at the extreme end of the spectrum and we can all research about their lives and how they got there. Rather than "my mate down the pub who never practises and is off 5"


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## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2014)

I've already said on here I don't think the OP will do it and I remain unchanged in that. All this mumbo jumbo about genetics, training et al ridiculous. With a good coach, big balance for range balls and lessons and as much time as possible to devote to it, a decent single figure handicap is definitely in range. A level par round depends on so many variables though and human engineering isn't one of them.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I've already said on here I don't think the OP will do it and I remain unchanged in that. All this mumbo jumbo about genetics, training et al ridiculous. With a good coach, big balance for range balls and lessons and as much time as possible to devote to it, a decent single figure handicap is definitely in range. A level par round depends on so many variables though and human engineering isn't one of them.
		
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Sorry but surely to even get to single figures you need to be able to swing a golf club relatively well and that movement requires good human engineering.


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## guest100718 (Jul 26, 2014)

have you done it yet or given up..


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## CMAC (Jul 26, 2014)

give him a chance, its only 2mths and he did a +15 2 weeks ago, so def sign its on the right track


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## DaveM (Jul 26, 2014)

Yes you can do it with no problem. I've shot 4 under rounds when my handicap was 14. Many years ago now mind you. Happy to be in the 80tys now.


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## Agent Pies (Jul 26, 2014)

I watched a program with Alice Cooper the other day. He went from having never played golf to a 9 handicap in 12 months.

He played 36 holes a day with 2 different sets of golf pro's.


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## guest100718 (Jan 2, 2015)

I wonder how close to his goal he has got so far? Or if he is even till trying.


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## Val (Jan 2, 2015)

I'd suggest he's still trying or has given up, for many of us a level par or sub par comp round is a holy grail of golf and less likely than a hole in one


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## CMAC (Jan 2, 2015)

seems to have stopped week 7! https://docs.google.com/a/brokenhz....R3BGWV-MMr4PsWlhUHA3-MWFU6Fs/edit?pli=1#gid=0 


oh well, at least he tried....a bit.


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## guest100718 (Jan 2, 2015)

CMAC said:



			seems to have stopped week 7! https://docs.google.com/a/brokenhz....R3BGWV-MMr4PsWlhUHA3-MWFU6Fs/edit?pli=1#gid=0 


oh well, at least he tried....a bit.
		
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7 weeks! lol, There's a contact address on the OP, we should ask him how he's doing.


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## turkish (Jan 2, 2015)

On twitter said he's really struggling- best he's had is 17


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## guest100718 (Jan 2, 2015)

turkish said:



			On twitter said he's really struggling- best he's had is 17
		
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Well, with about 5 months to go, i'll take a punt and say he's not going to make it..


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## turkish (Jan 2, 2015)

Tough challenge though. Glad I seen this thread definitely going to read john richardsons book. Even if in doing so brings down his handicap a worthwhile exercise


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## Oddsocks (Jan 2, 2015)

turkish said:



			On twitter said he's really struggling- best he's had is 17
		
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Isn't that the level people generally get stuck at


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2015)

Hate to say ........... We told him so!


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## sawtooth (Jan 2, 2015)

If you practice extremely hard and are coached well then yes you could do it.

Good luck


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## Oddsocks (Jan 2, 2015)

I think you would honestly need a pro friend to coach you daily, but a lot would come down to your understanding of the game in areas such as course management .

I don't think its that hard to get to high single figures quickly, I think looking below 6 is when a lot of skill is involved....


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## MadAdey (Jan 2, 2015)

Oddsocks said:



			I think you would honestly need a pro friend to coach you daily, but a lot would come down to your understanding of the game in areas such as course management .

I don't think its that hard to get to high single figures quickly, I think looking below 6 is when a lot of skill is involved....
		
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This will always be my take too. Playing to 9 you can still have bad shots and mess up the odd hole or 2 as long as you have enough good ones or drop a couple of birdies in. 

Playing to scratch, if you have a triple bogey then your round is more or less over, unless you have it in you to make 14 pars and 3 birdies for the rest of the round. To play to scratch I still believe that there are things in golf that you learn over time like how to put a score together, because at some point your are going to need to scramble to make a score on a hole.


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## Ethan (Jan 2, 2015)

After 24 pages of posts, have we finally concluded that the answer to the original post is "No".


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## MadAdey (Jan 2, 2015)

Ethan said:



			After 24 pages of posts, have we finally concluded that the answer to the original post is "No".
		
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Exactly, yet again another that has proven that doing this is almost impossible. 

Can it be done? Of course it is possible.

Is it going to be done? Not very likely.


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## Simbo (Jan 2, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			This will always be my take too. Playing to 9 you can still have bad shots and mess up the odd hole or 2 as long as you have enough good ones or drop a couple of birdies in. 

Playing to scratch, if you have a triple bogey then your round is more or less over, unless you have it in you to make 14 pars and 3 birdies for the rest of the round. To play to scratch I still believe that there are things in golf that you learn over time like how to put a score together, because at some point your are going to need to scramble to make a score on a hole.
		
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9 and scratch are millions of miles apart.

Whilst I agree that most guys in cat 1 have a triple bogey their game is pretty much done but I played with our club record holder when he shot it and he had 2 double bogeys on his card and shot 8 under.


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## robert.redmile (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm trying to get from 25 to single figures in a year. I'll do it. I'm certain of it.


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## MadAdey (Jan 2, 2015)

Simbo said:



			9 and scratch are millions of miles apart.

Whilst I agree that most guys in cat 1 have a triple bogey their game is pretty much done but I played with our club record holder when he shot it and he had 2 double bogeys on his card and shot 8 under.
		
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But I bet he was an experienced golfer that has the knowledge of how to recover from the slip ups. 

9 and scratch are not even in the same ball park. You do not need birdies to play to 9 just lots of pars. To play level par your going to drop a shot somewhere so birdies will be needed.


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## MadAdey (Jan 2, 2015)

robert.redmile said:



			I'm trying to get from 25 to single figures in a year. I'll do it. I'm certain of it.
		
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That is easily possible. My mate Pete got from 26 to 12 in a season and that was with having a month out due to a bad back. Without the lay off he would have got to single figures.


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## turkish (Jan 2, 2015)

Madadey can I ask how much your friend played and practiced in this time to get that difference?


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## MadAdey (Jan 2, 2015)

turkish said:



			Madadey can I ask how much your friend played and practiced in this time to get that difference?
		
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Probably played 3-4 rounds a week, couple of trips a week to the range and had quite a few lessons early spring.

Fortunately he is a self made business man so didn't have to worry about fitting in golf around work and his wife had started playing too so he was always at the golf club.


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## robert.redmile (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm glad u think it's easily possible! I have to do it! 
for my sanity, and bank balance!!!!


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## CMAC (Jan 2, 2015)

I got from 18 to 5 in a season, 2 more seasons to get to 3.

I had time to practice and youth on my side- no lessons and no t'interweb and using blades.........

...and you try telling the young folk of today that, they won't believe you


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 3, 2015)

CMAC said:



			I got from 18 to 5 in a season, 2 more seasons to get to 3.

I had time to practice and youth on my side- no lessons and no t'interweb and using blades.........

...and you try telling the young folk of today that, they won't believe you

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That's very impressive, but 3 isn't scratch. Why do you think you never made it below 3?


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## Ethan (Jan 3, 2015)

DaveM said:



			Yes you can do it with no problem. I've shot 4 under rounds when my handicap was 14. Many years ago now mind you. Happy to be in the 80tys now.
		
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That is not being a scratch golfer. That is having a rare fluke round. Getting to scratch means, to me, obtaining a legitimate playing handicap of 0. 

I played with a PGA Tour player who took up golf aged 14. After one year he was off 3, after another +1 or 2. But he was an exceptionally talented player with a family pedigree of professional sportspeople, and very very few people are like that. 

For 'Mr Average', the answer is clearly 'You must be joking, mate'. For 'Mr Exceptional' with loads of talent, time and money for good coaching, the answer is 'Maybe'.


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## bobmac (Jan 3, 2015)

If you were off 24.4 and shot 9 under your handicap, you'd be cut to 20.8
 If you were off 4.4 and shot 9 under your handicap you'd still be off 4.
Don't forget also the buffer for Cat I is +1

In answer to the ops question 'can Mr Average to become a scratch golfer in just 12 months', my answer would be an emphatic no, not a chance.


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2015)

Well, having flicked through your FB page, and seen the level of commitment to practicing etc, no. You might fluke something close but it will be a huge huge fluke. Hope you're enjoying the journey tho'.


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## CMAC (Jan 3, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			That's very impressive, but 3 isn't scratch. Why do you think you never made it below 3?
		
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exactly! I was just saying I wasn't even close and I felt I had a bit of talent but the gap from 3 to scratch is as big a cavern as 20 to 3 imo.


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## garyinderry (Jan 3, 2015)

Is there even enough time for someone to start shooting the numerous under par rounds necessary to get down to scratch.  Think of the poor conditions through the summer you would have to play in and still shoot under.  It isn't all sunshine and perfect weather allowing great scoring.


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## Qwerty (Jan 3, 2015)

As Gary said.. Theres just not enough time (not in this country anyway) you'd have to hit the ground running at the start of the season, A scratch golfer knows their own game very well, when to attack when to play conservatively.
 Surely you'd need that experience as well as the talent.


Surely it's never been done,the  Quickest Im aware of is Greg Norman..2 years.
One of the best to have played the game and double the time were talking about.. it's just not happening.


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## Nosevi (Jan 3, 2015)

One of the problems with most of these challenges is that they use the word "scratch" and quite often they have no idea what it means. They often mean a single round to par, they often don't even mean a single round to SSS. In the states where only the best 10 of your last 20 rounds count it would be easier to accomplish but here it'd be impossible to get from a high handicapper to scratch in a year as you'd need to be playing off a scratch player's ability from the off to give it time for your handicap to drop....... but you're not, you're a high handicapper at the beginning.

The other side of the coin is that most have no concept of what it will take for anyone other than a super talented guy or girl to get to scratch level or better (let alone having a scratch handicap) in anything like that time scale. Looking at the google doc earlier in the thread it's pretty obvious that you'd need to put in a heap more work than that in order to achieve that kind of a goal. Sorry to the OP but that's the truth.

I've spoken to several who have tried to do this kind of thing and am in contact with several who are currently doing similar. In part it's to learn from their mistakes if I'm honest (but I do offer to share mine). One thing that stands out with all of them is that an idea of documenting the lot online, letting people see what you are doing, isn't going to help. Many think it'll keep them on track but in reality it doesn't help with the overall goal. Pretty quickly the outward 'image' of what you are doing becomes more important than the goal itself, posting on the blog and 'proving' you are improving takes priority over actually working on your game or fitness, it takes priority over the goal itself.

Look at someone like Simon Thornton (European Tour Player). He was a 7 handicap in his mid 20s having played since his teens when he decided to work seriously on his game 2 years later he was on the Europro Tour and he's recently won on the European Tour some years later. How did he do it? No idea, there was no blog, no book, no interviews. Seems like he got a good instructor, got his head down and worked hard.


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## wrighty1874 (Jan 3, 2015)

No.


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