# Serena Williams  - Disgraceful



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 9, 2018)

https://www.news.com.au/sport/tenni...e/news-story/19bfa5e39fadd88e54a0ddd217c37816

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-at-umpire-as-superb-naomi-osaka-wins-us-open

So Serena Williams gets a code violation for "coaching" ( which it appears was correct ) - she then cant accept it and goes on ranting at the umpire with accusations towards the umpire , then gets a point deduction and a game deduction - accusing the umpire of sexism.

Its spoilt brat disgusting behaviour and should be treated severly

Its a shame she spoilt her opponents moment


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 9, 2018)

Well said.  Her behaviour was that of a petulant child who has a tantrum because things aren't going her way.   Totally deserved penalties throughout and naturally she played the race card to try and justify her actions.  Great tennis player, appalling person.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 9, 2018)

Watched it live last night a work.

She just didn't have it and instead of accepting that, she has tarnished Osaka's win. Her coach has apparently admitted the violation. She needs to go on a massive charm defensive now. If the governing body don't hit her hard for this then i think they need to take a long look at themselves.

She seems to have changed since her return, she's had a few little outbursts.


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## HowlingGale (Sep 9, 2018)

Pathetic Shark said:



			she played the race card to try and justify her actions.  Great tennis player, appalling person.
		
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Saw it on the news. I didn't hear the race bit, I only heard her trying to justify herself not lying by saying something about her little girl, and her being a mother. 

That is disgraceful enough but to then falsely accuse someone of racism is just as bad as racism itself as it totally undermines genuine efforts to eradicate a scourge on society. Should be given a hefty ban if all that is found to be true. Utterly classless.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2018)

Watched it on the news this morning. She is now trying to excuse it by playing the sexiest card. According to her, had she been a man then it would have been okay to question the honesty of the umpire and call him a thief ðŸ˜µðŸ˜µ. Utterly lacking in class, she stole the biggest moment of the winners life by finding excuses for her own poor play. Disgusting behaviour and well done the umpire for having the guts to see this through. I hope the fine is huge.

Just seen another clip at the end ceremony where the crowd are booing and the winner is visibly upset and crying, not tears of joy. Really sad.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 9, 2018)

Not seen any of this but had a good read about it. Ironically she has loads of support from American ex players and now pundits On social media But non Americans are saying she was bang out of order. She has gone on record as saying that "she would never cheat by coaching from the sidelines and would sooner lose". He coach has gone on record as saying " he was trying to coach/cheat" from the sidelines. Come what may, she was outplayed, she has used sexism, rascism and threatened the umpire with all sorts. For one of the best women players of all time who has fought for blacks, equal rights etc. It is a poor show indeed.


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2018)

Very disappointing, MacInroe-esque temper tantrum. No doubt a fine and, maybe, sanctions coming her way. But at least her runners up speech acknowledged Naomiâ€™s great win, and she did say that it was time stop booing Naomi and applaud a great win.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 9, 2018)

Think shes just showing her true colours.
Shes nothing but a bully.


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## bobmac (Sep 9, 2018)

If the rules say a coach can't give her advice and if he gave her advice then she has no case.
If she doesn't agree with the rule, the middle of a match is not the place to discuss it.
Having a tantrum and having a go at the umpire for doing his job was out of order, and someone should teach her it's rude to point


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2018)

I watched it live, expecting a challenging and intriguing match. In some ways it was, in others, not.

Serena's tactical nous has never impressed me, but she has been able to overwhelm her opponents with power - and pretty good placement!
Right from the off, she seemed 'lost' about how to combat Osaka. I get the impression that she is not a great 'thinker'!

The initial code violation seemed pretty reasonable to me, though I interpreted her coach's sign differently to some commentators. Serena should have made her - quite reasonable imo - protest, thrown her towel on the chair or ground and got on with her job. There was no actual penalty involved, so 'nothing lost'. Instead, the frustration she obviously felt about her game got the better of her and, in an unacceptable loss of professionalism, she 'lost it'! The 'Racquet Abuse' CV was irrefutable! I thought she that might have been the end of the petulance, but her continued loss of control was always going to 'end in tears'!

I've never really been a great Serena fan for some reason (possibly the tactical nous mentioned above), though her results and some of her shots are hugely impressive! Her comeback after life-threatening conditions following the birth of her daughter has also been impressive. But losing her cool, as she certainly did last night, destroys much of the respect she might have gained.

I think she'll have a new coach in the very near future!


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## Piece (Sep 9, 2018)

I havenâ€™t seen the incident only read it. Interestingly the sexist card is being played. Lifted from BBC Sport:

â€œAmerican 12-time Grand Slam singles champion *Bille Jean King:*When a woman is emotional, she's "hysterical" and she's penalised for it. When a man does the same, he's "outspoken" & and there are no repercussions. Thank you, @serenawilliams, for calling out this double standard. More voices are needed to do the same.

*Two-time Grand Slam champion Victoria Azarenka:* If it was a men's match, this wouldn't happen like this. It just wouldn't.â€


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2018)

Piece said:



			I havenâ€™t seen the incident only read it. Interestingly the sexist card is being played. Lifted from BBC Sport:

â€œAmerican 12-time Grand Slam singles champion *Bille Jean King:*When a woman is emotional, she's "hysterical" and she's penalised for it. When a man does the same, he's "outspoken" & and there are no repercussions. Thank you, @serenawilliams, for calling out this double standard. More voices are needed to do the same.

*Two-time Grand Slam champion Victoria Azarenka:* If it was a men's match, this wouldn't happen like this. It just wouldn't.â€
		
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This conveniently ignores her behaviour towards officials, towards her opponent. They are an attempt at distraction in true Mourhino style. It's a shame Billie Jean King is not so bothered about the impact on the winner and respect towards officials.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This conveniently ignores her behaviour towards officials, towards her opponent. They are an attempt at distraction in true Mourhino style. It's a shame Billie Jean King is not so bothered about the impact on the winner and respect towards officials.
		
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Not defending Williams, but didnâ€™t we see the Female Tennis player reprimanded for changing her sweaty top on court, yet the men sit there topless and nothing is said or done.
Maybe there is an element of double standards in the game?


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## Fish (Sep 9, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Not defending Williams, but didnâ€™t we see the Female Tennis player reprimanded for changing her sweaty top on court, yet the men sit there topless and nothing is said or done.
Maybe there is an element of double standards in the game?
		
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Simple end to that argument, allow the women to sit topless then!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 9, 2018)

Fish said:



			Simple end to that argument, allow the women to sit topless then!
		
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ðŸ¤¨

I believe the umpire has apologised for the warning the lady player got for changing her top - said he got it very wrong


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## Fish (Sep 9, 2018)

Is she married to Lukaku, 2 flat track bullies together, a marriage made in heaven ðŸ˜œ


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## Bigfoot (Sep 9, 2018)

Serena needs to understand that application of the rules can vary from one rules official to another. Ask any football supporter over here. 

The only sport I see that seems to have got it right is American Football but they use video for decision making in tough decision situations.

She lost her cool and should not be trying to justify her actions. Others may have got away with it with other umpires but it does not mean she should.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 9, 2018)

HowlingGale said:



			Saw it on the news. I didn't hear the race bit, I only heard her trying to justify herself not lying by saying something about her little girl, and her being a mother.

That is disgraceful enough* but to then falsely accuse someone of racism is just as bad as racism* *itself *as it totally undermines genuine efforts to eradicate a scourge on society. Should be given a hefty ban if all that is found to be true. Utterly classless.
		
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Sorry, but I disagree with that; to falsely accuse someone of racism is far worse than racism itself, and I say that not to defend or diminish racism but to emphasise just how much worse than the act I consider the false accusation to be.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 9, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Not defending Williams, but didnâ€™t we see the Female Tennis player reprimanded for changing her sweaty top on court, yet the men sit there topless and nothing is said or done.
Maybe there is an element of double standards in the game?
		
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Tbf to the umpire though. There is a rule against women changing on court. There isnâ€™t for men. So whilst itâ€™s stupid she got penalised, It was simply an umpire informing rules. Also, I believe the rules are from the individual organisations. In this case itâ€™s actually the WTA that have the rule. So it was womenâ€™s tennis punishing her as such. Not a man, or menâ€™s tennis.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Not defending Williams, but didnâ€™t we see the Female Tennis player reprimanded for changing her sweaty top on court, yet the men sit there topless and nothing is said or done.
Maybe there is an element of double standards in the game?
		
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Two entirely different situations and her quoting that is trying to give her own bullying rant credibility. Papas has given a good answer to that point but I believe the rule has now been changed anyway. It was a daft rule, correct that it has been removed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Tbf to the umpire though. There is a rule against women changing on court. There isnâ€™t for men. So whilst itâ€™s stupid she got penalised, It was simply an umpire informing rules. Also, I believe the rules are from the individual organisations. In this case itâ€™s actually the WTA that have the rule. So it was womenâ€™s tennis punishing her as such. Not a man, or menâ€™s tennis.
		
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A rule, as stated above, the umpire apologised for, fact is there are disparities between the way men and women are treated.
It still doesnâ€™t excuse Williams behaviour


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Two entirely different situations and her quoting that is trying to give her own bullying rant credibility. Papas has given a good answer to that point but I believe the rule has now been changed anyway. It was a daft rule, correct that it has been removed.
		
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I said I was wasnâ€™t excusing Williams behaviour, my response was in reply to others remarking on the differences.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Tbf to the umpire though. There is a rule against women changing on court. There isnâ€™t for men. So whilst itâ€™s stupid she got penalised, It was simply an umpire informing rules. Also, I believe the rules are from the individual organisations. In this case itâ€™s actually the WTA that have the rule. So it was womenâ€™s tennis punishing her as such. Not a man, or menâ€™s tennis.
		
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Unfortunately not a WTA rule, hereâ€™s their statement:
The code violation that USTA handed to Alize Cornet during her first round match at the U.S. Open was unfair and it was not based on a WTA rule, as the WTA has no rule against a change of attire on court,â€ the WTA statement reads. â€œThis code violation came under the Grand Slam rules and we are pleased to see the USTA has now changed this policy. Alize did nothing wrong.â€


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			A rule, as stated above, the umpire apologised for, fact is there are disparities between the way men and women are treated.
It still doesnâ€™t excuse Williams behaviour
		
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The WTA are not a shy organisation, as shown by how they have managed equal pay at grand slam events. If there are outdated rules then they need to look at themselves. Perhaps the shirt incident will encourage them to go through their rulebook.

You were clear about not excusing Williams, no problem.

Your last post was added whilst I was typing. Good to post it. It is different to the story that was put out initially.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 9, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately not a WTA rule, hereâ€™s their statement:
The code violation that USTA handed to Alize Cornet during her first round match at the U.S. Open was unfair and it was not based on a WTA rule, as the WTA has no rule against a change of attire on court,â€ the WTA statement reads. â€œThis code violation came under the Grand Slam rules and we are pleased to see the USTA has now changed this policy. Alize did nothing wrong.â€
		
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Just seen a later report from wta. I stand corrected. Intial report I saw had quoted them as the rule makers in the scenario. Having read that, it appears it was still a violation as the rule stated players must change whilst in their seat. Totally agree common sense should have prevailed, but appears the umpire simply followed a rule.

Re your first response. I agree it doesnâ€™t excuse Williams. I wasnâ€™t defendimg her in any way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Just seen a later report from wta. I stand corrected. Intial report I saw had quoted them as the rule makers in the scenario. Having read that, it appears it was still a violation as the rule stated players must change whilst in their seat. Totally agree common sense should have prevailed, but appears the umpire simply followed a rule.

Re your first response. I agree it doesnâ€™t excuse Williams. I wasnâ€™t defendimg her in any way.
		
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I know you werenâ€™t defending Williams mate.
I believe the US Open officials initially put the blame on the WTA, also the Umpire hasnâ€™t apologised either, the US Open officials apologised to Cornet saying the Umpire was incorrect and they have clarified the rule.
Looks like they were happy to pass on responsibility to everyone else.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 9, 2018)

https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/tennis...0180909-p502q2.html?__twitter_impression=true


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## fundy (Sep 9, 2018)

Serena fined a grand total of $17k for 3 code violations, thats gonna show her!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 9, 2018)

fundy said:



			Serena fined a grand total of $17k for 3 code violations, thats gonna show her!
		
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Bottled it because they are scared of the â€œsexismâ€ or racism card being thrown at them. Basically people can thrown abuse at the umpire now

You can see all the US sports people backing her but you only have to look at this to see what a spoilt brat she is - if thatâ€™s the example she is setting her children 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038703823173312512


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Bottled it because they are scared of the â€œsexismâ€ or racism card being thrown at them. Basically people can thrown abuse at the umpire now

You can see all the US sports people backing her but you only have to look at this to see what a spoilt brat she is - if thatâ€™s the example she is setting her children


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038703823173312512

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You keep quoting racism, she never accussed the umpire of that, sexism yes, and according to Roddick in this piece, sheâ€™s got a point.
Men have been throwing abuse at Umpires for years and never received a game point.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/09/09/us/serena-williams-sexism-tennis-controversy/index.html


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## Beezerk (Sep 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Bottled it because they are scared of the â€œsexismâ€ or racism card being thrown at them. Basically people can thrown abuse at the umpire now

You can see all the US sports people backing her but you only have to look at this to see what a spoilt brat she is - if thatâ€™s the example she is setting her children


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038703823173312512

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Absolutely classless.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2018)

No excuse for that no matter what sex you are.
But tennis does treat men and women differently ! Men play five sets


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 10, 2018)

But they do get paid the same which is nice.

"In women's tennis, I always root for the heterosexual."


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## Crazyface (Sep 10, 2018)

I think the headline of the thread says it all really.


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## IanM (Sep 10, 2018)

Barry Cowan was on the radio this morning.... he read ouit a list of fines dished out to male players recently.

Ms Williams.................... seems like you were under charged.  Maybe they should up the fine?


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2018)

Radio 5 phone in was interesting this morning, seemed to be a split between black women pulling the race and sexist card and white women saying she needs to grow up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

IanM said:



			Barry Cowan was on the radio this morning.... he read ouit a list of fines dished out to male players recently.

Ms Williams.................... seems like you were under charged.  Maybe they should up the fine?
		
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I heard that interview and I thought he spoke very well. Okay, I agreed with his comments and we all like it when that happens but he spoke rationally and backed up everything very well. He even cleared up the shirt changing moment, the umpire was correct, not sexist but the rule is outdated and should be changed for those who want to know. At the end of the day you can't just abuse or question the officials in any sport. If you allow that to happen then it is a bad day for that sport. 

Williams is trying to change the narrative to cover her own behaviour but when you strip it back she behaved in a shameful manner. Don't lose that as the key in all of this.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Radio 5 phone in was interesting this morning, seemed to be a split between black women pulling the race and sexist card and white women saying she needs to grow up.
		
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How does that work in this instance though? Williams was playing an Asian female. She wasn't playing a man or a white female. Was the umpire an inconsistent bigot? Williams has not mentioned race, as others have pointed out. Callers may be trying to introduce it into the debate but Williams did not.


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How does that work in this instance though? Williams was playing an Asian female. She wasn't playing a man or a white female. Was the umpire an inconsistent bigot? Williams has not mentioned race, as others have pointed out. Callers may be trying to introduce it into the debate but Williams did not.
		
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Yes, it was some callers who brought it into the debate, there was stunned silence at one point.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 10, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Radio 5 phone in was interesting this morning, seemed to be a split between black women pulling the race and sexist card and white women saying she needs to grow up.
		
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How can you tell someoneâ€™s colour on the radio?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I heard that interview and I thought he spoke very well. Okay, I agreed with his comments and we all like it when that happens but he spoke rationally and backed up everything very well. He even cleared up the shirt changing moment, the umpire was correct, not sexist but the rule is outdated and should be changed for those who want to know. At the end of the day you can't just abuse or question the officials in any sport. If you allow that to happen then it is a bad day for that sport.

Williams is trying to change the narrative to cover her own behaviour but when you strip it back she behaved in a shameful manner. Don't lose that as the key in all of this.
		
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Youâ€™re making it sound like sheâ€™s the first Tennis player ever to abuse an official, christ sake, LP even brought her child in to the discussion.
She playing on the biggest stage in the world at the top of her sport, they need to sort the Officials out.
Try googling the Umpire and see what comes up


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			How can you tell someoneâ€™s colour on the radio?
		
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Itâ€™s an art ðŸ˜‰


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## Tashyboy (Sep 10, 2018)

There would of been none of this with VAR. ðŸ˜‰


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## Robster59 (Sep 10, 2018)

Her rant was totally out of order.  Yes, people can question the official but not to the excesses that she went to. 
But to brand the umpire and use words like liar, cheat and to brandish the sexism card just seems to me to be petulance.


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			Her rant was totally out of order.  Yes, people can question the official but not to the excesses that she went to.
But to brand the umpire and use words like liar, cheat and to brandish the sexism card just seems to me to be petulance.
		
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Sheâ€™s just come across as a bully who is used to getting her own way. All that â€œapologise to meâ€ was embarrassing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			Her rant was totally out of order.  Yes, people can question the official but not to the excesses that she went to.
But to brand the umpire and use words like liar, cheat and to brandish the sexism card just seems to me to be petulance.
		
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She is shocking - only have to look at her history , threatening the line judge at one point - in this rant she even brought her child into it going on about how she isnâ€™t a cheat because she needs to be a good influence- well shouting and screaming and throwing abuse isnâ€™t really a great role model


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## Slab (Sep 10, 2018)

Didnâ€™t see it live and not really a tennis fan but I am surprised how many of her peers seem to be focusing more on saying â€˜she has a pointâ€™ rather than her belligerent and disrespectful attitude to a match official and her opponent

If she has a point then the final of a grand slam event is probably not the place for her to raise it, end of story really. I assume in tennis the player is accountable for their coaches actions much like a golfer and his caddy. I assume also that Serena knew this, so it doesnâ€™t matter a jot whether she saw the advice and it was purely coincidence she did just what had been advised to do, she has to take the penalty for a rules breach (& take it up with her coach after the match)

The rest is just escalation from that judgment with her attempting to deflect and justify her innocence with an overtly public display and in doing so she managed to insult the official 

We all have idiosyncrasies that rub us up the wrong way, maybe the umpire is like me in that if you stand there finger-wagging at me (+ throwing in insults like thief/liar) youâ€™re gonna get pretty short-shrift until you change your behaviour and apologise to me


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			She is shocking - only have to look at her history , threatening the line judge at one point - in this rant she even brought her child into it going on about how she isnâ€™t a cheat because she needs to be a good influence- well shouting and screaming and throwing abuse isnâ€™t really a great role model
		
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You canâ€™t judge her as a parent, if she is fighting for something she believes in and is passionate then who are we to judge how she brings her child up.
People in glass houses etc......


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re making it sound like sheâ€™s the first Tennis player ever to abuse an official, christ sake, LP even brought her child in to the discussion.
She playing on the biggest stage in the world at the top of her sport, they need to sort the Officials out.
Try googling the Umpire and see what comes up
		
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Paul, I dislike anyone abusing officials in any sport. It is a pet hate of mine and I would say the same about anyone who behaved in the same way. Rooney was appalling for it, as are many footballers for example. Tennis has other meltdowns but the thread is about this particular one as it was in a final, it was a few days ago and it was a massive one. It was particularly aggressive, unpleasant and it dominated the end of the match. The official was correct in all of his decisions, tennis people are stating this over and over. She is the one who lost it and elevated the problem. Even a football ref would send a player off if he called him a cheat, which is what she did, and they take levels of abuse that are riduculous without blinking. If I was in charge of the umpires association I would asking for an urgent meeting with the relevant bodies regarding this. Officials need protecting, their integrity in particular.

If you want to even it up then we can always start a Nick Kyrgios thread as he creates a storm most tournaments. He has done plenty of disgraceful things in his career so far, given up on matches, abused officials etc. He gets the fine, pays it and moves on.

Regarding LP bringing her child into the discussion, she did that. She brought it up in her rant. She lost it, simple.


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## Robster59 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Paul, I dislike anyone abusing officials in any sport. It is a pet hate of mine and I would say the same about anyone who behaved in the same way. Rooney was appalling for it, as are many footballers for example. Tennis has other meltdowns but the thread is about this particular one as it was in a final, it was a few days ago and it was a massive one. It was particularly aggressive, unpleasant and it dominated the end of the match. The official was correct in all of his decisions, tennis people are stating this over and over. She is the one who lost it and elevated the problem. Even a football ref would send a player off if he called him a cheat, which is what she did, and they take levels of abuse that are riduculous without blinking. If I was in charge of the umpires association I would asking for an urgent meeting with the relevant bodies regarding this. Officials need protecting, their integrity in particular.

If you want to even it up then we can always start a Nick Kyrgios thread as he creates a storm most tournaments. He has done plenty of disgraceful things in his career so far, given up on matches, abused officials etc. He gets the fine, pays it and moves on.

Regarding LP bringing her child into the discussion, she did that. She brought it up in her rant. She lost it, simple.
		
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I'm the same.  Maybe it's being brought up with Rugby (both codes) but the referee is treated with respect and anyone who disagrees is immediately penalised.  I don't know why more sports don't adopt this culture.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Regarding LP bringing her child into the discussion, she did that. She brought it up in her rant. She lost it, simple.
		
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Correct, she was the one who brought her child into the rant. What that has to do with anything I don't know, or are we to assume she thinks that once a woman becomes a mother she also becomes a saint?
Sadly she has shown herself to be a bully and someone with no grace or class. She showed no respect for the officials, their position, what they represent or her opponent. She had a very partisan crowd on her side and milked it.
If she lost every tennis match from now on I wouldnt be upset.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			I'm the same.  Maybe it's being brought up with Rugby (both codes) but the referee is treated with respect and anyone who disagrees is immediately penalised.  I don't know why more sports don't adopt this culture.
		
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Hockey and cricket for me so it is the same. It grates on me when anyone in any sport turns on an official.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Paul, I dislike anyone abusing officials in any sport. It is a pet hate of mine and I would say the same about anyone who behaved in the same way. Rooney was appalling for it, as are many footballers for example. Tennis has other meltdowns but the thread is about this particular one as it was in a final, it was a few days ago and it was a massive one. It was particularly aggressive, unpleasant and it dominated the end of the match. The official was correct in all of his decisions, tennis people are stating this over and over. She is the one who lost it and elevated the problem. Even a football ref would send a player off if he called him a cheat, which is what she did, and they take levels of abuse that are riduculous without blinking. If I was in charge of the umpires association I would asking for an urgent meeting with the relevant bodies regarding this. Officials need protecting, their integrity in particular.

If you want to even it up then we can always start a Nick Kyrgios thread as he creates a storm most tournaments. He has done plenty of disgraceful things in his career so far, given up on matches, abused officials etc. He gets the fine, pays it and moves on.

Regarding LP bringing her child into the discussion, she did that. She brought it up in her rant. She lost it, simple.
		
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First things first, she didnâ€™t call him a cheat, she called him a thief.

She brought her child into it to defend herself from being called a cheat! The coach may of admitted he used hand signals afterwards, but she was punished for it, she stated she didnâ€™t see the hand signals, therefore she was being accussed of cheating and, imo, is quite right to defend herself.
No issue with the raquet violation.
The match point for calling him a thief was born out of frustration and again he has been abused and sworn at and never used that penalty.
The WTA have come out and defended her, the US Open is reviewing their communication side of it.
Sometimes things get changed by people fighting for whatâ€™s right.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Sometimes things get changed by people *fighting for whatâ€™s right*.
		
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Indeed!

She was *rightly* penalised for her coach's actions.
She was *rightly* penalised for the destruction of her racquet.
And she was *rightly* penalised for her abuse of an official!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed!

She was *rightly* penalised for her coach's actions.
She was *rightly* penalised for the destruction of her racquet.
And she was *rightly* penalised for her abuse of an official!
		
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In your opinion.


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## Kellfire (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			In your opinion.
		
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That isn't really how rules work...


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			First things first, she didnâ€™t call him a cheat, she called him a thief.

She brought her child into it to defend herself from being called a cheat! The coach may of admitted he used hand signals afterwards, but she was punished for it, she stated she didnâ€™t see the hand signals, therefore she was being accussed of cheating and, imo, is quite right to defend herself.
No issue with the raquet violation.
The match point for calling him a thief was born out of frustration and again he has been abused and sworn at and never used that penalty.
The WTA have come out and defended her, the US Open is reviewing their communication side of it.
Sometimes things get changed by people fighting for whatâ€™s right.
		
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The umpire never called her a cheat and she also called the umpire a liar as well as a thief.

She was totally out of order and all 3 violations were spot on IMO.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			That isn't really how rules work...
		
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Theyâ€™re meant to be fair and consistent.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			In your opinion.
		
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His, and many ex-players too.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			The umpire never called her a cheat and she also called the umpire a liar as well as a thief.

She was totally out of order and all 3 violations were spot on IMO.
		
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Isnâ€™t getting coached â€œcheatingâ€ ?
So from her point of view he was calling her a cheat.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			His, and many ex-players too.
		
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Not those supporting her, itâ€™s not as cut and dried as many make out.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Isnâ€™t getting coached â€œcheatingâ€ ?
So from her point of view he was calling her a cheat.
		
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I repeat, the umpire did NOT call her a cheat.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			In your opinion.
		
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And the opinion of those rather better qualifiead than you or I am.

Btw. She does have 'history' about 'losing it'!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I repeat, the umpire did NOT call her a cheat.
		
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What was the first penalty for?
Never used the actual word, neither did she, but yet Iâ€™ve seen no one pick that up on here when people have said she used the word!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Correct, she was the one who brought her child into the rant. What that has to do with anything I don't know, or are we to assume she thinks that once a woman becomes a mother she also becomes a saint?
Sadly she has shown herself to be a bully and someone with no grace or class. She showed no respect for the officials, their position, what they represent or her opponent. She had a very partisan crowd on her side and milked it.
If she lost every tennis match from now on I wouldnt be upset.
		
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Yep spot on

The umpire didnâ€™t call her a cheat - he responsed to the coaches attempts to coach his player - which is against the rules and the player gets a warning which is all she got - she should have directed her anger at her coach

But she then couldnâ€™t handle getting a warning which I suspect is down to her arrogance

She then smashed her raquet when she was loosing - again another correct violation and was given the point deduction which again - correct

Thatâ€™s when she started abusing the umpire with her demands and accusing him of all sorts and he rightly deemed that Umpire abuse - third strike

The umpire was spot on with his decisions but Williams believed she was above those rules - she threw in the sexism card which was wrong and her rants where both disrespectful to the umpire as well as pathetic - bringing her own child into the rant was low.

Itâ€™s no surprise certain areas are supporting her and not an umpire who followed the correct procedure . If it was a low ranked player they would be banned.

Only have to look at history in the sport to see many occasions of her disgraceful rants at officials


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			And the opinion of those rather better qualifiead than you or I am.

Btw. She does have 'history' about 'losing it'!
		
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Best close the forum if we arenâ€™t allowed to discuss decisions in sport then!


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			What was the first penalty for?
Never used the actual word, neither did she, but yet Iâ€™ve seen no one pick that up on here when people have said she used the word!
		
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She used the word cheat several times during her series of rants. Have you watched the incident in full?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep spot on

The umpire didnâ€™t call her a cheat - he responsed to the coaches attempts to coach his player - which is against the rules and the player gets a warning which is all she got - she should have directed her anger at her coach

But she then couldnâ€™t handle getting a warning which I suspect is down to her arrogance

She then smashed her raquet when she was loosing - again another correct violation and was given the point deduction which again - correct

Thatâ€™s when she started abusing the umpire with her demands and accusing him of all sorts and he rightly deemed that Umpire abuse - third strike

The umpire was spot on with his decisions but Williams believed she was above those rules - she threw in the sexism card which was wrong and her rants where both disrespectful to the umpire as well as pathetic - bringing her own child into the rant was low.

Itâ€™s no surprise certain areas are supporting her and not an umpire who followed the correct procedure . If it was a low ranked player they would be banned.

Only have to look at history in the sport to see many occasions of disgraceful rants at officials
		
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So this time the Official has used her as an example for all the previous times they got it wrong?
Iâ€™m confused with your point.
Surely any of us would want our child to think we stood up for what we believe in rather than be labelled a cheat, which in essence the first violation was for.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			She used the word cheat several times during her series of rants. Have you watched the incident in full?
		
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Yes, first time she uses the word cheat is in the post match interview.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			What was the first penalty for?
		
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It was for her coach "coaching".
The rules are simple on it, it's not allowed and the umpire called them on it. Whether she saw him or not, the point is the coach admitted he was doing it straight after, so she cannot say he wasn't doing it.
Instead of ranting at the umpire, she should be directing her anger at the coach for putting her in that situation.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, first time she uses the word cheat is in the post match interview.
		
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I am afraid you are mistaken, you should watch it again...


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			So this time the Official has used her as an example for all the previous times they got it wrong?
Iâ€™m confused with your point.
Surely any of us would want our child to think we stood up for what we believe in rather than be labelled a cheat, which in essence the first violation was for.
		
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It was cheating though, she looked up at the box where her coach was giving hand signals. Whether she saw them or not is moot, the coach cheated therefore as a team they cheated and the penalty was given accordingly.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, first time she uses the word cheat is in the post match interview.
		
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Here's a transcript of what she said before she got her loss of game penalty to save you looking for a video...

"Unbelievable, every time I play here, I have problems,â€ said Williams. â€œI did not get coaching, I don't cheat. You need to make an announcement. I have a daughter and I stand for what's right for her. You owe me an apology.
â€œFor you to attack my character is something that is wrong,â€ Williams continued. â€œYou will never ever, ever be in another final. You are a liar.â€ Then, when she called Ramos a â€œthiefâ€ for taking away a point from her, he gave her a code violation for verbal abuse, resulting in the game penalty that carried Osaka to 5-3 in the second set.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I am afraid you are mistaken, you should watch it again...
		
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Please provide a link.
Hereâ€™s a 3 minute one, were she doesnâ€™t
https://globalnews.ca/video/4436493...umpire-thief-in-outburst-during-us-open-final


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## Kellfire (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Please provide a link.
Hereâ€™s a 3 minute one, were she doesnâ€™t
https://globalnews.ca/video/4436493...umpire-thief-in-outburst-during-us-open-final

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She talks about cheating within seconds of that clip starting.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Here's a transcript of what she said before she got her loss of game penalty to save you looking for a video...

"Unbelievable, every time I play here, I have problems,â€ said Williams. â€œI did not get coaching, I don't cheat. You need to make an announcement. I have a daughter and I stand for what's right for her. You owe me an apology.
â€œFor you to attack my character is something that is wrong,â€ Williams continued. â€œYou will never ever, ever be in another final. You are a liar.â€ Then, when she called Ramos a â€œthiefâ€ for taking away a point from her, he gave her a code violation for verbal abuse, resulting in the game penalty that carried Osaka to 5-3 in the second set.
		
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Youâ€™re missing the point, people on here said she called the umpire a cheat! 
She didnâ€™t, she uses the word about herself!


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Please provide a link.
Hereâ€™s a 3 minute one, were she doesnâ€™t
https://globalnews.ca/video/4436493...umpire-thief-in-outburst-during-us-open-final

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So just to confirm, you haven't seen all of the incidents IN FULL?

I have supplied a transcript above of what she said, I watched the match live and saw it for myself. If you want to see it for yourself there are countless videos online of the various incidents. She absolutely DID use the word cheat on court, the umpire did not and she also called him a liar as well as a thief.

I have no problem if you want to defend her and don't share my opinion re. how the umpire dealt with the incident, but please get the facts correct. She used the word cheat several times on the court, that is a fact...


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re missing the point, people on here said she called the umpire a cheat!
She didnâ€™t, she uses the word about herself!
		
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If that was your point then I missed it because that's not what you said...


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## Slab (Sep 10, 2018)

Maybe I'm thinking too much like a golfer but is the official permitted to overlook a rules breach if he witnesses it?

The umpire didn't write the rules, he was tasked with officiating the match to make sure its played by those rules, he doesn't have any 'essence' to what he was doing
He didn't raise his voice or gesticulate at her, he appeared to remain calm and content to let the game progress after the initial penalty but she kept bringing it up even after she had made her point that she doesn't cheat


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2018)

Her immediate reaction to the 1st Code Violation (for her coach's coaching) was to to say '... I don't cheat; I'd sooner lose...'.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			If that was your point then I missed it because that's not what you said...
		
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Post 64 mate, Itâ€™s the fact people on here said she called the Umpire a cheat.
I agree with your posts as to what she actually said. Cross wires, apologies.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Post 64 mate, Itâ€™s the fact people on here said she called the Umpire a cheat.
I agree with your posts as to what she actually said. Cross wires, apologies.
		
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No probs.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Paul, I dislike anyone abusing officials in any sport. It is a pet hate of mine and I would say the same about anyone who behaved in the same way. Rooney was appalling for it, as are many footballers for example. Tennis has other meltdowns but the thread is about this particular one as it was in a final, it was a few days ago and it was a massive one. It was particularly aggressive, unpleasant and it dominated the end of the match. The official was correct in all of his decisions, tennis people are stating this over and over. She is the one who lost it and elevated the problem. Even a football ref would send a player off if he called him a cheat, which is what she did, and they take levels of abuse that are riduculous without blinking. If I was in charge of the umpires association I would asking for an urgent meeting with the relevant bodies regarding this. Officials need protecting, their integrity in particular.

If you want to even it up then we can always start a Nick Kyrgios thread as he creates a storm most tournaments. He has done plenty of disgraceful things in his career so far, given up on matches, abused officials etc. He gets the fine, pays it and moves on.

Regarding LP bringing her child into the discussion, she did that. She brought it up in her rant. She lost it, simple.
		
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Do you think the officials take this abuse because they  Cant (send her off) because they have no match then?

Can he send her off? If so he should of.
Bet the crowd would not be happy if he did.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hockey and cricket for me so it is the same. It grates on me when anyone in any sport turns on an official.
		
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Itâ€™s very difficult though to dismiss a solo sport star as you have no match.
In rugby ,hockey they can play a player down.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

Why do they take the abuse? Good question. You can ask the same question in football. There are rules there to stop it, they just don't apply them. This umpire generally doesn't take abuse and has a history of applying the rules, apparently Nadal's father once had a go at him on a flight for giving him warnings, so he doesn't stand for it no matter how big the name. Maybe this guy is the Collina of tennis?

The sanctions that are there are actually pretty good and prevent the draconian need for a sending off, although if you hit a ball boy, official etc with a ball or racquet then it is an instant DQ, even if accidental. The system actually worked on Saturday, point penalty, game penalty. Had she continued abusing him he would have penalised a game every time. You would hope the player would realise at that point and they would self regulate. Once you know the umpire is serious and is taking games off you then the penny must surely drop and the red mist will lift. If not then you only have yourself to blame. The staging of the penalties is the balance and I think that works well.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why do they take the abuse? Good question. You can ask the same question in football. There are rules there to stop it, they just don't apply them. This umpire generally doesn't take abuse and has a history of applying the rules, apparently Nadal's father once had a go at him on a flight for giving him warnings, so he doesn't stand for it no matter how big the name. Maybe this guy is the Collina of tennis?

The sanctions that are there are actually pretty good and prevent the draconian need for a sending off, although if you hit a ball boy, official etc with a ball or racquet then it is an instant DQ, even if accidental. The system actually worked on Saturday, point penalty, game penalty. Had she continued abusing him he would have penalised a game every time. You would hope the player would realise at that point and they would self regulate. Once you know the umpire is serious and is taking games off you then the penny must surely drop and the red mist will lift. If not then you only have yourself to blame. The staging of the penalties is the balance and I think that works well.
		
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Spot on - i think for any other player they would have stopped after the point warning but I think her arrogance took over 

She imo prob thought â€œHow dare you penalise me - donâ€™t you know who I amâ€ and she then carried out a monumental strop expecting the umpire to change his mind - the demands for an apology etc and demanding that he announces to everyone just smacks it arrogance and you can see he was cool about it all. She knew the crowd would be on her side and played on that as well. She then went full rant and strop once she realised it wasnâ€™t working and played the Sexism card. 

The governing body have bottled it and she has been allowed to get away with a disgusting disgraceful rant at an official - it reminds me of Maureenâ€™s go at Frisk but the umpire did nothing wrong and I hope he continues to umpire. She shows no remorse after when she should be apologising to the umpire and to her opponent so her actions after are just as poor.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why do they take the abuse? Good question. You can ask the same question in football. There are rules there to stop it, they just don't apply them. This umpire generally doesn't take abuse and has a history of applying the rules, apparently Nadal's father once had a go at him on a flight for giving him warnings, so he doesn't stand for it no matter how big the name. Maybe this guy is the Collina of tennis?

The sanctions that are there are actually pretty good and prevent the draconian need for a sending off, although if you hit a ball boy, official etc with a ball or racquet then it is an instant DQ, even if accidental. The system actually worked on Saturday, point penalty, game penalty. Had she continued abusing him he would have penalised a game every time. You would hope the player would realise at that point and they would self regulate. Once you know the umpire is serious and is taking games off you then the penny must surely drop and the red mist will lift. If not then you only have yourself to blame. The staging of the penalties is the balance and I think that works well.
		
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Canâ€™t really see that it does work!
Giving game pens just allows the player to abuse the ref as long as she takes the penalties.
If sheâ€™s 5-0 up in a set she could get four game penalties and still win 6-4.
That just seems odd ( I am not really a tennis fan).
As soon as you call a football ref a theif and a liar you would get an early bath it seems tennis will tolerate that.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 10, 2018)

I look forward to other players complaining about S Williams actions that have resulted in all umpires now getting strict.


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## Robster59 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			In your opinion.
		
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Mine too


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why do they take the abuse? Good question. You can ask the same question in football. There are rules there to stop it, they just don't apply them. This umpire generally doesn't take abuse and has a history of applying the rules, apparently Nadal's father once had a go at him on a flight for giving him warnings, so he doesn't stand for it no matter how big the name. Maybe this guy is the Collina of tennis?

The sanctions that are there are actually pretty good and prevent the draconian need for a sending off, although if you hit a ball boy, official etc with a ball or racquet then it is an instant DQ, even if accidental. The system actually worked on Saturday, point penalty, game penalty. Had she continued abusing him he would have penalised a game every time. You would hope the player would realise at that point and they would self regulate. Once you know the umpire is serious and is taking games off you then the penny must surely drop and the red mist will lift. If not then you only have yourself to blame. The staging of the penalties is the balance and I think that works well.
		
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I love the self righteous posting about this umpire, itâ€™s a pity we donâ€™t have this same level of support for referees when watching football, itâ€™s a proven fact this guy is inconsistent facts donâ€™t back up your point so Iâ€™m surprised you can equate him to Colina.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			Mine too
		
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You said she called him a cheat, was that just an opinion as well ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I look forward to other players complaining about S Williams actions that have resulted in all umpires now getting strict.
		
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Surely like Football, itâ€™s consistencey they want?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 10, 2018)

Williams said she had not cheated and never received on-court coaching but Mouratoglou admitted in a post-match interview he had coached and suggested it was widespread within the game.

So she did cheat then !


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I love the self righteous posting about this umpire, itâ€™s a pity we donâ€™t have this same level of support for referees when watching football, itâ€™s a proven fact this guy is inconsistent facts donâ€™t back up your point so Iâ€™m surprised you can equate him to Colina.
		
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I have always supported refs or officials in any sport. I'm happy to have posts checked on that front.  I have commented previously about in their face vitriol from players and also cheap shots from managers. Officials should never be subjected to abuse.

I don't care enough about tennis as a sport to follow what an umpire does over the years but the fact that he has been given a grand slam final suggests he is highly regarded. Tennis commentators and journalists have also spoken well of him and THEY have said he is someone who will follow through with the rules in these situations. Collina got things wrong, Blimey as Everton fans we know that, but he wouldn't bottle a big decision. That is why I compared him.

It's one we will have to disagree on.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I have always supported refs or officials in any sport. I'm happy to have posts checked on that front.  I have commented previously about in their face vitriol from players and also cheap shots from managers. Officials should never be subjected to abuse.

I don't care enough about tennis as a sport to follow what an umpire does over the years but the fact that he has been given a grand slam final suggests he is highly regarded. Tennis commentators and journalists have also spoken well of him and THEY have said he is someone who will follow through with the rules in these situations. Collina got things wrong, Blimey as Everton fans we know that, but he wouldn't bottle a big decision. That is why I compared him.

It's one we will have to disagree on.
		
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Heâ€™s born sworn at and abused by male tennis players in the past and took no action, itâ€™s not about â€œbottleâ€ itâ€™s about fairness and consistencey.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s born sworn at and abused by male tennis players in the past and took no action, itâ€™s not about â€œbottleâ€ itâ€™s about fairness and consistencey.
		
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Iâ€™ve seen quite a few players have little pops and umpires. Most take a bit of stick, but hers was a meltdown. If he hadnt docked her she would likely still be ranting now. 
Her actions were appalling and whether she wants to blame sexism or not. The initial transgression has been admitted by the coach and thatâ€™s what set her off.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s born sworn at and abused by male tennis players in the past and took no action, itâ€™s not about â€œbottleâ€ itâ€™s about fairness and consistencey.
		
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Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and Kyrgios have all been penalised by this umpire in the recent past for their on court behaviour, in Nadal's case breaching the time limit rule.

Plenty of examples of him taking action against male players.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and Kyrgios have all been penalised by this umpire in the recent past for their on court behaviour, in Nadal's case breaching the time limit rule.

Plenty of examples of him taking action against male players.
		
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Agreed, he has also took no action at times, heâ€™s been in the spotlight probably more than any other umpire, almost coming across as likes being in the spotlight.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Agreed, he has also took no action at times, heâ€™s been in the spotlight probably more than any other umpire, almost coming across as likes being in the spotlight.
		
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He takes action when he deems it is necessary and does so regardless of whether the player is male or female.

So I'm not sure what point you're tying to make.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 10, 2018)

For me the discussion about the umpire is a smoke screen. As has been shown, he has penalised male players. So sexism isnâ€™t the reason for his actions. 

Any ref/umpire may be inconsistent, but the rules arenâ€™t. If you break them which she (her team) did. The you canâ€™t complain about the consequences.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/9/10/17837598/serena-williams-us-open-umpire-carlos-ramos


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			He takes action when he deems it is necessary and does so regardless of whether the player is male or female.

So I'm not sure what point you're tying to make.
		
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The link above does far better than I ever could.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			For me the discussion about the umpire is a smoke screen. As has been shown, he has penalised male players. So sexism isnâ€™t the reason for his actions.

Any ref/umpire may be inconsistent, but the rules arenâ€™t. If you break them which she (her team) did. The you canâ€™t complain about the consequences.
		
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Thatâ€™s fine mate, itâ€™s a discussion and healthy debate, we see things differently.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			The link above does far better than I ever could.
		
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Not sure what point you think it proves, but it adds absolutely NOTHING to any argument that the umpire did anything other than apply the rules as he should do and the penalties he handed out were spot on.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Not sure what point you think it proves, but it adds absolutely NOTHING to any argument that the umpire did anything other than apply the rules as he should do and the penalties he handed out were spot on.
		
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Iâ€™m not trying to prove anything, I just donâ€™t believe the Umpire is â€œcleanâ€ in all this, as in the article heâ€™s handled these situations differently in the past.
When she gets the first warning, itâ€™s difficult to hear properly but he seems to accept she didnâ€™t see the hand signals and she thanks him.
He, like her, could of handled the situation better imo, the WTA and USLTA coming out and supporting her says a lot for me, if it was so clear cut I donâ€™t think they would of.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s fine mate, itâ€™s a discussion and healthy debate, we see things differently.
		
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I accept she can feel hard done by, a bit like getting done for doing 75 on the motorway when you know full well loads get away with doing 100.... But at the same time, if you break a rule then you have to accept your consequences irrespective of whatâ€™s happened to others in the past. 

Having read the link, Iâ€™m not sure the point the writer is making. Itâ€™s obviously written by a fan as they start off by building up her character refereeing her childâ€™s birth etc, which has no relevance to the points being Discussed.

From what I can see, the main point is that itâ€™s all his fault for having the audacity to charge her with coaching, but for me the responsibility is with the player. To use a footballing analogy, Itâ€™s a bit like a player complaining they get sent off for taking their shirt off after scoring a goal when on a yellow. Or hacking a player down after they were wrongly yellow carded in the first half. The player has to manage their game. 

Once she had the code violation for coaching. Whether she agrees or not. She must know that a second violation will cost her a a point and a third would result in a game. Did all the men that apparently abused him, do so after one or two previous violations?


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m not trying to prove anything, I just donâ€™t believe the Umpire is â€œcleanâ€ in all this, as in the article heâ€™s handled these situations differently in the past.
When she gets the first warning, itâ€™s difficult to hear properly but he seems to accept she didnâ€™t see the hand signals and she thanks him.
He, like her, could of handled the situation better imo, the WTA and USLTA coming out and supporting her says a lot for me, if it was so clear cut I donâ€™t think they would of.
		
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The umpire didn't cause the problem, Serena's coach did, and her reaction to her coach getting caught made the rest inevitable.

The umpire is completely "clean" in this situation IMO. No probs agreeing to disagree if you see it differently.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m not trying to prove anything, I just donâ€™t believe the Umpire is â€œcleanâ€ in all this, as in the article heâ€™s handled these situations differently in the past.
When she gets the first warning, itâ€™s difficult to hear properly but he seems to accept she didnâ€™t see the hand signals and she thanks him.
He, like her, could of handled the situation better imo, the WTA and USLTA coming out and supporting her says a lot for me, if it was so clear cut I donâ€™t think they would of.
		
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Sheâ€™s the face of womenâ€™s tennis. She is more important than anything else to the game. I think, just like in all other sports. Certain players get away with things as the authorities are scared. In this case Iâ€™d say the support sheâ€™s receiving just shows the associations think sheâ€™s more important to the game than the umpire is. 

Which tbf is probably true. But it does make a mockery of having umpires. May as well domaway with em and use Hawkeye for it all.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)




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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			I accept she can feel hard done by, a bit like getting done for doing 75 on the motorway when you know full well loads get away with doing 100.... But at the same time, if you break a rule then you have to accept your consequences irrespective of whatâ€™s happened to others in the past.

Having read the link, Iâ€™m not sure the point the writer is making. Itâ€™s obviously written by a fan as they start off by building up her character refereeing her childâ€™s birth etc, which has no relevance to the points being Discussed.

From what I can see, the main point is that itâ€™s all his fault for having the audacity to charge her with coaching, but for me the responsibility is with the player. To use a footballing analogy, Itâ€™s a bit like a player complaining they get sent off for taking their shirt off after scoring a goal when on a yellow. Or hacking a player down after they were wrongly yellow carded in the first half. The player has to manage their game.

Once she had the code violation for coaching. Whether she agrees or not. She must know that a second violation will cost her a a point and a third would result in a game. Did all the men that apparently abused him, do so after one or two previous violations?
		
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The article gives an example of how the umpire dealt with Djokovic in a similar situation and didnâ€™t apply a sanction.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			The article gives an example of how the umpire dealt with Djokovic in a similar situation and didnâ€™t apply a sanction.
		
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He did apply a sanction to Djokovic in the example given. As it was Djokovic's first code violation, he got a warning as per the rules. Serena's first offence was for her coach coaching during the match.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			The article gives an example of how the umpire dealt with Djokovic in a similar situation and didnâ€™t apply a sanction.
		
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Not quite the same though imo. 
Djokovic got a warning for the coaching, and argued his case without further penalty. 

Williams got a warming, argued a little with no further action. 
Then broke racquet got next warning. 
The has the meltdown and loses a game.  

If sheâ€™d stoped after the intial warning, or hadnâ€™t broken her racquet they may be compariable. Letâ€™s be honest, weâ€™ve all seen the red mist at some point. Sheâ€™s now just looking for excuses and sexism is an easy one. But just for one second, letâ€™s say i accept he treated her worse than Djokovic. That simply means that he was lucky, it doesnâ€™t mean that she should have been treated any better. 

She got what her actions deserved. If others should also have been given the same treatment is a fair point, but it doesnâ€™t excuse her at all.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Not quite the same though imo.
Djokovic got a warning for the coaching, and argued his case without further penalty.

Williams got a warming, argued a little with no further action.
Then broke racquet got next warning.
The has the meltdown and loses a game. 

If sheâ€™d stoped after the intial warning, or hadnâ€™t broken her racquet they may be compariable. Letâ€™s be honest, weâ€™ve all seen the red mist at some point. Sheâ€™s now just looking for excuses and sexism is an easy one. But just for one second, letâ€™s say i accept he treated her worse than Djokovic. That simply means that he was lucky, it doesnâ€™t mean that she should have been treated any better.

She got what her actions deserved. If others should also have been given the same treatment is a fair point, but it doesnâ€™t excuse her at all.
		
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Iâ€™ve never once excused her, have a look at my first posts.
The point for me is about inconsistencies from this umpire, Djokovic didnâ€™t receive a warning for the argument, his rant wasnâ€™t seen as abuse, the Umpire let him blow off steam, this time he decides heâ€™s abused and gives her a game punishment.


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## ger147 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve never once excused her, have a look at my first posts.
The point for me is about inconsistencies from this umpire, Djokovic didnâ€™t receive a warning for the argument, his rant wasnâ€™t seen as abuse, the Umpire let him blow off steam, this time he decides heâ€™s abused and gives her a game punishment.
		
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He did exactly the same with Serena. She had a right good moan at him after she was given the warning for coaching. The umpire let it go and no more warnings were given at that point. It was a few games after when the raquet smashing happened and she got her 2nd code violation and she then had her melt down, went on and on and on at the umpire and crossed the line for me, and it seems the umpire when she called him a liar and a thief for applying the rules. Djokovic did nothing like that and so of course did not suffer the same fate.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve never once excused her, have a look at my first posts.
The point for me is about inconsistencies from this umpire, Djokovic didnâ€™t receive a warning for the argument, his rant wasnâ€™t seen as abuse, the Umpire let him blow off steam, this time he decides heâ€™s abused and gives her a game punishment.
		
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The arcticle says Djokovic complained â€œlike she didâ€, but unless he broke a racquet as well then they arenâ€™t the same. She grumbled after the intial warming for coaching and he didnâ€™t penalise her there and then (like Djokovic) Once she breaks a racquet and then continues to go off on one, he obviously decided eniugh was enough. If he hadnâ€™t giving docked her a game, or apologised what would of happened next?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2018)

A bit of sense from martina

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.html


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A bit of sense from martina

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.html

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Funnily enough I had similar thoughts when this first kicked off but then got distracted on other issues. In effect Navratilova is saying do you want equality if equality means poorer behaviour? Do you want to be part of a race to the bottom? Surely be better than that. 

It was in her post match press conference that Williams seemed to want to be able to abuse umpires in a way she perceives men can do. Not a great aspiration.


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## Robster59 (Sep 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			You said she called him a cheat, was that just an opinion as well ?
		
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No, that's an acussation.  Go on to YouTube and you'll see Rugby players sent off for a lot less than that.  And they show respect to the referee.


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## Grant85 (Sep 10, 2018)

Have to say it doesn't look good for Serena. 

Plenty of others have had a go at officials, but she just wouldn't let it lie and ultimately the penalties escalated with every offence. 

Plus, arguing with an official is one thing, openly calling them a cheat is a further step. At one point she said to the umpire 'don't talk to me' then 10 seconds later, she starts chuntering at him again. 
Also giving the whole 'you will never referee another one of my matches' as if she is bigger and more important than Ramos. Very classless and not befitting of the great champion and competitor she is.  

I don't think it is right that she has played the sexism card. She has broken the rules and I think the umpire would have made the same decision with repeat offenders, regardless of gender.


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## Val (Sep 10, 2018)

What is this all about anyway? I thought the tennis season finished in July


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why do they take the abuse? Good question. You can ask the same question in football. There are rules there to stop it, they just don't apply them.
		
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Totally agree with this. Would love to see a football ref get surrounded by players arguing and abusing him because of a decision and watch him take out his yellow card and just show it to each one of them in turn. Five players protesting and arguing the ref's decision? That'll be five yellow cards for your team. The rules (or laws if you prefer) are there and the refs have it in their power to stop these situations happening but for whatever reason (maybe they don't have the cojones to do it) don't apply the laws as they currently are. It would be a quick and easy fix for the refs to eliminate it but for some reason it's never done.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Have to say it doesn't look good for Serena.

Plenty of others have had a go at officials, but she just wouldn't let it lie and ultimately the penalties escalated with every offence.

Plus, arguing with an official is one thing, openly calling them a cheat is a further step. At one point she said to the umpire 'don't talk to me' then 10 seconds later, she starts chuntering at him again.
Also giving the whole 'you will never referee another one of my matches' as if she is bigger and more important than Ramos. Very classless and not befitting of the great champion and competitor she is. 

I don't think it is right that she has played the sexism card. She has broken the rules and I think the umpire would have made the same decision with repeat offenders, regardless of gender.
		
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She never called him a cheat, never, not once!


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2018)

Love it, the woman will never allow the man to umpire on "a court of hers again" arrogant lady.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A bit of sense from martina

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.html

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Absolutely spot on comments from a truly great champion, who definitely had to overcome more than simply athletic challenges!


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## Orikoru (Sep 11, 2018)

She does seem to have lost the plot somewhat. At 36 I'm not really sure why she's come back. What does she have left to prove at this point? Might be time for her to bow out if the pressure if getting a bit much.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			She does seem to have lost the plot somewhat. At 36 I'm not really sure why she's come back. What does she have left to prove at this point? Might be time for her to bow out if the pressure if getting a bit much.
		
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Same could be said for Federer, or Woods.

The best want to compete for as long as possible. She is still more than capable of adding to her trophy haul. Iâ€™d imagine sheâ€™ll be even more driven now. She certainly wonâ€™t want this as her last ever final.


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## Orikoru (Sep 11, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Same could be said for Federer, or Woods.

The best want to compete for as long as possible. She is still more than capable of adding to her trophy haul. Iâ€™d imagine sheâ€™ll be even more driven now. She certainly wonâ€™t want this as her last ever final.
		
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But Federer and Woods haven't lost the plot mentally. Also, Federer is still smashing everyone by the looks of it, not sure he's actually human.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

Woods has had a big enough emotional stress to say he could have walked away.

Federer had a longing period without success than Williams has. She had a meltdown granted, but ability wise sheâ€™s still imo more dominant than either of those two mentioned. Far to early to call it a day. 

If she goes a year without a win, or had another breakdown then Iâ€™d agree she may wanna step aside as she would the appear to have other priorities.


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## user2010 (Sep 11, 2018)

There's a great cartoon doing the rounds from an Aussie artist that perfectly sums up the incident.:-D


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			There's a great cartoon doing the rounds from an Aussie artist that perfectly sums up the incident.:-D
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1039333991118135296


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

Whatever you think about serena & her behaviour, the cartoon is appalling. I expect the usual apologists will defend it, but if you canâ€™t see the overtly racist overtones then you are part of the problem IMO.


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## user2010 (Sep 11, 2018)

Why is it racist?


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			Why is it racist?
		
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Really??? You repeatedly give the impression of being â€˜challengedâ€™, your endorsement of this confirms it. Read the comments on the link & make up your own mind.


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## user2010 (Sep 11, 2018)

I have, and to me it's not racist. It's a caricature of a woman having a full blown strop, nothing else.


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			I have, and to me it's not racist. It's a caricature of a woman having a full blown strop, nothing else.
		
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https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-cartoon-exposes-australias-ignorance-on-race


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



			Really??? You repeatedly give the impression of being â€˜challengedâ€™, your endorsement of this confirms it. Read the comments on the link & make up your own mind.
		
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The comments are split between those being outraged and those not. 

The photo certainly draws on stereotypes of those with African roots, the artist may well be a racist, but itâ€™s a caricature. All pics of that sort are of a similar ilk.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-cartoon-exposes-australias-ignorance-on-race

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Oh look, a paper with an underlying opinion ravages a rival opinion. 

Shock horror!


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

If o


Papas1982 said:



			The comments are split between those being outraged and those not.

The photo certainly draws on stereotypes of those with African roots, the artist may well be a racist, but itâ€™s a caricature. All pics of that sort are of a similar ilk.
		
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 if it draws on racial stereotypes then itâ€™s certainly racist. If you canâ€™t see that you need a history lesson


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Oh look, a paper with an underlying opinion ravages a rival opinion.

Shock horror!
		
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Which bits do you disagree with?


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

Iâ€™m sorry, but a facial expression or trait is not a racist stereotype. 

If it had contained for example chains I would agree as it would have depicted historical mistreatment. 

But a common physical trait, nah not for me. Would be the same if it had shown a black women next to a white women, with one having more â€œbootyâ€ than the other.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



			Which bits do you disagree with?
		
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Well it starts by claiming sheâ€™s been mistreated on the court, which is false for a start. 

It then claims itâ€™s racist, which I donâ€™t believe either. 
Not all observations are racist.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 11, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Iâ€™m sorry, but a facial expression or trait is not a racist stereotype.

If it had contained for example chains I would agree as it would have depicted historical mistreatment.

But a common physical trait, nah not for me. Would be the same if it had shown a black women next to a white women, with one having more â€œbootyâ€ than the other.
		
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Is that because all black women look the same! Awful comment mate,
Which common traits has he used for the Portugese man or Japanese/Haitain woman?


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

If you defend this then either you have no knowledge of the use of racial stereotyping throughout history or you donâ€™t see a problem with its use. If itâ€™s the former Iâ€™d suggest you read more, the latter then your obvious personal viewpoints significantly cloud your judgement


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

I didnâ€™t say all did I? 
The same as if I saw a joke depicting a Scot with ginger hair I wouldnâ€™t be appalled. 
Or a joke depicting an American high schooler with his jumper tucked over his shoulders. 
Or an Italian eating pasta with a bushy mistache.....

Re the umpire and Osaki, Iâ€™d imagine IF they were the focal point of his drawing he would have tried too mock some physical appearance of theirs.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



			If you defend this then either you have no knowledge of the use of racial stereotyping throughout history or you donâ€™t see a problem with its use. If itâ€™s the former Iâ€™d suggest you read more, the latter then your obvious personal viewpoints significantly cloud your judgement
		
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I can genuinely say, in my limited life experience in which Iâ€™ve witnessed plenty of racism. Iâ€™ve never seen a person bullied due to their lip size......


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			I didnâ€™t say all did I?
The same as if I saw a joke depicting a Scot with ginger hair I wouldnâ€™t be appalled.
Or a joke depicting an American high schooler with his jumper tucked over his shoulders.
Or an Italian eating pasta with a bushy mistache.....

Re the umpire and Osaki, Iâ€™d imagine IF they were the focal point of his drawing he would have tried too mock some physical appearance of theirs.
		
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No itâ€™s not the same, the historical context is entirely different. If you canâ€™t see that this discussion is pointless


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

Can you point me in the direction of when a black persons lips size has been used to desciminate agsint their entire race?

If you can, Iâ€™ll happily hold my hands up. 

Iâ€™m not for a second denying that racial stereotypes exist, or that races have been mistreated simply due to their race. Iâ€™m just saying Iâ€™ve not seen the above used for it before. Iâ€™m happy to be elnlightened.


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## user2010 (Sep 11, 2018)

The trouble is, as I see it, is that the professionally offended will jump on *anything* to be offended at.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 11, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			The trouble is, as I see it, is that the professionally offended will jump on *anything* to be offended at.
		
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And those who are bigots use the professionally offended line to avoid debate and to excuse any type of behaviour they disagree with.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



			No itâ€™s not the same, the historical context is entirely different. If you canâ€™t see that this discussion is pointless
		
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Canâ€™t reply to your previous link. I presume itâ€™s been removed due to its content. 

As it was, I managed to view it. Genuinely Iâ€™d heard most of the phrases, but as they were all from quite some time ago I didnâ€™t know of the origins and would simply label them all under racist nicknames. 

The caricatures in the link are still imo somewhat different and the main descriptions still appeared mainly on personality traits albeit beciase of their colour.  But I will acknowledge that I can now at least understand why some with a better knowledge of the subject will be offended by it.


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

I removed a link because it was perhaps too racially sensitive IMO.
Suffice to say, racial caricatures have been used throughout history to stereotype, undermine different racial groups & justify racist policy etc, think the images used in nazi Germany re Jews or the Jim Crow era in the states. There is a reason why the black and white minstrel show is no longer in tv. There is a reason why  jim Davidson isnâ€™t on tv anymore. To hide behind the â€˜professionally offendedâ€™ line, is lazy at best, sinister at worst


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			And those who are bigots use the professionally offended line to avoid debate and to excuse any type of behaviour they disagree with.
		
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Iâ€™d say thatâ€™s equally as closed minded. Itâ€™s not always so clear cut. 

Especially on social media, itâ€™s always a case of your for or agaisnt something. There seems to be no middle ground. 

Imo, just because someone is offended it doesnâ€™t mean something offensive was said, of course that doesnâ€™t give people the right to spout what ever they want and hide behind that.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



			I removed a link because it was perhaps too racially sensitive IMO.
Suffice to say, racial caricatures have been used throughout history to stereotype, undermine different racial groups & justify racist policy etc, think the images used in nazi Germany re Jews or the Jim Crow era in the states. There is a reason why the black and white minstrel show is no longer in tv. There is a reason why  jim Davidson isnâ€™t on tv anymore. To hide behind the â€˜professionally offendedâ€™ line, is lazy at best, sinister at worst
		
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Tbf, I wouldnâ€™t be able to counter any of that as my historical knowledge of racism is clearly inferior to yours. I donâ€™t even know who Jim Crow is......

I agree professionally offended is an easy out, but I also think that some (not in this case) are quick to take offence when itâ€™s nit justified.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 11, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Iâ€™d say thatâ€™s equally as closed minded. Itâ€™s not always so clear cut.

Especially on social media, itâ€™s always a case of your for or agaisnt something. There seems to be no middle ground.

Imo, just because someone is offended it doesnâ€™t mean something offensive was said, of course that doesnâ€™t give people the right to spout what ever they want and hide behind that.
		
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Thatâ€™s just it mate, Equality and Diversity, Equal Opportunities etc, from day one educate you that â€œItâ€™s impact not intentâ€


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

Iâ€™ve had me tea & Iâ€™m off me soap box now. 3 take aways for me;
-scroatie is a bigger troll than cabbie ever was, just a bit cleverer with it.
-as a stand-alone the cartoon maybe ambiguous re sexism, not racism imo. But Iâ€™ll concede this is open to interpretation
-except when you frame it with historical use of racial stereotyping in cartoons, that the fella has got previous & the journos at the paper have links to Steve Bannon. That removes all ambiguity IMO.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 11, 2018)

It might have been racist if Williams wasnâ€™t so muscular..


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## fundy (Sep 11, 2018)

why is Naomi Osaka white with blonde hair?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 11, 2018)

fundy said:



			why is Naomi Osaka white *with blonde hair?*

Click to expand...

Can't answer the first part of the question but the second part can be answered by "Because she has died blonde hair"......

https://pmchollywoodlife.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/naomi-osaka-5-things-ftr.jpg


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## Papas1982 (Sep 11, 2018)

fundy said:



			why is Naomi Osaka white with blonde hair?
		
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Her hair was blonde in the final.
Iâ€™d also say that she isnâ€™t white, certainly a paler tone has been used, but she doesnâ€™t appear as white as the umpire. At best itâ€™s beciase of poor research and he based it on a skin colour he presumed.


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

fundy said:



			why is Naomi Osaka white with blonde hair?
		
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It depends how far the rabbit hole you want to go ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ itâ€™s no coincidence that her â€˜blondnessâ€™ has been magnified


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## pauljames87 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



			It depends how far the rabbit hole you want to go ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ itâ€™s no coincidence that her â€˜blondnessâ€™ has been magnified
		
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Bit like all caricatures .. they exaggerate things


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Bit like all caricatures .. they exaggerate things
		
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Yep, to make a point. In this case a pretty unpleasant one.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 11, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Her hair was blonde in the final.
*Iâ€™d also say that she isnâ€™t white, certainly a paler tone has been used, but she doesnâ€™t appear as white as the umpire.*

Click to expand...

Having had another look at the cartoon I'd agree with this. Osaka certainly isn't depicted in the same tones as the umpire.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 11, 2018)

therod said:



			Yep, to make a point. In this case a pretty unpleasant one.
		
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It doesnâ€™t make an unpleasant one. Only if people decide to see it that way
She is a muscular big lady.. so in the picture you see a muscular big lady throwing a strop. Racket broken and dummy spat


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## User20205 (Sep 11, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			It doesnâ€™t make an unpleasant one. Only if people decide to see it that way
She is a muscular big lady.. so in the picture you see a muscular big lady throwing a strop. Racket broken and dummy spat
		
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Yep thatâ€™s exactly what you see ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ read the thread


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## pauljames87 (Sep 11, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038833436818067456I like this video.. clips of her â€œclassâ€ in defeat through the years 

When she win sheâ€™s fine but man donâ€™t beat her she canâ€™t take it

She keeps going on about being a mum.. start by behaving with more grace on the court to set a high example .. winning isnâ€™t everything


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 11, 2018)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038833436818067456I like this video.. clips of her â€œclassâ€ in defeat through the years

When she win sheâ€™s fine but man donâ€™t beat her she canâ€™t take it

She keeps going on about being a mum.. start by behaving with more grace on the court to set a high example .. winning isnâ€™t everything
		
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So you saw the possibly the greatest female tennis player of all time for 1 minute out of a career spanning 20 years showing frustration, what exactly is the point of this, as for the keeps going on about being a mum, her kid has just turned 1.
Iâ€™m sure we could find 1 minute video clips of Nadal or Murray etc showing them behaving in a similar manner.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 11, 2018)

Has Nadal broken his racket? Has Murray called the umpire a thief?
Cartoon wasnâ€™t PC and was offensive, but many are ... not a wise move to publish.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 11, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Has Nadal broken his racket? Has Murray called the umpire a thief?
Cartoon wasnâ€™t PC and was offensive, but many are ... not a wise move to publish.
		
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Hence why i said similar, Murray has certainly smashed his racket and last year Nadal told the same umpire he would never chair a match of his again.


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## Kellfire (Sep 12, 2018)

I think we should all make extreme statements such as - 

â€œIf you think itâ€™s racist, youâ€™re perpetually offended.â€

or

â€œIf you donâ€™t think itâ€™s racist, youâ€™re part of the problem.â€


That always helps debate. 

In this case, itâ€™s not racist. Not at all. Itâ€™s a caricature of a woman with androgynous appearance. We donâ€™t have to hide behind the fact that sheâ€™s got quite a butch appearance. That physique is a huge part of her success as a tennis player and she certainly doesnâ€™t hide that fact. 

If you think itâ€™s racist, I donâ€™t think youâ€™re necessarily offended by everything. You are wrong on this though.


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## Hobbit (Sep 12, 2018)

I saw the incident, saw the cartoon and have read the thread. 

My take on it all is the penalties given in the match weâ€™re totally justified.

My take on the cartoon WAS going to be itâ€™s just a caricature with nothing at all wrong with it. That was until I looked at a number of photos of Williams. The caricature is just that apart from the lips. Williams doesnâ€™t have what Iâ€™d call the typical ethnic trait of big lips, but the cartoonist has saw fit to put them in.

And that, for me, is when it becomes racist.

As for Aussie newspaper headlines and cartoons, you would cringe at some of them. Not that uncommon but in this age of global media they need to mature.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			I think we should all make extreme statements such as -

â€œIf you think itâ€™s racist, youâ€™re perpetually offended.â€

or

â€œIf you donâ€™t think itâ€™s racist, youâ€™re part of the problem.â€


That always helps debate.

In this case, itâ€™s not racist. Not at all. Itâ€™s a caricature of a woman with androgynous appearance. We donâ€™t have to hide behind the fact that sheâ€™s got quite a butch appearance. That physique is a huge part of her success as a tennis player and she certainly doesnâ€™t hide that fact.

If you think itâ€™s racist, I donâ€™t think youâ€™re necessarily offended by everything. You are wrong on this though.
		
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Thank god she wasnâ€™t wearing a poppy!


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## user2010 (Sep 12, 2018)

Still a very funny cartoon though.


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## Slime (Sep 12, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			Still a very funny cartoon though.
		
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It certainly made me smile.


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## Orikoru (Sep 12, 2018)

That cartoon didn't strike me as racist, at all. It simply looks like a caricature of Williams having a strop. If there is some historical racist undertone to it, then it went over my head. I would never have seen that and thought it was racist, it just looks like a deserved bit of harmless ridicule.


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			That cartoon didn't strike me as racist, at all. It simply looks like a caricature of Williams having a strop. If there is some historical racist undertone to it, then it went over my head. I would never have seen that and thought it was racist, it just looks like a deserved bit of harmless ridicule.
		
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Same here, unless youâ€™re actually scrutinising the cartoon and looking for problems.


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## Orikoru (Sep 12, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Same here, unless youâ€™re actually scrutinising the cartoon and looking for problems.
		
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Which I'm sure plenty of people were.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 12, 2018)

Disgusting behavior from her. 

Ban her for life.


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## IanM (Sep 12, 2018)

Cartoons are by their nature unflattering, sometimes unpleasant, over emphasised drawings of people.......that is what I saw in that cartoon.   

How is that different from how other sports folk and public figures are treated?


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## Crazyface (Sep 12, 2018)

An arguement from some woman on TV was that the cartoon depicted Williams as "a beast". Well from where I watch TV when Williams is on, playing tennis or otherwise, I wouldn't argue with her.  (flippin' 'eck, I had to type this three times to make sure it was PC enough).


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2018)

I canâ€™t believe no one has commented on the size of the hooter on the umpire. Is that sexist? You know what they say about men with big noses ðŸ˜®


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## huds1475 (Sep 12, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			I canâ€™t believe no one has commented on the size of the hooter on the umpire. Is that sexist? You know what they say about men with big noses ðŸ˜®
		
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Not true. I've got a big nose.

I do have quite small hands though...


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## user2010 (Sep 12, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			An arguement from some woman on TV was that the cartoon depicted Williams as "a beast". Well from where I watch TV when Williams is on, playing tennis or otherwise, I wouldn't argue with her.  (flippin' 'eck, I had to type this three times to make sure it was PC enough).
		
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As my mate said "I'd rather procreate with her than try and fight her" :-D


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## chrisd (Sep 12, 2018)

Any posts suggesting that the cartoon is racist should be moved to the Brexit thread as it's just as daft as that thread is going ðŸ˜


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2018)

Billy Jean backtracking now and admits that the lady was "out of line".


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## User20205 (Sep 12, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Billy Jean backtracking now and admits that the lady was "out of line".
		
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She was out of line, absolutely. It doesnâ€™t make the cartoon any less racist IMO. You canâ€™t view it as a stand-alone. It has to be viewed through the prism of racial caricatures used throughout history.


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2018)

therod said:



			She was out of line, absolutely. It doesnâ€™t make the cartoon any less racist IMO. You canâ€™t view it as a stand-alone. It has to be viewed through the prism of racial caricatures used throughout history.
		
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I've not made a comment on the cartoon only on the thread topic. I've seen worse cartoons on political figures lately with no comment made about them so I think I'll steer clear of a subject where duel standards may be in operation.


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## User20205 (Sep 12, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			I've not made a comment on the cartoon only on the thread topic. I've seen worse cartoons on political figures lately with no comment made about them so I think I'll steer clear of a subject where duel standards may be in operation.
		
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Only quoted you as it was the last post. Iâ€™m not defending her actions, they are unbecoming of a champion & role model. My issue is with the lazy, racial stereotyping in the cartoon. Iâ€™d feel the same if we were discussing the Jewish caricature that corbyn recently endorsed or any other racial group. This kind of commentary belongs in the 70â€™s with the black & white minstrel show & Bernard manning.


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## user2010 (Sep 13, 2018)

I'll bet you stopped laughing/watching Tom & Jerry cartoons once the housekeeper starting appearing, yes?
Did you put your foot through the TV and send the bill to MGM?


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			I'll bet you stopped laughing/watching Tom & Jerry cartoons once the housekeeper starting appearing, yes?
Did you put your foot through the TV and send the bill to MGM?
		
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I feel sorry for you if you canâ€™t see the difference
Edit. Iâ€™ve also googlephilled it, as you may have had a point. However, the character was removed because the â€˜stereotype didnâ€™t fit with a modern view of the worldâ€™ ........in 1952 ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ anything more current?


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## Orikoru (Sep 13, 2018)

therod said:



			She was out of line, absolutely. It doesnâ€™t make the cartoon any less racist IMO. You canâ€™t view it as a stand-alone.* It has to be viewed* through the prism of racial caricatures used throughout history.
		
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No it doesn't, at all. It was a cartoon printed in a newspaper, a caricature of her drawn by a present-day artist. It looks like her, having a tantrum on a tennis court. That's literally it. She is a muscular black woman, and he has depicted her as a muscular black woman. How else could he have drawn it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			No it doesn't, at all. It was a cartoon printed in a newspaper, a caricature of her drawn by a present-day artist. It looks like her, having a tantrum on a tennis court. That's literally it. She is a muscular black woman, and he has depicted her as a muscular black woman. How else could he have drawn it?
		
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So the standard for deciding what is acceptable is the artist? No itâ€™s not, whatever his intent he has to be aware of the possible impact.
Did he have to draw it?


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2018)

So - was it disgraceful, her actions, not the cartoon.


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			No it doesn't, at all. It was a cartoon printed in a newspaper, a caricature of her drawn by a present-day artist. It looks like her, having a tantrum on a tennis court. That's literally it. She is a muscular black woman, and he has depicted her as a muscular black woman. How else could he have drawn it?
		
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Of course it does. Everything thing has a context, to ignore that is just silly. Itâ€™s not just a muscular, black woman. Itâ€™s a muscular black woman, with exaggerated features that have been used historically to degrade & perpetuate a racially biased view of the world.


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			So - was it disgraceful, her actions, not the cartoon.
		
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Itâ€™s possible to condemn both


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			So - was it disgraceful, her actions, not the cartoon.
		
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Mate, You keep repeating this, please quote anyone whoâ€™s said her actions were acceptable, weâ€™ve all condemned her behaviour.


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## Orikoru (Sep 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			So the standard for deciding what is acceptable is the artist? No itâ€™s not, whatever his intent he has to be aware of the possible impact.
Did he have to draw it?
		
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Well, his job is to be a caricature artist for a newspaper, so in effect yes he had to draw it. If he had to question drawing any human being in case it offended them I don't think he'd get very far in his career.



therod said:



			Of course it does. Everything thing has a context, to ignore that is just silly. Itâ€™s not just a muscular, black woman. Itâ€™s a muscular black woman, with exaggerated features that have been used historically to degrade & perpetuate a racially biased view of the world.
		
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The definition of a caricature is a cartoon drawing with exaggerated features for goodness sake. I repeat, it is his job to draw a caricature sending up something that's occurred in the news that week/day/whenever. And that's all he has done.


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Well, his job is to be a caricature artist for a newspaper, so in effect yes he had to draw it. If he had to question drawing any human being in case it offended them I don't think he'd get very far in his career.


The definition of a caricature is a cartoon drawing with exaggerated features for goodness sake. I repeat, it is his job to draw a caricature sending up something that's occurred in the news that week/day/whenever. And that's all he has done.
		
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 Mate, read some history

I donâ€™t wanna be preachy, but look at this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thec...-damaging-history-of-racist-caricature-102982


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## Orikoru (Sep 13, 2018)

therod said:



			Mate, read some history

I donâ€™t wanna be preachy, but look at this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thec...-damaging-history-of-racist-caricature-102982

Click to expand...

In summary then, he should have just made her lips smaller in his drawing? That would have saved a lot of debate, what a schoolboy error. Because aside from that I don't see any similarities whatsoever. People's mouths do flare up when angry, potentially that's what the artist was going for, but to avoid the grey area he possibly should have avoided drawing them that way.

Many newspapers feature a caricature sending up a news story of that week. Would you advocate that these are all stopped, or simply that they ensure not to feature any black celebrities in future to avoid this kind of furore? 

This is a daft piece of reductionism. People a hundred years ago used caricatures to belittle black people - therefore all caricatures featuring black people are racist. Irrespective of the fact that the intentions are completely different.


Answer me this if you don't mind as I'm curious, given that his remit is to create a comic based on a news event of the day, and that he's decided to send up Serena Williams (deservedly) after her strop - what alterations should he have made to the final cartoon that would have ensured it wasn't deemed as racist?


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## Durango (Sep 13, 2018)

Nothing racist about it whatsoever. For someone to say it is is very troubling imo.


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## patricks148 (Sep 13, 2018)

TBH i'm not sure how you would draw her, caricature or not without making here look like that. She's a big hefty black woman with a big arse


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

You can be an apologist for this if you like.
Below stolen from twitter, then Iâ€™m out 
â€˜
So what makes Mark Knight's cartoon racist? It is textbook essentialist caricature, embellishing characteristics that have nothing to do with Serena Williams, drawing from histories of black women depicted as enormous, violent, ugly and stupid, erasing her identity. I heard an interview w/ Knight this morning, he said he'd never intended racism, which may or may not be true. It doesn't matter. He's a professional, he should know the language of his form, because caricature is a tool that can do great harm, and has done throughout history.â€™ Ref Kara Schlegl.

Itâ€™s a cartoon from a paper with a right wing, diversive agenda, with a history for this kind of stuff, from a country that has (along with others) a shameful, recent history of institutional racism.
Itâ€™s hardly reductionism if this is taking in the bigger picture, quite the opposite. 
You can come back with â€˜he only made her lips look bigâ€™ if you like. 
How would I have draw the cartoon?? I wouldnâ€™t have, because I donâ€™t have a nasty divisive, right wing agenda.


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## Orikoru (Sep 13, 2018)

therod said:



			You can be an apologist for this if you like.
Below stolen from twitter, then Iâ€™m out
â€˜
So what makes Mark Knight's cartoon racist? It is textbook essentialist caricature, embellishing characteristics that have nothing to do with Serena Williams, drawing from histories of black women depicted as enormous, violent, ugly and stupid, erasing her identity. I heard an interview w/ Knight this morning, he said he'd never intended racism, which may or may not be true. It doesn't matter. He's a professional, he should know the language of his form, because caricature is a tool that can do great harm, and has done throughout history.â€™ Ref Kara Schlegl.

Itâ€™s a cartoon from a paper with a right wing, diversive agenda, with a history for this kind of stuff, from a country that has (along with others) a shameful, recent history of institutional racism.
Itâ€™s hardly reductionism if this is taking in the bigger picture, quite the opposite.
You can come back with â€˜he only made her lips look bigâ€™ if you like.
How would I have draw the cartoon?? I wouldnâ€™t have, because I donâ€™t have a nasty divisive, right wing agenda.
		
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Re first paragraph: I don't believe he has done any of that at all. I believe he has drawn a caricature of Serena Williams having a strop. It does look a bit like her, as much as any caricature ever looks like anyone, so to say he has drawn it with features "that have nothing to do with" her is incorrect. He has drawn her as a large black woman because she IS a large black woman, if he'd have drawn her as a slender woman it would not have looked anything like her. Simply a newspaper cartoonist doing his job to the best of his ability. 

Re second paragraph: I concede I know nothing about the paper it was published in. But if your answer is simply not to draw the cartoon for fear offending black people, then is quite tragic and sad in my opinion. There was no 'right wing agenda', the agenda was creating humour at her expense and mock her behaviour, not her race or her sex. He should absolutely be allowed to do that, for you to say he shouldn't is pathetic.


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## Slime (Sep 13, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			TBH i'm not sure how you would draw her, caricature or not without making here look like that. *She's a big hefty black woman with a big arse*

Click to expand...

I couldn't have put it any better myself, well, not without getting an infraction!


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## IanM (Sep 13, 2018)

therod said:



			How would I have draw the cartoon?? I wouldnâ€™t have, because I donâ€™t have a nasty divisive, right wing agenda.
		
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So, sports star loses it and drawing that as a cartoon has a Right Wing divisive agenda?   Apologies, I genuinely dont understand. (and I have no prior knowledge of the author or publication)

Do you think that if she wasnt "black" it wouldnt have happened?  A long history of cartoons suggests otherwise.


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## Slime (Sep 13, 2018)

therod said:



			How would I have draw the cartoon?? I wouldnâ€™t have, because I donâ€™t have a nasty divisive, right wing agenda.
		
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Or a sense of humour coupled with an artistic bent and a job as a cartoonist.
He's a caricaturist ffs ............................ what's he supposed to do?


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## Orikoru (Sep 13, 2018)

Slime said:



			Or a sense of humour coupled with an artistic bent and a job as a cartoonist.
He's a caricaturist ffs ............................ what's he supposed to do?
		
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Indeed, when you break it down to that - a caricaturist who is being hounded for exaggerating the features of someone he's drawn - it really beggars belief doesn't it? Would be like a binman being hounded for taking people's rubbish away in a lorry.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 13, 2018)

I've struggled for a few days with this. When I saw the cartoon I thought it was funny and a good depiction of the biggest sports story on that day. Then I read this thread and started to question if I was wrong to find it funny and in fact a closet racist. I'm not racist - this I know. So I'm still struggling as it would appear to find the cartoon amusing and not a terrible racist slur is to in fact be racist myself. 

In the end I just have to see it for what it is. A cartoon depicting one of the world's biggest sports starts losing her cool and having a hissy fit. I'd have known it was Serena. Why? Because she's black, she wears ridiculous outfits, she often has ridiculous hair, she is massive in terms of the typical human frame (black or white), she plays tennis and she recently was in the news for her behaviour in a tennis match. The cartoon exaggerated most of those elements, as cartoons do.

I can't see the cartoon for any more than that.


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## Slime (Sep 13, 2018)

AmandaJR said:



			I've struggled for a few days with this. When I saw the cartoon I thought it was funny and a good depiction of the biggest sports story on that day. Then I read this thread and started to question if I was wrong to find it funny and in fact a closet racist. I'm not racist - this I know. So I'm still struggling as it would appear to find the cartoon amusing and not a terrible racist slur is to in fact be racist myself.

In the end I just have to see it for what it is. A cartoon depicting one of the world's biggest sports starts losing her cool and having a hissy fit. I'd have known it was Serena. Why? Because she's black, she wears ridiculous outfits, she often has ridiculous hair, she is massive in terms of the typical human frame (black or white), she plays tennis and she recently was in the news for her behaviour in a tennis match. The cartoon exaggerated most of those elements, as cartoons do.

I can't see the cartoon for any more than that.
		
Click to expand...

The end ........................ surely?


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, You keep repeating this, please quote anyone whoâ€™s said her actions were acceptable, weâ€™ve all condemned her behaviour.
		
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Just trying to encourage things to get back on thread. Not my place so crack on debating something that the rest of the world agreed to disagree about yesterday and is now old news.


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## huds1475 (Sep 13, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			TBH i'm not sure how you would draw her, caricature or not without making here look like that. She's a big hefty black woman with a big arse
		
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There's a couple of balls missing


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Just trying to encourage things to get back on thread. Not my place so crack on debating something that the rest of the world agreed to disagree about yesterday and is now old news.
		
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You do realise youâ€™re an English version of Doon 
Never trust a Tankie mate, you know that


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

huds1475 said:



			There's a couple of balls missing
		
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Not funny mate and takes it to a lower level.


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## Foxholer (Sep 13, 2018)

AmandaJR said:



			I've struggled for a few days with this. When I saw the cartoon I thought it was funny and a good depiction of the biggest sports story on that day. Then I read this thread and started to question if I was wrong to find it funny and in fact a closet racist. I'm not racist - this I know. So I'm still struggling as it would appear to find the cartoon amusing and not a terrible racist slur is to in fact be racist myself.

In the end I just have to see it for what it is. A cartoon depicting one of the world's biggest sports starts losing her cool and having a hissy fit. I'd have known it was Serena. Why? Because she's black, she wears ridiculous outfits, she often has ridiculous hair, she is massive in terms of the typical human frame (black or white), she plays tennis and she recently was in the news for her behaviour in a tennis match. The cartoon exaggerated most of those elements, as cartoons do.

I can't see the cartoon for any more than that.
		
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Indeed!

Anyone who sees it other than what it is - *a caricature*! - is almost certainly approaching it from a 'biased/professionally offended' pov! 

That's not to say there isn't inequality in Tennis. But I believe it's 'a lot more equal' than many other sports!


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			You do realise youâ€™re an English version of Doon 
Never trust a Tankie mate, you know that 

Click to expand...

Top insult ðŸ˜


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## huds1475 (Sep 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Not funny mate and takes it to a lower level.
		
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Not really Paul. I posted it as the statement is deliberately open to interpretation.

You interpret it one way, that's not the only interpretation.

Which, i would argue, is the basis of 80% of the stuff posted on this forum.

One person reads/sees one thing, interprets it one way, someone reads/sees same thing, interprets it another.

Before we know it we have a 10 pager.

But, as always, you are more than entitled to your interpretation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

huds1475 said:



			Not really Paul. I posted it as the statement is deliberately open to interpretation.

You interpret it one way, that's not the only interpretation.

Which, i would argue, is the basis of 80% of the stuff posted on this forum.

One person reads/sees one thing, interprets it one way, someone reads/sees same thing, interprets it another.

Before we know it we have a 10 pager.

But, as always, you are more than entitled to your interpretation.
		
Click to expand...

So it was a deliberate trap or to use another phrase, trolling.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Top insult ðŸ˜
		
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Cheers


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## huds1475 (Sep 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			So it was a deliberate trap or to use another phrase, trolling.
		
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Lol. Yes. 

Definitely trolling. 







Depending on your interpretation


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## User20205 (Sep 14, 2018)

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...toon-racism-censorship-mark-knight-herald-sun


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## Kellfire (Sep 14, 2018)

So my girlfriend hadn't actually seen any of this coverage so we sat and watched it all last night, including the awards ceremony and the press conference.

From start to finish, Serena is an absolute disgrace and ruins it for Osaka. The way she refers to "us" when talking about it - horrible. "Stop booing, we'll get through this together". Get over yourself, you classless moron. Complete refusal to accept her wrongdoing and she made the ceremony all about her and belittled Osaka the entire time. I really hope Serena doesn't get that 24th and 25th major.


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## bobmac (Sep 14, 2018)

I don't follow tennis so I don't know, but can anyone tell me if Serena Williams behaved like this when she first came on tour?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I don't follow tennis so I don't know, but can anyone tell me if Serena Williams behaved like this when she first came on tour?
		
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Without excusing her current behaviour, youâ€™d have to maybe read what both Williams sisters went through just to get on to the Tennis circuit initially before getting on to the tour, barriers for whatever reasons were put in their way.
Sheâ€™s certainly had plenty of outbursts in the past, but again, I would say there arenâ€™t many of the worldâ€™s top tennis players both male and female who havenâ€™t.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I don't follow tennis so I don't know, but can anyone tell me if Serena Williams behaved like this when she first came on tour?
		
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She has had multiple issues on tour mainly when she is losing

A number at the US Open 

This is one incident when she abused a line judge 






https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/amphtml/USA/2009/0913/p02s01-usgn.html

She said to the line judge that she was going to shove a tennis ball down her throat - obviously using swear words for effect 

Then there was the Capriati incident and couple years back she also lost it with an umpire in the Final against Stosur 

Plus many other incidents on the regular tour 

She is a spoilt brat who thinks she can bully people to get her own way


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			She has had multiple issues on tour mainly when she is losing

A number at the US Open

This is one incident when she abused a line judge






https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/amphtml/USA/2009/0913/p02s01-usgn.html

She said to the line judge that she was going to shove a tennis ball down her throat - obviously using swear words for effect

Then there was the Capriati incident and couple years back she also lost it with an umpire in the Final against Stosur

Plus many other incidents on the regular tour

She is a spoilt brat who thinks she can bully people to get her own way
		
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Thatâ€™s not answering his question though, thatâ€™s just you pushing your agenda.


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## Beezerk (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s not answering his question though, thatâ€™s just you pushing your agenda.
		
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Not really, heâ€™s showing how she has a tendency to get abusive and aggressive when sheâ€™s losing in big games.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Not really, heâ€™s showing how she has a tendency to get abusive and aggressive when sheâ€™s losing in big games.
		
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None of those examples are from when she FIRST came on the tour, which was what Bob asked.


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## Beezerk (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			None of those examples are from when she FIRST came on the tour, which was what Bob asked.
		
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Yeah I see that but Philâ€™s post is still relevant as it shows she has a history of it. Maybe Bobs question should have been on the lines of â€œhas she always been like this or has it only recently crept into her gameâ€.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Yeah I see that but Philâ€™s post is still relevant as it shows she has a history of it. Maybe Bobs question should have been on the lines of â€œhas she always been like this or has it only recently crept into her gameâ€.
		
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Maybe Bob could send you his posts before posting, that way we can ensure your happy with what he meant to say.


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## Beezerk (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe Bob could send you his posts before posting, that way we can ensure your happy with what he meant to say. 

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ðŸ˜‚ 
Iâ€™m fairness to Phil I imagine it would be very hard to find clips of a very young serena when she was a nobody so maybe weâ€™ll never know the answer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			ðŸ˜‚
Iâ€™m fairness to Phil I imagine it would be very hard to find clips of a very young serena when she was a nobody so maybe weâ€™ll never know the answer.
		
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Or maybe in fairness to Williams, maybe she didnâ€™t.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Or maybe in fairness to Williams, maybe she didnâ€™t. 

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If thatâ€™s true, then surely this outburst is worse?

You mentioned earlier about having to understand her past and how hard it was to break through (which I agree with). But generally youngsters are forgiven due to what you mention. So if it wasnâ€™t in her character back then, then it can only logically be reasoned that she did now (and on other recent occasions) due to a growing level of arrogance, and ot in fact due to a hard life.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			If thatâ€™s true, then surely this outburst is worse?

You mentioned earlier about having to understand her past and how hard it was to break through (which I agree with). But generally youngsters are forgiven due to what you mention. So if it wasnâ€™t in her character back then, then it can only logically be reasoned that she did now (and on other recent occasions) due to a growing level of arrogance, and ot in fact due to a hard life.
		
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Were have I supported her recent outburst? It was disgraceful.
Not the first, male or female, top sports person to behave this way and certainly not the last


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Were have I supported her recent outburst? It was disgraceful.
Not the first, male or female, top sports person to behave this way and certainly not the last
		
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*


pauldj42 said:



			Without excusing her current behaviour, youâ€™d have to maybe read what both Williams sisters went through just to get on to the Tennis circuit initially before getting on to the tour, barriers for whatever reasons were put in their way.
Sheâ€™s certainly had plenty of outbursts in the past, but again, I would say there arenâ€™t many of the worldâ€™s top tennis players both male and female who havenâ€™t.
		
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*I didnâ€™t say you supported her. Iâ€™m pretty sure youâ€™ve said plenty of times already that you didnâ€™t agree with the outburst.

 But I was referring to the above. In referencing her past, it could be argued as a defence for her outburst, which as I said would be understandable if she had a history of them as a youngster, Except when she broke through she didnâ€™t. Meaning her past is irrelevant when it comes to her current arrogance and distasteful outbursts. Just like it does for other stars when they do it to.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			I didnâ€™t say you supported her. Iâ€™m pretty sure youâ€™ve said plenty of times already that you didnâ€™t agree with the outburst.

But I was referring to the above. In referencing her past, it could be argued as a defence for her outburst, which as I said would be understandable if she had a history of them as a youngster, Except when she broke through she didnâ€™t. Meaning her past is irrelevant when it comes to her current arrogance and distasteful outbursts. Just like it does for other stars when they do it to.
		
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Or because of what she had to fight against, and may think still fighting, sheâ€™s had enough and is now strong enough to question what she perceives as inequality.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Or because of what she had to fight against, and may think still fighting, sheâ€™s had enough and is now strong enough to question what *she perceives as inequality*.
		
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If sheâ€™d behaved during the match and then come out and complained I may go along with that. But her actions didnâ€™t appear to me to be someone strong and in control. Reason wasnâ€™t in her mind when she did it. She lost it plain and simple.
Also, the struggles she faced when getting into tennis will Iâ€™d imagine most lie have been against Racism, I doubt sexism is a barrier to womenâ€™s tennis, just further reasons why imo, her past has little to do with this and her other outbursts. 

The bit in bold is my main issue, just because she thinks that. Doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s true.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			If sheâ€™d behaved during the match and then come out and complained I may go along with that. But her actions didnâ€™t appear to me to be someone strong and in control. Reason wasnâ€™t in her mind when she did it. She lost it plain and simple.

The bit in bold is my main issue, just because she thinks that. Doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s true.
		
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She wasnâ€™t fighting on any side of equality in her rants and action on the court - she was fighting for herself and attempting to bully the umpires. She on the court when the incidents happen is only interested in her own gain ( which there is nothing wrong with ) so when she has had her appalling outbursts for me itâ€™s arrogance in regards in terms of she believes her standing the game gives her special treatment and is above the rules

Any explainations of equality etc get ruined when she abuses the female line judge


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			If sheâ€™d behaved during the match and then come out and complained I may go along with that. But her actions didnâ€™t appear to me to be someone strong and in control. Reason wasnâ€™t in her mind when she did it. She lost it plain and simple.
Also, the struggles she faced when getting into tennis will Iâ€™d imagine most lie have been against Racism, I doubt sexism is a barrier to womenâ€™s tennis, just further reasons why imo, her past has little to do with this and her other outbursts.

The bit in bold is my main issue, just because she thinks that. Doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s true.
		
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Of course sexism has been a barrier, how many years did they fight for equality, why was the player done for changing her top?
She never claimed any racism recently, but she certainly claimed inequality, just like the PL and Refs association support our football officials even when they are wrong, thereâ€™s no surprise in tennis when they support their own.
The Umpire could of calmed the situation, could of acted differently, just as much as she could of done a lot things differently, itâ€™s been proven the same Umpire has shown inconsistency when being ranted at.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but lets remember the final straw came in arguably the biggest womens Tennis match in the world and the match penalty came at 4-3 down to make it 5-3 in the 2nd set.
We now have reports of Officials threatening to boycott her future matches, why didnâ€™t they do the same to Nadal who in 2017 told the same umpire heâ€™d never chair another one of his matches, and, upto now the authorities have agreed to Nadalâ€™s wishes.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course sexism has been a barrier, how many years did they fight for equality, why was the player done for changing her top?
She never claimed any racism recently, but she certainly claimed inequality, just like the PL and Refs association support our football officials even when they are wrong, thereâ€™s no surprise in tennis when they support their own.
The Umpire could of calmed the situation, could of acted differently, just as much as she could of done a lot things differently, itâ€™s been proven the same Umpire has shown inconsistency when being ranted at.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but lets remember the final straw came in arguably the biggest womens Tennis match in the world and the match penalty came at 4-3 down to make it 5-3 in the 2nd set.
We now have reports of Officials threatening to boycott her future matches, why didnâ€™t they do the same to Nadal who in 2017 told the same umpire heâ€™d never chair another one of his matches, and, upto now the authorities have agreed to Nadalâ€™s wishes.
		
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The top change incident has been covered, one issue doesnâ€™t show institutionalised sexism. The only real equality battle thatâ€™s gone on has been over money, something which imo has the men being penalised as the womenâ€™s game doesnâ€™t generate as much, so prize money shouldnâ€™t be equal.

When the penalty came is also a mute point, the umpire canâ€™t be blamed for when she decides to have a tantrum. 

Thereâ€™s no point us keep going round in circles though. As far as Iâ€™m concerend there is no defence for her actions. 
So Iâ€™ll step aside now as this conversation seems to have been had a few times on here already. 

Re Nadal getting special treatment. Letâ€™s see if this umpire chairs another of Williams games before we decide itâ€™s only the men who get that special treatment though.


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## Slime (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course sexism has been a barrier, how many years did they fight for equality, *why was the player done for changing her top?*

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Because it's against the rules.


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## Paperboy (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			The only real equality battle thatâ€™s gone on has been over money, something which imo has the men being penalised as the womenâ€™s game doesnâ€™t generate as much, so prize money shouldnâ€™t be equal
		
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I think they should have to play 5 sets just like the men, but hey that's my opinion!


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

Paperboy said:



			I think they should have to play 5 sets just like the men, but hey that's my opinion!
		
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Iâ€™m not to bothered about how long the matches are. The menâ€™s tour is only 3 sets. Itâ€™s just simple marketing. Hence why theyâ€™re are separate tours. If the menâ€™s game carries the womenâ€™s.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			The top change incident has been covered, one issue doesnâ€™t show institutionalised sexism. The only real equality battle thatâ€™s gone on has been over money, something which imo has the men being penalised as the womenâ€™s game doesnâ€™t generate as much, so prize money shouldnâ€™t be equal.

When the penalty came is also a mute point, the umpire canâ€™t be blamed for when she decides to have a tantrum.

Thereâ€™s no point us keep going round in circles though. As far as Iâ€™m concerend there is no defence for her actions.
So Iâ€™ll step aside now as this conversation seems to have been had a few times on here already.

Re Nadal getting special treatment. Letâ€™s see if this umpire chairs another of Williams games before we decide itâ€™s only the men who get that special treatment though.
		
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So youâ€™ve dismissed a proven point on the differences because itâ€™s been mentioned before, you dismiss the timing of the punishment as all down to SW and whether the Umpire could of acted differently is ignored.
And letâ€™s wait and see if Williams gets her way so ignore Nadalâ€™s behaviour and the precedent already being set!
If he doesnâ€™t chair anymore of her matches, does it prove player power or equal rights or undermine the officials? If he does chair a Williams match before a Nadal match does it prove inequality and weâ€™ll all apologise  to Williams.
See you in the future sometime.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Slime said:



			Because it's against the rules.
		
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Only for WOMEN!, No issue with the Official applying the rule, but the rule should of been revoked a long time ago and itâ€™s down to the governing bodies to review and remove, not wait until itâ€™s highlighted on a the world stage!


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## Slime (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



*Only for WOMEN!,* No issue with the Official applying the rule, but the rule should of been revoked a long time ago and itâ€™s down to the governing bodies to review and remove, not wait until itâ€™s highlighted on a the world stage!
		
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Yes, only for WOMEN because that rules was introduced by the WTA ............................. Womens' Tennis Association.
They wanted the rule, they have to accept it.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			So youâ€™ve dismissed a proven point on the differences because itâ€™s been mentioned before, you dismiss the timing of the punishment as all down to SW and whether the Umpire could of acted differently is ignored.
And letâ€™s wait and see if Williams gets her way so ignore Nadalâ€™s behaviour and the precedent already being set!
If he doesnâ€™t chair anymore of her matches, does it prove player power or equal rights or undermine the officials? If he does chair a Williams match before a Nadal match does it prove inequality and weâ€™ll all apologise  to Williams.
See you in the future sometime. 

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Did I say Nadal behave well? Nope. Just simply that the end result doesnâ€™t prove heâ€™s had special treatment unless Williams starts getting the same ref. 

The ref Imforced the law. Whether could have done differently DOES NOT MATTER. She broke the rules, itâ€™s not sexist for a him to enforce them. For someone that claims to have accepted she got what she deserved your spending s lot of time â€œnotâ€ defending her. 

I think id rather not see you in your idea of the future tbh, would probably have no time to enjoy it as Iâ€™d have to apologise for being a man.


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## Slime (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Iâ€™m not to bothered about how long the matches are. The menâ€™s tour is only 3 sets. Itâ€™s just simple marketing. Hence why theyâ€™re are separate tours. If the menâ€™s game carries the womenâ€™s.
		
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The majors are five set matches, so why does the ladies Wimbledon champion get the same prize money as the mens champion?
That's inequality!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

Slime said:



			Because it's against the rules.
		
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At first I thought it was very harsh but it appears both men and ladies are not allowed to change shirt etc on the court like she did - yes men can and do change sat at their chair and I believe a lady can but neither can on the court like she did


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Slime said:



			Yes, only for WOMEN because that rules was introduced by the WTA ............................. Womens' Tennis Association.
They wanted the rule, they have to accept it.
		
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Nope, you need to look back, this was clarified and it was US Open decision, the WTA proved it after the fact.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

Slime said:



			The majors are five set matches, so why does the ladies Wimbledon champion get the same prize money as the mens champion?
That's inequality!
		
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What if the women won 7-5 7-5 
And the menâ€™s was 6-0 6-0 6-0.

I mean itâ€™s not gonna happen, but that for me is why the length of match isnâ€™t a valid argument in the money debate. As you canâ€™t guarantee who will do the most work as such. Itâ€™s simply a case of market values, and in the case the womenâ€™s game isnâ€™t worth as much.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Did I say Nadal behave well? Nope. Just simply that the end result doesnâ€™t prove heâ€™s had special treatment unless Williams starts getting the same ref.

The ref Imforced the law. Whether could have done differently DOES NOT MATTER. She broke the rules, itâ€™s not sexist for a him to enforce them. For someone that claims to have accepted she got what she deserved your spending s lot of time â€œnotâ€ defending her.

I think id rather not see you in your idea of the future tbh, would probably have no time to enjoy it as Iâ€™d have to apologise for being a man.
		
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How sad that you have the inability to debate without getting petty and insulting.
You didnâ€™t discuss the Nadal incident, ie, officials threatening Williams but no condemnation when a man did it and actually up to now has got his way, we have to wait to see.
Maybe the debate has to move on and discuss why and see if all parties involved can learn from it and avoid it happening again in the future.


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## bobmac (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Or because of what she had to fight against, and may think still fighting, sheâ€™s had enough and is now strong enough to question what *she perceives as inequality*.
		
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So she wants to abuse the umpire and get away with it like the men do?
And just for clarity, the US Open gave EQUAL prize money to men and women in 1973, 8 years before Williams was born.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			How sad that you have the inability to debate without getting petty and insulting.
You didnâ€™t discuss the Nadal incident, ie, officials threatening Williams but no condemnation when a man did it and actually up to now has got his way, we have to wait to see.
Maybe the debate has to move on and discuss why and see if all parties involved can learn from it and avoid it happening again in the future.
		
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I wasnâ€™t insulting you. I may have misinterpreted, To me it read as though you were implying I was old fashioned. The see you in the future and thumbs up seemed sarcasm. So I responded in kind. 

If it wasnâ€™t then I apologise.

But the rest I think weâ€™ll have to move on from. Because Iâ€™ve missed the part where officials threatened Williams. I didnâ€™t discuss Nadal as this thread was based on her. Anyone else doing something wrong, doesnâ€™t excise someone else. 

If you want I can name and shame a load of other sports stars whoâ€™ve also misbehaved, but it wonâ€™t change mine (or your) view on this incident. So letâ€™s just move on and get back on it tomorrow on the footy thread.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 14, 2018)

Barry Cowen covered the shirt incident. I assume he was correct. Men and women can remove and change shirts at the changeover, by their chairs. Neither can change them away from the chairs, i.e. at the end of the court. She changed at the end of the court, she had it on back to front. It's an anomaly and will probably be amended. 

Not sexist, applies to men and women just a daft rule.

Regarding Nadal. He made the comment to an umpire, don't believe it became reality though. The umpires association couldn't allow it surely. It was a hot air comment, as with Williams. I believe, although don't know, that the umpire did officiate him again. If players start dictating who officiates then the game is in huge trouble.

I haven't joined this thread for a while but no way do I believe that Williams believed that she was standing up for equality mid meltdown. She wants the right to abuse officials? Crazy. Those comments were attempts to deflect criticism after the event. It was pr fire fighting.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			I wasnâ€™t insulting you. I may have misinterpreted, To me it read as though you were implying I was old fashioned. The see you in the future and thumbs up seemed sarcasm. So I responded in kind.

If it wasnâ€™t then I apologise.

But the rest I think weâ€™ll have to move on from. Because Iâ€™ve missed the part where officials threatened Williams. I didnâ€™t discuss Nadal as this thread was based on her. Anyone else doing something wrong, doesnâ€™t excise someone else.

If you want I can name and shame a load of other sports stars whoâ€™ve also misbehaved, but it wonâ€™t change mine (or your) view on this incident. So letâ€™s just move on and get back on it tomorrow on the footy thread.
		
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The see you in the future was a response to your weâ€™ll have to wait see comment followed by Iâ€™m out, therefore youâ€™d reply to this thread if and when it happened.
Yes you totally got it wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Barry Cowen covered the shirt incident. I assume he was correct. Men and women can remove and change shirts at the changeover, by their chairs. Neither can change them away from the chairs, i.e. at the end of the court. She changed at the end of the court, she had it on back to front. It's an anomaly and will probably be amended.

Not sexist, applies to men and women just a daft rule.

Regarding Nadal. He made the comment to an umpire, don't believe it became reality though. The umpires association couldn't allow it surely. It was a hot air comment, as with Williams. I believe, although don't know, that the umpire did officiate him again. If players start dictating who officiates then the game is in huge trouble.

I haven't joined this thread for a while but no way do I believe that Williams believed that she was standing up for equality mid meltdown. She wants the right to abuse officials? Crazy. Those comments were attempts to deflect criticism after the event. It was pr fire fighting.
		
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They clarified the rule after the incident.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metr...ourt-after-alize-cornet-incident-7894240/amp/

Nadal said that to Ramos last year at the French Open, to date has not chaired a Nadal match (donâ€™t know if it is coincidence or not)

How any of others can categorically state what a sports person at that level is or isnâ€™t thinking is beyond me.
I can certainly believe they are that far up themselves they lose control, but as Iâ€™ve said she isnâ€™t the first and wonâ€™t be the last.

I look forward to the next thread the next time any tennis player steps out of line.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 14, 2018)

I suspect most of us on here don't care about tennis enough to look out for incidents ðŸ˜. This one made the news as it was in a final, it was huge, it involved the current most famous female player. The rest of the time we don't care.

You're right, none of us know 100% what a sports person is thinking but we are allowed opinions. Same as when a footballer goes through a player or leaves one on an opponent. We don't absolutely know that it was deliberate but we can be pretty confident. We have eyes, we can make judgements. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck etc

Monitor the tennis tour for us, post it and I'm pretty confident that everyone will condemn the player unequivocally . Any player who behaves like Williams did will get my condemnation without question.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect most of us on here don't care about tennis enough to look out for incidents ðŸ˜. This one made the news as it was in a final, it was huge, it involved the current most famous female player. The rest of the time we don't care.

You're right, none of us know 100% what a sports person is thinking but we are allowed opinions. Same as when a footballer goes through a player or leaves one on an opponent. We don't absolutely know that it was deliberate but we can be pretty confident. We have eyes, we can make judgements. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck etc

Monitor the tennis tour for us, post it and I'm pretty confident that everyone will condemn the player unequivocally . Any player who behaves like Williams did will get my condemnation without question.
		
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Cheers mate, will do 
Nice to see you have a new admirer


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