# Shoulders too open at impact



## Wolfman (Jan 29, 2013)

The last few range sessions have shown me the culprit to my pull shot ( i think )

Over the last few weeks i have experimented with one plane two plane swings but have returned to me more connected OPS

However the pull shot was still appearing on nearly every shot how ever hard i tried to swing on an inside line instead of out to in.

My shoulders were very open at impact and when i held them square at impact and saw my rear shoulder pass under my chin the pull was gone and straight shots returned as did better contact on the ball

Does this sound correct ?

Not sure how open they were before but it also semed to keep my spine angle in place for longer too when i tried the above.


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2013)

The out to in swing is normally caused by the hips turning too early in the downswing. What happens then is the shoulders follow which throws the club outside the line which explains why your shoulders are open at impact


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## Wolfman (Jan 29, 2013)

bobmac said:



			The out to in swing is normally caused by the hips turning too early in the downswing. What happens then is the shoulders follow which throws the club outside the line which explains why your shoulders are open at impact
		
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Thanks Bob

I thought the hips were supposed to turn well before the shoulders on the start of the downswing ?

So by making sure my shoulders are less open at impact what have i corrected if anything apart from impact and straight shots


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2013)

Wolfman said:



			Thanks Bob

I thought the hips were supposed to turn well before the shoulders on the start of the downswing ?
		
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I wouldnt think about the hips turning to start the downswing. If you do, you'll have to work hard to stop the shoulders following.  It also depends on how much turn and weight transfer you have on the backswing


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2013)

Bob,

1. Do you differentiate between one-planers and two-planers? If so would there be slightly different solutions?

2. With regard to your first post, this is an example of what I meant ages ago about identifying the fundamental cause of problem rather the symptoms of it. It's pretty simple to see _what_ is happening, but takes someone like you to identify _why_. Simply trying to get the shoulders on the target line, without sorting the timing of hips right will cause other issues. However, getting the hip timing right will automatically mean that the shoulders align correctly at impact.

BTW. I would have thought that casting was a fairly common contributor to out-to-in swings too. Or have you grouped that with the direct OTT action - as the hips still leave the arms behind. It seems to me that centripetal force and the failure to counter it until too late  - the out to in impact path. - is fairly close to the root cause, but is not the fundamental one as that centripetal force was generated the torque of hips, torso, shoulders and arms. Any thoughts?


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## Wolfman (Jan 29, 2013)

Would the same result be the shoulders going lead shoulder up / back shoulder down instead of rear shoulder moving towards the target line start  downswing

This was more the feeling i had left side going up right side going down instead of shoulders turning which stopped them being too open at impact and the club on an outside path


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Bob,

1. Do you differentiate between one-planers and two-planers? If so would there be slightly different solutions?

2. With regard to your first post, this is an example of what I meant ages ago about identifying the fundamental cause of problem rather the symptoms of it. It's pretty simple to see _what_ is happening, but takes someone like you to identify _why_. Simply trying to get the shoulders on the target line, without sorting the timing of hips right will cause other issues. However, getting the hip timing right will automatically mean that the shoulders align correctly at impact.

BTW. I would have thought that casting was a fairly common contributor to out-to-in swings too. Or have you grouped that with the direct OTT action - as the hips still leave the arms behind. It seems to me that centripetal force and the failure to counter it until too late  - the out to in impact path. - is fairly close to the root cause, but is not the fundamental one as that centripetal force was generated the torque of hips, torso, shoulders and arms. Any thoughts?
		
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If I remember correctly, Wolfman is still a high h/cap so keeping the advice very simple, very clear and easy to remember is always my aim.


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2013)

Wolfman said:



			Would the same result be the shoulders going lead shoulder up / back shoulder down instead of rear shoulder moving towards the target line start  downswing

This was more the feeling i had left side going up right side going down instead of shoulders turning which stopped them being too open at impact and the club on an outside path
		
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If your shoulders normally spin out at the start of the d/swing, that is what you will feel. The shoulders will feel like they are tilting more than turning towards the golf ball. But you shouldn't have to try and do it, it should happen as a result of a better change of direction from the back to the down swing.


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2013)

bobmac said:



			If I remember correctly, Wolfman is still a high h/cap so keeping the advice very simple, very clear and easy to remember is always my aim.
		
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That didn't answer my questions. Can you do so? A PM might keep this thread tidier.

Keeping it simple strikes me as a good idea whatever the level.


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			That didn't answer my questions. Can you do so? A PM might keep this thread tidier.
		
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Not tonight, it's wine time and I never mix wine with the forum as it can lead to misunderstandings


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## Wolfman (Jan 29, 2013)

Its true i am a high hcp and wish i wasnt hence the desire to improve

My aim is this year to drop if not i think i will call it a day and look for a simpler hobby !! 

Thanks for the explanation guys, simple is always good to save total confusion


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Not tonight, it's wine time and I never mix wine with the forum as it can lead to misunderstandings
		
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So food on the table isn't the only priority! 

It's alright anyway as I'm off across the road for my first Abbot, or similar, of the year!


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## JustOne (Jan 30, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			BTW. I would have thought that casting was a fairly common contributor to out-to-in swings too. Or have you grouped that with the direct OTT action - as the hips still leave the arms behind. It seems to me that centripetal force and the failure to counter it until too late  - the out to in impact path. - is fairly close to the root cause, but is not the fundamental one as that centripetal force was generated the torque of hips, torso, shoulders and arms. Any thoughts?
		
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If it's any help I was thinking about making some midnight cheese on toast. YUM! :thup:


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2013)

JustOne said:



			If it's any help I was thinking about making some midnight cheese on toast. YUM! :thup:
		
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Do you deliver?


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## JustOne (Jan 30, 2013)

Wolfman said:



			Over the last few weeks i have experimented with one plane two plane swings but have returned to me more connected OPS
		
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So you were 1 plane when we spoke...

Then said you were going to go to a 2 plane swing...

and now you're going 'Plane truth'?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			It's alright anyway as I'm off across the road for my first Abbot, or similar, of the year!

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'First' !!!!


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## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2013)

JustOne said:



			So you were 1 plane when we spoke...

Then said you were going to go to a 2 plane swing...

and now you're going 'Plane truth'?
		
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Hi James

nightmare i know, 1 plane 2 plane etc etc

I tried both to be sure, 2 plane is physically easier for me but results were mixed, 1 plane was nearer to best results

In the end i think i am a combination of both ! but its back to my original swing and its easier to get consistent results i hope

Your advice was spot on, its my steep downswing caused by turning my shoulders sending the club across the line and steep  resulted in the pull shot.

When i feel like the left shoulder goes up at the downswing start i swing more inside and everything is back to straight shots !

Not sure which plan type of swing but your advice nailed the fault just couldnt find a way even with hip shift to stop the right shoulder moving across in the direction of the target line


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2013)

Have you tried my headcover drill?


[video=youtube;KsrovFJ3o9I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsrovFJ3o9I&list=PL7Uf2W3sfvqYBJ3OUldKvQT7ZWYEmPOyW[/video]


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			'First' !!!!    

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Yes! I was surprised too! Memories of waking up on the road, having slipped on snow and knocked myself out - _on the way over_ - probably contributed.

Belhaven Rabbie Burns highly recommended! :thup:



bobmac said:



			Have you tried my headcover drill?
		
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Bob. Similar (but less in this case) issue of 'symptom vs fundamental cause' as one of the questions I asked you the other night. You still haven't answered.


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Bob. Similar (but less in this case) issue of 'symptom vs fundamental cause' as one of the questions I asked you the other night. You still haven't answered.

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Different people learn in different ways.
Therefor, it makes sense that people teach in different ways.
I know teachers that are big fans of Homer Kelley and have read his book from cover to cover, does that make them better teachers......maybe, maybe not.
You obviously have an interest in the scientific approach to the golf swing. I don't.
I teach by feel, not mechanics. I feel it's a simpler method and doesnt invlove filling the pupils head with mechanical thoughts...hence the headcover drill.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Different people learn in different ways.
Therefor, it makes sense that people teach in different ways.
I know teachers that are big fans of Homer Kelley and have read his book from cover to cover, does that make them better teachers......maybe, maybe not.
You obviously have an interest in the scientific approach to the golf swing. I don't.
I teach by feel, not mechanics. I feel it's a simpler method and doesnt invlove filling the pupils head with mechanical thoughts...hence the headcover drill.
		
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Thanks Bob.

I'm actually rather in both camps. Feel strikes me as much more natural, but I also want to understand the mechanics (not actually word I like in relation to a flowing swing) as well. Classic query to challenge is 'length' and position of the left thumb on the grip! It actually has amazing consequences, but wouldn't be the obvious solution to/cause of the things it fixes/affects.

Both feel and positional/mechanical seem to have advantages and disadvantages imo.  A mix is probably best imo.

And a thought to perhaps ponder with tonight's Merlot... I don't think you are totally 'feel'. Headcover drill is trying to do/not do something mechanical. And isn't the V-Easy very mechanical - though feel will be a result?


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2013)

And a thought to perhaps ponder with tonight's Merlot... I don't think you are totally 'feel'. Headcover drill is trying to do/not do something mechanical. And isn't the V-Easy very mechanical - though feel will be a result?
		
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If I was to teach someone to swing more in to out, I could tell them what to do with their right shoulder, right, hip, wrist hinge etc in the transition...........
or ask them to swing in between the 2 headcovers.
The golfer would then do all the stuff with their hips, elbows, wrists etc without thinking about it.
To me, thats simpler.

And as for the V-easy...
you cant get a more' feel' training aid if you tried.
You set up to the ball, you swing back and you feel the wrists staying firm throughout the stroke. No instruction required.

And I've moved onto Cabernet Sauvignon


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## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2013)

Hi Bob tried the headcover drill

Now getting about 50 yds with my driver cover !

I have tried in the past many of these drills , head cover etc and mostly i always miss the object

I am sure my path is only a fraction out but enough to create a small pull of approx 15/20 yds left of target 

When i sort my shoulders the ball flys straight or a slight draw, i am sure the correct shoulder movement is resulting in a better path

But for me the feel of it results in being able to reproduce so i am with you Bob FEEL is better than technical fixes


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## Region3 (Feb 1, 2013)

Might help, might not, but try....

Stand at address without a club with palms together. Make your backswing with your right arm only, leaving the left where it is.
Swing down making your right hand clap the left one, sending the left towards your pretend target. That to me is the _feeling_&#8203; you're looking for in the real swing.


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