# Unbeflippinlievable.



## bobmac (Dec 17, 2011)

I was having a browse around the interweb thingy about golf instruction...as is my want.... 
I was trying to find out how much info was available out there about the 5 laws for Joe public to read.
Well knock me down with a haggis.......

I wasn't looking for the old versus new ball flight laws but the 5 laws relating to 
Speed
Path
Angle of attack
Club face angle 
Centre strikes

What did I find?
Pages and pages of the old rules about aim left/right, clubface at the target.

Not just old stuff from the 70/80s 

31st March 2009
USPGA I hasten to add  

http://www.majorgolflesson.com/ball-flight-law/

As I was taught the new revised laws, I thought only the old coffin dodgers still taught the old stuff. It would seem not.
An real eye opener.
Just goes to show.....dont believe everything you read on here from the "experts"


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## Imurg (Dec 17, 2011)

Biggest problem with t'interwebbeythingamajig..

Once it's there it's there and you don't have to know what you're talking about to put it there in the first place.


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## john0 (Dec 17, 2011)

Are you bored on saturday nights now that X factor is finished bob?


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## Piece (Dec 17, 2011)

This is one example showing how on earth does anyone really know what is right in this game? I can probably count on one hand how many golfers know about ball flight laws, let alone the old and new. 

The interweb is a great source of knowledge but also misinformation. You only have to go down the range and over hear other people's thoughts; the majority of it is just rubbish based on pub chat. But then again how do I know I'm right?

Today's golf is so much more about technology and that means a greater understanding is required. You need specialist knowledge in all areas. Just take these for example:

- Shaft technology: length, torque, stiffness, flex, pureing, weight, tipping, soft stepping, etc.
- Club fitting: loft, launch angle, side spin, ball speed, lie, grooves, bounce angle, etc.
- Swing: grip, posture, stack n tilt, swing path, club face angle, wrist cock, weight shift, ball position, etc.
- Balls: two, three, four, five pieces, compression, dimples, aerodynamics, etc.
- Golf tips: everyone has tips, most of them irrelevant to your swing.

This is a massive wealth of knowledge required. And who has it? You can acquire alot through experience, learning from those that know and the Internet. But it's near impossible to know what is right from wrong on the more complex issues.

I guess you have to trust what's written by experts and those you think have the knowledge.


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## JustOne (Dec 18, 2011)

bobmac said:



			What did I find?
Pages and pages of the old rules about aim left/right, clubface at the target.

Click to expand...

Welcome to my world, frustrating isn't it?

I've been trying to help people understand the new ballflight laws for 2 years now yet it's still like trying to swim against the tide.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2011)

Problem is it takes some technical know how to challenge the myths of golf ball flight.   We have been given information on how to hit golf balls by people that have great skills but little understanding of what is actually happening.  These golfers say do this but do that and have a distorted view that flies in the face of what the laws of golf ball ballistics show us.

If we followed this line of thinking we would still be concerned with falling off the ends of the earth.  Think of what happens at impact and disreguard what happens with our body in the golf swing.  This way you will have a clearer understanding of what actually matters.


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## wull (Dec 18, 2011)

i haven't read the link but i wonder if they mean target as in target line or the line you want the ball to start,and this can be left of where you want the ball to finish.

this is exactly what i was meaning and i can shape the ball either and it works well.i obviouly aim the clubface left of the flag but i choose a target where i want to aim the clubface then set up my body left of this and this is my target line.

as luke donald says don't just think 15 yrds left and randomly aim out that way...pick something like a tree behind the green to the left of the flag or even further left depending on the shot ahead.

or maybe they are meaning target as in the flag itself........


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## MadAdey (Dec 18, 2011)

New ball flight laws, old ball flight laws. The old system worked perfectly well for a hell of a long time. Never saw the likes of Nichlaus and Palmer struggling to shape the ball. But I also understand the scientific approach with the new ball flight laws. Go with whatever suits yourself. I have managed for over 20 years now with the old ways so a little bit stand offish when it comes to the new ones. I can shape it left, I can shape it right. I can also cock it up and hit a big hook....


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## Smiffy (Dec 18, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Welcome to my world, frustrating isn't it?

I've been trying to help people understand the new ballflight laws for 2 years now yet it's still like trying to swim against the tide.
		
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Some people will never listen eh James?


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## Steve In Spain (Dec 18, 2011)

I read and read and read...the signs of a boring old fart who lives alone! However, I too have noticed differences in discussions...and it can be confusing. 

Where does one aim?


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2011)

Steve, I'll write this slowly as I know at your age you cant read very quickly

To fade the ball onto a green, aim your body left of the left bunker. Then point your clubface at the left bunker then see what happens.


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## One Planer (Dec 18, 2011)

.................... And how do I hit it straight :mmm:


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## Steve In Spain (Dec 18, 2011)

bobmac said:



			Steve, I'll write this slowly as I know at your age you cant read very quickly

To fade the ball onto a green, aim your body left of the left bunker. Then point your clubface at the left bunker then see what happens.
		
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What bunker? It's a bloody tree. I can use a lobbie to go over the bunker, you silly boy!


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2011)

Gareth said:



			.................... And how do I hit it straight :mmm:
		
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Ok, just for you...here's the secret
Just dont repeat it to anyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svDFoBHzM1A


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## One Planer (Dec 18, 2011)

bobmac said:



			Ok, just for you...here's the secret
Just dont repeat it to anyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svDFoBHzM1A

Click to expand...


Aaaaaahhhhhh Now I've seen that It's all so simple


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## Mick47 (Dec 18, 2011)

Gareth said:



			Aaaaaahhhhhh Now I've seen that It's all so simple 

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Of course! I've been confusing centifugal force with something else. You wait till I see that (Know all) prat Yoda


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## AmandaJR (Dec 18, 2011)

bobmac said:



			I was having a browse around the interweb thingy about golf instruction...as is my want.... 
I was trying to find out how much info was available out there about the 5 laws for Joe public to read.
Well knock me down with a haggis.......

I wasn't looking for the old versus new ball flight laws but the 5 laws relating to 
Speed
Path
Angle of attack
Club face angle 
Centre strikes

What did I find?
Pages and pages of the old rules about aim left/right, clubface at the target.

Not just old stuff from the 70/80s 

31st March 2009
USPGA I hasten to add  

http://www.majorgolflesson.com/ball-flight-law/

As I was taught the new revised laws, I thought only the old coffin dodgers still taught the old stuff. It would seem not.
An real eye opener.
Just goes to show.....dont believe everything you read on here from the "experts"
		
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Bob - why is it important for Joe Public to understand these 5 laws and can you point me to somewhere that has them in layman's terms and following modern methodology? Also, as yet I haven't been taught how to shape a ball and feel my swing hasn't been robust enough nor my game in general stable enough to start complex tweaking. I trust Paul 100% and have had a number of lessons which have been getting the basics right and that has paid off tremendously but wonder at what stage things usually move on and such skills are taught? I had a lesson last week as was unhappy with my chipping when loft was required and by the end was almost matching Paul at getting the ball up and over a bush (ridiculously close) and still landing it on the green...so I am adding to my skill set I guess...


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## CMAC (Dec 18, 2011)

bobmac said:



			Ok, just for you...here's the secret
Just dont repeat it to anyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svDFoBHzM1A

Click to expand...

thats brilliant, why cant all pro's teach this way:clap::rofl:


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2011)

Bob - why is it important for Joe Public to understand these 5 laws
		
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These are the most important things in golf.

You CAN worry about other stuff if you want to but these are the 5 biggies 

Forget everything else for a sec and learn what DIRECTLY influences the ball flight.

They are ...

Speed
Centredness of strike (hitting the sweet spot)
Swing path
Angle of attack
Direction of clubface

Of course lots of things will have an influence on these 5 laws
eg
Grip MIGHT influences clubface angle but a poor grip will not stop you from returning the clubface back to the ball square.
Ball position MIGHT  influence angle of attack
Posture MIGHT influence hitting the sweetspot
Alignment MIGHT influence swingpath
Strength MIGHT influence speed

NON OF THE FOLLOWING ARE INCLUDED IN THE LAWS

Shaft flex
weight transfer
grip
stance
posture
bounce
swingweight
cavity back
blades
shaft weight
grip size
shoes
shorts
chippers
shaft pureing
etc etc etc



If you return the club to the ball from a good direction, a good angle of attack and with good speed and you hit the sweet spot with a square clubface, there isn't much more to worry about.

So focus on the 5 laws and stop worrying about stuff the media tells you is important.
And practice
:sbox:


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## SGC001 (Dec 18, 2011)

http://quizlet.com/1619293/laws-and-principles-of-the-golf-swing-flash-cards/

Not checked it for accuracy


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2011)

SGC001 said:



http://quizlet.com/1619293/laws-and-principles-of-the-golf-swing-flash-cards/

Not checked it for accuracy
		
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Wrong


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## AmandaJR (Dec 18, 2011)

bobmac said:



			These are the most important things in golf.

You CAN worry about other stuff if you want to but these are the 5 biggies 

Forget everything else for a sec and learn what DIRECTLY influences the ball flight.

They are ...

Speed
Centredness of strike (hitting the sweet spot)
Swing path
Angle of attack
Direction of clubface

Of course lots of things will have an influence on these 5 laws
eg
Grip MIGHT influences clubface angle but a poor grip will not stop you from returning the clubface back to the ball square.
Ball position MIGHT  influence angle of attack
Posture MIGHT influence hitting the sweetspot
Alignment MIGHT influence swingpath
Strength MIGHT influence speed

NON OF THE FOLLOWING ARE INCLUDED IN THE LAWS

Shaft flex
weight transfer
grip
stance
posture
bounce
swingweight
cavity back
blades
shaft weight
grip size
shoes
shorts
chippers
shaft pureing
etc etc etc



If you return the club to the ball from a good direction, a good angle of attack and with good speed and you hit the sweet spot with a square clubface, there isn't much more to worry about.

So focus on the 5 laws and stop worrying about stuff the media tells you is important.
And practice
:sbox:
		
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Thanks - simples :thup:

Sort of !! But it does seem that those 5 elements being right (regardless of all the other confusing stuff) will be more than enough to play this game well.

I must practice more off the course as love being out there so much that I get less range and short game specific work done. I play on my own and a few balls etc when the course is quiet but need to be a bit more precise and scientific about it if I want to continue to improve - law of diminishing returns and all that.


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## SGC001 (Dec 18, 2011)

bobmac said:



			Wrong
		
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It might well be Bobmac, i did write I hadn't checked it for accuracy; I still haven't as I don't have the time at present. 
I included it the link as it at least identified the 14 principles they are arguing influence the laws. Thought some might be interested in that area.


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			It might well be Bobmac, i did write I hadn't checked it for accuracy; I still haven't as I don't have the time at present. 
I included it the link as it at least identified the 14 principles they are arguing influence the laws. Thought some might be interested in that area.
		
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Sorry, didnt mean to be blunt.
It seems mostly the US golf academes still teach that.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			New ball flight laws, old ball flight laws. The old system worked perfectly well for a hell of a long time. Never saw the likes of Nichlaus and Palmer struggling to shape the ball. But I also understand the scientific approach with the new ball flight laws. Go with whatever suits yourself. I have managed for over 20 years now with the old ways so a little bit stand offish when it comes to the new ones. I can shape it left, I can shape it right. I can also cock it up and hit a big hook....

Click to expand...

I will guarantee to you that the old method does not work, it can't as it defies physics.   Many people have been able to shape the ball and have done it by 'feel'.  People Like Jack Nicklaus taught the wrong method but didnt do what he said he did.   Just because someone is a great golf player it does not mean they understand the technologies, they are not Engineers or Scientists, they tend to use a coach who teaches them how to do it.   In saying this some top coaches like Ledbetter have taught the wrong methods.

The very best way to become a great striker of the golf ball is to centre your focus on what happens when the clubface strikes the golf ball.   If you understand this and direct your practice on making the correct ball/clubface impact then by and large the swing will take care of it's self.  (By and large).

If this sounds interesting then get hold of a copy of 'Nail It'  By Joe Hagen, the 3 Skills coach.  He believes that  people should learn golf by focus on ball impact and not be taught how to swing the club, he thinks this will happen by it's self..    I think he is right.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 18, 2011)

Bob, 

Did you get my PM from last night and does it have any bearing to your rant in terms of the new laws?


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## MadAdey (Dec 19, 2011)

SocketRocket said:



			I will guarantee to you that the old method does not work, it can't as it defies physics.   Many people have been able to shape the ball and have done it by 'feel'.  People Like Jack Nicklaus taught the wrong method but didnt do what he said he did.   Just because someone is a great golf player it does not mean they understand the technologies, they are not Engineers or Scientists, they tend to use a coach who teaches them how to do it.   In saying this some top coaches like Ledbetter have taught the wrong methods.

The very best way to become a great striker of the golf ball is to centre your focus on what happens when the clubface strikes the golf ball.   If you understand this and direct your practice on making the correct ball/clubface impact then by and large the swing will take care of it's self.  (By and large).

If this sounds interesting then get hold of a copy of 'Nail It'  By Joe Hagen, the 3 Skills coach.  He believes that  people should learn golf by focus on ball impact and not be taught how to swing the club, he thinks this will happen by it's self..    I think he is right.
		
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We have had this discussion before on here regarding the new swing laws. Regarding the bit about Ben Hogan I agree with that 100%. I was taught to hit the ball not spend too much time worrying about how perfect the club is in the different parts of the swing. I do not know how I shape the ball if I am using the new laws and just think I do it the old way. I am not saying for one minute that the new laws are wrong as I have already had these explained to me on this forum and they make perfect sense. But on the other hand I am not one those players that spend too much time trying to get tied up in the technicalities of the golf swing. I find what happens is I get lost with how to do it correctly when I do. I prefer to visit my pro who is a great teacher, also with being young he is more open to new ideas coming out. I have always played with feel and can just feel when I have made a bad swing and what happened. Never really thought too much about the club face in relation to the swing path.


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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

bobmac said:



			Sorry, didnt mean to be blunt.
It seems mostly the US golf academes still teach that.
		
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No worries

I got real confused when I first saw some stuff on youtube about the new ball flight laws and thought "it's changed already" but it hadn't and was what I understood it to be. Although it adds a bit more emphasis on angle of approach.

I wonder how new the ball 'new' ball flight laws are?


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## bobmac (Dec 19, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			I wonder how new the ball 'new' ball flight laws are?
		
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I was taught them in 2004 so before then


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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

http://www.ebookbyte.com/admin/upload/Sports/The Science of Golf (www.eBookByte.com).pdf

This a link to the physics of golf by Jorgensen

t's a 2nd edition and I'm sure this is early 90's (works computer doesn't like a lot of sites)


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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

Ok I've been trying to find out about when these teaching discrepancies occured, difficult on this computer.

http://johngrahamgolf.com/blog/pga-ball-flight-laws-dr-gary-wiren/

This guy seems to be discussing the issue of correctness of the American PGA's teaching of the 5 laws dependant on time. They also mention '9 ball flight laws' or something to that effect and seem to suggest this may have been where some confusion crept in.

Does anyone know if the 9 shot shape descriptions are American terms or part of the D-plane trackman stuff. I've been more familiar with the terms straight, push, pull, draw, fade, hook, slice, pull hook and push slice to describe the 9 flight paths.

Edit: I also saw in the article it indicating that the ball started closer to the face than path in 1968 book Search for the Perfect swing, so I'm still searching for just how new the current ball flight laws are.


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

bobmac said:



			I was taught them in 2004 so before then
		
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Weird, trackman didn't even exist then and the PGA still hasn't acknowledged them so why would they teach them? Most of your tuition (since I joined the forum in 2009) has been pertaining to the old ball flight laws.

Still, that aside I'm pleased that you are now 'on board' so to speak... now how do we get you to stop hitting a pull-hook around a tree?


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## bobmac (Dec 19, 2011)

I had a long discussion with one of the swing consultants at the Belfry about old v new.
that was in 2004.
I was wrong of course as was the Faldo video I based my arguements on.
I dont get what you mean when you say my tuition on here has been based on the old laws?


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			I wonder how new the ball 'new' ball flight laws are?
		
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Some pros/instructors were saying the right things years ago but no one really listened and it didn't filter down into 'standard practice' so everyone was still taught the wrong methods at ground level. Now there is a new swing methodology that is also scoffed at.... seems you can't win. Strange that instruction should be forced to change from the ground up.. you'd think it would come from the top down.


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

bobmac said:



			I dont get what you mean when you say my tuition on here has been based on the old laws?
		
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It's in the past... I like the new Bobmac! :ears:

It does really piss me off when I see so much proliferation on the web of the WRONG WAY to hit a shot, I've seen Poulter/Rose/Leadbetter/ ..actually the list is endless, all give wrong information. The amount of websites showing how to hit a fade or a draw incorrectly is astonishing. There has been a lot of misunderstanding because of the lack of conformity, people (as I have done in this post) refer to a fade as a fade when it should actually be a pull-fade OR a push-fade, that's the only way to understand what is happening. At least things are improving as more people start to understand the correct way to hit a push-draw, how to hit the ball on the back of the circle etc etc. Thank god for trackman! is all I can say.


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## bobmac (Dec 19, 2011)

JustOne said:



			It's in the past... I like the new Bobmac! :ears:
		
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You still wont get me using S&T


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

bobmac said:










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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

Justone this is the bit I'm on about definition of terms. 

If I refer to a draw I'm talking about a ball that starts right of target and curves back onto the target. I don't see the need for push draw as by definition it's starting right of target (talking right handers). If I was talking about a draw and you a push draw I think I'd know what we were on about. However, I am more familiar with the ball flight laws than these definitions. I've seen the trackman stuff, but just translate it to the terms I'm familiar with automatically.

Is it been defined in relation to your aim as opposed to target?

Because I'm talking target I can aim right to put path in to out, close the face relative to the path; but not the target and hit a draw. What do you refer to this as? Is it a pull draw?

How is the term push draw defined?

Is it just a means of clarification and understanding? 

How was the definition arrived at?


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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

bobmac said:



			You still wont get me using S&T
















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I think I'll be giving it a go left handed, along with learning the game fromthe green backwards and a more traditional golf swing.

Putting was weird, I could putt with a reverse overlap grip, but I seemed to favour no overlapping of the hands and really had to work on keeping my grip soft.


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			Because I'm talking target I can aim right to put path in to out, close the face relative to the path; but not the target and hit a draw. What do you refer to this as? Is it a pull draw?

How is the term push draw defined?

Is it just a means of clarification and understanding? 

How was the definition arrived at?
		
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The term *push*-draw would be a ball that starts right of your toe line with draw spin, likewise a *push*-fade would start right of your toe line with cut spin. Anything that is defined as *pull *would start left of your toe line however this shot is a BIG NO NO in terms of impact (especially with an iron) as it requires an almost zero angle of attack else you'll be trying to hit it after the divot 


In your example above of aiming right and hitting the pull-draw (more often a pull-hook) it is a pull as the ball never gets to the right side of your toe line. When people refer to this as a draw they are not defining it properly.. when they post "I close my stance and hit a nice draw" they are in fact hitting a pull-draw across themselves which is not the same. It goes low and left, often hooks and is very often fatted


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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

JustOne said:



			The term *push*-draw would be a ball that starts right of your toe line with draw spin, likewise a *push*-fade would start right of your toe line with cut spin. Anything that is defined as *pull *would start left of your toe line however this shot is a BIG NO NO in terms of impact (especially with an iron) as it requires an almost zero angle of attack else you'll be trying to hit it after the divot 


In your example above of aiming right and hitting the pull-draw (more often a pull-hook) it is a pull as the ball never gets to the right side of your toe line. When people refer to this as a draw they are not defining it properly.. when they post "I close my stance and hit a nice draw" they are in fact hitting a pull-draw across themselves which is not the same. It goes low and left, often hooks and is very often fatted 

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Ok so if I understand it correctly they're basically defined in terms of where you're aiming as opposed to the target itself.

I'm not sure I'd say one group isn't defining it properly, rather it's been defined differently. 

I can see advantages in both ways, in 1 way you are already describing where the ball finished in relation to the target (and golf is a target game) and how it curved there (although a push draw or pull hook may be more descriptive). The other way would need an addition of where it finished to maybe make it more complete, for arguments (not wanting one) sake he's hit a push draw left of target because he wasn't aimed correctly at set up), however a push draw and / or pull hook may tell you more than he drew it there.

JustOne do you know when these terms came about and if they are american terms or d plane stuff? i ask as I'd be interested in how they came to be. Is it an anglo-american difference or new terms to fit in with the current ball flight laws and understanding thereof?

On the pull draw across themselves are we talking the same thing? Assuming you normal shot is a straight shot, aim right swing normal (out to square to in) which is in to out as far as the ball is concerned because you've aimed right and have a clubface closed to that swing line, but open to the target the ball will start left of your aim (right of target) and curve back to target; but where have you pulled it across yourself as in relation to your swing path as you've just swung along your normal one? I've said it before somewhere mechanically it's a very simple way of curving the ball left. You adjusts your aim at set set up and the clubface at set up and swing as normal. Of course their are many ways of achieving this shape and this pull hook would have a lower flight and not necessarily be desirable in every situation.


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			On the pull draw across themselves are we talking the same thing? Assuming you normal shot is a straight shot, aim right swing normal (out to square to in) which is in to out as far as the ball is concerned because you've aimed right and have a clubface closed to that swing line, but open to the target the ball will start left of your aim (right of target) and curve back to target; but where have you pulled it across yourself as in relation to your swing path as you've just swung along your normal one?
		
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Taking out all the small points (angle of descent etc)...

Let's assume you line up your toe line/knees/shoulders etc square to your target and your normal ball flight is DEAD STRAIGHT.

If you close the face a couple of degrees what shot shape have you got?


Now let's go back and take that straight shot you normally hit and rotate the whole thing 45Â° to the right.. when you hit the ball it will go 45Â° right (dead straight is your shot)... now if you close the face a couple of degrees what shape have you got?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2011)

I think the confusion arrises if you talk about 'Target'   The ball understands nothing about the 'target' therefore it is not a component of ball flight , it is just a point in the distance that you wish the ball to land.    Whether or not it arrives at your desired destination is a matter of alignment and degree of skill in creating the desired flight.


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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Taking out all the small points (angle of descent etc)...

Let's assume you line up your toe line/knees/shoulders etc square to your target and your normal ball flight is DEAD STRAIGHT.

If you close the face a couple of degrees what shot shape have you got?


Now let's go back and take that straight shot you normally hit and rotate the whole thing 45Â° to the right.. when you hit the ball it will go 45Â° right (dead straight is your shot)... now if you close the face a couple of degrees what shape have you got?
		
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Pull hook

Fore as that ones gone 

Interesting, rotating 45 degrees it's not coming back enough; which I guess is your point.

You'd say pull hook

I'd be tempted to say (if you've curved it as much as you've intended) it's a draw where you've aligned yourself wrong, but I like the point as it doesn't fit into the 9 descriptions I've given. Nor would any where you aim where you want and hit a ball that whilst it would curve left it wouldn't do so enough to get back onto target. You'd still get to call it pull hook.

So it could be considered a more accurate way of describing ball flight, but it still needs more info to relate the initial aim point and it's finishing position. (edit that may be preferable).


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			it's a draw where you've aligned yourself wrong
		
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 LOL!!




This is a pull-hook (not a very severe one mind...) The clubface is square and the path is in-out at impact...





If we rotate that right about 15Â° it's still a pull-hook... *nothing* has changed apart from it looks better in the air! (and people will tell you how well they 'draw' the ball)...........  







(NB: Similar shape can be produced with clubface closed and swingpath straight-ish...that's why trackman is handy)


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## SGC001 (Dec 19, 2011)

Ok Well we might as well assume centred hits and a still day along with the other things

Hmmm it seems I would've tended to think of any ball curving an 'acceptable' amount left as a draw (regardless as to whether it finished on target as I defined it previously), anything going too much as a hook. For a draw that finished right of target I would either want to start it further left, curve it more or combine both dependent upon that shots fight (distance, starting direction, curvature, trajectory, finishing position)

Why toe-line as opposed to shoulder line or something else?


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## JustOne (Dec 19, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			Why toe-line as opposed to shoulder line or something else?
		
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Because feet don't move during the swing.


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## SGC001 (Dec 22, 2011)

That doesn't the best reason and seems somewhat arbitary, I would've thought it might have something to do with expected path and alignments of which I don't think the toe position would be the best option.


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## USER1999 (Dec 22, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Because feet don't move during the swing.
		
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Have you played with Rickg?


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## GTO NEMESIS (Dec 26, 2011)

Does anyone know if there is a youtube with the news laws?
I managed to find a pdf but not sure if it is correct:
http://johngrahamgolf.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/New-Ball-Flight-Laws.png


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## SocketRocket (Dec 26, 2011)

GTO NEMESIS said:



			Does anyone know if there is a youtube with the news laws?
I managed to find a pdf but not sure if it is correct:
http://johngrahamgolf.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/New-Ball-Flight-Laws.png

Click to expand...

Heres one I posted a few times: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZ3VYj0oiQ

Heres another simple explanation:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahmKhrK8xHE

Dont get confused with terms like push hook or pull slice.  They are nothing to do with it, it's not the descriptions that are new but the realisation of what actually affects ball flight.


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