# Joining fees



## stevek1969 (Nov 9, 2014)

Are joining fees still relevant in todays climate, i saw my club has stopped it for a period to get people in and  another local club whose joining fee was Â£1200 has scrapped theres as well.


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## patricks148 (Nov 9, 2014)

stevek1969 said:



			Are joining fees still relevant in todays climate, i saw my club has stopped it for a period to get people in and  another local club whose joining fee was Â£1200 has scrapped theres as well.
		
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we still have ours and Inverness and Royal Dornoch do up here, i suppose it comes down to demand


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## IanG (Nov 9, 2014)

We still have ours, but some clubs around here have 'suspended' them.


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## SAPCOR1 (Nov 9, 2014)

Clubs have to be flexible in their approach to fees these days.


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## Imurg (Nov 9, 2014)

One club near me has scrapped the joining fee but make all new members pay a higher subscription (Â£100 more) for 3 or 4 years when the "Loyalty" rate kicks in - funnily enough Â£100 less........
But they've scrapped the joining fee.........


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## stevek1969 (Nov 9, 2014)

Ours was Â£500 which originally was paid in 2 instalments when i joined in 2000, then it was payable over 5 years, they suspended last year for 3 months and got a few members in same again this year with an offer of 16 months golf for the price of 12 if you join now. Its a good deal as the course is always good in the winter with no mats etc


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## Martin70 (Nov 9, 2014)

We had a great deal to join last year - near enough half price for the year and joining fee suspended for 12 months. We could walk away in March after having a cheap year of golf on a great course but they back the course to make people carry on. I certainly will and the 300 quid joining fee will now be spread over 3 years so I'm happy with my lot.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2014)

We still have a joining fee - Woburn still has one and people still pay it 

You can join without paying one but subs is increased


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

They are a throwback to a different time. No place for them these days.


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## CMAC (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			They are a throwback to a different time. No place for them these days.
		
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but they exist with Gyms as well- never understood the concept of paying extra for honourable permission to join and pay a high fee anyway.

However the good clubs still have them round my way, some suspend it for a year but its still there, some reduce it but the balance comes back yr 2 and 3 otherwise current members (quite rightly) will get the hump if you joined the year before and forked out a JF and now it's waived


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 9, 2014)

Imurg said:



			One club near me has scrapped the joining fee but make all new members pay a higher subscription (Â£100 more) for 3 or 4 years when the "Loyalty" rate kicks in - funnily enough Â£100 less........
But they've scrapped the joining fee.........
		
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Is their treasurer Gideon Osbourne?


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## CMAC (Nov 9, 2014)

stevek1969 said:



			Ours was Â£500 which originally was paid in 2 instalments when i joined in 2000, then it was payable over 5 years, they suspended last year for 3 months and got a few members in same again this year with an offer of 16 months golf for the price of 12 if you join now. Its a good deal as the course is always good in the winter with no mats etc
		
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sounds a great deal for a course playable all year- Open regional qualifier isnt it? (or was it at some point?)


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

We scrapped ours a while back. We're thriving at the moment with membership almost full


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## stevek1969 (Nov 9, 2014)

CMAC said:



			sounds a great deal for a course playable all year- Open regional qualifier isnt it? (or was it at some point?)
		
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yeah it was an Open Qualifier when the Open was at St Andrews, now they only have one qualifier somewhere on the West Coast, its a shame as it takes away a valuable bit of income for the clubs in the area where the qualifying was. Course is a good test test in the winter as well


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## Karl102 (Nov 9, 2014)

Ours was Â£600 but has been reduced to Â£100.


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## matt611 (Nov 9, 2014)

<40 years old = Â£1100
>40 years old = Â£2200


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 9, 2014)

No longer exist in this part of the world.


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No longer exist in this part of the world.
		
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As it should be.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 9, 2014)

Joining fees promote a sense of loyalty to a club. More clubs will go to the wall if they are done away with as it's only a short term fix to get members in the door initially. If the condition of the course drops, people will walk and simply go to another local club that is in better condition. All the 'big 3' clubs in my area have joining fees.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			They are a throwback to a different time. No place for them these days.
		
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What's changed to stop joining fees being relevant today?


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Joining fees promote a sense of loyalty to a club. More clubs will go to the wall if they are done away with as it's only a short term fix to get members in the door initially. If the condition of the course drops, people will walk and simply go to another local club that is in better condition. All the 'big 3' clubs in my area have joining fees.
		
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They put people of joining,  that's why so many clubs round here have dropped them.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			They put people of joining,  that's why so many clubs round here have dropped them.
		
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But the ones that join are more likely to stay.


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## virtuocity (Nov 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			What's changed to stop joining fees being relevant today?
		
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I would assume supply and demand.  

It's a tricky issue.  If there is a club with a waiting list (do they exist these days?) or close to full then damn right- whack a joining fee on.  If there is a dwindling number of members then I can see these fees putting people off.

In the latter case, it's clearly in place to ensure repeat membership fees for the next 3 years and beyond.  From a business perspective, it makes sense.  However, if the course, club and facilities are enticing and improved upon then there should be no issue with dropping the fees and relying on a good 'customer experience' to generate repeat business.

One might argue that joining fees fund the ability to offer a good experience and therefore this becomes a very circular debate.

As for me- when looking for a new club I automatically discounted all of those with joining fees.  I would only pay them for a top-notch links club, not a parkland course which shuts in October.  For that, I'd expect a hell of a lot of amenities.


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## NWJocko (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			They put people of joining,  that's why so many clubs round here have dropped them.
		
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Not round here. One club has dropped it but the other 2 clubs still have it, our membership is full. The one that has dropped it is actively looking to increase membership and has been for some time.

Paying it doesn't bother me, I wanted to join and that's the deal. If they dropped it I would feel the same but can't see that in the short term with a waiting list in place.


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## Ads749r (Nov 9, 2014)

I wouldn't of become a member of our golf club if I had to pay a joining fee. Not many people have Â£Â£Â£Â£ sat in there account to join a club. It's a big selling point I think of clubs with no joining fees.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2014)

Most joining fees can now be paid over a certain period so don't need to have the money sat in a bank etc


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 9, 2014)

In my area, there are Broadstone, Parkstone and Ferndown, all top quality clubs and all have a joining fee. All 3 of them are spending heavily to improve their courses and facilities. 2 of them have waiting lists. They all provide much better VFM than any of the other courses which are not in as good condition or have as good facilities.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Most joining fees can now be paid over a certain period so don't need to have the money sat in a bank etc
		
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But why have them at all? For the large majority of clubs in these austere times, it's about enticing people in. Golf also needs to be accessible to as many as possible or memberships will continue to decline, clubs will continue to close


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2014)

Why have them ? Because some clubs still feel there is a need for a joining fee - if people still pay it then they are justified in that belief


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 9, 2014)

I am in favour of a joining fee that can be paid over time, if one is necessary at all. I would prefer them not to be of course.

If possible it would be great to not have them, if I really wanted to join a club it would not stop me.


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## Biggleswade Blue (Nov 9, 2014)

Â£1630 entrance fee here for 7 day membership, with Â£1045 annual subs.  Drops to Â£1280 and Â£855 for 5 day members.  At least, that's what they advertise.  No idea if they are open to negotiation.

Beyond my reach, even with a decent discount, but it is a club with 2 courses and a good reputation and so I think you are getting what you pay for.  Beyond my reach, and that of many I suspect, where for occasional players, there are plenty of reasonable places to play and ok green fees.

It is of note that the last few years they are touting round for members - whereas in the past, there was always a waiting list.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

I understand some clubs like Ferndown etc mentioned in a previous post using joining fees as a source of increased revenue to fund improvements, but too many have just tagged it on and seen new membership dry up. I know several club including my own that had these for a while and it was very much a double edged sword even with the offer to defer for six months or spread over two years. I've known members join places and then jump ship when the deferred payment was due, and the club having a tough time trying to chase it


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 9, 2014)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			Â£1630 entrance fee here for 7 day membership, with Â£1045 annual subs.  Drops to Â£1280 and Â£855 for 5 day members.  At least, that's what they advertise.  No idea if they are open to negotiation.
		
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Worth it by a mile for that place, I was lucky enough to play a round there and I wouldnt hesitate to join if I could find the money.


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## bunkered (Nov 9, 2014)

stevek1969 said:



			yeah it was an Open Qualifier when the Open was at St Andrews, now they only have one qualifier somewhere on the West Coast, its a shame as it takes away a valuable bit of income for the clubs in the area where the qualifying was. Course is a good test test in the winter as well
		
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What have they done to turn the course around. I remember a few years ago you were saying it was in poor condition.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2014)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			Â£1630 entrance fee here for 7 day membership, with Â£1045 annual subs.  Drops to Â£1280 and Â£855 for 5 day members.  At least, that's what they advertise.  No idea if they are open to negotiation.

Beyond my reach, even with a decent discount, but it is a club with 2 courses and a good reputation and so I think you are getting what you pay for.  Beyond my reach, and that of many I suspect, where for occasional players, there are plenty of reasonable places to play and ok green fees.

It is of note that the last few years they are touting round for members - whereas in the past, there was always a waiting list.
		
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Is that JOG ?

Worth every penny imo


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## Imurg (Nov 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that JOG ?

Worth every penny imo
		
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If you've got it....
As a 5 dayer I could possibly push the boat out to Â£855 - but to have to find another Â£1280, even spread over 4 years, takes it into another level.
Without the joining fee I could, maybe, be a member
With it - it may as well be Augusta.


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## Biggleswade Blue (Nov 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that JOG ?

Worth every penny imo
		
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That's what I think, but my point is you have to play an awful lot to get value for that.  If I was able to play three times a week, and if I had the money (both big Ifs) would I?  Yes.  Otherwise, no.


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			That's what I think, but my point is you have to play an awful lot to get value for that.  If I was able to play three times a week, and if I had the money (both big Ifs) would I?  Yes.  Otherwise, no.
		
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JOG, a lovely course but a ridiculous joining fee. Letchworth GC is a few mins from my house, again a great course always in top condition i'd happily  join but even though the joining fee has dropped by from 1500 to 500, I am still not interested.

If your club can still get away with charging one, then then great for them, but it is the single biggest of putting factor when looking for a new club.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			JOG, a lovely course but a ridiculous joining fee. Letchworth GC is a few mins from my house, again a great course always in top condition i'd happily  join but even though the joining fee has dropped by from 1500 to 500, I am still not interested.

If your club can still get away with charging one, then then great for them, but it is the single biggest of putting factor when looking for a new club.
		
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If you are looking to join a club as a long term investment then a Â£500 joining fee shouldn't be too much of an issue. Different if people are looking to change clubs every couple of years though.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			If you are looking to join a club as a long term investment then a Â£500 joining fee shouldn't be too much of an issue. Different if people are looking to change clubs every couple of years though.
		
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That's a valid point but sadly a lot of people seem far more transient these days for a number of reasons and so I can see how these fees would be off putting


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## Biggleswade Blue (Nov 9, 2014)

That is certainly a factor.  It's a lot of money, if you end up moving away in a few years time, but a bargain if you'll get 40 years membership out of it!


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Joining fees promote a sense of loyalty to a club. More clubs will go to the wall if they are done away with as it's only a short term fix to get members in the door initially. If the condition of the course drops, people will walk and simply go to another local club that is in better condition. All the 'big 3' clubs in my area have joining fees.
		
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Exactly.  Left my old club a few years ago.  Of the ones I know who went to another local club with no joining fee, none remain.  Of the ones that came to my current club, which has a Â£2,000 joining fee, I'm not aware of any that have left.  It may put some people off of joining, but those that do join tend to stay.


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			If you are looking to join a club as a long term investment then a Â£500 joining fee shouldn't be too much of an issue. Different if people are looking to change clubs every couple of years though.
		
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An investment? I join a club to play golf at a price I find acceptable, which is what more and more people want.  This isnt the 1950s, its not a status symbol to be a member of the local GC anymore.

Lots of clubs round here boast a proud history stretching back over as 100 years, all have struggled for members and need to adapt to what people want from a golf club.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			An investment? I join a club to play golf at a price I find acceptable, which is what more and more people want.  This isnt the 1950s, its not a status symbol to be a member of the local GC anymore.

Lots of clubs round here boast a proud history stretching back over as 100 years, all have struggled for members and need to adapt to what people want from a golf club.
		
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As I said, many people are now transient for many reasons, not just cost. As a result they have to change every few years to keep an interest in golf and a membership of some description.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2014)

As with clubs that have certain dress stabdards and entrance meetings etc some clubs will have joining fees 

If you don't want to pay it then there will be plenty of club that don't charge one 

It seems to me from looking at the courses the better standard courses still charge the fee


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			An investment? I join a club to play golf at a price I find acceptable, which is what more and more people want.  This isnt the 1950s, its not a status symbol to be a member of the local GC anymore.

Lots of clubs round here boast a proud history stretching back over as 100 years, all have struggled for members and need to adapt to what people want from a golf club.
		
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That's fine, horses for courses. Some people want to be members of top quality clubs and are fortunate enough to be able to afford it. Others have less money to spend on their hobbies and are happy to settle for a cheaper club and others prefer to be nomadic and pay and play different courses.

There is no right and wrong but in golf you very much get what you pay for. In any given area, you will pay more for the better courses. And yes, I would consider joining a club to be a long term investment.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 9, 2014)

Horses for courses so to speak.  If a club can manage to charge one as there is a waiting list then it's their prerogative.  It kind of keep golf at that club mostly a rich mans sport but hey ho.  But if a club is struggling for members or the membership in in long term decline then they should look to see if the joining fee is one reason for this.


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As I said, many people are now transient for many reasons, not just cost. As a result they have to change every few years to keep an interest in golf and a membership of some description.
		
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I am on my 5th club in 6th years and will probably move again after a year at my current place.


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## Toad (Nov 9, 2014)

We still have one, when I joined it was your fee's plus one years full members subscription up front to join.

Now just a Â£500 joining fee deferred until you are offered full membership, this can also be paid over 2 years interest free, there is no joining fee for under 30's.


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As with clubs that have certain dress stabdards and entrance meetings etc some clubs will have joining fees 

If you don't want to pay it then there will be plenty of club that don't charge one 

It seems to me from looking at the courses the better standard courses still charge the fee
		
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Knebworth, Letchworth, Millbrook, South beds, Welwyn garden.... All on a par or better than LBGC , 3 have dropped the fee some time ago and the other 2 have had spells of no fee, but once you have done it once, whos going to pay the fee if the know they can wait till its gone again.


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## fundy (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Knebworth, Letchworth, Millbrook, South beds.... All on a par with LBGC, 2 have dropped the fee some time ago and the other 2 have had spells of no fee, but once you have done it once, whos going to pay the fee if the know they can wait till its gone again.
		
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Wouldnt be keen to pay a joining fee but probably would for the right course, but would have to be somewhere pretty special. I only joined where I am currently because they were flexible enough to allow monthly payments with no joining fee. When I joined I wasnt sure how much Id be able to play because of my knee but theyve now had 5 years fees plus a hell of a lot more across the bar/catering, because they were offering a more flexible, modern solution, with a membership I wasnt committed to paying a full year for if I got injured again (unlike previous courses id been at!). 

Can safely say I wouldnt pay a joining fee for any on that list though


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			Wouldnt be keen to pay a joining fee but probably would for the right course, but would have to be somewhere pretty special. I only joined where I am currently because they were flexible enough to allow monthly payments with no joining fee. When I joined I wasnt sure how much Id be able to play because of my knee but theyve now had 5 years fees plus a hell of a lot more across the bar/catering, because they were offering a more flexible, modern solution, with a membership I wasnt committed to paying a full year for if I got injured again (unlike previous courses id been at!). 

Can safely say I wouldnt pay a joining fee for any on that list though
		
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Exactly, all decent enough courses, but all of them had a joining fee in excess of a 1000... its crazy.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 9, 2014)

Joining fee always puts me off as we're an us and times it by two and that's very expensive golf! JoG would be on our list but not with the joining fees.


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As with clubs that have certain dress stabdards and entrance meetings etc some clubs will have joining fees 

If you don't want to pay it then there will be plenty of club that don't charge one 

It seems to me from looking at the courses the better standard courses still charge the fee
		
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Your club offers a7 day membership with no joining fee as well.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I am on my 5th club in 6th years and will probably move again after a year at my current place.
		
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Why have you moved so many times?


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Why have you moved so many times?
		
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1 we didnt like (well my regualr PP didnt), 1 was probably a bit far away, 1 went down hill a lot. Plus there are lots of clubs in Herts/Beds and its nice to play different places.


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## fundy (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			1 we didnt like, 1 was probably a bit far away, 1 went down hill a lot. Plus there are lots of clubs in Herts/Beds and its nice to play different places.
		
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wheres next?


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			wheres next?
		
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Whitehill


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## fundy (Nov 9, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Whitehill
		
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Remember when that opened, I expect its improved out of sight since I was last there!


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			Remember when that opened, I expect its improved out of sight since I was last there!
		
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Yes its very nice now. In the middle of nowhere though!


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## Tarkus1212 (Nov 9, 2014)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			Â£1630 entrance fee here for 7 day membership, with Â£1045 annual subs.  Drops to Â£1280 and Â£855 for 5 day members.  At least, that's what they advertise.  No idea if they are open to negotiation.

Beyond my reach, even with a decent discount, but it is a club with 2 courses and a good reputation and so I think you are getting what you pay for.  Beyond my reach, and that of many I suspect, where for occasional players, there are plenty of reasonable places to play and ok green fees.

It is of note that the last few years they are touting round for members - whereas in the past, there was always a waiting list.
		
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You're talking about John O'Gaunt, where I am a member. The joining fee is as you posted and can be spread over a number of years (3 or 4, I'm not sure which). It would be difficult for the club to drop the joining fee as every single member has paid it. I have suggested to the committee that the joining fee should be spread over ten years, as long as the member remains liable for the balance if they leave. I've also suggested a reduced joining fee for couples/families but without any joy. We currently have some vacancies for 7 day members, which wasn't the case 10 years ago when we still had a waiting list, but not that many in comparison to other courses locally.

I joined JO'G because I was determined to join a private members club after some truly dreadful experiences as a member of proprietary clubs. The annual fee is comparable with courses like Abbotsley and St Neots but we have 2 courses which I believe are both far better than either of those. As I play around 100 rounds a year I think I get great VFM including the joining fee I paid. The only club I'd leave JO'G for is Woburn - but I need my 6 numbers to come up for that to happen.

Joining fees work for some clubs and for some golfers but obviously not for all.


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## pigmeister (Nov 9, 2014)

I joined JOG in 1986, so my joining fee was much smaller but in proportion to my fees like it is now. I didn't need to think twice about the joining fee, which then had to be paid in one lump and the annual fee. I had a young family then but talking to my kids now they didn't miss the holidays, new clothes, presents at birthdays and Christmas and their pocket money. We all have to make sacrifices if we want something that badly. Joking aside, we have 2 great golf courses, so your actually paying half the annual fee and half the joining fee for each course. The others mentioned above are not in the same class as JOG, that's not being big headed, just the truth. Letchworth GC don't even own the course or the club house. If is a top golf club you want to be a member of, they do come at a price, you then have to decide is that price worth it.


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## guest100718 (Nov 9, 2014)

pigmeister said:



			I joined JOG in 1986, so my joining fee was much smaller but in proportion to my fees like it is now. I didn't need to think twice about the joining fee, which then had to be paid in one lump and the annual fee. I had a young family then but talking to my kids now they didn't miss the holidays, new clothes, presents at birthdays and Christmas and their pocket money. We all have to make sacrifices if we want something that badly. Joking aside, we have 2 great golf courses, so your actually paying half the annual fee and half the joining fee for each course. The others mentioned above are not in the same class as JOG, that's not being big headed, just the truth. Letchworth GC don't even own the course or the club house. If is a top golf club you want to be a member of, they do come at a price, you then have to decide is that price worth it.
		
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The main course at JOG is nice, the one over the road is OK (ish) i guess. The trouble with joining fees is that those that have payed them tend to begrudge dropping them for others, Are you still attracting lots of new members with that Â£1600 joining fee?


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## GB72 (Nov 9, 2014)

I paid a joining fee at my old club and 20% of the joining fee at my current one before it was dropped. I paid them because all of the non hotel based courses near me charged them. My issue is the argument that they stop people moving clubs so often and that is something I do not get. Surely clubs should be relying on the quality and condition of the course, the facilities and the friendly atmosphere to retain members rather than a financial penalty.


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## hovis (Nov 9, 2014)

My four ball group want to join Whittington heath.  The Â£1400 joining fee has made use decide against it.  
The way i see it is they need members but not willing to drop the fee.  So thats 4K of anual subs they have just let slip through their hands.

I like to have the freedom to move from club to club and the joining fee's make this impossible


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## NWJocko (Nov 9, 2014)

hovis said:



			My four ball group want to join Whittington heath.  The Â£1400 joining fee has made use decide against it.  
The way i see it is they need members but not willing to drop the fee.  So thats 4K of anual subs they have just let slip through their hands.

I like to have the freedom to move from club to club and the joining fee's make this impossible
		
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Do you see why your last sentence isn't great for golf clubs? Difficult to budget if the membership is pretty transient.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Do you see why your last sentence isn't great for golf clubs? Difficult to budget if the membership is pretty transient.
		
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Not hard to budget at all. You know member a member will play x per annum. With no joining fees and the same amount per head coming in surely that's a lot easier than a variable that may or may not be on offer in each fiscal year. Golfers should have the freedom to move from club to club as circumstances dictate


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not hard to budget at all. You know member a member will play x per annum. With no joining fees and the same amount per head coming in surely that's a lot easier than a variable that may or may not be on offer in each fiscal year. Golfers should have the freedom to move from club to club as circumstances dictate
		
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No because a golf-club and its facilities, particularly the course, are long term "businesses".


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## NWJocko (Nov 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not hard to budget at all. You know member a member will play x per annum. With no joining fees and the same amount per head coming in surely that's a lot easier than a variable that may or may not be on offer in each fiscal year. Golfers should have the freedom to move from club to club as circumstances dictate
		
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Homer, do you really think any business budgets for the current year only!? The biggest variable in any business is uncertainty, I'd imagine golfers paying a joining fee are exponentially more likely to be members for more than one year than those who don't? Therefore knowing "a" member will pay x is only useful if that member exists.

If Royal Ascot budgeted for this year only with no idea as to future income and, therefore, what expenditure on the course/machinery they could plan would you be happy?

Edit, MetalMickie beat me to it :thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Homer, do you really think any business budgets for the current year only!? The biggest variable in any business is uncertainty, I'd imagine golfers paying a joining fee are exponentially more likely to be members for more than one year than those who don't? Therefore knowing "a" member will pay x is only useful if that member exists.

If Royal Ascot budgeted for this year only with no idea as to future income and, therefore, what expenditure on the course/machinery they could plan would you be happy?

Edit, MetalMickie beat me to it :thup:
		
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Of course I don't but adding a variable like joining fees, especially deferring payments makes the budgeting and forecasting that much harder. As it happens the club has waived fees and membership has taken a significant upturn from a position where we had 70-100 vacancies to be almost full


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## NWJocko (Nov 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Of course I don't but adding a variable like joining fees, especially deferring payments makes the budgeting and forecasting that much harder. As it happens the club has waived fees and membership has taken a significant upturn from a position where we had 70-100 vacancies to be almost full
		
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What!?

The (almost to a 99% probability i reckon) certainty of having Â£X over a 3 year period through spreading joining fees makes budgeting harder?!?  How?

Dropping fees will, short term, increase membership. Getting them to stay is the challenge as a lot more golfers these days do want to move from year to year as can be seen on this thread.

I'd suggest if someone pays a joining fee they are more likely to stick around for more than 1 year than someone who hasn't.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			I'd suggest if someone pays a joining fee they are more likely to stick around for more than 1 year than someone who hasn't.
		
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As I said elsewhere on here, there have been examples I know, both at my club and certainly elsewhere where people have left with deferred joining fees only partially paid off. As this was a contractual agreement when they joined it leaves the club in the tricky position of how hard do they push to get the outstanding money due through the channels available, both a timely and costly option, or do they write it off at some point


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## NWJocko (Nov 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As I said elsewhere on here, there have been examples I know, both at my club and certainly elsewhere where people have left with deferred joining fees only partially paid off. As this was a contractual agreement when they joined it leaves the club in the tricky position of how hard do they push to get the outstanding money due through the channels available, both a timely and costly option, or do they write it off at some point
		
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What percentage if people leave with a deferred joining fee unpaid?

To a degree, they haven't lost, they've gained the portion of the joining fee already received. When projecting future cash flow spread joining fees will, to an extent actually reduce the variability of membership income (anyone prudent would apply a certain amount of conservatism).

I'm not defending joining fees btw, more that I can see how they can help clubs plan in the medium term.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2014)

Clubs these days get the money from a credit company up front and then you pay them the payments 

If members leave they still need to pay the full amount off via the credit agreement - a member of our club recently left before fully paying the joining fee - credit company still kept the credit agreement going


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 9, 2014)

hovis said:



			My four ball group want to join Whittington heath.  The Â£1400 joining fee has made use decide against it.  
The way i see it is they need members but not willing to drop the fee.  So thats 4K of anual subs they have just let slip through their hands.

I like to have the freedom to move from club to club and the joining fee's make this impossible
		
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But that is the difference between a Members' Club like Whittington and a proprietary set-up like The Belfry.

A Members' Club is just that, owned by the members. There are no shareholders or parent company to fund course improvements, new machinery, clubhouse renovations etc;

The joining fee is your stakeholding in the "business" that is the Club and the business model for such clubs is not and never can be built round transient members.


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## pigmeister (Nov 9, 2014)

The Carthagina is not as good as the main course I will admit, but its still better than most in the area and it`s open 365 days a year (apart from snow) when most other courses are shut because of flooding and standing water. We are not full, there are not many that are but we do have new members being interviewed each month. It is different from when I joined in May 85, I had to go 5 day until a place became available, which it did the following January. My mate who joined 10 months after me had to wait nearly 5 years. How times have changed.


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## stevek1969 (Nov 10, 2014)

bunkered said:



			What have they done to turn the course around. I remember a few years ago you were saying it was in poor condition.
		
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What they did do was treat the greens with a treatment that killed of certain things, they were shocking for 4-5 months then came good i think the weather we had up here at the time was a major factor and the green keeper got lucky, i heard he got a rough ride at the AGM the other week, i wasn't there due to work but i knew what was going to be said.

In the winter its a cracking course which plays longer as they put built in astro mats at the back of the medal tees on the par 3s and theres no mats and full greens.


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## Laka (Nov 10, 2014)

we have a joining fee around 1000 pound,,, in our club its an reverse loan with out interest rate,,, when leaving the club, you get the joining fee back...annual fee is about 450-500 pound


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## backwoodsman (Nov 10, 2014)

Whole thing is a bit of a non-argument IMHO.

If a club levies a joining fee and has a waiting list, then people are obviously willing to pay it. If a club has vacancies on a permanent basis, then obviously the subs alone are enough of a deterrent and a JF isn't going to help attract people. You simply compare what you're paying in to what you expect in return - and decide if the sum add up for you. It's sod all to do with being "outdated", "anachronistic", "snobbish" or whatever. It's just one sort of business model - which will work for some and not for others.

We have a JF which is twice the annual subs. And given that our subs are high, the JF is somewhat higher than anything mentioned in the thread so far. But I was willing to pay it. And so, it seems, are the folks on the waiting list. And it all gets invested in the club and the course.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 10, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			Whole thing is a bit of a non-argument IMHO.

If a club levies a joining fee and has a waiting list, then people are obviously willing to pay it. If a club has vacancies on a permanent basis, then obviously the subs alone are enough of a deterrent and a JF isn't going to help attract people. You simply compare what you're paying in to what you expect in return - and decide if the sum add up for you. It's sod all to do with being "outdated", "anachronistic", "snobbish" or whatever. It's just one sort of business model - which will work for some and not for others.

We have a JF which is twice the annual subs. And given that our subs are high, the JF is somewhat higher than anything mentioned in the thread so far. But I was willing to pay it. And so, it seems, are the folks on the waiting list. And it all gets invested in the club and the course.
		
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sums it up really! Good post


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 10, 2014)

A few years back all the clubs in my area had joining fees & membership was fairly steady with few annual resignations & a small waiting list where prospective members had to wait only one or two years to join. Once the waiting lists vanished so did the joining fees. As soon as one club scrapped the joining fee all the others were obliged to follow. The members immediately became more transient. For example, we had 11 members leave en bloc a few years ago and most returned last year. With joining fees, members thought twice about moving or resigning their membership and the club was more of a club because of it. I don't think we'll see the like of this again. If it becomes easy to obtain & retain a handicap without being a club member I think the trend towards "pay as you play" will accelerate.


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## SAPCOR1 (Nov 10, 2014)

I have never paid a joining fee and don't think I ever would.  If I was on the coast and it was a links course I may have a different opinion if I really wanted to be a member.

A Â£1500 joining fee could get me 25 rounds at Gullane for example......


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## Break90 (Nov 10, 2014)

We pay a Joining Fee equal to a full year's subs, so 1150 odd quid. 

Makes the first year a bit pricey, but I was more than happy to pay it to join the club I wanted to join. Plenty of cheaper options around here, but nowhere else I wanted to join as much.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Clubs these days get the money from a credit company up front and then you pay them the payments 

If members leave they still need to pay the full amount off via the credit agreement - a member of our club recently left before fully paying the joining fee - credit company still kept the credit agreement going
		
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Not strictly true, certainly in my club's case. They did away with Fairway Credit several years ago and now handle all the membership renewals up front. In answer to the question of how big a % does this involve, simple answer is I don't know but I know of three people that jumped ship without paying the other part of the joining fee. Whether the club bothered to get that back I'm unsure without asking but it would probably be a long winded, timely and costly process.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 10, 2014)

Then that's the clubs fault 

Why would any club move away from a system that guarentees the money is in I have no idea


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## Slab (Nov 10, 2014)

Maybe itâ€™s not about the golf club & how long a member should stay a member

A generation or two ago when joining fees were far more the norm people moved house far less frequently as adults than they do now, some reports saying itâ€™s an average of 6 house moves as adults now and moving home is far more common in the under 45yr age group. 

This behaviour & demographic doesnâ€™t fit well with a golf club model of charging a joining fee to try to stop people leaving

How many of us could (geographically) still be a member at the first course you joined as an adult?

Edit: or more accurately given how many people return to their roots, how many of us could have maintained an ongoing membership to the first club?


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## SAPCOR1 (Nov 10, 2014)

Depending on the fees charged to both club and members it can be cheaper to use their own Bacs software, which also removes the associated bank charges.

Additionally a lot of people wouldn't pay either a surcharge for paying monthly or want to have a credit agreement just to play golf.  I know that I wouldn't


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## hovis (Nov 10, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			The joining fee is your stakeholding in the "business" that is the Club and the business model for such clubs is not and never can be built round transient members.
		
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when I have a stake in a business I have to have some sort of reward.  what do you get for having a stake in a golf club?  they allow you to play golf there?  they certainly don't pay dividends!

also, if a club wont lower of waive joining fee then that's fine, good for them.  but then don't moan that they're loosing members and need money.

imo in todays world  golf clubs would be better of having no joining fee and slightly higher annual subs.  it would allow movement from club to club and force golf clubs to improve in order to keep members. why would I want to be pinned down to one club for the rest of my life?  1400 is a lot of money to loose.  if Whittington waived their fee they would get an addition income of at least 5k from the four of us!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Then that's the clubs fault 

Why would any club move away from a system that guarentees the money is in I have no idea
		
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A sweeping generilisation again. The club have clearly decided that the fees being charged to administer the scheme aren't cost effective and as someone pointed out, with our own software it's a cheaper and easier process to run. As I also pointed out, we've actually increased membership since waiving joining fees to the point where we are almost full, particularly for 7 day membership


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## NWJocko (Nov 10, 2014)

hovis said:



			when I have a stake in a business I have to have some sort of reward.  what do you get for having a stake in a golf club?  they allow you to play golf there?  they certainly don't pay dividends!

also, if a club wont lower of waive joining fee then that's fine, good for them.  but then don't moan that they're loosing members and need money.

imo in todays world  golf clubs would be better of having no joining fee and slightly higher annual subs.  it would allow movement from club to club and force golf clubs to improve in order to keep members. why would I want to be pinned down to one club for the rest of my life?  1400 is a lot of money to loose.  if Whittington waived their fee they would get an addition income of at least 5k from the four of us!
		
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Why would golf clubs be better off if you can move from one year to the next?

I can see why it's better for you/anyone else that wants to change regularly, not so much for the clubs IMO.


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## hovis (Nov 10, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Why would golf clubs be better off if you can move from one year to the next?

I can see why it's better for you/anyone else that wants to change regularly, not so much for the clubs IMO.
		
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joining fee puts a lot of customers off joining.  top quality clubs like Whittington and beau desert are loosing money and the fairways are empty.  I know of at least 10 golfers that would join Whittington if it wasn't for the joining fee.  lets just say they did only stay for one year.....it would still generate 15k for that club.

how can 15k for a club be anything other that positive.  beau desert cant afford to put sand in the bunkers at the moment.  15k would buy a lot of sand


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## guest100718 (Nov 10, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A sweeping generilisation again. The club have clearly decided that the fees being charged to administer the scheme aren't cost effective and as someone pointed out, with our own software it's a cheaper and easier process to run. As I also pointed out, we've actually increased membership since waiving joining fees to the point where we are almost full, particularly for 7 day membership
		
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LP is teh king of sweeping generalisation...His earlier statement that clubs with joining fees are better than thse without is a good one....


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 10, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A sweeping generilisation again. The club have clearly decided that the fees being charged to administer the scheme aren't cost effective and as someone pointed out, with our own software it's a cheaper and easier process to run. As I also pointed out, we've actually increased membership since waiving joining fees to the point where we are almost full, particularly for 7 day membership
		
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If clubs don't protect themselves and people leave without paying full subs or full joining fee then it's the clubs fault for leaving themselves open to it

Premium credit etc allow the club to get the full money into the club regardless of what the member does

And im not being specific in regards any particular golf club


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## Slab (Nov 10, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Why would golf clubs be better off if you can move from one year to the next?

I can see why it's better for you/anyone else that wants to change regularly, not so much for the clubs IMO.
		
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So is an ideal golf club model to have 90% of stable repeating members with only death/disaster events opening up opportunities for new members

So what is the purpose of a joining fee? 

To keep members (or members funds) who otherwise might want/need to leave for some reason or another
To prevent less affluent people from joining
To subsidise membership fees
To get an added financial commitment (whatever that signifies) from new members  
To attempt to force members into staying regardless of changes to club/course
To fill in a shortfall between subs & expenditure  
To prevent promoting a transient membership (leaving aside whether that's a bad thing or not) 

No idea how many (if any) of the above are true


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 10, 2014)

hovis said:



			when I have a stake in a business I have to have some sort of reward.  what do you get for having a stake in a golf club?  they allow you to play golf there?  they certainly don't pay dividends!

also, if a club wont lower of waive joining fee then that's fine, good for them.  but then don't moan that they're loosing members and need money.

imo in todays world  golf clubs would be better of having no joining fee and slightly higher annual subs.  it would allow movement from club to club and force golf clubs to improve in order to keep members. why would I want to be pinned down to one club for the rest of my life?  1400 is a lot of money to loose.  if Whittington waived their fee they would get an addition income of at least 5k from the four of us!
		
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Would you be prepared to pay a higher sub than those existing members who have paid a joining fee?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 10, 2014)

hovis said:



			joining fee puts a lot of customers off joining.  top quality clubs like Whittington and beau desert are loosing money and the fairways are empty.  I know of at least 10 golfers that would join Whittington if it wasn't for the joining fee.  lets just say they did only stay for one year.....it would still generate 15k for that club.

how can 15k for a club be anything other that positive.  beau desert cant afford to put sand in the bunkers at the moment.  15k would buy a lot of sand
		
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They could waive the joining fee but then smack 500 on top of the subs 

For people that move around a lot then a club with a joining fee won't be ideal 

But some ckubs like ourselves offer a membership which has increased subs but no joining fee and no rights to vote in agm etc


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## hovis (Nov 10, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			Would you be prepared to pay a higher sub than those existing members who have paid a joining fee?
		
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Yes


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## hovis (Nov 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But some ckubs like ourselves offer a membership which has increased subs but no joining fee and no rights to vote in agm etc
		
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Sounds like a good idea to me


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 10, 2014)

hovis said:



			Yes
		
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If there are enough like you then I agree that clubs should explore this idea.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 10, 2014)

hovis said:



			Sounds like a good idea to me
		
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Understand a number around here are doing it because we are in commuter belt area a lot are only in the area for 3/4 years


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## hovis (Nov 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Understand a number around here are doing it because we are in commuter belt area a lot are only in the area for 3/4 years
		
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If only this thing called "common sense " would catch on


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2014)

Slab said:



*So is an ideal golf club model to have 90% of stable repeating members with only death/disaster events opening up opportunities for new members*

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I'd argue this is a good business model for clubs but may be it is not in the interests of the game in general.  As if you have very little opportunity to join a (the good) clubs and it costs a fair whack to do so, then that will not grow the game really. But then of course you can't expect the clubs to drop joining fees if they can get away with them and rely on them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2014)

Lad I played yesterday joined 18months ago when the joining fee was still in place - it no longer is.  Think this was about Â£1000.  Is he bitter?  No - he says he was happy with and accepted the deal as it was presented to him then and joined.  The fact that 18months later he could have joined avoiding the joining fee is rather neither here nor there for him - said he to me with a wry smile.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not strictly true, certainly in my club's case. They did away with Fairway Credit several years ago and now handle all the membership renewals up front. In answer to the question of how big a % does this involve, simple answer is I don't know but I know of three people that jumped ship without paying the other part of the joining fee. Whether the club bothered to get that back I'm unsure without asking but it would probably be a long winded, timely and costly process.
		
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My club uses Fairway Credit and so do I.  Without it I could never have afforded this years renewal.  I spoke with our Chairman about whether the club could do it's own financial packages and payment schemes with members - just too complex and compliance with FCA too difficult and onerous.


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## JCW (Nov 10, 2014)

Â£2250 joining fee , payable over 3 years if needed , but there is a waiting list almost a year long at present


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			...It kind of keep golf at that club mostly a rich mans sport but hey ho...
		
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'Mostly rich mans' sport I disagree with.  I am not a 'rich man' (I am certainly not a poor man) but I have sufficient disposable income to fund something. And for me it is membership of a golf club.  

But for me to be a member (and I had to pay a Â£1000 joining fee) I have had to make quite significant choices in other aspects of 'lifestyle' - so no fancy car; no super-dooper home audio-visual technology; no fancy two week holidays in nice resorts; no ski holiday; pretty make do on the clothing and shoe front and one suit; don't go out for meals, cinema, theatre etc very often. And so on. 

We worry and complain that golf is portrayed and viewed by many as a 'rich mans sport' - but then we ourselves perpetuate that myth.


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## stevek1969 (Nov 10, 2014)

I use fairway credit at my club and it costs 6% to use it, I've done it now for over 10 years and don't miss the Â£650 payout in one at the end of February. To be honest i don't think i could afford to play golf if i stayed down south as some of the numbers mentioned sound horrific to say the least and I've got a decent job in the oil sector.         To be honest I've thought about leaving my place a few times but the thought of paying another joining fee which at most clubs in the area has put me of, i think IMO it breeds a sense of loyalty to the club your a member of.  Some good replies on the pros and cons of clubs who have them its been an interesting read.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2014)

stevek1969 said:



			I use fairway credit at my club and it costs 6% to use it, I've done it now for over 10 years and don't miss the Â£650 payout in one at the end of February. To be honest i don't think i could afford to play golf if i stayed down south as some of the numbers mentioned sound horrific to say the least and I've got a decent job in the oil sector.         To be honest I've thought about leaving my place a few times but the thought of paying another joining fee which at most clubs in the area has put me of, i think IMO it breeds a sense of loyalty to the club your a member of.  Some good replies on the pros and cons of clubs who have them its been an interesting read.
		
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One of the things I was suggesting to the Chairman was if there was some way of part or all of the joining fee - let's say it's Â£1000 - being an up front payment all or part of which will be fed on to the members food/drink discount card on an annual basis.  So let's split it Â£250 joining and Â£750 card.  Each year of continuous membership for 5 yrs the club puts Â£150 of his Â£750 onto his card.  If he leaves before 5 years is up he loses what is left of the Â£750.  

Anotheer idea was club offers memberships as financial packages like mortgages.  So a member can for instance sign up for a 10yr membership at a fixed amount per annum - that fixed amount being lower than that for a one year, 2 year or 5 year membership rate.  But if you sign-up for the ten year rate you incur a leaving 'penalty' if you don't want to continue membership.  The penalty covering 'loss' of income to date to club based upon the one year rate - plus admin charge.

Too complex and would need club to be FCA compliant etc etc


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## GB72 (Nov 10, 2014)

I am sort of struggling with the whole rationale behind the joining fee. If it is an essential part of the club's finances then all well and good but, if that is the case, how to clubs who have abandoned it fund themselves and how to you account for a course of income that is totally dependent on an unknown number of future new members. 

So, is it a set of handcuffs designed to keep members at the club. Surely not a great idea to have a number of disaffected members who may want to leave but cannot afford to. Not great for club spirit and atmosphere. Furthermore, should the club not be relying on the quality of gofing experience that it provides to make people want to stay rather than financial penalties. 

Maybe its' a way of moderating membership. We only want people with sufficient financial standing to apply. That may have been the case in the past but I doubt that now (though it my be just a residual thing from the old days that may never have been cancelled). It may even be a presitige thing for the club 'we must be a cgood club as people pay to join us'.

I know many clubs charge it and have a waiting list so good on them, they are clearly in demand and can do what they want. It still does not really help me understand why they have or still exist as the idea of paying someone to allow me to then pay them more money every year is an alien one despite the fact that I have paid them and had to pay them as everyone charged them


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## Tarkus1212 (Nov 10, 2014)

I've only paid a joining fee once. I guess I saw it as a "bond" between me and the club in that I was committing to the club for the foreseeable future (which I was happy to do) and in return I knew that nothing fundamental could change about the club or the courses without me having my say on it. Having been badly bitten as a member of proprietary clubs I was fed up being treated as a commodity at best and a hindrance at worst (and a certain female owner in East Anglia knows exactly what I mean). I think the club generally has a settled membership, we don't have a huge churn in members and thus they are able to budget pretty accurately year on year.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			'Mostly rich mans' sport I disagree with.  I am not a 'rich man' (I am certainly not a poor man) but I have sufficient disposable income to fund something. And for me it is membership of a golf club.  

But for me to be a member (and I had to pay a Â£1000 joining fee) I have had to make quite significant choices in other aspects of 'lifestyle' - so no fancy car; no super-dooper home audio-visual technology; no fancy two week holidays in nice resorts; no ski holiday; pretty make do on the clothing and shoe front and one suit; don't go out for meals, cinema, theatre etc very often. And so on. 

We worry and complain that golf is portrayed and viewed by many as a 'rich mans sport' - but then we ourselves perpetuate that myth.
		
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Fair play to you for doing all that, but I doubt there's many people willing to not spend in other areas you have listed (clothes, eating out, going to the cinema, decent/fancy holiday once a year) to play a hobby which takes so much time up and has so many real and perceived barriers to entry to begin with.   

If you look around the car park of most decent courses then you'll see that there are probably more new Audi's and BMWs than 8 year old Fiestas.  I know this is a generalisation and there will always be examples of members that are not relatively rich (which of course is very subjective I suppose), but if you asked people to list the major participation sports in order of how much money you need to play them then I suspect golf would come out on top.


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## hovis (Nov 10, 2014)

GB72 said:



			I am sort of struggling with the whole rationale behind the joining fee. If it is an essential part of the club's finances then all well and good but, if that is the case, how to clubs who have abandoned it fund themselves and how to you account for a course of income that is totally dependent on an unknown number of future new members. 

So, is it a set of handcuffs designed to keep members at the club. Surely not a great idea to have a number of disaffected members who may want to leave but cannot afford to. Not great for club spirit and atmosphere. Furthermore, should the club not be relying on the quality of gofing experience that it provides to make people want to stay rather than financial penalties. 

Maybe its' a way of moderating membership. We only want people with sufficient financial standing to apply. That may have been the case in the past but I doubt that now (though it my be just a residual thing from the old days that may never have been cancelled). It may even be a presitige thing for the club 'we must be a cgood club as people pay to join us'.

I know many clubs charge it and have a waiting list so good on them, they are clearly in demand and can do what they want. It still does not really help me understand why they have or still exist as the idea of paying someone to allow me to then pay them more money every year is an alien one despite the fact that I have paid them and had to pay them as everyone charged them
		
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I think that sums it up pretty well


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## NWJocko (Nov 10, 2014)

hovis said:



			joining fee puts a lot of customers off joining.  top quality clubs like Whittington and beau desert are loosing money and the fairways are empty.  I know of at least 10 golfers that would join Whittington if it wasn't for the joining fee.  lets just say they did only stay for one year.....it would still generate 15k for that club.

how can 15k for a club be anything other that positive.  beau desert cant afford to put sand in the bunkers at the moment.  15k would buy a lot of sand
		
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Obviously clubs that are struggling now for cash would be silly not to at least look at dropping joining fees. If they went under with one still in place they'd be daft.

I'm not advocating joining fees, I wish they weren't around as it would have saved me over a grand!! Just saying I can see why clubs that can justify having one in place (waiting lists etc) can use them to their benefit or why clubs might consider having one in place

If they work in retaining members (that's just my guess, never looked into it) then the risk of having a membership exodus out of the blue one year is reduced.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fair play to you for doing all that, but I doubt there's many people willing to not spend in other areas you have listed (clothes, eating out, going to the cinema, decent/fancy holiday once a year) to play a hobby which takes so much time up and has so many real and perceived barriers to entry to begin with.   

If you look around the car park of most decent courses then you'll see that there are probably more new Audi's and BMWs than 8 year old Fiestas.  I know this is a generalisation and there will always be examples of members that are not relatively rich (which of course is very subjective I suppose), but if you asked people to list the major participation sports in order of how much money you need to play them then I suspect golf would come out on top.
		
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Don't disagree - and I don't do without in the areas I've mentioned - but I certainly do with a lot less - and whilst I can understand the 'perceived' barriers to playing golf I'm still not clear what the 'real' barriers are.  Cost is relative.  What else I'm not sure.


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## Roops (Nov 10, 2014)

This discussion rears it's head at almost every SGM/AGM we have, when membership is up for discussion. We have a joining fee and the reason is normally given to try and reduce transient membership. Ours is a members club and the fees comprise a significant part of the annual budget for course/club improvements. Without a solid membership, it is almost impossible for the club to budget for long term projects, so it makes sense to make every effort to try and retain your membership.

I can see the attraction of a essentially a years golf at a reduced cost, but surely at some point, we will see price wars between adjacent clubs and transient members will vote with their feet. The upshot of this situation is clubs could be left with little guaranteed income making course maintenance/improvements impossible. Once that happens, that club is pretty much doomed, little income, deteriorating course etc etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2014)

Roops said:



			This discussion rears it's head at almost every SGM/AGM we have, when membership is up for discussion. We have a joining fee and the reason is normally given to try and reduce transient membership. Ours is a members club and the fees comprise a significant part of the annual budget for course/club improvements. Without a solid membership, it is almost impossible for the club to budget for long term projects, so it makes sense to make every effort to try and retain your membership.

I can see the attraction of a essentially a years golf at a reduced cost, but surely at some point, we will see price wars between adjacent clubs and transient members will vote with their feet. The upshot of this situation is clubs could be left with little guaranteed income making course maintenance/improvements impossible. Once that happens, that club is pretty much doomed, little income, deteriorating course etc etc.
		
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In my part of the world a price war would only be to the detriment of the courses which are in general of a high quality.  Most clubs (Hankley Common is the local exception I believe) have done away with joining fees - we have done so and are putting a big effort into getting new members and more society and green fee golf.  That said I don't believe there would 'ever' be a price war in Surrey/Hants as there are more than plenty of folk who can afford to pay the subs at the level they are - we just got to attract them to our club - the joining fee maybe being one thing that put off prospective members given they might not be sure about any 'long term' commitment to the club or indeed whether they had a real desire to play regular golf


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't disagree - and I don't do without in the areas I've mentioned - but I certainly do with a lot less - and whilst I can understand the 'perceived' barriers to playing golf *I'm still not clear what the 'real' barriers are.*  Cost is relative.  What else I'm not sure.
		
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I suppose if you take out cost which I agree is relative but I'd always argue is a barrier to entry, I'd say time spent to play and how hard the game is to master.  Yes you could argue that is also relative, but then again you could make an argument to say just about anything  is, I'm comparing it to the norms of society and to other sports/pass times competing for peoples time and money.


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## Roops (Nov 10, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In my part of the world a price war would only be to the detriment of the courses which are in general of a high quality.  Most clubs (Hankley Common is the local exception I believe) have done away with joining fees - we have done so and are putting a big effort into getting new members and more society and green fee golf.  That said I don't believe there would 'ever' be a price war in Surrey/Hants as there are more than plenty of folk who can afford to pay the subs at the level they are - we just got to attract them to our club - the joining fee maybe being one thing that put off prospective members given they might not be sure about any 'long term' commitment to the club or indeed whether they had a real desire to play regular golf
		
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What's the general feeling at your place with more Green Fees and Societies ? I know there is a massive ground swell of opinion against using both of those to supplement income at our place, we have no tee booking, so you can turn up pretty much any time and walk onto the course, a feature many members feel will be a thing of the past if we fill the course with GF's and Societies.


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## richart (Nov 10, 2014)

When I joined Blackmoor there was no joining fee, but you had to make a loan of Â£250 to the Club. Loan was repaid when you left. It was an historical practice that dated back to when the Club bought the course in the late 70's. All the then members loaned the Club Â£250, and all subsequent members did the same.

When I joined the Club I hadn't played for years, and when I looked around the private Clubs in the area, Blackmoor was the only one without a joining fee. If they had had one I wouldn't have joined, as it was too big an expense to risk on something I might not enjoy. When I left my previous Club years earlier I had absolutely no love for the game, and much preferred to play tennis. I was also a lot better at tennis.

Practice was stopped a year after I joined and a joining fee introduced. I was lucky to get in when I did, and if I had waited another year I would never have taken the stupid game up again, and met so many strange people on here. This fee varies depending on how desperate we are for members. We do a lot of open days to get members, and the joining fee is waived if you join after such a day. 

The loans were a big liability to the Club, so they asked members to waive them, in favour of some free green fees. A lot of us did that, and I seem to remember some forumers benefited.:thup:

Seems to me that if a Club has a waiting list, joining fees are a great way of raising money. If they are struggling for members it is probably putting people off. Horses for courses. Why would a Club that has a joining fee, and has a waiting list withdraw the fee ? Clubs are trying to make money for reinvestment back into the course, facilities etc, so seems to make good economic sense to carry on the practice. I would also mention that there are a lot of Clubs in my area that do have waiting lists, including North Hants where we played the H4H day.


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## SAPCOR1 (Nov 10, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My club uses Fairway Credit and so do I.  Without it I could never have afforded this years renewal.  I spoke with our Chairman about whether the club could do it's own financial packages and payment schemes with members - just too complex and compliance with FCA too difficult and onerous.
		
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That would only apply if a credit facility was being offered.  If the annual fee was split into regular DD payments then all the club would have to do is basically issue a letter or email with the details of the amounts and payment intervals along with the DD mandate and a copy of the DD Guarentee.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2014)

Roops said:



			What's the general feeling at your place with more Green Fees and Societies ? I know there is a massive ground swell of opinion against using both of those to supplement income at our place, we have no tee booking, so you can turn up pretty much any time and walk onto the course, a feature many members feel will be a thing of the past if we fill the course with GF's and Societies.
		
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We are bringing in a tee booking for off-peak times only.  I'm OK with this as long is it is on a trial basis.  There is some resistance I think to bringing in much more in the way of societies and green fees but some increase would be acceptable I think.  There are plenty of times of a weekend I have been 'lord of all I survey' being the only member in sight - and that on a nice day as well.  My own feeling is that we will definitely lose our main USP (as a trad members club) if we go too much down the route of 'seeking the corporate pound'.  I do not want us to go that route and many I speak with are in agreement,


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 10, 2014)

SAPCOR1 said:



			That would only apply if a credit facility was being offered.  If the annual fee was split into regular DD payments then all the club would have to do is basically issue a letter or email with the details of the amounts and payment intervals along with the DD mandate and a copy of the DD Guarentee.
		
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But if the Club does not offer a credit facility and charge interest it and those members paying their fees in one lump are losing out.

Also the Club would have no protection from those who choose to leave mid-term leaving outstanding balances.

Back to the original problem of clubs trying to balance income and expenditure.


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## SAPCOR1 (Nov 10, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			But if the Club does not offer a credit facility and charge interest it and those members paying their fees in one lump are losing out.

Also the Club would have no protection from those who choose to leave mid-term leaving outstanding balances.

Back to the original problem of clubs trying to balance income and expenditure.
		
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Depends on how you look at it.  Regular monthly cash flow or large lumps once a year.  Additionally if they stop paying they stop playing which also applies to those on credit agreements.


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## Ista (Nov 10, 2014)

I'm a relatively new golfer having retaken up the game again 4 years ago ( I'm in my 40s & previously hadn't played for 20 yrs). After 4 years of playing pay as you play courses & trying to improve on the local driving range I'm now contemplating golf club membership for the first time however there is no way on gods earth I would pay a joining fee to join a golf club based purely on principle.

Joining fees are charged by clubs where market rates allow ie supply & demand & I won't bite in those circumstances even if I could comfortably afford the deal. It's all about perceived value balanced against cost and principle & joining fees are a big blocker for me regardless of any debate.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 10, 2014)

Ista said:



			I'm a relatively new golfer having retaken up the game again 4 years ago ( I'm in my 40s & previously hadn't played for 20 yrs). After 4 years of playing pay as you play courses & trying to improve on the local driving range I'm now contemplating golf club membership for the first time however there is no way on gods earth I would pay a joining fee to join a golf club based purely on principle.

Joining fees are charged by clubs where market rates allow ie supply & demand & I won't bite in those circumstances even if I could comfortably afford the deal. It's all about perceived value balanced against cost and principle & joining fees are a big blocker for me regardless of any debate.
		
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Fair comment, it's entirely your choice.

If you have 2 clubs both charging Â£1000 a year subs but one has a Â£2000 joining fee, what do you think they do with that extra money? Maybe invest it in the conditioning of the course and facilities?

I guess what I'm saying is you get what you pay for (with private clubs, not proprietry clubs run to line someone's pockets).


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 10, 2014)

SAPCOR1 said:



			Depends on how you look at it.  Regular monthly cash flow or large lumps once a year.  Additionally if they stop paying they stop playing which also applies to those on credit agreements.
		
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But with Fairway/Premium Credit the Club receives the member's entire subscription up front so if a member leaves mid-term the Club has already received the subscription in full.

If that member chooses to not fulfil his monthly commitment it is the credit company who will pursue them for the outstanding balance so no risk or loss to theClub.


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## SAPCOR1 (Nov 11, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			But with Fairway/Premium Credit the Club receives the member's entire subscription up front so if a member leaves mid-term the Club has already received the subscription in full.

If that member chooses to not fulfil his monthly commitment it is the credit company who will pursue them for the outstanding balance so no risk or loss to theClub.
		
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Personally I wouldn't take out a credit agreement to play golf and if it was such a good scheme it would be more universal.  Most golfers I know pay monthly via DD and a few pay all their subs in one go


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## Snelly (Nov 11, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			Whole thing is a bit of a non-argument IMHO.

If a club levies a joining fee and has a waiting list, then people are obviously willing to pay it. If a club has vacancies on a permanent basis, then obviously the subs alone are enough of a deterrent and a JF isn't going to help attract people. You simply compare what you're paying in to what you expect in return - and decide if the sum add up for you. It's sod all to do with being "outdated", "anachronistic", "snobbish" or whatever. It's just one sort of business model - which will work for some and not for others.

We have a JF which is twice the annual subs. And given that our subs are high, the JF is somewhat higher than anything mentioned in the thread so far. But I was willing to pay it. And so, it seems, are the folks on the waiting list. And it all gets invested in the club and the course.
		
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Great post. A perfect summary of the discussion.  Elitism is a red herring.  We can't all drive rolls-royces.


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## guest100718 (Nov 11, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Great post. A perfect summary of the discussion.  *Elitism is a red herring*.  We can't all drive rolls-royces.
		
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You think? I know a local club where the senior members voted to for go their Membership discount rather then remove the joining fee.


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## patricks148 (Nov 11, 2014)

The Joining fee is fine for clubs that have the demand.

Take inverness for instance, there are 3 clubs in the town one has a 7 year waiting list and a joining fee the other 2 don't. You could also join other courses within a 20 min drive and not pay a joining fee.

Club 1 has the demand and can command the JF no problem.


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## bluewolf (Nov 11, 2014)

Ista said:



			I'm a relatively new golfer having retaken up the game again 4 years ago ( I'm in my 40s & previously hadn't played for 20 yrs). After 4 years of playing pay as you play courses & trying to improve on the local driving range I'm now contemplating golf club membership for the first time however there is no way on gods earth I would pay a joining fee to join a golf club based purely on principle.

Joining fees are charged by clubs where market rates allow ie supply & demand & I won't bite in those circumstances even if I could comfortably afford the deal. It's all about perceived value balanced against cost and principle & joining fees are a big blocker for me regardless of any debate.
		
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To be honest, I'm not sure there are too many clubs charging joining fees around you (and me) anyway. Ashton still has a Â£1k JF (and has a relatively full membership), but I find that a bit baffling. Wigan GC has dropped it, and WGC was one of the most difficult clubs to join in the area not so long ago.. Houghwood has massively reduced it and has offered other perks instead.. Gathurst has dropped it (it might be Â£1 as a token payment)..

Which clubs are you looking at?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			The Joining fee is fine for clubs that have the demand.

Take inverness for instance, there are 3 clubs in the town one has a 7 year waiting list and a joining fee the other 2 don't. You could also join other courses within a 20 min drive and not pay a joining fee.

Club 1 has the demand and can command the JF no problem.
		
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Which one has the waiting list - Culcabock? Nice track I thought when I played it 30yrs back - expect it's really matured nice since then


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## patricks148 (Nov 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which one has the waiting list - Culcabock? Nice track I thought when I played it 30yrs back - expect it's really matured nice since then
		
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yep, Inverness GC. I think the list opens every seven years so you could be longer to get in. 

I was a member for a year, but it gets very wet at time with the burn running right though the middle and that transmits to the holes along the edge of that. Very busy at time so not somewhere you can just rock up and play, unlike Nairn. 

the Main downside for me was it too as long to get to as Nairn does from my House and its less than a couple of miles away, especially on a summer afternoon and at Rush hour. traffic in Snekie is a joke at times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			...traffic in Snekie is a joke at times.
		
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Reminds me of a very old 78 rpm record my mum has - The Inversneckie Fire Brigade sung by Harry Gordon


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## patricks148 (Nov 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reminds me of a very old 78 rpm record my mum has - The Inversneckie Fire Brigade sung by Harry Gordon 

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Don't know that one, is it Like "Inversneckie its the Business" check that out on Youtube


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## drewster (Nov 12, 2014)

Our club is running a "special" Â£150 joining fee down from Â£450 i believe which IS a bit "special" in my opinion . We're a decent club with a pretty good course but from what i've seen in my 2 years up here i don't think we stand out as any better than any other members clubs. There's a relatively high saturation of clubs in our little region all battling for new members and personally i think we should be more attractive to newcomers. I do believe, other Lincs contributors may tell me otherwise, that apart from Woodhall we are one of the only clubs to charge a joining fee.


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## macca64 (Nov 12, 2014)

No sign of ours stopping, waiting list about to get even longer as the club want to reduce the membership, to many apparently, never seen it that busy to be honest !


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 12, 2014)

drewster said:



			There's a relatively high saturation of clubs in our little region all battling for new members
		
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A few I guess but you have to drive pretty far, I remember a 30 minutes drive being pretty normal to get anywhere in Lincs... Back in the 90s the little village was pretty remote feeling!

GGC is decent, Scunthorpe has a couple. Immingham is decent but a bit too quirky for my likes.

I love Grimsby Golf Club, cracking course, cracking club and a fantastic 18th!


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## drewster (Nov 13, 2014)

ScienceBoy said:



			A few I guess but you have to drive pretty far, I remember a 30 minutes drive being pretty normal to get anywhere in Lincs... Back in the 90s the little village was pretty remote feeling!

GGC is decent, Scunthorpe has a couple. Immingham is decent but a bit too quirky for my likes.

I love Grimsby Golf Club, cracking course, cracking club and a fantastic 18th!
		
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Ashby Decoy, Holme Hall, Grimsby, Immingham, Cleethorpes, Normanby, Market Rasen, Elsham, Waltham Windmill and Laceby Manor are all within a 20 minute drive and that's not forgetting the great courses just over the bridge. Something will give somewhere eventually and the progressive, proactive ones will prevail in my opinion of course.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 13, 2014)

drewster said:



			Ashby Decoy, Holme Hall, Grimsby, Immingham, Cleethorpes, Normanby, Market Rasen, Elsham, Waltham Windmill and Laceby Manor are all within a 20 minute drive and that's not forgetting the great courses just over the bridge. Something will give somewhere eventually and the progressive, proactive ones will prevail in my opinion of course.
		
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Both my grand parents lived in Immingham a stones throw away from the course and I spent many a happy summer in Immingham when I was growing up.  I also had my first ever lesson at Immingham taken by my granddad.  Never played the course though and grandparents are long dead, but reading this has made me all nostalgic so I may well see if I can play there.


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## Ista (Nov 13, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			To be honest, I'm not sure there are too many clubs charging joining fees around you (and me) anyway. Ashton still has a Â£1k JF (and has a relatively full membership), but I find that a bit baffling. Wigan GC has dropped it, and WGC was one of the most difficult clubs to join in the area not so long ago.. Houghwood has massively reduced it and has offered other perks instead.. Gathurst has dropped it (it might be Â£1 as a token payment)..

Which clubs are you looking at?
		
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i live between Dean Wood & Houghwood & whilst they are chalk & cheese lay outs I like both courses. Will probably come down to what feedback I get from any clubs within a 20 minute travel zone before I make a decision in the springtime. Must admit Wigan GC was not in my thought process ( I never even knew where it was until quite recently ). That, Gathurst & North West National as well I guess. Where do you play ?


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## bluewolf (Nov 13, 2014)

Ista said:



			i live between Dean Wood & Houghwood & whilst they are chalk & cheese lay outs I like both courses. Will probably come down to what feedback I get from any clubs within a 20 minute travel zone before I make a decision in the springtime. Must admit Wigan GC was not in my thought process ( I never even knew where it was until quite recently ). That, Gathurst & North West National as well I guess. Where do you play ?
		
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I'm at Houghwood. I used to be at Gathurst. Depends what you want from a club really. Gathurst, Wigan, Dean Wood are all quite traditional members clubs. Houghwood is a bit more modern and is proprietary. NW National doesn't really have the best reputation, but I haven't played it so I can't really comment on the course. You've also got Chorley GC, which is right at the limit of your commute limit. 

Youre re welcome for a knock at Houghwood if we can schedule something.


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