# 15 clubs in your opponents bag, what to do?



## EarCat (Feb 24, 2014)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Today, my playing partner told me about his experiences in a lower handicap match play event against other clubs, namely how competitive some players in the teams get. He told me of how last summer, he played an away game in which, on the third green, the player from my club discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag as he had taken 2 putters with him as he had never played the course before and didn't know how fast the greens were and had forgotten to take one out. Now if that had happened to me, I would think "that's any honest mistake, he has gained no advantage as he had only used one of the putters, just leave it in your bag and play on". Instead, the guy from the other team said to the player from my home course "Well, that's me 3 up then". I can't be the only one who thinks that golf is a gents game and should be played accordingly, I'd rather win with a putter in my hand than a rule book. [/FONT]


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## richart (Feb 24, 2014)

EarCat said:



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Today, my playing partner told me about his experiences in a lower handicap match play event against other clubs, namely how competitive some players in the teams get. He told me of how last summer, he played an away game in which, on the third green, the player from my club discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag as he had taken 2 putters with him as he had never played the course before and didn't know how fast the greens were and had forgotten to take one out. Now if that had happened to me, I would think "that's any honest mistake, he has gained no advantage as he had only used one of the putters, just leave it in your bag and play on". Instead, the guy from the other team said to the player from my home course "Well, that's me 3 up then". I can't be the only one who thinks that golf is a gents game and should be played accordingly, I'd rather win with a putter in my hand than a rule book. [/FONT]
		
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 Which rules do you intend to play by, and which ones are you going to ignore ?


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## the_coach (Feb 24, 2014)

A player's responsibility is to play entirely honestly both in the spirit of the game but importantly uphold all the rules of golf as they stand (even if some may need looking at again, as a moving ball on the green was recently, but it's up to those who are put in the governance position to do this and not an individual golfer).

The golfer who sadly made the mistake, having declared what happened when they realized should have said under the rules of golf he's forfeits the holes concerned and take the onus away from his competitor having to do anything at all. (didn't the Irish golfer McGinley do this in a stroke play event and had to take the penalty shots for the hole/s played up until the discovery, despite this being the caddies job to check the bag before start), the 15th club has to be removed from the bag immediately and the game continues with him 3 down.(edit:forgot about the 2 hole maximum: probably another rule that needs revisiting by the governing bodies )
Unfortunate but that's the only outcome.


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## didsbury_duffer (Feb 24, 2014)

Richart is correct.....rules are rules. The player was right to claim the holes.


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## SGC001 (Feb 24, 2014)

Why 3?

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/


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## EarCat (Feb 24, 2014)

richart said:



			Which rules do you intend to play by, and which ones are you going to ignore ?
		
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Maybe I'm wrong here, but I realise that victory is not the be all and end all in sport, I would rather lose fairly than win by taking advantage of someone's innocent mistake.


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## garyinderry (Feb 24, 2014)

what do you do with the spare putter in this situation?   do you leave it in the nearest bush/bin or can you just leave it in your bag but declared as "not in use"?


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## Bratty (Feb 24, 2014)

richart said:



			Which rules do you intend to play by, and which ones are you going to ignore ?
		
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Guessing he's starting with the 14 club rule, Richart 

3 up seems perfectly fair to me.


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## richart (Feb 24, 2014)

EarCat said:



			Maybe I'm wrong here, but I realise that victory is not the be all and end all in sport, I would rather lose fairly than win by taking advantage of someone's innocent mistake.
		
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 If you ignored the rule, couldn't you both be dq'd.


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## spawn_ukuk (Feb 24, 2014)

There are alot of rules in golf as we all know, But we also know there are some big rules the rules that stand out.
Having too many clubs in the bag is one of those rules is just too big so yeh its right to punish them for that rule.


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## Bratty (Feb 24, 2014)

EarCat said:



			Maybe I'm wrong here, but I realise that victory is not the be all and end all in sport, I would rather lose fairly than win by taking advantage of someone's innocent mistake.
		
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But the rule clearly states 14 clubs, so innocent mistake or not, that's the rule. It's not taking advantage,  it's adhering to the laws of the game.


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## EarCat (Feb 25, 2014)

Bratty said:



			But the rule clearly states 14 clubs, so innocent mistake or not, that's the rule. It's not taking advantage,  it's adhering to the laws of the game.
		
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Firstly, I don't understand why there is a limit on how many clubs you can have, you can only hit one at a time, can't you? Secondly, take the argument of taking advantage of another's innocent mistake being morally wrong into life in general, if you were walking behind someone and they dropped their wallet without noticing, would you give it back to them or lift it and put it in your pocket? I, for one, couldn't look myself in the face if I took advantage.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 25, 2014)

didsbury_duffer said:



			Richart is correct.....rules are rules. The player was right to claim the holes.
		
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SGC001 said:



			Why 3?

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/

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Good point. Max penalty is 2 holes and the penalty isn't loss of hole it's adjustment of the score in match play. 

So if player A who had 15 clubs was 2UP standing on the 3rd green and also went on to win the 3rd hole the match stands as 1UP to player A not 3UP or even 2UP to player B. 

At the same time if player B was 2UP and won the 3rd hole he would now be 5UP after 3 holes played. 




garyinderry said:



			what do you do with the spare putter in this situation?   do you leave it in the nearest bush/bin or can you just leave it in your bag but declared as "not in use"?
		
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Declare it out of play to your opponent and carry it with you. DQ if you then go on to use it after the declaration.


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## the_coach (Feb 25, 2014)

richart said:



			If you ignored the rule, couldn't you both be dq'd.

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Be interesting to find out, by a rules official, would have to pore through the rule book to be sure. But it could be that the player carrying the extra club would forfeit 2 holes and the player who through sentiment didn't attend to the letter of the law might find himself DQ'd, unsure if both would be would guess that would be probable, not something I've ever had experience of.



EarCat said:



			Maybe I'm wrong here, but I realise that victory is not the be all and end all in sport, I would rather lose fairly than win by taking advantage of someone's innocent mistake.
		
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Understand the sentiment, but you wouldn't be taking advantage of someone's mistake but rather abiding by the rules of golf, something you have to do having teed the ball up in competition governed by those rules.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 25, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Be interesting to find out, by a rules official, would have to pore through the rule book to be sure. But it could be that the player carrying the extra club would forfeit 2 holes and the player who through sentiment didn't attend to the letter of the law might find himself DQ'd, unsure if both would be would guess that would be probable, not something I've ever had experience of.
		
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Not very far into the book. 

Rule 1-3 Agreement to waive the rules (which is what choosing to ignore would be)

Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred. 

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3: 
Match play â€“ Disqualification of both sides;
Stroke play â€“ Disqualification of competitors concerned.


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## EarCat (Feb 25, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			Not very far into the book. 

Rule 1-3 Agreement to waive the rules (which is what choosing to ignore would be)

Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred. 

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3: 
Match play â€“ Disqualification of both sides;
Stroke play â€“ Disqualification of competitors concerned.
		
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fair enough then, I would just concede the number of holes until it is A/S again, I refuse to leave the golf course feeling like a cheat.


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## garyinderry (Feb 25, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			Declare it out of play to your opponent and carry it with you. DQ if you then go on to use it after the declaration.
		
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grand.  this is easily something that could happen to me!


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## the_coach (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Once it's discovered, Penalty must be applied.
		
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We are all already sure of this, just the OP mixing sentiment with the rules.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

the_coach said:



			We are all already sure of this, just the OP mixing sentiment with the rules.
		
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There was another bit to that post, but I deleted entire post when I saw how many others had said the same things that I was saying.


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## North Mimms (Feb 25, 2014)

I pulled out a 7 iron to play to the 8th green during a match, and realised it wasn't mine... I'd picked up someone's left behind club the day before and forgotten to hand it in.
Thankfully I normally only carry 13 clubs so no penalty!


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			what do you do with the spare putter in this situation?   do you leave it in the nearest bush/bin or can you just leave it in your bag but declared as "not in use"?
		
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Once discovered the player has to declare the extra club out of use for the rest of the round to his opponent or marker.  Effective penalty is loss of two holes in matchplay, or 4 strokes in stroke play (2 at each of the first two holes). If he uses the club again during the round it's a DQ.

By the way, Ian Woosnam once threw a very nice new driver into the bushes when he found he had too many clubs in his bag during the last round of an Open Championship when he was well in contention, until the 4 stroke penalty was added. He had being trying out a couple of drivers on the range and his caddie had forgotten to remove the unwanted one from his bag. I believe that the caddie was sacked shortly afterwards!


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Once discovered the player has to declare the extra club out of use for the rest of the round to his opponent or marker.  Effective penalty is loss of two holes in matchplay, or 4 strokes in stroke play (2 at each of the first two holes). If he uses the club again during the round it's a DQ.

By the way, Ian Woosnam once threw a very nice new driver into the bushes when he found he had too many clubs in his bag during the last round of an Open Championship when he was well in contention, until the 4 stroke penalty was added. He had being trying out a couple of drivers on the range and his caddie had forgotten to remove the unwanted one from his bag. I believe that the caddie was sacked shortly afterwards!
		
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Sorry, just checked and he only got a 2 shot penalty as he only played the 1st hole with the extra driver. The extra club was discovered before he teed off on the 2nd. (It's 2 shots per hole up to a maximum of two holes). See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYV-csdgRv0


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Once discovered the player has to declare the extra club out of use for the rest of the round to his opponent or marker.  Effective penalty is loss of two holes in matchplay, or 4 strokes in stroke play (2 at each of the first two holes). If he uses the club again during the round it's a DQ.
		
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There's a distinct similarity with what P..Bob posted an hour and a half earlier!:whoo:

Except P..Bob is correct and You are not. *Maximum* penalty is as you described, not effective - as in Woosnam's 2 shot at Lytham, where he was leading, not just 'in contention'!

Skim reading again!


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			fair enough then, I would just concede the number of holes until it is A/S again, I refuse to leave the golf course feeling like a cheat.
		
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If you were playing me, I'd consider that very nice of you. But I certainly wouldn't do the same if the positions were reversed! My view is that it's impossible to cheat if you play by the Rules!

And I have 'fessed up to playing with 15 clubs in the bag - discovered on the 5th tee!


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			There's a distinct similarity with what P..Bob posted an hour and a half earlier!:whoo:

Except P..Bob is correct and You are not. *Maximum* penalty is as you described, not effective - as in Woosnam's 2 shot at Lytham, where he was leading, not just 'in contention'!

Skim reading again!

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He was only joint leader at the time with Niclas Fasth. David Duval was the eventual winner, with Fasth second and Woosnam trailing in 4 shots behind, 2 of them due to the penalty strokes. As I have already stated, it's 2 shots per hole up to a maximum of 2 holes, so a maximum of 4 penalty shots, or 2 holes lost in matchplay.


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Today, my playing partner told me about his experiences in a lower handicap match play event against other clubs, namely how competitive some players in the teams get. He told me of how last summer, he played an away game in which, on the third green, the player from my club discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag as he had taken 2 putters with him as he had never played the course before and didn't know how fast the greens were and had forgotten to take one out. Now if that had happened to me, I would think "that's any honest mistake, he has gained no advantage as he had only used one of the putters, just leave it in your bag and play on". Instead, the guy from the other team said to the player from my home course "Well, that's me 3 up then". I can't be the only one who thinks that golf is a gents game and should be played accordingly, I'd rather win with a putter in my hand than a rule book. [/FONT]
		
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The rules are clear but what wouldn't be clear is whether it was an unintentional mistake or an attempt to cheat, in this case it is as you stated a mistake but at low h/cap level everything is very competitive and if you break the rules you suffer the consequences.

oh sorry I just knocked my ball out of the rough intentional but genuine accident???


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## Wayman (Feb 25, 2014)

Bratty said:



			But the rule clearly states 14 clubs, so innocent mistake or not, that's the rule. It's not taking advantage,  it's adhering to the laws of the game.
		
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Agree with this 

Can't just let them play on with no penalty


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Today, my playing partner told me about his experiences in a lower handicap match play event against other clubs, namely how competitive some players in the teams get. He told me of how last summer, he played an away game in which, on the third green, the player from my club discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag as he had taken 2 putters with him as he had never played the course before and didn't know how fast the greens were and had forgotten to take one out. Now if that had happened to me, I would think "that's any honest mistake, he has gained no advantage as he had only used one of the putters, just leave it in your bag and play on". Instead, the guy from the other team said to the player from my home course "Well, that's me 3 up then". I can't be the only one who thinks that golf is a gents game and should be played accordingly, I'd rather win with a putter in my hand than a rule book. [/FONT]
		
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Given it was a Matchplay event he could have overlooked the breach of the Rules.

I think that we all understand where your coming from with your argument but:

All games have rules to play to

You don't know if the breach of rules is deliberate or accidental

You could have several breaches by an opponent on every hole and lose simply because of them

In Strokeplay you are refereeing for the rest of the entrants who arn't in your group

All proper sports have strict rules governing the way the game is played, without them the best cheat wins !!


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## Paperboy (Feb 25, 2014)

the_coach said:



			(didn't the Irish golfer McGinley do this in a stroke play event and had to take the penalty shots for the hole/s played up until the discovery, despite this being the caddies job to check the bag before start), the 15th club has to be removed from the bag immediately and the game continues with him 3 down.(edit:forgot about the 2 hole maximum: probably another rule that needs revisiting by the governing bodies )
Unfortunate but that's the only outcome.
		
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I know Ian Woosnam had that once he promptly sacked his caddy the next week. He was winning the tournament at the time and never recovered!!


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## delc (Feb 25, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Given it was a Matchplay event he could have overlooked the breach of the Rules.

I think that we all understand where your coming from with your argument but:

All games have rules to play to

You don't know if the breach of rules is deliberate or accidental

You could have several breaches by an opponent on every hole and lose simply because of them

In Strokeplay you are refereeing for the rest of the entrants who arn't in your group

All proper sports have strict rules governing the way the game is played, without them the best cheat wins !!
		
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Really it's a bit like a football team taking to the field with 12 players, or a Rugby Union team with 16 players. I remember that the latter did actually once happen for the last few minutes of an England match due to a substituting error, and there was a hell of a stink about it afterwards!


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## guest100718 (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Today, my playing partner told me about his experiences in a lower handicap match play event against other clubs, namely how competitive some players in the teams get. He told me of how last summer, he played an away game in which, on the third green, the player from my club discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag as he had taken 2 putters with him as he had never played the course before and didn't know how fast the greens were and had forgotten to take one out. Now if that had happened to me, I would think "that's any honest mistake, he has gained no advantage as he had only used one of the putters, just leave it in your bag and play on". Instead, the guy from the other team said to the player from my home course "Well, that's me 3 up then". I can't be the only one who thinks that golf is a gents game and should be played accordingly, I'd rather win with a putter in my hand than a rule book. [/FONT]
		
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you're setting yourself up for a flaming.


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## guest100718 (Feb 25, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Given it was a Matchplay event he could have overlooked the breach of the Rules.

I think that we all understand where your coming from with your argument but:

All games have rules to play to

You don't know if the breach of rules is deliberate or accidental

You could have several breaches by an opponent on every hole and lose simply because of them

*In Strokeplay you are refereeing for the rest of the entrants who arn't in your group*

All proper sports have strict rules governing the way the game is played, without them the best cheat wins !!
		
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You are not anyones referee.


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Today, my playing partner told me about his experiences in a lower handicap match play event against other clubs, namely how competitive some players in the teams get. He told me of how last summer, he played an away game in which, on the third green, the player from my club discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag as he had taken 2 putters with him as he had never played the course before and didn't know how fast the greens were and had forgotten to take one out. Now if that had happened to me, I would think "that's any honest mistake, he has gained no advantage as he had only used one of the putters, just leave it in your bag and play on". Instead, the guy from the other team said to the player from my home course "Well, that's me 3 up then". I can't be the only one who thinks that golf is a gents game and should be played accordingly, I'd rather win with a putter in my hand than a rule book. [/FONT]
		
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You don't apply a penalty, he does. But he must. The questions of whether it is a honest mistake and/or an advantage gained or not are irrelevant. Penalties may apply from entirely unintentional actions, such as a rebounding ball hitting your body or golf bag. Pure fluke and chance event, but a penalty. 

If you agree to waive it, you are both DQ'd.


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## woody69 (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			fair enough then, I would just concede the number of holes until it is A/S again, I refuse to leave the golf course feeling like a cheat.
		
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Why would you feel like a cheat for pulling someone up for breaking a rule?


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

Paperboy said:



			I know Ian Woosnam had that once he promptly sacked his caddy the next week. He was winning the tournament at the time and never recovered!!
		
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Not the next week. and not for that particular incident.


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## guest100718 (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Not the next week. and not for that particular incident.
		
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Didnt he over sleep or something and caused him to miss a tee time?


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			You are not anyones referee.
		
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I think we've been down this one before Paddy and I don't intend to do so again. I think everyone understands that in a 3 ball strokeplay comp that everyone is looking to protect the integrity of the rules for the rest of the field who are not there to see what happens in their group - but you look at it whichever way you choose.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Sorry, just checked and he only got a 2 shot penalty as he only played the 1st hole with the extra driver. The extra club was discovered before he teed off on the 2nd. (It's 2 shots per hole up to a maximum of two holes). See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYV-csdgRv0

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Yes, I was there at Royal Lytham. Bit unlucky really as the first is a par 3 so didn't go near the driver until the 2nd tee.


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## guest100718 (Feb 25, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I think we've been down this one before Paddy and I don't intend to do so again. I think everyone understands that in a 3 ball strokeplay comp that everyone is looking to protect the integrity of the rules for the rest of the field who are not there to see what happens in their group - but you look at it whichever way you choose.
		
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You should probably look up the defenition of referee.


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			You should probably look up the defenition of referee.
		
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You should probably look up the definition of pedantic.

You know what I'm saying is correct in reality.


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## guest100718 (Feb 25, 2014)

chrisd said:



			You should probably look up the definition of pedantic.

You know what I'm saying is correct in reality.
		
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But it isn't.


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			But it isn't.
		
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you can quote any rule, passage or definition you like Paddy but on Sunday in a competition I am refereeing myself and my 2 playing partners for the rest of the field and I really don't care that you want to be so pedantic as to not accept the wider definition of "refereeing". If I am not doing so, why would I call them on infringements of rules and/or sign, or refuse to sign, their card?


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## londonlewis (Feb 25, 2014)

If I was playing against you I would have done the same thing. 
It is a gentleman's game and it would be very unfair of being accused of not being a gentleman because you invoked the correct use of the rules.


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## EarCat (Feb 25, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			If I was playing against you I would have done the same thing. 
It is a gentleman's game and it would be very unfair of being accused of not being a gentleman because you invoked the correct use of the rules.
		
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Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.


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## mcbroon (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.
		
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I'd feel like an idiot.  I wouldn't feel hard done by - I'd understand that I broke the rules and that I incurred a penalty under those rules.  There is no wriggle room, it's not a matter of compassion.

Everybody knows the 14 club limit and everyone knows there's a penalty if you breach it.  Nobody should feel aggrieved about being penalised if they do breach it.


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## Airlie_Andy (Feb 25, 2014)

As it was Matchplay I would say don't worry about it and continue the game, although I'm now not sure if this would see us both DQ? Obviously in any other comp I would have to call the penalty to protect the field.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 25, 2014)

As its match play whats too stop you saying to the guy , 

"look i dont want to call you on this , but if anyone finds out we will both be DQ'd so lets not mention it and let the best golfer win " 

just dont use both putters .........

im not saying its right ok ,  but what's to stop you doing what you think is right when the only person that can be effected is you ?


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			As its match play whats too stop you saying to the guy , 

"look i dont want to call you on this , but if anyone finds out we will both be DQ'd so lets not mention it and let the best golfer win " 

just dont use both putters .........

im not saying its right ok ,  but what's to stop you doing what you think is right when the only person that can be effected is you ?
		
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There's no need to agree this. You have the right to overlook a breach of rules during a Matchplay game, the reason being that you are not affecting any other players chances.


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.
		
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Again, you do not have discretion to waive the rule. If you do, and he accepts, you are both DQ'd. 

And your opponent should not accept it anyway..

A few holes later, you striped a drive long and straight up the middle. Then when your opponent was in the process of hitting his drive you accidentally released a sonorous, seismic even, fart, he flinched and hit his ball into the lake. In that scenario, you can't give him another go. It matters not whether it would be sporting or karmically wise to do so. You can't. 

No difference between the two scenarios.


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2014)

chrisd said:



			There's no need to agree this. You have the right to overlook a breach of rules during a Matchplay game, the reason being that you are not affecting any other players chances.
		
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Not so. Show me where it says that in the ROG.

Rule 1-3. Agreement to waive rules - DQ of both players.


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Not so. Show me where it says that in the ROG.

Rule 1-3. Agreement to waive rules - DQ of both players.
		
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I didn't say that they should agree, I said that he could overlook the matter, which he is entitled to do


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I didn't say that they should agree, I said that he could overlook the matter, which he is entitled to do
		
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Show me where that is allowed.

Oh, and if the other player fessed up as suggested in the first post, and he says 'don't worry about it, mate' and the player accepts, they have agreed.


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## Spuddy (Feb 25, 2014)

You can't agree between you to waive the rules but you can, in match play choose to disregard a rule.  See note 1 to rule 2-5



			[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]*Note 1:* A player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponentprovided there is no agreement by the sides to waive a Rule (Rule 1-3).[/FONT]
		
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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Show me where that is allowed.

Oh, and if the other player fessed up as suggested in the first post, and he says 'don't worry about it, mate' and the player accepts, they have agreed.
		
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Note 1 rule 2 -5


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			You can't agree between you to waive the rules but you can, in match play choose to disregard a rule.  See note 1 to rule 2-5
		
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Sorry Spuddy, you must have posted while I was double checking rule number!


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			You can't agree between you to waive the rules but you can, in match play choose to disregard a rule.  See note 1 to rule 2-5
		
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chrisd said:



			Note 1 rule 2 -5
		
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Well played, gents. I concede the issue.


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Oh, and if the other player fessed up as suggested in the first post, and he says 'don't worry about it, mate' and the player accepts, they have agreed.
		
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I know we've pointed you in the right direction Ethan, but to answer this point

The player can ignore what had happened, his competitor then can declare the extra club as out of play and, so long as he doesn't use it, he isn't penalised for carrying it.


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## Spuddy (Feb 25, 2014)

[h=2][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]


1-3/4[/FONT][/h][h=4][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Failure of Players to Apply Known Penalty[/FONT][/h][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]*Q.*In a match, a player discovers at the 2nd hole that he has 15 clubs in his bag contrary to Rule 4-4a, but his opponent refuses to apply the penalty. The extra club is declared out of play and the match continues. The Committee disqualifies both players. Is this correct?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]*A.*Yes. Since the players agreed to waive the penalty, they should be disqualified under Rule 1-3.

Now I'm confused![/FONT]


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## Bratty (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			Firstly, I don't understand why there is a limit on how many clubs you can have, you can only hit one at a time, can't you? Secondly, take the argument of taking advantage of another's innocent mistake being morally wrong into life in general, if you were walking behind someone and they dropped their wallet without noticing, would you give it back to them or lift it and put it in your pocket? I, for one, couldn't look myself in the face if I took advantage.
		
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You may not understand it, but that's the rule. So you have to follow it. you can't choose which ones to ignore/breach if you don't like/understand them, surely?

As for taking advantage in the scenario you state, they are two entirely different things. I've picked up Â£20 notes in pubs and handed them back to people who had no idea they'd dropped them. I've contacted online merchants when they've sent duplicate items and I've not paid for them. There is no rule governing that behaviour, only my moral compass. 

Morals and rules are two different things.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, god forbid, but I could sleep quite soundly having done what the opposition did in the OP. I may have said it differently, but the outcome would have been the same.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			[h=2][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]


1-3/4[/FONT][/h][h=4][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Failure of Players to Apply Known Penalty[/FONT][/h][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]*Q.*In a match, a player discovers at the 2nd hole that he has 15 clubs in his bag contrary to Rule 4-4a, but his opponent refuses to apply the penalty. The extra club is declared out of play and the match continues. The Committee disqualifies both players. Is this correct?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]*A.*Yes. Since the players agreed to waive the penalty, they should be disqualified under Rule 1-3.

Now I'm confused![/FONT]
		
Click to expand...

No confusion there!

My take is that if a Player notices a breach, then he needn't apply it. But if both players know there is a breach, then not applying it means DQ.

So happily ignore opponent moving Loose Impediments in hazards or repairing spike marks on green, but where both know, then both DQ-ed. It's ok to point out breach on previous hole after teeing off on the next.

And another point. If YOU discover there are 15+ clubs in the opponents bag, then you can ignore it. Though if you discover it on the first hole there's something of a moral dilemna!


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			No confusion there!

My take is that if a Player notices a breach, then he needn't apply it. But if both players know there is a breach, then not applying it means DQ.

So happily ignore opponent moving Loose Impediments in hazards or repairing spike marks on green, but where both know, then both DQ-ed. It's ok to point out breach on previous hole after teeing off on the next.

And another point. If YOU discover there are 15+ clubs in the opponents bag, then you can ignore it. Though if you discover it on the first hole there's something of a moral dilemna!

Click to expand...

Agreed!


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## londonlewis (Feb 25, 2014)

EarCat said:



			Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.
		
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Golf is never a game of life or death so does that mean you should look the other way when other rules are broken? 

Example; your playing partner is in a 6 foot deep bunker and is up against the front wall. There is seemlingly no chance of them getting on to the green, let alone near the flag. They manage to hit a phenomenal bunker shot which finishes inches from the cup, BUT they accidentally hit the ball twice as the club head moved past the ball through the sand. 

They didn't mean to do it. did the second brushing of the ball reflect the path of the ball so much that it actually made a difference to where the shot finished? 

Also - if I was playing against someone who had 15 clubs in their bag and I let them get away with it and therefore got disqualified, how bad would I feel if my mistake cost my team the win? 

And does Tiger's drop at the Masters fit in to this category for you? How much of an advantage did he really get by dropping his ball 3 feet away from his original position? Probably not a lot, if any (although I am sure some would argue there was an advantage). But did he break a rule? and was he penalised for it? Yes to both


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## evahakool (Feb 25, 2014)

I play in a family run society every year,a few years ago my brother and I were just about to tee of on the 12th hole when I noticed he had 15 clubs in his bag,we were both in contention of winning.Told him the rule and he never had any idea of this rule,worring thing was he had been playing in another society all season with 15 clubs.

As it was a family society I let it go,but if it happened in a proper competition I would certainly have made sure the proper penalty was applied.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 25, 2014)

You have to invoke the penalty. End of. Golf at our level isn't win at all costs, or at least shouldn't be and its not life and death. However as others have eloquently pointed out it is arguably the one game where rulings aren't discretionary (ref/umpires decision is arbitrary and based on opinion). If I was on the receiving end, while I wouldn't be happy it would just motivate me. If I lost then my mistake my comeuppance.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 25, 2014)

delc said:



			Once discovered the player has to declare the extra club out of use for the rest of the round to his opponent or marker.  Effective penalty is loss of two holes in matchplay, or 4 strokes in stroke play (2 at each of the first two holes). If he uses the club again during the round it's a DQ.

*By the way, Ian Woosnam once threw a very nice new driver into the bushes when he found he had too many clubs in his bag during the last round of an Open Championship when he was well in contention, until the 4 stroke penalty was added. He had being trying out a couple of drivers on the range and his caddie had forgotten to remove the unwanted one from his bag. I believe that the caddie was sacked shortly afterwards*!
		
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Thanks for reminding me. As soon as I had put the phone down following a rash decision to speak to William Hill to pledge some of my hard earned on Woosie's  abilities - there it was, a *2 shot* penalty and my dough was done before another stoke was made.


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## TheClaw (Feb 25, 2014)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			Thanks for reminding me. As soon as I had put the phone down following a rash decision to speak to William Hill to pledge some of my hard earned on Woosie's  abilities - there it was, a *2 shot* penalty and my dough was done before another stoke was made.
		
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I think William Hill should have paid out. After all, it wasn't your fault that Woosie had 15 clubs


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## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 25, 2014)

TheClaw said:



			I think William Hill should have paid out. After all, it wasn't your fault that Woosie had 15 clubs 

Click to expand...

You don't work for Paddy Power do you? That's the sort of thing that they do.

Thanks for the sympathy anyway.


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Slightly off topic... so if I have 15 clubs and I'm three holes in and notice I get a 4 shot penalty, maximum of 2 holes. Can I then continue on with 15 clubs to the end of the round, or do I have to declare one "not in play" straight away? 

If I notice at the end of the round, I would get the same penalty but would have possibly used all 15 clubs in my round (ok no way a 4 shot advantage) but if you are going to check how many clubs in your bag then obviously do it before the round, but if not, don't start checking after the second hole! Or have I got it wrong?

I guess if you notice after the result is called (i.e. next time you go to play golf) then the result stands...or?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2014)

richart said:



			Which rules do you intend to play by, and which ones are you going to ignore ?
		
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Correct - you are not allowed to ignore the rules - regardless


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			Slightly off topic... so if I have 15 clubs and I'm three holes in and notice I get a 4 shot penalty, maximum of 2 holes. Can I then continue on with 15 clubs to the end of the round, or do I have to declare one "not in play" straight away? 

If I notice at the end of the round, I would get the same penalty but would have possibly used all 15 clubs in my round (ok no way a 4 shot advantage) but if you are going to check how many clubs in your bag then obviously do it before the round, but if not, don't start checking after the second hole! Or have I got it wrong?

I guess if you notice after the result is called (i.e. next time you go to play golf) then the result stands...or?
		
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Nope. Sufficient clubs must be declared 'out of play' so that only 14 are available for use. Subsequent use of one declared out of play results in DQ.

And you are correct about the result standing. Important to get result posted in a timely fashion too. Apparently 2 early finishing competitors (locals) were something like 8 pints into post match conviviality when it was discovered - and the result hadn't been posted! They staggered out to somewhere like the 16th hole to resume!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You don't apply a penalty, he does. But he must. The questions of whether it is a honest mistake and/or an advantage gained or not are irrelevant. Penalties may apply from entirely unintentional actions, such as a rebounding ball hitting your body or golf bag. Pure fluke and chance event, but a penalty. 

If you agree to waive it, you are both DQ'd.
		
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Which really should be the last word on the matter.


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## Airlie_Andy (Feb 26, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Nope. Sufficient clubs must be declared 'out of play' so that only 14 are available for use. Subsequent use of one declared out of play results in DQ.

And you are correct about the result standing. Important to get result posted in a timely fashion too. Apparently 2 early finishing competitors (locals) were something like 8 pints into post match conviviality when it was discovered - and the result hadn't been posted! They staggered out to somewhere like the 16th hole to resume!
		
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I think what the poster is suggesting is that someone who counts his clubs on the 3rd tee and discovers he has 15 clubs must declare one of those clubs out of play. However if you count your clubs on the 18th green you get exactly the same penalty with the added benefit of having had 15 clubs available to you for the full round.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 26, 2014)

This would never happen to me, I only own 14 clubs


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			I think what the poster is suggesting is that someone who counts his clubs on the 3rd tee and discovers he has 15 clubs must declare one of those clubs out of play. However if you count your clubs on the 18th green you get exactly the same penalty with the added benefit of having had 15 clubs available to you for the full round.
		
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Indeed!

I got so engrossed in relating that story that I forgot to make that comment.

Count them before the round! Or don't bother counting them at all - at least not after the 2nd tee! 

Morals notwithstanding of course!


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

I often have 15/16 clubs in my bag. As long as you declare the extra clubs to your fc and dont use them its all ok


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## Spuddy (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			I often have 15/16 clubs in my bag. As long as you declare the extra clubs to your fc and dont use them its all ok
		
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  If you are carrying the clubs then you're in breach of the rule


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2014)

you 



hovis said:



			I often have 15/16 clubs in my bag. As long as you declare the extra clubs to your fc and dont use them its all ok
		
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So you declare at the outset the clubs you are not going to use and that's OK?  If this were OK then just on basic practicalities how does anyone police you on that?  Also say you carry two putters and that makes 15 clubs, and you declare you are not going to use one of them and identify the one you are not going to use, ,and half way round your putter breaks.  I think you will be expecting to be able to use your substitute putter!  After all it's only a game isn't it?


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed!

I got so engrossed in relating that story that I forgot to make that comment.

Count them before the round! Or don't bother counting them at all - at least not after the 2nd tee! 

Morals notwithstanding of course!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks... on the morals front it's a little suspect of course... 

I've got to say I would never look in an opponents bag and start counting... I guess most people know as soon as they take a grab at that spare lob wedge in the bag that they've made a bit of mistake and not taken it out... I wonder how many people just keep quiet..


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## Picto (Feb 26, 2014)

Lets all be honest, how we would have dealt with the OP's situation, would have depended on how good looking your FC's wife is


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			you 

So you declare at the outset the clubs you are not going to use and that's OK?  If this were OK then just on basic practicalities how does anyone police you on that?  Also say you carry two putters and that makes 15 clubs, and you declare you are not going to use one of them and identify the one you are not going to use, ,and half way round your putter breaks.  I think you will be expecting to be able to use your substitute putter!  After all it's only a game isn't it?
		
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It is difficult to police but still doesn't change the fact that you can declare additional clubs


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## North Mimms (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			It is difficult to police but still doesn't change the fact that you can declare additional clubs
		
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Why carry 16 clubs if you only can use 14 of them?


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## Spuddy (Feb 26, 2014)

Hovis, you might want to have a look at decision 4-4c/1 ...


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			I often have 15/16 clubs in my bag. As long as you declare the extra clubs to your fc and dont use them its all ok
		
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You might want to check the rules on that. You aren't permitted to start a round with more than 14 clubs. Rule 4-4c covers the declaration of excess clubs after the round has started and carries the penalties discussed here. There is nothing in the rules that says you can start the round with more than 14 clubs, even if you say you won't use them.

Rule 4-4c decision 1 covers it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2014)

...and how many comps or swindles/roll-ups have you won when carrying more than 14 clubs?  Ooops!


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Why carry 16 clubs if you only can use 14 of them?
		
Click to expand...

I sometimes use the range before i tee off and have two spare clubs that i solely use on the range. I keep them in my bag to save a trip back to the car.  My information on it being ok as long as you declare them comes from a chat i had with peter cowen

Also, would this mean that if you were in a comp with 14 clubs in your bag and you found a wedge on the fringe of the green and put it in your bag for safe keeping then you suffer penalty strokes


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you declare at the outset the clubs you are not going to use and that's OK?  If this were OK then just on basic practicalities how does anyone police you on that?  Also say you carry two putters and that makes 15 clubs, and you declare you are not going to use one of them and identify the one you are not going to use, ,and half way round your putter breaks.  I think you will be expecting to be able to use your substitute putter!  After all it's only a game isn't it?
		
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Notwithstanding that it's a breach, policing is done the same way as if it was discovered later in the round!

And it's fine to replace the broken putter with a club declared out of play - Decision 4-4c/2 - the replacement can be with 'any' club.



hovis said:



			I sometimes use the range before i tee off and have two spare clubs that i solely use on the range. I keep them in my bag to save a trip back to the car.  My information on it being ok as long as you declare them comes from a chat i had with peter cowen
		
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Just shows why it never pays to accept a Pro's advice on Rules! For a start, they can misinterpret the question and you can misinterpret their reply! And what is ok/breach when you check, may turn out to be a breach/ok in the future!


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## Spuddy (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			I sometimes use the range before i tee off and have two spare clubs that i solely use on the range. I keep them in my bag to save a trip back to the car.  My information on it being ok as long as you declare them comes from a chat i had with peter cowen

Also, would this mean that if you were in a comp with 14 clubs in your bag and you found a wedge on the fringe of the green and put it in your bag for safe keeping then you suffer penalty strokes
		
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It's a good thing he's a decent coach then as he wouldn't make a good rules official!  You can recover found clubs without penalty. 
*
4-4a/8*

*Retrieving Another Player's Lost Club*

*Q.*A player carrying 14 clubs found another player's club on the course. He picked up the lost club, put it in his bag but did not use it, and handed it in at the pro shop when the round was completed. Was the player in breach of Rule 4-4afor carrying 15 clubs?[h=2][/h]*A.*No.


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## Dave3498 (Feb 26, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			Good point. Max penalty is 2 holes and the penalty isn't loss of hole it's adjustment of the score in match play. 

So if player A who had 15 clubs was 2UP standing on the 3rd green and also went on to win the 3rd hole the match stands as 1UP to player A not 3UP or even 2UP to player B. 

At the same time if player B was 2UP and won the 3rd hole he would now be 5UP after 3 holes played. /QUOTE]

So the match could finish on the 9th. where he would be 11 up with 9 to play, an 11 & 9 win.
		
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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 26, 2014)

Tut Tut Hovis, I would be really annoyed now and strip you of any victories you have had over me... Hang on there have been none :whoo:


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## rosecott (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			I often have 15/16 clubs in my bag. As long as you declare the extra clubs to your fc and dont use them its all ok
		
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I'll be checking your bag on Sunday.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			I often have 15/16 clubs in my bag. As long as you declare the extra clubs to your fc and dont use them its all ok
		
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Is this during qualifying competitions ? 

If so then you should be DQed from everyone


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## rosecott (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this during qualifying competitions ? 

If so then you should be DQed from everyone
		
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Steady on, we'll tell him after the Sunday round at Woodhall.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)

Dave3498 said:





palindromicbob said:



			Good point. Max penalty is 2 holes and the penalty isn't loss of hole it's adjustment of the score in match play. 

So if player A who had 15 clubs was 2UP standing on the 3rd green and also went on to win the 3rd hole the match stands as 1UP to player A not 3UP or even 2UP to player B. 

At the same time if player B was 2UP and won the 3rd hole he would now be 5UP after 3 holes played. /QUOTE]

So the match could finish on the 9th. where he would be 11 up with 9 to play, an 11 & 9 win.
		
Click to expand...


Technically yes.
		
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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 26, 2014)

rosecott said:



			I'll be checking your bag on Sunday.
		
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Don't be harsh on him he has to get his two chippers in there somewhere...


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this during qualifying competitions ? 

If so then you should be DQed from everyone
		
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Get a life phil, I'm surprised it took u this long to stick your nose in. Even so, max 4 stroke penalty and Only disqualified if you use one


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			Don't be harsh on him he has to get his two chippers in there somewhere...
		
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You say that but I've started chipping with my hybrid! Doesn't that make me just as bad


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## rosecott (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Get a life phil, I'm surprised it took u this long to stick your nose in. Even so, max 4 stroke penalty and Only disqualified if you use one
		
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You must be very confident starting with a 4-stroke deficit on Sunday.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

rosecott said:



			You must be very confident starting with a 4-stroke deficit on Sunday.
		
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If only.  Swing has gone awol. Im glad im teeing off last so you guys infront wont rip me to shreds. If the 2nd runs back along the 1st then watch out "seriously"


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this during qualifying competitions ? 

If so then you should be DQed from everyone
		
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thought if the results had been recorded and are in the books then you can't be DQ'd after the event... Or did I get that wrong... Or were you just pulling his leg?


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			thought if the results had been recorded and are in the books then you can't be DQ'd after the event... Or did I get that wrong... Or were you just pulling his leg?
		
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You have to have a sense of humor to pull someone's leg


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Get a life phil, I'm surprised it took u this long to stick your nose in. Even so, max 4 stroke penalty and Only disqualified if you use one
		
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Think maybe you should learn the rules of the game. 

Agains have you carried more clubs than what is allowed in qualifying comps ? If so I would suggest you speak to your comp secretary about your rule breaks and I hope you didn't win any comps when carrying the clubs - would suggest heading prizes back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			thought if the results had been recorded and are in the books then you can't be DQ'd after the event... Or did I get that wrong... Or were you just pulling his leg?
		
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I was to start with but not so much now 

The poster has clearly broken the rules of the game and needs to correct that

Him throwing insults at me won't hide it


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think maybe you should learn the rules of the game. 

Agains have you carried more clubs than what is allowed in qualifying comps ? If so I would suggest you speak to your comp secretary about your rule breaks and I hope you didn't win any comps when carrying the clubs - would suggest heading prizes back.
		
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Know the rules? You thought it was a dq for having extra clubs!  Only if you use them!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Know the rules? You thought it was a dq for having extra clubs!  Only if you use them!
		
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Will ask again 

Did you carry 16 clubs in a qualifying comp and if so have you made the comps sec aware of your infraction ?

Having a go at me doesn't change the fact it's you in the wrong


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will ask again 

Did you carry 16 clubs in a qualifying comp and if so have you made the comps sec aware of your infraction ?

Having a go at me doesn't change the fact it's you in the wrong
		
Click to expand...

Im not saying I'm not wrong. Im saying if your going to letchure me on not knowing the rules then you should know them, and as i dont use the range before comps i will say no.  

Let me ask you a question, your playing a fc in a friendly match play for Â£20. He beats you on the 18th green and as your handing your cash over you see 16 clubs in his bag, two of them are old and where clearly not used durring the round. What would you do?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Him throwing insults at me won't hide it
		
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No but that it just shows you've made upsetting people on here an art form. So brave behind a keyboard


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No but that it just shows you've made upsetting people on here an art form. So brave behind a keyboard
		
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I see Liverpoolphil has another fan. First pints on me homer!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No but that it just shows you've made upsetting people on here an art form. So brave behind a keyboard
		
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Brave ? Nah not brave - I do ensure I'm consistent on social media though - how about you ?

As for upsetting people Homer - do you really want to talk about your wedge competition and some young lad you drove away from the forum - glass houses pal


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Im not saying I'm not wrong. Im saying if your going to letchure me on not knowing the rules then you should know them, and as i dont use the range before comps i will say no.  

Let me ask you a question, your playing a fc in a friendly match play for Â£20. He beats you on the 18th green and as your handing your cash over you see 16 clubs in his bag, two of them are old and where clearly not used durring the round. What would you do?
		
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I wouldn't give him the Â£20 - simple as that.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Brave ? Nah not brave - I do ensure I'm consistent on social media though - how about you ?
		
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I would guarantee that homer has more likes on here than you phil.  But your right, you are consistent


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wouldn't give him the Â£20 - simple as that.
		
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Then chill out


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Then chill out
		
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I was chilled - you were the one throwing the threats around :thup:


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will ask again 

Did you carry 16 clubs in a qualifying comp and if so have you made the comps sec aware of your infraction ?

Having a go at me doesn't change the fact it's you in the wrong
		
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Based on what I have read so far any comps he has played in are now closed so nothing much can be done. Rule 34-1 in case you are interested.

What appears to have happened here is applying rule 4-4c without taking the wording of rule 4-4a into full consideration.  Specifically "The player must not start a stipulated round with more than fourteen clubs." 

I'm sure now that the breech has been pointed out to Hovis he will, in future, carry the stipulated 14 clubs and if not he can take the 2 shot penalty and declared the additional clubs out of play before teeing off on the 2nd. 

Fact is, yes he breech a rule but he did *NOT* cheat.


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will ask again 

Did you carry 16 clubs in a qualifying comp and if so have you made the comps sec aware of your infraction ?

Having a go at me doesn't change the fact it's you in the wrong
		
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Why does the comps sec need to be made aware... Think, although not 100% verified on r&a site, that rule 34-1 states that "In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced"

Unless the rules was knowingly broken, which wasn't the case here (in my opinion)...


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			Why does the comps sec need to be made aware... Think, although not 100% verified on r&a site, that rule 34-1 states that "In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced"

Unless the rules was knowingly broken, which wasn't the case here (in my opinion)...
		
Click to expand...

oops, see I was beaten to it!


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			I'm sure now that the breech has been pointed out to Hovis he will, in future, carry the stipulated 14 clubs and if not he can take the 2 shot penalty and declared the additional clubs out of play before teeing off on the 2nd. 

Fact is, yes he breech a rule but he did *NOT* cheat.
		
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Thinking of it. The 1st tee is so far from the club house and car park that if i found i had an extra club then i think i'd rather take the penalty Than walk back


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			Based on what I have read so far any comps he has played in are now closed so nothing much can be done. Rule 34-1 in case you are interested.

What appears to have happened here is applying rule 4-4c without taking the wording of rule 4-4a into full consideration.  Specifically "The player must not start a stipulated round with more than fourteen clubs." 

I'm sure now that the breech has been pointed out to Hovis he will, in future, carry the stipulated 14 clubs and if not he can take the 2 shot penalty and declared the additional clubs out of play before teeing off on the 2nd. 

Fact is, yes he breech a rule but he did *NOT* cheat.
		
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Never said he cheated - but integrity comes into question for me hence why I would speak to the comp sec

He could have possibly won comps and money from other people when clearly breaking the rules.

Golf is a game of self regulation and trust 

I didn't realise that one day I miss counted a score on a medal as did my FC - two days later I realised and spoke to the comp sec and even though I won I DQ'ed myself. I felt it was the right thing to do. The game is built on the rules being self governed.

My initial statement about DQ was said in jest but speaking to the comp sec if taken 16 clubs in a qualifying comp is IMO the right thing to do


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

I agree its breaking the rules but whats the harm when no advantage over anyone in the field was gained. The club are rusty and old. Whats the harm? Hense my question about your Â£20 match play. Why would i give prizes back when the said clubs didnt move an inch. If i said to the sec " i declared two clubs before my round started because i couldn't be bother to walk to my car and i've just found this to be wrong" he laugh in my face and tell me to get a grip


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never said he cheated - but integrity comes into question for me hence why I would speak to the comp sec

He could have possibly won comps and money from other people when clearly breaking the rules.

Golf is a game of self regulation and trust 

I didn't realise that one day I miss counted a score on a medal as did my FC - two days later I realised and spoke to the comp sec and *even though I won I DQ'ed myself.* I felt it was the right thing to do.* The game is built on the rules being self governed*.

My initial statement about DQ was said in jest but speaking to the comp sec if taken 16 clubs in a qualifying comp is IMO the right thing to do
		
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Sounds like you didn't follow the rules though... If the results were published you aren't allowed to DQ yourself...or maybe changing a penalty isn't allowed but a DQ is??


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			I agree its breaking the rules but whats the harm when no advantage over anyone in the field was gained. The club are rusty and old. Whats the harm? Hense my question about your Â£20 match play. Why would i give prizes back when the said clubs didnt move an inch. If i said to the sec " i declared two clubs before my round started because i couldn't be bother to walk to my car and i've just found this to be wrong" he laugh in my face and tell me to get a grip
		
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Any other rules that should be just ignored because there is "No Harm" 

The harm is a rule has been broken - if you're not bothered about this rule then where does it stop ?

Sorry but you only have to see Woosies reaction to see the harm it can do

You are only allowed 14 clubs in your bag at the start of a round - it's a simple basic rule that must be adhered to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			Sounds like you didn't follow the rules though... If the results were published you aren't allowed to DQ yourself...or maybe changing a penalty isn't allowed but a DQ is??
		
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I didn't feel right winning a comp when I clearly didn't.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Any other rules that should be just ignored because there is "No Harm" 

The harm is a rule has been broken - if you're not bothered about this rule then where does it stop ?

Sorry but you only have to see Woosies reaction to see the harm it can do

You are only allowed 14 clubs in your bag at the start of a round - it's a simple basic rule that must be adhered to.
		
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So if you feel so strong about it then why pay out if you lost to a fc with 16 clubs. You cant have it both ways


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never said he cheated - but integrity comes into question for me hence why I would speak to the comp sec
		
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Bit rich, calling the integrity of a golfer you've never met into question.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't feel right winning a comp when I clearly didn't.
		
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What would yoy do if when putting you bag in your car you noticed an old putter in the side pocket of your bag?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bit rich, calling the integrity of a golfer you've never met into question.
		
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Noticed you didn't answer my previous post Homer


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			So if you feel so strong about it then why pay out if you lost to a fc with 16 clubs. You cant have it both ways
		
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I wouldn't pay out - hence why I said I wouldn't give him the Â£20


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			What would yoy do if when putting you bag in your car you noticed an old putter in the side pocket of your bag?
		
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It wouldn't happen because I know the rule and only ever have 14 clubs - don't have any old putter etc


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bit rich, calling the integrity of a golfer you've never met into question.
		
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If having no integrity means letting it slide when a fc clearly has a club in his bag that he's not using and has even declared it before we teed off then i'd rather fly the flag of having no integrity than having people no longer wanting to play with me becasuse im a stick in the mud


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It wouldn't happen because I know the rule and only ever have 14 clubs - don't have any old putter etc
		
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Sorry i thought you said you would pay out (my mistake). As for my question, humor me! Lets say it happened


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't feel right winning a comp when I clearly didn't.
		
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in my opinion that's fair enough...but as far as I can tell you broke the rules of golf by DQ'ing yourself... Again you can't have it both ways... If you stick to the rules then Hovis shouldn't be looking to take back any qualifiers or wins he might have had. I'm also guessing his conscience is quiet clear as he didn't intentionally break the rule and didn't use the club so had no benefit.


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## Spuddy (Feb 26, 2014)

Hovis, if you've declared your extra clubs to your FC and you do nothing then you're both liable to get DQ'ed. This came up in another thread where we were discussing the waiving of rules.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			in my opinion that's fair enough...but as far as I can tell you broke the rules of golf by DQ'ing yourself... Again you can't have it both ways... If you stick to the rules then Hovis shouldn't be looking to take back any qualifiers or wins he might have had. I'm also guessing his conscience is quiet clear as he didn't intentionally break the rule and didn't use the club so had no benefit.
		
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Oh Im sure his conscience is clear - as he suggests - it's a rule break but "no harm" 

I have no idea on comp rules etc - this 4 years ago and the result wasn't on the PC.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Sorry i thought you said you would pay out (my mistake). As for my question, humor me! Lets say it happened
		
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It wouldn't but if I broke a rule then I would apply the relevant penalty on myself 

Would you not say anything a take the win ?


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			Hovis, if you've declared your extra clubs to your FC and you do nothing then you're both liable to get DQ'ed. This came up in another thread where we were discussing the waiving of rules.
		
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Is only a dq if you use the declared clubs


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never said he cheated - but integrity comes into question for me hence why I would speak to the comp sec

He could have possibly won comps and money from other people when clearly breaking the rules.

Golf is a game of self regulation and trust 

I didn't realise that one day I miss counted a score on a medal as did my FC - two days later I realised and spoke to the comp sec and even though I won I DQ'ed myself. I felt it was the right thing to do. The game is built on the rules being self governed.

My initial statement about DQ was said in jest but speaking to the comp sec if taken 16 clubs in a qualifying comp is IMO the right thing to do
		
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Admirable as the self DQ was your breech had gained you an advantage over the field. Hovis's breech didn't. 

Look beyond the rules and consider the intention of Hovis.  

The rules themselves consider intention when considering penalty by usually having a 1 stroke penalty for a accidental act which may gain advantage and a 2 stroke for deliberate or preventable action which may gain an advantage.

 Hovis was obviously aware that he could not *play* more than 14 clubs hence he declared excess out of play and didn't use them. What he appears to have been unaware of is the exact wording in that you can not *start *a round with more than 14.

I am not standing up for the tone taken in some of this interchange I'm just playing devils advocate and trying to highlight that it isn't necessarily as black and white as it may appear to you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Is only a dq if you use the declared clubs
		
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Actually if you break the rule and "not" apply the relevant penalty then you should be DQ'ed


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			Hovis, if you've declared your extra clubs to your FC and you do nothing then you're both liable to get DQ'ed. This came up in another thread where we were discussing the waiving of rules.
		
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I think you can only agree to waive if everyone knows there was a breach of the rules.... I get the impression in this case that nobody was clear of the the rule or at least didn't say "it's against the rules, but we'll let it slide" so for me... No DQ.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It wouldn't but if I broke a rule then I would apply the relevant penalty on myself 

Would you not say anything a take the win ?
		
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If i found out when emptying my bag that there was a small putter in there that i didnt know about then yes, i would take the win with a clear conscience too

Im amazed that you wouldnt pay out for losing.


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## Spuddy (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis, rule 1-3.

[h=2][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules[/FONT][/h][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred. 
[/FONT]
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3:[/FONT]*
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Match play â€“ Disqualification of both sides;
Stroke play â€“ Disqualification of competitors concerned.[/FONT]*


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh Im sure his conscience is clear - as he suggests - it's a rule break but "no harm" 

I have no idea on comp rules etc - this 4 years ago and the result wasn't on the PC.
		
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fair enough... If the results weren't published then there was no breach of the rules on your part in regards to DQ'ing yourself. Hovis though can't DQ himself now though unless it can be established that his FC and him agreed to waive the rule... Doesn't seem to be the case to me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			I think you can only agree to waive if everyone knows there was a breach of the rules.... I get the impression in this case that nobody was clear of the the rule or at least didn't say "it's against the rules, but we'll let it slide" so for me... No DQ.
		
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I'm afraid that's wrong - if you know a rule has been broken then a penalty must be applied


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Is only a dq if you use the declared clubs
		
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Nope what Spuddy is pointing out is that the FC acceptance of you declaring them out of play prior to the round is a breech of 1-3 because it is effectively an agreement to waive rule 4-4a. This would be DQ.

It has been (or should have been) made clear that your application of 4-4c is misguided and incorrect. It only applies when the breech has been discovered after a round has started.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			hovis, rule 1-3.

[h=2][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules[/FONT][/h][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred. 
[/FONT]
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3:[/FONT]*
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Match play â€“ Disqualification of both sides;
Stroke play â€“ Disqualification of competitors concerned.[/FONT]*

Click to expand...

But if a fc didnt understand the rules surely he cant be DQ'd


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			If i found out when emptying my bag that there was a small putter in there that i didnt know about then yes, i would take the win with a clear conscience too

Im amazed that you wouldnt pay out for losing.
		
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How the heck can you have a club in your bag that "you didn't know about"

And I wouldn't pay out to someone who hadn't applied the relevant penalty to himself when breaking a rule.

Sorry I know it's quite hard to comprehend for you but I play by the rules set out by our governing body - I dont pick and chose which rules to follow depending on the "harm" they are


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## virtuocity (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How the heck can you have a club in your bag that "you didn't know about"
		
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Took my lad to the putting green one time and stuck his putter in my putter well and forgot about it.  Carried it around the next time I played and didn't realise until I was on the 4th.  Was playing alone so didn't matter.  I didn't penalise myself either


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Took my lad to the putting green one time and stuck his putter in my putter well and forgot about it.  Carried it around the next time I played and didn't realise until I was on the 4th.  Was playing alone so didn't matter.  I didn't penalise myself either 

Click to expand...

How big was it 

Did you manage to get yours in as well


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm afraid that's wrong - if you know a rule has been broken then a penalty must be applied
		
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Who knew the rule had been broken?


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## Liqdaddymac (Feb 26, 2014)

I get around this by letting my mate who only uses 12 clubs carry my driver for me and I just "borrow" it when required - means I can carry an extra wedge.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How the heck can you have a club in your bag that "you didn't know about"

And I wouldn't pay out to someone who hadn't applied the relevant penalty to himself when breaking a rule.

Sorry I know it's quite hard to comprehend for you but I play by the rules set out by our governing body - I dont pick and chose which rules to follow depending on the "harm" they are
		
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I used the e,g above as my friend left his little lads putter in his side pocket and thought it would be a good example.  I know you play the rules phil. Thats quite clear.  But having done something that bears no advantage to me in the field makes my conscience clear.  If i had a friend that pulled me for having a spare club i didnt use and refused to pay out would no longer be playing golf with me. And i think i can saflely say the majority of this forum would agree


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			But if a fc didnt understand the rules surely he cant be DQ'd
		
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Yup and actually neither could you at the time. Although now you could be


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			Yup and actually neither could you at the time. Although now you could be 

Click to expand...

DAMN


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			hovis, rule 1-3.

*1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules*

Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred. 

*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3:*
*Match play â€“ Disqualification of both sides;
Stroke play â€“ Disqualification of competitors concerned.*

Click to expand...

makes sense, I wasn't there, but from the way Hovis tells it, there was no agreement to exclude or waive a rule. Nobody said, "we'll let it slide, we know the rule but will choose to ignore it"


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			I used the e,g above as my friend left his little lads putter in his side pocket and thought it would be a good example.  I know you play the rules phil. Thats quite clear.  But having done something that bears no advantage to me in the field makes my conscience clear.  If i had a friend that pulled me for having a spare club i didnt use and refused to pay out would no longer be playing golf with me. And i think i can saflely say the majority of this forum would agree
		
Click to expand...


I can safely say the majority of this forum wouldn't take out more than 14 clubs because they know one of the most basic rules in golf - so the situation wouldn't arise for the majority of the forum.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can safely say the majority of this forum wouldn't take out more than 14 clubs because they know one of the most basic rules in golf - so the situation wouldn't arise for the majority of the forum.
		
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Well i thought so too but a pro golf coach told me about the extra club rule and was clearly mistaken.  
With that in mind i still refuse to believe any normal person wouldnt pay out in the said circumstances. Scream "sore looser" to me


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## North Mimms (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm fascinated by why you should use clubs on the range that you don't use on the course.
Are they alignment aids?
Are the mats on the range damaging, so you want to protect your good clubs?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Well i thought so too but a pro golf coach told me about the extra club rule and was clearly mistaken.  
With that in mind i still refuse to believe any normal person wouldnt pay out in the said circumstances. Scream "sore looser" to me
		
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Why didn't you check the rule yourself ?

A rule is a rule - it's not up to you to decide which ones to follow

I would expect that when someone has broken a rule they apply the relevant penalty - that how golf is - we self govern the game and ensure the rules are followed. If you are willing to ignore this one - what else will you ignore because you believe it to be "no harm"

Even now you don't seem bothered - sorry but that doesn't sit right with me.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can safely say the majority of this forum wouldn't take out more than 14 clubs because they know one of the most basic rules in golf - so the situation wouldn't arise for the majority of the forum.
		
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I would also bet that a lot of club players, unaware of the exact wording of the rules, wouldn't consider it to be a breech for someone with more than 14 clubs to declare them out of play and not use them during the round.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I'm fascinated by why you should use clubs on the range that you don't use on the course.
Are they alignment aids?
Are the mats on the range damaging, so you want to protect your good clubs?
		
Click to expand...

I have quite a steep swing and have broken a few shafts in my time and i practice alot and dont want to add wear to my i20's.  But mostly my shafts are unique and almost impossible to replace. Would hate to snap one of them


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			I would also bet that a lot of club players, unaware of the exact wording of the rules, wouldn't consider it to be a breech for someone with more than 14 clubs to declare them out of play and not use them during the round.
		
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I agree


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			I would also bet that a lot of club players, unaware of the exact wording of the rules, wouldn't consider it to be a breech for someone with more than 14 clubs to declare them out of play and not use them during the round.
		
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I would suggest most would find out the exact wording when the offence took place to ensure they were ok - as opposed to blindly agreeing


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## Allanxyz (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A rule is a rule - it's not up to you to decide which ones to follow
		
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So you don't expect Hovis to DQ himself now (after results have been published)... He'd be breaking a rule if he did.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why didn't you check the rule yourself? 

Even now you don't seem bothered - sorry but that doesn't sit right with me.
		
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Because i dont claim to know it all phil and wouldn't see it necessary to check on the word of a top coach.

And as for not being bothered! I'm not. For me cheating is gaining some sort of advantage over competitors. Having an old putter in my bag doenst give me any edge at all. Rules or no rules.


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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 26, 2014)

I always have 17 clubs in my bag are you calling me a rule breaker too?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			So you don't expect Hovis to DQ himself now (after results have been published)... He'd be breaking a rule if he did.
		
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Will say it again - the original quote about DQ was said in jest. But handing back any prizes won - then yes I would suggest that


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## Liqdaddymac (Feb 26, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			I always have 17 clubs in my bag are you calling me a rule breaker too?
		
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orange or mint?


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would suggest most would find out the exact wording when the offence took place to ensure they were ok - as opposed to blindly agreeing
		
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Not everyone's like you phil. How do you check the rule on the 1st tee? Make all wait while you check your ruke book that you undoubtedly keep in your golf bag.  Most people just dont care phil.  You must be a right laugh on the course


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Because i dont claim to know it all phil and wouldn't see it necessary to check on the word of a top coach.

And as for not being bothered! I'm not. For me cheating is gaining some sort of advantage over competitors. Having an old putter in my bag doenst give me any edge at all. Rules or no rules.
		
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So you don't know it all so,why don't you check the rules then ?


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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 26, 2014)

Liqdaddymac said:



			orange or mint?
		
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Spoil sport!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			I always have 17 clubs in my bag are you calling me a rule breaker too?
		
Click to expand...


If they are golf clubs and if you start the game with them they yes you are breaking the rules


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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 26, 2014)

You all ruined my joke!!! I'm going to BED!!! :rant:


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liqdaddymac said:



			orange or mint?
		
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Durrr, i only just got that one!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Not everyone's like you phil. How do you check the rule on the 1st tee? Make all wait while you check your ruke book that you undoubtedly keep in your golf bag.  Most people just dont care phil.  You must be a right laugh on the course
		
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A right laugh because I follow the rules ? 

Do you have a smart phone ? And yes I do have a rule book just in case. 

I didn't realise following the rules of golf was looked down by some people - must be a new breed of golfer.


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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 26, 2014)

I had the pic ready and everything!!!


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## Liqdaddymac (Feb 26, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			You all ruined my joke!!! I'm going to BED!!! :rant:
		
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lol - I was literally just eating an orange club bar as you posted!


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## ger147 (Feb 26, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			I had the pic ready and everything!!!
		
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That's not on the conforming list!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			I had the pic ready and everything!!!
		
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It's been done before !! 1980 has called - it wants it's joke book back


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## Stuey01 (Feb 26, 2014)

Always struck me as a strange rule. Not the 14 club rule, the not being able to declare a club out of play before starting.Don't really understand why not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			Always struck me as a strange rule. Not the 14 club rule, the not being able to declare a club out of play before starting.Don't really understand why not.
		
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I'm guessing it will be because it's prob hard to enforce the rule ?

What's to stop the player using it when the FC isnt looking ?


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would suggest most would find out the exact wording when the offence took place to ensure they were ok - as opposed to blindly agreeing
		
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The fact the result of it would lead to no advantage to the person and no disadvantage to them or the rest of the field I doubt the want to find out the exact wording would cross the mind. 

When they did find out the exact reading they'd probably correct anyone but I put this to you. 

Player arrives to play in your four ball. Has been playing for a few months but he is still nervous on the first tee and this is his first medal. To avoid piling on the pressure you all decide to let him tee off last. 

He hits a peach of a drive down the middle of the fairway thanks to his new custom fit driver and you all trundle down the fairway. 

Having a chat you ask about his new club. He then points out how he had been preparing for the day last night at the range and was real proud of his 4 hybrid which he hits so much better than his 4i which he says he couldn't hit for toffee. 

At the end of 18 he has shot a PB thanks to the new 4 hybrid he is so happy with. Then you spot it, the old 4i. You know for a fact he never once used it but OH NO! He has 15 clubs. You point out that he should only have 14 and he tell's you that he had forgotten to take it out.

What do you do:

A: Sorry mate 15 clubs, 4 stroke penalty, you better learn the rules. 

B: Well be careful in future. The rules state you should only carry 14 but I know you never used that 4i the entire round.


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A right laugh because I follow the rules ? 

Do you have a smart phone ? And yes I do have a rule book just in case. 

I didn't realise following the rules of golf was looked down by some people - must be a new breed of golfer.
		
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Me and my pp where once paired up with a random guy. Â£5 to the highest stableford.  On thr 12th tee i said to my friend "oh i didnt notice you had a brand new driver, give us a smash" the look on the other guys face was amazing" when i hit his driver (into the Lake)  he demanded i blobbed the hole for using a fc club! I imagine you to be in that camp.  It just ent for me phil.  It just doesn't Matter


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## ger147 (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing it will be because it's prob hard to enforce the rule ?

What's to stop the player using it when the FC isnt looking ?
		
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Especially as you're not allowed to ask a FC what club he has just played a shot with.


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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 26, 2014)

It is a rule and no it shouldn't be broken but I'm sure we will all agree that there are rules being broken that give players huge advantages and most probably in every comp we enter. The game is jam packed with cheats and unfortunately we can't do a lot about it unless we are paired up with them and catch them doing so.

I only played in 4 comps last season but after seeing and hearing a few things I decided very early on that I will not be entering weeky comps to beat the field but solely for the purpose of beating myself and lowering my HCP. In Bigger comps like race to the Brabazon that the Belfry do on the other hand I will try to beat the field and the cheats that come with it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

palindromicbob said:



			The fact the result of it would lead to no advantage to the person and no disadvantage to them or the rest of the field I doubt the want to find out the exact wording would cross the mind. 

When they did find out the exact reading they'd probably correct anyone but I put this to you. 

Player arrives to play in your four ball. Has been playing for a few months but he is still nervous on the first tee and this is his first medal. To avoid piling on the pressure you all decide to let him tee off last. 

He hits a peach of a drive down the middle of the fairway thanks to his new custom fit driver and you all trundle down the fairway. 

Having a chat you ask about his new club. He then points out how he had been preparing for the day last night at the range and was real proud of his 4 hybrid which he hits so much better than his 4i which he says he couldn't hit for toffee. 

At the end of 18 he has shot a PB thanks to the new 4 hybrid he is so happy with. Then you spot it, the old 4i. You know for a fact he never once used it but OH NO! He has 15 clubs. You point out that he should only have 14 and he tell's you that he had forgotten to take it out.

What do you do:

A: Sorry mate 15 clubs, 4 stroke penalty, you better learn the rules. 

B: Well be careful in future. The rules state you should only carry 14 but I know you never used that 4i the entire round.
		
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Sorry it maybe harsh but it would be a penalty if in a qualifying comp


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Me and my pp where once paired up with a random guy. Â£5 to the highest stableford.  On thr 12th tee i said to my friend "oh i didnt notice you had a brand new driver, give us a smash" the look on the other guys face was amazing" when i hit his driver (into the Lake)  he demanded i blobbed the hole for using a fc club! I imagine you to be in that camp.  It just ent for me phil.  It just doesn't Matter
		
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In what camp ? The one that follows the rules ? 

Sorry didnt realise following the rules of golf was sneered upon


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## hovis (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In what camp ? The one that follows the rules ? 

Sorry didnt realise following the rules of golf was sneered upon
		
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Im suprised to even enjoy the game.


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## Stuey01 (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing it will be because it's prob hard to enforce the rule ?

What's to stop the player using it when the FC isnt looking ?
		
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Same thing that stops me from leather wedging it to a better lie when my FC's back is turned.

I'm not getting involved in the debate that's raging in this thread. Just don't really get this particular rule. I also understand how someone could misinterpret it, I have myself, though thankfully only in a friendly game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

hovis said:



			Im suprised to even enjoy the game.
		
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Why would you be surprised ?

Following the rules doesn't mean it's not enjoyable ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			Same thing that stops me from leather wedging it to a better lie when my FC's back is turned.

I'm not getting involved in the debate that's raging in this thread. Just don't really get this particular rule. I also understand how someone could misinterpret it, I have myself, though thankfully only in a friendly game.
		
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The problem is not everyone is like that unfortunatly


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## Stuey01 (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The problem is not everyone is like that unfortunatly
		
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Maybe, but if someone is going to cheat, then they are going to cheat, and using a 15th club that they previously declared out of play is probably the least of your worries.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			Maybe, but if someone is going to cheat, then they are going to cheat, and using a 15th club that they previously declared out of play is probably the least of your worries.
		
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Oh I know - but at the very least eliminate the temptation and risk


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## palindromicbob (Feb 26, 2014)




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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2014)

Well, that was a fun read!

FWIW.

@Hovis. You broke the rule, but as all the comps are closed, you've 'got away with it'. You might consider passing any prizes back, but I don't believe it's obligatory. Make sure you only have 14 clubs in the bag in future - and don't trust what Pros tell you about the Rules.

@LPPhil I think you screwed up stating Hovis he needed to DQ himself from the closed comps, but otherwise your integrity is fine. I'd also give back the prize. You can't DQ yourself though. That's for the Committee to do, but it should do so - even after the comp is closed - under 34-1b(iii) if the 'miscount' was because he 'returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred'.

@Homer Stop sniping! The bitterness it displays does you no credit! 

@Alanxyz Tough for a player to 'break a Rule' after the comp is closed. And, if 34-1-b(iii) applies, Committee DQs LPPhil, but not Hovis.

As for the Â£20 match. I believe it depends where the players were when the extra club(s) were discovered. If they have not left the 18th Green, then Match Result hasn't been 'posted', even if they have shaken hands, so the Penalty applies. If they have (collected their clubs and) left the 18th Green, then the Match Result is 'posted' and no Penalty. That of course means that if LPPhil subsequently discovers that spare Putter, no Penalty. I'd think he should buy the first couple of rounds though!

There is no moral dilemna about gaining an advantage by following the Rules. There certainly is, even if there is 'no harm' or you don't gain an advantage, if you don't follow the Rules. And as LPPhil states, that means ANY Rule.  

Oh and forgot this one!

@palindromicbob IDGAFWYTE! :ears: :rofl:


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## backwoodsman (Feb 27, 2014)

Liqdaddymac said:



			I get around this by letting my mate who only uses 12 clubs carry my driver for me and I just "borrow" it when required - means I can carry an extra wedge.
		
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Joking, surely? 

If not, you need to have a better read of 4-4 I fear


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## Allanxyz (Feb 27, 2014)

It's pretty much impossible to know all the rules and the pros who do this for a living make mistakes and often have to ask advice... I'm pretty sure most people out there think they are playing by the rule, even if it's not technically always the case. 

It's a hobby, a good understanding of the rules should be there but if you've been told by a pro about a certain rule incorrectly and it gives you no advantage then I don't see this as a massive problem... As long as you change your behaviour once you find out the rule is incorrect.


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## chrisd (Feb 27, 2014)

To be fair though, holier than thou we all are, and quite a Rules man I am, but I didn't know that declaring an extra club before the round and not using it is still a penalty! I have told playing partners that I've got an extra club in bounce games a few times after coming from the range and wouldn't have ever thought to check the rules as I knew you could declare the extra club, shows that we don't, and can't know everything!


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## guest100718 (Feb 27, 2014)

chrisd said:



			To be fair though, holier than thou we all are, and quite a Rules man I am, but I didn't know that declaring an extra club before the round and not using it is still a penalty! I have told playing partners that I've got an extra club in bounce games a few times after coming from the range and wouldn't have ever thought to check the rules as I knew you could declare the extra club, shows that we don't, and can't know everything!
		
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Surely as a referee you would know all about the rules.....


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## Allanxyz (Feb 27, 2014)

chrisd said:



			To be fair though, holier than thou we all are, and quite a Rules man I am, but I didn't know that declaring an extra club before the round and not using it is still a penalty! I have told playing partners that I've got an extra club in bounce games a few times after coming from the range and wouldn't have ever thought to check the rules as I knew you could declare the extra club, shows that we don't, and can't know everything!
		
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Quite agree... imagine someone could view back all our qualifiers over our lifetimes and looked at it from a rules point of view, apart from a fair few bad shots they'd see... I'm pretty confident most, if not all, would have unknowingly broken the rules at some point...

It happens, we should take reasonable steps to avoid it, but I'm not going to be studying the rule book daily that's for sure.


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## rosecott (Feb 27, 2014)

Liqdaddymac said:



			I get around this by letting my mate who only uses 12 clubs carry my driver for me and I just "borrow" it when required - means I can carry an extra wedge.
		
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backwoodsman said:



			Joking, surely? 

If not, you need to have a better read of 4-4 I fear
		
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I couldn't make up my mind if he was joking or not but, in case he was serious:

4-4. Maximum of Fourteen Clubs 
a. Selection and Addition of Clubs 
The player must not start a stipulated round with more than fourteen clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than fourteen clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed fourteen. 
The addition of a club or clubs must not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7) and the player must not add or borrow any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course or by assembling components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round. 

4-4a/16
Status of Additional Clubs Being Carried for Player and of Person Carrying Them
Q.A player begins his stipulated round with ten clubs carried by his caddie. The player has also asked another person to walk along with the group and carry eight more clubs. During the round, the player intends to add from the clubs carried by the other person. Is such an arrangement permissible?
A.No. As the player intends to add from such clubs during the round, the eight clubs count towards his total. The player is, therefore, in breach of Rule 4-4a for starting the stipulated round with more than 14 clubs. In addition, the other person is acting as a second caddie in breach of Rule 6-4.
As different acts have resulted in two Rules being breached, multiple penalties would apply (see Principle 5 of Decision 1-4/12).


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 27, 2014)

Well this got a little out of hand yesterday didn't it and frankly I find the persecution of Hovis a little disappointing. Hovis has in the past broken a rule, that much is clear. He thought, having been told by someone who he trusted, that what he was doing was within the rules, he now knows better.

What has followed from this, suggesting he goes to the competition secretary and admits his mistakes is just a little daft, not because it isn't the right thing to do, but because it is absolutely impossible for Hovis to know when in the last however long he has been doing this that he has broken this rule. He has stated that he "often" does this, not "always" and he has also stated that he doesn't go to the range before qualifiers so probably hasn't done this in a comp. In order to own up to his mistake, he has to be certain when he made the mistake and when the mistake occurred and I doubt he can be.

Going to the competition secretary and saying "at some point in the last 5 years I may have been carrying more than 14 clubs. I did tell my FCs before the start of play and I thought this was OK but I can't say for certain which competitions I did this in" will probably be met with the response "thanks for telling us, but as you can't be sure, just make sure you don't do it again". End of.

For bounce games, I'm sure if Hovis went to his PPs\group and said "guys, you know I sometimes tell you on the first tee that I have too many clubs but don't intend to use 2 of them? Well, I have just found out that is against the rules and I may have won some money from you guys over the last 5 years but I don't know for sure when it was and how much I won". I'm pretty sure this would be met with the response "don't worry about it, good of you to fess up but you know now.", at least that would be my response.

Yes we should follow the rules, and Hovis thought he was, but suggesting he retrospectively hands back all his winnings\prizes just doesn't make any sense.


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## Liqdaddymac (Feb 27, 2014)

backwoodsman said:



			Joking, surely? 

If not, you need to have a better read of 4-4 I fear
		
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I was about that, don't need to, I really get round it by having double headed clubs....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2014)

Liqdaddymac said:



			I get around this by letting my mate who only uses 12 clubs carry my driver for me and I just "borrow" it when required - means I can carry an extra wedge.
		
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Allowed under rule 4-4b - interesting one that - never thought of making use of it when playing a 'pairs' comp


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## bladeplayer (Feb 27, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Well this got a little out of hand yesterday didn't it and frankly I find the persecution of Hovis a little disappointing. Hovis has in the past broken a rule, that much is clear. He thought, having been told by someone who he trusted, that what he was doing was within the rules, he now knows better.

What has followed from this, suggesting he goes to the competition secretary and admits his mistakes is just a little daft, not because it isn't the right thing to do, but because it is absolutely impossible for Hovis to know when in the last however long he has been doing this that he has broken this rule. He has stated that he "often" does this, not "always" and he has also stated that he doesn't go to the range before qualifiers so probably hasn't done this in a comp. In order to own up to his mistake, he has to be certain when he made the mistake and when the mistake occurred and I doubt he can be.

Going to the competition secretary and saying "at some point in the last 5 years I may have been carrying more than 14 clubs. I did tell my FCs before the start of play and I thought this was OK but I can't say for certain which competitions I did this in" will probably be met with the response "thanks for telling us, but as you can't be sure, just make sure you don't do it again". End of.



Yes we should follow the rules, and Hovis thought he was, but suggesting he retrospectively hands back all his winnings\prizes just doesn't make any sense.
		
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Mike your fast becoming the rock of sense on here , 

the fact as highlighted above that he has told FC & they didnt know either so it seems loadsa people didnt/dont know ... 

P.s the sooner all the forum gets back to being helpful and its supportive instead of being ready to jump on someone who admitted they made a mistake the better ,
 if i was new on here or just a lurker id be afraid to ask a question on what id just done in case i got torn apart .. 
I dont know all the rules dont think i ever will but ive learned here from help and understanding of other forumers in a polite & nice way .. lets keep it that way , yeah ?


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## chrisd (Feb 27, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Surely as a referee you would know all about the rules.....
		
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I wouldn't bother, Id just post on here for you to tell me!


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## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 27, 2014)

Someone else asked the question earlier but I haven't seen a reply from Hovis so I will ask again, why would you be using 2 old clubs on the range that you would never use on the course? There may be a valid reason but I cannot think of one.


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## hovis (Feb 27, 2014)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			Someone else asked the question earlier but I haven't seen a reply from Hovis so I will ask again, why would you be using 2 old clubs on the range that you would never use on the course? There may be a valid reason but I cannot think of one.
		
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See post 158


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## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 27, 2014)

Ok. Thanks for that.


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## rosecott (Feb 27, 2014)

Liqdaddymac said:



			I get around this by letting my mate who only uses 12 clubs carry my driver for me and I just "borrow" it when required - means I can carry an extra wedge.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Allowed under rule 4-4b - interesting one that - never thought of making use of it when playing a 'pairs' comp
		
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I did not read L's post as his mate being a partner rather than a fellow competitor - and if he was a partner, they had 13 clubs too many!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2014)

rosecott said:



			I did not read L's post as his mate being a partner rather than a fellow competitor - and if he was a partner, they had 13 clubs too many!
		
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The rule 4-4b says in a pairing you can share clubs so long as any partner using the other's club does not personally exceed 14 clubs (he won;t be able to temporarily 'give away' a club if he was carrying 14 to start with).  Of course this implies that as one of my 14 clubs I could carry a left handed 7i (say) for my use and if my playing partner only carries 13 he can use my LH club if he needs to.

That seems allowable but I've never considered doing it and it seems a bit 'dodgy-though-legal'


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The rule 4-4b says in a pairing you can share clubs so long as any partner using the other's club does not personally exceed 14 clubs (he won;t be able to temporarily 'give away' a club if he was carrying 14 to start with).  Of course this implies that as one of my 14 clubs I could carry a left handed 7i (say) for my use and if my playing partner only carries 13 he can use my LH club if he needs to.

That seems allowable but I've never considered doing it and it seems a bit 'dodgy-though-legal'
		
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You've missed the (subtle?) bit of the Rule! And of Rosecott's reply.

If you share, total clubs of both Partners cannot exceed 14.

So if he (only) carries 13 and you wish to share, you are only allowed 1!


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## delc (Feb 27, 2014)

Oh dear!!! I managed to turn up at the 1st tee with 15 clubs in my bag myself yesterday.  I did realize this before I teed off, as I had been trying out a couple of different wedges from my collection of the things and forget to take one out. However there was a queue of players waiting to tee off behind us, so my playing partners said carry on, rather than running back to the clubhouse to leave the excess one in a locker.  It was only a friendly round, not a comp btw.

P.S. Unlike Ian Woosnam, I was not prepared to throw an expensive club into the bushes!


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## DAVEYBOY (Feb 27, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Well this got a little out of hand yesterday didn't it and frankly I find the persecution of Hovis a little disappointing. Hovis has in the past broken a rule, that much is clear. He thought, having been told by someone who he trusted, that what he was doing was within the rules, he now knows better.

What has followed from this, suggesting he goes to the competition secretary and admits his mistakes is just a little daft, not because it isn't the right thing to do, but because it is absolutely impossible for Hovis to know when in the last however long he has been doing this that he has broken this rule. He has stated that he "often" does this, not "always" and he has also stated that he doesn't go to the range before qualifiers so probably hasn't done this in a comp. In order to own up to his mistake, he has to be certain when he made the mistake and when the mistake occurred and I doubt he can be.

Going to the competition secretary and saying "at some point in the last 5 years I may have been carrying more than 14 clubs. I did tell my FCs before the start of play and I thought this was OK but I can't say for certain which competitions I did this in" will probably be met with the response "thanks for telling us, but as you can't be sure, just make sure you don't do it again". End of.

For bounce games, I'm sure if Hovis went to his PPs\group and said "guys, you know I sometimes tell you on the first tee that I have too many clubs but don't intend to use 2 of them? Well, I have just found out that is against the rules and I may have won some money from you guys over the last 5 years but I don't know for sure when it was and how much I won". I'm pretty sure this would be met with the response "don't worry about it, good of you to fess up but you know now.", at least that would be my response.

Yes we should follow the rules, and Hovis thought he was, but suggesting he retrospectively hands back all his winnings\prizes just doesn't make any sense.
		
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Post of the week :thup:


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## C&R (Feb 27, 2014)

EarCat said:



			Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.
		
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Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You've missed the (subtle?) bit of the Rule! And of Rosecott's reply.

If you share, total clubs of both Partners cannot exceed 14.

So if he (only) carries 13 and you wish to share, you are only allowed 1!
		
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Ooops - just read the rule carefully (there's a problem for us for a start - not reading the rules carefully) - it sounded all wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

C&R said:



			Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long
		
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YOu get into hot water with getting into such as 'sporting' and 'spirit of the game' subjective assessments of rule use and breaking.  There have been many such discussions on this forum over the short time I have lived here.  For instance some time ago I raised how we could be clever - for some read 'not in spirit of game' - in our use of the Stroke and Distance rule.

Just play to the rules as the are written, and let's not try and be too smart about trying to circumvent them.  With the rules we are all in the same boat.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 28, 2014)

EarCat said:
			
		


			Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.
Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long
		
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C&R said:



			Have too agree 100%. I would play golf with you all day long
		
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Ignoring rules, for whatever reason, is a dangerous thing. Firstly, it means that not everyone is playing to the same ones, and secondly, over time, it leads people to believe they can pick and choose the rules they adhere to.

The rules are there for a reason, they don't allow for compassion or our own beliefs and it isn't for us to try to interpret them in a different way to suit us or to ignore certain one's that we don't agree with.

If everyone plays to the rules then there isn't a problem.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2014)

EarCat said:





londonlewis said:



			If I was playing against you I would have done the same thing. 
It is a gentleman's game and it would be very unfair of being accused of not being a gentleman because you invoked the correct use of the rules.
		
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Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that it is unsporting to enforce this rule in this scenario. I feel that a bit of compassion is required here, imagine you were in the boy with 15 clubs in his bags boots, how bad you would feel if your mistake cost your team the win. After all, this isn't life or death here, it is a game of golf we are talking about.
		
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In a bounce game, where Rules of Golf rarely fully apply, I'd certainly say 'Don't worry about it, just don't use them'.

But in a match, I'd say '(Sorry but) thems the rules!'. To do otherwise would be waiving a Rule, the penalty for that being both DQ-ed! And in a comp, I'd definitely simply state the penalty - because I'm acting for the entire field. In neither case would that mean I didn't feel compassion for the 'offender'.

As for 'Gentleman's game', or 'unsporting', well those are very subjective terms and Golf's (self policing) adherence to the Rules, both in Amateur and Professional ranks, is what I believe makes it so. Cricket, though rather changed in recent Professional times, still has some 'gentlemanly' rules and conventions that I applaud. Was it 'unsporting' to penalise Elis Christie for 'not finishing' one of her races? Or DQ-ing relay teams for changing the baton out of zone, or a sprinter for stepping into a vacant lane? All unfortunate, but all simply applying Rules. 

That doesn't mean that there's no room for 'sporting' behaviour in Golf - Nicklaus's concession to Jacklin being the perfect example.

Your gesture of deliberately forfeiting the next 2 holes is also something I wouldn't do. To use your example, would you do the same if you realised that by doing so you would cost your team the win? 



mcbroon said:



			I'd feel like an idiot.  I wouldn't feel hard done by - I'd understand that I broke the rules and that I incurred a penalty under those rules.  There is no wriggle room, it's not a matter of compassion.

Everybody knows the 14 club limit and everyone knows there's a penalty if you breach it.  Nobody should feel aggrieved about being penalised if they do breach it.
		
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That's a much more succint way of putting it!


Airlie_Andy said:



			As it was Matchplay I would say don't worry about it and continue the game, although I'm now not sure if this would see us both DQ?
		
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As you are agreeing to waive a rule, then yes it does mean both DQ-ed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Ignoring rules, for whatever reason, is a dangerous thing. Firstly, it means that not everyone is playing to the same ones, and secondly, over time, it leads people to believe they can pick and choose the rules they adhere to.

The rules are there for a reason, they don't allow for compassion or our own beliefs and it isn't for us to try to interpret them in a different way to suit us or to ignore certain one's that we don't agree with.

If everyone plays to the rules then there isn't a problem.
		
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...and if a group start to 'waive' or 'reinterpret'  certain rules to and for their own purposes - these interpretations start to evolve from casual 'local' agreements - to the norm.  New players to the group do not realise the origins of the 'interpretation' and so take it as the rule.  And so they when playing with others who do know know - spread the interpretation.  And so we find ourselves getting into the sort of messes we find ourselves in today where complete misunderstanding and incorrect interpretations of rules abound.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 28, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if a group start to 'waive' or 'reinterpret'  certain rules to and for their own purposes - these interpretations start to evolve from casual 'local' agreements - to the norm.  New players to the group do not realise the origins of the 'interpretation' and so take it as the rule.  And so they when playing with others who do know know - spread the interpretation.  And so we find ourselves getting into the sort of messes we find ourselves in today where complete misunderstanding and incorrect interpretations of rules abound.
		
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Indeed :thup:


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