# Can lessons be a waste of time?



## Tommygun16 (Sep 17, 2022)

My theory is this: I'm so inconsistent that the pro will see a different swing every time I see them and try and fix that thing, which isn't reflective of how I normally play anyway.

Example - saw the pro yesterday and all I was doing was shanking my irons.  Never shank it normally, never been a problem, but when being watched that's all I was doing.  So he introduces 'swing changes' to make me fix it. Ok.  But next time I'm at the range or playing, I go back to not shanking it again.  So what's the point in the lesson/swing changes?

Prediction: next time I see him, I'll be slicing it (that day).  So he'll introduce something to 'fix the slice', but that's not generally my problem.

Complete waste of time.  I think you have to figure it out yourself. Thoughts?

Edit:
I think the issue is this: I have seen 3x pros over the years. Their method is always the same - let me watch you swing a few times then I can tell you what you're doing wrong (in essence).

The problem is no one tells you anymore how to swing. I get that 'everyone has their own unique swing' which seems to be the current thing in fashion. But you want to watch my swing? Which one? I have 20+. The one where I release my wrists, or the one where I don't. The one where I keep my weight back on my heels to stop me tipping over? The one where I have to take it back on the inside to stop coming over the top?

But despite asking no one can tell me how to swing. No one knows what you're feeling. They just see a flaw (the flaw on the day) and try and fix it (which over time will almost certainly contradict a correction given to you on another day).

Maybe you've got it or you don't. I'm coming more around to that kind of thinking.


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## chrisd (Sep 17, 2022)

I agree, there are certainly times when you do things that are different than the norm, on Thursday my first tee shot was a shank  - something I hardly ever do and didn't do again! However, I think a good teaching pro will see stuff over a lesson that will show him your tendencies, and be able to see past a few shanks or hooks etc and be able to change, for example, poor grip, bad posture etc etc and start to give you the basics to a better alround swing.


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## bobmac (Sep 17, 2022)

At the start of the lesson, the pro should ask ''how can I help''?


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## Neilds (Sep 17, 2022)

Lessons are a waste of time - unless you put the effort in to practice between the lessons


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## HPIMG (Sep 17, 2022)

I have a mixed opinion on lessons. I think they can be great if you have a bad fault that you are not aware of, pro should easily see and point this out and give you a fix but on the other hand I was playing the best golf I have played recently, everything seemed to be working pretty dam good and my pro started to tweak stuff I didn’t think needed tweaking. I have went from threatening to shoot level par constantly to shooting around +15 constantly over the past week.
So I would say if you are really not happy with your game, go see a pro. If you are happy with your game, just leave it alone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Yes lessons can be a waste of time - depends on lots of factors , who the pro is , what level you are at , have you reached your peak , how much work you put in after


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 17, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Lessons are a waste of time - unless you put the effort in to practice between the lessons
		
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I'm not saying pros can't give good advice.  But the point for me is I'm so inconsistent they just try and fix what they see in front of them.  I was shanking it yesterday (out of the blue) and so that was what he was trying to fix (which makes sense as he can't help me if I'm shanking it).  But I'm just back from the range and was flushing it, no shanks.  So back to my 'old' swing.  What was the point of yesterdays lesson?


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## Crow (Sep 17, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			I'm not saying pros can't give good advice.  But the point for me is I'm so inconsistent they just try and fix what they see in front of them.  I was shanking it yesterday (out of the blue) and so that was what he was trying to fix (which makes sense as he can't help me if I'm shanking it).  But I'm just back from the range and was flushing it, no shanks.  So back to my 'old' swing.  What was the point of yesterdays lesson?
		
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It plainly worked, the Pro has fixed your shanks!
Otherwise, as Bob said, you need to tell the Pro what you want to achieve from the lesson.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 17, 2022)

Crow said:



			It plainly worked, the Pro has fixed your shanks!
Otherwise, as Bob said, you need to tell the Pro what you want to achieve from the lesson.
		
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Ha, unfortunately he didn't, I wasn't doing what he said, I was focussing on what I have done in the past (which he said was wrong).  Back to flushing it.  Bizarre.


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## srixon 1 (Sep 17, 2022)

Sounds daft, but I found over the years that for me the best time to have a lesson was when I was actually playing well and had loads of confidence.


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## evemccc (Sep 17, 2022)

In my experience I have found that sometimes things will become apparent ages afterwards

If something is wrong, it is unlikely to be rectified within a day or week of practising what is ‘right’ - it has taken me a while to implement some swing changes and I still don’t consistently achieve my desired results but I do feel / know I’m on the right track.
Also, how do you know you are correctly implementing what the pro wants — do you use a tripod to record yourself?


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 17, 2022)

I think the issue is this: I have seen 3x pros over the years.  Their method is always the same - let me watch you swing a few times then I can tell you what you're doing wrong (in essence).

The problem is no one tells you anymore how to swing.  I get that 'everyone has their own unique swing' which seems to be the current thing in fashion.  But you want to watch my swing?  Which one?  I have 20+.  The one where I release my wrists, or the one where I don't.  The one where I keep my weight back on my heels to stop me tipping over?  The one where I have to take it back on the inside to stop coming over the top?

But despite asking no one can tell me how to swing.  No one knows what you're feeling.  They just see a flaw (the flaw on the day) and try and fix it (which over time will almost certainly contradict a correction given to you on another day).

Maybe you've got it or you don't.  I'm coming more around to that kind of thinking.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2022)

Sound like you need advice on why you are so inconsistent.  You may be swaying, overusing your wrists etc.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2022)

I had countless lessons when I started playing golf but not one of them explained how the club needs to make proper contact with the ball. It was all about going through various check points in the swing.

I now believe if you can show clearly what proper impact is the rest of the swing will take care of it's self.


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## HPIMG (Sep 17, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			The one where I have to take it back on the inside to stop coming over the top?

.
		
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I was always told taking the club back too much on the inside causes you to come over the top. Maybe some others can give input but I believe if a pro is telling you that he’s wrong.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Sound like you need advice on why you are so inconsistent.  You may be swaying, overusing your wrists etc.
		
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Hallelujah.

But that's my point, they can't give me that as it's different every time and don't actually tell you how to swing.


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## evemccc (Sep 17, 2022)

Another idea is to choose one pro and get an afternoon with her/him - or a block of a few lessons relatively quickly? 
Explaining what your issues are and showing him/her your 20swings and letting them give you a fix, can’t really be done in a single lesson I think - but a concentrated block may help?


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## jim8flog (Sep 17, 2022)

Once you have a good teacher (or 2) I would say definitely not and it also comes down to whether or not you do what they say and not what you think you should do.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 17, 2022)

I think most people get told to go see their pro for a lesson if they aren’t very good or are struggling expecting the pro to tweak something and all will be fixed.

There are many pros out there happy to take your money to tell you to strengthen your grip to fix a slice.

Many people don’t really want to put the effort in to get better, for these people lessons are a waste of time and money. As is going to the wrong pro.

A good pro will ask you what you want or expect from a lesson and how much effort/commitment you are prepared to give. Then be honest about what they see and what you need to do to improve.


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## Lee762 (Sep 18, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			I think the issue is this: I have seen 3x pros over the years.  Their method is always the same - let me watch you swing a few times then I can tell you what you're doing wrong (in essence).

The problem is no one tells you anymore how to swing.  I get that 'everyone has their own unique swing' which seems to be the current thing in fashion.  But you want to watch my swing?  Which one?  I have 20+.  The one where I release my wrists, or the one where I don't.  The one where I keep my weight back on my heels to stop me tipping over?  The one where I have to take it back on the inside to stop coming over the top?

But despite asking no one can tell me how to swing.  No one knows what you're feeling.  They just see a flaw (the flaw on the day) and try and fix it (which over time will almost certainly contradict a correction given to you on another day).

Maybe you've got it or you don't.  I'm coming more around to that kind of thinking.
		
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I had lessons when I first started but after 6 lessons I stopped. I didn't really receive any advice as to how to build a repeatable swing. So I pretty much just started watching Tour pros and tried to copy them (no it didn't make me a tour player). Eventually, I bought "A swing for Life" by Nick Faldo, that book alone got me down to a 9 handicap (albeit a short hitter), with my best round being 3 over. 

Since then I have looked at other Tour Players books, aswell as Butch Harmon and now Ben Hogan, but I think I will go back to Nick Faldo as that works best.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 18, 2022)

Lee762 said:



			I had lessons when I first started but after 6 lessons I stopped. I didn't really receive any advice as to how to build a repeatable swing. So I pretty much just started watching Tour pros and tried to copy them (no it didn't make me a tour player). Eventually, I bought "A swing for Life" by Nick Faldo, that book alone got me down to a 9 handicap (albeit a short hitter), with my best round being 3 over.

Since then I have looked at other Tour Players books, aswell as Butch Harmon and now Ben Hogan, but I think I will go back to Nick Faldo as that works best.
		
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Quite. There seems to be a massive flaw with the pro approach. Honestly never met anyone who was better after lessons, the best players I know played since they were young and had it all worked out then.

How long did it take you to get to a point where you could hit the ball consistently? And would you still recommend the Faldo book?


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## Lee762 (Sep 18, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Quite. There seems to be a massive flaw with the pro approach. Honestly never met anyone who was better after lessons, the best players I know played since they were young and had it all worked out then.

How long did it take you to get to a point where you could hit the ball consistently? And would you still recommend the Faldo book?
		
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Once I started focusing on the basics of the swing etc it came pretty quick. Don't get me wrong I am not stripping it out of the middle every time but my dispersion is pretty good with my irons both front to back and left to right.

I would 100% recommend Nick Faldos book, although it does not fit in with todays method, for example hooding the face on the takeaway, Faldo is more rotating the club. I find this works well for me and I have better control of the ball and flight.

Faldo breaks down the swing into sections and he states that he believes that anyone that can replicate these positions are capable of becoming a single figure golfer. I am to a degree proof of that.

I find that with todays method you put a lot of strain on your lower back.


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## bobmac (Sep 19, 2022)

What would you say is ''todays method''?


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## DaveR (Sep 19, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Quite. There seems to be a massive flaw with the pro approach. *Honestly never met anyone who was better after lessons, the best players I know played since they were young and had it all worked out then.*

How long did it take you to get to a point where you could hit the ball consistently? And would you still recommend the Faldo book?
		
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Do you not think they had lessons when they were younger?


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 19, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Do you not think they had lessons when they were younger?
		
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I'm sure some might, but the friends of mine who played when they were younger didn't, they just figured it out at the time by going to the range and messing around.  I'm taking my child to golf lessons, but it's different at a very young age as it's not really a 'lesson'; the primary purpose is fun.  At that age (5-9) I think you're going to naturally pick up the mechanics of how to swing the club.  At 30+ I reckon trying to teach that to an adult gets much harder.  As I say, my experience has been poor so far.


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## DaveR (Sep 19, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			I'm sure some might, but the friends of mine who played when they were younger didn't, they just figured it out at the time by going to the range and messing around.  I'm taking my child to golf lessons, but it's different at a very young age as it's not really a 'lesson'; the primary purpose is fun.  At that age (5-9) I think you're going to naturally pick up the mechanics of how to swing the club.  At 30+ I reckon trying to teach that to an adult gets much harder.  As I say, my experience has been poor so far.
		
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OK. I'm pretty sure that you will find that 99% of tour players and top amateurs take or have taken lessons in order to get where they are. Maybe you have just found poor teaching pros.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 19, 2022)

DaveR said:



			OK. I'm pretty sure that you will find that 99% of tour players and top amateurs take or have taken lessons in order to get where they are. Maybe you have just found poor teaching pros.
		
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Oh yes, of that I have no doubt.  But the experience I described above ('let me watch your swing and offer advice') works perfectly for them as they have a swing, so they can make tweaks and adjustments here and there.  I'm starting from nothing and being told what a swing should feel and look like is like getting blood from a stone.


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## Lee762 (Sep 19, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What would you say is ''todays method''?
		
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From what I have heard PGA pros teaching at the ranges, it is very much hood the club face going back and then on the down swing turn hard left, which is the only way you can square the club face.

Whilst this seems logical, the amount of players I have seen that have had pretty consistent swings all of a sudden cannot keep the ball in play is shocking. I watch a player over a period of 3-4 months go from a steady 3 handicap player to someone who is struggling to break 90, due to the massive hooks and pulls. Granted when he is on song he is a good club longer and he may well groove the swing but until then he does not know where or when his miss will be.

Today all seems to be about power and don't worry too much about accuracy. Which to some degree I agree with this, however, if you are missing the fairways and green by large amounts then all the power in the world won't help. 

I am definitely in the camp of needing and wanting more power and distance and I am willing to lose some accuracy but not to the point where Im missing fairways and greens by massive margins.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2022)

I haven‘t a clue about almost everything on the golf swing that is posted and discussed on these boards.  It’s double Dutch to me.

My pro has me taking a task-oriented approach, and he aims to create a learning environment for those he works with so that we can understand the task he sets us and why.  He does not focus on swing instruction or ‘fixing’.

My current task. I must deliver the club head square to the ball (back to as it started at address) on a path that makes the ball spin in a way that causes it to fly a fade trajectory.  And that’s it.  I am not that bothered about how I do that; how great the shot is, or how far I hit it.  No confusing swing thoughts whatsoever.  I know my current task.

Once I can do that consistently and reasonably well he will task me to hit it straight; and only once I can do that fairly consistently and able to switch between fade and straight will we look at making the ball spin to create a draw trajectory.

Then, if I want, we may look at hitting it further…though I suspect I might not bother with that.  My objective is simply to be a half decent single figure handicap golfer.  I don’t need to hit the ball far to be that, I just need to be able to exert some control over it.


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## Lee762 (Sep 19, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Oh yes, of that I have no doubt.  But the experience I described above ('let me watch your swing and offer advice') works perfectly for them as they have a swing, so they can make tweaks and adjustments here and there.  I'm starting from nothing and being told what a swing should feel and look like is like getting blood from a stone.
		
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Tommy, what you have come across is, unfortunately, normal today. It is not about teaching the player how to swing but rather teaching the swing to the player. Yes there are some basics that have stood the test of time but as all great coaches say with these there is always room for adaptation they are not cast in stone.

I for example follow Nick Faldo's swing for life but have a very flat swing, it works for me and I'm relatively consistent (or was when I was following it) because of my swing I have also looked at Ben Hogan and Steve Johnson on YT.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 19, 2022)

Rarely post these days but felt I needed to offer a contrary point of view. Many on here know I am a firm advocate of lessons. I even went through a winter of a complete change a decade or so ago and spent six months in the golfing doldrums as the changes took place. That was born out of a necessity from a health and body performance perspective. I still have lessons on a regular basis (every 2-3 months) and I buy a block of lessons (well get them as a Christmas present) and every January I sit down with the professional I use and we review my performance the year before, discuss what I did well, badly, how my handicap moved and why and generally look at what we did and what needs work on and come up with a plan. 

We usually have a swing MOT in January/February to see where the swing is and put in place some changes, usually relating to set up and the basics. Spring is a one hour short game refresher and from there we tweak as the season goes on depending on what isn't working at the time

The whole point is I have someone that understands my swing, which isn't textbook and never will be, but works within my physical limitations and doesn't seek to reinvent the wheel each time. It has taken time to find someone I trust totally and who has bought into my own ambitions. He knows though that if he gives me a drill to make a change, that I'll go away and work on it and won't flit back to the old ways even when it isn't working. That is fundamental. 

Too many people go to a pro wanting change but only go for one lesson and expect a pro to be able to change everything in one hit. It can't be done and at best will be a band aid fix. To really make changes it takes time and a two way commitment. I don't use one of my club pros but I see club members coming for a one off lesson, never going back to the practice ground to work on it and then wonder why it isn't getting better. It takes time and patience and a realisation that you need to take steps backwards to make progress

My advice would be to find a pro with a good reputation and word of mouth is usually a strong source of recommendation. Have a frank discussion about your ability, your physical needs and what you want to achieve. A good pro will be able to work with you on these. It is always a two way street. To simply have a lesson and say they are a waste of time is inaccurate, perhaps even flippant and an indication of someone wanting a quick fix to a problem and golf simply isn't like that


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## bobmac (Sep 19, 2022)

Lee762 said:



			Tommy, what you have come across is, unfortunately, normal today. It is not about teaching the player how to swing but rather *teaching the swing to the player.*

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What swing is this?


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## Lee762 (Sep 19, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What swing is this?
		
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As I stated above. From what I have seen most PGA pros are trying to teach one-set swing and this does not work. Far from it, it can hinder a golfer.

You would'nt teach Furyk swing and Jon Rham's coach was sensible enough not to try and change certain aspects of his swing. My belief is that coaching should be based on the player and not the method.

Providing the player returns the club to the ball correctly nothing else really matters. We are not all going to swing like Ernie or Adam Scott.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 19, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Rarely post these days but felt I needed to offer a contrary point of view. Many on here know I am a firm advocate of lessons. I even went through a winter of a complete change a decade or so ago and spent six months in the golfing doldrums as the changes took place. That was born out of a necessity from a health and body performance perspective. I still have lessons on a regular basis (every 2-3 months) and I buy a block of lessons (well get them as a Christmas present) and every January I sit down with the professional I use and we review my performance the year before, discuss what I did well, badly, how my handicap moved and why and generally look at what we did and what needs work on and come up with a plan.

We usually have a swing MOT in January/February to see where the swing is and put in place some changes, usually relating to set up and the basics. Spring is a one hour short game refresher and from there we tweak as the season goes on depending on what isn't working at the time

The whole point is I have someone that understands my swing, which isn't textbook and never will be, but works within my physical limitations and doesn't seek to reinvent the wheel each time. It has taken time to find someone I trust totally and who has bought into my own ambitions. He knows though that if he gives me a drill to make a change, that I'll go away and work on it and won't flit back to the old ways even when it isn't working. That is fundamental.

Too many people go to a pro wanting change but only go for one lesson and expect a pro to be able to change everything in one hit. It can't be done and at best will be a band aid fix. To really make changes it takes time and a two way commitment. I don't use one of my club pros but I see club members coming for a one off lesson, never going back to the practice ground to work on it and then wonder why it isn't getting better. It takes time and patience and a realisation that you need to take steps backwards to make progress

My advice would be to find a pro with a good reputation and word of mouth is usually a strong source of recommendation. Have a frank discussion about your ability, your physical needs and what you want to achieve. A good pro will be able to work with you on these. It is always a two way street. To simply have a lesson and say they are a waste of time is inaccurate, perhaps even flippant and an indication of someone wanting a quick fix to a problem and golf simply isn't like that
		
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Nowhere have I said I've had 'a' lesson and they're a waste of time. You've made that bit up. On the contrary, I said I've seen 3x coaches over the years and I'm questioning the method *they* employ - which is to tweak the swing they observe, not teach how to swing.


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## bobmac (Sep 19, 2022)

Lee762 said:



			As I stated above. From what I have seen *most PGA pros are trying to teach one-set swing* and this does not work. Far from it, it can hinder a golfer.
		
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Not true.
PGA teaching is based on the 5 golf laws at impact.
And they are taught to vary their teaching methods to suit the golfer.
Just out of interest, how many of the 7,500 PGA pros have you seen or spoken to?



Lee762 said:



			From what I have heard PGA pros teaching at the ranges, it is very much* hood the club face going back and then on the down swing turn hard left*, which is the only way you can square the club face.
		
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I've never heard that before.
In the picture below, how would you describe the clubface?


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 19, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I haven‘t a clue about almost everything on the golf swing that is posted and discussed on these boards.  It’s double Dutch to me.

My pro has me taking a task-oriented approach, and he aims to create a learning environment for those he works with so that we can understand the task he sets us and why.  He does not focus on swing instruction or ‘fixing’.

My current task. I must deliver the club head square to the ball (back to as it started at address) on a path that makes the ball spin in a way that causes it to fly a fade trajectory.  And that’s it.  I am not that bothered about how I do that; how great the shot is, or how far I hit it.  No confusing swing thoughts whatsoever.  I know my current task.

Once I can do that consistently and reasonably well he will task me to hit it straight; and only once I can do that fairly consistently and able to switch between fade and straight will we look at making the ball spin to create a draw trajectory.

Then, if I want, we may look at hitting it further…though I suspect I might not bother with that.  My objective is simply to be a half decent single figure handicap golfer.  I don’t need to hit the ball far to be that, I just need to be able to exert some control over it.
		
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That's a really interesting approach. The key part is "when I've managed to do [part one] consistently"!! I hope it works for you. I've been stuck on part one for years


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## Lee762 (Sep 19, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Not true.
PGA teaching is based on the 5 golf laws at impact.
And they are taught to vary their teaching methods to suit the golfer.
Just out of interest, how many of the 7,500 PGA pros have you seen or spoken to? 

*Good question. I obviously have not seen all 7500 PGA Pro's so the same question could be asked of you.*

*Regarding the 5 Golf Laws, of all of the 7500 PGA pros actually teach this.*

*Regarding adapting their teaching I would disagree. I have been around enough PGA Pros and not all of them teach the pupil.*



I've never heard that before.
In the picture below, how would you describe the clubface?

*I started playing in the 80s-90s. If you take the club (and without manipulating the hands) and bring the club in front of Luke the clubface will be closed.
I know that todays teaching recommends that the clubface mirror the spine angle. but as stated above unless you clear hard and to the left you will pull or hook the ball.*

*The idea of this forum is to discuss and share ideas. What works for me might not work for you but that does not make me wrong or you wrong.*

View attachment 44391

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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Do you not think they had lessons when they were younger?
		
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In my observation, probably not. Or at least, no more nor less than anyone else. For the best 1%, lessons may have an influence on where an individual ends up within that 1%.
But for the other 99% I would guess no correlation between lessons and golf level.
And none at all between lessons had by the 99% and the 1%.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 19, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Nowhere have I said I've had 'a' lesson and they're a waste of time. You've made that bit up. On the contrary, I said I've seen 3x coaches over the years and I'm questioning the method *they* employ - which is to tweak the swing they observe, not teach how to swing.
		
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Taken from your first post

Complete waste of time. I think you have to figure it out yourself. Thoughts? Your implication, including the title implies your thoughts that they are a waste of time.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 19, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Taken from your first post

Complete waste of time. I think you have to figure it out yourself. Thoughts? Your implication, including the title implies your thoughts that they are a waste of time.
		
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Well, if you read the whole scenario you would see that was one specific example where the pro recommended swing changes to fix something I never do (shank). So yes that one did feel like a waste of time. But I did not have one lesson and deem all lessons a waste of time. Given my experiences over a few years, and apparently others on here as well, I think it's a legitimate question. Clearly you think they're useful and that's fine.


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## DaveR (Sep 19, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			In my observation, probably not. Or at least, no more nor less than anyone else. For the best 1%, lessons may have an influence on where an individual ends up within that 1%.
But for the other 99% I would guess no correlation between lessons and golf level.
And none at all between lessons had by the 99% and the 1%.
		
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OK if you say so 👍


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## bobmac (Sep 19, 2022)

Lee762 said:



*Good question. I obviously have not seen all 7500 PGA Pro's so the same question could be asked of you.*

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I didn't say I did, you did...   *



			most PGA pros are trying to teach one-set swing
		
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*
*



			Regarding the 5 Golf Laws, of all of the 7500 PGA pros actually teach this.
		
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*I have no idea. I just said they are taught to teach the 5 golf laws, not one set swing.

*



			Regarding adapting their teaching I would disagree. I have been around enough PGA Pros and not all of them teach the pupil.
		
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*Again, I wouldn't know, but that is how they are taught to teach. A PGA pro would not teach the same swing to a 12 year old as he/she would teach a 70 year old

*



			I started playing in the 80s-90s. If you take the club (and without manipulating the hands) and bring the club in front of Luke the clubface will be closed.
		
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*If the clubface is parallel with the spine angle, it is square.

*



			I know that todays teaching recommends that the clubface mirror the spine angle. but as stated above unless you clear hard and to the left you will pull or hook the ball.
		
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*I disagree. If you pull hard and left with a square face, you will hit a pull.

*



			The idea of this forum is to discuss and share ideas. What works for me might not work for you but that does not make me wrong or you wrong.
		
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*True, but as I have done the PGA course, I would suggest I know more about what is and what isn't taught than most.
And I certainly don't agree with Tommyguns earlier comment.



Tommygun16 said:



			There seems to be a massive flaw with the pro approach.
		
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But as they say....everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 19, 2022)

It's interesting isn't it. It would be good to be able to test how much lessons do or don't improve someone, but it would be almost impossible to do (i.e. would they have improved anyway). 
However, given my particular issue as explained in the first post, if I do go to see a new pro and his approach is the same as the others, then surely that's telling that there's an issue. I'll report back.


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## Jason.H (Sep 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Not true.
PGA teaching is based on the 5 golf laws at impact.
And they are taught to vary their teaching methods to suit the golfer.
Just out of interest, how many of the 7,500 PGA pros have you seen or spoken to?



I've never heard that before.
In the picture below, how would you describe the clubface?

View attachment 44391

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At that point the club face should be the same angle as the spine as it is in the photo. As a starting point a neutral grip and good ball position are key. I played golf with someone who had a really strong grip and was hooking balls out of bounds and he said his coach was really good yet can’t get the grip right.


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			At that point the club face should be the same angle as the spine as it is in the photo.
		
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Yes, I know...




			If the clubface is parallel with the spine angle, it is square.
		
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			As a starting point a neutral grip and good ball position are key.
		
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But not essential


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## Jason.H (Sep 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Yes, I know...





But not essential
		
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I’ve become a very consistent ball striker and really pay attention to alignment an ball position.


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			I’ve become a very consistent ball striker and really pay attention to alignment an ball position.
		
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I don't doubt that and I'm pleased it helps you but the ball doesn't care where your feet are or where you are aiming.
If I am hitting driver, the ball is opposite my big toe. If I want to hit it lower, I'll move it back a few inches. If I'm hitting mid irons, the ball would be in the middle, wedges nearer the back foot etc. So the ball position is determined by the shot I'm trying to hit.

And as for the aim.....
If you had a friend who aimed a way right but hit the middle of the fairway every time, would you advise him to change his aim and swing path?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			It's interesting isn't it. It would be good to be able to test how much lessons do or don't improve someone, but it would be almost impossible to do (i.e. would they have improved anyway).
However, given my particular issue as explained in the first post, if I do go to see a new pro and his approach is the same as the others, then surely that's telling that there's an issue. I'll report back.
		
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I have had to have ‘lessons‘ to cure my shanking…as I was unable to identify what I was doing wrong, and indeed what I was doing differently from when I got to 6 handicap and when I didn’t shank it, or at least kept it to the rarity as all golfers will have.

What was identified as the root problem basically had come about as a result of teaching myself, using Hogans book as my Bible - and never having had any lessons.

The solution is a simple one…change my default/standard swing path.  Sounds easy eh?  Well having done it ‘my way’ for 40yrs it’s proving to be far from easy.  I know what I have to do, and oddly in my head (and as my pro tells me) that’s little to do with my ‘swing‘ as such.

Once I have changed my swing path at point of striking the ball I can think ‘what next’…but until then my pro has given me my task, and almost a year since he did I am still working on it.  Change can be difficult, long and sometimes painful.  But the reward of achieving my objective will make it worthwhile.

As I say to Academy members that I take out for a few holes…I can show them how to get the ball round in a decent number of shots but it’s not my place to do anything about their golf swing…I know diddly-squat about that stuff - that’s the job of their teaching pro.

Don‘t see the need for lessons? Bash on and good luck.  But watch out for problems being stored up for the future, because in my experience you might not spot them until they are damned hard to fix - and lessons and a lot of hard work might well be the only way.


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The solution is a simple one…change my default/standard swing path.
		
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One of the hardest things to do.
And as it uses practically all your concentration, if you try and change some thing else, the swing path will revert back to where it was.

Rather than changing the swing path, I'd rather see golfers change the aim and let the swing go where it wants.

eg
If your natural swing path you've used for 40 years is 20yds left of your target, rather than trying to change a 40 year habit, just aim 20 yards right. Now your swing can go where it wants ie straight. You may have to strengthen your grip slightly to ensure the clubface is square with the 'altered' swing path but if the swing path is straight and the club face is square to the path, there's a very good chance of hitting the target.
From personal experience, this works.
In the still below, the lone tree is my target




And the video below shows the result of my 'incorrect' set up


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## Orikoru (Sep 20, 2022)

I don't really have lessons, for a number of reasons. One of them is that my driving range swing is already different to my on-course swing, and I think my "show me your swing" swing would be even worse - a self-conscious mess. But if you are in this scenario, the best thing to do might be to have a playing lesson. I've never done it myself but I suspect that would be of most benefit to me if I did want a lesson. That way I'd be focused on playing golf the way I normally do, and the pro would get a more accurate view of my game. Not the weird self-conscious swing I may do when there is no target and I know someone is watching over my shoulder for mistakes.

I had the same problem doing an iron-fitting last year. It was in an indoor studio so feeling slightly claustrophobic, just hitting at a screen whereas normally my golf routine is target-focused. Ended up shanking half the balls and the fitting was a waste of time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



*One of the hardest things to do.
And as it uses practically all your concentration, if you try and change some thing else, the swing path will revert back to where it was.*

Rather than changing the swing path, I'd rather see golfers change the aim and let the swing go where it wants.

eg
If your natural swing path you've used for 40 years is 20yds left of your target, rather than trying to change a 40 year habit, just aim 20 yards right. Now your swing can go where it wants ie straight. You may have to strengthen your grip slightly to ensure the clubface is square with the 'altered' swing path but if the swing path is straight and the club face is square to the path, there's a very good chance of hitting the target.
From personal experience, this works.
In the still below, the lone tree is my target

View attachment 44412


And the video below shows the result of my 'incorrect' set up







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indeed.  Every shot I hit on the range or on the course I have to really concentrate on what I must do.  Others playing with me will say that I seem a bit obsessed with ‘practicing’ on the golf course; that I should leave practice on the range, and that I should just relax and enjoy my golf.  I do tell them, and as you say, were I to just relax and play a shot there is a very high probability that I will instantly revert to my old path…and shank the ball.  Because that is exactly what happens 🙄


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			indeed.  Every shot I hit on the range or on the course I have to really concentrate on what I must do.  Others playing with me will say that I seem a bit obsessed with ‘practicing’ on the golf course; that I should leave practice on the range, and that I should just relax and enjoy my golf.  I do tell them, and as you say, were I to just relax and play a shot there is a very high probability that I will instantly revert to my old path…and shank the ball.  Because that is exactly what happens 🙄
		
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I can tell you this, it wont get a lot easier, unless you hit 1000s of balls and even then, the old swing will just be hiding, waiting to pounce.
Adjust your aim, let your swing go where it wants and enjoy the long walk down the middle


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 20, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I don't really have lessons, for a number of reasons. One of them is that my driving range swing is already different to my on-course swing, and I think my "show me your swing" swing would be even worse - a self-conscious mess. But if you are in this scenario, the best thing to do might be to have a playing lesson. I've never done it myself but I suspect that would be of most benefit to me if I did want a lesson. That way I'd be focused on playing golf the way I normally do, and the pro would get a more accurate view of my game. Not the weird self-conscious swing I may do when there is no target and I know someone is watching over my shoulder for mistakes.

I had the same problem doing an iron-fitting last year. It was in an indoor studio so feeling slightly claustrophobic, just hitting at a screen whereas normally my golf routine is target-focused. Ended up shanking half the balls and the fitting was a waste of time.
		
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Exactly this. The moment I'm watched by a pro it falls apart.  I had exactly the same issue during a club fitting too.

I think some people are misinterpreting my view on this thread.  I don't think lessons are useless.  My issue is that I am such a beginner, with no consistent swing, that a pro who uses a 'show me your swing' approach is wasting their time and my money, because the swing they see and try and fix will change daily.  I need to be taught a swing first!


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Exactly this. The moment I'm watched by a pro it falls apart.  I had exactly the same issue during a club fitting too.

I think some people are misinterpreting my view on this thread.  I don't think lessons are useless.  My issue is that I am such a beginner, with no consistent swing, that a pro who uses a 'show me your swing' approach is wasting their time and my money, because the swing they see and try and fix will change daily.  I need to be taught a swing first!
		
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Then you need to find a pro that will help you build a swing.


Where are you based?


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## Neilds (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Exactly this. The moment I'm watched by a pro it falls apart.  I had exactly the same issue during a club fitting too.

I think some people are misinterpreting my view on this thread.  I don't think lessons are useless.  My issue is that I am such a beginner, with no consistent swing, that a pro who uses a 'show me your swing' approach is wasting their time and my money, because the swing they see and try and fix will change daily.  *I need to be taught a swing first!*

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 Do you sit down with the pro and chat about this before your first lesson.  Lessons are a 2 way thing and it is important that the pro knows what you need/expect out of the lesson


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			I need to be taught a swing first!
		
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Lesson 1 for newcomers.
This is how you hold it.
This is how you stand at the start.
This is how you stand at the end.
That's it.

You may feel you have a different swing every day but you probably don't.
Sure, there will be slight differences but the pro will see the general shape of the set-up and swing.

Your main problem is you don't trust your pro and you think ''there is a massive flaw'' with their approach to teaching which means you'll have no confidence in the advice being given.

You have to either learn to trust your pro or teach yourself watching Youtube.



Neilds said:



			Do you sit down with the pro and chat about this before your first lesson.  Lessons are a 2 way thing and it is important that the pro knows what you need/expect out of the lesson
		
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See post no.3


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 20, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Do you sit down with the pro and chat about this before your first lesson.  Lessons are a 2 way thing and it is important that the pro knows what you need/expect out of the lesson
		
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Yes I know and I do, but the approach so far from each has been to fall back on..."ok let me just see how you're swinging at the moment...." and there it goes.  I did once explicitly ask to be told exactly e.g. how to address the ball as I wasn't feeling comfortable with it and I was just told "it's fine, it looks good" but it clearly wasn't as I kept falling over my feet with weight on the toes (I only figured this out months later myself - sounds obvious but it wasn't at the time). I ended up watching a few youtube videos and went right back to basics, which fixed several issues at set up.  It scares me that I could have still been here 6 months later not able to touch the ball.  I'm still not there, of course.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Lesson 1 for newcomers.
This is how you hold it.
This is how you stand at the start.
This is how you stand at the end.
That's it.

You may feel you have a different swing every day but you probably don't.


See post no.3
		
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1. That would be a start.  Not had it yet.

2. I'm quite analytical and my swing does vary hugely - I can release my wrists or not; I can fire my hips or not; I can swing to the outside or not.  The list goes on.


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			1. That would be a start.  Not had it yet.

2. I'm quite analytical and my swing does vary hugely - I can release my wrists or not; I can fire my hips or not; I can swing to the outside or not.  The list goes on.
		
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I presume you have filmed your swing and watched all these problems ?


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I presume you have filmed your swing and watched all these problems ?
		
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Yes and no.  My pro(s) have filmed me and sometimes the errors are obvious and can be rectified e.g. swinging over the top.
But the 'feelings' I have described are very subtle and often can't be obviously picked up on camera, e.g. where my weight is and what I do with my wrists at split seconds.
I filmed myself the other day and quite honestly couldn't see any difference between the good one and bad one.


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

You may feel you have a different swing every day but you probably don't.
		
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Tommygun16 said:



			I filmed myself the other day and quite honestly couldn't see any difference between the good one and bad one.
		
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Going by your responses so far, I'd suggest Youtube is probably your best bet as you seem determined to be right and not listen to anyone who has a differing opinion.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Going by your responses so far, I'd suggest Youtube is probably your best bet as you seem determined to be right and not listen to anyone who has a differing opinion.
		
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The irony is the exact same could be said of you, who clearly has a contrary view to me and has sought only to pick holes rather than consider my experiences with the pro(s) I have seen.
If I had said above that I could easily see all the variations in my swing then that would be easy to fix, including for a pro.  You seem unable to comprehend that a lot of it stems from 'feels' (vs reals) and that the approach used by the people I have seen so far hasn't really helped much.  I suggest you stop commenting now as you're not interested in helping.


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			The irony is the exact same could be said of you, who clearly has a contrary view to me and has sought only to pick holes rather than consider my experiences with the pro(s) I have seen.
If I had said above that I could easily see all the variations in my swing then that would be easy to fix, including for a pro.  You seem unable to comprehend that a lot of it stems from 'feels' (vs reals) and that the approach used by the people I have seen so far hasn't really helped much.  I suggest you stop commenting now as you're not interested in helping.
		
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 I'm done.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			The irony is the exact same could be said of you, who clearly has a contrary view to me and has sought only to pick holes rather than consider my experiences with the pro(s) I have seen.
If I had said above that I could easily see all the variations in my swing then that would be easy to fix, including for a pro.  You seem unable to comprehend that a lot of it stems from 'feels' (vs reals) and that the approach used by the people I have seen so far hasn't really helped much.  I suggest you stop commenting now as you're not interested in helping.
		
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No one has a consistent repeatable swing. Every single one is different. You will have tendencies and patterns. There really isn’t much between flushing one and shanking one.

Try looking at Adam Young as he focuses more skill development than swing mechanics. 

As Bob said. There are a small number of laws that affect ball flight, and the ball doesn’t care how you swing to get there.


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## Val (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			The irony is the exact same could be said of you, who clearly has a contrary view to me and has sought only to pick holes rather than consider my experiences with the pro(s) I have seen.
If I had said above that I could easily see all the variations in my swing then that would be easy to fix, including for a pro.  You seem unable to comprehend that a lot of it stems from 'feels' (vs reals) and that the approach used by the people I have seen so far hasn't really helped much.  I suggest you stop commenting now as you're not interested in helping.
		
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This is hilarious, you are actually declining advice from the one guy here who can help you. 

For what my advice is worth, you should listen to Bobmac.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 20, 2022)

Val said:



			This is hilarious, you are actually declining advice from the one guy here who can help you.

For what my advice is worth, you should listen to Bobmac.
		
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Hi Val. Thanks for joining in at this point.  I'm sure Bobmac doesn't need any help here.  You both look like you've been on this site a while.

Interestingly enough, Bobmac didn't actually ask me anything directly on here until only a few messages ago.  He immediately assessed that I didn't trust my pro and my swing doesn't really have any variations.

Ergo - made his mind up and my experiences were null and void.  The Pros must have been doing a fantastic job.

Despite that, I still answered his questions politely, only to be ironically told that I had a closed mind.

Thanks for the 'help' but I'll pass thanks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I can tell you this, it wont get a lot easier, unless you hit 1000s of balls and even then, the old swing will just be hiding, waiting to pounce.
Adjust your aim, let your swing go where it wants and enjoy the long walk down the middle
		
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As I have been working on this change for over a year I have pretty much been able to replicate what I do on the practice ground by what I do in my pre-shot routine for every shot other than around the green chips…which for me is thinking fade; aimpoint left of where I want my ball to end up; and really feel myself hitting the ball to create fade spin.

But as you say.  If for any shot I think about doing anything else with my swing I can lose my discipline and it can go wrong.  Fortunately I am now able to keep disciplined about my pre-shot routine to enable me to knock it round in mid to high SFs over par, on pretty much any course I play. Plus, as my pro says when we review a round, I usually have plenty of low hanging fruit that with a bit of care can see me 3 or 4 shots lower.

On point of OP.  For me lessons have been absolutely essential, but what I have been tasked to do I would have failed on, and so I might have deemed lessons as being useless, had I not spent a lot of quite intense time working on it on the range.


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## Val (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Hi Val. Thanks for joining in at this point.  I'm sure Bobmac doesn't need any help here.  You both look like you've been on this site a while.

Interestingly enough, Bobmac didn't actually ask me anything directly on here until only a few messages ago.  He immediately assessed that I didn't trust my pro and my swing doesn't really have any variations.

Ergo - made his mind up and my experiences were null and void.  The Pros must have been doing a fantastic job.

Despite that, I still answered his questions politely, only to be ironically told that I had a closed mind.

Thanks for the 'help' but I'll pass thanks.
		
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I've read your replies and yes he's right, you have a closed mind. Like I say, he is the one guy who can help you here as he is a PGA pro.

Anyway.....

Enjoy your golf


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 20, 2022)

Val said:



			I've read your replies and yes he's right, you have a closed mind. Like I say, he is the one guy who can help you here as he is a PGA pro.

Anyway.....

Enjoy your golf
		
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Thank you for that reasoned and considered response, where you completely addressed my issues outlined above.  For a second I was concerned you were just going to blindly support your old mate Bob.

Enjoy!


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## Val (Sep 20, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			Thank you for that reasoned and considered response, where you completely addressed my issues outlined above.  For a second I was concerned you were just going to blindly support your old mate Bob.

Enjoy!
		
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My old mate? I don't know him other from what he posts here and he's been a great help to many over the years.

Like I say, he's the one guy who could help but you've dismissed. Good luck at finding answers


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2022)

The important point to learn in Golf is the correct 'impact condition'.  If that's not right all the swinging of the arms, gripping the club, turning the hips etc are pointless as they are only important as vehicles to get to that good impact condition.

I've had countless lessons over the years with various PGA Pros but not one of them explained clearly to me how the clubface needs to make contact with the ball.  All bad shots are due to the club making poor impact and not what happens before or after.  If your brain clearly understands the exact task it needs you to make then it will take care of how your body needs to move.  If you were to throw a ball as far as possible, snap a towel, drive a nail into a doorpost then you wouldn't need to concentrate on the way your shoulders, wrists, hips, feet etc should react to allow you to carry out the task, you already know how to do it.

Lesson one should show you a golf ball at rest and the way differing golf clubs need to approach and make sound contact with the ball.  Too many golfers spend a lifetime trying to help the ball in the air, cut across it, hit behind it because their brains don't have a clear understanding of good impact conditions.


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## Orikoru (Sep 20, 2022)

Val said:



			My old mate? I don't know him other from what he posts here and he's been a great help to many over the years.

Like I say, he's the one guy who could help but you've dismissed. Good luck at finding answers
		
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At the same time though, you can't say all pros have all the answers for every golfer can you? This particular golfer obviously requires a different approach to that of the pros he's tried and of Bob's.

Bob has helped countless people on here for sure, but that doesn't mean his advice is exactly right for everyone every time does it? It's only his learned opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The important point to learn in Golf is the correct 'impact condition'.  If that's not right all the swinging of the arms, gripping the club, turning the hips etc are pointless as they are only important as vehicles to get to that good impact condition.

I've had countless lessons over the years with various PGA Pros but not one of them explained clearly to me how the clubface needs to make contact with the ball.  All bad shots are due to the club making poor impact and not what happens before or after.  If your brain clearly understands the exact task it needs you to make then it will take care of how your body needs to move.  If you were to throw a ball as far as possible, snap a towel, drive a nail into a doorpost then you wouldn't need to concentrate on the way your shoulders, wrists, hips, feet etc should react to allow you to carry out the task, you already know how to do it.

Lesson one should show you a golf ball at rest and the way differing golf clubs need to approach and make sound contact with the ball.  Too many golfers spend a lifetime trying to help the ball in the air, cut across it, hit behind it because their brains don't have a clear understanding of good impact conditions.
		
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Exactly this…this is the philosophy of my pro and his team and how they teach…all levels of golf, including me.  And it works for me as I think of my dad (an old school cabinetmaker) and how effortless and perfectly he would drive in nails…he wasn‘t thinking backswing and follow through…


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## Val (Sep 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			At the same time though, you can't say all pros have all the answers for every golfer can you? This particular golfer obviously requires a different approach to that of the pros he's tried and of Bob's.

Bob has helped countless people on here for sure, but that doesn't mean his advice is exactly right for everyone every time does it? It's only his learned opinion.
		
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Which is fair but to dismiss his opinion on the way he did was hilarious. The OP has his own view of how he wants to progress and for me it appears that if you can't offer his way of thinking then you're wrong. 

I wish the OP well in pursuit of golfing improvement. As we all know, it ain't easy.


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## Orikoru (Sep 21, 2022)

Val said:



			Which is fair but to dismiss his opinion on the way he did was hilarious. The OP has his own view of how he wants to progress and for me it appears that if you can't offer his way of thinking then you're wrong.

I wish the OP well in pursuit of golfing improvement. As we all know, it ain't easy.
		
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Truth on both sides I suspect. Perhaps he just recognises Bob's approach as being similar to the pros he's already tried that he wasn't happy with. I know it can be frustrating when you want to do things a certain and it goes against what the majority are saying to you, especially with some of the more traditional-thinkers on this forum.


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## Tommygun16 (Sep 21, 2022)

Val said:



			Which is fair but to dismiss his opinion on the way he did was hilarious. The OP has his own view of how he wants to progress and for me it appears that if you can't offer his way of thinking then you're wrong.

I wish the OP well in pursuit of golfing improvement. As we all know, it ain't easy.
		
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I think you're read the thread backwards.  Look again - he dismissed me as being closed minded etc after I was politely answering his questions, simply because my approach/thoughts clearly didn't chime with his.  My retreat from that conversation came afterwards.


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## Val (Sep 21, 2022)

Tommygun16 said:



			I think you're read the thread backwards.  Look again - he dismissed me as being closed minded etc after I was politely answering his questions, simply because my approach/thoughts clearly didn't chime with his.  My retreat from that conversation came afterwards.
		
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No, I read it the whole way through as written.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 22, 2022)

Not read the entire thread, but:

As handicapped golfers, and especially the higher the handicap, of course we have inconsistent shots. Fats, thins, slices, hooks, shanks all in amongst some decent shots as well. But, I can assure you that most of us have consistent flaws that result in these issues. Don't be fooled that you have an abysmal swing when you hit an awful shot, and are swinging like McIlroy when you flush it.

A good professional should be able to spot what your major flaw or flaws are, and come up with some good swing thoughts and techniques for you to overcome this. Regardless of how you are hitting it.  However, due to the unfortunate issue of muscle memory, it takes a while to work on these. And, even if you achieve the changes required longer term, it may mean there are other issues that you then need to iron out. For example, habits that you got into to counter bad swing technique and therefore worked to some extent, but now causing you more grief now you solved the original problem.

Lessons will probably be most effective in the immediate term to the extreme beginner golfer. Get rid of some basic flaws straight away. Much harder for more experienced golfers, who have these bad habits ingrained within their muscle memory. They will work (with a decent pro), but it takes a lot of dedicated work to make the changes to your game, otherwise it is so easy to slip back into what you were doing before anyway. I reckon most of us do not have the patience to put the practice in. At best, we may hit a few shots at a range on a flat mat, end up endlessly swing driver to no particular target. At worst, we just try and make the changes while playing a round, and immediately get disheartened when we don't hit the perfect shot, and then start thinking about what else we can change, never discussed at the lesson.


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

The main problem with lessons is that teachers simply dont know what the essentials are to make a good swing. So they teach cosmetics, or what is visible in the swings of some good golfers according to the fashion of the moment, and hope that the pupil improves. Most are utterly ignorant of science and physics, and speak the most appalling technically incorrect rubbish.
So it is pot luck. Their random fiddle with your swing, of promted tips and urgings to change your action, are little better than making a few moves on a rubiks cube while blind folded - in theory the pieces could all move into place to solve the puzzle, but the chances are overwhelmingly that the result is just a different version of mess.


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## evemccc (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The main problem with lessons is that teachers simply dont know what the essentials are to make a good swing. So they teach cosmetics, or what is visible in the swings of some good golfers according to the fashion of the moment, and hope that the pupil improves. Most are utterly ignorant of science and physics, and speak the most appalling technically incorrect rubbish.
So it is pot luck. Their random fiddle with your swing, of promted tips and urgings to change your action, are little better than making a few moves on a rubiks cube while blind folded - in theory the pieces could all move into place to solve the puzzle, but the chances are overwhelmingly that the result is just a different version of mess.
		
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I don’t mean to be rude if it’s not, but is this comment meant as a joke?


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I don’t mean to be rude if it’s not, but is this comment meant as a joke?
		
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Not in the slightest.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The main problem with lessons is that teachers simply dont know what the essentials are to make a good swing. So they teach cosmetics, or what is visible in the swings of some good golfers according to the fashion of the moment, and hope that the pupil improves. Most are utterly ignorant of science and physics, and speak the most appalling technically incorrect rubbish.
So it is pot luck. Their random fiddle with your swing, of promted tips and urgings to change your action, are little better than making a few moves on a rubiks cube while blind folded - in theory the pieces could all move into place to solve the puzzle, but the chances are overwhelmingly that the result is just a different version of mess.
		
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Let me get this correct. You are telling us golf professionals, who do this for a living and got all the qualifications on how to swing a golf club, don't know what the essentials to the golf swing are? And you are qualified to say this because??????????

I've absolutely no doubt some professionals are not great, just like in any other walk of life. But a lot of professionals are not interested in the cosmetics at all. They are interested in your own physical limitations / strengths, and work around that. In fact, I have a loopy swing, which is cosmetically disgusting. Last pro I went to told me not to worry about that, as I was still getting club back into a good position at top, and focused more on another aspect of my swing that was actually causing me problems. My swing is still cosmetically horrific, but after a couple of lessons his advice has worked wonders this season.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Let me get this correct. You are telling us golf professionals, who do this for a living and got all the qualifications on how to swing a golf club, don't know what the essentials to the golf swing are? And you are qualified to say this because??????????

I've absolutely no doubt some professionals are not great, just like in any other walk of life. But a lot of professionals are not interested in the cosmetics at all. They are interested in your own physical limitations / strengths, and work around that. In fact, I have a loopy swing, which is cosmetically disgusting. Last pro I went to told me not to worry about that, as I was still getting club back into a good position at top, and focused more on another aspect of my swing that was actually causing me problems. My swing is still cosmetically horrific, but after a couple of lessons his advice has worked wonders this season.
		
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If that's what you were told then I would agree that the Pro wasn't giving you expert advice.

A good position at the top may look good and may indeed help towards your impact conditions. But unless the main focus is on the impact conditions then you will be throwing away good money. 

@Batsticks is absolutely correct in that many Golf Pros don't give the correct advice to students.  He is also correct that without a good understanding of the physics involved in creating a desired ballflight you will not be able to teach effectively.

When I consider people who have many lessons I don't see them making big improvements to their games.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If that's what you were told then I would agree that the Pro wasn't giving you expert advice.

A good position at the top may look good and may indeed help towards your impact conditions. But unless the main focus is on the impact conditions then you will be throwing away good money. 

@Batsticks is absolutely correct in that many Golf Pros don't give the correct advice to students.  He is also correct that without a good understanding of the physics involved in creating a desired ballflight you will not be able to teach effectively.

When I consider people who have many lessons I don't see them making big improvements to their games.
		
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Not sure you read my post correctly? 

The pro refrained from the cosmetically poor backswing, as that was not my fundamental issue. Instead, he focused on a key area through impact I was getting wrong, and gave we ways of improving it. As a result, I've had big improvement in my game, and a surprisingly successful season in club comps.

No doubt, if I continued with lessons, then other areas could be refined. I'm sure my backswing might sometime be a factor, although again maybe not. Furyk never changed his I guess.

My point was, if anyone can improve a players golf game, it is a golf professional. It certainly won't be the milk man or tesco delivery driver.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not read the entire thread, but:

As handicapped golfers, and especially the higher the handicap, of course we have inconsistent shots. Fats, thins, slices, hooks, shanks all in amongst some decent shots as well. But, I can assure you that most of us have consistent flaws that result in these issues. Don't be fooled that you have an abysmal swing when you hit an awful shot, and are swinging like McIlroy when you flush it.

A good professional should be able to spot what your major flaw or flaws are, and come up with some good swing thoughts and techniques for you to overcome this. Regardless of how you are hitting it.  However, due to the unfortunate issue of muscle memory, it takes a while to work on these. And, even if you achieve the changes required longer term, it may mean there are other issues that you then need to iron out. For example, habits that you got into to counter bad swing technique and therefore worked to some extent, but now causing you more grief now you solved the original problem.

Lessons will probably be most effective in the immediate term to the extreme beginner golfer. Get rid of some basic flaws straight away. Much harder for more experienced golfers, who have these bad habits ingrained within their muscle memory. They will work (with a decent pro), but it takes a lot of dedicated work to make the changes to your game, otherwise it is so easy to slip back into what you were doing before anyway. I reckon most of us do not have the patience to put the practice in. At best, we may hit a few shots at a range on a flat mat, end up endlessly swing driver to no particular target. At worst, we just try and make the changes while playing a round, and immediately get disheartened when we don't hit the perfect shot, and then start thinking about what else we can change, never discussed at the lesson.
		
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My experience precisely, as I work with my pro to correct the major flaw and swing habits that I developed to compensate for it that I grooved over a period of 35yrs, habits that enabled me to get to 6 but there I got stuck due to the major flaw.  My pro spotted the flaw immediately…

It’s taken a year so far…it is very difficult, and though I am getting there, the flaw and bad habits lurk just beneath the surface. But my pro knows the answer - it’s up to me to do it.

I note that today I knocked it round in 6 over par, but a momentary lapse of concentration on the 14th saw me hit very close to a shank…not the worse shot in the world but almost a shank nonetheless - the shank being the regular manifestation of my flaw and old habits.


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## garyinderry (Sep 22, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My experience precisely, as I work with my pro to correct the major flaw and swing habits that I developed to compensate for it that I grooved over a period of 35yrs, habits that enabled me to get to 6 but there I got stuck due to the major flaw.  My pro spotted the flaw immediately…

It’s taken a year so far…it is very difficult, and though I am getting there, the flaw and bad habits lurk just beneath the surface. But my pro knows the answer - it’s up to me to do it.

I note that today I knocked it round in 6 over par, but a momentary lapse of concentration on the 14th saw me hit very close to a shank…not the worse shot in the world but almost a shank nonetheless - the shank being the regular manifestation of my flaw and old habits.
		
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Have you got any videos of your old swing and your new one?

I'd love to see them.  Always interested in seeing these videos.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2022)

The approach used in this video is a good example of how golf should be taught IMO.

https://fb.watch/gfNxVYRXRI/

Heres another to promote some thought to learning:


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## Newtonuti (Oct 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The approach used in this video is a good example of how golf should be taught IMO.

https://fb.watch/gfNxVYRXRI/

Heres another to promote some thought to learning:







Click to expand...

How much did he charge you for posting his video? Got to be in the hundreds.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			How much did he charge you for posting his video? Got to be in the hundreds.
		
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😄


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			How much did he charge you for posting his video? Got to be in the hundreds.
		
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If he thinks the clubhead should be pointing at the sky at that point, he should go back to basics.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If he thinks the clubhead should be pointing at the sky at that point, he should go back to basics.
		
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You dont get it then Bob, did you listen to what he said.   The whole point is that you shouldn't manipulate the club into set positions.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2022)

Oh I get it all right.
He is basically saying that everyone should learn golf his way, by feel.
THERE IS NO ONE WAY TO LEARN GOLF.
Do you get that, if so, please stop telling me what I do and don't get.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Oh I get it all right.
He is basically saying that everyone should learn golf his way, by feel.
THERE IS NO ONE WAY TO LEARN GOLF.
Do you get that, if so, please stop telling me what I do and don't get.
		
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He's suggesting that we have natural abilities and our bodies know instinctively the best way to create momentum and the correct sequencing and we should tap into these natural abilities.  

He's not saying everyone should do anything, he's suggesting that letting go control and tension can improve the way you hit a golf ball.   

No need to get angry and post big lettering, surely we can all take a fresh look at things without being personal.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			He's suggesting that we have natural abilities and our bodies know instinctively the best way to create momentum and the correct sequencing and we should tap into these natural abilities.

He's not saying everyone should do anything, he's suggesting that letting go control and tension can improve the way you hit a golf ball. 

No need to get angry and post big lettering, surely we can all take a fresh look at things without being personal.
		
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I'm out


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'm out
		
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OK.  Shame you couldn't have a reasoned discussion on the subject but it's your prerogative.


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## Alan Clifford (Oct 20, 2022)

I've found this guy's videos helpful https://free-online-golf-tips.com/

Lessons I've found helpful if I went with a specific thing I wanted to look at - grip, stance whatever.


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			He's suggesting that we have natural abilities and our bodies know instinctively the best way to create momentum and the correct sequencing and we should tap into these natural abilities.

He's not saying everyone should do anything, he's suggesting that letting go control and tension can improve the way you hit a golf ball. 

No need to get angry and post big lettering, surely we can all take a fresh look at things without being personal.
		
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I've not heard a single possitve review about him.  I know one guy that went to him that said he should have saved his money and just watched a YouTube lesson as he only has one lesson in him.   He was particularly miffed when he was eating his lunch during the lesson!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			I've not heard a single possitve review about him.  I know one guy that went to him that said he should have saved his money and just watched a YouTube lesson as he only has one lesson in him.   He was particularly miffed when he was eating his lunch during the lesson!!!!
		
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His views on using the bodies natural ability to sequence the golf swing is absolutely spot on.  I first heard about this concept with Joe Hagen's book 'Nail It' along with his ' Three Skills' concept of learning to play golf.   Getting students to try and put the club in a number of set positions through the swing is a terrible way to coach.

If you think he has only one lesson in him then you've not studied his teaching.


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



*His views on using the bodies natural ability to sequence the golf swing is absolutely spot on. * I first heard about this concept with Joe Hagen's book 'Nail It' along with his ' Three Skills' concept of learning to play golf.   Getting students to try and put the club in a number of set positions through the swing is a terrible way to coach.

If you think he has only one lesson in him then you've not studied his teaching.
		
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who says he's spot on?  And of course the body natural movement sequences the club. That's like saying you have to naturally fire a gun by pulling the trigger.
I'm personally not an advocate for possition golf but that's doesn't mean it's that way or the other. 

I've watched about 10 or so YouTube and they are all samey.  Does he have any good players under him?  Genuine question as I don't know


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			who says he's spot on?  And of course the body natural movement sequences the club. That's like saying you have to naturally fire a gun by pulling the trigger.
I'm personally not an advocate for possition golf but that's doesn't mean it's that way or the other.

I've watched about 10 or so YouTube and they are all samey.  Does he have any good players under him?  Genuine question as I don't know
		
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I said he was spot on, you posted my quote.

The bodies natural sequencing is natural where you let it be.  Throw a stone, throw a dart, throw a javelin, your body uses its natural kinetic sequence to maximise the throwing action.  If you let a child hit a golf ball with a club, without telling them how to do it they will soon naturally create an optimum motion to swing the club.  What happens in traditional coaching is the student gets taught how to move their  hips, shoulders, arms, wrists, torso, they are told to move the club through various checkpoints and the result is often a tense uncoordinated swipe at the ball with no real concept of how to create good club ball impact.  It can also be bandaid fixes like putting down a head cover, put a towel under your arms, hold a ball between your elbows, these things might help for five minutes but in no time the student will return to their previous ways because they still don't really understand what is creating their thin/fat/ slice/hook.

I'm not interested in what he charges or 'What good players he has under him' (whatever that means)   that's just white noise.  The issue for me is what is the best way to teach golfers to play better golf and my observations are people like him and Joe Hagen have taken a refreshing approach that can really improve how people play the game.


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I said he was spot on, you posted my quote.

The bodies natural sequencing is natural where you let it be.  Throw a stone, throw a dart, throw a javelin, your body uses its natural kinetic sequence to maximise the throwing action.  If you let a child hit a golf ball with a club, without telling them how to do it they will soon naturally create an optimum motion to swing the club.  What happens in traditional coaching is the student gets taught how to move their  hips, shoulders, arms, wrists, torso, they are told to move the club through various checkpoints and the result is often a tense uncoordinated swipe at the ball with no real concept of how to create good club ball impact.  It can also be bandaid fixes like putting down a head cover, put a towel under your arms, hold a ball between your elbows, these things might help for five minutes but in no time the student will return to their previous ways because they still don't really understand what is creating their thin/fat/ slice/hook.

I'm not interested in what he charges or 'What good players he has under him' (whatever that means)   that's just white noise.  The issue for me is what is the best way to teach golfers to play better golf and my observations are people like him and Joe Hagen have taken a refreshing approach that can really improve how people play the game.
		
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Has he made any difference to your game?  I'm not being arsey, it's a genuine question.
What players a golf pro has under him is a direct measure of how good he is as a coach.  After 15 minutes of searching I've come up cold.  If what he was teaching was as good as you say he'd have at least a few.   I'm not saying what he teaches is wrong as I've never had a lesson with him and never tried his stuff.  He just seems like a Derek trotter of the golf world.


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## Backsticks (Oct 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The approach used in this video is a good example of how golf should be taught IMO.

https://fb.watch/gfNxVYRXRI/

Heres another to promote some thought to learning:







Click to expand...

Strikes me more as golf verbal diarrhea.

Strong contender for a prize for most words used to say nothing.


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## Backsticks (Oct 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I said he was spot on, you posted my quote.

The bodies natural sequencing is natural where you let it be.  Throw a stone, throw a dart, throw a javelin, your body uses its natural kinetic sequence to maximise the throwing action.  If you let a child hit a golf ball with a club, without telling them how to do it they will soon naturally create an optimum motion to swing the club.
		
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.i.e. the best golf coach is not to have one at all ?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			.i.e. the best golf coach is not to have one at all ?
		
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I don't agree.  Some don't need one, some need one who can clear their minds of dross they have been taught and show them how to be more uninhibited and free of tension in their golf swing, some need help with getting out of bunkers and short game.  Not having one at all is a slight simplification.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Strikes me more as golf verbal diarrhea.

Strong contender for a prize for most words used to say nothing.
		
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If that's all you see in it then that seems somewhat blinkered to me but of course feel free to see what you want.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			Has he made any difference to your game?  I'm not being arsey, it's a genuine question.
What players a golf pro has under him is a direct measure of how good he is as a coach.  After 15 minutes of searching I've come up cold.  If what he was teaching was as good as you say he'd have at least a few.   I'm not saying what he teaches is wrong as I've never had a lesson with him and never tried his stuff.  He just seems like a Derek trotter of the golf world.
		
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I don't understand who you think he should have under him.  One assumes he improves golfers who are struggling with their games, isn't that what Teaching Golf Professionals are supposed to do but they are not 'Under Him'. 
Regarding the Derek Trotter comment, I'm not sure why you needed to say that.


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## BridgfordBlue (Oct 21, 2022)

Lee762 said:



			From what I have heard PGA pros teaching at the ranges, it is very much hood the club face going back and then on the down swing turn hard left, which is the only way you can square the club face.

Whilst this seems logical, the amount of players I have seen that have had pretty consistent swings all of a sudden cannot keep the ball in play is shocking. I watch a player over a period of 3-4 months go from a steady 3 handicap player to someone who is struggling to break 90, due to the massive hooks and pulls. Granted when he is on song he is a good club longer and he may well groove the swing but until then he does not know where or when his miss will be.

Today all seems to be about power and don't worry too much about accuracy. Which to some degree I agree with this, however, if you are missing the fairways and green by large amounts then all the power in the world won't help.

I am definitely in the camp of needing and wanting more power and distance and I am willing to lose some accuracy but not to the point where Im missing fairways and greens by massive margins.
		
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Disagree with this. I had a few lessons recently and the pro suggested I try this due to my grip and my wrist movement in the backswing, he also said he wouldn’t show 95% of the people he teaches to do a similar movement he was getting me to do.  

That method is reliant on a lot of things that a lot of people can’t do. There’s always individual actions that a pro takes into account with things like that. If they’re not factoring that in, then I’d look for a different pro.


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## Slab (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The approach used in this video is a good example of how golf should be taught IMO.

https://fb.watch/gfNxVYRXRI/

Heres another to promote some thought to learning:







Click to expand...


I think he has a point (2nd vid) although the presentation and communication leave quite a bit to be desired (& maybe putting off viewers from listening)

It’d be great if we could just use our brains natural swing and still get the desired shot result (which is maybe where the vid should’ve started instead of leaving a poorly presented red/green/blue ‘demo’ to the end) but I think every player is still going to have to go someway down the ‘orthodox’ path of learning how to swing a club in order to make their natural swing effective/workable. 
Problem is once you start down that path and see the improved results of doing xyz (which wasn't in your initial swing) why would anyone not take another step and another and so on… and suddenly you’re quite far removed from what you initially had as your natural swing


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2022)

Slab said:



			I think he has a point (2nd vid) although the presentation and communication leave quite a bit to be desired (& maybe putting off viewers from listening)

It’d be great if we could just use our brains natural swing and still get the desired shot result (which is maybe where the vid should’ve started instead of leaving a poorly presented red/green/blue ‘demo’ to the end) but I think every player is still going to have to go someway down the ‘orthodox’ path of learning how to swing a club in order to make their natural swing effective/workable.
Problem is once you start down that path and see the improved results of doing xyz (which wasn't in your initial swing) why would anyone not take another step and another and so on… and suddenly you’re quite far removed from what you initially had as your natural swing
		
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It's worth looking at some of his other videos where he shows how to use our natural kinetic process in the golf swing.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2022)

I did watch the clip (the youTube one, second one I think). My only criticism is that he spent an absolute age at the start just saying the same thing over and over again. I know there needs to be an introduction, but he went on so long that I actually thought it was going to be one of those videos where the entire thing simply describes the problem, and then at the very end it says you need to make a payment to view videos of the solution.


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## Slab (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It's worth looking at some of his other videos where he shows how to use our natural kinetic process in the golf swing.
		
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That's the thing though, he may have some really interesting stuff to say but based on this example I just couldn't until he invests in his online productions
He could have this weeks loto numbers or a cure for cancer but its not gonna reach the audience it deserves when its basically a 15min cctv recording without a script 

I'm actually interested in (not necessarily my natural swing) but in swinging the club fluidly without any physical or mental tension and i think it might be connected to some of what he says but someone else might need to tell his story for me to get it


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2022)

Slab said:



			That's the thing though, he may have some really interesting stuff to say but based on this example I just couldn't until he invests in his online productions
He could have this weeks loto numbers or a cure for cancer but its not gonna reach the audience it deserves when its basically a 15min cctv recording without a script

I'm actually interested in (not necessarily my natural swing) but in swinging the club fluidly without any physical or mental tension and i think it might be connected to some of what he says but someone else might need to tell his story for me to get it
		
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OK , here's an abridged version:

Throw a golf ball into the distance. Note the way you automatically use your body to generate speed and weight shift.  Do the same with your golf swing. 🙂


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## Neilds (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			OK , here's an abridged version:

Throw a golf ball into the distance. Note the way you automatically use your body to generate speed and weight shift.  Do the same with your golf swing. 🙂
		
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Is that an underarm throw or overarm?  And What happens if i want to throw it further, or straighter, or with a fade/draw?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Is that an underarm throw or overarm?  And What happens if i want to throw it further, or straighter, or with a fade/draw? 

Click to expand...

He explains that.

Although, it doesn't really matter if it's over or underhand, the lesson is the way you would sequence your body naturally.  If you wanted to throw a golf ball 20 yards or 100 yards you would instinctively know how to do it.

The shaping of the shot is also something he explains very well, it's quite simple to understand.

I know you were pulling my leg but I find some of the comments here are sadly criticizing the way he explains things and missing the underlying message which could help a lot of Golfers improve their game.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			He explains that.

Although, it doesn't really matter if it's over or underhand, the lesson is the way you would sequence your body naturally.  If you wanted to throw a golf ball 20 yards or 100 yards you would instinctively know how to do it.

The shaping of the shot is also something he explains very well, it's quite simple to understand.

I know you were pulling my leg but I find some of the comments here are sadly criticizing the way he explains things and missing the underlying message which could help a lot of Golfers improve their game.
		
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He is only imagining pulling your leg softly, and then more rigorously, and trying to find out what the natural sequencing of his body would be to do this


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## hovis (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			OK , here's an abridged version:

Throw a golf ball into the distance. Note the way you automatically use your body to generate speed and weight shift.  Do the same with your golf swing. 🙂
		
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That's a really bad example.  The thing that sets golf apart from other movements is you are hitting an object with another object with pin point precision.  All this is made harder by the fact that your feet are and body remain stationary/centred The reason throwing a ball is easy is because your feet have total freedom.  To the point where some will lift their knee to the chest.  Keeping the feet planted is not a natural movement.   I know that the feet are not cemented to the floor before you say.  We'd all be playing like happy Gilmore if we done what felt natural


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			That's a really bad example.  The thing that sets golf apart from other movements is you are hitting an object with another object with pin point precision.  All this is made harder by the fact that your feet are and body remain stationary/centred The reason throwing a ball is easy is because your feet have total freedom.  To the point where some will lift their knee to the chest.  Keeping the feet planted is not a natural movement.   I know that the feet are not cemented to the floor before you say.  We'd all be playing like happy Gilmore if we done what felt natural
		
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I don't agree with any of that.  When you throw a golf ball you don't take a run up at it, you simply transfer your weight back and through, you unwind from the ground up so that you can finally accelerate your arms and then wrists using the freedom space and genetic energy you have created.  Yes, you are using a golf club to hit a ball but you have to create good impact conditions that require speed and angle of attack, many golfers never achieve these as they are constructed with tension in the body and poor sequencing.

Throwing is easy because our body knows how to do it correctly just like swinging axe, sledge hammer, anything but a golf club due to our minds misunderstanding the task because of the traditional confusing methods being taught.


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## hovis (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't agree with any of that.  When you throw a golf ball you don't take a run up at it, you simply transfer your weight back and through, you unwind from the ground up so that you can finally accelerate your arms and then wrists using the freedom space and genetic energy you have created.  Yes, you are using a golf club to hit a ball but you have to create good impact conditions that require speed and angle of attack, many golfers never achieve these as they are constructed with tension in the body and poor sequencing.

Throwing is easy because our body knows how to do it correctly just like swinging axe, sledge hammer, anything but a golf club due to our minds misunderstanding the task because of the traditional confusing methods being taught.
		
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You don't take a run up at it?  Do you watch cricket?  They most definitely take a run up.  Even if you didn't you still lift the lead leg clean off the floor to aid the back swing Durring a throw.  Look at a pitcher!!!!, tWhen you swing an axe or large hammer hard you lift the lead leg clean off the floor. You also have one hand almost next to the head of the implement.  At the end of the "back swing" you allow the lead arm to fold and you slide the hand all the way down from the head to the handle.   It's a completely different movement to golf.   All of the movements you make throwing a ball or swinging an axe force the body to work correctly.   We can't do that in golf or you'll miss the ball.

A golf swing is not a natural movement like you are suggesting.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			You don't take a run up at it?  Do you watch cricket?  They most definitely take a run up.  Even if you didn't you still lift the lead leg clean off the floor to aid the back swing Durring a throw.  Look at a pitcher!!!!, tWhen you swing an axe or large hammer hard you lift the lead leg clean off the floor. You also have one hand almost next to the head of the implement.  At the end of the "back swing" you allow the lead arm to fold and you slide the hand all the way down from the head to the handle.   It's a completely different movement to golf.   All of the movements you make throwing a ball or swinging an axe force the body to work correctly.   We can't do that in golf or you'll miss the ball.

A golf swing is not a natural movement like you are suggesting.
		
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I mean, no one is saying swinging a golf club is exactly the same motion as throwing a ball or swinging a cricket bat, and throwing a ball is not the same as swinging a cricket bat. 

But, the point is, there will be a natural body movement to swing a golf club most effectively. It will be a natural flowing body movement. It would be difficult to tell anyone McIlroy's swing is not a natural flowing movement. Sure, he'll have done a million drills over his lifetime to refine this, and I'm sure many will have been to improve / maintain that flowing movement. 

Of course, to most people swinging a golf ball is not a natural movement, because they don't do it enough. And, when they learn, they are so bogged down with drills they probably naturally develop loads of tension. So, it would be useful if they could learn to feel this.

Throwing a ball is not a natural movement btw to some people. And, most of us know exactly how that feels if we throw with our wrong hand.


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## hovis (Oct 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I mean, no one is saying swinging a golf club is exactly the same motion as throwing a ball or swinging a cricket bat, and throwing a ball is not the same as swinging a cricket bat.

But, the point is, there will be a natural body movement to swing a golf club most effectively. It will be a natural flowing body movement. It would be difficult to tell anyone McIlroy's swing is not a natural flowing movement. Sure, he'll have done a million drills over his lifetime to refine this, and I'm sure many will have been to improve / maintain that flowing movement.

Of course, to most people swinging a golf ball is not a natural movement, because they don't do it enough. And, when they learn, they are so bogged down with drills they probably naturally develop loads of tension. So, it would be useful if they could learn to feel this.

Throwing a ball is not a natural movement btw to some people. And, most of us know exactly how that feels if we throw with our wrong hand.
		
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I can't disagree with anything you have written.  My problem is with the notion that body movement is king.   I personally prefer the concept of " think about where you are putting the club and the body will do its thing.   When I play tennis I never think about a single thing the body is doing.  I just let it respond to what I'm doing with my hands.  Do you think about anything other than your hand when you are throwing a ball?  
This zen stuff (to me) looks like it's the tail trying to wag the dog

Like a I said before, this is from zero experience with zen because I haven't had a lesson from him.  I wouldn't either at that price.   Being as socket rocket like his concept so much I would very much like to hear from him if he ever has a zen lesson.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			I can't disagree with anything you have written.  My problem is with the notion that body movement is king.   I personally prefer the concept of " think about where you are putting the club and the body will do its thing.   When I play tennis I never think about a single thing the body is doing.  I just let it respond to what I'm doing with my hands.  Do you think about anything other than your hand when you are throwing a ball?  
This zen stuff (to me) looks like it's the tail trying to wag the dog

Like a I said before, this is from zero experience with zen because I haven't had a lesson from him.  I wouldn't either at that price.   Being as socket rocket like his concept so much I would very much like to hear from him if he ever has a zen lesson.
		
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I don't think about my hand at all when throwing a ball. I guess I am more focused on where I want the ball to go, and let my body do what it naturally does. 

I believe Jack Nicklaus said when kids are learning the game, they should first learn to hit it as far as they possibly can, and once they have that flowing movements they can slowly refine it to get things going in right direction. 

I am sure both aspects are needed. Flowing body movement for power and consistency, and suitable body positions for accuracy. The former might be most neglected


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			I can't disagree with anything you have written.  My problem is with the notion that body movement is king.   I personally prefer the concept of " think about where you are putting the club and the body will do its thing.   When I play tennis I never think about a single thing the body is doing.  I just let it respond to what I'm doing with my hands.  Do you think about anything other than your hand when you are throwing a ball? 
This zen stuff (to me) looks like it's the tail trying to wag the dog

Like a I said before, this is from zero experience with zen because I haven't had a lesson from him.  I wouldn't either at that price.   Being as socket rocket like his concept so much I would very much like to hear from him if he ever has a zen lesson.
		
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No, I've not had a lesson with them but that doesn't mean I don't understand what they're talking about.   Are you really suggesting I can't understand the concept without having a lesson, I can see how good Rory McIlroy's swing is but I don't need a personal demonstration from him to come to that conclusion.  The concept of concentrating on the task of creating good impact conditions by allowing the body to move naturally is not new to me, I first learned this concept many years ago from Joe Hagen's '3 Skills' method of golf tuition, I found it a breath of fresh air that blew away the traditional Golf Teaching methods.  It really improved my golf, I was already a fair golfer but this moved me on to a new level.

If you don't like it then that's ok but please don't suggest it's not good because it's expensive, many good coaches are expensive as that the way business tends to work, if the products good then many people will pay for it.


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## hovis (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I've not had a lesson with them but that doesn't mean I don't understand what they're talking about.   Are you really suggesting I can't understand the concept without having a lesson, I can see how good Rory McIlroy's swing is but I don't need a personal demonstration from him to come to that conclusion.  The concept of concentrating on the task of creating good impact conditions by allowing the body to move naturally is not new to me, I first learned this concept many years ago from Joe Hagen's '3 Skills' method of golf tuition, I found it a breath of fresh air that blew away the traditional Golf Teaching methods.  It really improved my golf, I was already a fair golfer but this moved me on to a new level.

If you don't like it then that's ok but please don't suggest it's not good because it's expensive, many good coaches are expensive as that the way business tends to work, if the products good then many people will pay for it.
		
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If you find it a breath of fresh air then why don't you use him and get to an even higher level?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			If you find it a breath of fresh air then why don't you use him and get to an even higher level?
		
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I said Joe Hagen was a breath of fresh air and that was 12 years back and I've incorporated these methods for a long time now.   I'm very happy with my current level and at my age I have no real pretentions of getting to a higher level.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I said Joe Hagen was a breath of fresh air and that was 12 years back and I've incorporated these methods for a long time now.   I'm very happy with my current level and at my age I have no real pretentions of getting to a higher level.
		
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I absolutely get it.

In fact I am being coached in a not dissimilar fashion…following the instinctive golf approach advocated by Kendal McWade.  I’m not yet doing it very well but it is certainly helping me to move away from what I had been doing for over 35yrs.  It’s important that I don’t get stuck over the ball at address as my head then tries to make my body swing the club the way my head thinks I should…problem is…what my head thinks is right is actually wrong.

Where I currently have most success with the approach is off the tee - with ‘woods‘ especially.  I can’t explain what happens or how I do it but, looking down the line, I create a picture in my mind of the shape of shot I want to play…I walk up to the ball; place the club head behind the ball; take a stance and almost immediately and without pausing I simply swing the club and hit the ball.  And most of the time I hit the ball with a free flowing swing…not always a great shot, but most of the time perfectly acceptable.

Importantly I have absolutely NO swing thoughts, and I know nothing about planes, positions, angles, transitions…nothing whatsoever, I let my body find where in space my swing needs to go to hit the short I have envisaged.  @dufferman and @Midnight both witnessed me actually doing this at Hayling H4H (first time I’ve taken the approach onto a course for 18holes)…goodness knows what they thought of it, probably thought it was rubbish (some of the shots most certainly were).

But as unconventional and non-trad a golf coaching method as it might be, it’s starting to work for me, and I will work on it over winter.  Maybe I’ll ask my coach to video me doing it.


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## Midnight (Oct 22, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I absolutely get it.

In fact I am being coached in a not dissimilar fashion…following the instinctive golf approach advocated by Kendal McWade.  I’m not yet doing it very well but it is certainly helping me to move away from what I had been doing for over 35yrs.  It’s important that I don’t get stuck over the ball at address as my head then tries to make my body swing the club the way my head thinks I should…problem is…what my head thinks is right is actually wrong.

Where I currently have most success with the approach is off the tee - with ‘woods‘ especially.  I can’t explain what happens or how I do it but, looking down the line, I create a picture in my mind of the shape of shot I want to play…I walk up to the ball; place the club head behind the ball; take a stance and almost immediately and without pausing I simply swing the club and hit the ball.  And most of the time I hit the ball with a free flowing swing…not always a great shot, but most of the time perfectly acceptable.

Importantly I have absolutely NO swing thoughts, and I know nothing about planes, positions, angles, transitions…nothing whatsoever, I let my body find where in space my swing needs to go to hit the short I have envisaged.  @dufferman and @Midnight both witnessed me actually doing this at Hayling H4H (first time I’ve taken the approach onto a course for 18holes)…goodness knows what they thought of it, probably thought it was rubbish (some of the shots most certainly were).

But as unconventional and non-trad a golf coaching method as it might be, it’s starting to work for me, and I will work on it over winter.  Maybe I’ll ask my coach to video me doing it.
		
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I actually thought you struck the ball well mate, the times when you weren't as good was when you had thoughts in your head, as I remember you came off the tee saying got to keep my head clear. 👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿


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