# Baroness Thatcher Dead



## StuartD (Apr 8, 2013)

Former Prime Minister has died of a stroke this morning.

Probably a large proportion of Scotland ready to rejoice


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## Akie (Apr 8, 2013)

It's going to be a long week with people debating her time as PM.


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## StuartD (Apr 8, 2013)

It certainly will be.

Very mixed review in my workplace. She gave us the poll-tax before the rest of the nation, but working for a company that made parts for the sea harrier she gave us a huge amount of overtime during the Falklands conflict and beyond!!!!


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## Neddy (Apr 8, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			Great news to start the week.
		
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I'm hardly in mourning but that's out of order...whatever her politics,how would you feel if it was your mother/grandmother and people were dancing in the street at the news of her death

How hard is it to just say nothing?


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## MikeH (Apr 8, 2013)

Few people wont have an opinion about Margaret Thatcher (be it good or bad) and debate and discussion are welcomed but I'm going to get in early and ask that folk just exercise a bit of thought when they post here on this thread


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 8, 2013)

RIP the iron lady.


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## golfsaint (Apr 8, 2013)

Lovely brilliant iron lady ! met and chatted to her after the Gulf war 1991 - she loved Britain !! RIP


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## Stuart_C (Apr 8, 2013)

Neddy said:



			I'm hardly in mourning but that's out of order...whatever her politics,how would you feel if it was your mother/grandmother and people were dancing in the street at the news of her death

How hard is it to just say nothing?
		
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I don't think she thought about that in 1989 when she and the  establishment were spreading lies to protect themselves when 96 people died at Hillsborough.


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## CMAC (Apr 8, 2013)

MikeH said:



			Few people wont have an opinion about Margaret Thatcher (be it good or bad) and debate and discussion are welcomed but I'm going to get in early and ask that folk just exercise a bit of thought when they post here on this thread
		
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Agreed! she was a politician and a human being, are people stooping so low now as keyboard warriors. Show some respect for people and life or don't post at all. :angry:


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

I wont be "celebrating" as such. However, she is a person that I hate with a passion.

This evil woman tried to manage the decline of my city, and with regard to "Orgreave" tried to turn this country into her own personal police state. 

Don't get me wrong, the unions needed reining in, I think ex council house home ownership was a good thing, but she was responsible for many,many bad things in her rein. Also under he administration, she helped to sweep the establishments negligence under the carpet and was part of the biggest cover up in my lifetime, with regards to Hillsborough.

No tears will be shed in my city, and I feel lots of northern and Scottish cities.


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## patricks148 (Apr 8, 2013)

I hope she's going somewhere warm


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## thecraw (Apr 8, 2013)

I have no doubt that she would turn around our floundering economy and nanny state at present.

God bless oor Maggie.


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## chrisd (Apr 8, 2013)

thecraw said:



			I have no doubt that she would turn around our floundering economy and nanny state at present.

God bless oor Maggie.
		
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I agree 100%


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

thecraw said:



			I have no doubt that she would turn around our floundering economy and nanny state at present.

God bless oor Maggie.
		
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I have no doubt either - but at whose cost? The underpriviliged and the weak is my bet.

And whose gain, the multi-millionaires and the capitalist system. Remember - more options are better. Are they, especially when the old can no longer heat their houses. Some choice. 

Eat or heat?


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## Jay Gee (Apr 8, 2013)

Although she made many mistakes including the introduction of poll tax which saw her political demise, she also did some great things and few politicians could match her for the courage of her convictions. She was an elected leader with clear aims unlike all the wishy washy, about-turning spin merchants we've had for the last 2 decades.

Her mistakes all but cancelled out her achievements and ultimately led to her political demise. Like her or loathe her though, they don't make 'em like they used to.


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## Val (Apr 8, 2013)

There will be little tears shed North of the Watford Gap, she wasnt called The Iron Lady for nothing.


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## chrisd (Apr 8, 2013)

Valentino said:



			she wasnt called The Iron Lady for nothing.
		
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I see that as a compliment though!


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## srixon 1 (Apr 8, 2013)

I spoke to her on the flght deck of HMS Hermes on the day that we returned from the Falklands. She seemed very relieved that the majority of us came back alive. She must have had some sleepless nights knowing that she had sent some young men to an early grave. She was good for the armed forces at times, but not sure about some of the other stuff, miners strike for instance.
RIP Maggie


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## dufferman (Apr 8, 2013)

Bit too young to know a lot about her time as PM, but her 'stick to my guns' attitude is the sort of politician that might turn things around in the country today. RIP.


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## thecraw (Apr 8, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I have no doubt either - but at whose cost? The underpriviliged and the weak is my bet.

And whose gain, the multi-millionaires and the capitalist system. Remember - more options are better. Are they, especially when the old can no longer heat their houses. Some choice. 

Eat or heat?
		
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Your right we're at an eat or heat state at present due to horrendous spineless leadership for years. Britain needs a strong leader and there is no doubting Maggie had more balls than Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron combined!


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## MarkA (Apr 8, 2013)

She did far more good than bad and at the end of the day she was a great stateswoman. No politician will please everybody and the more intelligent amongst us will recognise the good she did dragging Britain kicking and screaming from socialism
Hillsborough was a tragedy but it was scarcely Margaret Thatchers fault!


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## Paul_Stewart (Apr 8, 2013)

I had the chance to meet her when I worked at the House of Commons in the early 90s and also at the 1979 Young People's Parliament.  Politics aside, she was an inspirational leader and an amazing person who everyone at the Commons truly respected as she had time for everyone.


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## PieMan (Apr 8, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I see that as a compliment though!
		
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Indeed. Like her or Loathe her, she wasn't afraid to stand up for, or act on, what she believed in. I would rather have politicians like that over the ones we have now. Oh for the good old days where the Tory party were clearly to the right and Labour clearly to the left so you knew exactly where they stood on matters.


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## Val (Apr 8, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I see that as a compliment though!
		
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Depends on where you're looking from. 

Iron could easily be deemed heartless, ask the miners


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

As an ex squaddy who joined in the year she came to power I thought she was an excellent leader.
Addressed the issue of armed forces pay which had fallen ridiculously behind.
Had the balls to take a task force 8,000 miles to kick the butt of an aggressive invading foreign nation - rather than just being Americas bitch and helping them out in their conflicts.
Refused point blank to negotiate with terrorists.


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## PieMan (Apr 8, 2013)

Paul_Stewart said:



			......who everyone at the Commons truly respected as she had time for everyone.
		
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I know civil servants who worked at No.10 during the latter stages of her Premiership who do not have a bad word to say about her as a person. Knew everyone by name and treated them all with respect and kindness. 

Agree with thecraw on Thatcher compared to the useless bunch that followed her, and who we'll have to choose from at the next election.


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## Snelly (Apr 8, 2013)

She's the best leader of the nation that I have seen in my lifetime and I am sad to see her pass away.  I also sincerely hope that her family can mourn in relative peace.

It is pretty low to make political points on the day that she died.  People should show more restraint and respect.  


RIP Mrs T.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

I remember going into a greenkeepers mess room before an election and being wound up as to who I would vote for. All ten of the greenkeepers were voting for Maggie. I remember thinking that is the end of the Labour party.

Vanity was her weakness, same as Blair. Both should have gone after eight years and they would have been regarded as legends.
Thank goodness...no state funeral, that would have been messy.


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## Paul_Stewart (Apr 8, 2013)

PieMan said:



			I know civil servants who worked at No.10 during the latter stages of her Premiership who do not have a bad word to say about her as a person. Knew everyone by name and treated them all with respect and kindness. 

Agree with thecraw on Thatcher compared to the useless bunch that followed her, and who we'll have to choose from at the next election.
		
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There is one famous story about her escorting a foreign leader around the Palace of Westminster when she stopped in the main lobby, walked over to one of the doorkeepers, asked about his wife, congratulated him when she heard she had had her baby and spoke for a couple of minutes to him before returning to the tour.


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## Paul_Stewart (Apr 8, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			Great news to start the week.
		
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That is about as disgusting a comment that has ever appeared on this site.   Moderators - you ban people for trivial items, censor them for putting **** in words and you allow something like this?


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## Phil2511 (Apr 8, 2013)

Paul_Stewart said:



			That is about as disgusting a comment that has ever appeared on this site.   Moderators - you ban people for trivial items, censor them for putting **** in words and you allow something like this?
		
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See post number 6.


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## sydney greenstreet (Apr 8, 2013)

Paul_Stewart said:



			That is about as disgusting a comment that has ever appeared on this site.
		
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You have not been on much then EH !


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## bigslice (Apr 8, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			As an ex squaddy who joined in the year she came to power I thought she was an excellent leader.
Addressed the issue of armed forces pay which had fallen ridiculously behind.
Had the balls to take a task force 8,000 miles to kick the butt of an aggressive invading foreign nation - rather than just being Americas bitch and helping them out in their conflicts.
Refused point blank to negotiate with terrorists.
		
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yes she took us too war but only to calm Britain down and stop the unrest and bring unity.


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## sydney greenstreet (Apr 8, 2013)

I hated the women with a passion, But she is still someone's Mum so I will leave it at that.


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## Shaunmg (Apr 8, 2013)

Although I'm an ex-miner who when through the big strike. I don't like to speak ill of the dead. If you can't find something good to say, then say nothing.


So for that reason I say nothing


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

bigslice said:



			yes she took us too war but only to calm Britain down and stop the unrest and bring unity.
		
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so that was the only reason was it? thanks for letting me know


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## Captainron (Apr 8, 2013)

She saw the country through some pretty bad times. Strong leader and by the sounds of things a nice person too. Sad times.


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## JustOne (Apr 8, 2013)

Just goes to show how people seem to get old so quickly!

I have nothing but respect for her, having an ambition to run your own Country, and achieving it, is no mean feat. Easy to mock from the comfort of your armchair/keyboard. Apparently we all know best. There's talking the talk then there's walking the walk!

RIP.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 8, 2013)

Paul_Stewart said:



			That is about as disgusting a comment that has ever appeared on this site.   Moderators - you ban people for trivial items, censor them for putting **** in words and you allow something like this?
		
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Calm down dear.

My facebook timeline is mental, and as a nationalist I never liked the bird.I'm not sad she's dead, but I'll not celebrate.

I'll not observe any minutes silence,though.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

I have a feeling that this thread could be the equivalent of Luis Suarez leaving to go to Rangers sevco, whilst hitting a "traveller" with a Miura wedge, whilst his shirt is untucked in his loopless shorts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2013)

Don't know how many here can remember the UK in the 1970's.  Well I can - it was a pretty grim, grey and miserable place.  Come the 1990s the UK was a very, very different country.  Now how much of that difference - good and bad - can be attributed to the time Thatcher was at the helm I don;t know - and the truth is that NO-ONE knows what the country would have been like if she'd not been Prime Minister.  And that is the truth of it.  So all the glowing plaudits and the damning criticisms of her and her legacy will be.  The past is past.  I was never a fan of her in her time.  I will not mourn her passing nor will I rejoice in it.  My condolensces go out to her family and close friends.


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## SyR (Apr 8, 2013)

I will not mourn her passing. She made some very popular decisions with regard to the Falklands, armed forces and hostage situations but she also caused a lot hurt with her domestic policies. 

I think it's sensible not to give her a state funeral as it saves the debate about Major, Blair, Brown e.t.c...in the future.


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## HotDogAssassin (Apr 8, 2013)

Great news to start the week.
		
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Paul_Stewart said:



			That is about as disgusting a comment that has ever appeared on this site.   Moderators - you ban people for trivial items, censor them for putting **** in words and you allow something like this?
		
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Agree 100% with Paul, I consider the comment to be highly offensive!


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## Val (Apr 8, 2013)

sydney greenstreet said:



			I hated the women with a passion, But she is still someone's Mum so I will leave it at that.
		
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I think that point will be echoed in a lot of towns.

I have mixed emotions about her, im ex forces also and I know she was all for her boys (as she put it). I'm also long enough in the tooth to realise that without the right to buy you council house I may be in rented council accomodation, many people who hated the torries in the 80's are now living like torries of the 80's.

That said, she had the YOP/YTS scheme which ruined the chances of apprenticeships for many people like me leaving school in the mid/late 80's. She also had 18 year olds paying poll tax which was an absolute nonsense and you could argue the privatising of many national institutions is why gas/electricty and many other utilities are as high as they are. I could talk about the steel industry also, the car industry etc etc who were all destroyed under her leadership.

There is her family who have lost a mother/grandmother and for that im sorry.


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## deanobillquay (Apr 8, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I have a feeling that this thread could be the equivalent of Luis Suarez leaving to go to Rangers sevco, whilst hitting a "traveller" with a Miura wedge, whilst his shirt is untucked in his loopless shorts.
		
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:rofl:

RIP Maggie.


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I think that point will be echoed in a lot of towns.

I have mixed emotions about her, im ex forces also and I know she was all for her boys (as she put it). I'm also long enough in the tooth to realise that without the right to buy you council house I may be in rented council accomodation, many people who hated the torries in the 80's are now living like torries of the 80's.

That said, she had the YOP/YTS scheme which ruined the chances of apprenticeships for many people like me leaving school in the mid/late 80's. She also had 18 year olds paying poll tax which was an absolute nonsense and you could argue the privatising of many national institutions is why gas/electricty and many other utilities are as high as they are. I could talk about the steel industry also, the car industry etc etc who were all destroyed under her leadership.

There is her family who have lost a mother/grandmother and for that im sorry.
		
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The car industry and British Steel were destroyed by the previous labour government/ trade unions before Mags came to power.


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## Val (Apr 8, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			The car industry and British Steel were destroyed by the previous labour government/ trade unions before Mags came to power.
		
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She put the icing on the cake, Ravenscraig close under her tenure.


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

Valentino said:



			She put the icing on the cake, Ravenscraig close under her tenure.
		
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This is the thing that people constantly forget, many of the unfortunate decisions that are made by governments are (in the earlier years)  forced upon them by the poor tenure of the previous government.  

Bilston Steelworks (near to where I grew up) closed in April 1979, if they had stayed open for 3, 6, 9, 18 months more before closing would that then have made the closure Maggie's fault?

I see however people have forgotten that she was the milk snatcher!


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## Val (Apr 8, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			I see however people have forgotten that she was the milk snatcher!
		
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The boys have just spoken about this in work, I didnt particularly like tepid milk anyway


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## gripitripit (Apr 8, 2013)

Speaking as an Irishman (Republican) I have no opinion one way or the other except she was someones mother and grandmother ..etc so my thoughts go with the family. As for the politics...no thank you.


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## Mono (Apr 8, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			I hope she's going somewhere warm

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I am sure/hope she is!!


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2013)

Sad news for me. An inspirational, astounding lady. RIP Maggie.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 8, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Refused point blank to negotiate with terrorists.
		
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Yeah, that evil Mandela bloke.


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## bigslice (Apr 8, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			so that was the only reason was it? thanks for letting me know
		
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yes I think it was, as it was great PR and it helped her stay in power. just my thoughts and opinions and no need to thank me for letting you know.


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## CMAC (Apr 8, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yeah, that evil Mandela bloke.
		
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oh dear!


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## thecraw (Apr 8, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yeah, that evil Mandela bloke.
		
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The Mandela's are responsible for an awful lot more than Thatcher ever will be.


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## Val (Apr 8, 2013)

thecraw said:



			The Mandela's are responsible for an awful lot more than Thatcher ever will be.
		
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I think that was FD's point regarding negotiating with terrorists.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 8, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I think that was FD's point regarding negotiating with terrorists.
		
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Not really. I was suggesting that her opposition to sanctions against the SA apartheid regime might have been another of her failings. But seem to have unwittingly wandered into a minefield.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

I believe that the powerful union leaders of that time killed more British industry than Maggie ever did.
They were nearly all communists and more in control of the country than our elected leaders.


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## mikee247 (Apr 8, 2013)

Im not sure any PM in modern times make themselves popular to everyone. Can anyone honestly suggest a popular one since her?? War time Pm's are always more defined in their legacy and especially ones that actually lead rather than be led. In terms of someone who meant well and loved her country and more importantly stood up against the US and took no crap from anyone, she was a legend. I understand that the Northern contingent wont like her and I get that. Unions in the 70's and 80's nearly ruined this country not Maggie. She had to make some tough decisions and hey thats not going to please everyone. I had family in the industries that died such as mining etc but life is sometimes tough, so you buckle up and get on with it, they have!  

Im not sure we've ever been great as a country since Maggie run the show.  We could do with someone else like her now to lead us out of the crap! Cameron????? Hes not fit to clean her shoes. Fair play to you girl. RIP  :thup:


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## chrisd (Apr 8, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I believe that the powerful union leaders of that time killed more British industry than Maggie ever did.
They were nearly all communists and more in control of the country than our elected leaders.
		
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Correct Doon! where would we be if she hadn't stood up to the likes of Robinson and Scargill who were so much more militant than the unions leaders of today?

No leader is going to be liked by all, but, as someone who goes back to times before Harold Wilson, Maggie did much to give us all the living standard we have today which I can assure the younger members was pretty poor when she came to power.


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## Rooter (Apr 8, 2013)

Sure are a lot of people with nothing to say!! 

RIP Maggie.


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## Iaing (Apr 8, 2013)

She will divide the country in death as she did in life.

Can't say that I feel one way or the other about her death.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

Her final years in office were quite farcical. Any minister who disagreed with her got booted and she was left with the likes of Jonathan Aitken and Neil MacFarlane [?] [and we all know what happened to them!]
If the Tories were not so inbred they would have given Hessaltine his chance and I think British politics would have been totally different.


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2013)

thecraw said:



			I have no doubt that she would turn around our floundering economy and nanny state at present.

God bless oor Maggie.
		
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She helped create our floundering economy, and contributed to the world economic crisis by establishing London as a place where the US banks could come and do deals they couldn't do in the US. She also started the process of selling off the NHS and burdening hospitals and schools throughout the country with crippling and unsustainable PFI bills. Monetarism as an economic policy has now been shown to have failed. 

The nanny state is just an obsession of the Daily Mail and its readers.


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I believe that the powerful union leaders of that time killed more British industry than Maggie ever did.
They were nearly all communists and more in control of the country than our elected leaders.
		
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is the correct answer


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

Valentino said:



			The boys have just spoken about this in work, I didnt particularly like tepid milk anyway
		
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I do when it's free


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## bunkered (Apr 8, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			I hope she's going somewhere warm

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I very warm.


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## Wildrover (Apr 8, 2013)

I was in the armed forces and she did do some good for us, but I'm also from South Yorkshire and grew up during the miner's strike and I can never forgive her for that. Whole communities totally decimated to close profitable pits as coal was not the fuel of the future. Nearly 30 years later and we have to import most of our coal from Germany and Poland whilst the former pit villages have never recovered. I say bury her down Maltby Pit which closed last week. I have held back on what I really think of her as I do not want a ban / infraction.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 8, 2013)

I just found this on twitter and thought it sums up my thoughts


Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister when I was born
And on hearing of her death, the country seems to be torn
Between those have respect for an old ladyâ€™s passing
And those who are joyous, and scathingly, almost laughing.

For someone whoâ€™s been out of power for over twenty years
It seems somewhat callous for her death to meet with cheers.
Political issues naturally cause quite a lot of debate
But after a stroke, aged 87, I feel she doesnâ€™t deserve the hate.

This lady took the top job, in a body made by men;
Sheâ€™s a significant historical figure, and weâ€™ll never see her like again.
You donâ€™t have to respect the politics, you donâ€™t even have to care
But if you have nothing nice to say, itâ€™s more respectful not to share.

So my condolences to her family, at this most saddening hour.
Baroness Thatcher showed that girls donâ€™t have to be afraid of power.
We can step up and have opinions, and even run the country too;
This lady wasnâ€™t for turning, and she just did what she had to do.

................,,


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## patricks148 (Apr 8, 2013)

Ethan said:



			She helped create our floundering economy, and contributed to the world economic crisis by establishing London as a place where the US banks could come and do deals they couldn't do in the US. She also started the process of selling off the NHS and burdening hospitals and schools throughout the country with crippling and unsustainable PFI bills. Monetarism as an economic policy has now been shown to have failed. 

The nanny state is just an obsession of the Daily Mail and its readers.
		
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at last some one who understands the economic impact she had on the country..and your forgot, selling off all the NI at a fraction of there worth to her hubbys mates on the stock market!


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## Kellfire (Apr 8, 2013)

Just too early for me to truly understand the impact she had on the nation but everyone I meet who did know her policies holds a strong view one way or another.

Clearly a flawed person but holding one person responsibly for an entire government's decisions and actions is short sighted and petty.


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## Dellboy (Apr 8, 2013)

R I P Maggie, a true leader and a fine PM, God Bless You Girl.


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## rosecott (Apr 8, 2013)

She wasn't a Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Bin Laden or Gaddafi. She was a frail old lady, loved by her family and respected by many.


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2013)

I remember struggling through the strikes of the mid and late 70's. Of being told by Union reps what jobs I could and couldn't do, and who I had to know. Of seeing a Union rep drive up to a picket line and say "keep it up lads," then drive off.

I didn't agree with some of what she did but I will be forever grateful for creating a workplace that didn't have a Union rep watching your every move, who rollocked you for "working too hard and killing the job."

Whatever your politics, would it really hurt you to give her some rest in peace?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

Dellboy said:



			R I P Maggie, a true leader and a fine PM, God Bless You Girl.
		
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Someone called Dellboy saying Maggie was great!
Who is next Loadsamoney?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

Ethan said:



			She also started the process of selling off the NHS and burdening hospitals and schools throughout the country with crippling and unsustainable PFI bills. Monetarism as an economic policy has now been shown to have failed. 

The nanny state is just an obsession of the Daily Mail and its readers.
		
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You are blaming the wrong people there.  It was John Major as Prime Minister that started using PFis, Maggi had gone by then.   The scheme was massively accelerated by the last labour government.   I guess you would prefer a regime like North Korea's , I think they probably have some spare places there if you would feel more at home.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			at last some one who understands the economic impact she had on the country..and your forgot, selling off all the NI at a fraction of there worth to her hubbys mates on the stock market!
		
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Like Gordon Brown selling off the countries gold reserves at a fraction of it's value.


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Like Gordon Brown selling off the countries gold reserves at a fraction of it's value.
		
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If you think I liked Gordon Brown very much more than Thatcher, you are sadly mistaken. 

Deflection is a poor argument, used only in the absence of any substantive arguments.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Someone called Dellboy saying Maggie was great!
Who is next Loadsamoney?
		
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Very cheap shot.  And you know it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Very cheap shot.  And you know it.
		
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Och lighten up Socket. It was a JOKE!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

Ethan said:



			If you think I liked Gordon Brown very much more than Thatcher, you are sadly mistaken. 
.
		
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Your not 'patricks148'  so I have no opinion on your feelings for Mr Brown.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 8, 2013)

The finest PM since the war. RIP.

Mods, please close this thread.


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## thecraw (Apr 8, 2013)

Ethan said:



			She helped create our floundering economy, and contributed to the world economic crisis by establishing London as a place where the US banks could come and do deals they couldn't do in the US. She also started the process of selling off the NHS and burdening hospitals and schools throughout the country with crippling and unsustainable PFI bills. Monetarism as an economic policy has now been shown to have failed. 

The nanny state is just an obsession of *the Daily Mail and its readers*.
		
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I'll take that as a compliment thanks. I used to just look at the pictures in the Daily Sport. Newspapers are just luxury items to paupers like me!


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## Dodger (Apr 8, 2013)

I have fond memories of waving a red card at her at the cup final of 1988.

She won't be missed by me,far from it.


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## Dodger (Apr 8, 2013)

Oh and she dies with blood on her hands in more than one way.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Oh and she dies with blood on her hands in more than one way.
		
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Agreed, with "friends" like Pinochet, sums it up really.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

MarkA said:



			She did far more good than bad and at the end of the day she was a great stateswoman. No politician will please everybody and the more intelligent amongst us will recognise the good she did dragging Britain kicking and screaming from socialism
Hillsborough was a tragedy but it was scarcely Margaret Thatchers fault!
		
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No-one said it was her fault. Did she "allow" the cover up, yes she did.

That is why 96 families still can't grieve properly, so don't tell me about kissing babies in the house of commons, knowing the tea ladies favourite biscuits etc, as it just wont wash. (I know it wasn't you who said it,BTW).


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

I can detect a distinct North/South divide on this one.
I wonder why that is?


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can detect a distinct North/South divide on this one.
I wonder why that is?
		
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I don't remember "managed decline" being mentioned in the southern cities. Not as many ports,pits, steel yards, engine manufacturers in the south.

Actually, not as many open in the north now,either. I wonder why?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I have fond memories of waving a red card at her at the cup final of 1988.

She won't be missed by me,far from it.
		
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The people who advised her to visit a Scottish Cup final must go down as the most inept gaffs of our time.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I don't remember "managed decline" being mentioned in the southern cities. Not as many ports,pits, steel yards, engine manufacturers in the south.

Actually, not as many open in the north now,either. I wonder why?
		
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The Unions, thats why.      

Not many ports in the South. Really?


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

bigslice said:



			yes I think it was, as it was great PR and it helped her stay in power. just my thoughts and opinions and no need to thank me for letting you know.
		
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I was in fact being sarcastic, yes it did help her win a second term but your suggestion as to why we went to war are to be honest ridiculous.


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not really. I was suggesting that her opposition to sanctions against the SA apartheid regime might have been another of her failings. But seem to have unwittingly wandered into a minefield.....
		
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Sanctions against a country that has significant reserves of Uranium are always going to be pretty much a non starter tbh


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## stevie_r (Apr 8, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Oh and she dies with blood on her hands in more than one way.
		
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Name a PM current or previous that doesn't


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			The Unions, thats why.      

Not many ports in the South. Really?
		
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Yes there are, succesful ports I should have said. Some northern ones are only just recovering as we speak, some never again.


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## wrighty1874 (Apr 8, 2013)

mikee247 said:



			Im not sure any PM in modern times make themselves popular to everyone. Can anyone honestly suggest a popular one since her?? War time Pm's are always more defined in their legacy and especially ones that actually lead rather than be led. In terms of someone who meant well and loved her country and more importantly stood up against the US and took no crap from anyone, she was a legend. I understand that the Northern contingent wont like her and I get that. Unions in the 70's and 80's nearly ruined this country not Maggie. She had to make some tough decisions and hey thats not going to please everyone. I had family in the industries that died such as mining etc but life is sometimes tough, so you buckle up and get on with it, they have!  

Im not sure we've ever been great as a country since Maggie run the show.  We could do with someone else like her now to lead us out of the crap! Cameron????? Hes not fit to clean her shoes. Fair play to you girl. RIP  :thup:
		
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Agree with you and Craw. You're never going to get everything right, but a remarkable and inspirational lady, with more kahunas than the chinless wonders since, in all three main parties. RIP Mrs T.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

I liked this quote from her:

"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money."


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

Just heard the news as been out golfing today and a few frames of snooker afterwards. RIP Maggie none of the last few PM's can come close. Mistakes were made but then again who doesn't. The last great leader we have had and looking at what's around today the last we will have for a long time.


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## El Bandito (Apr 8, 2013)

Like her or loathe her, I respect her achievement in becoming the Prime Minister. The first female Prime Minister. I respect her record in elections. I respect her the courage of her convictions even if I didn't agree with all of them. RIP Baroness T.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 8, 2013)

I suggest many of those critiscising have forgotten the 70's with power cuts, mass unemployment, 3 day weeks and the country at the beck and call of the unions. Under Maggie we became a force on the global economy, had a military might, a leader not scared to exercise that might. I thought she was just what the country needed after the mess Callaghan, etc left us in and she was steadfast and resolute in the pursuit of her policies. Lets face it, she survived being blown up and was back working within hours. Can't knock her. History will show her time in power as a pivotal time in UK politics

On a slightly lighter note, I use to be Maggie's pay clerk for a time when she was PM. I made a "mistake" and got a hand written letter asking for me to correct the error signed by her. It got "lost" from her file when I left and may be making its way to an e-bay page near you soon


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2013)

How Crass..........BBC have a pre-recorded memorial programme on Maggie Thatcher narrated by Andrew Marr.

They must have made it at least 2 months ago.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm not blinkered enough not to realise that the unions had strangled the country from one side, however what Thatcher did from the other side was just as bad, if not worse. I do/did agree with the sell off of council houses (even though my parents did not take advantage) and possibly some of her other policies (though can't think of any).

I don't trust any of the politicians TBH, and dont follow any sides any more, although always left leaning.

However, to paint her as some sort of supergran, lovable, saviour of this country is a total whitewash. She smashed the unions and the country is a lot worse off for it nowadays, with hardly any manufacturing/production base anymore, and I see thatcher's hands all over that. 

If both the unions and her acolytes weren't as entrenched in their ways, we would probably have a lot more factories now, she won the battle.

But did the country, sadly no.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 8, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I suggest many of those critiscising have forgotten the 70's with power cuts, mass unemployment, 3 day weeks and the country at the beck and call of the unions. Under Maggie we became a force on the global economy, had a military might, a leader not scared to exercise that might. I thought she was just what the country needed after the mess Callaghan, etc left us in and she was steadfast and resolute in the pursuit of her policies. Lets face it, she survived being blown up and was back working within hours. Can't knock her. History will show her time in power as a pivotal time in UK politics
		
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Hear hear!!!


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

She did smash the unions and probably went to far with it. However the union bully boys were their own worst enemy as the slightest little thing they did not like they downed tools and went on strike, Winter of discontent springs to mind. We cannot return to those days and if Milliband gets voted in the again the unions will start to hold the country to ransom


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## bigslice (Apr 8, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			I was in fact being sarcastic, yes it did help her win a second term but your suggestion as to why we went to war are to be honest ridiculous.
		
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we may go to war again here to protect our british sOIL but the forgeign office had been trying for years to get rid of the falklands well before the war. and in my opinion she only put us to war was to bring calm and unity to the uk, but these are only my thoughts. I hope you can tell me why you think she put us to war.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			She did smash the unions and probably went to far with it. However the union bully boys were their own worst enemy as the slightest little thing they did not like they downed tools and went on strike, Winter of discontent springs to mind. We cannot return to those days and if Milliband gets voted in the again the unions will start to hold the country to ransom
		
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Totally agree, we can't return to them days. Did we return to them days when labour were in power last, no. That is just tory scaremongering again. Labour are nothing like the beast in the 70's, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

Clause IV was removed years ago.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Totally agree, we can't return to them days. Did we return to them days when labour were in power last, no. That is just tory scaremongering again. Labour are nothing like the beast in the 70's, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

Clause IV was removed years ago.
		
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Agreed we did not return to those days under the last Labour Governments but Blair and Brown were not helped to power and backed by the unions unlike Ed Milliband. Had D.Milliband been given the leadership of the Labour party the next election would have been a total whitewash and myself as a Tory voter normally would have voted for him as I think he would have done a decent job. However Ed is a different case altogether and the MP's that he has in the top jobs are all far to left wing for me and along with his union backing quite frankly worries me


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## stevek1969 (Apr 8, 2013)

Never speak ill of the deceased, but i'm glad she's gone she used Scotland as testing ground for all her scheme's . Totally destroyed industry. Dundee used to have mass empolyment in factories and a ship yard, Fife had it coals mines all gone due to her and her Tory Party.


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## DappaDonDave (Apr 8, 2013)

Ill be wearing black and white tomorrow!

A great leader with bigger balls than most of her male counterparts pre and post thatcher!


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## Sweep (Apr 8, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Clause IV was removed years ago.
		
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Clause IV was removed because of Mrs. Thatcher. I am old enough to remember the 3 day week. The winter of discontent, weak government at the mercy of unelected unions. If ever a leader came along at the right time it was Mrs. Thatcher. As Mr. Cameron said, she not only lead Britain, she saved Britain. God bless Mrs. Thatcher. RIP.


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## Sweep (Apr 8, 2013)

Snelly said:



			She's the best leader of the nation that I have seen in my lifetime and I am sad to see her pass away.  I also sincerely hope that her family can mourn in relative peace.

It is pretty low to make political points on the day that she died.  People should show more restraint and respect.  


RIP Mrs T.
		
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Absolutely agree. I am stunned that the miners union leader in Durham was crass enough to say on the BBC that he would be celebrating tonight and that Sky showed Gerry Adams spouting political diatribe. Have they forgotten the IRA tried to murder her? Has our society lost all it's morals? Do we have no respect for the dead?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Clearly a flawed person...
		
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Not that sure she was a flawed person at all.  Determined and principled - absolutely.  And pretty damned ruthless to do what she believed was right - even when she knew that she would be 'hated' by some and disliked by many for doing it.  Flawed - no - well not in my eyes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How Crass..........BBC have a pre-recorded memorial programme on Maggie Thatcher narrated by Andrew Marr.

They must have made it at least 2 months ago.
		
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I don't see that as particularly crass.  250 scots in George Square, Glasgow celebrating her passing - now THAT'S crass.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Absolutely agree. I am stunned that the miners union leader in Durham was crass enough to say on the BBC that he would be celebrating tonight and that Sky showed Gerry Adams spouting political diatribe. Have they forgotten the IRA tried to murder her? Has our society lost all it's morals? Do we have no respect for the dead?
		
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I know the miners will not have Maggie in their favourite persons book and I can understand why but for their union leader to say on TV what you are saying he said is disgusting and is one of the reasons why I have no sympathy or support for unions. The majority of the union leaders are loudmouth bully boy yobs who like to do nothing better than stir up trouble. If he said what you say then he should not be allowed to spout his vile drivel on TV ever again.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that sure she was a flawed person at all.  Determined and principled - absolutely.  And pretty damned ruthless to do what she believed was right - even when she knew that she would be 'hated' by some and disliked by many for doing it.  Flawed - no - well not in my eyes.
		
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So everything she did was ok?

There may be some blind people on the left to good things she did, but my god, some absolutely myopic people on the right who thought she done no wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			I know the miners will not have Maggie in their favourite persons book and I can understand why but for their union leader to say on TV what you are saying he said is disgusting and is one of the reasons why I have no sympathy or support for unions. The majority of the union leaders are loudmouth bully boy yobs who like to do nothing better than stir up trouble. If he said what you say then he should not be allowed to spout his vile drivel on TV ever again.
		
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Probably on the BBC, they encourage that type of diatribe.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably on the BBC, they encourage that type of diatribe.
		
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Yes they are not exactly neutral in their political leanings are they!!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

Her big political defeat was the Poll Tax.   I could never understand the problem with it though, the principal that everyone earning in a household should pay towards local services seemed quite fair.   I tend to remember most of the fuss was made by Trotsky type students from the Socialist Workers party (none of them actually worked though)


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## Slime (Apr 8, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I have no doubt either - but at whose cost? The underpriviliged and the weak is my bet.

And whose gain, the multi-millionaires and the capitalist system. Remember - more options are better. Are they, especially when t*he old can no longer heat their houses*. Some choice. 

Eat or heat?
		
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I know many old people, eighty years old or more, who can heat their houses/flats and they live as far north as Preston.
I think that was a rather sweeping generalisation.



Paul_Stewart said:



			" Originally Posted by *Stuart_C* http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?p=799749#post799749 
                 Great news to start the week".


That is about as disgusting a comment that has ever appeared on this site.   Moderators - you ban people for trivial items, censor them for putting **** in words and you allow something like this?
		
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Totally agreeing with you *Paul_Stewart*, some people are just sick!

*Slime*.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Her big political defeat was the Poll Tax.   I could never understand the problem with it though, the principal that everyone earning in a household should pay towards local services seemed quite fair.   I tend to remember most of the fuss was made by Trotsky type students from the Socialist Workers party (none of them actually worked though)
		
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It was. I cant remember the ins and outs of it that well but I can recall the aggro over it. In my case I had not been working long when it was introduced and so lived at home with parents who both worked, this meant we were paying 3 times what we would normally pay. However a friend of ours earnt more than the 3 of us put together as he was Director of a large company, he lived at home with his wife and son neither of whom worked but he was paying 2 times less than us. This cannot be right surely. I know my Dad went on one of the protests down London and he is a Tory voter like myself and is definitely not a Trotsky type student. I was only young at the time so this may not be 100% accurate.


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## DappaDonDave (Apr 8, 2013)

Slime, my nan lives in Fleetwood as is still able to heat her home! That's even further north of than Preston!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

Slime said:



			I know many old people, eighty years old or more, who can heat their houses/flats and they live as far north as Preston.
I think that was a rather sweeping generalisation.

So are you not bothered about the ones North of Preston?

Can you hear yourself? Maybe not the rich ones living on the banks of the seaside towns, but I'm on about the old and infirm who can only think about which de-nationalised, corporate, monolithic utilities company to pay Â£1,500 a year to.
		
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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			It was. I cant remember the ins and outs of it that well but I can recall the aggro over it. In my case I had not been working long when it was introduced and so lived at home with parents who both worked, this meant we were paying 3 times what we would normally pay. However a friend of ours earnt more than the 3 of us put together as he was Director of a large company, he lived at home with his wife and son neither of whom worked but he was paying 2 times less than us. This cannot be right surely. I know my Dad went on one of the protests down London and he is a Tory voter like myself and is definitely not a Trotsky type student. I was only young at the time so this may not be 100% accurate.
		
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I think the premis was that the size of your house or what you earn had nothing to do with your household use of local services, generally the more people in the house the more they consume services.   This is something I tend to see as fair just like the rate of income tax, I would prefer there to be a standard rate and the more you earn the more you pay but at one rate.

Anyhow this is not what this thread is about and I shouldn't prevaricate the subject.


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## Garesfield ACE (Apr 8, 2013)

Wouldnt personally"rejoice" in anyones death, but I've waited for the passing of 2 people for many many years.THATCHER and Maradona,for completely different reasons.Like many Northerners have stated on here I also HATE the woman with a PASSION.She destroyed the miners in the North East and caused huge splits in mining families and friends,like my own,some that never ever recovered.Also like others have said I wont say what I really think as I will get banned.Also I am not one bit surprised atbout  90% of people I no who have reacted more or less in that "rejoice" type of way.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 8, 2013)

I think one thing we can see overall from this thread, is that she managed to split the country in half, of that there is no doubt.

Off to bed now, I won't dance on her grave, but I won't sit back and see a whitewash either.

Good night all, yes all.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the premis was that the size of your house or what you earn had nothing to do with your household use of local services, generally the more people in the house the more they consume services.   This is something I tend to see as fair just like the rate of income tax, I would prefer there to be a standard rate and the more you earn the more you pay but at one rate.

Anyhow this is not what this thread is about and I shouldn't prevaricate the subject.
		
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No it isn't I agree. However my final thought on that subject is regardless of how many people are in the house the service used is generally the same such as 1 bin to be collected etc so it was political suicide on her part and really was the nail in the coffin as far as she was concerned


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2013)

I find this North/South, Scottish/English diatribe quite remarkable.  The size of the chips on some shoulders is concerning you can really feel the depth of what seems real divisive hatred festering.

How on earth can this nation move on with any form of unity while people paint whole geographical areas with the same brush.   The comments about people north of preston having problems with heating their houses would be funny if it was not so pathetic, does anyone honestly think all the elderly south of that parallel are sitting with the heat on and windows open.

Give me strength


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## Sweep (Apr 8, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I won't dance on her grave, but I won't sit back and see a whitewash either..
		
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I don't think anyone is pretending that everything she did was perfect, but the vast, vast majority of what she did was neccesary and this country would be in a much poorer state without her. She offered strong leadership. Something we could do with nowadays.


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## Sweep (Apr 8, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't see that as particularly crass.  250 scots in George Square, Glasgow celebrating her passing - now THAT'S crass.
		
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And therein lies the problem. How can you govern for people like that? People who take pleasure in an old lady's death. She hasn't been a force in politics for 23 years. Now you have George Galloway, a sitting MP, saying he hopes she burns in hell! Isn't he the leader of the Respect Party? Respect? You couldn't make it up.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 8, 2013)

George Galloway if ever there was a more obnoxious vile man than him in politics. He is a lowlife of the highest order and I hope he gets his comeuppance one day


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## El Bandito (Apr 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I think one thing we can see overall from this thread, is that she managed to split the country in half, of that there is no doubt.

Off to bed now, I won't dance on her grave, but I won't sit back and see a whitewash either.

Good night all, yes all.
		
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I absolutely agree that she polarised, indeed polarises opinion and I have no doubt that she was not perfect. The fact that she can prompt such emotion even now is testament to the impact (for good and bad) that she had on our country and in many ways shaped the political landscape where elections are still fought. I believe that it is great that she provokes such passion, but sad that she provokes such vitriol. Whether we agree with her or not, she was elected 3 times and ran the country for a decade. I am no fan of Mr Blair, but respect his achievement in resurrecting the Labour Party and getting them elected and will certainly not celebrate his passing when it comes.


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## PNWokingham (Apr 9, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Clause IV was removed because of Mrs. Thatcher. I am old enough to remember the 3 day week. The winter of discontent, weak government at the mercy of unelected unions. If ever a leader came along at the right time it was Mrs. Thatcher. As Mr. Cameron said, she not only lead Britain, she saved Britain. God bless Mrs. Thatcher. RIP.
		
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Well said - I agree - right person at the right time. The country was completely ruined when she came in. Some actions went too far, undoubtedly, and we could have ended up keeping a mining industry if the unions were pragmatic - but I blame them for how it ended up not Mrs T - our competitive position in the global economy improved during her tenure. I would have loved to see our car industry remain British owned and successful - following the slow death during the 70s - but the Germans, Japanese and Indians have at least boosted production to new highs and shown how to run things without the Marxist stranglehold that used to be employed


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2013)

Snelly said:



			She's the best leader of the nation that I have seen in my lifetime and I am sad to see her pass away.  I also sincerely hope that her family can mourn in relative peace.

It is pretty low to make political points on the day that she died.  People should show more restraint and respect.  


RIP Mrs T.
		
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Just about sums it up. Well said Snelly.
I bet myself, and many others like me, wouldn't now own our own homes were it not for Maggie.


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## chrisd (Apr 9, 2013)

I wonder how many people posting actually lived in the era before her election and knew just how appalling the state of the country was and, tough as it was, she almost single handidly turned things round. Unpopular she was, and still is, in mining and car making areas but the pits and factories were being paid for by the tax payer and losing money as if it were going out of fashion. The unions were holding everyone to ransom and, frankly, something had to be done - they would have all gone bust anyway.

The poll tax was her disaster but I remember when it was first mooted and basically it was a sound idea - anyone working in a household paid their portion of tax. I think the problem was that for the moderate amongst us, the actual figure for each of us was set too high. As a pair living together with no kids at that time, my rates went up and not down as I was led to believe it would under the new system!

If you lived through the era, then you are more likely to mourn her passing and regret that the current crop of politicians are pale by her standards.


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

R.I.P Maggie.

Met her a few times whilst serving and more so when she was in office. A true Iron Lady who showed more grit and conviction than any other leader we've had since.

You knew where you stood with her, whether you liied it or not, there was no middle ground or U-Turns like we see now from all parties.  The country needs another Maggie now, and quickly.


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## PNWokingham (Apr 9, 2013)

A pretty balanced article attached

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...reedom-for-workers-nations-and-the-world.html


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## evahakool (Apr 9, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			Just about sums it up. Well said Snelly.
I bet myself, and many others like me, wouldn't now own our own homes were it not for Maggie.
		
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Smiffy I to brought my council house, and it helped me move up the property ladder latter in life,but IMO it was her Policys that created
such a  attitude of greed and selfishness. I,ve no doubt many benifted from her time in office, but if we put ourselfs in a mining community we would find that they are still feeling the negative effects of her policy's to this day. 

I was no fan of Thatcher, but at the same time admired her for what she achieved.

Some of the comments on here are deplorable,even if you disliked her give her and her family some respect..


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

PNWokingham said:



			A pretty balanced article attached

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...reedom-for-workers-nations-and-the-world.html

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Charles Moore, the author of that piece is Thatcher's biographer. Hagiographer, more like.


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## Snelly (Apr 9, 2013)

I saw the front page of the Socialist Worker today.  Utterly vile.  

I am genuinely proud to be everything that the Liberal left hate.   An proper Englishman. 


Some of the responses on this thread are deplorable too.  Some of you should be ashamed.


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## Wildrover (Apr 9, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I wonder how many people posting actually lived in the era before her election and knew just how appalling the state of the country was and, tough as it was, she almost single handidly turned things round. Unpopular she was, and still is, in mining and car making areas but the pits and factories were being paid for by the tax payer and losing money as if it were going out of fashion. The unions were holding everyone to ransom and, frankly, something had to be done - they would have all gone bust anyway.

The poll tax was her disaster but I remember when it was first mooted and basically it was a sound idea - anyone working in a household paid their portion of tax. I think the problem was that for the moderate amongst us, the actual figure for each of us was set too high. As a pair living together with no kids at that time, my rates went up and not down as I was led to believe it would under the new system!

If you lived through the era, then you are more likely to mourn her passing and regret that the current crop of politicians are pale by her standards.
		
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I can remember the 70's, the 3 day week, power cuts etc.

I also remember the 80's, no jobs at all, families divided, whole towns/villages thrown on the scrapheap.

Life may have been better in London and the South but don't tell me it was better up here.

Like someone else mentioned, the term "managed decline" was never used down South.

I did live through the era and I raised a glass last night, good riddance.


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## chrisd (Apr 9, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			I can remember the 70's, the 3 day week, power cuts etc.

I also remember the 80's, no jobs at all, families divided, whole towns/villages thrown on the scrapheap.

Life may have been better in London and the South but don't tell me it was better up here.

Like someone else mentioned, the term "managed decline" was never used down South.

I did live through the era and I raised a glass last night, good riddance.
		
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We are all entitled to our own opinion and I am sure that yours is stated with the same conviction as mine and that is politics for you. I dont get though, the raising of a glass to anyone dying and fear that it's just that sort of comment that led Mike H to issue his warnings of decency  on the forum only last week.

Shame on you for that last sentence!


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## thecraw (Apr 9, 2013)

tick tick tick!


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Her big political defeat was the Poll Tax.   I could never understand the problem with it though, the principal that everyone earning in a household should pay towards local services seemed quite fair.
		
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Was it fair for a YTS trainee on Â£35 a week in 1991 to pay Â£6 a week poll tax? I don't think so. The concept was no doubt correct it was how it was implemented that was wrong.



SocketRocket said:



			I find this North/South, Scottish/English diatribe quite remarkable.
		
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She pretty much exacerbated the divide.



Sweep said:



			And therein lies the problem. How can you govern for people like that? People who take pleasure in an old lady's death. She hasn't been a force in politics for 23 years. Now you have George Galloway, a sitting MP, saying he hopes she burns in hell! Isn't he the leader of the Respect Party? Respect? You couldn't make it up.
		
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Did Thatcher respect the Scottish people when she introduced the poll tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK? Is it any wonder the Torries are hated up here? She is probably one of the reasons we have the SNP as strong as it is and that is unforgiveable 



Smiffy said:



			Just about sums it up. Well said Snelly.
I bet myself, and many others like me, wouldn't now own our own homes were it not for Maggie.
		
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That is a given Smiffy, I said it yesterday on here that those who hated the Torries in the 80's are now probably living like Torries of the 80's.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 9, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I find this North/South, Scottish/English diatribe quite remarkable.  The size of the chips on some shoulders is concerning you can really feel the depth of what seems real divisive hatred festering.

*How on earth can this nation move on with any form of unity while people paint whole geographical areas with the same brush. *  The comments about people north of preston having problems with heating their houses would be funny if it was not so pathetic, does anyone honestly think all the elderly south of that parallel are sitting with the heat on and windows open.

Give me strength 

Click to expand...

Hopefully we won't be ;-)


Sweep said:



			And therein lies the problem. How can you govern for people like that? People who take pleasure in an old lady's death. She hasn't been a force in politics for 23 years. Now you have George Galloway, a sitting MP, saying he hopes she burns in hell! Isn't he the leader of the Respect Party? Respect? You couldn't make it up.
		
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Galloway is a prize knob.Anyone who voted for him gets what they deserve.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2013)

It is unseemly and demeaning to dance upon a grave.


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is unseemly and demeaning to dance upon a grave.
		
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Off course it is but no everyone will show respect as many have seen deep consequences of her governments actions so it's understandable that people will be happy.


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## CMAC (Apr 9, 2013)

Here's a comment I heard on a political radio discussion programme this morning.......

I paraphrase........."yes she made mistakes, but if the policies were so bad for Scotland why didn't Labour reverse them when they came to power, and why hasn't the SNP now reversed them?"

I don't know how much or any of that is true but a good point I thought.........


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## CMAC (Apr 9, 2013)

chrisd said:



			We are all entitled to our own opinion and I am sure that yours is stated with the same conviction as mine and that is politics for you. *I dont get though, the raising of a glass to anyone dying and fear that it's just that sort of comment that led Mike H to issue his warnings of decency  on the forum only last week.

Shame on you for that last sentence!*

Click to expand...

well said.


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## Stuart_Wales (Apr 9, 2013)

I live in the South Wales valleys. And her handywork is still clear to see to this day. I 100% disagree with toasting any death, but she wont be missed in these parts. 

RIP


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			So everything she did was ok?

There may be some blind people on the left to good things she did, but my god, some absolutely myopic people on the right who thought she done no wrong.
		
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I'm absolutely *not* saying that everything she did was OK - but does doing somthing that someone else disagrees with make you flawed?  I just don't think it's an apt word tyo use to descrivbe her.   If you think was flawed you won;t be able to undeerstand what she was trying to achieve - whetehr you agree with it or not.  Semantics maybe and I know what you are getting at.  I was no fan of Thatcher and she is still the main reason I cannot see myself voting Tory - ever.  Never have - possibly never will.


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## Sweep (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Did Thatcher respect the Scottish people when she introduced the poll tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK? Is it any wonder the Torries are hated up here? She is probably one of the reasons we have the SNP as strong as it is and that is unforgiveable .
		
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Sorry, when I said respect I should have said common basic human decency. The very minimum standards of behaviour we can expect from each other. What ever your politics, there can be no excuse for disrespecting the dead within hours of their passing. Incidentally , it is often forgotten that the Community Charge (as it was called) was included in the Tory manifesto for the 1987 General Election. The nation voted for it. However, as cabinet minister Parkinson said at the time "nothing concentrates the mind more than a bill hitting the door mat." It is also true that Mrs. T wasn't happy with it but also thought the Rates system unfair. She wanted to scrap local government tax altogether but was persuaded that there should be some link between the taxpayer and local authority as this may help lower taxing authorities to be elected. If we are being fair we should accept that this is a problem that is still wrestled with by today's politicians eg the Lib Dems mansion tax.


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## Shaunmg (Apr 9, 2013)

I was a coal miner for 22 years and saw out 3 strikes 1972, 74 and 84 being the most bitter. During the late 60s early 70s the miners pay had fallen way behind the average industrial worker in the UK. 

Coal was plentiful, oil was cheap. The miners had no bargaining power, that was until the Arab oil crisis of that era. I remember as a young miner in 1972 we had to buy our own tools, picks, shovels and even our safety helmets and boots. It was all deducted from your pay. If you had a day sick they would stop 2 days pay, for 2 days it was 3, and so on. Thatâ€™s why we stuck in the early 70s. Not to bring a government down

  1984; Forget union leaders, Arthur Scargill and the likes. Her attack was against miners and their families, most of whom never attended a union meeting in the lives, they just wanted to protect their jobs and family. She tried to starve us and our kids into submission. She introduced sweeping emergency powers using the police as her private political army, no cost spared. She closed every single avenue whether it be free school meals or slightest monetary benefit for the desperate minerâ€™s families. 

She had 2 objectives, revenge for 72 and 74 and to break the unions. If that meant closing down an industry and devastating whole towns and communities for ever more, then as far as she was concerned it was a price worth paying. She didnâ€™t care about the families

She went further; her policies saw the whole of manufacturing industry destroyed in favour of a southern based financial and banking economy. 3.5 million Unemployed, to fiddled the figures she moved droves onto disability allowance rather than dole, the fore runner of todayâ€™s much discredited DLA. We have seen the result of her shift from industry to banking. So thanks for that Maggie, your legacy lives on

So now may she rest in peace, alongside the souls of the conscript young sailors she sent to the bottom of the South Atlantic


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2013)

DarthVega said:



			Here's a comment I heard on a political radio discussion programme this morning.......

I paraphrase........."yes she made mistakes, but if the policies were so bad for Scotland why didn't Labour reverse them when they came to power, and why hasn't the SNP now reversed them?"

I don't know how much or any of that is true but a good point I thought.........
		
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Where would they get the money from?
All sold off for a fraction of what they were worth, just not viable. 
As for Council house sales, great for the few that got a house cheap, but not for the councils that built them and could not use the proceeds to build more. 

What do we have now, a massive shortage of affordable housing!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Where would they get the money from?
All sold off for a fraction of what they were worth, just not viable. 
As for Council house sales, great for the few that got a house cheap, but not for the councils that built them and could not use the proceeds to build more. 

What do we have now, a massive shortage of affordable housing!
		
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Not surprising there is a shortage of housing when we have allowed over 4 million people into the country over the last decade.  We were never going to build houses for that number.   Cant blame her for that one.


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## HotDogAssassin (Apr 9, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			the souls of the conscript young sailors she sent to the bottom of the South Atlantic
		
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You put forward a very reasoned and intelligent statement, but REALLY let yourself down with your final comment.


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## SyR (Apr 9, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Where would they get the money from?
All sold off for a fraction of what they were worth, just not viable. 
As for Council house sales, great for the few that got a house cheap, but not for the councils that built them and could not use the proceeds to build more. 

What do we have now, a massive shortage of affordable housing!
		
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Totally agree!


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## Slime (Apr 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			So are you not bothered about the ones North of Preston?

Can you hear yourself? Maybe not the rich ones living on the banks of the seaside towns, *but I'm on about the old and infirm who can only think about which de-nationalised, corporate, monolithic utilities company to pay Â£1,500 a year to.*

Click to expand...

Well, you should have made that clear in your post then, maybe we would have understod what you meant.



SocketRocket said:



			I find this North/South, Scottish/English diatribe quite remarkable.  The size of the chips on some shoulders is concerning you can really feel the depth of what seems real divisive hatred festering.

How on earth can this nation move on with any form of unity while people paint whole geographical areas with the same brush.   The comments about people north of preston having problems with heating their houses would be funny if it was not so pathetic, does anyone honestly think all the elderly south of that parallel are sitting with the heat on and windows open.

Give me strength 

Click to expand...

What *SocketRocket* said.



Wildrover said:



			I can remember the 70's, the 3 day week, power cuts etc.

I also remember the 80's, no jobs at all, families divided, whole towns/villages thrown on the scrapheap.

Life may have been better in London and the South but don't tell me it was better up here.

Like someone else mentioned, the term "managed decline" was never used down South.

I did live through the era and *I raised a glass last night, good riddance.*

Click to expand...

You're a sick puppy. Celebrating the death of an old lady who is a mother and a grandmother is really quite disturbing.

*Slime*.


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## PieMan (Apr 9, 2013)

Stuart_Wales said:



			I live in the South Wales valleys. And her handywork is still clear to see to this day. I 100% disagree with toasting any death, but she wont be missed in these parts. 

RIP
		
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A touch of class about this post.


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## JPH (Apr 9, 2013)

Well no tears from me 

Her support for the apartheid regime in SA was a particularly sad policy 

Unions are the reason we get sick pay , holidays etc  

She had her way you'd get nothing


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 9, 2013)

PNWokingham said:



			A pretty balanced article attached

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...reedom-for-workers-nations-and-the-world.html

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Hmmm... I think we have a different definition of the word "balanced" it puts a certain spin on things and contradicts my recollection of her handling of SA (it was a long time ago, admittedly!  )

Regardless....

I also consider it crass and inappropriate to celebrate her death. She achieved a lot, and deserves credit for being the first female PM. Sadly not for many of her policies.

She was a polarising figure - an idol of the right, enemy of the left and people's views of her will be shaded by their own political perspective. For me, as a student in the latter years of her time as PM, I was not an admirer. In addition to everything raised here already how about abolishing student grants and introducing "Section 28"?

I'm too young (don't get to say that often enough any more!) to know what working in the 70s was like and whether posters are correct to suggest that she needed to tackle the unions and close down so much of our heavy industry. Consider this, however. Assuming it's true that these industries were inefficient and dependant on government subsidy at least they provided jobs and respect for people. All that was really achieved by encouraging the free market and international capitalism and allowing these industries to die was that the work moved to low-cost economies. 

Now we have millions unemployed and millions more underemployed relying on benefits and working tax credits; much has been made of this by the tory supporters on here. Which was better - subsidising industries to provide real jobs or subsidising the people who can't find jobs paying a living wage?

Perhaps there was another option that she was too ruthless or dogmatic to explore?

The poll tax thing is interesting. I had long bought into the line that it was "tried out" in Scotland first but have actually been persuaded overnight that wasn't the case at all. It seems English councils weren't as prepared for it as up here and the secretary of state pushed for it to go ahead to try to deflect the grief he was receiving over the rates system. Possibly the best argument to support this is that is it had just been a trial why didn't she cancel the roll out in England since it was such a disaster up here?


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Apr 9, 2013)

RIP, a strong leader, oh how we could do with that quality right now!


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Incidentally , it is often forgotten that the Community Charge (as it was called) was included in the Tory manifesto for the 1987 General Election. The nation voted for it. However, as cabinet minister Parkinson said at the time "nothing concentrates the mind more than a bill hitting the door mat." It is also true that Mrs. T wasn't happy with it but also thought the Rates system unfair. She wanted to scrap local government tax altogether but was persuaded that there should be some link between the taxpayer and local authority as this may help lower taxing authorities to be elected. If we are being fair we should accept that this is a problem that is still wrestled with by today's politicians eg the Lib Dems mansion tax.
		
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Scotland got it before everyone else, what happened one nation and all that?


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## freddielong (Apr 9, 2013)

RIP quite simply one of the greatest Britons


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2013)

Did the south do brilliant under thatcher, did the police, did the army, did multi-millionaires, bankers, capitalists - yes.

Did the north suffer under thatcher,did the manufacturing industries,did the old, infirm,unemployed - yes.

Strong leadership, - yes, but only beneficial on the right side of the divide.

I think we have reached a stage of "the cult of personality" with thatcher.

The German economy come through the 1980's, sometimes with inferior products, but they still have a large manufacturing base.


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## Imurg (Apr 9, 2013)

I find it quite a sad state of affairs that this "debate" is only being held because an Old Lady has died and that so many have held such a grudge for so long. 
If she hadn't would this have started?

She did good, she did bad - mirroring every PM before and since.
Not everyone liked her, not everyone hated her.
But she stood up for what she believed was right - isn't that what everyone who hated her is doing? Scargill, Hatton and all the rest?
Everyone on here being glad she's gone - stating what they believe to be right?
She just had a different point of view.

Life's to short to dwell on Policy mistakes(or otherwise) from 30-odd years ago.
Move on.
Remember by all means, it happened and for some it made life hard - But time to move on.


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Remember by all means, it happened and for some it made life hard - But time to move on.
		
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Some people will find it hard to move on, particularly those who's families had it hard when her government stopped their pay packets by closing mines and factories.

People who never experienced this will find it sad people won't move on, those who suffered might forgive but they will never forget.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Where would they get the money from?
All sold off for a fraction of what they were worth, just not viable. 
As for Council house sales, great for the few that got a house cheap, but not for the councils that built them and could not use the proceeds to build more. 

What do we have now, a massive shortage of affordable housing!
		
Click to expand...

As the Exec Editor of the i newspaper noted today.  His parents bought their council house off Crydon Council under 'right to buy'.  This was great for his family.  And then three years later Croydon council in desperation for housing bought the house back off his parents at a massive loss to the council and great profit for his parents - and who were now gratefully (to the Tories) on the housing ladder.  He still is somewhat uncomfortable with the rights or wrongs of that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2013)

Imurg said:



			I find it quite a sad state of affairs that this "debate" is only being held because an Old Lady has died and that so many have held such a grudge for so long. 
If she hadn't would this have started?

She did good, she did bad - mirroring every PM before and since.
Not everyone liked her, not everyone hated her.
But she stood up for what she believed was right - isn't that what everyone who hated her is doing? Scargill, Hatton and all the rest?
Everyone on here being glad she's gone - stating what they believe to be right?
She just had a different point of view.

Life's to short to dwell on Policy mistakes(or otherwise) from 30-odd years ago.
Move on.
Remember by all means, it happened and for some it made life hard - But time to move on.
		
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+1 well said


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2013)

In the early years she had many working class supporters.
Her policies were very one sided and she soon lost those votes.

Funny how as the years roll on folk forget that nearly all of the money raised from local council house sales went to the government.
The sales of council houses was a weapon for the Tories to fund and break the loony lefts rule of London, you could say the same about the poll tax.
It was not appropriate for the rest of the UK.


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## JustOne (Apr 9, 2013)

Brilliant that people who have the time, money and the LUXURY to hit a ball around a field in their spare time can post as if all hasn't worked out quite well for them... oh the irony!

Without Maggie we'd all be down a mine


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Brilliant that people who have the time, money and the LUXURY to hit a ball around a field in their spare time can post as if all hasn't worked out quite well for them... oh the irony!

*Without Maggie we'd all be down a mine* 

Click to expand...

Making a fortune


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## JustOne (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Making a fortune 

Click to expand...

So we can hit a ball round a field in our spare time..... oh, hang on....


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## Phil2511 (Apr 9, 2013)

She can't have been all that bad and her ideas must have been liked by the many. 

She did get re elected twice, so had 3 stints as PM. Voted in democratically by the people of the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2013)

I was hitting a ball round a field when Sir Anthony Eden was prime minister so that one does not apply to me!


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## JustOne (Apr 9, 2013)

Phil2511 said:



			She can't have been all that bad and her ideas must have been liked by the many. 

She did get re elected twice, so had 3 stints as PM. Voted in democratically by the people of the UK.
		
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Obviously not every decision is going to please every single person but we're all sitting here now at *OUR COMPUTERS*, probably with the *HEATING ON* wishing we could be on the *GOLF COURSE* instead.... it worked out so badly for us lot didn't it :mmm:


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## deepblue12 (Apr 9, 2013)

Greatest politician this country ever had.....

RIP Maggie!!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2013)

From a shopkeepers Daughter in Grantham to the first Woman Prime Minister. A National leader with a strength of determination and purpose similar to Churchill, someone who leaves modern day politicians in her shadow.

No one who has to introduce the type of change she faced that was needed to drag Britain out of it's image as 'the sick man of Europe' was going to be popular.   Thats how we were seen around the world as 'the sick man'

When I was young and driven more by hormones and a lack of worldly experience I didnt like her or the things se was doing but later I came to understand that you cant please all of the people and that what she achieved created a better place for most people.


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## Phil2511 (Apr 9, 2013)

MikeH said:



			Few people wont have an opinion about Margaret Thatcher (be it good or bad) and debate and discussion are welcomed but I'm going to get in early and ask that folk just exercise a bit of thought when they post here on this thread
		
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Just to reiterate Mikes post for everyone that may have missed it.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 9, 2013)

Phil2511 said:



			Just to reiterate Mikes post for everyone that may have missed it.
		
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I take it some posts have been removed then and quite rightly so


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 9, 2013)

Phil2511 said:



			She can't have been all that bad and her ideas must have been liked by the many. 

She did get re elected twice, so had 3 stints as PM. Voted in democratically by the people of the UK.
		
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There's an element of truth in that although for much of her time the Labour party was self-destructing; the SDP splitting out from it, fairly inept leadership of Michael Foot etc. I think I even voted SNP at the time.... which shows how bad things must have got!


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## Shaunmg (Apr 9, 2013)

HotDogAssassin said:



			You put forward a very reasoned and intelligent statement, but REALLY let yourself down with your final comment.  

Click to expand...

Thats just your opinion, perhaps you would like to clarify. Are saying she didn't give the final order to sink the Belgrano? as it steamed away from the exclusion zone? Is my memory that blared?


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## Slime (Apr 9, 2013)

Phil2511 said:



			Just to reiterate Mikes post for everyone that may have missed it.
		
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Thanks *Phil2511*, I was so shocked that I nearly shot back a reply that would have got me banned!

*Slime*.


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## One Planer (Apr 9, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			Thats just your opinion, perhaps you would like to clarify. Are saying she didn't give the final order to sink the Belgrano? as it steamed away from the exclusion zone? Is my memory that blared?
		
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-WAS-right-sink-ship-attacked-Task-Force.html


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2013)

Yes that was indeed an easy decision on who to vote for.
Michael Foot or Margaret Thatcher.

If's and But's.
David Owen, Shirley Williams, Anthony Wedgewood Benn and Michael Hesaltine. All very able politicians.
Wedgie Benn was too far left for me but he was a brilliant minister.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			Thats just your opinion, perhaps you would like to clarify. Are saying she didn't give the final order to sink the Belgrano? as it steamed away from the exclusion zone? Is my memory that blared?
		
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The exclusion zone is an irrelevant line on a chart.  The PM was advised by her military advisers that the Belgrano, escorted by destroyers (and an aircraft carrier not too far away) were a substantial threat to the task force.  The rules of engagement were changed prior to the Belgrano being hit in order to protect the task force.  We were at war by the way.


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## chrisd (Apr 9, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			There's an element of truth in that although for much of her time the Labour party was self-destructing; the SDP splitting out from it, fairly inept leadership of Michael Foot etc. I think I even voted SNP at the time.... which shows how bad things must have got!
		
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Isn't that just confirming what we've said, she saved us from the mire that those you mention, plus the union communists, were dragging us into? She won also because the majority of voters elected her. 

The outdated and highly unionised car plants would have closed anyway as they were making cars that no one wanted when the Japanese  and Germans etc started bringing in vastly superior cars that looked good, drove better and had, at least, a modicum of reliability - look at the Austin Allegro and Maxi, they didnt even have a heated rear window that you could keep your hands warm whilst pushing them in the winter!


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

Phil2511 said:



			She can't have been all that bad and her ideas must have been liked by the many. 

She did get re elected twice, so had 3 stints as PM. Voted in democratically by the people in the south of the UK.
		
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Fixed that for you


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

When the British car industry was killed by its workers own unions there were tears






of joy, from people who like cars


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## HotDogAssassin (Apr 9, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			Thats just your opinion, perhaps you would like to clarify. Are saying she didn't give the final order to sink the Belgrano? as it steamed away from the exclusion zone? Is my memory that blared?
		
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"Don't mention the war"
"They started it"
"No we didn't"
"Yes you did, you invaded the Falklands"

But to answer your questions:

Perhaps you would like to clarify.

Not really, no.

Are saying she didn't give the final order to sink the Belgrano? 

Not sure where you read that in my comment, perhaps you would like to clarify.

as it steamed away from the exclusion zone?

A warship in service with a country that was at war with ours, which was likely to return and had the potential to inflict death upon our own forces.


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## USER1999 (Apr 9, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			Thats just your opinion, perhaps you would like to clarify. Are saying she didn't give the final order to sink the Belgrano? as it steamed away from the exclusion zone? Is my memory that blared?
		
Click to expand...

Although there were upwards of 1000 people on the belgrano, only (can I use that word?) 320 odd died.

The captain of said ship admitted afterwards that it was a legit target, and that his orders were to engage the enemy where ever he found them. Wikipedia it if you like.

Oh, and we were never at war. It was a conflict.


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## chris661 (Apr 9, 2013)

Slime said:



			Thanks *Phil2511*, I was so shocked that I nearly shot back a reply that would have got me banned!

*Slime*.
		
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Why didnt  you just use the report post function?


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 9, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Isn't that just confirming what we've said, she saved us from the mire that those you mention, plus the union communists, were dragging us into? She won also because the majority of voters elected her. 

The outdated and highly unionised car plants would have closed anyway as they were making cars that no one wanted when the Japanese  and Germans etc started bringing in vastly superior cars that looked good, drove better and had, at least, a modicum of reliability - look at the Austin Allegro and Maxi, they didnt even have a heated rear window that you could keep your hands warm whilst pushing them in the winter!
		
Click to expand...

I don't think she "saved" us from anything. It could be argued the medicine was worse than the disease? 

I don't have the answers - we know what happened and where it has led us and there's a debate as to whether we're in a better or worse place. No need to rebutt that - there is a debate regardless of how entrenched each side is in their own opinion.

What I wonder is that just maybe she could have attacked the problems of the era with a bit more empathy and understanding and consideration for "ordinary" people and arrived at a different solution. If she had, maybe, just maybe we'd now have (for example) a car manufacturing industry competing with the Germans and the Japanese. But she didn't try to improve British industry - she gave up on it and threw it to the wolves to promote her own ideology. And now our main industries are miss selling financial "instruments".... and burgers and coffee.

Of course, maybe it wouldn't have worked either, we'll never know.


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## Slime (Apr 9, 2013)

chris661 said:



			Why didnt  you just use the report post function?
		
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Doh! Wasn't thinking clearly. Was a tad angry!

*Slime*.


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## Wildrover (Apr 9, 2013)

In reply to the earlier posts saying that we must have done allright if we can afford to hit a ball around a field in our spare time, that is Thatcherism in it's purest form, I'm doing ok so I don't give a monkey's about anyone else.
I don't deny that I've done ok over the years but I'm one of the lucky ones, many in deprived areas around the UK didn't get the breaks I did and were thrown out with the rubbish by Thatcher.

Someone on the radio said earlier that it was perhaps perfect irony that the inventor of "I'm allright Jack" Thatcherism died alone in a hotel room.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think she "saved" us from anything. It could be argued the medicine was worse than the disease? 

I don't have the answers - we know what happened and where it has led us and there's a debate as to whether we're in a better or worse place. No need to rebutt that - there is a debate regardless of how entrenched each side is in their own opinion.

What I wonder is that just maybe she could have attacked the problems of the era with a bit more empathy and understanding and consideration for "ordinary" people and arrived at a different solution. If she had, maybe, just maybe we'd now have (for example) a car manufacturing industry competing with the Germans and the Japanese. But she didn't try to improve British industry - she gave up on it and threw it to the wolves to promote her own ideology. And now our main industries are miss selling financial "instruments".... and burgers and coffee.

Of course, maybe it wouldn't have worked either, we'll never know.
		
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It's not the governments job to build cars.   Surely its Engineers jobs to create the quality products that people need.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2013)

Sinking the Belgrano was a tough call but it kept the Argie ships in port and saved many British lives.


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## chrisd (Apr 9, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think she "saved" us from anything. It could be argued the medicine was worse than the disease? 

I don't have the answers - we know what happened and where it has led us and there's a debate as to whether we're in a better or worse place. No need to rebutt that - there is a debate regardless of how entrenched each side is in their own opinion.

What I wonder is that just maybe she could have attacked the problems of the era with a bit more empathy and understanding and consideration for "ordinary" people and arrived at a different solution. If she had, maybe, just maybe we'd now have (for example) a car manufacturing industry competing with the Germans and the Japanese. But she didn't try to improve British industry - she gave up on it and threw it to the wolves to promote her own ideology. And now our main industries are miss selling financial "instruments".... and burgers and coffee.

Of course, maybe it wouldn't have worked either, we'll never know.
		
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She didn't  have much in the way of empathy, she was of course the Iron Lady and was rarely deflected from her plans. Good or bad she did what she thought was right. The car industry and mining were beset with problems that were largely the fault of the trade union leaders and I dont think any amount of help was going to change it.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 9, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not the governments job to build cars.   Surely its Engineers jobs to create the quality products that people need.
		
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OK, I don't know but I don't for even a minute imagine the German and Japanese car industries haven't benefited from their governments' policies.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 9, 2013)

chrisd said:



			The car industry and mining were beset with problems that were largely the fault of the trade union leaders and I dont think any amount of help was going to change it.
		
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Maybe. Maybe not.

We'll never know because Mrs Thatcher threw the baby out with the bathwater.


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## mikee247 (Apr 9, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sinking the Belgrano was a tough call but it kept the Argie ships in port and saved many British lives.
		
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Spot on!:thup: You dont mess around with things like that slight hesitation can causes many lives being lost. My Uncle was on board of the Subs as a CPO (Conquer if I remember correctly) when the order was given to drop it and let there be no doubt they didnt hesitate to do so as they and the supporting fleet with it posed a serious threat to the task force.  Job done.  War is war and conflict alike you do what you need to do to protect your colleagues and if that means making a controversial decision so be it. No rules of engagement were broken in my eyes the fact that it was even in the water sailing about flexing its muscles suggested it meant business. Im sorry for any loss of life in any conflict and Ive seen plenty over the years in the mob...... However Im sure the Argentinian pilots flying mirages and firing Exocet missiles also felt the same when they sunk Sheffield and St Gallahad. 

If they invaded again Im not sure David has the balls for it as Maggie did and Im also not sure we have the resources and carriers etc to deal with it due to massive cuts and over commitment but thats another story....


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## Neddy (Apr 9, 2013)

Decent quote from Tony Blair today - "when you decide you divide". And it's absolutely true. She took tough decision based on what she believed in....something i think is lacking in modern day politics. 

Now the 3 main parties really do look and sound the same. Back then at least people had a genuine choice and clearly enough people agreed with her to elect her 3 times.

I have seen her compared to Stalin and Hitler by some extreme lefties in the last couple of days which is beyond ridiculous. This is a democracy not a dictatorship. The people gave her the power to do the things she did.


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## CMAC (Apr 9, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Maybe. Maybe not.

We'll never know because Mrs Thatcher threw the baby out with the bathwater.
		
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I believe most were losing vast amounts of money and they certainly were not competitive, BS were losing over a Â£1million per day in the 80's. Any business with this model is not sustainable. If Mrs Thatcher hadn't closed these industries do you feel we would have a thriving mining/steel/car industry now?
Thatcher bailed out BS three times before enough was enough.


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## Imurg (Apr 9, 2013)

Neddy said:



			enough people agreed with her to elect her 3 times.
		
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Just being a bit pedantic but she wasn't elected PM at all. The only people who elected Maggie to be an MP were the constituents of Grantham.
She became PM because she was Leader of the winning Party....elected by the Party.

I know many people vote "for the Leader/Party" rather than the Candidate on the ballot paper but that's not the way it should be


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 9, 2013)

DarthVega said:



			I believe most were losing vast amounts of money and they certainly were not competitive, BS were losing over a Â£1million per day in the 80's. Any business with this model is not sustainable. If Mrs Thatcher hadn't closed these industries do you feel we would have a thriving mining/steel/car industry now?
Thatcher bailed out BS three times before enough was enough.
		
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Was there a way to make them competitive short of giving up and closing them down?

Maybe! 

It's my word for today.

Glad to hear she tried to help BS. But she failed..... maybe that's her legacy... not so much that she destroyed British industry but that she failed to save it?


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Was there a way to make them competitive short of giving up and closing them down?

Maybe! 

It's my word for today.

Glad to hear she tried to help BS. But she failed..... maybe that's her legacy... not so much that she destroyed British industry but that she failed to save it?
		
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There's only a certain amount of times you can save a wounded animal, there comes a time when you have to put it down.


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## G1BB0 (Apr 9, 2013)

I will say this about Baroness Thatcher, she obviously made her mark as a PM hence all these posts, I doubt we would have the same for any since except maybe Blair.

yes the gorvernment made mistakes and some of them monumental but they were changing times. I fear more for our country now under the current regime!

RIP Mrs T


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## Phil2511 (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			There's only a certain amount of times you can save a wounded animal, there comes a time when you have to put it down.
		
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And she was the unfortunate person(Scapegoat) that had to give the lethal injection. Things were ruined before her time. 

When she took power the IMF wouldn't give any more to the UK. Its been well stated all around the forums I frequent that without her we'd have been in a worse position than Greece.


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## LIG (Apr 9, 2013)

This thread reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T17VzztS60M


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## Phil2511 (Apr 9, 2013)

LIG said:



			This thread reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T17VzztS60M

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Try this


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2013)

Neddy said:



			Decent quote from Tony Blair today - "when you decide you divide". And it's absolutely true. She took tough decision based on what she believed in....something i think is lacking in modern day politics. 

Now the 3 main parties really do look and sound the same. Back then at least people had a genuine choice and clearly enough people agreed with her to elect her 3 times.

I have seen her compared to Stalin and Hitler by some extreme lefties in the last couple of days which is beyond ridiculous. This is a democracy not a dictatorship. The people gave her the power to do the things she did.
		
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Good post


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 9, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Just being a bit pedantic but she wasn't elected PM at all. The only people who elected Maggie to be an MP were the constituents of Grantham.
She became PM because she was Leader of the winning Party....elected by the Party.

I know many people vote "for the Leader/Party" rather than the Candidate on the ballot paper but that's not the way it should be
		
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Just being more pedantic , she was born in Grantham , she was actually MP for Finchley in North London

Happy to point you in the right direction


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## LIG (Apr 9, 2013)

Phil2511 said:



			Try this
		
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Thanks Phil!  
Don't know why the linky thing didn't work. Won't bother trying to HL next time.


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## Imurg (Apr 9, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just being more pedantic , she was born in Grantham , she was actually MP for Finchley in North London

Happy to point you in the right direction 

Click to expand...

Same meat - different gravy

Principle's the same.

And thanks.................:ears:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2013)

Hoping for respectful behaviour from all at her funeral - but I'm not holding my breath.  I hold no truck whatsoever with any who disrespect the deceased.


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2013)

The British car industry, along with the coal, steel and shipping industries were the laughing stock of the world during the 60's & 70's. It was only when Thatcher came into power that things started turning around. And for the good. 
Would Nissan, Honda, Toyota have invested money into our economy during the 70's or early 80's???
The ones that have gone bought it on themselves by lack of investment, lack of leadership and too many fat cat bosses/union leaders having it there own way.
Good bloody riddance (not to Mrs T by the way)


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2013)

Does anyone actually believe a government and prime Minister could run this country in a manner that everyone would be happy with their policies.

One thing we can still be proud of is that everyone has the right to get out there and work to change things they dont like, or by their determination make a difference.  There are so many that bleat and rant at what others do but are too weak to do anything constructive themselves.   They were once described by the Chinese as 'Paper Tigers'


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			The British car industry, along with the coal, steel and shipping industries were the laughing stock of the world during the 60's & 70's. It was only when Thatcher came into power that things started turning around. And for the good. 
Would Nissan, Honda, Toyota have invested money into our economy during the 70's or early 80's???
The ones that have gone bought it on themselves by lack of investment, lack of leadership and too many fat cat bosses/union leaders having it there own way.
Good bloody riddance (not to Mrs T by the way)
		
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BL car production peaked in 1972 and was in decline thereafter. Who was in power in 1972? I don't think it was Labour. 

The bailout that saved it was in 1975. Who was in power then? Labour. 

Thatcher wanted to kill it off even sooner than its eventual death. 

Thatcher turned it upside down, not around, and sold off most of the decent stuff for a song, with profits going to Germany, France, Japan or the US thereafter. Most of the British makes bought it due to poor outdated design and poor manufacturing quality.


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Most of the British makes bought it due to poor outdated design and poor manufacturing quality.
		
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How many millions of man hours were lost at British Leyland due to strikes???


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			How many millions of man hours were lost at British Leyland due to strikes???
		
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I dunno. How many?


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I dunno. How many?
		
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Haven't a clue either. But it was lots


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			BL car production peaked in 1972 and was in decline thereafter. Who was in power in 1972? I don't think it was Labour. 

Thatcher turned it upside down, not around, and sold off most of the decent stuff for a song, with profits going to Germany, France, Japan or the US thereafter. Most of the British makes bought it due to poor outdated design and poor manufacturing quality.
		
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Do you think it's the Governments job to design cars?     Can you explain exactly what decent stuff Mrs Thatcher sold off for a song with the profits going to Germany, France, Japan or the US please?    Exactly who's fault was the outdated design and poor manufacturing quality?  

I worked during this period for British Aerospace and we designed iconic products like Concorde and many others.   Why did she not ruin this then?


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2013)

The truth of the matter is that during the 70's this country was the pits. We were a laughing stock all over the world.
Would you have bought British made goods???? Not a bloody chance.
Maggie Thatcher came along and was determined to sort it out. To clear out the dead wood. 
As far as I'm concerned, she did an alright job.


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## Kellfire (Apr 9, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			As far as I'm concerned, she did an alright job.
		
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Yip, by setting us on a path that saw us buying everything from abroad...


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think it's the Governments job to design cars?     Can you explain exactly what decent stuff Mrs Thatcher sold off for a song with the profits going to Germany, France, Japan or the US please?    Exactly who's fault was the outdated design and poor manufacturing quality?  

I worked during this period for British Aerospace and we designed iconic products like Concorde and many others.   Why did she not ruin this then?
		
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The point is that the British car industry was dying from the early 70s because it was rubbish, Labour effectively nationalised it in 1975 to try and keep it alive, Thatch did nothing to save it and actually wanted to allow it to die sooner than it did. 

Thatcher was an ideologue who wanted to privatise everything, and keep inflation down at all costs, even at the cost of massive unemployment. This policy worked so well that things crashed in 1987 on Black Tuesday. By then most sensible economists knew that monetarism was not an effective policy. But Thatch did not listen to any opinions she didn't like the sound of, so she ploughed on until she was stabbed in the back by her own party. 

She also started the process of deregulation in the City that contributed to the collapse in the world economy in 2008, and she started the process which is now reaching its zenith with the privatisation of the NHS. 

She left a legacy all right, but it is one of relentless destruction.


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## patricks148 (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			The point is that the British car industry was dying from the early 70s because it was rubbish, Labour effectively nationalised it in 1975 to try and keep it alive, Thatch did nothing to save it and actually wanted to allow it to die sooner than it did. 

Thatcher was an ideologue who wanted to privatise everything, and keep inflation down at all costs, even at the cost of massive unemployment. This policy worked so well that things crashed in 1987 on Black Tuesday. By then most sensible economists knew that monetarism was not an effective policy. But Thatch did not listen to any opinions she didn't like the sound of, so she ploughed on until she was stabbed in the back by her own party. 

She also started the process of deregulation in the City that contributed to the collapse in the world economy in 2008, and she started the process which is now reaching its zenith with the privatisation of the NHS. 

She left a legacy all right, but it is one of relentless destruction.
		
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well put Ethan.

And to you folk bleating about the Unions...

I bet you still like your; paid holiday, sick pay and working rights.

none of which you would have without Trade Unions, depite what you read in the Sun and Daily Mail etc.


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## Smiffy (Apr 9, 2013)

Just watched a group of youngsters dancing around on the telly celebrating her passing.
They weren't even born when she was in power
Sums it up really.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			The point is that the British car industry was dying from the early 70s because it was rubbish, Labour effectively nationalised it in 1975 to try and keep it alive, Thatch did nothing to save it and actually wanted to allow it to die sooner than it did. 

Thatcher was an ideologue who wanted to privatise everything, and keep inflation down at all costs, even at the cost of massive unemployment. This policy worked so well that things crashed in 1987 on Black Tuesday. By then most sensible economists knew that monetarism was not an effective policy. But Thatch did not listen to any opinions she didn't like the sound of, so she ploughed on until she was stabbed in the back by her own party. 

She also started the process of deregulation in the City that contributed to the collapse in the world economy in 2008, and she started the process which is now reaching its zenith with the privatisation of the NHS. 

She left a legacy all right, but it is one of relentless destruction.
		
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So when the world economy collapsed in 2008 it was down to Maggie?  18 years after she left office no one saw fault in what was happening and sought to try some form of remedial action?  Really remarkable that you can hold someone to account for an event like that nearly two decades after she left office.


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## Kellfire (Apr 9, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			So when the world economy collapsed in 2008 it was down to Maggie?  18 years after she left office no one saw fault in what was happening and sought to try some form of remedial action?  Really remarkable that you can hold someone to account for an event like that nearly two decades after she left office.
		
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Without deregulation we would have had a shield against the economic downturn...

By the way, the world's economy didn't collapse, some countries are thriving.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Without deregulation we would have had a shield against the economic downturn...

By the way, the world's economy didn't collapse, some countries are thriving.
		
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So humour me here because I'm really thick; in the 18 years since she left power, non of the experts (each with a brain the size of Belgium) thought 'we could really be in the crap here - what we need is a degree of regulation, whether people like it or not'?

Point 2 - I'm aware of that mate, I was using someone else's words.


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## Dodger (Apr 9, 2013)

I bet she was willing our independance.

I recall she stopped milk in schools and I also remember a wee ditty that used to sung by the kids about this.... "Thatcher Thatcher the Milk Snatcher" or something like that.

Ironic it's Celtic v Dundee Utd this weekend.

Not sure if it is a web rumour but talk of a minutes applause at Fitbaw games over the weekend......cue a minutes silence up here then.

Ahh the memories.:smirk:


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## Kellfire (Apr 9, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			So humour me here because I'm really thick; in the 18 years since she left power, non of the experts (each with a brain the size of Belgium) thought 'we could really be in the crap here - what we need is a degree of regulation, whether people like it or not'?
		
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Thatcher's methods worked in the short term and the government were happy to ride the crest of that wave, even Labour... look at what Brown did with the gold reserves!


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Thatcher's methods worked in the short term and the government were happy to ride the crest of that wave, even Labour... look at what Brown did with the gold reserves!
		
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I actually feel a bit sorry for Brown (only a little bit), clearly not fit for purpose but so desperate to be PM that he grasped the baton while Blair legged it.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I wonder how many people posting actually lived in the era before her election and knew just how appalling the state of the country was and, tough as it was, she almost single handidly turned things round. Unpopular she was, and still is, in mining and car making areas but the pits and factories were being paid for by the tax payer and losing money as if it were going out of fashion. The unions were holding everyone to ransom and, frankly, something had to be done - they would have all gone bust anyway.

The poll tax was her disaster but I remember when it was first mooted and basically it was a sound idea - anyone working in a household paid their portion of tax. I think the problem was that for the moderate amongst us, the actual figure for each of us was set too high. As a pair living together with no kids at that time, my rates went up and not down as I was led to believe it would under the new system!

If you lived through the era, then you are more likely to mourn her passing and regret that the current crop of politicians are pale by her standards.
		
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A quality post!  Well said, Chris!

With regards the miners' strike, the first miners strike was a success because Joe Gormley had the nation behind him.  They were underpaid and their conditions were poor and he fought and won better pay and better conditions.  Arthur Scargill then decided that he wanted some of that so decided to take the miners out again.  He failed and quite rightly so.  

You might want to ask Scargill what he did with all the money sent over by the Russian miners!  In solidarity they had whip rounds and sent a load of money over for the British miners.  When the Russian miners went on strike Scargill refused to send any money.  What a lovely bloke!

From Wiki:Scargill led the union in the 1984â€“1985 miners' strike. Scargill claimed that the government had a long-term strategy to destroy the industry by closing unprofitable pits, and that it listed pits it wanted to close each year. This was denied by the government.
Miners were split between those who supported the strike and those who opposed it (see Union of Democratic Mineworkers). Scargill never balloted NUM members for a strike; this was seen as an erosion of democracy within the union, but the role of ballots in decision-making had been made very unclear after previous leader, Joe Gormley, had ignored two ballots over wage reforms, and his decisions had been upheld after appeals to court were made.[6] Moreover, the strike began when miners walked out in Yorkshire rather than when Scargill called for action.
The media characterised the strike as "Scargill's strike" and most people believed that he had been looking for an excuse for industrial action since becoming union president. Many people, including the then Labour leader Neil Kinnock, believed Scargill had made a huge mistake in calling the strike in the summer rather than in the winter.
In 2007 the Daily Mail published an article based on declassified Soviet documents where Scargill personally contacted Moscow to secure sufficient funds, that were to be transferred through Warsaw[7].
Scargill, along with Labour MP Tony Benn, was actively involved in the campaign to free Russel Shankland and Dean Hancock from prison. The pair had been convicted of the murder of David Wilkie, a taxi driver, by throwing a block of concrete from a bridge onto his car. [8] The first round of their victory was achieved in October 1985, when their life sentences for murder were reduced to eight years for manslaughter on appeal. They were released from prison in November 1989.

Later years

After the miners' strike, he was elected to lifetime presidency of the NUM by an overwhelming national majority, in a controversial election where some of the other candidates claimed that they were given very little time to prepare.
He stepped down from leadership of the NUM at the end of July 2002, to become the honorary president. He was succeeded by Ian Lavery.

Legal disputes

On 25 August 2010, it was reported that Scargill had been told that he no longer qualified for full membership of the NUM.
In February 2012, Scargill won Â£13,000 in a court action against the NUM, primarily for car expenses, and for the earlier temporary denial of membership. Scargill admitted there was 'bad blood' between him and the NUM General Secretary Chris Kitchen, who said, "I honestly do believe that Arthur, in his own world, believes that the NUM is here to afford him the lifestyle that he's become accustomed to."
However, in December 2012, Scargill lost a similar case concerning rent on his flat in the Barbican, London. For years the NUM had been paying Â£34,000 annual rent for the flat on Scargill's instructions, without the knowledge of NUM members or many senior officials; Scargill claimed the NUM should continue funding his flat for the rest of his life, and thereafter for any widow that survived him. Chris Kitchen said: "I would say it's time to walk away, Mr Scargill. You've been found out. The NUM is not your personal bank account and never will be again."

Sounds like a lovely bloke!

You want someone to blame for the miners' strike - Arthur Scargill's your man!

As for Hillsborough - she was no more part of a cover up than I was!  What interest did she have in covering up such a tragedy?  It was the Police - pure and simple.

Maggie was brilliant for the UK - end of.  From the Falklands to the storming of the Iranian embassy she was behind our armed forces 100%.  Not something that can be said of today's spineless politicians!  

Also, if she was that bad, surely in the 13 years that Labour were in power they'd have righted all of her wrongs and sorted the UK out, wouldn't they?  

Oh no, that's right, it's because of the left and so called socialism that we're now in this horrendous state!

RIP Maggie - a true British citizen.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I recall she stopped milk in schools and I also remember a wee ditty that used to sung by the kids about this.... "Thatcher Thatcher the Milk Snatcher" or something like that.

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She wasn't PM in 71 when it stopped for the 8+ kids, minister for education I think.  It was a post war measure to provide nutrition given that rationing in varying degrees went on for quite some time (according to my mum) by the 70s it probably wasn't necessary.  I remember it stopping but a few kids in the class still got it if they had a real need.


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			So when the world economy collapsed in 2008 it was down to Maggie?  18 years after she left office no one saw fault in what was happening and sought to try some form of remedial action?  Really remarkable that you can hold someone to account for an event like that nearly two decades after she left office.
		
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Of course it wasn't all her fault but a few that followed, including Blair, bought the ideology, much like many US politicians bought the Reaganomics story. 

My point is that the legend of Thatcher is that she saved the economy in the UK, but a careful examination suggests the opposite may be true. My main objection to her is actually the way she delayed peace in NI but that is another story.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Of course it wasn't all her fault but a few that followed, including Blair, bought the ideology, much like many US politicians bought the Reaganomics story. 

My point is that the legend of Thatcher is that she saved the economy in the UK, but a careful examination suggests the opposite may be true. My main objection to her is actually the way she delayed peace in NI but that is another story.
		
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funny old world, that's where my utter hatred of John Major comes from


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			My main objection to her is actually the way she delayed peace in NI but that is another story.
		
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Now that I would like to hear, with 4 tours under my belt in some of the worst times in the late 70's and early 80's in sometimes deep C.O.P, I like to know how or why she delayed peace?

Next you'll be telling me that Adams and McGuinness don't have blood on their hands and should be listened to and trusted!


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			Now that I would like to hear, with 4 tours under my belt in some of the worst times in the late 70's and early 80's in sometimes deep C.O.P, I like to know how or why she delayed peace?

Next you'll be telling me that Adams and McGuinness don't have blood on their hands and should be listened to and trusted!
		
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She delayed peace as she wouldn't negotiate with terrorists. Bottom line really.


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			She delayed peace as she wouldn't negotiate with terrorists. Bottom line really.
		
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"we should never concede more to those who threaten us with a gun than we would to those who promote their views through the ballot box".


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			She delayed peace as she wouldn't negotiate with terrorists. Bottom line really.
		
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They allowed Adams to provide a quote yesterday.  He tried to kill her.  In fact, him and his mates killed innocent women and children - Manchester, London - the geography was immaterial, their message was clear.  

You couldn't make it up!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2013)

As for Hillsborough - she was no more part of a cover up than I was! What interest did she have in covering up such a tragedy? It was the Police - pure and simple. (Quote)

Absolute tosh - it was on her watch, she was hardly likely to turn on her "stormtroopers" was she. An establishment cover up right from the very top. That's why its taking 23 to sort out a bit of justice.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			"we should never concede more to those who threaten us with a gun than we would to those who promote their views through the ballot box".
		
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gets my vote


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			Now that I would like to hear, with 4 tours under my belt in some of the worst times in the late 70's and early 80's in sometimes deep C.O.P, I like to know how or why she delayed peace?

Next you'll be telling me that Adams and McGuinness don't have blood on their hands and should be listened to and trusted!
		
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Don't be silly. I have never been a fan of Adams and McGuinness but things have changed a lot. Pity it hadn't happened a lot sooner.

In the late 70s, many ordinary Catholics were rather ambivalent about the IRA and their campaign, which was being conducted by a small group but was in political terms pretty weakly supported. You may recall that the British Army was sent in to protect the Catholics in Belfast, and were welcomed at first. Then the local politicians pushed for internment, and used the Army against the Catholics, which turned Catholic opinion. But a lot of animosity that had burned out by the end of the 70s. 

Then the strategy of Ulsterisation began, which was intended to give more control to the RUC and UDR and isolate the problem as a NI one, to try and insulate the 'mainland' as much as possible. But many of the UDR and RUC guys were hand in glove with the loyalists and harassed Catholics far more than the English soldiers ever had, including collaborating on killings of Catholics, both IRA men and innocents. The hunger strikes also increased tensions and turned a lot of Catholics more against the Govt. The first election I ever voted in was when Bobby Sands stood, and I lived in the Fermanagh-South Tyrone constituency. Thatcher increased the tension and drove division far more than was necessary, and recruited many young Catholics for the IRA. She had learned nothing from internment and repeated the mistake. 

By the way, most ordinary Catholics saw a big difference between English soldiers on one hand, and local UDR and/or Scottish (many of whom has a sectarian streak) on the other. I remember pulling my car up at checkpoints and thinking 'Oh no, its the Scots/UDR'. More harassment and abuse was likely then.

I have no idea what deep C.O.P is? Could you explain?


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

I've arrested Adams in the Dunville Park and been on early lifts for him and his side kick. So much blood on their hands as high ranking PIRA officers, pity INLA didn't get to them and do us all a favour when they were infighting. I remember the bombs here in Coventry and Birmingham and saw some horrific things over their which had come from the instructions of Adams on his own people.

Maggie was right not to deal with terrorists.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



As for Hillsborough - she was no more part of a cover up than I was! What interest did she have in covering up such a tragedy? It was the Police - pure and simple. (Quote)

Absolute tosh - it was on her watch, she was hardly likely to turn on her "stormtroopers" was she. An establishment cover up right from the very top. That's why its taking 23 to sort out a bit of justice.






Click to expand...

I don't think so.

She wasn't responsible for everything that happened in the country.  Her advisors would have kept certain things from her.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			The first election I ever voted in was when Bobby Sands stood, and I lived in the Fermanagh-South Tyrone constituency. Thatcher increased the tension and drove division far more than was necessary, and recruited many young Catholics for the IRA.
		
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Would you care to explain how a government not giving in to a convicted (on more than one occasion) terrorist is at fault?  Are you saying that any nation should give in to the terrorists rather than increase tension?


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Don't be silly. I have never been a fan of Adams and McGuinness but things have changed a lot. Pity it hadn't happened a lot sooner.

In the late 70s, many ordinary Catholics were rather ambivalent about the IRA and their campaign, which was being conducted by a small group but was in political terms pretty weakly supported. You may recall that the British Army was sent in to protect the Catholics in Belfast, and were welcomed at first. Then the local politicians pushed for internment, and used the Army against the Catholics, which turned Catholic opinion. But a lot of animosity that had burned out by the end of the 70s. 

Then the strategy of Ulsterisation began, which was intended to give more control to the RUC and UDR and isolate the problem as a NI one, to try and insulate the 'mainland' as much as possible. But many of the UDR and RUC guys were hand in glove with the loyalists and harassed Catholics far more than the English soldiers ever had, including collaborating on killings of Catholics, both IRA men and innocents. The hunger strikes also increased tensions and turned a lot of Catholics more against the Govt. The first election I ever voted in was when Bobby Sands stood, and I lived in the Fermanagh-South Tyrone constituency. Thatcher increased the tension and drove division far more than was necessary, and recruited many young Catholics for the IRA. She had learned nothing from internment and repeated the mistake. 

By the way, most ordinary Catholics saw a big difference between English soldiers on one hand, and local UDR and/or Scottish (many of whom has a sectarian streak) on the other. I remember pulling my car up at checkpoints and thinking 'Oh no, its the Scots/UDR'. More harassment and abuse was likely then.

I have no idea what deep C.O.P is? Could you explain?
		
Click to expand...

I was serving when the hunger strikes were in full and I was in the Clonard and lower falls when the news came through that Sands had died. I had 2 empty seats on my plane back from that tour!

I'm sorry but PIRA was never a small group in the late 70's, their network was vast and was well supported financially from "other" countries, Noraid being a leading figure. A lot of us (HM Forces) were recruited by the UDR, tempted by large pay packets, I know most Catholics I spoke to welcomed this as we had different attitudes to some policing methods. The RUC would never had stood a chance without us there, it took 16 of us to walk around and protect only 2 of them and possibly more at times with crossover bricks if there had been hostilities the night before. I never met a cocky or confident RUC man, I didn't like some UDR though.


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Would you care to explain how a government not giving in to a convicted (on more than one occasion) terrorist is at fault?  Are you saying that any nation should give in to the terrorists rather than increase tension?
		
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She increased tension by her actions early on (interment etc) even before the mention of negotiating.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			She increased tension by her actions early on (interment etc) even before the mention of negotiating.
		
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val, do some research, check when Op Demetrius/ internment took place, compare that to when Mags came to power.


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

You could never of sat at the table at that time with Adams or McGuinness, both convicted criminals and knowingly high ranking officers and in my personal opinion, shouldn't be where they are now either.

Their idea of putting pressure on peace talks was to blow up innocents on the mainland, really diplomatic that!


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## Kellfire (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			I've arrested Adams in the Dunville Park and been on early lifts for him and his side kick. So much blood on their hands as high ranking PIRA officers, pity INLA didn't get to them and do us all a favour when they were infighting. I remember the bombs here in Coventry and Birmingham and saw some horrific things over their which had come from the instructions of Adams on his own people.

Maggie was right not to deal with terrorists.
		
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You'll want to be VERY careful what you accuse Adams or anyone else of on a public forum or I don't think you'll be a member on this site for long.


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## thecraw (Apr 9, 2013)

Some true colours coming out here.


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			val, do some research, check when Op Demetrius/ internment took place, compare that to when Mags came to power.
		
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Fair point mate, just reading Ethan's post and picking pieces out. I had the wrong timeline.


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You'll want to be VERY careful what you accuse Adams or anyone else of on a public forum or I don't think you'll be a member on this site for long.
		
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Why, is that a threat? What I have stated is not an accusation but a factual report from my time as a serving soldier over their when Adams & McGuinness were in their heyday of terror.


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			Why, is that a threat? What I have stated is not an accusation but a factual report from my time as a serving soldier over their when Adams & McGuinness were in their heyday of terror.
		
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Go easy mate, I know that era may get your emotions flying given our conversation at Spalding so take it easy.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You'll want to be VERY careful what you accuse Adams or anyone else of on a public forum or I don't think you'll be a member on this site for long.
		
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I think you will find that McGuinness has publicly admitted his former IRA membership and his position of second in command of the IRA in Londonderry at the time of Bloody Sunday.

Gerry Adams has been asked to come clean on this matter many times by many people, including recently by Enda Kenny.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			I don't think so.

She wasn't responsible for everything that happened in the country.  Her advisors would have kept certain things from her.
		
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I'm not saying she was responsible.

So maggie thatcher - a fearsome individual, acolytes living in fear would not have told her all that went on at Hillsborough. You want it both ways, great leader, hands on blah,blah. She visited Sheffield and the ground as well. 

Naive?


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			I think you will find that McGuinness has publicly admitted his former IRA membership and his position of second in command of the IRA in Londonderry at the time of Bloody Sunday.

Gerry Adams has been asked to come clean on this matter many times by many people, including recently by Enda Kenny.
		
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Exactly, both have been arrested for being members of an illegal organisation and as I stated, I have picked up Adams in the Dunville where he used to gather people and stand on his soap box gathering support, which wasn't hard to find around the Lower Falls. Whether he or they were convicted, I wouldn't know as we passed them over.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I'm not saying she was responsible.

So maggie thatcher - a fearsome individual, acolytes living in fear would not have told her all that went on at Hillsborough. You want it both ways, great leader, hands on blah,blah. She visited Sheffield and the ground as well. 

Naive?
		
Click to expand...

Why involve her?  If there's to be a cover up, why involve the PM?  You'd only want a few individuals involved - surely?

Or are you just looking for as many people as possible to blame?


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

Getting my wings clipped so I'm saying no more on the matter other than, Maggie was right not to deal with terrorists or let murders out of jail only to murder again.

I'm out.


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## MikeH (Apr 9, 2013)

I appreciate this is a thread that evokes a lot of high emotion and strong opinions on both sides but just a friendly reminder to refrain from personal attacks on those with differing views to yours and posting anything in poor taste/likley to offend
thanks


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			Getting my wings clipped so I'm saying no more on the matter other than, Maggie was right not to deal with terrorists or let murders out of jail only to murder again.

I'm out.
		
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Are you joking? probably not :angry:

Fully agree with all the points you have made


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			Getting my wings clipped so I'm saying no more on the matter other than, Maggie was right not to deal with terrorists or let murders out of jail only to murder again.

I'm out.
		
Click to expand...

No need, just don't let emotions get you wound up mate.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

MikeH said:



			I appreciate this is a thread that evokes a lot of high emotion and strong opinions on both sides but just a friendly reminder to refrain from personal attacks on those with differing views to yours and posting anything in poor taste/likley to offend
thanks
		
Click to expand...

Mike, I'm just wondering whether it's worthwhile removing the 'Out of bounds' section permanently.  Perhaps keep the GM forum for golf related matter only.  

It would ensure (to a point) that politics and religion would be kept away from the GM forum.

AW

PS...I did try to PM you but I wasn't allowed.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Why involve her?  If there's to be a cover up, why involve the PM?  You'd only want a few individuals involved - surely?

Or are you just looking for as many people as possible to blame?
		
Click to expand...

Would you like to expand on that last line?


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## Val (Apr 9, 2013)

I don't think this thread has crossed the line. It's been an interesting debate.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Mike, I'm just wondering whether it's worthwhile removing the 'Out of bounds' section permanently.  Perhaps keep the GM forum for golf related matter only.  

It would ensure (to a point) that politics and religion would be kept away from the GM forum.

AW

PS...I did try to PM you but I wasn't allowed.
		
Click to expand...

Golf related only - brilliant


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2013)

Sorry, can't agree with that one; it's not the subject matter, it's the behaviour of those involved.  As was done to death after the recent issues, the problems that were dealt with started in The Lounge, not OOB.  Do you not discuss matters other than golf at your club?

Understand your point of view, but don't think it is a good move personally.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Would you like to expand on that last line?
		
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Why go after her?  It's been proved that it was a Police cover up - is that not enough?


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry, can't agree with that one; it's not the subject matter, it's the behaviour of those involved.  As was done to death after the recent issues, the problems that were dealt with started in The Lounge, not OOB.  Do you not discuss matters other than golf at your club?

Understand your point of view, but don't think it is a good move personally.
		
Click to expand...

Merely asking as Mike seems to be pseudo-moding on here.  I'm merely stating that, for a quieter life for Mike that the OOB section be shut down.

Just saying.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I don't think this thread has crossed the line. It's been an interesting debate.
		
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Fully agree; for a woman that can provoke extreme emotion it's been pretty well behaved IMO


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## MikeH (Apr 9, 2013)

I did once consider no OOB but feel If we just talked about golf it would be boring

I agree with Val this has been an interesting debate - I just ask it stays on the right side of passionate which i do accept is hard on this thread more so than most

AW - I dont accept PM's (find it hard to keep on top of as not always on the forum) but email away!


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			No need, just don't let emotions get you wound up mate.
		
Click to expand...

It's difficult and I appreciate there will be strong feelings on all sides and in most cases I will listen and take on other peoples views, but, I won't be told "to be VERY careful" though when I am contributing factual experiences. I'd like to expand on some of them but I can't, or I'd have to kill you


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			I was serving when the hunger strikes were in full and I was in the Clonard and lower falls when the news came through that Sands had died. I had 2 empty seats on my plane back from that tour!

I'm sorry but PIRA was never a small group in the late 70's, their network was vast and was well supported financially from "other" countries, Noraid being a leading figure. A lot of us (HM Forces) were recruited by the UDR, tempted by large pay packets, I know most Catholics I spoke to welcomed this as we had different attitudes to some policing methods. The RUC would never had stood a chance without us there, it took 16 of us to walk around and protect only 2 of them and possibly more at times with crossover bricks if there had been hostilities the night before. I never met a cocky or confident RUC man, I didn't like some UDR though.
		
Click to expand...

It is possible that you were given rather exaggerated information by your bosses, guided by the NI Government. 

I grew up in a Catholic estate considered by the RUC to be a hotbed of republicanism and went to a school with a load of lads from a place renowned for its provo tendencies. We had our house searched in the middle of the night by RUC/Army several times, were often harassed by UDR/RUC patrols, and I saw a few things too, but despite all that I can tell you that the support for the IRA in the early 80s was a llt thinner than you probably thought it was. They did not have a vast network, but when you polarise people, you increase their network and Thatcher did that with blunder after blunder. 

I don't know how many RUC men were cocky or confident, but more than a few were in cahoots with the UVF and UDA, and some were convicted as a result. Plenty of UDR men were also Orangemen and UDA/UVF types as well.

Internment occurred during the Heath Government and was a terrible political blunder, although really at the behest of Brian Faulkner. That kept the Troubles going into the Thatcher years.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Why go after her?  It's been proved that it was a Police cover up - is that not enough?
		
Click to expand...

Nothings been "proved" yet. That's why 23 years later, people still wont accept death certificates.

It was due to the establishment, that it has taken so long. I include the government(s) in that both labour and tory, but it was on thatchers watch, with her home secretary, her police chiefs and to think she didn't know what happened is extremely naive or blind faith.

I wont get into the vagaries of the belgrano affair, as I can see both sides TBH, but where the generals making all the decisions and involved in the fallout. No it was thatcher who was involved including giving the orders.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 9, 2013)

MikeH said:



			I did once consider no OOB but feel If we just talked about golf it would be boring

I agree with Val this has been an interesting debate - I just ask it stays on the right side of passionate which i do accept is hard on this thread more so than most

AW - I dont accept PM's (find it hard to keep on top of as not always on the forum) but email away!
		
Click to expand...

Fair play, Mike.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Merely asking as Mike seems to be pseudo-moding on here.  I'm merely stating that, for a quieter life for Mike that the OOB section be shut down.

Just saying.
		
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I think Mike can decide such things on his own.

If you dont like OOB then why read it?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Merely asking as Mike seems to be pseudo-moding on here.  I'm merely stating that, for a quieter life for Mike that the OOB section be shut down.

Just saying.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I'd just find it somewhat less interesting on here without OOB, so we beg to differ; wouldn't have much discussion if we didn't.


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## stevek1969 (Apr 9, 2013)

A lot of interesting information coming out from both sides Fish and Ethan about watch actually went on during those times.


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## Dodger (Apr 9, 2013)

I wonder if people openly smiled when Bin Laden passed away.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Internment occurred during the Heath Government and was a terrible political blunder, although really at the behest of Brian Faulkner. That kept the Troubles going into the Thatcher years.
		
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:rofl::rofl:


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2013)

So whose organising the North v South next forum meet?

Kofi Annan, methinks.


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## stevie_r (Apr 9, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I wonder if people openly smiled when Bin Laden passed away.
		
Click to expand...

I would say a considerable number almost certainly did, what's your point exactly?


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 9, 2013)

Think he is getting at people celebrating death. Not really a comparison though when BL was behind the worst terrorist attack in history killing thousands of innocent people.


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

stevek1969 said:



			A lot of interesting information coming out from both sides Fish and Ethan about watch actually went on during those times.
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate hearing Fish's point of view and I hope people can see that a range of views are possible depending on where you find yourself dropped onto this planet. All seems like a long time ago now, thankfully.


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## Sweep (Apr 9, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I wonder if people openly smiled when Bin Laden passed away.
		
Click to expand...

Good point. I didn't see anyone celebrating then. Where was George Galloway? Where was Morrissey? Where was Derek Hatton? Where was Ken Livingston? Where was Gerry Adams? You may not agree with Thatcher politics but Bin Laden & co wanted us DEAD. Incidentally, did anyone notice Adams referring to the Falklands as the "malvinas". Anyone else want to side with those who stand against Britain? Anyone else want to negotiate with terrorists? Anyone else want to join Galtieri, a dictator that even the Argentinians ditched?


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## Fish (Apr 9, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I appreciate hearing Fish's point of view and I hope people can see that a range of views are possible depending on where you find yourself dropped onto this planet. All seems like a long time ago now, thankfully.
		
Click to expand...

I also appreciate your PM and I hope you mine.

It does seem a long time ago but it is worrying that there seems to be a touch paper smouldering and some, although much smaller fractions are attempting to ignite it again!


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## Ethan (Apr 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			I also appreciate your PM and I hope you mine.

It does seem a long time ago but it is worrying that there seems to be a touch paper smouldering and some, although much smaller fractions are attempting to ignite it again!
		
Click to expand...

Two steps forward, one step back seems to be the way things happen in NI. Hopefully it will only be the one step back. I can't see things going all the way back to the 80s. Too much quasi-normality has happened.


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## Sweep (Apr 9, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I don't think this thread has crossed the line. It's been an interesting debate.
		
Click to expand...

Val and I have disagreed to a degree on this subject, but we agree on this. It has been a good debate and has highlighted people's differing views on a very interesting time in British politics.


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## wrighty1874 (Apr 9, 2013)

This has been the only thread I've read over the past two days, other than The Pannal meet thread,as I'm an attendee. Great debate and intersting newspaper attachments.Beats watching the telly.Long live the OOB.


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## Phil2511 (Apr 10, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I appreciate hearing Fish's point of view and I hope people can see that a range of views are possible depending on where you find yourself dropped onto this planet. All seems like a long time ago now, thankfully.
		
Click to expand...

I understand this as well being that my mother was from a nationalist area with a high number of PIRA and my father was in the RUC for 30 years. 

In fact 1 of Fish's comrades saved his life when a PIRA sniper shot at them in West Belfast. 
Also when my father was attending a murder scene and a PIRA member was caught attempting to plant a bomb under their vehicle. 

My mother is almost 65 now and a few weeks ago I was taking her to my grandmothers house and she recalled it was the anniversary of her childhood friends death. 

She told me the story of meeting her on the Saturday afternoon and she was acting very very oddly, the following morning when my grandmother woke her she informed her that a male and a female had been blown up trying to build a bomb. My mother said the female is (the girls name), later on listening to the news it turned out she was right. 

When we were kids my mother led us to believe that my father was a binman, just so we wouldn't tell people our father was a policeman. JUST IN CASE. 
Or when we had to go and stay at our grandmothers for a few weeks when death threats were issued. 

Or when 1 mother in the street when we were small would come out and give sweets/crisps/lollies to her kids and EVERY other kid in the street except us. Which at the time we didn't understand but in later life learned it was because of my fathers job and she was a nationalist. 
I remember the barriers being shut to stop anyone entering the town centres in the evenings and the constant police check points all round the place especially if you had to travel into Belfast, and I'm not old enough to remember the really bad times. 

Thankfully those days are gone and my own kids don't have to grow up with those things going on around them.


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## chrisd (Apr 10, 2013)

I was at a dinner party with a lady who had worked in the secret services and she told me that there were only about 12 active top IRA men and a few more gophers. One day they gave the government the intelligence that all the top brass of the IRA were meeting in a caravan in a secluded area and requested permission to organise a "gas explosion accident" to wreck the organisation

The word came from the very highest level that they must not carry put the operation!

Personally I'm glad Mike H has allowed this to run, nothing has been said that I havnt heard or seen in the media and we are all grown ups with opinions, however, it's clear to me that a number of people wern't around prior to her election, or possibly during her office and really you did have to be there to see what a laughing stock the country was around the world prior to her election and how she turned that right round. Yes some did badly but that's happening in the recession we are going through now but I tell you for nothing -Maggie would have sorted the banks out and without any messing!


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2013)

As an aside, I think it is interesting how opinions and perspectives are so strongly influenced by where (and to whom) you happen to be born. As much as we might want to think we are objective, the fact is that if you are born on the Shankill rather than the Falls, or Consett rather than Carshalton, your opinions of Thatcher and many other subjects will be highly influenced by that accident of birth.


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## Smiffy (Apr 10, 2013)

Anybody else think there are going to be a lot of problems during next weeks funeral procession????


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## Alan (Apr 10, 2013)

Being a proud Scotman and having lived through her years at power, I'd love to give a story of how she affected us, but at the end of the day she has died.

Hopefully the funeral will go without incident and nobody else will die or suffer because of her being around. 

Auld Nick will be out of a job now.


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## Fish (Apr 10, 2013)

Ethan said:



			As an aside, I think it is interesting how opinions and perspectives are so strongly influenced by where (and to whom) you happen to be born. As much as we might want to think we are objective, the fact is that if you are born on the Shankill rather than the Falls, or Consett rather than Carshalton, your opinions of Thatcher and many other subjects will be highly influenced by that accident of birth.
		
Click to expand...

I'll be honest with you Ethan, I had a very different view and opinion of you before our series of PM's last night and this morning. I can honestly say that the way you came across on the forum at times and actually, even though never meeting you, I disliked you! 

However, I have enjoyed our PM exchanges and that opinion has now been removed, so, some good has come of this subject matter and it is testament that we are all different and come from very different backgrounds and upbringings but, we can all have shared very similar life changing experiences irrelevant of what side of the fence we were on at those times and they can set us up for how we emotively react when sensitive subjects arises.

I can react emotively, which is not surprising with what I have seen and been through over many years on the front line, so to speak, but, it is never, I hope, an assault on a person who is simply giving an objective opinion in a controlled manner, Id like to think I'm better than at.  I only react in a hostile way when things get personal, which should never happen and is why I frequent this forum in preference to others.

I look forward to meeting you now in the future to share some stories and view points after of course a decent round of golf.


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## Fish (Apr 10, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			Anybody else think there are going to be a lot of problems during next weeks funeral procession????
		
Click to expand...

I truly hope not but, there will be those whom will seek attention and publicity by doing something idiotic to get into the media to underline and promote their opinion.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2013)

I have doubts that the funeral will go off peacefully.
I think they have made a big error in making it ceremonial. 
I don't know who made that decision as I believe she did not want a state funeral. Probably Cameron.
Uncomfortable moments for the Queen as I gather she could not stand the woman.


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## Val (Apr 10, 2013)

Fish said:



			I look forward to meeting you now in the future to share some stories and view points after of course a* decent round of golf*.
		
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Really ya bandit :rofl:


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Nothings been "proved" yet. That's why 23 years later, people still wont accept death certificates.

It was due to the establishment, that it has taken so long. I include the government(s) in that both labour and tory, but it was on thatchers watch, with her home secretary, her police chiefs and to think she didn't know what happened is extremely naive or blind faith.
.
		
Click to expand...

A quote from David Cameron last year, "she had been advised that the South Yorks Police force were very close to deceitful."

Like any Prime Minister, they'll do good and bad during their time in office. I used to think Blair was brilliant till he totally reneged on tuition fees and then joined in the invasion in Iraq.


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## Fish (Apr 10, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Really ya bandit :rofl:



Click to expand...

I'm not sure what handicap he is but I would expect it to be quite low? So he'll play some decent golf and I'll steal the holes with my shots  

I beat my current club champion yesterday in a winter league match, I think he was on all par 5's in 2 but I still nicked it


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## Val (Apr 10, 2013)

Fish said:



			I'm not sure what handicap he is but I would expect it to be quite low? So he'll play some decent golf and I'll steal the holes with my shots  

I beat my current club champion yesterday in a winter league match, I think he was on all par 5's in 2 but I still nicked it 

Click to expand...

Good for you mate, 2 shots on certain holes won't ast long so enjoy it while you can

:thup:


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## Fish (Apr 10, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Good for you mate, 2 shots on certain holes won't ast long so enjoy it while you can

:thup:
		
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No 2 holes in matchplay, I did have a bucket load of shots though, but him being off 2, I was always over 80 yards behind him


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2013)

Fish said:



			I'll be honest with you Ethan, I had a very different view and opinion of you before our series of PM's last night and this morning. I can honestly say that the way you came across on the forum at times and actually, even though never meeting you, I disliked you! 

However, I have enjoyed our PM exchanges and that opinion has now been removed, so, some good has come of this subject matter and it is testament that we are all different and come from very different backgrounds and upbringings but, we can all have shared very similar life changing experiences irrelevant of what side of the fence we were on at those times and they can set us up for how we emotively react when sensitive subjects arises.

I can react emotively, which is not surprising with what I have seen and been through over many years on the front line, so to speak, but, it is never, I hope, an assault on a person who is simply giving an objective opinion in a controlled manner, Id like to think I'm better than at.  I only react in a hostile way when things get personal, which should never happen and is why I frequent this forum in preference to others.

I look forward to meeting you now in the future to share some stories and view points after of course a decent round of golf.
		
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Thanks Robin.

I think it is easy to come over differently on these fora to your true personality. I am happy for any reasoned debate and will try to take part in good faith.

On the decent round of golf, I will get back to you after I have got one under my belt for the season. Perhaps this Sunday might be the day.


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## Wildrover (Apr 10, 2013)

[QUOTE

Auld Nick will be out of a job now.[/QUOTE]

Brilliant!!!


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## grizzler (Apr 10, 2013)

she stood strong in northern ireland, during her time this place was on the brink, never bent her knee to the terrorists. she had more balls than any leader who has followed her. RIP Lady T


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 10, 2013)

Having been born after the Thatcher-era was in its heyday (sorry) but having a relatively active interest in politics, it's been good to see both sides of the coin on here. It's a subject that I know little about so wanted to find out more, and have been able to thanks to some very well-written arguments.

Was reading this from Russell Brand (here me out) last night, think he puts across his argument quite well - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher

Well worth a read if you've got 5 mins.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2013)

On a geographical and political note it is strange that the 'Thatcher city riots'  were all south of Preston


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## CMAC (Apr 10, 2013)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Having been born after the Thatcher-era was in its heyday (sorry) but having a relatively active interest in politics, it's been good to see both sides of the coin on here. It's a subject that I know little about so wanted to find out more, and have been able to thanks to some very well-written arguments.

Was reading this from Russell Brand (here me out) last night, think he puts across his argument quite well - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher

Well worth a read if you've got 5 mins.
		
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read it, good piece, quite close to my own underinformed views of the time


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## stevie_r (Apr 10, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On a geographical and political note it is strange that the 'Thatcher city riots'  were all south of Preston
		
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Not really, the bulk of the nations populations lives south of preston


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## Sweep (Apr 10, 2013)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Having been born after the Thatcher-era was in its heyday (sorry) but having a relatively active interest in politics, it's been good to see both sides of the coin on here. It's a subject that I know little about so wanted to find out more, and have been able to thanks to some very well-written arguments.

Was reading this from Russell Brand (here me out) last night, think he puts across his argument quite well - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher

Well worth a read if you've got 5 mins.
		
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I must admit when I read Russell Brand I inwardly groaned, but I was pleasantly surprised by quite a good piece from an obviously intelligent man. Sadly though he falls for the now accepted as fact misconception that Thatcherism was selfish and only lined the pockets of the rich. Yes, I am quite sure the rich got richer (when did this not happen under a Tory government - or Tony Blair?) but the old, infirm and vulnerable were not deserted. However, if you were able to work you had to get off your backside (or on your bike to quote Norman Tebbit). If you didn't you were left behind. If you did, you did very well. Lower taxes meant you kept more of the money you earned and the harder you worked the more you kept. Property and shares were no longer the preserve of the rich. Many would argue this was true socialism. The problem with welfare is that it is very tempting for a government to increase it every year. It makes them popular. Until you get today's situation where Â£1 in every Â£3 of taxpayers money is spent on it. Then it has to be dealt with and the baby gets thrown out with the bath water. Bedroom tax, granny tax. Sound familiar? But it is a Conservative view that those who refuse to work should never be better off than those who strive to better themselves and that is hard to argue against.
The true irony is Brand quoting Mrs. T as saying there is no such thing as society. I am not sure she ever used those words, but there is no doubt in my mind that British society died on Monday, when British people were prepared to celebrate a death. I thought we were better than that.


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## SyR (Apr 10, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			Anybody else think there are going to be a lot of problems during next weeks funeral procession????
		
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I hope the people who have nothing good to say about her stay away from her funeral.


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## Leftie (Apr 10, 2013)

I'll refrain from passing judgement on "The Iron Lady" as I _know_ that I will never have or be able to balance all the facts and actions in her political career.  The fact that she was the longest serving PM of 20th century indicates to me that the majority of people thought that she was doing a reasonable job for the country, or there was no viable alternative.

One thing I do know however is that Maggie was a fairly religious person who believed in Britain with a passion, and believed that everything she did politically was for the benefit of the country as a whole.  She would have hoped that come judgement day she would have done enough to go to the "Higher House".

For those who feel that she will have been condemned to the other place, you can bet that by now, at least half the furnaces will have been shut down. 



I would like to thank MikeH and the Mods for letting this run with sensitive moderation.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 10, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On a geographical and political note it is strange that the 'Thatcher city riots'  were all south of Preston
		
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And involved people who looked about 20!  Just out for a tear up?


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## Kellfire (Apr 10, 2013)

Fish said:



			Whether he or they were convicted, I wouldn't know as we passed them over.
		
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The lack of any conviction is exactly why you can't say the things you were saying! I've seen legal action threatened over much less!


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## Fish (Apr 10, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			The lack of any conviction is exactly why you can't say the things you were saying! I've seen legal action threatened over much less!
		
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I'd say it to their faces.


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## Kellfire (Apr 10, 2013)

Fish said:



			I'd say it to their faces.
		
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And that's fine, but to do it on an open forum could see legal repercussions against author and host aka you and GM. 

I fully understand your feelings towards Adams et al but you simply can't (legally) say certain things, no matter what evidence you claim to have. I'm only saying this to protect you, it certainly wasn't a threat.

I myself took part in a school walkout when McGuinness was appointed Minister of Education but equally I had little time for Paisley Junior's posturing when he showed up to thank us all.


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## mikee247 (Apr 10, 2013)

Fish said:



			I'd say it to their faces.
		
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I have said it to his face (Adams that is) on the the falls road in his Armoured Granada!  I fully support Fish's comments and having spent many many months in these parts of the UK Im aware of the atrocities he and his cronies are responsible for. Ill refrain from commenting on what I think should be done to him but alas Im gob smacked that he now sits in a position of authority as with McGuiness and people actually allow him to make decisions.  Like its been said you dont negotiate with terrorists and there is no difference between these guys and Bin Laden. 

Not sure if it was answered for Ethan - COP = Close observation Platoon. Plain clothes Servicemen (one form of) normally as a unit from the Recce Platoon of an Infantry Battalion working on the streets using surveillance techniques and gathering intelligence.  These and even more specialised deeper undercover guys were right in the middle of it and fully up to speed of what went on in these Republican and Loyalist strongholds. 

A decent book for you to all read "Big Boys Rules" Quite an eye opener for those who might be interested.


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## Val (Apr 10, 2013)

mikee247 said:



			A decent book for you to all read "Big Boys Rules" Quite an eye opener for those who might be interested.
		
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Cheers for that, I have read a good book on the troubles for yonks. Last book I read was ages ago about a female helicopter in the AAC  working with the det, can't remember the name. Also the book about Ian Phoenix was pretty good too.


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## Kellfire (Apr 10, 2013)

I've had Voices from the Grave: Two Men's War in Ireland sat out to read for a long time but never got around to it, I must get back into it again.


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## Five&One (Apr 11, 2013)

Living in Thatcher's Britain VS Living in Scargill's Britain

Think of it that way and you'll feel a bit more at ease. I know I do.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 11, 2013)

ANOTHER post removed because it didn't fit into the Thatcher love in?


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 11, 2013)

Nothing to do with a Thatcher love in, just a tasteless and crass remark. I cant stand Tony Blair or Gordon Brown or any Labour MP but certainly would not be toasting their passing nor make remarks on a public forum and at the end of the day it is somebodies mother and grandmother we are talking about. How would you feel if it was your own mother/grandmother that had sadly passed away and somebody was posting remarks on a public forum with pint glasses being raised.


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## Slime (Apr 11, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			ANOTHER post removed because it didn't fit into the Thatcher love in?
		
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That's why it was removed, was it?
Grow up and act like a civil human being.
She was an old lady and was no threat to you or anyone else, so why are you celebrating her passing?
Celebrating her fall from power is fair enough, stick to that and stop being so bitter.

*Slime*.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 11, 2013)

Gentlemen, I must ask that all your comments on this emotive subject are kept on a level that is tasteful, 

Thank you


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## Slime (Apr 12, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Gentlemen, I must ask that all your comments on this emotive subject are kept on a level that is tasteful, 
Thank you
		
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Point taken *Phil*. 
Sorry.
Can't believe just how emotive this subject is. 

*Slime*.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that sure she was a flawed person at all.  Determined and principled - absolutely.  And pretty damned ruthless to do what she believed was right - even when she knew that she would be 'hated' by some and disliked by many for doing it.  Flawed - no - well not in my eyes.
		
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Or Hitler


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## stevie_r (Apr 12, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Or Hitler
		
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Comparing Thatcher to Hitler is as ridiculous as the attempt to compare her to Bin Laden the other night.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 12, 2013)

Slime said:



			That's why it was removed, was it?
Grow up and act like a civil human being.
She was an old lady and was no threat to you or anyone else, so why are you celebrating her passing?
Celebrating her fall from power is fair enough, stick to that and stop being so bitter.

*Slime*.
		
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No celebrations in my post  #323 PC Slime, merely an observation.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Comparing Thatcher to Hitler is as ridiculous as the attempt to compare her to Bin Laden the other night.
		
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She managed to destroy more industry in Scotland, than the Luftwaffe.


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## Val (Apr 12, 2013)

Slime said:



			Point taken *Phil*. 
Sorry.
Can't believe just how emotive this subject is. 

*Slime*.
		
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That's because you live in Surrey and never really expierenced the devastation that some of her decisions made on communities


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## MikeH (Apr 12, 2013)

Let's get this thread back on track or it'll be locked off whcih would be shame as there have been some great posts made on both sides of the debate


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2013)

Valentino said:



			That's because you live in Surrey and never really expierenced the devastation that some of her decisions made on communities
		
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Without digressing, and I'm certainly not going to blanket this comment as it possibly won't be relevant in all circumstances but, wasn't it a case that some of those industries were already struggling, already had been supported financially and helped and were still failing to some degree, if not totally? 

Not only that, where were the additional finances going to come from to update the poor working conditions that a lot of workers were experiencing whilst some of those industries, factory's & plants were failing?  All this whilst the fat-cat unions were having jolly boys outings and mortgages paid for and driving around in Jaguars whilst their contributors (members) were on 2 or 3 day weeks, if they were lucky!

Isn't it just a case that she had the balls to do what needed to be done, and probably should have been done years before but no one stepped up to the plate? 

I pigeon hole her as like having a git and bar steward of a manager to work for, not one of these Jekyll & Hyde's that you don't know where you really stand and can change their mood like the weather, I know who I'd prefer to work for and have lead my country, a doer whether you like the decisions (policies) or not and not this weak rabble we have now across all party's.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			She managed to destroy more industry in Scotland, than the Luftwaffe.
		
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Once again........for those of us who lived through those times.........it was the communist unions who destroyed the 1970's industries not Thatcher.
The also destroyed the old Labour party


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again........for those of us who lived through those times.........it was the communist unions who destroyed the 1970's industries not Thatcher.
The also destroyed the old Labour party
		
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Spot on!

So much money was being plowed into paying to get strikers back into work, there was nowt being spent on modernising plant. And then having got them back into work they were back out coz an engineer picked up a sweeping brush...

The Liverpool dockers spent more time arguing about job demarction than they did working... and they were coining it in. They'd think nowt of giving a docker's threpnybit(50p) as a tip for just about anything, e.g. a taxi ride to work. 50p in the mid/late 70's wasn't loose change.

Bring back Maggie!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 12, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again........for those of us who lived through those times.........it was the communist unions who destroyed the 1970's industries not Thatcher.
The also destroyed the old Labour party
		
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Maybe so, maybe not.

Have you an answer for all the other things that she did, or are you just blind to everything, in the interests of something had to be done.

For some the "medicine" was worse than the illness, as it was sparingly given.


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## Iaing (Apr 12, 2013)

This could go around in circles forever!
North v South
Industry v Finance
Hammered by her policies v Did very nicely thanks
Looney Left v Ridiculous Right
Et all ...

Divisive then and divisive now, even in death.

I say get her buried and move on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Maybe so, maybe not.

Have you an answer for all the other things that she did, or are you just blind to everything, in the interests of something had to be done.

For some the "medicine" was worse than the illness, as it was sparingly given.
		
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The union leaders of that time were like out of control gangsters.
The had the Labour party totally in there pockets.
Jim Callaghan tried to steady the ship and that lead to the winter of discontent. They hung him out to dry and paved the way for Thatcher to bring in policies that had huge support from the working classes. As I said earlier I went into a depot and all ten green keepers were voting Tory.
The changes she introduced in the early years were popular, that is why she was re-elected.
The Poll Tax done for her, good idea badly managed.
By that time she had a very poor cabinet, remember the brown envelope times. Two or three even ended in jail.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 12, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The union leaders of that time were like out of control gangsters.
The had the Labour party totally in there pockets.
Jim Callaghan tried to steady the ship and that lead to the winter of discontent. They hung him out to dry and paved the way for Thatcher to bring in policies that had huge support from the working classes. As I said earlier I went into a depot and all ten green keepers were voting Tory.
*The changes she introduced in the early years were popular, that is why she was re-elected.*
The Poll Tax done for her, good idea badly managed.
By that time she had a very poor cabinet, remember the brown envelope times. Two or three even ended in jail.
		
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Nope, she was re-elected on a wave of popularity after the Falklands conflict, going to the polls at the earliest opportunity afterwards.


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## Slime (Apr 12, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Nope, *she was re-elected on a wave of popularity after the Falklands conflict*, going to the polls at the earliest opportunity afterwards.
		
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And the third election that she won in 1987?

*Slime*.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 12, 2013)

Slime said:



			And the third election that she won in 1987?

*Slime*.
		
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A hugely reduced majority despite Labour still being in disarray. I understand how our electoral system works, so no need for anyone to explain FPTP, but it should be stated that the majority of voters did not vote for her so not as popular as some would like to make out. (And not as universally hated as others might suggest)


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## Slime (Apr 12, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



*A hugely reduced majority despite Labour still being in disarray*. I understand how our electoral system works, so no need for anyone to explain FPTP, but it should be stated that the majority of voters did not vote for her so not as popular as some would like to make out. (And not as universally hated as others might suggest)
		
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It was a reduced majority when copmpared to her previous election win in 1983, but, her majority was MUCH larger than the one she achieved in 1979.

*Slime*.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 12, 2013)

Slime said:



			It was a reduced majority when copmpared to her previous election win in 1983, but, her majority was MUCH larger than the one she achieved in 1979.

*Slime*.
		
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Blast! Outwitted! :ears:


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## Slime (Apr 12, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Blast! Outwitted! :ears:
		
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Never mind matey, win some, lose some.
At least you had the good grace to openly admit it ................... respect :thup:.

*Slime*.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 12, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			A hugely reduced majority despite Labour still being in disarray. I understand how our electoral system works, so no need for anyone to explain FPTP, but it should be stated that the majority of voters did not vote for her so not as popular as some would like to make out. (And not as universally hated as others might suggest)
		
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Well said  - millions more voted for liberal and Labour than for her/them.

Hitler also won an election, BTW - and no I'm not comparing them.

The unions nearly destroyed the country, Thatcher destroyed them and their industries.

Looks like no winners to me.


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## stevie_r (Apr 12, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Well said  - millions more voted for liberal and Labour than for her/them.

Hitler also won an election, BTW - and no I'm not comparing them.

The unions nearly destroyed the country, Thatcher destroyed them and their industries.

Looks like no winners to me.
		
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Well, apart from the millions who are now home owners who probably wouldn't have been without her.

Funny isn't it, last week people were up in arms regarding benefits; the consensus of many being that everyone should get up off their butt and work - because you can if you want too.  We had a poster (forget who) saying these people should consider starting their own business, the sort of entrepreneurial spirit that Maggie would have loved.  

So mass unemployment, nearly a quarter of a century after she left power, Maggie's fault or not?  I suggest not, we could of course subsidise car plants who occasionally turn out a car of Trabant like rubbishness whilst the work force stand at the gates warming themselves around a brazier.  

We could continue to subsidise Steel Mills which are uncompetitive on the world market because the work force wants to work as little as possible but for as much as possible.  Ditto shipbuilding. 

We could do this whilst borrowing money from the IMF until we simply can't borrow any more and then pray that a strong leader comes along, who actually doesn't give a toss about anyone's personal opinion of them but takes unpopular decisions because they are necessary.


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## Snelly (Apr 12, 2013)

I can't stand socialists.   Supposed to be Liberals but what they really mean is that everything that contravenes their world view should be abolished.  


And this campaign to get Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead to number 1 in the charts is just awful. What a disgracefully disrespectful idea.  The utter, utter morons that are buying the tune must be pretty horrible people.  Am looking forward to meeting someone that has taken part in this. 

Ditto all the Thatcher haters who are today, vowing to line the streets of the funeral procession and turn their backs as the cavalcade travels by.  Have these people really not got anything better to do with their empty, pointless, bitter, twisted little lives than this?  

Absolutely pathetic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2013)

Snelly said:



			...And this campaign to get Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead to number 1 in the charts is just awful. What a disgracefully disrespectful idea.  The utter, utter morons that are buying the tune must be pretty horrible people.  Am looking forward to meeting someone that has taken part in this. 

Ditto all the Thatcher haters who are today, vowing to line the streets of the funeral procession and turn their backs as the cavalcade travels by.  Have these people really not got anything better to do with their empty, pointless, bitter, twisted little lives than this?  

Absolutely pathetic.
		
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+1 with you on this - even though I may be a lot closer to being one of these socialists you can't stand than a Thatcherite


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## stevie_r (Apr 12, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I can't stand socialists.   Supposed to be Liberals but what they really mean is that everything that contravenes their world view should be abolished.  


And this campaign to get Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead to number 1 in the charts is just awful. What a disgracefully disrespectful idea.  The utter, utter morons that are buying the tune must be pretty horrible people.  Am looking forward to meeting someone that has taken part in this. 

Ditto all the Thatcher haters who are today, vowing to line the streets of the funeral procession and turn their backs as the cavalcade travels by.  Have these people really not got anything better to do with their empty, pointless, bitter, twisted little lives than this?  

Absolutely pathetic.
		
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The majority will be the rent-a-mob tree huggers who probably weren't even born when she was in power but are just desperate to have something to protest - right on man; where's the coffee bean shake smiley when you need one?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2013)

Slime said:



			And the third election that she won in 1987?

*Slime*.
		
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Maggie or the Welsh Windbag that was not a contest.
Kinnock playing the President after the biggest U turn in British politics, he was un-electable.


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## Sweep (Apr 12, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Well said  - millions more voted for liberal and Labour than for her/them.

Hitler also won an election, BTW - and no I'm not comparing them.

The unions nearly destroyed the country, Thatcher destroyed them and their industries.

Looks like no winners to me.
		
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When Tony Blair won his "landslide" victory he won 24% of the available electorate vote. One of the vagaries of our election system I am afraid. I know you are not comparing them, but Hitler also lost a few elections. Every time he lost he forced another election, each time garnering more votes, before finally burning down the Reichstag and blaming it on terrorists.
It is a sad but nonetheless true fact that more pits closed under Harold Wilson than Mrs. Thatcher. I am sure the ones that closed under Wilson were unprofitable, as they all would have been eventually. The real question is how many were closed under Thatcher that were profitable? The numbers vary significantly depending on which side you listen to. We must remember that the government tried to privatise the pits and no-one wanted to buy the ones that closed. some were sold. However, I believe it was the fact that her government did nothing to attract investment into the areas where the pits had closed that was her biggest and probably only real fault. If they had attracted investment into say high tech industries where people could swap their pit helmets for warm, clean working conditions, she would have carried the people with her. Nevertheless it was Scargill and the unions that picked the fights, not Mrs. T. She just didn't buckle like the previous PMs. We also have to accept that it is very difficult to attract private investment into highly unionised workplaces and in that sense you only have the unions to blame.


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 12, 2013)

Mark Steel wrote an interesting piece in the independent today - http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...now-that-margaret-thatchers-dead-8568785.html

I'm sure it will be hated by the Thatcherites and maybe liked by t'others but found it a good read nonetheless.


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## thecraw (Apr 12, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I can't stand socialists.   Supposed to be Liberals but what they really mean is that everything that contravenes their world view should be abolished.  


And this campaign to get Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead to number 1 in the charts is just awful. What a disgracefully disrespectful idea.  The utter, utter morons that are buying the tune must be pretty horrible people.  Am looking forward to meeting someone that has taken part in this. 

Ditto all the Thatcher haters who are today, vowing to line the streets of the funeral procession and turn their backs as the cavalcade travels by.  Have these people really not got anything better to do with their empty, pointless, bitter, twisted little lives than this?  

Absolutely pathetic.
		
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Spot on Snelly.


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 12, 2013)

Snelly said:



			what they really mean is that everything that contravenes their world view should be abolished.  


And this campaign to get Ding, Dong ....
		
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But surely, this is same for the majority of people with strong political beliefs? It certainly seemed that Mrs Thatcher wasn't too keen on those who opposed her particular ideals (again, I wasn't around at the time - just from the stuff that's been said on here / I've read separately). In the same way that both extreme right & left wingers would like to see the other one eradicated.

However, with you 100% on the song thing. A decent article in the NME today saying that if it were to go to the top of the charts come Sunday, they might play it out on air. Been interesting seeing it rise through the midweeks we get at work.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 12, 2013)

What I don't get about the miner's dispute is that if a mine was profitable, why would it be shut down?  Isn't it the same as any industry - if you're making more money than you're spending then you're OK.  If you're running at a loss then, at some point, you're going to go bust.  
I've lived with my parents this last week and I've been listening to their stories of the 70s and how the British people put up with those conditions are beyond me!  The dead left unburied, rubbish being dumped pretty much anywhere, a 2/3 day working week - why?  Because the unions had called the workers out.  How can a country run like this?  The answer - it couldn't!  Maggie had the balls to deal with the unions face on - and she won.
One thing about Arthur Scargill that's not mentioned.  The HQ of the NUM used to be behind Buckingham Palace.  Scargill shut this down and moved it up north.  I wonder whether he cared about the workers in London that he was making redundant...
A family member works for the council.  Her manager asked her to do a piece of work.  Her first response?  "Has this been sent to the union to make sure it's within my defined job description?"  The manager had to send the work and his request off to the union to make sure it was OK for my family member to do it.  No wonder nothing gets done by local councils!  Unions do nothing but restrict and hamper productivity.


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## Val (Apr 12, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again........for those of us who lived through those times.........it was the communist unions who destroyed the 1970's industries not Thatcher.
The also destroyed the old Labour party
		
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They lit the fire, she fanned and fuelled the flames till it went out


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## Val (Apr 12, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I can't stand socialists.   Supposed to be Liberals but what they really mean is that everything that contravenes their world view should be abolished.  


And this campaign to get Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead to number 1 in the charts is just awful. What a disgracefully disrespectful idea.  The utter, utter morons that are buying the tune must be pretty horrible people.  Am looking forward to meeting someone that has taken part in this. 

Ditto all the Thatcher haters who are today, vowing to line the streets of the funeral procession and turn their backs as the cavalcade travels by.  Have these people really not got anything better to do with their empty, pointless, bitter, twisted little lives than this?  

Absolutely pathetic.
		
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Pathetic is being kind to these cretins Snelly. Dislike her all you like but you have to respect the dead and the mourning family.


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 12, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			What I don't get about the miner's dispute is that if a mine was profitable, why would it be shut down?  Isn't it the same as any industry - if you're making more money than you're spending then you're OK.  If you're running at a loss then, at some point, you're going to go bust.  
I've lived with my parents this last week and I've been listening to their stories of the 70s and how the British people put up with those conditions are beyond me!  The dead left unburied, rubbish being dumped pretty much anywhere, a 2/3 day working week - why?  Because the unions had called the workers out.  How can a country run like this?  The answer - it couldn't!  Maggie had the balls to deal with the unions face on - and she won.
One thing about Arthur Scargill that's not mentioned.  The HQ of the NUM used to be behind Buckingham Palace.  Scargill shut this down and moved it up north.  I wonder whether he cared about the workers in London that he was making redundant...
A family member works for the council.  Her manager asked her to do a piece of work.  Her first response?  "Has this been sent to the union to make sure it's within my defined job description?"  The manager had to send the work and his request off to the union to make sure it was OK for my family member to do it.  No wonder nothing gets done by local councils!  Unions do nothing but restrict and hamper productivity.
		
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Good post buddy some sensible stuff in their. I was born in 1979 so my parents lived through the times you mention as well. I have heard all sorts of stories, some of which you wouldn't believe if I told you, power being cut off due to strikes and rubbish everywhere it sounds like a scene from a disaster movie it really was unbelievable what went on. Being from Chesterfield which is a solid Labour voting area I am in a minority round there, only myself and my dad are tory voters in the family and friends and they see nothing wrong in what occured through the unions, and hate measures that Maggie took. She did not get everything right granted but who does. She is still leagues ahead of the last 3 lots of rabble that we have had. Scargill is nothing but a rabble rousing yob, I notice he has done very nicely for himself through the years as well bit different to the people he was fighting for


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## Cherry13 (Apr 12, 2013)

I have continually read this thread over the last few days and found it extremely interesting and informative,  whilst continuing to remain fairly cordial which is a pleasent surprise considering the topic. 

I personally don't harbour any ill feeling towards Thatcher, or her policies.  I also think personally I have gained much from her policies,  so I suppose quite selfishly I should be grateful.

I own my own house, which was bought from a ex council owner.  As does my mam which i will one day inherit. (Owns her home)
I also work in the de-regulated energy market which she started

Also just one point to add on the hitler comments..... godwins law!!!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 12, 2013)

Genuine question to people who were working in the early 70's:-

I know it's a bit chicken and the egg, but was it wage rises that stimulated inflation, or the other way round. 

I know that more people where probably employed by the state in them days, but also private sector pay also normally follows or leads in the same direction.

People are moaning about the unions and maybe rightfully so, but if oil prices go up, food, cost of living, rent (or interest rates), people are going to ask for more money. Did the oil crisis kick it off and wage rises, industrial strife follow as a result?

I think we are teetering now and there isn't major industrial action due to mortgage rates being so low. I am saving Â£300 on my mortgage than what it was 3 years ago, but that has been offset and more by the price of petrol, food, gas and leccy.

If interest rates went up to say even 5% now, I think we all would be demanding higher wages.


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## stevie_r (Apr 12, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Genuine question to people who were working in the early 70's:-

I know it's a bit chicken and the egg, but was it wage rises that stimulated inflation, or the other way round. 

I know that more people where probably employed by the state in them days, but also private sector pay also normally follows or leads in the same direction.

People are moaning about the unions and maybe rightfully so, but if oil prices go up, food, cost of living, rent (or interest rates), people are going to ask for more money. Did the oil crisis kick it off and wage rises, industrial strife follow as a result?

I think we are teetering now and there isn't major industrial action due to mortgage rates being so low. I am saving Â£300 on my mortgage than what it was 3 years ago, but that has been offset and more by the price of petrol, food, gas and leccy.

If interest rates went up to say even 5% now, *I think we all would be demanding higher wages*.
		
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Good luck with that


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Genuine question to people who were working in the early 70's:-

I know it's a bit chicken and the egg, but was it wage rises that stimulated inflation, or the other way round. 

I know that more people where probably employed by the state in them days, but also private sector pay also normally follows or leads in the same direction.

People are moaning about the unions and maybe rightfully so, but if oil prices go up, food, cost of living, rent (or interest rates), people are going to ask for more money. Did the oil crisis kick it off and wage rises, industrial strife follow as a result?

I think we are teetering now and there isn't major industrial action due to mortgage rates being so low. I am saving Â£300 on my mortgage than what it was 3 years ago, but that has been offset and more by the price of petrol, food, gas and leccy.

If interest rates went up to say even 5% now, I think we all would be demanding higher wages.
		
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The problem is that it's not the employers fault.  If they have to pay you more then they have to charge more for their product which is inflationary, you would then want more wages, and so on and so forth.


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## Iaing (Apr 13, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			The problem is that it's not the employers fault.  If they have to pay you more then they have to charge more for their product which is inflationary, you would then want more wages, and so on and so forth.
		
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Nor is it the employees fault!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 13, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Good luck with that 

Click to expand...

I know matey, not proposing one, just saying that if interest rates went up a few percent, the country would be up rays creek.

I haven't had a cost of living one for about 6 years (at two different employers).


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## Iaing (Apr 13, 2013)

The people who would be up 'Ray's creek' if interest rates go up are the people who are over mortgaged. Businesses budget for interest rate rises, most individuals don't.


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## stevie_r (Apr 13, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I know matey, not proposing one, just saying that if interest rates went up a few percent, the country would be up rays creek.

I haven't had a cost of living one for about 6 years (at two different employers).
		
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The problem a lot of people find during this recession, is if you get made redundant and manage to find similar employment, you are likely to be earning considerably less.  Experienced this unfortunately


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## Iaing (Apr 13, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			The problem a lot of people find during this recession, is if you get made redundant and manage to find similar employment, you are likely to be earning considerably less.  Experienced this unfortunately 

Click to expand...

Surely you could have 'got on your bike' and found something better elsewhere?


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## Sweep (Apr 13, 2013)

Snelly said:



			And this campaign to get Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead to number 1 in the charts is just awful. What a disgracefully disrespectful idea.  The utter, utter morons that are buying the tune must be pretty horrible people.  Am looking forward to meeting someone that has taken part in this. 

Ditto all the Thatcher haters who are today, vowing to line the streets of the funeral procession and turn their backs as the cavalcade travels by.  Have these people really not got anything better to do with their empty, pointless, bitter, twisted little lives than this?  

Absolutely pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. The thing that strikes me is that most of the people at the "death partys" and presumably most buying the music are young. These people weren't around in the 80's. If you are under 23 you never lived under Thatcher rule. Whilst that doesn't mean they are not entitled to their opinion, it does raise the question as to why they have that opinion and hold often misguided views. I can only conclude that it is their parents and grandparents that have passed down this hatred. Do you remember when Tony Blair stepped down and David Cameron had all the Tory benches stand and applaud him? And yet here we are with people from the left falling over themselves to deliver the most heinous condemnations of Mrs. Thatcher before she has gone cold. The left have shown themselves up this week for exactly who they are. A classless, bitter rabble full of hatred and vitriol. Either their parents didn't teach them how to behave or they have forgotten. This is not the British working class I know and respect.
We also have to ask, why don't those who are celebrating want people to do better by going out to work? Why don't they want decent working people to own their own home? Why don't they want working families to own shares? All things Mrs. Thatcher made possible. Because to do all that you have to get off your backside in the first place. That is exactly what they don't want to do and under too many governments they haven't had to. Under Mrs. Thatcher nobody got a free ride on the backs of hard working people and that is exactly what they cannot abide.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 13, 2013)

Through the early parts of my mortgage interest rates were running between 6 to 8%.
After Black Thursday interest rates touched 15% for a while.

What would you rather have nowadays, status quo or 8% inflation with everyone fighting for a pay rise?


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## stevie_r (Apr 13, 2013)

Iaing said:



			Surely you could have 'got on your bike' and found something better elsewhere?
		
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Do you not think I would have done that?  The average wage across a number of jobs, for a new start at a company, is considerably lower than it was a few years ago.


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## 2blue (Apr 13, 2013)

People have very strong feelings about this......  that cannot be prevented.....  however, using someones funeral for political gain is absolutely shameful and that the Head of State is involved in this, makes it even worse. This is why the strength of response is as it is.....  a simple "going" would have been so much more appropriate and would have been left alone by many of those who had to endure her, uncaring, evil times & actions....ie  mostly us in The North.
As virtually all the media & their responses are skewed, other than The Independent, it makes the 69p download cost of DD an effective & clear message, even though it doesn't mention her directly & doesn't involve encouraging police to beat citizens with batons.........  though, sadly, I think this will be seen again on Wed. :-(      This could all have been avoided.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 13, 2013)

I said from the start that a Ceremonial funeral was a big mistake. Probably one that the decision makers will regret.

It could be the match that will inflame the far left. They have been boiling under for too long now.

There again maybeees that is what the decision makers want.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 13, 2013)

2blue said:



			doesn't involve encouraging police to beat citizens with batons.........  though, sadly, I think this will be seen again on Wed. :-(
		
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Is it not the Police's job to maintain order?  If they're confronted by a sizeable mob intent on criminal damage and/or physical damage, how do you propose that they maintain order?  A quiet word?  A 'de-stress counselling session'?  Perhaps a group hug?  No!  You hit them and you hit them hard.  There's no other way.  Ask any football hooligan from the 70s/80s.  

Or, go on to the continent and see how the Police deal with rioters/unruly protesters.  Tear gas, rubber bullets and very, very strong arm tactics.  Our Police are very restrained considering.


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## 2blue (Apr 13, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I said from the start that a Ceremonial funeral was a big mistake. Probably one that the decision makers will regret.

It could be the match that will inflame the far left. They have been boiling under for too long now.

*There again maybeees that is what the decision makers want.*

Click to expand...

Could be....  for political gain...  shameful....  involvement right from the top....  they're all in it together


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2013)

Iaing said:



			Nor is it the employees fault!
		
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Many small businesses go under if the wage bill rises and they cant pass on the costs, it's everyones responsibility in a business to act responsibly.  Unfortunately much of the bloated public sector think the money supply for them is endless.   Another issue only strong leadership can tackle.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 13, 2013)

Whilst that doesn't mean they are not entitled to their opinion, it does raise the question as to why they have that opinion and hold often misguided views. I can only conclude that it is their parents and grandparents that have passed down this hatred. Do you remember when Tony Blair stepped down and David Cameron had all the Tory benches stand and applaud him? And yet here we are with people from the left falling over themselves to deliver the most heinous condemnations of Mrs. Thatcher before she has gone cold. The left have shown themselves up this week for exactly who they are. A classless, bitter rabble full of hatred and vitriol. Either their parents didn't teach them how to behave or they have forgotten. This is not the British working class I know and respect.
We also have to ask, why don't those who are celebrating want people to do better by going out to work? Why don't they want decent working people to own their own home? Why don't they want working families to own shares? All things Mrs. Thatcher made possible. Because to do all that you have to get off your backside in the first place. That is exactly what they don't want to do and under too many governments they haven't had to. Under Mrs. Thatcher nobody got a free ride on the backs of hard working people and that is exactly what they cannot abide.[/QUOTE]

Utter rubbish, so tar every left leaning thinker as "classless, bitter rabble full of hatred and vitriol" - can you hear yourself. I think one thing that comes through this thread is lots of different views ans extremes from both left and right, but oh no, were all the same.

"Under Mrs. Thatcher nobody got a free ride on the backs of hard working people and that is exactly what they cannot abide" - so all the bankers, futures traders, millionaire off shore account tax avoiders didn't.

What world do you live in?

Sorry, cat doffed and forelock tugged, my liege.


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## 2blue (Apr 13, 2013)

Pete.....  North...South...  worlds apart. You wouldn't think we speak the same language let alone share the same culture. How have we have moved so far away from each other. They are not even close to understanding our feelings about her....  or more importantly, why!!!!  I'm probably a fair bit older than most on this forum and can honestly say that from my experience the North is a caring/sharing culture..   the South, every thing you can get away with is fair game and up for grabs. Maybe a pretty broad description but there'll be a few nodding heads.


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## Val (Apr 13, 2013)

2blue said:



			Pete.....  North...South...  worlds apart. You wouldn't think we speak the same language let alone share the same culture. How have we have moved so far away from each other. They are not even close to understanding our feelings about her....  or more importantly, why!!!!  I'm probably a fair bit older than most on this forum and can honestly say that from my experience the North is a caring/sharing culture..   the South, every thing you can get away with is fair game and up for grabs. Maybe a pretty broad description but there'll be a few nodding heads.
		
Click to expand...


Dave you don't speak the same language


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## USER1999 (Apr 13, 2013)

Can you doff a cat?

Is it even legal?


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			The problem a lot of people find during this recession(
		
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We aren't in a recession and mentions of a triple dip recession in this thread are false.


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## Val (Apr 13, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			We aren't in a recession and mentions of a triple dip recession in this thread are false.
		
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Officially we aren't in a recession but try telling that to the building trade, things have been brutal since 2008


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Officially we aren't in a recession but try telling that to the building trade, things have been brutal since 2008
		
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I know many industries are faltering but people bandy about the term recession without having a baldy notion what it means.


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## Val (Apr 13, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			I know many industries are faltering but people bandy about the term recession without having a baldy notion what it means.
		
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We've tinkered on the brink for years mate, that's why interest rates are still as low.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 13, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Can you doff a cat?

Is it even legal?
		
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That's what we wear for headwear oop north, we're that poor. Well before the hat tax kicks in at least.........


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2013)

Valentino said:



			We've tinkered on the brink for years mate, that's why interest rates are still as low.
		
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I know that, others don't yet comment as experts.


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## 2blue (Apr 13, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Dave you don't speak the same language 

Click to expand...

Ahhhh...  that's where I've seen that nodding head :rofl:

Roll on Silloth......  Â£15 .....  even with Scottish inflation its a steal....  just how did they price it at that????

Talking of bargains....  did you see the Sept Meet I'm running on HDIDo ?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2013)

2blue said:



			Pete.....  North...South...  worlds apart. You wouldn't think we speak the same language let alone share the same culture. How have we have moved so far away from each other. They are not even close to understanding our feelings about her....  or more importantly, why!!!!  I'm probably a fair bit older than most on this forum and can honestly say that from my experience the North is a caring/sharing culture..   the South, every thing you can get away with is fair game and up for grabs. Maybe a pretty broad description but there'll be a few nodding heads.
		
Click to expand...

It genuinely saddens me to read posts like this.   How can people use such broad terms like North/South to categorise people in this country. 

I have met people from the four corners of this Earth and one thing I have learned is that the vast majority people on the planet are very similar, they get on with their day to day lives and do their best to put some bread on the table.   IMHO it is completely pointless to dwell on things that happened in the past, we cant change them and in general were not responsible for them.

How can anyone tar all in the South with the same brush, you would think that they are all Bankers with  big bonuses or city stockbrokers wheeling and dealing with others money.   Come and look around, you will see the same man on the street working his gonads off to look after his family, Mothers that are faced with the conflicting pressure of work and care for the children.

Magaret Thatcher is a person of the past, most wont even have experienced that era and will not be able to understand how the people on the street; North and South were carried along with no real influence on the politic.  Most what you call Southerners (what ever that means (maybe you could elaborate)) are getting on with their lives as best they can, how can you hold them responsible for the actions of politicians of almost 40 years past.

Move on and drop the bad blood, it is not real life or a way forward.


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## 2blue (Apr 13, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			It genuinely saddens me to read posts like this.   How can people use such broad terms like North/South to categorise people in this country. 

I have met people from the four corners of this Earth and one thing I have learned is that the vast majority people on the planet are very similar, they get on with their day to day lives and do their best to put some bread on the table.   IMHO it is completely pointless to dwell on things that happened in the past, we cant change them and in general were not responsible for them.

How can anyone tar all in the South with the same brush, you would think that they are all Bankers with  big bonuses or city stockbrokers wheeling and dealing with others money.   Come and look around, you will see the same man on the street working his gonads off to look after his family, Mothers that are faced with the conflicting pressure of work and care for the children.

Magaret Thatcher is a person of the past, most wont even have experienced that era and will not be able to understand how the people on the street; North and South were carried along with no real influence on the politic.  Most what you call Southerners (what ever that means (maybe you could elaborate)) are getting on with their lives as best they can, how can you hold them responsible for the actions of politicians of almost 40 years past.

Move on and drop the bad blood, it is not real life or a way forward.
		
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Having sat with a Fijian fisherman in 1980 and been at one in discussing the basics of life I can appreciate some of your points but as soon as this funeral matter arose it was very clear that my southern cousins (family members had to move south to get money to send North) are looking thro' a very different crystal ball...  little has changed over the decades...  no Bad Blood...   just the way it is.


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## Basher (Apr 14, 2013)

I hope that due respect for the dead will be shown at her funeral. I very much doubt it though. The far left are already plotting demos and other sick displays of repulsive nature. Not a great spectacle for her family and friends to witness. I sincerely feel for her family who's mourning will be grossly distracted by the unruly mobs that will be out on the streets. No doubt the Socialist Worker banners will be out on the streets too. Sick, vile and deplorable behaviour in our so called civilised island.

I do remember what the country was like pre Thatcher and it wasn't a very nice place to live. Strikes almost every week, power cuts etc. *She was a woman who put Britain first* She loved this country and fought our corner in European matters.
I cannot believe the vitriol that the old fool Kinnock still spouts. To me he's still hurting from being roundly wupped by her in the General Election. At least he and his repulsive wife are still coining it in on the gravy train that is the European Union. Parasites! 

Politics aside, she was someones mother and due respect for that fact should be shown on the day of her funeral.


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## Foxholer (Apr 14, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I know it's a bit chicken and the egg, but was it wage rises that stimulated inflation, or the other way round.
		
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IMO, that is the question that has kept - and will keep - economists and advisers in work for years!

And it's really all down to personal opinion - imo of course. And personal opinion also drives, and is driven by, political leaning/doctrine.

As for Lady Thatcher, I believe she has been both credited with and castigated for far more than she deserved. 

As an outside observer, I believe she was right for Britain - at the time. And remember that this was when Britain's industrial strength was demonstrated by the production of the might Morris Marina, the last (Austin) Princess, Triumph TR7 and Rover SD1!

The Poll Tax, though arguably a 'fairer' tax than the system it replaced, was a (predictable) disaster for her, though a triumph for protest and the legitimate swamping of incompetent bureaucracy!


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## JustOne (Apr 14, 2013)

This thread is getting boring now.

Just thought I'd mention that :thup:

Thank God the (eventual) thread for Gordon Brown will be a short one :whoo:


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## freddielong (Apr 14, 2013)

This is the saddest thread I have ever seen how can people be happy with the death of an old lady, who did her best for the country. even if some people don't like her politics they have to agree she got the faulklands right. 

Just let her rest in peace


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## Sweep (Apr 14, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Whilst that doesn't mean they are not entitled to their opinion, it does raise the question as to why they have that opinion and hold often misguided views. I can only conclude that it is their parents and grandparents that have passed down this hatred. Do you remember when Tony Blair stepped down and David Cameron had all the Tory benches stand and applaud him? And yet here we are with people from the left falling over themselves to deliver the most heinous condemnations of Mrs. Thatcher before she has gone cold. The left have shown themselves up this week for exactly who they are. A classless, bitter rabble full of hatred and vitriol. Either their parents didn't teach them how to behave or they have forgotten. This is not the British working class I know and respect.
We also have to ask, why don't those who are celebrating want people to do better by going out to work? Why don't they want decent working people to own their own home? Why don't they want working families to own shares? All things Mrs. Thatcher made possible. Because to do all that you have to get off your backside in the first place. That is exactly what they don't want to do and under too many governments they haven't had to. Under Mrs. Thatcher nobody got a free ride on the backs of hard working people and that is exactly what they cannot abide.
		
Click to expand...

Utter rubbish, so tar every left leaning thinker as "classless, bitter rabble full of hatred and vitriol" - can you hear yourself. I think one thing that comes through this thread is lots of different views ans extremes from both left and right, but oh no, were all the same.

"Under Mrs. Thatcher nobody got a free ride on the backs of hard working people and that is exactly what they cannot abide" - so all the bankers, futures traders, millionaire off shore account tax avoiders didn't.

What world do you live in?

Sorry, cat doffed and forelock tugged, my liege.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but when did you see anyone else celebrate a death in this utterly vile way? I am sorry if I generalise and I can well understand your embarrassment if you class yourself as a left winger. Maybe instead of shooting the messenger, you should have a word with those who have let your political class and this country down this week. Or do you agree with "Rejoice, Rejoice" headlines in the Morning Star and "burn in hells fires" diatribe from George Galloway?
And whilst you are accusing me of generalisation, you may want to rethink your last comment. So everyone who works in a bank is bad are they? And by the way, no need to doff your cap to me. In spite of many posts on here, not all those who could see the benefit of Mrs Thatchers politics come from down south. I am a good northern lad. My ex father-in-law was a miner. I can't say I really benefitted from Mrs. Thatchers policies, but I believe in voting for what is right for the country rather than what is right for me.


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## Sweep (Apr 14, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:





"Under Mrs. Thatcher nobody got a free ride on the backs of hard working people and that is exactly what they cannot abide" - so all the bankers, futures traders, millionaire off shore account tax avoiders didn't.

Click to expand...

I should also point out that under Mrs. Thatcher the bankers and futures traders didn't get a free ride. The "big bang" broke up the old boys network and brought competition into the market. Mrs. T also hated bale outs (remember British Steel, British Leyland?) and I don't think you would have seen a rescue for the banks under her. As for tax avoiders, when did they get a free ride under Mrs. T?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			Is it not the Police's job to maintain order?
		
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Yes, but they should be able to do their job without resorting to the need of out and out thuggery... Which, sadly, they seem incapable of doing...


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## Wildrover (Apr 14, 2013)

freddielong said:



			they have to agree she got the faulklands right.
		
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Even if you didn't!

Sorry I couldn't resist it, maybe she should have spent more on education.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 14, 2013)

My lasting memory of the Thatcher years was spending endless hours writing maintenance and service specs for a golf course, range and golf clubhouse to comply with 'competitive tendering'.
The fact that the golf courses were then making a Â£250k profit for my council on a Â£1.8 million turnover seemed not to matter.
There were loads of speculators making enquiries and desperate to take on the contract but we devised a cunning plan.
We were the first golf courses/range/clubhouse etc to gain the BS5750 Quality Management kite mark.
Bidders had to comply within one year of securing the bid.
Guess what .......no bidders.


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## Sweep (Apr 14, 2013)

From Yahoo News:
"Hundreds of people attended a "party" in central London celebrating Baroness Thatchers death..."
"Among the crowds was four-year-old Jack, who was stomping around shouting "Thatcher's dead, Thatcher's dead."
His father Howard Garrick from Islington, north London, said he was determined his son should come to the party"

I rest my case.


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## stevie_r (Apr 14, 2013)

Sweep said:



			From Yahoo News:
"Hundreds of people attended a "party" in central London celebrating Baroness Thatchers death..."
"Among the crowds was four-year-old Jack, who was stomping around shouting "Thatcher's dead, Thatcher's dead."
His father Howard Garrick from Islington, north London, said he was determined his son should come to the party"

I rest my case.
		
Click to expand...

We can only pray that Mr Garrick's son doesn't grow up to be as big a moron as his father, however, given parental influence that would seem unlikely.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 14, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Yes, but they should be able to do their job without resorting to the need of out and out thuggery... Which, sadly, they seem incapable of doing...
		
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You're faced with a rioting crowd - how would you deal with it then?

If you need any visual stimulation just watch any news channel and see the Newcastle idiots taking on Police horses.....


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2013)

AuburnWarrior said:



			You're faced with a rioting crowd - how would you deal with it then?
		
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Certainly not continued use of the baton to the back of the head when they have their 'man' turned or on the ground... And certainly not commit 'murder' of a bystander because they have had a long day "in the zone"...


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## USER1999 (Apr 14, 2013)

But then on the other side, some idiot threw a concrete block off an over pass onto a taxi, and killed the driver.

Idiots on both sides?


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 14, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			It genuinely saddens me to read posts like this.   How can people use such broad terms like North/South to categorise people in this country. 

I have met people from the four corners of this Earth and one thing I have learned is that the vast majority people on the planet are very similar, they get on with their day to day lives and do their best to put some bread on the table.   IMHO it is completely pointless to dwell on things that happened in the past, we cant change them and in general were not responsible for them.

How can anyone tar all in the South with the same brush, you would think that they are all Bankers with  big bonuses or city stockbrokers wheeling and dealing with others money.   Come and look around, you will see the same man on the street working his gonads off to look after his family, Mothers that are faced with the conflicting pressure of work and care for the children.

Magaret Thatcher is a person of the past, most wont even have experienced that era and will not be able to understand how the people on the street; North and South were carried along with no real influence on the politic.  Most what you call Southerners (what ever that means (maybe you could elaborate)) are getting on with their lives as best they can, how can you hold them responsible for the actions of politicians of almost 40 years past.

Move on and drop the bad blood, it is not real life or a way forward.
		
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Selective editting, perchance? You could have used the example of someone calling the left vile..............and more.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 14, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			IMO, that is the question that has kept - and will keep - economists and advisers in work for years!

And it's really all down to personal opinion - imo of course. And personal opinion also drives, and is driven by, political leaning/doctrine.

As for Lady Thatcher, I believe she has been both credited with and castigated for far more than she deserved. 

As an outside observer, I believe she was right for Britain - at the time. And remember that this was when Britain's industrial strength was demonstrated by the production of the might Morris Marina, the last (Austin) Princess, Triumph TR7 and Rover SD1!

The Poll Tax, though arguably a 'fairer' tax than the system it replaced, was a (predictable) disaster for her, though a triumph for protest and the legitimate swamping of incompetent bureaucracy!
		
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Maybe so, but no-one has still answered this question,really.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 14, 2013)

Sorry, but when did you see anyone else celebrate a death in this utterly vile way? I am sorry if I generalise and I can well understand your embarrassment if you class yourself as a left winger. Maybe instead of shooting the messenger, you should have a word with those who have let your political class and this country down this week. Or do you agree with "Rejoice, Rejoice" headlines in the Morning Star and "burn in hells fires" diatribe from George Galloway?
And whilst you are accusing me of generalisation, you may want to rethink your last comment. So everyone who works in a bank is bad are they? And by the way, no need to doff your cap to me. In spite of many posts on here, not all those who could see the benefit of Mrs Thatchers politics come from down south. I am a good northern lad. My ex father-in-law was a miner. I can't say I really benefitted from Mrs. Thatchers policies, but I believe in voting for what is right for the country rather than what is right for me.[/QUOTE]

If you bothered to read some of the posts properly, I have said on more that one occasion that I would never dance on someone's grave, and I don't agree with "celebrating" her demise. I do agree that she has a family and respect should be given to them.

However, she should not have a state/ceremonial funeral, neither should Blair. Only Churchill deserved this (a tory, and also a liberal, BTW). She also should not have her "legacies" whitewashed.

I am a left leaner, but my dad also taught me to think for myself, and whilst he has never crossed a picket line, and after spending a few years at fords in the 70's and the post office for 25 years, he was against a lot of the strikes.

I have admitted that a few of thatcher's policies i think were good, she was right to sink the "Belgrano". However, most right leaners on here are just major apologists, with just one saying that he was ardently against the poll tax, even though a tory.

Where is the balance from the apologists in this thread? No just a "well she got some things wrong", but what and how bad, firmly swept under the carpet.

When I said bankers, I meant the ones at the top, not the "workers". Read "the ascent of money" by Niall Ferguson, a very good read. But at the end of the day the top bankers took very large gambles, who is paying for it??????? I also blame the oil companies as well for what we are in, but they seem to get off scot-free.


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## Sweep (Apr 15, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Sorry, but when did you see anyone else celebrate a death in this utterly vile way? I am sorry if I generalise and I can well understand your embarrassment if you class yourself as a left winger. Maybe instead of shooting the messenger, you should have a word with those who have let your political class and this country down this week. Or do you agree with "Rejoice, Rejoice" headlines in the Morning Star and "burn in hells fires" diatribe from George Galloway?
And whilst you are accusing me of generalisation, you may want to rethink your last comment. So everyone who works in a bank is bad are they? And by the way, no need to doff your cap to me. In spite of many posts on here, not all those who could see the benefit of Mrs Thatchers politics come from down south. I am a good northern lad. My ex father-in-law was a miner. I can't say I really benefitted from Mrs. Thatchers policies, but I believe in voting for what is right for the country rather than what is right for me.
		
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If you bothered to read some of the posts properly, I have said on more that one occasion that I would never dance on someone's grave, and I don't agree with "celebrating" her demise. I do agree that she has a family and respect should be given to them.

However, she should not have a state/ceremonial funeral, neither should Blair. Only Churchill deserved this (a tory, and also a liberal, BTW). She also should not have her "legacies" whitewashed.

I am a left leaner, but my dad also taught me to think for myself, and whilst he has never crossed a picket line, and after spending a few years at fords in the 70's and the post office for 25 years, he was against a lot of the strikes.

I have admitted that a few of thatcher's policies i think were good, she was right to sink the "Belgrano". However, most right leaners on here are just major apologists, with just one saying that he was ardently against the poll tax, even though a tory.

Where is the balance from the apologists in this thread? No just a "well she got some things wrong", but what and how bad, firmly swept under the carpet.

When I said bankers, I meant the ones at the top, not the "workers". Read "the ascent of money" by Niall Ferguson, a very good read. But at the end of the day the top bankers took very large gambles, who is paying for it??????? I also blame the oil companies as well for what we are in, but they seem to get off scot-free.[/QUOTE]
I have bothered to read every post properly and I do know that you have made the point that you would not dance on anyone's grave or see a whitewash. I was not saying you were celebrating. I said the left had shown their true colours. In other words those that portray themselves as speaking for the left. If you read my post I said that this is not the working class I respect. I think those who are celebrating are from the left (why would anyone from the right celebrate?) and they are letting themselves, their ideology and our country down. These people, (Hatton, Galloway the leftwing press) claim they are speaking for you. If I was left leaning I would be pretty damed angry. If her funeral is held in a local parish church or she has the full honours it will be watched worldwide. These vile people will show our country in a very bad light to say the least. I am not happy about this. Are you?
Again if you have read my posts you will see that I am not a major apologist. I have pointed out what I consider to be the error of her ways ( lack of investment in areas where industry had closed for example). I am not going to be pushed into saying I was against the poll tax, because I wasn't. Please take the trouble to read my posts again on this. I don't want to repeat myself. I think I have provided a balanced view.
I am quite sure your dad taught you to think for yourself, as did mine. My point was that this cannot be the case with the majority of those who are celebrating. They are simply too young to know first hand and it is clear they have been given some misguided views. It is clear that Mrs. Thatcher has been a topic of hatred in many households over the past 23 years since she stepped down. See my post on the "party" in London. It shows bitterness and hatred to the degree that they have lost all moral judgement on decent human behaviour.
I think we all agree about the bankers at the top. However, this was not the fault of Mrs. Thatcher, nor indeed was any issue with the oil companies. If you get the chance try to watch "Hardtalk" on BBC catch up thingy with Morris Satchi. He describes very well how Mrs. Thatcher was horrified when he told her 12 months ago that 90% of all financial transactions are controlled by 5 banks. Mrs. Thatcher would never have allowed this.


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## JPH (Apr 15, 2013)

Well as an aside I won't dance on her grave , there's many in South America who will though 

Anyone's family who were "taken" by General Pinochet , whose tinpot regime was sold arms and supported by our own dear Maggie (a personal friend ) of the barbaric general


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## MegaSteve (Apr 15, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			But then on the other side, some idiot threw a concrete block off an over pass onto a taxi, and killed the driver.

Idiots on both sides?
		
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Yes...


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## Ethan (Apr 15, 2013)

Sweep said:



			I think we all agree about the bankers at the top. However, this was not the fault of Mrs. Thatcher, nor indeed was any issue with the oil companies. If you get the chance try to watch "Hardtalk" on BBC catch up thingy with Morris Satchi. He describes very well how Mrs. Thatcher was horrified when he told her 12 months ago that 90% of all financial transactions are controlled by 5 banks. Mrs. Thatcher would never have allowed this.
		
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Don't look at Maurice Saatchi for an honest appraisal. His advertising firm ran Maggie's campaign in 1979 and he has been a lifelong Tory. 

Maggie started the ball rolling towards deregulation in 1986 when she liberalised the financial services regime in the UK. Then the big US banks moved a lot of the stuff that US law prohibited over here, and it is here where these casino investments flourished. New Labour continued that process, for sure, but Maggie started it.

It was part of her fundamentalist ideology of deregulation and unfettered free markets. And what happens when you free the markets? The big beasts start to consume the small ones and you get a small number of players dominating. It was entirely foreseeable, and was foreseen, that a small number of banks would eventually dominate, and the problem of Too Big To Fail (TBTF) resulted.


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## Sweep (Apr 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Don't look at Maurice Saatchi for an honest appraisal. His advertising firm ran Maggie's campaign in 1979 and he has been a lifelong Tory. 

Maggie started the ball rolling towards deregulation in 1986 when she liberalised the financial services regime in the UK. Then the big US banks moved a lot of the stuff that US law prohibited over here, and it is here where these casino investments flourished. New Labour continued that process, for sure, but Maggie started it.

It was part of her fundamentalist ideology of deregulation and unfettered free markets. And what happens when you free the markets? The big beasts start to consume the small ones and you get a small number of players dominating. It was entirely foreseeable, and was foreseen, that a small number of banks would eventually dominate, and the problem of Too Big To Fail (TBTF) resulted.
		
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Hmmm, even Ed Balls admitted on Sky News following the budget that Labour had made major mistakes with the banks and failed to regulate them for the way the modern economy works. Also, it was the big American banks that failed first. In all honesty, I don't think we can blame Mrs. T for a banking crisis that happened 19 years after she left office. It is generally accepted now across the political spectrum that the "big bang" was the right move at the right time. It made London the financial capital of the world and broke up the old boys network. If it needed reigning in later then that was the responsibility of later governments.
As for Saatchi, I agree. He was the Conservative advertising campaign manager and that probably makes him a Tory. That doesn't mean we shouldn't take what he says at face value when he is speaking about his interaction with Mrs. T. The Hardtalk programme is designed to be a vigorous examination. I think he gave a good and actually understated account of himself and very much talked down Saatchi and Saatchi's involvement. When he spoke of his conversations with Mrs. T he gave an insight into the way she thought, which I found quite interesting.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 15, 2013)

Sweep said:



			As for Saatchi, I agree. He was the Conservative advertising campaign manager and that probably makes him a Tory.
		
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Fella... I really think you need take off your rose tinted glasses... Saatchi "probably a Tory" ...


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## Sweep (Apr 15, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Fella... I really think you need take off your rose tinted glasses... Saatchi "probably a Tory" ...
		
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OK! Saatchi is absolutely, definately 100% a Tory. No doubt, no question. It is now written in stone. As I said. "I agree". Does that mean we don't listen to him when he talks of his interaction with Mrs. T? I only said I found it interesting. For example, he said that Mrs. T saw more benefits than most in people owning their own homes. She thought (according to Saatchi, so it might be a lie) if you owned your own home you were more likely to look after it, mow the lawn, trim the hedge etc therefore cutting down on anti social behaviour. Something I had not considered. No-one is saying she was right (not even Saatchi actually) but that was the way she thought.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 15, 2013)

Sweep said:



			OK! Saatchi is absolutely, definately 100% a Tory.
		
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I'd put it nearer 110% myself ...

More seriously I did see the interview you talk of and yes it did give an insight into MaggieT's thinking on some of her policies... Also of interest was the relatively short interview of Lord McAlpine... Less interesting were the words of the buffoon that is Ken Clarke but I wouldn't expect any different...


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## Ethan (Apr 15, 2013)

Saatchi was Chairman of the Tories under IDS or Howard and now sits as a Tory in the House of Lords. No argument about his affiliations. 

On the subject of Thacher's economic policy, it is certainly true that Blair and Brown followed a lot of the same policies. One reason is that they were desperate to show themselves as a party of business, but also because there was little point in being a party of big industry when there isn't any of that left. It is also rather difficult, politically and legislatively, to undo a lot of deregulation, so even if you disagree, which Blair and Brown did not, it can be easier to let it run and try to change things at the margins. A lot of the changes to the NHS introduced less than 3 weeks ago to allow private companies to come in is considered by legal experts impossible to reverse. Oh, and Maggie started that ball rolling too, with the introduction of the purchaser/provider split in the 1980s.


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## 2blue (Apr 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Don't look at Maurice Saatchi for an honest appraisal. His advertising firm ran Maggie's campaign in 1979 and he has been a lifelong Tory. 

Maggie started the ball rolling towards deregulation in 1986 when she liberalised the financial services regime in the UK. Then the big US banks moved a lot of the stuff that US law prohibited over here, and it is here where these casino investments flourished. New Labour continued that process, for sure, but Maggie started it.

It was part of her fundamentalist ideology of deregulation and unfettered free markets. And what happens when you free the markets? The big beasts start to consume the small ones and you get a small number of players dominating. It was entirely foreseeable, and was foreseen, that a small number of banks would eventually dominate, and the problem of Too Big To Fail (TBTF) resulted.
		
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So true Ethan...  but Maggie lovers won't have it.


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## Sweep (Apr 15, 2013)

2blue said:



			So true Ethan... but Maggie lovers won't have it.
		
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While we are discussing interesting articles and Mrs. Thatchers economic policy, take a look at this
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/blame-margaret-thatcher-todays-problems-174519607.html


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 15, 2013)

Sweep said:



			While we are discussing interesting articles and Mrs. Thatchers economic policy, take a look at this
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/blame-margaret-thatcher-todays-problems-174519607.html

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The guy in the photo must be a champagne socialist as he can afford to drink Buckfast AND smoke


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 16, 2013)

Been away on holiday for a week and all I can say is thank god I missed all this


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## Dodger (Apr 16, 2013)

Heard a good one today.

Her funeral should have been privatised, put out to tender and awarded to the lowest bidder.

The fact Big Ben is being quietened is a total joke but somewhat Ironic given all the headlines of ding dong the witch is dead over the past week.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 16, 2013)

Is Rod Stewart singing Magie may at the funeral.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Heard a good one today.

Her funeral should have been privatised, put out to tender and awarded to the lowest bidder.

The fact Big Ben is being quietened is a total joke but somewhat Ironic given all the headlines of ding dong the witch is dead over the past week.
		
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Not very funny or clever, was it?


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## Dodger (Apr 16, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Not very funny or clever, was it?
		
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It raised a smile from me as I drove to work.

Humour,I like a bit of light hearted humour.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2013)

Dodger said:



			It raised a smile from me as I drove to work.

Humour,I like a bit of light hearted humour.
		
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Easily pleased.


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## Dodger (Apr 16, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Easily pleased.
		
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Yes and not easily upset by small comments.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Yes and not easily upset by small comments.
		
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Thats the nicest thing I have heard for ages.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 16, 2013)

Always look on the bright side of life . We all get there in the end. The ONLY thing in life that you HAVE to do is die . Cheer up and wait your turn.:smirk:


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## Sweep (Apr 16, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Heard a good one today.

Her funeral should have been privatised, put out to tender and awarded to the lowest bidder.
		
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Don't think we have any nationalised funeral directors, though I wouldn't put it past Labour in the 70's. I do remember us not being able to bury or cremate the dead under Labour in the winter of 1978 due to council workers being on strike. You remember. Just before Mrs. T came to power.


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## Shaunmg (Apr 17, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Don't think we have any nationalised funeral directors, though I wouldn't put it past Labour in the 70's. I do remember us not being able to bury or cremate the dead under Labour in the winter of 1978 due to council workers being on strike. You remember. Just before Mrs. T came to power.
		
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Yeah; I remember it well, it was about the same time the Industrial town in which I live actually had some industry.Including the pit I worked down. Where did that all go then ? :mmm:


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 17, 2013)

Well it would have been a Â£10.000,000 tender. 
I think that is a bit rich for the nation to pick up.
Where are the Tory donors when we really need them.

Just had this image of Group4 Staff lining the streets in florescent yellow vests.


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## Andy808 (Apr 17, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Always look on the bright side of life . We all get there in the end. The ONLY thing in life that you HAVE to do is die . Cheer up and wait your turn.:smirk:
		
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And pay taxes.


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## Shaunmg (Apr 17, 2013)

Just spent about 20mins looking back on many of the comments on this thread and where they come from. 
The opinions are typical of the divide Thatcher created. It seems the largest section of southerners are Thatcher idolisers and the largest section of northerners Thatcher haters.

It annoys me when accused of disrespecting the dead when the right wing and rags like the mail are shoving Thatcherâ€™s legacy and her canonisation of her down the throats of the millions who are suffering because of her legacy. She didnâ€™t save Britain; she saved the South of Britain and ruined the rest.

That is why the divide on this thread between north and south is so clear to see. Donâ€™t jump on this by saying Iâ€™m a northerner and love her, or visa versa, of course there are exceptions. The weight of opinion is clearly divided between north and south, on this thread alone

Her funeral is not just the funeral of an old lady (and I deplore the idiots dancing in the streets who were not even born at the time). But itâ€™s being hoisted as a no expense spared victory parade of the right wing, rubbing the noses in of those who have had lives and communities ruined by her legacy. This Â£10 million carnival is reprehensible to those people.  Old wounds are being re-opened by it.


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## 2blue (Apr 17, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			Just spent about 20mins looking back on many of the comments on this thread and where they come from. 
The opinions are typical of the divide Thatcher created. It seems the largest section of southerners are Thatcher idolisers and the largest section of northerners Thatcher haters.

It annoys me when accused of disrespecting the dead when the right wing and rags like the mail are shoving Thatcherâ€™s legacy and her canonisation of her down the throats of the millions who are suffering because of her legacy. She didnâ€™t save Britain; she saved the South of Britain and ruined the rest.

That is why the divide on this thread between north and south is so clear to see. Donâ€™t jump on this by saying Iâ€™m a northerner and love her, or visa versa, of course there are exceptions. The weight of opinion is clearly divided between north and south, on this thread alone

Her funeral is not just the funeral of an old lady (and I deplore the idiots dancing in the streets who were not even born at the time). But itâ€™s being hoisted as a no expense spared victory parade of the right wing, rubbing the noses in of those who have had lives and communities ruined by her legacy. This Â£10 million carnival is reprehensible to those people.  Old wounds are being re-opened by it.
		
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Here, here.....  we need say no more


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## Mungoscorner (Apr 17, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			Just spent about 20mins looking back on many of the comments on this thread and where they come from. 
The opinions are typical of the divide Thatcher created. It seems the largest section of southerners are Thatcher idolisers and the largest section of northerners Thatcher haters.

It annoys me when accused of disrespecting the dead when the right wing and rags like the mail are shoving Thatcherâ€™s legacy and her canonisation of her down the throats of the millions who are suffering because of her legacy. She didnâ€™t save Britain; she saved the South of Britain and ruined the rest.

That is why the divide on this thread between north and south is so clear to see. Donâ€™t jump on this by saying Iâ€™m a northerner and love her, or visa versa, of course there are exceptions. The weight of opinion is clearly divided between north and south, on this thread alone

Her funeral is not just the funeral of an old lady (and I deplore the idiots dancing in the streets who were not even born at the time). But itâ€™s being hoisted as a no expense spared victory parade of the right wing, rubbing the noses in of those who have had lives and communities ruined by her legacy. This Â£10 million carnival is reprehensible to those people.  Old wounds are being re-opened by it.
		
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+1:thup:


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## Sweep (Apr 17, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			Just spent about 20mins looking back on many of the comments on this thread and where they come from. 
The opinions are typical of the divide Thatcher created. It seems the largest section of southerners are Thatcher idolisers and the largest section of northerners Thatcher haters.

It annoys me when accused of disrespecting the dead when the right wing and rags like the mail are shoving Thatcherâ€™s legacy and her canonisation of her down the throats of the millions who are suffering because of her legacy. She didnâ€™t save Britain; she saved the South of Britain and ruined the rest.

That is why the divide on this thread between north and south is so clear to see. Donâ€™t jump on this by saying Iâ€™m a northerner and love her, or visa versa, of course there are exceptions. The weight of opinion is clearly divided between north and south, on this thread alone

Her funeral is not just the funeral of an old lady (and I deplore the idiots dancing in the streets who were not even born at the time). But itâ€™s being hoisted as a no expense spared victory parade of the right wing, rubbing the noses in of those who have had lives and communities ruined by her legacy. This Â£10 million carnival is reprehensible to those people.  Old wounds are being re-opened by it.
		
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I am a northerner and I love her  As has been reported many times over the past few days, this funeral was given the green light by Tony Blair when he was PM. It really depends on your perspective as to how you see it. I take the opinion that it is not about politics, it is about marking the passing of a great Briton. Whatever side of the political divide you stand on, I don't think anyone can deny that she was patriotic and always stood up for Britain. The only people who are being accused of disrespecting the dead are those who you deplore, not those who disagreed with her politics. The Â£10 million price tag is being disputed and I am very much against waste of taxpayers money. But let's just put that in perspective with just one example. Under the last Labour government Â£500 million pounds a year was spent on new office furniture for Whitehall alone. Â£500 million a year. Every year. That is the kind of out of control spending you get if you leave Labour in power for too long, so it's a bit rich for them to be saying this is an unacceptable waste of public money now.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 17, 2013)

Sweep said:



			I am a northerner and I love her 

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I am a southerner and didn't ...


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## 2blue (Apr 17, 2013)

Sweep said:



			I am a northerner and I love her  As has been reported many times over the past few days, this funeral was given the green light by Tony Blair when he was PM. It really depends on your perspective as to how you see it. I take the opinion that it is not about politics, it is about marking the passing of a great Briton. Whatever side of the political divide you stand on, I don't think anyone can deny that she was patriotic and always stood up for Britain. The only people who are being accused of disrespecting the dead are those who you deplore, not those who disagreed with her politics. The Â£10 million price tag is being disputed and I am very much against waste of taxpayers money. But let's just put that in perspective with just one example. Under the last Labour government Â£500 million pounds a year was spent on new office furniture for Whitehall alone. Â£500 million a year. Every year. That is the kind of out of control spending you get if you leave Labour in power for too long, so it's a bit rich for them to be saying this is an unacceptable waste of public money now.
		
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SWEEP... your love of her is as apparent as your misguidedness. 
You must be one of the few Northerners who escaped the damage she caused when in power and the pollution of her legacy OR you are just blinkered or a groomed Daily Mail reader.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2013)

Spoke with my mum earlier about this and she reminded me how my dad and her both disliked Maggie back then - as I did.  But she also said she hoped there would be no trouble at the funeral and rather wished they had not silenced Big Ben at 11am.  Why?  Not because Maggie didn't merit it - only because she didn't want trouble makers to have further cause to get even more upset and increase risk of trouble.  On that even my mother's very Tory mate agreed.

I'll note that Thatcher's legacy lives on with me.  You may say it is completely illogical, but even today I cannot vote Tory because of the deep and ingrained association in my mind between voting Tory and supporting Thatcher.  My parents were affected by Thatchers policies as everybody was, but not too badly.  However they knew and worked with many who's lives and families were seriously affected and damaged, and coming from poor backgrounds could empathise with them and where they could would try and help out even although we did not have much ourselves  They also HATED her aloof, hectoring and disregarding sounding nature given the suffering they saw around them and knew of.  

Maybe that's the difference between a Northern and a Southern view of Thatcher and her policies (massive generilisation coming up but more than a kernal of truth in it I believe) - we cared for those around us almost as much as we cared for ourselves.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Spoke with my mum earlier about this and she reminded me how my dad and her both disliked Maggie back then - as I did.  But she also said she hoped there would be no trouble at the funeral and rather wished they had not silenced Big Ben at 11am.  Why?  Not because Maggie didn't merit it - only because she didn't want trouble makers to have further cause to get even more upset and increase risk of trouble.  On that even my mother's very Tory mate agreed.

I'll note that Thatcher's legacy lives on with me.  You may say it is completely illogical, but even today I cannot vote Tory because of the deep and ingrained association in my mind between voting Tory and supporting Thatcher.  My parents were affected by Thatchers policies as everybody was, but not too badly.  However they knew and worked with many who's lives and families were seriously affected and damaged, and coming from poor backgrounds could empathise with them and where they could would try and help out even although we did not have much ourselves  They also HATED her aloof, hectoring and disregarding sounding nature given the suffering they saw around them and knew of.  

Maybe that's the difference between a Northern and a Southern view of Thatcher and her policies (massive generilisation coming up but more than a kernal of truth in it I believe) - we cared for those around us almost as much as we cared for ourselves.
		
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Another divisive post.   I wouldn't say many Northerners have chips on their shoulder, they have one on both shoulders.   I would like to hear people lay out what should have been done to pull this country out of the depth of despair and shame it had descended.   It was heading for the type of problems being seen in Greece and Cyprus with no bail out available.   Under Labour the pound had tumbled to an all time low against other currencies, inflation was soaring, the country crippled by strikes, we had to go to the IMF to bail us out, we were pouring money into a black hole of Nationalised industries.   OH Yes! it was bad but she took the tough decisions to drag us back and regain some respect in the world.  Alas you cant achieve that without casualties.


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## stevie_r (Apr 17, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Another divisive post.   I wouldn't say many Northerners have chips on their shoulder, they have one on both shoulders.   I would like to hear people lay out what should have been done to pull this country out of the depth of despair and shame it had descended.   It was heading for the type of problems being seen in Greece and Cyprus with no bail out available.   Under Labour the pound had tumbled to an all time low against other currencies, inflation was soaring, the country crippled by strikes, we had to go to the IMF to bail us out, we were pouring money into a black hole of Nationalised industries.   OH Yes! it was bad but she took the tough decisions to drag us back and regain some respect in the world.  Alas you cant achieve that without casualties.
		
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Succinctly and accurately put


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## Sweep (Apr 17, 2013)

2blue said:



			SWEEP... your love of her is as apparent as your misguidedness. 
You must be one of the few Northerners who escaped the damage she caused when in power and the pollution of her legacy OR you are just blinkered or a groomed Daily Mail reader.
		
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Never read the Daily Mail. Put it like this. Without the benefit of hindsight, who would you have voted for in 1979? Record unemployment, some of the highest inflation figures ever seen, UNELECTED union officials holding the country to ransom, rubbish uncollected, dead unburied, threats again of power cuts... I could go on. So, would you want more of the same or someone who is going to put the power back into the hands of the ELECTED? Mr. Callaghan was a fine man, but he had proved he couldn't handle the unions. I would suggest it was anyone who voted Labour in 1979 that was blinkered, not me. No-one has yet answered my questions from one of my (many) previous posts. Why don't you want people to own their own homes? Why don't you want hard working people to own shares? Why don't you want to reward those who are prepared to get off their backsides and go to work with lower taxes? What is it that you have against free enterprise? I have written on here about how I think she went wrong, but the balance of what she did and her legacy is massively in her favour.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Another divisive post.   I wouldn't say many Northerners have chips on their shoulder, they have one on both shoulders.   I would like to hear people lay out what should have been done to pull this country out of the depth of despair and shame it had descended.   It was heading for the type of problems being seen in Greece and Cyprus with no bail out available.   Under Labour the pound had tumbled to an all time low against other currencies, inflation was soaring, the country crippled by strikes, we had to go to the IMF to bail us out, we were pouring money into a black hole of Nationalised industries.   OH Yes! it was bad but she took the tough decisions to drag us back and regain some respect in the world.  Alas you cant achieve that without casualties.
		
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Why divisive? - all I've said is why my parents and I did not like what Thatcher did - simply stating facts about what our feelings were at the time and my feelings today.  Even if it is illogical to maintain such a link to the past in my mind that link is there.  And if our feelings back then outweighed the 'benefits' that would come from what she was pushing through - then they outweighed them.  I'm not today saying what she did was in the end right or wrong - but to us back then - it was deeply damaging and hurtful to those affected.  It's very easy to tell someone to take the medicine as it is for the best if you do not have to suffer the bad taste of the medecine yourself.

If the way that we thought back then was not common down south - and the feeling I have even today is not common down here in Surrey where I live - then maybe that is indicative of a divided country then and maybe also today - not me being divisive.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why divisive? - all I've said is why my parents and I did not like what Thatcher did - simply stating facts about what our feelings were at the time and my feelings today.  Even if it is illogical to maintain such a link to the past in my mind that link is there.  And if our feelings back then outweighed the 'benefits' that would come from what she was pushing through - then they outweighed them.  I'm not today saying what she did was in the end right or wrong - but to us back then - it was deeply damaging and hurtful to those affected.  It's very easy to tell someone to take the medicine as it is for the best if you do not have to suffer the bad taste of the medecine yourself.

If the way that we thought back then was not common down south - and the feeling I have even today is not common down here in Surrey where I live - then maybe that is indicative of a divided country then and maybe also today - not me being divisive.
		
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Its divisive due to you creating divisions.  Divisions between ordinary working people North and South which is a vague description anyway.  Ever heard of the Midlands, South, South West, are they all Southerners and tarred with the same brush?    All the man in the street (North, South, East and West) could do was vote at an election and the majority voted Conservative during her term.  Do you think it was only people in the North that were effected?  What about the Car Industry in the Midlands, the Coal Industry in the Midlands and South Wales, the Steel Industry in Wales, etc etc.

I think you are blinkered by blind prejudice and misinformation.   Just because Parliament is in London it doesn't mean everyone south of Sheffield had it easy during this time of financial realignment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 17, 2013)

Socket 
Fine words, perhaps you can no tell us now why they have a 'London Weighting'.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 17, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Socket 
Fine words, perhaps you can no tell us now why they have a 'London Weighting'.
		
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Simple - my Wife works in London and pays Â£3.85 for a sandwich from Eat.  She recently spent a week in Liverpool city centre where the same sandwich from the same vendor was Â£3.  Hence London Weighting.

Are golf clubs cheaper outside London? :rofl:


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Socket 
Fine words, perhaps you can no tell us now why they have a 'London Weighting'.
		
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London Weighting's been around since the 1920's.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 17, 2013)

That is not an explanation. I can buy a Â£4 sandwich in Edinburgh.

When my daughter went to work in the City and live in Fulham in the 1990's she took us out for a meal and tipped the waitress a tenner. When I said that was mad her explanation was 'that's how London works Dad'.


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## AuburnWarrior (Apr 17, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is not an explanation. I can buy a Â£4 sandwich in Edinburgh.

When my daughter went to work in the City and live in Fulham in the 1990's she took us out for a meal and tipped the waitress a tenner. When I said that was mad her explanation was 'that's how London works Dad'.
		
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It was rather a tongue in cheek explanation....

I guess you'd need to ask an economic historian.


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## USER1999 (Apr 17, 2013)

Is London weighting not due to accommodation costs, which can be ridiculous in the London area, and don't improve that much when you get into the stupidly big commuter belt, where rail fares into town are heinously expensive?


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## Phil2511 (Apr 17, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Is London weighting not due to accommodation costs, which can be ridiculous in the London area, and don't improve that much when you get into the stupidly big commuter belt, where rail fares into town are heinously expensive?
		
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A mate of mine is living in London and his 3 bed apartment costs Â£2,500 a month. In a reasonable area, but not swanky. The same apartment here would be Â£500 and in Belfast be very maximum Â£800-Â£1,000.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Socket 
Fine words, perhaps you can no tell us now why they have a 'London Weighting'.
		
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Please can you explain to me the relevance of London Weighting to my post?   We all know that the cost of living is more in London ;but , I am struggling to see what that has to do with my points on the divisive attitude of the post by SwingsitlikeHogan (and others) that have foggy and prejudiced views on how people from other regions were somehow not affected by the politic of the time in question.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 17, 2013)

London finance is all about property values, take the property values away and what do you have.
Why should UK resourses be ploughed into one specific area just to prop up house prices.
If people cannot afford to live there the jobs will soon move to another city.


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## USER1999 (Apr 17, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			London finance is all about property values, take the property values away and what do you have.
Why should UK resourses be ploughed into one specific area just to prop up house prices.
If people cannot afford to live there the jobs will soon move to another city.
		
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It's not about propping up house values, but about paying the people who need to work there a wage that is liveable on. Regardless of how many bankers, civil servants and millionaires live there, they still need teachers, ambulance drivers, firemen, policemen, street sweepers, bin men, etc. London weighting lifts the salaries of the necessary people just about enough to continue to stay there.


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## Neddy (Apr 17, 2013)

The North hates Thatcher/The South loves her argument is really really really.....stupid.

Look at any election map in the last 30 years. Millions of people north of the Watford gap vote Conservative


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 17, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Its divisive due to you creating divisions.  Divisions between ordinary working people North and South which is a vague description anyway.  Ever heard of the Midlands, South, South West, are they all Southerners and tarred with the same brush?    All the man in the street (North, South, East and West) could do was vote at an election and the majority voted Conservative during her term.  Do you think it was only people in the North that were effected?  What about the Car Industry in the Midlands, the Coal Industry in the Midlands and South Wales, the Steel Industry in Wales, etc etc.

I think you are blinkered by blind prejudice and misinformation.   Just because Parliament is in London it doesn't mean everyone south of Sheffield had it easy during this time of financial realignment.
		
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2 things - the majority didn't vote for her, but due to the FPTP nature of British politics, that equates to more seats in the HOC. She was also responsible for "creative" boundary changes.

I notice all your examples are unemployment situations that are still north of Watford. Just face it Winston Churchill unified a nation (and nations), Thatcher has divided them more than any other PM. Both were tories, so political affiliation doesn't matter.

Surely you can see that she divided a nation more than anyone since Cromwell/Charles II times. Not only geographically, but across class lines in the main.


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## Neddy (Apr 17, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			2 things - the majority didn't vote for her, but due to the FPTP nature of British politics, that equates to more seats in the HOC. She was also responsible for "creative" boundary changes.

I notice all your examples are unemployment situations that are still north of Watford.
		
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Point 1/ That can be said of almost every prime minister we've ever had

Point 2/ 80% of the British Isles (or more) is north of Watford.

Thatcher made many mistakes but lots of people, particularly in the mining communities, seem to think that everything was fine and dandy before bad old Maggie came along and ruined it. It's like she's been turned into some kind of cartoon villain.

PS....Class division has always existed, and to a certain extent always will.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 17, 2013)

Neddy said:



			Point 1/ That can be said of almost every prime minister we've ever had

Point 2/ 80% of the British Isles (or more) is north of Watford.

Thatcher made many mistakes but lots of people, particularly in the mining communities, seem to think that everything was fine and dandy before bad old Maggie came along and ruined it. It's like she's been turned into some kind of cartoon villain.

PS....Class division has always existed, and to a certain extent always will.
		
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1. I'm not saying it hasn't been the case, just that the other poster said the majority voted for her - they didn't.

2. 80% - maybe geographically, but not population wise. Unless the rivers, forests and stones voted for maggie also - damn them.


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## Sweep (Apr 17, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			2 things - the majority didn't vote for her, but due to the FPTP nature of British politics, that equates to more seats in the HOC. She was also responsible for "creative" boundary changes.

I notice all your examples are unemployment situations that are still north of Watford. Just face it Winston Churchill unified a nation (and nations), Thatcher has divided them more than any other PM. Both were tories, so political affiliation doesn't matter.

Surely you can see that she divided a nation more than anyone since Cromwell/Charles II times. Not only geographically, but across class lines in the main.
		
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Manufacturing industries were in decline in the 1970's and not just under the Tories. As I have said on here before, more pits closed under Harold Wilson than Mrs. Thatcher. The textile industry was decimated under Labour when they allowed Far East imports with no tariffs, but we all still want our cheap clothes. There isn't much manufacturing in the centre of London and most is north of Watford. The unemployment from the decline of manufacturing was always going to impact more north of Watford. By the time Mrs. T came to power we were used to it. We were the sick man of Europe because there were no customers for our outdated and over expensive products. The manufacturing that made losses were, in the main, nationalised to preserve jobs in the late 1960's and the taxpayer was paying to keep industry alive that couldn't compete - British Steel was losing Â£1 million a day in 1978. 
As for creative boundary changes, that was one policy Tony Blair did reverse. Big style.
I can see that she divided a nation. But I do think the north / south thing is greatly exaggerated. I am not sure why Winston Churchill comes into this, but interestingly he does crop up in discussions about Margaret Thatcher. Maybe because they were both quintessentially British. I take your point that Mr. Churchill unified a nation in a way that Mrs. T didn't and in my mind Churchill was the greatest Briton that ever lived. But we were at war. People unify against a common enemy and it is worth remembering that Churchill lost the 1945 General Election to a landslide, within weeks of the end of the war. When asked about his defeat, to his eternal credit Churchill just replied " Well, they have had a hard time".


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## Sweep (Apr 17, 2013)

Neddy said:



			Point 1/ That can be said of almost every prime minister we've ever had

Point 2/ 80% of the British Isles (or more) is north of Watford.

Thatcher made many mistakes but lots of people, particularly in the mining communities, seem to think that everything was fine and dandy before bad old Maggie came along and ruined it. It's like she's been turned into some kind of cartoon villain.

PS....Class division has always existed, and to a certain extent always will.
		
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Just what I was trying to say. In a lot fewer words


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## Sweep (Apr 17, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			stones voted for maggie
		
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I would never had Jagger down as a Thatcherite.


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## 2blue (Apr 18, 2013)

Sweep......  tell me....  have you ever spent time in the North? Details please!!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2013)

IF northerners in general feel differently than southerners about Thatcher and what she eschewed and had done, then either they have good reason to; they have chips on their shoulders, or perhaps they think differently about those around themselves who suffered badly when they may not have.

Living in Surrey with a wife from Derbyshire WE certainly notice the difference in attitude, values and what is important in life down here than from where we are from - and we will move back up north in time as in we don't really like it - nice as oit is down here it doesn't sit easy with us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			It's not about propping up house values, but about paying the people who need to work there a wage that is liveable on. Regardless of how many bankers, civil servants and millionaires live there, they still need teachers, ambulance drivers, firemen, policemen, street sweepers, bin men, etc. London weighting lifts the salaries of the necessary people just about enough to continue to stay there.
		
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Which begs the question. Why should the rest of the UK prop up London?


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## USER1999 (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Which begs the question. Why should the rest of the UK prop up London?
		
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I think you'll find London props up most of the uk. Inside the m25 we'd happily devolve from the uk!


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## DCB (Apr 18, 2013)

Could someone explain where the North starts and where the South ends please ?  I've never understood that imaginary demarcation line that seems to be drawn somewhere across England.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Which begs the question. Why should the rest of the UK prop up London?
		
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I think people in Scotland have been proped up quite nicely by England in recent years.  We dont have free Tuition Fees and medication, how do you think your local Government affords it?


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## DCB (Apr 18, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			how do you think your local Government affords it?
		
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They can't and it'll come back to bite us on the bum in years to come. Hopefully then someone with a bit more foresight than King Eck will be running the place


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2013)

DCB said:



			Could someone explain where the North starts and where the South ends please ?  I've never understood that imaginary demarcation line that seems to be drawn somewhere across England.
		
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Good point.   I mentioned this in an earlier post, do the Midlands, the South West, Wales qualify.  Or is it a divisive statement to only apply to the South East.   Try telling a farm worker in Herefordshire that they are well paid.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			IF northerners in general feel differently than southerners about Thatcher and what she eschewed and had done, then either they have good reason to; they have chips on their shoulders, or perhaps they think differently about those around themselves who suffered badly when they may not have.

Living in Surrey with a wife from Derbyshire WE certainly notice the difference in attitude, values and what is important in life down here than from where we are from - and we will move back up north in time as in we don't really like it - nice as oit is down here it doesn't sit easy with us.
		
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Sounds like you are a hoot of a neighbour.  Somehow I think that if you moved North you would still not like the people around you.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			1. I'm not saying it hasn't been the case, just that the other poster said the majority voted for her - they didn't.

2. 80% - maybe geographically, but not population wise. Unless the rivers, forests and stones voted for maggie also - damn them.
		
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Why play around with semantics, the conservatives had more votes in each electorial district than any other candidate.  You know well thats what I meant.

Most of the Midlands and South West is Conservative and would not be considered as 'Northerners', what's that to do with the Watford gap.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I think you'll find London props up most of the uk. Inside the m25 we'd happily devolve from the uk!
		
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So if you are so successful why the need for London weighting.
Seems to be a question you are all dodging.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So if you are so successful why the need for London weighting.
Seems to be a question you are all dodging.
		
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On the contrary!   It seems you are ignoring the answers.


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## Sweep (Apr 18, 2013)

2blue said:



			Sweep......  tell me....  have you ever spent time in the North? Details please!!!!!
		
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Well, if you want my life history...
I was born in Lancashire and I have never lived any more than 7 miles from where I was born. So, apart from going on holiday or away for my job then yes, I have spent time in the north, like EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE. To assume or argue that everyone from the north is anti Thatcher and everyone from the south is pro Thatcher is just plain nonsense and in my view a pointless argument. She won 3 elections and the last one was 26 years ago. If you haven't got over it yet, you need to. We should not forget that many cities other than London boomed under Thatcher. Basically where service industries were located. Places like Liverpool or Barnsley will never vote Conservative, but to tar everyone from the north with the same brush is ridiculous and quite honestly ignores history.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

To allow police and teachers etc to buy houses..........that is not an answer.
The City should build housing blocks to rent to the public servants. If London weighting was abolished the artificially high prices for housing would drop and the teachers /police etc would then be able to afford to buy.


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## stevie_r (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To allow police and teachers etc to buy houses..........that is not an answer.
The City should build housing blocks to rent to the public servants. *If London weighting was abolished the artificially high prices for housing would drop* and the teachers /police etc would then be able to afford to buy.
		
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Utter rubbish


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Utter rubbish
		
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Even utterer rubbish


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## MarkA (Apr 18, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I think you'll find London props up most of the uk. Inside the m25 we'd happily devolve from the uk!
		
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To be honest with pathetic comments like that we'd probably all be happy to see you go!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2013)

I think this thread has run it's course a few times over now and has become a Northerner v Southerner handbag fight.   Probably worth closing it down before someone starts throwing flat caps and bowlers or letting the Staffies loose on someone.


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## stevie_r (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Even utterer rubbish
		
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So London house prices are down to the fact that SOME London residents get a weighting allowance in their salary?  Are you sniffing brasso?


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## Snelly (Apr 18, 2013)

MarkA said:



			To be honest with pathetic comments like that we'd probably all be happy to see you go!
		
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I m a proud Yorkshireman and grew up in the North. Loved it, loved the people and the attitude to life.  Since then, I have lived in Manchester, then Yorkshire again then various places in the South East - mostly Surrey, London, Hampshire and now Sussex.

I am then, probably better qualified than most of the Northern Monkeys on this forum to put forward a valid opinion on the differences between the North and South.  Basically, there are nice places and not so nice places in both and the same goes for the people.

Which is best?  The south. By miles.  It really is grim up North.  Sussex by the sea every time, as long as you have a few bob that is.  Better in almost every way.  And I am saying this as someone who loves the North too.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			London finance is all about property values, take the property values away and what do you have.
Why should UK resourses be ploughed into one specific area just to prop up house prices.
*If people cannot afford to live there the jobs will soon move to another city.*

Click to expand...


Historically this has never really happened...


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 18, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I m a proud Yorkshireman and grew up in the North. Loved it, loved the people and the attitude to life.  Since then, I have lived in Manchester, then Yorkshire again then various places in the South East - mostly Surrey, London, Hampshire and now Sussex.

I am then, probably better qualified than most of the Northern Monkeys on this forum to put forward a valid opinion on the differences between the North and South.  Basically, there are nice places and not so nice places in both and the same goes for the people.

Which is best?  The south. By miles.  It really is grim up North.  Sussex by the sea every time, as long as you have a few bob that is.  Better in almost every way.  And I am saying this as someone who loves the North too.
		
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If you give an infintesimal amount of northern monkeys an infintesimal amount of typewriters, they would eventually type out the whole works of Shakespeare. 

However, we would never be able to get across to some of the  rose-tinted southerners why Thatcher was bad for us enough though. Maybe it's the chip on our shoulders, affecting our typing.


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## Val (Apr 18, 2013)

Snelly said:



			Which is best?  The south. By miles.  It really is grim up North.  Sussex by the sea every time, as long as you have a few bob that is.  Better in almost every way.  And I am saying this as someone who loves the North too.
		
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Nice part of the UK thats for sure but and its a big but at that...............

.......................................it does have a place frequented by many brits looking for a beach and sun with the worst sounding name you could come up with

Bognor Regis.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			So London house prices are down to the fact that SOME London residents get a weighting allowance in their salary?  Are you sniffing brasso?
		
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I think you will find that it is a pretty big SOME.
What percentage of Londoners work in public service?
There must be half a million social workers to start with!


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## stevie_r (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you will find that it is a pretty big SOME.
*What percentage of Londoners work in public service?*
There must be half a million social workers to start with!
		
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You tell us, it's your theory.

Cut London weighting to nothing tomorrow, it won't affect housing prices this year or the next, it would however mean a total absence of anyone willing to provide essential services.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

Tell me if I have this wrong.

The way I see it is, the rest of the UK pay money to support the poor of London to provide essential services for the rich of London.


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2013)

Is this a 10 year debate or is it going to last the full 30.........

What has London Weighting got to do with the death of Thatcher?
Pages and pages of Anti-North/Anti-South/Anti-Anywhereinthemiddle argument about something that happened 30 years ago.....
Whether it was good, bad or indifferent, it happened.

Nobody from one side is going to change the mind of another on this topic.


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## stevie_r (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tell me if I have this wrong.

The way I see it is, the rest of the UK pay money to support the poor of London to provide essential services for the rich of London.
		
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But I presume you have no problem with people in London paying tax to help pay the benefits of the unemployed in Ayrshire?
You really don't get this concept of nationhood do you?


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## Sweep (Apr 18, 2013)

Seriously guys, this is becoming laughable. There are great parts of the south and the north. It is actually one country. Now I am reading that London should be independent and that public sector workers in London shouldn't be _allowed_ to buy houses and London should build flats for them to rent!
Firstly, on independence for London. It's OK to say that now, but just think where London got its wealth from. The Industrial Revolution, which happened up north. Londoners were the merchants and the north were the manufacturers. It didn't matter. We were all one country. To suggest London should be independent now is simply ridiculous and actually an insult to the rest of the UK. As is calling people from the north monkeys. Where did that come from???
Secondly, on London Weighting. Is this a serious suggestion to not allow public sector workers to buy a house in London? Guess what? If they can't buy a house they won't live there or work there. And then, guess what. The market price for those jobs in London that they won't do will go up and that means that the cost will rise until we are paying the same if not more than London Weighting. And the city is supposed to build them all flats? What, like Moscow? Seriously, the argument for communism was lost in 1989, thanks to people like Margaret Thatcher (whoops, back on topic)


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			But I presume you have no problem with people in London paying tax to help pay the benefits of the unemployed in Ayrshire?
You really don't get this concept of nationhood do you?
		
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I think the people of Ayrshire pay taxes to help the London unemployed as well
I just find it strange that only London has this benefit and not Bristol, Aberdeen, Manchester, Cardiff etc.
Is that 'nationhood'


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## Cherry13 (Apr 18, 2013)

Snelly said:



			Which is best?  The south. By miles.  It really is grim up North.  Sussex by the sea every time, as long as you have a few bob that is.  Better in almost every way.  And I am saying this as someone who loves the North too.
		
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Hahaha, your right, it really is.  I for one don't even have basic essentials such as the internet.  I have to use witch craft and sorcery to post on this magical enlightened forum, with all you mystical creatures from the  the place known as "doon sooth". Is it true you have running water?? 

Apparantly, we have an incredible coastline which for many many miles is completely unspoilt, also we have some of the nicest castles and priorys on the coast. Naturally though as a northerner I have never ventured there as its too far for my donkey.


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## stevie_r (Apr 18, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the people of Ayrshire pay taxes to help the London unemployed as well
I just find it strange that only London has this benefit and not Bristol, Aberdeen, Manchester, Cardiff etc.
Is that 'nationhood'
		
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Are you just being ridiculously difficult or is it just more of  your all too frequent anti English trolling crap?

It's really simple, you can't stop London weighting, it wouldn't dramatically drop housing prices.  Do you need me to draw you a picture?


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2013)

I'm still trying to work out a connection between LW and the Magthatch.......apart from they arrived on the scene at a similar time ie the second decade of the twentieth century.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Are you just being ridiculously difficult or is it just more of  your all too frequent anti English trolling crap?

It's really simple, you can't stop London weighting, it wouldn't dramatically drop housing prices.  Do you need me to draw you a picture?
		
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Please do, I would be interested to know.


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## Slime (Apr 18, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Is this a 10 year debate or is it going to last the full 30.........

What has London Weighting got to do with the death of Thatcher?
Pages and pages of Anti-North/Anti-South/Anti-Anywhereinthemiddle argument about something that happened 30 years ago.....
Whether it was good, bad or indifferent, it happened.
Nobody from one side is going to change the mind of another on this topic.
		
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+lots.  Really, this is now quite comical and just a tad off topic.
Please continue though, I'm very much enjoying it.

*Slime*.

P.S. *EXACTLY *where is this mythical North/South divide.


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## USER1999 (Apr 18, 2013)

I do wonder sometimes how people can take any of my posts seriously? I've been on here, posting rubbish for long enough? Surely I lost any credibility ages ago?


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## stevie_r (Apr 18, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I m a proud Yorkshireman and grew up in the North. Loved it, loved the people and the attitude to life.  Since then, I have lived in Manchester, then Yorkshire again then various places in the South East - mostly Surrey, London, Hampshire and now Sussex.

I am then, probably better qualified than most of the Northern Monkeys on this forum to put forward a valid opinion on the differences between the North and South.  Basically, there are nice places and not so nice places in both and the same goes for the people.

Which is best?  The south. By miles.  It really is grim up North.  Sussex by the sea every time, as long as you have a few bob that is.  Better in almost every way.  And I am saying this as someone who loves the North too.
		
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I am originally from the black country but wouldn't go back there to live.
I have spent plenty of time in Yorkshire.  South Yorks - No thanks.  N Yorks - not a bad place.
Have spent far too much time living down south (various bland counties) and wouldn't wish to live there again, that includes London.

More than happy where I am now thanks.


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## PieMan (Apr 18, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I do wonder sometimes how people can take any of my posts seriously? I've been on here, posting rubbish for long enough? Surely I lost any credibility ages ago?
		
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If it makes you feel better, I don't take any of your posts seriously!


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## USER1999 (Apr 18, 2013)

PieMan said:



			If it makes you feel better, I don't take any of your posts seriously!
		
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Some people do! Worrying.


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I do wonder sometimes how people can take any of my posts seriously? I've been on here, posting rubbish for long enough? Surely I lost any credibility ages ago?
		
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Not entirely convinced you had any to start with but then what would I know........:cheers:


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## MarkA (Apr 18, 2013)

Look, we Northerners watch 'The Only Way is Essex' so we know what its like down South


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2013)

So I guess people in the Midlands wear Flat Caps, have a Staffie on a piece of rope and a Rolex?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Sounds like you are a hoot of a neighbour.  Somehow I think that if you moved North you would still not like the people around you.
		
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Haved you ever TRIED living in Surrey?  I have - for 17 years.  Oh yes - it's a hoot living here - a very bitchy and expensive hoot...


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## In_The_Rough (Apr 18, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			So I guess people in the Midlands wear Flat Caps, have a Staffie on a piece of rope and a Rolex?
		
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I'm from the Midlands and the answer is no to all of the above


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Haved you ever TRIED living in Surrey?  I have - for 17 years.  Oh yes - it's a hoot living here - a very bitchy and expensive hoot...
		
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I lived in Surrey for 10 years.
My memories were of lots of people getting on trains and treadmills with their heads down trying to earn enough to pay their over-inflated mortgages. Oh and lots of burglars and thieves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I lived in Surrey for 10 years.
My memories were of lots of people getting on trains and treadmills with their heads down trying to earn enough to pay their over-inflated mortgages. Oh and lots of burglars and thieves.
		
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Aye mate - that's the day-to-day grind for many


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2013)

Slime said:



*Slime*.

P.S. *EXACTLY *where is this mythical North/South divide.
		
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About seven miles north of where I reside ...


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## Slime (Apr 19, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			About seven miles north of where I reside ...
		
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That makes you a southerner then, thanks* MegaSteve*, :thup:

*Slime*.


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