# Rules - Declaring a ball lost



## NervousShankaholic (Mar 1, 2012)

Theoretical question although situation must happen a lot.
Par 3, i hit my tee shot and it takes one bounce and ends up in thick 'whins' (gorse bush).
I elect to hit a 'provisional ball' and put it to 10 inches.
Question is can i declare my first ball lost and not bother looking for it and accept a tap in 4 or do i have to run the risk of finding my original ball,try to get a lie under penalty or reload again and may have to settle for higher score than a 4.


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## freddielong (Mar 1, 2012)

you can not look for it yes, but you cannot declare it lost if you were playing match play your opponent could look for it find it and you would have to play it


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## bobmac (Mar 1, 2012)

If you have declared a provisional, you have a choice. 
Walk up and tap in for your 4 or go and look for your first ball.
If you OR YOUR OPPOSITION find it you must pick up your provisional and the first ball is in play.
If you decide to hole out but your opposition find your first ball before you do so, again, the first ball must be played and prov picked up.
You cannot just say, the first ball is lost, I'm playing the second.


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## In_The_Rough (Mar 1, 2012)

I think you can just leave the ball and not bother looking for it. However if you playing partners or a spectator finds the ball within 5 minutes of them starting the search you must play the original ball. However if you get onto the green and tap in the put before the original ball is found then the provisional ball counts. I think this is correct stand corrected if it isn't though


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 1, 2012)

You can't declare it lost. You don't have to look for it but if your partner thinks he's found it you can't refuse to identify it and if it yours it has to be played. Best to try and get up to the green and hole the provisional before anyone can find the first one


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## sawtooth (Mar 1, 2012)

Yes you can but dont declare it as a provisional ball. It will automatically be 3 off the tee and the original is then out of play because you played another without declaring it a provisional ball.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 1, 2012)

freddielong said:



			you can not look for it yes, but you cannot declare it lost if you were playing match play your opponent could look for it find it and you would have to play it
		
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This, although it isn't just matchplay when your opponent could look for and find your ball. There are certain situations that would make the original ball lost. Amongst the, not declaring the second tee shot a provisional, Playing a shot with you provisional from a point beyond where you believe the original would be and not finding the ball after 5 minutes of looking.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 1, 2012)

as freddielong says

basically it becomes lost once 5 mins have passed without you finding it, or you play your provisional from a position nearer the hole ie you putt!

if your fellow competitor, or opponent, finds your ball before the above then you are required to identify it, and if it's yours the provisional ball is out of play.


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## bobmac (Mar 1, 2012)

The only problem is you can't play out of turn


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## NervousShankaholic (Mar 1, 2012)

ok so scenario could be...find ball in the gorse, unable to get relief with 2 club lengths or line of sight with the pin due to OB or continuation of gorse on that side...so would discard provisional and walk back to the tee and be playing 3rd shot again...is this correct


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## bobmac (Mar 1, 2012)

NervousShankaholic said:



			ok so scenario could be...find ball in the gorse, unable to get relief with 2 club lengths or line of sight with the pin due to OB or continuation of gorse on that side...so would discard provisional and walk back to the tee and be playing 3rd shot again...is this correct
		
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Yes


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## BTatHome (Mar 1, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			Yes you can but dont declare it as a provisional ball. It will automatically be 3 off the tee and the original is then out of play because you played another without declaring it a provisional ball.
		
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Good answer, but not to the question/scenario asked


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 1, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The only problem is you can't play out of turn  

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Pulling our legs again Bob! 

Decsion 27-2b/1 Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball


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## NervousShankaholic (Mar 1, 2012)

sawtooth must be correct if you dont declare it as a provisional your first ball is out of play , but you run the risk of doing the same thing again



BTatHome said:



			Good answer, but not to the question/scenario asked 

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## sawtooth (Mar 1, 2012)

NervousShankaholic said:



			ok so scenario could be...find ball in the gorse, unable to get relief with 2 club lengths or line of sight with the pin due to OB or continuation of gorse on that side...so would discard provisional and walk back to the tee and be playing 3rd shot again...is this correct
		
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Perfectly OK. You can always go back to play your shot again from where it was played under the penalty of 1 stroke. But as you say you have to discard the provisional and hit another ball, this time your 3rd shot proper.

I still think best thing to do if you put your first in the middle of gorse is to then wait for everybody else to tee off and then play again from the tee. This is your 3rd shot just dont declare it a provisional.

Alternatively declare a provisional but then rush up to play it again before your opponent has had a chance to find it (if he is that way inclined) . Under matchplay he can ask you to replay your shot but that doesnt change things with the lost ball. Your original will be discarded because you've played your 4th shot with your provisional already (albeit out of turn).

I think this is OK.


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## rosecott (Mar 1, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The only problem is you can't play out of turn  

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But no penalty in strokeplay.


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## Pants (Mar 1, 2012)

Mashie.

You're not the real Barry Rhodes are you?


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## Smiffy (Mar 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The only problem is you can't play out of turn  

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What about if your 2nd tee shot went in the hole? 
Ray Taylor did this at Royal Cinque Ports. Hit his 1st miles left into deep rough, played a "provisional" and canned it for a 3.


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## Pants (Mar 2, 2012)

The provisional becomes the ball in play once it is lifted out of the hole by the player provided the original ball hasn't been found within the allowed 5 minutes for searching.


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2012)

So what happens in match play if you rush down and tap in for your 4 and your opponent is 30 feet away but is looking for your ball..and then finds it after you've holed out out of turn?


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## Smiffy (Mar 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			So what happens in match play if you rush down and tap in for your 4 and your opponent is 30 feet away but is looking for your ball..and then finds it after you've holed out out of turn?
		
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Your opponent gets a 4 iron embedded in the side of their skull?


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			Your opponent gets a 4 iron embedded in the side of their skull?
		
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Haven't you got any dodgy motors to sell geezer?


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			So what happens in match play if you rush down and tap in for your 4 and your opponent is 30 feet away but is looking for your ball..and then finds it after you've holed out out of turn?
		
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sawtooth said:



			Alternatively declare a provisional but then rush up to play it again before your opponent has had a chance to find it (if he is that way inclined) . Under matchplay he can ask you to replay your shot but that doesnt change things with the lost ball. Your original will be discarded because you've played your 4th shot with your provisional already (albeit out of turn).

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Wot he said.

Decision 27-2b/1 Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball.

Who is Barry Rhodes by the way? Is he a golfer?


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			Decision 27-2b/1 Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball.
		
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Didn't know that. 
Thought he would have to wait till it was his turn. 
Daft rule that imo.
Ta


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Didn't know that. 
Thought he would have to wait till it was his turn. 
Daft rule that imo.
Ta
		
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I agree that is a bit counter intuitive.  One or two like that. Take this one for instance

27-2b/4 Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found 

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=8018568E-8596-4259-AD1E-A686722D4FC6

Talk about taking a literal interpretation of the Rules. How many people would guess that was the answer?


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			I agree that is a bit counter intuitive.  One or two like that. Take this one for instance

27-2b/4 Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found 

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=8018568E-8596-4259-AD1E-A686722D4FC6

Talk about taking a literal interpretation of the Rules. How many people would guess that was the answer?
		
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A guy I know did something similar at Q school.
He needed a 4 at the last to get his card.
Hit his drive down the right semi.....fine
Couldn't find it.
Walked back, played another and took 6
As he walked back to his bag, he found his original ball 30 yards from the green.
Thank you cart path.


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## Imurg (Mar 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			A guy I know did something similar at Q school.
He needed a 4 at the last to get his card.
Hit his drive down the right semi.....fine
Couldn't find it.
Walked back, played another and took 6
As he walked back to his bag, he found his original ball 30 yards from the green.
Thank you cart path.
		
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Would he have found it inside the 5 minutes?
I assume he looked, couldn't find, walked 300 back, hit another, walked another 300 and found the first - that has to take more than 5 minutes.
Doesn't it?


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			I agree that is a bit counter intuitive.  One or two like that. Take this one for instance

27-2b/4 Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found 

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=8018568E-8596-4259-AD1E-A686722D4FC6

Talk about taking a literal interpretation of the Rules. How many people would guess that was the answer?
		
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Although it is logical. Once you play a provisional ball believing it becomes the ball in play, it becomes the ball in play, and that can't retrospectively be cancelled.


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2012)

Ethan said:



			Although it is logical. Once you play a provisional ball believing it becomes the ball in play, it becomes the ball in play, and that can't retrospectively be cancelled.
		
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But should you be allowed to break a rule (play out of turn) on purpose to gain an advantage ?


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## SGC001 (Mar 2, 2012)

No rules book to hand, but as that's done (and does) to gain a significant advantage would that not be in danger of being considered a serious breach of the rules?


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			But should you be allowed to break a rule (play out of turn) on purpose to gain an advantage ?
		
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I think the issue is about the way the R&A have interpreted the concept of the stroke being "cancelled" when a ball is played out of turn.

To my mind that should mean the situation is put back to that which applied before the stroke was played, i.e the first ball is still in play unless not found within 5 mins or the player plays a stroke (in turn, or otherwise in accordance with the rules) with the provisional.

To my mind the R&A's interpretation in this case doesn't fully _cancel _the stroke. It allows the "cancelled" stroke to stand in realtion to putting the provisional ball in play but not in any other respect, which seems inconsistent.

What happens  if you play out of turn and hole out and your opponent asks for the stroke to be replayed? Is it too late as the hole is completed? Can't find a decision on that.


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## chrisd (Mar 2, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			What happens if you play out of turn and hole out and your opponent asks for the stroke to be replayed? Is it too late as the hole is completed? Can't find a decision on that.
		
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I am pretty certain that when the ball is in the cup then the hole, for you, is finished and then they cant ask you to replay it as you are deemed to have holed out


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## DaveM (Mar 2, 2012)

This is all getting to complicated for me. Note to self, keep it on the short stuff!


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## SGC001 (Mar 2, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I am pretty certain that when the ball is in the cup then the hole, for you, is finished and then they cant ask you to replay it as you are deemed to have holed out
		
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That's a matchplay situation (if they can ask you to replay it) and it's not deemed to have holed out, the stroke is cancelled (if I remember the term correctly). Again without reference to a rule book, if it is cancelled, and they find your ball in time I suspect you'd have to play it or declare it unplayable and proceed form there. 

I'm still thinking in strokeplay deliberately playing out of turn to gain an advantage could well be a serious breach.


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## MashieNiblick (Mar 2, 2012)

SGC001 said:



			I'm still thinking in strokeplay deliberately playing out of turn to gain an advantage could well be a serious breach.
		
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Rule 10-2 (c) covers this but it would appear it has to be because the players have _agreed _to play out turn, e.g. to give the second player a read on a putt.

_c. Playing Out of Turn 
If a competitor plays out of turn, there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies. If, however, the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified. _


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## SGC001 (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm thinking rule 1, it seems to me to be a serious breach of etiquette done to gain an advantage. 

The point you raise indicates agreement results in the penalty if there's an advantage, I can't see how it would be equitable to just not ask or get a no and do it anyway and then get away with it.

If it isn't a serious breach I think it should be and that may be something to be revised another time. I would be very suprised if this wasn't considered a serious breach.


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## chrisd (Mar 2, 2012)

The original question said that the provisional ball stopped 10in from the cup and almost every group of golfers let their playing companions "tap in" from close range out of turn, the only difference is that its a provisional and we all know that as soon as he plays it, it becomes the ball in play. We had the same question asked a few weeks ago in a slightly different way and the answer was - as soon as he holed out that was the hole finished, providing no one found his first ball before he holed out.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2012)

bobmac said:



			But should you be allowed to break a rule (play out of turn) on purpose to gain an advantage ?
		
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That is not what the decision describes. It describes someone who plays a provisional believing on good faith that their original ball is lost, only to find unexpectedly that it is not. The question of rushing up to tap in the provisional before anyone has a chance to find the original is a different question, but not actually a breach which carries a penalty either.


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## CliveW (Mar 2, 2012)

Even if the original ball is found within the five minute rule, it is up to the player, and only him, to identify it. He could quite easily say that he isn't sure that it is his and continue searching for the five minutes when the original ball would be deemed "lost" and then continue with the provisional.


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## Region3 (Mar 2, 2012)

In matchplay I'm sure a putt holed out of turn can still be requested to be replayed.

I also think that the act of hitting the putt with the provisional, even though the stroke will be replayed, makes the provisional the ball in play.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2012)

There is a question of pushing boundaries of etiquette and knowingly breaking rules for an advantage - which is cheating in my book!

My thoughts are that if I'd hit the ball into the whins then nearly holed out, I'd not look for my ball but if my opponent did, and found one, then I'd be in a position to identify it as mine or not. I wouldn't look for my opponents ball if it was the other way around - unless he was foolish enough to start the search first.


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## NervousShankaholic (Mar 2, 2012)

As the original poster i can see from the replies that in my opinion there is a slight grey area as regards what is the correct course of action. I think as a handicapped player instinct would always tend you towards looking for the ball however not sure it has been established what happens if you 'can' your provisional for a 3.



DaveM said:



			This is all getting to complicated for me. Note to self, keep it on the short stuff!
		
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## Pants (Mar 2, 2012)

NervousShankaholic said:



			.... however not sure it has been established what happens if you 'can' your provisional for a 3.
		
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I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier post.

"The provisional becomes the ball in play once it is lifted out of the hole by the player provided the original ball hasn't been found within the allowed 5 minutes for searching.​"


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## Pants (Mar 2, 2012)

Don't know why I bother sometimes.



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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2012)

Are you allowed to lose the will to live.


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