# Catholic Church



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Will they ever drag themselves into the modern world

They are unwilling to do anything about the ranks of disgusting peadophile and sexual abuse priests and bishops within their ranks 

Voted against more openess towards homo sexuals and remarrying 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29678751


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## Captainron (Oct 19, 2014)

bunch of Idiots. They elect a modern Pope but stay in the dark ages


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 19, 2014)

Jeez Catholic Church, if a golf forum is telling you to drag yourself into the modern world then you are in trouble.

Perhaps they will say it's just tradition and etiquette


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## Hobbit (Oct 19, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jeez Catholic Church, if a golf forum is telling you to drag yourself into the modern world then you are in trouble.

Perhaps they will say it's just tradition and etiquette
		
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You forgot to mention the purple frocks!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jeez Catholic Church, if a golf forum is telling you to drag yourself into the modern world then you are in trouble.

Perhaps they will say it's just tradition and etiquette
		
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Wow - i am impressed that you are able to continuely bring up the traditions etc of golf in nearly every thread - surprised you didnt also mention the dress code 

You dont like some of the traditions of dress codes and golf etc - we get it - the point and message has been firmly put across of your distaste for it.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow - i am impressed that you are able to continuely bring up the traditions etc of golf in nearly every thread - surprised you didnt also mention the dress code 

You dont like some of the traditions of dress codes and golf etc - we get it - the point and message has been firmly put across of your distaste for it.
		
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Think it was a joke Phil.


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## Slicer30 (Oct 19, 2014)

Maybe someone should start a thread about the anti catholic vibe on here

Sick of it


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Slicer30 said:



			Maybe someone should start a thread about the anti catholic vibe on here

Sick of it
		
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I was brought up as a Catholic as all my mothers family are stout catholics - i went to a catholic boarding school for 3 years - the same boarding school that has had teachers and brothers charged and sent down for sexual abuse 

Even the Pope himself has said there is around 5% of his priesthood that are peadophiles 

And here they have a chance to show they are changing for the better and they decide to stick to their IMO archaic views.

The catholic church doesnt paint a very good picture of itself at times


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## Slicer30 (Oct 19, 2014)

Yeah not defending the church at all, got a lot to answer for for sure.

But although the vote went against, the debate is being had now. Before it would not even get on the table.

Anyway - just the hangover talking.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Slicer30 said:



			Yeah not defending the church at all, got a lot to answer for for sure.

*But although the vote went against, the debate is being had now. Before it would not even get on the table.*

Anyway - just the hangover talking.
		
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Very fair point 

The Pope seems to be one that wants to change the image of the church - got a massive fight on his hands but would be a good step forward to see his bishops start to get behind him


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



The catholic church doesnt paint a very good picture of itself at times

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Pretty much the same for all religions


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I was brought up as a Catholic as all my mothers family are stout catholics - i went to a catholic boarding school for 3 years - the same boarding school that has had teachers and brothers charged and sent down for sexual abuse 

Even the Pope himself has said there is around 5% of his priesthood that are peadophiles 

And here they have a chance to show they are changing for the better and they decide to stick to their IMO archaic views.

The catholic church doesnt paint a very good picture of itself at times
		
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Pope Frank said it was 2%, and that was based on a similar figure in the general population, so he was making the point that the prevalence is probably the same in the clergy as the general population. The 2% figure, by the way, is based on people who are attracted to children aged 14 or less, although strictly speaking paedophilia refers to attraction to pre-pubescent children, and the term hebephilia refers to attraction to attraction to children aged 11 to 14. That greys the data because it is thought likely that the prevalence is weighted towards those who are attracted to the older kids compared to pre-pubescent, and the true figure for paedophilia is less than 1%. 

I think his point was misinterpreted as an admission that the Church is full of paedos, whereas instead he was trying to convey that he understood that the Church had issues because it reflected some of the norms of the general population.


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will they ever drag themselves into the modern world

They are unwilling to do anything about the ranks of disgusting peadophile and sexual abuse priests and bishops within their ranks 

Voted against more openess towards homo sexuals and remarrying 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29678751

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They do act against paedophiles in their ranks! They move them to another diocese, problem solved. 

I think the pope is on a sticky wicket with regard to openness towards homosexuality unfortunately. You're always going to have the 'thou shalt not lay with man as with woman' brigade (phrase may be slightly out, but sentiment is spot on). 
If you're going to live your life with the good book as the guiding principle (sp?) then they can't really pick and choose the bits they want to follow as this dilutes the message they try to put across in other areas (imo). 
In other words, if the pope is saying; 'look this bit of the bible is codswallop, you know the bit we get flack for, but the rest is ok,you know the bits we don't get flack for', then how can you be expected to treat any of it seriously? 


For what it's worth I couldn't care less if someone is gay, has remarried or uses contraception. I do think the churches historical dealings  of paedophiles in the ranks is absolutely reprehensible, disgusting, indefensible, shameful and downright criminal though. 

A tricky subject to debate as someone, at some point usually decries any criticism of the Catholic church as anti Catholicism. Pity, as the only way you can effect meaningful change is by shining a light on what needs changing and having meaningfull, grown up debate. 

This pope appears as though he is trying to deal with the rotten apples, will he rid the barrel of them though?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Pope Frank said it was 2%, and that was based on a similar figure in the general population, so he was making the point that the prevalence is probably the same in the clergy as the general population. The 2% figure, by the way, is based on people who are attracted to children aged 14 or less, although strictly speaking paedophilia refers to attraction to pre-pubescent children, and the term hebephilia refers to attraction to attraction to children aged 11 to 14. That greys the data because it is thought likely that the prevalence is weighted towards those who are attracted to the older kids compared to pre-pubescent, and the true figure for paedophilia is less than 1%. 

I think his point was misinterpreted as an admission that the Church is full of paedos, whereas instead he was trying to convey that he understood that the Church had issues because it reflected some of the norms of the general population.
		
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A report was saying they have defrocked 52 priests for sexual abuse over the last ten years in the UK with another 31 members being accused of having images of children - 470 abuse allegations but the two organisations dealign with the abuse scandals in this country seemed to be heading the rigth direction ,they have two teachers from my old school but they dont figure in the stats because they were in cloth plus 3 brothers. 

Its abroad that seems the most horrific with whole communities effected


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Pretty much the same for all religions
		
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Correct.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2014)

They already pick and choose which bits to follow and which to ignore, plenty of examples of nonsense in the bible that they don't adhere to. The anti-gay stuff us all about prejudice and bigotry, the religious aspect is nothing more than a convenient excuse.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow - i am impressed that you are able to continuely bring up the traditions etc of golf in nearly every thread - surprised you didnt also mention the dress code 

You dont like some of the traditions of dress codes and golf etc - we get it - the point and message has been firmly put across of your distaste for it.
		
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I'm sorry, I will wont make any jokes this time and will remove my humour gene as there's no place for humour on the modern internet forum.

I think it's terrible that we have an organization ran by an increasingly out of date bunch of mostly old males, whose views on a lot of matters seems to be at odds with large proportions of society in 2014. They seem pig headed when it comes to any meaningful changes and are intent on holding onto power whilst at the same time being seemingly unaware of the fact that their actions are doing long term harm to the very thing they are supposed to be protecting for future generations. But enough about golf clubs...

Oh scheiser, I've done it again..


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## chrisd (Oct 19, 2014)

And for all those reasons, when it comes to religion - I'm out!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

I hope that those with no religious faith can understand that for those who do have faith, such decisions and considerations can be difficult.  It is very easy for the former to condemn what can appear anachronistic positions on matters such as homosexuality and gay marriage, but without having a religious faith, that condemnation is made without a full understanding of why the matters are difficult.  

I should make clear that I speak as a member of a church which is currently grappling with the issue of gay marriage in our church - and please believe me that it is not easy as society is asking (almost demanding) that many good and caring people put aside long and deeply held beliefs and understandings - even although most of us recognise the need and that scripture and religious teachings are often contradictory on such matters.  It is easy for those of no spiritual or religious belief and faith to be disparaging and highly critical - but reconciling our beliefs with what society asks of us today can be difficult.

And though I am not a member of the Catholic church I think it is rather unfair to attack that particular church on it's stance on some matters - they affect most if not all churches (of course I appreciate the dreadful issues and the prevarication and denial around paedophilia in their priesthood is unacceptable).  But please also do not condemn outright religious beliefs on the basis of the actions or inaction of some in any particular church.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I hope that those with no religious faith can understand that for those who do have faith, such decisions and considerations can be difficult.  It is very easy for the former to condemn what can appear anachronistic positions on matters such as homosexuality and gay marriage, but without having a religious faith, that condemnation is made without a full understanding of why the matters are difficult.  

I should make clear that I speak as a member of a church which is currently grappling with the issue of gay marriage in our church - and please believe me that it is not easy as society is asking (almost demanding) that many good and caring people put aside long and deeply held beliefs and understandings - even although most of us recognise the need and that scripture and religious teachings are often contradictory on such matters.  It is easy for those of no spiritual or religious belief and faith to be disparaging and highly critical - but reconciling our beliefs with what society asks of us today can be difficult.

And though I am not a member of the Catholic church I think it is *rather unfair to attack that particular church on it's stance on some matters* - they affect most if not all churches (of course I appreciate the dreadful issues and the prevarication and denial around paedophilia in their priesthood is unacceptable).  But please also do not condemn outright religious beliefs on the basis of the actions or inaction of some in any particular church.
		
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Indeed. I prefer to attack the churches (all of them , equal opportunity) on the simple basis that in a rational world governed by laws of nature and science, the idea of religion and one or more deities controlling it all is utterly absurd and demonstrably false. 

I may as well believe in leprechauns at the bottom of the garden, and before you say anything beware, one of them doesn't take criticism too well.

COI: Reared Catholic, now born-again atheist.


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## chrisd (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Indeed. I prefer to attack the churches (all of them , equal opportunity) on the simple basis that in a rational world governed by laws of nature and science, the idea of religion and one or more deities controlling it all is utterly absurd and demonstrably false. 

I may as well believe in leprechauns at the bottom of the garden, and before you say anything beware, one of them doesn't take criticism too well.
		
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I agree with Ethan. 

I don't believe in any religion, so accepting the word of a few "church leaders" , especially where, say, contraception or gay marriage etc etc is concerned is clearly so detrimentally harmful to so many people who can't see through religion as to what it really is going on and that they are just being controlled by people peddling frightening lies about what will happen if you don't do what you're told. They wouldn't accept it if Ed Milliband was doing the telling but accept it when told by some guy wearing a frock!

Thank God I'm atheist !


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

Ched Evans , Maddy McCann and Religion (if im correct) .. by crikey Phil your on a run of sensitive subjects ..



Im a Catholic but ya know what my take is on it in reality

Life your life in a good and honest manner , treat other people they way you'd like to be treated yourself, dont judge others coz it may someday turn out you were wrong and not them so sccept them for who they are  , 
it wont solve all the problems but you should live a decent and happy life


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I hope that those with no religious faith can understand that for those who do have faith, such decisions and considerations can be difficult.  It is very easy for the former to condemn what can appear anachronistic positions on matters such as homosexuality and gay marriage, but without having a religious faith, that condemnation is made without a full understanding of why the matters are difficult.
		
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I appreciate you have made a sincere and heartfelt post. And, since the very notion of religious faith is unfathomable to me it is true that I am unable to imagine why it's difficult for religious people to treat people fairly, to love their neighbour etc. My rudimentary understanding of christianity suggests that should be the very basis of the religion?

They choose to have a religious faith, pick and choose which aspects of that faith they will respect and adhere to. I don't understand why homosexuality which rates only a few passing mentions (if that) in some versions of the bible causes so much vexation within the catholic church, and others, if it is not down to old-fashioned bigotry. In my opinion, the religion is only an excuse (as it has been an excuse for so many ills through the years). 

So please, don't just dismiss those of us without a religious faith (or delusion to put it another way) by claiming we can't understand. If there is a genuine, rational, reason for this discrimination please try and explain it.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 20, 2014)

Kind of serious question but why can't religious texts be updated?  Seems a bit strange top me that whole religions are based on texts that were written many centuries ago where attitudes to many things have changed dramatically. Just get the Pope, A few archbishops and other religious leaders, give them Word with 'track changes' enabled and boom, problem solved.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of serious question but why can't religious texts be updated?  Seems a bit strange top me that whole religions are based on texts that were written many centuries ago where attitudes to many things have changed dramatically. Just get the Pope, A few archbishops and other religious leaders, give them Word with 'track changes' enabled and boom, problem solved.

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A very valid question that and something IMO that needs to be attended to,  alot of what would be described now as "problems" (for want of a better word)for religions are because they werent there or if they were there they werent spoken of whenn texts or scripture were set down .. 

The world had moved on so much but some religions (my own included) seem to just stay ostrich like and hope it goes away , well it aint going away as people are even more so now realising life is for living not enduring .. 


Its way too vast to be simply sorted , but ur question is a very good one indeed


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Ched Evans , Maddy McCann and Religion (if im correct) .. by crikey Phil your on a run of sensitive subjects ..



Im a Catholic but ya know what my take is on it in reality

Life your life in a good and honest manner , treat other people they way you'd like to be treated yourself, dont judge others coz it may someday turn out you were wrong and not them so sccept them for who they are  , 
it wont solve all the problems but you should live a decent and happy life
		
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Good post and great attitude to life - I hope I also follow that :thup:

Religion picks and chooses what suits them and imo is fantasy and at times hypocritical but understand people need to have faith 

But not faith in a mythical person from a fiction novel in all its forms ( obviously that's just my opinion )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			So please, don't just dismiss those of us without a religious faith (or delusion to put it another way) by claiming we can't understand. If there is a genuine, rational, reason for this discrimination please try and explain it.
		
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I tried to post carefully so that I avoided being dismissive - I failed  

I tried stating that I didn't think you can have a *full * understanding about why those with a religious faith will find such matters difficult unless you yourself have such faith.  I am not saying that those *without *a faith cannot understand the issue and come to their own conclusions.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I tried to post carefully so that I avoided being dismissive - I failed  

I tried stating that I didn't think you can have a *full * understanding about why those with a religious faith will find such matters difficult unless you yourself have such faith.  I am not saying that those *without *a faith cannot understand the issue and come to their own conclusions.
		
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I agree that it is difficult to understand the thinking processes of people who accept a belief system which involves unquestioning acceptance of the utterly improbable based on no evidence whatesoever. The better question should be why we should expect them to accept any rational argument at all.  

Is that better?


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't understand why homosexuality which rates only a few passing mentions (if that) in some versions of the bible causes so much vexation within the catholic church, and others, if it is not down to old-fashioned bigotry. In my opinion, the religion is only an excuse (as it has been an excuse for so many ills through the years).
		
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Homosexuality isn't natural, a male and a female are MADE to be together that is why it's frowned upon. Seeing as it's now legal in this country we have to accept it as the norm regardless of whether it's right or wrong to do so. If they made it legal to have 'relations' with people 10yrs old would you be up in arms and disgusted? (bad example as age/consent become an issue but the reference was about the physical act but the point remains the same).

FWIW My personal stance isn't anything to do with the paragraph I wrote above as I couldn't care less what consenting adults get up to.


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## IanG (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Homosexuality isn't natural.
		
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I disagree. Evolution had led to a complex bio-machines (us) which don't all have the same behaviours, but we are all natural. 

Same-Sex attraction in the animal kingdom is widely reported and as far as I know broadly accepted. I'm not a professional in this area so stand to be corrected by someone who knows this field better than I.


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

IanG said:



			I disagree. Evolution had led to a complex bio-machines (us) which don't all have the same behaviours, but we are all natural. 

Same-Sex attraction in the animal kingdom is widely reported and as far as I know broadly accepted. I'm not a professional in this area so stand to be corrected by someone who knows this field better than I.
		
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It's a fair enough opinion, we are all different. If it were natural we'd all be doing it... and the human race would cease to exist. I'm not saying that some people aren't 'naturally' attracted to the similar sex (for one reason or another). It's legal to have 'relations' with animals in Sweden - does that mean it's right and those people do it 'naturally'?


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



Homosexuality isn't natural, a male and a female are MADE to be together that is why it's frowned upon. Seeing as it's now legal in this country we have to accept it as the norm regardless of whether it's right or wrong to do so. If they made it legal to have 'relations' with people 10yrs old would you be up in arms and disgusted? (bad example as age/consent become an issue but the reference was about the physical act but the point remains the same).

FWIW My personal stance isn't anything to do with the paragraph I wrote above as I couldn't care less what consenting adults get up to.
		
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Im totaly in agreement  with the bit in red..

I dont understand where it says the bit in blue , who said its not natural or where is it definitively proven ? did someone say years ago it shouldn't be and everyone followed along , 

kinda like alot of religions if thats the case  ...


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## IanG (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			If it were natural we'd all be doing it... and the human race would cease to exist.
		
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We don't have to ALL do (or want to do) the same things in order for them to be natural. We are incredible complicated organisms and surely there is room for more than one set of behaviours & desires in humanity. 

An ordered society requires that we set some limits on behaviours which are very damaging to others or the society more generally, e.g we don't allow a person with a proclivity to kill or steal to continue unsanctioned. Whether 'relations' with animals falls one side or other of the line we choose is a matter for the politicians. 

In this area, labels and the words we use are important. Describing homosexuality as not natural is insulting and denigrates a section of our society which has already put up with generations of prejudice and abuse.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Indeed. I prefer to attack the churches (all of them , equal opportunity) on the simple basis that in a rational world governed by laws of nature and science, the idea of religion and one or more deities controlling it all is utterly absurd and *demonstrably false*.

I may as well believe in leprechauns at the bottom of the garden, and before you say anything beware, one of them doesn't take criticism too well.

COI: Reared Catholic, now born-again atheist.
		
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So you can prove to me that there is no God?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I agree with Ethan. 

I don't believe in any religion, so accepting the word of a few "church leaders" , especially where, say, contraception or gay marriage etc etc is concerned is clearly so detrimentally harmful to so many people who can't see through religion as to what it really is going on and that *they are just being controlled by people peddling frightening lies about what will happen if you don't do what you're told.* They wouldn't accept it if Ed Milliband was doing the telling but accept it when told by some guy wearing a frock!

Thank God I'm atheist !
		
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So who is doing this?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you can prove to me that there is no God?
		
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Can you prove there is a god ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So who is doing this?
		
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Priests - anyone preaching


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I agree that it is difficult to understand the thinking processes of people who accept a belief system which involves *unquestioning *acceptance of the utterly improbable based on no evidence whatesoever. The better question should be why we should expect them to accept any rational argument at all.  

Is that better?
		
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Unquestioning - that you know?  And there is much we don't understand about which we hypothesise and formulate (mathematical) descriptions of that create the impression of understanding - at least an understanding that is sufficient to meet our own needs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you prove there is a god ?
		
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I don't need to


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't need to
		
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So the answer is no :thup:

To prove there is no God - show me him or her or where I can see God


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Priests - anyone preaching
		
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Don't know anything about priests as I have never spoken with one.  And _anyone _preaching? - well there's quite a sweeping generality.  I best check with my own minister to find out what will happen to me if my thinking strays from the path because I don't believe that I've ever been told.  Must be missing something - feel left out.


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## Imurg (Oct 20, 2014)

Proof denies faith.
If you prove God exists he/she will promptly vanish in a puff of logic....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the answer is no :thup:

To prove there is no God - show me him or her or where I can see God
		
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Nah - instead how about you proving to me that there is no God as you are so sure that one doesn't exist in any real or spiritual form.  We can feel and see the effects of what we call gravity, and we can describe it mathematically based upon our developed theories of astrophysics - but can you *show* me gravity?  Why then must I *prove * the existence of a God by showing you him/her/it - and might not even be an 'it'?

I don't really care if you don't believe in a God but you can't tell me one doesn't exist - sorry.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nah - instead how about you proving to me that there is no God as you are so sure that one doesn't exist in any real or spiritual form.  We can feel and see the effects of what we call gravity, and we can describe it mathematically based upon our developed theories of astrophysics - but can you *show* me gravity?  Why then must I *prove * the existence of a God by showing you him/her/it - and might not even be an 'it'?

I don't really care if you don't believe in a God but you can't tell me one doesn't exist - sorry.
		
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I can tell you one doesn't exist just like you can say you believe the fictional character exists 

The only place someone called God exists is in fictional books and films - no one has ever shown me any different 

I can see gravity at work - you can't see God at work


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Homosexuality isn't natural, 




			To take this a step away from the Catholic Church isn't it all about freedom of expression and choice?
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can tell you one doesn't exist just like you can say you believe the fictional character exists 

The only place someone called God exists is in fictional books and films - no one has ever shown me any different 

I can see gravity at work - you can't see God at work
		
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I can - maybe you are just not looking in the right place


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 20, 2014)

People have a right to believe in whatever belief mechanism they wish, whether that be a religion, the sun, moon, Jedi or none of the above.

It is not our place to pour scorn on these beliefs, asking someone who believes in God to prove God exists is utter nonsense.

Please respect other members beliefs

thanks


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			People have a right to believe in whatever belief mechanism they wish, whether that be a religion, the sun, moon, Jedi or none of the above.

It is not our place to pour scorn on these beliefs, asking someone who believes in God to prove God exists is utter nonsense.

Please respect other members beliefs

thanks
		
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thankyou sir :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			People have a right to believe in whatever belief mechanism they wish, whether that be a religion, the sun, moon, Jedi or none of the above.

It is not our place to pour scorn on these beliefs, asking someone who believes in God to prove God exists is utter nonsense.

Please respect other members beliefs

thanks
		
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Does that not also count towards people asking to prove there is no God ? 

And also for people who have "faith in God" to respect people who think its a lot of nonsense ?


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the answer is no :thup:

To prove there is no God - show me him or her or where I can see God
		
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Do you believe there are aliens?

Do you believe there are ghosts?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Do you believe there are aliens?

Do you believe there are ghosts?
		
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Nope to both :thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope to both :thup:
		
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Bugger.

A surprising amount of people who absolutely deny the existence of God, believe in the other two. I like that argument.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Bugger.

A surprising amount of people who absolutely deny the existence of God, believe in the other two. I like that argument.
		
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Can quite clearly see that as well - can't dismiss the existence of one whilst believe the other exsist unless you have been to Area 51


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## Fish (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			People have a right to believe in whatever belief mechanism they wish, whether that be a religion, the sun, moon, Jedi or none of the above.

It is not our place to pour scorn on these beliefs, asking someone who believes in God to prove God exists is utter nonsense.

Please respect other members beliefs

thanks
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			thankyou sir :thup:
		
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I believe it was SwingitlikeHogan who first threw the "God" card down so I'm disappointed by these posts that lean more to blaming LP in the first instance, the post should be more equally levelled but LP didn't ask the question first, SILH did to Ethan in #34!


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does that not also count towards people asking to prove there is no God ? 

And also for people who have "faith in God" to respect people who think its a lot of nonsense ?
		
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Grow up Phil,this is pathetic. 
It's obvious no one can prove there is or isn't a god. 
Just allow others to have their beliefs & you have yours. :thup:


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

IanG said:



			We don't have to ALL do (or want to do) the same things in order for them to be natural. We are incredible complicated organisms and surely there is room for more than one set of behaviours & desires in humanity. 

An ordered society requires that we set some limits on behaviours which are very damaging to others or the society more generally, e.g we don't allow a person with a proclivity to kill or steal to continue unsanctioned. Whether 'relations' with animals falls one side or other of the line we choose is a matter for the politicians. 

In this area, labels and the words we use are important. Describing homosexuality as not natural is insulting and denigrates a section of our society which has already put up with generations of prejudice and abuse.
		
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Good post, I agree with what you say there... from one side of the road. As I said I don't care what people do, so with that in mind I'll put forward the suggestion that if someone naturally finds themselves drawn to someone of the same sex is that much different to someone who is drawn to a child? (forgetting for a moment that one is illegal) Is there really any difference behaviourally between the two on a 'mental/decision making' level?... some would even declare the latter a mental illness and not natural at all.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 20, 2014)

Its a Golf Forum. not the Richard Dawkins appreciation society 


Just saying that this is not the place to challenge or criticize peoples beliefs


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## Fish (Oct 20, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Grow up Phil,this is pathetic. 
It's obvious no one can prove there is or isn't a god. 
Just allow others to have their beliefs & you have yours. :thup:
		
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Oi, look back at the posts, why shouldn't he respond to SILH post #34 who first made the comment in reverse!


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does that not also count towards people asking to prove there is no God ? 

And also for people who have "faith in God" to respect people who think its a lot of nonsense ?
		
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When it gets to the proof/not proof level then there's going to be no winner. Having a faith isn't about proof. you can't prove there isn't and they can't prove there is. However, discussing religion VS non religion is a great subject when it doesn't get silly. :thup:


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## Fish (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Its a Golf Forum. not the Richard Dawkins appreciation society 


Just saying that this is not the place to challenge or criticize peoples beliefs
		
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But it read very one sided, hence SILH "thank you" post


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 20, 2014)

Fish said:



			Oi, look back at the posts, why shouldn't he respond to SILH post #34 who first made the comment in reverse!
		
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Oi????


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Its a Golf Forum. not the Richard Dawkins appreciation society 


Just saying that this is not the place to challenge or criticize peoples beliefs
		
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But it's in the OOB area ? Surely as long as people aren't throwing insults and derogatory comments at each it's no different talking about politics etc in a golf forum ?


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## Fish (Oct 20, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Oi????
		
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yes Oi, your post was an attack on LP without looking back at the original post (#34) that SILH first said to "prove it"

Don't you like Oi, tough, make something of it if you want, good luck


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 20, 2014)

Fish said:



			yes Oi, your post was an attack on LP without looking back at the original post (#34) that SILH first said to "prove it"

Don't you like Oi, tough, make something of it if you want, good luck   
	View attachment 12673

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Here we go again,Fish playing the tough guy.


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## chrisd (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So who is doing this?
		
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The church does.

So, if you don't repent your sins and believe in God you don't go to heaven. That would frighten Christians and is, as far as I'm concerned, a blatant lie and a direct threat to toe the line


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

chrisd said:



			The church does.

So, if you don't repent your sins and believe in God you don't go to heaven. That would frighten Christians and is, as far as I'm concerned, a blatant lie and a direct threat to toe the line
		
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But you can't say whether it's true or not, that's just your own sentiment. I would think that the church has the right to tell it's followers what they can/can't do - or else they wouldn't be followers. If you're a Christian then you should follow what the Christian faith TELLS you to do, regardless whether you view it as a threat or not.


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Homosexuality isn't natural,
		
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HomerJSimpson said:



			To take this a step away from the Catholic Church isn't it all about freedom of expression and choice?
		
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I stand by the original statement. It's a mental state and it's a physical state, but it's not a natural state. Were it to be natural men would have ovaries where the sun doesn't shine.

In terms of freedom/choice if (for example) I choose to sleep with men isn't that the same as someone choosing to sleep with Fido?


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## chrisd (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			But you can't say whether it's true or not, that's just your own sentiment. I would think that the church has the right to tell it's followers what they can/can't do - or else they wouldn't be followers. If you're a Christian then you should follow what the Christian faith TELLS you to do, regardless whether you view it as a threat or not.
		
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But I think over the centuries it's been used to frighten people into wars, obedience and fear. Nowadays we are more questioning of these doctrines and are able and willing to question them and that it why there is, I believe, about 50% of people who declare themselves as having no faith


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

chrisd said:



			But I think over the centuries it's been used to frighten people into wars, obedience and fear.
		
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Absolutely, it was a critical part of forming communities when rape/pillage was the norm and people had nothing to live for. Without doubt many are seeing religion as somewhat obsolete nowadays.


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## chrisd (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Absolutely, it was a critical part of forming communities when rape/pillage was the norm and people had nothing to live for. Without doubt many are seeing religion as somewhat obsolete nowadays.
		
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Just my point. It worries me that other religions don't become less dangerous


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Homosexuality isn't natural, .
		
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James you might want to have a quick look here,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
 seems it is quite widespread in the animal kingdom, especially in Giraffes


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			James you might want to have a quick look here,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
 seems it is quite widespread in the animal kingdom, especially in Giraffes
		
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Not sure how you came across this,but TouchÃ© Phil.


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			James you might want to have a quick look here,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
 seems it is quite widespread in the animal kingdom, especially in Giraffes
		
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If you want to refer to homosexuals as animals then that's up to you  

Self awareness is what makes us humans different to the animal kingdom, and in terms of religion we have a soul/spirit which again makes us 'more important' apparently 

Many animals sleep with their siblings and parents. So I guess that must be natural for us too? (if we follow your logic)


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 20, 2014)

chrisd said:



			But I think over the centuries it's been used to frighten people into wars, obedience and fear. Nowadays we are more questioning of these doctrines and are able and willing to question them and that it why there is, I believe, about 50% of people who declare themselves as having no faith
		
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Or even a middle way, whereby Christians CHOOSE what bits of the doctrines to practice and not what to. E.G Cotraception, homosexuality etc


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Homosexuality isn't natural, a male and a female are MADE to be together that is why it's frowned upon. Seeing as it's now legal in this country we have to accept it as the norm regardless of whether it's right or wrong to do so. If they made it legal to have 'relations' with people 10yrs old would you be up in arms and disgusted? (bad example as age/consent become an issue but the reference was about the physical act but the point remains the same).

FWIW My personal stance isn't anything to do with the paragraph I wrote above as I couldn't care less what consenting adults get up to.
		
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Is monogamy natural?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 20, 2014)

Daughter was married a couple of weeks ago and I had four friends over from Italy as guests for the wedding.. They were gobsmacked that the Priest was a woman. They said that there was no way that would be allowed in Italy. For the record she was fantastic.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unquestioning - that you know?  And there is much we don't understand about which we hypothesise and formulate (mathematical) descriptions of that create the impression of understanding - at least an understanding that is sufficient to meet our own needs.
		
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This is 'we don't know everything, so anything's possible' fallacy. 

Nonsense.

Unquestioning refers to the attitude in some religions that you must have faith or you are not properly observant. Nice trick because faith means belief without proof and it stops the followers from questioning the basis for their religion. Once some of them do the questioning, they often leave when they realise what a load of nonsense it all is.


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Homosexuality isn't natural
		
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I think the test of whether something is natural, normal or right is to ask "what would happen if everyone did it" As JustOne said in the case of homosexuality the human race would die out. In the case of antisocial behaviour, society would disintegrate




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you can prove to me that there is no God?
		
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This is as impossible as questions I ask myself. "If God made everything, who made him?" When time started, what happened just before that? When you get to the end of the Universe, what's beyond that? Answers on a postcard.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 20, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Not sure how you came across this,but TouchÃ© Phil.
		
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JustOne said:



			If you want to refer to homosexuals as animals then that's up to you  

Self awareness is what makes us humans different to the animal kingdom, and in terms of religion we have a soul/spirit which again makes us 'more important' apparently 

Many animals sleep with their siblings and parents. So I guess that must be natural for us too? (if we follow your logic)
		
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Google is your friend.

James, you said it wasn't natural, the article and other research proves that it is quite common.
And I would guess that it feels totally natural to those members of the human race who are so inclined, including certain members of this forum, whom I am very keen not to alienate.


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## chrisd (Oct 20, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			This is as impossible as questions I ask myself. "If God made everything, who made him?" When time started, what happened just before that? When you get to the end of the Universe, what's beyond that? Answers on a postcard.
		
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It's impossible IMO to believe that God made everything and also accept the scientific Big Bang theory and I believe there is evidence of one and not the other!


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			This is 'we don't know everything, so anything's possible' fallacy. 

Nonsense.

Unquestioning refers to the attitude in some religions that you must have faith or you are not properly observant. Nice trick because faith means belief without proof and it stops the followers from questioning the basis for their religion. Once some of them do the questioning, they often leave when they realise what a load of nonsense it all is.
		
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Crap.

I'm sure like me that people who "believe" still question their beliefs, many many times.


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## c1973 (Oct 20, 2014)

Is it to difficult for those who think homosexuality is unnatural to accept that some people disagree and think it is natural?

And, is it to difficult for those who think homosexuality is natural to accept that some people disagree and think it is unnatural?

Just saying like.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

This thread has gotten lost has it not, its now about whether God exists or not , i believe he does and nothing you say will change that , if you dont believe there is nothing i can say to change that , 

there is no point in arguing with each other over it because there is no proof either way , just gota agree to have different beliefs but respect the other persons beliefs 

One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago, religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee

But remember 2 things , if you dont believe , feel free not to associate yourself with that religion , but the fact they dont agree with you or fit your way of life doesnt make them wrong & vice versa for the people who want to believe 

Secondly religions & beliefs aint the real problem ,  but the people who bend & twist what was  written for a very different time to suit their agendas now are .. 

we are not all going to agree on this so please dont get carried away with the discussion


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 20, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			This thread has gotten lost has it not, its now about whether God exists or not , i believe he does and nothing you say will change that , if you dont believe there is nothing i can say to change that , 

there is no point in arguing with each other over it because there is no proof either way , just gota agree to have different beliefs but respect the other persons beliefs 

One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee

But remember 2 things , if you dont believe feel free not to associate yourself with that religion , but thr tact they dont agrew with you or fit your way of life doesnt make them wrong & vice versa for the people who want to believe 

Secondly religions & beliefs aint the real problem ,  but the people who bend & twist what was  written for a very different time in the name of religion are .. 

we are not all going to agree on this so please dont get carried away with the discussion
		
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wise words Bill :thup:


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## ger147 (Oct 20, 2014)

If God does exist, I wonder what Her handicap would be?


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			wise words Bill :thup:
		
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Doesnt happen too often mate haha ..


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Crap.

I'm sure like me that people who "believe" still question their beliefs, many many times.
		
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That says something about you, not about the doctrine of faith. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

ger147 said:



			If God does exist, I wonder what *Her *handicap would be?
		
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His


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 20, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago, religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee
		
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Good point. Out of interest, would it be fair to say any religion has adapted and moved their core messages on for the current world we live in? I don't mean IS and their terror campaign, that's separate to this discussion, but would you say the Jews, Sikhs, Muslims (not IS splinter) or any other religion has really moved on. Not sure I think any has and is promoting a message that's relevant to today


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## williamalex1 (Oct 20, 2014)

ger147 said:



			If God does exist, I wonder what Her handicap would be?
		
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I know a joke about that , but I'll save it for another time.


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Google is your friend.

James, you said it wasn't natural, the article and other research proves that it is quite common.
And I would guess that it feels totally natural to those members of the human race who are so inclined, including certain members of this forum, whom I am very keen not to alienate.
		
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I certainly don't want alienate anyone but should someone ask 




			"I don't understand why homosexuality which rates only a few passing mentions (if that) in some versions of the bible causes so much vexation within the catholic church, and others, if it is not down to old-fashioned bigotry."
		
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 then there's every reason to have a discussion about it. 

I believe my bottom was made for me to use the toilet, anything else (however 'natural' it may be referred to) certainly isn't. Sure I understand people who love someone of the same gender, and accept those that go on to have sex with said person for mutual love/pleasure... but it's not natural. 

I think in society we become jaded and adopt things that we see time and time again as becoming acceptable we certainly have to take on board practically every minority nowadays for fear of being seen as not 'PC'. I don't mind who someone shares their bed with but to expect an establishment such as the Catholic Church to want to change the very fundamentals of their beliefs for a minority group is a huge step - a step too far in my opinion... however sooner or later they will 'need the votes' and probably change, just not for a while yet. To not understand the principles of the church (and refer to it as bigotry) is naive at the very least IMO.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good point. Out of interest, would it be fair to say any religion has adapted and moved their core messages on for the current world we live in? I don't mean IS and their terror campaign, that's separate to this discussion, but would you say the Jews, Sikhs, Muslims (not IS splinter) or any other religion has really moved on. Not sure I think any has and is promoting a message that's relevant to today
		
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Id say none Martin .. and i cant see any doing it and generation by generation  belief will be less and less and IMO more & more people will choose to be governed by the law of the land rather than scripture written in a very different time ..


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			This thread has gotten lost has it not, its now about whether God exists or not , i believe he does and nothing you say will change that , if you dont believe there is nothing i can say to change that , 

there is no point in arguing with each other over it because there is no proof either way , just gota agree to have different beliefs but respect the other persons beliefs 

One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago, religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee

But remember 2 things , if you dont believe , feel free not to associate yourself with that religion , but the fact they dont agree with you or fit your way of life doesnt make them wrong & vice versa for the people who want to believe 

Secondly religions & beliefs aint the real problem ,  but the people who bend & twist what was  written for a very different time to suit their agendas now are .. 

we are not all going to agree on this so please dont get carried away with the discussion
		
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I agree this is going round in circles, but you are building an argument of false equivalency - one side can't prove, nor can the other, so its a draw.

The world we live in has sets of rules, call them laws of nature, laws of physics, whatever. The assertion of anything which fundamentally clashes with the truths of the observed world require extraordinary proof, because they change the way we understand the world. Existence of God is the big daddy of such beliefs, but it gets a pass from the normal demands for proof because it has a long history in modern civilisation (although short in the history of humans and their ancestors) and is intertwined with society and culture.

In short, atheists shouldn't have to prove their is no God, because there is no proof that there is one, and the notion is so contrary to everything that makes sense. It should therefore require extraordinary proof. 

Religion has constantly changed, because the whole story is built on loose ground and needs to change otherwise more people would see right through it.  

And between the two sides, those who believe in God and those who don't, one of them IS wrong. There is a famous philosophical argument, Pascal's Wager, which says that if you are not sure, believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager It is sometimes shortened to the idea that it is better to believe in God and be proven wrong than the opposite.


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			There is a famous philosophical argument, Pascal's Wager, which says that if you are not sure, believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager It is sometimes shortened to the idea that it is better to believe in God and be proven wrong than the opposite.
		
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I can name a fair few who believe on that basis.

My sentiment is that if there really truly happened to be a God and he couldn't find it in himself to forgive me for not believing in him then he's an arse! I've forgiven people for far worse 

(that's me with my bases covered)


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## JustOne (Oct 20, 2014)

Just a thought.... Is there any religion that considers that God may be gay? :mmm:


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 20, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Id say none Martin .. and i cant see any doing it and generation by generation  belief will be less and less and IMO more & more people will choose to be governed by the law of the land rather than scripture written in a very different time ..
		
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I can kind of see that with Catholics, CoE, Protestants and to a degree the Jewish faith within the UK at least but as we get more and more from a Sikh and Muslim persuasion over here will there come a time when they will be the main faiths in the UK (if we aren't there already).


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## c1973 (Oct 20, 2014)

I don't really get the religion should move with the times argument. 

In the case of followers of the big fella, the big man upstairs handed down the ten commandments and said something along the lines of 'see here now, these are the rules by which you should live your life'. Simple instructions.

Now, If he wants to alter/amend or in any way update his rules then I'm sure he'll appear with a new tablet (maybe a nexus?) with his update. But so far he hasn't, so until then the big dudes followers should be living their lives guided by his original commandments and not just the bits they fancy adhering to, or extra bits that somebody in a dress and pointy hat tells them. That, in my book,  means they aren't proper followers of the big guy upstairs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Just a thought.... Is there any religion that considers that God may be gay? :mmm:
		
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Scientology ?


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I agree this is going round in circles, but you are building an argument of false equivalency - one side can't prove, nor can the other, so its a draw.

The world we live in has sets of rules, call them laws of nature, laws of physics, whatever. The assertion of anything which fundamentally clashes with the truths of the observed world require extraordinary proof, because they change the way we understand the world. Existence of God is the big daddy of such beliefs, but it gets a pass from the normal demands for proof because it has a long history in modern civilisation (although short in the history of humans and their ancestors) and is intertwined with society and culture.

In short, atheists shouldn't have to prove their is no God, because there is no proof that there is one, and the notion is so contrary to everything that makes sense. It should therefore require extraordinary proof. 

Religion has constantly changed, because the whole story is built on loose ground and needs to change otherwise more people would see right through it.  

And between the two sides, those who believe in God and those who don't, one of them IS wrong. There is a famous philosophical argument, Pascal's Wager, which says that if you are not sure, believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager It is sometimes shortened to the idea that it is better to believe in God and be proven wrong than the opposite.
		
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Jaypers , where to start .. 

 im not building anything , im just stating the one fact there can be regarding religion , the  fact that one persons right to believe is the same as the others not to, the fact that the proof either way is not there right now & maybe never will be..

I did write alot more but ive removed it , whats the point we have different beliefs and we could argue or discuss it endlessly  .. 

Its not my job to convince anyone there is or isnt a God , if when my kids get older they decided ya know what da i dont believe any of this mullarkey , il talk to them and ask why , i will discuss it with them but end of day , i will not force them to believe


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

JustOne said:



			I can name a fair few who believe on that basis.

My sentiment is that if there really truly happened to be a God and he couldn't find it in himself to forgive me for not believing in him then he's an arse! I've forgiven people for far worse 

(that's me with my bases covered) 

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Chicken ha ha


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## bladeplayer (Oct 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I can kind of see that with Catholics, CoE, Protestants and to a degree the Jewish faith within the UK at least but as we get more and more from a Sikh and Muslim persuasion over here will there come a time when they will be the main faiths in the UK (if we aren't there already).
		
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i think the sikh & muslims will lose some aswel (maybe not the same extent)  Martin as the generations become more europeanised.. could be wrong tho , ive no real experience of either


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 20, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			i think the sikh & muslims will lose some aswel (maybe not the same extent) well Martin as the generations become more eoropeanised.. could be wrong tho , ive no real experience of either
		
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You may be right. I'm an atheist and so have no affinity to any religion but have happy for those that have their faith. As Dave Allen use to say.. "may your god go with you"


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 20, 2014)

IanG said:



			We don't have to ALL do (or want to do) the same things in order for them to be natural. We are incredible complicated organisms and surely there is room for more than one set of behaviours & desires in humanity. 

An ordered society requires that we set some limits on behaviours which are very damaging to others or the society more generally, e.g we don't allow a person with a proclivity to kill or steal to continue unsanctioned. Whether 'relations' with animals falls one side or other of the line we choose is a matter for the politicians. 

In this area, labels and the words we use are important. Describing homosexuality as not natural is insulting and denigrates a section of our society which has already put up with generations of prejudice and abuse.
		
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Good post sir.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2014)

c1973 said:



			I don't really get the religion should move with the times argument. 

In the case of followers of the big fella, the big man upstairs handed down the ten commandments and said something along the lines of 'see here now, these are the rules by which you should live your life'. Simple instructions.

Now, If he wants to alter/amend or in any way update his rules then I'm sure he'll appear with a new tablet (maybe a nexus?) with his update. But so far he hasn't, so until then the big dudes followers should be living their lives guided by his original commandments and not just the bits they fancy adhering to, or extra bits that somebody in a dress and pointy hat tells them. That, in my book,  means they aren't proper followers of the big guy upstairs.  

Click to expand...

Somebody in a dress and pointy hat? You may have one branch of Christianity in mind but it sure as heck isn't mine.  Bit of a coarse and flippant generalisation there.  I do often wonder if folk know anything at all about churches other than the CoE and the Catholic Church


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Somebody in a dress and pointy hat? You may have one branch of Christianity in mind but it sure as heck isn't mine.  Bit of a coarse and flippant generalisation there.  I do often wonder if folk know anything at all about churches other than the CoE and the Catholic Church 

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And your church/religion is ? If its ok to ask ?


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 20, 2014)

Read through this with interest. What do they say about religion and politics???  Here's my contribution!

Existence of God:
I have every respect for all who believe and don't want to get into the proof argument as it's pointless. However, I do object to the notion that "Christian values" or even "British values" we seem to be hearing so much about at present are either valid or relevant. The remarkable thing about humanity is the similarity across the globe of the ordinary person. Society works because we have humanity in common, not because of the different versions of the "rule book". We all know it's wrong to kill people but it still goes on every day. I just somehow think that if we all believed there was no "heaven", "afterlife" or "re-incarnation" then we'd have a bit more respect for the short life we all have in this world.

Homosexuality:
To me, it isn't and never will be "normal" (whatever that means). It's a valid choice if that's what you want and anyone choosing that path should be free to do so. I do believe though to teach children that it's just as natural as a conventional m/f relationship is just crazy. It isn't......period. That's not saying a m/m or f/f relationship is wrong, or anything to be ashamed of but will always be on the fringes of human society. There is no "gay gene", there can't be if you actually think about it. Very few are "born this way". It's a lifestyle choice which is fine by me if that's what floats your boat.

The Catholic Church:
No different to any other religious body. All about power and the control of people. Suppose that's where the overlap with politics comes in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			Read through this with interest. What do they say about religion and politics???  Here's my contribution!

Existence of God:
I have every respect for all who believe and don't want to get into the proof argument as it's pointless. However, I do object to the notion that "Christian values" or even "British values" we seem to be hearing so much about at present are either valid or relevant. The remarkable thing about humanity is the similarity across the globe of the ordinary person. Society works because we have humanity in common, not because of the different versions of the "rule book". We all know it's wrong to kill people but it still goes on every day. I just somehow think that if we all believed there was no "heaven", "afterlife" or "re-incarnation" then we'd have a bit more respect for the short life we all have in this world.

Homosexuality:
To me, it isn't and never will be "normal" (whatever that means). It's a valid choice if that's what you want and anyone choosing that path should be free to do so. I do believe though to teach children that it's just as natural as a conventional m/f relationship is just crazy. It isn't......period. That's not saying a m/m or f/f relationship is wrong, or anything to be ashamed of but will always be on the fringes of human society. There is no "gay gene", there can't be if you actually think about it. Very few are "born this way". It's a lifestyle choice which is fine by me if that's what floats your boat.

The Catholic Church:
No different to any other religious body. All about power and the control of people. Suppose that's where the overlap with politics comes in.
		
Click to expand...

Very good post - :thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			That says something about you, not about the doctrine of faith. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity

Click to expand...

I don't know what that has to do with your statement:-

"Nice trick because faith means belief without proof and it stops the followers from questioning the basis for their religion".

I believe in God, I have questioned my faith many times, and I believe that many believers have done the same. I don't see how the Wikipedia entry proves against that. Enlighten me, bring me out of darkness, into the light. :thup:


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## Fish (Oct 21, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			Read through this with interest. What do they say about religion and politics???  Here's my contribution!

Existence of God:
I have every respect for all who believe and don't want to get into the proof argument as it's pointless. However, I do object to the notion that "Christian values" or even "British values" we seem to be hearing so much about at present are either valid or relevant. The remarkable thing about humanity is the similarity across the globe of the ordinary person. Society works because we have humanity in common, not because of the different versions of the "rule book". We all know it's wrong to kill people but it still goes on every day. I just somehow think that if we all believed there was no "heaven", "afterlife" or "re-incarnation" then we'd have a bit more respect for the short life we all have in this world.

Homosexuality:
To me, it isn't and never will be "normal" (whatever that means). It's a valid choice if that's what you want and anyone choosing that path should be free to do so. I do believe though to teach children that it's just as natural as a conventional m/f relationship is just crazy. It isn't......period. That's not saying a m/m or f/f relationship is wrong, or anything to be ashamed of but will always be on the fringes of human society. There is no "gay gene", there can't be if you actually think about it. Very few are "born this way". It's a lifestyle choice which is fine by me if that's what floats your boat.

The Catholic Church:
No different to any other religious body. All about power and the control of people. Suppose that's where the overlap with politics comes in.
		
Click to expand...

This will do for me :thup:


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## Papas1982 (Oct 21, 2014)

Not gonna get into the religieous debate. But i'm astounded how many people seem to think that homosexuality is unnatural and some sort of choice. It may be unappealing to you. But it is simply a matter of someone being attracted to someone! 

I wonder how many of us have watched a bit of girl on girl in our youth and thought "that's so unnatural, turn it off"!


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## User20205 (Oct 21, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Not gonna get into the religieous debate. But i'm astounded how many people seem to think that homosexuality is unnatural and some sort of choice. It may be unappealing to you. But it is simply a matter of someone being attracted to someone! 

I wonder how many of us have watched a bit of girl on girl in our youth and thought "that's so unnatural, turn it off"!
		
Click to expand...

Apart for the slightly crass final point I agree with this 100%. I do find some of the attitudes on this forum unenlightened at best, offensive at worst. To say homosexuality is not normal opens up the way for persecution and hatred. 

You can fall back on a religious text, or even innate bigotry, but to imply that it's different, and some how not as worthy a a heterosexual relationship is Neanderthal. To define sexuality by a sex act puts you in the category of a mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, helmet wearing retard. 

(Mod Edit)

As for the church, I don't care, but any organisation that allows bigotry and persecution whilst pretending it holds the answer to societies ills is riddled with hypocrisy. Any intelligent person that falls into line with their doctorine needs to wake up. IMO


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 21, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Not gonna get into the religieous debate. But i'm astounded how many people seem to think that homosexuality is unnatural and some sort of choice. It may be unappealing to you. But it is simply a matter of someone being attracted to someone! 

I wonder how many of us have watched a bit of girl on girl in our youth and thought "that's so unnatural, turn it off"!
		
Click to expand...

Well said.  You could argue that getting into a metal box with 4 round bits of rubber on it which transports us at speeds much faster than a human can achieve with their body isn't 'natural'.  But plenty of us do that.

And less of the 'in our youth'.....


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 21, 2014)

Well, how glad am I that I wasn't online while all this nonsense was getting trotted out.

JustOne - your posts on homosexuality are both ill-informed and utterly offensive. 

Mods (Phil) - Why is it not OK to criticise the Sun but conflating homosexuality with child abuse goes unchallenged? Your priorities are way off.

Anyone who thinks homosexuality isn't natural just needs to look at the prejudice, discrimination and abuse we have faced (and still do although things are improving) and ask why anyone would CHOOSE to go through that.

Not getting into a debate on this. Taking a break from the scumbags in here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And your church/religion is ? If its ok to ask ?
		
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It is - Church of Scotland and United Reformed Church (both Protestant - the URC and CoS are very close theologically and liturgically)


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 21, 2014)

Im going to close the thread,

This was a wide ranging discussion that always had the potential to kick off, and as always its a fine line between free speech and censorship. and that is why a close eye was kept on it.

Certain posters put forward a particular point of view and others including me countered it, at no time were the arguments directed at any individuals, The forum rules say " criticize ideas not individuals", that is what happened.Read my post no 79

At no time did anybody report a post to the Mod team, that indicates that the forum is happy with the content. The basic rule is that if you think a post/thread is going in the wrong direction, then please report it.

Not reporting it and then later having a go at the mods is not right.

The alternative is that we ban discussion on all topics that might kick off, so no politics, football, religion, Ched Evans, Madeline McCann etc etc  so we are left with PC problems or plumbing questions in OOB


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