# GPS; Its just a gimmick!



## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

I know many golfers use GPS nowdays but I feel it is just a very expensive gimmick and does not help improve your game at all and in fact is proberly detrimental to your game .The whole idea of golf is to works out the distance of each club before you hit the course,then read the distance off the hole on your scorecard and use the appropriate club.If you use a driver deduct that off the distance of the hole and use the relevent club to reach the green.Now if you dont hit a club the distance you know you can you work out from eye and course markers what distance you have left and chose an appropriatte club.Golfs about feel for distance and using the right tools(clubs) to cover the distance.Why would you need GPS to tell you a distance thats left to the hole when you may not cover it with the known distance of your irons? in which turn you have to manufacture a shot,so then theres no need for GPS  .I worked briefly in golf retail and selling Â£300+ GPS gadgets was quite frankly a big laugh between the sales assistants...theres Too many gimmicks nowdays that are making big cash for golf product companys,GPS waste of time and money just get out there and like Mr Hogan said feel the game.


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## fundy (Apr 17, 2012)

yawn

next youll be telling me a pro doesnt need a caddy


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

fundy said:



			yawn

next youll be telling me a pro doesnt need a caddy
		
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No dont be stupid pro`s need a caddy for various jobs on course...Bet you couldnt play to your 6.8 without the "AID" of your GPS  .


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

Well Shivas, as you explain it so simply I shall advertise my Bushnell and Skycaddie on the "for sale" section straight away!

And there was me thinking that, knowing the distance that I wanted to hit the ball and matching that to a club would help - silly me!


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## fundy (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			No dont be stupid pro`s need a caddy for various jobs on course...Bet you couldnt play to your 6.8 without the "AID" of your GPS  .
		
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Can't play at all at the moment lol

Sure I can play without a GPS but it makes it a whole lot easier to have it and have accurate yardages (and quicker than me pacing off 150 yd markers that are invariably inaccurate anyway). If nothing else makes me more confident I know what shot I need to hit and can then hence commit to that shot.

PS paid less than Â£100 for mine, Â£300 seems a bit toppy to me


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## chris661 (Apr 17, 2012)




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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

chrisd said:



			Well Shivas, as you explain it so simply I shall advertise my Bushnell and Skycaddie on the "for sale" section straight away!

And there was me thinking that, knowing the distance that I wanted to hit the ball and matching that to a club would help - silly me!
		
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I explained this in my post you dont always have the perfect distance to the hole for the distances you know you have for your clubs,so you have to read it by eye and compensate with the club.Wheres the need for GPS? does your club not have fairway markers?...Ive seen people get their GPS out on a par 3 :rofl:.


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## Val (Apr 17, 2012)

One does feel someone is fishing and getting bites


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I know many golfers use GPS nowdays but I feel it is just a very expensive gimmick and does not help improve your game at all and in fact is proberly detrimental to your game .The whole idea of golf is to works out the distance of each club before you hit the course,then read the distance off the hole on your scorecard and use the appropriate club.If you use a driver deduct that off the distance of the hole and use the relevent club to reach the green.Now if you dont hit a club the distance you know you can you work out from eye and course markers what distance you have left and chose an appropriatte club.Golfs about feel for distance and using the right tools(clubs) to cover the distance.Why would you need GPS to tell you a distance thats left to the hole when you may not cover it with the known distance of your irons? in which turn you have to manufacture a shot,so then theres no need for GPS  .I worked briefly in golf retail and selling Â£300+ GPS gadgets was quite frankly a big laugh between the sales assistants...theres Too many gimmicks nowdays that are making big cash for golf product companys,GPS waste of time and money just get out there and like Mr Hogan said feel the game.
		
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Total Tosh

I know how far I hit my irons (I measured them on my GPS!). At my level the it takes out any indecision and I can club to reach the centre of all greens more accurately. As most trouble is at the front this means I clear it with ease. More GIR thank you and if I hit the middle everytime no matter where the pin is it isn't the longest putt in the world

However it is the shots from <100 yards that my device has really helped. I can pick the wedge (PW 52 and 58) best suited to the shot and the flag and having worked hard on controlling distance can feel confident on getting it close.

Your attitude as a golf retailer explains a lot about why I only use my pro for the majority of my purchases. Isn't everything a gimmick. Longest driver, most forgiving irons, best spinning and distance ball. Its about choice and I'm happy with the one I made. 

Forgot to add they are also a huge help on new courses where in my experience yardage markers aren't always accurate and yardage books don't give an accurate picture without time wating pacing up and down to reference points


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## fundy (Apr 17, 2012)

So you only ever hit it in the fairway, never miss ther fairway and have an angle that cant be easily measured? Never seen a marker thats incorrect? Our club has recently acknowledged that one of our par 3 markers is wrong by 11 yards, you keep using the moveable markers and Ill use my GPS and we'll say no more about it


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## Wildrover (Apr 17, 2012)

Because the markers are invariably not right next to the distance plaque, and on some holes can make quite a bit of difference. I can't take anybody seriously who spells probably "proberly".


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## kid2 (Apr 17, 2012)

Well i havent bought a GPS simply because they are a little low on my list of priorities at the moment......But what i did do was download free caddie onto my android and i have to admit only for it last weekend i would definitely  have picked a club less than what i should have.....So for me i have a cheap alternative to a proper GPS but it works....I get the distance to within a metre of the front middle and back of the green.....
Its all i need really.


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## eltub1 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			No dont be stupid pro`s need a caddy for various jobs on course...Bet you couldnt play to your 6.8 without the "AID" of your GPS  .
		
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Well if he cant play to his h/cap without it all the more reason to use it!!!!!! 

Iv used one and mine only tells you front,middle and back, i find it very useful on courses your not used to playing and even on mine. Its good to know what your regularly hitting  your irons and as i play on a links course with wind its useful when in the wind to gauge the extra club you need into the wind etc...but luckily enough i can play without it too.. but its like a mobile phone now if i aint got it on me it feels weird.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Total Tosh

I know how far I hit my irons (I measured them on my GPS!). At my level the it takes out any indecision and I can club to reach the centre of all greens more accurately. As most trouble is at the front this means I clear it with ease. More GIR thank you and if I hit the middle everytime no matter where the pin is it isn't the longest putt in the world

However it is the shots from <100 yards that my device has really helped. I can pick the wedge (PW 52 and 58) best suited to the shot and the flag and having worked hard on controlling distance can feel confident on getting it close.

Your attitude as a golf retailer explains a lot about why I only use my pro for the majority of my purchases. Isn't everything a gimmick. Longest driver, most forgiving irons, best spinning and distance ball. Its about choice and I'm happy with the one I made. 

Forgot to add they are also a huge help on new courses where in my experience yardage markers aren't always accurate and yardage books don't give an accurate picture without time wating pacing up and down to reference points
		
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I cant understand why you would want to use GPS for 100yds in? this is a complete puzzle to me as the shorter the distance the more "Feel" is needed...You hit the nail on the head Homer theres too many gimmicks in golf and punters are well happy to spend their hard earned cash on.As for me in golf retail this was one of the reasons why I quit it as we would get people coming in and talked into the latest new club/gadget knowing they didnt need it.I would prefer to be more honest as a person than treat people like this and to be quite honest I went against the grain and told people if they didnt need something.


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## USER1999 (Apr 17, 2012)

There are two ways of approaching sub 100 yard shots. Clockface drills, where you have 3 swings for each wedge, and go by the distance, or, you can just grab any club and have a swish at it by feel.

Some players have this feel, others don't. If you don't, you will never get it. However much you practice. At this point a definite number will equate to one of your swings. So you need a yardage.

Any way, if I think I need a DMD, and I can afford one (two in my case), then who are you to tell me I don't need one?

I might think you don't need a car, but you might disagree.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

MY WORD HOW PROTECTIVE YOU GUYS ARE OVER YOUR GPS!! God knows what golfers did for the last 200 years before they were invented,its must have been terrible playing golf back then  .


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## Slab (Apr 17, 2012)

Is it true that the latest generation of GPS are out and come with a free belly putter, chipper & lipstick holder


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## kev_off_the_tee (Apr 17, 2012)

I believe that like everything i golf, distance is something you learn. I agree that once you know the distance its all about club choice, a good swing and good contact but without learning to read distances your lost as an improving golfer.

I for one struggle with reading distances and genuinely believe that using such a GPS device will teach me to read the yardage, which in turn could lead to me using a GPS less and less.

As for comments on caddys, they do alot of the work for a pro and almost always giving the yardages to the greens and obstacles. they also know their pro inside and out and in many cases make the club and swing choices. Unfortunately I'm neither good enough nor rich enough to warrant such a companion.


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			MY WORD HOW PROTECTIVE YOU GUYS ARE OVER YOUR GPS!! God knows what golfers did for the last 200 years before they were invented,its must have been terrible playing golf back then  .
		
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As they were only the wealthy idle rich they had more time to pace distances or use someone to do it for them!

I get the feeling that your on some sort of Papyt wind up!


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## Tiger (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			MY WORD HOW PROTECTIVE YOU GUYS ARE OVER YOUR GPS!! God knows what golfers did for the last 200 years before they were invented,its must have been terrible playing golf back then  .
		
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In the really old days didn't you get a caddy who knew the course like the back of his hand? And in the not quite so old but still pretty old days didn't every course have a decent course planner? 

PS I think your argument would carry more weight if you had Persimmon Woods in your bag...


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## GreiginFife (Apr 17, 2012)

Shivas, until recently I was in your camp. However, I bought a GPS (basic one that does front/middle/back) and used it for the first time at the weekend at a mate's course. 
I have played there a number of times and it's a very nice members club - not lacking cash or trimmings. I know how far I hit my irons and the last few times I have played at my mate's place there is a par 3 that the tee marker states is 173y... So for me that's a 5 iron. Have never hit that green, always over the back. 
Saturday with the GPS it was actually 159y to centre... that's a huge difference and made it more like a 7 iron. Drew the 7 and stuck it 4ft from the pin. 
Also noted that several of the 150 markers were 10-12y out as well. That's enough to tell me that the GPS is beneficial to my game. 
That's my tuppenceworth any ways.


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## Region3 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I know many golfers use GPS nowdays but I feel it is just a very expensive gimmick and does not help improve your game at all and in fact is proberly detrimental to your game .The whole idea of golf is to works out the distance of each club before you hit the course,then read the distance off the hole on your scorecard and use the appropriate club.If you use a driver deduct that off the distance of the hole and use the relevent club to reach the green.Now if you dont hit a club the distance you know you can you work out from eye and course markers what distance you have left and chose an appropriatte club.Golfs about feel for distance and using the right tools(clubs) to cover the distance.Why would you need GPS to tell you a distance thats left to the hole when you may not cover it with the known distance of your irons? in which turn you have to manufacture a shot,so then theres no need for GPS  .I worked briefly in golf retail and selling Â£300+ GPS gadgets was quite frankly a big laugh between the sales assistants...theres Too many gimmicks nowdays that are making big cash for golf product companys,GPS waste of time and money just get out there and like Mr Hogan said feel the game.
		
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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

chrisd said:



			As they were only the wealthy idle rich they had more time to pace distances or use someone to do it for them!

I get the feeling that your on some sort of Papyt wind up!
		
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Rubbish, golf has been played by all classes in the past,infact it was banned in Scotland on Sundays cos it was so popular with all classes....Not a wind up just my opinion on some useless tat people think they need.


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## Region3 (Apr 17, 2012)

Sales of lake balls to go up after everyone just takes 300yds off the hole length to work out their approach yardage!

:rofl:


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## Twire (Apr 17, 2012)

In your original post you state *"I feel it is just a very expensive gimmick and does not help improve your game at all and in fact is proberly detrimental to your game"* Then 2 posts later you come out with this.




shivas irons said:



			No dont be stupid pro`s need a caddy for various jobs on course...*Bet you couldnt play to your 6.8 without the "AID" of your GPS*  .
		
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Don't think I've seen someone contridict themselves so quickly.


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## BluenoseGolfer (Apr 17, 2012)

It's something I'd look into in the future, but atm with the level of my game I wouldn't get good use out of it as my ball striking and distances vary quite a lot


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## bobmac (Apr 17, 2012)

Are your views similar for the laser rangefinders?


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Not a wind up just my opinion on some useless tat people think they need.
		
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Rubbish, your definitely on a wind up!


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## JamesR (Apr 17, 2012)

My name's James & I use a GPS device.
I realised one day that I wasn't always certain that my drives went 350yds. As such I couldn't always be sure that by knocking 350 off the length of the hole, according to my scorecard, I was getting the correct distance for my approach shots. Particularly those over bunkers, ponds and trees.


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## smange (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			No dont be stupid pro`s need a caddy for various jobs on course...Bet you couldnt play to your 6.8 without the "AID" of your GPS  .
		
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And the caddies most important job is telling the pro his yardages which he has marked on the strokesaver using GPS

There is also no way the pros would shoot anywhere near the scores they do without the "AID" of said yardages either.


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

Gil_Emott said:



			I realised one day that I wasn't always certain that my drives went 350yds.
		
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Barely the forum average, must be into a headwind!


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

Twire said:



			In your original post you state *"I feel it is just a very expensive gimmick and does not help improve your game at all and in fact is proberly detrimental to your game"* Then 2 posts later you come out with this.






Don't think I've seen someone contridict themselves so quickly. 

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The "Aid" bit was all very tongue in cheek Mr Moderator  .Seriously though another argument against GPS is the fact that they do and its been proven slow down play quite considerably,you can mark off distance from a marker whilst walking to your ball,this ive done whilst caddy on the European Seniors and it works fine so dont tell me it does not because if its good enough for them I can assure you its good enough for you GPS guys!.Mobile phones + GPS=long round


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 17, 2012)

I had a longish lay-off from the game which coincided with the introduction of DMDs in the game. At first I was cynical and spouted similar sentiments as you Shivas about "the skill of judgement" "playing by feel" and using on course markers.

I then played a club match and my team-mate had a laser. In just one round I'd say he saved be about 3 shots as I was in danger of seriously over or under-clubbing, mainly due to hopelessly inaccurate 150 markers on the course (it was an away fixture so I had no other evidence to go on).

I was converted in one round to their value.

The era you speak of has passed for various reasons. Professional caddies don't exist at our level and yardage markers are treated with little respect by green staff who fling them all over the place when they need to move them.

Times have changed.


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

smange said:



			And the caddies most important job is telling the pro his yardages which he has marked on the strokesaver using GPS

There is also no way the pros would shoot anywhere near the scores they do without the "AID" of said yardages either.
		
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I usually go to Wentworth on the last practice day for the BMW and both the caddie and the players use them to check and double check yardages for their books, and last year I actually saw Darren Clark buy and pay for a Nikon range finder from the rep.


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## JamesR (Apr 17, 2012)

That's just it Chris, how much does a heavy wind affect your drives?
You should know this if you are to get rid of your GPS.


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 17, 2012)

_shivas irons "another argument against GPS is the fact that they do *and its been proven *slow down play quite considerably"_


Would be interested to read that study. Do you have a link please?


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## JamesR (Apr 17, 2012)

I reckon mine speeds up play.
I just get to my ball, look at the GPS and choose the club accordingly.
Rather than using strokesavers, 150 markers, judgement based on length of tee shot etc must be alot quicker.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

smange said:



			And the caddies most important job is telling the pro his yardages which he has marked on the strokesaver using GPS

There is also no way the pros would shoot anywhere near the scores they do without the "AID" of said yardages either.
		
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Really so I guess those 59`s and very low scores achieved on the PGA tour before GPS dont count then.....You would be suprised how many PGA guys still mark out or get their caddies to mark out the course old style.


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

Gil_Emott said:



			That's just it Chris, how much does a heavy wind affect your drives?
You should know this if you are to get rid of your GPS.
		
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Perhaps I will take the view tha Shivas is talking bo**ocks and keep them after all, cheers Gil   :whoo:


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## Val (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Rubbish, golf has been played by all classes in the past,infact it was banned in Scotland on Sundays cos it was so popular with all classes....Not a wind up just my opinion on some useless tat people think they need.
		
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Im surprised your not using a gutty ball, mashie, spoon etc


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## Region3 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			You would be suprised how many PGA guys still mark out or get their caddies to mark out the course old style.
		
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So they DO have accurate yardages then?

Out of interest, how long does it take a caddie to mark out the course?


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 17, 2012)

Gil_Emott said:



			I reckon mine speeds up play.
I just get to my ball, look at the GPS and choose the club accordingly.
Rather than using strokesavers, 150 markers, judgement based on length of tee shot etc must be alot quicker.
		
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spot on here quick look at the screen club out of the bag away we go!


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## bladeplayer (Apr 17, 2012)

Up until last week i would have argued along  with you telling people there is no need for them , through winnings & vouchers i purchased a garmin G5 ( see the review section) for â‚¬100 of my own bobs.. its a great  piece of equipment man .. but as i always say if you want one get one & if you dont then dont.. simples .. maybe you should try one before you have such strong feelings against them tho ..


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 17, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			maybe you should try one before you have such strong feelings against them tho ..
		
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Totally agree. I wasn't fussed about the idea of them until I tried one and saw what it could do to benefit me... now converted and will get something when funds allow.


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## MKDave (Apr 17, 2012)

I use the GPS on my iPhone (lets not debate about using phones on the course) cost me about Â£20 and it certainly makes my life easier playing new courses for working out hazrd yardages. Also for par 5's knowing how far I have to lay up to 150, 125 or 100 yards is very useful. Never again will I have to ask my mates "how far do you reckon that bunker is?" and receive 3 different distances usually covering anywhere from 100 yards to 200 yards.


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## bladeplayer (Apr 17, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Totally agree. I wasn't fussed about the idea of them until I tried one and saw what it could do to benefit me... now converted and will get something when funds allow.
		
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The G3 was on special @tesco direct guys were discussing it last week on here


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## BTatHome (Apr 17, 2012)

OP, Biggest load of cods wallop I've read for a long time.

I'd love to watch you pacing out those drives


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## Rooter (Apr 17, 2012)

BTatHome said:



			OP, Biggest load of cods wallop I've read for a long time.

I'd love to watch you pacing out those drives 

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Maybe he has little legs, but can drive like bubba!? How accurate is pacing out anyway? I reckon I would be rubbish at it!


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## TheMetalMan0 (Apr 17, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			The G3 was on special @tesco direct guys were discussing it last week on here
		
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Bargain!
Used mine at the weekend, great little piece of kit and definitely sped up my club selection.  Also gives confidence to give it a wallop and commit as you should have the right club in hand.


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## Matty (Apr 17, 2012)

I have only just bought a GPS to answer a question about my golf - something the OP took for granted.

So, on the course I know how far I am from the green from the course markers but beyond a 9 iron I'm clueless about how far I'm actually hitting my clubs. So, I got a GPS to measure it for me accurately so I can find out for every club in my bag while still playing the game and enjoying it.

The other way is to spend hours in a filed hitting shot after shot and pacing them out hoping that my pace is somewhere near to a yard in length.

Sorry, but your reasons for NOT buying one can jsut as easily justify the purchase in the first place. #epicfail


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



_shivas irons "another argument against GPS is the fact that they do *and its been proven *slow down play quite considerably"_


Would be interested to read that study. Do you have a link please?
		
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I`m sure the R&A looked into this some years back and were concerned with slow play when using GPS and although allowing clubs to let club golfers use them apart from the skill level one of the reasons that they dont allow the elite players to use them in tournaments was the concern over slow play.


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## chris661 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I`m sure the R&A looked into this some years back and were concerned with slow play when using GPS and although allowing clubs to let club golfers use them apart from the skill level one of the reasons that they dont allow the elite players to use them in tournaments was the concern over slow play.
		
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^^ citation required


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## thegogg (Apr 17, 2012)

PS I think your argument would carry more weight if you had Persimmon Woods in your bag...[/QUOTE]

Just read this post and I just can't believe he's being serious and have to totally agree with Tigers quote above. I'd also be interested to see where the conclusive evidence stating that DMD's slow the game down has come from as everything I've read about them suggest the total opposite.


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## BTatHome (Apr 17, 2012)

I wonder what elite players you may be talking about? The PGA and EGU both allow GPS in domestic tournaments.

I don't believe that R&A have ever made such a statement that it worsens the slow play issue, the only times have ever seen them mention it was when they said the benefits against slow play were minimal ... Which is hardly surprising as unless the whole field is using them then you won't see a benefit on the overall round times.


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I`m sure the R&A looked into this some years back and were concerned with slow play when using GPS and although allowing clubs to let club golfers use them apart from the skill level one of the reasons that they dont allow the elite players to use them in tournaments was the concern over slow play.
		
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I heard Colin Montgomerie telling some amateurs in a Pro-am, about 2 years ago, that he thinks that the R and A will allow pro's to use them on the tour within a few years.


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## rosecott (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I explained this in my post you dont always have the perfect distance to the hole for the distances you know you have for your clubs,so you have to read it by eye and compensate with the club.Wheres the need for GPS? does your club not have fairway markers?...Ive seen people get their GPS out on a par 3 :rofl:.
		
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And why not?

If you haven't played the hole before, you want the distances to the front, middle and back - on some greens there could 40 yards or more from front to back.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

BTatHome said:



			I wonder what elite players you may be talking about? The PGA and EGU both allow GPS in domestic tournaments.

I don't believe that R&A have ever made such a statement that it worsens the slow play issue, the only times have ever seen them mention it was when they said the benefits against slow play were minimal ... Which is hardly surprising as unless the whole field is using them then you won't see a benefit on the overall round times.
		
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Elite players, tour players governed by the USGA and the R&A for both their respective tours.


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## rosecott (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Rubbish, golf has been played by all classes in the past,infact it was banned in Scotland on Sundays cos it was so popular with all classes....Not a wind up just my opinion on some useless tat people think they need.
		
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I seem to remember, Shivas, that in one of your early posts, you said that you had been doing a lot of caddying. That would make you the same waste of space as a GPS as that is what you would be to the golfer you were caddying for.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

rosecott said:



			And why not?

If you haven't played the hole before, you want the distances to the front, middle and back - on some greens there could 40 yards or more from front to back.
		
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Ok each to he`s own,I will take the distance from the scorecard and work out by "eye" the width length of the green...


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

rosecott said:



			I seem to remember, Shivas, that in one of your early posts, you said that you had been doing a lot of caddying. That would make you the same waste of space as a GPS as that is what you would be to the golfer you were caddying for.
		
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As ive said before theres much more to caddying than just working out your players yardages.


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## Captainron (Apr 17, 2012)

I have a Laser Rangefinder and think that it is as valuable as my putter in termsss of scoring. I know exact distances to the flag/bunkers/trees etcc which allows me to make a fully infomred choice about which club I should go with. I still have to factor in temparature wind and lie which is a skill. Pacing off distances and doing addition/subtraction isn't worth the effort in my opinion! I would recommend a range finder/gps to every single golfer who wanted to improve.


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Ok each to he`s own,I will take the distance from the scorecard and work out by "eye" the width length of the green...
		
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Isn't that the good think about golf, you do it your way and we're free to do it ours !


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## Bratty (Apr 17, 2012)

chrisd said:



			Isn't that the good think about golf, you do it your way and we're free to do it ours !
		
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Just please don't try imposing your views on others.


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## kid2 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I`m sure the R&A looked into this some years back and were concerned with slow play when using GPS and although allowing clubs to let club golfers use them apart from the skill level one of the reasons that they dont allow the elite players to use them in tournaments was the concern over slow play.
		
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Buddy i think that you are way off the mark with your findings......
GPS dont slow down play.....
What slows down play are golfers that are either wont or dont educate themselves in the basic etiquette of the game before they start to play it or those that are completely ignorant to the basic rules of courses!

In my opinion GPS devices would be of great help to any player.....Especially if they take the time to really make use of them.... i.e learn exactly how far they hit each club in normal conditions.......
How in all honestly can you say that they slow the game down?

If the educated player knows his carry distance for each club while he is walking to his ball he is getting the correct yardages to  the green and its just a matter of pulling the club from the bag and letting one go....

He's certainly not going to be arsing and faffing about pacing around the fairways from yardage points.....That in my opinion wastes time unless done religiously to the point where your so rapped up in your own game that you wont even socialise with the people that you are playing with.


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## kid2 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Ok each to he`s own,I will take the distance from the scorecard and work out by "eye" the width length of the green...
		
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How would you manage to do that for an elevated green from 150 yards out?


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2012)

Yet more Conversational Gonads - seems to be becoming more prevalent recently....


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## CliveW (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			,you can mark off distance from a marker whilst walking to your ball,this ive done whilst caddy on the European Seniors and it works fine so dont tell me it does not because if its good enough for them I can assure you its good enough for you GPS guys!.Mobile phones + GPS=long round 

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This of course assumes that you have played past the marker post. If you are short then surely you need to walk from your ball to the marker and back therefore taking more time.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

kid2 said:



			How would you manage to do that for an elevated green from 150 yards out?
		
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Well obviously I would take one more club and de club very slightly and slightly open the face,how would you play it??


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

Bratty said:



			Just please don't try imposing your views on others.
		
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I still think that he's on a Papyt wind up - nothing he says makes any sense to me. 

They are legal, definitely are faster than pacing up and down, better than guessing and almost every posting on here  is pro them, and yet he keeps on trying to convince us we are all wrong. Ever thought of running for Parliament Shivas?


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

CliveW said:



			This of course assumes that you have played past the marker post. If you are short then surely you need to walk from your ball to the marker and back therefore taking more time. 

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Rely on bunkers and trees on the hole that are shown/marked on a scorecard.


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Rely on bunkers and trees on the hole that are shown/marked on a scorecard.
		
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Assuming you have this info on the card.....

Many don't. Or it's completely indecipherable...

A GPS is nothing more than an electronic Scoresaver - a million times easier to use and more accurate than pacing - definitely more accurate than guessing.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

chrisd said:



			Isn't that the good think about golf, you do it your way and we're free to do it ours !
		
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Absolutely,I`m just giving my opinion on something and members are entitled to their opinions,but what I will say that has suprised me has been the pathetic unconstructive childish comments that have been made to me,Golf for some reason nowdays seems to attract some really stupid people .


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## chris661 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Absolutely,I`m just giving my opinion on something and members are entitled to their opinions,but what I will say that has suprised me has been the pathetic unconstructive childish comments that have been made to me,Golf for some reason nowdays seems to attract some really stupid people .
		
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:rofl: :rofl: Oh the irony.


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Golf for some reason nowdays seems to attract some really stupid people .
		
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Doesn't it just!


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## kid2 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Well obviously I would take one more club and de club very slightly and slightly open the face,how would you play it??
		
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So you are basically guessing the depth and width of the green then!


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## Val (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I`m sure the R&A looked into this some years back and were concerned with slow play when using GPS and although allowing clubs to let club golfers use them apart from the skill level one of the reasons that they dont allow the elite players to use them in tournaments was the concern over slow play.
		
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If they are concerned then why are they not banned for use in comps


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## Val (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Absolutely,I`m just giving my opinion on something and members are entitled to their opinions,but what I will say that has suprised me has been the pathetic unconstructive childish comments that have been made to me,Golf for some reason nowdays seems to attract some really stupid people .
		
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He he touchÃ© :rofl:


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## Foxholer (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			The "Aid" bit was all very tongue in cheek Mr Moderator  .Seriously though another argument against GPS is the fact that they do and its been proven slow down play quite considerably,you can mark off distance from a marker whilst walking to your ball,this ive done whilst caddy on the European Seniors and it works fine so dont tell me it does not because if its good enough for them I can assure you its good enough for you GPS guys!.Mobile phones + GPS=long round 

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Certainly seem to speed up play, when used properly, in all the 'tests' that I've seen.

As GPS/Rangefinders are not legal during the actual competition (Elite/PGA/European - except a couple) so, pacing out from the markers etc is what's required. And there are loads more markers (though no 150yd post) actually added to assist caddies/players during those comps. And they are given pin-sheets too, so distance to flag is much more accurate.

Who was your player btw? And when was it?

Anyway, wind-up or not, I believe you fundamentally agree that knowing the correct yardage is important. It's only the method by which you achieve it that we are discussing - GPS, Laser, Pacing or 'by eye'. So you are welcome to carry on wandering about finding a reference point to pace your distance - or simply guess. Just remember to let me through cos checking my SkyCaddie, zapping the pin with my Bushnell or checking the Pro Guide for the distance from that sprinkler-head is much quicker!


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## MashieNiblick (Apr 17, 2012)

kid2 said:



			So you are basically guessing the depth and width of the green then!
		
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Kid, that's how the game was played at club level since it began until about 3 years ago when DMDs arrived and we all decided we needed to know the distance to the nearest yard.

I very rarely pace out distances either. Nor do most people I know who play  without DMDs. I certainly don't walk ahead to a marker. I might pace off from a marker as I walk up to my ball but I nearly always lose count any way.  Mostly I just "guess". I look at the marker (if there is one) I  look at my ball I look at the flag. I pick a club and fire away. It's  actually quite fun thinking is it the right club? (no water to carry on our course :smirk If it is well done me! 

I'm pretty ambivalent about GPS/DMDs. I don't use one and feel that judging distance is part of the art of the game. People did and do manage to play without them. And yes I would guess (estimate) the depth of the green!  Mistakes happen and I accept it as part of the game. I can however understand why people like and use them. That's fair enough.

As I said on another thread, playing with partners who have them I can see the value and there have been times when I have been told the distance and changed clubs so I don't dispute they can help. However I don't think they are as essential as some people think.

I don't think they have any significant impact on the pace of play one way or another. That is far more the result of other factors (see Bobmac's thread on that topic).

One thing I have noticed is that after playing golf for 40 years since I was a kid, I judge most distances up to about 250 yards in terms of golf shots. If someone were to ask me how far a particular object is  I would first think what club I would use to reach it then convert that into yards.


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## kid2 (Apr 17, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			Kid, that's how the game was played at club level since it began until about 3 years ago when DMDs arrived and we all decided we needed to know the distance to the nearest yard.

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I know pal....Im just trying to give my opinion on what the OP said......He tells us that he caddied for years but he seems to think that he can judge the distance by eye to the nearest yard better than a GPS ......

Thats why i posted about the elevated green....Im a bit perplexed as to how he can tell the depth and width of an elevated green from over 150 yards when he cant see the putting surface to tell how big it is.....


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Certainly seem to speed up play, when used properly, in all the 'tests' that I've seen.

As GPS/Rangefinders are not legal during the actual competition (Elite/PGA/European - except a couple) so, pacing out from the markers etc is what's required. And there are loads more markers (though no 150yd post) actually added to assist caddies/players during those comps. And they are given pin-sheets too, so distance to flag is much more accurate.

Who was your player btw? And when was it?

Anyway, wind-up or not, I believe you fundamentally agree that knowing the correct yardage is important. It's only the method by which you achieve it that we are discussing - GPS, Laser, Pacing or 'by eye'. So you are welcome to carry on wandering about finding a reference point to pace your distance - or simply guess. Just remember to let me through cos checking my SkyCaddie, zapping the pin with my Bushnell or checking the Pro Guide for the distance from that sprinkler-head is much quicker!
		
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Ive caddied for Jimmy Heggarty http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=83/index.html
and an American chap called Gary Wintz who managed to win this http://www.europeantour.com/seniort...2808/leaderboard/index.html?showLeaderboard=Y
Ive also caddied for a couple of pro Argentinia`s and some Amateurs for the Seniors Open.
Try it its fun,but dont bring your GPS  .


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## Iaing (Apr 17, 2012)

As far as slowing up play, GPS units don't.
But laser rangefinders do.


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

kid2 said:



			I know pal....Im just trying to give my opinion on what the OP said......He tells us that he caddied for years but he seems to think that he can judge the distance by eye to the nearest yard better than a GPS ......

Thats why i posted about the elevated green....Im a bit perplexed as to how he can tell the depth and width of an elevated green from over 150 yards when he cant see the putting surface to tell how big it is.....
		
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I`ll use eye but mainly yardage from the markers and points on course,bunkers etc,as for the green well on our home courses it doesent matter does it cos we know it and as for a new unplayed course try a yardage chart,oh sorry you dont get them at you local muni do you.....


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## Foxholer (Apr 17, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			One thing I have noticed is that after playing golf for 40 years since I was a kid, I judge most distances up to about 250 yards in terms of golf shots. If someone were to ask me how far a particular object is  I would first think what club I would use to reach it then convert that into yards.

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H'mm. I'm relatively new to golf (only been playing 20 years) and haven't noticed myself doing that yet. I do, however measure distances on a golf course in distances I can relate to elsewhere. Strangely, as I didn't play it all that much, Cricket Pitch length (22yds), or multiples thereof seems to be the most useful. I'm pretty accurate (within a yard) of anything under 20yds and generally within 2-3 up to about about 90.

Still prefer to use a Bushnell/GPS  though as that gives me a certainty that I seem to need.


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## rosecott (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I`ll use eye but mainly yardage from the markers and points on course,bunkers etc,as for the green well on our home courses it doesent matter does it cos we know it and as for a new unplayed course try a yardage chart,oh sorry you dont get them at you local muni do you.....
		
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Careful Shivas, you are in danger of becoming a t****r, if not already there.


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## Val (Apr 17, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Careful Shivas, you are in danger of becoming a t****r, if not already there.
		
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:clap: :thup:


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Careful Shivas, you are in danger of becoming a t****r, if not already there.
		
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At least not a muni t****r eh  .


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## rosecott (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			At least not a muni t****r eh  .
		
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At least we now know where you stand.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Ive caddied for Jimmy Heggarty http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=83/index.html
and an American chap called Gary Wintz who managed to win this http://www.europeantour.com/seniort...2808/leaderboard/index.html?showLeaderboard=Y
Ive also caddied for a couple of pro Argentinia`s and some Amateurs for the Seniors Open.
Try it its fun,but dont bring your GPS  .
		
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You said there is a lot more to caddying than working out the yardages and you are right. Three things as far as most tour caddies are concerned and straight out of Andy Prodgers mouth at the BMW last year. Turn up, keep up and shut up.

You've changed tack more often than I change teaching pros and have supplied a lot of opinions without any evidence. You say it has been proven that they slowed play down. Where's the evidence. You said you thnk the R&A have done some study. If so show me the facts. In fact, I'm pretty sure one of the monthly magazines did a feature a while back and had one guy relying on just his eyes, a guy with a strokesaver, a guy with GPS and a guy in a buggy and there was no evidence given that GPS was actually any quicker or slower. Buggy was slowest. Strokesaver guy next as he had to pace the yardages and eyesight and GPS were almost exactly the same. I'll dig around in my back copies of magazines and see if I can find the edition in question.


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## kid2 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			oh sorry you dont get them at you local muni do you.....
		
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And there appears the proverbial :smirk:


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## shivas irons (Apr 17, 2012)

I think i`m going to close this thread now and give up on it cos its getting silly and off track.Use your GPS by all means but for me eye and yardage either from markers or points on course is the only true way to play this great game properly .END OF.


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## Piece (Apr 17, 2012)

Traditional method: Ive worked out its probably 150y to go
GPS: I know it's 155y to go.

Why make the game harder than it needs to be?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I think i`m going to close this thread now and give up on it cos its getting silly and off track.Use your GPS by all means but for me eye and yardage either from markers or points on course is the only true way to play this great game properly .END OF.
		
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Don't see it getting off track at all. People are only responding to what you've written and usually to ask for your proof to back up your remarks. Sounds like someone throwing his niblick and feathered ball out the pram. Isn't that the true way to play the game. Not sure how you can actually justify to anyone else your last statement. It might be for you but pretty sure others will argue that


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## USER1999 (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I think i`m going to close this thread now and give up on it cos its getting silly and off track.Use your GPS by all means but for me eye and yardage either from markers or points on course is the only true way to play this great game properly .END OF.
		
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End of what? The only way to play golf truly? Guff! The only way to play golf truly is persimmon, hickory, gutta percha, greens cut by sheep, tweed, ties, boots with hob nails, leather bags, and caddies. Caddies who know the course, and can give a yardage. 

Bizarrely, the nearest we get to these times is knowing the yardage. All the rest is gone by the way side. Truly, a dmd is the nearest we get to how golf used to be played.


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I think i`m going to close this thread now and give up on it cos its getting silly and off track.Use your GPS by all means but for me eye and yardage either from markers or points on course is the only true way to play this great game properly .END OF.
		
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So you look like the Guy in your Avatar do you?

Welcome to the 19th Century............


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## bluetoon (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I think i`m going to close this thread now and give up on it cos its getting silly and off track.Use your GPS by all means but for me eye and yardage either from markers or points on course is the only true way to play this great game properly .END OF.
		
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Getting silly?:rofl:

Its' been silly from post #1


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## Slime (Apr 17, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I know many golfers use GPS nowdays but I feel it is just a *very expensive* gimmick and *does not help* improve your game at all and in fact is *proberly detrimental* to your game .
		
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Dear *shivas (papyt) irons,*
I've now got a GPS............it cost me Â£1.28. First time I used it was at Reigate Hill. Their course planners cost Â£4.00. So..............to summarise, I've used it once and already it has sped up the pace of play, knocked shots of my scote & it's even making me money. Didn't need a course planner @ Â£4 which makes me Â£2.72 up on the deal..................*and I've only used it once!*

You muppet!


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## Region3 (Apr 17, 2012)

A serious question.

Why should being able to judge distances by eye be an integral part of the game. I am rubbish at it, no exaggeration, totally rubbish.

If my swing and short game, putting etc is good enough to get me round in 79 for example, why should I be handicapped because of something physical (eyes/brain) and suddenly maybe not be able to break 80?


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## chrisd (Apr 17, 2012)

Don't you just get peed off when right muppets tell you what how should and shouldn't play golf. 

My playing partner is awesome at guessing distances and would never use a GPS/laser  - I am useless at guessing, so I used to pace it, or use a stroke save and now use modern technology, owning a laser and a Skycaddie and deciding which one to use on the day.

 I do love it when we have personal opinions forced upon us but at least, unlike Papyt, he didn't say that it was all a wind up, although I cant believe anyone would write the crap that Shivas has written as a seriously held view!


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## rosecott (Apr 17, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I do love it when we have personal opinions forced upon us but at least, unlike Papyt, he didn't say that it was all a wind up,
		
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Whatever he says now, papyt wasn't a wind-up - I'm sure I've met him.


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## garyinderry (Apr 17, 2012)

couldnt be arsed to use one. im pretty good at working out distances. plus im tight as a ducks arse and wouldnt spend Â£300 quid on something i couldnt hit a ball with.


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## Region3 (Apr 17, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			wouldnt spend Â£300 quid on something i couldnt hit a ball with.
		
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You've laid the groundwork there for someone more evil than I am.


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## MashieNiblick (Apr 17, 2012)

Region3 said:



			A serious question.

Why should being able to judge distances by eye be an integral part of the game. I am rubbish at it, no exaggeration, totally rubbish.

If my swing and short game, putting etc is good enough to get me round in 79 for example, why should I be handicapped because of something physical (eyes/brain) and suddenly maybe not be able to break 80?
		
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Good question.

As someone who feels that way my thinking is that as the game developed it was about trying to get the ball to a target a certain distance away. Part of the skill in my view is judging is how hard do you hit it to do that.

Imagine a long putt. You are judging how hard to hit the ball so it rolls to the hole. That is part of the skill involved. It might be 40 ft it might be 50ft. But you don't necessarily need to know the exact distance. You just use your eye and judgement to try to hit the ball the correct distance. Now it might be a chip say 20 or 30 yards. Same applies, but now you also choose whethether to loft it or run it. 

Now just increase the distances. Instead of 40 or 50 feet its 90 or 100, or 150 yards. In the original game you might only have 2 or 3 clubs so you are not trying to match a particular club to a particular distance. Like the long putt or chip you would have had to use your judgement to hit the ball hard enough to reach the hole. You'd have to factor in the terrain and the wind then execute the shot. The ball flies a bit then and bumps and runs over the humps and hollows to the hole. Have you hit it hard enough? If so it's a good shot. If you could do it every time you'd be a good golfer. If you couldn't you wouldn't be. That's the way the game started and that is why I believe it is one of the original skills of the game.


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## garyinderry (Apr 17, 2012)

Region3 said:



			You've laid the groundwork there for someone more evil than I am.



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what do you mean? im a little slow here tonight?


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## Scottjd1 (Apr 17, 2012)

Iaing said:



			As far as slowing up play, GPS units don't.
But laser rangefinders do.
		
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Really? How so?


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			what do you mean? im a little slow here tonight? 

Click to expand...

He's probably warning you of the fact that someone with a mind to be cruel will be along soon to tell you that you've already spent over Â£300 on something that you can't hit the ball with...

On another note, i'm also interested in how laser rangefinders slow play down. I use mine whilst waiting for other players to play, or while approaching my ball. I would guess that it has a neutral effect on the length of time played due to the fact that it speeds up the decision making process. Actually, I don't really care. THis thread is ridiculous in the extreme, and i'm slightly disappointed in myself for posting on it.


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## garyinderry (Apr 18, 2012)

if you add them all together then yeah Â£300 :whoo:


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## chris661 (Apr 18, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			if you add them all together then yeah Â£300 :whoo:
		
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300 squid wha you buying? There is no way you need to spend that to get a gps or laser.


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## Val (Apr 18, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			couldnt be arsed to use one. im pretty good at working out distances. plus im tight as a ducks arse and wouldnt spend Â£300 quid on something i couldnt hit a ball with.
		
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Irons, driver?


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## Tiger (Apr 18, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			Good question.As someone who feels that way my thinking is that as the game developed it was about trying to get the ball to a target a certain distance away. Part of the skill in my view is judging is how hard do you hit it to do that.Imagine a long putt. You are judging how hard to hit the ball so it rolls to the hole. That is part of the skill involved. It might be 40 ft it might be 50ft. But you don't necessarily need to know the exact distance. You just use your eye and judgement to try to hit the ball the correct distance. Now it might be a chip say 20 or 30 yards. Same applies, but now you also choose whethether to loft it or run it. Now just increase the distances. Instead of 40 or 50 feet its 90 or 100, or 150 yards. In the original game you might only have 2 or 3 clubs so you are not trying to match a particular club to a particular distance. Like the long putt or chip you would have had to use your judgement to hit the ball hard enough to reach the hole. You'd have to factor in the terrain and the wind then execute the shot. The ball flies a bit then and bumps and runs over the humps and hollows to the hole. Have you hit it hard enough? If so it's a good shot. If you could do it every time you'd be a good golfer. If you couldn't you wouldn't be. That's the way the game started and that is why I believe it is one of the original skills of the game.
		
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This is probably the best post on the thread. There are quite a few people in my swindle that have a great eye for a yardage. One of them doesn't do yardages he does clubs. He looks at how far it is to a green and will equate the distance to let's say a six iron. He'll then adjust based on factors such as the wind etc. he is normally pretty accurate. There is another guy a play with who has tremendous feel inside 80 yards he's got brilliant touch. Doesn't need to know how far it is just sticks it where he wants it to land. I respect both of them for their skill. 

BUT

In all sports advancements are made to help people at the top end and eventually they filter through to us. These advancements might be about developing your body, nutrition, equipment, technique. I guess in football it doesn't matter how light, supple or responsive you make David Beckham's football boot he still needs to use his eye to judge the weight of a 60 yard cross field pass. I'm not Beckham so more often than not I'd look for an easier ten foot pass. 

Going back to golf, Luke Donald can hit a perfect 63 yard pitch. I'm not Luke Donald but I still have to make the shot. So I use clockface drills because I have no feel, I carry four wedges so I have more yardages I can cover and I use my GPS so I know it's 63yards. So Mashie whilst I respect the guys with the skill of knowing with their eye how far the ball will travel I don't have that skill. So like Region3 DMDs are a god send. 

Golf is hard enough as it is so any small thing that makes it a little easier or more fun I'll take it. I can't hit it where I want consistently but it's nice that when I do I based my assumptions on accurate information and am not stuck in a bunker or over the back of the green.


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## Val (Apr 18, 2012)

I understand the post on feeling/guessing the distance and Ive always been pretty good at that, someone was mocked on here for using a gps at 100 yds however for me this is where it came into it's own.

 A nice smooth 56 wedge for me is 85 yards, only last week I had a sub 100 yard shot (knew that from the fairway marker) to the green on a long narrow green on our course, flag was right up the back of the green which is 2 tiered (important to get on the right level) and I was going 3/4 PW on the shot, GPS suggest 90 yards to the back of the green, flag was no more than 5 or 6 in from the back, I hit a nice 56 to 2 feet and canned the putt.

Without the GPS I would never have played it like that, these things help no end from all yardages.


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## One Planer (Apr 18, 2012)

My take on this thread is very simple. If you want to use one, please feel free.

Personally I don't. I believe it was Murph who said earlier in the thread about some players doing thing by eye and feel, this is me. I enjoy the challenge of "guestimating" my yardages or using markers and playing the shot I see, I don't always hit the green, but I'm never a far off it.

As an example. I played Wychwood park in Crewe on Monday. Normally when I play a new course I buy the course shot saver, this time I forgot, so played the whole course by "feel" and "gestimations" from markers and sprinklers and played to my handicap.

As I've said. I have no issue with people using GPS. A collegue of mine was a partner when we played Izacc Walton GC ans he had a Golf Buddy and I thought it was fantastic!!! Accurate, quick, simple....... But you still have to play the shot correctly.

What pi$$es me off are the people who GPS themselves to the green, Knob it 20 yards, then GPS it again!!!  That's my only "negative" with them though.


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## Scottjd1 (Apr 18, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			On another note, i'm also interested in how laser rangefinders slow play down. I use mine whilst waiting for other players to play, or while approaching my ball. I would guess that it has a neutral effect on the length of time played due to the fact that it speeds up the decision making process. Actually, I don't really care. THis thread is ridiculous in the extreme, and i'm slightly disappointed in myself for posting on it.
		
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Couldnt agree more...


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## BTatHome (Apr 18, 2012)

Gareth said:



			What pi$$es me off are the people who GPS themselves to the green, Knob it 20 yards, then GPS it again!!!  That's my only "negative" with them though.
		
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what was he doing when he GPS'd it again? I never seen anyone GPS'ing anything, certainly mine just sits on my bag. Don't touch it generally until I have to switch it off at the end. Look at it when selecting my club and that's it.


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 18, 2012)

isnt life full of gimmicks everything we do for example 3D hd televsion why when its not neccessary as an old black and white protable does the same job, porsche ferrari  4x4 why when you can only do 70 on a motorway if your lucky!! and a beat up old cortina will still handle that.
its all about choices if you want the latest technologies GPS even graphite shafts adjustable drivers etc then why not you pays your money and takes your choice, each to there own.


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## Snelly (Apr 18, 2012)

I have some sympathy with the OP's view (however insensitively and clumsily he / she has conveyed it) and certainly support the erudite postings of Mashie on this thread.

I have just got a GPS and it certainly made a difference the first time I used it.  I made three changes to club selections during the round and probably improved my score as a result by two strokes.  

The second time I used it was last week and it was completely irrelevant. 

The difference between the two situations was that I was played well in the first round and dreadfully in the second.  My point being that when hitting the ball beautifully, I have a very good idea of how far it will travel with a given club with a full shot. Consequently, the precision of a GPS is very helpful.  Conversely, when my timing was miles out last Thursday, I didn't really know if my 3 iron was going to go 75 or 220 yards.  Therefore, knowing the precise distance was utterly irrelevant.

In a wider sense, I think this view can be applied to golfers generally. If you are a good, consistent ball striker and know how far you are roughly going to hit the ball with a given club for the majority of the time then yes, I can understand why precise yardages are useful and helpful.  However, if you are not one of the few that this description applies to, then I think that a GPS device, whilst it may give you a sense of confidence, won't make you hit the ball better and will have a negligible effect on your score.   You will still be hitting the ball inconsistent distances so the precision of the yardage isn't so important. You roughly hit a 7 iron a given distance so make a rough guess and get on with the game.  Amateur golf from cat 2 and upwards is not about exact yardages, it is about trying to make a half decent connection with the ball in roughly the right direction.  A game of approximations and percentages, not exact precision.

Similar arguments can be applied to high handicappers with all the latest kit. Doesn't really make any difference.


All that said, I do not in any way think that people shouldn't have GPS devices for golf.  It's up to you - free country and all that.....


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## GreiginFife (Apr 18, 2012)

pbrown7582 said:



			isnt life full of gimmicks everything we do for example 3D hd televsion why when its not neccessary as an old black and white protable does the same job, porsche ferrari  4x4 why when you can only do 70 on a motorway if your lucky!! and a beat up old cortina will still handle that.
its all about choices if you want the latest technologies GPS even graphite shafts adjustable drivers etc then why not you pays your money and takes your choice, each to there own.
		
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Similar to what I was thinking. How many of the bits of kit we use have what once was a gimmick in them, Graphite shafts, cavity irons, corded grips, weighted drivers, soft insert putters, 2/3/4/5 piece balls, contour heads... the list is quite long. 
Point is, technology is used in every aspect of life to attempt to improve or make life easier. Sports of all sorts harness and utilize this technology so why should golf be any different?


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## chrisd (Apr 18, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I have some sympathy with the OP's view (however insensitively and clumsily he / she has conveyed it) and certainly support the erudite postings of Mashie on this thread.

I have just got a GPS and it certainly made a difference the first time I used it.  I made three changes to club selections during the round and probably improved my score as a result by two strokes.  

The second time I used it was last week and it was completely irrelevant. 

The difference between the two situations was that I was played well in the first round and dreadfully in the second.  My point being that when hitting the ball beautifully, I have a very good idea of how far it will travel with a given club with a full shot. Consequently, the precision of a GPS is very helpful.  Conversely, when my timing was miles out last Thursday, I didn't really know if my 3 iron was going to go 75 or 220 yards.  Therefore, knowing the precise distance was utterly irrelevant.

In a wider sense, I think this view can be applied to golfers generally. If you are a good, consistent ball striker and know how far you are roughly going to hit the ball with a given club for the majority of the time then yes, I can understand why precise yardages are useful and helpful.  However, if you are not one of the few that this description applies to, then I think that a GPS device, whilst it may give you a sense of confidence, won't make you hit the ball better and will have a negligible effect on your score.   You will still be hitting the ball inconsistent distances so the precision of the yardage isn't so important. You roughly hit a 7 iron a given distance so make a rough guess and get on with the game.  Amateur golf from cat 2 and upwards is not about exact yardages, it is about trying to make a half decent connection with the ball in roughly the right direction.  A game of approximations and percentages, not exact precision.

Similar arguments can be applied to high handicappers with all the latest kit. Doesn't really make any difference.


All that said, I do not in any way think that people shouldn't have GPS devices for golf.  It's up to you - free country and all that.....
		
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One question Snelly. Should a higher handicapper who's keen to improve, act on the course as the handicapper he is, or, should he carry himself in the manner a good golfer would and hope, as a result that he will get better.

When I was a 24 h/cap hacker I still had good clubs, balls and ancilliary equipment because I knew that the only blame for a bad round was squarely down to my swing - if I had high handicapper cheap and nasty gear I would always have had something else to blame and even in the early days I had to have a yardage (measured with pacing and strokesaver) as I always harboured the expectation of hitting some shots properly.

I found that when I first got a measuring device, which was before the R & A allowed them, so a while ago, my shots improved rapidly. No they don't help you hit the ball better, and God knows I hit many a duff, but I always stood over a shot confident that I was weilding the correct bat for the job and that helped no end and often stopped me trying to force the shot. It also stopped the frustration of the times when I guessed the club wrong, nailed it and saw it come up 30 yards short when if I got the club right with knowing the precise distance when, on the odd occasion I happened to nail it, I wanted the reward of being close


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## Twire (Apr 18, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Conversely, when my timing was miles out last Thursday, I didn't really know if my 3 iron was going to go 75 or 220 yards. Therefore, knowing the precise distance was utterly irrelevant.
		
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We all have those games Snelly, some more than others  but we still need to choose a club, and by having the correct distance helps us with that decision.


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## shivas irons (Apr 18, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't see it getting off track at all. People are only responding to what you've written and usually to ask for your proof to back up your remarks. Sounds like someone throwing his niblick and feathered ball out the pram. Isn't that the true way to play the game. Not sure how you can actually justify to anyone else your last statement. It might be for you but pretty sure others will argue that
		
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Thing is Homer some members didnt want to debate at all,I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,ok say what you think but the initial abuse was unnecessary.Let me put it this another way then, if you GPS is such an asset to your game surely your handicaps cant be correct as you already have the advantage over somebody who does not have or cant afford GPS but would find it beneficial.Basically as far as i`m concerned if you have the advantage on somebody else shots should be "added" to your handicaps because you are making the game easier for yourself.If you guys with GPS are gaining so much I would love to see your scorecards over a period of time without using GPS,and I bet you you scores will increase,and if they dont well whats the point in having it?. Constructive replies only please.......


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## JamesR (Apr 18, 2012)

Snelly said:



			The difference between the two situations was that I was played well in the first round and dreadfully in the second.  My point being that when hitting the ball beautifully, I have a very good idea of how far it will travel with a given club with a full shot. Consequently, the precision of a GPS is very helpful.  Conversely, when my timing was miles out last Thursday, I didn't really know if my 3 iron was going to go 75 or 220 yards.  Therefore, knowing the precise distance was utterly irrelevant......
		
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My GPS is a very simple affair which basically gives front, back & middle of the green.
When playing well I make use of the front & back parts.
When not playing so well I only make use of the middle part. On the basis that if miss-hit then it may still get on the green (be it a slightly fat or thinned connection).


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## sweatysock41 (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Thing is Homer some members didnt want to debate at all,I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,ok say what you think but the initial abuse was unnecessary.Let me put it this another way then, if you GPS is such an asset to your game surely your handicaps cant be correct as you already have the advantage over somebody who does not have or cant afford GPS but would find it beneficial.Basically as far as i`m concerned if you have the advantage on somebody else shots should be "added" to your handicaps because you are making the game easier for yourself.If you guys with GPS are gaining so much I would love to see your scorecards over a period of time without using GPS,and I bet you you scores will increase,and if they dont well whats the point in having it?.
		
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This takes the debate in a whole different direction - you are now stating that people who can afford certain devices should be punished.  Let's take that to another level are you also saying that in a competition where caddies are allowed and someone elects not to use one the person with the caddy should have strokes added?  You really are spouting some rubbish - GPS are allowed if the local rules in competitions permit therefore no one is breaking any rules by using one if they are allowed so why should they be punished.  Welcome to the 21st century it is human nature to get assistance where you can - if you choose not to then that is your decision - but don't expect others who utilise the legally available item to accept your view that their handicap is wrong and they should have shots added for your lack of insight.


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## USER1999 (Apr 18, 2012)

Since buying my dmd, my handicap has dropped 3 shots.

I cannot directly attribute this to owning a dmd, and would never try to. Other things in my game have changed too. However, I have spent the best part of 15 years playing off twelve, and last year got down to 9. I hope to go lower this year.

Is a gps cheating? No. All this information was available to me before I bought one, through yardage charts, and pacing from 150 markers. 
Thing is, I either didn't bother (course planners are full of naff heiroglyphics which make no sense to me, and pin placement charts, 6 on, 4 left ditto) or I was rubbish at it.

The dmd gives me the information, which every one else can have (in paper form) in a manner that I can understand without a degree in cartography.


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## JamesR (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Thing is Homer some members didnt want to debate at all,I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,ok say what you think but the initial abuse was unnecessary.Let me put it this another way then, if you GPS is such an asset to your game surely your handicaps cant be correct as you already have the advantage over somebody who does not have or cant afford GPS but would find it beneficial.Basically as far as i`m concerned if you have the advantage on somebody else shots should be "added" to your handicaps because you are making the game easier for yourself.If you guys with GPS are gaining so much I would love to see your scorecards over a period of time without using GPS,and I bet you you scores will increase,and if they dont well whats the point in having it?. Constructive replies only please.......
		
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Why should wealth come into handicaps for golfers?

If one person can afford CF clubs and another can't should handicaps alter.
If one person can afford lessons but another can't should handicaps alter.

I can afford a GPS and I'm sure it has helped my handicap come down.
I can afford CF clubs and I'm sure it has helped my handicap come down.
I can afford lessons and I'm sure it has helped my handicap come down.

There are plenty of other ways in which one person can have an advantage over another and handicaps shouldn't be altered because of them:
Height, weight, strength, fitness, suppleness, age, availability to play more often etc etc

Constructive enough?


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## USER1999 (Apr 18, 2012)

The other thing with handicaps is that they are designed to level the field. If my handicap drops because I am playing better, and Smiffys goes up because he is Smiffy, then when we meet, he gets more shots (whether in match play or stroke play). It doesn't really matter what my handicap is, or how I managed to reduce it. I just have to play to it. If I knock 3 shots off it tomorrow with some amazing new gadget, great, but then it will stabilise out, and I am back to square one.


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## chrisd (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Thing is Homer some members didnt want to debate at all,I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,ok say what you think but the initial abuse was unnecessary.Let me put it this another way then, if you GPS is such an asset to your game surely your handicaps cant be correct as you already have the advantage over somebody who does not have or cant afford GPS but would find it beneficial.Basically as far as i`m concerned if you have the advantage on somebody else shots should be "added" to your handicaps because you are making the game easier for yourself.If you guys with GPS are gaining so much I would love to see your scorecards over a period of time without using GPS,and I bet you you scores will increase,and if they dont well whats the point in having it?. Constructive replies only please.......
		
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I will try and be constructive - There are hundreds of devices, equipment, balls and clubs that are at the top end of cost. Anything that is legal to use under the rules is available to each and every golfer but there are many things that are financially out of the reach of some golfers. Every golfer is entitled to buy and use a measuring device (so long as their club rules allow their use) and no golfer should/could/would have his handicap adjusted on the grounds of having more disposable income to spend on getting better at the game. For this reason I believe your argument to be fatally flawed as even the financially poorest of golfers can use a GPS if they care to buy one as, after all, a golfer using the dearest driver doesn't have a handicap adjustment compared to a golfer using his fathers 20 year old persimmon driver just because he cant afford a new one.

There, pretty constructive, but I still think that you are on a total wind up as precious liitle that I read from you makes any sense at all.


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## Snelly (Apr 18, 2012)

chrisd said:



			One question Snelly. Should a higher handicapper who's keen to improve, act on the course as the handicapper he is, or, should he carry himself in the manner a good golfer would and hope, as a result that he will get better.

When I was a 24 h/cap hacker I still had good clubs, balls and ancilliary equipment because I knew that the only blame for a bad round was squarely down to my swing - if I had high handicapper cheap and nasty gear I would always have had something else to blame and even in the early days I had to have a yardage (measured with pacing and strokesaver) as I always harboured the expectation of hitting some shots properly.

I found that when I first got a measuring device, which was before the R & A allowed them, so a while ago, my shots improved rapidly. No they don't help you hit the ball better, and God knows I hit many a duff, but I always stood over a shot confident that I was weilding the correct bat for the job and that helped no end and often stopped me trying to force the shot. It also stopped the frustration of the times when I guessed the club wrong, nailed it and saw it come up 30 yards short when if I got the club right with knowing the precise distance when, on the odd occasion I happened to nail it, I wanted the reward of being close
		
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All golfers should carry themselves well on course, irrelevant of handicap.

I don't think I said you should have cheap and nasty gear if you are a high handicapper though?  If you inferred that from my post then I am sorry as that isn't my view.    What I am saying is that all the latest kit, custom fitted and so on, won't make the blindest bit of difference if you don't have a decent swing.  Same goes for GPS.   You cannot buy better golf scores and the only way to get better is by playing a lot and hitting thousands of shots.  There are no short cuts.  

So what I am saying is good for you that you feel confident as a result of your GPS, but I don't think that it is affecting your scores positively.  You need to be further up the learning curve before the difference a GPS makes is tangible in any other way apart from between the ears.   You say that it helps you - how much has your average score dropped by since you got a GPS? And how attributable is this improvement to said device? I would argue that the improvement has resulted from hitting more balls and getting better as a player.  Nothing to do with knowing precise yardages. 

Just my opinion of course...

And again, I am not knocking anyone for using one, just at odds with the view that it makes a major difference to the gross scores for most users of these things.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Thing is Homer some members didnt want to debate at all,I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,ok say what you think but the initial abuse was unnecessary.Let me put it this another way then, if you GPS is such an asset to your game surely your handicaps cant be correct as you already have the advantage over somebody who does not have or cant afford GPS but would find it beneficial.Basically as far as i`m concerned if you have the advantage on somebody else shots should be "added" to your handicaps because you are making the game easier for yourself.If you guys with GPS are gaining so much I would love to see your scorecards over a period of time without using GPS,and I bet you you scores will increase,and if they dont well whats the point in having it?. Constructive replies only please.......
		
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Hard to be constructive to something so ridiculous. My game is where it is primarily because I have the short game of a 28 handicapper. It is a weakness and it is something I'm stringently working on. Not an area GPS makes a difference to in the slightest. 

You are saying I need t openalised now on my handicap for making the game easier. So where do you draw that line. Two ball putters for better alignment. SGI clubs to get the ball in the air. It is a device open to anyone. If they choose not to use one then that is choice. You simply cannot peanlise those that do. If not why not make everyone use standardised equipment.

Sorry but you seem intent on causing a backlash with inane comments like this and I can't see any merit in your comments. It seems nothing more than a simple wind up


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## User20205 (Apr 18, 2012)

mmm levelling the playing field based on income. sound like some kind of communist golf manifesto







not really sure it would work, are we all going to play with dunlop drivers and top flite lack balls because they are cheap and therefore fair ?

I've got a laser range finder, it hasn't knocked any shots off my handicap, I don't always use it, but if I want to I can & will.


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## Snelly (Apr 18, 2012)

Twire said:



			We all have those games Snelly, some more than others  but we still need to choose a club, and by having the correct distance helps us with that decision.
		
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I agree and this is essentially my point. The higher the handicap, the more often the days when precise distances are less relevant.


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## chrisd (Apr 18, 2012)

Snelly said:



			All golfers should carry themselves well on course, irrelevant of handicap.

I don't think I said you should have cheap and nasty gear if you are a high handicapper though?  If you inferred that from my post then I am sorry as that isn't my view.    What I am saying is that all the latest kit, custom fitted and so on, won't make the blindest bit of difference if you don't have a decent swing.  Same goes for GPS.   You cannot buy better golf scores and the only way to get better is by playing a lot and hitting thousands of shots.  There are no short cuts.  

So what I am saying is good for you that you feel confident as a result of your GPS, but I don't think that it is affecting your scores positively.  You need to be further up the learning curve before the difference a GPS makes is tangible in any other way apart from between the ears.   You say that it helps you - how much has your average score dropped by since you got a GPS? And how attributable is this improvement to said device? I would argue that the improvement has resulted from hitting more balls and getting better as a player.  Nothing to do with knowing precise yardages. 

Just my opinion of course...

And again, I am not knocking anyone for using one, just at odds with the view that it makes a major difference to the gross scores for most users of these things.
		
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No apology necessary Snelly, some times we read things in a different way than meant

I am certain that measuring devices have helped in my improvement but I have also changed equipment, had lessons, had 2 replacement hips and therefore cant quantify what has improved because of what change.

I am sure that knowing correct yardages has been part of the overall improvement but couldn't prove that claim.


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## Val (Apr 18, 2012)

I disagree as to these devices getting your handicap down as mine cannot swing a club for me.


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## dave (Apr 18, 2012)

i have a laser range finder, personally i find it just as quick as working out the yardages on my own, and definatly more accurate.  knowing the yardage doesnt stop the pratt on the end of the stick skulling it over the target.


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## garyinderry (Apr 18, 2012)

chris661 said:



			300 squid wha you buying? There is no way you need to spend that to get a gps or laser.
		
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are new lasers not Â£300?


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## bobmac (Apr 18, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			are new lasers not Â£300?
		
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You can get them for as little as Â£90 new


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## MarkA (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Thing is Homer some members didnt want to debate at all,I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,ok say what you think but the initial abuse was unnecessary.Let me put it this another way then, if you GPS is such an asset to your game surely your handicaps cant be correct as you already have the advantage over somebody who does not have or cant afford GPS but would find it beneficial.Basically as far as i`m concerned if you have the advantage on somebody else shots should be "added" to your handicaps because you are making the game easier for yourself.If you guys with GPS are gaining so much I would love to see your scorecards over a period of time without using GPS,and I bet you you scores will increase,and if they dont well whats the point in having it?. Constructive replies only please.......
		
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What happens if the pro shop runs out of shotsavers in the middle of a competition ? does that mean that those who bought them have an unfair advantage? Similarly what about those who have a Caddy during Club competitions?


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## Region3 (Apr 18, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I am certain that measuring devices have helped in my improvement but I have also changed equipment, had lessons, had 2 replacement hips and therefore cant quantify what has improved because of what change.

I am sure that knowing correct yardages has been part of the overall improvement but couldn't prove that claim.
		
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Ditto, except the hips.

I think the confidence that knowing the right yardage gives you is worth having one by itself.

Yes, some people are more likely to hit the right distance than others, but knowing you have the right club in your hands is one less thing to think about standing over the ball, and that is definitely a good thing as anyone who's been asked if they breath in or out during their swing will attest to.

Certainly for me, probably for lots, before dmd's you might be torn between 2 clubs to use. It doesn't matter which one you pick there will still be a doubt in your mind before you swing.

You stand there thinking it's not quite enough club, try to give it a bit more and thin or slice the ball. If you think you have too much club you try to take a bit off and fat it.

Knowing the right yardage for me just gives me one less thing to worry about before I take my shot.


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## Neddy (Apr 18, 2012)

If I was 95% confident I could hit my 7 iron 140 yards then it would be useful for me to know when i am exactly  140 yards from the pin.

As it is I only do it 2 times out of 10 so therefore knowing i am somewhere between 135-145 yards is more than sufficient. 

If I am really not sure/there are no markers i use a simple and free app on my phone.

Most courses have 150 and 100 markers these days and tbh, I find it hard to believe people aren't capable of working out what distance they are within say, a 10 yard window. If someone thinks they are 120 away and they are actually 140 away, on a course with a 150 marker, then they need a trip to the optician, not a gps device.

That said I am not going to criticise people for spending their money on one. Each to their own.


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## shivas irons (Apr 18, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hard to be constructive to something so ridiculous. My game is where it is primarily because I have the short game of a 28 handicapper. It is a weakness and it is something I'm stringently working on. Not an area GPS makes a difference to in the slightest. 

You are saying I need t openalised now on my handicap for making the game easier. So where do you draw that line. Two ball putters for better alignment. SGI clubs to get the ball in the air. It is a device open to anyone. If they choose not to use one then that is choice. You simply cannot peanlise those that do. If not why not make everyone use standardised equipment.

Sorry but you seem intent on causing a backlash with inane comments like this and I can't see any merit in your comments. It seems nothing more than a simple wind up
		
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No Wind up,If these "devices" you feel really improve your game and you need them you are gaining an advantage over somebody who would benefit from one but does not have one,Are you saying your scoring would be higher without GPS? wheres the wrong in head to head just using your clubs and your own skill with a same handicapper to you(non GPS) in the monthly medal?.In my time in retail we used to love you guys queuing up for you devices cos we knew you would be convinced that your game would improve no end if you bought the next best device/club,but hell if it didnt work so what you`ll be back.Apart from some guys like a club pro I know who wouldnt sell you anything you didnt need the modern golf industry is based on the punter having this "get better quick"attitude,good grief how many drivers do these manufactures produce in a short space in time with promises to hit it like a pro!.I caddied for a guy pre groove rule change on the seniors with a twenty year old set of rusty 1-sw and driver who was knocking it around in sub par,now I know your going to say if you have not got this guys ability these aids help but thats what the handicap systems for so you can play guys like this fairly.Theres no sustitute in this game for a fitted set of clubs your comfortable with,initial lessons and practise.If you got a feel for distance and can read yardage(which is part of the game) you dont not need GPS,be interesting to see the results if some of you guys "dared" not using it for a while.


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## USER1999 (Apr 18, 2012)

I quite often don't use my dmd. I also quite often go out with 5 clubs in a pencil bag. I still shoot a similar score.

Would I enter a medal with 5 clubs in my bag? No.

Yes, I could shoot my average round, but I would struggle to beat my best round, and that is what I would be looking for.


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## joma1108 (Apr 18, 2012)

I bought a GPS primarily as i play a lot of courses i dont know when away on business and stuck on an overnight.
The benefits are that this speeds up my play as it sits at the side of my bag and as im taking my bag off my back i can read the yardages and know what club im using.

At my home course it has helped me when im off line or when there is a wind lets me make an informed decision.

Golf is a subjective point and im wondering if the original poster uses specific clubs, balls, gloves etc that enhances his enjoyment of the game or heaven forbid helps him.

Also when on the course im sure that he would use what available reference points are there for him, whether that be a yardage book or distance markers on the fairway, but then again maybe when i get that good i wont need any assistance.

Im slightly dissapointed i have succumbed to answering in this thread but hey ho i have now.


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			In the original game you might only have 2 or 3 clubs so you are not trying to match a particular club to a particular distance.
		
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A popular misconception! Up until 1938/39, there was no limit on the number of clubs that could be carried. There are old pictures/photos of caddies carrying bags that had up to 30 clubs in them.


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Thing is Homer some members didnt want to debate at all
		
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I'd put you down as one of those!


shivas irons said:



			I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,ok say what you think but the initial abuse was unnecessary.
		
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In your opinion. I happen to think that the comments were quite appropriate - but that's my opinion. Unless the moderator was acting in Moderator mode, I attach no difference to the 'value' of a moderator's posts. The one about feeding trolls made me smile!


shivas irons said:



			Let me put it this another way then, if you GPS is such an asset to your game surely your handicaps cant be correct as you already have the advantage over somebody who does not have or cant afford GPS but would find it beneficial.Basically as far as i`m concerned if you have the advantage on somebody else shots should be "added" to your handicaps because you are making the game easier for yourself.
		
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Handicap system will adjust automatically to improvements and is impartial about ho those improvements come about. Your last sentence above implies a contradiction to your view that GPS is a gimmick. And "added" should be "taken off"! 


shivas irons said:



			If you guys with GPS are gaining so much I would love to see your scorecards over a period of time without using GPS,and *I bet you you scores will increase*,and if they dont well whats the point in having it?.
		
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Now that really does contradict your assertion that they are merely gimmicks!


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## chris661 (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I was just slagged off and by one "moderator" in particular,
		
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Who by, me?


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2012)

chris661 said:








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Probably.

Seemed/seems pretty appropriate imo!


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## chrisd (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			No Wind up,If these "devices" you feel really improve your game and you need them you are gaining an advantage over somebody who would benefit from one but does not have one,Are you saying your scoring would be higher without GPS? wheres the wrong in head to head just using your clubs and your own skill with a same handicapper to you(non GPS) in the monthly medal?.In my time in retail we used to love you guys queuing up for you devices cos we knew you would be convinced that your game would improve no end if you bought the next best device/club,but hell if it didnt work so what you`ll be back.Apart from some guys like a club pro I know who wouldnt sell you anything you didnt need the modern golf industry is based on the punter having this "get better quick"attitude,good grief how many drivers do these manufactures produce in a short space in time with promises to hit it like a pro!.I caddied for a guy pre groove rule change on the seniors with a twenty year old set of rusty 1-sw and driver who was knocking it around in sub par,now I know your going to say if you have not got this guys ability these aids help but thats what the handicap systems for so you can play guys like this fairly.Theres no sustitute in this game for a fitted set of clubs your comfortable with,initial lessons and practise.If you got a feel for distance and can read yardage(which is part of the game) you dont not need GPS,be interesting to see the results if some of you guys "dared" not using it for a while.
		
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I have read quite a lot of twaddle on this site at times but you and Papyt have cornered the market in one week in digging a hole for youselves and then compounding the problem by digging further to get out! No one has taken your side and yet you still persist in the crazy notion that somehow, whilst you argue that no one plays better because the've got a GPS you totally contradict that by saying that because of the benefit that they give, users of GPS devices should have their handicaps reduced because of their advantage????


............... and I still maintain that you are on a wind up as you only have to read your postings to see how ridiculous they are!


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## shivas irons (Apr 18, 2012)

Jeeeez theres some stupid people on here  ,I`m not contradicting myself at all and will stand firm that GPS is a waste on time,what i`m saying is if you think its so beneficial then you must be gaining an advantage.Do try to keep up and stop just coming out with "this is a wind up" If you dont understand whats going on give up!! and as for "nobody on my side" well good i`m not one of the GM forum sheep!!


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## rosecott (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			as for "nobody on my side" well good i`m not one of the GM forum sheep!!
		
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Baaah, humbug.


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## Bratty (Apr 18, 2012)

ShivasIrons, you say no-one's interested in having a debate. My reason for not debating is that you keep posting conflicting points of view, and then bring comments like "not at the local muni" (which I found hugely offensive) and the whole piece around handicaps being adjusted for DMDs. Then to cap it all, you suggest that I should be able to judge distance based on eyesight alone, and that you can't believe my game can have improved as a result of having a DMD.

So, to add my opinion, and it is just an opinion, not fact, here you are:

18 months ago I bought a GPS device for Â£150, with no subscription fee. 1 year ago also joined an indoor golf centre that allowed me to check my swing with a simulator/video camera, giving me instant feedback. I also had a 30 minute lesson every other month. I reckon I used the centre most days for 4 months, but without changing my swing. Then used it a bit less, maybe one or two days per week, plus the lessons - which didn't really change the swing, but tried to help what I had.

Last April, I started the season off 16. It went up to 16.4, then in the space of 5 months tumbled to 12.8. Every round I played, I used the DMD. Every round I played, I did not have a consistent swing. Every round I played I knew the yardage. Every round I played, if the swing was good, the outcome was almost never too short or too long.

My summation was that while the indoor range helped tremendously, the GPS device was a large influence in the reduction of my handicap. Partly due to confidence in knowing the yardage (so psychological), and partly due to knowing how far I can hit irons having pulled of the shots in previous rounds using the GPS. It meant I wasn't trying to hit little chip or pitch shots because I'd over/under clubbed, and as I don't ever practice short shots, it means they're often sh*t shots. So it was saving me from those bad shots. Now yes, if I practiced, I coud get better at them, and then it wouldn't matter, but I'd rather be on the green and putting for two, than chipping for three and hoping it gets close. So, while I don't practice the short game, I like to know the yardage.

I played the Old Course at St Andrews recently, and shot my best ever score of 82, without a GPS. I did however, have a strokesaver, lots of sprinkler heads with measurements, and a pin sheet with green depths. Basically, a paper and physical representation of what I get on my GPS. The difference was I had to do far more counting and pacing, and it took a bit longer than just glancing at a screen.

Finally, as this has turned into a bit of a rant, I am much better at judging distances now that I was before. The reason for this is that I have closely observed the distance I'm given by the GPS, and then look up and closely observe the distance "manually".

Feel free to disagree with me, as you have with everyone else, but you will not be able to convince me that my GPS hasn't helped bring my score down.


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## MashieNiblick (Apr 18, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			A popular misconception! Up until 1938/39, there was no limit on the number of clubs that could be carried. There are old pictures/photos of caddies carrying bags that had up to 30 clubs in them.
		
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I'm thinking way way back to the origins of the game and up to about the  18th/mid 19th century. E.g caddy in painting below has 3 clubs, player has 1. Of these one will be a putter and the other a driving club so 2 clubs to choose from from the fairway. I have read that 6 clubs was about normal in the early days as a player might also have a couple of iron clubs for playing out of ruts and bunkers.







I accept that as the game developed through that period players might have an array of "play clubs" and these would be different lofts and lengths but in essence, as I understand it, it wasn't a game based on picking a particular club for a particular distance, although you might pick a more lofted club if you had a bad lie or had to go over a hazard. Sometimes extra clubs were carried in case a club broke  which I believe was not uncommon.

Later on of course and certainly by the early 1900s sets of clubs designed to hit the ball different distances became the norm, and it became more a matter of choosing a particular  club for a particular distance, and yes players sometimes had 20 odd clubs until the R&A responded and introduced the 14 club limit. Distance was still largely judged by eye though.


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## HawkeyeMS (Apr 18, 2012)

I was going to reply earlier, then I saw your :rofl: at people using GPS on par 3s and I realised you had no idea what you were talking about.


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## Bratty (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Jeeeez theres some stupid people on here  ,I`m not contradicting myself at all and will stand firm that GPS is a waste on time,what i`m saying is if you think its so beneficial then you must be gaining an advantage.Do try to keep up and stop just coming out with "this is a wind up" If you dont understand whats going on give up!! and as for "nobody on my side" well good i`m not one of the GM forum sheep!!
		
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A previous post had you "bleating" that people were being rude to "ewe", and now you throw insults out? Pot- kettle? I appreciate that you didn't want to "fleece" your customers when you worked in retail, but now your comments are simply "woolly"... see what I did there?


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2012)

For the love of god, will people stop answering him. He isn't interested in a debate and is either a wind up merchant or incredibly ignorant. He can't carry on his pathetic ramblings if no one is here to read them.


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## Bratty (Apr 18, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			Later on of course and certainly by the early 1900s sets of clubs designed to hit the ball different distances became the norm, and it became more a matter of choosing a particular  club for a particular distance, and yes players sometimes had 20 odd clubs until the R&A responded and introduced the 14 club limit. Distance was still largely judged by eye though.
		
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Very interesting post, Mashie. Thanks for adding some clarification.

Is it really that it was done by eye? By caddies? I ask only because to my mind the caddy would have paced out the course or had so much experience on it, that they KNEW the yardage, not that they were somehow able to solely look at a distance and say, "that's x"? Also, if they'd paced yards out for years, they would get better at judging distances, which I feel I have by using my GPS (rather than pacing stuff out).


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## Bratty (Apr 18, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			For the love of god, will people stop answering him. He isn't interested in a debate and is either a wind up merchant or incredibly ignorant. He can't carry on his pathetic ramblings if no one is here to read them.
		
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Yeah, but seeing him contradict himself over and over and then resort to insults when no-one agrees with him is rather amusing. I'm not getting wound up at all, Bluewolf... quite calm about the whole thing to be honest.


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2012)

Bratty said:



			Yeah, but seeing him contradict himself over and over and then resort to insults when no-one agrees with him is rather amusing. I'm not getting wound up at all, Bluewolf... quite calm about the whole thing to be honest. 

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He's winding me up though, and as everyone knows, I'm calmer than a duck pond on a still day. It must be this thread coupled with the mobile phone thread. Utterly utterly pointless.


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## Bratty (Apr 18, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			He's winding me up though, and as everyone knows, I'm calmer than a duck pond on a still day. It must be this thread coupled with the mobile phone thread. Utterly utterly pointless.
		
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Like a broken pencil, mate...


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2012)

Bratty said:



			Like a broken pencil, mate...
		
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Blackadder fan perchance?


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## Bratty (Apr 18, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Blackadder fan perchance?
		
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Indeed! I'd be tempted to suggest the OP has a tendency to "twist and turn like a twisty-turny thing" too!


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## AllyLodge (Apr 18, 2012)

I definitely would not want to be the person behind the keyboard of shiva right now


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## shivas irons (Apr 18, 2012)

Reading these posts is sending to to sleep,see what I did there Bratty :thup: .I tried to close my thread but was criticised and told I should keep debating!!


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## chrisd (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Jeeeez theres some stupid people on here  ,I`m not contradicting myself at all and will stand firm that GPS is a waste on time,what i`m saying is if you think its so beneficial then you must be gaining an advantage.Do try to keep up and stop just coming out with "this is a wind up" If you dont understand whats going on give up!! and as for "nobody on my side" well good i`m not one of the GM forum sheep!!
		
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Thats just the problem, I do understand whats going on - you're either trying to wind everyone up or a complete doughnut for brains, because, if you don't get that the reason "nobody's on your side" is because you are completely wrong and not because we are all sheep


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## shivas irons (Apr 18, 2012)

AllyLodge said:



			I definitely would not want to be the person behind the keyboard of shiva right now 

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Now that comment could be construed as a threat,not nice and not what i`m here for.......


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## Captainron (Apr 18, 2012)

Bored now. Time to put this to bed guys.


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2012)

I'd still like to know what advantage a GPS gives you over a Strokesaver...?

Both give yardages - one requires an amount of pacing, the other an amount of glancing at a screen.....

One works in the rain, the other gets wet and falls apart......

Shivas - you choose not to use a perfectly legal device - hey, that's your option.
Just because someone else does choose to use one, why do you think they have an advantage?
You choose to use a Titanium driver - they might choose a wooden one. Doesn't that give you an advantage?

You might choose to wear waterproof shoes with metal spikes, others may choose non-waterproof shoes with worn cleats - who has the advantage on a wet day?

You're entitled to your opinion.
Overwhelming opinion on here thinks you're wrong.
Doesn't make us sheep - maybe it makes you the goat......


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## Val (Apr 18, 2012)

I'd like to know where i can get a gos that will get me a lower handicap, I said it before the gps doesn't swing the club


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## chris661 (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			I tried to close my thread but was criticised and told I should keep debating!!
		
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Ask and ye shall receive.


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## kid2 (Apr 18, 2012)

Ok i bought the latest issue of Golf International mainly because they do great interviews and instruction.....

One other reason i picked it up was that there is a massive interview in it will Billy Foster......
So..................................As im flicking through just waiting for the kettle to boil for a brew here is just a snippet from the interview.....

Interviewer Carolyn Nicoll...............

Question: Whats the best golf gadget on the market today?

Billy's Answer : As a caddie, it's got to be the laser. I've always done my own yardages, and it wasn't all that long ago i was still using a yardage wheel, the type that you see the guys measuring the motorways with.
And i had a bit of string that I'd pull out of the box. I remember one hole in Sun City in South Africa and i had this yardage string going through snake-infested jungle and the over the water to a short par three. It took me over an hour to get a precise number to the centre of the green.
Now I'd just walk on the tee, zap the flag and it would tell me - 130 yards precisely.
Before the laser it could take me six hours and more to map a course....Now i can have it done in three.................


So take what you want from that Shivas.....

But there you have in black and white what the "Best caddie in the world" thinks of DMD's.....


Now im off to make me Brew


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2012)

Bratty said:



			Very interesting post, Mashie. Thanks for adding some clarification.

Is it really that it was done by eye? By caddies? I ask only because to my mind the caddy would have paced out the course or had so much experience on it, that they KNEW the yardage, not that they were somehow able to solely look at a distance and say, "that's x"? Also, if they'd paced yards out for years, they would get better at judging distances, which I feel I have by using my GPS (rather than pacing stuff out).
		
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In those very early days, the caddie did nothing more than carry the golfer's clubs. The player, normally quite 'high' in society, the legal profession/judiciary or the Military, would hardly deign to take advice from a mere lad! There may have been a 'fore-caddie' as well (where the term 'Fore!!!' comes from). These days, they have far more things to do - eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=narf4NzlFKo&feature=player_embedded#!

I believe that painting, I think of Dr John Rattray, the original of which I've seen at Muirfield, contains quite a bit of 'artistic license'!

And it was the USGA that first limited club numbers to 14 in 1938. R&A followed a year later.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 18, 2012)

shivas irons said:



			Reading these posts is sending to to sleep,see what I did there Bratty :thup: .I tried to close my thread but was criticised and told I should keep debating!!
		
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Debating is find. Being dogmatic and entrenched and changing your story with each post just makes you look a bit daft. You are entitled to your opinion although the consensus would indicate you are in a minority but thats fine. Its when you start hurling stuff about munis and coming up with ridiculous notions about these DMD's being such an advantage that handicaps need to be adjusted accordingly that you make a rod for your own back. What I find the most interesting are the number of different threads on here now where you say you wouldn't play with someone because..... must be hard work getting a three ball in a comp that meet your stringent playing criteria. What was that Joan Armatrading line... me, myself I


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## MashieNiblick (Apr 18, 2012)

Bratty said:



			Very interesting post, Mashie. Thanks for adding some clarification.

Is it really that it was done by eye? By caddies? I ask only because to my mind the caddy would have paced out the course or had so much experience on it, that they KNEW the yardage, not that they were somehow able to solely look at a distance and say, "that's x"? Also, if they'd paced yards out for years, they would get better at judging distances, which I feel I have by using my GPS (rather than pacing stuff out).
		
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People like Allan Robertson and Old Tom Morris who were caddies and greenkeepers as well as professional golfers (and club makers) knew the Old Course like the backs of their hands  but like now I think the key would have been knowing what line to hit on, where the bunkers are, where the swales are, how the ball would run etc, rather than exact distances.

I don't want to go beyond what my limited knowledge would justify as it is only based on having read a few books about the history of the game, but the point is I don't think it was really a question of judging the _distance _in terms of yards but of judging how far to hit the ball, of seeing and executing the correct shot, to get to the green. Even today lots of people will tell you that on a links you can forget yardages, especially if the wind is blowing.

Foxholer, thanks for additonal info. I read that even John Ball only  used 6 clubs and I think during the 19th century the number of clubs  people would have used was fairly variable. As you say  there are pictures of caddies with armfuls of clubs on the other hand some show caddies holding just a few.

Golf and history are my 2 passions and this has whetted my appetite to do a bit more reading about how the game was played in the early days.


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## RGDave (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm not going to waste my time reading much of this.

I'd struggle to tell the difference between 140 and 150 yards....I like to know the distance, always have done. It's just quicker with GPS. I don't carry it on my home course b.t.w.

It would be a shame to see my GIRs go down even further, it's enough of a miracle just to hit the ball straight the correct distance.

As for "If you use a driver deduct that off the distance of the hole and use the relevent club to reach the green" that's just silly. My drive could go 220 or 240 or whatever.....daft.....daft......


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## Slab (Apr 19, 2012)

I've enjoyed reading the debate & am glad the Op started it 

What struck me (& I know this is off topic) is how passionately some will defend their right to use GPS (despite alternatives being available) 
I do wonder if all those posters have defended the right to use belly putters & chippers with the same fervour, as it seems opinion in those threads are very much weighted against the use of these two products to the point of ridicule!

What's the difference?


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## Foxholer (Apr 19, 2012)

Don't have a problem one way or another about banning Long and Belly putters. The stroke is different to any other club (bracing) and that seems to provide an advantage. They do also seem to have disadvantages too - seems long putts are rather more difficult than with traditional putters. They have 'kept some players in the game' when they've acquired the yips, an affliction I wouldn't wish on anyone.

No problem with Chippers. Legitimate club imo. Sand and Lob wedges are recent 'inventions', so same would go for them?

If you are going to question golf club progress like that, then questioning the use of steel or graphite shafts is just as valid. 

And GPS/Laser technology is here to stay. I actually think the authorities have got it wrong about the presence of a compass (or even thermometer) on an Ipod/Smartphone - though wind-speed meter might just push it over imo.


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## chrisd (Apr 19, 2012)

Slab said:



			I've enjoyed reading the debate & am glad the Op started it 

What struck me (& I know this is off topic) is how passionately some will defend their right to use GPS (despite alternatives being available) 
I do wonder if all those posters have defended the right to use belly putters & chippers with the same fervour, as it seems opinion in those threads are very much weighted against the use of these two products to the point of ridicule!

What's the difference?
		
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I come from the stance that, if it's allowed by the rules of golf then its ok to use/do it - I use a belly putter and will continue to do so until the rules forbid me to. I personally don't think that the rules will change and I do get brassed off by the continual comment about "spirit of the rules" in these matters. 

The rules are the rules - if you dont want to use a GPS or a belly putter it's fine by me , but please everyone, don't dress your decision up as in some way "holding the moral high ground"


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## MashieNiblick (Apr 19, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I come from the stance that, if it's allowed by the rules of golf then its ok to use/do it - I use a belly putter and will continue to do so until the rules forbid me to. I personally don't think that the rules will change and I do get brassed off by the continual comment about "spirit of the rules" in these matters. 

The rules are the rules - if you dont want to use a GPS or a belly putter it's fine by me , but please everyone, don't dress your decision up as in some way "holding the moral high ground"
		
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Chris I absolutely agree with you that if the R&A say it's Ok then it's Ok, they are the final arbiters, but I also feel that it is interesting and fun to debate whether we think the R&A are right and as you say the Rules can be changed. 

I hope that I don't come over as claiming any moral high ground on threads like this. If so apologies, but I like to be honest about why I think what I think. My interpretation may be wrong though and I hope that I acknowledge that other points of view are valid and respect them even if I diasgree.

What I don't like though is when any of these debates become personal and degenerate into slanging matches. I always feel it is a shame when that happens. There's such a wealth and diversity of knowledge and experience on here and we come together on this brilliant forum share that as golfers. And at the end of the day it is only a game, albeit the best game ever invented.


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## chrisd (Apr 19, 2012)

MashieNiblick said:



			Chris I absolutely agree with you that if the R&A say it's Ok then it's Ok, they are the final arbiters, but I also feel that it is interesting and fun to debate whether we think the R&A are right and as you say the Rules can be changed. 

I hope that I don't come over as claiming any moral high ground on threads like this. If so apologies, but I like to be honest about why I think what I think. My interpretation may be wrong though and I hope that I acknowledge that other points of view are valid and respect them even if I diasgree.

What I don't like though is when any of these debates become personal and degenerate into slanging matches. I always feel it is a shame when that happens. There's such a wealth and diversity of knowledge and experience on here and we come together on this brilliant forum share that as golfers. And at the end of the day it is only a game, albeit the best game ever invented.
		
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To be fair Mashie I always look forward to reading your postings and usually agree with the content too. For me, it's just the Shivas and Papyt's of the world who post a contentious subject (or a normal item contentiously written) and carry right through to the bitter end telling us all we are wrong when we disagree with them, contradict themselves and then start getting obnoxious with poster who don't share their views


You, Mashie are absolutely fine as far as I am concerned, I do read most of your posts and always find them interesting


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## Val (Apr 19, 2012)

chrisd said:



			The rules are the rules - if you dont want to use a GPS or a belly putter it's fine by me , but please everyone, don't dress your decision up as in some way "holding the moral high ground
		
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:clap:  :thup:


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## Dave3498 (Apr 19, 2012)

I came back and started playing again in 2112.  I noticed that I could comfortably hit a 400 yard drive with the new Javelin balls that change into a spear shape after you've hit them and never slice or hook.  GPS went out years ago after they started using the side fairway buffers which are marked at every 1 foot to the hole.  The buffers also stop you rolling into the rough.  Our course standard scratch is 22, but the course record is 17.  I think this is thanks to the new rule allowing the use of feeder gutters on the greens.  We have 12 radial ones on our greens and they all feed nicely down to the hole.  The course is still 7200 yards but we can now get round comfortably in 1 - 1.1/4 hours.  We all laugh when we see pictures of the antiquated kit that golfers had to use years ago, especially GPS.


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## JamesR (Apr 19, 2012)

Dave,
How much roll do you get out of a "spear shape" golf ball?

I only ask as I'm intrigued by the need for buffers on the side of the fairways.


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## chrisd (Apr 19, 2012)

Dave3498 said:



			I came back and started playing again in 2112.  I noticed that I could comfortably hit a 400 yard drive with the new Javelin balls that change into a spear shape after you've hit them and never slice or hook.  GPS went out years ago after they started using the side fairway buffers which are marked at every 1 foot to the hole.  The buffers also stop you rolling into the rough.  Our course standard scratch is 22, but the course record is 17.  I think this is thanks to the new rule allowing the use of feeder gutters on the greens.  We have 12 radial ones on our greens and they all feed nicely down to the hole.  The course is still 7200 yards but we can now get round comfortably in 1 - 1.1/4 hours.  We all laugh when we see pictures of the antiquated kit that golfers had to use years ago, especially GPS.
		
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Is there any need for a long handled putter on this course?

Love the posting by the way!


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## HickoryShaft (Apr 19, 2012)

Dave3498 said:



			I came back and started playing again in 2112. I noticed that I could comfortably hit a 400 yard drive with the new Javelin balls that change into a spear shape after you've hit them and never slice or hook. GPS went out years ago after they started using the side fairway buffers which are marked at every 1 foot to the hole. The buffers also stop you rolling into the rough. Our course standard scratch is 22, but the course record is 17. I think this is thanks to the new rule allowing the use of feeder gutters on the greens. We have 12 radial ones on our greens and they all feed nicely down to the hole. The course is still 7200 yards but we can now get round comfortably in 1 - 1.1/4 hours. We all laugh when we see pictures of the antiquated kit that golfers had to use years ago, especially GPS.
		
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:rofl:
Course record of 17 wow - did it bounce in one hole and then straight into the next one with one hit or is that the new R&A rule that you can choose one hole to drop off your score to make it fairer?

By the way can you tell me who wins the Grand national / Premier league etc for the next 50 years so I can take over Ladbrookes (ahh Back to the Future II now that was a classic movie:lol Also is there any record of me winning a Major in there when I get my new kit?

Great post - really enjoyed it.


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## Dave3498 (Apr 19, 2012)

HickoryShaft said:



			:rofl:
Course record of 17 wow - did it bounce in one hole and then straight into the next one with one hit or is that the new R&A rule that you can choose one hole to drop off your score to make it fairer?

By the way can you tell me who wins the Grand national / Premier league etc for the next 50 years so I can take over Ladbrookes (ahh Back to the Future II now that was a classic movie:lol Also is there any record of me winning a Major in there when I get my new kit?

Great post - really enjoyed it.
		
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It was a lady and she got a courtesy shot on th 2nd.  There's no horse racing any more - too cruel to the jockeys.  Chelsea has won the Premier for the last 75 years, but there are only 2 teams in it - Chelsea & Tottenham.  All the others went into liquidation in 2019.  Yes you did win the Masters in 2020, with a course record.  Well played HS.


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