# How to use the wrists in the golfswing.



## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2012)

Foxholer made a comment in another thread relating to my comment suggesting that the wrists should only hinge in an up and down manner during the swing and that rolling of the wrists caused problems for most golfers.

Maybe Mr Foxholer would like to continue the thread and elaborate on how he believes the wrists should work.


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## bobmac (Jul 3, 2012)

With your left hand, take hold of your right forearm a few inches above the hand and then try rolling your wrists without moving your arm......you cant do it.
But, I think when someone says 'roll your wrists' people know what they mean


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## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2012)

bobmac said:



			With your left hand, take hold of your right forearm a few inches above the hand and then try rolling your wrists without moving your arm......you cant do it.
But, I think when someone says 'roll your wrists' people know what they mean
		
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I am talking about turning them over, I understand the forearms will also need to turn over to achieve this.    My point is that turning the wrists over  creates  poor ball striking with most people as they need exceptional good timing to bring them back square.


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## RGDave (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm interested in this; because over the years I have sometimes felt (right or wrong) that I'm rolling my wrists, certainly in "timing" through the ball.

I've not thought about it for a long time though, because ever since stopping manipulating the club on the take away (I used to deliberately open the face to 9 o'clock (toe directly up)) which then needed to then be closed at some point on the way down. 

Always fascinated by this stuff.


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## JustOne (Jul 4, 2012)

There's no rolling of the wrist..... in a decent swing..... until after the ball is struck and even then it's generally a recocking of the wrist (Luke Donald) or a rolling that avoids snapping the arms off (Bubba) 

Luke recocks his wrists very quickly after impact, it's a technique (supposedly) to be able to hit the ball higher.... flippin' hard to do.

Bubba fiercy rolls his wrists post impact as the club is swinging so far OUT from him... he's literally just trying to hold onto the club and it appears to roll dramatically as he 'pulls' it round his body.

Neither of them is trying to manipulate the face INTO/THROUGH impact.

People who hit a draw appear to roll the face post impact (for the same reason Bubba appears to).. the club is going one way whilst the left shouder/arm is trying to go the other. One way round this is to swing more like Mahan who's hands stay lower and swing more LEFT, low hands are easier to control when hitting a draw. Someone like Ernie appears to roll the wrists... he's also a drawer of the ball, with hands higher than Mahan's at impact I believe.

If you're trying to literally hook the ball then you really have to get the path to the right of the face and then it seems even MORE like you're rolling your wrists.. they practically look like they cross over but this is all POST impact and as a RESULT of the swing... not a manipulation.

I think Foxy actually half said that in the other thread though didn't he?............ before contradicting himself....




			Personally, I'd prefer it to be limited to 'after impact' (normally) or 'except where the shot demands it' (as in sling-hook), but to say it's a no-no seems ridiculous to me - specially where demonstrated by those examples.
		
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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2012)

From Previous Thread



SocketRocket said:



			I do believe that with any golf shot rotation of the wrists is a complete no go.
		
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As per my assertion - and the 'test' is the one Bob cites above - The wrist can only (for all practicality) work in 2 planes. They cannot rotate! 

So SR's post above, while anatomically correct, has no meaning - without the clarification as I requested (the definition of wrist rotation).

As for the concept of rolling one wrist over the other during a golf shot, It depends on your definition of 'shot'. If the shot finishes at impact, then maybe, but again a pointless statement. If it is 'whole swing', then clearly the McIlroy, Donald and Watson are swinging it wrongly.

Also, if at any point in the swing the clubface changes from being 'square' to otherwise, then there must have been some, albeit small, amount of 'rollover'. I'd guess that keeping that to only that desired (zero in SR's case) is what we can, just about, agree on.

Personally, I'm happy with 'reasonable' and 'not excessive' in most parts of a swing. It's the repeatability/predictability that is the most important in my view.


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## chrisd (Jul 4, 2012)

My long time playing partner's first move away from the ball is to turn his hands to the extent that his right hand  would be facing the sky. This then swings the club (for him) into a very laid off position at the top. It does work for him with woods and full iron shots but, he absolutely cant chip a ball as he never gets back to his set up position with any type of pitch or chip.

I have my hands forward at address with my irons and keep the bow that is created in my right wrist right throught the back swing to the strike, there is no deliberate move in the wrist, roll or anything, that doesn't just happen naturally during the backswing and the hands at strike are in the same position that they were at set up. For me, I now hit down on the ball compressing it, the ball flight is lower and stronger and with more spin and straighter with slight draw.

I do not subscribe to any theory of rolling the wrists or arms in the swing - just do what comes naturally.


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## sawtooth (Jul 4, 2012)

Wrist roll is a fault especially in the first part of the backswing. Its common to accidentally roll the wrist when taking the club away which will result in a open/closed club face. I guess those that do it and still play well probably compensate for this in the downswing.

Wrist cock/uncock is something that IMO should just happen subconsciously as a result of gripping the club correctly. A good grip is designed to allow the wrists to cock/uncock well and to make it more difficult to roll them.


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## JustOne (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			As for the concept of rolling one wrist over the other during a golf shot, It depends on your definition of 'shot'. If the shot finishes at impact, then maybe, but again a pointless statement. If it is 'whole swing', then clearly the McIlroy, Donald and Watson are swinging it wrongly.

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Depends what point of reference you take in the swing and where the rest of the body is positioned.

For example: If you take an 'old school' follow through where the toe of the club points at the sky on the throughswing when the shaft is parallel to the ground..... have the wrists had to roll to get to that position..... if the hips have opened and the shoulders are facing the target what roll has occured?

Yes the club would appear to have rolled when viewed from 'face on' but in reality it hasn't, it's just that you're now viewing the clubhead from a 'side-on' view... and it's raised from the ground.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Depends what point of reference you take in the swing and where the rest of the body is positioned.

For example: If you take an 'old school' follow through where the toe of the club points at the sky on the throughswing when the shaft is parallel to the ground..... have the wrists had to roll to get to that position..... if the hips have opened and the shoulders are facing the target what roll has occured?

Yes the club would appear to have rolled when viewed from 'face on' but in reality it hasn't, it's just that you're now viewing the clubhead from a 'side-on' view... and it's raised from the ground.
		
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JO. Why quote my using Donald, McIlroy and Bubba as examples, then talk about 'old school' swings? 

It seems to me that the swings that identify players as 'Cricketers' are the ones that seem to have the least rolling of one wrist over the other (after impact). Cricket bat grip is the epitomy of a strong left hand!



sawtooth said:



			Wrist roll is a fault especially in the first part of the backswing. Its common to accidentally roll the wrist when taking the club away which will result in a open/closed club face. I guess those that do it and still play well probably compensate for this in the downswing.
		
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Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! 

Here's the sort of swing you could get to if you are obsessed with not rolling one wrist over the other - from about 1.45.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVFuPKilfLw


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2012)

Just One is correct.   A view from the front may appear that the clubface has rotated but in face in a good swing it has just rotated around the core and is still square to the swingpath.

Many poor swings are due to the clubface being rolled open in the backswing then returning to the ball with the face still open, it's why most golfers slice the ball.  Keeping the wrists square eliminates the need for difficult manipulations.

If the wrists hinge and unhinge in an up and down manner only then you will be able to create power with repeated accuracy.

Golfers do rotate their  wrists  in the swing and  destroy all chance of good ball striking unless they have very exceptional timing.  

To suggest that the wrists cannot roll over or rotate is purely semantics, its like saying  the spine does not lift up, it's the head. lets not go down that route please 

Here is a good video that shows a drill to keep the wrists square to the swingplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaZC6s4pev0&feature=relmfu


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## andycap (Jul 4, 2012)

Use of the wrists in the swing is something that i have been working on recently, there are some good videos on youtube . One that has helped me describes getting the club at right angles to your left arm when your arm is parallel to the ground on the back swing ,(club pointing skywards) and getting a similar right angle when your arm is parallel to the ground on the follow through . If you just go through that motion without  even holding a club you will see that quite a lot of wrist movement is required to achieve that . I have found it very good , although as with all aspects of the swing there are timing issues , at first i didnt swing any further than the 90 degrees  but if you swing further just get in to that right angle position when the arm is parallel.
   I find it works best with short irons and wedges , giving me a nice lofted flight that stops quickly  . I'd like to know what the experts view on it is though .


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2012)

andycap said:



			Use of the wrists in the swing is something that i have been working on recently, there are some good videos on youtube . One that has helped me describes getting the club at right angles to your left arm when your arm is parallel to the ground on the back swing ,(club pointing skywards) and getting a similar right angle when your arm is parallel to the ground on the follow through . If you just go through that motion without  even holding a club you will see that quite a lot of wrist movement is required to achieve that . I have found it very good , although as with all aspects of the swing there are timing issues , at first i didnt swing any further than the 90 degrees  but if you swing further just get in to that right angle position when the arm is parallel.
   I find it works best with short irons and wedges , giving me a nice lofted flight that stops quickly  . I'd like to know what the experts view on it is though .
		
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Yes, that's a good way to play.   The only wrists movement required is to hinge the wrist up and down though.  The impact zone between the halfway back position to the halfway through is the crutial part of the swing to get right.   If you can get the club correctly into the half way down position then 'not a lot' can go wrong from there.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! 



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Daft!!   We are addressing handicap golfers here, not giving advice to the best players in the world that have exeptional timing and coordination.   Rolling the wrists for the average player is as I stated, a No Go.    

Maybe you could try a little harder to debate a subject without having to use statements like *'is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! *'  If you believe the statement to be wrong then be polite enough to explain why without the personal digs.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Golfers do rotate their  wrists  in the swing
		
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We've already established that that (rotating wrists) is physically (virtually) impossible. Not at all like spine/head lifting - both of which are possible. It's the forearms that do the 'rolling' -  pronation/supination - that changes the relative position of the wrists - from almost square to one above the other.

Surely you agree that Donald's, McIlroy's and Bubba's wrists (forearms!) 'roll' after the ball has been hit.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips-i0.jpg&imgrefurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips&h=336&w=629&sz=21&tbnid=ZNp0xNN_wuwAjM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__6TGVXVgf8BRPqDfWQbzqEqr69A4=&docid=5oWcpHTR-Lr3SM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpryT5P9JejZ0QXWn5WwCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ9QEwAw&dur=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVW8DBHWXv8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kvH1SDn3I


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			We've already established that that (rotating wrists) is physically (virtually) impossible. Not at all like spine/head lifting - both of which are possible. It's the forearms that do the 'rolling' -  pronation/supination - that changes the relative position of the wrists - from almost square to one above the other.

Surely you agree that Donald's, McIlroy's and Bubba's wrists (forearms!) 'roll' after the ball has been hit.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips-i0.jpg&imgrefurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips&h=336&w=629&sz=21&tbnid=ZNp0xNN_wuwAjM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__6TGVXVgf8BRPqDfWQbzqEqr69A4=&docid=5oWcpHTR-Lr3SM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpryT5P9JejZ0QXWn5WwCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ9QEwAw&dur=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVW8DBHWXv8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kvH1SDn3I

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I don't want to get into semantic discussions on whether the wrists or forarms do the rolling.  You know exactly what was meant.

Luke and Bubba do not roll their wrists (Forearms if it makes you happy) after impact.  They continue to keep the club on plane and hinge their wrists upwards, If they rolled the club would be pointing to the side of them and not over their shoulder.   I think you may be getting confused with the way their wrists hinge.   You also seem to contradict yourself with the head lifting comment, it's the spine that lifts, the head is just attached to it.  Just like the forearms and wrists.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Daft!!   We are addressing handicap golfers here, not giving advice to the best players in the world that have exeptional timing and coordination.   Rolling the wrists for the average player is as I stated, a No Go.    

Maybe you could try a little harder to debate a subject without having to use statements like *'is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! *'  If you believe the statement to be wrong then be polite enough to explain why without the personal digs.
		
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There's nothing personal about it from my point of view. My opinion of the daftness or otherwise of the statement has no bearing on whether or not I think you are daft or not - I don't btw. And the 'it's daft...' statement had the 'imo' disclaimer, so you can take or leave my opinion as you see fit - I'm not bothered either way.

However, please answer the following 2 questions with simple yes/no answers.

Did your original post (in the V-Easy thread and quoted by me some posts back) mention anything about ;'handicap golfers'?

Do McIlroy, Donald and Bubba - in the links in my post above - 'roll their wrists' after impact.


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## JustOne (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Surely you agree that Donald's, McIlroy's and Bubba's wrists (forearms!) 'roll' after the ball has been hit.
		
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I don't agree.

In the 2 video examples their wrists are recocking, not rolling.


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## JustOne (Jul 4, 2012)

I'd take most of what this guy [below] writes as verbatim... so here's one small paragraph...




			Note that Aaron Baddeley does not actively manipulate his wrists/hands through the impact zone by flipping his hands at the ball. Not only is there no evidence of "flipping" of the hands, *there is also no evidence of any other hand or wrist manipulations eg. rolling the wrists over (right hand rolling over the left hand)* or any deliberate "holding the clubface open" type of hand manipulation. Many beginner golfers mistakenly believe that active hand movements are required to square the clubface at impact, but that belief is incorrect, and the clubface becomes square to the ball at impact as a result of perfectly synchronised body/arm movements.
		
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Actually one more line...



			In other words, it is critically important that a beginner golfer understand that perfect total body positioning squares the clubface at impact, *and not any last-minute, active hand manipulations*. The hands merely hold onto the club's grip while the golfer ensures that his body adopts a perfect impact position
		
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The rest is here...
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I don't agree.

In the 2 video examples their wrists are recocking, not rolling.
		
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Sorry JO. Wrist cocking alone cannot explain how (in Donald's vid) he gets from the position at 0:12 to impact at 0:13 and follow through at 0:14 and later. Look at how the 'V' (or 'Y') changes.

And I think you agreed that Bubba 'rolls'. I don't care why!

The bit (and pics) about Ernie at End of Follow Through and Finish Swivel action clearly shows the supination/pronation as posted (the V/Y change). I agree about Nicklaus (old-style) btw.


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## JustOne (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry JO. Wrist cocking alone cannot explain how (in Donald's vid) he gets from the position at 0:12 to impact at 0:13 and follow through at 0:14 and later. Look at how the 'V' (or 'Y') changes.

And I think you agreed that Bubba 'rolls'. I don't care why!
		
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Bubba rolls when hit's his big hook but only in relation to holding onto the club, nothing to do with the swing... if the club is swinging away from you at 130mph you have to pull it round else your arms extend until they pop out of their sockets! :mmm:,.... any 'appearance' of rolling occurs when the shoulders have turned to their full extent and then stop (as they can't possibly turn any more).

here's Luke.... funny how the guy says "old school" and "recocking"... that's just plain weird!!! 

2min 40 sec - 3 min 50 secs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O7gDTVCygo


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry JO. Wrist cocking alone cannot explain how (in Donald's vid) he gets from the position at 0:12 to impact at 0:13 and follow through at 0:14 and later. Look at how the 'V' (or 'Y') changes.

And I think you agreed that Bubba 'rolls'. I don't care why!
		
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For what it's worth you are wrong with both golfers.  Take it or leave it.


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## JustOne (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			The bit (and pics) about Ernie at End of Follow Through and Finish Swivel action clearly shows the supination/pronation as posted (the V/Y change). I agree about Nicklaus (old-style) btw.
		
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Ernie.....




			Note that Ernie's hands are neutrally aligned relative to the clubshaft and that the clubshaft is aligned along a line that passes between the two arms towards the navel - suggesting that Ernie Els has rotated his mid-torso sufficiently through the impact zone to keep the clubshaft in front of his body. Note that the clubface appears slightly closed to the ball-target line, but relatively neutral relative to the clubhead swingpath arc. *This proves that Els doesn't attempt to manipulate the club with his hands when hitting through the impact zone*. Many beginner golfers attempt to actively manipulate the golf club during the downswing - hoping to square the clubface with active hand manipulations. Professional golfers are wiser, and they know that they cannot possibly manipulate the clubface at the last minute with their hands when the clubhead is travelling at 100mph through the impact zone, and they know that the primary function of the hands is to passively, but firmly, hold onto the club as the clubhead passes through the impact zone!
		
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Ernie's swivel action is the result of his body stopping turning and the CHOSEN plane that he wants to have the shaft on (Luke Donald's CHOSEN shaft plane is a lot steeper as he recocks his wrists so the club doesn't 'lay left' as Ernie's does), he's not trying to hit the ball by rolling his wrists whatsoever.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Ernie's swivel action is the result of his body stopping turning and the CHOSEN plane that he wants to have the shaft on (Luke Donald's CHOSEN shaft plane is a lot steeper as he recocks his wrists so the club doesn't 'lay left' as Ernie's does), he's not trying to hit the ball by rolling his wrists whatsoever.
		
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I've never stated that anybody tries to hit the ball by rolling the wrists. I merely think SR's post stating that ...rolling wrists ... is a no go was akin to stating that you should keep your head still during the swing.

Luke still moves one wrist around/over the other - as well as having a wrist cock - after impact. Rather less than Ernie (did) or Bubba does. Again, I'm not interested in why, merely that it happens.

SR. You still haven't answered my 2 questions.


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## kid2 (Jul 4, 2012)

*Deleted*


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## JustOne (Jul 4, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			I've never stated that anybody tries to hit the ball by rolling the wrists. I merely think SR's post stating that ...rolling wrists ... is a no go was akin to stating that you should keep your head still during the swing.

Luke still moves one wrist around/over the other - as well as having a wrist cock - after impact. Rather less than Ernie (did) or Bubba does. Again, I'm not interested in why, merely that it happens.
		
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It's hard to explain but you don't use your wrists.. it's a bit like dropping a ball on the ground.. it WILL bounce..... you don't have to manipulate that with your wrists by trying to spin the ball in some way. Likewise in your swing you don't need to roll your wrists (or manipulate your clubhead) at all.... UNLESS you want to (like Ernie does AFTER he's hit the ball)... or HAVE to (eg: club moving away from you, or you rolled the thing open during your backswing!!)

....but either way anything that does happen (should it happen) does so loooong after the ball has left the clubface so you wouldn't be trying to manipulate the clubface whatsoever though the hitting area.


NB: You could even take rolling out of the equation altogether and start talking about 'flipping' which would be unhinging the wrists... which is ALSO something you shouldn't do.... I bet we can't even agree on that!!!!


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2012)

JustOne said:



			....but either way anything that does happen (should it happen) does so loooong after the ball has left the clubface so you wouldn't be trying to manipulate the clubface whatsoever though the hitting area.


NB: You could even take rolling out of the equation altogether and start talking about 'flipping' which would be unhinging the wrists... which is ALSO something you shouldn't do.... I bet we can't even agree on that!!!!   

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Happy to agree that 'flipping' as we both understand it is (extremely) undesirable.

I assume, from the post I quote, that you don't consider that 'rolling of wrist' some time after impact a 'No Go'. Merely a 'who cares, there are more important things to worry about' ne:. 

And STILL yet to receive the yes/no answers to the 2 questions I posed SR!


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## JustOne (Jul 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			I assume, from the post I quote, that you don't consider that 'rolling of wrist' some time after impact a 'No Go'. Merely a 'who cares, there are more important things to worry about' ne:.
		
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hmmmm...... you're testing my small yet perfectly formed brain! 

If we're talking about exact wording... then it probably doesn't matter if you let go of the club after you've hit the ball, you wouldn't really _play_ for that though. I'd say rolling the wrists IS a no no for an ideal swing... it's something that does happen, not for everyone, and isn't really something you should play for. It's an effect of a *BAD or CONTRIVED* motion rather than the reason for it.

To look at it objectively you need to look at what rolling the wrist actually DOES, not what it doesn't do, and what the causes are so you can either a) fix them b) live with them, it's NOT something you would teach.

If your upper body (hips and up) stop turning then your arms WILL take over and the wrists/forearms HAVE TO ROLL, if this happens AFTER you've hit the ball then you've been lucky and might well play a good shot... if it happens before (as with so many people that hook the ball) then you're dead in the water which is why we tell people that hook to make sure they are turning their hips through to a 'good finish'... in an effort to STOP the wrists rolling and shutting the face.

Faders generally have the opposite problem where they can literally 'anti-roll' their wrists and chicken wing their arms .... but again this is an effort on their behalf to hit the ball *with* their swing FAULTS.. they're not actually addressing the fault by chicken winging their elbow.... again, not something you would teach.

Is it a no no?
*Yes.*

Does it matter if you DO roll the wrists AFTER you've hit the ball?
*Not really.

*


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			And STILL yet to receive the yes/no answers to the 2 questions I posed SR!
		
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Iv,e been up the pub, sorry but that took priority over wrists in the golf swing. 

I don't want to answer on a YES/NO basis.  I have already told you a number of times that Luke and Bubba don't roll their wrists, they hinge them up and down. We will take that as a 'NO' then

With regard to handicap golfers:  My point was that you mentioned some tour players and said they they could roll their wrists and still hit the ball well.  My point was that we are not talking to Tour Players here, we are giving advice to the average club player and it is not a good idea for them to use any wrist roll in their golf swings.  We will also take that as a 'NO' 

I hope that satisfies your questions.   I somehow doubt it though.


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## JustOne (Jul 5, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Iv,e been up the pub, sorry but that took priority over wrists in the golf swing.
		
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You *clearly* need to rethink your priorities mate!!! :ears: 

:whoo::whoo::whoo:


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Is it a no no?
*Yes.*

Does it matter.....?
*Not really.

*

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Now there REALLY IS a self contradiction! 

BTW. How would 'teach' someone to (sling) hook the ball? It's a shot that's often required on one hole at my course!  Would you still consider the rolling of one wrist over the other a No No?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Now there REALLY IS a self contradiction! 

BTW. How would 'teach' someone to (sling) hook the ball? It's a shot that's often required on one hole at my course!  Would you still consider the rolling of one wrist over the other a No No?
		
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Sounds like you don't know how to hit a hook shot.  You don't turn the wrists over, that is a myth that has been put out for years by people that didn't understand the way golf balls react to impact.   Its the difference between clubface direction and swingpath that will apply sidespin.  Nothing else.

How can it be possible to influence ball direction by rotation the hands, the ball is only in contact with the clubface tor 6 millseconds, you must have very quick wrists.


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## sawtooth (Jul 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! 

Here's the sort of swing you could get to if you are obsessed with not rolling one wrist over the other - from about 1.45.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVFuPKilfLw





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Wrists do not roll they cock/uncock in a golf swing.


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## JustOne (Jul 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! 



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For the sake of 'wordology' and semantics I agree to an extent.... to say you *can't* do it is wrong, to say you *shouldn't* do it would be more correct. Ideally you shouldn't move your head.... but people do.

It would be wrong to teach someone to roll as it would be wrong to teach someone to wobble their head all over the place but if they can't hit it any other way then they have to do what they have to do, even though they shouldn't.

As I said previously the only summary that I can come up with is that in an *ideal* swing you wouldn't roll your wrists. As we know most of us choppers have far from ideal swings... the question is.....should we all pursue perfection?

NB: I wouldn't describe SR's reply as 'daft' particularly, just 'strict'  and in relation to his original post.....




			in another thread relating to my comment suggesting that the wrists should only hinge in an up and down manner during the swing and that rolling of the wrists caused problems for most golfers.
		
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he would be correct.


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## SGC001 (Jul 5, 2012)

Don't know if it helps you lot or not, but Cochran and Stobbs identified 5 main movements in a 'model' backswing. 

turn of the shoulders 
raising the arm
cocking the wrists
arm swung slightly across the chest and
roll of the left forearm.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2012)

SGC001 said:



			Don't know if it helps you lot or not, but Cochran and Stobbs identified 5 main movements in a 'model' backswing. 

turn of the shoulders 
raising the arm
cocking the wrists
arm swung slightly across the chest and
roll of the left forearm.
		
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It's a good book but was based much on what was going around in the 1960's


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## JustOne (Jul 5, 2012)

SGC001 said:



			Don't know if it helps you lot or not, but Cochran and Stobbs identified 5 main movements in a 'model' backswing.
		
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Plummer and Bennett also have a model swing..... 



:rofl::rofl:


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			How can it be possible to influence ball direction by rotation the hands, the ball is only in contact with the clubface tor 6 millseconds, you must have very quick wrists.
		
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Another contradictory - or (deliberately?) misqualified statement?

Given that the perceived cause of an unwanted hook is very often the rolling of one wrist over the other, either that rotation does influence the direction (I'm certain it does because if done before impact it closes the face) or your entire argument about rolling one wrist over/around being a bad thing collapses. 

I would have to assume that you are meaning ...rotating the hands during the 6 milliseconds (I'll take your word for it) that the club is in contact with the ball will have little influence on ball direction (or spin?).

Cochran and Stobbs may have published their work in 1968, but they got the 'ball flight laws' correct - something it took some folk approximately another 30years to agree with them.

And neither you (actually I didn't ask you) nor JO (who I did ask) have actually specified how you'd teach someone to (sling-)hook the ball - and what effect the changes from the 'normal' swing will have.

And perhaps to properly 'put this to bed', it's not that I would encourage 'wrist roll' on a normal shot - I would, in fact, (strongly)  discourage it before impact. It's the 'on any shot is a no go' that is wrong imo. Qualification such as 'is fraught with danger' or 'is generally a bad thing' would be acceptable though!


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## JustOne (Jul 6, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			And neither you (actually I didn't ask you) nor JO (who I did ask) have actually specified how you'd teach someone to (sling-)hook the ball - and what effect the changes from the 'normal' swing will have.
		
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I don't know what a sling hook is? I'm guessing it starts STRAIGHT(ish) and hooks left?

Clubface square at impact with a path that is in-to-out.

To get the path in-to-out enough to hook the ball you can do any (or all) of these things... ball back in stance, more weight on the left side, more shaft lean towards target, take the club more inside (rather than UP) on the backswing.

You don't need to roll your wrists to hit the hook as the clubface needs to be square (not closed) at impact for the shot I'm describing above.

I like to hit hooks that start a little to the right (an over-draw) so my clubface is open to the target at impact, again it has no wrist rolling else the clubface wouldn't be open. (I can probably move the ball 30yds right to left this way.... is that a sling?)

The thing that makes the ball hook is the relationship of the club face to the path. Once the ball has left the face (after 1/2000th of a second) it doesn't matter if you roll your wrists or chuck the club down the fairway.. it won't have any affect on the ball flight. Rolling them to TRY and get the hook is a waste of time, it does nothing to affect the ball flight whatsoever (only clubface/path/angle of attack are important).... but can *seriously* affect your ballflight should you for some reason roll it closed a fraction early (snap hook).


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2012)

JO. I think we can pretty much agree (notice how that's qualified!).

My understanding of a Sling-hook is a controlled shot that moves a considerable right to left (rightee) compared to the distance it goes 'forward'. For a 120-140 from the target shot, I was thinking about that 30-40-ish.
Here's the obvious recent (extreme) one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaq_SAtm3J8

Notice where his left wrist is at set-up compared right one and to shoulders (square at 39-40) and where it ends up in follow through (left above right and way past shoulders at 41). Wrists have 'rolled'. May not have rolled before impact, though I suspect that in Bubba's case they do! 

And if you check out 'How to hook golf' in Google, in those that aren't aimed at curing it, I haven't found one that doesn't specify 'rolling wrists'. As usual, there's something in virtually every one that's a bit 'h'mm-ish'!

And it has occurred to me that your approach - of simply specifying the club-face & path requirement does not consider HOW this is done, so if achieved by 'rolling wrists' you'd be content. Of course, that's rather different from HOW BEST done!

And also having read SR's initial post inn this thread, his interpretation of what I stated in the V-Easy thread is wrong, so this entire thread has been created on a 'false premise'!
My disagreement is with anyone stating unqualified 'you mustn't's etc.

And here's an interesting article I came across in my searches...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1130032/index.htm


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## JustOne (Jul 6, 2012)

Lots to cover in that post Foxy, but let's start with Hogan (from your link).... Hogan had the hooks!.... but what does that mean? Well by definition of the ballflight laws it MUST be that his path was too far to the right of the clubface so either his path was to in-to-out OR the clubface was too square/closed. So all that 'rolling' that he aspired too was losing him control of the face... so he made a change (weakened his left grip) to STOP himself from rolling or 'turning the club over'. His swing was literally a bag of faults..... or fixes whichever way you want to look at it (weak left grip/foot pulled back/elbows turned inside out and tied together with string! etc etc)... but for him it got the job done no worries, it stopped his ability to ROLL the clubface closed. Perhaps it was the curse of a one plane/flat swing? who knows..



Back to the Bubba example... he's holding onto the club (as I described in a previous post) yes the clubface has rolled over but not through impact, he doesn't/didn't manipulate the clubface to hit the hook, the swingpath did that after which the club was travelling away from him so violently you HAVE to save your arms from injury by pulling the club round.... 

Here's a pic of Bubba's amazing hook... probably won't help, but I made it any way...

The left pic is Bubba's [ahem!] normal plane and path.

The middle pic shows his new path which is lined up very much to the left (laid over the normal plane pic)

The right pic shows how the follow through path gets 'chopped' as the hands pull the club back around the body.... this would be the part late on in his swing where you say he 'rolls' his arms... he does.. he has to, it's nothing to do with hitting the ball though, that part has long been taken care of.





I'm sure you can dig up lots of examples where people have said that you roll your wrists... I can find tons of it on Youtube so this conversation can go on and on and on. I feel I've made my point that you don't need to roll your wrists to hit any shot so it shouldn't be thought of as part of the swing... what happens through the ball is purely a result of what you did on the way down. if you don't roll the face open on the way back you don't need to roll it back again on the way down - simples.

I do have some video stuff (off the tele) that I might upload one day which shows various players hitting hooks and the commentator saying "He's closed the face and rolled the hands over to hit that"... then when you see the slow motion you can see the face is WIDE OPEN on the follow through :thup: and we're not talking 28 h/cap commentators either.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2012)

JO. I keep saying that we (you and I) are in agreement.

It's only the *unqualified* (not as in exams btw) statement that 'rolling the is a no-go for any golf shot' that is wrong imo. I believe there have been enough examples that show wrists being 'rolled' to confirm my opinion. Certainly undesireable (imo) beore impact, but that wasn't what SR's stated.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			JO. I keep saying that we (you and I) are in agreement.

It's only the *unqualified* (not as in exams btw) statement that 'rolling the is a no-go for any golf shot' that is wrong imo. I believe there have been enough examples that show wrists being 'rolled' to confirm my opinion. Certainly undesireable (imo) beore impact, but that wasn't what SR's stated.
		
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Its a bit of a waste of time trying to debate this with you.  You have a habit of picking out semantics and irrelevances then going completely off subject.    

YOU KNOW fair well when I said that turning or rolling the wrists was a no go in the golf swing that I was referring to what happened up to the point of impact, it's too obvious  to state that if you do it after impact it will not affect the ball flight. You have shown a number of videos that rather than disprove my theory it supported it.   You have thrown in things to do with lifting the head and rolling the wrists which were also flawed.   You have used the argument that the wrists cannot turn and that its the forearms.

It seems to me that you are a  person who is making arguments just for the sake of it, or maybe you have some kind of inferiority complex on golfing matters.   No need as JO and I have not been trying to discredit you, we have just been trying to answer the number of spanners tossed into the proverbial works.

So Foxy, I wait with bated breath on where you would like to take this journey next.


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## sawtooth (Jul 6, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			JO. I keep saying that we (you and I) are in agreement.

It's only the *unqualified* (not as in exams btw) statement that 'rolling the is a no-go for any golf shot' that is wrong imo. I believe there have been enough examples that show wrists being 'rolled' to confirm my opinion. Certainly undesireable (imo) beore impact, but that wasn't what SR's stated.
		
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I find it difficult to believe that plenty of pros roll their wrists on purpose. I would like to read about this, where can I look this up?


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## DaveM (Jul 6, 2012)

Been reading this thread with interest and amusement. Rolling wrists/ arms or what ever you want to call it. is a no no in the backswing and downswing. After impact who the hell cares what you do. Its of no consequence


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2012)

DaveM said:



			Been reading this thread with interest and amusement. Rolling wrists/ arms or what ever you want to call it. is a no no in the backswing and downswing. After impact who the hell cares what you do. Its of no consequence
		
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Exactly.


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## JustOne (Jul 7, 2012)

DaveM said:



			Been reading this thread with interest and amusement. Rolling wrists/ arms or what ever you want to call it. is a no no in the backswing and downswing. After impact who the hell cares what you do. Its of no consequence
		
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I don't think it's as simple as saying it doesn't matter after impact as you shouldn't go into the downswing with the INTENTION of rolling your wrists as it's practically impossible to time.

If anything happens at all I'd suggest it's when the arms naturally 'collect' the club as it comes around the body in the LATE follow through (once the shoulders stop turning).


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			YOU KNOW fair well when I said that turning or rolling the wrists was a no go in the golf swing that I was referring to what happened up to the point of impact, it's too obvious  to state that if you do it after impact it will not affect the ball flight.
		
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Your 'No-Go' statement was quite emphatic, whether deliberately or not, So nothing in that ststament allowed me to make that interpretation.

And by your emphatic agreement with DaveM's qualification, the implication is that it's OK, if perhaps undesirable, to roll one wrist over the other *after impact.

*And a simple yes/no answer will suffice.


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## SGC001 (Jul 7, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			It's a good book but was based much on what was going around in the 1960's
		
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They did examine this area and devoted a chapter or 2 to it. They have some intersting diagrams on how they believe a swing would look without wrist roll or some of the other movements. They talk of greater and lesser roll and use relatively strong language for scientists like indescribable anatomical complications or as near as a human being can possiby come to that of the ideal machine.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Your 'No-Go' statement was quite emphatic, whether deliberately or not, So nothing in that ststament allowed me to make that interpretation.

And by your emphatic agreement with DaveM's qualification, the implication is that it's OK, if perhaps undesirable, to roll one wrist over the other *after impact.

*And a simple yes/no answer will suffice.
		
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As you are not much of a Yes/No person then I don't see why you expect me to be.

Of course it matters not a hoot technically what happens after the ball has left the clubface.  If you did a triple pirouette and stuffed the club into your ear-hole the ball flight would not change.

NOW!!  What I do think is that if you have made a good swing into impact with the club square to the swingpath, the core rotating and the club releasing on into the follow through without unnecessary manipulation, then there will be no need at all to turn the wrists over, the momentum will be naturally taken up by the re-hinging of the wrists in a upward direction keeping the clubface still square.

I would guess that even someone who has a tendency to err (how can I put it) on the 'nit picking' side of discussion would agree with that.  Or maybe, true to form you will find some minor (dare I suggest daft) semantic error.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course it matters not a hoot technically what happens after the ball has left the clubface.  If you did a triple pirouette and stuffed the club into your ear-hole the ball flight would not change.

NOW!!  What I do think is that if you have made a good swing into impact with the club square to the swingpath, the core rotating and the club releasing on into the follow through without unnecessary manipulation, then there will be no need at all to turn the wrists over, the momentum will be naturally taken up by the re-hinging of the wrists in a upward direction keeping the clubface still square.
		
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Ok. You've changed from NO-GO to No need. That's sufficient admission for me. And yes, there are several issues that a pedant such as me could point out but let's 'put this one to bed'.

One last( entertaining as it demonstrates both your first para and JO(I believe) and my opinion)! vid about scary post-impact manipulation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J91acJP66C0


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			One last( entertaining as it demonstrates both your first para and JO(I believe) and my opinion)! vid about scary post-impact manipulation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J91acJP66C0

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Re: the Vid:
He has the pirouette off to a tee but he's not so good at getting it into his ear.   I am sure Bob could come up with a Prototype 'V' Easy that would assist there.


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## JustOne (Jul 7, 2012)

The V-Earsy? 





I'll get ma coat...................


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The V-Earsy? 


I'll get ma coat...................
		
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  :clap:


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## SoapbarSE (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi all, I'm new to these forums but just wanted to post to say thanks for the helpful posts in this forum. I got the golf bug last summer and have been studying/working at the game ever since. 

I have used a couple of great drills from "How to win the three games of golf" to get the correct shoulder/hip pivot and arm position in the swing, and my consistency improved, taking my best score to 88.

This thread has shown to me a big area of the swing that I have overlooked/mis-understood. I have been rolling my wrists in the backswing, opening my clubface, causing me to either slice right or pull to the left (rolling quickly at impact to compensate). I got a swinggyde yesterday and I couldn't get it in the right positions very easily, particulary when the club was hip high (where I've been rolling my wrist, opening face). After having read through this the penny has dropped - I need to train just to rotate shoulders/arms and then HINGE my wrists UP (not ROLL them OPEN)!

So thanks SocketRocket, JustOne, sawtooth, your posts have really improved and changed my understanding of my golf swing. I set myself the challenge to par my local course within a year, this can only bring me closer 

Sam


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2012)

SoapbarSE said:



			Hi all, I'm new to these forums but just wanted to post to say thanks for the helpful posts in this forum. I got the golf bug last summer and have been studying/working at the game ever since. 

I have used a couple of great drills from "How to win the three games of golf" to get the correct shoulder/hip pivot and arm position in the swing, and my consistency improved, taking my best score to 88.

This thread has shown to me a big area of the swing that I have overlooked/mis-understood. I have been rolling my wrists in the backswing, opening my clubface, causing me to either slice right or pull to the left (rolling quickly at impact to compensate). I got a swinggyde yesterday and I couldn't get it in the right positions very easily, particulary when the club was hip high (where I've been rolling my wrist, opening face). After having read through this the penny has dropped - I need to train just to rotate shoulders/arms and then HINGE my wrists UP (not ROLL them OPEN)!

So thanks SocketRocket, JustOne, sawtooth, your posts have really improved and changed my understanding of my golf swing. I set myself the challenge to par my local course within a year, this can only bring me closer 

Sam
		
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Cheers Sam.  Welcome to the Asylum.

Glad to hear we have been of some help, it sounds like you have picked up on an important part of the golf swing that should help with you achieving your goal.  Good luck :thup:


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## One Planer (Jul 9, 2012)

Gentlemen (..... and Ladies)

Does the timing of the release differ as the club gets longer and the ball position moves forward?


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## DaveM (Jul 9, 2012)

Maybe not much help! But found its one of those things that just happen. If I try to think about it alsorts go wrong. But I guess to put it in prospective. It takes a milli-second to happen, far quicker than you can think what to do.


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## One Planer (Jul 9, 2012)

DaveM said:



			Maybe not much help! But found its one of those things that just happen. If I try to think about it alsorts go wrong. But I guess to put it in prospective. It takes a milli-second to happen, far quicker than you can think what to do.
		
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Very true Dave 

I "think" I'm not allowing my wrists to un-hinge and holding the face slightly open through impact. 

Just a question I thought I'd pose on the thread topic as it seemed relevant.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Very true Dave 

I "think" I'm not allowing my wrists to un-hinge and holding the face slightly open through impact. 

Just a question I thought I'd pose on the thread topic as it seemed relevant.
		
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Try not to hold onto the lag with your wrists, this can create the shot you mentioned due to keeping the clubface open.. Think of your wrists more as oiled hinges that release on their own due to your body rotation.    Also feel the butt end of the shaft points in towards your core (or only slightly ahead of it)  at impact,   If it leans too far forward you will have problems making a good hit.


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## sawtooth (Jul 10, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Think of your wrists more as oiled hinges that release on their own .
		
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I second that. I think the uncocking of the wrist should just happen without you thinking about it.


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