# Big Ben



## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Cost of repairs now rising another third to £80 million.

Knock the blooming thing down instead. A disgraceful waste of taxpayers money.


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## Robin Hood (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Cost of repairs now rising another third to £80 million.

Knock the blooming thing down instead. A disgraceful waste of taxpayers money.
		
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Or sell it to the Americans 😂😂

I haven't read the report but how can they get it so wrong. If it was privately owned there is no way that it could happen. Public sector money is so wasted it's almost criminal.


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Cost of repairs now rising another third to £80 million.

Knock the blooming thing down instead. A disgraceful waste of taxpayers money.
		
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Oof
Calm down, that's only 2 days worth of brexit money. We've got 350 mil a week to spend.


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2020)

Totally disagree, a very important building that should be preserved for the nation.
£400 000 000 on the Scottish parliament building that was meant to cost about 10% of that was a waste of money.
Not convinced about HS2 either.


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

A national monument that deserves preservation I'd say is worth it for our nations history. Better idea scrap HS2 and divert the funds from that to the restoration project. All that wasted money so some men in suits can get to London 20mins quicker is a far bigger issue.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

KenL said:



			Totally disagree, a very important building that should be preserved for the nation.
£400 000 000 on the Scottish parliament building that was meant to cost about 10% of that was a waste of money.
Not convinced about HS2 either.
		
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Its a blooming clock. 

£80 million to save a clock. Absolutely laughable.


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## Norrin Radd (Feb 13, 2020)

Big Ben is the name of the bell not the bell tower


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Big Ben is the name of the bell not the bell tower
		
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Couldn't care less if the bell was called Big Breasted Betty Bell its still a disgrace to waste taxes on it to that level.


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Couldn't care less if the bell was called Big Breasted Betty Bell its still a disgrace to waste taxes on it to that level.
		
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It is just over £1 for every person in the country.  I'd happily pay my share. I'll even pay your's Jacko if you'll stop whinging. ;-)


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2020)

It is an iconic building for the nation so does need to be looked after. I'm sure I could have done the repairs for £75m though, still making a tidy profit . 

How can it really cost that much? It is scary how these figures are thrown around.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

KenL said:



			It is just over £1 for every person in the country.  I'd happily pay my share. I'll even pay your's Jacko if you'll stop whinging. ;-)
		
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Yet we have people dying on waiting lists and £80 million on a clock is acceptable?


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Cost of repairs now rising another third to £80 million.

Knock the blooming thing down instead. A disgraceful waste of taxpayers money.
		
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i'd imagine if it were a dilapidated victorian public building anywhere else in the UK that sort of money wouldn't be being spend to referb it.... Buck palace too for that matter


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i'd imagine if it were a dilapidated victorian public building anywhere else in the UK that sort of money would be being spend to referb it.... Buck palace too for that matter
		
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This it’s in London so it’s ok.


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Yet we have people dying on waiting lists and £80 million on a clock is acceptable?
		
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maybe if the NHS didn't waste so much money on multi levels of management and hadn't been lumbered with PFI contracts then they'd had more money to spend on treating people


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## Dibby (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i'd imagine if it were a dilapidated victorian public building anywhere else in the UK that sort of money wouldn't be being spend to referb it.... Buck palace too for that matter
		
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On the other side, I'd imagine Big Ben and Buckingham palace somewhat contribute to bringing in a few more tourist pounds than other random dilapidated buildings.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Dando said:



			maybe if the NHS didn't waste so much money on multi levels of management and hadn't been lumbered with PFI contracts then they'd had more money to spend on treating people
		
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Or maybe if they were funded to an acceptable level...….


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Dibby said:



			On the other side, I'd imagine Big Ben and Buckingham palace somewhat contribute to bringing in a few more tourist pounds than other random dilapidated buildings.
		
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Correct they bring money to London which stays in London. A clock given an £80 makeover, where else in Britain would that happen??? Absolutely nowhere. 

Tax payers money wasted.


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Correct they bring money to London which stays in London. A clock given an £80 makeover, where else in Britain would that happen??? Absolutely nowhere.

Tax payers money wasted.
		
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Interesting how you skirt other issues raised though Jacko someone here mentioned the waste of money on Scottish parliamentary building going way over budget, that's nothing to do with London so is that excess ok? Or HS2 does that not deem worthy of acknowledgement because they're not specifically in London


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## Robster59 (Feb 13, 2020)

Dando said:



			maybe if the NHS didn't waste so much money on multi levels of management and hadn't been lumbered with PFI contracts then they'd had more money to spend on treating people
		
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I'd have to agree with this.  It's not so much the funding but how it's spent.  As a supplier into the NHS I've seen the amount of money the various contractors and PFI sucks out from treatment and into their shareholders profits.  

For the Elizabeth Tower (what it's actually called) then I agree that we seem to let people keep ramping up the costs.  Part of this is that when the tender for work is specified, it's not specified correctly and so whilst the supplier bids for what is in the tender, if the parameters change then they are contractually allowed to increase the charge as there is extra work outside the scope of the original tender.  
I see it all the time.  We have now learnt from experience to make it absolutely clear to our customers that we are bidding on the tender as presented to us.  If they want to change the parameters post that, there is a cost involved.


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I'd have to agree with this.  It's not so much the funding but how it's spent.  As a supplier into the NHS I've seen the amount of money the various contractors and PFI sucks out from treatment and into their shareholders profits. 

For the Elizabeth Tower (what it's actually called) then I agree that we seem to let people keep ramping up the costs.  Part of this is that when the tender for work is specified, it's not specified correctly and so whilst the supplier bids for what is in the tender, if the parameters change then they are contractually allowed to increase the charge as there is extra work outside the scope of the original tender. 
I see it all the time.  We have now learnt from experience to make it absolutely clear to our customers that we are bidding on the tender as presented to us.  If they want to change the parameters post that, there is a cost involved.
		
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my old company used to insure some of the PFI contracts and the numbers involved were truly eye watering


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Or maybe if they were funded to an acceptable level...….
		
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the unnecessary levels of management and eye watering PFI repayments are sucking the funding out of the NHS


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

KenL said:



			Totally disagree, a very important building that should be preserved for the nation.
£400 000 000 on the Scottish parliament building that was meant to cost about 10% of that was a waste of money.
Not convinced about HS2 either.
		
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The reasons for the increased cost are outlined here.  Lessons to be Learnt for HS2?  Some increases are due to a change in site from that assumed for initial estimates; and some are related to probably unforeseeable changes to design that were required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Correct they bring money to London which stays in London. A clock given an £80 makeover, where else in Britain would that happen??? Absolutely nowhere.

Tax payers money wasted.
		
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Would tourists stop coming to London if the Elizabeth Tower fell down and wasn't rebuilt, or if the London residence of the Monarch was converted into a hotel?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Interesting how you skirt other issues raised though Jacko someone here mentioned the waste of money on Scottish parliamentary building going way over budget, that's nothing to do with London so is that excess ok? Or HS2 does that not deem worthy of acknowledgement because they're not specifically in London
		
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Well you see the thread was about the astronomical price of refurbishing a mere click nothing to do with Scotland having the right to have its own parliamentary building. There is an SNP bashing thread already on the go.

In relation to HS2, the Scottish economy is funding millions towards that however I believe we actually get a miniscule benefit back through the outdated barnett formula. Again the thread has nothing to do with HS2, just another politicians deflection tactic.

So back on track. A complete waste of tax payers money. £80 million on a clock.


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The reasons for the increased cost are outlined here.  Lessons to be Learnt for HS2?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

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Wikipedia?
that's about as reliable as your former barber!


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Interesting how you skirt other issues raised though Jacko someone here mentioned the waste of money on Scottish parliamentary building going way over budget, that's nothing to do with London so is that excess ok? Or HS2. Ir do that not deem worthy of acknowledgement because they're not specifically in London
		
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no one is happy about that either TBH, thats costing the Scottish taxpayer plenty, but they needed a building


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Dando said:



			the unnecessary levels of management and eye watering PFI repayments are sucking the funding out of the NHS
		
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As is the Tory government


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## CliveW (Feb 13, 2020)

KenL said:



			It is just over £1 for every person in the country.  I'd happily pay my share. I'll even pay your's Jacko if you'll stop whinging. ;-)
		
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You already are paying for it!


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Well you see the thread was about the astronomical price of refurbishing a mere click nothing to do with Scotland having the right to have its own parliamentary building. There is an SNP bashing thread already on the go.

In relation to HS2, the Scottish economy is funding millions towards that however I believe we actually get a miniscule benefit back through the outdated barnett formula. Again the thread has nothing to do with HS2, just another politicians deflection tactic.

So back on track. A complete waste of tax payers money. £80 million on a clock.
		
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Sorry Jacko but you're clearly having one of your im right nobody can expand on a conversation threads. Its your way or no way, toys out the pram talk about my subject only and if you have a different opinion I'll tell you to go elsewhere. Nobody has bashed Scotlands right its own parliamentary building, it was brought up because of the ridiculous rise in additional costs, nothing to do with bashing SNP. Put your dummy back in not everything people say about Scotland is bashing them. Its a mere direct comparison on a building cost outside of London.

The clock tower is worthy of restoration, if you don't want people comparing costs maybe you shouldn't have started the thread. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			no one is happy about that either TBH, thats costing the Scottish taxpayer plenty, but they needed a building
		
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I agree it needed building but the costs became ridiculous. As for HS2 there is far less need for that to allow a 20min quicker commute when so many other areas need better transport links in order to reduce car usage


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## Dibby (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Correct they bring money to London which stays in London. A clock given an £80 makeover, where else in Britain would that happen??? Absolutely nowhere.

Tax payers money wasted.
		
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Why is it a waste? 

Should we ignore the fact that London makes up about 15% of the whole UK population when making spending decisions?
Should Glasgow get the same funding as London despite being 1/10th the size in population terms?

Is it an issue that London and the SE tax take is more than is spent on their populations, so is shared with the rest of the UK or is that part of the equation ok, and only the spending in those regions is the problem?


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I agree it needed building but the costs became ridiculous. As for HS2 there is fsr less need for that ti allow a 20min quicker commute when so many other areas need better transport links in order to reduce car usage
		
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HS2 is a direct benifit to London, so that why its being built.. now a high speed link between London, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow or Edin fair enought


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			HS2 is a direct benifit to London, so that why its being built.. now a high speed link between London, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow or Edin fair enought
		
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I know why its being built, but there is no need to build something that does nothing but reduce commutes by 20mins. 
Your idea that would link huge parts is a much better one and benefit far more people


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## Dibby (Feb 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would tourists stop coming to London if the Elizabeth Tower fell down and wasn't rebuilt, or if the London residence of the Monarch was converted into a hotel?
		
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Will the frog notice if we increase the water in the pot by just one degree?

Take any of these buildings on their own no, but as a whole, if we carry through this policy to all historic monuments then yes.


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## Old Colner (Feb 13, 2020)

I think the issue people are missing with this project and so many others that are publicly funded is how disastrously wrong the initial figure is, how do they derive their figures and also nobody ever seems accountable.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 13, 2020)

Got my popcorn for how long this thread lasts - at least I can look at Big Ben to see the exact time.


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## rudebhoy (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Its a blooming clock.

£80 million to save a clock. Absolutely laughable.
		
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Totally agree. It's a mind blowing sum, I'm sure for a couple of million they could have done whatever is needed to stop it falling down, who cares if it chimes or not?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sorry Jacko but you're clearly having one of your im right nobody can expand on a conversation threads. Its your way or no way, toys out the pram talk about my subject only and if you have a different opinion I'll tell you to go elsewhere. Nobody has bashed Scotlands right its own parliamentary building, it was brought up because of the ridiculous rise in additional costs, nothing to do with bashing SNP. Put your dummy back in not everything people say about Scotland is bashing them. Its a mere direct comparison on a building cost outside of London.

The clock tower is worthy of restoration, if you don't want people comparing costs maybe you shouldn't have started the thread. 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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Wrong again. It's a compete waste of money £80 million on a useless clock.


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Wrong again. It's a compete waste of money £80 million on a useless clock.
		
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And there is the post that actually proves my point to be right Jacko.. 

You don't like differing opinion or comparison you'll just keep repeating yourself telling others they're wrong. Quite sad really 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Got my popcorn for how long this thread lasts - at least I can look at Big Ben to see the exact time.
		
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Not at the minute you can't .

The question can be asked of all monuments around the country. Should they be preserved, how much should we spend preserving them? Some are part of our heritage and identity and I would argue this is such a one.


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## DaveR (Feb 13, 2020)

Agree it is a ridiculous amount of money and I'm sure Bob the builder could do it for £50 but I am detecting a few 'non London' chips on shoulders here.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			And there is the post that actually proves my point to be right Jacko..

You don't like differing opinion or comparison you'll just keep repeating yourself telling others they're wrong. Quite sad really 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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😂😂😂

£80 million of taxpayers money on a clock is not value. It's actually disgusting for a bit of masonry and a big bell.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Agree it is a ridiculous amount of money and I'm sure Bob the builder could do it for £50 but I am detecting a few 'non London' chips on shoulders here.
		
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Shoe on the other foot perhaps.

🤭


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## DaveR (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Shoe on the other foot perhaps.

🤭
		
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Nope I don't live anywhere near London.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Nope I don't live anywhere near London.
		
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I wasn't referring specifically to your good self old bean

👍


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 13, 2020)

Dando said:



			my old company used to insure some of the PFI contracts and the numbers involved were truly eye watering
		
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The NHS has both a funding problem and a spending problem, but I think we can only fix one...


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## Robin Hood (Feb 13, 2020)

This is turning into a real Ding Dong argument 🤔


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## 4LEX (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Correct they bring money to London which stays in London. A clock given an £80 makeover, where else in Britain would that happen??? Absolutely nowhere.

Tax payers money wasted.
		
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London is the capital of the UK and one of the most important cities on the planet. A multicultural hub of history, tourism, economics, science and the arts. Big Ben is one of the most famous sights in London and clearly deserves this money.

 If you think London shouldn't get special attention then you're the one that needs your head checking


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

Why not replace all the antiquated working parts with a modern digital clock while retaining the original external appearance?
The audio aspects could easily be electronically simulated.

If the tower itself is structurally unsound, I'd think twice about not fixing it.

A great cathedral burned down in Paris. As a secular person, I still think that was a terrible thing.

When you stop restoring your cultural landmarks, you get closer and closer to becoming American.

You don't want that.


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Why not replace all the antiquated working parts with a modern digital clock while retaining the original external appearance?
The audio aspects could easily be electronically simulated.

If the tower itself is structurally unsound, I'd think twice about not fixing it.

A great cathedral burned down in Paris. As a secular person, I still think that was a terrible thing.

When you stop restoring your cultural landmarks, you get closer and closer to becoming American.

You don't want that.
		
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a big difference between a 1000 year old Cathedral and a victorian clock tower


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			a big difference between a 1000 year old Cathedral and a victorian clock tower
		
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As a tourist, I enjoyed seeing it.
My taxes won't be what fixes it, so all I can do is share my perspective.


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## DaveR (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			a big difference between a 1000 year old Cathedral and a victorian clock tower
		
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The Palace of Westminster is a UNESCO world heritage site. It would be bizarre not to maintain it.


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## 4LEX (Feb 13, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Why not replace all the antiquated working parts with a modern digital clock while retaining the original external appearance?
The audio aspects could easily be electronically simulated.
		
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I did double check it wasn't April 1st when I read this! 

Why don't we get Apple to pay for it and rename it Big Ben's Apple and have a four sided Apple Watch on the top?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is an iconic building for the nation so does need to be looked after. I'm sure I could have done the repairs for £75m though, still making a tidy profit .

How can it really cost that much? It is scary how these figures are thrown around.
		
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It's all down to the cost of maintaining all the levels of pen pushing box ticking desk jockeys reputedly required to manage a relative handful of folk at the 'coal face'...


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would tourists stop coming to London if the Elizabeth Tower fell down and wasn't rebuilt, or if the London residence of the Monarch was converted into a hotel?
		
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Probably... What's the point of Paris without the Eifel Tower or Sydney minus the Opera House/Harbour Bridge?


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Probably... What's the point of Paris without the Eifel Tower or Sydney minus the Opera House/Harbour Bridge?
		
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hasn't it been covered over for the last few years so no one could see it anyway, yet tourists still flocked. you could have reolaced it with a giant inflatable and a doubt they would have noticed


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

4LEX said:



			London is the capital of the UK and one of the most important cities on the planet. A multicultural hub of history, tourism, economics, science and the arts. Big Ben is one of the most famous sights in London and clearly deserves this money.

If you think London shouldn't get special attention then you're the one that needs your head checking 

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London may be your capital it's certainly not my capital.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			hasn't it been covered over for the last few years so no one could see it anyway, yet tourists still flocked. you could have reolaced it with a giant inflatable and a doubt they would have noticed

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You can fool some of the people some of the time but never all of the people all of the time...


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## 4LEX (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			London may be your capital it's certainly not my capital.
		
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I didn't say it was mine either, did I? That's irrelevent. I simply stated a fact. As the capital of the UK it deserves extra investment. In fact in terms of what London brings in from business, tourism and taxes it's a drop in the ocean.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I didn't say it was mine either, did I? That's irrelevent. I simply stated a fact. As the capital of the UK it deserves extra investment. In fact in terms of what London brings in from business, tourism and taxes it's a drop in the ocean.
		
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The UK is not a country and does not have a singular capital.


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## arnieboy (Feb 13, 2020)

Oh dear....


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			The UK is not a country and does not have a singular capital.
		
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In your opinion...
London, the capital of England and the United Kingdom, is a 21st-century city with history stretching back to Roman times. At its centre stand the imposing Houses of Parliament, the iconic ‘Big Ben’ clock tower and Westminster Abbey, site of British monarch coronations. Across the Thames River, the London Eye observation wheel provides panoramic views of the South Bank cultural complex, and the entire city.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

KenL said:



			In your opinion...
London, the capital of England and the United Kingdom, is a 21st-century city with history stretching back to Roman times. At its centre stand the imposing Houses of Parliament, the iconic ‘Big Ben’ clock tower and Westminster Abbey, site of British monarch coronations. Across the Thames River, the London Eye observation wheel provides panoramic views of the South Bank cultural complex, and the entire city.
		
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The UK is not a country. End of discussion - and London isn't my capital.


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			The UK is not a country. End of discussion - and London isn't my capital.
		
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With any luck you won’t visit London then!


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Dando said:



			With any luck you won’t visit London then!
		
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Correct I won't. 

No attraction for me.


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			The UK is not a country. End of discussion - and London isn't my capital.
		
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Your's is not the only opinion that matters.  People across the world see London as the UK capital.  I am from Scotland and consider myself British.  I see Endiburgh as the Scottish capital (a regional capital if you like) but London as the actual capital.  Is that "end of discussion"?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

KenL said:



			Your's is not the only opinion that matters.  People across the world see London as the UK capital.  I am from Scotland and consider myself British.  I see Endiburgh as the Scottish capital (a regional capital if you like) but London as the actual capital.  Is that "end of discussion"?
		
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Nope. UK is not a country hence why it's not my capital.

That really isn't too difficult to understand. London is England's capital not the capital of Wales, Ireland or Scotland.


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Nope. UK is not a country hence why it's not my capital.

That really isn't too difficult to understand. London is England's capital not the capital of Wales, Ireland or Scotland.
		
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Are you suggesting that I am stupid?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

KenL said:



			Are you suggesting that I am stupid?
		
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Far from it. 

I am just explaining my logic as to why London is not my capital. 

God save our Nicola. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I did double check it wasn't April 1st when I read this!

Why don't we get Apple to pay for it and rename it Big Ben's Apple and have a four sided Apple Watch on the top?
		
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Sorry.  This is what you have to expect when an American tries to offer help.


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Nope. UK is not a country hence why it's not my capital.

That really isn't too difficult to understand. London is England's capital not the capital of Wales, Ireland or Scotland.
		
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Jacko_G said:



			Nope. UK is not a country hence why it's not my capital.

That really isn't too difficult to understand. London is England's capital not the capital of Wales, Ireland or Scotland.
		
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This might be your opinion,  but it certainly is a country according to the United Nations. http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-in-the-un/


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			This might be your opinion,  but it certainly is a country according to the United Nations. http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-in-the-un/

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Guess they're also wrong as the UK is not a country.


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Guess they're also wrong as the UK is not a country.
		
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Of course because you are always right,  sorry I forgot.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Of course because you are always right,  sorry I forgot.
		
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I am right.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 13, 2020)

Crawford, if my name was Nicholas Parsons I’d have buzzed you for repetition about 10 times. 

You have said your bit and your reasoning behind it (which is fair enough as it is your opinion and you have a right to it)

But if anyone disagrees with you, you just sling the same words back at them again and again, not just this thread either.

Change the record man.

You are the first to shout at the merest whiff of an anti Scotland post or thread.  The comparison of the Scottish Parliament Building budget is a perfectly valid point and your reaction predictable.

Please accept that other people will have different opinions to yours, agree to disagree and move on,


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## Britishshooting (Feb 13, 2020)

It’s a crazy amount to spend on a clock but so be it get it done.

London generates more than its fair share of revenue and attracts more businessmen and wealth than any other UK city. It’s a drop in the ocean and we shouldn’t have to sacrifice any of our heritage especially in London.

Scotland’s deficit is shambolic, so I always find it hilarious when such hatred is shown towards London and spending.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 13, 2020)

It's quite simple in my opinion. It deserves to be restored simply for what it is and the world renowned reputation as a world icon and tourist spot in the same way should something happen to Edinburgh Castle, Forth Bridge, or any similar famous site in any part of the Union.


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2020)

Just for clarification  here is the definition of capital city:

"the city or town that functions as the seat of government and administrative centre of a country or region."


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			It’s a crazy amount to spend on a clock but so be it get it done.

London generates more than its fair share of revenue and attracts more businessmen and wealth than any other UK city. It’s a drop in the ocean and we shouldn’t have to sacrifice any of our heritage especially in London.

Scotland’s deficit is shambolic, so I always find it hilarious when such hatred is shown towards London and spending.
		
Click to expand...

There is absolutely no "hatred" in my post. Simple disgust at such a phenomenal waste of taxpayers money.

The government would be better giving that money to the Met.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Crawford, if my name was Nicholas Parsons I’d have buzzed you for repetition about 10 times.

You have said your bit and your reasoning behind it (which is fair enough as it is your opinion and you have a right to it)

But if anyone disagrees with you, you just sling the same words back at them again and again, not just this thread either.

Change the record man.

You are the first to shout at the merest whiff of an anti Scotland post or thread.  The comparison of the Scottish Parliament Building budget is a perfectly valid point and your reaction predictable.

Please accept that other people will have different opinions to yours, agree to disagree and move on,
		
Click to expand...

Funnily enough I don't see you taking your Billy Big Boy stance in the SNP thread.

Funny that.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 13, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Funnily enough I don't see you taking your Billy Big Boy stance in the SNP thread.

Funny that.
		
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Coz no one south of Gretna green is interested in the roundabout discussion of the SNP. 😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2020)

It’s a national monument, a big token of the nations history along with many other places in all the countries within the UK and the money would be spent on it if it was in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I agree it needed building but the costs became ridiculous. As for HS2 there is far less need for that to allow a 20min quicker commute when so many other areas need better transport links in order to reduce car usage
		
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There's a valid argument that saving people from reaching Birmingham for another 20 minutes is a public service..


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 13, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Why not replace all the antiquated working parts with a modern digital clock while retaining the original external appearance?
The audio aspects could easily be electronically simulated.

If the tower itself is structurally unsound, I'd think twice about not fixing it.

A great cathedral burned down in Paris. As a secular person, I still think that was a terrible thing.

*When you stop restoring your cultural landmarks, you get closer and closer to becoming American.*

You don't want that.
		
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Boomer, you do America a disservice, some of the most stunning monuments I seen have been in the USA.


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2020)

N


Blue in Munich said:



			Boomer, you do America a disservice, some of the most stunning monuments I seen have been in the USA.
		
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Just wait until that lovely new wall is built!


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			It’s a crazy amount to spend on a clock but so be it get it done.

London generates more than its fair share of revenue and attracts more businessmen and wealth than any other UK city. It’s a drop in the ocean and we shouldn’t have to sacrifice any of our heritage especially in London.

Scotland’s deficit is shambolic, so I always find it hilarious when such hatred is shown towards London and spending.
		
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i would have to disagree, scotland s def is expected to be paid for by Scotland yet big infrastructure projets in the Uk are paid for by all of us,... For instance when a bridge for Skye was finally built westminster wouldn't and refused to pay for it so private funding had to be used, why does the UK tax payer have to foot the bill for a massive benifit for London, the richest city it the UK?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Boomer, you do America a disservice, some of the most stunning monuments I seen have been in the USA.
		
Click to expand...


Monuments, yes, but not buildings.
Some of our most beautiful buildings have been torn down to make way for monstrosities (like Trump Tower).
Some of our less beautiful but still impressive ones are knocked down by Islamic terrorists.--apparently just for the hell of it.

I thought Big Ben was quite impressive. All of Parliament, actually. (Wish we had one.)
St. Paul's as well.
As for the big Ferris wheel, well...that's fun, anyway.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 13, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Monuments, yes, but not buildings.
Some of our most beautiful buildings have been torn down to make way for monstrosities (like Trump Tower).
Some of our less beautiful but still impressive ones are knocked down by Islamic terrorists.--apparently just for the hell of it.

I thought Big Ben was quite impressive. All of Parliament, actually. (Wish we had one.)
St. Paul's as well.
As for the big Ferris wheel, well...that's fun, anyway.
		
Click to expand...

US Library of Congress
US Capitol
Ryman Auditorium
Grand Central Station

You sure you don't do beautiful buildings...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			US Library of Congress
US Capitol
Ryman Auditorium
Grand Central Station

You sure you don't do beautiful buildings... 

Click to expand...

OK, we do a few.   They're all vulnerable to being torn down for a strip mall (or even a public parking garage) if the latter would be more profitable, unfortunately.
Right now the landmark buildings are safe because Amazon is putting all the shopping malls out of business.
It seems that a new generation of Americans would rather shop on their computers than move their fat asses into the fresh air and mingle with people.


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Monuments, yes, but not buildings.
Some of our most beautiful buildings have been torn down to make way for monstrosities (like Trump Tower).
Some of our less beautiful but still impressive ones are knocked down by Islamic terrorists.--apparently just for the hell of it.

I thought Big Ben was quite impressive. All of Parliament, actually. (Wish we had one.)
St. Paul's as well.
As for the big Ferris wheel, well...that's fun, anyway.
		
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TBH most of londons buildings are moderen thanks to the Great Fire, all of medieval London is long gone with exception of the odd building.
St pauls and  westminster all modern apart from west minster hall and the abbey... oh andsthe Tower of course


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			TBH most of londons buildings are moderen thanks to the Great Fire, all of medieval London is long gone with exception of the odd building.
St pauls and  westminster all modern apart from west minster hall and the abbey... oh andsthe Tower of course
		
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It's entirely likely that when it comes to architecture, the word "modern" might have a somewhat different meaning in our respective countries.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i would have to disagree, scotland s def is expected to be paid for by Scotland yet big infrastructure projets in the Uk are paid for by all of us,... For instance when a bridge for Skye was finally built westminster wouldn't and refused to pay for it so private funding had to be used, why does the UK tax payer have to foot the bill for a massive benifit for London, the richest city it the UK?
		
Click to expand...

It's no different with items built in the South East to your bridge.  Big Ben, Westminster et al bring thousands of tourists from around the World every day all spending money that goes into the coffers that we all benefit from one way or another.
I look forward to the moaning when, if you do get your independance, the Royal Navy relocating ALL it's fleet back to England. We'll be glad of the work and jobs it creates.


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It's no different with items built in the South East to your bridge.  Big Ben, Westminster et al bring thousands of tourists from around the World every day all spending money that goes into the coffers that we all benefit from one way or another.
I look forward to the moaning when, if you do get your independance, the Royal Navy relocating ALL it's fleet back to England. We'll be glad of the work and jobs it creates.

Click to expand...

fill your boots, but little or nothing has been spent on Inf in scotland by westminster no matter who was in power, money raised in london stays there yet when it come s to projects down south they get paid for by everyone... i lived down there long enough, the rest of the Uk is suffering yet london gets richer and richer... not sour grapes... fact


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			fill your boots, but little or nothing has been spent on Inf in scotland by westminster no matter who was in power, money raised in london stays there yet when it come s to projects down south they get paid for by everyone... i lived down there long enough, the rest of the Uk is suffering yet london gets richer and richer... not sour grapes... fact
		
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I have to say this is correct .
The transport in the north is a joke compared to London .


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have to say this is correct .
The transport in the north is a joke compared to London .
		
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Of course London has better public transport, there’s a greater and more densely packed population. But London isn’t the south/south east, and just because the capital has such great public transport go 40 miles out from the seat of power and the story is little different to the rest of the country.


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## KenL (Feb 14, 2020)

Fantastic bus services in and around Edinburgh, plus a tram.
Trains and buses every 15 minutes between Glasgow & Edinburgh.  If only the trains weren't so expensive.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have to say this is correct .
The transport in the north is a joke compared to London .
		
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London is the first major city/town, just about anywhere, to NOT receive a subsidy from central government for its mass transport system...

Perhaps, the 'north' is in need of getting its act together...


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## pauljames87 (Feb 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			London is the first major city/town, just about anywhere, to NOT receive a subsidy from central government for its mass transport system...

Perhaps, the 'north' is in need of getting its act together...
		
Click to expand...

It is mental, it's caused a huge hole in our finances and all the buses etc are funded by the profits from the tube 

For me it's a sign of a transport system run by government run well though ... British rail was a disgrace but private companies take the profits away

Least our profits all go back into the system in upgrades etc


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## Robster59 (Feb 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			London is the first major city/town, just about anywhere, to NOT receive a subsidy from central government for its mass transport system...

Perhaps, the 'north' is in need of getting its act together...
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's the fact that there is a large concentration of people coupled with congestion charges and lots of traffic means that more people use public transport as the only viable option. 
Halton Transport in my old town went bust a couple of weeks ago.  That provided a valuable service to many people and it will leave a big hole for older people and kids who used to take it to school.  It's very sad.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			London is the first major city/town, just about anywhere, to NOT receive a subsidy from central government for its mass transport system...

Perhaps, the 'north' is in need of getting its act together...
		
Click to expand...

It’s hard to get your act together when your budget is cut by 40%.
closing libraries and youth centres but big money tree when it suits.


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## Dibby (Feb 14, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			fill your boots, but little or nothing has been spent on Inf in scotland by westminster no matter who was in power, money raised in london stays there yet when it come s to projects down south they get paid for by everyone... i lived down there long enough, the rest of the Uk is suffering yet london gets richer and richer... not sour grapes... fact
		
Click to expand...

How can it be a fact when London and the SE run at a surplus and the rest of the UK runs at a deficit?
Yes, more gets spent in London, but the extra money from the surplus in these regions isn't hoarded, it is spent on all the other regions of the UK, and then the UK as a whole still borrows more to make up the deficit.

If you think London and the SE should subsidise the other regions even more, that is one thing, but it is not the same as claiming they keep all the money, and take from the other regions when they don't even spend all the money they generate themselves.


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

Dibby said:



			How can it be a fact when London and the SE run at a surplus and the rest of the UK runs at a deficit?
Yes, more gets spent in London, but the extra money from the surplus in these regions isn't hoarded, it is spent on all the other regions of the UK, and then the UK as a whole still borrows more to make up the deficit.

If you think London and the SE should subsidise the other regions even more, that is one thing, but it is not the same as claiming they keep all the money, and take from the other regions when they don't even spend all the money they generate themselves.
		
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so its not fact the SE and London are getting richer yet the rest of the  UK is underfunded?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 14, 2020)

It’s like HS2 starting in London then they are trying to save money as it goes north.
That means to me it will get to Birmingham then it will stop and just upgrade the normal railway.
It’s all about getting people to London not the other way around as claimed.


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## Dibby (Feb 14, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			so its not fact the SE and London are getting richer yet the rest of the  UK is underfunded?
		
Click to expand...

It's not a fact that



patricks148 said:



			but little or nothing has been spent on Inf in scotland by westminster no matter who was in power, money raised in london stays there yet when it come s to projects down south they get paid for by everyone
		
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Clearly the above is impossible given the surplus and deficit situations of the regions mentioned.

You do also realise that London alone is almost twice the population of Scotland as a whole, and the South East is the same, so it's not surprising that more in total is spent in these regions. The facts speak for themselves, England as whole gets less than all the other countries in the UK per head of poulation in gov spending. The South East the same amongst the regions of England. London tops the table amongst the English regions, but is still lower than Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland.

As we like facts, see the table below:


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

Dibby said:



			It's not a fact that



Clearly the above is impossible given the surplus and deficit situations of the regions mentioned.

You do also realise that London alone is almost twice the population of Scotland as a whole, and the South East is the same, so it's not surprising that more in total is spent in these regions. The facts speak for themselves, England as whole gets less than all the other countries in the UK per head of poulation in gov spending. The South East the same amongst the regions of England. London tops the table amongst the English regions, but is still lower than Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland.

As we like facts, see the table below:






Click to expand...

those figures are post devolution, have you got them pre?

 Scotland has indeed beein spending on infra since Devo, it had to as it had been neglected.. . the Skye bridge for instance, Westminster refused to pay for it so it had to be done with private fin and tolls charged until the SNP abolished it, most of the roads and Bridges up here were funded by the EU.. you will say its come from what the UK paid them, but the fact remains withouth that funding we would still be driving on single track roads and  taking 30 mile detour to get across the moray firth.

so are you saying its the rest of the UK where the fault lies and they have had plenty of cash ?


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## chrisd (Feb 14, 2020)

So Scotland is much richer per person than us impoverished pensioners in the deep south east and we still have to pay toll fees if we wish to use the Dartfird crossing to get to the freebie Skye bridge mmmmmm


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## Dibby (Feb 14, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			those figures are post devolution, have you got them pre?

Scotland has indeed beein spending on infra since Devo, it had to as it had been neglected.. . the Skye bridge for instance, Westminster refused to pay for it so it had to be done with private fin and tolls charged until the SNP abolished it, most of the roads and Bridges up here were funded by the EU.. you will say its come from what the UK paid them, but the fact remains withouth that funding we would still be driving on single track roads and  taking 30 mile detour to get across the moray firth.

so are you saying its the rest of the UK where the fault lies and they have had plenty of cash ?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not saying anyone is at fault, just pointing out that it's not true that London and the SE take money from the other regions, or get significantly more spent per head.

Pre devo is moving the goalposts, I only commented on the current situation, but if you want to look at that era feel free to go get the figures, it's not on me to do it for you.


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

Dibby said:



			I'm not saying anyone is at fault, just pointing out that it's not true that London and the SE take money from the other regions, or get significantly more spent per head.

Pre devo is moving the goalposts, I only commented on the current situation, but if you want to look at that era feel free to go get the figures, it's not on me to do it for you.
		
Click to expand...

as you say and your fiures shows london gets more per head than the rest of England and more is spent on London than the whole of Scotland. any money spent by Scotland comes from the SG, where as Londons comes from the rest of the UK until recently now Eng and as your figures show more per head than the rest of Eng


twist it as much as you like, but if BB where anywear else it would not be getting 80M spashed on it.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 14, 2020)

chrisd said:



			So Scotland is much richer per person than us impoverished pensioners in the deep south east and we still have to pay toll fees if we wish to use the Dartfird crossing to get to the freebie Skye bridge mmmmmm
		
Click to expand...

Which was only supposed to be until the cost of the bridge was covered

Then was never withdrawn

Now it could have be kept as £1 each way and made the gov millions

Instead was sold off to the French who upped the charge to £2.50 and take the profits out the country


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			as you say and your fiures shows london gets more per head than the rest of England and more is spent on London than the whole of Scotland. any money spent by Scotland comes from the SG, where as Londons comes from the rest of the UK until recently now Eng and as your figures show more per head than the rest of Eng


twist it as much as you like, but if BB where anywear else it would not be getting 80M spashed on it.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - how about the government funding the rebuilding of Glasgow Art School (maybe it is) - since for Glaswegians and many Scots (and tourists to Scotland) that building is as emblematic a building and important heritage-wise for Glasgow and Scotland as BB is for London - indeed probably more so for many Glaswegians...


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## DRW (Feb 14, 2020)

chrisd said:



			So Scotland is much richer per person than us impoverished pensioners in the deep south east and we still have to pay toll fees if we wish to use the Dartfird crossing to get to the freebie Skye bridge mmmmmm
		
Click to expand...

Don't forgot about the Channel tunnel, Dartford crossing and the Merseyflow bridge you have to pay for

Also don't forget the River Severn crossing that you used to have to pay for until very recently and think they are taking about reintroducing .

Oh the grass is greener on the other side, and who paying for it.


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## DRW (Feb 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I agree it needed building but the costs became ridiculous. As for HS2 there is far less need for that to allow a 20min quicker commute when so many other areas need better transport links in order to reduce car usage
		
Click to expand...

Would like to add, surely that is 20mins each way. So if someone commutes into those areas, it is 40 minutes off on a each trip.

In some ways, the more routes into the city and where the money is, which then allows people to live further afield but get back quicker and makes the commute easier, the better. These people then spend the money elsewhere, isn't a bad thing (not actually sure HS2 is a good thing tho personally ). I am an example of that kind of person, that earns from the South east area and spends it in the Midlands.

Big ben, its a lot of money, but agree it should be done. That money spent will also trickle into guys wages, suppliers wages and so on, so it is not all lost and does help the economy. Could it be spent better elsewhere probably, but it does bring in tourists etc


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			Don't forgot about the Channel tunnel, Dartford crossing and the Merseyflow bridge you have to pay for

Also don't forget the River Severn crossing that you used to have to pay for until very recently and think they are taking about reintroducing .

Oh the grass is greener on the other side, and who paying for it.

Click to expand...

thats down  westminster, if you are having to pay for those you should complain to your MP's same as the Skye residents did, and there wasn't alternative route to get to Skye, you couldn't  drive a few miles and go though a tunnel or bypass it, its an Island and you had to pay to use a ferry the few 100 yards across.

there was a toll on the Forth road brige, one of the first things the SNP did away with when they came in


if they still want to make money out of those tolls thats down to who ever administers them, but no one quesationed if they should be built it was just done and if there were funder by the tax payer the whole UK stupped up


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - how about the government funding the rebuilding of Glasgow Art School (maybe it is) - since for Glaswegians and many Scots (and tourists to Scotland) that building is as emblematic a building and important heritage-wise for Glasgow and Scotland as BB is for London - indeed probably more so for many Glaswegians...
		
Click to expand...

didn't insurance pay for some of it? 

if the Scottish Gov pay for it then its being paid for by them not London or the rest of the UK


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			didn't insurance pay for some of it?

if the Scottish Gov pay for it then its being paid for by them not London or the rest of the UK
		
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Don't know who is paying for it.  But as a building of UK, indeed possibly World, importance maybe the UK government should be paying.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			didn't insurance pay for some of it?

if the Scottish Gov pay for it then its being paid for by them not London or the rest of the UK
		
Click to expand...

Burnt down twice under Muriel Gary's watch, must be uninsurable now.


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't know who is paying for it.  But as a building of UK, indeed possibly World, importance maybe the UK government should be paying.  

Click to expand...

why not post a Thread on that Huge and see what responce you get


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## DRW (Feb 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - how about the government funding the rebuilding of Glasgow Art School (maybe it is) - since for Glaswegians and many Scots (and tourists to Scotland) that building is as emblematic a building and important heritage-wise for Glasgow and Scotland as BB is for London - indeed probably more so for many Glaswegians...
		
Click to expand...

Sadly you are not comparing like with like IMHO. So a pointless comparison.

Big Ben is known the world over. Like the Eiffel Tower.

Glasgow Art School, never heard of it personally, says something to me.


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## DRW (Feb 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't know who is paying for it.  But as a building of UK, indeed possibly World, importance maybe the UK government should be paying.  

Click to expand...

All this UK and Scottish governments paying for this and that, do people understand how they are individually funded and how they were funded before?

To me what is more important is how much is spent per head and Scotland in comparison gets more.


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			Sadly you are not comparing like with like IMHO. So a pointless comparison.

Big Ben is known the world over. Like the Eiffel Tower.

Glasgow Art School, never heard of it personally, says something to me.
		
Click to expand...

Designed by Charles Rennie Mackintosh


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## DRW (Feb 14, 2020)

About time we have a good discussion about clocks, helps time fly and happy to have helped with a clanger of a conversation. 

Never realised talking about clocks takes so much time and don't fancy ringing in my ears, so have a good weekend Ben. Your name was Ben wasn't it


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			All this UK and Scottish governments paying for this and that, do people understand how they are individually funded and how they were funded before?

To me what is more important is how much is spent per head and Scotland in comparison gets more.
		
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what about the rest of the UK?? London gets more per head than the rest of the UK, Scotland is divolved and the money spend comes from them and is higher simply because of money now being spent because of that, its not something Westminster can take credit for


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## Jacko_G (Feb 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			Sadly you are not comparing like with like IMHO. So a pointless comparison.

Big Ben is known the world over. Like the Eiffel Tower.

Glasgow Art School, never heard of it personally, says something to me.
		
Click to expand...

Likewise the Scottish Parliament Building was not a like for like comparison to Big rip off Ben but it didn't stop others throwing it into the mix. Then rely on a mod to try and "reinforce" the view.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 14, 2020)

I don't doubt that the Scottish Government is spending a lot of money in Scotland. I just wonder from where the Scottish Government gets most of its money. Oh, I remember ....

And yes, £80 million for a clock tower does seem a lot of money.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Likewise the Scottish Parliament Building was not a like for like comparison to Big rip off Ben but it didn't stop others throwing it into the mix. Then rely on a mod to try and "reinforce" the view.
		
Click to expand...

 I’m asking you to stop repeating yourself again and again and again ad nausuem.

And if you are going to have a go at Big Ben, then you can’t whine when people mention other buildings that have gone over budget, including the Scottish parliament.

Cheap shots at the mods will only result in the grinding and gnashing of teeth....and it won’t be ours.


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## KenL (Feb 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - how about the government funding the rebuilding of Glasgow Art School (maybe it is) - since for Glaswegians and many Scots (and tourists to Scotland) that building is as emblematic a building and important heritage-wise for Glasgow and Scotland as BB is for London - indeed probably more so for many Glaswegians...
		
Click to expand...

I was brought up in Glasgow.  I've never been to visit the art school, in fact I don't know of anyone who has.  Comparing this building (important it may be in it's own right) with BB is a joke surely?


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m asking you to stop repeating yourself again and again and again ad nausuem.

And if you are going to have a go at Big Ben, then you can’t whine when people mention other buildings that have gone over budget, including the Scottish parliament.

Cheap shots at the mods will only result in the grinding and gnashing of teeth....and it won’t be ours.
		
Click to expand...

He’s just another pant wetter who thinks he’s opinion is correct


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

KenL said:



			I was brought up in Glasgow.  I've never been to visit the art school, in fact I don't know of anyone who has.  Comparing this building (important it may be in it's own right) with BB is a joke surely?
		
Click to expand...

Most of silh’s posts are a joke


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			Sadly you are not comparing like with like IMHO. So a pointless comparison.

Big Ben is known the world over. Like the Eiffel Tower.

Glasgow Art School, never heard of it personally, says something to me.
		
Click to expand...

More like, says something about you.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 14, 2020)

Dando said:



			He’s just another pant wetter who thinks he’s opinion is correct
		
Click to expand...

Difference is I don't think - I know. 

Hope that clears up your misunderstanding of the situation.


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Difference is I don't think - I know.

Hope that clears up your misunderstanding of the situation.
		
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You’re modest as well!
🤡


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 14, 2020)

Just repair the damned clock and tower and be done with it.
If you had the cash to build a gigantic ferris wheel, just for the hell of it, you can save Big Ben.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 14, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Just repair the damned clock and tower and be done with it.
If you had the cash to build a gigantic ferris wheel, just for the hell of it, you can save Big Ben.
		
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Cheaper commissioning Rolex to make you a nice new clock and sell the bell for scrap.


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Cheaper commissioning Rolex to make you a nice new clock and sell the bell for scrap.
		
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🥱🥱🥱😴


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - how about the government funding the rebuilding of Glasgow Art School (maybe it is) - since for Glaswegians and many Scots (and tourists to Scotland) that building is as emblematic a building and important heritage-wise for Glasgow and Scotland as BB is for London - indeed probably more so for many Glaswegians...
		
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How many people outside Glasgow know about the Art School building ? 

If they had a list of historic sites and buildings tourists visited in Scotland do you think it would be in the top ten - I suspect not because most wont have heard of it - as opposed to places like Edinburgh Castle , Sterling Castle 

Do people from around the world travel to visit it ? 

https://www.visitscotland.com/see-do/attractions/historic/

Is it really a comparison to Big Ben


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many people outside Glasgow know about the Art School building ?

If they had a list of historic sites and buildings tourists visited in Scotland do you think it would be in the top ten - I suspect not because most wont have heard of it - as opposed to places like Edinburgh Castle , Sterling Castle

Do people from around the world travel to visit it ?

https://www.visitscotland.com/see-do/attractions/historic/

Is it really a comparison to Big Ben
		
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I’m shocked they haven’t tried to deep fry it yet!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Cheaper commissioning Rolex to make you a nice new clock and sell the bell for scrap.
		
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It’s getting a bit boring now isn’t it - yes what a surprise you don’t agree with spending money on a national historic building - no doubt if it was in Scotland the attitude would be different

I’m surprised it’s taken this long for the bitterness to come to the fore.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 14, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Just repair the damned clock and tower and be done with it.
If you had the cash to build a gigantic ferris wheel, just for the hell of it, you can save Big Ben.
		
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As far as I remember, that was funded by the London tax payers, and then there has been sponsorship of it to help fund it as well. It is also one of the countrys highest earning tourist attractions.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many people outside Glasgow know about the Art School building ?

If they had a list of historic sites and buildings tourists visited in Scotland do you think it would be in the top ten - I suspect not because most wont have heard of it - as opposed to places like Edinburgh Castle , Sterling Castle

Do people from around the world travel to visit it ?

https://www.visitscotland.com/see-do/attractions/historic/

Is it really a comparison to Big Ben
		
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While I wouldn't have made the comparison don't underestimate the tragedy that is the loss of the Glasgow School of Art. In certain circles it's hugely iconic and a work of art that now is lost forever.

However if that repair bill was going to come in at £80 million I'd be saying scrap the blooming place.


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s getting a bit boring now isn’t it - yes what a surprise you don’t agree with spending money on a national historic building - no doubt if it was in Scotland the attitude would be different

I’m surprised it’s taken this long for the bitterness to come to the fore.
		
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Im sure if Ms Sturgeon (sorry fragger) wanted to spend it ,it wouldn’t be an issue

Edited, careful james , don’t push it mate


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 14, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			As far as I remember, that was funded by the London tax payers, and then there has been sponsorship of it to help fund it as well. It is also one of the countrys highest earning tourist attractions.
		
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It was certainly an interesting idea, the Eye.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s getting a bit boring now isn’t it - yes what a surprise you don’t agree with spending money on a national historic building - no doubt if it was in Scotland the attitude would be different

I’m surprised it’s taken this long for the bitterness to come to the fore.
		
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That is one thing I certainly am not. Clearly you don't know my make up at all. Keep banging the drum though.

👍


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			While I wouldn't have made the comparison don't underestimate the tragedy that is the loss of the Glasgow School of Art. In certain circles it's hugely iconic and a work of art that now is lost forever.

However if that repair bill was going to come in at £80 million I'd be saying scrap the blooming place.
		
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It’s clearly not that iconic


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			While I wouldn't have made the comparison don't underestimate the tragedy that is the loss of the Glasgow School of Art. In certain circles it's hugely iconic and a work of art that now is lost forever.

However if that repair bill was going to come in at £80 million I'd be saying scrap the blooming place.
		
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I have no doubt it is an iconic building and the loss will be big for some. But if they could repair it and it brings in funds to help that then do it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			Sadly you are not comparing like with like IMHO. So a pointless comparison.

Big Ben is known the world over. Like the Eiffel Tower.

Glasgow Art School, never heard of it personally, says something to me.
		
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...or about you - you philistine


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## Jacko_G (Feb 14, 2020)

Dando said:



			It’s clearly not that iconic
		
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You fail to grasp basic logic. I never claimed it to be massively "iconic" it is however (was) one of the greatest examples of a certain style or art and was loved and regarded in certain circles who held it in high regard. Therefore those who move in those circles regard it as iconic.

Hope that's clear enough for you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2020)

I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who are keen to support spending £80,000,000 on repairing an old Victorian clock.
Who priced the job, Bodgit and Scarper or a Tory Party funders company.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			While I wouldn't have made the comparison don't underestimate the tragedy that is the loss of the Glasgow School of Art. In certain circles it's hugely iconic and a work of art that now is lost forever.

However if that repair bill was going to come in at £80 million I'd be saying scrap the blooming place.
		
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My point was simply that for Glasgow, the Art School was a massively important building with world importance architecturally as a pinnacle of Art Nouveau architecture - and it formed the centrepiece of a small collection of CRM buildings that many people visiting Glasgow took in as part of their visit. Glasgow is significantly the poorer culturally for it's loss - and that loss - in the scheme of things - might well be considered greater for Glasgow than having an Elizabeth Tower who's big bell didn't bong might be for London.  That's all.


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## Wolf (Feb 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who are keen to support spending £80,000,000 on repairing an old Victorian clock.
Who priced the job, Bodgit and Scarper or a Tory Party funders company.

Click to expand...

You really don't add anything to debates except constant digs at anyone that's not the SNP.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who are keen to support spending £80,000,000 on repairing an old Victorian clock.
Who priced the job, Bodgit and Scarper or a Tory Party funders company.

Click to expand...

I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who find it hard to understand the level of historical important the Bell has. But then I look at those posters and it’s easy to understand why.

I have no doubt that If £80mil was required to repair the same level historic building in Scotland people wouldn’t be complaining from below the border


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			You fail to grasp basic logic. I never claimed it to be massively "iconic" it is however (was) one of the greatest examples of a certain style or art and was loved and regarded in certain circles who held it in high regard. Therefore those who move in those circles regard it as iconic.

Hope that's clear enough for you.
		
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more people have heard of and would recognise Big Ben as being truly iconic!
I hope that clear enough for your tiny mind to comprehend


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who find it hard to understand the level of historical important the Bell has. But then I look at those posters and it’s easy to understand why.

I have no doubt that If £80mil was required to repair the same level historic building in Scotland people wouldn’t be complaining from below the border
		
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Phil,
We’ll never win mate as they’re  bitter and twisted who think their so hard done by


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 14, 2020)

Ok enough now please


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## Dando (Feb 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok enough now please
		
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Spoil sport


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who find it hard to understand the level of historical important the Bell has. But then I look at those posters and it’s easy to understand why.

I have no doubt that If £80mil was required to repair the same level historic building in Scotland people wouldn’t be complaining from below the border
		
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Missing the point, do you think £80,000,0000 is good value for repairing an old Victorian clock. Irrespective of it's 'iconic' status.
BTW1  it is not very historical.
BTW2  Westminster would  never spend that sort of money on a very small single project in Scotland.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Missing the point, do you think £80,000,0000 is good value for repairing an old Victorian clock. Irrespective of it's 'iconic' status.
		
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Yes I do think it’s good value for something that is far more than a “Victorian clock “ - which is of course you trying to demean it 




			BTW1  it is not very historical.
		
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Is it ? Care to explain 

Grade 1 listed building , World Heritage Site




			BTW2  Westminster would  never spend that sort of money on a very small single project in Scotland.
		
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Since when was it a small project ?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Missing the point, do you think £80,000,0000 is good value for repairing an old Victorian clock. Irrespective of it's 'iconic' status.
BTW1  it is not very historical.
BTW2  Westminster would  never spend that sort of money on a very small single project in Scotland.
		
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This has nothing to do with Scotland Soon and even if they were proposing to spend £80 million on Edinburgh Castle I'd still be as disgusted. 

Years of neglect shouldn't be shouldered by the tax payer in my opinion. 

Certain people steered it towards a Scotland England thing which couldn't be further from the original intention of the post. I find it in very poor taste to splash this cash when the Met can't keep people safe on the streets due to budget cuts, when we have children living in abstract poverty and hospital waiting times are at an all time high.

Priorities are all wrong.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 14, 2020)

Dando said:



			Spoil sport
		
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Yup, but then again I work on the basis that if you think I’m wrong and Crawford also thinks I’m wrong, then by definition, most people would think I’m right 👍

I can live with that 😎


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## USER1999 (Feb 14, 2020)

A life without culture would be a dull place. Communist societies have destroyed historical buildings, as has ISIS. It is sad to see historically significant structures disappear due to neglect, or willful vandalism. It is a UNESCO heritage site. We should be ashamed if we cannot sustain it for future generations to enjoy. As a nation we squander money on so much utter rubbish, there should be a bit of leeway for preserving our heritage. It is what made us who we are. It doesn't mean we should neglect the homeless, or the NHS. This should not be the choice.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2020)

Speaking of Icons of British Cities,https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...atue-sports-eu-flag-cone-on-brexit-day/31/01/ this one takes the biscuit and only costs a few quid to replace,


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## Tashyboy (Feb 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who are keen to support spending £80,000,000 on repairing an old Victorian clock.
Who priced the job, Bodgit and Scarper or a Tory Party funders company.

Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it hard to believe that there are people on here who are keen to support spending £80,000,000 on repairing an old Victorian clock.
Who priced the job, Bodgit and Scarper or a Tory Party funders company.

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probably the same people Who built the Scottish government 🤔😁😉


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## Dando (Feb 15, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			probably the same people Who built the Scottish government 🤔😁😉
		
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For crying out loud you’re not allowed to mention that!


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## chrisd (Feb 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			For crying out loud you’re not allowed to mention that!
		
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Just wait for when the urgent repairs to the Parliament building are costed, now that will be expensive!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of Icons of British Cities,https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...atue-sports-eu-flag-cone-on-brexit-day/31/01/ this one takes the biscuit and only costs a few quid to replace,
		
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Is this another tacky stunt by Nichola to pretend the EU loves you?😂

At least it was cheaper than her previous effort....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....otland-europe-brussels-snp-eu-commission/amp/


Pretty pathetic stuff really.


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## KenL (Feb 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of Icons of British Cities,https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...atue-sports-eu-flag-cone-on-brexit-day/31/01/ this one takes the biscuit and only costs a few quid to replace,
		
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Nope, that is an embarrassment, as is the way Donald Dewar's statue has been treated.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2020)

KenL said:



			Nope, that is an embarrassment, as is the way Donald Dewar's statue has been treated.
		
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No more or no less embarrassing I’d say than the traffic cone that has adorned his head since students stuck one there during Glasgow students charities week some 40yrs ago - a not dissimilar socio-political statement.


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## KenL (Feb 15, 2020)

Its traffic cones in general I'm talking about.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			For crying out loud you’re not allowed to mention that!
		
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sorry gonna fraggerfraction meself for 10 mins 🤗


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## Dibby (Feb 15, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			as you say and your fiures shows london gets more per head than the rest of England and more is spent on London than the whole of Scotland. any money spent by Scotland comes from the SG, where as Londons comes from the rest of the UK until recently now Eng and as your figures show more per head than the rest of Eng


twist it as much as you like, but if BB where anywear else it would not be getting 80M spashed on it.
		
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Of course, more is spent on London, it's population is near twice the size of Scotlands! That's why we look at the per head figure, where London gets less than Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. Your argument is akin to claiming shooting 50 for 9 holes is better than shooting 75 for 18 because 50 is less shots than 75. 

Londons money doesn't come from the rest of the UK, it generates more than it spends, that's the surplus I keep mentioning. London and the SouthEast actually provide money that gets used by the rest of the UK including Scotland.

Ignoring whether Scotland as a whole subsidises or receives a subsidy from the rest of the UK, if we just assume that Scotland does, in fact, subsidise the UK it actually would actually be paying for N. Ireland, Wales and all English regions except London and the South East.


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## chrisd (Feb 15, 2020)

Dibby said:



			Of course, more is spent on London, it's population is near twice the size of Scotlands! That's why we look at the per head figure, where London gets less than Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. Your argument is akin to claiming shooting 50 for 9 holes is better than shooting 75 for 18 because 50 is less shots than 75.

Londons money doesn't come from the rest of the UK, it generates more than it spends, that's the surplus I keep mentioning. London and the SouthEast actually provide money that gets used by the rest of the UK including Scotland.

Ignoring whether Scotland as a whole subsidises or receives a subsidy from the rest of the UK, if we just assume that Scotland does, in fact, subsidise the UK it actually would actually be paying for N. Ireland, Wales and all English regions except London and the South East.
		
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Let's not start writing sensible stuff at this stage, they wont like it !


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s hard to get your act together when your budget is cut by 40%.
closing libraries and youth centres but big money tree when it suits.
		
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Puzzled why you seem to believe London's city hall is not having to deal with the same swingeing cuts to its budgets... On top of which it is having to deal with a 100% cut in subsidy, from Westminster, for the public transport system... Even in election year the Mayor is having to apply the maximum rise allowed in local taxes... Something the tory candidate will make the most of whilst glossing over it is a tory governments cuts that are forcing the rise...


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Perhaps it's the fact that there is a large concentration of people coupled with congestion charges and lots of traffic means that more people use public transport as the only viable option.
Halton Transport in my old town went bust a couple of weeks ago.  That provided a valuable service to many people and it will leave a big hole for older people and kids who used to take it to school.  It's very sad.
		
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For me, not enough folk make use of public transport... If the government's policy is encourage more to use public transport [to meet its green policies] then taking away the subsidy is the wrong way to go about it...


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - how about the government funding the rebuilding of Glasgow Art School (maybe it is) - since for Glaswegians and many Scots (and tourists to Scotland) that building is as emblematic a building and important heritage-wise for Glasgow and Scotland as BB is for London - indeed probably more so for many Glaswegians...
		
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How about the insurers meeting their obligations? Believe they did first time round...


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Puzzled why you seem to believe London's city hall is not having to deal with the same swingeing cuts to its budgets... On top of which it is having to deal with a 100% cut in subsidy, from Westminster, for the public transport system... Even in election year the Mayor is having to apply the maximum rise allowed in local taxes... Something the tory candidate will make the most of whilst glossing over it is a tory governments cuts that are forcing the rise...
		
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So a youth club over the road from BB will close while 80 mil is spent on a clock.
Don’t get me wrong the tower is iconic and needs to be maintained ,but 80 mil.!
Whoever did the estimate for repairs should be sacked.
They just love spending other people’s money.


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## Robin Hood (Feb 15, 2020)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...1FJOSfZtldygWxVhzEzjB-OhJYfD2vv6liiHMInYIkZ0Y
Another icon


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			For me, not enough folk make use of public transport... If the government's policy is encourage more to use public transport [to meet its green policies] then taking away the subsidy is the wrong way to go about it...
		
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I agree with this .
But a lot of places don’t have the public transport that major city’s have.
That needs sorting but seems to be forgotten until the next election.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			How about the insurers meeting their obligations? Believe they did first time round...
		
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Yes losing a building once is bad but twice is very careless.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So a youth club over the road from BB will close while 80 mil is spent on a clock.
Don’t get me wrong the tower is iconic and needs to be maintained ,but 80 mil.!
Whoever did the estimate for repairs should be sacked.
They just love spending other people’s money.
		
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Unfortunately for reasons 'regular' folk [like me and you] can't understand there are different budgets to look after people and a separate pot to build stuff [needed or not]... Still puzzles me how £52M was totally wasted on something that never should've been proposed in the first place...


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Cheaper commissioning Rolex to make you a nice new clock and sell the bell for scrap.
		
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Be easier and far more cost effective to do away with the armies of pen pushing box ticking desk jockeys of bureaucracy... We've made a start with Brussels just need to finish the job and deal with all the other layers of self serving bureaucracy...


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## DaveR (Feb 15, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Be easier and far more cost effective to do away with the armies of pen pushing box ticking desk jockeys of bureaucracy... We've made a start with Brussels just need to finish the job and deal with all the other layers of self serving bureaucracy...
		
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Exactly. 

Whilst I agree that Big Ben should be repaired I reckon parts and labour probably account for 10mil and the rest is bureaucracy and back handers.


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