# EU elections



## Tashyboy (May 26, 2019)

Results are due in later today. How's it gonna go. Another topic for us educated to get our teeth into, maybe another thread blocked ðŸ˜‚
Bottom line is though, the elections that we should not of been involved in. Will the results make any differance anyway.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

First Election I have refused to vote in, totally pointless process that will give all UK MEPâ€™s a pocketful of cash for nothing.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			First Election I have refused to vote in, totally pointless process that will give all UK MEPâ€™s a pocketful of cash for nothing.
		
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You mean like Farage has always done?


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## Imurg (May 26, 2019)

Was going to vote and, in the end, just simply couldn't be bothered.
Quite frankly I'm completely disenchanted with UK politics, in fact politics full stop.
They don't seem to give a damn about us so why should I give a damn about them.
We had no election leaflets or people on doorsteps...nothing.
If they want my vote they need to ask for it not expect it.
In real terms, for me, barely anything changes when elections take place so I don't really care anymore.


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## SatchFan (May 26, 2019)

My wife was delighted the election took place. She's currently earning Â£17 per hour taking part in the vote count.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Results are due in later today. How's it gonna go. Another topic for us educated to get our teeth into, maybe *another thread blocked* ðŸ˜‚
Bottom line is though, the elections that we should not of been involved in. Will the results make any differance anyway.
		
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You certainly seem to have history re blocked threads! 

My prediction is that Brexit party will dominate, so no real change from last time - Farage's party was dominant!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2019)

SatchFan said:



			My wife was delighted the election took place. She's currently earning Â£17 per hour taking part in the vote count.
		
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They were asking for people to man polling booths near to me. Â£237 for the day. Easy money, no wonder it costs so much to run an election.

In answer to Tashy, the two main parties will get mullered but no one will take any notice. It's a protest election but a pointless one. The only thing it is likely to do is ensure the Cons elect a hard line leader to appease their voters who have switched to Farage.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			You mean like Farage has always done?
		
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Yes, 100%


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

Overview of the night.
Last EU elections protest vote for UKIP transferred over to Brexit party.
Tories and Labour wiped out
Greens did well in England and Wales but not Scotland.
Tory protest vote supporting Lib Dems
SNP gains in Scotland along with Lib Dems...â€¦.Labour wiped out.


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## jp5 (May 27, 2019)

Appears that The Brexit Party took the UKIP vote and added a little to it, not overly surprising. 

The combined Remain vote outnumbered TBP but split across parties.

The traditional main parties took a kicking. With a General Election likely after the Tory leadership race that could be very interesting.


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## Mudball (May 27, 2019)

Farag win expected w Lib Dem second. 
However the more important bit is if you club this into Pro or Anti Brexit stance then, Anti Brexit wins (Ooops did I say that loud ðŸ˜Ž)


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Appears that The Brexit Party took the UKIP vote and added a little to it, not overly surprising.

The combined Remain vote outnumbered TBP but split across parties.

The traditional main parties took a kicking. With a General Election likely after the Tory leadership race that could be very interesting.
		
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The Brexit Party is obviously Leave, and the LibDems/Greens/SNP obviously Remain. You'll have to explain how you recognised Remain voters amongst the Tories and Labour etc - don't forget those that would vote for a donkey if it had the right coloured rosette on it... There was nothing on the voting slips that said Remain Party.

Personally, I wouldn't say either side won as there's no obvious way to define who preferred what in terms of Remain/Leave.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

IN Scotland the SNP vote was higher than the combined totals of Labour Tories AND Lib Dems.


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## adam6177 (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Brexit Party is obviously Leave, and the LibDems/Greens/SNP obviously Remain. You'll have to explain how you recognised Remain voters amongst the Tories and Labour etc - don't forget those that would vote for a donkey if it had the right coloured rosette on it... There was nothing on the voting slips that said Remain Party.

Personally, I wouldn't say either side won as there's no obvious way to define who preferred what in terms of Remain/Leave.
		
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Well said.  In parties where the MPs cant agree how can anyone know how the voters also think..... if Boris becomes next Tory leader does that mean that the conservative vote was defacto leave?!


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## jp5 (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Brexit Party is obviously Leave, and the LibDems/Greens/SNP obviously Remain. You'll have to explain how you recognised Remain voters amongst the Tories and Labour etc - don't forget those that would vote for a donkey if it had the right coloured rosette on it... There was nothing on the voting slips that said Remain Party.

Personally, I wouldn't say either side won as there's no obvious way to define who preferred what in terms of Remain/Leave.
		
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I don't consider any side to have won, just observing that the hard Brexit parties (TBP, UKIP) didn't receive as many votes as the Remain parties (LibDem, Greens, CUK, SNP). 

Not taking into account Tories / Labour as I don't think anyone knows where either of them stand.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

We lost but we won, sounds familiar.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

No massive shift towards Brexit then, even in an EU election. I find that interesting.
Looks like we will be going down a GE route after a no confidence HoC vote on new unelected PM.


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## Imurg (May 27, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I don't consider any side to have won, just observing that the hard Brexit parties (TBP, UKIP) didn't receive as many votes as the Remain parties (LibDem, Greens, CUK, SNP).

Not taking into account Tories / Labour as I don't think anyone knows where either of them stand.
		
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But you're assuming that everyone who voted LibDem, Green etc voted for them because they want to remain...
Massive assumptions on why people vote the way they do.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

I appreciate DfT knowledge on history and geography is somewhat flawed but I didn't realize that he didn't understand how the PM is elected. Could it be the same way as the SNP leader.


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## jp5 (May 27, 2019)

Imurg said:



			But you're assuming that everyone who voted LibDem, Green etc voted for them because they want to remain...
Massive assumptions on why people vote the way they do.
		
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It's a fair assumption given it was the dominating issue in these EU elections. I made the same assumption that everyone who voted for TBP wants a hard Brexit.


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## adam6177 (May 27, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's a fair assumption given it was the dominating issue in these EU elections. I made the same assumption that everyone who voted for TBP wants a hard Brexit.
		
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Which is where assumptions get you into trouble....even Farage doesn't "want" a hard brexit, but would take it over the bad deal that Theresa May had cobbled together.


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## spongebob59 (May 27, 2019)

Decisive statement from Abacus


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1132918892739874818


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## Dando (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No massive shift towards Brexit then, even in an EU election. I find that interesting.
Looks like we will be going down a GE route after a no confidence HoC vote on new unelected PM.
		
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aren't all PMâ€™s are unelected


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

As someone who is pro EU, and become more so since 2016, I am quite heartened by the results. 

Pro EU Parties (LD, Change, Greens, SNP, Plaid) = 40.4%
Pro Brexit Parties (Brexit and UKIP) = 34.9%

If you were to add Labour votes as Pro EU and Tory votes as Pro Brexit, then we get; 
Pro EU = 54.5%
Pro Brexit = 44%.

Appreciate that is a big If, in terms of Labour votes. But it looks increasingly likely that Labour will be far more vocal on the People's Vote front, and if they were to whip their MPs to support this at Westminster, then I'd reckon there is a reasonable chance of it passing. And at that point, it is game on.


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## IainP (May 27, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's a fair assumption given it was the dominating issue in these EU elections. I made the same assumption that everyone who voted for TBP wants a hard Brexit.
		
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To be fair, some lazy journalists at the beeb were reporting this. Isn't it a bit unfair on the Greens to ignore all their other policies?
What if someone wants to save planet and also wishes to leave the EU, what do they do?

Surely only a 2nd ref would properly answer the question in #10


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## Mudball (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			As someone who is pro EU, and become more so since 2016, I am quite heartened by the results.

Pro EU Parties (LD, Change, Greens, SNP, Plaid) = 40.4%
Pro Brexit Parties (Brexit and UKIP) = 34.9%

*If you were to add Labour votes as Pro EU and Tory votes as Pro Brexit,* then we get;
Pro EU = 54.5%
Pro Brexit = 44%.

Appreciate that is a big If, in terms of Labour votes. But it looks increasingly likely that Labour will be far more vocal on the People's Vote front, and if they were to whip their MPs to support this at Westminster, then I'd reckon there is a reasonable chance of it passing. And at that point, it is game on.
		
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I think you should ignore both Tory and Labour...  both have no clue on what they want. 
But if you keep the others clubbed based on their Pro and Anti stance..  then there is a 6% gap between Stay and Leave ... that is significant given the marginal difference during the referendum.  

I am sure someone is going to come along and say that unlike the Referendum, this vote included EU nationals so is not representational of the referendum..


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

Dando said:



			aren't all PMâ€™s are unelected
		
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Yes I know, I just followed the Brexit voters definitions of EU leaders.


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## jp5 (May 27, 2019)

IainP said:



			To be fair, some lazy journalists at the beeb were reporting this. Isn't it a bit unfair on the Greens to ignore all their other policies?
What if someone wants to save planet and also wishes to leave the EU, what do they do?

Surely only a 2nd ref would properly answer the question in #10
		
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Of course people have their different reasons for voting, but this election was quite clearly made to be a proxy vote on remain vs. no deal by TBP. 

Those who want to the leave the EU but also save the planet will have had to judge their priorities!


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## Tashyboy (May 27, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's a fair assumption given it was the dominating issue in these EU elections. I made the same assumption that everyone who voted for TBP wants a hard Brexit.
		
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Just to add to that, listening to someone last night ( labour MP) and he mentioned enviromental issues. I said to Missis T " I have not heard one person vote where the environment was a massive factor". It came across as a sad excuse for why Labour didn't do anything, and again someone is not listening. Plus am not saying enviromental issues are not important, but to use it as an excuse.


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## IanM (May 27, 2019)

Letâ€™s keep ignoring maths eh?


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## IainP (May 27, 2019)

With so many votes moving from the traditional big two, Change UK must be a tad disappointed you'd think


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## chrisd (May 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I think you should ignore both Tory and Labour...  both have no clue on what they want.
But if you keep the others clubbed based on their Pro and Anti stance..  then there is a 6% gap between Stay and Leave ... that is significant given the marginal difference during the referendum. 

I am sure someone is going to come along and say that unlike the Referendum, this vote included EU nationals so is not representational of the referendum..
		
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Go on then, this vote included EU nationals ..............

No one knows why Labour and Conservative voters voted the way they did and so you cant ignore them or add them to either in or out votes. The majority of people didn't bother to vote at all so you cant categorise them, but a huge number of them would have voted in the referendum in 2014 and no one can categorise their wishes. Its clear that the Brexit Party did really well given only 6 weeks of existence and that the Liberals would have some votes whatever their EU stance as would the Greens in the same way that Labour and Conservatives would too  - so, no one can claim this is definitively a vote to remain or leave, it was a meaningless vote !


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Go on then, this vote included EU nationals ..............

No one knows why Labour and Conservative voters voted the way they did and so you cant ignore them or add them to either in or out votes. The majority of people didn't bother to vote at all so you cant categorise them, but a huge number of them would have voted in the referendum in 2014 and no one can categorise their wishes. Its clear that the Brexit Party did really well given only 6 weeks of existence and that the Liberals would have some votes whatever their EU stance as would the Greens in the same way that Labour and Conservatives would too  - so, no one can claim this is definitively a vote to remain or leave, it was a meaningless vote !
		
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As much as I donâ€™t believe we should of taken part in these elections, I donâ€™t think it was a completely meaningless vote based on turnout.
With Scotland and NI yet to declare it is currently the 2nd highest turnout in the UK since these elections began, that for me at least says more people were bothered/interested in the result.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

What is TBP


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			What is TBP
		
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Typical Tankie!!  The Brexit Party.


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## Tashyboy (May 27, 2019)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, Labour who are on course for 14% of the total vote. Have said through Jeremy Corbyn " we are the party to unite the country" . Didn't know that JC was stepping down.
That aside, there are calls for Labour to massively change its policy on EU, remain,brexit policy. Again do I laugh or cry. What was Labours policy on the EU. I honestly don't know. I can understand Labour changing its " unknown" policy, but is it because it is for the good of the country, or is it once more because Labour/ JC are going for a popular vote winner. Either way, Labour as well as the Torys are up the creek. The Torys are in meltdown, yet Labour cannot make any gains. They are as bad. I cannot believe that Jezza is still in a job.


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## chrisd (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			As much as I donâ€™t believe we should of taken part in these elections, I donâ€™t think it was a completely meaningless vote based on turnout.
With Scotland and NI yet to declare it is currently the 2nd highest turnout in the UK since these elections began, that for me at least says more people were bothered/interested in the result.
		
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At a huge cost to the country we have an election where its (hopefully) unlikely that the candidates will get to take up their seats. I dont personally think that a vote simply to register a protest is worthwhile and the money better being spent elsewhere. Then we have all the "if you add this to that, and take away something else" which apparently proves this or that is ludicrous, much like "experts" did over the referendum results. The only thing I believe that is indisputable is that the people who voted TBP and UKIP are Brexiteers, or possibly true Democrats (who may have voted remain, but believe in the democratic principle) were definitely voting to leave the EU.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Typical Tankie!!  The Brexit Party.
		
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Ta, everywhere I have looked it's  just called Brexit Party. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_Party but we know how wrong wiki can be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			At a huge cost to the country we have an election where its (hopefully) unlikely that the candidates will get to take up their seats. I dont personally think that a vote simply to register a protest is worthwhile and the money better being spent elsewhere. Then we have all the "if you add this to that, and take away something else" which apparently proves this or that is ludicrous, much like "experts" did over the referendum results. The only thing I believe that is indisputable is that the people who voted TBP and UKIP are Brexiteers, or possibly true Democrats (who may have voted remain, but believe in the democratic principle) were definitely voting to leave the EU.
		
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Youâ€™d of got a big like if youâ€™d of stopped after â€œreferendum results.â€


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## chrisd (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™d of got a big like if youâ€™d of stopped after â€œreferendum results.â€ 

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I cant see anyone disputing the last sentence, you wouldn't vote Brexit or UKIP if you were a remainer unless the democratic principle was more important, had I not included that possibility the resident pedant would be all over it ðŸ˜‰


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## MegaSteve (May 27, 2019)

I would suggest any enthusiasm for either the Brexit party or the LibDems transferring to a GE as being fairly limited...


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

All the next PM has to do now is nothing, just run down the clock untill October


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			All the next PM has to do now is nothing, just run down the clock untill October
		
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But Iâ€™d suggest Remain MPâ€™s would try to get Parliament to revoke Art 50.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But Iâ€™d suggest Remain MPâ€™s would try to get Parliament to revoke Art 50.
		
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Always a possibility but that would finish quite a few MPs careers IMO.


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			As someone who is pro EU, and become more so since 2016, I am quite heartened by the results.

Pro EU Parties (LD, Change, Greens, SNP, Plaid) = 40.4%
Pro Brexit Parties (Brexit and UKIP) = 34.9%

If you were to add Labour votes as Pro EU and Tory votes as Pro Brexit, then we get;
Pro EU = 54.5%
Pro Brexit = 44%.

Appreciate that is a big If, in terms of Labour votes. But it looks increasingly likely that Labour will be far more vocal on the People's Vote front, and if they were to whip their MPs to support this at Westminster, then I'd reckon there is a reasonable chance of it passing. And at that point, it is game on.
		
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Good post, well thought out.

But what about the 22% Labour voters that voted Leave in the referendum? Did they all vote Labour on Thursday? Maybe they did, but maybe they're still in favour of Leave. The same could be applied to the % of LibDems that voted Leave in the Referendum. But then there's the % of Tories that are Remainers. 38% of Scots voted Leave...

We can spin it which ever way we chose but its that close to call I wouldn't say either side have had a convincing result.


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			At a huge cost to the country we have an election where its (hopefully) unlikely that the candidates will get to take up their seats. I dont personally think that a vote simply to register a protest is worthwhile and the money better being spent elsewhere. Then we have all the "if you add this to that, and take away something else" which apparently proves this or that is ludicrous, much like "experts" did over the referendum results. The only thing I believe that is indisputable is that the people who voted TBP and UKIP are Brexiteers, or possibly true Democrats (who may have voted remain, but believe in the democratic principle) were definitely voting to leave the EU.
		
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I think the use of the term protest vote, in this instance, by politicians is a cop out. If The Tories and Labour had been doing their job they'd have got the vote. People voted for someone that they think will do the job.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think the use of the term protest vote, in this instance, by politicians is a cop out. If The Tories and Labour had been doing their job they'd have got the vote. *People voted for someone that they think will do the job.*

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Sadly, the main 2 parties could choose to ignore these results and possibly pay for that at the next GE, these people elected to the EU could in theory have a very small if any term of office.

I donâ€™t think it was a protest vote, but I do believe it was a, one issue vote.


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

Amazing the way the remainers are clutching at straws like this is any sort of a victory for them. They were trounced by a party that was created 6 weeks ago. Brexit even won a seat in Scotland!ðŸ˜†

In 1997 the Labour Party won by an absolute landslide, in terms of seats. They won 418 seats with around 13.5 million votes. The Tories and Lib Dems combined vote was just short of 15 million and between them they had 211 seats....anyone on here got the brass neck to say It was close?

Seriously people stop kidding yourselves.


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## Blue in Munich (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Amazing the way the remainers are clutching at straws like this is any sort of a victory for them. They were trounced by a party that was created 6 weeks ago. Brexit even won a seat in Scotland!ðŸ˜†

In 1997 the Labour Party won by an absolute landslide, in terms of seats. They won 418 seats with around 13.5 million votes. The Tories and Lib Dems combined vote was just short of 15 million and between them they had 211 seats....anyone on here got the brass neck to say It was close?

Seriously people stop kidding yourselves.
		
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There's that much spin being put on it here I'm beginning to think Alistair Campbell has about 4 forum ID's.


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## Tashyboy (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Amazing the way the remainers are clutching at straws like this is any sort of a victory for them. They were trounced by a party that was created 6 weeks ago. Brexit even won a seat in Scotland!ðŸ˜†

In 1997 the Labour Party won by an absolute landslide, in terms of seats. They won 418 seats with around 13.5 million votes. The Tories and Lib Dems combined vote was just short of 15 million and between them they had 211 seats....anyone on here got the brass neck to say It was close?

*Seriously people stop kidding yourselves.*

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For me is the correct answer.


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## Tashyboy (May 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			There's that much spin being put on it here I'm beginning to think Alistair Campbell has about 4 forum ID's.
		
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ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Amazing the way the remainers are clutching at straws like this is any sort of a victory for them. They were trounced by a party that was created 6 weeks ago. Brexit even won a seat in Scotland!ðŸ˜†

In 1997 the Labour Party won by an absolute landslide, in terms of seats. They won 418 seats with around 13.5 million votes. The Tories and Lib Dems combined vote was just short of 15 million and between them they had 211 seats....anyone on here got the brass neck to say It was close?

Seriously people stop kidding yourselves.
		
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Rather daft comparing a GE to a EU election and going back 22 years.
Whoâ€™s kidding who?


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rather daft comparing a GE to a EU election and going back 22 years.
Whoâ€™s kidding who?
		
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Here ya go....


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## spongebob59 (May 27, 2019)

what is this guy smoking ?


Len McCluskey, leader of Unite union, says Labour must stay united, and be ready to govern to "transform the country" - despite the party's poor Euro elections result.
He said the results showed a country divided by Brexit, adding: "For that the blame lies firmly with the Tory Party which has handled the Brexit process disastrously causing despair and disillusion among voters, driving many to (Nigel) Farage and his simplistic offer."
Mr McCluskey said Labour has been the only party that sought to unite the nation on Brexit.
"This is the time to hold our nerve because the true prize is the very real possibility of a looming general election," he added.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			what is this guy smoking ?


Len McCluskey, leader of Unite union, says Labour must stay united, and be ready to govern to "transform the country" - despite the party's poor Euro elections result.
He said the results showed a country divided by Brexit, adding: "For that the blame lies firmly with the Tory Party which has handled the Brexit process disastrously causing despair and disillusion among voters, driving many to (Nigel) Farage and his simplistic offer."
Mr McCluskey said Labour has been the only party that sought to unite the nation on Brexit.
"This is the time to hold our nerve because the true prize is the very real possibility of a looming general election," he added.
		
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Is he flip flopping. Massive leaver.


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Good post, well thought out.

But what about the 22% Labour voters that voted Leave in the referendum? Did they all vote Labour on Thursday? Maybe they did, but maybe they're still in favour of Leave. The same could be applied to the % of LibDems that voted Leave in the Referendum. But then there's the % of Tories that are Remainers. 38% of Scots voted Leave...

We can spin it which ever way we chose but its that close to call I wouldn't say either side have had a convincing result.
		
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I think it's safe to assume that the 22% Labour voters who voted Leave probably voted for the Brexit party (if they still believe in Brexit). My guess is that anyone still voting Labour last week (14% nationally) are doing so out of habit and probably are not all that engaged, or choose not to try and be engaged in the European question. 

Agree that it's not a clear victory either way, which is going to make it nearly impossible to move on. But it would be nice if we can at least move on from the whole 'will of the people' mantra. I think if we were to proceed with Brexit from this position it has virtually no chance of success given how resolute the Remain side has, and will become. 

A peoples vote would allow that resoluteness (on both sides) to disperse as given the information now available, even a narrow victory for either side would have far more chance of leading to an agreed position in the HoC. 

Ultimately the original referendum result of 52/48 means that the country said 'we want out, but only a little bit'. Hence it has been a complete failure of government not to find a compromise solution (i.e. SM / CU) as at least a way of delivering on the referendum result. This should have been the obvious solution from the start. My view is that this is due to the Tory party strategy as they wanted to demonstrate to would be UKIPers that they had delivered on the referendum.


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Amazing the way the remainers are clutching at straws like this is any sort of a victory for them. They were trounced by a party that was created 6 weeks ago. Brexit even won a seat in Scotland!ðŸ˜†

In 1997 the Labour Party won by an absolute landslide, in terms of seats. They won 418 seats with around 13.5 million votes. The Tories and Lib Dems combined vote was just short of 15 million and between them they had 211 seats....anyone on here got the brass neck to say It was close?

Seriously people stop kidding yourselves.
		
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Not exactly much analysis here. 

If you split up the Leave v Remain parties, the votes are very close. Certainly depending on how you split the 'loyal' Tory and Labour votes who chose not to vote Brexit or Lib Dem, it's not beyond the realms of any reasonable analysis to say that there is a Pro EU majority. 

Ok, the Brexit Party were clearly the winners and the largest party and on a political campaign level they deserve a lot of credit for harvesting the pro-Leave vote in such a short space of time. But on 31.6% of the votes.... hardly a majority with the pro-EU vote more fractured between LD, Greens, Change, SNP, Plaid. 

Brexit Party got fewer votes than the Lib Dems and Greens combined. 

Anyone who thinks the country is now clearly in favour of either leaving or remaining is very much mistaken.


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## chrisd (May 27, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			what is this guy smoking ?


Len McCluskey, leader of Unite union, says Labour must stay united, and be ready to govern to "transform the country" - despite the party's poor Euro elections result.
He said the results showed a country divided by Brexit, adding: "For that the blame lies firmly with the Tory Party which has handled the Brexit process disastrously causing despair and disillusion among voters, driving many to (Nigel) Farage and his simplistic offer."
Mr McCluskey said Labour has been the only party that sought to unite the nation on Brexit.
"This is the time to hold our nerve because the true prize is the very real possibility of a looming general election," he added.
		
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I'm pretty sure he and his  mates in the Labour Party United the country once before - in poverty! Years of austerity followed after they spent all the money.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

Once again Junker fails to understand the difference between being a European and being in the EU https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48397871


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Not exactly much analysis here.

If you split up the Leave v Remain parties, the votes are very close. Certainly depending on how you split the 'loyal' Tory and Labour votes who chose not to vote Brexit or Lib Dem, it's not beyond the realms of any reasonable analysis to say that there is a Pro EU majority.

Ok, the Brexit Party were clearly the winners and the largest party and on a political campaign level they deserve a lot of credit for harvesting the pro-Leave vote in such a short space of time. But on 31.6% of the votes.... hardly a majority with the pro-EU vote more fractured between LD, Greens, Change, SNP, Plaid.

Brexit Party got fewer votes than the Lib Dems and Greens combined.

*Anyone who thinks the country is now clearly in favour of either leaving or remaining is very much mistaken*.
		
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You saying we are still a deeply divided country over a subject that relatively few people really cared about a few years ago, but is now paralysing the country and its politics, sucking the life and oxygen away from many other much more important matters this nation faces such as public spending on the Police, NHS and schools, economic growth and the environment, with still no parliamentary majority for anything?

Sheesh, when will this nightmare be over?


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I think it's safe to assume that the 22% Labour voters who voted Leave probably voted for the Brexit party (if they still believe in Brexit). My guess is that anyone still voting Labour last week (14% nationally) are doing so out of habit and probably are not all that engaged, or choose not to try and be engaged in the European question.

Agree that it's not a clear victory either way, which is going to make it nearly impossible to move on. But it would be nice if we can at least move on from the whole 'will of the people' mantra. I think if we were to proceed with Brexit from this position it has virtually no chance of success given how resolute the Remain side has, and will become.

A peoples vote would allow that resoluteness (on both sides) to disperse as given the information now available, even a narrow victory for either side would have far more chance of leading to an agreed position in the HoC.

Ultimately the original referendum result of 52/48 means that the country said 'we want out, but only a little bit'. Hence it has been a complete failure of government not to find a compromise solution (i.e. SM / CU) as at least a way of delivering on the referendum result. This should have been the obvious solution from the start. My view is that this is due to the Tory party strategy as they wanted to demonstrate to would be UKIPers that they had delivered on the referendum.
		
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I sort of agree with the idea of having another referendum but would pose the question, what is the benchmark for better informed. If Leave sneaked a win again would we have another 3 years of bitter argument and a repeat of ignorant, uneducated Leavers don't know what they're voting for? TBH, I'm on the fence with having another vote but there are a number of issues that need resolving before I'd fully agree with it.

How would the question on the ballot paper be phrased? Should it be Leave, deal or no deal? Should Remain be on the ballot paper?


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You saying we are still a deeply divided country over a subject that relatively few people really cared about a few years ago, but is now paralysing the country and its politics, sucking the life and oxygen away from many other much more important matters this nation faces such as public spending on the Police, NHS and schools, economic growth and the environment, with still no parliamentary majority for anything?

Sheesh, when will this nightmare be over? 

Click to expand...

It needs a General Election and, hopefully, a big majority for whoever wins. And dare I say a strong and stable govt to grab the nettles. I appreciate that people are fed up but to continue as is, irrespective of a new Tory leader is not the answer.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Amazing the way the remainers are clutching at straws like this is any sort of a victory for them. They were trounced by a party that was created 6 weeks ago. Brexit even won a seat in Scotland!ðŸ˜†

In 1997 the Labour Party won by an absolute landslide, in terms of seats. They won 418 seats with around 13.5 million votes. The Tories and Lib Dems combined vote was just short of 15 million and between them they had 211 seats....anyone on here got the brass neck to say It was close?

Seriously people stop kidding yourselves.
		
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The only thing this whole vote shows is that the whole country is still very much split down the middle - Iâ€™m not sure who â€œtheyâ€ are in your post but the results show that no one bar the two main parties got trounced which shows the general apathy towards them from all sides and that the BP picked up the UKIP vote plus a few others.

But the overriding results shows the country is still split in two and will continue to be


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

BBC putting out a false bar chart of results in Scotland.
SNP had more votes than Labour/Tories/LibDems combined.
Look at their bar chart of reshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48417424ult and see how much they have doctored a massive lead.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC putting out a false bar chart of results in Scotland.
SNP had more votes than Labour/Tories/LibDems combined.
Look at their bar chart of result and see how much they have doctored a massive lead.
		
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Which bar chart exactly ? 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC putting out a false bar chart of results in Scotland.
SNP had more votes than Labour/Tories/LibDems combined.
Look at their bar chart of result and see how much they have doctored a massive lead.
		
Click to expand...

Supply the link


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I sort of agree with the idea of having another referendum but would pose the question, what is the benchmark for better informed. If Leave sneaked a win again would we have another 3 years of bitter argument and a repeat of ignorant, uneducated Leavers don't know what they're voting for? TBH, I'm on the fence with having another vote but there are a number of issues that need resolving before I'd fully agree with it.

How would the question on the ballot paper be phrased? Should it be Leave, deal or no deal? Should Remain be on the ballot paper?
		
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My personal preference would be to put on the ballot paper things that actually exist. 

e.g. the Withdrawal Agreement is something that exists and could be delivered quickly following a public vote. 
Similarly remaining in the EU. 
No deal is something that exists and could be delivered. 

A customs union might be a problem as one persons version of a customs union could look quite different to what the UK might negotiate, or might be able to negotiate. 

I would want to see a referendum on a single transferable vote whereby voters ranked their choices by preference. So there would be no question of the 'Leave vote' being split by having the WA and No Deal in there. Ultimately the least popular option would be eliminated and the 2nd choices re-distributed to ensure a majority for something. 

Problem for Brexiteers is that they wouldn't want to engage in a referendum with these options. They still think there is some magic solution whereby Britain can cherry pick the bits of the EU they want and not have a hard border in Ireland, or in the Irish Sea. Plus of course they have already won their referendum, so have very little to gain by having another vote.


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You saying we are still a deeply divided country over a subject that relatively few people really cared about a few years ago, but is now paralysing the country and its politics, sucking the life and oxygen away from many other much more important matters this nation faces such as public spending on the Police, NHS and schools, economic growth and the environment, with still no parliamentary majority for anything?

Sheesh, when will this nightmare be over? 

Click to expand...

Pretty much. 

I guess what we've learned from referenda over the past 5 years is you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Unless something is defeated emphatically, it will move even higher up the agenda once you've had a positive vote FOR something, that people have never previously had a say on before.


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## ColchesterFC (May 27, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which bar chart exactly ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131

Click to expand...

That is a UK one.
Looks like BBC Scotland have 'noticed' their error and pulled the incorrect Scottish bar chart.
The old one is on Wings for anyone who wishes to see it.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a UK one.
Looks like BBC Scotland have 'noticed' their error and pulled the incorrect Scottish bar chart.
The old one is on Wings for anyone who wishes to see it.
		
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Had a look and canâ€™t see which one you are talking about - do you have a link ?


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a UK one.
Looks like BBC Scotland have 'noticed' their error and pulled the incorrect Scottish bar chart.
The old one is on Wings for anyone who wishes to see it.
		
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Why would a sad blog want to display something that has been corrected and not displayed the corrected version or don't fact suit their agenda. Damn, I forgot, it's Wings, blog of inaccurate information.


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			My personal preference would be to put on the ballot paper things that actually exist.

e.g. the Withdrawal Agreement is something that exists and could be delivered quickly following a public vote.
Similarly remaining in the EU.
No deal is something that exists and could be delivered.

A customs union might be a problem as one persons version of a customs union could look quite different to what the UK might negotiate, or might be able to negotiate.

I would want to see a referendum on a single transferable vote whereby voters ranked their choices by preference. So there would be no question of the 'Leave vote' being split by having the WA and No Deal in there. Ultimately the least popular option would be eliminated and the 2nd choices re-distributed to ensure a majority for something.

Problem for Brexiteers is that they wouldn't want to engage in a referendum with these options. They still think there is some magic solution whereby Britain can cherry pick the bits of the EU they want and not have a hard border in Ireland, or in the Irish Sea. Plus of course they have already won their referendum, so have very little to gain by having another vote.
		
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I think the only legitimate questions is

A) leave the EU with a WTO agreement

B) leave the EU with Mrs Mays negotiated agreement

Anything else would be unacceptable to the majority.


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It needs a General Election and, hopefully, a big majority for whoever wins. And dare I say a strong and stable govt to grab the nettles. I appreciate that people are fed up but to continue as is, irrespective of a new Tory leader is not the answer.
		
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But who is going to get a big majority?  The Tories will chose a Brexity leader and if Farage's party runs then they will split their vote.  Corbyn, despite Conservative incompetence and a hugely unpopular PM, hasn't been able to capitalise on that. Lib Dems still relatively anonymous in a world of hard ideology politics and the greens gaining some momentum but no where near enough to do much.

To me we need PR as the current 1st past the post is not fit for purpose in the new political climate.


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## Tashyboy (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC putting out a false bar chart of results in Scotland.
SNP had more votes than Labour/Tories/LibDems combined.
Look at their bar chart of reshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48417424ult and see how much they have doctored a massive lead.
		
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So let me get this right, we are now to do cartwheels cos the SNP got more votes than Labour, Tories and the Libdems combined, but for convinance  we will ignore the party that got the second highest votes. That being the Brexit party. In essence those four parties got more votes than the SNP. In fact the SNP have three European members the other parties have three. Bottom line it's a dead heat. Yet that's a roaring success. Er no it's not Doon.
Yet the Brexit Party who won by a landslide as the largest party in the UK, well it don't count coz all the others got more. You cannot have it both ways. Yet this seems to be the thought process of the remainers in all elections.


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So let me get this right, we are now to do cartwheels cos the SNP got more votes than Labour, Tories and the Libdems combined, but for convinance  we will ignore the party that got the second highest votes. That being the Brexit party. In essence those four parties got more votes than the SNP. In fact the SNP have three European members the other parties have three. Bottom line it's a dead heat. Yet that's a roaring success. Er no it's not Doon.
Yet the Brexit Party who won by a landslide as the largest party in the UK, well it don't count coz all the others got more. You cannot have it both ways. Yet this seems to be the though process of the remainers in all elections.
		
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BOSH!.... have that doon ðŸ‘ŠðŸ˜


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## Pathetic Shark (May 27, 2019)

There is no way Alastair Campbell could have four fake IDs on this forum.  I mean, do we honestly have four people who talk absolute blllocllks all the time about everything and shout anyone down who doesn't believe their spin?     


OK so he has about 10.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think the only legitimate questions is

A) leave the EU with a WTO agreement

B) leave the EU with Mrs Mays negotiated agreement

Anything else would be unacceptable to the majority.
		
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No more please, how many positive votes to leave the EU do we need, the people voted for it in The People's Vote and Parliament voted for it. Time to stop all this talk.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			BOSH!.... have that doon ðŸ‘ŠðŸ˜
		
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 Oh deary me.
All the other Scottish parties got more votes than the SNP.
The SNP got 38% of all the Scottish votes. I shall let you work it out.


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think the only legitimate questions is

A) leave the EU with a WTO agreement

B) leave the EU with Mrs Mays negotiated agreement

Anything else would be unacceptable to the majority.
		
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You might think that, but from a political point of view, it would basically seal the fate of Brexit as a failure and the remain voters (well over 18 million people when you include EU citizens) would dominate parliamentary elections and likely overturn Brexit. 

At the moment we are at a political impasse. It seems likely that another referendum is going to be required to break the deadlock, and whatever side you are on, it is important that that is seen as fair, open and decisive.


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## robinthehood (May 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			No more please, how many positive votes to leave the EU do we need, the people voted for it in The People's Vote and Parliament voted for it. Time to stop all this talk.
		
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No the opposite is true, the entrenched views of the  leave at all costs and screw the consequences hard-line brexiters, will have to change.

71


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			At the moment we are at a political impasse. It seems likely that another referendum is going to be required to break the deadlock, and whatever side you are on, it is important that that is seen as fair, open and decisive.
		
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Weren't the last ones fair, weren't the votes in Parliament fair? The only problem the country has is that parliament is failing to carry out its duty.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2019)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-delusionists/#more-110493

Best summary so far.
Caution....it's not what you would expect.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No the opposite is true, the entrenched views of the  leave at all costs and screw the consequences hard-line brexiters, will have to change.
		
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Unlike some remainers "We must stay in at all costs" and screw the consequences. Be realistic, you and I don't have a clue what the future holds whether we are in or out of the EU. There has even been talk by those countries in the eastern sector of the EU saying it will be finished in the next 10 years. Nobody knows so don't pretend you do.


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## robinthehood (May 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Unlike some remainers "We must stay in at all costs" and screw the consequences. Be realistic, you and I don't have a clue what the future holds whether we are in or out of the EU. There has even been talk by those countries in the eastern sector of the EU saying it will be finished in the next 10 years. Nobody knows so don't pretend you do.
		
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I dont pretend i do, Im not remain at all costs I'm lets get this sorted and move on, the shit we are in now is really starting to cause problems.

12


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## Tashyboy (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



 Oh deary me.
All the other Scottish parties got more votes than the SNP.
The SNP got 38% of all the Scottish votes. I shall let you work it out.
		
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So the SNP GOT 37.7% of the vote yet have 50% of the seats. Who counted the votes, Jimmy Krankie.ðŸ˜³ðŸ¤”


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



 Oh deary me.
All the other Scottish parties got more votes than the SNP.
The SNP got 38% of all the Scottish votes. I shall let you work it out.
		
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What other Scottish Parties ? I believe there is only one ? The SNP - the others are UK parties plus ones in NI and one in Wales ?! 

And why are you talking about a Scottish vote - this was a UK wide vote


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Weren't the last ones fair, weren't the votes in Parliament fair? The only problem the country has is that parliament is failing to carry out its duty.
		
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I didn't say it was unfair. But in the 2016 referendum, Leave could mean a lot of different things. A confirmatory referendum will give the people a chance to decide when presented with things that could actually happen. 

Parliament is failing to carry out its duty because there are too many conflicting things they want. 

No Deal is simply not an option because it would ruin the economy and breach the Good Friday agreement. 

So if it is so easy, what would you do?


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## ColchesterFC (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I didn't say it was unfair. But in the 2016 referendum, Leave could mean a lot of different things. A confirmatory referendum will give the people a chance to decide when presented with things that could actually happen.

*Parliament is failing to carry out its duty because there are too many conflicting things they want.*

*No Deal is simply not an option because it would ruin the economy* and breach the Good Friday agreement.

So if it is so easy, what would you do?
		
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Re: the first bit in bold - the main conflicting thing that the majority want is to remain so it's no surprise that they aren't carrying out their duty.

Re: the second bit in bold - Do you have any facts or evidence to back up that statement? Not forecasts or predictions but actual real facts? We were told before the referendum that a vote to leave would ruin the economy - emergency budget, hundreds of thousands of job losses etc - but none of it happened, so how can you state as a fact that it will happen in the event of a WTO exit?


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I didn't say it was unfair. But in the 2016 referendum, Leave could mean a lot of different things. A confirmatory referendum will give the people a chance to decide when presented with things that could actually happen.

Parliament is failing to carry out its duty because there are too many conflicting things they want.

No Deal is simply not an option because it would ruin the economy and breach the Good Friday agreement.

So if it is so easy, what would you do?
		
Click to expand...

Leave and all this nonsense of no deal is completely wrong as a number of deals and agreements have already been put in place which were ready for the original date.

I would also like to know how it breeches the Good Friday agreement as there was no mention of borders either hard or soft in my recollection but it was a while ago and memories do fail.


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			You might think that, but from a political point of view, it would basically seal the fate of Brexit as a failure and the remain voters (well over 18 million people when you include EU citizens) would dominate parliamentary elections and likely overturn Brexit.

At the moment we are at a political impasse. It seems likely that another referendum is going to be required to break the deadlock, and whatever side you are on, it is important that that is seen as fair, open and decisive.
		
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Can you not understand the damage it would do to the country to have another referendum?
All faith would be lost in democracy if the establishment ignored the will of the people. I know itâ€™s uncomfortable for you but the result of the 2016 referendum must be carried out.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Can you not understand the damage it would do to the country to have another referendum?
All faith would be lost in democracy if the establishment ignored the will of the people. I know itâ€™s uncomfortable for you but the result of the 2016 referendum must be carried out.
		
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Are other countries damaged when they donâ€™t act out a referendum vote ? 

How do you know exactly what the damage will be ? 

These â€œpredictionâ€ statements about what will happen when such and such happens are just pure guess work 

We could stay in the EU and flourish massively as a nation and millions would be happy , we could leave and bomb as a nation and millions could be mortified and wish the government had overturned the vote or it could be the opposite 

The simple thing is no one knows - itâ€™s all guess work - what ever happens will be into the unknown good or bad


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## adam6177 (May 27, 2019)

Probably about this point this thread should be merged with the other one..... Lets go round and round in circles again.


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are other countries damaged when they donâ€™t act out a referendum vote ?

How do you know exactly what the damage will be ?

These â€œpredictionâ€ statements about what will happen when such and such happens are just pure guess work

We could stay in the EU and flourish massively as a nation and millions would be happy , we could leave and bomb as a nation and millions could be mortified and wish the government had overturned the vote or it could be the opposite

The simple thing is no one knows - itâ€™s all guess work - what ever happens will be into the unknown good or bad
		
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So do you think itâ€™s ok for the establishment to ignore the will of the people? Very dangerous if you ask me. 
Re your other bit I agree 100% no one knows what will happen, so all the scaremongering re leaving is just that.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So do you think itâ€™s ok for the establishment to ignore the will of the people? Very dangerous if you ask me.
Re your other bit I agree 100% no one knows what will happen, so all the scaremongering re leaving is just that.
		
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The establishment have been ignored the will of the people for centuries- the establishment have always only ever looked after their own and certainly never been the least bit bothered about the affects of the â€œpeopleâ€


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The establishment have been ignored the will of the people for centuries*- the establishment have always only ever looked after their own and certainly never been the least bit bothered about the affects of the â€œpeopleâ€
		
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Sorry to be predictable Phil but examples please. When did parliament last ignored a democratic vote?


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The establishment have been ignored the will of the people for centuries- the establishment have always only ever looked after their own and certainly never been the least bit bothered about the affects of the â€œpeopleâ€
		
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Gotta agree with that. The only difference that has happened over the last few years is "The People" are a lot less likely to let the establishment get away with it.


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The establishment have been ignored the will of the people for centuries- the establishment have always only ever looked after their own and certainly never been the least bit bothered about the affects of the â€œpeopleâ€
		
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I'm not sure the establishment has previously ignored what the people want. There's a big difference between not following through all the items on a manifesto and ignoring the largest democratic exercise the UK has ever undertaken.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I didn't say it was unfair. But in the 2016 referendum, Leave could mean a lot of different things. A confirmatory referendum will give the people a chance to decide when presented with things that could actually happen.

Parliament is failing to carry out its duty because there are too many conflicting things they want.

No Deal is simply not an option because it would ruin the economy and breach the Good Friday agreement.

So if it is so easy, what would you do?
		
Click to expand...

I just fail to understand how so many can convince themselves that asking for another referendum is acceptable.  When the government asked the general public to make a decision on whether we stayed or left the EU then any right thinking person would expect the result to be carried out.  Just imagine if the result had been the same majority to stay but politicians did their upmost to reverse the decision, how would Remainers feel about that?   The arguement to support a second referendum that we know so much more now is just another ploy to thwart the democratic decision, all we know now that we didn't then is how conniving and self deceiving  Remainers can be .

You post about a No Deal Brexit ruining the economy as though this is a given, even the BOE suggest we would still have positive growth and people like Mervyn King says we should ignore these unjustifiable stories.   It is just as easy to suggest a future in the EU would be a disaster for our economy.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not sure the establishment has previously ignored what the people want. There's a big difference between not following through all the items on a manifesto and ignoring the largest democratic exercise the UK has ever undertaken.
		
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First thing I donâ€™t really agree with â€œThe Peopleâ€ - itâ€™s the majority of the people who voted - by saying the people it suggests the full population. Itâ€™s possible that the majority could now be in favour of staying in - could that be their â€œwillâ€ 

But imo governments every year ignore what people want and yes that also involves not carrying out promised manifestos 

The â€œestablishmentâ€ imo as a majority are just self serving - could I give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they are doing what they thing is best for the UK even if people donâ€™t agree with it ? Maybe 

But for me right now our establishment is the laughing stock of world politics- they embarrass me and I have no doubt countries are just looking at us and laughing at the complete mess we are in and the determination to make it worse on a daily basis. I canâ€™t predict the future but I fear for it if we keep going the way we are doing. People dream of the UK being this powerhouse empire on its own - I really hope for the sake of us all those dreams are realised.


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## PieMan (May 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			There's that much spin being put on it here I'm beginning to think Alistair Campbell has about 4 forum ID's.
		
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I think he has at least 8.......!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

And for a Man Utd fan AC sure loves Burnley loads!!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			First thing I donâ€™t really agree with â€œThe Peopleâ€ - itâ€™s the majority of the people who voted - by saying the people it suggests the full population. Itâ€™s possible that the majority could now be in favour of staying in - could that be their â€œwillâ€

But imo governments every year ignore what people want and yes that also involves not carrying out promised manifestos

The â€œestablishmentâ€ imo as a majority are just self serving - could I give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they are doing what they thing is best for the UK even if people donâ€™t agree with it ? Maybe

But for me right now our establishment is the laughing stock of world politics- they embarrass me and I have no doubt countries are just looking at us and laughing at the complete mess we are in and the determination to make it worse on a daily basis. I canâ€™t predict the future but I fear for it if we keep going the way we are doing. *People dream of the UK being this powerhouse empire on its own - I really hope for the sake of us all those dreams are realised*.
		
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Do people really dream that, really!  "Powerhouse empire on it's own"


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Re: the first bit in bold - the main conflicting thing that the majority want is to remain so it's no surprise that they aren't carrying out their duty.

Re: the second bit in bold - Do you have any facts or evidence to back up that statement? Not forecasts or predictions but actual real facts? *We were told before the referendum that a vote to leave would ruin the economy *- *emergency budget, hundreds of thousands of job losses etc* - but none of it happened, so how can you state as a fact that it will happen in the event of a WTO exit?
		
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No we were not. At best/worst we were told that Brexiting would cause damage to our economy.  And as we have not Brexited and are still in the EU who knows if that will be true or not.

And as for having facts about what will happen then it is impossible, all you can get is forecasts/estimates/predictions. You then use your intelligence to decide whether to believe them or not, whether the person or organisation making the predictions is credible and an expert in that field or is a chancer with a vested interest in saying what they are..


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## Tashyboy (May 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I just fail to understand how so many can convince themselves that asking for another referendum is acceptable.  When the government asked the general public to make a decision on whether we stayed or left the EU then any right thinking person would expect the result to be carried out.  Just imagine if the result had been the same majority to stay but politicians did their upmost to reverse the decision, how would Remainers feel about that?   The arguement to support a second referendum that we know so much more now is just another ploy to thwart the democratic decision, all we know now that we didn't then is how conniving and self deceiving  Remainers can be .

You post about a No Deal Brexit ruining the economy as though this is a given, even the BOE suggest we would still have positive growth and people like Mervyn King says we should ignore these unjustifiable stories.   It is just as easy to suggest a future in the EU would be a disaster for our economy.
		
Click to expand...

A very well written piece, and the first sentance is something I to cannot understand. Unfortunately as I have said many times before, it is an arguement that many remainers will convieneantly ignore.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			A very well written piece, and the first sentance is something I to cannot understand. Unfortunately as I have said many times before, it is an arguement that many remainers will convieneantly ignore.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with â€œthe Leaversâ€ (and I include myself in that) is our position is not clarified, the Referendum was quite clear, ie Yes or No, but what Leave actually means is now worse than ever.
Is it
Leave, No Deal.
Leave, Bad Deal.
Leave, Any Deal.

If we do have another Referendum (God Forbid) then the only options should be how we leave, there should not be a remain option on it.

Itâ€™s alright having a go at Remainers, but Leavers arenâ€™t exactly singing from the same song sheet.


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## ColchesterFC (May 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			No we were not. At best/worst we were told that Brexiting would cause damage to our economy.  And as we have not Brexited and are still in the EU who knows if that will be true or not.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, we were...........

"Year long recession". "Up to 820000 jobs lost in two years". "A leave vote would cause an immediate and profound economic shock". "House prices hit by 10%". "Households Â£4300 per year worse off".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564

EDIT - "Â£15 billion in tax rises". "Increase in fuel and alcohol duty".

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ole-in-public-finance-if-uk-votes-to-leave-eu


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## spongebob59 (May 27, 2019)

More can kicking


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1132952429274828800


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Had a look and canâ€™t see which one you are talking about - do you have a link ?
		
Click to expand...

Going on numbers, 37.9% will look the same on a bar chart as double the Brexit Bar plus the Green bar. Clearly if you were to double the Brexit bar and add the Green bar it would be well past the SNP bar. 
Also, look at the difference between Brexit Party and Lib Dems... 0.8% difference. 
The difference between Labour and the Greens is only 1%, but looks a much bigger gap back to the Greens. 

Subtle, may be accidental. But not great. Surely you put the numbers into your software / spreadsheet. Press the button and copy / paste your bar chart. Surely would be far more difficult to make a mistake.


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The problem with â€œthe Leaversâ€ (and I include myself in that) is our position is not clarified, the Referendum was quite clear, ie Yes or No, but what Leave actually means is now worse than ever.
Is it
Leave, No Deal.
Leave, Bad Deal.
Leave, Any Deal.

If we do have another Referendum (God Forbid) then the only options should be how we leave, there should not be a remain option on it.

Itâ€™s alright having a go at Remainers, but Leavers arenâ€™t exactly singing from the same song sheet.
		
Click to expand...

You're right, all the different versions of Leave weren't truly defined. And that's something that's been hammered out to Joe Public for a very long time.

But here's a thought; what is Remain? We know all about the status quo and the history of what the EU has 'given' the UK. But what will be the EU when the Lisbon Treaty is fully implemented? What will it be if the EU army comes to fruition, and what will be the changes to the Security and Defence Policy? What will be the new budget, and will the EU force through the ending of the rebate by the upcoming new rules on qualified majority rather than unanimous?

The future after a Leave scenario is very uncertain but I'd be tempted to suggest Remain in the EU, driven by a Macron, won't be the same either.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Going on numbers, 37.9% will look the same on a bar chart as double the Brexit Bar plus the Green bar. Clearly if you were to double the Brexit bar and add the Green bar it would be well past the SNP bar.
Also, look at the difference between Brexit Party and Lib Dems... 0.8% difference.
The difference between Labour and the Greens is only 1%, but looks a much bigger gap back to the Greens.

Subtle, may be accidental. But not great. Surely you put the numbers into your software / spreadsheet. Press the button and copy / paste your bar chart. Surely would be far more difficult to make a mistake.








Click to expand...

Sorry Iâ€™m not sure what the problem is with the chart above ? Are the figures wrong or something ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're right, all the different versions of Leave weren't truly defined. And that's something that's been hammered out to Joe Public for a very long time.

But here's a thought; what is Remain? We know all about the status quo and the history of what the EU has 'given' the UK. But what will be the EU when the Lisbon Treaty is fully implemented? What will it be if the EU army comes to fruition, and what will be the changes to the Security and Defence Policy? What will be the new budget, and will the EU force through the ending of the rebate by the upcoming new rules on qualified majority rather than unanimous?

The future after a Leave scenario is very uncertain but I'd be tempted to suggest Remain in the EU, driven by a Macron, won't be the same either.
		
Click to expand...

No disagreement from me Bri, apart from the obnoxious reply of why should we worry about what â€œRemainâ€ is, we voted out.


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry Iâ€™m not sure what the problem is with the chart above ? Are the figures wrong or something ?
		
Click to expand...

The bars do not accurately represent the numbers. 

As I said, subtle. But doesn't paint the picture the way a bar chart should - as a clear visual representation.


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## Twire (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry Iâ€™m not sure what the problem is with the chart above ? Are the figures wrong or something ?
		
Click to expand...

I think he's saying the length of the coloured bars is not accurate.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			The bars do not accurately represent the numbers.

As I said, subtle. But doesn't paint the picture the way a bar chart should - as a clear visual representation.
		
Click to expand...

Is that all ? Blimey I thought so big issue or crime was committed by the Beeb. Itâ€™s just a chart that shows to me Brexit Party got a lot more than the others which were quite close, I wouldnâ€™t have thought too many would look too much beyond the figures - but then it is Brexit and people are dragging it down and dissecting down to the finite details.


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## spongebob59 (May 27, 2019)

https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...ith-their-new-party-at-the-next-election.html


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I just fail to understand how so many can convince themselves that asking for another referendum is acceptable.  When the government asked the general public to make a decision on whether we stayed or left the EU then any right thinking person would expect the result to be carried out.  Just imagine if the result had been the same majority to stay but politicians did their upmost to reverse the decision, how would Remainers feel about that?   The arguement to support a second referendum that we know so much more now is just another ploy to thwart the democratic decision, all we know now that we didn't then is how conniving and self deceiving  Remainers can be .

You post about a No Deal Brexit ruining the economy as though this is a given, even the BOE suggest we would still have positive growth and people like Mervyn King says we should ignore these unjustifiable stories.   It is just as easy to suggest a future in the EU would be a disaster for our economy.
		
Click to expand...

Ultimately if the Government had found an acceptable solution that their own party could at least vote for - then we wouldn't be in this position. We'd have left in March. And I fully agree, it should have been up to the government to deliver on the referendum and clearly a second referendum should not be required. 

Personally, referendums should happen only when a governing party has sought and won a mandate for one at an election. Clearly that wouldn't be the case here. 

But - we are where are. 

What would be your solution? 

There is only 1 solution that delivers on the referendum result and doesn't cut NI adrift - which is staying in the Single Market - like Norway and Switzerland - neither of whom are EU members. 
No deal means a hard border on the Island of Ireland. 
the Withdrawal Agreement would likely lead to a border in the Irish sea, via the backstop. 

So what is your least worst option?


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that all ? Blimey I thought so big issue or crime was committed by the Beeb. Itâ€™s just a chart that shows to me Brexit Party got a lot more than the others which were quite close, I wouldnâ€™t have thought too many would look too much beyond the figures - but then it is Brexit and people are dragging it down and dissecting down to the finite details.
		
Click to expand...

If it's such a minor issue, why not just use an accurate bar chart? 
As I said, surely much more difficult to generate an incorrect one.


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## Mudball (May 27, 2019)




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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Ultimately if the Government had found an acceptable solution that their own party could at least vote for - then we wouldn't be in this position. We'd have left in March. And I fully agree, it should have been up to the government to deliver on the referendum and clearly a second referendum should not be required.

Personally, referendums should happen only when a governing party has sought and won a mandate for one at an election. Clearly that wouldn't be the case here.

But - we are where are.

What would be your solution?

There is only 1 solution that delivers on the referendum result and doesn't cut NI adrift - which is staying in the Single Market - like Norway and Switzerland - neither of whom are EU members.
No deal means a hard border on the Island of Ireland.
the Withdrawal Agreement would likely lead to a border in the Irish sea, via the backstop.

So what is your least worst option?
		
Click to expand...

The problem IMO is that our negotiators have been hamstrung due to the calls to take No Deal off the table and the weakness of the way May has carried out negotiations. This is aggravated by MPs working against the democratic vote.

We should have insisted that the withdraw agreement and future trade arrangements were negotiated together and should not be seperated.  If we had already agreed a Free Trade Arrangement then the problems with the Irish border would be negated.   We also have the leverage of how and when we pay the withdraw settlement.  I dont believe there would ever be the No Deal that so many fear as it's  in all parties interest to  maintain trade, we keep hearing scare stories suggesting that all trade would cease and we would never see a lettuce or toilet roll again, it's all project fear and rather condescending propaganda.


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## larmen (May 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



View attachment 27401

Click to expand...

Therefore the clear mandate for a no deal Brexit is only 32%, just under that even. You canâ€™t add the 3% from UKIP to it, and the 9% from the conservatives, who all ran on a deal Brexit, either.
Thatâ€™s well down from the 52% we are always told want a No Deal Brexit for the last 3 years now.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 28, 2019)

I think the last couple of pages have identified two of Alastair Campbell's fake IDs.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			people are dragging it down and dissecting down to the finite details.
		
Click to expand...

My irony meter just exploded

Again ðŸ¤”


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

larmen said:



			Therefore the clear mandate for a no deal Brexit is only 32%, just under that even. You canâ€™t add the 3% from UKIP to it, and the 9% from the conservatives, who all ran on a deal Brexit, either.
Thatâ€™s well down from the 52% we are always told want a No Deal Brexit for the last 3 years now.
		
Click to expand...

Why canâ€™t you? Whatâ€™s not to say that a number of ardent Tory and Labour voters want No Deal but would never vote for anyone apart from the party theyâ€™ve voted for all their lives?

You may be right but unless you have a crystal ball you are guilty of interpreting the figures based on assumptions.


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## larmen (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Why canâ€™t you? Whatâ€™s not to say that a number of ardent Tory and Labour voters want No Deal but would never vote for anyone apart from the party theyâ€™ve voted for all their lives?

You may be right but unless you have a crystal ball you are guilty of interpreting the figures based on assumptions.
		
Click to expand...

Because Labour â€˜campaignedâ€™ on no Brexit without deal platform. They are out.

Conservatives you might as well count. While they all promoted an easy deal during the referendum the ones speaking since Sunday celebrated Farage like they won the election themselves.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

larmen said:



			Because Labour â€˜campaignedâ€™ on no Brexit without deal platform. They are out.

Conservatives you might as well count. While they all promoted an easy deal during the referendum the ones speaking since Sunday celebrated Farage like they won the election themselves.
		
Click to expand...

First you said you canâ€™t count the Tories, and now youâ€™re saying you can.... you are guessing - making assumptions. As I said in the previous post, you donâ€™t know for certain.


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## larmen (May 28, 2019)

Nobody does, do they? Makes the mandate very clear, doesnâ€™t it?


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			First you said you canâ€™t count the Tories, and now youâ€™re saying you can.... you are guessing - making assumptions. As I said in the previous post, you donâ€™t know for certain.
		
Click to expand...

Add to that - all long standing political parties have a number of voters who'd never change allegiance no matter what they stood for "my dad voted  xxxxxxx all his life and so will i" types. So Liberals, Greens, labour and Conservatives will have all picked up votes that will have had no bearing on policies


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that all ? Blimey I thought so big issue or crime was committed by the Beeb. Itâ€™s just a chart that shows to me Brexit Party got a lot more than the others which were quite close, I wouldnâ€™t have thought too many would look too much beyond the figures - but then it is Brexit and people are dragging it down and dissecting down to the finite details.
		
Click to expand...

If you say 'Brexit got a lot more than the other parties' on that chart you need to visit Specsavers 
They were miles behind the SNP.
Brexit were also only 0.8% ahead of the Lib Dems......but looks like a lot more on the bar chart.

Sky news last night did not count the SNP/Plaid/Irish votes when compiling their Anti Brexit charts.
Gave a very wooly reason for not doing so.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Add to that - all long standing political parties have a number of voters who'd never change allegiance no matter what they stood for "my dad voted  xxxxxxx all his life and so will i" types. So Liberals, Greens, labour and Conservatives will have all picked up votes that will have had no bearing on policies
		
Click to expand...

Which again highlights the fact no one knows for certain exactly what the split/mandate is.

But if we're going to play games with numbers, here's a thought. There were 70 seats on offer, excluding NI as I can't find the numbers for NI. Brexit Party won 29 seats. The Tories, who have Brexit on their manifesto, picked up 4 seats, and Labour, who also have Brexit in their manifesto, picked up 10 seats. That means 43 seats out of 70 voted Brexit. A solid mandate for Leave, almost 62%. Whether its Leave with No Deal or a Deal, its Leave.

Thats how easy it is to manipulate the numbers to support an argument.


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## PieMan (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Which again highlights the fact no one knows for certain exactly what the split/mandate is.

But if we're going to play games with numbers, here's a thought. There were 70 seats on offer, excluding NI as I can't find the numbers for NI. Brexit Party won 29 seats. The Tories, who have Brexit on their manifesto, picked up 4 seats, and Labour, who also have Brexit in their manifesto, picked up 10 seats. That means 43 seats out of 70 voted Brexit. A solid mandate for Leave, almost 62%. Whether its Leave with No Deal or a Deal, its Leave.

Thats how easy it is to manipulate the numbers to support an argument.
		
Click to expand...

You're right Brian.

The only important stats IMO are seats won and % share of the vote, and the Brexit Party trounced everyone on those.


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## Crazyface (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Why canâ€™t you? Whatâ€™s not to say that a number of ardent Tory and Labour voters want No Deal but would never vote for anyone apart from the party theyâ€™ve voted for all their lives?

You may be right but unless you have a crystal ball you are guilty of interpreting the figures based on assumptions.
		
Click to expand...

No all the voters who voted for LD/LAB/CONS were Remainers. Some would be Leavers but due to years of crazy loyalty they vote with the party they have supported all their lives. So it's not as cut and dried as the EVIL BBC and others are making out. I now think we should have a public vote with ONLY two choices, (because this is all that's on offer)

1. No deal
2. Mrs Mays deal (coz this is all the EU are offering).

And lets see how this goes.


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## Crazyface (May 28, 2019)

PieMan said:



			You're right Brian.

The only important stats IMO are seats won and % share of the vote, and the Brexit Party trounced everyone on those.
		
Click to expand...

And if a GE was called now, they'd win by a landslide!
The Peterborough election result will be interesting.


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## User62651 (May 28, 2019)

Lots of commentary and conjecture.

From a low turnout again -

Brexit Party under Farage did well but only won a few more MEPs than UKIP did under Farage last time out. It's still a one man band. A party with no policies. At 2015 GE UKIP under Farage got zero MPs despite getting 24 MEPs the year before. Success in one doesn't lead directly to success in another.

The remain or leave balance can't be extrapolated properly from a low turnout and because Conservatives and Labour were not for one or the other - there are remain and leavers aplenty in both.

Leave vote is united behind Farage presently, remain vote is split across more parties. If the Euro election results were for a GE The Brexit Party could claim the win, but it's not a GE. Similarly if it was an in/out referendum last Thursday then remain are ahead of leave and could claim the win based on vote share. Again it's wasn't a referendum though.

Can be spun any way and is being. All it actually tells us is the number of MEPs each party has.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			And if a GE was called now, they'd win by a landslide!
The Peterborough election result will be interesting.
		
Click to expand...

Would they? During the last election UKIP ( which are in essence BP ) won zero seats - I suspect if there was a GE right now BP will win zero seats - they have no manifesto for running the country. 

If a GE did happen then I expect it would be nothing different - very close between the two main parties but Lib Demâ€™s have a resurgence and maybe once again forming an alliance with someone 

Labour have Corbyn so that makes them imo unelectable once again


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would they? During the last election UKIP ( which are in essence BP ) won zero seats - I suspect if there was a GE right now BP will win zero seats - they have no manifesto for running the country.

If a GE did happen then I expect it would be nothing different - very close between the two main parties but Lib Demâ€™s have a resurgence and maybe once again forming an alliance with someone

Labour have Corbyn so that makes them imo unelectable once again
		
Click to expand...

On your last point Phil, there's a danger of walking blindly into a nightmare there. Corbyn rallied the electorate in the last GE, starting from a poor position, and almost won. I agree it was a poor showing from them last week but a GE is mainly about domestic policy and Labour are promising the earth to everyone that is willing to listen.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			And if a GE was called now, they'd win by a landslide!
The Peterborough election result will be interesting.
		
Click to expand...

Totally disagree, the Brexit vote is not strong enough to win many seats, less than 5 maximum IMO.
Brexit = UKIP  a protest vote, simple as that, they just changed their name.
Can you honestly see the British public voting in Farage as PM.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2019)

Before people get too excited about analysing the results, as an example, in Northumberland the voter turn out on Thursday was 34%. In the EU referendum the turn out was 74.4%. Huge difference in turnout, massive. 

When you hear why people didn't vote this time they largely say that it was worthless. The MEP's will only sit for 4-5 months so what was the point. Hard to argue against that viewpoint. 

The vote on Thursday was a free hit for voters, a no consequence vote. A GE or another referendum is a completely different matter.


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## spongebob59 (May 28, 2019)

The BP would be hard pressed to come up with a worse manifesto than the Tories did last time !
I'm sure once Corbyns plans are properly costed they'll be a busted flush.

If the LD's can select a charismatic leaders who knows , they might sneak up on the rails ðŸ˜²


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			If the LD's can select a charismatic leaders who knows , they might sneak up on the rails ðŸ˜²
		
Click to expand...

The LD's have 11 MP's right now. One is Vince Cable, the other Tim Farron, the last leader. That leaves them with a choice of 9 people to be that charismatic leader. There may be one out of that 9 but that is a tough ask from such a small pool of people.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 28, 2019)

Aren't most BP heirachy mainly disaffected right wing members of the Tory party?
I wouldn't call Farage or Widdecombe "socially caring" ex conservatives.


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## MegaSteve (May 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The BP would be hard pressed to come up with a worse manifesto than the Tories did last time !
I'm sure once Corbyns plans are properly costed they'll be a busted flush.

If the LD's can select a charismatic leaders who knows , they might sneak up on the rails ðŸ˜²
		
Click to expand...

Cleggy was as 'charismatic' as the LibDems can deliver...
And, what a tool he turned out to be...


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## spongebob59 (May 28, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The LD's have 11 MP's right now. One is Vince Cable, the other Tim Farron, the last leader. That leaves them with a choice of 9 people to be that charismatic leader. There may be one out of that 9 but that is a tough ask from such a small pool of people.
		
Click to expand...

I predict that the new mob, change , will end up merging,  no where else to go.
Brings Chuka  and a few others into the mix, Sourface can be discounted though ðŸ˜†


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## jp5 (May 28, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Aren't most BP heirachy mainly disaffected right wing members of the Tory party?
I wouldn't call Farage or Widdecombe "socially caring" ex conservatives.
		
Click to expand...

Will be interesting to see their GE manifesto certainly!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2019)

Are the Brexit party not just a one issue protest group? Are they trying to be a UKIP and widen their horizons?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The LD's have 11 MP's right now. One is Vince Cable, the other Tim Farron, the last leader. That leaves them with a choice of 9 people to be that charismatic leader. There may be one out of that 9 but that is a tough ask from such a small pool of people.
		
Click to expand...

Jo Swinson will be the next leader, she will do well.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are the Brexit party not just a one issue protest group? Are they trying to be a UKIP and widen their horizons?
		
Click to expand...

Surely once Brexit is achieved, under what ever guise, The Brexit Party will close, unless of course Farage decides to ignore democracy and start up yet another party.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Lots of commentary and conjecture.

*From a low turnout again* -

Brexit Party under Farage did well but only won a few more MEPs than UKIP did under Farage last time out. It's still a one man band. A party with no policies. At 2015 GE UKIP under Farage got zero MPs despite getting 24 MEPs the year before. Success in one doesn't lead directly to success in another.

The remain or leave balance can't be extrapolated properly from a low turnout and because Conservatives and Labour were not for one or the other - there are remain and leavers aplenty in both.

Leave vote is united behind Farage presently, remain vote is split across more parties. If the Euro election results were for a GE The Brexit Party could claim the win, but it's not a GE. Similarly if it was an in/out referendum last Thursday then remain are ahead of leave and could claim the win based on vote share. Again it's wasn't a referendum though.

Can be spun any way and is being. All it actually tells us is the number of MEPs each party has.
		
Click to expand...

On the bold point alone, it was the 2nd highest turnout in EU Election history, rather than dismissing them or comparing them to other Domestic Election turnouts, all parties should look at why more bothered to get involved, especially when we keep hearing the public are fed up, if the trend was to continue in a GE the parties ignoring the reasons could suffer more.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely once Brexit is achieved, under what ever guise, The Brexit Party will close, unless of course Farage decides to ignore democracy and start up yet another party.
		
Click to expand...

That is my thinking as well. There is no point to it once we leave the EU. If he keeps it going then surely it will start to disintegrate as UKIP have done.


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## Jamesbrown (May 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Totally disagree, the Brexit vote is not strong enough to win many seats, less than 5 maximum IMO.
Brexit = UKIP  a protest vote, simple as that, they just changed their name.
Can you honestly see the British public voting in Farage as PM.
		
Click to expand...

Always voted Tory in general elections.
If the choice was given to me now,  Iâ€™d vote for BP out of protest.
Iâ€™m sure many others would after not leaving on March 29th. 
Most leave voters donâ€™t have a party that supports their choice other than Farageâ€™s ltd company. 

Things are different now. The will of the majority hasnâ€™t been exercised when it was supposed to.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely once Brexit is achieved, under what ever guise, The Brexit Party will close, unless of course Farage decides to ignore democracy and start up yet another party.
		
Click to expand...

He kind of inferred on some podcast I was listening to that he would only really accept a hard Brexit as the 'true Brexit.  And I suspect that if we do manage to negotiate a deal that includes things like backstops that will not be enough for him and he will carry on.  Although it is debatable to me how much enthusiasm there would be for his party once we have Brexited in some form or another.


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## MegaSteve (May 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely once Brexit is achieved, under what ever guise, The Brexit Party will close, unless of course Farage decides to ignore democracy and start up yet another party.
		
Click to expand...

Forming or being seen as the leader of a niche political party can be quite financially lucrative... 
Every milkshake thrown will see his income rise substantially...


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## spongebob59 (May 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I think the last couple of pages have identified two of Alastair Campbell's fake IDs.
		
Click to expand...

He's been booted out after voting LD.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			He's been booted out after voting LD.
		
Click to expand...

So they expel him for the heinous crime of voting Lib Dem after years of service to Labour, yet seem to drag their heels a lot when it comes to expelling people for very unsavoury comments and antisemitism?

I think Labour and the Conservatives, where it seems every single cabinet minister is going for the leaders job and every one will shortly begin a monumental act of back stabbing, are in the final stages of implosion. Brexit is the gift that just keep giving.


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## spongebob59 (May 28, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1133336893536505857


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## IanM (May 28, 2019)

All this just goes to show that Federalism by stealth was hugely unpopular...... Cameron assumed the media had done it's job.  He was wrong.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2019)

And apparently this is fine. Wonder which way she voted?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2019)

A chance for Corbyn to rid himself of another opponent, even though he is not an MP. Foolish.


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## User62651 (May 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And apparently this is fine. Wonder which way she voted?  
	View attachment 27405

Click to expand...

Knew he'd taken inspiration from somewhere -


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## jp5 (May 28, 2019)

Say what you want about Brexit but the impending implosion of centuries worth of political history is quite something to watch.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Say what you want about Brexit but the impending implosion of centuries worth of political history is quite something to watch.
		
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True.  You'd like to think that out of this omnishables will emerge a new way of doing politics that is fit for purpose.  It takes into account how society now operates and how people want to feel they are represented, not just discarded as being irrelevant in a first past the post system where many constituencies never really change. Where we face the big challenges such as the environment, automation of many traditional jobs and the rise of new economic powerhouses.  

Only joking, it will likely lead to more and more power crazed ideologues, creating fear where none should really exist, appealing to everyone's bassist instincts and herd mentalities and promising unachievable outcomes as long as you vote for them.


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## IanM (May 28, 2019)

No, it's just the reaction to 40 years of political arrogance......


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## Grant85 (May 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The problem IMO is that our negotiators have been hamstrung due to the calls to take No Deal off the table and the weakness of the way May has carried out negotiations. This is aggravated by MPs working against the democratic vote.

We should have insisted that the withdraw agreement and future trade arrangements were negotiated together and should not be seperated.  If we had already agreed a Free Trade Arrangement then the problems with the Irish border would be negated.   We also have the leverage of how and when we pay the withdraw settlement.  I dont believe there would ever be the No Deal that so many fear as it's  in all parties interest to  maintain trade, we keep hearing scare stories suggesting that all trade would cease and we would never see a lettuce or toilet roll again, it's all project fear and rather condescending propaganda.
		
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The problem is that MPs aren't working against the democratic vote. There is a majority (certainly in terms of Con + DUP with a few Labour) who are happy for an orderly Brexit to take place. MPs have not voted to revoke A50 or hold a referendum thus far. It's just that Brexit can come in 100 different ways and there is no majority for any reasonable / workable solution. 

I do think the UK Gov have been extremely poor negotiators. I'm not sure of the circumstances of how the rules / timetable / format was all set out, but obviously the likes of May, Davis etc. agreed to it. Probably they have foolishly believed they had a stronger hand to play and thought the EU would be far more desperate to do whatever it took to do a free trade deal. But ultimately they have come up against a well oiled machine, backed by 27 countries who support their other member states, especially Ireland, with an extremely united front.


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## Fade and Die (May 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			True.  You'd like to think that out of this omnishables will emerge a new way of doing politics that is fit for purpose.  It* takes into account how society now operates and how people want to feel they are represented, not just discarded as being irrelevant *in a first past the post system where many constituencies never really change. Where we face the big challenges such as the environment, automation of many traditional jobs and the rise of new economic powerhouses. 

Only joking, it will likely lead to more and more power crazed ideologues, creating fear where none should really exist, appealing to everyone's bassist instincts and herd mentalities and promising unachievable outcomes as long as you vote for them.
		
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The whole electoral system has a lot to answer for imo. If those that voted UKIP had a voice in parliament their collective vote total deserved there would have been no need for Cameron, or anyone else, to promise a bloody referendum. I am quite sure, because of the 2 party system, many people who would have added their vote to the UKIP total felt it was a wasted vote and demurred to one of the others. If we had a form of PR those who voted UKIP would have been represented proportionately to the strength of feeling at the time. Who knows, they may even have been invited to help form a coalition. Cameron, wrongly imo, assumed most UKIP votes were from ex Tory voters and the rest, as they say, is history.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The whole electoral system has a lot to answer for imo. If those that voted UKIP had a voice in parliament their collective vote total deserved there would have been no need for Cameron, or anyone else, to promise a bloody referendum. I am quite sure, because of the 2 party system, many people who would have added their vote to the UKIP total felt it was a wasted vote and demurred to one of the others. If we had a form of PR those who voted UKIP would have been represented proportionately to the strength of feeling at the time. Who knows, they may even have been invited to help form a coalition. Cameron, wrongly imo, assumed most UKIP votes were from ex Tory voters and the rest, as they say, is history.
		
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Totally agree, 1st past he post is no longer fit for purpose IMHO.  Leads to a sense of not being listened to.


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## drdel (May 28, 2019)

I any form of voting there will be losers. Unfortunately in todays society with its distorted sense of entitlement 'losers' do not accept the outcome.

IMO we are one step away from anarchy; and that's definitely more worrying than 'political' parties squabbling.


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## larmen (May 28, 2019)

About 15 years ago there was a referendum about the system. I canâ€™t really remember who was for and who was against it in since of campaigning.
People voted against it because it wasnâ€™t well understood. Maybe it is time to give it another go.


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## ColchesterFC (May 28, 2019)

larmen said:



			About 15 years ago there was a referendum about the system. I canâ€™t really remember who was for and who was against it in since of campaigning.
People voted against it because it wasnâ€™t well understood. Maybe it is time to give it another go.
		
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Do you mean we should hold a 2nd referendum in case people have changed their minds or they didn't understand what they were voting for the first time?


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

larmen said:



			About 15 years ago there was a referendum about the system. I canâ€™t really remember who was for and who was against it in since of campaigning.
People voted against it because it wasnâ€™t well understood. Maybe it is time to give it another go.
		
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It was 2011. It was a version of Alternative Vote, not proportional Representation. The Tories whipped up the media and it was lost. When Labour were in power just before then they also blocked it. Whichever party that is in power doesn't want it, making it incredibly hard to get it through. It only got in last time because Cameron had to agree it with the LibDems to get them into bed in a coalition.

The UK needs it but no party in power will push it.


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## drdel (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It was 2011. It was a version of Alternative Vote, not proportional Representation. The Tories whipped up the media and it was lost. When Labour were in power just before then they also blocked it. Whichever party that is in power doesn't want it, making it incredibly hard to get it through. It only got in last time because Cameron had to agree it with the LibDems to get them into bed in a coalition.

The UK needs it but no party in power will push it.
		
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I'm sure Sturgeon would be over the moon if proportional representation was ever adopted by the UK.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 28, 2019)

I'd be happier if Sturgeon was sent to the Moon.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm sure Sturgeon would be over the moon if proportional representation was ever adopted by the UK. 

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Is PR a bad thing? It shouldn't be about which politicians like it, it should be about whats best for the UK.


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## larmen (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The UK needs it but no party in power will push it.
		
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The reason the UK and the US are stuck in outdated systems is because you havenâ€™t lost a war ;-)

Look at the fine and fairly modern constitution you guys made the Germans write.
The EU is even newer and has a better system as well.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

larmen said:



			The reason the UK and the US are stuck in outdated systems is because you havenâ€™t lost a war ;-)

Look at the fine and fairly modern constitution you guys made the Germans write.
The EU is even newer and has a better system as well.
		
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We didn't make the Germans write a new constitution. The US, as part of the Marshall Plan for handing over $1444bn for rebuilding insisted on it.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is PR a bad thing? It shouldn't be about which politicians like it, it should be about whats best for the UK.
		
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You can't go posting sensible stuff like that


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## larmen (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			We didn't make the Germans write a new constitution. The US, as part of the Marshall Plan for handing over $1444bn for rebuilding insisted on it.
		
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Well, allies are allies, and they spoke the same language anyway. But Germany lost a war and ended up with a more modern constitution and electoral system.


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## drdel (May 28, 2019)

larmen said:



			Well, allies are allies, and they spoke the same language anyway. But Germany lost a war and ended up with a more modern constitution and electoral system.
		
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They were given a bunch of money to modernise


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2019)

They spent it wisely though, didn't fritter it away. Does the record of the UK suggest we would have done the same?


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## Mudball (May 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			They were given a bunch of money to modernise
		
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Did the Brits loot/plunder/take i/get a gift of immense wealth from all around the colonies?  Where has all that money gone?  Was it part of the gold that Brown sold?


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## Tashyboy (May 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'd be happier if Sturgeon was sent to the Moon.
		
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If it's orbiting this planet it's to close.

Back to the proportional representation idea. I was strongly for it. The idea of a percentage of votes equals a percentage of MPs. Yup I was for it. But the last three years, if anything has been proven. Parties cannot and will not compromise. How can you compromise with Theresa May. Corbyn, what is going on in his head. How can you compromise or negotiate with someone who changes his mind from day to day. 
What narks me is that the people have spoken, they have given the HOP a mandate to leave, but they can ot make a decision ( insert own reasons why here.                                         ). Yet there is a growing clamour to bounce it back to Joe public for a second referendum. If they cannot of will not catty out the will of the people, you are not good enough. Quit.
Me I go along with the anarchy bit, people are getting frustrated and angry.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

larmen said:



			Well, allies are allies, and they spoke the same language anyway. But Germany lost a war and ended up with a more modern constitution and electoral system.
		
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Maybe you need to read up on a bit of history. The Marshall Plan was imposed on all of Europe. Each country was offered billions by the US, and each country had to sign up to a set of criteria. The U.K. actually argued for greater flexibility for Germany, fearing a repeat of too many restrictions on Germany like after World War 1.

Apology accepted.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			If it's orbiting this planet it's to close.

Back to the proportional representation idea. I was strongly for it. The idea of a percentage of votes equals a percentage of MPs. Yup I was for it. But the last three years, if anything has been proven. *Parties cannot and will not compromise. How can you compromise with Theresa May. Corbyn, what is going on in his head. How can you compromise or negotiate with someone who changes his mind from day to day.*
What narks me is that the people have spoken, they have given the HOP a mandate to leave, but they can ot make a decision ( insert own reasons why here.                                         ). Yet there is a growing clamour to bounce it back to Joe public for a second referendum. If they cannot of will not catty out the will of the people, you are not good enough. Quit.
Me I go along with the anarchy bit, people are getting frustrated and angry.
		
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Perhaps in a PR system a party would not chose leaders that are so ideologically dogmatic and more those that are open to some compromise.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm sure Sturgeon would be over the moon if proportional representation was ever adopted by the UK. 

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Assuming you are being ironic 

Why ? We have it in Scotland.
PR would certainly bring a fairer system to the rUK


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## IanM (May 29, 2019)

Nice to see the MEP who said the Brexit Party was a front for money laundering received legal papers this morning..... response should be interesting


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## drdel (May 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is PR a bad thing? It shouldn't be about which politicians like it, it should be about whats best for the UK.
		
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Where did I say it was a bad idea?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jo Swinson will be the next leader, she will do well.
		
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Well let's see.  Though a General Election in the not too distant future might see her struggle to hold her East Dunbartonshire seat.  Good luck to her.


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## IanM (Jul 22, 2019)

The Policeman from Family Guy is the new Lib Dim leader?  Wow!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well let's see.  Though a General Election in the not too distant future might see her struggle to hold her East Dunbartonshire seat.  Good luck to her.
		
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She has no chance of holding her seat after her false comments on the Govan further education statistics.
She haplessly continued to support her porkies after every professional body called them out as false.


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