# Men's vs Women's Tees



## Capella (Aug 24, 2016)

Quite a few men seem to feel that they are at a disadvantage when teeing off from the white or yellow tees in a comp and the ladies tee off from the reds. And while I appreciate that due to the golf course layout (and because almost all courses are designed with a good male player in mind and with little regard to female players) it might be difficult to find a fair location for the shorter tees, it is very unlikely that on average women get an advantage here. On the contary. There might be the occasional hole where the women's tees take certain hazards out of play, but I rarely find courses where the gap in distance between the gent's and ladies' tee boxes is remotely big enough to make up for the difference in average shot length between male and female players. 

Yes, I know, most of you guys will have been outdriven by a competent female player on occasion and it stings. Get over it. That does not mean that a) she will be still longer than you after the second shot and b) that the average female player ever comes close to hitting it that far. If the setup of courses would favour female players so much, their handicaps should be lower than men's on average. While the truth is: they aren't. Far from it. Nowhere, actually (well, I don't have numbers for South Korea). 

Yes, there are female players about that hit it almost as far as an average male player. But that's the point: the average guy vs. an exceptionally talented (agile/strong/flexible whatever) woman. Lexi Thompsons don't grow on trees, you know. 

It makes me really mad. I am a crappy golfer. I haven't been playing the game long, I am still learning. But according to every statistic I can find on average shot length, I am not a short hitter for a lady. I am right at or slightly above average. At my home course there is not a single par 4 that I can reach in regulation. And I mean: when I hit a perfect tee shot and then hit an equally perfect 3 wood. The high handicapped men I play with might struggle because they hit their shots all over the place, but very few of them don't have at least the potential to get it on the green in two shots as far as length is concerned (except for the stroke index 1 monster par 4 that every course seems to have). I am tired of men being miffed that I "outdrive" them (because once every other month I hit a drive over 150 yards which gets some role when it lands) cos I end up two yards in front of them and then on the next shot I grab my hybrid to lay up while they happily attack the green with a 9-iron or wedge.

Even on our par 3s, I very often have driver or a wood in hand to reach the green, while the guys take a short iron. I hit my woods relatively straight and at least with my 7wood I am even precise, but it is nowhere near the precision I could reach with an iron.

A good article on the subject can be found here:
http://www.golfwithwomen.com/?p=242

I don't mind playing a longer course. I don't mind taking three shots to get onto a par 4 green. But I do mind being at that much of a disadvantage to start with and the guys are still complaining about the "unfairness" of it. (that said I do admit that I found the courses I played in the UK to be marginally fairer, maybe because many of them are older and generally slightly shorter and because long par 4s sometimes play as par 5s for the ladies, something that is very rare in Germany)


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## DRW (Aug 24, 2016)

I don't have a problem with it and on the whole agree with the different tees.

However I do sometimes wonder if it would be better that everyone plays of yellows and therefore the ladies would tend to have a higher handicap and equal everything up. This would then mean a short hitting male or lady would be adjusted via handicap.

That said, my wife hates the long par 4(ie 350 yards or more), as she hits the ball about 140ish in summer with a driver, so just makes a long slog of it for her and would put her off playing golf even more, so red tees are a good idea.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 24, 2016)

The issues here are quite simple, but because they cross over the overall issue is complex!
The simple one to start with is should (do) players only play courses where they are able to make the majority of greens in regulation (or even do this with an 8 iron on average as proposed by the play it forward proponents)?
This bit isn't a gender specific issue at all - this issue crosses gender (and it makes me mad when it's raised as a gender one!!!).

In an attempt to answer the above, I play with many ladies who profess to like to hit greens in regulation but do not like playing on short courses that enable them to do so - they get quite derogatory about such pitch and putt courses! Generally these are mature experienced golfers with stable handicaps and capabilities.
Secondly, when learning and developing I often see players who play most of their golf on such course completely flounder when taking on significantly longer courses. As an example we have no significant carries from our tees (13th being the exception) but the move from the yellow to white tees (representing  nominally 2 shots difficulty) delivers more like 10 in the mind of many higher handicapped golfers who can't adjust their approach (they should read some of Bob's posts on the subject of par) and self destruct.
Whilst I completely agree that there should be a wider range of tees in use for players to select from; threads on here (and experience) reinforce the view that a huge number of players wish to be challenged rather than accommodated by the courses they choose to play.
We are about to add another set of tees to our course and it will be fascinating to see what happens in practice regarding the choices people make when playing the course - the reds are already a rated mens course but I've never seen anyone play from them; even those pressing for something shorter than the yellows! 
I would love to be proved wrong for a lot of reasons...


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## delc (Aug 24, 2016)

I occasionally play with a County level lady golfer, and she can outdrive me, even though she is getting on a bit!


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## Foxholer (Aug 24, 2016)

The guys who really think you have out-driven them are idiots! Some may simply be joshing. I was part of a winning Texas Scramble team some years ago where, if it wasn't for the rules of the comp, we would have taken the lady's Drive on almost every hole - as it was almost always closer to the green/pin and ALWAYS in the middle of the fairway! We almost got into 'foul trouble' with the need to take 3 drives for one of the guys - but the pressure seemed to inspire him!

You haven't 'out-driven' them! You are merely playing your second shot from closer to the pin than they are. I have no doubt that your 1st shot was a lot closer to the pin than theirs was! 

Just laugh at them! Those that are simply joshing will smile with you and those (idiots) that can't actually see why you need that head start need to laughed at! If that doesn't work, then simply suggest that are pretty short-hitters if they can't drive further than you! The likelihood is that they'll really go for the next one, ending up even further away from their intention than normal!

While gaining length, either through learning how to hit it better or simply swinging faster (often difficult for ladies), will very likely benefit you significantly at some stage - when/if you CAN reach a significant number of Greens in Reg - I believe it's far better to cultivate and play to your strengths, which are likely to be in the short game area, as you naturally use that part of your game a lot during each round! If your short game (from 80 yards in and including putting) isn't particularly strong, then that's certainly an area you should concentrate your practice on!


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## delc (Aug 24, 2016)

delc said:



			I occasionally play with a County level lady golfer, and she can outdrive me, even though she is getting on a bit!  

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P.S. When she is playing for fun, she normally plays off the mens white tees, as she doesn't find playing off the red tees challenging enough!


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## patricks148 (Aug 24, 2016)

my self and a couple of mates played off the reds one night for a laugh, as we were playing with one of their wives.

even with my megure distance off the tee it was a bit of a pitch and putt TBH. 

Apart from a couple of holes, we were quite a way forward and on 4 holes we had an extra shot to play with.

I think i ended up 6 under gross and one off the guys, who is off scratch was something like 10 under. On a couple of the  par 4's we were so far  forward and where landing  area off the red tee ( well for me anyway) i would have had to carry my drives 280/300 to reach off the white. So was hitting a SW for 2nd shots, where i would normally be hitting 5 iron or more and was playing it as a par 5 instead of a 4 off the white.

But the lady we played with was amazed how far down we where compared to her, so i suppose it is a gender issue when it comes to length, as most men are always going to hit the ball much further. The ladies course lay out at our proves this. There are 7 Bunkers on the course that are only in play from the ladies tees, some of these are maybe 100 yards in front of the tee, these are not in play for the men even from the white on a normal day ( only a 3 club wind)


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## 351DRIVER (Aug 24, 2016)

Golf is at the end of the day an individual game, focus on your own shot

Different tees makes sense

Different tees based on ability makes sense too, if you can offer golfers options then do it

I would not expect my mother to play the same tees as me, one of us will not enjoy our game


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## woody69 (Aug 24, 2016)

They should do away with ladies and men's tees and have tees based on ability IMHO. Each one rated appropriately SSS etc. In a comp you play the appropriate tee and for a fun social round, you play which ever one you want. The gender split is one that should be consigned to the history books.

The difference between red and blues on ours is excessive on some holes. Over 90 yards on some with the largest different being 114 yards between men's comp tees and women's.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2016)

I p;lay a .ot of mixed golf and have never had any issue with the ladies off the ladies red tee and gents off the Gents White


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## 351DRIVER (Aug 24, 2016)

woody69 said:



			They should do away with ladies and men's tees and have tees based on ability IMHO. Each one rated appropriately SSS etc. In a comp you play the appropriate tee and for a fun social round, you play which ever one you want. The gender split is one that should be consigned to the history books.

The difference between red and blues on ours is excessive on some holes. Over 90 yards on some with the largest different being 114 yards between men's comp tees and women's.
		
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Agree with this, anyone should be allowed to pick whichever tee is most appropriate to their skill, i heard a rumour that golf is meant to be fun


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## Tashyboy (Aug 24, 2016)

Played against a woman who played off 36 in a mixed comp week last Friday. She was good, very good. Nearly every drive she was well in front of me and she had a good second shot. She has been playing golf nine months and had loads of lessons. My PP has been playing 2 years and had none. It shows.
A lot of hazards are took out of the equation from where the women's tees are. Out of an 18 hole two ball better ball she scored on 12 holes, him 5 with a blob. They shot 44 points and won by four shots. It was a joy to watch a newbie hit a drive with a genteel draw. 
But started a blog yesterday which rubbed four of us up playing in a fourball yesterday. Four women were playing behind us yesterday. They were behind us on the front nine, and we left them a hole and a half behind by the time we had played 18. They came over moaning about our pace of play. On the 7th. We did the front nine in 2 HR 5 mins playing off whites in a nine hole comp. they were in the same 9 hole ladies comp playing off reds. Shorter tees, less hazards. Par threes a lot easier to hit, two par fives where you have to wait until the bell is rung.
Men have to understand that some women will out drive them, and get over it. But some women have to understand that the men's course will play take longer and take a bit longer.


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## Capella (Aug 24, 2016)

woody69 said:



			The difference between red and blues on ours is excessive on some holes. Over 90 yards on some with the largest different being 114 yards between men's comp tees and women's.
		
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But that's the point. 114 yard difference on a par 5 is not excessive if you take aveage shot lengths of male and female players into account. It is right where it should be or might even be too little, if you go by the numbers from the article I linked in the op. In another article she claims that for a fair comparison, the women's course length should be about 65 % or the men's and backs it up with numbers. of course it looks like a massive difference on the course, but when you base it on average shot lengths, it is not.


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## 351DRIVER (Aug 24, 2016)

Capella said:



			But that's the point. 114 yard difference on a par 5 is not excessive if you take aveage shot lengths of male and female players into account. It is right where it should be or might even be too little, if you go by the numbers from the article I linked in the op. In another article she claims that for a fair comparison, the women's course length should be about 65 % or the men's and backs it up with numbers. of course it looks like a massive difference on the course, but when you base it on average shot lengths, it is not.
		
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I think this is because the default male mindset is that we should be further down the hole after our tee shots..

So when you have a guy that its it 200 yards and a woman that also hits it 200 yards, he is going to be miffed often.


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## Slab (Aug 24, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			I think this is because the default male mindset is that we should be further down the hole after our tee shots..

So when you have a guy that its it 200 yards and a woman that also hits it 200 yards, he is going to be miffed often.
		
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I think when the hole/course was designed the designer had a carry distance in mind in order to play the hole as it was intended (i.e a challenge but a fair challenge) 
So selecting tees based on this would seem like a solution but has a heap of obstacles to overcome (not least a 4-ball potentially playing off 4 different tees)

So regardless of gender if you carry it 200yrds 'x' coloured tees are going to be the ideal tees to use


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## USER1999 (Aug 24, 2016)

What the men forget, is that their handicap is held off the whites, or, in my case, off the stones, at the very back of the tees. We get used to playing weekend golf off a shorter course, move the whites forwards a bit, etc. Then, when it's a comp, back we go to the tips.

The ladies only play the one course length. So they always play the same course, casual or competition. 

So in a mixed comp, the ladies look to have an advantage, as the men go from their normal tees, to the longest ones. In fact though, they are just going to where their handicap is held, so it all evens out.

At my course, par 72, SSS 72 off the stones, but we normally play off the whites, par 72, SSS 70. However, no one remembers this, as we never medal off these tees, so it's irrelevant. 
In the mixed comp though, all you get is moaning, as the gents course looks to be more difficult than the ladies  because of the perception of added length to what you would normally play.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 24, 2016)

Capella said:



			But that's the point. 114 yard difference on a par 5 is not excessive if you take aveage shot lengths of male and female players into account. It is right where it should be or might even be too little, if you go by the numbers from the article I linked in the op. In another article she claims that for a fair comparison, the women's course length should be about 65 % or the men's and backs it up with numbers. of course it looks like a massive difference on the course, but when you base it on average shot lengths, it is not.
		
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You have to be careful when bringing these average stats into wider equations. If you go right back into the source material (not the articles) you will find that the averages aren't appropriate to all situations at all. Ladies have a very different capability range and weighting within the handicap system (far more much weaker women) For example, if you take the average female 18 handicap player and the average male senior 18 handicapper you will find something like 25 yds (I pick senior male as the bigger problem with males and averages is accuracy and learning; they don't become the stable consistent players that ladies do until they become seniors! From the fairway the difference is even less, although the club's used may change (this is also a red herring in much of the material quoted as it makes little difference if one persons 5r performs like another's 7i - it's only when you get to elite levels that ball control becomes a reality with lofted clubs!


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## duncan mackie (Aug 24, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			What the men forget, is that their handicap is held off the whites, or, in my case, off the stones, at the very back of the tees. We get used to playing weekend golf off a shorter course, move the whites forwards a bit, etc. Then, when it's a comp, back we go to the tips.

The ladies only play the one course length. So they always play the same course, casual or competition. 

So in a mixed comp, the ladies look to have an advantage, as the men go from their normal tees, to the longest ones. In fact though, they are just going to where their handicap is held, so it all evens out.

At my course, par 72, SSS 72 off the stones, but we normally play off the whites, par 72, SSS 70. However, no one remembers this, as we never medal off these tees, so it's irrelevant. 
In the mixed comp though, all you get is moaning, as the gents course looks to be more difficult than the ladies  because of the perception of added length to what you would normally play.
		
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My handicap, and that of many male golfers, is based on performances from a range of tees (and sometimes a range of courses!).


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## Smiffy (Aug 24, 2016)

I held a Society do once at Singing Hills, and knowing the course reasonably well arranged for a longest drive competition on the 5th hole of the Valley 9, nice, long uphill par 4 with a fairly wide fairway.
A few days before the meet, one of the members asked if his wife could come along.
We'd never had a lady playing in one of our meets before, and not wanting to appear rude, I told him this would be okay.
How did I know that the ladies tee on the 5th Valley was 140 yards forward of the mens? I'd never had reason to look at it before!!
She won the longest drive comp with a knobbed 150 yarder.


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## woody69 (Aug 24, 2016)

Capella said:



			But that's the point. 114 yard difference on a par 5 is not excessive if you take aveage shot lengths of male and female players into account. It is right where it should be or might even be too little, if you go by the numbers from the article I linked in the op. In another article she claims that for a fair comparison, the women's course length should be about 65 % or the men's and backs it up with numbers. of course it looks like a massive difference on the course, but when you base it on average shot lengths, it is not.
		
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Why should we base it on average shot length though? It should be based on the ability of the golfer, male or female. That is what I was trying to articulate. A woman who has a Cat 1 or Cat 2 handicap is going to have a significant advantage over a male playing off Cat 4 already. Add to that over 1500 yards less over 18 holes and average shot length is is fairly irrelevant


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## Slab (Aug 24, 2016)

murphthemog said:



*What the men forget, is that their handicap is held off the whites, or, in my case, off the stones, at the very back of the tees.* We get used to playing weekend golf off a shorter course, move the whites forwards a bit, etc. Then, when it's a comp, back we go to the tips.

The ladies only play the one course length. So they always play the same course, casual or competition. 

So in a mixed comp, the ladies look to have an advantage, as the men go from their normal tees, to the longest ones. In fact though, they are just going to where their handicap is held, so it all evens out.

At my course, par 72, SSS 72 off the stones, but we normally play off the whites, par 72, SSS 70. However, no one remembers this, as we never medal off these tees, so it's irrelevant. 
In the mixed comp though, all you get is moaning, as the gents course looks to be more difficult than the ladies  because of the perception of added length to what you would normally play.
		
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Is this something common to UK courses? 

Here, no one I know has their handicap set from the farthest tees on any of the courses, it'd be sheer lunacy and no regular club comps are run from the back tees. They are there for the really low guys and pros to use in serious comps 

I can just imagine next months club champs would be a riot playing to around 7,500 yrds


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## Capella (Aug 24, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			How did I know that the ladies tee on the 5th Valley was 140 yards forward of the mens? I'd never had reason to look at it before!!
She won the longest drive comp with a knobbed 150 yarder.


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Don't know about the "knobbed" part, for her a 150 yards drive might have been a decent shot. But I agree that the stakes are different for longest drive comps. For the simple reason that the purpose of the different tee positions is not only to make up for difference in driver lengths, but for the shot(s) that follow as well. 140 yards difference on a par 4 does sound a lot though, even to me. The biggest gap on our course from the whites to the reds is 91 metres (so roughly 100 yards), and that's on a long par 5. On the par 4 holes it is between 30 and 60 metres. The course plays 5750 yars off the red tees (par 72). And it is not even long by German standards, I know quite a few that play even longer.


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## Region3 (Aug 24, 2016)

I don't understand why any comparison needs to be made between male and female golfers, or indeed any compensations made to make things 'fairer'.

If men got their handicaps playing from their tees and women got theirs from their own tees, then if they each play from their own tees they should be equally matched after any hc allowances.

Are you saying that if a hole is driver - 8 iron for an average man, it should also be driver - 8 iron for an average woman?


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## Capella (Aug 24, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Are you saying that if a hole is driver - 8 iron for an average man, it should also be driver - 8 iron for an average woman?
		
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I think we would have a lot more female golfers if it were.


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## 351DRIVER (Aug 24, 2016)

Capella said:



			I think we would have a lot more female golfers if it were.
		
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This would help there be more golfers in general, if you offer everyone the opportunity to play from as many varied tees as the course can accommodate, ones persons challenge is the next persons never playing that game again...


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## FairwayDodger (Aug 24, 2016)

In handicap competition terms it's a non-issue as the handicaps are measured off the appropriate tees. If I played all my golf from the white tees and men's SSS my handicap would be higher.

The length difference isn't just for the tee shot remember. In mixed groups I'm often further down the fairway than my male playing partners but usually they'll still be hitting a shorter iron into the green than I need to.

I know this isn't the issue the OP is raising, but from my perspective women's tees tend to be too short and often ruin a number of holes on the course. There's too much pandering to the lower level of ability. All courses should have a variety of tees measured with both male and female SSS in my opinion.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I know this isn't the issue the OP is raising, but from my perspective women's tees tend to be too short and often ruin a number of holes on the course. There's too much pandering to the lower level of ability. All courses should have a variety of tees measured with both male and female SSS in my opinion.
		
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In a nutshell.

However, once there you will get the issue of which Tees we should compete from (completely different from which people should play from!).  SSS doesnt cover this for everyone, and although USGA and EGU ratings do go some way towards it they can't either.
By this I mean that any individual player will know how his game fits with the choice of tees to give him, or her, the optimum scoring situation in any given conditions. They won't be equal - not even close.


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## Smiffy (Aug 24, 2016)

Capella said:



			Don't know about the "knobbed" part
		
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I do. I was in the group behind her, playing the previous hole and was watching her tee off.
As knobbed drives go, it was among the finest


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## Farmergeddon (Aug 24, 2016)

As far as I am concerned have the tees where you like but my particular bee is that the Ladies always play from the same tee. I think they are selling themselves short by not stretching themselves.. In the 90s our course was lengthened considerably and initially scores went down and handicaps went up but slowly we all became better golfers I reckon if, as has been mentioned before, Ladies played their comps off the yellow tees they may find the same.


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## LincolnShep (Aug 24, 2016)

Slab said:



			Is this something common to UK courses?
		
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Yes, a typical course has white and yellow tees for men.  Most qualifying competitions will be played off the longer white tees.  Some might be off the yellows but that may well mean you're playing to a lower SSS.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 24, 2016)

I would be happy to have my H/C re assessed from the ladies tees , but it would probably remain rubbish.


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## KitaScot (Aug 24, 2016)

I'm a short hitter, and when playing with longer drivers, they hit off a box behind me....still, their drives aren't much farther than mine in the fairway, leaving me with a hybrid, and sometimes a fairway wood, to the green while they're hitting irons.  Short hitters from the short tees still leaves them tougher shots to the green...advantage, long drivers.  I get a lot of "practice" with my short game around the green, and my developed competency there often makes up for the short game off the tee.

The problem with even shorter tees is that they bypass/avoid a lot of the features of a hole that gives the course its identity.


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## MadAdey (Aug 24, 2016)

I think it is about time that the UK adopted the US system, that way anyone can play from any tee and their handicap is adjusted accordingly. My handicap is of the white tees and I have the gold and red infront and the blue and black behind. I can go play from the reds if I want but I loose 5 shots from my handicap, likewise if I go back to the blacks I gain 4 shots. 

They don't look at the tees here as being mens and ladies, but look at them by colour. In one of the role ups I sometimes play with there are a coupe of old boys who play from the reds, because they can't it far enough to reach some of the fairways. They take the hit on their handicap, but it enables everyone to play the course based on their ability.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 25, 2016)

MadAdey said:



			I think it is about time that the UK adopted the US system, that way anyone can play from any tee and their handicap is adjusted accordingly. My handicap is of the white tees and I have the gold and red infront and the blue and black behind. I can go play from the reds if I want but I loose 5 shots from my handicap, likewise if I go back to the blacks I gain 4 shots. 

They don't look at the tees here as being mens and ladies, but look at them by colour. In one of the role ups I sometimes play with there are a coupe of old boys who play from the reds, because they can't it far enough to reach some of the fairways. They take the hit on their handicap, but it enables everyone to play the course based on their ability.
		
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It's not really a US UK thing - I can put in handicap cards off blue (74) white (73) yellow (71)  or red (69) although the only tees rated for ladies are the red (73). We are looking to add another set that I would anticipate coming in at 70, and I expect USGA ratings to reflect current SSS when they are done next year because of the nature of the course.

However, most older courses in the UK simply don't have the back tees that newer US set ups do, and the pattern of Mens comps of the back and seniors off the yellows, ladies of the red is really a reflection of that.


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