# Politics/life too complex for Joe Public?



## drdel (Jun 11, 2017)

Is the average person too stupid?

I'd suggest that for a very large proportion of the UK population life is too complicated. People:
1. take drugs
2. smoke.
3. borrow money on credit cards at stupid rates
4. take out loans on cars with no idea of what they've signed and the future cost commitments
5. think 'they' (usually government) has limitless supply of money
6. TV soap characters are 'real'
7. believe politicians, newspapers, internet
8. write-off expert opinions on health, finance etc.
(add your own...)

We expect these idiots to vote and decide on complicated decisions and then moan when they mess up our little world ! Democracy is a problem when the unintelligent masses get hold of social media, YouTube and communicate with each other;

we need a dictator !

Sunny and hot so I'm off to chase a white ball for 4 hrs!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2017)

Well that's a starting post that goes straight for the throat.

Maybe you are being a bit unkind to the majority of the nation.

Yes there are people that fall into your categories but I would suggest they are very much in a minority - because of social media though they do get highlighted. I would also suggest that a great deal of people in the groups you mention prob can't be bothered to vote except the people that smoke I'm not sure what they have to do with voting ? 

I guess it's called something when a moan about unintelligent masses on social media is posted on a social media forum


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## Tashyboy (Jun 11, 2017)

1, don't take drugs.
2, don't smoke, dirty disgusting habit.
3, Don't owe money on credit card.
4, owe three months on a car on 0% finance.
5, Don't think the government has an unlimited supply of money. think Governments have an irresponsible attitude spending to our money.
6, Soap characters are not real, but some I can relate to.
7, I believe in life experience, they have helped mould me. some poilticians, papers etc have hidden agendas.
8, Never ever written off advice of health and finance experts.

Even if they tell me what I don't want to hear.

After disagreeing with most of what you say, Life is still to complex &#128513;&#128077;

Weathers nice so off for a walk up Mam Tor for four hours.


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## louise_a (Jun 11, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			1, don't take drugs.
2, don't smoke, dirty disgusting habit.
3, Don't owe money on credit card.
4, owe three months on a car on 0% finance.
5, Don't think the government has an unlimited supply of money. think Governments have an irresponsible attitude spending to our money.
6, Soap characters are not real, but some I can relate to.
7, I believe in life experience, they have helped mould me. some poilticians, papers etc have hidden agendas.
8, Never ever written off advice of health and finance experts.

Even if they tell me what I don't want to hear.

After disagreeing with most of what you say, Life is still to complex &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56397;

Weathers nice so off for a walk up Mam Tor for four hours.
		
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Some nice walks around there Tash,


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2017)

One of the reasons we have representive politics is so that some else who has time to dedicate to forming policies and making decisions does the complex stuff for us. Is Joe Public too thick to understand? No. Joe Public understands as much as each individual wants to. A lot of that understanding comes from what they experience. 

Is life itself too complex? It's as complicated as we make it. However, I'd argue that the work life balance can be difficult. I'm on my second boss who doesn't think twice about ringing late afternoon and asking for figures or a presentation for 9am the following morning. Sometimes he gets a "no." But more often than not I'll be putting something together at midnight.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2017)

"write off expert opinions on finance"

yep, regularly, and will continue to do so based on some of the misleading garbage that gets written by so called experts


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## Tashyboy (Jun 11, 2017)

louise_a said:



			Some nice walks around there Tash,
		
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Me bum cheeks are killing. Only dulled by the sweet taste of a lamb and red wine pie in the george pub in castleton &#128513;


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## ScienceBoy (Jun 11, 2017)

Agree with the title but not all the post.

How on earth should a green thinking, remain voting, hard brexit accepting (in or out, nothing in beteeen) conservative feeling person vote?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2017)

drdel said:



			Is the average person too stupid?

I'd suggest that for a very large proportion of the UK population life is too complicated. People:
1. take drugs
2. smoke.
3. borrow money on credit cards at stupid rates
4. take out loans on cars with no idea of what they've signed and the future cost commitments
5. think 'they' (usually government) has limitless supply of money
6. TV soap characters are 'real'
7. believe politicians, newspapers, internet
8. write-off expert opinions on health, finance etc.
(add your own...)

We expect these idiots to vote and decide on complicated decisions and then moan when they mess up our little world ! Democracy is a problem when the unintelligent masses get hold of social media, YouTube and communicate with each other;

we need a dictator !

Sunny and hot so I'm off to chase a white ball for 4 hrs!
		
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The people you have listed are the ones who are Oxbridge educated.

We should convince them they have no right of entitlement and get them to understand what real working/middle class life is like.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm just so grateful we have an open, honest and unbiased free press to give us all the information we need to help us make those challenging life choices


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

Ah well! As my old Granny used to say "If things don't change they will stay the same"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I'm just so grateful we have an open, honest and unbiased free press to give us all the information we need to help us make those challenging life choices

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Just as well most under 24 yr olds don't read it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just as well most under 24 yr olds don't read it.
		
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Have you asked them all?


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## IanM (Jun 12, 2017)

drdel said:



			Is the average person too stupid?

I'd suggest that for a very large proportion of the UK population life is too complicated. People:
1. take drugs
2. smoke.
3. borrow money on credit cards at stupid rates
4. take out loans on cars with no idea of what they've signed and the future cost commitments
5. think 'they' (usually government) has limitless supply of money
6. TV soap characters are 'real'
7. believe politicians, newspapers, internet
8. write-off expert opinions on health, finance etc.
(add your own...)

We expect these idiots to vote and decide on complicated decisions and then moan when they mess up our little world ! Democracy is a problem when the unintelligent masses get hold of social media, YouTube and communicate with each other;

we need a dictator !

Sunny and hot so I'm off to chase a white ball for 4 hrs!
		
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Well... we might get a Marxist in Number 10 soon.   Be careful what you wish for


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## jusme (Jun 12, 2017)

Politicians rely on and play on our stupidity or fear/anxieties (or both) and have been for ever. An educated voter is a dangerous voter. You only have to look at manifestos and promises. They rely on people believing this nonsense. The masses must be kept in the dark otherwise they might rebel


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## Crazyface (Jun 12, 2017)

I've figured it out. no matter who is in power they turn the screw on us "hard working families". Them at the top money wise find out how to hide it and not pay tax. Them at the bottom get money given to them, NHS pills and potions for free, will be looked after in old age, for free, in fact everything for free. 
It's us in the middle that the money is taken from and will be for ever more. Once to realize this you can stop worrying who is actually in charge.


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I've figured it out. no matter who is in power they turn the screw on us "hard working families". Them at the top money wise find out how to hide it and not pay tax. Them at the bottom get money given to them, NHS pills and potions for free, will be looked after in old age, for free, in fact everything for free. 
It's us in the middle that the money is taken from and will be for ever more. Once to realize this you can stop worrying who is actually in charge.
		
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Is, I fear, the right answer !!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I've figured it out. no matter who is in power they turn the screw on us "hard working families". Them at the top money wise find out how to hide it and not pay tax. Them at the bottom get money given to them, NHS pills and potions for free, will be looked after in old age, for free, in fact everything for free. 
It's us in the middle that the money is taken from and will be for ever more. Once to realize this you can stop worrying who is actually in charge.
		
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Maybe it's a good job some of those in the middle are willing to stand up for what they believe in rather than them moaning about the above and below who give up.


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## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe it's a good job some of those in the middle are willing to stand up for what they believe in rather than them moaning about the above and below who give up.
		
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But he is right, even if some of us care passionately about looking after the disadvantaged and the weak. Each party offers a bit more at each election, or something a bit different. It's become a spiral election after election. But who funds it? Can't take it from the poor, and the rich don't really feel the pinch....the middle feel it every time.

For me, raise the tax allowance before tax is applied. Then 2% more off everyone. There will be a critical mass number that will work.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 12, 2017)

I'd keep it simple and set tax at 10% on ALL income... And, I reckon that would leave us not too short of what the nation would need to pay its way... Unfortunately though, the already rich and big business would still absolutely do its best to not pay its share... Taxing those at the top remains an impossible dream... I genuinely feel they believe they can take it with them to the afterlife...


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I've figured it out. no matter who is in power they turn the screw on us "hard working families". Them at the top money wise find out how to hide it and not pay tax. Them at the bottom get money given to them, NHS pills and potions for free, will be looked after in old age, for free, in fact everything for free. 
It's us in the middle that the money is taken from and will be for ever more. Once to realize this you can stop worrying who is actually in charge.
		
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And: the votes are not spend equal between the three sectors. It's likely that the dregs are a majority supported by the minority who has to pay up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2017)

drdel said:



			And: the votes are not spend equal between the three sectors. It's likely that the dregs are a majority supported by the minority who has to pay up.
		
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More insults, we wouldn't be in this mess if the minority at the top paid what was due, they owe far more than the minority at the bottom are fiddling.
Each are as bad as each other, but it's easier for you to knock some more than others.


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## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			More insults, we wouldn't be in this mess if the minority at the top paid what was due, they owe far more than the minority at the bottom are fiddling.
Each are as bad as each other, but it's easier for you to knock some more than others.
		
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Playing devil's advocate, someone paying Â£80k in tax for a salary of Â£250k is already contributing *Â£78k* more than someone on Â£20k. I don't think someone on Â£20k should be paying any tax. Equally, taking Â£80k off someone is robbery.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Playing devil's advocate, someone paying Â£80k in tax for a salary of Â£250k is already contributing *Â£78k* more than someone on Â£20k. I don't think someone on Â£20k should be paying any tax. Equally, taking Â£80k off someone is robbery.
		
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I'm on about the amount of unpaid tax that HMRC is chasing, apologies if I confused you.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I'm on about the amount of unpaid tax that HMRC is chasing, apologies if I confused you.
		
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Start with the self employed then.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Start with the self employed then.
		
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Start with everyone rather than singleing out particular groups.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Start with the self employed then.
		
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I'd prefer they start with SIR Phillip Green...

Aside from all else, he's just dumped a 500M 'legacy' onto the British taxpayer and sailed off, on his super yacht, without a single regret... And, what makes it worse, he's even more of a hero to the blue rinse set... Tosser :angry:..


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2017)

drdel said:



			Is the average person too stupid?

I'd suggest that for a very large proportion of the UK population life is too complicated. People:
1. take drugs
2. smoke.
3. borrow money on credit cards at stupid rates
4. take out loans on cars with no idea of what they've signed and the future cost commitments
5. think 'they' (usually government) has limitless supply of money
6. TV soap characters are 'real'
7. *believe politicians, newspapers, internet*
8. write-off expert opinions on health, finance etc.
(add your own...)

*We expect these idiots to vote and decide on complicated decisions* and then moan when they mess up our little world ! Democracy is a problem when the unintelligent masses get hold of social media, YouTube and communicate with each other;

we need a dictator !

Sunny and hot so I'm off to chase a white ball for 4 hrs!
		
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With the best will in the world, based on some of your posts you seem to have believed a few papers or politicians.  As have I.  As long as people constructively analyse and question it and don't just confuse a comment piece or politically motivated headline with unbiased news then I don't think that makes people idiots.  As as I said, if that was true then there are a fair few idiots on here as well. So we best stop voting. By the way, are you including the people who believed the Â£350 to the NHS bus thing in this as well? 

And as for people smoking then really? Is that how you define an idiot who is apparently a bit stupid?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			With the best will in the world, based on some of your posts you seem to have believed a few papers or politicians.  As have I.  As long as people constructively analyse and question it and don't just confuse a comment piece or politically motivated headline with unbiased news then I don't think that makes people idiots.  As as I said, if that was true then there are a fair few idiots on here as well. So we best stop voting. By the way, are you including the people who believed the Â£350 to the NHS bus thing in this as well? 

And as for people smoking then really? Is that how you define an idiot who is apparently a bit stupid? 
	View attachment 22927

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Ah - the fella from _Back to the Future_ - an idiot for smoking?  I suppose it's all relative.


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			With the best will in the world, based on some of your posts you seem to have believed a few papers or politicians.  As have I.  As long as people constructively analyse and question it and don't just confuse a comment piece or politically motivated headline with unbiased news then I don't think that makes people idiots.  As as I said, if that was true then there are a fair few idiots on here as well. So we best stop voting. By the way, are you including the people who believed the Â£350 to the NHS bus thing in this as well? 

And as for people smoking then really? Is that how you define an idiot who is apparently a bit stupid? 
	View attachment 22927

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You need to re-tune your 'wind-up' alert! Hint's in the title!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Start with everyone rather than singleing out particular groups.
		
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I thought you were singling out the wealthy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought you were singling out the wealthy.
		
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Nobody should be allowed to get away with not paying their taxes, whether that's an individual or a multi national corporation.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody should be allowed to get away with not paying their taxes, whether that's an individual or a multi national corporation.
		
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Or the self Employed.  Unless you want to single out the wealthy!


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## bobmac (Jun 13, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			And as for people smoking then really? Is that how you define an idiot who is apparently a bit stupid? 
	View attachment 22927

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Anyone who takes up smoking in recent times is stupid


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Or the self Employed.  Unless you want to single out the wealthy!
		
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What's the issue with self-employed?
Happy for anyone not paying tax to be targeted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

Wondering how many realise that the Labour Party 45% tax rate would mean someone earning *Â£90k* per annum paying *Â£9.61 a week* more tax.  Not a big ask for those fortunate to be earning at that level.


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## Khamelion (Jun 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Is life itself too complex? It's as complicated as we make it. However, I'd argue that the work life balance can be difficult. I'm on my second boss who doesn't think twice about ringing late afternoon and asking for figures or a presentation for 9am the following morning. Sometimes he gets a "no." But more often than not I'll be putting something together at midnight.
		
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Oh yes, the number of times just as you're about to close the laptop lid, does an email, skype message or phone call arrive ask for something quick, which 3hrs later has turned into a marathon and any plans for a personal life go out the window.


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## londonlewis (Jun 13, 2017)

drdel said:



			Is the average person too stupid?

I'd suggest that for a very large proportion of the UK population life is too complicated. People:
1. take drugs
2. smoke.
3. borrow money on credit cards at stupid rates
4. take out loans on cars with no idea of what they've signed and the future cost commitments
5. think 'they' (usually government) has limitless supply of money
6. TV soap characters are 'real'
7. believe politicians, newspapers, internet
8. write-off expert opinions on health, finance etc.
(add your own...)

We expect these idiots to vote and decide on complicated decisions and then moan when they mess up our little world ! Democracy is a problem when the unintelligent masses get hold of social media, YouTube and communicate with each other;

we need a dictator !

Sunny and hot so I'm off to chase a white ball for 4 hrs!
		
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How come you left off 'drink alcohol'?


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## drdel (Jun 13, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			How come you left off 'drink alcohol'?
		
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Because I only wanted to 'light the touch paper' and cause mild irritation to the political posters who are easily wound up - not set off the while thing.


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## londonlewis (Jun 13, 2017)

drdel said:



			Because I only wanted to 'light the touch paper' and cause mild irritation to the political posters who are easily wound up - not set off the while thing.
		
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This is possibly one of my favourite responses ever!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			What's the issue with self-employed?
Happy for anyone not paying tax to be targeted.
		
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Not an issue just balance.  I hear a lot about people that earn high salaries being critized for avoiding tax but I would hazard a guess that most tax avoidance is from self employed people, you see it everywhere, this price if you want an invoice, that price for cash in hand.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Not an issue just balance.  I hear a lot about people that earn high salaries being critized for avoiding tax but I would hazard a guess that most tax avoidance is from self employed people, you see it everywhere, this price if you want an invoice, that price for cash in hand.
		
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I don't doubt that doing things "cash in hand" goes on, or rather I know it goes on, but to say that most tax avoidance is because of that is just blinkered. Most tax avoidance is done by people, accountancies and companies who know the rules, how to work them and where to put monies so that it isn't counted. To blame the one man band self employed for the whole situation is laughable.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I don't doubt that doing things "cash in hand" goes on, or rather I know it goes on, but to say that most tax avoidance is because of that is just blinkered. Most tax avoidance is done by people, accountancies and companies who know the rules, how to work them and where to put monies so that it isn't counted. To blame the one man band self employed for the whole situation is laughable.
		
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Did I blame the self employed one man band for the whole situation? Read it again.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Did I blame the self employed one man band for the whole situation? Read it again.
		
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By inference, yes you did. The majority of self employed are one man bands.


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## londonlewis (Jun 14, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Not an issue just balance.  I hear a lot about people that earn high salaries being critized for avoiding tax but I would hazard a guess that most tax avoidance is from self employed people, you see it everywhere, this price if you want an invoice, that price for cash in hand.
		
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You must be kidding. 

In 2014 Shell paid no corporation tax despite making Â£20bn profit
In 2014/15 Vodafone paid no corporation tax despite profit of almost Â£2bn 
Starbucks used to use transfer pricing techniques to pay zero tax. 

Corporation tax is 20% so Shell avoided Â£4bn in tax. Vodafone avoided Â£400m in tax. 
Just those two companies alone must be just a little bit more than the occasional plumber taking cash in hand payments.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2017)

I still don't know the full meaning and the likely economic impact of leaving the Single Market and of leaving the Customs Union.  And I am making an effort.  How others who can't be bothered making an effort could ever understand such complex subjects is beyond me - but we are all expected to somehow know.  This is made worse by the fact that some important people who claim to know the impact won't tell me.  And I don't know why not.  Is it a secret?  Glad we won't have to try and understand such things as these ever again.

Also - I do wonder what proportion of the electorate properly understand, or are able to work out, the financial impact on any individual of the Labour Parties proposed 45% tax rate.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			By inference, yes you did. The majority of self employed are one man bands.
		
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You read it again.  I suggested that self employed are avoiding tax. Please show where I said no one else was?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			You must be kidding. 

In 2014 Shell paid no corporation tax despite making Â£20bn profit
In 2014/15 Vodafone paid no corporation tax despite profit of almost Â£2bn 
Starbucks used to use transfer pricing techniques to pay zero tax. 

Corporation tax is 20% so Shell avoided Â£4bn in tax. Vodafone avoided Â£400m in tax. 
Just those two companies alone must be just a little bit more than the occasional plumber taking cash in hand payments.
		
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Am I kidding!   Why not try to look at the overall picture of how much Shell actually pays in Tax and what their  decommission costs are in the North Sea, It is quite legal and normal for an organisation to offset costs against profit.   Please read the attached:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...k-treasury-government-north-sea-a7789701.html


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 15, 2017)

anybody else want me to rename this thread " Who's Not Paying Enough Tax"  or something along those lines

can we get back on track or start another thread for tax dodgers


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			anybody else want me to rename this thread " Who's Not Paying Enough Tax"  or something along those lines

can we get back on track or start another thread for tax dodgers
		
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You mean back on track to the thread that the poster admitted was done to wind people up  
Looks like he did a good job!


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## londonlewis (Jun 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Am I kidding!   Why not try to look at the overall picture of how much Shell actually pays in Tax and what their  decommission costs are in the North Sea, It is quite legal and normal for an organisation to offset costs against profit.   Please read the attached:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...k-treasury-government-north-sea-a7789701.html

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Just because it is legal, doesn't mean it is right or fair. 
And arguing that Shell deserves to pay no corporation tax in the UK because of how much tax it pays elsewhere isn't exactly a solid argument. Or how much it is going to cost for it to decommission its North Sea oil rigs.  

I find it absolutely inconceivable that someone would try to defend a global oil & gas business.


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## Hobbit (Jun 15, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Just because it is legal, doesn't mean it is right or fair. 
And arguing that Shell deserves to pay no corporation tax in the UK because of how much tax it pays elsewhere isn't exactly a solid argument. Or how much it is going to cost for it to decommission its North Sea oil rigs.  

I find it absolutely inconceivable that someone would try to defend a global oil & gas business.
		
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But it is a solid argument. Companies operating within the EU are supposed to pay their taxes in the country any particular arm is operating in. For example, Shell Netherlands may have made â‚¬10m profit, and Shell UK might have made â‚¬5m loss. Shell Netherlands has to pay tax but Shell UK doesn't. 

Legally, you can't declare costs and profits in the countries they don't occur in in an effort to avoid taxes.

Shell, globally, might have made â‚¬500m profit but should only pay taxes in the countries those profits were made in. 

The media makes a big thing about the headline profit but never explains the legality of where costs and profits must be declared.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Just because it is legal, doesn't mean it is right or fair. 
And arguing that Shell deserves to pay no corporation tax in the UK because of how much tax it pays elsewhere isn't exactly a solid argument. Or how much it is going to cost for it to decommission its North Sea oil rigs.  

I find it absolutely inconceivable that someone would try to defend a global oil & gas business.
		
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I find it inconceivable that you dont understand that Legal means something is right.  If you bothered to check Shell paid $52 Billion tax in 2016.   Who do you think should pay decommissioning costs and if it's shell should they pay tax on that cost.   Just think about it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I find it inconceivable that you dont understand that Legal means something is right.  If you bothered to check Shell paid $52 Billion tax in 2016.   Who do you think should pay decommissioning costs and if it's shell should they pay tax on that cost.   Just think about it.
		
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Everyday's a school day, what exactly are they decommissioning? Why should or shouldn't shell pay tax on that cost?


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Just because it is legal, doesn't mean it is right or fair. 
And arguing that Shell deserves to pay no corporation tax in the UK because of how much tax it pays elsewhere isn't exactly a solid argument. Or how much it is going to cost for it to decommission its North Sea oil rigs.  

I find it absolutely inconceivable that someone would try to defend a global oil & gas business.
		
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Er....Rubbish!

Well, not all of it, but certainly most of it!

Taxation (or tax mitigation) is actually a 'market' that countries compete for! It's something where very large multi-national companies actually have more power than many governments - and some are quite prepared (even obliged!) to actively wield that power! Whether that's a good thing or not is irrelevant - it's simply a statement of the real world!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Everyday's a school day, what exactly are they decommissioning? Why should or shouldn't shell pay tax on that cost?
		
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They are decommissioning North Sea Oil and Gas Fields. No company pays tax on costs, the cost of running a business is not an asset but a liability.  Tax is due not on Gross profit but Net profit after all costs have been deducted and decommissioning Oil/gas fields is certainly a major cost.   What many people fail to consider is the massive amount of tax companies like this generate, all their employees pat tax on the wages they earn and the Company pays National Insurance for all these employees.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			They are decommissioning North Sea Oil and Gas Fields. No company pays tax on costs, the cost of running a business is not an asset but a liability.  Tax is due not on Gross profit but Net profit after all costs have been deducted and decommissioning Oil/gas fields is certainly a major cost.   What many people fail to consider is the massive amount of tax companies like this generate, all their employees pat tax on the wages they earn and the Company pays National Insurance for all these employees.
		
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Cheers :thup:


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## Hobbit (Jun 15, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Everyday's a school day, what exactly are they decommissioning? Why should or shouldn't shell pay tax on that cost?
		
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Get yourself to Hartlepool Paul and you'll see the North Sea's biggest platform being decommissioned. Brent field are slowly decommissioning their platforms now. A platform, typically, takes about 5 yrs to decomm.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Get yourself to Hartlepool Paul and you'll see the North Sea's biggest platform being decommissioned. Brent field are slowly decommissioning their platforms now. A platform, typically, takes about 5 yrs to decomm.
		
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Saw them when playing at Seaton Carew, just didn't understand the in/outs of cost.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I find it inconceivable that you dont understand that Legal means something is right.  If you bothered to check Shell paid $52 Billion tax in 2016.   Who do you think should pay decommissioning costs and if it's shell should they pay tax on that cost.   Just think about it.
		
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You think that everything that is legal is right? Unbelievable Jeff. I seriously hope you are joking. But I seriously doubt you are.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Er....Rubbish!

Well, not all of it, but certainly most of it!

Taxation (or tax mitigation) is actually a 'market' that countries compete for! It's something where very large multi-national companies actually have more power than many governments - and some are quite prepared (even obliged!) to actively wield that power! Whether that's a good thing or not is irrelevant - it's simply a statement of the real world!
		
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I can't quite seem to fathom why it is 'irrelevant' that global companies exercise their understanding of tax loop holes to pay less than they should. And I am amazed that people don't seem to have a problem with this. If an individual does it, they are vilified for avoiding tax. If a company does it, they are commended for being smart. Incredible.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			You think that everything that is legal is right? Unbelievable Jeff. I seriously hope you are joking. But I seriously doubt you are.
		
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Yes, that's correct, if it's legal it's OK. If we dont live by that rule then what do we do, make it up to suit ourselves? You are suffering from this populism going around that Business is evil and we would be better off without it, have you been listening to Corbyn?  I have explained to you the massive tax companies like Shell pay to the exchequer and the large number of jobs where tax and NI is generated. Business is what creates wealth in the country, without it we would be  impoverished.  Try thinking this through rather than making posts like the one above.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I can't quite seem to fathom why it is 'irrelevant' that global companies exercise their understanding of tax loop holes to pay less than they should. And I am amazed that people don't seem to have a problem with this. If an individual does it, they are vilified for avoiding tax. If a company does it, they are commended for being smart. Incredible.
		
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I doubt if you want to pay more tax than you have to.  There is a big difference between avoiding tax and evading tax.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, that's correct, if it's legal it's OK. If we dont live by that rule then what do we do, make it up to suit ourselves? You are suffering from this populism going around that Business is evil and we would be better off without it, have you been listening to Corbyn?  I have explained to you the massive tax companies like Shell pay to the exchequer and the large number of jobs where tax and NI is generated. Business is what creates wealth in the country, without it we would be  impoverished.  Try thinking this through rather than making posts like the one above.
		
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So all laws are good laws? Does that past laws that have now been changed or removed? i.e. they were right at the time but no longer relevant to today's society? So it was ok to own slaves? It was ok for it to be illegal to be gay? It was ok that same sex marriage was outlawed? Child labour was ok? Drug laws are absolutely ok, nothing wrong with any of them? The list is huge. 

I am actually not suffering from this populism that business is evil and we would be better of without it at all. You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the systems currently put in place are not fair and are only in the interest of the few at the expense of the many.

I have thought all of this through. I seriously doubt you have.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I doubt if you want to pay more tax than you have to.  There is a big difference between avoiding tax and evading tax.
		
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But I don't take advantage of any loop holes that allow me to pay less tax than I am supposed to. I don't avoid paying tax, companies do. 
Just because it is legal, does not make it fair.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			But I don't take advantage of any loop holes that allow me to pay less tax than I am supposed to. I don't avoid paying tax, companies do. 
Just because it is legal, does not make it fair.
		
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Wasting my time now trying to explain to you.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Wasting my time now trying to explain to you.
		
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But I don't need it explaining. I understand how the system works. I just don't believe in the system.


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## pendodave (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			So all laws are good laws? Does that past laws that have now been changed or removed? i.e. they were right at the time but no longer relevant to today's society? So it was ok to own slaves? It was ok for it to be illegal to be gay? It was ok that same sex marriage was outlawed? Child labour was ok? Drug laws are absolutely ok, nothing wrong with any of them? The list is huge. 

I am actually not suffering from this populism that business is evil and we would be better of without it at all. You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the systems currently put in place are not fair and are only in the interest of the few at the expense of the many.

I have thought all of this through. I seriously doubt you have.
		
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Agree with these sentiments 100%.

The wealthy and powerful are able to control government and the media to ensure that the rules continue to benefit themselves. Hence we end up (and continue with) the current situation.

The idea that the law and it's interpretation is somehow some perfect and unquestionable sacred text has been used by the few against the many before I think...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

pendodave said:



			Agree with these sentiments 100%.

The wealthy and powerful are able to control government and the media to ensure that the rules continue to benefit themselves. Hence we end up (and continue with) the current situation.

The idea that the law and it's interpretation is somehow some perfect and unquestionable sacred text has been used by the few against the many before I think...
		
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Continue with your social prejudices if you wish. The world is not perfect but the Law of the land is all we have to form our society around.  If you dont like it then do something other than moan on a Golf Forum.


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## bobmac (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			If you dont like it then do something other than moan on a Golf Forum.
		
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:rofl:


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I can't quite seem to fathom why it is 'irrelevant' that global companies exercise their understanding of tax loop holes to pay less than they should. And I am amazed that people don't seem to have a problem with this. If an individual does it, they are vilified for avoiding tax. If a company does it, they are commended for being smart. Incredible.
		
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I have no problem with any company or individual avoiding tax. However, that's very different to evading tax. One is legal whilst one isn't.

If a company doesn't use the system to avoid tax the company board are liable to the shareholders for mismanagement. Bearing in mind just about everyone's private pension fund is invested in blue chip companies, everyone has a vested interest in a company maximising its profits. 

Its up to the government to create a robust taxation system. If you want to criticise anyone for tax avoidance, not evasion, criticise the government.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I have no problem with any company or individual avoiding tax. However, that's very different to evading tax. One is legal whilst one isn't.

If a company doesn't use the system to avoid tax the company board are liable to the shareholders for mismanagement. Bearing in mind just about everyone's private pension fund is invested in blue chip companies, everyone has a vested interest in a company maximising its profits. 

Its up to the government to create a robust taxation system. If you want to criticise anyone for tax avoidance, not evasion, criticise the government.
		
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But that's what is wrong with the whole system. Countries are competing with each other to be the most attractive tax haven. It's a race to the bottom. Companies have too much power and they lean on governments, they do this globally. You can't tell me that global corporations are acting in the interest of the common man. 

Purely looking at shareholder value is a serious problem in society. It's short term and promotes incredibly bad behaviour.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Continue with your social prejudices if you wish. The world is not perfect but the Law of the land is all we have to form our society around.  If you dont like it then do something other than moan on a Golf Forum.
		
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What options does the common man have in affecting real change in the political system?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			What options does the common man have in affecting real change in the political system?
		
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You have a rather low opinion of yourself.  If you are passionate enough then get into politics and work at changing the law if you think it's wrong.  Otherwise you could try to understand the way the economy works so you may be able to form a more balanced view.   Or just stay as you are and complain on a Golf Forum.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			But that's what is wrong with the whole system. Countries are competing with each other to be the most attractive tax haven. It's a race to the bottom. Companies have too much power and they lean on governments, they do this globally. You can't tell me that global corporations are acting in the interest of the common man. 

*Purely looking at shareholder value is a serious problem in society. It's short term and promotes incredibly bad behaviour.*

Click to expand...

Someone has already explained to you that Company Directors have a duty to the shareholders to maximise profit within the legal framework.   It's not short term and it's not bad behavior, it's what creates national wealth and puts people in jobs.    What's the alternative, Borrowing more?


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You have a rather low opinion of yourself.  If you are passionate enough then get into politics and work at changing the law if you think it's wrong.  Otherwise you could try to understand the way the economy works so you may be able to form a more balanced view.   Or just stay as you are and complain on a Golf Forum.
		
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How ridiculous.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Someone has already explained to you that Company Directors have a duty to the shareholders to maximise profit within the legal framework.   It's not short term and it's not bad behavior, it's what creates national wealth and puts people in jobs.    What's the alternative, Borrowing more?
		
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Good grief. 
I am almost lost for words now SocketRocket. I am confident that you really don't have a clue what is really going on, how things really work and how most of the things you say are common opinion but not really true. 

I would also take a wild stab in the dark that you haven't read a single book on any of these topics and are just regurgitating things from the last 50 years.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Someone has already explained to you that Company Directors have a duty to the shareholders to maximise profit within the legal framework.   It's not short term and it's not bad behavior, it's what creates national wealth and puts people in jobs.    What's the alternative, Borrowing more?
		
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Not quite!

While it all has to be within a 'legal framework', the Company can (and in more and more cases does) specify policies that, will not maximise profit because it is committed to certain policies like the use of greener materials/processes!

Shareholders, of course, should be aware that such policies exist and are being pursued! In many cases, that's actually why shareholders invest in that company, as opposed to other ones with less earth-friendly policies!

Btw. I believe you are 'flogging a dead horse' debating the subject with LL!


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite!

While it all has to be within a 'legal framework', the Company can (and in more and more cases does) specify policies that, will not maximise profit because it is committed to certain policies like the use of greener materials/processes!

Shareholders, of course, should be aware that such policies exist and are being pursued! In many cases, that's actually why shareholders invest in that company, as opposed to other ones with less earth-friendly policies!

Btw. I believe you are 'flogging a dead horse' debating the subject with LL!
		
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Very kind of you to single me out Fh.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Good grief. 
I am almost lost for words now SocketRocket. I am confident that you really don't have a clue what is really going on, how things really work and how most of the things you say are common opinion but not really true. 

I would also take a wild stab in the dark that you haven't read a single book on any of these topics and are just regurgitating things from the last 50 years.
		
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OK then if you are going to call me out.  I am a retired Chief Executive Officer (MD) of a very successful Software company with many International offices that developed and sold Software Engineering solutions to many leading manufacturers throughout the World.  I have a Degree in Production Engineering and an MBA from the OU, I am also a Member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management.   So your wild stab in the dark is a little off course. I have read more books on the subject than I can remember.    Still lost for words?


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			OK then if you are going to call me out.  I am a retired Chief Executive Officer (MD) of a very successful Software company with many International offices that developed and sold Software Engineering solutions to many leading manufacturers throughout the World.  I have a Degree in Production Engineering and an MBA from the OU, I am also a Member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management.   So your wild stab in the dark is a little off course. I have read more books on the subject than I can remember.    Still lost for words?
		
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I am impressed with your credentials. Do you not see any inequalities in the current economic structure? Do you feel that it gives everyone a fair go at making it? And I'm not just talking about local or regional but also global? 
How long do you think the current ways of working (politically, economically) will be suitable? 

Current systems can't be considered acceptable surely? (And stop calling me Shirley), given the constant rising gulf between richest and poorest, unsustainable house price increases, the significant damage to the environment, personal debt levels rising to unsustainable levels that young people will struggle to ever get out from under, big business wielding so much power within the political sphere etc... the list is huge. 

It seems to be that responses aimed at me are explanations of the current system, I ama aware of how business works, I just don't agree that it actually works well at all. 

We are told we live in a capitalist, free market. 
If I borrow more than I can afford, run up huge debts in risky business practices and default on my loans, I end up bankrupt and in court. 
The banks do it and they are given a bailout. A socialist practice. 

If I create money from nowhere, I am done for fraud. 
If an accountant does it, he is cooking the books. 
But banks are legally allowed to do this on a daily basis. 
But because its legal, it must be fair. 

I just don't believe that the rules in place have been put there for the benefit of the society politicians are there to represent. They are created under influence from big business that have too much to lose. How can the common man compete against the very deep pockets of a global business that makes billions in profits? They can't.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			...I have read more books on the subject than I can remember....
		
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Someone told me that happens when you get older! Can't remember who of course! 

Yep! LL was probably correct! You are simply 'regurgitating things from the last 50 years' - *experience*!


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			...
I just don't believe that the rules in place have been put there for the benefit of the society politicians are there to represent. They are created under influence from big business that have too much to lose. How can the common man compete against the very deep pockets of a global business that makes billions in profits? They can't.
		
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Whether or not big business (or any other pressure group!!) has too much (or too little) influence over rules/laws simply determines the way you use your vote on the occasional opportunities where you personally have a bit of influence! Either that or go join a different 'pressure group' and convince others to 'join the revolution' (of whatever colour) and change the system!

But the error/opinion ridden drivel of the post I've quoted doesn't help your case!


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## SteveJay (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			If I borrow more than I can afford, run up huge debts in risky business practices and default on my loans, I end up bankrupt and in court. 
The banks do it and they are given a bailout. A socialist practice.
		
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Not any more - the rules of bail in have changed that after the crisis. That was a significant regulatory drive as a result of the crisis - avoiding the too big to fail issue, where governments had to bail out banks because the alternative would have been worse for the public and the economy.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Whether or not big business (or any other pressure group!!) has too much (or too little) influence over rules/laws simply determines the way you use your vote on the occasional opportunities where you personally have a bit of influence! Either that or go join a different 'pressure group' and convince others to 'join the revolution' (of whatever colour) and change the system!

But the error/opinion ridden drivel of the post I've quoted doesn't help your case!
		
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Thanks for sharing foxholer. Good to know that the main option for everyone globally is a vote in a FPTP general election or to join a pressure group. 

Thanks for ignoring all the questions about whether the system is broken or not. Really constructive.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SteveJay said:



			Not any more - the rules of bail in have changed that after the crisis. That was a significant regulatory drive as a result of the crisis - avoiding the too big to fail issue, where governments had to bail out banks because the alternative would have been worse for the public and the economy.
		
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How are the banks no longer 'too big to fail'?
I don't think there have actually been any real changes. What happens next time there is a global financial crisis? (It's inevitable there will be another one, question is only when)


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Thanks for sharing foxholer. Good to know that the main option for everyone globally is a vote in a FPTP general election or to join a pressure group. 

Thanks for ignoring all the questions about whether the system is broken or not. Really constructive.
		
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More errors/opinion! But, at least in the democratic society we are in, you are at least allowed to have and express one!


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			More errors/opinion! But, at least in the democratic society we are in, you are at least allowed to have and express one!
		
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Have a good weekend guys. Enjoy the golf.


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## SteveJay (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			How are the banks no longer 'too big to fail'?
I don't think there have actually been any real changes. What happens next time there is a global financial crisis? (It's inevitable there will be another one, question is only when)
		
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Errr...where do I start, you obviously don't know the details. Things have changed massively - increased capital requirements, regulatory regimes that require thousands of staff across the industry to ensure/demonstrate  compliance, bail in rules, ring fencing, centralised clearing etc. etc. but I won't waste my time going on.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I am impressed with your credentials. Do you not see any inequalities in the current economic structure? Do you feel that it gives everyone a fair go at making it? And I'm not just talking about local or regional but also global? 
How long do you think the current ways of working (politically, economically) will be suitable? 

Current systems can't be considered acceptable surely? (And stop calling me Shirley), given the constant rising gulf between richest and poorest, unsustainable house price increases, the significant damage to the environment, personal debt levels rising to unsustainable levels that young people will struggle to ever get out from under, big business wielding so much power within the political sphere etc... the list is huge. 

It seems to be that responses aimed at me are explanations of the current system, I ama aware of how business works, I just don't agree that it actually works well at all. 

We are told we live in a capitalist, free market. 
If I borrow more than I can afford, run up huge debts in risky business practices and default on my loans, I end up bankrupt and in court. 
The banks do it and they are given a bailout. A socialist practice. 

If I create money from nowhere, I am done for fraud. 
If an accountant does it, he is cooking the books. 
But banks are legally allowed to do this on a daily basis. 
But because its legal, it must be fair. 

I just don't believe that the rules in place have been put there for the benefit of the society politicians are there to represent. They are created under influence from big business that have too much to lose. How can the common man compete against the very deep pockets of a global business that makes billions in profits? They can't.
		
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Well! That's a rather big subject to give a detailed reply to.  By the way, I never called you Shirley?

I guess you have to consider if there is a better way for macro economics to develop.  The two big systems currently are one where market forces create the pull factor and one where the state creates a push factor.  OK, there are variations on the themes where certain sectors are state controlled and others market driven and this is the one we have evolved in the UK but in more recent times we have released many industries like Transport, Airospace, Steel, Utilities etc back into the private sector.  As you suggest there are also international influences on the way economies are regulated and the one we are currently a member of (The EU) create a great deal of regulation on the way organisations carry out their business. Many of the major economies do in fact have quite a high level of control and regulation over the way businesses operate.   What is important though is that business has a motivation to exist and flourish as without them how would we create the wealth we all rely on for our standard of living.  There is no such thing as a free meal.

You have mentioned a number of issues in your post and I apologise for not having the time to reply to all of them at the moment.   I will make some more comment when I can.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SteveJay said:



			Errr...where do I start, you obviously don't know the details. Things have changed massively - increased capital requirements, regulatory regimes that require thousands of staff across the industry to ensure/demonstrate  compliance, bail in rules, ring fencing, centralised clearing etc. etc. but I won't waste my time going on.
		
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sounds like you have a lot of faith in this. I'm sure no one has learnt their lesson from the 2007 financial crisis. The next one will be significantly worse.


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## londonlewis (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Well! That's a rather big subject to give a detailed reply to.  By the way, I never called you Shirley?

I guess you have to consider if there is a better way for macro economics to develop.  The two big systems currently are one where market forces create the pull factor and one where the state creates a push factor.  OK, there are variations on the themes where certain sectors are state controlled and others market driven and this is the one we have evolved in the UK but in more recent times we have released many industries like Transport, Airospace, Steel, Utilities etc back into the private sector.  As you suggest there are also international influences on the way economies are regulated and the one we are currently a member of (The EU) create a great deal of regulation on the way organisations carry out their business. Many of the major economies do in fact have quite a high level of control and regulation over the way businesses operate.   What is important though is that business has a motivation to exist and flourish as without them how would we create the wealth we all rely on for our standard of living.  There is no such thing as a free meal.

You have mentioned a number of issues in your post and I apologise for not having the time to reply to all of them at the moment.   I will make some more comment when I can.
		
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It was a Leslie Nielson airplane reference!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			It was a Leslie Nielson airplane reference!
		
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This may sound naive but how is that relevant?


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