# The cost of religion?



## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

HID and I were off to London to see the Georgia O'Keeffe exhibition at the Tate Modern so thought we'd have a pop round St Pauls Cathedral as its been many years since we last wandered round it

Cost of entry Â£32 for the two of us and that's a Â£4 saving as we're old gits - no chance of us paying that, would you?


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## RGDave (Oct 27, 2016)

Ouch, that is pricey. 

Tourist rates... no, I wouldn't either.


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 27, 2016)

nope


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 27, 2016)

Seem to remember Westminster Abbey was Â£18 each a few years ago. We didn't go in. I remember not too long ago when there was no charge at all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

Thread title is a bit confusing 

And it costs a lot of money for the upkeep of places like St Paul's Cathedral 

Yes would pay it and have done to see such a wonderful structure that is full of our nations history


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thread title is a bit confusing 

And it costs a lot of money for the upkeep of places like St Paul's Cathedral 

Yes would pay it and have done to see such a wonderful structure that is full of our nations history
		
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Good for you Phil and I'll be sure to run any titles by you first, next time


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## ger147 (Oct 27, 2016)

Was in Paris earlier this year and visited the Sacre Coeur Basilica, free entry...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Good for you Phil and I'll be sure to run any titles by you first, next time
		
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Talk about overreacting 

Put your toys back in the cot 

You asked if people would pay the entrance fee so when someone says they would and have you react like a child.


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Talk about overreacting 

Put your toys back in the cot 

You asked if people would pay the entrance fee so when someone says they would and have you react like a child.
		
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You got the reaction you were looking for


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			You got the reaction you were looking for
		
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I wasn't looking for any reaction - the title for me is confusing in relation to what the thread is about 

You asked a question and I answered - if you didn't want someone to answer it then don't ask in the first place


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasn't looking for any reaction - the title for me is confusing in relation to what the thread is about 

You asked a question and I answered - if you didn't want someone to answer it then don't ask in the first place
		
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Not only will I ask you first if my titles are ok I will make a note to myself not to post a question I don't want an answer to !


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## patricks148 (Oct 27, 2016)

which bit did you get to take home with you for that price???

 or does that make you  the new Dean of St Pauls ?


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			which bit did you get to take home with you for that price???

 or does that make you  the new Dean of St Pauls ?
		
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I didn't get as far as the ticket office so never found if there was a pew or two included in the deal


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## patricks148 (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I didn't get as far as the ticket office so never found if there was a pew or two included in the deal
		
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ticket office???? on a church?

I suppose its for Tourists, same up here.. Urquhart Castle is a small fortune now, not so long ago you could have bought the place cheaper than the entry fees are now.


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			ticket office???? on a church?

I suppose its for Tourists, same up here.. Urquhart Castle is a small fortune now, not so long ago you could have bought the place cheaper than the entry fees are now.
		
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I fully expected a fee and would have thought Â£5 to Â£7 each would have been right


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2016)

Imo entry to the Cathedral should be free for worship.

If you wish to see the crypts or go in to the dome then a small charge or contribution should be requested.

It's a church first, tourist attraction second.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

What if someone wanted to go in and pray, would they be charged Â£32.  I think Jesus had a way of dealing with people like that when he visited the Temple.

I do understand there are maintenance costs but shouldn't they be sought by donation?


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Imo entry to the Cathedral should be free for worship.

If you wish to see the crypts or go in to the dome then a small charge or contribution should be requested.

It's a church first, tourist attraction second.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			What if someone wanted to go in and pray, would they be charged Â£32.  I think Jesus had a way of dealing with people like that when he visited the Temple.

I do understand there are maintenance costs but shouldn't they be sought by donation?
		
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If anyone wanted to enter to worship then it was free


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What if someone wanted to go in and pray, would they be charged Â£32.  I think Jesus had a way of dealing with people like that when he visited the Temple.

I do understand there are maintenance costs but shouldn't they be sought by donation?
		
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*Why do we charge?
Last year, more than two million people came to St Paulâ€™s â€“ 1.2m came in free during worship, another 940,000 paid as sightseers.
At St Paulâ€™s we receive no money from the government, and as such, are fully responsible for raising all the income needed to operate.
We are both an active working church with four services each and every day (five on a Sunday) and an extremely popular visitor destination for people from all round the world.
With a busy staff to support a full schedule of services, concerts, recitals, debates and other events, and responsibility to maintain and enhance one of the worldâ€™s most iconic buildings, asking sightseers to pay for entry is a vital part of our annual income. Without this we would not be able to staff the building and galleries and be open for people to visit as they do.
However, we never have and never will charge a penny for worship. All our services are free and we welcome all people. There is also a chapel set aside for private prayer and contemplation throughout every day.
*

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-price-of-a-cathedral-and-how-deans-pay-it/


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Why do we charge?
Last year, more than two million people came to St Paulâ€™s â€“ 1.2m came in free during worship, another 940,000 paid as sightseers.
At St Paulâ€™s we receive no money from the government, and as such, are fully responsible for raising all the income needed to operate.
We are both an active working church with four services each and every day (five on a Sunday) and an extremely popular visitor destination for people from all round the world.
With a busy staff to support a full schedule of services, concerts, recitals, debates and other events, and responsibility to maintain and enhance one of the worldâ€™s most iconic buildings, asking sightseers to pay for entry is a vital part of our annual income. Without this we would not be able to staff the building and galleries and be open for people to visit as they do.
However, we never have and never will charge a penny for worship. All our services are free and we welcome all people. There is also a chapel set aside for private prayer and contemplation throughout every day.
*

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-price-of-a-cathedral-and-how-deans-pay-it/

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the words money grabbing [children without married parents] come to mind.
the church as a whole has more money than it could ever spend ,they are just ripping people off ,much like any other business that relys in public donation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			the words money grabbing [children without married parents] come to mind.
the church as a whole has more money than it could ever spend ,they are just ripping people off ,much like any other business that relys in public donation.
		
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Maybe you didn't read the article where is said that many cathedrals are running about even with others at a deficit. It was only a couple years ago they had to spend Â£40mil on the catherdral plus the daily costs of over Â£20k a day 

I'm guessing the generalisations you are posting are all fully backed up somewhere ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe you didn't read the article where is said that many cathedrals are running about even with others at a deficit. It was only a couple years ago they had to spend Â£40mil on the catherdral plus the daily costs of over Â£20k a day 

I'm guessing the generalisations you are posting are all fully backed up somewhere ?
		
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Sorry Phil, it's Cof E and the C of E has assets worth 4 Billion

The Church of England's income is bigger than the turnover of McDonald's in Britain, 

Its income was Â£1.41billion in 2013 â€“ beating the Â£1.37billion McDonald's earned here, and three times larger than Starbucks' figures.

I have no issue with them looking after their money, but church's are not there to make money per say.


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 27, 2016)

are you for real ?
 the church own vast amounts of land and property that would easily cover any refurbishment needed on any church in the uk .
they just play on peoples generosity to cover the cost so they dont have to .like i said earlier money grabbers.and all at the publics expense .


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2016)

Must not post in religious threads...

Must resist...

Charging to go into a church? Really?


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 27, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Phil, it's Cof E and the C of E has assets worth 4 Billion

The Church of England's income is bigger than the turnover of McDonald's in Britain, 

Its income was Â£1.41billion in 2013 â€“ beating the Â£1.37billion McDonald's earned here, and three times larger than Starbucks' figures.
		
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:thup::thup::thup:


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Must not post in religious threads...

Must resist...

Charging to go into a church? Really?
		
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c`mon Bri you know you want to lol.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 27, 2016)

It is important to understand how much it costs to maintain the fabric of a building such as St Paul's , yes it is expensive,  but travel to any other major world heritage site and you will find similar fees.
Stonehenge costs Â£40 for a family ticket
Lincoln Cathedral and castle is Â£16 each
Eiffel Tower is 17 euros per adult

It's how it is


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			c`mon Bri you know you want to lol.
		
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Come on Brian we all want to hear it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Phil, it's Cof E and the C of E has assets worth 4 Billion

The Church of England's income is bigger than the turnover of McDonald's in Britain, 

Its income was Â£1.41billion in 2013 â€“ beating the Â£1.37billion McDonald's earned here, and three times larger than Starbucks' figures.

I have no issue with them looking after their money, but church's are not there to make money per say.
		
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The church also spend more than they make - the same Daily Mail article you got your figures from show that as well - there is no profit being.made - income is spent on keeping the church's going to give people somewhere for solace.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			are you for real ?
 the church own vast amounts of land and property that would easily cover any refurbishment needed on any church in the uk .
they just play on peoples generosity to cover the cost so they dont have to .like i said earlier money grabbers.and all at the publics expense .
		
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Do you actually check facts ?

https://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/funding.aspx


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It is important to understand how much it costs to maintain the fabric of a building such as St Paul's , yes it is expensive,  but travel to any other major world heritage site and you will find similar fees.
Stonehenge costs Â£40 for a family ticket
Lincoln Cathedral and castle is Â£16 each
Eiffel Tower is 17 euros per adult

It's how it is
		
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If they charged say Â£7 per adult do you think that many more people would pay and they would also likely make more money in (I assume they have) the compulsory gift shop?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The church also spend more than they make - the same Daily Mail article you got your figures from show that as well - there is no profit being.made - income is spent on keeping the church's going to give people somewhere for solace.
		
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They are the main shareholder in The Metro Centre up here, cash some investments in,


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The church also spend more than they make - the same Daily Mail article you got your figures from show that as well - there is no profit being.made - income is spent on keeping the church's going to give people somewhere for solace.
		
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You are aware that the Church owns large tracts of land in many rural areas and cities.

Your hissing up hill with this one Phil. 

If the Church rationalised their holdings in line with their current footfall they could spend billions and billions on worthy causes.

Charging to go into a place of worship is ---- must not post in religious threads!


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You are aware that the Church owns large tracts of land in many rural areas and cities.

Your hissing up hill with this one Phil. 

If the Church rationalised their holdings in line with their current footfall they could spend billions and billions on worthy causes.

Charging to go into a place of worship is ---- must not post in religious threads!
		
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Well said Brian. 

As an agnostic I accept that paying an entrance fee is probably justified, but was just staggered at the amount in question.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			If they charged say Â£7 per adult do you think that many more people would pay and they would also likely make more money in (I assume they have) the compulsory gift shop?
		
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I don't know, sure some people will be put off paying that amount, but the fact that so many are willing to pay that much, means that they probably have it about right.

Those who decide these things will have looked at all sides.

These buildings are expected to stand on their own financially, if you are a tourist, visiting london, there are certain places you have to visit,  same as Paris , New York etc 
No difference


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 27, 2016)

Aw I thought this was going to be a philosophical discussion about bigotry, sectarianism, hypocrisy and the root of all evil in the world.

Yeah, pricey though!


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Aw I thought this was going to be a philosophical discussion about bigotry, sectarianism, hypocrisy and the root of all evil in the world.

Yeah, pricey though!
		
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it is its about religion,the cause of more wars than anything else and continually preying on the public to fund their ways.


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I don't know, sure some people will be put off paying that amount, but the fact that so many are willing to pay that much, means that they probably have it about right.

Those who decide these things will have looked at all sides.

These buildings are expected to stand on their own financially, if you are a tourist, visiting london, there are certain places you have to visit,  same as Paris , New York etc 
No difference
		
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Two weeks ago we visited the Natural History Museum, today the Tate Modern, no entry charge for either, except a charge for the special exhibition that we went especially to see. They survive amazingly well but a church with billions in cash and assets charge 2 senior citizens Â£32.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 27, 2016)

And regarding the Sacre Coeur in Paris
Yes it's free to get in, but they charge for the dome and the crypt
Although it is only 8 euros per adult.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You are aware that the Church owns large tracts of land in many rural areas and cities.

Your hissing up hill with this one Phil. 

If the Church rationalised their holdings in line with their current footfall they could spend billions and billions on worthy causes.

Charging to go into a place of worship is ---- must not post in religious threads!
		
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The people that are being charged are the ones that are seeing the building as a tourist attraction with many historic elements to it - the people going to use it as a church and a place of worship are entering for free. 

Building or historic nature both religious and non religious charge entrance fees all over the world - not just to look for profit but to ensure the upkeep of said attraction. 

Yes the church and indeed also the crown do have vast amounts of land that could be sold of for millions to have more and more houses or wind farms or solar panels built on instead of lovely animal dwelling green countryside.


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## RGDave (Oct 27, 2016)

Tourists should pay double.
Anyone with a UK address should get in for a fiver. 

Increased income, less upset for for all. Win win.


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Aw I thought this was going to be a philosophical discussion about bigotry, sectarianism, hypocrisy and the root of all evil in the world.

Yeah, pricey though!
		
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To be fair Karen, LiverproofPhil has already told me off for the title!


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Two weeks ago we visited the Natural History Museum, today the Tate Modern, no entry charge for either, except a charge for the special exhibition that we went especially to see. They survive amazingly well but a church with billions in cash and assets charge 2 senior citizens Â£32.
		
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Chris
Museums are publically funded,  its government policy.
You are comparing apples with oranges

It's free to worship there, but if you are there as a tourist, expect to pay tourist rates


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Two weeks ago we visited the Natural History Museum, today the Tate Modern, no entry charge for either, except a charge for the special exhibition that we went especially to see. They survive amazingly well but a church with billions in cash and assets charge 2 senior citizens Â£32.
		
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Both the Tate Modern and NHM are funded from the government through the DCMS - that helps them survive


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 27, 2016)

Omg I'm agreeing with LP
Nurse my pills


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## RGDave (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Karen, LiverproofPhil has already told me off for the title!
		
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It was misleading. I expected an exposÃ© on the relative fiscal merits of non-conformist Maltese Judaism.

tut tut....


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Karen, LiverproofPhil has already told me off for the title!
		
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No one has told you off -but it's not often a 60 year old man needs a dummy or tissue to stop his bottom lip quivering


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Karen, LiverproofPhil has already told me off for the title!
		
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Yeah sorry Chris, I was making a cheap tongue in cheek dig at religion rather than having a go at you.


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yeah sorry Chris, I was making a cheap tongue in cheek dig at religion rather than having a go at you. 

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Apology accepted Karen you really need to learn the game - disagree with every post and insist on proof !


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Chris
Museums are publically funded,  its government policy.
You are comparing apples with oranges

It's free to worship there, but if you are there as a tourist, expect to pay tourist rates
		
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A fair view Phil, and I did know the funding method. I've said several times that I expected to pay but feel the amount is way over my expectations. If you think it's "the going rate" I don't have any problem but value for money I'd rather go to many other places and spend my hard earned money


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			HID and I were off to London to see the Georgia O'Keeffe exhibition at the Tate Modern so thought we'd have a pop round St Pauls Cathedral as its been many years since we last wandered round it

Cost of entry Â£32 for the two of us and that's a Â£4 saving as we're old gits - no chance of us paying that, would you?
		
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We visited St Pauls for first time earlier this year - we bought on-line for Â£27 (I think) each.  Expensive but I thought it worth it as once in you didn't have to pay for anything else - and it is a fabulous building.

Though I think your Post title may be inaccurate as I believe you can get in free if you are visiting for religious reasons rather than as a sightseer - though not 100% sure of that - but that is the case with many churches and cathedrals


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			the words money grabbing [children without married parents] come to mind.
*the church as a whole* has more money than it could ever spend ,they are just ripping people off ,much like any other business that relys in public donation.
		
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which church would that be?  I can assure you that my church does not have more money than it could spend.  The CoE and Catholic church might have - but I think you'll find that Presbyterian/Protestant churches are not awash with cash.


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## chrisd (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We visited St Pauls for first time earlier this year - we bought on-line for Â£27 (I think) each.  Expensive but I thought it worth it as once in you didn't have to pay for anything else - and it is a fabulous building.

Though I think your Post title may be inaccurate as I believe you can get in free if you are visiting for religious reasons rather than as a sightseer - though not 100% sure of that - but that is the case with many churches and cathedrals
		
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I posted earlier that you can get in free to worship but that's never going to happen with me. The post title surely doesn't have to be anything other than an enticer to read the thread? The papers do it all the time!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			it is its about religion,the cause of more wars than anything else and continually preying on the public to fund their ways.
		
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I don't think you actually realise how much churches provide to and for their communities.  Nonetheless I like the pun about praying on the pubic - because yes we do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I posted earlier that you can get in free to worship but that's never going to happen with me. The post title surely doesn't have to be anything other than an enticer to read the thread? The papers do it all the time!
		
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No probs - I wasn't actually moaning about the title of the post, @FD misunderstood also so not alone.  

However I do take some issue with posters glibly and loosely referring to 'the church' as if there is only one 'church'.  There isn't - there are many - we are not all the same - indeed we are very different.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 27, 2016)

chrisd said:



			HID and I were off to London to see the Georgia O'Keeffe exhibition at the Tate Modern so thought we'd have a pop round St Pauls Cathedral as its been many years since we last wandered round it

Cost of entry Â£32 for the two of us and that's a Â£4 saving as we're old gits - no chance of us paying that, would you?
		
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Old timer, did you go up by trainâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..

https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/offers--days-out/offers/2for1/

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/offers-and-destinations/2for1/

Mrs BiM & I did St. Pauls on this via South West trains.

You're welcome. :thup:  And sort the title out will youâ€¦â€¦..


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## MegaSteve (Oct 27, 2016)

Setting aside the publicly subsidised attractions cost of entry to St. Pauls is on a par with privately run attractions like Madame Tussauds at about Â£30 a pop or more...


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## Papas1982 (Oct 28, 2016)

Sme of the accusations/defences struggle to add up for me?

Do we judge it as "the church" and if so include its costs as their overall assets and costs. Which according to the google link have increased year on year. Albeit profit (should a church make profit) has dropped. 
Or we accept that it runs as a business as was suggestion for stand alone buildings such as this. If so, then with almost a million visitors a year, and daily costs of 20k. They are making 20k profit a day. 

That seems ridiculous to me. 

That said, I'd not go in their if it were three. So for that reason, the price doesn't really bother me. If you're a tourist and willing to get mugged for that fee. Then good luck to you.


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The people that are being charged are the ones that are seeing the building as a tourist attraction with many historic elements to it - the people going to use it as a church and a place of worship are entering for free. 

Building or historic nature both religious and non religious charge entrance fees all over the world - not just to look for profit but to ensure the upkeep of said attraction. 

Yes the church and indeed also the crown do have vast amounts of land that could be sold of for millions to have more and more houses or wind farms or solar panels built on instead of lovely animal dwelling green countryside.
		
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Aw, lovely animal dwelling green countryside... how nice. Playing the emotional card is a poor substitute for a good discussion. Selling the farm land to a tenant farmer means it stays green. Selling the freehold of a shop to the tenant means it stays a shop. Investing the money into blue chip companies guarantees a return that will fund a free welcome into a Church.

I appreciate we won't agree on this as I'm coming from a religious standpoint that saw Jesus throw the Philistines from the Church for making money in the building. It's a principle I'm arguing. The Church can make money in other ways but I fundamentally disagree with being charged to visit one irrespective of why someone has visited.


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## chrisd (Oct 28, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Old timer, did you go up by trainâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..

https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/offers--days-out/offers/2for1/

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/offers-and-destinations/2for1/

Mrs BiM & I did St. Pauls on this via South West trains.

You're welcome. :thup:  And sort the title out will youâ€¦â€¦.. 

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We travelled on our old gits railcard and only decided to look at St Pauls whilst en route. I'm trying to think of a new title!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Aw, lovely animal dwelling green countryside... how nice. Playing the emotional card is a poor substitute for a good discussion. Selling the farm land to a tenant farmer means it stays green. Selling the freehold of a shop to the tenant means it stays a shop. Investing the money into blue chip companies guarantees a return that will fund a free welcome into a Church.

I appreciate we won't agree on this as I'm coming from a religious standpoint that saw Jesus throw the Philistines from the Church for making money in the building. It's a principle I'm arguing. The Church can make money in other ways but I fundamentally disagree with being charged to visit one irrespective of why someone has visited.
		
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For me I just view them as historic buildings with wonderful artefacts inside to see that need a great deal of money to upkeep which they have to self finance 

People travel from all over the world to visit London and its attractions and just as we go all over the world we are required to pay an entrance fee which will go towards keeping the building a wonderful attraction for visitors - same with Westminster Abbey which I think is about Â£20 a ticket but is full of history.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me I just view them as historic buildings with wonderful artefacts inside to see that need a great deal of money to upkeep which they have to self finance 

People travel from all over the world to visit London and its attractions and just as we go all over the world we are required to pay an entrance fee which will go towards keeping the building a wonderful attraction for visitors - same with Westminster Abbey which I think is about Â£20 a ticket but is full of history.
		
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That's the problem though Phil, if it was a former stately home or former bank etc I'd totally agree with you, it's not though, it's a Church, a working place of worship and as Hobbit says, from a religious point of view it's just wrong.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 28, 2016)

Not sure the amount of money the people who own the attraction is relevant. I'm sure Disney is not short of a dollar or two but it costs plenty to go there. 

If you want to use it as a place of worship it is free . If you want to see it as a tourist attraction it costs the going rate that they can get away with. As all tourist attractions do. 

I'd of thought all the tories on here would approve of such entrepreneurship.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			They are the main shareholder in The Metro Centre up here, cash some investments in,
		
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Not for a long time but they still own part of it. Their smaller share now earns them more than their majority share a few years ago. Basically a professional retail company bought it out and ran it properly. My wife use to work on the management side. She always found them very friendly and polite but for clear reasons, they were not sharp at running a business. It makes the church a very tidy stack.

If they cashed it in their income would cease. Better to keep a steady flow than one large surge which eventually runs out.

Back to the point. Some fee is okay with me, it must cost a fortune to run St Pauls and a few quid from everyone would add up. That amount sounds excessive but then you don't have to pay it. If you really want to pray somewhere then there are lots of other options. Most go round it as a tourist attraction and it is on that basis that it gets judged.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure the amount of money the people who own the attraction is relevant. I'm sure Disney is not short of a dollar or two but it costs plenty to go there. 

If you want to use it as a place of worship it is free . If you want to see it as a tourist attraction it costs the going rate that they can get away with. As all tourist attractions do. 

I'd of thought all the tories on here would approve of such entrepreneurship.
		
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To me it's the difference between a private profit making organisation and a Religion, I'm yet to see Disney asking the community to run a cake stall to fund a new roof on Space Mountain.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which church would that be?  I can assure you that my church does not have more money than it could spend.  The CoE and Catholic church might have - but I think you'll find that Presbyterian/Protestant churches are not awash with cash.
		
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Church of Scotland worth over half a billion and owns over 4,000 acres in Scotland not on the scale of RC or CofE granted,  but not exactly on their knees either.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 28, 2016)

Just playing devil's advocate here......

If it is OK to charge a fee for St Pauls cathedral, at what point does the church draw the line and stop charging? Charge for ALL cathedrals? Only the big ones? All churches right down to local village ones??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Church of Scotland worth over half a billion and owns over 4,000 acres in Scotland not on the scale of RC or CofE granted,  but not exactly on their knees either.
		
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No - not on it's knees - but that figure will include the value of all of it's property - and for starters, with 1500 parishes that's a lot of church buildings, halls and manses.  And as the church owns all of these properties (and not the congregations) it is the church that has have the central funds to help the congregation maintain and improve all of that property, and to continue to fund all the overseas mission work it does.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Just playing devil's advocate here......

If it is OK to charge a fee for St Pauls cathedral, at what point does the church draw the line and stop charging? Charge for ALL cathedrals? Only the big ones? All churches right down to local village ones??
		
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Most churches will ask visitors for a contribution - I always give at least a couple of quid - even if I just pop in for 5mins.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - not on it's knees - but that figure will include the value of all of it's property - and for starters, with 1500 parishes that's a lot of church buildings, halls and manses.  And as the church owns all of these properties (and not the congregations) it is the church that has have the central funds to help the congregation maintain and improve all of that property, and to continue to fund all the overseas mission work it does.
		
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That's the stock answer for all religions, I'm intelligent enough to realise they all need massive amounts of income to look after their estates and wages etc, it's when we get the cries of poverty it sticks in my throat.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Most churches will ask visitors for a contribution - I always give at least a couple of quid - even if I just pop in for 5mins.
		
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But that's the issue, why are they always asking and do you(general term) want to give money or is it you're expected to give money.

Same as the RC church, you almost felt judged at times on whether you put coins or paper on the collection plate.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Most churches will ask visitors for a contribution - I always give at least a couple of quid - even if I just pop in for 5mins.
		
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That's fine by me because a voluntary contribution is quite different from a fixed admission charge.


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## bobmac (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			However I do take some issue with posters glibly and loosely referring to 'the church' as if there is only one 'church'.  There isn't - there are many - we are not all the same - indeed we are very different.
		
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If there is one almighty God, why does he/she need more than one 'church'?


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## ger147 (Oct 28, 2016)

bobmac said:



			If there is one almighty God, why does he/she need more than one 'church'?
		
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A holiday home?


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 28, 2016)

bobmac said:



			If there is one almighty God, why does he/she need more than one 'church'?
		
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And likewise,why does each religion claim to be "the" one religion?

Can only feel religion is nothing but a comforter for the old and nothing but  a source of conflict no matter in the World you are.


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## chrisd (Oct 28, 2016)

My only issue was how much they charge, not whether they charge and they do charge at most Cathedrals. I live 12 miles from Canterbury and they certainly charge there.


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## drewster (Oct 28, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And likewise,why does each religion claim to be "the" one religion?

Can only feel religion is nothing but a comforter for the old and nothing but  a source of conflict no matter in the World you are.
		
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Can't help but agree Sir. You can live your life by a set of values and morals based around goodwill to all men without believing in any kind of god . I think it's officially called being a "humanist".


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## Robobum (Oct 28, 2016)

chrisd said:



			My only issue was how much they charge, not whether they charge and they do charge at most Cathedrals. I live 12 miles from Canterbury and they certainly charge there.
		
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I don't want to go over old ground regarding the thread title. But I must question your use of font Throughout this thread


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## chrisd (Oct 28, 2016)

Robobum said:



			I don't want to go over old ground regarding the thread title. But I must question your use of font Throughout this thread
		
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I never got to see the font - we didn't go in !! :lol:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 28, 2016)

Robobum said:



			I don't want to go over old ground regarding the thread title. But I must question your use of font Throughout this thread
		
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chrisd said:



			I never got to see the font - we didn't go in !! :lol:
		
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:rofl:


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## Robobum (Oct 28, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I never got to see the font - we didn't go in !! :lol:
		
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&#128514; 

Extra couple of quid for the bird bath?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 28, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I never got to see the font - we didn't go in !! :lol:
		
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But at least the font of all knowledge has kept you right on your thread....


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## chrisd (Oct 28, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			But at least the font of all knowledge has kept you right on your thread.... 

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Plenty of preaching too :smirk:


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 28, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Plenty of preaching too :smirk:
		
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Shame he cant discover the fountain of youth


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## Tashyboy (Oct 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Why do we charge?
Last year, more than two million people came to St Paulâ€™s â€“ 1.2m came in free during worship, another 940,000 paid as sightseers.
At St Paulâ€™s we receive no money from the government, and as such, are fully responsible for raising all the income needed to operate.
We are both an active working church with four services each and every day (five on a Sunday) and an extremely popular visitor destination for people from all round the world.
With a busy staff to support a full schedule of services, concerts, recitals, debates and other events, and responsibility to maintain and enhance one of the worldâ€™s most iconic buildings, asking sightseers to pay for entry is a vital part of our annual income. Without this we would not be able to staff the building and galleries and be open for people to visit as they do.
However, we never have and never will charge a penny for worship. All our services are free and we welcome all people. There is also a chapel set aside for private prayer and contemplation throughout every day.
*

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-price-of-a-cathedral-and-how-deans-pay-it/

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Seeing as the Church of England is worth more than Starbucks or McDonalds, no it should not be charging for an entry fee, well at least an extortionate fee. Oops already posted.
The best cathedral I have seen is the Duomo in Milan, it does not charge a cent to get in, unless you want to go in the crypt of onto the roof which is stunning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			That's the stock answer for all religions, I'm intelligent enough to realise they all need massive amounts of income to look after their estates and wages etc, it's when we get the cries of poverty it sticks in my throat.
		
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It depends who you get the cry from.  And not sure what sort of pleading of poverty you are referring to - maybe that which means that it costs Â£30 to visit St Pauls?

My own church has just embarked upon a major redevelopment project for our halls, rooms, kitchens, toilets etc.  Our facilities are used intensively by the community, non-church organisations and a wide variety of groups, and our 100yr old facilities are knacked.  We need to bring them into the 21st century.  

What we have is very much a community facility (we ourselves don't actually use our facilities that much). As a congregation we need to raise Â£150,000 - and as we can't do that ourselves we will be going to the community for their help.  Are we pleading poverty?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			But that's the issue, why are they always asking and do you(general term) want to give money or is it you're expected to give money.

Same as the RC church, you almost felt judged at times on whether you put coins or paper on the collection plate.
		
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They are asking because the congregation is expected to run and fund general maintenance of the church buildings.  

The RC church is a very different beast with a historically very different attitude towards giving - it was one of the main reasons for the reformation!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

bobmac said:



			If there is one almighty God, why does he/she need more than one 'church'?
		
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All christian churches believe in the 'one holy catholic church' (nothing to to with Roman Catholicism).  But within the context of that and biblical teachings, various denominations believe different things to be the most important, and some are very closely aligned.  So, for instance, the URC came out of a union of the Presbyterian Church of England and the Congregational Church in England and Wales.  This was possible because the liturgies of these churches were closely aligned.  And on an ongoing basis the URC and Methodist churches are closely aligned as their liturgies are close - in fact in many communities where congregations have shrunk, the URC and Methodist churches join up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And likewise,why does each religion claim to be "the" one religion?

Can only feel religion is nothing but a comforter for the old and nothing but  a source of conflict no matter in the World you are.
		
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On your first question - I am thinking simply that to have a belief and a faith then you have to believe in something pretty much absolutely.  And that is OK unless or until one religion tries to impose itself on another.

I disagree with your second point - though yes - it has been a source of conflict - but that is the doing of man not the religion.  I believe that we all need some form of spirituality in our life.  And for those having a religious belief that spiritual support is provided through their faith in that belief.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

drewster said:



			Can't help but agree Sir. You can live your life by a set of values and morals based around goodwill to all men without believing in any kind of god . I think it's officially called being a "humanist".
		
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Indeed you can.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 28, 2016)

Church of England should pay for the upkeep. The idea that people should pay for the Church of England`s advertising is madness, someones making bank. No wonder Christianity is in decline. 

You would have to pay me Â£32 to go in though... not my cup of tea.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Church of England should pay for the upkeep. 

You would have to pay me Â£32 to go in though... not my cup of tea.
		
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You are alright then.  

That said it is a fascinating place - the Whispering Gallery really does work - and the climb up inside the dome and the view you get from the top are awesome - and the graves of the famous in the crypt.  

And just to note that the best deal I can find for The Shard on the day is Â£62 for two - in advance it's Â£52.  So basically the same pricing as St Paul's.  And for that you get a view.  

With St Paul's you get a lot, lot more than just a view


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## Alex1975 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are alright then.  

That said it is a fascinating place - the Whispering Gallery really does work - and the climb up inside the dome and the view you get from the top are awesome - and the graves of the famous in the crypt.  

And just to note that the best deal I can find for The Shard on the day is Â£62 for two - in advance it's Â£52.  So basically the same pricing as St Paul's.  And for that you get a view.  

With St Paul's you get a lot, lot more than just a view
		
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You are into it hu?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			You are into it hu?
		
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Oh yes - I love architecture and history - putting aside the religious stuff (as it happens for my Protestant mind St Pauls is way too fancy and gilded as a church  )


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 28, 2016)

In Barcelona I visited the sagrida familia (spelling?). Don't remember what they charged but there was a cost. A very interesting building to visit and I didn't grudge paying. Of course they were still trying to scrape up the cash to finish it...

I particularly liked the stained glass windows and the giant parachuting Jesus!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh yes - I love architecture and history - putting aside the religious stuff (as it happens for my Protestant mind St Pauls is way too fancy and gilded as a church  )
		
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St Pauls is stunning , as is Westminster Abbey - there are some cracking churches etc in Europe - in Cyprus there were some spectacular historic buildings - lots of history.

Mykkos Monestry was full or artefacts from thousands of years back and through the Persian Times

Think it was about Â£20 to go in - just a bit more expensive than St Paul's


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 28, 2016)

Sagrada Familia. Totally bonkers but glorious. Worth every penny, but watch out some horror doesn't pick your pocket whilst you are looking up. Essential visit at some stage in your life.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It depends who you get the cry from.  And not sure what sort of pleading of poverty you are referring to - maybe that which means that it costs Â£30 to visit St Pauls?

My own church has just embarked upon a major redevelopment project for our halls, rooms, kitchens, toilets etc.  Our facilities are used intensively by the community, non-church organisations and a wide variety of groups, and our 100yr old facilities are knacked.  We need to bring them into the 21st century.  

What we have is very much a community facility (we ourselves don't actually use our facilities that much). As a congregation we need to raise Â£150,000 - and as we can't do that ourselves we will be going to the community for their help.  Are we pleading poverty?
		
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If it's a community facility i have no issue with you charging people to hire it, that makes sense, but if the Council run a sports hall then they fund the maintenance not the members, why are the congregation raising the money, if your building needs it, central coffers should be paying.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			If it's a community facility i have no issue with you charging people to hire it, that makes sense, but if the Council run a sports hall then they fund the maintenance not the members, why are the congregation raising the money, if your building needs it, central coffers should be paying.
		
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The council also charge people to use the hall and use money given from the government and income from charges and rent from people using the hall - money doesn't appear from nowhere - it will all come from our pockets in some way 

Central Coffers within churches are made up mainly from assests as opposed to a big pot of money hidden somewhere that they can all dip into. 

We will all benefit in some way from these historic buildings - whether that be from the tourist industry which just keeps growing , or a place where people can learn about our past or just somewhere for people to take time out and to reflect. The UKs history and heritage is very important to our lives and none of it comes free - any church maybe be rich in assests but they need a lot of funding to provide the services they do and it's only fair that people that use the facilities help fund the upkeep.

But as with everything - there is the choice not to pay and visit these sites if people don't agree with having to pay. 

Â£16 - Â£18 to go into St Paul's and be amazed at all the history inside for me was money well spent - for others it won't be


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Seeing as the Church of England is worth more than Starbucks or McDonalds, no it should not be charging for an entry fee, well at least an extortionate fee. Oops already posted.
The best cathedral I have seen is the Duomo in Milan, it does not charge a cent to get in, unless you want to go in the crypt of onto the roof which is stunning.
		
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I think Salisbury is the loveliest of Cathedrals, it is the only medieval  one in the UK that was built completely in one period.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The council also charge people to use the hall and use money given from the government and income from charges and rent from people using the hall - money doesn't appear from nowhere - it will all come from our pockets in some way 

Central Coffers within churches are made up mainly from assests as opposed to a big pot of money hidden somewhere that they can all dip into. 

We will all benefit in some way from these historic buildings - whether that be from the tourist industry which just keeps growing , or a place where people can learn about our past or just somewhere for people to take time out and to reflect. The UKs history and heritage is very important to our lives and none of it comes free - any church maybe be rich in assests but they need a lot of funding to provide the services they do and it's only fair that people that use the facilities help fund the upkeep.

But as with everything - there is the choice not to pay and visit these sites if people don't agree with having to pay. 

Â£16 - Â£18 to go into St Paul's and be amazed at all the history inside for me was money well spent - for others it won't be
		
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I get that Phil, but when you read thinks like the Church of Scotland losing 40+ Million during the banking crisis imo opinion certain institutions shouldn't be playing the stock market, SILH's place of Worship needs Â£150,000.00 for essential works, this isn't a tourist place, they hire the hall out, but I woukd suggest it's going to take a lot of WI or Tea Parties to raise that amount and the people worrying about raising that money isn't the Church Elders it'll be the man and woman in the street who probably contribute every week as it is now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I get that Phil, but when you read thinks like the Church of Scotland losing 40+ Million during the banking crisis imo opinion certain institutions shouldn't be playing the stock market, SILH's place of Worship needs Â£150,000.00 for essential works, this isn't a tourist place, they hire the hall out, but I woukd suggest it's going to take a lot of WI or Tea Parties to raise that amount and the people worrying about raising that money isn't the Church Elders it'll be the man and woman in the street who probably contribute every week as it is now.
		
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This is true - though we have given ourselves 5 yrs to raise the money.  The church will contribute on top of that as the overall cost is a lot more (it's a complete knock-down and rebuild - leaving just the original church and old hall - though the latter might still go) and we cannot expect central funds to pay it all - it just couldn't - and that's not the way churches work.  

If we want to do something it is up to us to make it happen, but our membership of maybe 150 can't to it alone.  And so we launch our project with faith and a believe that we can do it.  And we will.  But we need the community involved.  So lots of fundraising events - I'm going to be running a golf day at my club sometime in the new year - hopefully getting local business to sponsor and enter teams.  And I'm doing the Immortal memory and Reply on behalf of the Ladies on our Burns Supper in Jan.

And in 5 yrs - god willing - we'll have lovely new halls and facilities that the whole town can use and enjoy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is true - though we have given ourselves 5 yrs to raise the money.  The church will contribute on top of that as the overall cost is a lot more (it's a knock-down and rebuild) and we cannot expect central funds to pay it all - it just couldn't and that's not the way churches work.  If we want to do something it is up to us to make it happen , but our membership of maybe 150 can't to it alone.  And so we launch our project with faith and a believe that we can do it.  And we will.  But we need the community involved.  So lots of fundraising events - I'm going to be running a golf day at my club sometime in the new year - hopefully getting local business to sponsor and enter teams.

And in 5 yrs - god willing - we'll have lovely new halls and facilities that the whole town can use and enjoy.
		
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I wish you all the best and hope you reach your target.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 28, 2016)

If you want to go in for a few words with the person upstairs no charge.... 
If you want to go in for a look that'll cost you..

Any different from putting your hard earnt into the collection pots constantly being waved in your face whilst the CEO's of the charities are often on six figure salaries...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I wish you all the best and hope you reach your target.
		
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Maybe I'll see if anyone fancies putting together a Golf Monthly Forum team or two - plenty of forummers in the area


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I get that Phil, but when you read thinks like the Church of Scotland losing 40+ Million during the banking crisis imo opinion certain institutions shouldn't be playing the stock market, SILH's place of Worship needs Â£150,000.00 for essential works, this isn't a tourist place, they hire the hall out, but I woukd suggest it's going to take a lot of WI or Tea Parties to raise that amount and the people worrying about raising that money isn't the Church Elders it'll be the man and woman in the street who probably contribute every week as it is now.
		
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The Church of Scotland lost Â£40mil ? 

Because the value of assets they own dropped ? Do they own shares ? 

Tried to find the reports on that to see how they lost that sort of money but couldn't ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Church of Scotland lost Â£40mil ? 

Because the value of assets they own dropped ? Do they own shares ? 

Tried to find the reports on that to see how they lost that sort of money but couldn't ?
		
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Oops, way worse than I remembered.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12393009.display/


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Oops, way worse than I remembered.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12393009.display/

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How many companies have they invested into ?! Plus hedge funds ? 

But what it does appear to say is that they are all long term investments . So 7 years down the line have they recovered now ( as other shares have ) and now back up to value ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many companies have they invested into ?! Plus hedge funds ? 

But what it does appear to say is that they are all long term investments . So 7 years down the line have they recovered now ( as other shares have ) and now back up to value ?
		
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I don't know Phil, as I said, there's something wrong imo with church's playing in the stock market.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Shame he cant discover the fountain of youth 

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He's a job too far for thatâ€¦â€¦..


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## chrisd (Oct 28, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			He's a job too far for thatâ€¦â€¦.. 

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There will be repercussions for these posts !


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 28, 2016)

chrisd said:



			There will be repercussions for these posts !
		
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Mummy, Chris is going to dribble on me


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## Imurg (Oct 28, 2016)

chrisd said:



			There will be repercussions for these posts !
		
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Well I think you look pretty good for your age, Grandad...

Just don't stand too close to a radiator....&#128533;&#128512;&#128565;


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## chrisd (Oct 28, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Well I think you look pretty good for your age, Grandad...

Just don't stand too close to a radiator....&#128533;&#128512;&#128565;
		
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All the bits I've had done are in metal, not any plastic anywhere :smirk:


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2016)

I've visited a lot of churches and cathedrals over the years and the cost can vary significantly. I was at Salisbury Cathedral this year and the suggested donation was a mere Â£7.50 and it costs an estimated Â£14,000 to update the building. That's a lot of visitors required. http://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/visit-plan-your-visit/recommended-donations

Given the location and iconic history of St Pauls I can see why they are charging what they are to visit. Surely though it's a simple argument of whether you think it's value for money and therefore a cost worth paying or not. Isn't that the same of any tourist attraction and not something exclusive to religious sites


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I've visited a lot of churches and cathedrals over the years and the cost can vary significantly. I was at Salisbury Cathedral this year and the suggested donation was a mere Â£7.50 and it costs an estimated Â£14,000 to update the building. That's a lot of visitors required. http://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/visit-plan-your-visit/recommended-donations

Given the location and iconic history of St Pauls I can see why they are charging what they are to visit. Surely though it's a simple argument of whether you think it's value for money and therefore a cost worth paying or not. Isn't that the same of any tourist attraction and not something exclusive to religious sites
		
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Nobody is saying they shouldn't raise money and of course it takes a lot of money for the upkeep of these places of worship.

Thorpe Park or Madame Tussauds is a tourist attraction, St Pauls is first and foremost a church, a suggested donation is also different to an admission charge, maybe, just maybe there are religious people who would love to visit these places but can't afford it, whether you or I think it's value for money makes no difference to them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody is saying they shouldn't raise money and of course it takes a lot of money for the upkeep of these places of worship.

Thorpe Park or Madame Tussauds is a tourist attraction, St Pauls is first and foremost a church, a suggested donation is also different to an admission charge, maybe, just maybe there are religious people who would love to visit these places but can't afford it, whether you or I think it's value for money makes no difference to them.
		
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Religious people would most prob visit places like St Paul's to pray surely ? And then it's free.

The ones paying to enter are ones who are seeing it as a tourist attraction 

And even then at Â£18 it's considerably cheaper than most of the tourist attractions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Religious people would most prob visit places like St Paul's to pray surely ? And then it's free.

The ones paying to enter are ones who are seeing it as a tourist attraction 

And even then at Â£18 it's considerably cheaper than most of the tourist attractions.
		
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Because that's all religious people do then, just pray!

Â£18.00 is a lot of money if you haven't got it.

2 further points I was unaware of:

If you gift aid your admission fee you get free admission for 12 months, so Â£18.00 for 12 months entry is excellent.

It's not free for prayer, it is free entry for worship when a service is on, when there is no service on, a side chapel is opened for private prayer or contemplation.

In principle I still don't accept admission fees, but donations I have no issue with.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 28, 2016)

I paid Â£13 to get into Bovington [tank museum] yet I can get into the IWM for nowt... As a taxpayer, it could be argued, I pay towards both... So, why the charge for one and not the other...


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 29, 2016)

I presume the tank museum is a private museum. All publicly owned museums are free to enter, thank you TB govt for a genuinely top decision, but the tank museum may be  private standalone museum.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 29, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I presume the tank museum is a private museum. All publicly owned museums are free to enter, thank you TB govt for a genuinely top decision, but the tank museum may be  private standalone museum.
		
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I may have jumped to the wrong conclusion [re funding of the tank museum] with it being located at an active MoD facility... The RAF museum at Hendon is mostly free entry... Anyhow possibly wandered too far away from thread title now...


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## Captainron (Oct 29, 2016)

I would never pay to go to a church/temple/mosque etc. I am not a fan of any religion and think that having to go somewhere to be closer to your respective 'god' is a load of balls!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2016)

Captainron said:



			I would never pay to go to a church/temple/mosque etc. I am not a fan of any religion and think that having to go somewhere to be closer to your respective 'god' is a load of balls!
		
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Your religious views or even lack of them is your prerogative and you are welcome to them but to suggest someone elses personal view is 'a load of balls' is bigoted and does nothing for you.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 30, 2016)

Some people support Crystal Palace with an almost religious attitude, yet the OAP ticket to worship at Selhurst Park is Â£20 each


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## Captainron (Oct 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your religious views or even lack of them is your prerogative and you are welcome to them but to suggest someone elses personal view is 'a load of balls' is bigoted and does nothing for you.
		
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What I meant was, I don't think that churches are necessary. People don't have to go to a church to worship. Religion is a very personal thing so why should you have to go to a centralised venue to do so.


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## chrisd (Oct 30, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Some people support Crystal Palace with an almost religious attitude, yet the OAP ticket to worship at Selhurst Park is Â£20 each 

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But at least you get 45 minutes each way and the cheerleaders before and at half time. Down side is the having to pray - for a result!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2016)

Captainron said:



			I would never pay to go to a church/temple/mosque etc. I am not a fan of any religion and think that *having *to go somewhere to be closer to your respective 'god' is a load of balls!
		
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And so would most folk of religion.  But you can go there to be in the presence of your God as a group.


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2016)

I promised myself I wouldn't dip back into this thread as religion can be such divisive topic but, for a change, what a fantastic debate without loads of snide back biting - big pat on the back to all the forumites! 

BTW, there is only one God, and he supports Middlesbrough FC. Is it wise to mix football with religion?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			I paid Â£13 to get into Bovington [tank museum] yet I can get into the IWM for nowt... As a taxpayer, it could be argued, I pay towards both... So, why the charge for one and not the other...
		
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Bovington does the free entry for 12 months with gift aid as well, Â£13.00 for 12 months, great if you live close.


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## chrisd (Oct 30, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			BTW, there is only one God, and he supports Middlesbrough FC. Is it wise to mix football with religion?
		
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He might support them but even HE can't make them any good!:thup:


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2016)

chrisd said:



			He might support them but even HE can't make them any good!:thup:
		
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He now charges for miracles


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## chrisd (Oct 30, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			He now charges for miracles
		
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I would have thought he would support the "Saints".  :lol:


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Bovington does the free entry for 12 months with gift aid as well, Â£13.00 for 12 months, great if you live close.
		
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As, for me, its about 25years between visits not a lot of benefit in the offer... Same, I suspect, for most others...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

Captainron said:



			What I meant was, I don't think that churches are necessary. People don't have to go to a church to worship. Religion is a very personal thing so why should you have to go to a centralised venue to do so.
		
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Well in fact they are not really - after all the covenanters traipsied into the hills so they could worship together without persecution, church buildings are handy for getting out of the wind and rain.

Truth is - congregational worship in a place of peace and quiet is very powerful and spiritually uplifting


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well in fact they are not really - after all the covenanters traipsied into the hills so they could worship together without persecution, church buildings are handy for getting out of the wind and rain.

Truth is - congregational worship in a place of peace and quiet is very powerful and spiritually uplifting
		
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Or possibly different things to different people. I prefer to go in when it's empty. That said, I was in a (packed) church in Mojacar yesterday - wow! Maybe it was the different language which added something but I felt more connected than I have for a long time at a service.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or possibly different things to different people. I prefer to go in when it's empty. That said, I was in a (packed) church in Mojacar yesterday - wow! Maybe it was the different language which added something but I felt more connected than I have for a long time at a service.
		
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^^^Absolutely this.  I find sitting quietly in an empty church - especially one with a large sanctuary.  I find the sound of silence in a large sanctuary to be very powerful.  As are the sound of silence of a congregation in reflection or prayer - or indeed the magnificent sound of a congregation with choir in full voice accompanied by the wonderful sound of an organ with stops pulled out.


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## Kellfire (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your religious views or even lack of them is your prerogative and you are welcome to them but to suggest someone elses personal view is 'a load of balls' is bigoted and does nothing for you.
		
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It's sacrilege to misquote Star Wars but you have in your signature!


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 31, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			It's sacrilege to misquote Star Wars but you have in your signature!
		
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I thought it was Toy Story, Buzz Lightyear's Catchphrase


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 31, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I thought it was Toy Story, Buzz Lightyear's Catchphrase 

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It would be if you'd read the relevant poster's name right; Lord help us, a dyslexic modâ€¦â€¦.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 31, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			It would be if you'd read the relevant poster's name right; Lord help us, a dyslexic modâ€¦â€¦. 

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Maybe but it keeps you entertwined  :-\


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			It's sacrilege to misquote Star Wars but you have in your signature!
		
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View attachment 21159


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## Kellfire (Nov 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:





View attachment 21159

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You're trusting a picture over actually listening to it? 

"I don't... I don't believe it."


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			You're trusting a picture over actually listening to it? 

"I don't... I don't believe it."
		
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That is why you fail!


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