# Dispersion and Shaft Flex



## One Planer (Jun 15, 2014)

A question for the knowledgeable folk on here.

Of late I've been driving the ball pretty well. I've made a few changes to my set up (Spine tilt at address and teeing the ball up much higher making sure I hit up) The main 2 main issues I have are:

1st - Height: my ball flight has gone from mid to high. It's still a forward flight, but a little on the high side. This is quite strange for me as a few weeks back my ball flight was considerably lower (Pre changes).

2nd - Shape: With my driver, I'm currently hitting a lovely draw. The ball starts right of target and makes it was back to the middle. Quite a change for me as I've always been a fader with the driver. On occasions the amount of curve is quite dramatic and , well, a borderline hook.

The set up I had in my driver yesterday was:

Titleist 910D2 
10.5Â° 
Set to A4 (Standard lie, +1.5Â° loft)
Titleist stock Kai'li in regular flex shaft.

Now, in relation to the thread title.

I've wanted to try a stiff(er) shaft in my driver for some time, but wanted to find something I feel I can use, ideally mid launch/spin. Finally dropped on one Alex1975 was selling on here last week. The shaft in question is a:

Graphite Design Tour AD YSQ 65G Shaft in stiff flex.

Looking at the Titleist shaft fit chart, both these shafts have similar launch and spin (Note: The shaft fit chart is based on S Flex) and _appear_ similar. 







My question to you good people is this. 

In your opinion, can/does/would moving to a stiffer shaft from regular help improve my dispersion and lower my flight a little?

I'm going to keep this thread updated as the shaft turned up yesterday




And I'm playing Tuesday


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## Oddsocks (Jun 16, 2014)

Gareth said:



			A question for the knowledgeable folk on here.

Of late I've been driving the ball pretty well. I've made a few changes to my set up (Spine tilt at address and teeing the ball up much higher making sure I hit up) The main 2 main issues I have are:

1st - Height: my ball flight has gone from mid to high. It's still a forward flight, but a little on the high side. This is quite strange for me as a few weeks back my ball flight was considerably lower (Pre changes).

2nd - Shape: With my driver, I'm currently hitting a lovely draw. The ball starts right of target and makes it was back to the middle. Quite a change for me as I've always been a fader with the driver. On occasions the amount of curve is quite dramatic and , well, a borderline hook.

The set up I had in my driver yesterday was:

Titleist 910D2 
10.5Â° 
Set to A4 (Standard lie, +1.5Â° loft)
Titleist stock Kai'li in regular flex shaft.

Now, in relation to the thread title.

I've wanted to try a stiff(er) shaft in my driver for some time, but wanted to find something I feel I can use, ideally mid launch/spin. Finally dropped on one Alex1975 was selling on here last week. The shaft in question is a:

Graphite Design Tour AD YSQ 65G Shaft in stiff flex.

Looking at the Titleist shaft fit chart, both these shafts have similar launch and spin (Note: The shaft fit chart is based on S Flex) and _appear_ similar. 







My question to you good people is this. 

In your opinion, can/does/would moving to a stiffer shaft from regular help improve my dispersion and lower my flight a little?

I'm going to keep this thread updated as the shaft turned up yesterday

View attachment 11002


And I'm playing Tuesday

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In a word, yes.  I'm sure I read on here common rules is play the weakest shaft you can control.

To give you an idea when I was playing the stock burner I was long but dispersion was quite wide,
Dropping to the amp with a better stock shaft tightened it up..
Then moving on from there to the f1 tightened it again.

I'm slightly shorter with the f1 compared to the rip, but round my place dispersion is the key to scoring so ill trade the 5/10 yards all day long,


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

Oddsocks said:



			In a word, yes.  I'm sure I read on here common rules is play the weakest shaft you can control.

To give you an idea when I was playing the stock burner I was long but dispersion was quite wide,
Dropping to the amp with a better stock shaft tightened it up..
Then moving on from there to the f1 tightened it again.

I'm slightly shorter with the f1 compared to the rip, but round my place dispersion is the key to scoring so ill trade the 5/10 yards all day long,
		
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I've always played a regular shaft on the basis, as you state, it's the weakest shaft I can control.

Dispersion however around my track is always going to take precedence over distance.

I've swung other stiff shafts in friends drivers before (Rombax and Javln) and always thought they felt boardy and _harsh_, hence my comment about finding a stiff shaft I could use.

If I give up 5-10 yards but finding the short stuff more often, that's exactly what I'm after.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2014)

Rule of thumb is 'Yes'

But that's also an 'all other things being equal' rule of thumb!

As the shafts are from different manufacturers, there's no telling whether Stiff/Regular actually matches of whether the flex profile is the same! also consider that the scale of that chart gives a distorted indication of the difference - the difference between a Kai'Li and an Ahina, though noticeable, is nowhere near as significant as that impression the chart gives!

The Cleveland chart gives a 'better' indication of overall flex profile. http://www.clevelandgolf.com/pdfs/2013-Custom-Catalog.pdf

Wishon publishes, or at least has available, a different sort of shaft measurement graph!  

And the answer really is to try it and see! The change may also, as it has recently done for me, change your whole approach to how you swing! The YSQ is about as 'mid-everything' as you can get - and will probably suit 90-95% of players! It should be the default stock shaft imo!


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Rule of thumb is 'Yes'

But that's also an 'all other things being equal' rule of thumb!

As the shafts are from different manufacturers, there's no telling whether Stiff/Regular actually matches of whether the flex profile is the same! also consider that the scale of that chart gives a distorted indication of the difference - the difference between a Kai'Li and an Ahina, though noticeable, is nowhere near as significant as that impression the chart gives!

The Cleveland chart gives a 'better' indication of overall flex profile. http://www.clevelandgolf.com/pdfs/2013-Custom-Catalog.pdf

Wishon publishes, or at least has available, a different sort of shaft measurement graph!  

And the answer really is to try it and see! The change may also, as it has recently done for me, change your whole approach to how you swing! The YSQ is about as 'mid-everything' as you can get - and will probably suit 90-95% of players! It should be the default stock shaft imo!
		
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Very much agree with different manufacturers flex's varying.

I had a swoosh hitting a few balls into a net in the back yard last night. The YSQ feels really smooth and not at all like the other stiff shafts I'd had previous experience with.

I've got the chance to get out and play tomorrow night so, hopefully, get to give it a nudge and see what's what.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I've always played a regular shaft on the basis, as you state, it's the weakest shaft I can control.

Dispersion however around my track is always going to take precedence over distance.

*I've swung other stiff shafts in friends drivers before (Rombax and Javln) and always thought they felt boardy and harsh, hence my comment about finding a stiff shaft I could use.
*
If I give up 5-10 yards but finding the short stuff more often, that's exactly what I'm after.
		
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Javln is one I haven't experienced, but I certainly found the Rombax pretty 'stout'.

The Matrix shafts tend to be a little softer feeling without being too 'loose' - particularly the Code and Rul (or TP) series. Seems like Accras could suit the feel you seem to be after too - stiff-ish tip, but soft-ish just above that for 'active' feel.

But I reckon you will be perfectly happy with the YSQ!


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Javln is one I haven't experienced, but I certainly found the Rombax pretty 'stout'.

The Matrix shafts tend to be a little softer feeling without being too 'loose' - particularly the Code and Rul (or TP) series. Seems like Accras could suit the feel you seem to be after too - stiff-ish tip, but soft-ish just above that for 'active' feel.

*But I reckon you will be perfectly happy with the YSQ!*

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I certainly like the feel of it through the swing. Very stable and smooth.

I'm excited to get it out onto the course just to see how it plays. If it flies as good as it feels, I may be onto a winner.

If that's the case, my fairway wood and hybrid shafts my need to be reviewed also


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## Alex1975 (Jun 16, 2014)

I go back to the YSQ (I have another) whenever I am struggling to release the club head. Its super friendly and never boardy, in my opinion it plays pretty true to flex. I have a Diamana S+ I have back to backed it with and I would say (and this is marginal) that the S+ is *slightly* less spin and *slightly* less launch. They YSQ is smoother as we have talked about and about as stiff although the flex feels more thought the whole shaft where the YSQ feels a little more butt stiff... well really it feels a little more tip soft.


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

Alex1975 said:



			I go back to the YSQ (I have another) whenever I am struggling to release the club head. Its super friendly and never boardy, in my opinion it plays pretty true to flex. I have a Diamana S+ I have back to backed it with and I would say (and this is marginal) that the S+ is *slightly* less spin and *slightly* less launch. They YSQ is smoother as we have talked about and about as stiff although the flex feels more thought the whole shaft where the YSQ feels a little more butt stiff... well really it feels a little more tip soft.
		
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I totally agree about it feeling smooth. 

I hit a few balls into a net last night in the back yard. The shaft felt very stable throughout the entire swing.

The proof of the pudding will come tomorrow night when I can actually see the flight of the ball as opposed to hitting into a net.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 16, 2014)

Thinking you wont want want 12* of loft....?!


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

Alex1975 said:



			Thinking you wont want want 12* of loft....?!
		
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D'ya know I've hit some of my best ever drives with my 910 set to A4 (12Â°).  

I'm going to keep the setting with the YSQ in as I know what the Kai'li did at that setting and can get a direct comparison before (.... If at all) making any changes to the head settings.


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## Alex1975 (Jun 16, 2014)

Gareth said:



			D'ya know I've hit some of my best ever drives with my 910 set to A4 (12Â°).  

I'm going to keep the setting with the YSQ in as I know what the Kai'li did at that setting and can get a direct comparison before (.... If at all) making any changes to the head settings.
		
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Good plan.... My guess is that you will drop it a little in time but who knows, I have always used a 9.5 and still launch that high so its all different for all of us.


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## fundy (Jun 16, 2014)

nothing wrong with 12 degrees


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## Alex1975 (Jun 16, 2014)

fundy said:



			nothing wrong with 12 degrees 

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Its for nooobs!


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

Alex1975 said:



			Good plan.... My guess is that you will drop it a little in time but who knows, I have always used a 9.5 and still launch that high so its all different for all of us.
		
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I have a friend in exactly the same boat. He has a 8.5Â° 909 with a Pro Launch Blue and *still* hits it high 

If I get a similar flight, but improved dispersion, I'll stick with the setting as it is now in A4. 




fundy said:



			nothing wrong with 12 degrees 

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Main difference Steve is I don't have a scaffold pole in mine


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## the_coach (Jun 16, 2014)

As 'Fox' said earlier, in truth shafts specs don't affect flight as much as most folks seem to think. 
It will only affect spin rate at the maximum end between 400 to 500 rpms, in the ability to bring the rate down, & that only from 'centered sweet spot' strikes. Shaft flex & kick points & shaft profiles are a ways more to do with real fine tuning.

The things that affect spin rate, so flight, the most are not finding the sweet spot, the angle of attack, the miss-use of the hands so club head first instead of hands first through impact & club head speed & swing path (out to in so steep attack more spin, in to in & in to out shallower angle of approach less spin from centered strike.

So too much spin, ballooning, too high launch, too high peak height, so lack of penetrating flight, lack of distance much more down to a ways incorrect technique & contacts around the perimeter of the face.

Fitting on a launch monitor the best way to get the best & quantifiable results.

Worth getting a can of foot spray to check the contact area the swing normally delivers.


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

the_coach said:



			As 'Fox' said earlier, in truth shafts specs don't affect flight as much as most folks seem to think. 
It will only affect spin rate at the maximum end between 400 to 500 rpms, in the ability to bring the rate down, & that only from 'centered sweet spot' strikes. Shaft flex & kick points & shaft profiles are a ways more to do with real fine tuning.

The things that affect spin rate, so flight, the most are not finding the sweet spot, the angle of attack, the miss-use of the hands so club head first instead of hands first through impact & club head speed & swing path (out to in so steep attack more spin, in to in & in to out shallower angle of approach less spin from centered strike.

So too much spin, ballooning, too high launch, too high peak height, so lack of penetrating flight, lack of distance much more down to a ways incorrect technique & contacts around the perimeter of the face.

Fitting on a launch monitor the best way to get the best & quantifiable results.

Worth getting a can of foot spray to check the contact area the swing normally delivers.
		
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Thanks for that Coach :thup:

As I said earlier in the thread. Since teeing the ball higher and a slight set up change, I'm driving the ball better than ever!

My main concern in changing flex from regular to stiff is I've been losing a few to the left. 

From a constant ball position, the push draw I get 'over draws' past my target area to well left. 

My concern was/is the the shaft being in suited. 

I've wanted to try a stiff(er) shaft for a while, purely out of curiosity, just to see how it will affect my flight. 

As it stands I'm launching the ball much better which, in turn, has increased my overall carry and in turn over all distance. The ball doesn't 'pop' up from the tee. It's a steady launch and climb to peak height followed by a steady decent. 

The shape the ball is taking is more my concern. I'm simply curious to see if a stiffer shaft will help help me not lose so many left.


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## the_coach (Jun 16, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Since teeing the ball higher and a slight set up change, I'm driving the ball better than ever!

My main concern in changing flex from _regular to stiff _is I've been losing a few to the left. 

From a constant ball position, the push draw I get 'over draws' past my target area to well left. 

My concern was/is the the shaft being in suited. 

I've wanted to try a stiff(er) shaft for a while, purely out of curiosity, just to see how it will affect my flight. 

As it stands I'm launching the ball much better which, in turn, has increased my overall carry and in turn over all distance. The ball doesn't 'pop' up from the tee. It's a steady launch and climb to peak height followed by a steady decent. 

The shape the ball is taking is more my concern. I'm simply curious to see _if a stiffer shaft_ will help help me not lose so many left.
		
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Just trying to understand .... you first changed from regular to stiff? (so it's Stiff that's in now) with the bigger misses being ball starting direction being a ways well right of target but drawing back a ways past target to finish a ways to the left? 

So more of a hook flight?? 
_Doesn't ever have a bunch of shots during play with a starting direction that's left of target going left?_

But you're thinking now of changing from the stiff to a stiffer shaft to not get that flight shape of starting right finishing well left of target?

What average ball park driver club head speed we talking about with these through the 18 holes or a large practice session, rather than the few swings at a fitting/testing?


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## One Planer (Jun 16, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Just trying to understand .... you first changed from regular to stiff? (so it's Stiff that's in now) with the bigger misses being ball starting direction being a ways well right of target but drawing back a ways past target to finish a ways to the left? 
So more of a hook flight?? 
_Doesn't ever have a bunch of shots during play with a starting direction that's left of target going left?_

But you're thinking now of changing from the stiff to a stiffer shaft to not get that flight shape of starting right finishing well left of target?
		
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No pal. 

My current shaft is a regular (Titleist Kai'li). That's the shaft mentioned re dispersion issues (Over curve left). 

I've brought a Graphite Design Tour AD YSQ in stiff flex (Thanks again Alex) which I'll be playing for the first time tomorrow. 

Moving from regular flex to stiff. 

Hope that clears things up bud.


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## the_coach (Jun 16, 2014)

Gareth said:



			No pal. 

My current shaft is a regular (Titleist Kai'li). That's the shaft mentioned re dispersion issues (Over curve left). 

I've brought a Graphite Design Tour AD YSQ in stiff flex (Thanks again Alex) which I'll be playing for the first time tomorrow. 

Moving from regular flex to stiff. 

Hope that clears things up bud.
		
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Would think maybes, if a big swing flight direction from right to left, it's very probably more of a swing path in relation to face angle through impact. You haven't although you teed it up some, moved it back a ways in the stance as well? So the shoulders have closed to the ball target line some?

If not & it's off left heel at the furthest back position, then the swing path given a fairly neutral path would be swinging left a ways in direction through impact so the ball direction start should be pretty straight to target, not a good ways right at start.

If it's starting flight direction is right a good ways then moving back over left a ways. 

So then if ball position is okay shoulders are square at address, grip sound, then through technique you have to be swinging a good ways from the inside with the face angle through impact a ways closed, so there's at collision a big difference in degrees between the rightwards swing path direction & the leftwards (closed) face angle. Bigger the difference in these two angles the bigger the direction of the overdraw/hook flight curvature. Doubt very much it would be down to the difference in shaft flex.


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## Foxholer (Jun 17, 2014)

Gareth said:



			The shape the ball is taking is more my concern. *I'm simply curious to see if a stiffer shaft will help help me not lose so many left*.
		
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When you mentioned 'dispersion' I take that to mean that of your normal 'good' shots. Faulty swings (hooks being the worst) don't count!

The hook is a (randomly occurring) swing problem that a stiffer shaft will not solve - though it might reduce the frequency, and maybe the severity, slightly!

The idiots on WRX and BSG have been trying for years to buy anti-hook Drivers - which don't exist - when all they really need is to stop trying to smash the b-j's out of it. A pro mate plays with Regular shafts because, with anything stiffer, his hands over-compensate and over-draws (at best) are the result. With a strong X-flex, 3* open, 8* Driver, the only result was pull-hooks!

Find the flex that works best for you and stick with it!

Btw. I have seen a shaft make 1500 rpm change, but that was from 4300 to 2800 so, while dramatic, it was really because the original shaft was a distinct mis-fit rather than what a 'typical' shaft change would achieve.


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## One Planer (Jun 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			When you mentioned 'dispersion' I take that to mean that of your normal 'good' shots. Faulty swings (hooks being the worst) don't count!

The hook is a (randomly occurring) swing problem that a stiffer shaft will not solve - though it might reduce the frequency, and maybe the severity, slightly!

The idiots on WRX and BSG have been trying for years to buy anti-hook Drivers - which don't exist - when all they really need is to stop trying to smash the b-j's out of it. A pro mate plays with Regular shafts because, with anything stiffer, his hands over-compensate and over-draws (at best) are the result. With a strong X-flex, 3* open, 8* Driver, the only result was pull-hooks!

Find the flex that works best for you and stick with it!

Btw. I have seen a shaft make 1500 rpm change, but that was from 4300 to 2800 so, while dramatic, it was really because the original shaft was a distinct mis-fit rather than what a 'typical' shaft change would achieve.
		
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Totally agree.

It's not a hook or hook flight I'm trying to cure. I know when I hit a big hook it's, probably down to my ball position creeping back too far.

That isn't the issue I'm looking to rectify.

The flight I get is a very forward flight and, usually, the right to left shape is minimal. Starting fractionally right and curving back to the middle of the fairway. 

The issue I have and I'm looking for 'help' with has started to happen with greater frequency lately. The height of the shot and starting line are fine, but the ball is curving past where I'm _usually_ landing the ball and finishing left edge of the fairway or first cut. Not *every* time, I think it happened, out of 6 times I took driver last weekend, twice. Other drives found either the fairway or right rough when I found the push but not the draw 

It's not a violent hook flight I'm trying to cure, that'll be purely down to me. I'm just trying to tighten the dispersion on my _regular_ shots. Nothing more


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## Foxholer (Jun 17, 2014)

Gareth said:



			It's not a violent hook flight I'm trying to cure, that'll be purely down to me. I'm just trying to tighten the dispersion on my _regular_ shots. Nothing more 

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Still a little 'all over the place' imo, but often just a case of swing changes bedding in - and getting the brain to trust it! 

Much better to have a single 'miss' to allow for. I hit nearly every fairway on Sunday (the stupid thought on the last tee still gets in my craw!) by aiming left half, letting any slight fade bring it back to centre and my push was never past the right-mid.


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## One Planer (Jun 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Still a little 'all over the place' imo, but often just a case of swing changes bedding in - and getting the brain to trust it! 

Much better to have a single 'miss' to allow for. I hit nearly every fairway on Sunday (the stupid thought on the last tee still gets in my craw!) by aiming left half, letting any slight fade bring it back to centre and my push was never past the right-mid.
		
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My typical 'miss' at the minute is left. That said if I get lazy and late I tend to hit the block, but the majority of my misses are now an over draw past target. 

The block, as you said earlier is just down to a poor swing/timing not a constant issue.


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## One Planer (Jun 21, 2014)

A quick update on this. 

Absolutely love the shaft!!  

Don't get me wrong I can still spray it around with the best of them on a bad day but my misses are much better with this shaft. 

As a side note: Does anyone have any experience with the Graphite Design YS-6 FW+ shaft? Specifically how it compares to the Tour AD YSQ (Stiff flex) that I have in my driver.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2014)

Gareth said:



			A quick update on this. 

Absolutely love the shaft!!  

Don't get me wrong I can still spray it around with the best of them on a bad day but my misses are much better with this shaft. 

As a side note: Does anyone have any experience with the Graphite Design YS-6 FW+ shaft? Specifically how it compares to the Tour AD YSQ (Stiff flex) that I have in my driver.
		
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I've hit a couple of 3 woods with this shaft (at least the YS6) - and it's another pretty 'standard - fits almost everyone' shaft. Rule of thumb says you should probably be using a slightly heavier one though - about 75gms. So the YS7 might be more suited.

Supposedly the YSQ series is a tad stiffer in butt and tip than the YS series - which probably translates to slightly lower flight.


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## One Planer (Jun 21, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I've hit a couple of 3 woods with this shaft (at least the YS6) - and it's another pretty 'standard - fits almost everyone' shaft. Rule of thumb says you should probably be using a slightly heavier one though - about 75gms. So the YS7 might be more suited.

Supposedly the YSQ series is a tad stiffer in butt and tip than the YS series - which probably translates to slightly lower flight.
		
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Thanks for that Fox. 

With it being a 4 wood I may be able to get away with a lighter shaft perhaps. 

The Kai'li (reg) I have in the 4 wood currently is 75g I think.


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