# Negative angle of attack with Driver



## sawtooth (May 11, 2014)

I've been on 2 trackman machines recently.

Both reported that my driver AOA is -4/-5 degrees. I need to turn the negative into a positive to get better distance.  Distance isn't a huge issue and apparently the negative AOA helps with accuracy but I shouldn't really be hitting down on the driver so I want to change it if I can.

I've tried teeing the ball up higher and moving ball forward in my stance a bit more. I don't see any difference yet.

Any ideas or drills that can help with this? Or will it just start to happen gradually over time with small tweaks to set up?

A suggestion to go higher on the club loft , from 9.5 to 11 sounds like a sticky plaster approach rather than dealing with the root issue. Is it?


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## Blue in Munich (May 11, 2014)

Sawtooth, if you can consistently reproduce that angle of attack then why is a change of driver loft a sticking plaster approach?  All you are doing is fitting the club to suit your swing.  More lofted low spin head could be the answer.  If the negative angle of attack helps accuracy, why change?  

And no, you don't need any more distance (not that I'm bitter  ).


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## sawtooth (May 11, 2014)

I hear you Rich but its not all about distance although part of me is definitely curious to see what sort of difference -5 to +5 can make. If its wrong to hit down on a driver (and it is) then why carry on doing it? Assuming it is easy enough to change that is.

If its not in my DNA or if it breaks something else then I wont do it.


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## nemicu (May 11, 2014)

Agree with Blue in Munich. Changing loft to suit your AoA is a sensible approach to matching your swing to your equipment. Rather than trying to manipulate your own swing tendencies - with may be ingrained over many years - it is a lot simpler to increase loft to offset the AoA. Unless you can suddenly remodel your swing to give a +ve approach into the ball (not beyond impossible though) loft is your easiest option. If you consider the likes of Charles Howell III who also has your dilemma - and who also uses an 10.5 degree driver (has been 11.5 in the past), then you'll understand why the simple solution is usually the best one.


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## the_coach (May 11, 2014)

+AoA with a driver is pre-set to the biggest extent by set-up at address. Then there are a couple things you can work on in the swing motion too, to be able to more guarantee that what you've pre-set remains through to impact to make sure you deliver an upward +AoA.

What's your average shot shape with a driver & trajectory?

A negative AoA you'll lose around 7 yards in distance for every minus degree delivered through impact. 

Keeping a negative AoA & just upping to a higher loft isn't going to help any, you just get a much higher spin rate which will affect flight through spin rate, without affecting LA over much.

It's not always a truism that a -AoA helps accuracy a ways any, as coming down on the ball allows you only to be able to present a small area of the driver face at impact, usually much higher up the face so giving you a higher spin rate, sometimes this higher rate of backspin can keep the ball straighter a ways.

Chucky three sticks couple years ago had the highest -AoA on the PGA Tour at around -7, he was still reasonably long but not that over accurate, through the past couple years he's worked hard to change his AoA to a plus figure.

Really nowadays with the balls & the driver face technology of a faster face, to take full advantage of this you need to be level through the strike at worse, a ways better to have a +AoA though.


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## sawtooth (May 11, 2014)

Usual shape is a draw,  the trajectory can vary but its normally on the low to mid side. I want to review how I am set up at address for my driver. I know that my weight can be quite neutral so I will try to get 40/60 to see if that can help as well.


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## the_coach (May 11, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Usual shape is a draw,  the trajectory can vary but its normally on the low to mid side. I want to review how I am set up at address for my driver. I know that my weight can be quite neutral so I will try to get 40/60 to see if that can help as well.
		
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The biggest difference _is in setting & maintaining through impact the 2 spine angles_, at address the 2nd spine angle, _the spine tilt away from target is crucial_. You can still be weight set around 50/50, as you still want to get the weight left before & through impact, it's not about 'leaning back' or keeping weight to the right any through impact, it's still delivering weight left & right side coming through but the spine tilt kept into & through impact delivers it in the right way to be solid & a +AoA. (important not to feel your leaning backwards to help the ball upwards)

Making sure the ball position is off the inside of the lead heel. Though often better a ways to use the left arm 'armpit' as the point the ball should be lined up opposite of, sometimes the foot position can change somewhat, but the 'armpits' position won't. 

It's also fairly crucial that both fore-arms aren't 'level' at address. By that I mean if you set up with driver, then look in the mirror at your DTL viewpoint, you should be able to see the very top half of your lead (left in RH) fore-arm 'above' your trail (right) fore-arm, to do this the right arm has to be 'soft' at the elbow so the right arm isn't over straight at address.

In practice rather than focus on swinging up through impact at the ball, better to focus on the fact that the club should be 'level' reached the lowest point of the swing arc some 3 to 4 inches before the club head arrives at impact. Just concentrating on swinging up at the ball is already to late to make much of a difference.

Good drill to feel this is, set up ball off the 'armpit' with both spine angles set, soft right arm, then with out changing anything else simply move the club head this 3" back of the ball, where you want the low point to be in the forward swing. 

Then with the goal to swing easy around 70% effort, you simply start the takeaway from this position 3" back of the ball with the object to 'feel' this low point as you swing back through. It's a little ways harder to do first off, but if you stick with it, ignore the miss hits till you 'get' it, once you've felt & got it should help you a good ways to changing the AoA to plus without too much heartache.

{equally crucial to all of the above is that transition has to start from the ground, the lower body leading the swing motion sequence.}


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## sawtooth (May 11, 2014)

Many thanks I will certainly give that a go. 

So address it off the left armpit (which is a good few inches further forward than normal for me) and then move the club back 3 inches. Then take my swing? 

I will obviously need to tee it higher. BTW Joe Miller kept talking about teeing it high, his ball must be off the ground by 3 inches easily.


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## the_coach (May 11, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Many thanks I will certainly give that a go. 

So address it off the left armpit (which is a good few inches further forward than normal for me) and then move the club back 3 inches. Then take my swing? 

I will obviously need to tee it higher. BTW Joe Miller kept talking about teeing it high, his ball must be off the ground by 3 inches easily.
		
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Yep to the ball position, it's the position you'll see most Tour Pro's put the ball. (for driver only)
& yep to the armpit, it just means the ball's off the left heel as it should be with driver, but using the armpit as reference is more consistently reliable, easy to change stance width a tad without noticing.

The driver head start position being 3" back of ball, is just for this drill. So yes that's the start of the takeaway head some 3" back then swing easy the goal is to feel where the new low point is not to smash it at full power, just 70/75% effort. (although there are a few players particularly among the women professionals that take that driver head some 3"back of ball out to play)

As for height you just want the ball's equator level with top of crown of a 460 driver so yep it's on high tee, but you don't want to tee it over high, no need as your putting the low point of the arc those 3" to 4" before the ball, tee it a ways over high & you won't get solid contact.

A lot different for the Remax guys like Joe who are using 50" Kranks with the loft only marginally more than a putters loft. You definitely don't want to tee it that high.


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## hovis (May 11, 2014)

Dont go too nutts trying to hit up on the ball. Tour average is -1


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## hovis (May 11, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			BTW Joe Miller kept talking about teeing it high, his ball must be off the ground by 3 inches easily.
		
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He tee's it almost 4 inches and hits it +10 with a 4 degree driver


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## sawtooth (May 11, 2014)

hovis said:



			Dont go too nutts trying to hit up on the ball. Tour average is -1
		
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So far the variance seems to be around 12 degrees. Bubba +5 to Charles Howell III -7 degrees. 

I will have to try and find some video or picture that can help me to visualise the difference. For instance do you think it is possible to tell that someone is hitting +ve or -ve or would you need a trackman for that?


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## the_coach (May 11, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			So far the variance seems to be around 12 degrees. Bubba +5 to Charles Howell III -7 degrees. 

I will have to try and find some video or picture that can help me to visualise the difference. For instance do you think it is possible to tell that someone is hitting +ve or -ve or would you need a trackman for that?
		
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Chucky 3 sticks was -7 couple years ago, no longer that negative as far as I know. 

Would be very difficult to see + or - attack angle with the naked eye at 112 mph upwards (around the average swing speed for the tour) The angles may seem a ways different & a huge distance apart but in actuality they are not, if you think what an angle of 1Âº really is.

Tour average attack angle for 2013 as recorded by trackman, so that won't be the whole of the PGA Tour recorded anyways, is at -1.3Âº, but that's an average, that has to mean a significant amount are above 0 & well in the +AoA range.

The best way to visualize & feel the difference, is to do a good deal of driver swings with the drill which starts with the driver in the lowest point that 3" or so behind the ball.

Another way to feel a +AoA, is that drill but simply with a tee (no ball on it) start with driver behind those 3 inches & just swing the goal is to graze the very top of the tee with the bottom of the driver, you got it going good if the tee stays in the ground just angled to target. But those two ways either with or without a ball you'll get to feel an upwards angle of attack through impact.


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## sawtooth (May 12, 2014)

Thanks , will let you know how it goes.


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## Alex1975 (May 12, 2014)

hovis said:



			Dont go too nutts trying to hit up on the ball. Tour average is -1
		
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Tour average is -1 and they have HUGE swing speed.... Club average is +1

Sawtooth, Think of the center of your swing as the middle of your stance in setup, so get your core centered where you might for a six iron. This way you should be on your way up from center.

You can swoosh your driver and let it his the ground in the center to get the feeling in practice.


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## One Planer (May 12, 2014)

Alex1975 said:



			Tour average is -1 and they have HUGE swing speed.... Club average is +1

*Sawtooth, Think of the center of your swing as the middle of your stance in setup, so get your core centered where you might for a six iron. This way you should be on your way up from center.*

You can swoosh your driver and let it his the ground in the center to get the feeling in practice.
		
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Unless I've mis-understood you Al', that would only work if the bottom point of your swing was centre stance. As I understand it, with a proper weight shift, the low point for an iron is under your left arm pit or there abouts.

If you want to be hitting on the up, the ball would need to be forward of that point?


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## garyinderry (May 12, 2014)

[video=youtube;rcHUF_-hWcA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcHUF_-hWcA[/video]


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## Swinger (May 12, 2014)

I have a very similar problem with my trackman stats so enjoying reading this. Some great tips from the_coach, many thanks. 

One quick question (and sorry if this has already been covered) but when I was watching Joe Miller and spoke to him afterwards he seems to aim a fair few degrees (approx. 10 degrees) right of his target, while I appreciate he is in the extreme of the +AoA catagory if I was to take a -4ish AoA to + 2 or more would I have to factor in aiming a little right to accompany what seems like a pull on the line he is setting up on?


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## the_coach (May 12, 2014)

Swinger said:



			I have a very similar problem with my trackman stats so enjoying reading this. Some great tips from the_coach, many thanks. 

One quick question (and sorry if this has already been covered) but when I was watching Joe Miller and spoke to him afterwards he seems to aim a fair few degrees (approx. 10 degrees) right of his target, while I appreciate he is in the extreme of the +AoA catagory if I was to take a -4ish AoA to + 2 or more would I have to factor in aiming a little right to accompany what seems like a pull on the line he is setting up on?
		
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If we take Joe & the other Remax guys out of the equation, simply because of the extreme numbers involved 130+mph, most differently a 50" long Krank, at just the odd degree more loft than your 4Âº putter, although the same principles (physics) apply, it can still muddy the waters some.

Golf always tends to be counterintuitive some, so this is pretty weird stuff to most folks the first time they here it all, not that easy to get your head wrapped round it any. But ...... quick question, but physics doesn't really allow a quick short explanation, sorry.

So looking at say a -4AoA with driver. (assuming here all swings find a centered contact so no complications with "d plane"/"spin axis 2" come in to play at all) 

If you were looking to hit a very slight draw to target you'd pretty much be able to aim face to your end target at, call it zero, body parallel to that target line, given that you deliver a slightly open face angle to impact because the swing path is coming from very slight inside it's also moving outwards to the ball in swing direction, given that the swing is an arc on an inclined plane around a fairly centered axis. (again assuming a correctly sequenced ground up lower body led swing sequence) With that downward attack angle of -4Âº your swing path is back out (rightways) to ball then left inside & up, & you'll get your very slight draw say 10-12 feet approx. 

This happens simply because for approx every 1Âº down AoA means that downwards swing direction is naturally also going to make the club head travel approx 1Âº outwards, so in effect -4Âº downwards is also moving the swing direction 4Âº outwards, rightways as the club head travels to the ball.(to the right side of the zeroÂº ball/target line) Club face angle approx 1Âº open, -4ÂºAoA, swing direction of the club head outwards (to the right) will be also 4Âº, this gives you the soft draw, but for every -1ÂºAoA you also lose approx 7 yards of distance so some approx 30 yards distance lost in total against a level 0Âº AoA through impact.

Any upward attack angle, (I'm speaking only here of driver off of a tee) because the ball has to be a tad more forward in the stance (part of the 'static' set-up requirements along with a few other things I detailed before in the earlier posts here) So this upward AoA is contacting the ball further away from lowest swing arc point means the this arc through impact is also going to be going a little ways more to the left, in it's swing direction.

So this means if you are hitting your +2ÂºAoA & want to hit draw to the same target as the previous -4ÂºAoA swing from the same Teeing point, because now at +2Âº the swing direction is now going to be traveling slightly further left again in swing direction. 
So at address you're going to have to be aiming face & body a ways right of end target point, to produce the same shaped draw. (but you've then got the 30 yards longer to factor in, plus every 1Âº up gives you approx 6 yards extra distance from level, 0Âº AoA, so +2ÂºAoA is another 12 yards, making approx an extra 50+ yards in overall distance assuming the same SS)

So as a controllable 'soft' draw works out always at a swing direction of 4Âº right of the 0Âº ball/target line (with a face angle of around 1Âº-2Âº open to target but the swing direction always more open to (right) of target line.)
 & because of the swing direction is now a ways more left because of the upward 2ÂºAoA, you'd need a swing direction open to (to the right of) the ball/target line of approx 6Âº.

So you'd aim at target to hit soft draw with a -4Âº AoA, but with driver it would be some 50+ approx yards less in overall distance than the +2ÂºAoA. 
But for that +2ÂºAoA you'd have to aim body, so swing direction some 6Âº open (to the right) of the same ball target line as the -4ÂºAoA swing to get the ball drawing to the same end target though now you'd get that approx extra distance of 50+ yards.

Bet ya, you wished you'd never asked now!!  :rofl:


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## the_coach (May 12, 2014)

[video=youtube_share;Em_teHrvOuU]http://youtu.be/Em_teHrvOuU[/video]


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## Alex1975 (May 12, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Unless I've mis-understood you Al', that would only work if the bottom point of your swing was centre stance. As I understand it, with a proper weight shift, the low point for an iron is under your left arm pit or there abouts.

If you want to be hitting on the up, the ball would need to be forward of that point?
		
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For sure, I did not take enough care over my words. That said, you have to reach the low point before you get up on the driver. The main point was that if you set up with your sternal notch facing the ball (it being some what forward of center) it is tough to make a positive attach angle.


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2014)

Swinger said:



			I have a very similar problem with my trackman stats so enjoying reading this. Some great tips from the_coach, many thanks. 

One quick question (and sorry if this has already been covered) but when I was watching Joe Miller and spoke to him afterwards he seems to aim a fair few degrees (approx. 10 degrees) right of his target, while I appreciate he is in the extreme of the +AoA catagory if I was to take a -4ish AoA to + 2 or more would I have to factor in aiming a little right to accompany what seems like a pull on the line he is setting up on?
		
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Remember the Hula Hoop & Pencil demo of what the swing is actually doing. Oddly, can't find a vid of it!

If the swing is descending (and in to out) then the 'straight' face is actually pointing right of the target line, whereas if the swing is ascending it is almost certainly pointing left of the target line. So aiming right will compensate for the 'pull' which actually becomes a push.


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## the_coach (May 12, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Thanks , will let you know how it goes.
		
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This shows how Streelman's been working on this for some time now. But also shows the possible distance gains given the same club head speeds at more like his old but slightly better -1 & a bit AoA, against just a small change in AoA only to just over +1Âº, distance gained & no loss in accuracy. if you look at the -AoA distance numbers with the driver to his final slightly upwards +AoA with approx the same swing speed some big overall distance gain there.

This is there for folks whatever their swing speed.

In fact in general for other folks with slower swing speeds, it's more important to have a higher launch angle to get their own optimum distance for the swing speed they get. 
The easiest change to a higher launch angle is a change to at the very least a level AoA through impact but preferably a +AoA. (for most this will mean a slight different way of thinking to how they start transition so they can lose the over steep out to in swing path which gives no chance of having an upward +AoA, & change to have a ways shallower in to out path instead, despite what folks think not over difficult to do with the right understanding of what they are trying to achieve.)

Simply upping the loft on a driver face alone isn't going to achieve that, in fact it could be even more detrimental as it just adds & ups the spin rate & the harder it's hit the higher not further it goes.


[video=youtube_share;ac8X3cijwAU]http://youtu.be/ac8X3cijwAU[/video]


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Simply upping the loft on a driver face alone isn't going to achieve that, in fact it could be even more detrimental as it just adds & ups the spin rate & the harder it's hit the higher not further it goes.
		
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This to me is the biggest danger!


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## the_coach (May 12, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Remember the Hula Hoop & Pencil demo of what the swing is actually doing. Oddly, can't find a vid of it!

If the swing is descending (and in to out) then the 'straight' face is actually pointing right of the target line, whereas if the swing is ascending it is almost certainly pointing left of the target line. So aiming right will compensate for the 'pull' which actually becomes a push.
		
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[video=youtube_share;_sIQ-7DJJbU]http://youtu.be/_sIQ-7DJJbU[/video]


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## Swinger (May 12, 2014)

I'm not ignoring the above posts, a little more than the light night time read I was expecting! I'll be having a good read of this tomorrow. 
I'll have to get another swing video up as I do love a bit of constructive criticism!


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## the_coach (May 12, 2014)

Swinger said:



			I'm not ignoring the above posts, a little more than the light night time read I was expecting! I'll be having a good read of this tomorrow. 
I'll have to get another swing video up as I do love a bit of constructive criticism!
		
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No problem. It was a pertinent question, to answer to your question with the full reasons behind why the difference is there in the aim points with a downwards AoA versus an upwards AoA , it's a ways more involved to explain exactly why you'd need to aim slightly more to the right, as I think you'd expected anyways, if you're swinging upwards at +2Âº to hit the same target direction as you would aimed more square with a downwards -4 AoA.


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## richart (May 12, 2014)

Swinger said:



			I'll have to get another swing video up as I do love a bit of constructive criticism!
		
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 You swing like a big girls blouse.


Oops just seen the word 'constructive'. You will swing better wearing a big girls blouse ?


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## chrisd (May 13, 2014)

There is a lot of really interesting stuff on this thread and The Coach, Trackman Maestro, and others, have posted some really great stuff that a good, slow read/watch is going to be invaluable. Trackman certainly has dispelled many myths, particularly recent ones of golf tuition and shows what really happens through the golf swing

Thanks guys - one really interesting thread!


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2014)

chrisd said:



			There is a lot of really interesting stuff on this thread and The Coach, Trackman Maestro, and others, have posted some really great stuff that a good, slow read/watch is going to be invaluable. *Trackman certainly has dispelled many myths, particularly recent ones of golf tuition and shows what really happens through the golf swing*

Thanks guys - one really interesting thread!
		
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I believe there's actually more 'enlightenment' to come! Not so much in the way that Trackman finally proved what Cochrane and Stobbs observed and published in 1968 - but seemed to have been pretty much ignored by US coaches who dominated/swamped the teaching area (the 'not invented here' issue?). 

Trackman can detect what is happening to the clubface and what subsequently happens to the ball, but what actually happens at the 'Moment of Truth' is still something of a mystery to it. That's where the ultra-high speed cameras, like the GC2, come into their own. 

For example, even though impact only lasts something like 4 thousandths of a second, the clubhead face angle changes by several degrees during that time. That's equivalent of 2 rotations a second, with the face in contact with the ball - which is doing really strange things in that period too! And it wouldn't take much for those numbers to be vastly under-stated. Just like the rest of Physics, each development is a continual refinement with occasional 'quantum leaps' of understanding.

Oops! Got a bit carried away with a combo of my 'pet subjects' there!


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## the_coach (May 13, 2014)

Figures to look at, at a swing speed nearer an amateurs swing (same will be true for slower swing speeds than this too)

But along with all the other information now out there, proves yet again how folks would be a great ways better off with even a level AoA but preferably an upward +AoA with a driver.
Difficult to understand anyone continuing to think this is all not true still.

[video=youtube_share;uE8AVG8Bl2s]http://youtu.be/uE8AVG8Bl2s[/video]


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## sev112 (May 13, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I believe there's actually more 'enlightenment' to come! Not so much in the way that Trackman finally proved what Cochrane and Stobbs observed and published in 1968 - but seemed to have been pretty much ignored by US coaches who dominated/swamped the teaching area (the 'not invented here' issue?). 

Trackman can detect what is happening to the clubface and what subsequently happens to the ball, but what actually happens at the 'Moment of Truth' is still something of a mystery to it. That's where the ultra-high speed cameras, like the GC2, come into their own. 

For example, even though impact only lasts something like 4 thousandths of a second, the clubhead face angle changes by several degrees during that time. That's equivalent of 2 rotations a second, with the face in contact with the ball - which is doing really strange things in that period too! And it wouldn't take much for those numbers to be vastly under-stated. Just like the rest of Physics, each development is a continual refinement with occasional 'quantum leaps' of understanding.

Oops! Got a bit carried away with a combo of my 'pet subjects' there!

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You are totally right, and I got hugely flamed on here a couple of years back for saying the same, from the brigade who believe that club-ball contact was effectively  instantaneous.


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## sev112 (May 13, 2014)

On this general issue, I was once coached (when I had a huge outside inside downwards approach to the ball) to aim to hit the ball off at 11 o' clock (assuming straight is 9) whilst trying to change NOTHING in my swing 
Surprising what the body can do to achieve that.
For me it was a resounding success and I found a completely different feeling of club-ball contact.  Plus a load of extra distance .
Of course the ball doesn't go off at 11 o'clock (apart from the odd shank/thin)


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## Swinger (May 15, 2014)

Lot of information to take in here but think I'm getting my head round it!! Many thanks for the info and the videos here, I've learned a lot. Will take a trip down the range soon! 

Can't believe how much distance I'm losing!!


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## Region3 (May 16, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Bet ya, you wished you'd never asked now!!  :rofl:
		
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There will be a lot of golfers in the south that wished he hadn't if he finds another 50yds!!


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## MashieNiblick (May 16, 2014)

Region3 said:



			There will be a lot of golfers in the south that wished he hadn't if he finds another 50yds!! 

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Not to mention a certain Signor Quiros


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