# Am I a CAT 1 golfer?



## rickg (Aug 29, 2012)

Need some help...........I shot a 2 over gross (6 better than CSS) 2 weeks ago and triggered an ESR flag.

Today I shot a 3 over gross (nett 67) and depending on the CSS (par 71) I reckon my cut will be:

CSS 70 (3 better) = 0.6 cut = 6.6
CSS 71 (4 better) = 0.8 cut = 6.4
CSS 72 (5 better) = 1.0 cut = 6.2
CSS 73 (6 better) = 1.2 cut = 6.0
CSS 74 (7 better) = 1.4 cut = 5.8
Now assuming CSS doesn't go down to 70 ( unlikely given the conditions today - raining and windy), it should now trigger an actual ESR cut.

my question is....can this ESR take me to 5 or better...ie CAT 1, or is the ESR not able to do this? My understanding was that only the County could make this call?

Hoping Duncan and the crew will be along to have a guess at what I might be playing off tomorrow in my Semi final mixed pairs knockout.......(too impatient to wait for HDID in the morning!!!!)

PS...I played with the guy who I'm playing against tomorrow in the knockout.......he was rubbing his hands....lol.......my mixed partner wasn't too impressed when I rang her and gave her the news......


----------



## louise_a (Aug 29, 2012)

An ESR cannot take you into Cat 1


----------



## Val (Aug 29, 2012)

You can't assume an ESR so should be off 6 untill told differently


----------



## Region3 (Aug 29, 2012)

Good scoring Rick.

As Louise said, ESR can't take you to cat1, but it can take you to 5.5 if it's applied.

Doesn't look like it'll be long now either way.

Is our bet on now? ;-)


----------



## slicer79 (Aug 29, 2012)

It can't take you to Cat 1. Not sure if it can take you as far as 5.5 or not?


Edit: just seen in last post it can take you to 5.5


----------



## Scottjd1 (Aug 29, 2012)

Thats great scoring Rick, so either way, just a matter of time.

 Is this the lowest you have been?


----------



## rickg (Aug 29, 2012)

Scottjd1 said:



			Thats great scoring Rick, so either way, just a matter of time.

 Is this the lowest you have been?
		
Click to expand...

yes ...previous low was 6.6.....but then i went up to 9.4.....back down to 7........up to 8.9 ( 3 weeks ago)........now hopefully 5.5........

feel a bit cheated that I wont get cut more as it would have probably triggered a 1 or 2 shot cut given that the 2 ESR events were so close and ( depending on CSS for today) could be 6 under 2 weeks ago and 4, 5 or 6 under CSS today.......


----------



## Phil2511 (Aug 30, 2012)

You can get an ESR applied but if it takes you to to Cat 1 it will automatically put you back up to 5.5 (The lower limit of Cat 2) this link somebody the other day gave, I think Louise posted, explains better http://www.cgc-ni.com/uploads/CONGU ESR.pdf


----------



## Snelly (Aug 30, 2012)

Well played mate.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 30, 2012)

Well played sir. Just one question if I may.....
Do you have a different h/cap for each set of clubs you have ?


----------



## rosecott (Aug 30, 2012)

Although ESR cannot take you below 5.5, there is still scope for your handicap committee to consider a general Clause 23 reduction. That, however, would have to go to your County Union for them to consider and approve or reject.


----------



## G1BB0 (Aug 30, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Well played sir. Just one question if I may.....
Do you have a different h/cap for each set of clubs you have ?
		
Click to expand...

I doubt it as he wouldnt be able to keep track of them all haha

great golf Rick, I can only dream of them kind of scores. cat1 will arrive in due course


----------



## bobmac (Aug 30, 2012)

I'm no expert on h/caps so don't quote me, but didn't I read somewhere CatI golfers can now get cut on Supplementary cards?


----------



## Imurg (Aug 30, 2012)

Yes indeedy!!

Useful for those of us who can't, for onr reason or another, play enough qualifiers.


----------



## rickg (Aug 30, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Although ESR cannot take you below 5.5, there is still scope for your handicap committee to consider a general Clause 23 reduction. That, however, would have to go to your County Union for them to consider and approve or reject.
		
Click to expand...

I like this!!....might pursue with our H/C sec.

If there had not been a 5.5 limit imposed by CONGU, my handicap would now be exactly 4.0 as my 6 under CSS yesterday would have attracted an additional 2 shot cut instead of the 0.5 that was actually imposed on top of the 1.2 competition cut.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 30, 2012)

Guess we can't call you a Bandit anymore.....

Sweet scoring Rick.

But there isn't room in Cat1 for both of us - guess I might have to make way for you.......


----------



## Val (Aug 30, 2012)

Rick, shoot the lights out again in your next medal and you'll be down there on merit.

Well played.


----------



## rickg (Aug 30, 2012)

Region3 said:



			Good scoring Rick.

As Louise said, ESR can't take you to cat1, but it can take you to 5.5 if it's applied.

Doesn't look like it'll be long now either way.

Is our bet on now? ;-)
		
Click to expand...

YEP...bring it on!!!!!    lol


----------



## rickg (Aug 30, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Well played sir. Just one question if I may.....
Do you have a different h/cap for each set of clubs you have ?
		
Click to expand...

very funny Bob!!....actually since I put the Taylor Made irons back in the bag at the beginning of August, I've gone from 8.9 to 5.5 so there is very shortly going to be a very shiney set of Callaway X forged irons 3-PW with beautiful Nippon NSPro 1150 gh tour stiff shafts going into the for sale section!!!!!...........

I  will then have finally reached my golfing lifetime ambition............only 1 set of irons!!!!!!!!......lol


----------



## Junior (Aug 30, 2012)

Great going mate!!! Seriously good golf that.  CAT 1 is only a matter of time!! 

Have you made a concious effort to practise or is it just down to being in great form and playing more rounds of  golf than i've had hot dinners?? (thats a lot of dinners btw)


----------



## rickg (Aug 30, 2012)

Junior said:



			Great going mate!!! Seriously good golf that.  CAT 1 is only a matter of time!! 

Have you made a concious effort to practise or is it just down to being in great form and playing more rounds of  golf than i've had hot dinners?? (thats a lot of dinners btw) 

Click to expand...

Thanks mate.....

I had a chipping lesson 2 weeks ago and it has transformed my game!! I cant ever remember having so many up and downs........I also only had 28 putts last night (13 out & 15 back) with just the one silly 3 putt from around 10 feet, so the putting is  working well at present........

it also has a great effect on making you want to practice the chipping more as I'm now actually quite enjoying those shots instead of dreading them.


----------



## slicer79 (Aug 30, 2012)

Does anyone think there should be no restriction on where an ESR cut can take you? 

Why rule out Cat 1 players. If they manage to beat CSS by 4 on two occasions are they not entitled to a little bonus cut as well 

Anyone know the reasons behind why Cat 1 are excluded?


----------



## CMAC (Aug 30, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Rick, shoot the lights out again in your next medal and you'll be down there on merit.

Well played.
		
Click to expand...

agree with this. I'd never heard of esr until here, why 'argue' a point to get a reduction! just let your figures do the talking!


----------



## rickg (Aug 30, 2012)

Imurg said:



			But there isn't room in Cat1 for both of us - guess I might have to make way for you.......
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

....or Fragger??..........lol


----------



## rosecott (Aug 30, 2012)

slicer79 said:



			Does anyone think there should be no restriction on where an ESR cut can take you? 

Why rule out Cat 1 players. If they manage to beat CSS by 4 on two occasions are they not entitled to a little bonus cut as well 

Anyone know the reasons behind why Cat 1 are excluded?
		
Click to expand...

It may well be because ESR is still officially only a trial. Entry into Cat 1 by any means other than the current system of performance against CSS is still jealously guarded by County Unions on behalf of GolfEngland. I suspect that, if the trial is deemed a success and is then written into CONGU rules, ESR will apply to all categories in all National Unions, perhaps with County Unions rubberstamping Cat 1s.


----------



## Bomber69 (Aug 30, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			agree with this. I'd never heard of esr until here, why 'argue' a point to get a reduction! just let your figures do the talking!
		
Click to expand...

I agree it seems the ESR is a trial to reduce handicaps south of the Border, not sure why TBH and more to the point does it help players who are unable to play to their handicap to go up quicker ?

Seems a strange rule to me.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 30, 2012)

Good scoring Rick - sounds like it's just a matter of time until Cat 1!


----------



## duncan mackie (Aug 30, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			I agree it seems the ESR is a trial to reduce handicaps south of the Border, not sure why TBH and more to the point does it help players who are unable to play to their handicap to go up quicker ?

Seems a strange rule to me.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the point of the 'trial'.

The requirements behind an ESR already exists in the handicapping manual, including the SGU version of it. The trial relates to the application of a formulaic approach to it's application.

The formulae was derived by working back from fast improvers to see what they actualy did, and where they finally got to - it's about recognising a patern of scores that indicate that the existing formulae is not reducing a fast improver quickly enough; it has nothing to do with how low they go.

There is one train of thought that suggests that you can't really have a 'fast improver' within Cat 1 - and another that suggest's that the formulae should be robust enough to apply to all golfers. Personally I think that the latter is the correct approach but that the current formulae isn't appropriate across all categories as it stands (but could easily be tweaked to do so).

Increases for exceptional situations are already available in the system; increases for normal degredation are also there but require the application by the handicap committee of the guidlines in the manual.

It seems somewhat strange that here, and in the other thread, you seem to advocate process driven accelerated increases - but question their application to decreases?

Extremely few system generated recomendations are not processed by our handicap committee; in in total there tend to be more rather than less. From word of mouth (always dangerous) it would appear that the majority of handicap committees are extrememly reticent to apply wholesale increases to the membership because more seem to value a lower figure they can't play to than want an increase so that they can!

It is however a completely different discussion than the one raised by the OP.

Well done Rick - look forward to the thread 'I am a cat 1 golfer!'.


----------



## Bomber69 (Aug 30, 2012)

It seems somewhat strange that here, and in the other thread, you seem to advocate process driven accelerated increases - but question their application to decreases?

Duncan, I have no problem with the system issuing cuts when there is enough evidence but I am sure that there are a lot of folk out there who have a handicap that they can't play too and feel that to be more competitive they need it reviewed and possibly increased. At the moment you say that there is a system there but how many clubs review this and implement this over the season not a lot I bet, so why is it that the system is set to look out for rapid improvers and not set up in the same way to help the players who struggle week in week out to make buffer never mind their handicap.


----------



## Region3 (Aug 30, 2012)

rickg said:



			YEP...bring it on!!!!!    lol
		
Click to expand...

Game on then.

Advantage you since I don't even know when my next qualifier is, and probably only have 3 or 4 left this season.
Still, I don't mind since I've won the last 2 bets  ;-)


----------



## Robobum (Aug 30, 2012)

Tidy work that Rick. 

Given your Delboy rep, I'd flog the Taylor Mades for top dollar - guaranteed to reduce the buyers handicap!!!! 

As for county led cuts in Cat 1 - Gloucs didn't even entertain it. I'd won 7 board comps at my club in the same season and the club looked for an extra cut through the county. They looked at my county OOM appearances and saw only 3 out of 12 scores below CSS for the year and knocked it back.

Regardless, with this form you'll be doing it under your own steam very soon!!!


----------



## duncan mackie (Aug 30, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			Duncan, I have no problem with the system issuing cuts when there is enough evidence but I am sure that there are a lot of folk out there who have a handicap that they can't play too and feel that to be more competitive they need it reviewed and possibly increased. At the moment you say that there is a system there but how many clubs review this and implement this over the season not a lot I bet, so why is it that the system is set to look out for rapid improvers and not set up in the same way to help the players who struggle week in week out to make buffer never mind their handicap.
		
Click to expand...

The actions of a particular handicap committee can only be answered by them, to their members and their authority. As already posted I don't believe that they are as active in this area as they could be, and this has implications to the total membership through CSS calculations as well. Any member can accelerate his own increase in such situations, at no cost and no inconvenience, by the submission of 10 supplemental cards; and such cards would provide additional evidence at the annual review - but strangely few people take advantage of this, which I have had to conclude is because their pride in their handicap  level overrides their wish to be correctly handicapped. If you really want to see this in action consider the majority of ladies sections!!!

So how many supplemental cards has your NDN submitted?


----------



## duncan mackie (Aug 30, 2012)

Robobum said:



			As for county led cuts in Cat 1 - Gloucs didn't even entertain it. I'd won 7 board comps at my club in the same season and the club looked for an extra cut through the county. They looked at my county OOM appearances and saw only 3 out of 12 scores below CSS for the year and knocked it back.

Regardless, with this form you'll be doing it under your own steam very soon!!!
		
Click to expand...

indeed - I wouldn't bother to pursue this line unless at least one of the ESR's was at an away course.


----------



## Crow (Aug 30, 2012)

Well done Rick!  A couple of excellent rounds there, could do with some of that myself.


----------



## rickg (Aug 30, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			indeed - I wouldn't bother to pursue this line unless at least one of the ESR's was at an away course.
		
Click to expand...

probably right. I met with the handicap secretary today and advised that i would like it to be considered. He asked me to submit my request in writing with the full details which i did today.

Like you and Robo said, probably will get pushed back, but nothing to lose by trying.
Got a qualifier on Sunday so will try and get there in the tried and tested fashion.


----------



## CMAC (Aug 31, 2012)

Do it on merit, not on the 'mood of the day' of the local committee!


----------

