# Cheating on the course



## Britishshooting (Jul 9, 2019)

How would you or your club deal with it?

We all received an E-Mail originally via BRS stating this:

_It has been brought to my attention that a member playing in the single stableford club competition yesterday, cheated by kicking their ball out of the tree's and into the fairway and then improving their lie further, with their club head._
_I am writing this email in the slim hope that the individual will see the error of their ways and admit formally to myself, their guilt._
_The matter would then be brought in front of the Club Committee, for a decision on any further action._

_Blatant cheating is something that should never happen at this club or indeed, any other golf club. _
_Golf is a game of integrity and behaviour like this, will not be accepted._

It appears the individual has not stepped forward so a further E-mail has come through today:


I have been asked to publish the letter below re: alleged cheating, by a member who witnessed the incident, as there were some inaccuracies in my first e-mail .

The invitation, to discuss and admit their guilt formally with me personally, is still open.

Regards
Chairman


1st July 2019 

Re: Cheating on the course

On Sunday 23rd June I was playing a single stableford competition, teeing off at 08:40 am. 

On the 2nd hole my playing partner hit his ball over the trees and towards the 3rd tee. While I was waiting for him to take his shot back over the trees and towards the 2nd green I noticed an individual on the 4th hole. His ball had landed in the longish grass at the top of the ditch which had prevented it from rolling into the ditch, just past the roadway. 

I noticed him look back towards his playing partner who was some 40/50 yards away back towards where the old ditch used to be. His partner was lining up his shot so would not have been able to see what I was about to witness. The individual kicked his ball out of the long grass and into the second cut, not happy with his lie he used his golf club to guide his ball to a more favourable position. 

I was really mad with myself for not confronting the individual there and then. This is why I brought it to the attention of the Chairman. 

In the e-mail George sent out he reported it had been kicked out of the trees. This was incorrect, it was kicked out of some longish grass at the top of the ditch 10 yards up from the road and some 15 yards short of the first tree on the right hand side of the fourth fairway.

I feel very strongly about this sort of behaviour and also about other incidents that are moaned about but not reported. 

I think everyone should report cheating, whether it is incorrect scores, dropping another ball when theirs canâ€™t be found or are out of bounds, or gaining cheating lies. 

This individual must know who he is. 

Iâ€™m quite prepared to stand with him in front of the committee and face to face report what I 100% saw, but letâ€™s hope he does the right thing , comes forward and owns up to his cheating actions. 

In the mean time I will be removing my name from any single or 4-man team event he has his name down for.

Not good and there is no excuse for such behaviour, what would be a suitable course of action should the individual admit his actions, can much be done if he doesn't??


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

Why would you report cheating and not name the person responsible if you knew who it was?


----------



## Britishshooting (Jul 9, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Why would you report cheating and not name the person responsible if you knew who it was?
		
Click to expand...

I believe the name of the person is between the witness and the chairman currently. The Chairman wants the cheat to own up on his own admission before being challenged I think.

I also think the Chairman is using the possibility of not releasing his name as leverage to get him to own up to it hence not publicly stating it yet.


----------



## Bxm Foxy (Jul 9, 2019)

I think purely to see If he'll own up for his actions.


----------



## patricks148 (Jul 9, 2019)

always a tricky one, but i doubt a cheat would openly come forward.

My club had a well publicised cheating incident that went to the Scottish high court, with the plaintive siting the club for deformation of character after he was asked to leave the club.

I'd imagine the best way to deal with this would be through committee from the start with the witness making what he saw down to the club to investigate and take action


----------



## Jensen (Jul 9, 2019)

The letter sent clearly indicates the date and time it took place.  As other members will be able to narrow it down to the 3 or 4 ball involved, I don't think the offender has much chance but to come forward. He's practically been named by association.
His punishment must certainly be a ban of some sort together with the public shame


----------



## Slab (Jul 9, 2019)

The Chairman _must _already know who it is (otherwise how would he have checked the scorecard to make sure the player didn't NR the hole?)

With that in mind & other factors its a risky business to put this out to the members rather than simply writing to the 'accused' to call them to a meeting

Punishing someone for wrongdoing (if it comes to that) is fine. Using their transgression as an example to others (in effect another punishment) is a very risky strategy that could backfire


----------



## USER1999 (Jul 9, 2019)

I assume the person seen doing this scored on that hole? If he put it down as a blob, then it is not cheating as such, just mucking about. Ok, it is practicing on the course, but then is continuing playing when you can no longer score the same as? 

If he scored the hole, then yes, guilty as.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Slab said:



			The Chairman _must _already know who it is (otherwise how would he have checked the scorecard to make sure the player didn't NR the hole?)

With that in mind & other factors its a risky business to put this out to the members rather than simply writing to the 'accused' to call them to a meeting

Punishing someone for wrongdoing (if it comes to that) is fine. Using their transgression as an example to others (in effect another punishment) is a very risky strategy that could backfire
		
Click to expand...

I think exactly the same as this. Clearly knowing what group he was in means they know who it was. Therefore to me the sensible course of action would be to invite that player to a meeting to discuss the matter and carry out any sanctions. By putting it out openly to all the members as an example before guilt is factually established through admission or meeting sets a dangerous precedent for the club.


----------



## Imurg (Jul 9, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I assume the person seen doing this scored on that hole? If he put it down as a blob, then it is not cheating as such, just mucking about. Ok, it is practicing on the course, but then is continuing playing when you can no longer score the same as?

If he scored the hole, then yes, guilty as.
		
Click to expand...

Good point.
He could have lost  2 balls by then and have blobbed the hole
If he's just playing up then the fact he's used a leather wedge isn't relevant to the competition.


----------



## Britishshooting (Jul 9, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Good point.
He could have lost  2 balls by then and have blobbed the hole
If he's just playing up then the fact he's used a leather wedge isn't relevant to the competition.
		
Click to expand...

I played against the chairman in the single knockout last week, he obviously didn't want to get into specifics but the individual did score 3 points on the hole. Made a par on the par 5 with a shot. He didn't place in the competition fortunately.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jul 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I think exactly the same as this. Clearly knowing what group he was in means they know who it was. Therefore to me the sensible course of action would be to invite that player to a meeting to discuss the matter and carry out any sanctions. By putting it out openly to all the members as an example before guilt is factually established through admission or meeting sets a dangerous precedent for the club.
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you and as times are quoted it won't be rocket science to work out who was in the group and so "flagged" by association and it seems a rocky path. Far better to simply call the person to the committee and have the case put forward and give them the opportunity to provide a defence and then if necessary take action from there. Assuming the player completed the hole and was therefore in the comp I would imagine these would be pretty far reaching and that person (if guilty) will have a tough time at the club. 

Far better in my opinion to deal with the matter first, and then put a notice out so members are aware its been dealt with (stops some of the rumours) and a general shot across everyones bows that cheating will not be tolerated and stringent penalties if found to be doing so will be handed out


----------



## Imurg (Jul 9, 2019)

Britishshooting said:



			I played against the chairman in the single knockout last week, he obviously didn't want to get into specifics but the individual did score 3 points on the hole. Made a par on the par 5 with a shot. He didn't place in the competition fortunately.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough


----------



## jim8flog (Jul 9, 2019)

Britishshooting said:



			.

I also think the Chairman is using the possibility of not releasing his name as leverage to get him to own up to it hence not publicly stating it yet.
		
Click to expand...

The person should not be publicly named. It leaves a club open to a lawsuit. All meetings to discuss this should be kept confidential by the committee as should any disciplinary meeting.


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

I wouldn't be surprised if he comes forward, but in order to clear his name with some excuses rather than owning up. If he admits it fully then enough people know that his name will be tarnished forever anyway. Word gets round. He'll have to go full gung-ho and claim the chap didn't see what he thought he saw and it's one word against his.


----------



## nickjdavis (Jul 9, 2019)

Frankly I think it is shocking that the committee have chosen to deal with this in such an open public manner. As has been said previously, it would be no issue for the rest of the club membership to determine who was being talked about so the guys name is "public knowledge" before he even has been given a chance to provide his own side of the story...even if his version of events is indefensible he should be able to give it before being publicly outed.

The committee should have written to the bloke directly, inviting him to explain his actions. 

However...with the fact that the person wasn't challenged at the time, and there were presumably no other witnesses, it could quite easily come down to one persons word against the others....if the guy denies that the offence ever took place then it would be a struggle to determine an appropriate sanction to apply.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I wouldn't be surprised if he comes forward, but in order to clear his name with some excuses rather than owning up. If he admits it fully then enough people know that his name will be tarnished forever anyway. Word gets round. *He'll have to go full gung-ho and claim the chap didn't see what he thought he saw and it's one word against his.*

Click to expand...

That's actually another really good point. If the fella denies it and it becomes the word of one person v another the committee cannot sanction it surely because to take one word over another is a hard thing to do, if there had been a couple of witnesses stating it possibly easier as it's not 1 v 1 where the guy could just say he has a personal problem with me and is trying to make me out to be something I'm not. So to have gone so public so soon without speaking to the accused is very poor from the club.

I've been witness to something similar in past and had to give a statement to what I saw, but in my case there was also another witness who came forward independently so was much easier to make the case against the guy who did knowingly cheat.


----------



## Britishshooting (Jul 9, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			The person should not be publicly named. It leaves a club open to a lawsuit. All meetings to discuss this should be kept confidential by the committee as should any disciplinary meeting.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I came back from my honeymoon some 4 days after the E-mail was originally sent and the only topic of conversation seemed to be this and people making assumptions as to who they thought it may be.

I'm surprised the club took the approach they did to be quite honest. I think it would have been much better to keep between the witness, committee and the potential culprit. 

This E-Mail was released this morning, it's now lit the fire again and everyone will be speculating who it may or may not be. 

I've come across this situation twice before, but it's never took this approach.


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			That's actually another really good point. If the fella denies it and it becomes the word of one person v another the committee cannot sanction it surely because to take one word over another is a hard thing to do, if there had been a couple of witnesses stating it possibly easier as it's not 1 v 1 where the guy could just say he has a personal problem with me and is trying to make me out to be something I'm not. So to have gone so public so soon without speaking to the accused is very poor from the club.

I've been witness to something similar in past and had to give a statement to what I saw, but in my case there was also another witness who came forward independently so was much easier to make the case against the guy who did knowingly cheat.
		
Click to expand...

Agree. The witness will know what they saw, but if the culprit just flatly denies it, I suspect they would need a second witness or they can't really take action against him as it's one v one.


----------



## Slab (Jul 9, 2019)

Reading the chairmanâ€™s amateur judge/jury again it doesnâ€™t show him in a good light (not as bad as a cheat obviously)



Britishshooting said:



			a member playing in the single stableford club competition yesterday, cheated by kicking their ball out of the tree's and into the fairway and then improving their lie further, with their club head.
		
Click to expand...

Not 'was reported to' or even 'was seen to' the players guilt has already been predetermined 



Britishshooting said:



			I am writing this email in the slim hope that the individual will see the error of their ways and admit formally to myself, their guilt.
		
Click to expand...

Not 'meet to discuss' or suggest any kind of formal hearing prior to reaching a decision. Just the option to admit guilt. Again this has already predetermined the guilt or otherwise

The guy may well be guilty, but for the club to publicly state they will not offer any fair hearing to determine that guilt, it gives the 'cheat' all the ammunition he might need to use 'offense as the best defense' and deflect from whether he's guilty or not. The Chairman as already determined it


----------



## DRW (Jul 9, 2019)

I don't agree with the actions the committee have made, but wonder if they are trying to get others/someone else to come forward to confirm other times it may have happened.

Dangerous games to play tho....


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Agree. The witness will know what they saw, but if the culprit just flatly denies it, I suspect they would need a second witness or they can't really take action against him as it's one v one.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly which makes the chairman's email stating the person should come forward to admit their guilt nothing but ammunition for the potential cheat to use against the club. Especially of the guy wanted to take it further and take action against the club. Proving something one a 1v1 basis hard to do but having email proof of what your being told you've done which you can dispute regardless of guilt or not that's just perfect ammo


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

DRW said:



			I don't agree with the actions the committee have made, but wonder if they are trying to get others/someone else to come forward to confirm other times it may have happened.

Dangerous games to play tho....
		
Click to expand...

Imagine it, a proper Spartacus moment as about 15 people come forward proclaiming to be the cheat.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Slab said:



*The guy may well be guilty, but for the club to publicly state they will not offer any fair hearing to determine that guilt, it gives the 'cheat' all the ammunition he might need to use 'offense as the best defense' and deflect from whether he's guilty or not. The Chairman as already determined it*

Click to expand...

Absolutely... Guilty or not they have to prove it, so if its one word v another they cannot do that. The email basically proves regardless of what he says he's a guilty cheating no good scoundrel. He can use that to go on the offensive against the club, should've just sent him an invite to meeting letter.


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Absolutely... Guilty or not they have to prove it, so if its one word v another they cannot do that. The email basically proves regardless of what he says he's a guilty cheating no good scoundrel. He can use that to go on the offensive against the club, should've just sent him an invite to meeting letter.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah. BritishShooting can correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like the chap reporting the crime is a close friend of the chairman, hence he has taken his word as gospel. Guilty until proven innocent.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah. BritishShooting can correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like the chap reporting the crime is a *close friend of the chairman, hence he has taken his word as gospel*. *Guilty until proven innocent*.
		
Click to expand...

If that is true which is possible that makes it even worse and puts the chairman's position in a precarious position, would be further proof of if your face fits... 

As for the other bit in this case thanks to the chairman's email it would be a case of guilty regardless of innonence proven or otherwise.


----------



## Slab (Jul 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Absolutely... Guilty or not they have to prove it, so if its one word v another they cannot do that. The email basically proves regardless of what he says he's a guilty cheating no good scoundrel. He can use that to go on the offensive against the club, should've just sent him an invite to meeting letter.
		
Click to expand...

Yup all he has to say is something like;

_â€˜I am led to understand I am the individual referred to in the emails. However the club have made their position of  predetermining my â€˜guiltâ€™ very clear to the members prior to ever speaking with me. Knowing that I cannot now be provided any opportunity of a fair hearing they have removed any & all ability for me to prove that innocence. See you in courtâ€™ _

and if he is guilty of cheating it would be a real shame that he may not be held properly accountable for it


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2019)

The letter makes not good reading, and I am uncomfortable with the thought that this would be put out to all members without the accused having been summonsed by the committee to explain himself.  This is no business of the wider membership.  We all make mistakes and have moments of squinty-thinking - and if we refuse to come forward we need to be summonsed...and we might then express regret and apologise.  And that should remain behind closed doors of the committee room.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Slab said:



			Yup all he has to say is something like;

_â€˜I am led to understand I am the individual referred to in the emails. However the club have made their position of  predetermining my â€˜guiltâ€™ very clear to the members prior to ever speaking with me. Knowing that I cannot now be provided any opportunity of a fair hearing they have removed any & all ability for me to prove that innocence. See you in courtâ€™ _

and if he is guilty of cheating it would be a real shame that he may not be held properly accountable for it
		
Click to expand...

Again I agree. The guilt of the matter imo is now an irrelevant part of the overall situation. Proving he's guilty in 1 v 1 debate would be hard anyway, but now he can do exactly as you've said with proof of his character being questioned openly and at the club as well as tongues will be wagging. He now has all he needs for a comfortable little law suit.


----------



## Britishshooting (Jul 9, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah. BritishShooting can correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like the chap reporting the crime is a close friend of the chairman, hence he has taken his word as gospel. Guilty until proven innocent.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure on who made the original accusations, I didn't play that day so have no idea who played when so can't say either way unfortunately.

It's definitely been dealt with incorrectly in my eyes, glad the general consensus seems to agree with that. Unfortunately this club seems to over step the line on many such occasions similarly with juniors all in which could lead to a legal outcome.

I had to interject when a senior founder member was berating a young junior for some pathetically minor infraction that he blew all out of proportion. I know its a completely different subject matter but I don't think people understand the full picture these days with how easy it is to put your club in a very compromising situation.

I've offered to step into assisting with the junior organising as a complete dinosaur (who organised myself as juniors) is still leading the way currently. He's a lovely bloke and back when I was a lad was the sort of figure you needed and my parents were happy for him to give me some tough love. These days unfortunately such a role model can get a club into trouble if the parents decide to take matters further if there kid comes home upset.

They are strange times we live in but we have to move with them, something the committee at said club doesn't quite understand as of yet and tends to deal with all issues in an open/public manor which is not suitable nor professional.


----------



## howbow88 (Jul 9, 2019)

BritishShooting - posting this all up is a good ruse, but you're not fooling anyone. Just admit it that it was you


----------



## Crazyface (Jul 9, 2019)

Sound to me like you know what you're doing. You should be running the place.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2019)

nickjdavis said:



			Frankly I think it is shocking that the committee have chosen to deal with this in such an open public manner. As has been said previously, it would be no issue for the rest of the club membership to determine who was being talked about so the guys name is "public knowledge" before he even has been given a chance to provide his own side of the story...even if his version of events is indefensible he should be able to give it before being publicly outed.

The committee should have written to the bloke directly, inviting him to explain his actions.

However...with the fact that the person wasn't challenged at the time, and there were presumably no other witnesses, it could quite easily come down to one persons word against the others....if the guy denies that the offence ever took place then it would be a struggle to determine an appropriate sanction to apply.
		
Click to expand...

Surely he has provided his own side of the story; he only took 5 shots to complete that par 5 and he signed his own witness statement.


----------



## rulefan (Jul 9, 2019)

With such flimsy evidence (one word against another) the club would be well advised not to publish a name. 
With this now being high profile I could imagine a leak from a committee meeting.
Lawsuits can be expensive


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Surely he has provided his own side of the story; he only took 5 shots to complete that par 5 and he signed his own witness statement.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter what his card says until he has been offered a right of reply to the accusation made. Guilty or not he has this right, he could even potentially say it simply didn't happen and if its one word v another they can't prove either way without being impartial and taking sides regardless of what the scorecard shows and what the other guy knows he saw.


----------



## Twire (Jul 9, 2019)

The problem I have with the chairman going public.... and the subsequent email from the accuser, is that it has probably tainted half a dozen people. You don't have to be a detective to work out which group or couple of groups the alleged cheat was in. If he is not named then the rest are tainted , I wouldn't be happy if I was in one of those groups.

It should have been dealt with internally, invite the guy in and ask for his side of the story.

Very unprofessional by the golf club.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Just thinking about this more I can imagine the meeting if it were to take place now would be something like :

*Committee/Chairman*: can you describe the series of events on that hole?
*Accused : *hit my tee shot, played my 2nd shot, played 3rd shot, 2 putted for a par
*Accusor*: no you didn't you used a leather wedge then using your club gave yourself a better lie
*Committee/Chairman:* what have you to say against these accusations and the fact you signed for a now wrong score thus cheating the field
*Accused*: That didn't happen he's lying clearly go it in for me,
*Accusor* it did happen you cheated this is what you did (describes again the incident)
*Accused: *no that didn't happen at all you're making it  up what's your problem with me, and are the chairman and committee who have no evidence of this going to take this man's word over mine when he clearly has a personal issue with me

If in that scenario happens they cannot rule he has has cheated even if he has because there is no other witness & the scorecard becomes inconsequential evidence as the accused has given a version of events. There is then a case of being made guilty before his right of reply and the guilt by association of other playing because of the email and its wording. Whatever happens here on in the club does not come out it this very well regardless even if the guy is guilty of cheating..

I've paraphrased a lot there but it's essentially what's likely to happen and the chairman has now caused issues with any likely meeting or worse action against the club with his ridiculous email


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Doesn't matter what his card says until he has been offered a right of reply to the accusation made. Guilty or not he has this right, he could even potentially say it simply didn't happen and if its one word v another they can't prove either way without being impartial and taking sides regardless of what the scorecard shows and what the other guy knows he saw.
		
Click to expand...

It very much matters what the card says because if it had shown no score then the issue should have stopped there. I havenâ€™t disagreed that he has a right of reply or that it has been potentially handled badly, I merely pointed out that he has said that he completed that hole in 5 shots in keeping with the rules of golf by signing for that score, and that is fundamental to the issue.


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Just thinking about this more I can imagine the meeting if it were to take place now would be something like :

*Committee/Chairman*: can you describe the series of events on that hole?
*Accused : *hit my tee shot, played my 2nd shot, played 3rd shot, 2 putted for a par
*Accusor*: no you didn't you used a leather wedge then using your club gave yourself a better lie
*Committee/Chairman:* what have you to say against these accusations and the fact you signed for a now wrong score thus cheating the field
*Accused*: That didn't happen he's lying clearly go it in for me,
*Accusor* it did happen you cheated this is what you did (describes again the incident)
*Accused: *no that didn't happen at all you're making it  up what's your problem with me, and are the chairman and committee who have no evidence of this going to take this man's word over mine when he clearly has a personal issue with me

If in that scenario happens they cannot rule he has has chested even if he has because there is no other witness & the scorecard becomes inconsequential evidence as the accused has given a version of events. There is then a case of being made guilty before his right of reply and the guilt by association of other playing because eif the email and its wording. Whatever happens here on in the club does not come out it this very well regardless of the guy being guilty of cheating..

I've paraphrased a lot there but it's essentially what's likely to happen and the chairman has now caused issues with nay likely meeting or worse action against the club with his ridiculous ema
		
Click to expand...

In short the club have dug themselves a massive hole by sending this email out. Seems a bit schoolteacher-like, "if you own up and apologise all will be forgiven". But it doesn't really work like that. All they've done is back the culprit into a corner. Speaking to him directly would have been more sensible, just say we've had an anonymous tip-off that you did this that and the other and want to hear your side of the story or explanation.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It very much matters what the card says because if it had shown no score then the issue should have stopped there. I havenâ€™t disagreed that he has a right of reply or that it has been potentially handled badly, I merely pointed out that he has said that he completed that hole in 5 shots in keeping with the rules of golf by signing for that score, and that is fundamental to the issue.
		
Click to expand...

Not saying you have BIM, I'm just pointing out that regardless what the card says of the player in question gives an answer to his score the card become irrelevant because its then the word of the Accusor against the accused and that simply wouldn't be enough to pass sentence so to speak without taking a side. They can't say to him he has signed a wrong score or use the card without further proof or another witness.

You are right if it showed no score definitely no case, but even with it if the guy gives an account of his score and denies the allegation without taking sides the club cannot judge him, and if they take sides he can thanks to the email that effectively tells him he cheated use that against the club that he was hauled in as guilty before chance to speak thus meaning they took sides and not a fair trial so to speak


----------



## robinthehood (Jul 9, 2019)

Oof people cheat at golf. They really do, i have seen them.


----------



## Dibby (Jul 9, 2019)

The danger is that the guy actually is innocent, but his identity has already been partially inferred, and some, but not all, of the facts of the incident, have been published.

Whilst maybe unlikely, it's possible he went in the long grass, found a ball that wasn't his and kicked it out flicked it towards his bag with a club, then carried on looking, found his ball, and actually did make par, but now he has been tarnished without even having a chance to present his side.


----------



## robinthehood (Jul 9, 2019)

Dibby said:



			The danger is that the guy actually is innocent, but his identity has already been partially inferred, and some, but not all, of the facts of the incident, have been published.

Whilst maybe unlikely, it's possible he went in the long grass, found a ball that wasn't his and kicked it out flicked it towards his bag with a club, then carried on looking, found his ball, and actually did make par, but now he has been tarnished without even having a chance to present his side.
		
Click to expand...

Or he is a straight up cheat and has been busted.


----------



## GB72 (Jul 9, 2019)

Have to agree, this has been handled pretty badly so far with a clear presumption of guilt. It seems to ignore points like:

1. Did the incident actually happen. Does the person have an axe to grind with the person being accused.
2. Why was it not raised on the course, yes you can argue that it was to avoid confrontation etc but, equally, it could be that the incident never happened. 
3. Has the scorecard been checked to see if a score was returned for that hole. 
4. Did anyone else see anything. Did the playing partner not have any concerns that a member of the group was standing 40 yards ahead of him whilst is was playing his shot. 
5. The accuser has already implied the punishment expected by stating that he would not play in any group with this person in. Basically asking for the person to be removed from the club. Again, could imply an axe to grind and that this person is not wanted as a member. 

I can sort of see why the action was taken, giving the person a chance to step forward, confess and, perhaps, resign from the club without and fuss or without the legal implication of calling someone a cheat with only unsupported hearsay evidence to rely on. That said, if that happened then a potential cheat would be free to join elsewhere with a clear record. 

Anyway, as I see it, the evidence available would not stand up to the more basic 'balance of probabilities' applied to a civil trial let alone being proved beyond reasonable doubt. Think this is an attempt to take the committee out of the firing line in a delicate and fractious situation that has only made matters worse.


----------



## Dibby (Jul 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Or he is a straight up cheat and has been busted.
		
Click to expand...

That's also an option, but no one here (unless the guy happens to post on this forum) can definitely say either way, which is the entire point.


----------



## Siolag (Jul 9, 2019)

Dibby said:



			The danger is that the guy actually is innocent, but his identity has already been partially inferred, and some, but not all, of the facts of the incident, have been published.

Whilst maybe unlikely, it's possible he went in the long grass, found a ball that wasn't his and kicked it out flicked it towards his bag with a club, then carried on looking, found his ball, and actually did make par, but now he has been tarnished without even having a chance to present his side.
		
Click to expand...

If he has done that, itâ€™s extremely foolish to have done so in a competition and might have ruined someone elseâ€™s round.


----------



## robinthehood (Jul 9, 2019)

Dibby said:



			That's also an option, but no one here (unless the guy happens to post on this forum) can definitely say either way, which is the entire point.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly....


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jul 9, 2019)

Siolag said:



			If he has done that, itâ€™s extremely foolish to have done so in a competition and might have ruined someone elseâ€™s round.
		
Click to expand...

That would be practising on the course would it not.
General penalty is DQ unless this has changed , so his 5 would be a wrong score.
Itâ€™s very unprofessional from the club and as such gives the guy a chance to get away with it depending on his defence strategy.
But 1-1 is not good enough for all the reasons stated.
Very messy and could lead to an innocent player in the same group being accused.


----------



## Dibby (Jul 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That would be practising on the course would it not.
General penalty is DQ unless this has changed , so his 5 would be a wrong score.
Itâ€™s very unprofessional from the club and as such gives the guy a chance to get away with it depending on his defence strategy.
But 1-1 is not good enough for all the reasons stated.
Very messy and could lead to an innocent player in the same group being accused.
		
Click to expand...

People would consider flicking a ball towards your bag practising? Surely not, otherwise picking the ball up with a wedge or putter would be the same.

The big omission so far, is there is no mention as to whether he actually hit a shot with the ball that was moved. Did the witness see him do this, and it's just not in the mail, or had the witness moved on by then, and only seen the prior events? That's the crux of this whole mess, we only know partially what has happened but already the executioner has been booked. The guy who reported it pulling out of future events just throws even more fuel on the already out of control fire.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jul 9, 2019)

Dibby said:



			People would consider flicking a ball towards your bag practising? Surely not, otherwise picking the ball up with a wedge or putter would be the same.

The big omission so far, is there is no mention as to whether he actually hit a shot with the ball that was moved. Did the witness see him do this, and it's just not in the mail, or had the witness moved on by then, and only seen the prior events? That's the crux of this whole mess, we only know partially what has happened but already the executioner has been booked. The guy who reported it pulling out of future events just throws even more fuel on the already out of control fire.
		
Click to expand...

We are talking technicalities and playing a shot to your bag with a found ball during the play of a hole would be deemed just that.

Yes agree with the rest.


----------



## Springveldt (Jul 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It very much matters what the card says because if it had shown no score then the issue should have stopped there. I havenâ€™t disagreed that he has a right of reply or that it has been potentially handled badly, I merely pointed out that he has said that he completed that hole in 5 shots in keeping with the rules of golf by signing for that score, and that is fundamental to the issue.
		
Click to expand...

But if there is only 1 guy making the accusation and he defends himself by saying it didn't happen then he has signed for a correct scorecard.

The email from the club has already gave a guilty verdict all the guy can do now is either ignore it and put up with tongues wagging or go and say to the chairman "that didn't happen" and at that point you have a word v word battle.

The club should have never sent out the first email, you can't judge someone guilty without letting them defend themselves on the word of a single person, even if he is a filthy cheat.


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Or he is a straight up cheat and has been busted.
		
Click to expand...

The point is he cannot be 'busted' unless he accepts responsibility, or a second witness comes forward, because it will be one man's word against his. No proof.


----------



## Siolag (Jul 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			We are talking technicalities and playing a shot to your bag with a found ball during the play of a hole would be deemed just that.

Yes agree with the rest.
		
Click to expand...

I meant foolish because the automatic assumption from anyone watching such an action would be 'That's cheating' rather than 'Oh look someone is practising on the course'.


----------



## mister v (Jul 9, 2019)

believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
The original email sent out by the club does sound as if he's been found guilty end off discussion.
Im not a fan of cheats, and golf is really a sport where your honesty is relied upon very heavily. 
I do think that the club in question could have handled it differently, and i feel sorry for the groups in and around the area who may have been brought into this debate while being perfectly innocent.
If the guy has cheated then he deserves his comeuppance, but as im innocent im going to sue!!!!


----------



## Fabia999 (Jul 9, 2019)

I think the club has came out the way they have to scare the "guilty party" into admitting it because they know if it goes to a disciplinary hearing its just one word against another.


----------



## Slab (Jul 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



*That would be practising on the course would it not.*
General penalty is DQ unless this has changed , so his 5 would be a wrong score.
Itâ€™s very unprofessional from the club and as such gives the guy a chance to get away with it depending on his defence strategy.
But 1-1 is not good enough for all the reasons stated.
Very messy and could lead to an innocent player in the same group being accused.
		
Click to expand...

Totally off topic; I've always liked that you can hit a ball back towards the practice area from the fairway and its not practicing (some still do a double-take at you)


----------



## Dasit (Jul 9, 2019)

Perhaps cheating did happen.

But a witness statement needs to be taken with caution.

So often what a person sees is not actually what is happening. This is potentially life changing for a member at a golf club, being accused of cheating. Losing friends, family, being outcasted. 

Can the witness be 100%?


----------



## robinthehood (Jul 9, 2019)

Slab said:



			Totally off topic; I've always liked that you can hit a ball back towards the practice area from the fairway and its not practicing (some still do a double-take at you)
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm I'd be careful with that one.....if you set up as you would normally and play a shot you'll be in trouble.


----------



## Siolag (Jul 9, 2019)

Slab said:



			Totally off topic; I've always liked that you can hit a ball back towards the practice area from the fairway and its not practicing (some still do a double-take at you)
		
Click to expand...

If you did that at my course, youâ€™d probably end up with a bill for a windscreen!


----------



## Slab (Jul 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Hmmm I'd be careful with that one.....if you set up as you would normally and play a shot you'll be in trouble.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah i'd definitely stop short of lining it up & doing a PSR on it


----------



## robinthehood (Jul 9, 2019)

Slab said:



			Yeah i'd definitely stop short of lining it up & doing a PSR on it 

Click to expand...

Anything more than a casual flick really.


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Anything more than a casual flick really.
		
Click to expand...

But if you're down by the driving range and you've got range balls all sitting there, the only way you'd get them back over the fence is by hitting a full lob wedge pretty much?


----------



## robinthehood (Jul 9, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			But if you're down by the driving range and you've got range balls all sitting there, the only way you'd get them back over the fence is by hitting a full lob wedge pretty much?
		
Click to expand...

Or don't hit them ðŸ˜‰


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Or don't hit them ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

So tempting when they're just sat there though isn't it? Just waiting to be hit.


----------



## Slab (Jul 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Anything more than a casual flick really.
		
Click to expand...

'hitting' it is still fine, which i think is a good bit more than 'flicking' it

edit: just looked it up to refresh my memory. hitting it is OK there's no description that it should only be flicked or one handed etc. I think its more about the intent of hitting it, if its as a courtesy to the course its fine (obviously not fine if the intent is to get a sneaky practice strike)


----------



## Sats (Jul 9, 2019)

What if he does come forward and denies it - there is no more evidence to irrefutably prove it happened as it is to disprove it didn't. It would be one persons word against the other. Then what, trail by combat? I'm not condoning cheating - but the informant should've done something there and then or on the day itself then it could have been addressed there and then.


----------



## Jacko_G (Jul 9, 2019)

Oh brilliant, another cheating thread, best pop out to Tesco (other supermarkets are available) for some more popcorn.


----------



## trevor (Jul 9, 2019)

If he came forward to deny it then surely heâ€™s admitting he is the one that has been seen doing something so how can he then deny doing nothing. If heâ€™s going to deny doing anything by coming forward now heâ€™s admitting doing something wrong.


----------



## richbeech (Jul 9, 2019)

Interesting that a thread like this should pop up as unfortunately we've just had a case of cheating at our club. My club dealt with it differently to the one in the OP; they simply called the player to a meeting with the committee to respond to the allegations. In this case though it was pretty cut and dry. He had been reported by 3 separate people doing the exact same thing (kicking his ball out of rough and improving his lie). What was funny is that he denied the allegations but then just took his 3 month ban no questions asked. It left me feeling very disappointed in the individual because he was a very good Cat 1 golfer and someone I had played with on a few occasions and enjoyed playing with.


----------



## sunshine (Jul 9, 2019)

trevor said:



			If he came forward to deny it then surely heâ€™s admitting he is the one that has been seen doing something so how can he then deny doing nothing. If heâ€™s going to deny doing anything by coming forward now heâ€™s admitting doing something wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Huh?


----------



## sunshine (Jul 9, 2019)

Slab said:



			'hitting' it is still fine, which i think is a good bit more than 'flicking' it

edit: just looked it up to refresh my memory. hitting it is OK there's no description that it should only be flicked or one handed etc. I think its more about the intent of hitting it, if its as a courtesy to the course its fine (obviously not fine if the intent is to get a sneaky practice strike)
		
Click to expand...

This is interesting. In my first ever round at a new club, playing for handicap, I flicked a ball back towards the driving range as I walked up the 1st fairway. It was a casual one handed flick, and my playing partners raced over and told me this constituted practicing on the course. Made me feel really welcome. Was this rubbish? It was over 10 years ago mind.


----------



## Slab (Jul 9, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Huh?

Click to expand...

I think the mail only says it wants him to come forward to admit guilt. So if he wanted to come forward because he's actually innocent or wishes to claim he's innocent then the email does not allow for that


----------



## sunshine (Jul 9, 2019)

Dasit said:



			Perhaps cheating did happen.

But a witness statement needs to be taken with caution.

So often what a person sees is not actually what is happening. This is potentially life changing for a member at a golf club, being accused of cheating. Losing friends, family, being outcasted.

Can the witness be 100%?
		
Click to expand...

So what happens when someone is found guilty of cheating? Why is it so bad? Genuine question.


----------



## Grant85 (Jul 9, 2019)

Doesn't seem like this has been handled very well by the club. 

If it had been me I would have asked the person to come to the club for a private meeting with 2 senior committee members. Tried to sound them out and get them to admit their actions, with a reasonably lenient punishment of a ban from competitions for a few months, or a suspended ban and telling them that nothing would be made public. 

The catch all e-mail makes it far less likely they will get an admission out of him. Also fires up the rumour mill. 

And as plenty of said, if he decides to play hard ball when confronted it becomes 1 persons word against another which doesn't result in any kind of outcome for the accuser, the accused or the club.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2019)

Springveldt said:



			But if there is only 1 guy making the accusation and he defends himself by saying it didn't happen then he has signed for a correct scorecard.

The email from the club has already gave a guilty verdict all the guy can do now is either ignore it and put up with tongues wagging or go and say to the chairman "that didn't happen" and at that point you have a word v word battle.

The club should have never sent out the first email, you can't judge someone guilty without letting them defend themselves on the word of a single person, even if he is a filthy cheat.
		
Click to expand...

So defend yourself. The deafening silence (as reported) speaks volumes.


----------



## robinthehood (Jul 9, 2019)

sunshine said:



			This is interesting. In my first ever round at a new club, playing for handicap, I flicked a ball back towards the driving range as I walked up the 1st fairway. It was a casual one handed flick, and my playing partners raced over and told me this constituted practicing on the course. Made me feel really welcome. Was this rubbish? It was over 10 years ago mind.
		
Click to expand...

What you did was fine. I would steer away from anything that looks like a proper shot.


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Oh brilliant, another cheating thread, best pop out to Tesco (other supermarkets are available) for some more popcorn.
		
Click to expand...

Could you get me some Dorito's and a dip. If I give you my Clubcard you could get my points added...


----------



## yandabrown (Jul 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What you did was fine. I would steer away from anything that looks like a proper shot.
		
Click to expand...

If I kicked it, would I be guilty of practicing my leather wedge?


----------



## Jacko_G (Jul 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Doesn't seem like this has been handled very well by the club.

If it had been me I would have asked the person to come to the club for a private meeting with 2 senior committee members. Tried to sound them out and get them to admit their actions, with a reasonably lenient punishment of a ban from competitions for a few months, or a suspended ban and telling them that nothing would be made public.

The catch all e-mail makes it far less likely they will get an admission out of him. Also fires up the rumour mill.

And as plenty of said, if he decides to play hard ball when confronted it becomes 1 persons word against another which doesn't result in any kind of outcome for the accuser, the accused or the club.
		
Click to expand...

Can't do that. 

It's one persons word against another. You need corroboration.


----------



## JohnnyDee (Jul 9, 2019)

Can I just point out that in The Chairman's original email he writes _cheated by kicking their ball out of the tree's... _

Surely that too is an issue requiring that he be hauled up to account for himself?

Cheating at golf is one thing but the incorrect use of an apostrophe by a senior club official is beyond the pale.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Can't do that.

It's one persons word against another. You need corroboration.
		
Click to expand...

Didnâ€™t seem to need corroboration at Court, Magistrates seemed to be able to make a decision.


----------



## Captainron (Jul 9, 2019)

sunshine said:



			So what happens when someone is found guilty of cheating? Why is it so bad? Genuine question.
		
Click to expand...

Would you want to play against or with a â€œconvictedâ€ cheat? The stigma attached is massive and it sticks with you for life


----------



## chrisd (Jul 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Didnâ€™t seem to need corroboration at Court, Magistrates seemed to be able to make a decision.
		
Click to expand...

I've done Small Claims Court on a few occasions and my experience was the same, both sides give their side of the story and the adjudicator gives his verdict


----------



## IainP (Jul 9, 2019)

Surely the important question is, were the accused or accuser using digital timing devices?
I think we should be told! ðŸ˜‰


Sorry..


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2019)

Blimey not sure where to start apart from i would suggest this wasnâ€™t put on the forum in the manner It has been - doesnâ€™t put many people in good light and has the potential to cause a lot of damage , especially putting the chairmanâ€™s words on 

Mainly the way he has gone about it all is poor , broadcasting to the club is shocking and shows a lack of common sense and indeed control of the club , pity the members


----------



## Grant85 (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Can't do that.

It's one persons word against another. You need corroboration.
		
Click to expand...

I'm aware, hence with a private meeting and potential offer of a lenient penalty - you may elicit a confession. 

With going public straight away, you are less likely to get any kind of conclusion - in my opinion.


----------



## Doh (Jul 9, 2019)

The basic problem here is this club and I am sure it happens at most clubs is that they don't have a policy or procedure that supports them to deal with these situations or if they do they are not aware of it.


----------



## Jacko_G (Jul 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Didnâ€™t seem to need corroboration at Court, Magistrates seemed to be able to make a decision.
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully Scottish Law is clearly a more balanced place then.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Thankfully Scottish Law is clearly a more balanced place then.
		
Click to expand...

I take it you are referring to the stigma that is the Not Proven verdict?


----------



## Jacko_G (Jul 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I take it you are referring to the stigma that is the Not Proven verdict?
		
Click to expand...

Negative. 

Merely the fact that you require some proof or evidence rather than an allegation.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Negative.

Merely the fact that you require some proof or evidence rather than an allegation.
		
Click to expand...

As you do in England and Wales.


----------



## Jacko_G (Jul 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			As you do in England and Wales.
		
Click to expand...

Therefore you require evidence of cheating so you're going round in circles.


----------



## GB72 (Jul 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I've done Small Claims Court on a few occasions and my experience was the same, both sides give their side of the story and the adjudicator gives his verdict
		
Click to expand...

But in most cases there is some form of evidence to produce rather than just simple hearsay


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Therefore you require evidence of cheating so you're going round in circles.
		
Click to expand...

Which is more often that not the testimony of whoever witnessed the offence as we have here, so no, Iâ€™m not going round in circles. 

I am however out for the evening so Iâ€™m leaving it there.


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Negative.

Merely the fact that you require some proof or evidence rather than an allegation.
		
Click to expand...

No different in courts in the rest of UK!

Unfortunately, the 'life penalty' that is the stigma of 'cheating at Golf' doesn't (appear to) require the same level of certainty. The Club/Chairman appears to have handled this incident extremely badly!


----------



## chrisd (Jul 9, 2019)

GB72 said:



			But in most cases there is some form of evidence to produce rather than just simple hearsay
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully so, but it's often one persons word against another


----------



## Jacko_G (Jul 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No different in courts in the rest of UK!

Unfortunately, the 'life penalty' that is the stigma of 'cheating at Golf' doesn't (appear to) require the same level of certainty. The Club/Chairman appears to have handled this incident extremely badly!
		
Click to expand...

While I agree it's not an ideal situation. One persons word against another isn't going to stand up in any court never mind allow a golf club to make any form decisions/take any action unless the person who is alleged to have "cheated" makes any sort of admission which I would suspect is very unlikely. 

So all said - I'll stand by my statement that you require some sort of corroboration to take decisive action as at present the only option that I can see being open to the club is pull the person in and ask for their side of the story.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jul 9, 2019)

Hmm who was it said there is a difference between not knowing the rules and cheating. Am sure said leather wedge exponent knew kicking a ball is not allowed and comes With the said Tag of Cheat.
We can all give our opinions of what could and should of been done in handling this. However Tashyboy is off to Tesco to get some Popcorn  before they tun out. Looking forward to see how this pans out. â€œ Put me down for a four for threeðŸ˜‰â€


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			While I agree it's not an ideal situation. One persons word against another isn't going to stand up in any court never mind allow a golf club to make any form decisions/take any action unless the person who is alleged to have "cheated" makes any sort of admission which I would suspect is very unlikely.

So all said - I'll stand by my statement that you require some sort of corroboration to take decisive action as at present the only option that I can see being open to the club is pull the person in and ask for their side of the story.
		
Click to expand...

And I agree with the above.

But you mentioned 'Scottish Law' (note the capital 'L')! Was that what you really meant? Scottish Law is no different to Law elsewhere in the UK, save for the 'Not Proven' verdict BiM mentioned. Golf Clubs anywhere in the UK are capable of making daft/disastrous decisions, as I believe has happened here!


----------



## Bazzatron (Jul 9, 2019)

I've read all 5 pages and if I don't get closure on this story and it just dies a death, I won't be able to sleep.


----------



## Sats (Jul 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I've done Small Claims Court on a few occasions and my experience was the same, both sides give their side of the story and the adjudicator gives his verdict
		
Click to expand...

Small claims/County court is civil = outcomes based upon the balance of probability. Magistrates court/Crown criminal - beyond all reasonable doubt. Massive difference regarding the burden of proof.


----------



## User20204 (Jul 9, 2019)

6 pages of which I'm not going to go thru however, this is a very similar incident that happened at my club recently that I started a topic about. I've since heard there was two witnesses to said incident but have heard no more on it. It's my opinion, if two witnesses saw it, then, in our clubs issue, it should be dealt with, it may have been and all has gone quiet. 

In regards this particular incident, if only one witness, then the accused can plead ignorance and deny it and then what ?


----------



## williamalex1 (Jul 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Hmm who was it said there is a difference between not knowing the rules and cheating. Am sure said leather wedge exponent knew kicking a ball is not allowed and comes With the said Tag of Cheat.
We can all give our opinions of what could and should of been done in handling this. However Tashyboy is off to Tesco to get some Popcorn  before they tun out. Looking forward to see how this pans out. â€œ Put me down for a four for threeðŸ˜‰â€
		
Click to expand...

Me too , gonna be a good discussion between 2 cops discussing rights and wrongs


----------



## Tashyboy (Jul 9, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Me too , gonna be a good discussion between 2 cops discussing rights and wrongs  

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ right ave enough to get me through the night.


----------



## williamalex1 (Jul 9, 2019)

The mistake the chairman [and the additional email ] made , was giving too much detailed info of the times and location of the alleged offence,  virtually outing the accused.
A simple email to all stating " It been brought to our attention that a well known member has been spotted cheating  {using a left handed leather wedge } we know who you are, and we're watching you ".

This is your final warning williamalex1


----------



## GasMan (Jul 9, 2019)

Anyone who is unprofessional enough to circulate an email like this to the membership is a liability IMHO. It smacks of the old school clique and with the right solicitors involved could end the financial viability of a club. 

Thereâ€™s a few things that would potentially make this situation much worse if the alleged cheat were to protest their innocence. 

What if the alleged cheat has their membership paid via a finance agreement? Should their presumed guilt make their use of that product untenable or they be denied access to the product, the FCA could be VERY interested. Iâ€™m sure with the precarious position a lot of golf clubs find themselves in these days, this can of worms doesnâ€™t need opening!

From a 3rd party perspective, the potential impact via defamation, associated financial impact and potential to affect future employment/business lost is monstrous. 

What if the accuser(s) can be implied to have motive? Emphasis on the word implied as short of video proof of the aforementioned cheating, even witness testimony can only be an implication and not proof. 

What if the accused is daring to voice concerns against the established running of the club/committees/other issues and needs to be discredited? The easiest way to silence a dissenting voice is to destroy their credibility. When established people are threatened, this sort of ruse is all to easy to play out. 

I despair that any committee canâ€™t see that issues like this must be dealt with anonymity and behind closed doors.


----------



## User20204 (Jul 9, 2019)

GasMan said:



			What if the alleged cheat has their membership paid via a finance agreement? Should their presumed guilt make their use of that product untenable or they be denied access to the product, the FCA could be VERY interested. Iâ€™m sure with the precarious position a lot of golf clubs find themselves in these days, this can of worms doesnâ€™t need opening!
		
Click to expand...

Your post is excellent though the quote above I would say, if you have paid your membership via a finance agreement, then that's not the clubs issue I'd have thought, your contract is with the finance company not the club, much like a personal loan but not like hp loan on a car.


----------



## drdel (Jul 9, 2019)

Clearly the chairman jumped the gun and shot himself and the club. The 'cheating' is merely a claim by one person. The public pursuit of the possible cheater was a really silly move. It almost ensures that the person must come back hard as it is the only choice left to him/her and their playing partners to clear their names.

 The golfer has been defamed in the absence of proof and it could rightly cost these individuals (chairman and the informant) a bunch of cash for jumping in without very firm evidence.


----------



## sunshine (Jul 10, 2019)

Captainron said:



			Would you want to play against or with a â€œconvictedâ€ cheat? The stigma attached is massive and it sticks with you for life
		
Click to expand...

In all likelihood I wouldn't know I was playing with a cheat. I don't get involved in the cliques and politics at my club, and I suspect the same goes for the majority of members. Maybe he just quietly moves to another club if it's a big deal. Losing family and friends? Is leather wedge grounds for divorce?


----------



## Captainron (Jul 10, 2019)

sunshine said:



			In all likelihood I wouldn't know I was playing with a cheat. I don't get involved in the cliques and politics at my club, and I suspect the same goes for the majority of members. Maybe he just quietly moves to another club if it's a big deal. Losing family and friends? Is leather wedge grounds for divorce?
		
Click to expand...

In all likelihood you would know. That sort of information would travel around golfing circles fairly quickly. And yes there have been times when this sort of thing has lead to people losing friends (not sure about divorce but it is possible)

Clubs also donâ€™t want to have known cheats playing at them as this invariably rubs off on the club. So any new club would probably refuse that persons membership application.

Matches and competitions the person has played in the past are all thrown into doubt because everyone would think that cheating may have occurred then and wasnâ€™t picked up.

Being caught cheating would have unbelievable consequences for the perpetrator.


----------



## chrisd (Jul 10, 2019)

I agree wholeheartedly that the club has acted irresponsibly in putting out the emails that they have. The problem being that club officials dont need to be solicitors or the like and can easily think they're doing the right thing before finding out that they've dropped their club well and truly in the doo doo. Clubs really do need to to look at their top officials and maybe draw up some sort of code to deal with these matters so that Major General Blithering Eejit doesn't bankrupt the club with one stupid email


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I agree wholeheartedly that the club has acted irresponsibly in putting out the emails that they have. The problem being that club officials dont need to be solicitors or the like and can easily think they're doing the right thing before finding out that they've dropped their club well and truly in the doo doo. Clubs really do need to to look at their top officials and maybe draw up some sort of code to deal with these matters so that Major General Blithering Eejit doesn't bankrupt the club with one stupid email
		
Click to expand...

There's off the shelf HR/business packages that can be bought very cheaply which cover disciplinary processes. I know of 2 clubs that went down this route. The package also includes xx amount of free advice. There's no excuse for stupidity by the club, well intentioned amateurs or not.


----------



## sunshine (Jul 10, 2019)

Captainron said:



			In all likelihood you would know. That sort of information would travel around golfing circles fairly quickly. And yes there have been times when this sort of thing has lead to people losing friends (not sure about divorce but it is possible)

Clubs also donâ€™t want to have known cheats playing at them as this invariably rubs off on the club. So any new club would probably refuse that persons membership application.

Matches and competitions the person has played in the past are all thrown into doubt because everyone would think that cheating may have occurred then and wasnâ€™t picked up.

Being caught cheating would have unbelievable consequences for the perpetrator.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting.

In these times of austerity, with clubs struggling to get by, I'm sure many clubs would accept a new member no questions asked. It depends on the club of course.
And surely the previous club would not provide a negative reference for fear of being sued. (Although in this instance it seems the club doesn't care about this sort of stuff).

Losing friends? If one of my friends was caught cheating it wouldn't change my friendship with him, I'd give them some stick but that's about it. However I do acknowledge that it would have a significant impact on acquaintances.
Losing family? My family couldn't care less what I do on the golf course. In fact my wife would be really happy if I was kicked out of a club and couldn't play for a while


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jul 10, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Interesting.

In these times of austerity, with clubs struggling to get by, I'm sure many clubs would accept a new member no questions asked. It depends on the club of course.
And surely the previous club would not provide a negative reference for fear of being sued. (Although in this instance it seems the club doesn't care about this sort of stuff).

Losing friends? If one of my friends was caught cheating it wouldn't change my friendship with him, I'd give them some stick but that's about it. However I do acknowledge that it would have a significant impact on acquaintances.
Losing family? My family couldn't care less what I do on the golf course. In fact my wife would be really happy if I was kicked out of a club and couldn't play for a while 

Click to expand...

If my mate was caught cheating I would not be happy .
All the fivers I have lost to him plus a couple of drinks.
I would be having more than a word I think.


----------



## Orikoru (Jul 10, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Interesting.

In these times of austerity, with clubs struggling to get by, I'm sure many clubs would accept a new member no questions asked. It depends on the club of course.
And surely the previous club would not provide a negative reference for fear of being sued. (Although in this instance it seems the club doesn't care about this sort of stuff).

*Losing friends? If one of my friends was caught cheating it wouldn't change my friendship with him, I'd give them some stick but that's about it. However I do acknowledge that it would have a significant impact on acquaintances.*
Losing family? My family couldn't care less what I do on the golf course. In fact my wife would be really happy if I was kicked out of a club and couldn't play for a while 

Click to expand...

That's a funny one to think about actually. If it was one of my friends that I knew from outside of golf, then like you I would probably berate them but it wouldn't affect our friendship at all. If it was someone I'd actually met through golf though I probably would shy away from them a bit. Perhaps because I would know slightly less about them as a person and golf makes up a larger section of their character in my mind.


----------



## Wolf (Jul 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			That's a funny one to think about actually. If it was one of my friends that I knew from outside of golf, then like you I would probably berate them but it wouldn't affect our friendship at all. If it was someone I'd actually met through golf though I probably would shy away from them a bit. Perhaps because I would know slightly less about them as a person and golf makes up a larger section of their character in my mind.
		
Click to expand...

It is awkward when you know somebody well that has cheated. I mentioned few month back on a similar thread I witnessed  blatant leather wedge cheating, I was a mere junior about   21years ago, playing in a men's comp when I witnessed the incident & the person then claimed a lower score than they had on their card I was marking. It was also witnessed independently by another in our group an one on an adjacent hole. Needless to say I refused sign the card and they were reported by the other 2 members and I was hauled in to give witness statement. They denied it but all 3 witness stories corroborated each other and that person was advised they're no longer welcome at the club and had to leave. All this time later that person barely speaks to me because of the incident, that person will also be at my wedding in 4 weeks time even though we barely exchange words., because they couldn't believe I had the audacity to speak out against them. The reason behind it that person in question happens to be my older brother! He is still a phenomenal golfer playing off 1 now I believe but we've never played together since as his talent is overshadowed by his character. You can only imagine how hard it was for my dad in that situation, it caused so much friction as he took my side because it had been witnessed & reported by others and he has always believed in doing the right thing regardless. 

The other thing I do find interesting in life is we likely all know someone that has cheated in a relationship but we forgive & forget but if that person cheats on the golf course that's it we're done with them forever ðŸ˜‚


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jul 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			It is awkward when you know somebody well that has cheated. I mentioned few month back on a similar thread I witnessed  blatant leather wedge cheating, I was a mere junior about   21years ago, playing in a men's comp when I witnessed the incident & the person then claimed a lower score than they had on their card I was marking. It was also witnessed independently by another in our group an one on an adjacent hole. Needless to say I refused sign the card and they were reported by the other 2 members and I was hauled in to give witness statement. They denied it but all 3 witness stories corroborated each other and that person was advised they're no longer welcome at the club and had to leave. All this time later that person barely speaks to me because of the incident, that person will also be at my wedding in 4 weeks time even though we barely exchange words., because they couldn't believe I had the audacity to speak out against them. The reason behind it that person in question happens to be my older brother! He is still a phenomenal golfer playing off 1 now I believe but we've never played together since as his talent is overshadowed by his character. You can only imagine how hard it was for my dad in that situation, it caused so much friction as he took my side because it had been witnessed & reported by others and he has always believed in doing the right thing regardless.

The other thing I do find interesting in life is we likely all know someone that has cheated in a relationship but we forgive & forget but if that person cheats on the golf course that's it we're done with them forever ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s a good point ,I have known people cheat on wives and girlfriends and thought itâ€™s none of my business.
But cheating at golf?
It sounds trivial really , but your there to protect the field so you must speak out.


----------



## Italian outcast (Jul 10, 2019)

So what is worse?
Your wife cheating on you 
Your wife taking a secret mulligan and taking a fiver from you  
Perhaps we need a poll


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jul 10, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			So what is worse?
Your wife cheating on you 
Your wife taking a secret mulligan and taking a fiver from you  
Perhaps we need a poll 

Click to expand...

Mines not interested in either???


----------



## GasMan (Jul 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Your post is excellent though the quote above I would say, if you have paid your membership via a finance agreement, then that's not the clubs issue I'd have thought, your contract is with the finance company not the club, much like a personal loan but not like hp loan on a car.
		
Click to expand...

It all depends on how it is sold. With a car on HP you could be deprived if the use of the car via a legal process E.g. a ban for drink driving. If the club introduces a customer for finance and then does something to deprive the customer of the product without a solid legal footing ....... thatâ€™s a whole different ball game. 

Bottom line is that being ignorant of the consequences of your actions doesnâ€™t exonerate you or your business/entity from citation. This email was probably sent out by a retired teacher with a god complex who has never existed outside of a canned environment such as the education system.


----------



## bladeplayer (Jul 11, 2019)

Im looking forward to agm in new club this year . I plan to mention the members lack of awarness or understanding  of proper procedures under the rules of golf or what to do when a possible breach occurs ..ðŸ˜†


----------



## Britishshooting (Aug 20, 2019)

So just to update you all, we recieved this E-Mail yesterday.

I think the Chairman that tackled this incident in completely the wrong manor should 'learn from this'.


Dear Members

A meeting took place on Thursday 15th August to further discuss the cheating allegations made by a member on 23rd June 2019. The meeting was chaired by George W and in attendance were Richard C, Darrell S and Graham N along with the member who reported the incident and the member accused of cheating.


Both parties gave their version of events and said their piece. After some questions to both parties from the committee and further discussion, the accused repeatedly denied the allegations and the meeting was promptly closed.

As a committee we cannot take further action in this case as we only have one person's word against another person's, which does not constitute enough evidence for us to take any action other than to close the matter.

However, as members we can learn from this incident as follows:

â€¢ Be vigilant at all times on the golf course and be aware of what other players are doing.
â€¢ Be confident to approach people if you have a concern about what you have witnessed them doing, even if you are not 100% sure it is wrong, there may be a reasonable explanation such as they are not sure on a ruling.
â€¢ Be aware that we take cheating and allegations of cheating very seriously and will investigate all incidents that are reported to the committee.


----------



## Britishshooting (Aug 20, 2019)

Also just to add, the 'accused cheats' name is now public knowledge but plays every Saturday and Sunday, the person who reported the incident has been true to his word and not played in a single competition since the allegations were raised.


----------



## patricks148 (Aug 20, 2019)

Britishshooting said:



			Also just to add, the 'accused cheats' name is now public knowledge but plays every Saturday and Sunday, the person who reported the incident has been true to his word and not played in a single competition since the allegations were raised.
		
Click to expand...

isn't that just hurting the guy that reported him,??

i'm sure now everyone would watch him like a hawk and if they are a serial cheater it won't be long before they are caught again


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 20, 2019)

For me it is probably the correct outcome giving it was word v word. Said leather wedge has his card marked. Said person who saw leather wedge has stuck to his word and not  played in a comp that leather wedge is playing in. Time to close the door and move on. ðŸ‘


----------



## chrisd (Aug 20, 2019)

I'd agree that the final outcome was pretty much right but a better handling of the situation from the start would have been my expectation if it had happened at my place


----------



## inc0gnito (Aug 20, 2019)

Seems like he is hurting himself unnecessarily by not playing in competitions


----------



## Coffey (Aug 20, 2019)

Would be interesting to see if the accused scores have changed recently if people are not watching him. Have his scores gone up now he is being monitored?


----------



## Britishshooting (Aug 20, 2019)

Coffey said:



			Would be interesting to see if the accused scores have changed recently if people are not watching him. Have his scores gone up now he is being monitored?
		
Click to expand...

He plays in a regular 4ball, 2 are brothers, 1 is accused cheat other is a friend of the 3, there have always been rumours/obvious suspicions of them cheating.

They were ALWAYS last group out and on the 15th (close proximity to pro-shop) one of the party would always return to the pro shop, buy a bottle of water and quickly check the scores returned, take that as you will.

There were suspicions as each of the 4 man group won board comps out of 6 events, this span ran from mid last year until May when they enforced random draw.

Since random draw was enforced none of the mentioned have won anything when placed randomly, but seem to do extraordinarily well when playing together. It's almost too obvious, I know several of them by name but wouldn't know them by face to keep an eye on them etc.


----------



## Coffey (Aug 20, 2019)

Britishshooting said:



			He plays in a regular 4ball, 2 are brothers, 1 is accused cheat other is a friend of the 3, there have always been rumours/obvious suspicions of them cheating.

They were ALWAYS last group out and on the 15th (close proximity to pro-shop) one of the party would always return to the pro shop, buy a bottle of water and quickly check the scores returned, take that as you will.

There were suspicions as each of the 4 man group won board comps out of 6 events, this span ran from mid last year until May when they enforced random draw.

Since random draw was enforced none of the mentioned have won anything when placed randomly, but seem to do extraordinarily well when playing together. It's almost too obvious, I know several of them by name but wouldn't know them by face to keep an eye on them etc.
		
Click to expand...

Well that is very suspicious.

I have heard so many similar stories to this.

One guy looking to get his PGA. Playing off 5 magically goes away with his friend and shoots 5 under par to bring him to a 4 handicap.

Another guy who has one of the best handicaps in Ireland shot a 65 once yet not one person saw him on the course. Was asked to verify who the marker was (as it was unreadable) and could not remember as 'he shoots 65's all the time'.

And then the most recent one, involves a friend (friend 1) of mine who was seen leaving the first tee box alone. Another friend (friend 2) of mine spots him on the 12th and he spins a story that he was left by his PP. He did not mention to friend 2 that he was playing in a comp for the remaining holes. On the 12th hole he was playing 2 balls. Friend 2 did not sign the card yet it was submitted and he won the comp. You can clearly see on the scorecard where friend 2 joined up. Was all par's to hole 12 and then all bogies and one birdie after that. Friend 2 did not raise at the time as he did not know friend 1 was in the comp and did not want the stigma etc. Nothing has been said since as he hasn't played with us and it is not too late to raise.

Happens far more than you want to believe but as seen at your club, most of the time it is one word against another and impossible to prove.


----------



## Grant85 (Aug 20, 2019)

Britishshooting said:



			He plays in a regular 4ball, 2 are brothers, 1 is accused cheat other is a friend of the 3, there have always been rumours/obvious suspicions of them cheating.

They were ALWAYS last group out and on the 15th (close proximity to pro-shop) one of the party would always return to the pro shop, buy a bottle of water and quickly check the scores returned, take that as you will.

There were suspicions as each of the 4 man group won board comps out of 6 events, this span ran from mid last year until May when they enforced random draw.

Since random draw was enforced none of the mentioned have won anything when placed randomly, but seem to do extraordinarily well when playing together. It's almost too obvious, I know several of them by name but wouldn't know them by face to keep an eye on them etc.
		
Click to expand...

Very easy for golf to be manipulated like that. 

Solution is for all big Saturday competitions to be balloted entry so you can't manipulate who is marking your card. I'm happy to be in a club that has balloted entries but have been in a previous club that didn't and certainly this kind of behaviour was always rumoured with people playing with the same guys every week (and often at the same time). Given the culture that had built up with people playing with their mates, there was obviously some resistance when they started introducing balloted competitions.


----------



## ArnoldArmChewer (Aug 20, 2019)

We had an incident last week playing in a seniors open competition, the event was teams of 3 with best 2 scores counting + an individual comp.  The 3 of us were standing on a par 3 tee waiting for the green to clear.  directly behind us we saw a ball land, it transpires it was from the tee 3 holes ahead of us, the player arrived (by buggy) ahead of his PP's picked up his ball and threw it from the rough onto the fairway, he then proceeded to improve his lie on the fairway and play a very respectable shot onto the green.  We were certain that he didn't realise anyone was watching, so we called over to him to remind him he was in a comp and rules were there to be complied with, he pretended not to hear us and drove off smartishly.

Now it could be he was out of the hole (it was stableford), so at the time we let it go.  We decided if he or his PP's were called up for a prize we would question it, fortunately he/they were not so we did no more.  I am pretty sure he was cheating, so what do you do ?


----------



## Grant85 (Aug 20, 2019)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			We had an incident last week playing in a seniors open competition, the event was teams of 3 with best 2 scores counting + an individual comp.  The 3 of us were standing on a par 3 tee waiting for the green to clear.  directly behind us we saw a ball land, it transpires it was from the tee 3 holes ahead of us, the player arrived (by buggy) ahead of his PP's picked up his ball and threw it from the rough onto the fairway, he then proceeded to improve his lie on the fairway and play a very respectable shot onto the green.  We were certain that he didn't realise anyone was watching, so we called over to him to remind him he was in a comp and rules were there to be complied with, he pretended not to hear us and drove off smartishly.

Now it could be he was out of the hole (it was stableford), so at the time we let it go.  We decided if he or his PP's were called up for a prize we would question it, fortunately he/they were not so we did no more.  I am pretty sure he was cheating, so what do you do ?
		
Click to expand...

I agree, it's not a nice position to be in if you witness something like that. Potentially will escalate and create ill feeling at a golf club. 

Only saving grace in your situation was there was multiple witnesses, so you might feel a bit more comfortable approaching someone or reporting something. But if I was sole witness and didn't say anything at the time, for whatever reason, I doubt I would raise it. As the OP has said, it's going to create a lot of hassle and not much of an end result.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 20, 2019)

I would say this outcome will put people off reporting cheating .
Unless more than one witness is present .
As itâ€™s your word they are going to dismiss without further proof.
Weather they belive you or not .


----------



## User20204 (Aug 20, 2019)

If you are going to report buster you need corroboration and be prepared to take it all the way, otherwise, say nothing.


----------



## bladeplayer (Aug 20, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would say this outcome will put people off reporting cheating .
Unless more than one witness is present .
As itâ€™s your word they are going to dismiss without further proof.
Weather they belive you or not .
		
Click to expand...

This â¬†â¬†â¬† unless u have at least 1 more to back u up ur wasting ur time .. i told one of committee i cant wait til AGM to bring up lack of knowledge of rules . Email out this week . At end of email was people should familiarise themselves with the RoG .  and a link to a rules page ðŸ˜•ðŸ˜•


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 21, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would say this outcome will put people off reporting cheating .
Unless more than one witness is present .
As itâ€™s your word they are going to dismiss without further proof.
Weather they belive you or not .
		
Click to expand...

Its an inevitable outcome sadly. No-one will bother if they are sole witness and it goes to their word against another and all it will do is cause friction and animosity in the clubhouse


----------



## Jacko_G (Aug 21, 2019)

So this person has now been named and "shamed" without proper evidence.

How does the club stand legally now? Genuine question.


----------



## howbow88 (Aug 21, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Its an inevitable outcome sadly. No-one will bother if they are sole witness and it goes to their word against another and all it will do is cause friction and animosity in the clubhouse
		
Click to expand...

Yep. But I don't see a way around this... I am almost certain (99%) that I saw a guy looking for his ball in the woods, and he picked one out of his pocket and placed it down by some leaves. It was quite clever in the way he did it, as he said 'oh, this looks like it here.' He then bent down to look at it and moved the leaves out of the way. His hand though came from out of his pocket and I am certain that he had a ball in his hand when doing so. I was pretty shocked but what could I do? I was quite sure it had happened, but not 100% and no one else in our group was anywhere near us. 

Unfortunately, unless there are two witnesses, I don't think there's much that can happen.


----------



## Siolag (Aug 21, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			This â¬†â¬†â¬† unless u have at least 1 more to back u up ur wasting ur time .. i told one of committee i cant wait til AGM to bring up lack of knowledge of rules . Email out this week . At end of email was people should familiarise themselves with the RoG .  and a link to a rules page ðŸ˜•ðŸ˜•
		
Click to expand...

Surely there is a difference between not knowing all the rules and how to apply them, and outright cheating. There cant be a single person that steps out onto a  golf course that thinks dropping a ball from a pocket or kicking a ball onto the fairway is allowed.


----------



## bladeplayer (Aug 21, 2019)

Siolag said:



			Surely there is a difference between not knowing all the rules and how to apply them, and outright cheating. There cant be a single person that steps out onto a  golf course that thinks dropping a ball from a pocket or kicking a ball onto the fairway is allowed.
		
Click to expand...

I was trying to be diplomatic mate .


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 21, 2019)

Siolag said:



			Surely there is a difference between not knowing all the rules and how to apply them, and outright cheating. There cant be a single person that steps out onto a  golf course that thinks dropping a ball from a pocket or kicking a ball onto the fairway is allowed.
		
Click to expand...

They know itâ€™s not allowed they are cheating!


----------



## Siolag (Aug 21, 2019)

Apologies, I thought you meant other rule infractions.


----------

