# European Super League



## Sweep (Apr 19, 2021)

I will say, right from the start that I know very little about this and I would be genuinely grateful if someone would explain to me why everyone is so vehemently opposed to the formation of the European Super League.
As I understand it and according to the papers the “big 6” joining will still play in the Premier League (not sure how that will work, time wise), still put money into the lower leagues, but just play mid week against other super league clubs? So is this just a very radical revamp of the Champions League (which UEFA we revamping anyway)?
Why is this so bad for fans as is being shouted from the rooftops?
We have UEFA actually saying it’s the end of football forever! Players of these clubs banned from the Euros and World Cup. The PM saying it must be stopped. Gary Neville calling for his own club to be relegated. Every “proper” fan saying it’s terrible - and yet when I have asked them, they don’t seem to know why, other than away matches will be expensive (just like now in the CL).
Sky seem quite big on the greed aspect (which is a bit rich - pardon the pun) and I can understand why they and UEFA / FIFA are upset (they have been greedy too though) but this has been touted for years and was obviously going to happen sooner or later, wasn’t it?
So what am I missing?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2021)

The crux of this is that the new league will be a closed shop, no promotion or relegation. Those in the league will receive huge amounts of money over and above what other clubs will receive.

Promotion and relegation is a key part of a league system and to lose that is huge.

The additional money will widen the gap between already wealthy clubs and other clubs. Bigger the gap, the more uncompetitive and predictable the sport becomes.

These are the two key points as I see them


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2021)

Sweep said:



			I will say, right from the start that I know very little about this and I would be genuinely grateful if someone would explain to me why everyone is so vehemently opposed to the formation of the European Super League.
*As I understand it and according to the papers the “big 6” joining will still play in the Premier League (not sure how that will work, time wise), still put money into the lower leagues, but just play mid week against other super league clubs? So is this just a very radical revamp of the Champions League (which UEFA we revamping anyway)?*
Why is this so bad for fans as is being shouted from the rooftops?
We have UEFA actually saying it’s the end of football forever! Players of these clubs banned from the Euros and World Cup. The PM saying it must be stopped. Gary Neville calling for his own club to be relegated. Every “proper” fan saying it’s terrible - and yet when I have asked them, they don’t seem to know why, other than away matches will be expensive (just like now in the CL).
Sky seem quite big on the greed aspect (which is a bit rich - pardon the pun) and I can understand why they and UEFA / FIFA are upset (they have been greedy too though) but this has been touted for years and was obviously going to happen sooner or later, wasn’t it?
So what am I missing?
		
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The bit in bold, that’s the Clubs which have agreed/want to create the Super League have said! What about the feelings/thoughts of every other Club in the Leagues involved around Europe, it’s not their role to decide how the PL should operate and who should or should not be invited in.

Talking the “Big 6” only, they believe they should play in the PL, the Super League, expect to play in the CL and to do that they will have to play lesser players or completely withdraw from the Carabao Cup or FA Cup, again changing the rules they are currently signed up to.

The only people who will benefit will be the Owners of the Clubs and as for helping everyone else out, what have any of the PL Clubs done for teams like Bury, Bolton or Wigan in recent years.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

As I understand it, the "Big 6" intend to join & still fulfil their commitment to the Premier League, and presumably the domestic cups; they will be waving a fond farewell to the Champions League, or sticking two fingers up to UEFA, depending on your point of view.

This was announced the day before UEFA were due to release plans to up the Champions League to 36 participants and increase the number of games by 100 per season, making a shedload of money for themselves in the process.

The Premier League's product will be devalued overnight if they leave, as those leaving represent the biggest draw to the Far Eastern markets, so they will not wish to lose that revenue stream, but at the same time they do not want teams dictating the terms & conditions of their league to them.

The Champions League will be similarly devalued as most of their history will disappear overnight.

The "Big 6" appear to have been promised a guaranteed revenue stream far in excess of their current one so have no issue with that as they won't lose financially.

The match going fans, whom Covid has proved are an unnecessary inconvenience, do not want it as they see the kudos in winning the current trophies, and have no interest in winning the Harlem Globetrotters League, but have little or no say in the matter.

The threats have started; players in the ESL will be banned from representing their country, which might leave FIFA in a pickle looking at World Cup rights; certain other members of the Premier League have demanded the immediate expulsion of the "Big 6", conveniently saving existing teams from relegation & promoting those with no hope into the Champions League (not that it's about the money of course )

Pick the bones out of that.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2021)

My concern is that the Prem gets treated like the Carabao and FA Cup by the Big 6. Don't forget, if this does take off there'll be the current champion's league and this super league, and then the Prem, FA Cup and the Carabao Cup. Something will be dismissed by those clubs but what will it be?

I barely bother watching the league cup now, and could end up doing the same with the FA Cup. If the Prem gets diluted too...

Remember Packer's cricket circus? If this plan is treated the same way, who knows what will happen.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The bit in bold, that’s the Clubs which have agreed/want to create the Super League have said! What about the feelings/thoughts of every other Club in the Leagues involved around Europe, it’s not their role to decide how the PL should operate and who should or should not be invited in.

Talking the “Big 6” only, they believe they should play in the PL, the Super League, *expect to play in the CL* and to do that they will have to play lesser players or completely withdraw from the Carabao Cup or FA Cup, again changing the rules they are currently signed up to.

The only people who will benefit will be the Owners of the Clubs and as for helping everyone else out, what have any of the PL Clubs done for teams like Bury, Bolton or Wigan in recent years.
		
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Have I misread it Paul; I'd come to the conclusion that they were playing ESL instead of, not as well as Champions League?  If they are playing both, then they won't dilute the Premier League team, but the League Cup & FA Cup will become the province of the youth teams, which is a shame and an insult to the history of the competition.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

Dowden thinks that football is nothing without the fans...has he not spotted that EPL football has been on TV for many months with no fans in the stadium yet no doubt a huge global TV audience and especially in China and SE Asia - as the owners of the club will have noted.


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## CliveW (Apr 19, 2021)

I cannot believe that this has taken up the first 10 minutes of the BBC national/international news!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Have I misread it Paul; I'd come to the conclusion that they were playing ESL instead of, not as well as Champions League?  If they are playing both, then they won't dilute the Premier League team, but the League Cup 7 FA Cup will become the province of the youth teams, which is a shame and an insult to the history of the competition.
		
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UEFA Rules currently state the winners of the PL plus the other scenarios go in to the CL, if one of the big 6 win the PL they cannot give up their place to a team lower down the League and we therefore have no rep, but again it’s not UEFA or PL saying how it will work in the future, it’s the big 6 believing they can dictate the terms.

So currently if City won the PL next year, they would be entered in to the CL as our Winners and play in the ESL.🤷‍♂️


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## 2blue (Apr 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			My concern is that the Prem gets treated like the Carabao and FA Cup by the Big 6. Don't forget, if this does take off there'll be the current champion's league and this super league, and then the Prem, FA Cup and the Carabao Cup. Something will be dismissed by those clubs but what will it be?

I barely bother watching the league cup now, and could end up doing the same with the FA Cup. If the Prem gets diluted too...

*Remember Packer's cricket circus? If this plan is treated the same way, who knows what will happen*.
		
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Also......  Laver excluded from Wimbledon etc because he went Pro. Snooker & darts taken to another dimension. Whilst not exact parallels it's clear to me that football at the top level is currently rather 'stagnant
As a football watcher rather than a fan, other than the 2Blues, I'd really look forward to watching Europes top teams go head to head.


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## Sweep (Apr 19, 2021)

In regard to relegation, realistically none of these teams would be relegated now, especially these days when money talks so loudly. Gone are the days when Man U went into Div 1.
I do get though that it’s hard to swallow guarantees for some teams and not others. I guess they had to give some guarantees to encourage the big teams to take the risk?
As I understand it, there will be promotion to the ESL?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

Sweep said:



			In regard to relegation, realistically none of these teams would be relegated now, especially these days when money talks so loudly. Gone are the days when Man U went into Div 1.
I do get though that it’s hard to swallow guarantees for some teams and not others. I guess they had to give some guarantees to encourage the big teams to take the risk?
*As I understand it, there will be promotion to the ESL?*

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I believe 5 teams per season can be introduced on merit, but the founding 15 are safe for life, or at least until the rules change...


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## Reemul (Apr 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe 5 teams per season can be introduced on merit, but the founding 15 are safe for life, or at least until the rules change...
		
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5 teams per season form the whole of Europe could get in, not likely to be any from the premier league when we have 6 already in


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe 5 teams per season can be introduced on merit, but the founding 15 are safe for life, or at least until the rules change...
		
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Which is fine, unless the PL (and other national leagues), FIFA and UEFA stick to their guns and any team joining the new ESL is banned from all other competitions. Are any teams going to potentially risk being expelled from their home league and have their players banned from international football for a one season shot at the new league with no guarantees after that one year? 

What happens if Roma (as an example) qualify to join the ESL? If they take up that option and get expelled from Serie A and then in the following season get relegated from the ESL they now have no league to play in. Yes it might seem like a good idea to earn £300 million for a season in the ESL but not if they then have to apply to re-join the Italian leagues at the lowest level and work their way back up. The loss of earnings for the years needed to get back to the top level would dwarf the one season earnings from the ESL.


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## Sweep (Apr 19, 2021)

It’s going to be messy (and not the player 😀). If the national leagues stick to their guns they will lose their biggest teams. Worse off will be the PL. without the 6 it will be like the SPL (all due respect to everyone) which will just make the ESL more attractive. Will they ban them to protect UEFA?
Big risks on all sides.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2021)

Sweep said:



			It’s going to be messy (and not the player 😀). If the national leagues stick to their guns they will lose their biggest teams. Worse off will be the PL. *without the 6 it will be like the SPL* (all due respect to everyone) which will just make the ESL more attractive. Will they ban them to protect UEFA?
Big risks on all sides.
		
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Surely without the big 6 the PL will actually become a more interesting competition. Definitely not better quality but almost certainly more interesting with many more clubs able to challenge for and win the league each year. The SPL has been a one club league for the last 8 or 9 years and that has only changed in this past season. Get rid of the big 6 and the PL is far from a one or two club league, it becomes far more competitive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2021)

Sweep said:



			It’s going to be messy (and not the player 😀). If the national leagues stick to their guns they will lose their biggest teams. Worse off will be the PL. without the 6 it will be like the SPL (all due respect to everyone) which will just make the ESL more attractive. Will they ban them to protect UEFA?
Big risks on all sides.
		
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How can they make the ESL more attractive? Have a read of Post #14 above, why would you want to play in a League were you could finish above another Club and you get relegated instead of them?

Then have nowhere to go back to as you’ve given up your own League.🤷‍♂️


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			How can they make the ESL more attractive? *Have a read of Post #14 above, *why would you want to play in a League were you could finish above another Club and you get relegated instead of them?

Then have nowhere to go back to as you’ve given up your own League.🤷‍♂️
		
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As a neutral I think post #14 was quite excellent.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely without the big 6 the PL will actually become a more interesting competition. Definitely not better quality but almost certainly more interesting with many more clubs able to challenge for and win the league each year. The SPL has been a one club league for the last 8 or 9 years and that has only changed in this past season. Get rid of the big 6 and the PL is far from a one or two club league, it becomes far more competitive.
		
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All my years watching football - Liverpool , Man Utd , Spurs and Arsenal have always been in the top league and then in recent years City and Chelsea - 5 of them have won every title since 86/87 I think bar one season which Leicester won 

If those clubs were expelled then It would be competitive for one maybe two seasons but then a couple of teams with more financial backing would step up and dominate 

A lot of it is unimaginable on how the landscape would be without those clubs - I suspect no fans want all this to happen


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All my years watching football - Liverpool , Man Utd , Spurs and Arsenal have always been in the top league and then in recent years City and Chelsea - 5 of them have won every title since 86/87 I think bar one season which Leicester won

If those clubs were expelled then It would be competitive for one maybe two seasons but then a couple of teams with more financial backing would step up and dominate

A lot of it is unimaginable on how the landscape would be without those clubs - I suspect no fans want all this to happen
		
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Everton won it in 86/87. Oops 😂😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2021)

Cough, cough, ahem Blackburn.


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## ger147 (Apr 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Cough, cough, ahem Blackburn.
		
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Counts as a Liverpool win as Dalglish was manager 👍🏻


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## Canary_Yellow (Apr 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All my years watching football - Liverpool , Man Utd , Spurs and Arsenal have always been in the top league and then in recent years City and Chelsea - 5 of them have won every title since 86/87 I think bar one season which Leicester won

If those clubs were expelled then It would be competitive for one maybe two seasons but then a couple of teams with more financial backing would step up and dominate

A lot of it is unimaginable on how the landscape would be without those clubs - I suspect no fans want all this to happen
		
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Blackburn fans are going to be fuming!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Counts as a Liverpool win as Dalglish was manager 👍🏻
		
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Apologies, how foolish of me 😆


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## ger147 (Apr 19, 2021)

Leeds United fans are miffed too...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Cough, cough, ahem Blackburn.
		
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My apologies to Blackburn fans 🤦‍♂️ How could I forget that final day when the Walker money helped win the title 😁



ger147 said:



			Leeds United fans are miffed too...
		
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I have had a proper mare 😂😂


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2021)

I presume all the pundits who are condemning the ESL will refuse to commentate on any of the matches


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## ger147 (Apr 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My apologies to Blackburn fans 🤦‍♂️ How could I forget that final day when the Walker money helped win the title 😁



I have had a proper mare 😂😂
		
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We need one of your forum friends to post the "stick to hockey" line as it seems quite appropriate here...


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2021)

Premier League winners for each season without European Super League clubs. Most titles: Everton - 8 Newcastle - 6 Leeds - 4 Blackburn - 3 Villa - 2 Leicester - 2













Lifted from online. Love it 😂. David Moyes, managerial legend.

Go on, clear off the 6 of you.


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## GB72 (Apr 19, 2021)

Not seen anything, when is this all supposed to start.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All my years watching football - Liverpool , Man Utd , Spurs and Arsenal have always been in the top league and then in recent years City and Chelsea - 5 of them have won every title since 86/87 I think bar one season which Leicester won

*If those clubs were expelled then It would be competitive for one maybe two seasons but then a couple of teams with more financial backing would step up and dominate*

A lot of it is unimaginable on how the landscape would be without those clubs - I suspect no fans want all this to happen
		
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Would they though? Surely the self proclaimed “Big 6” would be hoovering up all the talent with their massive budgets? Expect squad numbers to be around 50 to cover all the fixtures they will have to play. The Premier league will be a very 2nd class product. (I wonder if my season ticket will be any cheaper🤔)


Also random irritation...how the Hell have Tottenham wormed their way onto the gravy train? Last won the league back in the days of Pathe news, no real Champions league pedigree and serial under achievers!


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## Canfordhacker (Apr 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Also random irritation...how the Hell have Tottenham wormed their way onto the gravy train? Last won the league back in the days of Pathe news, no real Champions league pedigree and serial under achievers!
		
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This!!!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

The statement from the Chelsea website;


A joint statement released by all twelve founding clubs is below. Further information will be provided in due course.
We look forward to working with all key stakeholders, particularly our supporters, as this competition develops.

*LEADING EUROPEAN FOOTBALL CLUBS ANNOUNCE NEW SUPER LEAGUE COMPETITION*
Twelve of Europe’s leading football clubs have today come together to announce they have agreed to establish a new mid-week competition, the Super League, governed by its Founding Clubs.

AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Atlético de Madrid, Chelsea FC, FC Barcelona, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus FC, Liverpool FC, Manchester City, Manchester United, Real Madrid CF and Tottenham Hotspur have all joined as Founding Clubs. It is anticipated that a further three clubs will join ahead of the inaugural season, which is intended to commence as soon as practicable.

Going forward, the Founding Clubs look forward to holding discussions with UEFA and FIFA to work together in partnership to deliver the best outcomes for the new League and for football as a whole.

The formation of the Super League comes at a time when the global pandemic has accelerated the instability in the existing European football economic model. Further, for a number of years, the Founding Clubs have had the objective of improving the quality and intensity of existing European competitions throughout each season, and of creating a format for top clubs and players to compete on a regular basis.

The pandemic has shown that a strategic vision and a sustainable commercial approach are required to enhance value and support for the benefit of the entire European football pyramid. In recent months extensive dialogue has taken place with football stakeholders regarding the future format of European competitions. The Founding Clubs believe the solutions proposed following these talks do not solve fundamental issues, including the need to provide higher-quality matches and additional financial resources for the overall football pyramid.

Competition Format

20 participating clubs with 15 Founding Clubs and a qualifying mechanism for a further five teams to qualify annually based on achievements in the prior season.


Midweek fixtures with all participating clubs continuing to compete in their respective national leagues, preserving the traditional domestic match calendar which remains at the heart of the club game.


An August start with clubs participating in two groups of ten, playing home and away fixtures, with the top three in each group automatically qualifying for the quarter finals. Teams finishing fourth and fifth will then compete in a two-legged play-off for the remaining quarter-final positions. A two-leg knockout format will be used to reach the final at the end of May, which will be staged as a single fixture at a neutral venue.
As soon as practicable after the start of the men’s competition, a corresponding women’s league will also be launched, helping to advance and develop the women’s game.
The new annual tournament will provide significantly greater economic growth and support for European football via a long-term commitment to uncapped solidarity payments which will grow in line with league revenues. These solidarity payments will be substantially higher than those generated by the current European competition and are expected to be in excess of €10 billion during the course of the initial commitment period of the Clubs. In addition, the competition will be built on a sustainable financial foundation with all Founding Clubs signing up to a spending framework. In exchange for their commitment, Founding Clubs will receive an amount of €3.5 billion solely to support their infrastructure investment plans and to offset the impact of the COVID pandemic.

Florentino Pérez, President Real Madrid CF and the first Chairman of the Super League said:

“We will help football at every level and take it to its rightful place in the world. Football is the only global sport in the world with more than four billion fans and our responsibility as big clubs is to respond to their desires.”

Backing the new European league, Andrea Agnelli, Chairman of Juventus and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“Our 12 Founder clubs represent billions of fans across the globe and 99 European trophies. We have come together at this critical moment, enabling European competition to be transformed, putting the game we love on a sustainable footing for the long-term future, substantially increasing solidarity, and giving fans and amateur players a regular flow of headline fixtures that will feed their passion for the game while providing them with engaging role models.”

Joel Glazer, Co-Chairman of Manchester United and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“By bringing together the world’s greatest clubs and players to play each other throughout the season, the Super League will open a new chapter for European football, ensuring world-class competition and facilities, and increased financial support for the wider football pyramid.”


Make of it what you will.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Also random irritation...how the Hell have Tottenham wormed their way onto the gravy train? Last won the league back in the days of Pathe news, no real Champions league pedigree and serial under achievers!
		
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They are a London club.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The statement from the Chelsea website;


A joint statement released by all twelve founding clubs is below. Further information will be provided in due course.
We look forward to working with all key stakeholders, particularly our supporters, as this competition develops.

*LEADING EUROPEAN FOOTBALL CLUBS ANNOUNCE NEW SUPER LEAGUE COMPETITION*
Twelve of Europe’s leading football clubs have today come together to announce they have agreed to establish a new mid-week competition, the Super League, governed by its Founding Clubs.

AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Atlético de Madrid, Chelsea FC, FC Barcelona, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus FC, Liverpool FC, Manchester City, Manchester United, Real Madrid CF and Tottenham Hotspur have all joined as Founding Clubs. It is anticipated that a further three clubs will join ahead of the inaugural season, which is intended to commence as soon as practicable.

Going forward, the Founding Clubs look forward to holding discussions with UEFA and FIFA to work together in partnership to deliver the best outcomes for the new League and for football as a whole.

The formation of the Super League comes at a time when the global pandemic has accelerated the instability in the existing European football economic model. Further, for a number of years, the Founding Clubs have had the objective of improving the quality and intensity of existing European competitions throughout each season, and of creating a format for top clubs and players to compete on a regular basis.

The pandemic has shown that a strategic vision and a sustainable commercial approach are required to enhance value and support for the benefit of the entire European football pyramid. In recent months extensive dialogue has taken place with football stakeholders regarding the future format of European competitions. The Founding Clubs believe the solutions proposed following these talks do not solve fundamental issues, including the need to provide higher-quality matches and additional financial resources for the overall football pyramid.

Competition Format

20 participating clubs with 15 Founding Clubs and a qualifying mechanism for a further five teams to qualify annually based on achievements in the prior season.


Midweek fixtures with all participating clubs continuing to compete in their respective national leagues, preserving the traditional domestic match calendar which remains at the heart of the club game.


An August start with clubs participating in two groups of ten, playing home and away fixtures, with the top three in each group automatically qualifying for the quarter finals. Teams finishing fourth and fifth will then compete in a two-legged play-off for the remaining quarter-final positions. A two-leg knockout format will be used to reach the final at the end of May, which will be staged as a single fixture at a neutral venue.
As soon as practicable after the start of the men’s competition, a corresponding women’s league will also be launched, helping to advance and develop the women’s game.
The new annual tournament will provide significantly greater economic growth and support for European football via a long-term commitment to uncapped solidarity payments which will grow in line with league revenues. These solidarity payments will be substantially higher than those generated by the current European competition and are expected to be in excess of €10 billion during the course of the initial commitment period of the Clubs. In addition, the competition will be built on a sustainable financial foundation with all Founding Clubs signing up to a spending framework. In exchange for their commitment, Founding Clubs will receive an amount of €3.5 billion solely to support their infrastructure investment plans and to offset the impact of the COVID pandemic.

Florentino Pérez, President Real Madrid CF and the first Chairman of the Super League said:

“We will help football at every level and take it to its rightful place in the world. Football is the only global sport in the world with more than four billion fans and our responsibility as big clubs is to respond to their desires.”

Backing the new European league, Andrea Agnelli, Chairman of Juventus and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“Our 12 Founder clubs represent billions of fans across the globe and 99 European trophies. We have come together at this critical moment, enabling European competition to be transformed, putting the game we love on a sustainable footing for the long-term future, substantially increasing solidarity, and giving fans and amateur players a regular flow of headline fixtures that will feed their passion for the game while providing them with engaging role models.”

Joel Glazer, Co-Chairman of Manchester United and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“By bringing together the world’s greatest clubs and players to play each other throughout the season, the Super League will open a new chapter for European football, ensuring world-class competition and facilities, and increased financial support for the wider football pyramid.”


Make of it what you will.
		
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Gotta love the arrogance of it if nothing else.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The statement from the Chelsea website;


A joint statement released by all twelve founding clubs is below. Further information will be provided in due course.
We look forward to working with all key stakeholders, particularly our supporters, as this competition develops.

*LEADING EUROPEAN FOOTBALL CLUBS ANNOUNCE NEW SUPER LEAGUE COMPETITION*
Twelve of Europe’s leading football clubs have today come together to announce they have agreed to establish a new mid-week competition, the Super League, governed by its Founding Clubs.

AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Atlético de Madrid, Chelsea FC, FC Barcelona, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus FC, Liverpool FC, Manchester City, Manchester United, Real Madrid CF and Tottenham Hotspur have all joined as Founding Clubs. It is anticipated that a further three clubs will join ahead of the inaugural season, which is intended to commence as soon as practicable.

Going forward, the Founding Clubs look forward to holding discussions with UEFA and FIFA to work together in partnership to deliver the best outcomes for the new League and for football as a whole.

The formation of the Super League comes at a time when the global pandemic has accelerated the instability in the existing European football economic model. Further, for a number of years, the Founding Clubs have had the objective of improving the quality and intensity of existing European competitions throughout each season, and of creating a format for top clubs and players to compete on a regular basis.

The pandemic has shown that a strategic vision and a sustainable commercial approach are required to enhance value and support for the benefit of the entire European football pyramid. In recent months extensive dialogue has taken place with football stakeholders regarding the future format of European competitions. The Founding Clubs believe the solutions proposed following these talks do not solve fundamental issues, including the need to provide higher-quality matches and additional financial resources for the overall football pyramid.

Competition Format

20 participating clubs with 15 Founding Clubs and a qualifying mechanism for a further five teams to qualify annually based on achievements in the prior season.


Midweek fixtures with all participating clubs continuing to compete in their respective national leagues, preserving the traditional domestic match calendar which remains at the heart of the club game.


An August start with clubs participating in two groups of ten, playing home and away fixtures, with the top three in each group automatically qualifying for the quarter finals. Teams finishing fourth and fifth will then compete in a two-legged play-off for the remaining quarter-final positions. A two-leg knockout format will be used to reach the final at the end of May, which will be staged as a single fixture at a neutral venue.
As soon as practicable after the start of the men’s competition, a corresponding women’s league will also be launched, helping to advance and develop the women’s game.
The new annual tournament will provide significantly greater economic growth and support for European football via a long-term commitment to uncapped solidarity payments which will grow in line with league revenues. These solidarity payments will be substantially higher than those generated by the current European competition and are expected to be in excess of €10 billion during the course of the initial commitment period of the Clubs. In addition, the competition will be built on a sustainable financial foundation with all Founding Clubs signing up to a spending framework. In exchange for their commitment, Founding Clubs will receive an amount of €3.5 billion solely to support their infrastructure investment plans and to offset the impact of the COVID pandemic.

Florentino Pérez, President Real Madrid CF and the first Chairman of the Super League said:

“We will help football at every level and take it to its rightful place in the world. Football is the only global sport in the world with more than four billion fans and our responsibility as big clubs is to respond to their desires.”

Backing the new European league, Andrea Agnelli, Chairman of Juventus and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“Our 12 Founder clubs represent billions of fans across the globe and 99 European trophies. We have come together at this critical moment, enabling European competition to be transformed, putting the game we love on a sustainable footing for the long-term future, substantially increasing solidarity, and giving fans and amateur players a regular flow of headline fixtures that will feed their passion for the game while providing them with engaging role models.”

Joel Glazer, Co-Chairman of Manchester United and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“By bringing together the world’s greatest clubs and players to play each other throughout the season, the Super League will open a new chapter for European football, ensuring world-class competition and facilities, and increased financial support for the wider football pyramid.”


Make of it what you will.
		
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Its sickening to see they are using the pandemic as a smokescreen for their overarching greed. Whilst I appreciate they are looking after themselves, as any business would, they are also seeking the power to control their league which will ensure their noses are never pushed out of the trough.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 19, 2021)

Where's the money coming from?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Would they though? Surely the self proclaimed “Big 6” would be hoovering up all the talent with their massive budgets? *Expect squad numbers to be around 50 to cover all the fixtures they will have to play.* The Premier league will be a very 2nd class product. (I wonder if my season ticket will be any cheaper🤔)


Also random irritation...how the Hell have Tottenham wormed their way onto the gravy train? Last won the league back in the days of Pathe news, no real Champions league pedigree and serial under achievers!
		
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Two groups of 10 teams with the top 3 from each league going into a knockout and 4th/5th in play off to join them for quarter and semi finals and then the final. Assuming a club gets to the final then that's a maximum of 23 games - 18 group games (home and away), 2 x QF (h & a legs), 2 x SF (h & a) and 1 single leg Final match. If they aren't in any other competitions then why are they going to need a squad of 50 for 18 to 23 games per season?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The statement from the Chelsea website;


A joint statement released by all twelve founding clubs is below. Further information will be provided in due course.
We look forward to working with all key stakeholders, particularly our supporters, as this competition develops.

*LEADING EUROPEAN FOOTBALL CLUBS ANNOUNCE NEW SUPER LEAGUE COMPETITION*
Twelve of Europe’s leading football clubs have today come together to announce they have agreed to establish a new mid-week competition, the Super League, governed by its Founding Clubs.

AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Atlético de Madrid, Chelsea FC, FC Barcelona, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus FC, Liverpool FC, Manchester City, Manchester United, Real Madrid CF and Tottenham Hotspur have all joined as Founding Clubs. It is anticipated that a further three clubs will join ahead of the inaugural season, which is intended to commence as soon as practicable.

Going forward, the Founding Clubs look forward to holding discussions with UEFA and FIFA to work together in partnership to deliver the best outcomes for the new League and for football as a whole.

The formation of the Super League comes at a time when the global pandemic has accelerated the instability in the existing European football economic model. Further, for a number of years, the Founding Clubs have had the objective of improving the quality and intensity of existing European competitions throughout each season, and of creating a format for top clubs and players to compete on a regular basis.

The pandemic has shown that a strategic vision and a sustainable commercial approach are required to enhance value and support for the benefit of the entire European football pyramid. In recent months extensive dialogue has taken place with football stakeholders regarding the future format of European competitions. The Founding Clubs believe the solutions proposed following these talks do not solve fundamental issues, including the need to provide higher-quality matches and additional financial resources for the overall football pyramid.

Competition Format

20 participating clubs with 15 Founding Clubs and a qualifying mechanism for a further five teams to qualify annually based on achievements in the prior season.


Midweek fixtures with all participating clubs continuing to compete in their respective national leagues, preserving the traditional domestic match calendar which remains at the heart of the club game.


An August start with clubs participating in two groups of ten, playing home and away fixtures, with the top three in each group automatically qualifying for the quarter finals. Teams finishing fourth and fifth will then compete in a two-legged play-off for the remaining quarter-final positions. A two-leg knockout format will be used to reach the final at the end of May, which will be staged as a single fixture at a neutral venue.
As soon as practicable after the start of the men’s competition, a corresponding women’s league will also be launched, helping to advance and develop the women’s game.
The new annual tournament will provide significantly greater economic growth and support for European football via a long-term commitment to uncapped solidarity payments which will grow in line with league revenues. These solidarity payments will be substantially higher than those generated by the current European competition and are expected to be in excess of €10 billion during the course of the initial commitment period of the Clubs. In addition, the competition will be built on a sustainable financial foundation with all Founding Clubs signing up to a spending framework. In exchange for their commitment, Founding Clubs will receive an amount of €3.5 billion solely to support their infrastructure investment plans and to offset the impact of the COVID pandemic.

Florentino Pérez, President Real Madrid CF and the first Chairman of the Super League said:

“We will help football at every level and take it to its rightful place in the world. Football is the only global sport in the world with more than four billion fans and our responsibility as big clubs is to respond to their desires.”

Backing the new European league, Andrea Agnelli, Chairman of Juventus and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“Our 12 Founder clubs represent billions of fans across the globe and 99 European trophies. We have come together at this critical moment, enabling European competition to be transformed, putting the game we love on a sustainable footing for the long-term future, substantially increasing solidarity, and giving fans and amateur players a regular flow of headline fixtures that will feed their passion for the game while providing them with engaging role models.”

Joel Glazer, Co-Chairman of Manchester United and Vice-Chairman of the Super League said:

“By bringing together the world’s greatest clubs and players to play each other throughout the season, the Super League will open a new chapter for European football, ensuring world-class competition and facilities, and increased financial support for the wider football pyramid.”


Make of it what you will.
		
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That’s the same generic statement on the Liverpool website - they were talking on 5 live that the main protagonists are the ones with the statements and the others are going along at the moment 



AmandaJR said:



			Where's the money coming from?
		
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JP Morgan it seems will put up money to start and no doubt others


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Where's the money coming from?
		
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JP Morgan.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2021)




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## Sweep (Apr 19, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			How can they make the ESL more attractive? Have a read of Post #14 above, why would you want to play in a League were you could finish above another Club and you get relegated instead of them?

Then have nowhere to go back to as you’ve given up your own League.🤷‍♂️
		
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The lack of quality in the PL without the 6 would make the ESL more attractive. After all, that is what the whole project is based upon. The best teams in Europe playing each other. That’s why the CL is held in such high regard now.
I agree with the post about the PL being more competitive without the big 6 though. But it’s watching the best that brings in the money.
As I say, big decisions and big risks all round.


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## fundy (Apr 19, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Where's the money coming from?
		
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ultimately the "future fans"


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## Fade and Die (Apr 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Two groups of 10 teams with the top 3 from each league going into a knockout and 4th/5th in play off to join them for quarter and semi finals and then the final. Assuming a club gets to the final then that's a maximum of 23 games - 18 group games (home and away), 2 x QF (h & a legs), 2 x SF (h & a) and 1 single leg Final match. If they aren't in any other competitions then why are they going to need a squad of 50 for 18 to 23 games per season?
		
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Plus the domestic league and domestic cups which is where I expect the squad players to be used. (Think British Lions midweek team)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2021)

Sweep said:



			The lack of quality in the PL without the 6 would make the ESL more attractive. After all, that is what the whole project is based upon. The best teams in Europe playing each other. That’s why the CL is held in such high regard now.
I agree with the post about the PL being more competitive without the big 6 though. But it’s watching the best that brings in the money.
As I say, big decisions and big risks all round.
		
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If the ESL has all the quality players, again, why would a Club want to join them for 1 season with a weaker (relatively speaking) team in a League were certain teams are exempt from relegation.

You can’t have a competition were no matter how bad you are you are guaranteed to stay up.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 19, 2021)

This will ensure I don't watch any more televised soccer.   Not that I ever did before 🤣


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Plus the domestic league and domestic cups which is where I expect the squad players to be used. (Think British Lions midweek team)
		
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Not if they were to get expelled from the Premier League, which seems to be the most likely path if the ESL does go ahead.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not if they were to get expelled from the Premier League, which seems to be the most likely path if the ESL does go ahead.
		
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Here’s hoping


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## Crow (Apr 19, 2021)

I think that they're being very short-sighted in their proposal.

ESL?  

Pah, surely they should be thinking WSL, get some South American teams in, maybe a couple of Asian teams and an American one.

WORLD SOCCER LEAGUE!!

Much more money to be made.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2021)

Crow said:



			I think that they're being very short-sighted in their proposal.

ESL? 

Pah, surely they should be thinking WSL, get some South American teams in, maybe a couple of Asian teams and an American one.

WORLD SOCCER LEAGUE!!

Much more money to be made.
		
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Can't believe you've not mentioned the Inuits


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s the same generic statement on the Liverpool website - *they were talking on 5 live that the main protagonists are the ones with the statements and the others are going along at the moment*


JP Morgan it seems will put up money to start and no doubt others
		
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The usual TalkShite cobblers then as it is on every one of the English club sites.

And I now have to deep clean my computer to remove any trace of Sp*rs.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Can't believe you've not mentioned the Inuits
		
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'Snow game without them.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Would they though? Surely the self proclaimed “Big 6” would be hoovering up all the talent with their massive budgets? Expect squad numbers to be around 50 to cover all the fixtures they will have to play. The Premier league will be a very 2nd class product. (I wonder if my season ticket will be any cheaper🤔)


Also random irritation..*.how the Hell have Tottenham wormed their way onto the gravy train?* Last won the league back in the days of Pathe news, no real Champions league pedigree and serial under achievers!
		
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"Spurs getting into the ESL is like me walking into The Crucible & putting 50p on the table"

Shamelessly stolen from social media.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

It appears PSG will win this year's Champions League;

https://www.skysports.com/football/...an-city-could-be-thrown-out-from-cl-danish-fa

Could be interesting, UEFA having no semi finals or final to sell...


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## Fade and Die (Apr 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not if they were to get expelled from the Premier League, which seems to be the most likely path if the ESL does go ahead.
		
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Of course if the Premier League, and other national associations carried out the threat to expel them from their respective competitions it would turn into a whole new ball game. But of course that isn't going to happen in a million years. The Premier League and La Liga will still have a product to sell, but getting top dollar for a product where the highlight is Leicester v Everton or Getafe v Villarreal is harder than if they were flogging Man United v Liverpool or Barcelona v Real Madrid.

Imo there is no way TV money will go flooding into a league where there is no promotion or relegation. Manchester United v Liverpool and Real Madrid v Barcelona are massive games in the domestic calendars and attract millions of viewers worldwide.

Why? Because usually the result of that game matters big time to where the season's league trophy is going to end up. But who would give a monkeys if Man United were playing Liverpool for the privilege of finishing 7th. Or if Real and Barcelona were battling it out at the foot of the table but the loser was in no danger of getting relegated? People will pay to watch relevant matches. Not games with all the incentive of a testimonial.

Simply can't see it happening.

As happens every time something like this comes along a compromise will be reached which, as is also fairly commonplace, will please no one. But life will go on.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 19, 2021)

Did I read somewhere that the new proposed breakaway  games will only be played midweek


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## ger147 (Apr 19, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Did I read somewhere that the new proposed breakaway  games will only be played midweek 

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Aye, basically midweek Stablefords, just with a few more quid to play for 👍🏻


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## williamalex1 (Apr 19, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Aye, basically midweek Stablefords, just with a few more quid to play for 👍🏻
		
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Cake and eat it plus more cake, a stableford diet


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2021)

If players are being honest and are really against this I'm sure a half decent employment lawyer could get them out of the contract.


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## Sweep (Apr 20, 2021)

In regard to promotion and relegation, it’s interesting that I think 3 of the 6 are American owned.
There is no promotion to or relegation from the NFL. As I understand it there are salary caps to stop the richest teams hoovering up all the top players (can’t see that happening in the ESL as it’s based on being a rich team) and the worst team from last year gets first choice in the next draft.

The point is that they have seen that no relegation can and does work and in their eyes they are keeping the dream alive by offering what appears to be very limited promotion to their league.

For once. I am too young to remember but there was strong opposition to British teams competing in the European Cup in the early days.


Ultimately if this goes ahead, if everyone is smart it will just be an alternative to the CL. The UEFA chap proclaiming it’s the end of football forever, talking of banning players from the WC and Euros (therefore devaluing those comps) and making personal attacks on club CEO’s is ludicrous. Cool heads and calm leadership is needed and none is evident.


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## RichA (Apr 20, 2021)

IF it goes ahead and the big clubs all become global franchises, which some of them frankly already are, it might even be good for domestic football. 
"Real" football supporters might go back to supporting their local team. 
The footballers who love football more than money and are happy to play for a mere £5k a week will stay. 
The Blackburns, Villas and maybe even Forests may rise again.
I just feel sorry for the genuine supporters of the Manchester, London and Liverpool teams who are actual locals.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

I wonder whether this plan was released in the knowledge that it would be roundly rejected and the resulting compromise is the ultimate goal. That said it does feel an extreme way of going about it if that is the case!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder whether this plan was released in the knowledge that it would be roundly rejected and the resulting compromise is the ultimate goal. That said it does feel an extreme way of going about it if that is the case!!
		
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That is the usual routine but this time the breakaway clubs seem to have seriously misjudged the mood and the proposal.


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## RichA (Apr 20, 2021)

I'm always similarly cynical of extreme opening gambits, but the people in charge of the big football clubs have more of a background in generating cash flow than getting the best for communities and real football supporters.
The big clubs don't really generate significant revenue from season tickets, but they still inflate the prices to the maximum that the market will tolerate.
Easy to forget that this isn't unprecedented.
From the Wikipedia entry for the Premier League...
"The competition was founded as the FA Premier League on 20 February 1992 following the decision of clubs in the Football League First Division to break away from the Football League, founded in 1888, and take advantage of a lucrative television rights deal."


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely without the big 6 the PL will actually become a more interesting competition. Definitely not better quality but almost certainly more interesting with many more clubs able to challenge for and win the league each year. The SPL has been a one club league for the last 8 or 9 years and that has only changed in this past season. Get rid of the big 6 and the PL is far from a one or two club league, it becomes far more competitive.
		
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Welcome to the world of Scottish football.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Where's the money coming from?
		
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Mainly from an American bank.
Someone said that Barcelona are £1billion in debt.
Bankers make most of their money from people who are in debt.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is the usual routine but this time the breakaway clubs seem to have seriously misjudged the mood and the proposal.
		
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I'm not sure they have misjudged the mood, I'm more of the mind that they just don't care, the quote about 'legacy fans' vs 'future fans' pretty much proved that. They are looking at the emerging football markets where they will be targetting this, not the fans in the traditoinal markets. Prepare yourself for ridiculous game times to suit certain time zones!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 20, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mainly from an American bank.
Someone said that Barcelona are £1billion in debt.
Bankers make most of their money from people who are in debt.
		
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Real Madrid also in massive debt and can't expect Spanish government to bail them out as they kept doing in the past.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Loving the way Sky’s statement last night tried to exonerate themselves of any blame for this, and they have had no involvement. I cannot believe that if it involves selling TV rights that Sky aren’t somehow involved.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder whether this plan was released in the knowledge that it would be roundly rejected and the resulting compromise is the ultimate goal. That said it does feel an extreme way of going about it if that is the case!!
		
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That’s what normally happens every time UEFA want to do some changes and I believe it was all about that but I’m very worried right now , it’s hard to comprehend- not one single fan wants this 99.9% of the players don’t want it 

I don’t want to see Liverpool just play the big teams each week - that’s not how I was brought up on football - those big games were earned by qualifying for the big comps - no team has a right just to be given the spot 

Amongst all this are UEFAs proposed changes for the CL - extra games , going to impact the domestic cups.  It would also mean that for example that if Liverpool didn’t qualify for CL they would be given a spot anyway - it’s all wrong


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56812151

For “save football” read “save Real Madrid” and the five other non-English teams which have signed this proposal.

Make no mistake, the powers that be at the big Italian and Spanish clubs have seen the success of the Premier League and the revenue it generates, and all want a slice of the pie in order to dig themselves out of gigantic financial holes. This has nothing to do with saving football in general, and is all about generating cash for the likes of Real and Barcelona, both of whom are in the mire. Why else would the founder clubs be given protected status?

If Perez is concerned about a lack of viewing fans at the moment, this has either not been thought through at all, or else is a cynical attempt to tap into the global streaming market. I think we all know which. But how long before we all get bored watching the same teams play each other year after year? There will be no variety whatsoever, no opportunity for a smaller club to “do a Leicester City” - it will very soon become a monotonous bore fest. Games will soon be played in half empty stadia and, whilst I acknowledge that there is far more to generating revenue than ticket sales, the lack of atmosphere will turn armchair fans off, just as it has done during the pandemic. Football needs packed grounds. It needs local fans to go to games.

I think the key to this is likely to be player reaction. In the event English clubs are expelled from the Premier League, FA and League Cups, and their players are barred from international football, how many will want to play in the ESL? They’re already rich beyond their wildest dreams so it’s not all down to money. Take Donny Van De Beek as an example. Barely gets a kick at Old Trafford but because of his affiliation to the club his footballing career will be dead in the water overnight unless he moves to a club outside the ESL. How many more like him are there?

If the opposition within the game is as fierce as it is outside, then I fail to see how this can ever get off the ground.


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Loving the way Sky’s statement last night tried to exonerate themselves of any blame for this, and they have had no involvement. I cannot believe that if it involves selling TV rights that Sky aren’t somehow involved.
		
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The list of proposed broadcasters I’ve seen includes the likes of Amazon and other premium internet based providers - Sky weren’t on it.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s what normally happens every time UEFA want to do some changes and I believe it was all about that but I’m very worried right now , it’s hard to comprehend- not one single fan wants this 99.9% of the players don’t want it

I don’t want to see Liverpool just play the big teams each week - that’s not how I was brought up on football - those big games were earned by qualifying for the big comps - no team has a right just to be given the spot

Amongst all this are UEFAs proposed changes for the CL - extra games , going to impact the domestic cups.  It would also mean that for example that if Liverpool didn’t qualify for CL they would be given a spot anyway - it’s all wrong
		
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Again, it just boils down to which markets they are targetting this new competition at. The 'legacy fans', those brought up on proper competition, relegation and failure, watching big teams getting dumped out of cup competitions are not the target market, they aren't interested in us and they've obviously done the maths and feel that they can afford to lose a % of those who refuse to watch the new format. What they're after, the 'future fans' are those who like the US model where there is no relegation and that the games are big, Man U vs Barca, Liverpool vs Real etc etc. These will come from the Middle East and Asia i'd imagine and selling the rights to those games will probably dwarf the figures that Sky have been earning. Regardless of what we think about the owners of the 12 we know that they are not stupid especially when it comes to money.


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Again, it just boils down to which markets they are targetting this new competition at. The 'legacy fans', those brought up on proper competition, relegation and failure, watching big teams getting dumped out of cup competitions are not the target market, they aren't interested in us and they've obviously done the maths and feel that they can afford to lose a % of those who refuse to watch the new format. What they're after, the 'future fans' are those who like the US model where there is no relegation and that the games are big, Man U vs Barca, Liverpool vs Real etc etc. These will come from the Middle East and Asia i'd imagine and selling the rights to those games will probably dwarf the figures that Sky have been earning. Regardless of what we think about the owners of the 12 we know that they are no stupid especially when it comes to money.
		
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Absolutely spot on.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			For “save football” read “save Real Madrid” and the five other non-English teams which have signed this proposal.

Make no mistake, the powers that be at the big Italian and Spanish clubs have seen the success of the Premier League and the revenue it generates, and all want a slice of the pie in order to dig themselves out of gigantic financial holes. This has nothing to do with saving football in general, and is all about generating cash for the likes of Real and Barcelona, both of whom are in the mire.
		
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Real - £900m in debt
Barca - £1bn in debt

I cannot see how the ESL would benefit them?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure they have misjudged the mood, I'm more of the mind that they just don't care, the quote about 'legacy fans' vs 'future fans' pretty much proved that. They are looking at the emerging football markets where they will be targetting this, not the fans in the traditoinal markets. Prepare yourself for ridiculous game times to suit certain time zones!
		
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I don't think they ever care about the mood of the fans. I was thinking more this time of the mood of the domestic leagues, UEFA and FIFA. The threats of expulsion, removal of players from major tournaments etc is bigger than I have seen before. Now, they still may not care about that but surely the players will. Who doesn't want to play at a World Cup, Euro's etc? Equally, will clubs like the idea of being kicked out of their domestic leagues? 

How much is posturing I don't know, there is a big game of poker going on right now and there are some very big players at the table. I know I'd be no good at this


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## Ethan (Apr 20, 2021)

This is being presented as a morality play, future of the game, all that stuff. I think that takes an awfully rose-coloured view of the current game. It is all about the money and power already. I can't see how one group wanting more of the money is more morally superior to another group wanting it. Fans shouting at the Liverpool team bus is ridiculous. Does anyone really think these fans won't come to Anfield to see Liverpool play Real or Juve?

If I understand it correctly, the Premier League, La Liga, Seria A and, if they join, Bundesliega will continue. The FA Cup, Papa Johns Cup, Copa del Rey etc will be the main victims. I am not really very concerned about those. Promotion and relegation to the PL etc will continue. The UCL was already being re-engineered to allow more reliable access to the top teams, and the ESL takes that a step or two further.

I assume that what will happen is that UEFA will look at their UCL proposal again and amend it further in the direction of the ESL plan and offer more of the TV money to the qualifying clubs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			As happens every time something like this comes along a compromise will be reached which, as is also fairly commonplace, will please no one. But life will go on.
		
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Not always...but that was another time and another rather more political topic 🤫

My feeling is that the ESL group is not bluffing - that this is an opening gambit for a slightly less significant change that will be welcomed by fans because it is not as bad as it could be - but in truth will deliver much if not most of what the group of clubs want.  But if the football ‘authorities‘ do not budge the ESL will happen.


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## Orikoru (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure they have misjudged the mood, I'm more of the mind that they just don't care, the quote about 'legacy fans' vs 'future fans' pretty much proved that. They are looking at the emerging football markets where they will be targetting this, not the fans in the traditoinal markets. Prepare yourself for ridiculous game times to suit certain time zones!
		
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The word 'fan' doesn't mean the same to a chairman as it does to us. We see 'fan' as someone who has followed a team through thick and thin. They see 'fan' as a dollar sign. Interchangeable, and it doesn't matter who. A fan to them is anyone who'll stump up the dollar, whether they're in London, or Shanghai, or Doha.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If players are being honest and are really against this I'm sure a half decent employment lawyer could get them out of the contract.
		
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If FIFA/UEFA ban players from international football then perhaps restriction of trade as player contracts will allow them to play for their national team?


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If FIFA/UEFA ban players from international football then perhaps restriction of trade as player contracts will allow them to play for their national team?
		
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There’s more than one way to skin a cat. Even if not banned expressly from international football, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that national managers will be “encouraged” not to pick players from ESL sides. That may be the conspiracy theorist in me going slightly overboard, but it’s not entirely impossible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			There’s more than one way to skin a cat. Even if not banned expressly from international football, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that national managers will be “encouraged” not to pick players from ESL sides. That may be the conspiracy theorist in me going slightly overboard, but it’s not entirely impossible.
		
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Would be the only way a St Johnstone player gets picked for Scotland...now..🤔

As far as the restrictions on travel and suchlike for players of these clubs coming from such as Dowden - really...? Dowden being a guy who tells us that football is nothing without the fans...has he not spotted EPL matches have been played in empty stadia for many months - no doubt to very significant TV audiences across the globe - something most certainly at the forefront of the thinking of the ESL owners.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If FIFA/UEFA ban players from international football then perhaps restriction of trade as player contracts will allow them to play for their national team?
		
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You can only be selected for your National Team if you are registered with that National Governing body, if the FA remove the registration of the ESL players then they are no longer eligible to be selected.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			There’s more than one way to skin a cat. Even if not banned expressly from international football, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that national managers will be “encouraged” not to pick players from ESL sides. That may be the conspiracy theorist in me going slightly overboard, but it’s not entirely impossible.
		
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Perhaps similar to rugby where to play for some nations you have to play in their domestic leagues. That got past the lawyers okay.

Hopefully, as many have said, this is largely hot air, the grubby bunch will get a bigger piece of CL pie and next season will carry on as usual.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

BREAKING: Arsenal have decided to not participate in the European Super League. They are starting their own breakaway league with just themselves. The bookies currently have them as second favourites to win it.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

I guess a lot of the success (or failure) of the ESL may not be so much about what is done to stop it but how the nerve holds of those 12 who have started it. Will any of those blink given the reaction of the fans, maybe some of them don’t buy into the idea quite as much as the others. Once one of the 12 backs done will others follow and they’re left with a 5 or 6 who suddenly don’t have the same pulling power.

As a United fan I dislike City intensely however I’ve always thought that their owners have acted in the best interests of the team including the whole club. I can actually see them being one of the teams that does back down if it does come to the crunch, I think possibly Liverpool as well. I don’t think the Glazers care what anyone else things so they’ll still in in this thing until the bitter end. Barca and Real will be there as, financially, they’re in trouble and this is a way out.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			The list of proposed broadcasters I’ve seen includes the likes of Amazon and other premium internet based providers - Sky weren’t on it.
		
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Not being on the list and not being involved are not necessarily the same thing as we both well know...


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I guess a lot of the success (or failure) of the ESL may not be so much about what is done to stop it but how the nerve holds of those 12 who have started it. Will any of those blink given the reaction of the fans, maybe some of them don’t buy into the idea quite as much as the others. Once one of the 12 backs done will others follow and they’re left with a 5 or 6 who suddenly don’t have the same pulling power.

As a United fan I dislike City intensely however I’ve always thought that their owners have acted in the best interests of the team including the whole club. I can actually see them being one of the teams that does back down if it does come to the crunch, I think possibly Liverpool as well. I don’t think the Glazers care what anyone else things so they’ll still in in this thing until the bitter end. Barca and Real will be there as, financially, they’re in trouble and this is a way out.
		
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It's now actually being reported (on Twitter though) that at least 2 of the clubs are on the verge of bottling it in light of the reaction.....


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not being on the list and not being involved are not necessarily the same thing as we both well know... 

Click to expand...

I’ve left that world behind. I’m having a stab at being naive again!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve left that world behind. I’m having a stab at being naive again!
		
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You can take the boy out of the Job, but you can take the Job out of the boy.  🤣🤣


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It's now actually being reported (on Twitter though) that at least 2 of the clubs are on the verge of bottling it in light of the reaction.....
		
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The version I’ve heard/seen is that two clubs were not particularly keen in the first place but were faced with the choice of waving the ship goodbye as it sailed towards the dollars or boarding before the gangplank was pulled up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You can only be selected for your National Team if you are registered with that National Governing body, if the FA remove the registration of the ESL players then they are no longer eligible to be selected.
		
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Indeed. And players could say that it was by the action of their club that that happened - could be inevitable if the FA say that that is what *will* happen.  Would that enable a player to claim breach of contract by his club - by the clubs action he is no longer able to play for his country and his contract may say he is free to play for his country...in some form of words or another.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It's now actually being reported (on Twitter though) that at least 2 of the clubs are on the verge of bottling it in light of the reaction.....
		
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The genie of their intentions is out of the bottle though...


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## oxymoron (Apr 20, 2021)

Perez is saying they are doing this to save football !!! More likely to save Real given the huge debt they are carrying


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

They are claiming that their financial structure will provide greater payments to clubs, and I think the success or failure of the ESL will depend on this; if they can, as they claim, provide more money for other clubs that UEFA do, can you see the other club chairmen turning it down?


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## Robster59 (Apr 20, 2021)

oxymoron said:



			Perez is saying they are doing this to save football !!! More likely to save Real given the huge debt they are carrying
		
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That was exactly my thought as well.  This is all driven by money, not "for the good of the game".  All this will do in the end is generate more cash to pay even higher, grossly inflated, wages to the players and widen further the gap between the haves and the have-nots.  I bet the agents are already rubbing their hands.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			They are claiming that their financial structure will provide greater payments to clubs, and I think the success or failure of the ESL will depend on this; if they can, as they claim, provide more money for other clubs that UEFA do, can you see the other club chairmen turning it down?
		
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I can, I think the risk of promotion/relegation to the ESL will not help, plus the risk of more money only being able to buy 2nd tier players and losing your best would kill the game as a spectacle, all those Leagues involved simply become feeder leagues andvthe gap between the “Big 6” and the rest grows even wider.

I don’t know if you heard the Palace chairman on Sky last night, I thought he came across very well and I don’t think Chairmen like him will ever support it.


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## woofers (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Regardless of what we think about the owners of the 12 we know that they *are not stupid especially when it comes to money*.
		
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Why are they in so much debt then ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2021)

My plan for a North and South British League just might just catch fire.
Cut off line the Mersey to Humber.
Winners of both leagues play off to be British Champion.
Better together and keeps the Europeans out.
Win Win.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

woofers said:



			Why are they in so much debt then ?
		
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theyre not in debt, the clubs are, and are leveraged to make the owners even richer


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I can, I think the risk of promotion/relegation to the ESL will not help, plus the risk of more money only being able to buy 2nd tier players and losing your best would kill the game as a spectacle, all those Leagues involved simply become feeder leagues andvthe gap between the “Big 6” and the rest grows even wider.

I don’t know if you heard the Palace chairman on Sky last night, I thought he came across very well and I don’t think Chairmen like him will ever support it.
		
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I saw him briefly but he clearly seems to have grasped the fact that the Premier League club’s issue is with UEFA and not the Premier League. He also seemed remarkably conciliatory in the circumstances.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

woofers said:



			Why are they in so much debt then ?
		
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Which ones are you talking about? It's really only Madrid and Barca who are desperate for cash, they are in financial trouble so maybe I should have excluded them from my statement. For people like the Glazers they treat the club as a business so the debt is not an issue.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Which ones are you talking about? It's really only Madrid and Barca who are desperate for cash, they are in financial trouble so maybe I should have excluded them from my statement. For people like the Glazers they treat the club as a business so the debt is not an issue.
		
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for the glazers debt is their biggest asset, you only have to look at how they structured the initial purchase of Utd


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## oxymoron (Apr 20, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			That was exactly my thought as well.  This is all driven by money, not "for the good of the game".  All this will do in the end is generate more cash to pay even higher, grossly inflated, wages to the players and widen further the gap between the haves and the have-nots.  *I bet the agents are already rubbing their hands.*

Click to expand...

One has already said it will lead to more big money transfers , that Kia bloke i think it was the one who , i think was involved with the Tevez thing a few years back. So bigger transfer fees, this will just escalate and we may end up where we are now with clubs in the same debt in a few years so what will they have achieved ? Unless they put a salary cap to enable the clubs to keep a bigger share of the income.


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## Beezerk (Apr 20, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You can only be selected for your National Team if you are registered with that National Governing body, if the FA remove the registration of the ESL players then they are no longer eligible to be selected.
		
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Would ESL players be able to circumnavigate this by signing for an English FA team as well? Say Harry Kane signs for Morecambe Town or at least pays to sign for them lol.
I'm not sure if you can be registered with two different leagues though, one for the experts.


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## rksquire (Apr 20, 2021)

Is there a balanced (justified) argument to this or is it as bad as it would appear?  All we're getting is the negatives, and there are a lot of them but at some point the people with the loudest, most vociferous views have to be assessed as to how balanced they are.

For example, Ceferin is in charge of that known to be above all reproach and the picture of virtue that is UEFA; In fact, UEFA and FIFA are as corrupt and as greedy as the clubs they are now accusing of being similar.  Referencing people as 'snakes' without for one second looking in the mirror at the people resident at UEFA & FIFA HQ.  Of course, thanks to whistleblowers, some will say that they have punished and sorted themselves out, all while ignoring the fact that their houses are falling down around them.  

Gary Neville, who probably works for the average wage, at Sky, a corporation that surely must be a not-for-profit business judging by his rants, and ultimately sold out to American paymasters (not that Murdoch was any saint), fails to see the irony when he points the finger at American owners and their search for more gold.  Football clubs are businesses at the end of the day.  It's also the same Gary Neville that sees no issue in playing inflated salaries at his own club at the level they are at in the pursuit of success.  I mean it was an impassioned rant, but it's "criminal" in quotes rather than criminal in any legal sense.

And then there's others, all entitled to a say, but the selfless millionaire Biesla waxing lyrical about the how the rich get richer whilst he pocktets £5-6m a year is a bit rich in itself.  

The only people with a right to be aggrieved are the fans and I agree with them but I'd like to see a balanced view as to why the 'founders' think this is good for football; all other commentators are motivated by the same self interest as the '12' - greed.  But fans will get to see, in theory, the best players against each other on a regular basis, but if you don't support any of the participants it's really a side show and how long it can hold your interest remains to be seen.  

As for the domestic competitions, let's face it, the Champions League killed the League Cup and the FA Cup is held together by nostalgia only at this point.  The Premier League is a good product, but it's an example of why the WSL is a possibility; breaking away to a large degree from the Football League and Football Association, it was inevitable these clubs would get too much power.  The door opened in the 90s and really it's jsut being shoved now.  You can but titles - everyone spends money, of course, but City and Chelsea bought their success.  We had faux outrage at the Glazers, Roman, Mansour but they were allowed to do it; and now the government, the FA, UEFA and FIFA are saying "sure we let you throw all that money in, but as our pockets were getting lined it was okay, but this, what you're planning to do now, that's just not on!".

As a fan I hope it doesn't happen, at least not in the current format.  I suspect the future of football is in PPV via streaming devices where the best players complete regularly against each other, and the global consumption of football does mean we want Barcelona vs Juventus rather than Atalanta vs Rennes.  Ultimately, there's a good chance there's an agreement reached regarding the Champions League and UEFA will accept it as they need the cash-cow teams to serve their own enterprise.  As it stands now though, fans are having their say - it's just a shame they are being whipped up by 'greedy' football made millionaires.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I saw him briefly but he clearly seems to have grasped the fact that the Premier League club’s issue is with UEFA and not the Premier League. He also seemed remarkably conciliatory in the circumstances.
		
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It would be interesting to see how they would think if there was more money on the table for them - he did avoid a number of questions in regards the money filtering down from the Premier League into the leagues below etc 

I don’t think it would take much for all the chairmen’s eyes to light up if more money was offered to each club including the Premier League themselves 

Where this money comes from I have no idea because JP Morgan isn’t going to give £3.6 billion for nothing. 

Whilst it’s only those 6 clubs - I have no doubt that if a club was offered £350 mil a year then the eyes would be turned. 

There aren’t many owners/chairman that do it for the love of the game especially in the top league. 

With players like Haaland and Mbappe looking to go for well over £150mil with wages of £500k to £1mil a year - the big clubs are going to look at ways to get that money


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

rksquire said:



			Is there a balanced (justified) argument to this or is it as bad as it would appear?  All we're getting is the negatives, and there are a lot of them but at some point the people with the loudest, most vociferous views have to be assessed as to how balanced they are.

For example, Ceferin is in charge of that known to be above all reproach and the picture of virtue that is UEFA; In fact, UEFA and FIFA are as corrupt and as greedy as the clubs they are now accusing of being similar.  Referencing people as 'snakes' without for one second looking in the mirror at the people resident at UEFA & FIFA HQ.  Of course, thanks to whistleblowers, some will say that they have punished and sorted themselves out, all while ignoring the fact that their houses are falling down around them.

Gary Neville, who probably works for the average wage, at Sky, a corporation that surely must be a not-for-profit business judging by his rants, and ultimately sold out to American paymasters (not that Murdoch was any saint), fails to see the irony when he points the finger at American owners and their search for more gold.  Football clubs are businesses at the end of the day.  It's also the same Gary Neville that sees no issue in playing inflated salaries at his own club at the level they are at in the pursuit of success.  I mean it was an impassioned rant, but it's "criminal" in quotes rather than criminal in any legal sense.

And then there's others, all entitled to a say, but the selfless millionaire Biesla waxing lyrical about the how the rich get richer whilst he pocktets £5-6m a year is a bit rich in itself.

The only people with a right to be aggrieved are the fans and I agree with them but I'd like to see a balanced view as to why the 'founders' think this is good for football; all other commentators are motivated by the same self interest as the '12' - greed.  But fans will get to see, in theory, the best players against each other on a regular basis, but if you don't support any of the participants it's really a side show and how long it can hold your interest remains to be seen.

As for the domestic competitions, let's face it, the Champions League killed the League Cup and the FA Cup is held together by nostalgia only at this point.  The Premier League is a good product, but it's an example of why the WSL is a possibility; breaking away to a large degree from the Football League and Football Association, it was inevitable these clubs would get too much power.  The door opened in the 90s and really it's jsut being shoved now.  You can but titles - everyone spends money, of course, but City and Chelsea bought their success.  We had faux outrage at the Glazers, Roman, Mansour but they were allowed to do it; and now the government, the FA, UEFA and FIFA are saying "sure we let you throw all that money in, but as our pockets were getting lined it was okay, but this, what you're planning to do now, that's just not on!".

As a fan I hope it doesn't happen, at least not in the current format.  I suspect the future of football is in PPV via streaming devices where the best players complete regularly against each other, and the global consumption of football does mean we want Barcelona vs Juventus rather than Atalanta vs Rennes.  Ultimately, there's a good chance there's an agreement reached regarding the Champions League and UEFA will accept it as they need the cash-cow teams to serve their own enterprise.  As it stands now though, fans are having their say - it's just a shame they are being whipped up by 'greedy' football made millionaires.
		
Click to expand...


A very accurate tweet/retweet from earlier:

UEFA put a Europa League final between Arsenal and Chelsea (8 miles apart) in Baku, 3000 miles away, with no direct transport links to most of Europe and a Visa requirement to enter.  Spare me the “we love looking after the fans” tripe.


*Chris Wheatley* @ChrisWheatley_

UEFA president Ceferin: "To the English clubs, come to your senses - not out of love for football - but out of respect for those who bleed themselves dry to come to the stadium." football.london/premier-league…


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

brilliant from wolves 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384437712393064451


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## Reemul (Apr 20, 2021)

rksquire said:



			Is there a balanced (justified) argument to this or is it as bad as it would appear?  All we're getting is the negatives, and there are a lot of them but at some point the people with the loudest, most vociferous views have to be assessed as to how balanced they are.

For example, Ceferin is in charge of that known to be above all reproach and the picture of virtue that is UEFA; In fact, UEFA and FIFA are as corrupt and as greedy as the clubs they are now accusing of being similar.  Referencing people as 'snakes' without for one second looking in the mirror at the people resident at UEFA & FIFA HQ.  Of course, thanks to whistleblowers, some will say that they have punished and sorted themselves out, all while ignoring the fact that their houses are falling down around them.

Gary Neville, who probably works for the average wage, at Sky, a corporation that surely must be a not-for-profit business judging by his rants, and ultimately sold out to American paymasters (not that Murdoch was any saint), fails to see the irony when he points the finger at American owners and their search for more gold.  Football clubs are businesses at the end of the day.  It's also the same Gary Neville that sees no issue in playing inflated salaries at his own club at the level they are at in the pursuit of success.  I mean it was an impassioned rant, but it's "criminal" in quotes rather than criminal in any legal sense.

And then there's others, all entitled to a say, but the selfless millionaire Biesla waxing lyrical about the how the rich get richer whilst he pocktets £5-6m a year is a bit rich in itself.

The only people with a right to be aggrieved are the fans and I agree with them but I'd like to see a balanced view as to why the 'founders' think this is good for football; all other commentators are motivated by the same self interest as the '12' - greed.  But fans will get to see, in theory, the best players against each other on a regular basis, but if you don't support any of the participants it's really a side show and how long it can hold your interest remains to be seen.

As for the domestic competitions, let's face it, the Champions League killed the League Cup and the FA Cup is held together by nostalgia only at this point.  The Premier League is a good product, but it's an example of why the WSL is a possibility; breaking away to a large degree from the Football League and Football Association, it was inevitable these clubs would get too much power.  The door opened in the 90s and really it's jsut being shoved now.  You can but titles - everyone spends money, of course, but City and Chelsea bought their success.  We had faux outrage at the Glazers, Roman, Mansour but they were allowed to do it; and now the government, the FA, UEFA and FIFA are saying "sure we let you throw all that money in, but as our pockets were getting lined it was okay, but this, what you're planning to do now, that's just not on!".

As a fan I hope it doesn't happen, at least not in the current format.  I suspect the future of football is in PPV via streaming devices where the best players complete regularly against each other, and the global consumption of football does mean we want Barcelona vs Juventus rather than Atalanta vs Rennes.  Ultimately, there's a good chance there's an agreement reached regarding the Champions League and UEFA will accept it as they need the cash-cow teams to serve their own enterprise.  As it stands now though, fans are having their say - it's just a shame they are being whipped up by 'greedy' football made millionaires.
		
Click to expand...

It's bad because of the closed shop. 6 teams earn an extra £300 million a year, in 5 years they have £1.5 billion more than the other 14 teams in the league. There will be no Leicester, West Ham, Wolves or Everton pushing for top 6, it will be impossible. If that is the case we may as well have a different league with just the 14 teams in. All we will do is pay second tier players more money so they can play to not get relegated, might as well pay them less to at least win something.


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## GB72 (Apr 20, 2021)

I am certainly no supporter of this but I would be intrigued to see how UEFA would approach this if, for example, these clubs were breaking away to form a league to replace their domestic league commitments rather than then their European club competition commitments. The Champions League and the Europa League are the UEFA cash cows and to take them away would leave them with serious issues. This new super league could effectively kill off both competitions as well as leaving UEFA with a potential legal battle with the TV companies who have bought rights to a competition that is not now worth anywhere near what they paid. Would they be so vociferous if this proposal left them unaffected and hit the wallets of the national associations and premier league only. 


As I have said, before, I am a follower of football and a club but i would not class myself a fan, I have not shown any of the commitment associated with that so my opinions are from an outsider point of view and not with the level of knowledge that some have on here so happy to be shot down.


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## Orikoru (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The version I’ve heard/seen is that two clubs were not particularly keen in the first place but were faced with the choice of waving the ship goodbye as it sailed towards the dollars or boarding before the gangplank was pulled up.
		
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I don't know who the clubs are, but this is the only reason I could see Spurs or Arsenal being involved really. If they were told it was happening, do they want in or not, they'd have most likely decided it's better to be inside the tent peeing outwards. Or make a stand against it and watch all the competitions you're in become worthless.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I don't know who the clubs are, but this is the only reason I could see Spurs or Arsenal being involved really. If they were told it was happening, do they want in or not, they'd have most likely decided it's better to be inside the tent peeing outwards. Or make a stand against it and watch all the competitions you're in become worthless.
		
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Arsenals involvement far more down to the nationality of their owner and his approach to business rather than anything else I expect


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

Throughout this all though UEFA managed to announce their changes to the CL 

It’s not as extreme as the Super League but it’s a step forward to being a closed shop and also damaging the domestic cups 

Increased number of games to be played - from 6 to 10 

Plus the chance for a big club to get into the CL via a back door 

UEFA are going mad at this all because it takes away the money that they earn - they don’t care about the integrity of the game etc , they would love the level of finances on offer but keep it to themselves as opposed to distribute to the clubs 

There was also talk this Friday that the CL clubs will be banned from this years competition - Real , Chelsea and City but I’m sure they weren’t doing the same for the Europa Lge clubs - so Man Utd and Arsenal continue ? If that’s right why treat them differently - I wonder if it’s because PSG ( Qatar ) benefit from the CL clubs going and the links with PSG and UEFA


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Throughout this all though UEFA managed to announce their changes to the CL

It’s not as extreme as the Super League but it’s a step forward to being a closed shop and also damaging the domestic cups

Increased number of games to be played - from 6 to 10

Plus the chance for a big club to get into the CL via a back door

UEFA are going mad at this all because it takes away the money that they earn - they don’t care about the integrity of the game etc , they would love the level of finances on offer but keep it to themselves as opposed to distribute to the clubs

*There was also talk this Friday that the CL clubs will be banned from this years competition - Real , Chelsea and City but I’m sure they weren’t doing the same for the Europa Lge clubs - so Man Utd and Arsenal continue ? If that’s right why treat them differently - I wonder if it’s because PSG ( Qatar ) benefit from the CL clubs going and the links with PSG and UEFA*

Click to expand...


The talk was both comps, if they throw them out of the CL theyll do the same for Europa 100%, overthinking this part Phil


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

And so we have the situation where significant public voices elsewhere and across the broadcast and print media are being raised in support of the ordinary fan, the ‘man in the street‘, to be protected from the legitimate interests and practices of business - and all and sundry gathering around to rail against six UK businesses doing what they deem to be in the best interests of their owners and shareholders.   Oh the irony.  I cannot say more...i would if I could but I can’t so I shan’t.


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## Orikoru (Apr 20, 2021)

fundy said:



			Arsenals involvement far more down to the nationality of their owner and his approach to business rather than anything else I expect 

Click to expand...

Yeah, to him it would have sounded like a no-brainer. He probably always wondered why football ever had any risk of you not qualifying for the big money tournaments.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah, to him it would have sounded like a no-brainer. He probably always wondered why football ever had any risk of you not qualifying for the big money tournaments.
		
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Has made comments along those lines in the past, as have all the American owners, theyre used to the closed shop security the NFL etc bring and want to replicate it sadly


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

fundy said:



			The talk was both comps, if they throw them out of the CL theyll do the same for Europa 100%, overthinking this part Phil 

Click to expand...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....banned-from-champions-league-finals-danish-fa

maybe overthinking but it wouldn’t surprise me

PSG right now are not joining because of the World Cup imo - again they don’t care about the integrity etc and it wouldn’t take much for them to jump in with everyone


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## larmen (Apr 20, 2021)

It looks like they invited Bayern and Dortmund from Germany. Both clubs are against it. I think they were given 4 weeks to decide.

The Gladbach manager called it the debt league.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....banned-from-champions-league-finals-danish-fa

maybe overthinking but it wouldn’t surprise me

PSG right now are not joining because of the World Cup imo - again they don’t care about the integrity etc and it wouldn’t take much for them to jump in with everyone
		
Click to expand...


https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/news/europa-league-expulsion-not-fair-20422269

_UEFA chief Ceferin has said he will now consider throwing Arsenal, Chelsea and anyone else involved out of UEFA competitions 'as soon as possible'.

"We're still assessing with our legal team but we will take all the sanctions that we can and we will inform you as soon we can," Ceferin said after a UEFA conference on Monday morning_


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## sweaty sock (Apr 20, 2021)

Its just the american model, all the teams are ordained.  They fight it out and theres a rotational system that keeps the top talent in the league but evenly spread.  NFL, NHL, NBA  not only do they print money, they only print the high denominations.

Wether you currently like it or not, this will be an outrageous success, and money will be king as always.


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			It looks like they invited Bayern and Dortmund from Germany. Both clubs are against it. I think they were given 4 weeks to decide.

The Gladbach manager called it the debt league.
		
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I think we should be careful about holding up the German teams as this gold standard of how to act etc. The reason they can stand there and say that they're against it is that, from what I understand, they wouldn't have got it through anyway. In Germany the fans own 50% plus 1 share of the club (bar a couple of exceptions) so it basically any decision needs the consent of the fans for it to happen. If the same ownership was in other countries this would be a complete non-starter based on the outcry.


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## larmen (Apr 20, 2021)

The US system is relying on salary cap and draft to keep it fair, and the league shares the merchandise profits as well.
Some teams still have a geo advantage because players gravitate to living in LA over Minnesota, ...
Players ‘get made’ in high school and college and not in club academy setups.
And sometimes teams just move to another town.

I love US sports but can’t see it happening here. I think it is too different.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I don't know who the clubs are, but this is the only reason I could see Spurs or Arsenal being involved really. If they were told it was happening, do they want in or not, they'd have most likely decided it's better to be inside the tent peeing outwards. Or make a stand against it and watch all the competitions you're in become worthless.
		
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Three (maybe 4, don't know who owns Spurs) of the clubs involved have American owners.  The announcement went out late evening in Europe, or prime time in the USA.  It seems that the ones that weren't keen were the ones without American owners...


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Three (maybe 4, don't know who owns Spurs) of the clubs involved have American owners.  The announcement went out late evening in Europe, or prime time in the USA.  It seems that the ones that weren't keen were the ones without American owners...
		
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Joe Lewis the main owner of spurs, definitely not american


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

fundy said:



			Joe Lewis the main owner of spurs, definitely not american
		
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Couldn't remember, cheers.  So my assumption would be that there are 3 teams driving this from here and they have approached the three main rivals/biggest draw cards to join up.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			The US system is relying on salary cap and draft to keep it fair, and the league shares the merchandise profits as well.
Some teams still have a geo advantage because players gravitate to living in LA over Minnesota, ...
Players ‘get made’ in high school and college and not in club academy setups.
And sometimes teams just move to another town.

I love US sports but can’t see it happening here. I think it is too different.
		
Click to expand...

Baseball has no salary cap and the draft is less relevant because of the time it takes players to reach the major leagues.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Couldn't remember, cheers.  So my assumption would be that there are 3 teams driving this from here and they have approached the three main rivals/biggest draw cards to join up.
		
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3 americans, a russian, and an emirati went into a bar.......

theres a joke in there somewhere just cant see it at the moment lol


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

From another chat board; make of it what you will.

*Some interesting detail in this translated article about the ESL - including the income *
distribution going forward and the fact that Perez want's Madrid's CL tropies 'transferred over' to the new tournament. Also, some of the thinking of the ESL ringleaders.

Superliga, questions and answers

Written by: Paul Tenorio - April 19, 2021

1.- Why was the Super League born?

It has been in the making for several years and was born for economic reasons. The G12 considers that it is "paying for the party", in the words of one of its members, from the rest of football. The audiences of an Osasuna-Elche, a West Ham-Brighton or a Crotone-Genoa do not generate enough money to send a mobile television unit to the stadium to broadcast the game, but these clubs have received substantial emoluments since the television boom, which they cover more than 90% of their budgets, thanks to the economic value that their leagues have for having the G12 teams in them. The presidents of some of these powerful clubs have been for years, with Real Madrid president Florentino Pérezat the head - which has cost him a personal war with Javier Tebas, president of La Liga -, they meet regularly to outline a new competition with which they achieve a fairer distribution of TV revenues based on reported audiences of each team. And the global pandemic has exacerbated the need for these teams to stop getting the crumbs to take their rightful share of the cake. Without unnecessary intermediaries, in addition.

On the other hand, according to various studies and surveys, soccer audiences have been declining alarmingly for several years. Consumption habits have changed and young people are no longer eager to invest an hour and a half of their scattered attention in seeing encounters of little importance or quality. The football business, in that direction, was moving towards unsustainability. The step that has been taken was necessary for its survival, although the pedagogy of this decision will be very difficult to implant in public opinion, which I see as a selfish and greedy movement.

2.- What will the competition format be like?
They will dispute the Super League20 teams each season, the 15 founders and 5 teams that each year will earn their place due to their sporting merits. It has yet to be specified how.

Among those 20 teams, two groups of 10 will be raffled, which will play between them for a total of 18 days, all of them during the week. The first three of each group go to the quarterfinals, while the fourth of each group will play a play-off against the fifth of the other, for the other two places in the quarterfinals. From there, two-legged qualifying rounds until the final, which will be played as a single match on neutral ground. There will be no relegation and the next Super League will be played by the 15 founders and the 5 teams that have made merits for it.

It is false that surprises and giant killing teams that perform great feats are over. Each year there will be five teams that have that opportunity. Winning the competition will be almost impossible for them, but it is also impossible with the current Champions League format, which is distributed year after year by a very select handful of clubs.

Super League format

3.- Is it economically viable? How much money are we talking about?

It is not only feasible, but necessary. The current model was selling out. Behind it are some of the most lucid minds in football history: Florentino , Andrea Agnelli, Joel Glazer, John W. Henry, the JP Morgan bank everything has been studied in detail. Income for the first year is estimated at 7,000 million euros, three and a half times more than what the Champions League generates . To begin with, 3.525 million will be distributed among the founding teams, not equally: 350 for six of them, 225 for four, 112.5 for two and 100 for three clubs.

Regarding the payment system, 32.5% of the annual income will go to the coffers of the 15 founding clubs on a fixed basis and another 32.5% to the 20 participating teams. 20% will be allocated to prizes according to the classification and the other 15% based on marketing income.

4.- If there are 15 permanent places for the founding teams, but only twelve have signed the manifesto, who are the 3?

Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atlético de Madrid, Liverpool, Manchester United, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal, Manchester City, Inter Milan, Juventus and Milan are the G12 of founding clubs. The other three places are reserved for clubs that have doubts right now, either because they are the only representatives of their League (Bayern, which has already ruled against) or also because they do not want a conflict before the Qatar World Cup with this country , owner of the club (PSG). But the members of the G12 hope that both locals and Parisians will end up joining and that is why they have "saved" a place for them. The name of the mysterious 15th team remains to be known. It is said that Dortmund, it is said that Porto ...

5.- Why is it a semi-closed league?
Because the order of the 12 founding clubs towards the international leagues and organizations does not allow them to run the risk of relegation and stay out of the Super League, being at the expense of sanctions and punishments. It would be stupid to defy the established order to expose yourself to that. They will be inside permanently, as are the NBA or NFL teams. It is also very similar to the current Euroleague model.

However, and due to the particular idiosyncrasies of football, they have considered that they should leave the door open to the possibility that any European club that deserves to do so, can participate. Which would make him much stronger. In any case, this is a first format. Who knows how it might evolve over time. It is just the seed of the football of the future.

6.- Is it unsupportive?
No. In fact, it is going to allocate a generous solidarity fund (there is talk of about 1000 million euros, for the 600 that UEFA currently contributes) to the national Federations. In addition, the founding clubs will continue to participate in the national leagues, with which these will depreciate, because compared to the Super League their importance will decline, but much less than they would if they lost their most important clubs. The money from the football pyramid will continue to flow from top to bottom, but the most powerful will obtain figures more in line with what they generate.

It is hard to assimilate for the fans of teams that are left out, which are the majority. And it is very understandable. But that's how the globalized world evolves and that's how football does if it doesn't want to stop spinning. In a short time everyone will enjoy their team in their country, be it Cádiz or Nottingham Forest, and they will dream of seeing them one day in the Super League, where they will also have their favorite and who will eagerly consume as a spectacle without equal that is going to be . Top-level duels with millionaire audiences. Ten "Madrid-Bara" every week.

7.- Is it the end of modest football?

Not in any way. They will continue to play national competitions with the greats of each country, earning a good amount for television rights, and they will have their opportunity each year to enter the Super League, which would give them a formidable economic boost.

Until now, which covered their budget with TV revenues totally disproportionate to the fans / television audience behind them only thanks to the value that the greats bring to the league, the modest clubs were in some way subsidized by these big clubs. After the creation of the Super League they will continue to be. Little changes for them.

8.- Is the economic gap between the participating teams and the rest going to increase?

Yes, without a doubt. Every year more. Like in F1 or the NBA, we are going towards a select competition, in this case semi-closed. The economic gap is going to widen, but not unfairly or greedily. Due to television audiences and due to sporting and economic merits acquired over more than a century of football, the founding clubs are for the first time to receive the money that corresponds to them in relation to the volume of business they generate. They are simply going to take what has always been theirs.

9.- Will you get ahead?

Yes to 99.9%. It is an unstoppable reality. The G12 has the upper hand because without them right now no competition is economically viable except by reducing its income to figures of several decades ago. There is even case law in other sports (skating) that supports the legality of its split: the EU considered that athletes could not be prohibited from participating in competitions parallel to the official ones. All this, obviously, is being studied by the Super League's legal department, which has not taken a single false step.

Continued below...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Couldn't remember, cheers.  So my assumption would be that there are 3 teams driving this from here and they have approached the three main rivals/biggest draw cards to join up.
		
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Twitter also have three clubs as the driving force - Juve , Real Madrid and Man Utd

Looking at the statement been released and copied on each club - there are three statements from three owners - Juve , Madrid and Man Utd


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Part 2;

10.- Can UEFA, FIFA or the national leagues retaliate against the G12?

No. Maybe during the first year, but never in the medium or long term. The founding clubs are aware that, without them, the national leagues could not survive. Those television products would have a residual value. For their part, UEFA and FIFA can do little other than leave the players of these teams out of national team tournaments, something that does not interest them because they would also be drastically devalued. In the case of UEFA, organizing a B tournament is their only way out. The Europa League, or Champions , whatever you want to call it, would become its star tournament, always in the shadow of the Super League in terms of impact, marketing, audience and repercussion. The logical thing is that both the national leagues such as UEFA and FIFA end up going through the hoop and somehow joining the project.
The other reprisals, as Ceferin has announced, can come in the form of a veto to the players of the clubs participating in the major national team tournaments. Although it seems difficult to imagine a European Championship without Sergio Ramos, Cristiano Ronaldo, Griezmann, De Bruyne, Lukaku, Rashford, Kane ...
In addition, the alleged punishment would benefit clubs that have long been clamoring for a reduction in the international calendar, which puts their assets and main assets, which are footballers, at risk.
Ceferin UEFA

11.- What will happen to the Champions League ?

It will be replaced by the Super League. UEFA will have to decide whether to hold a second continental tournament, of much lower appeal, and whether to call it the Champions League, Europa League , Conference League or what you want to call it. The most normal thing is that they do have one or two competitions for teams that fail to qualify for the Super League. One move they could make is to not allow the non-founding teams of the Super League to qualify and play in their tournaments. They would put them between a rock and a hard place and would force them to choose: "either you always play my competition or you play the Super League when you qualify every go who knows how many years." We will see.

12.- What will happen to the winners of the European Cup?

As Florentino Perez the main driver and first president of the Superliga, has ensured with other founding clubs, as it can not be otherwise, which palmares of Champions moves to the Superleague, to equal that in 1992 the European Cup moved to the Champions League . Madrid starts with 13 titles and continues to be the King of Europe. If UEFA decides to reset this record, it will be a symbolic act: the big clubs in Europe will continue to recognize the 13 winged Madrid, the 7 Milan, the 6 Liverpool, etc.

13.- Who will ensure the integrity of the competition?

As for the referees, the options are to hire retired referees while training young referees or to hire current referees with irrefutable offers to join the Super League. As in American sports, you want to put a microphone so that they explain their decisions to the public in a totally transparent way. And there would be an alternative VAR.
In addition, there will be financial control mechanisms (no more than 55% of annual income may be spent on salaries) and a Board composed of members of the 15 founders that will adopt decisions through a qualified majority (66%) and six Committees (financial, television, business, competition, solidarity and fans).

14.- How are the clubs going to face so many games?

This is yet to be defined, but in principle there are two ways. First, they could force national championships to reduce their number of participants. It must be remembered that the position of strength is held by the G12, whose threat to withdraw from the competition would shake the League, the Premier, Serie A, the Bundesliga or whatever lies ahead. Secondly, it is studying to expand the number of members of the squads, so that the teams have more effective and can make very alternative alignments when they are interested. The clubs rule. This is the fundamental premise.

15.- Is the Super League the reason why Real Madrid has remained impassive in recent years in the face of arbitration, calendar, schedule and personal attacks from the president of La Liga?

Yes, that is why. The club was working in parallel for the birth of this new competition. Knowing that in the Spanish League in the future he can continue to be mistreated, and his situation could even worsen. But the relevance both in sporting prestige and in the economic sphere of one competition with respect to the other is going to be ridiculous. Regarding the attacks by Javier Tebas, Florentino Pérez has always cared very little. He knows where they come from: from his demand first of a greater portion of the television cake and secondly of the creation of that Super League, of which the president of the League has always been perfectly aware.
In Madrid, beyond launching a protest through Emilio Butragueo or some sporadic statement by Florentino Pérez, public or private, no "corridor" work has been done to correct a treatment that was considered to be on the verge of prevarication. Efforts have been focused on this project that has just seen the light of day.

16.- Will soccer improve or empower?

It is very difficult to think that this is not going to get better, as after the creation of the European Cup 66 years ago (also promoted by the president of Real Madrid, then Santiago Bernabéu). Each week there will be ten matches of the best possible football level that will capture the attention of millions of fans and viewers around the world. The business model, studied by investors who have logically calculated and ensured the economic return, will certainly grow spectacularly. For now, Juventus or Manchester United have already skyrocketed this morning. It must also be remembered that the current model is unsustainable and has been losing viewers and impact year after year. In France, for example, Jaume Roures, owner of television rights, has already defaulted on Ligue-1.

17.- What are Tottenham, Arsenal, Atleti or City, who have not even won a European Cup?

This is controversial. The criteria for forming the G12 have been sporting merits and economic strength. That's why clubs like Tottenham, Arsenal or Manchester City are there despite not having the highest continental competition in their showcases. A separate case is Atlético de Madrid , which is neither among the richest clubs nor has a very successful track record. The presence of the rojiblanco club has been a personal endeavor of Florentino Pérez from the beginning, as he has always had the idea of going to the Super League with the two historical rivals of Real Madrid . Barcelona squareIt falls due to its own record, and also due to its traditional economic strength, although right now it is close to bankruptcy. This change has come as a great lifeline to him. But Atleti has directly been invited to the table of the greats without being so, which Miguel ngel Gil Marn has accepted without hesitation. This is a historic opportunity for Atlético to establish itself definitively among the highest nobility in European football. The outrage with this movement on the part of the rojiblanca fans is completely incomprehensible, that if there were no pandemic they should be in Neptune celebrating in style. And enormously grateful to Florentino Pérez forever.

18.- When does the Super League start?

The idea is to do it now, in August 2021, but nothing is guaranteed. It could be later. There are still many things in the air.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

Wow - whoever is answering though questions is 1 - arrogant beyond belief, 2. On the Real Madrid payroll and 3 - has no clue about how the fans feel about it all and how it affects them

Reading that people couldn’t wait to watch it fail horribly


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## Orikoru (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow - whoever is answering though questions is 1 - arrogant beyond belief, 2. On the Real Madrid payroll and 3 - has no clue about how the fans feel about it all and how it affects them

Reading that people couldn’t wait to watch it fail horribly
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't really my take from reading it - more sad acceptance. It really looks like they are holding all of the aces and have football by the short and curlies - and they definitely know it. Until now I have been thinking this wouldn't happen - after reading all that I'm changing my mind. 

Time to start thinking about which new team to start following.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...n-Super-League.html?__twitter_impression=true

it would be a good first step to see the players make their voice known as well as the fans.


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## D-S (Apr 20, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Baseball has no salary cap and the draft is less relevant because of the time it takes players to reach the major leagues.
		
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“ While MLB does not have a set salary cap, the luxury tax charges teams with high payrolls a considerable amount of money, giving teams ample reason to want to keep their payrolls below that level."


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## GB72 (Apr 20, 2021)

What is worrying at the moment is that the more i hear and read, the more that it feels that this was announced as a done deal and not a bargaining chip. Hope that I am very wrong on this point but it seems awfully advanced (and planning seems to have been going on for a long time) for something aimed to extract concessions from UEFA


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 20, 2021)

D-S said:



			“ While MLB does not have a set salary cap, the luxury tax charges teams with high payrolls a considerable amount of money, giving teams ample reason to want to keep their payrolls below that level."
		
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Yeah right - tell the Dodgers with a payroll the side of Liberia's national debt and my Tampa Bay Rays about that


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## RichA (Apr 20, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Yeah right - tell the Dodgers with a payroll the side of Liberia's national debt and my Tampa Bay Rays about that  

Click to expand...

Would that be the LA Dodgers, formerly of Brooklyn? Mobile franchises. 

I can see this ending up like a cross between Football Manager and those YouTube golf videos most of us watch...
Another 1,000,000 subscribers and we'll make a bid for Messi. 50,000 likes to bring Bale on for the last 12 minutes.
As I heard on the radio earlier, 20 million people around the planet paying a couple of quid to watch the game on their phone every week trumps 50,000 local fans paying £40.

It will certainly separate the players and managers who love the game from those who love the money.

The big games will end up being something on in the background when you go for a drink in a sports bar, rather than the main event.


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## larmen (Apr 20, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Time to start thinking about which new team to start following. 

Click to expand...

Well, I couldn’t just pick a team, so I can’t really care about it. WERDER Bremen is never going to play it, and just picking Bayern or Dortmund would be wrong. I guess it is similar for Villa fans, or Ajax, or Roma, ... They wouldn’t suddenly walk into a sports direct and buy a Spurs shirt.

But those 30m new fans in Asia would.


Let’s take them out. Even without City someone will win the premiership this year. And next year. ... And a CL final will be played as well, Roma vs. Copenhagen or something like that will still be a final. Maybe have a champions league for champions? That would be controversial ;-)


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## road2ruin (Apr 20, 2021)

Amazon now trying to distance themselves from the ESL by saying that they were not invovled in any of the discussions and haven't been approached to broadcast any.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384520801844547589
🤔🤷‍♂️ anyone surprised


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			Would that be the LA Dodgers, formerly of Brooklyn? Mobile franchises.
		
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Nice to see you are up to date on recent events.   That was 1958.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384520801844547589
🤔🤷‍♂️ anyone surprised
		
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Will that be a LoC or a LoC + RUp's + 3rds + 4th+ 5th


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## Orikoru (Apr 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			Well, I couldn’t just pick a team, so I can’t really care about it. WERDER Bremen is never going to play it, and just picking Bayern or Dortmund would be wrong. I guess it is similar for Villa fans, or Ajax, or Roma, ... They wouldn’t suddenly walk into a sports direct and buy a Spurs shirt.

But those 30m new fans in Asia would.


Let’s take them out. Even without City someone will win the premiership this year. And next year. ... And a CL final will be played as well, Roma vs. Copenhagen or something like that will still be a final. Maybe have a champions league for champions? That would be controversial ;-)
		
Click to expand...

It sounds like you have my comment backwards, I meant as a Spurs fan but wanting no part of Super League - but still a lover of football, the _sport_ - I would have to start following someone else. (Tongue in cheek of course, it wouldn't be the same.)


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## RichA (Apr 20, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Nice to see you are up to date on recent events.   That was 1958.
		
Click to expand...

I was trying to make the point that mobile sports franchises aren't exactly new.
Give it a few years and the English 6 will probably base themselves wherever is most convenient / profitable.


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## larmen (Apr 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			I was trying to make the point that mobile sports franchises aren't exactly new.
Give it a few years and the English 6 will probably base themselves wherever is most convenient / profitable.
		
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There are plenty of new build arenas in Qatar, aren’t there? ;-)


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## larmen (Apr 20, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			It sounds like you have my comment backwards, I meant as a Spurs fan but wanting no part of Super League - but still a lover of football, the _sport_ - I would have to start following someone else. (Tongue in cheek of course, it wouldn't be the same.)
		
Click to expand...

Yes, got it wrong. But in the end it’s the same, can’t just pick a new team after so many years.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 20, 2021)

https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2111866/statement-from-the-board

Fantastic statement. Good on them.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow - whoever is answering though questions is 1 - arrogant beyond belief, 2. On the Real Madrid payroll and 3 - has no clue about how the fans feel about it all and how it affects them

Reading that people couldn’t wait to watch it fail horribly
		
Click to expand...

https://theathletic.co.uk/author/paul-tenorio/


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

protests starting at Stamford Bridge 👍👏👏


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2021)

The politicians are stepping in now.........worse case scenario alert


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## RichA (Apr 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2111866/statement-from-the-board

Fantastic statement. Good on them.
		
Click to expand...

Custodians of their clubs. 100% how they should view it. Everton have just been promoted out of my historically, randomly "disliked" football clubs. Liverpool and Man Utd relegated.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

I see Chelsea have sent Petr Cech out to try and get the fans to stop sitting in the road and let the team bus in lol


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384557485680480259


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

Good work Chelsea 👏👏 let’s hope the other English clubs follow suit and quickly


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384566233266282497


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Fans of Arsenal, Spurs, Utd, City and Liverpool are required to go and sit in the road in front of the team bus before their next games plse, seems thats all thats needed


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

chatter that City pulling out next


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## Fade and Die (Apr 20, 2021)

fundy said:



			chatter that City pulling out next
		
Click to expand...

I cannot see any reason why Man City are even involved in this. They have spent a lot of money in Manchester trying to raise their moral profile and they hardly need the money do they ?


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## Bazzatron (Apr 20, 2021)

Points deduction now please.


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## IanM (Apr 20, 2021)

....and the concession the clubs get from UEFA for withdrawing IS.....

....probably what they were aiming in the first place!  Call me a cynic!


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2021)

City just tweeted they aren’t taking part


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## Tashyboy (Apr 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			City just tweeted they aren’t taking part
		
Click to expand...

Thank the lord for that.


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

Well, that was a 48 hour PR disaster.

As you were..........


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

So what have they gained then - what concessions have UEFA given them - and also now will people focus on the shocking changes that UEFA have announced to the CL , that’s not hugely different to a super league


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2021)

Pack of cards

Chelsea and Manchester City are set to pull out of the European Super League, Sky News understands.

Former FA chairman Greg Dyke describes it as "the beginning of the end" and says that if it's true it will lead to the other clubs pulling out.


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Pack of cards

Chelsea and Manchester City are set to pull out of the European Super League, Sky News understands.

Former FA chairman Greg Dyke describes it as "the beginning of the end" and says that if it's true it will lead to the other clubs pulling out.
		
Click to expand...

My hope now, as the Glazers and Ed Woodward have demonstrated beyond all doubt that they couldn’t give a toss about the fans, is that they are hounded out of Manchester, never to return.

EDIT: Not literally, in the case of the Glazers, as most of the family don’t actually know where Old Trafford is.


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## chrisd (Apr 20, 2021)

I'm devastated!  Crystal Palace's only chance of winning the PL  gone ............


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My hope now, as the Glazers and Ed Woodward have demonstrated beyond all doubt that they couldn’t give a toss about the fans, is that they are hounded out of Manchester, never to return.

EDIT: Not literally, in the case of the Glazers, as most of the family don’t actually know where Old Trafford is.
		
Click to expand...


sounds like Woodward may be gone


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

*Richard Jolly* @RichJolly
35m


There is a growing possibility that Jose Mourinho may be the only European Super League manager ever to be sacked. The Special One.


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## SteveW86 (Apr 20, 2021)

Rumours Woodward has resigned


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## Orikoru (Apr 20, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Rumours Woodward has resigned
		
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United fans are loving the Super League now!


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

fundy said:



			sounds like Woodward may be gone
		
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I don’t see how he can stay. Today just gets better.


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## GB72 (Apr 20, 2021)

Surely this has killed off any bargaining position with uefa. They did not compromise, they were pressured into backing down so surely they cannot use the breakaway threat going forward.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 20, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			United fans are loving the Super League now!
		
Click to expand...

You should have realised the whole thing was gonna collapse when Tottenham signed up. It’s all gone Very Spursy 😂


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

And still no one at Arsenal seems to know what is going on lol. Not been a peep from the club from when this was first announced and still all quiet. Get Stan Out!!!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			You should have realised the whole thing was gonna collapse when Tottenham signed up. It’s all gone Very Spursy 😂
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384578237167251458


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## ger147 (Apr 20, 2021)

So Chelsea and Man City have already pulled out, Woodward gone from Man Utd and Agnelli gone from Juventus? That was an amazingly successful 48 hours.

I'm sure Big Sam will be appointed as the new manager of the ESL any minute now to try and keep them up...🙈🙈


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## Fade and Die (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384578237167251458

Click to expand...

Was a bit like Bananaman joining The Avengers 😂


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2021)

Agnelli resigned from Juve, Madrid about to pull out and tumbleweed keeps rolling through North London lol


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384535231903019009


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

So Woodward gone, and it sounds as though his counterpart at Juve is following suit. I hope the rest do likewise.

If this shambles demonstrates just one thing, it’s that the money men have made a catastrophic misjudgment regarding the very business which makes the tills ring. They misjudged the response of the fans, the managers, and the players themselves.  It’s absolutely right that Woodward and his kind pay the price - their lack of understanding about everything which underpins football is staggering.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 20, 2021)

Well done to all those who doubted it would happen, I was worried.


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## Jimaroid (Apr 20, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Surely this has killed off any bargaining position with uefa. They did not compromise, they were pressured into backing down so surely they cannot use the breakaway threat going forward.
		
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I am thinking along these lines also. It seems to me UEFA have a stronger negotiating position now than they did before.


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done to all those who doubted it would happen, I was worried.

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Only for a couple of days though!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

If the ESL were watching this evening's game Chelsea wouldn't need to resign, they'd be thrown out.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'm devastated!  Crystal Palace's only chance of winning the PL  gone ............
		
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You still wouldn't finish top 4 😉


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## chrisd (Apr 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You still wouldn't finish top 4 😉
		
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Harsh, but possibly fair !


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Gary Neville is becoming seriously tedious in his self-appointed position of judge, jury & executioner.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Harsh, but possibly fair !
		
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No possibly about it; we deserved nothing and stole a point.


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Gary Neville is becoming seriously tedious in his self-appointed position of judge, jury & executioner.
		
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Hard to disagree with him, though.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Gary Neville is becoming seriously tedious in his self-appointed position of judge, jury & executioner.
		
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You can't knock him for his passion for football and he cares about the fans and players.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Hard to disagree with him, though.
		
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On some points, yes, on other points he really needs to think before running his mouth.  Souness sounds measured, Neville is coming across like a political agitator with an agenda.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			You can't knock him for his passion for football and he cares about the fans and players.
		
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The passion, no, the manner of the delivery, yes.


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## Billysboots (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			On some points, yes, on other points he really needs to think before running his mouth.  Souness sounds measured, Neville is coming across like a political agitator with an agenda.
		
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Agreed. Neville talks sense but at times his passion gets in the way. I do occasionally cringe.

I actually dislike Souness with a passion. He’s dour, argumentative and generally comes across as an unpleasant individual. But he has spoken very eloquently this evening.

A strange 48 hours. If you’d have told me when I woke this morning that by the end of the day Ed Woodward’s world would crumble and I’d become a Souness fan, I’d have had a right royal chuckle.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The passion, no, the manner of the delivery, yes.
		
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Fair enough, but I like him because he's not frightened to speak his mind.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed. *Neville talks sense but at times his passion gets in the way.* I do occasionally cringe.

I actually dislike Souness with a passion. He’s dour, argumentative and generally comes across as an unpleasant individual. But he has spoken very eloquently this evening.

A strange 48 hours. If you’d have told me when I woke this morning that by the end of the day Ed Woodward’s world would crumble and I’d become a Souness fan, I’d have had a right royal chuckle.
		
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Yesterday he wanted this to collapse.  Now that it appears that two teams have apparently seen sense and obliged him, he wants huge fines & changes of ownership for those teams for withdrawing.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			Fair enough, but *I like him because he's not frightened to speak his mind*.
		
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Get that and can agree with it to an large extent, but he was taking it a bit far for me.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

I think the way the Palace chairman Steve Parish came out of it very well; realised the issue primarily related to UEFA, not the Premier League and was looking for conciliation, not retaliation.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Latest news on Sky is that Arsenal & Spurs have started the withdrawal procedure.  Spurs statement very apologetic.

So Carragher & Neville's former teams are the last two standing; be interesting to hear their take on that...


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## Cherry13 (Apr 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Latest news on Sky is that Arsenal & Spurs have started the withdrawal procedure.  Spurs statement very apologetic.

So Carragher & Neville's former teams are the last two standing; be interesting to hear their take on that... 

Click to expand...

They’ve all collectively pulled out, pretty much the same time.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 20, 2021)

Gerrin!!!!!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			They’ve all collectively pulled out, pretty much the same time.
		
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Fair enough, but not how it was being announced on Sky.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 20, 2021)

Well in Chelsea fans.


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## MadAdey (Apr 21, 2021)

Not read all of the post so sorry if I am repeating someone else.

So happy to see the teams backing out. But is it really the teams that are backing out, or is it they are afraid of the comeback from the fans. Funny how none of them said anything about not wanting to be part of it until the fans got involved. Why would any team want to be part of this? You will need that extra money to have a big enough squad. This ESL would add a minimum of 18 games to the season for teams, so with the EPL that would be 56 games. They would build 2 squads one for EPL and one for the ESL. They would have to because the 1st 18 weeks of the season the gonna be playing 2 games every week. So guess what?????????? fans of teams like West Brom, Fulham etc are not ever going to see the big players coming to their grounds.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Don't let the owners forget this ever 

They should be ashamed of themsleves 

10 point deduction for each of the teams Involved

Ban from Europe for next season 

Any prize money from the premier League this season taken off them and equally divided between the rest of the league 

Should stop anyone thinking of doing anything like this again.


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## RichA (Apr 21, 2021)

That would punish the fans and staff, more than the owners. I think they are already talking about reconciliation and healing, seasoned with some serious grovelling. 

I'd like to see the Champions League cut to involve actual champions and maybe domestic cup winners, rather than fourth placed teams getting in, but it won't happen.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 21, 2021)

Whilst I’m glad the ESL is now dead in the water, I wonder how many of the other PL clubs owners would have done exactly the same as the 6 had they been given the chance. I suspect more than their fans  want to admit.


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## IainP (Apr 21, 2021)

"None of the Spanish and Italian sides have yet released a statement after the six Premier League teams pulled out."

Media in UK/England has understandably been quite inwardly focused. Were there similar protests etc. in Spain & Italy?


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## Fade and Die (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Don't let the owners forget this ever

They should be ashamed of themsleves

10 point deduction for each of the teams Involved

Ban from Europe for next season

Any prize money from the premier League this season taken off them and equally divided between the rest of the league

Should stop anyone thinking of doing anything like this again.
		
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I will go out on a limb and state now, every one of those clubs will get a better cut of the money from European football going forward. There will be no consequences from what they have done.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 21, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Whilst I’m glad the ESL is now dead in the water, I wonder how many of the other PL clubs owners would have done exactly the same as the 6 had they been given the chance. I suspect more than their wants want to admit.
		
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100%...I bet when Chelsea pulled out last night Karen Brady was on the phone to Florentino Perez asking if West Ham can take their place!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I will go out on a limb and state now, every one of those clubs will get a better cut of the money from European football going forward. There will be no consequences from what they have done.
		
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100%

The new champions League reforms are superleague in another form

More games on TV.. more money 

More spaces for those elite who don't qualify through the league 

Just still don't get how spurs got to the table .. serious good work on their part .. I mean arsenal may be a shambles ATM but they have won the league how many times? Same with United .. Chelsea have won champs league .. Liverpool have .. city won the league few times now 

What exactly have spurs done to get it? I'd argue Leicester have done more.. they have actually won the premier League ...


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## Billysboots (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Don't let the owners forget this ever

They should be ashamed of themsleves

10 point deduction for each of the teams Involved

Ban from Europe for next season

Any prize money from the premier League this season taken off them and equally divided between the rest of the league

Should stop anyone thinking of doing anything like this again.
		
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No, no, no.

It is the collective opposition of fans, players and managers which has brought this proposal crashing down. By docking clubs points and handing out bans you punish the very people who have saved the day - how is that fair?

It’s the owners who need punishing. There needs to be an urgent review of club ownership rules in this country to prevent the likes of the Glazer family owning football clubs.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			No, no, no.

It is the collective opposition of fans, players and managers which has brought this proposal crashing down. By docking clubs points and handing out bans you punish the very people who have saved the day - how is that fair?

It’s the owners who need punishing. There needs to be an urgent review of club ownership rules in this country to prevent the likes of the Glazer family owning football clubs.
		
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Football won. For now. But the unbridled greed of these owners has no limit. It's no surprise that the two clubs who weren't in it for the money were the first to crack. 

Legislation HAS to be brought in to ensure this never happens again. I'm sure there are enough creative ideas in The FA and Downing Street to make it so.


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## IainP (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			100%
.....
Just still don't get how spurs got to the table .. serious good work on their part .. I mean arsenal may be a shambles ATM but they have won the league how many times? Same with United .. Chelsea have won champs league .. Liverpool have .. city won the league few times now

What exactly have spurs done to get it? I'd argue Leicester have done more.. they have actually won the premier League ...
		
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Surely it wasn't about what they'd "done" in terms of winning...
http://www.tottenhamblog.com/2021/03/28/how-spurs-became-big-in-asia/


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Well in Chelsea fans. 

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As pleasing as it is that we are now apparently out, it is far more disappointing that we were ever involved in the first place.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 21, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Football won. For now. But the unbridled greed of these owners has no limit. It's no surprise that the two clubs who weren't in it for the money were the first to crack.

Legislation HAS to be brought in to ensure this never happens again. I'm sure there are enough creative ideas in The FA and Downing Street to make it so.
		
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How many clubs fans have in the past protested about a chairman/owner of a club not “investing” in the club to bring in more players so the fans can hopefully get success?
Fans demand success and more players brought in usually on ever growing contracts. Let’s not kid ourselves that our demands for the clubs success hasn’t had any contributory  factor in all of this.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			No, no, no.

It is the collective opposition of fans, players and managers which has brought this proposal crashing down. By docking clubs points and handing out bans you punish the very people who have saved the day - how is that fair?

It’s the owners who need punishing. There needs to be an urgent review of club ownership rules in this country to prevent the likes of the Glazer family owning football clubs.
		
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By letting them get away with it leaves them open to  try again

Make an example of them


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			No, no, no.

It is the collective opposition of fans, players and managers which has brought this proposal crashing down. By docking clubs points and handing out bans you punish the very people who have saved the day - how is that fair?

It’s the owners who need punishing. There needs to be an urgent review of club ownership rules in this country to prevent the likes of the Glazer family owning football clubs.
		
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This really. 

I understand how any of the teams, if invited, would accept the "opportunity". If you are offered the chance to be part of it and get that sort of income guaranteed, in today's world of football, it would be financial suicide to reject the offer. I think this was all about creating a European version of Major League Soccer, which is just not how we play. The whole point of the league system is that there is always something to play for, winning has rewards, and losing has consequences. If that is taken away, whilst still guaranteeing money far greater than you would receive in the current setup it destroys the whole fabric of competition. I think the whole thing was dreamed up by the owners, I would be surprised if any of the players or managers had any say in it at all, let alone agreed to it. Punishing the teams by docking points or bans, you are effectively punishing the players, and fans, who had no say. Somehow, the owners need punishing in a way that doesn't effect the players, managers and fans. Not sure how that can be done, perhaps there is a way they can be ejected from their positions as owners?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			This really. 

I understand how any of the teams, if invited, would accept the "opportunity". If you are offered the chance to be part of it and get that sort of income guaranteed, in today's world of football, it would be financial suicide to reject the offer. I think this was all about creating a European version of Major League Soccer, which is just not how we play. The whole point of the league system is that there is always something to play for, winning has rewards, and losing has consequences. If that is taken away, whilst still guaranteeing money far greater than you would receive in the current setup it destroys the whole fabric of competition. I think the whole thing was dreamed up by the owners, I would be surprised if any of the players or managers had any say in it at all, let alone agreed to it. Punishing the teams by docking points or bans, you are effectively punishing the players, and fans, who had no say. Somehow, the owners need punishing in a way that doesn't effect the players, managers and fans. Not sure how that can be done, perhaps there is a way they can be ejected from their positions as owners?
		
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But when a team goes into administration...it's a points deduction 

When they break ffp.. it's a transfer ban 

When they break transfer rules it's a transfer ban 

Any of them the fans fault? Yet they are punished ...


They should be punished greatly for agreeing to it. Pure greed. Motivation by only money 

Disgusting behaviour and their needs to be examples set


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			No, no, no.

It is the collective opposition of fans, players and managers which has brought this proposal crashing down. By docking clubs points and handing out bans you punish the very people who have saved the day - how is that fair?

It’s the owners who need punishing. There needs to be an urgent review of club ownership rules in this country to prevent the likes of the Glazer family owning football clubs.
		
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Very naive also to think it's "saved" anything 

They have snuck in the champions League reform which is the super League in another form 
..

Smoke and mirrors


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

Not really sure how you can punish a business for trying to set up a perfectly legal alternative marketplace. Handing down punishments would not be a good look for UEFA, particularly in their current position.
You can argue that punishment would deter clubs from trying again. You could also argue it would encourage them to try again to wrestle the control from UEFA.


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## rksquire (Apr 21, 2021)

So the 'big 6' have have pulled out, the Champions League reforms got lost in the middle somewhere with 'special status' entries and more money and bigger prize funds about to be announced for that - did the teams not achieve exactly what they wanted?   There won't be any meaningful punishments (does there need to be?), at the end of the day, different business in the same industry floated a plan that would make them money and it hasn't paid off; I know football is often an ethereal term but these clubs exist because of pounds and pence.

All said, _there is the additional disgrace of the actions of UEFA and the UK Governments immediate response in all this_ - they accused the six of 'greed', but it is their own 'greed' that motivated their reactions.  *Patrick Bamford* said it best and this should be the takeaway: 

*“It’s amazing the amount of uproar that comes in to the game when somebody’s pockets are being hurt.
“It’s a shame it’s not like that when all the things that go wrong with things at the minute, racism and stuff like that."*

UEFA and Boris Johnson shouldn't be settling back slapping each other on the back, they should take their energies and address the racism issue.  If they can stop the ESL in 48 hours, I'll give them 72 hours to sort racism - or isn't there any monetary value in that?


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But when a team goes into administration...it's a points deduction

When they break ffp.. it's a transfer ban

When they break transfer rules it's a transfer ban

Any of them the fans fault? Yet they are punished ...


They should be punished greatly for agreeing to it. Pure greed. Motivation by only money

Disgusting behaviour and their needs to be examples set
		
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Docking lower leagues teams for going into administration is a ridiculous concept and is at the heart of this matter. The football authorities have long ignored that there is a direct correlation between what Rotherham pay a player and what Man U / Chelsea pay. And yet, because FFP is so weak the big teams get all the shiny trophies and the small teams can’t cope with high wages and go into administration. And then they get docked points and the gap widens.
FFP and transfer breaches are a deliberate way of trying to gain an advantage on the pitch and are breaches of clear rules. The ESL saga is entirely different


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## Crow (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't follow football apart from checking results for my team so don't really have a grasp of all this but, I think an ESL or something similar will happen within the next two or three years.
One of the most telling remarks for me was about the young no longer being interested in football.

If this is true, and I suspect that it is to a large degree, then a more "glamorous" format and a fan base with less of the traditional dyed-in-the-wool traits could be the answer to keeping the money coming in.   
An ESL with razzmatazz, various viewing platforms and a world audience would do that.


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## GG26 (Apr 21, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			How many clubs fans have in the past protested about a chairman/owner of a club not “investing” in the club to bring in more players so the fans can hopefully get success?
Fans demand success and more players brought in usually on ever growing contracts. Let’s not kid ourselves that our demands for the clubs success hasn’t had any contributory  factor in all of this.
		
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Whilst this is true, I don’t see it as the main driver for the ESL.  The ESL was purely to maximise returns for the investors.

Would be interesting to know that Top would have done if invited here in Leicester.  I would like to think that he would not have joined.  He and his father Vishai before him are held to be part of the community and I can’t think of a single negative comment about them for several years.  We feel truly blessed that they took ownership of the club and the fact that the club are doing so well shows that good owners can succeed.


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## Piece (Apr 21, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			How many clubs fans have in the past protested about a chairman/owner of a club not “investing” in the club to bring in more players so the fans can hopefully get success?
Fans demand success and more players brought in usually on ever growing contracts. Let’s not kid ourselves that our demands for the clubs success hasn’t had any contributory  factor in all of this.
		
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There are various ways that football can flourish monetary-wise, whilst preserving and balancing the history, heritage and soul of our game. The current arrangements since 1992, although seedy in various places (sharing of wealth being one), are within acceptable limits imho. The ESL was a massive step too far.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

UEFA hasn’t “snook” anything in we didn’t know about and dome of the changes that come in this year and next (I believe) were announced last year, the Palace chairman was talking about it on monday night.

UEFA is corrupt in my opinion, but let’s not forget, every team still has a chance under their rules, the ESL teams went behind everybodies back to look after themselves and deny others oppurtunities.

As was pointed out last night the ESL Contract was 177 pages thick, this deal they put together wasn’t put together on a whim or in a day or 2, they’ve being working together behind everyone else’s back for months, if not longer.

Something needs to be done, what? I don’t know, but it certainly shouldn’t be simply forgotten about and let the spotlight turn on UEFA, for all UEFA’s issues the “big” Clubs still get the lion share and it’s them who want more.

Focus on UEFA, but also deal with the deceit and lies from those Clubs involved in  the ESL.


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## Captainron (Apr 21, 2021)

Would have been nice to see different clubs challenging for the league title without the 6.


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## Bdill93 (Apr 21, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Would have been nice to see different clubs challenging for the league title without the 6.
		
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I was actually looking forward to a league without them.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

People wanting the clubs punished for the last 48 hours will be mainly looking at the gains that could be gotten from that for their own club - just the same as the demands for null and void when their club was facing relegation last year 

Morals are long gone in football and if all 14 clubs were offered the chance to earn £350mil a year extra on top of everything else there is no doubt those other owners would leap at it - they all lap up the money ,none of them turn down the premier league extra money and they fight like made to stay in and for others to join them. 

Football a long time ago stopped being a sport first and become a business and those business men that own clubs didn’t become rich with morals and being nice. 

Year ago all people used to care about was the 11 players on the pitch , transfers didn’t matter , owners didn’t matter 

Sky , Premier League , UEFA , FIFA changed all that 

Everyone is scrambling around finding a way to get players like Haaland - he will only be paid a cool £1mil a week , agent getting £50mil , - it’s disgusting but then it’s business 

The clubs aren’t going to get fined or docked points or relegated or get to kicked because those clubs are needed to ensure the premier league keep getting the money rolling in and all those other clubs need that money to keep going


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2021)

Can we childishly call them by their 'franchise names' for the remainder of the season? We can stop when the new season starts, if we really have to, but a little humiliation would go down well .

People do like a star against a name as well. We could put a star next to each of the six for the next 5 seasons, just so they remember


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People wanting the clubs punished for the last 48 hours will be mainly looking at the gains that could be gotten from that for their own club - just the same as the demands for null and void when their club was facing relegation last year

Morals are long gone in football and if all 14 clubs were offered the chance to earn £350mil a year extra on top of everything else there is no doubt those other owners would leap at it - they all lap up the money ,none of them turn down the premier league extra money and they fight like made to stay in and for others to join them.

Football a long time ago stopped being a sport first and become a business and those business men that own clubs didn’t become rich with morals and being nice.

Year ago all people used to care about was the 11 players on the pitch , transfers didn’t matter , owners didn’t matter

Sky , Premier League , UEFA , FIFA changed all that

Everyone is scrambling around finding a way to get players like Haaland - he will only be paid a cool £1mil a week , agent getting £50mil , - it’s disgusting but then it’s business

The clubs aren’t going to get fined or docked points or relegated or get to kicked because those clubs are needed to ensure the premier league keep getting the money rolling in and all those other clubs need that money to keep going
		
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Said through Red Glasses, how would any of them being fined, let’s say, £1,000,000 with that money going to the EFL Clubs or grassroots Football benefit the other 14?

The facts are simple your owners along with others went behind the backs of everyone else to look after themselves and why did none of the other Clubs turn down the Premier League? Well for one reason it was because they all had a say in it and all had a vote!

Maybe yours and the rest of the other greedy owners may of pulled this off if they’d of been open and honest about it and acted in a different way.

The easiest way this will be buried is to shift the blame on to others and mudfy the waters, eventually we’ll get the pity party of these Clubs having no choice in doing what they did.🤦‍♂️


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Not really sure how you can punish a business for trying to set up a perfectly legal alternative marketplace. Handing down punishments would not be a good look for UEFA, particularly in their current position.
You can argue that punishment would deter clubs from trying again. You could also argue it would encourage them to try again to wrestle the control from UEFA.
		
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Not sure you quite understand how the PL works, it’s not down to just 6 Clubs to tell the other 14 how things will work in the future, the ESL wasn’t just a perfectly alternative marketplace, it depended on the PL doing what they were told by the 6.

Weird how fans from the other “Big 6” Clubs wanted City banned/punished etc when found guilty of breakin FFP rules, but now they’ve been caught out we are getting the “it’s not fair on the fans” to punish them, surely the City fans had nothing to do with breaking the FFP rules?

First thing that needs to be established is if any actual rules have been broken, until we know that, any talk of punishments should be shelved.

I believe there needs to be some accountability, what or how? I don’t know, otherwise this hasn’t been stopped, just delayed.


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			100%

The new champions League reforms are superleague in another form

More games on TV.. more money

More spaces for those elite who don't qualify through the league

Just still don't get how spurs got to the table .. serious good work on their part .. I mean arsenal may be a shambles ATM but they have won the league how many times? Same with United .. Chelsea have won champs league .. Liverpool have .. city won the league few times now

What exactly have spurs done to get it? I'd argue Leicester have done more.. they have actually won the premier League ...
		
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https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

If the German clubs and PSG declined than that puts us in the top 12. I was going to look for West Ham in the list but I got bored of scrolling.



Bunkermagnet said:



			Whilst I’m glad the ESL is now dead in the water, I wonder how many of the other PL clubs owners would have done exactly the same as the 6 had they been given the chance. I suspect more than their fans  want to admit.
		
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Every single one of them would have. Ask a chairman "we're going to set up this new venture which is basically printing money for all of us, would you like to be a part of it, or do you want to miss out and pick up the scraps with everyone else?" and every single one of them would have said 'where do we sign?'.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

If the German clubs and PSG declined than that puts us in the top 12. I was going to look for West Ham in the list but I got bored of scrolling.


Every single one of them would have. Ask a chairman "we're going to set up this new venture which is basically printing money for all of us, would you like to be a part of it, or do you want to miss out and pick up the scraps with everyone else?" and every single one of them would have said 'where do we sign?'.
		
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No they wouldn’t, Everton certainly wouldn’t as per their statement yesterday plus why do you think our Clubs are all worse than Bayern or PSG who refused.

I see “Project we had no choice” has started.


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			No they wouldn’t, Everton certainly wouldn’t as per their statement yesterday plus why do you think our Clubs are all worse than Bayern or PSG who refused.

I see “Project we had no choice” has started.
		
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Were Everton asked?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Were Everton asked? 

Click to expand...

Are yous going to have a bus parade for qualifying for the ESL.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Said through Red Glasses, how would any of them being fined, let’s say, £1,000,000 with that money going to the EFL Clubs or grassroots Football benefit the other 14?

The facts are simple your owners along with others went behind the backs of everyone else to look after themselves and why did none of the other Clubs turn down the Premier League? Well for one reason it was because they all had a say in it and all had a vote!

Maybe yours and the rest of the other greedy owners may of pulled this off if they’d of been open and honest about it and acted in a different way.

The easiest way this will be buried is to shift the blame on to others and mudfy the waters, eventually we’ll get the pity party of these Clubs having no choice in doing what they did.🤦‍♂️
		
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And your posting from a purely from a spurned club level - 

No one is shifting blame and every single fan of the clubs who were involved were very critical of it all , didn’t want it to happen and were United with all other fans in their desire for it not to happen - football tribalism for once was put on the back burner so that it could be stopped 

Now it’s clear that it’s back to normal and the tribalism is back with demands for punishments - rival clubs fan wanting to see the clubs punished. 

Nothing has changed in football And nothing will change - it’s a money business and they all want a slice of the pie


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Are yous going to have a bus parade for qualifying for the ESL. 

Click to expand...

The point is I would take their sanctimonious statement with a pinch of salt if they weren't even asked. I highly doubt any PL chairman would have declined knowing the top teams were all in for it, as all you do is risk getting left further behind.


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And your posting from a purely from a spurned club level -

No one is shifting blame and every single fan of the clubs who were involved were very critical of it all , didn’t want it to happen and were United with all other fans in their desire for it not to happen - football tribalism for once was put on the back burner so that it could be stopped

Now it’s clear that it’s back to normal and the tribalism is back with demands for punishments - rival clubs fan wanting to see the clubs punished.

Nothing has changed in football And nothing will change - it’s a money business and they all want a slice of the pie
		
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Yep. The likes of West Ham and Everton will be pushing for points deductions - purely so they can nick the top four positions and make more money for themselves in the Champion's League. No other reason.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And your posting from a purely from a spurned club level -

No one is shifting blame and every single fan of the clubs who were involved were very critical of it all , didn’t want it to happen and were United with all other fans in their desire for it not to happen - football tribalism for once was put on the back burner so that it could be stopped

Now it’s clear that it’s back to normal and the tribalism is back with demands for punishments - rival clubs fan wanting to see the clubs punished.

Nothing has changed in football And nothing will change - it’s a money business and they all want a slice of the pie
		
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Well done on not answering my post!

Did you call anyone out as “spurned” prior to last night? No you didn’t.

You’re just disappointed that FSG that you have praised and supported since day 1 have let the Club, Players, Proper Fans, down, you’ll keep making excuses for them.

Now, what was the term smiffy used to describe you?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			The point is I would take their sanctimonious statement with a pinch of salt if they weren't even asked. I highly doubt any PL chairman would have declined knowing the top teams were all in for it, as all you do is risk getting left further behind.
		
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Or you see beyond the money and own a Club with values.

Explain why PSG or Bayern turned them down?


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or you see beyond the money and own a Club with values.

Explain why PSG or Bayern turned them down?
		
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It was commonly published yesterday, but PSG's Qatari owners didn't want any controversy ahead of the Qatar World Cup, while Bayern is largely fan-owned, so obviously as we know most fans didn't want the ESL.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Yep. The likes of West Ham and Everton will be pushing for points deductions - purely so they can nick the top four positions and make more money for themselves in the Champion's League. No other reason.
		
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You’re only sorry because you’ve been caught and now with one of your “Sly 6” buddies you’re making things up.

What’s the point of Everton getting a CL spot, we can’t get past the qualifying stages.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			It was commonly published yesterday, but PSG's Qatari owners didn't want any controversy ahead of the Qatar World Cup, while Bayern is largely fan-owned, so obviously as we know most fans didn't want the ESL.
		
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PSG story is rumour isn’t it and your billionaire doesn’t care what the fans think.
No morals.


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re only sorry because you’ve been caught and now with one of your “Sly 6” buddies you’re making things up.

What’s the point of Everton getting a CL spot, we can’t get past the qualifying stages.
		
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I'm not sorry at all? I hated the idea of ESL, it would have been the final nail in the coffin of football for me. I'm just saying the holier than thou attitude from other club's fans is rubbish. Chairmen are like politicians - whichever one you support they're all slimebags at the end of the day. If they push for punishments it will be to benefit themselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I'm not sorry at all? I hated the idea of ESL, it would have been the final nail in the coffin of football for me. I'm just saying the holier than thou attitude from other club's fans is rubbish. Chairmen are like politicians - whichever one you support they're all slimebags at the end of the day. If they push for punishments it will be to benefit themselves.
		
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Claiming that about other Clubs fans is strange that’s like me saying you saying “it would of been the final nail” is a lie.

You’re seeing conspiracy theories with everyone else, tarring everyone with same brush.

How would a fine (if they’ve broken any rules) given to Charity or the EFL or grassroots football benefit any other PL Club.

Some idiots fans have called for points or bans, but you’ve put it in to the Clubs! Massive leap there!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done on not answering my post!

Did you call anyone out as “spurned” prior to last night? No you didn’t.

You’re just disappointed that FSG that you have praised and supported since day 1 have let the Club, Players, Proper Fans, down, you’ll keep making excuses for them.

Now, what was the term smiffy used to describe you?
		
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And once again you start making it personal 

I’m not sure what questions you believe should be answered 

The situation is nice a simple - big clubs looked to grab more money and more power , not one single fan or any club supported them and wanted it to be stopped - football tribalism was forgotten and everyone was joined together in their desire to get it stopped 

It was stopped , fans of the clubs involved were very critical of the owners and disgusted by them and feel let down by them - not one excuse has been made for them ,  no one has let them off the hook and excused them for their actions , the fans of those clubs will ensure their owners know how they feel for a long time now 

But now the reaction was it’s stopped from other fans is back to good old tribalism and finding ways to punish those rival clubs , they want to see the clubs suffer even more and if someone was honest with themselves it’s purely because of the rivalry 

But don’t kid yourself that any club if it was actually offered and on the table they would jumping at it - because that’s the state of football at that level now , you can cover your eyes if you want , clubs are all about getting money in , that’s why new stadiums are built that’s why clubs are desperate to stay in the Premier league or get to the CL - because of the pot of gold it produces for the owners.


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Claiming that about other Clubs fans is strange that’s like me saying you saying “it would of been the final nail” is a lie.

You’re seeing conspiracy theories with everyone else, tarring everyone with same brush.

How would a fine (if they’ve broken any rules) given to Charity or the EFL or grassroots football benefit any other PL Club.

Some idiots fans have called for points or bans, but you’ve put it in to the Clubs! Massive leap there!
		
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It's not even similar, you're appropriating the wishes of your club's chairman, whereas I was articulating my own feelings. How can that be the same? 

Gordon Strachan said it best - there are no morals in football, and have not been for a long long time. I suspect they will push for points deductions over fines, but let's wait and see.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And once again you start making it personal

I’m not sure what questions you believe should be answered

The situation is nice a simple - big clubs looked to grab more money and more power , not one single fan or any club supported them and wanted it to be stopped - football tribalism was forgotten and everyone was joined together in their desire to get it stopped

It was stopped , fans of the clubs involved were very critical of the owners and disgusted by them and feel let down by them - not one excuse has been made for them ,  no one has let them off the hook and excused them for their actions , the fans of those clubs will ensure their owners know how they feel for a long time now

But now the reaction was it’s stopped from other fans is back to good old tribalism and finding ways to punish those rival clubs , they want to see the clubs suffer even more and if someone was honest with themselves it’s purely because of the rivalry

But don’t kid yourself that any club if it was actually offered and on the table they would jumping at it - because that’s the state of football at that level now , you can cover your eyes if you want , clubs are all about getting money in , that’s why new stadiums are built that’s why clubs are desperate to stay in the Premier league or get to the CL - because of the pot of gold it produces for the owners.
		
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You started with the spurned and triablism comments.

You made no reference to my fine suggestion which refutes your claim of punishments that benefit the other 14.

Still you are judging every other Club, when the defence has been it’s not the Club but the Chairmen, by the standards of the “Sly 6” you can’t prove that and is your own insecurities to excuse and some how make the ESL idea not too bad.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			It's not even similar, you're appropriating the wishes of your club's chairman, whereas I was articulating my own feelings. How can that be the same? 

Gordon Strachan said it best - there are no morals in football, and have not been for a long long time. I suspect they will push for points deductions over fines, but let's wait and see.
		
Click to expand...

And I wasn’t appropriating the wishes of our Chairman to you, this is what I was comparing it to, ie, your exact quote “I'm just saying the holier than thou attitude from other club's fans is rubbish” 

Fan to Fan comparison!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 21, 2021)

I'm hoping Saints now get invited to join the ESL to replace the other English clubs, we need the money 😂😂


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			And I wasn’t appropriating the wishes of our Chairman to you, this is what I was comparing it to, ie, your exact quote “I'm just saying the holier than thou attitude from other club's fans is rubbish”

Fan to Fan comparison!
		
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The difference is I was judging my chairman's actions, not mere words.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You started with the spurned and triablism comments.

*You made no reference to my fine suggestion which refutes your claim of punishments that benefit the other 14.*


Still you are judging every other Club, when the defence has been it’s not the Club but the Chairmen, by the standards of the “Sly 6” you can’t prove that and is your own insecurities to excuse and some how make the ESL idea not too bad.
		
Click to expand...

When people post on here it’s not automatically in response to something you have said

Have you even considered that the response about punishments might well be in response to this



pauljames87 said:



			Don't let the owners forget this ever

They should be ashamed of themsleves

10 point deduction for each of the teams Involved

Ban from Europe for next season

Any prize money from the premier League this season taken off them and equally divided between the rest of the league

Should stop anyone thinking of doing anything like this again.
		
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Does that level of punishments not benefit the other clubs then ?

And yes it was the chairman/owners of the clubs made the choice

And yes I will judge each chairman the same because history has shown they all have the same self centred desires within the sport


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm hoping Saints now get invited to join the ESL to replace the other English clubs, we need the money 😂😂
		
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Rename it the European Mediocre League!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Rename it the European Mediocre League!
		
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Spurs will get invited back into that 👍


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Spurs will get invited back into that 👍
		
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Fingers crossed we're good enough.


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## USER1999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Football is big business.

The weird bit is that no one really makes any money out of it.

Take Arsenal, because that is a club I know more about. 

It is worth around 2 bn. (Apparently, if the Kroenkes were to sell). 

Every year it makes money from the fans, the broadcasting, the premiership, European footy, etc. May be some player sales (we are not good at this).

This money is then spent on inflated new deals, player wages, and transfers (plus running costs for the business, etc).

Before it got de-listed from the London exchange and re-listed in Denver, all the Kroenkes made was a 5m consultancy fee. The fans were livid they were taking this money out of the club. Now it is in Denver, who knows what they do, but bear with me on this.

The Kroenkes are business men. For a 2bn investment, they are only getting a 5m return? That is chump change. The only way they can make money, would be a new deal like the ESL, or heavily revised TV deals, negotiated by the club, not by the Prem. If there was enough of an increase, they could sneak more cash out without anyone really noticing.

Or, they could sell the club to the next Billionaire investor, and he would have the same problem.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When people post on here it’s not automatically in response to something you have said

Have you even considered that the response about punishments might well be in response to this



Does that level of punishments not benefit the other clubs then ?

And yes it was the chairman/owners of the clubs made the choice

And yes I will judge each chairman the same because history has shown they all have the same self centred desires within the sport
		
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You’re a waste of time, if somebody responds directly to a post then you are answering that post, If you have a issue with Pauljames’s post, answer him or you either expect me to be a mind reader and if that’s  not the case at least have the decency to quote his post so I know what you’re on about!

As for the judgement of all Chairmen, that says more about you than them.


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## larmen (Apr 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Spurs will get invited back into that 👍
		
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Gives them money to pay off the special one.


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## fundy (Apr 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Football is big business.

The weird bit is that no one really makes any money out of it.

Take Arsenal, because that is a club I know more about.

It is worth around 2 bn. (Apparently, if the Kroenkes were to sell).

Every year it makes money from the fans, the broadcasting, the premiership, European footy, etc. May be some player sales (we are not good at this).

This money is then spent on inflated new deals, player wages, and transfers (plus running costs for the business, etc).

Before it got de-listed from the London exchange and re-listed in Denver, all the Kroenkes made was a 5m consultancy fee. The fans were livid they were taking this money out of the club. Now it is in Denver, who knows what they do, but bear with me on this.

The Kroenkes are business men. For a 2bn investment, they are only getting a 5m return? That is chump change. The only way they can make money, would be a new deal like the ESL, or heavily revised TV deals, negotiated by the club, not by the Prem. If there was enough of an increase, they could sneak more cash out without anyone really noticing.

Or, they could sell the club to the next Billionaire investor, and he would have the same problem.
		
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Theyve "created" huge value for themselves in what the club is worth if they were to resell it compared to what they paid for it, can cash their chips in anytime they want, hes got a paper profit in the region of £1bn currently


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## Reemul (Apr 21, 2021)

I love the defense of, oh well the rest of you would have done it if you could. Lowest of the low and not unexpected from some fans really.

It's like my youngest kid's run of excuses every time he gets in to trouble but but but..they they they would have...


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## larmen (Apr 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Football is big business.

The weird bit is that no one really makes any money out of it.

Take Arsenal, because that is a club I know more about.

It is worth around 2 bn. (Apparently, if the Kroenkes were to sell).

Every year it makes money from the fans, the broadcasting, the premiership, European footy, etc. May be some player sales (we are not good at this).

This money is then spent on inflated new deals, player wages, and transfers (plus running costs for the business, etc).

Before it got de-listed from the London exchange and re-listed in Denver, all the Kroenkes made was a 5m consultancy fee. The fans were livid they were taking this money out of the club. Now it is in Denver, who knows what they do, but bear with me on this.

The Kroenkes are business men. For a 2bn investment, they are only getting a 5m return? That is chump change. The only way they can make money, would be a new deal like the ESL, or heavily revised TV deals, negotiated by the club, not by the Prem. If there was enough of an increase, they could sneak more cash out without anyone really noticing.

Or, they could sell the club to the next Billionaire investor, and he would have the same problem.
		
Click to expand...

The spiral you describe doesn’t make it sound like a great investment. Maybe as a pet project for a Sheikh or an oligarch. One who doesn’t care how much money one burns to buy a trophy or two.

As someone mentioned before, FFP is weak.


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## Billysboots (Apr 21, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			This really.

I understand how any of the teams, if invited, would accept the "opportunity". If you are offered the chance to be part of it and get that sort of income guaranteed, in today's world of football, it would be financial suicide to reject the offer. I think this was all about creating a European version of Major League Soccer, which is just not how we play. The whole point of the league system is that there is always something to play for, winning has rewards, and losing has consequences. If that is taken away, whilst still guaranteeing money far greater than you would receive in the current setup it destroys the whole fabric of competition. I think the whole thing was dreamed up by the owners, *I would be surprised if any of the players or managers had any say in it at all, let alone agreed to it.* Punishing the teams by docking points or bans, you are effectively punishing the players, and fans, who had no say. Somehow, the owners need punishing in a way that doesn't effect the players, managers and fans. Not sure how that can be done, perhaps there is a way they can be ejected from their positions as owners?
		
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It’s reported that Harry Maguire confronted Ed Woodward and asked why the players and staff had been allowed to prepare and take the pitch for the Burnley game on Sunday knowing nothing of the ESL proposals, despite the news breaking during that game.

I remain absolutely staggered that club owners have signed up to this deal and not had the nous to make any effort whatsoever to establish if their managers want to manage in the ESL and, more importantly, whether their players want to play in it. Marcus Rashford’s comments yesterday were pretty clear - if United had joined a Super League they would be doing so without him. A player who is one of the club’s prize assets. How many more like him would there be amongst the so-called “Big Six”? And Ed Woodward and co run these clubs without, it seems, any understanding at all of the thoughts of the very people who put bums on seats in the first place.

It’s breathtakingly arrogant, inept mismanagement. I see the clubs involved have suggested they have bowed to the wishes of the fans. I’m less than convinced. I think the reality is they realised, very quickly, that they presided over players who had no wish to be involved. No players, no Super League. It’s that simple.


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

It was utterly cowardly to announce it on a Sunday night, during a pandemic with no fans in the stadium and have the website ready to roll. Any owners who signed upto this shoud be banned from football for life and declared not fit for purpose. Ban all these clubs from the CL for 3 years and watch the value plummet and sponsors cancel. Force these owners out via the only language they understand - money.

The football authorites and the goverment need to review ownership of every club and CPO's placed on those behind this and any other horrendously run clubs. Sky aren't innocent in the way football has gone either, clubs down the football ladder should get more and the players less. The wages of agents and players are driving a lot of this too. Haaland being hawked around for 1m a week in wages is obscene and his agent set to make £50m from the deal this summer. That's almost double the total Premier League bail out to the entire football league.


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## stefanovic (Apr 21, 2021)

Don't understand why the ESL was called greedy with clubs not invited crying foul. They would have been in there like a shot rather than scoring an own goal.
It's only a matter of time before a rethink.
Coming soon:
Man U v Barcelona KO 0100 GMT in Los Angeles.
Chelsea v Juventus KO 0300 GMT in Beijing.

As for objections from the EPL - they were the original greed league.


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## USER1999 (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			It was utterly cowardly to announce it on a Sunday night, during a pandemic with no fans in the stadium and have the website ready to roll. Any owners who signed upto this shoud be banned from football for life and declared not fit for purpose. Ban all these clubs from the CL for 3 years and watch the value plummet and sponsors cancel. Force these owners out via the only language they understand - money.

The football authorites and the goverment need to review ownership of every club and CPO's placed on those behind this and any other horrendously run clubs. Sky aren't innocent in the way football has gone either, clubs down the football ladder should get more and the players less. The wages of agents and players are driving a lot of this too. Haaland being hawked around for 1m a week in wages is obscene and his agent set to make £50m from the deal this summer. That's almost double the total Premier League bail out to the entire football league.
		
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So a CPO is served on Arsenal, who is goinv to buy it?
It's worth 2bn. Who has that? Another unsuitable person.
Also, Kroenke trousers 1bn profit (see Fundy above, and he is right). Some punishment.


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## Billysboots (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



*It was utterly cowardly to announce it on a Sunday night, during a pandemic with no fans in the stadium and have the website ready to roll.* Any owners who signed upto this shoud be banned from football for life and declared not fit for purpose. Ban all these clubs from the CL for 3 years and watch the value plummet and sponsors cancel. Force these owners out via the only language they understand - money.

The football authorites and the goverment need to review ownership of every club and CPO's placed on those behind this and any other horrendously run clubs. Sky aren't innocent in the way football has gone either, clubs down the football ladder should get more and the players less. The wages of agents and players are driving a lot of this too. Haaland being hawked around for 1m a week in wages is obscene and his agent set to make £50m from the deal this summer. That's almost double the total Premier League bail out to the entire football league.
		
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I suspect the announcement was made at that time to capture the markets in the US and Asia. The European Super League was never intended for the European market.


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			So a CPO is served on Arsenal, who is goinv to buy it?
It's worth 2bn. Who has that? Another unsuitable person.
Also, Kroenke trousers 1bn profit (see Fundy above, and he is right). Some punishment.
		
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It's a good question and a very complex issue with no perfect answer. You would ideally introduce a 51 percent fan ownership ratio at the same time. A football trust set up by the government to take control of every club, with future profits to repay it? You'd then allow outside investment for the 49% with strict guildelines on who can buy. 

Unfortunately though the Glazers, FSG and Kroenke are going to walk away with billions in profit whatever. The mistake was made when clubs floated and the FA allowed the owners to pass the fit and proper test. In business terms these owners have made the deal of the century. Let's hope they decide now is the time to take their profits and go.


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I suspect the announcement was made at that time to capture the markets in the US and Asia. The European Super League was never intended for the European market.
		
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True. Made in America for the Chinese with European clubs the toys.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 21, 2021)

Looking at faceache plenty of Liverpool supporters accepting the apology of the owner, especially if he dips into his sky rocket and buys them Mbappe or similar. The fickleness of football fans eh?🙄


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Looking at faceache plenty of Liverpool supporters accepting the apology of the owner, especially if he dips into his sky rocket and buys them Mbappe or similar. The fickleness of football fans eh?🙄
		
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Welcome to modern football 

The same fans demanding money spent are the same ones up in arms 

It’s the state of the game now and it’s gradually getting worse each year - the reactions around transfer Windows are embarrassing at times , each fan demanding their club buys x y and z and then complaining how the owners get the money to buy x y and z

There are a lot of issues within the sport and this super league was just the tip


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## fundy (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			It's a good question and a very complex issue with no perfect answer. You would ideally introduce a 51 percent fan ownership ratio at the same time. A football trust set up by the government to take control of every club, with future profits to repay it? You'd then allow outside investment for the 49% with strict guildelines on who can buy.

Unfortunately though the Glazers, FSG and Kroenke are going to walk away with billions in profit whatever. The mistake was made when clubs floated and the FA allowed the owners to pass the fit and proper test. In business terms these owners have made the deal of the century. Let's hope they decide now is the time to take their profits and go.
		
Click to expand...


I keep hearing the 51% model as the way to go, especially this week. Brought in 22 years ago in Germany and Bayern Munich will have soon won 17 of the 22 league titles since including the last 9, along with several established clubs having gone to the wall

Is it really that wonderful if its creating one dominant force whose domination seems to increase year on year and other clubs effectively being feeder clubs to it as it has the ability to create more revenue becomes self fulfilling and make it harder and harder for other clubs to challenge it


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## road2ruin (Apr 21, 2021)

fundy said:



			I keep hearing the 51% model as the way to go, especially this week.
		
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I was listening to the QPR chairman this morning and he made the point is that when fans go on about the 51% model it is with a complete lack of understanding when it comes to clubs finances. He was saying that once the club have used gate money to cover wages and other costs there is the deficit that has to be made up. He asked where the fans thought this money was going to be coming from as it's usually the owners providing it. I apprecaite that people will argue that it might make the game most sustainable and possibly it will in the very long term but in the short term you cannot just put this scheme in place without clubs folding all over the shop.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 21, 2021)

This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...


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## fundy (Apr 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...
		
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Great post apart from the lie in the first line Paul


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...
		
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Being honest even in the Prem we aren’t safe from the same level of bullying from certain clubs abroad 

I think words like respect and humility went out the window in football a long time ago 😣


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

fundy said:



			I keep hearing the 51% model as the way to go, especially this week. Brought in 22 years ago in Germany and Bayern Munich will have soon won 17 of the 22 league titles since including the last 9, along with several established clubs having gone to the wall

Is it really that wonderful if its creating one dominant force whose domination seems to increase year on year and other clubs effectively being feeder clubs to it as it has the ability to create more revenue becomes self fulfilling and make it harder and harder for other clubs to challenge it
		
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It's not perfect but nothing ever will be. It would be a lot better than the current situation for sure.

Serie A doesn't have the 51% model and Juve have won 7/8 of the last titles in a row. Dortmund have also made the mistake of selling their best players to Bayern over the years which has contributed to Bayern's domination more than anything.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Being honest even in the Prem we aren’t safe from the same level of bullying from certain clubs abroad

I think words like respect and humility went out the window in football a long time ago 😣
		
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I guess Southampton should count themselves lucky then if they’re not alone.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...
		
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With the amount of money in the game now unfortunately this won’t change.
One thing I would say although you would know much better than me being a Southampton supporter is it has helped you stay in the p/l a lot longer than you would have if they had never bought your big players.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

If the German clubs and PSG declined than that puts us in the top 12. I was going to look for West Ham in the list but I got bored of scrolling.


Every single one of them would have. Ask a chairman "we're going to set up this new venture which is basically printing money for all of us, would you like to be a part of it, or do you want to miss out and pick up the scraps with everyone else?" and every single one of them would have said 'where do we sign?'.
		
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Yet apart from one final what has come of that money?

You have the best striker in the league .. possibly the world 

Money off the pitch hasnt brought the success it should so big 6? Really.

Leicester have won the league recently 

Just pure greed from the owners without success to try and get a piece of the pie 

All the spurs fans I know hope this is the final nail in Levy's coffin as they can't stand him

Plus a points deduction to secure champs league? There is a reasonable chance we could get it anyways ...

I wonder how many of the bottom 14 clubs are going to suddenly get a lift playing against the elite .. worked for Brighton last night


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## Rlburnside (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			It's a good question and a very complex issue with no perfect answer. You would ideally introduce a 51 percent fan ownership ratio at the same time. A football trust set up by the government to take control of every club, with future profits to repay it? You'd then allow outside investment for the 49% with strict guildelines on who can buy.

Unfortunately though the Glazers, FSG and Kroenke are going to walk away with billions in profit whatever. The mistake was made when clubs floated and the FA allowed the owners to pass the fit and proper test. In business terms these owners have made the deal of the century. Let's hope they decide now is the time to take their profits and go.
		
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I agree once the billionaires were allowed to buy clubs the slippery slope started, but fans can be fickle and success is accepted no matter what. 

When Chelsea were winning trophy’s not much thought was given to where the owner made his money, Manchester City’s owners come from a country that has appalling civil rights a country where domestic violence is legal yet fans still flock to support these teams. 

I have sympathy for Liverpool fans once their club was taken over by the Americans their club was never going to be the same again. 

I recently watched the 3 Kings about Busby, Shankly and Stein and seen how clubs were born out of fans that are the bedrock of these clubs,these foreign owners have little interest in fans of the clubs they own.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 21, 2021)

If you want to look at the root cause of the issue, try Bosman & agents.  There are players out there clearing more in a week than coppers, nurses & firemen clear in a decade and that won't be covered by gate money however big the stadium is.  Unfortunately that genie is out of the bottle & for all the talk of salary caps it's never going back in unless the entire world of football agrees to it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you want to look at the root cause of the issue, try Bosman & agents.  There are players out there clearing more in a week than coppers, nurses & firemen clear in a decade and that won't be covered by gate money however big the stadium is.  Unfortunately that genie is out of the bottle & for all the talk of salary caps it's never going back in unless the entire world of football agrees to it.
		
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Lord sugar posted this yesterday, a snippet from his autobiography. When he was chairman of spurs


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet apart from one final what has come of that money?

You have the best striker in the league .. possibly the world

Money off the pitch hasnt brought the success it should so big 6? Really.

Leicester have won the league recently

Just pure greed from the owners without success to try and get a piece of the pie

All the spurs fans I know hope this is the final nail in Levy's coffin as they can't stand him

Plus a points deduction to secure champs league? There is a reasonable chance we could get it anyways ...

I wonder how many of the bottom 14 clubs are going to suddenly get a lift playing against the elite .. worked for Brighton last night
		
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I don't hate Levy. I don't think we'd be where we are without him. The fans that hate him are the ones we've discussed earlier who just wanted him to throw money around left right and centre. 

In terms of league performance, I assume this Euro League wasn't just spitballed overnight - in 18/19 the "Big 6" were in fact the top six in the league, and the following season it was only Arsenal who dropped out.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I don't hate Levy. I don't think we'd be where we are without him. The fans that hate him are the ones we've discussed earlier who just wanted him to throw money around left right and centre. 

In terms of league performance, I assume this Euro League wasn't just spitballed overnight - in 18/19 the "Big 6" were in fact the top six in the league, and the following season it was only Arsenal who dropped out.
		
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Thing is levy isn't the money, hes just the face of it ..

He has a share but Joe Lewis is the guy 

Spurs used to do great buisness with signing so many championship and young players like Townsend, routledge .. bale mark 1.. just you know taking a punt that players would work but when they didn't work they were sold still for a massive profit ..

It's recently where no players were bought for 500 days and the team went backwards due to lack of investment that really tells


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## Orikoru (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Thing is levy isn't the money, hes just the face of it ..

He has a share but Joe Lewis is the guy

Spurs used to do great buisness with signing so many championship and young players like Townsend, routledge .. bale mark 1.. just you know taking a punt that players would work but when they didn't work they were sold still for a massive profit ..

It's recently where no players were bought for 500 days and the team went backwards due to lack of investment that really tells
		
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I don't think he's done a lot wrong personally. Perhaps Poch can feel a bit hard done by that he wasn't given the bigger signings that José was, that's the only thing I would say.


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## RichA (Apr 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...
		
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Totally agree with you, but most of our "smaller" clubs only survive by nurturing young players in the hope of selling them on to a Prem at some point in the future. League One and Two teams will always struggle to survive on gate receipts and advertising revenue.


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

To be honest I think Levy is the worst of the bunch, along with Woodward.

The Americans have no idea of the culture of football in the UK, these guys do and they still went ahead with it. These are money men, nothing else. Woodward is gone and Levy should be going the same way. 

Levy actually had a world class manager, playing brilliant football and failed to back him when Spurs were so close. Poch had Spurs outperforming their budget by miles. Even the decision to sack Mourinho is bizarre. Since he took over he has averaged 4th place in points per game and got to a cup final. That's with both key players being injury prone and losing so many points from winning positions due to the weak centre backs. Levy is toxic and the stadium papers over the cracks and what Spurs under him are all about.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Thing is levy isn't the money, hes just the face of it ..

He has a share but Joe Lewis is the guy

Spurs used to do great buisness with signing so many championship and young players like Townsend, routledge .. bale mark 1.. just you know taking a punt that players would work but when they didn't work they were sold still for a massive profit ..

It's recently where no players were bought for 500 days and the team went backwards due to lack of investment that really tells
		
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Levy has nearly 30% stake in ENIC the company that has the major shareholding in Spurs, it’s disgraceful that he proposed joining the ESL. but at least he is a lifelong Spurs fan and has overseen the new stadium.

Joe Lewis to my knowledge has no input of the day to day running of the club but he has interests in America including golf courses, I would be surprised if Levy didn’t consult with him on joining the thankfully abandoned ESL


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

And so here the great distraction is done 

New champions League format 

The new Champions League means every club will be guaranteed 10 games, increasing revenue for each team involved.

As for the additional slots, three different criteria will determine the four extra teams.

One slot will be awarded to a club from the country placed fifth in UEFA's coefficient rankings.

Another slot will be awarded to the domestic league champion with the highest club coefficient among the other domestic champions who have not automatically qualified.

The final two slots will be awarded to the two clubs with the highest club coefficients who have not qualified automatically.


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## road2ruin (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			To be honest I think Levy is the worst of the bunch, along with Woodward.

The Americans have no idea of the culture of football in the UK, these guys do and they still went ahead with it. These are money men, nothing else. Woodward is gone and Levy should be going the same way.
		
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As a United fan it saddens me to watch what has happened to us since the Glazers took over the ESL is pretty much a result of people like them being allowed to take over our clubs, it was only ever going to end one way when you allow people who are only interested in money to own football clubs. Whilst the ESL was their baby and they should shoulder the responsibility the PL and FA are also complicit by allowing it to happen in the first place, they were happy to accept the money that they brought but don't like the consequences. 

In terms of Woodward he's a glorified accountant and if you take that into account his reign as been an unqualified success, the commercial side of the business has never been stronger even though the results of the pitch have been pretty average. He's exactly the sort of man that most companies would like in charge, he makes money and that's what the owners hold above anything else.


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			As a United fan it saddens me to watch what has happened to us since the Glazers took over the ESL is pretty much a result of people like them being allowed to take over our clubs, it was only ever going to end one way when you allow people who are only interested in money to own football clubs. Whilst the ESL was their baby and they should shoulder the responsibility the PL and FA are also complicit by allowing it to happen in the first place, they were happy to accept the money that they brought but don't like the consequences.

In terms of Woodward he's a glorified accountant and if you take that into account his reign as been an unqualified success, the commercial side of the business has never been stronger even though the results of the pitch have been pretty average. He's exactly the sort of man that most companies would like in charge, he makes money and that's what the owners hold above anything else.
		
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Totally agree in the first part.

Woodward helped the Glazers finance the leveraged buy out, they rewarded him with a job down the line. I think anyone would have got good deals out of Utd over the last 8 years though, his part is overstated. He's been a failure from start to finish. The debt has increased massively, transfers and wage squandered.


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## road2ruin (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			I think anyone would have got good deals out of Utd over the last 8 years though, his part is overstated. He's been a failure from start to finish. The debt has increased massively, transfers and wage squandered.
		
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On the transfers and wages front we have spent poorly. We have overpaid on some and missed out on others as we felt that they weren't worth it, it's been a mess although Matt Judge has to take some responsiblity for that as he's the man in charge of the actual negotiations. Woodward is there looking at the bottom line and it's only the money that interests him in a deal. I still feel sorry for Fellaini, we could have bought him for £22m or so but dicked about and his buyout clause period passed and we panicked on transfer deadline day and we paid £28m for him. It was never his fault that we overpaid but he was made a scapegoat of that.


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## sunshine (Apr 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			It’s reported that Harry Maguire confronted Ed Woodward and asked why the players and staff had been allowed to prepare and take the pitch for the Burnley game on Sunday knowing nothing of the ESL proposals, despite the news breaking during that game.

I remain absolutely staggered that club owners have signed up to this deal and not had the nous to make any effort whatsoever to establish if their managers want to manage in the ESL and, more importantly, whether their players want to play in it. Marcus Rashford’s comments yesterday were pretty clear - if United had joined a Super League they would be doing so without him. A player who is one of the club’s prize assets. How many more like him would there be amongst the so-called “Big Six”? And Ed Woodward and co run these clubs without, it seems, any understanding at all of the thoughts of the very people who put bums on seats in the first place.

It’s breathtakingly arrogant, inept mismanagement. I see the clubs involved have suggested they have bowed to the wishes of the fans. I’m less than convinced. I think the reality is they realised, very quickly, that they presided over players who had no wish to be involved. No players, no Super League. It’s that simple.
		
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Outside of football, I wouldn't expect the owners of a business to discuss an acquisition or sale with their staff. Discussions remain with the Board. After a deal has been signed there might be an employee consultation process if the business is changing.

Player power in football is staggering. On the one hand I admire a player for standing up for his principles, although not sure about Harry Maguire's principles when he's on holiday. I expect a business to consult with its staff... but it's not up to the players to decide how the business is run.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure you quite understand how the PL works, it’s not down to just 6 Clubs to tell the other 14 how things will work in the future, the ESL wasn’t just a perfectly alternative marketplace, it depended on the PL doing what they were told by the 6.

Weird how fans from the other “Big 6” Clubs wanted City banned/punished etc when found guilty of breakin FFP rules, but now they’ve been caught out we are getting the “it’s not fair on the fans” to punish them, surely the City fans had nothing to do with breaking the FFP rules?

First thing that needs to be established is if any actual rules have been broken, until we know that, any talk of punishments should be shelved.

I believe there needs to be some accountability, what or how? I don’t know, otherwise this hasn’t been stopped, just delayed.
		
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I understand perfectly how the Premier League works, thanks.
Any business is legally entitled to form associations with any other. There are in fact laws against restricting this. The 6 weren’t telling the other PL clubs how the PL would work. They were forming another league and taking a risk they would be allowed to remain competing in the PL alongside it.
Whether the 6 are punished is, in my view, nothing to do with the fans. Lots of fans turn up in foul weather to watch their lower league clubs compete with no chance of any glory whatsoever. Fans of the 6 will do the same. Punishments would be imposed simply to deter clubs from doing the same again. How’s that for a closed shop? Is that legal?
People were annoyed at City breaking the FFP rules because they actually broke actual rules. 
As you say, people are clamouring to punish the 6 when they don’t even know if any rules have been broken. At the same time they are conveniently forgetting that without the 6 the PL is much diminished, less attractive and... oh yes, much less of a cash cow for their own clubs.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			I understand perfectly how the Premier League works, thanks.
Any business is legally entitled to form associations with any other. There are in fact laws against restricting this. The 6 weren’t telling the other PL clubs how the PL would work. They were forming another league and taking a risk they would be allowed to remain competing in the PL alongside it.
Whether the 6 are punished is, in my view, nothing to do with the fans. Lots of fans turn up in foul weather to watch their lower league clubs compete with no chance of any glory whatsoever. Fans of the 6 will do the same. Punishments would be imposed simply to deter clubs from doing the same again. How’s that for a closed shop? Is that legal?
People were annoyed at City breaking the FFP rules because they actually broke actual rules. 
As you say, people are clamouring to punish the 6 when they don’t even know if any rules have been broken. At the same time they are conveniently forgetting that without the 6 the PL is much diminished, less attractive and... oh yes, much less of a cash cow for their own clubs.
		
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But there is a rule that members can't compete in another league that's not sanctioned by the fa or uefa etc


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			On the transfers and wages front we have spent poorly. We have overpaid on some and missed out on others as we felt that they weren't worth it, it's been a mess although Matt Judge has to take some responsiblity for that as he's the man in charge of the actual negotiations. Woodward is there looking at the bottom line and it's only the money that interests him in a deal. I still feel sorry for Fellaini, we could have bought him for £22m or so but dicked about and his buyout clause period passed and we panicked on transfer deadline day and we paid £28m for him. It was never his fault that we overpaid but he was made a scapegoat of that.
		
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Fellaini actually provided value for money over his time at the club. Never a Utd player but always gave it his best, scored goals and gave the weak midfield some spite. That moves sums up it all though. Moyes was a dire appointment but he wanted Fabregas and got Fellaini instead. Every signing since has been reactive rather than proactive. So much deadwood at Utd you could build a forest. I think unless the Glazers are forced out his replacement will be another investment banker.

Judge and the new restructure is a farce. Jobs for the boys and yes men. It goes right to upto Ole, he's another yes man with nothing about himself other than soundbites. Woodward got him as a stooge, fortune has favoured him but he'll be found out next season.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			I understand perfectly how the Premier League works, thanks.
Any business is legally entitled to form associations with any other. There are in fact laws against restricting this. The 6 weren’t telling the other PL clubs how the PL would work. They were forming another league and taking a risk they would be allowed to remain competing in the PL alongside it.
Whether the 6 are punished is, in my view, nothing to do with the fans. Lots of fans turn up in foul weather to watch their lower league clubs compete with no chance of any glory whatsoever. Fans of the 6 will do the same. Punishments would be imposed simply to deter clubs from doing the same again. How’s that for a closed shop? Is that legal?
People were annoyed at City breaking the FFP rules because they actually broke actual rules.
As you say, people are clamouring to punish the 6 when they don’t even know if any rules have been broken. At the same time they are conveniently forgetting that without the 6 the PL is much diminished, less attractive and... oh yes, much less of a cash cow for their own clubs.
		
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The 6 were telling the others how the PL would work, otherwise they’d of announced plans and held discussions with the others. They were saying who would or would not qualify for Europe via PL finish, not UEFA or the PL.

If the PL do nothing, how long until the 6 learn from their mistakes and try again?

There has to be some sort of action if they have broken rules.

As for all this “we need the 6” we don’t, let’s just pretend they disappeared off the face of the earth overnight, Football would continue, yes their maybe some downturn, but it would recover, they are not bigger than the game! Fans of other Clubs wouldn’t lose their passion or love for the game and the glory hunters would move on to the next team.

The game is bigger than the 6, and what people are doing is falling for their sob story. If someone billionaire buys Norwich tomorrow and they become the next Man City are they then the “Big 7”.

No Club or a few Club have the right to decide the future of our game.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But there is a rule that members can't compete in another league that's not sanctioned by the fa or uefa etc
		
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That’s true. And they haven’t.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The 6 were telling the others how the PL would work, otherwise they’d of announced plans and held discussions with the others. They were saying who would or would not qualify for Europe bia PL finish, not UEFA or the PL.

If the PL do nothing, how long until the 6 learn from their mistakes and try again?

There has to be some sort of action if they have broken rules.

As for all this “we need the 6” we don’t, let’s just pretend they disappeared off the face of the earth overnight, Football would continue, yes their maybe some downturn, but it would recover, they are not bigger than the game! Fans of other Clubs wouldn’t lose their passion or love for the game and the glory hunters would move on to the next team.

The game is bigger than the 6, and what people are doing is falling for their sob story. If someone billionaire buys Norwich tomorrow and they become the next Man City are they then the “Big 7”.

No Club or a few Club have the right to decide the future of our game.
		
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They didn’t involve the other PL teams because it was a different league. It wasn’t about how the PL was going to work. If anything it was more about changing the Champions League. The PL itself could have carried on unaltered.
Punishment or not, this will come up again and eventually it will succeed in some form, most likely with full promotion and relegation. It’s a natural progression. If there was no interest the CL would be a failure.

If you (the other clubs) don’t need the 6 then why are you so upset?  The fact is, the 6 aren’t going to disappear off the face of the earth (as much as you would like them to) and that means they remain the big crowd and money pullers and the other teams need them. And don’t make the mistake of thinking all supporters of the 6 are glory hunters because that demonstrates a significant lack of understanding.
And seriously, there is no sob story.
You are calling for punishment when you can’t even say any rule has been broken.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			They didn’t involve the other PL teams because it was a different league. It wasn’t about how the PL was going to work. If anything it was more about changing the Champions League. The PL itself could have carried on unaltered.
Punishment or not, this will come up again and eventually it will succeed in some form, most likely with full promotion and relegation. It’s a natural progression. If there was no interest the CL would be a failure.

If you (the other clubs) don’t need the 6 then why are you so upset?  The fact is, the 6 aren’t going to disappear off the face of the earth (as much as you would like them to) and that means they remain the big crowd and money pullers and the other teams need them. And don’t make the mistake of thinking all supporters of the 6 are glory hunters because that demonstrates a significant lack of understanding.
And seriously, there is no sob story.
You are calling for punishment when you can’t even say any rule has been broken.
		
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I didn’t say all supporters of the 6 are glory hunters, I said the glory hunters would move on to the next Club. The genuine fans are embarrassed by their Clubs behaviour.

Are you really being that naive in saying they weren’t going to change how the PL works? Wolves win the PL, West Ham finish runners up, Arsenal finish 12th and Utd 15th, the Clubs in 12th & 15th qualify for the CL or whatever the 6 were going to call it. UEFA said before the ESL collapsed they’d keep the CL, the ESL were replacing it, but somehow you say the PL would carry on unaltered.

It’s not the ESL’s job to make these decisions and impose these changes, regardless of how valuable they believe they are!

Yes I am calling for a punishment, some sort of action needs to be taken or are you suggesting we simply forget what they tried to do and move on?


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I didn’t say all supporters of the 6 are glory hunters, I said the glory hunters would move on to the next Club. The genuine fans are embarrassed by their Clubs behaviour.

Are you really being that naive in saying they weren’t going to change how the PL works? Wolves win the PL, West Ham finish runners up, Arsenal finish 12th and Utd 15th, the Clubs in 12th & 15th qualify for the CL or whatever the 6 were going to call it. UEFA said before the ESL collapsed they’d keep the CL, the ESL were replacing it, but somehow you say the PL would carry on unaltered.

It’s not the ESL’s job to make these decisions and impose these changes, regardless of how valuable they believe they are!

Yes I am calling for a punishment, some sort of action needs to be taken or are you suggesting we simply forget what they tried to do and move on?
		
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Seriously Paul have you heard yourself? 🤦‍♂️

Look theres going to be no punishment & it will soon be business as usual 👍🏻
Football is full of greed & all the teams are as bad.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I didn’t say all supporters of the 6 are glory hunters, I said the glory hunters would move on to the next Club. The genuine fans are embarrassed by their Clubs behaviour.

Are you really being that naive in saying they weren’t going to change how the PL works? Wolves win the PL, West Ham finish runners up, Arsenal finish 12th and Utd 15th, the Clubs in 12th & 15th qualify for the CL or whatever the 6 were going to call it. UEFA said before the ESL collapsed they’d keep the CL, the ESL were replacing it, but somehow you say the PL would carry on unaltered.

It’s not the ESL’s job to make these decisions and impose these changes, regardless of how valuable they believe they are!

Yes I am calling for a punishment, some sort of action needs to be taken or are you suggesting we simply forget what they tried to do and move on?
		
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The current CL could have carried on as normal, just without the Super League clubs. The PL could have chosen to kick the 6 out altogether. sounds like your perfect scenario. How is that the 6 dictating how the PL works?


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## larmen (Apr 21, 2021)

fundy said:



			I keep hearing the 51% model as the way to go, especially this week. Brought in 22 years ago in Germany and Bayern Munich will have soon won 17 of the 22 league titles since including the last 9, along with several established clubs having gone to the wall

Is it really that wonderful if its creating one dominant force whose domination seems to increase year on year and other clubs effectively being feeder clubs to it as it has the ability to create more revenue becomes self fulfilling and make it harder and harder for other clubs to challenge it
		
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It wasn’t restricted down to 49% investors, it was opened up to that. Before that it was all club owned.

And it’s not the fans, it’s the club who owns this. A bit like a private golf  club.
If you are a member at Bayern Munich, for example you play volleyball there, then you get a vote. All those votes select the president, ... . Fans can be members, but passive members do not have votes. Of course, fans can become active members and just don’t turn up to play any sport, paying the full membership fee.
Members usually also get discounts in the club store or possibly on tickets.

There is no divide as you don’t have shares, you don’t own anything. The club owns it, you can vote and play sports.


RB Leipzig is different, but they had to start near the bottom and had to spend their way up. Leverkusen is different for historical reasons. Hoffenheim have Hopp as private investor who spend his SAP money on the club without taking more ownership. But he is from that little town and a fan all his life, not flown in from oversees because a club was available on the market.

Hamburg and Dortmund did sell shares up to 49%, not sure how they got out of it. I don’t think there are shareholders anymore.
Hamburg had an investor for a long time, but he had too much influence, the fans didn’t like it, the guy stopped spending, or cut it a lot, and Hamburg went down. Dortmund had financial troubles for a long time but got through it.

Bayern wins everything because players want to go there. Lewandowski was successful in Dortmund, Bayern just said we want you when your contract runs out and nothing Dortmund could do. They got into that position when they were ‘gifted’ a stadium after the 1972 Olympics. And they got the big sponsors for no reason. Telekom paid them like 20 million DM when they had a monopoly in Germany. The next highest team was getting 6 to 8 millions. It’s not like they needed the advertisement. Bayern opened the gap at the right time and it just grew from there. My team Werder was 2nd at the time and we missed the boat.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			The current CL could have carried on as normal, just without the Super League clubs. The PL could have chosen to kick the 6 out altogether. sounds like your perfect scenario. How is that the 6 dictating how the PL works?
		
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The ESL plan was to bin the CL and replace it with their Comp! And remain in the PL.

The ESL plan wasn’t up for discussion!


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## theoneandonly (Apr 21, 2021)

Give it a week or two and it will have all blown over and it's back to business as usual. All this talk of punsishment and kicking them out of the Prem is nonsense.
Sky dont pay billions to show Everton v West Ham as their biggest game.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The ESL plan was to bin the CL and replace it with their Comp! And remain in the PL.

The ESL plan wasn’t up for discussion!
		
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As you say, it wasn’t for the 6 to dictate what happened to the CL. They just said they wanted to play in the Super League and not the CL. Nothing to stop the CL carrying on without the SL clubs. I am not sure why you would have a problem with that aspect of it. Unless deep down you know that the CL would be diminished, less attractive and less of an achievement without the SL clubs, just like the PL?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			As you say, it wasn’t for the 6 to dictate what happened to the CL. They just said they wanted to play in the Super League and not the CL. Nothing to stop the CL carrying on without the SL clubs. I am not sure why you would have a problem with that aspect of it. Unless deep down you know that the CL would be diminished, less attractive and less of an achievement without the SL clubs, just like the PL?
		
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You stated the PL would carry on unaltered.

The ESL plan was to replace the CL not run along side it!

I gave you the example using Wolves as Champions, do you believe that scenario would of been fair?

It has nothing to do with the CL being diminished or the PL being less of an attraction or achievement, it’s about 12 Clubs around Europe dictating the future of the sport, working behind closed doors to protect themselves and it becoming a closed shop.

It’s OUR game not theirs.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You stated the PL would carry on unaltered.

The ESL plan was to replace the CL not run along side it!

I gave you the example using Wolves as Champions, do you believe that scenario would of been fair?

It has nothing to do with the CL being diminished or the PL being less of an attraction or achievement, it’s about 12 Clubs around Europe dictating the future of the sport, working behind closed doors to protect themselves and it becoming a closed shop.

It’s OUR game not theirs.
		
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There was no reason why the CL could not have carried on without the ESL clubs. I appreciate that this doesn’t fit your narrative but there you go. In your scenario Wolves would have been entered into the CL. The 6 wouldn’t. All perfectly fair. The ESL made no suggestion on the future of the CL. The only thing they were dictating was the ESL.
And BTW, the game doesn’t belong to anyone and this kind of romanticised nonsense is part of the problem.


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			There was no reason why the CL could not have carried on without the ESL clubs. I appreciate that this doesn’t fit your narrative but there you go. In your scenario Wolves would have been entered into the CL. The 6 wouldn’t. All perfectly fair. The ESL made no suggestion on the future of the CL. The only thing they were dictating was the ESL.
And BTW, the game doesn’t belong to anyone and this kind of romanticised nonsense is part of the problem.
		
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Bang ya head against a wall it might knock some sense in.

The Super League is now Barcelona v Real Madrid over 18 games, where the quarter finals, semi final and final are also Barcelona v Real Madrid  These clubs are financially screwed, genuinely hope Real go under. I've been to both grounds and Real Madrid especially deserve everything coming their way. These are the fans who booed Ronaldo after he'd scored 300 goals for them because he went on a 6 game goal drought. Shitstain on European football and Perez is as big a crook as Blatter.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			There was no reason why the CL could not have carried on without the ESL clubs. I appreciate that this doesn’t fit your narrative but there you go. In your scenario Wolves would have been entered into the CL. The 6 wouldn’t. All perfectly fair. The ESL made no suggestion on the future of the CL. The only thing they were dictating was the ESL.
And BTW, the game doesn’t belong to anyone and this kind of romanticised nonsense is part of the problem.
		
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Are you on a wind up?

The narrative was set by the ESL plan, under that plan they would see the CL being replaced by their League.

It was UEFA who struck back by saying it was down to them if the CL continued.

Think about it!! The ESL matches were to be played midweek, Man City win this years League, how do they play in both the ESL and CL.

As for your last paragraph it sums up those who don’t understand just what the game means to the normal fan.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Bang ya head against a wall it might knock some sense in.

The Super League is now Barcelona v Real Madrid over 18 games, where the quarter finals, semi final and final are also Barcelona v Real Madrid  These clubs are financially screwed, genuinely hope Real go under. I've been to both grounds and Real Madrid especially deserve everything coming their way. These are the fans who booed Ronaldo after he'd scored 300 goals for them because he went on a 6 game goal drought. Shitstain on European football and Perez is as big a crook as Blatter.
		
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Both of those clubs will be fine financially 

Always got the local government and banks  to help them out


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2021)

Have the “big six” actually broken  any rules, I suppose at a push the could be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. As to the “why punish the fans” attitude, as someone who supports a club that suffered under “the rules” even though the rules were broken to save the third oldest club in the UK nobody shouted that it was unfair to the fans. 
aIf rules were broken then punish, if they weren’t , move on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Have the “big six” actually broken  any rules, I suppose at a push the could be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. As to the “why punish the fans” attitude, as someone who supports a club that suffered under “the rules” even though the rules were broken to save the third oldest club in the UK nobody shouted that it was unfair to the fans.
aIf rules were broken then punish, if they weren’t , move on.
		
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Bringing the game into disrepute potentially but I’m not sure what other rules they could have broken - the ESL wasn’t to replace the Prem , it was for those clubs to play instead of playing the CL. UEFA would have still run the CL but without 20 clubs that were in this ESL nonsense. But the Prem would have carried out etc


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Have the “big six” actually broken  any rules, I suppose at a push the could be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. As to the “why punish the fans” attitude, as someone who supports a club that suffered under “the rules” even though the rules were broken to save the third oldest club in the UK nobody shouted that it was unfair to the fans.
aIf rules were broken then punish, if they weren’t , move on.
		
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Said before it needs to be made clear if they’ve broken any rules before any decisions are made, but it does seem repercussions have started.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...ommittees-after-european-super-league-debacle


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you on a wind up?

The narrative was set by the ESL plan, under that plan they would see the CL being replaced by their League.

It was UEFA who struck back by saying it was down to them if the CL continued.

Think about it!! The ESL matches were to be played midweek, Man City win this years League, how do they play in both the ESL and CL.

As for your last paragraph it sums up those who don’t understand just what the game means to the normal fan.
		
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Good grief.
The ESL clubs weren’t going to play in the CL. They wouldn’t be playing in both. Win it this year or not. ESL clubs resigned their places on European associations. As you say, UEFA were going to carry on with it regardless.
I understand perfectly what football means to the average fan. The game though doesn’t belong to any one person or group. It’s a game. You can’t own it.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



*Have the “big six” actually broken  any rules*, I suppose at a push the could be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. As to the “why punish the fans” attitude, as someone who supports a club that suffered under “the rules” even though the rules were broken to save the third oldest club in the UK nobody shouted that it was unfair to the fans.
aIf rules were broken then punish, if they weren’t , move on.
		
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Potentially Premier League rule L9. 

"_Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than_

_L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League_
_L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League_
_L.9.3 – The FA Cup_
_L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield_
_L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or_
_L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member._"

I would assume that by agreeing to join the ESL the clubs have fallen foul of this as they have agreed to "enter" a competition that isn't on the list and hasn't been agreed by the PL. No idea what the sanctions would be if they are found to have breached this rule.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Potentially Premier League rule L9.

"_Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than_

_L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League
L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League
L.9.3 – The FA Cup
L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield
L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or
L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member._"

I would assume that by agreeing to join the ESL the clubs have fallen foul of this as they have agreed to "enter" a competition that isn't on the list and hasn't been agreed by the PL. No idea what the sanctions would be if they are found to have breached this rule.
		
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I may be wrong but didn’t their statements say they had signed letters of intent to join the ESL? If so, intending to break a rule is not the same as breaking one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Good grief.
The ESL clubs weren’t going to play in the CL. They wouldn’t be playing in both. Win it this year or not. ESL clubs resigned their places on European associations. As you say, UEFA were going to carry on with it regardless.
I understand perfectly what football means to the average fan. The game though doesn’t belong to any one person or group. It’s a game. You can’t own it.
		
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If they are part of the FA/PL and enter their competitions they are expected to abide by the rules, they don’t have the authority or right to pick and choose what they play! ie, The winners of the PL are entered into the following seasons CL, the 6 have no right to turn around and say, “no thanks we’ll pick and choose which rules we abide by and which we ignore.

They expected everybody to roll over and be thankful! And it seems you are the only person in the Country defending them!


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			If they are part of the FA/PL and enter their competitions they are expected to abide by the rules, they don’t have the authority or right to pick and choose what they play! ie, The winners of the PL are entered into the following seasons CL, the 6 have no right to turn around and say, “no thanks we’ll pick and choose which rules we abide by and which we ignore.

They expected everybody to roll over and be thankful! And it seems you are the only person in the Country defending them!
		
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Interesting. So when Man United didn’t play in the FA Cup didn’t they pick and choose then?
No-one expected anyone to be thankful. You really need to stop making things up. And I am not defending them. I am simply arguing you can’t punish someone when they haven’t broken any rules or laws.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			I may be wrong but didn’t their statements say they had signed letters of intent to join the ESL? If so, intending to break a rule is not the same as breaking one.
		
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No idea. According to one report I read today the clubs had signed contracts to join the league and they weren't allowed to leave it for the first three years. I guess it will come down to what the paperwork says.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Interesting. So when Man United didn’t play in the FA Cup didn’t they pick and choose then?
No-one expected anyone to be thankful. You really need to stop making things up. And I am not defending them. I am simply arguing you can’t punish someone when they haven’t broken any rules or laws.
		
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They had to get permission to leave for that season 

And tbh the fa should have had the guts to say if you go you can never return


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Interesting. So when Man United didn’t play in the FA Cup didn’t they pick and choose then?
No-one expected anyone to be thankful. You really need to stop making things up. And I am not defending them. I am simply arguing you can’t punish someone when they haven’t broken any rules or laws.
		
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Were have I said they have broken any rules or laws? 

As for United, that was an agreement with the FA, nothing to do with the PL, but good effort, apparently it’s me making things up!


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Were have I said they have broken any rules or laws?

As for United, that was an agreement with the FA, nothing to do with the PL, but good effort, apparently it’s me making things up!
		
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As you well know, you said that by being part of the PL you are expected to take part in the other competitions whether you like it or not. So the Man U FA Cup scenario was legitimate. I’d say good effort, but it really wasn’t.
TBH, I am tired of arguing with you. I hoped after last time it might be different but you’d argue with yourself if you didn’t have this forum to do the job for you. You answered right from the off by telling me I didn’t understand how the Premier League worked. No nuance, no reasonable point, just straight out with an insult.
You are clearly over emotional about something that isn’t even going to happen. So if you don’t mind and even if you do, I am just going to ignore you. Bye.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			As you well know, you said that by being part of the PL you are expected to take part in the other competitions whether you like it or not. So the Man U FA Cup scenario was legitimate. I’d say good effort, but it really wasn’t.
TBH, I am tired of arguing with you. I hoped after last time it might be different but you’d argue with yourself if you didn’t have this forum to do the job for you. You answered right from the off by telling me I didn’t understand how the Premier League worked. No nuance, no reasonable point, just straight out with an insult.
You are clearly over emotional about something that isn’t even going to happen. So if you don’t mind and even if you do, I am just going to ignore you. Bye.
		
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What a cop out, argument or discussion? Personally, as I’ve stated countless times on here if you don’t want a response from me don’t quote my post because I believe it is good manners to respond to those directly speaking to me, no different if we were talking face to face, the only ones I won’t respond to are those I have on ignore. 

I have pointed out fact after fact and you kept changing tac, even now with the points about me saying the facts over rule breaks need to be established and the Man Utd point you fail to accept the fact, despite another poster putting you straight as well.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Without written permission @Sweep they have broken rule L9


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They had to get permission to leave for that season

And tbh the fa should have had the guts to say if you go you can never return
		
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It’s a bit off topic but it’s often overlooked that Man U were asked not to take part, so kicking them out for not playing would have been harsh.


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## Sweep (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 36288


Without written permission @Sweep they have broken rule L9
		
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Quite possibly. Unless they just intended to join / enter by signing a letter of intent but didn’t actually join / enter. We will see.
 I doubt they weren’t aware of L9 so if it had gone ahead they must have been ready for some sanction. It’s certainly hard to believe they thought they would be given everything so they must have thought it was going to be worth it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They had to get permission to leave for that season

And tbh the fa should have had the guts to say if you go you can never return
		
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It was the FA who made the agreement with them not to enter the FA Cup.

I can’t see anyway Utd would of made the agreement and then accepted a punishment off them.


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## Crow (Apr 21, 2021)

I see this thread has run it's course re the ESL and has now descended into the usual footie slagging match as per the Premier League thread.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Quite possibly. Unless they just intended to join / enter by signing a letter of intent but didn’t actually join / enter. We will see.
 I doubt they weren’t aware of L9 so if it had gone ahead they must have been ready for some sanction. It’s certainly hard to believe they thought they would be given everything so they must have thought it was going to be worth it
		
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If they didn't know the rules then I'd be suing the lawyers they been using for 2 years or so with their secret discussions


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Looking at faceache plenty of Liverpool supporters accepting the apology of the owner, especially if he dips into his sky rocket and buys them Mbappe or similar. The fickleness of football fans eh?🙄
		
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Why dont you consider the matchgoers opinions rather than faceless divvies on facebook, twitter, golf forums?


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## SaintHacker (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Why dont you consider the matchgoers opinions rather than faceless divvies on facebook, twitter, golf forums?
		
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Who's saying they cant be both?


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 22, 2021)

The reason Man Utd did not play in the F.A.Cup which I believe was around 1999/2000, was that they were forced to play in the idiotic World Club Championships at the same time as the 3rd round.   England was trying to get to host the World Cup and it was seen as necessary for United to support the event to further their bid.   They offered to play a reserve team but this was declined so the only option was for the FA to allow them not to enter that year.


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## road2ruin (Apr 22, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The reason Man Utd did not play in the F.A.Cup which I believe was around 1999/2000, was that they were forced to play in the idiotic World Club Championships at the same time as the 3rd round.   England was trying to get to host the World Cup and it was seen as necessary for United to support the event to further their bid.   They offered to play a reserve team but this was declined so the only option was for the FA to allow them not to enter that year.
		
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MANCHESTER UNITED yesterday withdrew from next season's FA Cup after accepting an offer from the Football Association that they could not refuse.

The club's chief executive, Martin Edwards, and their manager Alex Ferguson put on a united front with David Davies, the FA's interim executive director, as they tried to justify the unpopular decision.

In the background the recurring theme was of *England's 2006 World Cup bid and the guidance from the Government* which persuaded United to ditch the game's oldest domestic tournament for its newest global prize because of fixture congestion.

United say they were left *with little choice when the FA told them of the possible risks to England's hopes of staging the World Cup if they did not take part in Fifa's new tournament*, the World Club Championship in Brazil next January.

"We had to think of the situation regarding England hosting the World Cup," Ferguson said. "No one wants to see them not get it. I dare not think of the criticism we would have received if we had refused. That was unthinkable - and that's a Scotsman talking."

Edwards echoed those sentiments. "If we had not entered this tournament, England's opportunity to host the 2006 World Cup would have been in jeopardy," he said. "It might even be stronger than that. We've given England an opportunity now. You cannot expect our players to play 70 games. Something had to give. We are disappointed for our supporters. The League couldn't give and neither could the European Cup. For one year the FA Cup has to give."


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

Hopefully @Sweep has got the message by now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2021)

Now you are talking....... a proper Super League.

Talks have begun over an 18-team 'British Super League' - which includes Celtic and Rangers (msn.com)


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## BiMGuy (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Now you are talking....... a proper Super League.

Talks have begun over an 18-team 'British Super League' - which includes Celtic and Rangers (msn.com)

Click to expand...

Celtic and Rangers are more Sunday League than Super League.

If they want to play in England they should start at the bottom like every other team.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 22, 2021)

)



BiMGuy said:



			Celtic and Rangers are more Sunday League than Super League.

If they want to play in England they should start at the bottom like every other team.
		
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They would seriously struggle to get out of the championship. I don't mean that in a nasty way but that league is tough and full of very good teams 

Look how long Leeds took to get back !


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## BiMGuy (Apr 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			so the new champions league format (superleague in all but name)

They would seriously struggle to get out of the championship. I don't mean that in a nasty way but that league is tough and full of very good teams 

Look how long Leeds took to get back !
		
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Exactly. 

I suppose it would be fun watching them get relegated in their first season. After decades of winning everything, can you imagine how their fans would cope with being beaten every week.


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## Whereditgo (Apr 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			without written permission @Sweep they have broken rule L9
		
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Have they though? The wording of rule L9 is not clear and would certainly be challenged.

It would simply have the legal teams rubbing their hands with glee.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2021)

They would seriously struggle to get out of the championship. I don't mean that in a nasty way but that league is tough and full of very good teams

Look how long Leeds took to get back ![/QUOTE]

Very good teams like Fulham, Palace, Bournemouth, Sheffield Thursday, West Brom etc etc...........aye right.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very good teams like Fulham, Bournemouth, Sheffield United. aye right.


Very good teams like Fulham, Palace, Bournemouth, Sheffield Thursday, West Brom etc etc...........aye right.

Click to expand...

In the Premier League they aren't the best. But do you honestly think Rangers and Celtic are the same standard? They could be with investment. But as they stand, in my opinion they would seriously struggle to get out of the Championship or stay in the PL if thats where they were put.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

Oh not again 🤦‍♂️ - Rangers and Celtic will only want to move to the Prem to get more money , it’s not going to happen unless they want to start from the bottom and work they way up - I suspect both would end up being mid table teams

As for the Super League 

Time to move on now until the next time it comes up - which will be the 4th time


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## Bdill93 (Apr 22, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			In the Premier League they aren't the best. But do you honestly think Rangers and Celtic are the same standard? They could be with investment. But as they stand, in my opinion they would seriously struggle to get out of the Championship or stay in the PL if thats where they were put.
		
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I think they should start in the championship, but they wouldnt be there long. 

Both massive clubs, with EFL money theyd have bigger budgets than they do now, they'd both get promoted within 3 years I reckon. Wouldnt be suprised if one went up first try! Its a poor championship at the moment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			In the Premier League they aren't the best. But do you honestly think Rangers and Celtic are the same standard? They could be with investment. But as they stand, in my opinion they would seriously struggle to get out of the Championship or stay in the PL if thats where they were put.
		
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Seriously ........ATM Rangers and Celtic are better than the teams mentioned, maybe similar to Palace.
With the extra cash involved they would be top six within the EPL in a couple of years
FGS Bournemouth with its crappy wee ground and fan base survived for quite a while in the Premiership and Ollie McBurley is worth £20m in your little bubble.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56842442

Apparently it’s not over, the 12 Clubs involved have a “binding” contract and they’ve been working on it behind people’s back for nearly 3 years!! I guess that takes the no fans, covid argument off the table!

Absolute no trust with these Clubs!

This needs sorting once and for all, those Clubs need to guarantee to drop this ESL monopoly and work with and within existing structures or all these apologies that have come out are worthless.


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## Sweep (Apr 22, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Celtic and Rangers are more Sunday League than Super League.

If they want to play in England they should start at the bottom like every other team.
		
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I think Rangers have had enough of that scenario 😀


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## road2ruin (Apr 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56842442

Apparently it’s not over, the 12 Clubs involved have a “binding” contract and they’ve been working on it behind people’s back for nearly 3 years!! I guess that takes the no fans, covid argument off the table!

Absolute no trust with these Clubs!

This needs sorting once and for all, those Clubs need to guarantee to drop this ESL monopoly and work with and within existing structures or all these apologies that have come out are worthless.
		
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I obviously don't know the details but from my point of view Perez is a desperate man who is trying to keep the project going as Madrid are in a world of financial trouble, he has also been made a laughing stock because of this whole thing so his pride has taken a battering. I am not convinced the clubs would have signed a binding contract before the annoucement was made given the likely legal battle they were going to face from the EPL, UEFA etc etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I obviously don't know the details but from my point of view Perez is a desperate man who is trying to keep the project going as Madrid are in a world of financial trouble, he has also been made a laughing stock because of this whole thing so his pride has taken a battering. I am not convinced the clubs would have signed a binding contract before the annoucement was made given the likely legal battle they were going to face from the EPL, UEFA etc etc.
		
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The Super League talk has been going on for decades.  It was first muted in 1992 I think it was -then 1998 again , then I think about a decade ago 

Whilst UEFA continue to display their issues  and their own money grabbing and incompetence then the clubs will continue to look towards ways to challenge them - the Super League talk is never going to go away , it will either be used as leverage or one day it may well replace UEFA CL


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I obviously don't know the details but from my point of view Perez is a desperate man who is trying to keep the project going as Madrid are in a world of financial trouble, he has also been made a laughing stock because of this whole thing so his pride has taken a battering. I am not convinced the clubs would have signed a binding contract before the annoucement was made given the likely legal battle they were going to face from the EPL, UEFA etc etc.
		
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Totally agree and easily sorted, get the 6 PL Clubs to clarify the situation.

There were reports on Sky the contract was 177 pages long and a discussion as to whether they’d signed a contract or an intent.

Shouldn’t be too dificult to sort out.


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## Billysboots (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seriously ........ATM Rangers and Celtic are better than the teams mentioned, maybe similar to Palace.
With the extra cash involved they would be top six within the EPL in a couple of years
		
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At the expense of whom?

There is no way either club would squeeze out Man City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal (yes, really!), Leicester and perhaps a handful of others.

Celtic and Rangers are the stand out teams in an appallingly uncompetitive league, and their performances in Europe year in, year out are indicative of how they would perform in the Premier League. Yes, I accept that their financial situation would change with the money available to them, but both are absolutely miles away from being top six sides. Miles away.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Super League talk has been going on for decades.  It was first muted in 1992 I think it was -then 1998 again , then I think about a decade ago

Whilst UEFA continue to display their issues  and their own money grabbing and incompetence then the clubs will continue to look towards ways to challenge them - the Super League talk is never going to go away , it will either be used as leverage or one day it may well replace UEFA CL
		
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Then these Clubs need to work within their own leagues/FA’s etc to sort UEFA out, not break away on their own.


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## Sweep (Apr 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Hopefully @Sweep has got the message by now.

Click to expand...

Hopefully you will realise that I made the very same point myself on at least two occasions.
You are simply incapable of conducting a reasonable discussion or even understanding a simple point made in a discussion especially if it differs even slightly from your own.
FYI every discussion does not need to be an argument. 
You clearly have a problem with me, even though you don’t know me, have never met me and know nothing about me. We had this before and you said you would try to do better. Empty words.

Please, just leave me alone. Ignore me. Don’t answer my posts and don’t refer to me. Don’t PM me. I am not interested in your opinion, don’t bother yourself with mine. 
And for the love of God, stop trolling!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seriously ........ATM Rangers and Celtic are better than the teams mentioned, maybe similar to Palace.
With the extra cash involved they would be *top six within the EPL in a couple of years*
FGS Bournemouth with its crappy wee ground and fan base survived for quite a while in the Premiership and Ollie McBurley is worth £20m in your little bubble.

Click to expand...

Replacing which team ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Hopefully you will realise that I made the very same point myself on at least two occasions.
You are simply incapable of conducting a reasonable discussion or even understanding a simple point made in a discussion especially if it differs even slightly from your own.
FYI every discussion does not need to be an argument.
You clearly have a problem with me, even though you don’t know me, have never met me and know nothing about me. We had this before and you said you would try to do better. Empty words.

Please, just leave me alone. Ignore me. Don’t answer my posts and don’t refer to me. Don’t PM me. I am not interested in your opinion, don’t bother yourself with mine.
And for the love of God, stop trolling!
		
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More rubbish, grow up, I have absolutely no issue with you, I simply disagree with you on some parts of this debate!

I responded immediately with the facts about Utd and rather than acknowledge or accept you were wrong you threw your teddy out.

Obviously more posters clarifying the Utd situation wasn’t for my benefit.

And again, if you respond directly to me, expect a response, you have that control.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seriously ........ATM Rangers and Celtic are better than the teams mentioned, maybe similar to Palace.
With the extra cash involved they would be top six within the EPL in a couple of years
FGS Bournemouth with its crappy wee ground and fan base survived for quite a while in the Premiership and Ollie McBurley is worth £20m in your little bubble.

Click to expand...

What they could or could not do given mountains of cash is pretty irrelevant. There is no desire in the English leagues to bring them in, from fans, teams, police!, anyone. It's rolled out every so often by the Scottish media, possibly the 2 Glasgow teams, but down here it is tumbleweed stuff.


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## Billysboots (Apr 22, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What they could or could not do given mountains of cash is pretty irrelevant. There is no desire in the English leagues to bring them in, from fans, teams, *police*!, anyone. It's rolled out every so often by the Scottish media, possibly the 2 Glasgow teams, but down here it is tumbleweed stuff.
		
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Having been at Old Trafford the last time Celtic visited I can tell you the atmosphere generated by their fans was incredible but, at times, toxic. I’ve not felt that level of intimidation at a ground since the bad old 1st Division days of being a United fan at away games when, at times, I was genuinely frightened. I recall having a pane of glass pushed out and onto us in a pen, coins and seats hurled at us and, on one forgettable FA Cup trip to Highbury in the 80’s, having home fans urinate on us from an upper concourse. The Celtic game and atmosphere, at times, reminded me of those days.

Having also policed over a hundred games over the years, including in the EPL, I am now reasonably switched on to when the  level of toxicity I experienced at that Celtic game is likely to spill over to issues outside a ground which require police intervention.

I’m not sure the police would be too keen to have the Old Firm travelling down here every other week.


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## DCB (Apr 22, 2021)

Behave yourselves gents, you need to agree to disagree on this one, it's an emotive subject but please, behave properly to each other.


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## Orikoru (Apr 22, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			I think they should start in the championship, but they wouldnt be there long.

Both massive clubs, with EFL money theyd have bigger budgets than they do now, they'd both get promoted within 3 years I reckon. Wouldnt be suprised if one went up first try! Its a poor championship at the moment.
		
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I think this is about right. Current Celtic & Rangers sides are probably mid-Championship standard, but given the size and stature of the clubs, if you plonked them into the English leagues they would soon attract better players and be established Prem sides in a few years I think.


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## Sweep (Apr 22, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Having been at Old Trafford the last time Celtic visited I can tell you the atmosphere generated by their fans was incredible but, at times, toxic. I’ve not felt that level of intimidation at a ground since the bad old 1st Division days of being a United fan at away games when, at times, I was genuinely frightened. I recall having a pane of glass pushed out and onto us in a pen, coins and seats hurled at us and, on one forgettable FA Cup trip to Highbury in the 80’s, having home fans urinate on us from an upper concourse. The Celtic game and atmosphere, at times, reminded me of those days.

Having also policed over a hundred games over the years, including in the EPL, I am now reasonably switched on to when the  level of toxicity I experienced at that Celtic game is likely to spill over to issues outside a ground which require police intervention.

I’m not sure the police would be too keen to have the Old Firm travelling down here every other week.
		
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Fully agree. I went to see a Celtic European match that was moved to Old Trafford because, if my memory serves me correctly, Celtic were banned from playing it at home. In those days there was a certain amount of camaraderie between Celtic and United fans so we were supporting Celtic.  It was absolutely horrendous. The crowd were like animals. The opposition keeper was assaulted. United were playing an away European match, I think in Scotland and every time United scored the Celtic fans booed.
I can’t honestly remember the result but I am not sure it was good for Celtic. Either way I have never felt as uncomfortable in a football ground and came away with a real dislike for Celtic.


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## Imurg (Apr 22, 2021)

What would happen to Scottish football if the 2 big clubs join down south...?


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## larmen (Apr 22, 2021)

I think they would turn the ‘big 6’ into a ‘big 8’ with 2 teams missing out each year fairly randomly decided.
I think they would have an advantage over teams like Bournemouth, Swansea, ... based on location. The UK is fairly spotty, football wise. London, Manchester/Liverpool (yes, I lob them together as region), and there might be a gap further north. Glasgow.

I still would not admit them, play your way up from the bottom if you want to join. Why should they have more rights than Brentford?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What would happen to Scottish football if the 2 big clubs join down south...?
		
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Great question, plus why should any team governed by a different FA be fast tracked in to our leagues at the expense of English teams?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What would happen to Scottish football if the 2 big clubs join down south...?
		
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Prob the same as what would happen if the big 6 left the Prem - it would drop in quality and would be competitive to start with until a couple teams became a bit more stronger than the others 

It’s never going to happen then going straight into the Prem - they have no right to do so 

But what I think would be good is if they merged the two league cups to make it cup between all the teams in England and Scotland - worked in Rugby and would be a starting barometer


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## Reemul (Apr 22, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Hopefully you will realise that I made the very same point myself on at least two occasions.
You are simply incapable of conducting a reasonable discussion or even understanding a simple point made in a discussion especially if it differs even slightly from your own.
FYI every discussion does not need to be an argument.
You clearly have a problem with me, even though you don’t know me, have never met me and know nothing about me. We had this before and you said you would try to do better. Empty words.

Please, just leave me alone. Ignore me. Don’t answer my posts and don’t refer to me. Don’t PM me. I am not interested in your opinion, don’t bother yourself with mine.
And for the love of God, stop trolling!
		
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I suggest you stop posting or quoting if you do not want replies to your opinions, this is a forum for discussion and no offense, if you post people will reply so best you sit in the corner quietly.

There was no trolling in any of his posts...


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## PieMan (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			what I think would be good is if they merged the two league cups to make it cup between all the teams in England and Scotland - worked in Rugby and would be a starting barometer
		
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Quite like that idea 👍


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## Sweep (Apr 22, 2021)

Reemul said:



			I suggest you stop posting or quoting if you do not want replies to your opinions, this is a forum for discussion and no offense, if you post people will reply so best you sit in the corner quietly.

There was no trolling in any of his posts...
		
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Honestly, I simply wouldn’t answer any of his posts if they weren’t in reply to mine. I have previous experience and it’s not pleasant. He answered my very innocuous post and came straight out with the assertion that I didn’t understand how the Premier League works. It’s all there, you can read it. After that I think I have the right to reply, which I did, politely. Unfortunately the conversation decended from there so I asked him to just leave it and that I would do the same. Sadly it seems he was unable to do that. I ignored his response, so he referred to me in a post to someone else. I answered him and requested he leave it again and he wouldn’t. That is classic trolling.  I am sorry if you disagree. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
I have been on this forum for 8 years and I have had some great debates and indeed some right ding dongs in that time, particularly over Brexit. Never have I had to speak to a moderator or had to put a fellow forummer on ignore. Not once.
If I am honest, I haven’t posted on here for some while because the last time he had a go the moderators had to get involved by PM. The episode was unpleasant and upsetting. We worked it out between us by PM but TBH I didn’t want to risk a repeat episode. I was right to be cautious. It happened on practically the first post I made since.
Such unpleasantness sucks the enjoyment out of the forum. That’s why political posts were banned, I am sure. Part of me thinks I should just leave it, part of me questions why I should be bullied off posting. You say, I should sit in the corner quietly. Why should I? Is his opinion worth more than mine? Honestly, I don’t mind arguing with him. I will stand my ground. I don’t mind alternative opinions. I just don’t think every discussion needs to be an argument and I am pretty sure other forumers don’t want to read two people having a go at each other.
I am sorry to put this in public, but you did ask and I am going to defend myself.
Now, I am not sure if you have seen it, but a moderator has asked us to leave it. So that is all I am going to say on the matter and as far as I am concerned the matter is closed.


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Now you are talking....... a proper Super League.

Talks have begun over an 18-team 'British Super League' - which includes Celtic and Rangers (msn.com)

Click to expand...

Rangers and Celtic in the same sentence as Super League.... Championship fodder at best.


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Troll
		
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Whoa!!

6 and 2x3...


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## AmandaJR (Apr 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Rangers and Celtic in the same sentence as Super League.... Championship fodder at best.
		
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Oxymoron...love that word


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What would happen to Scottish football if the 2 big clubs join down south...?
		
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The clubs outwith the new/old firm would all be jumping up and down with sheer bliss and start enjoying a much fairer and competitive league.
Attendance figures would improve and clubs will become richer.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The clubs outwith the new/old firm would all be jumping up and down with sheer bliss and start enjoying a much fairer and competitive league.
Attendance figures would improve and clubs will become richer.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like the small pond rejoicing at the departure of the big fish...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sounds like the small pond rejoicing at the departure of the big fish... 

Click to expand...

If you know about fish in ponds you will know that the smaller fish then become bigger.


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## fundy (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you know about fish in ponds you will know that the smaller fish then become bigger.

Click to expand...


that or the little pond dries right up


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2021)

fundy said:



			that or the little pond dries right up 

Click to expand...

If money = water, and the big clubs leave... less water. The smaller clubs die.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you know about fish in ponds you will know that the smaller fish then become bigger.

Click to expand...

Or just becomes like second division.....

Money will dry up. League will die.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Prob the same as what would happen if the big 6 left the Prem - it would drop in quality and would be competitive to start with until a couple teams became a bit more stronger than the others

It’s never going to happen then going straight into the Prem - they have no right to do so

But what I think would be good is if they merged the two league cups to make it cup between all the teams in England and Scotland - worked in Rugby and would be a starting barometer
		
Click to expand...

Thats a good idea. They need to do something about the league cup, at the moment its just a poor relation to the FA cup that no one gives a rats about until they get to the semi final


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 22, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you know about fish in ponds you will know that the smaller fish then become bigger.

Click to expand...

Still a small pond though.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 22, 2021)

Back to the ESL; do we issue sanctions against the "Big 6", and if so, what?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Honestly, I simply wouldn’t answer any of his posts if they weren’t in reply to mine. I have previous experience and it’s not pleasant. He answered my very innocuous post and came straight out with the assertion that I didn’t understand how the Premier League works. 

I asked if you knew how the PL works as you stated and I quote “Not really sure how you can punish a business for trying to set up a perfectly legal alternative marketplace.”

I asked that as I have no idea how much you know, it was a simple question, especially as we don’t know if they had broken any rules/laws



It’s all there, you can read it. After that I think I have the right to reply, which I did, politely. Unfortunately the conversation decended from there so I asked him to just leave it and that I would do the same. 

Fact: you answered me at 6:54 last night and then at 9:55, 3hrs and 15 posts between us you stamped your feet, in those 15 posts you asked why I was “so upset” “making things up”, having a “narrative” and being “over emotional”

They were clearly your issue as I was none of them, I thought it was a discussion between 2 adults.

Sadly it seems he was unable to do that. 

As is my right on a public forum I answered and left it as I believe you threw a strop after being wrong about Man Utd, what you stated initially  “So when Man United didn’t play in the FA Cup didn’t they pick and choose then?” 

4 posters including me posted how you were incorrect, 

I tagged this morning after the last poster gave more information to show you your quote was wrong.

I ignored his response, so he referred to me in a post to someone else. I answered him and requested he leave it again and he wouldn’t. 

As you broke your word and did respond to my tag am I not entitled to respond to you?

That is classic trolling. I am sorry if you disagree. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

I have been on this forum for 8 years and I have had some great debates and indeed some right ding dongs in that time, particularly over Brexit. Never have I had to speak to a moderator (lies, you told me in an email you contacted Philthefragger, I still have the email) or had to put a fellow forummer on ignore. Not once.

If I am honest, I haven’t posted on here for some while because the last time he had a go the moderators had to get involved by PM. (More lies, I was never contacted by a moderator, the only involvement was between you and Phil) The episode was unpleasant and upsetting. We worked it out between us by PM but TBH I didn’t want to risk a repeat episode. I was right to be cautious. It happened on practically the first post I made since.

Such unpleasantness sucks the enjoyment out of the forum. That’s why political posts were banned, I am sure. Part of me thinks I should just leave it, part of me questions why I should be bullied off posting. You say, I should sit in the corner quietly. Why should I? Is his opinion worth more than mine? Honestly, I don’t mind arguing with him. I will stand my ground. I don’t mind alternative opinions. I just don’t think every discussion needs to be an argument and I am pretty sure other forumers don’t want to read two people having a go at each other. 

I was not having a go at you, simply answering the points you raised, it is your issue misinterpreting it as me having a go.

I am sorry to put this in public, but you did ask and I am going to defend myself.

Now, I am not sure if you have seen it, but a moderator has asked us to leave it. 

So when reemul posted, why didn’t you do as DCB requested and report reemul’s post, nobody forced you to reply and tell lies!

So that is all I am going to say on the matter and as far as I am concerned the matter is closed.
And I have a right to reply, in your emails in December you stated that you “let yourself become too embroiled on occasion and argued too harshly” this looks to me as your issues raising its head again.

Click to expand...

I did try to resolve this and respect what DCB told us to do, unfortunately that failed.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 22, 2021)

I’m nit sure they’ve broken any rules have they? As they didn’t actually participate in the comps. 

Imo, a 20 point penalty next season along with a season ban for Europe would be just, that being said, them all not being in Europe would cost uefa money in veiwing figures, so do see it happening.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Back to the ESL; do we issue sanctions against the "Big 6", and if so, what?  

Click to expand...

I think it has to be proved they broke any rules or laws before it can be judged fairly.

If they have and are punished I’d like to see a big fine and the monies given to the lower leagues or grassroots football, I don’t agree with the points/bans etc as it does affect fans and it’s been wrong in the past when the FA have done this.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 22, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Back to the ESL; do we issue sanctions against the "Big 6", and if so, what?  

Click to expand...

I think it would be hard to make anything stick as it never actually happened. I'd go for bringing back the stocks and an unlimited supply of custard pies


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## road2ruin (Apr 22, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Back to the ESL; do we issue sanctions against the "Big 6", and if so, what?  

Click to expand...

I think PL/UEFA are in a tricky position. They'd love to be able to throw the book at these teams and do all sorts of unspeakable things however they're also aware that, like it or not, these clubs have an awful lot of power. I think ultimately they will get a slap on the wrist and everyone on the Big 6's side will be terribly contrite (at least outwardly) and things will get back to normal fairly quickly. The EPL clubs are fortunate that it's happened at a time with no fans as there would be no hiding places in the stadiums.


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## road2ruin (Apr 22, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			I’m nit sure they’ve broken any rules have they? As they didn’t actually participate in the comps.
		
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Agree, I think the clubs would argue they made an error of judgement but didn't actually follow through so no harm done.



Papas1982 said:



			Imo, a 20 point penalty next season along with a season ban for Europe would be just,
		
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I think the issue for the EPL is that by deducting the clubs 20 points (for example) doesn't particularly punish the owners (long term) and will probably lead to bad feeling amongst the fans of those clubs who have been punished. Do they run the risk of those fans suddenly going to the dark side (supporting the ESL) just to spite them as they now feel hard done by and suddenly the goodwill that has been generated is lost. Not really sure that anything will end up happening to anyone.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree, I think the clubs would argue they made an error of judgement but didn't actually follow through so no harm done.



I think the issue for the EPL is that by deducting the clubs 20 points (for example) doesn't particularly punish the owners (long term) and will probably lead to bad feeling amongst the fans of those clubs who have been punished. Do they run the risk of those fans suddenly going to the dark side (supporting the ESL) just to spite them as they now feel hard done by and suddenly the goodwill that has been generated is lost. Not really sure that anything will end up happening to anyone.
		
Click to expand...

For all the bluster of some fans. I feel it would be a tiny portion of fans that did that.
numeorus clubs have been deducted points for being run poor financially, the is just another way they’ve been run poorly. 

That being said, I’d be amazed if anything happened at all.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree, I think the clubs would argue they made an error of judgement but didn't actually follow through so no harm done.



I think the issue for the EPL is that by deducting the clubs 20 points (for example) doesn't particularly punish the owners (long term) and will probably lead to bad feeling amongst the fans of those clubs who have been punished. Do they run the risk of those fans suddenly going to the dark side (supporting the ESL) just to spite them as they now feel hard done by and suddenly the goodwill that has been generated is lost. Not really sure that anything will end up happening to anyone.
		
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Doesn't stop them doing it to clubs that go into administration,  no fault of the fans there. In some ways thats even worse, nearly lose your club completely and then get kicked again while you're still down


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

If the 6 clubs were punished with points deduction then it’s going to lawyer central and it will be very messy 

Whilst it’s not great but those 6 clubs are a huge reason why the Premier League can sell the Telly rights for so much - they are a huge reason why the other clubs get so much money from being in the Prem. 

It’s very thinly balanced right now and good amount of hypocrisy from many areas within lots of governing bodies - who lets be honest were mainly worried about losing the gravy train of money as opposed to “rescuing the game” and upholding the integrity 

The clubs may get a small fine but I suspect they will be asked to leave working groups etc for the moment. 

I also noticed that UEFA may well be back tracking on some of their proposed changes - imagine that eh


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## Billysboots (Apr 22, 2021)

I’ve already said under this thread, by deducting points and banning clubs from the CL, you punish the players, managers and fans. None of this is their doing. Why should I be prevented from watching my club fighting for a title or competing in Europe because of my club owners’ greed?

Many of you seem to forget, supporters of some of these clubs despise their owners. I wouldn’t give the Glazers the steam off my 💩. I’m delighted to see Woodward going, but it’s the Glazer family I want rid of.

The authorities have to find a way of directly punishing the owners.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 22, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve already said under this thread, by deducting points and banning clubs from the CL, you punish the players, managers and fans. None of this is their doing. Why should I be prevented from watching my club fighting for a title or competing in Europe because of my club owners’ greed?

Many of you seem to forget, supporters of some of these clubs despise their owners. I wouldn’t give the Glazers the steam off my 💩. I’m delighted to see Woodward going, but it’s the Glazer family I want rid of.

The authorities have to find a way of directly punishing the owners.
		
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Throughout the whole of this shambolic episode there’s one word that keeps cropping up. Hypocrisy. If the Prem league, UEFA, FIFA had not been so useless none of this would of reared its ugly head. The inept prem league are the bloody idiots that allowed the Glazers to buy Utd on the back of loans. The Glazers then Went on to take a billion out of the club. As much as I would like the owners to have there knuckles rapped. Am not sure how it can be done.


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## Billysboots (Apr 22, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Throughout the whole of this shambolic episode there’s one word that keeps cropping up. Hypocrisy. If the Prem league, UEFA, FIFA had not been so useless none of this would of reared its ugly head. The inept prem league are the bloody idiots that allowed the Glazers to buy Utd on the back of loans. The Glazers then Went on to take a billion out of the club. As much as I would like the owners to have there knuckles rapped. *Am not sure how it can be done.*

Click to expand...

And therein lies the problem, Tash.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 22, 2021)

What happened happened, for me the prem league needs to be proactive to make sure nothing like this happens again. And listening to that tit in Spain he still thinks it may. That said, the prem leagues stance of “ fit and proper “ owners needs seriously looking at And revamping.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 22, 2021)

Its about to become a legal minefield and I can see a few slimy lawyers becoming very rich over the next few months.
It will never happen due to the legal implications but it would be nice if the FA/PL made it clear the owners of these clubs were no longer welcome in the league and were 'advised' to move on. A bit like a retrospect fit and proper person test.
I would then like to see a massive overhaul to the fit and proper person test...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Its about to become a legal minefield and I can see a few slimy lawyers becoming very rich over the next few months.
It will never happen due to the legal implications but it would be nice if the FA/PL made it clear the owners of these clubs were no longer welcome in the league and were 'advised' to move on. A bit like a retrospect fit and proper person test.
I would then like to see a massive overhaul to the fit and proper person test...

Click to expand...

Lots of rumours and speculstion over Newcastle’s proposed takeover last summer, some of it being that some of the 6 pressurised the PL in to blocking it as the investment could “rock the boat”

It’s still not finished and could be helped over the line by what’s happened over the last few days.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Lots of rumours and speculstion over Newcastle’s proposed takeover last summer, some of it being that some of the 6 pressurised the PL in to blocking it as the investment could “rock the boat”

It’s still not finished and could be helped over the line by what’s happened over the last few days.
		
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Do you have proof or is this just using rumour and speculation to tie in with your point of view?


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Do you have proof or is this just using rumour and speculation to tie in with your point of view?
		
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Rumoured every year that some concern is going to invest but nothing ever seems to happen.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 22, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Rumoured every year that some concern is going to invest but nothing ever seems to happen.
		
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Of course ut is, and MA is a perfect example of what fans moan about....an owner who won't spend his own money.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Its about to become a legal minefield and I can see a few slimy lawyers becoming very rich over the next few months.
It will never happen due to the legal implications but it would be nice if the FA/PL made it clear the owners of these clubs were no longer welcome in the league and were 'advised' to move on. A bit like a retrospect fit and proper person test.
I would then like to see a massive overhaul to the fit and proper person test...

Click to expand...

Every single one of those owners would pass a “fit and proper” test 

Every single person will have different ideas of what the owner should be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Do you have proof or is this just using rumour and speculation to tie in with your point of view?
		
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Here’s a few articles to read at your leisure.

Living up here amongst a few of them there has been lots of accusations since the take over was blocked by the PL.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/spo...tle-takeover-peter-kenyon-league-20446476.amp



https://www.footballinsider247.com/...-johnson-after-saudi-text-message-reveal/amp/



https://www.arabnews.com/tags/newcastle-united



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ris-Johnson-intervene-Newcastle-takeover.html

https://theathletic.com/2528718/202...-big-six-jealousy-hurting-newcastle-takeover/


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## Fade and Die (Apr 22, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve already said under this thread, by deducting points and banning clubs from the CL, you punish the players, managers and fans. None of this is their doing. Why should I be prevented from watching my club fighting for a title or competing in Europe because of my club owners’ greed?

Many of you seem to forget, supporters of some of these clubs despise their owners. I wouldn’t give the Glazers the steam off my 💩. I’m delighted to see Woodward going, but it’s the Glazer family I want rid of.

The authorities have to find a way of directly punishing the owners.
		
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The vast majority of punishments and penalties given to football clubs for malpractice or rule-breaking affects the fans even though it’s not their fault (ask Rangers fans) 

As a fan you reap the rewards of having greedy money sucking sociopaths at the top of your club that are rich beyond belief unfortunately when they over step you need to take the bad with the good

Imo best drop them down a divi or 20 points deducted this season and 20 points next season that should sting a little.

I would say you could slam the owners with the "fit & proper" test and then find them all, well "unfit"...after all they tried to upset a competition that they themselves are part of. So I can't imagine anyone being more unsuitable than a "saboteur".


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## fundy (Apr 22, 2021)

so Woodward met with BoJo at no 10 a few days before the Super League was launched but of course they didnt speak about it, yeah right lol


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 22, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve already said under this thread, by deducting points and banning clubs from the CL, you punish the players, managers and fans. None of this is their doing. Why should I be prevented from watching my club fighting for a title or competing in Europe because of my club owners’ greed?

Many of you seem to forget, supporters of some of these clubs despise their owners. I wouldn’t give the Glazers the steam off my 💩. I’m delighted to see Woodward going, but it’s the Glazer family I want rid of.

The authorities have to find a way of directly punishing the owners.
		
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The problem with this argument is that a club going into administration isn't the fault of the "players, managers or fans" but there is still a points deduction for it. "None of this is their doing". Almost every punishment that is dished out to clubs affects those groups, even if they weren't responsible for it. This to me smacks of hypocrisy from *some *fans of the big 6 clubs. All of a sudden you shouldn't punish the fans because of the actions of the clubs' owners. Where were those feelings when clubs such as Portsmouth were being deducted points because of what their owners' had done? It seems like double standards that all of a sudden the fans shouldn't be punished for the actions of the owners just because it's the big 6.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Who's saying they cant be both?
		
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They can, but I bet you they arent.

Most matchgoing fans arent as easily "bought off" with fancy baubles, and actually care more about their club and football as a whole that you would give us credit for.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem with this argument is that a club going into administration isn't the fault of the "players, managers or fans" but there is still a points deduction for it. "None of this is their doing". Almost every punishment that is dished out to clubs affects those groups, even if they weren't responsible for it. This to me smacks of hypocrisy from *some *fans of the big 6 clubs. All of a sudden you shouldn't punish the fans because of the actions of the clubs' owners. Where were those feelings when clubs such as Portsmouth were being deducted points because of what their owners' had done? It seems like double standards that all of a sudden the fans shouldn't be punished for the actions of the owners just because it's the big 6.
		
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I very much doubt many fans would have wanted to see Portsmouth punished for the actions of the owners - but unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there. I don’t believe a club going into administration should also be given points deductions. Points deductions should Imo be only in place for cheating


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## fundy (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I very much doubt many fans would have wanted to see Portsmouth punished *for the actions of the owners - but unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there. I don’t believe a club going into administration should also be given points deductions. Points deductions should Imo be only in place for cheating
		
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pretty sure @SaintHacker wouldve


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I very much doubt many fans would have wanted to see Portsmouth punished for the actions of the owners - but unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there. I don’t believe a club going into administration should also be given points deductions. Points deductions should Imo be only in place for cheating
		
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What are the punishments in place for breaking the PL rule L9? I've not seen them spelled out anywhere but I assume that if it says that the punishment for breaking that rule is relegation from the PL and a 20 point deduction at the start of the following season you will fully support that action, as "unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there".


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## Billysboots (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I very much doubt many fans would have wanted to see Portsmouth punished for the actions of the owners - but unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there. I don’t believe a club going into administration should also be given points deductions. Points deductions should Imo be only in place for cheating
		
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Agreed. Points deductions have always struck me as unfair. I don’t know enough about sanctions for insolvency, breaches of salary caps and so on to compare these with the ESL.

But I do not agree with any sanction which directly impacts upon fans. It seems overly simplistic to say that, as a United fan, I reap the benefits of the Glazer family’s previous financial “dabbling” and should therefore pick up the tab when it all goes belly up - I just want to watch 22 blokes kicking a bag of wind around a pitch on a Saturday afternoon.

I accept I have the rose tinted specs on, but the working man and woman who simply wants to watch football should not pay the price for decisions made by faceless business people, especially when those decisions are made solely for personal gain.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 22, 2021)

Sweep said:



			Honestly, I simply wouldn’t answer any of his posts if they weren’t in reply to mine. I have previous experience and it’s not pleasant. He answered my very innocuous post and came straight out with the assertion that I didn’t understand how the Premier League works. It’s all there, you can read it. After that I think I have the right to reply, which I did, politely. Unfortunately the conversation decended from there so I asked him to just leave it and that I would do the same. Sadly it seems he was unable to do that. I ignored his response, so he referred to me in a post to someone else. I answered him and requested he leave it again and he wouldn’t. That is classic trolling.  I am sorry if you disagree. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
I have been on this forum for 8 years and I have had some great debates and indeed some right ding dongs in that time, particularly over Brexit. Never have I had to speak to a moderator or had to put a fellow forummer on ignore. Not once.
If I am honest, I haven’t posted on here for some while because the last time he had a go the moderators had to get involved by PM. The episode was unpleasant and upsetting. We worked it out between us by PM but TBH I didn’t want to risk a repeat episode. I was right to be cautious. It happened on practically the first post I made since.
Such unpleasantness sucks the enjoyment out of the forum. That’s why political posts were banned, I am sure. Part of me thinks I should just leave it, part of me questions why I should be bullied off posting. You say, I should sit in the corner quietly. Why should I? Is his opinion worth more than mine? Honestly, I don’t mind arguing with him. I will stand my ground. I don’t mind alternative opinions. I just don’t think every discussion needs to be an argument and I am pretty sure other forumers don’t want to read two people having a go at each other.
I am sorry to put this in public, but you did ask and I am going to defend myself.
Now, I am not sure if you have seen it, but a moderator has asked us to leave it. So that is all I am going to say on the matter and as far as I am concerned the matter is closed.
		
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Wait till you meet him, he's frightening and he wears this big mad intimidating garb, looks like a cross between Ronald macdonald and a morris dancer. Mad.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			What are the punishments in place for breaking the PL rule L9? I've not seen them spelled out anywhere but I assume that if it says that the punishment for breaking that rule is relegation from the PL and a 20 point deduction at the start of the following season you will fully support that action, as "unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there".
		
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Is that the rule about competing in a competition not sanctioned by Prem etc ?

I can’t recall any of the clubs have actually competed in any other competitions beyond the UEFA , FA or Prem league comps this season ?

But let’s see what a lawyer will say if it goes ahead and also what sanctions they have in place

That also doesn’t take away the point that fans don’t want to see clubs be deducted points Imo unless the club is cheating

But if they do go ahead with it then lawyers will be rubbing their hands


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Is that the rule about competing in a competition not sanctioned by Prem etc ?*

I can’t recall any of the clubs have actually competed in any other competitions beyond the UEFA , FA or Prem league comps this season ?

But let’s see what a lawyer will say if it goes ahead and also what sanctions they have in place

That also doesn’t take away the point that fans don’t want to see clubs be deducted points Imo unless the club is cheating

But if they do go ahead with it then lawyers will be rubbing their hands
		
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Not it's not. The actual rule is about being able to "enter" a non-sanctioned competition, not "competing" in one. 

How legally binding the contracts are for those clubs entering the competition are will make a massive difference to any punishment. But well done on deflecting from the question of whether you would support any punishment.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not it's not. The actual rule is about being able to "enter" a non-sanctioned competition, not "competing" in one.

How legally binding the contracts are for those clubs entering the competition are will make a massive difference to any punishment. But well done on deflecting from the question of whether you would support any punishment.
		
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As I said already - don’t believe points should be deducted for clubs going into administration like Portsmouth 🤷‍♂️

I don’t support it for anything apart from cheating


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 22, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			The vast majority of punishments and penalties given to football clubs for malpractice or rule-breaking affects the fans even though it’s not their fault (ask Rangers fans)

As a fan you reap the rewards of having greedy money sucking sociopaths at the top of your club that are rich beyond belief unfortunately when they over step you need to take the bad with the good

*Imo best drop them down a divi *or 20 points deducted this season and 20 points next season that should sting a little.

I would say you could slam the owners with the "fit & proper" test and then find them all, well "unfit"...after all they tried to upset a competition that they themselves are part of. So I can't imagine anyone being more unsuitable than a "saboteur".
		
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Yeah, it will; it'll sting the Premier League who will lose their 6 biggest draw teams, and consequently affect revenue streams, potentially for 3 or 4 seasons until they all get back in.  That will affect incomes for the remaining 14.  The remaining 14 will also potentially lose transfer revenue as the "Big 6" will be unlikely to buy from them or pay the previous prices; great if the other 14 can survive without that revenue, but can they?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said already - don’t believe points should be deducted for clubs going into administration like Portsmouth 🤷‍♂️

I don’t support it for anything apart from cheating
		
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But you said "I very much doubt many fans would have wanted to see Portsmouth punished for the actions of the owners - but unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there". My question was, if the rules state that the punishment for breaking PL rule L9 are relegation and a 20 point deduction at the start of next year would you support that? Whether you believe a points deduction should be applied or not, if the rules are there then surely you have to support them?


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## Reemul (Apr 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			But you said "I very much doubt many fans would have wanted to see Portsmouth punished for the actions of the owners - but unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there". My question was, if the rules state that the punishment for breaking PL rule L9 are relegation and a 20 point deduction at the start of next year would you support that? Whether you believe a points deduction should be applied or not, if the rules are there then surely you have to support them?
		
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Of course not, he's a Liverpool supporter, the rules are different for them and the other big teams


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 22, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Of course not, he's a Liverpool supporter, the rules are different for them and the other big teams
		
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Same as the other 22 teams who usurped division 1 from the football league at the start of the premier league, of which Everton were one of the big 5 who were at the forefront of it (as well as us), but dont let facts get in the way of a pop at the only team you're really bothered about, eh?

Maybe you're not old enough to remember when you were a top dog.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			They can, but I bet you they arent.

Most matchgoing fans arent as easily "bought off" with fancy baubles, and actually care more about their club and football as a whole that you would give us credit for.
		
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I know as much as you do, I certainly wouldn't be if it was my club (fwiw I would love nothing more than to see the back of our current 'owner'), but the comments I was reading were on the Liverpool Echo facebook page, so more likely to be locals I wouuld have thought. Blues fans in for a wind up maybe?


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## SaintHacker (Apr 22, 2021)

fundy said:



			pretty sure @SaintHacker wouldve 

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At the time I was of the opinion not to wind them up and close them down was an outrageous miscarriage of justice, but the continued hilarity they have given me since has more than made up for the judges decision


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I know as much as you do, I certainly wouldn't be if it was my club (fwiw I would love nothing more than to see the back of our current 'owner'), but the comments I was reading were on the Liverpool Echo facebook page, so more likely to be locals I wouuld have thought. Blues fans in for a wind up maybe?
		
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There are all sorts of loons on whatever subject on newspaper comments pages, fan forums are a better idea, but I dont know one Liverpool fan who was even partly in favour of the ESL and most vehemently against it.

They were also horrified at our owners being party to it, as well as 3-4 other things they have apologised for and also committed U turns on, due to fan pressure. Buying an Mbappe may please some, but most locals/matchgoers wont sell our soul for a few high profile player acquisitions, even though overdue. If they step out of line again, we'll be the first to hold them to account.


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## PieMan (Apr 23, 2021)

Even a few days later I still can't believe Tottenham are included in the 'Big 6'........😉😂😂😂


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Even a few days later I still can't believe Tottenham are included in the 'Big 6'........😉😂😂😂
		
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Thats London weighting for you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Why when one of us outside the 6 are commenting the bias and bitchy accusations start flying around.

Believe it or not it is possible to make a comment or judgement from a neutral view point, sadly most comments are read on the back foot.

Would of Everton benefitted from the ESL going ahead? From what we were told absolutely, Would the PL suffer if the 6 were thrown out (stupid suggestion) short term most definitely.

Now ask yourselves why the ESL failed, if it was to everybodies benefit what are we missing? We obviously have different views on why.

Sadly some who are defending the no points, no ban punishment (who I actually agree with) were very vocal on here along with some of their fans on other media platforms wanting bans points deductions etc for other Clubs when their owners etc have stepped out of line. I’ve never seen anyone on here express any sympathy for the fans/players/managers of other Clubs of team who have suffered from the mis-behaviour of owners.

There needs to be a response and some action against these 6, just the same as I would want if it Everton had been involved.

Try reading posts instead of the poster, we all do it, we do it to those we’ve met and to those we haven’t.


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## Beezerk (Apr 23, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Even a few days later I still can't believe Tottenham are included in the 'Big 6'........😉😂😂😂
		
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The missus was like " So who are the big 6 anyway? Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea, I can't think of the other two".
I did chuckle a bit


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## chrisd (Apr 23, 2021)

Even though I don't support any of the "big 6" i would not view taking action against them as a way forward. They are all apologetic to their fans and football generally and in some ways i dont blame them for trying to grab the carrot dangled before them.

I'd put in to place a set of rules for the future ensuring that clandestine meetings and legal agreements entered into would , in future, bring heavy sanctions and leave it there.


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## Sweep (Apr 23, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Of course not, he's a Liverpool supporter, the rules are different for them and the other big teams
		
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Except they are not.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 23, 2021)




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## BiMGuy (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I very much doubt many fans would have wanted to see Portsmouth punished for the actions of the owners - but unfortunately the punishments for the rules they broke were there. I don’t believe a club going into administration should also be given points deductions. Points deductions should Imo be only in place for cheating
		
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Maybe not Portsmouth, but I can tell you with bitter experience that many fans of other teams were delighted when Leeds were deducted 15 points at the start of to 07/08 season.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2021)

If wagging a finger at a club and telling them not to be naughty is the only action against them then clubs really will not be afraid of breaking rules in future. There has to be a disincentive out there and it has to mean something.


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## RichA (Apr 23, 2021)

Apologise. Don't do it again. Move on. Improve. 
Can't see any other solution that's proportionate.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Yeah, it will; it'll sting the Premier League who will lose their 6 biggest draw teams, and consequently affect revenue streams, potentially for 3 or 4 seasons until they all get back in.  That will affect incomes for the remaining 14.  The remaining 14 will also potentially lose transfer revenue as the "Big 6" will be unlikely to buy from them or pay the previous prices; great if the other 14 can survive without that revenue, but can they?
		
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I know it’s a bit “cutting off your nose to spite your face” but is it right for these teams to still be competing in a league they were trying to cripple last week or trying to get in the CL a competition they were trying to destroy last week?

I think the old “you need us more than we need you” way of thinking needs to be tested by the 14 clubs the pig 6 were trying to stitch up. Be an interesting next meeting of the prem league clubs.

(I still think they will come out of it with a suspended sentence and more money though 😄)


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## chrisd (Apr 23, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I know it’s a bit “cutting off your nose to spite your face” but is it right for these teams to still be competing in a league they were trying to cripple last week or trying to get in the CL a competition they were trying to destroy last week?

I think the old “you need us more than we need you” way of thinking needs to be tested by the 14 clubs the pig 6 were trying to stitch up. Be an interesting next meeting of the prem league clubs.

(I still think they will come out of it with a suspended sentence and more money though 😄)
		
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There was no intent imo by the big 6 to destroy the 14, that may have been a consequence, but clearly not the reason, for the plan


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## Jimaroid (Apr 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If wagging a finger at a club and telling them not to be naughty is the only action against them then clubs really will not be afraid of breaking rules in future. There has to be a disincentive out there and it has to mean something.
		
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What rule have they broken? 

That has to be established before punishment can be determined. Indiscriminate punishments are not effective disincentives, and tend to lead to increasingly worse behaviour in reply.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

The premier league.
quote from Wikipedia.
*The competition was founded as the FA Premier League on 20 February 1992 following the decision of clubs in the Football League First Division to break away from the Football League, founded in 1888, and take advantage of a lucrative television rights deal.*[2] The deal was worth around £1 billion a year domestically as of 2013–14, with Sky and BT Group securing the domestic rights to broadcast 116 and 38 games respectively.[3] 

The formation of the Premier league was all about getting more money for the top clubs. They broke away. Am sure the rest of the football league clubs were not happy. The “ top six” tried doing something very similar in a sense of getting more money. No one is going to convince me it was in order to “ save the game”. Ave said before, the hypocrisy of Clubs, leagues etc is disgusting.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The premier league.
quote from Wikipedia.
*The competition was founded as the FA Premier League on 20 February 1992 following the decision of clubs in the Football League First Division to break away from the Football League, founded in 1888, and take advantage of a lucrative television rights deal.*[2] The deal was worth around £1 billion a year domestically as of 2013–14, with Sky and BT Group securing the domestic rights to broadcast 116 and 38 games respectively.[3]

The formation of the Premier league was all about getting more money for the top clubs. They broke away. Am sure the rest of the football league clubs were not happy. The “ top six” tried doing something very similar in a sense of getting more money. No one is going to convince me it was in order to “ save the game”. Ave said before, the hypocrisy of Clubs, leagues etc is disgusting.
		
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Bit disingenious to cut and paste part of wiki tash, the TV deal in 1992 was £304 million over 5 years, yes a hideous sum and yes part greed, but look at the background as to why? The Taylor Report had come out, Stadiums had to be improved, who was going to pay? I’d guess the Football Fan and without that change some Clubs may of gone under.

The so called “big 5” then also brought along 17 other Clubs in to the Premier League, didn’t want seperate competitions and increased relegation promotion with no one immune.

What they envisaged then to what we have now is beyond all recognition.

As I posted earlier, no doubt the ESL believed everyone would benefit from their seperation, but to me it was more than money, the formation of the PL was to benefit English football, not 9 other Clubs around Europe.

One further point, ( not aimed at you Tash) back in 18/19 when the charges against City for breaking the ffp system were brought, people also wanted City done for the legal loopholes they’d circumvented as well, so if it was ok to want to throw the book at them for that, I can understand people wanting action against the 6, even if proved they broke no rules.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

But again as I say Paul, it was all about more money for the top clubs.After the taylor report came out, it was not just clubs in the new prem that needed updating. 
Re the super league, what has gone mostly unnoticed is UEFAS new champions league format that has been “ agreed”. It has been labelled as the slightly lesser of the two evils.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			There was no intent imo by the big 6 to destroy the 14, that may have been a consequence, but clearly not the reason, for the plan
		
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I did say destroy the CL...I don’t believe they intended to destroy the 14 but any halfwit could see it would have a massive impact on them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			But again as I say Paul, it was all about more money for the top clubs.After the taylor report came out, it was not just clubs in the new prem that needed updating.
Re the super league, what has gone mostly unnoticed is UEFAS new champions league format that has been “ agreed”. It has been labelled as the slightly lesser of the two evils.
		
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Just like now, something needed to change, the PL stayed within English Football and the game grew, the ESL doesn’t and didn’t, I personally think it stinks our Club were more interested in giving foreign clubs a larger slice to help them grow and at the same time giving less to those English Clubs they have a 133yrs of shared history with.

I don’t care how foreign clubs cope and the ESL was focussed on them.

As for the new CL that has been done from within and if the members are not happy they need to change from how they vote, it’s not 6 or 7 FA’s breaking away from UEFA and making their own CL and just expecting it to be ok.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			What rule have they broken?

That has to be established before punishment can be determined. Indiscriminate punishments are not effective disincentives, and tend to lead to increasingly worse behaviour in reply.
		
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Post #327. Rule L.9


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 23, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I know it’s a bit “cutting off your nose to spite your face” but is it right for these teams to still be competing in a league they were trying to cripple last week or trying to get in the CL a competition they were trying to destroy last week?

I think the old “you need us more than we need you” way of thinking needs to be tested by the 14 clubs the pig 6 were trying to stitch up. Be an interesting next meeting of the prem league clubs.

(I still think they will come out of it with a suspended sentence and more money though 😄)
		
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They still intended competing in the Premier League so they are hardly trying to cripple that; they were looking like leaving the Champions League just as UEFA was going to change the competition to add an extra 100 games and a further 4 teams.  Were UEFA doing that to save football or out of the same pure greed that the "Big 6" have been accused of?

For clarification, that is not to say that two wrongs make a right; I'm just pointing out that whilst the teams involved are rightly being vilified, UEFA seem to be getting a pass.

As for the greed aspect, if the figures I have seen were correct & panned out, the ESL was offering to give back to football a sum 67% above that which UEFA currently provide.  Who's greedy...


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Post #327. Rule L.9






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This is where the fun will start; can they enter a competition this season that doesn't start until next season?  I can hear the lawyers ringing the Ferrari dealers now...


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			This is where the fun will start; can they enter a competition this season that doesn't start until next season?  I can hear the lawyers ringing the Ferrari dealers now...  

Click to expand...

Dock the points this season, dock the points next season? Take your pick.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			They still intended competing in the Premier League so they are hardly trying to cripple that; they were looking like leaving the Champions League just as UEFA was going to change the competition to add an extra 100 games and a further 4 teams.  Were UEFA doing that to save football or out of the same pure greed that the "Big 6" have been accused of?

For clarification, that is not to say that two wrongs make a right; I'm just pointing out that whilst the teams involved are rightly being vilified, UEFA seem to be getting a pass.

As for the greed aspect, if the figures I have seen were correct & panned out, the ESL was offering to give back to football a sum 67% above that which UEFA currently provide.  Who's greedy... 

Click to expand...

Maybe if they’d of waited for the UEFA announcement then came out with the proposed ESL in reaction to it, they may, may of got a fair hearing and gathered some support, by doing what they did it has took the spotlight off UEFA.

There’s no doubt the ESL was going to make a lot of money, but I know you understand there’s more to it than that.

It would of in my mind created a 2 tier PL, vastly different to now, damaged the FA and Carabao Cups, maybe not important to PL Clubs but huge to EFL and non-league Clubs, and all ignored by giving everyone hush money.


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## Billysboots (Apr 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit disingenious to cut and paste part of wiki tash, the TV deal in 1992 was £304 million over 5 years, yes a hideous sum and yes part greed, but look at the background as to why? The Taylor Report had come out, Stadiums had to be improved, who was going to pay? I’d guess the Football Fan and without that change some Clubs may of gone under.

The so called “big 5” then also brought along 17 other Clubs in to the Premier League, didn’t want seperate competitions and increased relegation promotion with no one immune.

What they envisaged then to what we have now is beyond all recognition.

As I posted earlier, no doubt the ESL believed everyone would benefit from their seperation, but to me it was more than money, the formation of the PL was to benefit English football, not 9 other Clubs around Europe.

One further point, ( not aimed at you Tash) *back in 18/19 when the charges against City for breaking the ffp system were brought, people also wanted City done for the legal loopholes they’d circumvented as well, so if it was ok to want to throw the book at them for that, I can understand people wanting action against the 6, even if proved they broke no rules.*

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But surely the reason fans of other clubs wanted the book thrown at City was because they perceived, rightly or otherwise, that City had sought to gain an unfair advantage over their Premier League rivals. The alleged financial irregularities were, if press reports were to be believed, intended to ensure City were not on a level playing field with the 19 other PL clubs, against whom they would continue to compete.

The result of the ESL proposal would have been very different. The clubs would not have gained any advantage over PL rivals because they would have been prevented from even participating in it.

Again, another very simplistic view I agree, but by saying that the 6 clubs should be docked points and banned from this or that, their fans suffering as a result, simply because other clubs and their fans have suffered a similar fate in the past, is comparing apples with pears.

If there is a way to punish the owners, I still say that is the way forward. And I say that regardless of my team colours. This scheme is something club owners have been plotting for years, in direct defiance of what the fans want and, as now seems very clear, managers and players. The owners wanted it, the owners worked towards it, and the owners stood to reap the financial rewards. It is those individuals who should now pay the price.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			But surely the reason fans of other clubs wanted the book thrown at City was because they perceived, rightly or otherwise, that City had sought to gain an unfair advantage over their Premier League rivals. The alleged financial irregularities were, if press reports were to be believed, intended to ensure City were not on a level playing field with the 19 other PL clubs, against whom they would continue to compete.

The result of the ESL proposal would have been very different. The clubs would not have gained any advantage over PL rivals because they would have been prevented from even participating in it.

Again, another very simplistic view I agree, but by saying that the 6 clubs should be docked points and banned from this or that, their fans suffering as a result, simply because other clubs and their fans have suffered a similar fate in the past, is comparing apples with pears.

If there is a way to punish the owners, I still say that is the way forward. And I say that regardless of my team colours. This scheme is something club owners have been plotting for years, in direct defiance of what the fans want and, as now seems very clear, managers and players. The owners wanted it, the owners worked towards it, and the owners stood to reap the financial rewards. It is those individuals who should now pay the price.
		
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It is a simplistic view as you say and one I don’t agree with, but I can understand it, City were to face a ban from the CL, not the PL, so in affect UEFA were once again doing nothing for the PL. FFP is all about European Comps.


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## Billysboots (Apr 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It is a simplistic view as you say and one I don’t agree with, but I can understand it, City were to face a ban from the CL, not the PL, so in affect UEFA were once again doing nothing for the PL. FFP is all about European Comps.
		
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It’s difficult to be anything other than simplistic when considering something so complex which I have no real knowledge of!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			It’s difficult to be anything other than simplistic when considering something so complex which I have no real knowledge of!
		
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It was brought in under Platini’s watch and I’ll always be very cynical over it in that he saw the PL making huge amounts had foreign investors moving in and didn’t want English Football dominating Europe for years.


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## Jimaroid (Apr 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Post #327. Rule L.9
		
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As has been pointed out a few times, no team has broken that rule as it is written. It doesn't even need a legal interpretation although I foresee it may end up there.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Dock the points this season, dock the points next season? Take your pick.
		
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Or implement the Leeds rule and do both! 😁


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			As has been pointed out a few times, no team has broken that rule as it is written. It doesn't even need a legal interpretation although I foresee it may end up there.
		
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They signed up to enter the league. It states 'to enter or play'. They did the former, not yet the latter.


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## yandabrown (Apr 23, 2021)

Can the chairmen not be hit with the standard "Bringing the game into disrepute" that many off-field things appear to get hit with?


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 23, 2021)

So whilst a few English teams fans are moaning about the (rightly) dropped ESL plans, complaining about the money it would bring those in it, does anyone realise that every other league in UEFA is complaining about the money the PL teams have from their tv deals?
Every PL team is collectively guilty of exactly the same thing as those 6.

If the PL teams and fans are so concerned about the lower league teams, why did they vote down the Project Bug Picture that would have given the lower league teams a huge amount of money and support


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So whilst a few English teams fans are moaning about the (rightly) dropped ESL plans, complaining about the money it would bring those in it, does anyone realise that *every other league in UEFA is complaining about the money the PL teams have from their tv deals?*
Every PL team is collectively guilty of exactly the same thing as those 6.

If the PL teams and fans are so concerned about the lower league teams, why did they vote down the Project Bug Picture that would have given the lower league teams a huge amount of money and support
		
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Absolutely nothing stopping any of those leagues marketing themselves as well as the PL, nothing at all. Also nothing stopping any team from a lower division joining that league, as long as they get there on merit.

Totally agree about the last part, no argument there.


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## Whereditgo (Apr 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They signed up to enter the league. It states 'to enter or play'. They did the former, not yet the latter.
		
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And the semantics of that would happily be argued in court making the legal guys a lot of money.

A 20 points deduction (as some have suggested) would make the following years CL less attractive as not all the best PL clubs would manage to qualify, UEFA are not going to like that surely.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			And the semantics of that would happily be argued in court making the legal guys a lot of money.

A 20 points deduction (as some have suggested) would make the following years CL less attractive as not all the best PL clubs would manage to qualify, UEFA are not going to like that surely.
		
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Oh, completely. 

You would expect that somewhere in the rules would be a list of punishments but I'm not sure there is.

Personally, I would go 10 point deduction. That punishes, sends a message, but does not damage the teams too greatly.


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## Sweep (Apr 23, 2021)

If I was one of the 6 and we were hit with a 20 point deduction I would treat it as a “free year” and blood a team full of youngsters, building a team for the future. As long as you don’t get relegated you can’t really lose. No-one would expect you to win anything and as we know, you win nothing with kids. It would certainly provide breathing space and in the long run could save a shed load of cash.
Of course neither the deduction or playing kids is going to happen.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They signed up to enter the league. It states 'to enter or play'. They did the former, not yet the latter.
		
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No, it says during the Season a club shall not enter or play...   This is the 2020 - 2021 PL season.  The ESL will not start at the earliest until August 2021 - 2022.  So the lawyers will argue the toss around the meaning of during, Season and enter.  Unless the PL has tightened up its regulations tighter than a shark's bottom at 50 fathoms, there is plenty of wriggle room.  

Trust me on this one, it is not as black and white as it appears.  If you don't believe me, get a copy of a statute and look at the definitions in the fine print.  I'll stop there otherwise @Billysboots will start to get flashbacks again...


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 23, 2021)

Let’s hope that doesn’t cross the political line..


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

There’s something about this whole super league business that has me puzzled.
12 teams were competing, another 6 had said nope. Big banks in the USA were involved. People who were employed by UEFA were involved. And yet at no point did anyone whistleblow. Even the teams that were against it. No one said a dicky bird. We had an inkling the greedy clubs were up to a dastardly deed. But no one had any idea re what and when this failed league was going to start. A lot of people knew what was being planned and yet not a whisper. Why? Was it really that well planned and secretive. If any of the red tops had a sniff of this they would of been like flies round a day old turd. How they managed to keep it so quiet is beyond me.


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## IanM (Apr 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			How they managed to keep it so quiet is beyond me.
		
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I am sure they were well rewarded for their silence


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			And the semantics of that would happily be argued in court making the legal guys a lot of money.

A 20 points deduction (as some have suggested) would make the following years CL less attractive as not all the best PL clubs would manage to qualify, UEFA are not going to like that surely.
		
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As much as i disagree with a ( 20 ) points deduction. And it’s all hypothetical. It wouldn’t really be much of a punishment. City would still be in a champs league place, So would all the Spanish and 2 of the Italian teams. Spurs would still release a dvd. So am not to sure it would affect UEFA that much. For me since Platini has gone not a lot has changed at UEFA,and until they sort themselves out they will not sort out european football.


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## Billysboots (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'll stop there otherwise @Billysboots will start to get flashbacks again... 

Click to expand...


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, it says during the Season a club shall not enter or play...   This is the 2020 - 2021 PL season.  The ESL will not start at the earliest until August 2021 - 2022.  So the lawyers will argue the toss around the meaning of during, Season and enter.  Unless the PL has tightened up its regulations tighter than a shark's bottom at 50 fathoms, there is plenty of wriggle room. 

Trust me on this one, it is not as black and white as it appears.  If you don't believe me, get a copy of a statute and look at the definitions in the fine print.  I'll stop there otherwise @Billysboots will start to get flashbacks again... 

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that clubs cannot be punished and all we can really do is humiliate the supporters of the shameful 6 at each and every opportunity? .

Everton v London Blaze tonight, looking forward to it


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you suggesting that clubs cannot be punished and all we can really do is humiliate the supporters of the shameful 6 at each and every opportunity? .

Everton v London Blaze tonight, looking forward to it 

Click to expand...

I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 

Demote them?  The Premier League's television rights value takes a big hit; Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth, Swansea, Brentford & Barnsley don't have the same box office appeal.

Points deduction?  Potentially risks part of the above, but realistically only gives the title to someone else for a year, one that will always have an asterisk against it.

Transfer ban?  Their squads are probably big enough to withstand it, and it potentially deprives lower clubs of income that they might depend on.

Fine the owners?  Chump change to the guys.

What punishment will actually punish them without punishing those around them equally?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Demote them?  The Premier League's television rights value takes a big hit; Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth, Swansea, Brentford & Barnsley don't have the same box office appeal.

Points deduction?  Potentially risks part of the above, but realistically only gives the title to someone else for a year, one that will always have an asterisk against it.

Transfer ban?  Their squads are probably big enough to withstand it, and it potentially deprives lower clubs of income that they might depend on.

Fine the owners?  Chump change to the guys.

What punishment will actually punish them without punishing those around them equally?
		
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Maybe tell the owners they have two years to find a buyer then they are banned from owning a football club in the UK.
But I can see lots of complications in this so it’s just a thought.
but it might stop any futher attempts at a breakaway in future.


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## larmen (Apr 23, 2021)

Sweep said:



			If I was one of the 6 and we were hit with a 20 point deduction I would treat it as a “free year” and blood a team full of youngsters, building a team for the future. As long as you don’t get relegated you can’t really lose. No-one would expect you to win anything and as we know, you win nothing with kids. It would certainly provide breathing space and in the long run could save a shed load of cash.
Of course neither the deduction or playing kids is going to happen.
		
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How many points do people think we can take of the big 6 and they are still winning stuff? 10? 15?

Arsenal might be in trouble but City or Liverpool still win the league?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Demote them?  The Premier League's television rights value takes a big hit; Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth, Swansea, Brentford & Barnsley don't have the same box office appeal.

Points deduction?  Potentially risks part of the above, but realistically only gives the title to someone else for a year, one that will always have an asterisk against it.

Transfer ban?  Their squads are probably big enough to withstand it, and it potentially deprives lower clubs of income that they might depend on.

Fine the owners?  Chump change to the guys.

What punishment will actually punish them without punishing those around them equally?
		
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Maybe leave that decision to the other Clubs and let them vote on it, as at the moment everything is about money and there seems no way to punish them and just allow them to carry on as they want.

Maybe now is the time to press the reset button, all Clubs starting equal, less TV money, more help for the lower leagues, lower wages, lower ticket prices etc, almost taking 2 steps back to go 1 step forward.

Might take 10-15yrs to sort out, but if it’s for the best and secures the future of English Football then there has to be pain and the pain taken by everyone, just some take a bit more pain.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit disingenious to cut and paste part of wiki tash, the TV deal in 1992 was £304 million over 5 years, yes a hideous sum and yes part greed, but look at the background as to why? The Taylor Report had come out, Stadiums had to be improved, who was going to pay? I’d guess the Football Fan and without that change some Clubs may of gone under.

The so called “big 5” then also brought along 17 other Clubs in to the Premier League, didn’t want seperate competitions and increased relegation promotion with no one immune.

What they envisaged then to what we have now is beyond all recognition.

As I posted earlier, no doubt the ESL believed everyone would benefit from their seperation, but to me it was more than money, the formation of the PL was to benefit English football, not 9 other Clubs around Europe.

One further point, ( not aimed at you Tash) back in 18/19 when the charges against City for breaking the ffp system were brought, people also wanted City done for the legal loopholes they’d circumvented as well, so if it was ok to want to throw the book at them for that, I can understand people wanting action against the 6, even if proved they broke no rules.
		
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And as a result, compare how many different clubs won the league in the 28 years since, compared to the 28 before the premier league started.

The greed in football changed in intensity then, exacerbated by the "oily" ones since and everyone trying to play catch up.

I could go into all scenarios of punishment, but instead of punishment what about re-organisation instead, so that the money in the game is spread around better, which ultimately will be at the expense of the 6, as well as their owners in the long run (who were the ONLY protagonists).

If the punishment goes too far and hits the players and fans of the 6, maybe next time they wont campaign to overturn it and will think sod youse, we helped to stop it, and we're worse off!!!!!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			And as a result, compare how many different clubs won the league in the 28 years since, compared to the 28 before the premier league started.

The greed in football changed in intensity then, exacerbated by the "oily" ones since and everyone trying to play catch up.

I could go into all scenarios of punishment, but instead of punishment what about re-organisation instead, so that the money in the game is spread around better, which ultimately will be at the expense of the 6, as well as their owners in the long run (who were the ONLY protagonists).

If the punishment goes too far and hits the players and fans of the 6, maybe next time they wont campaign to overturn it and will think sod youse, we helped to stop it, and we're worse off!!!!!!!
		
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I don’t agree with points docked or bans, said earlier this week, fine the owners and give the money to lower leagues or charity, that’s enough for me.

I do like the idea of re-organisation though.


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## Sweep (Apr 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s something about this whole super league business that has me puzzled.
12 teams were competing, another 6 had said nope. Big banks in the USA were involved. People who were employed by UEFA were involved. And yet at no point did anyone whistleblow. Even the teams that were against it. No one said a dicky bird. We had an inkling the greedy clubs were up to a dastardly deed. But no one had any idea re what and when this failed league was going to start. A lot of people knew what was being planned and yet not a whisper. Why? Was it really that well planned and secretive. If any of the red tops had a sniff of this they would of been like flies round a day old turd. How they managed to keep it so quiet is beyond me.
		
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That’s a very good point Tash and you know, I don’t think any of them thought there would be such a backlash. People only whisper secretly about secrets. If no-one in the know thought it was such a big deal they probably didn’t think there was much to be gained by breaking a confidentiality clause.
If you read my first post at the start of this thread you will see that I was puzzled by the strength of the reaction. I understand more now, but I guess I am still just more accepting of the big money in the game than the average fan. So, I can see why the owners were surprised but at the same time they shouldn’t have put themselves and their clubs in that position. It’s their job to understand these things and they singularly failed to understand their own businesses. And that’s a pretty big error to make.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

Sweep said:



			That’s a very good point Tash and you know, I don’t think any of them thought there would be such a backlash. People only whisper secretly about secrets. If no-one in the know thought it was such a big deal they probably didn’t think there was much to be gained by breaking a confidentiality clause.
If you read my first post at the start of this thread you will see that I was puzzled by the strength of the reaction. I understand more now, but I guess I am still just more accepting of the big money in the game than the average fan. So, I can see why the owners were surprised but at the same time they shouldn’t have put themselves and their clubs in that position. It’s their job to understand these things and they singularly failed to understand their own businesses. And that’s a pretty big error to make.
		
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The bit I could not understand from Citys point of view. Why was Pep not kept in the loop. If I was him I would be bloody livid. His gaffers are supposed to be friends. He would of told City point blank to shove it. I think there  could be one or two fall outs re this League that may have more damaging consequences than point deduction and penalties etc.


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## Billysboots (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
		
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You’re such a tease 😉


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## Billysboots (Apr 23, 2021)

https://www.skysports.com/share/12284902

A measured, sensible starting point. And in addition to the 14 other clubs wanting this, the fans of the “Big Six” would be positively delighted if this was to happen.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It is a simplistic view as you say and one I don’t agree with, but I can understand it, City were to face a ban from the CL, not the PL, so in affect UEFA were once again doing nothing for the PL. FFP is all about European Comps.
		
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No its bloody not, where did you get that from. FFP was also a premiership system.

It was also managed totally wrong by both.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

Am just finding it a bit odd that owners of the 14 clubs are asking the chief execs to stand down as they don’t trust them. Fair enough but when you consider the troubles that some clubs have had in there own house thinking Sheff utd and Newcastle am not sure were going down the right avenue here.🤔


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So whilst a few English teams fans are moaning about the (rightly) dropped ESL plans, complaining about the money it would bring those in it, does anyone realise that every other league in UEFA is complaining about the money the PL teams have from their tv deals?
Every PL team is collectively guilty of exactly the same thing as those 6.

If the PL teams and fans are so concerned about the lower league teams, why did they vote down the Project Bug Picture that would have given the lower league teams a huge amount of money and support
		
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I have never received a voting paper, so where do you get the above from, and its not "a few" English teams fans, its the vast majority, both supporters of the 6 and all the others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 23, 2021)

Sky are really continuing to drag it - 3 channels showing “Football Civil “ - getting Neville back there again and all the insights blah blah blah - Sky are loving it 

Move on - time to move on and get back to the actual sport


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



https://www.skysports.com/share/12284902

A measured, sensible starting point. And in addition to the 14 other clubs wanting this, the fans of the “Big Six” would be positively delighted if this was to happen.
		
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I would say okay under normal circumstances, but if some of them chief execs genuinely didnt know about ESL or werent consulted (as has been espoused by some journalists), I dont think it would be fair if they are targeted when they werent involved in it, and was the owners only.

If they did know and were complicit, pass me the pitchfork.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe leave that decision to the other Clubs and let them vote on it, as at the moment everything is about money and there seems no way to punish them and just allow them to carry on as they want.

Maybe now is the time to press the reset button, all Clubs starting equal, less TV money, more help for the lower leagues, lower wages, lower ticket prices etc, almost taking 2 steps back to go 1 step forward.

Might take 10-15yrs to sort out, but if it’s for the best and secures the future of English Football then there has to be pain and the pain taken by everyone, just some take a bit more pain.
		
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Maybe DONT leave it to the other clubs, not only might they go too far, but should they be judge, jury and executioner?

You saw how West ham acted last year when it came down to null and void, due to their perilous relegation situation.

By all means involve them in the conversation, but the decision and findings shouldnt be carried out by them.

Say they said a 30 point deduction for the next 10 years for all 6? mad example, but I'm sorry, be careful what you wish for.

No matter, SOMETHING should be done, an apology isnt enough, sanctions will punish the wrong people, and justice meted out by "concerned parties" who can also benefit from it - Madness!!!!!

Think WW1  / Clemenceau / Treaty of Versailles  =  WW2, Hitler etc.

Restructure and re-organisation is whats needed -  UEFA being held to account more, better distribution of wealth, ticket prices, agents and their fees, World cup finals allocation, and finally a SALARY CAP will go a long way to helping everything. I would gues that 80% of the increased money in the game has gone players and agents. Great once the grounds needed rebuilding, but as that is more than 60-70% done, everything is now going to players wages, agents, hangers on and owners.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sky are really continuing to drag it - 3 channels showing “Football Civil “ - getting Neville back there again and all the insights blah blah blah - Sky are loving it

Move on - time to move on and get back to the actual sport
		
Click to expand...

Dont get me wrong there is some bollocks getting spouted on this Phil, but things need to settle down, then when calmer heads rule, SOMETHING still needs doing, it can't just be forgotten about with a an insincere apology (by some, not all).


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## fundy (Apr 23, 2021)

get Kroenke Out!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

fundy said:



			get Kroenke Out!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Agreed, anyone with a Tash that has its own postcode is a wrong 'un.


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## fundy (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Agreed, anyone with a Tash that has its own postcode is a wrong 'un.
		
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thats the least of his faults lol


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Dont get me wrong there is some bollocks getting spouted on this Phil, but things need to settle down, then when calmer heads rule, SOMETHING still needs doing, it can't just be forgotten about with a an insincere apology (by some, not all).
		
Click to expand...

Yep agree - but right now sky are still intent on keep opening up the wound to make it worse. 

It’s happened - the clubs pulled out , there will be something down with the clubs but the rules and regulations need to be changed. But I have no idea what they will try to bring in - certainly don’t trust the government or the Prem league or FA , so who sorts it out  

Hopefully they will also react towards racism with the same gusto and verve but I doubt it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			No its bloody not, where did you get that from. FFP was also a premiership system.

It was also managed totally wrong by both.
		
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When City were found guilty they were hit with a fine and a CL ban, charged by UEFA, no PL charges.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

The worst thing we can do now is think that UEFA, FIFA, the FA, Sky, BT, Boris Johnson and West ham are our saviours. God forbid.

We need to use this possible once in a lifetime opportunity to get the (sensible) fans involved more at board and association level domestically and internationally, as well as putting in place a salary cap., amongst many, many other things.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			When City were found guilty they were hit with a fine and a CL ban, charged by UEFA, no PL charges.
		
Click to expand...

And after the appeal the prem said they were waiting to see how that went with UEFA, but they bottled it.

Fining  trillionaires who overspend - yes, that'll show them!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			The worst thing we can do now is think that UEFA, FIFA, the FA, Sky, BT, Boris Johnson and West ham are our saviours. God forbid.

We need to use this possible once in a lifetime opportunity to get the (sensible) fans involved more at board and association level domestically and internationally, as well as putting in place a salary cap., amongst many, many other things.
		
Click to expand...

Salary cap has to be implemented at every single big league as well - also need agent fees looking at.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Maybe DONT leave it to the other clubs, not only might they go too far, but should they be judge, jury and executioner?

You saw how West ham acted last year when it came down to null and void, due to their perilous relegation situation.

By all means involve them in the conversation, but the decision and findings shouldnt be carried out by them.

Say they said a 30 point deduction for the next 10 years for all 6? mad example, but I'm sorry, be careful what you wish for.

No matter, SOMETHING should be done, an apology isnt enough, sanctions will punish the wrong people, and justice meted out by "concerned parties" who can also benefit from it - Madness!!!!!

Think WW1  / Clemenceau / Treaty of Versailles  =  WW2, Hitler etc.

Restructure and re-organisation is whats needed -  UEFA being held to account more, better distribution of wealth, ticket prices, agents and their fees, World cup finals allocation, and finally a SALARY CAP will go a long way to helping everything. I would gues that 80% of the increased money in the game has gone players and agents. Great once the grounds needed rebuilding, but as that is more than 60-70% done, everything is now going to players wages, agents, hangers on and owners.
		
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What I mean by leave it to the others Clubs is give them the choice over money, not bans etc, we keep hearing they’ll be better off, they’ll lose out, etc, so put it to them and see just how much money talks. 

Written badly by me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			And after the appeal the prem said they were waiting to see how that went with UEFA, but they bottled it.

Fining  trillionaires who overspend - yes, that'll show them!!!!
		
Click to expand...

So with City overturning the fine and CL ban on appeal with the CAS saying City did not breach ffp but did show blatant disregard, the PL will do nothing, they haven’t got a chance.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			The worst thing we can do now is think that UEFA, FIFA, the FA, Sky, BT, Boris Johnson and* West ham* are our saviours. God forbid.

We need to use this possible once in a lifetime opportunity to get the (sensible) fans involved more at board and association level domestically and internationally, as well as putting in place a salary cap., amongst many, many other things.
		
Click to expand...

Given the situation with the London Stadium, are West Ham in a position to lecture people on matters involving money?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45439883

Maybe there should only be 13 deciding...


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



https://www.skysports.com/share/12284902

A measured, sensible starting point. And in addition to the 14 other clubs wanting this, the fans of the “Big Six” would be positively delighted if this was to happen.
		
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It’s a starting point yes.
But even new execs are still employed by the owners.
They are the main problem imo.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given the situation with the London Stadium, are West Ham in a position to lecture people on matters involving money?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45439883

Maybe there should only be 13 deciding... 

Click to expand...

The article just proves what a great deal Brady got out of the government, it’s hardly West Ham’s fault if they were desperate. 😁

But since you brought the subject up it’s a good example of owners greed. (And incompetence) They sold UP for just £8.4M (then suspiciously the stadium was sold again for a far higher price 🤔) and overall match day takings are down £4M, so as a club we are no better off and the owners have alienated everyone because no one likes the stadium!


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## Sweep (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep agree - but right now sky are still intent on keep opening up the wound to make it worse.

It’s happened - the clubs pulled out , there will be something down with the clubs but the rules and regulations need to be changed. But I have no idea what they will try to bring in - certainly don’t trust the government or the Prem league or FA , so who sorts it out 

Hopefully they will also react towards racism with the same gusto and verve but I doubt it
		
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Sky are loving it for the obvious financial reasons but also because they came out so strongly against it right from the start. Now they are trying to set themselves up as the fans favourite. Neville is in overdrive.
One reporter claimed that the 6 owners were phoning all the other clubs to eat humble pie and apologise and it was falling on deaf ears (Arsenal say they have contacted the 14). And that the owners were attending training to apologise to the players and coaches and their pleas were met with anger and even laughter. Yeah right. The bloke who pays you 400k a week apologises to you and you laugh in his face.
Meanwhile, back in the real world...


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## Sweep (Apr 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Salary cap has to be implemented at every single big league as well - also need agent fees looking at.
		
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I agree. There is a problem though and it goes right to the heart of the entire matter.
Footballers have to be rich. It adds to the glamour and glamour sells. The owners know this and that’s why they would rather be playing Real Madrid than “Stoke on a wet Wednesday”. This isn’t just the case in football. Look at US sports in particular and that is the model they wanted. US Football, Baseball and Basketball stars earn massive, massive amounts. Fans want their shirts, Sony want them on their Play Station etc etc.
How many fans did George Best win for United? And many were not there for the football. Remember all the pictures of him and others like Rodney Marsh etc getting into E Types or Lotus Europa’s? Look at Pogba now with his online image that United themselves were selling until he fell out with Maureen. Let’s not even start on Beckham. If the ESL hierarchy are right and the young aren’t interested in football anymore, then it’s glamour, athleticism and skill that’s going to attract them. A bald bloke like Ralph Coates (Google him) committing to a studs up tackle in a mud bath at Burnley isn’t going to get them off their Play Stations. Simply put, if a player isn’t rich he isn’t good in their eyes.
Now I absolutely agree on a salary cap and they do have them in US sports, but the wages are still going to be eye watering and it’s the fans who pay for it all in the end.
John Barnes spoke a lot of sense. He said this wasn’t a victory for the fans at all. This was a battle for the money in the sport and the current system won this time. This was a battle for who had the right to fleece the fans. He said there was no chance wages would drop to reduce ticket prices and ultimately nothing would change.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem with this argument is that a club going into administration isn't the fault of the "players, managers or fans" but there is still a points deduction for it. "None of this is their doing". Almost every punishment that is dished out to clubs affects those groups, even if they weren't responsible for it. This to me smacks of hypocrisy from *some *fans of the big 6 clubs. All of a sudden you shouldn't punish the fans because of the actions of the clubs' owners. Where were those feelings when clubs such as Portsmouth were being deducted points because of what their owners' had done? It seems like double standards that all of a sudden the fans shouldn't be punished for the actions of the owners just because it's the big 6.
		
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Hypocrisy is abundant everywhere and with everyone on many of these subjects, but also is a lack of knowledge and understanding.

Portsmouth and Leeds to name just two, at least had "benefits" to what they did and their fans enjoyed an FA cup final win, or a great European cup run to the semis, or watched some of the best players them teams had seen. Yes, the clubs had massive financial problems after that and were always running the risk of sanction, due to this.

The 6 havent even had any benefits out of it (thank god), so totally different scenarios.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Hypocrisy is abundant everywhere and with everyone on many of these subjects, but also is a lack of knowledge and understanding.

Portsmouth and Leeds to name just two, at least had "benefits" to what they did and their fans enjoyed an FA cup final win, or a great European cup run to the semis, or watched some of the best players them teams had seen. Yes, the clubs had massive financial problems after that and were always running the risk of sanction, due to this.

The 6 havent even had any benefits out of it (thank god), so totally different scenarios.
		
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Yeah, starting League 1 on - 15 points was a massive benefit. 

You might have the benefit of getting rid of the owner many fans don't want.

I hope they throw the book at you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1385879862095777793
Anazing hypocrisy from the same person who wanted the league last year null and void when her team was in a relegation battle


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Yeah, starting League 1 on - 15 points was a massive benefit.

You might have the benefit of getting rid of the owner many fans don't want.

I hope they throw the book at you.
		
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What were your thoughts when Risdale and Co were overspending as the team was battling in the Champions League semi final and buying the likes of Ferdinand few record fees


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## Sweep (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What were your thoughts when Risdale and Co were overspending as the team was battling in the Champions League semi final and buying the likes of Ferdinand few record fees
		
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And therin  lies the problem and the Leeds scenario is the perfect example. Risdale gambled big time and it didn’t pay off. But if it had and they reached the CL final or even won it the financial benefits would have been huge and would have put Leeds on the map, including raising their awareness in other markets like the Far East. Sadly for them it went the other way but it could be argued they were a game or two from being one of the 6 today. However, it’s this kind of reward that encourages massive spending and it’s an upward (or downward) spiral. All clubs have to spend way over what they can afford just to stay still otherwise their rivals will outspend them. That’s why huge clubs like Madrid are so much in debt. The markets in football are way over inflated and it won’t stop until FFP becomes a lot stronger. Sadly it won’t and the powers that be won’t recognise the link between the ESL plans and FFP.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

FFP should be scrapped, it only helps keep certain Clubs at the top and creates a wider gulf between those already considered as UEFA Royalty.

The consortium who wish to buy Newcastle, why shouldn’t they be allowed to spend as much as they want as quick as they want?

1 reason, they become a threat to the establishment.

We all want success for our Clubs, just seems some “expect” to get it on their terms only at the expense of others!


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## BiMGuy (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What were your thoughts when Risdale and Co were overspending as the team was battling in the Champions League semi final and buying the likes of Ferdinand few record fees
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was madness. Rio was fine as he was a top player. Some of the other signings and spending was crazy


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2021)

*The Owner and Board of Chelsea Football Club would like to address Chelsea supporters about the events which have taken place over the past few days. We have taken time since withdrawing from the ESL to speak directly to various supporter groups and listen to their views and concerns.*

Our ambition with Chelsea Football Club has always been to make it the best club in the world, both on the pitch and in how we work with, and give back to the community off it.

The joint decision to join the ESL was driven by this same ambition. When it became clear that a new league might be formed, we did not want Chelsea FC to miss out on the opportunity to play in such a potentially prominent league, nor did we want to risk the Club falling behind our closest English and European rivals in competitive terms.

As a Club, we are committed to an open and regular dialogue with our fans and other stakeholders, but, on this occasion, regrettably, due to time constraints and confidentiality restraints, this was not achieved.

As concerns were raised following the announcement, the Club took a step back to listen and speak to supporters. Following those conversations and taking into account the extremely strong views against the proposal, we reassessed our initial decision and decided we did not want to be part of this league.

We also recognise the sentiment that had been expressed about whether the ESL relied strongly enough on sporting merit. This is something we had strong concerns about from the start and were confident would have been addressed during a further consultation process with various stakeholders, along with other concepts in the proposal about which we had reservations. We firmly believe that we must protect a structure which allows all clubs, players and supporters to dream of, and achieve, success.

We recognise we should have addressed these issues in advance of joining the group. The Owner and Board understand that involving the Club in such a proposal was a decision we should not have taken. It is a decision we deeply regret.

Another important factor in the decision to withdraw was the potential damage to the Club’s reputation and work on good causes. So much effort has gone into community work off the pitch over the last 17 years, and there was a risk that all of the Club’s efforts directed by the Owner on fighting racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other discriminatory behaviours would be lost. We could not afford to jeopardise the significant advances we have made in these areas, nor the vital and ongoing work of the Chelsea Foundation in other areas of our communities.

Chelsea Football Club is first and foremost a club rooted in tradition and community. We are also an ambitious club, and we have always strived to be the very best. In order to do that, we must constantly strive to improve and sometimes take risks.

We always welcome a debate about how we as a club develop and take on these new challenges. There needs to be room for disagreements, debates as well as mistakes, and we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and understand that we all have the best interest of the Club at heart. Mistakes are unavoidable, but it’s the ability to address those mistakes and jointly move forward which makes us strong as a club and community.

The Club always tries to be open and transparent with its supporters, and we remain committed to this in the future and will take actions to rebuild the trust of the supporters that we have enjoyed to this point. As such, the Club renews its commitment to listen to and engage with its supporters far better in future. The Board will lead consultations with supporter groups and other stakeholders on new mechanisms or structures that develop and safeguard fan representation in the Club’s work.

The Club does ask, however, that this dialogue is conducted in a respectful way. The abuse which some club representatives have been the target of over the past few days is not acceptable. Antisemitism, sexism, racism and threats of violence have no place in our community nor in this discussion. We hope that you will help us make sure that a respectful tone remains, even when we disagree.

Chelsea has a very rich history, and we know we are very fortunate to play a part in that. The Club was here before us, and will be here long after us. Our job is to ensure we are as successful as we can be today, as well as build for the future.

The Owner and Board thank you for your continued support for the Club.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Apr 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



*The Owner and Board of Chelsea Football Club would like to address Chelsea supporters about the events which have taken place over the past few days. We have taken time since withdrawing from the ESL to speak directly to various supporter groups and listen to their views and concerns.*

Our ambition with Chelsea Football Club has always been to make it the best club in the world, both on the pitch and in how we work with, and give back to the community off it.

*The joint decision to join the ESL was driven by this same ambition. When it became clear that a new league might be formed, we did not want Chelsea FC to miss out on the opportunity to play in such a potentially prominent league, nor did we want to risk the Club falling behind our closest English and European rivals in competitive terms.*

As a Club, we are committed to an open and regular dialogue with our fans and other stakeholders, but, on this occasion, regrettably, due to time constraints and confidentiality restraints, this was not achieved.

As concerns were raised following the announcement, the Club took a step back to listen and speak to supporters. Following those conversations and taking into account the extremely strong views against the proposal, we reassessed our initial decision and decided we did not want to be part of this league.

We also recognise the sentiment that had been expressed about whether the ESL relied strongly enough on sporting merit. This is something we had strong concerns about from the start and were confident would have been addressed during a further consultation process with various stakeholders, along with other concepts in the proposal about which we had reservations. We firmly believe that we must protect a structure which allows all clubs, players and supporters to dream of, and achieve, success.

We recognise we should have addressed these issues in advance of joining the group. The Owner and Board understand that involving the Club in such a proposal was a decision we should not have taken. It is a decision we deeply regret.

Another important factor in the decision to withdraw was the potential damage to the Club’s reputation and work on good causes. So much effort has gone into community work off the pitch over the last 17 years, and there was a risk that all of the Club’s efforts directed by the Owner on fighting racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other discriminatory behaviours would be lost. We could not afford to jeopardise the significant advances we have made in these areas, nor the vital and ongoing work of the Chelsea Foundation in other areas of our communities.

Chelsea Football Club is first and foremost a club rooted in tradition and community. We are also an ambitious club, and we have always strived to be the very best. In order to do that, we must constantly strive to improve and sometimes take risks.

We always welcome a debate about how we as a club develop and take on these new challenges. There needs to be room for disagreements, debates as well as mistakes, and we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and understand that we all have the best interest of the Club at heart. Mistakes are unavoidable, but it’s the ability to address those mistakes and jointly move forward which makes us strong as a club and community.

The Club always tries to be open and transparent with its supporters, and we remain committed to this in the future and will take actions to rebuild the trust of the supporters that we have enjoyed to this point. As such, the Club renews its commitment to listen to and engage with its supporters far better in future. The Board will lead consultations with supporter groups and other stakeholders on new mechanisms or structures that develop and safeguard fan representation in the Club’s work.

The Club does ask, however, that this dialogue is conducted in a respectful way. The abuse which some club representatives have been the target of over the past few days is not acceptable. Antisemitism, sexism, racism and threats of violence have no place in our community nor in this discussion. We hope that you will help us make sure that a respectful tone remains, even when we disagree.

Chelsea has a very rich history, and we know we are very fortunate to play a part in that. The Club was here before us, and will be here long after us. Our job is to ensure we are as successful as we can be today, as well as build for the future.

The Owner and Board thank you for your continued support for the Club.
		
Click to expand...


So they only joined because the other clubs were and presumably left for the same reason

Its good that the clubs have apologised, im sure that they hope that will be the end of the matter

However I think there is still some way to go before this episode is consigned to the history books


----------



## clubchamp98 (Apr 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



*The Owner and Board of Chelsea Football Club would like to address Chelsea supporters about the events which have taken place over the past few days. We have taken time since withdrawing from the ESL to speak directly to various supporter groups and listen to their views and concerns.*

Our ambition with Chelsea Football Club has always been to make it the best club in the world, both on the pitch and in how we work with, and give back to the community off it.

The joint decision to join the ESL was driven by this same ambition. When it became clear that a new league might be formed, we did not want Chelsea FC to miss out on the opportunity to play in such a potentially prominent league, nor did we want to risk the Club falling behind our closest English and European rivals in competitive terms.

As a Club, we are committed to an open and regular dialogue with our fans and other stakeholders, but, on this occasion, regrettably, due to time constraints and confidentiality restraints, this was not achieved.

As concerns were raised following the announcement, the Club took a step back to listen and speak to supporters. Following those conversations and taking into account the extremely strong views against the proposal, we reassessed our initial decision and decided we did not want to be part of this league.

We also recognise the sentiment that had been expressed about whether the ESL relied strongly enough on sporting merit. This is something we had strong concerns about from the start and were confident would have been addressed during a further consultation process with various stakeholders, along with other concepts in the proposal about which we had reservations. We firmly believe that we must protect a structure which allows all clubs, players and supporters to dream of, and achieve, success.

We recognise we should have addressed these issues in advance of joining the group. The Owner and Board understand that involving the Club in such a proposal was a decision we should not have taken. It is a decision we deeply regret.

Another important factor in the decision to withdraw was the potential damage to the Club’s reputation and work on good causes. So much effort has gone into community work off the pitch over the last 17 years, and there was a risk that all of the Club’s efforts directed by the Owner on fighting racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other discriminatory behaviours would be lost. We could not afford to jeopardise the significant advances we have made in these areas, nor the vital and ongoing work of the Chelsea Foundation in other areas of our communities.

Chelsea Football Club is first and foremost a club rooted in tradition and community. We are also an ambitious club, and we have always strived to be the very best. In order to do that, we must constantly strive to improve and sometimes take risks.

We always welcome a debate about how we as a club develop and take on these new challenges. There needs to be room for disagreements, debates as well as mistakes, and we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and understand that we all have the best interest of the Club at heart. Mistakes are unavoidable, but it’s the ability to address those mistakes and jointly move forward which makes us strong as a club and community.

The Club always tries to be open and transparent with its supporters, and we remain committed to this in the future and will take actions to rebuild the trust of the supporters that we have enjoyed to this point. As such, the Club renews its commitment to listen to and engage with its supporters far better in future. The Board will lead consultations with supporter groups and other stakeholders on new mechanisms or structures that develop and safeguard fan representation in the Club’s work.

The Club does ask, however, that this dialogue is conducted in a respectful way. The abuse which some club representatives have been the target of over the past few days is not acceptable. Antisemitism, sexism, racism and threats of violence have no place in our community nor in this discussion. We hope that you will help us make sure that a respectful tone remains, even when we disagree.

Chelsea has a very rich history, and we know we are very fortunate to play a part in that. The Club was here before us, and will be here long after us. Our job is to ensure we are as successful as we can be today, as well as build for the future.

The Owner and Board thank you for your continued support for the Club.
		
Click to expand...

Re the bold bit.
It’s a pity clubs didn’t do that before instead of after the fact.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Re the bold bit.
It’s a pity clubs didn’t do that before instead of after the fact.
		
Click to expand...

4th paragraph; As a Club, we are committed to an open and regular dialogue with our fans and other stakeholders, but, on this occasion,* regrettably, due to time constraints and confidentiality restraints*, this was not achieved.

Would you discuss this with fans representatives if there's a confidentiality clause?  I wouldn't.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2021)

When it comes to football matters I find it quite hilarious that the EPL and UEFA can claim higher moral status over absolutely anything.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			The worst thing we can do now is think that UEFA, FIFA, the FA, Sky, BT, *Boris Johnson *and West ham are our saviours. God forbid.

We need to use this possible once in a lifetime opportunity to get the (sensible) fans involved more at board and association level domestically and internationally, as well as putting in place a salary cap., amongst many, many other things.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that Boris Johnson was espousing why English football clubs shouldn't leave an established European set-up to strike out on their own on the promise of greater things, and that he would do everything to stop it.  One might say that his was the first U turn in this caper...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1385920028164435968


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Yeah, starting League 1 on - 15 points was a massive benefit.

You might have the benefit of getting rid of the owner many fans don't want.

I hope they throw the book at you.
		
Click to expand...

Go for it, if you're that bitter.

I didnt make the decision, neither did my club.

I bet you enjoyed the run to the semis of the CL at the time, with one of the best Leeds side ever. Again, not the Leeds fans fault but your run would be every fans European tour dream - didnt you play at the Bernabeu, San Siro and possibly a few more of the European cathedrals? Every away fans bucket list. You could only dream of seeing your team at them stadiums in a lifetime, never mind one season.

Hows the Koi carp doing?


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Interesting that Boris Johnson was espousing why English football clubs shouldn't leave an established European set-up to strike out on their own on the promise of greater things, and that he would do everything to stop it.  One might say that his was the first U turn in this caper...  

Click to expand...

Bang on, mate.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			FFP should be scrapped, it only helps keep certain Clubs at the top and creates a wider gulf between those already considered as UEFA Royalty.

The consortium who wish to buy Newcastle, why shouldn’t they be allowed to spend as much as they want as quick as they want?

1 reason, they become a threat to the establishment.

We all want success for our Clubs, just seems some “expect” to get it on their terms only at the expense of others!
		
Click to expand...

Do you ever think an argument through to the next stage, or just the first stage?

How many EC/CL have Arsenal, Spurs, City and Chelsea won - the same amount as Villa. 

Its been covered before, but if you want a billionaire turning any club into prem winners or CL winners by spending 3 billion, its no longer a sport. 

You want meritocracy one minute then outspending winning everything the next. Is it because you now have an official billionaire in tow, backed up by another one now, perhaps?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Do you ever think an argument through to the next stage, or just the first stage?

How many EC/CL have Arsenal, Spurs, City and Chelsea won - the same amount as Villa.

Its been covered before, but if you want a billionaire turning any club into prem winners or CL winners by spending 3 billion, its no longer a sport.

You want meritocracy one minute then outspending winning everything the next. Is it because you now have an official billionaire in tow, backed up by another one now, perhaps?
		
Click to expand...

Different opinions are allowed and not everything is an argument!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Different opinions are allowed and not everything is an argument!
		
Click to expand...

Yep they are, still havent answered the points raised, though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yep they are, still havent answered the points raised, though.
		
Click to expand...

The only people we ever see whine on here about ffp are Lpool and Utd fans, but well done in playing the poster and not the post.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The only people we ever see whine on here about ffp are Lpool and Utd fans, but well done in playing the poster and not the post.

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You missed out Arsenal fans, also. 

If you look back 24 hours, many likes for your posts, a few not, so doesnt back your opinion up.

Do you want a sport were cash outstrips everything else, or just when it stops your big rivals winning trophies? Maybe its a lot more acceptable then for some.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 24, 2021)

Perez from Real Madrid saying that all the club's have legally binding contracts and can't just leave the ESL. I don't think this is going away any time soon and can see some court cases in the offing. 

I wonder if the reason that Madrid and Barca haven't said they're leaving is because any compensation gets paid to the teams remaining in the competition. I've seen figures up to €100 million in compensation being mentioned if a team leaves. That would sort out a lot of the Spanish clubs debts if the others all had to pay them that sort of money.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			You missed out Arsenal fans, also.

If you look back 24 hours, many likes for your posts, a few not, so doesnt back your opinion up.

Do you want a sport were cash outstrips everything else, or just when it stops your big rivals winning trophies? Maybe its a lot more acceptable then for some. 

Click to expand...

I don’t post as part of a popularity contest.

The sad fact is it’s more a business than a sport these days and the only way some Clubs could even attempt to catch up to the big boys is by spending money, the days of Clubs having a 10 or even 5 year plan are long gone, so unless you want the big Clubs hit with a spend limit until the others catch up then we’ll always have at least 3 mini leagues within the PL.

As for my opinion coming from being a blue, it’s quite the opposite, if ever there’s an example of how not to spend money, it’s us!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t post as part of a popularity contest.

The sad fact is it’s more a business than a sport these days and the only way some Clubs could even attempt to catch up to the big boys is by spending money, the days of Clubs having a 10 or even 5 year plan are long gone, so unless you want the big Clubs hit with a spend limit until the others catch up then we’ll always have at least 3 mini leagues within the PL.

As for my opinion coming from being a blue, it’s quite the opposite, if ever there’s an example of how not to spend money, it’s us!
		
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Well get it back to more being a sport then, isnt that the answer, rather than giving sports washing oil countries carte blanche to carry on destroying our sport?

You pick your path, I'll pick mine, even if unlikely. OR spread the wealth better. Thats my two.

If yours is let our clubs get taken over by billionaires or countries as playthings then see who wins the most by spending the most, go for your life. Even if you dont "excusing" it is just as bad.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Well get it back to more being a sport then, isnt that the answer, rather than giving sports washing oil countries carte blanche to carry on destroying our sport?

You pick your path, I'll pick mine, even if unlikely. OR spread the wealth better. Thats my two.

If yours is let our clubs get taken over by billionaires or countries as playthings then see who wins the most by spending the most, go for your life. Even if you dont "excusing" it is just as bad.
		
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I’d love it to go back to being a sport, but tell me, how do we make the “playing field” level so that in the short term 18 Clubs have a chance of winning the PL.

This week and project big picture shows the lengths the big clubs will go to to protect themselves and until they are brought in to line then, imo, the gloves should be off.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d love it to go back to being a sport, but tell me, how do we make the “playing field” level so that in the short term 18 Clubs have a chance of winning the PL.

This week and project big picture shows the lengths the big clubs will go to to protect themselves and until they are brought in to line then, imo, the gloves should be off.
		
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Ive gone into a lot of detail before, but the CL money should be spread around the other 17 teams in the prem (not the 3 that go down that season) amongst other things. Also massively increase the Europa league purse.

4 English teams generate 200 mill - best performer out the 4 gets 40 mill, 2nd best 30 mill, 18 mill, 12 mill for example.

2-4 other in the Europa earn their money, similar to above.

The rest share a fund of what is left, BUT Europe has to do the same, in the same vein.

What's yours?


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## BiMGuy (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Go for it, if you're that bitter.

I didnt make the decision, neither did my club.

I bet you enjoyed the run to the semis of the CL at the time, with one of the best Leeds side ever. Again, not the Leeds fans fault but your run would be every fans European tour dream - didnt you play at the Bernabeu, San Siro and possibly a few more of the European cathedrals? Every away fans bucket list. You could only dream of seeing your team at them stadiums in a lifetime, never mind one season.

Hows the Koi carp doing?
		
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I'm not bitter. There have been highs and lows in the last 16/17 years, and that is part of the fabric of football. The situation is entirely different to what the ESL clubs attempted and comparing the 2 is just deflection. We overspent chasing glory,and suffered. 

If Liverpool weren't involved in the ESL, their fans would be screaming for punishment. But as they were, we should just sweep it under the carpet and let it go. 

They were tropical fish by the way.


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



*The Owner and Board of Chelsea Football Club would like to address Chelsea supporters about the events which have taken place over the past few days. We have taken time since withdrawing from the ESL to speak directly to various supporter groups and listen to their views and concerns.*

Our ambition with Chelsea Football Club has always been to make it the best club in the world, both on the pitch and in how we work with, and give back to the community off it.

The joint decision to join the ESL was driven by this same ambition. When it became clear that a new league might be formed, we did not want Chelsea FC to miss out on the opportunity to play in such a potentially prominent league, nor did we want to risk the Club falling behind our closest English and European rivals in competitive terms.

As a Club, we are committed to an open and regular dialogue with our fans and other stakeholders, but, on this occasion, regrettably, due to time constraints and confidentiality restraints, this was not achieved.

As concerns were raised following the announcement, the Club took a step back to listen and speak to supporters. Following those conversations and taking into account the extremely strong views against the proposal, we reassessed our initial decision and decided we did not want to be part of this league.

We also recognise the sentiment that had been expressed about whether the ESL relied strongly enough on sporting merit. This is something we had strong concerns about from the start and were confident would have been addressed during a further consultation process with various stakeholders, along with other concepts in the proposal about which we had reservations. We firmly believe that we must protect a structure which allows all clubs, players and supporters to dream of, and achieve, success.

We recognise we should have addressed these issues in advance of joining the group. The Owner and Board understand that involving the Club in such a proposal was a decision we should not have taken. It is a decision we deeply regret.

Another important factor in the decision to withdraw was the potential damage to the Club’s reputation and work on good causes. So much effort has gone into community work off the pitch over the last 17 years, and there was a risk that all of the Club’s efforts directed by the Owner on fighting racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other discriminatory behaviours would be lost. We could not afford to jeopardise the significant advances we have made in these areas, nor the vital and ongoing work of the Chelsea Foundation in other areas of our communities.

Chelsea Football Club is first and foremost a club rooted in tradition and community. We are also an ambitious club, and we have always strived to be the very best. In order to do that, we must constantly strive to improve and sometimes take risks.

We always welcome a debate about how we as a club develop and take on these new challenges. There needs to be room for disagreements, debates as well as mistakes, and we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and understand that we all have the best interest of the Club at heart. Mistakes are unavoidable, but it’s the ability to address those mistakes and jointly move forward which makes us strong as a club and community.

The Club always tries to be open and transparent with its supporters, and we remain committed to this in the future and will take actions to rebuild the trust of the supporters that we have enjoyed to this point. As such, the Club renews its commitment to listen to and engage with its supporters far better in future. The Board will lead consultations with supporter groups and other stakeholders on new mechanisms or structures that develop and safeguard fan representation in the Club’s work.

The Club does ask, however, that this dialogue is conducted in a respectful way. The abuse which some club representatives have been the target of over the past few days is not acceptable. Antisemitism, sexism, racism and threats of violence have no place in our community nor in this discussion. We hope that you will help us make sure that a respectful tone remains, even when we disagree.

Chelsea has a very rich history, and we know we are very fortunate to play a part in that. The Club was here before us, and will be here long after us. Our job is to ensure we are as successful as we can be today, as well as build for the future.

The Owner and Board thank you for your continued support for the Club.
		
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A very decent apology but as part of the dialogue they speak of I would ask them a few questions. Why did it take the supporters, i.e. the non-expert business owners to recognise how bad the ESL was for football as a whole in hours, whereas the club has had a lot longer to analyse the impact? Who decided that the ESL was the way forward for the club, bearing in mind the club's current commitments to the CL, Prem League, FA Cup and Carabao Cup? Who didn't recognise that the club would have been held as a paragon of virtue rather than a greedy, uncaring business if it had openly decried the ESL project?

No doubt there's a whole host of far better, intelligent, questions that need answering. I just hope the club also recognises that and doesn't assume that the (fancy) apology isn't the end of the matter.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I'm not bitter. There have been highs and lows in the last 16/17 years, and that is part of the fabric of football. The situation is entirely different to what the ESL clubs attempted and comparing the 2 is just deflection. We overspent chasing glory,and suffered.

If Liverpool weren't involved in the ESL, their fans would be screaming for punishment. But as they were, we should just sweep it under the carpet and let it go.

They were tropical fish by the way.
		
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I havent said sweep it under the carpet and let it go. Ive said something should be done. Where do you get this from. All we have said is punish the right people, or, mainly, re-organise or restructure, so think you are  making stuff up there.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Ive gone into a lot of detail before, but the CL money should be spread around the other 17 teams in the prem (not the 3 that go down that season) amongst other things. Also massively increase the Europa league purse.

4 English teams generate 200 mill - best performer out the 4 gets 40 mill, 2nd best 30 mill, 18 mill, 12 mill for example.

2-4 other in the Europa earn their money, similar to above.

The rest share a fund of what is left, BUT Europe has to do the same, in the same vein.

What's yours?
		
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Like I previously stated we need to reset the whole league but we can’t, I genuinely feel for Norwich and Watford who coming up and know that with a few more Clubs they are in a relegation battle next season before this one has ended, Yes, one may have an oustanding season and challenge top 8, but that’s the limit.

How long until we get back to a competitive league or as an example, without a sugar daddy what would be the chances of, say, Sunderland getting from Div 1 to the PL and challenge for top 4?

Sadly, until a few billionaires walk away nothing will change and we face the scenario of the richest dominating for years to come


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Like I previously stated we need to reset the whole league but we can’t, I genuinely feel for Norwich and Watford who coming up and know that with a few more Clubs they are in a relegation battle next season before this one has ended, Yes, one may have an oustanding season and challenge top 8, but that’s the limit.

How long until we get back to a competitive league or as an example, without a sugar daddy what would be the chances of, say, Sunderland getting from Div 1 to the PL and challenge for top 4?

Sadly, until a few billionaires walk away nothing will change and we face the scenario of the richest dominating for years to come
		
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So what does re-setting the league involve, be more specific, or it looks like hoping for the best or it being biggest owner wins.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			4th paragraph; As a Club, we are committed to an open and regular dialogue with our fans and other stakeholders, but, on this occasion,* regrettably, due to time constraints and confidentiality restraints*, this was not achieved.

Would you discuss this with fans representatives if there's a confidentiality clause?  I wouldn't.
		
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No but who put the clause in ?
I thought the clubs themselves were in charge.
There must be a mister big.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Perez from Real Madrid saying that all the club's have legally binding contracts and can't just leave the ESL. I don't think this is going away any time soon and can see some court cases in the offing.

I wonder if the reason that Madrid and Barca haven't said they're leaving is because any compensation gets paid to the teams remaining in the competition. I've seen figures up to €100 million in compensation being mentioned if a team leaves. That would sort out a lot of the Spanish clubs debts if the others all had to pay them that sort of money.
		
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Jeez what were the lawyers in these six clubs doing?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			No but *who put the clause in *?
I thought the clubs themselves were in charge.
There must be a mister big.
		
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JP Morgan I'd imagine; given that Real, Barca and Juve can't find a pot to pee in between them, and the sums supposedly involved, it had to be the money man.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Jeez what were the lawyers in these six clubs doing?
		
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I suspect Perez is doing what Perez does - ranting and finger pointing to save face. They were desperate for this because it gave them much needed funds

It’s is noticeable that the three clubs still in have over the past 5 years or more had to pay a lot of wages and bonuses to two certain players 

Both commanded huge wages that most clubs would find unsustainable


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I suspect Perez is doing what Perez does - ranting and finger pointing to save face. They were desperate for this because it gave them much needed funds
		
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Yes I do see that .
But the clause should have rung alarm bells to ,let’s face it the very top businessmen in the clubs.
Or have the lawyers been out of the loop as well.
They must have scrutinised the PL rules as well.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Jeez what were the lawyers in these six clubs doing?
		
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Interestingly, Sky kept using a comment along the lines of 'City are putting into motion the process of withdrawing from the ESL' which suggests that the possibility of clubs leaving had been foreseen, although possibly not this early.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Interestingly, Sky kept using a comment along the lines of 'City are putting into motion the process of withdrawing from the ESL' which suggests that the possibility of clubs leaving had been foreseen, although possibly not this early.
		
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Something changed imo.
These hard nosed money men owners would not give in so easy to the fans making some noise.
There must be another reason they gave in so quickly imo.


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Something changed imo.
These hard nosed money men owners would not give in so easy to the fans making some noise.
There must be another reason they gave in so quickly imo.
		
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Maybe they were hoping not to lose access to the CL and Europa League. Maybe the clubs didn't believe ESL had the potential for a long life... who knows...


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe they were hoping not to lose access to the CL and Europa League. Maybe the clubs didn't believe ESL had the potential for a long life... who knows...
		
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I think they viewed the ESL as the alternative to the CL, not in addition to.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe they were hoping not to lose access to the CL and Europa League. Maybe the clubs didn't believe ESL had the potential for a long life... who knows...
		
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They were right about the latter.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			So what does re-setting the league involve, be more specific, or it looks like hoping for the best or it being biggest owner wins.
		
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Resetting to me would be limit transfer spend to a level all Clubs could afford, ie, you get £75 million for the season, so a Club could by one player for £75mil or 3 at £25mil etc, wages limit, ie max £25K a week, but players can get bonus’s for being an international or finishing position in League, but again limited.

PL Clubs to “adopt” a lower league club, providing support with facilities or coaching etc

TV contracts to be combined then spread equally by League.

All above is pie in the sky and will never happen, but in all honesty is that any different to your idea.

At the moment we have the big owners win  anyway. I mentioned Newcastle the other night, it has been winding some of their fans up here since last summer when Amanda Staveley said the take over had been blocked by the big 6, why would they? What did they inparticular have to fear? Now we know they were plotting the ESL, the question has to be asked if their objection was more about the risk to them.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Resetting to me would be limit transfer spend to a level all Clubs could afford, ie, you get £75 million for the season, so a Club could by one player for £75mil or 3 at £25mil etc, wages limit, ie max £25K a week, but players can get bonus’s for being an international or finishing position in League, but again limited.

PL Clubs to “adopt” a lower league club, providing support with facilities or coaching etc

TV contracts to be combined then spread equally by League.

All above is pie in the sky and will never happen, but in all honesty is that any different to your idea.

At the moment we have the big owners win  anyway. I mentioned Newcastle the other night, it has been winding some of their fans up here since last summer when Amanda Staveley said the take over had been blocked by the big 6, why would they? What did they inparticular have to fear? Now we know they were plotting the ESL, the question has to be asked if their objection was more about the risk to them.
		
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Your right, none of this can happen unless the world of football adopt the same pricing structure because whatever the players say about the PL they will go where the money is.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Resetting to me would be limit transfer spend to a level all Clubs could afford, ie, you get £75 million for the season, so a Club could by one player for £75mil or 3 at £25mil etc, wages limit, ie max £25K a week, but players can get bonus’s for being an international or finishing position in League, but again limited.

PL Clubs to “adopt” a lower league club, providing support with facilities or coaching etc

TV contracts to be combined then spread equally by League.

All above is pie in the sky and will never happen, but in all honesty is that any different to your idea.

At the moment we have the big owners win  anyway. I mentioned Newcastle the other night, it has been winding some of their fans up here since last summer when Amanda Staveley said the take over had been blocked by the big 6, why would they? What did they inparticular have to fear? Now we know they were plotting the ESL, the question has to be asked if their objection was more about the risk to them.
		
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I do think that individual clubs should be able to have some financial advantage, if you have a bigger support or a higher profile, but it should be limited more than it is now. I think a salary cap will benefit all throughout football (except the players as much, but even if we limited it to £100,000 a week, thats more than enough for someone to survive, as well as still having a hefty pension). What the player earns outside of his club wages is up to him. 

I think a new owner should be able to invest in the infrastructure of his club - stadium, training ground and other facilities, but excessive team investment should be limited a lot more than what it is now. Maybe you can invest above a certain amount, but limited to 2 or 3 years and linked to club turnover - not the backhanded way city acquired excessive sponsorship by owner's brothers etc


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I do think that individual clubs should be able to have some financial advantage, if you have a bigger support or a higher profile, but it should be limited more than it is now. I think a salary cap will benefit all throughout football (except the players as much, but even if we limited it to £100,000 a week, thats more than enough for someone to survive, as well as still having a hefty pension). What the player earns outside of his club wages is up to him.

I think a new owner should be able to invest in the infrastructure of his club - stadium, training ground and other facilities, but excessive team investment should be limited a lot more than what it is now. Maybe you can invest above a certain amount, but limited to 2 or 3 years and linked to club turnover - not the backhanded way city acquired excessive sponsorship by owner's brothers etc
		
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I can see the point about support, but I do have a minor issue with profile, ie, how long should a Club “live” of its profile? Look at Utd in the 70’s & 80’s by their standard a rough period and included a relegation, they would probably of still had a large profile worldwide, would it of been fair for them to benefit from having that.

How many years have we gone without a trophy but still have a higher profile than some Clubs who have been succesful during the same period.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I can see the point about support, but I do have a minor issue with profile, ie, how long should a Club “live” of its profile? Look at Utd in the 70’s & 80’s by their standard a rough period and included a relegation, they would probably of still had a large profile worldwide, would it of been fair for them to benefit from having that.

How many years have we gone without a trophy but still have a higher profile than some Clubs who have been succesful during the same period.
		
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I dont get your point?

Its not I'm saying that the premier league give you more money if your have a higher profile, but if you self-generate large attendances, good sponsorship deals, shirt deals etc you should get to enjoy that money.

If Everton sell out BM and then upgrade it to 60K, enjoy the extra income, unless you think that half that money should go to, say Palace, who only play in front of 20K plus - to me thats going too far.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I dont get your point?

Its not I'm saying that the premier league give you more money if your have a higher profile, but if you self-generate large attendances, good sponsorship deals, shirt deals etc you should get to enjoy that money.

If Everton sell out BM and then upgrade it to 60K, enjoy the extra income, unless you think that half that money should go to, say Palace, who only play in front of 20K plus - to me thats going too far.
		
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Apologies, long day, I read profile as similar to what the CL are doing, given teams credit for their history, hence only agreeing about support.

It’ll be impossible as you say to level everything, but could possibly limit what the extra revenue could be spent on as there’s no way a Bmouth or similar could compete with a Man Utd etc.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Apologies, long day, I read profile as similar to what the CL are doing, given teams credit for their history, hence only agreeing about support.

It’ll be impossible as you say to level everything, but could possibly limit what the extra revenue could be spent on as there’s no way a Bmouth or similar could compete with a Man Utd etc.
		
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Agreed, top teams shouldnt get a free pass at anything, and one of the "saviours of football - Uefa, are now putting this in as an option for the new format for the CL. Its wrong.

Level up some of it, not all.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2021)

OOI....... Are any clubs in the top two English leagues fan owned ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOI....... Are any clubs in the top two English leagues fan owned ?
		
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It would not be financially viable for that to happen. The turnover to run a club at those levels is scary. It sounds a great idea but the practicalities of it is unrealistic.

Edit, just for interest I googled the turnover of Luton Town, pretty unglamorous club, not one of the biggies in the championship. £8.2m in 2020. Derby county, £30m. I've avoided clubs getting parachute payments. Go up to the PL and you can add £120m to those figures, Watford's turnover in 2019 was £148m for example, again deliberately not choosing a 'big' club.

Turnover doesn't equal value of course but locals having a whip round isn't going to cut it at that level.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 25, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOI....... Are any clubs in the top two English leagues fan owned ?
		
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Wycombe might still be owned by fans but it’s an unrealistic model within the premier league and championship 

There is a far too big level of finances available to fans to own those level of clubs 

We will never get to a stage where fans own clubs or even the german model ( which is full of holes and one club dominates ) but you would hope that fans groups within all the clubs are involved significantly 

But there is a lot that needs to be sorted out within the game 

Racism and social media attacks - if only there was the same reaction from the governing bodies but I guess someone being abused online doesn’t affect the income to UEFA

Money filtering down 

Clubs want to get into the CL - not to win it mainly not to get the level of money that comes with that , that money needs to distributed a little more

The Pyramid- lots of talk about protecting the pyramid but did the Prem clubs help out the likes of Bury or any league club during the pandemic - nope they spent around £1bn on players

The whole week has been full of hypocrisy from many angles and indeed clubs 

The fans have been together but will they be happy when it comes to the summer and their club isn’t signing big money players because the money is more evenly distributed around ? We will see


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## rudebhoy (Apr 25, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It would not be financially viable for that to happen. The turnover to run a club at those levels is scary. It sounds a great idea but the practicalities of it is unrealistic.

Edit, just for interest I googled the turnover of Luton Town, pretty unglamorous club, not one of the biggies in the championship. £8.2m in 2020. Derby county, £30m. I've avoided clubs getting parachute payments. Go up to the PL and you can add £120m to those figures, Watford's turnover in 2019 was £148m for example, again deliberately not choosing a 'big' club.

Turnover doesn't equal value of course but locals having a whip round isn't going to cut it at that level.
		
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Bayern are 75% fan owned and seem to be doing OK.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wycombe might still be owned by fans but it’s an unrealistic model within the premier league and championship
		
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Incorrect , as of Feb 2020 the American Businessman Rob Couhig owns a majority shareholding with him and his 2 sons making up 3 of the 5 directors.

but they were fan owned for several years


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 25, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Bayern are 75% fan owned and seem to be doing OK.
		
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It’s a lot more complicated than that - members own one of the companies that hold a stake in the whole sports franchise with Adidas and other companies

The company which owns 75% has about 3000 members I believe it is

They also do ok because of the huge levels of revenues they attract


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Bayern are 75% fan owned and seem to be doing OK.
		
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It's slightly simplistic. Can you imagine what it would cost each fan if you started that today? 

Burnley were sold at the end of 2020 in a deal worth approx £200m. That's Burnley with limited commercial possibilities. How are fans going to buy into that?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 25, 2021)

The link below is a decent article on the German/Bayern set up and how and why it evolved.

https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...many-english-fans-european-super-league-clubs


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2021)

Clubs currently have debts that need servicing. If income is limited, e.g. every club got an equal share of Sky money, some will go bust. But if you have an end goal of equal shares and limited spending, give the clubs a 5(?) year time frame to achieve a different business model.

Transfer spending; I'd be tempted to limit it to £XXX million, but also limit it to 3 players bought a season. If one club wants to blow its £100m on one player, crack on. But if the transfer limit is £100m and 3 players, another club might buy 1 player at £40m and 2 players at £30m.

Salaries; similarly I'd go for a club limit based on income. If a club wants to pay x player £500k a week, crack on. But if their weekly salary limit is £5m, they've got £4.5m to spread across the rest of the squad.

Owners wanting to invest in a club; make it a multiple of the club's income. No more fairy tale sugar daddies buying a club for pennies and throwing £500m at the transfer budget. But if the new owner wants to throw £500m at a new stadium, why not. If the new owner is looking to 'loan' a club money, the loan must be serviceable by its current income, and the loan doesn't have an instant clawback clause if the owner sells up.

There's wiser men than us that could put together a better plan but it needs to be at least Europe wide - imagine if it only applied to the football in the UK, and Europe continued with its mega spending = no more British clubs winning the CL.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2021)

Surprised to see Wycombe as a English Championship team, is it their first season [straight up/down.]
Motherwell and Hearts [any day now for ownership and membership] are two Scottish Premier teams in fan ownership.
Looks like it is working quite well for the two teams. Hearts fans are contributing £120k a month under their pledge scheme.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 25, 2021)

From Juve's website;

https://www.juvefc.com/uefa-makes-a-decision-on-real-madrid-and-juventus-for-leading-esl-effort/


The UEFA Executive Committee has decided against sanctioning Juventus and Real Madrid for their leadership role in the suspended European Super League.

Both teams led 10 other teams to form the new competition last Sunday, but 48 hours later the English clubs began to pull out of the agreement and it eventually collapsed.


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2021)

My club was fan owned until this year, not easy even at our lowly level.

Anyway, now fans are “back in control”  can we insist that (unless colours clash) teams go back to wearing their old normal colours.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 25, 2021)

I heard Jamie Redknapp channeling his inner Gary Neville after the Carabao Cup Final.  Much as some of Neville's ranting annoyed me, he obviously put a degree more thought into it than Neville.  Interesting to hear Jamie having a go at the owners for lining their pockets at fans' expense, especially after receiving an email from the club confirming that my season ticket will be the same price as it was in 2011-12.  Thank you Roman.  

Wonder if any of these owners have a bank account in their dog's name...


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I heard Jamie Redknapp channeling his inner Gary Neville after the Carabao Cup Final.  Much as some of Neville's ranting annoyed me, he obviously put a degree more thought into it than Neville.  Interesting to hear Jamie having a go at the owners for lining their pockets at fans' expense, especially after receiving an email from the club confirming that my season ticket will be the same price as it was in 2011-12.  Thank you Roman. 

Wonder if any of these owners have a bank account in their dog's name... 

Click to expand...

Bet you Fido Abramovitc has a few Bob.
Can’t blame him for his dad taking the piss.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 25, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Bet you Fido Abramovitc has a few Bob.
Can’t blame him for his dad taking the piss.

Click to expand...

No I can't blame him because apparently 'Arry was innocent... 

But I still find it laughable.


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## fundy (Apr 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



*No I can't blame him because apparently 'Arry was innocent...*

But I still find it laughable.
		
Click to expand...

I can and will


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No I can't blame him because apparently 'Arry was innocent...

But I still find it laughable.
		
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The dog made me do it gov..


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## Sweep (Apr 27, 2021)

According to the Mirror, Ceferin at UEFA responding to Klopp’s concerns about having to play more games under the new Champions League format, says that it was done to save clubs. “Our reforms came about because clubs need help responding to the financial crisis. We can carry on as we are but clubs will go out of business. And who does that hurt most? The fans.”
“There can always be less matches but also the salaries of the players and the coaches have to adapt. You cannot generate less and earn more all the time.”
So it sounds like he is agreeing with Perez at Madrid in that the survival of clubs is under threat.
At the weekend Klopp said “ Ten games instead of six and no idea where to put them in. The only people who never get asked are the players, the coaches, the supporters.” He said the only reason for the new format was money. “You can’t have 20 teams in a league, 2 cup competitions, 10 international games before Christmas. These things aren’t possible.” 

I suppose one possible solution would be for the teams competing in Europe be allowed not to compete in the League Cup or for it to become a cup for the Football League and not the Premier League. Maybe even the same with the FA Cup. After all, it’s been pretty obvious for years that coaches want to rest their top players for games like these by playing a blend of youth and experience and only bringing some players on when needed. Clearly coaches feel their top athletes can’t cope with the current number of games and that means bigger squads which means a bigger wage bill.
If we accept that European matches bring in more revenue than the League Cup and FA Cup then you can see why UEFA think expanding the CL is the way forward. The coaches don’t think they can cope. Something has to give and it looks like home cup competitions. More European matches, fewer home matches and no “wet Wednesdays at Stoke”. Sounds a bit like the European Super League.

It seems to me they are all the same. UEFA, ESL just fighting over who gets the money.
Maybe all that was missing from the ESL was promotion / relegation? Because unless something gives, that’s what we will eventually get anyway. Or no club to support. Apparently.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 27, 2021)

Then again, maybe clubs could stop spending £70m+ on players, paying agents tens of millions each year and laugh at a player asking for £200k per week (that's small fry compared to the demands of a Haarland, Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe etc). Football has lost the plot financially and needs to re-set itself. If it doesn't then any club going bust has no sympathy from me or many others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Then again, maybe clubs could stop spending £70m+ on players, paying agents tens of millions each year and laugh at a player asking for £200k per week (that's small fry compared to the demands of a Harrland, Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe etc). Football has lost the plot financially and needs to re-set itself. If it doesn't then any club going bust has no sympathy from me or many others.
		
Click to expand...

That for me is a big reason why the likes of Barce , Madrid and Juve are struggling financially - having to pay the likes of Messi and Ronaldo nearly £40mil a year alone plus any bonuses etc. Messi and Ronaldo have prob pushed those clubs finances to the limit

The likes of PSG and City can find ways to soak it all up

And then it’s amusing when I read On various social media groups for Liverpool fans complaining about the fees and the wages Liverpool have spent -pointing fingers because they aren’t paying the top wages and the top fees for players. It’s a never needing circle - a lot of fans expect owners to delve into their own money and spend it


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## larmen (Apr 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That for me is a big reason why the likes of Barce , Madrid and Juve are struggling financially - having to pay the likes of Messi and Ronaldo nearly £40mil a year alone plus any bonuses etc. Messi and Ronaldo have prob pushed those clubs finances to the limit

The likes of PSG and City can find ways to soak it all up

And then it’s amusing when I read On various social media groups for Liverpool fans complaining about the fees and the wages Liverpool have spent -pointing fingers because they aren’t paying the top wages and the top fees for players. It’s a never needing circle - a lot of fans expect owners to delve into their own money and spend it
		
Click to expand...

They have seen Abramovic doing it, they expect the same. Shevchenko as a birthday present, ...


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## GB72 (Apr 27, 2021)

It is something that rugby is dealing with at the moment on a massively smaller scale (top players get less in a year than top footballers get in a week). The top players are looking for higher wages, the only way to afford that is to play more matches but with player welfare in mind, that cannot happen without bigger squads, which cannot be afforded without lower wages or even more matches. it is a never ending circle and rugby is having that issue even with salary caps in place (making it harder to have bigger squads). We have the same calls from those clubs with rich backers to ditch and restrictions on spending so as they can buy their way to the top but they are currently being at least delayed by the votes of clubs who are run more frugally. 

Unfortunately, without global regulation, there is no easy answer. If Club A will not pay the big transfer fee, the massive wages and a few million to an agent, Club B or C will and so Club A drop behind and take the associated flack for it and do ends up spending beyond their means to try and stay at the top.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 27, 2021)

larmen said:



			They have seen Abramovic doing it, they expect the same. Shevchenko as a birthday present, ...
		
Click to expand...

https://www.givemesport.com/1531453-the-25-clubs-with-the-biggest-transfer-net-spent-this-decade

Yup, let's blame Roman, despite the fact that both Manchester clubs have a significantly bigger net spend in the last decade.


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## larmen (Apr 27, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://www.givemesport.com/1531453-the-25-clubs-with-the-biggest-transfer-net-spent-this-decade

Yup, let's blame Roman, despite the fact that both Manchester clubs have a significantly bigger net spend in the last decade.  

Click to expand...

From my view Chelsea where the 1st who pumped outside money into the squad, just a billionaire with his pet project buying cups.
City did the Chelsea thing, but later.

Not sure if united generated their money or if it was given to them.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 27, 2021)

That imo is where EUFA and FIFA have failed.
They should have capped transfers and wages years ago .
But clubs are to self centred to do it themselves and look where that’s got us.
It needs cooperation from top clubs just like the ESL . Maybe.
Wonder if they have learnt any lessons.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 27, 2021)

Let’s not kid ourselves that “project big picture” and the ESL were no more than the rich getting richer and more powerful.

The ideas they had and proposed didn’t close the gap between the haves and the have nots, they widen it, and the way they were doing that was by giving the everybody more money, but the bigger slice of the money was going to them and those around them.

UEFA and FIFA also needs to be restructured as, I believe most of us would agree, they’ve been the greediest of the lot!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 27, 2021)

larmen said:



			From my view Chelsea where the 1st who pumped outside money into the squad, just a billionaire with his pet project buying cups.
City did the Chelsea thing, but later.

Not sure if united generated their money or if it was given to them.
		
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Not heard of Jack Walker then?

And the cups are earned by the players on the field, regardless of how they got to the club.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 27, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not heard of Jack Walker then?

And the cups are earned by the players on the field, regardless of how they got to the club.
		
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Jack Walker was British and bought his local football team, yes he injected money and effectively bought the title, but you can’t compare him with Roman or the many other foreign multi millionaires who have no links with the clubs they have “ invested” in


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 27, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Jack Walker was British and bought his local football team, *yes he injected money and effectively bought the title*, but you can’t compare him with Roman or the many other foreign multi millionaires who have no links with the clubs they have “ invested” in
		
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Why is that any less applicable to British owners Phil?  If the argument is about money injected into the club that they hadn't generated it's exactly the same thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 27, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Jack Walker was British and bought his local football team, yes he injected money and effectively bought the title, but you can’t compare him with Roman or the many other foreign multi millionaires who have no links with the clubs they have “ invested” in
		
Click to expand...

It’s fair comparison though - just because it’s someone’s local club shouldn’t change the fact that Walker piled millions into the club to buy the best players around to win trophies , he had to stop when he ran out of money. 

Walker was prob the first to spend big on a lot of players in a short period of time looking for success , Chelsea before Abramovich arrived had a number of years of success under the likes of Vialli and Gullit - then Abramovich bought the club and did the same as Walker but in a grander scale 

Then City who were just a mid level Prem Team after years in the lower divisions took it to the very next stage and continue to spend


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 27, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why is that any less applicable to British owners Phil?  If the argument is about money injected into the club that they hadn't generated it's exactly the same thing.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s fair comparison though - just because it’s someone’s local club shouldn’t change the fact that Walker piled millions into the club to buy the best players around to win trophies , he had to stop when he ran out of money.

Walker was prob the first to spend big on a lot of players in a short period of time looking for success , Chelsea before Abramovich arrived had a number of years of success under the likes of Vialli and Gullit - then Abramovich bought the club and did the same as Walker but in a grander scale

Then City who were just a mid level Prem Team after years in the lower divisions took it to the very next stage and continue to spend
		
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing that he poured loads into the club and was probably the first to do so to that scale, I'm making the distinction that he had an existing connection with the town and the club, (he was born there etc) and comparing that most the current owners of the "big 6" (With the exception of Levy at Spurs), who have no history with the clubs they now own,

Thats all


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## larmen (Apr 27, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not heard of Jack Walker then?

And the cups are earned by the players on the field, regardless of how they got to the club.
		
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No, sounds like the British version of Dietmar Hopp then.
I am only in the UK since Arsenal made it big, invincibles and such. Must have been before my time. Add ManU to the billionaire toy projects then, if you must.

Let me revise, ... well, LP already did. Started with ManU, Chelsea made it worse, City made it worse.

Probably needs Bozos or Musk to ‘improve’ on that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2021)

I see Liverpool have posted £46m year end losses.
Does that make Annan Athletic a more viable club.


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