# Push-Fade



## JustOne (Dec 4, 2012)

Does anyone here actually choose to play with a push-fade?


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## USER1999 (Dec 4, 2012)

I am told that I should think push fade, but be hitting a four yard draw. 

Confused?

You bet!


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## duncan mackie (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm nearly there - don't tell me I'm aiming in the wrong place!!!!!!!!!!

Compared to a pull hook I get a lot more playable second shots...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2012)

I find it hard to imagine why anyone would want to play one as a stock shot.


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## USER1999 (Dec 4, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I find it hard to imagine why anyone would want to play one as a stock shot.
		
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It's powerful, and safe.

Why would you not want one?


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## garyinderry (Dec 4, 2012)

i cant hit a straight golf ball. its either a fade or a draw for me.  i think ive hit a stright ball once in my life.


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## JustOne (Dec 4, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I find it hard to imagine why anyone would want to play one as a stock shot.
		
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Jack? Tiger?... both probably rubbish


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Jack? Tiger?... both probably rubbish 

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Sarcasm rules James. 

Tiger pushes them into the right rough.   Jack!  I thought he hit a Pull Fade?

I just cant see the point of sending a ball off right and then having it turn right in flight.  What do you do, aim at the left rough and hit the right?    Whats safe or powerful about that.  I must be missing something


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## bigslice (Dec 4, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Sarcasm rules James. 

Tiger pushes them into the right rough.   Jack!  I thought he hit a Pull Fade?

I just cant see the point of sending a ball off right and then having it turn right in flight.  What do you do, aim at the left rough and hit the right?    Whats safe or powerful about that.  I must be missing something [/QUOTE

if its your stock shot you no where it will land then play it, same if its a pull draw
		
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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2012)

bigslice said:



			if its your stock shot you no where it will land then play it, same if its a pull draw
		
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But why would you want this as a stock shot ?

A better more powerful fade is where the aim is a little left with a square clubface then make a small cut on the ball from out to in so it fades back to middle, the ball compresses better this way.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			But why would you want this as a stock shot ?

A better more powerful fade is where the aim is a little left with a square clubface then make a small cut on the ball from out to in so it fades back to middle, the ball compresses better this way.
		
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That IS basically a push-fade Socket  Your swing is from the inside but as you are open the path would cut across the ball slightly.... you can stand more open, actually very much open and yet your swing itself is from the inside (not an OTT swing)...

In fact, here's Tiger aiming down the left rough/left edge of the green.... (sorry it goes back and forth a bit I was looking at different moving parts)

[video=youtube;R_cIfuyzDuY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_cIfuyzDuY[/video]

Tiger aiming at the right edge of the bunkers on the left of fairway.... (ball starts to the right of his alignment... and moves further right)

[video=youtube;oSxk2r--ZuM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSxk2r--ZuM[/video]


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Does anyone here actually choose to play with a push-fade?
		
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I'm pretty sure I do. I aim left but the ball always seems to start right of where I'm aiming. I haven't seen it on video to say for sure but that's how it seems to me.


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## timchump (Dec 5, 2012)

Does tiger use the push fade more now under sean foley?

I didn't think he used as much under harmon,  when the majority of people thought he played his best golf


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Does anyone here actually choose to play with a push-fade?
		
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Right here ma'man :thup:


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

timchump said:



			Does tiger use the push fade more now under sean foley?

I didn't think he used as much under harmon, when the majority of people thought he played his best golf
		
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IMHO definately, at very least it is more obvious under Foley - but then I'm no swing expert


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## pokerjoke (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Does anyone here actually choose to play with a push-fade?
		
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James i play with a push-fade
For me its a safe shot,you basically take out the left side of the fairway.
I have been trying to change recently,working on some Justin Rose moves out of the GM mag.
For me,im now more inconsistent.
My safe play is the push fade.
Why do you pose the question?.


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## jimbob.someroo (Dec 5, 2012)

I use it a lot with my irons, particularly on 170-210 yard par threes. I'll take an extra club aim left and swing easy. I find this a lot easier to control (and more consistent) than trying to hit a towering draw, or a dead straight ball.

Tend not to use as much with the long stick as our course doesn't really sit well for anything going left to right off the tee - and I tend to forget the 'swing easy' bit and block (slice) it out right.


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## Lump (Dec 5, 2012)

My stock shot is a fade (With driver and woods). But can rear its head as a push fade when I'm going after it. I can pretty much forget about the left hand side of a hole off the tee. Its not a shot I like though, I would much prefer a straight shot. You get pretty much zero roll from a faded drive, even more so at this time of year.


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 5, 2012)

My stock shot is a duck hook


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## Region3 (Dec 5, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I just cant see the point of sending a ball off right and then having it turn right in flight.  What do you do, aim at the left rough and hit the right?    Whats safe or powerful about that.  I must be missing something 

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It's not my stock shot, but when I need a fade it's how I do it.

The reason being that all I need to do is slightly change my grip and alignment, then swing normally.

That sounds safer to me than trying to change my swing to cut more across the ball.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

Lump said:



			You get pretty much zero roll from a faded drive, even more so at this time of year.
		
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How high are you hitting it? If you're talking about a driver then unless it's coming down vertically or is loaded with more backspin than anyone would want, a fade gets plenty of run. i know there is a theory that a draw goes furhter than a fade but I would imagine the difference is pretty negligible to most players.


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			How high are you hitting it? If you're talking about a driver then unless it's coming down vertically or is loaded with more backspin than anyone would want, a fade gets plenty of run. i know there is a theory that a draw goes furhter than a fade but I would imagine the difference is pretty negligible to most players.
		
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I'm with Hawkeye.

I get plenty of run, especially with the driver and I play the push fade.


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			I'm with Hawkeye.

I get plenty of run, especially with the driver and I play the push fade.
		
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how are you getting run on a push fade, everything must land in the right rough?

Unless every hole is dogleg right?


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## Lump (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			How high are you hitting it? If you're talking about a driver then unless it's coming down vertically or is loaded with more backspin than anyone would want, a fade gets plenty of run. i know there is a theory that a draw goes furhter than a fade but I would imagine the difference is pretty negligible to most players.
		
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I don't hit a high high ball (it doesnt balloon anyways) but at this time of year it'll not roll much more than more than 2-3 yrds max. (Im not hitting down on my driver too, before anyone peeps up.)


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			how are you getting run on a push fade, everything must land in the right rough?

Unless every hole is dogleg right?
		
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An example for you Patrick, from one of the straightest holes at my local course.







Only a rough image, I'll admit. 

The red line shows my alignment. There is a row of 4 large trees left of the fairway. I align myself along a line at the second tree from the left. The ball starts right of this, on the end right big tree 

Yellow line shows my typical flight and where I usually finish. Flight starts straight at the end big tree (Push), then fades back into the fairway.


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			The red line shows my alignment.
		
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I couldn't bring myself to aim where a straight shot would put me in trouble.


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2012)

StrangelyBrown said:



			I couldn't bring myself to aim where a straight should would put me in trouble.
		
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Minimum risk for me SB.

If I just hit a push from there, I'll still end up on the fairway, just closer to the end tree. If I hit a straight pull or a hook I end up on the next fairway and still have a sight at the green.

I'll only get in trouble if I hit it straight along my alignment


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Minimum risk for me SB.
		
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If it works for you then more power to you Gareth 

Aiming into trouble (OOB even) would give me the heebie jeebies :O


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			An example for you Patrick, from one of the straightest holes at my local course.







Only a rough image, I'll admit. 

The red line shows my alignment. There is a row of 4 large trees left of the fairway. I align myself along a line at the second tree from the left. The ball starts right of this, on the end right big tree 

Yellow line shows my typical flight and where I usually finish. Flight starts straight at the end big tree (Push), then fades back into the fairway.
		
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my understanding is that a push fade starts right like a draw but carries on going right maybe tails at the end. What you have there dear boy is a slice. starts left and goes right.


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			my understanding is that a push fade starts right like a draw but carries on going right maybe tails at the end. What you have there dear boy is a slice. starts left and goes right.

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But it doesn't start left. The ball starts to the right of my alignment, so a push. It flys straight then begins to fade towards the top of its flight.

If it didn't fade it would just be a push. As it 90%+ of the time it fades, it's got to be a push fade.


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			What you have there dear boy is a slice. starts left and goes right.

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I LOL'd


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			But it doesn't start left. The ball starts to the right of my alignment, so a push. It flys straight then begins to fade towards the top of its flight.

If it didn't fade it would just be a push. As it 90%+ of the time it fades, it's got to be a push fade.
		
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the line drawn starts left,  and goes right, if it was a push it would start right and no time go left. I hit a few on Sunday and every one stayed right of the fairway.

If you are aiming left to allow for it its a Fade, our as we call it up here a slice


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

StrangelyBrown said:



			I couldn't bring myself to aim where a straight shot would put me in trouble.
		
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The clubface isn't aiming at the trouble though (see the Tiger drive vid above), and because you are lined left you know the ball will move more away from the trouble, even 1yd and you're safe.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			If you are aiming left to allow for it its a Fade, our as we call it up here a slice

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You're kind of right, but in your terms, it's a slice with a swing from the *inside*... not an 'over the top' swing. Again, if you watch the Tiger drive vid is that a slice?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			the line drawn starts left, and goes right, if it was a push it would start right and no time go left. I hit a few on Sunday and every one stayed right of the fairway.

If you are aiming left to allow for it its a Fade, our as we call it up here a slice

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You're forgetting the basis to determine what is right or left is the aim line, not the middle of the fairway. I don't aim as far left as Gareth, the left edge of the fairway would do for me, normally the ball would start further right than where I aim, which is the key point, and is hence a push, it then Fades tot he right ending up in the right half of the fairway.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			my understanding is that a push fade starts right like a draw but carries on going right maybe tails at the end. What you have there dear boy is a slice. starts left and goes right.
		
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Patrick, if the guy is lined up square to the *RED* line what is the shot shape in *PINK* 
[click pic to enlarge...]


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Minimum risk for me SB.

If I just hit a push from there, I'll still end up on the fairway, just closer to the end tree. If I hit a straight pull or a hook I end up on the next fairway and still have a sight at the green.

I'll only get in trouble if I hit it straight along my alignment 

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StrangelyBrown said:



			If it works for you then more power to you Gareth 

Aiming into trouble (OOB even) would give me the heebie jeebies :O
		
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Gareth also has more fairway to play with (assuming consistancy), if a fairway is 20 yds wide and you aim up the middle your margin of error is 10yds either side, aiming up the left he has 20yds of fairway for the first bounce........in theory


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Patrick, if the guy is lined up square to the *RED* line what is the shot shape in *PINK* 
[click pic to enlarge...]

View attachment 3726

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You see i would call that a pull/hook?

Our pro was trying to get me to hit pushes earier this year and none started left all went right like a draw and stayed out right and the odd one tailed a bit (fade). to my understanding that would be a push /fade. I could be wrong, i'm not one for tech stuff on the swing.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			You see i would call that a pull/hook?

Our pro was trying to get me to hit pushes earier this year and none started left all went right like a draw and stayed out right and the odd one tailed a bit (fade). to my understanding that would be a push /fade. I could be wrong, i'm not one for tech stuff on the swing.
		
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The pink shot: Can you not see that if the guy was aimed along the RED line then he's pushed the ball out to the right of his alignment and it then curves back to the left?

the pink shot in this case is a push-draw.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2012)

Playing a gentle high fade is one of my favourite shots.  I feel so much of it is I see it in my head and translate that picture into the feeling the shot then actually playing it.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			my understanding is that a push fade starts right like a draw but carries on going right maybe tails at the end. What you have there dear boy is a slice. starts left and goes right.

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It does. But only in relation to 'Target'. So adjusting what the 'target' is (further left, say left trees).

Try an Animal Farm analogy! Not all fades are equal!

Hitting a Push-Fade with 'target' of left trees will likely achieve the same result as a Pull Fade with 'target' of edge of left rough. Pull-Fade has out-to-in path (relative to 'target'); Push-Fade has in-to-out path (relative to 'target'. Both have face aligned left of desired end position. 

That's why it's so important to understand the correct ball flight laws.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			That's why it's so important to understand the correct ball flight laws.
		
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I thought you said it wasn't important on '_another_' thread...... 







I'm JOKING!!!!!! It was a joke.... just kidding...... thought it was funny, that's all :thup:


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			Gareth also has more fairway to play with (assuming consistancy), if a fairway is 20 yds wide and you aim up the middle your margin of error is 10yds either side, aiming up the left he has 20yds of fairway for the first bounce........in theory
		
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That is Jack Nicklaus' theory word for word, he had the whole fairway and never missed one to the left, he'd taken the left side (miss to the left) out of play as he never hooked or drew one off the tee.

His worse tee shot ended up in the right rough... from where he could play ANOTHER fade ..... and he was one of the longest hitters of his time... if not *THE* longest.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'm JOKING!!!!!! It was a joke.... just kidding...... thought it was funny, that's all :thup:
		
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I don't believe you!



JustOne said:



			I thought you said it wasn't important on '_another_' thread...... 

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Er. No I didn't!
You are inventing statements that haven't been made again, just like Bob objected to.:angry:

BTW. What's the obsession with Pink. A much more succinct explanation than mine though. :thup:


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## richy (Dec 5, 2012)

I much prefer reading these types of threads. :thup:


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

I said you need to know the ball flight laws to teach (and fix) your own swing....

you replied...




			Well, they seemed to do a pretty good job of it! Especially the greatest exponents of the game at the time, who preached and applied the incorrect method, yet somehow manufactured the correct results!
		
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and now in this thread you've said...




			That's why it's so important to understand the correct ball flight laws.
		
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Come on Foxy... or it is or it isn't? :cheers:

Isn't this very thread an example of how it's important to know the ball flight laws? after all you said it yourself above!


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			Gareth also has more fairway to play with (assuming consistancy), if a fairway is 20 yds wide and you aim up the middle your margin of error is 10yds either side, aiming up the left he has 20yds of fairway for the first bounce........in theory
		
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That is Jack Nicklaus' theory word for word, he had the whole fairway and never missed one to the left, he'd taken the left side (miss to the left) out of play as he never hooked or drew one off the tee. His worst tee shot ended up in the right rough... from where he could play ANOTHER fade ..... and he was one of the longest hitters of his time... if not *THE* longest.

Here's a pic of Curtis Strange hitting a push-fade (see how far left he's aimed).... he must be quite good seeing as it's taken from the Ryder Cup [click pic to enlarge...]




(note: part of this post is duplicated as the first effort got sent to the mods for 'approval'  that glitch is getting VERY irritating!)


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The pink shot: Can you not see that if the guy was aimed along the RED line then he's pushed the ball out to the right of his alignment and it then curves back to the left?

the pink shot in this case is a push-draw.
		
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I didn't know thye red line was included. My point being if you were aiming way left all the time its not a push??


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			That is Jack Nicklaus' theory word for word, he had the whole fairway and never missed one to the left, he'd taken the left side (miss to the left) out of play as he never hooked or drew one off the tee. His worst tee shot ended up in the right rough... from where he could play ANOTHER fade ..... and he was one of the longest hitters of his time... if not *THE* longest.

Here's a pic of Curtis Strange hitting a push-fade (see how far left he's aimed).... he must be quite good seeing as it's taken from the Ryder Cup [click pic to enlarge...]

View attachment 3727




(note: part of this post is duplicated as the first effort got sent to the mods for 'approval'  that glitch is getting VERY irritating!)

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is that not just a fade?


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			I didn't know thye red line was included. My point being if you were aiming way left all the time its not a push??
		
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No problem Patrick I'll see if I can help you here....

Here's a picture of a guy hitting a PUSH-DRAW

do you agree that it's a push draw? 

[click the pic to enlarge....]


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			No problem Patrick I'll see if I can help you here....

Here's a picture of a guy hitting a PUSH-DRAW

do you agree that it's a push draw? 

[click the pic to enlarge....]


View attachment 3728

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For me that would just be a draw?

If it were to end up much further right i would call that a push draw??


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Ok... so you call that a draw.. it is in fact a push-draw as the ball heads a little to the right and then curves back... but let's agree with you and say it's a DRAW.....

how about now???? [click pic to enlarge...]


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## brendy (Dec 5, 2012)

The slight push draw would be my normal shot. Occasionally I try to hit a fade and I either slice it or double cross myself and it ends up even further into the cabbage. I do tend to aim just off the right sided of the fairway when I know I should be aiming just inside it.


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## cookelad (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Ok... so you call that a draw.. it is in fact a push-draw as the ball heads a little to the right and then curves back... but let's agree with you and say it's a DRAW.....

how about now???? [click pic to enlarge...]

View attachment 3729

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Alignments to pot/You need to change your glasses?


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

cookelad said:



			Alignments to pot/You need to change your glasses?
		
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.... you're not helping!!!!!  LOL


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## duncan mackie (Dec 5, 2012)

cookelad said:



			Alignments to pot/You need to change your glasses?
		
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why?


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## cookelad (Dec 5, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			why?
		
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Being a bit simplistic and seeing it from my POV! I'd expect to hit a draw/push-draw so aligning left and drawing it into the heavy stuff would mean my alignment was off!


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Ok... so you call that a draw.. it is in fact a push-draw as the ball heads a little to the right and then curves back... but let's agree with you and say it's a DRAW.....

how about now???? [click pic to enlarge...]

View attachment 3729

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feels like being back a school, when i was struggling to grasp the finer points of Latin!!

The bottom  green line i would say was a fade and the top a push?


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Patrick, the green lines are the edges of the fairway... :thup:

I'm trying to ascertain what is the difference between this (yellow line) that you said is a draw ....




and this (yellow line) which is the SAME SHOT but with the fairway/green drawn in




(nb: I'm not trying to be patronising... I know it's like a school day.... I'm just trying to help)


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



*That is Jack Nicklaus' theory word for word,* he had the whole fairway and never missed one to the left, he'd taken the left side (miss to the left) out of play as he never hooked or drew one off the tee. His worst tee shot ended up in the right rough... from where he could play ANOTHER fade ..... and he was one of the longest hitters of his time... if not *THE* longest.
		
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brilliant, its just out my head- I must think like Jack, for the avoidance of doubt I've never read anything Jack has written......woohooooo tour school here I come


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			brilliant, its just out my head- I must think like Jack, for the avoidance of doubt I've never read anything Jack has written......woohooooo tour school here I come

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Ironically people who play a draw (playing up the right side) should be looking to end up in the left rough as a bad shot..... which is effectively a GOOD shot as they can play ANOTHER draw from there....

but drawers of the ball NEVER see it that way


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Patrick, if the guy is lined up square to the *RED* line what is the shot shape in *PINK* 
[click pic to enlarge...]

View attachment 3726

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To me the yellow path means you have a fault in your swing and you are aiming left into trouble so that your fault will get you out the trees.   If you dont fix that fault you will be in many other fairways where you wont be able to  do this.   The purple path is a draw  to me.

I think the best way to play that shot is to hit a straight fade.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			To me the yellow path means you have a fault in your swing and you are aiming left into trouble so that your fault will get you out the trees.   If you dont fix that fault you will be in many other fairways where you wont be able to  do this.   The purple path is a draw  to me.

I think the best way to play that shot is to hit a straight fade.
		
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This is Tiger hitting that yellow ball flight..

[video=youtube;oSxk2r--ZuM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSxk2r--ZuM[/video]



he is aiming at the trees behind the bunkers on the left........ he has a swing fault?


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2012)

And what's this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw_EiECeU84&feature=fvwp&NR=1


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			And what's this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw_EiECeU84&feature=fvwp&NR=1

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Monty was (generally) a pull-fader, so is Kaymer... so? ...Is the thread about pull-faders?


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			To me the yellow path means you have a fault in your swing and you are aiming left into trouble so that your fault will get you out the trees.   If you dont fix that fault you will be in many other fairways where you wont be able to  do this.   The purple path is a draw  to me.

I think the best way to play that shot is to hit a straight fade.
		
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You know I'm actually taken aback seeing you post that Socket, I'm literally in shock


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			You see i would call that a pull/hook?

Our pro was trying to get me to hit pushes earier this year and none started left all went right like a draw and stayed out right and the odd one tailed a bit (fade). to my understanding that would be a push /fade. I could be wrong, i'm not one for tech stuff on the swing.
		
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How would it be a pull if it starts right of where the player is aiming, it has to be a push.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			This is Tiger hitting that yellow ball flight..

[video=youtube;oSxk2r--ZuM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSxk2r--ZuM[/video]

he is aiming at the trees behind the bunkers on the left........ he has a swing fault?
		
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I dont agree.  It's difficult to see as the camera is not directly  behind him.   It looks to me that he is aimed fairly square if not a tad  left, he then hits the ball initially straight on his alignment from where it later makes a fade.  This is, as I suggested earlier the best and most powerful way to fade.

I do agree that Tiger has a swing fault, he pushes the ball into the  rough more than most tour players.  His great recovery and short game  makes up for it though.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Monty was (generally) a pull-fader, so is Kaymer... so? ...Is the thread about pull-faders? 

Click to expand...

Did wonder about Monty. Still an in-to-out swing by the looks. 

Kaymer tried to change - daftly imo - for success at Masters. I think he has returned to his 'natural' swing now though. 

Why mention another Pull-Fader (Kaymer) btw


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont agree.  It's difficult to see as the camera is not directly  behind him.   It looks to me that he is aimed fairly square if not a tad  left, he then hits the ball initially straight on his alignment from where it later makes a fade.  This is, as I suggested earlier the best and most powerful way to fade.

I do agree that Tiger has a swing fault, he pushes the ball into the  rough more than most tour players.  His great recovery and short game  makes up for it though.
		
Click to expand...

Um... OK.






FWIW, Tiger *used to* hit the ball directly into the right rough a lot as he used to play for a *draw*.... and blocked it quite often. He's now hitting push-fade more often (with both drives and irons) and was leading the driving stats at one time.


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Ok... so you call that a draw.. it is in fact a push-draw as the ball heads a little to the right and then curves back... but let's agree with you and say it's a DRAW.....

how about now???? [click pic to enlarge...]

View attachment 3729

Click to expand...

is that not still a draw you are just aiming in the wrong direction?


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			This is Tiger hitting that yellow ball flight..

[video=youtube;oSxk2r--ZuM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSxk2r--ZuM[/video]



he is aiming at the trees behind the bunkers on the left........ he has a swing fault?
		
Click to expand...

just looked at this as well and is this not just a fade? 

why is there any push about it?


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## Lump (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			just looked at this as well and is this not just a fade? 

why is there any push about it?
		
Click to expand...

His target line is just to the left of the bunkers , the ball flight is to the right hand side of the most right bunker. So he effectively pushed his shot in relation to his target line.... and the ball fades... so it must be a push fade.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			just looked at this as well and is this not just a fade? 

why is there any push about it?
		
Click to expand...

Because as per JO's picture, with the way Tiger is aimed, if he hit it straight it would end up in the right edge of the bunker but it actually starts to the right of the bunker, it's not a lot but it is still a push


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Did wonder about Monty. Still an in-to-out swing by the looks. 

Kaymer tried to change - daftly imo - for success at Masters. I think he has returned to his 'natural' swing now though. 

Why mention another Pull-Fader btw  

Click to expand...

There are about *10* pull-faders in the history of Tour golf.... the rest hit push-fades. I can dig some more pull-faders up for you if you want? 

For the sake of it, here's one more... 

[video=youtube;xQkpk097qBg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkpk097qBg[/video]


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			is that not still a draw you are just aiming in the wrong direction?
		
Click to expand...

I think JO was trying to get people to stop thinking about the fairway when thinking about a push or pull - could be wrong though


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			There are about *10* pull-faders in the history of Tour golf.... the rest hit push-fades. I can dig some more pull-faders up for you if you want? 

For the sake of it, here's one more... 

[video=youtube;xQkpk097qBg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkpk097qBg[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Now that is a pull fade if ever I saw one


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			is that not still a draw you are just aiming in the wrong direction?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it is. It's the same shot as the first picture.

So what's the pink line on the picture by Gareth? (turn your head sideways a little if it helps...)


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## duncan mackie (Dec 5, 2012)

cookelad said:



			Being a bit simplistic and seeing it from my POV! I'd expect to hit a draw/push-draw so aligning left and drawing it into the heavy stuff would mean my alignment was off!
		
Click to expand...

ah - OK.  I just thought JO was doing a good job trying to illustrate the point that the direction of the target was irrelevant in this context; but then I had to arrange tea and (I think) Patrick's on the same wavelength now (maybe  )


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Yes, it is. It's the same shot as the first picture.

So what's the pink line on the picture by Gareth? (turn your head sideways a little if it helps...)






Click to expand...

if i were aiming for the fairway on that hole ( nothing to do with the yellow and red lines) that would be a pull, but if my line was the red line it would be a draw?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			if i were aiming for the fairway on that hole ( nothing to do with the yellow and red lines) that would be a pull, but if my line was the red line it would be a draw?
		
Click to expand...

It would be if the ball started along the red line and went left, but it doesn't, it starts right of the red line which is a push. Admittedly, 99% of the golfing world would just call this a draw but it is in fact a push draw to the picky ones amongst us


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			if i were aiming for the fairway on that hole ( nothing to do with the yellow and red lines) that would be a pull, but if my line was the red line it would be a draw?
		
Click to expand...

That is correct, the shot *IS* a *draw* as the player was lined up on the RED line. Previously you said it was a pull or a hook.

can you see the difference? The shot shape depends where you are lined up and what the ball does in relation to that alignment...  FOR EXAMPLE you might have gone to your pro with that shot (or onto the forum) and said you were hooking (or pulling) it whereas in fact you were hitting a really nice little DRAW!!!! .....You'd then have gotten the WRONG ADVICE to fix it!!! and possibly *broken* your lovely draw by changing something *in your swing* that you never needed to change in the first place!

to be precise it's a little push-draw as the ball starts a little to the right of the players alignment, but let's not split hairs  ....it draws... it doesn't pull or hook!!


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			That is correct, the shot *IS* a *draw* as the player was lined up on the RED line. Previously you said it was a pull or a hook.

can you see the difference? The shot shape depends where you are lined up and what the ball does in relation to that alignment...  FOR EXAMPLE you might have gone to your pro with that shot (or onto the forum) and said you were hooking (or pulling) it whereas in fact you were hitting a really nice little DRAW!!!! .....You'd then have gotten the WRONG ADVICE to fix it!!! and possibly *broken* your lovely draw by changing something *in your swing* that you never needed to change in the first place!

to be precise it's a little push-draw as the ball starts a little to the right of the players alignment, but let's not split hairs  ....it draws... it doesn't pull or hook!!

Click to expand...

but my point to Garath was , he was saying he hit a push/fade. but to me if he's aiming way left, the ball starts left and slices right. whats push about that.

I admit it is about alignment, but if i'm aiming straight and it goes right and fades a bit, i would call that a push fade.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			but my point to Garath was , he was saying he hit a push/fade. but to me if he's aiming way left, the ball starts left and slices right. whats push about that.

I admit it is about alignment, but if i'm aiming straight and it goes right and fades a bit, i would call that a push fade.
		
Click to expand...

Ok.... bear with me.....


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## duncan mackie (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			but my point to Garath was , he was saying he hit a push/fade. but to me if he's aiming way left, the ball starts left and slices right. *whats push about that.*

Click to expand...

the ball starting right of his alignment!   It doesn't 'start left' of anything except the target - which is only relevant in the context of this discussion if the player is aligned to the target.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			but my point to Garath was , he was saying he hit a push/fade. but to me if he's aiming way left, the ball starts left and slices right. whats push about that.

I admit it is about alignment, but if i'm aiming straight and it goes right and fades a bit, i would call that a push fade.
		
Click to expand...

The ball starts right of where he was aiming, therefore it's a push!


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Patrick, here's 4 little push-draws... call them draws if you like....

all the shots are *exactly the same*.. the ball (yellow line) starts a little right of the red line before curving back to it

[click to enlarge...]




To hit the flag on the front right of the green the player lines up to the right (top one of the 4 swings) then executes the swing, drawing the ball back to the red line... agreed so far?


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2012)

Maybe in future, people could just describe the shot they want help with rather than naming it. Might help any confusion.


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The ball starts right of where he was aiming, therefore it's a push!
		
Click to expand...

i understand -ish what you are saying, but i just seems to me putting a push fade is just dressing up a slice


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			i understand -ish what you are saying, but i just seems to me putting a push fade is just dressing up a slice

Click to expand...

You don't hit many fairways with a slice


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			but my point to Garath was , he was saying he hit a push/fade. but to me if he's aiming way left, the ball starts left and slices right. whats push about that.

I admit it is about alignment, but if i'm aiming straight and it goes right and fades a bit, i would call that a push fade.
		
Click to expand...

It's all about 'TARGET LINE' aim/alignment - as opposed where you want the ball to end up, which is the target.

Here's a link to the 'New Ball Flight Laws' picture. If a straight shot works, then simply hit it straight. However, the diagram can be rotated clockwise or anti-clockwise (as your TARGET LINE or alignment does) and the appropriate shot shape performed. In the case of that depicted, 10 to 20 degrees of anti-clockwise rotation and a Push Fade - the dashed red line. Note: It's only for clarity/differentiation that the Push Fade is shown as being further right! 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...LIe60QWe64HYDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ9QEwAg&dur=2109


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Patrick, here's 4 little push-draws... call them draws if you like....

all the shots are *exactly the same*.. the ball (yellow line) starts a little right of the red line before curving back to it

[click to enlarge...]

View attachment 3740




To hit the flag on the front right of the green the player lines up to the right (top one of the 4 swings) then executes the swing, drawing the ball back to the red line... agreed so far?
		
Click to expand...

yep, go on


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Ok... so here's a *push-fade*.... missing the green on the right....

the ball starts to the right... and moves more right...... agreed?

[click to enlarge..]


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

So here's that EXACT same shot... nothing has changed.. the guy is still hitting a push-fade...





and here's that exact same shot again... but this time I'll add a tree..... so it's still a push-fade... aimed at a TREE 





now lets do nothing with that picture apart from rotate the entire thing so we can look at it from a different angle... same swing, same push-fade shot *aimed at a tree* , I'm just turning the picture 20 degrees... (tilt your head to the right to confirm that it's just been rotated)





now compare that to Gareth's picture..... the yellow line... see anything familiar?









This is the shot that you said was a slice and "starts left and goes right" :thup: whereas in fact it starts *right*... and goes more right.


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			So here's that EXACT same shot... nothing has changed.. the guy is still hitting a push-fade...

View attachment 3742



and here's that exact same shot again... but this time I'll add a tree..... so it's still a push-fade... aimed at a TREE 

View attachment 3743



now lets do nothing with that picture apart from rotate the entire thing so we can look at it from a different angle... same swing, same push-fade shot *aimed at a tree* , I'm just turning the picture 20 degrees... (tilt your head to the right to confirm that it's just been rotated)

View attachment 3744



now compare that to Gareth's picture..... the yellow line... see anything familiar?









This is the shot that you said was a slice and "starts left and goes right" :thup: whereas in fact it starts *right*... and goes more right.
		
Click to expand...

i can sort of see where you are coming from, but to me thats still just a slice.

if you have to aim left of target to allow for a slice, its still.. well a slice.

well done for trying though


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

Well in that case Jack Nicklaus sliced his way to 18 majors 



Anyway, that's a push-fade. It goes miles when hit well...with a lot of carry, and that's what the pros play :thup:


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Well in that case Jack Nicklaus sliced his way to 18 majors 



Anyway, that's a push-fade. It goes miles when hit well...with a lot of carry, and that's what the pros play :thup:
		
Click to expand...

I'll take your word for it, as i've never really seen Jack hit a shot as such. I only played my first game of golf in Oct 2005 then only got some clubs in march 2006 and joint a club then. Ive never really watched golf and hardly do now apart from the odd half hour here and there. 

what about a block, does that start anything but right and keeps going right?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			i can sort of see where you are coming from, but to me thats still just a slice.

if you have to aim left of target to allow for a slice, its still.. well a slice.

well done for trying though

Click to expand...

You need to re-adjust your definition of slice my friend


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You need to re-adjust your definition of slice my friend
		
Click to expand...

why?

if you have to aim well left and hit the ball out to in, is that not a slice? 

dress it up what ever way you want, pull/ fade, fade whatever makes you happy.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			what about a block, does that start anything but right and keeps going right? 

Click to expand...

why the wink???

Here's *Fred Couples*.... he hits a block pretty much all of the time....

........ won *The Masters* so I gather 

"Looks like Freddie's going to hit it in the house on the left....."

[video=youtube;Mbx5pE1WlQ4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbx5pE1WlQ4[/video]


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			why?

if you have to aim well left and hit the ball out to in, is that not a slice? 

dress it up what ever way you want, pull/ fade, fade whatever makes you happy.

Click to expand...

 I aim at the left edge of the fairway and normally hit the right side of the fairway, if that's a slice, then I'm a slicer


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			what about a block, does that start anything but right and keeps going right? 

Click to expand...

Well, certainly a Push. If it stays on same line as it starts, then a Straight Push, but often there's also a touch of fade involved too, so the Push Fade.


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I aim at the left edge of the fairway and normally hit the right side of the fairway, if that's a slice, then I'm a slicer
		
Click to expand...

would you not be better aiming down the middle and hitting the middle?


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			would you not be better aiming down the middle and hitting the middle?
		
Click to expand...

You can, but you introduce a double miss where you can accidentally hit a draw when you were after a fade. Good golfers hate having a double miss, they like to know what the ball is doing and control that.

Small shapes are good... if you can control them.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			would you not be better aiming down the middle and hitting the middle?
		
Click to expand...

 The thing with golf is we're brainwashed into thinking we should hit a draw (push draw that is ) and if we can't do that we should hit it straight. The truth is, the straight shot is the hardest shot in golf, very few if any of the best players in the world hit a straight shot and more hit a fade than a draw


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			You can, but you introduce a double miss where you can accidentally hit a draw when you were after a fade. Good golfers hate having a double miss, they like to know what the ball is doing and control that.

Small shapes are good... if you can control them.
		
Click to expand...

true, but you can still hit a bad shot who ever you are. 

A mate i play with quite often, has a terrible slice, he would call it a fade. He is very often on one side of the fairway but evey now a nd then he hits one where he's aiming (left handed) which is way off line.

i would rather try and hit it straight, if poss


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			true, but you can still hit a bad shot who ever you are. 

A mate i play with quite often, has a terrible slice, he would call it a fade. He is very often on one side of the fairway but evey now a nd then he hits one where he's aiming (left handed) which is way off line.

i would rather try and hit it straight, if poss

Click to expand...

So your mate who has a terrible slice is very often on the fairway...


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## HNewby (Dec 5, 2012)

I wouldnt want one...


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

one what?


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So your mate who has a terrible slice is very often on the fairway...
		
Click to expand...

no, very often on one side, but rarely on it


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The thing with golf is we're brainwashed into thinking we should hit a draw
		
Click to expand...

Not sure it's brainwashing, the ideal shot is a push-draw (especially with an iron)... if you can't do that OR prefer to hit a fade then it should be a PUSH-fade. Either way it's a push... (the ball is hit with a swing that comes from the inside and *pushes* the ball to the right).


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			true, but you can still hit a bad shot who ever you are. 

A mate i play with quite often, has a terrible slice, he would call it a fade. He is very often on one side of the fairway but evey now a nd then he hits one where he's aiming (left handed) which is way off line.

i would rather try and hit it straight, if poss

Click to expand...

I had one of those days at Princes last weekend. My push-fade drives pretty much all started down left center and ended up in the right rough as I wasn't swinging particularly well in the circumstances (I was freezing in my 4 layers), they were more like loooooong slices as I wasn't trusting it to fade and swinging across it more than I should have been.... pretty much ALL were still in play though (don't recall losing a ball off the tee thru 18 holes).


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			no, very often on one side, but rarely on it 

Click to expand...

Ah, I see


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Ah, I see 

Click to expand...

yes and the the worrying thing is he calls himself "down the middle Nick"  and he 's off 6

oh and his names not even Nick


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			yes and the the worrying thing is he calls himself "down the middle Nick"  and he 's off 6

oh and his names not even Nick

Click to expand...

I konw someone off 7 that thinks a push-draw is a pull, or even a hook.... and a push-fade is a slice.


.... he is also not called Nick


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I had one of those days at Princes last weekend. My push-fade drives pretty much all started down left center and ended up in the right rough as I wasn't swinging particularly well in the circumstances (I was freezing in my 4 layers), they were more like loooooong slices as I wasn't trusting it to fade and swinging across it more than I should have been.... pretty much ALL were still in play though (don't recall losing a ball off the tee thru 18 holes).
		
Click to expand...

it can be an advantage on some courses. I played against i guy in the Moray and Nairn league in the summer who wasfrom a short parkland course. he hit the ball miles witha massive slice. we were playing at Elgin which is a tree lined course, he was so far right he missed all the trouble and was on the next fairway, very often with a shot at the green. if we had been playing at my home track i would have won no trouble and he would have lost a shed load of golf balls. as it was the odd time i missed the fairway i had no shot!!! half was the best i could expect that day


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2012)

Patrick a fade is a small left to right spinner and a slice is a big left to right spinner, RH player of course

I play with guys who think a draw is a fade and vice versa, your friend must have an exceptional short game to slice yet nearly be a cat1 player


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			Patrick a fade is a small left to right spinner and a slice is a big left to right spinner, RH player of course
		
Click to expand...

Good post, but interesting all the same DarthV

Here lies one of the many problems with golf... the written word. It's where individual interpretation takes the truth and applies it wrongly. You know what you meant but someone reading it might not...

The correct way to phrase it would be a fade is a shot that moves a little to the right of it's initial starting direction, a slice moves a lot to the right of it's initial starting direction.

No mention of the word LEFT, the ball doesn't travel 'left to right'.. it only goes to the right.  

I reckon we could solve world peace quicker than decipher the golf swing to a level that everyone could understand


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			Patrick a fade is a small left to right spinner and a slice is a big left to right spinner, RH player of course

I play with guys who think a draw is a fade and vice versa, your friend must have an exceptional short game to slice yet nearly be a cat1 player
		
Click to expand...

 he has, he's won a few  of the big comps we have at Nairn. strangley he hits his irons dead straight!!!

Always gets up and down and is the sort of player who is at his most dangerouse when he's in the deep deep do do. I would hate to be drawn against him in matchplay. also helps that he is the luckiest player you would ever meet, oh and holds the club round the wrong way (left handed)


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Good post, but interesting all the same DarthV

Here lies one of the many problems with golf... the written word. It's where individual interpretation takes the truth and applies it wrongly. You know what you meant but someone reading it might not...

*The correct way to phrase it would be a fade is a shot that moves a little to the right of it's initial starting direction, a slice moves a lot to the right of it's initial starting direction.

No mention of the word LEFT, the ball doesn't travel 'left to right'.. it only goes to the right*.  

I reckon we could solve world peace quicker than decipher the golf swing to a level that everyone could understand 

Click to expand...

yes good point, I know I am meaning the ball is spinning left to right with no mention of where it starts whereas someone relatively new might misinterpret. 

I found the simplest book and the one I learned all my basic golf from 40 years ago was 'Practical Golf-John Jacobs' illustrations and text so clear and simple a 14 year old would understand and cry Eureka!


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			I found the simplest book and the one I learned all my basic golf from 40 years ago was 'Practical Golf-John Jacobs' illustrations and text so clear and simple a 14 year old would understand and cry Eureka!
		
Click to expand...

I found similar with a book by Bennett and Plummer


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I found similar with a book by Bennett and Plummer 

Click to expand...

:rofl:












He's right though :thup:


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2012)

I've fogotten if anyone bothered answering the original question.... 

You're a yes Gareth... 

 Should have added a poll :angry:


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Um... OK.

View attachment 3732




FWIW, Tiger *used to* hit the ball directly into the right rough a lot as he used to play for a *draw*.... and blocked it quite often. He's now hitting push-fade more often (with both drives and irons) and was leading the driving stats at one time.
		
Click to expand...

You are manipulating the image to support your theory.   The line drawn at his feet does not represent the camera angle, IMO he is setup more down the centre.

I give up on this thread, it's too loaded.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			You are manipulating the image to support your theory.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously? Manipulating?

I chose the Tiger video as the commentary was so correct, a fade hit from the INSIDE, it even came with protracer.

For someone that analyses peoples swings with a view to helping them I'm surprised you can't recognise a push-fade when you see one. If you want to walk away from a thread then do that but don't try and slam the door huffy and finger pointing on the way out.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			You are manipulating the image to support your theory.   The line drawn at his feet does not represent the camera angle, IMO he is setup more down the centre.

I give up on this thread, it's too loaded.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't the dark green line of grass by Tiger's feet pointing pretty much down the centre of the fairway? Meaning Tiger is most definately aiming left. The camera is also pretty much directly behind Tiger's aim line, that's how it looks to me anyway.


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## Snelly (Dec 6, 2012)

I don't actually understand much of this thread at all and the subject matter is totally outside any real frame of reference relating to golf as I know it.  I am honestly not familiar with the term push fade or pull fade - this is the first I have heard of them. I know what a fade is and that is a ball that goes from left to right through imparted sidespin.  Anyone arguing the toss over this is just engaged in semantics.   And truth be told, I am not inclined to learn what the push and pull versions are either.  I would be interested to know at what point the terms were invented though?  They certainly were not in the golfing lexicon when I learned to play!

My only observation would be to say that for almost everyone reading this, I would be very surprised indeed if anything at all in this thread helps you to play golf better.


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## timchump (Dec 6, 2012)

side spin don't you mean backspin axis of rotation, no such thing as side spin on a golf ball - sorry i couldn't resist


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2012)

timchump said:



			side spin don't you mean backspin axis of rotation, no such thing as side spin on a golf ball - sorry i couldn't resist 

Click to expand...

Did you have to? You'll have someone telling us a draw has top spin next!!


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## One Planer (Dec 6, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Did you have to? You'll have someone telling us a draw has top spin next!!
		
Click to expand...

I have to agree. I'm waiting for the brown sticky stuff to hit the fan now :mmm:


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## timchump (Dec 6, 2012)

my bad please ignore that post snelly - mod feel free to delete


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

Other than that little aberration, he is right though. As interesting as the debate is, it's all a bit pointless for 99.99999% of golfers throughout the world. The shape of the shot you hit is vastly more important than its name.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Other than that little aberration, he is right though. As interesting as the debate is, it's all a bit pointless for 99.99999% of golfers throughout the world. The shape of the shot you hit is vastly more important than its name.
		
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I'm not sure it was ever intended to help anyone.


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## One Planer (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Other than that little aberration, he is right though. As interesting as the debate is, it's all a bit pointless for 99.99999% of golfers throughout the world. The shape of the shot you hit is vastly more important than its name.
		
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While I agree, 90%+ of threads on the forum could be construed as "unhelpful", but, afterall, it is a forum for golf based discussion.





While were on the subject, which golf glove is best for a 16 'capper? :smirk:


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

Gareth said:



			While were on the subject, which golf glove is best for a 16 'capper? :smirk:
		
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Golf gloves are the invention of the liberal media who buy Cabretta leather in huge quantities and then use the profits to fund corrupt left wing scientists investigations into climate change. Nobody needs a glove. And blades are for people who should know better.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I don't actually understand much of this thread at all and the subject matter is totally outside any real frame of reference relating to golf as I know it.  I am honestly not familiar with the term push fade or pull fade - this is the first I have heard of them. I know what a fade is and that is a ball that goes from left to right through imparted sidespin.  Anyone arguing the toss over this is just engaged in semantics.   And truth be told, I am not inclined to learn what the push and pull versions are either.  I would be interested to know at what point the terms were invented though?  They certainly were not in the golfing lexicon when I learned to play!

My only observation would be to say that for almost everyone reading this, I would be very surprised indeed if anything at all in this thread helps you to play golf better.
		
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It could be written in crayon and you wouldn't understand it, why? because you're not interested.

In your world you just like to jump into these threads and dismiss as much as you can, because you can't be bothered with it you need to voice your derogatory opinion which (as it happens) doesn't really help the learning experience of others. Does everyone have to think the same as you in your world?

There ARE people out there who DO want to learn and discuss stuff, if you're so against that why post? why even read it?


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## duncan mackie (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Other than that little aberration, he is right though. As interesting as the debate is, it's all a bit pointless for 99.99999% of golfers throughout the world. The shape of the shot you hit is vastly more important than its name.
		
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good it's a debate; and as such I completely disagree with this statement -

the majority of golfers in the world want to improve

a huge proportion of them rely on word of mouth, or increasingly youtube video solutions, to implement improvement

if they are hitting a push fade, but think it's a slice, when they implement the 'fix' for their slice the ball will start even further left, and go further left still with an increased arc!


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## cookelad (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I've fogotten if anyone bothered answering the original question.... 

You're a yes Gareth... 

 Should have added a poll :angry:
		
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I'm a no - normally play something like a push-draw (but will continue to call it a draw going forward!) when I need to hit a fade however it does tend to turn out to be a push-fade!


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			good it's a debate; and as such I completely disagree with this statement -

the majority of golfers in the world want to improve

a huge proportion of them rely on word of mouth, or increasingly youtube video solutions, to implement improvement

if they are hitting a push fade, but think it's a slice, when they implement the 'fix' for their slice the ball will start even further left, and go further left still with an increased arc!
		
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And how many times will they do that before they realise that its the wrong solution? Will they continue to implement the change when all evidence points to the contrary? If we are talking about self diagnosis, as we appear to be, then most people will learn more from their mistakes than they will from the eventual success. They might even enjoy the journey. Or, they could visit a pro and learn that way.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

As an additional (genuine) question. When were these definitions first coined?


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## duncan mackie (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			And how many times will they do that before they realise that its the wrong solution?
		
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based on the number of people I see aiming further left, and swinging the club round further to the left (across the ball) in an effort to 'stop slicing' it's hard to not accept that it will be .......years (and years) :fore:


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			based on the number of people I see aiming further left, and swinging the club round further to the left (across the ball) in an effort to 'stop slicing' it's hard to not accept that it will be .......years (and years) :fore:
		
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Good point, well made.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			And how many times will they do that before they realise that its the wrong solution? Will they continue to implement the change when all evidence points to the contrary? If we are talking about self diagnosis, as we appear to be, then most people will learn more from their mistakes than they will from the eventual success. They might even enjoy the journey. Or, they could visit a pro and learn that way.
		
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I'm not so sure, the old cliche "Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result" must have some origin. People don't experiment enough in this game, they do the wrong thing and keep doing it until they master it


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			based on the number of people I see aiming further left, and swinging the club round further to the left (across the ball) in an effort to '*stop the ball going to the right*' it's hard to not accept that it will be .......years (and years) :fore:
		
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Tweaked that


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## Piece (Dec 6, 2012)

In my world:

 - Fade: gentle, controlled movement of the ball right. 
 - Slice: big, uncontrolled movement of the ball right. 

 - Draw: gentle, controlled movement of the ball left. 
 - Hook: big, uncontrolled movement of the ball left. 

The 'push' and 'pull' elements are subcategories of the above


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'm not so sure, the old cliche "Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result" must have some origin. People don't experiment enough in this game, they do the wrong thing and keep doing it until they master it 

Click to expand...

But that's the definition of insanity! I doubt that any naming convention would help someone who follows that mantra. Most people who genuinely wish to improve would be able to analyse their own progression quite well. If someone persists with the "aim 70 yards left and eventually find the fairway", and we all know people who do this, then no amount of in depth analysis and scientific diagnosis will help. They probably aren't that bothered about improving anyway. Obviously not bothered enough to research, practise, analyse anyway. 

By the way. I'm not referring to people who aim for the left side of the fairway, and hope to hit the centre or right of the fairway.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			As an additional (genuine) question. When were these definitions first coined?
		
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1905 ....at about 2.31pm, just after sandwiches :thup:


The last few posts reminded me of something I read on golfWRX so I'll quote it here......



			
				DaveLeeNC from GolfWRX said:
			
		


			"Chasing good ball contact on the range" is the mortal enemy of progress in your golf swing. It is so easy to drop back to bad habits in order to fix the poor ball contact that is inevitable from a swing change (because you will probably be better at hitting the ball, initially, using the old/bad habits). It is mentally difficult to leave the range after working on something, hitting the ball BADLY, but 'making better moves'. I am reminded of trying to learn to play a difficult piece on piano or guitar. No way would you do anything other than start out REALLY/REALLY slowly. Anything else is impossible. But on the range you just go at it full steam, revert to the old stuff (even though you tell yourself that you are doing the new stuff), and make no progress. The analogy in music is trying to play Flight of the Bumblebee for the 1st time on guitar, and quickly going back to Stairway to Heaven. Then you wonder why you can't play Flight of the Bumblebee (after several hours of playing Stairway to Heaven). Happens on the range all the time (and I am as guilty as anyone)"
		
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## Snelly (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			It could be written in crayon and you wouldn't understand it, why? because you're not interested.

In your world you just like to jump into these threads and dismiss as much as you can, because you can't be bothered with it you need to voice your derogatory opinion which (as it happens) doesn't really help the learning experience of others. Does everyone have to think the same as you in your world?

There ARE people out there who DO want to learn and discuss stuff, if you're so against that why post? why even read it? 

Click to expand...

I post James because I think that this stuff is confusing and over complicates what is a very simple exercise.  Lots of people that read these threads are relatively new to golf and I think it is valuable for people to see that there are other ways to play and learn. 

No, everyone does not need to think the same as I do.  Far from it.  But there is value is appreciating that for a significant number of people, understanding the theory of the golf swing bears no real relationship to being able to play well.  

When you evangalise about these things in the way that you do, I feel there is some use in putting forward a counter argument. I appreciate this vexes you a little and am sorry if this has become a problem.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I think it is valuable for people to see that there are other ways to play and learn.
		
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Discuss those ways....... I'm all ears. 

A player has a 54 inch chest and has trouble hitting a push-draw.... what's his options Snelly?


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			1905 ....at about 2.31pm, just after sandwiches :thup:


The last few posts reminded me of something I read on golfWRX so I'll quote it here......
		
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I'm not really a fan of the piano analogy. I doubt very much that the average pianist spends hours wondering how best to make the index finger hit the key. It's a relatively simple manoeuvre, that doesn't really compare to the backswing. However, the ability to play an instrument beautifully, without knowing how to read music maybe is an equally tenuous comparison. A lot of people will really struggle to swing the club with all the swing thoughts that are sometimes promoted. I have a genuine issue with "paralysis by analysis". I don't doubt the validity of your knowledge. I do believe (in my opinion) that most golfers don't really need to know it. :thup:


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			A lot of people will really struggle to swing the club with all the swing thoughts that are sometimes promoted. I have a genuine issue with "paralysis by analysis". I don't doubt the validity of your knowledge. I do believe (in my opinion) that most golfers don't really need to know it. :thup:
		
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That may be the case... but someone has to know it, else we could just scrap golf instruction period and go with the hit and hope method. The same would go for piano instructors who teach you which finger to use to hit which keys.......


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## Snelly (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Discuss those ways....... I'm all ears. 

A player has a 54 inch chest and has trouble hitting a push-draw.... what's his options Snelly?
		
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Not sure what a push draw is. But I would say to him don't worry about it.  Jack Nicklaus didn't draw the ball either. Neither did Monty.  Concentrate on getting the ball round without a draw and focus on course management and your short game.  Play lots. You will get better.  And lastly, eat less pies and do a bit more exercise.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

Snelly said:



			And lastly, eat less pies and do a bit more exercise.
		
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Nice. I'll pass that on.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			That may be the case... but someone has to know it, else we could just scrap golf instruction period and go with the hit and hope method. The same would go for piano instructors who teach you which finger to use to hit which keys.......
		
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Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.
		
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I totally agree... but doesn't that quite simply come back to 'don't read what doesn't interest you'?

Learning piano doesn't interest me, if someone posts a thread about it I won't be reading it. Posts about 'ladies shrubbery' however.... 

I have no issue if people choose not to read the posts I start/write. I don't think I force anyone. If you have an opinion then you should contribute it, if not then click on the thread about 'which is the best ball for a 22 h/capper' and contribute on that one :mmm:


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## Snelly (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.
		
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I am in full agreement with this. 

My view is that in golf, you need to be taught stance, grip, swing tempo and etiquette. You can't play the game without this.  The rest needs to be learned through doing and self learning.  Doing what works and stopping what doesn't.  The odd lesson here and there is fine to ensure you are doing the basics correctly.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I totally agree... but doesn't that quite simply come back to 'don't read what doesn't interest you'?

Learning piano doesn't interest me, if someone posts a thread about it I won't be reading it. Posts about 'ladies shrubbery' however.... 

I have no issue if people choose not to read the posts I start/write. I don't think I force anyone. If you have an opinion then you should contribute it, if not then click on the thread about 'which is the best ball for a 22 h/capper' and contribute on that one :mmm:
		
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I thought that this was a discussion that I was contributing to.  I never said you didn't have a right to post your comments. I discussed their use to most golfers via a public forum. If you would like to restrict my access to certain areas, then please forward me a list of topics you think I should contribute to on a daily basis. If you would like any background info that will help you to refine your choices, then I'll happily pm you my golfing history. Oh, and most of this post was tongue in cheek before anyone thinks I'm being facetious.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Other than that little aberration, he is right though. As interesting as the debate is, it's all a bit pointless for 99.99999% of golfers throughout the world. The shape of the shot you hit is vastly more important than its name.
		
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Agree - bit like when I'm in the the local DIY store and my Mrs (looking at paint say) asks me 'what colour is that?'.  All I can say is 'that colour'.  What you call it doesn't matter - probably why Farrow & Ball paints have daft names like Elephant Breath.  The colour you see is what matters NOT what it is called.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			I thought that this was a discussion that I was contributing to.  I never said you didn't have a right to post your comments. I discussed their use to most golfers via a public forum. If you would like to restrict my access to certain areas, then please forward me a list of topics you think I should contribute to on a daily basis. If you would like any background info that will help you to refine your choices, then I'll happily pm you my golfing history. Oh, and most of this post was tongue in cheek before anyone thinks I'm being facetious.
		
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My posts wasn't a dig at you :thup: it was multi-directional :mmm:..... let me reword it for you....




			I have no issue if people choose not to read the posts I start/write. I don't think I force anyone. If *someone has* an opinion then *they* should contribute it, if not then click on the thread about 'which is the best ball for a 22 h/capper' and contribute on that one.
		
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I have no bones with your replies, content or contribution to this or any other thread. I hope that's cleared that up  :thup:


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## One Planer (Dec 6, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I am in full agreement with this. 

My view is that in golf, you need to be taught stance, grip, swing tempo and *etiquette*. You can't play the game without this.
		
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While I agree, some people never learn this bit.


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## garyinderry (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.
		
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what is the 4 terms?   i would say i have 6 and thats keeping it simple.

fade, draw,slight push,slight pull and then when i over do it slice and hook!


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

I have 4.... push-draw, push-fade, block and pull.... I don't ever hook or slice it ....... but when I do I don't have  a word for it... well not one that's forum friendly


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2012)

I have 3. The push fade, the argggghh and the xxxx off Stannard


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## CMAC (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I have 4.... push-draw, push-fade, block and pull.... I don't ever hook or slice it ....... but when I do I don't have  a word for it... well not one that's forum friendly 

Click to expand...

what about that beautiful shot the laser arrow straight drive that has a slight draw near the end? yes I know if you watched it with a super slow-mo camera it would show the spin is imparted due to the path being ever so slightly in-to-out.

a straight push -that many do- is nearly always just a push...
if it fades at the end we dont usually bother re-saying "oops its a push fade"
similar comment for a slight pull that morphs into a draw.

So when I'm on the course and my partners hit anything but a top or duff I'll normally say "Good shot" and might even follow up with "and a lovely draw on that one too"


Personally I love everything to do with the technical aspects of the swing as I want to improve and if I don't know what could have possibly gone wrong or why the ball behaved as it did I can't amend or fix it....or attempt to fix it.


P.S I enjoy your postings James and commend the way you handle some quite derisory comments, keep it up, makes the forum an interesting place and if no-one gets personal or huffy we will all learn something.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Isn't the dark green line of grass by Tiger's feet pointing pretty much down the centre of the fairway? Meaning Tiger is most definately aiming left. The camera is also pretty much directly behind Tiger's aim line, that's how it looks to me anyway.
		
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Missed this, I agree... I neither manipulated the video...... or the commentary


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## jimbob.someroo (Dec 6, 2012)

Interesting read (all 17 pages of it!) For me, the push/pull aspect of a shot is simply whether it started left or right of the intended target line. If it then moves further right/left then the fade/draw/slice/hook aspect comes in. It's just always the way I'd referred to it. A shot starting left and going much further left due to spin will be known as a pull hook'.

I think it's important to know whether or not the ball is at least starting on the intended target line. 

If I'm playing a 175 yard par three with the flag on the right and no real hazards, I'll hit a 9 (read 6) iron aiming left of the green with my feet and body, push it so it starts on the left edge of the green and then fades further towards the pin. For me, that is a push-fade. I find this relatively easy to control and so will prefer this to trying to hit it dead straight where I've got a 'double-miss'. 

A shot aimed at the centre of the green and moving slightly right is just a fade. 

Just my two-cents, and agree that it's not for everyone, but seems to work for me


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Missed this, I agree... I neither manipulated the video...... or the commentary 

Click to expand...

Ok, I'm back in the room, not really pointy fingering or huffing either.

James, This is the way I see it, if you dont agree thats fine but please dont make derisory comments because I happen to have a different opinion.  I didnt say you manipulated the video, I suggested you were manipulating your description of Tigers swing.

To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			My posts wasn't a dig at you :thup: it was multi-directional :mmm:..... let me reword it for you....



I have no bones with your replies, content or contribution to this or any other thread. I hope that's cleared that up  :thup:
		
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James. You are without doubt one of the most interesting posters on this forum. If I was to discount what you post, I would be depriving myself of some fantastic knowledge. I know that you don't mean any insult, as I hope you know that I don't mean to disrespect your postings. I hope we can play together one day as I know I would learn more from you, than you from me. :cheers:


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			what is the 4 terms?   i would say i have 6 and thats keeping it simple.

fade, draw,slight push,slight pull and then when i over do it slice and hook!
		
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I have fade, draw, power fade, power draw. Everything else is an inconsistent mistake that does not deserve a name. Only a muttered expletive that would shock a sailor.


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## Val (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Ok, I'm back in the room, not really pointy fingering or huffing either.

James, This is the way I see it, if you dont agree thats fine but please dont make derisory comments because I happen to have a different opinion.  I didnt say you manipulated the video, I suggested you were manipulating your description of Tigers swing.

To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
		
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Good post :thup:


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## Stuey01 (Dec 6, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			I have fade, draw, power fade, power draw.
		
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What is the difference between the power and normal variants?  
Is power fade a euphemism for enormous slice?  And power draw a duck hook?  I'm being flippant but am genuinely interested in the answer.


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## USER1999 (Dec 6, 2012)

Stuey01 said:



			What is the difference between the power and normal variants?  
Is power fade a euphemism for enormous slice?  And power draw a duck hook?  I'm being flippant but am genuinely interested in the answer.
		
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Normally a so called power fade is a push fade, as it is hit with an in to out swing. A fade hit by an out to in swing is a weaker shot. Hence the belief that fading the ball leads to a loss of distance compared to a draw, because most people fade by chopping across the ball, out to in.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Normally a so called power fade is a push fade, as it is hit with an in to out swing. A fade hit by an out to in swing is a weaker shot. Hence the belief that fading the ball leads to a loss of distance compared to a draw, because most people fade by chopping across the ball, out to in.
		
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Hitting in to out is chopping across the ball as well.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Ok, I'm back in the room, not really pointy fingering or huffing either.

James, This is the way I see it, if you dont agree thats fine but please dont make derisory comments because I happen to have a different opinion.  I didnt say you manipulated the video, I suggested you were manipulating your description of Tigers swing.

To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
		
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I think you are confusing the 'Push/Pull = bad shot' with the 'push/pull = swing-path' descriptions. In the former, the description is about the results, and it probably does mean there's a fault; in the latter, it's merely a description of the swing path, relative to 'target' and may be deliberate, so not a fault.

If your 'straight' shot is perfectly in-square-in then, on the shaped shots, you'd be hitting push-draw and pull-fade - intended shots, not faults. You are manipulating the shot, but in a purposeful method, rather than as a fault. You are absolutely correct to be aiming the club-face right/left of the target, rather than directly at it as prescribed by the 'old/bad' ball flight laws.


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## Region3 (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
		
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I know this was directed towards James, but I disagree and would like to explain why.

Using the following as an example: Flag on the right of the green, bunker on the left, so you want to start the ball at the left side of the green and have it move towards the flag.

As I understand it, I have 2 choices...
1) Align myself and the club to the left side of the green, and swing across the ball from in to out (towards the bunker).
2) Align myself to the bunker, my club to the left side of the green and swing normally.

Maybe I'm not as comfortable with my swing yet as others are, but to me it seems much simpler to make all the adjustments when I have plenty of time to do so (at address) and use my normal swing, than set up normally and try to manipulate the path while I'm swinging.


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Ok, I'm back in the room, not really pointy fingering or huffing either.
		
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Glad you're back in the room.... :thup::thup:


Now where were we............? 





(Gary - I think you've got your *in-to-out* mixed with your *out-to-in*)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm a simple golfer.  Fade and draw are deliberate shots - trying to define sub-categories of either is fine if you have nothing better to do - but pretty pointless.  Slice and hook are not deliberate. If something is not deliberate then it is the result of a fault setup or swing and whatever happens happens - and no point in trying to *define *it further.  Try and analyse what actually happened to give you a clue where you went wrong.


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## Region3 (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			(Gary - I think you've got your *in-to-out* mixed with your *out-to-in*)
		
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You're right. It won't let me edit it now either 

I knew what I meant


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## User20205 (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
		
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Snelly is perfectly within his right to question if knowing the principles of the theory actually make for better golf. I reckon that is a valid part of the debate 

it's a little dismissive to say 'don't read it' on an open forum. 

there are some really good golfers on here who enjoy a technical debate, some others who, imo, see it as a magic bullet. Something to latch onto in preference to grasping the basics, having any hand/eye coordination 

but seeing as I'm not supposed to be reading this, never mind posting. I won't mention that to my mind it's a little 'Emperors new clothes'


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## Stuey01 (Dec 6, 2012)

Region3 said:



			I know this was directed towards James, but I disagree and would like to explain why.

Using the following as an example: Flag on the right of the green, bunker on the left, so you want to start the ball at the left side of the green and have it move towards the flag.

As I understand it, I have 2 choices...
1) Align myself and the club to the left side of the green, and swing across the ball from in to out (towards the bunker).
2) Align myself to the bunker, my club to the left side of the green and swing normally.

Maybe I'm not as comfortable with my swing yet as others are, but to me it seems much simpler to make all the adjustments when I have plenty of time to do so (at address) and use my normal swing, than set up normally and try to manipulate the path while I'm swinging.
		
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If I've got this right I think it's:

3)Align your club on the bunker, and your body even further left than that.  then the ball will start on the bunk and move right toward the flag.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2012)

therod said:



			Snelly is perfectly within his right to question if knowing the principles of the theory actually make for better golf. I reckon that is a valid part of the debate 

it's a little dismissive to say 'don't read it' on an open forum. 

there are some really good golfers on here who enjoy a technical debate, some others who, imo, see it as a magic bullet. Something to latch onto in preference to grasping the basics, having any hand/eye coordination 

but seeing as I'm not supposed to be reading this, never mind posting. I won't mention that to my mind it's a little 'Emperors new clothes'
		
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I didn't mention Snelly anywhere, or any other individual come to that.   I was just saying that if people dont like reading debates on the technicalities of golf then they dont have to, there is no reason for it to  get up their noses.   I dont like Footy so I ignore any debates on it.   Taking up your own argument then I guess I am perfectly within my right to question if not knowing the principles of the theory actually make for worse golf.


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## User20205 (Dec 6, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Taking up your own argument then I guess I am perfectly within my right to question if not knowing the principles of the theory actually make for worse golf.
		
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perfectly within your right :thup:

I guess maybe the main issue is that we fall into maybe 3 categories . those that don't buy into the technicality, those that want to, but can't quite grasp it & those like yourself & James that are really passionate about it. Invariably it ends up the the final group discussing the different types of fade 

I can hit a fade with anything but driver on demand but I couldn't tell you if it was a pull fade, push fade, fade fade, slice fade etc etc etc I know it starts left & ends up right, (and is controlled)  Maybe I'm a worse golfer because of it, at least I have my sanity


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## richart (Dec 6, 2012)

therod said:



			I can hit a fade with anything but driver on demand but I couldn't tell you if it was a pull fade, push fade, fade fade, slice fade etc etc etc I know it starts left & ends up right, (and is controlled)  Maybe I'm a worse golfer because of it, at least I have my sanity 

Click to expand...

Not sure your shanks count as a fade on demand.


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## User20205 (Dec 6, 2012)

richart said:



			Not sure your shanks count as a fade on demand.

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yep. new ball flight laws dictate that if I stand open at 30* to target line, swing out to in along the line of my feet & present the hosel, the ball will fly off 45* to the right :thup:


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

Stuey01 said:



			If I've got this right I think it's:

3)Align your club on the bunker, and your body even further left than that.  then the ball will start on the bunk and move right toward the flag.
		
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Is correct Stuey... and so is No2 




			2) Align myself to the bunker, my club to the left side of the green and swing normally.
		
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(subject to correct impact conditions in both cases)


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## Pro Zach (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Not sure it's brainwashing, the ideal shot is a push-draw (especially with an iron)... if you can't do that OR prefer to hit a fade then it should be a PUSH-fade. Either way it's a push... (the ball is hit with a swing that comes from the inside and *pushes* the ball to the right).
		
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 During this push to the right caused by the swing path, if I have the face open to this path that will cause a push fade, and if closed to the path, a push draw?...........


  â€¦.....and isn't this the 'old' ball flight laws?


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			During this push to the right caused by the swing path, if I have the face open to this path that will cause a push fade, and if closed to the path, a push draw?...........


 â€¦.....and isn't this the 'old' ball flight laws.
		
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Good shout... it wasn't written very clearly and makes it seem that I was suggesting the path pushes the ball to the right. It should say that BOTH shots are pushes, and the path comes from the inside (in relation to the player, I hasten to add).

No, it's not old laws as that would say to swing *more* right to start the ball *more* right.. which wouldn't work if you were trying to hit a push-fade unless you had the face severely wide open..... 

(All things being equal and inside path *does* hit the ball to the right but only 15% in comparisson to the clubface. On a swing path with a 0 degree HSP (zero'd out path) the ball should be struck before the point of tangency and subsequently (without any manipulation) the clubface would be pointing a fraction to the right and the descending AoA (if any) adds a further movement to the right, so all balls would effectively be pushed to the right with an inside path into the ball, such that to hit a straight shot the HSP actually needs to be a few degrees left aligned...... don't know if that helps?)


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Good shout... it wasn't written very clearly and makes it seem that I was suggesting the path pushes the ball to the right. It should say that BOTH shots are pushes, and the path comes from the inside (in relation to the player, I hasten to add).

No, it's not old laws as that would say to swing *more* right to start the ball *more* right.. which wouldn't work if you were trying to hit a push-fade unless you had the face severely wide open..... 

(All things being equal and inside path *does* hit the ball to the right but only 15% in comparisson to the clubface. On a swing path with a 0 degree HSP (zero'd out path) the ball should be struck before the point of tangency and subsequently (without any manipulation) the clubface would be pointing a fraction to the right and the descending AoA (if any) adds a further movement to the right, so all balls would effectively be pushed to the right with an inside path into the ball, such that to hit a straight shot the HSP actually needs to be a few degrees left aligned...... don't know if that helps?) 

Click to expand...

Jeez!


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## lobthewedge (Dec 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Good shout... it wasn't written very clearly and makes it seem that I was suggesting the path pushes the ball to the right. It should say that BOTH shots are pushes, and the path comes from the inside (in relation to the player, I hasten to add).

No, it's not old laws as that would say to swing *more* right to start the ball *more* right.. which wouldn't work if you were trying to hit a push-fade unless you had the face severely wide open..... 

(All things being equal and inside path *does* hit the ball to the right but only 15% in comparisson to the clubface. On a swing path with a 0 degree HSP (zero'd out path) the ball should be struck before the point of tangency and subsequently (without any manipulation) the clubface would be pointing a fraction to the right and the descending AoA (if any) adds a further movement to the right, so all balls would effectively be pushed to the right with an inside path into the ball, such that to hit a straight shot the HSP actually needs to be a few degrees left aligned...... don't know if that helps?) 

Click to expand...

Eh?


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2012)

^
^
I thought exactly that when reading the swing weight thread :angry:


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			(All things being equal and inside path *does* hit the ball to the right but only 15% in comparisson to the clubface. On a swing path with a 0 degree HSP (zero'd out path) the ball should be struck before the point of tangency and subsequently (without any manipulation) the clubface would be pointing a fraction to the right and the descending AoA (if any) adds a further movement to the right, so all balls would effectively be pushed to the right with an inside path into the ball, such that to hit a straight shot the HSP actually needs to be a few degrees left aligned...... *don't know if that helps*?) 

Click to expand...

James. You are a very nasty guy!

You've just added another dimension!

I don't believe you are masochistic enough to explain D-Plane! Do you want to buy some hula hoops?


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 7, 2012)

After reading this thread I have decided to just step up to a ball and whack it, whatever happens is destiny and I will just deal with it as it comes...

If through my practice I end up being a fader, great I will go with it, but if I draw, thats just perfect too.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2012)

ScienceBoy said:



			After reading this thread I have decided to just step up to a ball and whack it, whatever happens is destiny and I will just deal with it as it comes...

If through my practice I end up being a fader, great I will go with it, but if I draw, thats just perfect too.
		
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After reading this thread I have decided to take up bowls instead of golf.


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## upsidedown (Dec 7, 2012)

We took out a friend of ours for her first ever time on a golf course, after having lessons at a range.

Grip. Poor
Stance. Open
Swing. Ungainly
Shot shape. All over the shop.
Her enjoyment. Immense .


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## joe nustedt (Dec 7, 2012)

upsidedown said:



			We took out a friend of ours for her first ever time on a golf course, after having lessons at a range.

Grip. Poor
Stance. Open
Swing. Ungainly
Shot shape. All over the shop.
Her enjoyment. Immense .
		
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Good point.  I think sometimes as golfers we need to stop worrying about what is wrong, and focus on enjoying what is right.


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## JustOne (Dec 7, 2012)

joe nustedt said:



			Good point.  I think sometimes as golfers we need to stop worrying about what is wrong, and focus on enjoying what is right.
		
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Depends how good you are, ....or how good you want to get.

My missus throws darts at a dart board down the pub and misses the entire board quite often!!!.......she enjoys it... but that's not how rubbish I want to be..... I'm working on my 9 dart finish! 

Lot's of people on this forum have done enough in their golf and aren't really interested in getting any better. Lot's of talk of course, but no real goal to actually get any better. That's their perrogative, but not everyone's.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 7, 2012)

There is a small handful of good golfers on here that I would take technical advice from......and a large number that talk absolute crap.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 7, 2012)

joe nustedt said:



			Good point.  I think sometimes as golfers we need to stop worrying about what is wrong, and focus on enjoying what is right.
		
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What is right about...

Grip. Poor
Stance. Open
Swing. Ungainly
Shot shape. All over the shop.


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## joe nustedt (Dec 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Depends how good you are, ....or how good you want to get.
		
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I disagree.  In fact, in my mind, the best way to improve both physically and mentally is to focus on perfecting the elements of your game that you are good at/enjoy (the 2 often being in correlation), and to pay less attention to your perceived flaws.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			What is right about...

Grip. Poor
Stance. Open
Swing. Ungainly
Shot shape. All over the shop.




Click to expand...

I enjoy it!!


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## JustOne (Dec 7, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			What is right about...

Grip. Poor
Stance. Open
Swing. Ungainly
Shot shape. All over the shop.




Click to expand...

Oi! Stop knocking Homer's swing!


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## duncan mackie (Dec 7, 2012)

joe nustedt said:



			I disagree.  In fact, in my mind, the best way to improve both physically and mentally is to focus on perfecting the elements of your game that you are good at/enjoy (the 2 often being in correlation), and to pay less attention to your perceived flaws.
		
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bit of a cheap 'perceived' in that sentence - implies that they aren't actually flaws, in which case they don't require attention...so paying them attention is irrelevant.

which gets you back to either paying attention to weaknesses that do cost you shots, or opportunities to improve your scores.

it's oft' said that you can tell the handicaps of golfers discussing their game in the bar afterwards; double digit handicaps will be smiling and discussing their good shots, single figure guys will be discussing the missed oportunities - both discussions will be regardless of the actual scoring!  It's mainly because the single figure guys are forced to recognise that their score is a function of the cost of mistakes, and they expect to make good shots every time they play.

it's also said that you don't play competitive golf for 'fun'!


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## joe nustedt (Dec 7, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			bit of a cheap 'perceived' in that sentence - implies that they aren't actually flaws, in which case they don't require attention...so paying them attention is irrelevant.
		
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Fair point.  What I was trying to imply though, was that often we exaggerate our flaws and focus on them too much to the detriment of the positive points of our game.



duncan mackie said:



			it's oft' said that you can tell the handicaps of golfers discussing their game in the bar afterwards; double digit handicaps will be smiling and discussing their good shots, single figure guys will be discussing the missed oportunities
		
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That's us double-digit simpletons!  I mean, I'm amazed any morning I wake up and haven't rolled out of the bed! 



duncan mackie said:



			it's also said that you don't play competitive golf for 'fun'!
		
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True.  Fun is for the fair.  But I can't believe a player, at any level, doesn't play better when he is enjoying the game.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 7, 2012)

joe nustedt said:



			........ I can't believe a player, at any level, doesn't play better when he is enjoying the game.
		
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here we can totally agree


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## JustOne (Dec 7, 2012)

joe nustedt said:



			That's us double-digit simpletons!  I mean, I'm amazed any morning I wake up and haven't rolled out of the bed! 

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21 posts since joining in July... you should post *more* with beauties like that! :thup::cheers:

Funny


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## joe nustedt (Dec 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			21 posts since joining in July... you should post *more* with beauties like that! :thup::cheers:

Funny 

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Don't worry, one of my new years resolutions is to be more involved in golf, including posting on forums.  The other, incidentally, is to stop talking to myself in public.  It's becoming epidemic.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2012)

drive4show said:



			There is a small handful of good golfers on here that I would take technical advice from......and a large number that talk absolute crap.
		
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And how far up your horse do you sit?


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## JustOne (Dec 9, 2012)

Yeah!..... and what colour is it? :mmm:


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2012)

joe nustedt said:



			In fact, in my mind, the best way to improve both physically and mentally is to focus on perfecting the elements of your game that you are good at/enjoy (the 2 often being in correlation), and to pay less attention to your perceived flaws.
		
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It might be the 'best' way, for you. I happen to disagree.

And 'best' isn't always 'easiest' either. Thus the decision of whether to go for a 'quick fix' or a 'rebuild'. There are lots of other factors to consider, like whether the risk of being a complete hacker for some period is worth the effort.

There's also the 'law of diminishing returns' to consider. As you approach 'perfection' with your accuracy, does it really matter that you are 2 yards to the right of where you want to be if you are still safe and on the fairway. That's not what is costing you shots. The inability (interpret as 'perceived flaws') to get up and down from inside 80 yards will almost certainly be costing you more, so I believe it's more effective to work on that part of the game.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Yeah!..... and what colour is it? :mmm:




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Probably Brown.


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