# Stack and Tilt?



## golf_bug (Apr 3, 2009)

I was looking at the Golf-Digest web site yesterday when I came across a feature on the 'Stack and Tilt' swing (I am at work so don't have the link, but will post it later). This is apparantly a new swing technique which several tour pro's are using. However it is said to provide better consistency for amateur golfers, but will result in a loss of distance. 

The basic dynamics of this swing technique appear to contradict the basic fundamentals of the 'normal' golf swing which most of us have been taught. For example:

1. At set up, weight favours the front foot (55% to 45%) so that you 'stack' your shoulders over the ball. This is the same for any club.

2. Keep majority of weight on the front foot during the back swing. At the top of the swing, spine should be tilted towards the target i.e. the reverse pivot we are all told is fatal!

3. Start the downswing with a signficant lateral shift of the hips towards the target. This causes the spine to straighten, then 'tilt' away from the target line. Again....concepts which are strictly taboo in the normal golf swing.

4. More and more weight should be shifted to the front foot in the downswing, ending with 90% on the front foot. 

Has anyone heard of, or indeed used this swing technique? Does it work? If it does provide amateurs with better consistency, why are PGA Pro's teaching us the 'difficult' swing?!


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## RGDave (Apr 3, 2009)

If I could find my post a few months ago about this, I'd copy and paste my reply.
I spent last summer fiddling around with some of the ideas of stack and tilt...my short irons were phenomenal, the rest of my game fell apart....big time....
I guess if you are a powerful player and prepared to work through the whole idea, it could be could.

I'm not an expert but it seems to me that both classic and S&T swings both take hard work and talent.....if S&T was a short cut to quick and accurate golf everyone would be teaching it.


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## Cernunnos (Apr 4, 2009)

Stack & Tilt is a system very popular amoungst American amatures especially on one forum I wont mention right now. TBH I'm in two minds about the whole idea of Stack & Tilt. It certainly works for some. By all means try it if you think you can get something positive from it, but really If I had to recommend something I'd say leave it well alone & don't bother with it.


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## RGDave (Apr 4, 2009)

.. but really If I had to recommend something I'd say leave it well alone & don't bother with it.
		
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Yes, I'm of a mind to agree with you.

What "got me into it" was reading about swinging the club without any weight shift. I've always tended to over-do the move to the right and then struggled to get back. At it's worst, everything has gone way out and from there you need to be good to get back to the right place. I've watched many good players (including some forum guys) move a fair bit BUT then come so well through the ball that i.m.o. they are actually "increasing" their chances of a great strike because through the hitting area, the whole body (not the feet of course!) is moving well towards the front foot and making a great "flat spot" though impact at exactly the time to pick off the ball.

S&T will stop this dead (probably?). OK, so short clubs have a predictable "place" at the bottom of the arc, but what about woods and sweeping-type shots??

All very interesting....


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## golf_bug (Apr 4, 2009)

I tried the S&T technique at the range and got the shanks....thanks Golf Digest!!!!


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## JustOne (Apr 6, 2009)

I was looking at the Golf-Digest web site yesterday when I came across a feature on the 'Stack and Tilt' swing (I am at work so don't have the link, but will post it later). This is apparantly a new swing technique which several tour pro's are using. However it is said to provide better consistency for amateur golfers, but will result in a loss of distance. 

The basic dynamics of this swing technique appear to contradict the basic fundamentals of the 'normal' golf swing which most of us have been taught. For example:

1. At set up, weight favours the front foot (55% to 45%) so that you 'stack' your shoulders over the ball. This is the same for any club.

2. Keep majority of weight on the front foot during the back swing. At the top of the swing, spine should be tilted towards the target *i.e. the reverse pivot we are all told is fatal!*

3. Start the downswing with a signficant lateral shift of the hips towards the target. This causes the spine to straighten, then 'tilt' away from the target line. Again....concepts which are strictly taboo in the normal golf swing.

4. More and more weight should be shifted to the front foot in the downswing, ending with 90% on the front foot. 

Has anyone heard of, or indeed used this swing technique? Does it work? If it does provide amateurs with better consistency, why are PGA Pro's teaching us the 'difficult' swing?!
		
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I switched to stack and tilt. I would say that it's not great for high handicappers - you need to be breaking into single figures and have at least a basic understanding of 'how to swing the club' to make the switch and it's also not for people who have a tendancy to throw the club from the top and cut across the ball.

It's definately NOT a reverse pivot. In the reverse pivot as you rotate left your weight goes to the right (ie: you fall back) in Stack and Tilt your weight moves left through impact.

It creates consistant striking as you are a) centered over the ball at impact b) hitting slightly down onto the ball instead of trying to scoop it in anyway.

The only thing that feels odd is that you kinda lift at impact, almost like standing up - but you can really rip it.

A few things to watch - set up with a bit of weight to the left, don't move any extra weight to the right foot during takeaway, feel your left shoulder turn underneath you (not to the right).As you turn feel your right hip pull AWAY from where it started by an inch or so you are effectively moving even more weight left. Your left knee flexes but keep some tension in it. Turn hard and rip it pushing your groin through and to the target.

Hope this helps 

Regards
JustOneUK


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## JustOne (Apr 6, 2009)

I've always tended to over-do the move to the right and then struggled to get back. At it's worst, everything has gone way out and from there you need to be good to get back to the right place. I've watched many good players (including some forum guys) move a fair bit BUT then come so well through the ball that i.m.o. they are actually "increasing" their chances of a great strike because through the hitting area, the whole body (not the feet of course!) is moving well towards the front foot and making a great "flat spot" though impact at exactly the time to pick off the ball.

S&T will stop this dead (probably?). OK, so short clubs have a predictable "place" at the bottom of the arc, but what about woods and sweeping-type shots??
		
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Firstly - don't over do your movement to the right on ANY swing, you have to then make it back to the ball, strike, and get nicely followed through to the left...a lot of work!
If your timing is spot on you'll hit a good shot (as your friends did) if your timing is off you'll thin, fat and blade the ball which isn't pretty.

All clubs should be hit at the bottom of the swing arc, apart from the driver which should be hit just on the way up.

I always found that the 'flat spot' that you are referring to made it HARDER to focus on hitting down on the ball...in fact it makes you want to try and get the ball airborne because you feel like you're coming in flat -  so then you're thinning more shots and even leaning back (reverse pivot), not to mention opening the club face to get a bit more loft!!! All very scary. Forget the sweeping shots.. hit down onto the ball by not moving to the right at all - or at least limit your movement.

As soon as you move right (even 1 centimeter) you've got to get back to the ball and that's a lot harder than having it there in the same spot everytime. I don't think there will be any/many golf pro's that would advocate a movement to the right.

All in my humble opinion of course 

Regards
JustOneUK.


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## Cernunnos (Apr 6, 2009)

.. but really If I had to recommend something I'd say leave it well alone & don't bother with it.
		
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Yes, I'm of a mind to agree with you.

What "got me into it" was reading about swinging the club without any weight shift. I've always tended to over-do the move to the right and then struggled to get back. At it's worst, everything has gone way out and from there you need to be good to get back to the right place. I've watched many good players (including some forum guys) move a fair bit BUT then come so well through the ball that i.m.o. they are actually "increasing" their chances of a great strike because through the hitting area, the whole body (not the feet of course!) is moving well towards the front foot and making a great "flat spot" though impact at exactly the time to pick off the ball.

S&T will stop this dead (probably?). OK, so short clubs have a predictable "place" at the bottom of the arc, but what about woods and sweeping-type shots??

All very interesting....
		
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Yes good points. Many of us Amatures can suffer from too much slide rather than weight transfer & re-connecting with a firm base & balance is one way & hopefully instead of stack it'll become more coil & flow instead of tilt. The firsm balance is a good key to return to when things have perhaps gotten a bit loose.

I supose its better to loose 5 or 10 yards for a little while, but as for the full technique of stack & tilt, well as pointed out unless timing is spot on & timing is always important, then well we have problems.

I've been struggling with a bit of reverse pivot recently which I supose because of a long winter layoff & not enough practice, is esentially giving me some items of the one thing I'm saying not to play around with.

Also not good when I'm wanting to get away from being over technical about swing or aproach to the game... damn.

As I say I think its a good few points.


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## Redwood (Apr 7, 2009)

Ask yourself, how many Pro's are using 'Stack and Tilt', and of those that are, how many regularly win tournaments?  I think that may provide the answer to what I think of 'Stack and Tilt'!!


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## Adjani (Apr 7, 2009)

Try hitting a high draw when your stacking and tilting


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## JustOne (Apr 17, 2009)

Try hitting a high draw when your stacking and tilting   

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Hehe... ask anyone who fades, slices, hooks, fats or thins to hit a high draw


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## screw696 (May 3, 2009)

I think that you guys need to understand the basic principles of the golf swing rather than tie yourselves up in knots. Look at footage of Hogan and perhaps learn!!!!!
Stack and Tilt....Codswallop!!!!!!!!


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## bobmac (May 3, 2009)

I think that you guys need to understand the basic principles of the golf swing rather than tie yourselves up in knots. Look at footage of Hogan and perhaps learn!!!!!
Stack and Tilt....Codswallop!!!!!!!!
		
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Don't sit on the fence. Come on tell us what you really think    
Btw, is that a 5.5 driver in your Signature?


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## screw696 (May 4, 2009)

I think that you should use proven techniques that enhance your game. Golf is a hard enough game to master without swapping and changing styles. It took Faldo 2 years to flatten his swing by 2". It doesnt happen overnight. Stick with what you know and what you are familiar with. Stack and tilt.....No!!!!!
Yes I have a 5.5 Degree Ping Tisi. Do you want to buy? Or shall I sell on ebay!!!!!!!!


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## bobmac (May 4, 2009)

Wow, I thought it was a typo. I knew that Ping made a 7 deg (used to have one) but didnt know they made a 5.5. Do you hit it well?


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## JustOne (May 5, 2009)

I think that you guys need to understand the basic principles of the golf swing rather than tie yourselves up in knots. Look at footage of Hogan and perhaps learn!!!!!
Stack and Tilt....Codswallop!!!!!!!!
		
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I like Hogans swing. 

I even watched this Hogan video which references stack and tilt.. reverse pivot, blah blah etc.. (I'm sure you must've seen it...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4lNNXcZE90
...but Hogan's swing couldn't be described as conventional.

Right at the top of Hogans swing he has a nice little move to his left hand side, (which people mistake for a reverse pivot but COULD be akin to getting a little more stacked over the ball), slides his hips hard left on the down swing (also in stack and tilt). His finishing position doesn't look too disimilar to stack and tilt either...

As far as I'm concerned he's kind of hitting stack and tilt without the tilt (as he rotates his spine away from the target.. just).

He looks pretty stacked over his left foot here at the top of his backswing wouldn't you say?







It's also not disimilar to Nicklaus who also had a shimmy to the left at the top of his backswing, big big big hip slide and 'reverse C finish'. Neither could be described as conventional in my opinion.


Here's a vid. I'd say 90% of golfers are stuck in the 80's swing that is shown in this clip as there is such a huge following of the exagerated hip movement to the right in every golfer you see over the age of 20.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cov8R5Axt4k
If nothing else it's an interesting watch.

I'd be interested to hear what YOU have to say about Hogans swing that you like so much.............???

regards...


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## Cernunnos (May 5, 2009)

I think that you guys need to understand the basic principles of the golf swing rather than tie yourselves up in knots. Look at footage of Hogan and perhaps learn!!!!!
Stack and Tilt....Codswallop!!!!!!!!
		
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Oh I think its *not* worth considering either. But can understand the use for it with some. Though as I mentioned earlier in the thread I thought it was a dangerous route to go down

As per Hogan I quite agree... he had a lovely swing... Not totally textbook either, even though he has his own textbook...rofl  

But I do suggest you read back through the whole thread as I am quite anti Stack'n'Tilt & hence probably the wrong person to actually make the reply to  I was simply showing that I could understand the use of it for some, but I really have mey reservations.

I'd normally codswallop it too  But we all have to have an open mind sometimes for the sake of others...

btw you know which way the fence is, as I think you fell off it...rofl. 

btw in reference to my own current swing its simply a case of reintroducing suficient coilafter the prelonged layoff


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## Cernunnos (May 5, 2009)

I think that you guys need to understand the basic principles of the golf swing rather than tie yourselves up in knots. Look at footage of Hogan and perhaps learn!!!!!
Stack and Tilt....Codswallop!!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Don't sit on the fence. Come on tell us what you really think    
Btw, is that a 5.5 driver in your Signature?
		
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I notice he never answered your question Bob

Not sure that model of Ping driver would be legal in comp play as I think didn't it have a Hot face.


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## JustOne (May 5, 2009)

Cernunnos I'm not advocating stack and tilt and I certainly don't think it's for everyone. Stacking your weight on your left side was certainly an eye opener when I read about it I thought I just had to try it.

Right now I give it the thumbs up in terms of ball striking, I'm hitting longer and straighter than ever (started playing 15yrs ago), and I find that my back is more comfortable with it. The only issue I have is that I haven't yet found any pro's around who can check my swing and make sure that I'm doing exactly what I THINK I'm doing.

There's a lot of swings around right now which reference bracing the left side, I'm sure it has it's merits (see the Hogan pic) As I mentioned in my last post I happen to think the old 80's/90's swing of moving your weight (hip included!) to the right should be dead and buried... it's ruined millions of swings!

Computing is helping develop swings far better now than ever before. Viewing 10's of 1000's of swings easily on Youtube and measuring with software like V1 has helped to see what exactly is going on during the swing. That information was never readily available in the past. Stack and tilt takes some elements of great swings and biomechanics and fits them together in what can only be considered unorthadox - but it does seem to work. I'm pretty sure 3 tour players won with it in the space of just a few weeks.

all in my own opinion of course.


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## screw696 (May 5, 2009)

Yeah it goes miles. Also got 2 x 7 degree Ping tisi's. I think that I have a ping fetish. Got four sets of BeCu's.


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## Cernunnos (May 5, 2009)

JustOneUK... I'm not the one you need to convince of the merits...lol But thanks for the reply anyhow.

Personally I feel I strike better when I feel more planted on both feet & don't try for too much movement other than through the ball. And just so long as I don't overswing all is well. Not too sure I'd want to be stuck on that left/front foot other than with short game.

Only problem with the modern 80's 90's type swing you refer to & to be honest its probably more a 00's(noughtys) swing you refer to that is damaging to many people, its more the misconseption of the modern swing that is the problem. Too many people get so worked up abnout the weightshift that it becomes a slide rather than a movement of weight from one foot to the other. In other words many over exagerate the shift to create a slide, which is probably more damaging than any stack & tilt. That said I'm not sure I'd still advocate that either. But as I said before I can understand the logic, where S696 cannot.

There are many swings over the years & centuraries we could potentially look at & the current modern pro swing is the current culmination of all this.

Quite frankly I think more emphasis needs to be made of a good address, good alighnment, good stance & good posture. Get those right & no matter what you do in the swing, with the correct fundementals there is only so much to work on.


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## screw696 (May 7, 2009)

Hogans swing was simply two turns and a swish. Excellent work ethic. Didn't get bogged down in this stack and tilt rubbish.
Its not a hot face. Simply a legal Ping 5.5 Tisi Tec.
Whats your handicap? You certainly talk a good game!!!


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## Cernunnos (May 7, 2009)

Oh I very much doubt I'd be anywhere near as good as you matey...lol. Infact I know I won't be. As knowledge doesn't always translate into ability. Or should I say ability to put the knowledge into practice.

Doesn't Jiminez use Ping Tisi 3 & 5 woods.

Must say you do like a classy classic setup looking at what you've listed as the contents of your bag.

Anyway, as I say getting back to the swing issue. I like the description of two turns & a swish, which I have heard before, though in reality there'd be more going on than just this. And also describing a swing as two turns & a swish could describe a lot of swings with a lot of lea-way as regards to what actually goes on.

But as regards the Stack & Tilt method, which I'm not for or against, & quite frankly wouldn't want to get too bogged down with. Infact its not one of those things I'd really want to follow up on myself. However if someone feels it is helping them, then fine, but I do have my doubts about it.

I can see the theory of it might work, especially for short game. irony is even stack & tilt could be described as two turns & a swish too. Which shows how much ground that description covers. Though it remains a description of a golf swing I still like, because I do feel we can get overly bogged down with the technicalities of what goes into a golf swing, this swing or that swing, or some other kind of swing.

As I described in another thread I believe. If we get too technical it can become like painting by numbers, & that surely as anything stiffles any natural artistry in the game. That said & getting back to what I was on about in my previous post. Get the correct setup, with alighnment, grip & posture, then hopefully two turns should be all that is needed to create a personal golf swing.

My God I'm about to sound like a quote from that film Bagger Vance, where he goes on about finding your own personal swing (not a direct or exact quote btw). But in essence if you get the basics right & right for you, if it works, then why knock it.

I mean who knocks Jim Furyk's swing these days as it works.
Jeev Milka Singh has a swing that has a lot of faults, if you listen to pro's & what they descibe as right & wrong. Jeev has a lot of swing faults that we amatures are guilty of, even when we know we should correct them, but I've watched him play & although although consistency can be an occasional problem, he tends to repeat his swing & repeats his flightpath. I've been in the crowd next to the tee watching him & I actually think Jeev has a nice looking swing, yes we can see all the things our golf pro would go on about but it works & Jeev is still long with those drives & I had the privilide to see him get an Ace at the Belfry.But as I say to semi quote bagger Vance, its a swing he owns, its his & his alone. And again is two turns & a swish, much as Hogans was. They are different, but in simplicity follow what you are going on about.

This is why although I am cautious about stack & Tilt & cautious about some other fads, I can see that for some if could be of some use in some way or another.

Now lets talk Tiger. He has another very impressive swing, well after all he is the current world number one. but I've know many pro critics either heap praise or critism on his swing. Well its his swing & although it can get him into trouble off the tee when he carves it right. Times I've seen him get into real trouble on the television, into places most would find it hard to return double & triple bogey. Infact if we could site one person who has on one hand done so much for the game, but on the other so much to destroy the amatuer game its Tiger. How many amatuers & I'll raise my hand even though I've never really been a fan of his, have tried to put 110% into a swing with the obvious results. He's put it into the minds of many that they can do things they cannot.

As I say even if its a lesson we learn, every now & again we forget ourselves & instead of swinging within ourselves, go for it. Sometimes it'll pay off & we'll catch it just right, but we do instantly turn all these & any shots into high risk shots, just because instead of keeping it simple & what is ours.

Many site Ernie Els as someone to copy because of his tempo. He's been called the Big Easy. Now as a premis I really believe thats great, though even he has been guitly of being effected by the Tiger mentality, with again obvious results.

Anyway, I digress, but in the tangental thinking it does expand upon the main point & for this mere talentless anorak, who is itching to get a game in today, it does show that yes I agree with what you say & Hogan is a great example to follow, but he is only one of many great golfers with a simple attitude to the golf swing. Hogan overcame a lot to achive what he did too. I have nothing but admiration for his focus. In some respect he is one of those few that over the years are out of, or should I say ahead of their time.

Stack & Tilt as a Theory may not have existed in Hogans time, though I bet many will have gotten caught on their left side as part of their swing during his time.

In many respects I'd have prefered to have been around back then as no-one really got bogged down too much with techniques & technicallities, which I suspect is probably much of what you like in Hogans swing.

I was hoping to get back onto the main focus of the thread, but hey ho.


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