# Have you asked for your own Handicap to be cut?



## Fore (Feb 6, 2012)

Is it the done thing to ask for your own handicap to be cut under a rule 19 or should you wait and see what happens?


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## Doh (Feb 6, 2012)

I dont think there is a rule 19 anymore i believe its rule 23? Personally i would wait and see how you perform under competition conditions.


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## Fore (Feb 6, 2012)

Well in the last 6 times i have played, i have come 2nd overall twice (winning the division at the same time) in the monthly Stablefords (2 comps in 2 weeks). Won the swindle outright once, won the back nine twice and the front nine once. Although i have been cut 1.2 in the last few weeks i feel it should have been at least another stroke.
The word Bandit (in a nice way) has been uttered a couple of times and i have gone from being elated at winning or performing well to getting slightly embarressed now. An ex-captain suggested i approached the Handicap Secretary about a cut but i am just not sure if this would be the thing to do.
The upsurge in form has been down to new sticks and loads of practice to get used to them.


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## patricks148 (Feb 6, 2012)

What's your current handicap?

If you are high at the moment no doubt you will be improving all the time and though you will get called a bandit, if you are getting cut reg you will find your level soooner or later.

If you get an adjustment you could be missing out on getting your name on the odd trophy.


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## RichardC (Feb 6, 2012)

I thought that the computer picks up if you require an additional cut under rule 23.

Why don't you have a word with the Handicap Sec and see what he say's.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 6, 2012)

Fore said:



			Well in the last 6 times i have played, i have come 2nd overall twice (winning the division at the same time) in the monthly Stablefords (2 comps in 2 weeks). Won the swindle outright once, won the back nine twice and the front nine once. Although i have been cut 1.2 in the last few weeks i feel it should have been at least another stroke.
The word Bandit (in a nice way) has been uttered a couple of times and i have gone from being elated at winning or performing well to getting slightly embarressed now. An ex-captain suggested i approached the Handicap Secretary about a cut but i am just not sure if this would be the thing to do.
The upsurge in form has been down to new sticks and loads of practice to get used to them.
		
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I take over as handicap secretary this April and attended a seminar about the changes CONGU have made this year. There is one regarding "exceptional scores" which cuts players who score well (4 under handicap or better) if they do so within a certain number of rounds (think that's 6 from memory). The handicap software should flag up the first score and then recommend an extra cut when the 2nd one is entered.

Have your scores been better than 4 under? In which case I would speak to your secretary as the changes came in from the 1st Jan. The swindle wouldn't count as that would be, I think, considered social golf.

I'm still improving and have "headroom" in my handicap but never ever let calls of bandit do anything except make me smile inwardly as I know I want to be/could be/should be lower and it's just a matter of time.


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## Fore (Feb 6, 2012)

At my club there is no way you can get your name on the board if you are higher than 16. They always split competitions into divisions. Saying that there is maybe one or two comps that are for lowest gross but not many. I am off 24 at the moment. My target for this year was to get down to 18 or better by next xmas if not sooner.


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## Fore (Feb 6, 2012)

AmandaJR said:



			I take over as handicap secretary this April and attended a seminar about the changes CONGU have made this year. There is one regarding "exceptional scores" which cuts players who score well (4 under handicap or better) if they do so within a certain number of rounds (think that's 6 from memory). The handicap software should flag up the first score and then recommend an extra cut when the 2nd one is entered.

Have your scores been better than 4 under? In which case I would speak to your secretary as the changes came in from the 1st Jan. The swindle wouldn't count as that would be, I think, considered social golf.

I'm still improving and have "headroom" in my handicap but never ever let calls of bandit do anything except make me smile inwardly as I know I want to be/could be/should be lower and it's just a matter of time.
		
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Although my scores have been close to my handicap, the CSS has been  high (75 last week and 77 this week due to the weather) and the people i  have beaten in my division have not been anywhere near my scores. Last  week i won by 6 points and this week by 4 points over the next placed guy. Perhaps i should just let the HDID software do it's job.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 6, 2012)

Fore said:



			Although my scores have been close to my handicap, the CSS has been  high (75 last week and 77 this week due to the weather) and the people i  have beaten in my division have not been anywhere near my scores. Last  week i won by 6 points and this week by 4 points over the next placed guy. Perhaps i should just let the HDID software do it's job.
		
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It will all be based upon CSS so probably not considered exceptional and warrant an extra cut...


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## Monty_Brown (Feb 6, 2012)

I wouldn't worry too much. By your own estimate, your hcp is maybe a shot high - hardly bandit territory. The system will take care of that if your form continues.

The people implying you're a bandit should wind their necks in. These people who splutter with outrage have probably never been near a practice range in their lives. They turn up once a week with the same crap swing and can't understand why they never get better. 

Consequently they can't understand how anyone else can have a run of form aor show significant improvement.

You are a higher handicap golfer who is working hard to improve - a few low scores are both likely and richly deserved. :clap:


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## Fore (Feb 6, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			I wouldn't worry too much. By your own estimate, your hcp is maybe a shot high - hardly bandit territory. The system will take care of that if your form continues.

The people implying you're a bandit should wind their necks in. These people who splutter with outrage have probably never been near a practice range in their lives. They turn up once a week with the same crap swing and can't understand why they never get better. 

Consequently they can't understand how anyone else can have a run of form aor show significant improvement.

You are a higher handicap golfer who is working hard to improve - a few low scores are both likely and richly deserved. :clap:
		
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Thanks Monty_Brown. 
ps. nice shoes!


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## rosecott (Feb 9, 2012)

Fore said:



			the CSS has been  high (75 last week and 77 this week due to the weather)
		
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Where do you play?
I know CSS 77 is possible but there aren't many places where it happens.


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## Fore (Feb 9, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Where do you play?
I know CSS 77 is possible but there aren't many places where it happens.
		
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Kingswood.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 9, 2012)

Personaly i expect higher handicap players to score well in the winter when P&P is in place & i have no problem with it  , they can improve their lie for long irons or mayb woods , & you get to place within 6 inches , esp in the rough i fell this helps the higher handicap players .. 

If you are still doing it in qualifiers off the comp tees come march then some might wonder , but you will be or should be  geting cut for your rounds then ,, If you & your mates know your not a bandit sod the rest of them & enjoy playing well , as all golfers tell you it doesnt last for long ..


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			I wouldn't worry too much. By your own estimate, your hcp is maybe a shot high - hardly bandit territory. The system will take care of that if your form continues.

The people implying you're a bandit should wind their necks in. These people who splutter with outrage have probably never been near a practice range in their lives. They turn up once a week with the same crap swing and can't understand why they never get better. 

Consequently they can't understand how anyone else can have a run of form aor show significant improvement.

You are a higher handicap golfer who is working hard to improve - a few low scores are both likely and richly deserved. :clap:
		
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Agree 100%.

Reply to the 'Bandit' calls should be along the lines of 'Have you seen the practice area recently?'.

I've only ever queried a players exceptional score in a comp once, though I've laughed at several, as I'm a believer in letting the system do its job - Juniors excepted. The Congu system does have a bit of lag, slightly more than the 'Slope' system used pretty much everywhere else, but that can be an incentive too. As long as there are sufficient and frequent comps, then both will resolve improvement fairly well imo. It's the other direction that Congu 'fails' compared to slope imo. 

Keep working at it and keep seeming a bandit. As long as you are 'true to yourself' ignore the negative comments.


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## rosecott (Feb 9, 2012)

Fore said:



			Kingswood.
		
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Unless EGU have got your course details wrong, 76 is the maximum possible CSS.

There is no reason why you cannot ask your Handicap Committee to consider a reduction in your handicap. You would have to specify what you consider the justification for it - remember social golf scores are not considered relevant. Your committee will probably have carried out the Annual Review (has to be done by end of February) which looks at your performance over the previous year, including such things as matchplay performance. Good luck in your quest - always good to see players trying to get their handicaps down.

PS Kingswood looks like a fantastic place to play golf.


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## rosecott (Feb 9, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			, they can improve their lie for long irons or mayb woods , & you get to place within 6 inches , *esp in the rough *i feel this helps the higher handicap players ..
		
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What?


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## sydney greenstreet (Feb 9, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			Personaly i expect higher handicap players to score well in the winter when P&P is in place & i have no problem with it  , they can improve their lie for long irons or mayb woods , & you get to place within 6 inches , esp in the rough i fell this helps the higher handicap players .. 

If you are still doing it in qualifiers off the comp tees come march then some might wonder , but you will be or should be  geting cut for your rounds then ,, If you & your mates know your not a bandit sod the rest of them & enjoy playing well , as all golfers tell you it doesnt last for long ..
		
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I do not think you can get preferred lies in the rough ? only in the fairway or any other closely mown area.


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## rosecott (Feb 9, 2012)

sydney greenstreet said:



			I do not think you can get preferred lies in the rough ? only in the fairway or any other closely mown area.
		
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Just noticed - it's Ireland!


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## Pro Zach (Feb 10, 2012)

As I have probably said before, the only fair handicap allowance is none. But unfortunately a minority of people disagree with this. 


 I have also pointed out that the handicap is bad for most peoples enjoyment of the game. Your post is one example of why. You are now worried about whether your handicap is correct and say you are feeling slightly embarrassed. The whole handicap system, and peoples acceptance of it, is based on the myth that winning is important. Winning is not important for the enjoyment of competition for most people, but avoiding embarrassment is very important for most people. So regardless of how hard you think you are trying to win the next competition, the likelihood is you will actually be trying to avoid being embarrassed 


 You are embarrassed because you are unsure if you deserve the handicap you are taking,but you don't need the handicap committee to sort this out. It is not against the rules to put a lower handicap on your card. So just put down the number you think you deserve.


 If you are unsure how many shots you deserve, try doing this test. Imagine you are the only person in the competition who is allowed to take a handicap allowance, but you can take as many shots as you think fair. You will probably struggle to come up with any reason why you deserve to take any shots and have to write 0 on your card.


 If everyone did this you would have a fair competition where the position you finish would be exactly where you deserved to finish based on your performance on the day. You  would then get the satisfaction or disappointment you think your performance merits. But, win or lose, it would be down to you and not some unfair, inaccurate, meaningless, unnecessary, illogical handicap system. If you don't like losing, you could always write down a lower score than you actually took in the next competition. But I doubt you will want to do that.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 10, 2012)

rosecott said:



			What?
		
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Sorry should have said winter rules rather than P&P , our winter rules is placing everywhere .. except hazzards that is , if the weather is realy bad they take the bunkers out of play .. 

Rosecott Curious as to what you mean by this ??.......Just noticed - it's Ireland!


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## rosecott (Feb 10, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			As I have probably said before, the only fair handicap allowance is none. But unfortunately a minority of people disagree with this.
		
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You haven't talked all of us (or maybe any of us) round yet.


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## rosecott (Feb 10, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			Rosecott Curious as to what you mean by this ??.......Just noticed - it's Ireland!
		
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Tongue was firmly in cheek with suggestion that you have your own rules in Ireland.

The standard local rule allows pick and place only on close mown areas, not in the rough.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 10, 2012)

rosecott said:










You haven't talked all of us (or maybe any of us) round yet.
		
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 Rome wasn't built in a day.........................allegedly.


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## NWJocko (Feb 10, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			As I have probably said before, the only fair handicap allowance is none. But unfortunately a minority of people disagree with this. 


 I have also pointed out that the handicap is bad for most peoples enjoyment of the game. Your post is one example of why. You are now worried about whether your handicap is correct and say you are feeling slightly embarrassed. The whole handicap system, and peoples acceptance of it, is based on the myth that winning is important. Winning is not important for the enjoyment of competition for most people, but avoiding embarrassment is very important for most people. So regardless of how hard you think you are trying to win the next competition, the likelihood is you will actually be trying to avoid being embarrassed 


 You are embarrassed because you are unsure if you deserve the handicap you are taking,but you don't need the handicap committee to sort this out. It is not against the rules to put a lower handicap on your card. So just put down the number you think you deserve.


 If you are unsure how many shots you deserve, try doing this test. Imagine you are the only person in the competition who is allowed to take a handicap allowance, but you can take as many shots as you think fair. You will probably struggle to come up with any reason why you deserve to take any shots and have to write 0 on your card.


 If everyone did this you would have a fair competition where the position you finish would be exactly where you deserved to finish based on your performance on the day. You  would then get the satisfaction or disappointment you think your performance merits. But, win or lose, it would be down to you and not some unfair, inaccurate, meaningless, unnecessary, illogical handicap system. If you don't like losing, you could always write down a lower score than you actually took in the next competition. But I doubt you will want to do that.
		
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Interesting take ProZach.

You come across as someone who is very competitive at all sports from your attitude, which is not a bad thing at all.

Where, in my opinion, your argument about zero handicaps falls down is this.  What do you think people who aren't competitive, don't have the drive/determination/ambition in order to keep pushing their gross scores down would do?

Or are you happy for these guys to play off swindle/society handicaps and keep competition play limited to like minded people?


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## Steve King (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm with Pro Zach...I've never been a fan of handicaps.

I played a lot of footie when I was younger and when we played knockout cup football against teams from higher & lower divisions, (different playing abilities) I don't ever remember giving or receiving a couple of goals head start to level things out.

@ *Fore *- Players who practice and are determined to get better invariably do...

Your h/c will find it's level and when you get there it's not always that easy to play to it...so enjoy the ride and don't mind the calls of 'bandit'  as they'll be aimed at someone else the following week


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 11, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Tongue was firmly in cheek with suggestion that you have your own rules in Ireland.

The standard local rule allows pick and place only on close mown areas, not in the rough.








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Our course has preferred lies "through the green" it was decided by the committee and greenstaff that there was no clear definition between fairway and rough,because of this we can pick and place anywhere.


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## rosecott (Feb 11, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Our course has preferred lies "through the green" it was decided by the committee and greenstaff that there was no clear definition between fairway and rough,because of this we can pick and place anywhere.
		
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In which case, they cannot be qualifiers under CONGU rules.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 11, 2012)

rosecott said:



			In which case, they cannot be qualifiers under CONGU rules.
		
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maybe that why we do it so , ours are 13 hole comps so cant be qualifiers anyhow , (they cant , can they ?} i thought it was to save the course , wouldnt be too well up on it .. get handed the card get told placing everywhere bunkers in/out of play , temps/full greens etc


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## Pro Zach (Feb 15, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			Interesting take ProZach.

You come across as someone who is very competitive at all sports from your attitude, which is not a bad thing at all.

Where, in my opinion, your argument about zero handicaps falls down is this.  What do you think people who aren't competitive, don't have the drive/determination/ambition in order to keep pushing their gross scores down would do?

Or are you happy for these guys to play off swindle/society handicaps and keep competition play limited to like minded people?
		
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 The people who don't have the drive, determination or ambition to keep pushing their gross scores down would find a level they are personally satisfied with and compete at that level. This is what happens in non handicapped sports and games. Non handicapped sports do not exclude people who don't have a realistic chance of winning.  


 I personally don't have much drive, determination or ambition in golf. It is unlikely that I will ever win a non handicapped competition against a scratch golfer.So, should I take a 28 shot advantage because I lack ambition? 


 Do you not think that throughout history and across cultures, competitions have been run without a handicap system, because it actually encourages people to try harder? 

 People actually introduce their children to golf and tell them the handicap is fair. If you have drive determination and ambition, kids, you have absolutely no more chance of winning. This is because that would be unfair to people who don't have ambition. Lazy people should have the same chance of winning as hard working people? 


 Seems like a strange thing to teach children.


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## NWJocko (Feb 15, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			The people who don't have the drive, determination or ambition to keep pushing their gross scores down would find a level they are personally satisfied with and compete at that level. This is what happens in non handicapped sports and games. Non handicapped sports do not exclude people who don't have a realistic chance of winning.  


 I personally don't have much drive, determination or ambition in golf. It is unlikely that I will ever win a non handicapped competition against a scratch golfer.So, should I take a 28 shot advantage because I lack ambition? 


 Do you not think that throughout history and across cultures, competitions have been run without a handicap system, because it actually encourages people to try harder? 

 People actually introduce their children to golf and tell them the handicap is fair. If you have drive determination and ambition, kids, you have absolutely no more chance of winning. This is because that would be unfair to people who don't have ambition. Lazy people should have the same chance of winning as hard working people? 


 Seems like a strange thing to teach children.
		
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I think you're a bit OTT on the what you would teach children bit big man!!  Golf, and all sports that are played recreationally for that matter, are a very different thing than real life.  Ergo, the guidance you (and I do/will) give my children is, and will be, very different for life and something they are meant to be doing to enjoy.

I also think you would find very few golfers who think handicaps (and the way they're calculated) as "fair".  They create a level(ish) playing field (at least that is their aim) perhaps but is a long way from a perfect system and, depending on your viewpoint, is very unfair at times.

So are you proposing "divisions" much like there are now that people would compete in but taking gross scores only?

Do you refuse to take a handicap when you play out of interest?


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## rosecott (Feb 15, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			I also think you would find very few golfers who think handicaps (and the way they're calculated) as "fair". Do you refuse to take a handicap when you play out of interest?
		
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I have to disagree. In my experience (and I've had a lot) a highly significant majority of golfers have little or no issues with the handicapping system (particularly when they take an interest infinding out how it works). I am at a loss to imagine why the members of my club could possibly be at odds with the rest of golfers.

I too would be interested to know if Pro Zach has played in handicap events and entered his handicap as zero.


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## NWJocko (Feb 16, 2012)

rosecott said:



			I have to disagree. In my experience (and I've had a lot) a highly significant majority of golfers have little or no issues with the handicapping system (particularly when they take an interest infinding out how it works). I am at a loss to imagine why the members of my club could possibly be at odds with the rest of golfers.

I too would be interested to know if Pro Zach has played in handicap events and entered his handicap as zero.
		
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Perhaps "very few" was an overstatement I agree.

Personally I have no problem with the handicapping system, however there seem to be a lot of threads on here (and talk at clubs) around the "fairness" of CSS, Stableford favouring high handicaps etc etc.  

I also think that the "advantage" ofa handicap depends on your approach.  I don't think I could tell you with 100% certainty what holes on my course I receive shots on.  I aim to get the ball in the hole in as few shots as possible and take it from there.  

There are, however, golfers who like to use their shots which is a different approach.  Not wrong/worse or anything, just different.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 16, 2012)

NWJocko said:



			I think you're a bit OTT on the what you would teach children bit big man!!  Golf, and all sports that are played recreationally for that matter, are a very different thing than real life.  Ergo, the guidance you (and I do/will) give my children is, and will be, very different for life and something they are meant to be doing to enjoy.

I also think you would find very few golfers who think handicaps (and the way they're calculated) as "fair".  They create a level(ish) playing field (at least that is their aim) perhaps but is a long way from a perfect system and, depending on your viewpoint, is very unfair at times.

So are you proposing "divisions" much like there are now that people would compete in but taking gross scores only?

Do you refuse to take a handicap when you play out of interest?
		
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 I agree the bit about children is OTT in the sense that the message from golf will probably be irrelevant in comparison to all the other teachings in their life.Golfers seem unable to see that if one person is allowed to take 28 shots of his actual score and another person is not allowed to take any, it is unfair. Perhaps if I mention the emotive subject of children being taught unfairness than people might think about it more.


  Golfers do think the handicap system is fair and often say that it levels the playing field. I keep pointing out that it does not. 


 A level playing field demands that the conditions and rules are the same for everyone. No one is given an advantage or disadvantage.  


 A handicap system is the opposite of a level playing field. It deliberately advantages or disadvantages the players based on ability. It effectively unlevels the playing field making some people run uphill and some people run downhill. Or it could be described as levelling the players.


 Regardless of what we call them we clearly have two different systems. The first system is a perfect system. It is fair because it treats everyone equally and excludes no one. It works perfectly for humans because it is the instinctive natural fairness we are born with. It is basically the survival of the fittest. The strong win, the weak lose. The results are a hierarchy of abilities. People can put in as much or as little effort as they are personally happy with, and compete at that level.


 This system is so good I don't think I have ever met anyone who has not enjoyed playing a game or sport under these conditions. I am not eloquent enough to do justice to this system in writing. But I shouldn't have to. The evidence is all there that people of all abilities compete under this system and get enjoyment from it. 


 Why would you want to use any other system?


 To answer your questions:-


 I wasn't actually proposing divisions. I was proposing that people should stop taking an unfair advantage that they don't deserve. If divisions will help people to do this, I am all for them.


 I have always hated the handicap system. Because I loved the game I did join a club and use a handicap. I told myself it is only a game and if every one else is happy with it, why should I rock the boat. I played for about four years and luckily never won a competition. Then I did 'win' one, off 12 handicap. I had to smile and receive a prize. What I wanted to say is, â€œgive it to the lad over there who shot 10 less than I didâ€.But manners prevented me from doing this. I stopped entering competitions and played a few rounds on my own till the end of the year, then gave up playing.


 Last year I dug my clubs out and had a couple of games and realised I still love the game. I have looked at the local clubs and joined this forum. I asked on this forum if it was within the rules to write 0 on my card and if anyone would mind. I was going to join a club and not take a handicap allowance. But I probably won't. This is because it is going to be difficult to explain why I am putting 0 down. If I say it is because I like a harder competition I will have just introduced myself to many people as an idiot. If I say I think it is unfair, unhelpful to golfers, and the result is meaningless, many people will think I have just called them cheating idiots for believing in it. I don't think golfers are cheats or idiots, but I do think they are mistaken in their belief of the system.


 Perhaps I will just take up badminton again. I was actually quite good at that.


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## Philm (Feb 16, 2012)

i completely agree with Pro Zach.

and im completely against the handicap system. but i dont see it changing anytime soon.

i do however wish that club competition results were printed out in out of gross score to give you a really idea of how you were fairing.

i personally would love to see that i actually came 50th out of 150 or 100th out of 150 and could see the guys who shot roughly the same as me and then try and make my way up that leaderboard 

then we could scrap the enterance fee for comps  and play it as a really sport! would be dreamy!

also point of note, the 2s comp is the only fair thing that still exist in club golf, were a good player wins more than a hacker like me lol

Phil


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2012)

the really good players, ie. the low single handicap players who usually shoot the lowest gross scores would usually pick up a two during their round meaning they effectively play the competitions for free. i got Â£8.50 for a 2 last year. that would pay 2 competitons for them. us hackers dont always collect on the twos. in fact i might make a note of how many i pick up in relation to how many times i enter them.


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## NWJocko (Feb 17, 2012)

Pro Zach, I get the feeling you think I am disagreeing with you but I'm not.

Theoretically, I agree 100% with you.  I played football to a professional level when I was younger, then semi pro after injuries.  I had to work bleedin hard to get to where I was allied to the ability I had.

I think the problem that point of view faces is how ingrained the handicap system is.  Using an example, members on here often talk about "using their shots" to make a bogey, net par.  If I got to that point it would no longer be fun for me.  I get course management and if that means the best shot is laying up on a par 4 then so be it.  

The problem is that these golfers (or at least a proportion of them the size of which is another debate I suppose), who contribute to the running costs of the course etc, will disappear I think.

It annoys me that so much golf is stableford.  Every week in the clubhouse all you hear about are "points".  

All I care about is gross score, every week, regardless of type of comp I'm playing in and it frustrates me that people win stableford comps and don't know what they went round in.

It is each to their own and I appreciate other points of view but, in it's purest form, I agree with your argument.


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## MadAdey (Feb 17, 2012)

ProZach...may I ask you a question here please. Why do you bother with the game if you hate it so much? The handicap system although maybe not the greatest invention actually allows people of all standards to play against each other, it is the only sport that does from my memory.

Ok so we scrap the handicap system altogether then. What do we do for competitions at our club? Anyone who knocks it round in the mid 80's is never going to enter a competition so you will end up with 10 people entering the monthly medal......

Comparing it to football is wrong. I stopped playing a few years ago due to screwing my knee up. But if I wanted to play football I could go and play at a level that matched my ability. Sunday pub league, district league, county league, midlands league, etc etc all the way up to Premiership. How do you propose to get golfers into some kind of competition that will match them against people of a similar ability?

Remember with golf some people play it for the recreational aspect be it through choice or just not having the time to dedicate yourself to it. Others do have the time to get in 2/3 rounds a week and 5+ hours on the practice ground so can commit more to becoming an accomplished golfer. Simple if you do not like the handicap system then enter competitions that do not have a handicap allowance.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 17, 2012)

MadAdey said:



			ProZach...may I ask you a question here please. Why do you bother with the game if you hate it so much? The handicap system although maybe not the greatest invention actually allows people of all standards to play against each other, it is the only sport that does from my memory.

Ok so we scrap the handicap system altogether then. What do we do for competitions at our club? Anyone who knocks it round in the mid 80's is never going to enter a competition so you will end up with 10 people entering the monthly medal......

Comparing it to football is wrong. I stopped playing a few years ago due to screwing my knee up. But if I wanted to play football I could go and play at a level that matched my ability. Sunday pub league, district league, county league, midlands league, etc etc all the way up to Premiership. How do you propose to get golfers into some kind of competition that will match them against people of a similar ability?

Remember with golf some people play it for the recreational aspect be it through choice or just not having the time to dedicate yourself to it. Others do have the time to get in 2/3 rounds a week and 5+ hours on the practice ground so can commit more to becoming an accomplished golfer. Simple if you do not like the handicap system then enter competitions that do not have a handicap allowance.
		
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 I will answer your question with quotes from my previous post: 'Because I loved the game I did join a club', and, 'I still love the game.'


 If you are not willing to read, or try to understand, anything I write, it seems a bit pointless to comment on what you have written. However I'm doing nothing else, so what the hell.


 You don't need a handicap to allow people of all standards to play against each other.If Luke Donald turns up here tomorrow and offers me a game of golf I will go and play him. I do not need a handicap to do that.


 Your second question is difficult to be sure of. Because of peoples strongly held beliefs in the system, it is fair to say if you scrapped the handicap tomorrow it would be somewhat chaotic. I think there would be teddies thrown everywhere, dummies spat, pet lips out. People would be shouting how ridiculous it was, refusing to ever play again and storming off home.Perhaps to eat some cheese and squeak a bit. Hopefully cheese will encourage their balls to drop and they will stop stamping their feet and saying, â€œit's so unfair. I'm not playing if  I can't winâ€


 Most would go back to the club to play socially but not in competitions. The committee will have foreseen this and scrapped the entrance fee. Then people will grumble how crap it is but they might as well enter anyway. Then some of these will realise that they actually enjoy playing in a fair competition. They will remember what they probably learned when they first caught their dad letting them win. It's better to lose than win with an advantage. Some people will never admit they where wrong, and stop playing. Some will  continue to play and grumble about how the game  has been ruined, for the rest of their life. New comers to the game will start at the bottom and enjoy competing up the ladder of success to where ever they feel happiest. Just like humans have done since they evolved. They will possibly have to listen to a strange old bloke telling them how much better it used to be, when rubbish players where allowed to cheat good players out of the prizes.


 I doubt it would be quite how  I suggest and I suspect it is all meaningless drivel to you. 


 People who can't win,won't enter competitions, was described in a different thread by someone who liked the handicap, as silly. All the evidence from non handicapped competitions shows this. 


 Others have already described how you could run divisions in golf. The suggestion that you couldn't is also silly.


 People enter competitions in many sports for the recreational aspect. To suggest golf is different is silly.


 Do you realise you started with the idea that the handicap system allows any golfer to play with any other. Then you finished with the idea that it doesn't include me. Do you have any idea how many other people it excludes?


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2012)

You're blurring the edges.
If Luke Donald showed up one day - Yes you could play a round of Golf with him.
And that's the issue.
You could play WITH him. You couldn't compete against him because you would not be able to win..
For there to be competition between rivals, both must have a chance of winning, otherwise the word "Competition" is being used incorrectly.
There is a huge difference between playing with someone and playing against someone.

Without a handicapping system I would get bored.
As I've posted in a previous "handicap-bashing" thread, I play most of my Golf with Fragger. I'm off 5, he's off 22.
Without a handicap system I would win. Every week. Even if I had a bad day. I'd still beat him Gross.
How long would that keep either of our interest going?
Fragger is improving, but, just say he's reached his best, he's not going to improve......
Why would he bother coming out to get beaten every week. Why would I turn up knowing that I don't even have to play my best - or even well if he has a bad day too - to win?

You can play WITH someone any time.
You can only COMPETE against someone with a similar ability.
If those abilities are different, in Golf, we have a way of closing the gap.

Good Luck on you Crusade to rid us of the evil that is handicapping. 
You have a long, long road to walk......


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## bobmac (Feb 18, 2012)

I could write books about this subject............
When I was a junior, we had club comps.
All prizes were given to the best gross but a brand new shiney Dunlop 65 in it's wrapper for the lowest net score....just to encourage those just starting out.
Nowadays, in the VAST majority of club comps, it's come full circle and now all prizes go to the best nett scores and if you're lucky, there might be a best gross prize. But even then, you often have to pay extra to enter the best gross comp. And that's extra, not instead of, the nett comp.

When I grew up, I was a member of W-S-M  GC.
I played in the monthly medal and scored 16 pars and 2 birdies off 3.
150 entrants and I beat them all, the nearest gross being 1 over
I was chuffed to bits.
I went to the shop to collect my prize *to be told there was no gross prize and I came nowhere nett.*
I never played another comp at WSM GC

So, I would like to see the main prizes go to the best gross scores ie the best players, but have some smaller prizes for the best nett to encourage the others coming through.

Where I think the h/cap system DOES work is in the little "in-games" you have with you mates/social golf / bounce games etc. That is where I believe the h/cap system was designed to help friends have a game and to make it competitive.

I know people will say "but they have divisions in comps" which is fine but apart from the club champs the overall winner will 99 out of 100 times be the best nett score.

So when people ask me "why make it best gross" My answer is always "why shouldn't the best golfer win the major prize"?

Fortunately, now when I play in a tournament, there's never cries of "bandit" at the prize giving.


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## rosecott (Feb 18, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I could write books about this subject............
		
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All you need to do is add your post to all of the posts from Pro Zach, do a bit of editing for repetition, and bingo, you've got enough material for a substantial tome.


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## bobmac (Feb 18, 2012)

rosecott said:



			All you need to do is add your post to all of the posts from Pro Zach, do a bit of editing for repetition, and bingo, you've got enough material for a substantial tome.
		
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Dont bite
Dont bite


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## birdieman (Feb 18, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I could write books about this subject............
When I was a junior, we had club comps.
All prizes were given to the best gross but a brand new shiney Dunlop 65 in it's wrapper for the lowest net score....just to encourage those just starting out.
Nowadays, in the VAST majority of club comps, it's come full circle and now all prizes go to the best nett scores and if you're lucky, there might be a best gross prize. But even then, you often have to pay extra to enter the best gross comp. And that's extra, not instead of, the nett comp.

When I grew up, I was a member of W-S-M GC.
I played in the monthly medal and scored 16 pars and 2 birdies off 3.
150 entrants and I beat them all, the nearest gross being 1 over
I was chuffed to bits.
I went to the shop to collect my prize *to be told there was no gross prize and I came nowhere nett.*
I never played another comp at WSM GC

So, I would like to see the main prizes go to the best gross scores ie the best players, but have some smaller prizes for the best nett to encourage the others coming through.

Where I think the h/cap system DOES work is in the little "in-games" you have with you mates/social golf / bounce games etc. That is where I believe the h/cap system was designed to help friends have a game and to make it competitive.

I know people will say "but they have divisions in comps" which is fine but apart from the club champs the overall winner will 99 out of 100 times be the best nett score.

So when people ask me "why make it best gross" My answer is always "why shouldn't the best golfer win the major prize"?

Fortunately, now when I play in a tournament, there's never cries of "bandit" at the prize giving. 

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Well said Bob, a fairer spread of prizes would be better to include more scratch prizes. My main concern with the handicap system is that many(not all) 18+ handicap players never practice, they just roll up on a weekend and are just as likely to win as the 2 handicapper who has spend 4 hours that week practicing hard to be as good as he is. I know this scenario can be reversed but imo it is nearly always the former.
Handicaps do reflect scoring ability but don't reflect levels of practice and time put into getting better which makes them unfair, prizes should be weighted more to lower categories to encourage players of all levels to get better.
The 36 hole order of merit Open events are the way for good players to pick up a lot of prize vouichers as they are weighted to scratch scoring but within their own club events (cups and medals) low handicap players are not treated fairly imo.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 18, 2012)

I think our club has the balance right. We have 1st, 2nd, B/G, 3rd and 4th in all our comps. The major comps are 36 holes on the day which heavily favours the lower handicappers and we have a handicap limit of 20 in all finals to ensure players get to a reasonable standard before winning board comps etc. Club Championship is obviously gross.

The scenario Bob describes above (2 under gross winning now't) is appalling and I'm not surprised he fell out with the place (I would too). However I don't agree that making the main prize gross is the way forward. Yes, the best golfer wins but handicaps are supposed to be fair giving everyone a chance to win. Our "majors" last year were won (nett) by players off 4, 4, 3, 5, 3, 11, 3, 15 and our best gross prize has often gone to the 2nd best gross as the best gross picks up 1st or 2nd nett.

OK last year was maybe a fluke but overall we get a *fair* amount of low handicappers winning every year. If our comps were gross comps we would have every prize collected less than a dozen players who could compete at that level every year. It would encourage players to practice and get lower etc but it would also encourage most players to give up competitions altogether so the prizes wouldn't be worth winning anyway! As we play golf primarily for fun, not profit I think it's better to be inclusive in the way competition play is organised.


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## chrisd (Feb 18, 2012)

I do tend to agree with Fyldewhite.

Our comps are rarely split by category but it's quite noticeable that when the course plays easy, the higher handicappers come in and when it's longer and tougher, the lower handicappers win. There has to be room for the improving player to stand a chance of doing something in a comp and my handicap (11) can be tough to win from, as I am neither going to win a scratch, nor beat an on form high handicapper. We do have a maximum playing handicap for the "honours board" comps of 18 which I think is just about right.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 18, 2012)

Imurg said:



			You're blurring the edges.
If Luke Donald showed up one day - Yes you could play a round of Golf with him.
And that's the issue.
You could play WITH him. You couldn't compete against him because you would not be able to win..
For there to be competition between rivals, both must have a chance of winning, otherwise the word "Competition" is being used incorrectly.
There is a huge difference between playing with someone and playing against someone.

Without a handicapping system I would get bored.
As I've posted in a previous "handicap-bashing" thread, I play most of my Golf with Fragger. I'm off 5, he's off 22.
Without a handicap system I would win. Every week. Even if I had a bad day. I'd still beat him Gross.
How long would that keep either of our interest going?
Fragger is improving, but, just say he's reached his best, he's not going to improve......
Why would he bother coming out to get beaten every week. Why would I turn up knowing that I don't even have to play my best - or even well if he has a bad day too - to win?

You can play WITH someone any time.
You can only COMPETE against someone with a similar ability.
If those abilities are different, in Golf, we have a way of closing the gap.

Good Luck on you Crusade to rid us of the evil that is handicapping. 
You have a long, long road to walk......
		
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 If you want to stand on the first tee with Luke Donald, believe you can't compete, are unable to win and throw the towel in, it is up to you. I have no problem with that.


 However, I don't think you have a right to throw the towel in for me. I think it is somewhat arrogant to assume I should, or do, have the same mindset as you. Regardless of what you think, I can compete against Luke Donald. Using your definition of a competition, 'both must have a chance of winning'. I can compete, because I do have a chance of winning. I might have very little chance of winning and the odds are very much against me. But I have not lost before the first ball has been hit. So if it's all the same to you I will try to win right up to the point where the result proves who actually did win.


  If I lose you can then try to gloat and say I told you so. You can then carry on in a smug mistaken belief that probabilities predict the future or are facts.


 If you have more ability at golf than your brother, it is a fact. This will remain a fact until you get worse or he gets better. If you want to play a childish fantasy and pretend it is not true then it is up to you. 


  You say, â€œYou can only COMPETE against someone with a similar abilityâ€.  If this is true for you then you can't compete against your brother. You do not have similar ability. 


  Golf has not found a way of closing that gap. Regardless of how many shots you give him your ability gap remains the same. That is the facts and the handicap does not change them.


 Reality, the facts of life, can often seem harsh or unfair. But if you want to get maximum enjoyment and satisfaction, you have to change it by becoming better,or learn to live with it. Pretending you are the best is a poor substitute for actual achievement. Someone who has never broken a 100 would get more enjoyment from the  mind-blowing achievement of not coming last in a fair competition than he will ever get from pretending he won. He will not be disappointed that he didn't win because winning would be an unrealistic goal.


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## chris661 (Feb 18, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			If you want to stand on the first tee with Luke Donald, believe you can't compete, are unable to win and throw the towel in, it is up to you. I have no problem with that.


 However, I don't think you have a right to throw the towel in for me. I think it is somewhat arrogant to assume I should, or do, have the same mindset as you. Regardless of what you think, I can compete against Luke Donald. Using your definition of a competition, 'both must have a chance of winning'. I can compete, because I do have a chance of winning. I might have very little chance of winning and the odds are very much against me. But I have not lost before the first ball has been hit. So if it's all the same to you I will try to win right up to the point where the result proves who actually did win.


  If I lose you can then try to gloat and say I told you so. You can then carry on in a smug mistaken belief that probabilities predict the future or are facts.


 If you have more ability at golf than your brother, it is a fact. This will remain a fact until you get worse or he gets better. If you want to play a childish fantasy and pretend it is not true then it is up to you. 


 You say, â€œYou can only COMPETE against someone with a similar abilityâ€.  If this is true for you then you can't compete against your brother. You do not have similar ability. 


 Golf has not found away of closing that gap. Regardless of how many shots you give him your ability gap remains the same. That is the facts and the handicap does not change them.


 Reality, the facts of life, can often seem harsh or unfair. But if you want to get maximum enjoyment and satisfaction, you have to change it by becoming better,or learn to live with it. Pretending you are the best is a poor substitute for actual achievement. Someone who has never broken a 100 would get more enjoyment from the  mind-blowing achievement of not coming last in a fair competition than he will ever get from pretending he won. He will not be disappointed that he didn't win because winning would be an unrealistic goal.
		
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Eh? What a load of cobblers.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 18, 2012)

chris661 said:



			Eh? What a load of cobblers.
		
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 Well this reasoned argument has certainly convinced me. I better have a rethink.:mmm:


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## MadAdey (Feb 18, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			Well this reasoned argument has certainly convinced me. I better have a rethink.:mmm:
		
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I do think that Chris has summed up that load of old dribble perfectly. SO you think you could compete with Luke Donald then? What handicap do you play off? Unless you are a scratch golfer I would be suprised if you managed to get past the 12th. 

Let us be realistic here Luke Donald a player who can go around tour standard courses in 64 would certainly not have many problems shooting 2 - 4 shots under if not more every time down at your course. So if you think you could still be competitive with him then you must either be a top amateur player or live in a fantasy land.

You argument is all around making everyone play on a level playing field, but I have still not seen how you are going to achieve this. Most other sports are played in leagues, golf is not. You will join a football club that is in line with your current ability. In golf a club is full of people of all abilities.


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## chris661 (Feb 18, 2012)

MadAdey said:



			I do think that Chris has summed up that load of old dribble perfectly. SO you think you could compete with Luke Donald then? What handicap do you play off? Unless you are a scratch golfer I would be suprised if you managed to get past the 12th.
		
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There is a huge HUGE difference between someone who plays off scratch and a top touring pro. There is even a huge difference  between someone who plays off +4 and a top touring pro. It is utterly rediculous to suggest it should be a level playing field for everyone.


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## MadAdey (Feb 18, 2012)

chris661 said:



			There is a huge HUGE difference between someone who plays off scratch and a top touring pro. There is even a huge difference  between someone who plays off +4 and a top touring pro. It is utterly rediculous to suggest it should be a level playing field for everyone.
		
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My point exactly chris. We have a county golfer at my place who plays of a plus handicap, I am very competitive but lets be realistic, I could not give him a competitive game. I could maybe push him most of the way round but that is it.

Golf is a game that is played by people of all abilities and thanks to the handicapping system it enables us all to play against each other. If we had a vote on here I think that 99.9% of people would not scrap the handicapping system, so why should things be changed for a very small minority.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			If you want to stand on the first tee with Luke Donald, believe you can't compete, are unable to win and throw the towel in, it is up to you. I have no problem with that.


 However, I don't think you have a right to throw the towel in for me. I think it is somewhat arrogant to assume I should, or do, have the same mindset as you. Regardless of what you think, I can compete against Luke Donald. Using your definition of a competition, 'both must have a chance of winning'. I can compete, because I do have a chance of winning. I might have very little chance of winning and the odds are very much against me. But I have not lost before the first ball has been hit. So if it's all the same to you I will try to win right up to the point where the result proves who actually did win.


  If I lose you can then try to gloat and say I told you so. You can then carry on in a smug mistaken belief that probabilities predict the future or are facts.


 If you have more ability at golf than your brother, it is a fact. This will remain a fact until you get worse or he gets better. If you want to play a childish fantasy and pretend it is not true then it is up to you. 


  You say, â€œYou can only COMPETE against someone with a similar abilityâ€.  If this is true for you then you can't compete against your brother. You do not have similar ability. 


  Golf has not found a way of closing that gap. Regardless of how many shots you give him your ability gap remains the same. That is the facts and the handicap does not change them.


 Reality, the facts of life, can often seem harsh or unfair. But if you want to get maximum enjoyment and satisfaction, you have to change it by becoming better,or learn to live with it. Pretending you are the best is a poor substitute for actual achievement. Someone who has never broken a 100 would get more enjoyment from the  mind-blowing achievement of not coming last in a fair competition than he will ever get from pretending he won. He will not be disappointed that he didn't win because winning would be an unrealistic goal.
		
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chris661 said:



			Eh? What a load of cobblers.
		
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Glad you said that Chris - saved me having to.....


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## TheJezster (Feb 18, 2012)

I think what prozach says is nonsense, but let's face it, he is perfectly entitled to his view.  Noone is going to change his mind, it's what he believes.

Yes, he may be in a minority of less than 0.1% of the golfing population, but he still has the view.

I dont agree with any of it, it's not accurate, but I'm not going to try to change his opinion.  Noone else will and thankfully the powers that be wouldnt dream of going down that route either as it would ruin golf as a social game.

Fair play to him for standing up for his beliefs though, I'll happily let him play off scratch if I ever play him ;-)


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## rosecott (Feb 18, 2012)

TheJezster said:



			Yes, he may be in a minority of less than 0.1% of the golfing population, but he still has the view.
		
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Yes - but can he not say it a bit more succinctly.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 19, 2012)

MadAdey said:



			I do think that Chris has summed up that load of old dribble perfectly. SO you think you could compete with Luke Donald then? What handicap do you play off? Unless you are a scratch golfer I would be suprised if you managed to get past the 12th. 

Let us be realistic here Luke Donald a player who can go around tour standard courses in 64 would certainly not have many problems shooting 2 - 4 shots under if not more every time down at your course. So if you think you could still be competitive with him then you must either be a top amateur player or live in a fantasy land.

You argument is all around making everyone play on a level playing field, but I have still not seen how you are going to achieve this. Most other sports are played in leagues, golf is not. You will join a football club that is in line with your current ability. In golf a club is full of people of all abilities.
		
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 We seem to have a different definition of  'compete'. In the Oxford dictionary it is described as: strive for superiority or supremacy: take part in a contest etc. and in the Cambridge dictionary: to try to be more successful than someone or something else: to take part in a race or competition.


 Competing has nothing whatsoever to do with the chances of winning.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 19, 2012)

rosecott said:



			Yes - but can he not say it a bit more succinctly.
		
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No.


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## MadAdey (Feb 19, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that is why this is a forum site. I would still love to hear some answers to the questions that I have put to Zach already.


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## wolfie677 (Feb 19, 2012)

There are two players at our club who always find themselves in the first three each week and the club members are not too pleased their money goes to the usual suspects.  However, one of these players is me.  I have been playing for almost two years now and find myself in a position that I improve quicker than my handicap can get cut.  Only yesterday I played -5 my handicap on the back 9 of our course in very windy conditions and driving it 284yds on at least three occasions.  Whilst it makes me feel brilliant how good I am getting others find it very frustrating that someone with my handicap can play like this.  Golf should be played in a spirit it has done for so many years.  I try to continue this spirit and have submitted cards this year, being cut 1.1 already.  The Â£20 I won in the club school this year I gave to the club treasurer to plough back into the club funds.  I didnt do this for accepatance by other members or for myself to feel better, as i did it in private and have not told anyone, but to play golf in a manner that conforms to the etiquette I believe in.  The point of this post is to answer the opening statement to this thread - submit a card, or two.  Its not to appease everyone else but to officailly show yourself that all the slices, hooks and wrong club selections you make, you are still getting better with all your hard work - and the golfing world can see this.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 19, 2012)

My lack of succinctness is partly due to not exactly being off scratch when it comes to written English. ( I imagine everyone can see that) But as TheJezster says I have a different belief to most other golfers. The only two things I know are, I think I'm right and I could be wrong. Comments such as 'Eh? What a load of cobblers' are at best pointless. He could be correct, but to simply state someone is wrong, without explanation, is in my view arrogant and offensive. 


 So if someone says,â€œonly people who had a reasonable chance of winning would enter golf competitions without the handicap systemâ€. I can't reply â€“that is cobblers. I have to point out that the evidence from non handicapped sports shows it to be incorrect.  


 But often people refuse to see the evidence because they refuse to accept that their belief could be wrong. Which is why, when I point out I can compete against Luke Donald, some people will still believe this is cobblers. But this it is not my opinion. It is a fact by definition.


MadAdey,


 I can't see any questions you have asked that I haven't tried to address.


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## Imurg (Feb 19, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			But often people refuse to see the evidence because they refuse to accept that their belief could be wrong. Which is why, when I point out I can compete against Luke Donald, some people will still believe this is cobblers. But this it is not my opinion. It is a fact by definition.
		
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So you honestly think that if you played Luke Donald - scratch - you would have even the minutest of chances of winning.........?

At best you are delusional, at worst you're in orbit in a completely different Galaxy to anyone else..

This isn't like a Non-League team taking on the Premier League leaders in the FA Cup and springing a surprise defeat on them in the last minute of extra time - this is akin to St Mary's School Under 12's playing Real Madrid.
If you've played off 12, at a rough guestimate, Luke would be in the region of 20 shots better than you, maybe more. The Gulf between 12 and Scratch isn't just 12 shots, the gulf between Scratch and Luke is wider than the gap between you and scratch.


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## Region3 (Feb 19, 2012)

This has been very interesting reading.

I'm for the handicapping system, but its' only my opinion and I'm not going to try to put an argument forward for it.

I'd just like to say that it's been refreshing to have someone putting their strong and slightly controversial opinion forward and reason the counter arguments without resorting to insults, which more threads nowadays seem to do.

Trying to think about other sports that are handicapped, horse racing springs to mind. I know it's the horses not the people that are handicapped but the idea is to allow different standards of horse to compete together.
Even some of the prestige non-handicap races have a form of handicapping in the form of weight for age penalties, or different weights for different sexes.

Also, wasn't one of the cars in the touring car championship handicapped by putting extra weight in a few years ago because it was that much better than the rest? Either a BMW or a Merc?


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## MadAdey (Feb 19, 2012)

[h=2]comÂ·pete[/h]â€‚ â€‚[k_uh_m-peet]  Show IPA
*verb (used without object), **-petÂ·ed, **-petÂ·ing.*to strive to outdo another for acknowledgment, a prize,supremacy, profit, etc.; engage in a contest; vie: _to compete in a_race[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_; _[/FONT]_to_[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]_compete_[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]_in_[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_business._[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_So yes that is what to compete means._[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_But let us be realistic here you would not put up much competition, would you?_[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_You have mentioned about someone giving the answer of cobblers. Well I have asked you the question about what else can we do instead of the handicapping system and I am still awaiting your answer. I do enjoy seeing a different point of view on here as too often you just get people jumping on a band wagon to gain popularity, when all they are doing is copying the point of view of someone else, as they are __frightened__ to rock the boat. 

So please back your opinion up with another idea to replace it with. As you can't just have every club competition being played off scratch as you would have nobody entering it._[/FONT]
​


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## Philm (Feb 19, 2012)

Imurg said:



			So you honestly think that if you played Luke Donald - scratch - you would have even the minutest of chances of winning.........?

At best you are delusional, at worst you're in orbit in a completely different Galaxy to anyone else..
		
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but the facts say that he does have the minutest chance of winning. a chance so small its nigh impossible to define. but a genuine chance none the less.

same chance as the fact that he could do something ridiculous like a hole a par3 or chip in a par 4. a small but very real chance.

its nice to see ProZach argue his point articulately and without lowering his tones against the naysayers.

i would certainly agree with the fact that the removal of the handicap system would change the club scene completely.

Phil


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## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2012)

@Prozach. Or should the 'ch' be a 'k'?! 

I think a huge proportion of what you are saying is complete twaddle - but I will defend your right to have an opinion.

I do believe that there are not enough Gross competitions in club golf. A previous club ran Medals in which the Nett and Gross (and 2s) were optional. 

If you want Gross comps, enter any of the many Open Competitions that exist.

There has been a documented handicap system for Golf Matches for at least 250 years - and very probably a couple of hundred more - and it's purpose has been to provide an environment where players of differing abilities can compete in a match/competition and have equal chance to win. That match/competition does not, however, measure who is the best golfer(s) - simply who plays best against their perceived ability on the day. The measure for 'best golfer' (on the day) is still the one with the best Gross score (on the day). Both measures have value.


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 19, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			So if someone says,â€œonly people who had a reasonable chance of winning would enter golf competitions without the handicap systemâ€. I can't reply â€“that is cobblers. I have to point out that the evidence from non handicapped sports shows it to be incorrect.
		
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For me this is where your argument falls before it even starts. 

I do not know to which sports you refer but the latest Sport England survey would not appear to support your case.  This shows that more people (670,608) regularly take part in golf at competition level than any other sport. Football (647,802) closely follows and then athletics (558, 756).  The next best (angling) has less than a quarter of the numbers of golfers. 

Footballers only regularly compete with players of equal ability (leagues) and a large number of disciplines (e.g jogging, cross country track and field etc)  are included in the figures for Athletics.   So clearly other sports exist without handicaps,  but that is all they are doing.  Golf on the other hand continues, in comparison, to thrive.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 19, 2012)

Thanks Philm,


 I must admit I was struggling to respond to Imurg's post without lowering the tone. The good news is my head's fine but the wall is a bit bruised.


 I think if we removed the handicap tomorrow, what ensues might be much more entertaining than golf. But that's just my wicked side talking.


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## Pro Zach (Feb 19, 2012)

MadAdey,

 I very much doubt I would have Luke Donald quaking in his boots. Although I do have Mizuno woods. And he knows how good they are!


 I haven't given much thought to divisions in non handicapped golf. I seem to be 50 years or so from convincing anyone to even consider a level playing field. If anyone did say, â€œOK in principle I might agree but we would need divisionsâ€ I would have to ask them what divisions. Personally I would be happy with one. I would still enter a competition regardless of  not having a realistic chance of winning anything. I am not trying to cop out of the question but I think you would be better placed to answer it. What gap between abilities would you suggest if a level playing field was ever voted through. 


 I would find it quite interesting to see what people would accept if they had too. (I'm odd like that) Would they only want to compete against people with the same handicap? 1, 2, 3, 4, higher? But don't ask me. I'm so stupid I would try to beat Luke Donald. 


 Also don't forget that all of this would only work for stroke play competitions and not solve the problem people have in bounce games or match play. But it wouldn't prevent any one playing with anyone else. You wouldn't have to be paired with people in the same division.


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 19, 2012)

Pro Zach said:



			MadAdey,

 I very much doubt I would have Luke Donald quaking in his boots. Although I do have Mizuno woods. And he knows how good they are!


 I haven't given much thought to divisions in non handicapped golf. I seem to be 50 years or so from convincing anyone to even consider a level playing field. If anyone did say, â€œOK in principle I might agree but we would need divisionsâ€ I would have to ask them what divisions. Personally I would be happy with one. I would still enter a competition regardless of  not having a realistic chance of winning anything. I am not trying to cop out of the question but I think you would be better placed to answer it. What gap between abilities would you suggest if a level playing field was ever voted through. 


 I would find it quite interesting to see what people would accept if they had too. (I'm odd like that) Would they only want to compete against people with the same handicap? 1, 2, 3, 4, higher? But don't ask me. I'm so stupid I would try to beat Luke Donald. 


 Also don't forget that all of this would only work for stroke play competitions and not solve the problem people have in bounce games or match play. But it wouldn't prevent any one playing with anyone else. You wouldn't have to be paired with people in the same division.
		
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I don't understand this talk about divisions.  Surely if you want everyone to play to the same rules on an equal footing then we all just play in one division.  Anything else would just be replacing one form of handicapping for another.


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## rosecott (Feb 19, 2012)

doublebogey7 said:



			I don't understand this talk about divisions.  Surely if you want everyone to play to the same rules on an equal footing then we all just play in one division.  Anything else would just be replacing one form of handicapping for another.
		
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We're talking prize money here. It's a given that the lower your handicap is, the smaller the variation there will be around your handicap. Conversely, at the higher end of the handicap ranges, there will be a much greater variance. Playing in divisions gets round, to some extent, the problem of the higher handicap player who perhaps scores 40+ points when he plays a blinder making it very difficult for the single figure guy to match it. So, in each division, it introduces another layer of making competition fairer.

Over to Pro Zach.


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## garyinderry (Feb 20, 2012)

these are club competitions. we all know who the best golfers at the club are. they are the ones with the lowest handicap. its written on the board for all to see. we are not playing this game for a living. its at professional level where its a completly level field. at club level, the handicap system spreads the prizes around as everyone can win a prize of some description as they improve and start to chip away at the handicap. if this wasnt the case then we would all be paying 3quid a go just to buy the top 5 golfers at the club new ping jackets,tv's,crystal,vouchers every week.

bobmac- you didnt get a prize for that great round and thats unfortunate. how many prizes have you collected in your time while getting your handicap to 3 at the time. granted there should always be a small prize for gross in all fairness. there is at my club.

oh a pro zach, you sound like a 5 year old saying "so your saying i cant compete with luke donald?" your using the literial sense of the word. if you could "compete" with luke donald you would be on my TV every sunday on sky sports 3 coming down the stretch. you see, theres really no boundries in golf. if you are good enough then you can rise to the top. otherwise us amatures can just enjoy the game and dream that we could compete with mr donald and company.


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