# New Rules - what are you for and against?



## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2018)

We had a wee discussion about this today while walking around the links.

It's only days away until some fairly "interesting" changes come into play.

I'm liking the fact that I will be able to tap down and fix spike marks, scrapes and imperfections on the putting surface, I think this rule has been a long time in coming and is a good positive move.

I can live with putting out with the flag stick still in and we did this a few times today and we agreed that it actually probably is quicker doing this. No farting about with tending the flag, "I want it left in" - "I want it tended" - "Can you stand the other side please" it actually works well.

I'm pretty sure the "drop" instead of going back to the tee will be fairly widely abused. Not convinced it's a good rule. Then again if it is designed to speed up play I guess it ultimately will do that.

Only 3 minutes to look for a ball. We have all heard the argument that if the ball isn't found in that timescale then it's unlikely you are going to find it etc etc. I think the biggest problem is ettiquette in this rule, I've played numerous times when you or a member of the group sprays one offline and one of the playing partners always says "I didn't see it". I don't get this. 

This 3 minute rule will still be abused as much as the current 5 minutes is at present.

My biggest question and criticism is the double hit. For me that is still a penalty. You have struck your ball twice, it's two shots. We've all done it and hopefully all called it on ourselves. Can't work out why that is not still a penalty.

What "new" rules are you happy with or not so happy with?


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## Slab (Dec 14, 2018)

Happy with almost everything
Except congu messing with the OOB/lost ball local rule for qualifiers


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			This 3 minute rule will still be abused as much as the current 5 minutes is at present.

My biggest question and criticism is the double hit. For me that is still a penalty. You have struck your ball twice, it's two shots.
		
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Good points.... I would say that

...with the first, at least it'll be abused more quickly!

..with the second, the second contact rare goes where you want!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2018)

Generally all for them. Having seen the 'drop' clarified in the rules section I suspect it will be largely ignored by clubs as if it is not allowed for Q comps why run 2 sets of rules in one club. It can only lead to problems and confusion and so I doubt that will have the roll out and impact hoped for.

My only criticism is that I would have taken them further, simplified more rules, dropped some others.

In answer to your questions, I agree very much with all of the ones the OP quoted. I don't object to any of them.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 14, 2018)

I'm not happy with the drop when OOB, opens up a real can of worms.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2018)

I wasnâ€™t happy with the OOB drop and the Lost ball drop and glad that Congu decided they couldnâ€™t be used in qualifying comps 

Also not a fan of the flag left in - takes a little bit of the skill away , donâ€™t think it saves that much time at all

The rest of the rules arenâ€™t that dramatic but will be interesting to see how the time limits are enforced


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasnâ€™t happy with the OOB drop and the Lost ball drop and glad that Congu decided they couldnâ€™t be used in qualifying comps

Also not a fan of the flag left in - takes a little bit of the skill away , donâ€™t think it saves that much time at all

The rest of the rules arenâ€™t that dramatic but will be interesting to see how the time limits are enforced
		
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I think you will be surprised at the flag. I know we were today.


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## Twire (Dec 14, 2018)

I'm pretty happy with all of them apart from the OOB drop but I don't think many clubs will be taking that up. It will take a while to get used to them and remember the changes, but they are designed to make things more simple.

I'm very good friends with someone on the R&A rules committee and every time I challenged one of the new rules, there was always solid, sound logic behind the change.... saying that, there was one rule that split opinion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			I think you will be surprised at the flag. I know we were today.
		
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We have been doing it as part of â€œWinter Rulesâ€ in social golf for years now  - you can have it out or in but not tended. It gets to be a pain when some want it in and some want it out and I have seen a number of times people over hit putts only for it to hit the pin and stop dead by the hole.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

Twire said:



			I'm pretty happy with all of them apart from the OOB drop but I don't think many clubs will be taking that up. It will take a while to get used to them and remember the changes, but they are designed to make things more simple.

I'm very good friends with someone on the R&A rules committee and every time I challenged one of the new rules, there was always solid, sound logic behind the change.... saying that, there was one rule that split opinion.
		
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What did he say the reason was for the change of drop height to knee height?


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## duncan mackie (Dec 14, 2018)

I reserve judgement on the spike marks and flagstick - both will provide much interest in the new years televised events. Those that remember when the tour hard card was (briefly) permitted to do this (repairing spike marks) as a trial will know what I mean. Time wise it won't make any difference to the pro game because an individual caddy handles each players situation - I anticipate much messing around in the club game ie it will get slower, but really hope I'm wrong.
Singling out the double hit, as done above, is interesting. Firstly if you currently strike it 3 times it's still only a single penalty - so there's no more logic to the existing rule! Second, it's one of the rules that follows the enlightened thinking of many on this forum 'no gain, no pain' and as such I'm surprised people don't approve of the change.
In the same vein I really appreciate those new rules that permit the player to undo his breach of the rules, and avoid penalty. Excellent stuff.
Always seemed silly that a fellow competitor could move your ball when searching for it in the long stuff, but you would get penalised for doing the same...more sense.
A lot of sense around the restructuring of the rules, and writing them so that you get all your info in the one area (most of the time).
There are loads more - principles are sound, application mixed (players edition of rules sets out to be too much for a short document and falls short as a  copy of the rules).


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## duncan mackie (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			What did he say the reason was for the change of drop height to knee height?
		
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To increase the probability of a ball being dropped in the relief area staying in it (rather than more faffing about)


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## Twire (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			What did he say the reason was for the change of drop height to knee height?
		
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'SHE' said because you no longer have the 2 club roll out, and the ball has to stay within the marked area, it's easier to do that from a lower height.


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## pendodave (Dec 14, 2018)

I think the flag rule might be a giraffe to intended consequences. Nasty downhiller? Hitting it firmer at the flag so it stops might help more than it should. We'll see.

Think that a creative use of 'penalty areas' might speed up play by allowing a drop where a ball goes into an area which would normally result in a lost ball or long search.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have been doing it as part of â€œWinter Rulesâ€ in social golf for years now  - you can have it out or in but not tended. It gets to be a pain when some want it in and some want it out and I have seen a number of times people over hit putts only for it to hit the pin and stop dead by the hole.
		
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Fair enough but in a four ball today we certainly noticed we were faster when we didn't much about with the flag. That's a good thing.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I reserve judgement on the spike marks and flagstick - both will provide much interest in the new years televised events. Those that remember when the tour hard card was (briefly) permitted to do this (repairing spike marks) as a trial will know what I mean. Time wise it won't make any difference to the pro game because an individual caddy handles each players situation - I anticipate much messing around in the club game ie it will get slower, but really hope I'm wrong.
Singling out the double hit, as done above, is interesting. Firstly if you currently strike it 3 times it's still only a single penalty - so there's no more logic to the existing rule! Second, it's one of the rules that follows the enlightened thinking of many on this forum 'no gain, no pain' and as such I'm surprised people don't approve of the change.
In the same vein I really appreciate those new rules that permit the player to undo his breach of the rules, and avoid penalty. Excellent stuff.
Always seemed silly that a fellow competitor could move your ball when searching for it in the long stuff, but you would get penalised for doing the same...more sense.
A lot of sense around the restructuring of the rules, and writing them so that you get all your info in the one area (most of the time).
There are loads more - principles are sound, application mixed (players edition of rules sets out to be too much for a short document and falls short as a  copy of the rules).
		
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Why are you surprised that I find a double hit should still be a penalty?


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## shortgame (Dec 14, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			We had a wee discussion about this today while walking around the links.

It's only days away until some fairly "interesting" changes come into play.

I'm liking the fact that I will be able to tap down and fix spike marks, scrapes and imperfections on the putting surface, I think this rule has been a long time in coming and is a good positive move.

I can live with putting out with the flag stick still in and we did this a few times today and we agreed that it actually probably is quicker doing this. No farting about with tending the flag, "I want it left in" - "I want it tended" - "Can you stand the other side please" it actually works well.

I'm pretty sure the "drop" instead of going back to the tee will be fairly widely abused. Not convinced it's a good rule. Then again if it is designed to speed up play I guess it ultimately will do that.

Only 3 minutes to look for a ball. We have all heard the argument that if the ball isn't found in that timescale then it's unlikely you are going to find it etc etc. I think the biggest problem is ettiquette in this rule, I've played numerous times when you or a member of the group sprays one offline and one of the playing partners always says "I didn't see it". I don't get this.

This 3 minute rule will still be abused as much as the current 5 minutes is at present.

My biggest question and criticism is the double hit. For me that is still a penalty. You have struck your ball twice, it's two shots. We've all done it and hopefully all called it on ourselves. Can't work out why that is not still a penalty.

What "new" rules are you happy with or not so happy with?
		
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Agree.  Would add that with 3  minute search time there may be even less chance of being called through


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## chrisd (Dec 14, 2018)

I'm happy with all the new rules except  maybe the 3 minutes search. Someone playing in a 4 ball hits a drive and assumes it'll be ok, gets to the area where it should be and can't find it, he looks for a minute then calls his fellow competitors over,  they take a minute to get to the lost ball area and then they all only have one minute search time left so, in those circumstances he's lost 3 minutes of 3 searchers time.


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## garyinderry (Dec 14, 2018)

I will pretty much be leaving the flag in on all downhill putts unless it leans excessively towards me. 

I can see this causing time delays but those are the new rules and as such I will be using that to my advantage when I can. 

I will also be happy if they were to revert this rule back to the way it was.  It time they may do that once there is a year or two of faffing about with flags on the green.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2018)

Really surprised at the negativity towards the flag.

From one game today I can see there being a lot less farting about over a flag then previously.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

pendodave said:



			I think the flag rule might be a giraffe to intended consequences. Nasty downhiller? Hitting it firmer at the flag so it stops might help more than it should. We'll see.
		
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In my experience this rule has worked well when we have tried it out in casual golf.  Definitely speeds things up on the green - especially when combined with 'ready golf'.


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## garyinderry (Dec 14, 2018)

I will pretty much be leaving the flag in on all downhill putts unless it leans excessively towards me.

I can see this causing time delays but those are the new rules and as such I will be using that to my advantage when I can.

I will also be happy if they were to revert this rule back to the way it was.  It time it may well do.


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## DRW (Dec 14, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Really surprised at the negativity towards the flag.

From one game today I can see there being a lot less farting about over a flag then previously.
		
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On social games we never take the flag out and its so easy and quicker.

Will do the same in comps from the new year apart from the closer putts/ Always found when putting from a distance it is easier and much quicker than waiting for someone to get the flag out (tend not to ever ask for it to be attended)


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## duncan mackie (Dec 14, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Why are you surprised that I find a double hit should still be a penalty?
		
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I'm not; in response to your post I was only surprised at your logic (for the reason given)

However, I would be surprised if a significant number of people on here were to agree with that viewpoint given their posting history.

With so many changes I believe it's more important to look at the principles than the detail in this context - for example I really don't have any view on whether it's a good or bad thing that you can now bounce your ball back into play off your own caddy who's standing OOB without penalty; but the change in principle, and reduction in rules and rulings, associated with the changes that bring it about are welcome.


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## robinthehood (Dec 14, 2018)

Putting with the flag in will be great, now when I hit the ball stone dead I can putt out without having to spend the next ten minutes explaining that its fine to hold the flag in one had and putt out with the other..!


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## richart (Dec 14, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Really surprised at the negativity towards the flag.

From one game today I can see there being a lot less farting about over a flag then previously.
		
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Totally agree. Played it the other day with Liverpoolphil and Blue in Munich, and thought it definitely quicker. Phil probably miffed that he didn't win as usual.

Quicker and saves traffic round the hole. What's not to like ? I will probably take pin out for putts I fancy holing, so pin in outside a foot.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

Twire said:



			'SHE' said because you no longer have the 2 club roll out, and the ball has to stay within the marked area, it's easier to do that from a lower height.
		
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Not sure that will make any difference in a lot of cases e.g. where slopes are involved. Still seems a pointless change IMO.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Not sure that will make any difference in a lot of cases e.g. where slopes are involved. Still seems a pointless change IMO.
		
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It only needs to make a (positive)  difference overall to make it non pointless - and as exhaustive tests around the height and size of the relief area have shown it makes a huge difference. Not that much more likely to leave the relief area than dropping from 1" ie there are some situations where it's not going to stay ever, even if placed, but that doesn't make implementation of a change pointless.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 14, 2018)

richart said:



			Totally agree. Played it the other day with Liverpoolphil and Blue in Munich, and thought it definitely quicker. Phil probably miffed that he didn't win as usual.

Quicker and saves traffic round the hole. What's not to like ? I will probably take pin out for putts I fancy holing, so pin in outside a foot.

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Left in as opposed to tended, where more than one person will have it tended, will provide a slight reduction in traffic at the hole, and in extreme situations a time save.

For the vast majority of situations on the green it won't make any difference at all, unless someone who would currently have it out from 8ft wants it back in when it's already been removed....at which point things have the capability to get very confused and time-consuming. As ever, what people read and observe on the TV will inevitably influence their choices - and whilst the rhetoric has already started it's what happens on screen that will count. BdeC leaving it in for a down hill 2ft putt could have a very high price!
We will see.


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## user104 (Dec 14, 2018)

Rather than start another thread.

 i wonder whats the opinion on the new handicap of 54 , that the main reason im trying this game again


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## Beedee (Dec 14, 2018)

I think the flag rule will improve things overall.  But the ones that will get the biggest improvment from it are probably the groups that need it least, i.e. the ones that just get one with it anyway.  Faffers are gonna faf regardless.


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## Imurg (Dec 14, 2018)

I'm happy with the flag in rule but it has potential to slow things up if some want the flag in and some want it out.
The OOB/Lost ball rule is just a waste of time I think. Too complicated and too open to abuse.
Knee high drop - ok but will it speed things up?
Tapping spike marks etc is, on the face of it a good one but, again, it has the potential to make things slower if some people get excessive.
Not particularly likely but the potential is there.
Moving loose impediments in penalty areas is good as is no penalty for moving your ball in a search...

Generally happy with them though.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 14, 2018)

Really happy with the flag rule. 
Means I can just smack it up to the hole as I go to place my bag near the next tee. Would only do this if Iâ€™m short or long 20-30 feet.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

Don't have a problem with the OOB rule change. Its not much different from if you'd hit ball into a water hazard.

Flagstick rule change I don't like. Scenario; Fast, sloping green. You've hit your ball into the green, below the hole. Your opponent has hit his above the hole, and its mega fast going back down to the hole. He plays first and the ball is steaming down the hill, hits the flag and goes in. Nah, don't agree with the rule change.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			It only needs to make a (positive)  difference overall to make it non pointless - and as exhaustive tests around the height and size of the relief area have shown it makes a huge difference. Not that much more likely to leave the relief area than dropping from 1" ie there are some situations where it's not going to stay ever, even if placed, but that doesn't make implementation of a change pointless.
		
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Sorry, not convinced.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Sorry, not convinced.
		
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No need to be sorry, and it's neither relevant whether you are convinced or what I've posted is relevant.

The only thing that matters is what happens in practice...and there will be stats presented around all of these things over time!


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## USER1999 (Dec 14, 2018)

Double hit. Hard to do intentionally. Has anyone really benefitted from a double hit? Normally it is a poor shot, made no better by a rinky dink. Can't see the problem. It's not like you are flicking it up, and then spanking it. It's chunk, clunk, oops.


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## TheDork (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Flagstick rule change I don't like. Scenario; Fast, sloping green. You've hit your ball into the green, below the hole. Your opponent has hit his above the hole, and its mega fast going back down to the hole. He plays first and the ball is steaming down the hill, hits the flag and goes in. Nah, don't agree with the rule change.
		
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Rub of the green, these things tend to even out over the course of time, like when you're above the cup a few weeks later. Much like every time you hit it in to the trees, some pop out, some don't, though we always seem to remember the time when they don't and curse our luck, we're a funny bunch us golfers.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			No need to be sorry, and it's neither relevant whether you are convinced or what I've posted is relevant.

The only thing that matters is what happens in practice...and there will be stats presented around all of these things over time!
		
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Not that it matters, but where I'm coming from is I didn't think there was a problem or issue to solve i.e. the existing rules were fine. And the fact that dropping from knee height is physically more awkward than dropping from shoulder height, for me there would need to be some benefit to be gained to outweigh the more awkward dropping style, and as I said I don't see what the problem was with the existing rules.

But of course the rules folk are far more knowledgeable on the topic than I am, but I personally didn't see any issues with they way we were doing it before.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

TheDork said:



			Rub of the green, these things tend to even out over the course of time, like when you're above the cup a few weeks later. Much like every time you hit it in to the trees, some pop out, some don't, though we always seem to remember the time when they don't and curse our luck, we're a funny bunch us golfers.
		
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Rub of the green, a few weeks later, doesn't get you back in the club knockout. I agree, that over the course of a season, it'll balance out.


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## louise_a (Dec 14, 2018)

graphite1205 said:



			Rather than start another thread.

i wonder whats the opinion on the new handicap of 54 , that the main reason im trying this game again
		
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It works fine for us,


The only new rule I had a problem with was the OOB one, but as its not allowed in qualifiers  then its not a problem 
any more


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## jim8flog (Dec 14, 2018)

Without picking out any specific rule I am glad to see a lot of the accidental stuff no longer getting a penalty.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 14, 2018)

Only the flag rule really .
We have tried this and it not as helpful as everyone thinks.

Canâ€™t see a reason for the change of names , penalty area, might as well call the rest the pitch.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Don't have a problem with the OOB rule change. Its not much different from if you'd hit ball into a water hazard.

Flagstick rule change I don't like. Scenario; Fast, sloping green. You've hit your ball into the green, below the hole. Your opponent has hit his above the hole, and its mega fast going back down to the hole. He plays first and the ball is steaming down the hill, hits the flag and goes in. Nah, don't agree with the rule change.
		
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No different to chipping in off the back fringe, racing down the hill, smacks the pin and goes in. The objective is to aim at the hole and hope it goes in.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Only the flag rule really .
We have tried this and it not as helpful as everyone thinks.

Canâ€™t see a reason for the change of names , penalty area, might as well call the rest the pitch.
		
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After today I've got to be honest I'm happy with the flag in rule and tbh can see me leaving the flag  in 100% of the time.

Even putting into our heavy metal.pins the ball wasn't bouncing off them and missing.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 14, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			After today I've got to be honest I'm happy with the flag in rule and tbh can see me leaving the flag  in 100% of the time.

Even putting into our heavy metal.pins the ball wasn't bouncing off them and missing.
		
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Our flags taper in at the bottom, I just found if it hits it flush itâ€™s ok, but a glancing blow just dosnt go in.


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## garyinderry (Dec 14, 2018)

louise_a said:



			It works fine for us,


The only new rule I had a problem with was the OOB one, but as its not allowed in qualifiers  then its not a problem
any more
		
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If it is not to be used in qualifiers then when is it?

Match play??    Strange one this.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			If it is not to be used in qualifiers then when is it?

Match play??    Strange one this.
		
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Friendlies, Society Days etc


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## Bigfoot (Dec 14, 2018)

I have never liked the flag in unless I cannot see the base or is a  long way away - and that is rare. That I can't see the base !


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## 6535 (Dec 14, 2018)

Unless  your in a group that all are happy to putt with the flag in, I can see it's going to slow things up. Player A is 30ft away and (ready to play) wants flag out, but player B 35ft away and not ready but wants the flag left in, and player C is to'ing and fro'ing pulling flag out, putting it back in, whilst tapping down spike marks as well!!! All taking TIME the anti slow brigade......
And by the sounds of some on here, you're more accurate at hitting a skinny flag pole with your putting then a 4 1/2" hole with no flag in it????????ðŸ¤”


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## backwoodsman (Dec 14, 2018)

Generally happy with them.

I don't see that "flag in" is going to cause delay - I just see it that if you're ready to go for a long putt, and the flag is in, then you can take a putt without risk of penalty. Usually I'm waiting around to take long putts - so the combination of "ready golf" and "flag in" means I'll be farting around rather  less than now.

 I like the removal of double hit as a penalty, and likewise the removal of a penalty for an accidental deflection . After all, if you hit yourself with your own ball, it is already a crap shot with the ball travelling in the wrong direction. Did not like the alternate to stroke & distance, but the Congu decision means the LR is not being introduced at our place, so it's not an issue.


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## Wolf (Dec 15, 2018)

I actually think all the new changes are positive with the exception of the Drop rule being OK in casual play but then not allowed in comps. Either allow it for both or don't allow it at all that's simpler..


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## ExRabbit (Dec 15, 2018)

6535 said:



			Unless  your in a group that all are happy to putt with the flag in, I can see it's going to slow things up. Player A is 30ft away and (ready to play) wants flag out, but player B 35ft away and not ready but wants the flag left in, and player C is to'ing and fro'ing pulling flag out, putting it back in, whilst tapping down spike marks as well!!! All taking TIME the anti slow brigade......
And by the sounds of some on here, you're more accurate at hitting a skinny flag pole with your putting then a 4 1/2" hole with no flag in it????????ðŸ¤”
		
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Ready golf will sort this out. 30 foot man plays first whilst the rest sort themselves out - I am going to be an assertive ready golfer btw! And I will have the flag in a lot of the time. And I will almost always be the fastest golfer in the group, so I am not going to worry about that.


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## Imurg (Dec 15, 2018)

ExRabbit said:



			Ready golf will sort this out. 30 foot man plays first whilst the rest sort themselves out - I am going to be an assertive ready golfer btw! And I will have the flag in a lot of the time. And I will almost always be the fastest golfer in the group, so I am not going to worry about that.
		
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Unless you have an issue with standing on other players lines.
Just say you have 4 balls on a green all in a similar area but different distance from the flag.
Players who want the flag out are on the same line as those who want it in.
You've also got the potential issue of another ball being on or near your line.
You might want to play ready golf but there's a ball in the way...
There's plenty of potential for pace of play going either way with the flag in rule.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2018)

I hope I'm wrong but I think repairing pitch marks and spike marks could make rounds much longer


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## Jimaroid (Dec 15, 2018)

I don't think it's been mentioned, one thing that's going to niggle me with the flag stick in rule is that I think it will lead to increased wear on the edge of the hole through people retrieving the ball by lazily yanking at the stick. I do like a nice cleanly cut hole and maybe there's nothing to worry about but watching people do this is going to make me grind my teeth more than it used to.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I hope I'm wrong but I think repairing pitch marks and spike marks could make rounds much longer
		
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I donâ€™t see many spike marks these days with modern shoes.
Get the odd one now and again.
I would hope Pitchmarks are always repaired

We need to make sure players donâ€™t start gardening on the greens.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			We need to make sure players donâ€™t start gardening on the greens.
		
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That's what I was thinking.
Players tapping down every little blemish on a 30 foot putt


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## Jacko_G (Dec 15, 2018)

Why would you want the flag out from 35 feet anyway?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2018)

It's interesting that the spike mark worry comes up so often. I've never played with anyone that fussy about greens. I don't expect that to change.

For those who expect problems is it mainly low handicappers that are likely to be the guilty ones?


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## jim8flog (Dec 15, 2018)

One of the things I like about the new drop rule is that it makes aiming for a precise spot a little easier and the ball is much more likely to stay on the chosen spot.


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## jim8flog (Dec 15, 2018)

It should be remembered that repairing damage to a green does come with the requirement that it does not unduly delay play and the 40 second guideline should be used.


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## robinthehood (Dec 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's interesting that the spike mark worry comes up so often. I've never played with anyone that fussy about greens. I don't expect that to change.

For those who expect problems is it mainly low handicappers that are likely to be the guilty ones?
		
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Maybe they are just aware they can't do much at present. I'm pleased about this, quite annoying when there is a big scuff on your line


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## 6535 (Dec 15, 2018)

And you can say why would you want the flag in from 35ft...... pedantic


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## garyinderry (Dec 15, 2018)

New flag etiquette may be that the first to putt lags up and taps in or marks and then does the flag hokey pokey for everyone else. 


Played with this new flag in rule today for a bit of fun.  had the flag in for a large amount of the putts.


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## HughJars (Dec 15, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Fair enough but in a four ball today we certainly noticed we were faster when we didn't much about with the flag. That's a good thing.
		
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I'd already decided I'll be putting nearly every oputt with the flag in, especially the knee knockers. And I appreciate your guys today agreed to trial with the flag in.

However in practice this surely won't be the case? Already for chips/putts just off the green you have a mix of players who want the flag out or in. Going forward this is going to apply for every putt. 

I like the change, but I actually think it will slow play down rather than the reverse. 


Only rule I don't like is the OOB/Lost ball drop, but as it's now been decreed by CONGU that it's not applicable in competition play, then it's a non issue, indeed basically now a redundant rule.


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## bladeplayer (Dec 16, 2018)

Like most I didn't agree with the OOB but not relevant to qualifiers so no bothered about it , but rest are grand . Can't see many exactly replacing ball after moving during search tho ,but cheaters will cheat no mater what ..

Will still take flag out for now


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## Oddsocks (Dec 16, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I'm not happy with the drop when OOB, opens up a real can of worms.
		
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This, massively open to abuse.  If itâ€™s out and no prov was played from the tee, enjoy the walk of shame! Clear cut!


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## Rlburnside (Dec 16, 2018)

Oddsocks said:



			This, massively open to abuse.  If itâ€™s out and no prov was played from the tee, enjoy the walk of shame! Clear cut!
		
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Seems a redundant rule to me, can't be used for qualifiers so how can it be open to abuse?


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## Grant85 (Dec 16, 2018)

Re: having the flag in. 

I personally believe it is an advantage to leave the flag in, unless it is very windy or flag is leaning towards your ball for some reason. 

I will definitely be happy to leave the flag in, especially in cases I would have otherwise had it tended.
I will also be making a point of putting with the flag in if I am first to putt rather than waiting for everyone... especially if someone is playing a chip or bunker shot... as soon as they have played it means I can putt. Even if they are only on the fringe or in another bunker closer to the green.

Personally think it could speed up play a lot. Especially if everyone leaves it in for long / lag putts, then by the time it comes out, you might only have to lay the flag down a few paces from the hole. 

Appreciate some people could end up pissing about and asking for the flag to go back in after someone has taken it out, but hopefully most people are happy to speed things up where they can. 

I also reckon it would be helpful for the bodies to cicrcuate stats that show putts are more likely to drop with the flag in. I guess these will exist soon enough when the pros start doing it. Personally amazed at pros having the flag out for chip shots or putting from the fringe. 

Re: the drop. I believe this is to decrease the likelihood of the ball travelling after the drop and having to make multiple drops before placing. Again, aimed at speeding up play. Donâ€™t have an issue with it and if the drop was always made from knee level, no one would question it.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 16, 2018)

6535 said:



			And you can say why would you want the flag in from 35ft...... pedantic
		
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Not sure what is pedantic about it?

From 35 feet away I'd imagine 9/10 people would ask for it to be tended. Therefore just walking up and putting instead of waiting for someone to mark then get the flag surely is advantageous?


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Really surprised at the negativity towards the flag.

From one game today I can see there being a lot less farting about over a flag then previously.
		
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totally agree, far less buggering about with the flag esp for us with very large greens


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 17, 2018)

Happy with all the changes.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 17, 2018)

Hit the flag with 3 15ft putts today , good pace and all stayed out.

I am not sure if itâ€™s a good thing at that distance.
I do think itâ€™s advantageous in certain situations thatâ€™s why it was not allowed in the past.


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## SGC001 (Dec 17, 2018)

Some good, some not bothered some bad.

Searching for a ball and accidentally kicking it good
Embedded ball good, but open should adopt it
Dmds etc in on default good
Spike marks good

Flagstick can live with

Accidentally hitting own ball on green after marking or it moving ok with

Bunker testing sand or accidental is a can of worms similarly anything like that which can lead to intention abuse or arguments

Oob lost ball, good on congu

3 mins not impressed, just tweak and enforce current ettiquette of letting people through

Pick and cheat to id your ball simply a cheaters charter. (Edited to take clean out of well known saying)

Stones in bunkers bad, rethink needed

Dropping change dumb as not fit for said purpose of requiring less drops, drop it on the edge, redrop, place.

Ground club in penalty areas ok with

No lining up ok with

Dropping out of a bunker dont care

Like the pics in players guide book, dont like that half of it says refer to rule book as it makes it pointless.


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## Badger (Dec 18, 2018)

my only thought re the flag is that there will only be less time/faffing spent if everybody in the group is all out or all in.  say all in a 4ball are within 10 feet and the first to putt wants it out, then the second wants it back in, third out, and fourth in, think this will lead to more or at least the same as presently.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 18, 2018)

Badger said:



			my only thought re the flag is that there will only be less time/faffing spent if everybody in the group is all out or all in.  say all in a 4ball are within 10 feet and the first to putt wants it out, then the second wants it back in, third out, and fourth in, think this will lead to more or at least the same as presently.
		
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In out sounds like a Hokey Cokey around the hole that canâ€™t be good.

Most low cappers I asked have the flag out as long as they can see the hole and said â€œcanâ€™t see this changing.â€
Most high cappers I have asked say they will leave it in.
Maybe thatâ€™s just a confidence thing but this Hokey Cokey will happen.


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## DaveR (Dec 18, 2018)

Regarding the OOB dropping a ball rule. I think this could have an effect in social play because someone may have a higher handicap due to their driving being poor (based on qualifying rounds) but in social play they can drop a ball up the fairway on holes they struggle on in competitions. So this would result in them getting too many shots for their ability when playing social golf and potentially winning money in swindles etc. Or have I read too much into the situation??


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2018)

DaveR said:



			Regarding the OOB dropping a ball rule. I think this could have an effect in social play because someone may have a higher handicap due to their driving being poor (based on qualifying rounds) but in social play they can drop a ball up the fairway on holes they struggle on in competitions. So this would result in them getting too many shots for their ability when playing social golf and potentially winning money in swindles etc. Or have I read too much into the situation??  

Click to expand...

Possibly over thinking it, weâ€™re considering introduceing it as a local rule at our club as an option for use in social golf and societies to use.
It will be down to the golfers themselves whether they use it for social play or in society days.
Donâ€™t forget it can be used for lost balls as well and for visitors it may help.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2018)

DaveR said:



			Regarding the OOB dropping a ball rule. I think this could have an effect in social play because someone may have a higher handicap due to their driving being poor (based on qualifying rounds) but in social play they can drop a ball up the fairway on holes they struggle on in competitions. So this would result in them getting too many shots for their ability when playing social golf and potentially winning money in swindles etc. Or have I read too much into the situation??  

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It is still a 2 shot penalty though, that is quite a hit. If your 2nd shot is actually shot no 4 that is quite a bit of damage on that hole.


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## 2blue (Dec 18, 2018)

For EG & Congu to outlaw the Lost-ball/OOB possibility without trying it, to at least find out how it would go, is for me a real shame & lost opportunity of really speeding up the game with, perhaps, little impact on H/caps.
It would also have really supported the 3min search time as its far easier to say to a fellow competitor, after they've clearly had their 3mins "I think you'll be dropping around about here!!".....  rather than....  "I think your time's up"


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## DaveR (Dec 18, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is still a 2 shot penalty though, that is quite a hit. If your 2nd shot is actually shot no 4 that is quite a bit of damage on that hole.
		
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Yes but if you play 3 off the tee then your next shot further down the fairway is also your 4th shot so no difference. However, you could be playing 5, 7 or more off the tee and your handicap will be based on that wayward driving ability. Although I'm not sure how this would tie in with the nett double bogey rule which is really why I'm questioning this new rule.


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## DRW (Dec 18, 2018)

DaveR said:



			Yes but if you play 3 off the tee then your next shot further down the fairway is also your 4th shot so no difference. However, you could be playing 5, 7 or more off the tee and your handicap will be based on that wayward driving ability. Although I'm not sure how this would tie in with the nett double bogey rule which is really why I'm questioning this new rule.
		
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Handicap is based on stableford as you say, so whether you are dropping down the fairway or off the tee, there is a good chance that the handicap adjustment will be the same whether you are 3,5,7 off the tee or down the fairway. Yeah for medals maybe the winner could benefit but the current rules someone 'made up' and people comply with. Just change the rule and people comply with that. There are people who dont like change for whatever reason, but I only see this rule as a positive change really and one that when I first starting playing never really understood why it was stroke and distance off the tee (I appreciate the area to be dropped could be abused, but within reason this is not going to cause any problems)

I agree with 2Blue, a real shame this has not been brought in I think, hopefully it will come in next time.


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## xreyuk (Dec 18, 2018)

You can still have the flag tended canâ€™t you?


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## jim8flog (Dec 18, 2018)

xreyuk said:



			You can still have the flag tended canâ€™t you?
		
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 Yes - but if you have it attended it *mus*t taken out before the ball reaches the hole and if the ball strikes the flagstick left in the hole it is a penalty. 

Similarly having decided to have the flagstick taken out you cannot change your mind once the ball is in motion.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 18, 2018)

I'm starting the season off as a positive "flag in" guy. Even classing myself as a "low-ish" golfer I'll be flag in from everywhere.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 18, 2018)

Has anyone actually got a timer on their trolley for 5 mins / 3mins .
Push button when search starts buzzer after set time .
Would save a lot of arguing as some players deffo abuse this timing.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 18, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Yes - but if you have it attended it *mus*t taken out before the ball reaches the hole and if the ball strikes the flagstick DELIBERATELY left in the hole it is a penalty. 

Similarly having decided to have the flagstick taken out you cannot change your mind once the ball is in motion.
		
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Just tidied that up for you. ðŸ‘


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## TheDork (Dec 18, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Has anyone actually got a timer on their trolley for 5 mins / 3mins .
Push button when search starts buzzer after set time .
Would save a lot of arguing as some players deffo abuse this timing.
		
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I have never seen nor heard of a single player in my life looking at a watch at the start of a search and end of one, every time over the course of a few decades, the 5 minutes has always been assumed, strange but true.


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Has anyone actually got a timer on their trolley for 5 mins / 3mins .
Push button when search starts buzzer after set time .
Would save a lot of arguing as some players deffo abuse this timing.
		
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ive a timer on my Motocaddy trolley, always set it if looking for a ball, 5 mins is always longer than you think.... 3 isn't though


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## Jacko_G (Dec 18, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			ive a timer on my Motocaddy trolley, always set it if looking for a ball, 5 mins is always longer than you think.... 3 isn't though

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Agree - the most abused rule in golf.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 18, 2018)

My mate lights a cigarette and if he has not found it by the time he finishes thatâ€™s it.
He seems to puff harder when itâ€™s my ball.

I am surprised some form of timer isnâ€™t compulsory.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 18, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Has anyone actually got a timer on their trolley for 5 mins / 3mins .
Push button when search starts buzzer after set time .
Would save a lot of arguing as some players deffo abuse this timing.
		
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Not got a timer but I will make a look at my watch when we're in the vicinity and let the PP know when they've had what I'd consider four minutes and suggest he hasn't long left. I'll simply let them know in 2019 when I think 3 minutes is over.


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## shortgame (Dec 18, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			ive a timer on my Motocaddy trolley, always set it if looking for a ball, 5 mins is always longer than you think.... 3 isn't though

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Same, after a couple of contentious issues over the past couple of years I've taken to timing it either on trolley or phone.

Strangely some people's estimation of time seems to differ depending on whose ball they're looking for!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2018)

DaveR said:



			Yes but if you play 3 off the tee then your next shot further down the fairway is also your 4th shot so no difference. However, you could be playing 5, 7 or more off the tee and your handicap will be based on that wayward driving ability. Although I'm not sure how this would tie in with the nett double bogey rule which is really why I'm questioning this new rule.
		
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Sorry, you are quite right.  Brain fade.


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## 6535 (Dec 18, 2018)

Badger said:



			my only thought re the flag is that there will only be less time/faffing spent if everybody in the group is all out or all in.  say all in a 4ball are within 10 feet and the first to putt wants it out, then the second wants it back in, third out, and fourth in, think this will lead to more or at least the same as presently.
		
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Next it will be, can you draw players out by flag in or out preference!!!!! ðŸ™„ I canâ€™t see it changing myself, and I for one wonâ€™t be changing in my having the flag out,  I want the hole to be the maximum size not make it smaller, but like I said earlier there must be some dead eye dicks, or theyâ€™ve been reading dechambeauâ€™s scientific theory in leaving the flag in.


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## Imurg (Dec 19, 2018)

6535 said:



			Next it will be, can you draw players out by flag in or out preference!!!!! ðŸ™„ I canâ€™t see it changing myself, and I for one wonâ€™t be changing in my having the flag out,  I want the hole to be the maximum size not make it smaller, but like I said earlier there must be some dead eye dicks, or theyâ€™ve been reading dechambeauâ€™s scientific theory in leaving the flag in.
		
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To be fair, and I don't said this before, when I play solo I always leave the flag in as it gives me a smaller target to aim at and I know that if I get the pace right and hitnthe flag then the ball will probably drop.
A bit like using small holes on the practice green - makes the hole seem bigger out on the course and focusses the view.
I'm going to be a bit half and half depending on the particular green.


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## AMcC (Dec 19, 2018)

shortgame said:



			Same, after a couple of contentious issues over the past couple of years I've taken to timing it either on trolley or phone.

Strangely some people's estimation of time seems to differ depending on whose ball they're looking for! 

Click to expand...

I played with a pro earlier this year and was interested to hear his thoughts. If he was playing in a tournament he would start to time looking for a ball, his view was, they are playing for more money than us and the guy looking for his ball could ultimately beat him.


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## HughJars (Dec 19, 2018)

2blue said:



			For EG & Congu to outlaw the Lost-ball/OOB possibility without trying it, to at least find out how it would go, is for me a real shame & lost opportunity of really speeding up the game with, perhaps, little impact on H/caps.
It would also have really supported the 3min search time as its far easier to say to a fellow competitor, after they've clearly had their 3mins "I think you'll be dropping around about here!!".....  rather than....  "I think your time's up"
		
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Seems most clubs weren't going to adopt it anyway, mine wasn't, so this just keeps everyone the same. Good move by CONGU imo


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Seems most clubs weren't going to adopt it anyway, mine wasn't, so this just keeps everyone the same. Good move by CONGU imo
		
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If it had been brought in as a RoG rather than a â€œLocal Ruleâ€ choice CONGU would of had to accepted it.
Iâ€™m on the fence with it to be honest, I could see some positivity in it.
Itâ€™ll be interesting to see what happens when we move to the WHS.


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## jim8flog (Dec 19, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			If it had been brought in as a RoG rather than a â€œLocal Ruleâ€ choice CONGU would of had to accepted it.
Iâ€™m on the fence with it to be honest, I could see some positivity in it.
Itâ€™ll be interesting to see what happens when we move to the WHS.
		
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 I doubt this will be on the agenda for changes to CONGU rules for the WHS.

One of the reasons for turning it down at our club was because of all the extra work that would have been needed* to the course to bring it in for every hole and if it was not in for every hole there are loads of players that do not read the LRs any way and would just assume it was.

* The rule works fine on holes that are relatively straight and shortish par 3s.  
It does not work well on holes with severe doglegs or long par 3s where the grass cut to fairway height does not start until a long distance off the tee.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			I doubt this will be on the agenda for changes to CONGU rules for the WHS.

One of the reasons for turning it down at our club was because of all the extra work that would have been needed* to the course to bring it in for every hole and if it was not in for every hole there are loads of players that do not read the LRs any way and would just assume it was.

* The rule works fine on holes that are relatively straight and shortish par 3s. 
It does not work well on holes with severe doglegs or long par 3s where the grass cut to fairway height does not start until a long distance off the tee.
		
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I was under the impression the WHS covers the world and CONGU only UK, so having it allowed in qualifiers in every area but ours makes a mockery of the WHS.


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## Orikoru (Dec 19, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			We had a wee discussion about this today while walking around the links.

It's only days away until some fairly "interesting" changes come into play.

(1) I'm liking the fact that I will be able to tap down and fix spike marks, scrapes and imperfections on the putting surface, I think this rule has been a long time in coming and is a good positive move.

(2) I can live with putting out with the flag stick still in and we did this a few times today and we agreed that it actually probably is quicker doing this. No farting about with tending the flag, "I want it left in" - "I want it tended" - "Can you stand the other side please" it actually works well.

(3) I'm pretty sure the "drop" instead of going back to the tee will be fairly widely abused. Not convinced it's a good rule. Then again if it is designed to speed up play I guess it ultimately will do that.

(4) Only 3 minutes to look for a ball. We have all heard the argument that if the ball isn't found in that timescale then it's unlikely you are going to find it etc etc. I think the biggest problem is ettiquette in this rule, I've played numerous times when you or a member of the group sprays one offline and one of the playing partners always says "I didn't see it". I don't get this.

This 3 minute rule will still be abused as much as the current 5 minutes is at present.

(5) My biggest question and criticism is the double hit. For me that is still a penalty. You have struck your ball twice, it's two shots. We've all done it and hopefully all called it on ourselves. Can't work out why that is not still a penalty.

What "new" rules are you happy with or not so happy with?
		
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1. Yeah, I don't think it's fair having to putt over a spike mark or unrepaired pitch mark, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to repair them.
2. I think it will definitely speed up play, if you're the first to the green and first to putt, you don't need to wait for someone else to come and tend the flag stick. In friendly knocks we were already doing this some of the time, so will be quite seamless to do on comp rounds as well going forward.
3. Personally I don't think I'll ever use it, since it's 2 penalty shots I don't find it very appealing. I would rather hit a provisional, find the fairway with an iron and be playing my 4th from there; as opposed to taking a drop in the rough next to the OOB markers and be playing my 4th from there. As you touch upon, it may just speed up play on the rare occasions people have gone OOB unexpectedly and not played a provisional. 
4. I'm not sure what changing it from 5 to 3 will achieve. I don't think I've ever played with anyone who actually timed 5 minutes when people were looking for a ball. They just look until the person whose ball it is gives up, saying something like 'oh I think 5 mins is up anyway'. So I don't know that 3 mins will be rigidly adhered to really.
5. I'm not sure anyone in the history of golf has ever hit a double hit intentionally, plus the result of it is almost never beneficial, so my opinion is that it's not really fair to give them a penalty shot as well.  So I'm happy for it not be a penalty.

Can't remember any other rule changes off the top of my head so I just replied to your ones.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			1. Yeah, I don't think it's fair having to putt over a spike mark or unrepaired pitch mark, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to repair them.
2. I think it will definitely speed up play, if you're the first to the green and first to putt, you don't need to wait for someone else to come and tend the flag stick. In friendly knocks we were already doing this some of the time, so will be quite seamless to do on comp rounds as well going forward.
3. Personally I don't think I'll ever use it, since it's 2 penalty shots I don't find it very appealing. I would rather hit a provisional, find the fairway with an iron and be playing my 4th from there; as opposed to taking a drop in the rough next to the OOB markers and be playing my 4th from there. As you touch upon, it may just speed up play on the rare occasions people have gone OOB unexpectedly and not played a provisional.
4. I'm not sure what changing it from 5 to 3 will achieve. I don't think I've ever played with anyone who actually timed 5 minutes when people were looking for a ball. They just look until the person whose ball it is gives up, saying something like 'oh I think 5 mins is up anyway'. So I don't know that 3 mins will be rigidly adhered to really.
5. I'm not sure anyone in the history of golf has ever hit a double hit intentionally, plus the result of it is almost never beneficial, so my opinion is that it's not really fair to give them a penalty shot as well.  So I'm happy for it not be a penalty.

Can't remember any other rule changes off the top of my head so I just replied to your ones.
		
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If you do play a course which allows the OOB rule, you donâ€™t drop it in the rough, you drop it on the fairway, no nearer the hole, in line of were the ball went out.


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## bernix (Dec 19, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasnâ€™t happy with the OOB drop and the Lost ball drop and glad that Congu decided they couldnâ€™t be used in qualifying comps

Also not a fan of the flag left in - takes a little bit of the skill away , donâ€™t think it saves that much time at all

The rest of the rules arenâ€™t that dramatic but will be interesting to see how the time limits are enforced
		
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most of times there isn't much skill involved to pull the flagstick out of the hole


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## Orikoru (Dec 19, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			If you do play a course which allows the OOB rule, you donâ€™t drop it in the rough, you drop it on the fairway, no nearer the hole, in line of were the ball went out.
		
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Oh, ok, my misunderstanding of the rule then. I still don't think it would get used that much. As I say, it just saves time of walking back to the tee I suppose. I still don't know if my club is planning to allow this rule or not.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Oh, ok, my misunderstanding of the rule then. I still don't think it would get used that much. As I say, it just saves time of walking back to the tee I suppose. I still don't know if my club is planning to allow this rule or not.
		
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Weâ€™re not adopting it either, however, itâ€™ll be encouraged as a â€œclub ruleâ€ for use by Societies and members playing a bounce game, worth remembering itâ€™s the same rule covering a lost ball and again it may be useful to save going back to replay a shot and probably like most do now in a bounce game, drop a ball and add 2 shots.


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## Orikoru (Dec 19, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Weâ€™re not adopting it either, however, itâ€™ll be encouraged as a â€œclub ruleâ€ for use by Societies and members playing a bounce game, worth remembering itâ€™s the same rule covering a lost ball and again it may be useful to save going back to replay a shot and probably like most do now in a bounce game, drop a ball and add 2 shots.
		
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To be honest, in my friendly rounds if we lose a ball, out of bounds or otherwise, we've always done a drop with _one_ shot penalty (like a normal drop for anything else I guess). So maybe we should bump that up to two next year! But also we would take that drop in the rough near as possible to where lost ball would have likely been. So I dunno, we'll just have to discuss what we do from now on I suppose.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 19, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I was under the impression the WHS covers the world and CONGU only UK, so having it allowed in qualifiers in every area but ours makes a mockery of the WHS.
		
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There will be regional differences over which scores can/will count in the handicap calculation.
A huge number of those with official USGA handicaps aren't even a member of a club, let alone play in any competitions; this rule is first and foremost designed to bring some consistency as to how they score, and proceed, in such situations (currently they do lots of different things and add, or not, various penalties when doing them!).
The starting position for nearly everyone world wide will be extremely similar to where it's at at the moment regarding the cards that will count - aspirationally it's intended to get as close as practicable consistent with furthering the participation in the sport and the integrity of the handicaps held (ie it's never likely to be exactly the same everywhere!)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			There will be regional differences over which scores can/will count in the handicap calculation.
A huge number of those with official USGA handicaps aren't even a member of a club, let alone play in any competitions; this rule is first and foremost designed to bring some consistency as to how they score, and proceed, in such situations (currently they do lots of different things and add, or not, various penalties when doing them!).
The starting position for nearly everyone world wide will be extremely similar to where it's at at the moment regarding the cards that will count - aspirationally it's intended to get as close as practicable consistent with furthering the participation in the sport and the integrity of the handicaps held (ie it's never likely to be exactly the same everywhere!)
		
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Thanks for that, what I was basing my answer on was, when the question was asked at the England Golf presentation, the answer given was that, CONGU were intending to monitor the situation over the next 12 months as both they and England Golf were unsure as to how their decision would affect the WHS.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 19, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Thanks for that, what I was basing my answer on was, when the question was asked at the England Golf presentation, the answer given was that, CONGU were intending to monitor the situation over the next 12 months as both they and England Golf were unsure as to how their decision would affect the WHS.
		
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I'm sure you see the fundamental flaw in that answer?

But just in case....as a permitted LR clubs can choose whether or not to implement it, even if CONGU permit it for Q comps;  so it's pretty meaningless in the context of the WHS whether THEY choose to permit it or not! (Accepting that if they did permit it some clubs may choose to implement it)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I'm sure you see the fundamental flaw in that answer?

But just in case....as a permitted LR clubs can choose whether or not to implement it, even if CONGU permit it for Q comps;  so it's pretty meaningless in the context of the WHS whether THEY choose to permit it or not! (Accepting that if they did permit it some clubs may choose to implement it)
		
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Hence the confusion on the night.


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## jim8flog (Dec 19, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			If you do play a course which allows the OOB rule, you donâ€™t drop it in the rough, you drop it on the fairway, no nearer the hole, in line of were the ball went out.
		
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Or nearest point of grass cut to fairway height or less. (hence my comments about additional work for greens staff , creating new areas of closely mown).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Or nearest point of grass cut to fairway height or less. (hence my comments about additional work for greens staff , creating new areas of closely mown).
		
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Why cut extra areas? Thatâ€™s your club creating work for itself!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 19, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Or nearest point of grass cut to fairway height or less. (hence my comments about additional work for greens staff , creating new areas of closely mown).
		
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The problem with this is imo.
They could have made it a rule of golf but donâ€™t want pros and elite ams using it, even though they are the ones least likely to use it.
Whenâ€™s the last time we saw a pro oob or lose his/her ball very rarely.

Whatâ€™s the official line to having different rules for them and the rest of us.?


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## jim8flog (Dec 19, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			The problem with this is imo.
They could have made it a rule of golf but donâ€™t want pros and elite ams using it, even though they are the ones least likely to use it.
Whenâ€™s the last time we saw a pro oob or lose his/her ball very rarely.

Whatâ€™s the official line to having different rules for them and the rest of us.?
		
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 They already do it e.g. their lift clean and place is within a club length.

It is called Conditions of the Competition

When we hold county events  and major junior events, such as the South of England Boys Open, the competitors are told to ignore our local rules and are given a LR sheet which the organisers have approved.


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## HankMarvin (Dec 19, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Re: having the flag in.

I personally believe it is an advantage to leave the flag in, unless it is very windy or flag is leaning towards your ball for some reason.

I will definitely be happy to leave the flag in, especially in cases I would have otherwise had it tended.
I will also be making a point of putting with the flag in if I am first to putt rather than waiting for everyone... especially if someone is playing a chip or bunker shot... as soon as they have played it means I can putt. Even if they are only on the fringe or in another bunker closer to the green.

You canâ€™t just hit the put with the flag in when you feel like it, you need to advise the players you are doing so, itâ€™s my understanding that if you put with the flag in without telling your playing partners your intentions and you hole the put then you incur a penalty, might be wrong but this was pointed out at a rules meeting with club professionals at a meeting in Edinburgh last week
		
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## Grant85 (Dec 19, 2018)

Iâ€™m not sure about that. 

I think a point was made that if you have the flag tended it has to be removed as it would currently. 

But doesnâ€™t seem sensible that youâ€™d have to announce you are leaving the flag in. Stupid rule to enforce, especially at pro level.


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## Grant85 (Dec 19, 2018)

Canâ€™t see anything about announcing your intentions. 

Rule simply that there is no penalty for putting with the flag in


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## jim8flog (Dec 19, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Why cut extra areas? Thatâ€™s your club creating work for itself!
		
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 see post 101


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			see post 101
		
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I did read that, but surely if all fairway was closer to the pin than were they went oob or lost a ball, the only option  would be 3 off the tee or stroke and distance.
I donâ€™t believe the R&A or USGA would of even considered that rule if they thought Clubs would have to produce areas of fairway height in all circumstances.


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## jim8flog (Dec 20, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I did read that, but surely if all fairway was closer to the pin than were they went oob or lost a ball, the only option  would be 3 off the tee or stroke and distance.
I donâ€™t believe the R&A or USGA would of even considered that rule if they thought Clubs would have to produce areas of fairway height in all circumstances.
		
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As I said in post 101 the view is that it could only be brought in holes where the rule can be met unless the course is modified. We felt very strongly that this would lead to a lot of 'confusion' and probably a lot of abuse by players who do not fully read the rules and to which holes it would apply, to hence our decision not to have the rule anyway. The view was that what players do in swindles and in casual games (re the rules) is not a concern to the club.


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## brfcfan (Dec 20, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			I will pretty much be leaving the flag in on all downhill putts unless it leans excessively towards me.

I can see this causing time delays but those are the new rules and as such I will be using that to my advantage when I can.

I will also be happy if they were to revert this rule back to the way it was.  It time they may do that once there is a year or two of faffing about with flags on the green.
		
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Jacko_G said:



			We had a wee discussion about this today while walking around the links.

It's only days away until some fairly "interesting" changes come into play.

I'm liking the fact that I will be able to tap down and fix spike marks, scrapes and imperfections on the putting surface, I think this rule has been a long time in coming and is a good positive move.

I can live with putting out with the flag stick still in and we did this a few times today and we agreed that it actually probably is quicker doing this. No farting about with tending the flag, "I want it left in" - "I want it tended" - "Can you stand the other side please" it actually works well.

I'm pretty sure the "drop" instead of going back to the tee will be fairly widely abused. Not convinced it's a good rule. Then again if it is designed to speed up play I guess it ultimately will do that.

Only 3 minutes to look for a ball. We have all heard the argument that if the ball isn't found in that timescale then it's unlikely you are going to find it etc etc. I think the biggest problem is ettiquette in this rule, I've played numerous times when you or a member of the group sprays one offline and one of the playing partners always says "I didn't see it". I don't get this.

This 3 minute rule will still be abused as much as the current 5 minutes is at present.

My biggest question and criticism is the double hit. For me that is still a penalty. You have struck your ball twice, it's two shots. We've all done it and hopefully all called it on ourselves. Can't work out why that is not still a penalty.

What "new" rules are you happy with or not so happy with?
		
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Happy with most rules except

1. Not having to declare to playing partners you are lifting and identifying, cheats will prosper with this rule!
2. Still cannot believe you are not allowed a drop from a divot on the fairway!
3. Flag rule does not save time IMO, people with downhill putts will want the flag left in, will only result in more delays and ill feeling IMO


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2018)

I like the new rules

Flag in only thing that concerns me is a blind green. Before you are looking for the flag to be back in before firing at the green just wondering will people assume the green is clear because they can see the flag


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## anotherdouble (Dec 20, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			I like the new rules

Flag in only thing that concerns me is a blind green. Before you are looking for the flag to be back in before firing at the green just wondering will people assume the green is clear because they can see the flag
		
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Thatâ€™s a fair point and the 1st time I have given it any consideration. We have a hole that is a dogleg and driveable going over the top. You can generally see the flag when middle ish to front from the tee through the trees. Those going for it always fire when they can see the flag is vertical


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## huds1475 (Dec 20, 2018)

Interested to know if those claiming leaving flag in won't save time have actually tried it.

We did this last week, informally, and definitely does things up on the green


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2018)

huds1475 said:



			Interested to know if those claiming leaving flag in won't save time have actually tried it.

We did this last week, informally, and definitely does things up on the green
		
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2 of our four ball wanted to do it the â€œold fashioned wayâ€ felt a waste of time

Should have just left the flag in. No need to have someone attend it for each person.. adds least a min every green id say


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## USER1999 (Dec 20, 2018)

Happy to have the flag in from range, but inside 20 ft I would want it out.


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## 6535 (Dec 20, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			2 of our four ball wanted to do it the â€œold fashioned wayâ€ felt a waste of time

Should have just left the flag in. No need to have someone attend it for each person.. adds least a min every green id say
		
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And this is where it will end up with ill feeling towards those who want to do, (as you say but hasnâ€™t officially started yet) the old fashioned way. 
It will end up Iâ€™m not playing with them in the medal as they take the pin out all the time!  
Glad We donâ€™t have blind 2nd shots into greens like you stated earlier! Flags in, are they putting, or have they left the green? Can we go, yeah, ok, balls fired in the air, flag is being taken out, oh shite!!!!!


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## Jacko_G (Dec 20, 2018)

6535 said:



			And this is where it will end up with ill feeling towards those who want to do, (as you say but hasnâ€™t officially started yet) the old fashioned way. 
It will end up Iâ€™m not playing with them in the medal as they take the pin out all the time!  
Glad We donâ€™t have blind 2nd shots into greens like you stated earlier! Flags in, are they putting, or have they left the green? Can we go, yeah, ok, balls fired in the air, flag is being taken out, oh shite!!!!!
		
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And like the Murphy's......


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## 6535 (Dec 20, 2018)

go do something useful like put your head in the toilet and flush it


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## ExRabbit (Dec 21, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			I like the new rules

Flag in only thing that concerns me is a blind green. Before you are looking for the flag to be back in before firing at the green just wondering will people assume the green is clear because they can see the flag
		
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Good point - never thought of that!


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## cookelad (Dec 21, 2018)

I think the lost ball ruling is open to abuse as there's not always a reference point, you carve one deep into the bushes a quick glance and walk to the fairway, why would you want to hit a provisional or find the original? at least with OOB more often than not you've got reasonable crossing point.

I'll be putting with the flag out as pretty much as I have been doing just not having it tended when I can't see the hole at, at least that's the plan!

There was guy at SHGC who had a 5min egg timer in his bag for searches I wonder if he's got himself a new one.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 21, 2018)

6535 said:



			go do something useful like put your head in the toilet and flush it
		
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Oi 6535.........NO !!


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## Jacko_G (Dec 21, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			I like the new rules

Flag in only thing that concerns me is a blind green. Before you are looking for the flag to be back in before firing at the green just wondering will people assume the green is clear because they can see the flag
		
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It's not really any different to what happens now though is it.

You either wait till you you see the people leaving the green, appearing as they head to the next tee, or they shout that the green is clear. Also most blind holes that I have played have a bell to indicate that it's safe to play. 

Failing that you walk forward and look like you also currently do at "blind" shots, even if it was only for an indication as to where the flag is.

No need to wash my hair in the old "boggers" either, just a bit of common sense needs to be applied.

ðŸ‘â›³


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2018)

huds1475 said:



			Interested to know if those claiming leaving flag in won't save time have actually tried it.

We did this last week, informally, and definitely does things up on the green
		
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We have been doing for years over the winter - doesnâ€™t save any time at all


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## richart (Dec 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have been doing for years over the winter - doesnâ€™t save any time at all
		
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Surely if you play ready golf it must do, especially if you are playing a two ball ? Partner chips out of a bunker close to hole, and you are on the green 50 feet away. You can putt up without having to wait for partner to, rake bunker, faff around getting trolley round to right place, get putter out etc. You can even start looking at your watch to put partner under pressure.

If one of my regular partners, or Phil asks for pin to be attended from 50 feet, I will tell him where it can put the pin.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2018)

I think we're planning to trial the flag in/out tomorrow as part of the Christmas roll up. I really think it'll cause more conversations and faffing than the current rules


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## Jacko_G (Dec 21, 2018)

richart said:



			Surely if you play ready golf it must do, especially if you are playing a two ball ? Partner chips out of a bunker close to hole, and you are on the green 50 feet away. You can putt up without having to wait for partner to, rake bunker, faff around getting trolley round to right place, get putter out etc. You can even start looking at your watch to put partner under pressure.

If one of my regular partners, or Phil asks for pin to be attended from 50 feet, I will tell him where it can put the pin.

Click to expand...

This, we noticed we were considerably quicker on the greens playing ready golf leaving the flag in. 

However I accept it will take time for people to get used to it and "want" to play it. That is going to be the biggest hurdle.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 21, 2018)

richart said:



			Surely if you play ready golf it must do, especially if you are playing a two ball ? Partner chips out of a bunker close to hole, and you are on the green 50 feet away. You can putt up without having to wait for partner to, rake bunker, faff around getting trolley round to right place, get putter out etc. You can even start looking at your watch to put partner under pressure.

If one of my regular partners, or Phil asks for pin to be attended from 50 feet, I will tell him where it can put the pin.

Click to expand...

Whilst you will no longer be penalised for hitting the flag, it's still 2 strokes if you hit his ball (in the example you give)...the number of times I've been playing where there was any delay waiting for someone to attend the stick who wasn't also marking their ball is extremely low,  but does happen.
Then again it's more common to have someone mark a putt within a foot - and then go through a move the marker cycle (both ways obviously)
Yes, there will be times when it is useful and saves time, but only time will tell whether it ends up saving time overall (and all the references to impromptu trials in knockabouts dont really have relevance in that context). 

I really hope it's a win win situation; I'm sure there will be plenty of posts if it isn't ðŸ¤”


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## 2blue (Dec 24, 2018)

richart said:



			Surely if you play ready golf it must do, especially if you are playing a two ball ? Partner chips out of a bunker close to hole, and you are on the green 50 feet away. You can putt up without having to wait for partner to, rake bunker, faff around getting trolley round to right place, get putter out etc. You can even start looking at your watch to put partner under pressure.

If one of my regular partners, or Phil asks for pin to be attended from 50 feet, I will tell him where it can put the pin.

Click to expand...

Correct...  with ready golf & pin in, it's much, much quicker as well as being far more fluid always around. It means you can encourage inept playing partners to take their bag/trolley around to the green exit without them feeling they're holding you up on the green.


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## Homer (Dec 24, 2018)

The best player in a 4-ball will always walk the furthest.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 24, 2018)

Its maybe time that I actually had a look to see what the rule changes are....

Not been bothered to read anything as yet but like any previous change it is what it is.

 Guaranteed the average member will be oblivious to most of them when they come in as they don't have a clue about the majority of the existing rules.


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## Canary Kid (Dec 27, 2018)

I like the fact that us hackers can deal with a lost ball by dropping one and taking two penalty shots, rather than going back and retaking the shot with a one shot penalty.  But they didnâ€™t address what I see as an anomaly; a ball lost in water is a one shot penalty, whereas a ball lost in the rough is a two shot penalty ... both are equally lost and both result from a wayward shot.  Whatâ€™s the difference?  However, on balance, I like the changes.


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## jim8flog (Dec 27, 2018)

Canary Kid said:



			I like the fact that us hackers can deal with a lost ball by dropping one and taking two penalty shots, rather than going back and retaking the shot with a one shot penalty. .
		
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Only if there is a local rule which allows it and judging by this forum there are very few clubs that are going to have the local rule.


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## rulefan (Dec 27, 2018)

Canary Kid said:



			I like the fact that us hackers can deal with a lost ball by dropping one and taking two penalty shots, rather than going back and retaking the shot with a one shot penalty.  But they didnâ€™t address what I see as an anomaly; a ball lost in water is a one shot penalty, whereas a ball lost in the rough is a two shot penalty ... both are equally lost and both result from a wayward shot.  Whatâ€™s the difference?  However, on balance, I like the changes.
		
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The main difference is where you may take relief. Two stokes could buy you a nicer position.


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## Canary Kid (Dec 28, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Only if there is a local rule which allows it and judging by this forum there are very few clubs that are going to have the local rule.
		
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Not sure yet what our club is doing for comps, but my friends and I will certainly use it to speed up social games.


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## chrisd (Dec 28, 2018)

Canary Kid said:



			Not sure yet what our club is doing for comps, but my friends and I will certainly use it to speed up social games.
		
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Your club can't use it in comps otherwise they will not be qualifying under Congu rules, nor will supplementary cards.


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## Canary Kid (Dec 28, 2018)

OK ... thanks for that.  Thatâ€™s interesting.  The R and A specifically stated that â€œThe Local Rule is not intended for higher levels of play, such as professional or elite level competitionsâ€.  Given that our seniors competitions are far from elite ðŸ˜‚, canâ€™t the local rule be used?  As I say, Iâ€™m not yet aware what my club is doing on this.


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## Imurg (Dec 28, 2018)

CONGU have come out against it so as far as qualifiers go it can't be used.
But in a non qualifier there's no reason your "group" can't use it.
Gimmes are a regular diversion from "proper" rules in social golf groups.


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## bobmac (Dec 28, 2018)

Imurg said:



			CONGU have come out against it so as far as qualifiers go it can't be used.
		
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So CONGU are over-ruling the R&A


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## Imurg (Dec 28, 2018)

Well, R&A don't have much to do with handicapping, they're more interested in the actual rules whereas the administration of handicaps is more a thing for CONGU.
So if CONGU decided, for instance, that they weren't happy with the flag being left in for putting I'm guessing they could do the same thing and prevent handicaps being decided by its use.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 28, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Well, R&A don't have much to do with handicapping, they're more interested in the actual rules whereas the administration of handicaps is more a thing for CONGU.
So if CONGU decided, for instance, that they weren't happy with the flag being left in for putting I'm guessing they could do the same thing and prevent handicaps being decided by its use.
		
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I donâ€™t think CONGU can, the difference with the oob/lost ball rule, is that itâ€™s an optional local rule.
The flagstick left in choice is a Rule of Golf.


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## Imurg (Dec 28, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t think CONGU can, the difference with the oob/lost ball rule, is that itâ€™s an optional local rule.
The flagstick left in choice is a Rule of Golf.
		
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Good point and that'll be CONGU's get out clause....


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## Canary Kid (Dec 28, 2018)

The R & A stated that the option of a local rule was introduced to address pace of play issues, which seems a laudable aim.  However, if CONGU has taken steps to prevent its use, then an initiative designed to speed up play has been thwarted.  Seems a pity ... particularly when the R & A specified that it couldnâ€™t be used at professional or elite level; i.e. it was considered appropriate at lower levels.  A missed opportunity.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 28, 2018)

Canary Kid said:



			The R & A stated that the option of a local rule was introduced to address pace of play issues, which seems a laudable aim.  However, if CONGU has taken steps to prevent its use, then an initiative designed to speed up play has been thwarted.  Seems a pity ... particularly when the R & A specified that it couldnâ€™t be used at professional or elite level; i.e. it was considered appropriate at lower levels.  A missed opportunity.
		
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The R and A haven't specified that couldn't be used at elite level at all.


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## bobmac (Dec 28, 2018)

Canary Kid said:



			The R & A stated that the option of a local rule was introduced to address pace of play issues, which seems a laudable aim.  However, if CONGU has taken steps to prevent its use, then an initiative designed to speed up play has been thwarted.  Seems a pity ... particularly when the R & A specified that it couldnâ€™t be used at professional or elite level; i.e. it was considered appropriate at lower levels.  A missed opportunity.
		
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Exactly.
Congu placing themselves above the R&A when it comes to telling us what we can and can't do in comps


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## bobmac (Dec 28, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			The R and A haven't specified that couldn't be used at elite level at all.
		
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Well, it does say
''The Local Rule is not intended for higher levels of play, such as professional or elite level competitions.''


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## Imurg (Dec 28, 2018)

When the WHS comes in and the rest of the world uses this local rule, will CONGU ( or whoever is in charge) have to agree to have it available?
It would be strange if there are, effectively, 2 sets of handicapping rules when the idea is to get everyone under the same umbrella.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 28, 2018)

Imurg said:



			When the WHS comes in and the rest of the world uses this local rule, will CONGU ( or whoever is in charge) have to agree to have it available?
It would be strange if there are, effectively, 2 sets of handicapping rules when the idea is to get everyone under the same umbrella.
		
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This question was asked at an England Golf rules seminar I attended.
England Golf stated CONGU were monitoring their decision over the next 12 months and will then review it.


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## jim8flog (Dec 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So CONGU are over-ruling the R&A
		
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Nothing is new.  There are other available local rules which I understand if implemented will make a competition non qualifying
 e.g.
lift and cleaning the ball in the rough


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## duncan mackie (Dec 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Well, it does say
''The Local Rule is not intended for higher levels of play, such as professional or elite level competitions.''
		
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Indeed - but there's nothing to stop any organising committee from implementing it.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 28, 2018)

Imurg said:



			When the WHS comes in and the rest of the world uses this local rule, will CONGU ( or whoever is in charge) have to agree to have it available?
It would be strange if there are, effectively, 2 sets of handicapping rules when the idea is to get everyone under the same umbrella.
		
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Nope. In the same way as CONGU have set rules for the scores to count that are not reflected in other areas. There will be more than 2 versions of those as well.
The key points are that the principle elements and calculation routines are a constant - all the other bits relate purely to the integrity of the output handicap index (which because it's statistically based anyway will have inherent deviation elements.


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## Dasit (Dec 30, 2018)

What is going to happen with flag tending?

I don't really like doing it atm as usually I would rather be looking at my putt than having to stand by a flag.


Now it doesn't matter if the ball hits the flag, I assume flag tending won't happen anymore?


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## trevor (Dec 30, 2018)

Not sure on this one either, is it a case of the flag being in or the flag being out? What do you say if someone says they want it tended?


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## Imurg (Dec 30, 2018)

Dasit said:



			What is going to happen with flag tending?

I don't really like doing it atm as usually I would rather be looking at my putt than having to stand by a flag.


Now it doesn't matter if the ball hits the flag, I assume flag tending won't happen anymore?
		
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Rules on flag tending haven't changed. You can still have it tended but, as before, it must come out of the hole. Penalty still applicable for hitting flag...


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## Jacko_G (Dec 30, 2018)

trevor said:



			Not sure on this one either, is it a case of the flag being in or the flag being out? What do you say if someone says they want it tended?
		
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With you on that. I won't be tending any flag, the 3rd person in my group can do it if they like but I'll be saying sorry you can have it in or out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			With you on that. I won't be tending any flag, the 3rd person in my group can do it if they like but I'll be saying sorry you can have it in or out.
		
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Sorry but you canâ€™t give players the choice of in or out if the rules allow the player to have the flag tended - what will you do in a Matchplay scenario when the player wants it tended ? You canâ€™t just say no when he is entitled for it to be tended

I donâ€™t like the flag in the hole so itâ€™s out or from a distance itâ€™s attended and we have been doing the flag in over winter for years now


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## Dasit (Dec 30, 2018)

Still confused about flag tending.

Is there a rule saying you have to do it if asked? If there is no rule then you can just say no, it is either in or out


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 30, 2018)

Dasit said:



			Still confused about flag tending.

Is there a rule saying you have to do it if asked? If there is no rule then you can just say no, it is either in or out
		
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Itâ€™s covered under ettiquette, so no you donâ€™t have to attend if asked, but Iâ€™d suggest the company wouldnâ€™t be up for much if you refused.
Why would you attend it today and not on tuesday, the flag in or out is the choice of the person playing the shot, another choice they have is to ask you to attend it.
Youâ€™ve always had the choice to refuse.


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2018)

I assume that the rule makers would never think anyone would be such a (pick your own adjective) as to refuse a request to tend the flag when asked.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 30, 2018)

Hence why I said I won't be doing it. In or out is a perfectly valid and reasonable choice.

Let's get golf sub 3 hours.

ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘â±ï¸


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## williamalex1 (Dec 30, 2018)

If someone plays using all the old rules come 2019, how many of the new rules could they possibly break and be penalised for ? .


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## Crow (Dec 30, 2018)

If some demented, scheming arch-villain had wanted to cause as much confusion as possible in the game of golf then they couldn't have done a much better job than the 2019 revisions and poor communication of the same.


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## Homer (Dec 30, 2018)

Crow said:



			If some demented, scheming arch-villain had wanted to cause as much confusion as possible in the game of golf then they couldn't have done a much better job than the 2019 revisions and poor communication of the same.
		
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Really - I think they make much more sense when put all together?


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## Crow (Dec 30, 2018)

Homer said:



			Really - I think they make much more sense when put all together?
		
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Just count the number of threads and posts asking for clarification on the various changes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 30, 2018)

Crow said:



			Just count the number of threads and posts asking for clarification on the various changes.
		
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Iâ€™d turn that around and say thatâ€™s a positive, changes coming in, more have got involved and at least attempted to become more aware of the rules. In our Club for example a lot of rule myths and historical (made up) local rules have been exposed and challenged.


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## Homer (Dec 30, 2018)

The Rules of Golf sadly do not account for the general incompetence of golfers.  

Read them and you might find you learn something.  Most golfers donâ€™t understand the current Rules so i donâ€™t think the changes will make much different to their understanding unless they make some attempt to look at them.


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## Beezerk (Dec 30, 2018)

Crow said:



			Just count the number of threads and posts asking for clarification on the various changes.
		
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My club has an evening planned early next year billed as a â€œnew rules nightâ€.
Hopefully weâ€™ll get a decent turnout.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 30, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			My club has an evening planned early next year billed as a â€œnew rules nightâ€.
Hopefully weâ€™ll get a decent turnout.
		
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I suggested this at my club and was shot down in flames on our club page .


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Hence why I said I won't be doing it. In or out is a perfectly valid and reasonable choice.

Let's get golf sub 3 hours.

ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘â±ï¸
		
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So, where the rules allow 3 choices, you are so important at your club as to be able to restrict that choice to only 2. I bet that you struggle to find playing partners when 2019 gets underway if you refuse their, quite reasonable, request to attend the flag.


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2018)

Has anyone ever refused a request to tend a flag......?
Ever?


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## Wolf (Dec 31, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Has anyone ever refused a request to tend a flag......?
Ever?
		
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I'd doubt No decent person has ever refused such a request.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

chrisd said:



			So, where the rules allow 3 choices, you are so important at your club as to be able to restrict that choice to only 2. I bet that you struggle to find playing partners when 2019 gets underway if you refuse their, quite reasonable, request to attend the flag.
		
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It's not a rule.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			It's not a rule.
		
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Itâ€™s covered in Rule 17 where is says that a player â€œmay have the flag attended â€œ

https://www.randa.org/rules-of-golf...rules/1-flagstick-attended-removed-or-held-up

Itâ€™s also covered in Etiquette- refusing to tend the flag is classed as poor etiquette as well - this should help refresh 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-and-unwritten-etiquette-of-the-flagstick/amp

Now if you refuse to attend the flag there is of course no rule break on your part but you have denied the player something he is entitled to in the rules and would just smack as poor etiquette- now is sure itâ€™s prob another bravado on the Internet because I suspect you would have good etiquette


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			It's not a rule.
		
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So today you'll attend the flag for me, tomorrow you won't, you wouldn't get a game at my place next weekend would be my guess


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## trevor (Dec 31, 2018)

What would be the advantage for a long putt of having the flag tended to just leaving it in? I thought flags were tended when people couldnt see the hole properly and were there just on the chance that it might go in.


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## shortgame (Dec 31, 2018)

trevor said:



			What would be the advantage for a long putt of having the flag tended to just leaving it in? I thought flags were tended when people couldnt see the hole properly and were there just on the chance that it might go in.
		
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Your playing partner or caddy might stand with their feet strategically placed to give you the line


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2018)

trevor said:



			What would be the advantage for a long putt of having the flag tended to just leaving it in? I thought flags were tended when people couldnt see the hole properly and were there just on the chance that it might go in.
		
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If the putt is travelling a little too fast, hitting full centre on the flag may 'kill' the speed and the ball drops in, or it might take enough sting out of it that it stops nearer the hole than if there was no flag. There is a stat about leaving a flag in when chipping for this very reason.

For me, it takes some of the skill out of getting the pace right.

It takes seconds to attend the flag, and it isn't needed on every hole. For me it dumbs down the game for the sake of the argument of speeding play up.


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## cliveb (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Let's get golf sub 3 hours.
		
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No - that would be a disaster!
I would finish my round and the bar wouldn't have opened yet.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 31, 2018)

I am interested to see what transpires when these rules are implemented, but I am not upset or really anti any of the new ones: neither would I have been campaigning for a change from the old ones either. Well, maybe one of them !
I wonder how many would really be upset by the new rules if, just imagining, the new rules had always been the rules for the past 40 years?

I have got the most opinion about the lost ball rule. I suspect those who most wish to retain it are mostly youngish low handicappers. ðŸ˜€
As one who has played several years in Seniors competitions, I think this new rule will be a blessing. Not many of the ones I played with and against were interested in going back to the tee or where last played.Thus stablefords were popular. Persons who insisted on letter of the law compliance soon got a "fusspot" reputation etc, and , frankly, some cheating did go on. All born out of the ( understandable) reluctance to walk all the way back.
( and before the speed readers descend on this post, I am not saying that the cheating is understandable!)
I know that provisional balls should have been played- but the fact is, they are not always, or even mostly, played -and so the dilemma for 70 year old "knackered Jack" is sometimes all too real.
Perhaps some clubs will opt for the new lost ball rule for Seniors only?
Whatever, I hope their implementation or otherwise will not cause acrimony.

Happy New Year to all!


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am interested to see what transpires when these rules are implemented, but I am not upset or really anti any of the new ones: neither would I have been campaigning for a change from the old ones either. Well, maybe one of them !
I wonder how many would really be upset by the new rules if, just imagining, the new rules had always been the rules for the past 40 years?

I have got the most opinion about the lost ball rule. I suspect those who most wish to retain it are mostly youngish low handicappers. ðŸ˜€
As one who has played several years in Seniors competitions, I think this new rule will be a blessing. Not many of the ones I played with and against were interested in going back to the tee or where last played.Thus stablefords were popular. Persons who insisted on letter of the law compliance soon got a "fusspot" reputation etc, and , frankly, some cheating did go on. All born out of the ( understandable) reluctance to walk all the way back.
( and before the speed readers descend on this post, I am not saying that the cheating is understandable!)
I know that provisional balls should have been played- but the fact is, they are not always, or even mostly, played -and so the dilemma for 70 year old "knackered Jack" is sometimes all too real.
Perhaps some clubs will opt for the new lost ball rule for Seniors only?
Whatever, I hope their implementation or otherwise will not cause acrimony.

Happy New Year to all!
		
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I can see your point and I'm assuming that you are referring to casual games and not qualifying competitions?


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## richart (Dec 31, 2018)

chrisd said:



			So, where the rules allow 3 choices, you are so important at your club as to be able to restrict that choice to only 2. I bet that you struggle to find playing partners when 2019 gets underway if you refuse their, quite reasonable, request to attend the flag.
		
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Surely currently you only want the flag attended when you can't see the hole with out it ? With new rules you can now leave the flag in so problem solved. Why would you want flag attended ?

I imagine from long distance you have more chance of holing or stopping close to the pin with the flag in. I would not be best pleased if someone kept asking me to attend the flag, which just seems to be wasting time. Instead of attending I could be lining up my putt, and ready to go when my turn. Just to let everyone know if I was playing a friendly game and someone asked me to attend the flag, I would tell them where they can put said flag.

I very rarely have flag attended, as not keen on having someone standing in my line of sight, so new rules are perfect for me.


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## Homer (Dec 31, 2018)

Lost ball in casual games = forget that hole and just walk straight to the next tee.


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2018)

Homer said:



			Lost ball in casual games = forget that hole and just walk straight to the next tee.
		
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Unless of course you get shot on the hole, or 2  or 3


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## Homer (Dec 31, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Unless of course you get shot on the hole, or 2  or 3  

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Even more annoying when you do!  Sods law in full effect usually!!!


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## IanM (Dec 31, 2018)

I am against a couple of blokes in our usual roll up group not knowing anything about the new rules at all... Next formal comp is going to be funny!  Talking in the bar at the weekend it appears practice swings touching the sand are now allowed and if you go OB, play 3 from where it crossed!


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

richart said:



			Surely currently you only want the flag attended when you can't see the hole with out it ? With new rules you can now leave the flag in so problem solved. Why would you want flag attended ?

I imagine from long distance you have more chance of holing or stopping close to the pin with the flag in. I would not be best pleased if someone kept asking me to attend the flag, which just seems to be wasting time. Instead of attending I could be lining up my putt, and ready to go when my turn. Just to let everyone know if I was playing a friendly game and someone asked me to attend the flag, I would tell them where they can put said flag.

I very rarely have flag attended, as not keen on having someone standing in my line of sight, so new rules are perfect for me.

Click to expand...

The simple answer is, if for whatever reason, a player wants the flag attended then he is entitled to request his PP's to do that for him, he doesn't really have to give a reason and I suspect a refusal will offend and, to be honest, I would personally just get on and do it rather than upset people. I guess, also, a bounce game and a competition will possibly be treated differently 

 I do understand that technically it better to leave the flag in for a speedy downhill putt but to remove it for a slow up hill one where a player us likely to hit the ball with more pace


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## richart (Dec 31, 2018)

chrisd said:



			The simple answer is, if for whatever reason, a player wants the flag attended then he is entitled to request his PP's to do that for him, he doesn't really have to give a reason and I suspect a refusal will offend and, to be honest, I would personally just get on and do it rather than upset people. I guess, also, a bounce game and a competition will possibly be treated differently

I do understand that technically it better to leave the flag in for a speedy downhill putt but to remove it for a slow up hill one where a player us likely to hit the ball with more pace
		
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I have seen you putt Chris, and surely from long range you are just trying to get the putt dead. You are making someone attend the flag from long distance on the very unlikely chance you hit a good putt.

I reckon I will hole one putt a year from 40 foot plus a year, so a lot of wasted attending.


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## Grant85 (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			With you on that. I won't be tending any flag, the 3rd person in my group can do it if they like but I'll be saying sorry you can have it in or out.
		
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I donâ€™t plan on having the flag tended, but if I am playing into the wind then thereâ€™s a good chance that a putt dead centre wonâ€™t drop due to the lean of the flag.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

richart said:



			I have seen you putt Chris, and surely from long range you are just trying to get the putt dead. You are making someone attend the flag from long distance on the very unlikely chance you hit a good putt.

I reckon I will hole one putt a year from 40 foot plus a year, so a lot of wasted attending.

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I reckon a 40ft putt for me us almost a gimme but lets not discuss 3 foot ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

All these bed wetters are really unbelievable. There is no rule that says you must tend the flag, with the removal of the penalty for hitting the flag there is no reason to even have it tended. 

Just leave it in and putt until you're within range of seeing the hole unaided.

The amount of times I've tended the flag for people who can't even get their first putt within 10 feet of the hole is crazy, to suggest not tending the flag is disrespectful or not in the spirit of the game is nonsense. 

Flag is in, putt to it. 

Easy and quicker.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			I donâ€™t plan on having the flag tended, but if I am playing into the wind then thereâ€™s a good chance that a putt dead centre wonâ€™t drop due to the lean of the flag.
		
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Metal flag poles and metal holes where I play. Also when it's very windy the green keeper "clips" the flag therefore we don't get any hole movement or "flag lean".


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## backwoodsman (Dec 31, 2018)

I can't see myself wanting a flag attended as of tomorrow, but I dare say some others might. If they ask, then to me it would be courteous to do it.

Should someone flatly refuse to do it, then I think they' be wise not to put any balls in the rough -  as they are likely to be refused the reciprocal courtesy of help in looking for them. 

After all, club golf at least, is supposed to be a social game.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

backwoodsman said:



			I can't see myself wanting a flag attended as of tomorrow, but I dare say some others might. If they ask, then to me it would be courteous to do it.

Should someone flatly refuse to do it, then I think they' be wise not to put any balls in the rough -  as they are likely to be refused the reciprocal courtesy of help in looking for them. 

After all, club golf at least, is supposed to be a social game.
		
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Social and sub three hours. 100% with you on not ever needing the flag tended. Hopefully once the professional tours start kicking off and we start seeing Tiger and Jordan, Fleetwood etc all putting from 30 feet with the flag in we'll see a shift in attitude.

Let's get motoring. ðŸ‘


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

richart said:



			Surely currently you only want the flag attended when you can't see the hole with out it ? With new rules you can now leave the flag in so problem solved. Why would you want flag attended ?

I imagine from long distance you have more chance of holing or stopping close to the pin with the flag in. I would not be best pleased if someone kept asking me to attend the flag, which just seems to be wasting time. Instead of attending I could be lining up my putt, and ready to go when my turn. Just to let everyone know if I was playing a friendly game and someone asked me to attend the flag, I would tell them where they can put said flag.

I very rarely have flag attended, as not keen on having someone standing in my line of sight, so new rules are perfect for me.

Click to expand...

I don't think some people have actually thought their replies through and due to their dislike of my posts or through their dinosaur attitude can't see an improvement in the rules when its smacking them in the face. Very reasoned post Richart.


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2018)

We played tomorrow's rules today, mainly leaving the flag in.
Speed-wise I'm not sure it saved much time but I do know that I found it easier putting with the flag in.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			I don't think some people have actually thought their replies through and due to their dislike of my posts or through their dinosaur attitude can't see an improvement in the rules when its smacking them in the face. Very reasoned post Richart.
		
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I agree that it's an improvement in the rules and will often putt with the flag in, BUT, tending the flag is still an available option and I will always try to observe the etiquette of the game if requested to do so by a pp and would expect the same in return.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I agree that it's an improvement in the rules and will often putt with the flag in, BUT, tending the flag is still an available option and I will always try to observe the etiquette of the game if requested to do so by a pp and would expect the same in return.
		
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Shame there is no need to do it or "any point" in doing it anymore. 

There are bigger breaches of etiquette on the greens such as people not repairing plug marks, standing on your line of play etc etc.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 31, 2018)

What about in a match play game one player wants the flag attended maybe because his eyesight is not 100% / superstition or any other reason.
But his OP refuses .
Thereâ€™s a stalemate if nobody budges.
The player has the right to have it attended if that is what HE wants.

Just for the rule gurus if nobody relents what happens?
Could the committee be asked to rule on this if said match was abandoned because nobody would relent?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			All these bed wetters are really unbelievable. There is no rule that says you must tend the flag, with the removal of the penalty for hitting the flag there is no reason to even have it tended.

Just leave it in and putt until you're within range of seeing the hole unaided.

The amount of times I've tended the flag for people who can't even get their first putt within 10 feet of the hole is crazy, to suggest not tending the flag is disrespectful or not in the spirit of the game is nonsense.

Flag is in, putt to it.

Easy and quicker.
		
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When the flag - for whatever reason - maybe just very strong wind blowing it to the side - is not sitting centre of the hole and if I have a longer putt then I will want it attended and ask a player partner or opponent to do that.  If an opponent refused to attend a flag I would be very tempted to report that behaviour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2018)

richart said:



			Surely currently you only want the flag attended when you can't see the hole with out it ? With new rules you can now leave the flag in so problem solved. Why would you want flag attended ?

I imagine from long distance you have more chance of holing or stopping close to the pin with the flag in. I would not be best pleased if someone kept asking me to attend the flag, which just seems to be wasting time. Instead of attending I could be lining up my putt, and ready to go when my turn. Just to let everyone know if I was playing a friendly game and someone asked me to attend the flag, I would tell them where they can put said flag.

I very rarely have flag attended, as not keen on having someone standing in my line of sight, so new rules are perfect for me.

Click to expand...

We as a club have been playing flag in or out for social golf as part of our winter rules for the last 10 years or so , I have seen plenty times a ball hit the flag and not go in where as I believe it would have dropped with the flag out - it has also added nothing to the speed of play if anything added to the time with people wanting it out then in then out etc.  I also believe it take a touch of skill away

I will always prefer to have the flag out to ensure the hole is empty when the ball reaches it so Iâ€™ll ask for it to tended on long putts

Rule 17 allows a player to have the flag tended and itâ€™s also good etiquette imo to tend a flag for someone. It doesnâ€™t cause undue delay on the game


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Shame there is no need to do it or "any point" in doing it anymore.

There are bigger breaches of etiquette on the greens such as people not repairing plug marks, standing on your line of play etc etc.
		
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For some players there is still the need to have a flag tended 

Itâ€™s all etiquette though and itâ€™s all things you would expect players to do - if they donâ€™t tend a flag for you then I expect people would think twice about helping you search for a ball etc


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			When the flag - for whatever reason - maybe just very strong wind blowing it to the side - is not sitting centre of the hole and if I have a longer putt then I will want it attended and ask a player partner or opponent to do that.  If an opponent refused to attend a flag I would be very tempted to report that behaviour.
		
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I'd just laugh. Genuinely not being flippant but I would laugh if a grown man told me he was going to "report me". 

May I suggest that you email your secretary and suggest metal flag poles.


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## KenL (Dec 31, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about in a match play game one player wants the flag attended maybe because his eyesight is not 100% / superstition or any other reason.
But his OP refuses .
Thereâ€™s a stalemate if nobody budges.
The player has the right to have it attended if that is what HE wants.

Just for the rule gurus if nobody relents what happens?
Could the committee be asked to rule on this if said match was abandoned because nobody would relent?
		
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Refusing to attend could be seen as a gross breach of etiquette leading to a DQ?


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Shame there is no need to do it or "any point" in doing it anymore. 

There are bigger breaches of etiquette on the greens such as people not repairing plug marks, standing on your line of play etc etc.
		
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As it doesn't come in your top 10 of breaches of etiquette you wont observe the etiquette or, as many will, just accommodate your playing partners wishes. I know what I shall do as my game of golf doesn't include upsetting those who I play with intentionally.

 I'd happily agree to "no attending the flag" in bounce games but I would never in qualifiers. I disagree with the "no need to do it" or "any point" as it's the players choice whether there's a need, or point to it, when putting, it's their putt so its their decision


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## KenL (Dec 31, 2018)

Would anyone refusing to attend the pin also refuse to remove it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			I don't think some people have actually thought their replies through and due to their dislike of my posts or through their dinosaur attitude can't see an improvement in the rules when its smacking them in the face. Very reasoned post Richart.
		
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I donâ€™t think itâ€™s anything to do with you personally or having a dinosaur attitude, if Iâ€™m on the golf course for 2-4hrs with someone and they ask me to attend the flag for them Iâ€™d do it out of common courtesy.
Iâ€™m sure you/we can come up with scenarios about reading your line or getting ready to play etc, but thereâ€™s also the scenario were I maybe close to the hole and on their line, so attending the flag for them wouldnâ€™t be an issue.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

KenL said:



			Would anyone refusing to attend the pin also refuse to remove it?
		
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No. 

Happy to remove it if anyone would wish it removed. That is in the spirit of the game.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

chrisd said:



			As it doesn't come in your top 10 of breaches of etiquette you wont observe the etiquette or, as many will, just accommodate your playing partners wishes. I know what I shall do as my game of golf doesn't include upsetting those who I play with intentionally.

I'd happily agree to "no attending the flag" in bounce games but I would never in qualifiers. I disagree with the "no need to do it" or "any point" as it's the players choice whether there's a need, or point to it, when putting, it's their putt so its their decision
		
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We shall agree to disagree, as it'll end up going round and circles, I'll then be accused of spamming or trolling or whatever and the thread will run and run or be locked. 

Have a fantastic New Year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			No.

Happy to remove it if anyone would wish it removed. That is in the spirit of the game.
		
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Would tending the flag not be within the spirit of the game then ? Helping out a fellow player ?


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would tending the flag not be within the spirit of the game then ? Helping out a fellow player ?
		
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See my last post on the subject. 

You also have a fantastic New Year.


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t think itâ€™s anything to do with you personally or having a dinosaur attitude, if Iâ€™m on the golf course for 2-4hrs with someone and they ask me to attend the flag for them Iâ€™d do it out of common courtesy.
Iâ€™m sure you/we can come up with scenarios about reading your line or getting ready to play etc, but thereâ€™s also the scenario were I maybe close to the hole and on their line, so attending the flag for them wouldnâ€™t be an issue.
		
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TBH Pau, I think heâ€™s on one of his fishing trips again. Looks like heâ€™s caught a few


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			See my last post on the subject.

You also have a fantastic New Year. 

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You too Craw ðŸ‘ good golfing and happy new year


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## KenL (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			No.

Happy to remove it if anyone would wish it removed. That is in the spirit of the game.
		
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As is attending it if that's what they wish.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 31, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			TBH Pau, I think heâ€™s on one of his fishing trips again. Looks like heâ€™s caught a few

Click to expand...

Played yesterday and had quite a good discussion on this in our 4Ball, my opinion was actually quite close to his tbh, the reason I took the stance was because one of the 4Ball is a Cat 1 in his 30â€™s (No Dinasour ) who insisted that on long putts he would want the flag attended as thatâ€™s how he prefers it.
Heâ€™s worried about the ball being deflected and was not willing to risk the ball deflecting away etc.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			TBH Pau, I think heâ€™s on one of his fishing trips again. Looks like heâ€™s caught a few

Click to expand...

You can


pauldj42 said:



			Played yesterday and had quite a good discussion on this in our 4Ball, my opinion was actually quite close to his tbh, the reason I took the stance was because one of the 4Ball is a Cat 1 in his 30â€™s (No Dinasour ) who insisted that on long putts he would want the flag attended as thatâ€™s how he prefers it.
Heâ€™s worried about the ball being deflected and was not willing to risk the ball deflecting away etc.
		
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Cat 1 or not he/she (can't be sexist) will 999/1000 not even hit the hole from 30 feet never mind the flag stick so tell him/her to like it or leave it. Ridiculous to want to waste everyone's time tending a flag from distance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			You can


Cat 1 or not he/she (can't be sexist) will 999/1000 not even hit the hole from 30 feet never mind the flag stick so tell him/her to like it or leave it. Ridiculous to want to waste everyone's time tending a flag from distance.
		
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Iâ€™ll attend the flag if people want it attended. Iâ€™m not that bothered as any changes take differing times to settle in with people.
What I did say to him (playing devilâ€™s advocate) was, if thatâ€™s the way he wants to be the other people playing along side should putt out first and make him wait to save time going backwards and forwards.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			We shall agree to disagree, as it'll end up going round and circles, I'll then be accused of spamming or trolling or whatever and the thread will run and run or be locked. 

Have a fantastic New Year.
		
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I certainly wouldn't say that on this matter but happy to agree to disagree 

Happy New year to you too


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## 6535 (Dec 31, 2018)

I find it ridiculous that someone would refuse to tend the pin for a player who so wishes for it to happen.  The game is played with not only your own integrity but integrity towards others and if a player is that obstinate to refuse to tend (because the rules have said their will be no penalty if your ball hits the pin whilst on the green, doesnâ€™t mean that the pin must remain in the hole) is inconsiderate to a fellow players wish is just sheer arrogance in my eyes.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

It's almost as ridiculous that someone would be so obstinate to expect someone else to tend the flag just because they want it tended when in reality they won't get their ball within 3 feet.

Let's move with the times and stop being inconsiderate to my wishes not to bother tending the pin. Arrogance in my eyes to expect me to respect someone else's wishes and they won't respect mine.

â›³


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## 6535 (Dec 31, 2018)

Tending the flag has been part of the game for many a year and still will be so I donâ€™t see why that is ridiculous. But someone whose admitted who will point blank refuse to tend a flag for a fellow player is not part of the game or the etiquette of the game.


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## robinthehood (Dec 31, 2018)

6535 said:



			Tending the flag has been part of the game for many a year and still will be so I donâ€™t see why that is ridiculous. But someone whose admitted who will point blank refuse to tend a flag for a fellow player is not part of the game or the etiquette of the game.
		
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It is part of the game and I think if someone asks to have the flag attended i'll do it, but will point out its not needed any more as you can now putt with the flag in. i for one wont be asking for it to be attended anymore, its seems pretty pointless, but like a lot a lot of things in golf some will stick to thier guns no matter how flawed their argument is.


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## richart (Dec 31, 2018)

Surely the new rules are to make the game simpler and quicker.

Having an extra option of leaving the flag makes the game more complicated. Perhaps it was introduced to make the game faster, and assumed that golfers wouldnâ€™t think they needed the pin attended from long distance. Personally I canâ€™t remember the last time I holed a putt with the flag attended. I therefore wouldnâ€™t trouble a playing partner with attending the flag.

If someone wants the pin attended get a caddie as you obviously take the game very seriously.


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## robinthehood (Dec 31, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would tending the flag not be within the spirit of the game then ? Helping out a fellow player ?
		
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The penalty for hitting it has been removed, making flag tending pointless.


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## Grant85 (Dec 31, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about in a match play game one player wants the flag attended maybe because his eyesight is not 100% / superstition or any other reason.
But his OP refuses .
Thereâ€™s a stalemate if nobody budges.
The player has the right to have it attended if that is what HE wants.

Just for the rule gurus if nobody relents what happens?
Could the committee be asked to rule on this if said match was abandoned because nobody would relent?
		
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My guess is there would be no rules breach. You are entitled to have the flag attended, but Iâ€™d be surprised if the rules stipulate your opponent is legally obliged to be the attendant.

I would hope that a club would look upon a refusal of any reasonable request quite dimly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			The penalty for hitting it has been removed, making flag tending pointless.
		
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As a club that has been playing with the flags in or out over winter I have seen many times a ball hit the flag and bounce away when I have no doubt it would have dropped into the hole had the flag been out  so on the odd occasion I am a fair distance from the hole I will ask for it to be tended as Iâ€™m entitled to in the rules. If someone refuses then i would believe they have a lack of etiquette.

I have also noticed the whole out or in has added nothing to the pace of play and in fact at times increased the pace with people wanting various things out or in etc 

Tending the flag is not really a hardship at the end of the day


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## richart (Dec 31, 2018)

Can someone explain to me why you would want the pin attended. Pretty sure the ball has more chance of falling in from long range with pin in, but perhaps I have missed something.


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## Grant85 (Dec 31, 2018)

richart said:



			Surely the new rules are to make the game simpler and quicker.

Having an extra option of leaving the flag makes the game more complicated. Perhaps it was introduced to make the game faster, and assumed that golfers wouldnâ€™t think they needed the pin attended from long distance. Personally I canâ€™t remember the last time I holed a putt with the flag attended. I therefore wouldnâ€™t trouble a playing partner with attending the flag.

If someone wants the pin attended get a caddie as you obviously take the game very seriously.

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Iâ€™d wait and see. If everyone is happy at least making longer putts with the flag in, then it should speed things up noticeably.

Really allow â€˜ready Golfâ€™ to work. As how often is someone on the green and a PP in a bunker. Bunkered player splashes out but is still furthest away or just off the green. Everyone has to wait for him to rake the bunker, clean his club or select a new club etc etc.

Thereâ€™s def a culture thing regarding ready golf and people still look across the fairway to check if they are furthest before playing. Baby steps.


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tending the flag is not really a hardship at the end of the day
		
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But it does increase footfall around the hole, ok at a distance of a metre or two but it's still extra feet in the area.
The only time I can see a reason to have the flag tended is when there's a stiff breeze bending the flagstick towards you.
Hit it then and you've got virtually no chance of holing.
Tending in that scenario could increase your chances.


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## robinthehood (Dec 31, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As a club that has been playing with the flags in or out over winter I have seen many times a ball hit the flag and bounce away when I have no doubt it would have dropped into the hole had the flag been out  so on the odd occasion I am a fair distance from the hole I will ask for it to be tended as Iâ€™m entitled to in the rules. If someone refuses then i would believe they have a lack of etiquette.

I have also noticed the whole out or in has added nothing to the pace of play and in fact at times increased the pace with people wanting various things out or in etc

Tending the flag is not really a hardship at the end of the day
		
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You are correct, just seems pointless now, as the reason to do it was so you dont get a penalty on the off chance you hit the pin.


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## richart (Dec 31, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As a club that has been playing with the flags in or out over winter I have seen many times a ball hit the flag and bounce away when I have no doubt it would have dropped into the hole had the flag been out  so on the odd occasion I am a fair distance from the hole I will ask for it to be tended as Iâ€™m entitled to in the rules. If someone refuses then i would believe they have a lack of etiquette.

I have also noticed the whole out or in has added nothing to the pace of play and in fact at times increased the pace with people wanting various things out or in etc

Tending the flag is not really a hardship at the end of the day
		
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We have played ready golf with pin in last few rounds, and for us it is quicker Phil. Problem is those not play it in front holding up those trying to play quicker. 

Personally think putt hitting pin and bouncing off would probably be hit too hard to full in anyway. Would be interesting if tests were done to prove one way or another. Think they have done figures for chipping around the green, and more fall in with flag in.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2018)

richart said:



			We have played ready golf with pin in last few rounds, and for us it is quicker Phil. Problem is those not play it in front holding up those trying to play quicker. 

Personally think putt hitting pin and bouncing off would probably be hit too hard to full in anyway. Would be interesting if tests were done to prove one way or another. Think they have done figures for chipping around the green, and more fall in with flag in.
		
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I agree we have been a good bit quicker on and around the greens playing it.

Probably takes about 20 minutes off per round when all players are "switched on" and ready to play.


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## patricks148 (Dec 31, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			I agree we have been a good bit quicker on and around the greens playing it.

Probably takes about 20 minutes off per round when all players are "switched on" and ready to play.
		
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we have been playing with the flag in the last few weeks , def saves time on big greens.


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## rulefan (Dec 31, 2018)

richart said:



			Personally think putt hitting pin and bouncing off would probably be hit too hard to full in anyway. Would be interesting if tests were done to prove one way or another. Think they have done figures for chipping around the green, and more fall in with flag in.
		
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They certainly finish closer to the hole if they hit the flagstick.


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## Wolf (Jan 1, 2019)

So today we played with new rules, ready golf, flagstick in (nobody once asked for it to be attended), dropping a ball that went OOB instead of 3 off the tee etc.. The round took 5hours, the reason being the group in front a 3 ball refusing to acknowledge us allow us through despite us asking or acknowledge the rule changes.

Not once did they play ready golf they would literally all wait to take their turn furthest away from the hole etc, nearly every put was attended in one case everyone in the group attended the flag whilst we stood in the fairway watching and waiting, on the 18th Tee we stood watching them search for a ball my PP timed them at 8mins it was so bad we ended up with the group behind us on the tee waiting with us..

After the round we were approached by 2 of them telling us we have clearly no idea of golfing etiquette playing out of turn, putting with the flag in and trying to force them along.. Did my best not to explode and politely pointed out we played to the new rules that take effect xt today and how long they searched for a ball, only to be told by them we pay a lot of money for our balls we will search as long as it takes and the new rules are stupid and not befitting the game so they chose to ignore them.. I walked off to get some fresh air whilst my PP had further words..

Overall new rules great helped us out today and easier to understand sad thing is other golfers have to be willing to accept change.. Fortunately the club are have posted all new rules up but people need to adhere to them


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## User2021 (Jan 1, 2019)

Think as wolf adheres to above, getting everyone to abide by the new rules will take some time


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## bobmac (Jan 1, 2019)

Next time just remind them of the old rule that a slow group should allow a faster group through.


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## Imurg (Jan 1, 2019)

Absolutely.
Those who play to the new rules are going to find themselves waiting a lot.
It'll be years before a decent %age of players know them...


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## robinthehood (Jan 1, 2019)

Just read this thread.  Despite the reason for having the flag tended no longer there. Some are still insisting they will have Some one waste time doing it.


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## robinthehood (Jan 1, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Absolutely.
Those who play to the new rules are going to find themselves waiting a lot.
It'll be years before a decent %age of players know them...
		
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Good luck . Most don't know the old ones as it is.


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## Wolf (Jan 1, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Next time just remind them of the old rule that a slow group should allow a faster group through.
		
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We did remind them Bob only to be told they didn't want to as felt we were rushing them so thought we should learn to wait...


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## upsidedown (Jan 1, 2019)

Wolf said:



			We did remind them Bob only to be told they didn't want to as felt we were rushing them so thought we should learn to wait...
		
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They sound like a right happy bunch, they needed reporting.


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## Wolf (Jan 1, 2019)

upsidedown said:



			They sound like a right happy bunch, they needed reporting.
		
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It's just  been done before we left to go our seperate ways. Always hated the thought of having to report people and never done it before but we had to after today.. 

Still I liked the new rules and will try them again tomorrow


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## AmandaJR (Jan 1, 2019)

Had to drop a couple of times today - the knee height thing feels weird and not a little awkward, although the end result is more control over where it ends up.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just read this thread.  Despite the reason for having the flag tended no longer there. Some are still insisting they will have Some one waste time doing it.
		
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Itâ€™s not a waste of time!
My mate only has one eye his right , he is right handed so his peripheral vision is not good .
He needs the flag attending on most putts except shortish ones.
But he is not happy that he needs to explain to people that donâ€™t know him when they question him over it.
Itâ€™s up to the player putting to choose how he wants the flag no matter what anyone else thinks.
If any player wants the flag attended then thatâ€™s what I will do.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s not a waste of time!
My mate only has one eye his right , he is right handed so his peripheral vision is not good .
He needs the flag attending on most putts except shortish ones.
But he is not happy that he needs to explain to people that donâ€™t know him when they question him over it.
Itâ€™s up to the player putting to choose how he wants the flag no matter what anyone else thinks.
If any player wants the flag attended then thatâ€™s what I will do.
		
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Look at the hole when putting and leave the flag in.

ðŸ‘


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Look at the hole when putting and leave the flag in.

ðŸ‘
		
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Why should he .?
Why should anyone change their habits just because they have been given another choice?
Thatâ€™s all the rule change is â€œanother choiceâ€


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## robinthehood (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Why should he .?
Why should anyone change their habits just because they have been given another choice?
Thatâ€™s all the rule change is â€œanother choiceâ€
		
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One extreme example doesn't invalidate my point. In the main making someone walk 90feet up the green to tend the flag when it's not needed is a waste of time.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Why should he .?
Why should anyone change their habits just because they have been given another choice?
Thatâ€™s all the rule change is â€œanother choiceâ€
		
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Putting is about feel not sight plus if his eyes are over the ball why does he need the flag tended?


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## Wolf (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s not a waste of time!
My mate only has one eye his right , he is right handed so his peripheral vision is not good .
He needs the flag attending on most putts except shortish ones.
But he is not happy that he needs to explain to people that donâ€™t know him when they question him over it.
Itâ€™s up to the player putting to choose how he wants the flag no matter what anyone else thinks.
If any player wants the flag attended then thatâ€™s what I will do.
		
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I'm a little confused by this and why having it attended is better for him than simply leaving it in. 

If he is over a put and has his right eye on the ball, his left side will be facing the target line so regardless of tended or not he won't be able to see it in his peripheral vision anyway. So surely just leaving it in saves him having to explain things and makes it easier all round. Unless I'm missing something here


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## duncan mackie (Jan 1, 2019)

richart said:



			Can someone explain to me why you would want the pin attended. Pretty sure the ball has more chance of falling in from long range with pin in, but perhaps I have missed something.

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The real factual fully tested answer to your question will be answered by around June through observation of the Tour.

If There is even 0.1% increased chance of holing the putt they will all be putting with the flag left in!

Having studied the research often quoted around this area I find that whilst it's it's conclusions are fair for it's methodology (as you would expect!) it's methodology isn't appropriate to the question being asked. Put simply, if you significantly over hit a putt it has more chance of being holed  if the flag is left in - doesn't relate across to the more normal range of putts at Tour level.

Time will tell (definitively)


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## garyinderry (Jan 1, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			The real factual fully tested answer to your question will be answered by around June through observation of the Tour.

If There is even 0.1% increased chance of holing the putt they will all be putting with the flag left in!

Having studied the research often quoted around this area I find that whilst it's it's conclusions are fair for it's methodology (as you would expect!) it's methodology isn't appropriate to the question being asked. Put simply, if you significantly over hit a putt it has more chance of being holed  if the flag is left in - doesn't relate across to the more normal range of putts at Tour level.

Time will tell (definitively)
		
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Why wait till June.   if the pro's are going to jump on board then surely it will happen at The Masters.


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## Homer (Jan 1, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Why wait till June.   if the pro's are going to jump on board then surely it will happen at The Masters. 

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Or the next tournament in January maybe?


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## garyinderry (Jan 1, 2019)

Homer said:



			Or the next tournament in January maybe?
		
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This is true. Will make for fascinating viewing although I do feel that golf as we knew it has changed forever.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 1, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Why wait till June.   if the pro's are going to jump on board then surely it will happen at The Masters. 

Click to expand...

I was simply giving what I perceive as a necessary period for statistical relevance to be established. Not wedded to the date - simply suggesting that by about then established behaviour (feeling/preference etc) will be replaced by cold hard statistics; and the best tour pros will react to those.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 1, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			This is true. Will make for fascinating viewing although I do feel that golf as we knew it has changed forever.
		
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Well at least until the rules change ðŸ¤”


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I'm a little confused by this and why having it attended is better for him than simply leaving it in. 

If he is over a put and has his right eye on the ball, his left side will be facing the target line so regardless of tended or not he won't be able to see it in his peripheral vision anyway. So surely just leaving it in saves him having to explain things and makes it easier all round. Unless I'm missing something here
		
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This is a example but at the end of the day itâ€™s up to him!
It dosnt matter if others think itâ€™s a waste of time. Itâ€™s his choice and only his.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Putting is about feel not sight plus if his eyes are over the ball why does he need the flag tended?
		
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You good in the dark then.?
Because thatâ€™s what HE wants!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is a example but at the end of the day itâ€™s up to him!
It dosnt matter if others think itâ€™s a waste of time. Itâ€™s his choice and only his.
		
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Agree it is a choice and a choice for people to refuse to tend it since the removal of the penalty.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I was simply giving what I perceive as a necessary period for statistical relevance to be established. Not wedded to the date - simply suggesting that by about then established behaviour (feeling/preference etc) will be replaced by cold hard statistics; and the best tour pros will react to those.
		
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If any golfers first couple of putts go in they will leave the flag in.
But if the ball stays out I canâ€™t see said player leaving it in.
Golf is a game of confidence and very fickle.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Agree it is a choice and a choice for people to refuse to tend it since the removal of the penalty.
		
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Well good luck with your choices.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Agree it is a choice and a choice for people to refuse to tend it since the removal of the penalty.
		
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What would you say if people refused to help you search for your ball or didnâ€™t bother watching where your ball went or stood where you didnâ€™t want them too or walked over you line etc - all cases of poor etiquette and being disrespectful to your playing partners , I donâ€™t see any reason why someone would refuse to tend a flag for someone beyond being that type of personality? 

The flag in or out is not really a massive deal - we have been doing it for years , it doesnâ€™t really speed up play to any extreme 

A person is allowed to have to flag in or out or tended - I would expect everyone to respect any players wishes on the green I would expect anyone to respect people throughout the round


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

It's my responsibility to know where my ball goes not my playing partners.

Bottom line is there is no requirement to tend the flag anymore therefore why insist on it? There is no purpose, point or advantage to it.

Just putt to the flag and get on with it, when you get to within a certain distance that you want it out take it out - or better still just leave it in.

Can't wait for my first competition of the year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			It's my responsibility to know where my ball goes not my playing partners.

Bottom line is there is no requirement to tend the flag anymore therefore why insist on it? There is no purpose, point or advantage to it.

Just putt to the flag and get on with it, when you get to within a certain distance that you want it out take it out - or better still just leave it in.

Can't wait for my first competition of the year.
		
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If a player wants the flag tended then itâ€™s not up to you to decide if it has no purpose , itâ€™s not your choice , the rules allow someone the choice of all three options and as fellow golfers I would expect other golfers to respect any one of the choices regardless of your own personal feeling

Itâ€™s called etiquette and itâ€™s a fabric of our game - if a player believes he requires the flag to be tended as is his right then the only course of action it to carry out his wishes - anything other will be poor etiquette.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			It's my responsibility to know where my ball goes not my playing partners.

Bottom line is there is no requirement to tend the flag anymore therefore why insist on it? There is no purpose, point or advantage to it.

Just putt to the flag and get on with it, when you get to within a certain distance that you want it out take it out - or better still just leave it in.

Can't wait for my first competition of the year.
		
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Thereâ€™s never been a requirement as far as I know , itâ€™s just etiquette if someone asks.

So you hit your tee shot into a low sun, look at your pps and they were not looking where your ball went = very long round and lost balls.


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## garyinderry (Jan 1, 2019)

The flag can lie towards the player.  Tending the flag is advisable in this situation.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thereâ€™s never been a requirement as far as I know , itâ€™s just etiquette if someone asks.

So you hit your tee shot into a low sun, look at your pps and they were not looking where your ball went = very long round and lost balls.
		
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It's also ettiquette to keep moving along without undue delay. Farting about with a flag stick just adds delay. 

Can I cite everyone who farts about with a flag stick instead of putting when ready as having poor ettiquette?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			It's also ettiquette to keep moving along without undue delay. Farting about with a flag stick just adds delay.

Can I cite everyone who farts about with a flag stick instead of putting when ready as having poor ettiquette?
		
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Going round in circles here guys.

The forum consensus seems to support the notion that it is the choice of each player whether to leave the flag in, out or attended.

If a player asks for an attend and you refuse, whilst not in the rules, it would be a major breach of etiquette, possibly reportable in a match.

Why donâ€™t you try it and then tell us how you got on?


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Going round in circles here guys.

The forum consensus seems to support the notion that it is the choice of each player whether to leave the flag in, out or attended.

If a player asks for an attend and you refuse, whilst not in the rules, it would be a major breach of etiquette, possibly reportable in a match.

Why donâ€™t you try it and then tell us how you got on?
		
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Love how I am the one accused of taking it round in circles. Shock horror.


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## richart (Jan 1, 2019)

Surely tending the flag was originally to avoid a penalty if you hit the pin with your putt ? Now no penalty canâ€™t see the point unless in exceptional circumstances. Such as the flag being blown against the side of the hole.

In normal circumstances if someone asked me to attended when they are say 40 plus feet away, I would think they are taking the proverbial.Just because you can ask why would you ? I have no problem taking the flag awayfor someone before they putt, but faffing around attending the pin while someone tries to lag a putt close.

Imagine playing at St Andrews and someone 50 yards away on the green asked you to attend. I would tell them to get stuffed, or words to the equivalent. I know who I think has got a case of bad etiquette.

Try using the new rules as they are intended to be played and everyone might be pleasantly surprised how simple the game is, and how much quicker you can play.


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## richart (Jan 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Love how I am the one accused of taking it round in circles. Shock horror.
		
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Donâ€™t worry I will be joining you.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

richart said:



			Surely tending the flag was originally to avoid a penalty if you hit the pin with your putt ? Now no penalty canâ€™t see the point unless in exceptional circumstances. Such as the flag being blown against the side of the hole.

In normal circumstances if someone asked me to attended when they are say 40 plus feet away, I would think they are taking the proverbial.Just because you can ask why would you ? I have no problem taking the flag awayfor someone before they putt, but faffing around attending the pin while someone tries to lag a putt close.

Imagine playing at St Andrews and someone 50 yards away on the green asked you to attend. I would tell them to get stuffed, or words to the equivalent. I know who I think has got a case of bad etiquette.

Try using the new rules as they are intended to be played and everyone might be pleasantly surprised how simple the game is, and how much quicker you can play.

Click to expand...


Careful. we're going round in circles.


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## Wolf (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is a example but at the end of the day itâ€™s up to him!
It dosnt matter if others think itâ€™s a waste of time. Itâ€™s his choice and only his.
		
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I know its an example and is up to him, I've never once said it's a waste of time either,  nor have I said I wouldn't tend it if requested to of course I would as it courteous to those that chose it, my point with your example was that it doesn't make sense to me based on his left side (blind side for want of a better term) would be hole side anyway so by tending the flag its not gaining anything to aid him seeing it in his peripheral vision.

Not arguing he should or shouldn't have it tended I just didn't see how this one made sense for the argument of doing so. If I were playing with him or anyone that wants it tended I'd do it. However my preference will be to play with it left in as I don't see the point of having it tended when your lagging up to the hole.


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## Imurg (Jan 1, 2019)

I genuinely think that by the end of the year the flag will be staying in the hole  all day every day for everyone.
Except when the greenkeepers are cutting the grass.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2019)

Imurg said:



			I genuinely think that by the end of the year the flag will be staying in the hole  all day every day for everyone.
Except when the greenkeepers are cutting the grass.
		
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Not what we see during the winter when we have been doing it - most have the flag out


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 1, 2019)

Imurg said:



			I genuinely think that by the end of the year the flag will be staying in the hole  all day every day for everyone.
Except when the greenkeepers are cutting the grass.
		
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Not sure I agree. I think golfers will start off with the flag in but once they hit it and the putt stays out they'll revert back to flag out. I think once golfers see a few staying out they'll have it out as well. We are creatures of habit


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## robinthehood (Jan 1, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not sure I agree. I think golfers will start off with the flag in but once they hit it and the putt stays out they'll revert back to flag out. I think once golfers see a few staying out they'll have it out as well. We are creatures of habit
		
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Long putts flag in 100% not tended .  I'll probably have it out for ones I have a good chance of holing as previous experience of putting with the flag in has shown some will stay out with the pin in.


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## chimpo1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Just catching up with this thread, 
16 pages of discussion over whether or not we should leave the flag in and who should tend it.
Come on guys, I know we are all golf fanatics but isnâ€™t this taking it too far?


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## cliveb (Jan 1, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not sure I agree. I think golfers will start off with the flag in but once they hit it and the putt stays out they'll revert back to flag out. I think once golfers see a few staying out they'll have it out as well. We are creatures of habit
		
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Played today for the first time under the new rules and all I can say is that putting from less than about 10 feet with the flag in just feels really weird. So for the time being the flag is coming out. Maybe after a while things will change.

Oh - and the couple of times I had to take a drop, found myself absent-mindedly dropping from shoulder height. I wonder how long that's going to last?


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## 6535 (Jan 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If a player wants the flag tended then itâ€™s not up to you to decide if it has no purpose , itâ€™s not your choice , the rules allow someone the choice of all three options and as fellow golfers I would expect other golfers to respect any one of the choices regardless of your own personal feeling

Itâ€™s called etiquette and itâ€™s a fabric of our game - if a player believes he requires the flag to be tended as is his right then the only course of action it to carry out his wishes - anything other will be poor etiquette.
		
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Not often we agree  on issues but I'm with you on this.  Just shows poor etiquette to tell a fellow player to bog off with his request , next he'll be saying bunkers are hazards why fart around raking them and just get on with it, so I can play in 2hrs 30min...... how far do you take it?


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## 6535 (Jan 1, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Going round in circles here guys.

The forum consensus seems to support the notion that it is the choice of each player whether to leave the flag in, out or attended.

If a player asks for an attend and you refuse, whilst not in the rules, it would be a major breach of etiquette, possibly reportable in a match.

Why donâ€™t you try it and then tell us how you got on?
		
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I think it's the attitude of showing a lack of respect to a fellow players (whether he's Cat 1 (being elitist) Cat 2, 3 or 4) request that's in question? 

I still stand by what I said earlier in this thread Mr Fragger.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I know its an example and is up to him, I've never once said it's a waste of time either,  nor have I said I wouldn't tend it if requested to of course I would as it courteous to those that chose it, my point with your example was that it doesn't make sense to me based on his left side (blind side for want of a better term) would be hole side anyway so by tending the flag its not gaining anything to aid him seeing it in his peripheral vision.

Not arguing he should or shouldn't have it tended I just didn't see how this one made sense for the argument of doing so. If I were playing with him or anyone that wants it tended I'd do it. However my preference will be to play with it left in as I don't see the point of having it tended when your lagging up to the hole.
		
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I did say â€œif othersâ€ wasnâ€™t accusing you.
Itâ€™s a confidence thing with him itâ€™s easier to see the flag in the green.
If he was 50yds away he wouldnâ€™t ask .


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

chimpo1 said:



			Just catching up with this thread, 
16 pages of discussion over whether or not we should leave the flag in and who should tend it.
Come on guys, I know we are all golf fanatics but isnâ€™t this taking it too far?
		
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Obviously not as we still disagree.
Thatâ€™s golf.


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## ExRabbit (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Agree it is a choice and a choice for people to refuse to tend it since the removal of the penalty.
		
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In this thread I saw that I would never want to play a round of golf with you. You are either trolling the thread or just an inconsiderate person in general it seems.


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## bobmac (Jan 2, 2019)

We used to and still can get round 18 holes in 3 - 3 1/2 hours while tending the flag when requested and playing in order.
So, putting with the flag in and ready golf isn't the answer to all of golfs' problems.

In my opinion, any time that may be saved by not having the flag tended would be lost waiting for the player to tap down every blemish on the green.
And playing in order, especially in match play, can be a great tactical advantage.

Stopping people from having a 5 minute pre-shot routine on every shot would be a better solution to the 5 hour round. In my opinion.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

ExRabbit said:



			In this thread I saw that I would never want to play a round of golf with you. You are either trolling the thread or just an inconsiderate person in general it seems.
		
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Oh no, I'd better change my attitude/point of view as I've offended someone on the internet. Won't change my stance though, absolutely no requirement to tend a flag ever again. 

Can you see the flag? 

Therefore putt to it. Pretty simple

"Excuse me I'm 45 feet away can you tend that flag as I can't see the hole with the flag out please?"

"Can you see the flag ok?

"Yes"

"Well putt to the flag as the hole isn't going to move anywhere, the distance isn't going to change nor is the line."

Meanwhile once my PP is putting to the flag I've repaired my pitch mark and lined up my putt ready to play. Simply because people have farted about with flags for X amount of years doesn't mean we have to keep doing it, especially when the reason for doing it has been removed.

I think I've now made my stance crystal clear as have others however the "anti craw" group only like to to be offended by me.


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## Wolf (Jan 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I did say â€œif othersâ€ wasnâ€™t accusing you.
Itâ€™s a confidence thing with him itâ€™s easier to see the flag in the green.
If he was 50yds away he wouldnâ€™t ask .
		
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Totally get its a confidence thing and why he had it tended in the past, but now he can leave the flag in surely that's more beneficial and would require no need for it to be tended. 



ExRabbit said:



			In this thread I saw that I would never want to play a round of golf with you. You are either trolling the thread or just an inconsiderate person in general it seems.
		
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Perhaps in some earlier posts in the thread Jacko could have worded it better or less bluntly to stop people assuming the trolling  or inconsiderate nature of his point, I often don't agree with what he posts but in this case I am actually with him on this, the fact he hasn't backed down doesn't make him a troll or inconsiderate in this case it merely means he believes in his stance and why should he change it just because others wish to stick to doing something that really is no longer required and actually now have a better option. 



Jacko_G said:



			Oh no, I'd better change my attitude/point of view as I've offended someone on the internet. Won't change my stance though, absolutely no requirement to tend a flag ever again.

Can you see the flag?

Therefore putt to it. Pretty simple

"Excuse me I'm 45 feet away can you tend that flag as I can't see the hole with the flag out please?"

"Can you see the flag ok?

"Yes"

"Well putt to the flag as the hole isn't going to move anywhere, the distance isn't going to change nor is the line."

*Meanwhile once my PP is putting to the flag I've repaired my pitch mark and lined up my putt ready to play. Simply because people have farted about with flags for X amount of years doesn't mean we have to keep doing it, especially when the reason for doing it has been removed.*

I think I've now made my stance crystal clear as have others however the "anti craw" group only like to to be offended by me.
		
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That bit right there in bold is why I agree with this standpoint,  instead of walking all the way up the green to tend the flag thus delaying getting ready for your own shot and doing the necessary housekeeping around the green is what will help keep things moving. 

And for those that mentioned playing in turn in matchplay is required to gain strategical advantage, the R&A ruling on ready golf agrees with you and states ready golf is not appropriate for matchplay, so nothing changes there, the excert below lifted directly from their website. 




			â€œReady golfâ€ is not appropriate in match play due to the strategy involved between opponents and the need to have a set method for determining which player plays first.
		
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## bobmac (Jan 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			And for those that mentioned playing in turn in matchplay is required to gain strategical advantage, the R&A ruling on ready golf agrees with you and states ready golf is not appropriate for matchplay, so nothing changes there, the excert below lifted directly from their website.
		
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I know but there will still be people who will try it on.


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2019)

Seems some are expecting to save lots of time with the new flag rule.....I think you're going to be disappointed.
There's plenty of time to be saved in other areas of the game.
If the flag rule saves you 5 minutes a round I'll be staggered.


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## Wolf (Jan 2, 2019)

bobmac said:



			I know but there will still be people who will try it on.
		
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I don't disagree with you at all Bob, there will be plenty that try to gain advantage wherever they can.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Totally get its a confidence thing and why he had it tended in the past, but now he can leave the flag in surely that's more beneficial and would require no need for it to be tended. 



Perhaps in some earlier posts in the thread Jacko could have worded it better or less bluntly to stop people assuming the trolling  or inconsiderate nature of his point, I often don't agree with what he posts but in this case I am actually with him on this, the fact he hasn't backed down doesn't make him a troll or inconsiderate in this case it merely means he believes in his stance and why should he change it just because others wish to stick to doing something that really is no longer required and actually now have a better option. 



That bit right there in bold is why I agree with this standpoint,  instead of walking all the way up the green to tend the flag thus delaying getting ready for your own shot and doing the necessary housekeeping around the green is what will help keep things moving. 

And for those that mentioned playing in turn in matchplay is required to gain strategical advantage, the R&A ruling on ready golf agrees with you and states ready golf is not appropriate for matchplay, so nothing changes there, the excert below lifted directly from their website.
		
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Having a better option is only your opinion.
Flag out is my preferred option.
If someone chooses to have it tended thatâ€™s their option.
None is wrong , itâ€™s a choice available thatâ€™s all I am saying.

But if someone refused my request he would be playing the rest of the round without me.


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## Wolf (Jan 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Having a better option is only your opinion.
Flag out is my preferred option.
If someone chooses to have it tended thatâ€™s their option.
None is wrong , itâ€™s a choice available thatâ€™s all I am saying.

But if someone refused my request he would be playing the rest of the round without me.
		
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Agreed it is my opinion and also agree neither is wrong. 

Not trying be pedantic but if he was marking your card in a comp would that mean you're then going to NR and not finish the round. I'm only asking as I think it's going to be intriguing how it pans out over the year ahead with a whole change in attitudes towards it, that's not to single you out as merely replying to your comment as I think there'll be many with a similar mindset. 

I'm happy to tend the flag my preference would be not to but I certainly won't refuse a request or fall out with anyone over it.


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## IanM (Jan 2, 2019)

Our club sent out a brief note on New Years Eve, with a few R&A links (of the internet kind!) and 2 statements to say that yellow stakes all replaced with red, and then listing the penalty areas on the course...

And confirming that the Club is not implementing the new "alternative to stroke and distance" ruling.  It then says, "members can se this rule amongst themselves!"  (I took that to mean NOT in comps.... but I bet some don't take it like that!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Seems some are expecting to save lots of time with the new flag rule.....I think you're going to be disappointed.
There's plenty of time to be saved in other areas of the game.
If the flag rule saves you 5 minutes a round I'll be staggered.
		
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Just shows how pathetic we've all become. It saves at least a minute per green. No debate about who is further away, nobody having to "tend" the flag while the other player(s) putt then having to walk back to your ball, line it up, take your practice strokes/go through your routine then putt. 

Coupled with only 3 minutes to look for a ball I'm looking forward to 4 hour rounds becoming 3.5. only ignorant idiots who ignore the new rules/ready golf/ etc will continue to keep the pace as it is.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 2, 2019)

My irony meter just went to defcon 5 ðŸ¤”


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Just shows how pathetic we've all become. It saves at least a minute per green. No debate about who is further away, nobody having to "tend" the flag while the other player(s) putt then having to walk back to your ball, line it up, take your practice strokes/go through your routine then putt.

Coupled with only 3 minutes to look for a ball I'm looking forward to 4 hour rounds becoming 3.5. only ignorant idiots who ignore the new rules/ready golf/ etc will continue to keep the pace as it is.
		
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Unfortunately there are enough ignorant idiots who ignore the 'old rules' meaning those golfers who want to get round the course in a reasonable time are going to be sorely disappointed IMO.

Too manu people on the course who are either unaware of others, no idea of etiquette, or I will will take as long as I want and sod the rest of the course behind me.

Probably be okay during quiet periods on the course but forget it at weekends and during comps.

I would like the tours to start having a zero policy for slow play, hand out shot or two shot penalites left right and centre to speed up the game and watch it impact positively into the amateur game.

unlikely to happen however.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

saving_par said:



			Unfortunately there are enough ignorant idiots who ignore the 'old rules' meaning those golfers who want to get round the course in a reasonable time are going to be sorely disappointed IMO.

Too manu people on the course who are either unaware of others, no idea of etiquette, or I will will take as long as I want and sod the rest of the course behind me.

Probably be okay during quiet periods on the course but forget it at weekends and during comps.

I would like the tours to start having a zero policy for slow play, hand out shot or two shot penalites left right and centre to speed up the game and watch it impact positively into the amateur game.

unlikely to happen however.
		
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Exactly but even if those "ignorant" ones adopted ready play, putt to the flag without the undue delay of the "tending" process then the game has to get quicker as a result. 

I do agree though that initially there will be very little change but I'm hopeful that Tiger etc will change attitudes over time by putting to the flag. 

Even the simple fact of less footfall round the flag should be a benefit to the field and the green keeper. A 15 Stone person standing on a damp green for 30/40 seconds minimum on the same spot is going to leave an indentation and stress on the grass. Then someone has to putt over it.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Exactly but even if those "ignorant" ones adopted ready play, putt to the flag without the undue delay of the "tending" process then the game has to get quicker as a result.

I do agree though that initially there will be very little change but I'm hopeful that Tiger etc will change attitudes over time by putting to the flag.

Even the simple fact of less footfall round the flag should be a benefit to the field and the green keeper. A 15 Stone person standing on a damp green for 30/40 seconds minimum on the same spot is going to leave an indentation and stress on the grass. Then someone has to putt over it.
		
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I think your last point is the one with most benefit. 

Quick players will still be quick, slow players still won't be ready to play whatever we do and they are the ones who dictate the speed of play for the rest of the course.

We had a group up from some college down Lancashire way the other week. The seniors out playing their midweek comp behind them all walked in as they were on for a 5.5 hour round. This was despite the pro going out 3 times on a buggy to give them a kick up the backside.

I don't think the new rules would have helped in this case....


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

saving_par said:



			I think your last point is the one with most benefit. 

Quick players will still be quick, slow players still won't be ready to play whatever we do and they are the ones who dictate the speed of play for the rest of the course.

We had a group up from some college down Lancashire way the other week. The seniors out playing their midweek comp behind them all walked in as they were on for a 5.5 hour round. This was despite the pro going out 3 times on a buggy to give them a kick up the backside.

I don't think the new rules would have helped in this case....
		
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The new breed of golfing superstar. Teach them to play slowly and be inconsiderate. 

Yip seen them on the course myself. Top of the range trolley, tour bag and blades.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			The new breed of golfing superstar. Teach them to play slowly and be inconsiderate.

Yip seen them on the course myself. Top of the range trolley, tour bag and blades.
		
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No idea how we are going to manage to speed them up.

All these youtube coaches don't help stressing the need for a consistant pre shot routine.

What I can never understand is how slow people walk to their balls. Every week I play in the comp I'm usually the longest off the tee yet I am always ready to play before the others have even pulled a club.

I'm not in a rush to get round either just wanting to play at a reasonable speed. I think speeding up would benefit most golfers since concentrating for such a long time is beyond most amateurs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			The new breed of golfing superstar. Teach them to play slowly and be inconsiderate.

Yip seen them on the course myself. Top of the range trolley, tour bag and blades.
		
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My FiL plays at a 9 hole links course. It drains brilliantly and the greenkeeper has the greens in a superb state so last year the county started using it for their elite practice sessions on a Saturday through the winter. They have just started again and he sees them going out as he comes in. 'Wonderful to see the ball striking but unbearable to them inbetween' ' On the greens they are unbearable'. I agree, slow play is being ingrained into them and it starts at the very top and it seeps down.


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## DRW (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Coupled with only 3 minutes to look for a ball I'm looking forward to 4 hour rounds becoming 3.5. only ignorant idiots who ignore the new rules/ready golf/ etc will continue to keep the pace as it is.
		
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Assuming you are talking about 4 ball golf, do you really ever seeing 18 holes dropping to 3.5 hours on a normal course at a normal time of day. Would love to think it could myself but just don't see it.

As example by mum could not even play as a 4 ball within 3.5 hour, as she can not walk fast enough in between shots to do it within 3.5 hours (age catches up with everyone sooner or later). Also as another example not played many times in comps or golf days when 4 hours is the normal tbh, I would be happy if all rounds were 4 hours.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 2, 2019)

Craw I think you will get a shock if you expect the times for the round to come down that much 

First things - ready golf - why are people talking as if this is a new thing , itâ€™s been around for year and people have been playing it for a while now , I expect most clubs like we did accepted it as the preferred method of play a few years 

Flag in or out or tended - as I have said we as a club have been having flag in or out other the winter from 1st October for about 10 years - made no difference to the time taken on each green none at all and thatâ€™s even when people arenâ€™t allowed to tended ( non Q comps only ) 

The only smallest differences will be the search time and even then its not going to be a big difference overall - I still expect our social rounds at around 4 hours for 4ball and Comp around 4 hours for 3 ball


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Craw I think you will get a shock if you expect the times for the round to come down that much 

First things - ready golf - why are people talking as if this is a new thing , itâ€™s been around for year and people have been playing it for a while now , I expect most clubs like we did accepted it as the preferred method of play a few years 

Flag in or out or tended - as I have said we as a club have been having flag in or out other the winter from 1st October for about 10 years - made no difference to the time taken on each green none at all and thatâ€™s even when people arenâ€™t allowed to tended ( non Q comps only ) 

The only smallest differences will be the search time and even then its not going to be a big difference overall - I still expect our social rounds at around 4 hours for 4ball and Comp around 4 hours for 3 ball
		
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Very few people I know play ready golf in medal conditions. Some still like the honour in the tee etc. Only ready golf I've experienced myself in medal competitions is when someone elects to lay up as they can't get to the green.

Your quite clearly not playing the flag in rule to it's full potential as all evidence points to being quicker with it being left in. Ready to putt go.

I shall attempt (probably won't manage to though ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚) to take a back seat on this topic now. 

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. Unless someone comes up with something revolutionary I don't think I can add anything else or offer an alternative opinion/view that I haven't already aired.

ðŸ‘â›³


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Very few people I know play ready golf in medal conditions. Some still like the honour in the tee etc. Only ready golf I've experienced myself in medal competitions is when someone elects to lay up as they can't get to the green.

Your quite clearly not playing the flag in rule to it's full potential as all evidence points to being quicker with it being left in. Ready to putt go.

I shall attempt (probably won't manage to though ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚) to take a back seat on this topic now.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. Unless someone comes up with something revolutionary I don't think I can add anything else or offer an alternative opinion/view that I haven't already aired.

ðŸ‘â›³
		
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Craw we have been playing the flag in for over a decade - itâ€™s added nothing , thatâ€™s ten years worth of evidence

And ready golf has been around for years it was always as an advisory- the wheel isnâ€™t being reinvented here with things that are suddenly new. 

I have no problems with playing at a nice pace but Iâ€™m not interested in speed golf to get round as quick as possible , and there tens of thousands of golfers that canâ€™t rush around a golf course and will still take their time. Things arenâ€™t going to change to any drastic levels


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Agreed it is my opinion and also agree neither is wrong. 

Not trying be pedantic but if he was marking your card in a comp would that mean you're then going to NR and not finish the round. I'm only asking as I think it's going to be intriguing how it pans out over the year ahead with a whole change in attitudes towards it, that's not to single you out as merely replying to your comment as I think there'll be many with a similar mindset. 

I'm happy to tend the flag my preference would be not to but I certainly won't refuse a request or fall out with anyone over it.
		
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Me to I go to enjoy my golf .
It would depend on the circumstances as I canâ€™t see three pps all refusing to tend a reasonable request.
But in a matchplay singles he would be standing on his own.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Me to I go to enjoy my golf .
It would depend on the circumstances as I canâ€™t see three pps all refusing to tend a reasonable request.
But in a matchplay singles he would be standing on his own.
		
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Easy passage to the next round then. 

Result.

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚â›³


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Craw I think you will get a shock if you expect the times for the round to come down that much 

First things - ready golf - why are people talking as if this is a new thing , itâ€™s been around for year and people have been playing it for a while now , I expect most clubs like we did accepted it as the preferred method of play a few years 

Flag in or out or tended - as I have said we as a club have been having flag in or out other the winter from 1st October for about 10 years - made no difference to the time taken on each green none at all and thatâ€™s even when people arenâ€™t allowed to tended ( non Q comps only ) 

The only smallest differences will be the search time and even then its not going to be a big difference overall - I still   our social rounds at around 4 hours for 4ball and Comp around 4 hours for 3 ball
		
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We play ready golf in social play .
The one big thing I noticed is that one player was always ready to play so we let him but when it came to the par 3s he hung back so he could see the flight of the other players shots/ clubs / landing of the all etc.
I noticed right away what he was doing.
So made him take his honour on par 3s . His face was quite a picture.


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2019)

I played 9 holes today and not once did I have the flag taken out for any length of putt, i reckon alignment and pace is easier to judge with the flag in rather than just seeing the shape of the top of the hole from yards away


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## garyinderry (Jan 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I played 9 holes today and not once did I have the flag taken out for any length of putt, i reckon alignment and pace is easier to judge with the flag in rather than just seeing the shape of the top of the hole from yards away
		
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How many were flung from the hole by that pesky flag?


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			How many were flung from the hole by that pesky flag? 

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None, I had downhill, uphill, long and short putts but none hit the flag pole and come out


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## Wolf (Jan 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Me to I go to enjoy my golf .
It would depend on the circumstances as I canâ€™t see three pps all refusing to tend a reasonable request.
But in a matchplay singles he would be standing on his own.
		
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Wouldn't that be cutting your nose off so to speak. Opportunity to play and win a match that you'd effectively hand to an opponent because of a flag tending debate. The only person that comes out of  that with anything to show for it is the guy that's been handed the win.


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## jim8flog (Jan 2, 2019)

I strongly agree with the point that a lot of this is never going to speed up the slow players.  We have had several instances recently of players recoding 10 plus on their score cards in stableford comps.

Ready Golf has been in force at our club for a very long time now but we still have groups who just will not play it. They all walk to one ball watch the the guy hit, walk to the next ball and so on and still continue to do so despite being spoken to on several occasions.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Wouldn't that be cutting your nose off so to speak. Opportunity to play and win a match that you'd effectively hand to an opponent because of a flag tending debate. The only person that comes out of  that with anything to show for it is the guy that's been handed the win.
		
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I donâ€™t think he would win .
If he refused a reasonable request to tend the flag I would just let the comp committee decide.
The â€œrulesâ€ on tending the flag hasnâ€™t changed itâ€™s just given you another option.
I am pretty confident they would take a dim view of any refusal .
This may well be put to the test soon given the conflicting views on here.
Will be interesting to see the outcome, but differing committees may come to different decisions.
I did ask but nobody answered.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			I strongly agree with the point that a lot of this is never going to speed up the slow players.  We have had several instances recently of players recoding 10 plus on their score cards in stableford comps.

Ready Golf has been in force at our club for a very long time now but we still have groups who just will not play it. They all walk to one ball watch the the guy hit, walk to the next ball and so on and still continue to do so despite being spoken to on several occasions.
		
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Slow players are just slow!
All the rule changes in the world wonâ€™t change that.


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## Wolf (Jan 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I donâ€™t think he would win .
If he refused a reasonable request to tend the flag I would just let the comp committee decide.
The â€œrulesâ€ on tending the flag hasnâ€™t changed itâ€™s just given you another option.
I am pretty confident they would take a dim view of any refusal .
This may well be put to the test soon given the conflicting views on here.
Will be interesting to see the outcome, but differing committees may come to different decisions.
I did ask but nobody answered.
		
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That's the thing though I think he will win. The new rules stipulate what can be done when tending the flag, they do not state just because a player asks you to that you have to do it. Therefore that's more of an etiquette thing between you and your opponent.  He cannot be disqualified for breaking a rule as he hasn't broken any rule of golf by refusing. It would be you who has walked off the course because of a debate of etiquette thus awarding him the match. If your club tried to then award you the game saying he has breached a rule then club would be in the wrong also and he should still be awared the match.  Though you could argue he is morally  in the wrong, he is not doing anything against the rules of golf


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			That's the thing though I think he will win. The new rules stipulate what can be done when tending the flag, they do not state just because a player asks you to that you have to do it. Therefore that's more of an etiquette thing between you and your opponent.  He cannot be disqualified for breaking a rule as he hasn't broken any rule of golf by refusing. It would be you who has walked off the course because of a debate of etiquette thus awarding him the match. If your club tried to then award you the game saying he has breached a rule then club would be in the wrong also and he should still be awared the match. Because though you could argue me is morally in the wrong, he is not doing anything against the rules of golf
		
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You can be DQ for a serious breach of etiquette.
It happened at my club a few weeks ago and the guy was the winner!
As I said it will be interesting to find out.

I will ask the rules guys.


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## Wolf (Jan 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			You can be DQ for a serious breach of etiquette.
It happened at my club a few weeks ago and the guy was the winner!
As I said it will be interesting to find out.
		
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But again it's one word against another, you walk off the course your also breaching etiquette of playing your agreed match. I would still argue walking off is the greater breach of etiquette than not tending the flag. So if I were that person I'd argue that all the way with the committee. 

Edit: as you say that will be interesting


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## williamalex1 (Jan 2, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			If someone plays using all the old rules come 2019, how many of the new rules could they possibly break and be penalised for ? .
		
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Any takers ?


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			But again it's one word against another, you walk off the course your also breaching etiquette of playing your agreed match. I would still argue walking off is the greater breach of etiquette than not tending the flag. So if I were that person I'd argue that all the way with the committee. 

Edit: as you say that will be interesting
		
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I would argue the refusal was first and as such caused the second.

I am intrigued now to find out so have posted the question in the rules section.


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## Wolf (Jan 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would argue the refusal was first and as such caused the second.

I am intrigued now to find out so have posted the question in the rules section.
		
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That's the interesting part of the debate isn't it can open up a huge can of worms.l. 

Just seen your post and will follow with interest.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 2, 2019)

So have we moved on from post 279?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			That's the thing though I think he will win. The new rules stipulate what can be done when tending the flag, they do not state just because a player asks you to that you have to do it. Therefore that's more of an etiquette thing between you and your opponent.  He cannot be disqualified for breaking a rule as he hasn't broken any rule of golf by refusing. It would be you who has walked off the course because of a debate of etiquette thus awarding him the match. If your club tried to then award you the game saying he has breached a rule then club would be in the wrong also and he should still be awared the match. Because though you could argue me is morally in the wrong, he is not doing anything against the rules of golf
		
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clubchamp98 said:



			I would argue the refusal was first and as such caused the second.

I am intrigued now to find out so have posted the question in the rules section.
		
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I'm with you on this one, life's too short to be wasting time playing against clowns.
Never bothered about the result in matchplay as long as the game is played in the right spirit.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So have we moved on from post 279?
		
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Itâ€™s a civil debate , thereâ€™s been no trouble between us just differing views.
Isnâ€™t that what we do here?
Asked the rules guys now but itâ€™s not looking good for me.
And it looks like you may be wrong ,apparently itâ€™s not a major breach!


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## TheDiablo (Jan 2, 2019)

Not sure what all the fuss is about here. I suppose those posting are the ones with the strongest opinions on the topic either way, which is why is looks like a simple rule change will actually cause golfing armeggedon. 

Personally I'll putt with the flag in on every hole until a pp/fc asks for it out and I'll then I'll just keep it out, and expect the vast majority of players will do the same. Over time I expect more and more people will leave it in and it will become normal in years to come, especially if pros do it. 

The rules aren't just set for your immediate next round of golf, but also for the long term future and will take a while to bed in. 

As for the tending, if in a comp or match I'll do as asked. I'd then bring it up in the bar and politely challenge why - most will simply do it out of habit and will not actually think any other way until a discussion on it. Socially, not a chance - putt up and get on with it. 

Would be nice if the new rules combined could save 10/15 mins per round, but the changes don't really address the main causes of slow play so expecting any more than that is going to lead to a let down imo. 

As many have said, most clubs encourage ready golf and have done for a long time - some groups are just set in very old habits and as they also age and get slower physically then this obviously causes them to play slower. At the other end you've plenty of youngsters copying incredibly slow Pro routines too.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			Not sure what all the fuss is about here. I suppose those posting are the ones with the strongest opinions on the topic either way, which is why is looks like a simple rule change will actually cause golfing armeggedon. 

Personally I'll putt with the flag in on every hole until a pp/fc asks for it out and I'll then I'll just keep it out, and expect the vast majority of players will do the same. Over time I expect more and more people will leave it in and it will become normal in years to come, especially if pros do it. 

The rules aren't just set for your immediate next round of golf, but also for the long term future and will take a while to bed in. 

As for the tending, if in a comp or match I'll do as asked. I'd then bring it up in the bar and politely challenge why - most will simply do it out of habit and will not actually think any other way until a discussion on it. Socially, not a chance - putt up and get on with it. 

Would be nice if the new rules combined could save 10/15 mins per round, but the changes don't really address the main causes of slow play so expecting any more than that is going to lead to a let down imo. 

As many have said, most clubs encourage ready golf and have done for a long time - some groups are just set in very old habits and as they also age and get slower physically then this obviously causes them to play slower. At the other end you've plenty of youngsters copying incredibly slow Pro routines too.
		
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Yes I see your point but the change has had consequences for people who like the flag attended.
Itâ€™s a personal choice. I never have the flag in if I can see the hole properly.
But respect anotherâ€™s choice to have it in if they want.

I donâ€™t think we can change slow play itâ€™s here for keeps imo.


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## ger147 (Jan 2, 2019)

The simplest solution is to remove the option to have the flag tended.  The reason it was an option was to avoid the penalty of the ball hitting the pin on long putts when you can't see the hole clearly.  As there is no longer a penalty in this scenario then there is no reason to have the pin tended any more.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The simplest solution is to remove the option to have the flag tended.  The reason it was an option was to avoid the penalty of the ball hitting the pin on long putts when you can't see the hole clearly.  As there is no longer a penalty in this scenario then there is no reason to have the pin tended any more.
		
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Top of the class Sir!

ðŸ‘â›³


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The simplest solution is to remove the option to have the flag tended.  The reason it was an option was to avoid the penalty of the ball hitting the pin on long putts when you can't see the hole clearly.  As there is no longer a penalty in this scenario then there is no reason to have the pin tended any more.
		
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You make the assumption that the only possible disadvantage to hitting the pin is a penalty. That is a huge assumption and, as already posted, one that is currently being tested by a huge number of professionals and coaches ahead of this weekend's tournaments - the only thing you can be absolutely sure about is that if there is any possible overall benefit in having the pin remain in the hole when putting it will never be coming out again on TV!


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## bobmac (Jan 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The simplest solution is to remove the option to have the flag tended.  The reason it was an option was to avoid the penalty of the ball hitting the pin on long putts when you can't see the hole clearly.  As there is no longer a penalty in this scenario *then there is no reason to have the pin tended any more*.
		
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You will at some stage play with someone who wants the pin tended for 2 reasons 
1. He can't see the hole clearly.
2. He believes the flag could stop the ball from dropping


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## AmandaJR (Jan 2, 2019)

Not read the whole debate but, for me, when I'm close enough that I can see the whole hole clearly then it looks like a bigger target without a flagpole in the middle of it. I thought Dave Peltz or someone established one way or the other regarding the odds of the flag pole helping/hindering?


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## richart (Jan 2, 2019)

Does the flag have to be a uniform thickness ? Hoping we might be allowed 4.25 inch flags so even more chance of ball dropping.




Hold on I am only one step away from asking for bigger holes.


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## ger147 (Jan 2, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			You make the assumption that the only possible disadvantage to hitting the pin is a penalty. That is a huge assumption and, as already posted, one that is currently being tested by a huge number of professionals and coaches ahead of this weekend's tournaments - the only thing you can be absolutely sure about is that if there is any possible overall benefit in having the pin remain in the hole when putting it will never be coming out again on TV!
		
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I'm not making any assumptions at all, I was talking about the rules as they were vs the rules as they are now.

With the 2 shot penalty for hitting the pin it was an absolute necessity to have the flag tended rule as it would be wholly unreasonable for the rules of golf to requite the player to putt from long distance without being able to see the hole.

The rules have now removed the 2 shot penalty for hitting the pin and therefore IMO there is no requirement to have a pin tended option included within the rules.

The advantahe/disadvantage argument is entirely different and separate argument but does not IMO alter the fact that there is no longer a requirement for the rules of golf to include a pin tended option.


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## richart (Jan 2, 2019)

bobmac said:



			You will at some stage play with someone who wants the pin tended for 2 reasons
1. He can't see the hole clearly.
2. He believes the flag could stop the ball from dropping
		
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 Surely it makes no difference if flag tended or left in for point 1 ? Not as if you can hold the flag up above the hole, or can you ?
Take your point 2, but that is a very confident putter that thinks he is going to hole from such long distance. I wouldn't have the nerve to ask for the pin to be tended from long range, when at best I will probably lag putt to a few feet.

I do remember Seve having the pin tended from 15 feet by his caddie. He would lean the flag as well, so assume Seve was aiming at a point on the flag. Always looked strange but difficult to argue with Seve's putting.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I'm not making any assumptions at all, I was talking about the rules as they were vs the rules as they are now.

With the 2 shot penalty for hitting the pin it was an absolute necessity to have the flag tended rule as it would be wholly unreasonable for the rules of golf to requite the player to putt from long distance without being able to see the hole.

The rules have now removed the 2 shot penalty for hitting the pin and therefore IMO there is no requirement to have a pin tended option included within the rules.

The advantahe/disadvantage argument is entirely different and separate argument but does not IMO alter the fact that there is no longer a requirement for the rules of golf to include a pin tended option.
		
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Sorry, but that makes no sense.

You might as well say that the fact that the rules no longer have a penalty for a ball played from the putting green striking the flagstick has no relevance to whether you would wish it in, or out, when making your stroke. Your decision on whether to have it out, or tended, will be based solely on your view (or otherwise) of the hole when making your stroke.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Sorry, but that makes no sense.

You might as well say that the fact that the rules no longer have a penalty for a ball played from the putting green striking the flagstick has no relevance to whether you would wish it in, or out, when making your stroke. Your decision on whether to have it out, or tended, will be based solely on your view (or otherwise) of the hole when making your stroke.
		
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And that ^^^^ also.makes no sense.


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## ger147 (Jan 2, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Sorry, but that makes no sense.

You might as well say that the fact that the rules no longer have a penalty for a ball played from the putting green striking the flagstick has no relevance to whether you would wish it in, or out, when making your stroke. Your decision on whether to have it out, or tended, will be based solely on your view (or otherwise) of the hole when making your stroke.
		
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Not sure what doesn't make sense, I can't explain it any more clearly.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			And that ^^^^ also.makes no sense.
		
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You don't believe that having the flagstick in or out based on whether it increases your probability of holing the putt makes sense?


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not sure what doesn't make sense, I can't explain it any more clearly.
		
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Simply because he doesn't agree, that is why.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			You don't believe that having the flagstick in or out based on whether it increases your probability of holing the putt makes sense?
		
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No.

It will still depend on speed and direction. No scientific formula will determine that a ball will drop or it won't. Even the spin will determine/be a factor in if it's going to drop or not.

Always an element of luck involved.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 2, 2019)

What is puzzling me (if that is the word) is the assumption on the part of some people,  that tending the flag is "faffing about"? It takes exactly the same length of time to stand near a flag lying on the green as it does to stand next to it in attendance? (ie the length of time it takes someone to putt.)   Whether attending is necessary or not has no bearing on me having to wait while a putt is made?


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## Homer (Jan 2, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			What is puzzling me (if that is the word) is the assumption on the part of some people,  that tending the flag is "faffing about"? It takes exactly the same length of time to stand near a flag lying on the green as it does to stand next to it in attendance? (ie the length of time it takes someone to putt.)   Whether attending is necessary or not has no bearing on me having to wait while a putt is made?
		
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You can be doing something else - ie getting ready to take your putt next.


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## bobmac (Jan 2, 2019)

When I learned to play golf I was taught the person whose ball was nearest the hole tended the flag if needed or removed it and the first to hole out fetched and replaced the flag in the hole when the last person holed out.

No faffing required


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## backwoodsman (Jan 2, 2019)

Homer said:



			You can be doing something else - ie getting ready to take your putt next.
		
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And if my ball is already in the hole, or more likely, already in my pocket?

Or if someone else is going to putt before me? 

Yes we play ready golf, but we all can't/don't putt at the same time. So we wait.


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## trevor (Jan 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The simplest solution is to remove the option to have the flag tended.  The reason it was an option was to avoid the penalty of the ball hitting the pin on long putts when you can't see the hole clearly.  As there is no longer a penalty in this scenario then there is no reason to have the pin tended any more.
		
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Wasnâ€™t a post very similar to that written about 200 posts ago? ðŸ˜


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 2, 2019)

bobmac said:



			When I learned to play golf I was taught the person whose ball was nearest the hole tended the flag if needed or removed it and the first to hole out fetched and replaced the flag in the hole when the last person holed out.

No faffing required
		
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We have never had a problem doing this exact thing.
The only time saved would be the first putt from distance before the others are on the green to get the flag.

I spend more time kicking the grass on the tee waiting for the games in front.


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## Imurg (Jan 3, 2019)

Played new rules this morning, mostly flag in but occasionally flag out.
Time saved.....?
Er..none.
Took us virtually the same amount of time as usual.


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## rulefan (Jan 3, 2019)

Stones no longer loose impediments in bunker by local rule.


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## Dasit (Jan 4, 2019)

Played for the first time with new rules.


Flag in was a delight, really does speed it up a bit. Not having someone treading around the hole tending the flags, when the greens are soft, is a big plus I think.


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