# WHS Handicap Index



## jim8flog (Jul 21, 2020)

From the charts (and from memory at the workshop)  it says that existing players with handicaps need to have 3 qualifying scores (from January 2018) in their handicap record to get a handicap index.

Does anybody know different? If yes what is the source?


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## rulefan (Jul 21, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			From the charts (and from memory at the workshop)  it says that existing players with handicaps need to have 3 qualifying scores (from January 2018) in their handicap record to get a handicap index.

Does anybody know different? If yes what is the source?
		
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They will be transferred to the WHS system but will be treated like a new starter until they get 3 scores in.
I will try to find the source later when I have a few minutes.


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## rulefan (Jul 21, 2020)

It is in a document called WHS - FAQs issued in November last year and is confirmed in the Toolkit recently issued to clubs.

Attached is the process showing how an initial index is built up


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## jim8flog (Jul 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			They will be transferred to the WHS system but will be treated like a new starter until they get 3 scores in.
I will try to find the source later when I have a few minutes.
		
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 Thanks found it in the FAQs for the Toolkit

The answer given to the manager querying it was a bit more vague and made it read like a player would be some sort of arbitary H.I.


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## jim8flog (Jul 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It is in a document called WHS - FAQs issued in November last year and is confirmed in the Toolkit recently issued to clubs.

Attached is the process showing how an initial index is built up
		
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Interesting discussion with the Manager today who has yet again been on the WHS part of England Golf.

They said

All players with an a existing CONGU handicap will be given a Handicap Index regardless of the number of cards. We have players with no qualifying scores for at least 3 years and  E.G. have said that they will be given a H.I. solely based upon their handicap.


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## rulefan (Jul 22, 2020)

From the recent EG toolkit

*Q*: As a golfer who plays a very small number of competitions, I suspect I will not have 20 scores recorded over the last two years. Can I still have a Handicap Index?
*A:* Those players who do not have the full 20 scores at transition will have a Handicap Index allocated by the same process as an initial Handicap Index would be allocated and developed.

Those with a handicap and less than 3 scores will be given 3 scores equivalent to their CONGU handicap and then start the process in the table #3


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## jim8flog (Jul 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			From the recent EG toolkit

*Q*: As a golfer who plays a very small number of competitions, I suspect I will not have 20 scores recorded over the last two years. Can I still have a Handicap Index?
*A:* Those players who do not have the full 20 scores at transition will have a Handicap Index allocated by the same process as an initial Handicap Index would be allocated and developed.

Those with a handicap and less than 3 scores will be given 3 scores equivalent to their CONGU handicap and then start the process in the table #3
		
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 I had read that and found the wording very easy to misinterpretation

I had read it to mean that a player must submit 3 cards to to get an initial handicap index.


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## rulefan (Jul 23, 2020)

The 'artificial' allocation of three scores is only for those existing players who have less than 3 scores recorded since 2018 (of course they will undoubtedly not have 'c' status). But they will have a legitimate CONGU handicap and will at some time have put in 3 scores to qualify for a handicap.
If they are new players and have not yet returned the three cards required they will not have a handicap yet. I don't know how they will be 'transitioned' but have been told there are too many numerous 'tricky' situations to list them all. But they are in the algorithm somewhere and affected players/clubs will be informed at the time.


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## jim8flog (Jul 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The 'artificial' allocation of three scores is only for those existing players who have less than 3 scores recorded since 2018 (of course they will undoubtedly not have 'c' status). But they will have a legitimate CONGU handicap and will at some time have put in 3 scores to qualify for a handicap.
If they are new players and have not yet returned the three cards required they will not have a handicap yet. I don't know how they will be 'transitioned' but have been told there are too many numerous 'tricky' situations to list them all. But they are in the algorithm somewhere and affected players/clubs will be informed at the time.
		
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 It was the numerous members member we have at our club, from a very quick check using the competition handicap report (over 100 on that with less than 3 in the system), that have not played any comps or submitted any Supps either since the start of 2018 and also known to me many for many years before that, that I was being concerned with.


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## rulefan (Jul 23, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It was the numerous members member we have at our club, from a very quick check using the competition handicap report (over 100 on that with less than 3 in the system), that have not played any comps or submitted any Supps either since the start of 2018 and also known to me many for many years before that, that I was being concerned with.
		
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Crikey


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## jim8flog (Jul 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Crikey
		
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 Having done a thorough check I managed to whittle the figure down to 66 players. Quite a few look as though they have given up playing in comps due to age.


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## IainP (Jul 24, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Having done a thorough check I managed to whittle the figure down to 66 players. Quite a few look as though they have given up playing in comps due to age.
		
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Which perhaps begs the question do they need a handicap index - if just playing socially?


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## rulefan (Jul 24, 2020)

Why not? At present it doesn't cost them or the club anything.


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## rulefan (Jul 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Not for the first time I’m not really understanding the point. Surely a handicap based on so few (and old) scores is effectively worthless?
		
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That is why 'c' status (formerly 'active/inactive') was introduced. The concept didn't fit in with the rest of the world, so has been dropped in WHS. But there's more than one way
to skin a cat.


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## jim8flog (Jul 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			Which perhaps begs the question do they need a handicap index - if just playing socially?
		
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The question comes why are they only playing socially when once a lot were quite clearly fairly active?

Maybe it's about feeling that they cannot compete.

Maybe if they were to put in the necessary cards to be given a H.I. which reflects current ability maybe they would start playing comps again.

My own view is why give them a Handicap Index based upon very old data which is then going to make it harder to get to a H.I. which reflects their current ability. Why not simply *not* give then a H.I. until they submit 3 cards and treat them like a newly handicapped player. However their was a minor uproar at our club when they were informed this could happen. It seems that to quite a few having handicap is more important than having a correct handicap.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 26, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			From the charts (and from memory at the workshop)  it says that existing players with handicaps need to have 3 qualifying scores (from January 2018) in their handicap record to get a handicap index.

Does anybody know different? If yes what is the source?
		
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I thought that as the introduction of WHS was delayed from Q1 2020 to November 2020 the period for considering scores to calculate the new handicap indexes was January 2019 to end October 2020.

I'm trying to find out this will be done. Will it just be taking the gross differentials we are generating now (Score - CSS) and averaging the best 8 of 20 (or pro-rata as per the formula discussed) or will they try to apply the same process under WHS but backdate it to the previous scores? I don't know how they could do this but unless they do then the new indices will not change too much from the current exact handicaps.


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## jim8flog (Jul 26, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I thought that as the introduction of WHS was delayed from Q1 2020 to November 2020 the period for considering scores to calculate the new handicap indexes was January 2019 to end October 2020.

I'm trying to find out this will be done. Will it just be taking the gross differentials we are generating now (Score - CSS) and averaging the best 8 of 20 (or pro-rata as per the formula discussed) or will they try to apply the same process under WHS but backdate it to the previous scores? I don't know how they could do this but unless they do then the new indices will not change too much from the current exact handicaps.
		
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 see rule fans post #6

This is about what they told our manager -The player will given a H.I equivalent to their current handicap whether or not this was -2 he could not be sure.

Rule fans quoted method means they will get -2.

From going through the H/C history of all the affected players I am fairly sure a large number will not give a monkey's because they no longer play in comps.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 26, 2020)

Sorry talking about all players not just those with lt 3 scores.

If I have 20 acceptable scores by 31st October over several courses how do the calculate my handicap index?

is it the average of the best 8 differentials in the 20 based on score - CSS or are they going to apply the new method to my past scores to recalculate the new differentials?


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## rulefan (Jul 26, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I thought that as the introduction of WHS was delayed from Q1 2020 to November 2020 the period for considering scores to calculate the new handicap indexes was January 2019 to end October 2020.

I'm trying to find out this will be done. Will it just be taking the gross differentials we are generating now (Score - CSS) and averaging the best 8 of 20 (or pro-rata as per the formula discussed) or will they try to apply the same process under WHS but backdate it to the previous scores? I don't know how they could do this but unless they do then the new indices will not change too much from the current exact handicaps.
		
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The period goes back to Jan 2018.

They will take the last 20 qualifying scores. Start with the oldest and calculate a score differential as if it it was the players first card. It will be repeated in age sequence until all 20 scores have been processed. Then use the best 8 to determine the handicap index. if there are less than 20 scores the table in post #3 will be used.


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## rulefan (Jul 26, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			The question comes why are they only playing socially when once a lot were quite clearly fairly active?

Maybe it's about feeling that they cannot compete.

Maybe if they were to put in the necessary cards to be given a H.I. which reflects current ability maybe they would start playing comps again.

My own view is why give them a Handicap Index based upon very old data which is then going to make it harder to get to a H.I. which reflects their current ability. Why not simply *not* give then a H.I. until they submit 3 cards and treat them like a newly handicapped player. However their was a minor uproar at our club when they were informed this could happen. It seems that to quite a few having handicap is more important than having a correct handicap.
		
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Prior to the actual conversion clubs will be given a 'pre run'. This will give the committee an opportunity to spot and plan how to deal with 'anomalies'.
After the actual transition, the committee should look at the lists and may/should adjust the HI of any player they feel is incorrect. Of course they should have sorted out the caps of players who have 'out of date' caps in previous annual reviews.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The period goes back to Jan 2018.

They will take the last 20 qualifying scores. Start with the oldest and* calculate a score differential as if it it was the players first card*. It will be repeated in age sequence until all 20 scores have been processed. Then use the best 8 to determine the handicap index. if there are less than 20 scores the table in post #3 will be used.
		
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Are you implying they will use the WHS methodology to do this? If so how will they map the courses currently used with SSS with the new ones we are loading into the WHS Portal?


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## rulefan (Jul 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Are you implying they will use the WHS methodology to do this? If so how will they map the courses currently used with SSS with the new ones we are loading into the WHS Portal?
		
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Not implying, that is the way it will work.
The USGA assessed Slope and Course Rating will be used. NB All CONGU courses (except England Men's) have had USGA Slope and Course Ratings (as SSS) for many years.
But I'm not sure if the original SSS (England Men) will be used for scores where the new CR is different to the old SSS (because of course changes). I suspect not.

Those few courses which have not yet had a USGA rating will use the SSS and have a temporary 'average' slope rating assigned.
For all rated courses, the SSS is already the assessed Course Rating.


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## jim8flog (Jul 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			. Of course they should have sorted out the caps of players who have 'out of date' caps in previous annual reviews.
		
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!!! How do you adjust the handicap of a player with no handicap history for several years?

We spotted this problem when handicaps were increased to 54.

Players with a reasonable handicap history were revised in line with the increase but we could do nothing to those without.


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## rulefan (Jul 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			!!! How do you adjust the handicap of a player with no handicap history for several years?

We spotted this problem when handicaps were increased to 54.

Players with a reasonable handicap history were revised in line with the increase but we could do nothing to those without.
		
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The committee is entitled to make an assessment. 
The player can be asked if they would be prepared to put 3 cards in or ask to be unregistered and thereby not have a handicap at all.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Not implying, that is the way it will work.
The USGA assessed Slope and Course Rating will be used. NB All CONGU courses (except England Men's) have had USGA Slope and Course Ratings (as SSS) for many years.
But I'm not sure if the original SSS (England Men) will be used for scores where the new CR is different to the old SSS (because of course changes). I suspect not.

Those few courses which have not yet had a USGA rating will use the SSS and have a temporary 'average' slope rating assigned.
For all rated courses, the SSS is already the assessed Course Rating.
		
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Sorry to be pedantic but I don't see how this will work.

I get the CR vs SSS point - infact our are a maximum of 0.2 different from each other with no rounding difference.

My point is quite simple really - we have 6 course that have been assessed (3 x 9 & 3 X 18 which are combinations of the 9s). In the current CONGU system we only have the 3 X 18s assessed but I don't understand how they are mapped against the new ones. When I put the courses into the WHS portal it doesn't ask me which old definition this relates to so how can it work out how to apply CR & Slope to the old score?

We are just over 3 months away and trying to put education together for our members and I appreciate everyone is struggling in the Covid-19 environment but the lack for clear communication about key milestones / actions is an increasing concern. We have posters - boy do we have posters - but things keep popping up which give me reason to worry about a successful implementation.


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## rulefan (Jul 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I get the CR vs SSS point - infact our are a maximum of 0.2 different from each other with no rounding difference.

My point is quite simple really - we have 6 course that have been assessed (3 x 9 & 3 X 18 which are combinations of the 9s). In the current CONGU system we only have the 3 X 18s assessed but I don't understand how they are mapped against the new ones. When I put the courses into the WHS portal it doesn't ask me which old definition this relates to so how can it work out how to apply CR & Slope to the old score?
		
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I'm aftraid I don't know the details. I suggest you ask EG directly.




			We are just over 3 months away and trying to put education together for our members and I appreciate everyone is struggling in the Covid-19 environment but the lack for clear communication about key milestones / actions is an increasing concern. We have posters - boy do we have posters - but things keep popping up which give me reason to worry about a successful implementation.
		
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I reckon the trick is not to try to over educate your members. Whether they understand the transition process or not makes no difference. To be frank, they'll get what the system gives them. I wouldn't even bother trying.

You only have to get across the basics.
The difference between an Index which is course/tee independent and a Course Handicap which is tee specific.
Index is transportable around the world.
Handicap varies with tees.
Extra strokes as your handicap goes up (ie how slope works in principle).
Overnight updating.


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## jim8flog (Jul 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Sorry to be pedantic but I don't see how this will work.

I get the CR vs SSS point - infact our are a maximum of 0.2 different from each other with no rounding difference.

My point is quite simple really - we have 6 course that have been assessed (3 x 9 & 3 X 18 which are combinations of the 9s). In the current CONGU system we only have the 3 X 18s assessed but I don't understand how they are mapped against the new ones. When I put the courses into the WHS portal it doesn't ask me which old definition this relates to so how can it work out how to apply CR & Slope to the old score?

We are just over 3 months away and trying to put education together for our members and I appreciate everyone is struggling in the Covid-19 environment but the lack for clear communication about key milestones / actions is an increasing concern. We have posters - boy do we have posters - but things keep popping up which give me reason to worry about a successful implementation.
		
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We have a 9 hole course (as well as the 18) with 3 diiferent teeing area s on each hole (red, yellow and white) on which different combinations of the 9 with different tees are used to provide an 18 hole card for either sex.

All variations of the 9 hole course are generally used to provide 18 holes for either sex all the variations have been given a slope rating in such a way it is easy to understand.

I can understand your problem if this has not been done.


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## rosecott (Jul 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Are you implying they will use the WHS methodology to do this? If so how will they map the courses currently used with SSS with the new ones we are loading into the WHS Portal?
		
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I am suffering from a communications hiccup with England Golf and I am struggling to locate the WHS Portal. Can you point me in its direction?


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 27, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I am suffering from a communications hiccup with England Golf and I am struggling to locate the WHS Portal. Can you point me in its direction?
		
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http://org.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/


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## Mozza14 (Jul 31, 2020)

Am I correct in saying that the initial calculation of the Handicap Index mirrors the ongoing system? So in my case, I have 20 relevant qualifying scores from white and yellow tees. Do I calculate the adjusted gross scores to each new course rating (slightly different to SSS), then standardise by getting back to 113. e.g 77 - 71.6 =5.4 . Then 5.4 times 113/123=5.0.  Sort the best eight eight and average them?

My Handicapping Chair seems to think something different will happen to produce this magic number but he can't seem to define it! 

If I am correct all members should be able to check their intitial Handicap Index.


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## rulefan (Jul 31, 2020)

Unless I've missed something I reckon you've got it. But what do you understand by adjusted gross  ?


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## Mozza14 (Jul 31, 2020)

The gross score as adjusted back to a maximum score per hole of a net double bogey. Therafter the differential can be further adjusted by any CSS difference from SSS. These adjustments for the historical data.

I have heard another phrase used post WHS for a playing condition adjustment. Presumably similar to CSS but perhaps something different?


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 31, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Am I correct in saying that the initial calculation of the Handicap Index mirrors the ongoing system? So in my case, I have 20 relevant qualifying scores from white and yellow tees. Do I calculate the adjusted gross scores to each new course rating (slightly different to SSS), then standardise by getting back to 113. e.g 77 - 71.6 =5.4 . Then 5.4 times 113/123=5.0.  Sort the best eight eight and average them?

My Handicapping Chair seems to think something different will happen to produce this magic number but he can't seem to define it!

If I am correct all members should be able to check their intitial Handicap Index.
		
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But why would they want to? Are they concerned the implementation by England golf will be wrong?

We have been promised an early view of the handicap indexes before implementation which will do for most people I think. The focus will be on those players whoes HI differs dramatically from their current handicap which will mainly be due to lack of posted scores I believe.

Nobody checks to see if CSS has been calculated correctly by the computer (Do they?)


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## rulefan (Aug 1, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			The gross score as adjusted back to a maximum score per hole of a net double bogey. Therafter the differential can be further adjusted by any CSS difference from SSS. These adjustments for the historical data.

I have heard another phrase used post WHS for a playing condition adjustment. Presumably similar to CSS but perhaps something different?
		
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Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC)
The statistical calculation that determines if conditions on a day of play differed from normal playing conditions to the extent that they significantly impacted players' performance.
Examples of conditions include:
Course condition, weather conditions and course set-up.


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## Mozza14 (Aug 1, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			But why would they want to? Are they concerned the implementation by England golf will be wrong?

We have been promised an early view of the handicap indexes before implementation which will do for most people I think. The focus will be on those players whoes HI differs dramatically from their current handicap which will mainly be due to lack of posted scores I believe.

Nobody checks to see if CSS has been calculated correctly by the computer (Do they?)
		
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Yes I am looking forward to seeing the early view and it will do for most people. I have simply been interested to understand how the calculation will work and if it is as I have described it is quite easy to work it out in advance on a spreadsheet. I have already done it for myself and my wife and there are some interesting implications.

That is much easier than calculating the CSS or the new PCC which is an entirely different and more complex thing from calculating the Handicap Index under the new WHS.


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## jim8flog (Aug 1, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			The gross score as adjusted back to a maximum score per hole of a net double bogey. Therafter the differential can be further adjusted by any CSS difference from SSS. These adjustments for the historical data.

I have heard another phrase used post WHS for a playing condition adjustment. Presumably similar to CSS but perhaps something different?
		
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Do you not have access to your handicap history - if yes forget about CSS and nett double bogeys because it is all done for you. Just look at the nett differential figure.

eg Column 18





Ongoing, when it starts, I am not sure you will be able to calculate it for your self if you throw in a really good score. An exceptional score resets all the data before before that date and also there is the hard and soft caps to consider. These caps do not let a handicap move too far away from a players demonstrated ability in too short a time.


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## Mozza14 (Aug 1, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Do you not have access to your handicap history - if yes forget about CSS and nett double bogeys because it is all done for you. Just look at the nett differential figure.

eg Column 18


View attachment 31836


Ongoing, when it starts, I am not sure you will be able to calculate it for your self if you throw in a really good score. An exceptional score resets all the data before before that date and also there is the hard and soft caps to consider. These caps do not let a handicap move too far away from a players demonstrated ability in too short a time.
		
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Thank you. Yes I have used that Handicap record but basically worked back to get the adjusted gross score and compared it to the new Course Rating rather than the CSS. A  difference of 0.4 lower from our White tees. Do you know if the software will do it this way or simply using the net differential?

I take your point about caps and ESR but I confess I am not fully up to speed on these. My days of ESR are probably long gone.


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## jim8flog (Aug 2, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Thank you. Yes I have used that Handicap record but basically worked back to get the adjusted gross score and compared it to the new Course Rating rather than the CSS. A  difference of 0.4 lower from our White tees. Do you know if the software will do it this way or simply using the net differential?

I take your point about caps and ESR but I confess I am not fully up to speed on these. My days of ESR are probably long gone.
		
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When the WHS comes in and you are given an initial Handicap Index it will be based upon the scores held on the CDH system and not your club's ISV system. I am sorry I do not know exactly what information is uploaded to the CDH at this time.

Given that Course Ratings were only done for most clubs during the past year and they are going back the start of 2018 I would expect them to use nett differentials for initial H.I.


I am using nett differential for my personal spreadsheet and to be honest one of the things I have noticed it it takes a fairly big better than handicap score or it will take a run of scores better to significantly change the handicap index when there are 20 scores in the history.

Since returning to playing I have put 6 scores and which have varied quite widely, some low scores from June 2019 got knocked off the record and the H.I. has only moved by 0.2 at most. Mind you the scores that count are only within a 3 shot range. What is also interesting is that the playing handicap has not altered with rounding and the 95% allowance.


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## Mozza14 (Aug 2, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			When the WHS comes in and you are given an initial Handicap Index it will be based upon the scores held on the CDH system and not your club's ISV system. I am sorry I do not know exactly what information is uploaded to the CDH at this time.

Given that Course Ratings were only done for most clubs during the past year and they are going back the start of 2018 I would expect them to use nett differentials for initial H.I.


I am using nett differential for my personal spreadsheet and to be honest one of the things I have noticed it it takes a fairly big better than handicap score or it will take a run of scores better to significantly change the handicap index when there are 20 scores in the history.

Since returning to playing I have put 6 scores and which have varied quite widely, some low scores from June 2019 got knocked off the record and the H.I. has only moved by 0.2 at most. Mind you the scores that count are only within a 3 shot range. What is also interesting is that the playing handicap has not altered with rounding and the 95% allowance.
		
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 I agree it is not clear exactly what  data will be used in the transition. Hence my original question. I also have six new scores this year and agree that even though they have generally been average to poor my HI has also not changed significantly. For the time being that makes sense to me. What was alarming was that my HI was coming out at 3.4 with a Course Handicap of 4. That was worrying because my lowest ever handicap under CONGU is 5 which is challenging enough for a 63 year old, never mind reducing it further. At the other end of the scale my wife's Handicap moves up  from 21 to a Course Handicap of 23. My conclusion is that the change will generally help higher handicaps and make it even tougher for lower.

Using net differentials rather than Course Ratings makes a very minor difference but can in some circumstances produce an extra shot or reduce it by one dependant on the actual differences.


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## jim8flog (Aug 2, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I agree it is not clear exactly what  data will be used in the transition. Hence my original question. I also have six new scores this year and agree that even though they have generally been average to poor my HI has also not changed significantly. For the time being that makes sense to me. What was alarming was that my HI was coming out at 3.4 with a Course Handicap of 4. That was worrying because my lowest ever handicap under CONGU is 5 which is challenging enough for a 63 year old, never mind reducing it further. At the other end of the scale my wife's Handicap moves up  from 21 to a Course Handicap of 23. My conclusion is that the change will generally help higher handicaps and make it even tougher for lower.

Using net differentials rather than Course Ratings makes a very minor difference but can in some circumstances produce an extra shot or reduce it by one dependant on the actual differences.
		
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Given that under the WHS 36 points is now playing to handicap does the lower handicap under the WHS reflect the change in what the Stableford points are currently when you play to handicap.

Where I play we have gone a little bit the other way. My WHS playing handicap remains unchanged compared to my current handicap but currently 37 points is playing to handicap.


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## rulefan (Aug 2, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I agree it is not clear exactly what  data will be used in the transition. Hence my original question. I also have six new scores this year and agree that even though they have generally been average to poor* my HI has also not changed significantly.* For the time being that makes sense to me*. What was alarming was that my HI was coming out at 3.4 with a Course Handicap of 4.* That was worrying because my lowest ever handicap under CONGU is 5 which is challenging enough for a 63 year old, never mind reducing it further. At the other end of the scale my wife's Handicap moves up  *from 21 to a Course Handicap of 23*. My conclusion is that the change will generally help higher handicaps and make it even tougher for lower.

Using net differentials rather than Course Ratings makes a very minor difference but can in some circumstances produce an extra shot or reduce it by one dependant on the actual differences.
		
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The WHS transition does not calculate a Course Handicap. It only calculates a Handicap Index.
What is the SSS/CR of the course/tees where most of your scores were recorded? Did it change when you were rated?
A CH relates to a specific set of tees on a specific course. But the effect of the transition conversion calculation is that exactly the same algorithm is applied to all players regardless of the course(s) and tees they may have played in the last two years.

Re the red highlight. How did you determine your HI? I wasn't aware that HIs were published yet.


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## rulefan (Aug 2, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I am sorry I do not know exactly what information is uploaded to the CDH at this time.
		
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SSS, CSS, Gross, Handicap (integer), Net, Stableford Adjustment, Adjusted Gross, Par, Gross Differential, Net Differential.




			What is also interesting is that the playing handicap has not altered with rounding and the 95% allowance.
		
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I'm not sure what the relevance of the 95% is. It is only applied at the time of competition not as a result of the transition calculation.


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## fundy (Aug 2, 2020)

Can I ask those in the know, if someone moves clubs just before the WHS is implemented so some of their qualifying rounds are from their previous course, are these still taken into account when calculating their index, and if so are they treated on the old basis compared to CSS/SSS or is slope taken into account retrospectively and those rounds adjusted for that?

Many thanks


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			Can I ask those in the know, if someone moves clubs just before the WHS is implemented so some of their qualifying rounds are from their previous course, are these still taken into account when calculating their index, and if so are they treated on the old basis compared to CSS/SSS or is slope taken into account retrospectively and those rounds adjusted for that?

Many thanks
		
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I asked this question and it was confirmed the last 20 qualifying scores from whatever location will be used. In extreme there could be no scores from your new club that are used to calculate your HI.


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## fundy (Aug 2, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I asked this question and it was confirmed the last 20 qualifying scores from whatever location will be used. In extreme there could be no scores from your new club that are used to calculate your HI.
		
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ty sir


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## rulefan (Aug 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			Can I ask those in the know, if someone moves clubs just before the WHS is implemented so some of their qualifying rounds are from their previous course, are these still taken into account when calculating their index, and if so are they treated on the old basis compared to CSS/SSS or is slope taken into account retrospectively and those rounds adjusted for that?

Many thanks
		
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All scoring records are taken from the CDH database not from your club's software/database


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## jim8flog (Aug 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The WHS transition does not calculate a Course Handicap. It only calculates a Handicap Index.
What is the SSS/CR of the course/tees where most of your scores were recorded? Did it change when you were rated?
A CH relates to a specific set of tees on a specific course. But the effect of the transition conversion calculation is that exactly the same algorithm is applied to all players regardless of the course(s) and tees they may have played in the last two years.

Re the red highlight. How did you determine your HI? I wasn't aware that HIs were published yet.
		
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rulefan said:



			SSS, CSS, Gross, Handicap (integer), Net, Stableford Adjustment, Adjusted Gross, Par, Gross Differential, Net Differential.



I'm not sure what the relevance of the 95% is. It is only applied at the time of competition not as a result of the transition calculation.
		
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 If you follow the thread between the two of us you will read that we are both using a spreadsheet to monitor our projected H.I.s and the 'conversation' is about what is being shown up on the spreadsheets.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



*Given that under the WHS 36 points is now playing to handicap* does the lower handicap under the WHS reflect the change in what the Stableford points are currently when you play to handicap.

Where I play we have gone a little bit the other way. My WHS playing handicap remains unchanged compared to my current handicap but currently 37 points is playing to handicap.
		
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Is this true? I suspect it is not. There will be courses with very similar Slope values, but the CR very different in relation to par. For example, even at my home course Slope for yellow tees is 130, for white tees 133. So, the majority of golfers will play off the same handicap regardless of the tees they are playing off. However, the CR is 2.6 shots lower for the yellow tees (same par). So, are we saying 36 points is playing to handicap for both yellow and white tees?


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Is this true? I suspect it is not. There will be courses with very similar Slope values, but the CR very different in relation to par. For example, even at my home course Slope for yellow tees is 130, for white tees 133. So, the majority of golfers will play off the same handicap regardless of the tees they are playing off. However, the CR is 2.6 shots lower for the yellow tees (same par). So, are we saying 36 points is playing to handicap for both yellow and white tees?
		
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You are right at least in England.  This was explained clearly at the seminar I attended.  Within WHS there is the option to add/subtract the difference between Par and course rating to the Course Handicap,  but England Golf (or CONGU) has declined to use that option.


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## jim8flog (Aug 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Is this true? I suspect it is not. There will be courses with very similar Slope values, but the CR very different in relation to par. For example, even at my home course Slope for yellow tees is 130, for white tees 133. So, the majority of golfers will play off the same handicap regardless of the tees they are playing off. However, the CR is 2.6 shots lower for the yellow tees (same par). So, are we saying 36 points is playing to handicap for both yellow and white tees?
		
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That is my understanding from other threads and comments. 
It is what slope is supposed to be all about so wherever you play it is the same.

Ours are also very close 124 and 128 but like yours there is 1.2 difference in course rating and when the maths are done my course and playing handicaps are virtully the same with rounding. I would wonder if this is the same if the decimal points were different ie at the moment I am 10.9 and 10.5 (course) so it would not take much for there to be one shot difference.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			That is my understanding from other threads and comments.
It is what slope is supposed to be all about so wherever you play it is the same.

Ours are also very close 124 and 128 but like yours there is 1.2 difference in course rating and when the maths are done my course and playing handicaps are virtully the same with rounding. I would wonder if this is the same if the decimal points were different ie at the moment I am 10.9 and 10.5 (course) so it would not take much for there to be one shot difference.
		
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As doublebogey clarified, in England playing to 36 points is not playing to handicap under WHS, in similar way to now under current system. The Slope is not designed to make that happen, it is designed to account for the relative difference in difficulty of a course between lower and higher handicappers, not the absolute difference of the course. The way to take the absolute difference into account as well would have been, once the Course Handicap calculated from Slope, to then make a further adjustment based on the difference between Par and CR (i.e. if Par was 72 and CR was 70.0, subtract 2.0 from the course handicap (to make the new course handicap). Some handicap authorites will do this, but not England Golf


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## jim8flog (Aug 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			As doublebogey clarified, in England playing to 36 points is not playing to handicap under WHS, in similar way to now under current system. The Slope is not designed to make that happen, it is designed to account for the relative difference in difficulty of a course between lower and higher handicappers, not the absolute difference of the course. The way to take the absolute difference into account as well would have been, once the Course Handicap calculated from Slope, to then make a further adjustment based on the difference between Par and CR (i.e. if Par was 72 and CR was 70.0, subtract 2.0 from the course handicap (to make the new course handicap). Some handicap authorites will do this, but not England Golf
		
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Yes. Just been off to do some further reading and course rating is very much part of the calculation.

So meaculpa got that one wrong.


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## rulefan (Aug 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			As doublebogey clarified, in England playing to 36 points is not playing to handicap under WHS, in similar way to now under current system. The Slope is not designed to make that happen, it is designed to account for the relative difference in difficulty of a course between lower and higher handicappers, not the absolute difference of the course. The way to take the absolute difference into account as well would have been, once the Course Handicap calculated from Slope, to then make a further adjustment based on the difference between Par and CR (i.e. if Par was 72 and CR was 70.0, subtract 2.0 from the course handicap (to make the new course handicap). Some handicap authorites will do this, but not England Golf
		
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Yes. CONGU has agreed that Par tells you nothing about how well or badly you played as it has no concept of difficulty. A course of short par 4s has the same Par as a course of long par 4s.
They have decided that CR and CH are the significant figures and significantly less complicated to work with than adding or subtracting to or from your stableford score.


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2020)

Is there any central repository of course ratings and slopes calculated so far (noting that not all have been done)?

I did a quick run through my last 20 scores and chose the 8 with the best differentials and using course rating and slopes calculated for visiting US golfers, that would suggest my HI would be a shade lower than the current handicap.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Is there any central repository of course ratings and slopes calculated so far (noting that not all have been done)?

I did a quick run through my last 20 scores and chose the 8 with the best differentials and using course rating and slopes calculated for visiting US golfers, that would suggest my HI would be a shade lower than the current handicap.
		
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https://ncrdb.usga.org/


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



https://ncrdb.usga.org/

Click to expand...

Thanks. That is the data I googled. Wasn't sure if it was legit for here or not. So for my place, the numbers are:

Tees: White; Par: 72; Course Rating: 72.0; Bogey Rating: 98.3; Slope: 142; Front 9: 35.6/141; Back 9: 36.4/142

I am currently 9.8, but if I take the last 8 of 20, eliminating rounds where I didn't finish (e.g. sore knee after 9, walked in, saw a rule saying 10 holes had to completed), would drop to 8.2. If all last 20 included, ignoring those incomplete 8.9.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Thanks. That is the data I googled. Wasn't sure if it was legit for here or not. So for my place, the numbers are:

Tees: White; Par: 72; Course Rating: 72.0; Bogey Rating: 98.3; Slope: 142; Front 9: 35.6/141; Back 9: 36.4/142

I am currently 9.8, but if I take the last 8 or 20, eliminating rounds where I didn't finish (e.g. sore knee after 9, walked in), would drop to 8.2. If all last 20 included, ignoring those incomplete 8.9.
		
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Yes, I worked out a few dozen for members at my club, and generally they pretty much all come out lower than current handicap. But, as the Slope for most courses is quite a bit above 113, the Course Handicap will generally come out much closer to your current handicap (i.e. Your course handicap would be 10.3)


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, I worked out a few dozen for members at my club, and generally they pretty much all come out lower than current handicap. But, as the Slope for most courses is quite a bit above 113, the Course Handicap will generally come out much closer to your current handicap (i.e. Your course handicap would be 10.3)
		
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When you calculate them, do you exclude incomplete rounds?

So the HI is effectively the base handicap and then you multiply by slope/113 to get the course handicap for any course, including your own, you are playing at?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			When you calculate them, do you exclude incomplete rounds?

So the HI is effectively the base handicap and then you multiply by slope/113 to get the course handicap for any course, including your own, you are playing at?
		
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In terms of calculating Handicap Index, I presume this will be based on all rounds on your official record, so this would include incomplete rounds if they were included and got you 0.1 back. I'm also sure it won't include non-qualifying rounds on your record.

Course Handicap = Index x Slope / 113


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			In terms of calculating Handicap Index, I presume this will be based on all rounds on your official record, so this would include incomplete rounds if they were included and got you 0.1 back. I'm also sure it won't include non-qualifying rounds on your record.

Course Handicap = Index x Slope / 113
		
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Thanks. I am not sure how the club records incomplete. I suspect if they get a card back where the entire back 9 says NR for each hole, they may not know or care if someone stopped playing or just stopped marking. 

I thought I read somewhere that a card taken out for an 18 hole score only counted if 10+ holes were played. Maybe I made that up.


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## jim8flog (Aug 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			(e.g. sore knee after 9, walked in, *saw a rule saying 10 holes had to completed)*, would drop to 8.2. If all last 20 included, ignoring those incomplete 8.9.
		
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That only comes on to effect when the WHS comes in.


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## jim8flog (Aug 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			When you calculate them, do you exclude incomplete rounds?

So the HI is effectively the base handicap and then you multiply by slope/113 to get the course handicap for any course, including your own, you are playing at?
		
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 If you were treated as 0.1 increase for a NR then it would count as one of the 20. Realistically  the comp sec should have taken your card out of the system and withdrawn you as injured but it depends on whether you just NRd or informed them that you had been unable to continue due to injury.


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## Mozza14 (Aug 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The WHS transition does not calculate a Course Handicap. It only calculates a Handicap Index.
What is the SSS/CR of the course/tees where most of your scores were recorded? Did it change when you were rated?
A CH relates to a specific set of tees on a specific course. But the effect of the transition conversion calculation is that exactly the same algorithm is applied to all players regardless of the course(s) and tees they may have played in the last two years.

Re the red highlight. How did you determine your HI? I wasn't aware that HIs were published yet.
		
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I have calculated my Course Handicap after calculating my Handicap Index on my own spreadsheets using what I understand to be the calculation described by England Golf .

The SSS and Course Rating off White tees are 72 and 71.6 respectively. Yellow is 70 and 70.4 respectively. My own rounds are a mixture of the two with more white tees. The slope factors are 123 and 121. My course Handicap will be 4 from either tee at the moment whereas my Congu is currently 5.2.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			If you were treated as 0.1 increase for a NR then it would count as one of the 20. Realistically  the comp sec should have taken your card out of the system and withdrawn you as injured but it depends on whether you just NRd or informed them that you had been unable to continue due to injury.
		
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Didn't bother informing anybody. It is probably theoretical anyway. Currently, if those two rounds were excluded, then the last 20 would capture a pretty good round under CSS from last season and have a nice effect on the estimated WHS handicap index. But if I play a handful more rounds before Nov, that one will fall out of the 20 anyway.


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## tobybarker (Aug 5, 2020)

Can someone point me at a description of what the new system will mean to a member when they turn up to play? If I stay playing the same course from the same tees, does my handicap change depending on the weather, for example, which can make our links course much harder when the wind blows at 50mph..... And, what about visiting other clubs..... If the other course had been deemed "easier" than mine, Will my handicap need to be"looked up" somewhere on the day, and if so, where?

I'm sure these are stupid questions but trying to get answers from our committee is like trying to birdie the SI 1 hole...possible, on a good day, but usually a nightmare


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## Swango1980 (Aug 5, 2020)

tobybarker said:



			Can someone point me at a description of what the new system will mean to a member when they turn up to play? If I stay playing the same course from the same tees, does my handicap change depending on the weather, for example, which can make our links course much harder when the wind blows at 50mph..... And, what about visiting other clubs..... If the other course had been deemed "easier" than mine, Will my handicap need to be"looked up" somewhere on the day, and if so, where?

I'm sure these are stupid questions but trying to get answers from our committee is like trying to birdie the SI 1 hole...possible, on a good day, but usually a nightmare
		
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Your handicap won't change based on weather, no. But, the adjustment to it after that round could be weather based, if conditions were harder, much in the same way CSS does this now in competitions (albeit it is now PCC and worked out differently)

You will have an Index. Using a chart (or an app), you will convert this to a Course Handicap on whatever course you play (based on tees as well). Each club should have this chart in a convenient place to view. If you go to another club, they will have the same chart, but your Index may convert to a different Course Handicap.

Finally, once you have your course handicap, you need to convert this to a Playing Handicap. For example, medal / stableford will be 95% of Course Handicap, singles matchplay 100%. If in a competition, again I'd assume the computer / apps will do this for you. though not seen what they'll look like


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## nickjdavis (Aug 5, 2020)

When the WHS uses a players current historical records to calculate their handicap index (or for new players submitting cards to get a handicap index for the first time)....has it been agreed what very bad scores on holes will be adjusted down to?

Will it be...

Double par
A fixed amount of shots over par
Something else?

Obviously, once a player has an allocated handicap index the system uses nett double bogey to adjust blow up holes.

Currently under CONGU I believe that we are using double par.

It appears that the US have chosen to use par + 5 strokes (page 34)... 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

tobybarker said:



			Can someone point me at a description of what the new system will mean to a member when they turn up to play? If I stay playing the same course from the same tees, does my handicap change depending on the weather, for example, which can make our links course much harder when the wind blows at 50mph..... And, what about visiting other clubs..... If the other course had been deemed "easier" than mine, Will my handicap need to be"looked up" somewhere on the day, and if so, where?

I'm sure these are stupid questions but trying to get answers from our committee is like trying to birdie the SI 1 hole...possible, on a good day, but usually a nightmare
		
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 By now your club should have started to publish information on clubs notice boards and social media with posters from England Golf based upon the toolkit. However like us they be slightly behind the curve due to restrictions on clubhouses opening.

England Golf intend the clubs to drip feed the information with a new poster every fortnight. So far the posters only cover the outline basics and as far as course rating.

If you want to follow the progress of these posters 

https://www.englandgolf.org/whs/golfers/

Two of the most important parts is getting in as many comps or supplementary scores as you can before Nov 2nd so that you Handicap index reflects your current ability and remember to look up your Handicap Index on the day you will be playing it is something that will vary dependent on how many and when additional scores have been added to your handicap history.


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So few courses up here seem to have slope ratings.
		
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 Where is up here?


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			When the WHS uses a players current historical records to calculate their handicap index (or for new players submitting cards to get a handicap index for the first time)....has it been agreed what very bad scores on holes will be adjusted down to?

Will it be...

Double par
A fixed amount of shots over par
Something else?

Obviously, once a player has an allocated handicap index the system uses nett double bogey to adjust blow up holes.

Currently under CONGU I believe that we are using double par.

It appears that the US have chosen to use par + 5 strokes (page 34)...

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

Click to expand...

Par plus 5 strokes will be used for initial handicap. (from what has been said on here and documents linked to )

For ongoing scores

Hole scores may be adjusted:
 •By Net Double Bogey for a high hole score.
Or
•If all holes haven't been played, recording a Net Par on the holes not played.
 Exception: if less than 14 holes of an 18 hole round  have been played, net par + 1 stroke must be added to the first hole not played and net par to the remaining un-played holes
These adjustments are made using the Course Handicap and will be applied by the computer.


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Scotland
		
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  funny that because I understood that a lot of the Scottish courses already had slope ratings, before the WHS was considered, to cater for American visitors


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just based on using the link posted earlier, very few courses listed there.
		
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I understood that the way it works is you have to name the club to get the slop rating.

So I presume you are putting in the clubs you know, one by one.

From other related threads if they have not been done I understand they will be given interim slope ratings based upon SSS v Par.  I would expect Covid 19 has put them well behind schedule.


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## tobybarker (Aug 5, 2020)

Clear as mud


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## yandabrown (Aug 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I understood that the way it works is you have to name the club to get *the slop rating*.

So I presume you are putting in the clubs you know, one by one.

From other related threads if they have not been done I understand they will be given interim slope ratings based upon SSS v Par.  I would expect Covid 19 has put them well behind schedule.
		
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Are you looking at the correct database? Is that not the one for prisons 

There does seem to have been an improvement that you can now look for all courses in a county very easly for England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales which I am sure was not there previously. My course is still only rated for reds :-(


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Are you looking at the correct database? Is that not the one for prisons 

There does seem to have been an improvement that you can now look for all courses in a county very easly for England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales which I am sure was not there previously. My course is still only rated for reds :-(
		
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  My typing does get very sloppy at times

Thanks for the heads up I had not realised that 'state' brings up the counties and thereby all courses in the county that have been rated.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Par plus 5 strokes will be used for initial handicap. (from what has been said on here and documents linked to )

For ongoing scores

Hole scores may be adjusted:
•By Net Double Bogey for a high hole score.
Or
•If all holes haven't been played, recording a Net Par on the holes not played.
Exception: if less than 14 holes of an 18 hole round  have been played, net par + 1 stroke must be added to the first hole not played and net par to the remaining un-played holes
These adjustments are made using the Course Handicap and will be applied by the computer.
		
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cheers fella...i was aware of what happens once a player has a handicap...just don't remember seeing any official UK/England Golf originating information confirming what happens for initial handicap and couldn't remember if anything specific had been quoted here.

We are still waiting for our WHS manuals to be sent to the club (unless the club has received them and just filed them somewhere under "not sure what we need to do with this but it might be important")...hopefully they will arrive soon....I did tell the club if they arrived to let me know!!

Regarding the toolkit, I had a rough count up and reckon there are about 80 separate documents/videos/twitter/facebook communications you can download. The information is so high level that you could fit pretty much all of the useful information onto half a dozen pages...but even having read them the average member wouldn't be much the wiser as to what the WHS was all about. I'm producing my own training material (was going to do a ppt presentation before covid scuppered everything) in line with the schedule proposed in the toolkit.


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			cheers fella...i was aware of what happens once a player has a handicap...just don't remember seeing any official UK/England Golf originating information confirming what happens for initial handicap and couldn't remember if anything specific had been quoted here.

We are still waiting for our WHS manuals to be sent to the club (unless the club has received them and just filed them somewhere under "not sure what we need to do with this but it might be important")...hopefully they will arrive soon....I did tell the club if they arrived to let me know!!

Regarding the toolkit, I had a rough count up and reckon there are about 80 separate documents/videos/twitter/facebook communications you can download. The information is so high level that you could fit pretty much all of the useful information onto half a dozen pages...but even having read them the average member wouldn't be much the wiser as to what the WHS was all about. I'm producing my own training material (was going to do a ppt presentation before covid scuppered everything) in line with the schedule proposed in the toolkit.
		
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 I did the briefings for our club before the tool kit came out and got it all in to 10  pages of A4 spread across 5 briefs. 

There is an awful lot of stuff I feel players need to know that is not in the tool kit but the Captain and manager want to only release it slowly.

The biggest thing I notice about tool kit posters is that that take up a lot of space to say next to nothing really.

One of the guys on here has a copy of the draft CONGU manual hence knowing about par plus 5.


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			funny that because I understood that a lot of the Scottish courses already had slope ratings, before the WHS was considered, to cater for American visitors
		
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Scottish courses have had slope rating for 10 years or more but the USGA database may not have been updated yet.


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## IainP (Aug 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Scottish courses have had slope rating for 10 years or more but the USGA database may not have been updated yet.
		
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Do we know why a world system has to be US led, branded, defaulted?


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## jim8flog (Aug 7, 2020)

IainP said:



			Do we know why a world system has to be US led, branded, defaulted?
		
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USGA and The R&A have always had close links they (combined) have set the rules of playing for as along I have played.

The US and a lot of other countries worldwide have used the slope rating system for years. By comparison CONGU based handicapping is the system used in a fairly small number of countries.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			USGA and The R&A have always had close links they (combined) have set the rules of playing for as along I have played.

The US and a lot of other countries worldwide have used the slope rating system for years. By comparison CONGU based handicapping is the system used in a fairly small number of countries.
		
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And, to add to that, USA is the greatest country in the world in every aspect (based on information from Donald Trump). So, it makes sense.


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## IainP (Aug 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			USGA and The R&A have always had close links they (combined) have set the rules of playing for as along I have played.

The US and a lot of other countries worldwide have used the slope rating system for years. By comparison CONGU based handicapping is the system used in a fairly small number of countries.
		
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Yep know all that and don't disagree,  but doesn't seem to answer the question asked at all.

https://ncrdb.usga.org

There's even a shop!

It's a "National" database,  so guess we all just accept we're part of the nation of the US of A 😉


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2020)

IainP said:



			Do we know why a world system has to be US led, branded, defaulted?
		
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Because the 'USGA Course Rating System' and 'Slope System' are trade marks or service marks of the USGA. And the systems are copyrighted by the USGA. The ncrdb is part of the USGA and has simply absorbed the data from the rest of the world. Saving the need for everyone else to set up their own databases with interfaces between them.

The R&A has never previously been involved with handicapping. Apart from Canada who used the USGA handicapping system, the rest of the (R&A) world had 5 different handicapping systems run by various national authorities


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## IainP (Aug 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Because the 'USGA Course Rating System' and 'Slope System' are trade marks or service marks of the USGA. And the systems are copyrighted by the USGA*. The ncrdb is part of the USGA and has simply absorbed the data from the rest of the world. Saving the need for everyone else to set up their own databases with interfaces between them.

The R&A has never previously been involved with handicapping. Apart from Canada who used the USGA handicapping system, the rest of the (R&A) world had 5 different handicapping systems run by various national authorities
		
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Thanks. The bit in bold is perhaps contradicted by the below:

"The WHS is jointly governed worldwide by the USGA and The R&A and encompasses both the Rules of Handicapping and the Course Rating System (_formerly the USGA Course Rating and Slope System_)."

I guess in reality it comes down to money.

Just a real shame IMO they didn't take the opportunity for a bit of re-branding/re-skinning. Oh, and make it work properly on mobile devices.


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2020)

IainP said:



			Oh, and make it work properly on mobile devices.
		
Click to expand...

That of course is down to the software companies who made bids and won the licences to write the software for a single system specification. From what I hear all suppliers have different glitch manifestations. 
Neither the USGA not the R&A have had a hand in writing the conversion and interface software but by all accounts the WHS itself is running smoothly once it gets the data from the game management systems. Mobile devices etc do not have direct contact with the WHS database. But they certainly seem to have problems with competition management.


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## IainP (Aug 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That of course is down to the software companies who made bids and won the licences to write the software for a single system specification. From what I hear all suppliers have different glitch manifestations.
Neither the USGA not the R&A have had a hand in writing the conversion and interface software but by all accounts the WHS itself is running smoothly once it gets the data from the game management systems. Mobile devices etc do not have direct contact with the WHS database. But they certainly seem to have problems with competition management.
		
Click to expand...

To be clear I was referring to this:
https://ncrdb.usga.org/
Were you?


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2020)

IainP said:



			To be clear I was referring to this:
https://ncrdb.usga.org/
Were you?
		
Click to expand...

Not exclusively but taking that system specifically it was built specifically for US courses. It has only recently been extended to include the RoW. More recently it has been absorbed in the USGA web site and Trade Marked by them. It's therefore not unreasonable to use the USGA logo. The WHS itself is branded and logo-ed by both the R&A and USGA


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2020)

My club is running a zoom members briefing on WHS next week.  Should be interesting...and challenging for those doing the briefing.🤪


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## jim8flog (Sep 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My club is running a zoom members briefing on WHS next week.  Should be interesting...and challenging for those doing the briefing.🤪
		
Click to expand...

 We invited members to submit any queries via email - so far I have had just 3.  I do question if this is simply because loads are not reading all our briefing notices and our website briefings or if we are doing a good job.  We have not relied on the 'Know the Score' posters but have used the logo to produce our own, more detailed, posters.


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