# Gun activists.



## spongebob59 (Jan 20, 2020)

Just watched some of these nuters in I TV news.

the armoury the y have is scary.

threatening civil war if someone takes their toys away.

Wow.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 21, 2020)

I saw that as well. Utterly terrifying and a very good reason not to visit Virginia, ever. To have that mindset is something I just can not understand.


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## patricks148 (Jan 21, 2020)

thing that makes me laugh is they are only trying to limit to one purchase a month.... one guy when challenged, his  defence was more die from heart disease than guns


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## Robster59 (Jan 21, 2020)

It's a mental thing, built into the psyche and fuelled by testosterone.  The NRA has far too much power in US politics (as does religion but that's a separate discussion).
Still I think one of the best arguments against guns (warning, strong language) ....


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2020)

Yeah, Jim Jeffries stand up routine of the subject is first class


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 21, 2020)

Since they choose to NOT ammend their constitution, that's America for ya


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

I own eight firearms, none of the para-military variety, and I can tell you with confidence that there were some serious nutcases in Virginia last night.

Not my mates, folks.  I just liked to punch holes in paper targets when I was young.

However, UK citizens don't seem to understand that private ownership of firearms in the United States cannot be ended by statute.  
It's a constitutionally guaranteed right, would require a constitutional amendment, and in today's polarized America, any amendment of any kind is impossible. 
The government of the United States would literally have to be forcibly overthrown to take away private firearms ownership.  

We don't have that many stabbings and bludgeonings, though, so there's that.

I'm surprised that UK citizens feel so strongly about it, though.  It's a cultural thing. American grannies carry pistols in their shoulder bags.
That's just the way it is.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			We don't have that many stabbings and bludgeonings, though, so there's that.

I'm surprised that UK citizens feel so strongly about it, though.  It's a cultural thing. American grannies carry pistols in their shoulder bags.
That's just the way it is.
		
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I bet though that just 1 American city has more shootings than the whole of the UK has stabbings.
I also remember an article a few years ago, that said more New York policemen were shot by their own comrades than baddies.

Perhaps many in the UK feel this way because we see it as a stupid thing to allow, and something that could be changed if the will was there but won't be changed because it isn't.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I bet though that just 1 American city has more shootings than the whole of the UK has stabbings.
I also remember an article a few years ago, that said more New York policemen were shot by their own comrades than baddies.

Perhaps many in the UK feel this way because we see it as a stupid thing to allow, and something that could be changed if the will was there but won't be changed because it isn't.
		
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You could have as many privately owned firearms as we do, with far fewer people, and you'd still not have nearly the same number of shootings.
Our nation was populated largely by people unwelcome in the lands of their origin.  We are very diverse, and we don't all like one another.
Americans cap each others asses.  Sadly, it's just what we do.

We didn't leave your great commonwealth with horses and swords. Our nation was born with muskets, and we've been shooting ever since.
It's in our DNA.  No guns. No America.  

I'm no gun nut, and I've never aimed a weapon of mine at a living creature of any species.  Yet even I would find your guns laws inappropriate for a free nation. 
That's only because I think as an American.


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## Robster59 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I own eight firearms, none of the para-military variety, and I can tell you with confidence that there were some serious nutcases in Virginia last night.

Not my mates, folks.  I just liked to punch holes in paper targets when I was young.

However, UK citizens don't seem to understand that private ownership of firearms in the United States cannot be ended by statute.
It's a constitutionally guaranteed right, would require a constitutional amendment, and in today's polarized America, any amendment of any kind is impossible.
The government of the United States would literally have to be forcibly overthrown to take away private firearms ownership.

We don't have that many stabbings and bludgeonings, though, so there's that.

I'm surprised that UK citizens feel so strongly about it, though.  It's a cultural thing. American grannies carry pistols in their shoulder bags.
That's just the way it is.
		
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I suppose we feel that strongly about it as innocent people get gunned down BECAUSE the guns are readily accessible, and the solution?  More guns.  We had a mass shooting in Dunblane and made changes to our legislation as a result.
Article on legislation post Dunblane massacre
Not one bit of legislation changed in America as a result of the numerous massacres.
Lets get down to it.  People don't want to give up their guns because they like guns.  There just isn't the will to change and innocent people will continue to die and massacres will continue as well.

And a free nation is knowing that I have little chance of being shot on the street.  A policeman with a gun is a rare thing which is also good.  No "accidental" shootings.  I consider not having guns to be a greater freedom than having them.


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## patricks148 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I own eight firearms, none of the para-military variety, and I can tell you with confidence that there were some serious nutcases in Virginia last night.

Not my mates, folks.  I just liked to punch holes in paper targets when I was young.

However, UK citizens don't seem to understand that private ownership of firearms in the United States cannot be ended by statute. 
It's a constitutionally guaranteed right, would require a constitutional amendment, and in today's polarized America, any amendment of any kind is impossible.
The government of the United States would literally have to be forcibly overthrown to take away private firearms ownership. 

*We don't have that many stabbings and bludgeonings, though, so there's that*.

I'm surprised that UK citizens feel so strongly about it, though.  It's a cultural thing. American grannies carry pistols in their shoulder bags.
That's just the way it is.
		
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not sure thats true.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I suppose we feel that strongly about it as innocent people get gunned down BECAUSE the guns are readily accessible, and the solution?  More guns.  .... I consider not having guns to be a greater freedom than having them.
		
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That's a perfectly reasonable attitude.  
You're not American.  The right to bear arms was never your birthright by virtue of your nation's founding document.  

It would of course be difficult for you to understand.  But giving up rights that you consider to be birthrights is something you can probably understand.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2020)

The right to Bear Arms


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## Robster59 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			That's a perfectly reasonable attitude. 
You're not American.  The right to bear arms was never your birthright by virtue of your nation's founding document. 

It would of course be difficult for you to understand.  But giving up rights that you consider to be birthrights is something you can probably understand.
		
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That you would hold on to that so dearly, irrespective of the cost on human life, is something I find extremely hard to understand.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			That you would hold on to that so dearly irrespective of the cost on human life is something I find extremely hard to understand.
		
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It's just a shame the constitution cannot be, and has never been, amended ... hold on a minute...


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## patricks148 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			That's a perfectly reasonable attitude. 
You're not American.  The right to bear arms was never your birthright by virtue of your nation's founding document. 

It would of course be difficult for you to understand.  But giving up rights that you consider to be birthrights is something you can probably understand.
		
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shirley the whole point of that clause was whenit was written you were or had just fought a war of Indenpendance..... are you still doing that???


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

JamesR said:



			It's just a shame the constitution cannot be, and has never been, amended ... hold on a minute...
		
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Our Constitution has been amended many times.
It won't be amended for a long, long time, not because it's very difficult to do (which it is) but because Americans today reach consensus on nothing.

First, just proposing an amendment would require passage in both legislative chambers PLUS the president's signature. 
Then, two thirds of our state legislatures would have to agree to it 

Do you have any idea how impossible that would be right now?

Coastal America and Interior America might as well be two different continents, maybe planets.
We haven't been this polarized since our civil war in the 1860s.
It's a small miracle that we're not in civil was right now!

We certainly have enough civilian owned guns to do it.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			You could have as many privately owned firearms as we do, with far fewer people, and you'd still not have nearly the same number of shootings.
Our nation was populated largely by people unwelcome in the lands of their origin.  We are very diverse, and we don't all like one another.
*Americans cap each others asses.  Sadly, it's just what we do.*

We didn't leave your great commonwealth with horses and swords. Our nation was born with muskets, and we've been shooting ever since.
*It's in our DNA.  No guns. No America. *

I'm no gun nut, and I've never aimed a weapon of mine at a living creature of any species.  Yet even I would find your guns laws inappropriate for a free nation.
That's only because I think as an American.
		
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Interesting comments in bold above. Are these your arguments to continue to have the right to have guns? Because that's what American's do shoot each other? I guess that enforces the stereotype that Americans are idiots (which I would like to NOT believe by the way)?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess that enforces the stereotype that Americans are idiots (which I would like to NOT believe by the way)?
		
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I'm afraid that you can be quite comfortable in that belief/stereotype.
Did you notice that Donald Trump is our president?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm afraid that you can be quite comfortable in that belief/stereotype.
Did you notice that Donald Trump is our president?
		
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It didn't go unnoticed.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It didn't go unnoticed.
		
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He makes your boy Boris look like Churchill, I'm afraid.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			He makes your boy Boris look like Churchill, I'm afraid.
		
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I'm afraid that, so low have standards dropped, your idiot only makes our idiot look like Churchill the dog.
Yet I suspect the dog is house trained, and doesn't go around humping all the bitches it can get it's filthy little paws on!


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## 2blue (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			He makes your boy Boris look like Churchill, I'm afraid.
		
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Oh, No, no, no!! 
Boris, as a cowardly, lying, Tory-toad could never be compared to Churchill, what ever his short comings.


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## bobmac (Jan 21, 2020)

At least we don't shoot children (12 and 13 year old) for throwing snowballs  

If you really wanted to amend your lovely amendment and stop around 35,000 people being murdered per year, *about 95 people every day,* you could start with getting rid of the NRA.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 21, 2020)

This thread just goes to show how narrow minded and blinded by the gun issue Americans are 

Your birth right? Please 

Isn't it people's birth right not to be shot at school?

Oh it's ok we will just give teachers guns so they can stop the shootings 

Full of nutters.

Anyone who wants to own a gun should be the last person to be allowed to own a gun.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2020)

It’s the inalienable rights of all Yanks to be shot to death by an incestuous, red neck, hillbilly, cotton headed idiot with his full quota of weapons that he doesn’t need!


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## 2blue (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			That's a perfectly reasonable attitude. 
You're not American.  The right to bear arms was never your birthright by virtue of your nation's founding document. 

It would of course be difficult for you to understand.  But giving up rights that you consider to be birthrights is something you can probably understand.
		
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To be honest, it doesn't matter how you think about it....  it just does not make any sense....  which is clearly demonstrated by the number of senseless mass shootings you have.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

2blue said:



			To be honest, it doesn't matter how you think about it....  it just does not make any sense....  which is clearly demonstrated by the number of senseless mass shootings you have.
		
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Does the only possible other alternative, overthrowing the government of the United States, make more sense to you?
Absent the likelyhood of amendment, that's what it would take to undermine the basic American right to own firearms.


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## patricks148 (Jan 21, 2020)

if you are only interested in shooting paper targets, why do you need " the most powerful handgun in the world", or an auto pistol, why wouldn't an air pistol or spud gun suit that purpose???


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			You could have as many privately owned firearms as we do, with far fewer people, and you'd still not have nearly the same number of shootings.
Our nation was populated largely by people unwelcome in the lands of their origin.  We are very diverse, and we don't all like one another.
Americans cap each others asses.  Sadly, it's just what we do.

We didn't leave your great commonwealth with horses and swords. Our nation was born with muskets, and we've been shooting ever since.
It's in our DNA.  No guns. No America. 

I'm no gun nut, and I've never aimed a weapon of mine at a living creature of any species.  Yet even I would find your guns laws inappropriate for a free nation.
That's only because I think as an American.
		
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No gun nut but yet own 8 weapons that have the potential to cause serious harm 

The US keep the gun laws because of the amount of money the NRA - nothing to do with any “right” or DNA or any of that nonsense - it’s money. 

They can continue to kill each other but maybe one day they may wake up and realise that one school mass shooting is one too many - let alone having it on a weekly basis.

It’s a disgrace that the people of the USA allow these shooting to continue - idiots


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No gun nut but yet own 8 weapons that have the potential to cause serious harm

The US keep the gun laws because of the amount of money the NRA - nothing to do with any “right” or DNA or any of that nonsense - it’s money.

They can continue to kill each other but maybe one day they may wake up and realise that one school mass shooting is one too many - let alone having it on a weekly basis.

It’s a disgrace that the people of the USA allow these shooting to continue - idiots
		
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One school shooting is absolutely far too many...I couldn't agree more, with or without an American-style z in realize.
My God, can you imagine the deplorable person who wouldn't agree with that?

You are not a constitutional republic.
You do not understand the concept of a constitutional right and how next to impossible it is to take one away.


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## Beezerk (Jan 21, 2020)

You lot need a referendum on this 😉


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## bobmac (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			One school shooting is absolutely far too many...I couldn't agree more, with or without an American-style z in realize.
My God, can you imagine the deplorable person who wouldn't agree with that?

You are not a constitutional republic.
*You do not understand* the concept of a constitutional right and how next to impossible it is to take one away.
		
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I understand that every year in America, the number of people living in Leominster Massachusetts are murdered by guns.


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## patricks148 (Jan 21, 2020)

American gun owners will tell you more people die from natural causes  than guns... that puts it into perspective...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I understand that every year in America, the number of people living in Leominster Massachusetts are murdered by guns.
		
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How can I argue when I know that what you say is a disgraceful truth?
What I'm saying is that there is no plausible solution.

Americans are a violent lot and have a constitutional right to bear arms until they're convicted of a felony by a jury of their peers---and then it's too late.

I have never aimed one of my target rifles at a living creature and pray that I never will.


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## patricks148 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			How can I argue when I know that what you say is a disgraceful truth?
What I'm saying is that there is no plausible solution.

Americans are a violent lot and have a constitutional right to bear arms until they're convicted of a felony by a jury of their peers---and then it's too late.

I have never aimed one of my target rifles at a living creature and pray that I never will.
		
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as i said before, which you appear to be ignoring, if you only use your guns on paper targets, why not use an air rifle instead??


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

JamesR said:



			It’s the inalienable rights of all Yanks to be shot to death by an incestuous, red neck, hillbilly, cotton headed idiot with his full quota of weapons that he doesn’t need!
		
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Ah!  Somebody who understand the ridiculous and ludicrous truth.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			How can I argue when I know that what you say is a disgraceful truth?
*What I'm saying is that there is no plausible solution.*

Americans are a violent lot and have a constitutional right to bear arms until theyre convicted of a felony by a jury of their peers---and then it's too late.

I have never aimed one of my target rifles at a living creature and pray that I never will.
		
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yes there is - but gun hungry yanks won’t ever see it - just folllow the same Laws as most of the other civilised nations 

But then someone who owns 8 guns won’t see that


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			as i said before, which you appear to be ignoring, if you only use your guns on paper targets, why not use and air rifle instead??
		
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Because I bought the arms as a young man and never even once gave a thought of their being being a weapon with which to kill an animal, mush less a human being.

This was all well before the rash of gun violence we see today.
Well, we had the individual murders, of course, but not the mass shootings we regularly seem to have now.

I liked playing, with all regard to safety of course, with guns when I was a kid. I don't anymore, but I did then and don't find it unusual. It's American culture for better or worse.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			How can I argue when I know that what you say is a disgraceful truth?
What I'm saying is that there is no plausible solution.

Americans are a violent lot and have a constitutional right to bear arms until they're convicted of a felony by a jury of their peers---and then it's too late.

I have never aimed one of my target rifles at a living creature and pray that I never will.
		
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Or you could ditch said rifles and then you would never have the chance to aim at something living rather than putting faith in something as outdated as your gun laws


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			yes there is - but gun hungry yanks won’t ever see it - just folllow the same Laws as most of the other civilised nations

But then someone who owns 8 guns won’t see that
		
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Follow the same laws?  How many times have I explained that the right of an American to bear arms CANNOT BE CHANGED BY STATUTE.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Also, you good people are leaving the EU because you don't want to be governed by the laws of other nations.


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## patricks148 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Because I bought the arms as a young man and never even once gave a thought of their being being a weapon with which to kill an animal, mush less a human being.

This was all well before the rash of gun violence we see today.
Well, we had the individual murders, of course, but not the mass shootings we regularly seem to have now.

I liked playing, with all regard to safety of course, with guns when I was a kid. I don't anymore, but I did then and don't find it unusual. It's American culture for better or worse.
		
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nothing to stop you getting rid then and using an air rifle or spud gun to shoot at targets? 

you appear to like saying other Americans are red necks and like shooting each other, but you are not doing anything to help curb the owning of unnecessary guns?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could ditch said rifles and then you would never have the chance to aim at something living rather than putting faith in something as outdated as your gun laws
		
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They are worth thousands of dollars. Offer to buy them and I'll give them up. Seriously.
Otherwise, they're part of my kids' inheritance.


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## IainP (Jan 21, 2020)

Observation:  poster Y O B is not representing the whole of the USA. Seems to be just trying to give an opinion of someone who grew up there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Follow the same laws?  How many times have I explained that the right of an American to bear arms CANNOT BE CHANGED BY STATUTE.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Also, you good people are leaving the EU because you don't want to be governed by the laws of other nations.
		
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Laws can always be changed if the desire is there to change them 


Ye Olde Boomer said:



			They are worth thousands of dollars. Offer to buy them and I'll give them up. Seriously.
Otherwise, they're part of my kids' inheritance.
		
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And only in the US are guns part of “inheritance” 

Nothing stop you selling them and putting the money away


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

IainP said:



			Observation:  poster Y O B is not representing the whole of the USA. Seems to be just trying to give an opinion of someone who grew up there.
		
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By the same token, this poster is not empowered to change the constitution of the United States.
Further, I tend to blame deficient people for senseless violence, not inanimate objects like firearms.

Perhaps one must grow up in American culture to understand.  

I'm sure that you have your oddities too.
Imagine playing football with a round ball while wearing short pants!
In America, you'd get a red card for that. Or a yellow flag, anyway.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Laws can always be changed if the desire is there to change them

And only in the US are guns part of “inheritance”

Nothing stop you selling them and putting the money away
		
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Only a willing buyer, Phil.  Make me an offer!


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## USER1999 (Jan 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Laws can always be changed if the desire is there to change them

And only in the US are guns part of “inheritance”

Nothing stop you selling them and putting the money away
		
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Is it not safer to keep his guns, and not use them, than sell them to someone who might?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Is it not safer to keep his guns, and not use them, than sell them to someone who might?
		
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Not if they are being sold legally


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Is it not safer to keep his guns, and not use them, than sell them to someone who might?
		
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Thank you, Murph.

I'm one person and certainly cannot by myself change the culture into which I was born .
I do appreciate the sincere concern of my new friends on this forum.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			They are worth thousands of dollars. Offer to buy them and I'll give them up. Seriously.
Otherwise, they're part of my kids' inheritance.
		
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Thought it was your birth right? Just mere cash 

It's only money 

How much is a life worth


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Thought it was your birth right? Just mere cash

It's only money

How much is a life worth
		
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Depends on whose life I guess.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			By the same token, this poster is not empowered to change the constitution of the United States.
Further, I tend to blame deficient people for senseless violence, not inanimate objects like firearms.
		
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Imagine deficient people didn't have firearms. I wonder what the impact of that would be?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			thing that makes me laugh is they are only trying to limit to one purchase a month.... one guy when challenged, his  defence was more die from heart disease than guns

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Heard that and nearly had a heart attack laughing.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Heard that and nearly had a heart attack laughing.
		
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I don't really believe that you found that funny.
I'm sure, in fact, that you didn't.
I don't either.

I'm not a crazed cowboy.
I'm an older gentlemen who grew up in America and liked sporting arms when I was young.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I suppose we feel that strongly about it as innocent people get gunned down BECAUSE the guns are readily accessible, and the solution?  More guns.  We had a mass shooting in Dunblane and made changes to our legislation as a result.
Article on legislation post Dunblane massacre
Not one bit of legislation changed in America as a result of the numerous massacres.
Lets get down to it.  People don't want to give up their guns because they like guns.  There just isn't the will to change and innocent people will continue to die and massacres will continue as well.

And a free nation is knowing that I have little chance of being shot on the street.  *A policeman with a gun is a rare thing which is also good.  No "accidental" shootings.  *I consider not having guns to be a greater freedom than having them.
		
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your not looking hard enough. There are plenty of armed police and plenty more to come. The main reason is terrorism, However they are not sat down waiting for things to happen, they spend a lot of there time attending drug related “ incidents”.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

We're all repeating ourselves now.
You're all citizens of the UK.  Lovely nation in my view.
I grew up in America.  Much different place.  Some stuff better (even if it's just Las Vegas and the the food).  Some stuff worse.
That's the whole issue right there.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			He makes your boy Boris look like Churchill, I'm afraid.
		
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I assume you mean Churchill the insurance dog “ oooooh yes”. It’s. British joke 😁👍


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I'm afraid that, so low have standards dropped, your idiot only makes our idiot look like Churchill the dog.
Yet I suspect the dog is house trained, and doesn't go around humping all the bitches it can get it's filthy little paws on!
		
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😂 just caught up and wrote the same


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			We're all repeating ourselves now.
You're all citizens of the UK.  Lovely nation in my view.
I grew up in America.  Much different place.  Some stuff better (even if it's just Las Vegas and the the food).  Some stuff worse.
That's the whole issue right there.
		
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And that's just how it is, is it? No point in trying to make things better then, if that just the way it is.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			And that's just how it is, is it? No point in trying to make things better then, if that just the way it is.
		
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They could shoot all of the gun lobbyists...hoist them by their own petard as it were.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could ditch said rifles and then you would never have the chance to aim at something living rather than putting faith in something as outdated as your gun laws
		
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in essence I could not agree with this comment in any way shape or form. Guns are rife in American as YOB says,,grannies carry them in there bags. So YOB gets rid of every gun, so any tom dick or Harry can wander through his house with his firearm whilst YOB defends himself with what, Profanities. Me as much as I disagree with firearms in the general public. I can understand why folk in the US of A do have them. What I don’t understand is the fact that people are allowed to buy a firearm that can shoot hundreds of rounds a minute.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			And that's just how it is, is it? No point in trying to make things better then, if that just the way it is.
		
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I'm 73.  Nothing is going to get better in my remaining lifetime.
I live here. I know. We simply don't have the unity to change the constitution.
If you think that you're polarized over Brexit and Scottish independence, we're actually at each other's throats over here.
I'm watching impeachment proceedings right now.

The United States have, I believe, the oldest continuous, unchanged system of government in the world
Nothing lasts forever.
Perhaps the nation that replaces us will cultivate a different attitude.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			And that's just how it is, is it? No point in trying to make things better then, if that just the way it is.
		
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surely you have read his post on how hard it is to change said laws. Read up on how Trump changed his stance on guns


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## Imurg (Jan 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			in essence I could not agree with this comment in any way shape or form. Guns are rife in American as YOB says,,grannies carry them in there bags. So YOB gets rid of every gun, so any tom dick or Harry can wander through his house with his firearm whilst YOB defends himself with what, Profanities. .
		
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No, he uses the firearms he's got locked in a safe........


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			What I don’t understand is the fact that people are allowed to buy a firearm that can shoot hundreds of rounds a minute.
		
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And that is *not* protected by our constitution. We're not allowed to own missile launchers, by the same reasoning.

The candidates for which I vote are struggling to change that.
Military weapons have no place in civilian life.
They're disgraceful for "sport" and unnecessary for self-defense.
We certainly agree there.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm 73.  Nothing is going to get better in my remaining lifetime.
I live here. I know. We simply don't have the unity to change the constitution.
If you think that you're polarized over Brexit and Scottish independence, we're actually at each other's throats over here.
I'm watching impeachment proceedings right now.

The United States have, I believe, the oldest continuous, unchanged system of government in the world
Nothing lasts forever.
Perhaps the nation that replaces us will cultivate a different attitude.
		
Click to expand...

I'm from Northern Ireland. Things may never be perfect, but compared to the 70's and 80's, it's hard to believe how things have changed for the better.

But, if everyone's attitude was like yours, then I agree, nothing will ever change.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

Am sure there’s a difference between inheritance and cash, which YOB never mentioned. I have inherited me grandmas wobbly chopping board. Scrap wood to someone else, priceless to me.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			surely you have read his post on how hard it is to change said laws. Read up on how Trump changed his stance on guns
		
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Hard, yes. Does that simply make it pointless even trying?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm from Northern Ireland. Things may never be perfect, but compared to the 70's and 80's, it's hard to believe how things have changed for the better.

But, if everyone's attitude was like yours, then I agree, nothing will ever change.
		
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Your bakery trucks don't have tail gunners anymore?
What the hell kind of micks are you?
What's the Northern Island version of _The Commitments_, by the way?
Laughed my ass off with that one.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			No, he uses the firearms he's got locked in a safe........

Click to expand...

am not sure they would be, if grannies got a colt 45 in her handbag YOBs  AR -15 is at the side of his remote control 🤔👍


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hard, yes. Does that simply make it pointless even trying?
		
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not at all the recent tragic events in New Zealand prove that. But I suspect that there are folk in the USA making billions keeping the status quo as it is Unfortunately.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			am not sure they would be, if grannies got a colt 45 in her handbag YOBs  AR -15 is at the side of his remote control 🤔👍
		
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Something a Brit would say.
Do you know how heavy a Colt 45 is?
I'll bet you've never fired one....which is un-American!

Grannies pack small caliber Berettas.
And YOB owns no military weapons...honest.


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## Robster59 (Jan 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			your not looking hard enough. There are plenty of armed police and plenty more to come. The main reason is terrorism, However they are not sat down waiting for things to happen, they spend a lot of there time attending drug related “ incidents”.
		
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I said it's rare, I didn't say they don't exist.  Of course I see them around but not as a regular thing like you do in other countries.  Every bobby doesn't have a gun hanging on their hip.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Something a Brit would say.
Do you know how heavy a Colt 45 is?
I'll bet you've never fired one....which is un-American!

Grannies pack small caliber Berettas.
And YOB owns no military weapons...honest.
		
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I once fired a 44 magnum, a la Dirty Harry, at a gun range near Cairns, Queensland.
I really enjoyed it!
But I still don’t see why anyone needs one at home!


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## Robster59 (Jan 21, 2020)

It's easier to say things will never change rather than fighting for the change.  
As mentioned about Northern Ireland that took a lot of work, and brave people, and pragmatism to make a change. 
But, as I said, if people believe their rights are more important than peoples lives then it will never change. 
Just look at American action films.  Guns all over the place, it keeps it glamorised.  

For Las Vegas, you can keep it.  I went there but to me it was basically a shrine to people losing money.  Some friends went to a shooting range to fire some guns.  I went along but didn't partake.  I couldn't as a matter of principle.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I once fired a 44 magnum, a la Dirty Harry, at a gun range near Cairns, Queensland.
I really enjoyed it!
But I still don’t see why anyone needs one at home!
		
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Think before you post!
You need a a .44 magnum at home because you're surrounded by crazy Americans.


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## IanM (Jan 21, 2020)

The aussie nailed it.  

But of course not being American, he doesn't really understand.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



Think before you post!
You need a a .44 magnum at home because you're surrounded by crazy Americans.
		
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If they weren’t readily available for crooks they wouldn’t need to be available for anyone else.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 21, 2020)

JamesR said:



			If they weren’t readily available for crooks they wouldn’t need to be available for anyone else.
		
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True, I suppose...but it's not personally my fault.

George III let us play with guns and now it's a habit.


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## CliveW (Jan 21, 2020)

Does the Second Amendment not state "*A well regulated Malitia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." *Surely individuals are not "A well regulated Militia" ?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I said it's rare, I didn't say they don't exist.  Of course I see them around but not as a regular thing like you do in other countries.  Every bobby doesn't have a gun hanging on their hip.
		
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6,683 armed bobbies and rising.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Something a Brit would say.
Do you know how heavy a Colt 45 is?
I'll bet you've never fired one....which is un-American!

Grannies pack small caliber Berettas.
And YOB owns no military weapons...honest.
		
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the colt was said in jest, oddly enough I held an old Colt hand gun from the wild west just before Xmas. It weighed a ton and scared the bloody life outta me.


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## DaveR (Jan 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			We are very diverse, and we don't all like one another.
		
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According to Stormzy neither do we!


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## Robster59 (Jan 22, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			6,683 armed bobbies and rising.
		
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Out of over 123,000 that's about 5%


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## Swango1980 (Jan 22, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Out of over 123,000 that's about 5%
		
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I believe it is 100% in Northern Ireland


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## bobmac (Jan 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			How can I argue when I know that what you say is a disgraceful truth?
What I'm saying is that there is no plausible solution.

Americans are a violent lot and have a constitutional right to bear arms until they're convicted of a felony by a jury of their peers---and then it's too late.

I have never aimed one of my target rifles at a living creature and pray that I never will.
		
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Repeating yourself over and over again doesn't make you right.

I'd like to know why you think your great food is so good?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Repeating yourself over and over again doesn't make you right.

I'd like to know why you think your great food is so good?
		
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have you seen the size of some of them. It must be good. 😁 and makes a bigger target.


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## USER1999 (Jan 22, 2020)

You need a bigger calibre to bring down the larger athlete too.


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## patricks148 (Jan 22, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			have you seen the size of some of them. It must be good. 😁 and makes a bigger target.
		
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most of it is just swimming with grease or covered in plastic cheese... or both.... beer is crap too


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			most of it is just swimming with grease or covered in plastic cheese... or both.... beer is crap too
		
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Had to many lovely beers in Boston.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Repeating yourself over and over again doesn't make you right.

I'd like to know why you think your great food is so good?
		
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I'm not making any arguments in an attempt to be perceived as "right."

I'm making the explanation that unless my nation gets less polarized, which is nothing that appears imminent,
our constitution cannot be amended.  Unless our constitution is amended, nothing short of overthrowing the government of the United States can remove the right of Americans to own firearms.  It can't be done by mere statute in this country.

This isn't a "view."  This is an unassailable fact.

What's more, I don't believe that I'm so inarticulate  that the point I've been trying to make hasn't been quite easy to grasp.
On the contrary, I believe that I've expressed myself quite well on the subject.

Therefore, bobmac, my easy to reach conclusion is that you are being willfully obtuse on the subject.

It's a reasonably big world.  If you're so terrified about getting your ass capped in America, enjoy your holiday someplace else.  I enjoy visiting the UK, even though your cops are not armed to protect me should I be assaulted on the street. I'll accept the risk to enjoy your country.    



As for our food, well, American food and my dog are the things that I miss most when I'm abroad. 
[Good Lord, I'd make a pretty ugly broad.]

I had a great filet mignon in my hotel dining room and a pretty good Italian meal in a small bistro while in England.  Other that that, though, TGIF was the only other place that I could find  a decent meal.  Even Chinatown was disappointing. 

I'm not crazy about your restaurants, at least the ones that I've tried.  You can stumble blind drunk into any establishment in Manhattan or Las Vegas and get a fabulous meal.  I think that everybody favors the kind of food to which he/she is accustomed, though. Perhaps you don't like American food, and that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing....at least when you  get your cholesterol level checked.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2020)

Unfortunately YOB, your the first american on here and I think that sometimes people on here tar everyone with the same brush. As Americans think Manchester is a suburb of London, British people think that all Yanks are over weight, and walk around trigger happy Eating shite.
Ave been to Boston, Vegas, New York, Sausalito San Francisco, Hawaii and Florida.
Boston was fantastic, that’s down to the people and history.
New York, duo of pig ignorants people with a dump of a hotel called Waldorf Astoria.
Florida is a kids playground.
Vegas is an adults playground.
San Fran, expensive  and touristy.
Saussilito, stunningly beautiful.
Hawaii, still on the fence.
my point is that it is all different and am sure Ave only scratched the surface.

You don’t need to explain yourself as I have over priced rammel food both here and in the US OF A, and underpriced excellent food in both countries. Hmmmmmm  butties in Harvard.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 22, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Does the Second Amendment not state "*A well regulated Malitia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." *Surely individuals are not "A well regulated Militia" ?
		
Click to expand...

A "militia" in America is a private vigilante army not associated with the federal government. The fact that they're constitutionally legal in America is a much bigger problem than individual firearms ownership.  People who hunt geese for the table aren't usually a threat to anybody but the geese...and often not to them, either

[And most Americans prefer turkey to goose. We can hunt them as well, but since the supermarket has plenty of them, and the farm ones are far meatier than the wild ones, there's no need.]

Fortunately, they're ( the militias) mostly ceremonial.  Whenever they've tried to become otherwise, they transform into corpses or prison inmates quite rapidly upon encountering the legitimate National Guard. 

Here is another thing to be upset about our 2nd Amendment.  The right to bear arms isn't simply about hunting and self defense. It's about having the right to overthrow an illegitimate government should it arise. However, the government is not perceived to be illegitimate as long as the provisions of free elections and adherence to the amendable Constitution is maintained. 

This may have made sense in the musket era.  In the era of missile bearing drones, it's quite absurd to think that you'll defeat the United States military with your privately owned small arms.  Fortunately, it isn't necessary.  We go to our local polling places, much as you do, and change our government without a single shot being fired.


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## patricks148 (Jan 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			A "militia" in America is a private vigilante army not associated with the federal government. The fact that they're constitutionally legal in America is a much bigger problem than individual firearms ownership.  People who hunt geese for the table aren't usually a threat to anybody but the geese...and often not to them, either

[And most Americans prefer turkey to goose. We can hunt them as well, but since the supermarket has plenty of them, and the farm ones are far meatier than the wild ones, there's no need.]

Fortunately, they're ( the militias) mostly ceremonial.  Whenever they've tried to become otherwise, they transform into corpses or prison inmates quite rapidly upon encountering the legitimate National Guard. 

Here is another thing to be upset about our 2nd Amendment.  The right to bear arms isn't simply about hunting and self defense. It's about having the right to overthrow an illegitimate government should it arise. However, the government is not perceived to be illegitimate as long as the provisions of free elections and adherence to the Constitution is maintained. 

This may have made sense in the musket era.  In the era of missile bearing drones, it's quite absurd to think that you'll defeat the United States military with your privately owned small arms.  Fortunately, it isn't necessary.  We go to our local polling places, much as you do, and change our government without a single shot being fired.
		
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having the right to have or do some something doesn't mean you have to do it though does it?? ,

 for instance i believe you can shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow from the walls of York, or kill a Welshman in Hereford, doesn't mean any one does it though


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 22, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			having the right to have or do some something doesn't mean you have to do it though does it?? ,

for instance i believe you can shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow from the walls of York, or kill a Welshman in Hereford, doesn't mean any one does it though

Click to expand...

Nobody is required to own firearms in America. 
Our firearms laws can become much more sensible without being in non-compliance with our Constitution.

For example, WWI  Thompson sub-machine guns were  popular with American gangsters in the 1920s.
Private ownership of machine guns was abolished by statute and that passed constitutional  muster.
Unautherized possession of one of those brings LIFE imprisonment.

Municipalities by local ordinance can ban carrying handguns within the city without a hard-to-get license and that passes constitutional muster.
People with a license must have a very good reason to have it, and their weapons are registered with samples of the rifling marks on fired bullets and the firing pin mark on the spent cartridge on file.  If you legally have a handgun in Boston or New York, for example, and you use it in a crime, you're cooked.   Target pistol owners can bring their weapons back and forth from their homes to the ranges in a carrying case but cannot wear them concealed.

We had a ban against assault rifles which passed constitutional muster but which has been inexplicably reversed; that must be re-instated.

We have far too many non-sporting arms that can be removed from the population without offending constitutional provisions as long as the owners are remunerated upon surrendering them.  This *must* be done, but our Trumpanzees are preventing it.

None of the recent horrific mass murders were committed with deer rifles or shotguns. They were committed with assault weapons that can and should be banned.  The Constitution allows it and reasonable people demand it.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Nobody is required to own firearms in America.
Our firearms laws can become much more sensible without being in non-compliance with our Constitution.

For example, WWI  Thompson sub-machine guns were  popular with American gangsters in the 1920s.
Private ownership of machine guns was abolished by statute and that passed constitutional  muster.
Unautherized possession of one of those brings LIFE imprisonment.

Municipalities by local ordinance can ban carrying handguns within the city without a hard-to-get license and that passes constitutional muster.
People with a license must have a very good reason to have it, and their weapons are registered with samples of the rifling marks on fired bullets and the firing pin mark on the spent cartridge on file.  If you legally have a handgun in Boston or New York, for example, and you use it in a crime, you're cooked.   Target pistol owners can bring their weapons back and forth from their homes to the ranges in a carrying case but cannot wear them concealed.

We had a ban against assault rifles which passed constitutional muster but which has been inexplicably reversed; that must be re-instated.

We have far too many non-sporting arms that can be removed from the population without offending constitutional provisions as long as the owners are remunerated upon surrendering them.  This *must* be done, but our *Trumpanzees* are preventing it.

None of the recent horrific mass murders were committed with deer rifles or shotguns. They were committed with assault weapons that can and should be banned.  The Constitution allows it and reasonable people demand it.
		
Click to expand...

every days a schoolday 😁 lovely descriptive word.


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## Robster59 (Jan 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			And that is *not* protected by our constitution. We're not allowed to own missile launchers, by the same reasoning.

The candidates for which I vote are struggling to change that.
Military weapons have no place in civilian life.
They're disgraceful for "sport" and unnecessary for self-defense.
We certainly agree there.
		
Click to expand...

In fairness, I don't think you're condoning the massive gun ethos of the USA, I can see that you are saying that you don't agree with it but you can't see any way that is being changed. And, sadly, I think you're right.  I don't like guns, I hate the gun culture.  But.... the only President who tried to do anything about this was Obama and the NRA and their cronies made sure that was scuppered.  
As you say, there is no need for many of the guns that people buy and they couldn't even put together legislation to stop the sales of them.  
The trouble is, if everyone says "that's the way it is" then nothing will ever change.  They may not be banned totally but at least they could be better regulated.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 22, 2020)

To misquote 'every journey starts with a first step'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2020)

Why do sane Americans not just stop buying weapons?  Just because we have a right to do or own something, and we might *want *to do or own that thing - that does make it the *right *thing to do or own.


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why do sane Americans not just stop buying weapons?  Just because we have a right to do or own something, and we might *want *to do or own that thing - that does make it the *right *thing to do or own.
		
Click to expand...

Because it makes them more civilised, better to be shot in the head than stabbed or beaten up. 
Boomers words, not mine.


Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Here, everybody has firearms. Most grannies have pistols in their handbags. If things go badly, the worst thing that happens is a humane bullet in the brain.
That's one of the very few ways that we're more civilized than you. That and cooking.
		
Click to expand...


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## JamesR (Jan 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Because it makes them more civilised, better to be shot in the head than stabbed or beaten up.
Boomers words, not mine.
		
Click to expand...

Civilised?...they can’t even use knives and forks properly, they eat like children


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## patricks148 (Jan 23, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Nobody is required to own firearms in America.
Our firearms laws can become much more sensible without being in non-compliance with our Constitution.

For example, WWI  Thompson sub-machine guns were  popular with American gangsters in the 1920s.
Private ownership of machine guns was abolished by statute and that passed constitutional  muster.
Unautherized possession of one of those brings LIFE imprisonment.

Municipalities by local ordinance can ban carrying handguns within the city without a hard-to-get license and that passes constitutional muster.
People with a license must have a very good reason to have it, and their weapons are registered with samples of the rifling marks on fired bullets and the firing pin mark on the spent cartridge on file.  If you legally have a handgun in Boston or New York, for example, and you use it in a crime, you're cooked.   Target pistol owners can bring their weapons back and forth from their homes to the ranges in a carrying case but cannot wear them concealed.

We had a ban against assault rifles which passed constitutional muster but which has been inexplicably reversed; that must be re-instated.

We have far too many non-sporting arms that can be removed from the population without offending constitutional provisions as long as the owners are remunerated upon surrendering them.  This *must* be done, but our Trumpanzees are preventing it.

None of the recent horrific mass murders were committed with deer rifles or shotguns. They were committed with assault weapons that can and should be banned.  The Constitution allows it and reasonable people demand it.
		
Click to expand...

this all owning a gun and it beinga right must me a modern thing, 50 years ago i doubt handguns and automatic weapons were available to the man on the street, let alone all owning multiple weapons other than shotguns and rifles for hunting


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## harpo_72 (Jan 23, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Civilised?...they can’t even use knives and forks properly, they eat like children
		
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Harsh ... but yes in some states that is the case ! 
I think the only way to address the issue is to explain the terminal nature of these weapons knives, guns etc .. we are often led to believe you can recover from an injury from one of these weapons. Well the truth of the matter is, you are very lucky if you do. The human body is robust but these weapons are by design capable of destroying it.

What we don't have is an understanding of terminal .. dead... gone, no conversation tomorrow, total end .. those who cannot grasp that concept or who have and still set out to do it then by all means lump them all in a place and let them live the dream.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			this all owning a gun and it beinga right must me a modern thing, 50 years ago i doubt handguns and automatic weapons were available to the man on the street, let alone all owning multiple weapons other than shotguns and rifles for hunting
		
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Absolutely incorrect.  I purchased my handguns just about fifty years ago.  Civilians in America have owned handguns since the Colonial Era.
Fully automatic weapons have been illegal for decades.
Semi-automatic assault weapons for civilians  were banned in the 80s but brought back to legality by the Bush administration early this century.
I strongly disagree with civilian ownership of assault weapons which are inappropriate for sporting use and unnecessary for self- defense.

As for overall private ownership of firearms, it's a constitutionally protected right of any American never convicted of a violent felony.
The United States are not Europe.  We're more socially regressive to a fault, have less solidarity among our citizenry, and do fewer things collectively.
In many ways, America is still the Wild West.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 23, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Absolutely incorrect.  I purchased my handguns just about fifty years ago.  Civilians in America have owned handguns since the Colonial Era.
Fully automatic weapons have been illegal for decades.
Semi-automatic assault weapons for civilians  were banned in the 80s but brought back to legality by the Bush administration early this century.
I strongly disagree with civilian ownership of assault weapons which are inappropriate for sporting use and unnecessary for self- defense.

As for overall private ownership of firearms, it's a constitutionally protected right of any American never convicted of a violent felony.
The United States are not Europe.  We're more socially regressive to a fault, have less solidarity among our citizenry, and do fewer things collectively.
In many ways, America is still the Wild West.
		
Click to expand...

If you are ever in a position where you need to revolt against the government, fully automatic weapons will probably be your minimum requirement


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			If you are ever in a position where you need to revolt against the government, fully automatic weapons will probably be your minimum requirement 

Click to expand...

This isn't 1787 or whatever.  
The government has drones that fire missiles. 
There's no way to revolt against the government with small arms.  
That's what the ballot box is for. 
Unfortunately, we have too many people who use it stupidly. 
If they continue to do so, the ballot box may disappear in the new Fascist States of America.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 23, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			This isn't 1787 or whatever. 
The government has drones that fire missiles.
There's no way to revolt against the government with small arms. 
That's what the ballot box is for.
Unfortunately, we have too many people who use it stupidly.
If they continue to do so, the ballot box may disappear in the new Fascist States of America.

Click to expand...

That was my point. Either permit civilians heavy weaponry, including things like missile launchers, or just ban guns completely as they'd be bleeding useless. If the argument that guns are necessary for self defence, I wonder how the victims and families of victims feel about that over the last decade:

2010's
Number of Mass Shootings = 120
Dead = 762
Injured = 1205

Of course, that's just mass shootings (which comprise only 2% of gun deaths). Apparently the use of guns causes more than 110,000 deaths and injuries in the USA each year. To put that in perspective, over an 80 year life expectancy, nearly 3 out of every 100 people will be killed or injured by a gun. But of course, keep your guns and continue defending yourselves as successfully as you are.


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## USER1999 (Jan 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Apparently the use of guns causes more than 110,000 deaths and injuries in the USA each year. To put that in perspective, over an 80 year life expectancy, nearly 3 out of every 100 people will be killed or injured by a gun. But of course, keep your guns and continue defending yourselves as successfully as you are.
		
Click to expand...

Think how bad it would be without guns.


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## Robster59 (Jan 23, 2020)

I think we ought to give YOB a break.  I think it's clear from reading his messages he's not a fan of the gun laws or the way they are implemented or interpreted.  He's just trying to point out the real issue of trying to get the change the constitution is next to impossible as it's so entrenched in the American way of life.  
In Europe it's different to the USA. For me not having guns is a definite plus.  Many Americans don't see it that way.


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## CliveW (Jan 23, 2020)

Just to point out, we don't have a gun ban here in the UK. Our gun laws are strictly administered and policed by the authorities, however there are a large number of illegally held guns in the UK which tend to be the ones used in violent crime. Those of us who do have them, have to go through a rigorous process to own and use them by showing where and for what purpose we need them. We are restricted by the amount of ammunition we can keep depending on the circumstance of use, and the conditions of where they are kept is also strictly controlled. Hand guns were banned following the Dunblane Massacre which led to many target shooters to give up their guns or have to travel abroad to continue their sport. This included the Commonwealth teams. Finally, guns don't kill/maim, it is the people pointing them that do and controlling them is the best way to prevent that happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2020)

I'm wondering how many gun owners in the US have actually had to fire a gun in self defence...


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## Swango1980 (Jan 23, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Just to point out, we don't have a gun ban here in the UK. Our gun laws are strictly administered and policed by the authorities, however there are a large number of illegally held guns in the UK which tend to be the ones used in violent crime. Those of us who do have them, have to go through a rigorous process to own and use them by showing where and for what purpose we need them. We are restricted by the amount of ammunition we can keep depending on the circumstance of use, and the conditions of where they are kept is also strictly controlled. Hand guns were banned following the Dunblane Massacre which led to many target shooters to give up their guns or have to travel abroad to continue their sport. This included the Commonwealth teams. Finally, guns don't kill/maim, it is the people pointing them that do and controlling them is the best way to prevent that happening.
		
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Nuclear weapons don't kill or maim either, it is the people using them. So maybe it is unfair to stop countries having them!?


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## Old Skier (Jan 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That was my point. Either permit civilians heavy weaponry, including things like missile launchers, or just ban guns completely as they'd be bleeding useless. If the argument that guns are necessary for self defence, I wonder how the victims and families of victims feel about that over the last decade:

2010's
Number of Mass Shootings = 120
Dead = 762
Injured = 1205

Of course, that's just mass shootings (which comprise only 2% of gun deaths). Apparently the use of guns causes more than 110,000 deaths and injuries in the USA each year. To put that in perspective, over an 80 year life expectancy, nearly 3 out of every 100 people will be killed or injured by a gun. But of course, keep your guns and continue defending yourselves as successfully as you are.
		
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Live by the gun - die by the gun, simple. It's no wonder the police in the states shoot first and ask questions second, they have no idea if the idiot has a gun or not.

No reasonably sensible country needs it civilians walking around like Jesse James.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 23, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Absolutely incorrect.  I purchased my handguns just about fifty years ago.  Civilians in America have owned handguns since the Colonial Era.
Fully automatic weapons have been illegal for decades.
Semi-automatic assault weapons for civilians  were banned in the 80s but brought back to legality by the Bush administration early this century.
*I strongly disagree with civilian ownership of assault weapons which are inappropriate for sporting use and unnecessary for self- defense.*

As for overall private ownership of firearms, it's a constitutionally protected right of any American never convicted of a violent felony.
The United States are not Europe.  We're more socially regressive to a fault, have less solidarity among our citizenry, and do fewer things collectively.
In many ways, America is still the Wild West.
		
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Fair play to you YOB for giving us a pretty balanced view from stateside... The bit I have highlighted in your post is so bloody obvious its inconceivable to us that anyone could have a different view...but many of your fellow countrymen do, and we this side of the pond struggle with that. 

Re food, had a great meal in the revolving restaurant at the Stratosphere, but had a few duff ones elsewhere, but I’ve found that everywhere, I’ve lost count of the amount of poor food I’ve eaten in France and Italy over the last 20 years. Both cuisines are massively overrated.


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## patricks148 (Jan 23, 2020)

time for a a lighter note


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## Britishshooting (Feb 4, 2020)

I just think more checks, control of straw buyers etc. would resolve a lot of issues with youngsters at least coming up. Unfortunately too many crazies have access to guns already who wouldn't comply with tighter gun laws anyway and America has a gun epidemic whereas we have a knife issue. Unstable individuals would still find a way to access a gun and commit their crimes.

After all the UK's most used firearm in crime is the handgun. This can not be legally owned by people like me even though (I own a section 1 semi auto shotgun that holds 8 12 gauge cartridges and fires them off in less than 2 seconds. I can even run slugs through this which would blow a hole in almost anything. I own several .22lr semi automatic rifles effective under 100mm and high calibre rifles that shoot over 800m in range with high precision. (I live in the UK, yet can't own a handgun). I've never felt unsafe when at a PSG range for instance surrounded by people with rifles/shotguns and long barrel pistols. I feel much more vulnerable in some of the slums London has to offer put it that way.

Criminals/crazies/idiots will find a way, it just so happens in the UK the easiest way is via knifes whereas America is via guns. It's a cultural thing also. At least in the UK it's controlled a lot more and access is limited to those with a suitable background and valid reason to own such guns. Unfortunately it's a little too late in America and to a degree I do honestly feel that individuals that are open carrying etc. are possibly a big deterrent to cowards looking to shoot somewhere up.


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## IanM (Feb 4, 2020)

Goldie Lookin Chain... good lads from the 'Port.... one of their dads is a member at our golf club... their stuff is very funny, but lots of Newport references that you might miss.

.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Fair play to you YOB for giving us a pretty balanced view from stateside... The bit I have highlighted in your post is so bloody obvious its inconceivable to us that anyone could have a different view...but many of your fellow countrymen do, and we this side of the pond struggle with that.

Re food, had a great meal in the revolving restaurant at the Stratosphere, but had a few duff ones elsewhere, but I’ve found that everywhere, I’ve lost count of the amount of poor food I’ve eaten in France and Italy over the last 20 years. Both cuisines are massively overrated.
		
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We have access to some crazy guns over here, just more hoops to jump through and tighter security restrictions to stop them falling into the wrong hands.


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## Kellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			I just think more checks, control of straw buyers etc. would resolve a lot of issues with youngsters at least coming up. Unfortunately too many crazies have access to guns already who wouldn't comply with tighter gun laws anyway and America has a gun epidemic whereas we have a knife issue. Unstable individuals would still find a way to access a gun and commit their crimes.

After all the UK's most used firearm in crime is the handgun. This can not be legally owned by people like me even though (I own a section 1 semi auto shotgun that holds 8 12 gauge cartridges and fires them off in less than 2 seconds. I can even run slugs through this which would blow a hole in almost anything. I own several .22lr semi automatic rifles effective under 100mm and high calibre rifles that shoot over 800m in range with high precision. (I live in the UK, yet can't own a handgun). I've never felt unsafe when at a PSG range for instance surrounded by people with rifles/shotguns and long barrel pistols. I feel much more vulnerable in some of the slums London has to offer put it that way.

Criminals/crazies/idiots will find a way, it just so happens in the UK the easiest way is via knifes whereas America is via guns. It's a cultural thing also. At least in the UK it's controlled a lot more and access is limited to those with a suitable background and valid reason to own such guns. Unfortunately it's a little too late in America and to a degree I do honestly feel that individuals that are open carrying etc. are possibly a big deterrent to cowards looking to shoot somewhere up.
		
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And then there’s evidence which shows that countries that legalise gun ownership liberally have much worse issues.

Evidence > hunches.


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2020)

I'm trying to remember the last time I heard of a mass stabbing.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 4, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			And then there’s evidence which shows that countries that legalise gun ownership liberally have much worse issues.

Evidence > hunches.
		
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True in most cases I agree. Unfortunately I think it's just too late in the USA. Yes they can impose tighter restrictions and checks like the UK does for instance but it's going to have little impact now when there is so much free access to guns.

I'm in no way saying 'open carry' for instance is the right move and would improve the situation but a lot of these cowards target vulnerable areas and in cases that they don't they usually get gunned down by a member of the public before a mass murder occurs.

Some people that own guns in the UK complain of how hard it is to access guns but I do genuinely think we have it right and I'm not trying to say otherwise, I'm just playing devils advocate.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm trying to remember the last time I heard of a mass stabbing.
		
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June 2017 for one. Vehicle ramming and stabbing killed 8.


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			June 2017 for one. Vehicle ramming and stabbing killed 8.
		
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I'm sorry, I meant in the US


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 4, 2020)

I can understand your disgust with America allowing the private ownership of para-military weapons.
I share it.

As for self-defense weapons like handguns, I can understand laws against concealed carry but you should be able to have whatever you want in your own home.

But as an American, I cannot for the life of me understand the proscription of sporting arms in the UK.
If you can ban the ownership of hunting and target shooting arms, you can just as easily outlaw golf clubs and cricket bats as well.
That looks plain and simple to me. Obviously not to you, which is fine.

I can't see it as anything but an intrusion on individual rights.
This is clearly an issue where we won't agree, but that's irrelevant as we write our own laws, not one another's.


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## Kellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			but you should be able to have whatever you want in your own home.
		
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Like black slaves? That was legal in your country for a while. 

There was even a war that was in part waged over it with large swathes crying out for their right to own black people. But eventually most of society moved on. As they would over guns.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 4, 2020)

Slavery was an original sin, begun while an English colony, from which America has still not recovered and may never recover.
We were the last western nation to abolish it because we've always been a socially regressive nation.

It is very much the same as presently being the only developed nation on the planet without comprehensive socialized medicine. 
It's inevitable, but we'll be by a shameful margin the last to get there. That, not firearms, is our greater national disgrace.

The firearms thing is cultural.
I must understand how firearms ownership is not integral to UK culture.
I don't believe you will ever understand how it's integral to our culture.
That's OK. It's not something that you need to understand.

Some Americans don't understand the principle of monarchy in the Third Millennium, but it doesn't bother me.
HRM Bess seems like a nice lady.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 4, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Like black slaves? That was legal in your country for a while.

There was even a war that was in part waged over it with large swathes crying out for their right to own black people. But eventually most of society moved on. As they would over guns.
		
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It was also a fundamental aspect of the British Empire.

Quite a difference in my opinion than equal rights of the human race and outlawing of slavery than banning an inanimate object.

Guns wont ever be banned in the UK altogether never mind the US.


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## Kellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			It was also a fundamental aspect of the British Empire.

Quite a difference in my opinion than equal rights of the human race and outlawing of slavery than banning an inanimate object.

Guns wont ever be banned in the UK altogether never mind the US.
		
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Having guns statistically impinges in the rights of others - the right to not be shot.


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## Kellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Slavery was an original sin, begun while an English colony, from which America has still not recovered and may never recover.
We were the last western nation to abolish it because we've always been a socially regressive nation.

It is very much the same as presently being the only developed nation on the planet without comprehensive socialized medicine.
It's inevitable, but we'll be by a shameful margin the last to get there. That, not firearms, is our greater national disgrace.

The firearms thing is cultural.
I must understand how firearms ownership is not integral to UK culture.
I don't believe you will ever understand how it's integral to our culture.
That's OK. It's not something that you need to understand.

Some Americans don't understand the principle of monarchy in the Third Millennium, but it doesn't bother me.
HRM Bess seems like a nice lady.
		
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Yea the English have a pretty awful history. Maybe one day they’ll stop but Brexit suggests otherwise. 

The Queen and her family are leeches and hopefully their days are numbered and we’ll move towards a republic.


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## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yea the English have a pretty awful history. Maybe one day they’ll stop but Brexit suggests otherwise. 

The Queen and her family are leeches and hopefully their days are numbered and we’ll move towards a republic.
		
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And then we will elect Tony Blair (for example) as president, spend loads of cash on houses, offices, entourage, travel, hotels, protection, etc, and be no better off. Can't see it being any different.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 4, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Having guns statistically impinges in the rights of others - the right to not be shot.
		
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We have a "Bill of Rights," that is what we call the first ten amendments to our constitution.
We are constitutionally guaranteed the right to bear arms.
We are NOT constitutionally guaranteed the right to not be shot.

Each nation has its own laws and its own priorities.
I have plenty of problems with our priorities, but not having an NHS bothers me a lot more than private firearms ownership.
The overwhelming majority of American gun owners do not commit felonies, and it's already illegal for convicted violent felons to retain their firearms rights,


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 4, 2020)

This is not an issue on which we'll ever agree, 
but it must be an entertaining topic because we do keep on about it.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 4, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Having guns statistically impinges in the rights of others - the right to not be shot.
		
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Is this solely on a general populous level or inclusive of police/armies etc?

My guns in my possession would never harm another even somebody burgling my home. I could beat them with a 7 iron instead and be less likely to go down for manslaughter. Where does banning of inaminate objects stop though? Just guns or are knives included as thats the bigger issue here in the UK? Include the car as well vehicle ramming is on the up. Large crowds a car can cause a horrendous amount of casualties/fatalties.

Soon we'll be eating from sporks and travel solely by foot if we have to ban objects that could potentially be used to harm others. This is moreso on a UK Level but the hoops of gun ownership and cost of firearms is not worth the hassle to someone who wants to cause carnage. A rambo knife and car for ramming purposes would be the easiest route hence this being a very popular choice for terrorists...

You can apply your closing statement to any inaminate object by the way, even a pencil if you desired.


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## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2020)

In terms of personal protection, in my home I could stab a burglar to death with a knife, a sword, a grass hook, I could chop him with an axe, or a mattock, whack him with a hammer, a base ball bat, a pick axe handle.  I could be more inventive, and use a chisel, a screw driver, a spanner, or a wheel brace. Any of which could prove lethal.

All of these would probably see me end up in the clank.

My best bet is the rubber bar I use for my tennis elbow. It doesn't look much (it's pink for starters) but I could whack the crap out of someone without doing lasting damage. Weapon of choice.


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			In terms of personal protection, in my home I could stab a burglar to death with a knife, a sword, a grass hook, I could chop him with an axe, or a mattock, whack him with a hammer, a base ball bat, a pick axe handle.  I could be more inventive, and use a chisel, a screw driver, a spanner, or a wheel brace. Any of which could prove lethal.

All of these would probably see me end up in the clank.

My best bet is the rubber bar I use for my tennis elbow. It doesn't look much (it's pink for starters) but I could whack the crap out of someone without doing lasting damage. Weapon of choice.
		
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I've got this vision in my head now, Chris.....and it wont go away.......Pink? What were you thinking?


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2020)

So out of all the inanimate objects mentioned above which were designed for a purpose, the gun is the only one designed to kill


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## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I've got this vision in my head now, Chris.....and it wont go away.......Pink? What were you thinking?
		
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The colour represents the resistance level. My requirement was the pink one. It looks like a 14" sex toy.


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## Wolf (Feb 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So out of all the inanimate objects mentioned above which were designed for a purpose, the gun is the only one designed to kill
		
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Could argue Knives and swords were originally inveted to kill but only 1 out of 3 is technically in need if a license.. But thats just me being pedantic.. 

I see both sides of the argument in that guns laws 100% should be that they shouldn't be able to be carried uless used for sport or work but around that very stringent rules and requirements for usage, safety and storage.. But being devil's advocate its not the gun that kills thats merely the tool, its the person pulling the trigger that is the killer and why we need proper gun laws.


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## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So out of all the inanimate objects mentioned above which were designed for a purpose, the gun is the only one designed to kill
		
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I don't think my katana is designed for health benefits, but in general, yes, you are correct. That said, do any killing in your house, with whatever weapon, and you will be in trouble for it.


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			The colour represents the resistance level. My requirement was the pink one. It looks like a 14" sex toy.
		
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I need brain bleach....


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## Wolf (Feb 4, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			The colour represents the resistance level. My requirement was the pink one. It looks like a 14" sex toy.
		
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I think I've seen that video 😲


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 4, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			In terms of personal protection, in my home I could stab a burglar to death with a knife, a sword, a grass hook, I could chop him with an axe, or a mattock, whack him with a hammer, a base ball bat, a pick axe handle.  I could be more inventive, and use a chisel, a screw driver, a spanner, or a wheel brace. Any of which could prove lethal.

All of these would probably see me end up in the clank.

My best bet is the rubber bar I use for my tennis elbow. It doesn't look much (it's pink for starters) but I could whack the crap out of someone without doing lasting damage. Weapon of choice.
		
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Most American states allow lethal force against home invasion.
We could shoot a home invader between the eyes and not even have our firearm permanently confiscated, much less "end up in the clank."
We're a different nation with different values than the UK.

When it comes to socialized medicine, I like the UK's values.
Your firearms laws seem very oppressive to me, but we already know that we won't agree on tghis.


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## CliveW (Feb 4, 2020)

I'm sure I read that there are over 2 million guns in Switzerland with a population of just over 8 million.


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## patricks148 (Feb 4, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I'm sure I read that there are over 2 million guns in Switzerland with a population of just over 8 million.
		
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but they all belong to 4 yanks


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## pauljames87 (Feb 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Most American states allow lethal force against home invasion.
We could shoot a home invader between the eyes and not even have our firearm permanently confiscated, much less "end up in the clank."
We're a different nation with different values than the UK.

When it comes to socialized medicine, I like the UK's values.
Your firearms laws seem very oppressive to me, but we already know that we won't agree on tghis.
		
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Ah yes America the country you could shoot a home invader and get away with it but if you have an accident and can't afford your medical bill you could end up homeless 

Great nation


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## Sats (Feb 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I own eight firearms, none of the para-military variety, and I can tell you with confidence that there were some serious nutcases in Virginia last night.

Not my mates, folks.  I just liked to punch holes in paper targets when I was young.

However, UK citizens don't seem to understand that private ownership of firearms in the United States cannot be ended by statute. 
It's a constitutionally guaranteed right, would require a constitutional amendment, and in today's polarized America, any amendment of any kind is impossible.
The government of the United States would literally have to be forcibly overthrown to take away private firearms ownership. 

We don't have that many stabbings and bludgeonings, though, so there's that.

I'm surprised that UK citizens feel so strongly about it, though.  It's a cultural thing. American grannies carry pistols in their shoulder bags.
That's just the way it is.
		
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I personally don't trust most people with a pen let alone a firearm. The reason why there's not as many stabbings in the US is because guns are relatively easy to come by and guns are really difficult to come across in the UK - in particular ammunition. Whereas you can buy a knife anywhere.


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## Kellfire (Feb 5, 2020)

When your only continual defence is “But it’s legal, but it’s legal” you know you’re losing the argument. 

Sex with minors is legal in certainly countries. Is that ok?


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			When your only continual defence is “But it’s legal, but it’s legal” you know you’re losing the argument.

Sex with minors is legal in certainly countries. Is that ok?
		
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It doesn't matter if guns are made illegal the only people that are going to shoot people are criminal and don't care for the law aside from accidents. Lets say guns are somehow banned in America and an amnesty clears every gun out of public circulation?  A new culture would replace it, the UK has knife crime as there the most accessible and discreet weapon for criminals to possess without dropping a lot more money on a gun illegally obtained via black market etc.

The gun would just be replaced by another means, granted the knife is theoretically less capable of mass murder in schools etc. as the perpetrator could be battled off. The car or truck is a replacement that in my opinion is just as capable if not more capable than a gun to kill/maim masses of people.

Take the vegas shooter for example, 59 fatalties when opening fire into 22,000 people. A terrible number but lets say he didn't have guns... With a suitably kitted out car how many deaths 'could' there have been if he drove through the crowds? I dare say more to be honest.

We have guns in the UK and I honestly can't recall in recent years any suitably certified gun owner using it with criminal intentions, it's the illegal held guns that cause the problem. Handguns were banned post dunblane in 1997 so no law abiding citizen can access them in the uk. The handgun is still however the most used firearm in crime which speaks volumes. Unfortunately in the USA due to the amount of guns in cicrculation and lesser suitability checks guns are in a lot of wrong hands, but I don't see now how they can rectify this. An outright ban will just never happen but there is a big problem with people that have access to guns.

What I'm saying is the gun is clearly not the problem it's the process in which they are obtained which gives much more accessiblity to guns to those with criminal/murderous intentions.


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## Kellfire (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			It doesn't matter if guns are made illegal the only people that are going to shoot people are criminal and don't care for the law aside from accidents. Lets say guns are somehow banned in America and an amnesty clears every gun out of public circulation?  A new culture would replace it, the UK has knife crime as there the most accessible and discreet weapon for criminals to possess without dropping a lot more money on a gun illegally obtained via black market etc.

The gun would just be replaced by another means, granted the knife is theoretically less capable of mass murder in schools etc. as the perpetrator could be battled off. The car or truck is a replacement that in my opinion is just as capable if not more capable than a gun to kill/maim masses of people.

Take the vegas shooter for example, 59 fatalties when opening fire into 22,000 people. A terrible number but lets say he didn't have guns... With a suitably kitted out car how many deaths 'could' there have been if he drove through the crowds? I dare say more to be honest.

We have guns in the UK and I honestly can't recall in recent years any suitably certified gun owner using it with criminal intentions, it's the illegal held guns that cause the problem. Handguns were banned post dunblane in 1997 so no law abiding citizen can access them in the uk. The handgun is still however the most used firearm in crime which speaks volumes. Unfortunately in the USA due to the amount of guns in cicrculation and lesser suitability checks guns are in a lot of wrong hands, but I don't see now how they can rectify this. An outright ban will just never happen but there is a big problem with people that have access to guns.

What I'm saying is the gun is clearly not the problem it's the process in which they are obtained which gives much more accessiblity to guns to those with criminal/murderous intentions.
		
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I disagree almost entirely. You’re burying your head in the sand imo. The gun is the problem.


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## Robster59 (Feb 5, 2020)

W


Britishshooting said:



			It doesn't matter if guns are made illegal the only people that are going to shoot people are criminal and don't care for the law aside from accidents. Lets say guns are somehow banned in America and an amnesty clears every gun out of public circulation?  A new culture would replace it, the UK has knife crime as there the most accessible and discreet weapon for criminals to possess without dropping a lot more money on a gun illegally obtained via black market etc.

The gun would just be replaced by another means, granted the knife is theoretically less capable of mass murder in schools etc. as the perpetrator could be battled off. The car or truck is a replacement that in my opinion is just as capable if not more capable than a gun to kill/maim masses of people.

Take the vegas shooter for example, 59 fatalties when opening fire into 22,000 people. A terrible number but lets say he didn't have guns... With a suitably kitted out car how many deaths 'could' there have been if he drove through the crowds? I dare say more to be honest.

We have guns in the UK and *I honestly can't recall in recent years any suitably certified gun owner using it with criminal intentions*, it's the illegal held guns that cause the problem. Handguns were banned post dunblane in 1997 so no law abiding citizen can access them in the uk. The handgun is still however the most used firearm in crime which speaks volumes. Unfortunately in the USA due to the amount of guns in cicrculation and lesser suitability checks guns are in a lot of wrong hands, but I don't see now how they can rectify this. An outright ban will just never happen but there is a big problem with people that have access to guns.

What I'm saying is the gun is clearly not the problem it's the process in which they are obtained which gives much more accessiblity to guns to those with criminal/murderous intentions.
		
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Apart from this one you mean
Cumbria Massacre
Cumbria Shootings Wiki Page

There is an interesting article here from The Independent which shows how 4 countries have cut back dramatically on gun deaths. 
Independent Article

If America had the will, then they could try to do similar things.  In fact, Obama did try but the gun lobby and the good old boys seem to wield more power than the President in this matter.


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## Wolf (Feb 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I disagree almost entirely. You’re burying your head in the sand imo. The gun is the problem.
		
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Does the gun self load, self aim and fire...
The gun is the tool, the people and legislation are the problem.


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## Kellfire (Feb 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Does the gun self load, self aim and fire...
The gun is the tool, the people and legislation are the problem.
		
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 If people don’t have guns they have to make do with much less efficient means. I know who I’d fancy my chances with out of a lunatic with a knife and a lunatic with a gun.


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## Russ_D (Feb 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I disagree almost entirely. You’re burying your head in the sand imo. The gun is the problem.
		
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A welsh prophet once said "Guns dont kill people, Rappers do".
In all seriousness I dont think the gun is the problem. After all its an inanimate object. It only becomes a deadly weapon when picked up by a person. When an armed police officer shoots a terrorist or gunman they usually get praised for their swift actions but its obviously different when a nut job goes on a spree people talk about the gun itself, not the morals or mental state of the person using it.
 That said I think current UK gun laws do as much as they can. Criminals and the like will always find a way to get hold of illeagal weapons.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			W

Apart from this one you mean
Cumbria Massacre
Cumbria Shootings Wiki Page

There is an interesting article here from The Independent which shows how 4 countries have cut back dramatically on gun deaths.
Independent Article

If America had the will, then they could try to do similar things.  In fact, Obama did try but the gun lobby and the good old boys seem to wield more power than the President in this matter.
		
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That's ten years ago now which is why I hadn't included.  FAO checks etc. got tightened up further since then however. A lot more emphasis is now on the checks of mental state etc. which requires doctors sign off. Even those living with you are lightly scrutinised and are not to access your gun cabinet. That's the best thing about gun ownership! You can hide new purchases in one of the gun cabinets and she'll never know.

NRA fund a lot of campaigns behind the scenes to ensure they are not targeted. They don't want any regression on gun policies. A big problem there in itself.

This sums up the difference between UK and USA...

USA = Mass shooting no change to policy. Infact lets ban bump stucks which to be fair only completely mess up having any accuracy whatsoever.
UK  = Man with mental issues kills numerous people. (Tighten up checks on applicants to ensure they are of sound mental state.)


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I disagree almost entirely. You’re burying your head in the sand imo. The gun is the problem.
		
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Let me put it this way then. Have you been concerned with the accessibility to guns within the UK and believe we have a gun problem in the uk? Because we have access to guns with the relevant certification and I don't see much gun crime happening here it's all knife crime due to accessibility and culture.

Ban Knifes I say, they're the problem and your burying your head in the sand if you don't think we should all be eating from sporks with a lightly serrated edge for cutting purposes.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 5, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			A welsh prophet once said "Guns dont kill people, Rappers do".
*In all seriousness I dont think the gun is the problem. After all its an inanimate object.* It only becomes a deadly weapon when picked up by a person. When an armed police officer shoots a terrorist or gunman they usually get praised for their swift actions but its obviously different when a nut job goes on a spree people talk about the gun itself, not the morals or mental state of the person using it.
That said I think current UK gun laws do as much as they can. Criminals and the like will always find a way to get hold of illeagal weapons.
		
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I hate this argument. I've said it before, and will again. You could make the exact same argument for a nuclear weapon. You can say it is the people setting it off that are the problem, not the weapon itself. Personally, however, I'm glad massive global restrictions make it almost impossible for those mad men to get their hands on one.


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## bobmac (Feb 5, 2020)

Guns dont kill people, people kill people.
But, they can kill a lot more people if they have a gun and from a safe range.


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## Kellfire (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			Let me put it this way then. Have you been concerned with the accessibility to guns within the UK and believe we have a gun problem in the uk? Because we have access to guns with the relevant certification and I don't see much gun crime happening here it's all knife crime due to accessibility and culture.

Ban Knifes I say, they're the problem and your burying your head in the sand if you don't think we should all be eating from sporks with a lightly serrated edge for cutting purposes.
		
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 I apologise for trying to discuss this with you if that’s your argument.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I apologise for trying to discuss this with you if that’s your argument.
		
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It's not an argument, just a civil debate. I see it from both sides strangely as a gun owner. It's hardly a debate however when you don't engage and just make statements that have no relevance to the original discussion... Ignore the first portion of my post as you can't answer 'yes' and refer to my obviously sarcastic comment at the bottom to avoid a direct discussion.


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## Kellfire (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			It's not an argument, just a civil debate. I see it from both sides strangely as a gun owner. It's hardly a debate however when you don't engage and just make statements that have no relevance to the original discussion... Ignore the first portion of my post as you can't answer 'yes' and refer to my obviously sarcastic comment at the bottom to avoid a direct discussion.
		
Click to expand...

I think there’s something innately wrong with you if you think it’s ok to own a gun. 

I can’t make it any clearer than that.

If you want to obfuscate and bring up nonsense about kitchen knives then I’m done with the conversation.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			It doesn't matter if guns are made illegal the only people that are going to shoot people are criminal and don't care for the law aside from accidents. Lets say guns are somehow banned in America and an amnesty clears every gun out of public circulation?  A new culture would replace it, the UK has knife crime as there the most accessible and discreet weapon for criminals to possess without dropping a lot more money on a gun illegally obtained via black market etc.

The gun would just be replaced by another means, granted the knife is theoretically less capable of mass murder in schools etc. as the perpetrator could be battled off. The car or truck is a replacement that in my opinion is just as capable if not more capable than a gun to kill/maim masses of people.

*Take the vegas shooter for example, 59 fatalties when opening fire into 22,000 people. A terrible number but lets say he didn't have guns... With a suitably kitted out car how many deaths 'could' there have been if he drove through the crowds? I dare say more to be honest.*

We have guns in the UK and I honestly can't recall in recent years any suitably certified gun owner using it with criminal intentions, it's the illegal held guns that cause the problem. Handguns were banned post dunblane in 1997 so no law abiding citizen can access them in the uk. The handgun is still however the most used firearm in crime which speaks volumes. Unfortunately in the USA due to the amount of guns in cicrculation and lesser suitability checks guns are in a lot of wrong hands, but I don't see now how they can rectify this. An outright ban will just never happen but there is a big problem with people that have access to guns.

What I'm saying is the gun is clearly not the problem it's the process in which they are obtained which gives much more accessiblity to guns to those with criminal/murderous intentions.
		
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Re: the bold bit, in this instance it would mean he had to get much closer to the people he was killing something the gun gives the option of removing is the personification of the victim. Paddock shot from a 32nd story shootimg indiscriminately from a distance of some 6 or 7 hundred yards or more, he also wounded over 400 people. 
The gun made it possible for the targets to be far away and he could mentally disassociate himself from them as people whereas driving directly at people forces an up close view of your target. now that won't bother some psychos but it certainly gives options to others. take away the gun you take away one of the options and the few options of killing from distance.

That's my gripe, the gun doesn't kill people granted. but it makes the means a hell of a lot easier and less "personal".  
​


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Re: the bold bit, in this instance it would mean he had to get much closer to the people he was killing something the gun gives the option of removing is the personification of the victim. Paddock shot from a 32nd story shootimg indiscriminately from a distance of some 6 or 7 hundred yards or more, he also wounded over 400 people.
The gun made it possible for the targets to be far away and he could mentally disassociate himself from them as people whereas driving directly at people forces an up close view of your target. now that won't bother some psychos but it certainly gives options to others. take away the gun you take away one of the options and the few options of killing from distance.

That's my gripe, the gun doesn't kill people granted. but it makes the means a hell of a lot easier and less "personal".
​

Click to expand...

I agree with what your saying it's definitely less personal than 'stabbing' lets say.. unfortunately that doesn't stop it happening a lot. There are a lot of mindless people out there that just have no compassion at any level.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			I agree with what your saying it's definitely less personal than 'stabbing' lets say.. unfortunately that doesn't stop it happening a lot. There are a lot of mindless people out there that just have no compassion at any level.
		
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You are right, the distance a gun provides give opportunity to remove what ever little compassion a potential killer might have (save for the said compassionless nuts).


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## Swango1980 (Feb 5, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Re: the bold bit, in this instance it would mean he had to get much closer to the people he was killing something the gun gives the option of removing is the personification of the victim. Paddock shot from a 32nd story shootimg indiscriminately from a distance of some 6 or 7 hundred yards or more, he also wounded over 400 people.
The gun made it possible for the targets to be far away and he could mentally disassociate himself from them as people whereas driving directly at people forces an up close view of your target. now that won't bother some psychos but it certainly gives options to others. take away the gun you take away one of the options and the few options of killing from distance.

That's my gripe, the gun doesn't kill people granted. but it makes the means a hell of a lot easier and less "personal". 
​

Click to expand...

I'm on your side of the argument, and agree generally, especially in terms of the Vegas shooting. Although, it should be said, many shootings, and mass shootings, the gunner is very much up close and personal. Often, they'll shoot victims at point blank range. So, you could also argue that the victim is very much personified, much more than, say the Nice terror attack, where the driver is mowing down masses of people.

A gun offers that mad man a rapid method to take someone down, without any real form of defence. They can also take down multiple targets quickly (especially with semi-automated weapons). Banning them, you remove this option from them. Would they be as confident going and stabbing victims instead. Sometimes not, but even if they did, generally less damage would hopefully be done as they'd simply not be able to take people out as quickly, and victims might be able to defend themselves better, generally.

What is the purpose of a gun? It is to kill people (or neutralise people), or as equipment in sport. It is not used for travel, it is not used for food consumption. So, why not just ban them completely, and if you are involved in a sport that uses them, have them locked up strictly at the sporting club? I don't see what people should simply just be allowed to have them lying about their house, or in their handbag. Just seems incredible. If the argument is for protection, then is the same argument made for martial arts weapons such as Nunchucks , Swords or Brass Knuckles (no idea what the law is on things like that in USA)? If all these guns were not lying about in the first place, you wouldn't really need them for protection anyway. How many American civilians save their life, or the lives of other by shooting people? Weigh that up with how many American's shoot someone dead by accidentally think their life was in danger, but it wasn't? How many American's, especially kids, get killed by accidentally shooting themselves or each other when they see a gun lying about? How many Americans kill others with a gun, when they could never have got that gun in the first place had it not been available to them?

If I was a betting man, I would strongly favour betting that less people would die if guns were controlled, as in say the UK. Perhaps it is in the interest of the government to keep them available, both from a financial and voting perspective, but also a bit of population control?


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## bobmac (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			There are a lot of mindless people out there that just have no compassion at any level.
		
Click to expand...

And the easier is for them to get access to a gun, the easier is to kill more people.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm on your side of the argument, and agree generally, especially in terms of the Vegas shooting. Although, it should be said, many shootings, and mass shootings, the gunner is very much up close and personal. Often, they'll shoot victims at point blank range. So, you could also argue that the victim is very much personified, much more than, say the Nice terror attack, where the driver is mowing down masses of people.

A gun offers that mad man a rapid method to take someone down, without any real form of defence. They can also take down multiple targets quickly (especially with semi-automated weapons). Banning them, you remove this option from them. Would they be as confident going and stabbing victims instead. Sometimes not, but even if they did, generally less damage would hopefully be done as they'd simply not be able to take people out as quickly, and victims might be able to defend themselves better, generally.

What is the purpose of a gun? It is to kill people (or neutralise people), or as equipment in sport. It is not used for travel, it is not used for food consumption. So, why not just ban them completely, and if you are involved in a sport that uses them, have them locked up strictly at the sporting club? I don't see what people should simply just be allowed to have them lying about their house, or in their handbag. Just seems incredible. If the argument is for protection, then is the same argument made for martial arts weapons such as Nunchucks , Swords or Brass Knuckles (no idea what the law is on things like that in USA)? If all these guns were not lying about in the first place, you wouldn't really need them for protection anyway. How many American civilians save their life, or the lives of other by shooting people? Weigh that up with how many American's shoot someone dead by accidentally think their life was in danger, but it wasn't? How many American's, especially kids, get killed by accidentally shooting themselves or each other when they see a gun lying about? How many Americans kill others with a gun, when they could never have got that gun in the first place had it not been available to them?

If I was a betting man, I would strongly favour betting that less people would die if guns were controlled, as in say the UK. Perhaps it is in the interest of the government to keep them available, both from a financial and voting perspective, but also a bit of population control?
		
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I agree but my point is that the gun offers the _Opportunity_ to remove the personal aspect from it. Yes a car can be used to mow down random people indiscriminately but the driver must see and be connected to his action it can't be done from 600 yards away. 
As I say, my problem with guns is how they provide the option for people to disassociate from their actions directly. 

It's just my view though.


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## bobmac (Feb 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Swords or Brass Knuckles (no idea what the law is on things like that in USA)?
		
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I saw a programme on TV about an old guy crossing the border between America and Canada and he was stopped and searched.

They found a hand in the glove compartment which he was allowed to keep but his brass knuckle dusters were confiscated and destroyed.
Apparently they can give you a nasty bruise.


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I saw a programme on TV about an old guy crossing the border between America and Canada and he was stopped and searched.

They found a hand in the glove compartment which he was allowed to keep but his brass knuckle dusters were confiscated and destroyed.
Apparently they can give you a nasty bruise.
		
Click to expand...

did they not wonder where the rest of the body was? 

and was this his knuckle duster holder?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 5, 2020)

If this thread tells us anything, it tells us that cultural tradition matters.
I live in a lovely retirement community.
Our development immediately abuts a gun club with outdoor rifle range and shotgun trap shooting.
I don't shoot anymore--I play golf--but many if not most of my neighbors are members.
A few moved here specifically to join that club.

We hear pop...pop...pop...pop all day long.  We also hear birds chirping.  Nobody pays particular attention to either.

The British phobia of firearms not only doesn't broadly exist in America, but is impossible for many Americans to understand. 
Most of us think of our rifles and shotguns the same way we think of our golf clubs, our bowling balls, our tennis racquets, and your cricket bats.

Now, however, since joining this internet community, I understand how this simply won't compute with the typical citizen across the pond.
But even as I begin to understand your thoughts on the matter, it's obvious that many here will never understand mine.


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			If this thread tells us anything, it tells us that cultural tradition matters.
I live in a lovely retirement community.
Our development immediately abuts a gun club with outdoor rifle range and shotgun trap shooting.
I don't shoot anymore--I play golf--but many if not most of my neighbors are members.
A few moved here specifically to join that club.

We hear pop...pop...pop...pop all day long.  We also hear birds chirping.  Nobody pays particular attention to either.

The British phobia of firearms not only doesn't broadly exist in America, but is impossible for many Americans to understand.
Most of us think of our rifles and shotguns the same way we think of our golf clubs, our bowling balls, our tennis racquets, and your cricket bats.

Now, however, since joining this internet community, I understand how this simply won't compute with the typical citizen across the pond.
But even as I begin to understand your thoughts on the matter, it's obvious that many here will never understand mine.
		
Click to expand...

i know a fair few people with guns, Rifles and shotguns.... not one has a handgun... why they are for one thing and one thing only... same a assualt rifles and other Automatic weapons.. and its not for shooting at targets


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I think there’s something innately wrong with you if you think it’s ok to own a gun.

I can’t make it any clearer than that.

If you want to obfuscate and bring up nonsense about kitchen knives then I’m done with the conversation.
		
Click to expand...

You are a very serious guy!

This thread has put me in the mood for some claybashing, on my way now!


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## DaveR (Feb 5, 2020)

Guns are made for one purpose only, to kill.

I will never understand the American attitude towards guns. Every time I hear of a mass shooting I am filled with sadness for the victims but at the same time I find it hard to feel sorry for them. You guys have made your bed, now you have to lie in it.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 5, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Guns are made for one purpose only, to kill.
*
I will never understand the American attitude towards guns*..
		
Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying about culture differences impacting how we think.

Look, I understand how many of you don't care about traditional American values pertaining to firearms and believe that private ownership of same is wrong regardless of cultural tradition.

I have opinions like that myself.  I don't care, for example, that female genital mutilation is culturally accepted in some places. To me, it's obviously an obscenity regardless of how much culture is used as an excuse.

But being an American, I can't see any similarities between private firearms ownership and obscene practices that are defended in other places on the grounds of cultural values.
I just can't see it.  Non-military rifles and shotguns are sports equipment, handguns are personal protection devices, and I refuse to believe that being a sportsman willing to defend one's self is anything approaching a bad thing.


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## DaveR (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			That's what I'm saying about culture differences impacting how we think.

Look, I understand how many of you don't care about traditional American values pertaining to firearms and believe that private ownership of same is wrong regardless of cultural tradition.

I have opinions like that myself.  I don't care, for example, that female genital mutilation is culturally accepted in some places. To me, it's obviously an obscenity regardless of how much culture is used as an excuse.

But being an American, I can't see any similarities between private firearms ownership and obscene practices that are defended in other places on the grounds of cultural values.
I just can't see it.  Non-military rifles and shotguns are sports equipment, handguns are personal protection devices, and I refuse to believe that being a sportsman willing to defend one's self is anything approaching a bad thing.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have any intention of killing someone?


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			That's what I'm saying about culture differences impacting how we think.

Look, I understand how many of you don't care about traditional American values pertaining to firearms and believe that private ownership of same is wrong regardless of cultural tradition.

I have opinions like that myself.  I don't care, for example, that female genital mutilation is culturally accepted in some places. To me, it's obviously an obscenity regardless of how much culture is used as an excuse.

But being an American, I can't see any similarities between private firearms ownership and obscene practices that are defended in other places on the grounds of cultural values.
I just can't see it.  Non-military rifles and shotguns are sports equipment, handguns are personal protection devices, and I refuse to believe that being a sportsman willing to defend one's self is anything approaching a bad thing.
		
Click to expand...

few if any other country shares this opinion, and making out its a traditional thing...  love to know the % of the population that had guns 70 years ago... before handguns an auto weapons available.... very few id say so shoots this notion of Tradition and a way of life out the water


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 5, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Do you have any intention of killing someone?
		
Click to expand...

Of course not. 
I'm not a vegetarian, unfortunately, but If I had to kill my own food, I certainly would be.

I also have no expectation of somebody breaking into my home in the middle of the night.
But is someone did, here in America, I would not be arrested for shooting him/her in the head.
And after the investigation, my firearm would be returned to me.
And I agree with that as well.

I don't understand the British firearms phobia, but I do understand that cultural differences exist.

And patricks 148, American civilians have been armed to the teeth since we were an English colony.
It's not a new thing.
The new thing is owning para-military weapons, and I agree with abolishing private ownership of those.
Such a proscription would not violate our constitution.


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## DaveR (Feb 5, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Do you have any intention of killing someone?
		
Click to expand...




Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Of course not.
		
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Then there is no need for you to own a gun.

End of.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 5, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Then there is no need for you to own a gun.

End of.
		
Click to expand...

Absurd position in my view.  People will disagree, however.


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## DaveR (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Absurd position in my view.  People will disagree, however.
		
Click to expand...

Q)  Why do you have a gun?

A)  To defend myself because other people have guns

Solution    Do away with guns

But Americans are too stupid to see the solution. We currently have a problem with knives but rather than make them legal and everyone carries one the Govt are working on laws to clamp down on them.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 5, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Q)  Why do you have a gun?

A)  To defend myself because other people have guns

Solution    Do away with guns

But Americans are too stupid to see the solution.
		
Click to expand...

Visit America, go to a bar (ours are open well past 11PM, thankfully), and call somebody stupid for disagreeing with you on this issue.
But say goodbye to your loved ones before boarding at Heathrow.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Visit America, go to a bar (ours are open well past 11PM, thankfully), and call somebody stupid for disagreeing with you on this issue.
But say goodbye to your loved ones before boarding at Heathrow.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's more shocking that in a country full of guns and the twoodle you have spoken on the subject that someone hasnt shot you out of boredham


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## Swango1980 (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Visit America, go to a bar (ours are open well past 11PM, thankfully), and call somebody stupid for disagreeing with you on this issue.
But say goodbye to your loved ones before boarding at Heathrow.
		
Click to expand...

Well, that really is a horrific example if you are defending gun ownership.

Should Americans be able to own guns? 

Your Opinion: Yes, but don't get into a debate with someone in a pub as you might get shot.


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## Robster59 (Feb 5, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I think we ought to give YOB a break.  I think it's clear from reading his messages he's not a fan of the gun laws or the way they are implemented or interpreted.  He's just trying to point out the real issue of trying to get the change the constitution is next to impossible as it's so entrenched in the American way of life.
In Europe it's different to the USA. For me not having guns is a definite plus.  Many Americans don't see it that way.
		
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Come on guys, give Y.O.B a break.  See my comments above.  Don't keep having a go at him for what is an American cultural thing.
He's not a screaming gun addict, he's trying to explain the cultural differences between the USA and, well, most other parts of the world.
I am totally against guns, I scream at the TV when I see another shooting in the USA and nothing is done.  I have a relation in Texas who posted a video from the NRA about the wish for guns in the UK that was totally inaccurate, fabricated and basically tried to use fox hunting to say that the British wanted guns.  (Of course, they just called it hunting and never mentioned it was blokes in red coats riding on horses chasing a fox.  I mean, why confuse the issue with facts! ).  I put him right on this and he apologised.
In fact, if you want a laugh, have a look at some of their videos.  Especially about the UK.  The sad thing is, people will look at these and believe it.  
Put your cases forward but I think you're being unfair to put it all on to Y.O.B.


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Visit America, go to a bar (ours are open well past 11PM, thankfully), and call somebody stupid for disagreeing with you on this issue.
But say goodbye to your loved ones before boarding at Heathrow.
		
Click to expand...

or replace "a bar"  with a disagreement on anything... crossing the road, driving a car, upset with you fellow school pupils.... all this just sums up why you jokers should't have guns


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## bobmac (Feb 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			or replace "a bar"  with a disagreement on anything... crossing the road, driving a car, upset with you fellow school pupils.... all this just sums up why you jokers should't have guns
		
Click to expand...

https://globalnews.ca/news/6383624/kids-shot-throwing-snowballs/


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 5, 2020)

YOB 1 against 200 are poor odds, 2 if Slab is included. Different opinions, different cultures you will not agree. Why not move on Gents?


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## GreiginFife (Feb 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



https://globalnews.ca/news/6383624/kids-shot-throwing-snowballs/

Click to expand...

But, you know, it's like fine because he's permitted to carry the gun. Wouldn't have happened if these snowball loving kids had been throwing caps at asses instead of the white stuff.
Arm the kids, that's my solution.


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## hovis (Feb 5, 2020)

in 2017 there where 49,000 gun deaths. 26,000 of them where suicide.  so when you walk into a store to purchase a gun "statistically" your more likely to shoot yourself.

it also makes me laugh that Americans keep guns incase they want to overthrow the government.  so you have a desert Eagle or an m4 assault rifle and the government has tanks, missiles, drones and so on.


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## Robster59 (Feb 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



https://globalnews.ca/news/6383624/kids-shot-throwing-snowballs/

Click to expand...

And no matter what argument people put forward.  The easy availability of guns makes such an incident far too easy.  Yes, he could have driven the car at the kids (but if he's worried about snowballs damaging his car then he'd be even more worried by the damage a body would make), or he could get out and chase them with a knife blunt instrument but at least they have a fighting chance of running away.  
Here, it is someone who is pissed off, has a gun in his glovebox, thinks "I'll teach the little ............" and shoots irrespective of the consequence.  
Of course, if he didn't have easy access to a gun.....?


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Guns are made for one purpose only, to kill.

I will never understand the American attitude towards guns. Every time I hear of a mass shooting I am filled with sadness for the victims but at the same time I find it hard to feel sorry for them. You guys have made your bed, now you have to lie in it.
		
Click to expand...

That's a very skewed perspective. Especially with how much most of the students campaign for tighter gun restrictions.


DaveR said:



			Q)  Why do you have a gun?

A)  To defend myself because other people have guns

Solution    Do away with guns

But Americans are too stupid to see the solution. We currently have a problem with knives but rather than make them legal and everyone carries one the Govt are working on laws to clamp down on them.
		
Click to expand...

When you do away guns the only people you negatively impact are law abiding citizens. Criminals don’t respect such laws.

As I’ve said before the UK banned Hand guns Yet it’s still the most commonly used firearm in gun related crime.

Knives are currently a huge issue so laws are enforced to prevent carrying of knives in public, restrict sales of certain knifes etc.  
So why so much knife crime? Because criminals don’t respect the law so carry knives and stab others.

Now This is where I see both sides. I don’t think there should be an outright ban on guns you only strip away hobbies, interests and rights of law abiding citizens. I honestly think we have it right here, apply for guns, have suitable reason for ownership and pass the criteria to own the relevant firearms.

My point is there are millions of guns in the UK and there are barely and day to day murders or criminal activity with legally owned firearms. 

I get it some people just hate guns and that’s fine! But they won’t look at it from a neutral stand point it’s just ‘NO BAN GUNS’ which to me is on par with ‘ALL TEACHERS SHOULD BE ARMED’. Both are extreme viewpoints and there is middle ground which I believe we have found here in the UK.

My guns are securely stored, never used for criminal activity and allow me to partake in hobbies and interests with my own firearms. Why shouldn’t a law abiding citizen be able to do that because of fearmongering? The issue in USA is too much free access to guns the same issue we have with kids and knifes in this country it allows idiots/cowards to prey on the general public.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			That's a very skewed perspective. Especially with how much most of the students campaign for tighter gun restrictions.


When you do away guns the only people you negatively impact are law abiding citizens. Criminals don’t respect such laws.

As I’ve said before the UK banned Hand guns Yet it’s still the most commonly used firearm in gun related crime.

Knives are currently a huge issue so laws are enforced to prevent carrying of knives in public, restrict sales of certain knifes etc. 
So why so much knife crime? Because criminals don’t respect the law so carry knives and stab others.

Now This is where I see both sides. I don’t think there should be an outright ban on guns you only strip away hobbies, interests and rights of law abiding citizens. I honestly think we have it right here, apply for guns, have suitable reason for ownership and pass the criteria to own the relevant firearms.

My point is there are millions of guns in the UK and there are barely and day to day murders or criminal activity with legally owned firearms.

I get it some people just hate guns and that’s fine! But they won’t look at it from a neutral stand point it’s just ‘NO BAN GUNS’ which to me is on par with ‘ALL TEACHERS SHOULD BE ARMED’. Both are extreme viewpoints and there is middle ground which I believe we have found here in the UK.

My guns are securely stored, never used for criminal activity and allow me to partake in hobbies and interests with my own firearms. Why shouldn’t a law abiding citizen be able to do that because of fearmongering? The issue in USA is too much free access to guns the same issue we have with kids and knifes in this country it allows idiots/cowards to prey on the general public.
		
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The point of handguns being the most commonly used weapon in gun deaths in UK is completely irrelevant. Even if there was only 1 death, if it was a handgun, that point would still be true.

A better stat would be, compare how many Americans per 100,000 die by gun compared to same stat for UK. I believe the number is around 50 times higher for Americans. I wonder why?


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			in 2017 there where 49,000 gun deaths. *26,000 of them where suicide.  so when you walk into a store to purchase a gun "statistically" your more likely to shoot yourself.*

it also makes me laugh that Americans keep guns incase they want to overthrow the government.  so you have a desert Eagle or an m4 assault rifle and the government has tanks, missiles, drones and so on.
		
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 thats it you have convinced me Americans  should be allowed more guns


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## bobmac (Feb 5, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			The issue in USA is too much free access to guns the same issue we have with kids and knifes in this country it allows idiots/cowards to prey on the general public*.*

Click to expand...

It allows idiots/cowards to prey on the general public one at a time


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, that really is a horrific example if you are defending gun ownership.

Should Americans be able to own guns?

Your Opinion: Yes, but don't get into a debate with someone in a pub as you might get shot.
		
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I think we all understand hyperbole for the purpose of making a point.
It is not up to Brits to decide what parts of* our* constitution are unreasonable.
If you wish to willfully disrespect our culture and call us *"stupid"* in so doing, you cannot expect us to not take offense.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The point of handguns being the most commonly used weapon in gun deaths in UK is completely irrelevant. Even if there was only 1 death, if it was a handgun, that point would still be true.

A better stat would be, compare how many Americans per 100,000 die by gun compared to same stat for UK. I believe the number is around 50 times higher for Americans. I wonder why?
		
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I didn’t mention gun deaths in uk I said firearm related crime. What I’m saying is there are millions of legally held firearms in the UK. Yet the handgun which was banned is responsible for the vast majority of firearm crime. 

It shows that banning guns has no effect as the criminals will still find ways to access them.

it also shows that when a proper procedure is in place firearm ownership is not an issue!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I think we all understand hyperbole for the purpose of making a point.
It is not up to Brits to decide what parts of* our* constitution are unreasonable.
If you wish to willfully disrespect our culture and call us *"stupid"* in so doing, you cannot expect us to not take offense.
		
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Don’t take offence YOB, their are a lot of people on these boards that post stuff they wouldn’t dream of saying to your face...Your right it is a massive cultural difference, there is almost a zero tolerance of guns in this country...if you brandish even an imitation gun in public you will probably be shot dead by the police! (Someone got shot over here for carrying a chair leg that the police thought was a gun!) 
Anyway let’s move the conversation on... Abortion, what’s everyone’s take on it?😮😁


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## bobmac (Feb 6, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			If you wish to willfully disrespect our culture and call us *"stupid"* in so doing, you cannot expect us to not take offense.
		
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I remember, not long after you joined the forum, you told us you were more civilised than us Brits because you carried guns and you had better food than us.
This from a country which allows 40,000 people to die every year so you can keep your lovely guns and has an obesity rate of around 40%.
Not a good way to make a good first impression.


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## Russ_D (Feb 6, 2020)

Guns are part of the American fabric. Orginally people had guns not because they wanted them but because they needed one for survival. Remember, most of America was untamed and lawless way back when. The majority of people carried a gun for self defense, some for personal gains and a few to settle old scores and disputes (I'm distantly related to the Dewey family from Kansas. Google the Dewey-Berry fight, good insight on how they settle arguments!).

The vast majority of gun owning Americans are law abiding people who own a gun for home protection or use at the shooting range. Those that go out on mass shootings or random shootings must have underlying issues that cause them to snap.
I dont think, for the US, a full ban on firearms is the answer because it would not pass through congress. Stricter checks on potential buyers is a start but they need to be strict, involve medical and mental background checks. Even then it probably wont prevent gun crime but it's a start.


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## DaveR (Feb 6, 2020)

Britishshooting said:



			That's a very skewed perspective. Especially with how much most of the students campaign for tighter gun restrictions.


When you do away guns the only people you negatively impact are law abiding citizens. Criminals don’t respect such laws.

As I’ve said before the UK banned Hand guns Yet it’s still the most commonly used firearm in gun related crime.

Knives are currently a huge issue so laws are enforced to prevent carrying of knives in public, restrict sales of certain knifes etc. 
So why so much knife crime? Because criminals don’t respect the law so carry knives and stab others.

Now This is where I see both sides. I don’t think there should be an outright ban on guns you only strip away hobbies, interests and rights of law abiding citizens. I honestly think we have it right here, apply for guns, have suitable reason for ownership and pass the criteria to own the relevant firearms.

My point is there are millions of guns in the UK and there are barely and day to day murders or criminal activity with legally owned firearms.

I get it some people just hate guns and that’s fine! But they won’t look at it from a neutral stand point it’s just ‘NO BAN GUNS’ which to me is on par with ‘ALL TEACHERS SHOULD BE ARMED’. Both are extreme viewpoints and there is middle ground which I believe we have found here in the UK.

My guns are securely stored, never used for criminal activity and allow me to partake in hobbies and interests with my own firearms. Why shouldn’t a law abiding citizen be able to do that because of fearmongering? The issue in USA is too much free access to guns the same issue we have with kids and knifes in this country it allows idiots/cowards to prey on the general public.
		
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I get what you are saying but it isn't really the criminals that are the problem, how many mass shootings are down to them? Agree they will always find a way to have guns. The real problem is that mentally unstable members of the public can buy automatic rifles and go on the rampage. Remove that level of access and a significant portion of the problem is eradicated.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 6, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I remember, not long after you joined the forum, you told us you were more civilised than us Brits because you carried guns and you had better food than us.
This from a country which allows 40,000 people to die every year so you can keep your lovely guns and has an obesity rate of around 40%.
Not a good way to make a good first impression.
		
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1.  Quite frankly, I'd be quite surprised if only 40% of Americans are obese.
I'm sure we can do better than that.
Food is subjective.  I like American food and have the belly to prove it.  
Brits do not look malnourished,  so I'm sure your food is fine whether I like it or not.

2.  The US has no NHS and for that reason alone, we're not as civilized (with a z!) as the UK, regardless of anything I may have said in jest.
I have great affection for the UK.

3.  I totally agree that privately-owned military-like weapons is a terrible idea, and proscribing them would not violate our constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms.  

Culturally, however, Americans view sporting arms as sporting goods like golf clubs, bowling balls, tennis racquets, and cricket bats, 
and it would take a currently impossible constitutional amendment to ban or even regulate ownership of them.  

As for handguns other than target pistols, those are unregulated in most rural states and require very difficult-to-acquire licensing in densely populated ones.
I own a couple of them, but if they were to be banned, I'd have no problem giving them up provided I was fairly remunerated for them.

I don't know what to add to this, bobmac.  We're obviously not going to agree on everything.


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## bobmac (Feb 6, 2020)

I have 2 questions
1. Do you think its acceptable for people in America to go about their daily business carrying a handgun about their person?
2. If the number of hand guns in America was reduced, would the number of gun related deaths be reduced?



Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't know what to add to this, bobmac.  We're obviously not going to agree on everything.
		
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We're not going to agree on anything when it comes to guns.
They are designed, made, sold and bought for the sole purpose of shooting/killing.

I only hope the police catch that guy from Milwaukee before he shoots any more children


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## chiral (Feb 14, 2020)

I'm not sure if it's a 100% bad idea. On one hand, there are lots of crazy idiots who shouldn't be allowed to have guns. On the other hand, there are organizations like aaappp, I mean, sometimes you have to protect yourself from those who are meant to protect you. I'm not saying it's okay to shoot the police, I just want to say it's a crazy world and it's been a long time we should've given up on discussing things like that for real. It won't be okay under either outcome.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 7, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I have 2 questions
1. Do you think its acceptable for people in America to go about their daily business carrying a handgun about their person?
2. If the number of hand guns in America was reduced, would the number of gun related deaths be reduced?

We're not going to agree on anything when it comes to guns.
They are designed, made, sold and bought for the sole purpose of shooting/killing.

I only hope the police catch that guy from Milwaukee before he shoots any more children
		
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The vast majority of the murders committed with hand guns in the United States occur in urban areas where concealed weapon carrying is already illegal.  If people will break the law to murder people, why would they comply with other laws?

Private ownership of firearms is legal in the United States not by statute but rather by Constitutional specification.  In other words, one of the conditions of being American is the right to bear arms unless/until you're convicted of a violent felony. Dual citizens of the US/UK may own guns here and can't bring them there.  When in Rome...

I don't know what else I can add to that.  When I come to visit your shores and enjoy your hospitality, you may be assured that I'm unarmed and totally respectful of your local laws.


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## bobmac (Mar 8, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't know what else I can add to that.
		
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You could have tried answering the 2 yes or no questions I asked.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You could have tried answering the 2 yes or no questions I asked.
		
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Haha, you may not get that. Whether he answers yes or no, he doesn't really come out a "winner" in this particular discussion


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## Sats (Mar 8, 2020)

I don't see why people need guns in a civilian capacity.


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## drdel (Mar 8, 2020)

The family experience I've had of the USA is that life is not overshadowed by gun ownership. 

Nutters exist and in the UK guns are acquired by those whose walk that side of the 'line'. There is, I believe,  an increasing use of guns in UK domestic robberies leading bolstering the robbers courage that (weapons equipped) they are now happy to breaking in while householders are still home! My relatives in the USA do not live under such threats, often leaving their doors open and cars unlocked.

Criminal on both sides of the 'pond' can and do get weapons - we in the UK may like to pretend they don't exist but we no longer live in the 18th/19th century of the 'British' stiff upper lip and social respectability. Just as in the USA there are areas in the UK where crime and violence; no-go places where 'normal' people no longer visit and the police avoid. The respect and value of life in UK society has declined for all manner of reasons with consequences that 'innocent' citizens can feel the need for some protection. As in the UK you'll not get involved unless you look for it.

The USA has a society that permits the ownership of guns and I can see a justification of sorts for small calibre handguns. The UK does not agree with that freedom but that does not permit us to be pious and degenerate their society and citizens for the 'legal' choice they are allowed.

Guns exist we cannot put the genie back in the bottle we need to manage the situation; 'high horse' attitudes and banning these items will drive the issue further into the hand of factions and groups that live outside the law.


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## Sats (Mar 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			The family experience I've had of the USA is that life is not overshadowed by gun ownership.

Nutters exist and in the UK guns are acquired by those whose walk that side of the 'line'. There is, I believe,  an increasing use of guns in UK domestic robberies leading bolstering the robbers courage that (weapons equipped) they are now happy to breaking in while householders are still home! My relatives in the USA do not live under such threats, often leaving their doors open and cars unlocked.

Criminal on both sides of the 'pond' can and do get weapons - we in the UK may like to pretend they don't exist but we no longer live in the 18th/19th century of the 'British' stiff upper lip and social respectability. Just as in the USA there are areas in the UK where crime and violence; no-go places where 'normal' people no longer visit and the police avoid. The respect and value of life in UK society has declined for all manner of reasons with consequences that 'innocent' citizens can feel the need for some protection. As in the UK you'll not get involved unless you look for it.

The USA has a society that permits the ownership of guns and I can see a justification of sorts for small calibre handguns. The UK does not agree with that freedom but that does not permit us to be pious and degenerate their society and citizens for the 'legal' choice they are allowed.

Guns exist we cannot put the genie back in the bottle we need to manage the situation; 'high horse' attitudes and banning these items will drive the issue further into the hand of factions and groups that live outside the law.
		
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Are you in the police? If so where? Because I work in Brixton/Peckham and can tell you a lot about knife/gun crime. Without trying to insult you I think you're mis-informed about criminality in the UK. As far as avoiding areas by police that must be a county thing cause in london if there's a problem we go there, not stupidly, but If i was so scared to go to an area to do my job I better get a desk job somewhere else!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			The family experience I've had of the USA is that life is not overshadowed by gun ownership.

Nutters exist and in the UK guns are acquired by those whose walk that side of the 'line'. There is, I believe,  an increasing use of guns in UK domestic robberies leading bolstering the robbers courage that (weapons equipped) they are now happy to breaking in while householders are still home! My relatives in the USA do not live under such threats, often leaving their doors open and cars unlocked.

Criminal on both sides of the 'pond' can and do get weapons - we in the UK may like to pretend they don't exist but we no longer live in the 18th/19th century of the 'British' stiff upper lip and social respectability. Just as in the USA there are areas in the UK where crime and violence; no-go places where 'normal' people no longer visit and the police avoid. The respect and value of life in UK society has declined for all manner of reasons with consequences that 'innocent' citizens can feel the need for some protection. As in the UK you'll not get involved unless you look for it.

The USA has a society that permits the ownership of guns and I can see a justification of sorts for small calibre handguns. The UK does not agree with that freedom but that does not permit us to be pious and degenerate their society and citizens for the 'legal' choice they are allowed.

Guns exist we cannot put the genie back in the bottle we need to manage the situation; 'high horse' attitudes and banning these items will drive the issue further into the hand of factions and groups that live outside the law.
		
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Funny, us in the UK have to lock our doors, whilst in the USA families can happily leave their door unlocked.

Can you tell us why? Only reading between lines here, but are you saying it's because those lucky families in USA have guns themselves, which deters robbers?

Well, if we in the UK are kidding ourselves, I guess getting attacked someone with a gun in UK is much more likely than in the US.

However, I suspect that is not the case at all.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 8, 2020)

I would hazard a guess that there is very little actual gun crime in the UK, with their availability very limited to certain criminal elements with guns effects being very traceable after the event. They also make a lot of noise which attracts attention. Knives on the other hand are silent and in every house in the land.


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## Sats (Mar 8, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I would hazard a guess that there is very little actual gun crime in the UK, with their availability very limited to certain criminal elements with guns effects being very traceable after the event. They also make a lot of noise which attracts attention. Knives on the other hand are silent and in every house in the land.
		
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Exactly what I see. Guns are very difficult to come by as is ammunition, where as a kitchen knife is easily obtained and by it's very nature is for a different legal purpose.


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## drdel (Mar 8, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Funny, us in the UK have to lock our doors, whilst in the USA families can happily leave their door unlocked.

Can you tell us why? Only reading between lines here, but are you saying it's because those *lucky families in USA have guns themselves, which deters robbers*?* (1)*

Well, if we in the UK are kidding ourselves, I guess getting attacked someone *with a gun in UK is much more likely than in the US*.(2)

However, I suspect that is not the case at all.
		
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Not generalising; just an opinion...

1. I have UK friends whole have been robbed while watching TV with CCTV showing weaponised intruders. My USA relatives believe the common ownership does prevent household robbery

2. Never said that; only said the UK has areas where many UK citizens feel very uncomfortable and would avoid which is the same state-side.

Nowhere did I suggest the UK follow the USA. I merely tried to point out that the USA is not as gun-mad as its often portrayed and there is more balance than just a one sided stance against YOB's perspective. The average 'yank' does not fixate on the subject.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			1. I have UK friends whole have been robbed while watching TV with CCTV showing weaponised intruders. My USA relatives believe the common ownership does prevent household robbery

2. Never said that; only said the UK has areas where many UK citizens feel very uncomfortable and would avoid which is the same state-side.

Nowhere did I suggest the UK follow the USA. I merely tried to point out that the USA is not as gun-mad as its often portrayed and there is more balance than just a one sided stance against YOB's perspective. The average 'yank' does not fixate on the subject.
		
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I know you didn't say it, I was only seeking clarification before I went too far in reading between lines.

It is fair to say that, we in the UK will only hear about things when a big gun incident happens in US, so it is easy to think guns are at the forefront of everyone's mind. I'm from N Ireland, and when I moved to England 15 years ago, there were still people who assumed I was straight out of a war zone. I can only imagine what theyd think if I'd moved over in the 70's or 80's (forgetting fact I wasnt born in 70's  ).

In a UK forum however, the masses are always going to be dead against the US gun laws, as they simply dont seem to make sense. Nor do most of us feel we would want a gun ourselves. I would 100% not want a gun myself, for fear of someone getting it and accidentally firing it, for fear of a criminal getting it and using it against me or for fear of getting in a possible difficult situation, and using it on someone else abruptly and then finding out it was a misunderstanding. And, besides, I just dont feel I need that level of protection at home, as I feel it is significantly less likely a gun wielding robber will come after me, than if I was in US.

I'm sure the debate in a US forum would be much more evenly split.


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## bobmac (Mar 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			I merely tried to point out that the USA is not as gun-mad as its often portrayed
		
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For every 100 people in the US, there are 120.5 guns. (2017)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country 
So more guns than people.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			For every 100 people in the US, there are 120.5 guns. (2017)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
So more guns than people.
		
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But Bob, we know that for every 100 people in the UK, there must be in excess of 300 knives


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## drdel (Mar 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			For every 100 people in the US, there are 120.5 guns. (2017)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
So more guns than people.
		
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As I said just trying to explain the USA - UK society differences - not trying to 'justify'.

Note; 'civilised' Germany, France, Norway, Portugal have at least 4 time greater 'ownership' than UK yet we don't seem to 'preach' to these societies.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			As I said just trying to explain the USA - UK society differences - not trying to 'justify'.

Note; 'civilised' Germany, France, Norway, Portugal have at least 4 time greater 'ownership' than UK yet we don't seem to 'preach' to these societies.
		
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4 times? Is that similar to USA, or do they have more than 4 times the gun ownership than UK. If so, I suspect that is why those in the UK discuss guns in USA more than in the other countries you mention


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## Tashyboy (Mar 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			As I said just trying to explain the USA - UK society differences - not trying to 'justify'.

Note; 'civilised' Germany, France, Norway, Portugal have at least 4 time greater 'ownership' than UK yet we don't seem to 'preach' to these societies.
		
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it always helps to of seen both sides of the coin to be able to formulate an opinion. Post 208 explains you have had an experience of family life both here and In the USA. Hence your comments. And as you mention, there’s more of a fixation with guns in America from us Brits than the Americans that actually own them.I think it’s fair to say that most folk don’t like the thought of guns on our streets. Yes they are no where near the levels of America in the sense of nigh on everyone has one, but they are on the streets and used by drug gangs. So how does Plod protect himself from that threat. By arming himself. The Police are now armed to the hilt initially to combat any Terrorist threat. After that it’s the drug criminal fraternity that firearms are used for. 
my Daughter was explaining the firearms that they carry. Hand pistol,and semi automatic ( machine gun). Over the last couple of years a terrorists weapon of choice has been a 20 ton truck to mow down carnival and event going pedestrians. The answer to that is to carry bigger guns that will put a massive hole through an engine block to stop said truck. It’s a reactionary answer to an ever changing world in which unfortunately guns are here to stay. More so in America.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 8, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Haha, you may not get that. Whether he answers yes or no, he doesn't really come out a "winner" in this particular discussion
		
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I don't know the answers to those questions, but it doesn't matter.
The right to bear arms is a constitutionally specified right for any American never convicted of a violent felony.
There's nothing to be done about it.
The method for amending the Constitution is inapplicable in the absence of near universal demand for it---which very clearly doesn't exist.
I'm OK with it. Some don't like it. But it's fact and not about to be changed.

Consider it a part of the excitement of visiting the USA.  
There is always that very small likelihood of getting shot between the eyes.
And think of the relief when you arrive back at home.

All I have to think about when I come there is to "mind the gap!"


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## IainP (Dec 6, 2021)

There's been plenty of debate about how the internet has made it easier to "play to your own crowd". This one just seems so odd to me though 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59543735


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2021)

IainP said:



			There's been plenty of debate about how the internet has made it easier to "play to your own crowd". This one just seems so odd to me though
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59543735

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There are times when you just shake your head in disbelief


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## Robster59 (Dec 6, 2021)

IainP said:



			There's been plenty of debate about how the internet has made it easier to "play to your own crowd". This one just seems so odd to me though
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59543735

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"Peace and Goodwill to all men" my backside.
What this does show is just how entrenched the gun mentality is in the USA.  And what is equally sad is that there will as many people defending him in the States as there will be condemning him.


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			"Peace and Goodwill to all men" my backside.
What this does show is just how entrenched the gun mentality is in the USA.  And what is equally sad is that there will as many people defending him in the States as there will be condemning him.
		
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You mean like congresswoman Lauren nut-job Bobert for one


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## patricks148 (Dec 6, 2021)

There's something very wrong with a country that a 18 year old can't buy a can of beer,  but can own an automatic weapon.


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## Robster59 (Dec 6, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			There's something very wrong with a country that a 18 year old can't buy a can of beer,  but can own an automatic weapon.
		
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Mind you, imagine the ramifications if both were allowed!


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			There's something very wrong with a country that a 18 year old can't buy a can of beer,  but can own an automatic weapon.
		
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Just don't complain about the food


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2021)

There's something about this that reiterates my desire to not go to the States but I can't quite put my finger on it...


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Imurg said:



			There's something about this that reiterates my desire to not go to the States but I can't quite put my finger on it...

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Taken from the website of ''Shooters Grill''.....

_That is our place: Happy, safe and fun. We’re armed and ready to feed you_


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## IanM (Dec 6, 2021)

I've travelled round lots of the USA and the only time I raised a "gun-related" eye was on the highway going up to Sawgrass when I stopped for "gas."  You had to pay before you filled up, the forecourt attendant was behind the mother of all bandit screens and had a big rife on the desk.   No pilfering a packet of wine gums from there then!     On a rest day we were going to visit Jacksonville, but there had been a bit of shooting the night before, so we game it a miss.  Weird, as the St Augustine / Sawgrass areas was wonderful, and loads safer the the wrong end of London. 

But, talk guns on the golf course and they can't believe we don't carry them!


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Taken from the website of ''Shooters Grill''.....

_That is our place: Happy, safe and fun. We’re armed and ready to feed you_

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Check out the name of the town too!


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## Robster59 (Dec 6, 2021)

IanM said:



			I've travelled round lots of the USA and the only time I raised a "gun-related" eye was on the highway going up to Sawgrass when I stopped for "gas."  You had to pay before you filled up, the forecourt attendant was behind the mother of all bandit screens and had a big rife on the desk.   No pilfering a packet of wine gums from there then!     On a rest day we were going to visit Jacksonville, but there had been a bit of shooting the night before, so we game it a miss.  Weird, as the St Augustine / Sawgrass areas was wonderful, and loads safer the the wrong end of London.

*But, talk guns on the golf course and they can't believe we don't carry them!* 

Click to expand...

I think they need to realise that most countries in the world are amazed that they do.  But as has been said before in this thread, it is too much ingrained in the culture and will never change.  Sad for all those people who have died from guns and will continue to do so in the future.  I have never understood why the NRA held such a power in the USA.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I think they need to realise that most countries in the world are amazed that they do.  But as has been said before in this thread, it is too much ingrained in the culture and will never change.  Sad for all those people who have died from guns and will continue to do so in the future.  *I have never understood why the NRA held such a power in the USA.*

Click to expand...

Partly money, but I suspect mainly because many US citizens simply adore their guns. I guess many feel they need guns to protect themselves against other citizens who have guns, and don't accept that if they get their guns taken away, so will the bad guys. Still, it is surprising in a country where the citizens seem to also love their statistics (judging by occasionally watching US sports), statistics that look pretty terrible for the US in terms of gun crime when comparing to many other countries.

It probably has a huge knock on effect in the policing in the US as well. How many officers kill unarmed civilians due to racism (which has been topical over the last year or so), and how many do it because they are that on edge that the civilian has a gun and instinct tells them "kill or be killed"?


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I think they need to realise that most countries in the world are amazed that they do.  But as has been said before in this thread, it is too much ingrained in the culture and will never change.  Sad for all those people who have died from guns and will continue to do so in the future.  I have never understood why the NRA held such a power in the USA.
		
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No chance of getting rid of guns with idiots like this having a platform to influence people 🙄


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## IanM (Dec 6, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I think they need to realise that most countries in the world are amazed that they do.  .
		
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....that's what I always say to them.  Seems odd to us, but the norm to them.... other places have similarly strange customs.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2021)

DaveR said:



			No chance of getting rid of guns with idiots like this having a platform to influence people 🙄







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Notwithstanding that being the quietest I've ever seen PM in an inteview/debate....which of the 2 participants were you refering to as 'idiots like this'?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding that being the quietest I've ever seen PM in an inteview/debate....which of the 2 participants were you refering to as 'idiots like this'?

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I hate Piers' interview technique, except when he interviews morons like this.


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## Brads (Dec 13, 2021)

I’ve owned guns all my life in the UK
I think that there are far too many restrictions on gun ownership and it should be easier for people to own guns
I also think that owning a gun for self defence should be considered in the uk as well.

Using the systems in place already it is easy enough to weed out unsuitable people so less restrictions should be placed on people deemed suitable, especially regards handgun ownership. The rules should be less restrictive in their regard.
contentious I know but opinions are allowed.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			I’ve owned guns all my life in the UK
I think that there are far too many restrictions on gun ownership and it should be easier for people to own guns
I also think that owning a gun for self defence should be considered in the uk as well.

Using the systems in place already it is easy enough to weed out unsuitable people so less restrictions should be placed on people deemed suitable, especially regards handgun ownership. The rules should be less restrictive in their regard.
contentious I know but opinions are allowed.
		
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Haha


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## Brads (Dec 13, 2021)

Nicely thought out reply
Well done


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## Fade and Die (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			I’ve owned guns all my life in the UK
I think that there are far too many restrictions on gun ownership and it should be easier for people to own guns
I also think that owning a gun for self defence should be considered in the uk as well.

Using the systems in place already it is easy enough to weed out unsuitable people so less restrictions should be placed on people deemed suitable, especially regards handgun ownership. The rules should be less restrictive in their regard.
contentious I know but opinions are allowed.
		
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So what restrictions do you think should be lifted on gun ownership in this country? I like the fact that it’s very hard to get a gun license. (Not a shotgun license, I know that is easy) 
And are you serious with your point regarding people owning guns for self defence? Do you not think that is a slippery slope the yanks have slid down? I rather like the fact that in this country if you wave a gun in public in all likelihood you will be shot dead by the police.


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## Imurg (Dec 13, 2021)

Personal opinion...
There's too many illegal guns on the street..
Why would making them easier to aquire be a good thing..?
If I wanted to live in America I'd move there..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			Nicely thought out reply
Well done
		
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Go ask the good folks of Dunblane what they think of your ideas.


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## Brads (Dec 13, 2021)

You think that that one incident should have resulted in the restrictions it ended in ?

Dunblane was a result of incompetence and the incorrect issue of an fac.
The problem there was the person that owned the guns, and the police eagerness to deflect from their incompetence.

Very similar to the air gun restrictions applied in Scotland.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			You think that that one incident should have resulted in the restrictions it ended in ?

Dunblane was a result of incompetence and the incorrect issue of an fac.
The problem there was the person that owned the guns, and the police eagerness to deflect from their incompetence.

Very similar to the air gun restrictions applied in Scotland.
		
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One incident?

Dunblane, Hungerford, Cumbria(2010).

Courtesy of the tightening of procedures and laws the U.K. is a safer place. You appear to want it more along the lines of the USA.

My training manager has a licence for all sorts of rifles, and has no trouble game shooting or at various ranges both home and abroad. Why change the laws?

As for having guns for self defence, that’s exactly the sort of person who shouldn’t have a gun, i.e. Someone who already believes it’s ok to use a gun on someone else.


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## hovis (Dec 13, 2021)

You lot really want to try and talk to an American about gun control!   Leave him to it.  You'll never change his opinion.   A bit like "shafts choice" on this forum 😂


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## Lump (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			I’ve owned guns all my life in the UK
I think that there are far too many restrictions on gun ownership and it should be easier for people to own guns
I also think that owning a gun for self defence should be considered in the uk as well.

Using the systems in place already it is easy enough to weed out unsuitable people so less restrictions should be placed on people deemed suitable, especially regards handgun ownership. The rules should be less restrictive in their regard.
contentious I know but opinions are allowed.
		
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And what is your use for these guns? 
By guns I would guess you mean shotguns and potentially rifles.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			Nicely thought out reply
Well done
		
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My reply simply reflected how seriously I took your post.


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## Robster59 (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			I’ve owned guns all my life in the UK
I think that there are far too many restrictions on gun ownership and it should be easier for people to own guns
I also think that owning a gun for self defence should be considered in the uk as well.

Using the systems in place already it is easy enough to weed out unsuitable people so less restrictions should be placed on people deemed suitable, especially regards handgun ownership. The rules should be less restrictive in their regard.
contentious I know but opinions are allowed.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you want to relax the restrictions?  What is your agenda in this matter? 
What benefits do you see in the restrictions being relaxed?  I mean, real benefits?  
The lower the restrictions, the more chance of the tragedies that have been mentioned above being repeated as there is a bigger chance of someone getting through the net. 
One death is one too many.  Multiple mass killings are, to me, the perfect reason not to have relaxed control.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			I’ve owned guns all my life in the UK
*I think that there are far too many restrictions on gun ownership and it should be easier for people to own guns
I also think that owning a gun for self defence should be considered in the uk as well.*

Using the systems in place already it is easy enough to weed out unsuitable people so less restrictions should be placed on people deemed suitable, especially regards handgun ownership. The rules should be less restrictive in their regard.
contentious I know but opinions are allowed.
		
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My daughter carries a Glock and a Heckler and Koch every day. Heavier stuff to put through a lorry engine block. If you saw some of the brain dead idiots she has to deal with every day. Gun ownership should deffo not be easier. At the moment terrorists spend all day searching the net trying to make some kind of explosive device. If they had access to guns this country would become a bloodbath.


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## Brads (Dec 13, 2021)

I’m amazed folk think I’m American


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			I’m amazed folk think I’m American
		
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😳who is folks


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2021)

Brads said:



			I’m amazed folk think I’m American
		
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There’s not one reply that’s suggested you’re American.


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## Brads (Dec 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			There’s not one reply that’s suggested you’re American.
		
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Apart from

"You lot really want to try and talk to an American about gun control! Leave him to it. You'll never change his opinion. A bit like "shafts choice" on this forum 😂"


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## Robster59 (Dec 14, 2021)

Brads said:



			Apart from

"You lot really want to try and talk to an American about gun control! Leave him to it. You'll never change his opinion. A bit like "shafts choice" on this forum 😂"
		
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I didn't see that as relating to you.  That was giving an example about trying to talk to people who are pro-guns about gun control.  It's an argument you won't win. 
Anyway, you haven't answered any of the questions that were asked of you.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2021)

Brads said:



			Apart from

"You lot really want to try and talk to an American about gun control! Leave him to it. You'll never change his opinion. A bit like "shafts choice" on this forum 😂"
		
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“You lot relates to those that replied to you. Then there’s a new sentence…”leave him…” not leave the American. No ref to you being American - separate sentences with different nouns with no link.


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