# Budget 2021. What 1 change would you make?



## Bunkermagnet (Mar 2, 2021)

So there is no debate on the why or wherefore. You have the chance to make 1 change to the countries budget in these current times. 
My change would be to abolish with immediate effect the road tax free status of all electric vehicles.

Whats yours.


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## Smiffy (Mar 2, 2021)

Lower the tax rate of all frontline NHS workers by 10%


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Reduce VAT to 17.5% again to boost the economy and encourage spending


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## rudebhoy (Mar 2, 2021)

New tax for online retailers like Amazon to give the high street more of a level playing field.


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## Hobbit (Mar 2, 2021)

Switch road tax to more duty on fuel. The more you use the roads, the more you're taxed. This will also catch the foreign lorries coming to the UK, using the roads but paying no road tax, assuming they fill their tanks here.


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## Smiffy (Mar 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Switch road tax to more duty on fuel. The more you use the roads, the more you're taxed. This will also catch the foreign lorries coming to the UK, using the roads but paying no road tax, assuming they fill their tanks here.
		
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This idea has been mooted for Donkeys years. It makes sense. Why should the little old lady travelling 2,000 miles a year pay the same as a business user travelling 50,000??? And it will tempt people to go for more economical cars, especially electric etc.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 2, 2021)

Increase income tax by 1% at the middle bracket and to 50% at the higher bracket.   We have to pay for the huge Covid debt somehow.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 2, 2021)

Allocate more resources to go after the fat cats, rich tax dodgers and massive companies who hardly pay any tax who take millions and billions out of the coffers more so than people who take a lot of smaller amounts.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 2, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Increase income tax by 1% at the middle bracket and to 50% at the higher bracket.   We have to pay for the huge Covid debt somehow.
		
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Only problem with that is the rich then use expensive accountants to move their money into offshore tax avoidance schemes, leaving the lower brackets to foot the bill as usual


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## Dando (Mar 2, 2021)

stop all tax mitigation schemes that are being used by footballers, TV "personalities" etc


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## SatchFan (Mar 2, 2021)

No VAT on musical instruments, especially guitars.


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## Dando (Mar 2, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			No VAT on musical instruments, especially guitars.
		
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but 10,000% VAT on bagpipes


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## IanM (Mar 2, 2021)

I would rescue the hospitality sector by removing the heavy tax regime on pubs, and switching that to supermarkets. 

So, effectively, the prices swap places!  

 Supermarkets are not dependent on alcohol sales to make a profit.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Reduce VAT to 17.5% again to boost the economy and encourage spending
		
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Absolutely against that idea.

Last summer the country sold out of home jacuzzis and everyone ate out 3 times a week. When the shops are open people will go.
we have to raise funds, a massive increase to corporate tax needs to come in imo. Any company that used the furlough scheme should pay a massive hike on their profits for the next 3 years, or until their additional taxes exceed 50% of what was paid for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 2, 2021)

Make Tax Avoidance illegal.


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## Kellfire (Mar 2, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Absolutely against that idea.

Last summer the country sold out of home jacuzzis and everyone ate out 3 times a week. When the shops are open people will go.
we have to raise funds, a massive increase to corporate tax needs to come in imo. Any company that used the furlough scheme should lay a massive hike for the next 3 years, or until their additional taxes exceed 50% of what was paid for them.
		
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So you want to save companies just to cripple them after furlough ends? That’s not very sensible.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 2, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			So you want to save companies just to cripple them after furlough ends? That’s not very sensible.
		
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Yes, because Taking 50% of their PROFITS is crippling them.

edit. just realised I worded by first post wrong.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Absolutely against that idea.

Last summer the country sold out of home jacuzzis and everyone ate out 3 times a week. When the shops are open people will go.
we have to raise funds, a massive increase to corporate tax needs to come in imo. Any company that used the furlough scheme should pay a massive hike on their profits for the next 3 years, or until their additional taxes exceed 50% of what was paid for them.
		
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Disagree, people only spent because they weren't going out, wfh so saved travel costs 

Loads of other little savings 

Once things return people will be apprehensive to spend 

Plus 20% was a temp measure 10 years ago


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## Papas1982 (Mar 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Disagree, people only spent because they weren't going out, wfh so saved travel costs

Loads of other little savings

Once things return people will be apprehensive to spend

Plus 20% was a temp measure 10 years ago
		
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if people are really apprehensive, which I could understand as jobs are gonna go when the furlough bubble bursts. You could argue that lowering 2.5% would be wrong as it would be encouraging people to spend what they shouldn’t....

Also, unless you’re buying a big ticket item, it’s peanuts you’re saving, but millions that’s taken out of the economy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 2, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



*So there is no debate on the why or wherefore.* You have the chance to make 1 change to the countries budget in these current times.
My change would be to abolish with immediate effect the road tax free status of all electric vehicles.

Whats yours.
		
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Just reposting the OP.


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## KenL (Mar 2, 2021)

Abolish tuition fees on


SaintHacker said:



			Only problem with that is the rich then use expensive accountants to move their money into offshore tax avoidance schemes, leaving the lower brackets to foot the bill as usual
		
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Ban moving money off shore.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			if people are really apprehensive, which I could understand as jobs are gonna go when the furlough bubble bursts. You could argue that lowering 2.5% would be wrong as it would be encouraging people to spend what they shouldn’t....

Also, unless you’re buying a big ticket item, it’s peanuts you’re saving, but millions that’s taken out of the economy.
		
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It's proven before to boost spending money more comes in rather than people not spending


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## Papas1982 (Mar 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's proven before to boost spending money more comes in rather than people not spending
		
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yes, but your point a second ago was that people would be apprehensive to spend, and on this occasion they would Be right to be so.
do we want to trick peope into spending money as acts all it is, when t
here are likely massive redundancy/sackings around the corner?


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## rudebhoy (Mar 2, 2021)

75% tax on the attendance allowance for the House of Lords.


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My change would be to abolish with immediate effect the road tax free status of all electric vehicles.
		
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If the tax rate for ICE cars is dependent on engine size and CO2 emissions, how much tax should the electric vehicles pay?


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## USER1999 (Mar 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If the tax rate for ICE cars is dependent on engine size and CO2 emissions, how much tax should the electric vehicles pay?
		
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Rate it on KwH?


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## IanM (Mar 2, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Make Tax Avoidance illegal.
		
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It is illegal.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2021)

Put extra tax on chippers, white belts on golf trousers and iron head covers.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2021)

Go for the 'short, sharp shock approach'. Work out how much you would need to increase income tax to the middle and high rate bands to repay a good chunk of the covid debt over the next 5 years and apply that. Put in place cast iron laws to reduce it back to current levels when the debt reaches an agreed level. 

Oh and move the end date for the stamp duty holiday. I really do not fancy having to deal with that in 3 weeks, especially when many transactions are held up due to delays in local authority searches caused by covid.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 2, 2021)

IanM said:



			It is illegal.
		
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Evasion is illegal. Avoidance isn't.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



*Go for the 'short, sharp shock approach'. Work out how much you would need to increase income tax to the middle and high rate bands to repay a good chunk of the covid debt over the next 5 years and apply that.* Put in place cast iron laws to reduce it back to current levels when the debt reaches an agreed level.

Oh and move the end date for the stamp duty holiday. I really do not fancy having to deal with that in 3 weeks, especially when many transactions are held up due to delays in local authority searches caused by covid.
		
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This would be the one for me as well.


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## IanM (Mar 2, 2021)

By Was using Avoidance as meaning same as Evasion... meaning_ mitigation _is legal. I may have muddled the words!


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## chrisd (Mar 2, 2021)

Double the state pension


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 2, 2021)

IanM said:



			By Was using Avoidance as meaning same as Evasion... meaning_ mitigation _is legal. I may have muddled the words!
		
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Apology accepted.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 2, 2021)

Reduce Overseas Aid further to Nil


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 2, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			New tax for online retailers like Amazon to give the high street more of a level playing field.
		
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^^^^^^

This plus somehow closing the loophole which allows major companies to be based and operate here, make major profits here but have a token head office in Geneva, Monaco, Luxembourg etc in order to avoid UK taxes.

(I know the OP said one idea but I'm hoping this colud be merged into one long sentence )


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 2, 2021)

Simplify the tax system in all area's,  for example equilise tax rates for caital,  income, and corporations thus avoiding insentives to move money from one to the other, and remove all tax allowances with the exception of the personnal allowance,  pension contributions and genuine business expenses.   Costs savings at HMRC could then be invested in more staff to work on tax evasion.


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## Dando (Mar 2, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			This would be the one for me as well.
		
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not for me. I already pay 40% tax and don't wish to pay any more


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 2, 2021)

Follow the lead of the progressive countries and remove VAT from sanitary products.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 2, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Absolutely against that idea.

Last summer the country sold out of home jacuzzis and everyone ate out 3 times a week. When the shops are open people will go.
we have to raise funds, a massive increase to corporate tax needs to come in imo. Any company that used the furlough scheme should pay a massive hike on their profits for the next 3 years, or until their additional taxes exceed 50% of what was paid for them.
		
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The problem with that is that most UK companies costs are go up considerably if they export/import at the moment due to Brexit, new customs procedures, lack of preference on certain products so if we go too high we will not be competitive. The pound has also improved against the Euro and dollar so making it even harder to be competitive.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2021)

Remove inheritance tax


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## Kellfire (Mar 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Go for the 'short, sharp shock approach'. Work out how much you would need to increase income tax to the middle and high rate bands to repay a good chunk of the covid debt over the next 5 years and apply that. Put in place cast iron laws to reduce it back to current levels when the debt reaches an agreed level.

Oh and move the end date for the stamp duty holiday. I really do not fancy having to deal with that in 3 weeks, especially when many transactions are held up due to delays in local authority searches caused by covid.
		
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I think the stamp duty holiday extension is the worst kept secret in this budget.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 2, 2021)

Make the rate of income tax in line with your handicap ….  the lower your handicap, the less tax you pay.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think the stamp duty holiday extension is the worst kept secret in this budget.
		
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Pretty much but the pandemic has seen the time taken to produce a local search mover form 2 weeks to 8 weeks in a number of authorities that I deal with and so, basically, if they did not extend it anyone who found a property after xmas was going to be out of luck.


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## jim8flog (Mar 2, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Make Tax Avoidance illegal.
		
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 To make tax avoidance illegal would require a change to just about tax law going.

I hope you are not confusing it with tax evasion which is illegal.


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## jim8flog (Mar 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Switch road tax to more duty on fuel. The more you use the roads, the more you're taxed. This will also catch the foreign lorries coming to the UK, using the roads but paying no road tax, assuming they fill their tanks here.
		
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 I have advocated this for years but would also take in to account the OP electric vehicles do not pay any form of road tax but still use the roads and adding the tax to to fuel tax would still mean them paying no tax. Add  further to this I would like the third party portion of car insurance added to fuel duty so everybody who drives has insurance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 2, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			To make tax avoidance illegal would require a change to just about tax law going.

I hope you are not confusing it with tax evasion which is illegal.
		
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I know exactly what I put and what I meant.


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## jim8flog (Mar 2, 2021)

IanM said:



			It is illegal.
		
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 It is not 

Tax Evasion is illegal


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## jim8flog (Mar 2, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I know exactly what I put and what I meant.

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 So the local  self employed builder would not be allowed to put all the expenses of of running a business against his tax bill .

Nobody owning a business would be allowed to be treated as director and must be treated as an employee and so the lists go on


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 2, 2021)

Come on lads, I was hoping to keep this calm, collected and perhaps considered, which is why I said “1”  change to the budget. There has to be no explaining of ones choice needed


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## jim8flog (Mar 2, 2021)

Remove the upper limit on National Insurance.

A lot of the additional expenditure incurred has gone to this country's health system and it needs paying for.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 2, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Come on lads, I was hoping to keep this calm, collected and perhaps considered, which is why I said “1”  change to the budget. There has to be no explaining of ones choice needed

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I thought your op was quite clear, 👍🏻


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## Beezerk (Mar 2, 2021)

Dando said:



			not for me. I already pay 40% tax and don't wish to pay any more
		
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Ditto, I don't work weekends as I'll basically be working for half the overtime rate once it's had deductions. Not worth getting out of bed for imo.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 2, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Make the rate of income tax in line with your handicap ….  the lower your handicap, the less tax you pay.  

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I'd suggest to make playing golf mandatory for all then and with the WHS going up to 54, the national debt would be paid for in no time! 

Now, where is that lobby group?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Rate it on KwH?
		
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As in kWh the battery can hold? So if you get an older leaf (24kw) you pay less than my Corsa (50kw) 

Just fill it up more to go further ahav


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Follow the lead of the progressive countries and remove VAT from sanitary products.
		
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Hasn't this happened already? Think happened on the new year


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			yes, but your point a second ago was that people would be apprehensive to spend, and on this occasion they would Be right to be so.
do we want to trick peope into spending money as acts all it is, when t
here are likely massive redundancy/sackings around the corner?
		
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Exactly why spending your way out of recession can help boost the economy and create jobs

More jobs will go if nobody spends


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Ditto, I don't work weekends as I'll basically be working for half the overtime rate once it's had deductions. Not worth getting out of bed for imo.
		
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Ah see 40% tax or not if there overtime going at weekends count me in lol gets me out the house atm!!!

However our weekends are 12 hours and our standard nights are 10 hours so does make it more attractive


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 2, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Follow the lead of the progressive countries and remove VAT from sanitary products.
		
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It was removed on Jan 1st 2021. They couldn't remove it earlier for reasons that the date should give away.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 2, 2021)

Come down hard on the tax avoiding large multinational companies. If Amazon, Starbucks etc were given the option of pay full UK tax or get out the country I'm pretty sure they would stump up.


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## Beezerk (Mar 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ah see 40% tax or not if there overtime going at weekends count me in lol gets me out the house atm!!!

However our weekends are 12 hours and our standard nights are 10 hours so does make it more attractive
		
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Wow 😳
I'm getting too old for this weekend working malarky anyway, I'd rather be working on my awful golf game 😅


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## Beezerk (Mar 2, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Come down hard on the tax avoiding large multinational companies. If Amazon, Starbucks etc were given the option of pay full UK tax or get out the country I'm pretty sure they would stump up.
		
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How do you feel about also clamping down on the self employed who seem to be excellent at avoiding paying tax?


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## fundy (Mar 2, 2021)

If its only 1 change then its the biggest one possible. Scrap the whole tax system and start again. The current one is not close to being fit for purpose and making lots of little changes every year just makes it worse, creates more loopholes and legal challenges from people way smarter than the government to exploit


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Wow 😳
I'm getting too old for this weekend working malarky anyway, I'd rather be working on my awful golf game 😅
		
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It's not labour intensive , computer based .. yes when it's busy it's horrible but if it's running fine then just got to monitor


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

fundy said:



			If its only 1 change then its the biggest one possible. Scrap the whole tax system and start again. The current one is not close to being fit for purpose and making lots of little changes every year just makes it worse, creates more loopholes and legal challenges from people way smarter than the government to exploit
		
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Sometimes you wonder if that is actually best .. sometimes building something from ground up rather than bolting things onto an old system would actually be better all round .

Like you say .. build new one

Could get one ready and then say right Jan 2022 we move to this


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you feel about also clamping down on the self employed who seem to be excellent at avoiding paying tax?
		
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I think that issue has been partially addressed by the furlough scheme. Seems quite a few trades people have not been able to claim as much in furlough payments as they thought because they weren't declaring their full earnings. But by doing cheaper 'cash jobs' they are saving the public money anyway, if they declare everything then we end up paying more for our house repairs, improvements and so on.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I think that issue has been partially addressed by the furlough scheme. Seems quite a few trades people have not been able to claim as much in furlough payments as they thought because they weren't declaring their full earnings. But by doing cheaper 'cash jobs' they are saving the public money anyway, if they declare everything then we end up paying more for our house repairs, improvements and so on.
		
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Isn't it also coming with this new tax thing their having to do from this year or something 

Ir35 think it is


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it also coming with this new tax thing their having to do from this year or something

Ir35 think it is
		
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I'm not sure but I know that IR35 came in years ago when I was contracting. My accountant at the time advised me to pay myself minimum wage then take company dividends which attracted 20% tax rate. I believe that was all stopped some years ago.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it also coming with this new tax thing their having to do from this year or something

Ir35 think it is
		
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Not claiming to be an expert in it however it's something that I've had to look into due to my role of using external suppliers and IR35 doesn't apply (at this point) to small businesses so it's not going to affect the self employed who are contracting out.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2021)

I think this is a good time for the world to consider how their economies are structured. The idea that the national budget was like a current account was popular in recent times, even though anybody with any sense knew that is not how national budgets work. The US has a national debt of more than $20 trillion, the UK a debt of £2 trillion. These debts will never, ever, ever be paid off, nor is there any need to even pretend they may be. 

If the Govt seriously wanted to revive the economy, they would give more money to working people. The average citizen doesn't salt off their money into the Caymans or invest it in a trust, they spend it at Tesco, where it pays staff who then spend their wages and so on, with the Govt picking up income tax and VAT at each step. The money recirculates around the economy. The Govt could also invest in infrastructure, improving healthcare, education. They could waive college fees and encourage people to get a good education, which is a massive investment in human capital. 

Instead, they are going to rinse the better off working class and middle class again. That pisses me off a lot. I am a contractor, and Covid significantly reduced the number and value of contracts in my sector because a lot of companies paused their clinical trials. I lost a fair bit of money as a result. I didn't take a penny of Sunak's money in exchange. But now I will be paying greater corporation tax, income tax and having my pension savings shrunk again, and the IR35 changes will squeeze my take home. Meanwhile Serco and all the other companies who got massive overpaid contracts for doing a terrible, or no, job, get away with all their money, the NHS staff get nothing, or in the case of senior nurses and doctors, have their pensions further squeezed, and the Daily Mail gets to complain about it all the time while their non-dom proprietor gets to hide his money away from the taxman.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you feel about also clamping down on the self employed who seem to be excellent at avoiding paying tax?
		
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Going after that audience is an easy win but how much tax would you actually make? Ensuring that the large multinationals pay a sensible amount of tax would be a game changer in terms of the amount that HMRC would receive but they would be up against a battery of lawyers and the fact that, at this point, these companies aren't doing anything wrong (legally anyway).


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Remove inheritance tax
		
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This was to be my contribution to the thread, should be removed completely IMO.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm not sure but I know that IR35 came in years ago when I was contracting. My accountant at the time advised me to pay myself minimum wage then take company dividends which attracted 20% tax rate. I believe that was all stopped some years ago.
		
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It wasn't stopped. At the strat of April, the hiring companies take over the decision on who is inside or outside. 

A contractor gets paid gross, often through a recruitment company, then the money goes to the contractor's limited company, and after expenses are deducted, they pay corporation tax at 19%. Most people take a salary up to the National Insurance trigger, then take some more as dividends, and income tax is due on the total of the two. It allows companies flexibility and reduces their costs since they don't pay NI and other employer costs. The contractor can get a larger income, but has no benefits, so must self-fund or forego. Contracts often have shorter notice periods too, so security is not so good. 

There is no point using a limited company under IR35. It just increases costs, you may as well be a permanent employee. Many of us on such contracts are waiting to see whether the company will improve their terms to balance IR35 effects, or we may terminate contracts. I am considering moving contract to a EU based company outside IR35 where the rate is better and I can still use the limited company.


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## Beezerk (Mar 2, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm not sure but I know that IR35 came in years ago when I was contracting. My accountant at the time advised me to pay myself minimum wage then take company dividends which attracted 20% tax rate. I believe that was all stopped some years ago.
		
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The lad I worked with last week runs his own business,  well saying that he's a one man band going around repairing machines.
He said he was going to change his company so he pays himself dividends rather than a wage, somehow make zero profit and pay zero tax, there was also some fiddle involving his wife who is a teacher and nothing to do with his business. 
Just didn't sit right with me 🤔


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			The lad I worked with last week runs his own business,  well saying that he's a one man band going around repairing machines.
He said he was going to change his company so he pays himself dividends rather than a wage, somehow make zero profit and pay zero tax, there was also some fiddle involving his wife who is a teacher and nothing to do with his business.
Just didn't sit right with me 🤔
		
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If he is outside IR35, then he should be fine. Most contractors already pay themselves mostly as dividends, but that comes out of profits. If he has a legal way of doing so and paying zero tax. I'd love to know it. He can make a generous employers contribution to pension, and he can have his wife as company secretary and pay her a wage or dividends too.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It wasn't stopped. At the strat of April, the hiring companies take over the decision on who is inside or outside.

A contractor gets paid gross, often through a recruitment company, then the money goes to the contractor's limited company, and after expenses are deducted, they pay corporation tax at 19%. Most people take a salary up to the National Insurance trigger, then take some more as dividends, and income tax is due on the total of the two. It allows companies flexibility and reduces their costs since they don't pay NI and other employer costs. The contractor can get a larger income, but has no benefits, so must self-fund or forego. Contracts often have shorter notice periods too, so security is not so good.

There is no point using a limited company under IR35. It just increases costs, you may as well be a permanent employee. Many of us on such contracts are waiting to see whether the company will improve their terms to balance IR35 effects, or we may terminate contracts. I am considering moving contract to a EU based company outside IR35 where the rate is better and I can still use the limited company.
		
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Like I said, it was some years ago (1999-2000) when I was last contracting and things have changed.


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## Imurg (Mar 2, 2021)

fundy said:



			If its only 1 change then its the biggest one possible. Scrap the whole tax system and start again. The current one is not close to being fit for purpose and making lots of little changes every year just makes it worse, creates more loopholes and legal challenges from people way smarter than the government to exploit
		
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If they're going to start a whole new system can whoever defines what tax avoidance is also define what a divot is..


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## fundy (Mar 2, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If they're going to start a whole new system can whoever defines what tax avoidance is also define what a divot is..

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one of those is far more straightforward than the other


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## Beezerk (Mar 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If he is outside IR35, then he should be fine. Most contractors already pay themselves mostly as dividends, but that comes out of profits. If he has a legal way of doing so and paying zero tax. I'd love to know it. He can make a generous employers contribution to pension, and he can have his wife as company secretary and pay her a wage or dividends too.
		
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I didn't really go into the details with him, he seemed pretty confident he wouldn't be paying any tax though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 2, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If they're going to start a whole new system can whoever defines what tax avoidance is also define what a divot is..

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I’m happy to go with the HMRC definition as they’d be the ones enforcing it:

“Tax avoidance involves bending the rules of the tax system to gain a tax advantage that Parliament never intended.

It often involves contrived, artificial transactions that serve little or no purpose other than to produce this advantage. It involves operating within the letter, but not the spirit, of the law.”


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I didn't really go into the details with him, he seemed pretty confident he wouldn't be paying any tax though.
		
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It is not as clear cut as that. He may pay less tax, no NI on dividends for example, 20% on profits. However he will pay extra when he does self assesment as dividends are taken into account. Now, there are ways to push the boundaries if you are that way inclined but personally I like to sleep well at nights so I don't go close to those. Unless he is playing fast and loose he will inevitably pay tax. He may pay less than if he was simply paying himself a salary but he will pay tax. There is sometimes a bit of apendage waving going on in those conversations, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is not as clear cut as that. He may pay less tax, no NI on dividends for example, 20% on profits. However he will pay extra when he does self assesment as dividends are taken into account. Now, there are ways to push the boundaries if you are that way inclined but personally I like to sleep well at nights so I don't go close to those. Unless he is playing fast and loose he will inevitably pay tax. He may pay less than if he was simply paying himself a salary but he will pay tax. There is sometimes a bit of apendage waving going on in those conversations, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
		
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I pay myself and my wife pretty much the minimum and then we take the rest out in dividends, I've spoken to our accountant on numerous occasions about it and whilst it's still advantageous to do it this way, with the recent increase in tax on dividends the difference between someone earning the same as me on a PAYE basis isn't as much as some would like to believe!


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Not claiming to be an expert in it however it's something that I've had to look into due to my role of using external suppliers and IR35 doesn't apply (at this point) to small businesses so it's not going to affect the self employed who are contracting out.
		
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It will from April. My wife was a contractor and moved back into full employment last year based on the impact IR35 was going to have. Basically it becomes more likely that companies will have to class contractors as employees unless hired for a very defined job for a defined period. What you had before were some people who had been contracted to the same company in the same role for years and were employees in everything but name. 

The issue during furlough was in relation to contractors who had, often at the insistence of companies or recommendation of accountants, as limited companies and so paid themselves a minimum salary and the balance by a company dividend rather than people taking cash in hand. This is perfectly legal and acceptable but meant any furlough payments were based on the salary not the dividend. Think my wife got £400 a month for her 4 months of furlough.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It will from April. My wife was a contractor and moved back into full employment last year based on the impact IR35 was going to have. Basically it becomes more likely that companies will have to class contractors as employees *unless hired for a very defined job for a defined period*. What you had before were some people who had been contracted to the same company in the same role for years and were employees in everything but name.

The issue during furlough was in relation to contractors who had, often at the insistence of companies or recommendation of accountants, as limited companies and so paid themselves a minimum salary and the balance by a company dividend rather than people taking cash in hand. This is perfectly legal and acceptable but meant any furlough payments were based on the salary not the dividend. Think my wife got £400 a month for her 4 months of furlough.
		
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We've taken the view that ours are the latter as we bring them in for specific projects and they have a time limit. We may not use them for another 6 months or they might go into another project straight away, it just depends on our clients and the geographical nature of the work.


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## Hobbit (Mar 2, 2021)

The black economy needs addressing. My mate does cash in hand jobs at least 50% of the time. Some of them are not small jobs. Recently he did a job that came in at £110k, the large portion of which was staged payments and cash in hand. I’ve never ever seen £20k in cash before and I doubt I ever will again. That happens every year and has been happening for at least the last 25 years.

Its not just the Amazons of this world that are ripping us all off.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The black economy needs addressing. My mate does cash in hand jobs at least 50% of the time. Some of them are not small jobs. Recently he did a job that came in at £110k, the large portion of which was staged payments and cash in hand. I’ve never ever seen £20k in cash before and I doubt I ever will again. That happens every year and has been happening for at least the last 25 years.

Its not just the Amazons of this world that are ripping us all off.
		
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Agreed.

We have just had various works done on our house and garden with contractors being paid from over £7000 to £400 and without exception were asked if we could pay all or part in cash.

We refused to do so.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We've taken the view that ours are the latter as we bring them in for specific projects and they have a time limit. We may not use them for another 6 months or they might go into another project straight away, it just depends on our clients and the geographical nature of the work.
		
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Your contractors are dealt with correctly under IR35. My wife was contracted for health and safety work but it was general roles over an extended period sometimes. The problem she found is that a lot of companies did not want to get to grips with the new rules and so were simply phasing out using contractors.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It will from April. My wife was a contractor and moved back into full employment last year based on the impact IR35 was going to have. Basically it becomes more likely that companies will have to class contractors as employees unless hired for a very defined job for a defined period. *What you had before were some people who had been contracted to the same company in the same role for years and were employees in everything but name.*

The issue during furlough was in relation to contractors who had, often at the insistence of companies or recommendation of accountants, as limited companies and so paid themselves a minimum salary and the balance by a company dividend rather than people taking cash in hand. This is perfectly legal and acceptable but meant any furlough payments were based on the salary not the dividend. Think my wife got £400 a month for her 4 months of furlough.
		
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So these employees in everything but name, they got all the same employee perks I assume?
Holiday pay, sick pay, pension, healthcare if applicable, rewards schemes...


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So these employees in everything but name, they got all the same employee perks I assume?
Holiday pay, sick pay, pension, healthcare if applicable, rewards schemes...
		
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Nope, absolutely none of that. I guess I meant their roles were that attributable to a full time employee but not the benefits. I am fully in support of contractors, my wife hated giving it up but the market was drying up with companies worried about the new rules.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Nope, absolutely none of that. I guess I meant their roles were that attributable to a full time employee but not the benefits. I am fully in support of contractors, my wife hated giving it up but the market was drying up with companies worried about the new rules.
		
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Full time employment is more than just the role thats done. 
The short sightedness of the rules while the big globals pay miniscule % of whats due, its nuts. 
Easier to go after the small guy though.


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## GB72 (Mar 2, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Full time employment is more than just the role thats done.
The short sightedness of the rules while the big globals pay miniscule % of whats due, its nuts.
Easier to go after the small guy though.
		
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Totally agree, new rules are very unfair and target a section of employment that has set up in a way that suits companies (especially those with limits on heads on payroll) and contractors.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The black economy needs addressing. My mate does cash in hand jobs at least 50% of the time. Some of them are not small jobs. Recently he did a job that came in at £110k, the large portion of which was staged payments and cash in hand. I’ve never ever seen £20k in cash before and I doubt I ever will again. That happens every year and has been happening for at least the last 25 years.

Its not just the Amazons of this world that are ripping us all off.
		
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Most people I have known who are self employed in building and plumbing always seem to have large rolls of spondulas on them.


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## Crazyface (Mar 2, 2021)

I would sit down with all the clever accountants and get them to tell me ALL the current loopholes in the system that businesses and rich people use to get out of paying the right amount of tax, and then shut them all down IMMEDIATELY !


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## Dando (Mar 2, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I would sit down with all the clever accountants and get them to tell me ALL the current loopholes in the system that businesses and rich people use to get out of paying the right amount of tax, and then shut them all down IMMEDIATELY !
		
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one of my clients was one of the biggest providers of tax mitigation schemes - its scary what they could do with someone else's money so they paid the absolute minimum in tax


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 2, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Come on lads, I was hoping to keep this calm, collected and perhaps considered, which is why I said “1”  change to the budget. There has to be no explaining of ones choice needed

Click to expand...

I did exactly what you said BM. 5 words only and 4 people agreed. Can I have a reduction in handicap please!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2021)

Universal Credit: ‘Bake-in’ the current temporary £20/week supplement, and implement a £500/month work allowance (threshold on earnings allowable) before UC tapering kicks in.  £500/month is equivalent to the £6000 in savings an individual is permited to have before UC to be paid is impacted.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Universal Credit: ‘Bake-in’ the current temporary £20/week, and implement a £500/month work allowance (threshold on earnings allowable) before UC tapering kicks in.  £500/month is equivalent to the £6000 in savings an individual is permited to have before UC to be paid is impacted.
		
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I thought the UC savings threshold is 16000? That's what I was told when I tried to sign on after being made redundant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I thought the UC savings threshold is 16000? That's what I was told when I tried to sign on after being made redundant.
		
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UC tapering kicks in at £6k savings, with the level of UC provided reducing up to the £16k threshold above which you don’t qualify for any UC.  Looking at it the other way.  If you have more than £16k savings you do not qualify for UC.  If you have £6k or less your UC entitlement is not impacted.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			UC tapering kicks in at £6k savings, with the level of UC provided reducing up to the £16k threshold above which you don’t qualify for any UC.  Looking at it the other way.  If you have more than £16k savings you do not qualify for UC.  If you have £6k or less your UC entitlement is not impacted.
		
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That makes sense, ta 👍


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## JamesR (Mar 2, 2021)

Increase capital gains tax rates


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Not one thing I know but I'd..

Cut vat to 17.5%.. boost spending 
Increase duty on fuel 
Tax breaks for work forces to encourage people back to work from WFH because let's face it the economy is built on people being in work.. ofc offer like a 70/30 split but still 
Increase tax on companies like Amazon


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## Beedee (Mar 2, 2021)

Remove the jealousy tax on cars.


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## KenL (Mar 3, 2021)

Beedee said:



			Remove the jealousy tax on cars.
		
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What car do you drive?


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## Beedee (Mar 3, 2021)

KenL said:



			What car do you drive?
		
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A car where the jealousy tax applies.  I admit self interest 

However while I can just about see why you would tax the owner of a brand new expensive car more heavily, it feels wrong to tax the 2nd or 3rd owner of that car more heavily just because it was once expensive.  A 4 year old audi a4/bmw 3 series/ etc with a few toys is not an expensive car driven by people with too much money.


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## KenL (Mar 3, 2021)

I kind of agree but mainly because I feel it should go back to the amount of emissions.

Alternatively, the weight of a car would be an idea. Big car, more damage to the roads.

Far too many massive 4x4 style cars around where there is no need for them.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

KenL said:



			I kind of agree but mainly because I feel it should go back to the amount of emissions.

Alternatively, the weight of a car would be an idea. Big car, more damage to the roads.

Far too many massive 4x4 style cars around where there is no need for them.
		
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It is still done on emissions just the over 40k cars are taxed more 

However weight is a good point as electric cars are very heavy due to the weight on battery and even a telsa (40k plus) is tax free


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It is still done on emissions just the over 40k cars are taxed more

However weight is a good point as electric cars are very heavy due to the weight on battery and even a telsa (40k plus) is tax free
		
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At the moment the system is obsessed with tail pipe emissions. As more electric cars come into the mix, reducing tax income, that will move to other methods of taxation. It has to. Enjoy it whilst it lasts though


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At the moment the system is obsessed with tail pipe emissions. As more electric cars come into the mix, reducing tax income, that will move to other methods of taxation. It has to. Enjoy it whilst it lasts though 

Click to expand...

Just a question , I'm sure somebody will know more. Tax based on emissions was to encourage people to move to lower co2 producing cars (never got that .. £150 tax a year or £30 really not going to make me switch cars if I like it) anyways wasn't this to meet EU emissions standards .. which we are no longer part of? So we could scrap the system and start a fresh

However id say electric cars would be free for a while as they want people to switch 

Who knows


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## williamalex1 (Mar 3, 2021)

Scrap Trident


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Just a question , I'm sure somebody will know more. Tax based on emissions was to encourage people to move to lower co2 producing cars (never got that .. £150 tax a year or £30 really not going to make me switch cars if I like it) anyways wasn't this to meet EU emissions standards .. which we are no longer part of? So we could scrap the system and start a fresh

However id say electric cars would be free for a while as they want people to switch

Who knows
		
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Car mfrs still need to ship across the EU, most UK production is exported, so whatever is made has to meet those emission levels. The UK govt has signed up to meet various eco targets and to do this they need to push people out of petrol and diesel and into electric. Taxing these cars out of reach is one method (it is what they are doing in terms of company cars for example) Road tax wont make people change their minds but BIK tax rates on company drivers, huge market, will.

I see it being a little like solar panels. Big incentives at the beginning then they get removed as too many people take up those incentives. Electric car take up is more complicated but you get the gist.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Car mfrs still need to ship across the EU, most UK production is exported, so whatever is made has to meet those emission levels. The UK govt has signed up to meet various eco targets and to do this they need to push people out of petrol and diesel and into electric. Taxing these cars out of reach is one method (it is what they are doing in terms of company cars for example) Road tax wont make people change their minds but BIK tax rates on company drivers, huge market, will.

I see it being a little like solar panels. Big incentives at the beginning then they get removed as too many people take up those incentives. Electric car take up is more complicated but you get the gist.
		
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Very true, I'm enjoying cheap charging ATM and free public charging but I know it won't be free public charging for long and cheap charging will just go flat rate


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Very true, I'm enjoying cheap charging ATM and free public charging but I know it won't be free public charging for long and cheap charging will just go flat rate
		
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Funnily enough the local council to me have just ended free charging in public car parks. I didn't realise it was free . Bloomin free loaders


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Only problem with that is the rich then use expensive accountants to move their money into offshore tax avoidance schemes, leaving the lower brackets to foot the bill as usual
		
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They're not paying anything now, so if half of them move their money off-shore (as if the money isn't off-shore already) you'll get more in taxes from the few that stay.

Oh, and change things so that money made in the UK is taxed in the UK, and cannot be sent off-shore.

End the "non-dom" status.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			75% tax on the attendance allowance for the House of Lords.
		
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They seem to be the only house of Parliament that actually does something.
Not much, but something.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Funnily enough the local council to me have just ended free charging in public car parks. I didn't realise it was free . Bloomin free loaders 

Click to expand...

Tesco is the one .. 7kw charger free. 22kw charger free.. 50kw charger 27p per kw


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Remove inheritance tax
		
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Only on estates under, say, £3million.
On big estates, raise it.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Make the rate of income tax in line with your handicap ….  the lower your handicap, the less tax you pay.
		
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Reverse that and you have an excellent idea.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It was removed on Jan 1st 2021. They couldn't remove it earlier for reasons that the date should give away.
		
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Ireland has a zero percent tax rate on feminine sanitary products, and any country in the EU could do the same.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Ireland has a zero percent tax rate on feminine sanitary products, and any country in the EU could do the same.
		
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The text below was taken from an Irish online newspaper.

sanitary products tax in Europe, showing that the five countries with the highest Tampon Tax are:

Hungary - 27%, Norway - 25%, Sweden - 25%, Denmark - 25%, Croatia - 25%.

Research also revealed the countries with the lowest Tampon Tax:

Republic of Ireland - 0%, UK - 5%, France 5.5%, Netherlands - 6%, Belgium - 6%.

Tampons and sanitary towels are not subject to VAT in Ireland which has a zero rate treatment on women’s sanitary products.

*The Irish rate was implemented before EU legislation imposed reduced VAT rates on certain goods and services. This legislation has prevented other EU members, like the UK, from reducing their VAT rate on sanitary products to 0%.*


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

Beedee said:



			A 4 year old audi a4/bmw 3 series/ etc with a few toys is not an expensive car driven by people with too much money.
		
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They're expensive cars driven, usually quite badly, by people with too much money.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The Irish rate was implemented before EU legislation imposed reduced VAT rates on certain goods and services. This legislation has prevented other EU members, like the UK, from reducing their VAT rate on sanitary products to 0%.
		
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Then the rate should be reduced to 0.1 percent across the board.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 3, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Scrap Trident
		
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 I watched yes minister last night, can't wait for the one about Trident to be on soon.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 3, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Only on estates under, say, £3million.
On big estates, raise it.
		
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A bit harsh on estate car owners.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Then the rate should be reduced to 0.1 percent across the board.
		
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The limit is 5% which is why the UK govt reduced it to that level. They were unable to go below 5%, as were all other countries from the moment the directive was brought in. At least the UK govt actually took it  to 5%, unlike most others. The question of why VAT was on them in the first place is a whole other debate but at least that has been resolved here now.


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## fundy (Mar 3, 2021)

Decent sounding budget in the main, devil will be in the detail as it always will be


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## Beedee (Mar 3, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			They're expensive cars driven, usually quite badly, by people with too much money.
		
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Expensive - they _were _expensive cars but aren't anymore.  Quick glance at Autotrader says dealer price for a 4 year old BMW 330 is about £16K.  List price for a new Ford Fiesta starts at £17K.  If I was in the market for a car 17K car, between those two it would be the used beemer every time.
Driven badly - sometimes, just like every other car.
By people with too much money - see above.  In three more years the beemer will have depreciated less than the fiesta.


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## jim8flog (Mar 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It was removed on Jan 1st 2021. They couldn't remove it earlier for reasons that the date should give away.
		
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 What was that, were they hoping for a baby boom in 2020.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			What was that, were they hoping for a baby boom in 2020.
		
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They may well have got one with so many people on furlough


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## jim8flog (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Just a question , I'm sure somebody will know more. Tax based on emissions was to encourage people to move to lower co2 producing cars (never got that .. £150 tax a year or £30 really not going to make me switch cars if I like it) anyways wasn't this to meet EU emissions standards .. which we are no longer part of? So we could scrap the system and start a fresh

However id say electric cars would be free for a while as they want people to switch

Who knows
		
Click to expand...

 Twas a bit of an ouch for me. I switched a to newer model of the same vehicle last year with a switch from diesel to petrol and went from £30 to £150.  £150 is a bit of an ouch when you are a very low mileage driver.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Twas a bit of an ouch for me. I switched a to newer model of the same vehicle last year with a switch from diesel to petrol and went from £30 to £150.  £150 is a bit of an ouch when you are a very low mileage driver.
		
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What I mean is say ur paying £150 a year low mileage driver

Will you spend money to change cars to save £120 a year


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## jim8flog (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What I mean is say ur paying £150 a year low mileage driver

Will you spend money to change cars to save £120 a year
		
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I did originally when swapping from a £225 road tax to £30, it was also a bit of gas guzzler as well. Thinking about how much it was costing me to run out for the day was making me stop at home more and more.


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## banjofred (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What I mean is say ur paying £150 a year low mileage driver

*Will you spend money to change cars to save £120 a year*

Click to expand...

My wife's father might. Tight git like you have never seen. He might just cut off a toe so he can buy a cheaper pair of shoes..... Oh....and he's from Yorkshire


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 3, 2021)

Only the people who were on furlough should have any tax rises to help pay the bill


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## fundy (Mar 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only the people who were on furlough should have any tax rises to help pay the bill
		
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why? apart from i assume you havent been furloughed


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

fundy said:



			why? apart from i assume you havent been furloughed
		
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Strongly disagree with it, these guys have lived off 80% income (or less in a higher paid job) to help keep jobs going just so unemployment looks lower 

Then they start working again and bamn here is s tax bill?

People moan about an unfair society where big companies pay little but the little man pays big but this would be a step to even more unfair


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

Beedee said:



			Expensive - they _were _expensive cars but aren't anymore.  Quick glance at Autotrader says dealer price for a 4 year old BMW 330 is about £16K.  List price for a new Ford Fiesta starts at £17K.  If I was in the market for a car 17K car, between those two it would be the used beemer every time.
Driven badly - sometimes, just like every other car.
By people with too much money - see above.  In three more years the beemer will have depreciated less than the fiesta.
		
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They're more expensive than comparable cheaper cars of the same age. You're trying to compare a used BMW with a new Ford Fiesta.
Driven badly, usually, by some boy racer, or an oldie that acts like a boy racer.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The limit is 5% which is why the UK govt reduced it to that level. They were unable to go below 5%, as were all other countries from the moment the directive was brought in. At least the UK govt actually took it  to 5%, unlike most others. The question of why VAT was on them in the first place is a whole other debate but at least that has been resolved here now.
		
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It'll be able to go down to zero in 2022.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 3, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			A bit harsh on estate car owners. 

Click to expand...

If someone out there has a estate car worth just south of £3million then tax them 'til their pips squeak.


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## USER1999 (Mar 3, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			They're more expensive than comparable cheaper cars of the same age. You're trying to compare a used BMW with a new Ford Fiesta.
Driven badly, usually, by some boy racer, or an oldie that acts like a boy racer.
		
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For sure, but someone with a budget, looks at options within the budget.

Previously expensive car, less depreciation, or new car, that will depreciate like a stone dropped in a pond. Previously expensive car has leather, gadgets, nice trim, budget car is cheap, plasticky, furry seats. 

It's no comparison, unless you want that new car feeling. Which lasts about a week.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 3, 2021)

fundy said:



			why? apart from i assume you havent been furloughed
		
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Why not just pay them universal credit or state pension ?.
Others are expected to survive on it.


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## Beedee (Mar 3, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			They're more expensive than comparable cheaper cars of the same age.
		
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Of course they are.  The point that seems to have whizzed over your head is that a used car is not expensive now.  It is not affordable only by the rich.  Your petty jealousy is being directed at people who can't afford the car while it's actually expensive.

Tbh never heard of someone deciding to buy choose a car purely on age before.  I've always set a budget and got the best car I could for that price that meets my requirements.



GuyInLyon said:



			You're trying to compare a used BMW with a new Ford Fiesta.
		
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No, I'm not trying to compare them.  I'm succeeding in comparing them.   You can get a nice used beemer for the same price as nice new fiesta.  The former has already taken it's big hit in depreciation.  The latter will depreciate like used toilet paper.   Over the next couple of years, and including depreciation, the used beemer will be much cheaper to run than the new fiesta. 



GuyInLyon said:



			Driven badly, usually, by some boy racer, or an oldie that acts like a boy racer.
		
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Tripe.


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## fundy (Mar 3, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Why not just pay them universal credit or state pension ?.
Others are expected to survive on it.
		
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for me, because they were furloughed and told not to work, their companies shut down by the pandemic, they didnt lose their jobs, they didnt become OAPs overnight. How many people would have become homeless unable to pay rent and/or mortgages in that situation? what state would that have left the country in?

do you not support any of the financial business support measures the govt has used through the pandemic?

pretty sure why would be a better question


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## williamalex1 (Mar 3, 2021)

fundy said:



			for me, because they were furloughed and told not to work, their companies shut down by the pandemic, they didnt lose their jobs, they didnt become OAPs overnight. How many people would have become homeless unable to pay rent and/or mortgages in that situation? what state would that have left the country in?

do you not support any of the financial business support measures the govt has used through the pandemic?

pretty sure why would be a better question
		
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I asked why, companies go bust all the time for what ever reason, the employees are redundant and left on universal credit .
I've heard rumours of self employed furloughed people still working for cash only


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## fundy (Mar 3, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I asked why, companies go bust all the time for what ever reason, the employees are redundant and left on universal credit .
I've heard rumours of self employed furloughed people still working for cash only 

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i know you did and i answered it, if you dont want to answer why you dont think so thats up to you. if you dont agree with the government supporting businesses and employees through the pandemic who have been unable to work then thats your choice, albeit one i expect very few people agree with. btw no one self employed has been furloughed, they have been eligible for the SEISS, and under that scheme they are still allowed to work (doesnt have to be for cash)


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## Kellfire (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only the people who were on furlough should have any tax rises to help pay the bill
		
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Hang your head in shame.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I asked why, companies go bust all the time for what ever reason, the employees are redundant and left on universal credit .
I've heard rumours of self employed furloughed people still working for cash only 

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He said during lockdown 1 you can still work if self employed your tax next year will adjust 

Also furlough people can work... Just not for their company.. could go stack self's in Tesco's for example


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## williamalex1 (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			He said during lockdown 1 you can still work if self employed your tax next year will adjust

Also furlough people can work... Just not for their company.. could go stack self's in Tesco's for example
		
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Seemingly some self employed tradesmen on furlough receiving 80% of their income, but still working for additional undeclared/untraceable cash in hand.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Seemingly some self employed tradesmen on furlough receiving 80% of their income, but still working for additional undeclared/untraceable cash in hand.
		
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https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/coronavirus-if-youre-self-employed/

Cash in hand bit dunno why they doing except being dodgy but they can work


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			It'll be able to go down to zero in 2022.
		
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Good news. Why wait though? It will be interesting to see how many go to zero when I think only the UK had actually reduced to 5%, other than Ireland of course, the other countries remained higher than the lower amount allowed.

Thankfully it is zero here now, what happens elsewhere is beyond our control.


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## KenL (Mar 4, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Twas a bit of an ouch for me. I switched a to newer model of the same vehicle last year with a switch from diesel to petrol and went from £30 to £150.  £150 is a bit of an ouch when you are a very low mileage driver.
		
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The days of the £30 road tax is gone.
My wife had a Citigo 66 plate, £30 tax.
Replaced it with a 19 plate, £150 tax.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Seemingly some self employed tradesmen on furlough receiving 80% of their income, but still working for additional undeclared/untraceable cash in hand.
		
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So millions forced on to furlough, had their income cut, jobs put at risk, homes at risk, etc

All to protect the NHS and save lives and you want them punished because of a few, apparently, dodgy self employed people taking the michael. 

What a sad Country we live in


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Seemingly some self employed tradesmen on furlough receiving 80% of their income, but still working for additional undeclared/untraceable cash in hand.
		
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why are you repeating your incorrect statements?


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 4, 2021)

May have got figures slightly wrong and if so apologies.

Govt. Estimated 11 % unemployment but reduced to 6 % yesterday ( huge reduction). Nov. 20 Rate was 5% which equated to 1.74m Dec 20. An increase to 6% would mean around 350,000 more.

This seems extremely low and optimistic and does somebody just hazard a guess and it is acceptable to reduce from 11 to 6 %?


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 4, 2021)

Beedee said:



			You can get a nice used beemer for the same price as nice new fiesta.
		
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Along with the attendant higher insurance rates, lower fuel efficiency, lack of guaranty, etc.
Plus you'd be driving a BMW, and most BMW drivers are bounders


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## KenL (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Along with the attendant higher insurance rates, lower fuel efficiency, lack of guaranty, etc.
Plus you'd be driving a BMW, and most BMW drivers are bounders.
		
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What do you drive @GuyInLyon that prevents you from being bounder

Surely those stereotypes are a thing of the past?


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## williamalex1 (Mar 4, 2021)

fundy said:



			why are you repeating your incorrect statements?
		
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Oops


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			May have got figures slightly wrong and if so apologies.

Govt. Estimated 11 % unemployment but reduced to 6 % yesterday ( huge reduction). Nov. 20 Rate was 5% which equated to 1.74m Dec 20. An increase to 6% would mean around 350,000 more.

This seems extremely low and optimistic and does somebody just hazard a guess and it is acceptable to reduce from 11 to 6 %?
		
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Govt / Treasury forecasts are notoriously questionable. It's guesswork. It might be educated guesswork but guesswork is what it ultimately comes down to. Don't be tricked into thinking they are all seeing and knowing.


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## Beedee (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Along with the attendant higher insurance rates, lower fuel efficiency, lack of guaranty, etc.
Plus you'd be driving a BMW, and most BMW drivers are bounder.
		
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Since the OP requested a non-arguing thread I'll keep quiet now. 

Your last sentence breaks forum guidelines and is pure troll, so I'm out.


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## IanM (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Don't be tricked into thinking they are all seeing and knowing.
		
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or equally tricked in thinking they are all stupid... I've spent the morning with some folk who are world leaders in stuff that most folk on here (inc me initially) don't even know is "stuff!"  

Shutting down the UK for 12 months has lost us about 10% of GDP.  That needs fixing.  It's going to be tough and lengthy.  (Unless you are a Facebook expert of course, who could sort it by the end of March if their mum would allow them!)


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

IanM said:



			or equally tricked in thinking they are all stupid... I've spent the morning with some folk who are world leaders in stuff that most folk on here (inc me initially) don't even know is "stuff!" 

Shutting down the UK for 12 months has lost us about 10% of GDP.  That needs fixing.  It's going to be tough and lengthy.  (Unless you are a Facebook expert of course, who could sort it by the end of March if their mum would allow them!)
		
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I would never suggest they are stupid, they are way above my level. Their forecasting is dreadful though, as most forecasts are. They don't account for Dr Malcolm's chaos theory, Jurassic Park, a big mistake . I stopped taking notice of forecasts some time ago, they are not worth stressing over or equally, getting excited over.


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## Grizzly (Mar 4, 2021)

I think there should be some tax breaks for frontline public servants (NHS, law enforcement, fire and teachers) who have bourne the brunt of the pandemic but look set to now also be the ones to pay for it with pay freezes and tax rises.

And if I were to offer one which is less personal, I would switch the burden of Stamp Duty from the buyer to the seller.  That would help first time buyers and unglue the housing market.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Govt / Treasury forecasts are notoriously questionable. It's guesswork. It might be educated guesswork but guesswork is what it ultimately comes down to. Don't be tricked into thinking they are all seeing and knowing.
		
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I said “ hazard a guess” but find it unrealistic, optimistic and should be held to account at a later date and totally unacceptable if wrong.

Similar to Mrs 3OTT say 56 mince pies in the freezer when I knew there were 70+ Lord T. Almost divorceable offence!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			I said “ hazard a guess” but find it unrealistic, optimistic and should be held to account at a later date and totally unacceptable if wrong.

Similar to Mrs 3OTT say 56 mince pies in the freezer when I knew there were 70+ Lord T. Almost divorceable offence!
		
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Forecasts are a bit of a bugbear of mind. Whether treasury forecasts, job forecasts, promises made for new developments etc. Most people just take them on face value and nod blindly. I wish more would be reviewed at a later date and people questioned about them, as you suggest.

I don't know what to say about your second paragraph . That level of deception on such a critical subject . You are a stronger man than me  (I may have been a little excitable with the number of emojis used, apologies)


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## Bdill93 (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			They're expensive cars driven, usually quite badly, by people with too much money.
		
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I definately dont have too much money.....


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## Kellfire (Mar 4, 2021)

Grizzly said:



			I think there should be some tax breaks for frontline public servants (NHS, law enforcement, fire and teachers) who have bourne the brunt of the pandemic but look set to now also be the ones to pay for it with pay freezes and tax rises.

And if I were to offer one which is less personal, I would switch the burden of Stamp Duty from the buyer to the seller.  That would help first time buyers and unglue the housing market.
		
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Careful now, you’re verging into communism here.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2021)

KenL said:



			I kind of agree but mainly because I feel it should go back to the amount of emissions.

Alternatively, the weight of a car would be an idea. Big car, more damage to the roads.

Far too many massive 4x4 style cars around where there is no need for them.
		
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People are already paying a lot of car tax that isn't being used to fix the roads, why should they pay more not to to fix the roads.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 4, 2021)

KenL said:



			What do you drive @GuyInLyon that prevents you from being bounder
Surely those stereotypes are a thing of the past?
		
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I drive a 2020 Seat Ibiza. Lovely car.
As to stereotypes, in almost 50 years of driving there are certain brands of cars that I've found to be, generally, in the hands of bounders.
BMWs and Audis are definitely in that group.
Strangely, I've usually found that Corvettes are usually driven slowly by older drivers.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			I drive a 2020 Seat Ibiza. Lovely car.
As to stereotypes, in almost 50 years of driving there are certain brands of cars that I've found to be, generally, in the hands of bounders.
BMWs and Audis are definitely in that group.
Strangely, I've usually found that Corvettes are usually driven slowly by older drivers.
		
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In my experience Seats are normally driven my baseball cap wearing chavs who think their 1.0L Ibiza is a Cupra R. So that must mean its true and that you yourself have a Burberry cap stashed in your door bin. 

Funny things stereo types. I drive a BMW, never fail to use the correct lane or indicate when required.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			In my experience Seats are normally driven my baseball cap wearing chavs who think their 1.0L Ibiza is a Cupra R. So that must mean its true and that you yourself have a Burberry cap stashed in your door bin.
Funny things stereo types. I drive a BMW, never fail to use the correct lane or indicate when required.
		
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Everyone has their own experiences, but here in France I don't believe that I've seen a "chav," although I do know what they are.
I wouldn't touch a Burberry cap with a ten foot pole.


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## patricks148 (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			In my experience Seats are normally driven my baseball cap wearing chavs who think their 1.0L Ibiza is a Cupra R. So that must mean its true and that you yourself have a Burberry cap stashed in your door bin.

Funny things stereo types. I drive a BMW, never fail to use the correct lane or indicate when required.
		
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But that doesn't stop you being and absolute bounder still


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Everyone has their own experiences, but here in France I don't believe that I've seen a "chav," although I do know what they are.
I wouldn't touch a Burberry cap with a ten foot pole.
		
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Exactly, everyone has their own experiences. It doesn't make them representative, or true in any way. 

Just because you've seen BMW drivers be tits there will be hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands that are not tits.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			But that doesn't stop you being and absolute bounder still

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I don't know what a bounder is, but there is a probability that I might indeed qualify as one.


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## patricks148 (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I don't know what a bounder is, but there is a probability that I might indeed qualify as one.
		
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any Terry Thomas film will explain dear boy


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			any Terry Thomas film will explain dear boy

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There has never been a bet cad or a bounder. Absolute legend.


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## USER1999 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There has never been a bet cad or a bounder. Absolute legend.
		
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Patrick Reed?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Patrick Reed?
		
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One is a bounder with charm, one is Patrick Reed 😆. It depends how you like your bounders?


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Exactly, everyone has their own experiences. It doesn't make them representative...
		
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Actually, it does.
Thanks for playing.


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## Beedee (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Actually, it does.
Thanks for playing.
		
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Loose stool water of the highest order.  Don't bother replying - I won't see it.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 4, 2021)

A re-configuration of PAYE.

Rotters @ 20%

Cads @ 40%

Bounders @ 60%


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## Imurg (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			A re-configuration of PAYE.

Rotters @ 20%

Cads @ 40%

Bounders @ 60%
		
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Utter Scoundrels @70%?


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 4, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Utter Scoundrels @70%?
		
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They are probably self-employed tradesmen. 

Lovable rogues, now thats a hard one to quantify.


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## Imurg (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			They are probably self-employed tradesmen. 

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Busted....


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## AmandaJR (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only the people who were on furlough should have any tax rises to help pay the bill
		
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Wowzas. So myself and many of my colleagues were furloughed and then made redundant. Nice to think we should have higher taxes to look forward to - just to throw salt on the wounds


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Actually, it does.
Thanks for playing.
		
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Haha, you card you. Believing that your world view actually counts. 

Thankfully there's still a few gems like you around, lest the world be full of normals.


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

fundy said:



			Decent sounding budget in the main, devil will be in the detail as it always will be
		
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the more of the detail i read, the less i think it was that good a budget sadly 
were definitely some good parts but some awful parts too imho


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 5, 2021)

Beedee said:



			Don't bother replying - I won't see it.
		
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Okay.


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