# Worlds gone mad



## Pin-seeker (Jan 28, 2018)

So the PDC are banning walk on girls 


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/darts/42841620

Worlds gone mad.


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 28, 2018)

Modern and correct move IMO.

Some other sports need to catch up quick!

IMO views about women and men are changing a lot at the moment, mostly for the better.

I think very soon the focus is going to switch to male equality to ensure actually equality.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 28, 2018)

Why not just ban people from being pretty just incase it offends all the munters?


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 28, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why not just ban people from being pretty just incase it offends all the munters?
		
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Not a bad idea... I wonâ€™t be banned though at least!


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 28, 2018)

ScienceBoy said:



			Not a bad idea... I wonâ€™t be banned though at least!
		
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Yeah Iâ€™m pretty safe ðŸ˜


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## Tashyboy (Jan 28, 2018)

There are certain things in life that are outdated and need banning. But if ever they look to ban Speedos and crocs then it's gonna proper kick off in the Tash household.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2018)

I'm guessing this is a tongue in cheek thread? Walk on girls are a bit 1980's aren't they, the world  moved on.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 28, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm guessing this is a tongue in cheek thread? Walk on girls are a bit 1980's aren't they, the world  moved on.
		
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Nope Iâ€™m deadly serious ðŸ˜

Not be long until the ladies on strictly are wearing overalls.


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## jim8flog (Jan 28, 2018)

With all the girls losing their job I suppose we are going to have to support them whilst they are on the dole after being prevented from doing what they choose to do.

Imagine it happening in NFL.


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2018)

They may be going in F1 too


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## Andy (Jan 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			They may be going in F1 too
		
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As long as they stay for MotoGP, F1 is gash anyway.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 28, 2018)

Hells bells lets go the whole hog and put a total ban on ladies looking attractive...

No bikinis on the Copacabana either...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2018)

Its the right move and the right step forward , itâ€™s something that belongs in the dark ages - there is no reason for them to be three beyond watching old or fat men perv all over her ( Hence why Barnevld is complaining ) - I suspect if they walked on with two guys they wouldnâ€™t be throwing the toys out if that stopped. Hopefully all the sports will follow their lead.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its the right move and the right step forward , itâ€™s something that belongs in the dark ages - there is no reason for them to be three beyond watching old or fat men perv all over her ( Hence why Barnevld is complaining ) - I suspect if they walked on with two guys they wouldnâ€™t be throwing the toys out if that stopped. Hopefully all the sports will follow their lead.
		
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Whatâ€™s different from this and you perving over the ladies on strictly (which you have said you do in the past)?


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## anotherdouble (Jan 28, 2018)

I suppose the ring girls in boxing will be going. Think I will hang up my car keys and go for an interview. They will obviously be recruiting


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			So the PDC are banning walk on girls 


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/darts/42841620

Worlds gone mad.
		
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Says some old fuddy duddy living in the dark ages.oo:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 28, 2018)

I wonder if the pretty girls that make a good living from doing this were consulted.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 28, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I wonder if the pretty girls that make a good living from doing this were consulted.
		
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I very much doubt it Gordon.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 28, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I wonder if the pretty girls that make a good living from doing this were consulted.
		
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Its no longer politically correct to make your own choices...


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2018)

Itâ€™s odd what the offended brigade will have a hissy about, and what they will ignore!


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## User20205 (Jan 28, 2018)

the only reason I can think that theyâ€™ve done it is to try and attract more of a family audience......but that seems at odds with the rest of their marketing policy..eg drink your body weight in alcohol. It seems like an odd decision as Iâ€™ve not seen a campaign for them to be removed


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2018)

IanM said:



			Itâ€™s odd what the offended brigade will have a hissy about, and what they will ignore!
		
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On that I would agree. I do think these models have had their day but I find it amazing that the endless semi naked and naked selfies posted by celebs and reality numpties get no grief at all. I don't see the difference between the two situations.


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## JT77 (Jan 28, 2018)

I am not surprised that have stopped the ladies from walking down with the darts players, the way the world Is going we wonâ€™t be able to say or do anything incase someone finds offence. 
Personally I think they did no harm, itâ€™s not like they were in bikinis, was just a bit fanfair before the match starts. 
The girls had an easy job, that they were paid for, hopefully they find work somewhere else that doesnâ€™t offend anyone!!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 28, 2018)

I remember when the ladies at my club were told they would all have equal standing with the male members. They basically already did, they could play Saturday mornings etc unless there was a 'male only' competition (which wasn't that often) so they really didn't gain very much at all. They had to pay an extra Â£500 a year though and guess what......nobody actually asked them if they wanted this new deal or not but thanks to the PC brigade it was forced upon them.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 28, 2018)

What are people's thoughts on Miss spirinac introducing the players I  Dubai?

Woukd she be their if she looked like Laura Davies?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 28, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I remember when the ladies at my club were told they would all have equal standing with the male members. They basically already did, they could play Saturday mornings etc unless there was a 'male only' competition (which wasn't that often) so they really didn't gain very much at all. They had to pay an extra Â£500 a year though and guess what......nobody actually asked them if they wanted this new deal or not but thanks to the PC brigade it was forced upon them.
		
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Who were the PC brigade?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 28, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			What are people's thoughts on Miss spirinac introducing the players I  Dubai?

Woukd she be their if she looked like Laura Davies?
		
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She should have been doing it in a bikini.


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## Don Barzini (Jan 28, 2018)

Petition afoot to get them reinstated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-42851554

â€However model Charlotte Wood who is one of the best known walk-on girls on the darts circuit has spoken out against the ban.

"Wow 10k signatures in 24 hours! A big thank you for everyone's support," she wrote on Twitter.

The 29-year-old said her "rights are being taken away" and darts accounts for 60% of her income.â€


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2018)

Don Barzini said:



			Petition afoot to get them reinstated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-42851554

â€However model Charlotte Wood who is one of the best known walk-on girls on the darts circuit has spoken out against the ban.

"Wow 10k signatures in 24 hours! A big thank you for everyone's support," she wrote on Twitter.

The 29-year-old said her "rights are being taken away" and darts accounts for 60% of her income.â€

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10,000 knuckle draggers in the darts scene, wow who would have thunk that.


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 28, 2018)

Do they still do the topless darts on that channel from ages ago - maybe they can go and get a new job there.

I remember when they played some of the games on ice rinks also.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 28, 2018)

As a father of a 11 year old girl, and therefore maybe possibly a bit over sensitive to this issue,  I approve of any measure that encourages women and girls to aim for something bit more than looking nice to please men. As a hell of a lot of media images kind of promotes this. 

There is a massive issue with teenage girls nowadays leading to mental health issues, a lot fuelled by traditional and social media, for girls to try and be seen to look attractive and having a great life. And any initiative that moves us away from that is fine by me. 

Fully agree that darts girls is not the most pressing issue society has to address to try with regards to equality, and that this was led by the broadcasters who are mostly worried about the profit they can make from the sport, as opposed to equality for all. But as they say, every little helps.  I am sure the darts girls who make their living from basically looking pretty will find a lot of other avenues to exploit in todays society so I can't feel that sorry for them to be honest.


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## adam6177 (Jan 29, 2018)

so what about those girls who enjoy the job and want to do it?  Do we take away their freedom of choice for a line of work that they choose because someone deems it to be un-PC?

If you dont like it turn over, no-one is forcing you to watch it.  I swear these days people are making it their lives to find what they deem to be un-PC things and then ruin it for those who do.

Absolute madness.


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2018)

What about those cabin crew at the Race To Dubai presentation? They donâ€™t look scantily clad. Are we getting rid of them too?
Is it what they are wearing thatâ€™s the problem or because they are female?
Is it that women have no place in a male sporting environment?
Are we or should we be heading for segregation? Or do we have to have at least one token woman at a male only event and vice versa (as long as said woman is covered up).
Is it that the girls look too good and we canâ€™t trust ourselves and feel we shouldnâ€™t look?
Should we be ashamed that we find others attractive?
Will we be banning all such activity? Are those two blokes on â€œ8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdownâ€ out of a job too?
Is head to toe total cover up the answer?
Is this more about the insecurities of men than the girls in question?
Are feminists just jealous?

Before we start banning things and embarking on significant social change these questions and more need to be answered.


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## Crazyface (Jan 29, 2018)

These PC morons will not be happy until we're all walking around in berkas. Sex will not longer take place between people of any sex for fear of cries of "violation!" 
We in the countries on Britain are free to express ourselves how we wish. If these people wish to restrict EVERYTHING and EVERYONE there are countries that allow this. Clear off to them. You'll soon be back!. Shut up and let people do what they want!


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			These PC morons will not be happy until we're all walking around in berkas. Sex will not longer take place between people of any sex for fear of cries of "violation!" 
We in the countries on Britain are free to express ourselves how we wish. If these people wish to restrict EVERYTHING and EVERYONE there are countries that allow this. Clear off to them. You'll soon be back!. Shut up and let people do what they want!
		
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A ban on sex is also very environmentally friendly. Stop that and within 100 years the planet will be saved.


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## User20205 (Jan 29, 2018)

I thought HKâ€™s post was very considered and maybe shed a different perspective on this, itâ€™s increased my understanding of any potential issue.
Did no one else read it? Or did the last 3 posters just choose to ignore it??

I also think that we have to remember that no one is banning this. The governing body is choosing to end this practice.


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2018)

therod said:



			I thought HKâ€™s post was very considered and maybe shed a different perspective on this, itâ€™s increased my understanding of any potential issue.
Did no one else read it? Or did the last 3 posters just choose to ignore it??
		
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I read it. I have read all the posts on here.
i agree it was considered. I find myself asking questions though as highlighted in my post. If we are embarking on significant social change (and the darts thing is a very small example of this) then we need to know why.
I also found myself thinking about the freedom HKâ€™s daughter will have in her future and indeed the freedom we will all have.
We have been down this route before. The Victorians famously covered up the lower part of piano legs because they thought they looked like ladies ankles. It didnâ€™t work then and it wonâ€™t work now. People will always strive for freedom and self expression.
If people want this kind of thing stopped they have to give good reasons why. Calling it tacky is not good enough. Blackpool is tacky (sorry Blackpool) but people still go.
I am open to persuasion but I will always default to freedom of the individual.


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

therod said:



			I thought HKâ€™s post was very considered and maybe shed a different perspective on this, itâ€™s increased my understanding of any potential issue.
Did no one else read it? Or did the last 3 posters just choose to ignore it??

I also think that we have to remember that no one is banning this. The governing body is choosing to end this practice.
		
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I sort of agree with HK but, equally, would ask the question "are the darts girls sex workers? No, of course they are not. Not every beautiful person is blessed with brains, and to some its the opportunity to earn money using an asset that isn't a degree in astro-physics. Some might even want to be seen as 'models.' Do I think any less of someone who chooses to be a 'walk on' for the darts? No, its just a job. Scantily dressed, e.g. at the boxing, mmm not so keen.

They are adults. They have a choice. Should society judge them for doing what they do? Should society look to create a 'proper' lifestyle choice?

Totally agree with the point that there is pressure on young girls to be size 6-8. That is really sad. We should be saying be happy who/what you are. Beauty is more than skin deep.


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## Robster59 (Jan 29, 2018)

I'm surprised it's taken this long for this subject to raise it's head.  It's all very well saying that some girls want to do it but they only do it in the hope of being spotted for something else.  What would be everyone's reaction if the girls were replaced by equally scantily clad blokes?  It's window dressing but it doesn't add to the spectacle.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 29, 2018)

therod said:



			I thought HKâ€™s post was very considered and maybe shed a different perspective on this, itâ€™s increased my understanding of any potential issue.
Did no one else read it? Or did the last 3 posters just choose to ignore it??

I also think that we have to remember that no one is banning this. The governing body is choosing to end this practice.
		
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It was indeed well put and quite measured... However, maybe, a little narrow minded from someone who in the past has advised he doesn't have issues with sweary words... Whereas an old knuckle dragger like me thinks that's all very much part and parcel of the downward spiral of society... Whilst I am quite relaxed with ladies bits on display... After all should we stop going to the beach, swimming pool or even art galleries for fear of wanton displays of flesh...


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			It was indeed well put and quite measured... However, maybe, a little narrow minded from someone who in the past has advised he doesn't have issues with sweary words... Whereas an old knuckle dragger like me thinks that's all very much part and parcel of the downward spiral of society... Whilst I am quite relaxed with ladies bits on display... After all should we stop going to the beach, swimming pool or even art galleries for fear of wanton displays of flesh...
		
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Good point. His snide digs after being pulled for swearing are quite immature and smack of double standards?


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## Beezerk (Jan 29, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			What would be everyone's reaction if the girls were replaced by equally scantily clad blokes?
		
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I guess it would be absolutely fine. Look at Graham Norton every Saturday night, making sexual innuendo jokes about other fellas all the time, all perfectly acceptable and no one blinks an eyelid. They'll be banning those Diet Coke adverts next with the hunky window cleaner ffs


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			They'll be banning those Diet Coke adverts next with the hunky window cleaner ffs 

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That's me out of a job then...


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## Robster59 (Jan 29, 2018)

Here you go
Advertisment


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## User20205 (Jan 29, 2018)

Iâ€™m very much on the fence (cop out ) but it is worth remembering that it hasnâ€™t been banned, no one is banning anything. 
I do think that if itâ€™s a choice and if itâ€™s in context, itâ€™s ok. The darts is in context......but also part of me thinks that if it does reinforce a stereotype and does potentially narrow the horizon of someoneâ€™s aspiration then it can be questioned.
The darts governing body obviously believe it to be at odds with where they want their image to be.

I also believe we run the risk of potentially making society really sanitised  & beige


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## IanM (Jan 29, 2018)

I don't see a need for it.

But, I also don't understand how it  can "narrow the horizon of someoneâ€™s aspiration."   if that were the case, every bloomin reality TV Show, Talent(less) Contest and the entire programming output of E4 should be banned!


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## Robster59 (Jan 29, 2018)

IanM said:



			I don't see a need for it.

But, I also don't understand how it  can "narrow the horizon of someoneâ€™s aspiration."   if that were the case, every bloomin reality TV Show, Talent(less) Contest and the entire programming output of E4 should be banned!
		
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Is that such a bad thing? :ears:


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 29, 2018)

Robster has a point there 

They have just had a talk on R2 about this. It softened my stance a little. The lady talking about it, she was one of the Walk On women, talked about it as just another modelling job. When you think of it like that, is it any different to other modelling? Interesting one.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 29, 2018)

therod said:



			Iâ€™m very much on the fence (cop out ) but it is worth remembering that it hasnâ€™t been banned, no one is banning anything. 
I do think that if itâ€™s a choice and if itâ€™s in context, itâ€™s ok. The darts is in context......but also part of me thinks that if it does reinforce a stereotype and does potentially narrow the horizon of someoneâ€™s aspiration then it can be questioned.
*The darts governing body obviously believe it to be at odds with where they want their image to be.
*
I also believe we run the risk of potentially making society really sanitised  & beige 

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Iâ€™d be very surprised if itâ€™s darts decision. Or at least one made for morale reasons. Maybe a tactical one thinking itâ€™ll gain them ,ore sponsorhip or support from sky. But I doubt very much that they really think â€œwe better do something for these poor womenâ€.....


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## IanM (Jan 29, 2018)

Precisely.

And anyway.... when they have the Womens' Comp at Lakeside, do they walk on with Women, or half dressed men?  (Please say, as I don't watch darts)


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## MegaSteve (Jan 29, 2018)

Well, the darts folk would get a whole lot more respect from me... 
If they dropped sponsorship from on-line betting companies...


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## User20205 (Jan 29, 2018)

IanM said:



			I don't see a need for it.

But, I also don't understand how it  can "narrow the horizon of someoneâ€™s aspiration."   if that were the case, every bloomin reality TV Show, Talent(less) Contest and the entire programming output of E4 should be banned!
		
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Yep, thatâ€™s a valid point. Agree with papas also, itâ€™s probably sponsor driven. Bring back Embassy!!!! 

Theyâ€™re not even in their pants, the one I saw had a frock on. Itâ€™s PC gone mad! Maybe we should have gender ambiguous walk on people?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			It was indeed well put and quite measured... However, maybe, a little narrow minded from someone who in the past has advised he doesn't have issues with sweary words... Whereas an old knuckle dragger like me thinks that's all very much part and parcel of the downward spiral of society... Whilst I am quite relaxed with ladies bits on display... After all should we stop going to the beach, swimming pool or even art galleries for fear of wanton displays of flesh...
		
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I suspect you meant to use 'hypocritical' instead of 'narrow minded'.  And it is the context in which womens bits are seen that is important.  The 'oh you banned this, what next....' is one used a lot by the media to get people worked up/angry/afraid, but rarely stands up to logical scrutiny.  

Not 100% sure why swearing is equated with my views on a society which perpetuates the image of women needing to be attractive to be popular.  We have all become desensitised to it as it is so constant, it is in every paper, most advertising, a lot of music and other popular art forms.  There is nothing wrong with women or men using their looks to advance themselves and best of luck to them.  It is just the constant bombardment of this and the virtual lack of any 'non hot' aspiration role models for young girls that I find depressing.

I'd hope that just because I find it vaguely sad/ironic that I could not even use a word that was in a 12a film I took my daughter to see yesterday as it is classed on here to be offensive, or words that are in The Times on a regular basis, or words that Ed Milliband uses in podcasts, does not mean I can express my worry on the type of society we seem to be bringing our children up in. People are full of contradictions anyway.  But what I do is shield my daughter as much as possible from bad language, but know full well that she probably hears most of it in the school yard. Where as it is impossible to shield kids from the the proliferation of women being judged on their looks.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Iâ€™d be very surprised if itâ€™s darts decision. Or at least one made for morale reasons. Maybe a tactical one thinking itâ€™ll gain them ,ore sponsorhip or support from sky. But I doubt very much that they really think â€œwe better do something for these poor womenâ€.....
		
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As I posted earlier, it was led by the broadcasting companies as they want to change the image of the sport, no doubt to get more people watching/subscribers etc.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 29, 2018)

It seems to me that, outside of major mixed "events" such as the Olympics etc, if you are watching sport on prime time TV you are more likely to see women presented as eye candy than competitors. That can't be a good thing.


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			It seems to me that, outside of major mixed "events" such as the Olympics etc, if you are watching sport on prime time TV you are more likely to see women presented as eye candy than competitors. That can't be a good thing.
		
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Is there a reason why darts is not a mixed sport? Genuine question.
Would it make any difference to this issue if it was?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 29, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Is there a reason why darts is not a mixed sport? Genuine question.
Would it make any difference to this issue if it was?
		
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I had this discussion with someone the other day. No reason why women are not playing either darts or snooker to the same level as men. No strength or speed issues to deal with.

Reality is at the moment it is not mixed because there are no women good enough to compete.


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			It seems to me that, outside of major mixed "events" such as the Olympics etc, if you are watching sport on prime time TV you are more likely to see women presented as eye candy than competitors. That can't be a good thing.
		
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Actually the Olympics is a good example. Why is it always women who present the winning athletes with flowers (albeit usually dressed in national dress or similar). As the winning men seem to get flowers these days too, it canâ€™t be that flowers are seen as feminine.
Maybe there is a case for a wholesale clear out of unnecessary people at sporting events? Or would that impact negatively on the razzmatazz?


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## Slime (Jan 29, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			So the PDC are banning walk on girls 


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/darts/42841620

*Worlds gone mad*.
		
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Couldn't agree more.



Liverpoolphil said:



*Its the right move and the right step forward , itâ€™s something that belongs in the dark ages* - there is no reason for them to be three beyond watching old or fat men perv all over her ( Hence why Barnevld is complaining ) - I suspect if they walked on with two guys they wouldnâ€™t be throwing the toys out if that stopped. *Hopefully all the sports will follow their lead.*

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Couldn't agree less.
What about the girls' point of view and their impending loss of income?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			As I posted earlier, it was led by the broadcasting companies as they want to change the image of the sport, no doubt to get more people watching/subscribers etc.
		
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Shame really, I used to enjoy watching Bill Wobblyneck quaffing 10 pints of lager and staggering around the snooker table.
The good ol days eh.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 29, 2018)

Sex sells, that is a fact. Men like good looking women, that is just the way it is. Be honest, how many men on here with female partners picked one they didn't find attractive?


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## USER1999 (Jan 29, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Sex sells, that is a fact. Men like good looking women, that is just the way it is. Be honest, how many men on here with female partners picked one they didn't find attractive?
		
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Who the heck is going to admit to that one, even if true?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 29, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Who the heck is going to admit to that one, even if true?
		
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There are bound to be a few Chris just for the sake of arguing!!


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## User20205 (Jan 29, 2018)

drive4show said:



			There are bound to be a few Chris just for the sake of arguing!!
		
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Maybe some didnâ€™t have a choice? Youâ€™ve seen the undateables, some couples just end up together cos no one else will have em


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 29, 2018)

In view of all this enlightenment, one can only assume the LPGA will be issuing guidelines to its members regarding a more demure dress code; I wonder why there has been no similar moral outrage over the outfits that a lot of LPGA players choose to wear?  They're certainly not necessary in order to play golf, and are a lot more revealing that the darts walk on girls.  Thoughts anybody?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			In view of all this enlightenment, one can only assume the LPGA will be issuing guidelines to its members regarding a more demure dress code; I wonder why there has been no similar moral outrage over the outfits that a lot of LPGA players choose to wear?  They're certainly not necessary in order to play golf, and are a lot more revealing that the darts walk on girls.  Thoughts anybody?
		
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I believe the LPGA did release some dress guidelines the ladies had to adhere too and it included less revealing outfits

Edit - here it is 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.go...ets-strict-new-dress-code-regulations-players


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## Papas1982 (Jan 29, 2018)

The one argument I never understand is the one where people suggest that young girls are pressured to be x size and that it is required for success. Iâ€™m orerry sure that the richest women in the world donâ€™t get judge by their looks first.

Some catwalk models are stick thin and thatâ€™s unhealthy, but I strongly disagree with the idea that we should champion being happy in their size be that big or small if itâ€™s unhealthy. In this country more and more people are over weight. O site you levels in school are through the roof. 

On social media now I see more attractive women picked apart by their peers than those that are overweight. 

The girls on the darts and most women on â€œcelebrityâ€ tv are all healthy weights. It May be sad that theyâ€™re more famous for their looks than anything else, but they still portray a healthy image, which imo is a good thing. 

Iâ€™ve two young daughters, and not for a second will I be telling them that they need to be pretty to succeed, but Iâ€™ll also not tell them that health and appearance arenâ€™t important. Because they are.


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## Slime (Jan 30, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			The one argument I never understand is the one where people suggest that young girls are pressured to be x size and that it is required for success. Iâ€™m *orerry* sure that the richest women in the world donâ€™t get judge by their looks first.

Some catwalk models are stick thin and thatâ€™s unhealthy, but I strongly disagree with the idea that we should champion being happy in their size be that big or small if itâ€™s unhealthy. In this country more and more people are over weight.* O site you levels in school are through the roof. *

On social media now I see more attractive women picked apart by their peers than those that are overweight. 

The girls on the darts and most women on â€œcelebrityâ€ tv are all healthy weights. It May be sad that theyâ€™re more famous for their looks than anything else, but they still portray a healthy image, which imo is a good thing. 

Iâ€™ve two young daughters, and not for a second will I be telling them that they need to be pretty to succeed, but Iâ€™ll also not tell them that health and appearance arenâ€™t important. Because they are.
		
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## Crazyface (Jan 30, 2018)

IanM said:



			I don't see a need for it.

But, I also don't understand how it  can "narrow the horizon of someoneâ€™s aspiration."   if that were the case, every bloomin reality TV Show, Talent(less) Contest and *the entire programming output of E4 should be banned!*

Click to expand...


If that happened I'd throw my TV out. It is the most watched TV station at our house!!!!


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2018)

....yes, and it doesn't stop me worrying about your welfare CF!!!


I'm listened to the arguments on this and I've probably changed my view.... while I don't think it does any harm, I am left thinking about the "why?"   And other than "they look nice" there's no reason for it. Catwalk models are showing off the clothes. 

Mind you, the world has gone mad.  There was a clip on the radio last night about a woman on Dancing on Ice making a remark about her male partner that, if made the other way round, would have got the bloke sacked from the show.  But his way round was ok (apparently)


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## Papas1982 (Jan 30, 2018)

Slime said:








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Ooooopsies!

obesity.


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## Slime (Jan 30, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Ooooopsies!

obesity.
		
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:thup:


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## RollinThunder (Jan 30, 2018)

I imagine that it's some sort of attempt at "professionalising" the sport of darts even further. Entertainment value seems to be less important nowadays, and earning revenue has become the main focus point. I've been to a PDC darts event, and it was carnage. Hundreds, possibly thousands hammered and coked off their face. Plus, a lot of players put back some serious drink before they play. The BDO Lakeside was even foolish enough to show a player necking bottles of Bud during a break in the live final. My interpretation of it is that the PDC are trying to clean up their act. Possibly try and lure more lucrative broadcasters by being more family friendly. Maybe make darts a family day out, rather than for stag do's and lad's nights out. World Champtionship final on prime-time TV even? Walk-on girls are the first step. 

It was well-known the mainstream broadcasters got fed-up with the overweight, hard-drinking and smoking darts players on their TV screens during the 80s. That's why the sport went up the swanny in the late 80s, early 90s. "Blood on the Carpet" is a really good documentary on YouTube if you have the time. 

If the girls want to do it, then why stop them. Young, pretty girls make money through modelling. I don't see any difference in being a walk-on girl at all. Nobody forces them into doing the job. The aren't being made into an object at all. Men, and even women to some extent like to see pretty girls. And believe it or not, a lot of women like to look pretty, and like to show it off. If walk-on girls are such a no-no in this day and age, then what about catalogue models, magazine covers, etc. Aren't they hired purely because they look good? 

I don't see why people are saying that walk-on girls aren't needed in this day and age. Nothing's needed really is it? Apart from food, water, and oxygen. But, some things are nice to have. And walk-on girls are one of them.


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## bobmac (Jan 30, 2018)

Whether you like it or not, sex sells


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## Dasit (Jan 30, 2018)

I do wonder what the end goal for all this political correctness is.


Is the country becoming a better place for it? 

I actually find the most bigoted and prejudice people are those who push political correctness and liberal views in general.



Anyone who listened to Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 yesterday, there was a great discussion.


I found the lady who argued for banning walk on girls was unreasonable, demeaning and just general nasty person.

The walk on girl herself was well spoken, put her case for doing what she does very well and came across great in general.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09p9s5s

From 1.50 onward is the discussion


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## Slime (Jan 30, 2018)

Dasit said:



*I do wonder what the end goal for all this political correctness is.

Is the country becoming a better place for it? *

I actually find the most bigoted and prejudice people are those who push political correctness and liberal views in general.
		
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I feel as though we are now living in a post banter/post joke world ....................... and I don't like it.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 30, 2018)

Dasit said:



			I do wonder what the end goal for all this political correctness is.


Is the country becoming a better place for it?
		
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Undoubtedly, just compare current attitudes towards gender, race, sexuality compared to the seventies. The bigots have railed against so-called "political correctness" every step of the way but our society is vastly improved as a result. I've said it before but if it takes "political correctness" to start people treating each other equally then it can only be a good thing.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 30, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Undoubtedly, just compare current attitudes towards gender, race, sexuality compared to the seventies. The bigots have railed against so-called "political correctness" every step of the way but our society is vastly improved as a result. I've said it before but if it takes "political correctness" to start people treating each other equally then it can only be a good thing.
		
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Not sure I agree, some things have certainly improved but other things are definitely worse due to the PC brigade.


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## Beezerk (Jan 31, 2018)

Dunno if it's already been mentioned but according to a darts fan where I'm working, they are only banning the walk on girls from live tv, all the other events will still have them.
Kinda odd.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Dunno if it's already been mentioned but according to a darts fan where I'm working, they are only banning the walk on girls from live tv, all the other events will still have them.
Kinda odd.
		
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Not really as the ban was instigated by the broadcast companies. So if the tournament is not being broadcast I suspect they do not give a monkeys.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2018)

Dasit said:



*I do wonder what the end goal for all this political correctness is.*

Is the country becoming a better place for it? 

I actually find the most bigoted and prejudice people are those who push political correctness and liberal views in general.

Anyone who listened to Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 yesterday, there was a great discussion.

I found the lady who argued for banning walk on girls was unreasonable, demeaning and just general nasty person.

The walk on girl herself was well spoken, put her case for doing what she does very well and came across great in general.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09p9s5s

From 1.50 onward is the discussion
		
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More equality, increased tolerance and respect for all?  

As for the country becoming a better place then I suppose your viewpoint will depend a lot on your experiences and your values.


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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2018)

I do wonder why political correctness has got a bad name? If someone said treated with fairness or equality or justice we'd all clap. Its the same thing, surely?
And if someone was offended on someone else's behalf are they not leaping to someone's defence?

Yes, there are some fine lines between offended on someone else's behalf and positive discrimination but sometimes that line may well have to be crossed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2018)

If Political Correctness means that I must think twice before saying something that may be inappropriate or that might offend or upset someone - then all well and good - I need that moment reflection on whether I have to express my feelings or opinion in quite the way I was going to.


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## Lazkir (Jan 31, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I do wonder why political correctness has got a bad name? If someone said treated with fairness or equality or justice we'd all clap. Its the same thing, surely?
And if someone was offended on someone else's behalf are they not leaping to someone's defence?

Yes, there are some fine lines between offended on someone else's behalf and positive discrimination but sometimes that line may well have to be crossed.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If Political Correctness means that I must think twice before saying something that may be inappropriate or that might offend or upset someone - then all well and good - I need that moment reflection on whether I have to express my feelings or opinion in quite the way I was going to.
		
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I think it's more than that though. To me the PC crowd seems to be more about searching for, and finding any way possible that someone, somewhere 'may' be offended and therefore jumping all over what you've just said or done in order to have the moral high ground, or to belittle you. Therefore becoming even more Un-PC than you ever were in the first place!
A lot of the problem also appears to be context. If you were to write down some of the things you do everyday and then have some SJW go over it in black and white, they would probably want to lock you up. 
They just can't seem to apply a common sense outlook to the real world as opposed to their Utopian ideals.


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## IanM (Jan 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If Political Correctness means that I must think twice before saying something that may be inappropriate or that might offend or upset someone -
		
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I completely agree with your view about thinking about the feelings of others, it's only good manners.  BUT, it is now impossible to legislate for what offends these days, or "might" offend someone. Added to that, there are legions of idiots sitting around waiting to be offended.

I wouldn't go an watch darts of you paid me.  I don't see the need for walk on girls, or boys...   but, Hobbit hit the nail on the head.... Being offended on someone else's behalf not offence, it is one person imposing their view on another.   (which is what they are claiming is wrong)  Ironic eh?


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## MegaSteve (Jan 31, 2018)

Forty or so years back there was a proper old kerfuffle when girls started wanting to go topless on our beaches... It was quite the norm elsewhere in Europe with them being a whole lot more relaxed about the female form... Eventually, after a while, common sense prevailed and ladies could go topless without fear of causing a stir... Now it looks like we're looking at turning the clocks back in our outlook...


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 31, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Forty or so years back there was a proper old kerfuffle when girls started wanting to go topless on our beaches... It was quite the norm elsewhere in Europe with them being a whole lot more relaxed about the female form... Eventually, after a while, common sense prevailed and ladies could go topless without fear of causing a stir... Now it looks like we're looking at turning the clocks back in our outlook...
		
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This is the second post on this thread that draws comparisons with what women wear to the beach but it is irrelevant to the debate.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 31, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is the second post on this thread that draws comparisons with what women wear to the beach but it is irrelevant to the debate.
		
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Possibly... But its about perception... And how everyone in life is judged, all too often, simply by their attire...


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## fundy (Jan 31, 2018)

where darts leads, formula one follows........


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2018)

Lazkir said:



			I think it's more than that though. To me the PC crowd seems to be more about searching for, and finding any way possible that someone, somewhere 'may' be offended and therefore jumping all over what you've just said or done in order to have the moral high ground, or to belittle you. Therefore becoming even more Un-PC than you ever were in the first place!
A lot of the problem also appears to be context. If you were to write down some of the things you do everyday and then have some SJW go over it in black and white, they would probably want to lock you up. 
They just can't seem to apply a common sense outlook to the real world as opposed to their Utopian ideals.
		
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You are right about context.  Some people, egged on by the media, look to be offended.  And some people, again egged on by other parts of the media whose job it is to keep their readers angry, claim any change is due to changing values in society is PC gone mad.  

Some people get too offended, some people resist any change, hopefully societal values will evolve somwhere in the middle.  Although as society is increasingly polarising, that seems more doubtful by the day.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Forty or so years back there was a proper old kerfuffle when girls started wanting to go topless on our beaches... It was quite the norm elsewhere in Europe with them being a whole lot more relaxed about the female form... Eventually, after a while, common sense prevailed and ladies could go topless without fear of causing a stir... *Now it looks like we're looking at turning the clocks back in our outlook...*

Click to expand...

No one is trying to stop women going topless on beaches.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 31, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			No one is trying to stop women going topless on beaches.
		
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No... But you are going towards giving folk, who wish to be judgemental, a stronger voice....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 31, 2018)

I hate to break this news but...........F1 have dropped the "grid girls" for this coming season.


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## Beezerk (Jan 31, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really as the ban was instigated by the broadcast companies. So if the tournament is not being broadcast I suspect they do not give a monkeys.
		
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You mate be right, but all the internet articles and radio news Iâ€™ve come across have said it was the PDC who decided to bring in the ban.


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is the second post on this thread that draws comparisons with what women wear to the beach but it is irrelevant to the debate.
		
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Why - how does the location being a beach alter correctness?


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I hate to break this news but...........F1 have dropped the "grid girls" for this coming season.
		
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I wonder if that means we wont see this in 2018?


[video=youtube;vS2zyTZspsI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS2zyTZspsI[/video]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2018)

IanM said:



			I completely agree with your view about thinking about the feelings of others, it's only good manners.  BUT, it is now impossible to legislate for what offends these days, or "might" offend someone. Added to that, there are legions of idiots sitting around waiting to be offended.

I wouldn't go an watch darts of you paid me.  I don't see the need for walk on girls, or boys...   but, Hobbit hit the nail on the head.... Being offended on someone else's behalf not offence, it is one person imposing their view on another.   (which is what they are claiming is wrong)  Ironic eh?
		
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If I say something and someone is offended - I will not argue - I will apologise and determine to not say it again.  In my limited experience of 'getting it badly wrong' on reflection I find that I need not have said what I said in the way I said it.  But where it was *honestly *not at all obvious to me that I might offend or upset someone with what I have said - then I simply learn from the experience.  I have never found a situation where I could not have used different language to express the same thing.


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## IanM (Jan 31, 2018)

Precisely Mr Hogan......  It is the right thing to do... 

This thread concerns something that some people find offensive and so do not.  Therein lies the difficulty.  Some people (men and women) will find some  jobs/activities perfectly acceptable to themselves and will do them because that it their choice.  Some other people find that role offensive/demeaning etc etc and want it banned.

And at some point at the margin,  whose personal choice overrides someone else's... that's the issue to me.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 31, 2018)

drdel said:



			Why - how does the location being a beach alter correctness?
		
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Are they holding darts events at the beach?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 31, 2018)

fundy said:



			where darts leads, formula one follows........
		
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Seen quite a few tweets about these decisions. Everyone saying they are daft, not seen a single tweet in favour.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 31, 2018)

Surely we are not basing what decisions are correct on what people think on Twitter &#128561;&#128561;


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 31, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surely we are not basing what decisions are correct on what people think on Twitter &#128561;&#128561;
		
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Who says it's the right decision?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 31, 2018)

Any decision.


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2018)

Confused.

Ladies parading at a Darts venue, motorsport event, Cheerleaders are bad and demeaning.

Female dancers scantily clad on Strictly, and other 'light' entertainments shows, 'pop' concerts etc are Ok as is modelling ??

Why can't we treat all our fellow human beings with respect and civility?


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## User20205 (Jan 31, 2018)

drdel said:



			Confused.

Ladies parading at a Darts venue, motorsport event, Cheerleaders are bad and demeaning.

Female dancers scantily clad on Strictly, and other 'light' entertainments shows, 'pop' concerts etc are Ok as is modelling ??

Why can't we treat all our fellow human beings with respect and civility?
		
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I have no real opinion either way, but I can see the difference between the above, a beach etc etc 
Itâ€™s not about the clothing or lack of, the darts girls are fully clothed.  itâ€™s about the purpose behind the existence of walk on girls, grid girls and the like. FDâ€™s point about the only women in an official capacity @ a sporting event outside the Olympics being eye candy is spot on. Itâ€™s nothing to do with PC gone mad, nothing to do with banning anything. Itâ€™s about providing aspirational examples for young women.  I get this, but itâ€™s more easily provided by showing more womenâ€™s sport on TV outside the Olympics.


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## Dasit (Jan 31, 2018)

therod said:



			I get this, but itâ€™s more easily provided by showing more womenâ€™s sport on TV outside the Olympics.
		
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Darts and snooker are mixed sports. Open to both men and women to compete in the world champs.

Just women don't tend to qualify, the PC line is gender is a social construct so not sure why it is 100% men, as both sexes should be equally capable of throwing darts at a board.


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## User20205 (Jan 31, 2018)

Dasit said:



			Darts and snooker are mixed sports. Open to both men and women to compete in the world champs.

Just women don't tend to qualify, the PC line is gender is a social construct so not sure why it is 100% men, as both sexes should be equally capable of throwing darts at a board.
		
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Are darts & snooker even sports?  
Listen Iâ€™m no great advocate of womenâ€™s sport but the point about it never being on is valid. If participation is fuelled partly by seeing sport on TV where do girls get their inspiration from? Maybe the ladies European tour or the RFU/FA should ensure their womenâ€™s product is free to air, and push for it to be shown. Iâ€™m all for equal rights for walk on boys, if it was a career choice, Iâ€™d apply :thup:


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## Dasit (Jan 31, 2018)

therod said:



			Are darts & snooker even sports?  
Listen Iâ€™m no great advocate of womenâ€™s sport but the point about it never being on is valid. If participation is fuelled partly by seeing sport on TV where do girls get their inspiration from? Maybe the ladies European tour or the RFU/FA should ensure their womenâ€™s product is free to air, and push for it to be shown. Iâ€™m all for equal rights for walk on boys, if it was a career choice, Iâ€™d apply :thup:
		
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Is it politically correct to say that majority of women really don't like watching sport.

Should we manufacture supply, subsidise female sport on TV to pander to the idea that women will start participating?


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## User20205 (Jan 31, 2018)

Dasit said:



			Is it politically correct to say that majority of women really don't like watching sport.

Should we manufacture supply, subsidise female sport on TV to pander to the idea that women will start participating?
		
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First bit, dunno, itâ€™s maybe a generalisation. 
Iâ€™d watch womenâ€™s golf & rugby if it was free to air. Either way, you fellas could have your walk on girls then as one argument against would be negated


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2018)

therod said:



			I have no real opinion either way, but I can see the difference between the above, a beach etc etc 
Itâ€™s not about the clothing or lack of, the darts girls are fully clothed.  itâ€™s about the purpose behind the existence of walk on girls, grid girls and the like. FDâ€™s point about the only women in an official capacity @ a sporting event outside the Olympics being eye candy is spot on. Itâ€™s nothing to do with PC gone mad, nothing to do with banning anything. Itâ€™s about providing aspirational examples for young women.  I get this, but itâ€™s more easily provided by showing more womenâ€™s sport on TV outside the Olympics.
		
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You do know that there are females at the top of F1.


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## User20205 (Jan 31, 2018)

drdel said:



			You do know that there are females at the top of F1.
		
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What actually racing, no donâ€™t watch it. Who are they ?
Iâ€™m not advocating banning/removing anything. Just offering a contrary opinion. Ignore it if u like, and continue with the persecution complex


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## ADB (Jan 31, 2018)

Personally Iâ€™m in favour of  the removal of the F1 girls - there was no point in them being there.  If the purpose is for the F1 owners to promote a sport with less gender stereotypes - letâ€™s hope they actively encourage more female drivers, mechanics and technicians to back this stance up.


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## IanM (Jan 31, 2018)

Dasit said:



			Is it politically correct to say that majority of women really don't like watching sport.

Should we manufacture supply, subsidise female sport on TV to pander to the idea that women will start participating?
		
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Whether or not itâ€™s politically correct, l am pretty sure itâ€™s not mathematically correct. 


The numbers of women watching at major sports events seems much higher than 30 years ago.  Improved seating at football has helped, always been big numbers of women at rugby and cricket.  I was at Augusta last time (plug..sorry) loads of women there.  Went to Lodon Olympics, crowds were half and half.

Tv is plugging womensâ€™ sports recently, after decades of ignoring it.  So give it a break?  Some is good, some isnâ€™t.  I do notice criticism of quality is usually met with howls of â€œsexist,â€ which ironically is the opposite of what it is!  

Sports players and get criticised....itâ€™s in the job description! (Listening to post footy phone in on radio...no punches being pulled!)

None of which matters in the debate about peopleâ€™s role in a sports event being purely decorative!  On writing it like that, it strikes me as daft!  But, do I have the right to stop someone else doing it if they want?  Probably not.


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## Lazkir (Jan 31, 2018)

drdel said:



			You do know that there are females at the top of F1.
		
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Really? Not a massive F1 fan, but the only woman I knew that was close to breaking into the top echelon was that woman that died a few years ago. German Lady I think.. 

With a wife that I adore and two grown up girls, I'm massively pro equality. But not to the point that reason  goes out of the window just to prove a point.


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## IanM (Feb 1, 2018)

Lazkir said:



			Really? Not a massive F1 fan, but the only woman I knew that was close to breaking into the top echelon was that woman that died a few years ago. German Lady I think.
		
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I thought the point referred to Board Room/non driving.  Plenty of senior women working in Woking with my mate


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## adam6177 (Feb 1, 2018)

Who knew that 2018 would be the year that women start to be come more oppressed..... take away their freedom of choice in an effort to be PC.  How very sad.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 1, 2018)

Claire Williams, daughter of Frank is either in charge or number 2 at the Williams F1 team. I've seen her interviewed and she comes across as a hugely impressive individual. I suspect she is the most senior female currently in the sport although I don't know that as fact.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 1, 2018)

IanM said:



			I thought the point referred to Board Room/non driving.  Plenty of senior women working in Woking with my mate
		
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Yes but to the vast majority of the viewing population of F1, apart from one or two commentators, the only women they see are there to just look pretty.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 1, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Who knew that 2018 would be the year that women start to be come more oppressed..... take away their freedom of choice in an effort to be PC.  How very sad.
		
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#mansplaining


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 1, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Seen quite a few tweets about these decisions. Everyone saying they are daft, not seen a single tweet in favour.
		
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#echochamber


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## Lazkir (Feb 1, 2018)

IanM said:



			I thought the point referred to Board Room/non driving.  Plenty of senior women working in Woking with my mate
		
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Ahh fair enough, I read it in the wrong context..  I do know that F1 was trying to get it's first female driver not so long ago. Probably still is.


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## IanM (Feb 1, 2018)

Its' a funny one, there are some excellent women drivers about... remember Sabine Schmitz, overtaking motorbikes in a transit on the Nurburgring on Top Gear!  VBH is no mug either... but F1 is different gravy and hard enough to blokes to get in... and stop watches don't lie so no reason why one shouldn't get there. 

I read a spat in Twitter last night, one of the ladies who lost her job was getting pretty angry.  A "male feminist" (as he called himself) said he didn't want her to be exploited and there were other jobs she could do. .  She asked him if he thought feminism was about any man telling any woman what jobs she "should be doing."   

You can see where this is going....

In other news today, a gallery in Manchester has removed some 400 year old paintings as they are objectifying women.  I guess the book burning starts on Monday.


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## Cherry13 (Feb 1, 2018)

Lazkir said:



			Ahh fair enough, I read it in the wrong context..  I do know that F1 was trying to get it's first female driver not so long ago. Probably still is.
		
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F1 had its first female driver in the 70s. Lella Lombardi actually scored a point or two as well. 

F1 plans are to make the grids more celebratory of the area where they are racing. So you might still see women on the grid, whether they be dancers or performers, or anything else for that matter. But theyâ€™ve just took the approach that grid girls is outdated and doesnâ€™t bring anything of value.  A view I agree with entirely. Sponsors will still likely have models, thereâ€™ll still be plenty of glamorous people around as well.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

I get the whole "women as adornments in sport" is not good, but women telling other women what professions are and are not acceptable in the interests of feminism is just ... &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

From twitter


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## User20205 (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			I get the whole "women as adornments in sport" is not good, but women telling other women what professions are and are not acceptable in the interests of feminism is just ... ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

From twitter
		
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Iâ€™m still on the fence pretty much, but removing grid girls doesnâ€™t automatically increase participation etc there still wonâ€™t be any womenâ€™s sport on TV. Itâ€™s not an either or, why not a both?
It doesnâ€™t sit well me either that you get feminist sympathising men telling women what professions they can do. Doesnâ€™t sound much like feminism to me.


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## adam6177 (Feb 2, 2018)

not sure if anyone saw the darts last night..... the walk on girls were gone, but the cheerleaders were still there dancing in crop tops and tiny skirts at all intervals.

So the outcome of the story is that women are allowed to wear next to nothing as long as its for a profession, but they're not allowed to be moderately dressed for glamour reasoning.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			I get the whole "women as adornments in sport" is not good, but women telling other women what professions are and are not acceptable in the interests of feminism is just ... &#62978;&#62978;&#62978;

From twitter
		
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I am not sure it is purely in the interests of 'feminism', unless you class wanting women to have better role models and better aspirations in life as 'feminism'.  Still, I suppose it's better than calling it PC gone mad. 

You can reduce any societal value judgement down to that if you want and say 'you can't have someone telling someone else what is acceptable or not'.  Where as that is how society evolves, judgements are made on what is or is not acceptable and should be done. It is not the same as saying women can't be lawyers or doctors or cleaners or indeed any job where they are performing a defined skill or task.  Not sure how many pit girls there are globally or darts walk on girls, but I imagine it is not exactly destroying the aspirational career paths of many young women.  

There will still be many many opportunities for attractive men and women to use those attributes to get on in life.  That never will disappear and this is not why this is being done, it isn't an comment on attractive women, it is about the role of women at these type of events and the image that portrays.


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

I do understand the point behind getting rid of the grid girls, and in truth I'm not fussed either way about their inclusion/exclusion. Equally, if a beautiful woman was stood next to a Chippendale on the grid... why not? 

As for role models, I get that and it was certainly something that my previous employer was keen to promote but how can a brain surgeon(role model) make someone who has one GCSE feel equal... or worse still, inferior. My own experience of working with surgeons is they might be some of the brightest people but some of them are short on manners. You don't have to have an IQ of 150 to be a role model.

On a wider note, as the societal norm is being recalibrated do we even know what its being recalibrated to? Is it a constant evolving thing, and will it rebound too far? Who knows.


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2018)

I wonder if there will be any cheer leaders at the Superbowl on Sunday


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## ADB (Feb 2, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I wonder if there will be any cheer leaders at the Superbowl on Sunday
		
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I hope so, talented and athletic gymnasts at the top of their game - aspirational to young women I would argue and entertainment for the crowd. If the difference cant be seen between these and the walk-on girls/F1 pit girls, the point has been completely missed.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2018)

Canâ€™t believe there are still people who think this is about clothes. Or that itâ€™s a black and white, right and wrong issue. Itâ€™s not but sadly there seem too few who are able to take a step back and actually think about it.


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## Beezerk (Feb 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			On a wider note, as the societal norm is being recalibrated do we even know what its being recalibrated to? Is it a constant evolving thing, and will it rebound too far? Who knows.
		
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I was having a long and interesting (drunken) political debate recently with a lass who was a big Socialist, I dropped in the suggestion that the Weinstein story would have a greater impact on society in the future. I couldn't really explain why, it was just a hunch I had on the back of how I perceived the media were now reporting certain types of stories.
The snowball effect may be starting, but your'e right, we don't know how far it will go and when it will end, if at all. The seeds are now well and truly planted in the psyche of the general public.


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## Dasit (Feb 2, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Canâ€™t believe there are still people who think this is about clothes. Or that itâ€™s a black and white, right and wrong issue. Itâ€™s not but sadly there seem too few who are able to take a step back and actually think about it.
		
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It is about people having the right to do what profession they please, that is of course within the law.

It is not for one group of people to define what is or is not acceptable for consenting adults to do.

Personal freedoms are vital. These women can earn a lot of money using their best assets, they should be allowed to do it.


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## Crazyface (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Is there a reason why darts is not a mixed sport? Genuine question.
Would it make any difference to this issue if it was?
		
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Excellent question!!!!!! Why isn't darts mixed? I used to play in a mixed league and won an individual final against a female "county" player.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Dasit said:



			It is about people having the right to do what profession they please, that is of course within the law.

It is not for one group of people to define what is or is not acceptable for consenting adults to do.

Personal freedoms are vital. These women can earn a lot of money using their best assets, they should be allowed to do it.
		
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Spot on. 
Itâ€™s that point that people seem to be missing. 
ðŸ‘ðŸ»


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## Crazyface (Feb 2, 2018)

IanM said:



			Its' a funny one, there are some excellent women drivers about... remember Sabine Schmitz, overtaking motorbikes in a transit on the Nurburgring on Top Gear!  VBH is no mug either... but F1 is different gravy and hard enough to blokes to get in... and stop watches don't lie so no reason why one shouldn't get there. 

I read a spat in Twitter last night, one of the ladies who lost her job was getting pretty angry.  A "male feminist" (as he called himself) said he didn't want her to be exploited and there were other jobs she could do. .  She asked him if he thought feminism was about any man telling any woman what jobs she "should be doing."   

You can see where this is going....

In other news today, a gallery in Manchester has removed some 400 year old paintings as they are objectifying women.  *I guess the book burning starts on Monday*.
		
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LOL


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2018)

Dasit said:



			It is about people having the right to do what profession they please, that is of course within the law.

It is not for one group of people to define what is or is not acceptable for consenting adults to do.

Personal freedoms are vital. These women can earn a lot of money using their best assets, they should be allowed to do it.
		
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Thatâ€™s definitely one aspect of it and valid points. Now, just as an experiment, see if you can understand the opposing view and why some people might tend to think it outweighs these concerns?


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Canâ€™t believe there are still people who think this is about clothes. Or that itâ€™s a black and white, right and wrong issue. Itâ€™s not but sadly there seem too few who are able to take a step back and actually think about it.
		
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I can't believe you can't believe. Age has to be considered in the debate. Some on here will be 60+ years into living with grid girls, not literarily. 

I've just come off the phone from my ex-boss - I retired last Friday. After 5 months of searching for a replacement they've finally found someone. His first words, "we've found a replacement, and its a woman." I cringed that he felt it was necessary to mention gender. Him and I had a discussion last week on diversity. I don't see gender, nor colour, nor religion, nor physical attributes. I just see personality and ability. However, what I don't like is positive discrimination, i.e. where the second best person gets the job because they fall into a minority.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2018)

Brian, I know that you usually â€œget itâ€ and can see the shades of grey in most debates. Positive discrimination is a bit of a tangent, donâ€™t think I want to go there really, but another nuanced subject I think. Possibly a necessary evil in some circumstances, I donâ€™t know. Another subject I donâ€™t have a firm view on.


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Brian, I know that you usually â€œget itâ€ and can see the shades of grey in most debates. Positive discrimination is a bit of a tangent, donâ€™t think I want to go there really, but another nuanced subject I think. Possibly a necessary evil in some circumstances, I donâ€™t know. Another subject I donâ€™t have a firm view on. 

Click to expand...

â€œPositiveâ€ discrimination is discrimination pure and simple. If you want to address the main issue you canâ€™t resolve it by trying to get two wrongs to make a right. We need to get to a point where people are just people regardless of colour, religion, gender, age etc etc. We will never do that by discriminating in any way or favouring one group over another.
Calling a bad thing â€œpositiveâ€ does not make it good.
Anyone who is in favour of â€œpositiveâ€ discrimination is in favour of discrimination and is part of the problem.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			â€œPositiveâ€ discrimination is discrimination pure and simple. If you want to address the main issue you canâ€™t resolve it by trying to get two wrongs to make a right. We need to get to a point where people are just people regardless of colour, religion, gender, age etc etc. We will never do that by discriminating in any way or favouring one group over another.
Calling a bad thing â€œpositiveâ€ does not make it good.
Anyone who is in favour of â€œpositiveâ€ discrimination is in favour of discrimination and is part of the problem.
		
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Hence my reluctance to go off on this tangent. Some people are unable to think things through and see the shades of grey. Where discrimination already exists, positive discrimination might be a tool to tackle it? Letâ€™s not argue the point but just consider that not everything is black and white.


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hence my reluctance to go off on this tangent. Some people are unable to think things through and see the shades of grey. Where discrimination already exists, positive discrimination might be a tool to tackle it? Letâ€™s not argue the point but just consider that not everything is black and white.
		
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I agree itâ€™s not a black and white issue but you canâ€™t solve discrimination by discriminating. It flies in the face of the non-discrimination argument. It wonâ€™t be solved over night but favouring one group over another will just delay the resolution. â€œPositiveâ€discrimination justifies â€œnegativeâ€ discrimination. Why can you discriminate and I canâ€™t? Is it because you are better than me? Or is it that you want your group favoured over others?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I agree itâ€™s not a black and white issue but you canâ€™t solve discrimination by discriminating. It flies in the face of the non-discrimination argument. It wonâ€™t be solved over night but favouring one group over another will just delay the resolution. â€œPositiveâ€discrimination justifies â€œnegativeâ€ discrimination. Why can you discriminate and I canâ€™t? Is it because you are better than me? Or is it that you want your group favoured over others?
		
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I donâ€™t discriminate, but have often been discriminated against. As I keep trying to say, I donâ€™t have a firm view on PD but it is easy for the beneficiaries of â€œnegativeâ€ discrimination to object to the so-called â€œpositiveâ€ version. In an ideal, equal world neither would happen but we are not there.


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			I donâ€™t discriminate, but have often been discriminated against. As I keep trying to say, I donâ€™t have a firm view on PD but it is easy for the beneficiaries of â€œnegativeâ€ discrimination to object to the so-called â€œpositiveâ€ version. In an ideal, equal world neither would happen but we are not there.
		
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And we wonâ€™t get there by bringing in more discrimination.

I knew I could get you to talk about it ðŸ˜€


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			â€œPositiveâ€ discrimination is discrimination pure and simple. If you want to address the main issue you canâ€™t resolve it by trying to get two wrongs to make a right. We need to get to a point where people are just people regardless of colour, religion, gender, age etc etc. We will never do that by discriminating in any way or favouring one group over another.
Calling a bad thing â€œpositiveâ€ does not make it good.
Anyone who is in favour of â€œpositiveâ€ discrimination is in favour of discrimination and is part of the problem.
		
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A few years back the Met were keen to employ a number of ethnic minority police officers. Some might not have been as bright as others from different backgrounds, and maybe aren't as good as police officers but they connected better with the local ethnic minority communities. I don't 100% agree with it, perhaps feeling that its the attitudes in the community that need fixing, but I feel it was the best thing to do in the short term.

There is a place for positive discrimination but it has to be the last resort, or perhaps more importantly as part of a raft of measures.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Some good points being made without it getting silly. 
Good to see people accepting that others are entitled to an opinion even if it differs to their own.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Some good points being made without it getting silly. 
Good to see people accepting that others are entitled to an opinion even if it differs to their own.
		
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It will never catch on.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A few years back the Met were keen to employ a number of ethnic minority police officers. Some might not have been as bright as others from different backgrounds, and maybe aren't as good as police officers but they connected better with the local ethnic minority communities. I don't 100% agree with it, perhaps feeling that its the attitudes in the community that need fixing, but I feel it was the best thing to do in the short term.

There is a place for positive discrimination but it has to be the last resort, or perhaps more importantly as part of a raft of measures.
		
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I recently applied, after being encouraged to do, to be on a board of directors in an educational situation.  And I was then declined as they already had their complement of 'white British males'. And that is the exact wording just about in their response, not me interpreting what they said. I would like to think I had the necessary skills and experience to do the role. But after a couple of minutes of huffing and puffing I kind of then thought that it was fair enough (as long as they subsequently do not take on another white British male), it is the first type of 'discrimination' I have ever suffered from to my knowledge and others have suffered much worse with much more severe consequences.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2018)

I think the darts and F1 organisers should be applauded for what they are trying to achieve. The ladies are only there for one reason - to look nice ,  they are both sports so why does their need to be attractive ladies just standing around or walking next to someone ? What does it achieve in the grand scheme of things , why is it just ladies ? Is the sport struggling that much that they need to have a pretty girl just there for eye candy. I agree it is a shame that some of the ladies will lose income but I think thatâ€™s a price to pay to give out a better message. 

I also donâ€™t think they can be compared to cheerleaders who are there to do a specific job for their team. 

As for positive discrimination- I think at times itâ€™s something that needs to happen to help balance things up - if all things were equal and there was no â€œnegativeâ€ discrimination then there would be no need for positive discrimination


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 2, 2018)

What about beauty pageants, will they be abolished as well? Do they serve any purpose other than to please the male eye?

Supermodels......40 year old women with muffin tops over their tracksuit bottoms?


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2018)

drive4show said:



*What about beauty pageants, will they be abolished as well? Do they serve any purpose other than to please the male eye?*

Supermodels......40 year old women with muffin tops over their tracksuit bottoms?
		
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I am not sure if you can see Miss World on TV any more, where as it used to be on a lot when I was growing up.  The big ones that are left are rebranding themselves and getting involved in education and charity work. http://missamerica.org/about-us/ 

 Yes I am sure you still need to be pretty to get anywhere in it and there is still a large element of women being judged on their looks, but at least they are making an effort for the winner to then do something useful in society, i.e. they have a role and responsibilities other than purely just being there to look good.


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

drive4show said:



			What about beauty pageants, will they be abolished as well? Do they serve any purpose other than to please the male eye?

Supermodels......40 year old women with muffin tops over their tracksuit bottoms?
		
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Just read an interesting article in which one of the Kawasaki grid girls put her POV. Basically, she doesn't want to lose her job. She, along with a number of the GG's, is degree qualified and has made the choice of career because she loves the superbike buzz. Some of her contemporaries are doctors, accountants and a solicitor. Its their weekend job, which they love. She 'spoke' eloquently, better than I, about why she does it and also of the code of conduct that exists in her industry to protect them from any laddish behaviour.

I'm not bothered either way about them being on the grid but I would question whether or not things are shifting too far.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think the darts and F1 organisers should be applauded for what they are trying to achieve. The ladies are only there for one reason - to look nice ,  they are both sports so why does their need to be attractive ladies just standing around or walking next to someone ? What does it achieve in the grand scheme of things , why is it just ladies ? Is the sport struggling that much that they need to have a pretty girl just there for eye candy. I agree it is a shame that some of the ladies will lose income but I think thatâ€™s a price to pay to give out a better message. 

I also donâ€™t think they can be compared to cheerleaders who are there to do a specific job for their team. 

As for positive discrimination- I think at times itâ€™s something that needs to happen to help balance things up - if all things were equal and there was no â€œnegativeâ€ discrimination then there would be no need for positive discrimination
		
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It's the heads of sport at sky,BBC,itv the who making these PC decisions not the sports themselves. 

what's this "better message" you seem to think it'll send out? Those girls aren't exactly forced to be walk on girls, they do it because they want to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			It's the heads of sport at sky,BBC,itv the who making these PC decisions not the sports themselves. 

what's this "better message" you seem to think it'll send out? Those girls aren't exactly forced to be walk on girls, they do it because they want to.
		
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That they can look for more in life than to just stand there and be eye candy - wasnâ€™t the Grid girls decision made by the owners of F1 ? 

Yes the girls want to do - just like they want to be plastered all over the Daily Sport or Nuts and Zoo - earning money but doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s not demeaning to females. I suspect the ladies look on it as a step up to other things. 

What do they exactly add to the sport ? What is their purpose - itâ€™s supposed to be sport after all as opposed to a parade of pretty ladies.


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## Beezerk (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That they can look for more in life than to just stand there and be eye candy - wasnâ€™t the Grid girls decision made by the owners of F1 ? 

Yes the girls want to do - just like they want to be plastered all over the Daily Sport or Nuts and Zoo - earning money but doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s not demeaning to females. I suspect the ladies look on it as a step up to other things. 

What do they exactly add to the sport ? What is their purpose - itâ€™s supposed to be sport after all as opposed to a parade of pretty ladies.
		
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I gather they do much more behind the scenes than what you just see on tv. Meet and greets, talking sport to the fans etc, apparently their knowledge of F1 is top notch. Not just a pretty face at all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			I gather they do much more behind the scenes than what you just see on tv. Meet and greets, talking sport to the fans etc, apparently their knowledge of F1 is top notch. Not just a pretty face at all.
		
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And if the sport require people to meet and greet people and speak to the fans I expect them to employ people and that selection to be based on their abilities as opposed to their looks - you didnâ€™t ever see a grid girl who wasnâ€™t pretty did you so itâ€™s safe to say why they got that job based on their looks


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## Beezerk (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And if the sport require people to meet and greet people and speak to the fans I expect them to employ people and that selection to be based on their abilities as opposed to their looks - you didnâ€™t ever see a grid girl who wasnâ€™t pretty did you so itâ€™s safe to say why they got that job based on their looks
		
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Blimey youâ€™re hard work.
I recall all the dolly birds at The Open the other year, theyâ€™ll need laying off as well I assume.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And if the sport require people to meet and greet people and speak to the fans I expect them to employ people and that selection to be based on their abilities as opposed to their looks - you didnâ€™t ever see a grid girl who wasnâ€™t pretty did you so itâ€™s safe to say why they got that job based on their looks
		
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Do you still watch Strictly to see women in Little clothing as youâ€™ve stated in the past?


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I recently applied, after being encouraged to do, to be on a board of directors in an educational situation.  And I was then declined as they already had their complement of 'white British males'. And that is the exact wording just about in their response, not me interpreting what they said. I would like to think I had the necessary skills and experience to do the role. But after a couple of minutes of huffing and puffing I kind of then thought that it was fair enough (as long as they subsequently do not take on another white British male), it is the first type of 'discrimination' I have ever suffered from to my knowledge and others have suffered much worse with much more severe consequences.
		
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I can just imagine them writing a letter saying that they had reached their quota of non white non British males. They would have been court in days and rightly so.
I can see how that serves diversification, but it doesnâ€™t help solve discrimination.


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

If grid girls are to be banned should bin men also be banned? Where do you draw the line between what is and what isn't an acceptable occupation?


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If grid girls are to be banned should bin men also be banned? Where do you draw the line between what is and what isn't an acceptable occupation?
		
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Doubt theyâ€™re called bin men anymore.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If grid girls are to be banned should bin men also be banned? Where do you draw the line between what is and what isn't an acceptable occupation?
		
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I believe they are called garbage disposal engineers now 

And we have a young lady on the bin lorry that collects our recycling so I guess thatâ€™s a job that anyone can go for - I suspect that being a grid girl was limited to being pretty , having a nice figure and female


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe they are called garbage disposal engineers now 

And we have a young lady on the bin lorry that collects our recycling so I guess thatâ€™s a job that anyone can go for - I suspect that being a grid girl was limited to being pretty , having a nice figure and female
		
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But surely we want our young women to be aiming at something higher than being a garbage disposal engineer?


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## chrisd (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I suspect that being a grid girl was limited to being pretty , having a nice figure and female
		
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Id certainly hope so


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## Stuart_C (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



*That they can look for more in life than to just stand there and be eye candy* - wasnâ€™t the Grid girls decision made by the owners of F1 ? 

Yes the girls want to do - just like they want to be plastered all over the Daily Sport or Nuts and Zoo - earning money but doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s not demeaning to females. I suspect the ladies look on it as a step up to other things. 

What do they exactly add to the sport ? What is their purpose - itâ€™s supposed to be sport after all as opposed to a parade of pretty ladies.
		
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Who do you think you are Phil? They're not just eye candy at all.   They're all adults who are in full control of their own future whether you think it's right or not is irrelevant. 

How can you saying modelling is demeaning? Its a career thats highly paid and satisfying to those that do it or is it just jealousy from other women because they are big fat munters and nobody would want to see them on the darts F1 etc?

They are used as advertising models in darts and horse racing usually on behalf of the main sponsor whose sponsorship money in the sport has improved said sports.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I can just imagine them writing a letter saying that they had reached their quota of non white non British males. They would have been court in days and rightly so.
I can see how that serves diversification, but it doesnâ€™t help solve discrimination.
		
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Maybe somtimes you have to discriminate (positively or otherwise) to advance diversification?  

And if so then it follows that the party who is discriminated against will mostly disagree and the party that is getting an advantage out of it will think it is a needed initiative.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Who do you think you are Phil? They're not just eye candy at all.   They're all adults who are in full control of their own future whether you think it's right or not is irrelevant. 

How can you saying modelling is demeaning? Its a career thats highly paid and satisfying to those that do it or is it just *jealousy from other women because they are big fat munters and nobody would want to see them on the d*arts F1 etc?

They are used as advertising models in darts and horse racing usually on behalf of the main sponsor whose sponsorship money in the sport has improved said sports.
		
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I would listen to the arguments for those who say it is their choice a lot more if people didn't kind of revert to the 'big fat munters' are leading this argument all the time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Who do you think you are Phil? They're not just eye candy at all.   They're all adults who are in full control of their own future whether you think it's right or not is irrelevant. 

How can you saying modelling is demeaning? Its a career thats highly paid and satisfying to those that do it or is it just jealousy from other women because they are big fat munters and nobody would want to see them on the darts F1 etc?

They are used as advertising models in darts and horse racing usually on behalf of the main sponsor whose sponsorship money in the sport has improved said sports.
		
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What is the purpose to F1 for the grid girls - same with the walk on girls ? They are there to look good - they arenâ€™t modelling anything - they are there for deprived men to droll over - that for me doesnâ€™t have a place in sport 

The girls in Zoo Nuts etc - flashing your knockers isnâ€™t modelling imo itâ€™s just soft porn for the fat truck drivers to get their kicks 

Guys and girls that wear clothes in catalogues or catwalks etc they my idea of models - it maybe wrong but for those itâ€™s not always about the shape or size etc itâ€™s open to all.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What is the purpose to F1 for the grid girls - same with the walk on girls ? They are there to look good - they arenâ€™t modelling anything - they are there for deprived men to droll over - that for me doesnâ€™t have a place in sport 

The girls in Zoo Nuts etc - flashing your knockers isnâ€™t modelling imo itâ€™s just soft porn for the fat truck drivers to get their kicks 

Guys and girls that wear clothes in catalogues or catwalks etc they my idea of models - it maybe wrong but for those itâ€™s not always about the shape or size etc itâ€™s open to all.
		
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Blimey thatâ€™s some massive generalisation going off in this post Phil.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And if the sport require people to meet and greet people and speak to the fans I expect them to employ people and that selection to be based on their abilities as opposed to their looks - you didnâ€™t ever see a grid girl who wasnâ€™t pretty did you so itâ€™s safe to say why they got that job based on their looks
		
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That's a very naive view. If you go to any event with a meet and greet, PR type of person then if female they are invariably very attractive. It goes with the role. Having a wonderful personality on its own is not enough.


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think the darts and F1 organisers should be applauded for what they are trying to achieve. The ladies are only there for one reason - to look nice
		
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Hamilton is only there because he is blessed with the ability to be a great driver.
Taylor was only there because he was blessed with the ability to be great a throwing darts at a board.
The girls are there because they are blessed with beauty.
No matter how much you donâ€™t like it people use what they have to make a living. Who are you or I to tell them they canâ€™t?
I couldnâ€™t make it as a male model, or as a pro golfer or footballer so I found something I was good at and I try to make the most of my opportunities, just like everyone else. Why shouldnâ€™t they just because some think itâ€™s demeaning?
The strange thing is that those who want to restrict others in things like this are the first to stand up for freedom of the individual, the right to choose and to shout down institutions like the church for telling people what they can and canâ€™t do, like have an abortion etc yet somehow think they can save these girls from themselves and make society more respectable.
Now if there was evidence that these girls were being forced into doing this, then yes I would have a serious problem with it. But the evidence is that this is not the case.
An earlier poster had it right a few pages ago. LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT. Whatâ€™s wrong with that?


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Maybe somtimes you have to discriminate (positively or otherwise) to advance diversification?  

And if so then it follows that the party who is discriminated against will mostly disagree and the party that is getting an advantage out of it will think it is a needed initiative.
		
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If there was no discrimination there would be no need for diversification.
You canâ€™t cure a problem by creating more of the same problems.
We need to change attitudes and that is happening.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Doubt theyâ€™re called bin men anymore.
		
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Gender non specific refuse technicians   :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 2, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That's a very naive view. If you go to any event with a meet and greet, PR type of person then if female they are invariably very attractive. It goes with the role. Having a wonderful personality on its own is not enough.
		
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I went into the BMW owners hospitality area at Wentworth a couple of years ago. Very attractive young lady checking car keys as you went in, I asked if she worked for BMW. "No, I'm a model just working here for a few days" was her reply. Nothing but the best for BMW owners :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Hamilton is only there because he is blessed with the ability to be a great driver.
Taylor was only there because he was blessed with the ability to be great a throwing darts at a board.
The girls are there because they are blessed with beauty.
No matter how much you donâ€™t like it people use what they have to make a living. Who are you or I to tell them they canâ€™t?
I couldnâ€™t make it as a male model, or as a pro golfer or footballer so I found something I was good at and I try to make the most of my opportunities, just like everyone else. Why shouldnâ€™t they just because some think itâ€™s demeaning?
The strange thing is that those who want to restrict others in things like this are the first to stand up for freedom of the individual, the right to choose and to shout down institutions like the church for telling people what they can and canâ€™t do, like have an abortion etc yet somehow think they can save these girls from themselves and make society more respectable.
Now if there was evidence that these girls were being forced into doing this, then yes I would have a serious problem with it. But the evidence is that this is not the case.
An earlier poster had it right a few pages ago. LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT. Whatâ€™s wrong with that?
		
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Another way to look at it is that the skills or attributes that they possess are no longer needed in their specific job.  This is happening a lot all over many professions, many jobs are being lost or replaced with automation, these roles are being replaced as the role they performed is no longer being seen as needed by their employers.  I am sure they will find alternative work where they can maximise the advantage of their natural beauty.

Also, there is an irony in the fact that those who are so passionate about letting people do want they want are so against people wearing a collarless untucked t shirt when they play golf. Works both ways, people are full of contradictions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Hamilton is only there because he is blessed with the ability to be a great driver.
Taylor was only there because he was blessed with the ability to be great a throwing darts at a board.
The girls are there because they are blessed with beauty.
No matter how much you donâ€™t like it people use what they have to make a living. Who are you or I to tell them they canâ€™t?
I couldnâ€™t make it as a male model, or as a pro golfer or footballer so I found something I was good at and I try to make the most of my opportunities, just like everyone else. Why shouldnâ€™t they just because some think itâ€™s demeaning?
The strange thing is that those who want to restrict others in things like this are the first to stand up for freedom of the individual, the right to choose and to shout down institutions like the church for telling people what they can and canâ€™t do, like have an abortion etc yet somehow think they can save these girls from themselves and make society more respectable.
Now if there was evidence that these girls were being forced into doing this, then yes I would have a serious problem with it. But the evidence is that this is not the case.
An earlier poster had it right a few pages ago. LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT. Whatâ€™s wrong with that?
		
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Hamilton is there because he is a F1 driver and itâ€™s the sport of F1 - what does standing there looking pretty have to do with the sport of F1 - what does it add ? What does the actual sport lose if they arenâ€™t there 

Same with the darts - the other night there were no walk on girls - made zero difference to the actual sport and the action 

The owners of the sport have decided those two things are no longer needed for the sport - will it change the sport in anyway - doubt it , will people stop watching the sport ? I expect not and if they did you would question why they were watching the sport in first place


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

So, a couple of examples to try to illustrate my point of view.

I remember being in a restaurant in Malta, two guys, two girls, none romantically linked, just friends. We were teasing the girls on how long they took to get ready and asked them why they spent so much time and money on their appearance. My friend suggested they did it to look good in front of men. The girls just laughed. â€œGod, no! We do it for ourselves! Donâ€™t you want to look your best? We enjoy looking good.â€

Another time I was in Vegas (globetrotter, I know) on a work thing and we were in a club. They were asking for girls to volunteer to go backstage where they had some makeover people and then the girls would be put in a bikini and heels before coming out on stage. I was amazed that one of the young ladies from a US supplier really wanted to do it. The paternal side of me wanted to tell her not to be so silly but another side was asking who was I to tell her what she could and couldnâ€™t do? I just asked her why she would want to do it? It wasnâ€™t like she needed to, she had a great job. It was clear that she loved that people found her attractive, that she knew she was great looking and she liked that people admired her looks. She wanted to do it because she would enjoy it.

Probably more relavent to the darts girls thing is that when I was in my 20â€™s I went out with a girl who was studying at ballet school. I was a rep and was going out selling my product and she would occasionally go for auditions. Typically they would wait around at auditions, sometimes for hours, trying to keep warmed up, waiting to be called in. Many times the producer would just say â€œnoâ€ even before they had the chance to dance a step, because the way the dancer looked sometimes didnâ€™t fit the part. I was horrified but she explained that I had my product, my commodity that I tried to sell every day. Lots of the time people didnâ€™t want to buy it, so they said no and rejected it. I didnâ€™t take it personally, they just didnâ€™t want my product. She said that when you are a model or an actor or a dancer, you are your own commodity. You couldnâ€™t take the rejection personally. It was just work. Just like what I did. And when they did get that part and had the chance to dance in front of an appreciative audience it was amazing and made up for everything.

Perhaps in the rush to condemn the parts the darts girls and the F1 girls et al play, maybe we should stop to ask the girls themselves why they do it. We might be surprised. Just like I was on each of the three occasions above.

If itâ€™s not exploitation and the girls donâ€™t feel itâ€™s demeaning then really what is the problem?
 London Fashion Week is a big earner for the UK. Are we dumping that too?

If we are not very careful we are in great danger of starting to limit personal freedoms and quickly becoming a very dull, prudish and humourless nation.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			So, a couple of examples to try to illustrate my point of view.

I remember being in a restaurant in Malta, two guys, two girls, none romantically linked, just friends. We were teasing the girls on how long they took to get ready and asked them why they spent so much time and money on their appearance. My friend suggested they did it to look good in front of men. The girls just laughed. â€œGod, no! We do it for ourselves! Donâ€™t you want to look your best? We enjoy looking good.â€

Another time I was in Vegas (globetrotter, I know) on a work thing and we were in a club. They were asking for girls to volunteer to go backstage where they had some makeover people and then the girls would be put in a bikini and heels before coming out on stage. I was amazed that one of the young ladies from a US supplier really wanted to do it. The paternal side of me wanted to tell her not to be so silly but another side was asking who was I to tell her what she could and couldnâ€™t do? I just asked her why she would want to do it? It wasnâ€™t like she needed to, she had a great job. It was clear that she loved that people found her attractive, that she knew she was great looking and she liked that people admired her looks. She wanted to do it because she would enjoy it.

Probably more relavent to the darts girls thing is that when I was in my 20â€™s I went out with a girl who was studying at ballet school. I was a rep and was going out selling my product and she would occasionally go for auditions. Typically they would wait around at auditions, sometimes for hours, trying to keep warmed up, waiting to be called in. Many times the producer would just say â€œnoâ€ even before they had the chance to dance a step, because the way the dancer looked sometimes didnâ€™t fit the part. I was horrified but she explained that I had my product, my commodity that I tried to sell every day. Lots of the time people didnâ€™t want to buy it, so they said no and rejected it. I didnâ€™t take it personally, they just didnâ€™t want my product. She said that when you are a model or an actor or a dancer, you are your own commodity. You couldnâ€™t take the rejection personally. It was just work. Just like what I did. And when they did get that part and had the chance to dance in front of an appreciative audience it was amazing and made up for everything.

Perhaps in the rush to condemn the parts the darts girls and the F1 girls et al play, maybe we should stop to ask the girls themselves why they do it. We might be surprised. Just like I was on each of the three occasions above.

If itâ€™s not exploitation and the girls donâ€™t feel itâ€™s demeaning then really what is the problem?
 London Fashion Week is a big earner for the UK. Are we dumping that too?

If we are not very careful we are in great danger of starting to limit personal freedoms and quickly becoming a very dull, prudish and humourless nation.
		
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Sweep you talk a lot of sense.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2018)

Sweep said:



			So, a couple of examples to try to illustrate my point of view.

I remember being in a restaurant in Malta, two guys, two girls, none romantically linked, just friends. We were teasing the girls on how long they took to get ready and asked them why they spent so much time and money on their appearance. My friend suggested they did it to look good in front of men. The girls just laughed. â€œGod, no! We do it for ourselves! Donâ€™t you want to look your best? We enjoy looking good.â€

Another time I was in Vegas (globetrotter, I know) on a work thing and we were in a club. They were asking for girls to volunteer to go backstage where they had some makeover people and then the girls would be put in a bikini and heels before coming out on stage. I was amazed that one of the young ladies from a US supplier really wanted to do it. The paternal side of me wanted to tell her not to be so silly but another side was asking who was I to tell her what she could and couldnâ€™t do? I just asked her why she would want to do it? It wasnâ€™t like she needed to, she had a great job. It was clear that she loved that people found her attractive, that she knew she was great looking and she liked that people admired her looks. She wanted to do it because she would enjoy it.

Probably more relavent to the darts girls thing is that when I was in my 20â€™s I went out with a girl who was studying at ballet school. I was a rep and was going out selling my product and she would occasionally go for auditions. Typically they would wait around at auditions, sometimes for hours, trying to keep warmed up, waiting to be called in. Many times the producer would just say â€œnoâ€ even before they had the chance to dance a step, because the way the dancer looked sometimes didnâ€™t fit the part. I was horrified but she explained that I had my product, my commodity that I tried to sell every day. Lots of the time people didnâ€™t want to buy it, so they said no and rejected it. I didnâ€™t take it personally, they just didnâ€™t want my product. She said that when you are a model or an actor or a dancer, you are your own commodity. You couldnâ€™t take the rejection personally. It was just work. Just like what I did. And when they did get that part and had the chance to dance in front of an appreciative audience it was amazing and made up for everything.

Perhaps in the rush to condemn the parts the darts girls and the F1 girls et al play, maybe we should stop to ask the girls themselves why they do it. We might be surprised. Just like I was on each of the three occasions above.

If itâ€™s not exploitation and the girls donâ€™t feel itâ€™s demeaning then really what is the problem?
 London Fashion Week is a big earner for the UK. Are we dumping that too?

If we are not very careful we are in great danger of starting to limit personal freedoms and quickly becoming a very dull, prudish and humourless nation.
		
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Why are you comparing it all to London Fashion Week ? - the models in that situation are key and essential to the whole event , there are all shapes and sizes and sex - they are needed for fashion labels to show their designs off. Itâ€™s all about the clothes they are wearing - the fashion models are equally as important to the event 

A walk on girl or grid girl is not essential to sport - the sport doesnâ€™t change one single bit without them - what do they add to the actual sport ? Itâ€™s a sporting event not a fashion show
 Guess there must be an answer to that question


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are you comparing it all to London Fashion Week ? - the models in that situation are key and essential to the whole event , there are all shapes and sizes and sex - they are needed for fashion labels to show their designs off. Itâ€™s all about the clothes they are wearing - the fashion models are equally as important to the event 

A walk on girl or grid girl is not essential to sport - the sport doesnâ€™t change one single bit without them - what do they add to the actual sport ? Itâ€™s a sporting event not a fashion show
 Guess there must be an answer to that question
		
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Football mascots,letâ€™s get rid of them for a start. 
Football will not be affected one bit. 

National anthems at sporting events,sorry but thatâ€™s got nothing to do with sport. 

And Iâ€™ll ask you the question again,Do you still watch Strictly come dancing to watch the women wearing little clothing? 
Or are you a changed man now Phil?


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are you comparing it all to London Fashion Week ? - the models in that situation are key and essential to the whole event , there are all shapes and sizes and sex - they are needed for fashion labels to show their designs off. Itâ€™s all about the clothes they are wearing - the fashion models are equally as important to the event 

A walk on girl or grid girl is not essential to sport - the sport doesnâ€™t change one single bit without them - what do they add to the actual sport ? Itâ€™s a sporting event not a fashion show
 Guess there must be an answer to that question
		
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Fashion week; they could just put the clothes on a mannequin. And I suppose all the cars could be painted grey...


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## bluewolf (Feb 2, 2018)

Don't really know the right or wrong of this as I like to look at a scantily clad lady as much as anyone. However, when my daughter grows up I just hope that she wants to be the F1 driver, not the empty vessel stood at the side of the car...


Note - Empty vessel as in - Just there to look at. I'm not implying that they're stupid...


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## Dasit (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are you comparing it all to London Fashion Week ? - the models in that situation are key and essential to the whole event , there are all shapes and sizes and sex - they are needed for fashion labels to show their designs off. Itâ€™s all about the clothes they are wearing - the fashion models are equally as important to the event 

A walk on girl or grid girl is not essential to sport - the sport doesnâ€™t change one single bit without them - what do they add to the actual sport ? Itâ€™s a sporting event not a fashion show
 Guess there must be an answer to that question
		
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It is all part of the show

You go with mates, have drinks, sing, dance, bond.

The darts is a part of it, the girls are part of it, the fancy dress is part of it.

The combination works, you start meddling maybe it doesnâ€™t work.


Not as simple as saying it is just darts...cos obviously it isnâ€™t just darts


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Dasit said:



			It is all part of the show

You go with mates, have drinks, sing, dance, bond.

The darts is a part of it, the girls are part of it, the fancy dress is part of it.

The combination works, you start meddling maybe it doesnâ€™t work.


Not as simple as saying it is just darts...cos obviously it isnâ€™t just darts
		
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This is true. 
The walk on songs arenâ€™t needed. 
The beer isnâ€™t needed. 
The fancy dress isnâ€™t needed. 
The signs in the crowd arenâ€™t needed. 

Why not just turn up,watch them throw their arrows & then go home.


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## USER1999 (Feb 2, 2018)

There are trade shows at the NEC pretty much every week. Rightly or wrongly, depending on your view, there are ladies who you can hire to be on your stand. This is their job, exhibition girls. 52 weeks a year. They have a job, that is it. They earn good money.
Is it pc? Probably not. Is it needed? Probably not. Do they deserved to get binned off due to pc compliance? Heck, give them a choice. It is their lively hood. No one is taking my job away, so it is easy for me.


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## JamesR (Feb 2, 2018)

Should Instagram be banned?

Lots of scantily clad models,actresses and wannabes posting photos of themselves for the public to look at.


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## Slime (Feb 2, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Don't really know the right or wrong of this as I like to look at a scantily clad lady as much as anyone. However, when my daughter grows up *I just hope that she wants to be the F1 driver,* not the empty vessel stood at the side of the car...
Note - Empty vessel as in - Just there to look at. I'm not implying that they're stupid...
		
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I really hope not, for her sake, as she'll never succeed and will only end up disappointed.


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## bluewolf (Feb 2, 2018)

Slime said:



			I really hope not, for her sake, as she'll never succeed and will only end up disappointed.
		
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Do you mind me asking why?


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Do you mind me asking why?
		
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You do know  that  women arenâ€™t very good at driving donâ€™t you?


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## bluewolf (Feb 2, 2018)

I'd like Slime to explain his post.. Thanks though..

 I just need to prepare my 10yr old daughter for the sad truth that she'll never be as vital a member of society as Good'ol Slime.. I need to get my Daddy/Daughter speech primed...

Come on Slime.. Tell me why my daughter can't be a F1 driver...:thup:


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## USER1999 (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			You do know  that  women arenâ€™t very good at driving donâ€™t you?
		
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Seriously? Really?  Um, i think you missed off the smiley thingy.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Seriously? Really?  Um, i think you missed off the smiley thingy.
		
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I really didnâ€™t think it needed it. 

Does a smiley really give you a free pass to say anything?


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I'd like Slime to explain his post.. Thanks though..

 I just need to prepare my 10yr old daughter for the sad truth that she'll never be as vital a member of society as Good'ol Slime.. I need to get my Daddy/Daughter speech primed...

Come on Slime.. Tell me why my daughter can't be a F1 driver...:thup:
		
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My post was 100% tongue in cheek mate.


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## bluewolf (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			I really didnâ€™t think it needed it. 

Does a smiley really give you a free pass to say anything?
		
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It indicates a joke.. I like jokes.. It's a way for people to say something they don't really mean but to still garner laughs..

Did you mean it?


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Beat you to it &#128513;


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## bluewolf (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Beat you to it &#128513;
		
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Damn you....... And damn my fat slow fingers.....


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 2, 2018)

Seriously tho why arenâ€™t their any F1 female drivers? 
Do they not get the chance? 
Are they not as good? 

Youâ€™d think if someone like Redbull could find a female driver that could compete for the title it would be massive for them.


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## bluewolf (Feb 2, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Seriously tho why arenâ€™t their any F1 female drivers? 
Do they not get the chance? 
Are they not as good? 

Youâ€™d think if someone like Redbull could find a female driver that could compete for the title it would be massive for them.
		
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I'd suspect that they haven't had anywhere near as many chances as Men at racing at the lower levels. Therefore there are far fewer reaching the top level..

Recent studies have shown that Female jockies are just as good as Male jockies. However, they don't get the same opportunities due to institutionalized sexism within the sport. It's a barrier that is slowly breaking. However, it will break in time.. 

Who knows if we'll ever have a Female F1 World Champion.. I'm struggling to see why we can't.. I'm just waiting for Slime to explain to me..


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I also donâ€™t think they can be compared to cheerleaders who are there to do a specific job for their team.
		
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I canâ€™t believe anyone who thinks the F1 girls, darts walk in girls etc should go but thinks cheerleaders are ok. Darts girls are only there to look good but cheerleaders do a job for their team?
You are not telling me that American Football fans need girls to make them cheer their team on. Itâ€™s one of the worlds biggest sports with some of the largest audiences worldwide. I am told that cheerleading is a sport in itself. If so then those who are so concerned about the darts girls etc should surely be campaigning for cheerleading to have its own events where the female participants are centre stage instead of playing second fiddle to the men yet again.
Sorry, this is double standards.

The point about the darts, F1, boxing etc is that itâ€™s all there to add razzmatazz and glamour to the event. F1 is all about glamour and beautiful people and celebrities. Thatâ€™s why they have the Red Arrows there. What do they have to do with F1. If they are surplus to requirements like the girls, surely they must go to?
What about the presentation at the Open? How many men in blazers does it take to present a trophy? Letâ€™s have a cull. One blazer handing the jug over should do it and we can be home in time for tea.


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2018)

Some on here complain about the stuffiness of golf clubs. They particularly object to dress codes and the fact that some clubs dictate to members what they can and canâ€™t wear.
Interestingly many of those same people are those most willing to tell women how they can and canâ€™t earn a living.
Just saying...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2018)

I have read that most Women have a lower spatial awareness then men, this was substantiated by evolution whereby Men have needed a better awareness of the 3D space around them due to having to hunt game in groups throughout the protracted millennia of the evolutionary process.   Women tended to remain in the home and didn't develop the same level of spatial awareness.

Just saying.


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## bluewolf (Feb 2, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I have read that most Women have a lower spatial awareness then men, this was substantiated by evolution whereby Men have needed a better awareness of the 3D space around them due to having to hunt game in groups throughout the protracted millennia of the evolutionary process.   Women tended to remain in the home and didn't develop the same level of spatial awareness.

Just saying.
		
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Damn... If only evolution hadn't stopped dead in its tracks in the 1700's... Or is that attitudes? I always get those mixed up...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Damn... If only evolution hadn't stopped dead in its tracks in the 1700's... Or is that attitudes? I always get those mixed up...

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Evolution is crystal clear unless you want to apply sociological filters to it, then it can be distorted any way you want.


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Evolution is crystal clear unless you want to apply sociological filters to it, then it can be distorted any way you want. 

Click to expand...

You're probably right. Equality is a sociological distortion rather than a societal direction....


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 3, 2018)

Hi everyone just catching up on this thread, am a bit drunk tonight..  just wondering if the forum still has rules about sexism â€˜cos this thread seems to be a wee bit off the reservation...?


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 3, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hi everyone just catching up on this thread, am a bit drunk tonight..  just wondering if the forum still has rules about sexism â€˜cos this thread seems to be a wee bit off the reservation...?
		
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Shock horror FD claims sexism ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜

2 smileyâ€™s


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hi everyone just catching up on this thread, am a bit drunk tonight..  just wondering if the forum still has rules about sexism â€˜cos this thread seems to be a wee bit off the reservation...?
		
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The thread is a debate that touches on sexism, some posts , in your opinion, may well be sexist. Surely better to keep the thread running and get your point across? 

Complaining about the thread surely fuels the idea that the world is becoming a censored and beige place.


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## User20205 (Feb 3, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The thread is a debate that touches on sexism, some posts , in your opinion, may well be sexist. Surely better to keep the thread running and get your point across? 

Complaining about the thread surely fuels the idea that the world is becoming a censored and beige place.
		
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To claim women canâ€™t drive because of some evolutionary difference based on some unsubstantiated/unreferenced book is a nonsense. Substitute â€˜womenâ€™ for an ethnic group to illustrate the full nonsense of it. Iâ€™m sure that argument has been used for a justification before & that didnâ€™t end too well. 
I think weâ€™re all still waiting with interest from slimes critique on Wolfies daughters driving style? 
You can have a discussion without slipping into lazy cliches.


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## SatchFan (Feb 3, 2018)

Now we have the return of Girl Power. The Spice Girls are coming back. Feeling vulnerable.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2018)

therod said:



			To claim women canâ€™t drive because of some evolutionary difference based on some unsubstantiated/unreferenced book is a nonsense. Substitute â€˜womenâ€™ for an ethnic group to illustrate the full nonsense of it. Iâ€™m sure that argument has been used for a justification before & that didnâ€™t end too well. 
I think weâ€™re all still waiting with interest from slimes critique on Wolfies daughters driving style? 
You can have a discussion without slipping into lazy cliches.
		
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I didn't make that comment or defend it. I agree it's a daft suggestion so the way to deal with it is expose it as such.


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## Sweep (Feb 3, 2018)

I recall seeing a program about the things that men are better at than women and vice-versa. They illustrated it by putting men and women through tests. The spatial awareness was one aspect (though the evolutionary explanation is new to me) often used to humourlessly explain why women canâ€™t parallel park. The result of the program was a draw ( probably predictable).
We should probably accept that men and women are different and that _generally _women are better at some things than men and vice versa. This is of course a massive generalisation. It has to be. We are dealing in billions here. But itâ€™s hard to deny that men are usually stronger than women and women have men beat on child birth.
Personally I say vive la difference.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Some on here complain about the stuffiness of golf clubs. They particularly object to dress codes and the fact that some clubs dictate to members what they can and canâ€™t wear.
Interestingly many of those same people are those most willing to tell women how they can and canâ€™t earn a living.
Just saying...
		
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Through a mixture of narcissism and paranoia I wil assume that is aimed at me.

On the surface I agree that it does seem contradictory, and as I posted earlier, people are full on contradictions on both sides.  People advocating that people are free to do what they want will defend the strict rules of a golf club, people who would like to see pit girls phased out want to relax such codes and behaviours in golf clubs.  However that only kind of rings completely true if the argument about personal freedom to do what you want is the main driver of the argument.

From my perspective, whilst I am all in favour people having a huge amount of freedom and there being free speech etc etc, as I imagine most people are, that is not the driver for me about things like dress codes or the use of language on this board.  I do not feel dress codes are infringing on any human rights. It is more about societal norms and the the image that the event or organisation portrays through it's actions and rules.  To me walk on girls are a thing of the past and whilst it does not keep me awake at night, I am not sad to see them consigned to history as certain people think they are no longer appropriate.  Which is the exact same argument I would make about some of the more outdated dress codes at golf clubs.  To me (parts of) society and what people expect have moved on. 

I do not see it as a straight argument between people being free to do what they want on one side so anything goes, or people being told what to do all the time on the other.  This debate I think is a but more nuanced than that.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I recall seeing a program about the things that men are better at than women and vice-versa. They illustrated it by putting men and women through tests. The spatial awareness was one aspect (though the evolutionary explanation is new to me) often used to humourlessly explain why women canâ€™t parallel park. The result of the program was a draw ( probably predictable).
We should probably accept that men and women are different and that _generally _women are better at some things than men and vice versa. This is of course a massive generalisation. It has to be. We are dealing in billions here. But itâ€™s hard to deny that men are usually stronger than women and women have men beat on child birth.
Personally I say vive la difference.
		
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I think people are accepting that men and women are different.  But what people are trying to do is ensure that in the future there are equal opportunities open to women and men in the vast majority of situations where women can do the job/role/function to just as good a standard as men. 

If it is a clear situation where brute strength is needed then of course, on average, a man will be better for the role. However, whilst you probably did not do it on purpose, and it may have been slightly ironic in which case I applogise, but highlighting child birth as the one and area where women are better kind of does not portray women in the best light.  I am pretty sure they have more to offer rather than a purely biological function.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 3, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			If it is a clear situation where brute strength is needed then of course, on average, a man will be better for the role. However, whilst you probably did not do it on purpose, and it may have been slightly ironic in which case I applogise, but highlighting child birth as the one and area where women are better kind of does not portray women in the best light.  I am pretty sure they have more to offer rather than a purely biological function.
		
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Indeed, we can also be nice to look at, I believe.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 3, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed, we can also be nice to look at, I believe.
		
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So can men,I believe &#128513;


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Do you mind me asking why?
		
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Not at all.
Physiologically, males and females are different.
Men, as a rule, are the stronger sex, they can run faster, jump higher, throw further because they are the stronger sex.
F1 drivers are elite athletes and have to be very strong, physically. They are subject to sustained G forces of up to 5g, they need very strong neck and chest muscles for this alone. They require very high arm strength to corner at very high speed and they also require a very strong core. They contend with enormous heat in their cockpits and can sweat up to half a stone of weight loss in a race whilst having to maintain 100% concentration throughout the races.
Women, as a sex, are not as strong as men which, I firmly believe, is why women are unable to succeed as F1 drivers.




bluewolf said:



			I'd like Slime to explain his post.. 

*I just need to prepare my 10yr old daughter for the sad truth that she'll never be as vital a member of society as Good'ol Slime..* I need to get my Daddy/Daughter speech primed...

Come on Slime.. Tell me why my daughter can't be a F1 driver...:thup:
		
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I can think of no reason why your 10 year old daughter can't grow up to be a vital member of society, *please show me where you got that from*.
'Good'ol Slime' ............... not sure that was warranted.


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## Sweep (Feb 3, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Through a mixture of narcissism and paranoia I wil assume that is aimed at me.

On the surface I agree that it does seem contradictory, and as I posted earlier, people are full on contradictions on both sides.  People advocating that people are free to do what they want will defend the strict rules of a golf club, people who would like to see pit girls phased out want to relax such codes and behaviours in golf clubs.  However that only kind of rings completely true if the argument about personal freedom to do what you want is the main driver of the argument.

From my perspective, whilst I am all in favour people having a huge amount of freedom and there being free speech etc etc, as I imagine most people are, that is not the driver for me about things like dress codes or the use of language on this board.  I do not feel dress codes are infringing on any human rights. It is more about societal norms and the the image that the event or organisation portrays through it's actions and rules.  To me walk on girls are a thing of the past and whilst it does not keep me awake at night, I am not sad to see them consigned to history as certain people think they are no longer appropriate.  Which is the exact same argument I would make about some of the more outdated dress codes at golf clubs.  To me (parts of) society and what people expect have moved on. 

I do not see it as a straight argument between people being free to do what they want on one side so anything goes, or people being told what to do all the time on the other.  This debate I think is a but more nuanced than that.
		
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I donâ€™t think you are paranoid ðŸ˜€
In some ways I agree. If the darts and F1 girls have had their day then so be it. Personally I donâ€™t watch darts and I watch F1 for the racing. I really donâ€™t think anyone watches for the girls.
However, this is in my view very much about personal freedoms. There is an agenda now that is quite sinister in the way some people think they can tell everyone how to live their lives and make their living, often by looking down on people who work or act in certain ways and pretending that they have their best interests at heart. Much of this is spurred on by the Hollywood scandals and a lot of those who wish to restrict the freedom of others have jumped on the bandwagon. This is a prime example. 
We all know there has to be sensible laws and order, but you canâ€™t shout for freedom of the individual from the rooftops and then restrict the freedoms of others just because you find something a bit tacky.
I should warn you, we have been down this road before. Where does it end? What happens if those restrictions on freedoms go further than you would like? You can imagine it all then starts to become uncomfortable and that is where some people are now. Some have already lost their jobs.
So, if we continue down this road how long before you become uncomfortable?
What if we get to the point where we canâ€™t show programmes about the history of rock and roll because Elvis swings his hips in a provocative manner? Would that be good? We were there once and not very long ago.
Believe me, if we have to put up with a bit of tackiness on tv in order to protect personal freedoms then itâ€™s well worth it. If itâ€™s had itâ€™s day it will die naturally just like page 3 did.


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## Sweep (Feb 3, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think people are accepting that men and women are different.  But what people are trying to do is ensure that in the future there are equal opportunities open to women and men in the vast majority of situations where women can do the job/role/function to just as good a standard as men. 

If it is a clear situation where brute strength is needed then of course, on average, a man will be better for the role. However, whilst you probably did not do it on purpose, and it may have been slightly ironic in which case I applogise, but highlighting child birth as the one and area where women are better kind of does not portray women in the best light.  I am pretty sure they have more to offer rather than a purely biological function.
		
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My point about child birth was meant to be humorous. I think it would be disparaging to men to simplify their best roles as those where brute strength is required too.
My central point was that we cannot pretend that men and women are the same. They are not and we should celebrate that fact. Imagine a world populated by only men. Or one with only women. Everyone surely wants equal opportunities for both genders but there are obviously some roles women do better than men and vice versa (walk on girls are an obvious example &#128512; - smiley to indicate a joke btw). If we choose to pretend otherwise we will never get to equality.


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## Sweep (Feb 3, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed, we can also be nice to look at, I believe.
		
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True, but in these PC times we are not allowed to admit that and should be ashamed of finding them attractive it seems.


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			Not at all.
Physiologically, males and females are different.
Men, as a rule, are the stronger sex, they can run faster, jump higher, throw further because they are the stronger sex.
F1 drivers are elite athletes and have to be very strong, physically. They are subject to sustained G forces of up to 5g, they need very strong neck and chest muscles for this alone. They require very high arm strength to corner at very high speed and they also require a very strong core. They contend with enormous heat in their cockpits and can sweat up to half a stone of weight loss in a race whilst having to maintain 100% concentration throughout the races.
Women, as a sex, are not as strong as men which, I firmly believe, is why women are unable to succeed as F1 drivers.




I can think of no reason why your 10 year old daughter can't grow up to be a vital member of society, *please show me where you got that from*.
'Good'ol Slime' ............... not sure that was warranted.
		
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So, much like a Fighter Pilot then. If only there were some female fighter pilots to disprove your opinion (which you stated as a matter of fact). 

Oh, and not only was it warranted, I think it was quite mild.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			Not at all.
Physiologically, males and females are different.
Men, as a rule, are the stronger sex, they can run faster, jump higher, throw further because they are the stronger sex.
F1 drivers are elite athletes and have to be very strong, physically. They are subject to sustained G forces of up to 5g, they need very strong neck and chest muscles for this alone. They require very high arm strength to corner at very high speed and they also require a very strong core. They contend with enormous heat in their cockpits and can sweat up to half a stone of weight loss in a race whilst having to maintain 100% concentration throughout the races.
Women, as a sex, are not as strong as men which, I firmly believe, is why women are unable to succeed as F1 drivers.




I can think of no reason why your 10 year old daughter can't grow up to be a vital member of society, *please show me where you got that from*.
'Good'ol Slime' ............... not sure that was warranted.
		
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Being a pilot in a fast jet is very demanding physically - more so than driving an F1 car yet there are plenty of female fast jet pilots 

Then there is also Danica Patrick - she seemed to cope 

I suspect there arenâ€™t many female F1 drivers waiting in the wings because no one will give them a real chance in a Male dominated sport


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			I can think of no reason why your 10 year old daughter can't grow up to be a vital member of society, *please show me where you got that from*.
'Good'ol Slime' ............... not sure that was warranted.
		
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I'm still waiting for a response to my polite request ...................




bluewolf said:



			So, much like a Fighter Pilot then. If only there were some female fighter pilots to disprove your opinion (which you stated as a matter of fact). 

*Oh, and not only was it warranted, I think it was quite mild.....*

Click to expand...

Please elaborate, (or even justify), I'm genuinely confused.




Liverpoolphil said:



			Being a pilot in a fast jet is very demanding physically - more so than driving an F1 car yet there are plenty of female fast jet pilots 

*Then there is also Danica Patrick - she seemed to cope 
*
I suspect there arenâ€™t many female F1 drivers waiting in the wings *because no one will give them a real chance* in a Male dominated sport
		
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How many F1 races did she finish?

You know that, do you?


Oh, I thought we were talking F1 drivers, not fighter pilots.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			I'm still waiting for a response to my polite request ...................




Please elaborate, (or even justify), I'm genuinely confused.




How many F1 races did she finish?

You know that, do you?


Oh, I thought we were talking F1 drivers, not fighter pilots.
		
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Bringing up female fast jet pilots was in response to the suggestion that female wonâ€™t be able to physically cope with the demands of F1 - if they can cope with the demands of being a fast jet pilot ( which is more physically demanding ) then why canâ€™t they drive a F1 car just as well ?

Danica Patrick has given interviews about her and other females lack of chances to drive in F1 - maybe the male egos within the sport couldnâ€™t handle the chance they could be beaten in a car race by a female. And yes Danica Patrick had that attitude in Indy Car


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			I'm still waiting for a response to my polite request ...................




Please elaborate, (or even justify), I'm genuinely confused.




How many F1 races did she finish?

You know that, do you?


Oh, I thought we were talking F1 drivers, not fighter pilots.
		
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Don't add being obtuse to the list of currently obvious failings...

Your pathetic comment deserved a hell of a lot more of a response than it got. You attempted to belittle the chances of my daughter (and all other girls).


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Don't add being obtuse to the list of currently obvious failings...

Your pathetic comment deserved a hell of a lot more of a response than it got. You attempted to belittle the chances of my daughter (and all other girls).
		
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Well, if you can't answer the simple questions in public, maybe you'd like to PM me with your answers ................. as you seem to know me so well!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			Well, if you can't answer the simple questions in public, maybe you'd like to PM me with your answers ................. as you seem to know me so well!
		
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You belittled the chances of his daughter or any other young lady by saying they have no chance of being an F1 driver and will only end up in disappointment - pretty much telling them donâ€™t bother having a dream like that.


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			Well, if you can't answer the simple questions in public, maybe you'd like to PM me with your answers ................. as you seem to know me so well!
		
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Sweet Jesus. This is painful...

Your comment was derogatory and insinuated that girls were somehow less able than boys. This isn't rocket science!!!


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Sweet Jesus. This is painful...

Your comment was derogatory and insinuated that girls were somehow less able than boys. This isn't rocket science!!!
		
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Does your daughter even want to be a F1 driver?


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Does your daughter even want to be a F1 driver?
		
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Of course not 

But that's not really the point is it?

She wants to be a horse riding, middle distance running Doctor. Fortunately, she's a talented runner who's excelling at school whilst riding her horse most weekends. She's living the dream!!!


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Of course not 

But that's not really the point is it?

She wants to be a horse riding, middle distance running Doctor. Fortunately, she's a talented runner who's excelling at school whilst riding her horse most weekends. She's living the dream!!!
		
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Why not push her to be a F1 driver just to prove a point ðŸ˜‚

That would be a quality â€œI told you soâ€


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why not push her to be a F1 driver just to prove a point ðŸ˜‚

That would be a quality â€œI told you soâ€
		
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That would be a quality long term "F-U" wouldn't it? :whoo:


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Sweet Jesus. This is painful...

Your comment was derogatory and *insinuated that girls were somehow less able than boys.* This isn't rocket science!!!
		
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At some things they are, as well you know, but on the flipside there are also some areas where girls are more able than boys!
I don't have an issue with that, but it seems that you do, so maybe you should have a closer look at yourself rather than throw false accusations around that you can't substantiate!

You said "I just need to prepare my 10yr old  daughter for the sad truth that she'll never be as vital a member of  society as Good'ol Slime" which I find pretty pathetic.
It's also pretty poor that you can't justify that statement in any way what-so-ever.
You don't know me, so stop judging me based on my opinion that females will never make it in F1.


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			At some things they are, as well you know, but on the flipside there are also some areas where girls are more able than boys!
I don't have an issue with that, but it seems that you do, so maybe you should have a closer look at yourself rather than throw false accusations around that you can't substantiate!

You said "I just need to prepare my 10yr old  daughter for the sad truth that she'll never be as vital a member of  society as Good'ol Slime" which I find pretty pathetic.
It's also pretty poor that you can't justify that statement in any way what-so-ever.
You don't know me, so stop judging me based on my opinion that females will never make it in F1.
		
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You really aren't worth the effort are you.


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You really aren't worth the effort are you.
		
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I'll take that as an apology ........................ it's the closest I'll get.
You just can't answer one simple question.


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			I'll take that as an apology ........................ it's the closest I'll get.
You just can't answer one simple question.
		
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Oh FFS. You're question has been answered. You derided the ability of any girl to be as good as a boy. You stated it as a fact not as an opinion. You've been proven wrong. I don't want an apology from you as I really have very little respect for you. 

And if you want an apology from me I'll PM you my address. Feel free to turn up anytime and ask for it.


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Oh FFS. *You're question has been answered.* *You derided the ability of any girl to be as good as a boy*. You stated it as a fact not as an opinion. *You've been proven wrong*. I don't want an apology from you as I really have very little respect for you. 

*And if you want an apology from me I'll PM you my address. Feel free to turn up anytime and ask for it.*

Click to expand...

No it hasn't.
No I didn't, as well you know.
No I haven't.
Oh dear, you really have lost the plot. I believe this is a veiled threat, but I'll let it pass as I know you don't mean it.



Eventually, maybe in a few days, you'll calm down, re-read the thread, realise what I said was correct and then see how others must see you.


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			No it hasn't.
No I didn't, as well you know.
No I haven't.
Oh dear, you really have lost the plot. I believe this is a veiled threat, but I'll let it pass as I know you don't mean it.



Eventually, maybe in a few days, you'll calm down, re-read the thread, realise what I said was correct and then see how others must see you.



Click to expand...

I'm beginning to wonder if English is a 2nd language for you. 

And it wasn't a threat. Veiled or otherwise.


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I'm beginning to wonder if English is a 2nd language for you. 

*And it wasn't a threat. *Veiled or otherwise.
		
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..................... quickly selects reverse ..................

Oh, and why do you think English may be my second language?
Your post #235 was ALL incorrect, but you already know that.


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## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			..................... quickly selects reverse ..................

Oh, and why do you think English may be my second language?
Your post #235 was ALL incorrect, but you already know that.
		
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:rofl:

Your tactic for recovering from last night's post is amusing. You know you were in the wrong so instead of apologise you've gone on the offensive. Attempting to divert attention from your post. Ignoring several answers. Purposely misreading posts. Quite pathetic. 

I'm going to bow out of this discussion. Safe in the knowledge that everyone who has read this thread will know exactly what type of person you are. 

Take care Slime.


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## User20205 (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			..................... quickly selects reverse ..................

Oh, and why do you think English may be my second language?
Your post #235 was ALL incorrect, but you already know that.
		
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Iâ€™ve got no dog in this fight, but youâ€™re being a bit of a dick. You are correct we donâ€™t know you but on the evidence of this itâ€™s no loss.
You canâ€™t making sweeping statements intended to belittle & then play the victim


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

bluewolf said:



*I'm going to bow out of this discussion. Safe in the knowledge that everyone who has read this thread will know exactly what type of people we are. 
*
*Take care Slime.*

Click to expand...

I hope they do, take care bluewolf and good luck to your daughter :thup:.


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

therod said:



			Iâ€™ve got no dog in this fight, but youâ€™re being a bit of a dick. You are correct we donâ€™t know you but on the evidence of this itâ€™s no loss.
You canâ€™t making sweeping statements intended to belittle & then play the victim
		
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I've made no sweeping statements intending to belittle anybody.
I gave my opinion on girls in F1 and was then accused of saying that girls are less able than boys.
In some instances they are, in others it's the other way around.
That's just how it is ......................... don't you agree?


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## User20205 (Feb 3, 2018)

Slime said:



			I've made no sweeping statements intending to belittle anybody.
I gave my opinion on girls in F1 and was then accused of saying that girls are less able than boys.
In some instances they are, in others it's the other way around.
That's just how it is ......................... don't you agree?
		
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I donâ€™t think you and me would agree on much


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2018)

therod said:



			I donâ€™t think you and me would agree on much
		
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Fair enough, I'll happily agree to disagree ....................... but I've not called you a bit of a dick.


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## DRW (Feb 3, 2018)

Not knowing if muscles and strength were important in F1 racing and perhaps thinking it maybe, did a quick google to read about out of interest for myself, as I have always believed anyone can be whatever they want to be and came across this older article with the  :-

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/18332772

Found it a good read, so thought I would post up and sounds like basically the strength thing, is not really important and brains are more important. There were other articles that perhaps said otherwise and also from some articles sounds like more women are knocking on the door at 'lower' levels, which can only mean that more will break though.

Reading this articles has certainly beats practise putting tonight, thanks:thup:


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## Slime (Feb 4, 2018)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Not knowing if muscles and strength were important in F1 racing and perhaps thinking it maybe, did a quick google to read about out of interest for myself, as I have always believed anyone can be whatever they want to be and came across this older article with the  :-

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/18332772

Found it a good read, so thought I would post up and sounds like *basically the strength thing, is not really important and brains are more important. There were other articles that perhaps said otherwise *and also from some articles sounds like more women are knocking on the door at 'lower' levels, which can only mean that more will break though.
		
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....


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2018)

Manchester Art Gallery has removed Hylas and the Nymphs by JW Waterhouse to â€œspark debateâ€ about paintings depicting young girls. Apparently visitors can put up post-it notes to express their feelings about this. One person wrote â€œFeminism gone mad. I am ashamed to be a feministâ€.
Funny, I thought art galleries were supposed to display art not conduct political experiments, but maybe thatâ€™s just me.
Oddly no-one seems to have suggested or even thought about removing art depicting violence, war or murder. 
The very fact that we are even considering this shows that in a few short weeks this shift towards a puritanical society has gone too far.
If we are removing art how is this going to help us educate our young? Perhaps parents should consider this aspect of their childrenâ€™s lives too?
Just a few months ago we were condemning ISIS for destroying art and ancient architecture. To me this has echoes of that.
IMO this gallery is a disgrace to its own reason for being. Any public funding should be withdrawn.
As I said in an earlier post, when will this have gone too far for your own comfort? Are we there yet? Or are you hungry for more? That Venus Di Milo had nice boobs. We can have that in a crusher by this afternoon if you like.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-42904024


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## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Manchester Art Gallery has removed Hylas and the Nymphs by JW Waterhouse to â€œspark debateâ€ about paintings depicting young girls. Apparently visitors can put up post-it notes to express their feelings about this. One person wrote â€œFeminism gone mad. I am ashamed to be a feministâ€.
Funny, I thought art galleries were supposed to display art not conduct political experiments, but maybe thatâ€™s just me.
Oddly no-one seems to have suggested or even thought about removing art depicting violence, war or murder. 
The very fact that we are even considering this shows that in a few short weeks this shift towards a puritanical society has gone too far.
If we are removing art how is this going to help us educate our young? Perhaps parents should consider this aspect of their childrenâ€™s lives too?
Just a few months ago we were condemning ISIS for destroying art and ancient architecture. To me this has echoes of that.
IMO this gallery is a disgrace to its own reason for being. Any public funding should be withdrawn.
As I said in an earlier post, when will this have gone too far for your own comfort? Are we there yet? Or are you hungry for more? That Venus Di Milo had nice boobs. We can have that in a crusher by this afternoon if you like.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-42904024

Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with the removal of the painting. However, it has done what the Curator wanted. It's provoked debate. I don't agree with your comparisons though. They are somewhat wide of the mark.


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Manchester Art Gallery has removed Hylas and the Nymphs by JW Waterhouse to â€œspark debateâ€ about paintings depicting young girls. Apparently visitors can put up post-it notes to express their feelings about this. One person wrote â€œFeminism gone mad. I am ashamed to be a feministâ€.
Funny, I thought art galleries were supposed to display art not conduct political experiments, but maybe thatâ€™s just me.
Oddly no-one seems to have suggested or even thought about removing art depicting violence, war or murder. 
The very fact that we are even considering this shows that in a few short weeks this shift towards a puritanical society has gone too far.
If we are removing art how is this going to help us educate our young? Perhaps parents should consider this aspect of their childrenâ€™s lives too?
Just a few months ago we were condemning ISIS for destroying art and ancient architecture. To me this has echoes of that.
IMO this gallery is a disgrace to its own reason for being. Any public funding should be withdrawn.
As I said in an earlier post, when will this have gone too far for your own comfort? Are we there yet? Or are you hungry for more? That Venus Di Milo had nice boobs. We can have that in a crusher by this afternoon if you like.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-42904024

Click to expand...

Whilst I believe its a bit OTT removing the picture I really appreciate that it has sparked quite a debate. And it is the debate that will help society recalibrate itself. Maybe the means will justify the end.


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I strongly disagree with the removal of the painting. However, it has done what the Curator wanted. It's provoked debate. I don't agree with your comparisons though. They are somewhat wide of the mark.
		
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Was the debate even needed? Is that the role of a gallery?
Are my comparisons really wide of the mark? Would you have thought we would be talking about the removal of a painting just a few weeks ago?
The title of this thread is getting more apt by the hour.


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2018)

What if the general view was that all such art should be removed? Now that would be funny. The gallery would crap itself. It would have nothing to show.
I always thought Manchester Art Gallery took up too much space in a prime area. Itâ€™s a cracking spot for a McDonalds.


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## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Was the debate even needed? Is that the role of a gallery?
Are my comparisons really wide of the mark? Would you have thought we would be talking about the removal of a painting just a few weeks ago?
The title of this thread is getting more apt by the hour.
		
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Debate is never a bad thing, is it? Do you not appreciate the irony in attempting to deny the debate, as well as threatening the future of the Gallery (which is usually excellent) by trying to remove funding from it, just because you disagree with the action it took.


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Debate is never a bad thing, is it? Do you not appreciate the irony in attempting to deny the debate, as well as threatening the future of the Gallery (which is usually excellent) by trying to remove funding from it, just because you disagree with the action it took.
		
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Where on earth do you get that I am trying to stifle the debate? I am posting about it. I am encouraging the debate. Instead of sttacking the poster how about you debate the topic?
In my view the gallery is there to display art and promote the arts. Not to deny public access to works of art or impose censorship. Any public money it receives is to promote access to art for the public. If it isnâ€™t going to do that then what are we paying for?


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## bluewolf (Feb 4, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Where on earth do you get that I am trying to stifle the debate? I am posting about it. I am encouraging the debate. Instead of sttacking the poster how about you debate the topic?
In my view the gallery is there to display art and promote the arts. Not to deny public access to works of art or impose censorship. Any public money it receives is to promote access to art for the public. If it isnâ€™t going to do that then what are we paying for?
		
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Calm down. I'm not attacking anyone. 

The gallery has done something. Something I disagree with. It's started a debate. Hopefully, they'll take on board the comments and we'll all learn something. 

With regards to public funding. We're not all going to agree with where public money goes. Demanding that funding should stop because we don't agree with the message is unnecessary. The gallery has done something that will most likely prove very useful in the long term. Now I'm not a fan of deliberately provocative art, but surely they've fulfilled their remit...


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Calm down. I'm not attacking anyone. 

The gallery has done something. Something I disagree with. It's started a debate. Hopefully, they'll take on board the comments and we'll all learn something. 

With regards to public funding. We're not all going to agree with where public money goes. Demanding that funding should stop because we don't agree with the message is unnecessary. The gallery has done something that will most likely prove very useful in the long term. Now I'm not a fan of deliberately provocative art, but surely they've fulfilled their remit...
		
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How can it be useful for a gallery to not show art?
How is a gallery fulfilling a remit by not showing art?
Give the painting to a gallery who will display it. That is what the public pay for.

Again, how far down this road do we have to go before itâ€™s too far for you? What if it doesnâ€™t stop there?

To me this is a very worrying escalation. Much of my posting on this thread has been in relation to us sleepwalking into giving away personal freedoms. This is not unprecedented. There are ultra conservative nationâ€™s within a 6 hour plane ride from here. I donâ€™t need to tell you about what living there means for women but if we went as far as women being covered head to toe, would that be too far for you? Or is that OK? Is that the future we want for our daughters?
We are very rich indeed if we can afford to whittle away freedoms because once they are gone itâ€™s a lot harder to win them back. We are playing with fire.

As I posted here earlier, the victorians were in public at least very straight laced, going as far as covering the lower legs of furniture because they resembled ladies ankles and a lady never showed her ankles. JW Waterhouse was a Victorian artist. Even the victorians has no issue with it. Itâ€™s art. Itâ€™s not porn. If we canâ€™t tell the difference then we have lost the plot. I never thought I would ever live to see the day 150 year old paintings were censored in Britain. Britain of all places.

Last night I watched a dating show where people met naked. Completely uncensored.This morning we are removing paintings depicting nudity. The world really has gone mad.


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## Slime (Feb 4, 2018)

bluewolf said:



*Calm down.* *I'm not attacking anyone. *

The gallery has done something. Something I disagree with. It's started a debate. Hopefully, they'll take on board the comments and we'll all learn something. 

With regards to public funding. We're not all going to agree with where public money goes. Demanding that funding should stop because we don't agree with the message is unnecessary. The gallery has done something that will most likely prove very useful in the long term. Now I'm not a fan of deliberately provocative art, but surely they've fulfilled their remit...
		
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## Slime (Feb 4, 2018)

Sweep said:



			How can it be useful for a gallery to not show art?
How is a gallery fulfilling a remit by not showing art?
Give the painting to a gallery who will display it. That is what the public pay for.

Again,* how far down this road do we have to go before itâ€™s too far* for you? What if it doesnâ€™t stop there?

To me this is a very worrying escalation. Much of my posting on this thread has been in relation to us sleepwalking into giving away personal freedoms. This is not unprecedented. There are ultra conservative nationâ€™s within a 6 hour plane ride from here. I donâ€™t need to tell you about what living there means for women but if we went as far as women being covered head to toe, would that be too far for you? Or is that OK? Is that the future we want for our daughters?
We are very rich indeed if we can afford to whittle away freedoms because once they are gone itâ€™s a lot harder to win them back. We are playing with fire.

As I posted here earlier, the victorians were in public at least very straight laced, going as far as covering the lower legs of furniture because they resembled ladies ankles and a lady never showed her ankles. JW Waterhouse was a Victorian artist. *Even the victorians has no issue with it. Itâ€™s art. Itâ€™s not porn.* If we canâ€™t tell the difference then we have lost the plot. I never thought I would ever live to see the day 150 year old paintings were censored in Britain. Britain of all places.

Last night I watched a dating show where people met naked. Completely uncensored.This morning we are removing paintings depicting nudity. The world really has gone mad.
		
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I totally agree with your sentiment.
It's a good job that the Sistine Chapel is not in this country!
A magnificent piece of art, full of nudity, I shudder at the thought of what may happen.


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## User20205 (Feb 4, 2018)

Slime said:



			I really hope not, for her sake, as she'll never succeed and will only end up disappointed.
		
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Slime said:








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By making it specific to his daughter you absolutely started that, itâ€™s worrying that you canâ€™t see that. 
Re the art gallery, Iâ€™m sure one of its cornerstones is to encourage debate & hold a mirror up to society, sounds like its doing that to me.
All this talk of painting over anything or burning books is reactionary nonsense. Some art has been removed, it can be replaced, sounds a pretty clever idea to me.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2018)

therod said:



			Some art has been removed,
		
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If it has been removed purely because it doesn't fit some groups idea of 'political correctness'...
Then that is totally and utterly so wrong...

Just as it was totally and utterly wrong when one sector complained about the chap dressed as a girl [at my place of work] as it didn't fit their idea of 'political correctness'...

The world needs a kick up the backside in hope of it causing a return to reasonableness... Hey ho..

Folk need to allowed to be what they want to be unless it actually causes harm to others..
Damaged feelings don't count...

And, those that feel the need of doing holier than thou can shove it...


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## User20205 (Feb 4, 2018)

If it has been removed to fit some puritanical agenda then thatâ€™s wrong, itâ€™s my belief thatâ€™s itâ€™s a â€˜debate provokerâ€™ Which is interesting.
I do reckon itâ€™s gonna be an â€˜interestingâ€™ period until an equilibrium is reached, but extreme actions/examples only polarise and entrench people. The current climate does make you challenge some of the previous norms & not all of them look good under the current spotlight. There may be a few more of these â€˜worlds gone madâ€™ moments


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2018)

therod said:



			Some art has been removed, it can be replaced, sounds a pretty clever idea to me.
		
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But what if itâ€™s not replaced? Would that be ok with you? What if it goes the other way and all such art is taken down? If you canâ€™t answer that then what is the point of â€œsparking the debateâ€. As I say, playing with fire.

Clever? It sounds more like complacency to me. Letâ€™s put this in context with the real world. The galleryâ€™s sole reason for being is to display art. My companyâ€™s sole reason for being is to sell stuff. How about I go in tomorrow and suggest we try an experiment to spark debate and not sell anything? We could debate all day on how long it will take us to go bust. Oh and btw, we are not publically funded. We are not playing with your money.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2018)

Have they just brought it down on a temporary basis and have asked for comments about bringing it down ? They appear to be garnishing views on how people are seeing the art and attempted to promote free thinking and debate about the impact of a piece of art ? Surely it sounds like a good social experiment which the gallery can use for the future 

Art and indef galleries arenâ€™t just there the just to show something off - they are also there to provoke thought in us all , a good bit of art can provide multiple views which provide healthy debate .


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## User20205 (Feb 4, 2018)

Sweep said:



			But what if itâ€™s not replaced? Would that be ok with you?
		
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 no
This is all supposition, but what if the curator came out & said he was doing it to hold a mirror up to the current climate to show it up for the witch hunt it can be deemed as? 
batten down the hatches it might get worse before itâ€™s sorts itself out


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2018)

therod said:



			no
This is all supposition, but what if the curator came out & said he was doing it to hold a mirror up to the current climate to show it up for the witch hunt it can be deemed as? 
batten down the hatches it might get worse before itâ€™s sorts itself out
		
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Nothing so clever I am afraid.
Apparently they are putting it back up... just before a big event they need footfall for. Colour me cynical.
it seems to me that they are part of the witchunt.
Seemingly there has been little debate on the painting itself or indeed about our view of such material. The move has certainly sparked a debate but more about the galleryâ€™s decision to remove it. Apparently they even removed postcards of it from the gift shop but did not state whether this was part of the initiative. All this left many questioning how they could possibly debate the issue if they couldnâ€™t see the painting.


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## Beezerk (Feb 4, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Apparently they are putting it back up... just before a big event they need footfall for. Colour me cynical.
		
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There will be only one winner out of this debacle, the art gallery. Publicity stunt?
Who knows.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 4, 2018)

Whether you agree or disagree with the current trend to reevaluate the role of women in our society and people speaking out with #metoo and #timesup, I really don't think it's "puritanical". It's more looking at situations where women are objectified, sexually harassed/abused or discriminated against and questioning the rights and wrongs about it. I don't think everything that we hear about is necessarily helpful but hopefully we'll eventually arrive at a new normal which strikes the right balance. Seems I'm an optimist after all! 

The world has indeed gone mad, but this isn't an example of it.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 4, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Whether you agree or disagree with the current trend to reevaluate the role of women in our society and people speaking out with #metoo and #timesup, I really don't think it's "puritanical". It's more looking at situations where women are objectified, sexually harassed/abused or discriminated against and questioning the rights and wrongs about it. I don't think everything that we hear about is necessarily helpful but hopefully we'll eventually arrive at a new normal which strikes the right balance. Seems I'm an optimist after all! 

The world has indeed gone mad, but this isn't an example of it.
		
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Excellent post and amen brother...




s*&t, sorry, I meant sister.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2018)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42960503

Disgusting advert, I hope everyone on here is offended.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42960503

Disgusting advert, I hope everyone on here is offended.
		
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Professionally outraged at it again! It's been banned anyway! Ill advised at best by Tunnocks but what's the old adage in advertising "sex sells". Not the first or the last company to use this sort of tactic. Seen far more offensive stuff out there advertising stuff (not all banned)


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42960503

Disgusting advert, I hope everyone on here is offended.
		
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I see no problem with the advert as long as they had an equivalent advert showing a man doing something similar. I assume that they will now look again at the decision to reject the complaints over the Paco Rabanne advert which shows a man stripping while being watched through a 2 way mirror by a group of women. Or the diet Coke adverts with the half naked man.


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## Sweep (Feb 8, 2018)

Surely if you kept your Tunnockâ€™s there, they would melt?
Do they still sell 5m Caramel Wafers a week? I have always been a bit sceptical about that claim, though they are extremely good!
I do love a tunnocks.
Hmmm I am going to have to go and buy some now. Maybe advertising does work.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 8, 2018)

It got people talking about Tunnocks. Kerching. Success.

I agree with a previous poster, total hypocrisy about the outrage. Non story.


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## Slime (Feb 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42960503

Disgusting advert, I hope everyone on here is offended.
		
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I'm not.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2018)

The figures for FGM are skyrocketing and the concerns are birds with their baps out and a tongue in cheek ad for a marshmallow...


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## Sweep (Feb 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The figures for FGM are skyrocketing and the concerns are birds with their baps out and a tongue in cheek ad for a marshmallow...
		
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Excellent post and gets right to the point.
Society has lost the plot.


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2018)

There are several major issues that the main media won't touch.   

Wonder why?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The figures for FGM are skyrocketing and the concerns are birds with their baps out and a tongue in cheek ad for a marshmallow...
		
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Am I to understand that we not allowed to discuss any issues in society if there are bigger issues out there?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			There are several major issues that the main media won't touch.   

Wonder why?
		
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Yes, quite frustrating at times.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Am I to understand that we not allowed to discuss any issues in society if there are bigger issues out there?
		
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Perhaps not when it allows other 'stuff' to be swept under the carpet...

I might not appear to but I do get the bigger picture [mostly]....

A bit of outrage [however mild] against a very much tongue in cheek poster as against virtually zip about what we should be concerned about doesn't add up... 

Lets be dealing with the 'big stuff' first and the rest [hopefully] should fall into place...


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Am I to understand that we not allowed to discuss any issues in society if there are bigger issues out there?
		
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If course not, but it begs the question why certain things get major coverage and some are "avoided" by certain part of the media.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps not when it allows other 'stuff' to be swept under the carpet...

I might not appear to but I do get the bigger picture [mostly]....

A bit of outrage [however mild] against a very much tongue in cheek poster as against virtually zip about what we should be concerned about doesn't add up... 

Lets be dealing with the 'big stuff' first and the rest [hopefully] should fall into place...
		
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What if the "small stuff" is a factor in the "big stuff"?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			If course not, but it begs the question why certain things get major coverage and some are "avoided" by certain part of the media.
		
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Do you have an answer to that question?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 9, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			What if the "small stuff" is a factor in the "big stuff"?
		
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You know that flowchart that goes along the lines of "Is it Broken" Yes or No, "Did you touch it"  etc?  Well sorry but your question above doesn't fit into that so you can't ask it


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Do you have an answer to that question?
		
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Not an answer, but I have an opinion.   I think the government/media as so worried about a serious backlash, certain things are marginalised.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			What if the "small stuff" is a factor in the "big stuff"?
		
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Sorry I am not clever enough for a good response...

A bit too open ended... Possibly...


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			Not an answer, but I have an opinion.   I think the government/media as so worried about a serious backlash, certain things are marginalised.
		
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Like, as in they don't want to be left open to the possibility of having the R word thrown at them...


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## drdel (Feb 9, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Like, as in they don't want to be left open to the possibility of having the R word thrown at them...
		
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Because in the UK's open democracy we walk the tightrope above anarchy.


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## Sweep (Feb 10, 2018)

There is no reason why stuff like the Tunnocks advert and FGM cannot both be discussed. The fact is that they are not and it is staggering that something as abhorrent as FGM does not get more coverage from the media, government, society in general (including men) and especially feminist organisations. 
Just yesterday a Muslim cleric in Ireland was quoted as saying female circumcision should be allowed under the law in Ireland and viewed in the same way as male circumcision. 5790 girls have been subjected to it in Ireland and a further 2639 considered at risk even though itâ€™s unlawful.

You could say both the Tunnocks advert and FGM are part of the same problem but we all know which is the more serious aspect. Hopefully President Oprah will make a speech soon to condem FGM. Maybe then people will take notice. Or maybe many in Hollywood are lucky enough not to be able to say â€œme tooâ€.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 14, 2018)

Apparently bare arms are now a no no...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43049517


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2018)

Dress appropriately for the work that you do. Nothing radical about that. If you want to be taken seriously then don't wear your Friday night gear, don't wear anything that may be deemed provocative. That applies to men and women.


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its the right move and the right step forward , itâ€™s something that belongs in the dark ages - there is no reason for them to be three beyond watching *old or fat men perv all over her* ( Hence why Barnevld is complaining ) - I suspect if they walked on with two guys they wouldnâ€™t be throwing the toys out if that stopped. Hopefully all the sports will follow their lead.
		
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A bit discriminatory on young & thin blokes that like an oggle. 

It feels a bit over the top to me.


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I remember when the ladies at my club were told they would all have equal standing with the male members. They basically already did, they could play Saturday mornings etc unless there was a 'male only' competition (which wasn't that often) so they really didn't gain very much at all. They had to pay an extra Â£500 a year though and guess what......nobody actually asked them if they wanted this new deal or not but thanks to the PC brigade it was forced upon them.
		
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My mother in law told me a similar story. 
She said that loads of women ended up not renewing membership because it was their husbands that paid for them anyway and they didn't play enough golf to warrant the new cost.... lol


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			10,000 knuckle draggers in the darts scene, wow who would have thunk that. 

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Hahaha, knuckle draggers, lol


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			As a father of a 11 year old girl, and therefore maybe possibly a bit over sensitive to this issue,  I approve of any measure that encourages women and girls to aim for something bit more than looking nice to please men. As a hell of a lot of media images kind of promotes this. 

There is a massive issue with teenage girls nowadays leading to mental health issues, a lot fuelled by traditional and social media, for girls to try and be seen to look attractive and having a great life. And any initiative that moves us away from that is fine by me. 

Fully agree that darts girls is not the most pressing issue society has to address to try with regards to equality, and that this was led by the broadcasters who are mostly worried about the profit they can make from the sport, as opposed to equality for all. But as they say, every little helps.  I am sure the darts girls who make their living from basically looking pretty will find a lot of other avenues to exploit in todays society so I can't feel that sorry for them to be honest.
		
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As a father of a 4 year old girl, I really couldn't care less whether darts have walk on ladies, F1 has pit girls, boxing has ring girls. 

But as a father of a 1 year old boy, I am seriously concerned about David Gandy and his incessant need to promote his good looks in order to please women. 

Out of interest, what jobs do you expect these darts girls to move into next?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 14, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Dress appropriately for the work that you do. Nothing radical about that. If you want to be taken seriously then don't wear your Friday night gear, don't wear anything that may be deemed provocative. That applies to men and women.
		
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Bare arms are hardly 'provocative'... Are they?


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			What would be everyone's reaction if the girls were replaced by equally scantily clad blokes?
		
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I think my reaction would be one of surprise. 
For a sport with an overwhelmingly male following, it would be pretty odd to feature men in speedos.


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Is there a reason why darts is not a mixed sport? Genuine question.
Would it make any difference to this issue if it was?
		
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Because the women's averages are so significantly shy of the men's that they would not feature at all in a tournament. 

Page  1  
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]*Rank*[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]*Player*[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]*Country*[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]*Average*[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]*Year*[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]*Round*[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]*Opponent*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]1[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Anca Zijlstra[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Netherlands[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite, align: right"]88.41[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]2017[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Final[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Maria O Brien[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]2[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Lisa Ashton[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]England[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite, align: right"]82.44[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]2016[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Semi Final[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Rhian Griffiths[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]3[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Deta Hedman[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]England[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite, align: right"]79.32[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]2016[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Semi Final[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Trina Gulliver[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Lisa Ashton[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]England[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite, align: right"]78.48[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]2016[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Final[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Deta Hedman[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Anca Zijlstra[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Netherlands[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite, align: right"]70.08[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]2017[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Semi Final[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Tricia Wright[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]6[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Maria O Brien[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]England[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite, align: right"]66.24[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]2017[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Semi Final[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: floralwhite"]Sarah Roberts[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The top 64 male averages are higher than the best lady. And she is quite a lot higher than second place. 

http://tsod.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14995


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Bare arms are hardly 'provocative'... Are they?
		
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No to be fair. I was extending the point made by the lady in the article. The point she was making was that men would never be in the same role and show off their full arms so why would women? It inevitably draws your eyes, most bare flesh does if even for a split second, and that takes you away from what the person is saying. There is no need to dress that way in a work environment. Feel free to mention Michelle Obama, she answers that one as well.


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## User20205 (Feb 14, 2018)

I have a confession, I looked at these pictures & enjoyed them  but not too much 

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news/...9.1765360128.1518437883-2065187586.1515508559

is it empowering I don't know. maybe I'm being exploited


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## USER1999 (Feb 14, 2018)

therod said:



			I have a confession, I looked at these pictures & enjoyed them  but not too much 

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news/...9.1765360128.1518437883-2065187586.1515508559

is it empowering I don't know. maybe I'm being exploited 

Click to expand...

Even though I knew what that link was, I still clicked on it to have another look. I think you have been empowered to exploit me.


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

Pin-seeker said:



			Do you still watch Strictly to see women in Little clothing as youâ€™ve stated in the past?
		
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Lol


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## londonlewis (Feb 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You belittled the chances of his daughter or any other young lady by saying they have no chance of being an F1 driver and will only end up in disappointment - pretty much telling them donâ€™t bother having a dream like that.
		
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We will have to stop all the world's women from reading the comment on the golf forum then. 

This seems to be getting a bit ridiculous now, isn't it? 

Something you often hear from successful people is 'ignore the people that tell you, you can't ...' 
People say 'you can't' all the time. If you want something badly enough, you'll achieve it. 

So surely, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says if you are determined enough. If a female is put off trying to become an F1 driver just because someone says they will never make it, then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have made it anyway.


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## Slime (Feb 14, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Apparently bare arms are now a no no...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43049517

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Surely going sleeveless is their choice, utterly ridiculous statement by Campbell in my opinion.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 14, 2018)

therod said:



			I have a confession, I looked at these pictures & enjoyed them  but not too much 

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news/...9.1765360128.1518437883-2065187586.1515508559

is it empowering I don't know. maybe I'm being exploited 

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I also found them rather enjoyable &#128513;


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2018)

Cor blimey guv...........https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...g-trees-flying-kites-or-playing-a3768126.html


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## Dasit (Feb 17, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cor blimey guv...........https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...g-trees-flying-kites-or-playing-a3768126.html

Click to expand...

People still believe what they read from the newspapers and the media?


The real world gone mad is the sensationalist headlines and out of context summaries of news and events...Everyone wants to push their agenda.


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