# 20+ yards EXTRA on your drives GUARANTEED!!!!!!! (or your money back!!)



## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Part ONE:

OK, so I did a poll a few days ago where a whopping 86% of the vote said YES they would like 20 yards extra on their drives.... so now I'm going to give it to you 


Following on from a few PM's I've received and a few recent posts (eg Pokerjoke's thread about Rory's power move) I thought I might aswell share with you the one thing that has hardly (if ever) been discussed on the forum... and it's the one key to POWER.

The only person I've ever discussed it with until this week is Region3, and a couple of small comments via PM's.

I hasten to add (and you'll be pleased to know) that this isn't necessarily a S&T thing, although it is the backbone of good impact for S&Tplayers, if not all players.


So let's take a moment to talk about Rory's power move.. *the fast turning hips*, well actually it ISN'T his hips that are doing the work...... it's his legs. You see what is REALLY happening is on his downswing he re-flexes his knees so they look like this.......




and then he PUSHES OFF THE GROUND as if he were jumping in the air!!

This is known as EXTENSION and it does THIS to your belt line.....




As you can see (look at the sign behind his left hip) his belt line has gone up by about 3 or 4 inches in just a short space of downswing....

what is happening is he pushes off the ground and allows his hip to open at the same time.. he is pushing forwards (with momentum) and up. *This will fire your hips like nothing you've ever seen before!!!!

*It's not possible to turn your hips FAST when they are loaded with your body weight. If you try to 'pull' your hips around with your left oblique muscles they simply can't do it fast enough.. but when you push up the power from your legs will re-align your hips faster than a slicer at a stack and tilt party.

So another example from Rory....




If you look at the guy behind him you can see how much higher the belt buckle has gone, again this is during the downswing..

So just Rory? Well no. Pretty much ALL good golfers do this, they use Mother Earth to push against on the downswing . Let's take a look at Luke Donald.....






As you can see by the dark patch of grass behind him his hips have travelled forwards and UP.

It's no use just trying to turn your hips... that will get you precisely NOWHERE and yet that's all 99.9% of golfers think you have to do, WHY? because no one ever told them......




Part Two on the way.....................


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## Val (Jan 24, 2012)

Interesting, so what happens to the theory you should maintain your height in the swing?


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## Brookesy (Jan 24, 2012)

I bet if i tried this id just top the ball lol


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 24, 2012)

Interesting theory but just how realistic do you think that is to achieve for the majority on here? Pretty slim I'd say.


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## moogie (Jan 24, 2012)

Id echo homer here........ Ok if u are in decent shape with good flexibility


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## Val (Jan 24, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Interesting theory but just how realistic do you think that is to achieve for the majority on here? Pretty slim I'd say.
		
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I agree homer, would it be worth the heartache and hassle for 20 yards and not guaranteed straight?

You could always buy a reg shaft G20, that would be easier.


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## USER1999 (Jan 24, 2012)

Valentino said:



			Interesting, so what happens to the theory you should maintain your height in the swing?
		
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It's just that, a theory. Faldo did just that. 6 ft 4 ish, built like a tank, hit it like a powder puff.

Tiger does this move a lot.


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

PART TWO.

Pros used to say to us about finishing in a nice high finish... but what did that ever really mean?

Did anyone ever to tell you to jump? To push yourself off the ground? I don't think so.... I don't know why.


So here's Tiger... as we all know he likes to 'lose his levels' as commentators like to say.. but they also use the expression 'compressing into the ground', that is because that is exactly what he is doing...

here's a pic showing his belt line and his EXTENSION though the ball...




His belt has gone up about 5" from where it was..


Now... if you REALLY try hard, you can practically get youself airborne!!

Take a look at Matt Every from the USA....



He pushes off the ground so hard he is left on his tippy toes  His left heel is completely off the ground!!

Now this is NOT possible if you are simply rotating your hips.. believe me you can rotate as fast as you want..you are *not* a helicopter, you cannot get into the air unless you push down hard.

So let's take a look at BUBBA WATSON....

Well he pushes down pretty hard and extends his legs until they practically dangle there below him...





You can see he's alsoon his tippy toes.. I've seen him airborne on some swings (couldn't find one on Youtube though).

So how come pushing down makes all this happen? Well it has to do with 2 things..1) it frees up the hips to turn properly and fast 2) it uses centripetal force to change the radius of the arc that the club is swinging on.. you are moving the pivot point upwards and that causes acceleration...



Part three coming...........


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## Dodger (Jan 24, 2012)

What and who's money you giving back??:mmm:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 24, 2012)

To be honest is 20 yards the be all and end all. We're rolling towards the summer again 




 and even I with my modest 230 average can get home on most par 4's in 2 (technique allowing). I'd rather have a swing that works regularly, focus on getting the short game house in order and then looking at becoming a holing out god on the greens


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## Naybrains (Jan 24, 2012)

Errrr JO, youve got to much time on your hands!
Interesting all the same.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			PART TWO.

Pros used to say to us about finishing in a nice high finish... but what did that ever really mean?

Did anyone ever to tell you to jump? To push yourself off the ground? I don't think so.... I don't know why.


So here's Tiger... as we all know he likes to 'lose his levels' as commentators like to say.. but they also use the expression 'compressing into the ground', that is because that is exactly what he is doing...

here's a pic showing his belt line and his EXTENSION though the ball...

View attachment 609


His belt has gone up about 5" from where it was..


Now... if you REALLY try hard, you can practically get youself airborne!!

Take a look at Matt Every from the USA....
View attachment 610


He pushes off the ground so hard he is left on his tippy toes  His left heel is completely off the ground!!

Now this is NOT possible if you are simply rotating your hips.. believe me you can rotate as fast as you want..you are *not* a helicopter, you cannot get into the air unless you push down hard.

So let's take a look at BUBBA WATSON....

Well he pushes down pretty hard and extends his legs until they practically dangle there below him...


View attachment 611


You can see he's alsoon his tippy toes.. I've seen him airborne on some swings (couldn't find one on Youtube though).

So how come pushing down makes all this happen? Well it has to do with 2 things..1) it frees up the hips to turn properly and fast 2) it uses centripetal force to change the radius of the arc that the club is swinging on.. you are moving the pivot point upwards and that causes acceleration...



Part three coming...........
		
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I've got to be honest and say whilst its all very intereting it bears no resemblance to the game I play or the level of golf I'm trying to achieve. I wouldn't want to try and replicate these moves and I'm not in a position to get in those positions. I understand the logic but think your preaching to the wrong congregation on the whole.


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## Naybrains (Jan 24, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I've got to be honest and say whilst its all very intereting it bears no resemblance to the game I play or the level of golf I'm trying to achieve. I wouldn't want to try and replicate these moves and I'm not in a position to get in those positions. I understand the logic but think your preaching to the wrong congregation on the whole.
		
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MB your such a spoilsport. The guys putting his heart and soul into these threads.:lol:


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## DappaDonDave (Jan 24, 2012)

"$5 guarantee you?"

Looks good, may explain why i can drive the ball better than any other shot I attempt...bent knees


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

PART THREE


Here's Paul Casey............



Rickie fowler




and Ernie Els




you see it doesn't matter what swing type you have, they ALL implement this move.

We have a guy on the forum who hits the ball quite a long way.. I think he's known amongst the golfing Gods as "Swinger the great"....

Shall we take a look at our boy at impact?






He's either floating or he pushed off the ground, like I said you don't get airborne unless you push yourself up.. his left foot is actually off the floor and his right foot is just sniffing the grass 

So there you go... 2Â½ years on the forum and I thought i'd share that with you............... didn't take long 

I was forever wondering if someone else might ever bring up the subject..... but they didn't.

So how do you practice this move that gives you so much power and yet hardly anyone ever talks about it?, well here's a VIDEO hidden away on Youtube....

Try it... I think you'll find it's like putting nitrous oxide in your swing.... ironically it's called POWER RYTHM TIMING

[video=youtube;t086PuIVJho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t086PuIVJho[/video]

Now you can use this 'bounce method' to get you started but really you only need to concern yourself with the bounce that takes you TOWARDS THE TARGET. Eventually you won't bounce, you'll FIRE yourself up onto your left side as your legs both extend in sync and your hips will open as fast as you want them to...!


Best of luck with that... now I'm going to check all you knobs that posted whilst I was head down typing (I bet someone's replied already!!) and see if someone's going to parp up with "Yeh, I was saying that all along!" :rofl:


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Take what you WANT from it... this *IS* the power move, disect it all you want. This is the one that will get you maxed out... Swinger can't go any faster unfortunately as he's already flying!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 24, 2012)

I really get where you are coming from and if you are keen enough to give it a go I'd love to know who has found success on here with it. If Smiffy does it and it works heck I'll convert. Until then I'll remain a sceptic and say its one for the lithe, supple and talented and that rules me out on all three counts


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

I can hit a 300yds fade Homer.... and that's with a knackered left knee at the moment so bad I can't walk without limping, believe me it works.


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## bluewolf (Jan 24, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			its one for the lithe, supple and talented
		
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OOh, Im in then... Nice write up JO. I'll give that a try at the range tomorrow, but if I need a Chiropractor then you're bloody paying....


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## Naybrains (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I can hit a 300yds fade Homer.... and that's with a knackered left knee at the moment so bad I can't walk without limping, believe me it works.
		
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Lol!!!:clap: ne:


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## Dodger (Jan 24, 2012)

Right, just spent Â£20 on fuel to the range and it does not work.

Send me the cheque please thanks.


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## Piece (Jan 24, 2012)

Isn't this simply called clearing the hips and hitting into a left side? Clearing the hips properly gives a straight left side which raises the apparent belt height but not the head height. Pushing off the ground doesn't seem the right way to describe it...this is forcing an action that should be a natural consequence of good mechanics. My opinion


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Piece said:



			Isn't this simply called clearing the hips and hitting into a left side? Clearing the hips properly gives a straight left side which raises the apparent belt height but not the head height. Pushing off the ground doesn't seem the right way to describe it...this is forcing an action that should be a natural consequence of good mechanics. My opinion 

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No, it's called extension. You force the hips to clear with the legs pushing upwards and not by trying to rotate them super fast (which is pointless) it also keeps you connected (you don't leave the arms half an hour behind your hips). Your head height doesn't change _significantly_ as you are tilted to your left in the backswing, bent forwards at impact and tilted to your right on the follow through.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 24, 2012)

Great stuff JO. This may sound a bit strange but I've always thought that it looked like pro's do something like this. It's always seemed to my untrained eye that they push themselves away from the ground but I've always assumed it 's just a optical illusion and since *NO* teacher I have ever spoken to has ever said anything along these lines I guess I've never thought anything of it.

Not sure I have the strength or fitness to attempt it but interesting none the less.


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

On the contrary, it puts *far less* strain on the body that trying to twist your hips open..... It takes no real strength or fitness.. you can straighten your legs can't you? :ears:


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 24, 2012)

Dodger said:



			Right, just spent Â£20 on fuel to the range and it does not work.

Send me the cheque please thanks.
		
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You need to find a closer range Dodger


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## Alex1975 (Jan 24, 2012)

Post of the year! Very interesting!

Two questions please. Is this just with the driver as its hitting up on the ball? How do you hit the ball consistently with the change in height?

Off to swing a club in the garden to try and feel it out.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			On the contrary, it puts *far less* strain on the body that trying to twist your hips open..... It takes no real strength or fitness.. you can straighten your legs can't you? :ears:
		
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With my knees JO it's a relief everytime I do


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			Post of the year! Very interesting!

Two questions please. Is this just with the driver as its hitting up on the ball? How do you hit the ball consistently with the change in height?

Off to swing a club in the garden to try and feel it out.
		
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That's a great question..(and thanks for the sentiment). It's all clubs, but it has to do with intent. There was a thread about grip pressure and my answer to that is the same as Shawn Clement's you grip the club harder if you are going to hit it harder, softer with soft shots... it's kind of the same, if you're hitting wedge 130 then you extend more softly, if you're going at it from 145 then extend more.... 'vibrantly'


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## Piece (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			No, it's called extension. You force the hips to clear with the legs pushing upwards and not by trying to rotate them super fast (which is pointless) it also keeps you connected (you don't leave the arms half an hour behind your hips). Your head height doesn't change _significantly_ as you are tilted to your left in the backswing, bent forwards at impact and tilted to your right on the follow through.
		
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If you look at pros super slow mo swing, you'll see that the start of the downswing is a shift of the hips to target, then a small hip rotation, AND then the extension or push comes into it.


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Piece said:



			If you look at pros super slow mo swing, you'll see that the start of the downswing is a shift of the hips to target, then a small hip rotation, AND then the extension or push comes into it.
		
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Did that go against something I said?

The pros will often actually start shifting to their left BEFORE they get to the top of their backswing, almost certainly before they start the downswing.

You have to allow the knees to re-flex (bend) before you can push off the ground.

Why not watch Shawn Clem's video above and email him.. he's a qualified PGA pro.


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## Piece (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Did that go against something I said?

The pros will often actually start shifting to their left BEFORE they get to the top of their backswing, almost certainly before they start the downswing.

You have to allow the knees to re-flex (bend) before you can push off the ground.

Why not watch Shawn Clem's video above and email him.. he's a qualified PGA pro.
		
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Nearly on the same page! It's the bit about pushing up to clear the hips that's a bit misleading for me. It's the initial clearing/small turning of the hips that allows the extension and then the fast hips. Its not the pushing up that starts the clearance.

I did see the video...theory is good but leaves the impression that you have to jump up and down in your swing, when actually its a bit more subtle than that, as you've described.


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## DappaDonDave (Jan 24, 2012)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saCohzOxglI&amp;feature=related">[video=youtube;saCohzOxglI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saCohzOxglI&amp;feature=related[/video]

This guy spins during his swing...


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

That is correct Piece,..... you have to have the 'inclination' to be turning the hips... you don't want to extend just forwards.. it is a slight forwards and upwards rotation (the head stays back) but once the hips start you don't need to think about them. I never persoanlly worry about my hips, if I try to rotate them by 'pulling' with my left hip it not only hurts but they go about 50% the speed as when you use extension.


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## grumpyjock (Jan 24, 2012)

Thought this was going to the old quip, wear a skirt and play off the reds.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			On the contrary, it puts *far less* strain on the body that trying to twist your hips open..... It takes no real strength or fitness.. you can straighten your legs can't you? :ears:
		
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I agree,thats all hes basically doing.
No strength needed.
Very good post.


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

DappaDonDave said:



			This guy spins during his swing...
		
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Yes.... because he does THIS............. (massive extension)




Once he gets airborne he can't stop his 'super fired' hips.. there's no purchase on the ground from mid air 

Here's Sadlowski...watch his belt buckle as he straightens his left leg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mqGYlh1jjg he pushes up hard enough that he can get his left foot off the ground and twist it, to do that you have to unload it first..that's a hard push.


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## Piece (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			That is correct Piece,..... you have to have the 'inclination' to be turning the hips... you don't want to extend just forwards.. it is a slight forwards and upwards rotation (the head stays back) but once the hips start you don't need to think about them. I never persoanlly worry about my hips, if I try to rotate them by 'pulling' with my left hip it not only hurts but they go about 50% the speed as when you use extension.
		
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:thup: 

I'm interested to see what I'm doing in my swing. I guess something similar as I'm not a short hitter but I'm always open to hitting further!


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

As I'm S&T I don't drop into the knee bend position like other swings would (might try that actually.....)

But you can see where I'm starting to push off the ground up and towards the target...
[video=youtube;nTN91PiWwQ0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTN91PiWwQ0[/video]

It's a major part of the actual S&T pattern and even I'm nowhere near as much as Rory et al :angry: Damn it!!! :whoo:


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## wull (Jan 24, 2012)

i had to laugh at them(tv studio) picking up on matt emery's feet being practically off the ground at impact.they never seem to moan or mention other players that do it,i'm pretty sure bubba watsons feet are off the ground almost completely at impact and my feet are almost the same.

i didn't realise this until i looked at a picture.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 24, 2012)

I tried it and smacked my head on the roof of the driving range. I want my money back for medical fees.


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			I tried it and smacked my head on the roof of the driving range. I want my money back for medical fees.
		
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LOL... No problem, I'll refund exactly the amount you paid...


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOne said:



			LOL... No problem, I'll refund exactly the amount you paid... 

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Excellent... that's a fiver for a medium bucket of balls and a pack of Mr Bump plasters.


Interesting move this one. Related to the "tucking the butt" S and T move?


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## Philm (Jan 24, 2012)

enjoyable read JO, will give that a whirl at the range some night.

Phil


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Interesting move this one. Related to the "tucking the butt" S and T move?
		
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Hmmmm.... yes and no. It's not exclusively a S&T move which is why I used 'standard' swings as an example. S&T is more about turning the shoulders in  a circle and hitting ball before turf.

(not many people call Rory's swing STANDARD!) LOL


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## Dave B (Jan 24, 2012)

There's a very fine line between balance, speed and control that many amateurs will struggle to master. In addition how many amateurs would benefit in terms of distance and accuracy from simply being to hit the driver out of the middle of the club?

The swing should be a natural controlled movement and after studying the video's and pictures and trying a few moves in the front room, I would suggest that most people actually raise the right heel as the club lags just prior to impact which automatically gives extension. It's possibly one of those movements that occurs without us knowing we are doing it.

At a guess the harder and quicker you swing, the more you will unknowingly extend the leg. You don't have to bounce as some suggest as your body will automatically compensate to retain balance. 

It is a very good thought provoking thread and does give an insight to the swing however if people start hopping down the range in a bid to get as much leg extension as Rory my guess is they'll lose balance, miss the ball ad fall over


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

This gives you balance Dave, as you are extending up over your hips (our most balanced place) and not trying to spin them out at 300mph... possible doing yourself a mischief. I thought I'd fess up after reading Pokerjoke's post and thinking I wouldn't want to see people getting hurt trying to spin their hips like Rory without knowing how it's done.


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## DaveM (Jan 24, 2012)

Bloody hell I'm going to agree with James!!!!!!!!! This is something I have always done. Not something I consciously do. It just happened. Let me explain. Now there is not much of me. Only 5'6" and 9 stone wringing wet. So any sport that has required power I have to use as many muscle groups as I can. In the golf swing it is that move. Plus the more lag and the faster, I can move my hands though impact the better.

Still only puts me at the mid to top end of medium hitting though. Although the other day I was hitting 130yds with a half to threequarter swing, with a 9 iron, as I had my timing spot on, for once.

Good post by the way:cheers: ..


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## Dreamer2 (Jan 24, 2012)

well bugger me ,i always thought that was called quail & release,,this is what Ive been practicing

you have to be very positive with your swing because when the timing isn't wright you will take a bigger divot than normally  
but when it does go right it feels so smooth you don't even feel the contact on the ball you just hear the noise ,the moment your head lifts up & your eyes make contact with the ball,it looks the most perfect shoot of the day ,i say that because not many go's right were you get that feeling

i find it easier if i grip down the club Little bit more than normal


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

DaveM said:



			Bloody hell I'm going to agree with James!!!!!!!!! This is something I have always done.
		
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^
^
^
See what I did there?


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## HickoryShaft (Jan 24, 2012)

Fantastic post - very well explained.

For me it is not so much the distance (although god do I need it as testified by earlier posts) but the ease of movement that strikes me most. When I have been playing well I always feel that my swing has been smooth and fluid and the ball striking reflects this. When I have struggled my swing has felt more mechanical without quite being sure why. Reading your pointers and watching the video you posted from Shaun Clement made me really think about that element more - hopefully understanding this will help with the consistency.

Cant wait to hit the range and try it all out

Thanks for a great post.


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

HickoryShaft said:



			Cant wait to hit the range and try it all out
		
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Would be interesting to get some feedback if you do.


All the best. <thumbs up>


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## timchump (Jan 25, 2012)

thanks for sharing really interesting reading, it must require some timing....

it could possibly help with my swing, i have issues with the club grounding before the ball on my downswing,  my head defintley drops on the transistion, i think i have readjusted by swinging too much over the top, perhaps i lift my hips more i'll be able to swing on plane more, anyway i digress

i'll give it a go at the range, knowing me if i don't see results after about 10 balls i'll probably give up


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## Alex1975 (Jan 25, 2012)

James, one more question, its an upward movement with the mid rift, does this shoot the ball high? I know lag and bla bla but if I through my arms in an upward finish(if that makes any sense the ball goes high so this must have a similar effect?


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## wull (Jan 25, 2012)

this is not the best pic as it was a still from a video and it's maybe a bit late on in the sequence but you can see my left heel is off the ground with just my toes from both feet touching.

does this suggest i myself do what you are talking about with pushing up from my feet and legs?


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## Snelly (Jan 25, 2012)

James,

You must be right on this as I do it too!  Mind you, I am not conscious of it and wonder if you actively try and do it as a move in the swing then it may cause a few problems.  




Snelly


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 25, 2012)

As do I, at least that's what it feels like on the occasions that I "bomb" it.


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

wull said:



			does this suggest i myself do what you are talking about with pushing up from my feet and legs?
		
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Hard to say, there's a difference between pushing UP and just having the weight on your toes. Once you start pushing up you won't want to stop, and you'll know you are doing it.


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## USER1999 (Jan 25, 2012)

Snelly said:



			James,

You must be right on this as I do it too!  Mind you, I am not conscious of it and wonder if you actively try and do it as a move in the swing then it may cause a few problems.  




Snelly

View attachment 618

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Nice black work socks and shorts combo. Not what I would have expected.


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

Alex1975 said:



			James, one more question, its an upward movement with the mid rift, does this shoot the ball high? I know lag and bla bla but if I through my arms in an upward finish(if that makes any sense the ball goes high so this must have a similar effect?
		
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The harder you hit a ball the more spin it creates, it might go higher because of that but it shouldn't affect your launch angle.... if you do it well you might need a stiffer shaft to accommodate all that extra clubhead speed!


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## wull (Jan 25, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Hard to say, there's a difference between pushing UP and just having the weight on your toes. Once you start pushing up you won't want to stop, and you'll know you are doing it.
		
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i've never really thought about it but now that you have mentioned it i may notice it out on the course now.


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

Snelly aren't those Leftie's old shoes? 

The more you do it Snelly the more natural it becomes. Anything new will be a conscious thought/feeling for a while.


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## Snelly (Jan 25, 2012)

:rofl:

Thanks Murph! When in Rome and all that...... This was on a very warm day at the Atlantico course, Penha Longa near Lisbon.  You mentioned you might be going there and if you do, this is worth a visit.  A superb course.  The hole in the picture is a belter.  Par 5 downhill and the second shot (or 3rd) is over a lake.  Not only that but the right hand side and rear of the green, are perfectly framed by a medival castle.  It is very nice indeed.  Good eating and drinking in Cascais too..

As for the outfit, slight faux pas with the brown shoes but never mind.  I can't understand the white socks rule in golf.  Looks ridiculous so I ignore it wherever possible.

Cheers,


Snelly.


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## Alex1975 (Jan 25, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The harder you hit a ball the more spin it creates, it might go higher because of that but it shouldn't affect your launch angle.... if you do it well you might need a stiffer shaft to accommodate all that extra clubhead speed! 

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When not if.... thanks


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## DaveM (Jan 25, 2012)

Agree with you on the shaft bit. I have always used reg shafts. When I restarted golf this year, my distances where way down. I was starting to think ok must be getting near to senior shaft time (65 next month). But since getting my hand speed back(well nearly back), plus the hip drive though the ball. I have been fitted with "Dynamic gold XP S300" shafts in my new irons. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I could play a stiff shaft. But have never hit so straight or far. So it just goes to show. Dont think I would hit the woods with stiff shafts though.


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## DaveM (Jan 25, 2012)

JustOne said:



			^
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See what I did there? 

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LOL cheeky sod,:rofl:


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## Bikky73 (Jan 25, 2012)

Brookesy said:



			I bet if i tried this id just top the ball lol
		
Click to expand...

I'd probably stay bent and smack the ground


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## bigslice (Jan 25, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Snelly aren't those Leftie's old shoes? 


The more you do it Snelly the more natural it becomes. Anything new will be a conscious thought/feeling for a while.
		
Click to expand...


try powerofgolf.co.uk its all in the hips


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

bigslice said:



			try powerofgolf.co.uk its all in the hips
		
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quote: "Independent research PROVES that increased hip rotation is the ONLY way to increase distance."

The only way to actually increase the hip rotation though is with the legs... eg by pushing UP against the ground (not just 'straightening' the legs, and definitely not by trying to twist the hips open as fast as you can). The pushing motion will recover the left knee like greased lightening and align your hips correctly without twisting your lower back. Can't say that the device pictured there is something I'd pay Â£18 for.


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## bigslice (Jan 25, 2012)

it starts at about 80 squid!!!
ive had two lessons recently and im told im not following through, so first he has got me turn my hips. once i got used to that he has me using my LEGS as they are the POWER CORE. i never really thought about my swing but now im trying to get that perfect pose after hitting the shot. seems to be working so far


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm all for core exercises (well not personally unless you include countless cups of tea and ciggies) so anything that's going to get you on the practice ground is great. If we don't exercise or stretch then we get stiff and that can cause injury. Watching the videos I can't really see how that device will help other than working the obliques, it's a pulling exercise and not really part of the extension power move. Probably an awesome thing to buy for the wife though


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## bigslice (Jan 25, 2012)

lol, most of us dont warm up it normally takes me to the back nine to start ripping it. although i start last year to play sat nite in prep for sunday morn. i will this year try and warm up beforehand as i am a big stiffy.


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## CMAC (Jan 25, 2012)

Right! I've read through this complete thread twice (yes I'm a little slow)...and I'm liking it:thup:

I think its something all good players do subconsciously and they probably call it 'clearing the hips' or 'rotating the hips together with the chest' etc etc

However, it's always been conveyed as hip *rotation *which assumes a *level rotation* in my mind which it clearly isn't according to all the pics and video evidence.

I get a sore lower left back when I practice, I resist the turn to build torque then try and rotate the hips out the way to create that centripedal force. The few pics I have of my swing shocked me as my hips didnt seem to be moving much at all on the downswing leading to pulls, fats, high push fades etc so that made me try harder on hip rotation leading to miss-timing and sore lower left back again- vicious circle 

I really like the idea of a different swing thought rather than *'rotate'*, and to then just start it off then let it go.

I need a visual swingthought to try this out at the range, _pushing up_ isn't doing it for me so need to think of something else.

Also I need to video my swing as that will show me when it works and I'll see and feel the difference hopefully- and so will my back.

Excellent inciteful post JO:thup::thup:...........and its not S&T:smirk:


P.S love to hear comments from Bob and Jason Dransfield on this observation


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			P.S love to hear comments from Bob and Jason Dransfield on this observation
		
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Bob doesn't do it in his swing, he's a rotator and probably not that long ( only seen him hit 2 shots ever and that was a shank and a fat) 

No idea about Jason.. why not PM him?


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## The19thHole (Jan 25, 2012)

An excellent read James, a top post. 

Iâ€™ve always seen it as a Push Down, itâ€™s almost like youâ€™re about 
to sit down and then the swing creates an extra whip like motion.

Will give it a go at the range tomorrow


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

The19thHole said:



			An excellent read James, a top post. 

.........

Will give it a go at the range tomorrow 

Click to expand...

Thanks    Wouldn't mind finding out how you get on.


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## Dave B (Jan 25, 2012)

If you concentrate on twisting/releasing the hips, how do you bump them towards the target on release? 

In addition where does shoulder rotation come into the equation, is there a magic formula i.e. 20% hips 70% shoulders?

Also if you have more flex in your knees which will theoretically give you more lift and leg extension will you get more distance?


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

Dave B said:



			If you concentrate on twisting/releasing the hips, how do you bump them towards the target on release?
		
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Sorry, what do you mean 'bump them towards the target on release'?

Your hips should already be in motion towards the target in your downswing, in some cases players initiate the forward move before the backswing has even finished. Let's say you normally 'fire' your hips in rotation... do you concentrate on that? when would you start doing that? It's no different to saying push your hips UP, except UP happens to be the more powerful of the two movements as it uses the buttock, thigh and calf muscles. Our hips should already be beginning to rotate before we hit the ball, the extension [or pushing up] just accelerates that rotation. I'm not sure if that clarifies anything for you as I'm not sure what you're getting at... I'm not concentrating on twisting or releasing the hips at all, I'm only concentrating on hitting the ball and the push up of the hips is just part of my 'motion'.



Dave B said:



			In addition where does shoulder rotation come into the equation, is there a magic formula i.e. 20% hips 70% shoulders?
		
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20% hips what? Again I'm sorry but I don't understand the question. Are you talking about power, rotation, openess to the target, x-factor? At impact the hips should probably be about 20-40Â° open and the shoulders 0-20Â° but that is an individual measure for each golfer and also dependant on the shot they are going to hit. Again I'm not sure if that's what you're after? 

How much do you use your shoulders when you just try and spin your hips??? Is it measurable 




Dave B said:



			Also if you have more flex in your knees which will theoretically give you more lift and leg extension will you get more distance?
		
Click to expand...

Yes and no. There's an optimum depth of knee bend an individual can get to when they actually become unable to push back up sufficiently quickly. However the faster and higher you extend into impact and beyond (accelerating through point of contact) would translate into faster clubhead speed and therefore more distance. Some players literally push into the air whilst others only push sufficiently hard to push the pelvis up and extend.

I'd suggest (as in the thread) that you watch the Shawn Clement video and take it from there. He uses an analogy of a child on a swing which seems quite straight forward. Sorry Dave if I've misunderstood your questions, perhaps you'd like to clarify them?


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## Dave B (Jan 25, 2012)

James.

l didn't explain myself very well in my last post but I've been experimenting using an old golf shaft pushed through both the front and rear loops of my trousers to try and work out how much hip rotation I get on the back swing and follow through, in addition to the percieved amout of leg extension.

The shaft used is a pulled driver shaft which will amplify and movements. It is also very tight so that there are no anomalies.

To achieve 90 degrees shoulder rotation on the back swing my hips turn by approx 25 degrees leaving 65 degrees shoulder rotation. 

In addition the plane of the shaft which was on a neutral horzontal plane has moved up 5 degrees on my right side at the top of the swing, (I'm right handed). This equates to around a 1.5 inch leg extension as I brace against my back leg.

At impact the plane of the shaft is back at the neutral horizontal position which theoretically is ideal as the club should be in the ideal position for an accurate strike out of the centre of the club, (I've had to use a slow motion swing using my normal shift of balance).

On the follow through the angle of the shaft on the left hip is 10 degrees raised giving close to two inches of leg extension on the front leg.

Try as I might I find I cannot rotate my shoulders to 90 degrees without rotating my hips. As soons as you start to raise your arms everything else falls into place.

My question is what is the typical hip to shoulder rotation ratio, (I can see verybody in their front rooms with a shaft wedged into their trolleys and their wives thinking they are barking mad).

In addition given that I found 1 inch extension on the back swing, no extension on impact and 2 inches extension on the follow through, am I doing something wrong or am I a typical amateur who should be happy with 230- 250 yd drives which generally  land on the fairway.


I'm pretty sure that trying to achieve any further extension would change both the mechanics and tempo of my swing which would not only lose distance but accuracy as well. 

I'll agree that leg extension may be a factor but in the lessons I've had it has never once been mentioned as I've always been told to take away smoothly, accelerate from the top and transfer weight while going into a smooth follow through.

The mechanics take place naturally therefore are we analysing the swing too deeply?


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## DaveM (Jan 26, 2012)

Think you are over analizing all this. your hips should be open about 30-40* at impact or you will have no room for your arms and end up blocking to the right( if right handed).


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## JustOne (Jan 26, 2012)

Dave B said:



			To achieve 90 degrees shoulder rotation on the back swing my hips turn by approx 25 degrees leaving 65 degrees shoulder rotation. 

In addition the plane of the shaft which was on a neutral horzontal plane has moved up 5 degrees on my right side at the top of the swing, (I'm right handed). This equates to around a 1.5 inch leg extension as I brace against my back leg.

At impact the plane of the shaft is back at the neutral horizontal position which theoretically is ideal as the club should be in the ideal position for an accurate strike out of the centre of the club, (I've had to use a slow motion swing using my normal shift of balance).

On the follow through the angle of the shaft on the left hip is 10 degrees raised giving close to two inches of leg extension on the front leg.

Try as I might I find I cannot rotate my shoulders to 90 degrees without rotating my hips. As soons as you start to raise your arms everything else falls into place.

My question is what is the typical hip to shoulder rotation ratio, (I can see verybody in their front rooms with a shaft wedged into their trolleys and their wives thinking they are barking mad).

In addition given that I found 1 inch extension on the back swing, no extension on impact and 2 inches extension on the follow through, am I doing something wrong or am I a typical amateur who should be happy with 230- 250 yd drives which generally land on the fairway.
		
Click to expand...

Dave, the shoulder rotation is smoke and mirrors... it takes ages to explain in writing. The spine HATES to be twisted, a person can turn their shoulders maybe 40Â° (45Â° at most) to their hips without smoke and mirrors. I'm a pretty flexible guy, I can turn my shoulders 40Â° to my hips yet I can rotate my shoulders 140Â° from their starting position....go figure . I'll try and get it all on vid as that's a lot easier than typing pages and pages of complicated 'smoke and mirrors' explaination.

With regards to extension, if you're not seeing your belt buckle raise by (and through) impact then you are not necessarily extending to your capabilities. As shown in the pics I posted you can see 4" gains or more.


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## EIW1219 (Jan 26, 2012)

I think the more you hit balls the more you naturally learn to use your legs/ hips etc.
Its the natural learning we posess. I find that my drives have increased in distance constantly the more I play over the years with better technique learned from just watching pros on tv and honing my game at the range.
Ok some of us may need a little direction along the way. But I think I do this to a reasonable extent anyway without realising it. Its something that just develops into your game as you get used to hitting the you just try what feels better and then start to slowly change your style...(Maybe not to the same degree as a pro though!)


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## The19thHole (Jan 26, 2012)

youâ€™ve written War & Peace here James... take some time off or youâ€™re eyes will go fuzzy ;-S


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## Swinger (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm famous!!

That shot was a hungover, wild slash of my normal efforts but wow! I was pretty much airbourne.  


Interesting thread though James. I generally put the bulk of the extra speed over the average down to 'pushing' or 'clearing' my hips through faster than the average but I say this is a result of working on restricting my hip movement on my backswing (I like to work on keeping a soild base) and my weight transfer (especially through impact). I do have a very stong lower body which helps me generate the same weight transfer as some of the 'big guns' I guess just with a lot less finesse!

I'm getting some stange looks at work trying to figure some of the movements out so I'll have to try it out later on!

Interesting stuff mate.


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## JustOne (Jan 26, 2012)

LOL Swinger.... the difference between 'feel' and 'real' is amazing...

I'll post a couple of pics of your swing later and tell you what is REALLY going on, you'll be shocked I'm sure....  What you do IS very interesting though.

feel and real buddy,..... feel and real!


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## Swinger (Jan 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			LOL Swinger.... the difference between 'feel' and 'real' is amazing...

I'll post a couple of pics of your swing later and tell you what is REALLY going on, you'll be shocked I'm sure....  What you do IS very interesting though.

feel and real buddy,..... feel and real!
		
Click to expand...

Haha!! Sounds like I might be in for a surprise or two then!!

Not sure if I should be looking forward to it but I'll stay positive for now!

Feel and Real!


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## CMAC (Jan 26, 2012)

I see this months GM has a feature on McIlroys hip movement, anyone seen it? is it about this subject?


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## richart (Jan 26, 2012)

Swinger said:



			Not sure if I should be looking forward to it but I'll stay positive for now!
		
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Not sure we are looking forward to it, if it means seeing that hat again.


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## Swinger (Jan 26, 2012)

richart said:



			Not sure we are looking forward to it, if it means seeing that hat again.

Click to expand...

Do you have a preferance to which one I wear next time we tee it up Rich? 

I find the hat in question helps my fellow playing partners as the tassels act like a wind vane and the winds at blackmoor can be tricky to judge.


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## richart (Jan 26, 2012)

Swinger said:



			Do you have a preferance to which one I wear next time we tee it up Rich? 

I find the hat in question helps my fellow playing partners as the tassels act like a wind vane and the winds at blackmoor can be tricky to judge.
		
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Tassels on the golf course are a difficult look to pull off Steve:mmm:. Think they are better suited to lamp shades or exotic dancers.:rofl: Nowt wrong with a good flat cap though.:thup:


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## JustOne (Jan 26, 2012)

Swinger said:



			Haha!! Sounds like I might be in for a surprise or two then!!

Not sure if I should be looking forward to it but I'll stay positive for now!

Feel and Real! 

Click to expand...

LOL... believe it or not you are the key to this whole thread. Lucky you! 

You are the final piece in the puzzle, the cherry on the top if you like. I am the CIA and you are Lee Harvey Oswald (sorry 'bout that!!) :ears:

 As a prolific *proven* distance hitter on the forum I KNEW that you'd be airborne, I just needed to capture it on camera.... When I came to Blackmoor in the rain I didn't bring my camera to capture the clouds  If I posted this thread and you or anyone else said "I don't do that" or "Swinger doesn't do that and he hits it miles" it would undermine the validity of the fact that pushing up (extending) makes you hit the ball further. I'm quite a long hitter and I do it, Snelly is a long hitter and he's said that he does it (with no prompting from me), you do it.. in fact the only one that doesn't get that far extended amongst our longer hitters is Pieman... but can you blame him?  he *does* extend..... he just doesn't get off the ground :rofl:


The things you said above about restricting your hips and your weight transfer are very appropriate.. and _ironically_ so is the fact that you were hungover... it's RAW, it's *exactly* how most of us turn up to a medal on a Saturday morning after a late night and no warm up.... 

I need to make some pics and draw a couple of lines (gotta make sure the FACTS are presented properly) LOL so I'll post later tonight... kids to look after... busy man, wouldn't you believe it


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## User20205 (Jan 26, 2012)

richart said:



			Tassels on the golf course are a difficult look to pull off Steve:mmm:. Think they are better suited to lamp shades or exotic dancers.:rofl: Nowt wrong with a good flat cap though.:thup:
		
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There's not many that could pull off a hat like Steve's....

Talking of flat caps, I have just joined the flat cap brigade. I got a rather fetching one for my recent b/day which will be making an appearance on the course in the near future.


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## Swinger (Jan 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			LOL... believe it or not you are the key to this whole thread. Lucky you! 

You are the final piece in the puzzle, the cherry on the top if you like. I am the CIA and you are Lee Harvey Oswald (sorry 'bout that!!) :ears:

As a prolific *proven* distance hitter on the forum I KNEW that you'd be airborne, I just needed to capture it on camera.... When I came to Blackmoor in the rain I didn't bring my camera to capture the clouds  If I posted this thread and you or anyone else said "I don't do that" or "Swinger doesn't do that and he hits it miles" it would undermine the validity of the fact that pushing up (extending) makes you hit the ball further. I'm quite a long hitter and I do it, Snelly is a long hitter and he's said that he does it (with no prompting from me), you do it.. in fact the only one that doesn't get that far extended amongst our longer hitters is Pieman... but can you blame him?  he *does* extend..... he just doesn't get off the ground :rofl:


The things you said above about restricting your hips and your weight transfer are very appropriate.. and _ironically_ so is the fact that you were hungover... it's RAW, it's *exactly* how most of us turn up to a medal on a Saturday morning after a late night and no warm up.... 

I need to make some pics and draw a couple of lines (gotta make sure the FACTS are presented properly) LOL so I'll post later tonight... kids to look after... busy man, wouldn't you believe it 

Click to expand...

The missing link!! 

I'll look forward to the 'interesting' bits of my swing being broken down. I'll have tissues to hand just in case thats not all thats broken down by the end!

If we could just stress the fact that it was raining at Blackmoor, it was cold, it was windy, I was hungover, I had no warm up, I had lots of layers on and it was the first time I hit that driver! Thats all my excuses out of the way anyway!! Got to get them in early as a good golfer should.


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## GeneralStore (Jan 26, 2012)

Great post and 11 out of 10 for enthusiasm


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## JustOne (Jan 26, 2012)

GeneralStore said:



			Great post and 11 out of 10 for enthusiasm
		
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Ha! Thanks, It just needed saying so I just fired it off as it came out 




Swinger, I changed my mind, a strip down of your swing isn't necessary in the context of the thread.. suffice to say you jump off the ground! 

If you want me to post some pics with your swing in the experts section let me know accordingly :thup:

James.


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## richart (Jan 26, 2012)

Swinger said:



			If we could just stress the fact that it was raining at Blackmoor, it was cold, it was windy, I was hungover, I had no warm up, I had lots of layers on and it was the first time I hit that driver! Thats all my excuses out of the way anyway!! Got to get them in early as a good golfer should.

Click to expand...

Hold on, you were green high on a 330 yard hole into the wind. Just as well you were not fit and warmed up otherwise you would have been half way down the second.


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## HickoryShaft (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok so feedback on trying this at the range tonight.

As said previously I was really interested in the whole thing and particularly understanding the rhythm and turn.

Started off my normal drill and noticed that I naturally do the extension to a small extent with my short irons, however by understanding the whole thing a bit more I began exaggerating it a little and hey presto a few additional yards but more importantly a lot straighter shots from these irons.

Working through the bag and by the 6 iron I was feeling very comfortable and the shots stayed very straight.

I struggled a little more with the 5i and 4i and could not really get the same feeling on the swing.

Onto hybrid and 3 wood and found I was now having a real issue and topping the ball or slicing  - probably my timing was out at this stage.

Onto the driver and teed up fairly high I gave it a real go. When I caught it right I reckon I was adding several yards - maybe 10 ish but probably not 20 yards but straighter again - well mainly. 

I think for a first go this was pretty exciting progress.

Back to my lower irons and got the easier swing going again - this time I managed to carry on through the 5i and 4i.

Same troubles with the hybrid and 3 wood but managed to switch to my normal swing and was hitting them OK ish again. 

Back to Driver and I could repeat the performance from earlier.

So overall very useful. Maybe some extra yards as said but for me more valuable was understanding this part of the swing more and feeling a lot more comfortable each time. It felt effortless in fact.

Game planned for Sunday morning so I have decided to head out for a practice round Saturday just to try it out a bit more in a non competitive round (although Sunday is just a roll up). If I can repeat this on the course I will be a happy bunny.

Thanks for the excellent post again

:clap:


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## Whereditgo (Jan 26, 2012)

My driving has been desperately bad recently, canâ€™t remember even the last mediocre tee shot with the big stick, so I thought Iâ€™d give this a go at the range.

Bit of background first; just nicely back after 6 months out of the game with a shoulder injury, irons were desperately poor, bizarrely I have been hitting the fairway woods pretty well and chipping and putting like a God. Iâ€™m working on a few things with my pro to sort the irons out and thatâ€™s going really well so I wonâ€™t be trying this with the irons for now at least.

So to cut to the chase; warmed up and then pulled the driver out and had a couple of goes concentrating on trying to push up, horrible, almost missed the ball it was that far on the toe. So I altered my set up, moved a bit closer and tried again, a bit better, straight but off the top of the face. Another set up tweak, stood a little more upright at address and swing smooth, not really trying for any extra power or anything, just trying to get the feel for it; not good, again the strike is towards the toe, sets off straight then turns right â€“ not bad for distance though all things considered.

Ok, so I move a little closer again, now feels like the ball is too close, but give it a nice smooth swing and again just concentrate on getting the legs to drive the hips forward and then push up. Now thatâ€™s more like it! Straight out of the sweetspot and a nice little push draw to boot! Hit a few more and I can honestly say that when I did hook everything up the ball striking, shape and I suspect distance, were as good as Iâ€™ve ever managed. 

The last few balls I really â€˜went for itâ€™, the consistency suffered quite a bit which was no surprise, but man when it all came togetherâ€¦â€¦.!

I will definitely be persevering with this for the foreseeable. Cheers James, no money back claim here, consider yourself to have a beer already on my tab next time we meet up.

p.s. - can't verify as to whether or not there was 20 extra yards.....the ball was still in the air as it entered the dark....either it was travelling faster than the speed of light or more likely the lights are pants at the range!


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## The19thHole (Jan 27, 2012)

here is my lame attempt at the new swing from lastnight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oc9MUvngcg&feature=g-upl&context=G2da08acAUAAAAAAAAAA

and the swing a few weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTjmqT5D6TU&feature=g-upl&context=G214616fAUAAAAAAAGAA

thereâ€™s probably not much difference lol


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## JustOne (Jan 27, 2012)

The19thHole said:



			here is my lame attempt at the new swing from lastnight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oc9MUvngcg&feature=g-upl&context=G2da08acAUAAAAAAAAAA

Click to expand...

Your h/cap needs reviewing! 


Did you get the big dog out and give it a rip?


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## The19thHole (Jan 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Your h/cap needs reviewing! 


Did you get the big dog out and give it a rip?
		
Click to expand...

I sure did 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7YnG4BQ_3E&context=C31c831bADOEgsToPDskIRy5mG19f1RTB_8bAxQWK5


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## JustOne (Jan 27, 2012)

The19thHole said:



			I sure did 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7YnG4BQ_3E&context=C31c831bADOEgsToPDskIRy5mG19f1RTB_8bAxQWK5

Click to expand...

That's almost my Bubba push-fade! If you aim 30Â° left and just let that one rip you should be able to do it all day!

In between swings just practice the drill of bouncing as shown by Shawn Clement.... it gets the rythm sorted much quicker, have afew bounces then just cane it!


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## GOLFBALL_WHACKER_GUY (Jan 27, 2012)

I tried the bendy knees swing at the range today, felt good, felt fast, and the balls I made good contact with did appear to go further. 
Consistency wise though I struggled, more with my irons than my driver, and I lost balance on more than one occasion, actually did a full 180 degrees once before deciding that I needed to slow the swing down!

Great stuff though, definately something to work on. Thanks fella!


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## JustOne (Jan 28, 2012)

^
^
^
Ha! You don't have to bend your knees any extra, just use the bend that you have to 'push-up and left' as you are about to impact....

Here's a super-short vid of Hunter Mahan off the tele about 5 mins ago, (another cherry on the top), he normally likes to release the club to his left and generally just has a lot of hip rotation.... (commentary by Faldo...)

..... "more extension through it..........."

[video=youtube_share;uQys_yt5FAA]http://youtu.be/uQys_yt5FAA[/video]


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## tommyangles (Jan 28, 2012)

Very crude post but of lost my mind thinking through my swing. I wrote down the things going through my mind ( including compressing my left leg) before and during a swing and it come to 24 points. Impossible for me and made me so mad. My basic knowledge has realised that everything is based around turn of the body! The centre turns faster the extremities (hips, torso, arms)?of that turn will be faster. It has made feel the sequence of motiond to make the club head travel the fastest, increased my drive from very average to my playing partners say where did that come from. Basic but worked for me. Oh, at least 20, 30 yards to stay on subject.


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## JustOne (Jan 29, 2012)

tommyangles said:



			Very crude post....
		
Click to expand...

I agree... I'm not sure I understood it... you tried improving your extension (as per this thread?) and got an extra 20-30yds?


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## BogeyHole (Jan 29, 2012)

Ok so you've been thinking.

What does that tell me?

That you've not been painting the bedroom like you promised 'er indoors.

However

I get the theory and Tony Jacklin used to do the same, when he was young and supple, but not when he got old and knackered. But if you asked all the pros you mentioned how many of them know they do it, &  how many practice it?

Surely the swing is so fast that to consciously start adding bits and bobs and body movements half way through the downswing is a recipe for disaster?

A lot of pros dip their head when they start the downswing to get that extra oomph into their legs, but I'm darned sure it isn't a deliberate swingthought. And I can't imagine any of them recommending deliberately pushing UP halfway through the downswing either.

BTW, have you recently set yourself up as a Chiropractor and are drumming up a bit of extra business???

Just a question.

Doesn't the old 'Drive your right knee to the target' have the same affect, without sending you off balance?

I'm only asking, coz trying this in the livingroom with a few practice swings has so far seen me fall headlong into the tv, and send swmbo's favourite ornament flying.

Cheers


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## collins (Jan 29, 2012)

Interesting thread and I will definately try it on the range, only problem I see is playing only fortnightly could lead me to being more wayward unless my timing is spot on. I like the theory though and think it's really well put. 
This has to be one of the best threads I've seen on the forum - thanks and well done for spending so much time on it!


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## MadAdey (Jan 29, 2012)

Not really read through every post on this topic but you are spot on Justone. I was taught to fire my hips through impact and with the driver my hips are lifting and almost level with my hands at impact rather than hitting past your body. But if I need to control a drive a bit more on something tight then I keep my hips back a bit and gain more control. But you do need to be athletic with good core strength for this swing, I started playing when I was 14 so I was taught an strong athletic swing rather than someone who is 40 and learning who maybe is not able to taught an athletic swing.


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## BogeyHole (Jan 30, 2012)

BogeyHole said:



			Doesn't the old 'Drive your right knee to the target' have the same affect, without sending you off balance?

Cheers
		
Click to expand...

Was this question too complicated then?

I like the way you discuss this in an adult and sensible way with proper golfers, but as soon as some crap old hacker comes along you ignore him.

If it is coz I is too old and knackered, just say so.


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## Swinger (Jan 30, 2012)

James, been trying to send you a PM but your message box is full. 

Will try again later.


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## JustOne (Jan 30, 2012)

BogeyHole said:



			Was this question too complicated then?

I like the way you discuss this in an adult and sensible way with proper golfers, but as soon as some crap old hacker comes along you ignore him.

If it is coz I is too old and knackered, just say so.








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'Right knee to target' doesn't provide any power or stability, in fact it undermines your balance and can possibly cause the shanks (right hip moves closer to the ball forcing the hands further out). It's a RESULT of firing the hips not the cause. You can't push your hips open any faster by using your knee to do it... you have to push UP with the legs.

here's a couple of the pics from earlier...the right leg is just along for the ride... almost straight..



Casey




Fowler

In both examples the right foot is 'banked' on it's side, the heel isn't off the ground and rotating up onto the toe. The legs have extended.

@Swinger - inbox cleared (a bit)


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## BogeyHole (Jan 30, 2012)

Now you're putting in pictures that you know are so small I haven't got the eyesight to see them...

It iz innit?

It iz coz I is old and knackered.

BTW if I try this and do my back in again, I'll sue, you know....


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## BogeyHole (Jan 30, 2012)

Hang on, a thought.

Isn't it generally accepted that Casey gets most of his power from his arms being tree trucks, from when he worked on a farm or something?

Unlike Rory he's not a lower body golfer.

Or is that my mind going doolally yet again?


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## JustOne (Jan 30, 2012)

BogeyHole said:



			Now you're putting in pictures that you know are so small I haven't got the eyesight to see them...
		
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Click the pictures Clive... they expand..... and welcome back to the forum buddy


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## BogeyHole (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm sure the oomphy leg MUST be a reaction to something, and can't be reliant on a conscious thought process.

Basically I need some kind of drill to even try to get it into my muscle memory.

Any thoughts?


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## JustOne (Jan 30, 2012)

BogeyHole said:



			I'm sure the oomphy leg MUST be a reaction to something, and can't be reliant on a conscious thought process.

Basically I need some kind of drill to even try to get it into my muscle memory.

Any thoughts?
		
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Did the video not help?

[video=youtube;t086PuIVJho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t086PuIVJho[/video]


sent you a PM.....


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## Aztecs27 (Jan 30, 2012)

Good video, but his swing hurts my eyes!  

Might try that tomorrow, might help my rhythm issues. My arms have a tendancy to start the down swing too quickly.


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## Bikky73 (Jan 31, 2012)

JustOne said:



			^
^
^
Ha! You don't have to bend your knees any extra, just use the bend that you have to 'push-up and left' as you are about to impact....

Here's a super-short vid of Hunter Mahan off the tele about 5 mins ago, (another cherry on the top), he normally likes to release the club to his left and generally just has a lot of hip rotation.... (commentary by Faldo...)

..... "more extension through it..........."

[video=youtube_share;uQys_yt5FAA]http://youtu.be/uQys_yt5FAA[/video]
		
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all well and good, but someone turned up the volume to cover the ball position for the strike.....


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## painterboy (Jan 31, 2012)

Very interesting thread, but have just finished the autobiography of Gary Wostenholme ( the most successful Amateur for a long time ) who says one of the most common faults of the club golfer is that he doesn't stay down through the ball!
Now Gary isn't a long hitter but his record speaks for it'self. Wish I could hit it as far as he does.
There's more than one way to skin a cat.


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## JustOne (Jan 31, 2012)

painterboy said:



			Very interesting thread, but have just finished the autobiography of Gary Wostenholme ( the most successful Amateur for a long time ) who says one of the most common faults of the club golfer is that he doesn't stay down through the ball!
Now Gary isn't a long hitter but his record speaks for it'self. Wish I could hit it as far as he does.
There's more than one way to skin a cat.
		
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You're talking about another thing there, it's called 'early extension' and it's when your butt moves towards the ball and you lose your spine angle... see 'HOMER' for reference


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## JustOne (Jan 31, 2012)

Here's another video....



*
***
SPECIAL note: * Luke Donald likes to *re-cock his wrists* very quickly after impact... it's just something he's always done. The comments about timing and squaring the clubface are somewhat unfair and yet somewhat true *in his case* as he does close the clubface *a little after impact* as part of his personal choice of release.... he actually has NO PROBLEM getting it to come into impact perfectly though and the ball is well gone before he starts 'rolling', despite the commentary from Mssr Kostis...
****

*[video=youtube;-m5SJQajBsc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m5SJQajBsc[/video]


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## Whereditgo (Jan 31, 2012)

That swing just looks better every time I see it!

Persevered with this at the weekend and while its impossible to gauge distance at the moment, going from frozen to super soft fairways and bitterly cold air temps, I am getting massive improvements in accuracy off the tee 

I'm not convinced I'm getting the push up with the legs right yet, but am definitely getting the weight moving forward better.


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## Bikky73 (Feb 1, 2012)

The thing is everyone is different.  I don't see why there's need for comment about open/closed club face or bad stance if time after time you can produce 300+ down the fairway (give or take a bit to each side, no-ones perfect)

The only comments should be, he's doing it.  The coaches all say this won't work but he makes it work for him.


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## Foxholer (Feb 1, 2012)

JO,

Can you explain how this 'power from the ground' push to the target fits with S&T, where the right leg tends to 'go along for the ride'. 

BTW. That Power Rythm Timing vid guy is full of S hi T!


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## Tiger (Feb 1, 2012)

I do this already but wasn't consciously aware of it. Am now worried that being consciously aware of it could impact on my recent improvement. If that happens JO you are in deep doo doo!!! :angry: :angry:


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## JustOne (Feb 1, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			JO,

Can you explain how this 'power from the ground' push to the target fits with S&T, where the right leg tends to 'go along for the ride'.
		
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I wouldn't have thought you were remotely interested in S&T? 


Anyhoo.... it's covered in pages 75-77 of the book  

As you can see in this vid the hips push up on the downswing (when the shaft gets approx parallel to the ground) ie before impact. You can see him settle back into the gound during the follow through. 

If you watch his right knee does it look like it's along for the ride?

[video=youtube;UfQ8UPJl9kE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfQ8UPJl9kE[/video]




Foxholer said:



			BTW. That Power Rythm Timing vid guy is full of S hi T!
		
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Ha! That's Shawn Clement one of the most popular instructors on the internet. I'm not overly for or against him, he has some good stuff and some crap stuff. I'm sure he's better liked than me


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## JustOne (Feb 1, 2012)

Tiger said:



			I do this already but wasn't consciously aware of it. Am now worried that being consciously aware of it could impact on my recent improvement. If that happens JO you are in deep doo doo!!! :angry: :angry: 

Click to expand...

Tiger you've got so much going on already it would get lost with the other 6,978 swing thoughts  :thup:


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## Foxholer (Feb 1, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I wouldn't have thought you were remotely interested in S&T? 


Anyhoo.... it's covered in pages 75-77 of the book  

As you can see in this vid the hips push up on the downswing (when the shaft gets approx parallel to the ground) ie before impact. You can see him settle back into the gound during the follow through. 

If you watch his right knee does it look like it's along for the ride?
		
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I like to think I'm open minded, so am prepared to considered reasoned argument on most topics. It's the close-mined religious fervour of S&T-ers that sticks in my craw though.

I'm unconvinced on how much pushing up right leg is doing. Certainly, the heel comes off the ground. Side view would show better.

Also seems that the ball starts right and stays right - or goes even further right - too.


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## sev112 (Feb 1, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			Right! I've read through this complete thread twice (yes I'm a little slow)...and I'm liking it:thup:

I think its something all good players do subconsciously and they probably call it 'clearing the hips' or 'rotating the hips together with the chest' etc etc

However, it's always been conveyed as hip *rotation *which assumes a *level rotation* in my mind which it clearly isn't according to all the pics and video evidence.

I get a sore lower left back when I practice, I resist the turn to build torque then try and rotate the hips out the way to create that centripedal force. The few pics I have of my swing shocked me as my hips didnt seem to be moving much at all on the downswing leading to pulls, fats, high push fades etc so that made me try harder on hip rotation leading to miss-timing and sore lower left back again- vicious circle 

I really like the idea of a different swing thought rather than *'rotate'*, and to then just start it off then let it go.

I need a visual swingthought to try this out at the range, _pushing up_ isn't doing it for me so need to think of something else.

Also I need to video my swing as that will show me when it works and I'll see and feel the difference hopefully- and so will my back.

Excellent inciteful post JO:thup::thup:...........and its not S&T:smirk:


P.S love to hear comments from Bob and Jason Dransfield on this observation
		
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Instead of thinking "rotation", think "step from one foot to the other"; at top of backswing you have a bent left knee, and a straight right knee (you will have turned your hips circa 45 degrees to the right); in the downswing step from your right foot to your left foot straightening the left, and bending the right.   You will find your hips are now 45 degrees to the left.  This is hip rotation, and it comes from stepping only, not "turning" your upper body.  The quicker you step, the quicker the hip rotation, and the faster the ball.

I am not sure the pro golfers are actually proactively pushing up  - i believe that is a reaction/resistance to the massive downward force from the club swinging downwards.

P.S.  Look at Laura Davies and John Daly - they are identical in their impact positions and both up on their toes, and have been for a couple of decades.  Which is why i think that the position is a consequence rather than a deliberate pre-determined "move".


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## guest100718 (Feb 1, 2012)

The moves described at the start of the thread are just by products if a decent dynamic swing, not really positions you should be actually trying to get to. Its like all the WRX ers who bang on about forward shaft lean at impact.  What you can take away is how much on the left side you can be at impact


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

guest100718 said:



			The moves described at the start of the thread are just by products if a decent dynamic swing, not really positions you should be actually trying to get to. Its like all the WRX ers who bang on about forward shaft lean at impact. What you can take away is how much on the left side you can be at impact
		
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How are you getting on trying to stay more centered Paddy? Working out for you?


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			I like to think I'm open minded, so am prepared to considered reasoned argument on most topics. It's the close-mined religious fervour of S&T-ers that sticks in my craw though.

I'm unconvinced on how much pushing up right leg is doing. Certainly, the heel comes off the ground. Side view would show better.

Also seems that the ball starts right and stays right - or goes even further right - too.
		
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I'm VERY open minded.... in essence that's why I got into the whole S&T thing in the first place. I find I have to defend it more than I'd like because generally some numpty 16h/capper comes along and says "oh yeh, stack and tilt - that's crap" and then the blinkers come on for everyone, despite the fact that he can't hit a decent ball or get a decent h/cap with the swing he's already using 

In terms of the ballflight.. why wouldn't it? Do you know the shot he was trying to play???????

[let's TRY and keep off the topic of S&T here... please.... this is about extension... it should happen with all types of swings]


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## Tommo21 (Feb 2, 2012)

I got an extra 20 yards on the range last night.........I picked up the wrong club.


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## Imurg (Feb 2, 2012)

I'm going to get an extra 50 yards this morning...........


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## guest100718 (Feb 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			How are you getting on trying to stay more centered Paddy? Working out for you?
		
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Yes making a huge difference  Still feels a bit odd, like I am going to reverse pivot, but thats just years of swaying.

And you are AKA?


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

guest100718 said:



			Yes making a huge difference  Still feels a bit odd, like I am going to reverse pivot, but thats just years of swaying.

And you are AKA?
		
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I'm not a member on golfmagic (nothing against the place, just haven't joined, did play with Pasty once, nice fella), I just happened to catch the thread that said we're all tossers here on golf monthly and then looked at a couple of posters there.

Thought Bobmacs post was a bit off saying that it's OK here as he's allowed to flog the v-easy (considering how many supporters he has here) but I digress...

If you are making more solid contact by staying centered then that's great news, of course it is, however by staying centered you have given up the extra bit of power you got by swaying your weight.... and that's where most people have an issue with staying over the ball, they don't know how to hit it far enough from a 'standing start'. Extension as described in this thread is one of those things that will help you to power your swing, it isn't a by product of just turning. Did you watch the Donald/Kostis video above?


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## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'm VERY open minded.... in essence that's why I got into the whole S&T thing in the first place. I find I have to defend it more than I'd like because generally some numpty 16h/capper comes along and says "oh yeh, stack and tilt - that's crap" and then the blinkers come on for everyone, despite the fact that he can't hit a decent ball or get a decent h/cap with the swing he's already using 

In terms of the ballflight.. why wouldn't it? Do you know the shot he was trying to play???????

[let's TRY and keep off the topic of S&T here... please.... this is about extension... it should happen with all types of swings]
		
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Reason I asked about S&T was my impression that the 'staying centred' approach reduces the amount of forward momentum, compared with the 'weight transfer' approach, that can be gained 'from the ground' that you are proposing. The 20yds equates to about 7mph extra swing speed (at optimum smash factor). I don't believe that can be gained by movement to the target while staying centred. It surely must be by increased hip turn speed which multiplies (not sure of the factor) into the increased swing speed. It's hip turn speed that feels to be increased for me when I 'drive from the ground'.

And the write-off-ers get in my craw as well - for their similar closed-mindedness!

My comment re ballflight was merely a comment. Like you, I have no idea what shot he was trying to play. However, the flight definitely seemed to be heading right. It could well be that that this was not what was wanted and that the cause was the (too much) leg work! So not a valid example vid to me.


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Reason I asked about S&T was my impression that the 'staying centred' approach reduces the amount of forward momentum, compared with the 'weight transfer' approach, that can be gained 'from the ground' that you are proposing. The 20yds equates to about 7mph extra swing speed (at optimum smash factor). I don't believe that can be gained by movement to the target while staying centred. It surely must be by increased hip turn speed which multiplies (not sure of the factor) into the increased swing speed. It's hip turn speed that feels to be increased for me when I 'drive from the ground'.
		
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I agree that the hip turn speed is increased as it's simply not possible to 'pull' your hips fast enough. However there is also an extension which increases the centripetal force (pulling up) and causes clubhead acceleration and another force called parametric accelleration (pivot moving in the opposite direction to the mass) which also increases, and in itself can add up to 6.7% increase in clubhead speed!!... apparently.

I did read some stuff lately (but didn't bookmark it) pertaining to just how much weighshift contributes to clubhead speed and also rotation (I think that rotation was only 15% of the total swing). I would assume that if you have a swing that doesn't employ all of the potential power moves then you are not going to be a big hitter, if you already use one or more then you _should_ (I use the word loosely) be able to hit it further and if you use them all to the maximum then you _should_ be a long hitter. If parametric acceleration accounts for up to 6.7% then I'd imagine extension would contribute at least the same if not more (there's your 7mph) as it's employing the big muscles.. so that's 13% more speed right there.... add in the correct weightshift, the faster hip rotation, more lag potential (also from the extension) as well as hitting down (less loft) and all the small parts begin to add up.

The premise of S&T is to hit the ball more consistently with distance and accuracy (it's supposed to be the same for all centered swings as there's less movement off the ball).... however, if it's 100% maximum distance you are after then take a run up! I think the 'Happy Gilmore' showed that you can hit the ball the furthest with the least accuracy 

I don't know if that helps or not? 



Good vid here for centered swings...


[video=youtube;9CykPtPcNp4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CykPtPcNp4[/video]


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## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Good vid here for centered swings...
		
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Rock is obviously happy to give up the 20 yards then - as the right leg is very passive (stable) and his belt buckle does not rise until after impact!

I reckon there's a vid out there to support any theory - and plenty of gobble-dee-gook descriptions to allow shysters to sell their approaches to hopeful hackers. 

How's the practice regime - to get to scratch - going btw? I'm afraid my inability to trust my, now healed, broken ankle means I'm heading the other direction!


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Rock is obviously happy to give up the 20 yards then - as the right leg is very passive (stable) and his belt buckle does not rise until after impact!

I reckon there's a vid out there to support any theory - and plenty of gobble-dee-gook descriptions to allow shysters to sell their approaches to hopeful hackers. 

How's the practice regime - to get to scratch - going btw? I'm afraid my inability to trust my, now healed, broken ankle means I'm heading the other direction!
		
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That video was supposed to describe the weight shift that you said didn't exist in a centered swing, and the geometry of a centered swing in general.


You can see his extension in his driver swing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBobUYV-Sws it's not as huge as others but he hits it far enough... although I did outdrive him 3 times in a row when we played, so maybe it needs some work :thup:



I'm meeting the Captain tomorrow evening at my new club. How's your h/cap... still getting a shot per hole?


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Doh! I forgot Jamie Sadlowski - world long drive champion


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