# Catholic Church more scandle



## Bomber69 (Jul 30, 2013)

The Catholic Church has once again hit the headlines with even more allegations of Child Abuse and cover ups.

How can the Catholic people still have Faith in their Church after all the Child Abuse claims that continue to emerge, the very people who they have been brought up to respect are the ones who are letting them down as they abuse young innocent children and the Catholic Church continue to cover up these allegations and the abusers continue to be protected within the church.
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Sins of Our Fathers was screened last night and has evidence of even more abuse within the Church that had been reported at the time but once again thee abuser was not punished but moved on within the organization.
How must the victims feel after being abused and still yet the so called servants of God are being protected by thier very own church.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-Scotland-23477335


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## patricks148 (Jul 30, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			The Catholic Church has once again hit the headlines with even more allegations of Child Abuse and cover ups.

How can the Catholic people still have Faith in their Church after all the Child Abuse claims that continue to emerge, the very people who they have been brought up to respect are the ones who are letting them down as they abuse young innocent children and the Catholic Church continue to cover up these allegations and the abusers continue to be protected within the church.
.
Sins of Our Fathers was screened last night and has evidence of even more abuse within the Church that had been reported at the time but once again thee abuser was not punished but moved on within the organization.
How must the victims feel after being abused and still yet the so called servants of God are being protected by thier very own church.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-Scotland-23477335

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I can't open that link Sam, but was that the program about Fort Augustus Abbey that was on last night?


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## Bomber69 (Jul 30, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			I can't open that link Sam, but was that the program about Fort Augustus Abbey that was on last night?
		
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Yep that's the one Patrick, I must have made a mistake with the link but am a golfer not a keyboard warrior.

Still its shocking what has gone on in the past and who knows it might still be rife .


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## patricks148 (Jul 30, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Yep that's the one Patrick, I must have made a mistake with the link but am a golfer not a keyboard warrior.

Still its shocking what has gone on in the past and who knows it might still be rife .
		
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The current Mrs 148 said something about that last night, but i got sidetracked. I had a couple of mates from Uni that went to a Catholic public school and were taught by Monks and they told a few dodgy stories.... some of them had filthy habbits


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2013)

Why does the Protestant Church not seem to have such problems - ah! that'll be because it's Protestant.


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## Hobbit (Jul 30, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			The current Mrs 148 said something about that last night, but i got sidetracked. I had a couple of mates from Uni that went to a Catholic public school and were taught by Monks and they told a few dodgy stories.... some of them had filthy habbits

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Mmm... there's one or two stories I could tell from my school days in Ireland that would make your skin crawl. 40yrs later and I'm still not comfortable with what I heard one of the priests saying.


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## Foxholer (Jul 30, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why does the Protestant Church not seem to have such problems - ah! that'll be because it's Protestant.
		
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Doesn't seem to be any different to me!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23221461


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## bladeplayer (Jul 30, 2013)

Where there is power there will be abuse , doesnt matter what label that power comes under , police , church , army , teachers etc,  the abuse & the cover ups are the fault of the people above not the whole system or job ..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Doesn't seem to be any different to me!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23221461

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Link to Church of England? - Anglican is not exactly a (very) protestant church.  But yes - the Anglican church does seem to have similar problems to the RC church - but the protestant churches seem less effected.  Maybe just because there are fewer of them but maybe becuase there is minimal if any hierarchy in the Protestant churches and hence fewer having 'power'.  And the minsiter doesn't really have much power at all.


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## Bomber69 (Jul 30, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Link to Church of England? - Anglican is not exactly a (very) protestant church.  But yes - the Anglican church does seem to have similar problems to the RC church - but the protestant churches seem less effected.  Maybe just because there are fewer of them but maybe becuase there is minimal if any hierarchy in the Protestant churches and hence fewer having 'power'.  And the minsiter doesn't really have much power at all.
		
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Or maybe it is less rife in the Church of England, I really feel for the victims and think it is time the Catholic Church done something about these dirty scum ridden Priests who have abused innocent boys.


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## palindromicbob (Jul 31, 2013)

The problem is not religion, it is human. Predators will find a way to access the vulnerable regardless. Catholicism just happens to have many avenues that allow such access and the self protective attitude just helped cover it up.

It is also a religion that claims to represent 1.2 billion people. With over 1/7th over the world population under this umbrella then you certainly would expect to see a larger number of cases than say Methodist.

Abuse happens in all sections of society regardless of religion, finances, colour or creed.


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## Fader (Jul 31, 2013)

palindromicbob said:



*The problem is not religion, it is human.* Predators will find a way to access the vulnerable regardless. Catholicism just happens to have many avenues that allow such access and the self protective attitude just helped cover it up.

It is also a religion that claims to represent 1.2 billion people. With over 1/7th over the world population under this umbrella then you certainly would expect to see a larger number of cases than say Methodist*.

Abuse happens in all sections of society regardless of religion, finances, colour or creed*.
		
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These are the key points for me. Yes this abuse has happened/is happening but the issue isn't the religion its the people doing it. For those that don't like religion its easy to jump on a band wagon and blame Catholicism or the Anglican church or whatever reason for it. But fact remains whatever position of power these people are in it affords them greater chances to fulfil their perverse pleasures at the cost to so many young innocents. 

Its coming to light its been rife throughout the celebrity sector, I don't think there's a single person I grew up watching on TV that either hasn't been investigated or convicted of something since the Saville Scandal. Religion still does great things for many people and doesn't mean those with faith will lose faith because of these people as its the religion they believe in not necessarily the individual preaching it.


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## fallschirmjager (Jul 31, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Where there is power there will be abuse , doesnt matter what label that power comes under , police , church , army , teachers etc,  the abuse & the cover ups are the fault of the people above not the whole system or job ..
		
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Haven't seen much systematic abuse of children in the army and police force to be honest. The Catholic church is most probably the biggest paedophile ring in the world.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2013)

A religion that promotes non married men to lead it is always going to struggle with it's morals.


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## bladeplayer (Jul 31, 2013)

fallschirmjager said:



			Haven't seen much systematic abuse of children in the army and police force to be honest. The Catholic church is most probably the biggest paedophile ring in the world.
		
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The catholic church ? so according to you then i am a paedophile ? or are you under the illusion the catholic church is just clergy ?
if that is what you think then you are very much mistaken .. & i am highly insulted & saddened by your ignorance .. 

I agree totaly that there has been  abuse & the people who covered it up are as much to blame  as the people who committed the act .. 


I think this has been covered over & over & the regulars on here will know my stance on it so no point going over & over it ,

im a catholic , im part of the catholic church and im proud of it , im saddened by what people did and hid behind the cloth to protect themselves, im saddened that the people in charge werent strong enough to fix it ..but for every bad one there are thousands of good ones so dont tar all with the one brush ..




Doon frae Troon said:



			A religion that promotes non married men to lead it is always going to struggle with it's morals.
		
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Im sure there are lots of non married men would have strong feelings on that one Doon ....

Anyhows best i opt out now ..


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## smange (Jul 31, 2013)

fallschirmjager said:



			Haven't seen much systematic abuse of children in the army and police force to be honest. The Catholic church is most probably the biggest paedophile ring in the world.
		
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What a ridiculously stupid comment 

How many children are in the army or police forces?

And I think you will find more than enough cases of abuse in the armed forces and a wider range of abuse, from sexual to racial and many other forms, or are you not classing it as abuse because its on young men and women? Let me guess, you class it as "character building"? 

What has gone on in the Catholic Church over the years is absolutely despicable and charges should be brought against the perpetrators but too many people using this thread as a vehicle for their obvious bigotry.


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## Bomber69 (Jul 31, 2013)

Maybe now the abuse will be uncovered and the guilty brought to justice including the people who covered it up.

Police have confirmed they are investigating allegations of abuse by monks at a former Scottish Catholic boarding school.

It follows a BBC Scotland investigation which uncovered evidence of 30 years of physical and sexual abuse at Fort Augustus Abbey in the Highlands and its East Lothian prep school.

The Benedictine order which ran the schools has apologised to any victims.

Fresh claims of abuse have now emerged since the programme aired on Monday.

The documentary has also prompted calls for more support for victims.

In a statement Police Scotland, said it would make no further comment at this stage as it was now a "live investigation".

It added that all such allegations are investigated and dealt with in a "victim-centred" manner.


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 31, 2013)

smange said:



			What has gone on in the Catholic Church over the years is absolutely despicable and charges should be brought against the perpetrators but too many people using this thread as a vehicle for their obvious bigotry.
		
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I attended a Catholic mass yesterday. Due to the nature of the service there was a diverse bunch of people there, belonging to several different religions.

The priest came up with an analogy, which I thought was very good. He said, "We're all going to the same destination, just on different buses."

OK, as an atheist, I'm not on any bus but I still thought it was a nice way of expressing it.


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Jul 31, 2013)

palindromicbob said:



			The problem is not religion, it is human. Predators will find a way to access the vulnerable regardless. Catholicism just happens to have many avenues that allow such access and the self protective attitude just helped cover it up.

It is also a religion that claims to represent 1.2 billion people. With over 1/7th over the world population under this umbrella then you certainly would expect to see a larger number of cases than say Methodist.

Abuse happens in all sections of society regardless of religion, finances, colour or creed.
		
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Almost sounds as though you condone the predator instincts of some priests and the subsequent cover up and denial of the Catholic Church. I find it incomprehensible the betray of trust and the exploitation of innocence that allows (yes it still happens even although the Catholic Church still tries to hush it up) preists to pray on children.

The subsequent lengths that the Catholic Church has gone to in order to cover it up and thereafter deny it is chilling and disgusting.


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## Fish (Jul 31, 2013)

I don't think any institution should be self-policing itself which for me, the Catholic church thinks or _believes_ it can do by protecting and moving these abusers around and not, as they should, make them available fully for prosecution by the law along with all those that _knew_ it was going on, as they are guilty also.

It almost always comes across as a softly-softly approach has to be taken _because_ its the catholic church, where-as it should be no different to any institution as we are accusing the person not the religion, as such, where's there's an allegation, an investigation follows, an arrest is made and then a conviction, simples.


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## Fader (Jul 31, 2013)

fallschirmjager said:



			Haven't seen much systematic abuse of children in the army and police force to be honest. The Catholic church is most probably the biggest paedophile ring in the world.
		
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Quite possiblly the most ridiculous comment i've ever read!

The Army doesn't permit people to join at least they didn't when I was serving, likewise the police force. But they are people in a position of power that can be abused whether thats for child molestation, racial, sexual or simply bullying. The army had its fair share of issues with bullying, sexual and racial abuse over the years Deepcut was rife with it. Abuse comes in many guises not just that of child abuse.

Also I take it my family are in the same bracket that your labelling the catholic church with or are you simply relating your post to the Clergymen running it. Yes some have been found guilty of this and rightly so should be punsihed as any man or woman should for this type of action, but there are hundreds/thousands even out there doing so much good work for Men, Women and Children alike that are not abusing their positions. 

There will be hundreds of people in civilian life they are being prosecuted for this and added to sex offenders registers but because its the church its higher profile therefore newsworthy. But in no way is this behaviour defendable its totally wrong and requires punishing as do the people that have covered it up.

But by no means tar all catholics with the same brush as we're all individual people who make our own choices in everything we do in life. 




			Re: Catholic Church more scandle 
A religion that promotes non married men to lead it is always going to struggle with it's morals.
		
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Again total garbage! What about if it was non married women! There are plenty more non married men leading good lives with good morals. Likewise there has been manya married man convicted of the same crimes.

Perhaps like blade player its time for me to step away from the thread.


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Jul 31, 2013)

I think some people are taking this far too personally.

For me the issue is the disgusting systematic abuse of innocent children who were placed in these schools, chapels etc by trusting parents and that trust was abused by depraved men of the cloth who carried out sickening abuse like it was they're right.

The subsequent cover up and denial by the Catholic Church and the obstructive ways and measures they put in place to protect the priests is sickening. 

I think some people appear to be taking this as an insult against their own faith which is ludicrous. The Catholic Church does an awful lot of wonderful work throughout the world and that is not being questioned or denied. What gets the general public's back up is the years of lies and deceit and obvious cover ups and hush ups which have been orchestrated from within the organisation.


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## USER1999 (Jul 31, 2013)

Chances are the abusers confess every Sunday, and are then absolved, ready to start again on Monday.

For me, the issue is less with the perpetrators, and more with the cover ups. What these people have done is illegal, and should be treated as such.


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## bladeplayer (Jul 31, 2013)

Almost sounds as though you condone the predator instincts of some priests and the subsequent cover up and denial of the Catholic Church
		
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.

No idea what so ever how   you got that from his post , 




			I find it incomprehensible the betray of trust and the exploitation of innocence that allows (yes it still happens even although the Catholic Church still tries to hush it up) preists to pray on children
		
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.

So do 99% other catholics , they are nit dointg it because they are priests they are doing it because they are sick individuals 




			The subsequent lengths that the Catholic Church has gone to in order to cover it up and thereafter deny it is chilling and disgusting.
		
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agree totaly


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## bladeplayer (Jul 31, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			I think some people are taking this far too personally.



. 

I think some people appear to be taking this as an insult against their own faith which is ludicrous. 



. What gets the general public's back up is the years of lies and deceit and obvious cover ups and hush ups which have been orchestrated from within the organisation.
		
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Depends on your understanding of what or who the catholic  is .. 

the good part of the catholic church agrees with the rest of your sentiments tho ..


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Jul 31, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Depends on your understanding of what or who the catholic  is .. 

the good part of the catholic church agrees with the rest of your sentiments tho ..
		
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So do you just chose to ignore the bits that you failed to comment on? That is exactly the head in the sand attitude that has made this whole sordid affair so sickening. 

For the avoidance of any doubt I'm not accusing you of sticking your head in the sand. Just curious as to why you decided to edit my post to suit your argument. I'd have thought my whole post was clear enough. I'm not having a go at the faith or any religion. My stance would be the same if it was the Church of England, Muslim or whatever.

The morals are disgusting and wrong.


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## chris661 (Jul 31, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			The morals are disgusting and wrong.
		
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Of who? The whole church and with that I include the general parishoners. Or the relative few who perpetrated and covered up the abuse? 

You do seem to have a bit of an agenda here


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2013)

I think it's very easy but far too simplistic to suggest that the difficult issues the Catholic and Anglican churches for two have had to confront is anything systematic about the churches themselves. If you don't like churches and religion - it's easy to make that accusation - but I dont think that it's fair or indeed true.  Come on board the radio and TV presenters BBC of the 60s, 70s and 80s - and 90s?  See MPs from the 50s, 60s and earlier to the present day using their positions of to gain sexual favours favours.  And I haven't started on film stars - God only knows what the matinee idols got up to in the 30s, 40s and 50s - we we do know quite a bit and it wasn't pretty.  

And the common denominator - they are generally male in positions of celebrity, recognition, influence or power.  Nothing really to do with the church of any denomination - as much as 'church-haters' might like it to be.  So just because you may not have any religious belief please let's not express spurious ill-founded opinions that are insulting to those who do.


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## bladeplayer (Jul 31, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			So do you just chose to ignore the bits that you failed to comment on? That is exactly the head in the sand attitude that has made this whole sordid affair so sickening. 

For the avoidance of any doubt I'm not accusing you of sticking your head in the sand. Just curious as to why you decided to edit my post to suit your argument. I'd have thought my whole post was clear enough. I'm not having a go at the faith or any religion. My stance would be the same if it was the Church of England, Muslim or whatever.

The morals are disgusting and wrong.
		
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Definatly not  ignoring anything you said and am in agreement with most of it.. 

i chose the pieces i did because of the misunderstanding that seems to be bounding around of what the catholic church is , 

its not just the clergy , its the faith, the belief & its everyone that is catholic , including me , so maybe i may take it personaly if people knock what i believe in , im part of the catholic church , ive never abused anyone .. 

As ive said numerous times i agree the people who did wrong should be hunted down & made pay , so should the ones who covered it up , they are the reason it got to escalate ..

Members of the catholic church have done very bad thing and that saddens & disgust real catholics as much as it does you ,


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## bladeplayer (Jul 31, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think it's very easy but far too simplistic to suggest that the difficult issues the Catholic and Anglican churches for two have had to confront is anything systematic about the churches themselves. If you don't like churches and religion - it's easy to make that accusation - but I dont think that it's fair or indeed true.  Come on board the radio and TV presenters BBC of the 60s, 70s and 80s - and 90s?  See MPs from the 50s, 60s and earlier to the present day using their positions of to gain sexual favours favours.  And I haven't started on film stars - God only knows what the matinee idols got up to in the 30s, 40s and 50s - we we do know quite a bit and it wasn't pretty.  

And the common denominator - they are generally male in positions of celebrity, recognition, influence or power.  Nothing really to do with the church of any denomination - as much as 'church-haters' might like it to be.  So just because you may not have any religious belief please let's not express spurious ill-founded opinions that are insulting to those who do.
		
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  :clap::clap::clap:   Hence my post below .. 



bladeplayer said:



			Where there is power there will be abuse , doesnt matter what label that power comes under , police , church , army , teachers etc,  the abuse & the cover ups are the fault of the people above not the whole system or job ..
		
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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2013)

fallschirmjager said:



			Haven't seen much systematic abuse of children in the army and police force to be honest. The Catholic church is most probably the biggest paedophile ring in the world.
		
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Both those organisations have their own issues!

Deepcut certainly seemed rather embarrassing. Met Police has admitted it'was 'institutionally racist' and it probably hasn't moved on all that much. Probably same with all the other issues deemed prejudices too.

And Schools aren't immune either. Remember Don Boyd's revelations about abuse at Loretto School - I remember that as I drove past it most days when for a couple of years at the time it became public! It just happens to be Scottish!

I believe the Catholic Church (and the CofE) has a huge task sorting out how it deals with the issue, given it philosophy of 'forgiveness'. There are other religions that have similar issues with getting outside agencies involved too. While documentaries legitimately raise the issue, they all too often take an approach that is biased by the particular journalist/director/producer and simply ignite existing prejudices - s would seem to be the case here!

Mind you, prejudice against 'Weekend Warriors' can be pretty bizarre and anti-social too! If a documentary on that subject was produced, it would probably focus on how most golf clubs couldn't exist without them!


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Jul 31, 2013)

chris661 said:



			Of who? The whole church and with that I include the general parishoners. Or the relative few who perpetrated and covered up the abuse? 

You do seem to have a bit of an agenda here
		
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What is my agenda?

What is my faith if any?

I'd be really interested to know!


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## fallschirmjager (Jul 31, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			The catholic church ? so according to you then i am a paedophile ? or are you under the illusion the catholic church is just clergy ?
		
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I was referring to the clergy not their followers.


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## Bomber69 (Aug 5, 2013)

One of Scotland's most senior Catholics has apologised on behalf of the church for decades of physical and sexual abuse of pupils at a boarding school.

The Bishop of Aberdeen, Hugh Gilbert, addressed parishioners at Fort Augustus in the Highlands.

His statement came after the BBC found evidence of physical and sexual abuse by monks at Fort Augustus Abbey School and its prep school in East Lothian.

The Benedictine order which ran the schools, has already apologised.

Bishop Gilbert's address is the first time a senior Catholic cleric has spoken publicly about abuse at the abbey schools.

He told parishoners: "It is a most bitter, shaming and distressing thing that in this former abbey school a small number of baptised, consecrated and ordained Christian men physically or sexually abused those in their care.

"I know that Abbot Richard Yeo has offered an apology to those who have suffered such abuse and I join him in that.


Abuse survivor Christopher Walls: ''They are only apologising because they have been chased into a corner''
"We are anxious that there be a thorough police investigation into all this. And, that all that can be done should be done for the victims. All of us must surely pray for those who have suffered."

But Christopher Walls, who was physically and sexually abused when he was a pupil at Carlekemp Prep School, in North Berwick, East Lothian, said the apology was "thin" and "had only come because they've got their arms up their back".

"On a daily basis I've had to swallow anger, fear and regret at my lost childhood.

"You don't get absolution when you go to confession just for saying sorry. You've got to have a firm purpose of amendment and that involves taking action. And you've got to make good the damage you did. And there's no hint of that," he said.

BBC Scotland spoke to more than 50 former pupils during its six-month investigation.

Many said they had nothing but good memories of the schools, but the BBC also heard accounts from old boys of serious physical violence and sexual assault, including rape, by monks over a 30-year period.

BBC Scotland Investigates: Sins of Our Fathers, which aired on Monday, contained evidence against seven Fort Augustus monks.

Two headmasters have also been accused of covering-up the abuse.

And the documentary contained allegations that the abbey was used as a "dumping ground" for problem clergy who had confessed to abusing children.

Mark Daly, BBC Scotland's investigations correspondent, who broke the story, said the apology was significant because it was the first time a senior clergyman had addressed the allegations since the programme went out almost a week ago.


Fort Augustus Abbey School was one of the most prestigious Catholic boarding schools in Scotland
He said: "The allegations centred on monks from the Benedictine congregation, which is essentially an autonomous order within the Catholic Church.

"The Catholic Church had told us this was not a matter for them, it was a matter for the Benedictines.

"But the evidence we obtained about offences was that they all happened on Scottish soil, they happened to Scottish Catholics - they're all part of the Catholic flock, as far as the victims are concerned.

"And from the victims' point of view, they have been waiting for something from the senior clergy in the Church, so today will have been something significant."

Since the programme was broadcast, the BBC has been contacted by other former pupils with similar claims of abuse, right up until the boarding school closed in the 1990s. Police Scotland have confirmed they are investigating the allegations.

'Annual audits'
Dom Richard Yeo, the Abbot President of the Benedictines order which ran the school, apologised on the programme and said mistakes were made.

"All I can say is that I'm sorry that it happened, it shouldn't have happened," he said.

The Catholic Church in Scotland has said it would publish details of its annual audits, which deal with abuse allegations dating back to 2006.

Bishop Gilbert said: "The Catholic Church in Scotland has been addressing this issue increasingly effectively in recent years.

"We want to work with all public bodies who care for the young and vulnerable adults.

"We wish to share our experience and share best practice so that lessons can be learned and children can always be fully protected."


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2013)

Here's an extract from an article I came across recently!

<extract>
Irish child abuse inquiry calls for Scottish survivors to come forward
June 20, 2013

An inquiry into historical child abuse at institutions in Northern Ireland is appealing for survivors living in Scotland to come forward.

The Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry was set up earlier this year to investigate abuse at residential institutions over a 73-year period up to 1995.

So far 43 individuals living in Scotland and England have contacted the inquiry regarding their experiences, while 281 potential witnesses still living in Northern Ireland have contacted investigators.

*The inquiry is focussing on 35 institutions, including state-run childrenâ€™s homes, Catholic Church-run facilities, borstals or training schools and homes run by Protestant churches or voluntary organisations.
*
</extract>

So, scarily, it's pretty widespread!


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## Sweep (Aug 5, 2013)

It is all well and good saying that this kind of thing happens in all kind of institutions. Maybe it does and hopefully if it has, this will help any abuse in other institutions come to light. But what is certain here is that this has happened in the catholic church and it needs to be dealt with. This is the subject of the thread and the OP asks a perfectly reasonable question in can catholics have faith in those who run their church when this has been handled so badly. Firstly the perpetrators need to be rooted out and punished. This is the law that we all have to obey and the clergy is no exception. The church should support this. Secondly, the church needs to ensure this is stopped. Now. No excuses. And never happens again. This has to come from within the church and the billion + Catholics around the world have to make it clear they will not accept this disgusting, disgraceful, depraved behaviour by those in whom they place their trust.


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 5, 2013)

And there's more....................


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23573635


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2013)

Sweep said:



			It is all well and good saying that this kind of thing happens in all kind of institutions. Maybe it does and hopefully if it has, this will help any abuse in other institutions come to light. But what is certain here is that this has happened in the catholic church and it needs to be dealt with. This is the subject of the thread and the OP asks a perfectly reasonable question in can catholics have faith in those who run their church when this has been handled so badly. Firstly the perpetrators need to be rooted out and punished. This is the law that we all have to obey and the clergy is no exception. The church should support this. Secondly, the church needs to ensure this is stopped. Now. No excuses. And never happens again. This has to come from within the church and the billion + Catholics around the world have to make it clear they will not accept this disgusting, disgraceful, depraved behaviour by those in whom they place their trust.
		
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Yes. The issue is certainly valid and needs to be dealt with.

But, without taking any Pro or Anti Catholic Church stance myself, I'm suspicious of the motives behind the OP's several (well, at least 2)threads on this topic. To me, St Augustine is a single (catastrophic) case, so 'more scandal' is really 'same scandal, more victims'. 

Personally, I believe it's up to Catholics to sort it out, just as it's up to the CofE to sort it out in their environment. Burying it is certainly not 'sorting it out' though!

Here's another 'closed' group where the issue appears to exist - and there was a Ch4 program about it. http://www.timesofisrael.com/london-haredim-slam-tv-expose-on-sexual-abuse-in-community/

And does anyone believe this is only a recent phenomenon?


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## Sweep (Aug 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Yes. The issue is certainly valid and needs to be dealt with.

But, without taking any Pro or Anti Catholic Church stance myself, I'm suspicious of the motives behind the OP's several (well, at least 2)threads on this topic. To me, St Augustine is a single (catastrophic) case, so 'more scandal' is really 'same scandal, more victims'. 

Personally, I believe it's up to Catholics to sort it out, just as it's up to the CofE to sort it out in their environment. Burying it is certainly not 'sorting it out' though!

Here's another 'closed' group where the issue appears to exist - and there was a Ch4 program about it. http://www.timesofisrael.com/london-haredim-slam-tv-expose-on-sexual-abuse-in-community/

And does anyone believe this is only a recent phenomenon?
		
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The clergy of any church has to obey the law just like the rest of us. No-one is or should be above the law. The police and courts should deal with the perpetrators. This should be the case wherever the law is broken. The catholic church has not done itself any favours by failing to deal with this effectively and I don't think many would be content to leave it to them to deal with any more.


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## DappaDonDave (Aug 6, 2013)

I've never been abused, and I've never gone to church. Must be safer not to go to church and possibly be non religious?

Someone may correct me but when was there a war based on non-religious grounds?


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2013)

Sweep said:



			The clergy of any church has to obey the law just like the rest of us. No-one is or should be above the law. The police and courts should deal with the perpetrators. This should be the case wherever the law is broken. The catholic church has not done itself any favours by failing to deal with this effectively and I don't think many would be content to leave it to them to deal with any more.
		
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While I agree about clergy having to obey the law, I can understand (though don't necessarily accept) the reluctance of some communities to hand over perps to civil authorities when they believe they have capabilities to handle it in their own community.
And there's enough evidence that civil authorities don't handle things particularly sympathetically at times!


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## chris661 (Aug 6, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			I've never been abused, and I've never gone to church. Must be safer not to go to church and possibly be non religious?
		
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What an absolutely idiotic statement.


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## Sweep (Aug 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree about clergy having to obey the law, I can understand (though don't necessarily accept) the reluctance of some communities to hand over perps to civil authorities when they believe they have capabilities to handle it in their own community.
		
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Which is exactly why the catholic church is in this terrible situation now and why ensuring it never happens again has to come from the grass roots, the church goers, the catholic community. They must make it clear that this behaviour is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.


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## Bomber69 (Aug 6, 2013)

chris661 said:



			What an absolutely idiotic statement.
		
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Have to agree with you on that one Chris:thup:

Mind you if he had of said Chapel then it would have merit 

Anyway it looks like the Law are getting behind the victims now and a full investigation is getting under way and every day there are more victims are coming forward. You gotta ask what has really gone on is these places and how many men of the cloth will be rooted out through these investigations. I hope the put them away till the day they die for what they have done.


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## Sweep (Aug 6, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			I've never been abused, and I've never gone to church. Must be safer not to go to church and possibly be non religious?

Someone may correct me but when was there a war based on non-religious grounds?
		
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Quite the most ridiculous comment I have ever read on here.


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 6, 2013)

chris661 said:



			What an absolutely idiotic statement.
		
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Is it as idiotic as accusing someone of having an agenda on the thread without any evidence to back it up?


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 6, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree about clergy having to obey the law,* I can understand (though don't necessarily accept) the reluctance of some communities to hand over perps to civil authorities when they believe they have capabilities to handle it in their own community.*
And there's enough evidence that civil authorities don't handle things particularly sympathetically at times!
		
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I can't. The Catholic Church and hierarchy have swept this under the carpet for years and tried to hush it up. They have hindered potential Police investigations by moving priests to other areas and never once taken any steps to safeguard potential future victims once these predators have been moved.

The whole sordid affair is chilling and disgusting. 

Robbing a child of their innocence to satisfy a depraved sick mind is wrong. Its sick. Such a betrayal of trust yet you believe that the Catholic Church has the capabilities to handle it????

The years of lies, denial and deceit tell a completely different story!


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## Fish (Aug 6, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			I can't. The Catholic Church and hierarchy have swept this under the carpet for years and tried to hush it up. They have hindered potential Police investigations by moving priests to other areas and never once taken any steps to safeguard potential future victims once these predators have been moved.

The whole sordid affair is chilling and disgusting. 

Robbing a child of their innocence to satisfy a depraved sick mind is wrong. Its sick. Such a betrayal of trust *yet you believe that the Catholic Church has the capabilities to handle it?*???

The years of lies, denial and deceit tell a completely different story!
		
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For once I agree with your sentiments, however, what I don't understand is this willingness of people to allow or have the catholic church, or any church/religious factor, to self govern, they have no legal right to think they can and should be afforded no right to think they can.

The law is the law, nobody or any institution is or should be above it, not even those that make it so.


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## Bomber69 (Aug 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			For once I agree with your sentiments, however, what I don't understand is this willingness of people to allow or have the catholic church, or any church/religious factor, to self govern, they have no legal right to think they can and should be afforded no right to think they can.

The law is the law, nobody or any institution is or should be above it, not even those that make it so.
		
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Robin your 100% correct and it's about time these people were handed over along with all the other allegations that have been made within the Church. The time is right to come clean and get it all out rather than let it drag on for years as the victims continue to come forward. The church of no shame.....................


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## thehunter (Aug 6, 2013)

Personally I find the whole thing disturbing and rather sick, we need to look at the top of the tree as I fear this whole thing stems from the top and that's is why the last Pope retired. I find it hard to understand why people continue to protect these sick individuals and strange that the catholic people have not stood against the church and asked for answers, sorry seems to be the easy word.

You got to question what what is going on and why it has been allowed to happen, I really feel for the victims and what they have had to endure all their lives.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:





Foxholer said:



			While I agree about clergy having to obey the law, *I can understand (though don't necessarily accept) the reluctance of some communities to hand over perps to civil authorities when they believe they have capabilities to handle it in their own community.*
And there's enough evidence that civil authorities don't handle things particularly sympathetically at times!
		
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.....
*yet you believe that the Catholic Church has the capabilities to handle it????*
....
		
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Since when did I state I believed this?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2013)

Friendly, a bit over-friendly, inappropriate

The problems for such as a church will arise when behaviour might appear 'a bit over-friendly'.  In this area we are into subjective interpretation of incidents that when looked at out of context can be worrying- in context they can be OK.  

However if you raise such incidents with the police or other authorities we all know that the most negative 'take' on the incident will be the starting point - in many ways understandably to protect any 'victim', but of course this starting point is disasterous for the 'accused'.  And do we not know this from false accusations of rape, false accusations by pupils of assault etc.  It seems to me that if an incident is truly in the grey area then the appropriate observations and warnings on how behaviour could be interpreted should be given.  Difficult.  Easy if you don't like the church.

Where incident clearly breaks the law then absolutely report.


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## DappaDonDave (Aug 7, 2013)

Surely anyone who believes in a greater being needs to be treated with some caution.

If I started talking to an imaginary spider, telling people about the spider as it I'd known it all my life and knew all of its thoughts on everything, you'd treat me like a bit of a fruit loop?

In all honesty, what is the difference?
Anyone who has 'seen Christ' or had a near death religious experience is only doing so because there brain subconsciously believes that is what is suppose to happen. I'd bet my hat on it someone raised without religious input who almost died would not say 'I saw a white man (from the Middle East?) with long her, he said he was gods son and it wasn't my time'

As you can tell, I'm a great disliker of religion. Atheist and Darwinist through and through.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			Surely anyone who believes in a greater being needs to be treated with some caution
		
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What sort of caution?  That the individual is likely to be a complete fruitcake? Have you ever spoken with anyone working a 12-step addiction recovery program?

It is so easy to dismiss religion on the basis that it is 'clearly' illogical to believe in a greater being/higher power/god.  It is less easy to do so when that greater being seems to work for you.


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## DappaDonDave (Aug 7, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What sort of caution?  That the individual is likely to be a complete fruitcake? Have you ever spoken with anyone working a 12-step addiction recovery program?

It is so easy to dismiss religion on the basis that it is 'clearly' illogical to believe in a greater being/higher power/god.  It is less easy to do so when that greater being seems to work for you.
		
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I appreciate that something like religion can be used to focus the mind, but there are alternatives.

Giving religion that sort of power in a very sensitive individuals life is not a good idea.


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## Sweep (Aug 8, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			Surely anyone who believes in a greater being needs to be treated with some caution.

If I started talking to an imaginary spider, telling people about the spider as it I'd known it all my life and knew all of its thoughts on everything, you'd treat me like a bit of a fruit loop?

In all honesty, what is the difference?
Anyone who has 'seen Christ' or had a near death religious experience is only doing so because there brain subconsciously believes that is what is suppose to happen. I'd bet my hat on it someone raised without religious input who almost died would not say 'I saw a white man (from the Middle East?) with long her, he said he was gods son and it wasn't my time'

As you can tell, I'm a great disliker of religion. Atheist and Darwinist through and through.
		
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A wind up, surely?
Surely anyone who writes such nonsense should be treated with a lot of caution.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2013)

Sweep said:



			A wind up, surely?
Surely anyone who writes such nonsense should be treated with a lot of caution.
		
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^^^:thup:


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 8, 2013)

Sweep said:



			A wind up, surely?
Surely anyone who writes such nonsense should be treated with a lot of caution.
		
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Lets flip the coin then. Would it be so easy to ridicule and dismiss if I were to question Moses and the parting of the Red sea to safeguard the escape of the Israelites as coming from someone who writes such nonsense?

Everyone is entitled to beliefs and opinions.


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## Sweep (Aug 8, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			Lets flip the coin then. Would it be so easy to ridicule and dismiss if I were to question Moses and the parting of the Red sea to safeguard the escape of the Israelites as coming from someone who writes such nonsense?

Everyone is entitled to beliefs and opinions.
		
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Absolutely. Do you treat billions of people across the planet with caution because of their belief, in this case in a higher being? What are we saying here? That child abuse happened in the catholic church because it is a religious organisation, full of a billion + people who should be treated with caution?


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Absolutely. Do you treat billions of people across the planet with caution because of their belief, in this case in a higher being? What are we saying here? That child abuse happened in the catholic church because it is a religious organisation, full of a billion + people who should be treated with caution?
		
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Er. Apparently, not just the Catholic Church! But all of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. In fact, every religion that has the concept of a Deity.


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## Fader (Aug 8, 2013)

Lets flip the coin then. Would it be so easy to ridicule and dismiss if I were to question Moses and the parting of the Red sea to safeguard the escape of the Israelites as coming from someone who writes such nonsense?
		
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Foxholer said:



			Er. Apparently, not just the Catholic Church! But all of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. In fact, every religion that has the concept of a Deity.
		
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I'm with Foxholer on this... 

Harris Tweed does this mean then for arguments sake the world is an accurate 50/50 split on those with and without faith (though i'd say the stats favour more towards those with a faith). That on these figures as an example half the world needs to be treated with caution as they believe in something they can't see but have faith in its deity. Hmmm... Really...

Quick get the men in white coats and cart me off for having a religious belief... If i'm not back soon i'll be locked away with the rest for having the audacity to believe...


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 8, 2013)

How many have the concept of abusing children and then doing all they can to cover it up and protect the perpetrators?


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## Fader (Aug 8, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			How many have the concept of abusing children and then doing all they can to cover it up and protect the perpetrators?
		
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No-one has said thats right though have they! Common misconception that all catholics, or religious fold are guilty because individuals commit the crimes and others cover it up for them! You will find all are against both these actions and should be brought to justice but you can't say all those with the faith are guilty by association. Ok you didn't use those words but to say in around about way point the finger saying its those with religious belfied in general being of that persuasion is poor.

Whats your favourite phrase on here "the mind is a wonderful thing" it can also be a very poor weapon to use without full facts or openess to accept others beliefs or opinions.


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 8, 2013)

Point out anywhere in this thread where I have stated that the world is split 50/50 in term of believers and non believers?

We are talking about wide spread, widely reported abuse within the Catholic Church, no other religion. That is what this thread is about.

Point out anywhere in my posts where I have said anything that has tarred all in this faith? Point out where I have belittled any religion including the Catholic Faith?

I have like others pointed out the abuse suffered at the hands of Catholic Priests, I would be equally vocal on child abuse within any other organisation should it be a topic in the news as its disgusting and sick.


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2013)

Fader.

I think your question should be directed at DDDave, not HT!



My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			How many have the concept of abusing children and then doing all they can to cover it up and protect the perpetrators?
		
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I'm afraid, I would think quite a few!

All those where there is an implicit trust of those in authority.


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## Fader (Aug 8, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			Point out anywhere in this thread where I have stated that the world is split 50/50 in term of believers and non believers?

We are talking about wide spread, widely reported abuse within the Catholic Church, no other religion. That is what this thread is about.

Point out anywhere in my posts where I have said anything that has tarred all in this faith? Point out where I have belittled any religion including the Catholic Faith?

I have like others pointed out the abuse suffered at the hands of Catholic Priests, I would be equally vocal on child abuse within any other organisation should it be a topic in the news as its disgusting and sick.
		
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My bad clicked the wrong comment to reply with quote to!... Accept my humble apologies. :thup:


Still stands to DDDave though


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			We are talking about wide spread, widely reported abuse within the Catholic Church, no other religion. That is what this thread is about.

Point out anywhere in my posts where I have said anything that has tarred all in this faith? Point out where I have belittled any religion including the Catholic Faith?

I have like others pointed out the abuse suffered at the hands of Catholic Priests, I would be equally vocal on child abuse within any other organisation should it be a topic in the news as its disgusting and sick.
		
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Well, it certainly happens in other areas of Christianity (CofE for example) and other Religions!

Are you not also concerned about these? Or is the Catholic Church just a target - for this particular issue and in general?


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Well, it certainly happens in other areas of Christianity (CofE for example) and other Religions!

Are you not also concerned about these? Or is the Catholic Church just a target - for this particular issue and in general?
		
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Sorry Mr Hole I don't understand what your getting at here? Are you being underhand and calling me a bigot? 

Excuse me for being new to the forum and the way it works however my understanding from the title is that this thread was about more scandal (thought I'd spell it correctly) within the Catholic Church. Therefore I have kept on topic. If your insisting there is more to my posts be very careful what you type on an internet forum.


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## Fish (Aug 8, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			Sorry Mr Hole I don't understand what your getting at here? Are you being underhand and calling me a bigot? 

Excuse me for being new to the forum and the way it works however my understanding from the title is that this thread was about more scandal (thought I'd spell it correctly) within the Catholic Church. Therefore I have kept on topic. If your insisting there is more to my posts be very careful what you type on an internet forum.
		
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For someone "being new", you have thrown your fair share of insults out belittling  genuine peoples questions and then in other topics referring back to them as idiots so less of the threats matey..


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 8, 2013)

Yes indeed.


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## Bomber69 (Aug 8, 2013)

It's strange how this thread is going of topic, the initial thread was posted regarding how much more information and allegations have come to light against the Catholic Church, mostly from Catholic people who were abused years ago in their childhood. Now I am sure that nobody would have wished that upon themselves or indeed off their children especially in a Church or any house of God. My point is really to find out how and if the Catholic Church can be trusted and should they now hand over all the  hidden documents/allegations that have went on in the past/present. I see this as a chance for the Church and it's leaders to come clean and bring these monsters to justice along with the leaders who covered up the allegations.

Do people think the Catholic Church are above the law and is it okay to let what has happened in the past go unpunished ??????


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2013)

My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:



			Sorry Mr Hole ....

... be very careful what you type on an internet forum.
		
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Indeed!

While the thread title might be restrictive, possibly deliberately so, it's important to note that such activity is not restricted to the Catholic Church. Doesn't seem to me to actually be going off-topic.

No accusation of bigotry from me btw. No point! Unlike 'opinions' that may be altered by information and debate, bigotry - and faith - is unshakeable!

Are you and Bomber a team? Seem to be a few 'paired' posts - on other topics too


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## Fish (Aug 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Are you and Bomber a team? Seem to be a few 'paired' posts - on other topics too
		
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You only just noticed that


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## My_HarrisTweed_Cap (Aug 8, 2013)

Only threads I see are here in this and the thread about Rangers where there is a cross over of interests. 

I see your also active in both Mr Hole are you and Bomber also a team?


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## Bomber69 (Aug 8, 2013)

Can you pair please keep on topic and for the record I have no connection to either off you.


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Can you pair please keep on topic and for the record I have no connection to either off you.
		
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Only if you promise to either learn, or teach your predictive text, the difference between 'of' and 'off'! :whoo:


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 8, 2013)

Gentlemen

Can we please remain strictly on topic and also refrain from insulting other members

Everyone is entitled to their views but please keep it civil

this thread is being watched by the Moderator team closely and will be pulled if it gets out of hand

Thank you


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			It's strange how this thread is going of topic, the initial thread was posted regarding how much more information and allegations have come to light against the Catholic Church, mostly from Catholic people who were abused years ago in their childhood. Now I am sure that nobody would have wished that upon themselves or indeed off their children especially in a Church or any house of God. My point is really to find out how and if the Catholic Church can be trusted and should they now hand over all the  hidden documents/allegations that have went on in the past/present. I see this as a chance for the Church and it's leaders to come clean and bring these monsters to justice along with the leaders who covered up the allegations.

Do people think the Catholic Church are above the law and is it okay to let what has happened in the past go unpunished ??????
		
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Maybe with the Catholic Church and abuse (and iondeed for all criminal acts) there is an inherant difficulty.  Christians of any denomionation believe in forgiveness and redemption - the justice system and media tend in general not to appear to share a similar stance.  Is it surprising therefore that, wherever possible, a church might try to give the benefit of the doubt, believe in reassurances given of no repetition of possibly inappropriate behaviour etc. rather than hand someone over to the authorities - knowing that regardless of the clarity, certainty or seriousness around any accusation of abuse - the accused will be damned and possibly detroyed. 

I'm not saying that this thinking is correct and valid - but surely it is propably inevitable and quite understandable, and not necessarily completely a cover up for simple church self-interest, but expressing a concern for the individual accused.


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## USER1999 (Aug 9, 2013)

Surely that would be ok for selling off church candlesticks, but child abuse is a bit more serious?


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## Bomber69 (Aug 9, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Surely that would be ok for selling off church candlesticks, but child abuse is a bit more serious?
		
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Murp, your spot on.

I could not believe what I was reading in Hogans post it was mind blowing and came across that what has happened should be left alone and let the Church deal with it as the offenders will be bannished. What about the innocent children should they not see these people brought to justice within the law.

What about O'Brien has he been bannished, not as far as I know he is retired and living in a cottage  which will be provided & paid for by the Church and you can bet he is still get paid from the Church.


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## Fish (Aug 9, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is it surprising therefore that, wherever possible, a church might try to give the benefit of the doubt, believe in reassurances given of no repetition of possibly inappropriate behaviour etc. rather than hand someone over to the authorities
		
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It is not their place nor do they have any legal right to carry out any such process!  You cannot have a law within the law to suit, its quite simple really, an accusation is made, evidence is gathered, if sufficient evidence is confirmed then an arrest or investigation is started and if ANYONE obstructs, hides or sends an individual away so they can avoid facing those allegations, then THEY should all be charged also!

It really isn't difficult IMO, the bottom line is we can't walk on egg shells just because their are allegations against a priest, vicar, clergy or whoever, nobody is exempt of the law, especially and more so with such heinous crimes against children, the Yewtree investigations are proving that celebrities of any standing and recognition are not untouchable, why should it be any different because it involves the church?


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## Foxholer (Aug 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			What about O'Brien has he been bannished, not as far as I know he is retired and living in a cottage  which will be provided & paid for by the Church and you can bet he is still get paid from the Church.
		
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If this is about Cardinal Keith O'Brien, then I don't believe it's about Child Abuse. In fact, that issue might not even be about anything illegal - though quite possibly an abuse of power. If it was about illegal activity and he is indeed 'available for prosecution', surely it's more a criticism of Police and their failure to act.


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## DappaDonDave (Aug 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Er. Apparently, not just the Catholic Church! But all of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. In fact, every religion that has the concept of a Deity.
		
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Agreed.

Probably a misquote but serves my point.


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