# 'Clock face method' Pitching question



## One Planer (Jan 2, 2014)

I have a question for those that use this method.

I've always played these shots purely on feel and what I felt would be the correct length of swing to make. Now, I want to make things a little more solid and adopt this approach. 

I understand the method itself of swinging to a position on a clockface in the back swing, say 7 o'Clock, 9 o'Clock and 11 o'Clock  then making a regular swing with the chosen club.

My main question when using this method is:

Do you change anything from you normal, full swing, pitch set-up at address? Weight more on the front foot perhaps?

Is it literally a case of addressing the ball as usual and making the swings mentioned previously?

Any pointers welcome.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 2, 2014)

Ive been using this method over the last couple of months,and I can safely
say it has helped with distance control.
Now you have asked the question,i do have my weight slightly more on the left
side when chipping as apposed to pitching.
Im now using the clockface drill on all my little pitches from 50 yards to 105.
I even use the 9 oclock for my wedge 115 and my 8 iron 135,of course
if I need more I can go higher.
The one thing you have to be carefull is on the lie you have.
Phil Michelson has a great you-tube on levelling out your weight,depending on the lie.


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## SGC001 (Jan 2, 2014)

If you're going to try it, my tip would be to try it without aiming at a target, so go to your practice green and hit in the opposite direction. We get attracted to targets so if you are hitting towards a flag you may compromise results. The idea is to find out how far the ball goes with a certain swing length and club and then when you are that distance play that shot to avoid the need for compensation.
Hit 10 decent shots (discard any fats / thins...) you don't want to allow for bad shots, you want to know how far that swing will travel. Practice to remove those errant shots. Rinse and repeat with different clubs, different swing lengths, different grip positions...If you're thinking of going the Pelz way he talks of synchronsied turn not involving coil to aid distance control, this takes a bit of practice before this comes (it did for me).

Their's basically 2 ways of controlling distance swing length and speed of your pivot.

This way is pretty simple, their's nothing stopping you modifying anything to achieve a different ball flight if you wished, but it's based around simplicity, consistency and repeat-ability.

It doesn't need to be dead on 7:30, 9 or 10:30 it's your feeling of it (most people go back further than they think)

You may find yourself struggling with certain swing lengths (people often the shorter ones harder, so don't select them unless you have to - change club instead)

You can combine it with gripping down to cover even more distances / trajectories.


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## One Planer (Jan 2, 2014)

SGC001 said:



			If you're going to try it, my tip would be to try it without aiming at a target, so go to your practice green and hit in the opposite direction. We get attracted to targets so if you are hitting towards a flag you may compromise results. The idea is to find out how far the ball goes with a certain swing length and club and then when you are that distance play that shot to avoid the need for compensation.
Hit 10 decent shots (discard any fats / thins...) you don't want to allow for bad shots, you want to know how far that swing will travel. Practice to remove those errant shots. Rinse and repeat with different clubs, different swing lengths, different grip positions...If you're thinking of going the Pelz way he talks of synchronsied turn not involving coil to aid distance control, this takes a bit of practice before this comes (it did for me).

Their's basically 2 ways of controlling distance swing length and speed of your pivot.

This way is pretty simple, their's nothing stopping you modifying anything to achieve a different ball flight if you wished, but it's based around simplicity, consistency and repeat-ability.

It doesn't need to be dead on 7:30, 9 or 10:30 it's your feeling of it (most people go back further than they think)

You may find yourself struggling with certain swing lengths (people often the shorter ones harder, so don't select them unless you have to - change club instead)

You can combine it with gripping down to cover even more distances / trajectories.
		
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Useful :thup:

How about address? Any changes from a full swing?


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## Jimbooo (Jan 2, 2014)

If you're going to go down this route, I suggest picking up a copy of Dave Pelz Short Game Bible... pretty much the whole book devoted to the clock face method and his 'finesse' swing. :thup:


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## Robobum (Jan 2, 2014)

Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at  9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts


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## One Planer (Jan 2, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at  9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts 

Click to expand...

A very good point, very well made :thup:


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## pokerjoke (Jan 2, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at  9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts 

Click to expand...

Yes it is quite difficult.
The first thing is you've got to be able to tell the time.:thup:
The clockface is basically feel,you get to feel where 7.30-8 and 9 is.
Then its repeat,repeat until its installed mentally.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 2, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Yes it is quite difficult.
The first thing is you've got to be able to tell the time.:thup:
The clockface is basically feel,you get to feel where 7.30-8 and 9 is.
Then its repeat,repeat until its installed mentally.
		
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Of course your 2 and im 6 so I bow to your superiority


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## SGC001 (Jan 2, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Useful :thup:

How about address? Any changes from a full swing?
		
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It's more of a preference thing, the main thing is to be consistent with what you do, I probably wouldn't make huge changes.

Grip: May consider a more neutral grip - adjust for ball flight
Clubface aim: No real change
Body Alignment: May open feet a little if I do keeping shoulders square may stick with normal (either parallel and left (pelz flow lines) or hogans view of normal) - adjust for ball flight
Stance and posture: Probably a little narrower (smaller swing and allows weight to be put on left side a little easier) with weight slightly more left(66-35 to 55-45 depending on swing length) and more of a tendency to leave the weight there than shift it in the backswing. May consider opening left foot out a bit more. - adjust for well you get it now
Ball Position: Centre so a little further back - I'd be willing to adjust for ball flight Pelz may not.
Swing: Around set up (as it's a short club and you may be standing a little taller it may lead to this been seen as more upright, but just around posture), backswing length to control distance, syncronised turn with no real coil, holding follow through which would be a fairly full finish. Wouldn't force wrist cock (don't anyway) let it happen naturally


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## Robobum (Jan 2, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			The first thing is you've got to be able to tell the time.:thup:
.
		
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Damn it!!!! 



pokerjoke said:



			The clockface is basically feel,you get to feel where 7.30-8 and 9 is.
.
		
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So no different to a "normal" pitching method. Emperor's new clothes?


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2014)

SGC001 said:



			If you're going to try it, my tip would be to try it without aiming at a target, so go to your practice green and hit in the opposite direction. We get attracted to targets so if you are hitting towards a flag you may compromise results. The idea is to find out how far the ball goes with a certain swing length and club and then when you are that distance play that shot to avoid the need for compensation.
Hit 10 decent shots (discard any fats / thins...) you don't want to allow for bad shots, you want to know how far that swing will travel. Practice to remove those errant shots. Rinse and repeat with different clubs, different swing lengths, different grip positions...If you're thinking of going the Pelz way he talks of synchronsied turn not involving coil to aid distance control, this takes a bit of practice before this comes (it did for me).

Their's basically 2 ways of controlling distance swing length and speed of your pivot.

This way is pretty simple, their's nothing stopping you modifying anything to achieve a different ball flight if you wished, but it's based around simplicity, consistency and repeat-ability.

It doesn't need to be dead on 7:30, 9 or 10:30 it's your feeling of it (most people go back further than they think)

You may find yourself struggling with certain swing lengths (people often the shorter ones harder, so don't select them unless you have to - change club instead)

You can combine it with gripping down to cover even more distances / trajectories.
		
Click to expand...

I'm just learning a similar method called the Linear  Method but it involved the strike of the shot and set up too. Thoroughly agree with the above though, in particular the bit about not hitting to a target to record distances. We don't do a clock but use the P2 P3 P4 of the back and through swing. If every swing is to a pre defined pattern then you should hit specific distances with the clubs you choose. I now can hit a full wedge 100 yards by using the clubs bounce, it goes higher, lands softer and is consistant but I can still play it normal swing 125 yards


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## SGC001 (Jan 2, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

*Don't really care it's feel as you say*

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at  9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

*feel*

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts 

Click to expand...

Feel exactly, this is just a way of developing it. edit: seen a couple of others since, Pelz says he didn't invent it just recognised it and named it.
edit II: I'm reminded of a quote along the lines of let mechanics produce and feel reproduce.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 2, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Damn it!!!! 



So no different to a "normal" pitching method. Emperor's new clothes?
		
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I think it is different in the fact that you get more consistent results from knowing
exactly how far back you go for each shot.
Im not disagreeing with you,but I have seen good improvements in distance control.
Each to there own of course.


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## SGC001 (Jan 2, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I'm just learning a similar method called the Linear  Method but it involved the strike of the shot and set up too. Thoroughly agree with the above though, in particular the bit about not hitting to a target to record distances. We don't do a clock but use the P2 P3 P4 of the back and through swing. If every swing is to a pre defined pattern then you should hit specific distances with the clubs you choose. I now can hit a full wedge 100 yards by using the clubs bounce, it goes higher, lands softer and is consistant but I can still play it normal swing 125 yards
		
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Hoping to learn a bit more about this one later in the month, particularly about working the ball.


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## Robobum (Jan 2, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			I think it is different in the fact that you get more consistent results *from knowing
exactly how far back you go for each shot*.
Im not disagreeing with you,but I have seen good improvements in distance control.
Each to there own of course.
		
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As you know mate, I'm the biggest advocate of doing it whatever way gets it done for you - it's the bit in bold that that I don't understand how you can know for sure, hence it still being feel.


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2014)

Robobum said:



			As you know mate, I'm the biggest advocate of doing it whatever way gets it done for you - it's the bit in bold that that I don't understand how you can know for sure, hence it still being feel.
		
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I have always done it by feel only, but, can see the merit of a clock face type swing. You can aways video your practice until the length of back and through swing is ingrained. 

At my first lesson my coach put a water bottle 16 yards away and said that a p2 backswing with his selected club should hit the bottle, first one missed by a foot, the second shot landed on the bottle! Fluke possibly but he did call it before hitting! He asked what distance my 54* club went, I said 100 yards 'ish, he said his went 107 with a full swing - it would be good to have that degree of certainty


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## Jimbooo (Jan 2, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at  9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts 

Click to expand...

In Pelz book, he spends a lot of it going over his 'finesse' short-game swing, before he even touches on the clock-face method.  His ethos is basically what you say - how can you know you're hitting the same 8 o-clock swing every time, and he doesn't advocate moving to the clock-face/distance control chapters until you've mastered it. His finesse swing is the answer (which, among other things, is a more connected/synchronised swing between upper and lower body, and always swinging through to full finish, etc).

Personally, I'm a feel based player tho.


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## Simbo (Jan 2, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at  9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts 

Click to expand...


I use this method to an extent, but the clock times don't need to be rigid. I don't really use the 7.30 one as it's not a great distance to cover and I generally just "feel" it aswell, but the 7.30 swing was basically when my club shaft was horizontal to the ground and my 9pm swing was when my left arm was horizontal to the ground and my left shoulder nearly touched my chin, both of these I find pretty easy to pick up in my peripheral vision. The 10.30 swing is basically as far round as you can go.
I have also used video to verify what I actually think I'm doing though.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2014)

I prefer the Phil Mickleson's 'Hinge and Hold method for pitching and chipping.     He suggests that if anyone tries to show you the clock method you'd be best to run 

The hinge and hold has you taking the club back a shorter distance with an early wrist hinge, then finishing in a high follow through while not letting the club pass your hands.   You can use the same method for chipping, pitching and sand shots.

A problem with the clockface method is it can encourage too big a backswing and this can make you decelerate into the ball and duff the shot.  
[video=youtube;vZWPee66M1s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZWPee66M1s[/video]


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 2, 2014)

What is the recommended swing speed for this clockface method? Is 52mph ok?


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2014)

drive4show said:



			What is the recommended swing speed for this clockface method? Is 52mph ok?
		
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Ten past eleven !


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## Jimbooo (Jan 3, 2014)

drive4show said:



			What is the recommended swing speed for this clockface method? Is 52mph ok?
		
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Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?


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## chrisd (Jan 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I prefer the Phil Mickleson's 'Hinge and Hold method for pitching and chipping.     He suggests that if anyone tries to show you the clock method you'd be best to run 

The hinge and hold has you taking the club back a shorter distance with an early wrist hinge, then finishing in a high follow through while not letting the club pass your hands.   You can use the same method for chipping, pitching and sand shots.

A problem with the clockface method is it can encourage too big a backswing and this can make you decelerate into the ball and duff the shot.  
[video=youtube;vZWPee66M1s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZWPee66M1s[/video]
		
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My coach uses 3 positions on the backswing p2 P3 and p4. I believe Phil is wrong in suggesting that any type of " clock " method says that you always swing to the top on the back swing and the same through to the finish, so, in the process, risk decelerating. 

My pro certainly advocates the same that Phil does, so, a p2 back swing to a full finish with (say) a 56* when you know exactly how far it goes after testing then, if say it goes 47 yards then you have a yardage for that club with that swing - not everyone is as blessed as Phil with great feel and touch. At no time though does a clock method automatically mean the same length of swing back to through


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## pokerjoke (Jan 3, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I prefer the Phil Mickleson's 'Hinge and Hold method for pitching and chipping.     He suggests that if anyone tries to show you the clock method you'd be best to run 

The hinge and hold has you taking the club back a shorter distance with an early wrist hinge, then finishing in a high follow through while not letting the club pass your hands.   You can use the same method for chipping, pitching and sand shots.

A problem with the clockface method is it can encourage too big a backswing and this can make you decelerate into the ball and duff the shot.  
[video=youtube;vZWPee66M1s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZWPee66M1s[/video]
		
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The thing about this video is hes not really describing the clockface drill with this shot.
No-one needs to take the club back to 9 oclock for a 50 yard shot.
A 50 yard shot for me is 7.30 excelerating into impact to about 3 oclock.
If I played the 50 yard shot back to 9 oclock through to a full finish I would be decelerating into impact.
A 9 oclock through to a full finish is 115 yards with a wedge.


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## Roops (Jan 3, 2014)

I used to be all feel for my chipping. After a lesson my pro suggested trying the clock face. I now use both. I asses the shot as a clockface type swing. So it may be a 7 -5 or an 8 - 4 etc, and rehearse the shot this way. Then when I actually swing I just let it happen. I have found this very successful, this last year. Chipped in and chipped close more than ever before.


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## AMcC (Jan 3, 2014)

Roops said:



			I used to be all feel for my chipping. After a lesson my pro suggested trying the clock face. I now use both. I asses the shot as a clockface type swing. So it may be a *7 -5 or an 8 - 4 etc,* and rehearse the shot this way. Then when I actually swing I just let it happen. I have found this very successful, this last year. Chipped in and chipped close more than ever before.
		
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Not sure what you mean with the bit in bold, can you please explain.  thanks:cheers:


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## Roops (Jan 3, 2014)

Imagine a clock face. The club rests at 6 O'clock behind the ball. The shortest chip will require a back swing to 7 O'clock and a follow through to 5 O'clock. A longer chip will be a back swing to 8 O'clock and a follow through to 4 O'clock. Probably explained poorly, but I hope you get the gist of it.


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## AMcC (Jan 3, 2014)

Roops said:



			Imagine a clock face. The club rests at 6 O'clock behind the ball. The shortest chip will require a back swing to 7 O'clock and a follow through to 5 O'clock. A longer chip will be a back swing to 8 O'clock and a follow through to 4 O'clock. Probably explained poorly, but I hope you get the gist of it.
		
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Understand that fine thanks.

Thought it had to do with choosing clubs etc.


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## SGC001 (Jan 4, 2014)

AMcC said:



			Understand that fine thanks.

Thought it had to do with choosing clubs etc.
		
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If you're looking for a method of choosing club for chipping then the rule of 12 is one method of helping to decide club (google it for videos of it).

Basically it's a guide for carry and roll ratios. 
In the end they work out like this
1 part carry 1 part roll SW
1 part carry 2 parts roll PW
1 Part carry 3 parts roll 9I
1 part carry 4 parts roll 8I...
then factor in things like speed of greens, grain, firmness, uphill, downhill...

and usually suggest chipping it 3 foot onto the green (first flat part of) (carry part) and select the club where the roll would be appropriate to reach the flag (roll part).

So carry 3 yards, flag 9 yards
Carry 1 part (3), roll 2 parts (6) = Pw

I think the rule of 12 is actually carry/roll subtracted from 12. (12-(6/3)=10)

As the ratios progress up in such a easy manner I tend to just remember them.


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## Robobum (Jan 4, 2014)

SGC001 said:



			If you're looking for a method of choosing club for chipping then the rule of 12 is one method of helping to decide club (google it for videos of it).

Basically it's a guide for carry and roll ratios. 
In the end they work out like this
1 part carry 1 part roll SW
1 part carry 2 parts roll PW
1 Part carry 3 parts roll 9I
1 part carry 4 parts roll 8I...
then factor in things like speed of greens, grain, firmness, uphill, downhill...

and usually suggest chipping it 3 foot onto the green (first flat part of) (carry part) and select the club where the roll would be appropriate to reach the flag (roll part).

So carry 3 yards, flag 9 yards
Carry 1 part (3), roll 2 parts (6) = Pw

I think the rule of 12 is actually carry/roll subtracted from 12. (12-(6/3)=10)

As the ratios progress up in such a easy manner I tend to just remember them.
		
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Dead simple


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## SGC001 (Jan 4, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Dead simple

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Yeah (for roll to carry)
1:1 sw
2:1 pw
3:1 9i
it's complicated stuff


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Dead simple

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Don't tell me,you don't understand ratio"s either


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## Robobum (Jan 4, 2014)

I just prefer the Cooper method.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 4, 2014)

I have dabbled with the linear method and the clock face method. I feel the Pelz clock face was to regimental for me and I lacked feel. I liked the linear method much more and have some short game lessons booked for the start of the season and hoping we can build on these principles


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## chrisd (Jan 6, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I have dabbled with the linear method and the clock face method. I feel the Pelz clock face was to regimental for me and I lacked feel. I liked the linear method much more and have some short game lessons booked for the start of the season and hoping we can build on these principles
		
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I think that the linear method is a good plan. It's starting well for me and certainly got me two birdies yesterday with a 100 and an 80 yard pitch on consecutive holes, both to about 2 foot. I think that you can embrace the principles of it and tweak it to suit to some degree. My pro encourages a wrist break early on and I spoke to Andrew Jones one of GM's Top 25 coaches yesterday and he likes no wrist break, so, embrace the overall plan in your own style is my view.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			The thing about this video is hes not really describing the clockface drill with this shot.
No-one needs to take the club back to 9 oclock for a 50 yard shot.
A 50 yard shot for me is 7.30 excelerating into impact to about 3 oclock.
*If I played the 50 yard shot back to 9 oclock through to a full finish I would be decelerating into impact*.
A 9 oclock through to a full finish is 115 yards with a wedge.
		
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Depends what loft you are using.  He is using 60 Deg there for the 50 Yard shot.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 8, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Depends what loft you are using.  He is using 60 Deg there for the 50 Yard shot.
		
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Come on mate cant you see he takes it back to 8 o clock to a full finish.
If he took it back to the 9 o clock position he was showing first,of course it would
go further than 50 yards.
However that's very easy to control as well.
Im all for the players that use feel,too.
All hes really saying is make sure you excelerate into impact,however far you take a club
back.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Q for those who use this method - How do you know that you are swinging to 9 o'clock? (for example)

On three balls all landing in same pitchmark - do you know that you haven't hit one at 8 o'clock with a little extra "hit", one at  9 o'clock (perfect) and one at 10 o'clock with a little decell?

Video?

Has to be by feel for me, I'd be tied in knots with clock thoughts 

Click to expand...

9 O'Clock is easy - arms are horizontal. P3 for the backswing analysts!

10:30 (or 3/4 or whatever) is relatively easy too. For me it's the point at which I'd let my wrists cock fully for a 'full' swing.

I never really got on with the 7:30, so don't use the 'finesse' swing for that. 

It's not particularly significant where a particular swing gets to for the Pelz finesse style to be effective. The key aspects are to get it consistent (why I dropped the 7:30) and for the follow through to get to the same place on all swings. It just means that someone's 'natural' long (my term) swing is 11:00 or 10:00 rather than 10:30 - with appropriate distance distances. Of course, the Pros, with all the practice they do!, can alter these by 'minutes' for the particular distances they want to fly the ball - which is how Pelz's 'discovery' came about! And just because it's a 'disciplined/rigorous/' approach doesn't mean there's no 'feel' involved.

The key part of the system is the confidence of knowing whether it's a 'normal' swing or whether some extra zip, or other adjustment, is required. That simply takes one variable (and a major one at that) out of consideration. For me, it's as important as (probably exactly the same as) the benefit knowing the distance to where I want to hit in the first place! The shot still has to be struck properly, with a 'good' swing, to be effective though. 

Pelz 10:30 swing is pretty reliable for me on clubs up to 7-iron and I have used it effectively with 6 or 5 iron on occasions.


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