# Screw club manufacturers!



## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

I tried out a set of clubs yesterday, or rather a "7" iron from that set, along with my current 7 iron.

I found I was hitting the new club 10-15 yards further. Nice one!

Nice, except for the reason I used the quote marks around the '7' in my first sentence. The reason being the new "7" iron was not just longer, but had a stronger angle to it. In other words it was more like my 6 iron! How the heck am I meant to compare that!? What is the point of buying new clubs when I'm being tricked like this?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

So you didn't check the lofts on both clubs to see the difference as its common knowledge that different manufacturers possibly have different lofts on each club


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2016)

Since your having a rant I will have one too.
Does it flipping matter.

As long as it gives you the ball flight and result it can have anything written on it,it really doesn't matter.


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I tried out a set of clubs yesterday, or rather a "7" iron from that set, along with my current 7 iron.

I found I was hitting the new club 10-15 yards further. Nice one!

Nice, except for the reason I used the quote marks around the '7' in my first sentence. The reason being the new "7" iron was not just longer, but had a stronger angle to it. In other words it was more like my 6 iron! How the heck am I meant to compare that!? What is the point of buying new clubs when I'm being tricked like this?
		
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You have not been tricked you just don't know what your looking for and your knowledge is poor of the product your looking for.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I tried out a set of clubs yesterday, or rather a "7" iron from that set, along with my current 7 iron.

I found I was hitting the new club 10-15 yards further. Nice one!

Nice, except for the reason I used the quote marks around the '7' in my first sentence. The reason being the new "7" iron was not just longer, but had a stronger angle to it. In other words it was more like my 6 iron! How the heck am I meant to compare that!? What is the point of buying new clubs when I'm being tricked like this?
		
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The idea is not to compare 7 irons across different manufacturers. That became a waste of time about 10 years ago and if all you are doing is looking for this magical extra distance that one manufacturer has that anothers does not then you are being a bit naive.  If you compare clubs in the same area (i.e. game improvers) with the same loft across manufacturers then they will go roughly the same distance if hit in the same place.  Doesn't matter if it says 5,6 or 7 on the bottom, a club with 32 degrees of loft from one manufacturer will roughly go the same distance as a club with 32 degrees from another.


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## Vardon11LDN (Feb 17, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			You have not been tricked you just don't know what your looking for and your knowledge is poor of the product your looking for.
		
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Ouch!


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## Crazyface (Feb 17, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			You have not been tricked you just don't know what your looking for and your knowledge is poor of the product your looking for.
		
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"How to win friends and influence people" A very small book by pj


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## ruff-driver (Feb 17, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			"How to win friends and influence people" A very small book by pj
		
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:clap:


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

i see where you are coming from. if you are not an equipment nut like a most, how would you know a lot of 7 irons are now 6 or even 5 irons?? there is a bit of wool pulling here by manufactures esp when it comes to distance gains are concerned. one of the guys in my group had Mizuno mp60 's they were a bit worn out so fancied new clubs tried a few makes and settled on TM speed blades. he was over the moon with them as he was hitting is irons a good club further.... it wasn't till someone pointed out that the lofts where so much stronger and he was just hitting one more club effectively. 


he's back using the worn out mp60 now


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## Tashyboy (Feb 17, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			You have not been tricked you just don't know what your looking for and your knowledge is poor of the product your looking for.
		
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As much as it is to the point it is not to far from the truth, although I don't think the book will be a best seller.
Re lesson learned, am sure when it comes to golf,most of us have thought at some stage when buying something that " we didn't know that", it's just that sometimes we have not shared it on here and then been ripped to bits. Welcome to the real forum.
I would not be to bothered about changes in loft etc, it's what club makers have done to help us find the "perfect" club. If there were no changes we would still be playing with wood shafts.
Use this learning experience when buying other golf products IE putters, drivers etc etc.
One last piece of advice, when it comes to golf manufacturers marketing there products, the Sales pitch is something to behold. Don't get sucked into shiny products just coz. The product says it goes further, less spin, makes you look thinner. try try try before you buy.


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## User 105 (Feb 17, 2016)

Lets face it, it's all about distance vs dispersion.

If you have two 7i's one with cranked lofts and it flies further than the other 7i but you get the same dispersion, then it's a winner. Who cares what they have stamped on it.


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## Sweep (Feb 17, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			You have not been tricked you just don't know what your looking for and your knowledge is poor of the product your looking for.
		
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To be fair the OP has been tricked, in the way the manufacturers tried to trick us all. just because some of us know about it and are used to this kind of selling doesn't mean everyone is. Most would consider it fair to compare one 7 iron with another 7 iron. It is simply a way for a manufacturer to claim their 7 iron goes further than their competitors 7 iron, when actually it's a 6 iron with a 7 stamped on the bottom. That makes it a trick. So now we all have to do our research and make sure our product knowledge is not "poor". The question is, is it right we have been put in this position by the manufacturers trying to trick us? I have every sympathy with the OP and I hope he realised before he bought the clubs. I also hope the manufacturers will one day realise this kind of selling and endless, spurious claims about distance actually does them and the image of club manufacturers no favours at all.


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## KenL (Feb 17, 2016)

The problem for me is at the shorter end of the bag.  I don't want a PW with 40 degrees of loft that goes about 150 yards.  This makes filling the gaps more difficult where it really matters when trying to get close to the hole.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2016)

The manufacturers don't set out to "trick" customers but need to use psychology to get them to buy clubs that suit them. Modern game improvement clubs are *much*easier to hit & get airborne now than they used to be. If a golfer thinks that the longest iron he can hit consistently is a 5 iron he'll buy a 5 to PW set.  If the manufacturer knows that he could hit their 4 iron well,  and probably the same height as a traditional 5 iron,  the manufacturer will call the 4 iron a 5 iron and adjust the lofts & lengths of the other irons accordingly. My view is that the first iron in your bag should be the longest & lowest lofted that you can hit consistently,  doesn't matter what it's called. 

Manufacturers have a hard time with public perception v reality.  I'm a pro photographer & my cameras produce photos which blow up faultlessly to 3 feet by 2 feet.  There are cheap point & shoot cameras on the market with more pixels than my professional equipment.  The larger number of pixels actually detracts from the camera's performance.  So why does the manufacturer do it? Because the buyers think that "more is better".  

In the same way many people will buy the club's that appear to go further rather than taking time to see what really suits them.


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			"How to win friends and influence people" A very small book by pj
		
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To be honest the op was having a rant so I had a rant back and as someone pointed out the op probably was a bit naÃ¯ve,however

If I was going to buy any product and I was paying a significant price for that product I certainly would be doing some research first.

If that product seemed to be a lot better than a supposedly similar product I would ask the question why.

As has been said many times people get caught up in the this club hits it further camp when really ball flight and dispersion would be a better option.
It really does not matter what is stamped on the bottom as long as it works and it is consistent through the set,I mean all this info is available before buying.

I am blunt but I like to tell it how it is and I like others that do the same,all this  trying not to upset anyone rubbish gets on my wick:ears:


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2016)

KenL said:



			The problem for me is at the shorter end of the bag.  I don't want a PW with 40 degrees of loft that goes about 150 yards.  This makes filling the gaps more difficult where it really matters when trying to get close to the hole.
		
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What I think is a good idea,  & what I've done with my own clubs before,  is to set the loft of,  say,  the 4 iron at the lowest you can handle & the length at the longest comfortable.  Then adjust the wedges to the length &  lofts you want and spread the length & lofts of the 5 to 9 irons evenly between the 4 & PW. That way you have slightly larger gaps between clubs but the short irons are not too straight & you don't need to carry 5 wedges. The larger gaps shouldn't be a problem,  the distances between the pros' clubs are much bigger than yours will ever be.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 17, 2016)

Take a look at this thread from a week or 2 ago
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?82808-Traditionalists-prepare-to-be-grumpy


Covers the subject in some detail

I personally think that there should be a set degree range for each club,  iw PW between 45-47 degrees or whatever, so you can compare a 7 iron with your current set,
All cranking up the lofts does is create gaps at the bottom of your bag


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 17, 2016)

Some harsh repsonses here. Mot everyone is an expert, not everyone researches to the n'th degree. It seems reasonable to expect a 7 iron of one mfr to be the same loft as the 7 iron from another. The moment they start to deviate the numbers becomes irrelevant. On tv you don't hear the on course commentator say the player is using a 29Â° iron, they say they are using an 8 iron or a 9 iron. Same for us amateurs when we take our shots.

Now I know, as do most on this forum, that mfrs have manipulated the lofts for marketing purposes but plenty out there don't. I agree with the OP, the system is wrong and either the mfrs should agree a tolerance for a particular iron number or, like Cleveland, they should stamp the loft on each iron as well as a number.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

You only need to ask or check on the manufacturers website to see the lofts of each club. Don't need to be an expert


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

Sweep said:



			To be fair the OP has been tricked, in the way the manufacturers tried to trick us all. just because some of us know about it and are used to this kind of selling doesn't mean everyone is. Most would consider it fair to compare one 7 iron with another 7 iron. It is simply a way for a manufacturer to claim their 7 iron goes further than their competitors 7 iron, when actually it's a 6 iron with a 7 stamped on the bottom. That makes it a trick. So now we all have to do our research and make sure our product knowledge is not "poor". The question is, is it right we have been put in this position by the manufacturers trying to trick us? I have every sympathy with the OP and I hope he realised before he bought the clubs.
		
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Thank you for your support.  ;-)

I do indeed feel like I was tricked (by Benross) and that I'd essentially wasted my time. Fortunately I didn't buy the clubs, as I had spotted the stronger loft while I was trying out the club, and so was put off by it. 



Sweep said:



			I also hope the manufacturers will one day realise this kind of selling and endless, spurious claims about distance actually does them and the image of club manufacturers no favours at all.
		
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Bingo! (See above)

Benross may not have intended to trick me, but that is the net effect. They're not actually game improvement clubs if all they're doing is making a 7 iron in to a 6 iron with a different name. I could achieve the same thing by clubbing up when I'm playing a round without buying new clubs.

Golf is complicated (and hard) enough without having to also be an equipment geek. I have enough in my head already!  



Westy said:



			Lets face it, it's all about distance vs dispersion.

If you have two 7i's one with cranked lofts and it flies further than the other 7i but you get the same dispersion, then it's a winner. Who cares what they have stamped on it.
		
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Indeed. I am actually at least as interested in the forgiveness (and from that the less dispersion) offered by the clubs, but it's more difficult, I think, to tell that with a 40 range balls divided between three 7 irons as I was doing yesterday, due to the small sample.

There are some club manufacturers who are at least trying to be a bit more honest about it:
http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-7547-Have_You_Noticed_What_They_Are_Doing.html


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

You could argue both sides are at fault.  The average punter for mostly prioritising distance and being obsessed with which 7 iron will go the furthest and using that as the main buying criteria.  And because of that the manufacturers have created the situation where they can quite legitimately prove that their 7 iron goes further than a previous version, mostly through reducing the loft. Although they also have to do other things as you just don't crank the lofts.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			Thank you for your support.  ;-)

I do indeed feel like I was tricked (by Benross) and that I'd essentially wasted my time. Fortunately I didn't buy the clubs, as I had spotted the stronger loft while I was trying out the club, and so was put off by it. 



Bingo! (See above)

Benross may not have intended to trick me, but that is the net effect. They're not actually game improvement clubs *if all they're doing is making a 7 iron in to a 6 iron with a different name. I could achieve the same thing by clubbing up when I'm playing a round without buying new clubs.*

Golf is complicated (and hard) enough without having to also be an equipment geek. I have enough in my head already!  



Indeed. I am actually at least as interested in the forgiveness (and from that the less dispersion) offered by the clubs, but it's more difficult, I think, to tell that with a 40 range balls divided between three 7 irons as I was doing yesterday, due to the small sample.

There are some club manufacturers who are at least trying to be a bit more honest about it:
http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+...547-Have_You_Noticed_What_They_Are_Doing.html

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But that is not just all they are doing. They are also mostly making the ball launch higher with more foregiveness, so the average punter will have more chance of getting say a 32 degree club to hit the ball in the air.  So yes there is an argument to say a 4 iron is the same as a 3 iron a few years ago in terms of pure loft.  But the average punter will have more chance of hitting the new 4 iron well than the old 3 iron due to the increased forgiveness and the way the COG is placed lower and deeper in the head.


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## One Planer (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm sure Delc will be along in a minute......


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You only need to ask or check on the manufacturers website to see the lofts of each club. Don't need to be an expert
		
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Yes but most people don't want to do lots of research checking lofts. When you buy trousers do you check each manufacturer to see if one is a little tighter? No, you expect a 34/31 to be just that. When they emerge at 33/30 you are entitled to feel a little miffed. What a faff to go into a golf shop, look at 4-5 different mfrs irons and then spend however long checking the lofts online before you go any further. Standardise the lofts to an iron number and give a 1Â° tolerance either way.

That is even easier.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes but most people don't want to do lots of research checking lofts. When you buy trousers do you check each manufacturer to see if one is a little tighter? No, you expect a 34/31 to be just that. When they emerge at 33/30 you are entitled to feel a little miffed. What a faff to go into a golf shop, look at 4-5 different mfrs irons and then spend however long checking the lofts online before you go any further. Standardise the lofts to an iron number and give a 1Â° tolerance either way.

That is even easier.
		
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Actually yes I do check - same with shoes and shirts 

I think it's common sense that nothing is uniform across all sorts of platforms 

So will always check the size of clothing and always a quick check on lofts etc 

To me that's nothing but common sense to do so

Why is it a faff - all you need to do is ask the person or pro or use the smart phone


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2016)

Cloths are anything but uniform.  Poor example.   they can even get shoe size right.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Cloths are anything but uniform.  Poor example.   they can even get shoe size right.
		
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Actually that is a very good point.  But a pair of 34 inch trousers from the US and they are at least a 36.  Buy them from some posh designer and they are closer to 32s. And I am convinced that they do that in the US as there are so many fatties who feel better as they can fit into say a 35 inch trouser, so they will buy them.  When in fact they are closer to 38 inches.  

Exactly the same, they want you to feel good as you can hit your 8 iron 160 yards and feel good as you can fit into some 34 inch trousers.

And yes I do stock up on trousers when I go to the US


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2016)

Cloths are anything but uniform apart from when they are literally a uniform.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay, let's try this with a loaf of bread instead of trousers. If I buy a white sliced loaf I expect it be a white sliced loaf, not a wholemeal sliced loaf because that is healthier for me. I want it to do what is says on the packet. Does that one work better? People on here forget that most golfers don't follow forums, read magazines etc and so genuinely believe that all 7 irons, for example, are the same loft. You can't blame them either when each one stamps a 7 on the club. 

Back to trousers, for those who want to feel good about trousers I recommend Fat Face where I need to wear a belt with 34" trousers unlike other shops where a 34 is starting to feel a little cosy.


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

I think originally the manufacturers did attempt to trick people. It's become so common place now though that no one really thinks that way, it's become accepted. I think anyone claiming that the manufacturers are not tricking people are being, shall we say, very naive! Manufacturers will do anything (within the parameters) to succeed and while there is no standardisation it will continue. 

On here I think I'm in the minority but I absolutely think there should be standardisation as to what you can call a 7 iron. Because of the way clubs work, launch angle etc you could have this per type of club. Eg sgi 7iron should be 33-35 gi 34-6 etc (or whatever). That would make sense. And whilst I might be in the minority on here who think this, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm in the vast majority of normal golfers out there. 
To answer one point, yes you can look on your phone at the lofts but the point is you shouldn't have to! Make it easier for people to buy not harder.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

All it takes is for someone to ask 

If they have failed to realise that lofts on different manufacturers are different then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be bothered about it 

In this day and age I'm amazed anyone spends a good deal of money without doing some basic research of what you are buying


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All it takes is for someone to ask 

If they have failed to realise that lofts on different manufacturers are different then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be bothered about it 

In this day and age I'm amazed anyone spends a good deal of money without doing some basic research of what you are buying
		
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Spot on
God this place is like a kindergarden sometimes,are people losing the ability to think for themselves.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			,
All cranking up the lofts does is create gaps at the bottom of your bag
		
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See post #16


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

Ask yourself this, if it doesn't matter what's printed on the bottom of the club, why have them at all? 

Because it does matter &#128521; and many people who buy clubs (I won't say most because I don't have the data) are sucked into it...

Now let's be clear I'm not trying to change your mind here, it's already made up, and I accept that. No ones opinion an be wrong, but likewise, I think you have to accept that the majority of golf club buyers (probably) think the numbers do mean something and a 7 is a7 is a 7 regardless of manufacturers. 

Who knows, maybe there will be some form of standardisation in the future... I won't lose sleep if there isn't but tend to think there should be one.


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## Slab (Feb 17, 2016)

To an extent all the manufactures have done is exploit the vanity of the player

Theyâ€™ve seen & heard all the talk in clubhouses and forums all over the world about â€˜I hit my X iron 175â€™ and guessed correctly that a large % of listeners who donâ€™t hit their X iron 175 will spend wads of mulla chasing their fellow players distances, when all that really matters is how accurately you hit whatever club you have that goes 175 

Iâ€™m sure itâ€™s been said on one of these threads but what benefit is there in gaining 10 yards on your new 9 iron thatâ€™s now lofted like an 8? The ball flight from the new 9 isnâ€™t even the same as either your old-school 8 or 9, it just isnâ€™t comparable


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## HickoryShaft (Feb 17, 2016)

Damm, I thought the thread was about new clubs with screw heads that you could change the shafts like drivers now




....I'll be off then!


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

TheJezster said:



			Ask yourself this, if it doesn't matter what's printed on the bottom of the club, why have them at all? 

Because it does matter &#62985; and many people who buy clubs (I won't say most because I don't have the data) are sucked into it...

Now let's be clear I'm not trying to change your mind here, it's already made up, and I accept that. No ones opinion an be wrong, but likewise, I think you have to accept that the majority of golf club buyers (probably) think the numbers do mean something and a 7 is a7 is a 7 regardless of manufacturers. 

Who knows, maybe there will be some form of standardisation in the future... *I won't lose sleep if there isn't but tend to think there should be one*.
		
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Don't think it will never happen as manufacturers will claim it will hinder innovation. Clubs have evolved for 100s of years. You could ask who are we as the current generation to say that they can't evolve any further and we have to stick with a 5 iron being this specific loft and a 6 iron being this just because a few people are getting suckered in by the adverts?


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2016)

A 7 iron is a 7 iron because of the weight of the head. That's it. It has nothing to do with loft. That could be anything. It's not specified, and it doesn't need to be, that is left up to the manufacturer.


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			A 7 iron is a 7 iron because of the weight of the head. That's it. It has nothing to do with loft. That could be anything. It's not specified, and it doesn't need to be, that is left up to the manufacturer.
		
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Nail on head


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## srixon 1 (Feb 17, 2016)

This is why wedges no longer have a 'W' or 'S' on the bottom. In the past there was only one possible loft that a normal pitching wedge could be, hence the 'W'. The other wedge in your bag was usually a sand iron and had an 'S' on it.

With the decreasing of the lofts of the other clubs it has caused a massive gapping issue at the wedge end of the bag. Consequently we need more wedges, and because we now need more than a 'W' or 'S' wedge the majority of new wedges all have the loft in actual numbers stamped on them.

Why not just put the lofts on the whole iron set?


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

srixon 1 said:



			This is why wedges no longer have a 'W' or 'S' on the bottom. In the past there was only one possible loft that a normal pitching wedge could be, hence the 'W'. The other wedge in your bag was usually a sand iron and had an 'S' on it.

With the decreasing of the lofts of the other clubs it has caused a massive gapping issue at the wedge end of the bag. Consequently we need more wedges, and because we now need more than a 'W' or 'S' wedge the majority of new wedges all have the loft in actual numbers stamped on them.

*Why not just put the lofts on the whole iron set*?
		
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Some do but I am guessing that will confuse the average punter even more.  Now punters know they roughly want from 4 or 5 iron to pitching or sand wedge.  Imagine how complicated it would be if the average punter then had to work out what lofted clubs they needed throughout the whole bag? It's bad enough with wedges which only really span a relatively short range of loft angles.


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## Sweep (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All it takes is for someone to ask 

If they have failed to realise that lofts on different manufacturers are different then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be bothered about it 

In this day and age I'm amazed anyone spends a good deal of money without doing some basic research of what you are buying
		
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Except the OP didn't realise and he was very bothered about it.


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## Sweep (Feb 17, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Spot on
God this place is like a kindergarden sometimes,are people losing the ability to think for themselves.
		
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I think he entitled to believe a 7 iron is a 7 iron when he thinks for himself.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

Sweep said:



			I think he entitled to believe a 7 iron is a 7 iron when he thinks for himself.
		
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It is a 7 iron - a 7 iron those manufacturer specifications


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Except the OP didn't realise and he was very bothered about it.
		
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So if he was going to be that bothered about the loft of the clubs why didn't he ask ?


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## Sweep (Feb 17, 2016)

Because he thought lofts were standardised as most people who don't eat, sleep and drink golf will do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Because he thought lofts were standardised as most people who don't eat, sleep and drink golf will do.
		
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Lofts havent been standard for decades I would suggest and all it takes to find that out is ask - I didn't eat sleep and drink golf and knew that.


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lofts have been standard for decades I would suggest and all it takes to find that out is ask - I didn't eat sleep and drink golf and knew that.
		
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??? Eih? 

If they were we wouldn't be having this discussion! &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## ADB (Feb 17, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Because he thought lofts were standardised as most people who don't eat, sleep and drink golf will do.
		
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Is the correct answer.


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## WWG (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you didn't check the lofts on both clubs to see the difference as its common knowledge that different manufacturers possibly have different lofts on each club
		
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This is especially true with hybrids and woods, but most people check the spec first. I just bought a new set or irons, and whilst they may be better than my old ones, each club doesn't project the ball as far as my last. I am not bothered though, as my hybrids fill in the shots between my 5 iron and 5 wood. I think the poster of the thread should view his purchase as being more consistent and accurate, rather than being to concerned about the distance, especially as he can always go up a club if required.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

TheJezster said:



			??? Eih? 

If they were we wouldn't be having this discussion! &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;
		
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Auto correct on the spelling - it was supposed to say "haven't"


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2016)

Hogan have the answer http://www.benhogangolf.com/equipment This is the way manufacturers should go,  then the only variable is the length of each club.


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2016)

I've never fully understood the "need more wedges" argument. Surely people know that they can just vary the swing length to control distance don't they?? 2 wedges are enough. 3 is also good. Some prefer 4. Who cares. 

With regards to standardised irons, As long as you know how far you hit each club then what's the problem. The only real consideration should be dispersion (and maybe launch height).


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## GB72 (Feb 17, 2016)

I thought that the increase in loft was necessary to counteract the affect of perimeter weighting, a necessity rather than an attempt to dupe consumers.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 17, 2016)

Isn't the fitter more culpable here?  OK I can kind of buy that someone may assume that all 7 irons are the same (but then again do they assume all 1.6 litre engines are the same, all 4 bedroom houses are the same). But surely a quick question to the fitter or the fitter even explaining this would have sorted this all out?


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## fundy (Feb 17, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Hogan have the answer http://www.benhogangolf.com/equipment This is the way manufacturers should go,  then the only variable is the length of each club.
		
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The set they quote me has exactly the same lofts I already have through my irons and wedges. Plenty of ways to get a set built with sensible lofts and decent gaps


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Except the OP didn't realise and he was very bothered about it.
		
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Spot on. I think it also depends on what is meant by "basic" research (cf. Liverpoolphil). I researched price, suitability for a high-handicapper, shaft type (graphite is my preference), customer reviews, make (I targeted Benross because of their target being club golfers rather than everyone including pros - if that's incorrect, please someone tell me!), and to a certain extent customer reviews. Is that basic research, or less than basic research?

I didn't research on lofts because, as you rightly said in other post, I had no reason to believe that all 7 iron lofts *aren't* created equal.

As I mentioned earlier, I feel like my A-B comparison with my 7 iron was something of a waste of time, and that I'll now have to go back and test it again but against my 6 iron in order to see what, if any, improvement (not just on distance) these new clubs might offer.

Or perhaps the whole 'buying a new set of clubs' idea is actually pointless! Maybe my clubs are fine and a new set won't offer anything to me beyond being shinier.


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## fundy (Feb 17, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I've never fully understood the "need more wedges" argument. Surely people know that they can just vary the swing length to control distance don't they?? 2 wedges are enough. 3 is also good. Some prefer 4. Who cares. 

With regards to standardised irons, As long as you know how far you hit each club then what's the problem. The only real consideration should be dispersion (and maybe launch height).
		
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Lets say I hit my longest iron thats not a wedge 150yds carry. Lets now assume I'm far more accurate hitting a wedge 95% than I am hitting it 60% 70% 80% or 90%. Would you want more or less wedges????


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2016)

fundy said:



			Lets say I hit my longest iron thats not a wedge 150yds carry. Lets now assume I'm far more accurate hitting a wedge 95% than I am hitting it 60% 70% 80% or 90%. Would you want more or less wedges????
		
Click to expand...


I'd probably want to get better at hitting it 60, 70, 80 and 90% to be honest. 

In in all honesty, I have no issue with people carrying as many wedges as they want. Carry a bag full for me. But to blame the iron set lofts for the issue just seems a bit like blame shifting to me. 

Find end the irons that put you in the best position to score well. The number on the bottom is almost irrelevant. You could give them all girls names. "For this shot I'm going to pull out Victoria"


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## fundy (Feb 17, 2016)

bluewolf said:




*I'd probably want to get better at hitting it 60, 70, 80 and 90% to be honest.* 

In in all honesty, I have no issue with people carrying as many wedges as they want. Carry a bag full for me. But to blame the iron set lofts for the issue just seems a bit like blame shifting to me. 

Find end the irons that put you in the best position to score well. The number on the bottom is almost irrelevant. You could give them all girls names. "For this shot I'm going to pull out Victoria" 

Click to expand...

damn been playing 25 years and never thought of that lol

Im not blaming the lofts just explaining why for me I carry more wedges, Ive just ensured I have the lofts that best suit me and my game (and address my short comings the best they can)


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## Garush34 (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All it takes is for someone to ask 

If they have failed to realise that lofts on different manufacturers are different then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be bothered about it 

In this day and age I'm amazed anyone spends a good deal of money without doing some basic research of what you are buying
		
Click to expand...

Have to agree with Phil here. If your investing in new clubs surely you do a bit of research about them. Which clearly the OP has done after trying the clubs otherwise they wouldn't know about the differences in loft. But to say they are conning or duping customers isn't entirely correct considering the information is all there online for people to see if they want. I thought it be common sense to check something like that out. 

At the end of the day I couldn't be bothered if my 7 iron is 32 or 34 degrees, as long as it does the job of striking the ball with my help that's fine. I'll likely have to adjust to different distances anyway due to the technology or shaft differences compared to my current set. So what does it matter if the loft is different as well.


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

WWG said:



			I think the poster of the thread should view his purchase as being more consistent and accurate, rather than being to concerned about the distance
		
Click to expand...

You and others have assumed, not unreasonably from what I wrote, that I'm primarily concerned about gaining distance on my shots. I'm actually not, but obviously I noticed that the Benross 7 iron was hitting the ball further with a similar flight. That obviously brightened my day - until I spotted the difference in length and loft, at which point I felt deceived.

So, just to complete the picture, my intention is to achieve better distance and directional consistency on mis-hits. My suspicion (and I do recognise that my technique is also involved here!) is that poor shots with my clubs are resulting in more directional and distance dispersion than a better set of clubs might. If I gain more distance as well, I'll be happy, but that's not the objective.


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Hogan have the answer http://www.benhogangolf.com/equipment This is the way manufacturers should go,  then the only variable is the length of each club.
		
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The guy (Terry Koehler) who runs Ben Hogan Golf is also the guy who wrote the article on the oobgolf.com site that I posted earlier.


This whole issue is definitely his bugbear!


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2016)

fundy said:



			damn been playing 25 years and never thought of that lol

Im not blaming the lofts just explaining why for me I carry more wedges, Ive just ensured I have the lofts that best suit me and my game (and address my short comings the best they can)
		
Click to expand...

Youve adapted your bag to best suit your game. I agree with your philosophy. It's a free market and you've made your choice and are happy with it. 

 I'm just getting a bit bored with people thinking that loft is the only variable in the mix. It's not. It's a choice. Like any other purchase in life. I don't buy a house purely because it has 3 bedrooms. I don't buy a car based purely on engine size. I don't buy a shirt based purely on size. Etc, etc, etc.


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## fundy (Feb 17, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Youve adapted your bag to best suit your game. I agree with your philosophy. It's a free market and you've made your choice and are happy with it. 

 I'm just getting a bit bored with people thinking that loft is the only variable in the mix. It's not. It's a choice. Like any other purchase in life. I don't buy a house purely because it has 3 bedrooms. I don't buy a car based purely on engine size. I don't buy a shirt based purely on size. Etc, etc, etc. 

Click to expand...

Can see both sides tbh, does a get frustrating when you buy an off the shelf set and the shortest club carries 130+ or more for a full swing then people tell you that you shouldnt need more than 2 wedges.  As you say Im more than happy with my set up, its been built for my shonky ability with less than a full swing lol


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			Spot on. I think it also depends on what is meant by "basic" research (cf. Liverpoolphil). I researched price, suitability for a high-handicapper, shaft type (graphite is my preference), customer reviews, make (I targeted Benross because of their target being club golfers rather than everyone including pros - if that's incorrect, please someone tell me!), and to a certain extent customer reviews. Is that basic research, or less than basic research?

I didn't research on lofts because, as you rightly said in other post, I had no reason to believe that all 7 iron lofts *aren't* created equal.

As I mentioned earlier, I feel like my A-B comparison with my 7 iron was something of a waste of time, and that I'll now have to go back and test it again but against my 6 iron in order to see what, if any, improvement (not just on distance) these new clubs might offer.

Or perhaps the whole 'buying a new set of clubs' idea is actually pointless! Maybe my clubs are fine and a new set won't offer anything to me beyond being shinier.  

Click to expand...

So you took the time to research everything but the lofts - the lofts will be mentioned in club reviews by users and magazines etc


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2016)

GB72 said:



			I thought that the increase in loft was necessary to counteract the affect of perimeter weighting, a necessity rather than an attempt to dupe consumers.
		
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Precisely.  If your longest iron is,  say,  20Â° loft & it's called a 4 iron & the pitching wedge is 46Â° then all the other lofts have to be gapped to fill the space from 5 to 9. If the 4 iron was properly called a 2 iron nobody would buy the set because they'd say "someone of my standard can't hit a 2 iron" when,  because of perimeter weighting / low C of G, the actually can. 

And whee is Delc anyway?


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## 3565 (Feb 17, 2016)

I can understand the OP's concern.  My 7i is standard length with 34* loft, I wanted to try a Nippon 105 Shaft in the latest Ping i whatever head 7i and took to the practise ground to compare. The shaft was lighter in weight then mine and so I gained 6mph club head speed and it was going a lot further then my 7i which was only 6g heavier in shaft. Besides the Club speed which will gain me extra yardage,  Something wasn't feeling right as it was going a lot further so I checked the loft of the Ping and it was 4* stronger at 30*............ So that equates to my 6i loft which is half inch longer in shaft then the Ping 7i....... So in reality how can you compare as you need like for like, same loft and length.


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			A 7 iron is a 7 iron because of the weight of the head. That's it. It has nothing to do with loft. That could be anything. It's not specified, and it doesn't need to be, that is left up to the manufacturer.
		
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Has anyone actually read murph's post? The number is determined by head weight. The loft question is also irrelevant. As someone else pointed out they have to crank the lofts to counteract the fact they are easier to launch. Otherwise we'd all be whacking OUR PW up our nostrils.

The crux of the issue is WHY are you changing clubs? I just bought some new irons and wedges. Why? Because I wasn't sure my current set were the right fit for me. Turns out I was right. They were too upright, too long and the shafts were too stiff. 

What did I want from my new clubs? Consistent yardage gaps, improved feedback and ideally no loss of distance. To achieve that my lofts 5 - LW now go 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 45, 50, 54, 58. I had the 5 iron strengthened by one degree as part of the fitting process and I'm looking to put in an 18 & 21 hybrid. 

I don't care what number is on the sole of the club. I only care about what club corresponds to what distance. So my question to the OP is why were you looking at buying clubs?
- more distance?
- more forgiveness?
- money burning a hole in your pocket?


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			Has anyone actually read murph's post? The number is determined by head weight. The loft question is also irrelevant. As someone else pointed out they have to crank the lofts to counteract the fact they are easier to launch. Otherwise we'd all be whacking OUR PW up our nostrils.

The crux of the issue is WHY are you changing clubs? I just bought some new irons and wedges. Why? Because I wasn't sure my current set were the right fit for me. Turns out I was right. They were too upright, too long and the shafts were too stiff. 

What did I want from my new clubs? Consistent yardage gaps, improved feedback and ideally no loss of distance. To achieve that my lofts 5 - LW now go 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 45, 50, 54, 58. I had the 5 iron strengthened by one degree as part of the fitting process and I'm looking to put in an 18 & 21 hybrid. 

I don't care what number is on the sole of the club. I only care about what club corresponds to what distance. So my question to the OP is why were you looking at buying clubs?
- more distance?
- more forgiveness?
- money burning a hole in your pocket?
		
Click to expand...

More distance? That would be nice, but it's not the primary objective.
More forgiveness? Definitely. I'd like my mis-hits to result in less dispersion of distance and direction.
Money burning a hole in your pocket? Actually, yes! Not a great deal of it but I did get Â£100 from my sister-in-law as a birthday present (in 2014!) for the purpose of helping me buy new clubs.


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			Has anyone actually read murph's post? The number is determined by head weight. The loft question is also irrelevant. As someone else pointed out they have to crank the lofts to counteract the fact they are easier to launch. Otherwise we'd all be whacking OUR PW up our nostrils.

The crux of the issue is WHY are you changing clubs? I just bought some new irons and wedges. Why? Because I wasn't sure my current set were the right fit for me. Turns out I was right. They were too upright, too long and the shafts were too stiff. 

What did I want from my new clubs? Consistent yardage gaps, improved feedback and ideally no loss of distance. To achieve that my lofts 5 - LW now go 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 45, 50, 54, 58. I had the 5 iron strengthened by one degree as part of the fitting process and I'm looking to put in an 18 & 21 hybrid. 

I don't care what number is on the sole of the club. I only care about what club corresponds to what distance. So my question to the OP is why were you looking at buying clubs?
- more distance?
- more forgiveness?
- money burning a hole in your pocket?
		
Click to expand...

what if you hoped for more distance, you hit the 7 iron further than your current 6 iron... only to find once you bought the clubs that the reason was the new 7 iron was stronger than your old 6 iron?


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## BTatHome (Feb 17, 2016)

Feels a bit like Groundhog Day .... just wait until delc sees this thread


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			what if you hoped for more distance, you hit the 7 iron further than your current 6 iron... only to find once you bought the clubs that the reason was the new 7 iron was stronger than your old 6 iron?
		
Click to expand...

But what if the loft is irrelevant. What if hitting the new 7 iron is as easy to hit as your current 7 iron and easier than your current 6 iron? What if you can hit the 5 iron miles better than you could hit the 4 iron from your current set even though they had the same loft? Surely that's a benefit? 

The majority of the club's with strong lofts are game improver irons. The aim is to maximise forgiveness. So if I can hit an old money six iron as well as an old money 7 iron the club's have done their job? Haven't they? 

At some point in every golfers bag there will come a point when they have to put a partial swing on a shot. If you aren't good at partial shots you try and avoid them by managing your way around the course.

I think it's harsh to criticise manufacturers who are trying to make this crazy difficult game easier for us.


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			More distance? That would be nice, but it's not the primary objective.
More forgiveness? Definitely. I'd like my mis-hits to result in less dispersion of distance and direction.
Money burning a hole in your pocket? Actually, yes! Not a great deal of it but I did get Â£100 from my sister-in-law as a birthday present (in 2014!) for the purpose of helping me buy new clubs.
		
Click to expand...

So ignoring the loft issue did the club's you tried give you better dispersion and more forgiveness? The 6/7 iron debate in that context is a red herring...


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you took the time to research everything but the lofts...
		
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Correct, I researched the things I knew were variables, not the thing I didn't know might be a variable.


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			But what if the loft is irrelevant. What if hitting the new 7 iron is as easy to hit as your current 7 iron and easier than your current 6 iron? What if you can hit the 5 iron miles better than you could hit the 4 iron from your current set even though they had the same loft? Surely that's a benefit? 

The majority of the club's with strong lofts are game improver irons. The aim is to maximise forgiveness. So if I can hit an old money six iron as well as an old money 7 iron the club's have done their job? Haven't they? 

At some point in every golfers bag there will come a point when they have to put a partial swing on a shot. If you aren't good at partial shots you try and avoid them by managing your way around the course.

I think it's harsh to criticise manufacturers who are trying to make this crazy difficult game easier for us.
		
Click to expand...

but what if its not?  you will be thinking you have gained some distance, which is exactly what happened to the guy i know. 

 He doesn't read golf mags or pay any attention to golf gear as such, his woods are 15 years old at least, we have a lot of the older members like this some couldn't even tell you what make their clubs are


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			So ignoring the loft issue did the club's you tried give you better dispersion and more forgiveness? The 6/7 iron debate in that context is a red herring...
		
Click to expand...

I think so but I couldn't be absolutely sure. I was given 40 balls, and I had my club plus two others to try, so roughly 13 balls per club. It seems quite a small sample to work with (had I only the one club to try it would have been 20 balls, I was given two 20-ball tickets because I had two clubs to try).


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## jpjeffery (Feb 17, 2016)

BTatHome said:



			Feels a bit like Groundhog Day .... just wait until delc sees this thread 

Click to expand...

Hmm, this is the second time someone has said this about Delc. Who is this Delc?


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2016)

I can fully sympathise with the OP, I know plenty of chap's who would and do think the numbering on the sole is relative make to make.


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2016)

When did the penny finally drop?

It's the worst kept secret in golf as there is 1000s of articles and lofts are printed in every review.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			Hmm, this is the second time someone has said this about Delc. Who is this Delc?


Click to expand...

Someone you can have a nice long discussion about this topic with, and then have it again 2 weeks later and repeat ad infinitum.


Doesn't matter what the lofts are or the numbers on the bottom. Most important thing is knowing what ever clubs you have and which to pull that will allow you to try and make the shot you have to hit.


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## delc (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I tried out a set of clubs yesterday, or rather a "7" iron from that set, along with my current 7 iron.

I found I was hitting the new club 10-15 yards further. Nice one!

Nice, except for the reason I used the quote marks around the '7' in my first sentence. The reason being the new "7" iron was not just longer, but had a stronger angle to it. In other words it was more like my 6 iron! How the heck am I meant to compare that!? What is the point of buying new clubs when I'm being tricked like this?
		
Click to expand...

I have being trying to make people aware of this con trick for some time.  If you have a club stamped as a 7-iron, but with the length, loft and lie angle of a 6 or even a 5 iron, of course it will go further!  Note that you are normally given a 7-iron test club, so manufacturers try to make it as long hitting as possible and then try to fit the other clubs around this as best they can. This can lead to some big gaps between the short irons, but not much difference between the long irons. Hence the need for gap wedges and hybrids, so they can sell you even more clubs! In the old days you could just buy a set of irons 3-PW and this would cover the entire range of distances with no significant gaps. Progress?  I think not!  :angry:


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			When did the penny finally drop?

It's the worst kept secret in golf as there is 1000s of articles and lofts are printed in every review.
		
Click to expand...


Not every who plays golf wants to spend money on the glossy advertising material called magazines or even the internet.


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Not every who plays golf wants to spend money on the glossy advertising material called magazines or even the internet.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the manufacturers should hire someone to go out knocking on doors and force feeding information to these people. We surely can't expect them to do some basic research can we?


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe the manufacturers should hire someone to go out knocking on doors and force feeding information to these people. We surely can't expect them to do some basic research can we?
		
Click to expand...

Now you're being stupid
I don't care if someone researches anything or not. However I know older gents who aren't aware of the manufacturers little ways, play golf very regularly and who buys clubs on how they feel and the results given.
If there are playing pro's who don't know the rules why is an assumption that Joe Public will know of the club manufacturers little ways?


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			but what if its not?  you will be thinking you have gained some distance, which is exactly what happened to the guy i know. 

 He doesn't read golf mags or pay any attention to golf gear as such, his woods are 15 years old at least, we have a lot of the older members like this some couldn't even tell you what make their clubs are
		
Click to expand...

I'm confused. He tried a 7 iron which went further than his current 7 iron but not as far as his current 6 iron which was a similar loft? So he ended up with a set of clubs that iron for iron were longer but left a gap at the bottom of the bag? 

I still don't understand the problem. Why did he get fitted? Did he look for distance ahead if dispersion or did he buy cast and miss the feel of forged?


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			I'm confused. He tried a 7 iron which went further than his current 7 iron but not as far as his current 6 iron which was a similar loft? So he ended up with a set of clubs that iron for iron were longer but left a gap at the bottom of the bag? 

I still don't understand the problem. Why did he get fitted? Did he look for distance ahead if dispersion or did he buy cast and miss the feel of forged?
		
Click to expand...

but he could just hit his 6 iron and saved Â£500


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I think so but I couldn't be absolutely sure. I was given 40 balls, and I had my club plus two others to try, so roughly 13 balls per club. It seems quite a small sample to work with (had I only the one club to try it would have been 20 balls, I was given two 20-ball tickets because I had two clubs to try).
		
Click to expand...

I'd go back then and maybe try a few more. You absolutely need to be comfortable with your purchase but rather than worries about lofts being cranked see how comfortable you are hitting the 7 iron and if you are getting more forgiveness and better dispersion. Then see if you can try the top iron you will buy so if you are buying 5-PW try and get a hit with the 5 iron. If you can nail the longest iron you are onto a winner. 

Then think about distance gaps at both ends of your bag and what you currently have. Will the new irons give you any dilemmas? Loft is irrelevant just think about having a consistent set of distances through your bag and happy shopping. Buying new kit should always be an enjoyable experience


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			but he could just hit his 6 iron and saved Â£500
		
Click to expand...

Then he was buying new clubs for the wrong reason. Unless of course the set came with a 4 iron that he could hit as well as his current 4 iron but the new one went further. ..


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			Then he was buying new clubs for the wrong reason. Unless of course the set came with a 4 iron that he could hit as well as his current 4 iron but the new one went further. ..
		
Click to expand...

well he bought them because he was under the impression he hit them further, all he was doing was hitting one club more, the 4 iron was stronger than the 3 iron that came with the set, he had already dropped that for a 20 deg hybrid, so then had a 4 iron the same loft then had to buy a gap wedge to fill the distance gap at the top... well he didn't he just went back to his old clubs.


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## pokerjoke (Feb 17, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I tried out a set of clubs yesterday, or rather a "7" iron from that set, along with my current 7 iron.

I found I was hitting the new club 10-15 yards further. Nice one!

Nice, except for the reason I used the quote marks around the '7' in my first sentence. The reason being the new "7" iron was not just longer, but had a stronger angle to it. In other words it was more like my 6 iron! How the heck am I meant to compare that!? What is the point of buying new clubs when I'm being tricked like this?
		
Click to expand...

When did you actually find out the lofts were stronger?


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Now you're being stupid
I don't care if someone researches anything or not. However I know older gents who aren't aware of the manufacturers little ways, play golf very regularly and who buys clubs on how they feel and the results given.
If there are playing pro's who don't know the rules why is an assumption that Joe Public will know of the club manufacturers little ways?
		
Click to expand...

 Apologies. I forgot the smilie on that post. However...........

No one is forcing anyone to spend any money. If you buy a set based on a couple of hits at a range then you get what you deserve. I don't see too many people complaining that they bought a car that got much better MPG but were then surprised that it was much smaller. Loft is just one aspect of any clubhead. Concentrating all your focus on this is ignoring every other factor. We appear to be asking manufacturers to legislate for ignorance.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2016)

delc said:



			I have being trying to make people aware of this con trick for some time.  If you have a club stamped as a 7-iron, but with the length, loft and lie angle of a 6 or even a 5 iron, of course it will go further!  Note that you are normally given a 7-iron test club, so manufacturers try to make it as long hitting as possible and then try to fit the other clubs around this as best they can. This can lead to some big gaps between the short irons, but not much difference between the long irons. Hence the need for gap wedges and hybrids, so they can sell you even more clubs! In the old days you could just buy a set of irons 3-PW and this would cover the entire range of distances with no significant gaps. Progress?  I think not!  :angry:
		
Click to expand...

Delc.  Read post #67. People being the way they are they will buy the set with the 7 iron that goes furthest,  just like they will buy the 20 megapixel camera when the 10 megapixel one takes better pictures. And there are good reasons why lofts can &  need to be cranked.  Perhaps the lofts of clubs could be standardised,  but it would need to be based on current lofts,  not those of 50 years ago.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2016)

bluewolf said:



 Apologies. I forgot the smilie on that post. However...........

No one is forcing anyone to spend any money. If you buy a set based on a couple of hits at a range then you get what you deserve. I don't see too many people complaining that they bought a car that got much better MPG but were then surprised that it was much smaller. Loft is just one aspect of any clubhead. Concentrating all your focus on this is ignoring every other factor. We appear to be asking manufacturers to legislate for ignorance.
		
Click to expand...


I see your point, but I would counter that with can we really expect your average public person who plays for fun to know the intricasies of the smoke and mirrors the eqipment manufacturers produce, when a tour level pro doesn't fully know the rules of his living?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 17, 2016)

I won't buy any club these days without trying on a monitor. Lofts don't bother me but it's how they perform. I'm aware lofts are cranked these days but it's about how well I use them. Simple as that for me


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			well he bought them because he was under the impression he hit them further, all he was doing was hitting one club more, the 4 iron was stronger than the 3 iron that came with the set, he had already dropped that for a 20 deg hybrid, so then had a 4 iron the same loft then had to buy a gap wedge to fill the distance gap at the top... well he didn't he just went back to his old clubs.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I'm still baffled. He bought a new set of clubs because he was hitting the 7 iron further. But was then surprised that the new 4 iron went as far as his old 3 iron which had already been replaced by a hybrid and was stunned to see that his PW went further creating the need for a gap wedge. Your mate doesn't do logic well by the sounds of it


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## delc (Feb 17, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Delc.  Read post #67. People being the way they are they will buy the set with the 7 iron that goes furthest,  just like they will buy the 20 megapixel camera when the 10 megapixel one takes better pictures. And there are good reasons why lofts can &  need to be cranked.  Perhaps the lofts of clubs could be standardised,  but it would need to be based on current lofts,  not those of 50 years ago.
		
Click to expand...

At least 50 years ago you had about 4 degrees of loft difference between numbered clubs, so you knew what you were buying and you didn't need to buy addition gap wedges etc. With my previous set of Ping i15's I could hit my 4-iron quite well, but was less successful with the 4-iron in my new TM Speedblades. I didn't understand this until I found out its loft was only 20 degrees, compared with 24 degrees for the Ping. The TM 4-iron actually had less loft than the 3 iron in a set of Titleist irons I owned in the 1980's, which was 21 degrees. I could just about hit reasonable shots with that!  :angry:

Basically the TM 4-iron was a waste of money. If had realised that the lofts in the set were so cranked, I wouldn't have bought them.


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2016)

delc said:



			At least 50 years ago you had about 4 degrees of loft difference between numbered clubs, so you knew what you were buying and you didn't need to buy addition gap wedges etc. With my previous set of Ping i15's I could hit my 4-iron quite well, but was less successful with the 4-iron in my new TM Speedblades. I didn't understand this until I found out its loft was only 20 degrees, compared with 24 degrees for the Ping. The TM 4-iron actually had less loft than the 3 iron in a set of Titleist irons I owned in the 1980's, which was 21 degrees. I could just about hit reasonable shots with that!  :angry:
		
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You were also 30 years younger and presumably swung faster.


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## delc (Feb 17, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			You were also 30 years younger and presumably swung faster.
		
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Actually I still have those Titleist irons (they were a present from my dear late wife) and tried playing with them for a month last year. They don't really suit me any more because they have stiff shafts and hard perished grips, but I could still hit good shots with them, including the 3-iron.


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## Sweep (Feb 17, 2016)

OK, so we have established that the OP has not done a degree course at Oxford on buying golf clubs. Like the rest of the population, he has probably got better things to do ( almost certainly, if he is only just getting round to spending his 2014 birthday money ). Well, now that the forum has hung him out to dry for not being a complete geek who spends all his time in his bedroom pouring over golf mags and salivating over shineys, let's think for a minute on why modern lofts are stronger in each club. Obviously because the manufacturers want you to believe their irons eg 7 iron, go further than their competitors iron of the same spec eg 7 iron. Except it's not the same spec is it? So at best it's an attempt at tricking the customer. That and the fact that this practice makes it harder to establish which clubs are the best for him is all he was complaining about.
Now, can I get back to my monthly mag?
Phwoah! Look at the grooves on that!


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## Sweep (Feb 17, 2016)

The only reason the manufacturers put loft numbers on wedges, is because the wedge game, especially when you get up to 52 to 60+ degree is not about distance. So they don't have to try the de-lofting trick and it wouldn't work if they did.
Its interesting that a lot of posters on this thread have quite rightly made the point that the OP should be less concerned with distance anyway, and should concentrate more on dispersion. Maybe, instead of telling the customer, we should be telling the manufacturers who are so obsessed with claims of extra distance, they are prepared to try this kind of practice to convince the gullible public.


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## delc (Feb 17, 2016)

I still think that there should be an industry standard on lofts and lengths for the various numbered irons. You get degrees on woods, hybrids and wedges, so why not the irons?  Then you would know exactly what you are buying and fair comparisons would be possible again! 

BTW my elderly set of Titleist irons do have the lofts stamped on their heads as well as the numbers.


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## ruff-driver (Feb 17, 2016)

delc said:



			I still think that there should be an industry standard on lofts and lengths for the various numbered irons. You get degrees on woods, hybrids and wedges, so why not the irons?  Then you would know exactly what you are buying and fair comparisons would be possible again! 

BTW my elderly set of Titleist irons do have the lofts stamped on their heads as well as the numbers.
		
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Hear hear , 

now that we have lofts sorted , where does the industry stand on shaft flex ?  :mmm:


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			I'm sorry but I'm still baffled. He bought a new set of clubs because he was hitting the 7 iron further. But was then surprised that the new 4 iron went as far as his old 3 iron which had already been replaced by a hybrid and was stunned to see that his PW went further creating the need for a gap wedge. Your mate doesn't do logic well by the sounds of it 

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TBH i'm not sure what you are baffled by?

he got clubs he thought he hit further, when in fact he didn't in the scheme of things.


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

what ever happened to the term..... loft is your friend trotted out by TM an while ago, not for irons then??


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			what ever happened to the term..... loft is your friend trotted out by TM an while ago, not for irons then??
		
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Last time I looked into my golf bag, the woods and irons were noticeably different


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			TBH i'm not sure what you are baffled by?

he got clubs he thought he hit further, when in fact he didn't in the scheme of things.
		
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Because logic would suggest if you hit all the club's longer than your current set. And your current set is 4-PW. If you buy 4-PW in the new set you are automatically going to reduce the distance gap to your hybrid and increase the distance gap to your wedges. 

So he should have bought 5-PW and a gap wedge or stick with his old set up. Not buy a new set up that goes longer, on the basis that each club is longer and then complain that his 4 iron goes too far and the PW is too long. That makes absolutely no sense!!!


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2016)

Tiger said:



			Because logic would suggest if you hit all the club's longer than your current set. And your current set is 4-PW. If you buy 4-PW in the new set you are automatically going to reduce the distance gap to your hybrid and increase the distance gap to your wedges. 

So he should have bought 5-PW and a gap wedge or stick with his old set up. Not buy a new set up that goes longer, on the basis that each club is longer and then complain that his 4 iron goes too far and the PW is too long. That makes absolutely no sense!!!
		
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only if he knew that the 6 iron had the same  as his current 5 iron, which leads back to the OP feeling slightly misled.


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			only if he knew that the 6 iron had the same  as his current 5 iron, which leads back to the OP feeling slightly misled.
		
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The same loft is irrelevant though. He hit the 7 iron further than his current 7 iron. Same loft, stronger loft is totally irrelevant. Logic dictates that if my 7 iron goes further my other clubs will go further. The issue you said he had wasn't being 'mislead'. It was that his new 4 iron and PW went too far. Surely he could of figured that out when he was fitted


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2016)

A three series BMW is a three series. It comes with various engine sizes, but remains a three series. You buy one, but the performance can vary. It's still a three series. 


A seven iron is a weight. Not a loft, not a distance, not a length of shaft. There is no guarantee of performance. It is what it is, within limits, but the performance can vary. You buy the one you want. The one that fits the bill. 

The only limitations are the ones you put on it.


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			A three series BMW is a three series. It comes with various engine sizes, but remains a three series. You buy one, but the performance can vary. It's still a three series. 


A seven iron is a weight. Not a loft, not a distance, not a length of shaft. There is no guarantee of performance. It is what it is, within limits, but the performance can vary. You buy the one you want. The one that fits the bill. 

The only limitations are the ones you put on it.
		
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:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			A three series BMW is a three series. It comes with various engine sizes, but remains a three series. You buy one, but the performance can vary. It's still a three series. 


A seven iron is a weight. Not a loft, not a distance, not a length of shaft. There is no guarantee of performance. It is what it is, within limits, but the performance can vary. You buy the one you want. The one that fits the bill. 

The only limitations are the ones you put on it.
		
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Im hoping that saying it again will help sink it in for a few people :thup:


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

Where did this 7iron is a weight thing come from? I have never heard this before. Ever. And I read the forum a lot and know that manufacturers try to con us with stronger lofts. So if I've never heard this I'd say it's a safe bet that most others haven't too. 

Not doubting it's validity, just never heard it before, is it accurate?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm still unsure when it was decided that manufacturers are trying to "con" people 

It must be the worst con in the world cause most people have the ability to use the Internet to check out the specifics of each model , ask their pro , check out magazines , read reviews , can see the difference - the manufacturers aren't trying to his anything from people so how are they conning people


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 17, 2016)

TheJezster said:



			Where did this 7iron is a weight thing come from? I have never heard this before. Ever. And I read the forum a lot and know that manufacturers try to con us with stronger lofts. So if I've never heard this I'd say it's a safe bet that most others haven't too. 

Not doubting it's validity, just never heard it before, is it accurate?
		
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Nope not just you.

To be honest this thing about manufacturers ever putting loft on their clubs is never going to happen across the board. There will certainly never be an industry "standard". The information is out there and it's down to an individual whether they buy off the shelf, either before or after looking at lofts, go for a C/F and get everything spec'd out or simply by and play with whatever takes your fancy.


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

3i: 240g
4i: 247g
5i: 254g
6i: 261g
7i: 268g
8i: 275g
9i: 282g
PW: 289g


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm still unsure when it was decided that manufacturers are trying to "con" people 

It must be the worst con in the world cause most people have the ability to use the Internet to check out the specifics of each model , ask their pro , check out magazines , read reviews , can see the difference - the manufacturers aren't trying to his anything from people so how are they conning people
		
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Phil, you are entitled to your view and I'm not trying to change it. Try to give the same courtesy back. 
Food which is Low in fat! To mask a horribly high sugar count or something else. These are all examples of companies trying to con people. Yes people can research, as they can with food products, doesn't mean it's right tho does it? 
It's a good debate and one which I'm firmly in the camp of I think it would be better for the entire industry if it were regulated, but as I said before I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if it doesn't become do. Now back to my actual question, where does this 'weight' of the club head come from? Is this real or made up?


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## Region3 (Feb 17, 2016)

I'd rather learn a new distance for my 7 iron than try to remember how many degrees each club is supposed to be.


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I'd rather learn a new distance for my 7 iron than try to remember how many degrees I each club is supposed to be.
		
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As would most people who buy new clubs I'd guess? But it would be nice to be able to compare it to your current set by looking at that little number at the bottom of the club during your demo wouldn't it? After all it's there already, might as well have a good use for it &#128521;


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2016)

TheJezster said:



			Phil, you are entitled to your view and I'm not trying to change it. Try to give the same courtesy back. 
Food which is Low in fat! To mask a horribly high sugar count or something else. These are all examples of companies trying to con people. Yes people can research, as they can with food products, doesn't mean it's right tho does it? 
It's a good debate and one which I'm firmly in the camp of I think it would be better for the entire industry if it were regulated, but as I said before I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if it doesn't become do. Now back to my actual question, where does this 'weight' of the club head come from? Is this real or made up?
		
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But why would it be better regulated ? 

Forcing manufacturers to be the same removes healthy competition 

A lot of lofts are stronger for some irons to counter various shafts - there is so many great variables out there giving people so much choice - it's then up to people to research their choice because that's common sense for anyone forking out a good smack of money. 

The companies are providing a product - it's how they manufacture their club - and all that should matter to people if how they perform with the clubs. 

There is no sane reason to have all the clubs universal


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nope not just you.

To be honest this thing about manufacturers ever putting loft on their clubs is never going to happen across the board. There will certainly never be an industry "standard". The information is out there and it's down to an individual whether they buy off the shelf, either before or after looking at lofts, go for a C/F and get everything spec'd out or simply by and play with whatever takes your fancy.
		
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You could well be right, and personally I think it's a shame but hey ho. I know when I got fitted for mine by Cleveland (thanks GM) I couldn't care about lofts I just cared what I hit it like. That being said I'm not sure I knew that some manufacturers jacked their lofts up so would have probably assumed everyone was the same. The fitting was awesome tho and if I next get a set I'll definitely go through that process again. I still might get some 588 wedges but my tommy armour sw is a memento from my US road trip that I don't want to let go of...


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## Tiger (Feb 17, 2016)

Let's just say for arguments sake all manufacturers produce clubs of the exact same specification. I play Brand X irons and I go to try Brand Y. Wow Brand Y goes 10 yards further and they are easier to hit. I'm going to buy brand Y. 

Scenario 2 same scenario but Brand Ys loft is 2 degrees stronger. Am I now not going to buy brand Y because the loft is stronger?!?!?


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## TheJezster (Feb 17, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But why would it be better regulated ? 

Forcing manufacturers to be the same removes healthy competition 

A lot of lofts are stronger for some irons to counter various shafts - there is so many great variables out there giving people so much choice - it's then up to people to research their choice because that's common sense for anyone forking out a good smack of money. 

The companies are providing a product - it's how they manufacture their club - and all that should matter to people if how they perform with the clubs. 

There is no sane reason to have all the clubs universal
		
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I won't get embroiled in an argument with you, but I will say one thing. In YOUR opinion. And calling someone else's side of a debate "insane" is not a smart way to play your hand, because that's what you just did.
I can't debate like that, there will be no sensible outcome, it will result in name calling and shouting. Good luck with the thread, it has been an interesting one...


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 17, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			A three series BMW is a three series. It comes with various engine sizes, but remains a three series. You buy one, but the performance can vary. It's still a three series. 


*A seven iron is a weight*. Not a loft, not a distance, not a length of shaft. There is no guarantee of performance. It is what it is, within limits, but the performance can vary. You buy the one you want. The one that fits the bill. 

The only limitations are the ones you put on it.
		
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It's only weight because most 7 irons are roughly the same length and to give an acceptable swingweight the weight of the club has to go up down as the number of the club does the same. I would say that the number of the club is decided mainly by its length and the weight it needs to be is dictated by the length.


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## delc (Feb 17, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			A three series BMW is a three series. It comes with various engine sizes, but remains a three series. You buy one, but the performance can vary. It's still a three series. 


A seven iron is a weight. Not a loft, not a distance, not a length of shaft. There is no guarantee of performance. It is what it is, within limits, but the performance can vary. You buy the one you want. The one that fits the bill. 

The only limitations are the ones you put on it.
		
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A 7-iron has a certain head weight to give the correct swing weight for the length of shaft, not because it is an intrinsic value in itself!


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## Thustwest (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm finding some of this hard to believe . .  .

The OP has been a forum member since 2012, made 144 posts and has never heard of Delc? 

Seriously though, I thought everyone knew the numbers on the bottom were just to distinguish one club in your bag from another. The one with a 7 will generally go a little further than the one with an 8. Where has it ever been written that the lofts have to be the same. Far from the manufacturers conning us, they actually spend millions to tell us how different their new clubs are to the old ones / competitors ones etc.

It's been said before but how could it possibly matter if the lofts are stronger or weaker from set to set? As long as the gaps for each set are consistent?


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## delc (Feb 17, 2016)

Sweep said:



			The only reason the manufacturers put loft numbers on wedges, is because the wedge game, especially when you get up to 52 to 60+ degree is not about distance. So they don't have to try the de-lofting trick and it wouldn't work if they did.
Its interesting that a lot of posters on this thread have quite rightly made the point that the OP should be less concerned with distance anyway, and should concentrate more on dispersion. Maybe, instead of telling the customer, we should be telling the manufacturers who are so obsessed with claims of extra distance, they are prepared to try this kind of practice to convince the gullible public.
		
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You talk about distance and dispersion, but isn't gapping between clubs also an important consideration? In a traditional set of irons for a good club golfer, a PW would hit the ball about 100-110 yards, and each club below that would add 10-12 yards. So you never had that big a gap between clubs. Some of my younger and fitter friends can hit a modern 44 degree PW at least 150 yards, as they should be able to do as it's about the same spec as an old time 8 iron, so what do you do for shorter shots? Sand Wedges have remained at 54-56 degrees loft because they need that to fulfill their primary purpose of hitting balls out of bunkers. So you end up with a 10-12 degree difference between the SW and the PW, which is probably 50-60 yards for said golfers. Even a Gap Wedge doesn't totally fill that gap. I have a 20 yard difference between my TM 8 and 7 irons, but even when I can get the ball airborne with my 4 iron, it goes less distance than my 5 iron!


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## jpjeffery (Feb 18, 2016)

Sweep said:



			OK, so we have established that the OP has not done a degree course at Oxford on buying golf clubs. Like the rest of the population, he has probably got better things to do ( almost certainly, if he is only just getting round to spending his 2014 birthday money ). Well, now that the forum has hung him out to dry for not being a complete geek who spends all his time in his bedroom pouring over golf mags and salivating over shineys, let's think for a minute on why modern lofts are stronger in each club. Obviously because the manufacturers want you to believe their irons eg 7 iron, go further than their competitors iron of the same spec eg 7 iron. Except it's not the same spec is it? So at best it's an attempt at tricking the customer. That and the fact that this practice makes it harder to establish which clubs are the best for him is all he was complaining about.
Now, can I get back to my monthly mag?
Phwoah! Look at the grooves on that!
		
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Brilliant. As you have rightly surmised, I am not a golf geek, I just want some better clubs (I think!)


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## jpjeffery (Feb 18, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			When did you actually find out the lofts were stronger?
		
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When I was at the American Golf range and I compared the Benross 7i with my own 7i. The Benross club was also about 1/4" longer.


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			When I was at the American Golf range and I compared the Benross 7i with my own 7i. The Benross club was also about 1/4" longer.
		
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So the guy at American golf told you about the lofts.   that is what he should have done. 

Longer clubs and stronger lofts is not a new phenomenon.  It has been gradually happening for decades. 

I have clubs in my dads garage which have even weaker lofts than todays blades, shorter shafts and even thinner shafts. 


You can only really hit as well as your actual strike and club speed will allow. Manufactures have tight tolerances to work within to keep clubs legal. What they are trying to do is fine tune these things such as loft, cog, face thickness, length of shaft etc to make it as easy as possible for the player to launch the ball, provide a level of forgiveness and ultimately good length.


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm still unsure when it was decided that manufacturers are trying to "con" people
		
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Why did they crank the lofts then?


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2016)

Seriously who's taking their 48" TV down to currys for a comparison on a new 48" model just because they're the same size screen! And how many research & read the entire specs of the new TV prior to purchase! 

It just doesn't happen in the mass market but the TV in the shop will be displayed with a ton of marketing and optimum conditions such as black walls, effective lighting etc and no ones up in arms about it, its just marketing. That new TV wont be as good once you get it home because most of us don't decorate/light our homes to maximum its performance

We've some on the thread who think that the modern manufacture & retail of irons is a con-trick and others who think its all the buyers fault for not being astute enough  

Is anyone likely to move their opinion? I guess not its the internet after all



Yes, marketing departments will put their products in the most favourable light & generally within the rules 
No, every buyer does not research the complete specs on every purchaser they make (inc non-golf purchases) & even buy stuff untried

Surely no one is surprised by either of the above two statements 

Maybe the ideal scenario falls somewhere between the poles i.e instead of a forlorn attempt to standardise loft on any iron, the loft should be stamped on the club so the buyer doesn't have to research it... 

But would this actually make any difference to the majority. Lets assume for a moment it was stamped on and I'm thinking of hybrids/fairways & drivers here, almost without fail every one has the loft on the head plus the weight in grams of the shaft, but how many buyers are actually using the shaft weight data to compare to their existing club or is it only the minority of ultra keen or CF buyers who even look at it 

Most will buy a model of driver with stock shaft and it'll be based on how they hit it on a brief test against other new sticks and maybe their existing club, and while the loft may be the same as their current kit it might be the only similarity between the two, so is loft still a fair measure for making comparisons on a golf club (& I mean fair to both the buyer and retailer)

I read that the only purpose of irons is to fill the distance gap between the shortest wood and longest wedge (ideally at evenly spaced increments) and that seems fairly logical 

If the above is true why do golfers replacing their irons lean towards buying the one that travels furthest from the current. Isn't that the last club you'd choose unless you're replacing top & bottom clubs too (then it doesn't matter how far it goes in comparison) Surely the test hits should be with the longest iron 


Ideally retailers shouldn't put so much effort into excluding the loft data at POS, it just makes them seem guilty and consumers should be a little less focused on loft on its own when comparing kit, it just makes them seem ill-informed


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## BTatHome (Feb 18, 2016)

If manufacturers are trying to con people then they must be very very bad at doing it, as if you select a major manufacturer (I say major only because they have more models to compare) then you'll find almost all the models have diffentent specs of loft,length.

They sell different models with different characteristics and many of them are speced according to the market place they are selling to, or even within their own portfolio.

Obvious solution is get fit for your irons, then you can have whatever loft , length you want ... and as a byproduct you'll get a set that works for you.


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## Smiffy (Feb 18, 2016)

Prior to getting my new TM's I used to hit a 7 iron on the 9th at Blackmoor.
I now hit an 8 iron. 
I can also hit my new 4 iron sweet as a nut, better than I have ever hit a 4 iron before.
Why on earth should I feel conned????


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## Tiger (Feb 18, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Prior to getting my new TM's I used to hit a 7 iron on the 9th at Blackmoor.
I now hit an 8 iron. 
I can also hit my new 4 iron sweet as a nut, better than I have ever hit a 4 iron before.
Why on earth should I feel conned????
		
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:thup: I've given up mate people have got a bee in their bonnet and are refusing to see the bigger picture.  More forgiving easier to hit clubs. My hybrids, irons and wedges are tools to get me as close to the pin as possible from 200 yards and in. My woods are to get me as far down the fairway aa I need to be. If I'm hitting driver that's where I care about distance. Irons and wedges are precision tools...


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## TheJezster (Feb 18, 2016)

I read this, this morning.  It's quite an interesting article,  probably worth a read in conjunction with this thread.  It was written around 16 years ago but there is a 2010 addendum at the end. It won't make anyone change their mind but it was interesting to read http://www.leaderboard.com/loftinfo.htm


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Why did they crank the lofts then?
		
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Don't know and not bothered 

Only thing that matters IMO is how far I hit each club and I can work things out from there - to me it's as simple as that


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## bluewolf (Feb 18, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Why did they crank the lofts then?
		
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They're not all cranked. Another question would be - Why do they crank the lofts on SGI and GI clubs, but tend to stay pretty static in the "Players" irons?

Note - I do appreciate that some players irons have slightly cranked lofts, but the trend is that the more helpful the iron is designed to be, the more likely it is that the lofts will be cranked.

edit - just checked and my PW is 47*. The GI set from the same range is 44*.


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

TheJezster said:



			I read this, this morning.  It's quite an interesting article,  probably worth a read in conjunction with this thread.  It was written around 16 years ago but there is a 2010 addendum at the end. It won't make anyone change their mind but it was interesting to read http://www.leaderboard.com/loftinfo.htm

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Please read this link because it covers the subjects of loft creep and bundling, so that manufacturers can sell you clubs you can't use and require you buy extra clubs that are useful, such as gap wedges.  It is worth noting from the table of lofts that my 20 degree TM 4 iron is pretty much the same spec as a 1985 2 iron, so no wonder I can't hit it!


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2016)

Tiger said:



			The same loft is irrelevant though. He hit the 7 iron further than his current 7 iron. Same loft, stronger loft is totally irrelevant. Logic dictates that if my 7 iron goes further my other clubs will go further. The issue you said he had wasn't being 'mislead'. It was that his new 4 iron and PW went too far. Surely he could of figured that out when he was fitted
		
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who said he got fitted... he went to try some clubs like a lot do and just hit one iron which was a 7, he would have compared his with this and that why he got them. he didn't find out the lofts were cranked until some one in our roll up told him some time later.

the result of this he felt misled, his opinion and i see where he and the Op are coming from. we are entitled to our opinion.


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2016)

didn't TM on release of the Rocketballz  say that these clubs went further than other OEM and a guarantee that you would hit their 7 iron further... I'm sure i remember that at the time??


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## bluewolf (Feb 18, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			who said he got fitted... he went to try some clubs like a lot do and just hit one iron which was a 7, he would have compared his with this and that why he got them. he didn't find out the lofts were cranked until some one in our roll up told him some time later.

the result of this he felt misled, his opinion and i see where he and the Op are coming from. we are entitled to our opinion.
		
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Doesn't make them right though.....


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 18, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Prior to getting my new TM's I used to hit a 7 iron on the 9th at Blackmoor.
I now hit an 8 iron. 
I can also hit my new 4 iron sweet as a nut, better than I have ever hit a 4 iron before.
Why on earth should I feel conned????
		
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Spot on! Same experience here.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2016)

You're still conveniently forgetting the main reason for strengthened lofts...
As Bluewolf and others have said, this strengthening is mainly on beginners, SGI and GI irons. It does happen on players irons too but to a smaller extent.
Designers have played with the club head to make it easier to get the ball in the air. To make it EASIER to get the ball IN THE AIR..
This is often something that people who use these types of irons need.
The by-product is increased distance which, as well as ease of use, is easy to sell.
Distance is not the reason lofts are lowered - its in response yto the club head tech.
Sure, we could go back 30 years but what would be the point. The tech is here, it ain't going away any time soon ...
They've incorporated some of the GI tech into players irons to make them easier to launch.
Easier to launch = higher flight = lower lofts to compensate = .ore distance..
You see, its a by-product.
Get used to it.
If you don't like it then go to someone like Orka and get truly custom fit for lofts...
Although today's 4 iron is like a 3 or even a 2 is only true in loft
Its easier to get the ball in the air with a modern 4 than it was with an old 3 or 2..
The fact that you can't points to a flaw in your technique rather than a flaw in the club design.

Many sets these days can be purchased as 5-GW rather than 4-PW....
Maybe you should check these out........


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## Tiger (Feb 18, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			who said he got fitted... he went to try some clubs like a lot do and just hit one iron which was a 7, he would have compared his with this and that why he got them. he didn't find out the lofts were cranked until some one in our roll up told him some time later.

the result of this he felt misled, his opinion and i see where he and the Op are coming from. we are entitled to our opinion.
		
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Semantics aside he bought a set of clubs based on the fact the 7 iron went further. He then sold that set and went back to his old clubs. Did he 
a) sell the new clubs because he thought he was misled
b) sell the club's because the 4I was longer than his current 4I and the gap from his PW to his other wedges was too big?


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

Thustwest said:



			I'm finding some of this hard to believe . .  .

The OP has been a forum member since 2012, made 144 posts and has never heard of Delc? 

Seriously though, I thought everyone knew the numbers on the bottom were just to distinguish one club in your bag from another. The one with a 7 will generally go a little further than the one with an 8. Where has it ever been written that the lofts have to be the same. Far from the manufacturers conning us, they actually spend millions to tell us how different their new clubs are to the old ones / competitors ones etc.

It's been said before but how could it possibly matter if the lofts are stronger or weaker from set to set? As long as the gaps for each set are consistent?
		
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me likey


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## Tiger (Feb 18, 2016)

Imurg said:



			You're still conveniently forgetting the main reason for strengthened lofts...
As Bluewolf and others have said, this strengthening is mainly on beginners, SGI and GI irons. It does happen on players irons too but to a smaller extent.
Designers have played with the club head to make it easier to get the ball in the air. To make it EASIER to get the ball IN THE AIR..
This is often something that people who use these types of irons need.
		
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:thup:


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			didn't TM on release of the Rocketballz  say that these clubs went further than other OEM and a guarantee that you would hit their 7 iron further... I'm sure i remember that at the time??
		
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"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom. He is so impressed that he buys the whole set. When he gets to actually playing with them, he finds that all his yardages have gone to pot, his short game is rubbish and he can't hit the longest iron he bought. He goes back to the retailer to buy a gap wedge to get his short game back. Thus he has been sold two unnecessary clubs.  Get the picture?


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2016)

Tiger said:



			Semantics aside he bought a set of clubs based on the fact the 7 iron went further. He then sold that set and went back to his old clubs. Did he 
a) sell the new clubs because he thought he was misled
b) sell the club's because the 4I was longer than his current 4I and the gap from his PW to his other wedges was too big?
		
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i think he just chucked them in the shed, when he has settled on some new irons he is going to trade the TM in.. the MP60 are, well lets just say they have seen better days, he play's 5 or 6 times a week and has done since getting them which i think would have been 2008. as i said before he got them as he thought he had gained some distance compared to his old clubs. he hadn't. lets face it most would love some extra distance.. i know i would.


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## bluewolf (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom. He is so impressed that he buys the whole set. When he gets to actually playing with them, he finds that all his yardages have gone to pot, his short game is rubbish and he can't hit the longest iron he bought. He goes back to the retailer to buy a gap wedge to get his short game back. Thus he has been sold two unnecessary clubs.  Get the picture?
		
Click to expand...

I'm beginning to, yes............


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom. He is so impressed that he buys the whole set. When he gets to actually playing with them, he finds that all his yardages have gone to pot, his short game is rubbish and he can't hit the longest iron he bought. He goes back to the retailer to buy a gap wedge to get his short game back. Thus he has been sold two unnecessary clubs.  Get the picture?
		
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you obviously have not read any of what i have posted on this tread, this is what ive been saying, apart from going back to get the extra wedge, the guy i know just went back to his old clubs:rofl::rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom. He is so impressed that he buys the whole set. When he gets to actually playing with them, he finds that all his yardages have gone to pot, his short game is rubbish and he can't hit the longest iron he bought. He goes back to the retailer to buy a gap wedge to get his short game back. Thus he has been sold two unnecessary clubs.  Get the picture?
		
Click to expand...

Punter says to golf pro - so what's the loft on this 7 iron as it seems to go a bit further than mine 

Golf pro - well these new clubs have lofts a bit stronger to help the higher HC get the ball in the air quicker 

Punter - does that cause any issues 

Pro - well the sets now sell as 5-GW so you would need to get a SW

Punter - excellent I'll take them and enjoy my new found confidence on the golf course 



Ps - what are these "unnecessary" golf clubs you mention Delc


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## BTatHome (Feb 18, 2016)

Deli, surely if the 7 iron went further then his yardages were bound to have changed .... how could it not be the case.

Btw. Still love the fact that you can't hit a GI TM 4 iron but can hit a really old tittie 3 iron, that you had before. So only 1 degree of loft has meant you simply can't hit that club at all!


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			A 7 iron is a 7 iron because of the weight of the head. That's it. It has nothing to do with loft. That could be anything. It's not specified, and it doesn't need to be, that is left up to the manufacturer.
		
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delc said:



			"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom. He is so impressed that he buys the whole set. When he gets to actually playing with them, he finds that all his yardages have gone to pot, his short game is rubbish and he can't hit the longest iron he bought. He goes back to the retailer to buy a gap wedge to get his short game back. Thus he has been sold two unnecessary clubs.  Get the picture?
		
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So he spends years stubbornly playing with these clubs and blames them for his poor short game when you should chip with wedges that don't even come with the set.


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## Tiger (Feb 18, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			you obviously have not read any of what i have posted on this tread, this is what ive been saying, apart from going back to get the extra wedge, the guy i know just went back to his old clubs:rofl::rofl:
		
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Ah but if he'd thought it through he'd have bought the extra wedge in the first place and not bought the 4 iron


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## Smiffy (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom. He is so impressed that he buys the whole set. When he gets to actually playing with them, he finds that all his yardages have gone to pot, his short game is rubbish and he can't hit the longest iron he bought. He goes back to the retailer to buy a gap wedge to get his short game back. Thus he has been sold two unnecessary clubs.  Get the picture?
		
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Yep. Cushty isn't it


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## Stuey01 (Feb 18, 2016)

Imurg said:



			You're still conveniently forgetting the main reason for strengthened lofts...
As Bluewolf and others have said, this strengthening is mainly on beginners, SGI and GI irons. It does happen on players irons too but to a smaller extent.
Designers have played with the club head to make it easier to get the ball in the air. To make it EASIER to get the ball IN THE AIR..
This is often something that people who use these types of irons need.
The by-product is increased distance which, as well as ease of use, is easy to sell.
Distance is not the reason lofts are lowered - its in response yto the club head tech.
Sure, we could go back 30 years but what would be the point. The tech is here, it ain't going away any time soon ...
They've incorporated some of the GI tech into players irons to make them easier to launch.
Easier to launch = higher flight = lower lofts to compensate = .ore distance..
You see, its a by-product.
Get used to it.
If you don't like it then go to someone like Orka and get truly custom fit for lofts...
Although today's 4 iron is like a 3 or even a 2 is only true in loft
Its easier to get the ball in the air with a modern 4 than it was with an old 3 or 2..
The fact that you can't points to a flaw in your technique rather than a flaw in the club design.

Many sets these days can be purchased as 5-GW rather than 4-PW....
Maybe you should check these out........
		
Click to expand...

This doesn't add up for me.  If these clubs are supposed to help people who have trouble launching their irons high enough with their current, weaker lofts, then why build a high launching club then bring the lofts down to offset the advantage you just built in?

This line that they HAD to bring the lofts down is exactly the one the manufacturers want you to believe.  If there was a danger we'd all be ballooning our 7iron shots due to the high launching characteristics, then why don't the 8irons, with the loft of an old 7iron, balloon up and go nowhere?

Rick Shiels recently did an interesting test where he compared his more traditionally lofted blade style irons with the new super cranked m2 irons, and loft for loft (4iron vs 6iron if I recall correctly) they launched the same, had the same peak height and went the same distance.  Of course he has good swing speed and strike, but, shouldn't he be launching that M2 appreciably higher than the same lofted blade club? If they did what the manufacturers say they do.


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## jpjeffery (Feb 18, 2016)

Wow, 16 pages!

_"Can...open. Worms...everywhere..."_ - Chandler Bing


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## JamesR (Feb 18, 2016)

So, a company manufactures something, that something is also made by other manufacturers. In order to sell more units than those other manufacturers, they make that something more attractive to potential customers.

Be it longer, faster, bigger who cares it's all about sales. It's not whether it's better for the customer, it's about making the customer think it's better for themselves!


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## jpjeffery (Feb 18, 2016)

I've just done a little extra research on club lofts for the Benross Hotspeed 2 (these were the clubs I was considering before I actually went to the store, I can't see the ones that were in the store on the web site).

American Golf website: no mention of lofts
Golf Monthly web review (inc. video clip): no mention of lofts
Today's Golfer web review: 7i loft given
Benross web site: Couldn't find any mention of the irons set, but then they have been discontinued. Hot speed 2 hybrid page did include a table with some loft figures

What won't hep in my case is that I don't know what the lofts are on my Prosimmons clubs (which were bought as a starter set including trolley bag, for Â£150).

So yes, I could have researched the loft (and I guess I will now that I know it's a factor to consider) but I'm not sure it would have helped me much. Besides, I had no idea what clubs they had in stock at the AG store anyway.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I've just done a little extra research on club lofts for the Benross Hotspeed 2 (these were the clubs I was considering before I actually went to the store, I can't see the ones that were in the store on the web site).

American Golf website: no mention of lofts
Golf Monthly web review (inc. video clip): no mention of lofts
Today's Golfer web review: 7i loft given
Benross web site: Couldn't find any mention of the irons set, but then they have been discontinued. Hot speed 2 hybrid page did include a table with some loft figures

What won't hep in my case is that I don't know what the lofts are on my Prosimmons clubs (which were bought as a starter set including trolley bag, for Â£150).

So yes, I could have researched the loft (and I guess I will now that I know it's a factor to consider) but I'm not sure it would have helped me much. Besides, I had no idea what clubs they had in stock at the AG store anyway.
		
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How about using it as a learning experience, as they say every day's a school day. After all it is well known that people learn more from their mistakes than they do from doing everything perfectly.  And may be in years to come you may be able to make peace with the manufacturers after you have screwed them on a nightly basis, and possibly whisper into their ear 'thank you for making clubs that make the game easier to play and hopefully more enjoyable for the vast majority of golfers'.  After all manufacturers have feelings too and they don't like being used.

And then everybody can live happily ever after.  

Apart from Delc who will still be moaning about it.


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2016)

Tbf the Benross website isn't very good.  It only details one set of irons. 

You can get the compete history of titleist and Mizuno iron specifications, warts and all from decades ago on their sites.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom. He is so impressed that he buys the whole set. When he gets to actually playing with them, he finds that all his yardages have gone to pot, his short game is rubbish and he can't hit the longest iron he bought. He goes back to the retailer to buy a gap wedge to get his short game back. Thus he has been sold two unnecessary clubs.  Get the picture?
		
Click to expand...

He,  like you,  went about it the wrong way. The first iron in the bag should be the longest,  straightest you can hit consistently and if you don't try it you won't know. If this means you have a 3 iron &  3 wedges so be it but gapping shouldn't be a problem.  No matter how many wedges you carry you're going to be hitting half & three quarter shots anyway.  I can't see the need for more than 3 wedges no matter what lofts the other clubs have. Even if the first iron is,  say,  4Â° straighter than a "proper" one the gap between the others only has to be less than one degree different to allow the wedges to be whatever loft you want them to be. The fact is that long clubs are easier to hit and we should be happy about that,  not complaining.


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I've just done a little extra research on club lofts for the Benross Hotspeed 2 (these were the clubs I was considering before I actually went to the store, I can't see the ones that were in the store on the web site).

American Golf website: no mention of lofts
Golf Monthly web review (inc. video clip): no mention of lofts
Today's Golfer web review: 7i loft given
Benross web site: Couldn't find any mention of the irons set, but then they have been discontinued. Hot speed 2 hybrid page did include a table with some loft figures

What won't hep in my case is that I don't know what the lofts are on my Prosimmons clubs (which were bought as a starter set including trolley bag, for Â£150).

So yes, I could have researched the loft (and I guess I will now that I know it's a factor to consider) but I'm not sure it would have helped me much. Besides, I had no idea what clubs they had in stock at the AG store anyway.
		
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Exactly!
Even if the OP did research the lofts, it doesn't help because he doesn't know the lofts of his beginner set. He is made to believe the new clubs are ace because he is amazed at how far the 7 iron (usually the only one you are given to try) goes. End result (in the manufacturers mind) is he can't part with his money quick enough. Quite aside from it doesn't matter which club goes which distance etc etc the original post was about him feeling mislead. Well, he did feel mislead and for good reason.
As Hacker said, put it down to experience and be glad the deliberate tactic didn't work on you. As someone who IS sad enough to have a degree in golf club purchase, when I went for my fitting at Ping I told the fitter to crank the 7 iron so that I hit it 150 carry and crank every club from there. So if the 7 iron needed to be 2 degrees stronger, make them all 2 degrees stronger. Works for me.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 18, 2016)

If you know your research shows your PW is now 46 as it is in my I25's as an example, logic dictates that to be have a good short game, there has to be something to bridge the gap to my SW (currently 58). That's 8 degrees and but more importantly I now have a gap between my PW which goes 100 yards and my 58 that goes 65. Off course I need a club to bridge that gap yet reading this (and apologies to Delc if I misinterpret but I don't think I have) that means I've been forced to buy an extra, unnecessary club. I totally disagree and in fact I'd go as far as to argue the additional club actually gives me more variety and options in terms of short game shots and approaches from 70-90 yards.

At the end of the day, bag set up, make and model and the lofts therein are all personal choice. If you want to learn the distances, or use a monitor, then fine. You can use the practice ground and a GPS/laser as I did or even hit balls and pace them off on the course (when it's quiet of course). The point is, not every golfer is the same and some will just guesstimate but enjoy the ease of play the new clubs give. As long as you buy new clubs, enjoy them and enjoy your golf does it make any difference whatsoever to what loft it is and how far it goes


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Exactly!
Even if the OP did research the lofts, it doesn't help because he doesn't know the lofts of his beginner set. He is made to believe the new clubs are ace because he is amazed at how far the 7 iron (usually the only one you are given to try) goes. End result (in the manufacturers mind) is he can't part with his money quick enough. Quite aside from it doesn't matter which club goes which distance etc etc the original post was about him feeling mislead. Well, he did feel mislead and for good reason.
As Hacker said, put it down to experience and be glad the deliberate tactic didn't work on you. As someone who IS sad enough to have a degree in golf club purchase, when I went for my fitting at Ping I told the fitter to crank the 7 iron so that I hit it 150 carry and crank every club from there. So if the 7 iron needed to be 2 degrees stronger, make them all 2 degrees stronger. Works for me.
		
Click to expand...

so you got them to change your new clubs so they went the same distance as your old clubs ?!


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don't know and not bothered 

Only thing that matters IMO is how far I hit each club and I can work things out from there - to me it's as simple as that
		
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But the OP is bothered and the original post was about the OP feeling mislead. Not about how far he hits each club. I am quite sure he is capable of working that out when he gets his new set.
Of course you know very well why they strengthen the lofts. You know its a sales tactic by the manufacturers, but admitting it would lose you the argument.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 18, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If you know your research shows your PW is now 46 as it is in my I25's as an example, logic dictates that to be have a good short game, there has to be something to bridge the gap to my SW (currently 58). That's 8 degrees and but more importantly I now have a gap between my PW which goes 100 yards and my 58 that goes 65.
		
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Err thats 12 Degrees actually

enough for 2 more wedges, 

Ill get the popcorn out


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

Sweep said:



			But the OP is bothered and the original post was about the OP feeling mislead. Not about how far he hits each club. I am quite sure he is capable of working that out when he gets his new set.
Of course you know very well why they strengthen the lofts. You know its a sales tactic by the manufacturers, but admitting it would lose you the argument.
		
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Well actually they jacked up the lofts to help higher HC get the ball higher using longer shafts - all done through research and development - many have given the right answer to the lofts getting stronger on a 7 iron but it's ignored in favour of "conning the golfer". The manufacturers are actually trying to help 

What does it matter if he hits an 8 iron 150 or a 7 iron 150 - as long as the golfer knows which clubs goes the distance he requires - the number on the bottom is a reference point for that golfer and that set of clubs as opposed to a golf standard


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			so you got them to change your new clubs so they went the same distance as your old clubs ?!
		
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No. I got them to change my new clubs so they went the same distance I used to hit when I was younger. It also had the added benefit of assisting greatly with gapping.


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well actually they jacked up the lofts to help higher HC get the ball higher using longer shafts - all done through research and development - many have given the right answer to the lofts getting stronger on a 7 iron but it's ignored in favour of "conning the golfer". The manufacturers are actually trying to help 

What does it matter if he hits an 8 iron 150 or a 7 iron 150 - as long as the golfer knows which clubs goes the distance he requires - the number on the bottom is a reference point for that golfer and that set of clubs as opposed to a golf standard
		
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I thought you said you didn't know?
again, the post is not about how far he hits each club. It about whether strengthening the lofts is a misleading sales tactic


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

Sweep said:



			I thought you said you didn't know?
again, the post is not about how far he hits each club. It about whether strengthening the lofts is a misleading sales tactic
		
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Only have to read the thread to give you answers 

And as been mentioned it must be a poor tactic because it appears most people know about the increased lofts in GI golf sets - it's not new news


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only have to read the thread to give you answers 

And as been mentioned it must be a poor tactic because it appears most people know about the increased lofts in GI golf sets - it's not new news
		
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Most people, all people or just some people?
This has been well covered in the thread - which I have read - and as he says, if he doesn't know and cannot find the lofts of his starter set, or indeed the set he was considering, how does he compare? If he is relatively new to the game or isn't a golf geek he is entitled to think 7 irons have similar lofts.
As you say, it's not new news. So now those of us who are interested have had chance to catch on. I wonder how many were fooled in the first place though?
The only people being tricked here are the people who don't know there was a trick happening in the first place.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

Sweep said:



			Most people, all people or just some people?
This has been well covered in the thread - which I have read - and as he says, if he doesn't know and cannot find the lofts of his starter set, or indeed the set he was considering, how does he compare? If he is relatively new to the game or isn't a golf geek he is entitled to think 7 irons have similar lofts.
As you say, it's not new news. So now those of us who are interested have had chance to catch on. I wonder how many were fooled in the first place though?
The only people being tricked here are the people who don't know there was a trick happening in the first place.
		
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Any golf pro will be able to tell him the lofts of his current set - would take minutes and any reputable golf pro or even AG would be able to tell him the lofts of the set he is looking to purchase - all it takes is asking the question to help him compare. Indeed I got our golf pro this morning to check the lofts of two of my clubs and it was sorted within minutes 

Throughout the forum I have seen one person regualry complain about the lofts on his clubs - he complain he can't hit his 4 iron because it's a loft of an old 3 iron ( yet he said he had no probs hitting an old 3 iron ) - so taking that as a snapshot and from experience of the people I play with - it's not an issue for the majority.

And it's perfect for newbies - the clubs will be helping the new golfers both in terms of length and dispersion and you don't have to be a "golf geek" to know that every single golf set is different


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 18, 2016)

I'm thinking about changing my car. Should I get one that is faster than my current one or one that has the same top speed?


Bluddy manufacturers making them faster all the time...............:sbox:


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I'm thinking about changing my car. Should I get one that is faster than my current one or one that has the same top speed?


Bluddy manufacturers making them faster all the time...............:sbox:
		
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why not get a used blue motion VW, ive heard the fuel efficiency is excellent:rofl:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 18, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			why not get a used blue motion VW, ive heard the fuel efficiency is excellent:rofl:
		
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No that's no good Patrick, I'll need to adjust to how far I can go between fueling stops


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2016)

The "con" as it's described as, can also have a positive placebo effect on a player as he will feel alot more confident hitting an 8 iron from 150 than he would say hitting, in his mind, a 7 or even a 6. 

Beginners don't really need a fully fledged gapped set as they don't usually have the consistency to hit specific distances.  As they improve they will tend to spot where they have gaps the most and buy clubs as and when. Sure a whole set would be nice but it really isn't necessary. 

I was playing to an 18 handicap before I pondered the idea of gap and lob wedges.  

Even today I don't always bring my gap wedge as I don't have the room.


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Any golf pro will be able to tell him the lofts of his current set - would take minutes and any reputable golf pro or even AG would be able to tell him the lofts of the set he is looking to purchase - all it takes is asking the question to help him compare. Indeed I got our golf pro this morning to check the lofts of two of my clubs and it was sorted within minutes
		
Click to expand...

Except he was at AG, see post 129 and he only noticed when he compared the clubs on the range. As far as I know, the pro didn't tell him. If he doesn't know about the variance of loft within different 7 irons, how would he know to ask?
The only crime the OP committed was he that he wasn't aware of the strengthening of lofts. Even though some might publish spec lists, the manufacturers don't advertise the stronger lofts policy. It doesn't take a genius to work out why. He actually worked it out for himself, but still the forum hung him out to dry.
Another point worth considering is that those who are not members of a club won't feel they have access to a club pro. Many would never even think about going to see the pro at their local club. This is a big problem in the industry and often overlooked. So they only consider the big stores. Most sales guys aren't going to risk losing a sale by making it clear to the customer why the new club isn't actually as good as they think. Many won't even know they can have their loft and lie checked. I know DG advertised it quite heavily, but haven't seen it since.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

AG can also tell you the lofts of each iron set

There is always a way to find out the lofts on your clubs.

And surely once hitting the clubs he would ask the question "why does this 7iron go so much further than mine" 

And why wouldn't the club be as good as the numbers suggest - it's still hitting the distance it says on the screen.

And AG also offer loft and lie checks within their MOT


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## Beezerk (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Throughout the forum I have seen one person regualry complain about the lofts on his clubs - he complain he can't hit his 4 iron because it's a loft of an old 3 iron ( yet he said he had no probs hitting an old 3 iron ) - so taking that as a snapshot and from experience of the people I play with - it's not an issue for the majority.
		
Click to expand...

Do you sit at home with a big spreadsheet on your pc, everyones posts planned out on it?


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## Andy (Feb 18, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I've just done a little extra research on club lofts for the Benross Hotspeed 2 (these were the clubs I was considering before I actually went to the store, I can't see the ones that were in the store on the web site).

American Golf website: no mention of lofts
Golf Monthly web review (inc. video clip): no mention of lofts
Today's Golfer web review: 7i loft given
Benross web site: Couldn't find any mention of the irons set, but then they have been discontinued. Hot speed 2 hybrid page did include a table with some loft figures

What won't hep in my case is that I don't know what the lofts are on my Prosimmons clubs (which were bought as a starter set including trolley bag, for Â£150).

So yes, I could have researched the loft (and I guess I will now that I know it's a factor to consider) but I'm not sure it would have helped me much. Besides, I had no idea what clubs they had in stock at the AG store anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Took 1 Google search, less than a minute, first page of results to find the lofts.

One must do better...

http://ukgolfgear.com/Benross-HOT-Speed-Irons-2-Steel


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			Do you sit at home with a big spreadsheet on your pc, everyones posts planned out on it?
		
Click to expand...

Umm no


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## jpjeffery (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And surely once hitting the clubs he would ask the question "why does this 7iron go so much further than mine"
		
Click to expand...

I did, at least in my head, and then spotted the extra length and stronger loft.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			I did, at least in my head, and then spotted the extra length and stronger loft.
		
Click to expand...

So there you go - you found out through experience and now you can adjust what club you take for what distance you want to hit. 

You haven't been conned


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			"So Mr Punter, would you like to try out our latest clubs?  They are guaranteed to hit the ball further than your existing clubs, so let's try the 7-iron against your existing 7-iron." Punter tries out the new 7-iron and indeed hits it further, because it's really a 6-iron with a number 7 stamped on the bottom
		
Click to expand...

So where's the con.?
They're not telling fibs....

And you're not being sold clubs you don't need - you're buying them....


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## jpjeffery (Feb 18, 2016)

Andy said:



			Took 1 Google search, less than a minute, first page of results to find the lofts.

One must do better...

http://ukgolfgear.com/Benross-HOT-Speed-Irons-2-Steel

Click to expand...

Gosh, thank you!

Yes, that's how I found the figures I quoted.


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2016)

Did you spot the 4 degrees by just looking at it.   That's a keen eye.


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## Andy (Feb 18, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Did you spot the 4 degrees by just looking at it.   That's a keen eye.
		
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&#128514; &#128077;


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## jpjeffery (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So there you go - you found out through experience and now you can adjust what club you take for what distance you want to hit. 

You haven't been conned
		
Click to expand...

Because I happened to be suspicious and so I checked. Someone else might not get suspicious and spend the Â£250 on the new clubs thinking they're better, when in fact they're 'just' stronger. It might not matter to them, I'm sure they'd get used to the new distances with the stronger clubs, but still my reaction was that I didn't feel I was able to make a fair comparison and so the time I'd spent wasn't as valuable as it might have been.

Had I spotted, or been told about, (or known by advance researching something I didn't know was a factor!) the stronger loft before I took them to the range bay then I'd probably have felt differently.


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

Imurg said:



			So where's the con.?
They're not telling fibs....
....
		
Click to expand...

They are probably not exactly telling the truth either! They almost certainly won't tell you are hitting the latest 7-iron 10 yards further because it has the length and loft of a 6-iron!  Generally speaking, demo clubs are always 7 irons these days. When I tried out my Speedblades I was also very reluctantly given a PW to try from a brand new full set, and I had to have face protection tape put on that!


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## Region3 (Feb 18, 2016)

I don't know if I've missed it in all the to-ing and fro-ing, but what are the lofts of your 7 iron and the Benross 7 iron?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			Because I happened to be suspicious and so I checked. Someone else might not get suspicious and spend the Â£250 on the new clubs thinking they're better, when in fact they're 'just' stronger. It might not matter to them, I'm sure they'd get used to the new distances with the stronger clubs, but still my reaction was that I didn't feel I was able to make a fair comparison and so the time I'd spent wasn't as valuable as it might have been.

Had I spotted, or been told about, (or known by advance researching something I didn't know was a factor!) the stronger loft before I took them to the range bay then I'd probably have felt differently.
		
Click to expand...

The clubs may well be better as well as stronger lofts - the sweet spot could be bigger , the dispersion better , forgiveness better , the feel , the touch etc etc etc - they won't be "just stronger lofts"


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			They are probably not exactly telling the truth either! They almost certainly won't tell you are hitting the latest 7-iron 10 yards further because it has the length and loft of a 6-iron!  Generally speaking, demo clubs are always 7 irons these days. When I tried out my Speedblades I was also very reluctantly given a PW to try from a brand new full set, and I had to have face protection tape put on that!  

Click to expand...

Seen plenty of demo 6 iron clubs - did you know about the lofts on the Speedblades before you bought them ? With all your experience did you not check the lofts before hand as well


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## JamesR (Feb 18, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			Because I happened to be suspicious and so I checked. *Someone else might not get suspicious and spend the Â£250 on the new clubs thinking they're better, when in fact they're 'just' stronger*. It might not matter to them, I'm sure they'd get used to the new distances with the stronger clubs, but still my reaction was that I didn't feel I was able to make a fair comparison and so the time I'd spent wasn't as valuable as it might have been.

Had I spotted, or been told about, (or known by advance researching something I didn't know was a factor!) the stronger loft before I took them to the range bay then I'd probably have felt differently.
		
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that the Benross clubs will not only stronger than, but they'll also be better than the Prosimmons.


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## JamesR (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			They are probably not exactly telling the truth either! They almost certainly won't tell you are hitting the latest 7-iron 10 yards further because it has the length and loft of a 6-iron!  *Generally speaking, demo clubs are always 7 irons these days*. When I tried out my Speedblades I was also very reluctantly given a PW to try from a brand new full set, and I had to have face protection tape put on that!  

Click to expand...

I've nearly always used a 6 iron for fittings & demo's.


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## USER1999 (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seen plenty of demo 6 iron clubs - did you know about the lofts on the Speedblades before you bought them ? With all your experience did you not check the lofts before hand as well
		
Click to expand...

May be they are now  demoing 7 irons because they are actually 6 irons in disguise? Cunning.


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

JamesR said:



			I've nearly always used a 6 iron for fittings & demo's.
		
Click to expand...

They used to be 6 irons, but now seem to be 7 irons because they do the same thing. A couple or so years ago there were loads of single 6 irons for sale on eBay, presumably because retailers were selling them off.  A 6 iron with 5-iron length and loft might be a bit too difficult for some punters to hit straight!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			May be they are now  demoing 7 irons because they are actually 6 irons in disguise? Cunning.
		
Click to expand...

Nasty manufacturers


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## JamesR (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			They used to be 6 irons, but now seem to be 7 irons because they do the same thing. A couple or so years ago there were loads of single 6 irons for sale on eBay, presumably because retailers were selling them off. * A 6 iron with 5-iron length and loft might be a bit too difficult for some punters to hit straight!* 

Click to expand...

They should probably give up then:smirk:


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## CMNI (Feb 18, 2016)

Having only been playing around a year with second hand clubs, I went out to get a shinny new set: 1/ to look awesome, 2/ to improve on miss hits.  

In my old set I had a terrible Cobra Long Tom, my current Jetspeed 3wood, Old King cobra irons and an MD Putter.

I could hit my 3wood straighter and further off the deck than my tee'd up driver.  So I new a complete overhaul was coming.

I started looking for the right deal on the right club. This just happened to be my irons, which I talked the pro down to Â£160 (currently still selling at Â£180 and discontinued).  I hit the 7-iron and it went much further than my old one (I was also comparing apples for apples), but what I was looking was consistency, as a GI it was much more forgiving, went straighter and felt nice to swing. 

Never in a million years would I have considered W/S before I tried them out, as I am a club house golfer and will happily admit I would rather pull a top end bag of sticks out of my car.  

Thing is, golf isn't about how but rather how many.  

I then picked up a driver that was much more consistent and flying further than my three (avg 260yard and 220 with the 3), and went about playing my game.

Putter came next- much better feel and now love being on and around the greens, where as before my favourite aspect of the game was bombing it off the tee. 

I discovered after a few rounds that the 5i to 3w gap was way to much and filled it with a hybrid, and noticed that my PW to SW was way out in comparison to my old set.  I picked up a 52 tour trusty, and now my kits complete. 

Now, I got away with it because I was building a full kit and started with the irons.  
But the OP was only changing his irons, so this is where the issue came from.

I have only been playing a short while, and done very little research when buying my clubs.  What I do know is when it comes to changing, it will be a complete overhaul again.

My hybrid suits my game with my irons, the same hybrid may not fit in with a different set.  The only way to get shinny new clubs to fit into your bag in my opinion is to buy two sets and replace like for like.

If you try out a 7iron and it consistently goes the same distance as you current but on a straighter path that's great, go for that. But if you are gaining yards with the 7 common sense will tell you you will likely gain across the set, and surely that will set alarms bells of wether you know lofts or not.  

I think you need to treat your clubs as a complete bag, rather than 5-PW, Driver, 3, 5w etc.

I enjoy hitting my irons and have built a bag around them.  When it comes time for a new set I look forward to doing it all again.


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## Crow (Feb 18, 2016)

I gave up trying to read all the posts so apologies if it's been mentioned before but here's my suggestion as to why lofts may have been cranked.

It was said earlier that the new GI clubs have been designed to be easier to get a high launch to help the beginner.
As a result the offending high launching 7 iron with a "traditional" loft would not go as far, although for a beginner it would still be a much better choice of club as they'd hit it more consistently.

As club manufacturers believe that we're obsessed with length (and I think we can agree that this is so, particularly for beginners) the last thing they would want is for their new irons to be shorter than the last generation or their competition so they started tweaking the loft a little to offset the higher launch/shorter distance. 

This would have been acceptable on its own but they've now gone further and tweaked the loft to not only get the club hitting the same distance but to hit it further and claim spurious yardage increases.
It's this last part that has, quite rightly in my view, incensed many golfers.


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## bluewolf (Feb 18, 2016)

Crow said:



			I gave up trying to read all the posts so apologies if it's been mentioned before but here's my suggestion as to why lofts may have been cranked.

It was said earlier that the new GI clubs have been designed to be easier to get a high launch to help the beginner.
As a result the offending high launching 7 iron with a "traditional" loft would not go as far, although for a beginner it would still be a much better choice of club as they'd hit it more consistently.

As club manufacturers believe that we're obsessed with length (and I think we can agree that this is so, particularly for beginners) the last thing they would want is for their new irons to be shorter than the last generation or their competition so they started tweaking the loft a little to offset the higher launch/shorter distance. 

This would have been acceptable on its own but they've now gone further and tweaked the loft to not only get the club hitting the same distance but to hit it further and claim spurious yardage increases.
It's this last part that has, quite rightly in my view, incensed many golfers.
		
Click to expand...

Not that I'm totally disagreeing with you, but this theory kind of ignores the fact that new technology has allowed Manufacturers to produce clubheads that hit the ball further.. I know that my current set, which has what we would refer to as "more traditional" lofts, definitely gets the ball further out there than a previous set that had the same shaft of the same length.. 

There are too many variables to just concentrate on loft.. It's a red herring that is being seized upon by people who have bought a set without realizing the full implications of the extra distance.. I'm currently considering dropping the 3 hybrid I currently carry as my current 4 iron goes roughly the same distance.. However, I may just keep it in the bag as it's great on still days for long par 3's..

Anyway, it's hardly the worst problem in the world is it? Fairly simple solution.. Either pick up another wedge, or learn to hit fractional shots.. Whatever gets the ball in the hole sooner..

Edit.. I've just checked and my older set actually had stronger lofts!!! Weird eh???? Bloody manufacturers.. Weakening lofts and allowing us to hit it further.. I've been conned


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## Crow (Feb 18, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Not that I'm totally disagreeing with you, but this theory kind of ignores the fact that new technology has allowed Manufacturers to produce clubheads that hit the ball further.. I know that my current set, which has what we would refer to as "more traditional" lofts, definitely gets the ball further out there than a previous set that had the same shaft of the same length.. 

There are too many variables to just concentrate on loft.. It's a red herring that is being seized upon by people who have bought a set without realizing the full implications of the extra distance.. I'm currently considering dropping the 3 hybrid I currently carry as my current 4 iron goes roughly the same distance.. However, I may just keep it in the bag as it's great on still days for long par 3's..

Anyway, it's hardly the worst problem in the world is it? Fairly simple solution.. Either pick up another wedge, or learn to hit fractional shots.. Whatever gets the ball in the hole sooner..

Edit.. I've just checked and my older set actually had stronger lofts!!! Weird eh???? Bloody manufacturers.. Weakening lofts and allowing us to hit it further.. I've been conned 

Click to expand...

I sort of agree with your point on clubs going further but it's more their forgiveness that allows us to consistently get better distance. 
My guess is that of you hit the ball out the sweet spot then the distance will be the same for older and newer clubs, where the technology helps is when we're not quite out the middle, or even way off it!


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Not that I'm totally disagreeing with you, but this theory kind of ignores the fact that new technology has allowed Manufacturers to produce clubheads that hit the ball further.. I know that my current set, which has what we would refer to as "more traditional" lofts, definitely gets the ball further out there than a previous set that had the same shaft of the same length.. 

There are too many variables to just concentrate on loft.. It's a red herring that is being seized upon by people who have bought a set without realizing the full implications of the extra distance.. I'm currently considering dropping the 3 hybrid I currently carry as my current 4 iron goes roughly the same distance.. However, I may just keep it in the bag as it's great on still days for long par 3's..

Anyway, it's hardly the worst problem in the world is it? Fairly simple solution.. Either pick up another wedge, or learn to hit fractional shots.. Whatever gets the ball in the hole sooner..

Edit.. I've just checked and my older set actually had stronger lofts!!! Weird eh???? Bloody manufacturers.. Weakening lofts and allowing us to hit it further.. I've been conned 

Click to expand...

The distance a club will hit a ball is about 85% down to loft angle and 15% down to club length (within reason). Game improvement irons have a larger sweet spot by moving weight to the perimeter of the clubhead, but that by itself does not add length, just forgiveness for off centre strikes. The other things you can play around with are the flexibility of the shaft and where its kick point is, or hot faces which flex slightly and then rebound when a golf ball is struck, adding to energy transfer. However the latter two only have a marginal effect. Otherwise it's purely down to the physics of energy transfer. Strengthening the lofts is the only thing you can do to significantly increase distance!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			They used to be 6 irons, but now seem to be 7 irons because they do the same thing. A couple or so years ago there were loads of single 6 irons for sale on eBay, presumably because retailers were selling them off.  A 6 iron with 5-iron length and loft might be a bit too difficult for some punters to hit straight!  

Click to expand...

Nope all the demo clubs I have used have definitely had a large 6 on the bottom. I use that loft and yardage as a starting point and my fits are worked from there. At the end of the day Del at our level does it really make a difference. Forget what loft it is and just stand there and hit it. If you can't hit it learn to do so


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nope all the demo clubs I have used have definitely had a large 6 on the bottom. I use that loft and yardage as a starting point and my fits are worked from there. At the end of the day Del at our level does it really make a difference. Forget what loft it is and just stand there and hit it. If you can't hit it learn to do so
		
Click to expand...

How many years is it since you last went to a demo day?  I haven't been given anything other than a 7 iron for years!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			How many years is it since you last went to a demo day?  I haven't been given anything other than a 7 iron for years!  

Click to expand...

Titliest Demo day the other week - all 6 irons


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## bluewolf (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Titliest Demo day the other week - all 6 irons
		
Click to expand...

Last one I went to was last year, but that was 6 irons as well.. I think I'd prefer a 7 iron though.. I keep hitting it over the back net of the range with those pesky 6 irons.. Can't explain it really..


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## upsidedown (Feb 18, 2016)

7 irons at our demo days


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 18, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Last one I went to was last year, but that was 6 irons as well.. I think I'd prefer a 7 iron though.. I keep hitting it over the back net of the range with those pesky 6 irons.. Can't explain it really..
		
Click to expand...

Went to Cally, Ping, TM, Titleist and Yonex demo days last year. Six irons throughout


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## BTatHome (Feb 18, 2016)

Just love it when someone adds some percentages and stats into their discussion to make it all so much believable ... and yet its still made up nonsense.


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

To put it in simple terms, the more oblique and below centre the strike due to loft, the more energy goes into backspin and height, and less in driving the ball forward. Hence more loft always equals less distance, everything else such as clubhead speed staying constant.


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## Sweep (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			AG can also tell you the lofts of each iron set

There is always a way to find out the lofts on your clubs.

And surely once hitting the clubs he would ask the question "why does this 7iron go so much further than mine" 

And why wouldn't the club be as good as the numbers suggest - it's still hitting the distance it says on the screen.

And AG also offer loft and lie checks within their MOT
		
Click to expand...

AG can tell you the lofts, but they didn't.

There is always the way to find out the lofts on your clubs, but you would only need to if you knew about the stronger loft policy.

He did ask the question on why it went further and worked it out for himself.

No-one, as you well know, is disputing the club is as good as the numbers suggest. At the risk of repeating myself, that is not why the OP felt mislead.

He wasn't getting an MOT, but even so, why didn't AG tell him about the stronger lofts and longer shaft? Probably for the same reason the manufacturers didn't either. I mean, why talk yourself out of a sale?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			To put it in simple terms, the more oblique and below centre the strike due to loft, the more energy goes into backspin and height, and less in driving the ball forward. Hence more loft always equals less distance, everything else such as clubhead speed staying constant.  

Click to expand...

Did you know the lofts on the Speedbladz were stronger before you bought them ?


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you know the lofts on the Speedbladz were stronger before you bought them ?
		
Click to expand...

I sort of assumed that they would be about the same as my Ping i15 irons, which are also reasonably modern clubs. I now know better! By the way, TM are not the only manufacturers bringing out irons with ever stronger lofts and longer shafts to give more distance from given numbered irons. Even Ping are doing it! Every recent evolution of the G and i series seems to have a degree taken off the lofts and 1/4" added to the lengths of the shafts. Guess they have to do this to keep up in the distance stakes with TM!


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## 351DRIVER (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			The distance a club will hit a ball is about 85% down to loft angle and 15% down to club length (within reason). Game improvement irons have a larger sweet spot by moving weight to the perimeter of the clubhead, but that by itself does not add length, just forgiveness for off centre strikes. The other things you can play around with are the flexibility of the shaft and where its kick point is, or hot faces which flex slightly and then rebound when a golf ball is struck, adding to energy transfer. However the latter two only have a marginal effect. Otherwise it's purely down to the physics of energy transfer. Strengthening the lofts is the only thing you can do to significantly increase distance!
		
Click to expand...


Sweet spot is not an area, there is a tiny point where the best strike can be had.
Golf clubs do not have a big sweet spot ever, you can get a pretty good result near the sweet spot on Game Improvement clubs but the sweet spot is and always has been just that a spot.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			I sort of assumed that they would be about the same as my Ping i15 irons, which are also reasonably modern clubs. I now know better! By the way, TM are not the only manufacturers bringing out irons with ever stronger lofts and longer shafts to give more distance from given numbered irons. Even Ping are doing it! Every recent evolution of the G and i series seems to have a degree taken off the lofts and 1/4" added to the lengths of the shafts. Guess they have to do this to keep up in the distance stakes with TM!
		
Click to expand...

So you have been playing for 50 years ? 

Seem to have a vast amount of experience about all things to do with golf no doubt read lots of articles and magazines and this forum 

Yet assumed the lofts were the same ?!

Did you find out after you had them CF or whilst you were trying them ?


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## richart (Feb 18, 2016)

BTatHome said:



			Just love it when someone adds some percentages and stats into their discussion to make it all so much believable ... and yet its still made up nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

100% agree with you.


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Sweet spot is not an area, there is a tiny point where the best strike can be had.
Golf clubs do not have a big sweet spot ever, you can get a pretty good result near the sweet spot on Game Improvement clubs but the sweet spot is and always has been just that a spot.
		
Click to expand...

One good thing I will say about my TM Speedblades is that any strike that is not a shank or completely off the toe goes pretty straight and a reasonable distance. This is due to perimeter weighting and a fairly wide sole, which gives some degree of gear effect. I started playing golf when Ping were only just coming onto the scene, and most irons were still wafer thin blades. With those you knew all about off centre hits, because they stung your hands, went off in the wrong direction and lost a lot of distance!


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## 3565 (Feb 18, 2016)

Can we discuss how psycology plays a huge part in golf.............:thup:


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## ruff-driver (Feb 18, 2016)

3565 said:



			Can we discuss how psycology plays a huge part in golf.............:thup:
		
Click to expand...


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you have been playing for 50 years ? 

Seem to have a vast amount of experience about all things to do with golf no doubt read lots of articles and magazines and this forum 

Yet assumed the lofts were the same ?!

Did you find out after you had them CF or whilst you were trying them ?
		
Click to expand...

Tell me LP, do you get a kick out of being obnoxious, or is something that just comes naturally? 

I only started looking at exact club specifications after I found difficulty with hitting the TM 4-iron, which hadn't been an issue with my Ping i15's. Like most people, including the OP in this thread, I sort of assumed that club numbers meant something. Now I know they don't, but I still think that they should!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2016)

delc said:



			Tell me LP, do you get a kick out of being obnoxious, or is something that just comes naturally? 

I only started looking at exact club specifications after I found difficulty with hitting the TM 4-iron, which hadn't been an issue with my Ping i15's. Like most people, including the OP in this thread, I sort of assumed that club numbers meant something. Now I know they don't, but I still think that they should!  

Click to expand...

The number does mean something - you are hitting that club number for that make and model.

Where my questions to you not fair ?


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## 3565 (Feb 18, 2016)

ruff-driver said:










Click to expand...

Doh............spell checker was awol


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## Tiger (Feb 18, 2016)

Is this discussion still raging? Wow. I've been off smacking my head against a brick wall and am making much better progress


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## ruff-driver (Feb 18, 2016)

Tiger said:



			Is this discussion still raging? Wow. I've been off smacking my head against a brick wall and am making much better progress 

Click to expand...

Yep,  the chuckle brothers have around 40 posts each


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## 3565 (Feb 18, 2016)

Well I'm going to order new Wishon 575 muscle back heads with 4i at 23* then 5i loft of 26* and it goes up by 4* increments to PW at 46* since I'm not a great fan of OEMs and all the marketing gumph that goes with them.


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## Robobum (Feb 18, 2016)

ruff-driver said:



			Yep,  the chuckle brothers have around 40 posts each 

Click to expand...

I had a different name in my mind for them


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## 351DRIVER (Feb 18, 2016)

Perimeter weighting in irons reduces gear effect 
Do not use terms you do not understand, it makes you look foolish.
You want me to explain what Gear effect is and why a perimeter weighted club produces less than a blade not a problem


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## delc (Feb 18, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Perimeter weighting in irons reduces gear effect 
Do not use terms you do not understand, it makes you look foolish.
You want me to explain what Gear effect is and why a perimeter weighted club produces less than a blade not a problem
		
Click to expand...

Gear effect is when the club head's centre of gravity is somewhat behind the clubface. If the ball is struck off centre, the head tends to rotate around the C of G and impacts some sidespin that partly conteracts the effect of the off centre hit. Otherwise, for right handed players, shots off the toe will go right and shots off the heel with go left. For clubs like drivers and fairway woods where the C of G is well back in the head, it can be necessary to put a bulge in the face to prevent the gear effect becoming too great, as otherwise shots off the toe will hook, and off the heel slice. My Speed blade irons have a fairly wide flange and an extra piece of metal behind the face with a slot in between. This moves the C of G back a bit and must give some gear effect!


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## delc (Feb 19, 2016)

If anybody wants to know the theory behind all this, the Tom Wishon website is quite a good read. Also 'The Search for the Perfect Swing' by Cochran and Stobbs is a pretty unbiased scientific study of golf.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2016)

delc said:



*If anybody wants to know the theory behind all this*, the Tom Wishon website is quite a good read. Also 'The Search for the Perfect Swing' by Cochran and Stobbs is a pretty unbiased scientific study of golf.
		
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To be honest no. All I want are some clubs which make the game easier and therefore more enjoyable for me. I don't care if it says 7, 6, 5 or 'I heart Nigel Farage' on the bottom of one and 'The Daily Mail is a great read' on the bottom of another, as long as it goes a certain distance and hides some of the many inadequacies in my swing.


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## JamesR (Feb 19, 2016)

delc said:



*If anybody wants to know the theory behind all this*, the Tom Wishon website is quite a good read. Also 'The Search for the Perfect Swing' by Cochran and Stobbs is a pretty unbiased scientific study of golf.
		
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Who cares about the theory, all that matters to me is that I can hit my 8 iron further than you can hit your 5 iron. 
It makes me feel like a pro :thup:


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## Slab (Feb 19, 2016)

Question for you guys, lets make it multiple choice: 

When I compare the distance _and _dispersion of my 7iron last Sunday to how I hit it yesterday I have lost a good number of yards and the accuracy has gone to pot, who conned me!


Manufacture
Retailer
Club Pro
A forum member
No one it was windy
You call that wind?
Ok it wasn't really windy
GM
Weren't you supposed to be working yesterday?
Clay Long

I need to know who to direct my rant at?


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## garyinderry (Feb 19, 2016)

Gear effect on irons??  


Not so sure about that.


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## JamesR (Feb 19, 2016)

Slab said:



			Question for you guys, lets make it multiple choice: 

When I compare the distance _and _dispersion of my 7iron last Sunday to how I hit it yesterday I have lost a good number of yards and the accuracy has gone to pot, who conned me!


Manufacture - yes, they lied about off centre strikes
Retailer - yes, they lied about the manufacturers claims being accurate
Club Pro - yes, he didn't teach you to avoid off centre strikes
A forum member - yes, probably Delc
No one it was windy - no, you should always blame someone for something
You call that wind? - have you never played on a hill top in the Peak District?
Ok it wasn't really windy - good, honesty is the 2nd best policy, after blaming someone for something
GM - they advertise these clubs which lie to us
Weren't you supposed to be working yesterday? - no one should be working, I'd outlaw it
Clay Long - no, he never did any wrong - he is the most honest man in golf

I need to know who to direct my rant at?
		
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Answers noted above!


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## delc (Feb 19, 2016)

BTatHome said:



			Just love it when someone adds some percentages and stats into their discussion to make it all so much believable ... and yet its still made up nonsense.
		
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From Tom Wishon's website (a well respected US clubmaker):

More recently, research into shot performance has shown that the distance between the different irons in a set comes 80-85% from the loft angle change from club to club, and 15-20% from the length change from club to club through the set.   As such, length change within a set of irons is much less important for a distance difference between irons than are the differences in the loft angles through the set.   This opens the door for a single length set to be a viable alternative to the conventional incremental length set.

US Amateur Champion Bryson deChambeau actually uses a set of single length irons BTW!


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## delc (Feb 19, 2016)

Slab said:



			Question for you guys, lets make it multiple choice: 

When I compare the distance _and _dispersion of my 7iron last Sunday to how I hit it yesterday I have lost a good number of yards and the accuracy has gone to pot, who conned me!


Manufacture
Retailer
Club Pro
A forum member
No one it was windy
You call that wind?
Ok it wasn't really windy
GM
Weren't you supposed to be working yesterday?
Clay Long

I need to know who to direct my rant at?
		
Click to expand...

I would personally blame the nut holding the club!


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## BTatHome (Feb 19, 2016)

Delc, Wishon is often quoted by you and yet he's talking about the distance difference within a set of irons .... is this actually the same discussion? 

If this was true for ALL irons then why would anybody need to change irons? All irons with the same length and loft would go the same distance! 

Anyway let's be honest about your purchases, you bought your irons because they were cheap, you bought an R1 because it was a bargain at the time (and you told everyone it was awesome long and straight) you now have a cobra that wasn't much different in length but somehow is straighter?!? Do you think maybe the clubs are all fine and you just want to change, or your swing is deteriorating ?


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## Slab (Feb 19, 2016)

delc said:



			I would personally blame the nut holding the club!  

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Nuts are a touchy subject at the moment del... but becasue i know you have one and _*this is totally off topic*_:

The retaining nut/screw for the rear weight on my new FlyZ driver snapped in two yesterday!

Incredible, I just took the headcover off and the rear weight fell on the ground with half the screw left in the hole, no sign of the screw head. 
Anyway after much blubs and several blobs I mailed Cobra this morning to see if they'll post a replacement so I can reattach the weight, just have to wait now to see if they'll oblige as getting the club back to the store overseas will be a nightmare


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## jpjeffery (Feb 19, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I don't know if I've missed it in all the to-ing and fro-ing, but what are the lofts of your 7 iron and the Benross 7 iron?
		
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I don't know what loft my existing 7 iron is.


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## jpjeffery (Feb 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The clubs may well be better as well as stronger lofts - the sweet spot could be bigger , the dispersion better , forgiveness better , the feel , the touch etc etc etc - they won't be "just stronger lofts"
		
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Granted, and agreed.


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## Smiffy (Feb 19, 2016)

Doesn't anybody play this game for fun anymore???
Launch angles, gear effect, lofts, jeez.
If a bloke only takes a 9 iron to hit it the same distance as I hit my 7 iron I couldn't give a toss.
I'm just praying I'm a better putter than he is.


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## jpjeffery (Feb 19, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Doesn't anybody play this game for fun anymore???
Launch angles, gear effect, lofts, jeez.
If a bloke only takes a 9 iron to hit it the same distance as I hit my 7 iron I couldn't give a toss.
I'm just praying I'm a better putter than he is.
		
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An excellent perspective!


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## bluewolf (Feb 19, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Doesn't anybody play this game for fun anymore???
Launch angles, gear effect, lofts, jeez.
If a bloke only takes a 9 iron to hit it the same distance as I hit my 7 iron I couldn't give a toss.
I'm just praying I'm a better putter than he is.
		
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But if people don't have someone to blame then how will they ever explain not getting any better?


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2016)

Slab said:



			Question for you guys, lets make it multiple choice: 

When I compare the distance _and _dispersion of my 7iron last Sunday to how I hit it yesterday I have lost a good number of yards and the accuracy has gone to pot, who conned me!


Manufacture
Retailer
Club Pro
A forum member
No one it was windy
You call that wind?
Ok it wasn't really windy
GM
Weren't you supposed to be working yesterday?
Clay Long

I need to know who to direct my rant at?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure about Clay Long, but I blame Clay Davis.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...........


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## JamesR (Feb 19, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Doesn't anybody play this game for fun anymore???
Launch angles, gear effect, lofts, jeez.
If a bloke only takes a 9 iron to hit it the same distance as I hit my 7 iron I couldn't give a toss.
*I'm just praying I'm a better putter than he is*.
		
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...and when it turns out you're not?


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## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2016)

delc said:



			A 7-iron has a certain head weight to give the correct swing weight for the length of shaft, not because it is an intrinsic value in itself!
		
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Er....Complete and Utter Twaddle! 

A standard 7-iron (head) 270 grams +/- 2 grams - end of story! And there is a 7gm difference between other head weights (may occasionally be a 6 gm difference within a set). 

So absolutely 'because it is an intrinsic value in itself'!

The swing weight is set by adding weight to the base club-head weight, if necessary!

Most manufacturers dont publish the head weights - as, because they are standard, they don't need to. 

But here's a link to Miura's 501 specs

 	#3	#4	#5	#6	#7	#8	#9	PW
Loft Â°	21	24	27	30	34	38	42	47
Lie Â°	59.0	59.5	60.0	60.5	61.0	61.5	62.0	62.5
Offset (mm)	3.2	3.2	3.2	2.7	2.7	2.7	2.2	1.2
Bounce Angle Â°	2	4	5	6	7	8	8	10
F.P. (mm)	4	4	4	4.5	4.5	4.5	5	6
Weight (grams)	244	250	257	264	271	278	285	295

And here's a link to a Golfsmiths page confirming my statement!

https://www.golfsmith.com/pdf/cm_intro_irons.pdf


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## Slab (Feb 19, 2016)

Slab said:



			Nuts are a touchy subject at the moment del... but becasue i know you have one and _*this is totally off topic*_:

The retaining nut/screw for the rear weight on my new FlyZ driver snapped in two yesterday!

Incredible, I just took the headcover off and the rear weight fell on the ground with half the screw left in the hole, no sign of the screw head. 
Anyway after much blubs and several blobs I mailed Cobra this morning to see if they'll post a replacement so I can reattach the weight, just have to wait now to see if they'll oblige as getting the club back to the store overseas will be a nightmare
		
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While it was an off topic post I feel I need to point out that Cobra have been in touch since I posted the above and a new part is on its way 

1st class service from Cobra


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## garyinderry (Feb 19, 2016)

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php


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## ruff-driver (Feb 19, 2016)

garyinderry said:



View attachment 18483



http://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php

Click to expand...







:ears:


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## garyinderry (Feb 19, 2016)

Doesn't make it so :rofl:


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## Region3 (Feb 19, 2016)

garyinderry said:



View attachment 18485


Doesn't make it so :rofl:
		
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I was gonna post a pic of a Dunlop Tour iron, but that works too


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 19, 2016)

Can anyone tell me the angle and depth of the numbering on my i20's then please, and how it might interact with the turf with it's coefficient of resistance against said turf, I really can't be arsed to go researching.....

Is this forum now US based?:smirk:


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## garyinderry (Feb 19, 2016)

Bunkermagnet,  what a silly thing to ask. How in God's green earth can we answer that?

You havnt told us what time of the day you are hitting this strike as the grass will face ever so slightly towards the sun skewing the results. Jeezz,  I give up with you lot.


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## evahakool (Feb 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The clubs may well be better as well as stronger lofts - the sweet spot could be bigger , the dispersion better , forgiveness better , the feel , the touch etc etc etc - they won't be "just stronger lofts"
		
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What's all this myth regarding the sweetspot? I thought the sweetspot is the size of a pinhead.


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## Noidea (Feb 19, 2016)

One of the first pieces of advice I was given as a teenager when I started playing was basically a 7i goes 150 yards, 6i 160 yards ,8i 140, still to this day I follow this general distance guide so not matter what make,what loft, what angle what new fancy bats you have ,10 yards out is not the end of the world.Remember tour pros are hitting wedges 150ish because of the pure customisation of their gear.


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## delc (Feb 19, 2016)

Titleist DCI Black Specifications, 1983:

http://www.titleist.com/golf-clubs/irons/dci-black

Ping i 2016 Specifications:

http://www.ping.com/clubs/ironsdetail.aspx?id=19659

I was hoping to copy these out, but they won't line up properly. You will be able to see and compare the quite massive changes in specs that have occured in the last 30 years. These are both better player semi-game improver type irons btw.


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## TheJezster (Feb 19, 2016)

delc said:



			Titleist DCI Black Specifications, 1983:

http://www.titleist.com/golf-clubs/irons/dci-black

Ping i 2016 Specifications:

http://www.ping.com/clubs/ironsdetail.aspx?id=19659

I was hoping to copy these out, but they won't line up properly. You will be able to see and compare the quite massive changes in specs that have occured in the last 30 years. These are both better player semi-game improver type irons btw.
		
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Del, what's the point of this post? We all know that lofts have changed over the years, and not one single person is disputing that! 
Just repeating the same thing over and over isn't going to do anything, especially when it's not the point of the thread. The point is whether there should be a standardisation of lofts (within a similar group of irons) not whether there HAS been a strengthening over the years! Shall we stop this repetition now? The thread is over, it has been for some time now... No one was right or wrong, there's just a difference of opinion. Some people made some well made interesting points and some didn't really come out of it too well. No need to keep posting the same thing tho, it's already been said.


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## Region3 (Feb 19, 2016)

Noidea said:



			One of the first pieces of advice I was given as a teenager when I started playing was basically a 7i goes 150 yards, 6i 160 yards ,8i 140, still to this day I follow this general distance guide so not matter what make,what loft, what angle what new fancy bats you have ,10 yards out is not the end of the world.*Remember tour pros are hitting wedges 150ish because of the pure customisation of their gear.*

Click to expand...

I hit my 7 iron about 160. Does that mean my clubs have been customised a little bit?


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## palindromicbob (Feb 20, 2016)

Noidea said:



			One of the first pieces of advice I was given as a teenager when I started playing was basically a 7i goes 150 yards, 6i 160 yards ,8i 140, still to this day I follow this general distance guide so not matter what make,what loft, what angle what new fancy bats you have ,10 yards out is not the end of the world.Remember tour pros are hitting wedges 150ish because of the pure customisation of their gear.
		
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So nothing to do with the fact they generate significantly more club head speed then?


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## delc (Feb 20, 2016)

palindromicbob said:



			So nothing to do with the fact they generate significantly more club head speed then?
		
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I believe that most successful modern tour pros spend quite a few hours a week working out in the gym, to be able to hit the ball the distances that they do. If you watch old videos of Shell's Wonderful Workd of Golf, it is quite noticeable how weedy and unfit some of our heroes of yesteryear looked in comparison, Gary Player excepted.


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## Smiffy (Feb 20, 2016)




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## Smiffy (Feb 20, 2016)

jpjeffery said:



			Hmm, this is the second time someone has said this about Delc. Who is this Delc?


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Regretting it yet???????


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 20, 2016)

Noidea said:



			One of the first pieces of advice I was given as a teenager when I started playing was basically a 7i goes 150 yards, 6i 160 yards ,8i 140, still to this day I follow this general distance guide so not matter what make,what loft, what angle what new fancy bats you have ,10 yards out is not the end of the world.Remember tour pros are hitting wedges 150ish *because of the pure customisation of their gear.*

Click to expand...

You chose your forum name well!


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## delc (Feb 20, 2016)

Noidea said:



			One of the first pieces of advice I was given as a teenager when I started playing was basically a 7i goes 150 yards, 6i 160 yards ,8i 140, still to this day I follow this general distance guide so not matter what make,what loft, what angle what new fancy bats you have ,10 yards out is not the end of the world.Remember tour pros are hitting wedges 150ish because of the pure customisation of their gear.
		
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When I was a lot younger, 150 yards was my 7 iron distance, even with traditional spec clubs. I am now down to about 130 yards, even with the latest jacked loft 7-irons!  150 yards is a reasonable distance for a 7 iron  IMHO, but when people can hit the new PW's that distance, it's getting a bit ridiculous in my opinion!  How are you supposed to play shorter shots around the green, which was the traditional use of a PW. You now have to buy one or more gap wedges!


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## garyinderry (Feb 20, 2016)

Sounds like  jacked lofts are helping you no end.


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## delc (Feb 20, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Sounds like  jacked lofts are helping you no end.
		
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Even I have a 50 degree Gap Wedge!


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 20, 2016)

This thread is turning into a Mousetrap of the Forum,  it's going to run & run.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 20, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			You chose your forum name well!
		
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Can I just say that is a quality response.


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## USER1999 (Feb 20, 2016)

It's nice to know that from 150, it's a seven iron. 

It's going to transform my golf from tomorrow .

Scratch, here we come.


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## Noidea (Feb 21, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			You chose your forum name well!
		
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Sarcasm, a game enjoyed by golfers who think they have an idea !!!!


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