# The Union Jack



## bobmac (Jul 8, 2017)

Do you have one fluttering about your house/shed/garage/kitchen drawer?
Do you even own one?
I don't mean the little ones that attach to you car window I mean the biggies




P.S.
This has nothing to do with Brexit


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## Kellfire (Jul 8, 2017)

Nope. I don't understand why anyone would to be honest.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 8, 2017)

I do have one, at the moment the George cross is flying.

my pride and joy is a "Clifford" coat of arms flag that flew above skipton castle. Once they are battle weathered they flog um onto Joe Public.

PS, had a neighbour who lives five doors away say my flag pole rattles in the wind and is noisy. All the time we are talking his dog is barking its head off like it does most days.


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## Kellfire (Jul 8, 2017)

Any time I see a house flying one, my immediate thought is "chav". But then I've said it many times that the concept of national pride is a baffling one to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Do you have one fluttering about your house/shed/garage/kitchen drawer?
Do you even own one?
I don't mean the little ones that attach to you car window I mean the biggies

View attachment 23058


P.S.
This has nothing to do with Brexit
		
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That one is upside down, top left the wide white diagonal should be above the red stripe.

Own a couple.


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## Sweep (Jul 8, 2017)

Yes I have one. I used to live in a house with a flag pole in the garden, but the flags were always getting nicked. One time they even took the pole down  and then cut the lanyard to take the flag. Of course, if they cut the lanyard first they could have saved themselves the trouble of taking down the pole, but I don't suppose you can expect intelligence from thieves.
I don't fly it now but last time I played a gig I tied it to the mic stand &#128512;


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2017)

Yes... Along with several other nations...

On my to do list when I retire is to get myself a proper flagpole...

A near[ish] neighbour flies a different flag nearly every day relating to an event/national day... Often have to go and google the flag flying to find out which flag it is and/or the reason why it might be flying...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Any time I see a house flying one, my immediate thought is "chav". But then I've said it many times that the concept of national pride is a baffling one to me.
		
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And mine when visiting England. [with the exceptions of folk in castles]
In NI and Scotland it is a whole new ball game.

I always have a wee giggle to myself when I spot owners who don't know the right way to hoist their precious flag.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Do you have one fluttering about your house/shed/garage/kitchen drawer?
Do you even own one?
I don't mean the little ones that attach to you car window I mean the biggies

View attachment 23058


P.S.
This has nothing to do with Brexit
		
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Nope and don't understand the need to have one flying tbh


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			And mine when visiting England. [with the exceptions of folk in castles]
		
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An Englisman's home is his castle...
Thought that was a well known fact...

A road, not far from me, nearly every other house has a tricolour  flying from it and no one bats an eyelid...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2017)

Go to America and it is "spot the house without one".


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Go to America and it is "spot the house without one".
		
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So should we do the same?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So should we do the same?
		
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Each to their own for me, if someone wants to show their national pride by flying a flag, crack on.


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## Beezerk (Jul 8, 2017)

Pedant alert. Is it not the Union Flag? It's only called a Jack when it's on a ship iirc.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 8, 2017)

I have 2 Union Flags
The small one we use at indoor Scout meetings
And the chuffing mahoosive one we take to camp and put it up the chuffing mahoosive flag pole 

Dyb dyb dyb, dob, dob, dob &#128526;


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Pedant alert. Is it not the Union Flag? It's only called a Jack when it's on a ship iirc.
		
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''It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially.''
_Cdr Bruce Nicolls OBE RN (Retd)_


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## Imurg (Jul 8, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Pedant alert. Is it not the Union Flag? It's only called a Jack when it's on a ship iirc.
		
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Apparently there is now some doubt as to the authenticity of that.....


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 8, 2017)

bobmac said:



''It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially.''
_Cdr Bruce Nicolls OBE RN (Retd)_

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Were you around then Uncle Bob ? &#128514;&#128514;&#128526;


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Were you around then Uncle Bob ? &#62978;&#62978;&#62990;
		
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I'll have you know I'm only 57 and 1/2


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Go to America and it is "spot the house without one".
		
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Probably including a gun toting resident as well.


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## palindromicbob (Jul 8, 2017)

Enough trouble over here with flegs now without me adding to it.  Some houses in my park have flag mounts on them and used to be a time about 20 years ago  when they would have had flags flown.


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## Beezerk (Jul 8, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Apparently there is now some doubt as to the authenticity of that.....
		
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I can't believe Blue Peter lied to me all those years ago :angry:


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## patricks148 (Jul 8, 2017)

We do have a flagpole, but i don't own a flag. The chap that had the house before us was a retired Brigadier


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So should we do the same?
		
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Americans have a level of blind patriotism that I'm not very comfortable with. Everyone having a flag is part of that. Flags are rare over here in domestic situations so that makes it quite quaint. I think I like it like that. Keep flags, on the whole, to official buildings. That's enough for me.


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## arnieboy (Jul 8, 2017)

I must be a pedant as it has always been and will always be the Union Jack to me.


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## IanM (Jul 8, 2017)

Funny how the local town hall will fly every flag going apart from that of the country it's sat in


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## Tashyboy (Jul 8, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Yes... Along with several other nations...

On my to do list when I retire is to get myself a proper flagpole...

A near[ish] neighbour flies a different flag nearly every day relating to an event/national day... Often have to go and google the flag flying to find out which flag it is and/or the reason why it might be flying...
		
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Got me aluminium one up at the moment, but when the pit shut I " acquired " the one that flew at the pit. Should of cost me five quid but I forgot to pay. Anyway it's still lay on its side on the back garden and is a project for me and Missis T to erect when she retires in two days time. Need a cleat for it where the rope attaches at the bottom. 
However as with most things in my life, it is not quite straightforward. Some miserable sod in authority has decreed that you are only allowed a flagpole of a certain length. The acquired one is to long. Which leaves me with two options, one cut it down. Two put it up then and stuff um. Option two looks to be the favourite.
God save the queen. That's me.


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## Dasit (Jul 8, 2017)

You would have your windows smashed in for showing any national pride in the city I live in



EDIT: English or British that is. Any other country you are fine


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## bigslice (Jul 8, 2017)

Each to their own it doesnt bother me. Me i will keep the red flag flying high


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## Fish (Jul 8, 2017)

I have a huge St George's cross off a ferry that's mahoosive and has been all over with Chelsea & England,  also a very large Red Hand Of Ulster, also got a large Royal flag with 3 golden Lions on as seen above Bucks house. 

Wouldn't have or own a Union Jack.


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## CliveW (Jul 8, 2017)

I trust you have read this....

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...chment_data/file/15438/flying_flags_guide.pdf


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## Liverbirdie (Jul 8, 2017)

Personally I buy into the British thing more than the English thing.


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## Tiger man (Jul 9, 2017)

Normally outside the home of a brexit voting whopper with a sofa in the garden.


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## Tarkus1212 (Jul 9, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			I do have one, at the moment the George cross is flying.

my pride and joy is a "Clifford" coat of arms flag that flew above skipton castle. Once they are battle weathered they flog um onto Joe Public.

PS, had a neighbour who lives five doors away say my flag pole rattles in the wind and is noisy. All the time we are talking his dog is barking its head off like it does most days.
		
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Tashy, when you've hoisted your flag wind the lanyard around the flagpole before securing it around the cleat - no more rattling. Can't help with the barking dog, sorry!

(I used to be a salesman for The House of Flags Ltd)


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## ScienceBoy (Jul 9, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Apparently there is now some doubt as to the authenticity of that.....
		
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Every fact has a lifespan, it is either disproven or becomes obsolete/out of date


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## Tashyboy (Jul 9, 2017)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Tashy, when you've hoisted your flag wind the lanyard around the flagpole before securing it around the cleat - no more rattling. Can't help with the barking dog, sorry!

(I used to be a salesman for The House of Flags Ltd)
		
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and that my friends is the post of the week.. Back in five mins. Ish.

Cheers tarkus.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 9, 2017)

Make that four mins, sorted &#128521;Cheers tarkus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2017)

The Union Flag?  Don't own one; wouldn't go out of my way to get hold of one, and can't think of any particular reason to fly one (especially as in Scotland it has an association with supporters one specific football club).   The Saltire or Lion Rampant of Scotland, yes I would, and have.


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Union Flag?
		
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No, the union Jack


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## Tarkus1212 (Jul 9, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Make that four mins, sorted &#62985;Cheers tarkus.
		
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My pleasure Tashyboy, hope friendly relations with your neighbour are restored


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2017)

bobmac said:



			No, the union Jack
		
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I don't think Hogan lives on a boat.

I love the Scottish Lion Rampant......that is a proper grown up flag.


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## Old Skier (Jul 9, 2017)

Beaten by a Dragon.


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## dewsweeper (Jul 9, 2017)

" Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel ."


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think Hogan lives on a boat.

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Post no. 16


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## HankMarvin (Jul 9, 2017)

Fish said:



			I have a huge St George's cross off a ferry that's mahoosive and has been all over with Chelsea & England,  also a very large Red Hand Of Ulster, also got a large Royal flag with 3 golden Lions on as seen above Bucks house. 

Wouldn't have or own a Union Jack.
		
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There are loads of Union Flags & Red Hand Of Ulster flags flying up here in Scotland, must be Marching Time.......

It sure is old and it is..............


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Go to America and it is "spot the house without one".
		
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I don't recall seeing any on my trips to the states.... plenty of Stars and Stripes though!


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## ScienceBoy (Jul 10, 2017)

&#127464;&#127462;The Canadarm flag flies at our house&#127464;&#127462;

Ok it's a tiny one stuck out a window but it's better than nothing.

&#127464;&#127462;&#127464;&#127462;&#127464;&#127462;


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## Hobbit (Jul 10, 2017)

I have a red warning flag for when HID is at home. And there's a hooter for when she is shot blasting


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 10, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't recall seeing any on my trips to the states.... plenty of Stars and Stripes though! 



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Ooooooo, turned into a smart Alec now :ears:. (well picked up though. The usual pedants will be very upset that they missed that one)


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ooooooo, turned into a smart Alec now :ears:. (well picked up though. The usual pedants will be very upset that they missed that one)
		
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It's not a new thing! 

#pedantgirl


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## User62651 (Jul 10, 2017)

Shame the Union Flag (Union Jack) is not appreciated more day to day, aside from whatever negative association and division within UK it may contribute to, as a flag in itself it's arguably the most recognizable and beautifully designed flag out there for grandness, colour, pattern, really strong brand for Britain. All these countries with their boring tricolours and plain crosses etc must be well jealous #flagenvy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Shame the Union Flag (Union Jack) is not appreciated more day to day, aside from whatever negative association and division within UK it may contribute to, as a flag in itself it's arguably the most recognizable and beautifully designed flag out there for grandness, colour, pattern, really strong brand for Britain. All these countries with their boring tricolours and plain crosses etc must be well jealous #flagenvy.

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I agree that it is indeed a very emblematic and rather beautiful flag in all it's simplicity of design.  Actually in the same sort of way as the Stars and Stripes.


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## Farneyman (Jul 10, 2017)

HankMarvin said:



			There are loads of Union Flags &* Red Hand Of Ulster* flags flying up here in Scotland, must be Marching Time.......

It sure is old and it is..............
		
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Great to see support for my fellow Republic of Ireland countrymen in Ulster. Remember Ulster is made up of 9 counties in total and not just the 6 in Northern Ireland. 

The red hand is also included in crest of the GAA county jerseys of Monaghan and Cavan. Not included in the Donegal crest.

As for the OP simple no.
:thup:


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## Mark_Aged_42 (Jul 10, 2017)

ScienceBoy said:



			Every fact has a lifespan, it is either disproven or becomes obsolete/out of date
		
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Is that a fact?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Shame the Union Flag (Union Jack) is not appreciated more day to day, aside from whatever negative association and division within UK it may contribute to, as a flag in itself it's arguably the most recognizable and beautifully designed flag out there for grandness, colour, pattern, really strong brand for Britain. All these countries with their boring tricolours and plain crosses etc must be well jealous #flagenvy.

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I think the Cuban flag is my favourite. For more facts about flags you need to tune into Sheldon Coopers online show, "Fun with Flags" :thup:

The Union Flag / Jack is not a great flag in terms of passing one of the unofficial key tests for a flag. Can it be easily reproduced by a child? As most Brits can not even get it the right way up, I have no idea which way it should be, then that is not a great start. The flag is not simple to replicate, too complicated. I know, let's have a referendum to choose a new flag. Anyone, anyone still there...................


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## Tarkus1212 (Jul 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know, let's have a referendum to choose a new flag. Anyone, anyone still there...................
		
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A plain white one?


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## USER1999 (Jul 10, 2017)

Tarkus1212 said:



			A plain white one?
		
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A red one?


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## Tarkus1212 (Jul 10, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			A red one?
		
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If Corbyn gets in


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## bobmac (Jul 10, 2017)

I was just wondering why the Americans are so proud of their flag and we generally aren't.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 10, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I was just wondering why the Americans are so proud of their flag and we generally aren't.
		
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Possibly because we are not 'one nation' and probably never will be...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I was just wondering why the Americans are so proud of their flag and we generally aren't.
		
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I am very proud of the Lion Rampant.


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## User62651 (Jul 10, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I was just wondering why the Americans are so proud of their flag and we generally aren't.
		
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Wander into the southern states and you wont see it so much, confederate flag still flies proud there. Division everywhere. America is less tolerant and less liberal than western European countries too, land of the free it is not.


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## User62651 (Jul 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am very proud of the Lion Rampant.
		
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Didn't take you for a Monarchist!


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## grumpyjock (Jul 10, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Do you have one fluttering about your house/shed/garage/kitchen drawer?
Do you even own one?
I don't mean the little ones that attach to you car window I mean the biggies

View attachment 23058


P.S.
This has nothing to do with Brexit
		
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Are you in difficulties or distress, as the Union Flag is flying upside down.
Yes I have a propper Union Jack, it flew on the Jack staff of the ship i was on at the 1977 Spithead review and was saluted by Her Majesty.
God Bless the Maid.


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## Old Skier (Jul 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Didn't take you for a Monarchist!
		
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Don't confuse him with facts.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 10, 2017)

Once went on a kids football trip to Italy just north of Milan. It was a trip I organised for my kids team. It was the second time we had gone to Italy and it had been a roaring success for the previous two years. It was all about social integration, cultures etc etc. Anyway the local council jumped on the bandwagon and who should end up coming on our visit but the local independant Mayor. He liked a drink. One night he had a few drinks in a good friends house and got up and made a speech thanking everyone. At the end he made a joke that the French had designed a new flag, a white cross on a white background. The silence was deafening. I had never felt so embarrassed in all my life at that time. About twenty minutes later a still good friend said " Tash, what does he really think about us Italians".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am very proud of the Lion Rampant.
		
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Me too.  Love it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Didn't take you for a Monarchist!
		
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:lol:

Looking forward to the long reign of King Charles 1st.


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## Old Skier (Jul 11, 2017)

Funny how some people accept some flags as ok but have associated other flags as racist.


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## ScienceBoy (Jul 11, 2017)

Mark_Aged_42 said:



			Is that a fact?
		
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Yes but I expect one day it will no longer be true.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I was just wondering why the Americans are so proud of their flag and we generally aren't.
		
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Its due to them being proud of their Country.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 11, 2017)

I think Americans are less questioning of their country and the decisions it makes. We question our media, our politicians, our military. Americans have a strong element of blind faith. I prefer our way.


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think Americans are less questioning of their country and the decisions it makes. We question our media, our politicians, our military. Americans have a strong element of blind faith. I prefer our way.
		
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I don't like our way either. It smacks of too many chiefs. Everyone and their dog, irrespective of their field of expertise, seem to want to be involved in the decision making. 

Make a point, have a vote and then let the experts work it out. I sometimes wonder if we're heading towards anarchy...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 11, 2017)

I'm not sure it's a need to be involved in decisions making. We question and have a healthy scepticism for our leaders and the people who act in our name. We do not blindly believe they are always correct, which they are often not. 

I think the term expert is very loosely bandied around and recent years have shown very clearly that experts are putting their fingers up in the wind a little bit more than people realise.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I don't like our way either. It smacks of too many chiefs. Everyone and their dog, irrespective of their field of expertise, seem to want to be involved in the decision making. 

Make a point, have a vote and then let the experts work it out. I sometimes wonder if we're heading towards anarchy...
		
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Which sums up why I feel we'll never see the B word ever actually happening...


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## bobmac (Jul 11, 2017)

Should kids be encouraged to be more patriotic at a young age?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Should kids be encouraged to be more patriotic at a young age?
		
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The opposite for me. Patriotism is a massively overated concept. Why would we promote more of it? Because by some stroke of luck you happened to be born one side of some imaginary line, than the other, that means what....


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## bobmac (Jul 11, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			The opposite for me. Patriotism is a massively overated concept. Why would we promote more of it? Because by some stroke of luck you happened to be born one side of some imaginary line, than the other, that means what....
		
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So if someone from Cheltenham was tied for the lead of The Open with an American, would you not support him?


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			The opposite for me. Patriotism is a massively overated concept. Why would we promote more of it? Because by some stroke of luck you happened to be born one side of some imaginary line, than the other, that means what....
		
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I'm inclined to agree but are a little stuck on the semantics. Patriotism and tribalism are almost one and the same in my eyes. Pride in something, yes, but patriotism... I find it harder to define.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Should kids be encouraged to be more patriotic at a young age?
		
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We should be encouraging working towards being more 'inclusive'...
One country and all that...


Instead we seem to be doing the exact opposite...


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So if someone from Cheltenham was tied for the lead of The Open with an American, would you not support him?
		
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If I knew him personally, yes. If I liked his personality more than the American, yes. I wouldn't just support him though because he happened to live nearby. I do think, however, that sports are an interesting one. I like to support team GB, because of thelink with the country. Would that make me patriotic? I don't know. I think Hobbit touches on an interesting point. In all honesty how I feel is probably a bit complex, more than I am able to quantify via text!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2017)

But why do people link patriotism with isilationism?

You can be patriotic and still respects others and their patriotism.

Being proud of your language, culture, history etc seems to be almost wrong these days.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Should kids be encouraged to be more patriotic at a young age?
		
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There is a very strong emphasis on British Values at schools nowadays. However that means things like inclusivity, fair play, respect for the rule of the law and not being 'patriotic' as such. I feel that is up to the individual and not something that should be taught at school.

Also I think in this country we have a nasty habit of defining our patriotism through the dislike of others.  Football is a prime example of this were as it is almost assumed that if you support England you must dislike Scotland. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic if that means you can also appreciate other countries/cultures.  However I feel there are too many people/groups in society who want to exploit patriotism for other nefarious reasons to forward their beliefs and agendas.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			We should be encouraging working towards being more 'inclusive'...
One country and all that...


Instead we seem to be doing the exact opposite...
		
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Who are the 'We'.   Is that all of us or those that are 'exclusive'.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Who are the 'We'.   Is that all of us or those that are 'exclusive'.
		
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Are we all not responsible without exclusion...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I was just wondering why the Americans are so proud of their flag and we generally aren't.
		
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-37841484/why-do-americans-love-their-flag


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## Liverbirdie (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			There is a very strong emphasis on British Values at schools nowadays. However that means things like inclusivity, fair play, respect for the rule of the law and not being 'patriotic' as such. I feel that is up to the individual and not something that should be taught at school.

Also I think in this country we have a nasty habit of defining our patriotism through the dislike of others.  Football is a prime example of this were as it is almost assumed that if you support England you must dislike Scotland. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic if that means you can also appreciate other countries/cultures.  However I feel there are too many people/groups in society who want to exploit patriotism for other nefarious reasons to forward their beliefs and agendas.
		
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Spot on, which is why I find most match going Ingurland fans embarrassing, or at least the vocal ones.

Always booing other teams anthems, the "bombers" song etc


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverbirdie said:



			Spot on, which is why I find most match going Ingurland fans embarrassing, or at least the vocal ones.

Always booing other teams anthems, the "bombers" song etc
		
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Booing other national anthems has pretty much died out now (amongst England football fans)   - but very much in evidence when Scotland or Wales hear "God save the Queen."  But I am advised that isn't offensive, it's just banter!


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## Tashyboy (Jul 11, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			But why do people link patriotism with isilationism?

You can be patriotic and still respects others and their patriotism.

Being proud of your language, culture, history etc seems to be almost wrong these days.
		
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This for me is spot on, respect is a two way street not one way. I have no problems what so ever in hoisting my Union Jack and all I feel it stands for, which includes all of the above and sticking up for the little man or country. 

Should patriotism be be taught in schools, without a shadow of doubt and why not. There is a massive differance in being a patriot of your country and what that means and shouting Ingerland at a football game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

I always struggle with the concept of being "proud of your country" - to me it seems at times some people demand that you show patriotism towards the land you were born on. 

To me a country make up is all about the people in the country - and it's all the good people in that country that people should feel pride about. 

I am proud of our NHS staff, the Police , Firemen and of course the Military and they are people I believe we all should feel thankful too or indeed anyone who does or have done something that makes our lives or indeed other people's lives a better place. 

It always comes up that because I was born England that means I should support the England football team - why ? Or indeed same with any sporting team. I have seen many times people who have been born in England but are Indian descent being criticised because they support India. It's ridiculous. Thankfully England etc isn't anywhere near as the good old USA.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			This for me is spot on, respect is a two way street not one way. I have no problems what so ever in hoisting my Union Jack and all I feel it stands for, which includes all of the above and sticking up for the little man or country. 

Should patriotism be be taught in schools, without a shadow of doubt *and why not*. There is a massive differance in being a patriot of your country and what that means and shouting Ingerland at a football game.
		
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Because it would be incredibly hard to create any sort of curriculum around being 'patriotic'.  The dictionary definition is 'is having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country' and to me why do we need to tell children that they should do that?  

As I said in a previous post they do teach kids nowadays British values which I feel is a much more encompassing concept relevant to 21st century Britain that all kids should have, instead of a fairly narrow definition which is patriotism.   Which could be open to all sorts of misinterpretation and would not be relevant in a lot of schools.


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## Papas1982 (Jul 11, 2017)

I don't think the concept of patriotism is a bad thing at all.

Unfortunately some people do hide racist motives behind it and therefor lots who are truly patriotic (as well as being open minded on multiculturalism) still get tarnished with the same brush. Which is just as bad imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			This for me is spot on, respect is a two way street not one way. I have no problems what so ever in hoisting my Union Jack and all I feel it stands for, which includes all of the above and sticking up for the little man or country. 

Should patriotism be be taught in schools, without a shadow of doubt and why not. There is a massive differance in being a patriot of your country and what that means and shouting Ingerland at a football game.
		
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What exactly do you teach when you teach someone to be patriotic?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because it would be incredibly hard to create any sort of curriculum around being 'patriotic'.  The dictionary definition is 'is having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country' and to me why do we need to tell children that they should do that?  

As I said in a previous post they do teach kids nowadays British values which I feel is a much more encompassing concept relevant to 21st century Britain that all kids should have, instead of a fairly narrow definition which is patriotism.   Which could be open to all sorts of misinterpretation and would not be relevant in a lot of schools.
		
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How far are British values from patrotism, to me it's pride and what we hold dear (values) as a nation, it seems patriotism is linked to extremism not tolerance and maybe that's were we should be pulling it back from.

On the sporting question, I want our english sports people to succeed and do well, you can appreciatte better teams or sports people, but actually wanting them to lose before the event beggars belief to me.

If we have no english representative my support goes to the rest of the home nations or in events like the olympics I support GB.

Nowhere does it mean I hate jonny foreigner or begrudge the better team winning, I just prefer to see our sports people succeed.


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## bobmac (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly do you teach when you teach someone to be patriotic?
		
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Support your sportsmen/women, buy Brittish, help your community, holiday in Britain, teach them our history (good and bad), respect the Royal family, police, NHS, use social media to promote Britain  etc


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How far are British values from patrotism, to me it's pride and what we hold dear (values) as a nation, it seems patriotism is linked to extremism not tolerance and maybe that's were we should be pulling it back from.

On the sporting question, I want our english sports people to succeed and do well, you can appreciatte better teams or sports people, but actually wanting them to lose before the event beggars belief to me.

If we have no english representative my support goes to the rest of the home nations or in events like the olympics I support GB.

Nowhere does it mean I hate jonny foreigner or begrudge the better team winning, I just prefer to see our sports people succeed.
		
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Well British values are defined in schools as democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith. So if you are defining patriotism as following the values that we hold dear as a nation then yes it is kind of the same thing.  But I think that your definition of patriotism is possibly not really what a lot of people would see it as, as to me patriotism can be quite narrow where as British values is more all encompassing. 

I think patriotism can express itself in an element of superiority over other nations and cultures, where as British values does not really, they are more saying 'these are our values, we are not saying they are the best but that's how we roll over here so you need to follow them if you want to be accepted'.  So theoretically you can be relatively unpatriotic (as I would probably be myself if we are talking English patriotism) but I strongly believe in adhering to British values as defined above.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Support your sportsmen/women, buy Brittish, help your community, holiday in Britain, teach them our history (good and bad), respect the Royal family, police, NHS, use social media to promote Britain  etc
		
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Help community , respecting others etc that's not patriotism that's just good manners regardless of what nationality someone is 

Buy British ? Holiday in Britian ? Supporting sports stars etc - why do we need to teach children that ? Going abroad helps develop an understanding on how the rest of the world is , and buying British ?! Would never want to tell someone to buy something just because of where it comes from.


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## HughJars (Jul 11, 2017)

Never. Ever.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well British values are defined in schools as democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith. So if you are defining patriotism as following the values that we hold dear as a nation then yes it is kind of the same thing.  But I think that your definition of patriotism is possibly not really what a lot of people would see it as, as to me patriotism can be quite narrow where as British values is more all encompassing. 

I think patriotism can express itself in an element of superiority over other nations and cultures, where as British values does not really, they are more saying 'these are our values, we are not saying they are the best but that's how we roll over here so you need to follow them if you want to be accepted'.*  So theoretically you can be relatively unpatriotic (as I would probably be myself if we are talking English patriotism) but I strongly believe in adhering to British values as defined above.*

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Summed up well


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Support your sportsmen/women, buy Brittish, help your community, holiday in Britain, teach them our history (good and bad), respect the Royal family, police, NHS, use social media to promote Britain  etc
		
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A lot of that such as community engagement, respect for the law is done through British values. And history is taught a lot in schools.  Telling people to holiday in the UK is a bit silly though as schools are not in the game of telling people how to spend their leisure time and also you could argue in a globally linked economy the more exposure kids today get of overseas cultures the better it will hold them in stead later on in life.   As for telling them to use social media to promote Britain then again not really sure schools should be in the game of telling kids to be unpaid interns for Visit Britain in their spare time. 

And are you planning to tell kids from all the different cultures that we have today to support British sports men/women or the sportspeople from where their families originated?  Will you make it mandatory that all schools in Nottingham to have to teach their kids to support Forest or County, all kids in Surrey to support Man U? Where will it end?


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## bobmac (Jul 11, 2017)

So your local community/village/town can go to hell...followed closely by Brittish manufacturers and the tourist industry?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			A lot of that such as community engagement, respect for the law is done through British values. And history is taught a lot in schools.  Telling people to holiday in the UK is a bit silly though as schools are not in the game of telling people how to spend their leisure time and also you could argue in a globally linked economy the more exposure kids today get of overseas cultures the better it will hold them in stead later on in life.   As for telling them to use social media to promote Britain then again not really sure schools should be in the game of telling kids to be unpaid interns for Visit Britain in their spare time. 

And are you planning to tell kids from all the different cultures that we have today to support British sports men/women or the sportspeople from where their families originated?  Will you make it mandatory that all schools in Nottingham to have to teach their kids to support Forest or County, all kids in Surrey to support Man U? Where will it end?
		
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Why does it matter were the parents of the sports people come from, if that person is wearing a GB vest then they qualify for GB and I hope they are proud of that, if it's merely a flag of convenience then they should be stopped.

I take your previous point about how patritism is perceived, but, again for me it's about reclaiming the word. Gay was used to describe a happy joyful person, use it now in the same context and you'd be risking insulting someone.

Why can't I believe in all the values you listed and still be patriotic?


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## CliveW (Jul 11, 2017)

IanM said:



			Booing other national anthems has pretty much died out now (amongst England football fans)   - but very much in evidence when Scotland or Wales hear "God save the Queen."  But I am advised that isn't offensive, it's just banter! 

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In Scotland, "God Save The Queen" is seen by some to be an anti Scottish anthem written in the 18th century, in particular, the fifth verse. I do however doubt many would be able to quote it if asked. 
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/u/uks+national+anthem/god+save+the+queen_20983467.html


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## bobmac (Jul 11, 2017)

CliveW said:



			In Scotland, "God Save The Queen"is seen by some to be an anti Scottish anthem written in the 18th century, especially the fifth verse.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/u/uks+national+anthem/god+save+the+queen_20983467.html

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The Archers theme music it is then


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## Imurg (Jul 11, 2017)

CliveW said:



			In Scotland, "God Save The Queen" is seen by some to be an anti Scottish anthem written in the 18th century, in particular, the fifth verse. I do however doubt many would be able to quote it if asked. 
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/u/uks+national+anthem/god+save+the+queen_20983467.html

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I wonder how many English people even know there are 5 verses to GSTQ, let alone the content of the last one.....
I didn't.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 11, 2017)

CliveW, the reality is no one ever gets past verse 1. The rest of the anthem is not ideal but then Flower of Scotland also is about a battle, against the English, conveniently forgotten when God Save the Queen is complained about, so no moral high ground there. If the British anthem was written again it would hopefully be very different. I'd change it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So your local community/village/town can go to hell...followed closely by *Brittish manufacturers *and the tourist industry?
		
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I think that is more down to government policy than what they teach in schools to be honest. 

As for community engagement then again that is part of British values, schools through the classroom or at governance level do a lot of work engaging in the local community and they encourage kids to get involved.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



*Why does it matter were the parents of the sports people come from,* if that person is wearing a GB vest then they qualify for GB and I hope they are proud of that, if it's merely a flag of convenience then they should be stopped.

I take your previous point about how patritism is perceived, but, again for me it's about reclaiming the word. Gay was used to describe a happy joyful person, use it now in the same context and you'd be risking insulting someone.

Why can't I believe in all the values you listed and still be patriotic?
		
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Think you misunderstood, not I did not explain very well. It is not the parents of the sportspeople I was referring to, it was the parents of the kids we are supposed to be teaching to respect their sports people.  So are we supposed to be teaching all kids to support British sports teams/people.  Or are we supposed to be teaching them to support the country they/ their parents/parent parent were born in? Or I suppose alternatively are we supposed to just forget it as it was a stupid suggestion to start with which I vote for. 

And of course you can believe in the British values and be patriotic (depending on your definition I suppose), they are not mutually exclusive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think you misunderstood, not I did not explain very well. It is not the parents of the sportspeople I was referring to, it was the parents of the kids we are supposed to be teaching to respect their sports people.  So are we supposed to be teaching all kids to support British sports teams/people.  Or are we supposed to be teaching them to support the country they/ their parents/parent parent were born in? Or I suppose alternatively are we supposed to just forget it as it was a stupid suggestion to start with which I vote for. 

And of course you can believe in the British values and be patriotic (depending on your definition I suppose), they are not mutually exclusive.
		
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Maybe I'm too simplistic, I just can't see why people can't embrace the here and now and the future while not forgetting their roots, kids can be taught by their parents their culture and traditions of were they came from, kids can be taught the same about Britain at school and if both are done correctly we hopefully produce a more tolerant and better British citizen for the future.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe I'm too simplistic, I just can't see why people can't embrace the here and now and the future while not forgetting their roots, kids can be taught by their parents their culture and traditions of were they came from, kids can be taught the same about Britain at school and if both are done correctly *we hopefully produce a more tolerant and better British citizen for the future*.
		
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Which is exactly the purpose of the British values initiative in schools.  It was brought about as a reaction to the increase in radicalisation, fundamentalism and extremism (both far right, Islamic and any other flavours you can think of).  Despite what some of the tabloids like to say on the headlines, there is a lot of very good work going on in schools to make us a more tolerant and inclusive society.  

To be honest it's not the schools or kids that are the problem, I'd argue in most cases the so called grown ups need to take a long hard look at themselves.  You can teach the kids all you can about this kind of thing but as soon as they are exposed to print media or web news sites or social media echo chambers or you tube videos then a lot of the hard work can get undone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So your local community/village/town can go to hell...followed closely by Brittish manufacturers and the tourist industry?
		
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Why would they ? If British manufacturers produced a product that is worth buying then people will buy it. But it's ridiculous to suggest that we should teach kids to buy British to be patriotic.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2017)

That's just the point Phil... we shouldn't, but it looks to me that we have actively been teaching the exact opposite since I left school....


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

IanM said:



			That's just the point Phil... we shouldn't, but it looks to me that we have actively been teaching the exact opposite since I left school....
		
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No we have not, there is nowhere in the national curriculum that tells anyone that you have to buy your cars from Germany or your phones from South Korea.  Or your putters from America as you do. People buy stuff because they see the value in it, that value may be based on price, quality, functionality, coolness,  whatever. But to expect a family, especially those struggling to make ends meet to ignore that and spend more on a product because it is British is both ridiculous and indeed patronising to them.  Successive governments have decided the shape of our economy and how we play in the global economy, and low cost manufacturing for a lot of consumer goods is not one of our strengths. 

If you want to get young people today to go more local/British then I'd suggest the environmental element is a better tactic.  Telling them that buying some UK/locally sourced meat from the local butchers as it has far fewer air miles would probably resonate more with them than telling them to buy it as her maj would be proud of them.


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## Twire (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would they ? *If British manufacturers produced a product that is worth buying then people will buy it.* But it's ridiculous to suggest that we should teach kids to buy British to be patriotic.
		
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I've been in manufacturing all my working life, we can produce as good if not better than anyone in the world, but price is king. When you're up against countries like China who not only subsidise their manufacturing their labour is a lot cheaper too, it's easy to see why our manufacturing is struggling.

Go to France, see what cars they drive, what wine they drink, what cheese they eat... I would call the French very patriotic.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			No we have not, there is nowhere in the national curriculum that tells anyone that you have to buy your cars from Germany or your phones from South Korea.  Or your putters from America as you do. People buy stuff because they see the value in it, that value may be based on price, quality, functionality, coolness,  whatever. But to expect a family, especially those struggling to make ends meet to
		
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...not what I meant.  I was referring to the generation in the workforce who for reasons I don't understand seem to think the flag of this country is a racist symbol, GB invented and perpetuated the slave trade, are the only country on the planet without its own identity or culture...  I had one plonker say to me "they were ashamed to be white!"


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

Twire said:



			I've been in manufacturing all my working life, we can produce as good if not better than anyone in the world, but price is king. When you're up against countries like China who not only subsidise their manufacturing their labour is a lot cheaper too, it's easy to see why our manufacturing is struggling.

Go to France, see what cars they drive, what wine they drink, what cheese they eat... I would call the French very patriotic.
		
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You could argue food and drink is not a great comparison as we drink plenty of British beer and eat plenty of fish and chips, cheddar cheese and yorkshire puddings over here. Even Chicken Tiika is a mostly British invention I think, at least the way we eat them.  And I am pretty sure if historically British wines were of the same quality as french ones then we'd drink gallons of that as well.  As for British cars then not really sure what options we have for cars made by British companies and manufactured in Britain?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

IanM said:



			...not what I meant.  I was referring to the generation in the workforce who for reasons I don't understand seem to think the flag of this country is a racist symbol, GB invented and perpetuated the slave trade, are the only country on the planet without its own identity or culture...  I had one plonker say to me "they were ashamed to be white!"
		
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I am not sure how many people really think the flag is a racist symbol? It could be that young people today are kind of less hung up on national identity as they have grown up in a more multicultural society and global economy. That is not to say they hate their country but may be identify less with being 'English', flying a union jack outside their house etc etc.  As for our colonialist past then there is an argument that we have not covered ourselves with glory at times and some may see the flag as a symbol for that.  Personally I think it is a long time in the past and people should look forwards, but that may still rankle with some who are stuck in the past.


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## Twire (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			You could argue food and drink is not a great comparison as we drink plenty of British beer and eat plenty of fish and chips, cheddar cheese and yorkshire puddings over here. Even Chicken Tiika is a mostly British invention I think, at least the way we eat them.  And I am pretty sure if historically British wines were of the same quality as french ones then we'd drink gallons of that as well.  As for British cars then not really sure what options we have for cars made by British companies and manufactured in Britain?
		
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I would argue it's a very good comparison. The point I was trying to make, is the French look after their own. If we had done the same many years ago we might still have a cor industry and a great manufacturing base.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly do you teach when you teach someone to be patriotic?
		
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This in a nutshell from what paul says.
How far are British values from patrotism, to me it's pride and what we hold dear (values) as a nation.



Our nation is built on the understanding of a changing world of sexual, religious, race and all things diverse. The acceptance of other cultures! Manners, family values, democracy whoever you vote for. 

That is being Patriotic to British values, it is what our nation has fought for through wars and the ballot box. Argue amongst yourselves re the small print but me flying the Union Jack stands for all things British.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			This in a nutshell from what paul says.
How far are British values from patrotism, to me it's pride and what we hold dear (values) as a nation.



Our nation is built on the understanding of a changing world of sexual, religious, race and all things diverse. The acceptance of other cultures! Manners, family values, democracy whoever you vote for. 

That is being Patriotic to British values, it is what our nation has fought for through wars and the ballot box. Argue amongst yourselves re the small print but me flying the Union Jack stands for all things British.





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That's all values though - you can still display all those traits but not be patriotic to GB/ England etc


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2017)

Loving your country is not something you can simply say is due to a) b) and c), you wouldn't be able to describe in simple terms why you love your Children, Wife, Family etc, it's something intrinsic in most people. Most people around the World would say they love their countries even though they are a lot less hospitable or habitable than ours.  IMO it's a very sad development when people have to ask why someone would want to love their country and be proud of it.

Regarding buying British.  Of course you don't have to but when you do you are supporting British jobs and helping the British economy, you are helping our people to not have to rely on benefits, food banks and the scourge of long term unemployment.   I have worked in countries like Germany and Japan where their first consideration is to purchase home made products and they also make sure that the quality of these products are good.   Buying cheap foreign products is a false economy unless it helps generate trade for countries in the underdeveloped World.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Loving your country is not something you can simply say is due to a) b) and c), you wouldn't be able to describe in simple terms why you love your Children, Wife, Family etc, it's something intrinsic in most people. Most people around the World would say they love their countries even though they are a lot less hospitable or habitable than ours.  IMO it's a very sad development when people have to ask why someone would want to love their country and be proud of it.

Regarding buying British.  Of course you don't have to but when you do you are supporting British jobs and helping the British economy, you are helping our people to not have to rely on benefits, food banks and the scourge of long term unemployment.   I have worked in countries like Germany and Japan where their first consideration is to purchase home made products and they also make sure that the quality of these products are good.   Buying cheap foreign products is a false economy unless it helps generate trade for countries in the underdeveloped World.
		
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Are you defining "buying British" as something just made in GB or it's also made by a British Company etc


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you defining "buying British" as something just made in GB or it's also made by a British Company etc
		
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I am suggesting something British made that supports British jobs.   Obviously there are many cases where you cant do this or it may be difficult, I am just saying that if you can then you are helping your fellow countrymen/Women with work.

If people don't agree with this type of thinking then would they support the NHS services being farmed out to foreign suppliers.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Loving your country is not something you can simply say is due to a) b) and c), you wouldn't be able to describe in simple terms why you love your Children, Wife, Family etc, it's something intrinsic in most people. Most people around the World would say they love their countries even though they are a lot less hospitable or habitable than ours.  IMO it's a very sad development when people have to ask why someone would want to love their country and be proud of it.

Regarding buying British.  Of course you don't have to but when you do you are supporting British jobs and helping the British economy, you are helping our people to not have to rely on benefits, food banks and the scourge of long term unemployment.   I have worked in countries like Germany and Japan where their first consideration is to purchase home made products and they also make sure that the quality of these products are good.   Buying cheap foreign products is a false economy unless it helps generate trade for countries in the underdeveloped World.
		
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:thup: Socket for primeminister


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## Tashyboy (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's all values though - you can still display all those traits but not be patriotic to GB/ England etc
		
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Why would you not want to though. Cannot see one reason why?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I am suggesting something British made that supports British jobs.   Obviously there are many cases where you cant do this or it may be difficult, I am just saying that if you can then you are helping your fellow countrymen/Women with work.

If people don't agree with this type of thinking then would they support the NHS services being farmed out to foreign suppliers.
		
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Well I reckon 95% of the country buy products made or built in the U.K. At some stage - but the majority of those products aren't made by British Companies but foreign companies that have based factories or distribution centres which also supports British people in jobs and the economy etc 

Normally the phrase "Buy British" refers to buying from a British Company based in GB etc 

Hence the clarification


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Why would you not want to though. Cannot see one reason why?
		
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Because not everyone is "patriotic" and display a blind pride in a bit of land and just because they were born there or their parents were


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I reckon 95% of the country buy products made or built in the U.K. At some stage - but the majority of those products aren't made by British Companies but foreign companies that have based factories or distribution centres which also supports British people in jobs and the economy etc 

Normally the phrase "Buy British" refers to buying from a British Company based in GB etc 

Hence the clarification
		
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Buying products that are manufactured in the UK but are foreign owned companies is fine as it is creating jobs for British workers, Honda and Nissan cars for example. Just having the products passing through a British warehouse is not what I am suggesting.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Buying products that are manufactured in the UK but are foreign owned companies is fine as it is creating jobs for British workers, Honda and Nissan cars for example. Just having the products passing through a British warehouse is not what I am suggesting.
		
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But those warehouses which are a great number employ thousands and thousands of people giving them jobs, helping the economy, stopping them needing to claim benefits , keeping the unemployment down


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## SatchFan (Jul 11, 2017)

I'm currently flying the Union Jack for our very own tennis heroine, Johanna Konta, born in Australia to Hungarian parents.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2017)

SatchFan said:



			I'm currently flying the Union Jack for our very own tennis heroine, Johanna Konta, born in Australia to Hungarian parents. 

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Exactly.   No one said patriotism had to be rational.    Shes one of ours now! Go Jo!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			This in a nutshell from what paul says.
How far are British values from patrotism, to me it's pride and what we hold dear (values) as a nation.



Our nation is built on the understanding of a changing world of sexual, religious, race and all things diverse. The acceptance of other cultures! Manners, family values, democracy whoever you vote for. 

That is being Patriotic to British values, it is what our nation has fought for through wars and the ballot box. Argue amongst yourselves re the small print but me flying the Union Jack stands for all things British.






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^^^Exactly, you can't portray and embrace all the values that make you British without being proud of those values and so by default being proud to be British


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But those warehouses which are a great number employ thousands and thousands of people giving them jobs, helping the economy, stopping them needing to claim benefits , keeping the unemployment down
		
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You are quite entitled to consider it that way, I would prefer those warehouses to have as many British made products as possible.   Please note that I have not suggested we never purchase foreign products.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			^^^Exactly, you can't portray and embrace all the values that make you British without being proud of those values and so by default being proud to be British
		
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OK, it's rate my patriotism time.

I always buy as much as I can from the local farm shop who farm from the fields around my house, I give up plenty of my time for free chairing the governing body of my local community school, I openly laughed when England lost to Iceland at football and was routing for Iceland in the final minutes, I thought Andy Murray winning Wimbledon for the 1st time was one of the greatest sporting achievements I will ever see and think the Olympic Team GB is the greatest sports team ever. 

My car is German, my phone is South Korean, my golf clubs are American and the 'Britishness' of produce does not impact my buying preferences in any way, but I am firm believer in supporting your local firms. Made in Nottingham over made in Spain every time, made in Swindon V made in Italy make no odds to me.  I passionately believe in the British values taught in schools nowadays but also thought we made a massive mistake when voting for Brexit and the whole process, especially the rise and perceived legitimacy of intolerant views by some, kind of brought shame on our nation. 

I thought the Olympic opening ceremony in 2012 was possibly the best show I have seen and summed up what is great about Britain, and for those few weeks we truly were Great Britain, I think the flying of union jacks outside houses is a bit naff and mostly assume that the occupants are little Englanders. I really enjoy going abroad on holiday, the fewer Brits around in football shirts drinking lager at 10 am and having a full English breakfast in 30 degree heat the better but also spend 2 holidays a year in the UK as I think we have some wonderful holiday location. I quite like the Royal family as absolutely superb tourist attraction but think once Liz goes then unless they go straight to Wills and Kate then the nation will lose a lot of affection for them. I also despise the Daily Mail's view of what the UK should be.  Am I patriotic??


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, it's rate my patriotism time.

I always buy as much as I can from the local farm shop who farm from the fields around my house, I give up plenty of my time for free chairing the governing body of my local community school, I openly laughed when England lost to Iceland at football and was routing for Iceland in the final minutes, I thought Andy Murray winning Wimbledon for the 1st time was one of the greatest sporting achievements I will ever see and think the Olympic Team GB is the greatest sports team ever. 

My car is German, my phone is South Korean, my golf clubs are American and the 'Britishness' of produce does not impact my buying preferences in any way, but I am firm believer in supporting your local firms. Made in Nottingham over made in Spain every time, made in Swindon V made in Italy make no odds to me.  I passionately believe in the British values taught in schools nowadays but also thought we made a massive mistake when voting for Brexit and the whole process, especially the rise and perceived legitimacy of intolerant views by some, kind of brought shame on our nation. 

I thought the Olympic opening ceremony in 2012 was possibly the best show I have seen and summed up what is great about Britain, and for those few weeks we truly were Great Britain, I think the flying of union jacks outside houses is a bit naff and mostly assume that the occupants are little Englanders. I really enjoy going abroad on holiday, the fewer Brits around in football shirts drinking lager at 10 am and having a full English breakfast in 30 degree heat the better but also spend 2 holidays a year in the UK as I think we have some wonderful holiday location. I quite like the Royal family as absolutely superb tourist attraction but think once Liz goes then unless they go straight to Wills and Kate then the nation will lose a lot of affection for them. I also despise the Daily Mail's view of what the UK should be. * Am I patriotic?*?  

Click to expand...

That's a question for you to answer.  It really is nothing to be ashamed about if you are though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, it's rate my patriotism time.

I always buy as much as I can from the local farm shop who farm from the fields around my house, I give up plenty of my time for free chairing the governing body of my local community school, I openly laughed when England lost to Iceland at football and was routing for Iceland in the final minutes, I thought Andy Murray winning Wimbledon for the 1st time was one of the greatest sporting achievements I will ever see and think the Olympic Team GB is the greatest sports team ever. 

My car is German, my phone is South Korean, my golf clubs are American and the 'Britishness' of produce does not impact my buying preferences in any way, but I am firm believer in supporting your local firms. Made in Nottingham over made in Spain every time, made in Swindon V made in Italy make no odds to me.  I passionately believe in the British values taught in schools nowadays but also thought we made a massive mistake when voting for Brexit and the whole process, especially the rise and perceived legitimacy of intolerant views by some, kind of brought shame on our nation. 

I thought the Olympic opening ceremony in 2012 was possibly the best show I have seen and summed up what is great about Britain, and for those few weeks we truly were Great Britain, I think the flying of union jacks outside houses is a bit naff and mostly assume that the occupants are little Englanders. I really enjoy going abroad on holiday, the fewer Brits around in football shirts drinking lager at 10 am and having a full English breakfast in 30 degree heat the better but also spend 2 holidays a year in the UK as I think we have some wonderful holiday location. I quite like the Royal family as absolutely superb tourist attraction but think once Liz goes then unless they go straight to Wills and Kate then the nation will lose a lot of affection for them. I also despise the Daily Mail's view of what the UK should be.  Am I patriotic??  

Click to expand...

Are you embarrassed to say you are English or British when abroad?

Saying you are or you are not patriotic doesn't come with a tick list.

Are there things I hate about this country? Damn right, am I embarrassed by some of the British behaviour abroad? Absolutely. Am I proud to British? Definitely, do I consider my self patriotic? Certainly.

I may not fit the mold some use when describing what being a patriot means to them, but that's their judgement.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you embarrassed to say you are English or British when abroad?

Saying you are or you are not patriotic doesn't come with a tick list.

Are there things I hate about this country? Damn right, am I embarrassed by some of the British behaviour abroad? Absolutely. Am I proud to British? Definitely, do I consider my self patriotic? Certainly.

I may not fit the mold some use when describing what being a patriot means to them, but that's their judgement.
		
Click to expand...

When I'm abroad I'm neither embarrassed or particularly proud to say I'm British. It's more a factual thing to me. I'm more proud of my home city.

I do not see myself as particularly patriotic with regards to Britain and especially England. But think I am more proud of my local community and where I live. So may be localism is more important to me than national patriotism.


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			When I'm abroad I'm neither embarrassed or particularly proud to say I'm British. It's more a factual thing to me. I'm more proud of my home city.

I do not see myself as particularly patriotic with regards to Britain and especially England. But think I am more proud of my local community and where I live. So may be localism is more important to me than national patriotism.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting point, and thought provoking. I've moved around a lot, living in several countries. I usually love where I live, and try and get involved locally, but when I move on it only becomes a memory. My affinity is where I am. Yet I'm a Middlesbrough supporter, the place of my birth, and an England/GB supporter when it comes to sports.

*Mmm, ruminates thoughtfully...*


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 12, 2017)

Re cheering on British or USA golfers...if the British player was a complete dork and the other was Tom Watson I know which one I would be cheering on.

It has nothing to do with to do with patriotic feelings.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Interesting point, and thought provoking. I've moved around a lot, living in several countries. I usually love where I live, and try and get involved locally, but when I move on it only becomes a memory. My affinity is where I am. Yet I'm a Middlesbrough supporter, the place of my birth, and an England/GB supporter when it comes to sports.

*Mmm, ruminates thoughtfully...*
		
Click to expand...

Ah but but.. my English daughter who has now lived in Scotland for 12 years jumped out of her chair with a loud YES and a fist pump when Scotland scored their second goal against England. Proud of that girl.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ah but but.. my English daughter who has now lived in Scotland for 12 years jumped out of her chair with a loud YES and a fist pump when Scotland scored their second goal against England. Proud of that girl.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have worked hard.


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## Old Skier (Jul 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ah but but.. my English daughter who has now lived in Scotland for 12 years jumped out of her chair with a loud YES and a fist pump when Scotland scored their second goal against England. Proud of that girl.
		
Click to expand...

Is this the same daughter that you mentioned in a previous post as having represented England (not Scotland).


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ah but but.. my English daughter who has now lived in Scotland for 12 years jumped out of her chair with a loud YES and a fist pump when Scotland scored their second goal against England. Proud of that girl.
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry Doon. With counselling and medication she should recover


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## backwoodsman (Jul 13, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Do you have one fluttering about your house/shed/garage/kitchen drawer?
Do you even own one?
I don't mean the little ones that attach to you car window I mean the biggies


P.S.
This has nothing to do with Brexit
		
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Returning to the original post. No, l don't own a Union flag one and no l don't fly one. Anyone who knows me, knows that l am proud to be British and knows whether or not l am patriotic. I have no need to advertise the fact indiscriminately to those who do not know me.


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