# Reducing carbon emissions



## Tashyboy (Oct 18, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58959045

A step in the right direction but what’s the average cost, will it work with an average radiator system. Thoughts from those in the know appreciated


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## Reemul (Oct 19, 2021)

Isn't the cost around £15k. The average person struggles to pay to replace a standard boiler let alone spending 15k.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Isn't the cost around £15k. The average person struggles to pay to replace a standard boiler let alone spending 15k.
		
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Next door changed their boiler about 2 months ago. It was a Baxi, 10yr warranty. £1,800 fitted. How can you expect people to add a zero onto that, approx, whilst also being told that the new boilers won't get your house as warm, you may need additional radiators etc. They are currently the equivalent of electric cars, nowhere near practical for most.

Our boiler is 12 years old and so we know we are in the zone where it may need to be changed at some point in the near future. I'd love to go heat pump, as I'd love to go electric car, but financially it just doesn't enter the equation. The heat in winter is also troubling, it gets cold here 😳.

Hopefully we have some installers on here who can put our minds at rest.


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58959045

A step in the right direction but what’s the average cost, will it work with an average radiator system. Thoughts from those in the know appreciated
		
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Utter pie in the sky. £6-18k, that's just lip service, nobody is paying that for a boiler


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## bobmac (Oct 19, 2021)

''It is hoped no new gas boilers will be sold after 2035.''
Which to me, means I can still buy one in 2035 and keep it for 20 years by which time I'll be 95.
Having said that, I'm sure the boffins will come up with an affordable alternative in the next 5 years or so.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2021)

I saw this last night and thought brilliant, a step in the right direction. However one piece I read. It says running costs will be comparable to a normal gas boiler. 😳 So I pay £10-15K ( less £5k ) for a boiler that cost the same to run as a gas boiler. 😳


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 19, 2021)

If it costs the same to run as a gas boiler then for the sake of the planet etc it is something we should do, I.e change from gas .
But.....how do they think people can afford installation? The fact is, they can't.
Like someone said, it's the electric car scenario.

Bottom line
Until the boffins bring down the initial cost, it won't happen. 

I believe they will bring it down, pressured by the Government.
I read that at the moment that you need planning permission for the installation 😳
That'll have to go for a starters!

But the planet cannot afford an attitude that dismisses these initiatives.
As Lincoln said, "As our case is new, we must think anew. "


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If it costs the same to run as a gas boiler then for the sake of the planet etc it is something we should do, I.e change from gas .
But.....how do they think people can afford installation? The fact is, they can't.
Like someone said, it's the electric car scenario.

Bottom line
Until the boffins bring down the initial cost, it won't happen.

I believe they will bring it down, pressured by the Government.
I read that at the moment that you need planning permission for the installation 😳
That'll have to go for a starters!

But the planet cannot afford an attitude that dismisses these initiatives.
As Lincoln said, "As our case is new, we must think anew. "
		
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One of the reasons it will cost the same is because of the “ green” levy on electricity. My concern is with the country going to electric cars and boilers can we produce that much electricity. Furthermore the subsidies will cover the cost of 90,000 boilers yet the government wants 600,000 a year being installed by 2028.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If it costs the same to run as a gas boiler then for the sake of the planet etc it is something we should do, I.e change from gas .
But.....how do they think people can afford installation? The fact is, they can't.
Like someone said, it's the electric car scenario.

Bottom line
Until the boffins bring down the initial cost, it won't happen.

I believe they will bring it down, pressured by the Government.
I read that at the moment that you need planning permission for the installation 😳
That'll have to go for a starters!

But the planet cannot afford an attitude that dismisses these initiatives.
As Lincoln said, "As our case is new, we must think anew. "
		
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it comes under permitted development. providing its just one heat pump , not bigger than a certain amount, positioned not over a pitched roof and not within 1 m of a boundary then its fine

the costs are very very high. however thats extreme cases.. their are heat pumps that are cheaper.. think 18k is top top cost.. like when electric cars are quoted its a telsa.. you can get them on screw fix for like 5k but need the fitting costs

one thing i think thats understated is with a combi you dont have a hot water tank.. heat pumps look set to return to (all be it smaller and more effient) tanks of hot water again.. I mean space for one

id love one.. ill look at it when the kitchen is for renewal in like 15 years as that where the boiler is and the boiler will be 17 years old by then so least it will make sense to look into

the air con i had fitted this year doubles up as a heat pump for the winter.. been using it to heat the downstairs from 3am-6am when electric is cheaper .. costs less than 25p for both units to run but the downstairs is nice and warm for the girls when we they get up

ground source heat pumps cost more and prob will be the ones needed in much colder places like scotland.. however they work in the antartic etc so it is proven tech just as you say costs need to drop

by time the ban comes in the prices will be much more compariable


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## jim8flog (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			it comes under permitted development. providing its just one heat pump , not bigger than a certain amount, positioned not over a pitched roof and not within 1 m of a boundary then its fine
		
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 Where I live their is no permitted development. Conservation area. Although it gets ignored by my neighbour.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			One of the reasons it will cost the same is because of the “ green” levy on electricity. My concern is with the country going to electric cars and boilers can we produce that much electricity. Furthermore the subsidies will cover the cost of 90,000 boilers yet the government wants 600,000 a year being installed by 2028.
		
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yes and no.. we need the micro nuclear plants up and running.. their in the pipeline but not yet.. once their running we become more sustainble 

we now have a high speed cable to norway to trade our wind power for their hyrdro power.. however these cables are amazing but the fire on the french one (our side) has proven that if it goes down costs skyrocket so we need to make sure we produce enough at home as well as get some in from europe 

my dream is heat pump
batteries on house (50kw would do)
induction hob
solar 

then I could run my house without relaying on the grid too much..

guy that came into work to fix the CCTV last week was telling me about his set up.. he has 32kw battery he bought from an written off merc.. built into storage. with inverters .. cost about 5k to set up.. he uses the cheap electric to charge the batteries slowly at night and then uses them to power his house during the day.. thats brilliant and much less strain on the grid

id like to have that kind of set up but with solar on my loft roof to feed into the batteries aswell so that im not just using the grid

money ofc is the issue. thats a lot of cash .. 

could bin off gas tho!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Where I live their is no permitted development. Conservation area. Although it gets ignored by my neighbour.
		
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very good point


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## jim8flog (Oct 19, 2021)

One of the points I have heard in past is that ground source pumps only work really well with underfloor heating. Is it the same with Air Source heat pumps?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			One of the points I have heard in past is that ground source pumps only work really well with underfloor heating. Is it the same with Air Source heat pumps?
		
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They work with normal radiators aswell just not as efficient, basically you need your house to be well isolated for them to be effective

You will need them on longer than gas ones to get the temp right 

Newbuilds they work wonders in as you got good insulation and maybe underfloor heating 

But like a converted old church. Fire up the wood burner


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## BiMGuy (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			''It is hoped no new gas boilers will be sold after 2035.''
Which to me, means I can still buy one in 2035 and keep it for 20 years by which time I'll be 95.
Having said that, I'm sure the boffins will come up with an affordable alternative in the next 5 years or so.
		
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Which is fine as long as you can afford the gas to run it.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 19, 2021)

Also include the amount of electricity required to run a heat pump. 

Its reckoned that you would spend roughly the same amount on electricity as you currently use on gas.

Do heat pumps use a lot of electricity? | Viessmann 

We looked into installing into the MIL in West Cumbria but the efficiency of her current radiators and the level on insulation she has fitted made it pointless.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			yes and no.. we need the micro nuclear plants up and running.. their in the pipeline but not yet.. once their running we become more sustainble

we now have a high speed cable to norway to trade our wind power for their hyrdro power.. however these cables are amazing but the fire on the french one (our side) has proven that if it goes down costs skyrocket so we need to make sure we produce enough at home as well as get some in from europe

_*my dream is heat pump
batteries on house (50kw would do)
induction hob
solar*_

then I could run my house without relaying on the grid too much..

guy that came into work to fix the CCTV last week was telling me about his set up.. he has 32kw battery he bought from an written off merc.. built into storage. with inverters .. cost about 5k to set up.. he uses the cheap electric to charge the batteries slowly at night and then uses them to power his house during the day.. thats brilliant and much less strain on the grid

id like to have that kind of set up but with solar on my loft roof to feed into the batteries aswell so that im not just using the grid

money ofc is the issue. thats a lot of cash ..

could bin off gas tho!
		
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I already have solar, and I have looked at getting batteries my problem is finding the right company to come in and give the right advice re a set up.


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## bobmac (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			my dream is heat pump
batteries on house (50kw would do)
*induction hob*
solar
		
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https://www.thewrightbuy.co.uk/hobs...m-4-zone-touch-control-induction-hob-in-white


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



https://www.thewrightbuy.co.uk/hobs...m-4-zone-touch-control-induction-hob-in-white

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Looks great. Something to consider. We have a great oven ATM tho.. double range style thing with massive hob attached so once kitchen is done at end of that's life I'll defo be looking into what you posted 

Once get the wife used to it will be fine!


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## chrisd (Oct 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I already have solar, and I have looked at getting batteries my problem is finding the right company to come in and give the right advice re a set up.
		
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Are you trying to offset the damage from all that coal you dug up over the years 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I already have solar, and I have looked at getting batteries my problem is finding the right company to come in and give the right advice re a set up.
		
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That seems to be the massive issue. Companies ..

Like this guy is clued up on wiring.. built it himself and done it for 5k.. that's a reasonable amount.. I mean 4 years time he breaks even.. even quicker now electric has risen as the electric car tariff is 6 hours at 5p now and much much higher in day so he would be able to use only the 5p rather than the 25p times 

But companies get involved and charge stupid money for less 

Telsa (don't get me wrong amazing tech) is it 10k per 12kw battery? That's so much .. if they did a 50kw battery for like 15k least that would be considerable for long term saving 

Solar I really wanted but the wife said no it's too ugly.. excellent ... Sod the planet then


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## fundy (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



https://www.thewrightbuy.co.uk/hobs...m-4-zone-touch-control-induction-hob-in-white

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sooner we get an induction hob again the better, cant stand cooking on the "old style" hob having got used to induction


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



https://www.thewrightbuy.co.uk/hobs...m-4-zone-touch-control-induction-hob-in-white

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Im afraid I haven’t seen an induction hob that doesn’t have 9 power levels.
What might have been a better option to show, would have been the Bosch/Neff ones that are plug and play, ie run on a 13a plug so don’t need to be hard wired into a 32a circuit at minimum. That is perfect for those removing a gas hob who just have the hob ignition running on a 13a plug(as they should be)


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## jim8flog (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They work with normal radiators aswell just not as efficient, basically you need your house to be well *isolated* for them to be effective
		
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 I live in a detached house is that good enough?


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## jim8flog (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But like a converted old church. Fire up the wood burner
		
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I thought wood burners were getting banned for the same reason ie carbon emissions.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I thought wood burners were getting banned for the same reason ie carbon emissions.
		
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Isn't it what you burn on them? Has to be a certain thing that's fine and others aren't 

I can't remember but I saw something about it


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## bobmac (Oct 19, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Im afraid I haven’t seen an induction hob that doesn’t have 9 power levels.
What might have been a better option to show, would have been the Bosch/Neff ones that are plug and play, ie run on a 13a plug so don’t need to be hard wired into a 32a circuit at minimum. That is perfect for those removing a gas hob who just have the hob ignition running on a 13a plug(as they should be)

Click to expand...

Do Bosch or Neff sell white induction hobs?
I only linked that one because it's the one I'm considering to replace my current induction hob which is hard wired.
But if you want a plug in........
https://www.myappliances.co.uk/Econolux-ART29208-60cm-13a-Plug-ECOboost-White-Induction-Hob


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## BiMGuy (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it what you burn on them? Has to be a certain thing that's fine and others aren't

I can't remember but I saw something about it
		
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Yes, there is/will be legislation dictating what you can burn.

I'd be happy to see them gone altogether.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Yes, there is/will be legislation dictating what you can burn.

I'd be happy to see them gone altogether.
		
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We have one here. Never used it..assume it works

Guy who sold me the house said how brilliant it was in the winter etc 

With the dog , then the kids it's just sat unused for the last 7 years


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## cliveb (Oct 19, 2021)

Seeing that BBC article made my heart sink.
I think the government has made a hasty political decision intended to boost its green credentials without considering the downsides:
1. Air source heat pumps only work if your house is properly insulated, otherwise they eat electricity at eye-watering levels.
2. Air source heat pumps don't heat the water to anywhere near as high a temperature as a gas boiler. This means you need a much higher flow rate around your radiators. But the microbore piping that's been used for the last few decades won't support it, so will have to be ripped out and replaced with wider bore piping.
3. Air source heat pumps tend to be rather noisy. If everyone has one, we'll be living in a world of cacophony.

Bottom line is that the housing stock of the UK is not currently suitable for widescale adoption of air source heat pumps.
(Don't known enough about ground source heat pumps to comment).

If the government is keen on subsidising something that will reduce the carbon footprint of domestic heating, the best use of that money would be for insulation. That way you'll reduce energy usage regardless of whether you have a gas boiler, heat pump, storage heaters, or whatever. Once the UK housing stock is properly insulated, THEN start thinking about new heating methods. Problem is that those Insulate Britain clowns have probably made it politically difficult to go down this route, as it might make such groups believe that this kind of direct action works.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it what you burn on them? Has to be a certain thing that's fine and others aren't

I can't remember but I saw something about it
		
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If you burn anything it causes a problem. Some things are less polluting than others, damp wood is the biggest enemy, but nothing is clean to burn. It is just a scale of how bad.


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## fundy (Oct 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you burn anything it causes a problem. Some things are less polluting than others, damp wood is the biggest enemy, but nothing is clean to burn. It is just a scale of how bad.
		
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are some woods better/worse than others or is moisture content the main issue? (as we are starting to get a build up of "firewood" from clearing the back jungle we have bought)


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2021)

fundy said:



			are some woods better/worse than others or is moisture content the main issue? (as we are starting to get a build up of "firewood" from clearing the back jungle we have bought)
		
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I'm not an expert but I believe it is moisture content that is the problem. If you store it for long enough it dries out then becomes a less polluting option. You can get a device that you stick into the wood that tells you the moisture level. I think the recommended time is around 6 months to dry out (this is well over the top but I think they build in that people will cheat and go early).

The big problem is people buying newly cut, damp wood and then burning it within days or a few weeks. This is cheaper to buy. The new legislation, I think, means the sellers will have to store and dry it out before selling.

In your case, cut it up, put it in a wood storage place and leave it be for 6 months. You can use it eventually but you will need to buy wood in the meantime.

I don't have a log burner but I know plenty who do and you pick things up . Log burner owners are like BBQ enthusiasts. They love to talk wood, where to find bits for free etc. There is always someone cutting down a tree, golf clubs for example, and that can keep you going for ages. I'm in a rural area with lots of trees around and so it is often a conversation I overhear or am stood listening to.


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## fundy (Oct 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm not an expert but I believe it is moisture content that is the problem. If you store it for long enough it dries out then becomes a less polluting option. You can get a device that you stick into the wood that tells you the moisture level. I think the recommended time is around 6 months to dry out (this is well over the top but I think they build in that people will cheat and go early).

The big problem is people buying newly cut, damp wood and then burning it within days or a few weeks. This is cheaper to buy. The new legislation, I think, means the sellers will have to store and dry it out before selling.

In your case, cut it up, put it in a wood storage place and leave it be for 6 months. You can use it eventually but you will need to buy wood in the meantime.

I don't have a log burner but I know plenty who do and you pick things up . Log burner owners are like BBQ enthusiasts. They love to talk wood, where to find bits for free etc. There is always someone cutting down a tree, golf clubs for example, and that can keep you going for ages. I'm in a rural area with lots of trees around and so it is often a conversation I overhear or am stood listening to.
		
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cheers LT

as well as the jungle the garden came with 2 sheds we dont really need, so one of them is currently the woodstore


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## Neilds (Oct 19, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Seeing that BBC article made my heart sink.
I think the government has made a hasty political decision intended to boost its green credentials without considering the downsides:
1. Air source heat pumps only work if your house is properly insulated, otherwise they eat electricity at eye-watering levels.
2. Air source heat pumps don't heat the water to anywhere near as high a temperature as a gas boiler. This means you need a much higher flow rate around your radiators. But the microbore piping that's been used for the last few decades won't support it, so will have to be ripped out and replaced with wider bore piping.
3. Air source heat pumps tend to be rather noisy. If everyone has one, we'll be living in a world of cacophony.

Bottom line is that the housing stock of the UK is not currently suitable for widescale adoption of air source heat pumps.
(Don't known enough about ground source heat pumps to comment).

If the government is keen on subsidising something that will reduce the carbon footprint of domestic heating, the best use of that money would be for insulation. That way you'll reduce energy usage regardless of whether you have a gas boiler, heat pump, storage heaters, or whatever. Once the UK housing stock is properly insulated, THEN start thinking about new heating methods. Problem is that those Insulate Britain clowns have probably made it politically difficult to go down this route, as it might make such groups believe that this kind of direct action works.
		
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They are discussing this on Radio 2 at the moment.  The points above have been mentioned, along with one of the experts admitting he is currently walking around his house with a padded jacket on as the heat is not as good as with a conventional boiler.  I can't see people wanting to splash out thousands on a new heating system, to then have to wrap up in coats to keep warm!
I understand that technology (and costs) will improve in time but I won't be rushing to change any time soon


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

Neilds said:



			They are discussing this on Radio 2 at the moment.  The points above have been mentioned, along with one of the experts admitting he is currently walking around his house with a padded jacket on as the heat is not as good as with a conventional boiler.  I can't see people wanting to splash out thousands on a new heating system, to then have to wrap up in coats to keep warm!
I understand that technology (and costs) will improve in time but I won't be rushing to change any time soon
		
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I'm going to monitor mine this winter for sure..the heat pump side of the air con gets the room so toasty very quickly so we do 30 mins when the kids go bed to get their rooms warm and it lasts a while 

Downstairs bigger space so takes longer 

I wonder if I could get a heat pump just for the hot water .. because these suit my needs fantastically tbh 

Imagine no radiators aswell. Be great


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I wonder if I could get a heat pump just for the hot water .. because these suit my needs fantastically tbh

Imagine no radiators aswell. Be great
		
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Would you not be able to get some form of standalone water heater rather than get a heat pump just for that. It would still be heated by electric? An old school immersion heater that most of us have had removed and replaced by a combi boiler in effect.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Would you not be able to get some form of standalone water heater rather than get a heat pump just for that. It would still be heated by electric? An old school immersion heater that most of us have had removed and replaced by a combi boiler in effect.
		
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Probably do an more efficient version now days .. might be worth looking into

I mean the air con covers most the house and if I left upstairs open it would heat more of house lol


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Probably do an more efficient version now days .. might be worth looking into

I mean the air con covers most the house and if I left upstairs open it would heat more of house lol
		
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It's ironic that immersion heaters were removed for being inefficient, you were heating large amounts of water 'just in case' and even if you only needed a sink full. We are now going to have to have fitted a form of these again as the air source pump does not get water hot enough. Progress


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## jim8flog (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I wonder if I could get a heat pump just for the hot water .. because these suit my needs fantastically tbh
		
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To my knowledge you do not need any sort of pump for hot water just tubes stuck on the side or roof of the house passing the water through an immersion tank. The water naturally circulates as it heats up.

This system was available long before Solar Panels.

One of the houses in a nearby road has so many of these tubes that I wonder if he is using the system to heat the house as well.


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Do Bosch or Neff sell white induction hobs?
I only linked that one because it's the one I'm considering to replace my current induction hob which is hard wired.
But if you want a plug in........
https://www.myappliances.co.uk/Econolux-ART29208-60cm-13a-Plug-ECOboost-White-Induction-Hob

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Hardly anyone does white cooking equipment now for the reason hardly anyone wants it.
My only reason for saying about 13a plug and play is that most people wouldnt have the needed 32/45A circuit ready a full blown induction hob needs if they have a gas hob currently in situ as that would only require a 13a socket to power the ingnition.
If you want a white hob, be my guest. Personally I don't like them and think they look tired much quicker than the black glass.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Do Bosch or Neff sell white induction hobs?
I only linked that one because it's the one I'm considering to replace my current induction hob which is hard wired.
But if you want a plug in........
https://www.myappliances.co.uk/Econolux-ART29208-60cm-13a-Plug-ECOboost-White-Induction-Hob

Click to expand...

Bit misleading that, the thing says it is a 13a plug in jobby but the words say to wire it to a Switched spur. Also it’s reduced to 2.8Kw If you look at the real rating of each zone it’s 6.8Kw so in its reduced state you are not going to be cooking anything in a hurry.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Bit misleading that, the thing says it is a 13a plug in jobby but the words say to wire it to a Switched spur. Also it’s reduced to 2.8Kw If you look at the real rating of each zone it’s 6.8Kw so in its reduced state you are not going to be cooking anything in a hurry.
		
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I wont be cooking anything on it as mine is hard wired.
I was just advertising the fact that you don't need to buy the boring black hobs any more.
I won't bother next time


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I wont be cooking anything on it as mine is hard wired.
I was just advertising the fact that you don't need to buy the boring black hobs any more.
I won't bother next time
		
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White is now such a rare colour for cooking appliances, that even pre pandemic most manufacturers were minimising their white offerings and even stopping altogether as the consumer was very much stainless steel for most things cooking side and black glass for ceramic hobs. Post pandemic it’s fair to say even the smattering of white offerings have been cancelled or at least had their production suspended.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			White is now such a rare colour for cooking appliances, that even pre pandemic most manufacturers were minimising their white offerings and even stopping altogether as the consumer was very much stainless steel for most things cooking side and black glass for ceramic hobs. Post pandemic it’s fair to say even the smattering of white offerings have been cancelled or at least had their production suspended.

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White does look dated these days to be fair


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			White does look dated these days to be fair
		
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I wouldn’t disagree.
Now,  those that might do a white offering also have a surcharge on them because of the colour, just as when stainless steel first came out it had a surcharge on them because it wasn’t white, black or brown.


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## Crazyface (Oct 20, 2021)

All this talk of saving the planet and all the money the people of the UK are expected to shell out, is all well and good, but surely it pales into significance when you look at really densely populated places like India, America and China pump out into the air.  It's all cobblers knoblers.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 20, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			All this talk of saving the planet and all the money the people of the UK are expected to shell out, is all well and good, but surely it pales into significance when you look at really densely populated places like India, America and China pump out into the air.  It's all cobblers knoblers.
		
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So basically what you’re saying is that as long as others are being bad we might as well be bad too?

Rather than try and lead the way and show that it can be done by way of being a richer, more developed nation than, say, India.

Not sure the if everyone doesn’t act, no one should act view is all that sustainable.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So basically what you’re saying is that as long as others are being bad we might as well be bad too?

Rather than try and lead the way and show that it can be done by way of being a richer, more developed nation than, say, India.

Not sure the if everyone doesn’t act, no one should act view is all that sustainable.
		
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Too right. For every one person who can / is self sustainable ie panels , batteries, heat pumps etc etc makes a difference no matter how small 

To steal from Tesco 

Every little helps


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## cliveb (Oct 20, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			All this talk of saving the planet and all the money the people of the UK are expected to shell out, is all well and good, but surely it pales into significance when you look at really densely populated places like India, America and China pump out into the air.  It's all cobblers knoblers.
		
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It's true that unless the likes of China and the USA do something to reduce their emissions, the whole planet is doomed.
But don't forget that Europe also pumps out a great deal of CO2, and Britain as part of Europe (geographically) has its part to play.

But the world is driven by economics (especially in the USA). Once renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels (which they pretty much are) AND once the problems of storage and large-scale production/deployment are sorted, the change will come. Let's just hope it happens in time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So basically what you’re saying is that as long as others are being bad we might as well be bad too?

Rather than try and lead the way and show that it can be done by way of being a richer, more developed nation than, say, India.

Not sure the if everyone doesn’t act, no one should act view is all that sustainable.
		
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right now 99.9% of people who are doing all the “sustainable” stuff will be doing it for financial reasons as opposed to any “green” reason 

So when all these tax reliefs and subsidies “disappear” imo it will be interesting to see what happens then


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## GreiginFife (Oct 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			right now 99.9% of people who are doing all the “sustainable” stuff will be doing it for financial reasons as opposed to any “green” reason 

So when all these tax reliefs and subsidies “disappear” imo it will be interesting to see what happens then
		
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Regardless of the driver, what’s important is that it is happening. 
One of the biggest reasons for moving to renewable sources (aside from environmental) is cost.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			right now 99.9% of people who are doing all the “sustainable” stuff will be doing it for financial reasons as opposed to any “green” reason
		
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That's a pretty strong statement
Can you back that up with any facts/figures or is your statement just based on a gut feeling?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Regardless of the driver, what’s important is that it is happening.
One of the biggest reasons for moving to renewable sources (aside from environmental) is cost.
		
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As i said - right now it’s fine as a driver but the question is what happens when those “extras” or tax breaks etc are removed or stopped 



bobmac said:



			That's a pretty strong statement
Can you back that up with any facts/figures or is your statement just based on a gut feeling?
		
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It’s just my feeling from when speaking to people who have got electric cars etc etc. 

They are happy to admit they get an electric car because of the tax breaks it gives them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Seeing that BBC article made my heart sink.
I think the government has made a hasty political decision intended to boost its green credentials without considering the downsides:
1. Air source heat pumps only work if your house is properly insulated, otherwise they eat electricity at eye-watering levels.
2. Air source heat pumps don't heat the water to anywhere near as high a temperature as a gas boiler. This means you need a much higher flow rate around your radiators. But the microbore piping that's been used for the last few decades won't support it, so will have to be ripped out and replaced with wider bore piping.
3. Air source heat pumps tend to be rather noisy. If everyone has one, we'll be living in a world of cacophony.

Bottom line is that the housing stock of the UK is not currently suitable for widescale adoption of air source heat pumps.
(Don't known enough about ground source heat pumps to comment).

*If the government is keen on subsidising something that will reduce the carbon footprint of domestic heating, the best use of that money would be for insulation. *That way you'll reduce energy usage regardless of whether you have a gas boiler, heat pump, storage heaters, or whatever. Once the UK housing stock is properly insulated, THEN start thinking about new heating methods. Problem is that those Insulate Britain clowns have probably made it politically difficult to go down this route, as it might make such groups believe that this kind of direct action works.
		
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Whether or not you agree with their means of drawing attention to the ’cause’, it is clear that the Insulate Britain  protestors (I do not consider them clowns, they are activists) are 100% right…_their_ cause is actually _our_ cause and us just hanging around waiting for the government to come up with something on the insulation front is not good enough.  We should all be loudly demanding a government strategy and action plan to get us all properly insulated - if they have now published one I missed it.  Then, as suggested,  we can start worrying about the affordability of heat pumps for everyone.  At least now we are all, well most of us, fully aware of why Insulate Britain are as exercised over the matter as they are…

I have little time for an argument that says a government can’t do the right thing and take action because protestors demanding that action were right all along. After all, was that not what the poll tax riots were all about.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As i said - right now it’s fine as a driver but the question is what happens when those “extras” or tax breaks etc are removed or stopped
		
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You're working on an assumption that they will stop and nothing will replace them.

Sea changes are about small adoptive behavioural changes that enable that big change. I don't know many electric car owners or people that have gone solar panel routes who would actively seek to regress to previous behaviours just because they weren't getting free road tax.

In many cases, it's probable (and you will note I say probable as I simply don't know and would not purport my opinion as fact) that in the event that incentives are removed we will be upon or beyond dates of "no return" for bans etc.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s just my feeling from when speaking to people who have got electric cars etc etc.

They are happy to admit they get an electric car because of the tax breaks it gives them.
		
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So this statement of 99.9% is just plucked out of the air and is not based on anything factual.
And as for saving taxes....
If you are talking about vehicle tax, my present car costs £30 per year
If I bought an electric car for £5,000 more than a petrol/diesel equivalent, it would take £166 years to break even.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			...
And as for saving taxes....
If you are talking about vehicle tax, my present car costs £30 per year
*If I bought an electric car for £5,000 more than a petrol/diesel equivalent, it would take £166 years to break even.*

Click to expand...

Tax is not the only saving! Just *another* incentive!
Fuel cost is (likely to be) far more significant! Though could also cost more, so research (and possible additional investment) should be done by potential purchaers!


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As i said - right now it’s fine as a driver but the question is what happens when those “extras” or tax breaks etc are removed or stopped
...
		
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Hopefully, government(s) will only wind the incentives down once manufacturers are producing so few fossil-fueled vehicles that the 'cost balance' shifts to make them uncompetitive. Plus they could also apply 'penalties' to fossil-fueled vehicles as an additional disincentive.

On the negative side of electric vehicles.....
Currently, most of UK's electricity is still produced from fossil fuels! So until electricity generation is replaced by 'renewables', the overall effect of movement to electric vehicles is reduced!


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## Whereditgo (Oct 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58959045

A step in the right direction but what’s the average cost, will it work with an average radiator system. Thoughts from those in the know appreciated
		
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A few pointers that may be useful to note:

The hot water produced from heat pumps is considerably lower (circa 40 deg C) than the hot water produced from a conventional boiler, because of this most manufacturers are producing hybrid boilers to supplement the heat with a gas fired heater.

Just utilising heat emitters that were designed for a conventional boiler heating system will not give the required heat output, even if the system is left to run longer, so for a heat pump system to function effectively the heat emitters would need to be replaced and possibly the distribution pump and pipe work system, again adding to the installation costs.

Ground source heat pumps are massively more expensive to install than air source and the jury is out on their long term efficiency, unless there is a large water source (think river or lake) that can be utilized, the reason being that the ground needs to ‘re-charge’ which may not happen until summer.

Air source heat pumps become dramatically less efficient as the outdoor ambient temperature drops, beware the manufacturers quoted output figures which are typically at unrealistic operating temperatures. Once the ambient air temperature approaches freezing, the system will go into a defrost cycle with increasing frequency, particularly in the UK with the relatively high humidity in winter months.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Hopefully, government(s) will only wind the incentives down once manufacturers are producing so few fossil-fueled vehicles that the 'cost balance' shifts to make them uncompetitive. Plus they could also apply 'penalties' to fossil-fueled vehicles as an additional disincentive.

On the negative side of electric vehicles.....
Currently, most of UK's electricity is still produced from fossil fuels! So until electricity generation is replaced by 'renewables', the overall effect of movement to electric vehicles is reduced!
		
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Interesting article here 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/inside.../ice-vs-ev-inefficient-combustion-engine/amp/

Ev are far more efficient at using energy than ice cars .. so even if the grid took forever to switch the efficiency of the cars would mean less fuel used to travel 

Average ice 40% efficient
Ev 86%

Apparently a 33kw battery is the same energy as a gallon (us gallon) of fuel .. so let's go with 45mpg for sake of argument 33kw is roughly 120 miles 

So in a Ice car the theory is for the same energy you go under half the distance .. 

However an ice car can go a hell of a lot further it just holds more "energy" for want of a better word

The grid change is happening slowly but is happening 

Norway cable is complete that will get us hydro power from them 

Ideal word everyone has a battery on their house with solar and charges from them but this isn't an ideal world


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## cliveb (Oct 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether or not you agree with their means of drawing attention to the ’cause’, it is clear that the Insulate Britain  protestors (I do not consider them clowns, they are activists) are 100% right…_their_ cause is actually _our_ cause and us just hanging around waiting for the government to come up with something on the insulation front is not good enough.
		
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I called them clowns because while the point they are making is right, the way they've gone about it has been catastrophically counter-productive.
They've made enemies of large numbers of the general public. I really believe they've actually harmed their cause through their actions.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			...
Ideal word everyone has a battery on their house with solar and charges from them but this isn't an ideal world
		
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I'm pretty certain this will gradually become the norm. However, the manufacturing process (currently) is not exactly environmentally friendly! This needs to be improved in order to 'complete' the conversion to renewables. 
But the entire industry is very young - effectively only about a decade or so old. Compare that with the internal combustion based industry of a similar age, compared to now, and it should be obvious what sort of progress can be made!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2021)

The call for these new heating and driving technologies tend to be made and enacted by the well off, people with low incomes (and there are a great deal of them)  couldn't afford any of the systems being discussed here, also you can't have ground source heat pumps etc in a high rise apartment block unless the system is massive and unaffordable.

We need a plan that allows everyone in the country/world to be able to tap in to environment friendly and affordable forms of heating and transport; otherwise it's going to be another plan like solar panels that make the lives of the better off easier and the poor having to subsidise it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2021)

cliveb said:



			I called them clowns because while the point they are making is right, the way they've gone about it has been catastrophically counter-productive.
They've made enemies of large numbers of the general public. I really believe they've actually harmed their cause through their actions.
		
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They may well have done…however anyone with a brain now listening to the discussions on heat pumps to replace gas boilers, and now understanding that house insulation must come first - will realise that that their intent of drawing public attention to the criticality and urgency of the insulation pre-requisite through disruption was actually valid, even if the means was so very disruptive; that especially being the case given that the long term impact of the road protests is for the vast majority of us not lasting in any significant way if at all, yet the urgency for us all is great.  We are now fully aware if we so choose to become so.

But of course I fully accept that the inconvenience and impact for a few may have been significant, and that is very unfortunate.  I would hope that Insulate Britain understand that they have made their point and that that point is now widely understood, and so do not need to resume their road protests.


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## Pants (Oct 20, 2021)

When I was a lad many, many years ago, I learnt that petrol was a by-product of fractional distillation of petroleum and, if it wasn't for the internal combustion engine (and other types of engines designed to use it as fuel), it would basically be a waste product with few other uses.  I think that that is still the case today?? 
What is going to happen to all the billions of litres of petrol being produced if no longer needed?  Pour it away??  Burn it - oh, hang on ...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2021)

Pants said:



			When I was a lad many, many years ago, I learnt that petrol was a by-product of fractional distillation of petroleum and, if it wasn't for the internal combustion engine (and other types of engines designed to use it as fuel), it would basically be a waste product with few other uses.  I think that that is still the case today??
What is going to happen to all the billions of litres of petrol being produced if no longer needed?  Pour it away??  Burn it - oh, hang on ...



Click to expand...

Leave it in the ground.


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## Pants (Oct 20, 2021)

But then you won't have butane, propane, naphtha, paraffin, diesel, lubricating oils, fuel oil, bitumen, etc.  All "distilled" at the same time as the petrol (gasoline) from your crude oil.

As I said,  petrol is a by-product of the process and if it isn't going to be used in ice's then most of it is waste.

Of course, I could well be wrong about this - it was rather a long time ago and memory sometimes plays tricks.  I'm sure there are some on here who will put me right.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2021)

Pants said:



			...
As I said,  petrol is a by-product of the process and if it isn't going to be used in ice's then most of it is waste.
		
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My understanding is that about 75% of petroleum becomes/is gasoline or diesel - so not 'by-products! It's the other products of the process (e.g ethane, butane, propane) that will need to be found/made elsewhere as/when petroleum extraction is reduced. There's already indications/evidence that these can be produced biologically, so while cost may rise, I'm certain that there will be alternative sources available before petroleum sources dry up!
Of course, phasing out coal driven electricity production is an even more urgent requirement! According to stats I've seen, 40% of US CO2 emissions are from electricity production, of which 90-95% is from coal driven plants! 'Only' 33% of US CO2 emission is from transportation of goods/people. The burning of coal produces huge amounts of other pollurion too! France and Germany (though not Poland) are actually dramatically reducing coal driven electricity production.


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## woofers (Oct 21, 2021)

I can’t argue with the sentiment about “doing our bit” but the UK efforts will be insignificant in global terms until China, USA, India and Brazil (deforestation?) take decarbonisation seriously. 
In the meantime we should also spend and prepare for dealing with the effects of climate change, be that new build or better maintenance of existing infrastructure. If it is coming let’s be ready.


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## srixon 1 (Oct 21, 2021)

Reading this thread had me wondering how much pollution we give of after we have made our final putt and the lid has been closed. A bit of a long read, but who would have known that there are so many different ways of getting to the next place in a way that gives off less CO2 than the fiery furnace.
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.u...2019/11/environmental-toll-cremating-dead/amp


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## bobmac (Oct 21, 2021)

I know it's easy to have a swipe at other countries but I think China is trying to change...

''China is the world’s hungriest consumer of energy worldwide — demanding the energetic equivalent of almost 3.3 billion tonnes of oil last year. Since 2011, it has burnt more coal than all other countries combined. And its reliance on this fossil fuel adds up: China emits around one-quarter of the world’s greenhouse gases, the largest share of any country. 
China is also the world’s most prolific producer of wind energy, with the capacity to make more than twice as much as the second-largest generator, the United States. And it has about one-third of the world’s solar-generation capacity, building more systems last year than any other country.''

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02464-5


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2021)

Kaz said:



			When these future bans are mooted does anyone else do mental arithmetic to work out if they’ll still be alive or if they can just ignore it.....?
		
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Thanks for cheering me up Kaz


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## spongebob59 (Oct 21, 2021)

Spoke to our local heating engineer over the fence last night, said hydrogen/gas hybrid will come in before heat pumps, although he wasn't sure of the wisdom in using electricity to generate gas and then burn it 🤣


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2021)

For those who are all over this type of thing:

We have very thick loft insulation (snow on the roof does not melt prematurely for example and if I go in the loft the temp change is marked)
The wall cavities were done before we moved in 12 year ago
The windows are double glazed
There are no obvious drafts
The boiler is a modern combi although 11yrs old

With all the chat about insulation, are we missing anything? I don't think we are but I wanted to double check in case something new has sneaked in to the game.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			For those who are all over this type of thing:

We have very thick loft insulation (snow on the roof does not melt prematurely for example and if I go in the loft the temp change is marked)
The wall cavities were done before we moved in 12 year ago
The windows are double glazed
There are no obvious drafts
The boiler is a modern combi although 11yrs old

With all the chat about insulation, are we missing anything? I don't think we are but I wanted to double check in case something new has sneaked in to the game.
		
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See if you can get hold of a thermal imaging camera and point it at your house. 

Double glazing is good, but the frames can be leaky depending on how well they were fit. Thermal bridging is an issue in older DG. 

There comes a point where the gains aren't worth the cost or effort.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			For those who are all over this type of thing:

We have very thick loft insulation (snow on the roof does not melt prematurely for example and if I go in the loft the temp change is marked)
The wall cavities were done before we moved in 12 year ago
The windows are double glazed
There are no obvious drafts
The boiler is a modern combi although 11yrs old

With all the chat about insulation, are we missing anything? I don't think we are but I wanted to double check in case something new has sneaked in to the game.
		
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We have much the same insulation except no cavity wall insulation.
But the wife defeats the purpose , she opens windows and doors for fresh air especially before during and after cooking.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



*See if you can get hold of a thermal imaging camera and point it at your house.*

Double glazing is good, but the frames can be leaky depending on how well they were fit. Thermal bridging is an issue in older DG.

There comes a point where the gains aren't worth the cost or effort.
		
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Every so often the tv will show a house that uses one of these and it shows the weak spots, as you describe. It looks a great idea but it isn't the sort of thing you can easily get hold of, I actually have no idea how you could. 

We do have large full length windows in the living room that we are thinking of getting replaced by bricks halfway up then windows. Full length windows have the potential to leak heat but obviously that gizmo would confirm this, or not.


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## yandabrown (Oct 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Every so often the tv will show a house that uses one of these and it shows the weak spots, as you describe. It looks a great idea but it isn't the sort of thing you can easily get hold of, I actually have no idea how you could.

We do have large full length windows in the living room that we are thinking of getting replaced by bricks halfway up then windows. Full length windows have the potential to leak heat but obviously that gizmo would confirm this, or not.
		
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I'd never thought of it either, a quick google search shows that you can hire one for about £70 for the day (not too bad but not cheap either):

https://www.red-current.com/thermal-imaging-camera-hire
https://www.jewson.co.uk/p/flir-i3-thermal-imaging-camera-JTH07250
Are 2 sites that were near the top of the results.

My house is a 100 year old converted bungalow, whilst the insulated double walls and double glazed windows might not be too bad, I imagine that the roof will be glowing with just some of that cellotex stuff between the rafters :-(  Not sure what else can be done about that?


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## cliveb (Oct 21, 2021)

This recent report makes for depressing reading:

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/10/20/...renewables-warn-french-government-scientists/

Brief summary: as oil becomes more difficult to extract, it's taking more and more energy to get it out of the ground, and therefore becomes less and less economic to produce. Within 15 years, the oil industry will begin to collapse because nobody will be able to afford to buy their product. The same is happening to natural gas, albeit somewhat more slowly.

Good thing, you might conclude. But the problem is that this could happen so fast that we end up in a world with limited energy supply and, as a result, no ability to build renewable replacements.

Ironically, this could mean that the global economy collapses before the climate apocalypse happens.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2021)

cliveb said:



			This recent report makes for depressing reading:

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/10/20/...renewables-warn-french-government-scientists/

Brief summary: as oil becomes more difficult to extract, it's taking more and more energy to get it out of the ground, and therefore becomes less and less economic to produce. Within 15 years, the oil industry will begin to collapse because nobody will be able to afford to buy their product. The same is happening to natural gas, albeit somewhat more slowly.

Good thing, you might conclude. But the problem is that this could happen so fast that we end up in a world with limited energy supply and, as a result, no ability to build renewable replacements.

Ironically, this could mean that the global economy collapses before the climate apocalypse happens.
		
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That a very informative and thought provoking article.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2021)

cliveb said:



			This recent report makes for depressing reading:

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/10/20/...renewables-warn-french-government-scientists/

Brief summary: as oil becomes more difficult to extract, it's taking more and more energy to get it out of the ground, and therefore becomes less and less economic to produce. Within 15 years, the oil industry will begin to collapse because nobody will be able to afford to buy their product. The same is happening to natural gas, albeit somewhat more slowly.

Good thing, you might conclude. But the problem is that this could happen so fast that we end up in a world with limited energy supply and, as a result, no ability to build renewable replacements.

*Ironically, this could mean that the global economy collapses before the climate apocalypse happens.*

Click to expand...

Or that _sensible_ authorities recognise the problem and accelerate the development of alternatives!

Certainly adds to the incentive to develop those alternatives! Hopefully, that article can be taken up by better recognised media (it's little more than a group blog with a fancy front) and convince some of those who are in positions to act to avert the perceived 'armageddon'!


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 21, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They may well have done…however anyone with a brain now listening to the discussions on heat pumps to replace gas boilers, and now understanding that house insulation must come first - will realise that that their intent of drawing public attention to the criticality and urgency of the insulation pre-requisite through disruption was actually valid, even if the means was so very disruptive; that especially being the case given that the long term impact of the road protests is for the vast majority of us not lasting in any significant way if at all, yet the urgency for us all is great.  We are now fully aware if we so choose to become so.

But of course I fully accept that the inconvenience and impact for a few may have been significant, and that is very unfortunate.  I would hope that Insulate Britain understand that they have made their point and that that point is now widely understood, and so do not need to resume their road protests.
		
Click to expand...

So you consider that the disruption was valid, do you?
That they have educated people and changed minds, do you think🙄

Are you choosing not to think about the instances where their actions have impacted lives.  Critical appointments missed, the consequences of which are unknown to us, but may have been devastating to the impacted's futures.
Reports of a stroke victim now paralysed because of delay getting to hospital, dialysis missed. I don't know if these are true reports or not, but I can imagine ( unlike you, seemingly), that there were many very serious consequences of their actions that we won't hear about ( not newsworthy).

How many of us did not know beforehand about these serious climate issues?

How many of us would decline to have these heaters fitted, if it were practical for us.? ( many on here have pointed out some serious obstacles, one or more of which will make it a non starter for most)
And how many of the disrupters went home and ordered these heaters, notwithstanding the problems we have since been familiarised with?

They were out of order in what they did. It was just too much disregard for others , innocent others, safety and wellbeing, and therefore not to be praised in the slightest.


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## greenone (Oct 21, 2021)

We built our house 3 years ago. Plumbing including ground source cost ~33k. About 4k more than it would have been to put in an oil system. Rhi payments over 7 years basically pays for the system. Electric bill is around 150pm. Still have a wood burner and gas hob for power cuts so we still have some heating/cooking source.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2021)

[QUOTE="Swinglowandslow, post: 2413163, member: 25384"
*And how many of the disrupters went home and ordered these heaters, notwithstanding the problems we have since been familiarised with?*
[/QUOTE]

Two of their spokespeople have been outed during interviews as having appalling energy efficiency ratings for their own homes!

One issue associated with adding insulation in cavity walls to existing constructions is the potential to cause internal damp.  Much as I find the idea of increasing insulation attractive, I'd need  definitive proof that it wouldn't cause more problems than it solved.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			[QUOTE="Swinglowandslow, post: 2413163, member: 25384"
*And how many of the disrupters went home and ordered these heaters, notwithstanding the problems we have since been familiarised with?*

Click to expand...

Two of their spokespeople have been outed during interviews as having appalling energy efficiency ratings for their own homes!

One issue associated with adding insulation in cavity walls to existing constructions is the potential to cause internal damp.  Much as I find the idea of increasing insulation attractive, I'd need  definitive proof that it wouldn't cause more problems than it solved.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is a concern. Cavity wall insulation is a gamble. No guarantee is given that damp will not result , and AFAIK, once done it cannot be undone?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, that is a concern. Cavity wall insulation is a gamble. No guarantee is given that damp will not result , and AFAIK, once done it cannot be undone?
		
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I believe if it is the polybeads they can potentially be sucked out with an industrial vacuum, (basically reversing the installation) but if it is foam I believe you're stuck with it.


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 22, 2021)

My house was built in 1921, and whilst it has cavity walls, when I enquired about having cavity wall insulation the survey revealed my damp course is too low to allow cavity insulation without bringing damp into the property.
Rather than banning the replacement of existing gas boilers for heat pumps, they could have legislated that all new builds be heat pump with the necessary insulation levels from the word go.
That would have been a sensible way forward which in time would have lead to many older houses going to heat pump themselves.
But hey, what do I know


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My house was built in 1921, and whilst it has cavity walls, when I enquired about having cavity wall insulation the survey revealed my damp course is too low to allow cavity insulation without bringing damp into the property.
Rather than banning the replacement of existing gas boilers for heat pumps, they could have legislated that all new builds be heat pump with the necessary insulation levels from the word go.
That would have been a sensible way forward which in time would have lead to many older houses going to heat pump themselves.
But hey, what do I know

Click to expand...

Fully agree, subsidising retrofitting whilst not legislating for new builds seems to me to be the very definition of madness. It would make more sense to subsidise improved insulation and heat pumps in new builds than to invest in retrofits with the inevitable additional expense entailed.  Or am I missing something?


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Fully agree, subsidising retrofitting whilst not legislating for new builds seems to me to be the very definition of madness. It would make more sense to subsidise improved insulation and heat pumps in new builds than to invest in retrofits with the inevitable additional expense entailed.  Or am I missing something?
		
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## larmen (Nov 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			my dream is heat pump
batteries on house (50kw would do)
…
solar

then I could run my house without relaying on the grid too much..
		
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In my most recent YouTube spiral I came across home batteries for the 1st time. Tesla Powerwall as a starter, then to more reasonable products ;-)
But trying to google solar pannels seems to be a minefield. How would one find a reasonable source/installer for that? Batteries seem easy compared to that. The main battery issue seems to be a suitable space in a house without garage. Some systems are hallway pretty, some are garage ugly.

We have a our 8m long south(ish) facing roof available, so it could be a goer if it makes some sense. We use about 12 kWh a day on average over the last 12 months, not too much variety.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 7, 2021)

Solar panels have been the best investment I have ever had. If you are having them fitted, I would get a couple or three companies in. Re what it will produce, bottom line it’s down to the quality of panels you have. When I had mine fitted, the expected return was not down to the company’s figures but it depended on the panels, angle of the roof and the position they were facing. Mine are south facing and as good as you can get. Every company should give you the same return figures based on that.The only thing different would then be the installation costs.
I was tipped off a good few years ago about batteries being the future, but was advised not to buy them 4 or 5 years ago as battery technology would kick on and costs would reduce. Am not to sure the latter has happened. My biggest problem is finding a specialist company that A, would install batteries and B, as you mention where to stick it.


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## bobmac (Nov 8, 2021)

I spoke to a fitter last week who suggested to wait till next year for the solar panels as there are rumours of a new feed in tariff or government incentive


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## pauljames87 (Nov 8, 2021)

larmen said:



			In my most recent YouTube spiral I came across home batteries for the 1st time. Tesla Powerwall as a starter, then to more reasonable products ;-)
But trying to google solar pannels seems to be a minefield. How would one find a reasonable source/installer for that? Batteries seem easy compared to that. The main battery issue seems to be a suitable space in a house without garage. Some systems are hallway pretty, some are garage ugly.

We have a our 8m long south(ish) facing roof available, so it could be a goer if it makes some sense. We use about 12 kWh a day on average over the last 12 months, not too much variety.
		
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Wouldn't know where to start but I know the wife said no to them because "their ugly" ok babe ... Sod the planet 

So doing what I can 



Switched the dishwasher and washing machine to this smol company as you can see above (9 day trail ATM)  I've done some carbon saving .. (plus other bits)

Meat free days with the food 

If the majority of people made a few switches would make a huge difference


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## larmen (Nov 8, 2021)

In an ideal world with unlimited funds it would be solar roof tiles, available from others as well as Tesla. Looks more or less the same as a normal roof.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Wouldn't know where to start but I know the wife said no to them because "their ugly" ok babe ... Sod the planet

So doing what I can

View attachment 39399

Switched the dishwasher and washing machine to this smol company as you can see above (9 day trail ATM)  I've done some carbon saving .. (plus other bits)

Meat free days with the food

If the majority of people made a few switches would make a huge difference
		
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We have been using SMOL for a while now. They clean just as well as the regular products, there is no compromise involved


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## pauljames87 (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We have been using SMOL for a while now. They clean just as well as the regular products, there is no compromise involved 

Click to expand...

I just stumbled accross them on insta and thought give a go

Biggest stumbling block is the wife lol she was apprehensive about the change for washing only for the smell as she likes what we use (Surf tropical lily) but one wash she smelt and goes oh no I like that 

So the change is made 

And the dishwasher ones have been as good so like you say no compromise


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## sweaty sock (Nov 8, 2021)

I really wonder if people know whats involved here.  Some useful info.  An entire human life in the western world produces the same carbon as around 1 second of global energy production.  Think how many seconds of energy production reducing your carbon footprint by tenths of a percent once your in your 50's does.

The carbon cost of the entire life of a car, from raw material to disposal of scrap, is equivalent to the carbon used laying 6 feet of road.  Think how many road works are currently ongoing in UK.  How many roads need laid in africa?!

Many entire countries, Australia for example, most of the middle east, have economy's entirely based on fossil fuel.  Should coal be illegal tomorrow, Australia is instantly a 3rd world country, with no healthcare, welfare, infrastructure maintenance only education available must be funded privately. If the Aussie PM did that do you think the population would cheer and vote them back in.  Or would there be a military coup tomorrow morning and coal back on ships by tomorrow lunchtime...

If we're planning on making a significant difference, pouring plastic between your bricks is so far down the list of priorities as to be laughable.

If we do what it looks like we must, then the modern lifestyle is 100% unsustainable. Thats why nobody does anything about it, its such a huge change governments cant even begin to recommend it. 

And no, I dont have any answers.


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## bobmac (Nov 8, 2021)

If we stop burning stuff, that would help.
Of course it's not going to stop overnight, but we have to start somewhere.
Or we could just say it's not my problem and leave it for future generations to sort out.

Australia is a good example of improvement...

_''In 2020, 24% of Australia’s total electricity generation was from renewable energy sources, including solar (9%), wind (9%) and hydro (6%)._ ''


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## sweaty sock (Nov 8, 2021)

Australia is a good example, they are still the worlds second largest exporter of coal with 70% of the coal they dig being exported.  

So even if they are using wind, solar and hydro, they're digging and transporting as much coal as ever.  The fact they're letting someone else burn it is immaterial to climate change.


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## Foxholer (Nov 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If we stop burning stuff, that would help.
Of course it's not going to stop overnight, but we have to start somewhere.
Or we could just say it's not my problem and leave it for future generations to sort out.

Australia is a good example of improvement...

_''In 2020, 24% of Australia’s total electricity generation was from renewable energy sources, including solar (9%), wind (9%) and hydro (6%)._ ''
		
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Good to see Aus improving (up from 21% prev year), but I wouldn't consider it a 'good' example in the first place. It still produces most (54%) of its electricity from coal - and exports coal for other countries to produce electricity from too!
Compare that to its itty bitty neighbour across the Tasman, where over 80% of electricity production is from renewables (primarily hydro). The other, nearly 20% but reducing, is from coal.


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## bobmac (Nov 8, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Should coal be illegal tomorrow, Australia is instantly a 3rd world country, with no healthcare, welfare, infrastructure maintenance only education available must be funded privately.
		
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I didn't deny they burn a lot of coal, the point I was making is they have made a start, just like China.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I didn't deny they burn a lot of coal, the point I was making is they have made a start, just like China.
		
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They havent though, they are digging just as much coal.  They're just selling a higher percentage than they used to...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2021)

We just have to find alternatives to coal, oil and gas for producing energy, we also need to find ways to reduce demand for energy.    There's nothing like crisis for sharpening minds and pushing people into taking action.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We just have to find alternatives to coal, oil and gas for producing energy, we also need to find ways to reduce demand for energy.    There's nothing like crisis for sharpening minds and pushing people into taking action.
		
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Correct. Anyone in the know re nuclear fusion. Is it likely ever to be feasible and if so, soon or not?


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## adam6177 (Nov 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Correct. Anyone in the know re nuclear fusion. Is it likely ever to be feasible and if so, soon or not?
		
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We (the UK) already produce 21% of our energy from nuclear power.  Rolls Royce are currently looking to build several small reactors that would power 6,000,000 homes and there is a large reactor being built (Hinkley Point C ) that would produce a whole lot more.

Solar and wind will never be enough, nuclear is the future of "clean" energy but comes with mining risks and disposal risks.


+Edit... Got my numbers a bit squiffy. Hinckl y is 6m and rolls Royce is 1m


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Correct. Anyone in the know re nuclear fusion. Is it likely ever to be feasible and if so, soon or not?
		
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Certainly plans to build a prototype fusion reactor, Moorside up here (basically land next to Sellafield) is one of 5 sites 'bidding' to be the location.

I believe a decision could be made as early as late next year, construction from 2024 and peak operations around 2040.


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## cliveb (Nov 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Correct. Anyone in the know re nuclear fusion. Is it likely ever to be feasible and if so, soon or not?
		
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I seem to recall that 30 years ago, fusion was "30 years away".
Today, it's "30 years away".
Draw your own conclusions.

FWIW, I think that by the time anyone nails fusion, we'll have solved the problem of storage and transportation that is holding back the large scale deployment of already feasible types of renewables (ie. solar & wind). There's more than enough solar and wind around to power the world, all we need to do is figure out how to buffer it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Certainly plans to build a prototype fusion reactor, Moorside up here (basically land next to Sellafield) is one of 5 sites 'bidding' to be the location.

I believe a decision could be made as early as late next year, construction from 2024 and peak operations around 2040.
		
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It's quite grim that it will take 16 years to get going. Is it being built by builders who are fitting it in around other jobs?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's quite grim that it will take 16 years to get going. Is it being built by builders who are fitting it in around other jobs?
		
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All the stuff that prevents any exposure to radiation and contamination of the general population if it goes wrong is the element that makes the job rather a large one. Won't be just a tin shed job....

Just writing the safety case could take years.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 8, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Certainly plans to build a prototype fusion reactor, Moorside up here (basically land next to Sellafield) is one of 5 sites 'bidding' to be the location.

I believe a decision could be made as early as late next year, construction from 2024 and peak operations around 2040.
		
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That suggests that we have the know how for fusion ( as opposed to fission ).
Other posts here suggest we haven't cracked it yet.
Any professional nuclear chaps here, to put us right?😀


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

saving_par said:



			All the stuff that prevents any exposure to radiation and contamination of the general population if it goes wrong is the element that makes the job rather a large one. Won't be just a tin shed job....

Just writing the safety case could take years.
		
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Presumably it isn't the first site for this though, happy to be corrected. If it isn't then surely they are copying a plan that has already been built before? If it is the first then 😱.

Minor interesting detail. I grew up near to the main design site for the UK nuclear stations. I did temping work there in holidays. Thousands of engineers beavering away creating 1 tonne of waste paper each day 😳. Pre email and any alterations, no matter how small, had multiple people copied in. An army of people copied and distributed paper that was binned within seconds. Email has certainly saved a few trees. The site disbanded years ago. Who knows where that knowledge disappeared to.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That suggests that we have the know how for fusion ( as opposed to fission ).
Other posts here suggest we haven't cracked it yet.
Any professional nuclear chaps here, to put us right?😀
		
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I work in nuclear but just a lowly grunt working in reducing the stockpile of nasty stuff produced by fission reactors.

The government certainly wants to build a prototype fusion reactor, the question is going to be how efficient it is going to be for it to be worthwhile.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumably it isn't the first site for this though, happy to be corrected. If it isn't then surely they are copying a plan that has already been built before? If it is the first then 😱.

Minor interesting detail. I grew up near to the main design site for the UK nuclear stations. I did temping work there in holidays. Thousands of engineers beavering away creating 1 tonne of waste paper each day 😳. Pre email and any alterations, no matter how small, had multiple people copied in. An army of people copied and distributed paper that was binned within seconds. Email has certainly saved a few trees. The site disbanded years ago. Who knows where that knowledge disappeared to.
		
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Don't know if any others have been built but other countries certainly won't be sharing plans.

These things are built for worst case and then some......

Certainly where I work every single bit of paperwork is stored for 30 years and we generate massive amounts of that daily just in my building and there are dozens of buildings site wide.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2021)

Or UK makes a condition of a trade agreement with Australia that any improvement in their economy through increased trade with UK is matched in some respect by a reduction in their global income from coal exports…as likewise do all countries trading with Australia, and who have signed up to eliminate coal from their industry and economy, require similar.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 9, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I work in nuclear but just a lowly grunt working in reducing the stockpile of nasty stuff produced by fission reactors.

The government certainly wants to build a prototype fusion reactor, the question is going to be how efficient it is going to be for it to be worthwhile.
		
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Long way to go before building one. Saw article at MIT -https://news.mit.edu/2021/MIT-CFS-major-advance-toward-fusion-energy-0908.
This reports a breakthrough, but long way to go.
Seems to be the answer, if achievable.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether or not you agree with their means of drawing attention to the ’cause’, it is clear that the Insulate Britain  protestors (I do not consider them clowns, they are activists) are 100% right…_their_ cause is actually _our_ cause and us just hanging around waiting for the government to come up with something on the insulation front is not good enough.  We should all be loudly demanding a government strategy and action plan to get us all properly insulated - if they have now published one I missed it.  Then, as suggested,  we can start worrying about the affordability of heat pumps for everyone.  At least now we are all, well most of us, fully aware of why Insulate Britain are as exercised over the matter as they are…

I have little time for an argument that says a government can’t do the right thing and take action because protestors demanding that action were right all along. After all, was that not what the poll tax riots were all about.
		
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Isn’t it up to yourself to insulate your home?
They are losing the will of the people with their methods.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isn’t it up to yourself to insulate your home?
*They are losing the will of the people *with their methods.
		
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They aren't losing it, they've well & truly lost the will of the people; not letting ambulances through sealed that.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 12, 2021)

I read that the clock is at a minute to midnight and coastal cities like Liverpool will be flooded into oblivion which is why I've just bought a great big diesel car and turned the heating up full blast.😁


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## williamalex1 (Nov 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We just have to find alternatives to coal, oil and gas for producing energy, we also need to find ways to reduce demand for energy.    There's nothing like crisis for sharpening minds and pushing people into taking action.
		
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Surely in this day and age of modern technology there must be a better way of filtering carbon emissions from cars, lorries ,heating systems, chimneys etc.
 And somehow make use of the carbon waste .


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## Tashyboy (Nov 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Surely in this day and age of modern technology there must be a better way of filtering carbon emissions from cars, lorries ,heating systems, chimneys etc.
And somehow make use of the carbon waste .
		
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As an ex collier of 36 years. whether I go against the grain or not coal should not be mined. Carbon capture of burnt coal, the technology has been there for years. The government simply wanted mines shut. It had nothing to do with saving the planet what so ever. 
There is a Lot of discussion about Australia and it’s use and shipping of coal overseas. What has not been mentioned is the fact that Australia mines vast quantities of “ Brown” coal. It is as dirty as you can get. It is shocking coal at its very worst. That said my lad before he came home a couple of months before COVID hit worked on the biggest solar farm in Australia. It was enormous and there are a few others in the pipeline.


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## cliveb (Nov 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isn’t it up to yourself to insulate your home?
		
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You could also argue that it's up to individuals to install heat pumps, but the government is awarding grants for that. The grants would be MUCH better spent on insulation. Heat pumps are a catastrophe waiting to bankrupt many who install them. Before getting a heat pump, you need to get good insulation, so the government has once again got things the wrong way round.



			They are losing the will of the people with their methods.
		
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Agreed. Ironic that Insulate Britain may have given the goal of insulating Britain the biggest setback possible.


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## fundy (Nov 12, 2021)

cliveb said:



			You could also argue that it's up to individuals to install heat pumps, but the government is awarding grants for that. The grants would be MUCH better spent on insulation. Heat pumps are a catastrophe waiting to bankrupt many who install them. Before getting a heat pump, you need to get good insulation, so the government has once again got things the wrong way round.

Agreed. Ironic that Insulate Britain may have given the goal of insulating Britain the biggest setback possible.
		
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Plenty of insulation grants available for those on lower incomes/benefits

How is a heatpump going to bankrupt someone?


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## cliveb (Nov 12, 2021)

fundy said:



			How is a heatpump going to bankrupt someone?
		
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If you install a heat pump in a typical British house, it won't generate hot enough water to get the house warm. You'll end up using shedloads of electricity to top up.


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## bobmac (Nov 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That said my lad before he came home a couple of months before COVID hit worked on the biggest solar farm in Australia. It was enormous and there are a few others in the pipeline.
		
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But of course, depending on which media source you listen to/watch, the positive news is often overlooked because good news isn't news.
Just like China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			But of course, depending on which media source you listen to/watch, the positive news is often overlooked because good news isn't news.
Just like China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States.
		
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It is indeed Bob, one does not have to dig deep ( pardon the pun) to see what they are more than capable of.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...e/renewables&usg=AOvVaw2E7iyYi8X7mjTbNPAhNmse
The problem could well be that the coal/ fossil fuel lobbyists still have a powerful voice. The loss of coal = the loss of thousands of jobs. To some that is not acceptable even if it means global warming.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			But of course, depending on which media source you listen to/watch, the positive news is often overlooked because good news isn't news.
Just like China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States.
		
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Woot woot… GO CHINA! 🥳

But in reality….
https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ants-uk-cop26-climate-summit-global-phase-out


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

When you have a look at the world polluters you have to wonder why our government is rushing to bankrupt us to achieve Net Zero status when it won’t make a blind bit of difference to the planet?

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

And talking of pollution here is a list of the 25 dirtiest cities in the world…..
Lahore, Pakistan
Ghaziabad, India
Delhi, India
Aguascalientes, Mexico
New Delhi, India
Lucknow, India
Muzaffarnagar, India
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Peshawar, Pakistan
Hapur, India
Patna, India
Kampala, Uganda
Kabul, Afghanistan
Chandigarh, India
Jaipur, India
Gandhinagar, India
Bamako, Mali
Dushanbe, Tajikistan
Baghdad, Iraq
Kolkata, India
Manama, Bahrain
Karachi, Pakistan
Dammam, Saudi Arabia
Hawalli, Kuwait
Visakhapatnam, India

Notice a theme? (I’m looking forward to Greta and her band of crazies trying to stop the traffic in downtown Dhaka)

Contrast to the 10 least polluted cities…..
Zurich, Switzerland
Hobart, Australia
Reykjavik, Iceland
Launceston, Australia
Honolulu, US
Vitoria, Brazil
Bergen, Norway
Wollongong, Australia
Turku, Finland
Funchal, Portugal

So why is the focus on the First World, forcing us to make all the sacrifices?

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/25-most-polluted-cities-world-2021-rankings/

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/25-least-polluted-cities-in-the-world-2021-rankings/


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			When you have a look at the world polluters you have to wonder why our government is rushing to bankrupt us to achieve Net Zero status when it won’t make a blind bit of difference to the planet?

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

And talking of pollution here is a list of the 25 dirtiest cities in the world…..
Lahore, Pakistan
Ghaziabad, India
Delhi, India
Aguascalientes, Mexico
New Delhi, India
Lucknow, India
Muzaffarnagar, India
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Peshawar, Pakistan
Hapur, India
Patna, India
Kampala, Uganda
Kabul, Afghanistan
Chandigarh, India
Jaipur, India
Gandhinagar, India
Bamako, Mali
Dushanbe, Tajikistan
Baghdad, Iraq
Kolkata, India
Manama, Bahrain
Karachi, Pakistan
Dammam, Saudi Arabia
Hawalli, Kuwait
Visakhapatnam, India

Notice a theme? (I’m looking forward to Greta and her band of crazies trying to stop the traffic in downtown Dhaka)

Contrast to the 10 least polluted cities…..
Zurich, Switzerland
Hobart, Australia
Reykjavik, Iceland
Launceston, Australia
Honolulu, US
Vitoria, Brazil
Bergen, Norway
Wollongong, Australia
Turku, Finland
Funchal, Portugal

So why is the focus on the First World, forcing us to make all the sacrifices?

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/25-most-polluted-cities-world-2021-rankings/

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/25-least-polluted-cities-in-the-world-2021-rankings/

Click to expand...

So instead we do nothing and just sod the rest of the world because the 3rd world is worse?

We need to do everything we can plus help them.


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## stefanovic (Nov 13, 2021)

Inconvenient truth: the climate is warming.
Uncomfortable truth: there are too many people on this small planet.

Who at Cop 26 understands Darwinism?
Probably none of them do.
Science, technology, medicines are actually counter Darwinian.
In order for humanity to return to stability with the earth, there will I'm afraid, have to be a massive cull of humans.
And there is no planet B.
It could still take 1000 years to start to correct the balance.
But just think that one day Homo Irrationalis could become Homo Rationalis.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So instead we do nothing and just sod the rest of the world because the 3rd world is worse?

We need to do everything we can plus help them.
		
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I don’t see the point in skinting ourselves when it makes absolutely no difference to the planet whilst the real polluters do nothing. 

Btw, biggest producers of air source heat pumps?
Well…. China of course.
Guandong Province mainly.
There are dozens of factories there that are eager to boost their output to satisfy the UK’s obsession of saving the planet.

and the pollution created to manufacture? Horrific.


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## bobmac (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Woot woot… GO CHINA! 🥳

But in reality….
https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ants-uk-cop26-climate-summit-global-phase-out

Click to expand...

What do you mean, in reality?
There are 1.4 billion people in China, that's a lot of energy
Would you rather they did nothing with renewables?
They can't change the energy supply for 1.4 billion people overnight, but they have at least started.

On second thoughts, lets cancel all solar and wind projects, keep burning stuff because it makes ''absolutely no difference to the planet''
Let the grand kids sort it out and sod the rest. Let's not even make a start.


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## bobmac (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I don’t see the point in skinting ourselves when it makes absolutely no difference to the planet *whilst the* *real polluters do nothing.*

Click to expand...

_''India is world's 3rd largest consumer of electricity and *world's 3rd largest renewable energy producer*_ _with 38% (136 GW out of 373 GW) of total installed energy capacity in 2020 from renewable sources.''_

So to say the real polluters are doing nothing is just rubbish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_India


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I don’t see the point in skinting ourselves when it makes absolutely no difference to the planet whilst the real polluters do nothing.

Btw, biggest producers of air source heat pumps?
Well…. China of course.
Guandong Province mainly.
There are dozens of factories there that are eager to boost their output to satisfy the UK’s obsession of saving the planet.

and the pollution created to manufacture? Horrific.
		
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Fine let's not spend any cash on it.. have a balanced economy but nowhere to live because we made it uninhabitable

Cracking idea


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Nov 13, 2021)

Just a  thought to consider.

Are we already over the tipping point with carbon emissions?
Is Waterworld already an inevitability?
And if that's the case, should we just do as we please at this point but stop procreating progeny for an immanent unlivable world?

Some scientists are already saying, Game over for humans, but the durable and adaptive cockroaches may learn to become aquatic.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Just a  thought to consider.

Are we already over the tipping point with carbon emissions?
Is Waterworld already an inevitability?
And if that's the case, should we just do as we please at this point but stop procreating progeny for an immanent unlivable world?

Some scientists are already saying, Game over for humans, but the durable and adaptive cockroaches may learn to become aquatic.
		
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The US is second only to China in CO emissions, pumping out more than India and Russia combined. (3rd and 4th respectively) What’s your view of that? Unlike the U.K. if your nation cleaned itself up it would make a real difference.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Fine let's not spend any cash on it.. have a balanced economy but nowhere to live because we made it uninhabitable

Cracking idea
		
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That’s a bit of a silly response, all I’m saying is what’s the point in us spending all our money to achieve something that will make no difference to the planet?
The worlds biggest CO producer didn’t even bother coming to COP26, their Premier just released a video that fails to make any climate pledges whatsoever!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....esident-sidesteps-videolink-written-statement


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			That’s a bit of a silly response, all I’m saying is what’s the point in us spending all our money to achieve something that will make no difference to the planet?
The worlds biggest CO producer didn’t even bother coming to COP26, their Premier just released a video that fails to make any climate pledges whatsoever!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....esident-sidesteps-videolink-written-statement

Click to expand...

No difference what so ever eh? So you reckon if we reduce to net zero it won't make any difference at all?

Any science behind this or just think meh sod the planet.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			That’s a bit of a silly response, all I’m saying is what’s the point in us spending all our money to achieve something that will make no difference to the planet?
The worlds biggest CO producer didn’t even bother coming to COP26, their Premier just released a video that fails to make any climate pledges whatsoever!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....esident-sidesteps-videolink-written-statement

Click to expand...

Maybe just to make the air we breathe locally a bit cleaner?

Or to lead by example!


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			No difference what so ever eh? So you reckon if we reduce to net zero it won't make any difference at all?

Any science behind this or just think meh sod the planet.
		
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BiMGuy said:



			Maybe just to make the air we breathe locally a bit cleaner?

Or to lead by example!
		
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Have a read of this instead of thinking we are not doing anything….

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-and-global-emissions-and-temperature-trends/

We were responsible for just 1.1% of global greenhouse gas emissions last year, and since 1990 to present day our emissions have fallen by 49%. That proves to me we are a responsible country and are more than doing our bit. 

Btw China’s greenhouse gas emissions since 1990 have tripled.

https://rhg.com/research/chinas-emissions-surpass-developed-countries/


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Have a read of this instead of thinking we are not doing anything….

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-and-global-emissions-and-temperature-trends/

We were responsible for just 1.1% of global greenhouse gas emissions last year, and since 1990 to present day our emissions have fallen by 49%. That proves to me we are a responsible country and are more than doing our bit.

Btw China’s greenhouse gas emissions since 1990 have tripled.

https://rhg.com/research/chinas-emissions-surpass-developed-countries/

Click to expand...

Oh sorry sir I couldn't be bothered to do my work but look nor has Dave ...

If it's 1% or 50% it still makes a difference 

And if we move away from bad energy then it stops the production of say gas boilers or coal mining it has a knock on affect round the globe


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## Foxholer (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			...
Btw China’s greenhouse gas emissions since 1990 have tripled.

https://rhg.com/research/chinas-emissions-surpass-developed-countries/

Click to expand...

Notwithstanding the absolute need for China to reduce its emissions, the report above appropriately highlights the fact that it's significantly less of a polluter than USA - on a per capita basis. 10.1 tons vs US's 17.6 and is actually slightly below the average of OECD average of 10.5 tons!
Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics!


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## sweaty sock (Nov 13, 2021)

So, knowing that golf courses are a long way from being carbon neutral, golf balls release heavy metal elements into the soil, the industry has massive plastic production, and the courses themselves are harmful to the local biosphere, we'll all be giving up tomorrow.

No?  Well why not?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			So, knowing that golf courses are a long way from being carbon neutral, golf balls release heavy metal elements into the soil, the industry has massive plastic production, and the courses themselves are harmful to the local biosphere, we'll all be giving up tomorrow.

*No?  Well why not?*

Click to expand...

No tax relief 🤷‍♂️


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			So, knowing that golf courses are a long way from being carbon neutral, golf balls release heavy metal elements into the soil, the industry has massive plastic production, and the courses themselves are harmful to the local biosphere, we'll all be giving up tomorrow.

No?  Well why not?
		
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Can you explain how golf balls release heavy metal elements into the soil and in what quantities.  I'm not suggesting its not true but as you've raised it then maybe you can explain how it happens and how it affects the environment.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 13, 2021)

Its was 100% google, apparently zinc oxide and zinc acrylate in solid core balls is bad, particularly in water...

They do take ages to decompose, but, well thats not a good thing either...


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you explain how golf balls release heavy metal elements into the soil and in what quantities.  I'm not suggesting its not true but as you've raised it then maybe you can explain how it happens and how it affects the environment.
		
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All those single use plastics?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2021)

Well the “deal” tells you all you need to know about what the major players think about climate control with the last minute change on fossil fuels


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding the absolute need for China to reduce its emissions, the report above appropriately highlights the fact that it's significantly less of a polluter than USA - on a per capita basis. 10.1 tons vs US's 17.6 and is actually slightly below the average of OECD average of 10.5 tons!
Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics!
		
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If it’s per capita that rocks your world, Saudi’s, Kazak’s and Aussies all worse than the US.
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			When you have a look at the world polluters you have to wonder why our government is rushing to bankrupt us to achieve Net Zero status when it won’t make a blind bit of difference to the planet?

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

And talking of pollution here is a list of the 25 dirtiest cities in the world…..
Lahore, Pakistan
Ghaziabad, India
Delhi, India
Aguascalientes, Mexico
New Delhi, India
Lucknow, India
Muzaffarnagar, India
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Peshawar, Pakistan
Hapur, India
Patna, India
Kampala, Uganda
Kabul, Afghanistan
Chandigarh, India
Jaipur, India
Gandhinagar, India
Bamako, Mali
Dushanbe, Tajikistan
Baghdad, Iraq
Kolkata, India
Manama, Bahrain
Karachi, Pakistan
Dammam, Saudi Arabia
Hawalli, Kuwait
Visakhapatnam, India

Notice a theme? (I’m looking forward to Greta and her band of crazies trying to stop the traffic in downtown Dhaka)

Contrast to the 10 least polluted cities…..
Zurich, Switzerland
Hobart, Australia
Reykjavik, Iceland
Launceston, Australia
Honolulu, US
Vitoria, Brazil
Bergen, Norway
Wollongong, Australia
Turku, Finland
Funchal, Portugal

So why is the focus on the First World, forcing us to make all the sacrifices?

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/25-most-polluted-cities-world-2021-rankings/

https://smarta

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Fade and Die said:



			If it’s per capita that rocks your world, Saudi’s, Kazak’s and Aussies all worse than the US.
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

Click to expand...

That is merely looking at current emmisions.  Over the last 100 years the USA are far and away the leader for both total and per capita,  with the UK and Germany are not far behind. Europe, the US and the west in general are also the biggest consumers of products with produced with the help of fossill fuels.  Yes China India etc need to  up to the mark but progress will only made when the west  accepts its resposibilities for where we are today and takes the lead in reducing emmisions. This can be a win if we invest in the right technologies that can later be sold to the emerging  economies,  though I fear we have missed that boat with China leading the way in that respect.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			That is *merely looking at current emmisions.*  Over the last 100 years the USA are far and away the leader for both total and per capita,  with the UK and Germany are not far behind. Europe, the US and the west in general are also the biggest consumers of products with produced with the help of fossill fuels.  Yes China India etc need to  up to the mark but *progress will only made when the west  accepts its resposibilities for where we are today *and takes the lead in reducing emmisions. This can be a win if we invest in the right technologies that can later be sold to the emerging  economies,  though I fear we have missed that boat with China leading the way in that respect.
		
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Surely it’s only the current emissions that we need to be concerned with? What is gained by looking at things that happened 200 years ago? 

The 2nd highlighted bit… Are you suggesting we should feel guilty because our country was at the forefront of the industrial revolution and we need to atone somehow for the “sins” of our ancestors? That’s truly bizarre.


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Surely it’s only the current emissions that we need to be concerned with? What is gained by looking at things that happened 200 years ago?

The 2nd highlighted bit… Are you suggesting we should feel guilty because our country was at the forefront of the industrial revolution and we need to atone somehow for the “sins” of our ancestors? That’s truly bizarre.
		
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It's really necessary to look at both!
Historically, the current crisis was not even considered - for several reasons. But developing nations must be allowed to use at least some similar 'short-cuts' to development to those countries that unknowingly thought they weren't killing the planet!
But to castigate developing countries - and I would put China in that category - is wrong imo. It does, however, need to change and undue reluctance _should_ be open to criticism. US on the other hand definitely needs to have pressure applied to become greener - as it's high on both per capita and overall contribution!
India's last minute amendment to 'the statement' was, imo, reprehensible, though understandable as above. A more aggressive term than 'phase down' was/is needed.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Surely it’s only the current emissions that we need to be concerned with? What is gained by looking at things that happened 200 years ago?

The 2nd highlighted bit… Are you suggesting we should feel guilty because our country was at the forefront of the industrial revolution and we need to atone somehow for the “sins” of our ancestors? That’s truly bizarre.
		
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Let's look at it from the developing nations' point of you,  the west made itself very wealthy from the industrial revolution and exploited the natural reserves of what is some cases now developing nations. nations. Then just at the point start to catch up,  the west says you have to stop using the very fuel that is helping them catch up but we will not help you.  Does that look reasonable to you,  because it seems to be what you're advocating?  

It is your spin on what I said that was bizarre.  We need to use the wealth that the industrial revolution helped to create to help make the world a better place for future generations.  It seems to me that would be a better use of our resources than to continue to trash the world with them.  Our great-grandchildren will not be thanking us if we don't. 

Do note that I am talking about the industrialised countries in general, not the UK as largely we are a little ahead of the game though we need to ensure our plans going forward are robust and not based on over-optimism of what science can achieve.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Let's look at it from the developing nations' point of you,  the west made itself very wealthy from the industrial revolution and exploited the natural reserves of what is some cases now developing nations. nations. Then just at the point start to catch up,  the west says you have to stop using the very fuel that is helping them catch up but we will not help you.  Does that look reasonable to you,  because it seems to be what you're advocating?  

It is your spin on what I said that was bizarre.  We need to use the wealth that the industrial revolution helped to create to help make the world a better place for future generations.  It seems to me that would be a better use of our resources than to continue to trash the world with them.  Our great-grandchildren will not be thanking us if we don't. 

Do note that I am talking about the industrialised countries in general, not the UK as largely we are a little ahead of the game though we need to ensure our plans going forward are robust and not based on over-optimism of what science can achieve.
		
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I take your point, but the situation is what it is. And saying it is ok for the "developing" nations to use fossil fuels because the West did -sauce for the goose.....-etc, is not good enough.
The planet cannot take much more, some say any more, so arguing that it is alright for an emerging nation to have its turn, is not going to help.
India and China are wrong on this. But they, particularly the latter, have some very clever people.
.
The west should invite India and China to collaborat, urgently, to crack the nuclear fusion problem. If that can be done, there is much clean energy for everyone. Urgent use of wind and waves too.
It can be done, but, 
It is nationalism which is the problem. And traditions.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Surely it’s only the current emissions that we need to be concerned with? What is gained by looking at things that happened 200 years ago? 

The 2nd highlighted bit… Are you suggesting we should feel guilty because our country was at the forefront of the industrial revolution and we need to atone somehow for the “sins” of our ancestors? That’s truly bizarre.
		
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Re your 2nd paragraph. Didn't you know? This is the latest fashionable game the West should be playing. The U K is very good at it.
First, read some history, take a particular view, then find a lawyer, then off you go.....demanding this that and the other.🙄


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			It's really necessary to look at both!
Historically, the current crisis was not even considered - for several reasons. But developing nations *must be allowed to use at least some similar 'short-cuts' to development* to those countries that unknowingly thought they weren't killing the planet!
But to castigate developing countries - and I would put China in that category - is wrong imo. It does, however, need to change and undue reluctance _should_ be open to criticism. US on the other hand definitely needs to have pressure applied to become greener - as it's high on both per capita and overall contribution!
India's last minute amendment to 'the statement' was, imo, reprehensible, though understandable as above. A more aggressive term than 'phase down' was/is needed.
		
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So your saying even though we now know that burning fossil fuel is bad for the environment we must allow China and India to do it because we did it? That’s nonsense. If it’s wrong it’s wrong. 

The West did it because there was no alternative at the time and we was unaware of the damage it caused, now we do and there are alternatives. China and India could easily power there countries with clean affordable nuclear energy.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 14, 2021)

The West has created lots of enviromental damage through time, but because of that we now have the technology to not need to as we did. The devloping countries have the ability to use that technology themselves thus saving the need to do the dirty stuff we did. Whats wrong with that?
I note they can still afford space programs and the like...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The West has created lots of enviromental damage through time, but because of that we now have the technology to not need to as we did. The devloping countries have the ability to use that technology themselves thus saving the need to do the dirty stuff we did. Whats wrong with that?
I note they can still afford space programs and the like...
		
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"Because India is outside the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty due to its weapons programme, it was for 34 years largely excluded from trade in nuclear plant and materials, which hampered its development of civil nuclear energy until 2009."

I mean that might have delayed them slightly.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I take your point, but the situation is what it is. And saying it is ok for the "developing" nations to use fossil fuels because the West did -sauce for the goose.....-etc, is not good enough.
The planet cannot take much more, some say any more, so arguing that it is alright for an emerging nation to have its turn, is not going to help.
India and China are wrong on this. But they, particularly the latter, have some very clever people.
.
The west should invite India and China to collaborat, urgently, to crack the nuclear fusion problem. If that can be done, there is much clean energy for everyone. Urgent use of wind and waves too.
It can be done, but,
It is nationalism which is the problem. And traditions.
		
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I am not at all saying that China, India etc dont have to reduce their emmisions,  but that hhe west have to help and encourage them to do so.  F&D  seemed to be saying what we did would make no difference when China etc is doing little.  The point I am trying to make is why should China use what little resourse (per head) it has when the main causes of global warming are not using its vast resources to do so.  Couldn't agree more with your last point,  the world need to work together to solve its problems.
The US continue to be the largest emitter of CO2 per head.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am not at all saying that China, India etc dont have to reduce their emmisions,  but that hhe west have to help and encourage them to do so.  F&D  seemed to be saying what we did would make no difference when China etc is doing little.  The point I am trying to make is why should China use what little resourse (per head) it has when the main causes of global warming are not using its vast resources to do so.  Couldn't agree more with your last point,  the world need to work together to solve its problems.
The US continue to be the largest emitter of CO2 per head.
		
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Everyone loves to try and look on the negatives of the deal yesterday to suit their agenda to not bother and oh their not so why do I have to

Rather than all the positives of getting a deal through. A very important deal that could make a huge difference to the future of our race 

But no I want to buy a cheap gas guzzler.. to hell with the planet I should be able to do what I want because India changed the wording 

End of the day people are selfish and hate change


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			So your saying even though we now know that burning fossil fuel is bad for the environment we must allow China and India to do it because we did it? That’s nonsense. If it’s wrong it’s wrong.

The West did it because there was no alternative at the time and we was unaware of the damage it caused, now we do and there are alternatives. China and India could easily power there countries with clean affordable nuclear energy.
		
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They can't simply change from CO2 producing power generation to non CO2 producing power generation overnight! FFS, UK still generates power from Oil, which is pretty bad for the environment too!
And the amount of CO2 from vehicles is not insignificant either. Are you suggesting Oil based fueled vehicles are immediately banned?
China is actually leading the way in 'clean' power generation, but conversion from fossil based to clean fuel takes time.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am not at all saying that China, India etc dont have to reduce their emmisions,  but that hhe west have to help and encourage them to do so.  F&D  seemed to be saying what we did would make no difference when China etc is doing little.  The point I am trying to make is why should China use what little resourse (per head) it has when the main causes of global warming are not using its vast resources to do so.  Couldn't agree more with your last point,  the world need to work together to solve its problems.
*The US continue to be the largest emitter of CO2 per head*.
		
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As I pointed out earlier, the Saudi’s, Kazakhstan and Australia are all worse that the US in this.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			They can't simply change from CO2 producing power generation to non CO2 producing power generation overnight! FFS, UK still generates power from Oil, which is pretty bad for the environment too!
And the amount of CO2 from vehicles is not insignificant either. Are you suggesting Oil based fueled vehicles are immediately banned?
China is actually leading the way in 'clean' power generation, but conversion from fossil based to clean fuel takes time.
		
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True, but they could have signed for a phasing out (over time) rather than phase down.
These countries ( all, west , east, emerging) have to stop their power games.
It has to be hammered home that we are heading to become a dead planet, maybe like Mars.
(How many of you think, as I do, that Mars once did have an atmosphere, and probably life, but something happened for it to lose it's atmosphere, and it now is what it is.)
It won't much affect us, but how the hell a species which can be as clever as we can be, cannot work together on this.?
Makes you want to see UFOs and aliens manifest themselves and tell us to pull our fingers out, or else😀


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Everyone loves to try and look on the negatives of the deal yesterday to suit their agenda to not bother and oh their not so why do I have to

Rather than all the positives of getting a deal through. A very important deal that could make a huge difference to the future of our race

But no I want to buy a cheap gas guzzler.. to hell with the planet I should be able to do what I want because India changed the wording

End of the day people are selfish and* hate change*

Click to expand...

The bold bit, IMO, is an over simplification of a complex problem. In my experience it's, in many cases, not that people hate change its more that change is difficult and, almost without fail, comes with a cost. 

If I said to you "you must get rid of your car that you call "the tank" (some MPV I think) and replace it with an eco friendly option by this time next week" then that may present you with some challenges. 

You probably won't _hate _the idea of the change but you might find it more difficult than just saying "ok then I'll go and buy an EV this week to replace it". 

Whether we like it or not, change takes time and effort (and cost) and the question of funding it not only perplexes businesses internally (and I face in to this every day) but entire countries, governments, organisations right down to individual people. 

I think you'll probably find more people who want to change (or at least aren't hating the idea) but have no idea where to start because of the challenges that they face. 

People don't buy cheap gas guzzlers (in the main) because what they have always wanted is a 55 plate Mondeo with 150k on the clock and an MOT advisory list longer than their arm. They buy them because they can't afford to join the revolution. 

Now people, please remember the above is opinion and based on my everyday experience of dealing with both people and change and is no way purported as fact.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			The bold bit, IMO, is an over simplification of a complex problem. In my experience it's, in many cases, not that people hate change its more that change is difficult and, almost without fail, comes with a cost.

If I said to you "you must get rid of your car that you call "the tank" (some MPV I think) and replace it with an eco friendly option by this time next week" then that may present you with some challenges.

You probably won't _hate _the idea of the change but you might find it more difficult than just saying "ok then I'll go and buy an EV this week to replace it".

Whether we like it or not, change takes time and effort (and cost) and the question of funding it not only perplexes businesses internally (and I face in to this every day) but entire countries, governments, organisations right down to individual people.

I think you'll probably find more people who want to change (or at least aren't hating the idea) but have no idea where to start because of the challenges that they face.

People don't buy cheap gas guzzlers (in the main) because what they have always wanted is a 55 plate Mondeo with 150k on the clock and an MOT advisory list longer than their arm. They buy them because they can't afford to join the revolution.

Now people, please remember the above is opinion and based on my everyday experience of dealing with both people and change and is no way purported as fact.
		
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Yet you also get a long list of rubbish from anti change that all modern tech is awful, ev should be instantly ready at the same price and go same distance with zero compromise made by them.

I'd get rid of the tank in a heart beat, just waiting for eldest to be out of car seats. We have seriously reduced its usage (3000 miles this year) with the ev doing 12000 miles .. anytime we can travel ev we do. Or walk

Have meat free days as that's a massive reduce in carbon

But you get those who aren't willing to even try any measures

Scientists should be making the changes for them.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet you also get a long list of rubbish from anti change that all modern tech is awful, ev should be instantly ready at the same price and go same distance with zero compromise made by them.

I'd get rid of the tank in a heart beat, just waiting for eldest to be out of car seats. We have seriously reduced its usage (3000 miles this year) with the ev doing 12000 miles .. anytime we can travel ev we do. Or walk

Have meat free days as that's a massive reduce in carbon

But you get those who aren't willing to even try any measures

Scientists should be making the changes for them.
		
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None of the above equates to hating change though. It’s not unreasonable to expect a similar product or service if it’s being mandated. 
I understand that people do put barriers up to change, as I say I deal with it every day, but it’s not usually hatred but more uncertainty or, in some cases, change fatigue. 

Ok so why don’t you change the MPV to an EV today? In that heartbeat, make that change. 

Lots of people are making small changes but with cost of living rising exponentially the cost of those “meat free” days is often higher then the meat equivalent. It’s the sad reality whether we think it should or shouldn’t be the case. 

Science helps us find solutions, but someone, somewhere has to pay for them.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			None of the above equates to hating change though. It’s not unreasonable to expect a similar product or service if it’s being mandated.
I understand that people do put barriers up to change, as I say I deal with it every day, but it’s not usually hatred but more uncertainty or, in some cases, change fatigue.

Ok so why don’t you change the MPV to an EV today? In that heartbeat, make that change.

Lots of people are making small changes but with cost of living rising exponentially the cost of those “meat free” days is often higher then the meat equivalent. It’s the sad reality whether we think it should or shouldn’t be the case.

Science helps us find solutions, but someone, somewhere has to pay for them.
		
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Meat free is almost as cheap as meat now.. Tesco have a vaste range 

As stated, waiting for eldest to get out of car seats .. otherwise I'd change now , nice Skoda enyag once she tall enough will be fine


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			As I pointed out earlier, the Saudi’s, Kazakhstan and Australia are all worse that the US in this.
		
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Far point,  but it does not explain why you keep saying it is China and India that need to do more.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Meat free is almost as cheap as meat now.. Tesco have a vaste range

As stated, waiting for eldest to get out of car seats .. otherwise I'd change now , nice Skoda enyag once she tall enough will be fine
		
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Almost but not, and that distinction can be extremely important to the less advantaged. 

I’m not following the logic of the car seat. Why does a car seat stop you changing now? Car seats fit in EVs surely?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Almost but not, and that distinction can be extremely important to the less advantaged.

I’m not following the logic of the car seat. Why does a car seat stop you changing now? Car seats fit in EVs surely?
		
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3 car seats do not fit in an EV unfortunately, to get 3 car seats in I had to go for one of 4 cars on the market

Once the 4 year old is either 12 or tall enough she can come out and then have a twin either side 

Without twins we wouldn't even have that car


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			3 car seats do not fit in an EV unfortunately, to get 3 car seats in I had to go for one of 4 cars on the market

Once the 4 year old is either 12 or tall enough she can come out and then have a twin either side

Without twins we wouldn't even have that car
		
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So your circumstances dictate what you can and can’t do regarding change…?

Interesting.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So your circumstances dictate what you can and can’t do regarding change…?

Interesting.
		
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However I am willing to change..... And I far from moan about it ...

Like I said, once the kids are old enough I'm in

Which is a safety thing ...rather than a poor excuse like oh I don't want to adapt as they only go 170 miles on a charge and I don't want to ever stop...


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2021)

It will be a while before the US make any significant change, as long as the oil, coal and gas billionaires keep bribing their senators.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However I am willing to change..... And I far from moan about it ...

Like I said, once the kids are old enough I'm in

Which is a safety thing ...rather than a poor excuse like oh I don't want to adapt as they only go 170 miles on a charge and I don't want to ever stop...
		
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Oh absolutely, I know you are willing but then so are so many that want to but limiting factors mean that they can’t rather than won’t. 

Yes there is a vocal element that decry change but it doesn’t mean that people inherently hate change as you asserted earlier. 

And for info, my mate has an Etron Audi (Q5 type) and 3 car seats fit in that. His kids are 4, 3 and just shy of 2.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

I also believe that the Tesla model Y will accommodate 3 car seats and the rear bench is rather large.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Oh absolutely, I know you are willing but then so are so many that want to but limiting factors mean that they can’t rather than won’t.

Yes there is a vocal element that decry change but it doesn’t mean that people inherently hate change as you asserted earlier.

And for info, my mate has an Etron Audi (Q5 type) and 3 car seats fit in that. His kids are 4, 3 and just shy of 2.
		
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Are they all alone the back? The twins have to have massive seats ATM .. which are bigger than the 4 year old so the day is coming round.. prob tie in nicely with the current ev lease ending


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I also believe that the Tesla model Y will accommodate 3 car seats and the rear bench is rather large.
		
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You'd definitely be the coolest dad on the school run


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You'd definitely be the coolest dad on the school run
		
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To be fair you should be walking where possible


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You'd definitely be the coolest dad on the school run
		
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100% with those gull wing doors.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			100% with those gull wing doors.
		
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Are you thinking of the model X? The y isn't even out yet here


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Are they all alone the back? The twins have to have massive seats ATM .. which are bigger than the 4 year old so the day is coming round.. prob tie in nicely with the current ev lease ending
		
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Well no, they are all with each other. 
But they fit and they are safe. 

I understand, you believe your reasoning isn’t spurious because it’s your reasoning. 

Other people’s reasoning may appear spurious to you but not to them.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Are you thinking of the model X? The y isn't even out yet here
		
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Sorry yes, model X. Always get my alphabet confused.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Well no, they are all with each other.
But they fit and they are safe.

I understand, you believe your reasoning isn’t spurious because it’s your reasoning.

Other people’s reasoning may appear spurious to you but not to them.
		
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There are always exceptions that prove every rule..


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			There are always exceptions that prove every rule..
		
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Ah the old exception and rules statement. 

Your view is as entrenched as the ones you accuse of being entrenched. 

And this will be the biggest damning factor to the eco lobby, that somehow their reasoning is better and more valid than that of others. 

We will just have to disagree on it and move on with our lives.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			The US is second only to China in CO emissions, pumping out more than India and Russia combined. (3rd and 4th respectively) What’s your view of that? Unlike the U.K. if your nation cleaned itself up it would make a real difference.
		
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Perhaps that's true.  To this point, however, I personally haven't been put in charge of that.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Ah the old exception and rules statement.

Your view is as entrenched as the ones you accuse of being entrenched.

And this will be the biggest damning factor to the eco lobby, that somehow their reasoning is better and more valid than that of others.

We will just have to disagree on it and move on with our lives.
		
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If only it was so simple..everytime something eco comes along anti change decide to bash and pick holes, if only the minds would work together rather than look on the negatives constantly.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			If only it was so simple..everytime something eco comes along anti change decide to bash and pick holes, if only the minds would work together rather than look on the negatives constantly.
		
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Nothing is simple on either side of the divide. I am not anti eco but I am also not in a position to drop my current lifestyle immediately and pick up a whole new one. It will take time but it will happen. 

I think you should go out tomorrow and buy an etron Audi as it eliminates your current limiting factor. I look forward to the your reports on it.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Far point,  but it does not explain why you keep saying it is China and India that need to do more.
		
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Because I think per head of capita is misleading. Aussies have a small population compared with the Chinese so it can look slanted. I prefer to look at the biggest polluters by pollution created.
China, the US, India and the Russians create 55% of the worlds CO2 emissions. That’s 4 countries producing more that the rest of the world put together! So it seems pretty obvious who should be doing more.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Because I think per head of capita is misleading. Aussies have a small population compared with the Chinese so it can look slanted. I prefer to look at the biggest polluters by pollution created.
China, the US, India and the Russians create 55% of the worlds CO2 emissions. That’s 4 countries producing more that the rest of the world put together! So it seems pretty obvious who should be doing more.
		
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Per head of capita is not relevant. It's how much in tonnes that is being produced. We need less tonnes, end of.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 14, 2021)

How about we abolish the abundance of air con in buildings and homes?
Again it's ok for some  to ignore the damage the chemicals within them do.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Nothing is simple on either side of the divide. I am not anti eco but I am also not in a position to drop my current lifestyle immediately and pick up a whole new one. It will take time but it will happen.

I think you should go out tomorrow and buy an etron Audi as it eliminates your current limiting factor. I look forward to the your reports on it.
		
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Afraid it's impractical. 3 isofix points but only 2 in the back across the outer 2 seats .. Mrs can't get in and out ...little one can go in front no issue we do that now we a twin behind the passenger and in middle .. however the e Tron can't safely do this only with a bodge job


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Because I think per head of capita is misleading. Aussies have a small population compared with the Chinese so it can look slanted. I prefer to look at the biggest polluters by pollution created.
China, the US, India and the Russians create 55% of the worlds CO2 emissions. That’s 4 countries producing more that the rest of the world put together! So it seems pretty obvious who should be doing more.
		
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.  Per head is relevant because of the reources needed to change and the effect on wealth of that population.  I am not disputing that all the very largest emitters need to change but we cannot dissolve ourselves of pur own responsibilities


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2021)

Everyone must do their bit, but it is encouraging to see that China and India have made a start, especially with over one third of the planet's population


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Everyone must do their bit, but it is encouraging to see that China and India have made a start, especially with over one third of the planet's population
		
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Even a start is better than nothing at all

Every single country, person etc will play their part. It's not going to be easy but their are simple changes we can all make to help out even a tiny bit , those tiny bits add up


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## chellie (Nov 14, 2021)

I will continue to eat British meat 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1454699419622952962


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 14, 2021)

I will wait until all these billionaires reduce their carbon footprints by a factor of hundreds if not thousands before I start thinking about it.....

Of course that will never happen will it?

Hopefully all the private jets got home safely from the summit.


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## stefanovic (Nov 14, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Hopefully all the private jets got home safely from the summit.
		
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They should know better but they don't.
At least private jets should be banned from all future COP's.

Leisure flights also need to come under scrutiny.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I will wait until all these billionaires reduce their carbon footprints by a factor of hundreds if not thousands before I start thinking about it.....

Of course that will never happen will it?

Hopefully all the private jets got home safely from the summit.
		
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I'm sure they'll write and tell you when they've done it!


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## stefanovic (Nov 14, 2021)

the courses themselves are harmful to the local biosphere,
		
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In order for golf to become green the grass should be allowed to grow on courses.
Manicuring is definitely harmful, as is fertiliser and pesticides. The real pests are the green keepers, or rather the people they are working under.
Same applies to lawns.
Also, take gardening programs off the air. Look at the harm they have done to our habitats by helping to destroy the natural balance between plant and animal biomass.[/QUOTE]


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			True, but they could have signed for a phasing out (over time) rather than phase down.
These countries ( all, west , east, emerging) have to stop their power games.
...
		
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Totally agree! 


Swinglowandslow said:



			...
It has to be hammered home that we are heading to become a dead planet, maybe like Mars.
(How many of you think, as I do, that Mars once did have an atmosphere, and probably life, but something happened for it to lose it's atmosphere, and it now is what it is.)
...
		
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Highly unlikely, but there'll certainly be changes to temperatures, weather and sea levels that will affect large numbers of Earth's inhabitants, somewhat ironically many of whom will be from the largest polluters!
And, from ancient memory, scientific consensus is that Mars _did_ have an atmosphere (almost certainly not 'life' though), but it got blown away by Solar storms after it 'lost' its magnetic field protection.


Swinglowandslow said:



			...
It won't much affect us, but how the hell a species which can be as clever as we can be, cannot work together on this.?
...
		
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Vested/Self/National interest(s)!


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			In order for golf to become green the grass should be allowed to grow on courses.
Manicuring is definitely harmful, as is fertiliser and pesticides. The real pests are the green keepers, or rather the people they are working under.
Same applies to lawns.
Also, take gardening programs off the air. Look at the harm they have done to our habitats by helping to destroy the natural balance between plant and animal biomass.
		
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It's difficult to describe the above as anything but 'a load of male bovine manure'!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			The bold bit, IMO, is an over simplification of a complex problem. In my experience it's, in many cases, not that people hate change its more that change is difficult and, almost without fail, comes with a cost.

If I said to you "you must get rid of your car that you call "the tank" (some MPV I think) and replace it with an eco friendly option by this time next week" then that may present you with some challenges.

You probably won't _hate _the idea of the change but you might find it more difficult than just saying "ok then I'll go and buy an EV this week to replace it".

Whether we like it or not, change takes time and effort (and cost) and the question of funding it not only perplexes businesses internally (and I face in to this every day) but entire countries, governments, organisations right down to individual people.

I think you'll probably find more people who want to change (or at least aren't hating the idea) but have no idea where to start because of the challenges that they face.

People don't buy cheap gas guzzlers (in the main) because what they have always wanted is a 55 plate Mondeo with 150k on the clock and an MOT advisory list longer than their arm. They buy them because they can't afford to join the revolution.

Now people, please remember the above is opinion and based on my everyday experience of dealing with both people and change and is no way purported as fact.
		
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You have got it spot on 

The main reason people are continuing to buy petrol cars etc or not having all the climate friendly goods is because right now it’s both not cost effective for them and also not practical for them. 

When electric cars etc become the same price etc then more people will buy them

99.9% of people try and do their bit - recycle , walk instead of drive etc - the Uk try and do their bit 

But there is nothing worse than people pointing fingers at others because they are still using fossil fuels or putting petrol in a car - even more so when those people will still be contributing to the climate problems. 

When someone’s circumstances allow them to go as a green as they possibly can then most will do that.


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			...
*The worlds biggest CO producer didn’t even bother coming to COP26, their Premier just released a video that fails to make any climate pledges whatsoever!*

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....esident-sidesteps-videolink-written-statement

Click to expand...

Not true!
China WAS represented, just not by the President.


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## DaveR (Nov 14, 2021)

How many miles does an EV have to do before it becomes carbon neutral? I've heard numbers like 70,000 banded around.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			How many miles does an EV have to do before it becomes carbon neutral? I've heard numbers like 70,000 banded around.
		
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...e-greener-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-8hb5m0dm7

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/pub...tprint-of-a-petrol-car-research-claims/209636

“Electric cars have to travel as far as 50,000 miles to match the carbon footprint of a petrol model because of the massive amount of energy consumed during the production process, according to research.”


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			How many miles does an EV have to do before it becomes carbon neutral? I've heard numbers like 70,000 banded around.
		
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As always these figures are branded about and stick even though they aren't fact checked.

70k miles if powered by pure coal power 

13k miles of powered by coal, other fossil fuels and renewables

Little know facts on ev is how energy efficient they are compared 

An ice car will go further but so inefficient

Ice cars are only 25% on average efficient, lot of energy lost through heat 

An EV is 86% efficient on average 

Through the whole process of getting petrol from the ground etc Vs electric a ice car will go say 40 miles to the gallon 

A gallon is the same as a 32kw battery which is about 120 miles 

So for the same amount of energy they go 3 times as far

Just can't hold as many "gallons"


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2021)

Cop26 was a bit of a waste of time, the people there were not really there to save the planet more like have a few beverages and nice meals. 
The Chinese get the bad press, yet they are the world leaders in electric car production and have gone through the teething issues. They also have green energy requirements that force their major industries to have green energy sources. 
For me if this was a zoom call and no one flying in .. it would have had value .. being somewhere physically must change, travel must change ..
And no one has pushed the button on military vehicle emissions yet … leaving me to summarise that the governments are the key polluters and the public are just victims of their government’s pollution.


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## DaveR (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			As always these figures are branded about and stick even though they aren't fact checked.

70k miles if powered by pure coal power

13k miles of powered by coal, other fossil fuels and renewables

Little know facts on ev is how energy efficient they are compared

An ice car will go further but so inefficient

Ice cars are only 25% on average efficient, lot of energy lost through heat

An EV is 86% efficient on average

Through the whole process of getting petrol from the ground etc Vs electric a ice car will go say 40 miles to the gallon

A gallon is the same as a 32kw battery which is about 120 miles

So for the same amount of energy they go 3 times as far

Just can't hold as many "gallons"
		
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What about the carbon emissions from extracting/manufacturing the batteries? That must be huge.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Cop26 was a bit of a waste of time, the people there were not really there to save the planet more like have a few beverages and nice meals.
The Chinese get the bad press, yet they are the world leaders in electric car production and have gone through the teething issues. They also have green energy requirements that force their major industries to have green energy sources.
For me if this was a zoom call and no one flying in .. it would have had value .. being somewhere physically must change, travel must change ..
And no one has pushed the button on military vehicle emissions yet … leaving me to summarise that the governments are the key polluters and the public are just victims of their government’s pollution.
		
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I think the whole thing was a beautiful display of nauseating hypocrisy…Producing 102000 tonnes of CO (the equivalent annual output of 10000 U.K. homes) and twice the amount of the last COP shindig in Madrid.
The strap line should be “do as I say, not as I do".


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			What about the carbon emissions from extracting/manufacturing the batteries? That must be huge.
		
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Compared to the mining and refining of fuel?

https://electrek.co/2021/03/01/mini...times-better-than-petrol-car-emission-cycles/

Electric vehicles consume far less raw material (metals) than fossil fueled cars
When taking into account the recycling of the battery cell materials and that the majority of the metal content is recovered, T&E calculates how much is ‘consumed’ or ‘lost’ during the lifetime of an EV. Under the EU’s current recycling recovery rate target, around 30 kilograms of metals would be lost (i.e. not recovered).

In contrast, the study shows that the weight of petrol or diesel that is burned during the average lifetime of a vehicle is around 300-400 times more than the total quantity of battery cells metals ‘lost’. Over its lifetime, an average ICE car burns close to 17,000 liters of petrol, which would be equivalent to a stack of oil barrels 90m high.

...


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



*As always these figures are branded about and stick even though they aren't fact checked....*

*...An EV is 86% efficient on average*

Click to expand...

https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/benefits-of-electric-cars

*Electric cars are far more energy efficient (85-90% efficient)*

or

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

*Energy efficient.* *EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels*.
or

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/10/electric-car-myth-buster-efficiency/

According to the US Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, *“EVs convert about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels*...    ...An electric motor typically is between 85% and 90% efficient.


So are you not fact checking, or just cherry-picking your "facts" to suit your argument?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/benefits-of-electric-cars

*Electric cars are far more energy efficient (85-90% efficient)*

or

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

*Energy efficient.* *EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels*.
or

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/10/electric-car-myth-buster-efficiency/

According to the US Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, *“EVs convert about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels*...    ...An electric motor typically is between 85% and 90% efficient.


So are you not fact checking, or just cherry-picking your "facts" to suit your argument?
		
Click to expand...

So between 85 and 90 efficient in the car itself?

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/10/electric-car-myth-buster-efficiency/

Either way FAR more efficient than the ice cars that are worse than the 25% I put for the average ..


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## DaveR (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Compared to the mining and refining of fuel?

https://electrek.co/2021/03/01/mini...times-better-than-petrol-car-emission-cycles/

Electric vehicles consume far less raw material (metals) than fossil fueled cars
When taking into account the recycling of the battery cell materials and that the majority of the metal content is recovered, T&E calculates how much is ‘consumed’ or ‘lost’ during the lifetime of an EV. Under the EU’s current recycling recovery rate target, around 30 kilograms of metals would be lost (i.e. not recovered).

In contrast, the study shows that the weight of petrol or diesel that is burned during the average lifetime of a vehicle is around 300-400 times more than the total quantity of battery cells metals ‘lost’. Over its lifetime, an average ICE car burns close to 17,000 liters of petrol, which would be equivalent to a stack of oil barrels 90m high.

...
		
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https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/

This suggests they are not as green as you like to make out.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/

This suggests they are not as green as you like to make out.
		
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Only if you get your energy from dirty source

An old arguement that's stupid 

What's easier.. changing the grid to pure green or changing cars then changing the grid slowly?

Im with octupus. 100% of My energy is green that's their policy .. however not all are but that will come in time

It's like when they put new boilers in that have to run off hydrogen aswell as GAs with the view of changing the mains supply ... Not green ATM but could be over time.


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## DaveR (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Only if you get your energy from dirty source

An old arguement that's stupid

What's easier.. changing the grid to pure green or changing cars then changing the grid slowly?

Im with octupus. 100% of My energy is green that's their policy .. however not all are but that will come in time

It's like when they put new boilers in that have to run off hydrogen aswell as GAs with the view of changing the mains supply ... Not green ATM but could be over time.
		
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Once again you have cherry picked to suit your argument.  Try reading the entire article. What about the harmful byproducts from extracting lithium and the dumping of old batteries?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So between 85 and 90 efficient in the car itself?

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/10/electric-car-myth-buster-efficiency/

Either way FAR more efficient than the ice cars that are worse than the 25% I put for the average ..
		
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https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/how-efficient-is-your-cars-engine

...today’s gasoline engines are only around* 30 to 35 percent efficient*,

So you quote the engine efficiency for EV's, but vehicle efficiency for ICE's, and your defence for this specious argument is that "either way they are far more efficient".  So much for fact checking.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Once again you have cherry picked to suit your argument.  Try reading the entire article. What about the harmful byproducts from extracting lithium and the dumping of old batteries?
		
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From a 3 year old article that doesn't move with the times?

Batteries are litterally used in other things not "dumped" by any means 

A guy in Surry takes old leaf batteries from written off cars and puts them in older leafs to keep them going longer and the battieres from them he has powering his warehouse from stored solar 


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779.amp

Times change 

That article is 3 years out of date. It's pretty much redundant


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/how-efficient-is-your-cars-engine

...today’s gasoline engines are only around* 30 to 35 percent efficient*,

So you quote the engine efficiency for EV's, but vehicle efficiency for ICE's, and your defence for this specious argument is that "either way they are far more efficient".  So much for fact checking.
		
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In your own article it says 12-20% efficient .. so which is it?

Fact is ev is far better for the environment than Ice and the fact your trying to justify it makes you a bigger idiot than I took you for.


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## DaveR (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			From a 3 year old article that doesn't move with the times?

Batteries are litterally used in other things not "dumped" by any means

A guy in Surry takes old leaf batteries from written off cars and puts them in older leafs to keep them going longer and the battieres from them he has powering his warehouse from stored solar


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779.amp

Times change

That article is 3 years out of date. It's pretty much redundant
		
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OK, if you say so........


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## Leftitshort (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			In your own article it says 12-20% efficient .. so which is it?

Fact is ev is far better for the environment than Ice and the fact your trying to justify it makes you a bigger idiot than I took you for.
		
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Not sure you’re going to win the argument by being abusive.
There’s no doubt EV’s are a future, they may not be the future, but after 2030 everyone’s choice will be limited.

The biggest issue I see with EV’s is still infrastructure. I charged one the other day, it took 18 hrs on a (inefficient) 7 kw charger. If you’re driving one, make sure you have access to fast charging. You seem really evangelical around climate change. Have you really done everything you can before you preach? Still got an ice ✅ gone full vegan? Flying anywhere soon?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			In your own article *it says 12-20% efficient* .. so which is it?.
		
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The article states 12-30%, so yet again you've changed the facts to suit your argument;

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

Energy efficient. EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about *12%–30%* of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/10/electric-car-myth-buster-efficiency/

According to the US Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, “EVs convert about *59%–62%* of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about *17%–21%* of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.”  An electric motor typically is between* 85% and 90%* efficient.

https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/how-efficient-is-your-cars-engine

...today’s gasoline engines are only around *30 to 35 percent* efficient,

So your claim that an " EV is 86% efficient on average" is clearly incorrect based on either one of these articles; you've taken the efficiency of the electric motor and applied it to the whole electric vehicle, but not done the same for the ICE.   Cherry picking your facts to suit your argument.



pauljames87 said:



			Fact is ev is far better for the environment than Ice and the fact your trying to justify it makes you a bigger idiot than I took you for.
		
Click to expand...

The EV is far better for the environment than the ICE vehicle "at the tailpipe"; but unfortunately it is impossible to ignore all the other factors that go into getting both vehicles onto the road if you are going to accurately compare their environmental impact; manufacturing EV's creates more pollution per vehicle than a similar sized ICE vehicle.    The fact that rather than acknowledge others concerns about the pros & cons you've chosen to resort to insults tells me all I need to know about the validity of your arguments.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 14, 2021)

You only have to look at the VW emissions scandal to see you can’t belive everything you read about these cars.
All manufacturers use energy and resources to make things.
I bought a new ICE car last year but the EV equivalent was almost £6000 more .
Until that changes we can debate until we’re blue in the face ,nothing will change significantly.


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## cliveb (Nov 14, 2021)

The problem with citing articles published on the internet is that the vast majority of them have an agenda to push. Everyone will be able to quote a report from somewhere that will support their own viewpoint. So this game of top trumps is ultimately futile.

One thing's for sure when it comes to EVs. Right now, in China and India, every EV is more damaging to the environment than a petrol car, simply because the electricity used to charge it comes primarily from burning coal. Does that mean we should stop developing EVs? Of course not. But it's far more important to switch grid generation to renewables than eliminate ICE cars. Banning ICE cars from 2030 is a political smoke screen.


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## cliveb (Nov 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Im with octupus. 100% of My energy is green that's their policy .. however not all are but that will come in time.
		
Click to expand...

I'm with Bulb (for now - I am aware they are in trouble). They also claim that 100% of their electricity is green. But it's not really true. It's only the wholesale electricity they buy that's all green - they can't choose which electrons are delivered to our homes.

Suppose every home in the country switched to Octopus. I'd like to see how they could maintain their 100% green pledge then, because they couldn't.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2021)

cliveb said:



*The problem with citing articles published on the internet is that the vast majority of them have an agenda to push.* Everyone will be able to quote a report from somewhere that will support their own viewpoint. *So this game of top trumps is ultimately futile.*

One thing's for sure when it comes to EVs. Right now, in China and India, every EV is more damaging to the environment than a petrol car, simply because the electricity used to charge it comes primarily from burning coal. Does that mean we should stop developing EVs? Of course not. But it's far more important to switch grid generation to renewables than eliminate ICE cars. Banning ICE cars from 2030 is a political smoke screen.
		
Click to expand...

Get that, but when then initial fanciful claims include such stuff, there's little option but to resort to similar to refute.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

cliveb said:



			I'm with Bulb (for now - I am aware they are in trouble). They also claim that 100% of their electricity is green. But it's not really true. It's only the wholesale electricity they buy that's all green - they can't choose which electrons are delivered to our homes.

Suppose every home in the country switched to Octopus. I'd like to see how they could maintain their 100% green pledge then, because they couldn't.
		
Click to expand...

Very true you can't pick what comes to your house, and they wouldn't keep up now

However by the time the ban takes shape and in the years after how many of those electron's will be green compared to now?

Switching the grid will take time but will be done in the background and we will barely notice.



Leftitshort said:



			Not sure you’re going to win the argument by being abusive.
There’s no doubt EV’s are a future, they may not be the future, but after 2030 everyone’s choice will be limited.

The biggest issue I see with EV’s is still infrastructure. I charged one the other day, it took 18 hrs on a (inefficient) 7 kw charger. If you’re driving one, make sure you have access to fast charging. You seem really evangelical around climate change. Have you really done everything you can before you preach? Still got an ice ✅ gone full vegan? Flying anywhere soon?
		
Click to expand...

Not about being Evangelical it's about doing all you can to reduce.

Where as some refuse to do anything full stop as why should they.. why should we be made to cut down..

Always someone elses fault / problem.

Like I'd said before

People are selfish and hate change.


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2021)

If we stop making EVs tomorrow, lithium mining would still continue as it's used to power every laptop/mobile phone/tablet on the planet. Not forgetting battery tools, lawnmowers and our very own electric trollies. They would also need cobalt which is used in the refinement of crude oil when making diesel and petrol.
A small point about the cars carbon footprint.......
Does an ICE car EVER become carbon neutral?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 15, 2021)

I think we all agree things have to change, but I would argue ‘do as I say not as I do’ arguements won’t win people over especially  when you’re still running an old diesel SUV or have air con retro fitted into your house.


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think we all agree things have to change, but Inwouldnargue ‘do as I say not as I do’ arguements won’t win people over especially  when you’re still running an old diesel SUV or have air con retro fitted into your house.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. But one person isn't going to change anything, it's up to governments and I'm sure that was the idea behind COP26. It's just a shame it wasn't thought through very well.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think we all agree things have to change, but Inwouldnargue ‘do as I say not as I do’ arguements won’t win people over especially  when you’re still running an old diesel SUV or have air con retro fitted into your house.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.cielowigle.com/blog/environmentally-clean-hvac-system/

Yes those horrible HVAC systems that arent bad for the environment.. it's almost like modern tech beats old views 

Again.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.cielowigle.com/blog/environmentally-clean-hvac-system/

Yes those horrible HVAC systems that arent bad for the environment.. it's almost like modern tech beats old views

Again.
		
Click to expand...

I have no problem with people advocating greener options, but hypocrisy will never win people over.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I have no problem with people advocating greener options, but hypocrisy will never win people over.
		
Click to expand...

This thread is about reducing carbon emissions no? So using a HVAC to reduce use of a gas boiler is reducing emissions no? Or doesn't it fit your high standards?

Managed to cut boiler usage by 3/4 by topping up with a heat pump

That's a lot of emissions saved 

But that doesn't suit your narrative does it.


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## Rlburnside (Nov 15, 2021)

Just read that Premiership clubs use flights to away matches for as little as 10 minutes to under 1 hour flight time. 

At the same time some clubs are pushing greener policy’s,my own club Spurs had a carbon neutral day and asking fans to do their bit as well.

So much hypocrisy around climate change. 

It amazes me the activists haven’t targeted formula one,  that sport must have the worst pollution count of the lot.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 15, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			It amazes me the activists haven’t targeted formula one,  that sport must have the worst pollution count of the lot.
		
Click to expand...

Why would that be?


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## Jimaroid (Nov 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If we stop making EVs tomorrow, lithium mining would still continue
		
Click to expand...

Exactly the same inductive argument that is used to perpetuate fossil fuel consumption. “We’re mining it anyway so we should use it!”

No form of mining is clean. Extracting minerals of any kind out of the earth is an energy exchange with many by-products. We’re bringing energy out of the earth and using it on the surface where we exist. 

We need to reverse the carbon cycle, not find and rely on new things to keep digging out of the earth. 

Humans are idiots.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2021)

https://impactful.ninja/worst-sports-for-the-environment/

No golf for eco warriors then


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## pendodave (Nov 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://impactful.ninja/worst-sports-for-the-environment/

No golf for eco warriors then
		
Click to expand...

No golf in Vegas, maybe.
Not sure that the environmental impact of most UK courses is anywhere near as significant.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 15, 2021)

Or any sport that uses grass.
That’s me out of a job as well


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2021)

*The greatest threat to our planet is the belief that someone else will save it.*
– _Robert Swan; historian, explorer, and activist_


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why would that be?
		
Click to expand...

Each race, 23 in total, is in a different country. Many of the flights will be long haul. Each one will have every team loading up their cars, gear, hospitality etc onto planes, flying to the next country. £1 says the top drivers and team excecs will take private planes for the journeys. You can argue about the fuel used by the cars in driving, qualifying testing etc but I suspect all of that is dwarfed by the flight emissions. 

World sport generally is not great for flying but for weight of gear, distance etc F1 must be near the top of the tree.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 15, 2021)

I'd bet golf is up there too, loads more events, lots more people with private or chartered jets, and lots more destinations/departure locations...


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## stefanovic (Nov 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			It's difficult to describe the above as anything but 'a load of male bovine manure'!
		
Click to expand...

Strange that when I got home and tuned into Simon Reeve's Lake District program he was pointing out how the LD has been reduced to an artificial landscape by tree felling and over grazing.
Similar to the point I was raising. We need to let the grass grow.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 15, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Strange that when I got home and tuned into Simon Reeve's Lake District program he was pointing out how the LD has been reduced to an artificial landscape by tree felling and over grazing.
Similar to the point I was raising. We need to let the grass grow.
		
Click to expand...

Take that back to basics though and this whole island would be covered in trees, including your house and mine.


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## DaveR (Nov 15, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Not sure you’re going to win the argument by being abusive.
There’s no doubt EV’s are a future, they may not be the future, but after 2030 everyone’s choice will be limited.

The biggest issue I see with EV’s is still infrastructure. I charged one the other day, it took 18 hrs on a (inefficient) 7 kw charger. If you’re driving one, make sure you have access to fast charging. You seem really evangelical around climate change. Have you really done everything you can before you preach? Still got an ice ✅ gone full vegan? Flying anywhere soon?
		
Click to expand...

Don't hold your breath for a reply, he ignores every response that goes against his argument.


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## DaveR (Nov 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Each race, 23 in total, is in a different country. Many of the flights will be long haul. Each one will have every team loading up their cars, gear, hospitality etc onto planes, flying to the next country. £1 says the top drivers and team excecs will take private planes for the journeys. You can argue about the fuel used by the cars in driving, qualifying testing etc but I suspect all of that is dwarfed by the flight emissions.

World sport generally is not great for flying but for weight of gear, distance etc F1 must be near the top of the tree.
		
Click to expand...

True but the other side of the argument is we ban everything and lead miserable lives instead 🤔


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## Rlburnside (Nov 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why would that be?
		
Click to expand...

Well the amount of fuel they burn on practice rounds and the race itself must be a lot, then add transportation of all the cars and accompanying teams around the world it’s not exactly climate friendly.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 15, 2021)

There isn't much data on carbon costs of sports, perhaps there should be? A quick look whilst I'm eating my lunch suggests

F1 in 2019 estimated to have emitted 256,1551 tonnes of CO2. But that doesn't account for any track facilities, crowd attendance or crowd transportation. 

The Russia 2018 World Cup was estimated to cost 2,160,000 tonnes of CO2. But that didn't account for the building of any stadiums.

The City of London generates approximately 99,000,000 tonnes of CO2 in one year.

Ban cities I guess.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Don't hold your breath for a reply, he ignores every response that goes against his argument.
		
Click to expand...

Or counter argument which you ignore? Just because Google doesn't tell you what you want to hear ..

Also surely if we are going to ban high polluting events forum meets are up there.. people traveling miles to play golf and fill the world with hot air ..

Or we can each do our little bit and not be whining pathetic little people picking holes in others attempts whilst the world burns up 👍


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2021)

DaveR said:



			True but the other side of the argument is we ban everything and lead miserable lives instead 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I get that. In this instance I was replying to a specific question rather than making a moral judgement. I think @BiMGuy asked it genuinely, he isn't a sarky poster although he could have pulled the wool over my eyes on this one . 

Very few sports have green credentials, it is just a matter of how bad really. No point in just existing but we do have to exist and look after things a bit better though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Or counter argument which you ignore? Just because Google doesn't tell you what you want to hear ..

Also surely if we are going to ban high polluting events forum meets are up there.. people traveling miles to play golf and fill the world with hot air ..

Or we can each do our little bit and not be whining pathetic little people picking holes in others attempts whilst the world burns up 👍
		
Click to expand...

Everyone will be doing their own little bit 

But they will be doing without the need to point fingers at others , show everyone how great they are , insult others and be a hypocrite 

A lot of people would love to have an electric car and be fully green but it’s just not practical about 

No one I know is doing “nothing” and people i know aren’t looking to do nothing because they don’t care about the planet or the future - things you have accused others off. 

You don’t need to thrown all the eco stuff in everyone’s faces as if it’s a look at me and what are you doing about it - it doesn’t come across well at all


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Everyone will be doing their own little bit 

But they will be doing without the need to point fingers at others , show everyone how great they are , insult others and be a hypocrite 

A lot of people would love to have an electric car and be fully green but it’s just not practical about 

No one I know is doing “nothing” and people i know aren’t looking to do nothing because they don’t care about the planet or the future - things you have accused others off. 

You don’t need to thrown all the eco stuff in everyone’s faces as if it’s a look at me and what are you doing about it - it doesn’t come across well at all
		
Click to expand...

So let's look at the facts rather than the rubbish you like to post about it 

I've reduced my carbon footprint by 

Cutting down My boiler use for a more eco friendly heat pump.. from 100kw gas a day to 30kw 

Reduced driving of the higher polluting car (that is still eco enough to get into the ultra low emission zone and will be road legal until it stops working) 

Increased millage of the ev including car pooling with colleagues so they reduce their use of fossil fuels and use electric instead 

Electric from green sources 

Heat pump tumble over a normal tumble which uses far less electric 

Cutting down on meat eating

Cutting down waste 

Yet massive hypocrisy due to having air con (that's HVAC .. and very low pollution / energy use) and having a diesel that bearly does 3000 miles

Have a beautiful day Phillip.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've reduced my carbon footprint by
		
Click to expand...

Posting on the forum less?


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## Captainron (Nov 15, 2021)

I’m in the weeds on the meat eating thing 

Plus I then cook it over wood. 

Love a braai!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Posting on the forum less?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe a few who have added nothing to this thread and just want an arguement all time 

The likes of Phil, blue in Munich and DaveR could heed this advise?


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## DaveR (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Also surely if we are going to ban high polluting events forum meets are up there.. people traveling miles to play golf and fill the world with hot air ..
		
Click to expand...

Does this mean nobody has to worry that you'll turn up at one?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So let's look at the facts rather than the rubbish you like to post about it

I've reduced my carbon footprint by

Cutting down My boiler use for a more eco friendly heat pump.. from 100kw gas a day to 30kw

Reduced driving of the higher polluting car (that is still eco enough to get into the ultra low emission zone and will be road legal until it stops working)

Increased millage of the ev including car pooling with colleagues so they reduce their use of fossil fuels and use electric instead

Electric from green sources

Heat pump tumble over a normal tumble which uses far less electric

Cutting down on meat eating

Cutting down waste

Yet massive hypocrisy due to having air con (that's HVAC .. and very low pollution / energy use) and having a diesel that bearly does 3000 miles

Have a beautiful day Phillip.
		
Click to expand...

That’s great you’re doing your bit for the environment- so am I and my company and my golf club etc but then I don’t need to show that off on the forum and then point fingers at others who you perceive and accuse of not caring about the planet.

We all want to make the place a nice planet to live on


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe a few who have added nothing to this thread and just want an arguement all time 

The likes of Phil, blue in Munich and DaveR could heed this advise?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe just take all the bickering back to the football thread.

I understand there are no games this week but maybe spare the rest of us 👍


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## PNWokingham (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Or counter argument which you ignore? Just because Google doesn't tell you what you want to hear ..

Also surely if we are going to ban high polluting events forum meets are up there.. people traveling miles to play golf and fill the world with hot air ..

Or we can each do our little bit and *not be whining pathetic little people picking holes in others attempts whilst the world burns* up 👍
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:





Click to expand...

Thanks for the input.. really insightful as always


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## PNWokingham (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Thanks for the input.. really insightful as always
		
Click to expand...

you know when you were told to wind yer neck in a few months ago - time for a take 2! Award yourseld a gold star, and go and take your diesel for a nice hike to get a big juicy steak!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			you know when you were told to wind yer neck in a few months ago - time for a take 2! Award yourseld a gold star, and go and take your diesel for a nice hike to get a big juicy steak!
		
Click to expand...

Again thanks for the insight... Such useful tips from a top guy 

Oh wait


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## BiMGuy (Nov 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Oh, I get that. In this instance I was replying to a specific question rather than making a moral judgement. I think @BiMGuy asked it genuinely, he isn't a sarky poster although he could have pulled the wool over my eyes on this one .

Very few sports have green credentials, it is just a matter of how bad really. No point in just existing but we do have to exist and look after things a bit better though.
		
Click to expand...

Me sarcastic? Never.
I was however genuinely asking why someone thought F1 was one of the worst sports for emissions. When in fact it isn’t. F1 have taken huge steps to reduce emissions, it will never be perfect, but then nothing is. The F1 business side of this weekends race was carbon neutral. 

Even if we go back to living in caves, humans will have an impact on our environment. 

Personally, I’d start with banning log burners.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Me sarcastic? Never.
I was however genuinely asking why someone thought F1 was one of the worst sports for emissions. When in fact it isn’t. F1 have taken huge steps to reduce emissions, it will never be perfect, but then nothing is. The F1 business side of this weekends race was carbon neutral.

Even if we go back to living in caves, humans will have an impact on our environment.

Personally, I’d start with banning log burners.
		
Click to expand...

I knew I could trust you 😁.

I don't fully buy the carbon neutral thing though. Are you talking about purely the race itself or the whole transport to and from? What do they do, just pay for trees to be planted somewhere? I'm not being sarky now, 😉, genuinely interested when organisations, companies etc make those claims. Very few stand up to much scrutiny.


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## cliveb (Nov 15, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Well the amount of fuel they burn on practice rounds and the race itself must be a lot, then add transportation of all the cars and accompanying teams around the world it’s not exactly climate friendly.
		
Click to expand...

The fuel burned by the actual F1 cars is not worth talking about. The entire grid burns less fuel in a season than a 747 burns on a single transatlantic flight.
It's moving the circus around the world that contributes 99%+ of F1's carbon footprint (which of course is quite high).


----------



## cliveb (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've reduced my carbon footprint by
[lots of worthy eco-friendly things]
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, you've offset pretty much everything on the list by having three offspring.
(In your defense, I presume you were planning to have only two and got surprised?)

One of the biggest contributions anyone can make for the future of the planet is to avoid breeding.


----------



## Leftitshort (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Again thanks for the insight... Such useful tips from a top guy

Oh wait
		
Click to expand...

I don’t understand why you’re being so defensive. You make some valid points but all of these micro aggressions are detracting from your message. we all need to do more, I’m eating less red meat, and will consider a EV if I can make the charging work. 
There will always be sceptics, shouting at them and belittling them won’t bring them with you.
Just ask yourself 
 ‘What would Jesus do?’


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			I don’t understand why you’re being so defensive. You make some valid points but all of these micro aggressions are detracting from your message. we all need to do more, I’m eating less red meat, and will consider a EV if I can make the charging work. 
There will always be sceptics, shouting at them and belittling them won’t bring them with you.
Just ask yourself 
 ‘What would Jesus do?’
		
Click to expand...

If you read the ev thread it's always the same names piping up with claims of how bad EVs are is the problem and it's just boring 



cliveb said:



			Unfortunately, you've offset pretty much everything on the list by having three offspring.
(In your defense, I presume you were planning to have only two and got surprised?)

One of the biggest contributions anyone can make for the future of the planet is to avoid breeding.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, went for 2 and got twins.

But DW I've had the snip so no more surprises


----------



## Robster59 (Nov 15, 2021)

Whatever happened to reasoned discussion?  Surely we can discuss this without people turning to personal insults?
You're all a shower of winkers!


----------



## chellie (Nov 15, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Whatever happened to reasoned discussion?  Surely we can discuss this without people turning to personal insults?
You're all a shower of winkers!
		
Click to expand...

Obviously can't


----------



## Ye Olde Boomer (Nov 15, 2021)

The internet is the worst possible venue at which to seek reasonable discussion.
Even some who are generally polite tend to become serious assholes on the internet.
I claim no personal innocence in this matter, but I have been trying to keep it in mind more than I have in the past.


----------



## Robster59 (Nov 15, 2021)

chellie said:



			Obviously can't

Click to expand...

Line 2 was merely an attempt at humour.  I guess it will go over some heads.  Wink added for clarification.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So let's look at the facts rather than the rubbish you like to post about it

I've reduced my carbon footprint by

Cutting down My boiler use for a more eco friendly heat pump.. from 100kw gas a day to 30kw

Reduced driving of the higher polluting car (that is still eco enough to get into the ultra low emission zone and will be road legal until it stops working)

Increased millage of the ev including car pooling with colleagues so they reduce their use of fossil fuels and use electric instead

Electric from green sources

Heat pump tumble over a normal tumble which uses far less electric

Cutting down on meat eating

Cutting down waste

Yet massive hypocrisy due to having air con (that's HVAC .. and very low pollution / energy use) and having a diesel that bearly does 3000 miles

Have a beautiful day Phillip.
		
Click to expand...

You may be wealthy enough to install a heat pump system and drive an ev car plus a ice but what about the people that can't afford these things, are they uncaring about the environment or lazy.  Rather than insulting people how about explaining how these people can get on the heat pump/ev train.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You may be wealthy enough to install a heat pump system and drive an ev car plus a ice but what about the people that can't afford these things, are they uncaring about the environment or lazy.  Rather than insulting people how about explaining how these people can get on the heat pump/ev train.
		
Click to expand...

Been done to death on the ev thread, and the same people pick holes in every bit of postive posted so meh


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Been done to death on the ev thread, and the same people pick holes in every bit of postive posted so meh
		
Click to expand...

OK, you don't want to.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, you don't want to.
		
Click to expand...

I've been through many postives, ways to get into EVs on the cheap. With in depth detail but the same 4 ball of doom and gloom pop up to moan and pick holes 

It's boring.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've been through many postives, ways to get into EVs on the cheap. With in depth detail but the same 4 ball of doom and gloom pop up to moan and pick holes

It's boring.
		
Click to expand...

Not trying to pick any holes.  I am genuinely interested in how a very large amount of the population can possibly get heat pumps and EVs when they are obviously way out of their price range.  It's a bit like solar panels and feed in rates, the less well off have to subsidise the better off by paying more for their energy.

Also, when you say ways to get EVs on the cheap, what do you mean by cheap?  It's the poorer again that will only be able to afford the old second hand worn out gas guzzlers, how do you suggest they get onto the eco heating/driving ladder.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Not trying to pick any holes.  I am genuinely interested in how a very large amount of the population can possibly get heat pumps and EVs when they are obviously way out of their price range.  It's a bit like solar panels and feed in rates, the less well off have to subsidise the better off by paying more for their energy.

Also, when you say ways to get EVs on the cheap, what do you mean by cheap?  It's the poorer again that will only be able to afford the old second hand worn out gas guzzlers, how do you suggest they get onto the eco heating/driving ladder.
		
Click to expand...

Feel free to pm me about it as anything I post on here the naysayers will just try and pick holes in any postive side so what's the point


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



*The greatest threat to our planet is the belief that someone else will save it.*
– _Robert Swan; historian, explorer, and activist_

Click to expand...

Yes, true.
It's a pity that Carl Sagan wasn't around to give his "Man in his arrogance " speech at Glasgow.
At the very least it should have been read out. 
That speech says it better than anyone else.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Feel free to pm me about it as anything I post on here the naysayers will just try and pick holes in any postive side so what's the point
		
Click to expand...

I've already asked the questions. PM me your answers if you prefer.


----------



## sweaty sock (Nov 16, 2021)

cliveb said:



			The fuel burned by the actual F1 cars is not worth talking about. The entire grid burns less fuel in a season than a 747 burns on a single transatlantic flight.
It's moving the circus around the world that contributes 99%+ of F1's carbon footprint (which of course is quite high).
		
Click to expand...

The other thing to mention is the technology trickle down.  KERS and electric motors have come a very long way thanks to F1 technology.  Every modern car is more efficient and burns less fuel (whether dead dinosaurs or magical fairy dust) thanks to brake and tyre technology developed in F1. F1 continues to attract alot more high flyers in research and development than the green movement, and puts them all to work on difficult problems with a better budget.  So there are a good number of intangible benefits.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 16, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			The other thing to mention is the technology trickle down.  KERS and electric motors have come a very long way thanks to F1 technology.  Every modern car is more efficient and burns less fuel (whether dead dinosaurs or magical fairy dust) thanks to brake and tyre technology developed in F1. F1 continues to attract alot more high flyers in research and development than the green movement, and puts them all to work on difficult problems with a better budget.  So there are a good number of intangible benefits.
		
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I think F1 tech is over egged, the FIA have dumbed it down with too many restrictions and the changes we see are very slow paced.
Biggest changes are when legislation comes in. When the fleets were going to be fined for having a co2 over the average, the OEM car manufacturers worked out their fines then strategically looked at what they could do and where their big misses were.
We had to stop producing certain spec cars .. so goodbye classic defender and the 5litre Jags lost 100bhp as well. More hybridisation was introduced such has mhev, hev and phev. China legislation forced 30miles range out of the hev and phev. 
The really big OEMS have got their electric platforms out in market now, their combustion based platforms will be killed off .


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I think F1 tech is over egged, the FIA have dumbed it down with too many restrictions and the changes we see are very slow paced.
Biggest changes are when legislation comes in. When the fleets were going to be fined for having a co2 over the average, the OEM car manufacturers worked out their fines then strategically looked at what they could do and where their big misses were.
We had to stop producing certain spec cars .. so goodbye classic defender and the 5litre Jags lost 100bhp as well. More hybridisation was introduced such has mhev, hev and phev. China legislation forced 30miles range out of the hev and phev.
The really big OEMS have got their electric platforms out in market now, their combustion based platforms will be killed off .
		
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I do find it remarkable that before this petrol and diesel ban they didn't ban cars that produce less than say 40 mpg minimum to encourage us to preserve oil rather than just burn through it

Same with speed limits, not reduced back down to 50s like in the oil crisis of the past
. Would really increase mpg

Also surprised they didn't ban non hybrids say from 2025 because hybrids are cracking tech and would really help people make the switch .. more affordable and cover the distance required

Some could do full ev mode on a plug in no problem others could just use it to top up their mpg which reduces emissions


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## sweaty sock (Nov 16, 2021)

Yeah, but the infrastructure still needshuge development.  Sure there's lots of charging points,  but if you look at the average service station i reckon the volume of cars being filled up with fossil fuels out numbers those being plugged in by 100 to 1.  Imagine how many cars go through the 15 petrol pumps in the 20 minutes it takes to top up an all electric.  I'm still of the opinion that elecrric isnt the answer.   I think once hydrogen is made as safe as petrol, its much easier to see service stations swapped to that.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Yeah, but the infrastructure still needshuge development.  Sure there's lots of charging points,  but if you look at the average service station i reckon the volume of cars being filled up with fossil fuels out numbers those being plugged in by 100 to 1.  Imagine how many cars go through the 15 petrol pumps in the 20 minutes it takes to top up an all electric.  I'm still of the opinion that elecrric isnt the answer.   I think once hydrogen is made as safe as petrol, its much easier to see service stations swapped to that.
		
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Only green hydrogen.. otherwise it becomes semi pointless

I'm a firm believer that both are the answer

A hybrid if you will. It will become diesel and petrol 

Hydrogen will be for lorries. Drivers that need longer distance 

Electric for those doing short distance

So many can do electric on the majority of their drives.. average drive is 30 miles a day .. EVs do 150 miles plus that's a week worth on a charge (working week)

It will be a fine balance but also better battery tech is on the way with 500 mile charges with quicker time


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## sweaty sock (Nov 16, 2021)

Same as green electricity... which if all cars become electric by 2030, well, we'll need some more nuclear sites...

Incidentally does nuclear count as green?  I assume it does....


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Same as green electricity... which if all cars become electric by 2030, well, we'll need some more nuclear sites...

Incidentally does nuclear count as green?  I assume it does....
		
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Indeed it does. The micro nuclear plants are on the way

The high speed cable from Norway is done in which hydropower is sent and we send them wind power 

The French cable once back on line sends us clean nuclear energy

If the gov could install all new builds with solar that would help , same with battieres to store the power


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## harpo_72 (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I do find it remarkable that before this petrol and diesel ban they didn't ban cars that produce less than say 40 mpg minimum to encourage us to preserve oil rather than just burn through it

Same with speed limits, not reduced back down to 50s like in the oil crisis of the past
. Would really increase mpg

Also surprised they didn't ban non hybrids say from 2025 because hybrids are cracking tech and would really help people make the switch .. more affordable and cover the distance required

Some could do full ev mode on a plug in no problem others could just use it to top up their mpg which reduces emissions
		
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Have a look at the lynk&co 001 it’s phev and hev but it has a larger range than 30miles on pure battery. It’s probably more inline with what should be done with hybrids. 
The problem for all the OEMs is the Germans wanting to do ridiculous speeds. We really need them to reduce them down to our speeds. The consequences are lighter vehicles because you don’t have to engineer for these high speeds. Brake discs drop in weight, tyre weight reduces, impact structure changes , engine sizes reduce … let’s not beat about the bush here the Germans are an environmental nightmare


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Have a look at the lynk&co 001 it’s phev and hev but it has a larger range than 30miles on pure battery. It’s probably more inline with what should be done with hybrids.
The problem for all the OEMs is the Germans wanting to do ridiculous speeds. We really need them to reduce them down to our speeds. The consequences are lighter vehicles because you don’t have to engineer for these high speeds. Brake discs drop in weight, tyre weight reduces, impact structure changes , engine sizes reduce … let’s not beat about the bush here *the Germans are an environmental nightmare*

Click to expand...

Ironic when the Green party over there have been part of govt coalitions over and over. They either are not very good or just get out muscled each time.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ironic when the Green party over there have been part of govt coalitions over and over. They either are not very good or just get out muscled each time.
		
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Yup, and that’s why we should be giving them some hell over it. They need to clean up and stop all of this. 
Can you imagine the range a Porsche Tycan or Audi E tron would have if they dropped their speeds to sub 100mph? JLR product would benefit as well, it’s crazy having a 2800kg 4x4 doing 160mph+ (admittedly it does it very well - but it’s pointless) .. the Germans have caused the top trumps of speed for prestige vehicles with their one section of unlimited autobahn


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## Robster59 (Nov 16, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Yeah, but the infrastructure still needshuge development.  Sure there's lots of charging points,  but if you look at the average service station i reckon the volume of cars being filled up with fossil fuels out numbers those being plugged in by 100 to 1.  Imagine how many cars go through the 15 petrol pumps in the 20 minutes it takes to top up an all electric.  I'm still of the opinion that elecrric isnt the answer.   I think once hydrogen is made as safe as petrol, its much easier to see service stations swapped to that.
		
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I was watching a talk from the major producers from the Hydrogen Transition Summit at  COP26 last week and the general consensus is that Hydrogen will not be used for cars, and perhaps not even for light vans.  They believe electric will still be used for these.


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## bobmac (Nov 16, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Same as green electricity... which if all cars become electric by 2030, well, we'll need some more nuclear sites...
		
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All ICE cars will not disappear in 2030, there will be millions still driving around after that.

_*''the growth in wind power from the extra offshore wind farms being developed will adequately meet the future demand for electrifying transport – an extra 100 terrawatt hours from our current 300 terrawatt hours consumed.*_

_*There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily.''*_​https://www.nationalgrid.com/storie...ries/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars



sweaty sock said:



			Yeah, but the infrastructure still needshuge development.  Sure there's lots of charging points,  but if you look at the average service station i reckon the volume of cars being filled up with fossil fuels out numbers those being plugged in by 100 to 1.  Imagine how many cars go through the 15 petrol pumps in the 20 minutes it takes to top up an all electric.  I'm still of the opinion that elecrric isnt the answer.   I think once hydrogen is made as safe as petrol, its much easier to see service stations swapped to that.
		
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But those who have changed, the majority will charge at home.
The rest will charge at the supermarket, the multistorey, the cinema, the work place, the curry house, the golf club, in fact anywhere you can park.

https://www.zap-map.com/connected-kerb-level-up-ev-charging-uk/

As for hydrogen, it's just too expensive right now.
You use electricity to separate hydrogen from oxygen, you then put the hydrogen in the car which turns it into electricity to move the car.
Why add the middle man?
Because it's quicker to fill a hydrogen car than an EV? True enough if you live near one of the 11 garages in the UK that sell hydrogen at £7-9 per gallon.
Not to mention how to store, transport and deliver pressurised hydrogen wont come cheap.
And if you think Battery cars are expensive, you won't get any change out of £65,000 for one of the 2 hydrogen models available.
Sure, the costs will come down but the the EV is 10 years ahead in regards cost and choice and for the 60% of all car owners who can charge at home, it's a no brainer.


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## Bertie111 (Nov 16, 2021)

One of the focuses I have heard in past is that ground source siphons just function admirably with underfloor warming.


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## Robster59 (Nov 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			All ICE cars will not disappear in 2030, there will be millions still driving around after that.

_*''the growth in wind power from the extra offshore wind farms being developed will adequately meet the future demand for electrifying transport – an extra 100 terrawatt hours from our current 300 terrawatt hours consumed.*_

_*There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily.''*_​https://www.nationalgrid.com/storie...ries/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars



But those who have changed, the majority will charge at home.
The rest will charge at the supermarket, the multistorey, the cinema, the work place, the curry house, the golf club, in fact anywhere you can park.

https://www.zap-map.com/connected-kerb-level-up-ev-charging-uk/

As for hydrogen, it's just too expensive right now.
You use electricity to separate hydrogen from oxygen, you then put the hydrogen in the car which turns it into electricity to move the car.
Why add the middle man?
Because it's quicker to fill a hydrogen car than an EV? True enough if you live near one of the 11 garages in the UK that sell hydrogen at £7-9 per gallon.
Not to mention how to store, transport and deliver pressurised hydrogen wont come cheap.
And if you think Battery cars are expensive, you won't get any change out of £65,000 for one of the 2 hydrogen models available.
Sure, the costs will come down but the the EV is 10 years ahead in regards cost and choice and for the 60% of all car owners who can charge at home, it's a no brainer.
		
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Our company truck fleet will convert 100% to Hydrogen power but, as above, it doesn't look like Hydrogen will be used for powering passenger cars.  Even the hydrogen manufacturers don't believe that will happen.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Our company truck fleet will convert 100% to Hydrogen power but, as above, it doesn't look like Hydrogen will be used for powering passenger cars.  Even the hydrogen manufacturers don't believe that will happen.
		
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A friend of mine who works for one of the bigger car groups tells me they have been asked by Government to look at producing hydrogen cars, so who knows.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Indeed it does. The micro nuclear plants are on the way
		
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In whose lifetime are they on their way? They're not even out of a conceptual design stage the last I read.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			In whose lifetime are they on their way? They're not even out of a conceptual design stage the last I read.
		
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Early 2030s it's believed they will start to come online

Ties in nicely with the new car ban and the take up of EVs


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## Robster59 (Nov 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			A friend of mine who works for one of the bigger car groups tells me they have been asked by Government to look at producing hydrogen cars, so who knows.
		
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It may be they have as an exercise.  I work for one of the worlds biggest hydrogen producers and their message is that they are not looking at it for cars.  I know they have investigated it in the past, but they have now decided that is not the way to go.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Early 2030s it's believed they will start to come online

Ties in nicely with the new car ban and the take up of EVs
		
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That's strange. Because according to the International Atomic Energy Agency the UK won't even exit the design stage until 2031, then will follow a 5 year construction phase before anything is operational as a minimum.

So no, they won't be ready for the take up of EVs.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			That's strange. Because according to the International Atomic Energy Agency the UK won't even exit the design stage until 2031, then will follow a 5 year construction phase before anything is operational as a minimum.

So no, they won't be ready for the take up of EVs.
		
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Rolls  Royce on their home page say early 2030 they will come on line 

Plus not everyone is going to rush to buy ev in 2030 just because they have to . Second hand cars will still sell 

Plus the grid is there.. if it's green or not comes later ..v


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 16, 2021)

The boss of Rolls Royce aero was saying last week that all their engines they produce can work on synthetic fuel. If they can do that for planes, there’s every chance they will do that for cars.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The boss of Rolls Royce aero was saying last week that all their engines they produce can work on synthetic fuel. If they can do that for planes, there’s every chance they will do that for cars.
		
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Maybe the ban of petrol car sales will be a good thing to force firms to develop this new tech rather than just stick with what they know.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Rolls  Royce on their home page say early 2030 they will come on line
		
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That's a marketing statement. 

Here are two simple rules of project management. #1 Always take the money first. #2 Never trust a contractor's schedule.

Both of these apply to Rolls Royce.


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## bobmac (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe the ban of petrol car sales will be a good thing to force firms to develop this new tech rather than just stick with what they know.
		
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As long as manufacturers have ICE cars left in stock, they won't reduce the cost of EVs. If they were the same price, who would chose an ICE car over an EV, knowing the difference in running costs.
What we need is a medium sized EV hatch back with 250 miles of bladder range for about £18-20k


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			That's a marketing statement.

Here are two simple rules of project management. #1 Always take the money first. #2 Never trust a contractor's schedule.

Both of these apply to Rolls Royce.
		
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However whilst that is a "rule" it's conjecture and not fact


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			As long as manufacturers have ICE cars left in stock, they won't reduce the cost of EVs. If they were the same price, who would chose an ICE car over an EV, knowing the difference in running costs.
*What we need is a medium sized EV hatch back with 250 miles of bladder range for about £18-20k*

Click to expand...

Yes please.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			As long as manufacturers have ICE cars left in stock, they won't reduce the cost of EVs. If they were the same price, who would chose an ICE car over an EV, knowing the difference in running costs.
What we need is a medium sized EV hatch back with 250 miles of bladder range for about £18-20k
		
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We also need a change of thought process on how we run our cars 

I'm asked a lot "how long take to charge" well 9 hours if it's empty. However as I always add I'm never empty .. in reality it's 15% an hour and most I'll charge is 5 hours .. normally less 

Just adapt to your life of plug in when get home and let it do its thing or manage over the week 

I'll charge whenever I get to 50% 

Got home from work last night with 87% so not charged overnight

Prob won't tonight 

Might tomorrow


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## sweaty sock (Nov 16, 2021)

Just out of interest how much cheaper are tgey to run.  The only lengthy journey ive ever been in an ev, was around 300 miles, took 1.5 hours of on route charging which im told cost around £40? 

I was expecting it to cost way less...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Just out of interest how much cheaper are tgey to run.  The only lengthy journey ive ever been in an ev, was around 300 miles, took 1.5 hours of on route charging which im told cost around £40?

I was expecting it to cost way less...
		
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Depends on when and how you charge 

On route on average you pay 30p pkw.. maybe even more depends who runs it 

However at home electric car tariff 5p per hour at certain hours.. charger told to not charge outside those hours unless I overide 

£1 a day for 50 mile commute


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## Jimaroid (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However whilst that is a "rule" it's conjecture and not fact
		
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I've already stated the facts from the International Atomic Energy Agency's roadmap for SMR deployment. We won't be seeing any operational reactors until a lot later than you believe.

Would you like to buy some magic beans?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I've already stated the facts from the International Atomic Energy Agency's roadmap for SMR deployment. We won't be seeing any operational reactors until a lot later than you believe.

Would you like to buy some magic beans?
		
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As stated before the grid can cope without them , even if not fully green it can support the cars and will only get greener as time goes on which is what matters.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What we need is a medium sized EV hatch back with 250 miles of bladder range for about £18-20k
		
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That is also able to tow a trailer without the battery being flat before reaching the end of your road.


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## stefanovic (Nov 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Take that back to basics though and this whole island would be covered in trees, including your house and mine.
		
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Britain has nearly been stripped bare of trees. In my area the Forest of Arden is now reduced to patches of woodland.
Some tree planting has happened but too little, too late.
I like to think that a person could walk all day through the forest of broad leaved trees and finding the way by markers.
It must have been paradise.
Trees should not be looked on as barriers to progress.
Our world once had 6 trillion. Now it has half that.
It just illustrates what complete fools politicians and economists are.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 16, 2021)

stefanovic said:



			Britain has nearly been stripped bare of trees. In my area the Forest of Arden is now reduced to patches of woodland.
Some tree planting has happened but too little, too late.
I like to think that a person could walk all day through the forest of broad leaved trees and finding the way by markers.
It must have been paradise.
Trees should not be looked on as barriers to progress.
Our world once had 6 trillion. Now it has half that.
It just illustrates what complete fools *politicians* and economists are.
		
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What does that make the people who voted them in?


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			We also need a change of thought process on how we run our cars 

I'm asked a lot "how long take to charge" well 9 hours if it's empty. However as I always add I'm never empty .. in reality it's 15% an hour and most I'll charge is 5 hours .. normally less 

Just adapt to your life of plug in when get home and let it do its thing or manage over the week 

I'll charge whenever I get to 50% 

Got home from work last night with 87% so not charged overnight

Prob won't tonight 

Might tomorrow
		
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Great, if you can charge at home. But the problem is charging, for most drivers.
Most drivers live in terraced housing or flats or dwellings where home charging isn't possible.
Therefore pure EV is not an option until decent charging time can occur at a charging point, and there is enough of 'em.
For clarity, I am in favour of eliminating ICE cars as soon as possible.
And I would immediately require any new car sold in UK to be at least a hybrid, but it doesn't help to describe what you do in a manner almost suggesting that such is available to all if they put their mind to it.😀


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Great, if you can charge at home. But the problem is charging, for most drivers.
Most drivers live in terraced housing or flats or dwellings where home charging isn't possible.
Therefore pure EV is not an option until decent charging time can occur at a charging point, and there is enough of 'em.
For clarity, I am in favour of eliminating ICE cars as soon as possible.
And I would immediately require any new car sold in UK to be at least a hybrid, but it doesn't help to describe what you do in a manner almost suggesting that such is available to all if they put their mind to it.😀
		
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Bob posted earlier (not sure of the source) that 60% of the country have a drive so would be able to charge 

I can see in the future flat car parks coming with charging points 

Chargers in supermarkets

I mean my golf club has them but their type 1 and need replacing once they are people will use them whilst they play 

Barnet in London if you don't have a drive offer a lamppost charge conversion thing .. which is brilliant idea 

Once we get the cars with 500 charge in under 10 mins I think the issue will become a thing of the past tho


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## DaveR (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I do find it remarkable that before this petrol and diesel ban they didn't ban cars that produce less than say 40 mpg minimum to encourage us to preserve oil rather than just burn through it

Same with speed limits, not reduced back down to 50s like in the oil crisis of the past
. Would really increase mpg

Also surprised they didn't ban non hybrids say from 2025 because hybrids are cracking tech and would really help people make the switch .. more affordable and cover the distance required

Some could do full ev mode on a plug in no problem others could just use it to top up their mpg which reduces emissions
		
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You seem to think that people have enough spare cash to bin off certain cars, buy expensive EVs etc etc. You may have the financial means to do so but many people need a car for basic transport and struggle to afford to run any banger they can.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

DaveR said:



			You seem to think that people have enough spare cash to bin off certain cars, buy expensive EVs etc etc. You may have the financial means to do so but many people need a car for basic transport and struggle to afford to run any banger they can.
		
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You can pick up hybrids very cheap the tech has been around years 

Prius, auris hybrids been around years ..

Pick up for under 5k easily 

Some even 2k for the high milage models.


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## DaveR (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You can pick up hybrids very cheap the tech has been around years

Prius, auris hybrids been around years ..

Pick up for under 5k easily

Some even 2k for the high milage models.
		
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1. They are all crap
2. They start burning fuel after about 20 miles

Hardly fits your 'EVs will save the world' rhetoric.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

DaveR said:



			1. They are all crap
2. They start burning fuel after about 20 miles

Hardly fits your 'EVs will save the world' rhetoric.
		
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Your 2 point is incorrect, those hybrids burn fuel constantly the hybrid tops up the engine 

I constantly got 60 plus mpg out of mine which was remarkable

Their not "crap" they had their place.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Bob posted earlier (not sure of the source) that 60% of the country have a drive so would be able to charge 

I can see in the future flat car parks coming with charging points 

Chargers in supermarkets

I mean my golf club has them but their type 1 and need replacing once they are people will use them whilst they play 

Barnet in London if you don't have a drive offer a lamppost charge conversion thing .. which is brilliant idea 

Once we get the cars with 500 charge in under 10 mins I think the issue will become a thing of the past tho
		
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Yes, things are progressing. But I don't think that anyone is objecting to EV on principle.That they want  ICE levels to stay and EV to go away as an unwelcome thing.?  No, it all boils down to affordability and ability to use the new car technology.
I have mentioned before that I suspect that the technology ( of batteries))we require for fast , full charging is known to have been achieved or will be very soon. But there are reasons why it  cannot be brought in immediately .
The oil industry has to be able to adjust, as others  also. 
It just doesn't seem feasible to me that this  Government and others would push us in the EV direction if they did not know that their driving communities would be able to partake.
And as we have been seeing this last few weeks, there are unrelenting CO2 pressures also.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, things are progressing. But I don't think that anyone is objecting to EV on principle.That they want  ICE levels to stay and EV to go away as an unwelcome thing.?  No, it all boils down to affordability and ability to use the new car technology.
I have mentioned before that I suspect that the technology ( of batteries))we require for fast , full charging is known to have been achieved or will be very soon. But there are reasons why it  cannot be brought in immediately .
The oil industry has to be able to adjust, as others  also.
It just doesn't seem feasible to me that this  Government and others would push us in the EV direction if they did not know that their driving communities would be able to partake.
And as we have been seeing this last few weeks, there are unrelenting CO2 pressures also.
		
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I am a strong believer that the oil industry has been holding ev back for years with back handers and bribes but ofc that's unfounded and just conjecture rather than proof


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## PNWokingham (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I am a strong believer that the oil industry has been holding ev back for years with back handers and bribes but ofc that's unfounded and just conjecture rather than proof
		
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Was that in Harry Potter?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Was that in Harry Potter?
		
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Real insightful again. Really valid input as always 

Always look forward to your classic one liners 

Feel free to write a book for if we run out of bog paper again.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I am a strong believer that the oil industry has been holding ev back for years with back handers and bribes but ofc that's unfounded and just conjecture rather than proof
		
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If that’s true it’s just the sort of thing to start a war.
Oil producers will see their product and influence wain.
Wars have been fought over oil before ,although our politicians would deny that.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Real insightful again. Really valid input as always

Always look forward to your classic one liners

Feel free to write a book for if we run out of bog paper again.
		
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what would be useful if you could exit the discussion rather than keep telling people they should buy second hand hybrids, and there are x amount of driveways in the country so everyone should be ok with an electric or hybrid. You are preaching and repetetive and totally dismissive of any valid points that people raise - and often rude as well. Grow up and stop trying to ram home the same points 400 times and maybe other people would also be able to say give their views without being pounced on. All posts i have read are broadly in agreement with the message of climate change and that things need to change. Things are changing rapidly, by innovation and regulation. The timescales are frightening. And the people who are most affected are those that can do least about it. But you are fine and rightious so i guess that is all good. But stop inflicting your incessant advice that everybody should be able to do what you think is right from your moral preaching perspective.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			what would be useful if you could exit the discussion rather than keep telling people they should buy second hand hybrids, and there are x amount of driveways in the country so everyone should be ok with an electric or hybrid. You are preaching and repetetive and totally dismissive of any valid points that people raise - and often rude as well. Grow up and stop trying to ram home the same points 400 times and maybe other people would also be able to say give their views without being pounced on. All posts i have read are broadly in agreement with the message of climate change and that things need to change. Things are changing rapidly, by innovation and regulation. The timescales are frightening. And the people who are most affected are those that can do least about it. But you are fine and rightious so i guess that is all good. But stop inflicting your incessant advice that everybody should be able to do what you think is right from your moral preaching perspective.
		
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I've had some pleasant convos today with people with valid questions and wonderings about the whole situation

Not sure why you feel the need to constantly stick your nose in?


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## Robster59 (Nov 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			That is also able to tow a trailer without the battery being flat before reaching the end of your road.
		
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I can tow a caravan with my hybrid Skoda Superb.  All battery power is gone though after 50-100 miles in auto hybrid mode.


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## DaveR (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've had some pleasant convos today with people with valid questions and wonderings about the whole situation

Not sure why you feel the need to constantly stick your nose in?
		
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I think pnwokingham said what a lot of people on this forum think, myself included.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

DaveR said:



			I think pnwokingham said what a lot of people on this forum think, myself included.
		
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Ah yes ofc you do.. the four ball of complete doom and gloom

The fun sponges 

Ruins of any good thread 

Classic Dave.

I really couldn't give a rat's what you think.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've had some pleasant convos today with people with valid questions and wonderings about the whole situation

Not sure why you feel the need to constantly stick your nose in?
		
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I’d give up mate. You’ll just have the Old Man Shouts at Cloud clique pile on.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I’d give up mate. You’ll just have the Old Man Shouts at Cloud clique pile on.
		
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Yes I can feel the 4 of them whatsapping each other now to pile in.

Any reason debate goes out window when one of them pipes up

So good evening


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## PNWokingham (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes I can feel the 4 of them whatsapping each other now to pile in.

Any reason debate goes out window when one of them pipes up

So good evening
		
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Whatv4 people are referring too?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Whatv4 people are referring too?
		
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I'll leave you to wonder and work out. Farewell


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## PNWokingham (Nov 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'll leave you to wonder and work out. Farewell
		
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Hallelujah 🥂🥂🥂👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2021)

One of the guys at the club had a MG electric car and has had major issues with it including the batteries shorting out when charging and his range being shocking 

Was looking at the cheapest EV on the market 

https://www.edfenergy.com/for-home/energywise/cheapest-electric-cars-to-buy

Couldn’t how much one of them cost when compared to others on the market

Certainly going to need some big reductions on these cars before they become more affordable especially the decent ones 

The e trons look stunning


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## Jimaroid (Nov 16, 2021)

The only reason EVs are going to be successful is because theres a lot of money to be made and the affluent are buying into the fantasy.

EVs don’t address the root problems we have as an over-populated consumerist society, one that has increasingly high energy demands and one that has a dependance towards addiction of motorised transport, cars in particular.

Instead of looking at how we might break that cycle, and perhaps change society to be less dependant on transport overall, we’re just going to make more cars. It’s dumb. We’ll perpetuate the problem in the name of profit and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One of the guys at the club had a MG electric car and has had major issues with it including the batteries shorting out when charging and his range being shocking

Was looking at the cheapest EV on the market

https://www.edfenergy.com/for-home/energywise/cheapest-electric-cars-to-buy

Couldn’t how much one of them cost when compared to others on the market

Certainly going to need some big reductions on these cars before they become more affordable especially the decent ones

The e trons look stunning
		
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£10k more for the Vauxhall Corsa E compared to a standard Corsa. Nearly £9K difference for the Fiat 500. They've got to get that difference down by a lot to make it not only attractive but also affordable to most people.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			£10k more for the Vauxhall Corsa E compared to a standard Corsa. Nearly £9K difference for the Fiat 500. They've got to get that difference down by a lot to make it not only attractive but also affordable to most people.
		
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The OTR price is almost irrelevant. How much will it cost per month?

Does the Corsa E come with additional options compared to the standard?

Do people not do the maths on overall cost of ownership? I’d be surprised if many EVs came out much more expensive then the equivalent ICE.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			£10k more for the Vauxhall Corsa E compared to a standard Corsa. Nearly £9K difference for the Fiat 500. They've got to get that difference down by a lot to make it not only attractive but also affordable to most people.
		
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The other key is that you really need home charging. Thus a driveway and charging gear. That rules out a large proportion of people owning flats, terrace houses and also in rented accommodation.


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## DaveR (Nov 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The OTR price is almost irrelevant. How much will it cost per month?

Does the Corsa E come with additional options compared to the standard?

Do people not do the maths on overall cost of ownership? I’d be surprised if many EVs came out much more expensive then the equivalent ICE.
		
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I looked at an Ioniq5 in the dealership this afternoon, over £40k. The salesman told me the cost of charging it and it works out about 1/3rd of the cost of running my diesel. I could buy a very nice car for £30k, that's one hell of a lot of miles I'd need to do to break even.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The OTR price is almost irrelevant. How much will it cost per month?

Does the Corsa E come with additional options compared to the standard?

Do people not do the maths on overall cost of ownership? I’d be surprised if many EVs came out much more expensive then the equivalent ICE.
		
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I'd be interested to see the figures for buying a standard Corsa for £16k versus the E version at £26k. Assuming both bought on 0% finance how long would it take to recoup the £10k difference driving say 6000, 8000 or 10000 miles per year between petrol costs and electric charging. Is there much difference in the costs of MOT/servicing ICE v Electric?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



*The OTR price is almost irrelevant. *How much will it cost per month?

Does the Corsa E come with additional options compared to the standard?

Do people not do the maths on overall cost of ownership? I’d be surprised if many EVs came out much more expensive then the equivalent ICE.
		
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Absolutely spot on. 

BMW 840i OTR £75,995 - Deposit £5000 with monthly payments of £715

BMW i4 M50 OTR £64,995 - Deposit £5000 with monthly payments of £896 

The OTR means nothing.

I am on the i4 wait list but looking more and more likely that it will be in to 2023 with delays and order book as it is.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'd be interested to see the figures for buying a standard Corsa for £16k versus the E version at £26k. Assuming both bought on 0% finance how long would it take to recoup the £10k difference driving say 6000, 8000 or 10000 miles per year between petrol costs and electric charging. Is there much difference in the costs of MOT/servicing ICE v Electric?
		
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Mot is the same 

Servicing is cheaper due to lack of things that need monitoring / changing 

12,000 miles a year lease costs me £275 per month

A quick look with same figures Is £240 a month as the e model is top of range so going for similar is £240

£35 a month difference which fuel wise I'm paying £20 a month for 1000 miles a month instead of whatever it would be now in that car


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The OTR price is almost irrelevant. How much will it cost per month?

Does the Corsa E come with additional options compared to the standard?

Do people not do the maths on overall cost of ownership? I’d be surprised if many EVs came out much more expensive then the equivalent ICE.
		
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Corsa Elite petrol; £19,080 OTR, customer deposit £2,862, Deposit including Vauxhall contribution £3,112, 48 months @ £225.73, option to buy £7,144.

Corsa Elite E; £31,045 OTR, customer deposit £4,261.25, Deposit including Vauxhall contribution £7,761.25, 48 months @ £290, option to buy £12,405.

That looks considerably more expensive than a petrol engine version to me, please tell me what I'm missing?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 16, 2021)

One thing I can't help but feel with the EV's now, is how no one talkls of owning one for it's whole lifetime, only "for 3 years then replace it". Surely this push to replace every 3 years does nothing to help the planet, does nothing to help people to sort their finances out and does nothing to incentivise the manufacturers to produce a better and longer lasting product.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			One thing I can't help but feel with the EV's now, is how no one talkls of owning one for it's whole lifetime, only "for 3 years then replace it". Surely this push to replace every 3 years does nothing to help the planet, does nothing to help people to sort their finances out and does nothing to incentivise the manufacturers to produce a better and longer lasting product.
		
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Majority of reason for that is to test the water before buying one 

To see how the battieres truly last against claims in terms of wear 

The company I mention in Surrey that breaths life into old leafs is very much full of people who want to keep their MK1 going because they don't want to waste it 

I'm impressed with year 1 of leasing, if I feel same in year 4 I can look to own one that will suit us better like the Skoda 

No point if electric falls on its butt and hydrogen takes off


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			One thing I can't help but feel with the EV's now, is how no one talkls of owing one for it's whole lifetime, only "for 3 years then replace it". Surely this push to replace every 3 years does nothing to help the planet, does nothing to help people to sort their finances out and does nothing to insentivise the manufacturers to produce a better and longer lasting product.
		
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In fairness I don't think that applies only to EV's; be it an EV or an ICEV the tendency seems to be to effectively rent it on a PCP rather than buy it.

Although we are currently buying Mrs BiM's car on a PCP, we insisted the figures were shifted to a higher monthly payment to leave a vastly reduced option to buy price, which we will exercise & then be payment free.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			In fairness I don't think that applies only to EV's; be it an EV or an ICEV the tendency seems to be to effectively rent it on a PCP rather than buy it.

Although we are currently buying Mrs BiM's car on a PCP, we insisted the figures were shifted to a higher monthly payment to leave a vastly reduced option to buy price, which we will exercise & then be payment free.
		
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I suppose in fairness, Merc sell I think it's 90% of their cars to a lease/PCP.
Whatever powers them, thats a huge ticking timebomb and doesn't help the planet.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I suppose in fairness, Merc sell I think it's 90% of their cars to a lease/PCP.
Whatever powers them, thats a huge ticking timebomb and doesn't help the planet.
		
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It's a money spinner 

Some car companies will price them so u normally can buy the car then you will make say £2000 selling it and that becomes tour next deposit, tying you in 

BMW were famous for getting you in on really low monthly to have a huge balloon so everyone just had to hand back. Nothing to show to go back on a ,"deal" BMW offered them


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I suppose in fairness, Merc sell I think it's 90% of their cars to a lease/PCP.
Whatever powers them, *thats a huge ticking timebomb and doesn't help the planet.*

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Indeed.


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## fundy (Nov 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Corsa Elite petrol; £19,080 OTR, customer deposit £2,862, Deposit including Vauxhall contribution £3,112, 48 months @ £225.73, option to buy £7,144.

Corsa Elite E; £31,045 OTR, customer deposit £4,261.25, Deposit including Vauxhall contribution £7,761.25, 48 months @ £290, option to buy £712,405.

That looks considerably more expensive than a petrol engine version to me, please tell me what I'm missing?
		
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Thats one mighty pricey Corsa if you take up the option to buy!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2021)

Two people from work have this week picked up or ordered the mini electric

One makes sense. Second car.. 13 mile each way to work .. 150 range .. winter will be less 

The other I think she's mental .. lives 40 miles away .. motorway so range will no doubt suffer .. 

Ev would work but a diff model but went for looks 🙄 

Really can't help some people


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2021)

fundy said:



			Thats one mighty pricey Corsa if you take up the option to buy!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Missed the typo, now corrected.


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## fundy (Nov 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Missed the typo, now corrected.
		
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still feels like a pricey Corsa to me lol


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2021)

fundy said:



			still feels like a pricey Corsa to me lol
		
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And me, and for less car in some respects.  When the electric versions can fully match the ICE versions in all respects including price I'll happily consider one, but I'm not sure that will happen in my lifetime.  I'm also not convinced we will ever overcome all the charging access issues for all users,, despite the assurances.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Corsa Elite petrol; £19,080 OTR, customer deposit £2,862, Deposit including Vauxhall contribution £3,112, 48 months @ £225.73, option to buy £7,144.

Corsa Elite E; £31,045 OTR, customer deposit £4,261.25, Deposit including Vauxhall contribution £7,761.25, 48 months @ £290, option to buy £12,405.

That looks considerably more expensive than a petrol engine version to me, please tell me what I'm missing?
		
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Just doing the maths on this:

Corsa Elite petrol - 48 x £225.73 (monthly payments) + £2862 (deposit) + £7144 (to buy) = £20841.04

Corsa Elite E - 48 x £290 (monthly payment) + £4216.25 (deposit) + £12405 (to buy) = £30541.25

I've ignored the Vauxhall contribution as that's not coming out of the buyer's pocket. The petrol comes in at £1760 over the OTR price but the E version comes in at £500 under the OTR price. 

Assuming that people will go for the four years and then hand it back rather than buy it;

Corsa Elite - 48 x £225.73 (monthly payments) + £2862 (deposit) = £13697.04

Corsa Elite E - 48 x £290 (monthly payment) + £4216.25 (deposit) = £18136.25

Can you really save almost £4500 over 4 years on running costs with the E version versus the petrol version?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just doing the maths on this:

Corsa Elite petrol - 48 x £225.73 (monthly payments) + £2862 (deposit) + £7144 (to buy) = £20841.04

Corsa Elite E - 48 x £290 (monthly payment) + £4216.25 (deposit) + £12405 (to buy) = £30541.25

I've ignored the Vauxhall contribution as that's not coming out of the buyer's pocket. The petrol comes in at £1760 over the OTR price but the E version comes in at £500 under the OTR price.

Assuming that people will go for the four years and then hand it back rather than buy it;

Corsa Elite - 48 x £225.73 (monthly payments) + £2862 (deposit) = £13697.04

Corsa Elite E - 48 x £290 (monthly payment) + £4216.25 (deposit) = £18136.25

Can you really save almost £4500 over 4 years on running costs with the E version versus the petrol version?
		
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I don’t think so.
Plus once ICE cars are on their way out the tax revenue that the treasury will lose will have to be replaced.
Will this fall on EV car tax or the price of electricity?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just doing the maths on this:

Corsa Elite petrol - 48 x £225.73 (monthly payments) + £2862 (deposit) + £7144 (to buy) = £20841.04

Corsa Elite E - 48 x £290 (monthly payment) + £4216.25 (deposit) + £12405 (to buy) = £30541.25

I've ignored the Vauxhall contribution as that's not coming out of the buyer's pocket. The petrol comes in at £1760 over the OTR price but the E version comes in at £500 under the OTR price.

Assuming that people will go for the four years and then hand it back rather than buy it;

Corsa Elite - 48 x £225.73 (monthly payments) + £2862 (deposit) = £13697.04

Corsa Elite E - 48 x £290 (monthly payment) + £4216.25 (deposit) = £18136.25

Can you really save almost £4500 over 4 years on running costs with the E version versus the petrol version?
		
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My own personal sums

Corsa electric £822 down.. 4 year lease £274 total cost = £13,926

Corsa petrol 750 down £250 month 4 year lease £12750

Now for the figures you have to base on similar spec no? So electric is top range and automatic.. so I made sure this model is automatic

Have others in their sums?

Cheapest bog standard Corsa....

654 down 218 pm total cost £11,118

However like I said that's bog standard it surely has to be auto at least to be same car?

If it's based on cheapest £2,808 difference
Based on similar spec £1,176 difference

Moving to savings

Both petrols manual comes in 53 mpg auto 49 so I'll call it a round 50mpg for the figures (even tho will you get that?)

Now what is petrol per gallon? Driving home I saw £1.47 a litre that's £6.61 a gallon.. but it's high ATM so shall we call it a round £6 per gallon

My lease was 12,000 miles a year .. this one for clarification I could only get 10,000 miles so is slightly lower .. but in petrols favour so I won't change it but I'll do the sums for 12000 fuel

48000 miles in 4 years based on 50 mpg means you need 960 gallons of fuel at £6 per gallon .. that's £5,760

48000 miles in 4 years based on (I'll be fair and do the predicted range of 200 miles per 45kw charge even tho like mpg it will change) means I need 240 full charges .. of 45 kw meaning 10,800 kw

I do all My charging at home for 5p pkw

Total fuel to go 48000 miles £540

That's £5220 cheaper ... Even without service costs factored in

So basing on the bog standard I'm £2412 better off
Based on the similar auto spec I'm £4,044 better off

Allows for no fuel increase.. but I was fair I did the fuel pretty cheap (1.33 a litre .. will we see that again?) I gave it max mpg which will you get 50 out of it?

I used my charging plan which even with the prices sky rocketing they are keeping the 5p hours for electric cars .. to encourage switching

Either way better off

But with leasing you bearly our anything down .. £822.. and my £274 a month is affordable.. I was paying £295 before this for my last car so I saved £20 a month which is exactly what I bung into octupus every month to make sure my charging is covered .. so far my average home charge pm is £7 but highest of £10 .. due to public charging for free but I still put £20 in so have built a reserve .. so could say it's £960 for my fuel if we want I'd still be quids in


But there is all the figures just on fuel

So yes there is savings to be had

As blue says tho.. PCP is harder with deposit

But I would never go main dealer.. always car wow .. and they will beat that

OTR price means nout as people say

It's what the actual cost is

4 years motoring for me £13926 plus the £960 fuel £14,866

I think whatever sums you throw it would be hard to beat

More miles I do more I save

But I'm paying more a month based on that could have got cheaper for 8000 miles say

So all relevant

In real life terms pre electric I paid £295 lease .. £160 pm fuel to run 2 cars in the house

Now I pay £274 lease .. £20 charge so that's. The £295

£50 into the fuel account

Don't even use that tho as I filled up week before fuel crisis and still have half a tank

So I'm saving £110 on what I actually paid out pm

So that's £5280

That's without the tax saving aswell of £150 per year (which people forget in the costs)

All adds up (£5880 over 4 years without the lower servicing etc) 

But minus from that the £600 I paid to install the charger still over £5000 better off


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I don’t think so.
Plus once ICE cars are on their way out the tax revenue that the treasury will lose will have to be replaced.
Will this fall on EV car tax or the price of electricity?
		
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Price of electric wont be affected too much. What you will see will be a combination

The ev tarrif will go but that just goes to electric company you pay minor tax on more cost and still will be economy 7 tariffs 

We will all start to be charged by the mile for what we drive .. it's the only way 

But that will hit petrol and Ev .. so whilst ev is then taxed.. petrol will be taxed at pump and again.. and let's face it that will happen 

They can't increase electric cost as that would unfairly hit people who for example dont drive


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They can't increase electric cost as that would unfairly hit people who for example dont drive
		
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Have you been following the news about huge energy price rises?


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

Friend of mine went to Edinburgh and back in his Nissan Leaf, had to stop 3 times each way at services. What he saved on electricity v fuel he spent on coffee


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

DaveR said:



			Have you been following the news about huge energy price rises?
		
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Yes. As stated electric car tariffs remain unchanged. 5p at night just the day rate has risen

Those changes are zero to do with tax all down to cost of wholesale

So it's entirely different

Point of ref .. octupus go when I signed up 14p 05:30-01:30 
5p 01:30-05:30

Offer as it stands now 

24p 05:30-01:30
5p 01:30-05:30

That's without their new tariff that's 6 hours at 5p

Struggle to beat that anywhere really


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes. As stated electric car tariffs remain unchanged. 5p at night just the day rate has risen

Those changes are zero to do with tax all down to cost of wholesale

So it's entirely different

Point of ref .. octupus go when I signed up 14p 05:30-01:30
5p 01:30-05:30

Offer as it stands now

24p 05:30-01:30
5p 01:30-05:30

That's without their new tariff that's 6 hours at 5p

Struggle to beat that anywhere really
		
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How can you say prices remain unchanged when you have quoted a rise of 10p per hour? Fine for you as you do all your charging off peak at home but what about people using public chargers?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

DaveR said:



			How can you say prices remain unchanged when you have quoted a rise of 10p per hour? Fine for you as you do all your charging off peak at home but what about people using public chargers?
		
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Public chargers prices are fixed at a lower rate

Gridserve are still fixed at 30p pkwh.

They have their profit margins and buy at wholesale rates

The actual wholesale has gone from 1.5p pkwh to 7ppkwh

The gridserve system which is replacing all charges at motorway services are set at 30p

They also make a lot of their own electric and sell to grid as they own massive amounts of solar farms

Their wholesale costs have bearly changed

Charging on street hasn't gone up

Tesco still do majority of their podpoints for free .. lidl still 22p


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Public chargers prices are fixed at a lower rate

Gridserve are still fixed at 30p pkwh.

*They have their profit margins and buy at wholesale rates*

*The actual wholesale has gone from 1.5p pkwh to 7ppkwh*

The gridserve system which is replacing all charges at motorway services are set at 30p

They also make a lot of their own electric and sell to grid as they own massive amounts of solar farms

Their wholesale costs have bearly changed

Charging on street hasn't gone up

Tesco still do majority of their podpoints for free .. lidl still 22p
		
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And yet you still think the prices won't go up..........


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

DaveR said:



			And yet you still think the prices won't go up..........
		
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🙄 Do you deliberately ignore information?

The price hasn't risen.

Octupus haven't put their prices up for ev .. the night tariff remians unchanged their actually selling at a 2p loss by wholesale 

Gridserve MAKE their own electric, solar farms. They won't be paying the 7p

Whilst they have profit margins .. their still making a lot 

Tesco again still free even tho they are paying 5.5p more for it their still pumping it out for free ...

As I said before. Over 4 years I'm saving over £5k in fuel alone 

Pick as many holes as you want in ev that's a lot of money by anyone's standards.


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			🙄 Do you deliberately ignore information?

The price hasn't risen.

Octupus haven't put their prices up for ev .. the night tariff remians unchanged their actually selling at a 2p loss by wholesale

Gridserve MAKE their own electric, solar farms. They won't be paying the 7p

Whilst they have profit margins .. their still making a lot

Tesco again still free even tho they are paying 5.5p more for it their still pumping it out for free ...

As I said before. Over 4 years I'm saving over £5k in fuel alone

Pick as many holes as you want in ev that's a lot of money by anyone's standards.
		
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I give up, I really can't believe you are so naïve to think that electricity companies will continue to sell at a loss


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

DaveR said:



			I give up, I really can't believe you are so naïve to think that electricity companies will continue to sell at a loss 

Click to expand...

The facts agree with me

Octopus sell at 5p at night 24p day

They make massive in day and tiny loss at night .. at current rates they are still signing people up

When prices come back down in march when the high speed cable from France comes back online (after it burnt out) wholesale will drop back down and prices will fall

Do you actually keep up with what's causing the issues and when will fix?

Sorry but the facts completely disagree with you. You need to understand them if your whole argument is based on poor understanding of facts.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 17, 2021)

London’s congestion charge will be applicable to EVs from 2025, and I would imagine RFL will also be charged on them around that time as well.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			London’s congestion charge will be applicable to EVs from 2025, and I would imagine RFL will also be charged on them around that time as well.
		
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I think that is most likely aswell

Like I said before I see price per mile but tax on fuel won't change u can bet .. so petrol will be taxed twice to try and get people to move 

Even tho petrol you already taxed twice ofc


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The facts agree with me

Octopus sell at 5p at night 24p day

They make massive in day and tiny loss at night .. at current rates they are still signing people up

When prices come back down in march when the high speed cable from France comes back online (after it burnt out) wholesale will drop back down and prices will fall

Do you actually keep up with what's causing the issues and when will fix?

Sorry but the facts completely disagree with you. You need to understand them if your whole argument is based on poor understanding of facts.
		
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https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/28/why-europe-s-energy-prices-are-soaring-and-could-get-much-worse

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ofgem-energy-bills-bbc-b959216.html

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/energy-...ricity-price-cap-rise-ofgem-explained-1211758

I suggest you pull your head out of your arse and start looking at some real world facts. High energy prices are here to stay for the foreseeable future. OK so you have a cheap off peak deal but how long do you think until it goes up? What about people signing up now? You have pissed off a lot of people with your sanctimonious crap and I've had enough personally so I'm putting you on ignore. Feel free to reply if you want but I won't be wasting my time reading it.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

DaveR said:



https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/28/why-europe-s-energy-prices-are-soaring-and-could-get-much-worse

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ofgem-energy-bills-bbc-b959216.html

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/energy-...ricity-price-cap-rise-ofgem-explained-1211758

I suggest you pull your head out of your arse and start looking at some real world facts. High energy prices are here to stay for the foreseeable future. OK so you have a cheap off peak deal but how long do you think until it goes up? What about people signing up now? You have pissed off a lot of people with your sanctimonious crap and I've had enough personally so I'm putting you on ignore. Feel free to reply if you want but I won't be wasting my time reading it.
		
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Excellent finally don't have to put up with your constant rubbish

Electric went up because of the cable from France going down . When it comes back online it returns .

Everything you put is gas. Gas is up for entirely different reason which may take longer to stabilise.


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## bobmac (Nov 17, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Grow up and stop trying to ram home the same points 400 times and maybe other people would also be able to say give their views without being pounced on.
		
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I think the problem is, if different people keep telling us the same things, it gets kind of boring, especially if they are 3 or 4 years out of date. It's often just a case of bringing them up to date with what's going on in a fast moving industry.

Yes we know they are expensive, yes, some people can't charge at home, we need more chargers and for some the range just isn't enough.
But the clever people know all this and have done for years and are working hard to improve things.

It will take time and right now, an EV won't suit everyone, but the change is happening faster than many are aware.

I'm sure people will continue to buy ICE cars for years to come but eventually it will make more financial sense to get an EV.

Think of the first computers, microwaves, flat screen tvs, mobiles, they were all very expensive when they first came out but quickly became affordable for everyone.
You only have to look at the car adverts on TV to see what the future holds and if cost is your main concern, take a look at what is coming from China.



pauljames87 said:



			I am a strong believer that the oil industry has been holding ev back for years with back handers and bribes but ofc that's unfounded and just conjecture rather than proof
		
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You only have to glance across the pond to see that that is happening out in the open.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/20...worth-spurs-questions-energy-policy-position/

The only difference over here is the MPs are more sneaky.


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## SteveJay (Nov 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Absolutely spot on.

BMW 840i OTR £75,995 - Deposit £5000 with monthly payments of £715

BMW i4 M50 OTR £64,995 - Deposit £5000 with monthly payments of £896

The OTR means nothing.

I am on the i4 wait list but looking more and more likely that it will be in to 2023 with delays and order book as it is.
		
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OTR means everything if, like me, you are retired and so want to buy your next car outright. I'd like to go down the Ev route but can't justify paying silly money for a small EV when I could get a top of the range ICE for less. Accept those going down the leasing road may see little difference but I disagree that OTR is irrelevant.


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## SteveJay (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Two people from work have this week picked up or ordered the mini electric

One makes sense. Second car.. 13 mile each way to work .. 150 range .. winter will be less

The other I think she's mental .. lives 40 miles away .. motorway so range will no doubt suffer ..

Ev would work but a diff model but went for looks 🙄

Really can't help some people
		
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Shock horror, some people actually buy a car based on looks 
Thats why for many drivers, an unreachable model like a tesla is what they would want, not a little city car with limited practicality and minimal kerb appeal!!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Shock horror, some people actually buy a car based on looks 
Thats why for many drivers, an unreachable model like a tesla is what they would want, not a little city car with limited practicality and minimal kerb appeal!!
		
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If someone is buying a Tesla based on looks they need to get their eyes tested.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Shock horror, some people actually buy a car based on looks 
Thats why for many drivers, an unreachable model like a tesla is what they would want, not a little city car with limited practicality and minimal kerb appeal!!
		
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I know right. I look forward to hearing the colleague moan if she gets stuck because she didn't think oh the Hyundai with 60kw would be much better for me than the 28kw mini 

Infact the 40kw leaf would be better


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I know right. I look forward to hearing the colleague moan if she gets stuck because she didn't think oh the Hyundai with 60kw would be much better for me than the 28kw mini

Infact the 40kw leaf would be better
		
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It’s her choice. Not yours. This constant sneering attitude at what others choose to do is getting very tiring. It keeps being said but you continue to do it.

Please stop. You’re winning nobody over.

The best way to get people to change behaviour is to let them make their own mistakes. Transitioning to a low carbon future isn’t going to be done instantly. People will take time to adapt and many mistakes will be made. Let. It. Go.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			If someone is buying a Tesla based on looks they need to get their eyes tested.
		
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Model S isn't _too_ bad. Model 3 though


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			It’s her choice. Not yours. This constant sneering attitude at what others choose to do is getting very tiring. It keeps being said but you continue to do it.

Please stop. You’re winning nobody over.

The best way to get people to change behaviour is to let them make their own mistakes. Transitioning to a low carbon future isn’t going to be done instantly. People will take time to adapt and many mistakes will be made. Let. It. Go.
		
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Yes it is indeed her choice. However it sounds like the sales person has really missold the car which is wrong 

It's range on motorways in winter is 80 miles which is her commute .. I play golf with her husband and he was surprised when I told him about the low range. He just went guess she will nick the ugly car back off me then lol


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## PNWokingham (Nov 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think the problem is, if different people keep telling us the same things, it gets kind of boring, especially if they are 3 or 4 years out of date. It's often just a case of bringing them up to date with what's going on in a fast moving industry.

Yes we know they are expensive, yes, some people can't charge at home, we need more chargers and for some the range just isn't enough.
But the clever people know all this and have done for years and are working hard to improve things.

It will take time and right now, an EV won't suit everyone, but the change is happening faster than many are aware.

I'm sure people will continue to buy ICE cars for years to come but eventually it will make more financial sense to get an EV.

Think of the first computers, microwaves, flat screen tvs, mobiles, they were all very expensive when they first came out but quickly became affordable for everyone.
You only have to look at the car adverts on TV to see what the future holds and if cost is your main concern, take a look at what is coming from China.



You only have to glance across the pond to see that that is happening out in the open.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/20...worth-spurs-questions-energy-policy-position/

The only difference over here is the MPs are more sneaky.
		
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I don't disagree with most of what you are saying Bob. The change is here to stay and the pace is picking up. But there a still a very large number of people who will not be able to buy into it for many years. That can be due to costs in many cases and practicality in others. I live in a flat. 12 flats here. We cannot move forward with painting garages, let alone expanding the car park. No way in the world I can ever see everyone agreeing the extra costs of tens of thousands to add chargers outside as well. That will have to wait until the next generation. Many others will be in the same place. And that is the same issue for plug in hybrids. I will be getting another AMG before an electric car!

My issue - and quite a few others - was the attitude of a certain person dissing and patronising people who were also, on the most part, on the same page. We don't need the same person posting these supercilious replies dozens of times a day saying the same thing.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes it is indeed her choice. ...  I play golf with her husband and he was surprised when I told him about the low range. He just went guess she will nick the ugly car back off me then lol
		
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Two things.

1. So what? Her money, her choice. What business is it of yours or ours? The fact that they're on the EV ladder is more important towards the end goals of carbon reduction isn't it?

2. Again your sneering hypocrisy stinks. You're laughing at their need to switch between an EV and ICE based on circumstantial travel requirements. How is this different to your own, often trumpted, needs to run a fugly diesel due to your circumstantial travel requirements.

You need to take a good look at yourself before you criticise others.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Two things.

1. So what? Her money, her choice. What business is it of yours or ours? The fact that they're on the EV ladder is more important towards the end goals of carbon reduction isn't it?

2. Again your sneering hypocrisy stinks. You're laughing at their need to switch between an EV and ICE based on circumstantial travel requirements. How is this different to your own, often trumpted, needs to run a fugly diesel due to your circumstantial travel requirements.

You need to take a good look at yourself before you criticise others.
		
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Look, I'll draw a line here. I clearly have posted what I meant wrong here ... It's great that she's getting electric. Fair play .. it's just she has been sold a car that wont suit her commute 

Hopefully we will get chargers installed soon and that will be the end of it and we can pay to charge whilst at work then it's a mute point 

Sorry I don't mean anymore by it.


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

I've just looked on autotrader, the cheapest Tesla 3 on there at the moment is a whopping £37,990. That puts them way out of range for the average person.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

DaveR said:



			I've just looked on autotrader, the cheapest Tesla 3 on there at the moment is a whopping £37,990. That puts them way out of range for the average person.
		
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I was just looking on AT for a hybrid. But the cheapest McLaren P1 is £1.1 million. That puts hybrids out of reach for me.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think that is most likely aswell

Like I said before I see price per mile but tax on fuel won't change u can bet .. so petrol will be taxed twice to try and get people to move

Even tho petrol you already taxed twice ofc
		
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I think it’s only a matter of time before electricity is taxed in the same way petrol is. Whether that’s time related (so those cheaper night time units are gone) or just a basic flat rate increase on it all, it has to so the Govt can make up for the lost revenue from petrol and derv and the increasing use of electric powered  non 4 wheel transport that’s becoming popular now.

I also see the latest trend is “cable snatching” . I’ve come across 4 people in the last fortnight who have had their charging cable taken or damaged.


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I was just looking on AT for a hybrid. But the cheapest McLaren P1 is £1.1 million. That puts hybrids out of reach for me.
		
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Waste of time unless you carry your clubs in a pencil bag.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think it’s only a matter of time before electricity is taxed in the same way petrol is. Whether that’s time related (so those cheaper night time units are gone) or just a basic flat rate increase on it all, it has to so the Govt can make up for the list revenue from petrol and derv and the increasing use of electric powered  non 4 wheel transport that’s becoming popular now.

I also see the latest trend is “cable snatching” . I’ve come across 4 people in the last fortnight who have had their charging cable taken or damaged.
		
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Damaged I can see but taken? How on earth? Once the car is locked the cable gets a bolt through it like a deadlock on a hand brake 

I don't see electric tax. Night time tariffs will always be about to A get people away from charging peak times and B you have people on storage heaters / battery packs who will fill up and night etc and they will always be available in some form 

Any taxation will have to be on miles driven as any other kind would affect someone who doesn't even own a car


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Damaged I can see but taken? How on earth? Once the car is locked the cable gets a bolt through it like a deadlock on a hand brake

I don't see electric tax. Night time tariffs will always be about to A get people away from charging peak times and B you have people on storage heaters / battery packs who will fill up and night etc and they will always be available in some form

Any taxation will have to be on miles driven as any other kind would affect someone who doesn't even own a car
		
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It doesn’t just have to be an EV car they own, electric bikes are everywhere now along with those scooters, mopeds, skateboards and mono wheel things. 
The Govt brought in a levy for smart meters whether you wanted one  or not. They will find a way to charge extra for all electric because they need the revenue.


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## bobmac (Nov 17, 2021)

I think the fairest way would be a charge per mile, so when you get your car serviced or MOTd, they note the mileage and send you the bill


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## PNWokingham (Nov 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It doesn’t just have to be an EV car they own, electric bikes are everywhere now along with those scooters, mopeds, skateboards and mono wheel things.
The Govt brought in a levy for smart meters whether you wanted one  or not. They will find a way to charge extra for all electric because they need the revenue.
		
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the revenue from petrol and dieel sales is huge and electric cars are starting to make a notable dent. I suspect we will have a wholsale change in the way all gthese taxes and road tax is done. It will all go to pay as go road taxing. Probably with different tarrifs per mile for different roads at different times. probably with an overlay for emissions. I would think all cars will have to have a smart meter


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It doesn’t just have to be an EV car they own, electric bikes are everywhere now along with those scooters, mopeds, skateboards and mono wheel things.
The Govt brought in a levy for smart meters whether you wanted one  or not. They will find a way to charge extra for all electric because they need the revenue.
		
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Really don't see it

Imagine it.. someone can't afford an EV but has just managed to get electric heat pump to get away from gas as we have to etc 

So we all use more electric because we have to 

But then people end up not heating homes because it's costing too much because of the tax

They get taxed on petrol but then taxed on turning the kettle on aswell 

It will be a massive vote loser


Tax by roads used and milage done 

Bill at end of year .  Cars have chips now report milage 

Mine tells vauxhall how many miles I've done 

How long before they go ok then £200 tax for that


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## PNWokingham (Nov 17, 2021)

Electric cars are the future. But for a car nut, they are totally boring. It is the end of a passion for cars. They will be a commodity to me. You can keep your tesla's - i will take one of these please!!

https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/cayma...he-718-cayman-gt4-rs-revealed-with-gt3-engine


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## bobmac (Nov 17, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Electric cars are the future. But for a car nut, they are totally boring. It is the end of a passion for cars. They will be a commodity to me. You can keep your tesla's - i will take one of these please!!

https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/cayma...he-718-cayman-gt4-rs-revealed-with-gt3-engine

Click to expand...

You can drive to work Mon-Fri in your EV and enjoy your passion at the weekends.
When cars first came out, people said that's the end of the horse and yet, we still have horses.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

I can't see how night time tariffs will continue to exist when the energy grid is becoming globally connected and demands normalise across 24hours.

Night time tariffs only existed and are only feasible because there was a surplus of energy within a local grid. As demand goes up and moves across timezones, there isn't going to be a surplus.

I think that may be one of the factors catching out a number of energy suppliers in how they're managing their wholesale purchasing.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 17, 2021)

Theres also a reason night time charging is cheap, its because so little energy is used by the population.  The average household uses about 30 kWh per day.  Taking numbers for this thread, say a leaf needs a half charge per night, thats 20kWh.  Electric companies will NOT charge the vastly reduced rate if the consumption is nearly even day and night.  So if mass adoption happens, prices are going up.  Current EVs are around 6p a mile, compared to around 15p a mile for petrol.  Wont take much for it to even out if adoption increaes and prices for EVs stay elevated....

Like what Jimaroid said..


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Theres also a reason night time charging is cheap, its because so little energy is used by the population.  The average household uses about 30 kWh per day.  Taking numbers for this thread, say a leaf needs a half charge per night, thats 20kWh.  Electric companies will NOT charge the vastly reduced rate if the consumption is nearly even day and night.  So if mass adoption happens, prices are going up.  Current EVs are around 6p a mile, compared to around 15p a mile for petrol.  Wont take much for it to even out if adoption increaes and prices for EVs stay elevated....

Like what Jimaroid said..
		
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Even if you get rid of the night rate the taxation side is minimal change 

The majority of the rise goes to the electric company as the tax is still 5%


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I can't see how night time tariffs will continue to exist when the energy grid is becoming globally connected and demands normalise across 24hours.

Night time tariffs only existed and are only feasible because there was a surplus of energy within a local grid. As demand goes up and moves across timezones, there isn't going to be a surplus.

I think that may be one of the factors catching out a number of energy suppliers in how they're managing their wholesale purchasing.
		
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They have to be careful how they go about it all 

Push too hard and it will just force people to buy the home batteries ( costly ATM but ways around it and will come down#) and fitting them then using solar to fill those batteries and run their house and car grid free 

That's a massive loss of tax 

That's why I see the per mile tax as easier to police and even catches those who do that 

#telsa want £9k fitted for 15kw battery that you fit and charge etc etc , guy who I meant at work once he bought a battery from a written off BMW 30kw for 5k .. he is a sparky and connected it to his consumer unit with an inverter that cost £600

He charges at night for 5p then runs his whole house all day 

If the charges come in on night rate he just goes solar and feeds into the battieres then into is house


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## sweaty sock (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Even if you get rid of the night rate the taxation side is minimal change

The majority of the rise goes to the electric company as the tax is still 5%
		
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Who mentioned tax?  Taking Tide household rates as an example nighttime rates are 5p, day rates are more than double at 12p and peak rates between 4 and 6pm are 25p nearly 5 times the night rate.

If night usage significantly increases then the 5p rate will go to at least 12p, more than doubling the changing cost?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 17, 2021)

This debate took place on the EV thread a while back. Prices for electricity *WILL* go up as demand *WILL* go up. It's simple capitalist economics 101.  

This is going to happen, we have to deal with it just like we have to deal with cost of living increases in all quarters of life. In most cases it will level itself out for many when we go from petrol/diesel to electric. Personally I'd be fine with that. The end-goal isn't for it to be cheaper after all, its for it to be cleaner. So if my cost was 15p per mile and it stayed at 15p per mile rather than 6p then I am no worse off. 

Initial affordability remains a big hurdle for the lowest income households (of which, we are reminded on a regular basis, there are many millions) where a cheap £1k gas guzzler will always be a more attractive option than a £5k "cheap" EV. Even if we can promise that running it will be cheaper. 

The issue of electric cars being less engaging to drive is another matter completely and one that manufacturers will need to think about in order to make their product more enticing. There are people who say modern performance cars are less engaging because of things like power steering making it "too easy" in tight corners. This is just the evolution of the car.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Who mentioned tax?  Taking Tide household rates as an example nighttime rates are 5p, day rates are more than double at 12p and peak rates between 4 and 6pm are 25p nearly 5 times the night rate.

If night usage significantly increases then the 5p rate will go to at least 12p, more than doubling the changing cost?
		
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Sorry tax has been talked about so much today I assumed it was same 

It will come one day no doubt

Don't see much of a change before the ban tbh 

Octupus for example 

I've got 3 offers 

40p during day 28 night 
28 day 15 night (loyalty rate)
Or go tarif 
24 day 5 night 

This is with the massive rises they still give go to electric cars at 5p even in these times 

I'm locked in until Feb luckily so 14 and 5 ATM


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			written off BMW 30kw for 5k .. he is a sparky and connected it to his consumer unit with an inverter that cost £600

He charges at night for 5p then runs his whole house all day

If the charges come in on night rate he just goes solar and feeds into the battieres then into is house
		
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How long will it take him to recoup capital outlaid on Solar and Batteries?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			This debate took place on the EV thread a while back. Prices for electricity *WILL* go up as demand *WILL* go up. It's simple capitalist economics 101. 

This is going to happen, we have to deal with it just like we have to deal with cost of living increases in all quarters of life. In most cases it will level itself out for many when we go from petrol/diesel to electric. Personally I'd be fine with that. The end-goal isn't for it to be cheaper after all, its for it to be cleaner. So if my cost was 15p per mile and it stayed at 15p per mile rather than 6p then I am no worse off.

Initial affordability remains a big hurdle for the lowest income households (of which, we are reminded on a regular basis, there are many millions) where a cheap £1k gas guzzler will always be a more attractive option than a £5k "cheap" EV. Even if we can promise that running it will be cheaper.

The issue of electric cars being less engaging to drive is another matter completely and one that manufacturers will need to think about in order to make their product more enticing. There are people who say modern performance cars are less engaging because of things like power steering making it "too easy" in tight corners. This is just the evolution of the car.
		
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Spot on

If ev was same as a ice now price wise people wouldn't care if it cost the same to run 

Guy at work has a id4 cost him 45k

He hasn't even got a car tariff he just pays as if it was petrol he is more caring about its green 

Everyone says autos are boring (well not everyone but a lot of people) electric will be the death of manual as their all auto 

It's a fun drive tho the thing feels like a go kart 

But hand on heart if it wasn't an EV I wouldn't have that car so all the comparison meh I'd have something nicer if it was petrol


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			How long will it take him to recoup capital outlaid on Solar and Batteries?
		
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Trying to remember what he told me .. I think he said 4 years off top of My head 

6k total outlay so far 

Only pays 5p per kw .. except to charge his car as he does in day as he night worker 

He told me he averaged 9p per kw accross a month and I think he said 4 years and he is even


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

For anyone using the potential cost increase of electricity as an excuse for not going EV.  
How much do you think dinosaur juice is going to cost in the future?


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## sweaty sock (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			For anyone using the potential cost increase of electricity as an excuse for not going EV. 
How much do you think dinosaur juice is going to cost in the future?
		
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Wont's price will drop year on year as less and less demand drives the market?  

Yes, I know, I know....

Apologies


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			For anyone using the potential cost increase of electricity as an excuse for not going EV. 
How much do you think dinosaur juice is going to cost in the future?
		
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It doesn't matter how cheap the electricity is when people can't or won't afford to buy the EV in the first place.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Wont's price will drop year on year as less and less demand drives the market?

Yes, I know, I know....

Apologies
		
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Last year was a rare occasion where low demand during lockdown saw pump prices fall. Tesco here was down at 99.9p for a few weeks. Then as soon as demand kicked up it was 103.9 and rose rapidly.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			It doesn't matter how cheap the electricity is when people can't or won't afford to buy the EV in the first place.
		
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The cheapest Leaf in AT is just over £5k. That’s affordable for a lot of people. Of course that is still a lot of money for some. But over time EVs will become cheaper as have ICEVs


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Really don't see it

Imagine it.. someone can't afford an EV but has just managed to get electric heat pump to get away from gas as we have to etc

So we all use more electric because we have to

But then people end up not heating homes because it's costing too much because of the tax

They get taxed on petrol but then taxed on turning the kettle on aswell

It will be a massive vote loser


Tax by roads used and milage done

Bill at end of year .  Cars have chips now report milage

Mine tells vauxhall how many miles I've done

How long before they go ok then £200 tax for that
		
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Remember when they said everyone had to have water meters, and it would reduce our bills? Well guess what, we use less water than without a meter and our bills are way more.
Once they have forced the majority down the electric only route for  almost everything, they will increase prices for any amount of reasons and anyone who thinks they won’t has sadly got a screw loose.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The cheapest Leaf in AT is just over £5k. That’s affordable for a lot of people. Of course that is still a lot of money for some. But over time EVs will become cheaper as have ICEVs
		
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Guy who plays kryton did a piece on it 

The price of lithium has dropped dramatically

However prices remain same 

Say 10k more for the Corsa 

Manufacturers are keeping prices high ATM in his view but in time they will drop


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Remember when they said everyone had to have water meters, and it would reduce our bills? Well guess what, we use less water than without a meter and our bills are way more.
Once they have forced the majority down the electric only route for  almost everything, they will increase prices for any amount of reasons and anyone who thinks they won’t has sadly got a screw loose.
		
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My parents aren't they pay like £200 a month I have one and pay £50..


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The cheapest Leaf in AT is just over £5k. That’s affordable for a lot of people. Of course that is still a lot of money for some. But over time EVs will become cheaper as have ICEVs
		
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Well I'd say £5,750 is nearer £6k than £5k, so not just over £5k.  

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...ar-to=2021&make=Nissan&postcode=br51az&page=1

Whilst a Leaf may be affordable, is it practical?  I can't see me getting anything close to what I've currently got in terms of space & ability without spending considerably more or buying an older model with higher mileage & the risk of more issues and a Leaf won't cut it for a lot of people, me included.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well I'd say £5,750 is nearer £6k than £5k, so not just over £5k. 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202110108342614?model=Leaf&sort=price-asc&include-delivery-option=on&advertising-location=at_cars&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&radius=1500&year-to=2021&make=Nissan&postcode=br51az&page=1

Whilst a Leaf may be affordable, is it practical?  I can't see me getting anything close to what I've currently got in terms of space & ability without spending considerably more or buying an older model with higher mileage & the risk of more issues and a Leaf won't cut it for a lot of people, me included.
		
Click to expand...

But are YOU looking at 5k cars or more?


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Trying to remember what he told me .. I think he said 4 years off top of My head

6k total outlay so far
		
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That seems too cheap for a solar and battery installation. You said he'd spent £5K on a battery, £600 on an inverter. What did the solar panels cost?

Calculations I did for my home came out at 15 years to recoup for solar and battery.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			That seems too cheap for a solar and battery installation. You said he'd spent £5K on a battery, £600 on an inverter. What did the solar panels cost?

Calculations I did for my home came out at 15 years to recoup for solar and battery.
		
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He doesn't have solar yet he will install if needed 

5k was his costs plus the inverter because he did himself and bought the batteries from an old car


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			He doesn't have solar yet he will install if needed
		
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But you wrote




			If the charges come in on night rate he just goes solar
		
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You’re making it very hard to come across as credible on this to be honest.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			But you wrote



You’re making it very hard to come across as credible on this to be honest.
		
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That's what I mean he will just go solar as in pay to have them installed 

If I wanted same set up would cost me 15k or more via telsa

I'm not a sparky like this guy who wired into his own house 

Obviously he would take a lot longer to break even if he went solar but right now he said 4 years for the sst up


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Another colleague, he started the ev trend, (bought a leaf the week before I ordered my Corsa) 

Now he has an 18 plate leaf the new model 40kw battery

It's a lovely car, massive inside, much bigger than I thought (old leaf was tiny)

Anyways 2 years old he paid 20k he paid for it .. brand new would have been 30k plus

Now second hand cars of that age back then what you looking at spending .. focus starts 22k I know prices on second hand are stupid now but safe to assume 17k Ish? So he paid 3k more for a similar size car and has made a lot of savings for fuel 

It will be an interesting watch 

I'm sure someone will come in soon to tell me it would be 15,750 and my 17 was well off the mark and I'm cherry picking but just fag packet figures


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Remember when they said everyone had to have water meters, and it would reduce our bills? Well guess what, we use less water than without a meter and our bills are way more.
Once they have forced the majority down the electric only route for  almost everything, they will increase prices for any amount of reasons and anyone who thinks they won’t has sadly got a screw loose.
		
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One thing at the end there that I missed ..

So take gas .. it runs I dunno how many boilers (obviously some people are off grid etc), gas cookers aswell etc 

Gas is still pretty (well was until the recent crisis) cheap no?

Yes it's risen recently but it's been a series of events in Europe have led to this etc .. I mean I pay 2.5p pkw and end of month I go onto the price cap of 4p pkw


Maybe it's because it's compared to electric seems cheaper but so many people have to use it but it's still cheap cheap and the gov haven't raised it etc


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Obviously he would take a lot longer to break even if he went solar but right now he said 4 years for the sst up
		
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He's outlaid £6K. His plan is if (when) prices go up he'll need to outlay another £8K (my estimate for a 6kW PV installation) to recoup.

A quick calculation of a 6kW solar system for a lifetime of 25 years reveals a net benefit of £3,700. 

He's spent £14,000 and "saved" £3,700

Oh dear!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well I'd say £5,750 is nearer £6k than £5k, so not just over £5k.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202110108342614?model=Leaf&sort=price-asc&include-delivery-option=on&advertising-location=at_cars&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&radius=1500&year-to=2021&make=Nissan&postcode=br51az&page=1

Whilst a Leaf may be affordable, is it practical?  I can't see me getting anything close to what I've currently got in terms of space & ability without spending considerably more or buying an older model with higher mileage & the risk of more issues and a Leaf won't cut it for a lot of people, me included.
		
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Sorry. The way you were going on about the price of a Corsa earlier made me think you were interested in this class of car.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			He's outlaid £6K. His plan is if (when) prices go up he'll need to outlay another £8K (my estimate for a 6kW PV installation) to recoup.

A quick calculation of a 6kW solar system for a lifetime of 25 years reveals a net benefit of £3,700.

He's spent £14,000 and "saved" £3,700

Oh dear!
		
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Only if they go extreme up tho , for a while they will remain low to mid 

Also what's to stop him buying it himself and doing so? In all seriousness.. I wouldn't I'd paid someone but anyone good with electrics could do that work themsleves

That and won't prices drop over time no?

Right now he charges his 30kw battery at 5p 

That's £1.50 a night 

If he uses it all during the day so that assumes 30 usage and the current day rate is 14p for his tariff that's a £2.70 a day saving (if he was to use all 30 but he does charge the car so that is possible) that's a £985 a year current saving 

When prices for him go to 24p during day that's a £2000 a year saving 

So ATM sorry 6 years to break even 

But when prices rise it will be sooner 


That's a heck of a saving no?

However it's only if you do yourself 

If I go do same to telsa that will take me 15 years to break even at the £1000 a year


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## bobmac (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			He's outlaid £6K. His plan is if (when) prices go up he'll need to outlay another £8K (my estimate for a* 6kW PV installation*) to recoup.
		
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How many solar panels is that?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many solar panels is that?
		
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Would it not depend on the type and yield of the panel.

I had a quote last week for an idea I had to make my garage "off grid" and utilise it's large flat roof area and for a 6Kw system is was 21 panels at c.285W each panel. Total cost was around £3000 for the panels and then another £2000 for install. But they had panels all the way from 150W up to 400W.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Would it not depend on the type and yield of the panel.

I had a quote last week for an idea I had to make my garage "off grid" and utilise it's large flat roof area and for a 6Kw system is was 21 panels at c.285W each panel. Total cost was around £3000 for the panels and then another £2000 for install. But they had panels all the way from 150W up to 400W.
		
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Yup, I was looking at 340W panels and I was looking at around 20 panels panels for my pitched roof.


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## bobmac (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Yup, I was looking at 340W panels and I was looking at around 20 panels panels for my pitched roof.
		
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Must be a big house


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## GreiginFife (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Yup, I was looking at 340W panels and I was looking at around 20 panels panels for my pitched roof.
		
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340W must be quite big. Is that the Poly-cristalline type? The 285W ones I was looking at were about 1.5m tall each. I should point out that the £2k installation cost was an option to have the little triangular frames fitted to "pitch" the panels on an angle. The other option was £1200 and that was just batons and panels fixed flat. 

I just need to work out if all the machinery would work off of the system (table saw is 3Kw and the mitre saw 2.2Kw but all on relatively low runtimes). Guy that came out wasn't sure as he doesn't get many mad-men asking to PV their garages


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## SteveJay (Nov 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Model S isn't _too_ bad. Model 3 though 

Click to expand...

Still much better than a bloody Leaf though


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			340W must be quite big. Is that the Poly-cristalline type?
		
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I was looking at Monocrystalline. We have a large pitch roof and a flat garage roof to install on. It was a couple of years ago now but I gave up as I couldn't see how it was worth it and wasn't helped by the fact we don't got enough sunlight due to the position of the house on the side of a hill, trees etc.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Sorry. The way you were going on about the price of a Corsa earlier made me think you were interested in this class of car.
		
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Only quoted the Corsa earlier because someone else had raised it as an example of the price difference so I looked up the finance on it. Choice would be a mid to large estate for what I need of a car; Octavia, Leon ST, that sort of thing. As far as I’m aware there’s not that many about and they haven’t dropped sufficiently to make a change viable on that size of vehicle, but happy to shown otherwise if you are aware of any. 👍


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## williamalex1 (Nov 17, 2021)

Looks like the Scottish government are not going to allow the new north sea Campbell oil field to produce the estimated 9 million barrels of oil . 
But in the meantime we'll still have to import oil from abroad.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 17, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Looks like the Scottish government are not going to allow the new north sea Campbell oil field to produce the estimated 9 million barrels of oil .
But in the meantime we'll still have to import oil from abroad. 

Click to expand...

That's what happens when you are in bed with the Greens I'm afraid.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 17, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			That's what happens when you are in bed with the Greens I'm afraid.
		
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Nothing Green about me, more of a blue planet man


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think it’s only a matter of time before electricity is taxed in the same way petrol is. Whether that’s time related (so those cheaper night time units are gone) or just a basic flat rate increase on it all, it has to so the Govt can make up for the lost revenue from petrol and derv and the increasing use of electric powered  non 4 wheel transport that’s becoming popular now.

I also see the latest trend is “cable snatching” . I’ve come across 4 people in the last fortnight who have had their charging cable taken or damaged.
		
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Re last para. Wondered when ( not if) that would happen. That is why lamppost adaption for street charging was never a good idea. 
The morons would soon amuse themselves messing up such charging scenarios. Obvious.
When the battery (s) can be taken indoors to charge, then EVs will take off.
Being in the not immediate future,car prices will have come down too.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Re last para. Wondered when ( not if) that would happen. That is why lamppost adaption for street charging was never a good idea.
The morons would soon amuse themselves messing up such charging scenarios. Obvious.
When the battery (s) can be taken indoors to charge, then EVs will take off.
Being in the not immediate future,car prices will have come down too.
		
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 Surely someone will invent pop up or overhead  or WIFI chargers


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Surely someone will invent pop up or overhead  or WIFI chargers 

Click to expand...

Toyota will be entering the ev market soon in UK ..

Their car has an optional extra of solar panels built into the roof ...

No good if you park underground but it's a step in the right direction

All that wasted energy hitting the roof over the day


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think the fairest way would be a charge per mile, so when you get your car serviced or MOTd, they note the mileage and send you the bill
		
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They can’t even get the tech right for Smart Motorways.
So just can’t see this pay per mile working unless it’s toll booths like in the USA.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			They can’t even get the tech right for Smart Motorways.
So just can’t see this pay per mile working unless it’s toll booths like in the USA.
		
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GPS and Biometrics. Easy peasy.

It could already be done with mobile phones.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			GPS and Biometrics. Easy peasy.

It could already be done with mobile phones.
		
Click to expand...

My car has a sim

U can turn heating on remotely

Now that sim connects it to the servers , which tell vauxhall it's milage etc 

Would be so simple to share this data with the gov

Now people have said smart metres by charge you use for car etc .. nah sod that the capability is there already they just need to turn it on


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My car has a sim

U can turn heating on remotely

Now that sim connects it to the servers , which tell vauxhall it's milage etc

*Would be so simple to share this data with the gov*

Now people have said smart metres by charge you use for car etc .. nah sod that the capability is there already they just need to turn it on
		
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There's (quite rightly imo) a whole world of privacy/accuracy issues that would have to be resolved first!


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## cliveb (Nov 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			They can’t even get the tech right for Smart Motorways.
So just can’t see this pay per mile working unless it’s toll booths like in the USA.
		
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About 20 years ago that I was involved in the early IT analysis phase of a road usage charging scheme that the government wanted to bring in for HGVs. A GPS device in the cab would record where and when the lorry was, and calculate a charge based on distance, location and time of day. The motivation at the time was that lots of foreign lorrys were on our roads without paying a penny in road fund licence (and also often not even filling up with diesel in this country thus not paying any tax at all for using our roads). In the end it was shelved for political reasons. This system was going to be technically quite challenging but basically feasible even back then, so deploying a similar system to all vehicles on the road should be pretty straightforward these days, 20 years on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My car has a sim

U can turn heating on remotely

Now that sim connects it to the servers , which tell vauxhall it's milage etc

Would be so simple to share this data with the gov

Now people have said smart metres by charge you use for car etc .. nah sod that the capability is there already they just need to turn it on
		
Click to expand...

Lots of issues in regards data sharing - certainly data of where you have been etc


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

cliveb said:



			About 20 years ago that I was involved in the early IT analysis phase of a road usage charging scheme that the government wanted to bring in for HGVs. A GPS device in the cab would record where and when the lorry was, and calculate a charge based on distance, location and time of day. The motivation at the time was that lots of foreign lorrys were on our roads without paying a penny in road fund licence (and also often not even filling up with diesel in this country thus not paying any tax at all for using our roads). In the end it was shelved for political reasons. This system was going to be technically quite challenging but basically feasible even back then, so deploying a similar system to all vehicles on the road should be pretty straightforward these days, 20 years on.
		
Click to expand...

That's a real interesting read and as you say now days almost every car has the tech almost there doesn't it? Or easier to retrofit



Foxholer said:



			There's (quite rightly imo) a whole world of privacy/accuracy issues that would have to be resolved first!
		
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Works with insurance black boxes and they grass you up


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lots of issues in regards data sharing - certainly data of where you have been etc
		
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Insurance black boxes


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Insurance black boxes
		
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Which is a personal choice of the person sending the data


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which is a personal choice of the person sending the data
		
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Is it? My brother in law after his claim for theft of his car could Only get a policy if he had one


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			There's (quite rightly imo) a whole world of privacy/accuracy issues that would have to be resolved first!
		
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Massive big brother situation. Public and politicians would need a huge amount of convincing to get that through. I'd join the protest march against it.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lots of issues in regards data sharing - certainly data of where you have been etc
		
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They wouldn't need to share data of where the vehicle has been. Simply share the total number of miles that the vehicle has done in the year. Could even become a requirement of the MOT for the garage to record and submit the vehicle mileage if it wasn't possible to do it automatically. Then stick tolls on all motorways and dual carriageways as this will also mean that foreign vehicles using the roads will have to pay and Robert's your mother's brother.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Massive big brother situation. Public and politicians would need a huge amount of convincing to get that through. I'd join the protest march against it.
		
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Without going down that path of chat . We are out the EU now . Nothing to stop them doing whatever the hell they want as the past year has proven (not covid)..


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			They wouldn't need to share data of where the vehicle has been. Simply share the total number of miles that the vehicle has done in the year. Could even become a requirement of the MOT for the garage to record and submit the vehicle mileage if it wasn't possible to do it automatically. Then stick tolls on all motorways and dual carriageways as this will also mean that foreign vehicles using the roads will have to pay and Robert's your mother's brother.
		
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Mots record the milage anyways don't they? I'm sure they do if I look up mine I see all the miles 

Anyways quick change of law.. yearly MOT even for new cars 

Problem solved


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## bobmac (Nov 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			They can’t even get the tech right for Smart Motorways.
So just can’t see this pay per mile working unless it’s toll booths like in the USA.
		
Click to expand...

You put your car in for a service/mot, the mechanic works out your bill, you pay and you drive away. If you don't pay, you don't drive away


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You put your car in for a service/mot, the mechanic works out your bill, you pay and you drive away. If you don't pay, you don't drive away
		
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Will prob go on your tax return like child benefit payback lol you can pay it all now or out of your monthly pay over the year


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## cliveb (Nov 17, 2021)

This thread seems to have morphed in to one about the pros and cons of EVs.

Getting back to the original discussion of reducing carbon emissions generally, I came across an interesting piece about a potentially game changing development for photovoltaics:




That YouTube channel has quite a lot of interesting stuff. I don't know what if any agenda the guy has, but it seems generally fairly well presented.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Without going down that path of chat . We are out the EU now . Nothing to stop them doing whatever the hell they want as the past year has proven (not covid)..
		
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Nothing to do with the EU, everything to do with civil liberties, privacy etc if people are constantly being tracked. No issue if people are charged per mile but how that is done needs careful thought.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Nothing to do with the EU, everything to do with civil liberties, privacy etc if people are constantly being tracked. No issue if people are charged per mile but how that is done needs careful thought.
		
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"For now, the UK is still committed to adhering to its current commitments to Human Rights treaties and conventions internationally, including to the ECHR. The trade agreement, however, lacks specificity on this commitment, and there is no guarantee this will continue in the future"

So basically anything can change and much easier now 

However I think it will be done pretty easy without the need for privacy


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

The tech exists. It’s called Uber.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lots of issues in regards data sharing - certainly data of where you have been etc
		
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Yes could blow a good alibi.


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			...
However I think it will be done pretty easy *without the need for privacy*

Click to expand...

There's an overwhelming 'need for privacy' that'll be a huge 'block' to the sort of automated access to vehicle info you were suggesting!
And FWIW, it has very little to do with EU considerations - though 'foreign vehicles' would certainly need to be considered!


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			...Works with insurance black boxes and they grass you up
		
Click to expand...

Vastly different situation!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			There's an overwhelming 'need for privacy' that'll be a huge 'block' to the sort of automated access to vehicle info you were suggesting!
And FWIW, it has very little to do with EU considerations - though 'foreign vehicles' would certainly need to be considered!
		
Click to expand...

Type any number plate you see out your window into mot checker

Then click mot history


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You put your car in for a service/mot, the mechanic works out your bill, you pay and you drive away. If you don't pay, you don't drive away
		
Click to expand...

That’s open for massive fiddling .
It does go on.


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Type any number plate you see out your window into mot checker

Then click mot history
		
Click to expand...

You don't seem to have any idea about the sort of 'privacy issues' (that could be) involved with the 'direct' access to a vehicles!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			You don't seem to have any idea about the sort of 'privacy issues' (that could be) involved with the 'direct' access to a vehicles!
		
Click to expand...

My car already has it.. vauxhall have the data however what I've said since mot 

Type your plate into checker 

You get all milage history..

Change mot to yearly .. simple law change no privacy issues 

There you have a milage tracker


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 17, 2021)

It will be a Hackers Paradise and not the golf one.


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My car already has it.. vauxhall have the data however what I've said since mot

Type your plate into checker

You get all milage history..

Change mot to yearly .. simple law change no privacy issues

There you have a milage tracker
		
Click to expand...

See post 464!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			See post 464!
		
Click to expand...

That's when smarter people than you or I get involved 

Anpr cameras are everywhere


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			See post 464!
		
Click to expand...

Care to enlighten us?


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Care to enlighten us?
		
Click to expand...

Read George Orwell's 1984!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Read George Orwell's 1984!
		
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Riiiiight, you’ve got nothing factual to add then?


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

Taxation based on mileage won’t work because distance isn’t a fair or even correct way to tax energy consumption.  

Stationary vehicles consume energy too. 

We already pay VAT on energy consumption. It will scale accordingly.


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Riiiiight, you’ve got nothing factual to add then?
		
Click to expand...

Surely you can work out for yourself the sort of info that _could_ be obtained!
Tracking, location history etc.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Surely you can work out for yourself the sort of info that _could_ be obtained!
Tracking, location history etc.
		
Click to expand...

Everything everyone with a smart phone already willingly hands over 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Taxation based on mileage won’t work because distance isn’t a fair or even correct way to tax energy consumption. 

Stationary vehicles consume energy too.

We already pay VAT on energy consumption. It will scale accordingly.
		
Click to expand...

It isn't really a tax on energy consumption more on distance traveled .. you used the roads more you pay more


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Everything everyone with a smart phone already willingly hands over 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

But that is by the user's choice! Users can opt out/disguise/mislead if they wish. Positional location is 'vague' at best - being taken from 'nearest tower'.
And FWIW, this has nothing to do with 'Reducing Carbon Emissions', so kindly get back on-topic!


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## Jimaroid (Nov 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It isn't really a tax on energy consumption more on distance traveled .. you used the roads more you pay more
		
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Stop thinking about cars, distance is not a measure of energy. All carbon emissions are directly related to energy consumption. Taxation of the energy supply is consistent, fair and easily implemented.  

A banded system would scale across every type of consumer even those who can feed in from solar, wind and suchlike.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Stop thinking about cars, distance is not a measure of energy. All carbon emissions are directly related to energy consumption. Taxation of the energy supply is consistent, fair and easily implemented. 

A banded system would scale across every type of consumer even those who can feed in from solar, wind and suchlike.
		
Click to expand...

But taxation on the roads is what the subject was on this where the gov is gonna want to make back what it's missing in fuel duty .. so it won't want people using solar and the roads for free etc


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			fuel duty
		
Click to expand...

Fuel duty is already an energy tax.

What don’t you understand? There is no conceptual difference between the taxation of liquid fuel and electric fuel.


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## cliveb (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Taxation based on mileage won’t work because distance isn’t a fair or even correct way to tax energy consumption. 

Stationary vehicles consume energy too.

We already pay VAT on energy consumption. It will scale accordingly.
		
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I'm not sure if I understand your stance on this.
When (not if) the government loses the cash cow of duty on petroleum fuel used for road transport, it will need to find a replacement.
Are you suggesting that the replacement should be a tax on all electricity and gas that is used, even for heat and light in domestic homes? That seems to be what you're saying, although I could easily have misunderstood.
If it is what you're suggesting, then I think it's politically impossible, even if in principle it sort of makes sense.


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## Beezerk (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I was looking at Monocrystalline. We have a large pitch roof and a flat garage roof to install on. It was a couple of years ago now but I gave up as I couldn't see how it was worth it and wasn't helped by the fact we don't got enough sunlight due to the position of the house on the side of a hill, trees etc.
		
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Sorry, minor thread hijack.
If you had a south facing pitch roof on your house which gets sun for most of the day, would you consider solar panels as a must?


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

cliveb said:



			If it is what you're suggesting, then I think it's politically impossible, even if in principle it sort of makes sense.
		
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It is but how is it politically impossible? Not that we're allowed to discuss that but. Consumers and businesses already pay duties across the range of liquid fuels, gas and electricity. It's already a scalable taxation with a mechanism of incentivising the uptake of cleaner fuels without a loss to the treasury.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Fuel duty is already an energy tax.

What don’t you understand? There is no conceptual difference between the taxation of liquid fuel and electric fuel.
		
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As Clive posted. He was asked to look into it what 20 years ago? So I'm sure it's coming... They will have forward plans for these situations

You could see tax rise from 5 to 10% maybe on energy but I doubt u will see the levels that are laid on fuel duty for cars ..

But anyways agree to disagree because we clearly won't agree on this ever.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Sorry, minor thread hijack.
If you had a south facing pitch roof on your house which gets sun for most of the day, would you consider solar panels as a must?
		
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For this house I came to the conclusion of no, I couldn't look past the poor return on investment. I was looking at going fully electric but the house isn't insulated well enough to go that route and would require a significant rebuild. Longer term I've been considering building our own eco house anyway so the money is better invested until that becomes viable.


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2021)

We have a couple of solar panels and a large hot water tank. No problem heating the water most of the year, and it’s backed up with an immersion heater for the odd few grey days. We’re saving a decent amount on gas bills.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 18, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We have a couple of solar panels and a large hot water tank. No problem heating the water most of the year, and it’s backed up with an immersion heater for the odd few grey days. We’re saving a decent amount on gas bills.
		
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We’d need some reverse strategy here though Brian, one for the odd few sunny days 😂


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## cliveb (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			It is but how is it politically impossible? Not that we're allowed to discuss that but. Consumers and businesses already pay duties across the range of liquid fuels, gas and electricity. It's already a scalable taxation with a mechanism of incentivising the uptake of cleaner fuels without a loss to the treasury.
		
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The revenue from petrol and diesel duty is vast. Any government attempting to replace it by taxing domestic heating and lighting will be accused of gouging people who don't drive.

I can understand why in principle it's fair - fuel duty is just another revenue stream and one could argue that placing the burden exclusively on road users is itself unfair. But theoretical principles don't count for much in politics. The community charge (aka poll tax) was correct in principle but it was politically impossible to implement.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 18, 2021)

Isn't one of the challenges that drivers would effectively be being taxed twice though? Once when they pay for the charging and then again for driving a mile (yes I know we pay for fuel and VED but I really can't see VED becoming a thing of the past and I see the flat rate (with the £40k tier) staying in place for all vehicles) - so possibly triple taxed. 

Rural people would also be disproportionally affected, even basic amenities can be miles away. Personally, I'm not sure there is a simple, fair solution other than electric increases in price. 

It could be a condition of having a home charger installed is that you need to be on a "car charging" tariff (similar to PJ87 talks about) which charges you more based on that usage. You will undoubtedly have to pay for charging away from home so that takes care of those without home charging or those that top-up. Lamp-post charging could be "app controlled" and charged per usage. 

There needs to be a way that EV charging is separated from "normal" usage so that it doesn't hit the non-user population. Although if we all go leccy then there's not going to be many non-users...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Isn't one of the challenges that drivers would effectively be being taxed twice though? Once when they pay for the charging and then again for driving a mile (yes I know we pay for fuel and VED but I really can't see VED becoming a thing of the past and I see the flat rate (with the £40k tier) staying in place for all vehicles) - so possibly triple taxed.

Rural people would also be disproportionally affected, even basic amenities can be miles away. Personally, I'm not sure there is a simple, fair solution other than electric increases in price.

It could be a condition of having a home charger installed is that you need to be on a "car charging" tariff (similar to PJ87 talks about) which charges you more based on that usage. You will undoubtedly have to pay for charging away from home so that takes care of those without home charging or those that top-up. Lamp-post charging could be "app controlled" and charged per usage.

There needs to be a way that EV charging is separated from "normal" usage so that it doesn't hit the non-user population. Although if we all go leccy then there's not going to be many non-users...
		
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My podpoint tells me exactly how much electric goes from it to the car, so whilst the smart metre says I use X amount a day (more when I'm doing the car ofc) podpoint will say today you added for example 22.5 kw

I don't see why the charging systems wont just feed that to the tax office and that will be our tax bill .. another easy solution I guess 

I've added 74kw this month for example for the car .. used a lot more than that for the house 

No doubt they could feed it even just to the energy provider and you get 5% on your house usage and more on your car 

It would however also tax those who store on a battery via solar and charge the car ...... But that would then become a road tax? As they would use the road aswell 

Who knows


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## GreiginFife (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My podpoint tells me exactly how much electric goes from it to the car, so whilst the smart metre says I use X amount a day (more when I'm doing the car ofc) podpoint will say today you added for example 22.5 kw

I don't see why the charging systems wont just feed that to the tax office and that will be our tax bill .. another easy solution I guess

I've added 74kw this month for example for the car .. used a lot more than that for the house

No doubt they could feed it even just to the energy provider and you get 5% on your house usage and more on your car

It would however also tax those who store on a battery via solar and charge the car ...... But that would then become a road tax? As they would use the road aswell

Who knows
		
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I think the added complexity there is that utility companies charge by what goes through the meter, your pod point will be connected after the meter so it could be that rather than the tax office that gets the specific info it's the leccy company. The govt would then just need to wrangle fuel duty with the leccy company then they would get their cut like they do with petrol products. You still then have the challenge of not charging at home but not charging at a "provider station" like lamp-post charging. I think some sort of app control (like how Ringo works for example) where a post has a specific code, you set your time and it charges for the time you select and pay for?

The only thing I know here is I've clearly thought more about this than I have the work I'm actually supposed to be doing!


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

cliveb said:



			The revenue from petrol and diesel duty is vast. Any government attempting to replace it by taxing domestic heating and lighting will be accused of gouging people who don't drive.

I can understand why in principle it's fair - fuel duty is just another revenue stream and one could argue that placing the burden exclusively on road users is itself unfair. But theoretical principles don't count for much in politics. The community charge (aka poll tax) was correct in principle but it was politically impossible to implement.
		
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I also understand and agree with that which is why I'd expect a banding will also be required as part of the transition and scaling of how electrical energy is taxed in entirety. The problem of energy consumption and carbon reduction is not just about cars, fuel duty revenues will decline and will need to be replaced by a range of electrical energy duties based on end use. I see no functional difference between taxing a pump and taxing a socket.

I do agree that an interim solution limited to EVs is feasible but I think it's a distraction to a dead end. If we're going implement a tax on EVs, rather than distance it should be based on lifetime charge, i.e., how many kW have been consumed. Distance isn't energy.

edit: fixed my mangled penultimate sentence


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## cliveb (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I see no functional difference between taxing a pump and taxing a socket.
		
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The difference is fundamentally one of tradition. Everyone has grown up understanding that car drivers get gouged so to continue to do so wouldn't be a big shock. But to start taxing general electricity bills to the extent required would be seen as an attack on something that everyone depends on. It's not like you can choose not to use electricity at home.

Taxing road use has another benefit: that of discouraging unnecessary travel. People move around too much, which isn't good for the planet. (Back in the "Good Old Days" people tended to live and work in the same town, and went to work by walking or cycling. The very act of improving the transport infrastucture has created a society that spends a great deal of its time moving around, consuming lots of energy as it does so. Of course it's not possible to go back to how things used to be, but we should try to avoid making it worse)


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 18, 2021)

cliveb said:



			The difference is fundamentally one of tradition. Everyone has grown up understanding that car drivers get gouged so to continue to do so wouldn't be a big shock. But to start taxing general electricity bills to the extent required would be seen as an attack on something that everyone depends on. It's not like you can choose not to use electricity at home.
		
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It not just electric cars that use the road, there’s mopeds, scooters, bikes, and  a few other items. Since some of these don’t even have a speedo, let alone other connected technology how else are they to pay their share for using the roads if the Govt don’t bring in extra charging for the leccy we take out the wall socket?
They brought in a levy to cover the costs of everyone getting a “free” smart meter, very few complained and most just accepted it.
If we accept our World is changing and our  transport systems are changing then so must how we pay for it.


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			...There needs to be a way that EV charging is separated from "normal" usage so that it doesn't hit the non-user population. Although if we all go leccy then there's not going to be many non-users...
		
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The obvious place to place a 'meter' to determine how much 'leccy has been passed from whatever source to EV batteries is to place the meter on/in the vehicle. 'Traditional' fill-up sites (tax-gatherers) could use tokens that 'credit' usage - or maybe secure bypass devices/mechanisms - and it would also solve the issue of 'home power production' (eg Solar) avoiding the tax.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I also understand and agree with that which is why I'd expect a banding will also be required as part of the transition and scaling of how electrical energy is taxed in entirety. The problem of energy consumption and carbon reduction is not just about cars, fuel duty revenues will decline and will need to be replaced by a range of electrical energy duties based on end use. I see no functional difference between taxing a pump and taxing a socket.

I do agree that an interim solution limited to EVs is feasible but I think it's a distraction to a dead end. If we're going implement a tax on EVs, rather than distance it should be based on lifetime charge, i.e., how many kW have been consumed. Distance isn't energy.

edit: fixed my mangled penultimate sentence
		
Click to expand...

Let's say you don't have a car at all , but have a heat pump and an induction hob

(I believe you are from Scotland? So heating on more, for this example let's say it is correct)

So I use 2700kw electric for my car (12,000 miles) a year

In this situation your not driving your using a bus, taxi etc

Do you think it's fair that we are taxed the same on energy? When you could use over 3000 to feed and heat yourself

Whilst im using less gas because I'm down south so little warmer etc

Is that fair?


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Let's say ...

Do you think it's fair that we are taxed the same on energy? When you could use over 3000 to feed and heat yourself
		
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I have no idea, you've posed a non-equivalent comparison in the form of a question that can't be answered. Can you eat your car?

Do you think it's fair we're taxed the same on diesel?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Let's say you don't have a car at all , but have a heat pump and an induction hob

(I believe you are from Scotland? So heating on more, for this example let's say it is correct)

So I use 2700kw electric for my car (12,000 miles) a year

In this situation your not driving your using a bus, taxi etc

Do you think it's fair that we are taxed the same on energy? When you could use over 3000 to feed and heat yourself

Whilst im using less gas because I'm down south so little warmer etc

Is that fair?
		
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I don't have an EV, but have heat pump dryer and induction hob (because the hob is more efficient and cleaner  than gas, not for any other reason.
I have a diesel van, and petrol car.
I expect everybody who puts powered wheels on the roads to pay road fund license. 
I fully expect leccy to go up in price as more people have EV's and/or switch to all electric within their home. It's just the way it always is and always will be.
Is life fair, no it isn't but we have to roll with it.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I have no idea, you've posed a non-equivalent comparison in the form of a question that can't be answered. Can you eat your car?

Do you think it's fair we're taxed the same on diesel?
		
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Well as diesel costs slightly more we pay slightly more in Vat ..

What has eating the car got to do with anything. 

If I'm using a gas hob and your using electric is it fair for you to pay say 20% tax on that electric same as me on the car?

Where as a by mile usage fee that would be fair no?


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What has eating the car got to do with anything.
		
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You tell me! It was your attempt to compare driving your car to feeding and heating.



pauljames87 said:



			If I'm using a gas hob and your using electric is it fair for you to pay say 20% tax on that electric same as me on the car?
		
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Once more from post 477 "A banded system would scale across every type of consumer."

Banded = a system of cost bands. Scale = proportional dimensions applied across a range of populations and geographies.



pauljames87 said:



			Where as a by mile usage fee that would be fair no?
		
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For the love of mod edit. DISTANCE IS NOT A UNIT OF ENERGY.

I'm taking an infraction for this in the hope it sticks this time.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			You tell me! It was your attempt to compare driving your car to feeding and heating.



Once more from post 477 "A banded system would scale across every type of consumer."

Banded = a system of cost bands. Scale = proportional dimensions applied across a range of populations and geographies.



For the l(Mod Edit). DISTANCE IS NOT A UNIT OF ENERGY.

I'm taking an infraction for this in the hope it sticks this time.
		
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More distance I travel more energy I use ..

I'm comparing them because if you have more electric items to heat home etc then you use MORE energy on that than I do on my car

So you are being taxed to heat and eat and I'm being taxed to travel

What don't you understand? Sorry but you really have missed the entire point and swearing just makes you look like a child.


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## JamesR (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I have no idea, you've posed a non-equivalent comparison in the form of a question that can't be answered. *Can you eat your car?*

Do you think it's fair we're taxed the same on diesel?
		
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Can you eat your car? 

I think he does something far more personal with it, he loves the damn thing so much


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## chellie (Nov 18, 2021)

I will reduce my carbon emissions by continuing to eat BRITISH meat and chicken and drinking milk from local cows.

I will try to eat only BRITISH seasonal fruit and vegetables.

I will continue to only heat the house when it's cold and turn lights off when I'm not in the room.

I will not be buying an electric car as I can't damn well afford one.


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## patricks148 (Nov 18, 2021)

Fragger has already posted a warning so for the last time.. please stop the personal digs and insults. Please be respectful of each other


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So you are being taxed to heat and eat and I'm being taxed to travel
		
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How are you eating tax free?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			How are you eating tax free?
		
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You have missed the point please read.

In this EXAMPLE you have an induction hob and I still have a gas hob and oven 

You cook a meal and use let's say 2kw of electric .. but your taxed at 20% because electric went up to catch all the people who used Evs 

I'm using gas which vat is at 5% because it's not being used to catch car uses 

You then turn on your heat pump and use 15kw electric to heat the house for a day ... Your taxed at 20% .. I'll wack on the gas boiler 

You then ride a bike to work

I drive 50 mile round trip and let's just say I use 17kw (the same as you have used for your dinner and heating your house)

Is it fair on you that you have paid the same tax on that usage when you used it to heat and eat and I used it to travel?

Where as if the new tax was applied on miles traveled in the car annually would that not be fairer way of calculating it?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

@Jimaroid even if they raised electric to £1 a kw at 20% tax to use the electric for 12,000 miles would be £450 a year tax (whilst increase everyone's tax to heat their home)

But on the road on a 50mpg car you need 240 gallons to go 12000 miles.. that's 1080 litres .. that's 57.95p tax rate .. that's £625 

It would be a massive loss to try and tax on electric for road usage 

Where as @cliveb said he was asked 20 years ago to look into by mile taxing .. so I'm sure they have looked into it and that will be the way forward


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You have missed the point please read.

In this EXAMPLE you have an induction hob and I still have a gas hob and oven

You cook a meal and use let's say 2kw of electric .. but your taxed at 20% because electric went up to catch all the people who used Evs

I'm using gas which vat is at 5% because it's not being used to catch car uses

You then turn on your heat pump and use 15kw electric to heat the house for a day ... Your taxed at 20% .. I'll wack on the gas boiler

You then ride a bike to work

I drive 50 mile round trip and let's just say I use 17kw (the same as you have used for your dinner and heating your house)

Is it fair on you that you have paid the same tax on that usage when you used it to heat and eat and I used it to travel?

Where as if the new tax was applied on miles traveled in the car annually would that not be fairer way of calculating it?
		
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If there MUST be tax on EVs (as I agree, there eventually should be), then it should be measured and charged at/on the vehicle itself!
That way, there is no 'distortion' involved by taxing other (heating, cooking etc.) energy use.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			If there MUST be tax on EVs (as I agree, there eventually should be), then it should be measured and charged at/on the vehicle itself!
Thast way, there is no 'distortion' involved by taxing other (heating, cooking etc.) energy use.
		
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That's exactly what I've been saying 

My car records the milage it does 
The kw it takes in charge 

Either of them tax could be applied to 

Maybe a flat 20p per kw for car use only 

It would be criminal to tax people for using heat pumps etc


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You have missed the point please read.
		
Click to expand...



If you invent a stupid example you'll receive stupid answers. There's no way to answer a question that makes no sense and uses numbers you're pulling out of the air to build a straw man. And it still doesn't even fit with what I've said.

For utter clarity. Electricity used to charge EVs should be taxed at a different rate to electricity used to heat your dinner. It's a simple tax banding problem.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:





If you invent a stupid example you'll receive stupid answers. There's no way to answer a question that makes no sense and uses numbers you're pulling out of the air to build a straw man. And it still doesn't even fit with what I've said.

For utter clarity. Electricity used to charge EVs should be taxed at a different rate to electricity used to heat your dinner. It's a simple tax banding problem.
		
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Which is exactly what I agree with. I've said it how many times? Stop arguing for the sake of it...

As I've said countless times it needs to be done on either milage or amount of kw put in a car 

However amount put in a car recorded by a charger etc would then include that fed in by solar energy.. which should be tax free as it's generated by the owner.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			As I've said countless times it needs to be done on either milage or amount of kw put in a car
		
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You can do it on mileage. But it'd be wrong.


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## DaveR (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:





If you invent a stupid example you'll receive stupid answers. There's no way to answer a question that makes no sense and uses numbers you're pulling out of the air to build a straw man. And it still doesn't even fit with what I've said.

For utter clarity. Electricity used to charge EVs should be taxed at a different rate to electricity used to heat your dinner. It's a simple tax banding problem.
		
Click to expand...

He should be able to understand that concept seeing as he is always banging on about charging his car at off peak rates through his smart meter


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			You can do it on mileage. But it'd be wrong.
		
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When it's tax right? ........

Right now your taxed on fuel plus VAT on top of that tax .. is that right? 

Milage is easy to implement ..

Modern cars have chips and report milage back to dealers 

Old cars will use petrol and get taxed

Ev will report milage and get taxed 

I'd bet a lot of money milage will become the tax and people will be taxed on milage and at the pumps to "encourage" them to switch to ev to be taxed "only" on milage.


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2021)

'should be tax free' and 'is tax free' are rarely, if ever, coincide!
Purchase Tax (the precurser to VAT) is a classic example, at least post WWII.


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			...
I'd bet a lot of money milage will become the tax and people will be taxed on milage and at the pumps to "encourage" them to switch to ev to be taxed "only" on milage.
		
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Usage is far more appropriate! And that's, presumably, how EVs are already being charged/taxed at 'pumps' now - just as per Petrol/Diesel.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Usage is far more appropriate! And that's, presumably, how EVs are already being charged/taxed at 'pumps' now - just as per Petrol/Diesel.
		
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5% on electric

At my 5p rate I pay £6.42 a year in tax 

If I charged at Mt 14p rate I'd pay £18 a year in tax for traveling 12,000 miles 

2700 kw usage to travel that


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Milage is easy to implement ..
		
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I agree. It's really easy to do something wrong.

Fuel is taxed.
And what fuel is used in EVs? The answer is electricty
So what do we tax in EVs? The answer is...

MILEAGE!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I agree. It's really easy to do something wrong.

Fuel is taxed.
And what fuel is used in EVs? The answer is electricty
So what do we tax in EVs? The answer is...

MILEAGE!


Click to expand...

What has been spoken about by government? Milage .. 

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it won't happen


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## BiMGuy (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I agree. It's really easy to do something wrong.

Fuel is taxed.
And what fuel is used in EVs? The answer is electricty
So what do we tax in EVs? The answer is...

MILEAGE!


Click to expand...

Why do we have to raise tax in the same way we do now?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why do we have to raise tax in the same way we do now?
		
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Because people don't like change


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

@Jimaroid 

"Pay-per-mile road pricing no longer politically toxic, study suggests | Auto Express" https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/...o-longer-politically-toxic-study-suggests?amp


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



@Jimaroid

"Pay-per-mile road pricing no longer politically toxic, study suggests | Auto Express" https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/...o-longer-politically-toxic-study-suggests?amp

Click to expand...

I don't care if its a statistically acceptable number of people to ask but to only ask 3000 people .........
I've said it before and I'll say it again..if pay per mile comes in the entire driving instruction industry would grind to a halt as we'd have to put our prices up to a level where nobody would want to pay..I'd give up and I know many, many others who would too.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I don't care if its a statistically acceptable number of people to ask but to only ask 3000 people .........
I've said it before and I'll say it again..if pay per mile comes in the entire driving instruction industry would grind to a halt as we'd have to put our prices up to a level where nobody would want to pay..I'd give up and I know many, many others who would too.
		
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But you pay tax on your fuel now .... It would work out similar for tax purposes why would that be different? 

Honestly asking


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But you pay tax on your fuel now .... It would work out similar for tax purposes why would that be different?

Honestly asking
		
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You're assuming that I'm going electric.....I have no plans to until I have to
I'll still be buying diesel and being taxed on that
If PPM is added my costs go up.

Unless the cost of diesel and petrol reduce or PPM is only aligned to EVs then its just not going to work.
Like it or not ICE cars are going to be around for a very long time..
Are you going to "punish" those who don't go EV?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You're assuming that I'm going electric.....I have no plans to until I have to
I'll still be buying diesel and being taxed on that
If PPM is added my costs go up.

Unless the cost of diesel and petrol reduce or PPM is only aligned to EVs then its just not going to work.
Like it or not ICE cars are going to be around for a very long time..
Are you going to "punish" those who don't go EV?
		
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Me personally ? No but I'd wager the gov will as a green "tax" to "encourage" switch to ev for "affordability"


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Me personally ? No but I'd wager the gov will as a green "tax" to "encourage" switch to ev for "affordability"
		
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Which is why I'll give up.....


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Which is why I'll give up.....
		
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We are 8 years away from the ban on sale of new ones 

I doubt the new tax system would be running before that as people would still be mostly driving petrol and being taxed to hell 

I'd guess you would be retired by then anyways?

I'd be interested to see driving instructors in EVs.. would manual tests become a thing of the past


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why do we have to raise tax in the same way we do now?
		
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Well. That’s a good question and the point I was originally getting at. To take the opportunity of the crisis, make a fair and incentivised tax system so it can be applied in all energy use towards carbon reduction. 

But it’s nothing to do with distance. 

“What’s the leccy bill this month darling?” 

150 miles!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Well. That’s a good question and the point I was originally getting at. To take the opportunity of the crisis, make a fair and incentivised tax system so it can be applied in all energy use towards carbon reduction.

But it’s nothing to do with distance.

“What’s the leccy bill this month darling?”

150 miles! 

Click to expand...

But that isn't what you said is It? You deliberately went aggressive completely not stating your point just because you didn't agree with my point.

Now that I could get on board with but how would you propose it's implemented?

How would the metre know how much kw is being used by something like the kettle which is bad or by the heat pump?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 18, 2021)

Isn't the whole point redcuing emissions...thats what the thread title is anyway...
EV's still create emissions through production, charging, and disposing of. Of course the Govt will  find ways to raise the revenue lost from current fuels, anyone can see that. Couple that with the phasing out of gas use, and its hitting you in the face like a wet kipper that leccy is going to be taxed a lot harder than now "to encourage us to use less"......

It's no good harping on about people not liking change, and wanting to keep certains things as they are now. We ALL have to accept change, regardless of our views or opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Isn't the whole point redcuing emissions...thats what the thread title is anyway...
EV's still create emissions through production, charging, and disposing of. Of course the Govt will  find ways to raise the revenue lost from current fuels, anyone can see that. Couple that with the phasing out of gas use, and its hitting you in the face like a wet kipper that leccy is going to be taxed a lot harder than now "to encourage us to use less"......

It's no good harping on about people not liking change, and wanting to keep certains things as they are now. We ALL have to accept change, regardless of our views or opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I guess they could put duty on electricity used through charging stations somehow 🤔.  I'm not completely ofay with EV charging but I suppose you can run a lead from your home out to your car to charge it, this would create a problem with charging at a different duty rate for domestic electricity.


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd be interested to see driving instructors in EVs.. would manual tests become a thing of the past
		
Click to expand...

Eventually...there are instructors with EVs already and the demand for automatic tests is rising.
The changeover point is going to be tricky to predict.
Costs of EVs ( 2nd hand) will have to come down to realistic levels for the first car market before most instructors change.
And, with a bit of luck, I'll be well out of it by then


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You're assuming that I'm going electric.....I have no plans to until I have to
I'll still be buying diesel and being taxed on that
If PPM is added my costs go up.

Unless the cost of diesel and petrol reduce or PPM is only aligned to EVs then its just not going to work.
Like it or not ICE cars are going to be around for a very long time..
Are you going to "punish" those who don't go EV?
		
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Maybe that’s the plan to get us off the roads.( carbon neutral)
Tax us until the pips squeak.
Then only the rich can afford a car ,like the good old days.


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## DaveR (Nov 18, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Isn't the whole point redcuing emissions...thats what the thread title is anyway...
EV's still create emissions through production, charging, and disposing of. Of course the Govt will  find ways to raise the revenue lost from current fuels, anyone can see that. Couple that with the phasing out of gas use, and its hitting you in the face like a wet kipper that leccy is going to be taxed a lot harder than now "to encourage us to use less"......

It's no good harping on about people not liking change, and wanting to keep certains things as they are now. We ALL have to accept change, regardless of our views or opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Yep leccy will be taxed but it's only 5p a unit overnight and isn't going to go up😉


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess they could put duty on electricity used through charging stations somehow 🤔.  I'm not completely ofay with EV charging but I suppose you can run a lead from your home out to your car to charge it, this would create a problem with charging at a different duty rate for domestic electricity.
		
Click to expand...

You can yes
I can plug in a "Granny" charger into a 3 pin socket and get up to 3kw an hour charge 
Or I have my 7kw charger which is run to a MCB which is seperate from the fuse board run off the electric supply 

The smart metre only knows how many kw I am using 

It doesn't know what is used to run the dishwasher , fridge, hoover or what is being used to charge the car


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You can yes
I can plug in a "Granny" charger into a 3 pin socket and get up to 3kw an hour charge
Or I have my 7kw charger which is run to a MCB which is seperate from the fuse board run off the electric supply

The smart metre only knows how many kw I am using

It doesn't know what is used to run the dishwasher , fridge, hoover or what is being used to charge the car
		
Click to expand...

Yes, however it can't be beyond the capability of man to record and tax the power used in charging stations, or maybe in the car itself.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, however it can't be beyond the capability of man to record and tax the power used in charging stations, or maybe in the car itself.
		
Click to expand...

I've said this a few times aswell

My car records how much charge it receives

The podpoint itself records how much it sends to the car 

However if I fed solar into the podpoint it wouldn't know what was from the grid and what was my own energy


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## Jimaroid (Nov 18, 2021)

You can run any signalling you want over mains circuits, ethernet over mains aka Powerline adaptors for home networks are just mains modems that have been around for decades. Its been possible for many years for a consumer unit to act as a network switch and communicate with devices that are connected to its mains circuit, so it would know which appliances are drawing more power, but there’s been no will to adopt such things as there’s no commercial incentive. You could even retrofit this to all your existing appliances by swapping the plug.

It’s all possible but there’s no commercial or consumer will. 

Hence we need government incentives and disincentives to drive adoption.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

So if/when the government decide on a system to tax EV drivers, will the tax be less than ICE car owners, bearing in mind that the current vehicle tax is based on carbon emissions ?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't only the _initial_ charge is based on emmisions?
		
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The yearly tax on Cars is done by emissions


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The yearly tax on Cars is done by emissions
		
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That's what I said, hence my question


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			That's what I said, hence my question
		
Click to expand...

That's really small fry tho

Ev could pay a standard £150

It's the money from petrol that's going to be more of a loss


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So if/when the government decide on a system to tax EV drivers, will the tax be less than ICE car owners, bearing in mind that the current vehicle tax is based on carbon emissions ?
		
Click to expand...

They either get the tax from EVs or put up other tax.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's really small fry tho

Ev could pay a standard £150

It's the money from petrol that's going to be more of a loss
		
Click to expand...

I understand that but is it fair for EVs to pay £150 when a Ford Fiesta that has 129 g/km of emissions pays less ?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I understand that but is it fair for EVs to pay £150 when a Ford Fiesta that has 129 g/km of emissions pays less ?
		
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Road tax on those cars I'm sure will go up

If ev was £150

Fiesta might be say £250

And so on


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Road tax on those cars I'm sure will go up

If ev was £150

Fiesta might be say £250

And so on
		
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So the retired couple who do 1000 miles per year in their little Fiesta have to pay £100 more than the Tesla owner who does 30,000 per year?
And my tax would go up from £30 to £250 for driving 800 miles last year?

Pay per mile is the only fair way imo.
You use the roads more, you pay more.
eg
1p per mile EV
1.5p per mile petrol
2p per mile diesel


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So the retired couple who do 1000 miles per year in their little Fiesta have to pay £100 more than the Tesla owner who does 30,000 per year?
And my tax would go up from £30 to £250 for driving 800 miles last year?

Pay per mile is the only fair way imo.
You use the roads more, you pay more.
eg
1p per mile EV
1.5p per mile petrol
2p per mile diesel
		
Click to expand...

But that's the system now isn't it 

Old retired couple with a ford pay say £100

Telsa owner doing 30000 a year pays £0


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The yearly tax on Cars is done by emissions
		
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Whilst technically correct, cars registered since 2017 it’s either zero emissions or £155 per year with the biggest penalty applied not on emissions but on value of the car which is nonsensical. 

Then there are still a few cars around on the “old old” system of being banded on engine size rather then emissions (up to 1598cc and over 1600cc I think the split was). 

There will be disparities with which ever system of charging or taxation is applied. Pence per mile will penalise rural people more then urbanites. You may have a Tesco or a Hospital right on your door step or really well organised public transport, but some don’t. Tesco is a 10 mile round trip for me and my nearest hospital is 26 miles away. 

So is that fair on me? It’s impossible to balance it where it’s fair on everyone.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Whilst technically correct, cars registered since 2017 it’s either zero emissions or £155 per year with the biggest penalty applied not on emissions but on value of the car which is nonsensical.

Then there are still a few cars around on the “old old” system of being banded on engine size rather then emissions (up to 1598cc and over 1600cc I think the split was).

There will be disparities with which ever system of charging or taxation is applied. Pence per mile will penalise rural people more then urbanites. You may have a Tesco or a Hospital right on your door step or really well organised public transport, but some don’t. Tesco is a 10 mile round trip for me and my nearest hospital is 26 miles away.

So is that fair on me? It’s impossible to balance it where it’s fair on everyone.
		
Click to expand...

The one I didn't know was that electric cars arent subject to the tax on value


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But that's the system now isn't it

Old retired couple with a ford pay say £100

Telsa owner doing 30000 a year pays £0
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t the system now the way it is to try and incentivise propel to move to EVs though? The changes we talk about I assumed were long term when mass adoption becomes a reality.

The Tesla owner may fall prey to the “premium rate” VED if it’s a model S or X (or over £40k list) of £335 annually. The Fiesta driver won’t. But only in the circumstances that the Tesla is over the premium rate.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Isn’t the system now the way it is to try and incentivise propel to move to EVs though? The changes we talk about I assumed were long term when mass adoption becomes a reality.

The Tesla owner may fall prey to the “premium rate” VED if it’s a model S or X (or over £40k list) of £335 annually. The Fiesta driver won’t. But only in the circumstances that the Tesla is over the premium rate.
		
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They don't, that's the thing I looked into this the telsa even the £100k models

No tax

I stumbled accross this as the model 3 was 39k but to get in a decent colour was 40k pushing it into the tax limit 

I asked a few owners I know 

Confirmed no tax


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The one I didn't know was that electric cars arent subject to the tax on value
		
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Are they not?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Are they not?
		
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Road tax, officially known as Vehicle Excise Duty (VED), is calculated based on the CO2 tailpipe emissions of your vehicle, its list price and which year it was registered in.

Pure battery electric vehicles (BEVs) are exempt from VED.
Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) pay reduced VED.
Any vehicle (excluding BEVs) with a list price of £40,000 or above will incur an additional premium rate for 5 years (starting from the second time the vehicle is taxed).


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Road tax, officially known as Vehicle Excise Duty (VED), is calculated based on the CO2 tailpipe emissions of your vehicle, its list price and which year it was registered in.

Pure battery electric vehicles (BEVs) are exempt from VED.
Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) pay reduced VED.
Any vehicle (excluding BEVs) with a list price of £40,000 or above will incur an additional premium rate for 5 years (starting from the second time the vehicle is taxed).
		
Click to expand...

I didn't realise they escaped that too, which makes the £40k thing even more spurious than it first seemed.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But that's the system now isn't it

Old retired couple with a ford pay say £100

Telsa owner doing 30000 a year pays £0
		
Click to expand...

Yes because of the emission rules at the moment.

But with the majority of cars in the future being Evs, under my new scheme you would pay by miles driven as emissions won't be an issue.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I didn't realise they escaped that too, which makes the £40k thing even more spurious than it first seemed.
		
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Yeah it's very random, so many cars get a list price of that aswell so easily when you add the extras

But a little known fact (I didn't know until I leased) is lease cars the lease company pay the tax not the driver 

So that's a saving for lease drivers not getting that bill 

But yes it's mad , I was ruling myself out the model 3 because I didn't want to pay £300 plus In tax a year .. as that's more than I was paying on two cars at the time


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Pence per mile will penalise rural people more then urbanites. You may have a Tesco or a Hospital right on your door step or really well organised public transport, but some don’t. Tesco is a 10 mile round trip for me and my nearest hospital is 26 miles away.

So is that fair on me? It’s impossible to balance it where it’s fair on everyone.
		
Click to expand...

There's free EV charging at Tesco atm.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yeah it's very random, so many cars get a list price of that aswell so easily when you add the extras

But a little known fact (I didn't know until I leased) is lease cars the lease company pay the tax not the driver

So that's a saving for lease drivers not getting that bill

But yes it's mad , I was ruling myself out the model 3 because I didn't want to pay £300 plus In tax a year .. as that's more than I was paying on two cars at the time
		
Click to expand...

That bodes well for when so finally get my hands on an i4. Unless by then they totally change the system which would be just my luck.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			There's free charging at Tesco atm.  

Click to expand...

Yeah, but I would still have to drive to get there. 

Our Tesco is brilliant (sarcasm dripping) they are supposed to have 10 charging points, some were never installed so they have two and one is constantly out of order due to vandalism. They constantly allow the teenage boy racers to congregate in the car park and then wonder why things are being vandalised.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			That bodes well for when so finally get my hands on an i4. Unless by then they totally change the system which would be just my luck.
		
Click to expand...

No doubt that will happen lol it's the rule of life 

Like you say the system heavily favours EVs but then I didn't pay VED for 7 years when driving my hybrid

There are tons of them on the road so the gov is used to not getting tax from cars in that way 

I wonder if in the future VED will be gone and that's why I personally believe the milage tax will come in to encourage you to drive less


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Yeah, but I would still have to drive to get there.

Our Tesco is brilliant (sarcasm dripping) they are supposed to have 10 charging points, some were never installed so they have two and one is constantly out of order due to vandalism. They constantly allow the teenage boy racers to congregate in the car park and then wonder why things are being vandalised.
		
Click to expand...

Our local sports centre has just re opened, the new car park has 10 free charge points which is great (cabbies always there lol) but the idiots painted 11 bays lol for only 10 sockets 

Standard council


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Our local sports centre has just re opened, the new car park has 10 free charge points which is great (cabbies always there lol) but the idiots painted 11 bays lol for only 10 sockets

Standard council
		
Click to expand...

Could be worse. For ages Croy train station (by Cumbernauld) had 3 chargers but only 2 bays...


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Yeah, but I would still have to drive to get there.
		
Click to expand...

You drive to Tesco, plug in free of charge, do your weekly shop, come out, unplug, drive home.
No time wasted queuing at the petrol station and free fuel.
Go back next week and do the same again.
Of course it won't be free forever but even the expensive rapid chargers are 28p per kw/h so £11 for 160 miles so the expensive charging is still less than half the price of petrol/diesel.
That over 80 mpg


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You drive to Tesco, plug in free of charge, do your weekly shop, come out, unplug, drive home.
No time wasted queuing at the petrol station and free fuel.
Go back next week and do the same again.
Of course it won't be free forever but even the expensive rapid chargers are 28p per kw/h so £11 for 160 miles so the expensive charging is still less than half the price of petrol/diesel.
That over 80 mpg
		
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I wasn't really meaning the cost of charging at that point though Bob. If we are charging per mile driven then the cost of charging is ballast surely? 

My point was a charge per mile would adversely affect those that have to drive further by necessity. If you drive 1 mile to Tesco and charge for free and are charged 2 miles on the PPM model (say at 2p per mile for example) then immediately, before cost of charging is even factored in (or free) I am 16p per journey worse off for the same necessity drive but for no other reason than where I live. 

MPG would play no part whatsoever in a PPM flat charge rate.

It will change, it must change (unless we all pay incredibly more income tax to fill the gap) but a simple PPM flat rate is yet another example of fair for some/unfair for others. There needs to be a middle ground where we pay for the "fuel" as there are cases where a car with shorter range will need to be charged more than a longer range vehicle, use more energy to cover the same, say 200 miles, but be charged the same for that 200 miles... Doesn't seem very fair to me.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I wonder if in the future VED will be gone and that's why I personally believe the milage tax will come in to encourage you to drive less
		
Click to expand...

It needs to change, I agree. The situation we have now does not work for the future. A new system that is capable of transitioning the gap in tax revenue between now and a future without ICE based taxation is required but the "new system" is not just a problem in the domain of electric vehicles. The problem is all energy consumption.

So it cannot be a mileage.

But even if it was mileage for EVs, it's still wrong, because; rural miles, urban miles, motorway miles, stationary miles and so on are all un-equivalent. Taxation based on unequal values is inherently wrong therefore unfair. It is scientifically wrong. It is mathematically wrong. It is politically wrong. It is morally wrong. It is the wrong thing to do.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I wasn't really meaning the cost of charging at that point though Bob. If we are charging per mile driven then the cost of charging is ballast surely?

My point was a charge per mile would adversely affect those that have to drive further by necessity. If you drive 1 mile to Tesco and charge for free and are charged 2 miles on the PPM model (say at 2p per mile for example) then immediately, before cost of charging is even factored in (or free) I am 16p per journey worse off for the same necessity drive but for no other reason than where I live.

MPG would play no part whatsoever in a PPM flat charge rate.

It will change, it must change (unless we all pay incredibly more income tax to fill the gap) but a simple PPM flat rate is yet another example of fair for some/unfair for others. There needs to be a middle ground where we pay for the "fuel" as there are cases where a car with shorter range will need to be charged more than a longer range vehicle, use more energy to cover the same, say 200 miles, but be charged the same for that 200 miles... Doesn't seem very fair to me.
		
Click to expand...

But at the same time. In a petrol car you pay more to drive from 2 miles out than you would a mile out - you'd burn more fuel? - I do understand some cars are more efficient than others.. A mustang over a mile may be more than a corsa over 2 but work with me here..

In a petrol car you simply buy more fuel if you drive more - a PPM system pretty much directly reflects that doesnt it - you buy more electric because you drive more miles?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			But at the same time. In a petrol car you pay more to drive from 2 miles out than you would a mile out - you'd burn more fuel? - I do understand some cars are more efficient than others.. A mustang over a mile may be more than a corsa over 2 but work with me here..

In a petrol car you simply buy more fuel if you drive more - a PPM system pretty much directly reflects that doesnt it - you buy more electric because you drive more miles?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, where MPG *IS * a factor. I can choose for my car to be efficient or in-efficient (mine is in-efficient for the record but damn is it fun!), PPM systems negate that choice by assuming parity where one EV might need charged every day and one charged once a week yet charged the same "running cost". Charging for energy used is surely the way to go, measured either by the vehicle or by an app of some sort. I'm sure that there can be "an app for that" as there seems to be for every other aspect of our lives.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Yes, where MPG *IS * a factor. I can choose for my car to be efficient or in-efficient (mine is in-efficient for the record but damn is it fun!), PPM systems negate that choice by assuming parity where one EV might need charged every day and one charged once a week yet charged the same "running cost". Charging for energy used is surely the way to go, measured either by the vehicle or by an app of some sort. I'm sure that there can be "an app for that" as there seems to be for every other aspect of our lives.
		
Click to expand...

Only problem I keep seeing with that is what if somebody charges using a home battery and solar system

Shouldn't that be free?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Only problem I keep seeing with that is what if somebody charges using a home battery and solar system

Shouldn't that be free?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, and that should be *THE* incentive for people to go even more carbon neutral and install solar. Solar hasn't really become any more affordable in the last 20 years even as technology advances so I thin that may continue to be the case and would be a minority (just like now where there is a minority that get "free" VED, they would be supplanted by the solar users with the majority being charged). 

As I've said there isn't a single simple solution - optimists will say "yes, there is" but each solution will penalise someone. It's where do we draw the line?

I am still mulling over solarising (that's my new word for it) my garage as my machinery in the workshop draws a lot of power. But it's not cheap and the Mrs says we have much more important things to spunk a few grand on before that is even on the radar (well, her radar).


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Solar hasn't really become any more affordable in the last 20 years
		
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_''The median cost of a 4kW installation has reduced from £20,000 in 2010 to £6,668 in 2017. This represents a 67% drop in median installation cost since 2010.''_

_https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/uk-domestic-solar-panel-costs-and-returns-2010-2017_


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''The median cost of a 4kW installation has reduced from £20,000 in 2010 to £6,668 in 2017. This represents a 67% drop in median installation cost since 2010.''_

_https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/uk-domestic-solar-panel-costs-and-returns-2010-2017_

Click to expand...

I know the cost has dropped, that's why I specifically didn't say become cheaper.

Also the median cost, what is the mean cost?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I know the cost has dropped, that's why I specifically didn't say become cheaper.

Also the median cost, what is the mean cost?
		
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The mid point - so the average really


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Absolutely, and that should be *THE* incentive for people to go even more carbon neutral and install solar. Solar hasn't really become any more affordable in the last 20 years even as technology advances so I thin that may continue to be the case and would be a minority (just like now where there is a minority that get "free" VED, they would be supplanted by the solar users with the majority being charged).

As I've said there isn't a single simple solution - optimists will say "yes, there is" but each solution will penalise someone. It's where do we draw the line?

I am still mulling over solarising (that's my new word for it) my garage as my machinery in the workshop draws a lot of power. But it's not cheap and the Mrs says we have much more important things to spunk a few grand on before that is even on the radar (well, her radar).
		
Click to expand...

My dream is solar and batteries 

Enough to store energy and use to top up the house / car 

Ideally 50kw battery .. that would manage itself so when I've used the solar it charges off the cheap times .. then as solar feeds in it supplies the house until it's full of solar again ..

That would mean I could never need the grid to supply the house just to fill the battery and means powercuts wouldnt affect me


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			The mid point - so the average really
		
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No, only the value that sits at the middle of a range. Not the average (which is the mean)


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## Bdill93 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			No, only the value that sits at the middle of a range. Not the average (which is the mean)
		
Click to expand...

So the mid point then......


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''The median cost of a 4kW installation has reduced from £20,000 in 2010 to £6,668 in 2017. This represents a 67% drop in median installation cost since 2010.''_

_https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/uk-domestic-solar-panel-costs-and-returns-2010-2017_

Click to expand...

So it's gone from really expensive to just expensive. It's still a lot and not on the radar for most people. I'd love it incidentally, I just can't justify it at this point.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So it's gone from really expensive to just expensive. It's still a lot and not on the radar for most people. I'd love it incidentally, I just can't justify it at this point.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly that. 

Ive got a driveway, a kitchen, a bathroom and a patio id rather address first...


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Which is why I used the word affordable and not cheap.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

A 4kw system today is £5685

https://ups-solar.co.uk/?gclid=CjwK...OcTKhO0HRxmEaEeBoWSE6B3NLVSyGnFhoC1ksQAvD_BwE


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So it's gone from really expensive to just expensive. It's still a lot and not on the radar for most people. I'd love it incidentally, I just can't justify it at this point.
		
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This is the thing aswell does solar really add value to a house? Like a kitchen or bathroom would 

A lot of people move based on their needs/ work etc 

So would they want to spend 7k on panels?

Maybe when their retired and set to live there a long time 

I'm in a unique position that we have picked our forever house. So anything I spend I don't factor getting back on sales I factor what benefit to our family, like the air con and the loft .. loft added more space air con allowed the house to be comfortable in the summer 

Who would want to spend 7k on panels on a house that in 5 years they could be moving out of


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A 4kw system today is £5685

https://ups-solar.co.uk/?gclid=CjwK...OcTKhO0HRxmEaEeBoWSE6B3NLVSyGnFhoC1ksQAvD_BwE

Click to expand...

And how does that equate to a standard home’s usage (genuinely I tersted as this is a part I haven’t looked at for a home setting (just the garage)


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Exactly that.

Ive got a driveway, a kitchen, a bathroom and a patio id rather address first... 

Click to expand...

You will also have to buy a new air source heat pump to repalce your boiler. That's £10k, plus higher servicing, plus the purchase of thermals, thickers socks, Norwegian jumpers etc to keep you warm because they don't really work well in winter .

Solar is a lovely concept but it is a tough sell at this point. I know on the estate where I live I don't remember anyone fitting new panels for a very long time. There was a small flurry at one point, govt grant and payback, but then it all stopped. You don't see vans on the estate, new panels going up. Somehow that needs invigorating again.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You will also have to buy a new air source heat pump to repalce your boiler. That's £10k, plus higher servicing, plus the purchase of thermals, thickers socks, Norwegian jumpers etc to keep you warm because they don't really work well in winter .

Solar is a lovely concept but it is a tough sell at this point. I know on the estate where I live I don't remember anyone fitting new panels for a very long time. There was a small flurry at one point, govt grant and payback, but then it all stopped. You don't see vans on the estate, new panels going up. Somehow that needs invigorating again.
		
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We have, well lets call them neighbours (they're actually up the top of the road) that had to get their roof replaced in Spring after winter wind damage to tiles and underfelt and they decided to get panels installed as part of it. I've always been tempted to ask how much/efficient they are but seeing as I've never spoken to them before in 5 years and I don't really want to have to say hello every passing thereafter... I might just leave it


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## Bdill93 (Nov 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You will also have to buy a new air source heat pump to repalce your boiler. That's £10k, plus higher servicing, plus the purchase of thermals, thickers socks, Norwegian jumpers etc to keep you warm because they don't really work well in winter .

Solar is a lovely concept but it is a tough sell at this point. I know on the estate where I live I don't remember anyone fitting new panels for a very long time. There was a small flurry at one point, govt grant and payback, but then it all stopped. You don't see vans on the estate, new panels going up. Somehow that needs invigorating again.
		
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Had a new boiler a year or so ago - stuff the heat pump!


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			And how does that equate to a standard home’s usage (genuinely I tersted as this is a part I haven’t looked at for a home setting (just the garage)
		
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_''Generally speaking, a 3kw or 4kw solar panel array will be able to produce enough energy to power a home containing a family of four or five people.''_
The 3 Kw starts at £4,500
_https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.u...-much-electricity-does-a-solar-panel-produce/_


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Had a new boiler a year or so ago - stuff the heat pump! 

Click to expand...

Ours is 11yrs old and going strong. However, we may go early on replacing with a new gas boiler before we get lumped with one of the new 'tepid' boilers.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''Generally speaking, a 3kw or 4kw solar panel array will be able to produce enough energy to power a home containing a family of four or five people.''_
The 3 Kw starts at £4,500
_https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.u...-much-electricity-does-a-solar-panel-produce/_

Click to expand...

Is it not dependant on the size of the house rather than the number of occupants? is that 4 or 5 in a 3 bed house or 4 or 5 in a 5 bedroom house?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			We have, well lets call them neighbours (they're actually up the top of the road) that had to get their roof replaced in Spring after winter wind damage to tiles and underfelt and they decided to get panels installed as part of it. I've always been tempted to ask how much/efficient they are but seeing as I've never spoken to them before in 5 years and I don't really want to have to say hello every passing thereafter... I might just leave it 

Click to expand...

I'm with you, it would be interesting. The only person I actually know who has them bought them when the govt was still offering maximum payment for feeding into the grid. They cost him £7k but he worked out after 6 months that he would be in credit within 3-4 years. The govt got their figures wrong and then pulled the rug out, one lurch then another. Somewhere is a good middle ground.

As you say, how much does it cost, how much does it generate to cover your own electricity bills, is there any spare to fee back? We seem to be moving to an entirely electric future so solar on roofs may come back into fashion again.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Is it not dependant on the size of the house rather than the number of occupants? is that 4 or 5 in a 3 bed house or 4 or 5 in a 5 bedroom house?
		
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I've no idea.
Go to any of the sites and put in your details and I'm sure they will give you a rough idea.
It will certainly be less than it was 10 years ago.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm with you, it would be interesting. The only person I actually know who has them bought them when the govt was still offering maximum payment for feeding into the grid. They cost him £7k but he worked out after 6 months that he would be in credit within 3-4 years. The govt got their figures wrong and then pulled the rug out, one lurch then another. Somewhere is a good middle ground.

As you say, how much does it cost, how much does it generate to cover your own electricity bills, is there any spare to fee back? We seem to be moving to an entirely electric future so solar on roofs may come back into fashion again.
		
Click to expand...

I want panels and batteries but for example octopus give me a choice.. panels with feed in tariff for money off your bills or the go tariff for the car 

So get panels and loose the cheap charging

Not exactly making it tempting 

That's why I want to wait until I can afford both panels and batteries


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's why I want to wait until I can afford both panels and batteries
		
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£8135

https://ups-solar.co.uk/?gclid=CjwK...OcTKhO0HRxmEaEeBoWSE6B3NLVSyGnFhoC1ksQAvD_BwE


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			£8135

https://ups-solar.co.uk/?gclid=CjwK...OcTKhO0HRxmEaEeBoWSE6B3NLVSyGnFhoC1ksQAvD_BwE

Click to expand...

4kw is not enough 

I want something more on the lines of 30-50 kw for storage


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've no idea.
Go to any of the sites and put in your details and I'm sure they will give you a rough idea.
It will certainly be less than it was 10 years ago.
		
Click to expand...

I note a vagueness to some of the comments/assertions on some of the websites (should and maybe get used a lot). I found this interesting comment as it gives a (sort of) benchmark (assuming it's correct, there appears to be no "showing their workings" as it were).

The Energy Saving Trust (EST) estimates that a typical three-bedroom home in the UK will use just over 3,000kw per year. So, a 4kw or 5kw system would cover this.
This, for our circumstances, becomes counter to the _''Generally speaking, a 3kw or 4kw solar panel array will be able to produce enough energy to power a home containing a family of four or five people.''_  statement as we are a household of 3 so would need less than 3 or 4Kw in that premise but, as a 4 bedroom property, more than the 4 or 5Kw system in the EST projections. It all seems a bit muddled and having just perused a number of sites and sources they all seem to indicate different requirements and workings. That also does not help the cause. 

What size of system do you have as I understand from your posts you live alone so do you manage with a much smaller system than 3-4Kw? And how do you experience it's efficiencies (as a saving for example).


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm with you, it would be interesting. The only person I actually know who has them bought them when the govt was still offering maximum payment for feeding into the grid. They cost him £7k but he worked out after 6 months that he would be in credit within 3-4 years. The govt got their figures wrong and then pulled the rug out, one lurch then another. Somewhere is a good middle ground.

As you say, how much does it cost, how much does it generate to cover your own electricity bills, is there any spare to fee back? We seem to be moving to an entirely electric future so solar on roofs may come back into fashion again.
		
Click to expand...

I'd personally want to go solar if it provided for my house and my house alone, I wouldn't even be bothered about feed back to the grid as long as it didn't cost me more to run and provided me and my family with a stable power environment. Living in Scotland, it's fortunate that it's not heat that provides the power or we'd be screwed. It would also be interesting over the winter months where we get much less daylight, is that factored in to any "average system requirements"?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A 4kw system today is £5685

https://ups-solar.co.uk/?gclid=CjwK...OcTKhO0HRxmEaEeBoWSE6B3NLVSyGnFhoC1ksQAvD_BwE

Click to expand...

I’ve sent them a quote request, see what they come back with.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			What size of system do you have as I understand from your posts you live alone so do you manage with a much smaller system than 3-4Kw? And how do you experience it's efficiencies (as a saving for example).
		
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Are you kidding, have you seen the price of them?  

No, I don't have solar or an EV but in 3-4 years I will be getting the works, thanks to Equity release.
But I am doing my research now as I find the subject very interesting and the future exiting.
Solar, batteries home charger and a lovely new-ish EV.
Cant wait.
When I do go for it, I will make sure I get lots of quotes so I know where I stand.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I’ve sent them a quote request, see what they come back with.
		
Click to expand...

I had a visit a few weeks ago from a guy who was trying to sell me a heat pump. £14,950 
A few days later it came down to £11,500
No thanks, but....
He did tell me there are rumours about the govt. introducing a new incentive for solar panels next year so I should hang on.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Are you kidding, have you seen the price of them?  

No, I don't have solar or an EV but in 3-4 years I will be getting the works, thanks to Equity release.
But I am doing my research now as I find the subject very interesting and the future exiting.
Solar, batteries home charger and a lovely new-ish EV.
Cant wait.
When I do go for it, I will make sure I get lots of quotes so I know where I stand.
		
Click to expand...

So, I have to ask. As someone who is clearly and vocally an advocate for how affordable and accessible clean energy is, if you don't mind my asking, what is stopping you from making the change right now?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I had a visit a few weeks ago from a guy who was trying to sell me a heat pump. £14,950 
A few days later it came down to £11,500
No thanks, but....
He did tell me there are rumours about the govt. introducing a new incentive for solar panels next year so I should hang on.
		
Click to expand...

So just had a chat on the phone with a very nice lady who took my postcode for google earth views of orientation and location etc, and talked me through number of bedrooms, current boiler/heating system and our general usage (based on current/historic leccy bills) and she reliably informs me that I would need a 7.5Kw system at minimum and this would cost somewhere between £10 and 12k but my limiting factor would be roof area space for all of the required panels and she didn't think that it would be achievable unless I went for smaller panels and a smaller system and this would introduce energy deficiency risk. 

Seems like I need a re-think on that one.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So, I have to ask. As someone who is clearly and vocally an advocate for how affordable and accessible clean energy is, if you don't mind my asking, what is stopping you from making the change right now?
		
Click to expand...

I'm the same as many other people, I just cant afford it yet.
I'm retired and don't have enough savings to do what I want to do.
I could get the solar but not the car
Or I could get a car but not the solar.
And if I got either and my boiler goes pop, I'm in trouble.
So I have to wait.
But when I get my state pension and the Equity release, then I can do it all at once.
I just need my 21 year old boiler to hang on for a few more years.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Seems like I need a re-think on that one.
		
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Sounds very similar to the result I came to a couple of years ago. Once I got past the sales guff and entered the rabbit hole of actually trying to design a system around the constraints of the house the dream was over.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Sounds very similar to the result I came to a couple of years ago. Once I got past the sales guff and entered the rabbit hole of actually trying to design a system around the constraints of the house the dream was over.
		
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I have to give her credit for being open and honest on it. As soon as she looked at the roof style and available space V's the required energy she just said it would be incredibly difficult. She was going to send me information on smaller higher efficiency panels (apparently they exist but are almost 3 times the cost).


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## Jimaroid (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I have to give her credit for being open and honest on it. As soon as she looked at the roof style and available space V's the required energy she just said it would be incredibly difficult. She was going to send me information on smaller higher efficiency panels (apparently they exist but are almost 3 times the cost).
		
Click to expand...

I'd still be interested in knowing what you find out.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

That's really annoying when one site says 3-4 kw is enough for a family of 4 or 5 and you are told 7.5kw for a family of 3.
Sorry if I got your hopes up, it wasn't intentional.


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## BrianM (Nov 19, 2021)

Does no one else not think solar panels look bloody awful on roofs.
That's the first thing that would stop me getting them


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I had a visit a few weeks ago from a guy who was trying to sell me a heat pump. £14,950 
A few days later it came down to £11,500
No thanks, but....
He did tell me there are rumours about the govt. introducing a new incentive for solar panels next year so I should hang on.
		
Click to expand...

One postive of brexit is the gov could set tax on solar and battery installs to a much lower level to encourage switching 

I'm yet to see a positive so let's do this one


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I'd still be interested in knowing what you find out.
		
Click to expand...

Not heard back on the small panels yet but they sent me a quote based on my maximum "viable roofspace" which is a 16 panel 5.8Kw system installed which has 3 options priced;

System only, no battery £6552
System with a 2.6Kw battery £7802 
System with 5.2Kw (2 x 2.6Kw) batteries £9000

Initial thoughts would be, if that was enough power to run the whole home (inc garage) then that's not actually a bad price without the battery. £2450 for batteries is quite a jump though although I get the advantages. 

Now I am in a fortunate position that I could afford that system, but I appreciate that for many £6.5K is a whole lot of money let alone £9K if they wanted batteries.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Not heard back on the small panels yet but they sent me a quote based on my maximum "viable roofspace" which is a 16 panel 5.8Kw system installed which has 3 options priced;

System only, no battery £6552
System with a 2.6Kw battery £7802
System with 5.2Kw (2 x 2.6Kw) batteries £9000

Initial thoughts would be, if that was enough power to run the whole home (inc garage) then that's not actually a bad price without the battery. £2450 for batteries is quite a jump though although I get the advantages.

Now I am in a fortunate position that I could afford that system, but I appreciate that for many £6.5K is a whole lot of money let alone £9K if they wanted batteries.
		
Click to expand...

Once we get to a time when 10k gets a decent system with say a 30kw battery I'm in ..

Least then I could keep the house going all time and top up with solar


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

Maybe I been looking at this the wrong way all this time 

We are high usage household, 20-25kw a day (50 when the car charges) night time is cheap as it is 

So maybe I should get solar and sod the battery .. my house would most likely use all it generates anyways ...


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe I been looking at this the wrong way all this time

We are high usage household, 20-25kw a day (50 when the car charges) night time is cheap as it is

So maybe I should get solar and sod the battery .. my house would most likely use all it generates anyways ...
		
Click to expand...

The advice given to me today was that the buy-back schemes are so poor performing now that they offer no real incentive over just powering your home and optionally storing what you don't use. A secondary option was (if you have a hot water tank/immersion heater) to use spare to heat water and get "free hot water" with the excess energy (£299 optional add on for that).

You must be an exceptionally high usage household as the information today stated average electricity demand for a 4 bedroom house with a gas heating system was around 8Kw but up to around 12Kw in exceptional circumstances (averaging around 10Kw).


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			The advice given to me today was that the buy-back schemes are so poor performing now that they offer no real incentive over just powering your home and optionally storing what you don't use. A secondary option was (if you have a hot water tank/immersion heater) to use spare to heat water and get "free hot water" with the excess energy (£299 optional add on for that).

You must be an exceptionally high usage household as the information today stated average electricity demand for a 4 bedroom house with a gas heating system was around 8Kw but up to around 12Kw in exceptional circumstances (averaging around 10Kw).
		
Click to expand...

Must be, but we have a lot of electrical items

4 bed house, heat pump tumble, air conditioning, washing machine, oven etc

In winter we use a bit on underfloor heating in the downstairs loo as there is no heating in there and it gets very cold

I've seen us use as low as 15kw a day but with the kids it's 20-25 just the amount of washing

It's at least 8 loads (all tumble) a week and 1 dishwasher a night

For sake of argument I always work towards 11,000 kw a year


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## larmen (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Not heard back on the small panels yet but they sent me a quote based on my maximum "viable roofspace" which is a 16 panel 5.8Kw system installed which has 3 options priced;

System only, no battery £6552
System with a 2.6Kw battery £7802
System with 5.2Kw (2 x 2.6Kw) batteries £9000

Initial thoughts would be, if that was enough power to run the whole home (inc garage) then that's not actually a bad price without the battery. £2450 for batteries is quite a jump though although I get the advantages.

Now I am in a fortunate position that I could afford that system, but I appreciate that for many £6.5K is a whole lot of money let alone £9K if they wanted batteries.
		
Click to expand...

How much roof space are you talking about? Just to get the kW into context of square meters?
We have about 6m long fairly south facing roof line.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Must be, but we have a lot of electrical items

4 bed house, heat pump tumble, air conditioning, washing machine, oven etc

In winter we use a bit on underfloor heating in the downstairs loo as there is no heating in there and it gets very cold

I've seen us use as low as 15kw a day but with the kids it's 20-25 just the amount of washing

It's at least 8 loads (all tumble) a week and 1 dishwasher a night

For sake of argument I always work towards 11,000 kw a year
		
Click to expand...

Air con in England! OOO how the other half live!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Air con in England! OOO how the other half live! 

Click to expand...

Got to keep the staff at an comfortable temperature 🌡️


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			How much roof space are you talking about? Just to get the kW into context of square meters?
We have about 6m long fairly south facing roof line.
		
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Our roof is steeply pitched and I would estimate the "usable space" as about 12m2 our house (according to the quote info) has one usable side and is 40 degrees off south which apparently renders some of it next to useless.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Must be, but we have a lot of electrical items

4 bed house, heat pump tumble, air conditioning, washing machine, oven etc

In winter we use a bit on underfloor heating in the downstairs loo as there is no heating in there and it gets very cold

I've seen us use as low as 15kw a day but with the kids it's 20-25 just the amount of washing

It's at least 8 loads (all tumble) a week and 1 dishwasher a night

For sake of argument I always work towards 11,000 kw a year
		
Click to expand...

I think I'd be looking at reducing your carbon footprint before you look at reducing your carbon footprint 

I have a lot of high draw electrical items as well but despise tumble driers so won't have one. But a couple of big amps and then the garage tools (big table saw, big mitre saw, big bench planer etc) but we are nowhere near that level of use.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I think I'd be looking at reducing your carbon footprint before you look at reducing your carbon footprint 

I have a lot of high draw electrical items as well but despise tumble driers so won't have one. But a couple of big amps and then the garage tools (big table saw, big mitre saw, big bench planer etc) but we are nowhere near that level of use.
		
Click to expand...

The tumble is low because it's heat pump

We were similar usage before the air con

Think it's just the amount of electrical items rather than high usage. Lot of light bulbs but all led WiFi controlled ones so should be lowest usage

Dishwasher is on a smart plug so I can see that used 440kw in a year

We recently starting using an air fryer more than the oven so that reduced usage

The CCTV system doesn't use a lot of energy

I just think it all adds up as the high draw stuff all goes on at night

But then looking at it .. at night when nothing is on.. the house is pulling half a kw every hour .. so that does make sense as that's 12 kw a day. But that's winter when the floors on


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Our roof is steeply pitched and I would estimate the "usable space" as about 12m2 our house (according to the quote info) has one usable side and is 40 degrees off south which apparently renders some of it next to useless.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting; so a roof that’s about 25% north facing with the remainder split between due east and due west probably won’t be much use then…


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2021)

"Norway Is Running Out of Gas-Guzzling Cars to Tax | WIRED UK" https://www.wired.co.uk/article/norway-electric-vehicle-tax


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## cliveb (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''The median cost of a 4kW installation has reduced from £20,000 in 2010 to £6,668 in 2017. This represents a 67% drop in median installation cost since 2010.''_

_https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/uk-domestic-solar-panel-costs-and-returns-2010-2017_

Click to expand...

I had a 4kW system installed in 2011 for £11,500. Did it really drop that much in one year?
(Unfortunately we've now moved)


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## cliveb (Nov 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My dream is solar and batteries
		
Click to expand...

My dream is wind turbine and batteries. Winter is when you need the power, and it tends to be less sunny and more windy in winter.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Not heard back on the small panels yet but they sent me a quote based on my maximum "viable roofspace" which is a 16 panel 5.8Kw system installed which has 3 options priced;

System only, no battery £6552
System with a 2.6Kw battery £7802
System with 5.2Kw (2 x 2.6Kw) batteries £9000

Initial thoughts would be, if that was enough power to run the whole home (inc garage) then that's not actually a bad price without the battery. £2450 for batteries is quite a jump though although I get the advantages.

Now I am in a fortunate position that I could afford that system, but I appreciate that for many £6.5K is a whole lot of money let alone £9K if they wanted batteries.
		
Click to expand...

If that is the price £9000 for a system with inverter to send energy back to the grid, inc batteries I would snap there hands off. It cost me that just for the system, and that is for a then max at the time 4 KW system.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 19, 2021)

cliveb said:



			My dream is wind turbine and batteries. Winter is when you need the power, and it tends to be less sunny and more windy in winter.
		
Click to expand...

There must be some way to create, convert and save/use static electricity


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			If that is the price £9000 for a system with inverter to send energy back to the grid, inc batteries I would snap there hands off. It cost me that just for the system, and that is for a then max at the time 4 KW system.
		
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It did indeed, the whole kit. But doesn’t detract from the fact that you their own calculations it would be underpowered. So no point snapping hands off for a partial solution.


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## larmen (Nov 19, 2021)

Is that installed cost or just parts?


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## Tashyboy (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			It did indeed, the whole kit. But doesn’t detract from the fact that you their own calculations it would be underpowered. So no point snapping hands off for a partial solution.
		
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Greg how do you mean there own calculations. When I had my panels
Fitted, I was led to believe the generating figures were not down to each individual company but national figures that every company used.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			Is that installed cost or just parts?
		
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If that was to me, then it was installed.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Greg how do you mean there own calculations. When I had my panels
Fitted, I was led to believe the generating figures were not down to each individual company but national figures that every company used.
		
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The figures are indeed the figures. They had some calculator going as they asked me loads of questions about usage, heating system, house size, rooms usage, kitchen appliances etc before they calculated the ideal output for my property, then took the roof images from google earth and did angle and slope calculations to decipher how much roof would be “usable” and for the full capable system, I just didn’t have the room.


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

And that gentlemen is how you have a civilised conversation with no bickering, ranting or name calling.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			The figures are indeed the figures. They had some calculator going as they asked me loads of questions about usage, heating system, house size, rooms usage, kitchen appliances etc before they calculated the ideal output for my property, then took the roof images from google earth and did angle and slope calculations to decipher how much roof would be “usable” and for the full capable system, I just didn’t have the room.
		
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Which company did you use, was it a local company, Ave spoken to Missis T about batteries. Had a Google and my head is spinning.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Which company did you use, was it a local company, Ave spoken to Missis T about batteries. Had a Google and my head is spinning.
		
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It was the company Bob linked in the convo. UPS Solar, not local but do installs nationwide by all accounts (possibly sub contractor usage). They were quite thorough in what they asked. 

Batteries bought “standalone” are priced much higher than is you take the install “special offer”. Like getting Supagard on a new car after you’ve picked it up.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

@GreiginFife been pricing up a telsa powerwall 2 install 

Just under 10k.. that's just a battery with load control and no panels 

13.5 usable battery

By the calculations of My actual usage by time I use 14kw a day outside the cheap times.. so could be viable to install ...charge when the grid is low usage and run my house off grid during the day 

The output is 3.5kw tho so roughly 15amp can be pulled around the house at once 

That said my high load pull at a given time ATM is 13 amp so not too impossible .. 

You can with permission take it up to 5kw output which is 20amps which would be good 

Usable for sure

My most usage is overnight with the car so charge both battieres at once


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2021)

Picked up on the story where the government has said that from next year, every new house should have an electric charging point. I cannot help but think its A half arsed job. Why do all new builds not have solar fitted as well. And am sure there’s other things could and should be the norm.


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## stefanovic (Nov 23, 2021)

Watched this one last night and a long way off.
The Truth about Electric Cars: Dispatches - All 4 (channel4.com)


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## Neilds (Nov 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Picked up on the story where the government has said that from next year, every new house should have an electric charging point. I cannot help but think its A half arsed job. Why do all new builds not have solar fitted as well. And am sure there’s other things could and should be the norm.
		
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Good idea in principle but pushes the price of new builds up and no one can get on the housing ladder. Builders are ‘supposed’ to build a certain amount of affordable houses per development but couldn’t do this if every house had panels, heat pumps, car chargers, etc


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 23, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Good idea in principle but pushes the price of new builds up and no one can get on the housing ladder. Builders are ‘supposed’ to build a certain amount of affordable houses per development but couldn’t do this if every house had panels, heat pumps, car chargers, etc
		
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Have you seen the profits the big house builders are making right now? Also, factor in that if Persimmon, Barratts etc are buying these products their purchasing power is huge and should keep costs down. Better to add these items at the build stage than after the event. It soon becomes part and parcel of the build, a bit like double glazing became standard instead of single glazing.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Picked up on the story where the government has said that from next year, every new house should have an electric charging point. I cannot help but think its A half arsed job. Why do all new builds not have solar fitted as well. And am sure there’s other things could and should be the norm.
		
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Scottish Government has been "encouraging" house builders to include energy saving measures like Solar since 2015. Pretty much all new builds around here since then have panels installed on the roof. The size and efficiency of the panels varies, obviously, but it's a bit of a start. 

I have an on-site assessment and quote booked for Thursday to understand more about how it will and won't work for me.


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## cliveb (Nov 23, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Pretty much all new builds around here since then have panels installed on the roof.
		
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Just to make sure I've understood properly.
You're saying that new builds around your way have traditional tiles and then solar panels on top, installed by the builders?
Why would they do that, when solar PV roofing tiles are readily available?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 23, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Just to make sure I've understood properly.
You're saying that new builds around your way have traditional tiles and then solar panels on top, installed by the builders?
Why would they do that, when solar PV roofing tiles are readily available?
		
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I haven't inspected them up close so no, I am not saying that. I am saying that they have solar panels on the roof. The mechanism of fixing to said roof is undetermined. 

To your second point, I suppose cost is a factor. If the tiles are more expensive why would you cut in to your margins?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Have you seen the profits the big house builders are making right now? Also, factor in that if Persimmon, Barratts etc are buying these products their purchasing power is huge and should keep costs down. Better to add these items at the build stage than after the event. It soon becomes part and parcel of the build, a bit like double glazing became standard instead of single glazing.
		
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Persimmon couldn't build a shed.

All these new builds are built using the lowest spec products they can get away with to meet base 'energy efficiency' criteria and maximise profits.

So while they are energy efficient they could be far more energy efficient......


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 23, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Persimmon couldn't build a shed.

All these new builds are built using the lowest spec products they can get away with to meet base 'energy efficiency' criteria and maximise profits.

So while they are energy efficient they could be far more energy efficient......
		
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They are awful, totally agree. Sadly, they are the ones building more big estates in my area than any other house builder. On the town FB page you get a post coming up saying 'anyone having problems with their Persimmon home on X estate' and quickly a reply will come up with a dedicated page for people and their lengthy problems. Every one they have built has a problem site. They are the Ryanair of housing but like Ryanir people still use them and then get surprised when they have problems.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They are awful, totally agree. Sadly, they are the ones building more big estates in my area than any other house builder. On the town FB page you get a post coming up saying 'anyone having problems with their Persimmon home on X estate' and quickly a reply will come up with a dedicated page for people and their lengthy problems. Every one they have built has a problem site. They are the Ryanair of housing but like Ryanir people still use them and then get surprised when they have problems.
		
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Sadly they are not the only house builder churning out low quality homes.

Quite happy living in my 1930's built end terrace. Front of the house is north facing and is freezing but it will still be here in 100 years.


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## fundy (Nov 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They are awful, totally agree. Sadly, they are the ones building more big estates in my area than any other house builder. On the town FB page you get a post coming up saying 'anyone having problems with their Persimmon home on X estate' and quickly a reply will come up with a dedicated page for people and their lengthy problems. Every one they have built has a problem site. They are the Ryanair of housing but like Ryanir people still use them and then get surprised when they have problems.
		
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used to be regional FD for volume house builders, the biggest determinant on the quality of the house you get is how good the site manager is. All the big boys are using the same suppliers, products and trades in the main, used to drive me crazy when company didnt want to pay site managers more money, the additional costs in customer care and putting things right, contractor disputes etc was astronomical, not to mention the amount of it that came across my desk!!!! cant say i miss it lol

Tells you a lot when the build cost for a Housing Association property is higher than for the same private sale property!


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## cliveb (Nov 23, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			To your second point, I suppose cost is a factor. If the tiles are more expensive why would you cut in to your margins?
		
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Fair point I guess. One price point I've seen for PV slates is about £8000 for 4kW, which of course is far higher than panels.


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## larmen (Jan 3, 2022)

In a move to keep the heat in the house we are thinking about the loft. We opened the hatch for the 1st time in a while and we found the attached.

For me it looked like some squashed insulation of some kind. Is that something we can just scoop out and replace with new one? Would some rolls of rock wool be best, or some foam which is already panelled? Would we need a vapour barrier under (or over?) it? I am not sure there is one below this, I haven’t actually touched any of it yet.
And what about cabling running through it? We have about 15 lamps in the top floor including spot light, I don’t think they are covered in the roof space. I saw something about wind sealing on youtube, I guess we would need to cover them with those upside down buckets? Surely we must keep it all accessible?

There is some plastic tank in the loft but I think it might not be connected (or used) for anything anymore.
Towards the actual roof there is some kind of membrane between the joist and the roof tiles which looks promising.

Any pointers on how/where to start would be nice.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2022)

I would not try to remove the existing (It’s a horrible job) just get some rolls of rock wool and roll them crossways over the top of the existing. Don’t worry about existing cables or non spotlight fittings they will not be bothered by the extra insulation however spotlights depending on the type should be covered with a fire hood like this……

https://www.toolstation.com/intumes...HGIQS-R34yMEeSnfaJcaAj4xEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Do not cover them with insulation though.

You can ignore any redundant tanks and fit insulation underneath them but if a tank is in use you should not insulate under it as there is a risk of freezing. 

Handy guide here…..

https://www.insulationsuperstore.co...l-loft-insulation/#loft-insulation-in-rafters


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