# F1 2021



## SaintHacker (Feb 15, 2021)

New season starts here with Mclaren launching their new car tonight. Expect to see them on the podium a lot more this season now they have a decent power unit.


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## Paperboy (Feb 15, 2021)

Looking forward too seeing how Norris does against Ricciardo, hope they both do well.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2021)

The sprint races, on Saturday, sound an interesting idea...

Will be disappointed if McLaren don't have one of their better seasons... Seeing Danny, on the podium, is always a delight...


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## USER1999 (Feb 15, 2021)

Seems to be powered by Coca-Cola.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 16, 2021)

Fantastic - I get to post the first comment of the season about Lewis Hamilton being a nob


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 16, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Fantastic - I get to post the first comment of the season about Lewis Hamilton being a nob   

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Says more about you than it does him. 🙄


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## bobmac (Feb 16, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Fantastic - I get to post the first comment of the season about Lewis Hamilton being a nob   

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As long as Angela Cullen is back, I don't care


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 16, 2021)

I do like Ricciardo - he came across really well in the Netflix documentaries on F1.  Seems a real character.
I'm still playing F1 2017 on the PS4 and have just upgraded the difficulty rating.  Don't think I'll be World Champion in a Haas this time round.
I have been watching some of the old season reviews on YouTube over the winter but I still prefer IndyCar to F1 because more happens in every race.


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2021)

I like the sound of the new suggestions.....qualifying on Friday for mini race and qually 2 on Saturday and the main race on Sunday.


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## jim8flog (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Seems to be powered by Coca-Cola.
		
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 no it's splunk the engine is at the back


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## Smiffy (Feb 18, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I do like Ricciardo - he came across really well in the Netflix documentaries on F1.  Seems a real character.
		
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He does. I just get fed up with him keep mentioning how good looking he thinks he is.
I've got news for him....


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2021)

Missed a trick with their sponsor I think


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## bobmac (Feb 18, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			He does. I just get fed up with him keep mentioning how good looking he thinks he is.
I've got news for him....


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Thank you Brad Pitt


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## Smiffy (Feb 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Thank you Brad Pitt
		
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You're welcome, William Pitt (the elder)
😂😂😂


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 18, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			You're welcome, William Pitt (the elder)
😂😂😂
		
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Think you need to dig a pit ....


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## bobmac (Feb 18, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			You're welcome, William Pitt (the elder)
😂😂😂
		
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## SaintHacker (Feb 23, 2021)

First look at the new Red Bull


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## srixon 1 (Feb 23, 2021)

Whilst it was finally good to get my gall stones and gall bladder removed yesterday, the pain today is horrendous. Hopefully it will ease off in the next couple of days. I never realised that you use your abs when peeing.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 23, 2021)

srixon 1 said:



			Whilst it was finally good to get my gall stones and gall bladder removed yesterday, the pain today is horrendous. Hopefully it will ease off in the next couple of days. I never realised that you use your abs when peeing.
		
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WHilst I'm glad to hear you're on the mend, I think you might be on the wrong thread!


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			WHilst I'm glad to hear you're on the mend, I think you might be on the wrong thread!

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Nope, definitely the right thread. They were using the Mercedes pit crew in the operating theatre. They wheeled him in to surgery and the surgeon had his gall bladder removed in 4.7 seconds.


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## srixon 1 (Feb 24, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			WHilst I'm glad to hear you're on the mend, I think you might be on the wrong thread!

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It was probably caused by the page jumping just as I touched it, or, too much of the liquid morphine. Should have been in random irritations 🤪


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## SaintHacker (Mar 5, 2021)

Tjink thats all the cars revealed now apart from ferarri (red) and Williams (white). I think the Aston Martin is the pick of the bunch, it looks stunning 👌


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Tjink thats all the cars revealed now apart from ferarri (red) and Williams (white). *I think the Aston Martin is the pick of the bunch, it looks stunning 👌*

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No surprise though it is quite close, in looks, to the Mercedes as it uses a good deal of the same components... Use the same wind tunnel as well... All down to SV to show he's not lost 'it'...


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## Smiffy (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I think the Aston Martin is the pick of the bunch, it looks stunning 👌
		
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Just a shame it's not an Aston Martin.
I reckon my fishing rod has got more Aston Martin in it
🥺🥺🥺


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

Liking the new livery for Williams... Also, the bold blue Alpine looks quite striking...


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Tjink thats all the cars revealed now apart from ferarri (red) and Williams (white). I think the Aston Martin is the pick of the bunch, it looks stunning 👌
		
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I prefer the look of the Alpine cars, although the Aston Martin does look very good.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 7, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Just a shame it's not an Aston Martin.
I reckon my fishing rod has got more Aston Martin in it
🥺🥺🥺
		
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Why is it not Aston Martin? 

They're hardly going to try and race a DB11 are they


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## Smiffy (Mar 9, 2021)

Just over two weeks to go to the first race of the season.
I'd love to see both McClaren and "Aston Martin" pose a serious threat to Merc & Red Bull, and to see Williams hopefully (!!) improve a bit on the last few seasons.
I wonder if Alonso will get a podium finish under "normal" circumstances, (i.e. no rain or safety car debacles).


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## SteveW86 (Mar 9, 2021)

Looks like season 3 of drive to survive will be interesting!


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## bobmac (Mar 9, 2021)

It's certainly looking to be more competitive than recent seasons


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## MegaSteve (Mar 9, 2021)

I genuinely believe AM have made a huge error signing a has been...
When, with a bit of negotiation, they could've probably signed George Russell a driver with HUGE potential...


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## ger147 (Mar 9, 2021)

Aston Martin's best chance of being at the front this season...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 9, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I genuinely believe AM have made a huge error signing a has been...
When, with a bit of negotiation, they could've probably signed George Russell a driver with HUGE potential...
		
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Why would Merc let him go though? He'll almost certainly be at Merc next season


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## MegaSteve (Mar 9, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Why would Merc let him go though? He'll almost certainly be at Merc next season
		
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AM are very much beholding to Mercedes IMHO... And, a 1 or 2 season contract could've well been possible as Toto is [I believe] George's manager...


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## ger147 (Mar 9, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Why would Merc let him go though? He'll almost certainly be at Merc next season
		
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Mercedes contract expires at the end of 2021.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2021)

Whilst I acknowledge pre-season testing 'results' can be notoriously misleading...
There appears to be a few indicators that there may be a change in the status quo to look forward to this year...


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## Beedee (Mar 15, 2021)

I think it's far too early to herald a changing of the guard.  Mercedes were poor on the very very low grip track last year (Turkey was it?), and the test was definitely low grip.

Also, iirc, Mercedes pre-season tests last year were pretty unremarkable.  And then the first race happened.

It would be nice to see a challenge to them, but I think that will have to wait until next year.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2021)

Beedee said:



			I think it's far too early to herald a changing of the guard.  Mercedes were poor on the very very low grip track last year (Turkey was it?), and the test was definitely low grip.

Also, iirc, Mercedes pre-season tests last year were pretty unremarkable.  And then the first race happened.

It would be nice to see a challenge to them, but I think that will have to wait until next year.
		
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Yep... Mercedes are past masters of 'rabbit out of the hat' surprises...
Preferably hoping we see a bit/lot more challenges for the podium going forward...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 15, 2021)

I'm pretty sure Merc will dominate again but the midfield looks like itbhas really tightened up, could be 6 teams battling it out for the minor podium spots


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## ger147 (Mar 15, 2021)

I'm tipping Red Bull to be at the front at the 1st GP in Bahrain. Anything can happen over a GP weekend of course but I think Red Bull have the fastest car at the moment.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2021)

Mclaren seem to have found a 'loophole' with regard the new diffuser regs... 
Suspect everyone else will be either be copying or whinging...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 20, 2021)

Just finished bingeing series 3 of Drive to Survive. Good job they dont have a bleep machine,  it wouldn't last long!😂😂


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## jim8flog (Mar 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Just finished bingeing series 3 of Drive to Survive. Good job they dont have a bleep machine,  it wouldn't last long!😂😂
		
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 I have been watching this, very good. really insightful.

I agree about some of the verbal content had me thinking who is worse a football manager or a F1 team manager. You do not hear any of that on the race coverage no wonder you do not hear a lot of the team radio messages.


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## Smiffy (Mar 27, 2021)

Not long now until the first quali of the season.
Really interested to see how Sainz, Checo, Riciardo and Vettel do for their new teams. 
Can't wait
😁😁😁😁😁


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## ger147 (Mar 27, 2021)

Verstappen just smashed Hammy for pole, 0.4 seconds clear. Deffo game on for this season, hopefully will run all year and be a classic.


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## Smiffy (Mar 27, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Verstappen just smashed Hammy for pole, 0.4 seconds clear. Deffo game on for this season, hopefully will run all year and be a classic.
		
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Definitely a little more exciting with the new driver/car combinations. Gasley did brilliantly, roll on the race.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 28, 2021)

The three series of "Drive to Survive" has re-evoked some interest in F1 for me.   I would like to see Ricciardo do well because he is just such a character and always had a soft spot for McLaren since I used to work for the Surrey Advertiser in the 1980s and spent some time at their original base in Woking town center.  And of course, Hamilton to have a ton of things go wrong so he can carry on whining like a spoilt child and blaming his colour for any decision that goes against him.     Also thought Christian Horner came across really well throughout and he did pull a Spice Girl.


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## Smiffy (Mar 28, 2021)

I don't mind Hamilton, I don't think he whinges any more than any of the other top drivers.
But I watched him in an interview the other night and I can't work out for the life of me why he was wearing two strings of pearls around his neck.
I'm all for individuality, but pearl necklaces don't really go with the image of a racing driver.
Would Senna, Mansell, Prost or Lauder have worn them???
😱😱😱😱😱


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## HampshireHog (Mar 28, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I don't mind Hamilton, I don't think he whinges any more than any of the other top drivers.
But I watched him in an interview the other night and I can't work out for the life of me why he was wearing two strings of pearls around his neck.
I'm all for individuality, but pearl necklaces don't really go with the image of a racing driver.
Would Senna, Mansell, Prost or Lauder have worn them???
😱😱😱😱😱
		
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I’m all for individuality as long as it conforms to my preconceptions of what a racing driver looks like 😂😂😂


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## USER1999 (Mar 28, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I don't mind Hamilton, I don't think he whinges any more than any of the other top drivers.
But I watched him in an interview the other night and I can't work out for the life of me why he was wearing two strings of pearls around his neck.
I'm all for individuality, but pearl necklaces don't really go with the image of a racing driver.
Would Senna, Mansell, Prost or Lauder have worn them???
😱😱😱😱😱
		
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Is there any evidence that the afore mentioned drivers didn't wear ladies underwear?


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## Smiffy (Mar 28, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			I’m all for individuality as long as it conforms to my preconceptions of what a racing driver looks like 😂😂😂
		
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There's individuality and there's downright weird
🤔🤔🤔


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## ger147 (Mar 28, 2021)




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## Slab (Mar 28, 2021)

What a disaster of a format... 
Back to moto gp for the moto 2 start


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## ger147 (Mar 28, 2021)

Brilliant drive from Hamilton, managing to hold off Max at the end for the win.


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## SteveW86 (Mar 28, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Brilliant drive from Hamilton, managing to hold off Max at the end for the win.
		
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I haven’t seen, but did Max get told to hand the place back by his team or the FIA?


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## USER1999 (Mar 28, 2021)

Good drive from Hamilton.

Didn't have the best car, but wrangled a win. He isn't a 7 time champion for nothing.


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## ger147 (Mar 28, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			I haven’t seen, but did Max get told to hand the place back by his team or the FIA?
		
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Race control told Red Bull to tell him to hand it back. Open and shut case, Hamilton didn't force him wide and he completed the overtake by going off track.


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## jim8flog (Mar 28, 2021)

Just love the new nick name for Mazepin

If I heard correctly 
Hasaspin


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## jim8flog (Mar 28, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The three series of "Drive to Survive" has re-evoked some interest in F1 for me.   I would like to see Ricciardo do well because he is just such a character and always had a soft spot for McLaren since I used to work for the Surrey Advertiser in the 1980s and spent some time at their original base in Woking town center.  And of course, Hamilton to have a ton of things go wrong so he can carry on whining like a spoilt child and blaming his colour for any decision that goes against him.     Also thought Christian Horner came across really well throughout and he did pull a Spice Girl.
		
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 I used to live just down the road from the Maybury Road works. Look at the size of the place they went to on Sheerwater in comparison although I now believe they are somewhere near Fairoaks. ( I moved away in the late 70s).


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## SaintHacker (Mar 28, 2021)

Great race start to finish. Verstappen proving again thatbhe is too hot headed/inexperienced to win a championship yet. Lewis on the back foot the whole way but pulled it out when it mattered. One thing is for sure though whoever wins this year wont be winning it in Mexico!



Smiffy said:



			I don't mind Hamilton, I don't think he whinges any more than any of the other top drivers.
But I watched him in an interview the other night and I can't work out for the life of me why he was wearing two strings of pearls around his neck.
I'm all for individuality, but pearl necklaces don't really go with the image of a racing driver.
Would Senna, Mansell, Prost or Lauder have worn them???
😱😱😱😱😱
		
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Reckon James Hunt might have given a few out during his time 😉😂


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 28, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I used to live just down the road from the Maybury Road works. Look at the size of the place they went to on Sheerwater in comparison although I now believe they are somewhere near Fairoaks. ( I moved away in the late 70s).
		
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I only moved away last month.   I was down there once doing a feature on Nick Phipps who was a GB Bobsleigh driver who used McLaren to build his sled.  Walked in and Niki Lauda was answering the reception phones - he had lost a bet over a Grand Prix and had to do an hour there.   Wasn't allowed to write about it at the time but everyone in the factory came out to see it.  Apparently the reception girls made him get them teas as well.  The new McLaren base is a mile up the road towards Chertsey and is massive.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 18, 2021)

Well this could be interesting. Absolutely hosing it down at tamburello while the rest of the track is bone dry. Mazepin might not even make it to the grid!😂


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## BiMGuy (Apr 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Well this could be interesting. Absolutely hosing it down at tamburello while the rest of the track is bone dry. Mazepin might not even make it to the grid!😂
		
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Alonso almost didn't. 
Aston Martin breaks on fire.
This could be absolute carnage. Love a variable weather race.


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## Smiffy (Apr 18, 2021)

Looking forward to it. Go Lando, go!!


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## SaintHacker (Apr 18, 2021)

Wow. 😳


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## BiMGuy (Apr 18, 2021)

Cracking race.

Nice to see Mclaren getting back to the sharp end.


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## bobmac (May 10, 2021)

Valtteri Bottas, oops


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## SaintHacker (May 10, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Valtteri Bottas, oops
		
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He's on his way out and he knows it,  can't see him doing anyone any favours this season


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## bobmac (May 10, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			He's on his way out and he knows it,  can't see him doing anyone any favours this season
		
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If he lasts the season.
Maybe he wants to get 'released from his contract', that could be worth a few Euros.


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## Paperboy (May 10, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If he lasts the season.
Maybe he wants to get 'released from his contract', that could be worth a few Euros.
		
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But how much will it cost them to get Russell out of the remainder of his year at Williams?


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## theoneandonly (May 10, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			But how much will it cost them to get Russell out of the remainder of his year at Williams?
		
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Nothing I would think, Russel is already a Mercedes driver. 
Send Bottas the other way, there has already been rumours about it.


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## Paperboy (May 10, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Nothing I would think, Russel is already a Mercedes driver.
Send Bottas the other way, there has already been rumours about it.
		
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They had to pay last year for 1 race, he's tied into a contract for the season, it definitely won't be nothing.


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## ger147 (May 10, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If he lasts the season.
Maybe he wants to get 'released from his contract', that could be worth a few Euros.
		
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Bottas is going nowhere until the end of the season. Lewis is going for number 8 and he LOVES having Bottas in the other car.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 14, 2021)




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## Beedee (May 23, 2021)

Wow.  Even by Monaco's standards that was dull.

I know it'll never happen but I so wish Monaco was permanently removed the calendar.  Spending the whole race hoping that someone crashes just so that something happens is wrong.


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2021)

Total snoozfest start to finish


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## Bunkermagnet (May 23, 2021)

Beedee said:



			Wow.  Even by Monaco's standards that was dull.

I know it'll never happen but I so wish Monaco was permanently removed the calendar.  Spending the whole race hoping that someone crashes just so that something happens is wrong.
		
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I have stopped taking interest in Monaco a long time ago. I agree it should be removed from the calender, if for nothing more than the danger exiting the pits creates. The only way Monaco would work is it they made all the teams enter a go-kart for the race instead of the current cars.


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## BiMGuy (May 23, 2021)

Monaco needs dropping from F1, and has done now for a long time.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 24, 2021)

I watched the highlights on YouTube - when they show the start and the first few corners, then jump to a pitstop on lap 30, then you have a problem.


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## bobmac (May 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Monaco needs dropping from F1, and has done now for a long time.
		
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The drivers seem to love it, probably because most of them can walk to work.


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## Kennysarmy (May 24, 2021)

There was a Grand Prix? I fell asleep on the sofa...


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## jim8flog (May 24, 2021)

The Monaco grand prix is never likely to be dropped simply because it is where the money is and there is no better place to schmooze the sponsors.

For me I watched the first and the last 10 minutes.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 24, 2021)

It's a track I cannot handle on F1 20 on the PS4.   I just simulate the entire weekend.   I have trouble with the likes of Azerbaijan and Singapore but I just cannot even get within two seconds of the slowest other car at Monaco.    And yet I've just finished runner-up to Bottas through a full season in my own team.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

Obviously glad Max isn't hurt, however can't help but think thats a bit if karma right there, Checo should be winning this race in his own right had RB not held him up in the pits


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## BiMGuy (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Obviously glad Max isn't hurt, however can't help but think thats a bit if karma right there, Checo should be winning this race in his own right had RB not held him up in the pits
		
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Cracking race though. 

I said to the boy, I bet Perez has a sticky pit stop. And shock horror it wasnjust slow enough to put him back out between Max and Lewis.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Cracking race though.

I said to the boy, I bet Perez has a sticky pit stop. And shock horror it wasnjust slow enough to put him back out between Max and Lewis.
		
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And then Horner tries to blame it on Checo not hitting his marks! Rubbish, it does not take the fastest crew in the pits over two seconds to readjust. The man is a complete nut


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 6, 2021)

Reasons for Lewis Hamilton over-shooting the first corner at the re-start:-

1.   The brakes did not work properly.
2.   The pit crew put the wrong brakes/tyres on.
3.   The pit crew put me on the wrong strategy.
4.   Someone hit me.
5.   It's because I'm black.

Reason it really happened 

1.  I screwed up.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 6, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Reasons for Lewis Hamilton over-shooting the first corner at the re-start:-

1.   The brakes did not work properly.
2.   The pit crew put the wrong brakes/tyres on.
3.   The pit crew put me on the wrong strategy.
4.   Someone hit me.
5.   It's because I'm black.

Reason it really happened 

1.  I screwed up.
		
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Surely that's a post for the laughter is the best medicine thread. Because it is about as funny as everything posted in there. #yawn


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Reasons for Lewis Hamilton over-shooting the first corner at the re-start:-

1.   The brakes did not work properly.
2.   The pit crew put the wrong brakes/tyres on.
3.   The pit crew put me on the wrong strategy.
4.   Someone hit me.
*5.   It's because I'm black.*

Reason it really happened

1.  I screwed up.
		
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If it’s supposed to be funny it’s failed on all accounts


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## Imurg (Jun 6, 2021)

It seems the reason LH messed up the restart was because he accidentally flicked a switch that TURNS THE BRAKES OFF........
And the reason for having this switch is....?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 6, 2021)

Imurg said:



			It seems the reason LH messed up the restart was because he accidentally flicked a switch that TURNS THE BRAKES OFF........
And the reason for having this switch is....?

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It was the switch that engages the settings used to warm up the tyres on the formation lap. Funnily enough called break magic 😂


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## jim8flog (Jun 6, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Reasons for Lewis Hamilton over-shooting the first corner at the re-start:-

1.   The brakes did not work properly.
2.   The pit crew put the wrong brakes/tyres on.
3.   The pit crew put me on the wrong strategy.
4.   Someone hit me.
5.   It's because I'm black.

Reason it really happened

1.  I screwed up.
		
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 It was as he said on the radio - his fault and apologised to the crew.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

Imurg said:



			It seems the reason LH messed up the restart was because he accidentally flicked a switch that TURNS THE BRAKES OFF........
And the reason for having this switch is....?

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Its a switch used to put all the braking effort into the front wheels to get them warmed up, hence the smoking brakes on the line. Unfortunately the silly sod forgot to turn it off🤣


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## cliveb (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Its a switch used to put all the braking effort into the front wheels to get them warmed up, hence the smoking brakes on the line. Unfortunately the silly sod forgot to turn it off🤣
		
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He turned it off, but then accidentally knocked it back on when jinking away from Perez when Checo moved over to defend his position.

The main thing I take from the race is that Bottas now seems to have had his spirit broken.


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## Pants (Jun 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Surely that's a post for the laughter is the best medicine thread. *Because it is about as funny as everything posted in there. *#yawn
		
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So why do you bother to carry on reading that thread then (unless of course you like reading unfunny things )


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2021)

Pants said:



			So why do you bother to carry on reading that thread then (unless of course you like reading unfunny things )
		
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To see if anything that is actually funny is posted.


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## Beedee (Jul 18, 2021)

So were the stewards correct today?

For me, I thought the decision was harsh.  I thought racing incident, especially as it was the first lap.  One could have been a bit closer to the apex, the other could have turned in less aggressively. 

I thought the stewards had announced they were going to allow more wheel to wheel racing, but last time out and today seems to point against that.  There's little enough overtaking without the drivers fearing being penalised.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

Beedee said:



			So were the stewards correct today?

For me, I thought the decision was harsh.  I thought racing incident, especially as it was the first lap.  One could have been a bit closer to the apex, the other could have turned in less aggressively.

I thought the stewards had announced they were going to allow more wheel to wheel racing, but last time out and today seems to point against that.  There's little enough overtaking without the drivers fearing being penalised.
		
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Well by knocking out his main rival it allowed him to win the race - guess it will make the season a bit more interesting now


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## Tashyboy (Jul 18, 2021)

Beedee said:



			So were the stewards correct today?

For me, I thought the decision was harsh.  I thought racing incident, especially as it was the first lap.  One could have been a bit closer to the apex, the other could have turned in less aggressively.

I thought the stewards had announced they were going to allow more wheel to wheel racing, but last time out and today seems to point against that.  There's little enough overtaking without the drivers fearing being penalised.
		
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To be honest I was on the edge of my seat watching it, ( first time this season), it was fantastic to see. Am not a Hamilton lover but I thought it was 100% a racing incident in which no one was to solely blame. But they were both to blame. It could so easily of been Hamilton who went off. 
gutted for verstappen, but he is now saying Hamilton is being disrespectful and should apologise.For wha.


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## Beezerk (Jul 18, 2021)

Beedee said:



			So were the stewards correct today?

For me, I thought the decision was harsh.  I thought racing incident, especially as it was the first lap.  One could have been a bit closer to the apex, the other could have turned in less aggressively.

I thought the stewards had announced they were going to allow more wheel to wheel racing, but last time out and today seems to point against that.  There's little enough overtaking without the drivers fearing being penalised.
		
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I saw the analysis at the end of the race, the fella who was doing it got it spot on, Verstappen steered hard right just before impact, he looked to be trying to cut across Hamilton before the corner. It also showed Verstappen pulling off the same move Hamilton did in a few races already this year but Hamilton conceded the corner each time.
Wrong decision for me but thankfully both drivers came through unscathed.


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2021)

Verstappen turned into Hamilton. Maybe he was trying to make Hamilton brake, as he had done twice already on the lap. Hamilton could have been tighter to the apex, and Verstappen could have not turned in so aggressively. 50/50.


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## Beedee (Jul 18, 2021)

I don't think Red Bull are coming out of it terribly well.  Obviously they're disappointed and concerned for Max, and their budgets, but the whinging is just too hypocritical.  All the times Max has been aggressive are fine.  Last race Perez ran one car off the track, and punted another off the track, and that was fine too apparently.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 18, 2021)

I thought JV showed his intent moving more than once when LH was trying to get past earlier in the lap. I thought the pnealty harsh, but then I don't expect anything less.


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## bobmac (Jul 19, 2021)

What annoyed me was 2 people from Red Bull said LH was wrong because he ''stuck a wheel up the inside''
Were we watching the same race?


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## Reemul (Jul 19, 2021)

It was a racing incident but in the last race Norris got a penalty and Perez got 2 of them for exactly the same thing so Hamilton needed a Penalty but it was always irrelevant as he was at the front and was always going to go on and win the race. Apparently  during the race the commentators said this is new for this year and incidents like this will be given penalties so I am assuming whoever gets away with it will get the penalty.

I am a Verstappen fan and feel he should have given way as all the way up to the crash Lewis had him it was just a matter of when and 2nd is better than last.

Still it is tribal, all the Hamilton fans saying he did nothing wrong and the same with the Verstappen fans. The sky footage clearly shows Verstappen moved the wheel to the left to give Hamilton the room and of course he turned right sharply, you have to at 185mph, it's not a driving Miss Daisy corner, Lewis quite rightly does not want to turn in sharply as he is on the inside and loses speed drastically which would have allowed Verstappen to get away from him. To be fair to both of them it was only a hit by around 12 inches. The thing I ask myself on all of these incidents is if they were reversed what they be saying then and in all honesty they would both be reacting in the same way. Racing incident, suck it up, learn from it and on to the next race.

I was embarrassed by both the behaviour of Red Bull and Mercedes, like little children, he did this, no he did that...Jesus no wonder the drivers are like they are if the bosses are like this, Helmut Markle saying he should have a race ban, Toto saying I sent you an email and I am following up with a phone call to guy who is not a steward anyways.


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## Smiffy (Jul 19, 2021)

Christian Horner is a right whinge bag
🤬🤬🤬🤬


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## BiMGuy (Jul 19, 2021)

The stewards have been giving penalties based on the outcome of incidents, not the cause of them for a few seasons. 

Max was driving like a bit of a knob beforehand and being his usual aggressive self. Today Lewis decided he wasn't backing out. 

All of the analysis I've seen post race would suggest Max was more at fault. 

You would hope Max would learn from this. But Horner, Dr Evil and Jos will be telling Max it was all Lewis's fault and he's beennhard done by. I fully expect Max to do something stupid at the next race. 

Horner has out done himself with his comments post race. In what is clearly a scripted message in an attempt to influence future decisions.


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## cliveb (Jul 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What annoyed me was 2 people from Red Bull said LH was wrong because he ''stuck a wheel up the inside''
Were we watching the same race?

View attachment 37615

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You've kind of cherry-picked that photo. Yes, Lewis was almost alongside, but only for about 1/10th sec, if that. Then he understeered towards Max while Max was very aggressively taking the racing line. Racing incident for me, but the penalty was to be expected.

Horner is living in cloud cuckoo land if he believes that there are places on circuits where you're not allowed to try to overtake. Isn't one aspect of racing about trying to overtake wherever you can?


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## bobmac (Jul 19, 2021)

Maybe, but when Lewis realised that Max was going to turn in no matter what and possibly take them both out, he backed up to avoid a big shunt. Unfortunately he couldn't quite clear the back of Max's car completely before Max turned in. That's why Max's back wheel hit Lewis's front wheel.
If Max had turned in a second later, Lewis would have cleared the back of Max's car and there would have been no contact. The important thing is Max has been released from hospital and nobody was seriously hurt.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 19, 2021)

cliveb said:



			You've kind of cherry-picked that photo. Yes, Lewis was almost alongside, but only for about 1/10th sec, if that. Then he understeered towards Max while Max was very aggressively taking the racing line. Racing incident for me, but the penalty was to be expected.

Horner is living in cloud cuckoo land if he believes that there are places on circuits where you're not allowed to try to overtake. Isn't one aspect of racing about trying to overtake wherever you can?
		
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He obviously forgot LH took Leclerc on the same corner.
TBH I’m not at all surprised by the reaction from anyone to do with Red Bull. The have the demeanour of the new kids on the block with a shoe string budget  when they are in fact  exactly the opposite.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 19, 2021)

Horner is an embarrasment


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## bobmac (Jul 20, 2021)

I see Max claims Lewis disrespected him for celebrating wining his home grand prix on the podium while Max was still in hospital undergoing routine tests.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I see Max claims Lewis disrespected him for celebrating wining his home grand prix on the podium while Max was still in hospital undergoing routine tests. 

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I've lost what little respect for him I had after that comment. He's made a living so far from driving dangerously and aggresiveley, yet when he does it he brushes it off as 'racing', Someone gives him a bit of his own medecine and the toys come out.


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## ger147 (Jul 31, 2021)

Hamilton schooling both Red Bulls in Q3 quali today in Hungary, classic.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 31, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Hamilton schooling both Red Bulls in Q3 quali today in Hungary, classic.
		
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Horner took that surprisingly well, I expected him to be crying down the phone to the FIA about it


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## BiMGuy (Jul 31, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Hamilton schooling both Red Bulls in Q3 quali today in Hungary, classic.
		
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Redbull apear to have dropped the ball this weekend. Maybe they have spent too much of the last fortnight focusing on the wrong things. 

Half a second behind is a huge gap, considering the relative performance advantage they seemed to have. 

I did enjoy the games prior to the final run. Redbull only have themselves to blame that they didn't get a clear run.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 31, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Horner took that surprisingly well, I expected him to be crying down the phone to the FIA about it
		
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He knows they got it wrong, and would have done the same. Mercedes out laps were their fastest in qualifying, so Horner had absolutely nothing to complain about.


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## ger147 (Jul 31, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Horner took that surprisingly well, I expected him to be crying down the phone to the FIA about it
		
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There is a maximum time specified that you can take for an outlap and Hammy did just a few tenths inside the set time. They knew they'd been schooled so no point greetin' about it.


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## bobmac (Aug 1, 2021)

I just hope it's a nice clean race with Lewis disappearing into the distance and Max going out on the formation lap again


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## Smiffy (Aug 1, 2021)

Eventful race.
And how weird was it watching Hamilton roar away from the start  on his own!!
😱😱😱😱


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## GG26 (Aug 1, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Eventful race.
And how weird was it watching Hamilton roar away from the start  on his own!!
😱😱😱😱
		
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Strange wasn’t it.

I usually have the races on in the background whilst doing something else.  Today was one of the few where you couldn’t take your eyes off of it.


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## SteveW86 (Aug 1, 2021)

If he had gone into the pits with everyone else, wasn’t the Mercedes garage the first one, so he likely would have had to wait till everyone had passed before he could be realeased putting him near the back anyway?

Was a really strange situation. Thrilling watching Hamilton battle with Alonso.


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## Cherry13 (Aug 1, 2021)

Seb now disqualified for being unable to provide 1l fuel sample...


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## BiMGuy (Aug 1, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Eventful race.
And how weird was it watching Hamilton roar away from the start  on his own!!
😱😱😱😱
		
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One to remember for a pub quiz in a few years. 

It was a great race. Shame Seb has been DQd.


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## ger147 (Aug 1, 2021)

Mercedes Man of the Match to Bottas, took out both Red Bulls in the very first corner.

Horner will be extremely chuffed...

Great race, explains why Bernie Ecclestone once suggested artifically wetting the track every so often to liven things up. Maybe Bernie was on to something.


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## SaintHacker (Aug 1, 2021)

So pleased for George Russell and Williams to finally get some points


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## SaintHacker (Aug 1, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Horner will be extremely chuffed...

.
		
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Yep, showed his (lack of) class again today when Toto apologised after the race


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## Beedee (Aug 1, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Yep, showed his (lack of) class again today when Toto apologised after the race
		
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So wish I'd thought of this, but copied from another source ...

Red Bull gives you whinge.


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## ger147 (Aug 28, 2021)

Glad Norris is OK, that was a very big shunt. Shame as he had a genuine chance of pole in today's very tricky conditions.

If anyone is looking for any unique F1 memorabilia, there will be a McLaren F1 car in a skip at the back of the Spa circuit later today.


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## ger147 (Aug 28, 2021)

Amazing quali from Russell, front row beside Max in the Williams with Hamilton only 3rd.

They should deffo have more wet sessions, such a leveller.


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## Reemul (Aug 29, 2021)

Need a wet race today, could really mix things up


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## ger147 (Aug 29, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Need a wet race today, could really mix things up
		
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Forecast for today is the same as yesterday. Will be interesting to see how the teams cope with a wet track as most used up all their inter tyres in quali and could well need inters for the race but don't have any fresh sets left.


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## ger147 (Aug 29, 2021)

Currently pissing down, start delayed and Perez already out after crashing on his way from the pits to the grid.

Anyone could win this and if you like a bet, lump your mortgage money on a safety car at some point.


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## ger147 (Aug 29, 2021)

No-one seems to be clear what the rules are re. has the race started, do the 2 laps behind the safety car count towards anything, what the time limit is to complete the race etc., but still seriously pissing down with rain and I can't see any race laps in anger happening today.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 29, 2021)

Absolutely farcical!

Apparently trying to put on a race for the spectators but where is the spectacle in following the Safety Car?

It was obvious that the conditions were no better than when the original attempt was aborted.


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## ger147 (Aug 29, 2021)

Aye, a bit mental when the giys who run the race don't know their own rules. And what is the point of having an official result that is made up of 2 laps in the pishing rain behind the safety car at a pace I could keep up with in my diesel powered family saloon?


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## jim8flog (Aug 29, 2021)

Congratulations Max


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## ger147 (Aug 29, 2021)

George Russell jumping about like a kid on Xmas morning...🙈🙈


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## jim8flog (Aug 29, 2021)

That is one for the record books and pub quizzes -

In what year did all the drivers finish the race at Spa-Francorchamps


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## Reemul (Aug 29, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Aye, a bit mental when the giys who run the race don't know their own rules. And what is the point of having an official result that is made up of 2 laps in the pishing rain behind the safety car at a pace I could keep up with in my diesel powered family saloon?
		
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I am fine with them having 2 laps behind the safety car. It rewards those that did the business on Saturday in qualifying. Maybe it needs to be made clearer that if this happens again then this is what will happen so make sure you try your best in qualifying. You also cannot blame the drivers like Russell, they don't make the rules and the smaller teams get screwed over often enough by the big boys it was nice to see them benefitting for a change.

Russell needs a step up next season without a doubt.


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## ger147 (Aug 29, 2021)

Reemul said:



			I am fine with them having 2 laps behind the safety car. It rewards those that did the business on Saturday in qualifying. Maybe it needs to be made clearer that if this happens again then this is what will happen so make sure you try your best in qualifying. You also cannot blame the drivers like Russell, they don't make the rules and the smaller teams get screwed over often enough by the big boys it was nice to see them benefitting for a change.

Russell needs a step up next season without a doubt.
		
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They actually had 4 laps behind the safety car but the first 2 didn't count. They spent the thick end of 2 hours after the first 2 laps arguing/debating over whether the race had actually started or not. They finally decided it hadn't and then did another 2 laps so they could post a result.

Other opinions are available but IMO you don't deserve a "win" or a podium finish for managing not to crash in the pissing rain during quali the day before. Plenty of folk have done a great job in quali but end up with no points as only the race result counts, and there was no race today. If conditions mean you can't race then you don't race and you move on to next week.


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## Smiffy (Aug 30, 2021)

I see the "Hammy Haters" are again out in force....
He was disappointed that they didn't race, but completely understood the reasons why.
He made the comment that the attending fans ought be be refunded as they didn't get to see what they'd paid for. A theory echoed by about 99% of the public although impossible to do.
But no, it's suggested that he should pay them out of his own money.
I'm not fan of the way he dresses, the way he acts, but I don't hate him.
Some people are just so bitter.


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## Wilson (Aug 30, 2021)

Calling that a race yesterday, is a farce, giving out points, devalues the competition.


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## cliveb (Aug 30, 2021)

Yesterday was a farce, absolutely disgusting cynical move by the FIA.

If Max ends up winning the championship by less than 5 points, it will be a very hollow victory.


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## Midnight (Aug 30, 2021)

Afternoon all, my eldest would like to watch a GP live. Anyone been to the British one? Was it a good experience? How much did it cost? Any tips /advice?

Cheers

Midnight...


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## Reemul (Aug 30, 2021)

Midnight said:



			Afternoon all, my eldest would like to watch a GP live. Anyone been to the British one? Was it a good experience? How much did it cost? Any tips /advice?

Cheers

Midnight...
		
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I have been to a few, including Germany, Spain and the UK. Great for the crack and the weekend, not so great for the racing, see each car briefly for a few seconds times the number of laps. Rather watch it on the TV. It's as expensive as hell, a family of four for the whole weekend you are looking at a Grand or More depending on seats and sleeping arrangements. Even for a Sunday only for 4 of you looking at £600+


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2021)

Make a weekend of it with camping, and its great fun. Don't expect to get much sleep though. 

We usually camp, and I have been known to go a couple of days early to get a good pitch. 

We will watch pretty much anything race. So get value out of watching the support races along with the F1 for 3 days. Plus the evening entertainment. 

We always get grandstand seating so have somewhere to set up for the day and are guaranteed a decent view. 

All in, I think Silverstone costs us about £1500ish (family of 4 with seating at Club). Spa in 2019 was more due to chunnel costs. It would have been cheaper on the ferry, but I don't do boats. 

Next time it will probably be just me and the boy so should be cheaper. Unless we upgrade tickets or accommodation 😁

Going to Friday practice at Silverstone can be a good way of deciding whether or not you want to do a full weekend. Tickets are only about £70 for the day.


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## Smiffy (Aug 31, 2021)

Midnight said:



			Afternoon all, my eldest would like to watch a GP live. Anyone been to the British one? Was it a good experience? How much did it cost? Any tips /advice?
Cheers
Midnight...
		
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The wife and I went to Silverstone years ago. Based on that experience I'd never go again, although things might have changed nowadays.
It took us long enough to get in, but almost four hours to get out again was beyond a joke.


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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2021)

How many times have we heard drivers and team principles say ''no points on Saturday''
Driving around behind the safety car for 2 or 3 laps without being allowed to overtake is not a race and it's  ridiculous to award points for a race that never happened.


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## Smiffy (Aug 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many times have we heard drivers and team principles say ''no points on Saturday''
Driving around behind the safety car for 2 or 3 laps without being allowed to overtake is not a race and it's  ridiculous to award points for a race that never happened.
		
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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2021)

Smiffy said:



View attachment 38217

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I know.
Good to see Williams back in the running though.


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## Smiffy (Aug 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I know.
Good to see Williams back in the running though.
		
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It was nice that they picked up some points, and a great lap by Russell on Saturday. But if it had been dry it would have been the same old, same old I'm afraid.
Although they ARE having their best season for a good few years.


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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Although they ARE having their best season for a good few years.
		
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Is it a coincidence that things have picked up after the change in management?


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## Smiffy (Aug 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Is it a coincidence that things have picked up after the change in management?
		
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I think it's more to do with the money available now.
They can invest it where they needed to.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 31, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I think it's more to do with the money available now.
They can invest it where they needed to.
		
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And that is because of the change of management.


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## Smiffy (Aug 31, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			And that is because of the change of management.
		
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Owners.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 31, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Owners.
		
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Same thing 👍


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## Smiffy (Aug 31, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Same thing 👍
		
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I personally think that the previous management could have got there in the end, they just didn't have the resources


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## ger147 (Sep 1, 2021)

The latest whisperings are the Russell to Mercedes deal for 2022 is now signed. Bottss to Alfa to replace Raikkonen who is retiring and Giovinazzi also out at Alfa with a number of names in the frame to take the 2nd seat, one of whom is Nick de Vries. Alex Albon to come in and replace Russell at Williams.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 1, 2021)

Kimi retirement now official. Hope Sky offer him a contract commentating!


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## SaintHacker (Sep 1, 2021)

Midnight said:



			Afternoon all, my eldest would like to watch a GP live. Anyone been to the British one? Was it a good experience? How much did it cost? Any tips /advice?

Cheers

Midnight...
		
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I go every year mate mate with my lad, I'll pm you later when I've got a bit more time


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## Beedee (Sep 4, 2021)

So, tight twisty, but surprisingly quick track with lots of banking and lumpy bits.  Very limited opportunities to overtake.  Very unforgiving of mistakes.  And a long run down to the first corner.  Red flag at some stage tomorrow - probable.  Safety car at some stage tomorrow - virtually certain.

What's the chances of Max and Louis both making it to turn 2 with all wheels pointing forward?


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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2021)

Beedee said:



			So, tight twisty, but surprisingly quick track with lots of banking and lumpy bits.  Very limited opportunities to overtake.  Very unforgiving of mistakes.  And a long run down to the first corner.  Red flag at some stage tomorrow - probable.  Safety car at some stage tomorrow - virtually certain.

What's the chances of Max and Louis both making it to turn 2 with all wheels pointing forward?
		
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Quite a short run from the grid to T1 but deffo expect Hammy to do everything he can to find a way past on the first lap.


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## Reemul (Sep 5, 2021)

I think this could be a crash city race. For the top guys I would be aiming to get round and score decent points a bit take your medicine and move on. More to lose here I think


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## Cherry13 (Sep 5, 2021)

Reemul said:



			I think this could be a crash city race. For the top guys I would be aiming to get round and score decent points a bit take your medicine and move on. More to lose here I think
		
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Watched the formula 3 race yday and there was a bit of bumper cars the first 3 corners. Settled down after that though. 
I think if Lewis doesn’t get into the lead by turn 3 then Max just runs away with it, I think he was actually about 2 or 3 tenths quicker than Lewis but made a few mistakes on last lap. 
Turn 3 will be an interesting spot for some moves today, if anyone gets on the inside then expect they will wash out to right side of the track on exit forcing the other car to slow or be taken out, so I expect a few clashes there today.  Other than that it’s going to be ensuring you keep close on the last corner and getting a good run into one.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 5, 2021)

Well lets hope Nico Rosberg never gets to do another gridwalk...


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## ger147 (Sep 5, 2021)

Pretty uneventful race at the front and the expected outcome, but what an atmosphere!! Would deffo look at attending that race in person in the future.


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## jim8flog (Sep 5, 2021)

I was going to record and watch a later. I reckoned there would no overtaking - got that wrong.

Loved the comment from Jensen about the extra 2 years of Bottas' life after Vettel's spin.


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## Beedee (Sep 5, 2021)

Dull as a margarine sandwich with a glass of ditchwater on the side.  Some tracks need incidents to give an exciting race, and this is one of them.  

I must admit I'm extremely surprised we didn't get any incidents.  They were struggling to stay on the track for the first two days, and then only one yellow during the race.


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## ger147 (Sep 7, 2021)

Bottas to Alfa Romeo and Russell to Mercedes for 2022 both confirmed.


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## Beedee (Sep 7, 2021)

I wonder if they put any effort into trying to get Bottas to go to Williams. 

Strong rumours are that Albon will be getting the Williams seat. Williams get Merc engines and Albon is in the Red Bull drivers stable.  Can’t see Merc being happy with a customer team telling Red Bull all their engine secrets.


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## ger147 (Sep 7, 2021)

Beedee said:



			I wonder if they put any effort into trying to get Bottas to go to Williams. 

Strong rumours are that Albon will be getting the Williams seat. Williams get Merc engines and Albon is in the Red Bull drivers stable.  Can’t see Merc being happy with a customer team telling Red Bull all their engine secrets.
		
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Albon will not be allowed to join Williams unless Red Bull terminate their contract with Albon. That has already been stated openly by both Red Bull and Mercedes.


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## Cherry13 (Sep 7, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Albon will not be allowed to join Williams unless Red Bull terminate their contract with Albon. That has already been stated openly by both Red Bull and Mercedes.
		
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It’s a really poor situation all round, and indirectly the 3 main teams pretty much control 60% of the grid.  Toto is just trying to ensure that nick de vries gets a drive, and is using it as an excuse.  Albon won’t have access or be privy to any info that some of the worlds smartest engineers won’t be able to work out after 3 or 4 races.  It’s not like he’s going to be able to get ‘under the bonnet’ and start tinkering around. 

Mind, Horner isn’t faultless in this, he already has 4 seats available and now wants one of his stable to take another. If he’s so good then Horner could always offer up one of his 4 seats.


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## ger147 (Sep 8, 2021)

Albon confirmed as Russell's replacement at Williams for 2022.


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## jim8flog (Sep 12, 2021)

Redbull has got wings.

Trouble is it is Hamilton's wings


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## Captainron (Sep 12, 2021)

Racing incident. Not seen the like since Senna and Prost. Hope Max wins it this year.


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## Piece (Sep 12, 2021)

Pleased for McLaren, they had a fine race and looked nippy.

There was no room for Max at all. If it had been the other way around, Horner would have been spitting teeth. Damon Hill didn‘t hide what he thought either 😁


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## SaintHacker (Sep 12, 2021)

When Horner says its a racing incident he knows they're on sticky ground. Max should have bailed, just like Lewis had to do on lap 1


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## Beedee (Sep 12, 2021)

The stewards agree.  Max gets 3 place grid penalty for next race.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 12, 2021)

Max is very very lucky, he has massively got away with one there. When him and Lewis Collided the other week he was adamant he was half a car length ahead. This time he is not. He screwed up, not just that he did not even look to see if the other driver/ Lewis was ok. He is a tool.
A three place penalty in the next race is like fining a millionaire £5


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2021)

Verstappen, absolute tit.


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## ger147 (Sep 12, 2021)

Verstappen is an amazingly talented driver and super fast, probably the fastest over a single lap on the grid in 2021, but he's also a monumental eejit.

F1 is a very dangerous sport, it's only a matter of time until he's involved in an incident where he or a fellow driver is seriously hurt.

That was pure red mist after his pit stop was a disaster, you have to expect and indeed demand better from one of the best drivers in the world.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 12, 2021)

Another cracking race. Shame Lando didn't get the win instead of Ricardo. But nice to see McLaren back on the top step. 

Max once again proving he can't race cleanly. A 3 place grid penalty seems lenient for deliberately driving into another car. 

Maybe he will learn one day that he doesn't have the right to put his car wherever he wants and everyone else has to get out of the way.


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## ger147 (Sep 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Another cracking race. Shame Lando didn't get the win instead of Ricardo. But nice to see McLaren back on the top step. 

Max once again proving he can't race cleanly. A 3 place grid penalty seems lenient for deliberately driving into another car. 

Maybe he will learn one day that he doesn't have the right to put his car wherever he wants and everyone else has to get out of the way.
		
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He should get another 2 place penalty for artistic impression...🤣🤣


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## srixon 1 (Sep 12, 2021)

His biggest crime was not checking that Hamilton was OK after the incident. Maybe because he knew he had made a mistake.


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 13, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Verstappen is an amazingly talented driver and super fast, probably the fastest over a single lap on the grid in 2021, but he's also a monumental eejit.

F1 is a very dangerous sport, it's only a matter of time until he's involved in an incident where he or a fellow driver is seriously hurt.

That was pure red mist after his pit stop was a disaster, you have to expect and indeed demand better from one of the best drivers in the world.
		
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Yes, although those sausage kerbs need removing. What’s the point of them other than to cause dangerous situations? Verstappen should just have run out of road, maybe bumped tyres and one or other of them turned around, but bouncing over the kerb got him airborne


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## SaintHacker (Sep 13, 2021)

srixon 1 said:



			His biggest crime was not checking that Hamilton was OK after the incident. Maybe because he knew he had made a mistake.
		
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It was a bit naughty, but in fairness Lewis was trying to reverse his car out at the time!


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## bobmac (Sep 13, 2021)

For the last 6 years, Christian Horner has been making excuses for Max, he's young, he's learning, he's maturing, he's learned his lesson etc.
Clearly he isn't young any more and he obviously hasn't learned his lesson.

In 2015 in his first season he got his first F1 drive and when his team told him to let his team mate pass he shouted back NO and refused to follow team orders.





I wasn't impressed with his behaviour then and he's done nothing since to change my mind.
And has been mentioned already, the way he walked away from the crash showing no interest in Lewis's condition, shows the smug, self-importance of the man.
Like father like son.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 13, 2021)

Sadly he doesn't think his actions have consequences, sooner or later he will seriously hurt or kill someone. I hoped his shunt as Silverstone might make him think twice in future but thats clearly not going to happen


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## Reemul (Sep 13, 2021)

Some real drama queens on here, he gonna kill someone, he's a baby, he's petulant. When was the last time a driver killed another driver in F1, ain't gonna happen, put your panties back on, it's a racing incident. I am 50 and looking back at the best drivers i have watched down the years like Senna, Prost, Piquet, Hunt, Mansell, Alonso or Schumacher none of them would have backed out, winners wanna win and most at all costs.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 13, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Some real drama queens on here, he gonna kill someone, he's a baby, he's petulant. When was the last time a driver killed another driver in F1, ain't gonna happen, put your panties back on, it's a racing incident. I am 50 and looking back at the best drivers i have watched down the years like Senna, Prost, Piquet, Hunt, Mansell, Alonso or Schumacher none of them would have backed out, winners wanna win and most at all costs.
		
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Drama queens really, Max is a tit. Schumacher was dirty. Senna was honest about being dirty. But Max is just a tit. It is always someone else’s fault.  A fast driver in a fast car that’s won nowt. Like someone else has said on other discussions, if Max could really drive he would be 50 points in front of Lewis now.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 13, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Some real drama queens on here, he gonna kill someone, he's a baby, he's petulant. When was the last time a driver killed another driver in F1, ain't gonna happen, put your panties back on,* it's a racing incident.* I am 50 and looking back at the best drivers i have watched down the years like Senna, Prost, Piquet, Hunt, Mansell, Alonso or Schumacher none of them would have backed out, winners wanna win and most at all costs.
		
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It seems that the stewards disagree and have given Verstappen a 3 place grid penalty for the next race. I think I'll go with their expertise and say that Verstappen caused the incident rather than it being a racing incident.


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## cliveb (Sep 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			It seems that the stewards disagree and have given Verstappen a 3 place grid penalty for the next race. I think I'll go with their expertise and say that Verstappen caused the incident rather than it being a racing incident.
		
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A 3 place grid penalty that is actually no penalty at all because RB were always planning to take an engine change penalty at Sochi. He was going to start at the back of the grid anyway.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 14, 2021)

cliveb said:



			A 3 place grid penalty that is actually no penalty at all because RB were always planning to take an engine change penalty at Sochi. He was going to start at the back of the grid anyway.
		
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Clive there are thoughts that even with the new ending will it last the season. What happens if they need another. 🤔 Same penalty, back of the grid.


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## Smiffy (Sep 14, 2021)

Verstappen is Horner's golden child, can do nothing wrong. Riciardo was quick to spot this, knew he stood no chance in the team from then on, and sensibly jumped ship. Can't blame him for that. Don't like Verstappen, will never admit to being wrong.


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## Miller (Sep 14, 2021)

I thought that Bottas' reaction to the crash was pure gold.


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## Piece (Sep 14, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Some real drama queens on here, he gonna kill someone, he's a baby, he's petulant. When was the last time a driver killed another driver in F1, ain't gonna happen, put your panties back on, it's a racing incident. I am 50 and looking back at the best drivers i have watched down the years like Senna, Prost, Piquet, Hunt, Mansell, Alonso or Schumacher none of them would have backed out, winners wanna win and most at all costs.
		
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Nah. I'm of the same age and Max was going for a gap that wasn't there. If that was deemed a racing incident, then that would have open the door for many more stupid manoeuvres going forward.


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## Cherry13 (Sep 14, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Verstappen is Horner's golden child, can do nothing wrong. Riciardo was quick to spot this, knew he stood no chance in the team from then on, and sensibly jumped ship. Can't blame him for that. Don't like Verstappen, will never admit to being wrong.
		
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Horner thinks he is the golden child, because frankly he is.  Regardless of people’s opinions of him he’s a generational talent, and comfortably the best since Lewis came through. (Vettel was good, but not quite that level).  
The verstappens and Horner go back a long way as well, with Horner and Max’s Mam racing in the same karting team in the late 80s, added to this it’s been no secret that Vos has been grooming Max his entire life for this.


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## bobmac (Sep 26, 2021)

A starting grid no-one could have predicted, can't wait for the first couple of corners.
Especially Max v Charles Leclerc
The podium could be full of brits


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## ger147 (Sep 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A starting grid no-one could have predicted, can't wait for the first couple of corners.
Especially Max v Charles Leclerc
The podium could be full of brits  

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Aye, not the greatest moment for Hamilton to hit the wall in the pits with Max already guaranteed dead last on the grid. Pleased for Norris after his big shunt at Spa to get pole, deffo a quality driver.

Should be an intersting race with so many cars out of position.


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## Smiffy (Sep 27, 2021)

Great race yesterday, felt sorry for Lando but he should have listened to his team.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 27, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Great race yesterday, felt sorry for Lando but he should have listened to his team.
		
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Yep, total lack of experience. That said maybe the pit wall should have been a bit more insistent, particularly when it became obvious Merc weren't just throwing a pitlane dummy


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## Miller (Sep 27, 2021)

Great for Russell to out qualify Lewis again, I really do hope that's a sign of things to come.

And I really hope that Russell is allowed to race Lewis next year and not just be another Bottas.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 27, 2021)

Miller said:



			Great for Russell to out qualify Lewis again, I really do hope that's a sign of things to come.

And I really hope that Russell is allowed to race Lewis next year and not just be another Bottas.
		
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Bottas is allowed to race. He's just not good enough to keep up.

Once he is out of the championship running, Mercedes use him to support Lewis. Again, something he's not very good at.


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## Miller (Sep 27, 2021)

There's been a few times when Mr Wolff has told Bottas to support Lewis.

Back in 2018, Bottas was told to let Lewis pass.  The inference is that Mercedes have been prioritising Lewis and his aim to win multiple championships.

Bottas would accept team orders to support Hamilton’s title bid - On Digital Shop 




			Bottas most recently followed team orders in this year’s British Grand Prix, when Hamilton was recovering from his time penalty, allowing the seven-time world champion through en route to a late victory over Charles Leclerc.
Reflecting on the 2018 race in Russia, Bottas said that it was a different situation and that while it was difficult to take at the time, he has since moved on and grown from the call.
“That’s a few years ago, but at least now I can be fine with things,” Bottas said.
“At that point, yes, it was painful. And for me, it was hard to accept.
“But we’ve obviously moved on since, and also I’ve grown a lot since. Things are a bit different now.”
		
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It's clear that Bottas does have pace and experience - the Netflix documentary shows that he actually aims to qualify in third so that he has the slipstream into the first corner.  Although saying that, he does balls things up more often than not and loses positions at the first corner too.

Strategy decisions from Mercedes do seem to benefit Lewis more than Bottas though.  I've seen plenty of times where Lewis benefits from a pit stop and Bottas just goes backwards.


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## cliveb (Sep 27, 2021)

Bottas showed his true colours yesterday, by immediately jumping out of Verstappen's way when the one job he had to do was hold Max up for as long as possible.
He should be shown the door. Now.


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 27, 2021)

Miller said:



			There's been a few times when Mr Wolff has told Bottas to support Lewis.

Back in 2018, Bottas was told to let Lewis pass.  The inference is that Mercedes have been prioritising Lewis and his aim to win multiple championships.

Bottas would accept team orders to support Hamilton’s title bid - On Digital Shop



It's clear that Bottas does have pace and experience - the Netflix documentary shows that he actually aims to qualify in third so that he has the slipstream into the first corner.  Although saying that, he does balls things up more often than not and loses positions at the first corner too.

Strategy decisions from Mercedes do seem to benefit Lewis more than Bottas though.  I've seen plenty of times where Lewis benefits from a pit stop and Bottas just goes backwards.
		
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That's a pretty one sided view of a few different events. 

First choice of strategy is given to the driver in the lead, this has always been the case. For example, neither driver would be allowed to undercut their teammate via a pitstop. 

In 2018, Bottas was miles off in the drivers championship, Lewis was at the top, why on earth wouldn't the team ask them to swap positions? It would be daft not to. If they were both at the top competing for the title, then Lewis would have been told to hold position to bring home the 1, 2.

Bottas does not have the pace, that is clear. From time to time he qualifies well and he wins the odd race, but over the course of a season, he's not quick enough. That's not down to Merc prioritising Hamilton, it's down to the relative abilities of the two drivers.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 2, 2021)

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...ut-praises-max-verstappen-amid-extreme-battle

Anyone else struggling to reconcile Nico Rosberg's opinion with what we've seen so far this season?

What I see is a Red Bull car that is marginally faster than the Merc, with two circuits coming up which have suited the Red Bull very nicely in recent years. Verstappen isn't showing any signs of cracking under pressure, and I think he'll win the next two races. I can't see Hamilton catching him from there as I very much doubt Verstappen will finish anything worse than 2nd for the rest of the season.

I suppose reliability could be a factor, but again, there's been nothing to suggest that Red Bull is more likely to suffer a failure, if anything it seems more likely that Hamilton will have to take a grid penalty for further parts.

Can't see past Verstappen winning the Championship personally. Quite possibly before the last race.


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## bobmac (Nov 2, 2021)

Can you imagine how insufferable he'll be if he wins the world championship. I for one won't be watching him take all the credit for the amazing work his team has done to give him a great car.
I wonder what demands he will make next year as champion


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## Smiffy (Nov 3, 2021)

Going to be an interesting run in to the end of the season that's for sure.
I'm not keen on either driver to be honest, but if I had to pick one I'd choose Hamilton, (just), because I'd like to see him go into the history books.
I like Verstappens aggressiveness, he's a racer through and through. But with him, it always seems to be somebody else's fault when things go wrong, and I hate the way he is mollycoddled by Horner.
Hamilton is a brilliant racer, full stop. He possesses fantastic race craft, and a maturity that only comes with experience. But I cannot get my head around his public persona. The clothes he wears, some of the tripe he comes out with. He leaves himself open to ridicule.
He doesn't meet most F1's fans expectations of a true F1 driver. Would you have seen Prost, Senna, Mansell etc. walking around dressed the way Hamilton does, or riding down the pitlane on a scooter???
Each to their own, but I look on him as a snowflake driver, ideal for the snowflake generation that we live in today.
So maybe he came along at the right time????
It is going to be very interesting next year to see how he handles the partnership with Georgie boy.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Going to be an interesting run in to the end of the season that's for sure.
I'm not keen on either driver to be honest, but if I had to pick one I'd choose Hamilton, (just), because I'd like to see him go into the history books.
I like Verstappens aggressiveness, he's a racer through and through. But with him, it always seems to be somebody else's fault when things go wrong, and I hate the way he is mollycoddled by Horner.
Hamilton is a brilliant racer, full stop. He possesses fantastic race craft, and a maturity that only comes with experience. But I cannot get my head around his public persona. The clothes he wears, some of the tripe he comes out with. He leaves himself open to ridicule.
He doesn't meet most F1's fans expectations of a true F1 driver. Would you have seen Prost, Senna, Mansell etc. walking around dressed the way Hamilton does, or riding down the pitlane on a scooter???
Each to their own, but I look on him as a snowflake driver, ideal for the snowflake generation that we live in today.
So maybe he came along at the right time????
It is going to be very interesting next year to see how he handles the partnership with Georgie boy.
		
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I agree generally with what you say, but I do not quite get the "snowflake" reference? Maybe his fashion sense does not quite meet your eye, but so what. Calvert Lewin the Everton player has an interesting dress sense, but I doubt Everton fans use that against him when judging him as a footballer (or even a person).

Hamilton is a bit "offish" at times, a bit short in his answers when things do not go his way. He certainly is not the bubbly character of someone like Riccardo. So, I can see why some might not quite take to him in that sense (although many love Raikkonen and he can certainly come across as extremely dreary and miserable). However, I've nothing against him if he wants to raise awareness about certain issues outside F1. He is lucky enough to be in a position to have that platform, and whether we agree with him or not, he will say what he does as he feels it could make a positive change.

I've always supported Hamilton, primarily as I'm naturally drawn towards supporting the Brits. And, he is that good, I'd love him to continue building his legacy. It does not go unnoticed that he gets a terrible reception when he races outside the UK, well at least around continental Europe. I feel sorry for him, as it never really feels deserved. It is not like he tries to barge people off the tracks like Schumacher did in his prime. So, the more booing he gets, the more I support him and want him to win.

On the other hand, I can't stand Verstappen and pretty much agree with your assessment. He is an excellent talent, but he is like a ridiculously sulky teenager, anything that goes wrong is always someone elses fault. He'll happily ram someone off the track, and expects everyone just to get out of his way. Spoilt kid syndrome. I'm happy in a way, as I always find F1 is more interesting when there are drivers you really support, but also drivers you love to hate.

The end of the season will be an interesting one.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 3, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Going to be an interesting run in to the end of the season that's for sure.
I'm not keen on either driver to be honest, but if I had to pick one I'd choose Hamilton, (just), because I'd like to see him go into the history books.
I like Verstappens aggressiveness, he's a racer through and through. But with him, it always seems to be somebody else's fault when things go wrong, and I hate the way he is mollycoddled by Horner.
Hamilton is a brilliant racer, full stop. He possesses fantastic race craft, and a maturity that only comes with experience. But I cannot get my head around his public persona. The clothes he wears, some of the tripe he comes out with. He leaves himself open to ridicule.
He doesn't meet most F1's fans expectations of a true F1 driver. Would you have seen Prost, Senna, Mansell etc. walking around dressed the way Hamilton does, or riding down the pitlane on a scooter???
Each to their own, but I look on him as a snowflake driver, ideal for the snowflake generation that we live in today.
So maybe he came along at the right time????
It is going to be very interesting next year to see how he handles the partnership with Georgie boy.
		
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I don't really see how any F1 driver can be described as a snowflake. They all have balls the size of grapefruits to drive in the way they do.

You're comparing Hamilton with drivers from a bygone era, but putting that to one side, why should he be anyone other than Lewis Hamilton? I don't agree that he leaves himself open to ridicule, being different should be celebrated. As should standing up for oneself even if that is not a popular view.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I agree generally with what you say, but I do not quite get the "snowflake" reference? Maybe his fashion sense does not quite meet your eye, but so what. Calvert Lewin the Everton player has an interesting dress sense, but I doubt Everton fans use that against him when judging him as a footballer (or even a person).

Hamilton is a bit "offish" at times, a bit short in his answers when things do not go his way. He certainly is not the bubbly character of someone like Riccardo. So, I can see why some might not quite take to him in that sense (although many love Raikkonen and he can certainly come across as extremely dreary and miserable). However, I've nothing against him if he wants to raise awareness about certain issues outside F1. He is lucky enough to be in a position to have that platform, and whether we agree with him or not, he will say what he does as he feels it could make a positive change.

I've always supported Hamilton, primarily as I'm naturally drawn towards supporting the Brits. And, he is that good, I'd love him to continue building his legacy. It does not go unnoticed that he gets a terrible reception when he races outside the UK, well at least around continental Europe. I feel sorry for him, as it never really feels deserved. It is not like he tries to barge people off the tracks like Schumacher did in his prime. So, the more booing he gets, the more I support him and want him to win.

On the other hand, I can't stand Verstappen and pretty much agree with your assessment. He is an excellent talent, but he is like a ridiculously sulky teenager, anything that goes wrong is always someone elses fault. He'll happily ram someone off the track, and expects everyone just to get out of his way. Spoilt kid syndrome. I'm happy in a way, as I always find F1 is more interesting when there are drivers you really support, but also drivers you love to hate.

The end of the season will be an interesting one.
		
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I'm with you on Hamilton. I actually quite like Verstappen though, maybe like isn't the right word, but I've a lot of respect for him. He's a very talented driver in raw speed terms, but he's one of the few that also have the mentality to back that up. In my opinion he's very similar to Hamilton, if you think back to the kid that arrived in F1 back in 2007.

The one I find a bit tedious is Alonso, not him personally, but the level of smoke that gets blown up his bottom by commentators and others over his ability. He might be fast, I don't doubt that, but seems to me that he's missing a certain something. I think he could have won at least one more world titles (probably 2) if he was as good as Hamilton.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I'm with you on Hamilton. I actually quite like Verstappen though, maybe like isn't the right word, but I've a lot of respect for him. He's a very talented driver in raw speed terms, but he's one of the few that also have the mentality to back that up. In my opinion he's very similar to Hamilton, if you think back to the kid that arrived in F1 back in 2007.

The one I find a bit tedious is Alonso, not him personally, but the level of smoke that gets blown up his bottom by commentators and others over his ability. He might be fast, I don't doubt that, but seems to me that he's missing a certain something. I think he could have won at least one more world titles (probably 2) if he was as good as Hamilton.
		
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I'll admit my dislike of Verstappen is purely down to what I see in F1, particularly over recent events. Yeah, there is a lot of Hype over Alonso, but he has not exactly given any prolonged domination. I think he showed early promise that he could be a great, but never fulfilled on that. He is like the Paul Pogba of F1.


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## cliveb (Nov 3, 2021)

I can't see why Hamilton's lifestyle should influence anyone's opinion of him as a racing driver. His taste in clothes, music, and general off-track activities is the polar opposite of mine. But as a racing driver he strikes me as the most complete package I've ever personally witnessed. There have been other drivers with the raw speed and racecraft, but the thing that sets Hamilton apart for me is his utter sportsmanship and willingness to acknowledge his own mistakes. I'm too young to have known how the likes of Fangio, Moss et al behaved. They may well have been consumate gentlemen, as was Jim Clark. But in the modern era, none of the superstars (Senna, Prost, Mansell, Lauda, Piquet, Alonso and especially Schumacher) had anything like the humility I see in Hamilton.

Verstappen has amazing speed, but the thing which will hinder his development are Horner and Marko. As long as they never tell him when he's ****ed up, he won't learn.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 3, 2021)

It always amuses me that people don’t like Lewis because of his dress sense. But the same people probably do like Jackie Stewart and Hunt. 
I would happily wear the same clothes as Lewis if it generated me the money it does him. He probably thinks overweight middle aged men dressed in pink polo shirts and beige trousers look ridiculous.

He seems to be someone the kids look up to.
https://www.northantslive.news/news...wis-hamilton-dons-disguise-school-6142552.amp


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## Smiffy (Nov 4, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I don't really see how any F1 driver can be described as a snowflake. They all have balls the size of grapefruits to drive in the way they do.
You're comparing Hamilton with drivers from a bygone era
		
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Maybe "snowflake" was the wrong term to use. And I agree, all F1 drivers have balls the size of grapefruits, their skills and bravery are to be admired.
But maybe it's just me being born in the wrong era. Being a "child of the 60's" I grew up watching a different kind of sportsman than we have today.
Footballers were tougher then. You had "hard men" like Ron Harris, Billy Bremner, Norman Hunter, Tommy Smith etc. who were admired, and feared, for their tenacity and grit. Not pretty, but it was effective.
Then you had the more skillful players. Best, Bowles, Osgood, Marsh, Greaves. These guys were legends, but as well as being supremely skillful, they could take the knocks. Watch old videos from the 70's and these players would have seven shades of shite kicked out of them, but they never complained. They just got up, wiped the mud off of their hands, and got on with it.
Nowadays?? A player has only got to be brushed against and he goes down like a sack of spuds, writhing in agony, like he's been poleaxed. I've got no time for it. I'm not advocating the rough play of the 70's by the way, but get annoyed that there are so many "mamby pambies" around in sport nowadays.
And whilst supremely skillful, Lewis Hamilton does not fit into my idea of a "hero". He's not a "man's man" which is a shame.
So I guess it's me......


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 4, 2021)

I woul£ suggest the footy players acting like they have been shot is just that, acting. Some players are just as dirty as days gone by but they are more subtle about it.
Hamilton is the exceptional driver of his era. Forget the car he drives, and compare it to the difference between him and his team mate.
JVS comes across to me as a very good driver, but just a bully. I have no time for his antics or poor me attitude.Ultimately, he is the epitome of Horner and Red Bull as a whole. Whinge all day long when they don’t get what they want.
A Red Bull team run by Ron Dennis or Frank Williams would have been a different animal.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 4, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Maybe "snowflake" was the wrong term to use. And I agree, all F1 drivers have balls the size of grapefruits, their skills and bravery are to be admired.
But maybe it's just me being born in the wrong era. Being a "child of the 60's" I grew up watching a different kind of sportsman than we have today.
Footballers were tougher then. You had "hard men" like Ron Harris, Billy Bremner, Norman Hunter, Tommy Smith etc. who were admired, and feared, for their tenacity and grit. Not pretty, but it was effective.
Then you had the more skillful players. Best, Bowles, Osgood, Marsh, Greaves. These guys were legends, but as well as being supremely skillful, they could take the knocks. Watch old videos from the 70's and these players would have seven shades of shite kicked out of them, but they never complained. They just got up, wiped the mud off of their hands, and got on with it.
Nowadays?? A player has only got to be brushed against and he goes down like a sack of spuds, writhing in agony, like he's been poleaxed. I've got no time for it. I'm not advocating the rough play of the 70's by the way, but get annoyed that there are so many "mamby pambies" around in sport nowadays.
And whilst supremely skillful, Lewis Hamilton does not fit into my idea of a "hero". He's not a "man's man" which is a shame.
So I guess it's me......
		
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That’s fair enough Smiffy. I can’t force anyone to like Hamilton, but I think his talent and achievements warrant respect, quite often more than he’s given.

Going a bit off topic, although I’m with you in not liking the play acting element that has come with modern football, I much prefer that the “thuggery” side of it has been taken out of the game and been replaced by skill. Perhaps there aren’t as many “hard men” around now, but I’d say there’s two parts to that:

1. There’s no place for someone that’s tough but not top level with the ball at their feet; and
2. Any hard men that are still around can’t play in that fashion as they’d be sent off

I don’t think the play acting is so much because players are “mamba pambies” but rather that the modern approach to pretty much all modern elite sport is marginal gains, including when it comes to gamesmanship.

I actually very much enjoy watching Championship football as it seems to have more of the competitive edge of years gone by, while also being a much higher quality product than it used to be. I’d like it to 90s premier league style football a lot of the time!

Which brings me to my overall conclusion, everyone looks back to what they enjoyed when they were first bitten by the football bug! For me, it’s the 90s and early 2000s. I’m not a United fan, but I loved the way they played in that era, much more than I liked the way Arsenal played, for example.


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## bobmac (Nov 4, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I don’t think the play acting is so much because players are “mamba pambies” but rather that the modern approach to pretty much all modern elite sport is marginal gains, including when it comes to gamesmanship.
		
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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



View attachment 39343

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You lost me at "soccer"


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## BiMGuy (Nov 6, 2021)

Anyone who wants to criticise Lewis’s choice of clothing needs to have a look at what Jackie Stewart was wearing whilst handing Bottas a trophy just now.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 7, 2021)

Hate to say it as I really cant stand him or his team, but this championship is Verstappens to lose


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## Beezerk (Nov 7, 2021)

What a snooze fest 😴


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## Piece (Nov 7, 2021)

Red Bull lightning quick. Disappointed that Bottas first corner braking was, let’s say, not as aggressive as it could have been.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 7, 2021)

Always satisfying to see Hamilton get beat - even better when it’s by the local team 😁


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 7, 2021)

I thought Bottas handed the race to Verstappen by moving over to the right on the run to the first corner. If he'd stayed over to the left, with 1/2 a car's width on his outside, and been alongside Hamilton there would have been nowhere for Verstappen to go and he would have had to brake earlier to avoid hitting the back of Bottas.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought Bottas handed the race to Verstappen by moving over to the right on the run to the first corner. If he'd stayed over to the left, with 1/2 a car's width on his outside, and been alongside Hamilton there would have been nowhere for Verstappen to go and he would have had to brake earlier to avoid hitting the back of Bottas.
		
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Possibly but he had so much speed he would have been in front within a few laps anyway. Look like Mercs decision to not spend on developing this years car any further is going to bite them on the arse.


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## Smiffy (Nov 8, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought Bottas handed the race to Verstappen by moving over to the right on the run to the first corner. If he'd stayed over to the left, with 1/2 a car's width on his outside, and been alongside Hamilton there would have been nowhere for Verstappen to go and he would have had to brake earlier to avoid hitting the back of Bottas.
		
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Tend to agree with this. You could have got a bus down the left hand side of Bottas. But even if he had kept Verstappen behind, it wouldn't have been long before he had swept past Hamilton. The Mercs were well down on performance yesterday.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 8, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Tend to agree with this. You could have got a bus down the left hand side of Bottas. But even if he had kept Verstappen behind, it wouldn't have been long before he had swept past Hamilton. The Mercs were well down on performance yesterday.
		
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I thought the relative performance of the cars was consistent with more or less every other race this season really.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 8, 2021)

Can't wait until the days return in which a faster cars do not suddenly slow down when they get in the turbulent air in front. There is always a level of excitement when one car is catching another, although that is often dampened by the fact that you sort of know there is a good chance that once it gets within a second or 2, it will be impossible to overtake unless there is a huge speed differential.

Also, I miss the days of refueling, simply because teams could be on extremely different strategies and it added another element to the race.

After the first lap, you can virtually predict with about 90-95% confidence what is going to happen for the rest of the race. Cars do not even seem to break down anymore. That is a good thing, although sometimes it is the only hope one has in having an exciting twist to the race,


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 8, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Can't wait until the days return in which a faster cars do not suddenly slow down when they get in the turbulent air in front. There is always a level of excitement when one car is catching another, although that is often dampened by the fact that you sort of know there is a good chance that once it gets within a second or 2, it will be impossible to overtake unless there is a huge speed differential.

Also, I miss the days of refueling, simply because teams could be on extremely different strategies and it added another element to the race.

After the first lap, you can virtually predict with about 90-95% confidence what is going to happen for the rest of the race. Cars do not even seem to break down anymore. That is a good thing, although sometimes it is the only hope one has in having an exciting twist to the race,
		
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Being able to follow and overtake would be a game changer.

Even with DRS, don't they need to be typically lapping at 1.3 seconds per lap faster to actually get a move done? I guess it's a bit track dependent, think that stat was from the US. But even so, it doesn't make for great racing.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 8, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Being able to follow and overtake would be a game changer.

Even with DRS, don't they need to be typically lapping at 1.3 seconds per lap faster to actually get a move done? I guess it's a bit track dependent, think that stat was from the US. But even so, it doesn't make for great racing.
		
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Yeah, depends on the track. Some tracks the use of DRS makes over-taking like taking candy from a baby. Other tracks, it makes little difference.


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## cliveb (Nov 8, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Tend to agree with this. You could have got a bus down the left hand side of Bottas. But even if he had kept Verstappen behind, it wouldn't have been long before he had swept past Hamilton. The Mercs were well down on performance yesterday.
		
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It looked to me as if Bottas was trying to stop Hamilton getting past. The jink to the right makes no sense otherwise. The Mercs should have worked together as a roadblock round the first few corners, then Bottas should have let Hamilton go and made sure Verstappen was behind him and done his best to keep things that way for as long as he could to give Lewis the biggest possible gap over Max once the inevitable happened.

But I've had the impression pretty much all year (and in previous years) that Bottas isn't interested in helping Hamilton, he races for himself.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 8, 2021)

cliveb said:



			It looked to me as if Bottas was trying to stop Hamilton getting past. The jink to the right makes no sense otherwise. The Mercs should have worked together as a roadblock round the first few corners, then Bottas should have let Hamilton go and made sure Verstappen was behind him and done his best to keep things that way for as long as he could to give Lewis the biggest possible gap over Max once the inevitable happened.

But I've had the impression pretty much all year (and in previous years) that Bottas isn't interested in helping Hamilton, he races for himself.
		
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Unless Bottas moved to the right, so that Hamilton could get in his slip stream rather than Verstappen. However, it didn't work as Hamilton had already got up alongside him.

Just an alternative theory, but like you, I suspect Bottas has no interest in helping Hamilton.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 8, 2021)

cliveb said:



			But I've had the impression pretty much all year (and in previous years) that Bottas isn't interested in helping Hamilton, he races for himself.
		
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I think Bottas has always tried to give the impression of Hamiltons equal akin to Rosberg for that 1 season, but alas he is nowhere close and is now just being awkward.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 9, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Being able to follow and overtake would be a game changer.
.
		
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Hopefully next years cars will make a massive difference to this


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 10, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think Bottas has always tried to give the impression of Hamiltons equal akin to Rosberg for that 1 season, but alas he is nowhere close and is now just being awkward.
		
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He's just not at that elite level, when all is said and done

It isn't JUST the car, as so many say, there are only a handful of drivers that are fast enough to win the title even if they have the best machine. If Hamilton in this years Merc was up against Vettel and Perez at Red Bull, there's only one winner. 

Bottas is very good, he's just not quite good enough.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Hopefully next years cars will make a massive difference to this
		
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Not wishing to be a debbie downer, but haven't we heard all of this before?!


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## SaintHacker (Nov 11, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Not wishing to be a debbie downer, but haven't we heard all of this before?!
		
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We have, but we have never seen such a massive regulation change in previous years. These cars will be mostly about ground effect, something that has been outlawed since the early 80s, to produce most of their downforce

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...l-new-2022-f1-car.4OLg8DrXyzHzdoGrbqp6ye.html


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## Beedee (Nov 11, 2021)

I can imagine year 2 of the new regs having decent racing.  

Year 1 is all about who finds the best loophole (think Merc separating the turbo components, or Brawn's double diffuser, Red Bull charging the diffuser with exhaust gases).  There will be something, one little thing that they do that provides a disproportionate advantage.  And if that one thing is a fundamental design point that drives chassis design then one team could really dominate again and the others won't be competitive until at least year 2.

Year 2 everyone catches on and more teams are competitive.  

Year 3 onwards, every team stretches every loophole as far as possible so that airflow is maximised for their car, and the air behind dirtied as much as possible for the car following again.  

Of course if the Year 1 best loophole is found by the biggest budget teams straight off the bat then the other teams are stuffed for years.  Again.


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## Piece (Nov 13, 2021)

Hamilton sent to back of the Sprint grid after technical infringement. Going need something special or lucky to get anything out of this weekend


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			Hamilton sent to back of the Sprint grid after technical infringement. Going need something special or lucky to get anything out of this weekend
		
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The FIA doing everything they can to stop him.


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## Piece (Nov 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			Hamilton sent to back of the Sprint grid after technical infringement. Going need something special or lucky to get anything out of this weekend
		
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After that Sprint, Hamilton has a reasonable chance for P1


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2021)

The FIA technical penalties do a great job of destroying the spectacle for fans. Mind you, awesome job by Hamiliton today, so might ironically work out to be a very exciting race tomorrow.

I think I despise Red Bull a little bit more after every race. They just seem like the "tell tale" that dobs their rivals in at every opportunity, hoping that every now and again it'll result in a penalty.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The FIA technical penalties do a great job of destroying the spectacle for fans. Mind you, awesome job by Hamiliton today, so might ironically work out to be a very exciting race tomorrow.

I think I despise Red Bull a little bit more after every race. They just seem like the "tell tale" that dobs their rivals in at every opportunity, hoping that every now and again it'll result in a penalty.
		
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It might well be some sort of revenge for them having to stop use their "flexing" rear wing, that they got no penalty for.


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## JamesR (Nov 13, 2021)

I liked Hamilton’s engineer, when Lewis was getting out of the car, “don’t touch anyone else’s car”
Nice bit of piss taking 😁


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## Smiffy (Nov 14, 2021)

Lot's of people writing Hamilton's chances of an eight WC off. It only needs a DNF from Verstappen today, and a Hamilton win and it's game on again with Hamilton taking a small lead in the Championship.
Strange things happen in F1 from time to time.
This is certainly one of the most interesting battles for a good few years. 
It will be interesting to watch Hamilton this evening, I expect he'll be up to around 5th or 6th by the end of the first lap, we know that he's usually quick away from the lights, and his car seems to be "on song".
If Merc get the strategy right, I can certainly see him pulling off a win.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 14, 2021)

Inter Lagos is too hard to overtake, can’t see him getting higher than 4th, but you never know!


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2021)

Max joking about the paltry 50,000E fine.
Have dinner on me
0.2 mm


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Inter Lagos is too hard to overtake, can’t see him getting higher than 4th, but you never know!
		
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True, Lewis only overtook 15 or so cars yesterday in 25ish laps. The DRS seems more powerful there than other places


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## SaintHacker (Nov 14, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Inter Lagos is too hard to overtake, can’t see him getting higher than 4th, but you never know!
		
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Interlagos is one of the best tracks for overtaking, hence why Merc decided to change Lewis engine here


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## SaintHacker (Nov 14, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Lot's of people writing Hamilton's chances of an eight WC off. It only needs a DNF from Verstappen today, and a Hamilton win and it's game on again with Hamilton taking a small lead in the Championship.
Strange things happen in F1 from time to time.
This is certainly one of the most interesting battles for a good few years.
It will be interesting to watch Hamilton this evening, I expect he'll be up to around 5th or 6th by the end of the first lap, we know that he's usually quick away from the lights, and his car seems to be "on song".
If Merc get the strategy right, I can certainly see him pulling off a win.
		
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100%. Also by changing Lewis power unit they've given RB a problem, espeially if Lewis scores decent points today. Do they put a new one in for Max and take the penalty or or stick with the existing, tired one until the end of the season and hope it doesn't blow?


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## Smiffy (Nov 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			100%. Also by changing Lewis power unit they've given RB a problem, espeially if Lewis scores decent points today. Do they put a new one in for Max and take the penalty or or stick with the existing, tired one until the end of the season and hope it doesn't blow?
		
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I wouldn't mind betting it goes pop today... he's been pushing it a bit hard recently.
He'll have a hard job getting past Bottas, because I reckon Bottas got a severe reprimand behind closed doors last week after his lackluster defence against Verstappen last time out.
As I said before, strange things happen every now and then.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 14, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I wouldn't mind betting it goes pop today... he's been pushing it a bit hard recently.
He'll have a hard job getting past Bottas, because I reckon Bottas got a severe reprimand behind closed doors last week after his lackluster defence against Verstappen last time out.
As I said before, strange things happen every now and then.
		
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Be a shame for JV to shoot up the inside of Bottas and get taken out....


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## Reemul (Nov 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			100%. Also by changing Lewis power unit they've given RB a problem, espeially if Lewis scores decent points today. Do they put a new one in for Max and take the penalty or or stick with the existing, tired one until the end of the season and hope it doesn't blow?
		
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He only changed his total engine for Russia, that was a few races ago so nothing tired about it, Jesus last week everyone was raging about how fast the car was. Do people not actually know the facts and just spout rubbish without thought...


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 14, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The FIA doing everything they can to stop him.
		
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Don't be ridiculous. This wasn't a judgement call, it was a measurement, he was either in our outwith the rules, he was measured to be outwith


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The FIA technical penalties do a great job of destroying the spectacle for fans.
		
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So he'll start 9th today, have to come through the field, with a car that is much faster anyway so it's not really that hard, but you think that makes the race less of a spectacle? There's very few Grand Prix nowadays actually worth watching at all, this however will be one of them


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## Captainron (Nov 14, 2021)

Happily see Hamilton lose to Verstappen.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 14, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Don't be ridiculous. This wasn't a judgement call, it was a measurement, he was either in our outwith the rules, he was measured to be outwith
		
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Actually, it was free play in the pivot mechanism of the DRS wing which the FIA agreed it was. Not design issues or deliberate cheating (Red Bull, Ferrari come to mind). Other teams have been allowed to make changes in parc ferme when there has been damage issues, the Red Bull rear wing having cracks in the week before being the most recent before.
Say what you will about Hamilton, but I dont for one second think Toto Wolf is going to knowingly cheat (and no do I think Hamilton would either).


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## Smiffy (Nov 14, 2021)

Go Lewis go!!
And Sainz is a lying git ..."I was squeezed". There was nobody near him!!


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 14, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Actually, it was free play in the pivot mechanism of the DRS wing which the FIA agreed it was. Not design issues or deliberate cheating (Red Bull, Ferrari come to mind). Other teams have been allowed to make changes in parc ferme when there has been damage issues, the Red Bull rear wing having cracks in the week before being the most recent before.
Say what you will about Hamilton, but I dont for one second think Toto Wolf is going to knowingly cheat (and no do I think Hamilton would either).
		
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Havent in any way said it was deliberate, but their tolerances were out.


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## Beedee (Nov 14, 2021)

FIA have just announced they're changing their name to RBIA.


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## Smiffy (Nov 14, 2021)

That was a bit naughty by Max


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2021)

Unbelievable decision!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2021)

Get in there Lewis!


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## Smiffy (Nov 14, 2021)

The fat lady has just put the microphone 🎤🎤🎤🎤 away!!!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2021)

Max really starting to show his true colours. He does make it very difficult to like him.


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## Smiffy (Nov 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Max really starting to show his true colours. He does make it very difficult to like him.
		
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But the salty Max fans will still criticise Hamilton.
Today just proves what a class act he is, on the racetrack at least.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2021)

Nice to see some proper racing fans appreciate the GOAT 😀


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## DaveR (Nov 14, 2021)

Really don't like Hamilton but no denying his quality as a driver


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## Beezerk (Nov 14, 2021)

Get in Lewis.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2021)

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I despise Red Bull and Verstappen. Disgusting outfit of a side, and being cynical, have the F1 officials in their back pocket. If there was no penalty given to Max for pushing Hamilton off the track, then they can never penalise another driver again for pushing someone off the track. Because that was clear cheating tactics today. Lewis was well ahead, and Max simply decided not to break going into corner to get back ahead, the push Lewis and himself miles off the track. Absolute joke.

Max then weaves all over the place when Lewis behind him later. Gets black and white flag, and he gives a little sarcastic comment. Because he knows he is immune to rules unlike other drivers.

Thankfully, justice was done with Lewis winning. Mind, a 5 seconds time penalty would have made things interesting with Bottas closing in at the end.


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## Dando (Nov 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Max really starting to show his true colours. He does make it very difficult to like him.
		
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He’s F1’s version of Patrick Read or David Warner


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## Piece (Nov 14, 2021)

Brilliant drive from Hamilton in a lightning quick car.

Max got away with one there on turn 4. No surprise there.

Red Bull said that any new engine for them now wont bring enough power gain to warrant it. I think they may be pinning their hopes on the FIA finding something illegal on the rear wing or a Toto Halfords edition tuning box in the power plant 😄


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2021)

Phenomenal result for Hamilton! Justified Merc's decision to sacrifice places for the new engine! 
MV's action may/may not have justified further action (I didn't see race/incident and can't believe there's that much bias from FIA) but I still hope he hangs on for the title.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Phenomenal result for Hamilton! Justified Merc's decision to sacrifice places for the new engine!
MV's action may/may not have justified further action (I didn't see race/incident and can't believe there's that much bias from FIA) but I still hope he hangs on for the title.
		
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I did, and TBH it was a blatant move that put himself onto the run off area and LH well deep into it. Then there was the very obvious weaving down the straight when LH was getting ready to pounce.
MVs has no class whatsoever.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Phenomenal result for Hamilton! Justified Merc's decision to sacrifice places for the new engine!
MV's action may/may not have justified further action (I didn't see race/incident and can't believe there's that much bias from FIA) but I still hope he hangs on for the title.
		
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From the on-board you can quite clearly see his front wheel straighten mid corner, he knew exactly what he was doing. Any other driver would have been penalised but as usual RB seem to be immune. Can only guess Marko has some dodgy pictures of Michael Massi...


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## Swango1980 (Nov 15, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Inter Lagos is too hard to overtake, can’t see him getting higher than 4th, but you never know!
		
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This aged well

Including the Sprint Race, I think Hamilton overtook about 25-27 cars (including Verstappen twice, and thankfully only rammed off the track on one of those occasions). He wouldn't have done that at Monaco, a track where your comment would have been a sound one.


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## Smiffy (Nov 15, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Then there was the very obvious weaving down the straight when LH was getting ready to pounce.
		
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I did that during a gokart race and got black flagged...
😭😭😭


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## SaintHacker (Nov 15, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I did that during a gokart race and got black flagged...
😭😭😭
		
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That was more to do with the 8 pints you put down before starting 😂😂


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2021)

I've just seen that Lewis was fined €5,000 and given a €20,000 suspended fine for undoing his seat belt on the slowing down lap of the Grand Prix.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've just seen that Lewis was fined €5,000 and given a €20,000 suspended fine for undoing his seat belt on the slowing down lap of the Grand Prix. 

Click to expand...

In giving the fine, the FIA stewards said:

“Further, Formula 1 drivers set the example for junior categories. It is critical that junior category drivers learn the importance of using all the safety devices of the car at all times.” 

Hilarious. I guess it is also important for junior drivers to learn the art of ramming cars off the track at high speed, and weaving all over the place when a car is following at over 200mph. Verstappen is the perfect role model for such behaviour


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			In giving the fine, the FIA stewards said:

“Further, Formula 1 drivers set the example for junior categories. It is critical that junior category drivers learn the importance of using all the safety devices of the car at all times.”

Hilarious. I guess it is also important for junior drivers to learn the art of ramming cars off the track at high speed, and weaving all over the place when a car is following at over 200mph. Verstappen is the perfect role model for such behaviour
		
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 The FIA are correct, what if someone had hit him, all is devices are useless…. Wasn’t very bright.

Just read all the reports, the rear wing stuff was petty, 0.2mm extra deflection.. they should do the drag calculation and they would see that was little to nothing in advantage. The key point is Interlagos, is a traction circuit and you also get a benefit down the start finish straight with aero efficiency.
That Mercedes unit, is best in class, and regulations stop the others changing crucial geometry to even the playing field. I suspect the redbull is more efficient from an aero perspective, and the Honda unit is the right geometry but still behind the Mercedes.
But given the circuits nature, and requirements the red bull was always 2nd best. The point being if you can protect your tyre by generating enough downforce and still maintain a high straight line speed your going to be quick. The red bull had to sacrifice wing levels to get the down force and lost the straight line speed …
I did not see the Williams result but if it wasn’t top 5 , you can categorically state that they are a clueless engineering team 🤣🤣🤣


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## Swango1980 (Nov 15, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			The FIA are correct, what if someone had hit him, all is devices are useless…. Wasn’t very bright.

Just read all the reports, the rear wing stuff was petty, 0.2mm extra deflection.. they should do the drag calculation and they would see that was little to nothing in advantage. The key point is Interlagos, is a traction circuit and you also get a benefit down the start finish straight with aero efficiency.
That Mercedes unit, is best in class, and regulations stop the others changing crucial geometry to even the playing field. I suspect the redbull is more efficient from an aero perspective, and the Honda unit is the right geometry but still behind the Mercedes.
But given the circuits nature, and requirements the red bull was always 2nd best. The point being if you can protect your tyre by generating enough downforce and still maintain a high straight line speed your going to be quick. The red bull had to sacrifice wing levels to get the down force and lost the straight line speed …
I did not see the Williams result but if it wasn’t top 5 , you can categorically state that they are a clueless engineering team 🤣🤣🤣
		
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I do not disagree. My point was they are happy to correctly penalise Hamilton when it comes to safety, but when Verstappen makes manoeuvres that could potentially injure or kill the driver behind him, they are happy to turn a blind eye. As I said, after their non-decision at the weekend, it is going to be very difficult for stewards to penalise any driver for ramming someone else off the track as reference will always be made to Verstappen. "Let them race" is an awful argument, when it is clear Verstappen purposefully broke way too late to get back in the lead, and was miles away from ever making the corner. Had he taken Hamilton out of the race, he knew that it was to his advantage, by ensuring he doesn't close the gap in the championship.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I do not disagree. My point was they are happy to correctly penalise Hamilton when it comes to safety, but when Verstappen makes manoeuvres that could potentially injure or kill the driver behind him, they are happy to turn a blind eye. As I said, after their non-decision at the weekend, it is going to be very difficult for stewards to penalise any driver for ramming someone else off the track as reference will always be made to Verstappen. "Let them race" is an awful argument, when it is clear Verstappen purposefully broke way too late to get back in the lead, and was miles away from ever making the corner. Had he taken Hamilton out of the race, he knew that it was to his advantage, by ensuring he doesn't close the gap in the championship.
		
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He is on the edge, and they have to give him the benefit of the doubt. You may disagree but the whole incident has to be really blatantly obvious.. like Schumacher Villeneuve at Jerez.


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## Smiffy (Nov 15, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			You may disagree but the whole incident has to be really blatantly obvious..
		
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Which it was, even as it happened, let alone with the later footage


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## Swango1980 (Nov 15, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			He is on the edge, and they have to give him the benefit of the doubt. You may disagree but the whole incident has to be really blatantly obvious.. like Schumacher Villeneuve at Jerez.
		
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Not sure how more3 blatantly obvious it needs to be? Does Max need to go meet the stewards, slap one in the face and say "I meant that?". He clearly was overly aggressive going into the corner to regain the lead. He ended up going miles off the track himself, it was a very very different line he took from all the other times he took that corner. The other times, he was able to take the corner perfectly fine. If Hamilton was not there, he would have not had any trouble taking the corner. However, Hamilton put him under pressure, Verstappen was unable to stay in front unless he basically forced himself to break extremely late and take them both off the track. 

What benefit of the doubt should he have been given? If a driver breaks extremely late and smashes into the back of the car in front, it is a clear and obvious driver error that is punished. Max broke extremely late and would have smashed straight into the side of Hamilton, had Hamilton continued to take the corner. Whether he aggravated this by turning towards Hamilton is simply another additional factor. If he hadn't, then it is still Max's error and he should be punished. If he DID actively push Hamilton off the track, then that would be deserving of an even bigger penalty. That is the only factor that may have been hard to tell without the cockpit footage.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure how more3 blatantly obvious it needs to be? Does Max need to go meet the stewards, slap one in the face and say "I meant that?". He clearly was overly aggressive going into the corner to regain the lead. He ended up going miles off the track himself, it was a very very different line he took from all the other times he took that corner. The other times, he was able to take the corner perfectly fine. If Hamilton was not there, he would have not had any trouble taking the corner. However, Hamilton put him under pressure, Verstappen was unable to stay in front unless he basically forced himself to break extremely late and take them both off the track.

What benefit of the doubt should he have been given? If a driver breaks extremely late and smashes into the back of the car in front, it is a clear and obvious driver error that is punished. Max broke extremely late and would have smashed straight into the side of Hamilton, had Hamilton continued to take the corner. Whether he aggravated this by turning towards Hamilton is simply another additional factor. If he hadn't, then it is still Max's error and he should be punished. If he DID actively push Hamilton off the track, then that would be deserving of an even bigger penalty. That is the only factor that may have been hard to tell without the cockpit footage.
		
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The stewards will have to be asked … but asking costs money and they also are fickle about their judgements as in you questioned it your abusing our authority etc …


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## Reemul (Nov 15, 2021)

I find it quite frustrating, you have the Verstappen fan boys in 1 corner and the Hamilton ones in the other. it's like Neville and Carragher. Personally a 5 second penalty was probably due but not given. Not the end of the world. I felt Verstappen was harshly done by in some previous incidents but again it someone else is making the decision not the teams or drivers. Max will of course defend his side and Lewis his and Toto and Horner the same, I mean Wenger never saw sh1t for 20 years.
All drivers down the years have done stuff they shouldn't, sometimes punished and sometimes not, fairly and unfairly but boy do fanboys raise hell over it.

Personally I like the harder racing and more taking a chance, I mean the cars are spectacularly safe but please don't do any actually racing just let them through and race the clock, boring as hell..


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## cliveb (Nov 15, 2021)

Putting to one side the debate about Max's tactics, the FIA's penalty decision-making, and Lewis's amazing weekend, I'd like to discuss Bottas.

Valtteri has spent most of this season failing to do his job on numerous occasions. In the sprint race he finally did what was required, and I hoped he'd turned some sort of corner. But in the GP itself, once again he failed to do the one job required of him by chickening out and allowing Max past at turn 1. It's not like he had anything to lose. Why didn't he brave it out and effectively say to Max "if you're not prepared to stay behind, you'll have to crash into me". I think perhaps Bottas is out of his depth in the Merc team, who seem to be doing the gentlemanly thing and honouring his contract. If it had been any other team (especially Red Bull or Ferrari), he'd have been shown the door mid-season. He was only able to be a useful wingman in previous years because the superiority of the car masked his shortcomings.
All of the above is, of course, IMHO.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 15, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Putting to one side the debate about Max's tactics, the FIA's penalty decision-making, and Lewis's amazing weekend, I'd like to discuss Bottas.

Valtteri has spent most of this season failing to do his job on numerous occasions. In the sprint race he finally did what was required, and I hoped he'd turned some sort of corner. But in the GP itself, once again he failed to do the one job required of him by chickening out and allowing Max past at turn 1. It's not like he had anything to lose. Why didn't he brave it out and effectively say to Max "if you're not prepared to stay behind, you'll have to crash into me". I think perhaps Bottas is out of his depth in the Merc team, who seem to be doing the gentlemanly thing and honouring his contract. If it had been any other team (especially Red Bull or Ferrari), he'd have been shown the door mid-season. He was only able to be a useful wingman in previous years because the superiority of the car masked his shortcomings.
All of the above is, of course, IMHO.
		
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Bottas will have been told not to jump out of Maxs way. Unfortunately he just doesn’t have the minerals to do that.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Nov 15, 2021)

This is in no way to deride motor sports, but they were initially promoted to advance the state of the art in motorcars.

The internal combustion engine powered automobile has been serving us well since 1885.
The Germans invented it.  The Americans figured out how to mass produce it.  The British and Italians made it sexy as hell. 
And the Asians learned how to steal business from all of us, God bless their scheming hearts.

But now it's clearly time to leave petroleum based fuels to the jet planes because everything else can find another way.
We need electric car racing to advance the state of the art--just as racing was intended to do.


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## Smiffy (Nov 15, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			We need electric car racing to advance the state of the art--just as racing was intended to do.
		
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Until they can make an electric car sound like a screaming V10 or 12, I'll stick with what we have. Sorry


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## Pants (Nov 15, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Until they can make an electric car sound like a screaming V10 or 12 and with the smell of Castrol Ahhh, I'll stick with what we have. Sorry
		
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Added to that for you


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## SaintHacker (Nov 15, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			We need electric car racing to advance the state of the art--just as racing was intended to do.
		
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They already have it, its called Formula E, and its, well, shite...


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## bobmac (Nov 16, 2021)

Very good driver can't go round a corner fast without running 10 yards off track. Give me a break. If that had been Monte Carlo, I bet he would have made the corner.
He had no intention of making the corner, no wonder Red Bull won't release Max's on board footage.
He just hates being overtaken by anyone, even if the guy is a lap behind him.
If someone tries to pass him on the inside, he forces them off the track, if they try to pass him on the outside, he forces them off the track and if they try and pass him on the straight, he weaves.
I think (hope) with the new engine, Hamilton will just manage to win championship no. 8 and then retire, healthy and wealthy. He's got plenty of other interests/causes to keep him busy.


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## Smiffy (Nov 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			They already have it,* its called Formula E, and its, well, shite*...
		
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It is indeed. 
With a capital S.
An underlined, bold and italicized S
Like this* S*


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## Dando (Nov 16, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			It is indeed. 
With a capital S.
An underlined, bold and italicized S
Like this* S*

Click to expand...

Not a fan?


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## Pants (Nov 16, 2021)

Don't sit on the fence Smiffy.  Say what you really think lol.


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## Smiffy (Nov 16, 2021)

Pants said:



			Don't sit on the fence Smiffy.  Say what you really think lol.
		
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Well it is shite, isn't it??
Like watching milk floats racing against each other.
They'd actually be more exciting as they only have three wheels so would go over quite easily...🤔🤔🤔


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## Beedee (Nov 16, 2021)

I was trying to think why it's so bad - and it really is that bad!  The cars look quite cool.  There's some very decent drivers.  So why so bad?

The sound is off-putting, so I tried once to watch with the sound down and some loud music on.  It was still really uninvolving.  Still felt more like scalectrix than motorsport.

I think the really artificial tracks don't help either.  Most of them tend to look like temporary go-kart layouts.  Maybe they should try proper circuits.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2021)

Beedee said:



			I was trying to think why it's so bad - and it really is that bad!  The cars look quite cool.  There's some very decent drivers.  So why so bad?

The sound is off-putting, so I tried once to watch with the sound down and some loud music on.  It was still really uninvolving.  Still felt more like scalectrix than motorsport.

I think the really artificial tracks don't help either.  Most of them tend to look like temporary go-kart layouts.  Maybe they should try proper circuits.
		
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They did and they all ran out of battery.


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## Piece (Nov 16, 2021)

Camera footage from Verstappen's car has now been released. It's clear that Max knows Hamilton is overtaking him as he is constantly looking in this right mirror. He conveniently left his braking too late in order to push Hamilton off. He knew what he was doing and has gotten away with it.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2021)

The missing footage of max v Lewis has appeared.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/missing-max-verstappen-on-board-footage-released/

Seems like a clear penalty to me.


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## Wabinez (Nov 16, 2021)

Piece said:



			Camera footage from Verstappen's car has now been released. It's clear that Max knows Hamilton is overtaking him as he is constantly looking in this right mirror. He conveniently left his braking too late in order to push Hamilton off. He knew what he was doing and has gotten away with it.
		
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Yup. Masi has apparently said if they had that footage, max would have received a penalty.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 16, 2021)

Surely grounds for a retrospective grid penalty then?


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## BiMGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Surely grounds for a retrospective grid penalty then?
		
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If the boot was on the other foot. Redbull would be asking for it to be reviewed. A nice 5 place grid penalty for Max would add a nice touch of spice to the next race.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			This aged well

Including the Sprint Race, I think Hamilton overtook about 25-27 cars (including Verstappen twice, and thankfully only rammed off the track on one of those occasions). He wouldn't have done that at Monaco, a track where your comment would have been a sound one.
		
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Other than Lewis, was there much overtaking? 

Im delighted to be wrong about Hamilton, but I'm still not convinced Interlagos is an easy circuit to overtake on. Cars (other than LH) needed to be within about 0.4 coming out of the final turn to get the job done, which is pretty tough to do through the twisty midsection.

I'll make sure to trawl back through your posts and find some examples of when you've got something wrong, seeing as that's your style. Look out for the red symbol in the top right of your screen over the next few days.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 16, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Other than Lewis, was there much overtaking?

Im delighted to be wrong about Hamilton, but I'm still not convinced Interlagos is an easy circuit to overtake on. Cars (other than LH) needed to be within about 0.4 coming out of the final turn to get the job done, which is pretty tough to do through the twisty midsection.

I'll make sure to trawl back through your posts and find some examples of when you've got something wrong, seeing as that's your style. Look out for the red symbol in the top right of your screen over the next few days.
		
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You took that to heart


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## theoneandonly (Nov 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			If the boot was on the other foot. Redbull would be asking for it to be reviewed. A nice 5 place grid penalty for Max would add a nice touch of spice to the next race.
		
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Merc have requested it be reviewed.... watch this space.... he'll probably get away with it though


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## cliveb (Nov 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			The missing footage of max v Lewis has appeared.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/missing-max-verstappen-on-board-footage-released/

Click to expand...

Looks pretty conclusive that Max chose not to turn in until after he'd forced Lewis wide. At no point did he open the steering - he just chose not to apply any until very late. That's less of a slam-dunk than had he deliberately wound off the lock. Max is certainly a cunning operator.

One possible penalty that's been touted is a retrospective 5sec penalty on his race time, which interestingly would bring Bottas up to 2nd place (he was about 3 secs behind Max at the end).
I suspect that if any penalty is handed out, this would be preferable to Merc over say a 3 place grid penalty at the next race, because Max will easily overcome that against all other cars except Lewis and he'll also lose 3 points from Brazil.

The other thing that struck me about the onboard footage was the audio: that Honda engine sounds like a bag of nails compared to the Mercedes.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Merc have requested it be reviewed.... watch this space.... he'll probably get away with it though
		
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If they didn't give him a grid pen next race a retrospective 5 sec pen would move Bottas up to second. But yeah I doubt the FIA have the balls to do it, the flooding in Milton Keynes would be too much to risk...

Edit - posted at the same time as cliveb


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Yup. Masi has apparently said if they had that footage, max would have received a penalty.
		
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Why didn't the stewards have that footage available to them while making their decision?


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## Wabinez (Nov 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why didn't the stewards have that footage available to them while making their decision?
		
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The footage wasn’t being broadcast at the time. The onboard camera was facing the other way. I imagine they can’t have access to every single camera angle - the amount of screens, data bandwidth etc would be insane.

It wasn’t until the data was downloaded from MV’s car that they then can view it


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## Smiffy (Nov 17, 2021)

You couldn't make it up!!............


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## Wabinez (Nov 17, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			You couldn't make it up!!............

View attachment 39537

Click to expand...


I assume you read the stewards names at the bottom….


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## Smiffy (Nov 17, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			I assume you read the stewards names at the bottom….
		
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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

Footage out from the onboards … 
Looks like some have let their emotions get the better of them. 
Max stopped Lewis chopping across him at entry and it was too quick to take a clean line through the corner .. Lewis was wise to not engage and knew the corner would be given to Max had a contact taken place and both cars being retired. 
Best decision by Lewis, get him cleanly later, bit of patience works wonders.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Footage out from the onboards …
Looks like some have let their emotions get the better of them.
Max stopped Lewis chopping across him at entry and it was too quick to take a clean line through the corner .. Lewis was wise to not engage and knew the corner would be given to Max had a contact taken place and both cars being retired.
Best decision by Lewis, get him cleanly later, bit of patience works wonders.
		
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Lewis was ahead of Max. There used to be a rule where you had to give you opponent a cars width, but I guess that doesn't apply anymore, at least to Max. Not only did Max not give Hamilton any room, he basically committed himself to ramming him off the track if Lewis did not go off the track himself. Max didn't even give himself room. He was able to perfectly negotiate that corner every lap up to that point. A point that was already made, had they been at Monaco I'm sure he'd have found a way to keep himself on the track. However, on this occasion he drove 10 yards off the track. So, either he intentionally did this, or he is simply an awful driver when it comes to being put under pressure. When under pressure, he can no longer control himself and stay on the track.

Basically, he knew Hamilton was quicker than him and was likely to pass him at some point. If he took them both out of the race, it would be to his advantage. If he took Lewis out of the race only, even better. The only risk would be he took himself out of the race and Lewis managed to keep going, but I guess he perceived that to be a small enough risk. I agree though, excellent driving by Lewis. He knows what Max is all about, and he was not pig headed enough to continue to try and take the corner. Max seems to be a protected species in F1, and I honestly would not be surprised if he causes a huge accident at some point. He, and Red Bull, was happy enough to blame Lewis at Silverstone. However, on that occasion Hamilton got up the inside and the argument against Hamilton was that his turning angle was slightly off from the apex of the corner. However, Max still turned straight in on Hamilton, as if he'd just disappear from being alongside him. Had he any intelligence, he'd have given Hamilton more space. This weekend, Max was no-where near the apex, he didn't even try to turn the corner. Had Hamilton had the same lack of intelligence as Max, he'd have turned in and his car could have been flipped, given he had been so far ahead of Max at the point of him turning.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Lewis was ahead of Max. There used to be a rule where you had to give you opponent a cars width, but I guess that doesn't apply anymore, at least to Max. Not only did Max not give Hamilton any room, he basically committed himself to ramming him off the track if Lewis did not go off the track himself. Max didn't even give himself room. He was able to perfectly negotiate that corner every lap up to that point. A point that was already made, had they been at Monaco I'm sure he'd have found a way to keep himself on the track. However, on this occasion he drove 10 yards off the track. So, either he intentionally did this, or he is simply an awful driver when it comes to being put under pressure. When under pressure, he can no longer control himself and stay on the track.

Basically, he knew Hamilton was quicker than him and was likely to pass him at some point. If he took them both out of the race, it would be to his advantage. If he took Lewis out of the race only, even better. The only risk would be he took himself out of the race and Lewis managed to keep going, but I guess he perceived that to be a small enough risk. I agree though, excellent driving by Lewis. He knows what Max is all about, and he was not pig headed enough to continue to try and take the corner. Max seems to be a protected species in F1, and I honestly would not be surprised if he causes a huge accident at some point. He, and Red Bull, was happy enough to blame Lewis at Silverstone. However, on that occasion Hamilton got up the inside and the argument against Hamilton was that his turning angle was slightly off from the apex of the corner. However, Max still turned straight in on Hamilton, as if he'd just disappear from being alongside him. Had he any intelligence, he'd have given Hamilton more space. This weekend, Max was no-where near the apex, he didn't even try to turn the corner. Had Hamilton had the same lack of intelligence as Max, he'd have turned in and his car could have been flipped, given he had been so far ahead of Max at the point of him turning.
		
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That’s a bit long a response… sorry you lost me at the first 3 lines


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s a bit long a response… sorry you lost me at the first 3 lines
		
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I'll summarise, I appreciate some have a short attention span.

 Max was either out of order, or crumbles under any sort of pressure from Hamilton. Any accidents are always someone else's fault. He is the most likely driver to potentially cause someone serious harm in the future.


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## Neilds (Nov 17, 2021)

Amazes me that some people on this thread think that a driver would deliberately try and cause a crash, especially at the speeds they go in F1.  They may go to the edge, but to actually try and endanger someone's life?


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## theoneandonly (Nov 17, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Amazes me that some people on this thread think that a driver would deliberately try and cause a crash, especially at the speeds they go in F1.  They may go to the edge, but to actually try and endanger someone's life?
		
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We seen it happen many times over the years.  Whether it's all out war like senna v prost or rosberg pretending to lose control at Monaco.
Let's not start on Nelson piquet Jr....


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Amazes me that some people on this thread think that a driver would deliberately try and cause a crash, especially at the speeds they go in F1.  They may go to the edge, but to actually try and endanger someone's life?
		
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You obviously didn't watch Formula 1 when Michael Schumacher raced then, when Formula One was much more relatively dangerous than it is now. Drivers are constantly taking big risks, whether intentional or not. The speeds they go are crazy, but they're not driving a Vauxhall Corsa at 200 mph, wearing their summer golf gear. It is remarkable how they get to walk away from virtually all crashes with no impact at all, that would leave us in a million pieces if it happened to us on the local roads.


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## Neilds (Nov 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You obviously didn't watch Formula 1 when Michael Schumacher raced then, when Formula One was much more relatively dangerous than it is now. Drivers are constantly taking big risks, whether intentional or not. The speeds they go are crazy, but they're not driving a Vauxhall Corsa at 200 mph, wearing their summer golf gear. It is remarkable how they get to walk away from virtually all crashes with no impact at all, that would leave us in a million pieces if it happened to us on the local roads.
		
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I understand all that, but to say that a driver goes out to try and hurt another by forcing a crash , which might also end their own career, is crazy


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I understand all that, but to say that a driver goes out to try and hurt another by forcing a crash , which might also end their own career, is crazy
		
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No they don’t, sometimes the heat of the moment takes over, and the onboard footage shows this wasn’t one of those moments.. they are incredibly rare.
I have no affiliation to either driver, but the press like everyone getting all excited as it sells stories.. it’s all about the media coverage and audience numbers.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I understand all that, but to say that a driver goes out to try and hurt another by forcing a crash , which might also end their own career, is crazy
		
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I never said any driver deliberately tries to hurt another driver or themselves. Same as football, a player may often have no intention of hurting another player, but make a rash decision and break their leg. So, I'm saying that I believe Max makes rash decisions, he seems to get away from any form of punishment, and one day it could end up in a nasty incident.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			No they don’t, sometimes the heat of the moment takes over, and the onboard footage shows this wasn’t one of those moments.. they are incredibly rare.
I have no affiliation to either driver, but the press like everyone getting all excited as it sells stories.. it’s all about the media coverage and audience numbers.
		
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One of what moments? You don't have to swerve into someone for it to be against the rules. MV should have got a penalty for that, he made no effort to drive the corner and like several other times LH new what was coming as kept well away. Weve seen it time and time again with Max, just look at the swerving beforehand, the man is a liabilty.


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## Smiffy (Nov 17, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I understand all that, but to say that a driver goes out to try and hurt another by forcing a crash , which might also end their own career, is crazy
		
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Search YouTube for Schumacher trying to squeeze Rubens Barrichello up against the pit wall in the 2010 Hungarian Grand Prix. If they had come together at that speed, they would have both been killed.
That will show you what a nasty piece of work he was. 
Any respect I had for him disappeared that day.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			One of what moments? You don't have to swerve into someone for it to be against the rules. MV should have got a penalty for that, he made no effort to drive the corner and like several other times LH new what was coming as kept well away. Weve seen it time and time again with Max, just look at the swerving beforehand, the man is a liabilty.
		
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He missed the apex in his defence, that’s what stopped Hamilton going across him. He was ahead of Hamilton because he was later on the brakes, watch the onboard footage. By doing that he got priority into the corner, once he has priority taking the apex is a choice ( which he didn’t really have because he was a little too quick) . Hamilton has to make a decision have a crash or keep tight and take advantage which will be in the next few corners.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			He missed the apex in his defence, that’s what stopped Hamilton going across him. He was ahead of Hamilton because he was later on the brakes, watch the onboard footage. By doing that he got priority into the corner, once he has priority taking the apex is a choice ( which he didn’t really have because he was a little too quick) . Hamilton has to make a decision have a crash or keep tight and take advantage which will be in the next few corners.
		
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There are traces taken from the gps on twitter that show Max was something like 40kph (I may be well out, it’s been a long day) faster through that corner during the incident.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Max knew exactly what he was doing. A driver of his skill doesn’t make a mistake like that. I’ve also no doubt than Max would have preferably crashed and taken them both out of the race.

As for the weaving. The rule was introduced because of Max’s antics when he started in F1.

As much as I’m enjoying the battle this season, I would love to see someone stand up to Max in the final few races and let him crash into them. Bottas, I’m looking at you!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			There are traces taken from the gps on twitter that show Max was something like 40kph (I may be well out, it’s been a long day) faster through that corner during the incident.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Max knew exactly what he was doing. A driver of his skill doesn’t make a mistake like that. I’ve also no doubt than Max would have preferably crashed and taken them both out of the race.

As for the weaving. The rule was introduced because of Max’s antics when he started in F1.

As much as I’m enjoying the battle this season, I would love to see someone stand up to Max in the final few races and let him crash into them. Bottas, I’m looking at you!
		
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I don’t think his error was large, I think he meant to have priority into the corner. Hamilton was quick and left him there looking like a turnip.


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## cliveb (Nov 17, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Amazes me that some people on this thread think that a driver would deliberately try and cause a crash, especially at the speeds they go in F1.  They may go to the edge, but to actually try and endanger someone's life?
		
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Consider run of the mill road rage. People start doing really stupid (and illegal) things, but they aren't actually trying to kill the other driver.
F1 drivers are also human, and the red mist can descend.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			He missed the apex in his defence, that’s what stopped Hamilton going across him. He was ahead of Hamilton because he was later on the brakes, watch the onboard footage. By doing that he got priority into the corner, once he has priority taking the apex is a choice ( which he didn’t really have because he was a little too quick) . Hamilton has to make a decision have a crash or keep tight and take advantage which will be in the next few corners.
		
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That is an incredibly flawed argument. Otherwise you could just say that any time a driver is behind another as they approach a corner, and inside that driver, they can simply avoid breaking. Assuming the car in front wishes to take the corner, they'll break, so the following car will inevitable fly past them up the inside, or smash straight into them. 

At some point you've got to say that the following driver has some responsibility to try and take the corner, let alone avoid crowding out another driver who was in front of them and forcing them off the circuit


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			That is an incredibly flawed argument. Otherwise you could just say that any time a driver is behind another as they approach a corner, and inside that driver, they can simply avoid breaking. Assuming the car in front wishes to take the corner, they'll break, so the following car will inevitable fly past them up the inside, or smash straight into them.

At some point you've got to say that the following driver has some responsibility to try and take the corner, let alone avoid crowding out another driver who was in front of them and forcing them off the circuit
		
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It’s not flawed and it’s the way it was … watch the on boards , take screen dumps and give us the full PowerPoint on it


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I don’t think his error was large, I think he meant to have priority into the corner. Hamilton was quick and left him there looking like a turnip.
		
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I didn’t say it was a error. Quite the opposite. Max knew exactly what he was doing.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I didn’t say it was a error. Quite the opposite. Max knew exactly what he was doing.
		
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You said he was 40kph faster in … that’s too fast if the sector analysis and corner speeds were available you would see his average and fresh tyre best. He shut out Hamilton which is his right but his speed was too great to make the ideal line .. he was entitled to his line purely because he was first in .. it’s not pretty but that’s how the onboard shows it .. I am still waiting on Swango’s ppt to show otherwise , if so we can all call Verstappen a shuffler ( but not in front of dad or grandad, they are hard as nails )


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			You said he was 40kph faster in … that’s too fast if the sector analysis and corner speeds were available you would see his average and fresh tyre best. He shut out Hamilton which is his right but his speed was too great to make the ideal line .. he was entitled to his line purely because he was first in .. it’s not pretty but that’s how the onboard shows it .. I am still waiting on Swango’s ppt to show otherwise , if so we can all call Verstappen a shuffler ( but not in front of dad or grandad, they are hard as nails )
		
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His speed was too great to make the ideal line? Haha, you are a joker. He missed the outside of the bend by about 10 yards, let alone the apex. He either knew what he was doing, or is an awful driver. Either way, it isn't acceptable to be put others at risk just because you are that incompetent in taking a corner


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			You said he was 40kph faster in … that’s too fast if the sector analysis and corner speeds were available you would see his average and fresh tyre best. He shut out Hamilton which is his right but his speed was too great to make the ideal line .. he was entitled to his line purely because he was first in .. it’s not pretty but that’s how the onboard shows it .. I am still waiting on Swango’s ppt to show otherwise , if so we can all call Verstappen a shuffler ( but not in front of dad or grandad, they are hard as nails )
		
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Max had no right to that corner, and was only in front because he had no intention of taking the corner as he should. Lewis was far enough in front at the point they should have been turning in to make the corner. 
Max caused Lewis to leave the circuit, which is a clear cut breaking of the rules. Especially as Max himself ended up 4ish car widths off the circuit.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			His speed was too great to make the ideal line? Haha, you are a joker. He missed the outside of the bend by about 10 yards, let alone the apex. He either knew what he was doing, or is an awful driver. Either way, it isn't acceptable to be put others at risk just because you are that incompetent in taking a corner
		
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You need to go and drive .. then learn the margins these guys work in .. and keep the personal comments out of this.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			You need to go and drive .. then learn the margins these guys work in .. and keep the personal comments out of this.
		
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Funny, the other drivers are able to.stick to tighter margins. If we all have to go and drive an F1 car before we are allowed to comment, then we might as well scrap this forum. None of us would be allowed an opinion.


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## bobmac (Nov 18, 2021)

The only question you have to ask yourself is would Lewis have made the corner if Max wasn't there? If yes, then it's Max's fault, intentional or otherwise.
Even the commentator said he forced Lewis wide.
I just hope that unpunished move doesn't set a precedent.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 18, 2021)

The question I keep asking myself is if Lewis was ahead of Max going into the corner, why not move across and take the track, preventing Max going past? The answer that I keep coming up with was that he wasn’t fully ahead otherwise he’d have done it.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The question I keep asking myself is if Lewis was ahead of Max going into the corner, why not move across and take the track, preventing Max going past? The answer that I keep coming up with was that he wasn’t fully ahead otherwise he’d have done it.
		
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Exactly that.. Hamilton pushed Max and was sounding him out plus seeing if he could force a lock up .. it’s all part of the game.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Funny, the other drivers are able to.stick to tighter margins. If we all have to go and drive an F1 car before we are allowed to comment, then we might as well scrap this forum. None of us would be allowed an opinion.
		
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Opinion is one thing but being derogatory to other forum users is out of order. 
Throughout this thread you have let your emotions cloud your opinions, I think we all know your a Hamilton fan, and no problem with that.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The question I keep asking myself is if Lewis was ahead of Max going into the corner, why not move across and take the track, preventing Max going past? The answer that I keep coming up with was that he wasn’t fully ahead otherwise he’d have done it.
		
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Because, to take the corner Hamilton had to break. That meant Max would have rammed into the side of Hamilton, as Max decided he wasn't going to break.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Opinion is one thing but being derogatory to other forum users is out of order.
Throughout this thread you have let your emotions cloud your opinions, I think we all know your a Hamilton fan, and no problem with that.
		
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Fair enough, I'm a Hamilton fan. And I certainly have no love for Verstappen. But, if that is your counter against my argument, then there is no point is arguing the point. You might as well discuss it with neutrals, many of whom also believe Max was a lucky boy.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Because, to take the corner Hamilton had to break. That meant Max would have rammed into the side of Hamilton, as Max decided he wasn't going to break.
		
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That doesn’t look like a completed overtake to me.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:








That doesn’t look like a completed overtake to me.
		
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Only because Max didn’t try to make the corner. Lewis clearly knew what was going to happen and backed out.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Only because Max didn’t try to make the corner. Lewis clearly knew what was going to happen and backed out.
		
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Because he had not shut the door .. Max took the space and then ran them both wide as he is entitled to do.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Fair enough, I'm a Hamilton fan. And I certainly have no love for Verstappen. But, if that is your counter against my argument, then there is no point is arguing the point. You might as well discuss it with neutrals, many of whom also believe Max was a lucky boy.
		
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Your argument is flawed .. you are incorrect because your judgement is clouded by your Hamilton love or you actually misunderstand motorsport


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## BiMGuy (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Because he had not shut the door .. Max took the space and then ran them both wide as he is entitled to do.
		
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But he’s not entitled to do it in the way he did. He clearly forced another car to leave the track and then kept his position whilst doing the same.

Other drivers have been given penalties this season for much less.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			But he’s not entitled to do it in the way he did. He clearly forced another car to leave the track and then kept his position whilst doing the same.

Other drivers have been given penalties this season for much less.
		
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FIA would have reviewed post race , and made a judgement.. Mercedes would appeal if they have an issue. Then retrospective penalties would be applied.. none of the latter has happened, it’s judged to be a fair move by the ruling body, so all of our opinions are irrelevant. It’s now just media wind up and getting all the emotions up .. the fans are being milked like the cash cows they are and the twitter hits are going up 🤣💰💰💰💰


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Because he had not shut the door ..* Max took the space and then ran them both wide as he is entitled to do.*

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That statement proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Had Hamilton had tried to take the corner, Max would have wiped him out. We see drivers get penalties for that time and time again, and the stewards would have had no hiding place but to penalise Max. Max was lucky that Lewis ran himself wide to avoid the collision, and that the stewards were extremely lenient, as they often are with Max


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			FIA would have reviewed post race , and made a judgement.. Mercedes would appeal if they have an issue. Then retrospective penalties would be applied.. none of the latter has happened, it’s judged to be a fair move by the ruling body, so all of our opinions are irrelevant. It’s now just media wind up and getting all the emotions up .. the fans are being milked like the cash cows they are and the twitter hits are going up 🤣💰💰💰💰
		
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Mercedes have asked for a review of the decision, I believe the hearing is as 2pm today.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Mercedes have asked for a review of the decision, I believe the hearing is as 2pm today.
		
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Then the debate will be ended with the judgement.. and you can all run around shouting I told you so


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## BiMGuy (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			FIA would have reviewed post race , and made a judgement.. Mercedes would appeal if they have an issue. Then retrospective penalties would be applied.. none of the latter has happened, it’s judged to be a fair move by the ruling body, so all of our opinions are irrelevant. It’s now just media wind up and getting all the emotions up .. the fans are being milked like the cash cows they are and the twitter hits are going up 🤣💰💰💰💰
		
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There wouldn’t be much of a form if we didn’t discuss things we have a difference of opinion on.

The decision not to investigate the incident was 100% about extending the show.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Then the debate will be ended with the judgement.. and you can all run around shouting I told you so
		
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Not my style, and whatever decision is made you can never guarantee the officials make the right one. We see this all the time in many sports. I can see them not overturning their decision. I am more intrigued as to what precedent that sets for any driver doing the same in the future, whether they take out the driver on the outside or not.

Had Max gone wide to the outside of the bend, and pushed Hamilton off the track, I'd have thought he'd normally get penalised, as there are strict rules in not crowding out a driver, gibing them a car width, etc. However, I could also see the argument that is was a racing incident, and I'd get your argument about the fine margins involved. When he ended several car widths off the track himself, I cannot accept that argument anymore, and if it is acceptable then rules do not apply if you are the following driver with the inside line. You can just forget about your braking point aim to obstruct the wider driver's line into the corner.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not my style, and whatever decision is made you can never guarantee the officials make the right one. We see this all the time in many sports. I can see them not overturning their decision. I am more intrigued as to what precedent that sets for any driver doing the same in the future, whether they take out the driver on the outside or not.

Had Max gone wide to the outside of the bend, and pushed Hamilton off the track, I'd have thought he'd normally get penalised, as there are strict rules in not crowding out a driver, gibing them a car width, etc. However, I could also see the argument that is was a racing incident, and I'd get your argument about the fine margins involved. When he ended several car widths off the track himself, I cannot accept that argument anymore, and if it is acceptable then rules do not apply if you are the following driver with the inside line. You can just forget about your braking point aim to obstruct the wider driver's line into the corner.
		
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Watch Max’s car and his steering inputs ..
Another interesting observation was that most of other drivers did not put up any form defence .. Which kind of sums up F1, DRS and fixed engine regs


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Watch Max’s car and his steering inputs ..
Another interesting observation was that most of other drivers did not put up any form defence .. Which kind of sums up F1, DRS and fixed engine regs
		
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It is true, they did not. They had no defence, the Mercedes was much quicker. The defence is to force the overtaking driver to take as wide a line as possible, and keep them wide by taking the inside of the corner. Or, let them charge up the inside so that they exit the corner wide, hoping to get back up the inside of them after exiting the corner. Both may be futile options if the overtaking car is much quicker, but it at least makes it trickier for them. Max did neither. Would he have done the same thing if there was a wall on the outside of the bend, or a tyre barrier? I doubt it, he would have gone straight into it himself. 

Can we analyse Max's braking inputs, I assume that is relevant?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It is true, they did not. They had no defence, the Mercedes was much quicker. The defence is to force the overtaking driver to take as wide a line as possible, and keep them wide by taking the inside of the corner. Or, let them charge up the inside so that they exit the corner wide, hoping to get back up the inside of them after exiting the corner. Both may be futile options if the overtaking car is much quicker, but it at least makes it trickier for them. Max did neither. Would he have done the same thing if there was a wall on the outside of the bend, or a tyre barrier? I doubt it, he would have gone straight into it himself.

Can we analyse Max's braking inputs, I assume that is relevant?
		
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They will have all the car data , and they will also have an under steer measurement based on angle of input and gps. 
The other counter point is would Hamilton go up the outside if a barrier was there and not run off ? 
Wait and see what the judgement is.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			They will have all the car data , and they will also have an under steer measurement based on angle of input and gps.
*The other counter point is would Hamilton go up the outside if a barrier was there and not run off *?
Wait and see what the judgement is.
		
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No, but as others have said, that is not the question. The question is, would Hamilton have made the corner had Max not charged up the inside of him? It looked like he was making it just fine, and then had to turn out of it to avoid Max. There is no rule to say drivers should not overtake on the outside of another driver if there is a barrier, so it is not really a counter argument.

I've little issue in steering, I'm more interested in braking. If a driver fails to brake in time, they can do what they like with the steering, they are not going to make the corner.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 18, 2021)

I don't understand your point of view on this, Harpo, or those questioning whether Lewis was past Verstappen.

In my mind it's very clear, if Verstappen had braked sufficiently to make the corner (i.e. stay on the circuit), he would have been a car length behind Hamilton from the middle of the turn all the way through to the exit. As such, by braking so late that he did not make the corner, and in the process forcing Hamilton off too, Verstappen gained an advantage by leaving the circuit. If he hadn't left the circuit, he would have been behind Hamilton.

For what it's worth, I don't think Verstappen meant to go off the track, he meant to try and outbreak Hamilton and reclaim the corner. The lack of tyre grip then caused him to run wide. It was a risky decision from him, but I don't think there was any intention to cause a collision, it's just his all or nothing style. He will learn in time that it's not the best way to win championships - for every 7 points it gains, there will be incidents that needlessly result in him not finishing the race.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No, but as others have said, that is not the question. The question is, would Hamilton have made the corner had Max not charged up the inside of him? It looked like he was making it just fine, and then had to turn out of it to avoid Max. There is no rule to say drivers should not overtake on the outside of another driver if there is a barrier, so it is not really a counter argument.

I've little issue in steering, I'm more interested in braking. If a driver fails to brake in time, they can do what they like with the steering, they are not going to make the corner.
		
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Don’t think you can cherry pick the data both sides will present their data the way they want and the FIA will analyse it from their perspective. 
They will see both drivers brakes at different points to their average through the stint. But given the corners nature you will see a variation and if your good you will see a trend. Fuel load and tyre life are critical but people forget the brake life and balance. 
So if you consider all these facts , you would say Max’s mistake was viable and running wide was a consequence. The next question is did he try and overcome the running wide .. so you look at steering inputs and suspension loads .. 
Or you can ask if Hamilton thought it was a realistic opportunity and give him the full forensic study …


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Don’t think you can cherry pick the data both sides will present their data the way they want and the FIA will analyse it from their perspective.
They will see both drivers brakes at different points to their average through the stint. But given the corners nature you will see a variation and if your good you will see a trend. Fuel load and tyre life are critical but people forget the brake life and balance.
So if you consider all these facts , you would say Max’s mistake was viable and running wide was a consequence. The next question is did he try and overcome the running wide .. so you look at steering inputs and suspension loads ..
Or you can ask if Hamilton thought it was a realistic opportunity and give him the full forensic study …
		
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Simple question, had Verstappen applied the brakes in time to make the corner, who would have been ahead? If the answer is Hamilton, then Verstappen gained an advantage from leaving the circuit. 

Perhaps I'm being simple, when I look at the footage, there's no question that Verstappen only gets back up the inside because he brakes too late to make the corner.

That said, I think the decision will go Red Bull's way as I don't think there's anything new in the images to overturn the incorrect decision made during the race. If the footage had shown Verstappen opening up the steering, that would be different, but it doesn't. We all knew he made a pigs ear of the corner when we watched the race on Sunday.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I don't understand your point of view on this, Harpo, or those questioning whether Lewis was past Verstappen.

In my mind it's very clear, if Verstappen had braked sufficiently to make the corner (i.e. stay on the circuit), he would have been a car length behind Hamilton from the middle of the turn all the way through to the exit. As such, by braking so late that he did not make the corner, and in the process forcing Hamilton off too, Verstappen gained an advantage by leaving the circuit. If he hadn't left the circuit, he would have been behind Hamilton.

For what it's worth, I don't think Verstappen meant to go off the track, he meant to try and outbreak Hamilton and reclaim the corner. The lack of tyre grip then caused him to run wide. It was a risky decision from him, but I don't think there was any intention to cause a collision, it's just his all or nothing style. He will learn in time that it's not the best way to win championships - for every 7 points it gains, there will be incidents that needlessly result in him not finishing the race.
		
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My view point is Max defended his position and because he had entry what he does in the corner dictates to all that follow him.. and Hamilton realised this backed out and allowed the ensuing mess to happen, without picking up damage.
You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing? 
If the ruling is in Mercedes favour today, we will never see any defensive driving in the future.


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## Piece (Nov 18, 2021)

Nothing I've read on this forum or seen from the footage changes my mind that MV knew that Hamilton was going to overtake him and therefore conveniently held his line knowing that he was going to overrun the corner and leave it to Hamilton to either crash or run even wider. Based on other incidents throughout the season, MV will do well to avoid a penalty, IMHO.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Don’t think you can cherry pick the data both sides will present their data the way they want and the FIA will analyse it from their perspective.
They will see both drivers brakes at different points to their average through the stint. But given the corners nature you will see a variation and if your good you will see a trend. Fuel load and tyre life are critical but people forget the brake life and balance.
So if you consider all these facts , you would say *Max’s mistake* was viable and running wide was a consequence. The next question is did he try and overcome the running wide .. so you look at steering inputs and suspension loads ..
Or you can ask if Hamilton thought it was a realistic opportunity and give him the full forensic study …
		
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So, you acknowledge Max made a mistake. A mistake he benefited from at the expense of Hamilton. That is all I needed to know.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Simple question, had Verstappen applied the brakes in time to make the corner, who would have been ahead? If the answer is Hamilton, then Verstappen gained an advantage from leaving the circuit.

Perhaps I'm being simple, when I look at the footage, there's no question that Verstappen only gets back up the inside because he brakes too late to make the corner.

That said, I think the decision will go Red Bull's way as I don't think there's anything new in the images to overturn the incorrect decision made during the race. If the footage had shown Verstappen opening up the steering, that would be different, but it doesn't. We all knew he made a pigs ear of the corner when we watched the race on Sunday.
		
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Hamilton was looking to cut across from a wide line to the apex... by doing so he would have stymied Max entry speed and put time between himself and Max. 
Max opted to carry more speed and have a wider exit (probably not as wide as he got) this would have bulked Hamilton and bought respite. 
He looks like he made a mess of it and it was messy but he reacted to it by putting more steering angle. He put one wheel onto the marbles and you see the car react accordingly, from there on out it’s a clean up job.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, you acknowledge Max made a mistake. A mistake he benefited from at the expense of Hamilton. That is all I needed to know.
		
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Said that right at the beginning.. it’s just because he had entry he was entitled to that mistake without penalty. 
Your arguing for a penalty because he did not submit, you don’t want to see a race. I suggest you watch buses and pick a favourite.. you can even get a ride on it


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## Piece (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			My view point is Max defended his position and because he had entry what he does in the corner dictates to all that follow him.. and Hamilton realised this backed out and allowed the ensuing mess to happen, without picking up damage.
You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing?
If the ruling is in Mercedes favour today, we will never see any defensive driving in the future.
		
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The point is that Hamilton was the one that was going to make the corner. Max didn't make the corner and didn't want to because he knew where Hamilton was going to be. There was no locking of brakes which would have indicated he misjudged the corner. 

Semi-serious point - perhaps Bottas could learn from MV here!


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			My view point is Max defended his position and because he had entry what he does in the corner dictates to all that follow him.. and Hamilton realised this backed out and allowed the ensuing mess to happen, without picking up damage.
You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing?
If the ruling is in Mercedes favour today, we will never see any defensive driving in the future.
		
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Your argument is undermined by Max not making the corner. 

My argument isn't that he should have braked earlier and given the corner to hamilton, it's that he should have braked in time to make the turn without going off the circuit.


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## bobmac (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			You are entitled to contest the entry to a corner, but what I see here and also your statement was no he should have braked earlier and given the corner to Hamilton- is that racing?
		
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No, he should have braked earlier and stayed within track limits.
Just because you don't wont to lose the corner, doesn't mean you can break the rules to do so.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Said that right at the beginning.. it’s just because he had entry he was entitled to that mistake without penalty.
Your arguing for a penalty because he did not submit, you don’t want to see a race. I suggest you watch buses and pick a favourite.. you can even get a ride on it
		
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So, to be clear, your argument is that drivers can make the mistake of completely failing to take a corner, potentially causing a crash if the driver in front does not take avoiding action? And that is racing? I'm not even sure that is acceptable in go karting.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, to be clear, your argument is that drivers can make the mistake of completely failing to take a corner, potentially causing a crash if the driver in front does not take avoiding action? And that is racing? I'm not even sure that is acceptable in go karting.
		
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Your suggestion is he just rammed Hamilton , correct? You are saying he deliberately went to hit Hamilton and lap 48 was his earliest opportunity to do so and he categorically missed every opportunity up until lap 59 when he was passed… You are also concluding Hamilton would have made the corner cleanly, without chopping Max’s nose cone off ( by the way he is allowed to do that but it’s a pointless thing to do as he may ruin his own race)


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No, he should have braked earlier and stayed within track limits.
Just because you don't wont to lose the corner, doesn't mean you can break the rules to do so.
		
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Bob on entry he hadn’t broken any rules .. that’s the point, in the mid it’s a clusterf**k but that’s irrelevant


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Your suggestion is he just rammed Hamilton , correct? You are saying he deliberately went to hit Hamilton and lap 48 was his earliest opportunity to do so and he categorically missed every opportunity up until lap 59 when he was passed… You are also concluding Hamilton would have made the corner cleanly, without chopping Max’s nose cone off ( by the way he is allowed to do that but it’s a pointless thing to do as he may ruin his own race)
		
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No, not at all. I'm not saying Max actively steered into Lewis. He could have done that as soon as Lewis was alongside him if he wanted to do that.

I'm saying he failed to take the corner by not applying the brakes. He either accepted he'd crash into the side of Hamilton if he did not yield, push them both off track if Hamilton did yield, or simply got it completely wrong in terms of braking. Whichever of those options, Max needs to take responsibility.

In terms of Lewis turning into the corner, are you trying to say Lewis is not entitled to take the corner? Max would have had plenty of space to take that corner had he used his brakes in time. He didn't. If you think it is acceptable what Max did, that is actually going to kill racing. Because no one will ever try and overtake on the outside again, because they know the guy on the inside is allowed to ram them off the track by not braking.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Piece said:



			The point is that Hamilton was the one that was going to make the corner. Max didn't make the corner and didn't want to because he knew where Hamilton was going to be. There was no locking of brakes which would have indicated he misjudged the corner.

Semi-serious point - perhaps Bottas could learn from MV here!
		
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That’s a bit hypothetical , we don’t know that for sure. Hamilton had not done enough in this effort, but had Max capitulated would Hamilton’s line been good enough to stay inside the circuit confines ( which brings me back to an earlier point would he have tried if there was no run off) . If there was any brake locking, the car would not turn


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No, not at all. I'm not saying Max actively steered into Lewis. He could have done that as soon as Lewis was alongside him if he wanted to do that.

I'm saying he failed to take the corner by not applying the brakes. He either accepted he'd crash into the side of Hamilton if he did not yield, push them both off track if Hamilton did yield, or simply got it completely wrong in terms of braking. Whichever of those options, Max needs to take responsibility.

In terms of Lewis turning into the corner, are you trying to say Lewis is not entitled to take the corner? Max would have had plenty of space to take that corner had he used his brakes in time. He didn't. If you think it is acceptable what Max did, that is actually going to kill racing. Because no one will ever try and overtake on the outside again, because they know the guy on the inside is allowed to ram them off the track by not braking.
		
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Lewis is entitled but he did not do it as in turn across Max … which was wise as they would be having a fight on the run off as the cars were untangled


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s a bit hypothetical , we don’t know that for sure. Hamilton had not done enough in this effort, but had Max capitulated would Hamilton’s line been good enough to stay inside the circuit confines ( which brings me back to an earlier point would he have tried if there was no run off) . If there was any brake locking, the car would not turn
		
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I think I can see some excellent new tactics becoming available under Harpo's rules for F1.

Defence tactic: Always defend the inside and don't bother applying the brakes as the car behind attacks the outside. Just carry on off the track and take the car on the outside with you until you've redefined the corner to your satisfaction and rejoin the circuit at your leisure.

Overtaking tactic: Lick a stamp and send it up the inside, from as far back as you want, don't bother trying to make the corner, as with the defence tactic, because you've entered the corner 50mph too fast, you're now ahead and are free to redefine where the corner is. Rejoin the circuit at your leisure with at least one place gained.


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## bobmac (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Bob on entry he hadn’t broken any rules .. that’s the point, in the mid it’s a clusterf**k but that’s irrelevant
		
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I didn't say that.
He forced a driver off the track by exceeding the speed required to successfully negotiate the corner without exceeding track limits


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## Piece (Nov 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s a bit hypothetical , we don’t know that for sure. Hamilton had not done enough in this effort, but had Max capitulated would Hamilton’s line been good enough to stay inside the circuit confines ( which brings me back to an earlier point would he have tried if there was no run off) . If there was any brake locking, the car would not turn
		
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Hamilton had done enough to take the corner legitimately as his double manoeuvre showed (one to turn in correctly, the other to avoid contact).


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## SaintHacker (Nov 18, 2021)

Red bulls reaction on the radio (its all about letting them race) and then conveniently not having the onboard footage sums it up for me, Max messed up and they know it.


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## cliveb (Nov 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Red bulls reaction on the radio (its all about letting them race) and then conveniently not having the onboard footage sums it up for me, Max messed up and they know it.
		
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Indeed. The fact that RB were on the radio to the FIA straight away, using the "let them race" angle, means they knew straight away that Max had been a naughty boy.

The thing that bothers me more, though, is that it appears RB praised Max after the race.
Once again they failed to tell him that he's ****ed up, and so once again he won't learn.
It seems that the only person allowed to tell Max off is his dad.


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2021)

Apparently turn 4 at Interlagos is to be renamed The Verstappen Striaght.............


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2021)

Just seen that Leclerc has said he is awaiting the final outcome of the stewards decision on the Verstappen incident. If it is not overturned, he will change his driving style accordingly, admitting it would make it very difficult to overtake on the outside in the future. Interesting perspective from another driver, and certainly feels like it would kill "racing" rather than make it better. Also suggests he felt it should be illegal, as if he thought it was legal he'd have no need to change his driving style.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Decision tomorrow as to whether to review the original decision… https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...of-review-request.5Ikdh8jcV2S2NIA47QH5Hb.html


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## woofers (Nov 18, 2021)

I occasionally tune in to F1 as its getting bit more interesting now than of late (I am from the Mansell, Prost, Senna era) and will probably watch the remaining GPs. 
Are there no penalties for exceeding track limits? In Moto GP bike racing if you exceed track limits, however marginal, 3? times you get a warning, do it again and you get a ‘long lap’ penalty.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 18, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Indeed. The fact that RB were on the radio to the FIA straight away, using the "let them race" angle, means they knew straight away that Max had been a naughty boy.

The thing that bothers me more, though, is that it appears RB praised Max after the race.
*Once again they failed to tell him that he's ****ed up, and so once again he won't learn.*
It seems that the only person allowed to tell Max off is his dad.
		
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When have you ever heard a decent manager hang a team member out to dry in public?

If he's going to be bolllocked it will be off air.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			When have you ever heard a decent manager hang a team member out to dry in public?

If he's going to be blocked it will be off air.
		
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Precisely that , you don’t wash the laundry in public. But the telling part of all this was the casual dismissal by Hamilton of the whole proceedings.

Nor has anyone looked at the video and seen the speed deficits through the corner or remarked on the DRS closing up and loss of 30kph on entry .. really highlighted Hamilton’s braking visually.


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## Beedee (Nov 18, 2021)

woofers said:



			I occasionally tune in to F1 as its getting bit more interesting now than of late (I am from the Mansell, Prost, Senna era) and will probably watch the remaining GPs.
Are there no penalties for exceeding track limits? In Moto GP bike racing if you exceed track limits, however marginal, 3? times you get a warning, do it again and you get a ‘long lap’ penalty.
		
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In F1, _sometimes_, the stewards declare that particular corners are subject to track limits.  In qualifying any lap that breaches track limits get disqualified.  In the race, your get 2 or 3 wrist slaps before an official warning.  After the warning is a time penalty.  The definition of the track also varies from circuit to circuit.  At some the track is defined by the white line.  At some the track is defined by the farthest extent of the kerb.  It's a complete mess.

Personal opinion only, _any_ lap that breaches _any_ track limits should be subject to review.  If the driver keeps their foot in then it should be a warning/penalty.  The stewards say that on some corners there's no benefit from going wide.  Well in that case why do the drivers do it lap after lap?  There's a benefit!!  If there wasn't they wouldn't keep doing it!!


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2021)

Mmm, Hamilton got Copse wrong at Silverstone, ran wide and Verstappen hit him. Verstappen pulls the same(Hamilton) manoeuvre at Interlago, up the inside, and it’s ok?


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## Beedee (Nov 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, Hamilton got Copse wrong at Silverstone, ran wide and Verstappen hit him. Verstappen pulls the same(Hamilton) manoeuvre at Interlago, up the inside, and it’s ok?
		
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At Silverstone, Hamilton missed the apex slightly - he didn't miss the entire track!  At Inter Lagos, Verstappen wasn't even close to making the corner (and Verstappen is far too good a driver to think that he didn't realise that going into that corner on the dirty side of the track at that speed wouldn't result in leaving the track at the absolute minimum)

At Silverstone, Verstappen could easily have run slightly wide and avoided the crash.  He chose not to.  He always chooses not to.  His entire approach is I AM putting my car here; if you don't want a crash then YOU must give way.  It didn't work for him at Silverstone.  At Inter Lagos, Hamilton chose to avoid the crash.

Same at Monza.  Hamilton had the corner at the first chicane. Verstappen doesn't give way when he had zero chance of making the corner.  Result = another collision and Hamilton gets a car on his head.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Just seen that Leclerc has said he is awaiting the final outcome of the stewards decision on the Verstappen incident. If it is not overturned, he will change his driving style accordingly, admitting it would make it very difficult to overtake on the outside in the future. Interesting perspective from another driver, and certainly feels like it would kill "racing" rather than make it better. Also suggests he felt it should be illegal, as if he thought it was legal he'd have no need to change his driving style.
		
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And there lies the problem.
The stewards won't want to admit they were wrong but if they don't give Max a penalty of some sort, it's open season.
I predict Bottas will push Max off the track on the first lap at turn 1 on Sunday.


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## Smiffy (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I predict Bottas will push Max off the track on the first lap at turn 1 on Sunday.
		
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He hasn't got the minerals Bob.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

Beedee said:



			At Silverstone, Hamilton missed the apex slightly - he didn't miss the entire track!  At Inter Lagos, Verstappen wasn't even close to making the corner (and Verstappen is far too good a driver to think that he didn't realise that going into that corner on the dirty side of the track at that speed wouldn't result in leaving the track at the absolute minimum)

At Silverstone, Verstappen could easily have run slightly wide and avoided the crash.  He chose not to.  He always chooses not to.  His entire approach is I AM putting my car here; if you don't want a crash then YOU must give way.  It didn't work for him at Silverstone.  At Inter Lagos, Hamilton chose to avoid the crash.

Same at Monza.  Hamilton had the corner at the first chicane. Verstappen doesn't give way when he had zero chance of making the corner.  Result = another collision and Hamilton gets a car on his head.
		
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Exactly this. And, despite Hamilton only slightly missing the apex, and Verstappen being stupid enough to turn in and assume Hamilton would suddenly vanish into thin air, Red Bull and Max were furious with Hamilton. It was all Hamilton's fault, Max even accused Hamilton of no class when he celebrates his win while Max was in hospital (despite Hamilton being completely oblivious to this fact straight after the win). How their view changes when golden boy Max decides to pretty much go straight on to run them both off the track.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Decision tomorrow as to whether to review the original decision… https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...of-review-request.5Ikdh8jcV2S2NIA47QH5Hb.html

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I've just read that again....
They are going to announce their decision today whether or not they are going to investigate the incident.
Luckily for them they've got loads of time before the next GP


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And there lies the problem.
The stewards won't want to admit they were wrong but if they don't give Max a penalty of some sort, it's open season.
I predict Bottas will push Max off the track on the first lap at turn 1 on Sunday.
		
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Absolutely. All it does is tell drivers they can charge up the inside and force themselves and the driver on the outside off the track. As harpo says, they are entitled to make that "mistake".

Interesting to hear some other driver views. Russell says it was OK in end as Lewis won, but had he finished second it would have been a travesty. 

Saw an interview with Montoya, who basically said that he believed Max did it intentionally, knowing that even a crash would be to his benefit. So, when people on this forum cannot comprehend the fact drivers will happily risk a crash, it is interesting to hear someone like Montoya say it like it is. None of us, I assume, have experienced being a formula 1 driver, we can only speak on what we have seen over the years. But I assume Montoya is qualified enough to state that drivers will take risks that could well end in a crash, and even see a crash as a positive outcome.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've just read that again....
They are going to announce their decision today whether or not they are going to investigate the incident.
Luckily for them they've got loads of time before the next GP


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In a way, I hope they don't investigate it. I can see it setting a precedent that is going to come back and bite them in the backside. Nothing like controversy to spice things up. Will Perez acceptably ram Hamilton out of a race. Will Bottas ram Verstappen out of a race. Each team will have a star driver to try and win the race, and a bruiser driver to try and take out the star drivers of other teams. Going to be great


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Exactly this. And, despite Hamilton only slightly missing the apex, and Verstappen being stupid enough to turn in and assume Hamilton would suddenly vanish into thin air, Red Bull and Max were furious with Hamilton. It was all Hamilton's fault, Max even accused Hamilton of no class when he celebrates his win while Max was in hospital (despite Hamilton being completely oblivious to this fact straight after the win). How their view changes when golden boy Max decides to pretty much go straight on to run them both off the track.
		
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Max shutting the door on Ocon who was a lap behind him.
The pink car was given a 10 second penalty for causing Max to drive into him.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Max shutting the door on Ocon who was a lap behind him.
The pink car was given a 10 second penalty for causing Max to drive into him.

View attachment 39563

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Classic Max. It is like he is the only guy on the race track, in that he expects everyone to disappear. Quick driver, absolutely. Good racer, not at all in my opinion. We see much better racing between many drivers much further down the grid.  He is so far over the threshold between confidence and arrogance, and he has a team that constantly treat him like a spoilt child and tell him how fantastic he is. I think Red Bull are scared of upsetting him. I do not think that they ever reprimand him at all, otherwise he wouldn't come across so arrogant in every interview. Even this weekend, he simply explains the Mercedes appeal as a consequence that they got lots of penalties, and are trying to get some sort of revenge. Had Red Bull privately told him he was a very lucky boy and to not do it again, he'd at least come across as more humble, without actually needing to own up that is waa a mistake to the press


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## cliveb (Nov 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			When have you ever heard a decent manager hang a team member out to dry in public?

If he's going to be bolllocked it will be off air.
		
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In principle that's a good point.
But the whole air of the way Red Bull talk to and about Max tells me that they regard him as some kind of golden boy who Shall Not Be Criticised. If Horner or Marko have ever taken him aside and given him a dressing down, he doesn't seem to have listened.
(Incidentally, I can recall occasions when the Merc management - especially Lauda - have publicly criticised their drivers, eg. after the Hamilton/Rosberg crash in Spain)


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			He hasn't got the minerals Bob.
		
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There might be a queue of volunteers who have


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Max shutting the door on Ocon who was a lap behind him.
The pink car was given a 10 second penalty for causing Max to drive into him.

View attachment 39563

Click to expand...

Ocon ignored the blue flag, he then presented himself as an obstacle.. he was at fault. Max is impatient for sure and should have let the officials deal with it but if he was running away or chasing down it’s a nuisance (think that was a Mercedes powered car as well) that cannot take time to be resolved


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Absolutely. All it does is tell drivers they can charge up the inside and force themselves and the driver on the outside off the track. As harpo says, they are entitled to make that "mistake".

Interesting to hear some other driver views. Russell says it was OK in end as Lewis won, but had he finished second it would have been a travesty.

Saw an interview with Montoya, who basically said that he believed Max did it intentionally, knowing that even a crash would be to his benefit. So, when people on this forum cannot comprehend the fact drivers will happily risk a crash, it is interesting to hear someone like Montoya say it like it is. None of us, I assume, have experienced being a formula 1 driver, we can only speak on what we have seen over the years. But I assume Montoya is qualified enough to state that drivers will take risks that could well end in a crash, and even see a crash as a positive outcome.
		
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Montoya as a voice of reason ? Really ? Come on, look at this guy’s history and behaviour. I particularly like the outburst about how he was going to kill the camera man he walked into because he “broke” his head ..


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Montoya as a voice of reason ? Really ? Come on, look at this guy’s history and behaviour. I particularly like the outburst about how he was going to kill the camera man he walked into because he “broke” his head ..
		
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Always have a reason why someone's opinion are invalid. On this forum, our opinion needs to be treated with caution as we've never been in that position (have any of us, regardless of what side of the fence we're on?). With Montoya, you throw something else at him. However, interestingly your point almost kills some of the supportive arguments for Max. Because, if Montoya has had a dodgy "history and behaviour", then it stands to reason he is not the only driver in this position. Therefore, Max Verstappen could well be developing a similar track record of dodgy behaviour that will be frowned upon when we look back on it and view it as history.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Ocon ignored the blue flag, he then presented himself as an obstacle.. he was at fault. Max is impatient for sure and should have let the officials deal with it but if he was running away or chasing down it’s a nuisance (think that was a Mercedes powered car as well) that cannot take time to be resolved
		
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Are you talking about the same incident? Ocon was unlapping himself, there wasn't a blue flag


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Always have a reason why someone's opinion are invalid. On this forum, our opinion needs to be treated with caution as we've never been in that position (have any of us, regardless of what side of the fence we're on?). With Montoya, you throw something else at him. However, interestingly your point almost kills some of the supportive arguments for Max. Because, if Montoya has had a dodgy "history and behaviour", then it stands to reason he is not the only driver in this position. Therefore, Max Verstappen could well be developing a similar track record of dodgy behaviour that will be frowned upon when we look back on it and view it as history.
		
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I still dont think max did want to cause a collision, it's just how he drives, i.e. relentlessly aggressive, taking a risky approach and assuming the other driver involved will want to avoid a collision and that will be to his advantage. Kind of like the prisoner's dilemma! It benefits him as more often than not, the other person backs out, but there is the potential for max to lose out big time.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			...Always have a reason why someone's opinion are invalid. On this forum, our opinion needs to be treated with caution as we've never been in that position (have any of us, regardless of what side of the fence we're on?). With Montoya, you throw something else at him. However, interestingly your point almost kills some of the supportive arguments for Max. Because, if Montoya has had a dodgy "history and behaviour", then it stands to reason he is not the only driver in this position. Therefore, Max Verstappen could well be developing a similar track record of dodgy behaviour that will be frowned upon when we look back on it and view it as history.
		
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MV has always been an aggressive driver! Hamilton, imo, has become slightly less aggressive than he used to be - quite likely because of having superior 'equipment' as demonstrated last weekend.
Even if reviewed, I don't believe there'll be a penalty from this incident - though perhaps a warning. The fact that LH dropped back from the initial overtake manoeuver indicated, to me, his acceptance that he was not (going to be) able to pass cleanly and (seperately) MV was entitled to 'protect' his position through the corner. There was plenty of room, albeit not 'real track' so not actually 'dangerous' imo. Pleased that LH got past him - as always looked likely - cleanly though.


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2021)

Moving on from Maxgate. the new circuit in Qatar looks a bit soulless. Perhaps under lights it will come alive.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Always have a reason why someone's opinion are invalid. On this forum, our opinion needs to be treated with caution as we've never been in that position (have any of us, regardless of what side of the fence we're on?). With Montoya, you throw something else at him. However, interestingly your point almost kills some of the supportive arguments for Max. Because, if Montoya has had a dodgy "history and behaviour", then it stands to reason he is not the only driver in this position. Therefore, Max Verstappen could well be developing a similar track record of dodgy behaviour that will be frowned upon when we look back on it and view it as history.
		
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That was the irony of your post, your happily say Max has form and just saying it’s behaviour true to form, and then you take a sound bite from some Montoya. Montoya‘s behaviour was more off circuit, that questions his opinion as reasonable.

I think your just anti Max on any level, and rational or pragmatic opinion is not deployed.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Are you talking about the same incident? Ocon was unlapping himself, there wasn't a blue flag
		
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Which incident are you using ? As any vehicle that has been shown the blue flag needs to get out of the way


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Which incident are you using ? As any vehicle that has been shown the blue flag needs to get out of the way
		
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Brazil 2018, Bob put a picture of it, you replied....

Verstappen was ahead of Ocon (on the track, and by a lap), Ocon decided to unlap himself down the pit straight as he had fresh tyres and the pace to do so, he pulled level (see Bob's pic), Max turned in on him into turn 2.

Ocon was being a bit of a plank, but was entitled to overtake, the crash was Max's fault, but Ocon got the blame because he was a lapped car.

Thought you knew everything there was to know about F1?!


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Moving on from Maxgate. the new circuit in Qatar looks a bit soulless. Perhaps under lights it will come alive.
		
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I hope so, it's a bit uninteresting to look at!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			MV has always been an aggressive driver! Hamilton, imo, has become slightly less aggressive than he used to be - quite likely because of having superior 'equipment' as demonstrated last weekend.
Even if reviewed, I don't believe there'll be a penalty from this incident - though perhaps a warning. The fact that LH dropped back from the initial overtake manoeuver indicated, to me, his acceptance that he was not (going to be) able to pass cleanly and (seperately) MV was entitled to 'protect' his position through the corner. There was plenty of room, albeit not 'real track' so not actually 'dangerous' imo. Pleased that LH got past him - as always looked likely - cleanly though.
		
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We see greater risks when the machinery is equal, Hamilton knew he had an advantage other drivers just let him pass. Back in the day Brazil was a tough overtaking circuit, unless you had an advantage. I think 2006 was a good case to review where we see the Ferrari light it up ( Massa I think) but that was because the Bridgestone had figured it out, and the car set up optimised .


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Brazil 2018, Bob put a picture of it, you replied....

Verstappen was ahead of Ocon (on the track, and by a lap), Ocon decided to unlap himself down the pit straight as he had fresh tyres and the pace to do so, he pulled level (see Bob's pic), Max turned in on him into turn 2.

Ocon was being a bit of a plank, but was entitled to overtake, the crash was Max's fault, but Ocon got the blame because he was a lapped car.

Thought you knew everything there was to know about F1?!
		
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I stopped watching it, and Ocon was a plank and getting in the way of a race… lapped cars are just mobile chicanes and only fighting for durability and minor points .

Sorry if I come across like that, I will leave you all to it, as I am causing upset.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I stopped watching it, and Ocon was a plank and getting in the way of a race… lapped cars are just mobile chicanes and only fighting for durability and minor points .

Sorry if I come across like that, I will leave you all to it, as I am causing upset.
		
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You're not causing upset Harpo, and I was just teasing as you have a very strong view on everything on here - which is your prerogative!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That was the irony of your post, your happily say Max has form and just saying it’s behaviour true to form, and then you take a sound bite from some Montoya. Montoya‘s behaviour was more off circuit, that questions his opinion as reasonable.

I think your just anti Max on any level, and rational or pragmatic opinion is not deployed.
		
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I am anti Max, I've not been shy of admitting that. This particular incident is just another incident as to why I dislike him, and Red Bull so much. I never said I was or wasn't a Montoya fan, simply highlighted his opinion as an ex F1 driver.

Did Max WANT the crash. Probably not, although I cannot read his mind and the crash would likely have worked to his advantage. Would he have felt a crash was a possibility if he completely got his braking point wrong? He certainly must have done, otherwise he is completely deluded. So, the question is, was that risk fair? In my opinion, absolutely not. Had Max avoided that "mistake" we would have seen good racing. We'd have known whether Lewis could have made the overtake on the outside, or whether Max would have regained position going up the inside and getting a better exit. However, we were robbed seeing that when Max failed to brake and and simply pushed them both clean off the circuit. Max could have avoided this, Lewis could not without crashing into the car charging up from behind him.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Moving on from Maxgate. the new circuit in Qatar looks a bit soulless. Perhaps under lights it will come alive.
		
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Aren't all circuits in these types of places usually uninspiring? What are your favourite circuits, mine are:


Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Canada
Silverstone
Spa
Monza
Monaco (well, the race is often a bit rubbish, but I still get excited in the build up at least)


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Aren't all circuits in these types of places usually uninspiring? What are your favourite circuits, mine are:


Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Canada
Silverstone
Spa
Monza
Monaco (well, the race is often a bit rubbish, but I still get excited in the build up at least)


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Errr, my fav tracks are very similar to yours!


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2021)

Very interesting press conference now with Toto and Christian. It's quite clear Christian thinks Mercedes are doing something potentially illegal with their engine and wing.


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## cliveb (Nov 19, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I still dont think max did want to cause a collision, it's just how he drives, i.e. relentlessly aggressive, taking a risky approach and assuming the other driver involved will want to avoid a collision and that will be to his advantage. Kind of like the prisoner's dilemma! It benefits him as more often than not, the other person backs out, *but there is the potential for max to lose out big time.*

Click to expand...

It has already happened - at Silverstone. Irrespective of the penalty given to Lewis, the Silverstone incident was fundamentally a case of Max not giving an inch and Lewis choosing not to be intimidated. The result was that Max lost out big time.

What bothers me most is that Max, having already suffered as a result of his uncompromising style, hasn't learned and continues to behave exactly the same way. I think that the reason he failed to learn from Silverstone is because Horner and Marko decided to lay into Lewis and so Max never understood that his aggression was part of the problem. I really think that Horner and Marko are a bad influence on Max's ability to mature as a driver.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			, Max even accused Hamilton of no class when he celebrates his win while Max was in hospital (despite Hamilton being completely oblivious to this fact straight after the win). .
		
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Stange how upset he was about that seeing as he didn't give two hoots about celebrating a podium not long after Romain Grosjean was very nearly burned to death. Classlwss arrogant little (something I'll get told off for typing)


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Very interesting press conference now with Toto and Christian. It's quite clear Christian thinks Mercedes are doing something potentially illegal with their engine and wing.
		
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That's the Red Bull style! Whether Merc are or they aren't, Red Bull want maximum scrutiny on Merc.


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2021)

Stewards have denied Mercedes request to review decision. Not really surprised as it would have cast a big shadow over this weekend. Max got away with it, so time to move on.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

cliveb said:



			It has already happened - at Silverstone. Irrespective of the penalty given to Lewis, the Silverstone incident was fundamentally a case of Max not giving an inch and Lewis choosing not to be intimidated. The result was that Max lost out big time.

What bothers me most is that Max, having already suffered as a result of his uncompromising style, hasn't learned and continues to behave exactly the same way. I think that the reason he failed to learn from Silverstone is because Horner and Marko decided to lay into Lewis and so Max never understood that his aggression was part of the problem. I really think that Horner and Marko are a bad influence on Max's ability to mature as a driver.
		
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He has, but I reckon he's probably gained more over his career, even if not this season. 

Monza, for example, he effectively gained points. Was it last season where he took a v aggressive approach to passing LeClerc? Yes, absolutely he lost out big time at Silverstone, but there have been a lot of gains too.


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## Canary_Yellow (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Stewards have denied Mercedes request to review decision. Not really surprised as it would have cast a big shadow over this weekend. Max got away with it, so time to move on.
		
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I think that was inevitable - the question was whether there was any material new evidence, and it's hard to imagine what that would have been? The stewards got it wrong at the weekend, but there's no route to overrule them without new info. As you say, on we go.

Will be interesting to see if it impacts how drivers approach similar situations with cars trying to pass on the outside. I suspect it won't.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Stewards have denied Mercedes request to review decision. Not really surprised as it would have cast a big shadow over this weekend. Max got away with it, so time to move on.
		
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Or initial judgement of the incident was correct and we have debated it because we have nothing else to argue about that is politically correct


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Stange how upset he was about that seeing as he didn't give two hoots about celebrating a podium not long after Romain Grosjean was very nearly burned to death. Classlwss arrogant little (something I'll get told off for typing)
		
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I wish a journalist had made that point when he was was blaming Lewis for a lack of class. I think you need to get in there, maybe replace Ted Kravitz


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Or initial judgement of the incident was correct and we have debated it because we have nothing else to argue about that is politically correct
		
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Nope, the initial judgement was 100% incorrect. But, let us not go through all this again. None of us will change our minds.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Stewards have denied Mercedes request to review decision. Not really surprised as it would have cast a big shadow over this weekend. Max got away with it, so time to move on.
		
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Might as well do away with track limits then.


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Might as well do away with track limits then.
		
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And that is part of the issue now is that drivers on the outside are going into the corner now with the added mind thought is the driver on the inside going to "escort" me off the track or block my right to turn in properly?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Might as well do away with track limits then.
		
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Not seen the Qatar circuit yet. Is there plenty of room for Max to drive off the circuit? I'd love to see all the drivers just driving randomly all over the place.


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## bobmac (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not seen the Qatar circuit yet. Is there plenty of room for Max to drive off the circuit? I'd love to see all the drivers just driving randomly all over the place.
		
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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...ars-hit-the-qatar.6niZ7TvywfffTzhr7KElro.html


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not seen the Qatar circuit yet. Is there plenty of room for Max to drive off the circuit? I'd love to see all the drivers just driving randomly all over the place.
		
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Loads of run-offs, with gravel the size of golf balls...


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Stewards have denied Mercedes request to review decision. Not really surprised as it would have cast a big shadow over this weekend. Max got away with it, so time to move on.
		
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Or, perish the thought, they got it right first time.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Or, perish the thought, they got it right first time.
		
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We'll see. The following statments and thoughts do not seem healthy for F1 in the future. Or maybe they do?

"It is more about the principle and the philosophy," Wolff said. "If it stays that way, it means overtaking from the outside is pretty much not possible any more because the inside controls the corner completely. You can see some of the drivers have expressed the same opinion.

"It is really important to understand what's on and what's not on because we don't want this championship to be decided by a controversial situation that ends up in the stewards' room. That's why now is the time to clarify the rules."

On Thursday, Ferrari's Charles Leclerc made the same point, saying: "If this is allowed then overtaking on the outside is going to be very difficult."

So, there was clearly a feeling amongst those directly involved in F1 that this was completely unacceptable before the incident. The decision, and the following discussion, have effectively clarified that no, it is OK, don't worry about it. The stewards will not have a leg to stand on the next time a driver charges up the inside and takes another driver out. How could they? They can only conclude that is is good hard racing.


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Or, perish the thought, they got it right first time.
		
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Just perhaps, hold the thought.... they made a perceived bad call first time around and decided the best course of action is not to make it any worse, and/or set a precedent to open up "Pandora's Box" on other historical incidents.


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## woofers (Nov 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Might as well do away with track limits then.
		
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Or make the penalty for exceeding track limits more severe, be that a long lap as in the bikes, a meaningful time penalty, tyre / straw bale walls or gravel traps closer to the corners.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 19, 2021)

So, no more overtaking on the outside, and drivers are allowed to maintain their position by leaving the circuit.

Should be fun!

Sport has a funny way of dishing out Karma. Cannot wait to see what it has in store for Redbull.


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## Wabinez (Nov 19, 2021)

Piece said:



			Very interesting press conference now with Toto and Christian. It's quite clear Christian thinks Mercedes are doing something potentially illegal with their engine and wing.
		
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## BiMGuy (Nov 19, 2021)

Redbull have got enough issues with their own rear wing to be worrying about what Mercedes are doing.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2021)

Flexi rear wings have been around for a while. They had them on the Ferrari mid 2000s . I remember Rubén’s engineer come in ask if wing xxx was fitted and then walk to the back plane and push down on it in the middle and it deflected. 
Myself and the other embedded supplier engineer looked at each other and just rolled our eyes .. but most the photographers were concentrating on Michael’s car .. so it might of passed by.


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## cliveb (Nov 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			So, no more overtaking on the outside, and drivers are allowed to maintain their position by leaving the circuit.
Should be fun!
		
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This ruling has effectively made it impossible to overtake at a corner. All the defending driver needs to do is place his car on the inside line, then allow it to drift out and push the overtaker off the track. I reckon Fernando will be taking advantage at every possible opportunity, if for no other reason than to demonstrate how badly the FIA have screwed up.

It will now only be possible to overtake if you have sufficient speed to complete the pass on the straight, before getting to the braking point.


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

cliveb said:



			It will now only be possible to overtake if you have sufficient speed to complete the pass on the straight, before getting to the braking point.
		
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That's easy, just open your DRS (if Max has checked it's legal first)


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

So Christian Horner has a large dossier of photos of the Mercedes DRS wing and he's pleased that the FIA are going to investigate the scratches. Maybe another DQ coming if they find another 0.2mm issue.






It's a shame they didn't investigate turn 4 last Sunday.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 20, 2021)

If Hamilton actually gets his car, all of his car, in front of Verstappen then he can place his car whenever he likes on the track; the issue is that Hamilton only ever got alongside Verstappen, rather than in front of him.


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## Reemul (Nov 20, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I am anti Max
		
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Yep, having read all your posts on this topic I am expecting you to murder him just for turning up and if he looked at you funny you would probably do his family as well.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			If Hamilton actually gets his car, all of his car, in front of Verstappen then he can place his car whenever he likes on the track; the issue is that Hamilton only ever got alongside Verstappen, rather than in front of him.
		
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Go watch it again. Lewis had most of his car past Max. In the rules that means the corner was Lewis’s.


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Go watch it again. Lewis had most of his car past Max. In the rules that means the corner was Lewis’s.
		
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And the only reason Lewis didn't stay in front was because he braked for the corner and Max didn't


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## SaintHacker (Nov 20, 2021)

Verstappen summoned to stewards for not respecting double waved yellows


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Verstappen summoned to stewards for not respecting double waved yellows
		
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I hope he doesn't get a grid penalty. I want to see Bottas dive up the inside of him in the first corner and run in to the side of him claiming that he's allowed to brake late and Max shouldn't have turned across him.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I hope he doesn't get a grid penalty. I want to see Bottas dive up the inside of him in the first corner and run in to the side of him claiming that he's allowed to brake late and Max shouldn't have turned across him.
		
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You might still get your wish, bottas and sainz have been called in as well!🤣


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## cliveb (Nov 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Verstappen summoned to stewards for not respecting double waved yellows
		
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The stewards must know they made a big mistake in Brazil, so Max has given them a perfect opportunity to make amends. This offence normally attracts a 5 place grid penalty, and there's no reason it should be any different in this case.

That puts him behind Sainz, Norris and - most interestingly - Alonso. I predict that Fernando will run him off the track, just to make a point.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 21, 2021)

cliveb said:



			The stewards must know they made a big mistake in Brazil, so Max has given them a perfect opportunity to make amends. This offence normally attracts a 5 place grid penalty, and there's no reason it should be any different in this case.

That puts him behind Sainz, Norris and - most interestingly - Alonso. I predict that Fernando will run him off the track, just to make a point.
		
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Thats if the Stewards have the balls to actually ignore FIA directives about stopping Merc this year..


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## Cherry13 (Nov 21, 2021)

i think Max will have a decent argument to say the green flag/light was on and he’ll get away with it.  Just for the conspiracy theorists though sainz and bottas won’t.


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2021)

Bottas, 3 place grid penalty


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			i think Max will have a decent argument to say the green flag/light was on and he’ll get away with it.  Just for the conspiracy theorists though sainz and bottas won’t.
		
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If you have double yellow flags waving and a green light, one of them must be wrong.
I would suggest erring on the cautious side and slow down.


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## Cherry13 (Nov 21, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			i think Max will have a decent argument to say the green flag/light was on and he’ll get away with it.  Just for the conspiracy theorists though sainz and bottas won’t.
		
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Lol… this aged well… I can also predict the footy scores if anyone wants something to bet against.


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2021)

Max Verstappen gets a five-place grid penalty
Christian Horner will no doubt appeal but he better hurry up


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## Cherry13 (Nov 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If you have double yellow flags waving and a green light, one of them must be wrong.
I would suggest erring on the cautious side and slow down.
		
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Yeh that’s a good point, and having only seen the headline and not the ruling would guess that’s the line the fia have took. Not sure that max and cautious go together though. 

Shame it’s spoiled an interesting first few corners. But think Lewis just disappears now… (I reserve the right to delete this comment later)


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Yeh that’s a good point, and having only seen the headline and not the ruling would guess that’s the line the fia have took. Not sure that max and cautious go together though.

Shame it’s spoiled an interesting first few corners. But think Lewis just disappears now… (I reserve the right to delete this comment later)
		
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I think that most of the interest for the first few corners or laps will be Verstappen trying to get past Bottas and Alonso. Can easily see a coming together between them.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 21, 2021)

Bottas 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


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## cliveb (Nov 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Bottas 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
		
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Yes, but predictable. How many times this year has Valtteri failed to do his job?

The thing that upset me more was that Alonso didn't quite have enough speed to prevent Max getting past before the braking zone. I was looking forward to what Fernando would do, given the new precedent that's been set over pushing people off track.


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## SteveW86 (Nov 22, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Yes, but predictable. How many times this year has Valtteri failed to do his job?

The thing that upset me more was that Alonso didn't quite have enough speed to prevent Max getting past before the braking zone. I was looking forward to what Fernando would do, given the new precedent that's been set over pushing people off track.
		
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He did half push him off in the first few corners


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## cliveb (Nov 22, 2021)

Proof that Max is living in his own world of make-believe:

"I knew already last night that I never get presents from them [the stewards]," Verstappen told _Sky Sports_.

Has he already forgotten the get out of jail free card they handed him in Brazil?


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## Wilson (Nov 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Bottas 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
		
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I think it's fair to say he has given up this season!


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## Wabinez (Nov 22, 2021)

Just looked at a hot lap on the Jeddah circuit. Think I counted one low speed corner…going to be some very high speed corners, and a lot of full throttle.

Not much run off either - so could find a few cars in the walls!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 22, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Proof that Max is living in his own world of make-believe:

"I knew already last night that I never get presents from them [the stewards]," Verstappen told _Sky Sports_.

Has he already forgotten the get out of jail free card they handed him in Brazil?
		
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Oh dear. What a whiney entitled brat.


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## Smiffy (Nov 22, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Oh dear. What a whiney entitled brat.
		
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He's been spoilt rotten by his two fathers...


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2021)




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## SaintHacker (Nov 28, 2021)

Sad news, Sir Frank Williams has passed away.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Sad news, Sir Frank Williams has passed away.
		
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A true gent, and always played fair. Some of the current team bosses could learn a lot from Sir Frank.


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## jim8flog (Nov 30, 2021)

Not F1
but for those that just like fast cars

great Documentary on the Sky Documentary channel about Michelle Mouton (the most successful lady rally driver).


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## Wabinez (Dec 4, 2021)

Well, well, well…..


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## SaintHacker (Dec 4, 2021)

Pressure getting to Max?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 4, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Pressure getting to Max?
		
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Could well be.

That was right up there with the best of qualifying sessions. It’s great to see the pair of them pushing it right to the edge.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2021)

That track worries me...


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2021)

He knew he was half a second up on Lewis so why risk it on the last corner. Idiot.


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## Funt1m3 (Dec 5, 2021)

Did he know he was half a second up? And Lewis was fastest in last sector (I think) so to dial it down to 99/100 was going to be difficult

Either way, fantastic stuff. Thought Lewis’s comments on Valteri may have had an ulterior motive, I.e. just do your bloody job tomorrow and hold him off the first corner


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2021)

Funt1m3 said:



			Did he know he was half a second up? And Lewis was fastest in last sector (I think) so to dial it down to 99/100 was going to be difficult

Either way, fantastic stuff. Thought Lewis’s comments on Valteri may have had an ulterior motive, I.e. just do your bloody job tomorrow and hold him off the first corner
		
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He wasn’t half a second up. He was 2 tenths, which is significant. It looked like just over 4 tenths because he went into the corner way too fast.

Whatever happens today. I feel that Lewis needs a lead over Max going into the last race to rule out Max going full Schumacher.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 5, 2021)

Funt1m3 said:



			Did he know he was half a second up? And Lewis was fastest in last sector (I think) so to dial it down to 99/100 was going to be difficult

Either way, fantastic stuff. Thought Lewis’s comments on Valteri may have had an ulterior motive, I.e. just do your bloody job tomorrow and hold him off the first corner
		
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Agreed, when you are going flat out for a qualifying lap, is it realistic to think his team will he constantly telling him how up or down he is? I doubt it, the pundits seem to think the same also. Even if he did know he was up, when should he slow down? Last corner, second last corner, third last corner, etc? Consciously slowing down could result in a large increase in time, and he'd have been kicking himself if he just missed out on pole.

Not a Verstappen fan as my previous comments prove, but can't criticise him much for that. You wan't drivers to drive qualifying laps right on the limit, and sometimes they will just go.over the edge.

Makes the race more interesting though.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2021)

The delta to pole is usually displayed on their steering wheel. So, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t aware of the situation.

It looked like a pure bad decision to mash the loud pedal after locking up. Which he didn’t need to do. Once he started to under steel, he needed to back out, but kept his foot in. 

He needs to learn that sometimes you need to back out. He’ll be very lucky if the gearbox doesn’t need replacing.


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2021)

Funt1m3 said:



			Did he know he was half a second up? And Lewis was fastest in last sector (I think) so to dial it down to 99/100 was going to be difficult
		
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I think they have their sector times on the steering wheel.
I just saw an interview with Max...
''I locked up, don't understand why''
Can I take a wild guess...
You were going fast, you braked too late, locked up, lost control and hit the wall.



BiMGuy said:



			The delta to pole is usually displayed on their steering wheel. So, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t aware of the situation.

It looked like a pure bad decision to mash the loud pedal after locking up. Which he didn’t need to do. Once he started to under steel, he needed to back out, but kept his foot in.

He needs to learn that sometimes you need to back out. *He’ll be very lucky if the gearbox doesn’t need replacing.*

Click to expand...

And that's a five grid place penalty which won't be easy to overcome and makes Bottas job easier.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think they have their sector times on the steering wheel.
I just saw an interview with Max...
''I locked up, don't understand why''
Can I take a wild guess...
You were going fast, you braked too late, locked up, lost control and hit the wall.



And that's a five grid place penalty which won't be easy to overcome and makes Bottas job easier.
		
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Rumour has it that both Lewis and MAx will be on new gearboxes without penalty as they've both done six races, whats not clear at the moment is if Max was on the new one for qualy, which if he is then it will be a penalty (assuming its buggered)


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Rumour has it that both Lewis and MAx will be on new gearboxes without penalty as they've both done six races, whats not clear at the moment is if Max was on the new one for qualy, which if he is then it will be a penalty (assuming its buggered)
		
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_''The team is clear that if there is the slightest risk of it being compromised then it will elect to replace it – which would mean a five-place grid drop.''_

_https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/r...swap-verstappens-gearbox-after-crash/6850817/_


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Rumour has it that both Lewis and MAx will be on new gearboxes without penalty as they've both done six races, whats not clear at the moment is if Max was on the new one for qualy, which if he is then it will be a penalty (assuming its buggered)
		
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It was the new one in qualifying.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 5, 2021)

Interesting race coming up, red bull certainly looked to have the pace.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''The team is clear that if there is the slightest risk of it being compromised then it will elect to replace it – which would mean a five-place grid drop.''_

_https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/r...swap-verstappens-gearbox-after-crash/6850817/_

Click to expand...

Sounds like gearbox is ok


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2021)

Overtaking on this new track looks nigh on impossible. This race is going to be won or lost on strategy and pit stops. The undercut, if timed correctly, could be the deciding factor. Lots and lots of cars on a very confined circuit is going to mean quite a few frustrated drivers. It's like Monaco on steroids. 
If Hamilton ever needed Bottas's full cooperation, it's today. He's got to stop Max coming through...


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Overtaking on this new track looks nigh on impossible. This race is going to be won or lost on strategy and pit stops. The undercut, if timed correctly, could be the deciding factor. Lots and lots of cars on a very confined circuit is going to mean quite a few frustrated drivers. It's like Monaco on steroids.
If Hamilton ever needed Bottas's full cooperation, it's today. He's got to stop Max coming through...
		
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Which is why Redbull gambled on setting up for ultimate one lap pace. They needed Max to be at the front. 

The Mercedes looks set up for better race pace and looked mighty on the hard tyres during practice. 

Strategy and safety cars will play a huge part in this race.


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## cliveb (Dec 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It looked like a pure bad decision to mash the loud pedal after locking up. Which he didn’t need to do. Once he started to under steel, he needed to back out, but kept his foot in.
		
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He said as much in the post-quali interview. Once again, Max displays: Ambition + Ego > Talent


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2021)

These guys are good drivers but I fear some big shunts are coming.
I hope I'm wrong and Lewis disappears into the distance but a track that narrow and that fast is asking for trouble, and with blind bends at that speed, one car in the wall could quickly become a 3 or 4 car pile up.
Here's hoping for a boring safe race.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			These guys are good drivers but I fear some big shunts are coming.
I hope I'm wrong and Lewis disappears into the distance but a track that narrow and that fast is asking for trouble, and with blind bends at that speed, one car in the wall could quickly become a 3 or 4 car pile up.
Here's hoping for a boring safe race.
		
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That's what is worrying me Bob.
Barreling around one of those blind bends at near on 200mph and coming face to face with a striken car? You've only got to remember how Billy Monger sustained his injuries.
Doesn't bear thinking about
😳😳😳


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## cliveb (Dec 5, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			That's what is worrying me Bob.
Barreling around one of those blind bends at near on 200mph and coming face to face with a striken car? You've only got to remember how Billy Monger sustained his injuries.
Doesn't bear thinking about
😳😳😳
		
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Presumably the FIA signed off on the design, and we know they aren't exactly blase about safety.
But I agree that it looks a very scary track.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Presumably the FIA signed off on the design, and we know they aren't exactly blase about safety.
But I agree that it looks a very scary track.
		
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It's the only track I've ever seen that I wouldn't fancy having a squirt around.


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## Pants (Dec 5, 2021)

You wouldn't get me driving my E Type fast round there


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			That's what is worrying me Bob.
Barreling around one of those blind bends at near on 200mph and coming face to face with a striken car? You've only got to remember how Billy Monger sustained his injuries.
Doesn't bear thinking about
😳😳😳
		
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Those blind corners are scary but there's nothing to really stop a car dead, if someone does hit the wall they should carry on down the track for a while giving the cars behind time to slow hopefully


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Those blind corners are scary but there's nothing to really stop a car dead, if someone does hit the wall they should carry on down the track for a while giving the cars behind time to slow hopefully
		
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I hope you're right mush
😳😳😳


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

Christ, horrible crash in the F2, stalled car on the grid and another piled straight into the back of him


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Christ, horrible crash in the F2, stalled car on the grid and another piled straight into the back of him
		
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That place isn't wide enough I tell you


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

Pants said:



			You wouldn't get me driving my E Type fast round there 

Click to expand...

I'd have a go in my wife's diesel Altea, without question.


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## Beezerk (Dec 5, 2021)

Wow!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2021)

Stopping the race will bring out the conspiracy theorists who think they're trying to hand the title to Verstappen.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Stopping the race will bring out the conspiracy theorists who think they're trying to hand the title to Verstappen.
		
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With no barrier work done....can you blame anyone?


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

Well, this has stirred the hornets' nest.


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

Ooh, a bullish restart by Max .................................. and then it stops again!


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2021)

This is going to cramp my viewing of Strictly


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2021)

Surely Verstappen gained an advantage there by running off the track. What's the penalty for that?


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

This track is ridiculous ,the FIA need to rip up the contract now and never go back there


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This track is ridiculous ,the FIA need to rip up the contract now and never go back there
		
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............... or put them all on bicycles.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This track is ridiculous ,the FIA need to rip up the contract now and never go back there
		
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It definitely is not entertaining


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			It definitely is not entertaining
		
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This seems the most entertainment in the sport 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			It definitely is not entertaining
		
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For me that could be said for F1 for quite some years.


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

I'm loving the live bargainig as to what penalties are to be dished out.


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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			This is going to cramp my viewing of Strictly

Click to expand...

No need to make a song and dance about it 😁😁


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## Dando (Dec 5, 2021)

How much are the drivers/teams bitching about each other


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 5, 2021)

"Hello Red Bull, how do you want to win the Championship this year?"........


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## Piece (Dec 5, 2021)

One is racing aggressively and one is racing at all costs


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

Great start by Max.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

Slime said:



			Great start by Max.
		
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Dont understand why they've put him on mediums though, he will have to stop again, lewis is going to the end safety car or not🤷‍♂️


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Dont understand why they've put him on mediums though, he will have to stop again, lewis is going to the end safety car or not🤷‍♂️
		
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Maybe hoping for another red flag, or maybe they think the tyres will last if there's just another one or two safety cars?


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## Neilds (Dec 5, 2021)

Wish they would just race and stop whining like little spoilt brats!!!


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

Possibly,  but you've got to think they'll be down to the carcass by the end. Thats a bloody big gsmble with a faster merc on hard tyres behind


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## Beedee (Dec 5, 2021)

With only 20 laps of racing in 2 hours, the tyres won't wear out.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 5, 2021)

this is an absolute joke, what is the point in watching cars go round unable to overtake and going this slow.


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## Beedee (Dec 5, 2021)

Michael Massey is having an absolute nightmare.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2021)

Brake test oh dear.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			this is an absolute joke, what is the point in watching cars go round unable to overtake and going this slow.
		
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Seems this purpose built circuit isn’t that good.
Drivers can’t see over the corners is a problem.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2021)

With Verstappen having a 5 second penalty should Mercedes get Bottas to have an accident to bring out the safety car for the last couple of laps? Bunch the field up and Verstappen drops from second position down to 5th/6th/7th.


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

I hated that, they should never race here again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2021)

Well don’t normally watch F1 much but that was actually exciting 

Seems some strange things and decisions from the officials as well as lots of whining from the drivers and heads etc


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

Over 2¼ hours to run the race!


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## Beedee (Dec 5, 2021)

Slime said:



			I hated that, they should never race here again.
		
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I agree with not returning.  Mesmerising circuit for the on-board footage, but awful track for a race.    

Unfortunately F1 has the social conscience of a crack-addicted crocodile, so Saudi money will win out over race safety and human rights for the next 10 years.


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## pokerjoke (Dec 5, 2021)

Good race by Lewis 
Unfortunately I suspect neither will finish the next race.


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## CliveW (Dec 5, 2021)

Slime said:



			Over 2¼ hours to run the race!
		
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Slower than 18 holes of golf!!!  🤣


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## Tashyboy (Dec 5, 2021)

What a shocking race, what a shocking circuit, what a shocking driver Verstappen is. If that is the further of F1 then God help us.


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## Beedee (Dec 5, 2021)

Have to admit the drones are very impressive.


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## Piece (Dec 5, 2021)

Get her popcorn ready for Horner’s interview!


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## Beezerk (Dec 5, 2021)

Get in there Lewis


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

Shocker of a race circuit but what an incredible aftershow!


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## Beedee (Dec 5, 2021)

Really don't get why Verstappen got "driver of the day". I'd have given him a stop n go for the brake test.

Nice to see a classy podium from him - just walking off.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 5, 2021)

Great race, drama, everything.
I see the casual  pretend fans are out whining as ever.
Main title protagonists are dead level on points going in to the final race,  but yeah F1 is boring 😂🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣😂


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## theoneandonly (Dec 5, 2021)

Beedee said:



			Really don't get why Verstappen got "driver of the day". I'd have given him a stop n go for the brake test.

Nice to see a classy podium from him - *just walking off*.
		
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Hurrying off to the stewards office 😂😂


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## Swango1980 (Dec 5, 2021)

I've said it before, one day Max will seriously injure or kill someone. What on earth was he thinking off letting Lewis through there (well, we know, DRS zone and he can gain an advantage). Slowing driving up the middle of a narrow high speed bend up middle of track. Must have seriously spooked Lewis, as he would not have been expecting to overtake there. And, what side of Max would you go on, knowing Max would happily ram you off the track into a wall anyway. 

Also not sure why it required a red flag to fix a barrier after a fairly standard crash. 

Rubbish track though, entertainment generally provided from the maniac driving of Verstappen.

Quote of the day from Red Bull to race control "we think we were pushed off the track". Hahahahahahaha


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## 4LEX (Dec 5, 2021)

Max is a moron, no doubt.

Great to see Hamilton win with the rainbow helmet twice in Qatar and now Saudi. Told to take it easy and kept pushing with bits of his front wing flying over, proper racer.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 5, 2021)

Lewis also summoned to stewards office. I really hope this doesn’t get settled off the track.  I’d leave it for both now and move onto the next race. 
An awful racing circuit, but looked amazing over one lap and one the drivers clearly enjoyed.


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## paddyc (Dec 5, 2021)

Great race, so much to discuss. Max doing everything  he can to keep LH at bay most gamesmanship.. Dont think Lewis did anything  wrong circuit needs to be made safer. Too fast too narrow too many blind corners  Exciting for the drivers and tested every element of their skill. Next week will be  something


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Also not sure why it required a red flag to fix a barrier after a fairly standard crash.
		
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It was because they needed a crane on the track to lift the barriers, but yeah it was a poor call from Masi it should have been a red flag straight away


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			It was because they needed a crane on the track to lift the barriers, but yeah it was a poor call from Masi it should have been a red flag straight away
		
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Masi has been an embarrassment today.
Charlie Whiting will be turning in his grave.


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## Reemul (Dec 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've said it before, one day Max will seriously injure or kill someone. What on earth was he thinking off letting Lewis through there (well, we know, DRS zone and he can gain an advantage). Slowing driving up the middle of a narrow high speed bend up middle of track. Must have seriously spooked Lewis, as he would not have been expecting to overtake there. And, what side of Max would you go on, knowing Max would happily ram you off the track into a wall anyway.

Also not sure why it required a red flag to fix a barrier after a fairly standard crash.

Rubbish track though, entertainment generally provided from the maniac driving of Verstappen.

Quote of the day from Red Bull to race control "we think we were pushed off the track". Hahahahahahaha
		
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Seriously, we would listen, but your biased is so biased you can't see biased for the biased. You should change your user name to Biased..... Are you sure you ain't really Lewis himself.  They are both desperate to win and at times both pricks, I am fed up with the whiners and they, he will kill someone in there whiney typing vocie that comes through my monitor screen. It is dangerous, it is close and they are desperate to win. If you just want a return to a procession of cars not racing, letting each other through, not overtaking etc you are sorely missing the point of racing, you know racing that's a competition to win not a procession.

Heck I want Lewis to win but I want him to win it, not be given it because we are a little be scared. Lewis is earning £40,000,000 a year, he has massive bollocks get on and earn it not be given it.

Maybe next week, Max can just go there you are Lewie go ahead it's all your, the Golf Monthly forumers think hard racing is too dangerous...


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Seriously, we would listen, but your biased is so biased you can't see biased for the biased. You should change your user name to Biased..... Are you sure you ain't really Lewis himself.  They are both desperate to win and at times both pricks, I am fed up with the whiners and they, he will kill someone in there whiney typing vocie that comes through my monitor screen. It is dangerous, it is close and they are desperate to win. If you just want a return to a procession of cars not racing, letting each other through, not overtaking etc you are sorely missing the point of racing, you know racing that's a competition to win not a procession.

Heck I want Lewis to win but I want him to win it, not be given it because we are a little be scared. Lewis is earning £40,000,000 a year, he has massive bollocks get on and earn it not be given it.

Maybe next week, Max can just go there you are Lewie go ahead it's all your, the Golf Monthly forumers think hard racing is too dangerous...
		
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Google translate is giving me nothing 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Google translate is giving me nothing 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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Think he is saying that Swango is biased towards Hamilton and that all the drivers are going for it and it’s a dangerous sport 

I’m sure in the past Hamilton himself has been guilty of some dangerous driving 

Is this the first time it’s gone down to the last race since Hamilton/Massa


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## Swango1980 (Dec 5, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Seriously, we would listen, but your biased is so biased you can't see biased for the biased. You should change your user name to Biased..... Are you sure you ain't really Lewis himself.  They are both desperate to win and at times both pricks, I am fed up with the whiners and they, he will kill someone in there whiney typing vocie that comes through my monitor screen. It is dangerous, it is close and they are desperate to win. If you just want a return to a procession of cars not racing, letting each other through, not overtaking etc you are sorely missing the point of racing, you know racing that's a competition to win not a procession.

Heck I want Lewis to win but I want him to win it, not be given it because we are a little be scared. Lewis is earning £40,000,000 a year, he has massive bollocks get on and earn it not be given it.

Maybe next week, Max can just go there you are Lewie go ahead it's all your, the Golf Monthly forumers think hard racing is too dangerous...
		
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I switched off after reading your first 10 words. When you learn to articulate a point, maybe I'll read to the end.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think he is saying that Swango is biased towards Hamilton and that all the drivers are going for it and it’s a dangerous sport

I’m sure in the past Hamilton himself has been guilty of some dangerous driving

Is this the first time it’s gone down to the last race since Hamilton/Massa
		
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Not towards Hamilton, albeit I want him to win Championship. If it was between him and Russell or Norris, I don't know. Generally support the Brits.

However, Verstappen is despicable in my opinion. And, I'm not sitting on the fence on that one, so no point people moaning telling me I am against Verstappen. I have made that abundantly clear. I also can't stand Red Bull generally, and that feeling started long before I'd ever heard of Max Verstappen.


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## Slime (Dec 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think he is saying that Swango is biased towards Hamilton and that all the drivers are going for it *and it’s a dangerous sport*

I’m sure in the past Hamilton himself has been guilty of some dangerous driving

Is this the first time it’s gone down to the last race since Hamilton/Massa
		
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Sure, it is a dangerous sport, but I remember watching it in the 60's and 70's ........................... now that really was dangerous!


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## Cherry13 (Dec 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think he is saying that Swango is biased towards Hamilton and that all the drivers are going for it and it’s a dangerous sport

I’m sure in the past Hamilton himself has been guilty of some dangerous driving

Is this the first time it’s gone down to the last race since Hamilton/Massa
		
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Lewis and nico went down to the final race when nico won, Lewis tried to back him up into the pack but nobody could get past. 
Also alonso got stuck behind petrov in the final race in 2010 (I think) 
Lewis has definitely had a nasty streak previously in his career, I think now he’s widely regarded as tough but fair.  Max will settle down, they nearly all always do, one too many crashes cost them a title and they simmer down.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Lewis and nico went down to the final race when nico won, Lewis tried to back him up into the pack but nobody could get past.
Also alonso got stuck behind petrov in the final race in 2010 (I think)
Lewis has definitely had a nasty streak previously in his career, I think now he’s widely regarded as tough but fair.  Max will settle down, they nearly all always do, one too many crashes cost them a title and they simmer down.
		
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I’m always interested in why people think Lewis trying to back Nico into Vettel was considered dirty driving. As the leading car he gets to control the race pace. And what else was he supposed to do?


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## Cherry13 (Dec 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I’m always interested in why people think Lewis trying to back Nico into Vettel was considered dirty driving. As the leading car he gets to control the race pace. And what else was he supposed to do?
		
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If I remember correctly it was the team that was furious with him, I think just Wolff and Lowe had a very clear plan of how the race would go, and Lewis didn’t stick to that. That was the season they had the rules of engagement. But I agree, what else did they expect.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 5, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Lewis and nico went down to the final race when nico won, Lewis tried to back him up into the pack but nobody could get past.
Also alonso got stuck behind petrov in the final race in 2010 (I think)
Lewis has definitely had a nasty streak previously in his career, I think now he’s widely regarded as tough but fair.  Max will settle down, they nearly all always do, one too many crashes cost them a title and they simmer down.
		
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I can see why some people don't like Lewis. Maybe it is his demeanor. Maybe it is boring he has won a lot. Maybe it is his politics. Maybe it is his lifestyle. Maybe there are other reasons.

However, I never ever remember anyone saying he had a nasty streak. He has never ever been in that conversation when those type of drivers have been discussed by pundits. Sure, you can go through his long career and try and point out mistakes he may have made. Could do that with any driver, especially those is the limelight competing at the top.

It can't be compared to Max, who over steps the mark race after race. But, can I put all blame on Max? Maybe not, I don't think his bosses at Red Bull do him any favours


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2021)

Verstappen receives a further 10 sec penalty for a sudden 2.4g breaking manoeuvre which led to Hamilton running into the back of him. I’m beginning to think Verstappen has a screw loose.


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Scary that Max mentioned that he has more wins than Lewis.


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## Smiffy (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Scary that Max mentioned that he has more wins than Lewis.
		
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Yep... so a coming together in the last race would see Max crowned Champion.
Max is a dirty bastard. A petulant child. Reminds me so much of Michael Schumacher


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## Smiffy (Dec 6, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Barreling around one of those blind bends at near on 200mph and coming face to face with a striken car? You've only got to remember how Billy Monger sustained his injuries.
		
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Mazepin's crash into the back of Russell anyone???


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Verstappen receives a further 10 sec penalty for a sudden 2.4g breaking manoeuvre which led to Hamilton running into the back of him. I’m beginning to think Verstappen has a screw loose.
		
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What a pointless penalty. So lucky Hamilton wasn't taken out of the race in that incident. I wonder what it would take for a driver to get disqualified from a race? Can't wait until other drivers have the speed to compete against the Red Bull, because it is clear he would act in the exact same manner. People will finally see Max for what he is, rather than just think it is an overly sensitive Hamilton or Mercedes. I'd be surprised if many of the drivers have much respect for Max.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			What a pointless penalty. So lucky Hamilton wasn't taken out of the race in that incident. I wonder what it would take for a driver to get disqualified from a race? Can't wait until other drivers have the speed to compete against the Red Bull, because it is clear he would act in the exact same manner. People will finally see Max for what he is, rather than just think it is an overly sensitive Hamilton or Mercedes. I'd be surprised if many of the drivers have much respect for Max.
		
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You’ve only got to look back a race when Verstappen was given a grid penalty for a new engine to see him bullying his way through the field.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 6, 2021)

FIA have already said there will be penalties for any shenanigans in the last race, so a Mad Max move could cost him the championship. 
Seems a bit of a cop out penalty, but probably the best for the final race, that way they admit Max was a naughty boy but it still gets decided on track, and he's probably got more points on his licence for it.


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## GG26 (Dec 6, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Mazepin's crash into the back of Russell anyone???






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You are exactly right.  Before the race, I had said to my son that there could be a   Billy Monger type incident.  They should not race there again.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			FIA have already said there will be penalties for any shenanigans in the last race, so a Mad Max move could cost him the championship.
Seems a bit of a cop out penalty, but probably the best for the final race, that way they admit Max was a naughty boy but it still gets decided on track, and he's probably got more points on his licence for it.
		
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2 points on his license I believe.

If he takes Hamilton out, he wins the Championship. Unless he is given an even bigger penalty effecting previous points. Di Resta said he and Red Bull would not want to win the Championship that way. I'd love to agree, but I think that is just wishful thinking.


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			2 points on his license I believe.

If he takes Hamilton out, he wins the Championship. Unless he is given an even bigger penalty effecting previous points. Di Resta said he and Red Bull would not want to win the Championship that way. I'd love to agree, but I think that is just wishful thinking.
		
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Max just wants to win at any cost, you could see how desperate he was yesterday to beat Lewis.
I just hope Lewis wins next week and retires wealthy and healthy.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			2 points on his license I believe.

If he takes Hamilton out, he wins the Championship. Unless he is given an even bigger penalty effecting previous points. Di Resta said he and Red Bull would not want to win the Championship that way. I'd love to agree, but I think that is just wishful thinking.
		
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It would be a joke if he won the title because of the farcical Belgian Grand Prix, which is his extra “win”, and neither car finishing the race next weekend. 

The FIA will only intervene if it’s blatant. What is abundantly clear is max will try hugely risky moves knowing he has nothing to lose if he is behind. The FIA won’t intervene in the circumstance there is a coming together that is like any of the others seen so far this season.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

I was slightly disappointed with Di Resta and Hill's analysis of it yesterday. I know they'll call out any driver if they think it necessary, but when they looked at the footage they seemed to look for reasons in which Verstappen could be defended. Di Resta particularly focused on the down shifting by Max, and he was probably just simply slowing down to let Lewis past.

However, when you look at Hamilton's on board, it is clear Hamilton is catching Max, but at a fairly slow rate as both drivers are going down the gears. Then, as Hamilton gets close and starts to move to the left, the Red Bull car suddenly disappears to right of Hamilton, in a flash. It is clear the speed differential suddenly increased. Either that was because Hamilton accelerated too early, or Verstappen braked. 

I was puzzled why the pundits didn't pick up on that, but thankfully the numbers show Max's significant braking was a primary factor in the collision.


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## cliveb (Dec 6, 2021)

Is there any current FIA rule that can deduct points from previous results?
The only precedent I can recall is when Schumacher was DQ'd the entire season in 97 for trying to take out Villeneuve. But rules will probably have changed since then.
One possibility would be to retrospectively give Max a 5s penalty in Brazil, which would lose him some points.


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## Beedee (Dec 6, 2021)

According to the stewards  "The key point was that [Verstappen] then braked suddenly [at 69 bar] and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration… The sudden braking was determined to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision."   

2.4 g deceleration.  So over 2 and a half times the braking force of a road car in full emergency stop mode.  It should be  much bigger penalty than effectively nothing.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			It would be a joke if he won the title because of the farcical Belgian Grand Prix, which is his extra “win”, and neither car finishing the race next weekend.

The FIA will only intervene if it’s blatant. What is abundantly clear is max will try hugely risky moves knowing he has nothing to lose if he is behind. The FIA won’t intervene in the circumstance there is a coming together that is like any of the others seen so far this season.
		
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Good point well made, I forgot about that farcical "race". The FIA does a lot to shoot itself in the foot. Norris was extremely critical that they allow tyre changes during a red flag. It is a good point.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2021)

Given the wording of the report from the FIA, I am genuinely shocked that Max only got a 10 second penalty. Especially when you take into consideration the standard of his driving during the rest of the race.

In any other series causing a collision in the way he did would result in a DQ.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 6, 2021)

There are views that Max could take out Hamilton in the last race. I would give a pound to charity if Bottas took out Max. Max is getting away with disgusting tactics because the powers that be are allowing him to. In the same sense that Schumacher was allowed to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

I wonder if there is a Dutch equivalent forum somewhere out there that has the polar opposite reaction 

It seems to me to be a season that actually has two drivers that can win the title and want to win the title badly - Hamilton over the years has cruised to title wins without much opposition , the one year he was challenged was Rosberg who beat him and Hamilton cried throughout the season. Drivers that want to win when in a battle will take risks - Senna used , didnt James Hunt ? Schumacher etc 

Is this right now not how it should be - drivers going at it to try and win at all costs - Hamilton just doesn’t seem to like it right now because there is a chance that he might actually lose to another driver. 

Yesterdays GP was the first one I watched from start to finish for years - it had it all , it maybe not the purists dream but it certainly had the excitement which is what sport is supposed to be


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Given the wording of the report from the FIA, I am genuinely shocked that Max only got a 10 second penalty. Especially when you take into consideration the standard of his driving during the rest of the race.

In any other series causing a collision in the way he did would result in a DQ.
		
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Agreed, had any other driver done what Max did in Brazil, I am sure they'd have been penalised. If any driver did what Max did yesterday, I am sure they would be hugely penalised. Are there many more things much more dangerous than brake testing another driver at high speed?

I suspect they think that it is good for the sport to have another driver win other than Lewis, and another team challenge Mercedes. Yes, it certainly is good for the sport to have that competition, but surely never at the expense of what we see from Max.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wonder if there is a Dutch equivalent forum somewhere out there that has the polar opposite reaction

It seems to me to be a season that actually has two drivers that can win the title and want to win the title badly - Hamilton over the years has cruised to title wins without much opposition , the one year he was challenged was Rosberg who beat him and Hamilton cried throughout the season. Drivers that want to win when in a battle will take risks - Senna used , didnt James Hunt ? Schumacher etc

Is this right now not how it should be - drivers going at it to try and win at all costs - Hamilton just doesn’t seem to like it right now because there is a chance that he might actually lose to another driver.

Yesterdays GP was the first one I watched from start to finish for years - it had it all , it maybe not the purists dream but it certainly had the excitement which is what sport is supposed to be
		
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When top sports people are competing at the top of their game, they do not often show a huge Riccardo like grin when things do not go their way. If I remember back to the season Rosberg won, I remember a lot of good fortune went his way / bad fortune Lewis's way. It is understandable he wasn't a happy go lucky guy a lot of the time. 

Hamilton's "moaning" this season is largely due to the way Max drives. The fact he will happily drive anyone off the track. We see drivers overtake other drivers all the time, and more often than not the driver being overtaken simply has to accept he has been done by the quicker guy / car. Max never has that attitude. It is fine if he were to compete right on the limit. But, he will simply drive himself off the track and force the other guy to get out of the way, or crash. Or, if on the outside, he'll simply turn into the guy on the inside as if he suddenly shouldn't exist. You may think it is racing, but to me it is not. 

However, the irony is, there is probably something to be said that such madness in a driver is entertaining in itself. It creates controversy and talking points. It doesn't justify what he does in terms of racing, but it probably provides entertainment to many. It has generated a lot of discussion on here. Had the red flag never happened, and Hamilton and Bottas just sailed to a one - two, there would probably be little to speak about.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wonder if there is a Dutch equivalent forum somewhere out there that has the polar opposite reaction

It seems to me to be a season that actually has two drivers that can win the title and want to win the title badly - Hamilton over the years has cruised to title wins without much opposition , the one year he was challenged was Rosberg who beat him and Hamilton cried throughout the season. Drivers that want to win when in a battle will take risks - Senna used , didnt James Hunt ? Schumacher etc

Is this right now not how it should be - drivers going at it to try and win at all costs - Hamilton just doesn’t seem to like it right now because there is a chance that he might actually lose to another driver.

Yesterdays GP was the first one I watched from start to finish for years - it had it all , it maybe not the purists dream but it certainly had the excitement which is what sport is supposed to be
		
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With all due respect, I think that’s wrong.

The sentiment is correct, we all want good, hard, wheel to wheel racing, and F1 as a sport (due to the technical regs) isn’t great for that as the cars can’t follow closely. However, Max’s approach has consistently crossed the line this season, I’ve never known a driver get so many penalties for driving standards. He clearly should have got one in Brazil too which was even more of a penalty than the one he got yesterday.

I had given Verstappen the benefit of the doubt until yesterday, I had assumed he was a young(ish) driver desperate to make his mark making a few errors along the way out of his determination to win. Yesterday, that position became untenable with a series of questionable on track decisions, followed by a ridiculous off track sulky demeanour.

In my eyes, he’s like a little kid whose parents always say is in the right regardless of whether he is or he isn’t. He actually seems to now believe the guff Horner comes out with and never thinks he’s wrong. 

Yesterday was over the line, lets hope next Sunday isn’t.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			When top sports people are competing at the top of their game, they do not often show a huge Riccardo like grin when things do not go their way. If I remember back to the season Rosberg won, I remember a lot of good fortune went his way / bad fortune Lewis's way. It is understandable he wasn't a happy go lucky guy a lot of the time.

Hamilton's "moaning" this season is largely due to the way Max drives. The fact he will happily drive anyone off the track. We see drivers overtake other drivers all the time, and more often than not the driver being overtaken simply has to accept he has been done by the quicker guy / car. Max never has that attitude. It is fine if he were to compete right on the limit. But, he will simply drive himself off the track and force the other guy to get out of the way, or crash. Or, if on the outside, he'll simply turn into the guy on the inside as if he suddenly shouldn't exist. You may think it is racing, but to me it is not.

However, the irony is, there is probably something to be said that such madness in a driver is entertaining in itself. It creates controversy and talking points. It doesn't justify what he does in terms of racing, but it probably provides entertainment to many. It has generated a lot of discussion on here. Had the red flag never happened, and Hamilton and Bottas just sailed to a one - two, there would probably be little to speak about.
		
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I guess you can’t see how biased that all is towards Hamilton 🤷‍♂️

You will only look at Verstappens driving as dangerous it seems - but it seems to be just racing and Hamilton doesn’t like it



Canary_Yellow said:



			With all due respect, I think that’s wrong.

The sentiment is correct, we all want good, hard, wheel to wheel racing, and F1 as a sport (due to the technical regs) isn’t great for that as the cars can’t follow closely. However, Max’s approach has consistently crossed the line this season, I’ve never known a driver get so many penalties for driving standards. He clearly should have got one in Brazil too which was even more of a penalty than the one he got yesterday.

I had given Verstappen the benefit of the doubt until yesterday, I had assumed he was a young(ish) driver desperate to make his mark making a few errors along the way out of his determination to win. Yesterday, that position became untenable with a series of questionable on track decisions, followed by a ridiculous off track sulky demeanour.

*In my eyes, he’s like a little kid whose parents always say is in the right regardless of whether he is or he isn’t. *He actually seems to now believe the guff Horner comes out with and never thinks he’s wrong.

Yesterday was over the line, lets hope next Sunday isn’t.
		
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Could that not just as easily be said about Hamilton as well ? 

And also a number of racing drivers through the years - Senna , Prost , Schumacher , Vettel - not surprisingly the successful ones. 

Listening to the ex F1 drivers - they seemed to have a different view than what’s being said on here


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess you can’t see how biased that all is towards Hamilton 🤷‍♂️

You will only look at Verstappens driving as dangerous it seems - but it seems to be just racing and Hamilton doesn’t like it
		
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That view is becoming increasingly hard to support in the face of the shear volume of penalties verstappen has received this season.

I haven’t heard any ex-drivers criticise the standard of Hamilton’s driving to be honest.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wonder if there is a Dutch equivalent forum somewhere out there that has the polar opposite reaction

It seems to me to be a season that actually has two drivers that can win the title and want to win the title badly - Hamilton over the years has cruised to title wins without much opposition , the one year he was challenged was Rosberg who beat him and Hamilton cried throughout the season. Drivers that want to win when in a battle will take risks - Senna used , didnt James Hunt ? Schumacher etc

Is this right now not how it should be - drivers going at it to try and win at all costs - Hamilton just doesn’t seem to like it right now because there is a chance that he might actually lose to another driver.

Yesterdays GP was the first one I watched from start to finish for years - it had it all , it maybe not the purists dream but it certainly had the excitement which is what sport is supposed to be
		
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Pickford really wanted to win last season so he did whatever was needed to take VVD out. VVD just didn’t like it that someone was prepared to challenge him, so he and all the Liverpool fans should stop complaining about it.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

[QUOTE="Liverpoolphil, post: 2430107, member: 15344"*]I guess you can’t see how biased that all is towards Hamilton 🤷‍♂️

You will only look at Verstappens driving as dangerous it seems - but it seems to be just racing and Hamilton doesn’t like it*


Could that not just as easily be said about Hamilton as well ?

And also a number of racing drivers through the years - Senna , Prost , Schumacher , Vettel - not surprisingly the successful ones.

Listening to the ex F1 drivers - they seemed to have a different view than what’s being said on here[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but that is a seriously lazy argument. You are trying to indicate I am being purely biased for Hamilton. However, the simple fact is, Hamilton is the one on the receiving end of his antics at the moment. He is the only guy quick enough to be involved in these battles with Max. 

You are also happily ignoring the numerous other posters in here that are being equally critical of Max. Are they all being biased towards Lewis?

The FIA gave him a penalty for significantly braking in front of Lewis, causing a collision. Can I be critical of Max for that, or is that not allowed because it was Lewis behind him. If another driver crashed into the back of him, could I be critical?


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You will only look at Verstappens driving as dangerous it seems
		
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Can't think where he gets that from


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess you can’t see how biased that all is towards Hamilton 🤷‍♂️

You will only look at Verstappens driving as dangerous it seems - but it seems to be just racing and Hamilton doesn’t like it


Could that not just as easily be said about Hamilton as well ?

And also a number of racing drivers through the years - Senna , Prost , Schumacher , Vettel - not surprisingly the successful ones.

Listening to the ex F1 drivers - they seemed to have a different view than what’s being said on here
		
Click to expand...

Do they? Pundits have to be diplomatic, they can't let emotions get the better of them if they are acting professionally. The main pundits no doubt have very close ties with all the teams, as they are in the paddock week in week out. They do not want to stir up bad blood with the mighty Red Bull team, or any other team. However, they still gently point the finger at Max numerous times after these many incidents.

I've not heard the opinion of many other ex F1 drivers, except as I mentioned previously when I heard Montoya believed Max had no concern about crashing into Hamilton in Brazil, as it would work to his advantage in all likelihood. Several current F1 drivers, such as Leclerc and Russell believed Verstappen's move was unacceptable under the guidelines, and so they were awaiting the final outcome with interest. 

No one doubts Max is quick. No one doubts he is aggressive. I have heard very few come out and say he is fair. I have heard plenty of other drivers in the past being praised for good hard racing, and Lewis has been one of those in that discussion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Pickford really wanted to win last season so he did whatever was needed to take VVD out. VVD just didn’t like it that someone was prepared to challenge him, so he and all the Liverpool fans should stop complaining about it.
		
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Wow - that’s be the random but well done on somehow bringing football and Liverpool  into it - that’s pretty special level trolling 👏


Swango1980 said:



			[QUOTE="Liverpoolphil, post: 2430107, member: 15344"*]I guess you can’t see how biased that all is towards Hamilton 🤷‍♂️*

*You will only look at Verstappens driving as dangerous it seems - but it seems to be just racing and Hamilton doesn’t like it*


Could that not just as easily be said about Hamilton as well ?

And also a number of racing drivers through the years - Senna , Prost , Schumacher , Vettel - not surprisingly the successful ones.

Listening to the ex F1 drivers - they seemed to have a different view than what’s being said on here
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but that is a seriously lazy argument. You are trying to indicate I am being purely biased for Hamilton. However, the simple fact is, Hamilton is the one on the receiving end of his antics at the moment. He is the only guy quick enough to be involved in these battles with Max.

You are also happily ignoring the numerous other posters in here that are being equally critical of Max. Are they all being biased towards Lewis?

The FIA gave him a penalty for significantly braking in front of Lewis, causing a collision. Can I be critical of Max for that, or is that not allowed because it was Lewis behind him. If another driver crashed into the back of him, could I be critical?[/QUOTE]

English fans supporting an English Racing driver - imagine that ? 

So why were F1 drivers not being a critical ? The guys who have sat in the cars - but there is bias everywhere in sport - if Max was English then the response we be hugely different 

These guys are on the edge - they will be going at it for the win


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Can't think where he gets that from

View attachment 39826

Click to expand...






Surely you would post the video as opposed to a still 

As the F1 commentator says “Max hasn’t done anything wrong there”’


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wonder if there is a Dutch equivalent forum somewhere out there that has the polar opposite reaction

It seems to me to be a season that actually has two drivers that can win the title and want to win the title badly - Hamilton over the years has cruised to title wins without much opposition , the one year he was challenged was Rosberg who beat him and Hamilton cried throughout the season. Drivers that want to win when in a battle will take risks - Senna used , didnt James Hunt ? Schumacher etc

Is this right now not how it should be - drivers going at it to try and win at all costs - Hamilton just doesn’t seem to like it right now because there is a chance that he might actually lose to another driver.

*Yesterdays GP was the first one I watched from start to finish for years* - it had it all , it maybe not the purists dream but it certainly had the excitement which is what sport is supposed to be
		
Click to expand...

Would this maybe be the reason you have little concept as to how atrocious Max can be?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 6, 2021)

Do we know yet what the sequence of radio messages was before the Hamilton into the back of Verstappen incident was.

From the chat after the race, it sounded like Max had been told to give the place up and thats why he slowed, but Lewis wasnt aware that was happening.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Not sure why my replies to Liverpoolphil, and vice versa, are distorted when they appear on here. So a reply to post 589.

I'm not English, so I'll let that slide. But, I shouldn't have to be non-British to criticise Max, or only be allowed to be critical if it was a non-British driver on the receiving end. If that was a good argument by yourself, we might as well shut down this debate right now, unless we have any non-Brits in here.

Current F1 drivers have been critical, but unless they afre directly involved in an incident, they are rarely too vocal in the media as this can cause all sorts of grief. We have no idea what they say behind closed doors. I'd be suprised if they shower Max with lots of praise.


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## Beedee (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:








Surely you would post the video as opposed to a still

As the F1 commentator says “Max hasn’t done anything wrong there”’
		
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Max got a penalty for his antics in Monza.  He had done something wrong.

From what I've heard on the last few races, the ex-drivers on Sky are mostly critical of Verstappen's driving.  The ex-drivers on Channel 4 are more supportive of Verstappen, but don't tend to be that critical of Hamilton.  The ex-drivers on Channel 4 are both ex-Red Bull drivers.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wow - that’s be the random but well done on somehow bringing football and Liverpool  into it - that’s pretty special level trolling 👏




So why were F1 drivers not being a critical ? The guys who have sat in the cars - but there is bias everywhere in sport - if Max was English then the response we be hugely different

These guys are on the edge - they will be going at it for the win
		
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Me trolling? Good one 😂. You seem to think that cheating is ok as long as you really want to win.

The only drivers not being critical are those still on RBs payroll and some of the Sky team. One of which has a very large axe to grind against Lewis’s father.


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:








Surely you would post the video as opposed to a still

As the *F1 commentator *says “Max hasn’t done anything wrong there”’
		
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You mean Ben (I love Max) Edwards?  

If it's videos you want, be my guest


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Do we know yet what the sequence of radio messages was before the Hamilton into the back of Verstappen incident was.

From the chat after the race, it sounded like Max had been told to give the place up and thats why he slowed, but Lewis wasnt aware that was happening.
		
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This is Verstap

When they told me that I had the five-second penalty, it was not worth fighting anymore because I would never pull a gap of five seconds,” said the championship leader. “So yes, a lot of action, a lot of things that happened. I think ultimately, we didn’t really have perfect pace in the race, maybe also the medium tyres were not amazing to the end. I think the hard tyres [of Hamilton] had a bit more life in them I think, but as always, it’s easy to say afterwards.


bobmac said:



			You mean Ben (I love Max) Edwards?  

If it's videos you want, be my guest







Click to expand...


Can’t see it ?

So what about this penalty that Hamilton got

https://racer.com/2021/07/19/fia-explains-why-consequence-not-a-part-of-hamilton-penalty/amp/

Says that Verstappen ended up in hospital as a precaution ?

Also some penalty points as well

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2021/07/18/hamilton-issued-penalty-points-following-verstappen-crash/

https://www.skysports.com/amp/f1/ne...formula-1-race-ban-after-russian-gp-penalties

Hamilton doesn’t appear to be the squeaky clean driver that some portray him to be

https://racingnews365.com/who-is-involved-in-more-on-track-incidents-hamilton-or-verstappen/amp


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## Beezerk (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s what the guys were saying about n commentary - he was told to give the place up and he slowed


This is Verstap



Can’t see it ? 

So what about this penalty that Hamilton got 

https://racer.com/2021/07/19/fia-explains-why-consequence-not-a-part-of-hamilton-penalty/amp/

Says that Verstappen ended up in hospital as a precaution ? 

Also some penalty points as well 

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2021/07/18/hamilton-issued-penalty-points-following-verstappen-crash/

https://www.skysports.com/amp/f1/ne...formula-1-race-ban-after-russian-gp-penalties

Hamilton doesn’t appear to be the squeaky clean driver that some portray him to be 

https://racingnews365.com/who-is-involved-in-more-on-track-incidents-hamilton-or-verstappen/amp

Click to expand...

I don’t think anyone is saying Hamilton is squeaky clean, good try to deflect though.
Verstappen is an absolute cock of a driver at the minute, if Hamilton was doing the same I’d be slagging him off just as much.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

In the interests of balance, I do also think Masi and the FIA have played their part in things deteriorating. 

The way Max defended in Brazil should have been punished to prevent ambiguity on what is and is not acceptable going forward. 

For me, Monza and Silverstone were both racing incidents caused by two drivers really going for it. The collisions could both have been avoided by either driver, but I don’t have a problem with those kinds of incidents, even if penalties are dished out.

If Masi had referred the Brazil incident to the stewards, or ordered Verstappen to give the place back, we probably wouldn’t have seen Verstappen do the same again yesterday. I can see why Red Bull would be annoyed by that inconsistency, but fact is, he should actually have received a penalty for both. 

The brake testing is impossible to defend though. Regardless of whether Lewis was confused or not, or whether he did or did not want to pass, Verstappen jamming the brakes in that way, completely unnecessarily given he was nowhere near the corner, was unacceptable to me as someone that likes to see fair competition and wheel to wheel racing.


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can’t see it ?
		
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You need to follow the instructions and click on the link that says ''Watch on Youtube''


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You need to follow the instructions and click on the link that says ''Watch on Youtube''
		
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The same instructions as are presented for the video Phil posted…. 😂🤦‍♂️


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## SaintHacker (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			In the interests of balance, I do also think Masi and the FIA have played their part in things deteriorating.

The way Max defended in Brazil should have been punished to prevent ambiguity on what is and is not acceptable going forward.

For me, Monza and Silverstone were both racing incidents caused by two drivers really going for it. The collisions could both have been avoided by either driver, but I don’t have a problem with those kinds of incidents, even if penalties are dished out.

If Masi had referred the Brazil incident to the stewards, or ordered Verstappen to give the place back, we probably wouldn’t have seen Verstappen do the same again yesterday. I can see why Red Bull would be annoyed by that inconsistency, but fact is, he should actually have received a penalty for both.

The brake testing is impossible to defend though. Regardless of whether Lewis was confused or not, or whether he did or did not want to pass, Verstappen jamming the brakes in that way, completely unnecessarily given he was nowhere near the corner, was unacceptable to me as someone that likes to see fair competition and wheel to wheel racing.
		
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For me the Brazil one was worse, he just didn't bother turning in. Yesterday he tried to make the corner but the back end stepped out and he went sideways across the track. The stewards have been horribly inconsistent all season though so no real surprise. 
He was an absolute idiot for the brake test though. In an F1 car just lifting off the throttle is an equivalent deceleration to a hard stop in a road car, so to let a car through you just need to move over and lift. He didn't, he went to the middle of the track and braked. Ridiculous, the fact his engineer came on and said 'we didn't need to do that Max' tells you all you need to know. He should have been punished far more than he was, but I can see why they didn't want to effect the outcome of the championship with penalties.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You need to follow the instructions and click on the link that says ''Watch on Youtube''
		
Click to expand...

Seen it now 

I’m guessing there is the same videos for all the drivers over the years - is Max any different ? 

Hamilton 
Senna
Prost 
Vettel
Schumacher 

They have all gone down lines to try and gain an advantage- it’s funny seeing Vettel cry and complain when he was no different 

And Hamiltons past is littered with incidents and history of crashes 

Put some appear to paint Hamilton as a Saint


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Hamiltons past is littered with incidents and history of crashes
		
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I'm done


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seen it now

I’m guessing there is the same videos for all the drivers over the years - is Max any different ?

Hamilton
Senna
Prost
Vettel
Schumacher

They have all gone down lines to try and gain an advantage- it’s funny seeing Vettel cry and complain when he was no different

And Hamiltons past is littered with incidents and history of crashes

Put some appear to paint Hamilton as a Saint
		
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Well, I suspect there is at least one person in here with blinkers on, perhaps a guy who only recently watched his first full race in years.


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## Dando (Dec 6, 2021)

I think Lewis is a knob but the way Max has been driving this year has been appalling


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seen it now

I’m guessing there is the same videos for all the drivers over the years - is Max any different ?

Hamilton
Senna
Prost
Vettel
Schumacher

They have all gone down lines to try and gain an advantage- it’s funny seeing Vettel cry and complain when he was no different

And Hamiltons past is littered with incidents and history of crashes

Put some appear to paint Hamilton as a Saint
		
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Hamilton is no saint. However, Verstappen has acquired 7 penalty points on his racing licence in the last 12 months. That’s on top of all the other smaller penalties he’s got this season, e.g. the 5 sec and 10 sec penalty he got yesterday. And you’re defending someone with that driving record in one season if you go and Google driver penalties for all the other drivers you will, hopefully, be suitably shocked.

I do wonder just who has the blinkers on…


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Hamilton is no saint. However, Verstappen has acquired 7 penalty points on his racing licence in the last 12 months. That’s on top of all the other smaller penalties he’s got this season, e.g. the 5 sec and 10 sec penalty he got yesterday. And you’re defending someone with that driving record in one season if you go and Google driver penalties for all the other drivers you will, hopefully, be suitably shocked.

I do wonder just who has the blinkers on…
		
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Facts have no place in this discussion. Go and sit in the corner and think about what you’ve done. 😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Hamilton is no saint. However, Verstappen has acquired 7 penalty points on his racing licence in the last 12 months. That’s on top of all the other smaller penalties he’s got this season, e.g. the 5 sec and 10 sec penalty he got yesterday. And you’re defending someone with that driving record in one season if you go and Google driver penalties for all the other drivers you will, hopefully, be suitably shocked.

I do wonder just who has the blinkers on…
		
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https://wtf1.com/post/hamilton-is-now-only-one-reprimand-away-from-a-grid-penalty/

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f...-and-hands-mercedes-fine-4978614/4978614/amp/

https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamilton-slams-ridiculous-penalty-points-as-he-nears-ban/

Seems Hamilton picks up penalty points As well ?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://wtf1.com/post/hamilton-is-now-only-one-reprimand-away-from-a-grid-penalty/

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f...-and-hands-mercedes-fine-4978614/4978614/amp/

https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamilton-slams-ridiculous-penalty-points-as-he-nears-ban/

Seems Hamilton picks up penalty points As well ?
		
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Two of those links are for the same incident, an incident which did not result in Hamilton getting any penalty points.


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## Beezerk (Dec 6, 2021)

Wow 🙈


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Two of those links are for the same incident, an incident which did not result in Hamilton getting any penalty points.
		
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Probably not worth the effort, Liverpoolphil watched his first full race in years, and now he is an F1 Guru.

Pity he has completely missed the subject of this debate. People have been critical of Verstappen's driving, and yet he responds as if the subject of the debate is Hamilton.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://wtf1.com/post/hamilton-is-now-only-one-reprimand-away-from-a-grid-penalty/

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f...-and-hands-mercedes-fine-4978614/4978614/amp/

https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamilton-slams-ridiculous-penalty-points-as-he-nears-ban/

Seems Hamilton picks up penalty points As well ?
		
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I don’t doubt it but to the level of Verstappen? I’m very saddened to see you still defending the indefensible. Verstappen is in another league but you just won’t admit it. Why don’t you post up a little table showing drivers penalties side by side, and then try and defend Verstappen.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Two of those links are for the same incident, an incident which did not result in Hamilton getting any penalty points.
		
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 Hamilton received reprimands which are different. One for doing a practise start from the wrong place on the track, another for not coming back onto the track in the correct manner.  You are comparing yellow cards for dissent with knee high tackles that threaten injury. 

I said yday LH in my opinion had a nasty streak earlier in career, I didn’t and don’t need to debate the point and turn this thread into a back and forth on mine and swangos opinions.  I still stand by my view that he did, and I’m sure massa fans, alonso fans and vettel fans would agree. One thing LH has never been though is a danger to others, and Max is firmly in that camp at the moment. Whether you believe LH has a past or not. Max is currently reckless.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I don’t doubt it but to the level of Verstappen? I’m very saddened to see you still defending the indefensible. Verstappen is in another league but you just won’t admit it. Why don’t you post up a little table showing drivers penalties side by side, and then try and defend Verstappen.
		
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It’s a little out of date, but…

https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Two of those links are for the same incident, an incident which did not result in Hamilton getting any penalty points.
		
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Someone highlighted about Verstappen having 7 ( believe 3 where from yesterday) in the 12 month period and pointing towards the sort of driver Verstappen

Hamilton at one stage had 10 in a 12 month period ( was reduced to 8 ) - he started the season on 6 himself and currently has 2 


Hobbit said:



			I don’t doubt it but to the level of Verstappen? I’m very saddened to see you still defending the indefensible. Verstappen is in another league but you just won’t admit it. Why don’t you post up a little table showing drivers penalties side by side, and then try and defend Verstappen.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not about defending Verstappen it’s more the apparent attitude from some ( just some ) that Hamilton is whiter than white when he has been and no doubt is far from that and has certainly been involved in his fair share of issues - but then so have all the best drivers in the past - how times would Senna or Schumacher be banned with a penalty point system


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Hamilton received reprimands which are different. One for doing a practise start from the wrong place on the track, another for not coming back onto the track in the correct manner.  You are comparing yellow cards for dissent with knee high tackles that threaten injury.

I said yday LH in my opinion had a nasty streak earlier in career, I didn’t and don’t need to debate the point and turn this thread into a back and forth on mine and swangos opinions.  I still stand by my view that he did, and I’m sure massa fans, alonso fans and vettel fans would agree. One thing LH has never been though is a danger to others, and Max is firmly in that camp at the moment. Whether you believe LH has a past or not. Max is currently reckless.
		
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I disagree that Hamilton has a nasty streak. I don’t disagree that he was involved in a lot of silly incidents in the first 5 years or so of his career, particularly the end of his time at McLaren actually, but in my opinion not the types of things that call into question his integrity as a racer, rather things that called into question his decision making and maturity at the time of the incidents.

Verstappen was similar to Hamilton in that regard early in his career, but more recently, I think his driving has slipped below an acceptable standard in terms of his approach to risk / reward decision making. I hope Verstappen’s driving style matures with time because he is hugely talented, that is beyond question, I can’ t help but feel Horner and Red Bull are letting him down in that regard. Really, couldn’t he learn a huge amount from the way Hamilton has developed as a driver?


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Hamilton received reprimands which are different. One for doing a practise start from the wrong place on the track...
		
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I believe that penalty (not merely a 'reprimand') was rescinded/changed to a 'team fine' when full circumstances of the incident were made available. Drivers/teams still need to appreciate the (safety) reasons for such penalties though. Accrued Points penalties, that can result in having to miss a race, seem to me to be an excellent way to 'moderate' driver approach/attitude.
MV seems, to me, to be 'aggressively defending' his position against a faster car and (perhaps) a better team. I had been hoping to see him _outclass_ LH (who has certainly been 'no saint' in the past) and be ahead by enough points to let him ease up for the final race(s) and still become champion. Unfortunately, there's been a distinct lack of 'class' about his driving recently and I predict LH/Mercedes will carry the day in the final race. I hope MV learns - in the same way LH sems to have done - and F1 can maintain both excitement and safety!


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## Piece (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone highlighted about Verstappen having 7 ( believe 3 where from yesterday) in the 12 month period and pointing towards the sort of driver Verstappen

Hamilton at one stage had 10 in a 12 month period ( was reduced to 8 ) - he started the season on 6 himself and currently has 2


It’s not about defending Verstappen it’s more the apparent attitude from some ( just some ) that Hamilton is whiter than white when he has been and no doubt is far from that and has certainly been involved in his fair share of issues - but then so have all the best drivers in the past - how times would Senna or Schumacher be banned with a penalty point system
		
Click to expand...

I've read all these posts and I don't think anyone on this thread is saying Hamilton is a saint. He is an aggressive racer, and always has been. Driving on the limit within the rules, almost all of the time. Max, however, has recently overstepped the mark more often and his driving can be considered potentially dangerous in certain situations. These are the opinions of people (on this thread) who have watched F1 for years, every race, not just the latest race because it has made juicy headlines. Hill has (diplomatically) called out Max, much to Horner's chagrin - you only had to see the frosty exchange yesterday.

I thought the Max undertake on the first corner at the last restart was superb, BTW.


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## Robster59 (Dec 6, 2021)

I'm really not sure if @Liverpoolphil really hates Hamilton or really loves Verstappen as he can't seem to see both sides of the equation. 
An important part about racing such as this is respect for the other racers.  And at the moment I am not seeing that in Verstappen.  He seems to be racing with little thought of consequences, and is in the "win by any means" mindset.  I am not denying he is fast, I am not denying that you have to make it tough to overtake, and also you have to be tough to overtake, but there are limits and Verstappen seems to be overstepping those limits on a regular occasion. 
Of course we've seen this in the past.  Senna and Prost clashing on first corners.  Schumacher taking out Hill in the title decider in Australia in 1994.  Both (to me) were blantantly designed to take the other off.  None were punished. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be now.
We can all look back at incidents in the past.  What needs to be addressed is the here and now.


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## Smiffy (Dec 6, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I'm really not sure if @Liverpoolphil really hates Hamilton or really loves Verstappen.
		
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Neither. He just likes being antagonistic and it wouldn't matter if the subject were motor racing, football or ballroom dancing.
He'd have a differing opinion because that's what he does best.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I disagree that Hamilton has a nasty streak.
		
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You're kdding? How many of his team mates has he fallen out with? Actually, easier if you list the ones he hasn't?


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## Paperboy (Dec 6, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're kdding? How many of his team mates has he fallen out with? Actually, easier if you list the ones he hasn't?
		
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Name one champion that did?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're kdding? How many of his team mates has he fallen out with? Actually, easier if you list the ones he hasn't?
		
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Let’s have them then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I'm really not sure if @Liverpoolphil really hates Hamilton or really loves Verstappen as he can't seem to see both sides of the equation.
An important part about racing such as this is respect for the other racers.  And at the moment I am not seeing that in Verstappen.  He seems to be racing with little thought of consequences, and is in the "win by any means" mindset.  I am not denying he is fast, I am not denying that you have to make it tough to overtake, and also you have to be tough to overtake, but there are limits and Verstappen seems to be overstepping those limits on a regular occasion.
Of course we've seen this in the past.  Senna and Prost clashing on first corners.  Schumacher taking out Hill in the title decider in Australia in 1994.  Both (to me) were blantantly designed to take the other off.  None were punished. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be now.
We can all look back at incidents in the past.  What needs to be addressed is the here and now.
		
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It’s neither - don’t hate Hamilton or love Verstappen 

My initial post was thinking about an opposite forum that was backing Verstappen and pointing fingers at Hamilton - it was a very pro Hamilton conversation from the odd Hammy Fan Boy without seeing that maybe Hamilton is not always the innocent boy some appear to portray 

It was an exciting race because Verstappen was on the edge and going for it - just like some drivers in the past when it was exciting - Senna , Schumacher etc and the sport needs someone like Verstappen to “shake” it up a little 

It was also amusing watching it how much crying and complaining across the radios from all of them - not something I have listened to before 

Now there will always be limits someone needs to ensure they don’t cross but I don’t think Verstappen is looking to deliberately hurt someone and F1 imo needs him to win the title - it would then make next year really exciting with Hamilton coming back at him

The best years for F1 were the Senna/Prost years etc - get that level of rivalry back and it’s a big boost


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're kdding? How many of his team mates has he fallen out with? Actually, easier if you list the ones he hasn't?
		
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That’s irrelevant in my opinion. Falling out with someone is nothing to do with nastiness. 

He’s extremely competitive with a relentless hunger for winning. 

He’s also a fair racer.


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## cliveb (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was an exciting race because Verstappen was on the edge and going for it - just like some drivers in the past when it was exciting - Senna , Schumacher etc and the sport needs someone like Verstappen to “shake” it up a little
		
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The likes of Senna, Prost, Mansell, etc drove on the edge. So does Hamilton. So did Schumacher most of the time. But on occasions, Schuey drove beyond the edge, and Verstappen appears to have taken that to the next step.
It seems to me that Max believes he is entitled to use whatever piece of tarmac is convenient, regardless of whether it's on the track, or indeed if it's occupied by another car.
Horner is doing Max no favours by treating him as the second coming and denying he ever does anything wrong.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			That’s irrelevant in my opinion. Falling out with someone is nothing to do with nastiness.

He’s extremely competitive with a relentless hunger for winning.

He’s also a fair racer.
		
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There was a talk on 5live earlier about Hamilton and Button was talking about what he was like as a teammate and he talked about the year he had with Massa when they kept hitting each other - it was a stage where Hamilton was at where Verstappen is now. Someone also mentioned an issue last year with another Red Bill driver where Hamilton knocked him off as he was overtaking him - then there was the issue in the British Gp - so is it fair all the time ? Or certainly a lot more fair than Verstappen ?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was a talk on 5live earlier about Hamilton and Button was talking about what he was like as a teammate and he talked about the year he had with Massa when they kept hitting each other - it was a stage where Hamilton was at where Verstappen is now. Someone also mentioned an issue last year with another Red Bill driver where Hamilton knocked him off as he was overtaking him - then there was the issue in the British Gp - so is it fair all the time ? Or certainly a lot more fair than Verstappen ?
		
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There is a huge difference in the incidents you mention involving Lewis, and what Max is doing. The incident at Silverstone was judged to be predominantly (not 100%) Lewis’s fault during the race. But after many pundits and ex drivers have laid more of the blame on Max for turning in on Lewis. 
The year he kept having issues with Massa was his second in the sport. This is Max’s 7th I believe.

Senna was dirty, but could keep his car between the white lines. As could Schumacher, but he took outright cheating to another level. He should have had his racing license removed for the incident where he tried to force Barrichello into a wall at 200mph.

Max is now at a completely different level to both of them. He’s not even trying to keep his car on the track. It’s desperate, dangerous driving. The break testing incident yesterday should have resulted in a DQ.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was a talk on 5live earlier about Hamilton and Button was talking about what he was like as a teammate and he talked about the year he had with Massa when they kept hitting each other - it was a stage where Hamilton was at where Verstappen is now. Someone also mentioned an issue last year with another Red Bill driver where Hamilton knocked him off as he was overtaking him - then there was the issue in the British Gp - so is it fair all the time ? Or certainly a lot more fair than Verstappen ?
		
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All drivers make mistakes, no one is denying that and Hamilton took responsibility for bumping Albion. Also, it’s not right to compare Hamilton in his second season in F1 when he was going up against Massa with Verstappen now, given Verstappen is currently in his 7th season in F1. 

Verstappen is young, but he’s no rookie, his driving style should be maturing while actually it seems to be going in the opposite direction.

I would say that on balance, judging both their careers as a whole, Hamilton is considerably fairer in his approach.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was a talk on 5live earlier about Hamilton and Button was talking about what he was like as a teammate and he talked about the year he had with Massa when they kept hitting each other - it was a stage where Hamilton was at where Verstappen is now. Someone also mentioned an issue last year with another Red Bill driver where Hamilton knocked him off as he was overtaking him - then there was the issue in the British Gp - so is it fair all the time ? Or certainly a lot more fair than Verstappen ?
		
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What is your argument here? Your defence for Verstappen appears to be "other drivers, including Lewis, have done dirty things in the past, it is not just Max". Is that a fair summary?


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was a talk on 5live earlier about Hamilton and Button was talking about what he was like as a teammate and he talked about the year he had with Massa when they kept hitting each other - it was a stage where Hamilton was at where Verstappen is now. Someone also mentioned an issue last year with another Red Bill driver where Hamilton knocked him off as he was overtaking him - then there was the issue in the British Gp - so is it fair all the time ? Or certainly a lot more fair than Verstappen ?
		
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You’re talking about years of driving against what Verstappen has done this year. THIS YEAR!

You might think you’ve got a valid argument… no you haven’t, not even close.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 6, 2021)

Dando said:



			I think Lewis is a knob but the way Max has been driving this year has been appalling
		
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I could not of put it better in a shorter sentence. The problem is That Even the non Hamilton fans are hoping he does Verstappen. If Verstappen wins the title there should be an asterisk at the side of it 😉


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I could not of put it better in a shorter sentence. The problem is That Even the non Hamilton fans are hoping he does Verstappen. If Verstappen wins the title there should be an asterisk at the side of it 😉
		
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It’s a shame though because the brilliance of verstappen’s driving is being overshadowed.

We should all be talking about his brilliant overtake on the second restart. That was a great, opportunistic move!


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			It’s a shame though because the brilliance of verstappen’s driving is being overshadowed.

We should all be talking about his brilliant overtake on the second restart. That was a great, opportunistic move!
		
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That brilliant overtake was Lewis leaving the door wiiiiiiiide open.

If Lewis had made any attempt to make the apex Max would have taken them both out. Lewis was so far right he hit Ocon just to make sure Max didn’t torpedo him.

Max is fast. But his race craft is very poor.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			All drivers make mistakes, no one is denying that and Hamilton took responsibility for bumping Albion. Also, it’s not right to compare Hamilton in his second season in F1 when he was going up against Massa with Verstappen now, given Verstappen is currently in his 7th season in F1.

Verstappen is young, but he’s no rookie, his driving style should be maturing while actually it seems to be going in the opposite direction.

I would say that on balance, judging both their careers as a whole, Hamilton is considerably fairer in his approach.
		
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As i said just what they were saying - looking at the penalty points gained Verstappen certainly has had more from crashes with people ( as opposed to the pit Lane offences etc ) 

He maybe around the sport a while but he is still a young lad at 24 so growing up still need to be done yet 

Let’s hope that the title will be sorted by a clean fair race next time out


Swango1980 said:



			What is your argument here? Your defence for Verstappen appears to be "other drivers, including Lewis, have done dirty things in the past, it is not just Max". Is that a fair summary?
		
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there is no “argument” - it’s just a discussion that’s all , not defending anyone or accusing anyone and you don’t need to jump up to defend Hamilton every time. It’s ok , people are ok to have a different view 👍 


Hobbit said:



			You’re talking about years of driving against what Verstappen has done this year. THIS YEAR!

You might think you’ve got a valid argument… no you haven’t, not even close.
		
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Wasn’t the Hamilton issue at Silverstone this year ? And an issue that put Verstappen out of the grand prix and Hamilton was able to go on and win . That’s this year


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As i said just what they were saying - looking at the penalty points gained Verstappen certainly has had more from crashes with people ( as opposed to the pit Lane offences etc )

He maybe around the sport a while but he is still a young lad at 24 so growing up still need to be done yet

Let’s hope that the title will be sorted by a clean fair race next time out


there is no “argument” - it’s just a discussion that’s all , not defending anyone or accusing anyone and you don’t need to jump up to defend Hamilton every time. It’s ok , people are ok to have a different view 👍


Wasn’t the Hamilton issue at Silverstone this year ? And an issue that put Verstappen out of the grand prix and Hamilton was able to go on and win . That’s this year
		
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When did I defend Hamilton all the time? If I did, it was because an incident Hamilton was involved in was brought up (either a Verstappen incident, or incidents from the past). The thread turned from a discussion about Max into one about Hamilton and his driving style.

The main discussion was simply about Max being a dirty driver. It appears you agree Verstappen is a dirty driver, as all you've done is compare to historic incidents that you also feel were underhand (whether we agree or not is irrelevant, as the key point is that if you think they were underhand, you also believe same about Max).

The fact Lewis is the one on the receiving end at the moment is a red herring. Who cares? If it was McLaren and Norris fighting against Max, or Ferrari and Leclerc, I can guarantee we'd be having the same discussion. I may be a Hamilton fan of sorts, but there are plenty of others who are not big fans who still are hugely critical of Max


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			When did I defend Hamilton all the time? If I did, it was because an incident Hamilton was involved in was brought up (either a Verstappen incident, or incidents from the past). The thread turned from a discussion about Max into one about Hamilton and his driving style.

The main discussion was simply about Max being a dirty driver. It appears you agree Verstappen is a dirty driver, as all you've done is compare to historic incidents that you also feel were underhand (whether we agree or not is irrelevant, as the key point is that if you think they were underhand, you also believe same about Max).

The fact Lewis is the one on the receiving end at the moment is a red herring. Who cares? If it was McLaren and Norris fighting against Max, or Ferrari and Leclerc, I can guarantee we'd be having the same discussion. I may be a Hamilton fan of sorts, but there are plenty of others who are not big fans who still are hugely critical of Max
		
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You've fallen for F1Phil's 🎣


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			That brilliant overtake was Lewis leaving the door wiiiiiiiide open.

If Lewis had made any attempt to make the apex Max would have taken them both out. Lewis was so far right he hit Ocon just to make sure Max didn’t torpedo him.

Max is fast. But his race craft is very poor.
		
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Lewis did leave the door open, that is true, but it was still an excellent move to complete the overtake.

Hamilton was over to the right seeing off ocon, not to avoid verstappen. Had Hamilton turned in on verstappen, the resulting crash would have been predominantly hamilton’s fault.

I’m a keen Hamilton fan, but I can appreciate a very good bit of driving when I see one.


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## Slime (Dec 6, 2021)

They are both fabulous drivers, but, whoever takes the title, we still won't know who the better driver is because they are using different machines.
Stick them in identical cars, then we'd know for sure!
Apart from that ................................ come on Max!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 6, 2021)

Brundle has come out and said it was too much https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/3...in-saudi-arabian-gp-say-sky-sports-f1-pundits

I would say I agree with what he says. Verstappen is a fantastic raw talent and a complete natural but that doesn't make the best driver. You have to know where the line between fearless and reckless is and in my opinion he has over stepped that mark too often this season alone. I don't think the behaviour of the team has helped and it seems to have given him a feeling he's teflon (non-stick). Having said all that and whatever the rights and wrongs of the clashes between both drivers it does make it an epic conclusion to the season. Lets hope it's won by the better driver and not a "racing incident"


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## Oddsocks (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Scary that Max mentioned that he has more wins than Lewis.
		
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He knows exactly how he’s going to win that title, hopefully if he goes down this rude the stewards will have enough back bone to ensue it doesn’t count.

Just finished watching the Grand Prix, if that race decides the series it will be disappointing


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## Reemul (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, I suspect there is at least one person in here with blinkers on, perhaps a guy who only recently watched his first full race in years.
		
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The only one with blinkers on here is you Lewis...


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## Slime (Dec 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Brundle has come out and said it was too much https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/3...in-saudi-arabian-gp-say-sky-sports-f1-pundits

I would say I agree with what he says. Verstappen is a fantastic raw talent and a complete natural but that doesn't make the best driver. You have to know where the line between fearless and reckless is and in my opinion he has over stepped that mark too often this season alone. I don't think the behaviour of the team has helped and it seems to have given him a feeling he's teflon (non-stick). Having said all that and whatever the rights and wrongs of the clashes between both drivers it does make it an epic conclusion to the season. *Lets hope it's won by the better driver *and not a "racing incident"
		
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We'll never know unless they're driving the same cars.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

Reemul said:



			The only one with blinkers on here is you Lewis...
		
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Haha, I remember that comeback when I was in nursery school


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## Smiffy (Dec 7, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone also mentioned an issue last year with another Red Bill driver where Hamilton knocked him off as he was overtaking him - then there was the issue in the British Gp
		
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Neither of which you watched apparently.
But don't let that stop you on your mission...

Take a look at the overheads of both incidents where Lewis was pushed off the track during this race, and picture, if you can, that the "other" car wasn't there.
In both instances, Lewis would have made the corner without exceeding track limits.
Now try to imagine Lewis not being there and watch the line of the other car (Verstappens). Ask yourself two questions.... Would he have made those corners and was he on the racing line??
The answers are "No" and "No".
I've posted this before, so I'll apologise in advance for repeating myself, but watch this clip below of Schumacher on Barrichello. Was Schumacher showing his brilliance as a driver, or showing a total disregard for the life of another competitor? I know that if Barrichello had hit that wall, (through no fault of his own), he would have been seriously, (seriously), injured, or most probably killed. 
Schumacher was a brilliant driver. But he was also an arrogant cheat with scant regard to the outcome of some of his moves. Verstappen is his clone.


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2021)

Read an interesting piece from Jensen Button earlier. He thinks that Verstappen is the faster driver, and given a clean run with no breakdowns he would have won the championship by now. But he also goes on to say he’s not yet the better driver, and if he’d been more careful with the car he probably would have had 2 more wins by now.

He also believes that Verstappen and Hamilton are streets ahead of any other driver. He evidenced this by asking the question, “what has Bottas and Perez achieved with their cars.” In effect they have almost identical cars to Verstappen and Hamilton but are not even close in the championship.

Here’s hoping for a clean race on Sunday, and may the best man win.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			Name one champion that did?
		
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Did what?


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Let’s have them then?
		
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Probably Bottas, think that's it isn't it?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 7, 2021)

I’d like to think that everyone, including those bashing him in here think that Max is an exceptional driver.

I watch F1, but wouldn’t class myself as a fan but for me Max’s eagerness to win at all costs this year making him cross a few lines which is taking away from his ability. 

Hopefully he can grow as a driver and I can see him winning multiple championships.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			That’s irrelevant in my opinion. *Falling out with someone is nothing to do with nastiness.*

He’s extremely competitive with a relentless hunger for winning.

He’s also a fair racer.
		
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Not necessarily no of course, however when he falls out with every single one who challenges him, then there's an issue. Only Bottas seems to have avoided that because he's not seen as a threat


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was a talk on 5live earlier about Hamilton and Button was talking about what he was like as a teammate and he talked about the year he had with Massa when they kept hitting each other - it was a stage where Hamilton was at where Verstappen is now. Someone also mentioned an issue last year with another Red Bill driver where Hamilton knocked him off as he was overtaking him - then there was the issue in the British Gp - so is it fair all the time ? Or certainly a lot more fair than Verstappen ?
		
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It's quote amazing how the happy clappers seem to have forgotten all this.  Had the same conversation with my son-in-law a couple years back explaining to him why I thought Hamilton was a d1ck. "All great winners are like that", he says. What, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda? Don't think so. 

At least though he was admitting to Lewis' foibles, this lot think he's untouchable


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The break testing incident yesterday should have resulted in a DQ.
		
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Ah, cos Lewis said it was "brake testing" then it was? Lewis was refusing to overtake, Max was trying to get him to overtake before the DRS zone, he was slowing, he thought he wasn't slowing enough, Lewis had tons of room to get past if he'd wanted to.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Ah, cos Lewis said it was "brake testing" then it was? Lewis was refusing to overtake, Max was trying to get him to overtake before the DRS zone, he was slowing, he thought he wasn't slowing enough, Lewis had tons of room to get past if he'd wanted to.
		
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Read the FIA report!


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			I’d like to think that everyone, including those bashing him in here think that Max is an exceptional driver.

I watch F1, but wouldn’t class myself as a fan but for me Max’s eagerness to win at all costs this year making him cross a few lines which is taking away from his ability.

Hopefully he can grow as a driver and I can see him winning multiple championships.
		
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I’ve bashed him because of the lines he’s crossed, not because of how skilled he is. I made a comment to HID on Sunday, she been a gp visiting spectator longer than me(40+yrs), is they both need to be sat down with the governing body and told to keep it clean.

Whoever wins next Sunday needs to do so ‘cleanly’ or their win will be tarnished with controversy and talk of cheating to achieve it.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Ah, cos Lewis said it was "brake testing" then it was? Lewis was refusing to overtake, Max was trying to get him to overtake before the DRS zone, he was slowing, he thought he wasn't slowing enough, Lewis had tons of room to get past if he'd wanted to.
		
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This is why I want to know the order of the radio messages. If Lewis hadn’t been told about it, then all he has is a slow moving red bull with what he thinks is a “dangerous” driver in it. They were well ahead of the chasing pack to not worry about them and he knows he has to finish the race so I can understand why he would be so cautious.

If Max had slowed right down straigh away and been all the way over to the right, then Lewis would have just driven straight past him. I think Lewis was least to blame for that incident, but depending on the radio messages, some of the blame must fall on the teams/FIA(Massi)


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			This is why I want to know the order of the radio messages. If Lewis hadn’t been told about it, then all he has is a slow moving red bull with what he thinks is a “dangerous” driver in it. They were well ahead of the chasing pack to not worry about them and he knows he has to finish the race so I can understand why he would be so cautious.

If Max had slowed right down straigh away and been all the way over to the right, then Lewis would have just driven straight past him. I think Lewis was least to blame for that incident, but depending on the radio messages, some of the blame must fall on the teams/FIA(Massi)
		
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Hamilton admitted in a later press conference that he guessed that Verstappen wanted the pass just before the DRS zone but he didn’t want to take it then. Quite why Verstappen then hit the brakes so fiercely only he knows exactly. We can guess but we might not be right.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Hamilton admitted in a later press conference that he guessed that Verstappen wanted the pass just before the DRS zone but he didn’t want to take it then. Quite why Verstappen then hit the brakes so fiercely only he knows exactly. We can guess but we might not be right.
		
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But it was still a guess. If he knew Max was letting him past I don’t think they collide


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Read the FIA report!
		
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Yes he braked to let Lewis past, having already slowed and Lewis wouldn't pass.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Hamilton admitted in a later press conference that he guessed that Verstappen wanted the pass just before the DRS zone but he didn’t want to take it then. Quite why Verstappen then hit the brakes so fiercely only he knows exactly. We can guess but we might not be right.
		
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Because he wanted Lewis to pass and they were coming to the DRS zone. Of course I guess that's not the "guess" Lewis fanboys want to put on it?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Because he wanted Lewis to pass and they were coming to the DRS zone. Of course I guess that's not the "guess" Lewis fanboys want to put on it?
		
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Just another pointless contribution, where criticism is made of Max, and you try and turn it into an argument about Lewis. Like it makes a difference as to whether is was Lewis or any other driver behind Max.

Lewis would have passed Max if Max had simply moved to the side of the circuit and continued at that slow pace. Instead, when Lewis was directly behind him, he suddenly hit the brakes. Whether he was brake testing him, whether he wanted Lewis to crash or whether he simply wanted Lewis to get past quickly before DRS line does not really matter (well, it matters in the sense, but we can only speculate what was going through his head). What matters is it was extremely dangerous and careless. It was a crazy decision.

Max is a fast driver, but I suspect he has a few screws loose in that head of his. At 24, he drives like a child. If it was a driver down the field, they'd be getting criticism from all quarters. But, because he is the only one giving Lewis a fight at the top, he is getting away with murder. And he can do no wrong as far as Red Bull are concerned.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

For me the problem with the Max and Lewis problem is that “ fans” and “ haters” of both drivers are trying to defend there driver. Even to the extent of ignoring facts. All Verstappen had to do was move to one side or the other, he had numerous chances to do that. He could of even chosen his preferred side to move over. What did he do, sit in the middle of the track and hit his brakes. How can you ignore that. More importantly how can you try and defend his actions.
This title race should be the most exciting one for years based upon driving and yet Max has turned it into a dangerous side show. With the powers that be allowing him. They are setting a very dangerous precedent at a time when safety measures implemented are paramount to the sport.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Not necessarily no of course, however when he falls out with every single one who challenges him, then there's an issue. Only Bottas seems to have avoided that because he's not seen as a threat
		
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He didn’t fall out with Kovalainen or button either. To be fair, I’d like to see an example of two teammates battling it out for the championship that were able to remain friends?


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



*Just another pointless contribution,* where criticism is made of Max, and you try and turn it into an argument about Lewis. Like it makes a difference as to whether is was Lewis or any other driver behind Max.

Lewis would have passed Max if Max had simply moved to the side of the circuit and continued at that slow pace. Instead, when Lewis was directly behind him, he suddenly hit the brakes. Whether he was brake testing him, whether he wanted Lewis to crash or whether he simply wanted Lewis to get past quickly before DRS line does not really matter (well, it matters in the sense, but we can only speculate what was going through his head). What matters is it was extremely dangerous and careless. It was a crazy decision.

Max is a fast driver, but I suspect he has a few screws loose in that head of his. At 24, he drives like a child. If it was a driver down the field, they'd be getting criticism from all quarters. But, because he is the only one giving Lewis a fight at the top, he is getting away with murder. And he can do no wrong as far as Red Bull are concerned.
		
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Good een, coming from you.

Lewis was at fault for not overtaking, the contortions some are coming out with to make him appear blameless is ridiculous. "he didn't know what Max was doing so didn't overtake"? Really? Since when was that ever a thing in F1? Maybe on a foggy side road in Aberdeenshire a degree of caution might be called for, but on a wide open straight on an F1 curcuit? Come on, laughable. 


And no we "can't speculate what went through his head", he already said that he slowed to let him past and couldn't understand why he wasn't passing, so slowed further (by dipping the brakes), if Lewis hadn't fannied around, he'd have been past no problem.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 7, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			He didn’t fall out with Kovalainen or button either. To be fair, I’d like to see an example of two teammates battling it out for the championship that were able to remain friends?
		
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He did fall out with Button in the end.

Jim Clark and Graham Hill? 
Jackie Stewart & Graham Hill?
Nikki Lauda?
Mario Andretti?
Fangio?
Moss?
Hawthorn?
Brabham?
Rindt?
Alan Jones?
Damon Hill?
Kimi?


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## DanFST (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Good een, coming from you.

Lewis was at fault for not overtaking, the contortions some are coming out with to make him appear blameless is ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...

No, he wasn't. Hence 2 penalty points on Max's license. Let's not turn this into the cesspit that is F1 twitter.  


He could of done more to evade it, but Max used his car in a dangerous manner that caused it all. End.


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			...
Lewis was at fault for not overtaking, ...
if Lewis hadn't fannied around, he'd have been past no problem.
		
Click to expand...

And into the DRS zone where a re-pass was likely!


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## BiMGuy (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Good een, coming from you.

Lewis was at fault for not overtaking, the contortions some are coming out with to make him appear blameless is ridiculous. "he didn't know what Max was doing so didn't overtake"? Really? Since when was that ever a thing in F1? Maybe on a foggy side road in Aberdeenshire a degree of caution might be called for, but on a wide open straight on an F1 curcuit? Come on, laughable.


And no we "can't speculate what went through his head", he already said that he slowed to let him past and couldn't understand why he wasn't passing, so slowed further (*by dipping the brakes*), if Lewis hadn't fannied around, he'd have been past no problem.
		
Click to expand...

If you’re going to troll a discussion, at least try a bit harder. Applying 69bar of breaking pressure causing 2.4g of retardation, is a smidge more than dipping the breaks. But I’m sure you know that 😉

Just in case you didn’t. For context, an F1 car will typically see 1g of retardation just by lifting off the accelerator down a main straight. A typical family car would need to be doing a full on emergency stop to see the same.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Good een, coming from you.

*Lewis was at fault for not overtaking*, the contortions some are coming out with to make him appear blameless is ridiculous. "he didn't know what Max was doing so didn't overtake"? Really? Since when was that ever a thing in F1? Maybe on a foggy side road in Aberdeenshire a degree of caution might be called for, but on a wide open straight on an F1 curcuit? Come on, laughable.


And no we "can't speculate what went through his head", he already said that he slowed to let him past and couldn't understand why he wasn't passing, so slowed further (by dipping the brakes), if Lewis hadn't fannied around, he'd have been past no problem.
		
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That statement is simply comical. Like him or not, most will agree that Hamilton is one of the best drivers in the world. Now, I appreciate you may have driven up to 80mph on a motorway and are therefore a much better position to tell us Hamilton is to blame. However, I am going to go with the safe option here. I suspect Hamilton had no desire at all to smash into the back of a Formula 1 car at high speed. I also assume he wanted to go past Max. We have no idea when he was told Max would be letting him past, or when it dawned on him. However, even if it dawned on him at the last minute that Max was going to let him past, 100% fair play to him by having the awareness to tactically slow down himself to ensure it was not before the DRS line. If Max is allowed to significantly slow down to try and use the DRS line to his advantage and control when Lewis passes, then Lewis should also be afforded the same allowance to choose when he passes tactically.

Regardless, that is all speculation. It is a lot to process in fractions of seconds, especially if Lewis was not aware of what was about to happen. Simple fact is, Max tried to tactically let Lewis past that would work to Max's advantage. Hamilton did not do so, so Max just desperately slammed on the brakes. Absolutely crazy.

You are the only person I've heard say Lewis was at fault, at that comment alone indicates you really have no clue what you are on about. It is simply a case that you are arguing for the sake of it.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

DanFST said:



			No, he wasn't. *Hence 2 penalty points* on Max's license. Let's not turn this into the cesspit that is F1 twitter.


He could of done more to evade it, but Max used his car in a dangerous manner that caused it all. End.
		
Click to expand...

like I said, some folk ignore the facts. 👍


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 7, 2021)

Some of you guys seem to know a lot about F1 and I bow to your superior knowledge.

Just a quickie and no googling. Probably easy for the majority

What are the 2 scenarios where The Championship will be tied before Max wins?


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## yandabrown (Dec 7, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Some of you guys seem to know a lot about F1 and I bow to your superior knowledge.

Just a quickie and no googling. Probably easy for the majority

What are the 2 scenarios where The Championship will be tied before Max wins?
		
Click to expand...

I can think of 3


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## yandabrown (Dec 7, 2021)

oops, pressed wrong button
1) Both fail to finish in the points
2) Max is last but Hamilton gets point for fastest lap
3) Max is 9th and Hamilton 10th but Hamilton gets point for fastest lap


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Because he wanted Lewis to pass and they were coming to the DRS zone. Of course I guess that's not the "guess" Lewis fanboys want to put on it?
		
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I’ve just twigged. You’re Verstappen!! Or maybe you have a guide dog in your car. Whatever we might think, the stewards have called it. They are the experts not us. As someone else said, go and read the FIA report…


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Good een, coming from you.

Lewis was at fault for not overtaking, the contortions some are coming out with to make him appear blameless is ridiculous. "he didn't know what Max was doing so didn't overtake"? Really? Since when was that ever a thing in F1? Maybe on a foggy side road in Aberdeenshire a degree of caution might be called for, but on a wide open straight on an F1 curcuit? Come on, laughable.


And no we "can't speculate what went through his head", he already said that he slowed to let him past and couldn't understand why he wasn't passing, so slowed further (by dipping the brakes), if Lewis hadn't fannied around, he'd have been past no problem.
		
Click to expand...

Lewis at fault for overtaking… you need your head read. It’s up to Lewis to decide if he wants to overtake at that point. The expectation is he would but the rule states Verstappen has to give up the place, not that Hamilton has to take it. Give it a rest, you’re coming across as a bit silly now.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 7, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			oops, pressed wrong button
1) Both fail to finish in the points
2) Max is last but Hamilton gets point for fastest lap
3) Max is 9th and Hamilton 10th but Hamilton gets point for fastest lap
		
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Are you sure about 2)?


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## yandabrown (Dec 7, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Are you sure about 2)?
		
Click to expand...

No, but I wasn't allowed to Google it


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## yandabrown (Dec 7, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Are you sure about 2)?
		
Click to expand...

No, I meant 10th! not last.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			No, I meant 10th! not last.
		
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Hamilton would not get a point for fastest lap if he finished outside top 10, so No.2 not correct


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2021)

They had the Sky F1 guy this morning going through past incidents on the last day and also general discussion about Verstappen - his stance was that at times Verstappen gets a bit too labelled the bad guy but doesn’t help himself 

He is put the slowing down incident as poor communication with Verstappen trying to be a bit clever when he was doing it but certainly no fault on Hamilton


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## cliveb (Dec 7, 2021)

The "brake test" debate.
Max says he knew that Lewis was failing to pass before the DRS line. So we can conclude that Max was keeping a careful eye on his mirrors.
Therefore, Max knew that Lewis was right on his gearbox when he applied the brakes.
From this it's clear that Max is either pretty dumb, or very sneaky. I reckon he was trying to engineer a double DNF, because at that point he knew he was beaten.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2021)

cliveb said:



			The "brake test" debate.
Max says he knew that Lewis was failing to pass before the DRS line. So we can conclude that Max was keeping a careful eye on his mirrors.
Therefore, Max knew that Lewis was right on his gearbox when he applied the brakes.
From this it's clear that Max is either pretty dumb, or very sneaky. I reckon he was trying to engineer a double DNF, because at that point he knew he was beaten.
		
Click to expand...

I'll stop short of saying that is definitely the case, but it could well be a possibility, and one that would have suited him very well if he could get away with it.

The worst thing that could have happened to Max would be his car could not finish, but somehow Hamilton kept his car going. The best thing that could have happened would be Lewis was wiped out, and Max somehow finished the race. So, I wonder what the odds would have been in each situation? I'm guessing the front nose of Hamilton's car is a lot more fragile than back of Max's car, and so it could have been more likely that Lewis would suffer more than Max than the other way around. He also was pretty quick to accelerate away as soon as contact was made, it is almost as if he was expecting it and ready to get clear.

Either way, sudden braking in front of another Formula 1 car is crazy (outside normal braking for a corner), definitely dumb and/or sneaky.


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## 4LEX (Dec 7, 2021)

A double DNF in Abu Dhabi would also hand Max the title buy 9 wins to 8. I wouldn't put past him trying something very sneaky again. It's going to be an amazing weekend.


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## yandabrown (Dec 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Hamilton would not get a point for fastest lap if he finished outside top 10, so No.2 not correct
		
Click to expand...

I did not know that, thank you 👍.
How about Hamilton 9th and Max 10th with the fastest lap? I'm sure that we'll be fed all these combinations in the build up next week.  Shame I'll not be getting to watch it.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Hamilton would not get a point for fastest lap if he finished outside top 10, so No.2 not correct
		
Click to expand...

Genuinely interested as to why that is, and is it fair 😳👍


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

4LEX said:



			A double DNF in Abu Dhabi would also hand Max the title buy 9 wins to 8. I wouldn't put past him trying something very sneaky again. It's going to be an amazing weekend.
		
Click to expand...

personally I hope Bottas wipes out Max 👍


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## BiMGuy (Dec 7, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Genuinely interested as to why that is, and is it fair 😳👍
		
Click to expand...

The point available for fastest lap is only awarded if the driver who sets it finishes in the top ten.

There has been instances where drivers outside the top 10 have the fastest lap, but they don’t get a point. Both Mercedes and Redbull have used their number two driver this way to take a point of Lewis or Max.

Personally, I don’t like it. It’s another gimmick to try and spice up the show.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2021)

All I want is the two contenders to have a clean qualification, no penalties for changing any part of the car and then a clean start and the best man wins (aided by a sound pit strategy). What I want and what I think will happen many not be the same thing


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The point available for fastest lap is only awarded if the driver who sets it finishes in the top ten.

There has been instances where drivers outside the top 10 have the fastest lap, but they don’t get a point. Both Mercedes and Redbull have used their number two driver this way to take a point of Lewis or Max.

Personally, I don’t like it. It’s another gimmick to try and spice up the show.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers me man, it now makes sense.👍


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## Slime (Dec 7, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			personally I hope Bottas wipes out Max 👍
		
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Personally, I hope Perez wipes out Lewis.


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## dewsweeper (Dec 7, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They had the Sky F1 guy this morning going through past incidents on the last day and also general discussion about Verstappen - his stance was that at times Verstappen gets a bit too labelled the bad guy but doesn’t help himself 

He is put the slowing down incident as poor communication with Verstappen trying to be a bit clever when he was doing it but certainly no fault on Hamilton
		
Click to expand...

Bit like you on the forum


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Genuinely interested as to why that is, and is it fair 😳👍
		
Click to expand...

It is to stop everyone outside the top 10 pitting in the last couple of laps, and simply going out with fresh tyres, low fuel and hunting a point. That wouldn't be fair, as they genuinely wouldn't be the quickest cars or drivers in field, but have nothing to lose.

So, only awarded to drivers in the points. Generally means they cannot pit at end to get the fresh tyres, as they lose all the position points. Unless, of course they've built up a big enough lead to driver behind them.

Sometimes, if championship rival has fastest lap near end, and a team mate of yours is not in points, they may pit him to get fastest lap. He won't get a point, but takes it of the rival. So, if Hamilton had fastest lap, and Perez was in 12th, Red Bull likely to pit him if he cannot get into Top 10 to get fastest lap and take a point of Hamilton.


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## CliveW (Dec 8, 2021)

Worth a watch...







And this...


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## SaintHacker (Dec 8, 2021)

Slime said:



			Personally, I hope Perez wipes out Lewis. 

Click to expand...

I hope Perez wipes out Verstappen, just to see the look on Horner and Markos faces


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## bobmac (Dec 8, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I hope Perez wipes out Verstappen, just to see the look on Horner and Markos faces

Click to expand...

I'd pay good money to see that, and the drivers punch-up afterwards.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2021)

The decision is straight forward for red bull they have to give the position back. “Strategically” 🤣
Meadows is too slow, in this case… and Lewis is not dynamic enough.. but it’s all water under the bridge muddied by DRS


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 8, 2021)

CliveW said:



			Worth a watch...







And this...







Click to expand...

Oops. So Max didn't brake test him after all? 

Few red faces on here after watching those, but I doubt they'll admit it. Damon Hill will be wrong, Paul DiResta will be wrong, Anthony Hamilton will be wrong. No doubt


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## Robster59 (Dec 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			personally I hope Bottas wipes out Max 👍
		
Click to expand...




Slime said:



			Personally, I hope Perez wipes out Lewis. 

Click to expand...

Personally, I'm disappointed in both these statements and the fact that so many people "liked" them.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Oops. So Max didn't brake test him after all?

Few red faces on here after watching those, but I doubt they'll admit it. Damon Hill will be wrong, Paul DiResta will be wrong, Anthony Hamilton will be wrong. No doubt 

Click to expand...

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-saudi-arabia-incident-apology/

Now go find a list of people who did think Max was in the wrong, try to include people who have actually raced.

Find anyone who doesn’t have an irrational dislike of Lewis, that has raced in any series (karting on a stag do doesn’t count) and they will tell you what Max did was inexcusable.

But, I suppose the opinion of someone on YouTube using the made up telemetry based on the F1 app timing data, is more valid than the FIAs who used the actual data from Max’s car? 

And the more you reference Paul DiResta the less serious I’m going to take your arguments.


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## cliveb (Dec 8, 2021)

Latest quote from Horner: “Max has been head and shoulders, for me, the driver of the year. He would be very deserving to win this championship. The way he’s driven, the way he’s conducted himself."
Crikey, Horner has really lost all sense of reality. Does he honestly believe this? He probably thinks Geri was the best singer in the Spice Girls, too. Is Christian Horner the Donald Trump of F1?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 8, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Latest quote from Horner: “Max has been head and shoulders, for me, the driver of the year. He would be very deserving to win this championship. The way he’s driven, the way he’s conducted himself."
Crikey, Horner has really lost all sense of reality. Does he honestly believe this? He probably thinks Geri was the best singer in the Spice Girls, too. Is Christian Horner the Donald Trump of F1?
		
Click to expand...

The Red Bull brand are the Donald Trump of F1. He'd have probably labellled Geri "Singer of the Year", worldwide, not just within the Spice Girls.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Latest quote from Horner: “Max has been head and shoulders, for me, the driver of the year. He would be very deserving to win this championship. The way he’s driven, the way he’s conducted himself."
Crikey, Horner has really lost all sense of reality. Does he honestly believe this? He probably thinks Geri was the best singer in the Spice Girls, too. Is Christian Horner the Donald Trump of F1?
		
Click to expand...

Horner is dodgey on a few levels and lucked into the red bull shindig 
But I am more interested in debating which of the spice girls could sing .. my bet is sporty spice but I am very happy to hear other opinions and won’t respond with insults 👍


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## jim8flog (Dec 8, 2021)

Watching "Ted's Notebook" last night I was astounded at the number of staff Mercedes have at the track when the majority of them gathered together for the team photo after the race so many I could not count as the camera kept changing angles but it looked something in the region of 80 -100.


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## Beezerk (Dec 8, 2021)

CliveW said:



			Worth a watch...







Click to expand...

Why does Max steer slightly left a couple of times when he’s already in the middle of the track and supposedly letting Hamilton past? 🤔


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 8, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Brundle has come out and said it was too much https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/3...in-saudi-arabian-gp-say-sky-sports-f1-pundits

I would say I agree with what he says. Verstappen is a fantastic raw talent and a complete natural but that doesn't make the best driver. You have to know where the line between fearless and reckless is and in my opinion he has over stepped that mark too often this season alone. I don't think the behaviour of the team has helped and it seems to have given him a feeling he's teflon (non-stick). Having said all that and whatever the rights and wrongs of the clashes between both drivers it does make it an epic conclusion to the season. Lets hope it's won by the better driver and not a "racing incident"
		
Click to expand...

Those were Brundles comments from during the live race commentary. Here is his weekly column.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/2...verstappen-has-to-stop-these-hamilton-tactics

It's a very fair assessment of Verstappen.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			And the more you reference Paul DiResta the less serious I’m going to take your arguments.
		
Click to expand...

First time I've mentioned him. So your point is that folks on this amateur golf forum have more idea about professional motor racing than an ex-driver?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			First time I've mentioned him. So your point is that folks on this amateur golf forum have more idea about professional motor racing than an ex-driver?
		
Click to expand...

Di Resta did not have all of the info at the time he did that analysis, did he? Wasn't it before the stewards revealed the telemetry data showing that Verstappen braked with considerable force? Di Resta was likely influenced by the statements coming from Marko, who has now apologised as what he said was incorrect.

The stewards decision and reasoning for it is very clear. What is left to discuss as far as apportionment of blame is concerned? There can be no doubt that it was predominantly Verstappen's fault.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			First time I've mentioned him. So your point is that folks on this amateur golf forum have more idea about professional motor racing than an ex-driver?
		
Click to expand...

Clearly not in all cases, you are proof in the pudding. I assume this ex-driver you reference knows more than the FIA then?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 8, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Why does Max steer slightly left a couple of times when he’s already in the middle of the track and supposedly letting Hamilton past? 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Like I said before. If a driver did this at any other race, in any other category it would result in an instant black flag and quite likely a ban. And a bit of fisticuffs.

But F1 has “the show” to think about. They will be loving this as it generates headlines, and appeals to those with short attention spans.


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## Piece (Dec 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Oops. So Max didn't brake test him after all?

Few red faces on here after watching those, but I doubt they'll admit it. Damon Hill will be wrong, Paul DiResta will be wrong, Anthony Hamilton will be wrong. No doubt 

Click to expand...

This "video" is now totally irrelevant. The FIA report is the definitive finding; Max did brake and was seen to be largely (not exclusively) at fault and thus has a 10s penalty added to his race time and a couple of points on his racing licence. The end.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			First time I've mentioned him. So your point is that folks on this amateur golf forum have more idea about professional motor racing than an ex-driver?
		
Click to expand...

PDR is so biased against Lewis he makes the Channel 4 coverage look balanced and impartial.
Maybe go and do some research on why.

As I have already said. There are far more people who think what Max did should have resulted in stronger penalty, than you will find saying Max did nothing wrong.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Personally, I'm disappointed in both these statements and the fact that so many people "liked" them.
		
Click to expand...

Personally I don’t want to see a cheat prosper. Maybe others feel the same way 👍


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Latest quote from Horner: “Max has been head and shoulders, for me, the driver of the year. He would be very deserving to win this championship. The way he’s driven, the way he’s conducted himself."
Crikey, Horner has really lost all sense of reality. Does he honestly believe this? *He probably thinks Geri was the best singer in the Spice Girls, too*. Is Christian Horner the Donald Trump of F1?
		
Click to expand...

😳Geri could sing, every days a skool day 😁


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## Robster59 (Dec 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Personally I don’t want to see a cheat prosper. Maybe others feel the same way 👍
		
Click to expand...

Neither do I, but, IMHO, that's not the way to win races.


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## bobmac (Dec 8, 2021)

Will Lewis use a new engine for this last race?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Neither do I, but, IMHO, that's not the way to win races.
		
Click to expand...

It’s deffo not, am sure Prost would agree.


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## jim8flog (Dec 8, 2021)

I seriously hope there is not a definite "crashing moment" in the last race but if there is I hope the penalty will be the same as they gave to Michael Schumacher i.e a points deduction.


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## Wabinez (Dec 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Will Lewis use a new engine for this last race?
		
Click to expand...

I very much doubt it. The grid place penalty could get him behind the 8-ball.

He still has the ‘rocket’ engine in from
Brazil….though I imagine they may use a different engine in practice so as to not put miles on it.


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## Neilds (Dec 8, 2021)

With regard to Lewis Hamilton and his many engines that he has used this year (cheating? ) can anyone explain why he got a 10 place penalty for the first extra engine and only 5 places for the 2nd?  Surely the 2nd rule breach should have a stricter penalty as it was a repeat offence.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 8, 2021)

Neilds said:



			With regard to Lewis Hamilton and his many engines that he has used this year (cheating? ) can anyone explain why he got a 10 place penalty for the first extra engine and only 5 places for the 2nd?  Surely the 2nd rule breach should have a stricter penalty as it was a repeat offence.
		
Click to expand...

From what I understand, the first breach of going over the 3 engine limit is 10 grid slots within the regulations, breaches thereafter are 5 slots. I think the majority of drivers / teams have had to take at least one penalty for going beyond the limit this season.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 8, 2021)

Neilds said:



			With regard to Lewis Hamilton and his many engines that he has used this year (cheating? ) can anyone explain why he got a 10 place penalty for the first extra engine and only 5 places for the 2nd?  Surely the 2nd rule breach should have a stricter penalty as it was a repeat offence.
		
Click to expand...

Ironically they were the rules put in place because of the Honda engines only lasting half a race. It’s 10 places for the 4th ICE then 5 places for each subsequent component of the PU.

Can’t see how it’s considered cheating when they are just following the rules. Redbull have also used more than their original allocation of PU components.

Max has actually use more PU components than Lewis this season according to the page below.

https://www.f1-fansite.com/2021-f1-season/2021-used-f1-power-unit-elements/


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## Smiffy (Dec 9, 2021)

Tiff Needell knows what he's talking about...


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## bobmac (Dec 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Tiff Needell knows what he's talking about...






Click to expand...

Does that mean I know what I'm talking about, I've been saying the same thing for years


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## BiMGuy (Dec 9, 2021)

Some nice additions to the Race Director’s notes for this weekend. 
Translated to, please behave yourselves Redbull and Jos 😂


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## bobmac (Dec 9, 2021)

Interesting


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2021)

Channel 4 have got the rights to show it live just in case anyone without Sky Sports wants to watch it.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2021)

I'm no fan of Hamilton but Verstappen does come across as a whiney little child at times....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59593834


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm no fan of Hamilton but Verstappen does come across as a whiney little child at times....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59593834

Click to expand...

Saw that and thought the same thing.

Seems, to me, that he needs some sort of 'father figure' - who he will respect and can turn the 'aggression' volume down ever so slightly, or at least focus it more productively. And perhaps even accept that he/they are not as fast/slick as the opposition - and address that 'problem'. From ancient memory, Hamilton acted similarly in his early days too, but he found a team/a team was created that was both fast and 'relaxed'. I'm certain Nicki Lauda is able to provide that sort of 'temperance balancing' role for them where required. It's slightly disappointing that both teams #2 drivers are 'so far off the pace' (they are not really, just not quite as outstanding as the #1s).


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## cliveb (Dec 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Seems, to me, that he needs some sort of 'father figure' - who he will respect and can turn the 'aggression' volume down ever so slightly, or at least focus it more productively.
		
Click to expand...

He does have a father figure. It's his father. And Jos is as bad as the rest of them (Horner, Marko) in thinking his boy can do no wrong.


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## bobmac (Dec 10, 2021)

cliveb said:



			He does have a father figure. It's his father. And Jos is as bad as the rest of them (Horner, Marko) in thinking his boy can do no wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Hid dad was convicted of assault in October 2000 over an incident at a karting track in 1998 in which a man suffered a fractured skull.

In 2008, he was fined and sentenced to three months suspended jail time for harassment and assault against his ex-wife

In 2011 he apparently had an argument with his 24-year-old ex-girlfriend. The paper says that he then deliberately struck her with his car, leaving her heavy bruises and abrasions. She was then taken to the hospital. Verstappen later reported to the police station where he was arrested.

Not the best role model


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Hid dad was convicted of assault in October 2000 over an incident at a karting track in 1998 in which a man suffered a fractured skull.

In 2008, he was fined and sentenced to three months suspended jail time for harassment and assault against his ex-wife

In 2011 he apparently had an argument with his 24-year-old ex-girlfriend. The paper says that he then deliberately struck her with his car, leaving her heavy bruises and abrasions. She was then taken to the hospital. Verstappen later reported to the police station where he was arrested.

Not the best role model
		
Click to expand...

Suddenly have a little more empathy for Max Verstappen. With a father like that, he never really stood a chance. Explains a lot.

However, I probably want Max to win even less than I did now, if that was possible. Just to annoy Jos.


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## Beedee (Dec 10, 2021)

I wonder if Red Bull's B Team will have any bearing on things this weekend?  Gasly is quick enough to be close to the front of the grid and could well be involved if things get "interesting" in the early laps.  I'm absolutely certain that if Verstappen finds himself behind an Alpha Tauri at any point during the race it will be the easiest overtake he's ever made.

Tbh I can't believe that Red Bull have been allowed to run 2 teams for years.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2021)

Beedee said:



			I wonder if Red Bull's B Team will have any bearing on things this weekend?  Gasly is quick enough to be close to the front of the grid and could well be involved if things get "interesting" in the early laps.  I'm absolutely certain that if Verstappen finds himself behind an Alpha Tauri at any point during the race it will be the easiest overtake he's ever made.

Tbh I can't believe that Red Bull have been allowed to run 2 teams for years.
		
Click to expand...

This general quote relates to football:

"A key aspect of the sporting world is to protect the integrity of the competition. If there is not a fair competition in the sporting context, this overshadows the sporting contest. It is therefore felt that if two football clubs are playing in the same competition and are owned by the same person or business this could diminish the integrity of the competition"

I guess the same logic does not apply to F1? And, I guess most fans can overlook it, as the main Red Bull team and Mercedes are so far ahead of the other teams at the moment. However, it is true. There is little incentive for Gasly to fight it out, or make things difficult for the main Red Bull team. In fact, it is counter productive. If he makes things a little tricky for Max, he'll probably get a big slap on the wrist, if he crashed with Max that would be an absolute shocker from him. However, the same can not be said if he was to come up against Hamilton. In fact, if he crashed with Hamilton, I doubt his bosses would be as upset as if he crashed with Max. In fact, he might even privately get a nice little Xmas bonus.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2021)

Is there anything to be read into FP1? Do the teams turn down their engines to protect them?


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## Cherry13 (Dec 10, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Is there anything to be read into FP1? Do the teams turn down their engines to protect them?
		
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Not really, fp2 will be more insightful as track temp will be the same as race and they tend to do race/qualifying runs in 2. 
First practise is just a bit of a sighter really.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 10, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Is there anything to be read into FP1? Do the teams turn down their engines to protect them?
		
Click to expand...

They will be using old engines and gear boxes today, saving the fresher parts for  Saturday and Sunday.

I very much doubt either we’re showing their true pace, both will have just been working on setup and the track temperature isn’t representative. FP2 will probably be a better guide as to the likely pace, but we won’t truly know till Q3.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			They will be using old engines and gear boxes today, saving the fresher parts for  Saturday and Sunday.

I very much doubt either we’re showing their true pace, both will have just been working on setup and the track temperature isn’t representative. FP2 will probably be a better guide as to the likely pace, but we won’t truly know till Q3.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's what I thought.

Race engine in tomorrow for FP3 and qualifying?

Appears that Mercedes have the pace on the straights in FP1, it's going to be interesting


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2021)

cliveb said:



			He does have a father figure. It's his father. And Jos is as bad as the rest of them (Horner, Marko) in thinking his boy can do no wrong.
		
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bobmac said:



			...
Not the best role model
		
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Yes, having considered whether to mention Jos and his 'incidents', I figured it was better to simply leave all reference to him out!
But Max DOES need some sort of 'proper' 'moderator' imo. It's too late to be as Hamilton had (though that wasn't always 'plain sailing'), but a previous champion (Jos was never quite good enough imo) driver _might_ be a worthwhile investment for RB.


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## Smiffy (Dec 10, 2021)

Imagine if you can...
Last minute of qualifying on Saturday.
Max has stuck it on provisional pole and Lewis is going for the big one.
Suddenly, one of the Alpha Tauris has a bit of a wobble on coming into sector three and the yellows are waved, thereby cocking up his attempt at pole position.
Nah ...too far fetched to even think about isn't it???
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2021)

oooof.....substantial shunt for Kimi, his mechanics are going to be busy tonight. 

Been an interesting FP2


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## Cherry13 (Dec 10, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Imagine if you can...
Last minute of qualifying on Saturday.
Max has stuck it on provisional pole and Lewis is going for the big one.
Suddenly, one of the Alpha Tauris has a bit of a wobble on coming into sector three and the yellows are waved, thereby cocking up his attempt at pole position.
Nah ...too far fetched to even think about isn't it???
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
		
Click to expand...

Or reverse the scenario and it’s George??


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## Reemul (Dec 10, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Imagine if you can...
Last minute of qualifying on Saturday.
Max has stuck it on provisional pole and Lewis is going for the big one.
Suddenly, one of the Alpha Tauris has a bit of a wobble on coming into sector three and the yellows are waved, thereby cocking up his attempt at pole position.
Nah ...too far fetched to even think about isn't it???
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
		
Click to expand...

Blimey, all these conspiracy theories work for all drivers, Valteri takes out Max, anyone takes out Max or Lewis and so on. Imagine Lewis on the last corner, clips the wall, someone farted in the crowd and put him off.....


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## BiMGuy (Dec 10, 2021)

This will be like most cup finals.

Hype, hype, hype and more hype. Boring event.

If the start is clean, I very much suspect one of them will drive off into the distance, Crofty will do his best to inject some tension by I suspect there won’t be much.

Or it could easily come down to a sticky wheel nut, which would be a poor way to end.

What I do want to see are just 4 world champions doing donuts to see Kimi off, presuming he hasn’t crashed or gone for  a s…


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Tiff Needell knows what he's talking about...






Click to expand...

When he can remember what happened!
Though that's forgiveable given the huge number of events/incidents in the race!


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## Oddsocks (Dec 10, 2021)

I’ve just watched the drivers pre FP interviews, Lewis quite complimented towards max and TB where as max playing the “ I’m treated differently “ card.

I’m bored of Lewis for personal views but at least he’s remaining professional.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2021)

I’m a combination of chuffed and incredibly envious of my brother in law this weekend.

He’s on an all expenses paid trip with his boss and select colleagues / key clients to the race. Flew out last night business class to Dubai with emirates, and he’s got corporate hospitality tickets to qualifying and the race before flying home.

All of this is a totally new experience for him having been in a job for the previous 25 years where he’s been totally unappreciated. With a nudge from me and the missus he took the plunge and moved, and this is his reward 👍 (well, that and a better paid job that doesn’t treat him like part of the furniture).

On balance, given he’s a big f1 fan, I’m more chuffed than envious. What an experience for any race, let alone one that is teed up to be as iconic as this one 😊


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## DaveR (Dec 10, 2021)

C'mon Max!!


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## 4LEX (Dec 10, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I’m a combination of chuffed and incredibly envious of my brother in law this weekend.

He’s on an all expenses paid trip with his boss and select colleagues / key clients to the race. Flew out last night business class to Dubai with emirates, and he’s got corporate hospitality tickets to qualifying and the race before flying home.

All of this is a totally new experience for him having been in a job for the previous 25 years where he’s been totally unappreciated. With a nudge from me and the missus he took the plunge and moved, and this is his reward 👍 (well, that and a better paid job that doesn’t treat him like part of the furniture).

On balance, given he’s a big f1 fan, I’m more chuffed than envious. What an experience for any race, let alone one that is teed up to be as iconic as this one 😊
		
Click to expand...

Gutted I'm not there, been a few times for the golf and F1 back to back. Such a shame they have messed the calender up to squeeze in the Saudi GP. 

Hope your bro in law has a great time!


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 11, 2021)

Tomorrows race is going to be quite something!


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## Beedee (Dec 11, 2021)

Not a Red Bull fan, but that was a cracking piece of teamwork on the first lap.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 11, 2021)

“ I’m on the front row and at least I can see him “ 😂😂😂😂

I think this will be a race where Lewis looks to obtain his advantage around his ability to go a one stopped and preserve his tyre life.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 11, 2021)

Max flatspotting his medium tyre seems to have made things interesting. Will we ever know if RB wanted to start on the softs?


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## SaintHacker (Dec 11, 2021)

No matter what your opinion of Max is, tha was a hell of a qualifying lap. The differing tyre strategies now is going to make things really interesting tomorrow, especially if there's a safety car or two to chuck into the mix


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## Slime (Dec 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No matter what your opinion of Max is, tha was a hell of a qualifying lap. *The differing tyre strategies now is going to make things really interesting* tomorrow, especially if there's a safety car or two to chuck into the mix
		
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Unfortunately true.
It would be nice to see a race won purely on driver ability rather than pit strategy.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No matter what your opinion of Max is, tha was a hell of a qualifying lap. The differing tyre strategies now is going to make things really interesting tomorrow, especially if there's a safety car or two to chuck into the mix
		
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‘Twas indeed a quality lap, but I rather get the impression that Redbull have gambled on a quali setup and turning everything up to 11, hoping that track position at the start will be enough. 

I can’t see the softs lasting very long if Max has Lewis pushing him. Redbull I feel need a timely safety car.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			‘Twas indeed a quality lap, but I rather get the impression that Redbull have gambled on a quali setup and turning everything up to 11, hoping that track position at the start will be enough.

I can’t see the softs lasting very long if Max has Lewis pushing him.* Redbull I feel need a timely safety car.*

Click to expand...

Conspiracy theory alert - Perez or one of the Alpha Tauri cars to have a strategic crash at a point on the circuit where a safety car is needed?


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## pokerjoke (Dec 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No matter what your opinion of Max is, tha was a hell of a qualifying lap. The differing tyre strategies now is going to make things really interesting tomorrow, especially if there's a safety car or two to chuck into the mix
		
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It was ,he did get a little help though

If you was Lewis would you stay close to Max or stay behind and hope his tyres go off .
If I was Lewis I wouldn’t go near him until the overtake was a guarantee.


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## cliveb (Dec 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Conspiracy theory alert - Perez or one of the Alpha Tauri cars to have a strategic crash at a point on the circuit where a safety car is needed?
		
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I think the precedent set at Singapore in 2008(?) when Piquet was told to deliberately crash so a safety car would help Alonso win has made any such move impossible. The penalties for the team(s) involved would be enormous. Even Red Bull wouldn't pull a stunt like that.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 11, 2021)

cliveb said:



			I think the precedent set at Singapore in 2008(?) when Piquet was told to deliberately crash so a safety car would help Alonso win has made any such move impossible. The penalties for the team(s) involved would be enormous. Even Red Bull wouldn't pull a stunt like that.
		
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Would it not be easy for a team to say to a driver, "If we tell you to conserve your tyres between the 35th and 40th lap you're to slide off at XX corner". Get to Lap 37 and Perez gets the radio call to save his tyres and slides off a couple of laps later. I'm not a diehard F1 fan so don't know all the intricacies to know whether or not that's feasible.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 11, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			If you was Lewis would you stay close to Max or stay behind and hope his tyres go off .
If I was Lewis I wouldn’t go near him until the overtake was a guarantee.
		
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I'm actually quite glad Max is in front, it means he should be out the way for the first few corners. If Lewis can keep him within drs range and with the extra speed of the merc he should be able to the overcut is likely to work well, assuming no one gets a cheap safety car pit stop that is!


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## cliveb (Dec 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would it not be easy for a team to say to a driver, "If we tell you to conserve your tyres between the 35th and 40th lap you're to slide off at XX corner". Get to Lap 37 and Perez gets the radio call to save his tyres and slides off a couple of laps later. I'm not a diehard F1 fan so don't know all the intricacies to know whether or not that's feasible.
		
Click to expand...

Anything is possible, and F1 teams can be very sneaky. Renault only got caught about Singapore because Piquet fell out with them and blew the whistle. But Red Bull cannot risk someone in the team with a grudge from spilling the beans, so they won't dare try anything like that. If anyone decides to do something outrageous, it'll be Mad Max himself.


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## Foxholer (Dec 11, 2021)

Slime said:



			Unfortunately true.
It would be nice to see a race won purely on driver ability rather than *pit strategy*.
		
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All 'part of the overall scheme' to me.
And remember that RB's 'strategy' was forced on them by something MV did during qualifying.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm actually quite glad Max is in front, it means he should be out the way for the first few corners. If Lewis can keep him within drs range and with the extra speed of the merc he should be able to the overcut is likely to work well, assuming no one gets a cheap safety car pit stop that is!
		
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Don’t forget Lando in third who will be starting in the softs too. If Lewis doesn’t nail his start, he could well have a McLaren alongside him going into turn 1, with Perez wanting to put the pressure on too.

Bottas could still have a role in all of this, hopefully he can stay close enough that when Max pits he comes out behind him. You lose quite a lot in the pit lane here don’t you?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 11, 2021)

I think the straight line speed of the red bull, track position and verstappens “robust” defence will mean he gets the job done.

A bit like the US Grand Prix.

Hope I’m wrong! But, actually, as much as I want Hamilton to win, if he doesn’t And verstappen drives fairly, he’ll be a worthy champion. He’s been generally brilliant I think, barely made a mistake. Red bull have done well with strategy too.


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## bobmac (Dec 12, 2021)

I'd like Lewis to win his record 8th championship, then retire.
Trouble is, who would challenge Max next season?
So I don't mind if Max wins so Lewis will still be here next season.


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## Smiffy (Dec 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Trouble is, who would challenge Max next season?
		
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George Russell. And if McClaren keep on going, Norris won't be far away.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I think the straight line speed of the red bull, track position and verstappens “robust” defence will mean he gets the job done.

A bit like the US Grand Prix.

Hope I’m wrong! But, actually, as much as I want Hamilton to win, if he doesn’t And verstappen drives fairly, he’ll be a worthy champion. He’s been generally brilliant I think, *barely made a mistake*. Red bull have done well with strategy too.
		
Click to expand...

Genuinely, how many races have you watched this season? Or do you consider some of the incidents Max has been involved with deliberate so don’t count as mistakes?


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I think the straight line speed of the red bull, track position and verstappens “robust” defence will mean he gets the job done.

A bit like the US Grand Prix.

Hope I’m wrong! But, actually, as much as I want Hamilton to win, if he doesn’t And verstappen drives fairly, he’ll be a worthy champion. He’s been generally brilliant I think, barely made a mistake. Red bull have done well with strategy too.
		
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Mercedes have had the best straight line speed in the second half of the season but Verstappen has countered that through the corners. Verstappen’s robust defence, as you call it, saw him get a 5sec and a 10sec penalty + being told to hand back track position for an illegal manoeuvre all in the last race alone. And he’s acquired 7 points on his racing licence through the season.

I hope today sees a clean race, and whoever wins wins, but a “worthy champion…” bullying cheat more like.


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## Smiffy (Dec 12, 2021)

As long as Lewis stays out of trouble, I reckon it's his.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Genuinely, how many races have you watched this season? Or do you consider some of the incidents Max has been involved with deliberate so don’t count as mistakes?
		
Click to expand...

Er, all of them 😂

I count his mistakes as monza, quali at Jeddah and braking in front of Hamilton last week. 

It’s pretty obvious to me that the other incidents weren’t mistakes, they were intentional (braking in front of Hamilton was too, but I’ve included as a mistake because it was so far beyond acceptable it can’t be considered anything else) but in any case, Verstappen didn’t gain any lasting advantage from them, although I think the punishment should have been more severe.

The biggest error of the season by either driver was made by Hamilton at Baku. Verstappen dropped a huge number of points across Baku and Hungary through no fault of his own. Merc made a big error in Hungary that cost Hamilton again.

I’m a big Hamilton fan, I was fuming with verstappen’s driving at jeddah and interlagos, I think the penalty for braking was lighter than it should have been, I think it should have been a 10 second stop go, but as after the race, 25 seconds.

But none of that really matters to my original point that has triggered your aggressive (or at best, patronising) response because even with my Hamilton blinkers on, I can see that verstappen is a seriously fast driver who would be a worthy world champ. There have been plenty that have won it just because of their machinery, whoever wins today isn’t in that category.

Does he lack class? Does he take aggressive driving too far? Yes and yes. Has he been mostly brilliant this season, yes.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'd like Lewis to win his record 8th championship, then retire.
Trouble is, who would challenge Max next season?
So I don't mind if Max wins so Lewis will still be here next season.
		
Click to expand...

The reg changes normally mean one team comes out at a huge advantage for the first half of the season minimum.

Hopefully they’ll achieve their objective of closer racing, but not sure it will be immediate. 

Would be funny if it was a team that comes from nowhere, eg haas! 😂


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## bobmac (Dec 12, 2021)

I think if Max manages to get round the formation lap without crashing into a wall he's got a chance


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## cliveb (Dec 12, 2021)

Not sure if this belongs here or in the random irritations thread.
We're on holiday in the Canaries and playing golf early pm. No problem, I'll watch the race later on All 4.
Log in to check connectivity and...
"All 4 is not available in your location" 
😭😭🤬🤬


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## bobmac (Dec 12, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Not sure if this belongs here or in the random irritations thread.
We're on holiday in the Canaries and playing golf early pm. No problem, I'll watch the race later on All 4.
Log in to check connectivity and...
"All 4 is not available in your location"
😭😭🤬🤬
		
Click to expand...

Would a VPN help?


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## cliveb (Dec 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Would a VPN help?
		
Click to expand...

Probably, but I've never used one and it's a bit late to try and figure it out now.
Anyone know of a simple free VPN I can install on an Android tablet?

I'm resigned to the inevitability that I'll hear the result before we get home on Wednesday and I can watch it. Any other season and it wouldn't have been so important.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Not sure if this belongs here or in the random irritations thread.
We're on holiday in the Canaries and playing golf early pm. No problem, I'll watch the race later on All 4.
Log in to check connectivity and...
"All 4 is not available in your location"
😭😭🤬🤬
		
Click to expand...

Im sure there are plenty of other options for viewing it 😉


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## cliveb (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Im sure there are plenty of other options for viewing it 😉
		
Click to expand...

The emoticon suggests you know what they are.
Are you keeping them a secret to mess with my head?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

cliveb said:



			The emoticon suggests you know what they are.
Are you keeping them a secret to mess with my head?
		
Click to expand...

Ive DM’d you, Clive 👍


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Er, all of them 😂

I count his mistakes as monza, quali at Jeddah and braking in front of Hamilton last week.

It’s pretty obvious to me that the other incidents weren’t mistakes, they were intentional (braking in front of Hamilton was too, but I’ve included as a mistake because it was so far beyond acceptable it can’t be considered anything else) but in any case, Verstappen didn’t gain any lasting advantage from them, although I think the punishment should have been more severe.

The biggest error of the season by either driver was made by Hamilton at Baku. Verstappen dropped a huge number of points across Baku and Hungary through no fault of his own. Merc made a big error in Hungary that cost Hamilton again.

I’m a big Hamilton fan, I was fuming with verstappen’s driving at jeddah and interlagos, I think the penalty for braking was lighter than it should have been, I think it should have been a 10 second stop go, but as after the race, 25 seconds.

But none of that really matters to my original point that has triggered your aggressive (or at best, patronising) response because even with my Hamilton blinkers on, I can see that verstappen is a seriously fast driver who would be a worthy world champ. There have been plenty that have won it just because of their machinery, whoever wins today isn’t in that category.

Does he lack class? Does he take aggressive driving too far? Yes and yes. Has he been mostly brilliant this season, yes.
		
Click to expand...

It was a genuine question, I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was being aggressive 🤷🏼‍♂️.

I was just trying to understand why people think Max is a deserving winner just for being fast, and ignoring the other stuff? But you answered so probably best to leave it at that 👍🏻


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It was a genuine question, I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was being aggressive 🤷🏼‍♂️.

I was just trying to understand why people think Max is a deserving winner just for being fast, and ignoring the other stuff? But you answered so probably best to leave it at that 👍🏻
		
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Because your reaction was that my opinion was so ridiculous to you that I can’t have watched any of the races. 🙄


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Because your reaction was that my opinion was so ridiculous to you that I can’t have watched any of the races. 🙄
		
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Ok, enjoy the race


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Ok, enjoy the race
		
Click to expand...

🙄


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			🙄
		
Click to expand...

I can argue with you if you want? But it will have to be when I’ve finished cooking dinner.

I asked what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question and you’ve taken it the wrong way, gone full melt and got yourself all wound up. 

Seriously, you’re obviously a proper F1 fan if you’ve watched all the races. So enjoy this one.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I can argue with you if you want? But it will have to be when I’ve finished cooking dinner.

I asked what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question and you’ve taken it the wrong way, gone full melt and got yourself all wound up.

Seriously, you’re obviously a proper F1 fan if you’ve watched all the races. So enjoy this one.
		
Click to expand...

Erm, ok then 😂🤣🤣🤣🤣

Honestly, whatever you say. You’re the boss big man 👍 have a good lunch and enjoy the race. 🤣


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

Conspiracy theory number 2 - Norris is going to be Lewis's new team mate next season. Runs in to the back of Max at the first corner and takes him out as a favour to his future team mate.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 12, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Conspiracy theory number 2 - Norris is going to be Lewis's new team mate next season. Runs in to the back of Max at the first corner and takes him out as a favour to his future team mate.
		
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Except that Russel is going to be Lewis team mate next season...


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Conspiracy theory number 2 - Norris is going to be Lewis's new team mate next season. Runs in to the back of Max at the first corner and takes him out as a favour to his future team mate.
		
Click to expand...

Russell is teammate next season


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Except that Russel is going to be Lewis team mate next season...
		
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Canary_Yellow said:



			Russell is teammate next season
		
Click to expand...

Cheers. He's going to struggle to run in to Verstappen from 17th place.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers. He's going to struggle to run in to Verstappen from 17th place.
		
Click to expand...

Well, he’ll be getting lapped at some stage....


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## Beezerk (Dec 12, 2021)

Cockpit cam, wow 😮


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2021)

Watching…the hype has got to me 😳. And just spotted that I’m in the lead…well my _initials_ are…🥰


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Fair play perez, that was awesome driving. Bottas is useless as a team mate! 😂


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Fair play perez, that was awesome driving. Bottas is useless as a team mate! 😂
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic racing from Perez. Showing the young pretender how wheel to wheel racing is done.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Fantastic racing from Perez. Showing the young pretender how wheel to wheel racing is done.
		
Click to expand...

He really did! Wry smile all over my face, enjoying the drama while also horrified as to what it was doing to lewis!

Ridiculous how far ahead they are of most of the rest of the field.

Also, how good is helmet cam?!


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## Beezerk (Dec 12, 2021)

Wow, what an absolute joke.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Wow, what an absolute joke.
		
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Thats was an absolute disgrace


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2021)

Well that’s not going to be the end of it - all seemed a bit manufactured


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## srixon 1 (Dec 12, 2021)

A farce. Making it up as they go along.  That’s the last F1 race I watch. Absolute joke.


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## GG26 (Dec 12, 2021)

What an absolute farce


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## Jimaroid (Dec 12, 2021)

F1 has been a joke for years. That just confirms it. 😳


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## AmandaJR (Dec 12, 2021)

I'm stunned. First time I've really wanted to watch a F1 race from start to finish - never again. It's a joke of a sport.


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## Beezerk (Dec 12, 2021)

srixon 1 said:



			A farce. Making it up as they go along.  That’s the last F1 race I watch. Absolute joke.
		
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Ditto, worst car won somehow.


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## Captainron (Dec 12, 2021)

So glad Verstappen won!!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2021)

Captainron said:



			So glad Verstappen won!!
		
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Verstappen won, F1 lost.


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## Captainron (Dec 12, 2021)

But F1 remains guff


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

This isn’t over yet!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2021)

Well going to make next year interesting


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## Ross61 (Dec 12, 2021)

Worst ruling decision in any sport EVER.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm stunned. First time I've really wanted to watch a F1 race from start to finish - never again. It's a joke of a sport.
		
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Yes it’s why I stopped watching, DRS and engine rules have ruined it . The brutal honesty is the same guy and team winning frequently doesn’t make it a sport. 
They will argue this race to death .. didn’t like Toto’s radio messages and the race controls was in a horrible position.. did they want to have a wet firework finish behind the safety cars? I think Mercedes’ missed a pit stop and that opened opportunities.. Perez did a good job at holding Hamilton up, but the Mercedes is the fastest car.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

Captainron said:



			So glad Verstappen won!!
		
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He didn't win it. He had it given to him by a ridiculous decision.


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## BrianM (Dec 12, 2021)

Not a big F1 fan, but on my limited knowledge that can’t be right.


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## paddyc (Dec 12, 2021)

How Max has managed  to win that I don't know but he should  never complain  about the stewards and luck ever again!


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## paddyc (Dec 12, 2021)

Big respect to Lewis for his reaction and acceptance  of that. I'd don't think I would be so calm


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

paddyc said:



			How Max has managed  to win that I don't know but he should  never complain  about the stewards and luck ever again!
		
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Not being punished appropriately for his appalling driving last week.

The FIA gifting it to him today, Hamilton was a sitting duck. 

I’ve lost a lot of respect for the integrity of F1 here. Just giving fans what they want rather than doing what is right.

What a shame.

Not verstappen’s fault, a worthy winner of the championship, but joke circumstances.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

paddyc said:



			Big respect to Lewis for his reaction and acceptance  of that. I'd don't think I would be so calm
		
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Yes, goes to show that he’s telling the truth when he says all he worried about is what is within his control, which this most certainly was not.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

That is probably the worst instance of officiating I have ever seen. Incredible!


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## paddyc (Dec 12, 2021)

Christian  Horner is a complete knob!


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

I wonder how many world titles Michael Masi will win? Got to be in with a shout of 8 or more!


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 12, 2021)

Well the FIA got what they wanted. Everything they have done in relation to this year is to ensure the Merc and LH didn't win.
In that they succeeded, but don't they look stupid.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

So, the officials say lapped cars will NOT be let through before restart. I could understand that, as there didn't seem to be time to do so. So it was either that, or not restart race.

Then Red Bull whinge yet again, and FIA change their mind. However, they ONLY let the lapped cars between Lewis and Max go. Not any behind Max. How does that work? 

It seems clear the FIA manufactured it simply to get Max directly behind Lewis, and Lewis was a sitting duck due to the tyres.

A truly horrific end to the season. Fair play to Lewis and his reaction, but the officials in F1 have been an absolute disaster.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, the officials say lapped cars will NOT be let through before restart. I could understand that, as there didn't seem to be time to do so. So it was either that, or not restart race.

Then Red Bull whinge yet again, and FIA change their mind. However, they ONLY let the lapped cars between Lewis and Max go. Not any behind Max. How does that work?

It seems clear the FIA manufactured it simply to get Max directly behind Lewis, and Lewis was a sitting duck due to the tyres.

A truly horrific end to the season. Fair play to Lewis and his reaction, but the officials in F1 have been an absolute disaster.
		
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Exactly how I see it


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## bobmac (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			A truly horrific end to the season. Fair play to Lewis and his reaction, but the officials in F1 have been an absolute disaster.
		
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No, just one official


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## Neilds (Dec 12, 2021)

Would it have made any difference if all lapped cars were let through - as per usual rules? Just letting a few through was strange


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## Ser Shankalot (Dec 12, 2021)

Lewis‘s gentlemanly reaction in the face of complete officiating BS, has increased my respect immensely.
Him, Rory and Emma Radacanu this year have shown what outstanding role models elite sportspeople can be.


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## bobmac (Dec 12, 2021)

The good news is the team got what they deserved, the constructors championship and Lewis will be back next season


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## SaintHacker (Dec 12, 2021)

So the written rule states 'all lapped cars will be required to pass the safety car'. So the FIA have broken their own rules. Joke.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Would it have made any difference if all lapped cars were let through - as per usual rules? Just letting a few through was strange
		
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Yes, because the safety car would have stayed out for another lap


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2021)




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## BrianM (Dec 12, 2021)

If procedures aren’t followed then someone has to be held accountable.
If i didn’t follow procedures at my job I’d get sacked!!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So the written rule states 'all lapped cars will be required to pass the safety car'. So the FIA have broken their own rules. Joke.
		
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The other sick thing with that decision is that the officials were happy to place Max directly behind Lewis. However, they didn't allow Sainz to get directly behind Max. I think there were 2 lapped cars between 2nd and 3rd. So, Max didn't have to worry about what was going on behind him, but Lewis wasn't afforded that luxury.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2021)

Wow, what an end.  Masi should go because he’s now a distraction and part of the show, and he absolute should not be. But none of the teams have any trust in him. 
I think this will be the end of it, it hasn’t cost any money, just leaves a bitter taste.
Red bull are very easy to dislike and it’s ultimately been them complaining that engineered the situation.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Mercedes protesting!


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## SaintHacker (Dec 12, 2021)

So Mercedes have lodged 2 protests. From what they've just said on tv the decision breaks 2 regulations. I can't see them changing the result but will be interesting to see if Masi will still ve in a job next season


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So Mercedes have lodged 2 protests. From what they've just said on tv the decision breaks 2 regulations. I can't see them changing the result but will be interesting to see if Masi will still ve in a job next season
		
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I think this will be the compromise. MV keeps drivers, Mercedes get constructors anyway, and Masi goes. 
It was an appalling application of the rules, although Mercedes’ aren’t blameless. Surely they should have pitted Lewis then had the tyre?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Would you all have been satisfied with it finishing under a safety car? 
That last lap was exciting.. and shows tyres are so important 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Surely they should have pitted Lewis then had the tyre?
		
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Their reasoning at the time was they would have lost track position. Plus, if they had would the same actions and choices have been made by the FIA/Masi?.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			It was an appalling application of the rules, although Mercedes’ aren’t blameless. Surely they should have pitted Lewis then had the tyre?
		
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But then Verstappen could've stayed out and taken the lead. The race could then have finished under the safety car and Hamilton wouldn't have had any chance to overtake.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Would you all have been satisfied with it finishing under a safety car?
That last lap was exciting.. and shows tyres are so important 🤣🤣🤣🤣
		
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If it is about making it exciting, we can apply the same logic in golf. If Dechambeau has a 10 shot lead going down the last, reduce it to one shot and take away any club he has longer than a 7 iron. 

But yes, tyres are hugely important


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			I think this will be the compromise. MV keeps drivers, Mercedes get constructors anyway, and Masi goes.
It was an appalling application of the rules, although Mercedes’ aren’t blameless. Surely they should have pitted Lewis then had the tyre?
		
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No chance they could have pitted Lewis. That would have put him behind Max (as Max would not have pitted), and there was a pretty high chance race would not have been restarted.

Max simply had to do the opposite of Lewis, there was no risk on his part. Only way they could restart race was by not applying their own regulations, and only allowing lapped cars between the top 2 through.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Would you all have been satisfied with it finishing under a safety car?
That last lap was exciting.. and shows tyres are so important 🤣🤣🤣🤣
		
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Yes. Whilst a slightly dull finish to the race. It was pretty much a dull finish anyway. 
 Redbull and Max fans didn’t seem to be too fussed about the race at Spa finishing behind a safety car.


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## pokerjoke (Dec 12, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			F1 has been a joke for years. That just confirms it. 😳
		
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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Got sucked into F1 a bit this year and it's certainly a spectacle but it's closer to WWE than proper sport. Must be so frustrating for actual F1 fans.
		
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It’s the American approach to sport, unfortunately. The spectacle is more important than sporting integrity.

As I said pre-race, Verstappen a worthy champ and what happened today was nothing to do with him. But it really is tough to swallow from a sporting perspective. It just doesn’t feel right!


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Got sucked into F1 a bit this year and it's certainly a spectacle but it's closer to WWE than proper sport. Must be so frustrating for actual F1 fans.
		
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This is like getting to the last match of the Ryder Cup and giving Matt Fitz a 2’ putt to win the event.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

The second protest is interesting, as Max looks to have pushed his nose ahead of Lewis behind safety car. No overtaking allowed, so could be a time penalty


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## Slime (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The second protest is interesting, as Max looks to have pushed his nose ahead of Lewis behind safety car. No overtaking allowed, so could be a time penalty
		
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.................... or maybe he got alongside and Lewis dabbed his brakes or decelerated to make sure Max's nose got ahead?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Slime said:



			.................... or maybe he got alongside and Lewis dabbed his brakes or decelerated to make sure Max's nose got ahead?
		
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Is that not allowed?

It’s the job of the cars behind to follow the leader at the point, who is effectively in the role of the safety car.

Wouldn’t be happy with the race result being overturned on that basis, unless there is a precedent for it in the past. 

However, based on the regs, it seems a slam dunk that the race should never have restarted!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Slime said:



			.................... or maybe he got alongside and Lewis dabbed his brakes or decelerated to make sure Max's nose got ahead?
		
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Lewis is allowed to control from the front. There was no need for Max to put himself in that position. He puts himself at huge risk, as the lead car will always go slow until they determine the time to go for it.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Is that not allowed?

It’s the job of the cars behind to follow the leader at the point, who is effectively in the role of the safety car.

Wouldn’t be happy with the race result being overturned on that basis, unless there is a precedent for it in the past.

However, based on the regs, it seems a slam dunk that the race should never have restarted!
		
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100% not allowed. Schumacher was penalised for a similarly small infraction back in the day. So there is precedent.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

According to what I watched they said that "Once all lapped cars have overtaken the safety car the safety car will come in at the end of the following lap". There was no "following lap" between the cars unlapping themselves and the safety car coming in.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			100% not allowed. Schumacher was penalised for a similarly small infraction back in the day. So there is precedent.
		
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Oh good! Looks pretty clear that he has gone ahead.


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## bobmac (Dec 12, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			According to what I watched they said that "Once all lapped cars have overtaken the safety car the safety car will come in at the end of the following lap". There was no "following lap" between the cars unlapping themselves and the safety car coming in.
		
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Don't forget 3 lapped cars were not told to overtake the safety car


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Absolutely crazy season ended like this, it was almost inevitable. I bet so many expected the stewards would win the championship. Most perhaps thought it would be by not acting correctly due to a ridiculous move my Max. But, to be fair to Max, championship decided by the officials self imploding.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

Jake Humphrey on Twitter thinks that the result might be overturned due to correct protocols not being followed. Certainly an entertaining few hours ahead.


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## andycap (Dec 12, 2021)

terrible decisions by FIA , If Mercedes protest stands up and Max  did pass Lewis while behind safety car , that is a clear penalty . 
  Best outcome , Max gets time penalty , Lewis wins race and championship , Max wins in the future when he has the temperement and maturity to be worthy of it , 
I am a big fan of Lewis and Mercedes , but i like to see good ,no quarter given racing with the best driver on the day winning , Max is not ready or worthy yet .The let me pass or we both crash approach is not race craft .


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Absolutely crazy season ended like this, it was almost inevitable. I bet so many expected the stewards would win the championship. Most perhaps thought it would be by not acting correctly due to a ridiculous move my Max. But, to be fair to Max, championship decided by the officials self imploding.
		
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It’s such a joke - Michael Masi has messed this up so badly. It’s only being decided in the stewards room because of him, it’s pretty clear that had he followed the appropriate protocol, Hamilton would have won the race.

I don’t want the race result overturned because of the safety car infringement, i wanted the FIA to strap on a pair of balls and apply their own rules. 

What’s the point in the rules if they’re not going to be followed?!


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## Beedee (Dec 12, 2021)




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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			It’s such a joke - Michael Masi has messed this up so badly. It’s only being decided in the stewards room because of him, it’s pretty clear that had he followed the appropriate protocol, Hamilton would have won the race.

I don’t want the race result overturned because of the safety car infringement, i wanted the FIA to strap on a pair of balls and apply their own rules.

What’s the point in the rules if they’re not going to be followed?!
		
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Exactly. Had he just allowed the race to restart without lapped cars getting past, no one would have argued. Red Bull would have moaned as they always do, but the argument to them was simple. Either we end behind a safety car as there is no time to get lapped cars past, or we go racing with lapped cars in position.

Instead, he completely buckled under Red Bull's moaning, and they effectively manipulated him into gifting Max the title. 

No idea why teams are even allowed to talk to the FIA during race to be honest


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 12, 2021)

Do not understand F1 rules like some on here. Only been watching bits and I saw Hamilton ahead by around 15 seconds and some guy crashed.

They then go round for a few laps and Verstappen catches up and there is a 1 lap race. ELI5 please you  initiated guys please. Now there are claims.. Help please!,


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## 2blue (Dec 12, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Got sucked into F1 a bit this year and it's certainly a spectacle but it's closer to WWE than proper sport. Must be so frustrating for actual F1 fans.
		
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Canary_Yellow said:



			It’s the American approach to sport, unfortunately. The spectacle is more important than sporting integrity.

As I said pre-race, Verstappen a worthy champ and what happened today was nothing to do with him. But it really is tough to swallow from a sporting perspective. It just doesn’t feel right!
		
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Was nothing more than than "Wacky Races" today.......  though a very impressive interview from Hamilton only moments after they'd subjected him to a 'comedy-cars' end of race. He showed real class whilst the winner was sat sobbing.


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## HampshireHog (Dec 12, 2021)

Could there be anything more F1 than for the championship to be decided on a technicality.

Regardless of who eventually wins it there will always be an asterisk against the win, which is a shame as either would have been a worthy winner had it been decided without incident.


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Do not understand F1 rules like some on here. Only been watching bits and I saw Hamilton ahead by around 15 seconds and some guy crashed.

They then go round for a few laps and Verstappen catches up and there is a 1 lap race. ELI5 please you  initiated guys please. Now there are claims.. Help please!,
		
Click to expand...


as far as I understand it, its a bit like the IPL when they conveniently end up with a super over and the previous 40 overs are irrelevant


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			Could there be anything more F1 than for the championship to be decided on a technicality.

Regardless of who eventually wins it there will always be an asterisk against the win, which is a shame as either would have been a worthy winner had it been decided without incident.
		
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I agree it’s unfair on both drivers in either scenario, but there’s one outcome within the rules, and one that is not as far as I’m concerned.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

fundy said:



			as far as I understand it, its a bit like the IPL when they conveniently end up with a super over and the previous 40 overs are irrelevant 

Click to expand...

Yes, but with one team not allowed to use a bat.


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## Beezerk (Dec 12, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			Could there be anything more F1 than for the championship to be decided on a technicality.

Regardless of who eventually wins it there will always be an asterisk against the win, which is a shame as either would have been a worthy winner had it been decided without incident.
		
Click to expand...

Let's be absolutely honest here, the title was stolen from Lewis by the idiots who run F1. Wrong guy was victorious today imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470039368467427328


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## theoneandonly (Dec 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470039368467427328

Click to expand...

I'd say hold your horses. Masi broke the FIA regs in order to manufacture an exciting end.


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## DaveR (Dec 12, 2021)

😁


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I'd say hold your horses. Masi broke the FIA regs in order to manufacture an exciting end.
		
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This is a long way from being done. Whatever the decision with the stewards tonight. There will be an appeal by the team on the losing side. 

Shame really after a good race and great season.


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## Wilson (Dec 12, 2021)

If they allow the result to stand, F1 will have lost all sporting integrity, and should appear on the drama channel, not the sports ones.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2021)

There’s so much that’s wrong with F1 that went on in that race. Why was Horner able to say “ we just want one lap to race” To the race director. 
I had to turn it off as I was seething.
How comes Max never had anyone behind him trying to overtake.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

They've rejected the protest about overtaking during a safety car period. Even though they have admitted that Verstappen did overtake during the safety car "Although (VER) did, for a very short period of time, move slightly in front of (HAM), when both were accelerating and braking, moved back behind and not in front when safety car period ended".

So you can overtake behind a safety car as long as it's not for long and you get back behind the car in front before the end of the safety car.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2021)

Wilson said:



			If they allow the result to stand, F1 will have lost all sporting integrity, and should appear on the drama channel, not the sports ones.
		
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I would of thought comedy channel.👍


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

Decision made?


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## Slime (Dec 12, 2021)

Wasn't it a better sport when the drivers drove cars rather than computers?


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## Reemul (Dec 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s so much that’s wrong with F1 that went on in that race. Why was Horner able to say “ we just want one lap to race” To the race director.
I had to turn it off as I was seething.
How comes Max never had anyone behind him trying to overtake.
		
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Yep, like why was Wolffe able to say to Masi, please don't give us a yellow flag because Max has changed his tyres under a VSC. Both sides are guilty of this all season long and it is wrong to make it seem it was just one sided it was not.

You reap what you sow and both have, Masi is guilty of trying to keep both teams happy all season.

As usual it's all rose tinted glasses from both sides.

Personally they could have moved those 5 forward a little sooner and allowed Merc and Redbull to know what was going to happen.

You cannot blame Lewis or Max for Masi's decision and vice versa if it was the other way round. I think Lewis should have won but letting them race as Redbull took the chances in the lead up is also fine. Crap happens.


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			They've rejected the protest about overtaking during a safety car period. Even though they have admitted that Verstappen did overtake during the safety car "Although (VER) did, for a very short period of time, move slightly in front of (HAM), when both were accelerating and braking, moved back behind and not in front when safety car period ended".

So you can overtake behind a safety car as long as it's not for long and you get back behind the car in front before the end of the safety car.
		
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Seems quite reasonable - as the 'offending' driver has no control over the 'offended' one.


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2021)

Michael masi’s next job


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Yep, like why was Wolffe able to say to Masi, please don't give us a yellow flag because Max has changed his tyres under a VSC. Both sides are guilty of this all season long and it is wrong to make it seem it was just one sided it was not.

You reap what you sow and both have, Masi is guilty of trying to keep both teams happy all season.

As usual it's all rose tinted glasses from both sides.

Personally they could have moved those 5 forward a little sooner and allowed Merc and Redbull to know what was going to happen.

You cannot blame Lewis or Max for Masi's decision and vice versa if it was the other way round. I think Lewis should have won but letting them race as Redbull took the chances in the lead up is also fine. Crap happens.
		
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Mercedes were at a disadvantage at the end because of tyre changing indecision… in a way they lost it strategically. 
Your right both teams tried to put undue pressure on the race control.
Max still had to overtake Lewis .. it wasn’t handed to him on a plate.
The other thing which is disgraceful is both drivers were trying to influence decisions… Hamilton accusing Perez of dangerous driving being one, and Max commenting about an impending safety car


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



*Mercedes were at a disadvantage at the end because of tyre changing indecision… in a way they lost it strategically.*
Your right both teams tried to put undue pressure on the race control.
Max still had to overtake Lewis .. it wasn’t handed to him on a plate.
The other thing which is disgraceful is both drivers were trying to influence decisions… Hamilton accusing Perez of dangerous driving being one, and Max commenting about an impending safety car
		
Click to expand...

How is that a serious comment. If Lewis comes in for tyres does he automatically come out in the lead. No he gives the lead to Max. Max comes in for fresh “ soft” tyres and all drivers made to be out of the way so he is right behind Lewis. Where does indecision come into play.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2021)

Max is champion


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

Max Verstappen - F1 Drivers Champion 2021 *


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I'd say hold your horses. Masi broke the FIA regs in order to manufacture an exciting end.
		
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Looks like it’s done and dusted now


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Mercedes were at a disadvantage at the end because of tyre changing indecision… in a way they lost it strategically.
Your right both teams tried to put undue pressure on the race control.
Max still had to overtake Lewis .. it wasn’t handed to him on a plate.
The other thing which is disgraceful is both drivers were trying to influence decisions… Hamilton accusing Perez of dangerous driving being one, and Max commenting about an impending safety car
		
Click to expand...

Your first paragraph makes zero sense. Do you think Max would have pitted if Lewis had? It was touch and go whether the race would end behind safety car. Had Lewis pitted, it would have been the worst strategic call in the history of F1 potentially


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## AmandaJR (Dec 12, 2021)

If (it's a big if) Max has any class this will feel a pretty hollow victory.

I always thought F1 was corrupt when that creepy old guy with young women on his arm was in charge - seems nothing's changed!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Max is champion
		
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Yeah. Mercedes appeals rejected, the FIA confirming the race director was able to do whatever he liked, and therefore fixed it so we could have one lap with a guaranteed overtake.

I hope he sleeps well.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



If (it's a big if) Max has any class this will feel a pretty hollow victory.

I always thought F1 was corrupt when that creepy old guy with young women on his arm was in charge - seems nothing's changed!
		
Click to expand...

Now it's a big "If".



Why is 26 the biggest font size you can select?


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## Slime (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah. Mercedes appeals rejected, the FIA confirming the race director was able to do whatever he liked, and therefore fixed it so we could have one lap with a guaranteed overtake.
*
I hope he sleeps well.*

Click to expand...

I'm sure he will.  

Oh, I wonder whether Red Bull had a barrister on tap, just in case Lewis had won?


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## Captainron (Dec 12, 2021)

Trophy reads

“2021 - Max Verstappen”

That is all that matters


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Trophy reads

“2021 - Max Verstappen”

That is all that matters
		
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He's going to need a lot of polish to keep that trophy shiny because it's certainly tarnished by how it was won.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Trophy reads

“2021 - Max Verstappen”

That is all that matters
		
Click to expand...

He’s a worthy winner.

I’ve lost respect for the FIA and the way they’ve decided to run the competition though.


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## Captainron (Dec 12, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			He's going to need a lot of polish to keep that trophy shiny because it's certainly tarnished by how it was won.
		
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Sure he can pay someone to keep it all shiny for him. But it is his and he earned it.


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## adam6177 (Dec 12, 2021)

So glad Lewis lost. 👍


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## Jason.H (Dec 12, 2021)

It’s ironic that a car (team) that Toto and Susie are quite involved with caused the safety car that led to this result. To be fair both Lewis and Max are the best by miles. Mercedes were negative today not changing tyres under 2 safety car periods. That left Lewis exposed at the last lap.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Your first paragraph makes zero sense. Do you think Max would have pitted if Lewis had? It was touch and go whether the race would end behind safety car. Had Lewis pitted, it would have been the worst strategic call in the history of F1 potentially
		
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It does make sense Max just did what Lewis didn’t and that was the strategy.. so if they had done the changes in the 2 safety cars they could have been in better shape .. think about it instead of just whining on like a broken record.
Besides next year will be interesting when Russell challenges ..


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## Reemul (Dec 12, 2021)

The Appeal report also states all teams agreed that Masi should do his utmost to finish under green rules, so he did, I think the 2 leading teams only meant that if meant they won, if they weren't going to they wouldn't be happy.

Moving on, no communication between teams and the race director or stewards and limited discussions with the drivers should be brought in


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Jason.H said:



			It’s ironic that a car (team) that Toto and Susie are quite involved with caused the safety car that led to this result. To be fair both Lewis and Max are the best by miles. Mercedes were negative today not changing tyres under 2 safety car periods. That left Lewis exposed at the last lap.
		
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What difference would changing tyres have made? They would have given up track position and lost anyway.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			How is that a serious comment. If Lewis comes in for tyres does he automatically come out in the lead. No he gives the lead to Max. Max comes in for fresh “ soft” tyres and all drivers made be out of the way so he is right behind Lewis. Where does indecision come into play.
		
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See post 896 …


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## DaveR (Dec 12, 2021)

F1 has a history of contentious ìncidents and Hamilton has benefitted from them in the past. Now he has to suck it up.

Congratulations Max 👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2021)

Will see what flags will be flying at Tilbrook tomorrow when I drive past 😁


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			It does make sense Max just did what Lewis didn’t and that was the strategy.. so if they had done the changes in the 2 safety cars they could have been in better shape .. think about it instead of just whining on like a broken record.
Besides next year will be interesting when Russell challenges ..
		
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As if any team is going to give up track position as their first choice strategy in Abu Dhabi….. that’s daft.

Red bulls decision making was hardly inspired, it was simply do the opposite of Lewis as they have nothing to lose.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Mercedes launch second appeal


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Mercedes launch second appeal
		
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I think they are wasting their time.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			As if any team is going to give up track position as their first choice strategy in Abu Dhabi….. that’s daft.

Red bulls decision making was hardly inspired, it was simply do the opposite of Lewis as they have nothing to lose.
		
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Correct the final decision was made for Mercedes, they did not make any effort to change their predicament. They could have pitted in that sc period - would have lost track position but he just had to be in contention with Verstappen. 
The previous stopping opportunity they should have made it, they had an advantage and could have had some chance to defend. However Lewis was a lame duck, worn tyres don’t warm up and pressures would have been low … car would have been a pig. Lewis was asked and he gave the team a vague direction, he then complained when it was looking tight.. he did a good job by keeping a good lap time but even he said I cannot keep this pace up. Mercedes could have lost the lead or the time gap if he had pitted but they chose to stay and hang on.


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 12, 2021)

I have invested quite a bit of time and no little emotion (isn't that what sport is about?) in this F1 season and to see it end like that is just wrong. 

If Max or Lewis had won on the track it would have been conclusive, even if it had been Max pushing Hamilton off the track the outcome would have been down to what happened on the track.

What Massi did there, making up rules as he went along, leaves me feeling shafted. All that time invested in these events only for the race director to be the most significant factor is just plain wrong.

I'm sure that he did it with the best of intentions, wanting a racing finish instead of a safety car finish, but he could have had that if he had brought the safety car in without unlapping those cars, thus allowing Verstapen to race through them, catch Lewis and pass him, imagine the crowning glory of that. Instead, Max gets a question mark, thanks Massi.

I hope Mercedes pursue their appeal. I hope Massi resigns in shame as a consequence, and I hope Max gets to keep his championship, anything else would just make this whole artificial ending even more artificial.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Correct the final decision was made for Mercedes, they did not make any effort to change their predicament. They could have pitted in that sc period - would have lost track position but he just had to be in contention with Verstappen.
The previous stopping opportunity they should have made it, they had an advantage and could have had some chance to defend. However Lewis was a lame duck, worn tyres don’t warm up and pressures would have been low … car would have been a pig. Lewis was asked and he gave the team a vague direction, he then complained when it was looking tight.. he did a good job by keeping a good lap time but even he said I cannot keep this pace up. Mercedes could have lost the lead or the time gap if he had pitted but they chose to stay and hang on.
		
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You could have just left it at correct. There’s nothing else to say, no team is going to give up track position willingly in Abu Dhabi voluntarily.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2021)

I think give it up now, max has won.  He’s deserved it, as much as Lewis, but it does leave a bitter taste.  
I know they won’t, but I’d like Horner and red bull to show a modicum of humility. 
What a shame for a great season to end like this.  
Suspect Merc drag this on and end up looking like sore losers, be interesting to see what the compromise is in the end. I suspect it might end up being a job loss for Masi.


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## Beedee (Dec 12, 2021)

I wouldn't criticise Merc's strategy.  I was surprised that they didn't pit at the VSC but I think it was the right decision in the end.  All things being equal Hamilton would have won confomtably.  At the SC they would have given up track position and if all procedures had been followed as they usually are, there would have been no racing laps left.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			I think give it up now, max has won.  He’s deserved it, as much as Lewis, but it does leave a bitter taste. 
I know they won’t, but I’d like Horner and red bull to show a modicum of humility.
What a shame for a great season to end like this. 
Suspect Merc drag this on and end up looking like sore losers, be interesting to see what the compromise is in the end. I suspect it might end up being a job loss for Masi.
		
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I agree with everything you say, but can’t see Masi going. He’s just delivering what his bosses are asking for, at the cost of sporting integrity. As far as Liberty are concerned, this has been a massive success and it’s been delivered by Masi.


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			I think give it up now, max has won.  He’s deserved it, as much as Lewis, but it does leave a bitter taste. 
I know they won’t, but I’d like Horner and red bull to show a modicum of humility.
What a shame for a great season to end like this. 
Suspect Merc drag this on and end up looking like sore losers, be interesting to see what the compromise is in the end. I suspect it might end up being a job loss for Masi.
		
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But will Masi be shown the door? To do is an admission he got it wrong AND that Hamilton should have been judged as winner on appeal. I expect nothing to change.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			You could have just left it at correct. There’s nothing else to say, no team is going to give up track position willingly in Abu Dhabi voluntarily.
		
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Nah Abu Dhabi is not a hard place to overtake .. it isn’t Imola, Suzuka, or Monaco .. it’s like all the modern circuits they have clear overtaking points and opportunities. 
Just give it up, Redbull tried everything and then the Mercedes powered Williams caused a safety car. 
From there on out the decision had to be to finish the race racing not behind the safety car .. keeping the back markers in there would have been unfair (or they would have been asked to keep out the way) ..


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Nah Abu Dhabi is not a hard place to overtake .. it isn’t Imola, Suzuka, or Monaco .. it’s like all the modern circuits they have clear overtaking points and opportunities.
Just give it up, Redbull tried everything and then the Mercedes powered Williams caused a safety car.
From there on out the decision had to be to finish the race racing not behind the safety car .. keeping the back markers in there would have been unfair (or they would have been asked to keep out the way) ..
		
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Ah, I see, you’re a troll. Ignore list it is.

I’m all for constructive discussion, but you’re not delivering any on this topic, or any other as far as I can see.


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2021)

Genuine question for those saying or implying F1 is corrupt, which sports do you think arent?


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## theoneandonly (Dec 12, 2021)

fundy said:



			Genuine question for those saying or implying F1 is corrupt, which sports do you think arent?
		
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Are you saying because other sport are corrupt that this is ok? I don't see the relevance of your question.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Nah Abu Dhabi is not a hard place to overtake .. it isn’t Imola, Suzuka, or Monaco .. it’s like all the modern circuits they have clear overtaking points and opportunities.
Just give it up, Redbull tried everything and then the Mercedes powered Williams caused a safety car.
From there on out the decision had to be to finish the race racing not behind the safety car .. keeping the back markers in there would have been unfair (or they would have been asked to keep out the way) ..
		
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Was it fair to Carlos in the Ferrari to keep the lapped car between him and Max?


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## Jason.H (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			What difference would changing tyres have made? They would have given up track position and lost anyway.
		
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If Lewis came in he would of been on new softs and Max would of stayed out  on old tyres. Reverse scenario. Although there’s no saying the race would of finished the same way. The FIA make it up as they go along tbh.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Ah, I see, you’re a troll. Ignore list it is.

I’m all for constructive discussion, but you’re not delivering any on this topic, or any other as far as I can see.[/QUOTE

Bit judgemental there … put me on ignore please , and please don’t even contribute to my threads
		
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## 4LEX (Dec 12, 2021)

What happened today was simply shocking and a disgrace to the sport. Rules went out of the window so the Championship could come down to a one lap shoot out for TV viewers, future sponsorship income and the ego of Masi.

Merc didn't do anything wrong, without the SC they win by miles. Putting new tyres on during the first SC was only an error in hindsight. The second one they had no option but to carry on and trust in the integrity of the officials. Max was done on the start and a poor second best all race. Perez showed more quality holding off Hamilton than Max did all day. The least deserving champion in recent memory. A bad loser and a bad winner. The low point was seeing his wife beating father celebrating even though he had turned his back and vanished for most of the race when it looked like Max wouldn't win. He then emerged with a Champion t-shirt on at the end....what a parasite


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Jason.H said:



			If Lewis came in he would of been on new softs and Max would of stayed out  on old tyres. Reverse scenario. Although there’s no saying the race would of finished the same way. The FIA make it up as they go along tbh.
		
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Given the race should have finished under safety car, or with lapped cars in place, Hamilton would have lost anyway. Merc can’t base their strategy on the assumption that the race director will make up his own rules.

Hamilton couldn’t have really driven any better, I doubt merc would change any strategy decisions, the FIAs determination to inject entertainment / drama has been at the cost of sporting integrity for me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			I think give it up now, max has won.  He’s deserved it, as much as Lewis, but it does leave a bitter taste. 
I know they won’t, *but I’d like Horner and red bull to show a modicum of humility.*
What a shame for a great season to end like this. 
Suspect Merc drag this on and end up looking like sore losers, be interesting to see what the compromise is in the end. I suspect it might end up being a job loss for Masi.
		
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Do you think a lot of that comes back to the Silverstone celebrations ? And there appears an undercurrent of spitefulness between - the whole “crate of Red Bull” to Latifi just childish


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Was it fair to Carlos in the Ferrari to keep the lapped car between him and Max?
		
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Depends what the championship result would be, could it have been influenced? Also did Ferrari raise this with the FIA ?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think a lot of that comes back to the Silverstone celebrations ? And there appears an undercurrent of spitefulness between - the whole “crate of Red Bull” to Latifi just childish
		
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Imagine how they would have behaved had they lost? Verstsppen went off in a huff on the podium last weekend. 

Hamilton was such a class act today, a proper role model on how to behave when facing unimaginable disappointment.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Jason.H said:



			If Lewis came in he would of been on new softs and Max would of stayed out  on old tyres. Reverse scenario. Although there’s no saying the race would of finished the same way. The FIA make it up as they go along tbh.
		
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There was this opportunity, and it would have been out of the box, if Lewis had pitted before he hit the traffic. He had 17 seconds on Max, that would put him 3-4 seconds behind him and having fresh tyres worth 0.8-1sec a lap and a superior engine would have given him the possibility to work the last 7-8 laps or be closed up after the safety car. But Lewis thought his tyres were good and none of his engineers were overtly discussing this.. there comes a time when winning easy makes you indecisive and soft.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Imagine how they would have behaved had they lost? Verstsppen went off in a huff on the podium last weekend.

Hamilton was such a class act today, a proper role model on how to behave when facing unimaginable disappointment.
		
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You would hope and expect Verstappen to learn in the same way Hamilton has over the years


4LEX said:



			What happened today was simply shocking and a disgrace to the sport. Rules went out of the window so the Championship could come down to a one lap shoot out for TV viewers, future sponsorship income and the ego of Masi.

Merc didn't do anything wrong, without the SC they win by miles. Putting new tyres on during the first SC was only an error in hindsight. The second one they had no option but to carry on and trust in the integrity of the officials. Max was done on the start and a poor second best all race. Perez showed more quality holding off Hamilton than Max did all day. *The least deserving champion in recent memory.* A bad loser and a bad winner. The low point was seeing his wife beating father celebrating even though he had turned his back and vanished for most of the race when it looked like Max wouldn't win. He then emerged with a Champion t-shirt on at the end....what a parasite 

Click to expand...

Regardless of all the antics etc Verstappen still won 10 GPS , 18 times on the podium  - that’s pretty impressive when not in the quickest car


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			There was this opportunity, and it would have been out of the box, if Lewis had pitted before he hit the traffic. He had 17 seconds on Max, that would put him 3-4 seconds behind him and having fresh tyres worth 0.8-1sec a lap and a superior engine would have given him the possibility to work the last 7-8 laps or be closed up after the safety car. But Lewis thought his tyres were good and none of his engineers were overtly discussing this.. there comes a time when winning easy makes you indecisive and soft.
		
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Lewis had absolutely no need to pit for new tyres and give up track position. Max wasn’t catching Lewis even with fresher tyres. 

Why would Mercedes risk putting Lewis into a position where he needed to pass Max?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You would hope and expect Verstappen to learn in the same way Hamilton has over the years


Regardless of all the antics etc Verstappen still won 10 GPS , 18 times on the podium  - that’s pretty impressive when not in the quickest car
		
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He was in the quickest car for the majority of the season I think. Merc really hooked it up from Brazil onwards. I agree max is a worthy champ, he had some bad luck earlier in the season, I’ve no beef with him today at all.

I don’t see any sign of Verstappen learning, he’s in his 7th season, he’s hardly a rookie. But perhaps he’ll settle down from now as he basically has nothing to prove. He’s a world champion, he can stop driving like the world is out to get him now. Doubt he will though!


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## Beedee (Dec 12, 2021)

I wonder if things would have worked out differently if Masi hadn't gifted Max the win at Spa.  And let's be honest, that one REALLY was a gift.

I know the points wouldn't have made the difference, but Max being behind in the championship at various times during the year, and not having the safety cushion of taking them both out and still win, might have applied the pressure.

Oh well.  Masi did, and Max made the most of what happened today.  I don't like Max or RB, but I can't criticise Max for what happened today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2021)

Hmmm…just goes to further remind me why I gave up on F1.


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Lewis had absolutely no need to pit for new tyres and give up track position. Max wasn’t catching Lewis even with fresher tyres.

Why would Mercedes risk putting Lewis into a position where he needed to pass Max?
		
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As it turned out....He had 4 (rubber) reasons to.
Each of the Mercedes decisions was valid, but overall - with the SC - it turned out badly for them!


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			As it turned out....He had 4 (rubber) reasons to.
Each of the Mercedes decisions was valid, but overall - with the SC - it turned out badly for them!
		
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But Redbull would still have had the option to pit Max under the SC for fresh softs. Mercedes could not pit Lewis under the SC unless he would have still been behind Max when the SC came out. 

There is no way the car leading give up track position with so few laps remaining.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Lewis had absolutely no need to pit for new tyres and give up track position. Max wasn’t catching Lewis even with fresher tyres.

Why would Mercedes risk putting Lewis into a position where he needed to pass Max?
		
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That’s what they thought as well, and at that time they asked Lewis could he keep 0.8 sec per lap till the end and he said that was a tough ask.. but was prepared, but he could have sealed it with a stop. 
His car was faster and the risk was minimal.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			As it turned out....He had 4 (rubber) reasons to.
Each of the Mercedes decisions was valid, but overall - with the SC - it turned out badly for them!
		
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Mercedes can't make a decision based on the knowledge the race director will make a decision that goes against FIA guidelines and a decision that has never been made before. In the period of time Mercedes had to decide whether or not to pit Lewis, that could well have meant Lewis finished behind Max during the safety car. 

Imagine that had happened, and imagine what Christian Horner would be radioing to race control. Masi is quite possibly the weakest minded individual in the history of motorsport, manipulated into making an absolutely bizarre decision.

I saw the full footage in Mercedes garage from the moment lapped cars were kept through, to conclusion of race. Absolute shock and despair in the garage, Wolff was just gobsmacked. That is not sport. That is a Xmas cliffhanger in Eastenders


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think a lot of that comes back to the Silverstone celebrations ? And there appears an undercurrent of spitefulness between - the whole “crate of Red Bull” to Latifi just childish
		
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Not sure what the reference to crate of
Red bull is, I haven’t seen anything regarding latifi, and if it’s on twatter I don’t have it so won’t see it. 
Regarding your first point, I hope not.  I think that was just a smoke screen and distraction when they knew Max should have been more street smart. 

Red bull has been the faster car for much of the season and they’ve done an incredible job, they deserve a lot of credit. Ultimately Masi is the one who has ballsed this up.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s what they thought as well, and at that time they asked Lewis could he keep 0.8 sec per lap till the end and he said that was a tough ask.. but was prepared, but he could have sealed it with a stop.
His car was faster and the risk was minimal.
		
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Merc didn’t want Lewis to have to go anywhere near max, if Lewis was behind in second after the start the plan would have been to go for the overcut.  It would have been an absolute last resort that Lewis went for a pass on the track, and they didn’t need to risk it.


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			But Redbull would still have had the option to pit Max under the SC for fresh softs. Mercedes could not pit Lewis under the SC unless he would have still been behind Max when the SC came out.

There is no way the car leading give up track position with so few laps remaining.
		
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True enough - as I suggested. But, as I also stated, each decision was logical but it turned out badly for them! Pitting Max would have been illogical/daft - simply throwing away time!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Merc didn’t want Lewis to have to go anywhere near max, if Lewis was behind in second after the start the plan would have been to go for the overcut.  It would have been an absolute last resort that Lewis went for a pass on the track, and they didn’t need to risk it.
		
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Max wouldn’t have benefited by taking Lewis out .. he has been cast as the bad guy, decision would be in Lewis’ favour


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## Piece (Dec 12, 2021)

That was a fantastic F1 season. Either Max or Lewis were a deserving champion. It was Max's day as the SC miracle happened that Horner was praying for. 

Lots of great and controversial moments. Two things I've picked up from this season: 

1. Max has helped to redefine what is acceptable overtaking, whether you agree with it or not.
2. The race control needs overhauling. Too much inconsistency and influenced by teams chirping on the radio. 

It's got be a fair and level playing field for all. This last race showed that it isn't at the moment.

The last few pages have given me a giggle; those who really understand and those that think they understand.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm…just goes to further remind me why I gave up on F1.
		
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Yet you still feel the need to come on a thread about it and comment?🤷‍♂️


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## Cherry13 (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Max wouldn’t have benefited by taking Lewis out .. he has been cast as the bad guy, decision would be in Lewis’ favour
		
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But would you risk that with Masi’ form and past decisions?


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Mercedes can't make a decision based on the knowledge the race director will make a decision that goes against FIA guidelines and a decision that has never been made before. In the period of time Mercedes had to decide whether or not to pit Lewis, that could well have meant Lewis finished behind Max during the safety car.

Imagine that had happened, and imagine what Christian Horner would be radioing to race control. Masi is quite possibly the weakest minded individual in the history of motorsport, manipulated into making an absolutely bizarre decision.

I saw the full footage in Mercedes garage from the moment lapped cars were kept through, to conclusion of race. Absolute shock and despair in the garage, Wolff was just gobsmacked. That is not sport. That is a Xmas cliffhanger in Eastenders
		
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The 'decision/decisions' (by Mercedes) was/were not made with any 'knowledge' of subsequent events, nor of Masi's decisions.
Re-read the post you quoted!!


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Yet you still feel the need to come on a thread about it and comment?🤷‍♂️
		
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Seems, to me, a better 'need' than your apparent one!


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## SaintHacker (Dec 12, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Seems, to me, a better 'need' than your apparent one!
		
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What on earth are you going on about?


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			What on earth are you going on about?
		
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Try engaging your 'grey matter'!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 12, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			The 'decision/decisions' (by Mercedes) was/were not made with any 'knowledge' of subsequent events, nor of Masi's decisions.
Re-read the post you quoted!!
		
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Apologies, I was not replying to you, but mistakenly hit teply on your post. My response was to the comment that Mercedes should have pitted him.made by someone else


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			But would you risk that with Masi’ form and past decisions?
		
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Yeah, I would and I would give Lewis the big up and tell him to show everyone why he is the world champion..! 
Masi is not in contention, the FIA decision is the decision you adhere to it and you have to make the best of it.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2021)

It will be interesting to read comments from neutral countries. Brazil, USA, FRANCE, ETC  over the next few days.


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## BrianM (Dec 12, 2021)

Why did Masi not let them race from the position each driver was in rather than get the back markers to overtake the safety car?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Why did Masi not let them race from the position each driver was in rather than get the back markers to overtake the safety car?
		
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No one really knows 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## BrianM (Dec 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			No one really knows 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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I wasn’t particularly bothered who won but surely everyone can see what happened today wasn’t right, Lewis had no chance on that last lap.


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## 4LEX (Dec 12, 2021)

This should go to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. The FIA are incapable of making a fair decision and have tarnished the entire season.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

4LEX said:



			This should go to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. The FIA are incapable of making a fair decision and have tarnished the entire season.
		
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They will be there next week. The FIA prize gala is on Thursday.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Why did Masi not let them race from the position each driver was in rather than get the back markers to overtake the safety car?
		
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Probably because it had more opportunity to get messy … it was a difficult decision but in the end the logic of it holds up. They could not have the final race won under the  safety car nor could they have back markers interfering in the title decider ..


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## Piece (Dec 12, 2021)

4LEX said:



			This should go to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. The FIA are incapable of making a fair decision and have tarnished the entire season.
		
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Whilst the sentiment is probably fair, going to CAS would be bad for all.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it had more opportunity to get messy … it was a difficult decision but in the end the logic of it holds up. They could not have the final race won under the  safety car nor could they have back markers interfering in the title decider ..
		
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Yet they were able to have an entire race under the SC at Spa? 

It shouldn’t matter what race it was, there should be consistency in the application of the rules.


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## BrianM (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it had more opportunity to get messy … it was a difficult decision but in the end the logic of it holds up. They could not have the final race won under the  safety car nor could they have back markers interfering in the title decider ..
		
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The logic doesn’t hold up though, just do what they normally do and work your way through the back markers as you normally do??


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## DaveR (Dec 12, 2021)

Despite the controversy I think the best driver this season won the championship, assuming the result stands.


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## Piece (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it had more opportunity to get messy … it was a difficult decision but in the end the logic of it holds up. They could not have the final race won under the  safety car nor could they have back markers interfering in the title decider ..
		
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It wasn't a difficult decision. Apply the rules correctly and consistently,  then all back markers (Not just the selected four/five) should have passed the safety car and rejoined the back of the pack. The safety car would then come in on the next lap which would have been the end of the race. Masi chose to have a 'race', similar level of decision to that farce at Spa. Time to tidy up race control before next year.


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## greenone (Dec 12, 2021)

Piece said:



			Whilst the sentiment is probably fair, going to CAS would be bad for all.
		
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I don't think it would be. CAS would rip FIA to shreds and force them to get their house in order. No point in having 500+ pages of regulations and sporting code if someone can rip it all up because they feel like it. This has been brewing all season because of inconsistent application of the rules. Today is probably the last race I watch, what's the point if the rules can be ripped up because Masi feels like it.


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## cliveb (Dec 12, 2021)

The entire season has been a catalogue of bad stewarding and race control decisions. Spa was the tipping point into utter farce. Then as things got more heated between Merc and RB, the decisions got more and more chaotic. My opinion is that this year's championship is effectively void, regardless of who won.

Roll on 2022, and here's hoping for some sensible and consistent application of the technical and sporting regs.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

I did not watch spa.. but experience of spa is the circuit is long and the weather and conditions differ between the sectors. 
It’s usually cold the high points are foggy and drizzly … so if the weather was poor then it’s understandable to keep the safety car out especially when there are points where water pools.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

BrianM said:



			The logic doesn’t hold up though, just do what they normally do and work your way through the back markers as you normally do??
		
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Don’t think they had time to get them all through, they just got rid of the relevant ones.


But let’s get this straight there are a lot of posters on here saying it’s dreadful but not because of any real technical reasons .. just their man did not win. Had it been Lewis I am sure they would be content with the decisions.
I don’t remember in my day the FIA getting so much back chat, you could not even have a joke with them. But then Mosely was in charge and Whiting was fair as he had so much experience on both sides of the fence.


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it had more opportunity to get messy … it was a difficult decision but in the end the logic of it holds up. They could not have the final race won under the  safety car nor could they have back markers interfering in the title decider ..
		
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I can't see that as being any 'more messy' than it was! Admittedly less (if any) 'racing' involved though. It's consistency that's important, and that was decidedly lacking imo.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I can't see that as being any 'more messy' than it was! Admittedly less (if any) 'racing' involved though. It's consistency that's important, and that was decidedly lacking imo.
		
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By messy .. what if a back marker collided with Max, what if they caught up with Lewis and collided with him (Lewis was stuffed the tread gauge was down and he had cold tyres with little opportunity to warm up.. he would have been struggling) .. eiether scenarios would have been Unacceptable.. now we have a situation where a certain fan base says it’s unfair, and another is content with the racing gods .. if you want to find fault it was Mercedes strategy


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## greenone (Dec 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			if you want to find fault it was Mercedes strategy
		
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They messed up not extending the first stint when max pitted. Other than that there's not much else they could do. They were too close to the pit entry for the vsc. For the safety car they would have given up track position. If the regs had been followed the last lap wouldn't have happened and if they had pitted they would have handed the race to verstappen who would have stayed out. I'm not a Hamilton fan, I just like hard clean racing. Imagine how much Horner would have been whinging if the roles were reversed.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			.. if you want to find fault it was Mercedes strategy
		
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Or simply bad luck that Latifi crashed in a wrong part of the circuit at the wrong time of the race!


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			.... what if ..., what if ...
		
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There's always going to be that 'argument'!


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## ExRabbit (Dec 13, 2021)

As a massive fan in the past, I stopped watching around the time overtaking in the pits became the big thing. Early Schumacher era after Damon Hill? So probably around 20 years ago.

As many people have said before on this thread, I too will not be watching again.

Total sh!tshow at the end.

And I'm not even a fan of Lewis, just watching to see if he could make history after his epic comeback this season.


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## bobmac (Dec 13, 2021)

The Mercedes strategists had to assume the rules would be applied correctly, that's what they are there for......

1. Wait till the track is clear, then let ALL lapped cars pass the safety car, then one more lap behind the SC. Race ends. Lewis wins.
2. Wait till the track is clear, then one more lap behind the SC. then Max has one lap to try and pass 5 cars and pass Lewis. Lewis wins.

Pitting Lewis would mean Max has track position with fresh soft tyres. Max wins.

When the crash happened, Lewis was 12.102 seconds in front and 5 lapped cars between him and Max, a winning position they had earned.
As you're not allowed to overtake behind the SC, (apart from today as long as it's just a little bit) the advantage should have been recreated after the safety car ended, albeit with less laps to go. Lewis wins.

It was not.

The lapped cars were removed, the time gap was removed and Lewis was a sitting duck.

The bottom line is if the rules had been followed, Lewis wins.
The race director did not follow the rules. Max wins.


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## Smiffy (Dec 13, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			As a *massive* fan in the past, I stopped watching around the time overtaking in the pits became the big thing. Early Schumacher era after Damon Hill? So probably around 20 years ago.
		
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How can a self proclaimed "massive" fan stop watching altogether for 20 years???
That doesn't make sense...


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I did not watch spa.. but experience of spa is the circuit is long and the weather and conditions differ between the sectors.
It’s usually cold the high points are foggy and drizzly … so if the weather was poor then it’s understandable to keep the safety car out especially when there are points where water pools.
		
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If you did not watch Spa, you probably want to do your research first as to why it was a farce. It was not a simple case of having a race, and having to finish the past few laps behind the safety car.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			How can a self proclaimed "massive" fan stop watching altogether for 20 years???
That doesn't make sense...


Click to expand...

I think the words 'in the past' might be significant!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			If you did not watch Spa, you probably want to do your research first as to why it was a farce. It was not a simple case of having a race, and having to finish the past few laps behind the safety car.
		
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Enlighten me


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			There's always going to be that 'argument'!
		
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Yup , and those are the thoughts they are having.. so they eliminated that possibility.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Or simply bad luck that Latifi crashed in a wrong part of the circuit at the wrong time of the race!
		
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Yes it was unfortunate, but they pitted very early and tried to stretch the race to then end. Which was working, but this is not the first time a driver with heavily worn tyres has struggled with a restart.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2021)

greenone said:



			They messed up not extending the first stint when max pitted. Other than that there's not much else they could do. They were too close to the pit entry for the vsc. For the safety car they would have given up track position. If the regs had been followed the last lap wouldn't have happened and if they had pitted they would have handed the race to verstappen who would have stayed out. I'm not a Hamilton fan, I just like hard clean racing. Imagine how much Horner would have been whinging if the roles were reversed.
		
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Yes Horner would have grumbled, but he was resigned to losing in the last 7-9 laps anyway … and Mercedes messed up their strategy which may have given them a fighting chance at the end. Had Lewis pitted he would not have had the time advantage, he got unlucky with a safety car. How the safety car was deployed and the back markers were dealt with is what it is … there have a been a fair few occasions where a long stint driver has fallen foul of the safety car coming out. That is the risk of the strategy.


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## Smiffy (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I think the words 'in the past' might be significant!
		
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Okay. How does a "massive fan" lose interest altogether???


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Enlighten me
		
Click to expand...

The 44 lap race was actually 2 laps behind a safety car, red flagged in 3rd lap. Basically, the race could not go ahead due to weather. However, drivers were still awarded points for this "race". Incidentally, it also was a race Max won, which contributed to him being ahead of Lewis going into final race of the season on race wins, as he had one more than Lewis.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes Horner would have grumbled, but he was resigned to losing in the last 7-9 laps anyway … and Mercedes messed up their strategy which may have given them a fighting chance at the end. Had Lewis pitted he would not have had the time advantage, he got unlucky with a safety car. How the safety car was deployed and the back markers were dealt with is what it is … there have a been a fair few occasions where a long stint driver has fallen foul of the safety car coming out. That is the risk of the strategy.
		
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Why do you keep blissfully ignoring the fact the race could well have ended behind the safety car? It would have done if normal procedures had been followed. 

If Mercedes HAD pitted Lewis, and then ended up in 2nd position at end of race behind safety car, you are exactly the sort of guy who would come on here and criticise Mercedes for a poor decision. Of course, at least your argument would have credibility in that situation. In this case, you really do not have a leg to stand on.


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## BrianM (Dec 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Don’t think they had time to get them all through, they just got rid of the relevant ones.


But let’s get this straight there are a lot of posters on here saying it’s dreadful but not because of any real technical reasons .. just their man did not win. Had it been Lewis I am sure they would be content with the decisions.
I don’t remember in my day the FIA getting so much back chat, you could not even have a joke with them. But then Mosely was in charge and Whiting was fair as he had so much experience on both sides of the fence.
		
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You're wrong, I've limited knowledge on F1 but what happened wasn't right, either let them all through or none.
You shouldn't be able to dissect a procedure when it suits, it should be followed correctly.
If Masi is just picking and choosing himself what to do what's the point in the procedure.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2021)

Two races this season had horrible, contrived results. Spa and yesterday’s race. Who benefited from very poor decisions? Verstappen is world champion, but only by virtue of two very poor decisions.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 13, 2021)

Having had a chan e to sleep on it, these are my thoughts on the whole thing. Even though I am a Brit/Lewis supporter the result should stand. Max is a worthy champion this year and should remain so.
Stewardship needs changing, it needs permanent stewards ,not different ones every race.
Team principals should not be able to talk to, and thereby try to influence the race director. Perhaps bring in an intermediary steward, bit like a 4th official in football, who can pass on any legitimate concerns to the director.
Michael Masi needs to resign/be sacked.
Roll on 2022.


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## Neilds (Dec 13, 2021)

I think that Lewis actually lost the championship a few races ago (Baku?) when he went straight on at the restart after Max had a puncture and they restarted with a few laps to go. Lewis had the wrong brake setting selected and didn’t make the first corner. Gave away free point imo


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I think that Lewis actually lost the championship a few races ago (Baku?) when he went straight on at the restart after Max had a puncture and they restarted with a few laps to go. Lewis had the wrong brake setting selected and didn’t make the first corner. Gave away free point imo
		
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Interesting. So Lewis lost the championship because he didn't have a flawless season. Did Max make any errors this season!? Or, is it only Lewis that must have a flawless season to be a worthy world champion?


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Okay. How does a "massive fan" lose interest altogether???
		
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I'm not the one to ask!
Though I'd suggest disillusionment about some aspect of the 'sport' might do it.


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## Neilds (Dec 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting. So Lewis lost the championship because he didn't have a flawless season. Did Max make any errors this season!? Or, is it only Lewis that must have a flawless season to be a worthy world champion?
		
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I didn't say he needed to have a flawless season, just that he made an unforced error and missed an open goal - to quote other sports!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I didn't say he needed to have a flawless season, just that he made an unforced error and missed an open goal - to quote other sports!
		
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That is fair enough, but I don't think it is valid to go back through the season to pick out mistakes where the title was lost. Otherwise we could go round and round in circles identifying mistakes made by both drivers. Maybe if the mistake was made in the final race, where the stakes were fully known, more emphasis could be made. It is a little like a football team missing out on the league by a point, and saying the defining moment was during game week 10 when a striker missed an open goal at end of game. Ultimately, it isn't really a defining moment. 

One might argue any early mistakes made by Hamilton gave himself a kick up the backside, and actually lead to his brilliant driving at the end of the season. So, early mistakes could oddly have helped him in the end, but who knows how that impacted him mentally.

What happened yesterday and in Spa was out of either drivers control, simply an absolute farce created my the FIA. I have been extremely critical of Max's driving style. But, as we've got to end of the season, I'm diluting my criticism against him. The key problem has been the FIA and their handling of various incidents, coupled by the fact Horner seems to have great control over Masi's decision making. How can Max refine his driving style when Horner tells him he can do no wrong, and the FIA fall in line with Red Bull.

I've watched F1 for years, but this has been a truly shocking season. But, for the first time, for reasons related to the FIA. 

I do hope Mercedes push this all the way. If roles were reversed, there is no doubt Red Bull would do the same. Fair play to Lewis, who was gracious in this unjust defeat, and he should stay out of it and let Mercedes deal with it. To be fair, Lewis has been very reserved and focused at the back end of this season when decisions have gone against them.


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## AliMc (Dec 13, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Okay. How does a "massive fan" lose interest altogether???
		
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Don't see how that's an issue tbh, I used to go every game home and away to follow my team in Scottish football but genuinely wouldn't go to the end of my street to watch any game now, just not interested anymore, it happens


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## Slime (Dec 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			It wasn't a difficult decision. *Apply the rules correctly and consistently*,  then all back markers (Not just the selected four) should have passed the safety car and rejoined the back of the pack. The safety car would then come in on the next lap which would have been the end of the race. Masi chose to have a 'race', similar level of decision to that farce at Spa. Time to tidy up race control before next year.
		
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Then shouldn't Hamilton have conceded his lead when he cut out the corner at the beginning of the race?
He really did miss out a lot of the circuit.


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## JamesR (Dec 13, 2021)

Slime said:



			Then shouldn't Hamilton have conceded his lead when he cut out the corner at the beginning of the race?
He really did miss out a lot of the circuit.
		
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I don't think he needed to give Max the lead, because he was actually in the lead going into the corner. Max basically blocked him off track, and thus forced him to cut the corner.
Perhaps he shouldn't have pulled away so far, and should have come back to those behind him, to show that he wasn't benefitting from the cut corner?


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 13, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			How can a self proclaimed "massive" fan stop watching altogether for 20 years???
That doesn't make sense...


Click to expand...

Because the last 20 years have been utterly dire perhaps? 

I'm very much the same, I never missed a race up until my mid 30s, then along came the one team dominance of Schumacher and now Hamilton, with a period of Red Bull thrown into the middle. There's no overtaking, it's unbelievably boring.

However with Lewis looking like losing this season, I've been tuned into the last 3 races, yesterday while another example of the genre, did at least produce the most exciting finish in 2 decades, and for that we can thank Massi for allowing them to race for that final lap. Edge of the seat stuff, brilliant viewing.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

I've digested yesterday's events overnight, and still feel the same.

I've no objection to Verstappen winning the World Championship, he is a worthy winner. It's certainly no fluke, a la Rosberg, Button and a few others. Over the course of the season, both drivers have been brilliant. Well done Max Verstappen, what happened yesterday was not his fault.

However, it was a farce. What is the role of the race director if not to enforce the rules and ensure sporting integrity? Sometimes, the race director and the stewards are faced with subjective issues and they make decisions that not everyone agrees with, sometimes those decisions are somewhat inconsistent, they're only human after all. Yesterday, though, there was no subjectivity to the rules as everyone understood them, the rule book was torn up and sporting integrity binned at the same time, in the interests of entertainment. That doesn't sit right with me. The race director should be impartial, ensuring that the rules are followed to the letter throughout the entire season, regardless of the circumstances of the race; emotion shouldn't be a factor in that person's decision making.

The sad thing though is that this is all being driven by Liberty's drive for entertainment and drama, which ultimately makes them money. Masi has delivered what they want and that will please them - they won't mind the ongoing furore as there's no such thing as bad publicity as far as they are concerned. They'll keep on running the sport like this as it suits them very nicely indeed.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Having had a chan e to sleep on it, these are my thoughts on the whole thing. Even though I am a Brit/Lewis supporter the result should stand. Max is a worthy champion this year and should remain so.
*Stewardship needs changing, it needs permanent stewards ,not different ones every race.
Team principals should not be able to talk to, and thereby try to influence the race director.* Perhaps bring in an intermediary steward, bit like a 4th official in football, who can pass on any legitimate concerns to the director.
Michael Masi needs to resign/be sacked.
Roll on 2022.
		
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Yes to both, there's been some farcical race penalties this year, now a permanent team might not change that, but at least you'd have someone looking race to race with the same set of eyes.

And I think it was Coulthard who said that about the team principals yesterday, absolutely spot on, Mercedes now whinging about a "bad" decision, Massi even said 'get off the radio I'm dealing with a situation'', and now they're whining cos they think he got it wrong. They put the pressure on, then moan when the pressure backfires. Your 4th official analogy is spot on.


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## Wilson (Dec 13, 2021)

Having slept on it, my feeling haven't changed - it's now drama, not Sport. I'm not a massive fan of either driver, but Hamilton was robbed yesterday, he was cruising to a win, so to engineer the last lap shootout like they did, especially when the rules are clear, is disgraceful.

I'd got back into F1 this year, but not for me anymore, thanks.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59631665

This is a very good read indeed. It may enlighten one or two. Bottom line it sums up yesterdays farce. For me I cannot see it finishing anytime before it go to court.
personally I am surprised other “ neutral” teams never put in complaints about how the final decisions were made.

Quote from the link
*The questions over the rules*
What followed was unprecedented. 

Race director Michael Masi initially said lapped cars would not be allowed to overtake, which would have left five cars between Hamilton and Verstappen for the one lap of racing that it looked like would be left.

*That's against normal protocol, so Red Bull complained. *

Masi changed his mind and let those five cars overtake - but not the other three. This put Verstappen and Hamilton together but left two lapped cars between third-placed Carlos Sainz's Ferrari and Verstappen and one between Valtteri Bottas' Mercedes and Yuki Tsunoda's Alpha Tauri.

*This is also against normal protocol. So Mercedes complained, to no avail.
🤔*


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Because the last 20 years have been utterly dire perhaps?

I'm very much the same, I never missed a race up until my mid 30s, then along came the one team dominance of Schumacher and now Hamilton, with a period of Red Bull thrown into the middle. There's no overtaking, it's unbelievably boring.

However with Lewis looking like losing this season, I've been tuned into the last 3 races, yesterday while another example of the genre, did at least produce the most exciting finish in 2 decades, and *for that we can thank Massi for allowing them to race for that final lap. Edge of the seat stuff, brilliant viewing*.
		
Click to expand...

There is some truth in this.

Very similar to the year 1992, when Hulk Hogan was being subject to a two on one attack by Sid Justice and Papa Shango. Then, out of nowhere, the Ultimate Warrior's theme tune starts playing in the background, then the Ultimate Warrior comes flying out, looked charged up on steroids, and takes out Sid Justice and Papa Shango. Pure entertainment, and that is what Masi is trying to accomplish in F1. Maybe he sees himself as the Vince McMahon of F1? Entertainment wins over sport.


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## Piece (Dec 13, 2021)

Slime said:



			Then shouldn't Hamilton have conceded his lead when he cut out the corner at the beginning of the race?
He really did miss out a lot of the circuit.
		
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Because he was forced off the circuit and had nowhere to go. Masi's words not mine. Lewis slowed a bit to reduce the margin, again Masi's words not mine. To rejoin the track earlier would have been wholly unsafe and a likely time penalty. My words 

That incident is one of many that needs review in the close season as Max's style of overtaking needs clarity so that all drivers can know what is acceptable next year.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59631665

This is a very good read indeed. It may enlighten one or two. Bottom line it sums up yesterdays farce. For me I cannot see it finishing anytime before it go to court.
personally I am surprised other “ neutral” teams never put in complaints about how the final decisions were made.

Quote from the link
*The questions over the rules*
What followed was unprecedented.

Race director Michael Masi initially said lapped cars would not be allowed to overtake, which would have left five cars between Hamilton and Verstappen for the one lap of racing that it looked like would be left.

*That's against normal protocol, so Red Bull complained. *

Masi changed his mind and let those five cars overtake - but not the other three. This put Verstappen and Hamilton together but left two lapped cars between third-placed Carlos Sainz's Ferrari and Verstappen and one between Valtteri Bottas' Mercedes and Yuki Tsunoda's Alpha Tauri.

*This is also against normal protocol. So Mercedes complained, to no avail.
🤔*

Click to expand...

Thing is, although not within normal protocol, option 1 which Red Bull complained about was within the rules. It was a way Masi could have got them racing with a lap to go, without bending the rules.

Option 2, which Merc are complaining about, was not within the rules, and there is no precedent for it.

The 2 viable alternatives according to the rules, were leave lapped cars in place and have a one lap race, or remove lapped cars and finish under the safety car. 

To be consistent, it really should have been unlapped cars out of the way and finish under the safety car, because that's what would have been done in any other race of the season, or at any other point in any other race, including this one.

Regardless of whether any one is pro-Verstappen or pro-Hamilton, or whether they think one driver was more deserving than the other over the season as a whole, in the interests of the integrity of the competition in the future, they should not be pleased with how this has been handled. It's not really about which driver should have won, it's about whether what happened yesterday was fair in the context of the rules of the sport. If this carries on, it's Merc that have lost out this season, but who will it be next season? No one can think that's right, surely?!?!


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## Dando (Dec 13, 2021)

Slime said:



			Then shouldn't Hamilton have conceded his lead when he cut out the corner at the beginning of the race?
He really did miss out a lot of the circuit.
		
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Given Lewis’ speed advantage he would’ve retaken the lead on a few laps anyway


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## Piece (Dec 13, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I've digested yesterday's events overnight, and still feel the same.

I've no objection to Verstappen winning the World Championship, he is a worthy winner. It's certainly no fluke, a la Rosberg, Button and a few others. Over the course of the season, both drivers have been brilliant. Well done Max Verstappen, what happened yesterday was not his fault.

However, it was a farce. What is the role of the race director if not to enforce the rules and ensure sporting integrity? Sometimes, the race director and the stewards are faced with subjective issues and they make decisions that not everyone agrees with, sometimes those decisions are somewhat inconsistent, they're only human after all. Yesterday, though, there was no subjectivity to the rules as everyone understood them, the rule book was torn up and sporting integrity binned at the same time, in the interests of entertainment. That doesn't sit right with me. The race director should be impartial, ensuring that the rules are followed to the letter throughout the entire season, regardless of the circumstances of the race; emotion shouldn't be a factor in that person's decision making.

The sad thing though is that this is all being driven by Liberty's drive for entertainment and drama, which ultimately makes them money. Masi has delivered what they want and that will please them - they won't mind the ongoing furore as there's no such thing as bad publicity as far as they are concerned. They'll keep on running the sport like this as it suits them very nicely indeed.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this. The silly thing is that yes we all want the result to be done via a race, but contriving a last lap shoot out when one car is basically a sitting duck, just doesn't sit right. Surely race control would have know that. I'm all for entertainment but not at the behest of rule flexing and relying on an FIA rule that says the race director can do what he wants.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 13, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Because the last 20 years have been utterly dire perhaps?

I'm very much the same, I never missed a race up until my mid 30s, then along came the one team dominance of Schumacher and now Hamilton, with a period of Red Bull thrown into the middle. There's no overtaking, it's unbelievably boring.

However with Lewis looking like losing this season, I've been tuned into the last 3 races, yesterday while another example of the genre, did at least produce the most exciting finish in 2 decades, and for that we can thank Massi for allowing them to race for that final lap. Edge of the seat stuff, brilliant viewing.
		
Click to expand...

On the point of of no overtaking. This is simply not true. The stats show there has been more overtaking during this era of F1 than at almost any other time.


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## Kennysarmy (Dec 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			Exactly this. The silly thing is that yes we all want the result to be done via a race, but contriving a last lap shoot out when one car is basically a sitting duck, just doesn't sit right. Surely race control would have know that. I'm all for entertainment but not at the behest of rule flexing and relying on an FIA rule that says the race director can do what he wants.
		
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They know it now, but my guess in the heat of the moment their brains departed their bodies!
Too much pressure from all sides led to a bad decision.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			Exactly this. The silly thing is that yes we all want the result to be done via a race, but contriving a last lap shoot out when one car is basically a sitting duck, just doesn't sit right. Surely race control would have know that. I'm all for entertainment but not at the behest of rule flexing and relying on an FIA rule that says the race director can do what he wants.
		
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Absolutely, had the process in 48.12 been followed to the letter and that left 1 lap of racing to go, with Verstappen winning, I would have been gutted but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

48.12 would also have been followed to the letter at any other point, in any other race, across the whole season. The decision making should not be dependent upon the circumstances of the race. It's bonkers!


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

Kennysarmy said:



			They know it now, but my guess in the heat of the moment their brains departed their bodies!
Too much pressure from all sides led to a bad decision.
		
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I think Masi has been under pressure from his bosses to make sure there is as much on track drama as possible across the whole season.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			Exactly this. The silly thing is that yes we all want the result to be done via a race, but contriving a last lap shoot out when one car is basically a sitting duck, just doesn't sit right. Surely race control would have know that. I'm all for entertainment but not at the behest of rule flexing and relying on an FIA rule that says the race director can do what he wants.
		
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The Sky team were talking about some “agreement” between the team and race control (before the race ) that the race needed to finish under green flag etc - and they suggested that RC was trying to get that to please everyone and have the cars racing over the line with the winner etc 

I guess if the rolls were reversed Mercedes would have no issues with what happened and Red Bull complaining like mad

The whole radio talk surprised me a little about how much the team principals are trying to influence the director  - Wolff begging for no safety car , Horner asking for the lapped cars to get out of the way etc


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 13, 2021)

As far as I am aware, Mercedes have not made any statements on the matter, to that end, Red Bull haven't said a great deal either. I find that quite telling, and I am assuming that they are keeping their powder dry for what is to come.


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## rksquire (Dec 13, 2021)

Max is champion, but have to say Lewis shaking his hand, and that of Horners, and not simply storming of the stage & throwing a strop (like Max the previous week) shows his character.  Same with the pictures of Lewis's father later on.

But, not to pursue their appeal would be wrong.  It isn't necessary to change the result, Mercedes should accept that's gone; but the purpose of progressing the appeal has to be so that F1 can put it's house in order.  The race director's purpose is not to conduct a live event like it's the WWE or a soap opera episode.  I completely get this year the drama has probably increased viewing figures but it has come at the cost of credibility. Having 2 well matched cars with 2 well matched drivers is fantastic; having fluid rules in place and a race director who's orchestrating things to extent he seemed capable of is not fantastic.  An appeal will hopefully see a review of the rules, a review of the powers of the race director, an FIA scapegoat in the form of Masi, an exposure of Horner & Wolfe and the influence they tried to exert over said director and stewards, and ultimately a finding that the rules weren't followed due to misinterpretation / time constraints and the time pressure of other options not being available given the proximity to end of the race.

I'd heard commentators last night compare it with the 'Aguueerrrooooo!!!!' goal but that's not fair at all.  Nobody asked QPR to get out of the way whilst at the same time making sure Wayne Rooney didn't have the appropriate footwear for the last few minutes (not that United actually could do anything about it) so it's not the same... maybe similar in terms of drama, but that's it.


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## cliveb (Dec 13, 2021)

Something nobody has mentioned. Imagine the total s*** storm and finger-pointing there would have been if the safety car had been caused by an Alpha Tauri crashing. Lucky for Red Bull it was a Merc-powered car.


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## Beezerk (Dec 13, 2021)

I heard a brief interview with MV on the radio this morning, he was thanking everyone but I don’t recall him mentioning his dad. Seemed a glaring omission to me.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			Exactly this. The silly thing is that yes we all want the result to be done via a race, but contriving a last lap shoot out when one car is basically a sitting duck, just doesn't sit right. Surely race control would have know that. I'm all for entertainment but not at the behest of rule flexing and relying on an FIA rule that says the race director can do what he wants.
		
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I trust you realise that the alternative (final lap under SC/allowing ALL lapped cars to reform at rear) was an equally foregone conclusion!


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## Beedee (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you realise that the alternative (final lap under SC/allowing ALL lapped cars to reform at rear) was an equally foregone conclusion!
		
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But foregone conclusions that follow the rules are better than ones made up on the fly


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2021)

Dando said:



			Given Lewis’ speed advantage he would’ve retaken the lead on a few laps anyway
		
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Exactly this, it had no relevance to the outcome


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Beedee said:



			But foregone conclusions that follow the rules are better than ones made up on the fly
		
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I agree! I have a feeling that the magnitude of THIS race affected some of the 'participants' too much. The previous 'finished under Safety' race surely set some sort of a precedent, even if the circumstances weren't absolutely the same.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 13, 2021)

rksquire said:



			Max is champion, but have to say Lewis shaking his hand, and that of Horners, and not simply storming of the stage & throwing a strop (like Max the previous week) shows his character.  Same with the pictures of Lewis's father later on.
		
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Agreed, it's taken him a long time to grow up, I expected a sulk, it was very good to see that.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Sky team were talking about some “agreement” between the team and race control (before the race ) that the race needed to finish under green flag etc - and they suggested that RC was trying to get that to please everyone and have the cars racing over the line with the winner etc

I guess if the rolls were reversed Mercedes would have no issues with what happened and Red Bull complaining like mad

The whole radio talk surprised me a little about how much the team principals are trying to influence the director  - Wolff begging for no safety car , Horner asking for the lapped cars to get out of the way etc
		
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I don't think anybody is disputing the fact that, ideally, you want the race to finish under Green Flag conditions. At any point in a race, and race during the season, you want the safety car brought in ASAP. Up to now, all lapped cars have been told to pass the safety car before race proceeds a lap later. However, the Race Director MAY also stop this happening, and just let the race proceed with the lapped cars in position. So, if Masi had done this, there could be little argument under the documented procedures. Maybe Mercedes would have complained it was done differently at other races if it had worked out badly for Lewis, but it was still within the regs.

Instead, what happened yesterday was a farce. It is interesting people are quick to say Max is a deserving champion. But, had the safety car never been required, Lewis would have won and I assume people would say he was a worthy champion? If the FIA had followed their own procedures, Lewis would have won, and I assume he would have been a worthy champion? So, basically, based on the FIA's actions, they have directly defined who is this years "deserving" champion. Had they been consistent, they'd have no concerns. Red Bull might have complained, but they always do.


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## Piece (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you realise that the alternative (final lap under SC/allowing ALL lapped cars to reform at rear) was an equally foregone conclusion!
		
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Do you mean the race ending under SC?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you realise that the alternative (final lap under SC/allowing ALL lapped cars to reform at rear) was an equally foregone conclusion!
		
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Not quite sure what your point is though? 

If the suggestion is that the race should never be a foregone conclusion until the last lap, why bother with the other laps at all? Lets just reduce F1 to a one lap shoot out.

Even that would have been fairer than what actually happened though, because at least all cars would have had the same tyres.


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you realise that the alternative (final lap under SC/allowing ALL lapped cars to reform at rear) was an equally foregone conclusion!
		
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But it wasn't the only alternative. The race director had the option to allow no lapped cars through, an option he was going to exercise which is why you heard Horner going ballistic on the radio. If he had continued with this option it would have given Hamilton a deserved advantage but also would have given Verstapen the opportunity to pass the five cars in front under blue flags, on new tyres, overtake Hamilton and win. How thrilling would that have been?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

Golfnut1957 said:



			But it wasn't the only alternative. The race director had the option to allow no lapped cars through, an option he was going to exercise which is why you heard Horner going ballistic on the radio. If he had continued with this option it would have given Hamilton a deserved advantage but also would have given Verstapen the opportunity to pass the five cars in front under blue flags, on new tyres, overtake Hamilton and win. How thrilling would that have been?
		
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It would have been thrilling, but also completely impossible.

Hamilton would have gone flat out as soon as the safety car was gone and stretched the pack out. Verstappen may not have even cleared the 5 lapped cars in one lap, and even if he did, Hamilton would have been 3 or 4 seconds up the road.


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## rksquire (Dec 13, 2021)

See Michael Masi has just completed the Champions League draw, without incident.....


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## greenone (Dec 13, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			It would have been thrilling, but also completely impossible.

Hamilton would have gone flat out as soon as the safety car was gone and stretched the pack out. Verstappen may not have even cleared the 5 lapped cars in one lap, and even if he did, Hamilton would have been 3 or 4 seconds up the road.
		
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If it had been done properly verstappen would have been under pressure from sainz, as it was he had 2 back markers in the way that weren't allowed to unlap themselves


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Golfnut1957 said:



			But it wasn't the only alternative. The race director had the option to allow no lapped cars through, an option he was going to exercise which is why you heard Horner going ballistic on the radio. If he had continued with this option it would have given Hamilton a deserved advantage but also would have given Verstapen the opportunity to pass the five cars in front under blue flags, on new tyres, overtake Hamilton and win. How thrilling would that have been?
		
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Oops...
I meant to include that option too - then forgot completely about it! It would have been MY 'preferred' option!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

rksquire said:



			See Michael Masi has just completed the Champions League draw, without incident.....
		
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I didn't see it, but just seen the breaking news that it now has to be redrawn due to an "Admin Error". Perhaps Masi was in charge after all. However, if he was, no redraw necessary. He'd just defend the error by saying he can do as he pleases, so bog off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Yet you still feel the need to come on a thread about it and comment?🤷‍♂️
		
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Well yes…because I came on the thread earlier when the race was on to say that I was watching the race, something I hadn’t done for a very long time.  So please…your admonition was rather unnecessary…but hey…it’s SiLH.  Water off a ducks back.


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## Jimaroid (Dec 13, 2021)

Just a thought that if I were a major sponsor or bookmaker with any integrity I'd be seriously questioning the ongoing relationship we have with F1 today.


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## ExRabbit (Dec 13, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			How can a self proclaimed "massive" fan stop watching altogether for 20 years???
That doesn't make sense...


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I thought I explained why in my comment.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Just a thought that if I were a major sponsor or bookmaker with any integrity I'd be seriously questioning the ongoing relationship we have with F1 today.
		
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It'll be interesting what discussions are going on behind many closed doors. What will Mercedes be thinking, and their direct sponsors? It would even be interesting what Red Bull and their sponsors are discussing. Sure, they'll be delighted to win, but no one would be happy to win that way privately? As always, they will come out and defend decisions that go their way (like any team) to the public. But, Max's world championship win comes at a cost, the exact same cost that would have been Lewis' price to pay had roles been exactly reversed. On paper Max is World Champion, and his fans will celebrate that. However, to the wider audience, the FIA have turned F1 into an embarrassment.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Kaz said:



			... and there will always be an air of *dubiety* about the outcome....
		
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Many thanks for introducing that word to me! Always fiddled about with 'dubious' including (always rejected) thoughts about 'dubiousness' in the past. Nearly geographically appropriate too!


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## dewsweeper (Dec 13, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			So glad Lewis lost. 👍
		
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Sad sort of reply


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Just a thought that if I were a major sponsor or bookmaker with any integrity I'd be seriously questioning the ongoing relationship we have with F1 today.
		
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Why? It’s generated more exposure that they would ever have imagined.


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## garyinderry (Dec 13, 2021)

Always feels strange watching F1 when you see a leader build up a nice lead for a safety car to inevitably come out and bunch up the field. Seems a waste of effort. 
Also having lapped cars in the way of the leaders seems silly too as they have to move out of the way anyway.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Thing is, although not within normal protocol, option 1 which Red Bull complained about was within the rules. It was a way Masi could have got them racing with a lap to go, without bending the rules.

Option 2, which Merc are complaining about, was not within the rules, and there is no precedent for it.

The 2 viable alternatives according to the rules, were leave lapped cars in place and have a one lap race, or remove lapped cars and finish under the safety car.

To be consistent, it really should have been unlapped cars out of the way and finish under the safety car, because that's what would have been done in any other race of the season, or at any other point in any other race, including this one.

*Regardless of whether any one is pro-Verstappen or pro-Hamilton, or whether they think one driver was more deserving than the other over the season as a whole, in the interests of the integrity of the competition in the future, they should not be pleased with how this has been handled. It's not really about which driver should have won, it's about whether what happened yesterday was fair in the context of the rules of the sport. If this carries on, it's Merc that have lost out this season, but who will it be next season? No one can think that's right, surely?!?*!
		
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Nail on head 👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 13, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Why? It’s generated more exposure that they would ever have imagined.
		
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Yep - I expect the owners and sponsers will be loving it , right now it’s the biggest talking point in sport


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			Always feels strange watching F1 when you see a leader build up a nice lead for a safety car to inevitably come out and bunch up the field. Seems a waste of effort.
Also having lapped cars in the way of the leaders seems silly too as they have to move out of the way anyway.
		
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It does but in the same sense, in this instance Hamilton overtook them during th course of the race. The Person behind must feel like Moses when the Red Sea parted. If the lapped cars had not moved out of the way Hamilton would of been 600 yds down the track before Verstappen went round the last corner With the lapped cars in front.


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## Rooter (Dec 13, 2021)

Was away this weekend, what did i miss?


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 13, 2021)

The view from behind, this is epic https://www.givemesport.com/1801330...do-had-the-best-view-of-last-lap-in-abu-dhabi


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## bobmac (Dec 13, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Was away this weekend, what did i miss?
		
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Lewis was cruising to win the World Championship with a 12 second lead with 6 laps to go. Verstappen was second but with 5 lapped cars between him and Lewis.
There was a crash (Latifi), safety car came out.
The FIA director broke the rules by removing the lapped cars in Max's way and allowed Max to catch Lewis up. They were wrongly given one lap to race for the championship. Lewis on old hard tyres, Max on fresh soft tyres.
Lewis had no defence and Max overtook him.
Max wins and is champion because he was in the right place on the right tyres when the race director did not follow the rules.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Lewis was cruising to win the World Championship with a 12 second lead with 6 laps to go. Verstappen was second but with 5 lapped cars between him and Lewis.
There was a crash (Latifi), safety car came out.
The FIA director broke the rules by removing the lapped cars in Max's way and allowed Max to catch Lewis up. They were wrongly given one lap to race for the championship. Lewis on old hard tyres, Max on fresh soft tyres.
Lewis had no defence and Max overtook him.
Max wins and is champion because he was in the right place on the right tyres when the race director did not follow the rules.
		
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Good summary. Just to add, however, as this was all "entertaining", then it was perfectly acceptable for the Race Director to break all the guidelines. His defence was "the Race Director has the final call on safety car matters, and overrides any other written regulations".

I'm looking forward to next season. The Race Director also has the final call for the starting procedure, despite all the regulations there are for that. So, now Red Bull know they can play his strings, expect all cars (except Red Bull) to go out for the parade lap before starting the race, whilst both Red Bull cars are already on Lap 10. Or, maybe he will allow a handicapped race start, where slower cars start the race early, all aimed at getting an exciting finish to the race. After all, excitement is ALL that matters. Sporting integrity means nothing.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Lewis was cruising to win the World Championship with a 12 second lead with 6 laps to go. Verstappen was second but with 5 lapped cars between him and Lewis.
There was a crash (Latifi), safety car came out.
The *FIA director broke the rules* by removing the lapped cars in Max's way and allowed Max to catch Lewis up. They were wrongly given one lap to race for the championship. Lewis on old hard tyres, Max on fresh soft tyres.
Lewis had no defence and Max overtook him.
Max wins and is champion because he was in the right place on the right tyres when the race director did not follow the rules.
		
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Re the bold bit...
IYO!
Not according to the Stewards during the Appeal by Mercedes, instead applying an 'overriding' one.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/...nored-to-go-racing-at-the-end-of-abu-dhabi-gp


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## pompeybandit (Dec 13, 2021)

I'm not a massive fan of F1 but been thinking of how they could of ended this a better way. Perhaps they should make all the cars have enough fuel for an extra 3 laps on top of the normal amount needed for a race. This way if a safety car is deployed near the end of the original distance they all have enough fuel to extend the racing past originally planned one. If it looks like the safety car is needed for longer bring the cars into the pits until track is clear with no changes allowed.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit...
IYO!
Not according to the Stewards during the Appeal by Mercedes, instead applying an 'overriding' one.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/...nored-to-go-racing-at-the-end-of-abu-dhabi-gp

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Don't be coming here with yer facts now!!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit...
IYO!
Not according to the Stewards during the Appeal by Mercedes, instead applying an 'overriding' one.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/...nored-to-go-racing-at-the-end-of-abu-dhabi-gp

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They're making it up as they go along to protect and justify the decision made. Nowhere in the rules does it say that 48.13 overrides 48.12. 

I can't believe that in a sport that is so black and white when it comes to the rules that this incident can possibly be allowed to happen. Mercedes got penalised (correctly IMO) earlier in the season because of a problem with the rear wing being a mm or two out of spec. That's how tight the rules are yet Masi has ignored the rules and protocols purely to create an entertaining end to the season. That's not his job, his job is to apply the rules correctly.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Don't be coming here with yer facts now!! 

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I'd bet those rules get modified (for clarification of course) for next year!


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## Whereditgo (Dec 13, 2021)

If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to hit their pit lane limiter and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			They're making it up as they go along to protect and justify the decision made. Nowhere in the rules does it say that 48.13 overrides 48.12.

I can't believe that in a sport that is so black and white when it comes to the rules that this incident can possibly be allowed to happen. Mercedes got penalised (correctly IMO) earlier in the season because of a problem with the rear wing being a mm or two out of spec. That's how tight the rules are yet Masi has ignored the rules and protocols purely to create an entertaining end to the season. That's not his job, his job is to apply the rules correctly.
		
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Perhaps. But that's how they ruled Mercedes's claim out.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps. But that's how they ruled Mercedes's claim out.
		
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Will be interesting to see if it stands up in a court of law, assuming Mercedes decide to take it that far. My personal opinion is that they would win the argument that the rules weren't followed but whether that would actually change anything is another matter.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps. But that's how they ruled Mercedes's claim out.
		
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It was literally their only way to try and wriggle out of a humiliating corner they backed themselves into. But, as I said in my last post, it means that the Race Director can basically do what he likes in many situations and simply say the that his decision overrides any written regulations. I'm unsure how the Sport Court of Arbitration works, but having read some articles on that today, if Mercedes bring it to them, the FIA will struggle to have a leg to stand on. Furthermore, regardless of that, much of the damage has already been done. F1's reputation has taken a kicking. Not just yesterday, but crazy decisions by the FIA all season have caused concern. Yesterday was the icing on the cake, the cliffhanger  that would be written into a movie script.

No doubt more clarification will be written into the rules next year, however I'm pretty sure they will be updated to largely back the way Mercedes expected the race to finish yesterday. I'd be shocked if the regulations were written to highlight that the race director can do as he pleases


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## Beedee (Dec 13, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to hit their pit lane limiter and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.
		
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The safety car is deliberately to bunch the field together but it's for safety reasons rather than spectacle.  It's so that the cars are all in the same short section of the track.  That means that the track is empty for a minute or so at a time.  Much safer for the marshalls than the track being constantly busy with slower moving cars.  The safety car isn't going that slowly either.  It's just slow compared to an F1 car.  If it went any slower, or if the cars were on pit lane limiters, they'd lose all temperature in their tyres and brakes.  It would be carnage on the restart.

Personally I think the rule should be that the lapped cars stay in position.  The leader  had to lap them so so should the pursuers.  If they really must get them out of the way then why not allow the field to bunch, then all lapped cars must trundle through the pits.  That would drop them back and allow the field to bunch up again in under a lap.


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## woofers (Dec 13, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to hit their pit lane limiter and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.
		
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Totally agree. Surely the simplest way to resolve this in future is for the cars to maintain the distances relative to their rivals, just like they do when the ‘virtual safety car’ is in operation. Simple to change and implement?


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## Whereditgo (Dec 13, 2021)

Beedee said:



			The safety car is deliberately to bunch the field together but it's for safety reasons rather than spectacle.  It's so that the cars are all in the same short section of the track.  That means that the track is empty for a minute or so at a time.  Much safer for the marshalls than the track being constantly busy with slower moving cars.  The safety car isn't going that slowly either.  It's just slow compared to an F1 car.  If it went any slower, or if the cars were on pit lane limiters, they'd lose all temperature in their tyres and brakes.  It would be carnage on the restart.

Personally I think the rule should be that the lapped cars stay in position.  The leader  had to lap them so so should the pursuers.  If they really must get them out of the way then why not allow the field to bunch, then all lapped cars must trundle through the pits.  That would drop them back and allow the field to bunch up again in under a lap.
		
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I realise that it is primarily a safety issue, but with a maximum of what?, 20 cars circulating at reduced speeds it's not not like the M25 for the marshalls. Then have a 1 lap yellow flag lap if tyre temperature is really a concern.


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## Piece (Dec 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Lewis was cruising to win the World Championship with a 12 second lead with 6 laps to go. Verstappen was second but with 5 lapped cars between him and Lewis.
There was a crash (Latifi), safety car came out.
*The FIA director broke the rules by removing the lapped cars in Max's way* and allowed Max to catch Lewis up. They were wrongly given one lap to race for the championship. Lewis on old hard tyres, Max on fresh soft tyres.
Lewis had no defence and Max overtook him.
Max wins and is champion because he was in the right place on the right tyres when the race director did not follow the rules.
		
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Not 100% correct. What should have happened is that ALL eight lapped cars to overtake the SC, not just the ones in front of Max. Then the SC pulls in at the end of the next lap - the final lap - so race ends in a SC.

Masi was/is "protected" by a seemingly catch-all rule, where he has "overriding authority".


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## Sports_Fanatic (Dec 13, 2021)

You've got to wonder what would happen if Ferrari took to the FIA to court on this. I know it ended up irrelevant for them, but I can't see any argument that would allow the rules to be broken in a way that allows Max in P2 a clear start to attack Hamilton, and yet gets the benefit of lapped cars behind him to prevent Sainz having a go.

Sainz was on hard tyres so unlikely to impact, but Max could easily have got a pass wrong, run wide, have to give a place back and then be in trouble if Sainz on same tyres as Hamilton was right behind him.

Masi new the outcome of restarting or not restarting the race given the tyre difference so by not following the rules he made a deliberate choice. Red flag - not within rules but at least equal. Restart with lapped cars in the way, I expect Max wins but at least fair fight, move cars to unlap sooner so time to race, Max wins but fair or finish under safety car and Lewis wins all fine. The only thing he really couldn't do is go against the exact wording of the walls just for entertainment and opening F1 up to this. Still I expect he may be happy as it gets the attention and talked about finale.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 13, 2021)

What I don’t understand is Masi’ comment ‘we went motor racing’ surely if that was his intent and he wanted to create that then he should have red flagged the race. 
Ultimately he’s panicked, and in that panic he’s allowed a situation to manifest that enables one team to cry foul, surely his first and foremost responsibility is to maintain the integrity of the sport and the race. (After safety of course) It’s been a shambles and left a bitter taste, I genuinely think it leaves Masi in an untenable position, they just need to work out how he leaves without some form of admission of guilt. I suspect cooler heads will prevail, Lewis will distance himself from the furore and Mercedes’ will be happy being the aggrieved party. 

What a shame for kimi whos send off was diluted, and a shame for Max that this will slightly tarnish his first win.  Looking forward to next year already, but I do hope the next drive to survive is not a court room drama.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			If it (deploying a safety car) was purely about safety then, all cars circulating should be told to *hit their pit lane limiter* and hold station until the it is safe to resume racing, but (IMO) the safety car scenario is intended, or at least there is a happy consequence, to bunch the cars back up to reduce the number of times the lead car just clears off and the safety car incident manufactures a race.

To me (another one time F1 fan) the 'sport' loses credibility when a car is 12 seconds down the road with a handful of laps left and the driver in second is enabled to close up to the leaders rear wing.
		
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I'd suggest a 'Safety Car Limiter' as opposed to your 'Pit Lane' one. Restart would be unsafe because of the significant difference in speeds between the two. Pit Lane limiter is 80Kph on race day (60 in practice), whereas Safety Car has been clocked at nearly 160mph in 'speed trap'. The higher speed for SC is so that race cars can keep tyre temps up to proper working temps.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 13, 2021)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			You've got to wonder what would happen if Ferrari took to the FIA to court on this. I know it ended up irrelevant for them, but I can't see any argument that would allow the rules to be broken in a way that allows Max in P2 a clear start to attack Hamilton, and yet gets the benefit of lapped cars behind him to prevent Sainz having a go.

Sainz was on hard tyres so unlikely to impact, but Max could easily have got a pass wrong, run wide, have to give a place back and then be in trouble if Sainz on same tyres as Hamilton was right behind him.

Masi new the outcome of restarting or not restarting the race given the tyre difference so by not following the rules he made a deliberate choice. Red flag - not within rules but at least equal. Restart with lapped cars in the way, I expect Max wins but at least fair fight, move cars to unlap sooner so time to race, Max wins but fair or finish under safety car and Lewis wins all fine. The only thing he really couldn't do is go against the exact wording of the walls just for entertainment and opening F1 up to this. Still I expect he may be happy as it gets the attention and talked about finale.
		
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Why couldn’t it be red-flagged? Too far into the race?


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## bobmac (Dec 13, 2021)

Piece said:



			Not 100% correct. What should have happened is that* ALL eight lapped cars to overtake the SC, not just the ones in front of Max.* Then the SC pulls in at the end of the next lap - the final lap - so race ends in a SC.
		
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I'm well aware of that. Please see post no. 969.
I was summarising the events in which only 5 lapped cars were allowed to pass the SC, therefor removing the cars in Max's way. 
If you're looking for an argument, please try and find someone who disagrees with you. Thank you


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## Whereditgo (Dec 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'd suggest a 'Safety Car Limiter' as opposed to your 'Pit Lane' one. Restart would be unsafe because of the significant difference in speeds between the two. Pit Lane limiter is 80Kph on race day (60 in practice), whereas Safety Car has been clocked at nearly 160mph in 'speed trap'. The higher speed for SC is so that race cars can keep tyre temps up to proper working temps.
		
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Yeah, I realise that the pit lane limiter would be way too slow, even behind the safety car the race cars tyre temperature drops out of the optimum range owing to the lower cornering capability of the safety car, irrespective of it's straight line speed.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			I realise that it is primarily a safety issue, but with a maximum of what?, 20 cars circulating at reduced speeds it's not not like the M25 for the marshalls. Then have a 1 lap yellow flag lap if tyre temperature is really a concern.
		
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20 cars circulating at reduced speeds, but still well over 100 mph. Just saw some stats from Canada. Under normal conditions, F1 cars took the speed trap before Turn 13 at over 188 mph. Under the safety car, they took the speed trap at "only" 160 mph. So, put yourself in the position of a race martial, who may be clearing large parts of a track of debris, or in a vulnerable position repairing a barrier or removing a car. You have up to 20 cars randomly driving past at well over 100 mph. I wouldn't fancy it.

As Beedee said, bunching the cars together is purely about safety. It leaves large windows where marshals will know the track will be clear of F1 cars. Safety is the only reason the safety car will be out in the first place. It will often be seen as the last resort (well, before red flagging the race anyway). So, bunching the field is absolutely not an intended consequence to simply wipe out a large gap between cars. If it was intended, then the safety car would be brought out much more often.

This is the benefit of the Virtual Safety Car, where these gaps remain in place. This is the preferred option over the full Safety Car, but will only be chosen if it is considered safe.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

FIA appeal result is in, can't say I'm surprised by the result 

https://newsthump.com/2021/12/13/fi...or-mercedes-appeal-awards-penalty-to-man-utd/


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## cliveb (Dec 13, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			Why couldn’t it be red-flagged? Too far into the race?
		
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Yes. Red flag after 75% of the race is usually the end of proceedings.


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## cliveb (Dec 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As Beedee said, bunching the cars together is purely about safety. It leaves large windows where marshals will know the track will be clear of F1 cars.
		
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Here's a thought. Perhaps after a safety car period ends, the cars are required to spend the next lap re-establishing the gaps that existed beforehand, then the green flag comes out on the following lap.

i appreciate this would reduce the spectacle, but it would certainly be fairer.


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## Whereditgo (Dec 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			20 cars circulating at reduced speeds, but still well over 100 mph. Just saw some stats from Canada. Under normal conditions, F1 cars took the speed trap before Turn 13 at over 188 mph. Under the safety car, they took the speed trap at "only" 160 mph. So, put yourself in the position of a race martial, who may be clearing large parts of a track of debris, or in a vulnerable position repairing a barrier or removing a car. You have up to 20 cars randomly driving past at well over 100 mph. I wouldn't fancy it.

As Beedee said, bunching the cars together is purely about safety. It leaves large windows where marshals will know the track will be clear of F1 cars. Safety is the only reason the safety car will be out in the first place. It will often be seen as the last resort (well, before red flagging the race anyway). So, bunching the field is absolutely not an intended consequence to simply wipe out a large gap between cars. If it was intended, then the safety car would be brought out much more often.

This is the benefit of the Virtual Safety Car, where these gaps remain in place. This is the preferred option over the full Safety Car, but will only be chosen if it is considered safe.
		
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I'm not suggesting the cars (less than 20, because at least one has been involved in the incident, in fact I think there were substantially less than 20 still on track?) circulate at the speeds you are stating, I originally suggested the pit lane speed limiter be employed, but agreed that would be too slow. The cars are also able to slow further if necessary as they approach and pass the incident. You seem to be suggesting that the 160 mph behind the safety car is a safer speed? Whilst I get that the safety of marshalls and drivers is paramount, the safety car too often affects the result.

Personally I think the race directors statement of "we went racing" indicates that he thought he was doing the right thing by trying to get the race finished under a green flag, but that was a mistake.


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Here's a thought. Perhaps after a safety car period ends, the cars are required to spend the next lap re-establishing the gaps that existed beforehand, then the green flag comes out on the following lap.

i appreciate this would reduce the spectacle, but it would certainly be fairer.
		
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Or 'equally unfair'!


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## Wildboy370 (Dec 13, 2021)

Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy. They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			I'm not suggesting the cars (less than 20, because at least one has been involved in the incident, in fact I think there were substantially less than 20 still on track?) circulate at the speeds you are stating, I originally suggested the pit lane speed limiter be employed, but agreed that would be too slow. The cars are also able to slow further if necessary as they approach and pass the incident. You seem to be suggesting that the 160 mph behind the safety car is a safer speed? Whilst I get that the safety of marshalls and drivers is paramount, the safety car too often affects the result.

Personally I think the race directors statement of "we went racing" indicates that he thought he was doing the right thing by trying to get the race finished under a green flag, but that was a mistake.
		
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But, you are essentially describing the Virtual Safety Car, are you not? Which already exists, and often utilised.

I've no doubt the safety car does wipe out any advantage someone had in terms of time with the car behind. It can be seen as unfair, but it has long been accepted. And, in fairness, it does introduce an element of tactics that can be used by the team, so I'm not personally worried about it in general.

The key criticism is not what happens behind safety car. Had there been no lapped cars between Max and Lewis, the safety car would have been very unlucky for Lewis, but there'd have been no inconsistency  in the application of the rules. The biggest issue is the FIA's completely new interpretation of their own guidelines, something that had never been done before.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

Wildboy370 said:



			Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy. They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.
		
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Of course they thought race would end. It would have ended if Masi had proceeded in the normal regulated way under safety car. He didn't. There was no way Mercedes could have predicted he'd tear up the rule book. That is exactly why they have protested. 

I don't think many in here believe teams should be in direct contact with Race Director, and potentially influence his position. This happens every race, so we could point to many teams doing this throughout the season. 

I very much doubt Masi is intentionally biased towards Red Bull because he prefers them, or in their pay book. However, Mercedes and Hamilton have dominated for a number of years, and that often is not healthy for the spectacle. So, with Max and Red Bull getting right in contention through this season, I imagine Masi has been reluctant to penalise Max at times, because he fears it may have put him on the back foot and put him behind Hamilton. I'm sure he'd have acted differently if other drivers had been involved in similar incidents.

Yesterday was bizarre. There is an argument Lewis could have been asked to give the position back at the start, it was touch and go. Red Bull played the victim, and let him know. I reckon this might have also influenced his decision at the end, suddenly manipulating a procedure to benefit Red Bull. But, it was like not giving Man Utd a free kick against Liverpool after 15 minutes when he could have done, and then to "balance" this, in 90th minute when Utd win a throw in, actually giving them a penalty instead.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 13, 2021)

Wildboy370 said:



			Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy. They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.
		
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The lawyer was there as a guest of the team. If not, and was there as part of the team. I call that being prepared after some of the decisions we’ve seen this season.

Could you tell me a time when F1 wasn’t about employing the best technology and strategy? Or when every race was full of overtaking and last lap wins?

All of the contrived entertainment that people seem to want from F1 is available in any number of other race series, yet nobody watches them. Funny that!

Like a few others on here I am a fan of the sport more than I am a particular driver or team. That might be difficult to understand for some of the football fans on here. 
What we’ve seen from Brazil concluding with the farce yesterday was not the F1 I want to watch.

People complain that it’s boring with Lewis winning all the time, clearly only see the results. The last 5 seasons have had some incredible racing, certainly some of the best I have seen.
F1 is about which team can build the fastest most reliable car to put the best driver in. Mercedes and Lewis have been the best at doing that there has ever been. 

I was looking forward to the change in regulations shaking things up next season. But I hope Mercedes turn up next season and destroy the competition again.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 13, 2021)

Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

Wildboy370 said:



			Having read numerous comments on various websites, it would appear there is a large slice of nationalism on behalf of Hamilton was hard done by. It has to be said if roles had been reversed very few would of batted an eye lid. People saying red bull manipulated the stewards, but very little if any mention of Toto Wolff telling, not asking telling the stewards do not give me a safety car when the first incident happened. Mercedes’ rolled the dice as did red bull at the end of the race. Mercedes’ actually told Hamilton we cannot pit we will loose track position. *When it had all ended they then changed this to we didnt change tyres as we thought race was going to end and we would of changed strategy.* They didn’t and red bull did. 50/50 chance of getting this right. Did the race director make a mistake, probably but the rules in F1 as all the sky commentators said are so open to interpretation. Was Hamilton forced off track earlier in race, stewards said yes but plenty of previous races this has not been given , interpretation. And the question is why did Mercedes bring a lawyer to the race for first time this season. Smacks of win at all costs. F1 for years has been a procession won by the team with the best man on a laptop ( strategy engineer ) and for once we watched an exciting race Ending instead of 20s between cars. Let’s hope the changes for next season makes for far better racing, overtaking and not won on pit stops.
		
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Did Mercedes actually say that? 

As to why merc brought a barrister, it’s not hard to see why they might have foreseen the possibility of a controversial end given how things have gone so far this season and the way Verstappen drove at Saudi in particular.

I don’t agree with the majority of your post, and I’ve set my view out clearly already so won’t repeat it. Clearly this is a subject that will split opinion, perhaps there’s a difference in view between F1 purists and those that are more about the entertainment. Personally, as a self proclaimed purist, I didn’t feel F1 needed the engineered drama, but  from this thread alone we know there are plenty of others that found it dull. C’est la vie.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!
		
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They would have already pulled out had the roles been reversed yesterday and Verstappen had lost in that fashion.


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## Slime (Dec 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



*Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal.* Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!
		
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Really?


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## Imurg (Dec 13, 2021)

They should declare the result null and void and declare joint Champions
They were tied on points, Max has one win extra courtesy of the debacle earlier in the year...
Its the only way to stop F1 being dragged through the courts and being made to look even sillier than it already does.
And we though Golf has problems with rules......


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!
		
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*IF* that's true then that's outrageous. Red Bull essentially blackmailing F1 to find in their favour.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 13, 2021)

Really disappointing way to end it all and one that irrespective of what side of the fence you sit on leaves a bad taste. I think the FIA made it a mockery and carry all of the blame. I think Mercedes should drop any further appeals, accept the result and work towards getting revenge next season. I'm sure they won't though and the discussion of the rules, their correct application (or not), any court cases and argument about what went on makes F1 look daft and only goes to alienate and lose those fans such a thrilling climax will have attracted


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## Sports_Fanatic (Dec 13, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Yes. Red flag after 75% of the race is usually the end of proceedings.
		
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Think that rule was scrapped. I said not done thing on red flag as they typically do safety car to clear smaller crashes, but then they follow the rules on unlapping and release. If they were moving away from the rules to create entertainment then a 5 lap sprint race (i.e. immediately red flag as not willing to have a SC be the end of championship) on softs would have been the better option.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



*IF* that's true then that's outrageous. Red Bull essentially blackmailing F1 to find in their favour.
		
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It’s nothing to do with F1 now! Ferrari used to do it all the time, and it wouldn’t be the first time Marco has said that. Redbull won’t pull out, it’s far too commercially valuable to them.

If I were Mercedes hearing that, I would push the case as hard as possible.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



*It’s nothing to do with F1 now! *Ferrari used to do it all the time. Redbull won’t pull out, it’s far too commercially valuable to them.

If I were Mercedes hearing that, I would push the case as hard as possible.
		
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Is the initial appeal not still to the FIA/F1? I assumed that they'd had their initial objections rejected and now would appeal against that finding. If that appeal fails then I thought the next step would be law courts or CAS.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is the initial appeal not still to the FIA/F1? I assumed that they'd had their initial objections rejected and now would appeal against that finding. If that appeal fails then I thought the next step would be law courts or CAS.
		
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Yes, you may be right. I was assuming it was going to CAS.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Really disappointing way to end it all and one that irrespective of what side of the fence you sit on leaves a bad taste. I think the FIA made it a mockery and carry all of the blame. I think Mercedes should drop any further appeals, accept the result and work towards getting revenge next season. I'm sure they won't though and the discussion of the rules, their correct application (or not), any court cases and argument about what went on makes F1 look daft and only goes to alienate and lose those fans such a thrilling climax will have attracted
		
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Let us just remember, it is not Mercedes that are making F1 looking daft. They were the victims in this farcical end to the season. 

The FIA (Masi) need to be held accountable. Otherwise they can effectively do as they wish in the future, making bizarre decisions that could cost companies millions.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Redbull making noises about pulling out of F1 should Mercedes be successful with their appeal. Suggests to me that Mercedes may have a strong case!
		
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Marko is a whiny knob and has  said that at various times over the years for various reasons. I wouldn't pay mutch attention to him


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## Piece (Dec 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm well aware of that. Please see post no. 969.
I was summarising the events in which only 5 lapped cars were allowed to pass the SC, therefor removing the cars in Max's way.
*If you're looking for an argument, please try and find someone who disagrees with you. Thank you*

Click to expand...

Huh? It was an innocent comment on a comment. Time to dial down the sensitivity level


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## bobmac (Dec 14, 2021)

Piece said:



			Time to dial down the sensitivity level 

Click to expand...

I will, if you stop telling me I'm wrong and trying to educate me on facts I already know.


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## bobmac (Dec 14, 2021)

Max wants No. 1

_Max Verstappen will change his Red Bull car number from No. 33 to No. 1 after becoming world champion for the first time in his career, according to Lewis Larkam of Crash.net.

“How many times can you do that?" Verstappen said. "Maybe it’s the only time I can in my life. It’s the best number out there, so I will definitely put it on the car.”_

__

https://www.si.com/racing/2021/12/1...pen will change his,Lewis Larkam of Crash.net.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Max wants No. 1

_Max Verstappen will change his Red Bull car number from No. 33 to No. 1 after becoming world champion for the first time in his career, according to Lewis Larkam of Crash.net._

_“How many times can you do that?" Verstappen said. "Maybe it’s the only time I can in my life. It’s the best number out there, so I will definitely put it on the car.”_

__

https://www.si.com/racing/2021/12/13/max-verstappen-red-bull-car-number-change-world-championship-title-defense-2022#:~:text=Max Verstappen to Change His Car Number After Becoming Formula 1 World Champion&text=Max Verstappen will change his,Lewis Larkam of Crash.net.
		
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That's how it always used to be, why the zippy?


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The lawyer was there as a guest of the team. If not, and was there as part of the team. I call that being prepared after some of the decisions we’ve seen this season.

Could you tell me a time when F1 wasn’t about employing the best technology and strategy? Or when every race was full of overtaking and last lap wins?

All of the contrived entertainment that people seem to want from F1 is available in any number of other race series, yet nobody watches them. Funny that!

Like a few others on here I am a fan of the sport more than I am a particular driver or team. That might be difficult to understand for some of the football fans on here.
What we’ve seen from Brazil concluding with the farce yesterday was not the F1 I want to watch.

People complain that it’s boring with Lewis winning all the time, clearly only see the results. *The last 5 seasons have had some incredible racing, certainly some of the best I have seen.*
F1 is about which team can build the fastest most reliable car to put the best driver in. Mercedes and Lewis have been the best at doing that there has ever been.

I was looking forward to the change in regulations shaking things up next season. But I hope Mercedes turn up next season and destroy the competition again.
		
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I have to ask how old you are to feel like that, I'm mid 50s and couldn't agree less with you. Since the beginning of the Schumi era F1 has largely been a monotonous procession, so we're talking 20+ years


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## BiMGuy (Dec 14, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I have to ask how old you are to feel like that, I'm mid 50s and couldn't agree less with you. Since the beginning of the Schumi era F1 has largely been a monotonous procession, so we're talking 20+ years
		
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I’ve watched pretty much every race since some time in the early 80s. A time when either half the cars would break down or the winner would be 3 laps ahead of everyone else. 

The refuelling times were the worst for me. 

Yes Mercedes have dominated the results, but the racing at many a GP has been fantastic. There are the usual dull ones, but fewer than in previous times.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve watched pretty much every race since some time in the early 80s. A time when either half the cars would break down or the winner would be 3 laps ahead of everyone else.

The refuelling times were the worst for me.

Yes Mercedes have dominated the results, but the racing at many a GP has been fantastic. There are the usual dull ones, but fewer than in previous times.
		
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I suspect people will watch the odd full race in the present, then they think back to one or 2 particular highlights that occured many years ago. They forget about all the historic dull moments.

It probably like anything when looking back to the "good old days". People have selective memories, and completely erase all the shocking and dull moments that happened in between the few highlights.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve watched pretty much every race since some time in the early 80s. A time when either half the cars would break down or the winner would be 3 laps ahead of everyone else.

The refuelling times were the worst for me.

Yes Mercedes have dominated the results, but the racing at many a GP has been fantastic. There are the usual dull ones, but fewer than in previous times.
		
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If you were watching for that period of time, what was your opinion of the tyre rule change in 2005/2006 where it was single use?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2021)

By the way has Sainz appealed about the safety car and back markers ? As he was directly impacted.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I have to ask how old you are to feel like that, I'm mid 50s and couldn't agree less with you. Since the beginning of the Schumi era F1 has largely been a monotonous procession, so we're talking 20+ years
		
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It was about race budgets really. They tried to control them but in the end they realised the accounting was too creative. They limited testing, but we were 6days a week testing in Fiorano .. and when they limited that we tested during public events or special occasions.. we never stopped.
So now they have tried to reduce cost with engine freezing, aero package limitations etc … but in the end the more sophisticated aero teams benefit and the engine freeze has locked in an engineering advantage. 
Customer engines are not the same as lead team engines, they are dialled back, the customer team has a few contractual obligations such as driver selection and in cases tyre data… they are not competing, they rarely have.
The cost wouldn’t have been an issue if the cigarette money hadn’t been stopped .. a couple of the old engineers will tell you about the wages back then and the bonuses .. it was a good era


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## BiMGuy (Dec 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			If you were watching for that period of time, what was your opinion of the tyre rule change in 2005/2006 where it was single use?
		
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Wasn’t great hence it got binned pretty quickly. However with refuelling there were still pit stops, which add to the strategy.

Current rules around tyre use aren’t too bad, despite the tyres themselves now being great.

Sainz has said the decision was wrong and Ferrari are not happy with it. But as far as I know there has been no protest.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Wasn’t great hence it got binned pretty quickly. However with refuelling there were still pit stops, which add to the strategy.

Current rules around tyre use aren’t too bad, despite the tyres themselves now being great.

Sainz has said the decision was wrong and Ferrari are not happy with it. But as far as I know there has been no protest.
		
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The single tyre use got introduced to give the Michelin a chance, some one very astute saw the difference between the two brands. 
Then when Bridgestone got their act together- there was a bit of fun in Imola in 2005 .. Alonso defended fantastically- the race alone is well worth watching again.
But Brazil 2006 the writing was on the wall for Michelin they were going to struggle for n 2007 so they managed to curtail the contract and leave .. which was a shame as a tyre war is awesome.
Pirelli are just producing the cheapest tyres out and have actually succumbed to pressure from the teams where they bring 3 specs ..under monopoly we only bought 2 compounds and the race teams had to make them work. It is a hard line to walk because the fast cars want hard because they generate down force and temperature to get the grip and the slower cars want soft because they cannot. 

Sainz hasn’t objected, which means Ferrari are happy with the results. Had they objected I suspect the comment would have been accepted


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## Swango1980 (Dec 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			The single tyre use got introduced to give the Michelin a chance, some one very astute saw the difference between the two brands.
Then when Bridgestone got their act together- there was a bit of fun in Imola in 2005 .. Alonso defended fantastically- the race alone is well worth watching again.
But Brazil 2006 the writing was on the wall for Michelin they were going to struggle for n 2007 so they managed to curtail the contract and leave .. which was a shame as a tyre war is awesome.
Pirelli are just producing the cheapest tyres out and have actually succumbed to pressure from the teams where they bring 3 specs ..under monopoly we only bought 2 compounds and the race teams had to make them work. It is a hard line to walk because the fast cars want hard because they generate down force and temperature to get the grip and the slower cars want soft because they cannot.

*Sainz hasn’t objected, which means Ferrari are happy with the results. Had they objected I suspect the comment would have been accepted*

Click to expand...

No idea what Ferrari's opinion is, but what do they have to gain!? If they formally objected, realistically all they are doing is supporting Mercedes objection, because there is nothing really in it for them. Unless they want Masi out.

I can guarantee you, if Sainz had been fighting for the title, they would have been equally as infuriated. Or, if it potentially caused them to finish further down in the constructors title, they would also be objecting. Even if it was much earlier in the season, there would be a good chance they'd object.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No idea what Ferrari's opinion is, but what do they have to gain!? If they formally objected, realistically all they are doing is supporting Mercedes objection, because there is nothing really in it for them. Unless they want Masi out.

I can guarantee you, if Sainz had been fighting for the title, they would have been equally as infuriated. Or, if it potentially caused them to finish further down in the constructors title, they would also be objecting. Even if it was much earlier in the season, there would be a good chance they'd object.
		
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Yeah they don’t care .. or they would have appealed .. and they are the ones who can force an appeal as they were “affected” Mercedes are just using it as an excuse to overturn the result that they don’t like. That’s all it is, I wonder if Mercedes have had a discreet chat with Ferrari… these things happen so it might be worth waiting for.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			...
Sainz hasn’t objected, which means *Ferrari are happy with the results*. Had they objected I suspect the comment would have been accepted
		
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Not necessarily so! Your later statement 'They don't care' is probably closer to their attitude imo.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not necessarily so!
		
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Alright they did not contest the championship so they are not really “happy “ but they have not raised an appeal… yet, and that speaks volumes.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not necessarily so! Your later statement 'They don't care' is probably closer to their attitude imo.
		
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ferrari aren’t going to complain with nothing in it for them, it would cause a massive ruck with Red bull and the FIA that they just don’t need. If he’d been overtaken as a consequence of the back markers, they might well have complained. 

sainz has made his thoughts clear though, exactly why all cars should have been cleared before restarting (or not).

I suspect most teams care about what happened, but they’re not going to come out publicly about it even if they raise it with the FIA behind closed doors.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Alright they did not contest the championship so they are not really “happy “ but they have not raised an appeal… yet, and that speaks volumes.
		
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Speaks volumes about what? What did Ferrari lose other than a small chance of finishing 2nd which would make no material difference them? Ferrari will be more than happy about the 3rd place.

There are some interesting videos of the teams radio comms during the safety car and after the race. It’s fair to say there isn’t much in the way of support for the decisions Masi made. 

There are very few people from what I’ve seen who think what happened was in any way right. And I see Bernie has come out and said the result was fair. If that’s not a red flag I don’t know what is 😂


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Speaks volumes about what? What did Ferrari lose other than a small chance of finishing 2nd which would make no material difference them? Ferrari will be more than happy about the 3rd place.

There are some interesting videos of the teams radio comms during the safety car and after the race. It’s fair to say there isn’t much in the way of support for the decisions Masi made.

There are very few people from what I’ve seen who think what happened was in any way right. And I see Bernie has come out and said the result was fair. If that’s not a red flag I don’t know what is 😂
		
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Haha - I was going to say the same about Bernie. If ever proof was required that the wrong decision has been made that is it!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Yeah they don’t care .. or they would have appealed .. and they are the ones who can force an appeal as they were “affected” *Mercedes are just using it as an excuse to overturn the result that they don’t like.* That’s all it is, I wonder if Mercedes have had a discreet chat with Ferrari… these things happen so it might be worth waiting for.
		
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What. I don't quite get the context of your sentence. Are you saying Mercedes were not "affected" by Masi's decision?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			What. I don't quite get the context of your sentence. Are you saying Mercedes were not "affected" by Masi's decision?
		
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They don’t have any case for the Sainz situation… and if you were not such a bobble hat you would see the pragmatism in it all .
Lewis lost, give it up, he had no response because he was on a risky long stint .. it’s happened in the past and it will happen again in the future.. 
On that note I am out and leave you all to argue the toss and I will watch if the appeal ever happens ( suspect it won’t as they have an agreement to race.. they will talk about a break away series , like they always do .. but in the end it will be here next year as sure as eggs is eggs)


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## BiMGuy (Dec 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			They don’t have any case for the Sainz situation… and if you were not such a bobble hat you would see the pragmatism in it all .
Lewis lost, give it up, he had no response because he was on a risky long stint .. it’s happened in the past and it will happen again in the future..
On that note I am out and leave you all to argue the toss and I will watch if the appeal ever happens ( suspect it won’t as they have an agreement to race.. they will talk about a break away series , like they always do .. but in the end it will be here next year as sure as eggs is eggs)
		
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See ya 👋


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			See ya 👋
		
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The Safety Car is ready to go!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			They don’t have any case for the Sainz situation… and if you were not such a bobble hat you would see the pragmatism in it all .
Lewis lost, give it up, he had no response because he was on a risky long stint .. it’s happened in the past and it will happen again in the future..
*On that note I am out* and leave you all to argue the toss and I will watch if the appeal ever happens ( suspect it won’t as they have an agreement to race.. they will talk about a break away series , like they always do .. but in the end it will be here next year as sure as eggs is eggs)
		
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The bit in bold is about the only thing you have said that has by full support


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 14, 2021)

Good article on the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59643988

All very sensible stuff. 

There are two things that I think more or less everyone is in agreement with (there are of course always a few with daft / blinkered views...):

1. Verstappen, over the course of the season, is a worthy champion. He has been fast, consistent and determined (shame he undermined himself a bit with his style at Saudi Arabia, but it shouldn't distract from just how good he has been). His winning was no fluke, he'll be at the top end for more or less as long as he wants if Red Bull can provide a suitable car; and

2. Masi completely ballsed it up and this has been embarrassing for F1. I don't personally know anyone, Verstappen fans included, that don't think this was a balls up, even though they might think that Verstappen deserved the title overall and be ecstatic that he won.

In the comments section to various articles, Verstappen (or anti-Hamilton) supporters that state that Mercedes objections is just them being 'salty' or whatever the phrase might be, I can only attribute that to insecurity. If it were the other way round, I could accept that Hamilton was a worthy winner and be chuffed for him, while still being displeased with the decision making that got to that result. For me, the two points of who is the most deserving World Champ and what Masi should have done on Sunday can be treated distinctly as, despite what the media might have liked us to believe in the run up to the Abu Dhabi grand prix and even more so going into the last lap, the Champion is decided over the course of the entire season. F1 seemed to buy into that hype too much and buckled under the pressure.

I hope Hamilton shows them all who is boss next season.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 14, 2021)

My annoyance is with the sour taste left with the ending to what should have been a great season. Even if it had ended behind the safety car. That would have been forgotten in time and everyone would remember one of the best seasons. Even the decisions in Brazil and particularly Qatar would have been forgotten. Even the farce at Spa could have been consigned to history and forgotten about.

Now, Max’s first world championship will be viewed very much like some of Schumachers. Yes his name is on the trophy, but is very much tainted. Max may not be bothered about that now, but I suspect at some point it will become there at the back of his mind. And he will be asked about it quite a bit next season.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			My annoyance is with the sour taste left with the ending to what should have been a great season. Even if it had ended behind the safety car. That would have been forgotten in time and everyone would remember one of the best seasons. Even the decisions in Brazil and particularly Qatar would have been forgotten. Even the farce at Spa could have been consigned to history and forgotten about.

Now, Max’s first world championship will be viewed very much like some of Schumachers. Yes his name is on the trophy, but is very much tainted. Max may not be bothered about that now, but I suspect at some point it will become there at the back of his mind. And he will be asked about it quite a bit next season.
		
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I couldn't agree with you more, although I think you underestimate the amount of whinging that Verstappen fans would be doing now. Not about Sunday's race, but about Silverstone / Monza / Hungary!

There would be some serious crying going on right now.


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## Wabinez (Dec 14, 2021)

Interesting listen…the confusion, and then annoyed drivers as it goes on


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 14, 2021)

Wabinez said:








Interesting listen…the confusion, and then annoyed drivers as it goes on
		
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Interesting, thank you.

Was there an opportunity for Masi to let the unlapped cars go a lap earlier than he did?


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## SteveJay (Dec 14, 2021)




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## BrianM (Dec 14, 2021)

Wabinez said:








Interesting listen…the confusion, and then annoyed drivers as it goes on
		
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Wowsers.
I’m not even a big F1 fan, but sporting integrity has gone out the window with that decisions, even the other drivers know it.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Dec 14, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Interesting, thank you.

Was there an opportunity for Masi to let the unlapped cars go a lap earlier than he did?
		
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Suggestion was that they couldn't earlier due to marshals on the track, and in the audio there is some discussion as to whether it even got properly cleared up before they restarted. I think the comments on those are really telling as to how many people had their race compromised. Max pretty much the only one who didn't and in fact got a significant benefit.


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## Piece (Dec 14, 2021)

Wabinez said:








Interesting listen…the confusion, and then annoyed drivers as it goes on
		
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That was a good listen. Speaks for itself really.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 14, 2021)

I think Hamilton has got some decisions to make before next season. I can't see Verstappen changing how he drives so Hamilton has to decide if he is going to continue with his current strategy of getting out of the way when MV lunges up the inside and runs him wide/off the track, or if he's going to turn in and accept the inevitable collision. If he continues to get out of the way then I think the title next year will go to MV again. If LH decides that he's not going to get out of the way then there could be several collisions between the two and the stewards are going to be busy. If LH does go down this route it might even be worth a small wager on the number two drivers from each team to win the title if LH and MV are going to be taking each other out for several weeks.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think Hamilton has got some decisions to make before next season. I can't see Verstappen changing how he drives so Hamilton has to decide if he is going to continue with his current strategy of getting out of the way when MV lunges up the inside and runs him wide/off the track, or if he's going to turn in and accept the inevitable collision. If he continues to get out of the way then I think the title next year will go to MV again. If LH decides that he's not going to get out of the way then there could be several collisions between the two and the stewards are going to be busy. If LH does go down this route it might even be worth a small wager on the number two drivers from each team to win the title if LH and MV are going to be taking each other out for several weeks.
		
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Depends how close the teams are. If there are 3 or 4 close teams. Max will find himself colliding with the other young guns and Lewis will clean up by staying out of it. 
George certainly wouldn’t have jumped out of Max’s way like Bottas did a few times this year.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 14, 2021)

I am not a big fan but watch the highlights.
What I don’t understand is 
It took LH time and effort to get past the lapped cars between him and MV.
So just because a safety car was out why did they just let them through taking his well earned lead away.
Surely Red Bulls strategy was wrong to be that far back.
Not Mercedes as they had the lead with theirs.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			My annoyance is with the sour taste left with the ending to what should have been a great season. Even if it had ended behind the safety car. That would have been forgotten in time and everyone would remember one of the best seasons. Even the decisions in Brazil and particularly Qatar would have been forgotten. Even the farce at Spa could have been consigned to history and forgotten about.

Now, Max’s first world championship will be viewed very much like some of Schumachers. Yes his name is on the trophy, but is very much tainted. Max may not be bothered about that now, but I suspect at some point it will become there at the back of his mind. And he will be asked about it quite a bit next season.
		
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True. He will desperately want to win another. Otherwise there will be many who constantly remind him about the time Masi's decision won him his only Championship.


ColchesterFC said:



			I think Hamilton has got some decisions to make before next season. I can't see Verstappen changing how he drives so Hamilton has to decide if he is going to continue with his current strategy of getting out of the way when MV lunges up the inside and runs him wide/off the track, or if he's going to turn in and accept the inevitable collision. If he continues to get out of the way then I think the title next year will go to MV again. If LH decides that he's not going to get out of the way then there could be several collisions between the two and the stewards are going to be busy. If LH does go down this route it might even be worth a small wager on the number two drivers from each team to win the title if LH and MV are going to be taking each other out for several weeks.
		
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I would like to think the FIA will take a long hard look at how they deal with the uncertainty in these sorts of incidents. There is potential they'll come down much stronger on the sort of moves Max makes (or any driver doing the same). It is difficult to see Masi being there, but if he is I can imagine there will be some very intense discussions off season.

I don't think Lewis needs to change his style at all. He was effectively World Champion until Masi made his decision. If he was to become more aggressive, it could easily be him getting crashed out of races and getting zero points. I think he'd be better to survive, and hope the stewards wake up if the move on him was too aggressive.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think Hamilton has got some decisions to make before next season. I can't see Verstappen changing how he drives so Hamilton has to decide if he is going to continue with his current strategy of getting out of the way when MV lunges up the inside and runs him wide/off the track, or if he's going to turn in and accept the inevitable collision. If he continues to get out of the way then I think the title next year will go to MV again. If LH decides that he's not going to get out of the way then there could be several collisions between the two and the stewards are going to be busy. If LH does go down this route it might even be worth a small wager on the number two drivers from each team to win the title if LH and MV are going to be taking each other out for several weeks.
		
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I would be surprised if Max is even racing Lewis next year. RB have thrown a big chunk of their budget on continuing to develop this years car, as they knew it was their best chance of winning something. Merc have been busy working on next years, and didn't really invest much in this years, as did Ferrari and Mclaren. Personally I think (and hope) those 3 will be fighting it out, don't ask me to predict which driver though!


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I would be surprised if Max is even racing Lewis next year. RB have thrown a big chunk of their budget on continuing to develop this years car, as they knew it was their best chance of winning something. Merc have been busy working on next years, and didn't really invest much in this years, as did Ferrari and Mclaren. Personally I think (and hope) those 3 will be fighting it out, don't ask me to predict which driver though!

Click to expand...

It’s so hard to know, isn’t it? Got to be a fair chance one team just finds something that works much better than the others in the initial part of the season, hasn’t there? Or will the new regs mean fewer differences between cars?


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## Cherry13 (Dec 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I would be surprised if Max is even racing Lewis next year. RB have thrown a big chunk of their budget on continuing to develop this years car, as they knew it was their best chance of winning something. Merc have been busy working on next years, and didn't really invest much in this years, as did Ferrari and Mclaren. Personally I think (and hope) those 3 will be fighting it out, don't ask me to predict which driver though!

Click to expand...

A few predictions that Aston might fancy their chances early in the season. I would like to see vettel competitive against Max, if he has a chance I think he’d def run him off the road a few times. 
George will certainly be more competitive than bottas and might get his elbows out also, that will be a fun one to watch, he’s certainly no shrinking violet. 

As for Lewis this year, he got out of the way because he had to for much of it.  He couldn’t risk the DNF whereas Max could.  But I think we will continue to see a less combative style from Lewis in the future, he’s still the best over 50/60 laps in the world and I suspect he knows that and will continue to rely on his ability to win races around the pit-stops.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'd bet those rules get modified (for clarification of course) for next year!
		
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On the piece you posted it states that the cars were let through to let the “leaders“ race. That was the justification behind making that decision. Now if memory serves me right. The podium has three places for the first three. Yet the cars between 2nd and third were not allowed to overtake or unload themselves. The argument looks weaker by the day.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2021)

I'd love to hear a recording (if it exists) of the conversation between Massi and Horner when he was begging for one more lap


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Have just been sent this, pretty damming if it’s genuine.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I suspect people will watch the odd full race in the present, then they think back to one or 2 particular highlights that occured many years ago. They forget about all the historic dull moments.

It probably like anything when looking back to the "good old days". People have selective memories, and completely erase all the shocking and dull moments that happened in between the few highlights.
		
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Well no, it's nothing like that at all, I gradually watched less and less as races became duller and duller, that's how I came to my present position of barely watching. Think European Cup v Champions League, old time F1 to modern  F1 is much the same.

But thank you again for your boorish post on my thinking process.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Have just been sent this, pretty damming if it’s genuine.
		
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Honestly, it's Wednesday, let it go


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Honestly, it's Wednesday, let it go
		
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Feel free to ignore my posts 👍

Or maybe the entire topic given that you have said you find F1 boring.


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Have just been sent this, pretty damming if it’s genuine.


View attachment 39960

Click to expand...

Go on, you're going to have to explain what I'm missing


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Go on, you're going to have to explain what I'm missing 

Click to expand...

Safety car called in before the track was clear.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 15, 2021)

I don't think Merc will take it any further. The FIA are never going to overturn the result .


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## greenone (Dec 15, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I don't think Merc will take it any further. The FIA are never going to overturn the result .
		
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FIA won't CAS might. CAS will definitely tell FIA to get their house in order for the future.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I don't think Merc will take it any further. The FIA are never going to overturn the result .
		
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I think they will take it further, not necessarily to overturn the result, but to  see Masi out of a job and tightening up of some rules.


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## Wilson (Dec 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I think they will take it further, not necessarily to overturn the result, but to  see Masi out of a job and tightening up of some rules.
		
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And to possibly get some ££.

I still feel like it was a total fix, to get a new winner, the race should have finished behind the safety car, and Hamilton should be the champion.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Wilson said:



			And to possibly get some ££.

I still feel like it was a total fix, to get a new winner, the race should have finished behind the safety car, and Hamilton should be the champion.
		
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The ££ hasn’t been mentioned much in any discussion. But I wonder what value could be placed on the marketing potential for Mercedes and any endorsements or contract bonuses Lewis may have got for being an 8xWDC? It must run into tens, if not hundreds of millions?

Maybe Mercedes will cut a Ferrari style secret deal with the FIA, to drop it for an extra coupe of teraflops worth of CFD 😁


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 15, 2021)

The thing is, Masi and the Stewards don't even disagree with the fact that the relevant safety car procedure wasn't applied in the normal way. They're just saying that 15.3 gives Masi the power to apply 48.12 and 48.13 as he sees fit.

The other thing that I didn't understand in the decision though, is why Red Bull were making arguments on behalf of the FIA / Masi? The question is whether what Masi did was within the rules or not, not whether Red Bull had breached the rules. Strikes me as a bit odd. In my opinion, the only evidence that should have been presented should have been from Masi, it's up to him to explain his line of thinking in reaching the decision he reached, and for the stewards to decide if that's right and if not what the remedy is.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 15, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Honestly, it's Wednesday, let it go
		
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Ave read your last three posts and you have won this weeks troll award.
Going back,
You state the last 20 years have been a boring procession. Yet you stuck with it. Why?

Then you state you watch it less and less,  But have told a forummer he has not seen some fantastic overtaking manoeuvres.if you have watched it less and less how can you tell him that when you have not watched all the races.

But the last post, let it go it’s Wednesday 😂😂😂😂 for someone who has followed for the last 20 years and given it up after 3 days. Pure comedy genius.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 15, 2021)

greenone said:



			FIA won't CAS might. CAS will definitely tell FIA to get their house in order for the future.
		
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I'm sure they'll carry on behind the scenes , but they want take it further with a public appeal. Max is WC and thats not going to change.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2021)

Imagine if you're playing in the final of your club SCRATCH match-play championship.
You're 3 up with 4 to play but a lightning storm hits.
You have to take shelter for your own safety and it's late and getting dark.
After your opponent complains, the Captain comes out and tells you the storm has mostly passed but because of the dark, you have to move to the 18th and just play a one hole decider. He tells you you are now all square and you have to give your opponent a shot up the last.
Not a perfect comparison but not far off


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Imagine if you're playing in the final of your club SCRATCH match-play championship.
You're 3 up with 4 to play but a lightning storm hits.
You have to take shelter for your own safety and it's late and getting dark.
After your opponent complains, the Captain comes out and tells you the storm has mostly passed but because of the dark, you have to move to the 18th and just play a one hole decider. He tells you you are now all square and you have to give your opponent a shot up the last.
Not a perfect comparison but not far off
		
Click to expand...

Liveroool vs Man City in the CL final, City 3-0 up in injury time then the ref says next goal winner and Liverpool score 😂


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Liveroool vs Man City in the CL final, City 3-0 up in injury time then the ref says next goal winner and Liverpool score 😂
		
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While Man City are still in the changing room....


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Well no, it's nothing like that at all, I gradually watched less and less as races became duller and duller, that's how I came to my present position of barely watching. Think European Cup v Champions League, old time F1 to modern  F1 is much the same.

But thank you again for your boorish post on my thinking process.
		
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That was the opposite thinking to another poster. Maybe it is just you, and you have become more and more miserable as you have got older? It happens. Anyway, I was talking generally, so don't think I was directing my comments straight at you.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Liveroool vs Man City in the CL final, City 3-0 up in injury time then the ref says next goal winner *then awarding a penalty* to Liverpool😂
		
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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Just reading some articles on F1. One that was published last Tuesday (well ahead of the final race) was by Sam Cooper. with the headline:

*The most important man in the climax of the F1's epic title race might not be a driver, but a 42-year-old Australian official*

I wonder how Sam felt on Sunday evening, probably chuffed with his prediction. The sad thing is, events leading up to the event even allowed this to enter people's heads. And, the fact that it turned out the way it did is remarkable. I know it makes for a good Netflix series, although I'd imagine the series itself will be biased enough to not be too critical of the FIA.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I know it makes for a good Netflix series, although I'd imagine the series itself will be biased enough to not be too critical of the FIA.
		
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Don't expect to see too much of Max in this years series...

https://www.si.com/racing/2021/10/2...e-new-season-max-verstappen-not-participating


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The ££ hasn’t been mentioned much in any discussion. But I wonder what value could be placed on the marketing potential for Mercedes and any endorsements or contract bonuses Lewis may have got for being an 8xWDC? It must run into tens, if not hundreds of millions?

Maybe Mercedes will cut a Ferrari style secret deal with the FIA, to drop it for an extra coupe of teraflops worth of CFD 😁
		
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Yes, it is hard to determine what the financial implications may be. I believe Mercedes staff were due to get a £10,000 bonus if Lewis won the Championship, but I believe Mercedes are still going to honour those bonuses.

It looks like Verstappen gets a £12 million bonus for winning, so I'm sure he is pleased, regardless of how tainted the win might be.

Maybe more widespread figures will come out in potential losses as time goes on. I'd imagine if Mercedes continue to appeal, they will want to quote how much money they could have lost to support why they are appealing.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			On the piece you posted it states that the cars were let through to let the “leaders“ race. That was the justification behind making that decision. Now if memory serves me right. The podium has three places for the first three. Yet the cars between 2nd and third were not allowed to overtake or unload themselves. The argument looks weaker by the day.
		
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They, had made the decision to 'let them race'. Had they allowed/required those behind Verstappen to un-lap themselves, the SC would still have been out on the final lap - so the race would have finished 'under SC'. Btw. I'm not saying that was 'the right' decision (I don't believe it was), simply showing their 'logic'.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Don't expect to see too much of Max in this years series...

https://www.si.com/racing/2021/10/2...e-new-season-max-verstappen-not-participating

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Not a big problem, as long as Championship winner Michael Masi is on the show, fans will be happy


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## Piece (Dec 15, 2021)

We've seen and heard Toto and Christian on at MM over the radio. I would imagine the other teams were in his ear (or other persons in race control)?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Piece said:



			We've seen and heard Toto and Christian on at MM over the radio. I would imagine the other teams were in his ear (or other persons in race control)?
		
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They will all have been doing it. Let’s not forget Horner was asking for just one racing lap? And the full Redbull to race director coms has yet to be released.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Piece said:



			We've seen and heard Toto and Christian on at MM over the radio. I would imagine the other teams were in his ear (or other persons in race control)?
		
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Not so sure. If the Championship had already been won before the race, I doubt Christian or Toto would have been in the ear of MM. So, I doubt other teams would have felt the need to enthusiastically try and influence the decision of MM. 

I think Christian was desperately trying to lobby MM into making a completely unprecedented, undocumented decision (which, credit to him, worked). Toto was talking to MM is utter disbelief and despair. I think everyone else was just looking at events unfold in confusion. If Sainz needed to finish first or second to win the championship, or even place Ferrari higher up in the Constructors, I'd imagine they'd also have been passionately in the ear of MM.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Liveroool vs Man City in the CL final, City 3-0 up in injury time then the ref says next goal winner and Liverpool score 😂
		
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Put an asterisk at the side of it to go with the others 😉


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## SaintHacker (Dec 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Have just been sent this, pretty damming if it’s genuine.


View attachment 39960

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If thats true then Masi doesnt have a leg tonstand on and needs removing. I dont care about the result, if the track wasn't clear and he's called the safety car in thats indefensible. What if a lone marshal was still on the track, or a piece of lifting equipment? It doesnt bear thinking about


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			If thats true then Masi doesnt have a leg tonstand on and needs removing. I dont care about the result, if the track wasn't clear and he's called the safety car in thats indefensible. What if a lone marshal was still on the track, or a piece of lifting equipment? It doesnt bear thinking about
		
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Isn't that why the *safety* car doesn't normally come in until the end of the following lap to make sure everything is safe for everyone? The clue is, after all, in the name.

It boils down to Massi didn't want his first F1 chamionship to fizzle out and end behind the SC


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 15, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			If thats true then Masi doesnt have a leg tonstand on and needs removing. I dont care about the result, if the track wasn't clear and he's called the safety car in thats indefensible. What if a lone marshal was still on the track, or a piece of lifting equipment? It doesnt bear thinking about
		
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Those messages could all be simultaneous, couldn't they? Also, aren't those messages to the teams, rather than messages to Masi? Masi might well have received them a little while earlier before uploading to the system?

I don't think there's any chance that Masi releases the lapped cars if the track isn't clear, or calls in the safety car.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			If thats true then Masi doesnt have a leg tonstand on and needs removing. I dont care about the result, if the track wasn't clear and he's called the safety car in thats indefensible. What if a lone marshal was still on the track, or a piece of lifting equipment? It doesnt bear thinking about
		
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It is intriguing if that screenshot is accurate. If it is, then huge concern.

There are plenty of detailed guidelines as to what procedures SHOULD be followed during and after the safety car. Michael Masi did not follow any of these. However, his defence, is that the overriding rule is that the Race Director has the ultimate say, regardless of what the other procedures state. Now, one would imagine this is purely a safety requirement. Michael Masi's job is primarily to keep everyone safe. So, if a specific event unfolded, that has not been imagined or predicted before, that meant the documented procedures might not provide maximum safety, then the Race Director can override these procedures if necessary to increase safety. That would make perfect, logical sense.

However, I am certain this overriding power was never given to the Race Director simply to use if he felt it made a race more exciting. Gave him that power to add drama. Hand him that power to directly influence a different outcome in a Championship Winner. So, it was already a shocking and flimsy defence by the FIA, unless they could argue that Masi's unusual decision was to improve safety. 

However, if he did tell the safety car to come in even before the track was cleared, then that potentially indicated a serious breach in his duties. We've seen how confused all the teams were by his decision. However, you are correct about other people potentially involved. Would marshalling teams have known Michael Masi was going to do this? Or, would they have been equally confused by the messages they were getting? If the track was not yet clear, and Masi announced the safety car would be in on the next lap, then this message would have needed to be communicated to Marshal leaders. I can imagine them desperately trying to get their guys off the track, as the race was about to restart imminently. Never should it be that way round. The marshals should clear the track, relay that message, and then only when Masi is certain the track is clear, he can start thinking about the restart procedure.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It is intriguing if that screenshot is accurate. If it is, then huge concern.

There are plenty of detailed guidelines as to what procedures SHOULD be followed during and after the safety car. Michael Masi did not follow any of these. However, his defence, is that the overriding rule is that the Race Director has the ultimate say, regardless of what the other procedures state. Now, one would imagine this is purely a safety requirement. Michael Masi's job is primarily to keep everyone safe. So, if a specific event unfolded, that has not been imagined or predicted before, that meant the documented procedures might not provide maximum safety, then the Race Director can override these procedures if necessary to increase safety. That would make perfect, logical sense.

However, I am certain this overriding power was never given to the Race Director simply to use if he felt it made a race more exciting. Gave him that power to add drama. Hand him that power to directly influence a different outcome in a Championship Winner. So, it was already a shocking and flimsy defence by the FIA, unless they could argue that Masi's unusual decision was to improve safety.

However, if he did tell the safety car to come in even before the track was cleared, then that potentially indicated a serious breach in his duties. We've seen how confused all the teams were by his decision. However, you are correct about other people potentially involved. Would marshalling teams have known Michael Masi was going to do this? Or, would they have been equally confused by the messages they were getting? If the track was not yet clear, and Masi announced the safety car would be in on the next lap, then this message would have needed to be communicated to Marshal leaders. I can imagine them desperately trying to get their guys off the track, as the race was about to restart imminently. Never should it be that way round. The marshals should clear the track, relay that message, and then only when Masi is certain the track is clear, he can start thinking about the restart procedure.
		
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I just can't believe he would have done that. My opinion is we're looking at the order in which messages were relayed to the teams, not the order in which the information was relayed to Masi.


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## woofers (Dec 15, 2021)

All this “let them race” and “it’s called a motor race” seems to be overlooking the very fact that they were racing, and it was a motor race, and with 5 laps to go the leader was ahead of the next driver by roughly 12 seconds…
Events then transpired to overturn the whole thing. The obvious answer would be to reinstate race positions, and gaps, prior to be the incident when the race is restarted.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I just can't believe he would have done that. My opinion is we're looking at the order in which messages were relayed to the teams, not the order in which the information was relayed to Masi.
		
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True, definitely why I caveated my response with the word "If".

For all I know, that screenshot could have been produced by some guy in his pants on his computer. Or, as you say, he may have had the messages in a different order.

However, if there is any accuracy in it, and as it is time stamped, you'd normally expect these types of things to be fairly accurate. Especially for a multi million dollar organisation related to Formula 1. So, if there is any accuracy in it, and a big IF, then it does not look good for Masi. He was clearly under a lot of pressure at the time. He has made bizarre decisions all season, and has not shown himself to be calm and confident under pressure. Especially when it comes to the last seconds of a Championship decider. I don't think he would have done what he did if Lewis was 1st and Verstappen was, say 6th. So, he was clearly pressured into his decision for a reason other than safety. He might have anticipated that sections of the track were looking to be clear in the next few seconds (whether it be video footage or communication with marshalls in those locations), and therefore committed himself to bringing the safety car in before those messages were officially put in. After all, he couldn't really wait much longer, otherwise there'd have been no time to unlap those 5 cars and bring the safety car in. So, he could well have jumped the gun, panicking that he'd have been criticised if the season ended behind a safety car. Especially with Horner in his ear.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			True, definitely why I caveated my response with the word "If".

For all I know, that screenshot could have been produced by some guy in his pants on his computer. Or, as you say, he may have had the messages in a different order.

However, if there is any accuracy in it, and as it is time stamped, you'd normally expect these types of things to be fairly accurate. Especially for a multi million dollar organisation related to Formula 1. So, if there is any accuracy in it, and a big IF, then it does not look good for Masi. He was clearly under a lot of pressure at the time. He has made bizarre decisions all season, and has not shown himself to be calm and confident under pressure. Especially when it comes to the last seconds of a Championship decider. I don't think he would have done what he did if Lewis was 1st and Verstappen was, say 6th. So, he was clearly pressured into his decision for a reason other than safety. He might have anticipated that sections of the track were looking to be clear in the next few seconds (whether it be video footage or communication with marshalls in those locations), and therefore committed himself to bringing the safety car in before those messages were officially put in. After all, he couldn't really wait much longer, otherwise there'd have been no time to unlap those 5 cars and bring the safety car in. So, he could well have jumped the gun, panicking that he'd have been criticised if the season ended behind a safety car. Especially with Horner in his ear.
		
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Masi has without doubt earned himself plenty of criticism, but I can't imagine there's any chance he has given the safety car in order before the track is clear. 

If this is real, surely it's the transmission of messages to the teams, and they would have gone in order of priority, not necessarily in the order the events actually happened?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Masi has without doubt earned himself plenty of criticism, but I can't imagine there's any chance he has given the safety car in order before the track is clear.

If this is real, surely it's the transmission of messages to the teams, and they would have gone in order of priority, not necessarily in the order the events actually happened?
		
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For his sake, I hope so.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			For his sake, I hope so.
		
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He'd be fired on the spot


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			He'd be fired on the spot
		
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The topic of him being fired is also interesting, seen it discussed in the media, as one would expect. However, if he was sacked, would that be the FIA admitting he did wrong? If Mercedes appealed the result, how could the FIA defend themselves if they actually sacked Masi? That action alone would be an admission he acted in the wrong way.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The topic of him being fired is also interesting, seen it discussed in the media, as one would expect. However, if he was sacked, would that be the FIA admitting he did wrong? If Mercedes appealed the result, how could the FIA defend themselves if they actually sacked Masi? That action alone would be an admission he acted in the wrong way.
		
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Yes, although I expect it would be presented as him resigning from the role, or being moved to something different.


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## Piece (Dec 15, 2021)

I did see a quick interview with good-ole Bernie the other day, with his thoughts on the ending. Jeez, what a <Big Ben>


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Piece said:



			I did see a quick interview with good-ole Bernie the other day, with his thoughts on the ending. Jeez, what a <Big Ben>
		
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I think Bernie is very much a supporter of manufacturing races to make them more "exciting", regardless of safety or sporting implications. Did he not once suggest it would be a good idea to artificially put water on the racetracks to make racing more exciting. If there was a job interview to take over the position of God, I'm pretty sure Bernie would be the first to get his application in


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## Piece (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I think Bernie is very much a supporter of manufacturing races to make them more "exciting", regardless of safety or sporting implications. *Did he not once suggest it would be a good idea to artificially put water on the racetracks to make racing more exciting.* If there was a job interview to take over the position of God, I'm pretty sure Bernie would be the first to get his application in 

Click to expand...

Haha, yes! He'd been watching too many Road Runner cartoons.


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## Dando (Dec 15, 2021)

Piece said:



			Haha, yes! He'd been watching too many Road Runner cartoons.
		
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Not sure a fake tunnel would be welcomed though


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

I see Lewis Hamilton received his knighthood today. Proud moment for him after a tough week.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Putting the rights and wrongs and stuff to one side for a minute...... it is melting my brain that for a few minutes during that safety car MM knew he’d have to make a decision and that whatever he decided would basically decide which driver won the championship. I would not want to have been making that decision. *Although, i’d probably have just stuck with the rules*.... 

Click to expand...

I agree re 'having to make that decision', but the bold bit would likely be affected by how much emphasis the 'we want it to be decided by racing' approach was stressed by teams in the pre-race meeting. It would appear that he had significant 'flexibility' wrt interpreting the rules too!


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## cliveb (Dec 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			For all I know, that screenshot could have been produced by some guy in his pants on his computer.
		
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IF the screen shot is genuine, it surprises me that the timestamps are only accurate to the minute. F1 is a sport that operates to thousandths of a second. At the very least you'd expect the timestamps to include seconds. If it is genuine, then the fact that the timestamps are not very precise probably means that the exact order of the messages isn't a true reflection of the sequence of events and therefore isn't important.


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## Smiffy (Dec 15, 2021)

Piece said:



			I did see a quick interview with good-ole Bernie the other day, with his thoughts on the ending. Jeez, what a <Big Ben>
		
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That dwarf can climb back on the rockery. And as for that prat Marko...he can't even look you straight in the eye, crafty git


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## greenone (Dec 15, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			That dwarf can climb back on the rockery. And as for that prat Marko...he can't even look you straight in the eye, crafty git
		
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Not many can with a glass eye. He does whinge more than Horner though which takes some doing.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Imagine if you're playing in the final of your club SCRATCH match-play championship.
You're 3 up with 4 to play but a lightning storm hits.
You have to take shelter for your own safety and it's late and getting dark.
After your opponent complains, the Captain comes out and tells you the storm has mostly passed but because of the dark, you have to move to the 18th and just play a one hole decider. He tells you you are now all square and you have to give your opponent a shot up the last.
Not a perfect comparison but not far off
		
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That is an even worse analogy than the Gary Lineker one.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			That is an even worse analogy than the Gary Lineker one.
		
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Why?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Liveroool vs Man City in the CL final, City 3-0 up in injury time then the ref says next goal winner and Liverpool score 😂
		
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Man City three up now we know your just being silly.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Some decent respect amongst the drivers


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 15, 2021)

ust seen the Sky interview with Verstappen 

Spoke with a lot of maturity about it all , with a lot of respect for Hamilton and also Hamiltons father.

Was a good interview

Also seems they are going to stop the team principals speaking to Race Control during the race


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## 4LEX (Dec 15, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			That is an even worse analogy than the Gary Lineker one.
		
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What happened to Lewis was even worse than that.


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## 4LEX (Dec 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ust seen the Sky interview with Verstappen

Spoke with a lot of maturity about it all , with a lot of respect for Hamilton and also Hamiltons father.

Was a good interview

Also seems they are going to stop the team principals speaking to Race Control during the race
		
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If he'd rightly lost he'd be singing a different tune. He'll be a slightly better Vettal. Second best to Lewis and when he retires someone else will step up.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ust seen the Sky interview with Verstappen

Spoke with a lot of maturity about it all , with a lot of respect for Hamilton and also Hamiltons father.

Was a good interview
		
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Easy to do when you win.
He wasn't so mature last week when he stormed off in the huff


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2021)

4LEX said:



			If he'd rightly lost he'd be singing a different tune. He'll be a slightly better Vettal. Second best to Lewis and when he retires someone else will step up.
		
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I agree. Easy to say the right things and come across positively when you have won. He wasn't like that during the season and if things don't go his way next year there will be toys out of the box and he will be moaning to his team to get on the radio and get it changed. What happened to best driver wins?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ust seen the Sky interview with Verstappen

Spoke with a lot of maturity about it all , with a lot of respect for Hamilton and also Hamiltons father.

Was a good interview

Also seems they are going to stop the team principals speaking to Race Control during the race
		
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Not sure what else you'd expect? It was Lewis, and Lewis' dad that congratulated Max after having the world title ripped from Lewis' grasp. They showed remarkable maturity and respect. So, it would be bizarre if Max started slagging anybody off after being gifted the title.


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## 4LEX (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree. Easy to say the right things and come across positively when you have won. He wasn't like that during the season and if things don't go his way next year there will be toys out of the box and he will be moaning to his team to get on the radio and get it changed. What happened to best driver wins?
		
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You could hear him on the radio after the first lap and he was already moaning. If he hadn't won he would be moaning forever. I wanted Lewis to win but the biggest sadness he didn't was seeing Max put on this fake nice guy act, instead of revealing his true colours. Lewis will kick him into touch next year. 

Hamilton has SEVEN World titles and today received his overdue knighthood. He'll be the greatest when retires.


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Hamilton has SEVEN World titles and today received his overdue knighthood. He'll be the greatest when retires.
		
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He doesn’t need to win another, he already is the GOAT 🐐


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			He doesn’t need to win another, he already is the GOAT 🐐
		
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Er...Schumacher has 7 titles too, so would have a reasonable to GOAT too!


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Schumacher has 7 titles too, so would have a reasonable to GOAT too!
		
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Less overall wins in more races.
Where’s my mic drop gif 😂


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## BiMGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Less overall wins in more races.
Where’s my mic drop gif 😂
		
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And at least a couple of * next to his championships.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Less overall wins in more races.
Where’s my mic drop gif 😂
		
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Still 7 Championships though - and that (alone) seems to be the metric
How do they measure Tennis? Snooker? Darts? et al.
Never any doubt (well, not to me) had Masi made a different decision though!


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## greenone (Dec 15, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			He doesn’t need to win another, he already is the GOAT 🐐
		
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 God I hate that term. GOHG maybe.


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2021)

greenone said:



			God I hate that term. GOHG maybe.
		
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What the fracking hell does GOHG mean?
At least everyone knows what GOAT stands for 😆


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 15, 2021)

I believe it means “ Greatest of his Generation “


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## Wilson (Dec 16, 2021)

GOAT & GOHG are different categories, I still think Hamilton will win #8 and the retire as both the GOAT and the GOHG.


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## Neilds (Dec 16, 2021)

greenone said:



			God I hate that term. GOHG maybe.
		
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GCOAT - Greatest Car of All Time


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## BiMGuy (Dec 16, 2021)

Neilds said:



			GCOAT - Greatest Car of All Time 

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FW14B


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## Slime (Dec 16, 2021)

This is turning into the comedy/bitterness thread with some of the hilarious posts on here.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Dec 16, 2021)

greenone said:



			God I hate that term. GOHG maybe.
		
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Surely there is no maybe that Hamilton is the greatest of his generation. I know you have to factor in cars and Alonso and Vettel are considered highly but they are not at Hamilton's level.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 16, 2021)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			Surely there is no maybe that Hamilton is the greatest of his generation. I know you have to factor in cars and Alonso and Vettel are considered highly but they are not at Hamilton's level.
		
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It’s not even close. He’s got more world championships and wins than the pair of them combined.


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## Jimaroid (Dec 16, 2021)

Great or GOAT isn't or shouldn't be a single statistic in my opinion. It's not limited to F1 but I think to be named greatest is a more subjective honour that is reserved for the most eminent figure, one that cannot be quantified simply in terms of a number. It has to encompass achievements, attitude, personality, stature, place, and lots of other lovely subjective discourse

Nicklaus is the greatest golfer.
Maradonna is the greatest footballer.
Senna is the greatest F1 driver.

It's not just about titles, although some of the greatest have also won the most (Nicklaus), one does not lead to the other. It's what makes the crown of being great more interesting than just a single statistic.


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## greenone (Dec 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Senna is the greatest F1 driver.
		
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I'd say Fangio personally. To win 24 races in 51 starts in a era where the cars were so fragile is nuts.

Senna is the best ive seen in the time I've watched F1.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Great or GOAT isn't or shouldn't be a single statistic in my opinion. It's not limited to F1 but I think to be named greatest is a more subjective honour that is reserved for the most eminent figure, one that cannot be quantified simply in terms of a number. It has to encompass achievements, attitude, personality, stature, place, and lots of other lovely subjective discourse

Nicklaus is the greatest golfer.
Maradonna is the greatest footballer.
Senna is the greatest F1 driver.

It's not just about titles, although some of the greatest have also won the most (Nicklaus), one does not lead to the other. It's what makes the crown of being great more interesting than just a single statistic.
		
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Tiger is the greatest golfer.
Cristiano Ronaldo is the greatest footballer.
Hamilton is the greatest F1 driver.

As you say, subjective. So, in my mind the answers I've provided are 100% correct. No one else's opinion will change mine, and my opinion will change no one else's.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 16, 2021)

I'd struggle a bit with anyone saying Senna was the greatest, I could certainly see the argument he might have been the fastest or the most talented.

Hamilton for me I think. But I find it impossible to compare across different ages. Death is less of a realistic possibility than it was! Plenty of brilliant drivers that had their careers curtailed.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 16, 2021)

4LEX said:



			What happened to Lewis was even worse than that.
		
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This bit was absolute drivel - "He tells you you are now all square and you have to give your opponent a shot up the last. "

They weren't all square, Lewis had the lead, and there was no handicap awarded against him. Also, the intervening "holes" had input from his team both to his own strategy, and also interfering with the ref. So no, it was a rotten analogy


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 16, 2021)

greenone said:



			I'd say Fangio personally. To win 24 races in 51 starts in a era where the cars were so fragile is nuts.

Senna is the best ive seen in the time I've watched F1.
		
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Senna, Fangio or Clark all have a genuine claim to GOAT, not Lewis, he can fight for 4th with Stewart & Schumacher


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

greenone said:



			FIA won't CAS might. CAS will definitely tell FIA to get their house in order for the future.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59681314


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Senna, Fangio or Clark all have a genuine claim to GOAT, not Lewis, he can fight for 4th with Stewart & Schumacher
		
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Why do Lewis or Schumacher not have genuine claims? Mind you, this is only your opinon, which I am happy not to respect anyway


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I think they will take it further, not necessarily to overturn the result, but to  see Masi out of a job and tightening up of some rules.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59681314


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



*Still 7 Championships though - and that (alone) seems to be the metric*
How do they measure Tennis? Snooker? Darts? et al.
Never any doubt (well, not to me) had Masi made a different decision though!
		
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Not in F1, times have changed greatly, it used to be competitive, now unless you're in the right car, maybe two right cars if you're lucky, then you have no chance. Plus in earlier times you might die, and many did. Clark died, Senna died, how many could either have won? Fangio was 39 by the time they initiated a world championship


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59681314

Click to expand...

Sensible for the benefit of the sport as a whole. Even if Mercedes did appeal, they'd lose at the FIA level, and say they took it further, the remedy at any higher level would surely be financial rather than altering the result of the Championship.

I was surprised that the FIA took responsibility in the way that they did, even if they didn't go as far as admitting fault. It has tarnished the sport when it was on the biggest possible stage.


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## bobmac (Dec 16, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			This bit was absolute drivel - "He tells you you are now all square and you have to give your opponent a shot up the last. "
		
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Were they not side by side at the last lap restart with Max on fresh soft tyres?


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 16, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Not in F1, times have changed greatly, it used to be competitive, now unless you're in the right car, maybe two right cars if you're lucky, then you have no chance. Plus in earlier times you might die, and many did. Clark died, Senna died, how many could either have won? Fangio was 39 by the time they initiated a world championship
		
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All fair points, Hamilton is still the GOAT for me though. I think he's a brilliant role model to go with being a brilliant driver.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Were they not side by side at the last lap restart with Max on fresh soft tyres?
		
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Don't bother. He ignores facts that don't suit his agenda


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## Jimaroid (Dec 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As you say, subjective. So, in my mind the answers I've provided are 100% correct. No one else's opinion will change mine, and my opinion will change no one else's.
		
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I totally agree. But yours are wrong.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Don't bother. He ignores facts that don't suit his agenda
		
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For someone not interested in F1 he’s got a lot to say on the subject.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 16, 2021)

Susie Wolff nails it here....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471400042527346689


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Not in F1, times have changed greatly, it used to be competitive, now unless you're in the right car, maybe two right cars if you're lucky, then you have no chance. Plus in earlier times you might die, and many did. Clark died, Senna died, how many could either have won? Fangio was 39 by the time they initiated a world championship
		
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IYO!
But the metric is still there!
Though I accept your point about Fangio


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Susie Wolff nails it here....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471400042527346689

Click to expand...

Somehow, I get the feeling she's not a current fan of Masi 
Might be a touch of 'personal bias' in there though!


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			For someone not interested in F1 who barely watches F1 anymore he’s got a lot to say on the subject.
		
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Fixed that for you.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 16, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Susie Wolff nails it here....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471400042527346689

Click to expand...

It’s interesting that she tweeted that a short time before the official Mercedes statement.

I wonder what kind of deal has been cut for Merc to drop the appeal?


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Were they not side by side at the last lap restart with Max on fresh soft tyres?
		
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No they weren't, and why miss the rest of my point?


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s interesting that she tweeted that a short time before the official Mercedes statement.

I wonder what kind of deal has been cut for Merc to drop the appeal?
		
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There is no deal why would there be . Merc were never going to push on with it. Especially as SLH didn't want them to. The FIA are going to conduct Thier own review of what happened, they have to really as the fallout has been so bad.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			No they weren't, and why miss the rest of my point?
		
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Give it a rest or get a room with Bob and swango. Max is WC and we move on to big rims and ground effect.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			There is no deal why would there be . Merc were never going to push on with it. Especially as SLH didn't want them to. The FIA are going to conduct Thier own review of what happened, they have to really as the fallout has been so bad.
		
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Mercedes will have been insisting on certain issues being addressed to prevent a situation like Sunday happening again.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Mercedes will have been insisting on certain issues being addressed to prevent a situation like Sunday happening again.
		
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And the FIA had ready made a statement as such.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
Also seems they are going to stop the team principals speaking to Race Control during the race
		
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Could be a good thing, though could also be something of a knee-jerk reaction.
Worth assessing reasons for/against it (team principals being able to make suggestions) and why it as allowed/provided in the first place.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s interesting that she tweeted that a short time before the official Mercedes statement.

I wonder what kind of deal has been cut for Merc to drop the appeal?
		
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I wanted Mercedes to appeal. Not to snatch the title of Max and give it to Lewis. That would have been unfair on Max for something he was not at fault for. And, it wouldn't be how Hamilton would want to he given the title. 

I wanted them to appeal so that the FIA had to be held accountable. However, within this breaking news, it appears the FIA are willing to take responsibility, and that things were not handled the way they should have been. So, that is probably for the best. We know what happened on Sunday was wrong, even if some can't bring themselves to admit it (as Susie said)


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## Cherry13 (Dec 16, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Sensible for the benefit of the sport as a whole. Even if Mercedes did appeal, they'd lose at the FIA level, and say they took it further, the remedy at any higher level would surely be financial rather than altering the result of the Championship.

I was surprised that the FIA took responsibility in the way that they did, even if they didn't go as far as admitting fault. It has tarnished the sport when it was on the biggest possible stage.
		
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I think this paves the way for Masi to either step down entirely or be demoted.  They are already restructuring the old Charlie Whiting role and putting in more of a team around Masi, so suspect he will either step down or move away from race day operations. 

As you mention, it’s a shame this has been the fallout but now time to move on.


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## greenone (Dec 16, 2021)

Cherry13 said:



			I think this paves the way for Masi to either step down entirely or be demoted.  They are already restructuring the old Charlie Whiting role and putting in more of a team around Masi, so suspect he will either step down or move away from race day operations.

As you mention, it’s a shame this has been the fallout but now time to move on.
		
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Nobody has had the Charlie whiting role. He had may different hats. Masi only took the race director role and that's the problem, Charlie knew the rules and understood the spirt in which they where written... He wrote them, Masi didn't.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I wanted Mercedes to appeal. Not to snatch the title of Max and give it to Lewis. That would have been unfair on Max for something he was not at fault for. And, it wouldn't be how Hamilton would want to he given the title.

I wanted them to appeal so that the FIA had to be held accountable. However, within this breaking news, it appears the FIA are willing to take responsibility, and that things were not handled the way they should have been. So, that is probably for the best. We know what happened on Sunday was wrong, even if some can't bring themselves to admit it (as Susie said)
		
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I don’t think there are any (sensible) people that want the result overturned. I know I don’t. I would be astonished if Lewis Hamilton did, that just wouldn’t be the right outcome now.

What I want though, is the FIA investigation / report and recommendations to be public. I feel, as a fan, I need that so I know when I tune in come March that we won’t see this happen again. Very much as Susie Wolff says.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Somehow, I get the feeling she's not a current fan of Masi 
Might be a touch of 'personal bias' in there though!
		
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I don’t really see any bias. Is there anyone that thinks what Masi did was right?! 

I can understand Verstappen fans thinking that he is the most deserving winner of the title looking at the season as a whole, but they can think that whilst also recognising Masi making a unilateral decision on how the rules should apply, in a way that they’ve never been applied before, is not right.

I would have been gutted had Lewis lost the Championship regardless of the circumstances, but the way it happened is beyond belief.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I don’t think there are any (sensible) people that want the result overturned. I know I don’t. I would be astonished if Lewis Hamilton did, that just wouldn’t be the right outcome now.

What I want though, is the FIA investigation / report and recommendations to be public. I feel, as a fan, I need that so I know when I tune in come March that we won’t see this happen again. Very much as Susie Wolff says.
		
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I think fans will almost definitely need to be informed. After all, there appears to be an agreement that Sunday was very damaging for F1's reputation. So, providing a fairly open investigation is surely what is required for fans to get some faith back.


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## Captainron (Dec 16, 2021)

Senna is the best by far in my eyes


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Senna is the best by far in my eyes
		
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Poo inducing!


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I think fans will almost definitely need to be informed. After all, there appears to be an agreement that Sunday was very damaging for F1's reputation. So, providing a fairly open investigation is surely what is required for fans to get some faith back.
		
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I suspect that while some of that might happen, it won't be 'open' and fans will align themselves with suggestions that(appear to) help their own 'favourite(s)'. Basically I'd guess that 90+% favour/support specific teams/drivers.


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## Captainron (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Poo inducing!
		
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He was the best out and out racer going. Right on the limit of everything. He drove like he wasn’t afraid of death. Proper proper racer for me


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

Captainron said:



			He was the best out and out racer going. Right on the limit of everything. He drove like he wasn’t afraid of death. Proper proper racer for me
		
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You missed my (rather obtuse I admit) point.
I was tempted to post 'Whoosh' here too just to continue the charade/irrelevance.
Btw. I agree with what you stated above.


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## Captainron (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			You missed my (rather obtuse I admit) point.
I was tempted to post 'Whoosh' here too just to continue the charade/irrelevance.
Btw. I agree with what you stated above.
		
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Fair enough


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## Smiffy (Dec 16, 2021)

Lauda has got to be up there somewhere. Superb racer and not dirty in the slightest. Senna was capable of dirty tricks. Great racer but not in the same mould as Lauda.


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## bobmac (Dec 16, 2021)

Have I got this wrong?
The FIA will fine Lewis Hamilton if he doesn't attend the end of season bash in Paris to celebrate Max's win.
If true, I'd be surprised if Lewis doesn't tell them where to stick it and retire tomorrow


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## greenone (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Have I got this wrong?
The FIA will fine Lewis Hamilton if he doesn't attend the end of season bash in Paris to celebrate Max's win.
If true, I'd be surprised if Lewis doesn't tell them where to stick it and retire tomorrow
		
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Top 3 are supposed to attend. Been a rule for years.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2021)

greenone said:



			Top 3 are supposed to attend. Been a rule for years.
		
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The FIA have shown rules are there to be broken


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## Captainron (Dec 16, 2021)

Hamilton will be there. If he’s not then he will be vilified.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 16, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Hamilton will be there. If he’s not then he will be vilified.
		
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By who? Toto said this afternoon he and Lewis would not be going.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Have I got this wrong?
The FIA will fine Lewis Hamilton if he doesn't attend the end of season bash in Paris to celebrate Max's win.
If true, I'd be surprised if Lewis doesn't tell them where to stick it and retire tomorrow
		
Click to expand...

Entire suggestion is irrelevant!
He'll be there!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Entire suggestion is irrelevant!
He'll be there!
		
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Is he allowed to attend with the change in rules for people from UK travelling to France? Not sure when those rules come into effect and whether they'll affect Hamilton or not - is he in the UK or somewhere abroad? And is it all non-EU citizens that the ban affects so if Hamilton is outside of the EU then he might not be allowed to attend?


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is he allowed to attend with the change in rules for people from UK travelling to France? Not sure when those rules come into effect and whether they'll affect Hamilton or not - is he in the UK or somewhere abroad? And is it all non-EU citizens that the ban affects so if Hamilton is outside of the EU then he might not be allowed to attend?
		
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Ha ha! Maybe not then!
Probably 'at home' in Monaco.
FWIW, any 'fine' would be pretty trivial for him anyway - and likely paid by Mercedes from the savings made by not sending the car!


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## Captainron (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			By who? Toto said this afternoon he and Lewis would not be going.
		
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Not showing up to the event will make them look pretty damn petty in the eyes of many. Losing the championship was unlucky for them but they should still attend the event.


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Not showing up to the event will make them look pretty damn petty in the eyes of many. Losing the championship was unlucky for them but they should still attend the event.
		
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Hamilton got plenty of plaudits for the graceful way he congratulated Verstappen. Not going to the end of season bash would see him burn a lot of the goodwill he earned.

Can’t see him not going, and think the threat of not attending is just posturing to keep the FIA ‘honest’ in resolving the issues.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 16, 2021)

greenone said:



			Top 3 are supposed to attend. Been a rule for years.
		
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Shame they never let the top 3 race in the last race. When the safety car went in ☹️😁


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Not showing up to the event will make them look pretty damn petty in the eyes of many. Losing the championship was unlucky for them but they should still attend the event.
		
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To be honest, Hamilton could turn up with a big smile on his face, save some starving puppies, and he'd still be condemned by some. 

If he doesn't turn up, there will also be many that support that decision. But, Mercedes have been in constant dialogue with FIA since Sunday, and none of us know where they are in those discussions. FIA will be happy they will not be pursuing their appeal, but I'm sure there are costs to that on the FIA's part. One might be them having to accept Mercedes will not be there tomorrow? The other being them taking responsibility for the farce on Sunday.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Hamilton got plenty of plaudits for the graceful way he congratulated Verstappen. Not going to the end of season bash would see him burn a lot of the goodwill he earned.

Can’t see him not going, and think the threat of not attending is just posturing to keep the FIA ‘honest’ in resolving the issues.
		
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SLH and wolf have publicly said they will not be attending. James Allinson will be there on behalf of Mercedes. 
Well done to both for not going and they have lots of support too.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			By who? Toto said this afternoon he and Lewis would not be going.
		
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Wouldn't that be 'deliberately breaking rules'? Or is that the intention/message?


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## Beezerk (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Wouldn't that be 'deliberately breaking rules'? Or is that the intention/message?
		
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Maybe they will let 4th 5th 6th and 7th place go to the awards but not 8th and 9th 👀


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 16, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Not showing up to the event will make them look pretty damn petty in the eyes of many. Losing the championship was unlucky for them but they should still attend the event.
		
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i disagree. Let Verstappen have his night without distraction of the drama of Sunday. If Hamilton was there, all the questions would be about the end of that race.

If they were asking Hamilton what he thought, what could he possibly say? Much better to let Verstappen have his night. 

I must say though, I find his comments hard to stomach as I read them now. The way Hamilton won his first title is not comparable 😂


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## cliveb (Dec 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			By who? Toto said this afternoon he and Lewis would not be going.
		
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BBC have reported that Toto and Lewis did not attend.


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## Piece (Dec 17, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			i disagree. Let Verstappen have his night without distraction of the drama of Sunday. If Hamilton was there, all the questions would be about the end of that race.

If they were asking Hamilton what he thought, what could he possibly say? Much better to let Verstappen have his night.

I must say though, I find his comments hard to stomach as I read them now. The way Hamilton won his first title is not comparable 😂
		
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Agree. With Lewis and Toto not attending, this reinforces the need for the FIA to act next season. If they did attend it would be a distraction and also water-down Mercedes' race stance.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 17, 2021)

Do half the people in this thread even follow F1? Or just come in for an argument 😅


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Do half the people in this thread even follow F1? Or just come in for an argument 😅
		
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Yes!


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Do half the people in this thread even follow F1? Or just come in for an argument 😅
		
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Says the man who thought Lewis and Max *weren't* side by side for the last lap restart




Wasn't there a suggestion a while back that Toto was thinking about calling it a day?


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## theoneandonly (Dec 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Says the man who thought Lewis and Max *weren't* side by side for the last lap restart

View attachment 40003


Wasn't there a suggestion a while back that Toto was thinking about calling it a day?
		
Click to expand...

I think you have me confused with someone else guv. Or are you looking for an argument 😅😅


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I think you have me confused with someone else guv. Or are you looking for an argument 😅😅
		
Click to expand...

Oops, humble apologies.
I admit, I was wrong and will accept any and all consequences.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Says the man who thought Lewis and Max *weren't* side by side for the last lap restart

View attachment 40003


...
		
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Oh dear; more sour grapes?
That pic was 'taken out of context'! That's not actually 'side by side' imo, though certainly 'alongside'. And there were times where MV was actually 'closer' than that too. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...1-world-championship.1718951895219638541.html
LH, as leader, had 'control' of/at the restart and MV was definitely behind when LH floored it 'at the restart'!


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## greenone (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			More sour grapes?
That pic was 'taken out of context'! That's not actually 'side by side' imo, though certainly 'alongside'. And there were times where MV was actually 'closer' than that too. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...1-world-championship.1718951895219638541.html
LH, as leader, had 'control' of/at the restart and MV was definitely behind when LH floored it to restart!
		
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There was a point when he was in front, but it got swept under the carpet. Plenty of precidents of penalties for the same thing.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

greenone said:



			There was a point when he was in front, but it got swept under the carpet. Plenty of precidents of penalties for the same thing.
		
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Not that I saw - that LH hadn't 'manufactured'. In the above vid, there was point almost immediately before LH floored it where it looked iffy, but camera angle meant it was inconclusive.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 17, 2021)

greenone said:



			There was a point when he was in front, but it got swept under the carpet. Plenty of precidents of penalties for the same thing.
		
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To be fair, the officials didn't want to penalise Max, in case they were accused of having a hand in determing the title winner...


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## greenone (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not that I saw - that LH hadn't 'manufactured'. In the above vid, there was point almost immediately before LH floored it where it looked iffy, but camera angle meant it was inconclusive.
		
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 It's in the stewards dismissal of the protests.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not that I saw - that LH hadn't 'manufactured'. In the above vid, there was point almost immediately before LH floored it where it looked iffy, but camera angle meant it was inconclusive.
		
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The stewards confirmed that Max was in front of Lewis during the safety car period. But not enough to warrant a penalty as it turned out.


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The stewards confirmed that Max was in front of Lewis during the safety car period. But not enough to warrant a penalty as it turned out.
		
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The point was Massi removed Lewis's 12 second lead which he had when the accident happened so made them ''all square'' in my analogy


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## Smiffy (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not that I saw - that LH hadn't 'manufactured'. In the above vid, there was point almost immediately before LH floored it where it looked iffy, but camera angle meant it was inconclusive.
		
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Verstappen was definitely ahead of Hamilton for a very short period of time. Briefly admittedly, but against the rules. No iffy camera angles required.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The stewards confirmed that Max was in front of Lewis during the safety car period. But not enough to warrant a penalty as it turned out.
		
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What was mentioned by one of the retired drivers in the commentary team is that Verstappen stopped Hamilton from following the clean line on the track, and meant the Hamilton picked up dirt on his tyres. Might be insignificant but might also be worth considering.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The point was Massi removed Lewis's 12 second lead which he had when the accident happened so made them ''all square'' in my analogy
		
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Every car loses the advantage they’ve built up when the safety car is deployed. Personally I’d like to the gapping maintained as it is when the virtual safety car is deployed.

What I don’t understand is why the 5 cars between Hamilton and Verstappen were allowed to pass.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			What was mentioned by one of the retired drivers in the commentary team is that Verstappen stopped Hamilton from following the clean line on the track, and meant the Hamilton picked up dirt on his tyres. Might be insignificant but might also be worth considering.
		
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All part of the 'near end of SC period' tactics. As LH was, supposedly, in control of events at that stage, any 'poor tactics' are likely down to him - at least imo!


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## woofers (Dec 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Every car loses the advantage they’ve built up when the safety car is deployed. Personally I’d like to the gapping maintained as it is when the virtual safety car is deployed.
		
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Totally agree, there must be a way of doing this, they have timings all round the place and for all sorts of things to 1/100ths of a second.
If they can’t do that and need to bunch up, another way of doing it would be to say that the driver behind by x seconds when the safety car was deployed needs to finish more than x seconds in front when the race finishes, e.g Max needed to beat Lewis by more than 12 seconds, no one would argue with that.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Every car loses the advantage they’ve built up when the safety car is deployed. Personally I’d like to the gapping maintained as it is when the virtual safety car is deployed....
		
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I agree!


Hobbit said:



			What I don’t understand is why the 5 cars between Hamilton and Verstappen were allowed to pass.
		
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Result would have been a foregone conclusion - as MV would not have got near LH in the 1 lap (?) left, so no actual 'racing' would have occurred. The fact that result was (almost certainly) a different result foregone conclusion - but with 'racing' involved - was totally what all the controversy was/is about.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

woofers said:



			Totally agree, there must be a way of doing this, they have timings all round the place and for all sorts of things to 1/100ths of a second.
If they can’t do that and need to bunch up, another way of doing it would be to say that the driver behind by x seconds when the safety car was deployed needs to finish more than x seconds in front when the race finishes, e.g Max needed to beat Lewis by more than 12 seconds, no one would argue with that.
		
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Pretty much impossible to implement imo - maybe not in this case, but certainly when there is more than 1 SC period!
Full SC does have 1 benefit - which, as a safety one is quite important. By bunching the field up, there's a larger time gap for the damage, that triggered the SC, to be cleared.


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## greenone (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Pretty much impossible to implement imo - maybe not in this case, but certainly when there is more than 1 SC period!
Full SC does have 1 benefit - which, as a safety one is quite important. By bunching the field up, there's a larger time gap for the damage, that triggered the SC, to be cleared.
		
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Which is why people saying the unlapping should have happened a lap earlier is spurious, because the released cars are going race pace to get back in the end of the pack. As it was according to the leaked photo the safety car in message was released before the track was clear IE Marshalls on track, imagine the potential carnage if the back markers are charging round to get back onto the pack whilst the Marshalls are still out cleaning up the fire fighting foam.


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2021)

greenone said:



			Which is why people saying the unlapping should have happened a lap earlier is spurious, because the released cars are going race pace to get back in the end of the pack. As it was according to the leaked photo the safety car in message was released before the track was clear IE Marshalls on track, imagine the potential carnage if the back markers are charging round to get back onto the pack whilst the Marshalls are still out cleaning up the fire fighting foam.
		
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And that is why the safety car always stays out for an extra lap, to make sure everyone is safe. Except that didn't happen.
If it did stay out for another lap like it always does, the laps run out, and Lewis wins behind the safety car which is what should have happened.


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## Imurg (Dec 17, 2021)

Why, when the SC comes out,  don't the cars just stay in the order that they are on the track?
So if the SC comes out in front of the 18th place driver why don't they just keep the order..?
That would mean the leaders would likely have many back markers to overtake...
I'm sure there's a good reason why this doesn't happen but it would keep things fairer IMO


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Why, when the SC comes out,  don't the cars just stay in the order that they are on the track?
So if the SC comes out in front of the 18th place driver why don't they just keep the order..?
That would mean the leaders would likely have many back markers to overtake...
I'm sure there's a good reason why this doesn't happen but it would keep things fairer IMO
		
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Or when an accident happens, all cars go back to the pits, wait until the track is cleared and then each car is released in order and after the relevant time gap. That way, the race continues with all cars in the same order and the same time gap with no laps lost.


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## Whereditgo (Dec 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Or when an accident happens, all cars go back to the pits, wait until the track is cleared and then each car is released in order and after the relevant time gap. That way, the race continues with all cars in the same order and the same time gap with no laps lost.
		
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I thought about this one myself, but possibly the cars overheating would be a problem, with not enough room for each pit to have two cars with cooling fans attached at the same time?


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## greenone (Dec 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Why, when the SC comes out,  don't the cars just stay in the order that they are on the track?
So if the SC comes out in front of the 18th place driver why don't they just keep the order..?
That would mean the leaders would likely have many back markers to overtake...
I'm sure there's a good reason why this doesn't happen but it would keep things fairer IMO
		
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Starts getting messy with cars on different laps,a race finishes behind the safety car which picks up the cars but the leader as at the back of the pack. Last lap the chequered flag waves for the leader but then the safety car and rest of the pack have to go around again to finish the race.


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## Whereditgo (Dec 17, 2021)

greenone said:



			Senna is the best ive seen in the time I've watched F1.
		
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As with all sports it's pretty much impossible to compare across era's.

I too would rank Senna as No1 in my time. Senna and Shumacher both won titles when they weren't in the best car, I don't think that is likely to happen any more with there being such an emphasis on technology and set-up.


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			I thought about this one myself, but possibly the cars overheating would be a problem, with not enough room for each pit to have two cars with cooling fans attached at the same time?
		
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But at least it would be the same for everyone


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## Captainron (Dec 17, 2021)

See that Hamilton might be in a bit of bother for missing the event. 

Mercedes should have been there irrespective of how they felt. This is just going to make them look like petty bad losers. They should have turned up. Given it the old “smile and wave boys” and had a night out. No drama


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## theoneandonly (Dec 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			See that Hamilton might be in a bit of bother for missing the event.

Mercedes should have been there irrespective of how they felt. This is just going to make them look like petty bad losers. They should have turned up. Given it the old “smile and wave boys” and had a night out. No drama
		
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Yes you've said this already, it's not a universal view. I don't blame Wolff or SLH for not going and applaud them for it.
Missing this is no different to prem bosses etc not showing for press conferences and the like.
He'll take a small fine and move on.
Mercedes were there though.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			See that Hamilton might be in a bit of bother for missing the event.

Mercedes should have been there irrespective of how they felt. This is just going to make them look like petty bad losers. They should have turned up. Given it the old “smile and wave boys” and had a night out. No drama
		
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Mercedes WERE there - to pick up their (8th) Constructors win
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...structors-trophies.HcfvZtilLGhIwSYBw8GSe.html

Btw. Shouldn't it be 'Sir Lewis' since his investiture?


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Mercedes WERE there - to pick up their (8th) Constructors win
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...structors-trophies.HcfvZtilLGhIwSYBw8GSe.html

*Btw. Shouldn't it be 'Sir Lewis' since his investiture?* 

Click to expand...

No.


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## Captainron (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Mercedes WERE there - to pick up their (8th) Constructors win
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...structors-trophies.HcfvZtilLGhIwSYBw8GSe.html

Btw. Shouldn't it be 'Sir Lewis' since his investiture? 

Click to expand...

Meh. Knighted too early. His career is still a few years away from ending. I am not for knighthoods until they’re done with the day job for sportspeople


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## BiMGuy (Dec 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Meh. Knighted too early. His career is still a few years away from ending. I am not for knighthoods until they’re done with the day job for sportspeople
		
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I’ve never heard anyone say that about Andy Murray. Who was knighted for achieving far less.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve never heard anyone say that about Andy Murray. Who was knighted for achieving far less.
		
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Andy Murray won three slams and winning Wimbledon for the first time in decades as a Brit but I don’t know how you can compare cross sports 

But no one should be knighted as a sports star when still playing said sport - and that includes the likes of Wiggins , Murray etc


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## Swango1980 (Dec 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Andy Murray won three slams and winning Wimbledon for the first time in decades as a Brit but I don’t know how you can compare cross sports

But no one should be knighted as a sports star when still playing said sport - and that includes the likes of Wiggins , Murray etc
		
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So? Hamilton achieved something only one other driver in history had achieved. Murray has never even been in the top 3 tennis players in his own era.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			No.
		
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Why not?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So? Hamilton achieved something only one other driver in history had achieved. Murray has never even been in the top 3 tennis players in his own era.
		
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Well done Hamilton - doesn’t diminish Murray’s achievements and it’s ridiculous to try and compare the two


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## SaintHacker (Dec 17, 2021)

Personally i dont thimk anyone should get knighted just for being good at sport, its their job at the end of the day. Am I going to get knighted for being good at driving coaches? Bit bloody unlikely...


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But no one should be knighted as a sports star when still playing said sport - and that includes the likes of Wiggins , Murray etc
		
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Why? If the achievement is worthy of such an honour what difference does it make. Not exactly going to make a difference to their performance


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Personally i dont thimk anyone should get knighted just for being good at sport, its their job at the end of the day. Am I going to get knighted for being good at driving coaches? Bit bloody unlikely...
		
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You might if your coach can beat Vettel.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Meh. Knighted too early. His career is still a few years away from ending. I am not for knighthoods until they’re done with the day job for sportspeople
		
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Don't his achievements to date mean he already deserves it? It's a reward for achievements - not 'career' achievements. No different to knighthoods in other 'occuptaions'
I'm certainly OK with it (already).


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## Swango1980 (Dec 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well done Hamilton - doesn’t diminish Murray’s achievements and it’s ridiculous to try and compare the two
		
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I never said it did, winning Wimbledon is amazing. But, you were replying directly to a post that was comparing how people react to Murray compared to Hamilton about their knighthood. Your response seemed to be very defensive of Murray, hence I assumed you were defending his knighthood.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I never said it did, winning Wimbledon is amazing. But, you were replying directly to a post that was comparing how people react to Murray compared to Hamilton about their knighthood. Your response seemed to be very defensive of Murray, hence I assumed you were defending his knighthood.
		
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My reaction is the same to both hence why is said 

*But no one should be knighted as a sports star when still playing said sport - and that includes the likes of Wiggins , Murray etc*
🙄


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
But no one should be knighted as a sports star when still playing said sport - and that includes the likes of Wiggins , Murray etc
		
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If they deserve a knight/damehood (at the end of their career)  for the achievements up to any point, then they deserve a knighthood AT that point!
I differentiate between the above achievements (such as Murray's and Hamilton's) and the 'end of career reward' for the overall career..
Classic example - at least for a Kiwi....Should Ed Hillary have had to wait until 'retirement' from climbing mountains before being knighted? Absolutely not! There is, however, a difference between specific outstanding achievement(s) and 'career' ones - like (more Kiwi perspective) achievements in Rugby or Netball.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			You might if your coach can beat Vettel.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't be able to catch him but i definitely know who would win in a collision!🤣


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Wouldn't be able to catch him but i definitely know who would win in a collision!🤣
		
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That could affect your downforce!
What’s your best time for four wheels and tyres pit stop?


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Personally i dont thimk anyone should get knighted just for being good at sport, its their job at the end of the day. Am I going to get knighted for being good at driving coaches? Bit bloody unlikely...
		
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There ARE 'peoples awards' - for outstanding service as nominated by 'communities', though I'm not sure the awards extend to knighthoods.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			...
What’s your best time for four wheels and tyres pit stop?

Click to expand...

Only 4? Not much of a bus then!


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 17, 2021)

Fantastic trolling from the FIA today. I loved the “rules are rules” comment in relation to lewis not going to the awards dinner 😂

Couldn’t have chosen more ridiculous language in the circumstances!

I wonder if he was dared to say it by Horner? 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Personally i dont thimk anyone should get knighted just for being good at sport, its their job at the end of the day. Am I going to get knighted for being good at driving coaches? Bit bloody unlikely...
		
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I'd knight any coach driver who can manage central Paris and all of the tourist spots 🤣. Bloomin amazing 👏


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## woofers (Dec 17, 2021)

Maybe a separate ‘honours thread’ is warranted ?

Meantime, back in F1, it is reported that Lewis is disillusioned with things and considering his options for next year. Maybe some time away would be beneficial, although I suspect this would be interpreted as sulking and “toys out of pram“ stuff. If he took a year out, what would be the impact on F1, and on his standing ?


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Personally i dont thimk anyone should get knighted just for being good at sport, its their job at the end of the day. Am I going to get knighted for being good at driving coaches? Bit bloody unlikely...
		
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As is running a Bank, Supermarket chain or many other 'trades'!
Somewhat different, imo, if started from zilch and used their talent to have built up a Bank, Supermarket chain...or Sporting Career!


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

woofers said:



			Maybe a separate ‘honours thread’ is warranted ?

Meantime, back in F1, it is reported that Lewis is disillusioned with things and considering his options for next year. Maybe some time away would be beneficial, although I suspect this would be interpreted as sulking and “toys out of pram“ stuff. If he took a year out, what would be the impact on F1, and on his standing ?
		
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There's no reason for him to be disillusioned! He won it/it got 'stolen' from him, so more incentive, imo, to win it next year! He's allowed to pseudo-sulk in his mansion in his tax-free haven, with his zillions of earnings etc until next season though! 
Can you tell I'm a bit envious?


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Why not?
		
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He's doing what he gets paid gazillions for.
No sportsman should be knighted just for doing their job fantastically well.


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So? Hamilton achieved something only one other driver in history had achieved. Murray has never even been in the top 3 tennis players in his own era.
		
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Murray was world ranked No.1 .......................... in his own era.
Hamilton uses machinery, the best there is, Murray used a tennis raquet that you or I could use.
Subtle difference.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			He's doing what he gets paid gazillions for.
No sportsman should be knighted just for doing their job fantastically well.
		
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Should a (top) banker? Lawyer? Politician?


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Should a (top) banker?
		
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Should a banker what?


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2021)




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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Should a banker what?
		
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You are either avoiding the question or are too stupid to understand it!
Your choice as to which one, but I believe I've made my point!


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			You are either avoiding the question or are too stupid to understand it!
Your choice as to which one, but I believe I'v made my point!
		
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So, they are correct in their assumptions, and here was me giving someone the benefit of the doubt!

Oh, and I can't believe anyone would ask whether someone thinks bankers should possibly get knighthoods just for doing their job, but there's always one!
Oh, nice edit.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Slime said:




So, they are correct in their assumptions, and here was me giving someone the benefit of the doubt!
...
		
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I'll have a small one of what you appear to be on thanks! 



Slime said:



			...
Oh, and I can't believe anyone would ask whether someone thinks bankers should possibly get knighthoods just for doing their job, but there's always one!
		
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Bankers certainly get knighted during their career. My old 'top boss' (I was nowhere near his level) got a gong that was subsequently withdrawn. Another equivalent boss of a bank I worked at was recently knighted! And there's certainly others!
Should Sir Philip Green have been knighted during his rather chequered career?

I have/make no opinion either way as to whether any of the above should/shouldn't have happened!


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2021)

Apparently, Lewis and Toto *won't be fined* for not attending the Max love-in the 'rub your nose in it party' celebration of all the brilliant decisions made my Massi this season  end of season prize giving.

Another rule ignored changed at the discretion of the FIA.
I wouldn't be surprised if both of them call it a day and retire healthy and wealthy.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			...Murray has never even been in the top 3 tennis players in his own era.
		
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Utter Twaddle! 
He was never out of 'Top3' in 2016 - started #2; ended #1! 2015 wasn't bad either! #3 or #2 from early April to end of Year!


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## theoneandonly (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Utter Twaddle! He was never out of 'Top3' in 2016 - started #2; ended #1! 2015 wasn't bad either! #3 or #2 from early April to end of Year!
		
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I don't think he meant world ranking.  More that there were better players ahead of him. Like Nadal, Federer and djocovic.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Utter Twaddle!
He was never out of 'Top3' in 2016 - started #2; ended #1! 2015 wasn't bad either! #3 or #2 from early April to end of Year!
		
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In his own era, he was at best 4th. Who cares if he jumped up into top 3 for brief spells, due to a purple patch, or injuries to other players. He will clearly never be considered a better player overall that Federer, Nadal or Djokivic.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Slime said:



			Murray was world ranked No.1 .......................... in his own era.
Hamilton uses machinery, the best there is, Murray used a tennis raquet that you or I could use.
Subtle difference.
		
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That lazy argument again, it is the car doing all the work. Fair enough, Messi  is not even close to being one of the greatest footballers, as he played for one of the best teams of all time.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			In his own era, he was at best 4th. Who cares if he jumped up into top 3 for brief spells, due to a purple patch, or injuries to other players. He will clearly never be considered a better player overall that Federer, Nadal or Djokivic.
		
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That may be your opinion, but this link indicates otherwise! https://www.coretennis.net/tennis-player/andy-murray/279/ranking.html
From 5 April 2015 until 29 Oct 2017 *(almost 30 consecutive months), he was never out of Top 3*!
From Nov 6 2016 until Aug 13 2017 *(over 9 consecutive months), he was #1!*
No 'purple patch'! Other players injuries _might _affect ranking occasionally, but not all 3 of them over that (30 month) period.

FWIW, I'm not a great Murray fan (not certain why), but those stats ARE impressive.


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## Smiffy (Dec 18, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I don't think he meant world ranking.  More that there were better players ahead of him. Like Nadal, Federer and djocovic.
		
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And George Patterson, a member of Bexhill & District Tennis Club.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That may be your opinion, but this link indicates otherwise! https://www.coretennis.net/tennis-player/andy-murray/279/ranking.html
From 5 April 2015 until 29 Oct 2017 *(almost 30 consecutive months), he was never out of Top 3*!
From Nov 6 2016 until Aug 13 2017 *(over 9 consecutive months), he was #1!*

Click to expand...

Not just my opinion. At end of his career, I'd imagine most people would put him behind Nadal, Djokivic and Federer. There is no chance he'd ever even he in the conversation of "Greatest of his Era", let alone "Greatest of All Time"

However, in motor racing, many will consider Lewis as GOAT, or at least enter him within the discussion. Doesn't matter what individuals think. I'm sure many will just not be able to give Lewis any credit, and certainly will desperately try and tell those that listen he is not the GOAT. Doesn't matter, the fact that many think he is the GOAT shows he has achieved a huge amount in his career. Michael Schumacher gained legendary status globally after his achievements, whether individuals liked him or not (he had a decent car as well). No different to Lewis Hamilton. For me, at least, it makes me proud he is a Brit.


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2021)

woofers said:



			Maybe a separate ‘honours thread’ is warranted ?
		
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Totally agree.
Don't know what this has to do with honours


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not just my opinion. *At end of his career, I'd imagine most people would put him behind Nadal, Djokivic and Federer*. There is no chance he'd ever even he in the conversation of "Greatest of his Era", let alone "Greatest of All Time"...
		
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I wouldn't be surprised - though it's Djok*o*vic' btw 
That wasn't what my description of your post was 'Utter Twaddle' was about though! It was about your erroneous assertion(s) about his ranking!

Another FWIW....I believe Hamilton would definitely be 'in the conversation' about GOAT, but (for me) not (yet) the 'winner'.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I wouldn't be surprised - though it's Djok*o*vic' btw 
That wasn't what my description of your post was 'Utter Twaddle' was about though! It was about your erroneous assertion(s) about his ranking!

Another FWIW....I believe Hamilton would definitely be 'in the conversation' about GOAT, but (for me) not (yet) the 'winner'.
		
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As was pointed out, I was not referring to the Official World Tennis Rankings in my OP. I was talking about being within the top 3 overall within his era


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As was pointed out, I was not referring to the Official World Tennis Rankings in my OP. I was talking about being within the top 3 overall within his era
		
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Then you should be more careful with your wording! Using 'of' cf 'in' in the original claim would have been more appropriate. There was plenty of opportunity to clarify later too, but... 

And (another FWIW), unlike LPPhil, I've no issue with either Murray nor Hamilton being knighted. Both deserve it, though the timing of Murray's was _maybe_ a bit more 'deserving'.


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

So looking forward to the 2022 thread....


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## SteveW86 (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			So looking forward to the 2022 thread....

Click to expand...

I assumed this would get renamed the F1 thread like the footy one changed

Could probably delete most of the last 20 pages though


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## theoneandonly (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			So looking forward to the 2022 thread....

Click to expand...

Once the SLH furore has died down, I'm sure all the trolls will return to thier bridges.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			So looking forward to the 2022 thread....

Click to expand...

Wonder who Andy Murray will be driving for???


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Then you should be more careful with your wording! Using 'of' cf 'in' in the original claim would have been more appropriate. There was plenty of opportunity to clarify later too, but... 

And (another FWIW), unlike LPPhil, I've no issue with either Murray nor Hamilton being knighted. Both deserve it, though the timing of Murray's was _maybe_ a bit more 'deserving'.
		
Click to expand...

It seems others knew what I was talking about, especially in context to what the discussion was about.

Anyway, back to F1 and what prompted the discussion (and a general point, rather than necessarily responding directly to.you). In my opinion, Lewis Hamilton definitely deserved the knighthood. If a big part of that knighthood was to do with his achievements within his sport, I don't see why he can't get the knighthood now, rather than having to wait 5, 10, 20,etc years.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

I dunno but seems like the F1 2021 thread may have run its course now. Given the slightly odd tangent it’s gone on.

Lock it and wait for the 2022 thread in feb?!


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## Slime (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			That lazy argument again, *it is the car doing all the work.* Fair enough, Messi  is not even close to being one of the greatest footballers, as he played for one of the best teams of all time.
		
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A silly comment.
The cars don't do all of the work, but having a better car is a huge advantage.
The Messi analogy is just being churlish.
This is pointless, I'm too old for this bickerfest which I was, admittedly, dragged into ...................... apologies for that.
People won't change their opinions.
The season ended poorly and, arguably, wrongly.
Max is champion.
Lewis isn't.
The End.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Slime said:



			A silly comment.
The cars don't do all of the work, but having a better car is a huge advantage.
The Messi analogy is just being churlish.
This is pointless, I'm too old for this bickerfest which I was, admittedly, dragged into ...................... apologies for that.
People won't change their opinions.
The season ended poorly and, arguably, wrongly.
Max is champion.
Lewis isn't.
The End.
		
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Hmmm, not sure it is the end. I mean, the FIA are investigating the whole affair, and I'm sure changes / clarifications will be introduced. So, it is probably only the beginning, and a long way from the end.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I dunno but seems like the F1 2021 thread may have run its course now. Given the slightly odd tangent it’s gone on.

Lock it and wait for the 2022 thread in feb?!
		
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And if we want to discuss the fallout from the FIAs investigation into the AD GP?

If you dont like it. don't stop by


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			And if we want to discuss the fallout from the FIAs investigation into the AD GP?

If you dont like it. don't stop by
		
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You've misunderstood my post. I'm keen to talk and read about F1, but there's several pages of tangential stuff on knighthoods, Andy Murray and bus driving.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			You've misunderstood my post. I'm keen to talk and read about F1, but there's several pages of tangential stuff on knighthoods, Andy Murray and bus driving.
		
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Yes I agree , hopefully the trolls will get bored soon.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			You've misunderstood my post. I'm keen to talk and read about F1, but there's several pages of tangential stuff on knighthoods, Andy Murray and bus driving.
		
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To be fair, the Andy Murray and knighthood stuff was brought up directly due to Lewis Hamilton's knighthood. So, in that sense, Lewis Hamilton and F1 were the primary subject. But, it did go off on a little tangent when Andy Murrays career was reviewed in a lot more detail than was probably required.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			To be fair, the Andy Murray and knighthood stuff was brought up directly due to Lewis Hamilton's knighthood. So, in that sense, Lewis Hamilton and F1 were the primary subject. But, it did go off on a little tangent when Andy Murrays career was reviewed in a lot more detail than was probably required.
		
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Well yes, given this is the 2021 F1 season discussion.


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## cliveb (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			In my opinion, Lewis Hamilton definitely deserved the knighthood. If a big part of that knighthood was to do with his achievements within his sport, I don't see why he can't get the knighthood now, rather than having to wait 5, 10, 20,etc years.
		
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Quite so.
If Lewis (103 wins, 7 titles) doesn't deserve a knighthood, then nor do Jackie Stewart (27 wins, 3 titles), Jack Brabham (14 wins, 3 titles) and Stirling Moss (16 wins, 0 titles).


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Quite so.
If Lewis (103 wins, 7 titles) doesn't deserve a knighthood, then nor do Jackie Stewart (27 wins, 3 titles), Jack Brabham (14 wins, 3 titles) and Stirling Moss (16 wins, 0 titles).
		
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Did they all get knighted once they retired from the sport 🤔


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did they all get knighted once they retired from the sport 🤔
		
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All had retired, at least from F1, when they got knighted - and  all had retired for some time before too.
Modern trend seems to be different - as in 'when deemed worthy' - aka Sir Andy Murray and now Sir Lewis Hamilton.


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## Slime (Dec 18, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Quite so.
If Lewis (103 wins, 7 titles) doesn't deserve a knighthood, then nor do Jackie Stewart (27 wins, 3 titles), Jack Brabham (14 wins, 3 titles) and Stirling Moss (16 wins, 0 titles).
		
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Correct.
I wouldn't give any sportsman a knighthood just for doing their job, no matter how good they do/did it.
They get paid mega millions for doing that.
Knighthoods should be earned for things they do above and beyond their actual job.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

Slime said:



			Correct.
I wouldn't give any sportsman a knighthood just for doing their job, no matter how good they do/did it.
They get paid mega millions for doing that.
Knighthoods should be earned for things they do above and beyond their actual job.
		
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Well, that rules out Bankers, Lawyers, Politicians, Company Director/Managers and ,er, pretty much every possible candidate!


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Well, that rules Bankers, Lawyers, Politicians, Company Director/Managers and ,er, pretty much every possible candidate!
		
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And the problem there is.....?


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			And the problem there is.....?
		
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That - not having them in the first place (because that's what the above pretty much means) - is a different topic!


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2021)

Slime said:



			Correct.
I wouldn't give any sportsman a knighthood just for doing their job, no matter how good they do/did it.
They get paid mega millions for doing that.
Knighthoods should be earned for things they do above and beyond their actual job.
		
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He’s a major contributor to the Great Ormandy Street Hospital. He’s also a major contributor to UNICEF. He contributes a lot to various charities working in Africa, and he’s just pledged to contribute £20m to another charity over the next 3 years.


Edit; if you do a quick search you’ll see he’s been donating large sums of money for years. Think I’d give him a knighthood just for his charitable work.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 18, 2021)

Slime said:



			Correct.
I wouldn't give any sportsman a knighthood just for doing their job, no matter how good they do/did it.
They get paid mega millions for doing that.
Knighthoods should be earned for things they do above and beyond their actual job.
		
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O dear, being dragged into a "knighthood" thread rather than F1, but here goes. 

Firstly, no expert on knighthood, but to me it sounds like it originated as mounted warriors who were successful in battle. So, good at their job. I'd also imagine they were relatively well paid? 

So, are you saying a "knight" centuries ago should not have been so, because all they were doing was being good at their job and being well paid? They should have been doing other things that they were not paid a direct wage for? 

All I can say is, I very much disagree with your assessment. If a person does something that many in Britain can be proud of, whether they are paid for it or not, then they should be up for consideration. I've not googled what Hamilton has done outside F1, but he has had a big influence to people outside the sport, as others have alluded to. He also speaks out on things he feels are important to.him, despite knowing they will also generate some hate or frustration from some sections of society. I'll give him a lot of credit for that, whether I agree with everything he says or not.


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## Slime (Dec 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			O dear, being dragged into a "knighthood" thread rather than F1, but here goes.

Firstly, no expert on knighthood, but to me it sounds like it originated as mounted warriors who were successful in battle. So, good at their job. I'd also imagine they were relatively well paid?

So, are you saying a "knight" centuries ago should not have been so, because all they were doing was being good at their job and being well paid? They should have been doing other things that they were not paid a direct wage for?

*All I can say is, I very much disagree with your assessment.* If a person does something that many in Britain can be proud of, whether they are paid for it or not, then they should be up for consideration. I've not googled what Hamilton has done outside F1, but he has had a big influence to people outside the sport, as others have alluded to. He also speaks out on things he feels are important to.him, despite knowing they will also generate some hate or frustration from some sections of society. I'll give him a lot of credit for that, whether I agree with everything he says or not.
		
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That's fine because I totally respect your opinion, it's just that mine is different.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59747656

😲


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59747656

😲
		
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Obscene reaction by those haters! There should be consequences for them!
Wise decision by Latifi to temporarily delete (anti-)social media accounts temporarily!


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## HeftyHacker (Dec 21, 2021)

I don't know if its been mentioned previously but I am looking forward to seeing the next series of Drive to Survive after the end of this season!


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## SaintHacker (Dec 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59747656

😲
		
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Unbelievable,  i sometimes think its time someone just pulled the plug on the internet completely


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Unbelievable,  i sometimes think its time someone just pulled the plug on the internet completely 

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No. Just 'Social' Media!
Or at least describe most of it properly as Anti-Social!


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## Slime (Dec 21, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



*Unbelievable*,  i sometimes think its time someone just pulled the plug on the internet completely 

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Really?
For some, actually many, that's exactly what social media is for. It's keyboard warriors o'clock most of the time.


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## bobmac (Dec 22, 2021)

HeftyHacker said:



			I don't know if its been mentioned previously but I am looking forward to seeing the next series of Drive to Survive after the end of this season!
		
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Max has refused to be in it this year


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## HeftyHacker (Dec 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Max has refused to be in it this year
		
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I bet the producers are absolutely gutted after watching that season pan out.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			No. Just 'Social' Media!
Or at least describe most of it properly as Anti-Social!
		
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Then there would be no forums like this on which to hold reasoned debates.


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Then there would be no forums like this on which to hold reasoned debates.
		
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But think of the productivity increases! 
I agree though - and my comment was really a 'throw away' reply (to an even bigger knee-jerk) to restrict it to the recognised commercial behemoths cf moderated 'clubs' like this, even if, as here, supported via 'for profit' orgs.
Of course, it's not going to happen anyway, so no point doing anything but 'wish' for the old days - as per so many conversations in Seniors 4-Balls!


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## theoneandonly (Dec 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59747656

😲
		
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Probably the same people who threatened Karius....


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Probably the same people who threatened Karius....
		
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Thats a very random tangent and some how managed to bring Liverpool into it - it’s almost as if you have been here before 🤔


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## theoneandonly (Dec 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thats a very random tangent and some how managed to bring Liverpool into it - it’s almost as if you have been here before 🤔
		
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What's random? 2 sportsmen receive death threats for making mistakes. I wonder what sort of person does this.

Yes you've got me, I'm timgolfy.🥱


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## theoneandonly (Dec 22, 2021)

Mick Schumacher has signed in to be Ferrari reserve driver next year. I guess he may get a chance if Covid causes any issues.
Obviously continuing to race for Haas too.


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