# 10.5 is 11, no it's not



## bobmac (May 8, 2013)

I know a h/cap of 10.4 means your off 10 and 10.5 means your off 11 but can anyone tell me why?
Surely common sense would say 10.0-10.9 would be 10 etc
Just curious


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## CMAC (May 8, 2013)

common Maths formulae to round up or down, suppose there has to be a 'cut off point' somewhere and the 'middle' makes sense.


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## markyjee (May 8, 2013)

I would guess its because playing h/cap is a whole number and in the numeracy world you round up or down to the number depending on which number you are closer to.


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## Canary_Yellow (May 8, 2013)

bobmac said:



			I know a h/cap of 10.4 means your off 10 and 10.5 means your off 11 but can anyone tell me why?
Surely common sense would say 10.0-10.9 would be 10 etc
Just curious
		
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I'm not sure I understand your point really, I'm assuming it goes beyond the common convention of how to round to the nearest number.

Are you suggesting that it leads to players playing of a handicap that is higher (by up to 0.5) than there actual handicap? And that this is somehow unfair?

I suppose you could say why round at all and all nett scores have a decimal place?


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## duncan mackie (May 8, 2013)

our common sense's differ

10 = -0.5 -> +0.4 seems to be more sensible than having 10.9 as 10 to me.


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## bobmac (May 8, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			our common sense's differ

10 = -0.5 -> +0.4 seems to be more sensible than having 10.9 as 10 to me.
		
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If you are 40 years and 6 months old and someone asks you how old you are, would you round it up and say you are 41?


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## cookelad (May 8, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			our common sense's differ

10 = -0.5 -> +0.4 seems to be more sensible than having 10.9 as 10 to me.
		
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Took the words out of my mouth!

But I can see Bob's point as I edge closer to 5.5!


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## timchump (May 8, 2013)

hmm i'm comfused
isn't it just maths, if somebody plays of 10.9 they are more likely to play to a handicap of 11 than 10


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## chrisd (May 8, 2013)

I'm 11.9 as at today an agree with Bobs reasoning. I should be off 11 until I reach 12 (this Sunday)


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## ADB (May 8, 2013)

Is it done to encourage or motivate players for a cut? I am currently teetering on 12.4, one more 0.1 and I will be playing off 13 which will be a valuable shot to try and get back to 12 or lower. If I had to (potentially) wait for another 5 x 0.1's to get that extra shot it would be rather demotivating IMO. Just a thought.


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## Fader (May 8, 2013)

Got to admit I know whythey do it as it is because of common mathematical numbers you round up after 0.5. BUT I totally agree with Bob. 10.0 - 10.9 should be playing handicap of 10! After all the reasoning on age he also gives is spot on, i'm 32 & 9 months but i'm not 33!


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## bobmac (May 8, 2013)

snaphookwedge said:



			Is it done to encourage or motivate players for a cut? I am currently teetering on 12.4, one more 0.1 and I will be playing off 13 which will be a valuable shot to try and get back to 12 or lower. If I had to (potentially) wait for another 5 x 0.1's to get that extra shot it would be rather demotivating IMO. Just a thought.
		
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Surely you'd have the same motivation at 12.9 ?

How about the people going down ?
9.5 isn't single figures 
5.5 isn't Cat I


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## Five&One (May 8, 2013)

bobmac said:



			If you are 40 years and 6 months old and someone asks you how old you are, would you round it up and say you are 41?
		
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No I  tell them I am 32. !!


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## cookelad (May 8, 2013)

Fader said:



			Got to admit I know whythey do it as it is because of common mathematical numbers you round up after 0.5. BUT I totally agree with Bob. 10.0 - 10.9 should be playing handicap of 10! After all the reasoning on age he also gives is spot on, i'm 32 & 9 months but i'm not 33!
		
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Agree completely - I'm 29 and 18months


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2013)

Maybe you have to consider how things would work in comps wehere shots are given based upon 3/4 difference etc.  There is a rounding up and down in these as well.  Seems to me that the way playing handicap is set has to take into account the likes of matchplay as well.


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## ADB (May 8, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Surely you'd have the same motivation at 12.9 ?

How about the people going down ?
9.5 isn't single figures 
5.5 isn't Cat I 

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Didn't really think that one though


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Agree completely - I'm 29 and 18months
		
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But if we recalibrated age and defined one new human year to be equal to ten current human years, and say you were 9/10th of the way through your third 'year' would we say you were two or three (when 29 in old human years would you feel or be perceived to be 20 or 30 - to all intents and purposes you'd be 30 I'd say - so natural to round up and down, not always down)


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## scratch (May 8, 2013)

bobmac said:



			I know a h/cap of 10.4 means your off 10 and 10.5 means your off 11 but can anyone tell me why?
Surely common sense would say 10.0-10.9 would be 10 etc
Just curious
		
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It's done that way to confuse old duffers Bob


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## jimbob.someroo (May 8, 2013)

timchump said:



			hmm i'm comfused
isn't it just maths, if somebody plays of 10.9 they are more likely to play to a handicap of 11 than 10
		
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For me, this makes a lot of sense. If you're shooting somewhere between 10 & 11 you will probably be averaging 10.4/10.5, hence the cut off being in the middle. That way, if you get slightly better, you are closer to being off 10.

It's also easier to understand this way for people around scratch. Otherwise -0.9 to +0.9 would appear to be off 0?


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## Matty (May 8, 2013)

I think you should be using mathematical rounding to the nearest whole number, that way the handicap you actually play off is only every going to 0.5 away from your actual real handicap. If you start rounding down you may be losing anything up to 0.9 of a shot so essentially this form of rounding will move your game handicap much further away from your actual handicap.

With the proposed rounding down you would essentially be saying some who plays off 9.9 is 1 shot better than someone playing of 10. Is that fair?


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## duncan mackie (May 8, 2013)

bobmac said:



			If you are 40 years and 6 months old and someone asks you how old you are, would you round it up and say you are 41?
		
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birthdays are one way traffic, and generally discussed in terms of 'attained', and sometimes even celebrated 

ask someone who's 17y 300days and they will probably respond "I'm nearly 18".

with a whole number reference it makes most sense to be 'nearest', and I'm sure there was a long and heated debate at to whether 0.5 should be rounded up or down, but at the end of the day it's not a big issue either way ie it is what it is!


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## upsidedown (May 8, 2013)

Matty;823445

With the proposed rounding down you would essentially be saying some who plays off 9.9 is 1 shot better than someone playing of 10. Is that fair?[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			Um isn't that the same as 9.4 and 9.5 ??
		
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## HawkeyeMS (May 8, 2013)

Basic maths I guess, never really thought about it and can't say I have ever thought about it. It's just the way it is


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## kid2 (May 8, 2013)

I think Bob's method would be a better marker...... But then what would happen when you dont shoot handicap..... do you go up that particular no. of shots that you missed the buffer by?

As many bandits as there are currently in our clubs.....It would be like a remake of the Magnificent seven if we were dealing in full shots......


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## HomerJSimpson (May 8, 2013)

Having just reached this mark, I will be taking the shot available to me while quietly seething that my incompetence has seen me slip further away from single figures. There has to be a cut off and to be honest I have more to worry about in my golfing world than the complexities of applied mathematics  association to the relevant cut off clause of the handicapping system


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## Foxholer (May 8, 2013)

Bob,

For someone who doesn't 'have' a handicap, you seem to be showing a tad excessive interest in the concept. On a 'positive spin' note, that does show independence.

There does have to be some sort of cut-off. Apart from the n.5 one, which is just as logical to round up as down, I believe that the n.6 to n.9 are 'closer to n+1 than n', so it is better to round up than simply chop. and as handicaps are all relative values anyway, it makes little/no difference, on average.

Golf has always been a 'rounded up' pastime. The 2 or 3 inch putt is only a tiny percentage of the several shots before but still counts the same. By your logic, should that not be rounded down?


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## srixon 1 (May 8, 2013)

Brilliant, does that mean that I finally made it to 3


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## HawkeyeMS (May 9, 2013)

Been thinking about this since my last post (cheers Bob) and you could make a case for what you say, but you could also make a case for rounding up so 10 would be 9.1 to 10.0. After all, if you're handicap is greater than 9, it should be 10 right? I'm still not sure it really matters though.


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## bobmac (May 9, 2013)

For someone who doesn't 'have' a handicap, you seem to be showing a tad excessive interest in the concept.
		
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Hardly, I'm just curious (the clue was in the OP) why the powers that be chose to go from 9.5-10.4 as opposed to 10.0-10.9.




			The 2 or 3 inch putt is only a tiny percentage of the several shots before but still counts the same. By your logic, should that not be rounded down?
		
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I'm not asking for anything to be rounded up or down just that if your handicap starts with a '10' then it should be 10






			It's just the way it is
		
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			but at the end of the day it is what it is!
		
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Thats all right then


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## MKDave (May 9, 2013)

I can see why people agree with Bob OP, another great example is if something costs Â£20 and you only have Â£19.50 they don't let you round that up.

But that is irrelevant and comparing apples with oranges. Mathmatically numbers are rounded up unless decimals are used throughout. As its consistant all the way through it doesn't really matter how its worked out. Who's to say that the handicap brackets and their reduction factors are correct? It's all relative and its all part of a group of formulae to make this consistant.


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## MKDave (May 9, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Hardly, I'm just curious (the clue was in the OP) why the powers that be chose to go from 9.5-10.4 as opposed to 10.0-10.9.
		
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The answer to that is because 9.6-10.4 are closer to 10 than 10.6-10.9 (the only dodgey number is 0.5)

If you set a goal or a target for example for weight of 150lbs, if you weighed 145lbs you are closer to your target weight than if you weigh 156lbs.

If you play nearest the pin and you are 5 foot past or or 5 feet from the pin its still the same distance, its not rounded up or down dependant on whether you are under or over the target. It's closest to a number because thats exactly what it is, closest to a number.

I always thought the point of a handicap was to make things as level a playing field as possible so essentially it doesn't matter which way its done as long as its consistant but they way it is done makes more sense as its closer to the perfect or round number


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## Smiffy (May 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Bob,

For someone who doesn't 'have' a handicap, you seem to be showing a tad excessive interest in the concept.
		
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Knowing the whinging old git like I do, I expect he has just been knocked out of a club competition by a 10.5 handicapper and the handshake was carried out on the stroke index 11 hole.
:smirk:


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## G1BB0 (May 9, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			Knowing the whinging old git like I do, I expect he has just been knocked out of a club competition by a 10.5 handicapper and the handshake was carried out on the stroke index 11 hole.
:smirk:
		
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haha, your probably right Smiffy


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## chrisd (May 9, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			Knowing the whinging old git like I do, I expect he has just been knocked out of a club competition by a 10.5 handicapper and the handshake was carried out on the stroke index 11 hole.
:smirk:
		
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Worse still - he had to give full handicap allowance!


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## bobmac (May 9, 2013)

Dont worry, I'm taking names :smirk:

What a bunch of knobs


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## StrangelyBrown (May 9, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Hardly, I'm just curious (the clue was in the OP) why the powers that be chose to go from 9.5-10.4 as opposed to 10.0-10.9.
		
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They stuck with the rounding convention set out in maths. It's as sensible a decision as the R&A / Golfing Unions have ever made


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## Bomber69 (May 9, 2013)

bobmac said:



			I know a h/cap of 10.4 means your off 10 and 10.5 means your off 11 but can anyone tell me why?
Surely common sense would say 10.0-10.9 would be 10 etc
Just curious
		
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It has been set up to stop RickG getting to Cat 1, not even a silly English ESR can help him:whoo::rofl::rofl:


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## USER1999 (May 9, 2013)

More to the point, in a team event, it's often a multiplier of combined playing handicaps that then produces a decimal handicap. Why not use combined decimals for the calculation?


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## cookelad (May 9, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			More to the point, in a team event, it's often a multiplier of combined playing handicaps that then produces a decimal handicap. Why not use combined decimals for the calculation?
		
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or in Matchplay - somebody off 9.6 playing someone off 10.4 could be giving his opponent a shot or somebody playing off 10.4 playing 10.6 would be playing proper (no shots) golf!


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