# N/Ring in Comps



## NorfolkShaun (Aug 16, 2014)

Whats peoples opinions on this?

We have noticed lately there are quite a few people who N/R but still play all 18, now for me if your playing 18 Medal or Stableford you should be putting your score in.

We had our club champs today over 36 holes and we noticed around 10-15% of people had N/R after one or both rounds and in last weeks Stableford about 17 out of about 55 N/R

To be honest baring an emergency or injury I cannot see an excuse to N/R just because things are not going your way.

I may be wrong here but I thought an N/R effected CSS so by doing this people are potentially making CSS lower than it should be or have I got this bit wrong?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 16, 2014)

NRs just count as 1 above buffer I believe 

And can see why people do NR in a medal if they have lost balls etc and the day is going bad 

But can't see how you can NR in a stableford


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## fundy (Aug 16, 2014)

no such thing as an NR in stableford surely. As for medal, if having a bad day and dont find a ball, then Im not convinced walking back achieves anything. I try hard not to, but happens some time. Its when people are doing because they dont want to return an embarassing score it becomes a problem


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## brendy (Aug 16, 2014)

I NRd in todays stroke having hit a tree, ball disappeared and the group behind were approaching. Of course I could have went back and penalty dropped but in the interests of keeping an already slow day moving, I strolled on. It happened on the 15th hole. Typically birdied the 16th too in true inconsistent style.
There is absolutely no shame in NRing if you are well over handicap and it helps keep everyone else's round moving along.


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## macca64 (Aug 16, 2014)

never n/r as of yet, always try to the end,


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## Bobirdie (Aug 16, 2014)

think people end up nr'ing due to the big deal of slow play. if you knock 5 off the tee and you are looking for 3 balls i can see why people nr


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 16, 2014)

Have to say reading this maybe I am seeing this from the wrong way, I was thinking more from what Fundy said about a vanity side


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## BrizoH71 (Aug 16, 2014)

brendy said:



			I NRd in todays stroke having hit a tree, ball disappeared and the group behind were approaching. Of course I could have went back and penalty dropped but in the interests of keeping an already slow day moving, I strolled on. It happened on the 15th hole. Typically birdied the 16th too in true inconsistent style.
There is absolutely no shame in NRing if you are well over handicap and it helps keep everyone else's round moving along.
		
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This. :thup:


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## 6inchcup (Aug 17, 2014)

it tends to be more of a vanity thing than slow play,i have played with cat1 players who are playing pants,then after 16 holes they then decide they have a jippy tummy and walk in claiming there score was caused by a non existent injury/sickness,all this to save them having to put a bad card in,same for mid h/c players who think they are better than they are,walk in before putting a card in the high 90's,unless for medical grounds anyone not putting a card in should have a 3 comp ban and banned from board comps and majors.


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## brendy (Aug 17, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			it tends to be more of a vanity thing than slow play,i have played with cat1 players who are playing pants,then after 16 holes they then decide they have a jippy tummy and walk in claiming there score was caused by a non existent injury/sickness,all this to save them having to put a bad card in,same for mid h/c players who think they are better than they are,walk in before putting a card in the high 90's,unless for medical grounds anyone not putting a card in should have a 3 comp ban and banned from board comps and majors.
		
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Perhaps that happens at your club. In many clubs though, Master Scoreboard software is used. All cards still have to be signed and put onto the computer regardless of which holes were not completed and we can see everyones handicap/actual scoring over the year so vanity doesn't come into it if we can all still see the cricket scores on the cards. If you decide not to return a card at all there is a weeks ban waiting for you.


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## dontfancythisputt (Aug 17, 2014)

I dont see any shame at all in nring if a handicap score is well beyond reach and carrying on with a hole is going to cause delay to others who may have a good score going. I do however always try to complete 18 holes as to get a full card completed but also to continue signing for pp.

Do see a fair amount of walks in though and they are often lower handicap players.


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## Fyldewhite (Aug 17, 2014)

Not only do I not see any issue with NR's (unless people are doing it to manipulate), I don't see why people get so hot under the collar on this subject and say things like "I will never NR". Well, I'm glad I'm not playing with/behind you when you are having a bad day then!

There is also often a lack of understanding of the handicap system. If I NR anywhere then my first objective is to try to make the buffer zone which I've done quite a few times. Q. How many people "give up" after getting a blob at stableford A. Not many, yet blow up in a medal and most are down and out when there's no need to be. You can even get a cut. I've never managed that but would imagine it's a distinct possibility for higher handicappers.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

On CSS, i see what LP said so does an N/R being one over buffer effect CSS differently to someone putting in a card lets say 10 over buffer?


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## Fyldewhite (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			On CSS, i see what LP said so does an N/R being one over buffer effect CSS differently to someone putting in a card lets say 10 over buffer?
		
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The CSS is calculated on the proportion of scores SSS + buffer or better. As it's all done on stableford adjustment an NR makes no difference.....the bad hole counts as a nett double and the score is what it is on that basis. So, yes, the above two scores would affect that calculation.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			The CSS is calculated on the proportion of scores SSS + buffer or better. As it's all done on stableford adjustment an NR makes no difference.....the bad hole counts as a nett double and the score is what it is on that basis. So, yes, the above two scores would affect that calculation.
		
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Thanks for that.

I also guess there is a very big difference between and N/R and not handing in a card


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## Fyldewhite (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			Thanks for that.

I also guess there is a very big difference between and N/R and not handing in a card
		
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Yes, ALL cards should be returned regardless of what is written on them. The software can be (and usually is) configured to treat non-returned cards as NR's for handicap purposes but committees should be minimising the need for this by ensuring players know and meet their responsibility to return cards. Basically, if cards aren't returned it's then very difficult to police handicap manipulation.


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## Tommo21 (Aug 17, 2014)

First of all, anyone can NR, itâ€™s only club a club competition, itâ€™s no big deal. I do it on the odd occasion, especially on the odd day when nothing goes right no matter what you do. I think itâ€™s better getting shot of the card rather than annoying yourself even more. 

However, some people NR when they could get buffer if they grind it out. Lack of understanding can lead to this especially when a high score in one hole. Example, Iâ€™m one over par after 14 holes, I pull my tee shot on 15 into the trees, find my ball, take a two club drop just outside the trees, play my third shot that clips the trees, play my fourth out safe right, go over the hill and I canâ€™t find it. Never looked in danger. I then go back and play another ball, the upshot being a nine. That hole was rounded down to a double and I still made buffer. 
The point being most would not bother  going back to play another ball.


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## NST (Aug 17, 2014)

I NR'd for the first time last week, lightning while we were on 11th green. All players that went out Sunday morning did, I'd imagine those that had been out on the Saturday weren't too bothered by this. NR'd again today, current handicap 21, I was 21 over on 17th tee, first tee shot OOB, we thought we'd find second one, but no need to play a provisional for 5 off tee. Didn't find 2nd tee shot so NR'd. Either way I was getting 0.1 back.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

Several saying they couldn't be bothered to walk back! Why didn't you play a provisional off the tee if there was any doubt about it being found? 

I have never NR'd other than when my back went on the second hole or through illness. I've had big scores and come last in the division more than once but would rather try my hardest and put a score in. I have yet to have any issues with slow play having put provisional(s) in play at every chance and then looking briefly if the next group are approaching the tee or the five minutes if pace of play allows


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## bigslice (Aug 17, 2014)

heard this last week that my golf club has the highest amount of NRs week in week out in Scotland. then today while discussing this my playing partners informed me that we have the highest in Europe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ive NRd loads because ive lost 3 balls of the tee onto railweay then thinned wedges onto railway or into river. plus the purple heather is up and u canny see a thing. ive never NRd to save face or not to put a card in. hey ive had some good 10s on my card (20 feet putt lol)


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## CMAC (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Several saying they couldn't be bothered to walk back! Why didn't you play a provisional off the tee if there was any doubt about it being found? 

*I have never NR'd *other than when my back went on the second hole or through illness.* I've had big scores and come last in the division more than once but would rather try my hardest and put a score in.* I have yet to have any issues with slow play having put provisional(s) in play at every chance and then looking briefly if the next group are approaching the tee or the five minutes if pace of play allows
		
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thats what holds up rounds, your 5 mins for each ball then a big score just to get a score concertinas back and before ya know it theres a 5 minute wait on every tee- Not saying it's just you, it's partly a cause, if you have many players doing it even though their score is irrelevant in the scheme of the comp.

I've NR'd many times. I'm well over par, I've just put one in the thick rough and the provisional is there also, cant find either so do I walk back to ensure I get a score 17 shots over my handicap or keep things moving for the rest who are playing better? It's 0.1 either way.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Can someone explain in plain simple English what difference it would make for the below 2 scenarios.

20 handicapper shoots 30 over and decides not to bother putting the card in so a NR.

20 handicapper shoots 30 over par and enters his score into the computer and puts his card in.

Both of those scenarios mean that he gets 0.1 back onto his handicap. Does it actually make a difference to CSS? I'm not interested in replies about vanity etc etc only what difference it will make to the rest of the field in terms of CSS. This is a genuine question as I don't know the answer.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			Can someone explain in plain simple English what difference it would make for the below 2 scenarios.

20 handicapper shoots 30 over and decides not to bother putting the card in so a NR.

20 handicapper shoots 30 over par and enters his score into the computer and puts his card in.

Both of those scenarios mean that he gets 0.1 back onto his handicap. Does it actually make a difference to CSS? I'm not interested in replies about vanity etc etc only what difference it will make to the rest of the field in terms of CSS. This is a genuine question as I don't know the answer.
		
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It will make no difference to CSS I'm led to believe


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

CMAC said:



			thats what holds up rounds, your 5 mins for each ball .
		
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Please read the reply fully before making such comments. Clearly said *BRIEF* look if the group behind are approaching the tee. Putting a provisional in play means I can move on without holding the play up. I clearly said I'll look for five minutes if the pace of play allows such as no one coming up behind or the field is stacked up and no one can go anywhere anyway.


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## bozza (Aug 17, 2014)

Never N/R and don't plan on doing it unless I physically can't complete the round. 

In strokeplay if I have any doubt at all I may not find a ball I play a provisional. 

For me i guess it's a pride thing, no matter how bad I'm playing I'll always try shoot the best score I can rather than quitting and putting a N/R in.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

For me some really interesting thoughts on this, on of my regular PP had a real mare yesterday and kept going. He was losing 2/3 balls on some holes playing a provisional each time then as Homer said a brief look then move on to the provisional.

He was the worst completed score of the day much to his embarrassment, maybe for his enjoyment he should of N/R and just played each hole to an end / lost ball. 

On the point of slow play we were never far behind the group in front and never had people catching us so this was not an issue being a 36 hole day the rounds were a touch slower anyway.

For me to N/R was a bad thing to do but maybe sometimes it would be the best option for your enjoyment and the enjoyment of others.

Where an issue arises it the walking off and not handing in and as mentioned there is no reason to N/R a Stableford.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

bozza said:



			Never N/R and don't plan on doing it unless I physically can't complete the round. 

In strokeplay if I have any doubt at all I may not find a ball I play a provisional. 

For me i guess it's a pride thing, no matter how bad I'm playing I'll always try shoot the best score I can rather than quitting and putting a N/R in.
		
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So you are playing poorly - already getting .1 back and then shove two tee shots OOB - would you then tee up another ball ? 

There is no harm in putting in a NR when it's a pretty sensible thing to do - people can still be cut from an NR as our Vice Cap found put a week ago 

At times putting in an NR is a sensible thing to do


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			For me some really interesting thoughts on this, on of my regular PP had a real mare yesterday and kept going. He was losing 2/3 balls on some holes playing a provisional each time then as Homer said a brief look then move on to the provisional.

He was the worst completed score of the day much to his embarrassment, maybe for his enjoyment he should of N/R and just played each hole to an end / lost ball. 

On the point of slow play we were never far behind the group in front and never had people catching us so this was not an issue being a 36 hole day the rounds were a touch slower anyway.

For me to N/R was a bad thing to do but maybe sometimes it would be the best option for your enjoyment and the enjoyment of others.

Where an issue arises it the walking off and not handing in and as mentioned there is no reason to N/R a Stableford.
		
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Think you have it spot on 

Walking off is as you say different


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you are playing poorly - already getting .1 back and then shove two tee shots OOB - would you then tee up another ball ? 

There is no harm in putting in a NR when it's a pretty sensible thing to do - people can still be cut from an NR as our Vice Cap found put a week ago 

At times putting in an NR is a sensible thing to do
		
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Short answer yes. Two OB, no time lost looking so I'd hit five off the tee.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			At times putting in an NR is a sensible thing to do
		
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I guess there is a case here that putting in an N/R would assist your PP if they are on a good round and all you are doing is breaking their rhythm and putting them off their round


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Short answer yes. Two OB, no time lost looking so I'd hit five off the tee.
		
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To be honest I agree with Homer here but this could also depend on your current score.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Short answer yes. Two OB, no time lost looking so I'd hit five off the tee.
		
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Why ? What is the point when you are already getting a .1 back and will run up a cricket score ? 

What about your FC who are having to wait around for you whilst you shove another tee shot down there


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			To be honest I agree with Homer here but this could also depend on your current score.
		
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Hence why I clarified that you were already getting .1 back


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why I clarified that you were already getting .1 back
		
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Then the answer would clearly be no, in fact maybe a no after the first one ob


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			For me some really interesting thoughts on this, on of my regular PP had a real mare yesterday and kept going. He was losing 2/3 balls on some holes playing a provisional each time then as Homer said a brief look then move on to the provisional.

He was the worst completed score of the day much to his embarrassment, maybe for his enjoyment he should of N/R and just played each hole to an end / lost ball. 

On the point of slow play we were never far behind the group in front and never had people catching us so this was not an issue being a 36 hole day the rounds were a touch slower anyway.

For me to N/R was a bad thing to do but maybe sometimes it would be the best option for your enjoyment and the enjoyment of others.

Where an issue arises it the walking off and not handing in and as mentioned there is no reason to N/R a Stableford.
		
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My point entirely and like the PP for my own self satisfaction I'd have carried on too


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## CMAC (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Please read the reply fully before making such comments. Clearly said *BRIEF* look if the group behind are approaching the tee. Putting a provisional in play means I can move on without holding the play up. I clearly said I'll look for five minutes if the pace of play allows such as no one coming up behind or the field is stacked up and no one can go anywhere anyway.
		
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your either not getting it or being deliberately obtuse!

have a brief look all you want, if you dont find 1st or prov your then walking back even if there are people on the tee, that's your words as you NEVER NR so you would have to.............you do that verbatim in every round if it arises and you think that doesnt contribute to slowing up the people behind (or your own group )


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My point entirely and like the PP for my own self satisfaction I'd have carried on too
		
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I have to say Homer he was pretty upset he is a regular pp of mine, he even mentioned giving up after the rounds. Reading the comments here I think he would of felt better had he N/R.


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## moogie (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My point entirely and like the PP for my own self satisfaction I'd have carried on too
		
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What "satisfaction".....??

N/R the hole......put scores in for remaining holes,  move on
Can still get a cut / stableford adjustment with a n/r card

Don't understand some of things wrote on here at times


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

CMAC said:



			your either not getting it or being deliberately obtuse!

have a brief look all you want, if you dont find 1st or prov your then walking back even if there are people on the tee, that's your words as you NEVER NR so you would have to.............you do that verbatim in every round if it arises and you think that doesnt contribute to slowing up the people behind (or your own group )
		
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I said provisional(s) plural. First sign of a ball going into trouble and play a pro. Racked up a 9 in the last medal. Hook off the tee. Hit provisional. Lost ball. Played the third, hooked that. Hit another. Couldn't find the second hooked ball so finished the hole out with the third ball of the hole. Then went par, par, par. Stupid game. Point is, I knew where the ball had gone there was a serious chance of a lost ball and so merely played another and when it was apparent it was a needle in a haystack job merely went and played on. 

The group behind were only making their way to the tee as I played my second ball (three off the tee) and had only just got to the tee shots by the time I abandoned the search for the second one and resumed with the other one. No undue delay and in fact we were half a hole in front by the 10th when they had similar issues on the 9th hole


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			Then the answer would clearly be no, in fact maybe a no after the first one ob
		
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Yep me too and have done - especially if my FC is playing well 

That's when a NR is the sensible thing to do


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep me too and have done - especially if my FC is playing well 

That's when a NR is the sensible thing to do
		
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How long is your pre-shot routine then. How long does it really take to hit another tee shot and as the FC playing well would have already have teed off it's not going to influence his tee shot is it?


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## moogie (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep me too and have done - especially if my FC is playing well 

That's when a NR is the sensible thing to do
		
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Exactly
If I was playing like a complete noob and a fc on a score
I'd get outa way at every opportunity and not hold them up

For me
The right thing to do :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			How long is your pre-shot routine then. How long does it really take to hit another tee shot and as the FC playing well would have already have teed off it's not going to influence his tee shot is it?
		
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But it does influence him moving on to his next shot 

My score by that stage is meaningless - NR walk on , allow the FC to continue his play without watching me hack it round and then tee up for the next hole 

It's all .1 at the end of the day - an NR is no different to an 80 nett


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But it does influence him moving on to his next shot 

My score by that stage is meaningless - NR walk on , allow the FC to continue his play without watching me hack it round and then tee up for the next hole 

It's all .1 at the end of the day - an NR is no different to an 80 nett
		
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Clearly your going to counter argue every post......again. I'll continue to do it my way and leave you to have the oh so right high ground. I'm out


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Homer, do you think if you choose to NR you would be in a better place mentally? 

My PP yesterday was playing some awful shots and compounding errors, i'm wondering of he had put in NR he may of been able to clear his head


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 17, 2014)

I suppose it depends what is meant by NR. 

If it means not returning a card after a competition round then I would be against that as it is not enabling the H&C committee to get an accurate impression of a player's current form.

If, however, it is a case of a player having a bad medal round losing a ball unexpectedly and then choosing to not return a score at that particular hole but continuing to return scores on the remaining holes there is surely no problem. After all aren't handicaps calculated on the Stableford basis so No Score At This Hole merely counts as a net double-bogey.

Can't really see anything in all this macho "I have never NR'd and never will!"


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			I suppose it depends what is meant by NR. 

If it means not returning a card after a competition round then I would be against that as it is not enabling the H&C committee to get an accurate impression of a player's current form.

If, however, it is a case of a player having a bad medal round losing a ball unexpectedly and then choosing to not return a score at that particular hole but continuing to return scores on the remaining holes there is surely no problem. After all aren't handicaps calculated on the Stableford basis so No Score At This Hole merely counts as a net double-bogey.

Can't really see anything in all this macho "I have never NR'd and never will!"
		
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We have a few people who are constantly not putting their card in after the round ( mainly because it's a poor score ) so we are thinking of actually imposing sanctions to people that don't at the very least put their scorecard into the box


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2014)

Only ever NR-ed twice.

Once when couldn't find a ball - that should easily have been find-able - on 15th and score was long gone anyway. Once when got stuck behind 'Lady Captain's Last Hurrah!' inching their way to a 5hr 30+ round and the 5 holes of the back 9 that we played took longer than the 9 we skipped around on the front! The 14th finishes very near the Clubhouse, so we walked in. The reasonable front 9 scores had been rather destroyed by the change of rhythm.

No ego involved; just simple expediency.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have a few people who are constantly not putting their card in after the round ( mainly because it's a poor score ) so we are thinking of actually imposing sanctions to people that don't at the very least put their scorecard into the box
		
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I think this is where the confusion arises for me, there is a big difference between not putting in a card and a NR


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			I think this is where the confusion arises for me, there is a big difference between not putting in a card and a NR
		
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Yep - a NR for me is a no returned score as opposed to a non returned scorecard or someone walking off

We DQ them even though their score then becomes a NR


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## dontfancythisputt (Aug 17, 2014)

I hate it when im on a good scores and doing the right thing means looking for a ball of a pp who is well over their handicap but refuses to NR. Im thinking what the hells difference is writing a 9 or NR down going to make! 

I will eagerly look for anyones ball if they have a score going or can save buffer and hope they'd return the favour. I dont however like wasting anyones time looking for my ball or waiting whilst i hit provisional after provisional when my score has completely gone so I NR almost immediately to let people know they shouldnt let my round influence their game at all.

I'll carry on trying to make a score after nring but I'll do it with minimal fuss. 

Consider not NRing a little selfish in some cases.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			Homer, do you think if you choose to NR you would be in a better place mentally? 

My PP yesterday was playing some awful shots and compounding errors, i'm wondering of he had put in NR he may of been able to clear his head
		
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No. Wouldn't sit well with me and I'd feel more annoyed not putting the score in rather than try for the best score I could on the day even if that means finishing last. Mentality has nothing to do with it. Once the round is gone, I'll consider if it's one of those days or if one area was to blame, I'll work on it before the next round. Once it's done it's done.


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## CMAC (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



*Clearly your going to counter argue every post......again*. I'll continue to do it my way and leave you to have the oh so right high ground. I'm out
		
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isn't that what your doing with Phil as well


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## fundy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep - a NR for me is a no returned score as opposed to a non returned scorecard or someone walking off

We DQ them even though their score then becomes a NR
		
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Nothing wrong with NR'ing a hole and or the rest of the round, completely wrong not to return a card at all, should be getting a warning the first time and explained what penalties will come if they keep doing it imho


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## NST (Aug 17, 2014)

Medal play is new to me, but I feel the same about people who "play the hole with you" in Stableford having putt three balls OOB off the tee then hack down the hole.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

fundy said:



			Nothing wrong with NR'ing a hole and or the rest of the round, completely wrong not to return a card at all, should be getting a warning the first time and explained what penalties will come if they keep doing it imho
		
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Yeah at the moment we don't do anything - just a DQ but would certainly like to see warnings etc happening


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## moogie (Aug 17, 2014)

fundy said:



			Nothing wrong with NR'ing a hole and or the rest of the round, completely wrong not to return a card at all, should be getting a warning the first time and explained what penalties will come if they keep doing it imho
		
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My feelings exactly

Only other thing that gripes me is when somebody enters 18 x zeros for their score....??....!!
So they didn't play out 1 full hole....??......doubt it myself


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

One of the lads mentioned yesterday his old club used to issue a ban if an NR was registered I would guess he is mixed up with no card being put in.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 17, 2014)

moogie said:



			My feelings exactly

Only other thing that gripes me is when somebody enters 18 x zeros for their score....??....!!
So they didn't play out 1 full hole....??......doubt it myself
		
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Surely in those circumstances the H&C Committee would be asking for an explanation. Like you I would find that sort of card very dubious.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			One of the lads mentioned yesterday his old club used to issue a ban if an NR was registered I would guess he is mixed up with no card being put in.
		
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We don't have a charity bunker as such so we have tried to say that anyone who puts in a NR puts a pound in the captains charity bottle 

Until one day the captain and his mate had an NR and didn't put the pound in


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## Jungle (Aug 17, 2014)

Got no issue with anyone NRing, done it myself a few times. 

I've tended to do it out of courtesy of my playing partners. Taking a few hacks out the bunker, only to throw it into another bunker or through the back of the green is no fun for your playing partners or the pace of play. I also believe it keeps the pace of play going, the last time I checked it does take some time to play a provisional, let alone two.

Not a big fan of walking off though.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Can for the sake of some just clarify. NR does not mean you don't hand your card in.


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## CMAC (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Can for the sake of some just clarify. NR does not mean you don't hand your card in.
		
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always hand my card in, always record my score on the computer, sign my card then post it in the appropriate box- even if the NR was at the 3rd  doesn't everyone


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## CMAC (Aug 17, 2014)

CMAC said:



			isn't that what your doing with Phil as well

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Damn and blast, spelled you're wrong

I'm a looser...................damn! I mean loser.

Their, that's better.........................blast!      I mean there, that's better.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Can for the sake of some just clarify. NR does not mean you don't hand your card in.
		
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I would guess at the point you decide to NR you simply no longer fill in a score, then sign the card and hand it in


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## bozza (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you are playing poorly - already getting .1 back and then shove two tee shots OOB - would you then tee up another ball ? 

There is no harm in putting in a NR when it's a pretty sensible thing to do - people can still be cut from an NR as our Vice Cap found put a week ago 

At times putting in an NR is a sensible thing to do
		
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Yup if i wasn't holding up play I would do it, i will always complete a competion round unless I physically can't do it, i can't see the problem. 

Also hitting 5 off the tee is it really going to slow play up that much? Extra 2 mins at most.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

I have often wondered why the powers to be have deemed that an NR justifies a .1 increase.


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## markgs (Aug 17, 2014)

i had a n/r in medal on 18th score was around my handicap, hit drive down 18th fairway but its blind. Thought it was middle of fairway, ball gone look for it with other members in group helped then group behind tee off so could not be bothered what is a n/r 0.1 + make it back next round


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## bozza (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I have often wondered why the powers to be have deemed that an NR justifies a .1 increase.
		
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Seriously!? 

Usually people who N/R are having a bad round so they are getting .1 back anyway so why shouldn't they?


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have a few people who are constantly not putting their card in after the round ( mainly because it's a poor score ) so we are thinking of actually imposing sanctions to people that don't at the very least put their scorecard into the box
		
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Can't really see the point of this (applying sanctions)!

A couple of questions for those who want sanctions applied.
What are you hoping to achieve? And why?


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## HawkeyeMS (Aug 17, 2014)

I don't like NR'ing and it is always a last resort, but sometimes I do, I always return my card though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Can't really see the point of this!

A couple of questions for those who want sanctions applied.
What are you hoping to achieve? And why?
		
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Well the sanctions are to encourage people to put their card in once the comp finishes - general courtesy for a start and then to help the people who do the cards that evening or the next day as well as helping out HC committee at annual review.

If a pro walks off without putting his card in he will be sanctioned


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I have often wondered why the powers to be have deemed that an NR justifies a .1 increase.
		
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What do you think an NR should mean ? No change on HC ?


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## williamalex1 (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have a few people who are constantly not putting their card in after the round ( mainly because it's a poor score ) so we are thinking of actually imposing sanctions to people that don't at the very least put their scorecard into the box
		
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At my club failure to put your completed scorecard into the box provided  n/r or not, means you are barred from entering the next comp.
Scores should also be entered into the computer n/r or not, you'll get a warning if you persist in not entering scores.
 You should also keep on marking your score even with a n/r at a few holes , as you could still be cut if you score well on the other holes.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			At my club failure to put your completed scorecard into the box provided  n/r or not, means you are barred from entering the next comp.
Scores should also be entered into the computer n/r or not, you'll get a warning if you persist in not entering scores.
 You should also keep on marking your score even with a n/r at a few holes , as you could still be cut if you score well on the other holes.
		
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I think the second part of this comment makes a really good point, I think if you NR you should continue scoring the rest of the round, however i did not know you could be cut on and NR


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

bozza said:



			Seriously!? 

Usually people who N/R are having a bad round so they are getting .1 back anyway so why shouldn't they?
		
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It's only my opinion but seriously ----- yes.

1. Unfortunately I have seen it abused and not been able to do anything about it.
2. Handicaps should be calculated on full rounds of golf.
3. A lot of people seem to think a non return means non return of card which delays competition closing no end of time, if you work on a committee you'll no what I mean and I understand why LPhils club are thinking of applying a sanction although I am not sure how that would work.

But as I said, it's only my opinion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			It's only my opinion but seriously ----- yes.

1. Unfortunately I have seen it abused and not been able to do anything about it.
2. Handicaps should be calculated on full rounds of golf.
3. A lot of people seem to think a non return means non return of card which delays competition closing no end of time, if you work on a committee you'll no what I mean and I understand why LPhils club are thinking of applying a sanction although I am not sure how that would work.

But as I said, it's only my opinion.
		
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So do you think HC should only be calculated on medal rounds only and not stableford ? 

Did they used to do that ?


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

So another scenario. A member plays approximately 50 competition rounds in the year and doesn't hand a card in for say 10 of those just because he was playing shocking that day and didn't complete quite a few of the holes. What is the issue with this? Again it's a genuine question, are the other 40 completed cards not enough of an indicator to the handicap committee etc? What is the actual advantage/disadvantage to not putting your card in generally?


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 17, 2014)

Taken from our club website and looks like they are starting to clamp down

1.A player may be banned by the Captains Golf Committee from competitions for a period not exceeding one month (6 weeks in the case of team competitions) for the following reasons:


1.Failing to turn up at the scheduled tee time without previously informing the Club, at least 24 hours in advance.
2.Failing to return their card or enter their scores via PSI including â€œNo Returnsâ€.

So clearly you can still NR but not returning a score at all will get you in trouble. As it should be in my opinion. Still rather than put a completed round in rather than NR but seems I'm in a minority. Cest la vie


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Taken from our club website and looks like they are starting to clamp down

1.A player may be banned by the Captains Golf Committee from competitions for a period not exceeding one month (6 weeks in the case of team competitions) for the following reasons:


1.Failing to turn up at the scheduled tee time without previously informing the Club, at least 24 hours in advance.
2.Failing to return their card or enter their scores via PSI including â€œNo Returnsâ€.

So clearly you can still NR but not returning a score at all will get you in trouble. As it should be in my opinion. Still rather than put a completed round in rather than NR but seems I'm in a minority. Cest la vie
		
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We have a two comp ban for point one there


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So do you think HC should only be calculated on medal rounds only and not stableford ? 

Did they used to do that ?
		
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Not saying that, and may have confused maters but a full round can be medal or stableford Q.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So another scenario. A member plays approximately 50 competition rounds in the year and doesn't hand a card in for say 10 of those just because he was playing shocking that day and didn't complete quite a few of the holes. What is the issue with this? Again it's a genuine question, are the other 40 completed cards not enough of an indicator to the handicap committee etc? What is the actual advantage/disadvantage to not putting your card in generally?
		
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 Because his h/c should have been increased if the cards had been entered, so he'd  be playing off a lower h/c . Which allows him to enter away open comps where there is an upper h/c limit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Not saying that, and may have confused maters but a full round can be medal or stableford Q.
		
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But an NR on one hole can also be a full round just like a blob in stableford ?

Non returning a score means the overall card is an NR but you can still get a HC cut if people continue to put their scores in and the stableford score means they have played below their HC

NR a whole card just gets counted as zero stableford points.


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well the sanctions are to encourage people to put their card in once the comp finishes - general courtesy for a start and then to help the people who do the cards that evening or the next day as well as helping out HC committee at annual review.
		
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Very dubious benefits - that don't warrant 'sanctions' - imo.

Simply Closing the Competition should present option to treat non-returned cards as N/Rs. There's no need to chase folk. Do they chase the guys that don't sign?

No need for sanctions when a question or quiet word should solve any issue - if there really is one. Presumably you have actually attempted to do that with the 'constant offenders'. What was their response?
Benefit of N/R cards for A/R are highly dubious. Possibly better to know that these cards have been 'kept' anyway.

Seems to me more of a niggle and perhaps a bit of bureaucratic 'little Hitler'-ism/self-importance - always to be discouraged imo!



Liverpoolphil said:



			If a pro walks off without putting his card in he will be sanctioned
		
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Completely different situation! And I agree with having some sort of sanction for Pros!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Very dubious benefits - that don't warrant 'sanctions' - imo.

Simply Closing the Competition should present option to treat non-returned cards as N/Rs. There's no need to chase folk. Do they chase the guys that don't sign?

No need for sanctions when a question or quiet word should solve any issue - if there really is one. Presumably you have actually attempted to do that with the 'constant offenders'. What was their response?
Benefit of N/R cards for A/R are highly dubious. Possibly better to know that these cards have been 'kept' anyway.

Seems to me more of a niggle and perhaps a bit of bureaucratic 'little Hitler'-ism/self-importance - always to be discouraged imo!



Completely different situation! And I agree with having some sort of sanction for Pros!
		
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Well the sanctions will only apply after a quiet word or a letter has been sent and the offenders still continue to do the same. 

It will be the same for everyone - its the same with people not entering their score into the computer - they will get the same quiet words.

Notices will be displayed informing members of the need to ensure their score is inputted into the PSI and also that their card is entered into the box. 

If people dont sign their card they get DQ'ed - quite simple.

And no different to a pro not putting his card in.


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## dontfancythisputt (Aug 17, 2014)

A deterrent for not handing cards in is required as it stops people walking off as soon as the 0.1 back is inevitable which can be as early as the 2nd hole. (Seen two low handicappers walk in after 3 holes! Both claimed injury but both were playing proper pants)

Some grace is however required as there are genuinely times when people cant complete the round because of things other than injury such as at least half a dozen chaps who I have played with that have declared that the wife/partner is due to give birth any day and they really may have to leave.

Its always joked about the career best round at these occasions and strangely the response is always " in that case she will have to hold it in!"


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But an NR on one hole can also be a full round just like a blob in stableford ?

Non returning a score means the overall card is an NR but you can still get a HC cut if people continue to put their scores in and the stableford score means they have played below their HC

NR a whole card just gets counted as zero stableford points.
		
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I may not be on your wavelength so may be a tad confused but in stableford you don't have to return a score on a given hole but you do in a medal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I may not be on your wavelength so may be a tad confused but in stableford you don't have to return a score on a given hole but you do in a medal.
		
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But HC are all done by stableford score 

When you put in a medal score - your HC is then adjusted using the stableford score for that medal 

So when playing a medal - if you have a ten on the first its only counted as a blob ( 2 over par of the hole ) for HC purposes

You could have a net 75 but a stableford point score of 40 and get a cut. You can NR on one hole put still continue to put a score on each hole and still get a cut because your stableford score was better than HC


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

HC are not done by stableford scores but in a medal round a score on a certain hole may have a stableford adjustment made to that score if required.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			HC are not done by stableford scores but in a medal round a score on a certain hole may have a stableford adjustment made to that score if required.
		
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Is it every hole that is over is rounded down to a double bogey so every score not recorded would be a double bogey.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			Is it every hole that is over is rounded down to a double bogey so every score not recorded would be a double bogey.
		
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Net double bogey.


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## patricks148 (Aug 17, 2014)

Never NR. In fact i think ive only ever NR's once since 2006 when i started.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Net double bogey.
		
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Sorry that's what I meant


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Q4
http://www.congu.com/faqs/what_affects_handicap.pdf


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			HC are not done by stableford scores but in a medal round a score on a certain hole may have a stableford adjustment made to that score if required.
		
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Ok ill try and put it a better way 

What about people that are having a poor round that would mean they are getting .1 back but they dont want that - so they NR is that not the same as people who look for the .1 to get their HC higher 

Which ever way things are done people will try and find a way around it 

A medal score with a NR score on one or more holes is still a completed round of golf with both signatures on the card. That card should be valid for HC changes - either .1 or the relevant cut. 

Every time someone enters a qualifying comp their HC is on the line.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Unfortunately experience with players and NRs with me hasn't been great so my views are tainted which I accept.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately experience with players and NRs with me hasn't been great so my views are tainted which I accept.
		
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A few doing it on purpose to get .1 back to ensure their HC goes up ?


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Because his h/c should have been increased if the cards had been entered, so he'd  be playing off a lower h/c . Which allows him to enter away open comps where there is an upper h/c limit.
		
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You still get 0.1 back for not entering a card so I don't understand what you mean?


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			You still get 0.1 back for not entering a card so I don't understand what you mean?
		
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I'm at the stage that if you cannot be arrsed to hand in a card I cannot be arrsed to enter you into the comp. then you don't get anything back.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A few doing it on purpose to get .1 back to ensure their HC goes up ?
		
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Have a like


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Have a like
		
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Im not sure what can be done to stop them as well


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Im not sure what can be done to stop them as well
		
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I guess the only way of stopping this is taking action if paterns are noticed


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			I guess the only way of stopping this is taking action if paterns are noticed
		
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But someone could be just going through a horrid run of form maybe ? hard to really proof that the person is deliberatly aiming for .1 ?


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## williamalex1 (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			You still get 0.1 back for not entering a card so I don't understand what you mean?
		
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 Ok , what if it was lower scores he forgot to return , preventing his h/c going down , there's no way the h/c secretary can tell if it was a good or bad score because there's no card.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Ok , what if it was lower scores he forgot to return , preventing his h/c going down , there's no way the h/c secretary can tell if it was a good or bad score because there's no card.
		
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Have like


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But someone could be just going through a horrid run of form maybe ? hard to really proof that the person is deliberatly aiming for .1 ?
		
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True, my friend is on one of these at the moment. Poor guy has now had 16 0.1's though he has not NR on any


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			True, my friend is on one of these at the moment. Poor guy has now had 16 0.1's though he has not NR on any
		
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It is awful when it happens - i had the same stage about 3 years ago - .1 after .1 for about 5 months solid


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Ok , what if it was lower scores he forgot to return , preventing his h/c going down , there's no way the h/c secretary can tell if it was a good or bad score because there's no card.
		
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So this fella is paying to enter a competition and then not entering the good scores and possibly winning so that there handicap doesn't go down? Really?  
Forgetting how daft that sounds, can someone please explain what the negatives are when somebody doesn't return a card? Does it effect the CSS? Does it effect there handicap? Does it effect the rest of the field? What is effected differently by entering a score 15 above your handicap or not returning your card? This is a genuine question regarding this as it happens quite frequently at my club and nobody seems in the least bit bothered by bit.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is awful when it happens - i had the same stage about 3 years ago - .1 after .1 for about 5 months solid
		
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I really feel for the guy, we moved club end of last year I do not think he has managed one cut since we moved and i'm not sure there have been many buffers either.

I'm sure he will come back from it he is a pretty decent player


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So this fella is paying to enter a competition and then not entering the good scores and possibly winning so that there handicap doesn't go down? Really?  
Forgetting how daft that sounds, can someone please explain what the negatives are when somebody doesn't return a card? Does it effect the CSS? Does it effect there handicap? Does it effect the rest of the field? What is effected differently by entering a score 15 above your handicap or not returning your card? This is a genuine question regarding this as it happens quite frequently at my club and nobody seems in the least bit bothered by bit.
		
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Worth a read

http://cartonhousemembers.com/mysitecaddy/sitedata/cartonhousemembers.com/docs/bulletins/14765.pdf


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So this fella is paying to enter a competition and then not entering the good scores and possibly winning so that there handicap doesn't go down? Really?  
Forgetting how daft that sounds, can someone please explain what the negatives are when somebody doesn't return a card? Does it effect the CSS? Does it effect there handicap? Does it effect the rest of the field? What is effected differently by entering a score 15 above your handicap or not returning your card? This is a genuine question regarding this as it happens quite frequently at my club and nobody seems in the least bit bothered by bit.
		
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It gets treated the same as an NR - so its another score one above the buffer. So the effect on the CSS and the rest of the field is very minimal if any

We are looking to have quiet words because its a pain for the guys doing the cards the next day - trying to make life easier for those volunteers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			I really feel for the guy, we moved club end of last year I do not think he has managed one cut since we moved and i'm not sure there have been many buffers either.

I'm sure he will come back from it he is a pretty decent player
		
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Does he play bounce games ? Or possibly away days ? Just need to find one good score to get a bit of confidence possibly ?


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It gets treated the same as an NR - so its another score one above the buffer. So the effect on the CSS and the rest of the field is very minimal if any

We are looking to have quiet words because its a pain for the guys doing the cards the next day - trying to make life easier for those volunteers.
		
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In what way? If the card isn't there its just a DQ isn't it and one less card to check? I'm possibly  being naive having never had to do it but wouldn't it actually be easier with less cards to check?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			In what way? If the card isn't there its just a DQ isn't it and one less card to check? I'm possibly  being naive having never had to do it but wouldn't it actually be easier with less cards to check?
		
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Have to go through the cards to see who hasnt put their card in the PSI or who hasnt actually returned their card full stop.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			In what way? If the card isn't there its just a DQ isn't it and one less card to check? I'm possibly  being naive having never had to do it but wouldn't it actually be easier with less cards to check?
		
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Officially they still get entered on to the system. I presume you read the link.


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does he play bounce games ? Or possibly away days ? Just need to find one good score to get a bit of confidence possibly ?
		
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We had a chat about it after the round, in a normal round he is getting better, I think what really got him was he went to the range and hit the ball well then got on the course and lost it once a bad score came.

He was telling me he is just thinking about what not to do and what could go wrong not thinking about what to do if that makes sence


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## HawkeyeMS (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I'm at the stage that if you cannot be arrsed to hand in a card I cannot be arrsed to enter you into the comp. then you don't get anything back.
		
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I may have this wrong, but are you saying that you are the one who closes the comp and if someone doesn't return their card, you don't enter them?


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Officially they still get entered on to the system. I presume you read the link.
		
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So I have a list of people who entered the comp. I have a pile of score cards. I work my way through the cards either checking the cards against the scores entered on the computer or I manually add the scores myself. Once I've finished with the pile of cards any name not checked off the list of entries is automatically allocated a NR on the computer. Do I have that right?


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I may have this wrong, but are you saying that you are the one who closes the comp and if someone doesn't return their card, you don't enter them?
		
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I said I was at that stage and I do enter the cards.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I'm at the stage that if you cannot be arrsed to hand in a card I cannot be arrsed to enter you into the comp. then you don't get anything back.
		
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Edit. - hence why we are looking to have sanctions in place


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## williamalex1 (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So this fella is paying to enter a competition and then not entering the good scores and possibly winning so that there handicap doesn't go down? Really?  
Forgetting how daft that sounds, can someone please explain what the negatives are when somebody doesn't return a card? Does it effect the CSS? Does it effect there handicap? Does it effect the rest of the field? What is effected differently by entering a score 15 above your handicap or not returning your card? This is a genuine question regarding this as it happens quite frequently at my club and nobody seems in the least bit bothered by bit.
		
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He could have n/rd at a couple of holes and be out of contention in a stroke play comp, but still be due a h/c reduction.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So I have a list of people who entered the comp. I have a pile of score cards. I work my way through the cards either checking the cards against the scores entered on the computer or I manually add the scores myself. Once I've finished with the pile of cards any name not checked off the list of entries is automatically allocated a NR on the computer. Do I have that right?
		
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And a DQ as well yes.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So I have a list of people who entered the comp. I have a pile of score cards. I work my way through the cards either checking the cards against the scores entered on the computer or I manually add the scores myself. Once I've finished with the pile of cards any name not checked off the list of entries is automatically allocated a NR on the computer. Do I have that right?
		
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Nearly, first you run around the club house checking that somebody has not just forgotten/doesn't think they need to do it straight away or just to busy having a pint at the bar.

It wears you down after a few years.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Nearly, first you run around the club house checking that somebody has not just forgotten/doesn't think they need to do it straight away or just to busy having a pint at the bar.

It wears you down after a few years.
		
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Well there is your problem.  Have a cut off point for putting your card in and if the card isn't there its tough and you are DQ. I can understand why it would be annoying if you had to chase around for the cards so that's the thing I would be trying to change personally.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			He could have n/rd at a couple of holes and be out of contention in a stroke play comp, but still be due a h/c reduction.
		
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I'm sure most people would still enter a card in those circumstances. We are talking about people who are way over handicap with no chance of being near buffer.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			Well there is your problem.  Have a cut off point for putting your card in and if the card isn't there its tough and you are DQ. I can understand why it would be annoying if you had to chase around for the cards so that's the thing I would be trying to change personally.
		
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Life's not that simple but I agree. By the way, you do know what happens to a handicap if you get DQd don't you.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And a DQ as well yes.
		
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So does it take more time and effort to check a card is correct and/or enter the scores or just mark that person as NR and then DQ them?


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Life's not that simple but I agree. By the way, you do know what happens to a handicap if you get DQd don't you.
		
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Not a clue. I assume you just get 0.1 back?


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So does it take more time and effort to check a card is correct and/or enter the scores or just mark that person as NR and then DQ them?
		
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Two completely different things. If you can find the bit in the rules that says the non handing in of a card results in a DQ I would be grateful.


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have to go through the cards to see who hasnt put their card in the PSI or who hasnt actually returned their card full stop.
		
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If it's the Club 2000 system that I remember, Closing the comp highlighted the fact that cards were missing. I'm sure there is an equivalent in the PSI system (we didn't have that) so it shouldn't be an issue - though a good check that all cards have been matched/checked.

It should be a simple process - there should be a list/report - to identify those players. If the cards are sorted into the same order as the list/report (alphabetically?), it should be a relatively trivial matching process. How many players do you have in big comps? I used to be able to manually create, enter and close 2 comps of around 70 players each in about 2 hours - 30-40 mins of which was the Entry List.

I'd think it's the guys who haven't put their card into PSI that are the bigger pain. That requires the volunteer to actually enter the scores - significantly more time consuming, though not for someone with keyboard skills (as above)!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So does it take more time and effort to check a card is correct and/or enter the scores or just mark that person as NR and then DQ them?
		
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We close our comps the day after - anythign that means the guys have to do extra work means them having to do more time than should be really needed.

At the end of the day anyone not putting the score in the psi or not handing their card in is just someone being lazy - and them not doing that means someone else is put out ( even if its for just a couple of mins )


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Two completely different things. If you can find the bit in the rules that says the non handing in of a card results in a DQ I would be grateful.
		
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So is it a DQ or not? I'm not trying to be clever here but if you close the competition and cards are missing those people are NR or DQ whatever the actual rule is. So is it actually more time consuming if the card isn't there as opposed to being there and needing checking and/or possibly manually entering onto the computer?


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			If it's the Club 2000 system that I remember, Closing the comp highlighted the fact that cards were missing. I'm sure there is an equivalent in the PSI system (we didn't have that) so it shouldn't be an issue - though a good check that all cards have been matched/checked.

I'd think it's the guys who haven't put their card into PSI that are the bigger pain. That requires the volunteer to actually enter the scores - significantly more time consuming!
		
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Not all clubs have the PSI system so committee members have to do the manual job which I don't mind as long as the cards come in.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So is it a DQ or not? I'm not trying to be clever here but if you close the competition and cards are missing those people are NR or DQ whatever the actual rule is. So is it actually more time consuming if the card isn't there as opposed to being there and needing checking and/or possibly manually entering onto the computer?
		
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It's not a DQ for not handing in a card and someone will have to do something manually.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We close our comps the day after - anythign that means the guys have to do extra work means them having to do more time than should be really needed.

At the end of the day anyone not putting the score in the psi or not handing their card in is just someone being lazy - and them not doing that means someone else is put out ( even if its for just a couple of mins )
		
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But is it extra work?

2 competitions both with 100 entrants.

Competition A all 100 entrants hand a card in so that's 100 cards that need checking to see if they are filled in correctly and the scores match the scores entered onto the computer.

Competition B only 10 entrants return a card so that's 10 cards that need checking etc and the other 90 are automatically given a NR.

Which competition would be sorted out quicker?


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## williamalex1 (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			I'm sure most people would still enter a card in those circumstances. We are talking about people who are way over handicap with no chance of being near buffer.
		
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There are players who manipulate their h/cs , either to keep it artificially  high, or lower.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			But is it extra work?

2 competitions both with 100 entrants.

Competition A all 100 entrants hand a card in so that's 100 cards that need checking to see if they are filled in correctly and the scores match the scores entered onto the computer.

Competition B only 10 entrants return a card so that's 10 cards that need checking etc and the other 90 are automatically given a NR.

Which competition would be sorted out quicker?
		
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You would still need to enter 90 names into the PSI - its still extra work not needed for volunteers

Or 120 entrants - only 100 into the PSI - only 115 cards handed in 

That means extra time for the guys to sort out the cards looking to see who hasnt entered their card - that then needs entering - then enter the names who havent entered their card then DQ and then type why they are DQed. 

It happens every single the guys do it and they are getting frustrated by peoples lazyness.

Oh and we dont check every single card has been entered - only the ones whose score is different on the card than that is on the print out


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			There are players who manipulate their h/cs , either to keep it artificially  high, or lower.
		
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I'm sure there are but habitually NRing a card is probably not the way most of them do it. NR a card and you still get 0.1 back. Doing that regularly after a good score is probably the most obvious way of trying to manipulate your handicap.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			But is it extra work?
		
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Become a committee member and find out.


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You would still need to enter 90 names into the PSI - its still extra work not needed for volunteers

Or 120 entrants - only 100 into the PSI - only 115 cards handed in 

That means extra time for the guys to sort out the cards looking to see who hasnt entered their card - that then needs entering - then enter the names who havent entered their card then DQ and then type why they are DQed. 

It happens every single the guys do it and they are getting frustrated by peoples lazyness.

Oh and we dont check every single card has been entered - only the ones whose score is different on the card than that is on the print out
		
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While I continue to challenge the real benefit of sanctions, you should have a look at Decisions M, N and P in the UHS Manual. You could amend Conditions of Competition as appropriate!


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## williamalex1 (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Become a committee member and find out. 

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:thup: well said. people don't realise the amount of unpaid work involved .


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You would still need to enter 90 names into the PSI - its still extra work not needed for volunteers

Or 120 entrants - only 100 into the PSI - only 115 cards handed in 

That means extra time for the guys to sort out the cards looking to see who hasnt entered their card - that then needs entering - then enter the names who havent entered their card then DQ and then type why they are DQed. 

It happens every single the guys do it and they are getting frustrated by peoples lazyness.

Oh and we dont check every single card has been entered - only the ones whose score is different on the card than that is on the print out
		
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Start with the cards you have,  check the cards against the scores entered or the names on the list. Any other name on the sheet without a card is NR/DQ. Is it really a huge problem?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			Start with the cards you have,  check the cards against the scores entered or the names on the list. Any other name on the sheet without a card is NR/DQ. Is it really a huge problem?
		
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You still have to sit on the pc and then enter the dq into the pc - enter their name - then DQ them writing on there why they are DQed 

Im guessing the only way for you to see is to actually do it 

Tomorrow myself and one other have two comps to sort out plus one junior - it shoudl be about 30 mins each one but will take double that.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Become a committee member and find out. 

Click to expand...

We have competitions on a thursday Saturday and Sunday. The cards and results are checked on a monday and are generally online by 10am monday morning. We have plenty of people that NR and it doesn't seem to slow that process down.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You still have to sit on the pc and then enter the dq into the pc - enter their name - then DQ them writing on there why they are DQed 

Im guessing the only way for you to see is to actually do it 

Tomorrow myself and one other have two comps to sort out plus one junior - it shoudl be about 30 mins each one but will take double that.
		
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Aren't you only DQ if you enter a score but don't enter a card? Otherwise its just enter a name and NR?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			Aren't you only DQ if you enter a score but don't enter a card? Otherwise its just enter a name and NR?
		
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What about the ones that doesnt enter the score and also dont enter their card ? 

Again its extra work not needed


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## chellie (Aug 17, 2014)

Believe this is what happens at ours:

No card returned â€“ Disqualified and Letter with 1 Match Ban​​​​Card not input onto Computer â€“ Warning Letter


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about the ones that doesnt enter the score and also dont enter their card ? 

Again its extra work not needed
		
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If someone has entered a score and a card what is the process?

If someone hasn't entered a score or a card what is the process?

Again I'm naively assuming that its a case of entering a name and clicking the NR option? As opposed to checking the score entered against the score on the card and clicking the confirmation button?


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## williamalex1 (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			If someone has entered a score and a card what is the process?

If someone hasn't entered a score or a card what is the process?

Again I'm naively assuming that its a case of entering a name and clicking the NR option? As opposed to checking the score entered against the score on the card and clicking the confirmation button?
		
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The card is also signed by a marker to verify the score, no card no verification


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			If someone has entered a score and a card what is the process?
		
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You ensure the two scores are the same - if there is a difference then check the card to the psi




			If someone hasn't entered a score or a card what is the process?
		
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You then enter the name - then the NR then you click the DQ - then you enter the reason why ( is you type card not returned ) 




			Again I'm naively assuming that its a case of entering a name and clicking the NR option? As opposed to checking the score entered against the score on the card and clicking the confirmation button?
		
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If its just one person then its an extra couple of mins work - if its ten to 20 people that turns into half an hour extra work not needed and only happening because people are being lazy.


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## Airlie_Andy (Aug 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You ensure the two scores are the same - if there is a difference then check the card to the psi



You then enter the name - then the NR then you click the DQ - then you enter the reason why ( is you type card not returned ) 



If its just one person then its an extra couple of mins work - if its ten to 20 people that turns into half an hour extra work not needed and only happening because people are being lazy.
		
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So you are DQ if you dont enter a card? It's not just NR?

Seems like better software and processes could save you an awful lot of time?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2014)

Airlie_Andy said:



			So you are DQ if you dont enter a card? It's not just NR?

Seems like better software and processes could save you an awful lot of time?
		
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Yes you are DQ if you dont enter a card


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes you are DQ if you dont enter a card
		
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Are you sure that there isn't an automatic process for this? There certainly was - which could have a standard message - back in the pre PSI version (quite some years ago). That noted them as 'No Return' rather than DQ though. I think 'No Return' is the correct way to mark the them. I believe there's a subtle difference in the Handicap History too - though my detailed knowledge is somewhat out of date.

Presumably the BSR interface (if you have it) also eliminates the need for Entry Lists to be manually created too.

I'd suggest you contact Club Systems and state your problem, which must be pretty common, and see what they suggest. Monday is traditionally not a great day to contact them though - they are normally pretty busy supporting clubs that have had problems with weekend comps.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Are you sure that there isn't an automatic process for this?

There certainly was - which could have a standard message - back in the pre PSI version (quite some years ago). Presumably the BSR interface (if you have it) also eliminates the need for Entry Lists to be manually created too.

I'd suggest you contact Club Systems and state your problem, which must be pretty common, and see what they suggest. Monday is traditionally not a great day to contact them though - they are normally pretty busy supporting clubs that have had problems with weekend comps.
		
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Can you tell me how exactly a computer knows that someone hasnt put a card in the box to automatically DQ them ?

Just completed some training with Club Systems so have no need to contact them as we have no issues with our system - just the lazy members to deal with


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Can you tell me how exactly a computer knows that someone hasnt put a card in the box to automatically DQ them ?*

Just completed some training with Club Systems so have no need to contact them as we have no issues with our system - just the lazy members to deal with
		
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All those on the Entry List where no Card exists! They will be potential NRs - and you could well be prompted to have the system automatically mark them as such! Of course, the Entry List should have been verified/confirmed earlier (pretty much first thing).

I'm just suggesting you check (it's free!) that there isn't a process built in that would work around the lazy members. That issue has been around forever and there was a simple solution in place that may have an equivalent now that you are not be aware of - but are solving manually.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			All those on the Entry List where no Card exists! They will be potential NRs - and you could well be prompted to have the system automatically mark them as such! Of course, the Entry List should have been verified/confirmed earlier (pretty much first thing).
		
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What about people who enter their card into the PSI but dont put it into the box ? 

And we have people who can turn up on the day and can enter the medal then put their card in right up until its light enough to do so - they arent on a computer entry list. 

No system will ever be perfectly automatic - always need human interaction.

The easiest and simplest thing is "drum roll" - people put their card into the system - sign the card then put it in the box as detailed out in comp rules set out by clubs - dont do that then face the sanctions laid out by the club - simple.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about people who enter their card into the PSI but dont put it into the box ? 

And we have people who can turn up on the day and can enter the medal then put their card in right up until its light enough to do so - they arent on a computer entry list. 

No system will ever be perfectly automatic - always need human interaction.
		
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The first lot will be identifiable as in PSI but not in Cards.

Second lot (see below though) will be in Cards but not in Entry List. It's important Entry List is accurate because....

How could you tell if one, or several, of the 'on the day' guys DOESN'T return a card?!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			The first lot will be identifiable as in PSI but not in Cards.
		
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Human Interaction required to see which cards are missing 



			Second lot (see below though) will be in Cards but not in Entry List. It's important Entry List is accurate because....

How could you tell if one, or several, of the 'on the day' guys DOESN'T return a card?!!!!
		
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Again it will still need human interaction to check the entry list is correct 

No matter how much you try there will always be a need for people to interact to ensure everything is ok 

Ill say it again - the easiest and simplest thing for people to do is "*input their cards into the PSI - sign it and then drop it into the box*" - something every single golfer is fully capable of doing - simple as that.

Going round in circles now - so wont hopefully need to say the bold bit again


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

I'm not saying there isn't going to be the need for manual input - or checking. But the system can help identify and handle those 'problem' No Return cases - and I've seen it done! 

You still haven't answered my query about how/whether you handle the 'on the day/rollups' who don't return a card. Its imperative that they get placed on the Entry List!

A quick phone call to the Club System Support Desk should confirm whether there is an 'auto NR' facility for the 'Entry List minus Cards' players (of which 'PSI minus Cards' will be a subset). There certainly used to be!


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## Fyldewhite (Aug 18, 2014)

In order for this to work properly you need to have "Player sign in" facility in operation. Player turns up, takes card out of box or whatever, enters the comp on the computer, pays money and away he goes. The computer then know's exactly who has a card and if no score is entered knows who hasn't returned one. Some won't put the physical card in the box at the end, some will and won't enter in the computer but that doesn't really matter a they will all be 0.1's anyway. It does stop players having the choice of whether they get 0.1 or not though. All this functionality is configurable and like most software needs to be set up right to give you the right outputs. ie exactly how your club wants to operate. There's no right or wrong way, just what's right for each club.


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## Old Skier (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not saying there isn't going to be the need for manual input - or checking. But the system can help identify and handle those 'problem' No Return cases - and I've seen it done! 

You still haven't answered my query about how/whether you handle the 'on the day/rollups' who don't return a card. Its imperative that they get placed on the Entry List!
		
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Just to (I hope) clarify this.  A lot of  us dont bother with an entry list because this alone causes extra work and time that most of us could do without.  If you did do this there is a automatic matching process.  As with all systems, the information out is only as good as the info in.

LPhil, Im not sure how you DQ people for a non return, a link to the rule would be handy.


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## Old Skier (Aug 18, 2014)

Further to this, obviously Club 2000 are not the only providers and I have no idea how the different systems cope with this.  Believe it or not, I know of a club that still does it all manually.


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## HawkeyeMS (Aug 18, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Nearly, first you run around the club house checking that somebody has not just forgotten/doesn't think they need to do it straight away or just to busy having a pint at the bar.

It wears you down after a few years.
		
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Don't the rules say the player should return the card as soon as possible? If you're closing the comp then I would say players have had enough time and if they haven't done it then it's tough. They shouldn't need reminding and they won't delay\forget more than once.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Just to (I hope) clarify this.  A lot of  us dont bother with an entry list because this alone causes extra work and time that most of us could do without.  If you did do this there is a automatic matching process.  As with all systems, the information out is only as good as the info in.

LPhil, Im not sure how you DQ people for a non return, a link to the rule would be handy.
		
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Just to clarify - it's a DQ for a card not returned


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## cookelad (Aug 18, 2014)

I buffered an NR last year, playing decent golf then made a real hash of the 12th - put a ball in the bushes found an identical ball thinking it was mine played on tothe green found out it wasn't mine and with people stood in the fairway I just picked up, played the rest of the round as if I'd just blobbed in stableford!

We get a lot of NR's from people losing balls on 12 and 16 as nobody expects their ball not to be found so they don't play provisionals, then rather than walk back up the steep slope to the tee they just jack it in (unless they've got a good card going!)


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## Fyldewhite (Aug 18, 2014)

cookelad said:



			I buffered an NR last year, playing decent golf then made a real hash of the 12th - put a ball in the bushes found an identical ball thinking it was mine played on tothe green found out it wasn't mine and with people stood in the fairway I just picked up, played the rest of the round as if I'd just blobbed in stableford!
		
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Absolutely the right thing to do.

If I'd been on a decent score playing alongside you and you had walked back, letting the next group through, saying stuff like "I've never NR'd and I never will" in order to get it round in a nett 80..........I'd have been less than chuffed I can tell you.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Further to this, obviously Club 2000 are not the only providers and I have no idea how the different systems cope with this.  Believe it or not, I know of a club that still does it all manually.
		
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Given that he has mentioned/accesses HDID, I have, reasonably imo, assumed his club uses C2k. I do believe they also market another package too. 



Old Skier said:



			Just to (I hope) clarify this.  A lot of  us dont bother with an entry list because this alone causes extra work and time that most of us could do without.  If you did do this there is a automatic matching process.  As with all systems, the information out is only as good as the info in.

LPhil, Im not sure how you DQ people for a non return, a link to the rule would be handy.
		
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Good point about the Entry List being optional - another assumption on my part, that I should have queried! That's the benefit of having one, though with the cost of setting it up initially! Most Booking systems I know of will have an interface to C2k - certainly BRS does - so it should be pretty automated. @Phil. Do you actually use/create the Entry List? My most recent experience has been with IntelligentGolf, where it's all integrated (including PSI) with the (manual at the time) Tee Booking.

Of course, the consequence of not using Entry List is that NRs are not obvious. The question then is 'How are then identified?' How do you do so? I think Phil actually went through the DQ/NR process a page or so ago. I think that process probably does produce the right Player Handicap Record, though the Comp Report probably states DQ rather than the NR the automated process generates.


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## Old Skier (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just to clarify - it's a DQ for a card not returned
		
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Cheers, when you have a mo, no rush a link would be useful so I can inform the comps committe at the next meeting. Of for golf and not cards now


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## Duckster (Aug 18, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Cheers, when you have a mo, no rush a link would be useful so I can inform the comps committe at the next meeting. Of for golf and not cards now 

Click to expand...

In stroke play it's Rule 6.6b:

b. Signing and Returning Score Card 
After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible. 
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:
Disqualification.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=6&subRuleNum=6


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## patricks148 (Aug 18, 2014)

the only thing with NR is its a bit of a double edged sword.

for me the main reward in a comp is a cut, so why should you be cut for not completing the round???

Yes it Stops  bandits getting away with NR ing when they have a good card going!!


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			.....
Yes it Stops  bandits getting away with NR ing when they have a good card going!!
		
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How does it do that? Or do you mean that sanctions for excessive NRs would.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The easiest and simplest thing is "drum roll" - people put their card into the system - sign the card then put it in the box as detailed out in comp rules set out by clubs - dont do that then face the sanctions laid out by the club - simple.
		
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This thread seems to involve confusion about this latter element!

For handicapping purposes the only relevant sanctions are detailed in the CONGU manual which clearly states what should happen in all situations.
For competition results it's the rules of golf
Sanctions around fines and future competition entry etc should be documented in a clubs conditions of competition.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

An entry sheet is looked after by the pro shop and again is manual entry on the day or pre booking on the psi 

Today we closed the weekends comps 

Would have been done and dusted after about 40 mins but took us 90mins as each comp had over 30 cards that hadn't been entered into the comp - plus a few cards not returned , handicap not on card or card not signed 

It amazes how many don't do the basic requirements when sorting out their cards


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## NorfolkShaun (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			An entry sheet is looked after by the pro shop and again is manual entry on the day or pre booking on the psi 

Today we closed the weekends comps 

Would have been done and dusted after about 40 mins but took us 90mins as each comp had over 30 cards that hadn't been entered into the comp - plus a few cards not returned , handicap not on card or card not signed 

It amazes how many don't do the basic requirements when sorting out their cards
		
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This must be very annoying to say the least, maybe a quick note on the cards to remind people of the requirements of each player to assist to volunteers inputting the information.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

NorfolkShaun said:



			This must be very annoying to say the least, maybe a quick note on the cards to remind people of the requirements of each player to assist to volunteers inputting the information.
		
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That note for requirements was placed on cards 3 months ago 

Soon the note with the sanctions will be placed ( coming into force next year ) 

And yeah it is a little annoying


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			An entry sheet is looked after by the pro shop and again is manual entry on the day or pre booking on the psi 

Today we closed the weekends comps 

Would have been done and dusted after about 40 mins but took us 90mins as *each comp had over 30 cards that hadn't been entered into the comp* - plus a few cards not returned , handicap not on card or card not signed 

It amazes how many don't do the basic requirements when sorting out their cards
		
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The bold bit is the area that you need to address imo! *A few* (3 or 4?) NRs and DQs, but *10 times that number of Cards to Add to the Entry List*. That's where the vast amount of 'unnecessary' work is.

Why/How does that happen?! And you still haven't answered my question about how you identify guys not entered into the comp that then don't return a card - I don't believe you can! 

Making sure the Entry List is accurate is the only way! I'd be very surprised if the system can't 'auto-NR' the Non-Returns 'automatically'.

You are, unfortunately, always going to get *a few* of the other glitches. But *30 cards not on the Entry List tells me something is wrong about the Sign-Up/Sign-In process!* 

Perhaps you should check how several of those happen. It can't be a big deal to Enter via the PSI. That should take any load off the Pro Shop, who probably don't see any benefit in doing that task - though you could discuss it with them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

They enter the comp in the pro shop if they are not on the original list - their names are written down in ink by the pro. We then check the start list and compare it to the cards returned in the box and the cards entered into the computer !When did i say "30 cards not on the entry list" - Its 30 Cards people havent bothered to put into the computer after they have finished the round - ie they havent put their score into the PSI - because they are lazy.

Here it is in simple terms for you 

1. Player A puts himself down for a tee time a few weeks in advance either on the PSI or at home

2. Player B turns up on the day - the PSI is no longer active for entry so the player goes into the pro shop - plays his fee and they write his name on the tee time sheet

3. Player A and B go out have a great round - laughing and joking sinking birdies etc 

4. They tot up their scores - both shoot 65's and have a cuddle 

5. They then just slide their scorecard into the box 

6. Go home - have a nice time celebrating the weekend golf

7. The next day the very helpful volunteers then pick up all the cards - the tee sheets with the additional entries and run the print of the scores for the comp

8. 112 entries on the tee sheet - 78 Scores on the PC - uh oh - mismatch - Said volunteers now have to find all the cards that havent been inputted into the PC and then manually input them in themselves -  said volunteers then spend 30 mins doing basic stuff that everyone should be doing themselves 

8. Once the cards have been put into the PC - the said volunteers see if there are any missing cards - DQ the offenders - have a cup of tea and a biscuit and go home 

Im going to guess thats how most clubs do it - i really do hope you can now see it and there is no more of the same question.

I thank you


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			8. 112 entries on the tee sheet - 78 Scores on the PC - uh oh - mismatch - Said volunteers now have to find all the cards that havent been inputted into the PC and then manually input them in themselves -  said volunteers then spend 30 mins doing basic stuff that everyone should be doing themselves
		
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That's the problem then.

By making it a Condition of Competition that Players must enter scores into PSI, you simply treat any that don't as NRs! And the system automatically does it - along with the real NRs! The Congu Decisions I referred to certainly allow it - or other sanctions.

Your use of 'comp' to mean 'computer' was rather confusing!

And the problems you are describing here are rather different from those of your original post about sanctions - post 47! 



Liverpoolphil said:



			We have a few people who are constantly not putting their card in after the round ( mainly because it's a poor score ) so we are thinking of actually imposing sanctions to people that don't at the very least put their scorecard into the box
		
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Neither Player A nor B would flag as requiring sanctions in the example above, but both have caused volunteers extra work! 

It's the ones that don't enter the score into PSI (112 - 78 - Real NRs) that are the time consuming ones. NRs might get the message across - and will certainly save the volunteers time - but they should also be told - and obviously a general warning/reminder made some time before you start doing it.

So sort the PSI Entry of scores issue out. Is there a bottleneck? Does the system close/turn off before all players are back? 

And having Pro Shop write names down is a bit antiquated - though probably an unavoidable interfacing issue.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's the problem then.

By making it a Condition of Competition that Players must enter scores into PSI, you simply treat any that don't as NRs! And the system Automatically does it! Though identifying and entering 30 scores should take 20 mins max - I could do 70+ in 30 mins, including creating the Entry List. The Congu Decisions I referred to certainly allow it - or other sanctions.

Your use of 'comp' to mean 'computer' was rather confusing!

And the problems you are describing here are rather different from those of your original post about sanctions - post 47! 



Neither Player A nor B would flag as requiring sanctions in the example above, but both have caused volunteers extra work! 

It's the ones that don't enter the score into PSI (112 - 78 - Real NRs) that are the time consuming ones. NRs might get the message across - and will certainly save the volunteers time - but they should also be told - and obviously a general warning/reminder made some time before you start doing it.

So sort the PSI Entry of scores issue out. Is there a bottleneck? Does the system close/turn off before all players are back? 

And having Pro Shop write names down is a bit antiquated - though probably an unavoidable interfacing issue.
		
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I have explained it all nice and simply to you - the issue is plain and simple - lazy people - end of , nothing more to say or add.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have explained it all nice and simply to you - the issue is plain and simple - lazy people - end of , nothing more to say or add.
		
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Indeed!

But the sanctions for what you described in post 47 won't solve them!

Sanctions for not entering cards into PSI - on top of the NR - might. But you need to ensure it is part of the Conditions of Competition - and give decent warning. The 'real' NRs don't appear to be a problem - and the automatic process, that I'm almost certain exists, handles them anyway. They may not even need sanctions - as they are not really causing a problem!

Education - about the unacceptable burden caused by about 30% of players - is the way to get the message across properly imo. The 'Singapore approach' if you like!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed!

But the sanctions for what you described in post 47 won't solve them!

Sanctions for not entering cards into PSI - on top of the NR - might. But you need to ensure it is part of the Conditions of Competition - and give decent warning. Education - about the unacceptable burden caused by about 30% of players - is the way to get the message across properly imo. The 'Singapore approach' if you like!
		
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Ok ill say it simply again 

We are imposing sanctions on people who dont enter their score into the PSI after a round and also dont put their card into the box - various levels depending on frequency etc etc etc 

What those sanctions are we are unsure exactly yet but putting the score into the PSI will become a condition of the competition as will putting a scorecard in beyond the DQ from the comp hence we could then impose sanctions if those conditions are not met 

I really think the bone has been gnawed to death now - i really do hope you do comps at your club - if not then please volunteer.


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## Old Skier (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have explained it all nice and simply to you - the issue is plain and simple - lazy people - end of , nothing more to say or add.
		
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I think you may have two problems:

1) A few very inconsiderate people who a quick word in their shell might work followed by a few lost cards :fore:
2) Something I have noticed at some clubs (not ours as the owner won't fork out for it), The inability of some people to use the PSI system which is a training issue.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I think you may have two problems:

1) A few very inconsiderate people who a quick word in their shell might work followed by a few lost cards :fore:
2) Something I have noticed at some clubs (not ours as the owner won't fork out for it), The inability of some people to use the PSI system which is a training issue.
		
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We do mate - everyone has been shown how to use the PSI


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			....
We are imposing sanctions on people who dont enter their score into the PSI after a round and also dont put their card into the box - various levels depending on frequency etc etc etc 

What those sanctions are we are unsure exactly yet but putting the score into the PSI will become a condition of the competition as will putting a scorecard in beyond the DQ from the comp hence we could then impose sanctions if those conditions are not met 
...
		
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:clap: That might work! Though I hope you don't need to impose sanctions. They cause more expense and time than benefit at times!

And Yes. I ran comps and did entry of ALL the Entries and Scores MANUALLY - no PSI - for 5 years! That wasn't the most time consuming part of the role! Getting it from the Master system, with no internet access and only a 3.5" floppy to HDID was the time-consuming bit!


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## Old Skier (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			a 3.5" floppy
		
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You is old sir.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			You is old sir.
		
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Er..Indeed! Though I can remember loading Wordstar into memory from a (single) 5.25" Floppy system (1981)!

That (286) PC had been donated to the Club when someone upgraded.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That note for requirements was placed on cards 3 months ago 

Soon the note with the sanctions will be placed ( coming into force next year ) 

And yeah it is a little annoying
		
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Don't push me .


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## Val (Aug 18, 2014)

I see no problems with an NR if done properly, ie NR the hole and play the round out and submit your card at the end.

No problem, no different to someone playing 18 holes in full in a comp.


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