# Clocks go back this weekend!



## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

The clocks go back 1 hour this coming Sunday (25th October).  As usual I have to ask why? It just condemns us to long dark evenings and wastes energy for no particularly good reason I can see!  Maybe keeps a few Scottish farmers happy, but that's about it!  :angry:


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## patricks148 (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			The clocks go back 1 hour this coming Sunday (25th October).  As usual I have to ask why? It just condemns us to long dark evenings and wastes energy for no particularly good reason I can see!  Maybe keeps a few Scottish farmers happy, but that's about it!  :angry:
		
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not to mention a few Scottish Children


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## bladeplayer (Oct 22, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			not to mention a few Scottish Children
		
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Scottish Farmers kids must be over the moon so ..


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## Grogger (Oct 22, 2015)

You get an extra hour on the weekend. 

Stop moaning


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## NWJocko (Oct 22, 2015)

How do you get through life when everything winds you up so much Del?

Be thankful you obviously have an easy enough life if the nonsense you whine about on here is the worst of your worries :thup:


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## freddielong (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			The clocks go back 1 hour this coming Sunday (25th October).  As usual I have to ask why? It just condemns us to long dark evenings and wastes energy for no particularly good reason I can see!  Maybe keeps a few Scottish farmers happy, but that's about it!  :angry:
		
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I think the point to remember is that BST is the best half of the year but bst is the bit that we would loose if they decided to stick with one it would be get all year around.

So don't rock the the boat.


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## Craigg (Oct 22, 2015)

If I wake up on Sunday, then that'll do for me.Who cares what the clock says?:thup:


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## fundy (Oct 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I think the point to remember is that BST is the best half of the year but bst is the bit that we would loose if they decided to stick with one it would be get all year around.

So don't rock the the boat.
		
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on what basis? last proposal that was going to go to the commons wasnt removing bst


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

I remember they tried not changing the clocks back in 68/69 i think.

 It was a complete disaster in Scotland , kids going to school in darkness etc .

I don't see any major problems in having 2 different time zones within the UK .


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## CliveW (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Maybe keeps a few Scottish farmers happy, but that's about it!  :angry:
		
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At least you won't have to worry if you are on Alpha or Zulu times.


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## Khamelion (Oct 22, 2015)

If you lived in Morocco, you'd follow GMT and BST, except during Ramadan, hen the clocks go back to GMT, so they change their clock 4 times a year. don't think they have to worry to much about it being dark, but hell, that's what hi-vis fluorescent vests and torches are for.


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## c1973 (Oct 22, 2015)

Most kids are taken to school in mummys car nowadays anyway (as can be witnessed by the daily disregard for others, including other children, around school when dropping their own brats off), so really do we actually need to change the clocks if that's the main reason for it?

I'm not sure we do.


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## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I think the point to remember is that BST is the best half of the year but bst is the bit that we would loose if they decided to stick with one it would be get all year around.

So don't rock the the boat.
		
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I am suggesting permanent BST (shall we call it British Standard Time?). It's the GMT bit I want to get rid of because it wastes daylight hours for the majority of the U.K. population. Double Summer Time would be even better for the Summer months.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Most kids are taken to school in mummys car nowadays anyway (as can be witnessed by the daily disregard for others, including other children, around school when dropping their own brats off), so really do we actually need to change the clocks if that's the main reason for it?

I'm not sure we do.
		
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Have you ever tried to connect cables , dig a hole , hammer a nail in, lay bricks  or even roughcast in the dark ????? . 

We outdoor construction workers, had to start and finish work1 hour later during the experiment.


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## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Most kids are taken to school in mummys car nowadays anyway (as can be witnessed by the daily disregard for others, including other children, around school when dropping their own brats off), so really do we actually need to change the clocks if that's the main reason for it?

I'm not sure we do.
		
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I believe the last time permanent BST was tried, the number of Scottish school children killed on their journeys to and from school actually fell.  Not that you would think this from the hysterical reaction from North of the Border at the time!


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## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			Have you ever tried to connect cables , dig a hole , hammer a nail in, lay bricks  or even roughcast in the dark ????? . 

We had to start and finish work1 hour later  during the experiment.
		
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So?  You didn't have to work any more hours did you!


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## freddielong (Oct 22, 2015)

fundy said:



			on what basis? last proposal that was going to go to the commons wasnt removing bst
		
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I just assumed that as bst was when we chose to step out of sync then that would be the one we would loose, if we could stay bst al year round I would vote for that.


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## freddielong (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			I am suggesting permanent BST (shall we call it British Standard Time?). It's the GMT bit I want to get rid of because it wastes daylight hours for the majority of the U.K. population. Double Summer Time would be even better for the Summer months.
		
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Yes please


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			So?  You didn't have to work any more hours did you!
		
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I didn't say i did


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			I am suggesting permanent BST (shall we call it British Standard Time?). It's the GMT bit I want to get rid of because it wastes daylight hours for the majority of the U.K. population. *Double Summer Time would be even better for the Summer months.*

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+1

Why oh why we have 2 hours of light before 6 in the morning when nearly everyone is still asleep is beyond me. Much better to have some of that light in the evening. It could be light until midnight in the middle of summer and still light at 10 at the end of August. Great for golf but also great for saving energy, reducing late night crime etc.

what we do in winter doesn't really bother me.......it's just dark and miserable most of the time.


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## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Yes please
		
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Glad somebody agrees with me!


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## c1973 (Oct 22, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			Have you ever tried to connect cables , dig a hole , hammer a nail in, lay bricks  or even roughcast in the dark ????? . 

We outdoor construction workers, had to start and finish work1 hour later during the experiment.
		
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Yep. I'm working outside on a daily basis..........well I say working......



Winter hours?


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## freddielong (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Glad somebody agrees with me!  

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I would vote for anyone who promised that even Corbyn double British summer time amazing idea.

Playing golf at midnight in June bliss


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## ger147 (Oct 22, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			+1

Why oh why we have 2 hours of light before 6 in the morning when nearly everyone is still asleep is beyond me. Much better to have some of that light in the evening. It could be light until midnight in the middle of summer and still light at 10 at the end of August. Great for golf but also great for saving energy, reducing late night crime etc.

what we do in winter doesn't really bother me.......it's just dark and miserable most of the time.
		
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I love the early mornings in the summer, finished a few rounds before 9am


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## BTatHome (Oct 22, 2015)

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein.


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## KenL (Oct 22, 2015)

I play golf in the morning (best for me as like to spend my weekend afternoons with my wife).

Living not very far north in Scotland for about one month of the year it is not light until about 8.15 or so.  Without going back to GMT, I would be late home and would be more likely to have to miss my Sat/Sun golf.

The double BST suggestion is madness.  It would not get light until about 11am in the north of the UK before daylight in winter.  This is unworkable for a very large number of people.


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## DCB (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			I believe the last time permanent BST was tried, the number of Scottish school children killed on their journeys to and from school actually fell.  Not that you would think this from the hysterical reaction from North of the Border at the time!
		
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A rather flippant response. In Edinburgh a mid December morning and the streetlights were still on until well after 9am. We walked to school with reflective tabard on to make us visible to drivers.

Unfortunately, road statistics may say one thing, but, personal experience says something else, having known two young boys who were casualties in road traffic accidents on their way to school during that experiment. Only people I knew in all my years at school who were killed in a road accident. And yes it was dark !


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## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

KenL said:



			I play golf in the morning (best for me as like to spend my weekend afternoons with my wife).

Living not very far north in Scotland for about one month of the year it is not light until about 8.15 or so.  Without going back to GMT, I would be late home and would be more likely to have to miss my Sat/Sun golf.

The double BST suggestion is madness.  It would not get light until about 11am in the north of the UK before daylight in winter.  This is unworkable for a very large number of people.
		
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Double BST is only proposed for the Summer months!


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 22, 2015)

Thread reopened after a tidy up

any more problems and it will be closed.

Simples


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread reopened after a tidy up

any more problems and it will be closed.

Simples
		
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So you're turning the clock back :smirk:


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 22, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			So you're turning the clock back :smirk:
		
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Boom boom ,


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

So we're really going to be treated like mushrooms .


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## Sweep (Oct 22, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			I remember they tried not changing the clocks back in 68/69 i think.

 It was a complete disaster in Scotland , kids going to school in darkness etc .

I don't see any major problems in having 2 different time zones within the UK .
		
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It was great in England. I agree. There should be two time zones


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Sweep said:



			It was great in England. I agree. There should be two time zones
		
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:thup:


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## john0 (Oct 22, 2015)

Sweep said:



			It was great in England. I agree. There should be two time zones
		
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Think they should rebuild the wall too


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

john0 said:



			Think they should rebuild the wall too
		
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Yip, and then extend it right up the east coast :smirk:


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## Billythefish (Oct 23, 2015)

The way i played last weekend my clubs are going back an all!


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## williamalex1 (Oct 23, 2015)

Billythefish said:



			The way i played last weekend my  clubs are going back an all!
		
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Class comment , but 1st class will cost you :rofl:


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## delc (Oct 23, 2015)

DCB said:



			A rather flippant response. In Edinburgh a mid December morning and the streetlights were still on until well after 9am. We walked to school with reflective tabard on to make us visible to drivers.

Unfortunately, road statistics may say one thing, but, personal experience says something else, having known two young boys who were casualties in road traffic accidents on their way to school during that experiment. Only people I knew in all my years at school who were killed in a road accident. And yes it was dark !
		
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Whilst obviously very sad for the individual families concerned, the statistics showed that although slightly more Scottish children were killed walking to school in the dark winter mornings, this was more than balanced out by fewer being killed as they walked back home again in the lighter evenings. The theory behind this was that drivers were more alert in the mornings than the evenings, by which time they were becoming tired after working all day, as well as the improved visibility.


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## Slab (Oct 23, 2015)

delc said:



			Whilst obviously very sad for the individual families concerned, the statistics showed that although slightly more Scottish children were killed walking to school in the dark winter mornings, Tthis was more than balanced out by fewer being killed as they walked back home again in the lighter evenings. *The theory behind this was that drivers were more alert in the mornings than the evenings, by which time they were becoming tired after working all day*, as well as the improved visibility.
		
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Didn't the new drink drive laws come into force at the same time though, so the numbers could be skewed due to this initiative


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## CliveW (Oct 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			Didn't the new drink drive laws come into force at the same time though, so the numbers could be skewed due to this initiative
		
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... And there were far fewer cars on the road then.


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## delc (Oct 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			Didn't the new drink drive laws come into force at the same time though, so the numbers could be skewed due to this initiative
		
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Didn't think even the Scots got bladdered by school closing time!  :mmm:

P.S. Their drink driving laws are now even stricter than the English ones. I had to remember that when I went on a holiday up there a couple of weeks ago.


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## Slab (Oct 23, 2015)

I think the arguments on both sides are simply whatever works best for individuals (or their business) interests will determine what they'll support regardless of the impact to others 

I read that the guy who thought the idea up for the Uk was a golfer and wanted to play longer at dusk!

A farmer will still work around daylight regardless of what time the clock says it is

And as we continue to move towards a 24 hour society there seems less point in making any change

Anyway we don't change the clocks here so for me it means a midweek footie is on too late during GMT so for that reason lets have triple BST!


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## delc (Oct 23, 2015)

CliveW said:



			... And there were far fewer cars on the road then.
		
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Certainly fewer 'Chelsea Tractors' for running children to school in!


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## Slab (Oct 23, 2015)

delc said:



			Didn't think even the Scots got drunk by school closing time!  :mmm:

P.S. Their drink driving laws are now even stricter than the English ones. I had to remember that when I went on a holiday up there a couple of weeks ago.
		
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You've missed my point, probably my fault. Might a fundamental attitudinal change in driving habits and behaviour have led to a misrepresentation of the effects on traffic accident numbers during the three year trial of leaving the clocks on BST?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2015)

I always have a wee smile when this comes up every year.

Nobody gains or loses any time or daylight.


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 23, 2015)

Are we British just born pessimists or depressives? The reason I say that is that this debate always gets bogged down in the argument about what to do in the winter. We seem to always be obsessed with the problems changing the clocks may cause rather than the real benefits it can bring. Winter is rubbish at our latitude. There isn't enough daylight. There will always be different views north and south because we are basically a long thin country and we can argue all day about how to set the clocks to get the best out of the few hours daylight but whatever we do then some will be in disagreement.

The debate should be about how to best make use of the abundance of daylight we get in the summer months. Double summer time (leaving the drab winter months as is) means lighter nights across the whole summer for all sorts of benefits (including golf) and all we lose is light in the very early morning that currently benefits very few. The slight trade off would be a dark morning rush hour in October for many which for 6 months with an hour extra in the evening is a pretty good trade off. To me it's just a no brainer.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 23, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Are we British just born pessimists or depressives? The reason I say that is that this debate always gets bogged down in the argument about what to do in the winter. We seem to always be obsessed with the problems changing the clocks may cause rather than the real benefits it can bring. Winter is rubbish at our latitude. There isn't enough daylight. There will always be different views north and south because we are basically a long thin country and we can argue all day about how to set the clocks to get the best out of the few hours daylight but whatever we do then some will be in disagreement.

The debate should be about how to best make use of the abundance of daylight we get in the summer months. Double summer time (leaving the drab winter months as is) means lighter nights across the whole summer for all sorts of benefits (including golf) and all we lose is light in the very early morning that currently benefits very few. The slight trade off would be a dark morning rush hour in October for many which for 6 months with an hour extra in the evening is a pretty good trade off. To me it's just a no brainer.
		
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There is a lot of people who rely on light mornings throughout the summer - the countries whole farming industry for a start 


Plus there will never be a worthwhile trade off for allowing kids to go to school in the mornings throughout the winter in daylight - if it saves one child then it IMO hands down wins any argument


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is a lot of people who rely on light mornings throughout the summer - the countries whole farming industry for a start 


Plus there will never be a worthwhile trade off for allowing kids to go to school in the mornings throughout the winter in daylight - if it saves one child then it IMO hands down wins any argument
		
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NOt arguing at all with the second part, but re: the first - farmers stil get teh same number of daylight hours, what a clock says makes no difference surely? Looking as a very much non expert!


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## Slab (Oct 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is a lot of people who rely on light mornings throughout the summer - the countries whole farming industry for a start 


Plus there will never be a worthwhile trade off for allowing kids to go to school in the mornings throughout the winter in daylight - if it saves one child then it IMO hands down wins any argument
		
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Can't disagree with point 2 but point one I don't get

Farmers don't clock in for work, if its light they're working (often earlier) it doesn't matter what time it says on the clock, they don't 'gain' an an hour of daylight no matter what you do with the clocks, the extra daylight just doesn't exist



edit: too slow


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## Val (Oct 23, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Are we British just born pessimists or depressives? The reason I say that is that this debate always gets bogged down in the argument about what to do in the winter. We seem to always be obsessed with the problems changing the clocks may cause rather than the real benefits it can bring. Winter is rubbish at our latitude. There isn't enough daylight. There will always be different views north and south because we are basically a long thin country and we can argue all day about how to set the clocks to get the best out of the few hours daylight but whatever we do then some will be in disagreement.

The debate should be about how to best make use of the abundance of daylight we get in the summer months. Double summer time (leaving the drab winter months as is) means lighter nights across the whole summer for all sorts of benefits (including golf) and all we lose is light in the very early morning that currently benefits very few. The slight trade off would be a dark morning rush hour in October for many which for 6 months with an hour extra in the evening is a pretty good trade off. To me it's just a no brainer.
		
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What benefits do we get that we don't already have in the summer? Who really needs it light at 11pm or later through the June/July months?

As DfT pointed out, we get the same daylight regardless so lets have more of it in the morning rather than night through the winter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 23, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			NOt arguing at all with the second part, but re: the first - farmers stil get teh same number of daylight hours, what a clock says makes no difference surely? Looking as a very much non expert!
		
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Being honest I don't know ? Maybe early is the best time to milk cows or cultivate the veggies and get the food out to markets and one thing that would please Delc - keep the tractors off the roads during Rush hour ? 

But will certainly ask the farmer we play golf with 

I like the bright morning in the summer because we play at 6:30 - done by tenish and have the rest of the day with family or work etc


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## Crazyface (Oct 23, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			NOt arguing at all with the second part, but re: the first - farmers stil get teh same number of daylight hours, what a clock says makes no difference surely? Looking as a very much non expert!
		
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+1. And do cows wear watches? "By eck he's late today. I just don't know how he thinks I'll be able to get enough grass down me neck this 'after"


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## Crazyface (Oct 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Being honest I don't know ? Maybe early is the best time to milk cows or cultivate the veggies and get the food out to markets and one thing that would please Delc - keep the tractors off the roads during Rush hour ? 

But will certainly ask the farmer we play golf with 

I like the bright morning in the summer because we play at 6:30 - done by tenish and have the rest of the day with family or work etc
		
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Ahhh so your the nutters coming off the course as I'm just arriving.


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## Crazyface (Oct 23, 2015)

Val said:



			What benefits do we get that we don't already have in the summer? Who really needs it light at 11pm or later through the June/July months?

As DfT pointed out, we get the same daylight regardless so lets have more of it in the morning rather than night through the winter.
		
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Yeah lets have more daylight when the majority of the population can't put it to good use.


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is a lot of people who rely on light mornings throughout the summer - the countries whole farming industry for a start 


Plus there will never be a worthwhile trade off for allowing kids to go to school in the mornings throughout the winter in daylight - if it saves one child then it IMO hands down wins any argument
		
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There you go again, turning it into a debate about winter. Where did I say we should change anything in winter?  I said October, one month as against 6 months of increased daylight. If this is an issue then you could have a 2 tiered change of just change back to GMT in September.......may get too complicated though....the system we have now causes enough confusion.

Re farmers.......no they don't.....and an often used argument that has no basis. Farmers work daylight hours. It matters not one hoot what time it says on their watch as to what work they do. Ask yourself.....if farmers didn't wear watches or tell the time would they do anything different?


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 23, 2015)

Val said:



			What benefits do we get that we don't already have in the summer? Who really needs it light at 11pm or later through the June/July months?
		
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Well, for starters, imagine every light bulb in the UK is put on an hour later for 6 months of the year. That saves everyone money, saves energy, is better for the environment. Less crime, more chance to do sport, enjoy the good weather etc etc. It's not just about being light till 11 at night it's about being light till 9 when it currently goes dark at 8, being light till 10 when it currently goes dark at 9 etc.  ALL summer.





			As DfT pointed out, we get the same daylight regardless so lets have more of it in the morning rather than night through the winter.
		
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Again you are getting drawn into the winter question.....nothing to do with the point I was making.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 23, 2015)

How can it cause confusion ? Seems to me to be very simple - clock go forward one month the goes back 6 months later

And even one month of dark mornings when kids go to school is one month too much


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 23, 2015)

I'm with Delc on this one. Leave the clocks as they are and let's have slightly lighter nights in the winter. If the Scots want to keep it as it is then their parliament can do their thing and they can remain with the status quo. The current situation suits their demands and their alone, exactly the sort of situation devolution is set up for. We would go to European time, more logical for work as well as for light. Bring it on.


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 23, 2015)

Oh come on Phil, that's like saying we should have 10 mph speed limits everywhere because "one road death is too much". Easy to make it a moral high ground debate but I think that's just an easy smokescreen and not really the issue. I've still to hear one convincing argument that an extra hour's daylight in the evening all summer would not be a good idea. I'm sure we all agree the current DST hour and "light nights" is a good thing.......not many would advocate GMT all year round surely. All GMT+2 in the summer does is make it even better.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 23, 2015)

It is what it is... I am mentally prepared... I think...


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## USER1999 (Oct 23, 2015)

Do kids not get run over in the dark on their way home? Why is it only a problem in the morning?


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## Three (Oct 23, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We would go to European time,.
		
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The clocks change in Europe too. 
I'm in Europe and we'll be putting them back Saturday night.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 23, 2015)

Yes, but if we did not put ours back then we would then be on the same time. By altering ours we remain with a 1 hour time difference.


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## IainP (Oct 23, 2015)

I am in Europe last time I looked at the Atlas 

Was it an old Morecambe and Wise line - "soon off on my holidays to Europe, ... to Bognor Regis"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			I remember they tried not changing the clocks back in 68/69 i think.

* It was a complete disaster in Scotland , kids going to school in darkness etc .*

I don't see any major problems in having 2 different time zones within the UK .
		
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It was horrid.  We were all provided with fluorescent arm bands to wear walking to school in the dark.  Yes - back in the day we walked.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2015)

DCB said:



			A rather flippant response. In Edinburgh a mid December morning and the streetlights were still on until well after 9am. We walked to school with reflective tabard on to make us visible to drivers.

Unfortunately, road statistics may say one thing, but, personal experience says something else, having known two young boys who were casualties in road traffic accidents on their way to school during that experiment. Only people I knew in all my years at school who were killed in a road accident. And yes it was dark !
		
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You got a tabard? - guess that's Embra for you - kids being a little more precious than us Glaswegians  I only remember us getting arm bands.


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## Val (Oct 23, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Well, for starters, imagine every light bulb in the UK is put on an hour later for 6 months of the year. That saves everyone money, saves energy, is better for the environment. Less crime, more chance to do sport, enjoy the good weather etc etc. It's not just about being light till 11 at night it's about being light till 9 when it currently goes dark at 8, being light till 10 when it currently goes dark at 9 etc.  ALL summer

Again you are getting drawn into the winter question.....nothing to do with the point I was making.
		
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Summer time wont change it's winter that changes if we dont move the clocks so the winter question is very relevent.


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 23, 2015)

Work and schools start too late in the south I guess, shift work and school start times for those with longer daylight hours! 

Sadly as a service industry based country we would need to run 2 shifts as customers expect 9-5 service.

It's a complicated matter but i think schools and workplaces should excessive flexibility to allow better use of evening and morning light.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 23, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Oh come on Phil, that's like saying we should have 10 mph speed limits everywhere because "one road death is too much". Easy to make it a moral high ground debate but I think that's just an easy smokescreen and not really the issue. I've still to hear one convincing argument that an extra hour's daylight in the evening all summer would not be a good idea. I'm sure we all agree the current DST hour and "light nights" is a good thing.......not many would advocate GMT all year round surely. All GMT+2 in the summer does is make it even better.
		
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So you want the clocks to go back 2 hours in the winter and then forward 2 hours in the summer to gain what ? An extra hour ?


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you want the clocks to go back 2 hours in the winter and then forward 2 hours in the summer to gain what ? An extra hour ?
		
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You were the one who said this wasn't complicated.......yet you have complicated it!!!

No, I didn't say that. I said that instead of doing what we do now.....GMT in winter and BST (GMT+1) in summer, we do GMT in winter and BDST (British Double Summer Time - GMT+2) in the summer.

So,
winter = as we are now in winter
summer = an extra hour in the evening compared with what we currently do with all the inherent benefits that would bring.

It really is that simple. Isn't just me btw.....this very topic was debated at some length in parliament just a few years ago and has a lot of support from all over.....just not enough


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 23, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			You were the one who said this wasn't complicated.......yet you have complicated it!!!

No, I didn't say that. I said that instead of doing what we do now.....GMT in winter and BST (GMT+1) in summer, we do GMT in winter and BDST (British Double Summer Time - GMT+2) in the summer.

So,
winter = as we are now in winter
summer = an extra hour in the evening compared with what we currently do with all the inherent benefits that would bring.

It really is that simple. Isn't just me btw.....this very topic was debated at some length in parliament just a few years ago and has a lot of support from all over.....just not enough 

Click to expand...

So as I said - the clocks go back 2 hours in October and forward two hours in the summer 

And as you said - not enough support so maybe the majority are happy as it is right now


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 23, 2015)

john0 said:



			Think they should rebuild the wall too
		
Click to expand...

They can't....not enough daylight hours to carry out the work


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## c1973 (Oct 23, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			Yip, and then extend it right up the east coast :smirk:
		
Click to expand...

Just up the East coast will do me........and maybe across the North for a few miles. Keep the South open.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 23, 2015)

Just read through this thread, why does pretty much every thread on this forum turn into a pointless petty point scoring exercise these days? And it always seems to be the same culprits.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Oct 23, 2015)

Sorry Val, I don't understand what you are getting at?

Right now we are all on GMT in winter. Double summer time is just that......you put the clocks forward 2 hours in summer instead of the 1 hour we add at present.
Therefore in winter there is no change if double summer time was introduced.....the winter "darkness" issue really does have no relevance to the point I'm trying to make.
Putting the clocks forward more in summer than we do now has the effect of moving an extra hour of light from the early morning (when most of us are asleep), to evening when most of us are awake. That's all.


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## Val (Oct 23, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



*Sorry Val, I don't understand what you are getting at?*

Right now we are all on GMT in winter. Double summer time is just that......you put the clocks forward 2 hours in summer instead of the 1 hour we add at present.
Therefore in winter there is no change if double summer time was introduced.....the winter "darkness" issue really does have no relevance to the point I'm trying to make.
Putting the clocks forward more in summer than we do now has the effect of moving an extra hour of light from the early morning (when most of us are asleep), to evening when most of us are awake. That's all.
		
Click to expand...

It was only later I realised you were talking about moving summer time an hour giving a 2 hour change rather than leave winter on BST permanently which is the normal debate. I get your point but the logistics of moving 2 hours every 6 months would make it a no go, hence why there is no support for it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 23, 2015)

Does it matter. It ain't going to change any time soon. Nor will different time zones come in. It happens every year. Deal with it. Is it really that much of a hardship?


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## Fish (Oct 24, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Does it matter. It ain't going to change any time soon. Nor will different time zones come in. It happens every year. Deal with it. *Is it really that much of a hardship?*

Click to expand...

Its very dark still now, in fact it's pitch black and the wife walks Max at 7am so will be darker from tomorrow, kids will be going to school in the dark with sleep in their eyes and knobs in BMW's & Audi's will be racing to work, so yeah, I think darker mornings are an issue personally!


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## bluewolf (Oct 24, 2015)

I haven't seen daylight for a week!!!!


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## delc (Oct 24, 2015)

Val said:



			It was only later I realised you were talking about moving summer time an hour giving a 2 hour change rather than leave winter on BST permanently which is the normal debate. I get your point but the logistics of moving 2 hours every 6 months would make it a no go, hence why there is no support for it.
		
Click to expand...

My suggestion is either permanent BST throughout the year, which would avoid the inconvenience of changing the clocks twice a year, or BST in the Winter and DBST in the Summer which would limit the clock change to one hour as now.  

The other alternative is to change the normal working day from 9 to 5 to 8 to 4, or even 7 to 3 in the Summer. However this would require everybody's Contract of Employment to be rewritten, so changing the time zone is probably easier and already legislated for.


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## CliveW (Oct 24, 2015)

Fish said:



			Its very dark still now, in fact it's pitch black and the wife walks Max at 7am *so will be darker from tomorrow,* kids will be going to school in the dark with sleep in their eyes and knobs in BMW's & Audi's will be racing to work, so yeah, I think darker mornings are an issue personally!
		
Click to expand...

It will actually be lighter tomorrow morning and darker earlier in the afternoon.


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## Smiffy (Oct 24, 2015)

Fish said:



			,kids will be going to school in the dark with sleep in their eyes and knobs
		
Click to expand...


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## c1973 (Oct 24, 2015)

:rofl:


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## delc (Oct 24, 2015)

Tonight's the night we go back to GMT (Greenwich Misery Time)!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Tonight's the night we go back to GMT (Greenwich Misery Time)!  

Click to expand...

And the important part is kids are safer in the morning going to school in the light - isn't that the most important thjng ?


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## delc (Oct 24, 2015)

Val said:



			It was only later I realised you were talking about moving summer time an hour giving a 2 hour change rather than leave winter on BST permanently which is the normal debate. I get your point but the logistics of moving 2 hours every 6 months would make it a no go, hence why there is no support for it.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			And the important part is kids are safer in the morning going to school in the light - isn't that the most important thjng ?
		
Click to expand...

But less safe coming back in the darker evenings!


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## KenL (Oct 24, 2015)

Children are not half asleep in the afternoon like they are in the morning.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2015)

delc said:



			But less safe coming back in the darker evenings!
		
Click to expand...

Starts getting dark around halt 5 with most kids at home by then 

So what's more important ? Kids getting to school safely or an extra hour at night for grown adult workers ?


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## Craigg (Oct 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Starts getting dark around half 5* with most kids at home by then 

So what's more important ? Kids getting to school safely or an extra hour at night for grown adult workers ?
		
Click to expand...

Really?

http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london?month=12


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2015)

delc said:



			But less safe coming back in the darker evenings!
		
Click to expand...

Most Schools finish between 3-3:30, not getting dark till 4 onwards.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Really?

http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london?month=12

Click to expand...

Ok starts getting dark after 4 - point still stands

So the question is - what's more important 

Kids going to school in light or businessmen going home in light ?


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## Craigg (Oct 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok starts getting dark after 4 - point still stands

So the question is - what's more important 

Kids going to school in light or businessmen going home in light ?
		
Click to expand...

Wasn't questioning your argument, just the accuracy of information  used to reinforce it.


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2015)

OMG, am I in serious bother.

I've put every clock back already. She knows its coming but it winds her up no end...


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## Grogger (Oct 24, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			OMG, am I in serious bother.

I've put every clock back already. She knows its coming but it winds her up no end...
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			OMG, am I in serious bother.

I've put every clock back already. She knows its coming but it winds her up no end...
		
Click to expand...




Grogger said:



			:rofl:
		
Click to expand...


She nearly missed the start of the Strictly come... she's gone flippin mental!

"Chase me girl, chase me"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			She nearly missed the start of the Strictly come... she's gone flippin mental!

"Chase me girl, chase me"
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant, you need to put back to the correct time now, that'll really throw her&#128515;


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 24, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			She nearly missed the start of the Strictly come... she's gone flippin mental!

"Chase me girl, chase me"
		
Click to expand...

It's when she starts chucking the pots and pans you need to start worrying. You are a bad man!!!


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## delc (Oct 25, 2015)

It's 05.45 GMT on Sunday 25th October and it's already getting light where I am. I believe most school days start at 09.00, so that's over 3 hours to get your kids to school in daylight. How long do you need?


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			It's 05.45 GMT on Sunday 25th October and it's already getting light where I am. I believe most school days start at 09.00, so that's over 3 hours to get your kids to school in daylight. How long do you need?
		
Click to expand...


But kids don't go to school on Sundays


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## Fish (Oct 25, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			But kids don't go to school on Sundays
		
Click to expand...

&#128514; &#128514;


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			It's 05.45 GMT on Sunday 25th October and it's already getting light where I am. I believe most school days start at 09.00, so that's over 3 hours to get your kids to school in daylight. How long do you need?
		
Click to expand...

Why don't you take advantage of the light morning and go and have a round of golf 

Around here kids start leaving for school around 7:30

Isn't it great that they feel safer walking to school in the light - that's more important than an extra hour a businessman is it not Delc ?


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## Fish (Oct 25, 2015)

Fish said:



			Its very dark still now, in fact it's pitch black and the wife walks Max at 7am so will be darker from tomorrow, kids will be going to school in the dark with sleep in their eyes and knobs in BMW's & Audi's will be racing to work, so yeah, I think darker mornings are an issue personally!
		
Click to expand...

I must stop drinking in the morning, got this totally arse about tit !


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## Smiffy (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			It's 05.45 GMT on Sunday 25th October and it's already getting light where I am. I believe most school days start at 09.00, so that's over 3 hours to get your kids to school in daylight. How long do you need?
		
Click to expand...


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2015)

Fish said:



			I must stop drinking in the morning, got this totally arse about tit !
		
Click to expand...

Yep, thought so. But you seemed so happy in your ignorance I didn't want to burst your bubble:ears:

And its 6:50 and only just light enough here to hit a ball... if it was light enough for Delc at 5:45, and an hour later here, imagine what it'll be like in Aberdeen.


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## Fish (Oct 25, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Yep, thought so. But you seemed so happy in your ignorance I didn't want to burst your bubble:ears:
		
Click to expand...

You'd be amazed how confidently wrong I can be at times :rofl:


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## MegaSteve (Oct 25, 2015)

Enjoyed the extra hour in bed but not so happy about waking up to the first frost [for these parts] of winter...


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## delc (Oct 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don't you take advantage of the light morning and go and have a round of golf 

Around here kids start leaving for school around 7:30

Isn't it great that they feel safer walking to school in the light - that's more important than an extra hour a businessman is it not Delc ?
		
Click to expand...

Due to Contracts of employment of the staff, etc, the earliest available tee time at our club is 07.15, and that wouldn't give enough time to play even 9 holes before I would have to start commuting to work. So I can't use the extra hour of daylight in the morning for playing golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			Due to Contracts of employment of the staff, etc, the earliest available tee time at our club is 07.15, and that wouldn't give enough time to play even 9 holes before I would have to start commuting to work. So I can't use the extra hour of daylight in the morning for playing golf.  

Click to expand...

But kids get to school safer is that not more important ? Yes or no Delc


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			Due to Contracts of employment of the staff, etc, the earliest available tee time at our club is 07.15, and that wouldn't give enough time to play even 9 holes before I would have to start commuting to work. So I can't use the extra hour of daylight in the morning for playing golf.
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you here comrade. To be honest I think the fact that golfers can't actually use the extra hour in the morning to play golf is reason enough to scrap the clocks changing on its own.

You have selfish contracts of employment to stop workers being exploited, no doubt imposed by the nanny state, or health and safety. Plus it might be a bit safer for kids allegedly. But has anyone here stopped to think of the real victims of the clocks changing? It's Golfers! 

Yet more discrimination and prejudice we suffer.


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## delc (Oct 25, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Yep, thought so. But you seemed so happy in your ignorance I didn't want to burst your bubble:ears:

And its 6:50 and only just light enough here to hit a ball... if it was light enough for Delc at 5:45, and an hour later here, imagine what it'll be like in Aberdeen.
		
Click to expand...

I was on holiday in Aberdeenshire just over a week ago and the daylight hours were a bit shorter than in the South of England. However those in Scotland get much longer hours of daylight in the Summer, so please stop wingeing. I once had a holiday in June in the far North of Scotland and it never really got dark. You could probably play golf 24 hours a day up there!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			I was on holiday in Aberdeenshire just over a week ago and the daylight hours were a bit shorter than in the South of England. However those in Scotland get much longer hours of daylight in the Summer, so please stop wingeing. I once had a holiday in June in the far North of Scotland and it never really got dark. You could probably play golf 24 hours a day up there! 

Click to expand...

I agree, I'm sick of Hobbit's selfish, narrow minded wingeing, it's not all about him!&#128540;


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## delc (Oct 25, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm with you here comrade. To be honest I think the fact that golfers can't actually use the extra hour in the morning to play golf is reason enough to scrap the clocks changing on its own.

You have selfish contracts of employment to stop workers being exploited, no doubt imposed by the nanny state, or health and safety. Plus it might be a bit safer for kids allegedly. But has anyone here stopped to think of the real victims of the clocks changing? It's Golfers! 

Yet more discrimination and prejudice we suffer.
		
Click to expand...

I am retired now, but when I did work it was normally specified in my contract of 
Employment that I worked 08.30 to 17.00 or 09.00 to 17.30 with an hour lunch break.  The best job I ever had had flexitime, where I had to be there in the core times of 10.00 - 12.00 and 14.00 to 16.00 and work 37.5 hours a week (although due to pressure of work it was usually a lot longer than that). This largely allowed me to avoid the worse of the rush hours, and if I wanted to leave at 16.00 to fit in a round of golf after work I could.  Unfortunately flexitime is pretty rare these day due to Health 'n Safety and the Single Working directive!

With GMT the Sun is at its highest point in the sky at 12 noon, with sunrise and sunset being approximately symmetrically before and after this. For most of the year this wastes hours of daylight before most working people and school children even get up. You do also normally get about 30 minutes of twilight before the Sun rises and after it sets to add to this. Nobody likes getting up in the dark, but it's only for a few weeks in the middle of Winter. For the majority of UK citizens, long light evenings are more useful than long light mornings, and would significantly cut power consumption, so fewer wind turbines and Chinese nuclear power stations required!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			I am retired now, but when I did work it was normally specified in my contract of 
Employment that I worked 08.30 to 17.00 or 09.00 to 17.30 with an hour lunch break.  The best job I ever had had flexitime, where I had to be there in the core times of 10.00 - 12.00 and 14.00 to 16.00 and work 37.5 hours a week (although due to pressure of work it was usually a lot longer than that). This largely allowed me to avoid the worse of the rush hours, and if I wanted to leave at 16.00 to fit in a round of golf after work I could.  Unfortunately flexitime is pretty rare these day due to Health 'n Safety and the Single Working directive!

With GMT the Sun is at its highest point in the sky at 12 noon, with sunrise and sunset being approximately symmetrically before and after this. For most of the year this wastes hours of daylight before most working people and school children even get up. You do also normally get about 30 minutes of twilight before the Sun rises and after it sets to add to this. Nobody likes getting up in the dark, but it's only for a few weeks in the middle of Winter.
		
Click to expand...

If you're now retired, why does it matter what the clock says, surely you can adjust your day accordingly, better than flexi-time.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 25, 2015)

Vaguely remember there being a trial of not changing the clocks around the time I stated working [1969]... Not really sure it made any difference to anything as 'normal service' returned...


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2015)

delc said:



			It's 05.45 GMT on Sunday 25th October and it's already *getting light* where I am. I believe most school days start at 09.00, so that's over 3 hours to get your kids to school in daylight. How long do you need?
		
Click to expand...

There's a vast difference (about half an hour to over an hour depending on location and activity) between 'getting light' and actually 'being light! Sunrise today was 6:41 - and it certainly wasn't light enough to play Golf then!

Today's 'Lighting Down' time - when sun is 95% *below* the zenith -  was around 6:15!


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## CliveW (Oct 25, 2015)

Why not just shut all schools between October and March and open them from 8am to 8pm through the summer months with no holidays? That way kids wouldn't have to travel in the dark.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But kids get to school safer is that not more important ? Yes or no Delc
		
Click to expand...

There you go again Phil demanding an answer,why? its becoming a habit now when you don't like what people are writing.
Its becoming a bit repetitive.

You have not got kids so why the stance.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 25, 2015)

Not wishing to sound harsh... Most kids get delivered to the school gate these days without much walking involved...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			There you go again Phil demanding an answer,why? its becoming a habit now when you don't like what people are writing.
Its becoming a bit repetitive.

You have not got kids so why the stance.
		
Click to expand...

First thing - the question is extremely relevant to the debate as its one of the main reasons for the change in clocks and it's a question he keeps avoiding 

Secondly - I didn't realise that you needed to be a parent to show concerns about kids - will remember next time to not care a single thing about them


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But kids get to school safer is that not more important ? Yes or no Delc
		
Click to expand...

Yes!....Or is that No! It's a bit pointless asking for a simple yes/no answer when the question asked is totally ambiguous!! 

And it seems rather ironic that it's Phil asking for a simple Yes/No answer in the first place!   :rofl:


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## c1973 (Oct 25, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Not wishing to sound harsh... Most kids get delivered to the school gate these days without much walking involved...
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. 

The biggest danger to them going to school is the amount of parents in cars dropping kids off at the gates. In my experience it is usually one large slice of luck away from being utter carnage half the time. 

I don't see a big hoohah about that mind you.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree, I'm sick of Hobbit's selfish, narrow minded wingeing, it's not all about him!&#63004;
		
Click to expand...

Shut up you, I'm not finished talking about me and how frightened I am when its dark!:ears:


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## CliveW (Oct 25, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Exactly. 

The biggest danger to them going to school is the amount of parents in cars dropping kids off at the gates. In my experience it is usually one large slice of luck away from being utter carnage half the time. 

I don't see a big hoohah about that mind you.
		
Click to expand...

Currently under trial in Edinburgh....    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-34321010


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## Fish (Oct 26, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Exactly. 

The biggest danger to them going to school is the amount of parents in cars dropping kids off at the gates. In my experience it is usually one large slice of luck away from being utter carnage half the time. 

I don't see a big hoohah about that mind you.
		
Click to expand...

Yep all these caring parents double park, park on Zebra crossings or the Zig Zags, in fact they'll park anywhere, even on the wrong side so the kids get out of the car in the middle of the road!  No thought of any danger just as long as there as close to the gates as possible!


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## KenL (Oct 26, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Not wishing to sound harsh... Most kids get delivered to the school gate these days without much walking involved...
		
Click to expand...

That's not true of secondary age pupils up here.


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			It's 05.45 GMT on Sunday 25th October and it's already getting light where I am.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know whereabouts in the UK you are Del, but it's nearly 06.15 down here (South Coast) and it's as black as your hat outside.


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## Fish (Oct 26, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			I don't know whereabouts in the UK you are Del, but it's nearly 06.15 down here (South Coast) and it's as black as your hat outside.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty light here now at Coventry Airport


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

Fish said:



			Pretty light here now at Coventry Airport
		
Click to expand...

As it is now in sunny Bexhill Robin. I was just asking where Del was for it to be light at 5.45 a couple of days ago????


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			As it is now in sunny Bexhill Robin. I was just asking where Del was for it to be light at 5.45 a couple of days ago????
		
Click to expand...


Maybe he put his clock back 2 hrs...


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe he put his clock back 2 hrs...
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he just exaggerated?
But that wouldn't be like Del would it....


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			As it is now in sunny Bexhill Robin. I was just asking where Del was for it to be light at 5.45 a couple of days ago????
		
Click to expand...

I was just South of Basingstoke, and it was definitely light enough to walk around outside at that time.  Sunset here yesterday was at about 4.50pm and it was totally dark by 5.25pm.  You might also like to read the following article on daylight saving:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...eep-Daylight-Savings-Time-all-year-round.html


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## Craigg (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			I was just South of Basingstoke, and it was definitely light enough to walk around outside at that time.  Sunset here yesterday was at about 4.50pm and it was totally dark by 5.25pm.  You might also like to read the following article on daylight saving:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...eep-Daylight-Savings-Time-all-year-round.html

Click to expand...

Two days ago sunrise was 7.40am. You're not telling me it was light at 5.45am are you?


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Two days ago sunrise was 7.40am. You're not telling me it was light at 5.45am are you?
		
Click to expand...

There is absolutely no way that it was light at 5.45am. None at all.


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## Craigg (Oct 26, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			There is absolutely no way that it was light at 5.45am. None at all.
		
Click to expand...

I think he's on a wind up


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Two days ago sunrise was 7.40am. You're not telling me it was light at 5.45am are you?
		
Click to expand...

I was talking about yesterday morning after the clocks had gone back, not 2 days ago!

http://www.thetimeandplace.info/uk/postcode/GU34+5SS#.Vi3bbDZOfug

Please note that nautical twilight today begins  at 05.33


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			I was talking about yesterday morning after the clocks had gone back, not 2 days ago!

http://www.thetimeandplace.info/uk/postcode/GU34+5SS#.Vi3bbDZOfug

Click to expand...

That shows sunrise at 6:46 an hour after you suggested it was getting light


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Please note that nautical twilight today begins  at 05.33
		
Click to expand...

So you're in a boat in the middle of the Indian Ocean????
Sorry Del, there is no way it was light at 5.45am the other morning (and yes, I realise you meant after the clocks went back)


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That shows sunrise at 6:46 an hour after you suggested it was getting light
		
Click to expand...

From the link I provided above:



Monday 26 October 2015
Â« Previous Day Next Day Â» 





Astromomical twilight begins (full darkness ends)

04:55


Nautical twilight begins (First light)

05:33


Civil twilight begins (Dawn)

06:12


Sunrise

06:46


Transit (sun is at its highest)

11:48


Sunset

16:49


Civil twilight ends (Dusk)

17:23


Nautical twilight ends (Nightfall)

18:02


Astromomical twilight ends (full darkness starts)

18:40


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

Sorry Del. Don't wear it.
IT WAS NOT LIGHT AT 5.45AM ON SUNDAY MORNING.


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Sorry Del. Don't wear it.
IT WAS NOT LIGHT AT 5.45AM ON SUNDAY MORNING.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, but it was. This would rather depend on the amount of cloud cover, but yesterday we had clear skies, and there was definitely enough twilight to walk about outside by this time, which I did.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Sorry, but it was. This would rather depend on the amount of cloud cover, but yesterday we had clear skies, and there was definitely enough twilight to walk about outside by this time, which I did.
		
Click to expand...

I'm up the road and it wasn't light at 5:45 - it was started to become light after 6:30 when I arrived at the golf club - forget all your nautical light nonsense - it starts to become daylight conditions as the sun starts to rise


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## Slab (Oct 26, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			So you're in a boat in the middle of the Indian Ocean????
Sorry Del, there is no way it was light at 5.45am the other morning (and yes, I realise you meant after the clocks went back)
		
Click to expand...

If it matters I can confirm that it was indeed light in the indian ocean at 5:30am yesterday morning (also I did have a look and I did not see Del, so I don't think he was here )


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Astromomical twilight begins (full darkness ends)

04:55

Nautical twilight begins (First light)

05:33

Civil twilight begins (Dawn)

06:12
		
Click to expand...

Let me get this right. It was getting light on the moon at 4:55am, and it was getting light on a boat at 5:33am, and it was getting light if you are a civilian at 6:12am... but what time does it get light if you're in the army?


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## bladeplayer (Oct 26, 2015)

This thread is nuts....

Predictable responses in places ..

Quiet funny in others ..


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm up the road and it wasn't light at 5:45 - it was started to become light after 6:30 when I arrived at the golf club - forget all your nautical light nonsense - it starts to become daylight conditions as the sun starts to rise
		
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Depending on cloud cover, you normally get at least 30 minutes of twilight before the sun rises and after it sets at our latitude, maybe a bit more if the skies are clear, as they were yesterday morning. 05.45 was actually 15 minutes AFTER official nautical twilight for Sunday, See the info I have already provided.  I am more concerned about the early sunset and onset of darkness in the evenings btw.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 26, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Let me get this right. It was getting light on the moon at 4:55am, and it was getting light on a boat at 5:33am, and it was getting light if you are a civilian at 6:12am... but what time does it get light if you're in the army?
		
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Moon army , Boat army  , or ordinary army Brian ? 

Irish army is 8.30am to 4.30pm so most don't get up til 7.30 is . so its bright enough for them to find the Curragh Camp


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## Grogger (Oct 26, 2015)

I was driving back to Portsmouth during the early hours this morning to get to work and I can confirm that at 05:45am it was dark, very dark!


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## IainP (Oct 26, 2015)

If often walk the dogs well after dark, if it is a night with a decent moon and not much cloud cover, then it is " definitely light enough to walk around outside at that time". The torch never comes out the pocket.

I'd be quite for sticking on daylight saving time all year, but the way the argument has been presented has not helped that cause. Maybe should have just posted the Telegraph article and left it as that.


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

Grogger said:



			I was driving back to Portsmouth during the early hours this morning to get to work and I can confirm that at 05:45am it was dark, very dark!
		
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Do you not believe the official tables I have quoted?  There was a bit more cloud cover this morning and the sunrise was a minute or two later, so I am not disputing what you say, but if you were driving on headlights it might have seemed darker than it actually was.


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## Grogger (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Do you not believe the official tables I have quoted?  There was a bit more cloud cover this morning and the sunrise was a minute or two later, so I am not disputing what you say, but if you were driving on headlights it might have seemed darker than it actually was.
		
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No I don't believe the tables I believe the image that my eyes produce and as for my headlights making that much of a difference, stop clutching at straws.


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm going to make one comment in this thread.....

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

Grogger said:



			No I don't believe the tables I believe the image that my eyes produce and as for my headlights making that much of a difference, stop clutching at straws.
		
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Are you sure that you don't have cataracts or poor night/twilight vision?  Why should the official tables be wrong?


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

As you may (or may not) know Delc, I am a very keen fisherman.
Had I walked out of my bivvie at 5.45am on Sunday morning I would have walked straight into the lake.
It was pitch dark at 5.45am irrespective of what your charts might say.
I will take a picture of my back garden at 5.45 tomorrow morning to show you how dark it is.
Three days won't make much of a difference.
If you argue that they will, I will take the picture at 6am to make up for the odd minutes.
It will still be dark.


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2015)

Imurg said:



			I'm going to make one comment in this thread.....

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

That doesn't appear to be a *light* hearted comment! If anything it appears a bit *dark*... perhaps you need to *lighten* up... I'll get my coat


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## Grogger (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Are you sure that you don't have cataracts or poor night/twilight vision?  Why should the official tables be wrong?
		
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No but I am completely blind and it was my guide dog that drove.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Let me get this right. It was getting light on the moon at 4:55am, and it was getting light on a boat at 5:33am, and it was getting light if you are a civilian at 6:12am... but what time does it get light if you're in the army?
		
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We Army people live, work, operate in the dark, what is this light you speak off?&#127771;


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			We Army people live, work, operate in the dark, what is this light you speak off?&#62235;
		
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Are them, like, your Ninja skills?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Are them, like, your Ninja skills?
		
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Shhhhhhh! &#128515;


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2015)

Just to clarify: both are before the SUNRISE

Nautical twilight: Nautical twilight occurs when the geometrical center of the Sun is between 6 degrees and 12 degrees below the horizon. This twilight period is less bright than civil twilight and artificial light is required for human activities.

Civil twilight occurs when the Sun is between 0 degrees and 6 degrees below the horizon. In the morning, civil twilight begins when the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon and ends at sunrise. In the evening, it begins at sunset and ends when the Sun reaches 6 degrees below the horizon.


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

It was the Scottish lobby than killed the experiment to stay on BST throughout the year that was run from 1968 to 1971. According to them it was a Sassenach plot to rob them of an hour of their daylight and to kill their children as they walked to school, despite statistics that showed a big fall in traffic casualties, even among Scottish children. That noted Scottish idiot Alex Salmond recently claimed that "Scotland would be plunged into darkness" by a similar scheme today!  I have news for him: The hours of daylight would stay exactly the same, but many people could make better use of them.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 26, 2015)

Grogger said:



			No but I am completely blind and it was my guide dog that drove.
		
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Not 100% sure but don't think that's what dog licences are for mate


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## bladeplayer (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



It was the Scottish lobby than killed the experiment to stay on BST throughout the year that was run from 1968 to 1971. According to them it was a Sassenach plot to rob them of an hour of their daylight and to kill their children as they walked to school, despite statistics that showed a big fall in traffic casualties, even among Scottish children. That noted Scottish idiot Alex Salmond recently claimed that "Scotland would be plunged into darkness" by a similar scheme today!  I have news for him: The hours of daylight would stay exactly the same, but many people could make better use of them.
		
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I KNEW IT ................... its always them, no need for rest of that post at all  


they don't wana golf early them lot , up all night pillaging & raiding & drinking mead :angry:
or maybe that was only  Dodger   ( for the older crew)


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## Crazyface (Oct 26, 2015)

CliveW said:



			Why not just shut all schools between October and March and open them from 8am to 8pm through the summer months with no holidays? That way kids wouldn't have to travel in the dark.   

Click to expand...

Thank God for that, I don't have to read anymore of this stuff going round and round.

WE HAVE A WINNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Depending on cloud cover, you normally get at least 30 minutes of twilight before the sun rises and after it sets at our latitude, maybe a bit more if the skies are clear, as they were yesterday morning. 05.45 was actually 15 minutes AFTER official nautical twilight for Sunday, See the info I have already provided.  I am more concerned about the early sunset and onset of darkness in the evenings btw.
		
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There was zero cloud cover and it was still dark just before 6:30


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was zero cloud cover and it was still dark just before 6:30
		
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Dog, bone......


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## Craigg (Oct 26, 2015)

Ahem...It was pitch black on Saturday morning at 7.00am when I started my drive to the golf club. Therfore it was pitch black on Sunday morning at 6.00am. And I mean pitch black Del, not iddy biddy light in the sky, nautical, astronomical or how ever uou may want to dress it up. IT WAS DARK!
Good God man, just admit you were wrong!
I really shouldn't  bite!


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## bladeplayer (Oct 26, 2015)

My engleesh is not grate so can anywon unrstan dis 




JUST STOP NOW PLEASE


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## Smiffy (Oct 26, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			My engleesh is not grate so can anywon unrstan dis 




JUST STOP NOW PLEASE

Click to expand...

No. I want to take a picture at 5.45am tomorrow to prove Del wrong.
Please allow me my moment of glory


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 26, 2015)

Got the answer................................

Del must have been up in his little plane at 5.45 AM, therefore he was much higher than the rest of us and therefore saw the sun before us groundhogs.

It is the only possible answer apart from the possibility that Del is bonkers


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## Paul77 (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm Scottish and I don't see the point in moving the clocks. Nor does anyone else I know. We're mostly confused by it to be honest, and have no idea why on earth it's needed. It's never really noticed because I'm far too busy at this time of the year to even bother when it gets dark. You go to work in the dark and come home in the dark.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 26, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			No. I want to take a picture at 5.45am tomorrow to prove Del wrong.
Please allow me my moment of glory
		
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Who would I be to take anyones moment in the sun  or not             ( see what I did there ha )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Who would I be to take anyones moment in the sun  or not             (* see what I did there ha *)
		
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Nope - please enlighten me (oops - there you go - me too)


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2015)

A mirage?

[video=youtube;NZfr2nZmoJc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZfr2nZmoJc[/video]


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## c1973 (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			It was the Scottish lobby than killed the experiment to stay on BST throughout the year that was run from 1968 to 1971. According to them it was a Sassenach plot to rob them of an hour of their daylight and to kill their children as they walked to school, despite statistics that showed a big fall in traffic casualties, even among Scottish children. *That noted Scottish idiot Alex Salmond* recently claimed that "Scotland would be plunged into darkness" by a similar scheme today!  I have news for him: The hours of daylight would stay exactly the same, but many people could make better use of them.
		
Click to expand...

Best statement of the thread right there.


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## delc (Oct 26, 2015)

I played in a Society day at Pine Ridge Golf Club in Camberley today. Nice course by the way. After the round we had a sit down meal and the Prize giving. I won 'nearest the pin' on the Par-3 17th hole, despite an otherwise carp (anag.) round. When we came to leave I thought it was at least 7pm because it was pretty dark outside, but a glance at my watch showed it was only 5.30 pm. I hate long dark Winter evenings due to GMT!


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## Cheifi0 (Oct 26, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			If you're now retired, why does it matter what the clock says, surely you can adjust your day accordingly, better than flexi-time.
		
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He has very generously decided to use the little daylight hours we have to fight the corner of the much afflicted majority who suffer as a result of the clocks changing.  Fight the power!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2015)

Cheifi0 said:



			He has very generously decided to use the little daylight hours we have to fight the corner of the much afflicted majority who suffer as a result of the clocks changing.  Fight the power!
		
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What a nice guy&#128540;


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2015)

I really like crisp bright mornings playing golf and then cosy dark evenings with the fire warming the room up with a nice glass of red


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I really like crisp bright mornings playing golf and then cosy dark evenings with the fire warming the room up with a nice glass of red
		
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In a ye olde pub with a good steak...


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## c1973 (Oct 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I really like crisp bright mornings playing golf and then cosy dark evenings with the fire warming the room up with a nice glass of red
		
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French, obviously.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			In a ye olde pub with a good steak...
		
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Sounds perfect :thup:


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## williamalex1 (Oct 26, 2015)

c1973 said:



			French, obviously. 

Click to expand...

Oui


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## ger147 (Oct 26, 2015)

delc said:



			I played in a Society day at Pine Ridge Golf Club in Camberley today. Nice course by the way. After the round we had a sit down meal and the Prize giving. I won 'nearest the pin' on the Par-3 17th hole, despite an otherwise carp (anag.) round. When we came to leave I thought it was at least 7pm because it was pretty dark outside, but a glance at my watch showed it was only 5.30 pm. I hate long dark Winter evenings due to GMT! 

Click to expand...

You are obviously mistaken as it couldn't have been dark at that time as there was at least an hour of nautical twighlight left.


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

45 minutes to go...


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2015)

Gutted! I've had to walk back from the papershop, having drove there without lights on I hit a gate post...


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

Can't believe we don't have it yet, c'mon.........!


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

My first picture of daylight taken at 5.30am.
Looking out over the back garden from the dining room door.....


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			My first picture of daylight taken at 5.30am.....
View attachment 17342

Click to expand...

Take the lens cap off!


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			My first picture of daylight taken at 5.30am.
Looking out over the back garden from the dining room door.....
View attachment 17342

Click to expand...

You certainly know how to string an audience along!

But we have it now, so thanks for that

Shows quite a bit more detail than I thought, is that the view facing east?


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			Shows quite a bit more detail than I thought, is that the view facing east?
		
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Nautical East yes.
I want to give it every chance.
2 more pics lined up. One at "D" time...5.45 and another at 6.00 for good measure.


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

05.45 and things are beginning to get a little clearer....
Neighbours car is lit up by streetlight. Looks rather moody.
I can't wait until 6.00 'cos I reckon the hanging gardens of babylon will be visible.


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2015)

I love what you've done with the place


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I love what you've done with the place
		
Click to expand...

I thought you'd be pleased Bob.

Eight minutes to go and I'm slapping on the factor 50


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			I thought you'd be pleased Bob.

Eight minutes to go and I'm slapping on the factor 50
		
Click to expand...

Is that a v easy lying next to the bin or just a piece of broken expanding trellis? 









Sorry couldn't resist


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			Is that a v easy lying next to the bin or just a piece of broken expanding trellis? 









Sorry couldn't resist 

Click to expand...

5 more minutes and all will become clear.


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			Is that a v easy lying next to the bin or just a piece of broken expanding trellis? 









Sorry couldn't resist 

Click to expand...

Smiffy.............with a training aid?

:rofl:


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			5 more minutes and all will become clear.


Click to expand...

That's strange, the sun is splitting the pavements up here


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm quite excited, almost a bit trembly (real word)


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

2 taken at 6am to show daylight in it's purest form...




You can just about make out Niagara falls in the background, with the Pyramids (far right) silhouetted against the blistering sun.


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			2 taken at 6am to show daylight in it's purest form...
View attachment 17345
View attachment 17346


You can just about make out Niagara falls in the background, with the Pyramids (far right) silhouetted against the blistering sun.
		
Click to expand...


Didn't know you'd moved to Torquay ?


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			2 taken at 6am to show daylight in it's purest form...
View attachment 17345
View attachment 17346


You can just about make out Niagara falls in the background, with the Pyramids (far right) silhouetted against the blistering sun.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty sure the neighbours VW beetle needs a wash too!




Anyway it'll be good to get dels opinion when he's finished mowing the lawn or whatever he does with the extra daylight


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Didn't know you'd moved to Torquay ?
		
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Did I mention Wildebeest??

:angry:


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm pretty sure the rest of my day is going to be boring now :mmm:


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## Fish (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			I'm pretty sure the rest of my day is going to be boring now :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

You'll probably be just kept in the dark..



:smirk:


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

Fish said:



			You'll probably be just kept in the dark..
:smirk:
		
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You were right Robin.
It is obviously too early for jokes (for you at least)


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			I'm pretty sure the rest of my day is going to be boring now :mmm:
		
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Fish said:



			You'll probably be just kept in the dark..



:smirk:
		
Click to expand...


No, I meant I work in the drilling industry


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			No, I meant I work in the drilling industry
		
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See!!
Too early for jokes.


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			See!!
Too early for jokes.


Click to expand...


Ah c'mon that one was pretty good, I'm fairly sure someone will laugh at it later!


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			Ah c'mon that one was pretty good, I'm fairly sure someone will laugh at it later!
		
Click to expand...

Del maybe????


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Del maybe????


Click to expand...

Point conceded 



Anyway I think you'll agree this extra hours of daylight's fantastic for increasing your post count :thup:


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## Smiffy (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			Point conceded 
Anyway I think you'll agree this extra hours of daylight's fantastic for increasing your post count :thup:
		
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It's wonderful.


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## chellie (Oct 27, 2015)

Best photo's of daylight I've seen for ages


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2015)

Slab said:



			Ah c'mon that one was pretty good, I'm fairly sure someone will laugh at it later!
		
Click to expand...


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## Craigg (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy.........Come out of the understairs cupboard with that camera.
 It's been light since 2.45am!


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## KenL (Oct 27, 2015)

Leaving for work at 6.50 this morning and it was just about light enough to tee off on the golf course.


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## USER1999 (Oct 27, 2015)

I was up at 2.30, and it was never really dark last night. I could see quite a lot out of my back window. No wildebeest though.

It started getting a bit lighter at 6.15, when I got up properly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2015)

I was awake at 5:45  - pitch black

left for work at 6:25 - still dark

Started to become light around and light enough to tee off at 7:00


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 27, 2015)

Just in case anyone wondered, it's 9am in London, and it's definitely bright.

Think that may help.


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## USER1999 (Oct 27, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I was awake at 5:45  - pitch black

left for work at 6:25 - still dark

Started to become light around and light enough to tee off at 7:00
		
Click to expand...

Odd, because I left for work at 6.50, and debated whether I needed to put any lights on. I went with head lights, but there were plenty of cars about without. It was light enough to see by, and be seen. Plenty light enough for golf.


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## patricks148 (Oct 27, 2015)

light here about 7 and dark by 5, give it a few weeks and it will be dark by 3.30


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## delc (Oct 27, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			light here about 7 and dark by 5, give it a few weeks and it will be dark by 3.30
		
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Isn't 3.30 pm about the time that Scottish children finish school and have to walk home in the dark, at increased risk to themselves?

I believe that last time permanent BST was tried there was a 17% fall in Scottish child road casualties!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 27, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			My first picture of daylight taken at 5.30am.
Looking out over the back garden from the dining room door.....
View attachment 17342

Click to expand...

Looks like a child on it's way to school in the distance?


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2015)

Del, surely as an elderly gent you miss most of the afternoon daylight napping...?


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## delc (Oct 27, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Del, surely as an elderly gent you miss most of the afternoon daylight napping...?
		
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I'm not that old yet!


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## Fish (Oct 27, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Del, surely as an elderly gent you miss most of the afternoon daylight napping...?
		
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at least its lighter now when queuing outside the butchers :smirk:


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