# £270 for the Old Course?



## Banchory Buddha (Jan 7, 2022)

£270 , a 40% rise in fee, ridiculous.  Golfing authorities need to get a grip of gouging like this, does nothing for the game https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/st-andrews-old-course-green-fees/


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2022)

Lots of these courses will have a rise in fees to make up for the drop in rounds they have had from mainly US visitors


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lots of these courses will have a rise in fees to make up for the drop in rounds they have had from mainly US visitors
		
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Doesn’t mean they have to turn the game into one exclusively for the wealthy - that’s certainly not the tradition and roots of the game in Scotland.  I’d love to play the OC but £270 is nonsense and beyond what I am willing to play for a round of golf.  It irritates me hugely, but TBH I am not going to lose sleep over it as there is diddly squat I can do other than express my disappointment and, to an extent, my concern.


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## Canary_Yellow (Jan 7, 2022)

Wow - that's a big rise. Possibly puts it in the "too much" category for me.

Although I guess it's not going to be out of step with other Open rota courses


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## Canary_Yellow (Jan 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Doesn’t mean they have to turn the game into one exclusively for the wealthy - that’s certainly not the tradition and roots of the game in Scotland.  I’d love to play the OC but £270 is nonsense and beyond what I am willing to play for a round of golf.  It irritates me hugely, but TBH I am not going to lose sleep over it as there is diddly squat I can do other than express my disappointment and, to an extent, my concern.
		
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V high fees for visitors is nothing new, costs remain low for locals to be members at wonderful courses.


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## abjectplop (Jan 7, 2022)

The time to play it is from 1st - 17th April, green fee "only" £137.


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## patricks148 (Jan 7, 2022)

Probably puts in in line with the other open venues, but it's a shame they have chosen to increase it by this much, it was always in reach of golfers as a one off, but this my now price some out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Doesn’t mean they have to turn the game into one exclusively for the wealthy - that’s certainly not the tradition and roots of the game in Scotland.  I’d love to play the OC but £270 is nonsense and beyond what I am willing to play for a round of golf.  It irritates me hugely, but TBH I am not going to lose sleep over it as there is diddly squat I can do other than express my disappointment and, to an extent, my concern.
		
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They haven’t turned the game into “exclusive for the wealthy” 🤦‍♂️

A good number of these courses over very good local rates and high visitors fees balance it out

And many rely on the us visitors


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## DRW (Jan 7, 2022)

yeek Think I paid £90(or 75) in winter the year before covid.

The  top venues in scotland appear to have gone/going the same way as the top irish courses. Eye watering fees.


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## Crow (Jan 7, 2022)

On my 60th my kids said that they'd pay for a round for me but before I could sort it Covid hit and then this hike.
I'm now resigned to the fact that I won't play The Old Course.


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## Captainron (Jan 7, 2022)

Crow said:



			On my 60th my kids said that they'd pay for a round for me but before I could sort it Covid hit and then this hike.
I'm now resigned to the fact that I won't play The Old Course.
		
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Just don’t buy an old club set for a month. Use that to pay for the round! 
So worth it!


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## IanM (Jan 7, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Just don’t buy an old club set for a month. Use that to pay for the round!
So worth it!
		
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He only pays £25 for a set!  

£270 for the Old Course is shocking.  What is more shocking is the 40% rise.  That goes against everything Scottish Golf used to stand for.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2022)

IanM said:



			He only pays £25 for a set!  

£270 for the Old Course is shocking.  What is more shocking is the 40% rise.  That goes against everything Scottish Golf used to stand for.
		
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That's exactly my feeling


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## Zig (Jan 7, 2022)

I played the Old Course a couple of weeks ago. Good weather, under a hundred quid on winter rate. Downside was a fair few bunkers were under repair, and it was fairway mats. 

Get on it in the winter, (and Portrush and RCD at their discounted winter rates) for the price of one round at an Open venue in the summer. And keep your fingers crossed for the weather. No brainer for me. Totally agree that peak summer prices have got ridiculous at all our 'top' venues in GB&I.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

I played it in September at £195 - was quite disappointed it had gone up so much when I saw this a month or so ago on the St Andrews Links website but I'm not surprised - Carnoustie was £270 last year - and it's not nearly the most expensive course.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 7, 2022)

It’s one course I’ve never had any interest in playing. I certainly wouldn’t pay anything like £270 for the privilege.


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## Bobthesock (Jan 7, 2022)

Zig said:



			I played the Old Course a couple of weeks ago. Good weather, under a hundred quid on winter rate. Downside was a fair few bunkers were under repair, and it was fairway mats.

Get on it in the winter, (and Portrush and RCD at their discounted winter rates) for the price of one round at an Open venue in the summer. And keep your fingers crossed for the weather. No brainer for me. Totally agree that peak summer prices have got ridiculous at all our 'top' venues in GB&I.
		
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Is it mats on fairways only? Do you have the option to go to the side? What about chipping from surrounds etc?


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## Jimaroid (Jan 7, 2022)

It’s unsurprising given the loss of visitor income recently but I don’t think the Old is still that badly priced in relative terms to Kingsbarns and Carnoustie.

The real scandal here is the prices of the New and the Jubilee now.


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## sunshine (Jan 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lots of these courses will have a rise in fees to make up for the drop in rounds they have had from mainly US visitors
		
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That's not how market forces work.

The reason they have upped the price is because there is a huge demand for tee times in excess of supply. And with the Open this year there will be no shortage of people prepared to fork out for the privilege (grudgingly).

Previously, the Old Course was probably the cheapest Open rota course, even though it is the most famous and able to charge the most. Sadly, it looks like they've decided to test how far they can go.

When we first came out of lockdown I was hoping that the lack of US visitors might lead to lower green fees, but it seems that there are plenty of golfers in this country who are prepared to splash out.


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## sunshine (Jan 7, 2022)

For comparison, Sunningdale is now £300 a round or £500 a day ticket.


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## chellie (Jan 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s one course I’ve never had any interest in playing. I certainly wouldn’t pay anything like £270 for the privilege.
		
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Same for us.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

Kingsbarns £346 this summer
Muirfield £310
Carnoustie £270 (no rise from 2021)
Royal Troon £285
Dumbarnie £270


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## louise_a (Jan 7, 2022)

I payed £175 to play it about 5 years ago, don;t think I could justify paying £270 if I was looking to play it now.


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## Zig (Jan 7, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Is it mats on fairways only? Do you have the option to go to the side? What about chipping from surrounds etc?
		
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Mats for all closely mown areas. Did notice that you get a lot more spin chipping from a mat! 

I'd say it doesn't detract from the experience. Was more disappointed that the road hole bunker was out of play... I hit my second shot in it and dropping it out behind left me with a tougher shot than if I'd have tried it from the bunker!


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## tugglesf239 (Jan 7, 2022)

Bet they are skint yeah. Have to feel really sorry for them on this Open year….

Anyone dressing up the green fees of open rota clubs jumping through the roof as justifiable, needs to give their head a wobble frankly.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

Zig said:



			Mats for all closely mown areas. Did notice that you get a lot more spin chipping from a mat! 

I'd say it doesn't detract from the experience. Was more disappointed that the road hole bunker was out of play... I hit my second shot in it and dropping it out behind left me with a tougher shot than if I'd have tried it from the bunker!
		
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I walked it on Sunday (Link to pics), was surprised by how many bunkers were out of play, though understand why they are doing lots of work. I'd be happy to play it off mats but kind of think that the bunkers are the main thing that would scare visitors to the Old Course so that takes a bit away from the experience.


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## Zig (Jan 7, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Kingsbarns £346 this summer
Muirfield £310
Carnoustie £270 (no rise from 2021)
Royal Troon £285
Dumbarnie £270
		
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I haven't played Troon or Dunbarnie and the headline prices here look very expensive. Have managed to play a few of these more cheaply though...
Carnoustie: they had a three course offer (Champ, Burnside and Buddon) for less than the full fee here - well worth it. 
Kingsbarns: Played it for my brother's 30th, so did pay the price (think £200ish at the time) but they offered a repeat round for £80, so we did that over two days, which made it feel a bit more affordable. One of the most spectacular places I've played. Worth it for the holes along the water's edge.
Muirfield: 18 holes plus carvery. Winter (Feb) for £100. Awesome.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			Bet they are skint yeah. Have to feel really sorry for them on this Open year….

Anyone dressing up the green fees of open rota clubs jumping through the roof as justifiable, needs to give their head a wobble frankly.
		
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It's not just Open rota courses - £100 plus for a round of golf at a rated course isn't unusual around Tayside/Fife/East Lothian now.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

Zig said:



			I haven't played Troon or Dunbarnie and the headline prices here look very expensive. Have managed to play a few of these more cheaply though...
Carnoustie: they had a three course offer (Champ, Burnside and Buddon) for less than the full fee here - well worth it.
Kingsbarns: Played it for my brother's 30th, so did pay the price (think £200ish at the time) but they offered a repeat round for £80, so we did that over two days, which made it feel a bit more affordable. One of the most spectacular places I've played. Worth it for the holes along the water's edge.
Muirfield: 18 holes plus carvery. Winter (Feb) for £100. Awesome.
		
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There are lots of offers/ways of getting cheaper for a fair few of expensive courses.

I can get half price at Carnoustie because I am an Angus Council tax payer
Dumbarnie does £129 price for Scottish Golf members in mid summer and a bigger discount for Fife residents
Gleneagles do twilight rates which are a fair bit less than half price

Sadly short of getting a St Andrews Links ticket or getting signed on by a links ticket holder I can't think of a cheap way of getting on the Old Course.


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## patricks148 (Jan 7, 2022)

louise_a said:



			I payed £175 to play it about 5 years ago, don;t think I could justify paying £270 if I was looking to play it now.
		
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davidy233 said:



			There are lots of offers/ways of getting cheaper for a fair few of expensive courses.

I can get half price at Carnoustie because I am an Angus Council tax payer
Dumbarnie does £129 price for Scottish Golf members in mid summer and a bigger discount for Fife residents
Gleneagles do twilight rates which are a fair bit less than half price

Sadly short of getting a St Andrews Links ticket or getting signed on by a links ticket holder I can't think of a cheap way of getting on the Old Course.
		
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Play it on a sunday🤣


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## Bobthesock (Jan 7, 2022)

Zig said:



			Mats for all closely mown areas. Did notice that you get a lot more spin chipping from a mat! 

I'd say it doesn't detract from the experience. Was more disappointed that the road hole bunker was out of play... I hit my second shot in it and dropping it out behind left me with a tougher shot than if I'd have tried it from the bunker!
		
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Thanks for that, thinking of going up next month so I'll make sure I look if the road bunker is in play first 👍. I sort of want to go in it to see what happens


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Play it on a sunday🤣
		
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Naw - hundreds of dog walkers littering the place - could always do what the university students do - get drunk and wander out for a few holes in the late summer evenings


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 7, 2022)

£270 for a round of golf is ridiculous imo.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 7, 2022)

sunshine said:



			That's not how market forces work.

The reason they have upped the price is because there is a huge demand for tee times in excess of supply.
		
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It really isn’t, they have to recover lost income due to a lack of visitors over the last two years. As a charitable trust they had already communicated to ticket members some very strong indicators of “cost containment” being required until at least 2023.  

It’s never been easier to get a tee time on the links, the availability and lack of visitors this year has been notable amongst local members. We are nowhere near what used to be normal. One simple indicator is the  very low number of caddies we see out working. 

Demand is low. Not supply.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 7, 2022)

Not just the big names; Machrihanish £120 per round summer peak, The Berkshire £190 or £255 for 36 holes, Littlestone £110, and so it goes on.  I'm grateful to have played most of the ones that I've wanted to as I'd begrudge paying some of the prices being asked here.  But as long as enough people pay it, they will continue to charge it.


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## Bratty (Jan 7, 2022)

I paid £75 to play the old course last year... with a member! Happy days!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 7, 2022)

Several thoughts - they are no do doubt trying to recoup lost earning for the last two years so can understand that. It is also now in line with other Open venues and given its iconic status I think they have simply applied a "levy" for the the St Andrews name.

Having said that, if it is on the bucket list then it is worth the effort of saving for it and playing. It isn't the best Open course (that has to be Carnoustie but thats a whole different argument) but I still think it'll attract a large overseas contingent so they'll get the money


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## sunshine (Jan 7, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			It really isn’t, they have to recover lost income due to a lack of visitors over the last two years. As a charitable trust they had already communicated to ticket members some very strong indicators of “cost containment” being required until at least 2023. 

It’s never been easier to get a tee time on the links, the availability and lack of visitors this year has been notable amongst local members. We are nowhere near what used to be normal. One simple indicator is the  very low number of caddies we see out working.

Demand is low. Not supply.
		
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Interesting. If there are loads of tee times available why don't they drop the rates to fill them? Does the same apply for Carnoustie etc?

I really thought Covid would create the conditions for me to head off to some of these bucket list courses at more affordable rates (silver lining) but it hasn't materialised.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

Interested to see a tweet from UKGofGuy on Twitter in August which featured a magazine cutting from Golf World which listed the public golf courses you could play back in 1972 - the Old Course was 75p - the New course was 30p. Carnoustie Championship was 60p. Been a while since those sort of prices were kicking about.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 7, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			It really isn’t, they have to recover lost income due to a lack of visitors over the last two years. As a charitable trust they had already communicated to ticket members some very strong indicators of “cost containment” being required until at least 2023. 

It’s never been easier to get a tee time on the links, the availability and lack of visitors this year has been notable amongst local members. We are nowhere near what used to be normal. One simple indicator is the  very low number of caddies we see out working.

Demand is low. Not supply.
		
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So if demand is low, why go for a massive price increase? Just drives visitors away.

Doesn’t make any economic sense.

It was on my bucket list,


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So if demand is low, why go for a massive price increase? Just drives visitors away.

Doesn’t make any economic sense.

It was on my bucket list,
		
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Because they are expecting the US Visitors to come back this year


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So if demand is low, why go for a massive price increase? Just drives visitors away.

Doesn’t make any economic sense.

It was on my bucket list,
		
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I don't know about St Andrews but I know that at Carnoustie the Championship is still full - it's just full of local season ticket holders rather than a mix of them and visitors.

The courses at Monifieth where I have a season ticket are the same (mobbed but few visitors) and we've lost a massive amount of revenue (although pennies compared to the Open venues) - the business model of the trusts depends on visitor fees subsidising local season ticket holders and paying for the upkeep of the courses.

Saturday's ballot results for the Old Course has seven visitors over two tee times - course is full but with locals.


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## IanM (Jan 7, 2022)

Members' Clubs like our are packed out with members playing so no room for visitors,  especially at this time of year with shorter days.  We manage demand down by increasing green fees.

Somewhere like the Old Course have lots of tourists.   If international visitors are not coming due to covid, can't see how hiking up prices will help.  Unless they are expecting "some " if fewer.  

But this saddens me.  The OC is a national monument and ordinary golfers should not be priced out. 

Conversely Kingsbarns is a commercial operation, they can charge what they think they can get away with. That is their perogative.


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## Zig (Jan 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because they are expecting the US Visitors to come back this year
		
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I think it's a bit more nuanced Clearly StA has lost a lot of revenue due to the pandemic, and esp the lack of foreign visitors. But I think that's cos they pay the highest prices; the course is still rammed, and it's really difficult to get in the ballot.... it took me and a pal 5 attempts before getting in a couple of weeks ago.

The only way you can get on this year is through the ballot too - they[ve said all their prebook tee times for 2022 have been taken up by those who couldn't come last year or the year before and carried over their bookings, and by the reduced availability due to the Open.

So, I think all the price rise will do will make it more expensive for ballot winners this year, and those who'll then make advance bookings going forward. And the price increase over the next couple of years will offset the money they lost last year. 

In no way am I a fan if the increases, or justifying them. I posted earlier that the prices are crackers IMHO But one thing to note... it was cheaper for us to play TOC a couple of weeks ago than almost any of the other top courses in England or Scotland. Maybe the marketing guys at StA thought they shouldn't be the cheapest guys on the block anymore?


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## williamalex1 (Jan 7, 2022)

Only cost us £7 to play TOC back in 1980.
Gleneagles cost us £14 to play the old Glendevon and the Kings courses.
Sausage or bacon rolls cost  £5.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 7, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			I don't know about St Andrews but I know that at Carnoustie the Championship is still full - it's just full of local season ticket holders rather than a mix of them and visitors.
		
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Same here on the whole. It’s been a nice period for local members for easier tee times. So it’s been extra galling that I’ve not been able to capitalise on the opportunity myself through my own circumstances of the last year. 

To Fragger’s question, personally I don’t think reducing fees is the way to go given the likely situation of the next few years. Quite simply they need the big spenders in town, not the little ones.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Only cost us £7 to play TOC back in 1980.
Gleneagles cost us £14 to play the old Glendevon and the Kings courses.
Sausage or bacon rolls cost  £5.
		
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£5 for a bacon roll in 1980 - I'm not having that?


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## BrianM (Jan 7, 2022)

Lucky enough to be playing the New and Old in April, think its about £200, it has been booked pre-covid and they let us rebook each time due to the circumstances.
We will spend a bit of cash on breakfast and drams no doubt before we head out....
I'm thinking that loads of people will still pay that sort of money, it certainly wouldn't put me off if it was a course i really wanted to play.


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## IanM (Jan 7, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			£5 for a bacon roll in 1980 - I'm not having that?
		
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Probably closer to 50p


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## williamalex1 (Jan 7, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			£5 for a bacon roll in 1980 - I'm not having that?
		
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Not at a fiver a roll, picture that .
TBH I think that might've been for 2 rolls n saugage.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 7, 2022)

Zig said:



			they[ve said all their prebook tee times for 2022 have been taken up by those who couldn't come last year or the year before and carried over their bookings, and by the reduced availability due to the Open.
		
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This is a really good point that I’d forgotten was happening.


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## IanM (Jan 7, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			This is a really good point that I’d forgotten was happening.
		
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...and will the prices will come back down when it sorts itself out?


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## Bazzatron (Jan 7, 2022)

I've never played it, I'd pay that price if I had the chance and that's why they've done it. It'll still be full.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 7, 2022)

IanM said:



			...and will the prices will come back down when it sorts itself out? 

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Yes. Just like Petrol does.  😂


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Yes. Just like Petrol does.  😂
		
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And golf balls - don't forget the golf balls - all normal golfers should be able to afford Pro V1s


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## Dando (Jan 7, 2022)

It’s on my list of course to swear on so l’ll probably pay it


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2022)

I was lucky to be at gleneagles in September. I asked if they had been quiet due to lack of overseas visitors? 'On the contrary, never been busier'. Endless 4 balls was all I could see. The brits who would have gone abroad were staying home and spending their money there. Not what I expected but it made sense.

Perhaps ToC is not as lacking in visitors as people perceive and they have increased prices because they can?


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was lucky to be at gleneagles in September. I asked if they had been quiet due to lack of overseas visitors? 'On the contrary, never been busier'. Endless 4 balls was all I could see. The brits who would have gone abroad were staying home and spending their money there. Not what I expected but it made sense.

Perhaps ToC is not as lacking in visitors as people perceive and they have increased prices because they can?
		
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Got to do something to keep the locals season ticket price reasonable - anyone  outside St Andrews getting seven golf courses for a year for £240?


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## sunshine (Jan 7, 2022)

Zig said:



			In no way am I a fan if the increases, or justifying them. I posted earlier that the prices are crackers IMHO But one thing to note... it was cheaper for us to play TOC a couple of weeks ago than almost any of the other top courses in England or Scotland. Maybe the marketing guys at StA thought they shouldn't be the cheapest guys on the block anymore?
		
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Probably true, but a shame because I thought TOC is run as a charitable trust so has a different view on visitors compared with a privately owned members club, which is what most top courses are. 

Also I’d fully expect it to be cheaper than other courses if you’re playing off mats.


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## sunshine (Jan 7, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Got to do something to keep the locals season ticket price reasonable - anyone  outside St Andrews getting seven golf courses for a year for £240?
		
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One green fee = annual membership for a local. Incredible


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

sunshine said:



			One green fee = annual membership for a local. Incredible
		
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To be fair it will probably go up a tenner or so in the spring - does make me wonder why I’ve kicked around the country for last three decades instead of staying put in North East Fife - by the way if you don’t need the Old Course or the Castle then the rest cost a resident £125 a year


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Only cost us £7 to play TOC back in 1980.
Gleneagles cost us £14 to play the old Glendevon and the Kings courses.
Sausage or bacon rolls cost  £5.
		
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It was around the same time that me and a mate played Gleneagles Kings and Queens for IIRC £13 - it would have been a Saturday into the bargain.  Despite being skint students that was very affordable.  Played TOC between Christmas and New Year many moons ago with a member of the R&A and didn't pay a penny for the pleasure.


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## KenL (Jan 7, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Several thoughts - they are no do doubt trying to recoup lost earning for the last two years so can understand that. It is also now in line with other Open venues and given its iconic status I think they have simply applied a "levy" for the the St Andrews name.

Having said that, if it is on the bucket list then it is worth the effort of saving for it and playing. It isn't the best Open course (that has to be Carnoustie but thats a whole different argument) but I still think it'll attract a large overseas contingent so they'll get the money
		
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And your opinion. I've played ToC, Troon, Muirfield and Carnoustie.

Carnoustie is the "worst" and least memorable of those in my opinion. 😉


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## 4LEX (Jan 8, 2022)

sunshine said:



			For comparison, Sunningdale is now £300 a round or £500 a day ticket.
		
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Sunningdale is worth every penny, unlike St Andrews. The best 36 holes in the world.


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2022)

Was last there 5 years ago in the August. Can’t remember how much but it wasn’t that expensive. £15 a hole…wow!

I guess I’d still play it, but imagine paying that and getting rained on all the way round.


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## Tiger man (Jan 8, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			It’s unsurprising given the loss of visitor income recently but I don’t think the Old is still that badly priced in relative terms to Kingsbarns and Carnoustie.

The real scandal here is the prices of the New and the Jubilee now.
		
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So will it drop again once they have recouped the money from the loss of visitors?


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## KenL (Jan 8, 2022)

Tiger man said:



			So will it drop again once they have recouped the money from the loss of visitors?
		
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Very much doubt it.  Compared to the other Open venues it was cheap.


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## HowlingGale (Jan 8, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			To be fair it will probably go up a tenner or so in the spring - does make me wonder why I’ve kicked around the country for last three decades instead of staying put in North East Fife - by the way if you don’t need the Old Course or the Castle then the rest cost a resident £125 a year
		
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Imagine being able to play the New course (and Jubilee) just about any time you wanted for £125 a year. 😂.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 8, 2022)

You only need to pay tens of thousands of pounds in the over valued housing market of St Andrews to save a couple of hundred quid on the links ticket.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 8, 2022)

If some are prepared to pay it, then the fee is worth it. Personaly I don't see why "locals" should get it any cheaper than the visitors


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## davidy233 (Jan 8, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If some are prepared to pay it, then the fee is worth it. Personaly I don't see why "locals" should get it any cheaper than the visitors
		
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They don't


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 8, 2022)

KenL said:



			And your opinion. I've played ToC, Troon, Muirfield and Carnoustie.

Carnoustie is the "worst" and least memorable of those in my opinion. 😉
		
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Can't decide as not had the chance to play the others so can only go on what I've experienced


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## Duckster (Jan 8, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If some are prepared to pay it, then the fee is worth it. Personaly I don't see why "locals" should get it any cheaper than the visitors
		
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Think due to an act of parliament, all the St Andrews links courses are owned by the town of St Andrews so the residents get it cheap.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 8, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Can't decide as not had the chance to play the others so can only go on what I've experienced
		
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Which ones have you played? None in Scotland for me


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## AliMc (Jan 8, 2022)

KenL said:



			And your opinion. I've played ToC, Troon, Muirfield and Carnoustie.

Carnoustie is the "worst" and least memorable of those in my opinion. 😉
		
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Close Ken
1) Muirfield
2) Turnberry 
3) Royal Troon
4) Carnoustie 
5) Old Course

Just my opinion of course !

and:
136) North Berwick

Just a bit of fun 😉


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## KenL (Jan 8, 2022)

For me, Open venues I've played

1. Old Course (overall experience)
2. Royal Troon
3. Muirfield
4. Carnoustie

and for fun
100. Gullane 1
200. NB West 🤣


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## AliMc (Jan 8, 2022)

KenL said:



			For me, Open venues I've played

1. Old Course (overall experience)
2. Royal Troon
3. Muirfield
4. Carnoustie

and for fun
100. Gullane 1
200. NB West 🤣
		
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It's a good shout, the whole experience of going to bed at night knowing your travelling to St Andrews for a game, for us the drive up from home, arriving in the town and teeing it up is absolutely like no other, but as a golf course it's not as good as the others for me. We are lucky though to get to play it at a rate much lower than has been quoted, by whatever means


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## KenL (Jan 8, 2022)

AliMc said:



			It's a good shout, the whole experience of going to bed at night knowing your travelling to St Andrews for a game, for us the drive up from home, arriving in the town and teeing it up is absolutely like no other, but as a golf course it's not as good as the others for me. We are lucky though to get to play it at a rate much lower than has been quoted, by whatever means
		
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I paid full rate, £175 in 2015.


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## AliMc (Jan 8, 2022)

KenL said:



			I paid full rate, £175 in 2015.
		
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When I was the Payroll Manager in Edinburgh in  the PO I done a couple of favours for the Delivery Office Manager in St Andrews, he later became captain of one of the clubs that play out of St Andrews and invited me for a couple of games, happy times, doubt I will ever play it again, I've probably played Muirfield about 30 times which is probably why I rate it so highly


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## IanMcC (Jan 8, 2022)

Ridiculous money, for what looks a pretty characterless course at best on my TV. Would like to play the 17th though.


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## KenL (Jan 8, 2022)

AliMc said:



			When I was the Payroll Manager in Edinburgh in  the PO I done a couple of favours for the Delivery Office Manager in St Andrews, he later became captain of one of the clubs that play out of St Andrews and invited me for a couple of games, happy times, doubt I will ever play it again, I've probably played Muirfield about 30 times which is probably why I rate it so highly
		
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Did you get on Muirfield via PO?
My one time there cost £80 via a group that plays every year. Great value in July.
Have a friend who is a member at Royal Troon. £10 for a guest day ticket.  Been several times but not for a few years.
Carnoustie, signed on twice for about £25.


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## KenL (Jan 8, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			Ridiculous money, for what looks a pretty characterless course at best on my TV. Would like to play the 17th though.
		
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Are you on the wind up?  Course is fantastic.


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## davidy233 (Jan 8, 2022)

KenL said:



			Are you on the wind up?  Course is fantastic.
		
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Judging a links course via TV is always a sensible option


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## AliMc (Jan 8, 2022)

KenL said:



			Did you get on Muirfield via PO?
My one time there cost £80 via a group that plays every year. Great value in July.
Have a friend who is a member at Royal Troon. £10 for a guest day ticket.  Been several times but not for a few years.
Carnoustie, signed on twice for about £25.
		
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Yeah the Postal Golf Club in Edinburgh was one of the oldest works club in Scotland, I held most of the official positions in my 27 years in the PO, we had a long standing outing at Muirfield every year, 2nd week in July, changed to another date when The Open was there, played a few times with the stands up, used to tee off after 4 o'clock and paid around £20 to £30, I also played it a couple of times in the County Cup


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## IanMcC (Jan 8, 2022)

KenL said:



			Are you on the wind up?  Course is fantastic.
		
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No. I'm perfectly serious. The course looks quite dull to me. I caddied at Western Gailes and Old Troon as a lad, and would much rather play both of those, regardless of cost. Don't be taken in by nostalgia, I would add.


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## gopher99 (Jan 9, 2022)

I am lucky enough to have played the bucket list courses in Scotland years ago when it was cheaper, this year there will be hopefully a lot more travel and with that comes the Americans Japanese etc who will all pay top money to play these courses. It’s all down to whether you personally think it’s good value for money for the experience.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

KenL said:



			Are you on the wind up?  Course is fantastic.
		
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I wouldn't play it again for £70.00, let alone £270.00


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## Crazyface (Jan 9, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			It really isn’t, they have to recover lost income due to a lack of visitors over the last two years. As a charitable trust they had already communicated to ticket members some very strong indicators of “cost containment” being required until at least 2023. 

It’s never been easier to get a tee time on the links, the availability and lack of visitors this year has been notable amongst local members. We are nowhere near what used to be normal. One simple indicator is the  very low number of caddies we see out working.

Demand is low. Not supply.
		
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Utter crap. If demand is low then, as a business, you would lower you prices to draw in customers. Increasing prices would be a sure way of making sure you went out if business. The hike in prices is because they are greedy gets. They are preparing for the Megha rich to come over and hand over the dish without complaining now travel will be opened up. The golfing community should turn their back on the open this year to show that we are not prepared to be treated like this anymore. As for discounts, any resident of the UK should get the discount. Not just Scotland residents. We are the UK, at the moment, after all, aren't we?


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## Crazyface (Jan 9, 2022)

Oh and another thing. What the hell do these places do with all the money they take in? Share it round the staff? No I didn't think so. So what do they do with it? And don't give me maintenance costs. 270 per person per round the money must be piled up somewhere.


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## KenL (Jan 9, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			No. I'm perfectly serious. The course looks quite dull to me. I caddied at Western Gailes and Old Troon as a lad, and would much rather play both of those, regardless of cost. Don't be taken in by nostalgia, I would add.
		
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But, I formed my opinion after actually playing it. Nostalgia might be part of the overall package.


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I wouldn't play it again for £70.00...
		
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I would (if I was still nearby)! But certainly not for £270!. I've played it half dozen times, so 'magic apart' I'd sooner play other, better value, courses. Playing it 'the right way round' would be interesting though!



IanMcC said:



			...The course looks quite dull to me... Don't be taken in by nostalgia....
		
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Links courses generally/often look rather dull. I's only when you 'get to know them', as you probably would have on WG and OT, that their subtleties emerge. Nostalgia is certainly 1 reason folk make pilgrimage to St Andrews!


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Utter crap. If demand is low then, as a business, you would lower you prices to draw in customers.
		
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Is the correct answer.
As an example, when East Sussex National first opened it's doors it used to cost you a fortune to book a round up. After the initial clamor to play it had died down, the place was empty. Didn't take them too long to work out that an empty 1st tee wasn't generating any income.
So they dropped the price. A first tee with four players on it all paying £40.00 generates £160.00. An empty tee with nobody paying a fortune generates bugger all. Multiply bugger all by 40 tee slots a day, and you're heading West.


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Oh and another thing. What the hell do these places do with all the money they take in? Share it round the staff? No I didn't think so. So what do they do with it? And don't give me maintenance costs. 270 per person per round the money must be piled up somewhere.
		
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Several trusts set up to help local community
Here's (apparently) the major one https://www.standrews.com/work-with-us/local-community
And another... https://www.standrewscommunitytrust.co.uk


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## KenL (Jan 9, 2022)

Some clubs get more foreign visitors when they increase their green fee. American visitors who head to Scotland won't play "cheap" courses.
Believe it is £346 for Kingsbarns and £395 for Turnberry in 2022, makes the OC look a bargain!


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Is the correct answer.
As an example, when East Sussex National first opened it's doors it used to cost you a fortune to book a round

Multiply bugger all by 40 tee slots a day, and you're heading West.
		
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Would that make it West Sussex National?

I can't see how any golfer could think the Old Course looks dull.  But we've done that to death on these pages. 

I'm sure the assertion that Americans choose their courses based on how high the price is has some truth on it!


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2022)

KenL said:



			Some clubs get more foreign visitors when they increase their green fee. American visitors who head to Scotland won't play "cheap" courses.
Believe it is £346 for Kingsbarns and £395 for Turnberry in 2022, makes the OC look a bargain!
		
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Its a sad time when £270 to play 18 holes is considered a bargain.....


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## gopher99 (Jan 9, 2022)

I am going to South Africa at the end of Feb, we are playing Glendower, Royal J&K East course and Durban Country Club all held national opens and various other tournaments the cost of each course is around £20. That to me is great value, £270 is a lot of money to play one round.


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## KenL (Jan 9, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Its a sad time when £270 to play 18 holes is considered a bargain.....
		
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That's not what I said exactly...


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 9, 2022)

That’s a shame. Have yet to play the OC, but unless I somehow miraculously get a pay rise to be on a six figure salary I’m not gonna entertain the thought of paying £270 for a round of golf. 

I’ll try to keep ticking off top courses through open comps where possible and resign to the fact there’s a lot of great courses that I will never play.


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## Billysboots (Jan 9, 2022)

I’m not a skinflint, far from it, but I’m just not sure I could ever enjoy a round of golf knowing it had cost me the best part of £300. It’s that simple for me I’m afraid.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

I paid £54.00 to play Royal St David's last summer. Enjoyed it so much I delayed my trip home and went back and played it the next day too.


Billysboots said:



			I’m not a skinflint, far from it, but I’m just not sure I could ever enjoy a round of golf knowing it had cost me the best part of £300. It’s that simple for me I’m afraid.
		
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That's why I'll never play the likes of Wentworth, Trump whatever it's called etc. Rip off prices.


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## davidy233 (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I paid £54.00 to play Royal St David's last summer. Enjoyed it so much I delayed my trip home and went back and played it the next day too.

That's why I'll never play the likes of Wentworth, Trump whatever it's called etc. Rip off prices.
		
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Gone up a bit then - Royal St Davids is £100 this summer?


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Gone up a bit then - Royal St Davids is £100 this summer?
		
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Not if you do twilight rate...😉😉😉
I see it's increased to £65.00 this year. Still a bargain.
36 holes is £140.00. That'll do pig. Almost half the price of 18 at the Old Course and EVERY BIT AS ENJOYABLE, IF NOT MORE SO


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## davidy233 (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Not if you do twilight rate...😉😉😉
		
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There's often a way to get cheaper - I love a bargain price on a nice course.


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## Billysboots (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I paid £54.00 to play Royal St David's last summer. Enjoyed it so much I delayed my trip home and went back and played it the next day too.

That's why I'll never play the likes of Wentworth, Trump whatever it's called etc. Rip off prices.
		
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I’m sure the top courses are a real experience to play, and I would do my best to get value for money by hitting as many balls as possible, but at the back of my mind would always be the cost. I would far rather go and watch the pros play courses like Wentworth, which I have done many times, than pay the best part of £3 for every swing.

Throw into the mix that some of these courses will chew up and spit out the average club golfer, and I’m just likely to walk off having spent a small fortune, in relative terms, for 4/5 hours of mental torture.

I’ve been lucky enough to play Monte Rei in the eastern Algarve many times. It’s rated one of the best in Europe. But I’ve had the benefit of playing with a member at a massively reduced green fee. I’m not sure I’d be willing to pay the full green fee which is in the region of 250 Euros at peak times.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			There's often a way to get cheaper - I love a bargain price on a nice course.
		
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I'd pay the £140.00 day rate there in a heartbeat.
No pressure, no Marshall pushing you round, fantastic scenery.
In fact I'm booking it now. Roll on August.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

For fear of repetition, let me tell you of my experience playing the rip off that is the Old Course.
March 1991, seven of us went to Scotland for the 1st time and of course we had to play at the home of golf.
Pre-booked well in advance, and turned up on a typical cold, grey and damp Scottish morning. 3 ball went first, followed by the other 4 lads. Hardly anyone else on the course.
Things were going well for three or four holes and then a Marshall popped out of the gorse. I was in the threeball and we had pulled a hole out on the following four already. The Marshall started giving us advice on the ideal lines off the tee etc. but then started raking bunkers in his efforts to speed us along. I could understand it if the fourball behind had been right up our chuffers, but they weren't. As I say, there was hardly anyone else on the course, yet this guy was trying to get us round in record time. Now seriously, anybody that has ever played with me can vouch that I am not a slow player, nor were the lads that I was with. The whole thing stank and just reinforced what a money making bunch they are. As a result I don't remember anything about the course due to the pressure we were put under, and that is why I would never go back.
During the following years when we went to play Carnoustie instead, I don't think we saw a Marshall once.


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## CliveW (Jan 9, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Utter crap. If demand is low then, as a business, you would lower you prices to draw in customers. Increasing prices would be a sure way of making sure you went out if business. The hike in prices is because they are greedy gets. They are preparing for the Megha rich to come over and hand over the dish without complaining now travel will be opened up. The golfing community should turn their back on the open this year to show that we are not prepared to be treated like this anymore. As for discounts, any resident of the UK should get the discount. Not just Scotland residents. We are the UK, at the moment, after all, aren't we?
		
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Who said demand was low? There will always be a demand to play the Old Course whether it is from well off UK players or international ones. Do you honestly believe that if us mere mortals decide to boycott the Open this year they will pay any attention. If anything we should be protesting at the cost of £95 a day to attend the Open!


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## davidy233 (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			For fear of repetition, let me tell you of my experience playing the rip off that is the Old Course.
March 1991, seven of us went to Scotland for the 1st time and of course we had to play at the home of golf.
Pre-booked well in advance, and turned up on a typical cold, grey and damp Scottish morning. 3 ball went first, followed by the other 4 lads. Hardly anyone else on the course.
Things were going well for three or four holes and then a Marshall popped out of the gorse. I was in the threeball and we had pulled a hole out on the following four already. The Marshall started giving us advice on the ideal lines off the tee etc. but then started raking bunkers in his efforts to speed us along. I could understand it if the fourball behind had been right up our chuffers, but the weren't. As I say, there was hardly anyone else on the course, yet this guy was trying to get us round in record time. Now seriously, anybody that has ever played with me can vouch that I am not a slow player, nor were the lads that I was with. The whole thing stank and just reinforced what a money making bunch they are. As a result I don't remember anything about the round due to the pressure we were put under, and that is why I would never go back.
During the following years when we went to play Carnoustie instead, I don't think we saw a Marshall once.
		
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I can kind of sympathise with your experience and 100% believe it as I played the Old in a four ball during April 1992 on a golfing trip north with my mates when I lived down south - we had a marshall (on a moped if i remember correctly) checking on us a few times early on - he didn't try to hurry us along but he did mention that he was going ahead to chase the group of Swedish guys in the group ahead of us as they were losing their place - didn't see him after the 5th - would have cost you £30-£35 to play back then.

But thirty years is a long time to hold a grudge - we played the Old in September this year (My first time since '92) - didn't see a marshal and never felt pushed or held up - starter treated us like gold.


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## tugglesf239 (Jan 9, 2022)

The thing that irks me about this is possibly irrational. However St Andrew’s and the OC are the real life representation that this game of ours, is for everybody. From tour pro, to weekend warrior. We all have (had) the opportunity to play the hallow turf as equals.

That is now no longer the case. 

Earlier I stated that open venues should be available for all and whilst I think this is fair to an extent, if Carnoustie, muirfield et al want to charge through the nose, then begrudgingly I think fair enough.

However the OC is different. It’s our heritage, It’s the history and it was supposed to be about inclusiveness for all golfers.

Now perhaps I am looking at this through rose tinted glasses but it’s bloody St. Andrews for god sake.

If they are now only really interested in high rolling yanks then sod them.

I am not against Exclusivity in golf.

I’ve played plenty of very exclusive courses and feel Very at ease that courses like JCB exist. It’s their train sets so they can do what they want.

But not the old course. It’s just different in so, so many different ways.


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## Crazyface (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			For fear of repetition, let me tell you of my experience playing the rip off that is the Old Course.
March 1991, seven of us went to Scotland for the 1st time and of course we had to play at the home of golf.
Pre-booked well in advance, and turned up on a typical cold, grey and damp Scottish morning. 3 ball went first, followed by the other 4 lads. Hardly anyone else on the course.
Things were going well for three or four holes and then a Marshall popped out of the gorse. I was in the threeball and we had pulled a hole out on the following four already. The Marshall started giving us advice on the ideal lines off the tee etc. but then started raking bunkers in his efforts to speed us along. I could understand it if the fourball behind had been right up our chuffers, but they weren't. As I say, there was hardly anyone else on the course, yet this guy was trying to get us round in record time. Now seriously, anybody that has ever played with me can vouch that I am not a slow player, nor were the lads that I was with. The whole thing stank and just reinforced what a money making bunch they are. As a result I don't remember anything about the course due to the pressure we were put under, and that is why I would never go back.
During the following years when we went to play Carnoustie instead,* I don't think we saw a Marshall once*.
		
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I did, but he was only there to check everyone had paid. I was actually out of sync on his list as I was let out early as there was a gap in the tee times. He was as nice as nice could be. Had a lovely day. On my own, except for the wife, who was chief photographer that day. Birdied the 5th out of a horrendously deep greenside bunker. How I got the ball up on to the green I'll never know. Wouldn't have attempted it but the wife said, with a shrug, "you probably will not come back" and handed me my 64 deg wedge. Almost got a hole in one on the 13th, with 8 greenkeepers watching. Pressure? What pressure? All of them watched my shot from the tee, they were all round the green, and all praised my shot as I walked up. Memories......but never again, not at those prices! And for anyone who runs these robbing Open venues who happen to be reading this, just see what you are taking away from real golfers all over the country who support the game and have done though thick and thin. Now golf is, seemingly, on the up, you are cashing in. I hope you all rot in the biggest bunker that hell can provide.


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## evemccc (Jan 9, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Utter crap. If demand is low then, as a business, you would lower you prices to draw in customers. Increasing prices would be a sure way of making sure you went out if business. The hike in prices is because they are greedy gets. They are preparing for the Megha rich to come over and hand over the dish without complaining now travel will be opened up. The golfing community should turn their back on the open this year to show that we are not prepared to be treated like this anymore. As for discounts, any resident of the UK should get the discount. Not just Scotland residents. We are the UK, at the moment, after all, aren't we?
		
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Have been for the last 300 years!

Agreed - I do want to play TOC hugely, and when so many greats of the game eulogise about it (Bobby Jones, Nicklaus, Watson, Faldo and Woods) to the extent they do, and with the uniqueness of design and the history, I can’t pretend it won’t be the course I want to play most of all

But one look at the website makes my think it’s the most ‘corporate’ place around — in terms of the sponsorships and branding with Callaway and Allianze…seems a bit out of place with all that’s said about the Links Trust and all that
EDIT: Somehow I missed the post by @tugglesf239 - basically trying to say the same thing as that post!


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## evemccc (Jan 9, 2022)

I think that when many of us rank top courses, we are mostly talking about our experiences — and that short of playing a top course several times, it can be hard to rank courses objectively, as so much depends on PP, weather, conditions, how we played, prior expectation level, general mood etc. 
In fact some of the best memories of anything in life comes from being surprised and having no or low expectations smashed


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## pendodave (Jan 9, 2022)

I think the R&A have been a little asleep at the wheel on this. 
They (rightly) leaned on muirfield because they didn't fancy the look. 
Why don't they fancy the look that "normal" golfers might be excluded from these courses, and that being an "open venue" creates value for the courses in question?
I'm sure there are ways they could do this, if they cared. Many Scottish courses give discounts to SGU golfers; maybe EGU and WGU golfers could be offered similar? 1 discounted rate per ID code per year? 
There's definitely a way to achieve it if they wanted to. 

For the record, I played TOC in December a couple of years ago for £95 iirc. Bluebird day, no wind. Joined up with a couple of others, a very relaxed and enjoyable day. Really great experience.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2022)

To put it into some context - the Trust which run the links etc I believe lost a significant amount of money in 2020 because of Covid and prob a lot more this next year 

The course gives a lot of discount to SGU members and locals etc who have filled up the tee times but that level of fee isn’t going to offset the losses of those mainly continental visitors 

For me £270 to play the Old Course will be fine - would have no problems paying to play on the same course as all the greats of tbe game - the experience is unbelievable and it’s rare in sport to walk the same hallowed turk as the best the sport has seen. 

Golf is booming but it’s also going to try and recover a lot of lost money over the past 2 years. 

And as with life - there is always the choice - I can understand why the fees have gone up , I don’t think many will have not put their fees up this year 

But let’s remember - we can’t play at Wembley or Lords or Wimbledon but we can The Old Course and all the other great Open courses in the UK

At least we have the chance - just look at how many are out of reach in the US


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## Jimaroid (Jan 9, 2022)

CliveW said:



			Who said demand was low?
		
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I did, but specifically the context of visitor demand being low over the last two years due to the various travel restrictions and lockdowns.


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

tugglesf239 said:



			The thing that irks me about this is possibly irrational. However St Andrew’s and the OC are the real life representation that this game of ours, is for everybody. From tour pro, to weekend warrior. We all have (had) the opportunity to play the hallow turf as equals.

That is now no longer the case.

Earlier I stated that open venues should be available for all and whilst I think this is fair to an extent, if Carnoustie, muirfield et al want to charge through the nose, then begrudgingly I think fair enough.

However the OC is different. It’s our heritage, It’s the history and it was supposed to be about inclusiveness for all golfers.

Now perhaps I am looking at this through rose tinted glasses but it’s bloody St. Andrews for god sake.

If they are now only really interested in high rolling yanks then sod them.

I am not against Exclusivity in golf.

I’ve played plenty of very exclusive courses and feel Very at ease that courses like JCB exist. It’s their train sets so they can do what they want.

But not the old course. It’s just different in so, so many different ways.
		
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So who do you expect to subsidise your visit to the OC.  Or would you be happy to play it with divots, pitch marks etc everywhere or bunkers that haven't been renovated in decades?  To get the conditioning these top courses achieve costs alot alot of dosh,  which is one reason they charge what they do.  As others have pointed the OC  is run by a charitable trust and beyond donating small amounts to local good courses there is no profit in the fees they charge.  The OC is pretty unique in the hold it has over us with every golfer wishing to play it,  until this year the trust has charged less than it could have because frankly, it didn't need the money. However, with the losses, they will have made over the last 2 years that is no longer the case.  I for one do not begrudge them that,  though I'm not sure I could justify paying that sort of money having already played it.


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## davidy233 (Jan 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To put it into some context - the Trust which run the links etc I believe lost a significant amount of money in 2020 because of Covid and prob a lot more this next year

The course gives a lot of discount to SGU members and locals etc who have filled up the tee times but that level of fee isn’t going to offset the losses of those mainly continental visitors

For me £270 to play the Old Course will be fine - would have no problems paying to play on the same course as all the greats of tbe game - the experience is unbelievable and it’s rare in sport to walk the same hallowed turk as the best the sport has seen.

Golf is booming but it’s also going to try and recover a lot of lost money over the past 2 years.

And as with life - there is always the choice - I can understand why the fees have gone up , I don’t think many will have not put their fees up this year

But let’s remember - we can’t play at Wembley or Lords or Wimbledon but we can The Old Course and all the other great Open courses in the UK

At least we have the chance - just look at how many are out of reach in the US
		
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Not sure that SGU members get a discount at St Andrews (Id love to be wrong) - neither do locals - St Andrews residents and to a lesser extent North east Fife residents who are members of club in St Andrews do however get the best bargain season tickets in the World.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

Our local restaurant has lost out a lot over the last two years due to covid. I might go and suggest they double their prices to recoup some of it. That'll work. It's a great business model


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Not sure that SGU members get a discount at St Andrews (Id love to be wrong) - neither do locals - St Andrews residents and to a lesser extent North east Fife residents who are members of club in St Andrews do however get the best bargain season tickets in the World.
		
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I think you are right, no discount on TOC. Last time I played and had to pay the green fee rather than as a guest I payed the same as a punter from anywhere else. I think the SG have a rate for the castle course, but not many if any deals on open courses any longer, it's mostly newer courses where they have had some help from the local authority in some way  like Castle Stuart, Drumbarnie etc.


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## evemccc (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			So who do you expect to subsidise your visit to the OC.  Or would you be happy to play it with divots, pitch marks etc everywhere or bunkers that haven't been renovated in decades?  To get the conditioning these top courses achieve costs alot alot of dosh,  which is one reason they charge what they do.  As others have pointed the OC  is run by a charitable trust and beyond donating small amounts to local good courses there is no profit in the fees they charge.  The OC is pretty unique in the hold it has over us with every golfer wishing to play it,  until this year the trust has charged less than it could have because frankly, it didn't need the money. However, with the losses, they will have made over the last 2 years that is no longer the case.  I for one do not begrudge them that,  though I'm not sure I could justify paying that sort of money having already played it.
		
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Have PL football clubs trebled their season ticket prices this year because of zero attendance income since March 2020 at home games until August 21?


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## BrianM (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Our local restaurant has lost out a lot over the last two years due to covid. I might go and suggest they double their prices to recoup some of it. That'll work. It's a great business model
		
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Hardly comparable.
You had one bad experience and your slating it to death.
You need to let it go and move on with your life 😀


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			So who do you expect to subsidise your visit to the OC.  Or would you be happy to play it with divots, pitch marks etc everywhere or bunkers that haven't been renovated in decades?  To get the conditioning these top courses achieve costs alot alot of dosh,  which is one reason they charge what they do.  As others have pointed the OC  is run by a charitable trust and beyond donating small amounts to local good courses there is no profit in the fees they charge.  The OC is pretty unique in the hold it has over us with every golfer wishing to play it,  until this year the trust has charged less than it could have because frankly, it didn't need the money. However, with the losses, they will have made over the last 2 years that is no longer the case.  I for one do not begrudge them that,  though I'm not sure I could justify paying that sort of money having already played it.
		
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We don't have accounts for the last 2 years, but the Links Trust sure do make a profit, cash in hand end of 2019 was £13 million.


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## Billysboots (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Our local restaurant has lost out a lot over the last two years due to covid. I might go and suggest they double their prices to recoup some of it. That'll work. It's a great business model
		
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They tried something similar in Portugal with green fees in response to the recession half a dozen or so years ago and guess what?

Golfers started going to Turkey for their winter golf breaks instead.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 9, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			They tried something similar in Portugal with green fees in response to the recession half a dozen or so years ago and guess what?

Golfers started going to Turkey for their winter golf breaks instead.
		
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Not sure Vilamoura actually has any tee-times left and the price is still going up!!


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## Jimaroid (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			We don't have accounts for the last 2 years, but the Links Trust sure do make a profit, cash in hand end of 2019 was £13 million.
		
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The 2020 accounts are available. Revenue was down £20M in 2020 compared to 2019, £7M cash in bank.


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## Billysboots (Jan 9, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Not sure Vilamoura actually has any tee-times left and the price is still going up!!
		
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I’m not sure about these days - certainly a few years ago there was a lull in trade there.


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			We don't have accounts for the last 2 years, but the Links Trust sure do make a profit, cash in hand end of 2019 was £13 million.
		
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Missing the point, no group or individual benefits from the profit except as I say some local charities. So the accusation of greed motivating the increase is wide of the mark.


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Have PL football clubs trebled their season ticket prices this year because of zero attendance income since March 2020 at home games until August 21?
		
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What other organisations do to support their particular business model is irrelevant.  Besides gate receipts make up a small proportion of PL clubs revenue these days.


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			We don't have accounts for the last 2 years, but the Links Trust sure do make a profit, cash in hand end of 2019 was £13 million.
		
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Cash in hand doesn't equate to Profit!


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2022)

KenL said:



			That's not what I said exactly...
		
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To be fair it wasn't 
But when you quote the cost of the other courses.... TOC @£270 IS a bargain by comparison


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Our local restaurant has lost out a lot over the last two years due to covid. I might go and suggest they double their prices to recoup some of it. That'll work. It's a great business model
		
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Missing the point completely


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Imurg said:





KenL said:



			Some clubs get more foreign visitors when they increase their green fee. American visitors who head to Scotland won't play "cheap" courses.
Believe it is £346 for Kingsbarns and £395 for Turnberry in 2022, makes the OC look a bargain!
		
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Its a sad time when £270 to play 18 holes is considered a bargain.....
		
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Given their attitude to so many other things, it wouldn't surprise me if they did!
Especially as the cost of their 'top' courses approach $500


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## sunshine (Jan 9, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			The 2020 accounts are available. Revenue was down £20M in 2020 compared to 2019, £7M cash in bank.
		
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I would guess that a large portion of revenue is generated over the summer, so at the December year end the business needs to be sitting on a healthy cash balance to fund winter works and cover maintenance costs. 

And cash does not equal profit of course.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I would guess that a large portion of revenue is generated over the summer, so at the December year end the business needs to be sitting on a healthy cash balance to fund winter works and cover maintenance costs.

And cash does not equal profit of course.
		
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Not to forget the number of courses that the money has to cover and the biggest source of revenue would be TOC.


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## HeftyHacker (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Our local restaurant has lost out a lot over the last two years due to covid. I might go and suggest they double their prices to recoup some of it. That'll work. It's a great business model
		
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Apples and Oranges, as other have said.

Its supply and demand and, even with the elevated price, the demand is likely still there -  possibly more than ever with overseas tourists finally coming over after being delayed by two years. Given the price of its equally prestigious and historic neighbours, TOC may have actually been previously underpriced if you want to compare it to a business model and its "competitors".


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			The 2020 accounts are available. Revenue was down £20M in 2020 compared to 2019, £7M cash in bank.
		
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Thanks, couldn't find them. So nae exactly paupers, and 2021 was much better than 2020


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			What other organisations do to support their particular business model is irrelevant.  Besides gate receipts make up a small proportion of PL clubs revenue these days.
		
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Not in Scotland mate. 

Comparing SALT to the most avaricious grasping football league in the world is somehow appropriate though.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Cash in hand doesn't equate to Profit!
		
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They're a not for profit body. Cash in hand shows they are not in dire straights.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Hardly comparable.
You had one bad experience and your slating it to death.
You need to let it go and move on with your life 😀
		
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So not comparable to justifying the price of the green fee because the Old Course has lost out during covid??


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## sunshine (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Missing the point, no group or individual benefits from the profit except as I say some local charities. So the accusation of greed motivating the increase is wide of the mark.
		
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The locals benefit as the high green fees for tourists enable season ticket holders to enjoy incredible value. And I assume the people who set the prices are all locals…

Although the links trust is not run for profit, I’m sure there’s a lot of self interest involved.


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

sunshine said:



			The locals benefit as the high green fees for tourists enable season ticket holders to enjoy incredible value. And I assume the people who set the prices are all locals…

Although the links trust is not run for profit, I’m sure there’s a lot of self interest involved.
		
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But of the course there's  no self interest in those that are trying to justify the fee being lower.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Thanks, couldn't find them. So nae exactly paupers, and 2021 was much better than 2020
		
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75% loss in revenue and near 50% decline of cash with outgoings largely unchanged in the space of one financial year is not a healthy outlook.

2021 accounts aren’t published until May and suspicion is they won’t show much if any improvement. Visitor restrictions weren’t back to normal until late August, missing out on the majority of the peak season a second year running.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 9, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Although the links trust is not run for profit, I’m sure there’s a lot of self interest involved.
		
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But it is run for profit! The trustees have an obligation to provide growth and reinvestment into the links as a public park. Being a charitable trust doesn’t mean it shouldn’t make a profit and it would be criminal mismanagement if the trustees were not looking to generate such revenue. A simple example is that all the profits from its subsidary retail business are gifted back to the trust. This is easy to understand retail profit accrued by selling jumpers in a shop.


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## BrianM (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			So not comparable to justifying the price of the green fee because the Old Course has lost out during covid??
		
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Not in my opinion, golf and restaurants are completely different types of business who work off completely different business plans.
You could start comparing loads of different businesses and the impact COVID has had during the last 2 years.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2022)

A simple straw poll 

What would you think is the right price to pay to play The Old Course

And what’s the maximum you would pay for a round at the top courses


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A simple straw poll

What would you think is the right price to pay to play The Old Course

And what’s the maximum you would pay for a round at the top courses
		
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Does it matter? Not going to change the price and it is a consumer decision on whether you think its a price worth paying. If you do then pay the price and play if not don't. The same for any top end course.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Not in my opinion, golf and restaurants are completely different types of business who work off completely different business plans.
		
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Somebody, earlier in the thread, put forward the covid situation as justification for the rise in the green fee. 
Covid hasn't just affected the golf industry, it's affected every type of business in the world. 
But if another business, say a restaurant, increased it's prices in the same way, customers would be up in arms and vote with their feet, and ultimately wallets. 
Where's the difference??


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## SteveW86 (Jan 9, 2022)

Don’t forget to add in the cost of a caddy for the full experience


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## BrianM (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Somebody, earlier in the thread, put forward the covid situation as justification for the rise in the green fee.
Covid hasn't just affected the golf industry, it's affected every type of business in the world.
But if another business, say a restaurant, increased it's prices in the same way, customers would be up in arms and vote with their feet, and ultimately wallets.
Where's the difference??
		
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There could be loads of different factors why a restaurant has to increase prices due to COVID, arguably like you say every business in the world.
It's just not comparable industries in my opinion to justify your reasoning.
I'd almost say you are a bit miffed because you had ONE bad experience there, hence your opinion.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I'd almost say you are a bit miffed because you had ONE bad experience there, hence your opinion.
		
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And you'd be wrong in your assumption.
I loved Carnoustie but still wouldn't pay what they are asking for a round of golf now.
Total rip off


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## pendodave (Jan 9, 2022)

On the upside... 
I'm going to st Andrews in the spring and have a 3 day ticket for unlimited golf (including a booking on jubilee, new and castle) for £320.
I guess that sort of value has to be subsidised from somewhere.


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Somebody, earlier in the thread, put forward the covid situation as justification for the rise in the green fee. 
Covid hasn't just affected the golf industry, it's affected every type of business in the world. 
But if another business, say a restaurant, increased it's prices in the same way, customers would be up in arms and vote with their feet, and ultimately wallets. 
Where's the difference??
		
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Enough consumers will still play the OC at the inflated price,  they could have charged more and they would still be full to the brim.


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## BrianM (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			And you'd be wrong in your assumption.
I loved Carnoustie but still wouldn't pay what they are asking for a round of golf now.
Total rip off
		
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No worries.
It's all subjective anyway, and that goes for everything you buy or want,  when it comes down to it, everyone has the right to spend there money on what they want to and everyone's perspective of value.


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## evemccc (Jan 9, 2022)

If SALT


Jimaroid said:



			75% loss in revenue and near 50% decline of cash with outgoings largely unchanged in the space of one financial year is not a healthy outlook.

2021 accounts aren’t published until May and suspicion is they won’t show much if any improvement. Visitor restrictions weren’t back to normal until late August, missing out on the majority of the peak season a second year running.
		
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They could easily have had my £190 or whatever it was last summer in August 2020 - but TOC refused to take bookings for singles 

If they’d wanted to, they could very easily gained more income by doing this as there are plenty of singles who would have paid up


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

pendodave said:



			On the upside...
I'm going to st Andrews in the spring and have a 3 day ticket for unlimited golf (including a booking on jubilee, new and castle) for £320.
I guess that sort of value has to be subsidised from somewhere.
		
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I wouldn't consider that lump as 'value that has to be subsidised from elsewhere' - as it's £60/round at least! A good deal for both seller and buyer! Hope the weather is kind enough for you to take advantage of a good deal!


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A simple straw poll

What would you think is the right price to pay to play The Old Course

And what’s the maximum you would pay for a round at the top courses
		
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£150

I paid £125 for Trump international, it's on my doorstep and I had to see what had been built, that was a one off.

But outwith that solitary example, anything over £50 probably counts it out for me, especially if it's just a bounce game.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Enough consumers will still play the OC at the inflated price,  they could have charged more and they would still be full to the brim.
		
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So we're not golfers now, we're consumers???
Why not stick it up to £500.00 and make it really elitist??


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			They're a not for profit body. Cash in hand shows they are not in dire straights.
		
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So what! Charging more allows (forces even) them to distribute more!


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			So what! Charging more allows (forces even) them to distribute more!
		
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The "what" is that the previous comment was that they were in dire straits


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

What's amazing here, is that on a golf forum, some golfers are actually happy, and even backing a course charging nearly £300 for a round of golf, more than many clubs charge for an entire year's golf, but this is just dandy? It's quite astonishing.


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## JamesR (Jan 9, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I would guess that a large portion of revenue is generated over the summer, so at the December year end the business needs to be sitting on a healthy cash balance to fund winter works and cover maintenance costs.

And cash does not equal profit of course.
		
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Of course a lot of people have no idea about accounts and finance, and this see a positive cash balance on one particular day as the be all and end all.
The balance sheet only shows the financial position in that day. They could owe £millions according to the accounts, and thus be in a very poor position.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A simple straw poll

What would you think is the right price to pay to play The Old Course

And what’s the maximum you would pay for a round at the top courses
		
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The £270 seems to be around the going rate for an Open championship venue, so if everyone else is charging that, why would TOC not.  And of all the Open venues, TOC has something about it that none of the others have.

As for part 2 Phil, which top course?  Some I'd pay a lot for, others I wouldn't set foot on if it was free.  I suppose the answer to that is it depends which course.  Pine Valley, Cypress Point or Royal Melbourne I'd happily pay more than the Open venues.



HomerJSimpson said:



			Does it matter? Not going to change the price and it is a consumer decision on whether you think its a price worth paying. If you do then pay the price and play if not don't. The same for any top end course.
		
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Well apparently not to you, but given that a number of people have said that it is too expensive, it doesn't seem unreasonable for Phil to ask what people would pay.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			What's amazing here, is that on a golf forum, some golfers are actually happy, and even backing a course charging nearly £300 for a round of golf, more than many clubs charge for an entire year's golf, but this is just dandy? It's quite astonishing.
		
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I don’t think it’s ever that’s black or white 

I’m ok paying that level of money for the top courses because I’m paying some of the best courses in the World of Golf - most golf courses are priced relative to their quality and prestige

Memberships also have the added on location tax


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## JamesR (Jan 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A simple straw poll

What would you think is the right price to pay to play The Old Course

And what’s the maximum you would pay for a round at the top courses
		
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If the fee’s £270 then that’s what I’d pay.
Would prefer it to lower, but if it ain’t, it ain’t !


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			The "what" is that the previous comment was that they were in dire straits
		
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Where was that stated?
More twaddle?


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## JamesR (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			What's amazing here, is that on a golf forum, some golfers are actually happy, and even backing a course charging nearly £300 for a round of golf, more than many clubs charge for an entire year's golf, but this is just dandy? It's quite astonishing.
		
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No courses near me charge anything near £300. Unless they’re crappy munis.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Where was that stated?
More twaddle? 

Click to expand...

Post 117


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			What's amazing here, is that on a golf forum, some golfers are actually happy, and even backing a course charging nearly £300 for a round of golf, more than many clubs charge for an entire year's golf, but this is just dandy? It's quite astonishing.
		
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I think there's a (unhappy) realisation that courses will charge what they can get away with. 

One variable is that some courses don't want or need visitors so price accordingly.

That leaves us all with a choice.  You want to play a certain course?..... that's the price.   Of course, us handing over our cash isn't compulsory either.


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## pendodave (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			£150

I paid £125 for Trump international, it's on my doorstep and I had to see what had been built, that was a one off.

But outwith that solitary example, anything over £50 probably counts it out for me, especially if it's just a bounce game.
		
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£150 sounds appropriate for a trophy round.


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			So we're not golfers now, we're consumers???
Why not stick it up to £500.00 and make it really elitist??
		
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As I said they could but has a not for profit charitable trust (some in here don't seem to understand what that means) they just need to cover their costs.  And yes we are consumers,  not sure how the term golfer excludes us from that title.  Incidently what do the FA charge to play at Wembley.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			No courses near me charge anything near £300. Unless they’re crappy munis.
		
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Not sure what your point is? I didn't say courses in Derby charge £300 a year., I said many courses

Within 10 miles of my front door, Inchmarlo, Torphins, Lumphanan, Tarland, Dunecht House, Paul Lawrie Golf Centre, Braemar (OK it's 40 miles but it's up the valley)


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Post 117
		
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So your post was, indeed, utter twaddle!
No mention of 'dire straits' at all!



Here's the post btw.


doublebogey7 said:



			So who do you expect to subsidise your visit to the OC.  Or would you be happy to play it with divots, pitch marks etc everywhere or bunkers that haven't been renovated in decades?  To get the conditioning these top courses achieve costs alot alot of dosh,  which is one reason they charge what they do.  As others have pointed the OC  is run by a charitable trust and beyond donating small amounts to local good courses there is no profit in the fees they charge.  The OC is pretty unique in the hold it has over us with every golfer wishing to play it,  until this year the trust has charged less than it could have because frankly, it didn't need the money. However, with the losses, they will have made over the last 2 years that is no longer the case.  I for one do not begrudge them that,  though I'm not sure I could justify paying that sort of money having already played it.
		
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## davidy233 (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Not sure what your point is? I didn't say courses in Derby charge £300 a year., I said many courses

Within 10 miles of my front door, Inchmarlo, Torphins, Lumphanan, Tarland, Dunecht House, Paul Lawrie Golf Centre, Braemar (OK it's 40 miles but it's up the valley)
		
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Are you not stretching it with Tarland - bit further west than the rest and 30 miles from Paul Lawrie Golf Centre  - nice little country nine hole course though - always had top quality greens when I lived up that way.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			So your post was, indeed, utter twaddle!
No mention of 'dire straits' at all!



Here's the post btw.
		
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Do you ever actually read things?

_"frankly, it didn't need the money. However, with the losses, they will have made over the last 2 years that its no longer the case"_


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Are you not stretching it with Tarland - bit further west than the rest and 30 miles from Paul Lawrie Golf Centre  - nice little country nine hole course though - always had top quality greens when I lived up that way.
		
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LOL, once I read it back I realised I was a bit out. I didn't expect anyone here to actually realise tho so thought what the hell


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## davidy233 (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			LOL, once I read it back I realised I was a bit out. I didn't expect anyone here to actually realise tho so thought what the hell 

Click to expand...

I've not played Inchmarlo or Paul Lawrie's place but I've played the rest a good few times - I was a member at Alford for years


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Do you ever actually read things?

_"frankly, it didn't need the money. However, with the losses, they will have made over the last 2 years that its no longer the case"_

Click to expand...

More utter twaddle!
See post 173!


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			I've not played Inchmarlo or Paul Lawrie's place but I've played the rest a good few times - I was a member at Alford for years
		
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Ah spot on  

possibility we know each other then, I'm only a very recent Bunchory resident. 

Both those are very short nine holers, PLGC way overpriced as it's a par 3 course, Inchmarlo is good for what it is, also very short, I wouldn't class it as a full golf course either really, unlike the rest.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			More utter twaddle!
See post 173!
		
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That's literally from that post.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A simple straw poll 

What would you think is the right price to pay to play The Old Course

And what’s the maximum you would pay for a round at the top courses
		
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The answer to the first part is what it means to you. I don't have an emotional attachment to the history of the course so for me I'd pay £100. As a course it doesn't appeal more than that.

Second part, probably £150. Now, if you said I can play a particular top course for £155 I'm probably not going to miss for a fiver but but that would be the target, max, figure. 

ToC being £270 doesn't stress me, plenty of other courses to play.


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## JamesR (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Not sure what your point is? I didn't say courses in Derby charge £300 a year., I said many courses

Within 10 miles of my front door, Inchmarlo, Torphins, Lumphanan, Tarland, Dunecht House, Paul Lawrie Golf Centre, Braemar (OK it's 40 miles but it's up the valley)
		
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Ok got ya.
but why are Scottish course generally so cheap?


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Ok got ya.
but why are Scottish course generally so cheap?
		
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It's a mystery I couldn't fathom when living in England.

The only thing that is in any way a clue, might be Scottish courses tend to have a lot of volunteer roles, Secretary, treasurer etc, that often seem to be paid in English clubs, even when they're small. You also do seem to love having a pro, whereas you're as likely not to have a pro as have one in Scotland.


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			That's literally from that post.
		
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And were the words 'dire straits' therein? Absolutely not! Thus my 'utter twaddle' description. 

I think there might be a new description of something worse than 'utter twaddle' - 'a Banchoryism'! With apologies to other inhabitants!


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			And were the words 'dire straits' therein? Absolutely not!

I think there might be a new description of something worse than 'utter twaddle' - 'a Banchoryism'! With apologies to other inhabitants!
		
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Wow. Quite incredible on a number of levels. 

You realise in English there's a number of words and phrases you can use to say the same thing?


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

.



Banchory Buddha said:



			What's amazing here, is that on a golf forum, some golfers are actually happy, and even backing a course charging nearly £300 for a round of golf, more than many clubs charge for an entire year's golf, but this is just dandy? It's quite astonishing.
		
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I'm sure we'd all love to play the OC for a tenner,  some of us simply understand that is not how the world works.  Out of interest what do you think they should charge and what changes should they make to ensure the reduced fee covers their costs.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			.
*I'm sure we'd all love to play the OC for a tenner, * some of us simply understand that is not how the world works.  Out of interest what do you think they should charge and what changes should they make to ensure the reduced fee covers their costs.
		
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I didn't say that anywhere, Foxholer will be along shortly to tell you you're therefore speaking "utter twaddle"


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 9, 2022)

@Foxholer & @Banchory Buddha 
Please pack it in the both of you
Life really is too short

Rest of the forum can thank me later


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Not sure what your point is? I didn't say courses in Derby charge £300 a year., I said many courses

Within 10 miles of my front door, Inchmarlo, Torphins, Lumphanan, Tarland, Dunecht House, Paul Lawrie Golf Centre, Braemar (OK it's 40 miles but it's up the valley)
		
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Those I looked at all (the first 5) consisted of 9 holes, so understandable that golf on those is cheaper!


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## JamesR (Jan 9, 2022)

If you’re lucky Buddha you may join me on the “know-it-all’s” ignore list 🤞


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			.
*I'm sure we'd all love to play the OC for a tenner*,  some of us simply understand that is not how the world works.  Out of interest what do you think they should charge and what changes should they make to ensure the reduced fee covers their costs.
		
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I certainly would! I actually knew someone who, effectively, pretty much did!


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 9, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I didn't say that anywhere, Foxholer will be along shortly to tell you you're therefore speaking "utter twaddle"
		
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So answer my question.


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			So answer my question.
		
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Good Luck!


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2022)

Answering the question....   if I'd never played the Old Course before,  I'd pay the money.   It's the blooming Old Course.... if you have the cash, you play it.  

I was there last in 2018. (3rd visit)  When will I play it again? No idea. Is the cost a factor? Yes, and geography!  

If I get a call to go to Sunningdale or RSG for lots of cash... I'll go!  

Each to their own,  it's an individual call.  Folk have different priorities and budgets. 

If they charge too much, folk won't go.   Market forces and all that!


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## sunshine (Jan 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			But of the course there's  no self interest in those that are trying to justify the fee being lower.
		
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Exactly. Surely it’s up to the custodians of the links to determine their priorities. There’s probably a set of objectives to provide guidance. 

£270 for a visitor appears to be the going rate these days. I have no issues with a business charging a market rate (although it prices me out).

Charging £240 for annual membership of Seven courses is an incredible bargain and is a pretty clear demonstration of where their priorities lie. Market rate would be at least £7,000 surely?


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## HomecountiesJohn (Jan 9, 2022)

I have never played The Old Course but i will be making the journey far north in the forseeable and i will pay the going rate. 

In my mind it's iconic and the home of golf. It's a must play.

I can certainly understand some people who have a certain budget and thats their perogative.

I see it as the cost of dinner with wine in the City v 18 holes on an iconic golf course that i will  have memories to reminisce for the rest of my life.


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## CliveW (Jan 9, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			I see it as the cost of dinner with wine in the City v 18 holes on an iconic golf course that i will  have memories to reminisce for the rest of my life.
		
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😲  Now that is a real rip-off!!!


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## HomecountiesJohn (Jan 9, 2022)

CliveW said:



			😲  Now that is a real rip-off!!!
		
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Why is it a rip-off?

A quality 3 course  dinner, wine, water and coffee  at that price is a bargain provided it's served to the standard it should.

It's only a rip off when the standard of food/wine isnt served up to reflect cost.

Likewise golf courses.


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## CliveW (Jan 9, 2022)

£270 a head!!!


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## HomecountiesJohn (Jan 9, 2022)

CliveW said:



			£270 a head!!!
		
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Sorry Clive but I must be missing your point.


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## CliveW (Jan 9, 2022)

I cannot believe that anyone would pay £270 a person for a meal!


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## HomecountiesJohn (Jan 10, 2022)

CliveW said:



			I cannot believe that anyone would pay £270 a person for a meal!
		
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It’s not just ”a meal”.

People do and will continue to do. It’s all relative to what luxury in life you enjoy and can afford.

Without straying off topic, my point was that irrespective of whether you pay £270 for a full 3course dinner/wine, £27  Burger, chips and a pint of beer or £2.70 for a pre packed chicken salad sandwich it’s only a rip off when any of those don’t meet a standard whereby we think ” that was delicious or not worth £xxx”


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

CliveW said:



			I cannot believe that anyone would pay £270 a person for a meal!
		
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I know someone who paid quite a bit more than that - some years ago. But it was at The Fat Duck!


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## KenL (Jan 10, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Somebody, earlier in the thread, put forward the covid situation as justification for the rise in the green fee.
Covid hasn't just affected the golf industry, it's affected every type of business in the world.
But if another business, say a restaurant, increased it's prices in the same way, customers would be up in arms and vote with their feet, and ultimately wallets.
Where's the difference??
		
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Of course covid has affected the golf industry.  Many clubs lost hundreds of thousands in 2020 due to zero international visitors.


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## KenL (Jan 10, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			It's a mystery I couldn't fathom when living in England.

The only thing that is in any way a clue, might be Scottish courses tend to have a lot of volunteer roles, Secretary, treasurer etc, that often seem to be paid in English clubs, even when they're small. You also do seem to love having a pro, whereas you're as likely not to have a pro as have one in Scotland.
		
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Interesting statistic! In East Lothian, out of about 20 clubs, only 3 that I can think of don't have a pro. Muirfield, Gifford and Luffness.


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2022)

KenL said:



			Of course covid has affected the golf industry.  Many clubs lost hundreds of thousands in 2020 due to zero international visitors.
		
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That's what I said!!


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 10, 2022)

is 18. Anyway



Foxholer said:



			Those I looked at all (the first 5) consisted of 9 holes, so understandable that golf on those is cheaper!
		
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You go round twice mate, 9+9 = 18. Anyway, congrats, you're #4 on my ignore list


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 10, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			So answer my question.
		
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I corrected your mis-assertion, and have already given that figure further up the thread, read the thread before diving in


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2022)

The long and the short of it is... 
Anybody that would pay £270.00 for 18 holes of golf, or a meal, has got more money than sense.


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## Backache (Jan 10, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			The long and the short of it is...
Anybody that would pay £270.00 for 18 holes of golf, or a meal, has got more money than sense.
		
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Or possibly just more money than me.
If you have money you have to spend it on something at some point though. Why not on something you really enjoy? Personally I could just about conceive spending a lot of money on the old course as it would be a really special occassion for me, I would not spend that amount on a meal as I probably would not enjoy it as much and I generally prefer my food in a relaxed environment rather than one where a huge amount has been spent on the decor/ service etc. but each to their own.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 10, 2022)

pendodave said:



			On the upside...
I'm going to st Andrews in the spring and have a 3 day ticket for unlimited golf (including a booking on jubilee, new and castle) for £320.
I guess that sort of value has to be subsidised from somewhere.
		
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3 day ticket was £260 last summer, so that's a hefty increase as well.


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## KenL (Jan 10, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			That's what I said!!
		
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Apologies. Half asleep when I read your post.😴


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			£150

I paid £125 for Trump international, it's on my doorstep and I had to see what had been built, that was a one off.
 are 29
But outwith that solitary example, anything over £50 probably counts it out for me, especially if it's just a bounce game.
		
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Well, that'll certainly count you out at Trump International for a Spring round at the weekend... £225! Week day would just sneak in at £150 - but obviously above your 'non special' max. Both Scottish resident rates. Summer Scottish resident rates are £205 (weekday) and £325 (weekend). For those who are not scottish residents, Spring rate (any day) is £295 and Summer is £325.

So maybe TOC rates merely reflect the 'going rates'!

And, according to Kingsbarns's site, their (Spring and Summer resp) prices are £294 and £346! So, again, TOC prices seem RELATIVELY cheap!.


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## IanM (Jan 10, 2022)

You're right... those "going rates" are going a bit too fast though!


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## Red devil (Jan 10, 2022)

I'm not privy to the financial accounts of any golf club so I couldn't possibly comment on them. But one thing is obvious that Covid has had a devastating effect on club's incomes and if said clubs feel that one way of recouping those losses is to increase green fees then so be it. It's their decision to make, relying on the recent surge in golf participation they feel they can make hay. Will they kill the golden goose? Time will tell. I don't know myself but time will tell.
As for original comment  £270 for OC, yes it's,for the majority of us a fair chunk of money,but is it value for money in terms of satisfaction, fulfilment of dreams etc? .  That's for the payer to decide.
I will say this though,,before Covid golf was struggling player numbers were down,golf courses closing and there seemed only one way for golf,downhill. Covid has changed that and golf is enjoying a boom,for now! This year there will be more pressure on people's wallets either inflationary or other things to spend money on,holidays etc.
Clubs need to be very careful, yes by all means try and recoup your losses but as I mentioned earlier remember the golden goose.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

I'd like to give my opinion on this but I don't see the point, as the pedants will no doubt pounce.
Sad really.


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 10, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I corrected your mis-assertion, and have already given that figure further up the thread, read the thread before diving in
		
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Over 200 contributions and you expect me to remember who said what on all of them,  there's really no need to be insulting.

Anyway you only answered part of the question as far as I can see,  so I'll remind you of the second part,   how should the businesses model for the OC be changed to accommodate the £120  reduction.

Oh, and you haven't corrected mis-assertion of mine as there was no such animal.  You seem to have a talent for misreading was is said on these forums to suit your own agenda.


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## evemccc (Jan 10, 2022)

KenL said:



			Of course covid has affected the golf industry.  Many clubs lost hundreds of thousands in 2020 due to zero international visitors.
		
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When did relying on international visitors become the ‘norm’ though? 

My understanding (willing to be corrected) is that this is a lot more true for Scotland and Ireland than for many courses in England, and also, that it didn’t use to be the case, certainly not in the scale it is now.
Also, most true (obviously) of the upper-tier courses 

My formative golf experiences were in the mid 90s in Arran, Bute, and nearby, with ‘honesty boxes’ at many courses

Obviously the huge densely populated surrounds of England’s golf coast, and the Surrey/Berkshire heathlands, means that courses there have never ‘needed’ this model of (mostly) international visitors subsidising cheap local members


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## Bratty (Jan 10, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Foxholer & @Banchory Buddha
Please pack it in the both of you
Life really is too short

Rest of the forum can thank me later
		
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Thank you, Phil... 😉


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## evemccc (Jan 10, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			.
I'm sure we'd all love to play the OC for a tenner,  some of us simply understand that is not how the world works.  Out of interest what do you think they should charge and what changes should they make to ensure the reduced fee covers their costs.
		
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What other firms do is to leverage the increased value in the cost of sponsorship (Callaway, Allianze etc) and other corporate tie-ins

If it’s accepted as true that golf in booming globally, and this year is not only the 150th Open, but also at the Home of Golf, and likely will be graced with the presence of Tiger Woods, it’s not a precedent for St Andrews to increase revenue from its ‘partners’ — as the ‘value added’ to brands from this hugely increased media interest in SA will be much greater for the next few years


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			The long and the short of it is...
Anybody that would pay £270.00 for 18 holes of golf, or a meal, *has got more money than sense.*

Click to expand...

That’s a pretty poor comment 

It will always be down to what people believe is full value for the money - some may think it’s worth every penny , doesn’t mean they have more money than sense 

And when it comes to the value of things - you work in car sales - everything there is overpriced on the forecourt


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 10, 2022)

evemccc said:



			What other firms do is to leverage the increased value in the cost of sponsorship (Callaway, Allianze etc) and other corporate tie-ins

If it’s accepted as true that golf in booming globally, and this year is not only the 150th Open, but also at the Home of Golf, and likely will be graced with the presence of Tiger Woods, it’s not a precedent for St Andrews to increase revenue from its ‘partners’ — as the ‘value added’ to brands from this hugely increased media interest in SA will be much greater for the next few years
		
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And I am confident this is what they are attempting to do,  but all businesses have lost revenue due to Covid so these partners may just not have the money and anyway, contracts for this year Open will have been signed some while ago given the 150th was meant to take place last year.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

evemccc said:



			...
If it’s accepted as true that golf in booming globally, and this year is not only the *150th Open*, but also at the Home of Golf, *and likely will be graced with the presence of Tiger Woods*, it’s not a precedent for St Andrews to increase revenue from its ‘partners’ — as the ‘value added’ to brands from this hugely increased media interest in SA will be much greater for the next few years
		
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I very much doubt he'll be playing in the tournament though!


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## BiMGuy (Jan 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I very much doubt he'll be playing in the tournament though!
		
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I wouldn’t be surprised if he was playing. It’s an easy walk, short and not all that demanding of a course. If the weather is right, it’s not much more than a drive chip and putt competition. It could be his best chance of winning again.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

KenL said:



			Interesting statistic! In East Lothian, out of about 20 clubs, only 3 that I can think of don't have a pro. Muirfield, Gifford and Luffness.
		
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Muirfield doesn't have 'its own Pro', but points visitors towards Gullane's one. Luffness probably likewise (the couple of times I played there, I didn't go into the clubhouse).
It's probably 'economic' reasons - for both sides. Golf club can't justify 'decent' salary; Pro couldn't live on what club can offer.


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			you work in car sales - everything there is overpriced on the forecourt
		
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If you say so....
Checked our stock have you?


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## Ser Shankalot (Jan 10, 2022)

Red devil said:



			I'm not privy to the financial accounts of any golf club so I couldn't possibly comment on them. But one thing is obvious that Covid has had a devastating effect on club's incomes and if said clubs feel that one way of recouping those losses is to increase green fees then so be it. It's their decision to make, relying on the recent surge in golf participation they feel they can make hay. Will they kill the golden goose? Time will tell. I don't know myself but time will tell.
As for original comment  £270 for OC, yes it's,for the majority of us a fair chunk of money,but is it value for money in terms of satisfaction, fulfilment of dreams etc? .  That's for the payer to decide.
I will say this though,,before Covid golf was struggling player numbers were down,golf courses closing and there seemed only one way for golf,downhill. Covid has changed that and golf is enjoying a boom,for now! This year there will be more pressure on people's wallets either inflationary or other things to spend money on,holidays etc.
Clubs need to be very careful, yes by all means try and recoup your losses but as I mentioned earlier remember the golden goose.
		
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This .
Some clubs (and manufacturers) should be in a position to make lots of hay - doesn't just need to be pricing, but so many other ancillary revenue opportunities like tie-ins, media, expansion of customer base, etc that others have mentioned. But I think a lot are just one-dimensional and focused on price rises, and their golden goose could eventually be on life support when the current supportive market environment changes (which like all markets throughout history, will eventually happen at some point).  A past Wall St CEO had a great saying - be greedy, but long term greedy rather than short term obsessed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			If you say so....
Checked our stock have you?
		
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https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/355110/used-car-prices-skyrocket-all-time-high?amp

Used care prices have increased massively 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/money/price-new-car-rising-almost-24419624

New cars prices also increased 

Same car two years later more expensive


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/355110/used-car-prices-skyrocket-all-time-high?amp

Used care prices have increased massively

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/money/price-new-car-rising-almost-24419624

New cars prices also increased

Same car two years later more expensive
		
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Not sure what the relevance to used cars is????? Pointless really as not comparing like for like. Both paying a top course and buying a car are simply consumer decisions


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I wouldn’t be surprised if he was playing. It’s an easy walk, short and not all that demanding of a course. If the weather is right, it’s not much more than a drive chip and putt competition. It could be his best chance of winning again.
		
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I don't believe his swing/body would be 'up to it'.
I'm pretty sure I could find an article where he actually stated as much - after the PNC jolly.


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## HeftyHacker (Jan 10, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not sure what the relevance to used cars is????? Pointless really as not comparing like for like. Both paying a top course and buying a car are simply consumer decisions
		
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I think the point LP is making is that Smiffy is slating TOC for inflating their prices due to covid when he actually works in the car sales market -  where used and new car prices have also sky rocketed in the past two years.

 Although, in fairness, I suspect that the increase in car prices isn't Covid related but something else bordering on political.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			I think the point LP is making is that Smiffy is slating TOC for inflating their prices due to covid when he actually works in the car sales market -  where used and new car prices have also sky rocketed in the past two years.

Although, in fairness, I suspect that the increase in car prices isn't Covid related but something else bordering on political.
		
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Exactly - there is always context and you don’t see that if you just look at one post 

The other point was the suggestion that someone paying £270 for a round of golf has more money than sense 

But overall i can’t see many things that have got cheaper over the last two years


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## Imurg (Jan 10, 2022)

Smiffy's opinion on the cost of TOC and an expensive meal are his opinion..unless his opinion is that black is white, which is obviously wrong, that's exactly what it is..an opinion 
Others are of the opinion that those costs are acceptable  and, guess what....that's fine too.......
Some have no qualms about paying 500 quid for a driver - some think that anyone who does is an idiot...so what?
I think more than 150 notes for 18 holes anywhere is too much...doesn't mean I won't pay it if I feel it's what I want though..


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## Bdill93 (Jan 10, 2022)

By the time I get around to playing at St. Andrews I expect it will cost about £500 to play it 

I for sure would just do all I could to "get my monies worth" if I played it. Ensure you take it all in before you tee off on every hole. Id not pay those fees more than once.


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## sunshine (Jan 10, 2022)

So this thread features:
- an argument on Tiger’s fitness 
- an argument on the price of new cars
- an argument on what is a decent price for a 3 Michelin star dinner 

Why is there so much squabbling? 😂

I’d like to pour some petrol on the flames: the price of a round has gone sky high due to brexit.


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## davidy233 (Jan 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			By the time I get around to playing at St. Andrews I expect it will cost about £500 to play it 

I for sure would just do all I could to "get my monies worth" if I played it. *Ensure you take it all in before you tee off on every hole*. Id not pay those fees more than once.
		
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There's stuff you can't see from the tee on some of the holes - my mate stood on 12th tee and looked all around then hit it into one of the massive bunkers in middle of the fairway that weren't visible from the tee


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			By the time I get around to playing at St. Andrews I expect it will cost about £500 to play it 

I for sure would just do all I could to "get my monies worth" if I played it. Ensure you take it all in before you tee off on every hole. Id not pay those fees more than once.
		
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Having played it, albeit a very long time ago, it is in my opinion one of those courses you "should" play but of course that is dependent on an individuals circumstances and preferences. For me, the whole experience from walking around the town to standing there on the first tee, taking pictures of it all to the walk over the Swilken Bridge (and another obligatory picture) was worth it but of course the price I paid was significantly less than £270. Would I pay that much? If I hadn't played it then yes, I'd find a way to scrimp and save the budget to get up there, play (plus caddie fee) and the accommodation (so guess it could be closer to £450 with all that thrown in) because it is an iconic venue.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 10, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			There's stuff you can't see from the tee on some of the holes - my mate stood on 12th tee and looked all around then hit it into one of the massive bunkers in middle of the fairway that weren't visible from the tee
		
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I think he just meant the atmosphere of being there and the history of the course


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			There's stuff you can't see from the tee on some of the holes - my mate stood on 12th tee and looked all around then hit it into one of the massive bunkers in middle of the fairway that weren't visible from the tee
		
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Stroke Bunker is aptly named!


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## sunshine (Jan 10, 2022)

Anyone know how much it costs to be a member at other Open rota courses? 

Green fees are all the same ball park.


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## davidy233 (Jan 10, 2022)

Not sure about Carnoustie which is a links trust on somewhat of the same basis as St Andrews but I think it's in £750 per year ball park including membership of one of the clubs.


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## patricks148 (Jan 10, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Anyone know how much it costs to be a member at other Open rota courses?

Green fees are all the same ball park.
		
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I think a membership at one of the values that run on the St Andrews links Trust would be fairly cheap, but then of course you don't play all your golf on TOC, similar with Carnoustie a similar set up. Not sure if it's still going but Turnberry had a membership that was a just over £1000, but I think trump wanted to get ride of it. I the scheme of things Muirfield and Troon are that expensive ,though members I know are cagey when it comes to the actual fee. It's actually jumping through the membership hoops that's the hard part😉


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Exactly - there is always context and you don’t see that if you just look at one post
		
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So if used car prices have increased, so have the part exchange prices. They've kept pace. That's context for you


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## Rlburnside (Jan 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s a pretty poor comment

It will always be down to what people believe is full value for the money - some may think it’s worth every penny , doesn’t mean they have more money than sense

And when it comes to the value of things - you work in car sales - everything there is overpriced on the forecourt
		
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Agree anyone who spends more than 20k on a car has more money than sense 😂😂


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2022)

Rlburnside said:



			Agree anyone who spends more than 20k on a car has more money than sense 😂😂
		
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I agree.
I'd rather sell two £10k cars.
Two opportunities to sell GAP insurance, extended warranties etc. and rip everybody off.
Lubbly jubbly


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## Bdill93 (Jan 10, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			There's stuff you can't see from the tee on some of the holes - my mate stood on 12th tee and looked all around then hit it into one of the massive bunkers in middle of the fairway that weren't visible from the tee
		
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You get my point though - just take it all in. Its not just about how you play, its about where you're playing. 



HomerJSimpson said:



			Having played it, albeit a very long time ago, it is in my opinion one of those courses you "should" play but of course that is dependent on an individuals circumstances and preferences. For me, the whole experience from walking around the town to standing there on the first tee, taking pictures of it all to the walk over the Swilken Bridge (and another obligatory picture) was worth it but of course the price I paid was significantly less than £270. Would I pay that much? If I hadn't played it then yes, I'd find a way to scrimp and save the budget to get up there, play (plus caddie fee) and the accommodation (so guess it could be closer to £450 with all that thrown in) because it is an iconic venue.
		
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I feel I will be the same as you. I must play it one day, but probably only the once - done properly.


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## davidy233 (Jan 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			You get my point though - just take it all in. Its not just about how you play, its about where you're playing.
		
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I do get your point - just never miss an opportunity to tell people about my mate who was told "there's a couple of big bunkers you can't see in the middle of that fairway"

If you do get the chance to play the Old Course take it all in but it's not the history or atmosphere that I love the course for - it's an enormously fun course to play and if you avoid the bunkers/bad weather it shouldn't beat you up.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			By the time I get around to playing at St. Andrews I expect it will cost about £500 to play it 

I for sure would just do all I could to "get my monies worth" if I played it. Ensure you take it all in before you tee off on every hole. Id not pay those fees more than once.
		
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Well that's about how much I've spent playing TOC! But that's having played it 5 times and included several caddy costs. Loved the whole experience every time! Played Kingsbarns around the same period - just after it opened and near Sean Connery's group. Hearing his 'the bonker's the line' as he readied to play tee shot on 12 as I approached 14th green still makes me smile!


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## KenL (Jan 10, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Anyone know how much it costs to be a member at other Open rota courses?

Green fees are all the same ball park.
		
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I heard from a member of Muirfield a couple of years ago that the fees were £1200 and £800 for seniors. This dispelled the rumour that members wouldn't know the fees until they received a bill at the end of the year.

Membership is never advertised, so no idea who you get to join.

Royal Troon is similar.

Not an open venue, but Gleneagles is close to £3.5k per year.


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## IanM (Jan 10, 2022)

Annual subs at some amazing courses are very reasonable.... and the huge green fees are part of the reason!


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

KenL said:



			I heard from a member of Muirfield a couple of years ago that the fees were £1200 and £800 for seniors. This dispelled the rumour that members wouldn't know the fees until they received a bill at the end of the year.

Membership is never advertised, so no idea who you get to join.
...
		
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Sounds pretty similar to what someone I knew, who was close to a member and close to becoming a member mentioned also (allowing for inflation). Of course, the 'social side' of the club cost considerably more!!
There are considerable benefits from being an Open venue, that actually dwarf the not inconsiderate fee for holding the event.


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## sunshine (Jan 10, 2022)

IanM said:



			Annual subs at some amazing courses are very reasonable.... and the huge green fees are part of the reason!
		
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When a visiting fourball brings in a grand, you only need four visitors tee times a day (weekdays only) to generate £1m, which nicely subsidises the membership.


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## KenL (Jan 11, 2022)

sunshine said:



			When a visiting fourball brings in a grand, you only need four visitors tee times a day (weekdays only) to generate £1m, which nicely subsidises the membership.
		
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True. Muirfield only takes visitors 2 days per week despite being a pretty quiet course most of the time.  I wonder how much revenue they would make if they opened up.


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## rksquire (Jan 11, 2022)

I played Royal Portrush and whilst I enjoyed it, I worked it out at cost per hole and concluded it probably wasn't worth it.

At £270 for the Old Course, that's £15 a hole.  If the weather is terrible and you're not swinging well it's probably not great.  On the other hand I'd probably pay £15 to tee off and play out the first hole and another £15 for the 18th.  Overall, probably not value for money in my opinion.


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## patricks148 (Jan 11, 2022)

Most of these high costs are slightly driven my US visitors, esp open venues and courses in the top 100, the only trouble is most Americans have no clue how much the rounds cost. I did a few caddy jobs last few years and the majority where with tour companies..but for these guys compaired to some of the costs for top courses in the US  we are still pretty cheap.


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## Foxholer (Jan 11, 2022)

KenL said:



			True. Muirfield only takes visitors 2 days per week despite being a pretty quiet course most of the time.  I wonder how much revenue they would make if they opened up.
		
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That's not their primary purpose! They are a 'social club' based around golf. Income from 'visitors' subsidises their costs, but they are not a 'business'.  Likewise, the St Andrews set up is 'unique' - in a different way. It is definitely handled like a business though - at least from an external pov.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 11, 2022)

Is it that much money to play because the market will bear it 
or because they have to charge that much to meet operting expenses?  

The post WWII working class golf explosion is long over with.
Golf is very expensive today.
The game may be leaning toward becoming an elitist activity, even in egalitarian Scotland.

It seems to be heading that way in the US, I'm afraid.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Is it that much money to play because the market will bear it
or because they have to charge that much to meet operting expenses?

The post WWII working class golf explosion is long over with.
Golf is very expensive today.
*The game may be leaning toward becoming an elitist activity, even in egalitarian Scotland.*

It seems to be heading that way in the US, I'm afraid.
		
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It looks like that from a headline but it really isn't still. I have around 4 opens booked already next year. I'm playing some genuinely nice courses and the costs are between £12-£18 for the round. Now they are not Open courses, they have no historical meaning but they are all very good to play. A past time where I can be out for a good chunk of a day and the basic cost is £12-£18 is not elitist. ($14-$22 in your money )

Even looking at the thread about the cost of a round at forum members courses, note they are figures from club websites and may be cheaper via booking sites, shows plenty of courses at prices well below that to watch a game of football, rugby, eat out etc. We just have to accept that certain courses will be very expensive but that applies across most things in life.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It looks like that from a headline but it really isn't still. I have around 4 opens booked already next year. I'm playing some genuinely nice courses and the costs are between £12-£18 for the round. Now they are not Open courses, they have no historical meaning but they are all very good to play. A past time where I can be out for a good chunk of a day and the basic cost is £12-£18 is not elitist. ($14-$22 in your money )

Even looking at the thread about the cost of a round at forum members courses, note they are figures from club websites and may be cheaper via booking sites, shows plenty of courses at prices well below that to watch a game of football, rugby, eat out etc. We just have to accept that certain courses will be very expensive but that applies across most things in life.
		
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Overall, you fellows seem to be in better shape than we, here in the present time.
I'm glad that it's not looking as bleak for you.


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## chico (Jan 11, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Have PL football clubs trebled their season ticket prices this year because of zero attendance income since March 2020 at home games until August 21?
		
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Don't know about every business, but we used to go to the same holiday home every year and they put their prices up by over 50% when they opened up again. Don't know if they're recouping their losses but I'm not using them any more.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 11, 2022)

Just had a quick look at Royal County Down.  Summer Green Fee £290.  The Old Course is starting to look a bit more reasonable.


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## IanM (Jan 11, 2022)

chico said:



			Don't know about every business, but we used to go to the same holiday home every year and they put their prices up by over 50% when they opened up again. Don't know if they're recouping their losses but I'm not using them any more.
		
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We've been to a nice place in Cornwall regularly... was £550 a week in May ...they've doubled price in 2 years .

They're empty for peak season currently


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## TigerBear (Jan 11, 2022)

I've not played the OC, played every other course in the St Andrews Links setup.

Was hoping to play the OC at some point this year, especially given the 150th open. Out of principal I won't be doing that, if ever at all now.

Disgraceful.


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## Fabia999 (Jan 12, 2022)

Two thoughts go through my mind.

St Andrew’s is the most famous, significant and revered golf course in the world. £270 although steep is one of a kind. 

On the other hand, the course was bought by James Cheape to give back to the golfers, they say they don’t put gates up to keep it open to everyone but £270 isn’t for everyone. 

It’s a tough one


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## Bobthesock (Jan 12, 2022)

Played the new and the jubilee the last week, decent value at £45 each. Both tougher courses than the old as well


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## davidy233 (Jan 12, 2022)

Sky Sports showing St Andrews film right now


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Played the new and the jubilee the last week, decent value at £45 each. Both tougher courses than the old as well
		
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Played the New, for about the 3rd time, with a workmate many years ago in a howling wind - gusting 40-50 on their meter straight off the North Sea. Only got halfway down the 9th and didn't reach the green on 13 - both with solid Driver! Great fun though! Definitely excellent value for either of those courses on that hallowed land,


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## GreiginFife (Jan 12, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Played the new and the jubilee the last week, decent value at £45 each. Both tougher courses than the old as well
		
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Love the joob joob and always try to play it several times a year. Always great value by comparison.


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## CliveW (Jan 13, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Played the new and the jubilee the last week, decent value at £45 each. Both tougher courses than the old as well
		
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Winter rates and mats on fairways at this time of the year though.


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2022)

I wonder how much it would cost to play tennis on the centre court at Wimbledon, or play football with your mates at Wembley, or even a game of cricket at Lords.


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## IanM (Jan 13, 2022)

Got me thinking.

If Newport charges £60.  How many times extra should the OC.  

Four and a bit isnt far off when you look at it like that.


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## Smiffy (Jan 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I wonder how much it would cost to play tennis on the centre court at Wimbledon, or play football with your mates at Wembley, or even a game of cricket at Lords.
		
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Easy to say when you pay nothing anyway
😳😳😳


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Easy to say when you pay nothing anyway
😳😳😳
		
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Not any more, I've got to pay now.


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## big_matt (Jan 13, 2022)

Probably an unpopular view here but whilst its a steep increase overnight, i still dont think the new cost is unreasonable. It's the global home of the sport and holds the Open every 5 years, and at this new rate its still cheaper than many courses in the uk and significantly cheaper than playing on the famous professional courses in the states. I think the price has just gone from being great value before to more in line with modern pricing now.

As someone above said, if it was even permitted what would you be charged to play 4 hours of cricket on the square at lords or an afternoon of tennis at wimbledon centre court. I suspect it would be many multiples of £270. 

And i say this as someone to who £270 is a lot of money and would need to save to play there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2022)

Compared to some of the top English courses it is still pretty cheap, probably better quality as well.

I recall attending a Scottish tourism lecture given by an ex Gleneagles Hotel manager.
He started.........there are over 40 million golfers in the world and they all want to play one course.


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## Jaco (Jan 13, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			£270 , a 40% rise in fee, ridiculous.  Golfing authorities need to get a grip of gouging like this, does nothing for the game https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/st-andrews-old-course-green-fees/

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Agree that it’s a ridiculous price, but at least it’s a once in a lifetime experience to play such a course.
What I can’t get my head around are the prices in Spain and Portugal. I go there infrequently and play maybe 2 rounds, but how do ex pats afford to play a few rounds a week?


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## evemccc (Jan 13, 2022)

There’s always the option to play in winter…after all, it’s a links course - it’s supposed to be year-round excellent turf conditions


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## davidy233 (Jan 13, 2022)

evemccc said:



			There’s always the option to play in winter…after all, it’s a links course - it’s supposed to be year-round excellent turf conditions
		
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Turf is brilliant - even this time of year - I walked it last week and it's in excellent shape - but you'd be playing off mats


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## DaveR (Jan 13, 2022)

The rise in fees is disproportionate with inflation. My uncle was at RAF Leuchars in the late 60's and used to play TOC for 7/6' (37.5p for you youngsters). There is no way that is equivalent to £270 now yet the courses were still maintained and run correctly back then.


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## davidy233 (Jan 13, 2022)

DaveR said:



			The rise in fees is disproportionate with inflation. My uncle was at RAF Leuchars in the late 60's and used to play TOC for 7/6' (37.5p for you youngsters). There is now way that is equivalent to £270 now yet the courses were still maintained and run correctly back then.
		
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I played the Old Course several times in the late 80s, early 90s - the Old is very definitely groomed, presented better than it was back then - a lot. It's not always obvious when wandering around the edges or watching on TV but when walking down the fairways/looking at bunkers etc. up close it's much more manicured than your normal decent links course.

Whether that's a good thing for a links course is of course another matter - but it's obvious that a heap of money gets spent on conditioning - much, much more than 30 years ago.

It also went up a lot from 1971 when it was 75p to the first time I played it in 1988 - it cost me £6 then because I got signed on my an RAF Leuchars member - that was a third of the £18 green fee. Fours years late in Spring 1992 it had nearly doubled to £33.


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## DaveR (Jan 13, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			I played the Old Course several times in the late 80s, early 90s - the Old is very definitely groomed, presented better than it was back then - a lot. It's not always obvious when wandering around the edges or watching on TV but when walking down the fairways/looking at bunkers etc. up close it's much more manicured than your normal decent links course.

Whether that's a good thing for a links course is of course another matter - but it's obvious that a heap of money gets spent on conditioning - much, much more than 30 years ago.
		
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I get what you're saying but that doesn't justify the price hike. 2 or 3 junior greenkeepers on 18k a year can make a huge difference to the manicuring of a course.


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## davidy233 (Jan 13, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I get what you're saying but that doesn't justify the price hike. 2 or 3 junior greenkeepers on 18k a year can make a huge difference to the manicuring of a course.
		
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I've added a bit to my previous post re previous cost rises from my experience playing it a good while back.

The Links Trust is a big industry now - there's an army of greenskeepers and other staff. It would be interesting to see their employee numbers in 1988 versus now.

There's also been a fair bit of infrastructure too - there wasn't a Links clubhouse when i played it in 1992 - there are three big ones now between the courses. Plus a big practice facility etc. and they are building more stuff at the moment.


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## Foxholer (Jan 13, 2022)

DaveR said:



			The rise in fees is disproportionate with inflation. My uncle was at RAF Leuchars in the late 60's and used to play TOC for 7/6' (37.5p for you youngsters). There is no way that is equivalent to £270 now yet the courses were still maintained and run correctly back then.
		
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No argument with the 'disproportianate' statement, but understandable that commercial reality overrides any 'simple allowance for inflation' concept. Just a thought. Isn't there a reduced rate at TOC for 'the armed forces', especially those at Leuchars (now an Army base)? So maybe not quite the the 'bargain' it was then.


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## davidy233 (Jan 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No argument with the 'disproportianate' statement, but understandable that commercial reality overrides any 'simple allowance for inflation' concept. Just a thought. Isn't there a reduced rate at TOC for 'the armed forces', especially those at Leuchars (now an Army base)? So maybe not quite the the 'bargain' it was then.
		
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Not sure if being stationed at Leuchars counts as St Andrews resident - but there is an RAF Leuchars Golf club which plays over St Andrews Links, first time I played the Old Course I got signed on by an RAF Leuchars member - I'm a bit surprised at the name as Leuchars is an army camp now


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## Slab (Jan 14, 2022)

Jaco said:



			Agree that it’s a ridiculous price, but at least it’s a once in a lifetime experience to play such a course.
What I can’t get my head around are the prices in Spain and Portugal. I go there infrequently and play maybe 2 rounds, but how do ex pats afford to play a few rounds a week?
		
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Re expats
It's Probably similar in Spain etc as it is here. 
Expats rarely/never pay the standard/full green fee rate when visiting a course 
There's discounts and different rates for expats, resort tourists, members, opens, corporate events etc


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## Boomy (Jan 14, 2022)

TigerBear said:



			I've not played the OC, played every other course in the St Andrews Links setup.

Was hoping to play the OC at some point this year, especially given the 150th open. Out of principal I won't be doing that, if ever at all now.

Disgraceful.
		
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Bit dramatic that isn’t it. So you were hoping to play an open rota course, on the year the open is there (and a milestone open at that), at the home of golf and you are grumbling about paying the going rate? (Which even with a price rise is still cheaper than most open rota courses and way cheaper than the likes of Dumbarnie and Kingsbarns) 

When we played Royal Lytham last year and paid somewhere around £240 we got chatting to 2 members and asked out of curiosity what members guest rate is… £20 we were told. Did we let that spoil our enjoyment, no, it wasn’t even a talking point - we soaked up the atmosphere, the iconic holes, talked about opens we had watched there, spent ages looking around the clubhouse at the history, and then paid more money (good lord) for a nice meal sat overlooking the 18th watching other golfers fluff it up just as I did! What a fab day, a bucket list course, lots to talk about and lots of memories. 

It is frustrating when premium places charge premium prices (and increase them in line with demand) but that’s never going to change! If you want a meal cooked by a Michelin starred chef you have to pay hundreds of pounds, or you could go to a Weatherspoons and get a meal for a tenner. There’s one thing for sure, it’ll likely never be as cheap again as it is at present. No time like the present.


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## KenL (Jan 14, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Love the joob joob and always try to play it several times a year. Always great value by comparison.
		
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I loved the Jubilee, slightly preferring it to the New.


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## evemccc (Jan 14, 2022)

Boomy said:



			Bit dramatic that isn’t it. So you were hoping to play an open rota course, on the year the open is there (and a milestone open at that), at the home of golf and you are grumbling about paying the going rate? (Which even with a price rise is still cheaper than most open rota courses and way cheaper than the likes of Dumbarnie and Kingsbarns)

When we played Royal Lytham last year and paid somewhere around £240 we got chatting to 2 members and asked out of curiosity what members guest rate is… £20 we were told. Did we let that spoil our enjoyment, no, it wasn’t even a talking point - we soaked up the atmosphere, the iconic holes, talked about opens we had watched there, spent ages looking around the clubhouse at the history, and then paid more money (good lord) for a nice meal sat overlooking the 18th watching other golfers fluff it up just as I did! What a fab day, a bucket list course, lots to talk about and lots of memories.

It is frustrating when premium places charge premium prices (and increase them in line with demand) but that’s never going to change! If you want a meal cooked by a Michelin starred chef you have to pay hundreds of pounds, or you could go to a Weatherspoons and get a meal for a tenner. There’s one thing for sure, it’ll likely never be as cheap again as it is at present. No time like the present.
		
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You can’t really compare it to Dumbarnie, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart IMO 

Kingsbarns and TOC are clearly both golf courses in Fife that are highly regarded — but that’s as far as it goes really…the whole ethos and culture is pretty far apart


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## evemccc (Jan 14, 2022)

Boomy said:



			There’s one thing for sure, it’ll likely never be as cheap again as it is at present. No time like the present.
		
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100% true and my line of thinking exactly!

The trouble is it means 2021/22 gets expensive in terms of £££ and holidays taken from work 😜


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## GreiginFife (Jan 14, 2022)

KenL said:



			I loved the Jubilee, slightly preferring it to the New.
		
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Don't get me wrong. I also love the New as well. But the difference is that I can play like a sack of spuds on the Jubilee and still come off smiling. I just really like the course, it's layout and how challenging it can be even in a "slight" breeze.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 14, 2022)

evemccc said:



			You can’t really compare it to Dumbarnie, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart IMO

Kingsbarns and TOC are clearly both golf courses in Fife that are highly regarded — but that’s as far as it goes really…the whole ethos and culture is pretty far apart
		
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Dumbarnie is also well regarded. At least by everyone that I know or have spoken to that has played it. Myself included. It's a fantastic course, will it mature and get better? Yes. That doesn't detract from how good it is already.


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## KenL (Jan 14, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Don't get me wrong. I also love the New as well. But the difference is that I can play like a sack of spuds on the Jubilee and still come off smiling. I just really like the course, it's layout and how challenging it can be even in a "slight" breeze.
		
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Interesting that I didn't find the Jube harder than the New. I played to my hcp there, it was calm but that's the only time I can play to my hcp!


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## GreiginFife (Jan 14, 2022)

KenL said:



			Interesting that I didn't find the Jube harder than the New. I played to my hcp there, it was calm but that's the only time I can play to my hcp!
		
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I find any of the trust courses to be a bit benign when it's calm. I wouldn't say the Jubilee is harder, just that I find it more enjoyable for some reason. I think I've only played it a few times when it's been a "calm" day.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 14, 2022)

Dumbarnie is a much better course overall than Kingsbarns. If I did have to spend in the order of £300 on a round of golf I’d still choose the Old though.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 14, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I find any of the trust courses to be a bit benign when it's calm. I wouldn't say the Jubilee is harder, just that I find it more enjoyable for some reason. I think I've only played it a few times when it's been a "calm" day.
		
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How do you feel about them pricing the New and Jube the same now?

I really like the Jube, it has some holes I really love and I have a fond memory of it being the course where I've scored my best medal round on the Links. It can be tight and tough when the wind is up and it can be made harder with some long tee positions. Off the blues it's nothing to fear and is quite enjoyable provided we don't talk about the 17th. 

However, the conditioning has never quite matched the New. In recent years they've pulled out a LOT of gorse which has opened things up a bit but I still feel like it gets treated as a second child to the New and it's gotten a little shabby in places. What I hope for then is, now they're pricing the New and Jube equivalently they'll maintain them to an equivalent standard. If they don't I think it's very difficult to justify the increase in fees for the Jube.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 14, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			How do you feel about them pricing the New and Jube the same now?

I really like the Jube, it has some holes I really love and I have a fond memory of it being the course where I've scored my best medal round on the Links. It can be tight and tough when the wind is up and it can be made harder with some long tee positions. Off the blues it's nothing to fear and is quite enjoyable provided we don't talk about the 17th. 

However, the conditioning has never quite matched the New. In recent years they've pulled out a LOT of gorse which has opened things up a bit but I still feel like it gets treated as a second child to the New and it's gotten a little shabby in places. What I hope for then is, now they're pricing the New and Jube equivalently they'll maintain them to an equivalent standard. If they don't I think it's very difficult to justify the increase in fees for the Jube.
		
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I don't mind it as I find them to be two different courses in terms of challenge/playability but of equal standing (in my eyes). I agree that conditioning has been down on recent years but I've never really found it to be shabby per-se. Gorse seems to be going from a lot of links courses just now, is this a fashionable thing? 
You're spot on though, if the cost has been brough in to line with the New then I'd expect (hope) that the attention to condition and maintenance is also aligned.


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## CliveW (Jan 14, 2022)

The removal of gorse seems to be an effort to speed up play. The Eden in particular is now almost gorse free and almost unrecognizable from a few years ago.


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## TigerBear (Jan 15, 2022)

Boomy said:



			Bit dramatic that isn’t it. So you were hoping to play an open rota course, on the year the open is there (and a milestone open at that), at the home of golf and you are grumbling about paying the going rate? (Which even with a price rise is still cheaper than most open rota courses and way cheaper than the likes of Dumbarnie and Kingsbarns)

When we played Royal Lytham last year and paid somewhere around £240 we got chatting to 2 members and asked out of curiosity what members guest rate is… £20 we were told. Did we let that spoil our enjoyment, no, it wasn’t even a talking point - we soaked up the atmosphere, the iconic holes, talked about opens we had watched there, spent ages looking around the clubhouse at the history, and then paid more money (good lord) for a nice meal sat overlooking the 18th watching other golfers fluff it up just as I did! What a fab day, a bucket list course, lots to talk about and lots of memories.

It is frustrating when premium places charge premium prices (and increase them in line with demand) but that’s never going to change! If you want a meal cooked by a Michelin starred chef you have to pay hundreds of pounds, or you could go to a Weatherspoons and get a meal for a tenner. There’s one thing for sure, it’ll likely never be as cheap again as it is at present. No time like the present.
		
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If I went to a Michelin or Weatherspoons restaurant one week for a steak, whatever the price, then came back the next week and the price was inflated by over 40%, the front windows would be getting put in with my 6i 

Thank goodness the Home of Golf is a national treasure, its windows are safe for now

Its a poor decision imo, flies in the face of the roots and history of the game and pricing a section of golfers out of playing the hallowed turf does nothing for the game except increase the coffers at the Trust, and that goes for the rest of open rota courses!

Can I afford to pay it, yes. Do I want to, now, for that price, no. simples!


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## Leftitshort (Jan 15, 2022)

This thread cracks me up. Loads of fellas thinking TOC owes them something. They chop it around Drudsbury municipal twice a month and think they have a divine right to play @ st Andrews on the cheap. Pay or don’t pay. It’s not compulsory.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 15, 2022)

TigerBear said:



			If I went to a Michelin or Weatherspoons restaurant one week for a steak, whatever the price, then came back the next week and the price was inflated by over 40%, the front windows would be getting put in with my 6i 

Thank goodness the Home of Golf is a national treasure, its windows are safe for now

Its a poor decision imo, *flies in the face of the roots and history of the game* and pricing a section of golfers out of playing the hallowed turf does nothing for the game except increase the coffers at the Trust, and that goes for the rest of open rota courses!

Can I afford to pay it, yes. Do I want to, now, for that price, no. simples!
		
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What? You mean the roots and history that golf was originally only played by the social and economical elite. Where the poor were mere caddies or greensfolk? Those roots and history?


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## Jimaroid (Jan 15, 2022)

CliveW said:



			The removal of gorse seems to be an effort to speed up play. The Eden in particular is now almost gorse free and almost unrecognizable from a few years ago.
		
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It has worked to speed up play. I admit I was skeptical prior to them starting all this a few years back, whilst I think we've lost some hole definitions in places there are many examples of where the new open waste areas have improved the visuals and playability of the holes to retain fair punishment for bad shots. The 15th on the Jubilee still has all the charm but without the extremely penal misses into gorse in every conceivable direction. The 7th on the Old used to be a notorious snag for anyone that didn't make the carry past the 11th tee. The 1st on the Eden is much less penal now, it was getting silly how so many delays were being created immediately off the first tee.


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## davidy233 (Jan 15, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Gorse seems to be going from a lot of links courses just now, is this a fashionable thing?
		
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It's fashion/trend thing but aimed at restoring courses to the way they were intended to be - restoration of the original course (or something like it) is a big thing in the USA at the top courses and is becoming popular with some venues and golf architects here.

A large part of it is getting rid of stuff that has grown in and was never intended to take over - trees mainly on the classic courses in the states and gorse on links here - removal of gorse is something that's always happened historically but didn't seem to get done much over the last 50 years or so.

Good article here


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## Crow (Jan 15, 2022)

davidy233 said:



*It's fashion/trend thing but aimed at restoring courses to the way they were intended to be - restoration of the original course (or something like it) is a big thing in the USA at the top courses and is becoming popular with some venues and golf architects here.*

A large part of it is getting rid of stuff that has grown in and was never intended to take over - trees mainly on the classic courses in the states and gorse on links here - removal of gorse is something that's always happened historically but didn't seem to get done much over the last 50 years or so.

Good article here

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Does that mean that they'll be bringing the tees forward to the old yardages and how the course was intended to be played?


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## davidy233 (Jan 15, 2022)

Crow said:



			Does that mean that they'll be bringing the tees forward to the old yardages and how the course was intended to be played?  

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The Old Course doesn't seem to have got much longer (if we ignore the Championship tees which only get used by the pros) since 1927 - not sure when steel shafts became the standard but I'd say that's largely how far you can roll back.




Restoration principles seem to be largely about removing trees/gorse/scrub to make playing corridors the width they were originally intended (including restoring fairway width) and restoring green areas to their original shapes and areas - general opinion is that golf courses have got much narrower since the time architects refer to as 'the golden age' (Early 1900s).


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## TigerBear (Jan 15, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			What? You mean the roots and history that golf was originally only played by the social and economical elite. Where the poor were mere caddies or greensfolk? Those roots and history?
		
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Nope, the fact that this game originally was a sport that transcended class and open to all in Scotland. I mean look no further than TOC itself, it's a charitable trust! 

Those egalitarian traditions on the wane in recent times and certainly compounded now!


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2022)

TigerBear said:



			Nope, the fact that this game originally was a sport that transcended class and open to all in Scotland. I mean look no further than TOC itself, it's a charitable trust!

Those egalitarian traditions on the wane in recent times and certainly compounded now!
		
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I'd challenge the assertion that it was a 'sport that transcended class' from its origins! The cost of (feathery) balls alone would have been pretty enough to make it unaffordable by 'normal folk'! It was simply that the links were 'common land' and had been for 300 years! Here's a link to its history https://golfcollege.edu/history-saint-andrews-links-home-golf/ Note the point that the R&A was 'created by Noblemen, Landowners and Professors'.
HCEG (Muirfield's club) started on Leith Links and had similar military and professional roots, with same 'problems' of golf reducing archery practice.
The Links Trust has been in existence for less than 50 years!


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## patricks148 (Jan 15, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I don't mind it as I find them to be two different courses in terms of challenge/playability but of equal standing (in my eyes). I agree that conditioning has been down on recent years but I've never really found it to be shabby per-se. Gorse seems to be going from a lot of links courses just now, is this a fashionable thing?
You're spot on though, if the cost has been brough in to line with the New then I'd expect (hope) that the attention to condition and maintenance is also aligned.
		
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Played this morning for the first time in a couple of weeks and lots of gorse has been removed in that time, all of which is taking away the premium on accuracy. Same with Tain when I was a member not that long ago the course was tight off the tee and you defhad to be pretty straight off the tee and on approach shots  on a lot of holes but not any longer.


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Played this morning for the first time in a couple of weeks and lots of gorse has been removed in that time, all of which is taking away the premium on accuracy. Same with Tain when I was a member not that long ago the course was tight off the tee and you defhad to be pretty straight off the tee and on approach shots  on a lot of holes but not any longer.
		
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Makes for quicker rounds though, which has become more of a priority of late for several (pretty obvious, so no need to expand) reasons.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 15, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Played this morning for the first time in a couple of weeks and lots of gorse has been removed in that time, all of which is taking away the premium on accuracy. Same with Tain when I was a member not that long ago the course was tight off the tee and you defhad to be pretty straight off the tee and on approach shots  on a lot of holes but not any longer.
		
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First I saw of this was probably 2013 when I was still at Muckhart. 1st on the old nine was a long par 3 to a raised green which was originally protected on the right by loads of gorse and a steep run off bank on the left. 

Certain groups of members complained about it being too hard and lost balls in the gorse made it too tough resulted in it all being burned back. Ruined a perfectly good and challenging hole.


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I don't mind it as I find them to be two different courses in terms of challenge/playability but of equal standing (in my eyes). I agree that conditioning has been down on recent years but I've never really found it to be shabby per-se. Gorse seems to be going from a lot of links courses just now, is this a fashionable thing?
You're spot on though, if the cost has been brough in to line with the New then I'd expect (hope) that the attention to condition and maintenance is also aligned.
		
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I've only played it twice (in the same weekend a very long time ago) and also considered it equivalent to The New that I also played - as part of a deal. It wasn't in as good condition, but was being worked on, so 'forgave' that. Indeed, several memorable holes, though it didn't seem to flow quite as well as The New.


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## TigerBear (Jan 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'd challenge the assertion that it was a 'sport that transcended class' from its origins! The cost of (feathery) balls alone would have been pretty enough to make it unaffordable by 'normal folk'! It was simply that the links were 'common land' and had been for 300 years! Here's a link to its history https://golfcollege.edu/history-saint-andrews-links-home-golf/ Note the point that the R&A was 'created by Noblemen, Landowners and Professors'.
HCEG (Muirfield's club) started on Leith Links and had similar military and professional roots, with same 'problems' of golf reducing archery practice.
The Links Trust has been in existence for less than 50 years!
		
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Interesting read that, thanks for sharing  Of course there's an undeniable link to the upper echelons of society, but going back to the 15th century it was an accessible sport open and played by all - that's directly quoted from the R&A world golf museum when I was last up a couple of years ago. In Scotland at one point we had umpteen municipal courses all around the country and Glasgow in particular has numerous courses in certain areas that you wouldn't exactly describe as fit for a landowner or nobleman (although the SNP doing their best to erode that) and some of the best municipals can be found on the West coast, Ayrshire - the standard and condition of the courses there akin to that of a premium club course!


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## patricks148 (Jan 15, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			First I saw of this was probably 2013 when I was still at Muckhart. 1st on the old nine was a long par 3 to a raised green which was originally protected on the right by loads of gorse and a steep run off bank on the left.

Certain groups of members complained about it being too hard and lost balls in the gorse made it too tough resulted in it all being burned back. Ruined a perfectly good and challenging hole.
		
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They first removed a load at Tain about 2008, and there thinking was to speed up play, rough grew in its place. Trouble was when you fired one in the Gorse, that was it, but with rough, people would then spend ages looking for balls, but not with gorse, so didn't really have the desired effect🤣


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## davidy233 (Jan 15, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Played this morning for the first time in a couple of weeks and lots of gorse has been removed in that time, all of which is taking away the premium on accuracy. Same with Tain when I was a member not that long ago the course was tight off the tee and you defhad to be pretty straight off the tee and on approach shots  on a lot of holes but not any longer.
		
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Is it part of the making it easier for shorter hitters/less skilled golfers that was mentioned by Mackenzie & Ebert when they did alterations? They said then "The thrust of the proposals is to make the course more forgiving for the shorter players and to make it tougher for the longest and most skilful players"


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## KenL (Jan 16, 2022)

At my club, some patches of gorse have been thinned out, but no removed.
We are planting it in a couple of places between holes for definition.
Golf is becoming more important in terms of the environment and removing all the gorse would have a negative impact on wildlife.  Vitally important that if it is being removed that it is the dead of winter.


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## patricks148 (Jan 16, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Is it part of the making it easier for shorter hitters/less skilled golfers that was mentioned by Mackenzie & Ebert when they did alterations? They said then "The thrust of the proposals is to make the course more forgiving for the shorter players and to make it tougher for the longest and most skilful players"
		
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Alas on that point have missed the mark by some way. They put bunkers across the middle of quite a few fairways that are at a distance to catch medium.and shorter hitters where as long hitters fly these by some way. We didn't get that many scores in the 60's on the old course, now a few of the young lads are shooting these type scores almost every week. The old course was a bit shorter and the bunkers were quite penal,but there was a premium on accuracy and avoiding the pot bunkers.  They have made the course more fair in some aspects, the waste area type bunkers are not the penalty the pot bunkers were and you can  advance the ball some distance where as the old ones mostly you were just getting it out.  I suppose there has to be a happy medium between between pace of play and enjoyment on playing, but we also have competition s and the way things are going its getting so big hitters have a massive advantage over accuracy.  They certainly do at Nairn now.


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## Skytot (May 22, 2022)

Thinking of playing TOC next year for my mates 60th . So it’s £270 but do you have to have a Caddy ? Trying to keep costs down because me & my mate are hoping to treat the birthday boy


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## KenL (May 22, 2022)

Skytot said:



			Thinking of playing TOC next year for my mates 60th . So it’s £270 but do you have to have a Caddy ? Trying to keep costs down because me & my mate are hoping to treat the birthday boy
		
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No and you don't need one. Stay left pretty much everywhere.
Greens are not hard to read or tricked up.


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## patricks148 (May 22, 2022)

I believe its no (electric anyway)  trolleys before 12 noon to promote caddy use at that time of the day. I've had a caddy a couple of times when I've played it and it was worth tbh it rather than the the time I didn't and just hit it left all the way round🤣. It was worth it just for the green reading.


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## KenL (May 22, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I believe its no (electric anyway)  trolleys before 12 noon to promote caddy use at that time of the day. I've had a caddy a couple of times when I've played it and it was worth tbh it rather than the the time I didn't and just hit it left all the way round🤣. It was worth it just for the green reading.
		
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Good point about the trolleys. Don't think any are allowed, I carried my bag.

The Canadian guys we were paired up with had a caddy, he gave duff info on a couple of occasions.


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## Skytot (May 22, 2022)

Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses


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## need_my_wedge (May 22, 2022)

No you don’t but they do add to the experience. First time we played it was for mrs wedges 50th. I sorted caddies for it and it was well worth it. You can take a trainee caddie, which is what we did last time we played it. They are much cheaper. Because we were out early doors, trollies we’re not allowed, so did a trainee caddie for the mrs. He was a retired stock market trader, not a youngster just out of nappies, he was brilliant. He gave advice to all four players without hesitation, even the American chap added to our 3 ball. Think at the time he cost £30 plus tip.


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## need_my_wedge (May 22, 2022)

Skytot said:



			Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses
		
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Lundin Links, about 30 mins back towards Edinburgh, lovely little track. Scottscraig, about 15 mins north of St Andrew’s is also worth a visit. Looks like the prices have risen a bit since we played them 3-5 years ago. Both worth a visit though.


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## BrianM (May 22, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I believe its no (electric anyway)  trolleys before 12 noon to promote caddy use at that time of the day. I've had a caddy a couple of times when I've played it and it was worth tbh it rather than the the time I didn't and just hit it left all the way round🤣. It was worth it just for the green reading.
		
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This is right, hence why we teed off at 12:10 last month 😂


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## abjectplop (May 22, 2022)

Skytot said:



			Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses
		
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Most courses pretty pricey I'd imagine. Maybe try Anstruther, 9 hole course but £35 for 18 in peak season.


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## patricks148 (May 22, 2022)

Skytot said:



			Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses
		
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You can't go wrong with the new or the jubilee at St Andrews, cheaper that toc and just as good.


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## gopher99 (May 22, 2022)

I took my dad up there in 2006 for his retirement present, we hired a caddy for him and it was an amazing experience. We played the old course, new course, Ladybank and Scotscraig. It’s a once in a lifetime trip, and i would just say go for it.


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## Rlburnside (May 22, 2022)

Cruden Bay £145 for a midweek round , look on for sale section and you could play it for £30 now that’s a bargin. 

Also you would be helping HFH charity.


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## CliveW (May 22, 2022)

Rlburnside said:



			Cruden Bay £145 for a midweek round , look on for sale section and you could play it for £30 now that’s a bargin.

Also you would be helping HFH charity.
		
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Aye, but it is over 100 miles further north and a two hour car trip each way. (Great course though.)


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## CliveW (May 22, 2022)

One course I really enjoy, and it is rarely mentioned is Balbirnie Park near Glenrothes. A challenging parkland course with a friendly welcome.  https://www.balbirniegolf.com/


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## Banchory Buddha (May 22, 2022)

Skytot said:



			Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses
		
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St Michaels meant to be worth a look


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## Banchory Buddha (May 22, 2022)

Rlburnside said:



			Cruden Bay £145 for a midweek round , look on for sale section and you could play it for £30 now that’s a bargin.

Also you would be helping HFH charity.
		
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Not a hidden gem
Not cheap
Nowhere near St Andrews.

Great post otherwise like


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## Rlburnside (May 22, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Not a hidden gem
Not cheap
Nowhere near St Andrews.

Great post otherwise like
		
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Strange reply. 

I appreciate my post wasnt about the price rise at the OC but many are banging on about the high prices at some clubs and not just about the OC. 

Who mentioned anything about a hidden gem?

£30 is cheep 

Loads of courses have been mentioned doesn’t just have to be about the OC. 

Was just trying to do someone a favor and help a good cause. 

2 time wasters not helping don’t think I’ll bother again.


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## Banchory Buddha (May 22, 2022)

Rlburnside said:



			Strange reply.

I appreciate my post wasnt about the price rise at the OC but many are banging on about the high prices at some clubs and not just about the OC.

*Who mentioned anything about a hidden gem?*

£30 is cheep

Loads of courses have been mentioned doesn’t just have to be about the OC.

Was just trying to do someone a favor and help a good cause.

2 time wasters not helping don’t think I’ll bother again.
		
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Well the post you were replying to (below) did. Yes £30 is cheap, £145 isn't though. 



Skytot said:



			Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses
		
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## Rlburnside (May 22, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Well the post you were replying to (below) did. Yes £30 is cheap, £145 isn't though.
		
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I never even read that post and wasn’t replying to anyone, I just looked at the last page and put my post on.


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## milngavie_hacker (May 22, 2022)

Skytot said:



			Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses
		
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As someone else said there is little cheap, especially if you want to play links but there are some decent options. We have a caravan in Crail and these are the courses I tend slot in when fancy a round:

Crail Balmomie - At high season it’s £120 green fee so not cheap but often do twilight deals for four balls and the like which are excellent.

Anstruther - some of the best value golf in the area. 9 holes of links with some quirks but played along the coast and with a green fee of £20ish is the bargain of the region in my view.

St Michaels - not played it but will later this summer. Looks a nice parkland and green fee around £25.

Cupar Golf Club - The Elmwood in Cupar is a pleasant nine hole and about £15 green fee.

Charleton Golf Club - not played it yet but popped into see it when driving back the other weekend. Parkland course sitting on the hills above the new Dumbarnie link course. Opening holes look Ok and some stunning views of the sea. Green fee about £40 I think.

Dumbarnie - looks awesome and a great challenge but green fee likely to be around £120 based on last time I checked.


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## Jimaroid (May 22, 2022)

milngavie_hacker said:



			Charleton Golf Club - not played it yet but popped into see it when driving back the other weekend. Parkland course sitting on the hills above the new Dalbarnie link course. Opening holes look Ok and some stunning views of the sea. Green fee about £40 I think.

Dalbarnie - looks awesome and a great challenge but green fee likely to be around £120 based on last time I checked.
		
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Don’t you mean Dumbarnie? People won’t get those prices unless they’re a Fife or Scottish resident.

Charleton is a nice little members club, the quality of the greens there is usually great.


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## KenL (May 22, 2022)

Not sure of the fee but Downfield in Dundee is really good.
Dumbarnie is closed just now as it is in poor condition.
Might be a while before it is worth what they charge for it!


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## milngavie_hacker (May 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Don’t you mean Dumbarnie? People won’t get those prices unless they’re a Fife or Scottish resident.

Charleton is a nice little members club, the quality of the greens there is usually great.
		
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I did indeed and constantly misname it for some reason. And your right £120 is rate for a Scottish citizens which is why it stuck in my head. 

Apologies for sharing link to a competitor site but some excellent value here 
covering Fife, Perth and Angus.   

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golfbrea...0515_sgs)&mc_cid=c0f4338963&mc_eid=9bd5fa1550


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## pendodave (May 22, 2022)

Skytot said:



			Could anyone suggest any hidden gems course around St Andrews that are cheap and can offset the expensive of TOC ?
Thanks for your responses
		
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The eden course is reasonable.
We got a decent price at ladybank for a 4ball - they often have deals, and it's a nice change from links.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2022)

We played Burntisland on the way up to St Andrews. Nice course, great views, it's on your way if you are crossing the Forth Road Bridge. Visitors green fee is £30.


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