# The Real Problem with the NHS



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2015)

The real problem with the NHS is us.  

These days - and I believe it is a fairly recent thing - too many of us have an overblown sense of entitlement, and expectations way exceeding what the NHS could ever deliver.  Too many of us are all too ready to complain from the word go; show very little appreciation and gratitude towards all those working hard to do the very best for us; are unwilling to accept it's not all about them and that they are but one patient and maybe not the most deserving of priority.  And at the end of it all too many readily decide that they have been hard done by, or have not got the response or respect that they deserve - and so with feelings of massive injustice and resentment raise complaints against the professional or professionals who they have been treated or supported by.  As a result NHS staff are feeling battered, demoralised, and completely worn out.  And that's why so many experienced NHS professionals are saying - I'm out.  And so the cycle that will bring the NHS to it's knees goes on.  

And it will be us - the public - who will have made that come to pass.

Just a thought.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 15, 2015)

On the other hand , aren't advances in medical science to blame, I mean if we didn't have antibiotics, anti cancer drugs, new surgical proceedures then the Grim Reaper would visit these shores more often and our individual medical expectations would therefore be lower than they are .

As it is we have a potentially first class health service, which is making advances all the time, so why shouldn't these advances be used for the benefit of the general population .
The nhs is suffering from too many management posts, expensive drug bills and staff shortages leading to a reliance on expensive "bank staff".

More resources need to be put into local care for the elderly and mental health departments, so that people can be discharged from hospital once the acute part of their treatment is sorted, this will filter down and help the A&E departments.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 15, 2015)

Interesting, but no got to disagree with a lot of what you say.

left a post on a recent NHS topic in which Missis Tash was well and truly shafted by people within the NHS. none of that was addressed in your post and listening to my beloved, a lot of battered Nurses are battered from within the system.

listening to my wife a lot of what is wrong with the NHS can be put right by Nurses and doctors who work within the system and know where the problems lie. Why are they not asked or listened to.

another problem is that. Missis Tash is adamant that there are career patients. = costly.

One thing I will disagree with you on is that Tashyboy is quick to moan and why not. But I am twice as quick to pat people on the back for a job well done.

in Missis Tashyboys job as Urology outreach, she has met people from all walks of life, some salt of the earth. Others well, the bloke that twated Missis Tash the other week falls into that category.

there are a lot of things wrong with the NHS, but I think a lot of what you say Mr Swings are not the real problems with the NHS but with individual planks using the NHS.

looking forward to an opinionated topic.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 15, 2015)

Missis Tash was finished as a bank nurse coordinator at the local hospital. She was involved in training, hiring and firing. She loved her job. They covered jobs through the bank for any nurses and care assistants etc that were off through holidays or sicknes, long and short term. They covered over 95% of available shifts every week.
her job was made redundant to save Â£35-40K.
(as it happened it was the best thing that happened to her) However that's not the point. The local newspaper is reporting that the same hospital is having a recruitment drive looking for 140 nurses (locally) because it cannot afford to keep paying Â£400K per month to agency's supplying Nurses, care assistants etc etc.
Stinks to high heaven is an understatement. The same middle management clowns that disposed of Missis Tashyboys job promise to support the new highly skilled nurses that will start. Flippin Hypocrits. 
Off to work now ranting.

from a thread earlier today I posted.

As posted by phil the fragger post no2
The nhs is suffering from too many management posts, expensive drug bills and staff shortages leading to a reliance on expensive "bank staff".

BOOM.


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## Odvan (Apr 15, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The real problem with the NHS is us.  

These days - and I believe it is a fairly recent thing - too many of us have an overblown sense of entitlement, and expectations way exceeding what the NHS could ever deliver.  Too many of us are all too ready to complain from the word go; show very little appreciation and gratitude towards all those working hard to do the very best for us; are unwilling to accept it's not all about them and that they are but one patient and maybe not the most deserving of priority.  And at the end of it all too many readily decide that they have been hard done by, or have not got the response or respect that they deserve - and so with feelings of massive injustice and resentment raise complaints against the professional or professionals who they have been treated or supported by.  As a result NHS staff are feeling battered, demoralised, and completely worn out.  And that's why so many experienced NHS professionals are saying - I'm out.  And so the cycle that will bring the NHS to it's knees goes on.  

And it will be us - the public - who will have made that come to pass.

Just a thought.
		
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Disagree entirely SILH. The staff want 'out' due to stresses placed upon them by management, which come from their respective Trusts, which comes from Government directives. At the same time, funding has decreased or is being syphoned off into private deals and not to the 'shop floor' where it belongs.

As it stands, right now, tonight  I have examples from both patient and staff aspects and it's frightening to know what really happens if you're not in 'the know', something that was mentioned in the other thread.

Like a few posters on here, I could write chapter and verse on this but won't. Ive actually encouraged my missus to start writing a diary on some of the stuff she gets asked to do, I promise ya, it would make for a best seller (that's why I asked her to do it ).

Only recently she has started to revert to email after my encouragement in response to requests she's had 'over the phone' as they've quite simply been career threatening actions that she's been asked to do and it's all to do with ticking boxes, A&E being off target and needing beds in hospitals that don't have beds, or the relevant number of staff to serve those beds. 

Why does my missus want out - being the only qualified nurse on a ward with 20 patients that all need the same level of care. One has a massive internal bleed, a condition whereby you simply swallow all your own fluids but it goes straight to your lungs, it's incurable, save the life, it'll happen again. It happens - everyone paged, they save the life but guess what, the trauma team simply goes off to the next job. Meanwhile, one nurse is left with this patient and 19 others. The one patient now needs round the clock monitoring and one-to-one care but the other 19 all need their bloods doin, meds given, drips changed, bags changed, sheets changed etc etc. The nurse asks for help up above, does it come....what do you think?

Question, which one of the twenty would you like you nearest and dearest to be? The one that's really, really sick to ensure they get care, or one of the other 19 that are now getting ignored that are really sick, just not as sick as the other?

That's what pisses the REAL nursing staff off and that's why they all want out.

You are right in the fact that we all have an expectation to be dealt with well and lots of people aren't, they don't know it sometimes, but they aren't. But it isn't the fault of those people wanting out, it's the fault of those above, one rung or more. It's a business now and the real carers don't get that, it really fustrates them, they just want the facilities to provide and care for. Those above have no choice but to meet unrealistic targets set against reduced budgets whilst at the same time not realising that they should be making their own positions redundant to save money.

Perhaps I've wrote chapter and verse after all, perhaps I believe that front line NHS staff are  national heroes. Perhaps I think certain other 'proffesionals' are absolute tossers for going on strike. Perhaps I simply live with someone who comes home from work stressed to the max and hating every last minute of it for the reasons above. Sad part about it is, she loves 'nursing'. One of our angels being battered by the system.

Stuff is close to my heart at the minute so it's a rant rather than direct response but even so, anybody disrespecting front line staff are simply, simple...


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## Tashyboy (Apr 15, 2015)

Odvan said:



			Disagree entirely SILH. The staff want 'out' due to stresses placed upon them by management, which come from their respective Trusts, which comes from Government directives. At the same time, funding has decreased or is being syphoned off into private deals and not to the 'shop floor' where it belongs.

As it stands, right now, tonight  I have examples from both patient and staff aspects and it's frightening to know what really happens if you're not in 'the know', something that was mentioned in the other thread.

Like a few posters on here, I could write chapter and verse on this but won't. Ive actually encouraged my missus to start writing a diary on some of the stuff she gets asked to do, I promise ya, it would make for a best seller (that's why I asked her to do it ).

Only recently she has started to revert to email after my encouragement in response to requests she's had 'over the phone' as they've quite simply been career threatening actions that she's been asked to do and it's all to do with ticking boxes, A&E being off target and needing beds in hospitals that don't have beds, or the relevant number of staff to serve those beds. 

Why does my missus want out - being the only qualified nurse on a ward with 20 patients that all need the same level of care. One has a massive internal bleed, a condition whereby you simply swallow all your own fluids but it goes straight to your lungs, it's incurable, save the life, it'll happen again. It happens - everyone paged, they save the life but guess what, the trauma team simply goes off to the next job. Meanwhile, one nurse is left with this patient and 19 others. The one patient now needs round the clock monitoring and one-to-one care but the other 19 all need their bloods doin, meds given, drips changed, bags changed, sheets changed etc etc. The nurse asks for help up above, does it come....what do you think?

Question, which one of the twenty would you like you nearest and dearest to be? The one that's really, really sick to ensure they get care, or one of the other 19 that are now getting ignored that are really sick, just not as sick as the other?

That's what pisses the REAL nursing staff off and that's why they all want out.

You are right in the fact that we all have an expectation to be dealt with well and lots of people aren't, they don't know it sometimes, but they aren't. But it isn't the fault of those people wanting out, it's the fault of those above, one rung or more. It's a business now and the real carers don't get that, it really fustrates them, they just want the facilities to provide and care for. Those above have no choice but to meet unrealistic targets set against reduced budgets whilst at the same time not realising that they should be making their own positions redundant to save money.

Perhaps I've wrote chapter and verse after all, perhaps I believe that front line NHS staff are  national heroes. Perhaps I think certain other 'proffesionals' are absolute tossers for going on strike. Perhaps I simply live with someone who comes home from work stressed to the max and hating every last minute of it for the reasons above. Sad part about it is, she loves 'nursing'. One of our angels being battered by the system.

Stuff is close to my heart at the minute so it's a rant rather than direct response but even so, anybody disrespecting front line staff are simply, simple...
		
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And having read that lengthy post twice. There's not a single letter I can disagree with, furthermore there are a few million partners both male and female who would agree with every word you said.
 Only bit you missed out is when your beloved is late home every day due to her love of the job and love of giving to the patients.
well wrote.


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## Odvan (Apr 15, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



Missis Tash was finished as a bank nurse coordinator at the local hospital. She was involved in training, hiring and firing. She loved her job. They covered jobs through the bank for any nurses and care assistants etc that were off through holidays or sicknes, long and short term. They covered over 95% of available shifts every week.
her job was made redundant to save Â£35-40K.

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Sorry Tash, do I understand right - Mrs Tash simply did a rota and a bit of HR?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2015)

Back to the OP.   I agree that peoples expectations and feelings of entitlement are very much to blame for the overload in health services.    It's Ok for NHS staff to say they are overworked but I don't hear of many resolutions to their problems, do they suggest an open flow of funds will fix it?   Is it all the fault of the Administrators or the Government with their never ending need for targets?

I would suggest (and I understand that this will not be popular) that everything in the NHS be privatised where possible and the contracts are on fixed cost where the contractors are responsible for services and administration.   people in the UK need to understand that if they want first class services they have to pay for it and this will be as a mixture of NI for basic needs and private insurance for the extra services.

I would put it to you that the state is not capable of providing an NHS that meets peoples expectations and many peoples expectations do not meet what they are prepared to pay for it.    Cough up or put up!


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## Odvan (Apr 16, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Back to the OP.   I agree that peoples expectations and feelings of entitlement are very much to blame for the overload in health services.    *It's Ok for NHS staff to say they are overworked but I don't hear of many resolutions to their problems, do they suggest an open flow of funds will fix it?*   Is it all the fault of the Administrators or the Government with their never ending need for targets?

I would suggest (and I understand that this will not be popular) that everything in the NHS be privatised where possible and the contracts are on fixed cost where the contractors are responsible for services and administration.   people in the UK need to understand that if they want first class services they have to pay for it and this will be as a mixture of NI for basic needs and private insurance for the extra services.

I would put it to you that the state is not capable of providing an NHS that meets peoples expectations and many peoples expectations do not meet what they are prepared to pay for it.    Cough up or put up!
		
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Perhaps you should have segmented your reply but I get your point entirely and it's a valid one.

The segmentation: "NHS Staff" - that's just too broad by way of terminology, the people that can actually shape and change things, the same people that are caring for you and I were it matters, are the ones whos opinions are brushed aside, because their opinions mean more cash, regardless of the relevance. Funnily enough, they didn't have that opinion years ago because there were Matrons, Sisters and 4/5 nurses to a ward and that's 'how it rolled'. To be fair, it's the same in any corparate business anywhere now - lots of suits believe they know better about the 'business' than those who know the 'system'. Employ em for 200k and they'll save you, erm, 200k....

Privatised or not, more money, by someone, would have to be spent to ensure the level of care we expect is given because quite frankly the shortfall is massive but I'm trying to keep the politics away from this, but it's difficult!

Interestingly, my missus has the opinion that we as a nation are extremely fortunate regardless of the current state of the service and whilst in an ideal world it remain a free service is an advocate of the American way, but then that's mixing up politics and social elements into it. Ultimately, she trained because it's something she wanted to do and patient care for her is paramount, it's just who she is. No doubt like many others. She has offered many resolutions to various problems inflicted by whatever restraints they are shackled by, sadly they fall on willing deaf ears by 'NHS' (loosely termed) staff that don't belong in the same segment as those there, serving the right purpose.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2015)

Odvan said:



			Perhaps you should have segmented your reply but I get your point entirely and it's a valid one.

The segmentation: "NHS Staff" - that's just too broad by way of terminology, the people that can actually shape and change things, the same people that are caring for you and I were it matters, are the ones whos opinions are brushed aside, because their opinions mean more cash, regardless of the relevance. Funnily enough, they didn't have that opinion years ago because there were Matrons, Sisters and 4/5 nurses to a ward and that's 'how it rolled'. To be fair, it's the same in any corparate business anywhere now - lots of suits believe they know better about the 'business' than those who know the 'system'. Employ em for 200k and they'll save you, erm, 200k....

Privatised or not, more money, by someone, would have to be spent to ensure the level of care we expect is given because quite frankly the shortfall is massive but I'm trying to keep the politics away from this, but it's difficult!

Interestingly, my missus has the opinion that we as a nation are extremely fortunate regardless of the current state of the service and *whilst in an ideal world it remain a free service* is an advocate of the American way, but then that's mixing up politics and social elements into it. Ultimately, she trained because it's something she wanted to do and patient care for her is paramount, it's just who she is. No doubt like many others. She has offered many resolutions to various problems inflicted by whatever restraints they are shackled by, sadly they fall on willing deaf ears by 'NHS' (loosely termed) staff that don't belong in the same segment as those there, serving the right purpose.
		
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There is no such thing as a free meal.   The service may be free at the point of delivery but it is payed for by the tax payer.   There is no such thing as Government funds, only tax payers funds.


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## palindromicbob (Apr 16, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			another problem is that. Missis Tash is adamant that there are career patients. = costly.
		
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Totally agree with that.  I know of several that have cost hundreds of thousands to the NHS trust without having any major medical treatment. Simply abusive of the service.


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## Odvan (Apr 16, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no such thing as a free meal.   The service may be free at the point of delivery but it is payed for by the tax payer.   There is no such thing as Government funds, only tax payers funds.
		
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Check out the big brains on bread!

Thanks, had you not mentioned it, I'd have never realised the majority of us pay taxes toward the service. I might vote now.

As I said, in *an ideal world *it would be free, completely. Please refer to the more realistic and perhaps un-UK view of the American way being right and proper. A separate debate entirely from the OP.

Highlighting 10 words to attempt to make a point from all the above without even completing the sentence is on a par with a Daily Sport journo.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 16, 2015)

Odvan said:



			Sorry Tash, do I understand right - Mrs Tash simply did a rota and a bit of HR?
		
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No Odvan, by trade she is a nurse, who's main trait was surgical and Gynaecology/Urology her position was made redundant when a ward was closed due to"savings" and the only job available was bank nurse coordinator. Part of which involved hiring and firing, training and assessing on wards. The HR side was done by three office girls.
She hired dozens of people who have since gone on to become full time employees as care assistants and a few of them have gone on to become nurses. She has also been threatened with solicitors because she would not employ people who could not speak English and called "Rascist" because of it.


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## Ethan (Apr 16, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			listening to my wife a lot of what is wrong with the NHS can be put right by Nurses and doctors who work within the system and know where the problems lie. Why are they not asked or listened to.

another problem is that. Missis Tash is adamant that there are career patients. = costly.
		
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And of course Mrs Tash is quite right, the NHS has plenty of money coming into it and excellent staff, but much of the money is wasted before it gets to patients, and the staff are treated in an appealing manner. 

The sad reality is that for some of the politicians, the NHS is not a way of delivering good quality healthcare to the population in an efficient manner, but is a vehicle for ideological or self-serving initiatives, currently mainly involving wholesale transfer of parts of it to the private sector.

I trained as a doctor in the NHS but now work in R&D in the pharmaceutical industry, helping develop new medicines. I look at the NHS now from a private sector perspective. The private sector has no magic dust that automatically instills greater efficiency. It only creates efficiency by cutting staffing and skill levels down to what they can get away with, and this is exactly what happens whenever one of these private hospitals tales over some NHS facility, and usually the pie is fattened for them first too. 

But the private sector (alt least the part I am in) treated its employees well, with decent salary, nice working conditions and some benefits. The NHS reneges on pay agreements, charges people to park at work and it is no wonder so many are leaving. The reliance on bank staff is wrong. The NHS needs well motivated permanent staff who can work in a family friendly way. Instead morale is at an all time low and goodwill (which was an essential part of the mix) has evaporated for many. 

And there are certainly career patients, some of whom consume massive amounts of resources. There always were and always will be, but that is the way it goes in a universal healthcare system free at the point of (ab)use.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2015)

My post was intended to generate debate - I fully recognise there are many other issues with the NHS

But it was prompted by a call by a trainee GP to a phone in yesterday evening - backed up by my wife (a breast cancer nurse specialist) - in which he stated consultant friends of his working in the NHS  and privately find that private patients are generally grateful and pleasant whilst the same could only be said for one in five NHS patients.

My wife does feel pressures from management but they are nothing compared with the stress, hassle and upset caused by her patients and unfortunately her NHS patients are the worst - and she thinks it is the feeling of entitlement they have - something that politicians seem to reinforce


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## Crazyface (Apr 16, 2015)

It's like anything that you buy / pay for yourself, you take greater care of it. 

Also, one of the biggest complaints people have about NHS staff is that you can usually see a mass of them gathered around the desk in the ward chatting away. Casualty (TV show) shows this every week. It does not look good. If you have to chat, and sure we all like to do this, but for Gods sake do it away from where the public can see you !!!!!!

PS
Last year wifey had the most incredible treatment from NHS staff I have ever witnessed. Just to let you know that if you are ever admitted to Salford Royal Hospital, you will be having THE BEST care of anywhere. 
They also do not hang around the desks there!!!!!!


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## Odvan (Apr 16, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			No Odvan, by trade she is a nurse, who's main trait was surgical and Gynaecology/Urology her position was made redundant when a ward was closed due to"savings" and the only job available was bank nurse coordinator. Part of which involved hiring and firing, training and assessing on wards. The HR side was done by three office girls.
She hired dozens of people who have since gone on to become full time employees as care assistants and a few of them have gone on to become nurses. She has also been threatened with solicitors because she would not employ people who could not speak English and called "Rascist" because of it.
		
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That sounds, so, so familiar, particularly the latter. The crap nurses who, let's say, don't speak the Queens too well, who also generally break the codes of practise often, due to incompetence, you could say, are getting away with murder! But the auxiliarys are just as bad!


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## Odvan (Apr 16, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			It's like anything that you buy / pay for yourself, you take greater care of it. 

Also, one of the biggest complaints people have about NHS staff is that you can usually see a mass of them gathered around the desk in the ward chatting away. Casualty (TV show) shows this every week. It does not look good. If you have to chat, and sure we all like to do this, but for Gods sake do it away from where the public can see you !!!!!!

PS
Last year wifey had the most incredible treatment from NHS staff I have ever witnessed. Just to let you know that if you are ever admitted to Salford Royal Hospital, you will be having THE BEST care of anywhere. 
They also do not hang around the desks there!!!!!!
		
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Crazyface, that's were my missus and the family are virtually living at the moment and you're spot on, the hospital is in a different league to its near neighbours.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2015)

Odvan said:



			Check out the big brains on bread!

Thanks, had you not mentioned it, I'd have never realised the majority of us pay taxes toward the service. I might vote now.

As I said, in *an ideal world *it would be free, completely. Please refer to the more realistic and perhaps un-UK view of the American way being right and proper. A separate debate entirely from the OP.

Highlighting 10 words to attempt to make a point from all the above without even completing the sentence is on a par with a Daily Sport journo.




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Calm down dear, it's only a Golf Forum!    I would point out again the service is not free, the tax payer funds it, I get a bit fed up with people suggesting public services are free.   The NHS is only free at the point of use.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 16, 2015)

As regards patients being ungrateful, what about the time Missis Tash went to someone's house for a 1pm appointment made the week before. theres no answer at the door so Missis T rings this guy, who is full of apologies coz he got talking to his mate in the pub and didn't realise the time. Al be there in 10 mins he says. fantastic says Missis T coz you have been told a thousand times re alcohol and in 10 mins time I won't be here. See you next week in hospital.
unbelievable.


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## chrisd (Apr 16, 2015)

My mothers final couple of weeks were made unbelievably painful by incompetent staff at our local hospital, that's difficult to live with. I have paid for private medical insurance for many years and have made a fair few claims but the service has been impeccable. 

My brother has worked in the NHS Estates most of his working life, recently the management decided to make cuts and got rid of his boss who,by all accounts, was one of the best engineers in the NHS but also the only one trained to work on the generator that kicks in if there's a power cut - just imagine the consequences when surgery is being performed and the generator doesn't kick in!


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2015)

I've worked for, and as a supplier to, the NHS for 20 odd years. During that time I've also had need to sample their provision. There's fantastic and there's downright appalling. However, Chrisd's point about private healthcare and how good it is says it all. That's how good all parts of the NHS could and should be.

But how do we achieve that?

Take it out of the political arena. Agree what the NHS needs to put it right, e.g. the Â£8billion that is spoken of, and then ring fence that budget + 'x'% per annum to pay for the advances in medicine. And then set up a non-political organisation to run it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I've worked for, and as a supplier to, the NHS for 20 odd years. During that time I've also had need to sample their provision. There's fantastic and there's downright appalling. However, Chrisd's point about private healthcare and how good it is says it all. That's how good all parts of the NHS could and should be.

But how do we achieve that?

Take it out of the political arena. Agree what the NHS needs to put it right, e.g. the Â£8billion that is spoken of, and then ring fence that budget + 'x'% per annum to pay for the advances in medicine. And then set up a non-political organisation to run it.
		
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Some good points there.  The big problem is that throwing money at the NHS will not fix it, it has the capacity to swallow up infinite amounts without improving customer service.

My opinion which will not go down well with many is that we should look seriously at privatising as much of the administration and services as possible while still keeping the principle of free treatment at the point of delivery.  Rejecting this form of change out of hand is IMO is blinkered and Luddite.


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## c1973 (Apr 16, 2015)

I've only ever experienced excellent care from the NHS. I'm not saying they are without fault, but I can only comment on my own experience of the service.



Something that caught my attention the other day was a discussion on the NHS that mentioned 1 out of 3 GPs wanted to retire early. This was being held up as an indicator that all was not well with GPs working conditions so something had to be done. 

Really? 

I'm pretty sure if you surveyed a number of brickies labourers and asked them if they'd like to retire that the figure would be somewhat north of 33%............should something be done?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2015)

c1973 said:



			I've only ever experienced excellent care from the NHS. I'm not saying they are without fault, but I can only comment on my own experience of the service.



Something that caught my attention the other day was a discussion on the NHS that mentioned 1 out of 3 GPs wanted to retire early. This was being held up as an indicator that all was not well with GPs working conditions so something had to be done. 

Really? 

I'm pretty sure if you surveyed a number of brickies labourers and asked them if they'd like to retire that the figure would be somewhat north of 33%............should something be done? 

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:thup:


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## Kellfire (Apr 18, 2015)

As a low level manager in the NHS this thread is intriguing...

All I'll say! Lol.


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Some good points there.  The big problem is that throwing money at the NHS will not fix it, it has the capacity to swallow up infinite amounts without improving customer service.

My opinion which will not go down well with many is that we should look seriously at privatising as much of the administration and services as possible while still keeping the principle of free treatment at the point of delivery.  Rejecting this form of change out of hand is IMO is blinkered and Luddite.
		
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I certainly agree with the first paragraph!

However, I'm not so convinced with that the 2nd would work as is! 

It's highly likely that the simple 'privatisation' of administration would simply quantify the existing costs and add Profit and Contingency, thus sucking even more cash out of the system! There are plenty of horror stories about such deals. 

What could well work though is a move to 'along privatised lines' - where the same drive for administrative efficiency is encouraged/demanded, but where the benefits (cash to improve services) stay within the existing setup (Trust). 

Having another interface - between the publicly managed/funded clinical staff and the privately run admin staff - is also fraught with potential disasters! There would have to be so many Service Level Agreements that much of the possible benefits would be lost in managing the interface! That already appears to be the case with the entirely false (imo) concept of a Nursing Bank - I don't believe there actually is a cost saving - in fact, it costs more - simply a 'head-count' saving (as Bank Nursing staff aren't included in that figure!)!


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## Leereed (Apr 18, 2015)

Play with a lad who works for the nhs,he's some sort of consultant. Told me he on 110k a year he does a 4 day week, got Â£500 a month towards a car(top af range A5).gold plated pension. And hes on full pay for 12 months on sick with stress. So do I feel sorry for nhs staff, no I don't.like the rest of us if they don't like it get another job.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 18, 2015)

Leereed said:



			Play with a lad who works for the nhs,he's some sort of consultant. Told me he on 110k a year he does a 4 day week, got Â£500 a month towards a car(top af range A5).gold plated pension. And hes on full pay for 12 months on sick with stress. So do I feel sorry for nhs staff, no I don't.like the rest of us if they don't like it get another job.
		
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i think he could be an exeption my mates daughter is a juniour nurse get 18 k a year and is working 12 hour shift,after paying rent food etc got very little to show for it each month.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2015)

During the last NHS strike did it not come out that qualified midwifes were earning Â£39k a year ?
If true, that sounds like a decent salary to me, striking for more pay smacks of being greedy.


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## Ethan (Apr 19, 2015)

Leereed said:



			Play with a lad who works for the nhs,he's some sort of consultant. Told me he on 110k a year he does a 4 day week, got Â£500 a month towards a car(top af range A5).gold plated pension. And hes on full pay for 12 months on sick with stress. So do I feel sorry for nhs staff, no I don't.like the rest of us if they don't like it get another job.
		
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That anecdote, even if true and I doubt that it is, says nothing about typical salary levels in the NHS. It does say something about the odd fatcat consultant currently being paid megabucks to preparer parts of the NHS for sell-off. And these people are exactly the reason that the Govt are suppressing salary levels, cutting back on pension promises, charging ordinary staff for car parking at work etc etc.

I am more than happy for these guys like your Audi driving Â£11ok a year mate to be kicked to of the NHS pronto, and the more the merrier.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			During the last NHS strike did it not come out that qualified midwifes were earning Â£39k a year ?
If true, that sounds like a decent salary to me, striking for more pay smacks of being greedy.
		
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i earn more than that,and i dont have the stress and the life of another 2 people in my hands,plus i dont work unsocial hours and i have 3 days off per week.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 19, 2015)

Newly qualified band 5 midwives start around Â£21,600 and once they move to band 6, Â£39k is almost the top and only payable after many annual increments during which time they will have been involved in many life and death cases and been present at hundreds of births. I think you have to use a real sense of judgement before being so quick to call them greedy. I would say for those coming straight out of uni, probably with inevitable debt and then trying to live on cÂ£22k including having to pay for somewhere to live isn't perhaps as easy as some are suggesting. Same applies to band 5 nurses too


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Newly qualified band 5 midwives start around Â£21,600 and once they move to band 6, Â£39k is almost the top and only payable after many annual increments during which time they will have been involved in many life and death cases and been present at hundreds of births. I think you have to use a real sense of judgement before being so quick to call them greedy. I would say for those coming straight out of uni, probably with inevitable debt and then trying to live on cÂ£22k including having to pay for somewhere to live isn't perhaps as easy as some are suggesting. Same applies to band 5 nurses too
		
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Great to see someone posting facts, rather than rumours or political spin. Definitely one group of workers that deserve to be well paid.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			i think he could be an exeption my mates daughter is a juniour nurse get 18 k a year and is working 12 hour shift,after paying rent food etc got very little to show for it each month.
		
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Nurses start on more than that and their salaries tend to increase by grades and provide a very competitive wage.  There are also payments for unsocial hours and an excellent pension scheme.   She could do a lot worse.

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/adult_nurse_salary.htm


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 19, 2015)

Those agenda for change rates are slightly out of date and band 5 starts at Â£21,697 (off to the top of my head but not far off) effective 1st April


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Nurses start on more than that and their salaries tend to increase by grades and provide a very competitive wage.  There are also payments for unsocial hours and an excellent pension scheme.   She could do a lot worse.

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/adult_nurse_salary.htm

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-Labour-demand-inquiry-Mail-revelations.html


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-Labour-demand-inquiry-Mail-revelations.html

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If you quote me and post something like that then it would be best if you explained the relevance of your point!    I don't condone those salaries given to NHS executives but thats nothing to do with my previous post.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Those agenda for change rates are slightly out of date and band 5 starts at Â£21,697 (off to the top of my head but not far off) effective 1st April
		
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But not the Â£18K previously quoted.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			But not the Â£18K previously quoted.
		
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The pay grade that HJS posted above is for a graduate Nurse entering at Band 5. There are several grades of Nurse below that who start out earning substantially less (I believe as low as Â£15k)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 20, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			If you quote me and post something like that then it would be best if you explained the relevance of your point!    I don't condone those salaries given to NHS executives but thats nothing to do with my previous post.
		
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Very easy to have a dig at Nurses, incredible to justify your point by saying "she could do a lot worse" The link is the answer to the thread title, IMO


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## bobmac (Apr 20, 2015)

I had the occasion to visit my local medical centre for a possible tennis elbow. I was seen on time very polite nurse, all in all a very pleasant experience. What did amaze me was a sign on the wall next to reception......... Missed appointments for March......304


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I had the occasion to visit my local medical centre for a possible tennis elbow. I was seen on time very polite nurse, all in all a very pleasant experience. What did amaze me was a sign on the wall next to reception......... Missed appointments for March......304 

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Went to my GP last week for a diabetic review. Missed appointments = 242 for the previous month and that's just the local surgery. You can imagine how that would impact any NHS hospital and the lost time (and revenue in some cases) could have been used on a patient needing help and prepared to accept and attend


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## Crazyface (Apr 20, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Nurses start on more than that and their salaries tend to increase by grades and provide a very competitive wage.  There are also payments for unsocial hours and an excellent pension scheme.   She could do a lot worse.

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/adult_nurse_salary.htm

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So for filling out forms and being generally incompetent Â£21k a year plus add ons. Jesus H Christ !!!!! That almost double my pay!!!!!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 20, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			So for filling out forms and being generally incompetent Â£21k a year plus add ons. Jesus H Christ !!!!! That almost double my pay!!!!!
		
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Sorry, what? Are you implying that nurses just fill out forms, and are generally incompetent? Clearly if it's such an easy job, that is paid twice what you're on, you should do it. In fact, it sounds so easy that there must be loads of nurses, and no possible way there would be a shortfall of nurses and NHS staff at the moment...


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## ger147 (Apr 20, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			So for filling out forms and being generally incompetent Â£21k a year plus add ons. Jesus H Christ !!!!! That almost double my pay!!!!!
		
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You're either on less than minimum wage or work part time if that's what you earn.

If you work part-time, do you think you should earn the same as someone working more hours?


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## bluewolf (Apr 20, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			So for filling out forms and being generally incompetent Â£21k a year plus add ons. Jesus H Christ !!!!! That almost double my pay!!!!!
		
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If this comment is a taste of what your mind is capable of, then I suspect you're overpaid....


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## Tashyboy (Apr 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Went to my GP last week for a diabetic review. Missed appointments = 242 for the previous month and that's just the local surgery. You can imagine how that would impact any NHS hospital and the lost time (and revenue in some cases) could have been used on a patient needing help and prepared to accept and attend
		
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And there in lies one of the problems, missed appointment = charge um for non attendance. If they don't pay. Find another GP.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			And there in lies one of the problems, missed appointment = charge um for non attendance. If they don't pay. Find another GP.
		
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BUt free healthcare is the bedrock of the NHS philosophy and lets be realistic, most of those getting treatment are at the lower end of the social scale and so don't have the cash to pay and won't. How can you then stop them having a GP. It then makes it a pay per use service


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			BUt free healthcare is the bedrock of the NHS philosophy and lets be realistic, most of those getting treatment are at the lower end of the social scale and so don't have the cash to pay and won't. How can you then stop them having a GP. It then makes it a pay per use service
		
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It's only free at the point of delivery Homer.  The tax (NI) payer funds it  (Some people seem to think it's Government funds, which don't exist) so making a small fine would only be a contribution to the fund.   Maybe we should all pay a deposit at the GPs when we register, maybe Â£20, if you fail to attend an appointment then you lose your deposit and have to repay it.   Or something similar.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It's only free at the point of delivery Homer.  The tax (NI) payer funds it  (Some people seem to think it's Government funds, which don't exist) so making a small fine would only be a contribution to the fund.   Maybe we should all pay a deposit at the GPs when we register, maybe Â£20, if you fail to attend an appointment then you lose your deposit and have to repay it.   Or something similar.
		
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Very nice in principal but as I said, with most coming from the lower end of the social scale, they don't have the cash or the intent to pay any fine levied and it'll clog the system up trying to get this money due In the meantime if you preclude them from getting GP treatment, not even taking into account they may need services like repeat medication, they will simply trot along to A&E and use that


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Very nice in principal but as I said, with most coming from the lower end of the social scale, they don't have the cash or the intent to pay any fine levied and it'll clog the system up trying to get this money due In the meantime if you preclude them from getting GP treatment, not even taking into account they may need services like repeat medication, they will simply trot along to A&E and use that
		
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Take the Â£20 out their benefits.    All they have to do is turn up for the appointment or cancel it if they dont want to pay.   Whats the problem?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 20, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Take the Â£20 out their benefits.    All they have to do is turn up for the appointment or cancel it if they dont want to pay.   Whats the problem?
		
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So it's only people on benefits who miss appointments.
And all the admin staff to collect and chase those who don't pay, which budget is that coming from?
Another layer of non-medical staff in the NHS, exactly what it needs.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Take the Â£20 out their benefits.    All they have to do is turn up for the appointment or cancel it if they dont want to pay.   Whats the problem?
		
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But it's more admin somewhere down the line for one department or another. And no it's not just those on benefits!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So it's only people on benefits who miss appointments.
And all the admin staff to collect and chase those who don't pay, which budget is that coming from?
Another layer of non-medical staff in the NHS, exactly what it needs.
		
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Well I didn't actually suggest that but was replying to a comment from someone suggesting most were.  Try reading the thread.

I suggested a deposit paid to the surgery when you register and you lose it if you miss an appointment that you have not cancelled.   I cant see this needs a new layer of Admin staff to operate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 20, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Well I didn't actually suggest that but was replying to a comment from someone suggesting most were.  Try reading the thread.

I suggested a deposit paid to the surgery when you register and you lose it if you miss an appointment that you have not cancelled.   I cant see this needs a new layer of Admin staff to operate.
		
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I did read the thread, what Homer said was "the lower end of the social scale" it was you who interpreted it as unemployed on benefits.
So Doctors surgery's would be expected to handle cash, account for it, secure it, manage the account it's paid into etc etc and you don't see any issues with this!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I did read the thread, what Homer said was "the lower end of the social scale" it was you who interpreted it as unemployed on benefits.
So Doctors surgery's would be expected to handle cash, account for it, secure it, manage the account it's paid into etc etc and you don't see any issues with this!
		
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No I dont see problems but you are trying to find them.   A simple account with a spreadsheet logging who has a current deposit and who needs to pay one, it could be linked into the patients medical record.    I dont care if they are on benefits or not, I assumed Homer was refering to this in his post.

What you seem to be missing is that if people keep appointments or even cancel them with reasonable notice then they wont lose their deposits.   It's no good people bleating on that the large number of missed appointments are putting the NHS under strain and then saying it's not possible to do anything about it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 21, 2015)

One of the main reasons for missed appointments, in my opinion, is that it takes so long to get an appointment that often the problem has cleared up of its own accord, so there is no need to go see the doc, and people forget about the appointment.
I conclude from this that many people are making unnecessary appointments and maybe they would be better seeing the chemist instead.

we are turning into a nation of wimps and wusses

Just my opinion of course


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## StrangelyBrown (Apr 21, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			we are turning into a nation of wimps and wusses
		
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Ish... I think there's a lack of knowledge or education regarding certain things. For instance, the amount of people that think an antibiotic can cure a cold is actually quite startling.

If people used 101 or called for a phone appointment to discuss things with the duty doctor, I'm sure that the number of wasted appointments would be reduced.

And for the avoidance of doubt, I'm an assistant project manager in the NHS. So I guess that I'm one of the form filling, incompetent pencil pushers... :rollseyes:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

IMO, staff in the NHS are easy targets regardless of role, missed appointments for any reason is wrong, we need to educate people to communicate properly.
I understand this is an NHS thread but I just wish people had as much passion about fineing the bankers who caused the reccession or the tax dodgers, instead we blame the weakest and most vunerable of our society or the staff who are the front line of what is, even with the problems, the finest health care system in the world.


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## Ethan (Apr 21, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			One of the main reasons for missed appointments, in my opinion, is that it takes so long to get an appointment that often the problem has cleared up of its own accord, so there is no need to go see the doc, and people forget about the appointment.
I conclude from this that many people are making unnecessary appointments and maybe they would be better seeing the chemist instead.

we are turning into a nation of wimps and wusses

Just my opinion of course
		
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You are certainly right that people are far too readily calling the GP, pitching up to A&E or even calling an ambulance, but a lot of that is due to increased expectations fed by the Government and fostered by stuff like 111, which seems to blue light people to hospital very lightly. Triage (sorting out who is sick and who isn't) is a very difficult job to do properly, and needs to be done by a senior experienced person, not an inexperienced youth with a computer algorithm.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			You are certainly right that people are far too readily calling the GP, pitching up to A&E or even calling an ambulance, *but a lot of that is due to increased expectations fed by the Government *and fostered by stuff like 111, which seems to blue light people to hospital very lightly. Triage (sorting out who is sick and who isn't) is a very difficult job to do properly, and needs to be done by a senior experienced person, not an inexperienced youth with a computer algorithm.
		
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Which goes back to my original assertion of excessive and unrealistic feelings of entitlement and expectation in the public in respect of the NHS being a big problem for delivering services and for the moral and well-being of NHS staff.

My wife is fed up with petty whinging and $hit stirring from her NHS patients and their families and just tells them if they feel that strongly and hard done by then they know where to find the patient liaison service to register a complaint.  And she finds it instructive that her private patients are so much less so - and grateful.


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## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2015)

The problem is that in most other jobs a life isn't on the line. Whereas in hospital, it is, and people react, sometimes undeservingly, in an aggressive manner. BUT sometimes the reaction is deserving. If it's your mum, dad, sister, brother, whoever that isn't being treated in a manner that they should be, this will provoke an aggressive response from some. Should four people be sat at a desk of an evening, filling forms out, discussing patients this that the other? Maybe ONE competent admin person should be fullfilling this role and nurses should be getting on NURSING !!!!!!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which goes back to my original assertion of excessive and unrealistic feelings of entitlement and expectation in the public in respect of the NHS being a big problem for delivering services and for the moral and well-being of NHS staff.

My wife is fed up with petty whinging and $hit stirring from her NHS patients and their families and just tells them if they feel that strongly and hard done by then they know where to find the patient liaison service to register a complaint.  And she finds it instructive that her private patients are so much less so - and grateful.
		
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I've experienced both private and non-private with the same staff and noticed they are more pleasant towards you when you're there as a private patient, maybe it's because they know you'll turn up and they are under less stress as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I've experienced both private and non-private with the same staff and noticed they are more pleasant towards you when you're there as a private patient, maybe it's because they know you'll turn up and they are under less stress as well.
		
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whatever it might be - it's certainly something my OH notices.  Where entitlement is a big issue is where, for instance, a lady after a mastectomy wishes reconstructive surgery.  And for her that is the most important thing and so will complain like bu**ery if she feels her wishes and feelings are not being given the respect and priority that they deserve.  Notwithstanding the fact that the consultant surgeon she *must* haver doing this reconstruction has his or her hands full of patients with breast cancer - whose condition is life-threatening - often very imminently - and surgery is urgent.  Try telling that complaining woman that she has to wait and that frankly she is not the most important person on this planet.  Well High Doh is struck.  

And you know what - those NHS patients that whinge and shout loudest, longest and most disruptively will often get their way because the nurse specialists between the entitled patient and the consultants - well they are just worn down by them on top of everything else they are doing - dealing with woman diagnosed with cancer and often about to undergo life-saving surgery (or at least life extending).  They just want these oh so self-important and entitled women seen, off their backs and out of the way.  And to get that woman seen - the disruption and hassle that that causes.  And thanks - no thanks - plenty of complaints from them about having to complain, having to wait - how disrespectfully they were treated.

Ah the poor NHS.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			whatever it might be - it's certainly something my OH notices.  Where entitlement is a big issue is where, for instance, a lady after a mastectomy wishes reconstructive surgery.  And for her that is the most important thing and so will complain like bu**ery if she feels her wishes and feelings are not being given the respect and priority that they deserve.  Notwithstanding the fact that the consultant surgeon she *must* haver doing this reconstruction has his or her hands full of patients with breast cancer - whose condition is life-threatening - often very imminently - and surgery is urgent.  Try telling that complaining woman that she has to wait and that frankly she is not the most important person on this planet.  Well High Doh is struck.  

And you know what - those NHS patients that whinge and shout loudest, longest and most disruptively will often get their way because the nurse specialists between the entitled patient and the consultants - well they are just worn down by them on top of everything else they are doing - dealing with woman diagnosed with cancer and often about to undergo life-saving surgery (or at least life extending).  They just want these oh so self-important and entitled women seen, off their backs and out of the way.  And to get that woman seen - the disruption and hassle that that causes.  And thanks - no thanks - plenty of complaints from them about having to complain, having to wait - how disrespectfully they were treated.

Ah the poor NHS.
		
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Not decrying the Staff or the wonderful job they do, as previously stated, they are an easy target,
Apologies if my post came across wrong, what I mean is, it must be nice to be treated properly and shouldn't be because the current patient has gone private.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			IMO, staff in the NHS are easy targets regardless of role, missed appointments for any reason is wrong, we need to educate people to communicate properly.
I understand this is an NHS thread but I just wish people had as much passion about fineing the bankers who caused the reccession or the tax dodgers, instead we blame the weakest and most vunerable of our society or the staff who are the front line of what is, even with the problems, the finest health care system in the world.
		
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Oh! very original.   Maybe we need something like a Bankers Bonus tax, a ban on Non-Doms and a Mansion tax, we could even pump up the top rate of tax to 50%.   Thats the stuff to feed the troops on Christmas day!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

As a coincidence, just spent 6 hours at the RVI Hospital in Newcastle as my wife had an appointment, it was 6 hours as they were a Doctor short.
The staff were run off there feet and the complaining and moaning from people who had to put up with the other Doctors covering the shortfall and their appointment running late. 
We were informed as soon as we arrived that one of the Doctors had suffered a death in his family and they were short staffed. Watching people continually harass the nurses and aux staff because they were not happy with the delay was quite frankly embarrassing, then they had the audacity to comment on how miserable the staff were!!! Damn right they were miserable, so would I be if i was getting moaned at all day.
They might not be perfect, but hats off to anyone working at the coal face in the NHS, I wouldn't do your job.
Rant Over


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			As a coincidence, just spent 6 hours at the RVI Hospital in Newcastle as my wife had an appointment, it was 6 hours as they were a Doctor short.
The staff were run off there feet and the complaining and moaning from people who had to put up with the other Doctors covering the shortfall and their appointment running late. 
We were informed as soon as we arrived that one of the Doctors had suffered a death in his family and they were short staffed. Watching people continually harass the nurses and aux staff because they were not happy with the delay was quite frankly embarrassing, then they had the audacity to comment on how miserable the staff were!!! Damn right they were miserable, so would I be if i was getting moaned at all day.
They might not be perfect, but hats off to anyone working at the coal face in the NHS, I wouldn't do your job.
Rant Over
		
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It's the same everywhere these days.   We would be much better off without customers expecting good service.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It's the same everywhere these days.   We would be much better off without customers expecting good service.
		
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Or maybe just understanding why the service they receive is so strained. 

My wife worked in A&E for 5 years. It's a national disgrace that A&E departments now need "bouncers". My wife is just about as committed a public servant as you will find. However, after being physically and verbally assaulted on several occasions, she decided enough was enough. She now works in the community and loves her job.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Or maybe just understanding why the service they receive is so strained. 

My wife worked in A&E for 5 years. It's a national disgrace that A&E departments now need "bouncers". My wife is just about as committed a public servant as you will find. However, after being physically and verbally assaulted on several occasions, she decided enough was enough. She now works in the community and loves her job.
		
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Disgraceful your wife should have to suffer like that, should be an automatic jail sentence for anyone assaulting NHS Staff.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It's the same everywhere these days.   We would be much better off without customers expecting good service.
		
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They were getting a good service it was just taking longer than they wanted through nobody's fault,


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2015)

And you wonder why I struggle to recruit staff into A&E, midwives and in fact even HCA staff into a service where the crap they are expected to endure day in and day out is frankly intolerable. We lose so many newly qualified nurses within 12-18 months and many cite abuse and a lack of support services as the main reasons for going. Granted we are just outside of London and accept cost of living is much higher than other areas and that does play a big factor but many just don't need the crap they have to put up with day in and day out


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## Tashyboy (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It's only free at the point of delivery Homer.  The tax (NI) payer funds it  (Some people seem to think it's Government funds, which don't exist) so making a small fine would only be a contribution to the fund.   Maybe we should all pay a deposit at the GPs when we register, maybe Â£20, if you fail to attend an appointment then you lose your deposit and have to repay it.   Or something similar.
		
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Yup, that works for me, and am struggling to see why it's a problem. Â£20 to start, miss an appointment then Â£30 to register. Miss that then Â£40. They will soon Get to a stage where they won't miss an appointment.

yes Homer it is a free? Service but not one that should be readily abused.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Yup, that works for me, and am struggling to see why it's a problem. Â£20 to start, miss an appointment then Â£30 to register. Miss that then Â£40. They will soon Get to a stage where they won't miss an appointment.

yes Homer it is a free? Service but not one that should be readily abused.
		
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So I can't afford the fine, I know I'll pop along to A+E and get seen there!


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So I can't afford the fine, I know I'll pop along to A+E and get seen there!
		
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My point entirely. Plenty that won't pay either to register or any fines imposed and will simply clog A&E on a daily basis. Totally agree with you


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My point entirely. Plenty that won't pay either to register or any fines imposed and will simply clog A&E on a daily basis. Totally agree with you
		
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Homer, their fine will be losing their Â£20 deposit.

If they want to use A&E for something non urgent then charge them Â£20 (or take it from their deposit)  It's not as difficult as you guys are making out. Same should apply to the weekend drunks that block A&E.   It would make a lot of people think twice about abusing the NHS, which must be a good thing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Homer, their fine will be losing their Â£20 deposit.

If they want to use A&E for something non urgent then charge them Â£20 (or take it from their deposit)  It's not as difficult as you guys are making out. Same should apply to the weekend drunks that block A&E.   It would make a lot of people think twice about abusing the NHS, which must be a good thing.
		
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Who is going to administer all of this? Are you suggesting coughing up Â£20 on arrival at A&E to get seen. Really?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Homer, their fine will be losing their Â£20 deposit.

If they want to use A&E for something non urgent then charge them Â£20 (or take it from their deposit)  It's not as difficult as you guys are making out. Same should apply to the weekend drunks that block A&E.   It would make a lot of people think twice about abusing the NHS, which must be a good thing.
		
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Who is going to enforce the fine or registration fee, what you are suggesting is a 2 tier NHS, those with money and those without, could it also lead to back street doctors?
What about an increase in people buying black market meds?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Who is going to administer all of this? Are you suggesting coughing up Â£20 on arrival at A&E to get seen. Really?
		
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Homer I have already explained the administration ad-nausiem.   You would pay it once at your GP's for example and it would be on your computerised record.   If you turn up for an appointment or go to A&E for a valid reason then you pay nothing else.    Otherwise you lose your deposit and pay another.   It's not so complicated.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Who is going to enforce the fine or registration fee, what you are suggesting is a 2 tier NHS, those with money and those without, could it also lead to back street doctors?
What about an increase in people buying black market meds?
		
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You either don't bother reading posts or don't digest them before firing from the hip!

I have explained how simple it would be to administer the deposits and how it could be applied to those not turning up for appointments or abusing A&E.

Dont understand where you get the two tier NHS from. It would be the same for everyone.

Are you honestly saying people would rather pay back street Doctors or use back street meds rather than pay a Â£20 deposit that they would not need to pay again if they didn't abuse the NHS.   Come on now; think about it!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You either don't bother reading posts or don't digest them before firing from the hip!

I have explained how simple it would be to administer the deposits and how it could be applied to those not turning up for appointments or abusing A&E.

Dont understand where you get the two tier NHS from. It would be the same for everyone.

Are you honestly saying people would rather pay back street Doctors or use back street meds rather than pay a Â£20 deposit that they would not need to pay again if they didn't abuse the NHS.   Come on now; think about it!
		
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It's only simple in your opinion, just saying "oh it's easy and admin staff could manage" is firing from the hip, whether it is Â£2.00 or Â£20.00 it is public money and there is allsorts of rules and guidelines that go along with this. When do you pay? at birth?
You do realise the population of the UK is 64 Million, times that by Â£20.00, 
128 Million pound just sitting somewhere not really being looked after,


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			It's only simple in your opinion, just saying "oh it's easy and admin staff could manage" is firing from the hip, whether it is Â£2.00 or Â£20.00 it is public money and there is allsorts of rules and guidelines that go along with this. When do you pay? at birth?
You do realise the population of the UK is 64 Million, times that by Â£20.00, 
128 Million pound just sitting somewhere not really being looked after,
		
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So you don't read the posts before shooting from the hip.   Again!   You pay the deposit when you register and it could well be only when you are an adult.

It is easy but you don't want to understand that.

As it would only be for adults it would be somewhat less than Â£128 Mil.   Why are you concerned with what the fund would be used for?    I would make a suggestion that as it's non returnable it could go into employing some more NHS staff.

Things can be improved, it takes a will to do it though.  Are you content with the current levels of missed appointments and   abuse of A&E services?   If you are, then all is well in your world, if not then what do you consider we could do to improve things?

This may be of some help to you!

You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
But don't mess with mister inbetween


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			So you don't read the posts before shooting from the hip.   Again!   You pay the deposit when you register and it could well be only when you are an adult.

It is easy but you don't want to understand that.

As it would only be for adults it would be somewhat less than Â£128 Mil.   Why are you concerned with what the fund would be used for?    I would make a suggestion that as it's non returnable it could go into employing some more NHS staff.

Things can be improved, it takes a will to do it though.  Are you content with the current levels of missed appointments and   abuse of A&E services?   If you are, then all is well in your world, if not then what do you consider we could do to improve things?

This may be of some help to you!

You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
But don't mess with mister inbetween
		
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Song lyrics......sums your argument up!
Nobody has said do nothing, everyone agrees something needs to be done, but simply putting another underhand tax on the problem solves nothing.
Depending on what source you read/trust the figure for missed appointments is between 5-15% therefore 85-95% are attended, so lets levy the 85%!
Maybe it's time to employ more Doctors and invest properly in the NHS, one thing all parties agree is needed, and rather then people wouldn't be waiting weeks and months for appts.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I had the occasion to visit my local medical centre for a possible tennis elbow. I was seen on time very polite nurse, all in all a very pleasant experience. What did amaze me was a sign on the wall next to reception.........* Missed appointments for March......304 *

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HomerJSimpson said:



			Went to my GP last week for a diabetic review. Missed appointments = *242 for the previous month *and that's just the local surgery. You can imagine how that would impact any NHS hospital and the lost time (and revenue in some cases) could have been used on a patient needing help and prepared to accept and attend
		
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pauldj42 said:



			Song lyrics......sums your argument up!
Nobody has said do nothing, everyone agrees something needs to be done, but simply putting another underhand tax on the problem solves nothing.
Depending on what source you read/trust the figure for missed appointments is between 5-15% therefore 85-95% are attended, so lets levy the 85%!
Maybe it's time to employ more Doctors and invest properly in the NHS, one thing all parties agree is needed, and rather then people wouldn't be waiting weeks and months for appts.
		
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If you think the problem is insignificant then the above numbers seem to show a different trend.   Forget percentages, if this number of people are missing appointments then it's a real problem.

Regarding throwing money at the problem as you are suggesting then where do you think that will come from then.   Come on then tell me all about Bankers Bonuses, Tax Dodgers and Mansion tax


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2015)

Picked up OH from work yesterday and gave her boss a lift home.  And what was the topic of their discussion in the car.  Some NHS woman has complained about delays between the different stages of her treatment and management (which she is now through with for the time being) - the 'delays' actually being the normal periods in the NHS between the stages of her being seen and treated.  Oh yes - also complaining about the way she was told that she had breast cancer.  So how was she told? The consultant told her straight out at their first consultation following the investigation that she has breast cancer.  Yup - she thought this was too 'abrupt' and insensitive.  And as a result my OH and her boss have spent hours over the last two days looking back in their notes and responding to the complaint and as a result have fallen behind in their management of other new patients.  And if these patients get upset...and so it goes on.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			If you think the problem is insignificant then the above numbers seem to show a different trend.   Forget percentages, if this number of people are missing appointments then it's a real problem.

Regarding throwing money at the problem as you are suggesting then where do you think that will come from then.   Come on then tell me all about Bankers Bonuses, Tax Dodgers and Mansion tax 

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How can you quote a trend from 1 months figures! It coukd be half the previous months and be improving!
Didn't suggest throwing money at it, said correctly funded, why does everything come down to political allegiance, regardless of being Labour or Tory, it should be looked after and not something else privatised to make a profit, why can't it be run correctly, staffed correctly and make a profit for the treasurey?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			How can you quote a trend from 1 months figures! It coukd be half the previous months and be improving!
Didn't suggest throwing money at it, said correctly funded, why does everything come down to political allegiance, regardless of being Labour or Tory, it should be looked after and not something else privatised to make a profit, why can't it be run correctly, staffed correctly and make a profit for the treasurey?
		
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It's not a short term or temporary thing. last year 2 million GP appointments were missed and thats not taking account of Hospital day appointments.     It's not realistic to make a comment that as a percentage of the UK population thats not a lot. The whole population are not going to hospital or the Doctors.

Read this:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2014/03/05/missed-appts/

I fail to see why you have now brought privatisation into the subject and cant understand your last comment, does it have something to do with the subject we have been discussing or have you just thrown in a red-herring?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 22, 2015)

I think we should agree to dissgree, hopefully play a round together and share a pint afterwards&#128540;


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## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I think we should agree to dissgree, hopefully play a round together and share a pint afterwards&#128540;
		
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I think you're right, we've probably exhausted the subject from our own perspectives.   Hope we can do that sometime :cheers:


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 23, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I think we should agree to dissgree, hopefully play a round together and share a pint afterwards&#128540;
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I think you're right, we've probably exhausted the subject from our own perspectives.   Hope we can do that sometime :cheers:
		
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Praise the Lord, I was losing the will to live and that would be costly to the NHS 
More folk need to agree to disagree:thup:


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## bobmac (Apr 23, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			More folk need to agree to disagree:thup:
		
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Don't hold your breath


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## Fish (Apr 23, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Praise the Lord, I was losing the will to live and that would be costly to the NHS 
More folk need to agree to disagree:thup:
		
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I disagree to agree to disagree but I agree that agreeing to disagree is an agreement compromise to agree to disagree, do you agree 

:smirk:


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## bobmac (Apr 23, 2015)

Fish said:



			I disagree to agree to disagree but I agree that agreeing to disagree is an agreement compromise to agree to disagree, do you agree 

:smirk:
		
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Yes..................and no


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 23, 2015)

Fish said:



			I disagree to agree to disagree but I agree that agreeing to disagree is an agreement compromise to agree to disagree, do you agree 

:smirk:
		
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I hope your thumb gets better soon - looks liek you are going mad with cabin fever


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## Kellfire (Apr 23, 2015)

For a start, 64 million times Â£20 is not Â£128m, it's Â£1.28 billion...

And I totally agree with some form of minimal charge for GP registration and missed appointments.

The system would be easily adapted from the one used by dentists... There is precedent and a system ready to be copied over. 

But with dentists, those on some benefits get free dental care, so if you adapted that system you may well exempt the main group of people who DNA...


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## StrangelyBrown (Apr 23, 2015)

Kellfire said:



			The system would be easily adapted from the one used by dentists... There is precedent and a system ready to be copied over.
		
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I don't think that this is a good idea. Principally because I've been phoned by my dentist's secretary recently who said "Mr Cxxxxx doesn't have any time to see you as an NHS patient due to his teaching role at the university, however, if you sign up to DenPlan I'm sure he'll be able to fit you in".

So he can see me if I go private, but not if I'm NHS. 

Seriously, this is the way things will go.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2015)

Kellfire said:



			For a start, 64 million times Â£20 is not Â£128m, it's Â£1.28 billion...

And I totally agree with some form of minimal charge for GP registration and missed appointments.

The system would be easily adapted from the one used by dentists... There is precedent and a system ready to be copied over. 

But with dentists, those on some benefits get free dental care, so if you adapted that system you may well exempt the main group of people who DNA...
		
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Well spotted on the maths, can someone show me the facts were it states that the worst offenders for DNA are people on benefits, especially as Doctors/Hospitals etc only give out numbers and nothing else, or are we once again blaming the easy target?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Well spotted on the maths, can someone show me the facts were it states that the worst offenders for DNA are people on benefits, especially as Doctors/Hospitals etc only give out numbers and nothing else, or are we once again blaming the easy target?
		
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View attachment 15095


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 15095

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Only with you &#128540;


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## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Only with you &#128540;
		
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   ....


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