# Course and slope rating - anybody know the easier and harder courses in the UK?



## Sports_Fanatic (Oct 22, 2020)

I'm guessing there is probably a website but interest to know which courses they've played or in their area they would consider the easier and harder courses and whether the ratings tie up of yellow and whites?

Quite intrigued that WHS may mean from a low to mid teen handicap I could get two shots on a hole or two at a difficult course and yet play to single figures maybe at an easy course. Will really change the mindset i expect when you tee off as you probably just think of normal handicap when playing now. I know SSS is always there but I've got to admit it's rare i check that or align expectations to it at the start.


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## DRW (Oct 22, 2020)

When I look before, the lowest one I could find that I had played was Painswick Golf Club, off yellow slope rating was 105 and 110 whites.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2020)

Highest i believe is Hoylake - 152


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## jim8flog (Oct 22, 2020)

I do not know about across the country.

Our 9 hole is 109 if you are only playing 9 off the yellow tees.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Oct 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Highest i believe is Hoylake - 152
		
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I'd gain 7 shots (10 more than current handicap) moving back from yellows to championship tees there for a course playing 779 yards longer. If clubs let you, i wonder whether you'd make a strategic decision to play it harder - I guess some though carries but likewise i'd have an extra shot to play with on a number of par 4s which you'd potentially be hitting in with a short iron for 3rd rather than mid-long iron for 2nd.


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## KenL (Oct 22, 2020)

In Scotland I saw a list that showed Southerness as the hardest.  It is certainly  the hardest (& one of the best) I have played.  Harder than Carnoustie where it is the end that makes it so hard.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 22, 2020)

KenL said:



			In Scotland I saw a list that showed Southerness as the hardest.  It is certainly  the hardest (& one of the best) I have played.  Harder than Carnoustie where it is the end that makes it so hard.
		
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I have seen the slope listed at 131 off the white and 133 blue.

However my 4.7 index would see me playing off 9 at Southerness according to the calculator so now confused.

I agree that it is one tough course but no more difficult than my own so I can't see why I would get a few extra shots?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 22, 2020)

Ellesborough is 135 off the yellows, 138 off the whites 😎


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 22, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The slope is not a simple measure of the difficulty.
		
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Ok I'm with you up to here. Using the Southerness example above and compare to my course Silloth on Solway.

If we use Silloth blue tees and Southerness white tees since the yardages are with 50 yards and the course rating is identical at 72.6.

Silloth slope is 136 and Southerness slope is 131. I would be playing off 6 at Silloth and 9 at Southerness


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2020)

...you've forgotten about the 50 pages of algorithms!  That's why


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 22, 2020)

IanM said:



			...you've forgotten about the 50 pages of algorithms!  That's why
		
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Very true, and cocked up on page 1 more than likely


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## Gowferdee (Oct 22, 2020)

i saw a tweet saying Carnoustie is the toughest in scotland


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2020)

Although not UK, but I played Ko'Olau in Hawaii in 2000.  It had the highest slope in America at that time.  Showing online now as slope of 153.  It was nutty-tough, especially with rented clubs!   What is highest in UK?

I can sleep at night thinking that "as near as dam it" slope index is indicative of difficulty..... in the same way as when dear old Phil shouted at Rolls of Monmouth on Tuesday, "has it gone in the hazard?" I just said yes... I could have (according to some) been justified in beating him to death with my putter for not saying "penalty area!"


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## patricks148 (Oct 22, 2020)

Gowferdee said:



			i saw a tweet saying Carnoustie is the toughest in scotland
		
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i thinks Trump Aberdeen off the back is the toughest, at 77.4 and 149


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Ok I'm with you up to here. Using the Southerness example above and compare to my course Silloth on Solway.

If we use Silloth blue tees and Southerness white tees since the yardages are with 50 yards and the course rating is identical at 72.6.

Silloth slope is 136 and Southerness slope is 131. I would be playing off 6 at Silloth and 9 at Southerness 

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Slope Ratings indicate the “measurement of the *relative* playing difficulty of a course and tees for players who are not scratch golfers, compared to scratch golfers”.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Slope Ratings indicate the “measurement of the *relative* playing difficulty of a course and tees for players who are not scratch golfers, compared to scratch golfers”.
		
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Yes, so why am I receiving 3 shots more on a course with a lower slope rating where the course rating is exactly the same?

Obviously I am not a scratch golfer.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Yes, so why am I receiving 3 shots more on a course with a lower slope rating where the course rating is exactly the same?

Obviously I am not a scratch golfer.
		
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For two courses with the same Course Rating but different Bogey Ratings the Slope will be different. The slope is an indication of how much more difficult it is for a non scratch player. ie the difference between CR and BR
CR is the score a scratch player would get. BR is the score a 20-24 capper would score.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			For two courses with the same Course Rating but different Bogey Ratings the Slope will be different. The slope is an indication of how much more difficult it is for a non scratch player. ie the difference between CR and BR
CR is the score a scratch player would get. BR is the score a 20-24 capper would score.
		
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Again the bogey rating is slightly higher at Silloth.

I understand what you are saying but the the course handicap calculator keeps saying I would get an extra 3 shots. It makes absolutely no sense.


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2020)

saving_par said:



			It makes absolutely no sense.
		
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indeed it doesn’t. The explanation might be factually correct, but didnt address the anomaly.

Looking forward to some really daft scores winning stuff next season... it may sort itself out, but I fear for Handicap comps for the immediate term.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 22, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Again the bogey rating is slightly higher at Silloth.

I understand what you are saying but the the course handicap calculator keeps saying I would get an extra 3 shots. It makes absolutely no sense.
		
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Where did you find the course handicap calculator?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 22, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Where did you find the course handicap calculator?
		
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https://www.randa.org/WorldHandicapSystem


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## nyckuk (Oct 23, 2020)

Just round the corner from me ....Slope 99

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=22078


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## ExRabbit (Oct 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Again the bogey rating is slightly higher at Silloth.

I understand what you are saying but the the course handicap calculator keeps saying I would get an extra 3 shots. It makes absolutely no sense.
		
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What is your handicap index?


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## MrGrumtastic (Oct 23, 2020)

nyckuk said:



			Just round the corner from me ....Slope 99

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=22078

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That's a good find! 

As a bogey player myself (HI 19.1), I find this interesting as it shows a course that I might be able to break 80 at!

I wonder if there are any other 18hole courses with a lower bogey rating...


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

Bearwood Lakes off the whites (usual competition tee, 6480 yards) has a par and course rating of 72 and a slope of 142. That suggests it is fairly playable for the scratch golfer but proportionately harder for the bogey golfer.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 23, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			What is your handicap index?
		
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4.7


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## woofers (Oct 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Bearwood Lakes off the whites (usual competition tee, 6480 yards) has a par and course rating of 72 and a slope of 142. That suggests it is fairly playable for the scratch golfer but proportionately harder for the bogey golfer.
		
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One the highest I’ve seen.
Guess you won't be getting as many shots when playing away from there in future.
Just looked at the course that the magazines like to compare BL with, Remedy Oak, and that's 136.
Locally, nothing comes close does it? Camberley Heath 135, Berkshire 131, West Hill 126, Windlesham 133, North Hants 122


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Ok I'm with you up to here. Using the Southerness example above and compare to my course Silloth on Solway.

If we use Silloth blue tees and Southerness white tees since the yardages are with 50 yards and the course rating is identical at 72.6.

Silloth slope is 136 and Southerness slope is 131. I would be playing off 6 at Silloth and 9 at Southerness 

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The answer is that Par at Southerness is 69 (CR = 73.3, so +4 cf Par) while Silloth CR is 'only' 1 over Par. so while there's not a lot of difference in Slope between the 2, there's a large (oh look..3 strokes) difference difference in Course Rating. I'd predict that SSS difference is also about 3 shots between the 2.

Remember that Playing Handicap resolves Course Handicap to *Par, not CI*!


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Highest i believe is Hoylake - *152*

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*That's Slope*, which doesn't necessarily equate to Hardest - simply defining how much harder it is for a Bogey Player than a Scratch one!

And I believe The Hotchkin at Woodhall Spa is 155 (the max!) but can't find it on USGA site, though that's where the 155 figure came from.

So, as always, a definition of 'Hardest' is required - Slope perhaps or, more likely, greatest value of  'CR minus Par'!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			The answer is that Par at Southerness is 69 (CR = 73.3, so +4 cf Par) while Silloth CR is 'only' 1 over Par. so while there's not a lot of difference in Slope between the 2, there's a large (oh look..3 strokes) difference difference in Course Rating. I'd predict that SSS difference is also about 3 shots between the 2.

Remember that Playing Handicap resolves Course Handicap to *Par, not CI*!
		
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We have kept being told par means nothing..

Sss is the same at both at 73 and course rating is I believe exactly the same at both.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

woofers said:



			One the highest I’ve seen.
Guess you won't be getting as many shots when playing away from there in future.
Just looked at the course that the magazines like to compare BL with, Remedy Oak, and that's 136.
Locally, nothing comes close does it? Camberley Heath 135, Berkshire 131, West Hill 126, Windlesham 133, North Hants 122
		
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See my post above.

My Club is pretty similar, though in a slightly different way. While CR is Par+1 and Slope is 141. So Bogey Rating is 0.5 higher than BL.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			We have kept being told par means nothing..

Sss is the same at both at 73 and course rating is I believe exactly the same at both.
		
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And there lies 'your problem'!

Congu measures against SSS/CSS (so indeed 'Par means nothing'); WHS measures/calculates against Par - so Par is important/essential!

Checking out Rating database, at S'ness a Bogey golfer is 'expected' to score 31 over Par (cf a Scratch Golfer's 3 over) while at Silloth the scores are 24/25 (24.5) cf level Par (71.8) for a Scratch player. From that, Southerness definitely looks 'the harder' course!


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## nickjdavis (Oct 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



*That's Slope*, which doesn't necessarily equate to Hardest - simply defining how much harder it is for a Bogey Player than a Scratch one!

And I believe The Hotchkin at Woodhall Spa is 155 (the max!) *but can't find it on USGA site*, though that's where the 155 figure came from.

So, as always, a definition of 'Hardest' is required - Slope perhaps or, more likely, greatest value of  'CR minus Par'!
		
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You need to search under *The National Golf Centre* as the club name...I didnt find it when I was looking the other day until I widened my search to Lincolnshire and just scrolled down the list of clubs!!!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			And there lies 'your problem'!

Congu measures against SSS/CSS (so indeed 'Par means nothing); WHS measures against Par - so Par is important/essential!
		
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Ah, thank you.

I wish the 'experts' had stopped brain washing us on the par means nothing mantra over the previous weeks/months/years.

Going to need all of those extra shots next time I'm at Southerness 🤣

Just a pity that although its 8 miles as the crow flies from Silloth it's another 60 odd by road.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 23, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am sure you know the answer as you are using the two different means of calculation to get your Playing Handicaps at the two courses.  So what really is your point.
		
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If I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked the question, genuinely confused although hopefully Foxholer has put me right.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			You need to search under *The National Golf Centre* as the club name...I didnt find it when I was looking the other day until I widened my search to Lincolnshire and just scrolled down the list of clubs!!!
		
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Thanks - or Woodhall Spa as 'City'
And I was slightly out. Hotchkin is 151 (off Whites). It's the Back 9 that's 155!


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Ah, thank you.

I wish the 'experts' had stopped brain washing us on the par means nothing mantra over the previous weeks/months/years.
...
		
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As I posted though...Under Congu, they were correct!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			As I posted though...Under Congu, they were correct!
		
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It may have helped if they had added the caveat that par will mean something under WHS 🤔


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			It may have helped if they had added the caveat that par will mean something under WHS 🤔
		
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It's probably buried in a document somewhere!

Having experienced the USGA system during a couple of visits home to NZ, the difference is pretty opbvious.


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			14.7
		
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well done on the new handicap, i can see you back in the winners circle next year


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			well done on the new handicap, i can see you back in the winners circle next year


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Very disappointed that current form has not been taken into account like we were told 🤣


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## Scott W (Oct 23, 2020)

My home course is 135 off the whites


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

woofers said:



			One the highest I’ve seen.
Guess you won't be getting as many shots when playing away from there in future.
Just looked at the course that the magazines like to compare BL with, Remedy Oak, and that's 136.
Locally, nothing comes close does it? Camberley Heath 135, Berkshire 131, West Hill 126, Windlesham 133, North Hants 122
		
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I think the reason for the high slope at BL compared to courses that would seem similar is that there are more holes where the good player can play them easily, like the 13th, but where higher handicappers can find a lot of trouble the better player doesn't even see. For example, it is about 160 yard carry over the initial section of water. Some of the senior players won't try to carry it if the wind is against, so they lob a ball 80 yards down towards the ladies tee and play their second from there. Then there is a section of water to the right of the fairway and a shot tailing off to the right can find it. The scratch player hits a 4 iron off the tee and a wedge or blasts a driver and chips on.


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## KenL (Oct 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Ok I'm with you up to here. Using the Southerness example above and compare to my course Silloth on Solway.

If we use Silloth blue tees and Southerness white tees since the yardages are with 50 yards and the course rating is identical at 72.6.

Silloth slope is 136 and Southerness slope is 131. I would be playing off 6 at Silloth and 9 at Southerness 

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Course rating yes but how do the pars compare?


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

KenL said:



			Course rating yes but how do the pars compare?
		
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Par isn't relevant for handicapping at Silloth


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## KenL (Oct 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Par isn't relevant for handicapping at Silloth
		
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It isn't relevant anywhere, CSS is. Your point is???


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

I think he might be making the point that the difference between course rating and par is a measure of difficulty. A course with a course rating of 72 and a par of 69 is probably a more challenging course than one with course ratings and par of 72.


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## Crow (Oct 23, 2020)




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## HarrogateHacker (Oct 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



*That's Slope*, which doesn't necessarily equate to Hardest - simply defining how much harder it is for a Bogey Player than a Scratch one!

And I believe The Hotchkin at Woodhall Spa is 155 (the max!) but can't find it on USGA site, though that's where the 155 figure came from.

So, as always, a definition of 'Hardest' is required - Slope perhaps or, more likely, greatest value of  'CR minus Par'!
		
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Think the hotchkin is 151 off the whites with course rating of 74.4, the club name is something like the national golf centre, which is why it’s tricky to find


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2020)

HarrogateHacker said:



			Think the hotchkin is 151 off the whites with course rating of 74.4, the club name is something like the national golf centre, which is why it’s tricky to find
		
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See Post 37.


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 25, 2020)

At 24/85 I get 3 shots around 9 holes at the par 3.

That makes a lot of sense as 30 is generally been my target for a while and what I score if I am playing half decent. Going over 30 is a sure sign I have not played well enough.

Of my last 8 rounds there I have been over 30 just once but that jumps up to half for my last 20. My app calculated index is 15.1


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## Bigfoot (Oct 25, 2020)

Crow said:



View attachment 33060

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It had to be easy if I played one under gross on it last year and I had not seen it before.


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## Crow (Oct 25, 2020)

Bigfoot said:



			It had to be easy if I played one under gross on it last year and I had not seen it before.
		
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Nice scoring!
It's a lovely course though.


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## Bigfoot (Oct 26, 2020)

Crow said:



			Nice scoring!
It's a lovely course though.
		
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Yes - I really liked the different style - all set on a hillside.

Great tea room too!


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## Ssshank (Oct 26, 2020)

You need to be careful when looking at the course slope as a higher score doesn't always translate into a harder course.


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## DanFST (Oct 26, 2020)

No idea what it means, But the whites are only 6439 yards.


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

DanFST said:



			No idea what it means, But the whites are only 6439 yards.

View attachment 33131

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CR 71.5 is about right for a course of that length


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

DanFST said:



			No idea what it means, But the whites are only 6439 yards.

View attachment 33131

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 Length is just one part of calculating a course's difficulty


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## Ssshank (Oct 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Length is just one part of calculating a course's difficulty
		
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I'd take a long open course over a short fiddly course any day.


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## USER1999 (Oct 27, 2020)

Ssshank said:



			I'd take a long open course over a short fiddly course any day.
		
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Do you not find this incredibly one dimensional? Golf should test every aspect of your game, not just how far you can whack it.


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## Ssshank (Oct 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Do you not find this incredibly one dimensional? Golf should test every aspect of your game, not just how far you can whack it.
		
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Agreed. Though I mean in terms of difficulty I fair much better on a longer more open course.


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