# Let's discuss: Staying centered.......................



## JustOne (Jan 15, 2012)

OK, so you've been told to stay more centered over the ball.......

so now what?


Do you do everything else just the same as normal?


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## oakey22 (Jan 15, 2012)

Keep weight on left side, take backswing, start downswing while thrusting hips to target, then get weight onto left side more and more, hit ball, take a nice divot, and come through to a balanced finish


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## Captainron (Jan 15, 2012)

Is buddhism a credible golf teaching method?


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## chris661 (Jan 15, 2012)

oakey22 said:



			Keep weight on left side, take backswing, start downswing while thrusting hips to target, then get weight onto left side more and more, hit ball, take a nice divot, and come through to a balanced finish 

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Is this not basically stack and tilt


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## MadAdey (Jan 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			OK, so you've been told to stay more centered over the ball.......

so now what?


Do you do everything else just the same as normal?
		
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I really do not know. You must have picked up on my attitude towards the golf swing by now. Grip it and rip it baby...:whoo:. I do not look too deep into the swing and would prefer to pay my pro to do that for me.

But I would say I think you would start to scoop your hands up if you did not put a bit more weight on the front foot to make sure you did not lean back as you struck the ball.


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## Piece (Jan 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			OK, so you've been told to stay more centered over the ball.......

so now what?


Do you do everything else just the same as normal?
		
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Yes. I think people read too much into weight transfer. It should happen naturally with a turn away to right then a swing to the left.


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## JustOne (Jan 15, 2012)

Piece said:



			Yes. I think people read too much into weight transfer.
		
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Let's say you were loading up into your right side to get plenty of power... how r u going to do that if you're now centered?


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## kid2 (Jan 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Let's say you were loading up into your right side to get plenty of power... how r u going to do that if you're now centered?
		
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Short answer you cant! 

I think that if the majority of people heard the term "Stay Centered" then they would invariably keep their weight 50/50 split at address....
Causing all manner of issues.


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## timchump (Jan 15, 2012)

Piece said:



			Yes. I think people read too much into weight transfer. It should happen naturally with a turn away to right then a swing to the left.
		
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i agree just swing back and swing through, there soo many other parts of the swing for me to worry about


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## Mattyboy (Jan 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Let's say you were loading up into your right side to get plenty of power... how r u going to do that if you're now centered?
		
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I dont lose power by staying centered. Its what I have been working on. Loading the right side (tosh if you ask me) implies a sway is good. If you move backwards you have to (at some stage) move back forwards which adds another variable into the swing. 

If I sway I hit the ball  so far off line it really should have a passport!


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## SammmeBee (Jan 15, 2012)

JustOne said:



			OK, so you've been told to stay more centered over the ball.......

so now what?


Do you do everything else just the same as normal?
		
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Yes....change one thing at a time....


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2012)

Loading onto the right side does not need you to sway onto it.  You need to pivot 'around' a flexed right leg.  In the downswing you need to maintain your spine angle and pivot around your left leg, if you cover the ball with your chest in the downswing then your weight shift will happen.  If you keep your head behind the ball then you should stay fairly centered.


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## DaveM (Jan 15, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Loading onto the right side does not need you to sway onto it.  You need to pivot 'around' a flexed right leg.  In the downswing you need to maintain your spine angle and pivot around your left leg, if you cover the ball with your chest in the downswing then your weight shift will happen.  If you keep your head behind the ball then you should stay fairly centered.
		
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What he said.:thup: ...


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## Val (Jan 15, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Loading onto the right side does not need you to sway onto it.  You need to pivot 'around' a flexed right leg.  In the downswing you need to maintain your spine angle and pivot around your left leg, if you cover the ball with your chest in the downswing then your weight shift will happen.  If you keep your head behind the ball then you should stay fairly centered.
		
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DaveM said:



			What he said.:thup: ...
		
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I agree too, but sometimes it's difficult not to get ahead of the ball which for me creates an OTT swing and a wild slice.


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## chrisd (Jan 16, 2012)

Surely, you can stay centred over the ball, but, as your turn comes in, your weight naturally shifts to the right hand side and over your right leg. If at the top of the swing your left shoulder points at the ball you have to have had weight shift and to some extent , coil. It's excessive turn with a sway,that I think most of us try to avoid and I guess thats where we think that we are doing elements of stack and tilt. I don't personally think for most of us S & T comes into it, but trying to stay centred gives us a better chance of a good club to ball contact as there is far less lateral movement going on.

Go, tell me I'm wrong!


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## Snelly (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't understand the original question.  What does stay centered mean? 

And I don't understand most of the responses either.  "Pivot around a flexed leg". Eh?  All manner of issues being caused by having a 50/50 weight distribution?  Really?  

Loads of you really baffle me with your ideas on golf sometimes.  New laws of physics for balls, smash rates, pivots, tilts, stacks, pronating etc etc.   It is all genuinely beyond my comprehension and bears no relation to the game I have played (quite well at times) over the past 30 years.   

I love your enthusiasm but really, in all honesty, I have no idea why you devote so much thinking time to it as I will tell you now for a fact, it will make sod all difference.   

Procrastinating on an internet forum about the technical intricacies of the golf swing won't help your game. Lots of practice is the only way you will get better.  There are no short cuts.

Free your minds from this technical approach!  Remember when Sam Snead was asked what he thought of diuring the golf swing he replied "Nothing. It would be impossible to hit a good shot if I didn't empty my mind before settling over the ball." 

Wise words.


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## steve_wood (Jan 16, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I don't understand the original question.  What does stay centered mean? 

And I don't understand most of the responses either.  "Pivot around a flexed leg". Eh?  All manner of issues being caused by having a 50/50 weight distribution?  Really?  

Loads of you really baffle me with your ideas on golf sometimes.  New laws of physics for balls, smash rates, pivots, tilts, stacks, pronating etc etc.   It is all genuinely beyond my comprehension and bears no relation to the game I have played (quite well at times) over the past 30 years.   

I love your enthusiasm but really, in all honesty, I have no idea why you devote so much thinking time to it as I will tell you now for a fact, it will make sod all difference.   

Procrastinating on an internet forum about the technical intricacies of the golf swing won't help your game. Lots of practice is the only way you will get better.  There are no short cuts.

Free your minds from this technical approach!  Remember when Sam Snead was asked what he thought of diuring the golf swing he replied "Nothing. It would be impossible to hit a good shot if I didn't empty my mind before settling over the ball." 

Wise words.
		
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So its not just me then thats baflled by all this.  Excellent.


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## Piece (Jan 16, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Let's say you were loading up into your right side to get plenty of power... how r u going to do that if you're now centered?
		
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It's a poor phrase "loading up the right side" as all traditional swingers (!) just turn around the spine and the natural balance shift of the shoulders automatically moves some of the weight to approximately in the inside of the right foot. I don't like the "pivot around the right leg" or "left leg" because that isn't (imo) what is actually happening - this will just encourage swaying.

If your basic address is right, then add in a decent takeaway and your weight should be naturally sorted.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 16, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I love your enthusiasm but really, in all honesty, I have no idea why you devote so much thinking time to it as I will tell you now for a fact, it will make sod all difference.   

Lots of practice is the only way you will get better.
		
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Practicing what though? Swinging with no thought about what you are doing?

Surely you need some idea of how the swing works, or what is happening in your swing to give practice some point.

I'm not being pedantic or critical of your appraoch Snelly. I would like to have a more instinctive approach to the game, but I admit I don't. Genuinely interested to hear how one goes about not thinking about the swing mechanics but still learns to hit it better. Are you advocating reacting purely to the shot and adjusting your swing accordingly?


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## Slime (Jan 16, 2012)

Snelly said:



			Procrastinating on an internet forum about the technical intricacies of the golf swing won't help your game. 

Wise words.
		
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It's helping mine!
Haven't improved over the last 10 or so years so needed fresh impetus.
Heard golf commentators talking about S&T & thought I'd have a look. I found this forum, read some posts & thought I'd give it a go...............nothing to lose really.
My irons & fairway woods are going as well as they ever have, it's just the driver I'm having issues with at the moment. Only been using S&T for a few weeks, but I have to admit, I've not taken it to the course yet, only the range.
Can't wait,

*Slime*.

P.S. You're never too old to learn!


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## bobmac (Jan 16, 2012)

Slime said:



			It's helping mine!
Haven't improved over the last 10 or so years so needed fresh impetus.
Heard golf commentators talking about S&T & thought I'd have a look. I found this forum, read some posts & thought I'd give it a go...............nothing to lose really.
My irons & fairway woods are going as well as they ever have, it's just the driver I'm having issues with at the moment. Only been using S&T for a few weeks, but I have to admit, I've not taken it to the course yet, only the range.
Can't wait,

*Slime*.

P.S. You're never too old to learn!
		
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My problem with S&T is the driver.
If you shift so much weight onto your left side, the angle of attack gets very steep.
To counter that, the swing path has to be shallower by swinging in to out and tilting the hips into impact....not easy for the average bear.
The resulting reverse C/K can't do the lower back any good either.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			My problem with S&T is the driver.
		
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mine too


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## Snelly (Jan 16, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Practicing what though? Swinging with no thought about what you are doing?

Surely you need some idea of how the swing works, or what is happening in your swing to give practice some point.

I'm not being pedantic or critical of your appraoch Snelly. I would like to have a more instinctive approach to the game, but I admit I don't. Genuinely interested to hear how one goes about not thinking about the swing mechanics but still learns to hit it better. Are you advocating reacting purely to the shot and adjusting your swing accordingly?
		
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I suppose that is what I am saying yes.  The only caveat being the assumption that your fundamentals like grip, stance and tempo are relatively okay.   As a 9 handicapper, I am certain that yours are.   

I am advocating that if you are on the practice ground and you hit a good 7 iron, try and repeat the swing.  Do the same thing.  Aim for the same result.  Hit 20 good ones and then when you next play, try and do the same thing again.  You know you can, you have proved it.  Just remember those good ones, walk up to the ball, take a stance, focus on watching the club hit the ball and hit another good 7 iron.  

If you can hit a good shot and let's be honest you must be able to as a single figure golfer, then work on hitting them more often.  I haven't seen you play so I can't specifically advise on what you should focus on to achieve this.  However, for most golfers, making a swing at the right tempo, just like those good ones on the practice ground, is probably a good start.  Tempo.  

I know it might seem like over-simplification on my part but I find this is what works for me.   If the tempo of my swing is right, I usually play well.  If I try and belt it, I can hit a horror slice or a snap hook.  If I try and swing to easily, I know I am going to hit the ball straight left. 

All that said, as Mashie eruditely posted recently, there are golfers (historically and today) who prefer the instinctive approach and those that like a mechanical view. I am the former and find the latter to be utterly baffling and it would mess up my game if I tried to apply a physics equation to getting the club square at impact.

You may be the opposite.  It may work for you.  For me though, a smooth even tempo is key with a mindset that is totally empty of clutter i.e. swing thoughts!


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 16, 2012)

Cheers Snelly. A pretty good job of describing it.

Now on amazon..... Snelly: "Play golf my way"

Chapter one: just hit the bloody thing. Well.
Chapter two: do it again, perhaps with a different club.
Chapters three-twenty: etiquette and attire.

 :thup:


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## bobmac (Jan 16, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Cheers Snelly. A pretty good job of describing it.

Now on amazon..... Snelly: "Play golf my way"

Chapter one: just hit the bloody thing. Well.
Chapter two: do it again, perhaps with a different club.
Chapters three-twenty: etiquette and attire.

 :thup:
		
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Chapter 24
Learn how to sink a 40 footer, downhill left to right on the last to win the money 
I was taking bets on a 3 putt


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## Snelly (Jan 16, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Cheers Snelly. A pretty good job of describing it.

Now on amazon..... Snelly: "Play golf my way"

Chapter one: just hit the bloody thing. Well.
Chapter two: do it again, perhaps with a different club.
Chapters three-twenty: etiquette and attire.

 :thup:
		
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Very good!!! :rofl:

Having re-read what I wrote it is probably no use whatsoever! 

I am the worst teacher at golf. Just ask my son. He is 8 and we were at the driving range yesterday. When I hit a couple of shots to show him what to do, my lesson consisted of saying "just do it like this"!  Not very useful! Mind you, it is working for him I think!


Love the book idea, other chapters to include: 

24. 4 wedges - the sign of a madman
25. Get on with it
26. Why modern courses are rubbish
27. Carry your clubs fatty
28. GPS - Generally Pointless Systems
29. Custom fit and other excuses for delusional hackers
30. It is not your clubs, it's you....

Appendix 1 - Best golf clubs for roast beef and Yorkshire pudding
Appendix 2 - what claret with lunch?
Appendix 3 - notes on speech making


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I don't understand the original question.  What does stay centered mean? 

And I don't understand most of the responses either.  "Pivot around a flexed leg". Eh?  All manner of issues being caused by having a 50/50 weight distribution?  Really?  

Loads of you really baffle me with your ideas on golf sometimes.  New laws of physics for balls, smash rates, pivots, tilts, stacks, pronating etc etc.   It is all genuinely beyond my comprehension and bears no relation to the game I have played (quite well at times) over the past 30 years.   

I love your enthusiasm but really, in all honesty, I have no idea why you devote so much thinking time to it as I will tell you now for a fact, it will make sod all difference.   

Procrastinating on an internet forum about the technical intricacies of the golf swing won't help your game. Lots of practice is the only way you will get better.  There are no short cuts.

Free your minds from this technical approach!  Remember when Sam Snead was asked what he thought of diuring the golf swing he replied "Nothing. It would be impossible to hit a good shot if I didn't empty my mind before settling over the ball." 

Wise words.
		
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If this is what lights your bonfire then great for you.   Some of us have a different outlook and as this is a 'Golf Forum'  a place to discuss golf,  then its not surprising that this is what people come here and do.

Re: Sam Snead.  I  would think that Sam had put a lot of time and study to get himself to a level of play where his swing became automatic.  Most of the world greats spend a lot of money on swing gurus.


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## Dave B (Jan 16, 2012)

Staying centred as far as I'm concerned means keeping your head still while maintaining a balanced equilibrium throughout the swing as energy is transferred from one side to the other.


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## kid2 (Jan 16, 2012)

Just in from work and had to get a read of the replies to this post....

Snelly:
Im not trying to start a scrap here Pal.....But..................
If your of the opinion that players should get out there and just practice to get better.....Would you not be of the same opinion that practicing the wrong thing is just going to take you longer to get out of the habit....

Take for instance Mr. Joe average.....
He takes up the game very keen on improving...New clubs and the lot....But he is so frustrated that he hits every shot with a wild slice.....He is playing his golf at a course that has heaps of trees down both side of alot of the holes....

Ok this lad has no technical thoughts whatsoever after just taking up the game.....

What would your instruction be to this lad?


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## Slime (Jan 16, 2012)

kid2 said:



			Take for instance Mr. Joe average.....
He takes up the game very keen on improving...New clubs and the lot....But he is so frustrated that he hits every shot with a wild slice.....He is playing his golf at a course that has heaps of trees down both side of alot of the holes....

Ok this lad has no technical thoughts whatsoever after just taking up the game.....

What would your instruction be to this lad?
		
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Hey...............leave me outta this *kid2*.


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## Scouser (Jan 16, 2012)

kid2 said:



			Take for instance Mr. Joe average.....
He takes up the game very keen on improving...New clubs and the lot....But he is so frustrated that he hits every shot with a wild slice.....He is playing his golf at a course that has heaps of trees down both side of alot of the holes....

Ok this lad has no technical thoughts whatsoever after just taking up the game.....

What would your instruction be to this lad?
		
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I was told to give up the game


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## Snelly (Jan 17, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			If this is what lights your bonfire then great for you. Some of us have a different outlook and as this is a 'Golf Forum' a place to discuss golf, then its not surprising that this is what people come here and do.

Re: Sam Snead. I would think that Sam had put a lot of time and study to get himself to a level of play where his swing became automatic. Most of the world greats spend a lot of money on swing gurus.
		
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I am talking about golf.  

And yes I am sure any top golfer put the time in which is precisely what I am suggesting you do if you want to improve.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2012)

Snelly said:



			I am talking about golf.  

And yes I am sure any top golfer put the time in which is precisely what I am suggesting you do if you want to improve.
		
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You are confusing me here.   I thought you suggested that people should not study or come on a Golf Forum and talk about the golf swing.    You seemed to suggest that just hitting golf balls was the way forward.

I am suggesting thats not enough for the vast majority.   Most golfers never have lessons and practise to ingrain a poor golf swing.    This is probably why the average handicap is somthing like 22.


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## JustOne (Jan 17, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			You are confusing me here. I thought you suggested that people should not study or come on a Golf Forum and talk about the golf swing. You seemed to suggest that just hitting golf balls was the way forward.

I am suggesting thats not enough for the vast majority. Most golfers never have lessons and practise to ingrain a poor golf swing. This is probably why the average handicap is somthing like 22.
		
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I think Snelly is suggesting that lessons are a waste of time  ... after all nothing beats standing on the range until your hands bleed while you try to figure it out on your own.... LMAO!


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## JustOne (Jan 18, 2012)

bobmac said:



			My problem with S&T is the driver.
If you shift so much weight onto your left side, the angle of attack gets very steep.
To counter that, the swing path has to be shallower by swinging in to out and tilting the hips into impact....not easy for the average bear.
The resulting reverse C/K can't do the lower back any good either.
		
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Are you a chiropractor or is that speculation Bob??... I ask because *registered* chiropractors have said it puts the *least stress* on the lower back than any other swing and I thought you may have some exclusive breakthrough discovery?

It's funny that you'd pick S&T driver as the problem seeing that people ALREADY can barely hit their driver properly, we are a nation of slicers, hookers and thinners. *Out of all the people who ever had lessons how many are satisfied with their driver?* Is that S&T's fault or the method they've been taught for the past 20 years?

S&T driver isn't _that_ hard. Undoing peoples bad habits is the hard part. People who start S&T and want to hit push-draws have to take it to an extreme 'impact fix' position in order to get themselves out of their bad habits, it's actually very easy for hitting push-fades with S&T.

Anyway that said.... the thread was about staying centered not S&T... so....


as you've started advising people to stay more centered perhaps you can explain where they will get their power from now they are not using a big weightshift to the right......?


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## bobmac (Jan 18, 2012)

I ask because *registered* chiropractors have said it puts the *least stress* on the lower back than any other swing
		
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I wasn't talking about the swing, I was talking about the finishing position....the reverse c/k versus the straight spine.




			It's funny that you'd pick S&T driver as the problem seeing that  people ALREADY can barely hit their driver properly,
		
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I was only replying to Slimes problems he's having.




			we are a nation of  slicers, hookers and thinners.
		
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or as I like to call them...self taught.




			Undoing peoples bad habits is the hard part
		
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Tell me something new. People who have taught themselves for years then want me to change their out to in swings to in to out is very difficult, which is why I have the head cover drill as one of my fixes.




			as you've started advising people to stay more centered perhaps you can  explain where they will get their power from now they are not using a  big weightshift to the right......?
		
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I have never taught anyone to use a big weight shift to their right however, I have been teaching people to stay centred for the last 30 years...as per my Jack Nicklaus reference in another thread.

A question for you now.
What would you say to a mid teens h/cap who swings out to in and wants to learn S&T?


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## JustOne (Jan 18, 2012)

bobmac said:



			A question for you now.
What would you say to a mid teens h/cap who swings out to in and wants to learn S&T?
		
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Firstly, what's the catch Bob? Does he only have a right leg? or a fused spine in 15 places?


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## bobmac (Jan 19, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Firstly, what's the catch Bob? Does he only have a right leg? or a fused spine in 15 places?
		
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No catch, just an out to in swing.


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2012)

If there's no catch Bob then the first thing I'd say to someone who wants to learn S&T is "*BUY THE BOOK*" 

I normally ask someone if when they line up square can they hit the ball to the right, and then explain why it's important and/or things they can work on if they want to try.


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## Dave B (Jan 20, 2012)

I think most people find golf hard enough to work out without S & T. IMO it only helps to confuse many golfers who are still trying to get to grips with the fundamental basics such as grip, set up and a basic swing principles.

There's an old saying, get the basics right, build a good foundation and everthing else will fall into place.


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## JustOne (Jan 20, 2012)

Dave B said:



			I think most people find golf hard enough to work out without S & T. IMO it only helps to confuse many golfers who are still trying to get to grips with the fundamental basics such as grip, set up and a basic swing principles.

There's an old saying, get the basics right, build a good foundation and everthing else will fall into place.
		
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If you can't come to terms with grip then what swing exactly WILL be easy? The one where you move about a lot or one that keeps you centered over the ball?


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## Dave B (Jan 20, 2012)

Justone.

I posted this earlier in the post:

16-Jan-2012 18:53#28*Dave B*


*Re: Let's discuss: Staying centered.......................*

Staying centred as far as I'm concerned means keeping your head still while maintaining a balanced equilibrium throughout the swing as energy is transferred from one side to the other.         


Have I missed the point before the topic was changed to stack and tilt?


​


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## JustOne (Jan 20, 2012)

Dave, if you are centered how do you 'transfer energy from one side to the other' without moving your head around? Your feet are fixed and your head is fixed, do you just wobble the middle bits?


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## Dave B (Jan 20, 2012)

JustOne

I think you know exactly what I mean, however not knowing you I don't know if you'd wobble around the middle bits or not 

If you don't know what I mean ask a pro for a lesson using video photo imprinting. 

Alternatively watch the golf on TV and watch to see how much a pro's head moves during the swing, you'll find his head position is constant throughout the swing until the club has struck the ball, i.e he is centred and balanced at all times until the ball is struck. If he loses his balance during the follow through he has swung to hard and lost his centre of balance.

I've just seen your video, head still and centred, you are a wind up merchant :whoo:


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## JustOne (Jan 20, 2012)

Dave B said:



			I've just seen your video, head still and centred, you are a wind up merchant :whoo:
		
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Yes but I'm stacked. I tilt my shoulders down and allow the right leg to straighten, is there another way? Can you hit the ball if your shoulders turn flat? If you turn to your right how do you come out of the forward bend that you were in at address without lifting or moving your head?.........


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## Dave B (Jan 20, 2012)

Justone
Watch your video, your'e nearly there:fore:

Professional coaches use video  imprinting by taking a video of your swing and overlaying it on a well known professionals profile who has a similar swing. The right leg should always retain some flex, (if you straighten it you're popping up dipping the shoulder and scooping the ball to compensate all of which which will create head movement. It's a well known fact that one of the  biggest faults of most amateur golfers is dipping the shoulder and moving the head. Coaches use the imprint of the professional head position to demonstate that the head should not move until the ball has been struck. 

In addition some coaches will advise you to keep looking at the original ball/tee position after you have hit the ball to stop you bring your head up early and duffing the shot by looking for the ball before you strike it.

The swing is all about balance, and rotation around a central axis transfering weight from right to left, (right handed player).  If you can rotate 90 degrees, while keeping the hips quiet, without swaying, keeping your head in the same position you have good basic foundation to build the swing around. Swing planes and club positions are a totally different subject that should be covered on another thread.

I've watched your videos on your S&T thread and your leg is flexed throughout so basically you haven't a leg to stand on


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## Region3 (Jan 20, 2012)




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## JustOne (Jan 20, 2012)

Region3 said:








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I'm not biting!  Might make myself a cuppa.................


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## Region3 (Jan 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'm not biting!  Might make myself a cuppa.................
		
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:clap:


...but you will.


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## JustOne (Jan 20, 2012)

Damn you!.... I might in a minute after the kettle has boiled..............


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## Piece (Jan 20, 2012)

Whilst surfing t'internet for knowledge on life and the universe, I stumbled on this very long and detailed paper from 2007 on centralised weight shifting the golf swing... http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/weight.htm 

Talks about the left centralised swing and the right centralised swing, and interestingly talks about S&T, saying that most think they are doing S&T when in fact they are not.

It's worth a read if you've got hours to spare and a ton of patience...


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## JustOne (Jan 21, 2012)

Dave firstly thanks for your reply, I appreciate your comments/input very much and you are right, I am nearly there 

The point of the thread was not *my* swing (I'm cool with my swing) it was an open ended question for others to answer. Let's say you have a Ford engine and you want to put it in a Ferrari, it won't fit, you can't just swap it out, agreed? OK so let's say you've got a golf swing where you load into your right side (that's the Ford by the way) and someone tells you to be more centered (the Ferrari) well your old Ford swing won't fit straight into the Ferrari swing you have to adapt it, it's not possible to keep all the little parts of your old swing exactly the same if you're now staying more centered... for a start you won't be getting the same weight shift you used to have, secondly you might feel very steep etc etc So it was an open question to the forum along the lines of "do you KNOW what you need to change in your swing to stay more centered and actually be able to hit the ball effectively". How do you deal with that lack of weightshift? or the steepness? or any of the other issues related with suddenly being more centered. Does anyone really understand what being more centered MEANS or what the implications are? *I don't think it's right to casually tell someone to stay more centered if you can't then tell them of what that implies to the rest of their swing*. I already know the answers as I use a centered swing method so this isn't about me ....I can bomb it! ....and occasionally on target too!! 


Here's the original question... (and admittedly the thread did go waaaaay off topic, nothing new there)....




			OK, so you've been told to stay more centered over the ball.......

so now what?

Do you do everything else just the same as normal?
		
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Clearly the answer begins with "No..................."


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## JustOne (Jan 21, 2012)

Piece said:



			It's worth a read if you've got hours to spare and a ton of patience...

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I like the line from that page that says... 




			"I hope that those terms offer beginner golfers deeper insights into the complexities of a centralised backswing swing style"

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 ...which emphasises nicely what I just said above.. you can't just tell someone to stay more centered... they won't have a clue what that entails.


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## Dave B (Jan 21, 2012)

JustOne.

If only you'd said that in the first place  

Off to play golf will post later.


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## JustOne (Jan 21, 2012)

No worries Dave, it was just a subject for conversation purposes. Hope your round was a good one.


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## Slime (Jan 21, 2012)

Dave B said:



			The right leg should always retain some flex.
*
Should it? Who says so?
*



The swing is all about balance, and rotation around a central axis transfering weight from right to left.

*I can't transfer wieght from side to side whilst turning on a central axis, I don't think that's possible unless the central axis is 'floating', i.e. not a fixed axis. Would have thought a fixed axis would be far more reliable for getting the clubhead back to a certain point, i.e. the back of the golf ball.
*

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*Slime*.


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## Dave B (Jan 21, 2012)

Slime

Traditional fundamental basics advise keeping the leg flexed throughout the swing to help you transfer weight and retain balance, however after reading up,  Stack and Tilt suggests keeping the right leg straight on the back swing, (I see this is now going to get complicated, what happend to simple basics )

It's very easy on a forum to missinterpret what somebody says and it's very easy to be misunderstood if you don't allow for interpretation so I'll clarify

_The swing is all about balance, and rotation around a central axis transfering weight from right to left.

_If you watch a pro his head is still until thoughout the swing until the ball is struck which is why coaches use photo imprinting to emphasize head movement as one of the biggest faults in most golfers.

If the head is kept still until the ball is struck would it be fair to say that it is the only part of the body that is  truly centred?

Would it also be fair to assume that the head acts as the central pivot point for the swing given that the head position is the only constant until the ball is struck ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxyC-bpm0RE

Weight shift and generating power is opening a whole different can of worms, however the general laws of physics state for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The way I look at it in the golf swing is that when creating and releasing these forces in order to have consistency and accuracy you need to retain balance.

JustOne

I had a good round beating my playing partner who plays off 14, however the wind was horrendous. Incidentally going back to your post my grip was changed earlier this year and it's hard to believe how such a simple thing can completely change the mechanics of the swing. It's taken me the best part of 6 months to rebuild and adjust to my new swing. It has been a benefit in the long term however my scores suffered terribly in the transition to my new swing


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2012)

Regarding the flex in the right knee, to me it is a critical element in creating a powerful swing and maintaining balance.

I admit to only taking a brief look at Stack & Tilt so cannot comment with knowledge of how this may differ.  In the swing that I do know about it's important.  Rather than create a long post on why I believe this I have attached a link to a sound explanation that anyone can read if they wish:

http://www.golftipsmag.com/instruction/faults-and-fixes/lessons/the-key-ingredient.html


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## JustOne (Jan 21, 2012)

I think the issue with the right knee flexed comes from trying to stop people stacking over it. The way the swing was taught over the past 20 years is very similar to the picture you linked to Brian where the weight sits over the right leg, I totally agree that if you were to straighten a leg in that circumstance it would be fatal, but it doesn't comply with a more centered (one plane) swing which NEEDS the hips to rotate more and as a result the leg will straighten more. Instead of a 2 plane arm swing it's more of a one plane body swing, to that extent they are different, and so are the components.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I think the issue with the right knee flexed comes from trying to stop people stacking over it. The way the swing was taught over the past 20 years is very similar to the picture you linked to Brian where the weight sits over the right leg, I totally agree that if you were to straighten a leg in that circumstance it would be fatal, but it doesn't comply with a more centered (one plane) swing which NEEDS the hips to rotate more and as a result the leg will straighten more. Instead of a 2 plane arm swing it's more of a one plane body swing, to that extent they are different, and so are the components.
		
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James,

I think with S&T that you create an almost reverse pivot on the backswing and then kinda maintain this position in the downswing so you dont lean onto the back leg (I think) .

I do know something about one plane rotary swings and my understanding is that you need to maintain right knee flex in this type of swing.

Take a look at Jeff Ritter who has a beautiful one plane swing and teaches this style, see how well he maintains his right knee flex throughout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc4K58tpNm4&feature=relmfu


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## Dave B (Jan 21, 2012)

Brian

I've never heard of Jeff Ritter, however his swing is very similar to mine which my playing partner describes as a Steve Stricker type swing, in that it is essentially a 3/4 swing.


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## JustOne (Jan 21, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			James,

I think with S&T that you create an almost reverse pivot on the backswing and then kinda maintain this position in the downswing so you dont lean onto the back leg (I think) .

I do know something about one plane rotary swings and my understanding is that you need to maintain right knee flex in this type of swing.

Take a look at Jeff Ritter who has a beautiful one plane swing and teaches this style, see how well he maintains his right knee flex throughout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc4K58tpNm4&feature=relmfu

Click to expand...

Yep, I like Jeff Ritter's stuff, very understandable. 

Yes S&T is close to a reverse pivot motion but it isn't a reverse pivot as you are straight (at most) and not leaning towards the target. The idea of stack and tilt is that the shoulders simply rotate in a circle over the ball instead of rotating towards the back foot.

I know I'm not going to be able to find a whole lot of examples for you as there's not that many (or any) swing gurus (old or new) who'd outright say to go ahead and allow the right leg to straighten, S&T instruction states as part of it's pattern that it's OK to do so. If you take a look at someone (who we know is flat) like Kuchar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk73K6x5XMI you can see that he 'allows' his trailing leg to straighten, sure it doesn't lock, but neither does mine... it's not the same as Ritter has it, so to an extent you need to define what exactly is a 'flexed knee' for you? Is it forward facing, right facing, 5Â° bend, turned inwards, so that when you describe it people will understand. I allow mine to straighten a lot but not lock.. is that still flexed?


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## Dave B (Jan 21, 2012)

JustOne

Have you found you get more distance, more accuracy or more consistency, (please clarify), since converting to S&T. In addition does S&T allow you to swing harder at the ball without going off balance


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## JustOne (Jan 21, 2012)

Dave B said:



			JustOne

Have you found you get more distance, more accuracy or more consistency, (please clarify)
		
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For me it's all 3. I get more distance as I now hit down on the ball more, the accuracy is good as the shot shape is more predictable and I hit less bad shots than I used to when I wasn't practicing. Admittedly I need more range time but that's not what I was after. I wanted a swing that I didn't need to practice much (if at all) yet still maintain the ability to get round in a reasonable score and (hopefully) enjoy the game more. I didn't really want to take the 'JammyDodger route' and just give up.

I don't need to go at the ball harder as the swing is more like a 'whip' at impact, it feels a lot more powerful through impact yet from only a Â¾ backswing. Compact is the best way to describe it. I do tend to try and blast it off the tee a little too often (especially in fun games), I'm a little more reserved when I'm not playing like a knob 

TBH I'd like to hit the ball a bit softer and control it more.. but as I said above that would require some time on the practice ground which frankly I'm not prepared to do right now. Falling into a ditch and twisting my left knee didn't exactly help


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			so to an extent you need to define what exactly is a 'flexed knee' for you? Is it forward facing, right facing, 5Â° bend, turned inwards, so that when you describe it people will understand. I allow mine to straighten a lot but not lock.. is that still flexed?
		
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A flexed knee to me is quite simple.  It retains the forward bend in the knee as close as possible to that set at address.   It is nothing to do with turning inwards or outwards.


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## JustOne (Jan 22, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			A flexed knee to me is quite simple. It retains the forward bend in the knee as close as possible to that set at address. It is nothing to do with turning inwards or outwards.
		
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As a matter of interest......

I assume you are sitting on a chair whilst at your PC? If you stand up, face the chair and take your normal golf posture so that both your knees are flexed and your kneecaps are touching the front edge of the seat and you are bent forward at the waist (as in your normal golf posture), how much shoulder turn can you make without your knees coming away from the chair or standing up? 

(nb: you can slide them sideways if you want as long as they remain touching the chair)


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## Dave B (Jan 22, 2012)

The only way you can keep the head still until the point of impact and retain balance during the swing is by moving other body parts to impliment the swing. 

Both Luke Donald and Rory McIlroy move their knees during the swing as this is the only way you can bump your hips toward the target

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...rplLoL&usg=AFQjCNGBG1QZjDHnAbtz0P4kJOXrYcLVYA

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...0a2fCw&usg=AFQjCNGVnVsLioHaTGUcyR3wX6vrUPU_kA


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			As a matter of interest......

I assume you are sitting on a chair whilst at your PC? If you stand up, face the chair and take your normal golf posture so that both your knees are flexed and your kneecaps are touching the front edge of the seat and you are bent forward at the waist (as in your normal golf posture), how much shoulder turn can you make without your knees coming away from the chair or standing up? 

(nb: you can slide them sideways if you want as long as they remain touching the chair)
		
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I didnt say the knees cannot tur. , I said try to maintain their bend, it's nothing to do with turning them.   I think you know what I mean by this, dont allow your right knee to straighten.

Not sure if this is a good thing with S&T  but it is a very bad move otherwise.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2012)

Dave B said:



			The only way you can keep the head still until the point of impact and retain balance during the swing is by moving other body parts to impliment the swing. 

Both Luke Donald and Rory McIlroy move their knees during the swing as this is the only way you can bump your hips toward the target

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=luke donald slow motion swing&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DhbskozAvD4g&ei=ndMbT9nBOdCUOsrplLoL&usg=AFQjCNGBG1QZjDHnAbtz0P4kJOXrYcLVYA

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rory mcilroy slow motion&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkR9mY8kYCwc&ei=hdQbT7SqK83I8gPC0a2fCw&usg=AFQjCNGVnVsLioHaTGUcyR3wX6vrUPU_kA

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They both keep their knee flex.    They turn their knee in but they stay flexed.


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