# The peasants are revolting



## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2021)

After Tashyboy smashed it today we were sat having a tincture talking rammel In the 19th. Anyway if you remember i mentioned a few weeks back one of our best players at the club was moaning about the WHS system. He is off scratch and said he nigh on has to shoot a course record to have a chance of winning a board comp. I told him the according to ENGLAND golf it is a fairer system for all inc single figure players. He nearly went into meltdown.
Anyway today he mentioned that a few guys at out place have spoke to England golf and mentioned there concerns. Apparently they have been in touch with 10 local clubs and not one low handicapper/ scratch player has won any board comps. They are not happy. Apparantly England golf said “ the WHS system is fairer”. At this point I could not help but remind him that “ I told you so”. He then went onto say that weekend comps have dropped form 150 ish to 90 odd because players with low hcaps feel they don’t have a chance of winning. The club pro apparently agrees.  Now this is the guy who tried stiffing me for £15 so my first thoughts are he is more concerned with losing money rather than the fairness of WHS
That said a few lads were taking no crap off him and said we all know the score before we go out what our hcap are. 
Me i thought he was just bothered about scratch golfers and no one else.  
But has anyone seen a drop in comp entries at the course due to the WHS.
Thoughts me dears.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2021)

Thoughts - what a cry baby , I can’t win a handicap competition anymore so I’m going to cry to EG 

Why doesn’t he enter scratch comps ? 

How many scratch players won HC comps before Congu - not very many I’m going to guess 

A 6 HC just won our second board comp


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## BiMGuy (Jun 10, 2021)

We've only had one board comp and two monthly medals. The rest have been yellow and blue tee Stablefords.

In the 2 medals. A scratch player would have had shoot 62 to win. The board comp would have been 63 to win.

Div 2 of last weekends monthly medal was won with a net 59 by someone off 22. Said player had last put in a score in November 20. The score was 100 and a few similar scores before that. Then turns up in a monthly medal and shoots a gross 81. It's raised a few eyebrows.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We've only had one board comp and two monthly medals. The rest have been yellow and blue tee Stablefords.

In the 2 medals. A scratch player would have had shoot 62 to win. The board comp would have been 63 to win.

Div 2 of last weekends monthly medal was won with a net 59 by someone off 22. Said player had last put in a score in November 20. The score was 100 and a few similar scores before that. Then turns up in a monthly medal and shoots a gross 81. It's raised a few eyebrows.
		
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Without going off on tangents, he then turned the conversation into “ cheating” as well. I will be honest I kinda turned off after 10 mins.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thoughts - what a cry baby , I can’t win a handicap competition anymore so I’m going to cry to EG 

Why doesn’t he enter scratch comps ? 

How many scratch players won HC comps before Congu - not very many I’m going to guess 

A 6 HC just won our second board comp
		
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But aren't HCs supposed to level the playing field so we can all compete? What you're saying there would suggest not?

I've gone back through a few of this years comps. Only 3 have been won by a single figure player. The lowest of which is 7.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 10, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Without going off on tangents, he then turned the conversation into “ cheating” as well. I will be honest I kinda turned off after 10 mins.
		
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I'm sure there is some cheating going on. But there always has been. 

The new system of being able to put your own casual cards in makes it very easy to manipulate your HI if so inclined.


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## Crow (Jun 10, 2021)

Numbers dropped from 150 to 90 because low cappers aren't entering? 
That's 60 low cappers out of 150, must be a high standard of golfer at the club is all I can say.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2021)

Crow said:



			Numbers dropped from 150 to 90 because low cappers aren't entering?
That's 60 low cappers out of 150, must be a high standard of golfer at the club is all I can say. 

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Crow I sat listening to him and like I say I turned off,  but he was quoting people at the club so am Not sure how truthful or exaggerated  his comments were.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2021)

Had precisely the same conversation as described in the OP this evening with the 5 handicapper I played with.  He and other low handicappers don’t see there being any chance of them winning any of the main board handicap comps - all going to be won by high handicappers.  Plus no point in entering a team of low handicappers in a team event - got to have at least one high guy to have a chance.

I’ll add...In the most recent board handicap comp one low guy off 4 knocked it round in level in difficult conditions - one of his best knocks for a good while.  He came second to a high guy with three WHS rounds under his belt and who knocked it round in 9 under his handicap.  Lets just say the low guy was ... ‘disappointed’.

This subject is certainty ‘hot’ among the low guys at my place.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			But aren't HCs supposed to level the playing field so we can all compete? What you're saying there would suggest not?

I've gone back through a few of this years comps. Only 3 have been won by a single figure player. The lowest of which is 7.
		
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They do level it as best as it can - if everyone plays to their handicap then it’s even , just like always some days people play below and some above it. The player no doubt won a fair whack getting down to scratch and I suspect he didn’t go running to EG then 

There is a lot of settling down to happen with WHS


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## garyinderry (Jun 10, 2021)

Wasnt it always hard for a scratch player to win any handicap comp. 

It's not that hard for anyone to shoot 5 under their handicap.  It's not that easy for a scratch man to be 5 under par.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Had precisely the same conversation as described in the OP with the 5 handicapper I played with this evening.  He and other low handicappers don’t see there being any chance of them winning any of the main board handicap comps - all going to be won by high handicappers.  Plus no point in entering a team of low handicappers in a team event - got to have at least one high guy to have a chance.
		
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SILH, is there anything that has really changed from the old system to this one though. I really don’t know.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We've only had one board comp and two monthly medals. The rest have been yellow and blue tee Stablefords.

In the 2 medals. A scratch player would have had shoot 62 to win. The board comp would have been 63 to win.

Div 2 of last weekends monthly medal was won with a net 59 by someone off 22. Said player had last put in a score in November 20. The score was 100 and a few similar scores before that. Then turns up in a monthly medal and shoots a gross 81. It's raised a few eyebrows.
		
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That can happen .  This week I sprayed it everywhere and swing just went.
Mid twenties points. Few weeks ago everything went right and I had over 40.
There are two sorts of high handicappers. Those who are steady, down the middle, many par 4s always being par 5s. Others, - have parred every hole  on the course, but never in one round😀.
But, once in a blue moon, it nearly comes right and an extraordinary score happens...
Personally, I'd love to have a cat 1 players ability. I'd trade my handicap and occasional win , for that and no win at all.


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## SammmeBee (Jun 10, 2021)

Maybe these scratch handicappers just aren’t…….


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## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That can happen .  This week I sprayed it everywhere and swing just went.
Mid twenties points. Few weeks ago everything went right and I had over 40.
There are two sorts of high handicappers. Those who are steady, down the middle, many par 4s always being par 5s. Others, - have parred every hole  on the course, but never in one round😀.
But, once in a blue moon, it nearly comes right and an extraordinary score happens...
*Personally, I'd love to have a cat 1 players ability. I'd trade my handicap and occasional win , for that and no win at all*.
		
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This 👍, the guy i mentioned plays in the clubs team and they won county team comp last year or the year before Covid.


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## Oxfordcomma (Jun 10, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, is there anything that has really changed from the old system to this one though. I really don’t know.
		
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Low handicappers have always complained about this one but the stats have never backed them up. Too early to say if anything has changed under WHS of course but I bet it hasn't.

3 or 4 years ago I went through all of our past comps over a few years, in response to a similar thread, and it turned out the vast majority were won by either Cat 1 or Cat 3 golfers. The occasional Cat 4 having the round of their life, but it was the Cat 2 golfers who were under-represented.

This year, we've only had 4 weekend comps at ours so far, they were won by a guy off 4 (the only board comp, rubbish weather and he was the only player in the entire field to beat handicap), friend of mine off 11, a junior off 22 and a guy off 20. Seems OK to me so far.


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## Pants (Jun 10, 2021)

One wonders how many comps some people excelled in while on their way down to Cat 1


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## Billysboots (Jun 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They do level it as best as it can - if everyone plays to their handicap then it’s even , just like always some days people play below and some above it. *The player no doubt won a fair whack getting down to scratch and I suspect he didn’t go running to EG then*

There is a lot of settling down to happen with WHS
		
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That one sentence sums this whole argument up for me, and there are countless examples of it at our place. Low single figure golfers who spent half a dozen years or so winning comps left, right and centre as their handicaps tumbled, and who now can’t stand seeing higher handicap players doing exactly the same. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

To the low single figure players I say this. Enjoy competing for your Club Championship. Enjoy playing scratch league matches. Enjoy representing your club in prestigious county events. Because the vast, vast majority of us will never enjoy those opportunities. But don’t then whine like two year olds when, because you have made it to the top table, an 18 handicap golfer enjoys his day in the sun and shoots 45 points in a board comp which you can’t better.

Sorry, but the attitude of some low single figure golfers to this issue really grinds my gears.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, is there anything that has really changed from the old system to this one though. I really don’t know.
		
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Yes hcap has gone up to 54.
Used to be 28.
But it’s not the really high ones who are winning at our place .
It’s the 15 /20 who are winning at ours, can’t say why ,it’s a mystery.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

We've had 3 board comps. Not sure what the winners played off at the time, but their current HIs are 6.7, 10.3 and 19.1.
We have two players off +2, one off scratch and one off 1. They play board comps to compete for the lowest gross prize, twos sweep and simply to get scores in.
Last board comp I won the lowest gross, tied with one of the +2 chaps but beat him on the back nine.
Not aware of any bleating at my club by low-handicappers, because it is no harder or easier to win a board comp than it used to be.
There is the continuing ignorant rubbish from higher handicappers about "losing a shot in competitions with the 95%, when lower handicaps do not lose a shot". This really sickens me now.
No drop in entries.
Both +2 chaps have shot a 7-under par round in the past. Their board comps are the club champs and the scratch knockout. They never complain about the nett board comps.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 11, 2021)

I think that the reason for this is that, in every club, there are a number of players who are improving rapidly & capable of shooting 5 or more shots below their handicap. It's very hard for a Cat. 1 player to do this. This is why there is an argument for restricting entry to board competitions to 20 handicap & lower.


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## Billysboots (Jun 11, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			This is why there is an argument for restricting entry to board competitions to 20 handicap & lower.
		
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Hmmm. Don’t you think that’s just a bit elitist?

What about seniors, ladies playing at clubs where there are mixed competitions, newer golfers, and a whole host of others who, for a variety of reasons and often through no fault of their own, play off higher handicaps?

I have a very good friend who used to be a steady 11/12 handicap player. A couple of years ago he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s and now, whilst still an active member at his club, struggles off 23. Who’s going to be the one to tell him that, after 20+ years membership at his place, he is no longer welcome to play board competitions?


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2021)

My favourite chestnut.

Low h/caps (good players) complaining about not having a chance.
They get told to go and play in scratch opens and leagues.
So they pay their £1000 subs and get told to go and play somewhere else. Brilliant.

Can you imagine someone off 28 joining a club and discovering most comps are scratch. He has no chance of winning but gets told to go and play somewhere else because they have nett comps. He has no chance of winning because he's not very good at golf.

The low h/cap guy has no chance of winning because he is a good player.

I'm a big fan of the h/cap system when it works because it allows different standards of golfer to compete on a level playing field. Sadly it doesn't always work and when good players turn up for the monthly medal and pay their entrance money, knowing that they have no chance of winning, it's a sad state of affairs, especially when they get told the solution is to go and play somewhere else.
Golf, the only sport that penalises you for being a good player


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes hcap has gone up to 54.
Used to be 28.
But it’s not the really high ones who are winning at our place .
It’s the 15 /20 who are winning at ours, can’t say why ,it’s a mystery.
		
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I wonder if that has anything to do with the 15/20s having the largest number in the field. It has been shown that the number of winners from a category in handicap comps is proportional to the number of players in the categories.


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## Wildboy370 (Jun 11, 2021)

We have two + handicappers at ours, each week they are always in top 5 if not admit they had a shocker. Is it not a case at the moment the high handicap guys are getting a bigger  than normal helping hand with how dry everything is, so lots run, more distance, nearer the green with shots still in bag ? At least if they have a good round they will be pulled uNader the new system and possibly quite heavily so. 
Unlike the pairs comps which still harbour the journey men. Played four senior events at various courses and each one been a stack of 20 plus ( after 85% reduction ) pairs getting 48 points or more. To get in top 10 you needed 45 points. Sadly playing off 9 that ain’t possible. Thought the WHS was going to make 4bbb put both scores down and entered into system to prevent this.
? Pair we played with last time admitted it was their third comp that week..


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## Neilds (Jun 11, 2021)

Must be really hard if you need to win board competitions to maintain your self esteem/pay your bills/get a life partner and not just be able to play for enjoyment 😀


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## IanM (Jun 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s the 15 /20 who are winning at ours, can’t say why ,it’s a mystery.
		
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I think that group have a huge deviation on their range if scores, so if they have a good day, sky's the limit.

My 19 handicap buddy has broken 80, but he also struggles to break 100 when he's having a mare.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

I see that our Captains Day Medal was won by a 12 handicapper with a nett 7 under.  Now I am not sure what that says because 12 isn’t exactly a low handicap, but neither is it a high handicap, other than to note that all the tees were right on the back plates and holes were cut in relatively easy positions.  The winner said that he holed everything.  

I guess the answer for my place is that for the more important board comps played on specific dayswe should be playing off the plates with tough pin positions.  Of course that can’t be done for all board comps and can’t be in place for knock outs.  But at least it suggests that the course can hold its own against the very higher handicap players when we‘d like it to.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes hcap has gone up to 54.
Used to be 28.
But it’s not the really high ones who are winning at our place .
It’s the 15 /20 who are winning at ours, can’t say why ,it’s a mystery.
		
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Tricky Trev ( hcap 15) me PP was runner up on captains day with 43 points to a guy who shot 44 playing off 27. There was a few grumbles but not from Trev. Anyway I pointed out that I won it around 2013 playing off 27 so nowts new.
When I could get a word in, I did say it probably has not helped that the WHS started when we were in the Covid and a lot of non golfers joined with high handicaps.
Another thing he was moaning about and I only half herd it. He was saying that England golf is asking that visitors from other clubs be allowed to play in board comps. I could of got that bit wrong, but it was something along those lines that brought him onto the “ cheating” bit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, is there anything that has really changed from the old system to this one though. I really don’t know.
		
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The low guys think so.

And in truth they could point at such as I.  Come the Club Champs in September I can see myself playing off a CH of 12 or even 13 due to the way WHS is working for me, when last year in club champs I was off 8 and did a first round knock of net two under.  Do the same this year off PH of 12 and I’ll be net 6 under.  I know I am well capable of doing it, and indeed I think my golf is basically better a bit better than it was last year.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2021)

We have had one high handicapper win so far this year, handicap was cut heavily after as he only had few cards in and the score was daft. Other than that it is 12 h/c and below largely winning, single figure golfers more often than not.

I played in a 4bbb open last Sunday. Winners were off 1 and 7. Tough course, 141 slope, so maybe that helped the cream rise.

Anyway, my experience seems to differ quite a bit from others on here. In effect, nothing to see.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2021)

Wildboy370 said:



			Thought the WHS was going to make 4bbb put both scores down and entered into system to prevent this.
? .
		
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Initially CONGU decided to 'wait and see' and let WHS settle down. However, Ireland are trialling it at present.


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## Biggleswade Blue (Jun 11, 2021)

Isn't this all the point of handicaps though?  To win a nett competition, you have to play better than you did when the handicap was set.  That is going to favour any competitor who has a great day by their own standards, which will be likely to include any player in a period of rapid improvement.  It is much harder for a golfer who usually shoots 75 to one off shoot 65, than it is for someone who usually shoots 100 to shoot 90.  Even if both players are having lessons, practice, luck.  However, those higher handicap golfers are likely to be a bit less consistent, which means the lower handicap, more consistent golfer is still in with a chance.

If your sole reason for entering competitions is to win them, then you'll pick comps you think give you a chance; medals favour consistent players, Stableford give the rest of us a chance, scratch comps favour the low handicap golfer.  That's fair enough. 

But if you enjoy a bit of competition, playing with people you perhaps would not normally, and a chance to see if your best day can coincide with a comp, you'll throw your hat into the ring.  To be honest, I really enjoy seeing other players play really well, have an outstanding round, hit great shots, and that's part of the fun for me.  A mate I played with a few weeks ago had his best round ever, and it was great to see him do it, and share his buzz!


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## RichA (Jun 11, 2021)

In a field of 50 handicapped golfers, any individual should have a 1 in 50 chance of winning, based on their performance that day, but regardless of their HI.
Surely it's only suspicious or flawed if *the same* individual keeps winning and their HI doesn't change.
The anecdotal evidence on here suggests that most clubs are seeing it being shared around with the odd moaner complaining about the other lot.
Is this just another non-story?


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

Am a low handicap player and play with the same. We aren’t moaning about not being able to win without shooting a personal best because that was always the case. 

What has happened though is that most of us are not entering the club comps because under the new system, there is not much point.  We can play a supplementary round whenever we want for handicap purposes and don’t have to pay the club for the privilege of doing so. And we can do it at a time when you can nip round quickly rather than slog it out on a slow Saturday.  Consequently participation has certainly dropped.   I should mention that our club gives zero recognition or nominal prize to the lowest gross in any event other than the club championship - something that I think is very poor indeed.  If the lowest gross was recognised in some way, we would all enter everything.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 11, 2021)

Personally I'd be happy if there was a lowest gross in the Ladies Comps. Only one is the club champs.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Am a low handicap player and play with the same. We aren’t moaning about not being able to win without shooting a personal best because that was always the case.

What has happened though is that most of us are not entering the club comps because under the new system, there is not much point.  We can play a supplementary round whenever we want for handicap purposes and don’t have to pay the club for the privilege of doing so. And we can do it at a time when you can nip round quickly rather than slog it out on a slow Saturday.  Consequently participation has certainly dropped.   I should mention that our club gives zero recognition or nominal prize to the lowest gross in any event other than the club championship - something that I think is very poor indeed.  If the lowest gross was recognised in some way, we would all enter everything.
		
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At our club, lowest gross is same value (pro shop credit) as second place for all nett comps. Tell your H&C chairman this would be a way to increase entries and hence comp revenue. We have even considered a second lowest gross, was debated, never came about. But good that it was given consideration.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			My favourite chestnut.

Low h/caps (good players) complaining about not having a chance.
They get told to go and play in scratch opens and leagues.
So they pay their £1000 subs and get told to go and play somewhere else. Brilliant.

Can you imagine someone off 28 joining a club and discovering most comps are scratch. He has no chance of winning but gets told to go and play somewhere else because they have nett comps. He has no chance of winning because he's not very good at golf.

The low h/cap guy has no chance of winning because he is a good player.

I'm a big fan of the h/cap system when it works because it allows different standards of golfer to compete on a level playing field. Sadly it doesn't always work and when good players turn up for the monthly medal and pay their entrance money, knowing that they have no chance of winning, it's a sad state of affairs, especially when they get told the solution is to go and play somewhere else.
Golf, the only sport that penalises you for being a good player
		
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I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jun 11, 2021)

IanM said:



			I think that group have a huge deviation on their range if scores, so if they have a good day, sky's the limit.

My 19 handicap buddy has broken 80, but he also struggles to break 100 when he's having a mare.
		
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Not only numbers of players in that category and higher deviation of scores, but I'd probably expect these to be most impacted by Covid. Clearly enjoy game to a reasonable standard, may now be playing more rounds and practice in first half of the year as other things were closed and perhaps unaware they can card social rounds under WHS. If any handicap range is most likely to have improved then it feels like it's these players.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

IanM said:



			I think that group have a huge deviation on their range if scores, so if they have a good day, sky's the limit.

My 19 handicap buddy has broken 80, but he also struggles to break 100 when he's having a mare.
		
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I also think this group of players has a good number of very good golfers who’s cap has gone up due to various reasons injury/ illness etc .
One told me he’s not trying to get down anymore as he’s enjoying his golf more .
I could be very dangerous off a double digit cap.


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## RichA (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.
		
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At which point every comp is won by each club's handful of scratch golfers, everyone else stops entering and forms their own groups with some kind of level playing field.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Tricky Trev ( hcap 15) me PP was runner up on captains day with 43 points to a guy who shot 44 playing off 27. There was a few grumbles but not from Trev. Anyway I pointed out that I won it around 2013 playing off 27 so nowts new.
When I could get a word in, I did say it probably has not helped that the WHS started when we were in the Covid and a lot of non golfers joined with high handicaps.
Another thing he was moaning about and I only half herd it. He was saying that England golf is asking that visitors from other clubs be allowed to play in board comps. I could of got that bit wrong, but it was something along those lines that brought him onto the “ cheating” bit.
		
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Can’t see any club letting visitors in the board comps!!
Just about enough tee times for the members at mine.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The low guys think so.

And in truth they could point at such as I.  Come the Club Champs in September I can see myself playing off a CH of 12 or even 13 due to the way WHS is working for me, when last year in club champs I was off 8 and did a first round knock of net two under.  Do the same this year off PH of 12 and I’ll be net 6 under.  I know I am well capable of doing it, and indeed I think my golf is basically better a bit better than it was last year.
		
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I always thought the Club Championship was scratch.
So the best golfer in the club that day was champ, not the best handicap golfer.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 11, 2021)

RichA said:



			At which point every comp is won by each club's handful of scratch golfers, everyone else stops entering and forms their own groups with some kind of level playing field.
		
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I really don't think that would happen as that would imply participation is only about winning - which it isn't and most other amateur sports prove that.


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## RichA (Jun 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I always thought the Club Championship was scratch.
So the best golfer in the club that day was champ, not the best handicap golfer.
		
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Both at ours. Lowest gross score is overall champ. Best stableford is handicap champ. Everybody happy!


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## IanM (Jun 11, 2021)

No need to scrap the handicap system...

- All standard comps at our place are in divisions. 
- All majors are scratch, with handicap prizes alongside
- There's scratch knockouts and handicap knockouts
- We have (several) scratch teams and further handicap based teams, plus seniors and juniors


Handicapping isn't perfect, WHS (I am told) is statistically better than it's predecessor, but we all know that the top end of the game is played without it. 

Handicap should be used to measure our competence, and allow competition, and not be a vehicle for winning holidays in Portugal.


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## RichA (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I really don't think that would happen as that would imply participation is only about winning - which it isn't and most other amateur sports prove that.
		
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It is absolutely not all about winning, but why would I donate a couple of quid a week, every week, to the same 2 or 3 people when I have absolutely no chance of winning?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

RichA said:



			At which point every comp is won by each club's handful of scratch golfers, everyone else stops entering and forms their own groups with some kind of level playing field.
		
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Yes the presentation night would be sparse.
Our +4 would win everything.

I think divisions need to be introduced ( ours dosnt) as a +4 cap plays a very different game to a 54 cap.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

IanM said:



			No need to scrap the handicap system...

- All standard comps at our place are in divisions.
- All majors are scratch, with handicap prizes alongside
- There's scratch knockouts and handicap knockouts
- We have (several) scratch teams and further handicap based teams, plus seniors and juniors


Handicapping isn't perfect, WHS (I am told) is statistically better to it's predecessor, but we all know that the top end of the game is played without it.

Handicap should be used to measure our competence, and allow competition, and not be a vehicle for winning holidays in Portugal.
		
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I think your last sentence just about sums it up.
To many opens have prizes with big money value.
That just encourages manipulation of caps and downright cheating.
A small crystal momento and £50 is enough imo.


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## IanM (Jun 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes the presentation night would be sparse.
Our +4 would win everything.

I think divisions need to be introduced ( ours dosnt) as a +4 cap plays a very different game to a 54 cap.
		
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That made me smile.  If I played at a club where handing over the entre fee was completely pointless, I wouldn't.  But of course you and your mates can have your own game and ask for the cards to count for handicap!


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.
		
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I couldn't disagree more. There's not another sport where the handicap system works so well. Where else can a 70 year old give a 20 year old a good match? How many other sports allow you to measure your progress so accurately? The problem is the players with unrealistic handicaps, especially unrealistically high, which is why I think board competitions should be restricted to people whose handicaps have "settled down" 

As for low handicappers not having a chance, there should possibly be more scratch competitions - where the likes of the majority of us will have no chance. 

Competition golf is fun & to scrap it would be a backward step, not that there's the remotest chance of it happening.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2021)

just had a look at our last 10 comps, the handicaps of the winners were as follows - 

16, 14, 10, 1, 5, 11, 5, 11, 15, 9

winning scores in stableford comps were 40, 41, 38, 38, 39, 41, 41
in strokeplay comps it was nett 65, 65, 67

so 3 Cat 1 winners, 4 Cat 2, 3 Cat 3 and 0 Cat 4. (Slope rating is 139)

Not the most in depth or scientific survey, but does suggest to me that Cat 1 golfers have got nothing to complain about (at least at our place).


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## Rlburnside (Jun 11, 2021)

IanM said:



			No need to scrap the handicap system... 

 - All standard comps at our place are in divisions.  
 - All majors are scratch, with handicap prizes alongside
 - There's scratch knockouts and handicap knockouts
 - We have (several) scratch teams and further handicap based teams, plus seniors and 

Handicapping isn't perfect, WHS (I am told) is statistically better to it's predecessor, but we all know that the top end of the game is played without it.  

Handicap should be used to measure our competence, and allow competition, and not be a vehicle for winning holidays in Portugal.
		
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This is the way to go 👍 All our board competitions the big prize is for scratch and rightly so along side the prize for h/c , fair and no need for any moaning. 

Our monthly medals are best net for all golfers which I have always felt unfair to the low guys as they seldom win at ours, I’ve suggested we have 2 prizes for medals as well, one for best gross and one for best net but wasn’t sanctioned.


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## IanM (Jun 11, 2021)

Given this thread, what I really want to know is, was "ClubChamp98," scratch or net champ??


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## AmandaJR (Jun 11, 2021)

I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder. 

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

IanM said:



			Given this thread, what I really want to know is, was "ClubChamp98," scratch or net champ??  

Click to expand...

Scratch .
36 holes .


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I couldn't disagree more. There's not another sport where the handicap system works so well. Where else can a 70 year old give a 20 year old a good match? How many other sports allow you to measure your progress so accurately? The problem is the players with unrealistic handicaps, especially unrealistically high, which is why I think board competitions should be restricted to people whose handicaps have "settled down"

As for low handicappers not having a chance, there should possibly be more scratch competitions - where the likes of the majority of us will have no chance.

Competition golf is fun & to scrap it would be a backward step, not that there's the remotest chance of it happening.
		
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Snooker!


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm bored less about board comp whingeing. I'll be playing in all ours and I'm HI 3.4 at the moment. Each to their own.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.
		
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That is a daft idea why would anybody pay a fee for a competition with zero chance of winning, it would never work and clubs would loose revenue. 

All that needs to happen is for all competitions to have a best gross prize and h/c prize and have divisions. 

Would this not be better? and keep you proper golfers happy 👍 

I’ve been playing for over 30 years and much as I try I can’t get any better 😂


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## IanM (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.
		
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I agree with you, but golf does this in some events and not in others.  If clubs don't get the application of this right, it does lead to issues like discussed here.

I won the "net" prize in the club champs once...but I would never say I won the club champs.   I had a net 68 off 12... but the winner had 69 gross, which is better than an 80 in anyone's maths.


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			At our club, lowest gross is same value (pro shop credit) as second place for all nett comps. Tell your H&C chairman this would be a way to increase entries and hence comp revenue. We have even considered a second lowest gross, was debated, never came about. But good that it was given consideration.
		
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I’ve written to the comps committee three times on the subject and got a woolly reply on one occasion. I’ve been a member of five golf clubs and this is the only one where the lowest gross is entirely ignored.  It’s ridiculous really.


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I couldn't disagree more. There's not another sport where the handicap system works so well. Where else can a 70 year old give a 20 year old a good match? How many other sports allow you to measure your progress so accurately? The problem is the players with unrealistic handicaps, especially unrealistically high, which is why I think board competitions should be restricted to people whose handicaps have "settled down"

As for low handicappers not having a chance, there should possibly be more scratch competitions - where the likes of the majority of us will have no chance.

Competition golf is fun & to scrap it would be a backward step, not that there's the remotest chance of it happening.
		
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Without wishing to be too pedantic, real tennis has a brilliant handicapping system and would allow a club player to have a decent game with the world number one.


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## Pants (Jun 11, 2021)

Many sports have a handicap system - some on an informal basis for internal competitions e.g. Tennis, Squash; others like archery on a national basis.  I'm led to believe that horse racing has a h/c system for some races.


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## RichA (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.
		
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In decades of playing cricket and football, winning was always relevant and I always wanted to achieve personal bests. It was always competitive. It wasn't always fun or particularly recreational. 
Playing golf, my recreation is now fun, win or lose. The handicap system gives us all a glimmer of hope that we might win today. It's golf's unique charm. We all tee off the 1st hoping to achieve a personal best, don't we?
I'm 50 and can no longer safely compete at football or cricket with folks half my age. Please don't take the opportunity to compete at golf at a local, friendly, amateur level away from people like me. 
Surely, there are plenty of district, county or club v club comps for the better golfers?


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## jim8flog (Jun 11, 2021)

One the things we have in every competition is a prize for best gross so the low handicappers always have something to compete for.

When it comes to trophies where the winner is best nett it will, in the main, always favour a player with a handicap that is reasonably higher than scratch and thus it has always been, although as a a 6 handicap I once shot 2 under and was between to the trophy by a 3 handicapper by one shot.


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

I think there is a place for handicaps and nett comps.  But I do think that no-one with a gents handicap of more than 24 (I’d prefer 18 actually) should be allowed to win anything. Not sure about ladies - 36 maybe?   The reason being that nobody should be being rewarded for playing the game at that level - it is a really poor standard of play.   By all means participate but don’t expect prizes until you can at least break 90.  I’m seeing more and more golfers that are new to the game that think their high handicap is fine because they can finish in the top ten. It’s taking away the drive and desire to improve with some people I think. A shame really.  They need some tough love - 24 handicap is a really bad golfer. Apologies if the truth hurts anyone reading this!!


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I’ve written to the comps committee three times on the subject and got a woolly reply on one occasion. I’ve been a member of five golf clubs and this is the only one where the lowest gross is entirely ignored.  It’s ridiculous really.
		
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Table it for an AGM and prepare a speech to advocate. Research what other clubs in your area do (you already know it appears). If you lose the vote, you will have a better idea of what you are up against, at least. Quite wrong that a small committee should have complete power. Challenge that power - it is the only way.
I've realised that the way a lot of members get something done, is to get their best mates to get on to the committees. None of my mates would ever do such a thing, I'm proud to say.


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## jim8flog (Jun 11, 2021)

RichA said:



			In a field of 50 handicapped golfers, any individual should have a 1 in 50 chance of winning, based on their performance that day, but regardless of their HI.
Surely it's only suspicious or flawed if *the same* individual keeps winning and their HI doesn't change.
The anecdotal evidence on here suggests that most clubs are seeing it being shared around with the odd moaner complaining about the other lot.
Is this just another non-story?
		
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 We have one player who so far has won 3 comps since coming back after lockdown. He is a long term player with plenty of scores on his record. Having checked his record to see if a review was in order I noted that those wins have reduced his H.I. by nearly 4 shots so no review necessary.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I think there is a place for handicaps and nett comps.  But I do think that no-one with a gents handicap of more than 24 (I’d prefer 18 actually) should be allowed to win anything. Not sure about ladies - 36 maybe?   The reason being that nobody should be being rewarded for playing the game at that level - it is a really poor standard of play.   By all means participate but don’t expect prizes until you can at least break 90.  I’m seeing more and more golfers that are new to the game that think their high handicap is fine because they can finish in the top ten. It’s taking away the drive and desire to improve with some people I think. A shame really.  They need some tough love - 24 handicap is a really bad golfer. Apologies if the truth hurts anyone reading this!!
		
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At our club, board comps max playing handicap of 24. Higher handicaps may enter, but strokes received will be 24 for the prizes. Been like this for several years and they haven't changed it.


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## Sats (Jun 11, 2021)

To be honest they are low for a reason and if they are hitting form then there should be no reason why they can't compete. Likewise with high handicappers can have a purple patch and win stuff. 

I'm off 11.6 atm and would love to be low and play at that level. Spoiler alert I've not won a board comp either and it's not diminished my love for the game or has any bearing on entering them.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.
		
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I agree. But it will never happen, as I've been informed by my mates when we've discussed this. Of course, I know that, but we can still discuss.
My view is that it would be interesting to compete in Divisions, similar to football.  ( I know that some clubs have divisions within the present system).
If , say, you are in Div2 ( former h.cap 10-18), you would play all on the same level. You could have promoted and relegated each year?
I know that there is a difference between 10 and 18, or between scratch and 10
But so there is in premier league football between Top 4 and newly promoted from Chzmpionship. - if you get my drift.
And, there, occasionally, the bottom beats the top some Saturdays.

As I say, it won't happen. The present system will remain. 
I take BB's point re his friend, but h caps of 54 have got ridiculous. I think 24 should be the limit, for club comps.-by that anyone over 24 would compete at 24 in Club comps. If rollups want to give full handicaps, so be it.
One of those dilemmas where both points of view have merit.😀


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.
		
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The first part I agree with - I’m always just looking to play my best and lower my handicap - winning is nice but not the reason I play. When I play in Club champs and the scratch KO then I want to win it.

But removing the handicap system for me removes one of the best forms of the game - the fourball Matchplay we all play as side games , the singles KO etc , swindles etc


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## jim8flog (Jun 11, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I think there is a place for handicaps and nett comps.  But I do think that no-one with a gents handicap of more than 24 (I’d prefer 18 actually) should be allowed to win anything. Not sure about ladies - 36 maybe?   The reason being that nobody should be being rewarded for playing the game at that level - it is a really poor standard of play.   By all means participate but don’t expect prizes until you can at least break 90.  I’m seeing more and more golfers that are new to the game that think their high handicap is fine because they can finish in the top ten. It’s taking away the drive and desire to improve with some people I think. A shame really.  They need some tough love - 24 handicap is a really bad golfer. Apologies if the truth hurts anyone reading this!!
		
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 I have played golf for over 40 years including over 30 at the same club.  I have watched a great many friends slowly decline in their ability with age (me included) and under your system a great many of them would no longer be permitted to play in comps. 

When we set a limit Handicap limit entry to our Opens which excluded a lot of these players there was such an outcry that we relented*. They had supported the opens for years despite knowing their chances of winning was very low.

* We now have a restriction to Course Handicap for the comp but do not restrict those with a higher handicap from entering.


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## Neilds (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.
		
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I’m with you on most of this. In the comp tomorrow I will try my best to beat my handicap and hopefully win in our side bet but I am under no illusions that I will win overall. Happy to get out and play, enjoy the course and the company and anything above that is a bonus.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I really don't think that would happen as that would imply participation is only about winning - which it isn't and most other amateur sports prove that.
		
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I'm sorry, Amanda, - it would.😀 As Rich says, other groups would form where a chance of winning was available.
There is no way where I would ever, ever win a game of golf against a 3 h.cap playing level- ever.!.  I'd go round with him, readily ,in a friendly game , of course.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.
		
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There are some major differences, the sports you have mentioned are endurance events, a lot of people will enter as a test of character or a fitness challenge, saying that though, many of those events will have categories for people to be ranked in. You will have women under 30, over 30, seniors etc. So you could come 50th overall but be the fastest over 60, so you are categorised in a way that allows you to compete on a level playing field.

Other sports like cricket, rugby, football etc you will find people of similar abilities playing with and against each other, you don't have fat Joe from the Sunday league turning out for Manchester United during the week. If you got rid of handicaps this is what would happen to golf, people would play competitions based on their general ability, it would be no fun turning up each week and getting smashed by someone the equivalent of 4 leagues higher than you in rugby


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think your last sentence just about sums it up.
To many opens have prizes with big money value.
That just encourages manipulation of caps and downright cheating.
A small crystal momento and £50 is enough imo.
		
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Agree, except last sentence.
No, a shield or Cup is enough. 😀Just the honour of winning. As I understand most Opens, the entrance money gives a good day - very good course, good meal etc. No need for high value prizes.


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## Slab (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. *Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets*. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.
		
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Weird, I would've thought the opposite was true and that in _every sport_ the better you get the tougher it gets

If I win at mini go-carts I move up a class size and its immediately tougher, all the way up to F1. Same with boxing (or any other sport) if i win at local club I might move to county level etc etc and it'll _always _be tougher the better i get.
Same for golf if i win xyz comp I might move to abc regional/national all the way to the Pro tours, its tougher every single time i get better and every team sport too, footie team A are in div 7 and get better and every season its tougher as they move up the leagues. *Every sport is tougher the better you get...* that is unless you carry on swimming in the same pond as happens with majority of golf club comps

As we all know, what's different with club golf is that for many players as they get better and better and better... they still play against the same level of opponents year after year after year, by entering into a regular club comp they don't move up to a better standard of opponent and it will be a walkover time after time.
It is this very scenario that demands something like a handicap system is used to make running mixed ability golf comps worthwhile for the membership in order to be inclusive and get as many members as possible playing.
Without it you have a golfer/boxer (or any sport) who's capable of wiping the floor with their opponent 10 times out of 10... the poorer ability boxer is gonna stop getting in the ring & the better guy is barely gonna get a workout and there's zero competitive edge to the contest

The handicap system means that amateur golf is actually in alignment with _every other sport_  & players will face a tougher challenge no matter how much better they get, otherwise what's the point of golf club running regular comps for either type of player?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Personally I'd be happy if there was a lowest gross in the Ladies Comps. Only one is the club champs.
		
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I’d like a prize for lowest gross for each nine 😍 Last two medal comps I was gross one and two over for our front nine, then fate intervened (in the form of the Lucy Lockets).  But I‘ll admit to being a little facetious about that 😀


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I always thought the Club Championship was scratch.
So the best golfer in the club that day was champ, not the best handicap golfer.
		
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We have Club Championships for scratch and handicap.  The club champion is winner of the scratch.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

RichA said:



			In decades of playing cricket and football, winning was always relevant and I always wanted to achieve personal bests. It was always competitive. It wasn't always fun or particularly recreational.
Playing golf, my recreation is now fun, win or lose. The handicap system gives us all a glimmer of hope that we might win today. It's golf's unique charm.* We all tee off the 1st hoping to achieve a personal best, don't we?*
I'm 50 and can no longer safely compete at football or cricket with folks half my age. Please don't take the opportunity to compete at golf at a local, friendly, amateur level away from people like me.
Surely, there are plenty of district, county or club v club comps for the better golfers?
		
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Not when I am playing a match, then I play to win the match and my score becomes irrelevant.


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## peld (Jun 11, 2021)

if i look at our strokeplay Medals so far in 2021 (wont get started on the stablefords!), in 5 comps, there have only been 4 single figures guys in the top 3 (3 of which incidentally all on the same day, so in 4 comps there was one single figure guy in top 3). Also take in to account our strokeplay comps are on our championship course which is almost 7,000 yards long, so it puts off some of the higher handicappers too. 

Our shorter course just has stablefords, these are winning handicaps so far in 2021 - 23,20,10,11,27,23,22,23,13,19,22,22,17 (the 10&11 was the same guy)


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I have played golf for over 40 years including over 30 at the same club.  I have watched a great many friends slowly decline in their ability with age (me included) and under your system a great many of them would no longer be permitted to play in comps.

When we set a limit Handicap limit entry to our Opens which excluded a lot of these players there was such an outcry that we relented*. They had supported the opens for years despite knowing their chances of winning was very low.

* We now have a restriction to Course Handicap for the comp but do not restrict those with a higher handicap from entering.
		
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Apologies if I wan't clear - I said by all means participate but whatever your handicap is, on the date of a comp, it reduces to 24 because this would be the maximum allowance for the event. 

A more draconian view would be the stance that Sunningdale take with visitors which is without an official handicap of 22 or less, you are not allowed on the course.  I completely agree with this. Doesn't apply to club members of course.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have Club Championships for scratch and handicap.  The club champion is winner of the scratch.
		
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My old club had the same. Both played in the same comp on the same day, but get your name on the board. 

One year I shot the lowest gross playing off 5. Which also got me the lowest nett. 

The prizes for lowest gross were better then lowest nett. 

Had a really interesting conversation with the captain about it. He told me in the club rules I wasn't eligible to win both. Fair enough. I'll take the lowest gross. Then he tried to tell me I wasn't eligible for that and I had to take the lowest nett prize. I asked to see where it was written in the club or comp rules. Of course it wasn't. Neither was the rule about being able to only win one of the prizes.

The truth was that one of our + HC members and a friend of the captain was second lowest gross on the day and he wanted him to be the scratch champ for that year.

I dug my heals in and gladly accepted the honour of being scratch champ and having my name on the board that year.

It left a rather bitter tast though.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 11, 2021)

The entire point of a handicap system is to give equal chace to all competitors.  So as soon as you enter you should know it's basically a raffle.

If your main purpose of entering a handicap comp is victory, then you've totally misunderstood the spirit in which its supposed to be played.

For anyone who thinks their hard work and talent are under appreciated, there are loads of scratch comps, normally 36 holes, normally well organised, great value, and on above average courses.  Hilariously, most Cat 1 golfers wont enter, because they are usually won by a select few talented types.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			If your main purpose of entering a handicap comp is victory, then you've totally misunderstood the spirit in which its supposed to be played.
		
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Sorry, but what is the spirit in which a comp should be played if not to try and win?


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## peld (Jun 11, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			The entire point of a handicap system is to give equal chace to all competitors.  So as soon as you enter you should know it's basically a raffle.
.
		
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isnt the entire point of this thread though that it doesnt seem to be working out equal to all competitors?  evidence certainly suggests the new WHS system is favouring high handicaps for competitions


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

Pants said:



			Many sports have a handicap system - some on an informal basis for internal competitions e.g. Tennis, Squash; others like archery on a national basis.  I'm led to believe that horse racing has a h/c system for some races.
		
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if golf handicapping was done on the basis horse racing handicapping is this topic would be 100+ pages long lol


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 11, 2021)

Pants said:



			Many sports have a handicap system - some on an informal basis for internal competitions e.g. Tennis, Squash; others like archery on a national basis.  I'm led to believe that horse racing has a h/c system for some races.
		
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I have experience of handicap tennis. Once had a 40 love per game start & my opponent wiped the floor with me.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			My old club had the same. Both played in the same comp on the same day, but get your name on the board. 

One year I shot the lowest gross playing off 5. Which also got me the lowest nett. 

The prizes for lowest gross were better then lowest nett. 

Had a really interesting conversation with the captain about it. He told me in the club rules I wasn't eligible to win both. Fair enough. I'll take the lowest gross. Then he tried to tell me I wasn't eligible for that and I had to take the lowest nett prize. I asked to see where it was written in the club or comp rules. Of course it wasn't. Neither was the rule about being able to only win one of the prizes.

The truth was that one of our + HC members and a friend of the captain was second lowest gross on the day and he wanted him to be the scratch champ for that year.

I dug my heals in and gladly accepted the honour of being scratch champ and having my name on the board that year.

It left a rather bitter tast though.
		
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this doesnt make sense?

you shot the lowest score but didnt win the gross?


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## sweaty sock (Jun 11, 2021)

To perform your best...

What evidence?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			this doesnt make sense?

you shot the lowest score but didnt win the gross?
		
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They tried to get me to take the lowest net so they could give the lowest gross to one of the scratch guys. 

I said no.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 11, 2021)

peld said:



			isnt the entire point of this thread though that it doesnt seem to be working out equal to all competitors?  evidence certainly suggests the new WHS system is favouring high handicaps for competitions
		
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is there evidence? some anecodtal evidence from some clubs in favour of that hypothesis some against 

in my own anecdotal evidence nothing much has changed. lower handicaps very rarely win handicap competitions, especially stableford. Low handicaps are far more consistent and so their range of possible scores is small maybe 2/3 shots either side of their handicap, whereas a 28 handicap has a potential 10 shot +/- range. If the field is large then the chances of a high handicap having "one of those days" is high. But this was the case under CONGU as well.

Where a low handicap will do well is obviously scratch comps i.e. club championships, match play, and order of merit where their consistency pays off. My old club's club championships also had a scratch and handicap champion, no reason why other board comps coulnd't adopt thismodel


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## Rlburnside (Jun 11, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I’m with you on most of this. In the comp tomorrow I will try my best to beat my handicap and hopefully win in our side bet but I am under no illusions that I will win overall. Happy to get out and play, enjoy the course and the company and anything above that is a bonus.
		
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If more players pressed their committees for best gross and h/c prizes you would maybe feel better about your chances of winning.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			They tried to get me to take the lowest net so they could give the lowest gross to one of the scratch guys. 

I said no.
		
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on what basis lol whoever shoots the lowest score wins!!!!


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			on what basis lol whoever shoots the lowest score wins!!!!
		
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Exactly. They clearly didn't want some chopper off 5 winning the main event.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Exactly. They clearly didn't want some chopper off 5 winning the main event.
		
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Think Id have asked who WE were playing in the next inter club scratch match very loudly in the bar haha


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## Crow (Jun 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.
		
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I imagine it goes back to the days when almost all golf was match play, one player against another.

In a triathlon or road race field you can compare yourself to everyone and get a sense of achievement, in match play you can only compare yourself against your opponent.

Would you be interested in running a race comprising only you and a top triathlete? I'd just end up feeling totally inadequate.
It would be no fun for either party and the same goes for golf in match play. 
Handicapping came in to make a competition for both parties even when the ability was vastly different. 
That mindset has been carried forward to most forms of play in golf and I think it works very well.


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## nickjdavis (Jun 11, 2021)

Just been through our last 7 comps held this summer and looking at the folks who finished in the top three of each comp.

WHS Playing Handicaps of players finishing in the top 3 varied from 7 to 29 (our current lowest indexed golfer is 3.9 and we have about 25 single figure golfers)....the average WHS PH of these players was 18.4....the average CONGU playing handicap of these same players last October was 17.7. So its not as though the WHS has resulted in a huge hike in handicaps across the board compared to folks old CONGU handicaps (in fact when we transitioned I remember doing a comparison and found that something like 50% of players had indexes within 1 stroke of their old Congu handicap, 30% had lower indexes and 20% higher.....when you factor in slope to get a CH and then a PH I'd say that WHS playing handicaps were perhaps typically 1 shot higher than players old Congu handicaps).

If you look at the results from competitions played over a similar time period last year, the average CONGU playing handicap of players finishing in the top 3 was 19.7....so last years comps top three places were being filled by players with higher handicaps than this years.

At the end of the day, 1 shot here and there (and that pretty much seems to be the difference that WHS has made) isn't going to suddenly turn higher handicappers into world beaters. It may well be more of the case that lockdown has attracted more players to the sport....these will invariably be new players who will naturally have higher handicaps and assuming that any handicapping system makes it equally likely for anyone to win then you expect the winners enclosure to be filled with players with handicaps that directly correlate to the number of entries with those handicaps....the higher proportion of higher handicaps entering will naturally mean a higher proportion of them end up in the prizes.

I don't see any statistical evidence that low handicappers are being disadvantaged by the WHS at my own club and I've never seen anyone produce any hard evidence to support such claims from other clubs. That's not to say it doesn't exist...just that no-one has produced it to back up such claims of unfairness.


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## nickjdavis (Jun 11, 2021)

peld said:



			isnt the entire point of this thread though that it doesnt seem to be working out equal to all competitors?  evidence certainly suggests the new WHS system is favouring high handicaps for competitions
		
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what evidence?


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## rksquire (Jun 11, 2021)

Low handicappers rarely 'win' at our place, they do take the prize for best gross virtually all the time - prizes are equal, we've seen an uplift in comp entries.

In terms of wins, the highest handicap was high 40s (can't remember exactly, might have been 48) and the lowest was 12 (great round, net 64).  The only complaints we've had is that high handicappers are coming in with huge stableford scores but we've been told their handicaps will rapidly adjust to more fairly reflect ability but sounds like it'll take a few months.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I think there is a place for handicaps and nett comps.  But I do think that no-one with a gents handicap of more than 24 (I’d prefer 18 actually) should be allowed to win anything. Not sure about ladies - 36 maybe?   The reason being that nobody should be being rewarded for playing the game at that level - it is a really poor standard of play.   By all means participate but don’t expect prizes until you can at least break 90.  I’m seeing more and more golfers that are new to the game that think their high handicap is fine because they can finish in the top ten. It’s taking away the drive and desire to improve with some people I think. A shame really.  They need some tough love - 24 handicap is a really bad golfer. Apologies if the truth hurts anyone reading this!!
		
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Bandits (Cheats!) aside, this goes completely against the fundamental tenets of the game of golf. Appropriate handicapping has been a part of Golf since HCEG played on Leith Links!
However, that shouldn't prevent handicap limits being placed on entry to selected Club competitions - like so called 'Board' ones. Similarly, Divisions generally eliminate the abberations that can result from improvements, or just 'miracle rounds, by high-cappers that low-cappers simply cannot match.
Low cappers have ALWAYS struggled to win handicap competitions - though Cat 1s were almost always close to the top! WHS hasn't changed that!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm torn on this 

Originally the main reason for me to enter comps was to get a lower handicap.. as it was the best way to get a card in..

I've won a couple on the way 

However now I got the golf England app we put in every round so my total just got to 17 cards .. so close to the magical 20

Now I'm not overly fussed if I make the comps or not .. yeah it's nice to win but I just want to be  the lowest I can be


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## Bdill93 (Jun 11, 2021)

If the scratch guy isnt competing as hes not shooting close enough/ beating his handicap 8/20, he will see a rise in his HI soon anyway - so he wont have much to moan about soon! You wont win a comp at my place unless you're beating you handicap, and if you do, then fair play to you - great round! 

Beauty of WHS!

Why moan when you can just submit every score you play, gradually rise and gain a few shots and therefore compete again!


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## Billysboots (Jun 11, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			All our board competitions the big prize is for scratch and rightly so
		
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Why is that right? That pretty much prevents anyone with a double digit handicap from ever getting their name on an honours board.

There surely needs to be some balance here. I absolutely agree there is a place for  some board events to be awarded to the best scratch score - club championship being the obvious example. But getting your name on a board in the clubhouse should be within the grasp of everyone, not the preserve of those who either have a God given talent for this infuriating game, or those who can afford the hours required to get to low single figures.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			is there evidence? some anecodtal evidence from some clubs in favour of that hypothesis some against

in my own anecdotal evidence nothing much has changed. lower handicaps very rarely win handicap competitions, especially stableford. *Low handicaps are far more consistent and so their range of possible scores is small maybe 2/3 shots either side of their handicap,* whereas a 28 handicap has a potential 10 shot +/- range. If the field is large then the chances of a high handicap having "one of those days" is high. But this was the case under CONGU as well.

Where a low handicap will do well is obviously scratch comps i.e. club championships, match play, and order of merit where their consistency pays off. My old club's club championships also had a scratch and handicap champion, no reason why other board comps coulnd't adopt thismodel
		
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My last 10 scores from the start of May. Course is 70.8/132 and my current HI is 3.4
72, 80, 86, 84, 78, 77(PCC +1), 79(PCC +2), 78, 72, 76.
So my range of scores either side of my handicap is -2.4 to +11.
What group of players am I recognisably *far more consistent* than?
I would say none.
It is hard for me to shoot 7 below my handicap, but that has been true for me since 1977 when I first got to 5, so I accept it as a fact of life.
I had my day in 1977 with 69-8=61. And a few more good days since. I do not whinge about anyone having their day off whatever handicap.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			My last 10 scores from the start of May. Course is 70.8/132 and my current HI is 3.4
72, 80, 86, 84, 78, 77(PCC +1), 79(PCC +2), 78, 72, 76.
So my range of scores either side of my handicap is -2.4 to +11.
What group of players am I recognisably *far more consistent* than?
I would say none.
It is hard for me to shoot 7 below my handicap, but that has been true for me since 1977 when I first got to 5, so I accept it as a fact of life.
I had my day in 1977 with 69-8=61. And a few more good days since. I do not whinge about anyone having their day off whatever handicap.
		
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Take out the 2 (or maybe 3) 'bad' ones - likely down to returning after Covid interruption - and it seems to me you _have_ been pretty consistent! What were the 10 scores *before *Covid? Looking at those numbers, I'd suggest it's likely 6 were between 71 and 77 - though maybe a 'really low one' in there.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			My last 10 scores from the start of May. Course is 70.8/132 and my current HI is 3.4
72, 80, 86, 84, 78, 77(PCC +1), 79(PCC +2), 78, 72, 76.
So my range of scores either side of my handicap is -2.4 to +11.
What group of players am I recognisably *far more consistent* than?
I would say none.
It is hard for me to shoot 7 below my handicap, but that has been true for me since 1977 when I first got to 5, so I accept it as a fact of life.
I had my day in 1977 with 69-8=61. And a few more good days since. I do not whinge about anyone having their day off whatever handicap.
		
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Whats your course handicap out of curiosity?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Agree, except last sentence.
No, a shield or Cup is enough. 😀Just the honour of winning. As I understand most Opens, the entrance money gives a good day - very good course, good meal etc. No need for high value prizes.
		
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I think the £50 would cover your fees petrol etc so a great day out for free. Winner only.
It might reduce the entrance fees if stupid prizes were not on offer imo.

My wife told me years ago , no more cups and shields!
A small piece of crystal was acceptable.

I know a guy who buys a £20 M&S voucher when he plays an open , he tells his wife he won it and buy herself something nice.
Happy wife happy golfer, !


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## Lump (Jun 11, 2021)

I somewhat agree with the OP’s member.
Okay it wasn’t a major, but on Wednesday a + figure golfer at the club shot a -7 round…..he came 3rd in the Medal. Beaten by a 12hcp shooting a 79 to his 65.
Tough school even for a plus guy


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Whats your course handicap out of curiosity?
		
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3.4 x 132/113


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## pendodave (Jun 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Why is that right? That pretty much prevents anyone with a double digit handicap from ever getting their name on an honours board.

There surely needs to be some balance here. I absolutely agree there is a place for  some board events to be awarded to the best scratch score - club championship being the obvious example. But getting your name on a board in the clubhouse should be within the grasp of everyone, not the preserve of those who either have a God given talent for this infuriating game, or those who can afford the hours required to get to low single figures.
		
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Not quite sure why grown adults who aren't very good at something are expecting some sort of recognition for it? I've really never understood this.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			3.4 x 132/113
		
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Or just answer like a normal person.. 4


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I have experience of handicap tennis. Once had a 40 love per game start & my opponent wiped the floor with me.
		
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That’s the problem trying to compare Golf and other sports.
If you are using a shared ball ie tennis his superior skill will trash you.
In Golf only you touch your ball so his skill can’t impact your game.
Like being snookered.


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## Billysboots (Jun 11, 2021)

pendodave said:



			Not quite sure why grown adults who aren't very good at something are expecting some sort of recognition for it? I've really never understood this.
		
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In which case you are totally missing the point of participating in a handicap sport.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2021)

Lump said:



			I somewhat agree with the OP’s member.
Okay it wasn’t a major, but on Wednesday a + figure golfer at the club shot a -7 round…..he came 3rd in the Medal. Beaten by a 12hcp shooting a 79 to his 65.
Tough school even for a plus guy
	View attachment 37008

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So of the 13 players listed, 7 of them are 5 or Below and 1 is 6.
All pipped by a Cat 2 (old style) who had a great day. As I posted in a previous post, rarely win handicap events but normally very near the top!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

Lump said:



			I somewhat agree with the OP’s member.
Okay it wasn’t a major, but on Wednesday a + figure golfer at the club shot a -7 round…..he came 3rd in the Medal. Beaten by a 12hcp shooting a 79 to his 65.
Tough school even for a plus guy
	View attachment 37008

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Your not wrong tough school.
He must be used to that now though off that cap.
If I shot 65 gross and came third I would cry!


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## pendodave (Jun 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			In which case you are totally missing the point of participating in a handicap sport.
		
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Fair enough.
I guess i view it as a necessary contrivence to facilitate mixed ability events. But thinking it should be recognised in gold paint... not so much.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Take out the 2 (or maybe 3) 'bad' ones - likely down to returning after Covid interruption - and it seems to me you _have_ been pretty consistent! What were the 10 scores *before *Covid? Looking at those numbers, I'd suggest it's likely 6 were between 71 and 77 - though maybe a 'really low one' in there.
		
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I suppose, to answer your questions, you need to see this



The -1.5 differential was a weird frosty morning in April 2019, when I shot one under par. Extra 25 yards of roll on my drives and I know how to do things like run the ball onto greens with a six iron from 100 yards.
I would be very interested to know where my consistency lies?


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## Crow (Jun 11, 2021)

If more and more people do migrate away from club competitions then we'll have achieved the aim of WHS in making our golf more like that of America, where club competitions are played once in a blue moon by recreational golfers and most never bother entering one.

Pretty sad really.


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## RichA (Jun 11, 2021)

pendodave said:



			Not quite sure why grown adults who aren't very good at something are expecting some sort of recognition for it? I've really never understood this.
		
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Couldn't care less about recognition. Not even sure if we have an honours board.
What I'm really unsure of is why the "big fish" are bothering with local club comps when there are elite comps they could be entering where they wouldn't be troubled by average club golfers.
Maybe they're not as good as like to think they are.
Maybe it's easier on the ego to lose to someone you can say is worse than you than getting it handed to you off scratch every weekend.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 11, 2021)

Just had a quick look at our captains day results which seems to be the catalyst for this guys gripes.
There was 151 in the comp. now if you relate it to olden days. 55 players finished with 36 points and above.In essence, playing to handicap. If you wanted to take it further, 78 finished with 34 points and above which ? Would/ could of been buffer zone.
The guy who had the moan. Plays off WHS 3.1 which is 5 in the comp. he shot 40 points And finished 10th. However he had 4 one pointers. wipe them out he wins the comp. He has said that for him to win he has to near on shoot a course record. That’s a 65. He needed 69 on the day to win.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

Crow said:



			If more and more people do migrate away from club competitions then we'll have achieved the aim of WHS in making our golf more like that of America, where club competitions are played once in a blue moon by recreational golfers and most never bother entering one.

Pretty sad really.
		
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since when was that an aim of WHS Nick?


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			3.4 x 132/113
		
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Why did you need to ask in the first place when I had given you the figures in my post that you replied to for you to work it out for yourself? No need for us to fall out about it, I hope.

PS: I am not a normal person. So you are correct there.


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## pendodave (Jun 11, 2021)

Crow said:



			If more and more people do migrate away from club competitions then we'll have achieved the aim of WHS in making our golf more like that of America, where club competitions are played once in a blue moon by recreational golfers and most never bother entering one.

Pretty sad really.
		
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Interesting. And i agree, not a direction to be encouraged.
Fwiw, my own club doesn't seem to have too much of an issue with this. Almost all singles comps are flighted 1/2/3, so good players aren't playing against high caps.. Winning score normally high 30s. Hcap committee keeps a weather eye on stuff. Just lucky I guess.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Why is that right? That pretty much prevents anyone with a double digit handicap from ever getting their name on an honours board.

There surely needs to be some balance here. I absolutely agree there is a place for  some board events to be awarded to the best scratch score - club championship being the obvious example. But getting your name on a board in the clubhouse should be within the grasp of everyone, not the preserve of those who either have a God given talent for this infuriating game, or those who can afford the hours required to get to low single figures.
		
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I would think it’s very unlikely that a  double diget golfer would be able to win lowest gross against scratch or low golfers and if they did it would be rare. 

I know you can still get your name on a honors board at some clubs for winning a h/c competition Rabbits for example, my club have no honors board we have prize for best gross and best net and trophys for each.


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## IanM (Jun 11, 2021)

Crow said:



			If more and more people do migrate away from club competitions then we'll have achieved the aim of WHS in making our golf more like that of America, where club competitions are played once in a blue moon by recreational golfers and most never bother entering one.

Pretty sad really.
		
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Agreed if true.  Also, not the experience at my club.  In fact, I think comp entries are up.  Every Saturday is a comp at Newport, and times are always full from 7am to early afternoon..


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

Can we make it to 500 posts in 24 hours? Will that be a record? Will the OP win an award if we do?


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm OK with the low-handicap whingers not playing in club comps. Who needs 'em? The whingers, that is, not the low-handicappers per se.


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## Slab (Jun 11, 2021)

Imagine a club opened a year or two ago with a few hundred members, zero comps & no handicaps, everyone just pays their subs & does their own thing that suits them playing with and against their friends 

Someone suggests the idea of a comp open to all members (no shots given of course as there’s no handicaps) £5 entry fee. It’s a massive success, fun was had by all and one of the pre-comp favourites wins the day, applause all round and rightly so. Its quickly touted as an annual event, no one disagrees and why would they, a fiver for good fun with mates and like-minded others, great craic 

In fact it’s such a hoot no one wants to wait a year so its suggested to make it a biannual thing and a voice shouts why not monthly! & the crowd goes wild. But after a few months the novelty of paying £5 every month on top of subs begins to wears off on all but the winners and a little dissent creeps in about why they’re basically funding new bags & trollies for these fellas... but the club are reveling in the extra business in the bar/food etc and also getting a cut from entry fee and soon its proclaimed to have comps every fortnight while booking all the choice tee times to boot 

And that’s the tipping point. Everyone outside the top table players say ‘£120 a year to watch Tom, Dick and Harry win again! Good for them but screw that for a game of soldiers, let’s leave them to do their thing and we’ll go back to what we used to do and save our dosh for a nice away day’ 
So to secure the income the club talk to the top players for a solution and say to the masses… ‘ok how about this, we’ll give you folks some shots to give you a sniff’ we can’t say fairer than that. The solution is as old as any game
(c’mon as kids who didn’t receive or give a head-start to someone else in xyz race/game when the other fella always won/lost)

Who on this forum would disagree with giving some shots? It’s a perfectly logical solution to a very real problem… everything else is just folks arguing back and forth about how many shots to give each person & there will never be a one size fits all solution


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## Crow (Jun 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			since when was that an aim of WHS Nick?
		
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Since day one.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

Crow said:



			Since day one.
		
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"we'll have achieved the aim of WHS in making our golf more like that of America"

surely the aim was to create a handicap system that should enable golfers anywhere in the world to compete on a level basis?


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## badgergm (Jun 11, 2021)

Slab said:



			Imagine a club opened a year or two ago with a few hundred members, zero comps & no handicaps, everyone just pays their subs & does their own thing that suits them playing with and against their friends

Someone suggests the idea of a comp open to all members (no shots given of course as there’s no handicaps) £5 entry fee. It’s a massive success, fun was had by all and one of the pre-comp favourites wins the day, applause all round and rightly so. Its quickly touted as an annual event, no one disagrees and why would they, a fiver for good fun with mates and like-minded others, great craic

In fact it’s such a hoot no one wants to wait a year so its suggested to make it a biannual thing and a voice shouts why not monthly! & the crowd goes wild. But after a few months the novelty of paying £5 every month on top of subs begins to wears off on all but the winners and a little dissent creeps in about why they’re basically funding new bags & trollies for these fellas... but the club are reveling in the extra business in the bar/food etc and also getting a cut from entry fee and soon its proclaimed to have comps every fortnight while booking all the choice tee times to boot

And that’s the tipping point. Everyone outside the top table players say ‘£120 a year to watch Tom, Dick and Harry win again! Good for them but screw that for a game of soldiers, let’s leave them to do their thing and we’ll go back to what we used to do and save our dosh for a nice away day’
So to secure the income the club talk to the top players for a solution and say to the masses… ‘ok how about this, we’ll give you folks some shots to give you a sniff’ we can’t say fairer than that. The solution is as old as any game
(c’mon as kids who didn’t receive or give a head-start to someone else in xyz race/game when the other fella always won/lost)

Who on this forum would disagree with giving some shots? It’s a perfectly logical solution to a very real problem… everything else is just folks arguing back and forth about how many shots to give each person & there will never be a one size fits all solution
		
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The much simpler answer is handicap divisions. Handicaps are great and all that, but it is too much of a stretch for a 3 handicapper to be in same competition as an improving 33 handicapper who took up the game 9 months ago. They aren't really playing the same game.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I suppose, to answer your questions, you need to see this

View attachment 37009

The -1.5 differential was a weird frosty morning in April 2019, when I shot one under par. Extra 25 yards of roll on my drives and I know how to do things like run the ball onto greens with a six iron from 100 yards.
*I would be very interested to know where my consistency lies?*

Click to expand...

3 to 6 with danger of going really low or blowing out, so your self-analysis of 'inconsistent' is correct. Perhaps you should try to analyse 'Why?'! Too aggressive? Concentration/Focus?


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## r0wly86 (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			My last 10 scores from the start of May. Course is 70.8/132 and my current HI is 3.4
72, 80, 86, 84, 78, 77(PCC +1), 79(PCC +2), 78, 72, 76.
So my range of scores either side of my handicap is -2.4 to +11.
What group of players am I recognisably *far more consistent* than?
I would say none.
It is hard for me to shoot 7 below my handicap, but that has been true for me since 1977 when I first got to 5, so I accept it as a fact of life.
I had my day in 1977 with 69-8=61. And a few more good days since. I do not whinge about anyone having their day off whatever handicap.
		
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great another bit of anecdotal evidence used a reason to dismiss a hypothesis.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			3 to 6 with danger of going really low or blowing out, so your self-analysis of 'inconsistent' is correct. Perhaps you should try to analyse 'Why?'! Too aggressive? Concentration/Focus?
		
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I think its down to how much pain in the lower spine, amount of discomfort and lack of sleep night before, general aches, pains and stiffness and stuff like that. Just glad I can still get out there. The exercise does me good. Now those poor scores do not affect my handicap like they did before so I do not need to worry about my inconsistency. I just go out to beat my 8th best.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			great another bit of anecdotal evidence used a reason to dismiss a hypothesis.
		
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Where did I attempt to dismiss anything? I posed a question and proffered my view to that question. 
My view is that as a low-handicapper I am not recognisably more consistent than a notional higher handicapper. I used my personal data as an example.
Others may have a different view. I am here to see those views expressed. I am amenable to being influenced by those views.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			When it comes to trophies where the winner is best nett it will, in the main, always favour a player with a handicap that is reasonably higher than scratch and thus it has always been,.
		
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Why do you think the 95% was introduced?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			"we'll have achieved the aim of WHS in making our golf more like that of America"

surely the aim was to create a handicap system that should enable golfers anywhere in the world to compete on a level basis?
		
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How many of us have actually played a official comp abroad
There are so many differences between countries


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2021)

peld said:



			if i look at our strokeplay Medals so far in 2021 (wont get started on the stablefords!), in 5 comps, there have only been 4 single figures guys in the top 3 (3 of which incidentally all on the same day, so in 4 comps there was one single figure guy in top 3). Also take in to account our strokeplay comps are on our championship course which is almost 7,000 yards long, so it puts off some of the higher handicappers too.
		
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What proportion of the field was single figure as opposes to 10-20 & 21+ ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

At my place some of the most prestigious board comps are the most historic and long running - and my club is 125yrs old this year.  They were established by or in memory of renowned members who contributed hugely to the development of the club, and bar one they were set up as handicap competitions for all members - and so have never had divisions as the winners are simply the best score to handicap.

Through the many decades they have generally been won at some point by the best golfers in the club during their time of membership even though they are handicap comps, and for us who consider membership of an old and traditional members club as something of worth, having our name on the same historic board or boards as some of our ’greats’ is considered an honour.  And it is these comps especially that the lower handicappers have concerns about their now being effectively shut out from.  It was always difficult for a low guy to win one of these comps, but the best players usually managed to get their name on the board.  Maybe not so easy under WHS, anyway we will see.

Yes of course there are the scratch comps that most handicappers have no way of winning, but that rather missing the point of the concern.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I have experience of handicap tennis. Once had a 40 love per game start & my opponent wiped the floor with me.
		
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I have experience of both tennis & squash handicaps. The big factor is that good players rarely make mistakes or mishits.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2021)

Slab said:



			(c’mon as kids who didn’t receive or give a head-start to someone else in xyz race/game when the other fella always won/lost)
		
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Powderhall Sprint days ?


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## Captainron (Jun 11, 2021)

Anyone who is interested in winnig board comps all the time is a douchebag. 

You want to play as well as possible and have a bit of a giggle is all.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

Tomorrow's comp will be interesting. A board comp for 10-18 playing handicappers only. The rest play in a (not board comp) stableford with pro shop credit prizes. We all mix in with tee times and I will be playing with two chaps who are in the 10-18. It is the non board comp that will be the interesting one, with regards to this thread, with up to 9s and 19s and over. I suspect that the 36 points and over results will be more loaded in proportion by the lower guys. Some might say that it is because they are generally more consistent. If so, was it ever thus? But is the winner more likely to be one of the higher chaps? I have to say, I don't know. Anyone could win, I believe, if they have a good day. If I am beaten into second place by a bloke off 23 who chips in for four points on the 18th, I will not whinge. That's golf.
I'm looking forward to the fresh air and exercise and the chance to lower my handicap by beating that 8th best score. (oh, and the twos sweep, but let's not go there, hush!)


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I think its down to how much pain in the lower spine, amount of discomfort and lack of sleep night before, general aches, pains and stiffness and stuff like that. Just glad I can still get out there. The exercise does me good. Now those poor scores do not affect my handicap like they did before so I do not need to worry about my inconsistency. I just go out to beat my 8th best.
		
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That's still a very impressive handicap for some who 'gave up Commandos about 1974'. Indeed, you are likely an 'exception' to the 'Cat 1s are very consistent' rule because of the above. The oldest low-capper I've actually known was a Senior at my club off 7, having retired from being CEO of a software company that was bought by IBM. He actually spent more work time on the golf course than in the office anyway. His brother was also a handy golfer too, but I don't believe they were the best of friends.


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## davidy233 (Jun 11, 2021)

While I try to play the best i can and if I'm playing in a competition of course I'd be pleased if I won that's not what matters at all, amateur golf is a trivial pastime, as a matter of fact all amateur sport below elite level is just a pastime - a hobby. It doesn't matter.


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## rosecott (Jun 11, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Powderhall Sprint days ?
		
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My father used to manage and train Powderhall Sprint runners.


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## banjofred (Jun 11, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			While I try to play the best i can and if I'm playing in a competition of course I'd be pleased if I won that's not what matters at all, amateur golf is a trivial pastime, as a matter of fact all amateur sport below elite level is just a pastime - a hobby. It doesn't matter.
		
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I'd totally agree with this if I didn't have to pay £6 (or whatever they charge)....for the privilege of just playing another round of golf. Why do they have to charge anything? Why can't you just play golf? Without any money involved?


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, you are likely an 'exception' to the 'Cat 1s are very consistent' rule because of the above. .
		
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I have been a Cat 1 player for 35 years and am currently off 3 and I would respectfully disagree with that being a rule of thumb.   All golfers can have good and bad days.  But if you’re off a low figure it can seem like you’re consistent because to many 79 gross still sounds alright but to me it’s a pretty poor round of golf.  It’s the same as a 10 handicapper dropping 30 shots in percentage terms. 

Loads of cat 1 players fluctuate wildly in terms of scoring.  In my last 20, the scores range from 67 to 83!

Where I would agree though is that + players are very consistent.   There’s about ten of them at our club and none of them ever have a complete mare.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			"we'll have achieved the aim of WHS in making our golf more like that of America"

surely the aim was to create a handicap system that should enable golfers anywhere in the world to compete on a level basis?
		
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I thought that was the purpose, but not so, as I have been informed by those who have given it a lot more study than I have.
I think the main concept of average of best 8 of last 20 appears to be universal, but Handicap Index, Course Handicaps and Playing Handicaps, and how they are calculated, varies around the world. I would be very wary of someone coming to my club from Australia, quoting their GA Index as equivalent to my EG Index and playing in an open, and that could be my dear brother.


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## peld (Jun 11, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Anyone who is interested in winnig board comps all the time is a douchebag.

You want to play as well as possible and have a bit of a giggle is all.
		
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im not fussed about winning a trophy or getting a name on the Board, but what i would like is when i shoot a really good round (e.g. 40 pts for a 13hcp), ive got a chance of winning. On our short course, 40 points rarely makes top3, and have never been a winning score from about 10 comps in 2021 (42 lowest winner)


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## davidy233 (Jun 11, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I'd totally agree with this if I didn't have to pay £6 (or whatever they charge)....for the privilege of just playing another round of golf. Why do they have to charge anything? Why can't you just play golf? Without any money involved?
		
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We don't have to pay to play competitions - and didn't at my previous clubs - we do have a couple of quid sweep and twos but they are optional. Can't see why anyone would insist on charging members.


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## Captainron (Jun 11, 2021)

peld said:



			im not fussed about winning a trophy or getting a name on the Board, but what i would like is when i shoot a really good round (e.g. 40 pts for a 13hcp), ive got a chance of winning. On our short course, 40 points rarely makes top3, and have never been a winning score from about 10 comps in 2021 (42 lowest winner)
		
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40 points winning a come is very rare. You’re 2 or 3 points short


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## banjofred (Jun 11, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			We don't have to pay to play competitions - and didn't at my previous clubs - we do have a couple of quid sweep and twos but they are optional. Can't see why anyone would insist on charging members.
		
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It's the betting society here in the UK.....you HAVE to play for money. Why? I've never got it....but I have to bet to play golf in most cases here.....


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

I think the £4 entry fee (optional £1 extra for twos sweep) for competitions at my club has something to do with the prizes given for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and lowest gross.
I don't think that "No entry fee, no prizes" would get much support at an AGM.
And to get back to the OP, such a small number of players capable of winning the lowest gross prize, gives those players ZERO to complain about.
That _could _be why I am not aware of "low-handicap whinging" at my club.


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## dronfield (Jun 11, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			We don't have to pay to play competitions - and didn't at my previous clubs - we do have a couple of quid sweep and twos but they are optional. Can't see why anyone would insist on charging members.
		
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I have experienced the exact opposite. Over the past  25 years i have been a member of 4 clubs, and each one charged a comp entry fee (circa £2.50 - more for board comps) plus a further amount should you wish to enter 2s or sweep. A lot dont enter the 2s cos they feel they are just helping fund payouts for better players.
If your club has a lot of comps, summer Saturday golf can become expensive as many clubs wont let you play that day if you havent entered the comp - some clubs do allow social golf on comp days.


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## Captainron (Jun 11, 2021)

Always an entry fee for a comp plus optional 2’s.

It’s not loads £3/£4 maybe.

2’s are usually the only way to make a few quid back because I’m more likely to go veggie than win a comp 🤣🤣


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## davidy233 (Jun 11, 2021)

dronfield said:



			I have experienced the exact opposite. Over the past  25 years i have been a member of 4 clubs, and each one charged a comp entry fee (circa £2.50 - more for board comps) plus a further amount should you wish to enter 2s or sweep. A lot dont enter the 2s cos they feel they are just helping fund payouts for better players.
If your club has a lot of comps, summer Saturday golf can become expensive as many clubs wont let you play that day if you havent entered the comp - some clubs do allow social golf on comp days.
		
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Paying to play your own course every week - madness


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 11, 2021)

dronfield said:



			I have experienced the exact opposite. Over the past  25 years i have been a member of 4 clubs, and each one charged a comp entry fee (circa £2.50 - more for board comps) plus a further amount should you wish to enter 2s or sweep. A lot dont enter the 2s cos they feel *they are just helping fund payouts for better players.*
If your club has a lot of comps, summer Saturday golf can become expensive as many clubs wont let you play that day if you havent entered the comp - some clubs do allow social golf on comp days.
		
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Oh no, you've gone and done it now, the secret's out. My pro shop credit income stream will never be the same again.
Seriously, one year I calculated my twos sweep profit and asked the club pro to transfer half of it to the junior section competitions prizes fund.
I think everyone knows what the twos sweep is all about, that's why it is optional. I have to alleviate my guilt from time to time.
I'm doing quite well this year so far. 8 twos in 13 comps. I might offer a prize on Club Champ day to whoever makes the highest (not NR) score.


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## dronfield (Jun 11, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Paying to play your own course every week - madness
		
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That comment is made a lot - particularly by us folk still working, who may not have that many opportunities to play during the week.


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## garyinderry (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Oh no, you've gone and done it now, the secret's out. My pro shop credit income stream will never be the same again.
Seriously, one year I calculated my twos sweep profit and asked the club pro to transfer half of it to the junior section competitions prizes fund.
I think everyone knows what the twos sweep is all about, that's why it is optional. I have to alleviate my guilt from time to time.
I'm doing quite well this year so far. 8 twos in 13 comps. I might offer a prize on Club Champ day to whoever makes the highest (not NR) score.
		
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I've covered my comp fees this year on 2's quite comfortably.   Suuuusssshhhhhhh


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I have been a Cat 1 player for 35 years and am currently off 3 and I would respectfully disagree with that being a rule of thumb.   All golfers can have good and bad days.  But if you’re off a low figure it can seem like you’re consistent because to many 79 gross still sounds alright but to me it’s a pretty poor round of golf.  It’s the same as a 10 handicapper dropping 30 shots in percentage terms.

Loads of cat 1 players fluctuate wildly in terms of scoring.  In my last 20, the scores range from 67 to 83!

Where I would agree though is that + players are very consistent.   There’s about ten of them at our club and none of them ever have a complete mare.
		
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The above would simply make you another example of an elderly Cat 1 golfer. The graph of your scores is likely pretty similarly 'erratic' as Voyager's probably for similar reasonbs.
Oh and I'd dispute the validity of your '10 capper' comparison! That falls into the 'Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics' category!


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## badgergm (Jun 11, 2021)

Our club has quite a few multi round competitions - 6 in total I think, with one being an epic four rounds, over two weekends. Most play the last round in reverse order, I.e leaders out last, and gather round last green for a presentation. Certainly gives the more consistent low people an advantag, and is a great way of doing things. Pressure in the last group!

Main point is that with scratch / divisioval / multi round comps then should be able to be creative and satisfy all standards of golfers. That might mean an update of long cherished traditions though......


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## Tashyboy (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Can we make it to 500 posts in 24 hours? Will that be a record? Will the OP win an award if we do?
		
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Certainly hope not, my initial post was someone moaning he has no chance of winning a board comp playing off 3, but it transpires he has 4 one pointers on his card. So he ain’t never gonna win. My concern is that a couple of things he did say folk can relate to. Folk dropping out of comps being a main one. Surely that cannot be good.
 However at our place to enter a comp is £4 plus £1 for 2’s. Whether that is a 18 hole or a 9 hole. It seems the norm that folk are now saying stuff it for £5 for a nine holer and folk are having more and more fiddles.


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## jim8flog (Jun 11, 2021)

Two questions I would ask are

1. Are low handicap players really worried about board comps?  We used to have a scratch knockout comp but there were so few players that entered we ditched it .

2. Are players really bothered about winning personal trophies?  We have a very large box full of uncollected personal trophies. Is a name on the main club trophy sufficient?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Two questions I would ask are

1. Are low handicap players really worried about board comps?  We used to have a scratch knockout comp but there were so few players that entered we ditched it .

2. Are players really bothered about winning personal trophies?  We have a very large box full of uncollected personal trophies. Is a name on the main club trophy sufficient?
		
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1. At my place many are.  We had 32 entries in our scratch K/O.  Not a huge number but decent enough representation of the low guys
2. Not so much I am thinking.  I'm not bothered.  Becoming part of the historical record of the club is what I really value, inscription on trophy is nice, recorded on a board also.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I thought that was the purpose, but not so, as I have been informed by those who have given it a lot more study than I have.
I think the main concept of average of best 8 of last 20 appears to be universal, but Handicap Index, Course Handicaps and Playing Handicaps, and how they are calculated, varies around the world. I would be very wary of someone coming to my club from Australia, quoting their GA Index as equivalent to my EG Index and playing in an open, and that could be my dear brother.
		
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I think you will find that the Australian GA Handicap is virtually the same as what everyone else calls Handicap Index. Further, the GA Daily Handicap is equivalent to our Playing Handicap (ie Course Handicap with 93% built in). I would be interested knowing where you think there are substantial differences.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 11, 2021)

Our place hasn’t seen this trend and the low handicappers have done well. Nothing stand out, to suggest there is an issue.
However the course suits the low handicapper who has distance and control.. bunkers placed between 200-230 Yards won’t bother them … so I suppose the complaint is, it is killing the competition by penalising those players who cannot pass those distances safely. I get there is a skill but it’s more skilful to thread your way through than blast over the top of the traps. 
So in the end your scratcher /lowey should select his new club more carefully


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## rosecott (Jun 11, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Paying to play your own course every week - madness
		
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Not all clubs are the same.

My club, and many others are the same, operates on a site run by a limited company which provides all the facilities and sets the annual fees to pay for them. As a club, we have no direct income and rely on 20% or so of competition fee income to run the club - computer hardware and software, trophies, office expenses etc. etc.. Without the income stream from competition fees, we would not exist as a club.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Paying to play your own course every week - madness
		
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You don't have to!
Though I've never had a problem with doing so - it's a pretty trivial amount after all. When I was Comp Sec. the 2s sweep was always 'non-profit' for the club and there was minimal 'profit' from entry fees - 10% from memory, which subsidised/sponsored Interclub Match food.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			We don't have to pay to play competitions - and didn't at my previous clubs - we do have a couple of quid sweep and twos but they are optional. Can't see why anyone would insist on charging members.
		
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What funds the prize vouchers or trophies?

We pay to enter every comp and the money goes towards the prizes


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## davidy233 (Jun 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What funds the prize vouchers or trophies?

We pay to enter every comp and the money goes towards the prizes
		
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We have a sweep (voluntary) and that's divvied up between the winners in each division, most people pay a quid or two to take part but it doesn't mean you can't win if you don't pay - you just don't get any money for winning in that instance - Trophies already exist for anything that's worth winning - I'd assume that a very small part of my membership fee goes towards the cost of the 'keepsake' trophies that get handed out for winners to take home.


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			The above would simply make you another example of an elderly Cat 1 golfer. The graph of your scores is likely pretty similarly 'erratic' as Voyager's probably for similar reasonbs.
Oh and I'd dispute the validity of your '10 capper' comparison! That falls into the 'Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics' category!
		
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Elderly?  You cheeky clueless git!


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## davidy233 (Jun 11, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			2. Are players really bothered about winning personal trophies?  We have a very large box full of uncollected personal trophies. Is a name on the main club trophy sufficient?
		
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Love this one - anyone up for admitting to having a shelf in their house where they display their gold painted plastic tat golf trophies?


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## nickjdavis (Jun 12, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Love this one - anyone up for admitting to having a shelf in their house where they display their gold painted plastic tat golf trophies?
		
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The only golf trophy I display is a metal nut and bolt golfer breaking a club over his knee for shooting the worst score in a society event at Beau Desert back in 2012. My only gripe with getting the trophy is that my score wasn't the worst of the day...but it was the worst of all those who stuck it out and played the full 18 holes.


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## Diamond (Jun 12, 2021)

Just some thoughts.

Competitions I have entered, are run with 85% to 95% of your handicap. This favours the lower handicap golfer.
Payout for gross score, this favours the lower handicap golfer.
Payout for 2s, this favours the lower handicap golfer.
Club championship off scratch and handicap limit of 12, this favours the lower handicap golfer.

All the board comps at my club are won by someone different each year except the Club Championship and the Matchplay pairs. One is off scratch the other full handicap the rest is an eclectic mix of names.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 12, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Love this one - anyone up for admitting to having a shelf in their house where they display their gold painted plastic tat golf trophies?
		
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Not me. They are all in boxes in the loft apart from a framed photo of me with three trophies I won in 1995 and another won of me and Mrs V with the club champ trophy in 1991. I like that one for the smile on Mrs V's face.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 12, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I think you will find that the Australian GA Handicap is virtually the same as what everyone else calls Handicap Index. Further, the GA Daily Handicap is equivalent to our Playing Handicap (ie Course Handicap with 93% built in). I would be interested knowing where you think there are substantial differences.
		
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I did not say "substantial" I said "varies". You have given an example "93%" not 95%. Most cases this might make no difference once rounding to a playing or daily handicap, but it is different.
The GA formulas below vary from what we use in GB and I. Maybe not substantially, but they vary. What I like about the Ozzie system is that there is no Course Handicap. This has eliminated the misconception that many have here about "losing a shot with 95% being applied when lower handicappers do not lose a shot". That misconception still persists widely around my club. It sickens me.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 12, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Elderly?  You cheeky clueless git!
		
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Maybe he got confused between me and you. I don't know him personally. If he's elderly, you could forgive him for his mistake.
I am also a clueless git, sometimes. But I'm not that keen on being described as "elderly" either.


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## Foxholer (Jun 12, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Elderly?  You cheeky clueless git!
		
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Ok then... Would you prefer 'mature'? How old were you when you became a Cat 1?
And FWIW, I'm definitely 'elderly' so quite possibly a 'git' (to some), but would dispute 'clueless'! As a golfer, I never made it to Cat 1. 7 was as low as I got, but spent most of my active comp golf at 9.


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## rulefan (Jun 12, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I did not say "substantial" I said "varies". You have given an example "93%" not 95%. Most cases this might make no difference once rounding to a playing or daily handicap, but it is different.
The GA formulas below vary from what we use in GB and I. Maybe not substantially, but they vary. What I like about the Ozzie system is that there is no Course Handicap. This has eliminated the misconception that many have here about "losing a shot with 95% being applied when lower handicappers do not lose a shot". That misconception still persists widely around my club. It sickens me.

View attachment 37019

View attachment 37020

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I certainly like the combination of CH & PH into DH.
But the SDiff calc is only a sop to those who can't work out when they've played to handicap using par. However virtually all play in Oz is stableford rather than medal so I suppose it makes sense to them. But the overall effect is trivial.


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## 3offTheTee (Jun 12, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Elderly?  You cheeky clueless git!
		
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Compared to some of the comments seen on here over the years’ I find the response extremely mild!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Our place hasn’t seen this trend and the low handicappers have done well. Nothing stand out, to suggest there is an issue.
However the course suits the low handicapper who has distance and control.. bunkers placed between 200-230 Yards won’t bother them … so I suppose the complaint is, it is killing the competition by penalising those players who cannot pass those distances safely. I get there is a skill but it’s more skilful to thread your way through than blast over the top of the traps. 
So in the end your scratcher /lowey should select his new club more carefully
		
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Aha, another place where it irritates😀. In the scheme of things, it's a small point, but we have one hole where there is a bunker slap in middle of fairway, 200 yds from tee.  Perfect to collect a seniors good drive.!!
Grrr,!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Aha, another place where it irritates😀. In the scheme of things, it's a small point, but we have one hole where there is a bunker slap in middle of fairway, 200 yds from tee.  Perfect to collect a seniors good drive.!!
Grrr,!
		
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Never understood that.
West Lancs has one in the middle of the fairway.
The aim is to hit the fairway there should not be a bunker there.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Never understood that.
West Lancs has one in the middle of the fairway.
The aim is to hit the fairway there should not be a bunker there.
		
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Nothing wrong with that. Asks the player to decide whether to try to carry, lay up or avoid.


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## rulefan (Jun 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Aha, another place where it irritates😀. In the scheme of things, it's a small point, but we have one hole where there is a bunker slap in middle of fairway, 200 yds from tee.  Perfect to collect a seniors good drive.!!
Grrr,!
		
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It will have been allowed for in the Course Rating process.
Does it significantly affect the ability of a player getting net par?


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## davidy233 (Jun 12, 2021)

12th on the Old Course has a big bunker with 180 carry yards from the tee - slap bang in the middle of the fairway and two smaller ones - again right in the middle at a 210 carry, I don't think you can see any of them from the tee - On a trip with my mates in the early 90s when I lived in England we stood on the tee and looked at the yardage book then advised Mel, who had the honour, that he should pick a line right or left - for some reason he got grumpy with us and hit one right down the middle (unusually straight for him) - he was not amused when a Hamlet cigar (if you remember the TV advert you'll know) was thrown in to him after his fifth attempt to get out.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Nothing wrong with that. Asks the player to decide whether to try to carry, lay up or avoid.
		
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The object of golf is to hit the middle of the fairway usually and a bad shot ends up in a hazard or rough.
So I disagree.
If your in the middle of the fairway there should not be a hazard there imo.


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## rulefan (Jun 12, 2021)




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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			The object of golf is to hit the middle of the fairway usually and a bad shot ends up in a hazard or rough.
So I disagree.
If your in the middle of the fairway there should not be a hazard there imo.
		
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Easy enough to play short of it.


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## pendodave (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			The object of golf is to hit the middle of the fairway usually and a bad shot ends up in a hazard or rough.
So I disagree.
If your in the middle of the fairway there should not be a hazard there imo.
		
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There was me thinking it was to get the ball in the hole in as few shots as possible. Thinking allowed.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			The object of golf is to hit the middle of the fairway usually and a bad shot ends up in a hazard or rough.
So I disagree.
If your in the middle of the fairway there should not be a hazard there imo.
		
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Tell Old Tom Morris that 😊


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Easy enough to play short of it.
		
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It’s a par 5 over 500yds and a bunker in the middle of the fairway 220yds off the tee.
Brambles on sand dunes both sides .
Must just be me.
But I always thought bunkers were for offline shots.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought bunkers were for offline shots.
		
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That's the mistake you've been making.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 12, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			That's the mistake you've been making.
		
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But shift them up to 240-270 and let them do their carnage


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## pendodave (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s a par 5 over 500yds and a bunker in the middle of the fairway 220yds off the tee.
Brambles on sand dunes both sides .
Must just be me.
But I always thought bunkers were for offline shots.
		
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There's an Alistair McKenzie course near me. The bunkers aren't there to catch the rubbish shots. They are there to catch the nearly great shots. They are there to snag the good golfers who stray just close enough in order to try and get the best angles in, or sneak a few hards closer. Trying to get birdies and risking for rewards.
Rubbish golfers are penalised by just being rubbish. You don't need to end up in hazards if you're playing bogey golf.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2021)

pendodave said:



			There's an Alistair McKenzie course near me. The bunkers aren't there to catch the rubbish shots. They are there to catch the nearly great shots. They are there to snag the good golfers who stray just close enough in order to try and get the best angles in, or sneak a few hards closer. Trying to get birdies and risking for rewards.
Rubbish golfers are penalised by just being rubbish. You don't need to end up in hazards if you're playing bogey golf.
		
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I see the point.
But if I hit it in the middle of the fairway is it not reasonable to expect a fairway lie?
But you know it’s there before you hit your shot.
Just my opinion.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2021)

Maninblack4612 said:



			That's the mistake you've been making.
		
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Really it’s a mistake hitting the middle of the fairway?
There can’t be many holes where to miss a bunker in the middle of the fairway you can only hit 6 iron to be sure your short.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I see the point.
But if I hit it in the middle of the fairway is it not reasonable to expect a fairway lie?
But you know it’s there before you hit your shot.
Just my opinion.
		
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Me I see both sides. I played the old course and smacked one down the middle and found it in a pot bunker. Swear, not half. I could not see the point of it. 2 yards either side and it’s a brilliant drive. how’s that right, Am then told if I had a course planner I would not of played that shot. 😳
but at Woodhall spa, there’s holes where you get your driver out and you know you second shot is out of bunkers so you manage the hole. If you cannot see a hazard. How do you know it’s there. 🤔


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## chellie (Jun 12, 2021)

Surely you lay up if you can't carry the bunker? Doesn't really matter if it's in the middle of the fairway.


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## Foxholer (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			The object of golf is to hit the middle of the fairway usually and a bad shot ends up in a hazard or rough.
So I disagree.
If your in the middle of the fairway there should not be a hazard there imo.
		
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Sorry, I thought 'the object of Golf' is to get the ball in the hole in the fewest shots possible! If a lay-up (or bypass) of a bunker achieves that, then that's the best thing to do!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Me I see both sides. I played the old course and smacked one down the middle and found it in a pot bunker. Swear, not half. I could not see the point of it. 2 yards either side and it’s a brilliant drive. how’s that right, Am then told if I had a course planner I would not of played that shot. 😳
but at Woodhall spa, there’s holes where you get your driver out and you know you second shot is out of bunkers so you manage the hole. If you cannot see a hazard. How do you know it’s there. 🤔
		
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You can see this one as there is not much room either side.
It’s one of those things but my brain won’t let me aim in the sand dunes.
I suppose the sale of course planners is quite high for that reason.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Really it’s a mistake hitting the middle of the fairway?
There can’t be many holes where to miss a bunker in the middle of the fairway you can only hit 6 iron to be sure your short.
		
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But you haven't hit the middle of the fairway if you're in the bunker.

So what if you have to hit a 6 iron off the tee. Nowhere does it say you have to hit driver off every tee.


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## davidy233 (Jun 12, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			You can see this one as there is not much room either side.
It’s one of those things but my brain won’t let me aim in the sand dunes.
I suppose the sale of course planners is quite high for that reason.
		
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Plenty room either side - I hit a 180 yard slice and was on the green in two - have you been to the Old course - doesn't really have dunes - the undulations are all on the fairways


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 12, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry, I thought 'the object of Golf' is to get the ball in the hole in the fewest shots possible! If a lay-up (or bypass) of a bunker achieves that, then that's the best thing to do!
		
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Knowing the best thing to do, is not really the question here.
Those of us who find the middle -of -the -fairway  bunker irksome are aware of what is required.
However, we are commenting on whether it is satisfactory to design a golf course so that a drive down the middle is punished by a hazard.
In the case on my course, it is on a par 5, so if you play short ( to avoid it),
there's a more than fair way to go.😀


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## KenL (Jun 13, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			We don't have to pay to play competitions - and didn't at my previous clubs - we do have a couple of quid sweep and twos but they are optional. Can't see why anyone would insist on charging members.
		
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At my club the £1.50 entry is used to pay for engraving, prize vouchers given out at the end of the year and engraved whisky glasses.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 13, 2021)

Bunkers in fairways? Non-issue in my view.
No difference from bunkers in front of greens that you must clear, brooks across fairways, tight dog-legs where if you hit driver you go too far. Straight shots where you might find trouble.

We have three par 4s where you have to drive over a tree or drive to the side of it, making the hole play longer and tighter. So shorter hitters are far more hindered than big hitters.
All these difficulties should be taken care of by course rating and slope rating.


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## SammmeBee (Jun 13, 2021)

High handicappers rarely win anything at the Old Course or any other tougher tracks as they just don’t have the skill to play them - irrespective of any well placed bunkers.

The recent condition of gold courses eithe later start to the year with the weather has played into the hands of those with more shots - no rough to speak of and poorer greens - so they can get good scores in.  

Now the grass has longer down the sides and round the greens and the greens are quicker and truer - it will aid those better players’ scores and hinder the less able as they just can’t cope with the harder conditions over 18 holes with their errant shot causing far more damage to their scorecard compared to low handicapper.


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## patricks148 (Jun 13, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			High handicappers rarely win anything at the Old Course or any other tougher tracks as they just don’t have the skill to play them - irrespective of any well placed bunkers.

The recent condition of gold courses eithe later start to the year with the weather has played into the hands of those with more shots - no rough to speak of and poorer greens - so they can get good scores in.

Now the grass has longer down the sides and round the greens and the greens are quicker and truer - it will aid those better players’ scores and hinder the less able as they just can’t cope with the harder conditions over 18 holes with their errant shot causing far more damage to their scorecard compared to low handicapper.
		
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definitely something in that, last year of our 10 silver trophies 9 were won by scratch a better players, this year the 3 we have had so far have been won by guys of 16 plus. No rough to speak of and the greens not great. It will be interesting what the scores are like this week at the Am , esp as there is some wind forcaste, which wasn't the case last time we had an elite comp. The rough is back and the greens really come good with the warm th of the last few weeks


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 13, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Plenty room either side - I hit a 180 yard slice and was on the green in two - have you been to the Old course - doesn't really have dunes - the undulations are all on the fairways
		
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I was talking about West Lancs ! Have you been there ?
Tash mentioned the Old Course.
If you hit it 180 with a slice on the second at WL you would not be getting anywhere near the green unless you can hit it 320 yds out the rough.

Just had a look on the website and there’s TWO bunkers now. But they have made them smaller.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Knowing the best thing to do, is not really the question here.
Those of us who find the middle -of -the -fairway  bunker irksome are aware of what is required.
However, we are commenting on whether it is satisfactory to design a golf course so that a drive down the middle is punished by a hazard.
In the case on my course, it is on a par 5, so if you play short ( to avoid it),
there's a more than fair way to go.😀
		
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Exactly.
It’s a lazy design to protect a short par five imo.


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## davidy233 (Jun 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I was talking about West Lancs ! Have you been there ?
Tash mentioned the Old Course.
If you hit it 180 with a slice on the second at WL you would not be getting anywhere near the green unless you can hit it 320 yds out the rough.

Just had a look on the website and there’s TWO bunkers now. But they have made them smaller.
		
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My apologies - I took Tashy's reference


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 13, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			My apologies - I took Tashy's reference
		
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No prob.
Old course is on the list but havnt made it yet.
One day.


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## patricks148 (Jun 13, 2021)

K


clubchamp98 said:



			Exactly.
It’s a lazy design to protect a short par five imo.
		
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    I'd not recommend playing any Mackenzie & Ebert 'rdesigns they love sticking a bunker or bunkers in the middle of a fairway


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 13, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			K
    I'd not recommend playing any Mackenzie & Ebert 'rdesigns they love sticking a bunker or bunkers in the middle of a fairway

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Yes 
But what about that one in the USA where they have a bunker in the middle of the green.
That’s even worse?


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## patricks148 (Jun 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Me I see both sides. I played the old course and smacked one down the middle and found it in a pot bunker. Swear, not half. I could not see the point of it. 2 yards either side and it’s a brilliant drive. how’s that right, Am then told if I had a course planner I would not of played that shot. 😳
but at Woodhall spa, there’s holes where you get your driver out and you know you second shot is out of bunkers so you manage the hole. If you cannot see a hazard. How do you know it’s there. 🤔
		
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You Should have had a caddie at TOC, they would have told you to to hit it left on every hole, last time I played there I didn't see a bunker let alone to hear one


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## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Knowing the best thing to do, is not really the question here.
Those of us who find the middle -of -the -fairway  bunker irksome are aware of what is required.
However, we are commenting on whether it is satisfactory to design a golf course so that a drive down the middle is punished by a hazard.
In the case on my course, it is on a par 5, so if you play short ( to avoid it),
there's a more than fair way to go.😀
		
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I'm still puzzled about why you think it's wrong to put a hazard as a challenge in the middle of the fairway! It's a classic risk/reward situation/decision imo - or at least should be!


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## r0wly86 (Jun 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'm still puzzled about why you think it's wrong to put a hazard as a challenge in the middle of the fairway! It's a classic risk/reward situation/decision imo - or at least should be!
		
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Precisely, that's the kind of golf I love, sensible option lay up and leave yourself a longer second shot, or try to carry it or go to the side, get it and leave yourself an easier shot, mess up and your in a worse position than a laying up. Classic golf


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 13, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'm still puzzled about why you think it's wrong to put a hazard as a challenge in the middle of the fairway! It's a classic risk/reward situation/decision imo - or at least should be!
		
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If you put a bunker in the fairway like the one on WL second hole 
If you lay up you can’t go for the green in two. That is the real risk and reward imo on that hole par 5.
If it’s a natural feature pond , big crater that’s fair enough but a man made one is not to my liking.
bunkers should on fairway edges and be in clusters.
Short one , medium one ,long one so everyone has to negotiate them.
Opinions differ that’s good we are all different .


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## garyinderry (Jun 13, 2021)

A bunker at 220 in the middle of the fairway ain't troubling most guys who hit it 220 when its playing into a stiff wind.  


Its more likely to trouble the guys hitting it 240/250. 

A bunker wont move but the conditions will dictate who it affects on any particular day.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 13, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			A bunker at 220 in the middle of the fairway ain't troubling most guys who hit it 220 when its playing into a stiff wind. 


Its more likely to trouble the guys hitting it 240/250.

A bunker wont move but the conditions will dictate who it affects on any particular day.
		
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It’s / was one of those that seems to collect a ball even when it looks like missing by miles.
Off the very back can’t get near it into the wind.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 13, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			You Should have had a caddie at TOC, they would have told you to to hit it left on every hole, last time I played there I didn't see a bunker let alone to hear one

Click to expand...

In all honesty it was my best drive of the day. And probably the only one that went down the middle


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## rulefan (Jun 13, 2021)

chellie said:



			Surely you lay up if you can't carry the bunker? Doesn't really matter if it's in the middle of the fairway.
		
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In which case it would have been factored in as a 'forced layup' or 'layup by choice' in the Rating.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			In which case it would have been factored in as a 'forced layup' or 'layup by choice' in the Rating.
		
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But the rating is also based on a low handicap player and they can carry so the index gets affected as the course is deemed easier .. I don’t mind playing off the back as I am out of range but I still have 180-210 into the par 4


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## rulefan (Jun 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			But the rating is also based on a low handicap player and they can carry so the index gets affected as the course is deemed easier .. I don’t mind playing off the back as I am out of range but I still have 180-210 into the par 4
		
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The Bogey Rating & Slope should make a contribution.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The Bogey Rating & Slope should make a contribution.
		
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Yes but if one is completely over influenced then there lies a problem.. I think you will see the scratchers picking more carefully their clubs and you will see a bit of desperation from those not low or long enough


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## SammmeBee (Jun 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes but if one is completely over influenced then there lies a problem.. I think you will see the scratchers picking more carefully their clubs and you will see a bit of desperation from those not low or long enough
		
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The latter have no choice…..their LOFT doesn’t allow for it…….


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## gopher99 (Jun 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes
But what about that one in the USA where they have a bunker in the middle of the green.
That’s even worse?
		
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You are talking about the sixth hole at Riviera country club, makes some good watching for a par3.


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## Orikoru (Jun 14, 2021)

I haven't read through this whole thread so don't know if it's been asked already. But why don't more clubs just have two prizes on their major comps, one for best gross and one for best net/Stableford score? So those who feel they can't win one can compete for the other, and vice versa?


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## The Dog. (Jun 14, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I haven't read through this whole thread so don't know if it's been asked already. But why don't more clubs just have two prizes on their major comps, one for best gross and one for best net/Stableford score? So those who feel they can't win won can compete for the other, and vice versa?
		
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Because many comp committees don't agree with your view.  I do though.


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## Orikoru (Jun 14, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Because many comp committees don't agree with your view.  I do though.
		
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It seems like the only chance you'd have of pleasing everyone.


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## patricks148 (Jun 14, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			It seems like the only chance you'd have of pleasing everyone.
		
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my Club has prizes for both, but then we do have a lot of scratch and better players, I can understand why some clubs don't if the y don't have many scratch and low handicap members


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## Whereditgo (Jun 14, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			my Club has prizes for both, but then we do have a lot of scratch and better players, I can understand why some clubs don't if the y don't have many scratch and low handicap members
		
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We're the opposite of this, with very few really low guys, so it's just the club champs, 36 holes over consecutive days, that has both. I won the handicap comp last year after carding a 10 on the par 4 third hole on day one


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

IanM said:



			I think that group have a huge deviation on their range if scores, so if they have a good day, sky's the limit.

My 19 handicap buddy has broken 80, but he also struggles to break 100 when he's having a mare.
		
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It is all to do with variability. If your range of scores is + or - 20 from your average, some days you will shoot the lights out and other days need a calculator to count your score. One wins a comp, the other doesn't matter so much. A scratch player has a much higher range, hence the handicap system pivots much closer to the better scores to reduce that variability, and other elements, 95% or the old 7/8 handicap tighten it a bit further, and stableford has the opposite effect, limiting the impact of high players disaster holes while the scratch player doesn't have them. CONGU used an assymetrical system for reducing/increasing, WHS pivots at around your 4th or 5th best score out of 20. CONGU has more drag since it is based on previous handicaps, WHS is more free to change quickly.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 15, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I haven't read through this whole thread so don't know if it's been asked already. But why don't more clubs just have two prizes on their major comps, one for best gross and one for best net/Stableford score? So those who feel they can't win one can compete for the other, and vice versa?
		
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You would have to declare which one your playing in.
We have a lowest gross in every comp but it’s a token gesture and a fraction of the net prize.
How is prize money divided ?
The whole field could win the net, but only a few could win the gross.


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## Orikoru (Jun 15, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



*You would have to declare which one your playing in.*
We have a lowest gross in every comp but it’s a token gesture and a fraction of the net prize.
How is prize money divided ?
The whole field could win the net, but only a few could win the gross.
		
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Err no you wouldn't? My old club has gross prize and net prizes on their club championships. You can win either one.


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## KenL (Jun 16, 2021)

Prize money at my club in medals is based on the money entered into different sweep pots.  Both £1.

There are different categories for both so anyone can win the "gross" sweep.


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## howbow88 (Jun 16, 2021)

I wouldn't consider myself a 'low handicapper', but I guess I'm lower than average at 8.4. I won at the weekend with a nett 66, playing off 9. I only won on countback over a guy playing off 21. I'm now down to 7.7.


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## bobmac (Jun 16, 2021)

I was a member of RAF Bruggen in Germany and there was normally a comp every weekend.

The sweep entry was a compulsory DM5 (just under £2). All that money went into nett prizes.
If you wanted to enter the gross sweep, you had to pay an extra DM5, all that money went into one gross prize which was DM25 to DM35
1st nett prize was always over DM 100 and won by 8-10 under h/cap.

At least they had the option of competing for a gross prize, my next club WSM GC had no gross prize or divisions for their weekly/monthly comps.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Err no you wouldn't? My old club has gross prize and net prizes on their club championships. You can win either one.
		
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As I said “ we have one in every comp”
You have to declare your going in it.
It’s not worth winning your lucky to get a tenner.
It’s just a token gesture to the low men, as they have very little chance of the net .


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## evemccc (Sep 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They do level it as best as it can - if everyone plays to their handicap then it’s even , just like always some days people play below and some above it. The player no doubt won a fair whack getting down to scratch and I suspect he didn’t go running to EG then

There is a lot of settling down to happen with WHS
		
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At my place there is a very consistent and good low ‘capper who wins more than his share of HC comps - I don’t begrudge this as he is nice enough to everyone —- But surely, if someone always and very often plays to their HC and wins more comps than anyone else, then surely their HC is too high..?🤫


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## Captain_Black. (Sep 23, 2022)

Although I enter every comp cos I love playing I know I'm just making up the numbers with no chance of being even placed never mind winning.
Recently me & my playing partner played in a Senior 4BBB, we pared every hole except one which was a bogey, we scored 42 points.

The winning score was 49 points by 2x high handicappers.
We didn't even get in the top ten.
Lots of players especially Seniors at every club just playing off of entirely false handicaps
The only solution I see is 2x divisions 
Under 18 h/c
Over 18 h/c
Prizes split equally between the divisions 
Board comps?
Dunno what the answer is on that one.
What I do know is nobody under 18 h/c is winning these at my club.
Comps all being won by 20+ h/c with huge ridiculous scores.


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## IanM (Sep 23, 2022)

All comps should be in appropriate divisions. 

Cut the value of Open prize tables.    Watch the winning scores fall😁


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## Backsticks (Sep 23, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			Although I enter every comp cos I love playing I know I'm just making up the numbers with no chance of being even placed never mind winning.
Recently me & my playing partner played in a Senior 4BBB, we pared every hole except one which was a bogey, we scored 42 points.

The winning score was 49 points by 2x high handicappers.
We didn't even get in the top ten.
Lots of players especially Seniors at every club just playing off of entirely false handicaps
The only solution I see is 2x divisions
Under 18 h/c
Over 18 h/c
Prizes split equally between the divisions
Board comps?
Dunno what the answer is on that one.
What I do know is nobody under 18 h/c is winning these at my club.
Comps all being won by 20+ h/c with huge ridiculous scores.
		
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Do you think it is just the system, or is dishonesty and handicap manipulation rampant in the 18+ hcs in your club ?


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## Captain_Black. (Sep 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Do you think it is just the system, or is dishonesty and handicap manipulation rampant in the 18+ hcs in your club ?
		
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My mindset is to always play the best I can & be off as low a h/c as I can.
The Seniors section especially at my club & others as well going by conversions I've overheard on my travels seem to want as many shots as possible to keep bringing in the huge scores.
Lots of grumbling at my club from most under 15 or 16 h/c saying it's pointless entering comps.
If this continues which I think it will, our comps will soon only consist of high handicappers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2022)

IanM said:



			All comps should be in appropriate divisions.

Cut the value of Open prize tables.    Watch the winning scores fall😁
		
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I played with a mate yesterday from another club who came second in a team open a couple of weeks ago. Their prize? A 4 ball to be used by the end of next year. He was happy, he liked the course, the pot hunters would undoubtedly be miffed. It's the way to stop the bandits.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 24, 2022)

When you have say 100 players CH single figures, and 500 with higher CHs, surely there is simply a greater statistical likelihood of one of the latter shooting the lights out of their handicap - because someone is always going to do it. And depending upon conditions and things like pin position, there will be times when ‘shooting the lights out’ for a 20+ handicapper will see a score a SF handicapper will feel is totally out of reach.

I‘ll note that 10-16 hcappers at my place seem to fare pretty well in things.  

I am thinking it significant that the toughening up of all of our bunkers over the last 4 yrs has impacted things.  Many higher handicappers can really struggle to get out as they now all have steep and quite high, often very high, revetted faces.  You really have to have a good idea of how to get out of them, and accept that sometimes a forward shot is really not for your capability…and many find that a difficult ‘acceptance’ and hence much whinging as they take 2, 3 often more shots to get out.


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## rulefan (Sep 24, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			1) When you have say 100 players CH single figures, and 500 with higher CHs, surely there is simply a greater statistical likelihood of one of the latter shooting the lights out of their handicap -
2) I‘ll note that 10-16 hcappers at my place seem to fare pretty well in things.
		
Click to expand...

1) That's what the studies show
2) Probably because mid cappers are the highest proportion of active members


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