# Immigration - Benefits



## 3offTheTee (Mar 27, 2013)

Is someone able to explain why so more immigrants want to come to The UK rather than say Germany or France?

Basically what I should like to know is how our benefits compare with other countries?


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## forefortheday (Mar 27, 2013)

So all immigrants come here to enjoy our benefits then?

We have a lower level of immigration than both those countries so maybe you should be asking whats so good about their benefits system.


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## Paul_Stewart (Mar 28, 2013)

More than 560,000 people moved to Britain in 2011, the highest number in the EU and almost 20 per cent of all migrants moving in and around the continent.

Most of the people moving to the UK come from outside the 27 European Union member states.
One in five of all migrants in Europe settled in Britain in 2011, according to the European Commission's statistics body Eurostat

One in five of all migrants in Europe settled in Britain in 2011, according to the European Commission's statistics body Eurostat

Latest figures from Eurostat, the statistics body of the European Commission, reveal the full scale of immigration across nations.

In 2011, the UK topped the immigration league table welcoming 566,000 people, much higher than second place Germany which saw 489,400 migrants arrive. The next highest was Spain with 457,600, followed by Italy on 385,000 and Franceâ€™s 267,000.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 28, 2013)

Anyone know the figures for British folk migrating out of the UK.
I believe it is not very different to those coming in.

Just checked, over 400,000. Mainly to Spain.


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## Foxholer (Mar 28, 2013)

Because not long ago most of the globe was coloured pink!

I'm one of those immigrants, some 20-odd years ago. I certainly didn't come 10k miles at considerable cost in order to 'take advantage' of the (subsistence level) benefits available! I haven't claimed any benefits. I think I've used the NHS, the other releant major cost area, significantly less than most and, apart from a couple of notable exceptions, it wasn't a high quality experience. So I believe I have been a net contributor. I think that's pretty typical of the great majority of immigrants. 

If you are that keen to promote bigotry and raise polarised attitudes, perhaps you should find and publish the stats of those moving *within* the EU-27. That could well give you a better metric of those who are moving about for the 'better opportunity' reasons, benefits or otherwise.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2013)

Not now, not this conversation, not in the current climate.  I give it 3 pages before it jumps the shark.

Still, I suppose could be worse, it could be on unmodded weekend.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2013)

3offTheTee said:



			Is someone able to explain why so more immigrants want to come to The UK rather than say Germany or France?
		
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The weather.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2013)

Perhaps a better barometer of benefits abuse(?) would be to look at the numbers of the indigenous population that are on long term benefits for no other reason than they've made it a lifestyle choice.

The Coalition govt are playing at sound bite politics by making a mountain out of a mole hill. Yes, there are some economic migrants but in truth they form a small percentage of a far greater problem, i.e. lazy Brits.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2013)

Please stop everyone, we know where this is going, wont somebody think of the children!!!!

Come on guys, what's your favourite rain suit, what about that TM marketing eh? Tiger Woods, is he back?  Please.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			The weather.
		
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I did once ask a Canadian engineer why he ever left the delights of Nova Scotia for these fair isles.  His immediate response was "For your tropical winters."  Which I suppose proves everything is relative.


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## DCB (Mar 28, 2013)

Sorry guys, don't want to be heavy handed, but Mods have been made aware of this thread and the potential to where it might lead. 

Keep it on track and sensible please.

Thanks

DCB


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2013)

The population growth in this country is unsustainable.  There are a finite number of jobs and public services, if the population increases by 250,000 in a year by net migration we will put the structure of our society under increasing stress.    Just think of a medium sized city like Gloucester, this level of immigration is twice the population of this city in a year.

There are real net benefits to the country through immigration but offsetby the current numbers.   On the issue of benefits, we have a big problem with welfare spending irrespective of whether immigration is a part of the problem.   Our country is not rich enough to sustain the current level of public spending and no matter what parties govern this country they will have to reduce it or face a situation very similar to what you see in Cyprus today.


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## SyR (Mar 28, 2013)

3offTheTee said:



			Is someone able to explain why so more immigrants want to come to The UK rather than say Germany or France?

Basically what I should like to know is how our benefits compare with other countries?
		
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All the immigrants I know are hard working, tax paying individuals who are here to work. The benefit system is no more attractive to them as it is to the normal working UK person.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2013)

And there you have it. The immigrants are here to work. because the "do gooders" have made it possible for the lazy to be, well....lazy, with all the benefits they are getting. Now we need to import labor to do the jobs that our lazy are too, well...lazy to do. 

EG. We have a young fella me lad working with us. He travels by bus,train, bus and legs to reach us. I know loads of lazy bums on my estate that could do the work,but won't. One lad on our estate, who doesn't work, recently purchased a new dog, yup one of those ones. A month later, he now has two!!! What is that about you stupid do gooders !!!!!!!???? EH? Eh?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2013)

SyR said:



			All the immigrants I know are hard working, tax paying individuals who are here to work. The benefit system is no more attractive to them as it is to the normal working UK person.
		
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If you were a Romanian or Bulgarian getting around Â£3 a day the benefit system would certainly be attractive to you.  Whether the money is paid to immigrants or work shy British it is more than we can afford and any increases will mean higher taxes for those working


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## MarkA (Mar 28, 2013)

The only possible cure for the benefits system is the workhouse, something the Victorians got so right! Somehow I think that may be less attractive to these scroungers who havent got a days work in them
Siingle Mothers getting pregnant to get flats? Generations of families never having worked?  Not worthwhile someone giving up benefits to go to work ?- what have we come to? Now we have to feed and house Europes migrants, bloody marvellous I love flogging my guts out to support other people  and now i'm expected to do so for those who arent even natives of the UK


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## sydney greenstreet (Mar 28, 2013)

3offTheTee said:



			Is someone able to explain why so more immigrants want to come to The UK rather than say Germany or France?
		
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The golf ?


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## Adi2Dassler (Mar 28, 2013)

I live and work in Leith, Edinburgh.The area is well known as the centre of Sub-Indian continent immigration in the 70's/80's/90's...the two main streets, Leith Walk and Great Junction Street and known for the shops being ran/owned by Indians/Bangaldeshi/Pakistanis.
In the last 5 years, Leith has become the centre of the Polish influx.We now have Polish shops,bars,hairdressers etc,All paying tax, all working, all contributing to the pot and the local community.

Leith is also very well known as being well populated by junkies, Trainspotting etc....cheers Irvine!

I see junkies everyday all day, drug dealers selling scripts, whole families reliant on govt handouts.To man,woman and child, they're all white,Scottish and at least 2/3rd generation Edinburgh.

The problem lies with the lazy indigenous people who refuse to work, collect various benefits and are coddled by the nanny state.The problem is not the immigration numbers, it's the lazy work shy locals who have a sense of entitlement endorsed by govt.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Leith is also very well known as being well populated by junkies, Trainspotting etc....cheers Irvine!
		
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Having never been I imagine Leith as being full of sunshine, thanks to The Proclaimers.  Quality song by the way.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2013)

MarkA said:



			The only possible cure for the benefits system is the workhouse, something the Victorians got so right! Somehow I think that may be less attractive to these scroungers who havent got a days work in them
Siingle Mothers getting pregnant to get flats? Generations of families never having worked?  Not worthwhile someone giving up benefits to go to work ?- what have we come to? Now we have to feed and house Europes migrants, bloody marvellous I love flogging my guts out to support other people  and now i'm expected to do so for those who arent even natives of the UK
		
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Dear Daily Mail.....


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## Adi2Dassler (Mar 28, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Having never been I imagine Leith as being full of sunshine, thanks to The Proclaimers.  Quality song by the way.
		
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Leith is full of many things,sunshine is not one of them...Craig (or Charlie) sits behind me at Easter Road, kinda weird before every game when they play that.


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## patricks148 (Mar 28, 2013)

Many are saying immigration is good for our economy, but I just canâ€™t see it. Itâ€™s true many come here to work, but many are minimum wage jobs so are not paying much in tax if anything.  Many have also brought over their children, wives who all have access to the NHS and education. Most these are already under a huge strain and its going to get worse.


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## Adi2Dassler (Mar 28, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Many are saying immigration is good for our economy, but I just canâ€™t see it. Itâ€™s true many come here to work, but many are minimum wage jobs so are not paying much in tax if anything.  Many have also brought over their children, wives who all have access to the NHS and education. Most these are already under a huge strain and its going to get worse.
		
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they spend their wages here,though.And with our decreasing pool of workers, their kids will become workers,tax payers etc.

I agree that numbers need to be looked at, but immigration is vital to the economy.


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## MarkA (Mar 28, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Dear Daily Mail.....

Click to expand...

So HK what do you propose?


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## Phil2511 (Mar 28, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Many are saying immigration is good for our economy, but I just canâ€™t see it. Itâ€™s true many come here to work, but many are minimum wage jobs so are not paying much in tax if anything.  Many have also brought over their children, wives who all have access to the NHS and education. Most these are already under a huge strain and its going to get worse.
		
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I asked at the school why was my youngest doing the same work in P2 that the oldest did in P1 and why was my old P4 teacher now teaching my oldest the same work in P5. 

The answer was that due to the amount of foreign national children that didn't know their ABC or count to 10 etc when they hit primary school and the fact that their parents did not speak English at home is the reason why the kids are now a year behind what they would have been 5 years ago.


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## sajkox (Mar 28, 2013)

1. language - english is most common thats why ppl come to UK (although some ppl dont speak eng at all :O its usually when they know some1 here already) 
2. because they work for less business grows faster and b. owners pay more taxes (not like som1 suggested that they pay min tax so it makes no sense economically)
3. in terms of using benefits - immigrants abuse the system much less than natives (you can google it out)


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## MarkA (Mar 28, 2013)

sajkox said:



			1. language - english is most common thats why ppl come to UK (although some ppl dont speak eng at all :O its usually when they know some1 here already) 
2. because they work for less business grows faster and b. owners pay more taxes (not like som1 suggested that they pay min tax so it makes no sense economically)
3. in terms of using benefits - immigrants abuse the system much less than natives (you can google it out)
		
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It'd be nice if you could use English instead of text speak - some1  ?????

In response to your points:
1. If you can't speak English why to come to the country in the first place without learning the language? Why should we be responsible for immigrants learning our language?
2. What evidence have you got to back that up? 
3. Again, quote your source and are you quoting a percentage or actual numbers?


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## sajkox (Mar 28, 2013)

MarkA said:



			It'd be nice if you could use English instead of text speak - some1  ?????
		
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Sorry about that  



			1. If you can't speak English why to come to the country in the first place without learning the language? Why should we be responsible for immigrants learning our language?
		
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While I can't answer for those people - I've seen many of them actually working without issues. And I believe they come here without knowing the language (which is quite brave imo) because they can't find a job in home coutry / can't live for the money they earn there. Again just my opinion



			2. What evidence have you got to back that up?
		
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I don't think I need to back it up as its self explanatory and obvious (imo)



			3. Again, quote your source and are you quoting a percentage or actual numbers?
		
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Read a whitepaper that had percentages. Sorry, but I'm not bothered to look it up


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2013)

In my opinion it's nothing to do with immigrants working, it's that the country is overpopulated.  We already have enough people in the country to do the work, what we need to do is stop paying benefits to those that refuse to do it, we then wont need to have more people coming here and putting the countries resources under stress.  We have the best Universities and schools in the world, we should be able to train our people to do any job.

Something else that concerns me is the lack of integration into British Life by many immigrants, multi culturalism is OK but multi nationalism and a lack of integration is a disaster.   The Nation is becoming very divided.


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## triple_bogey (Mar 28, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Tiger Woods, is he back?  Please.
		
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Stupid question, of course he's back................now back on topic! :thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 28, 2013)

Hey everybody take a look at me,
I've got street credibility,
I may not have a job,
But I have a good time,
With the boys that I meet "down on the line"
I said, I - DON'T - NEED - YOU
So you don't approve,
Well who asked you to?
HEY - JERK - YOU - WORK
This boy's got better things to do
Hell, 
I ain't never gonna work, get down in the dirt,
I choose, to cruise.
Gonna live my life, sharp as a knife,
I've found my groove and I just can't lose.
A.1. style from head to toe,
Cool cat flash gonna let you know,
I'm a soul boy - I'm a dole boy,
Take pleasure in leisure, I believe in joy!

Wham have the answer to everything! ​


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## Qwerty (Mar 28, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



Hey everybody take a look at me,
I've got street credibility,
I may not have a job,
But I have a good time,
With the boys that I meet "down on the line"
I said, I - DON'T - NEED - YOU
So you don't approve,
Well who asked you to?
HEY - JERK - YOU - WORK
This boy's got better things to do
Hell, 
I ain't never gonna work, get down in the dirt,
I choose, to cruise.
Gonna live my life, sharp as a knife,
I've found my groove and I just can't lose.
A.1. style from head to toe,
Cool cat flash gonna let you know,
I'm a soul boy - I'm a dole boy,
Take pleasure in leisure, I believe in joy!

Wham have the answer to everything! ​

Click to expand...

Youve got to love the Video, it's got to be the Cheesiest of all time 

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=BsyHQgiem8c&desktop_uri=/watch?v=BsyHQgiem8c


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## MarkA (Mar 29, 2013)

The issue here is no one minds immigrants like the Polish who came over to work.
However you tell me what Romanians and Bulgarians and Albanians ( basically third world countries) can offer besides organised crime and then tell me they are  prepared to pay taxes. All they want is what they can get!
Ps don't ever believe a Government White Paper!


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## sydney greenstreet (Mar 29, 2013)

Maybe if a wage was at a decent level it would not be better off to be on benefits than working.


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## drawboy (Mar 29, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know the figures for British folk migrating out of the UK.
I believe it is not very different to those coming in.

Just checked, over 400,000. Mainly to Spain.
		
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I do not think I will be far off saying that virtually everyone of those 400,000 will be self sufficient IE not releying on council housing, and benefits. I agree the country needs immigration but what the country does not need is more office cleaners,farm workers and pot washers/bar/restaurant staff. We have those here already but because they get paid more to stay at home they will not take those positions. We need to get our own off their bums and into these jobs by restricting their benefits. The dole was and is supposed to be a short term helping hand between jobs not a lifestyle choice for those leaving school and never contributing to the pot.


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## drawboy (Mar 29, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			they spend their wages here,though.And with our decreasing pool of workers, their kids will become workers,tax payers etc.
		
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And unfortunately due to the education they have received from here will leave school with the same qualifications as your Son/Daughter and then go out into the job market and compete for the same jobs thus reducing the chances of your offspring gaining employment. Sorry but that cannot be denied as it will happen.


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## drawboy (Mar 29, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



Hey everybody take a look at me,
I've got street credibility,
I may not have a job,
But I have a good time,
With the boys that I meet "down on the line"
I said, I - DON'T - NEED - YOU
So you don't approve,
Well who asked you to?
HEY - JERK - YOU - WORK
This boy's got better things to do
Hell, 
I ain't never gonna work, get down in the dirt,
I choose, to cruise.
Gonna live my life, sharp as a knife,
I've found my groove and I just can't lose.
A.1. style from head to toe,
Cool cat flash gonna let you know,
I'm a soul boy - I'm a dole boy,
Take pleasure in leisure, I believe in joy!

Wham have the answer to everything! ​

Click to expand...

Absolutely fantastic!!!
But also in the wise words of WHam if you are a Romainian farm worker Britain is

 Club Tropicana, drinks are free
Fun and sunshine, there's enough for everyone
All that's missing is the sea
But don't worry you can suntan.      Ok I went too far with the suntan bit, but you get the drift.


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## Captainron (Mar 29, 2013)

I am an immigrant. Came here in 2000 to play a bit of cricket and stayed on as I have always had a British passport.

Fact is that here you have free health care. Free schooling. A system that pays you when you don't/can't earn money. Housing benefits for those on low/no income. 

In many other countries when you are out of work you get nothing. Medical facilities are basic and inadequate. Schools cost money to go to and the education provided there very basic. 

When I first came to Leeds I was driven through Harehills which is a low income area with a large immigrant population. The guy who drove me said, 'I can't believe how these (insert an odious word) live in such a (4 letter word) hole!' I said 'where I come from these would be considered luxury for about 30 million people.'  The thing is you have OPPORTUNITY here. The majority of the world envies Britain. Of course people are going to want to come here because its way better than what they have where they come from.

Now those of you who have met me know that I am not going to win any beauty contests but prior to me leaving South Africa I was offered money to marry a very attractive girl so that she could move over here with me. This was a girl who came from a middle class white family and had a good education. 

If Britain had better weather you would have to put barbed wire around the place to keep everyone out!


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 29, 2013)

drawboy said:



			Absolutely fantastic!!!
But also in the wise words of WHam if you are a Romainian farm worker Britain is

 Club Tropicana, drinks are free
Fun and sunshine, there's enough for everyone
All that's missing is the sea
But don't worry you can suntan.      Ok I went too far with the suntan bit, but you get the drift.

Click to expand...

Things you never expect in life:Getting outquoted over Wham lyrics, with regards to immigration, on a golf forum. 
Love it.:whoo:


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2013)

Captainron said:



			I was *offered money* to marry a *very attractive girl* so that she could move over here with me. This was a girl who came from a middle class white family and *had a good education*.
		
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Isn't that what's know as a win win win situation?  Please don't tell me you said no?


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## MarkA (Mar 29, 2013)

You see OPORTUNITY ( and I applaud you for that) most see free schooling, benefits, housing and medical care. I have no problem with those who see opportunity and seek to contribute, my problem is with those who seek to take and take ( I include my own countrymen in that). We are seen as a soft touch and it is just wrong that we are expected to support immigrants from anywhere who are not trying to support themselves merely to sponge off the UK taxpayer,


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2013)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I live and work in Leith, Edinburgh.The area is well known as the centre of Sub-Indian continent immigration in the 70's/80's/90's...the two main streets, Leith Walk and Great Junction Street and known for the shops being ran/owned by Indians/Bangaldeshi/Pakistanis.
In the last 5 years, Leith has become the centre of the Polish influx.We now have Polish shops,bars,hairdressers etc,All paying tax, all working, all contributing to the pot and the local community.Leith is also very well known as being well populated by junkies, Trainspotting etc....cheers Irvine!

I see junkies everyday all day, drug dealers selling scripts, whole families reliant on govt handouts.To man,woman and child, they're all white,Scottish and at least 2/3rd generation Edinburgh.

The problem lies with the lazy indigenous people who refuse to work, collect various benefits and are coddled by the nanny state.The problem is not the immigration numbers, it's the lazy work shy locals who have a sense of entitlement endorsed by govt.
		
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Absolutely spot on Adi2


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2013)

MarkA said:



			The issue here is no one minds immigrants like the Polish who came over to work.
However you tell me what Romanians and Bulgarians and Albanians ( basically third world countries) can offer besides organised crime and then tell me they are  prepared to pay taxes. All they want is what they can get!
Ps don't ever believe a Government White Paper!
		
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Or The Daily Mail.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 29, 2013)

Officially we have 2.5 million unemployed [I actually believe the figure to be higher than this]... Until we have ZERO unemployment then the 'doors' should remain firmly shut... Lets get Britain working first then worry about the rest of the world second...


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## drawboy (Mar 29, 2013)

Romanians, Bulgarians and indeed Albanians earn very little in wages. Everyone knows this even immigration supporters. If they can scrape enough money together to get here when they do arrive how can they afford to pay rent in places like London or other major cities as that is where they will head for, even if and it is an if they can get minimum wage work? If they bring family which they will, they will hardly leave them in their respective countries,they will be entitled to medical, dental, and schooling. This costs money. They cannot possibly support themselves and will end up costing the tax payer. As a civilised country we will not be in a position to say no to these people and allow them to live on the streets with children it is inevitable that they will cost us money. When they do not find work and many will not where will they go? Will the government repatriate them or just allow them to access the benefit system? Of course they will allow them to access benefits. They have no choice in the matter. The Immigrants know this and will take advantage of this fact. That is my opinion. Why would anyone leave their home for a worse life than they currently have? No one does that. They know they will be looked after by the British tax payer.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or The Daily Mail.
		
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....


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Officially we have 2.5 million unemployed [I actually believe the figure to be higher than this]... Until we have ZERO unemployment then the 'doors' should remain firmly shut... Lets get Britain working first then worry about the rest of the world second...
		
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But what happens when the desperately hard working indigenous population don't want to take some of those pesky jobs that ensure you can get cheap food, as they are not paying well enough for them?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2013)

Was it just me that watched at the Olympic opening ceremony and was proud to be British.  Was it just me who was proud GB being one of the most tolerant and progressive societies in the world?  Was it just me who thought that it was only GB that could have an opening ceremony that could include lesbian kisses, the Sex Pistols, the NHS, the industrial revolution and a song by a band called **** Buttons (please mods do not mod me for this, they are a genuine group and they were played at the opening ceremony and heard by the the queen!).  Did the opening ceremony not show what was great about modern Britain?

We live in a multicutural and mostly tolerant society with a long tradition of social care which brings many benefits and of course problems.  And people will have a different view of whether the benefits our society brings over weighs the problems.  I am one one side of that argument and I would much rather live in GB than anywhere else that does not welcome people that are not born in that country.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Was it just me that watched at the Olympic opening ceremony and was proud to be British.  Was it just me who was proud GB being one of the most tolerant and progressive societies in the world?  Was it just me who thought that it was only GB that could have an opening ceremony that could include lesbian kisses, the Sex Pistols, the NHS, the industrial revolution and a song by a band called **** Buttons (please mods do not mod me for this, they are a genuine group and they were played at the opening ceremony and heard by the the queen!).  Did the opening ceremony not show what was great about modern Britain?

We live in a multicutural and mostly tolerant society with a long tradition of social care which brings many benefits and of course problems.  And people will have a different view of whether the benefits our society brings over weighs the problems.  I am one one side of that argument and I would much rather live in GB than anywhere else that does not welcome people that are not born in that country.
		
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No, it was not only you, It was also all the people that live here and love the country for what it is and what we have made it.  We created a National Health Service, not an International Health Service, we started an Industrial revolution through the hard work and determination of british people to improve their lives by sweat and toil, we stood firm against the threats of those that wanted domination over other countries and paid for our freedom with the lives of our forefathers.

It's true we live in a multicultural society, we were never asked if we wanted to live in such a society but the political elite decided that this is what we needed.  It's true we are a tolerant society but that tolerance is running very thin now as we see a country that is no longer national but multi national where cultures decide not to integrate but stay 'foreign'' in their outlook, often refusing to learn the language of their new homeland.

We have always welcomed people from other countries but our welcome has limits when it starts to erode the fabric of our society.  In short, there are just too many people here and we do not have the money, space or resource to support this growth any longer. 

Regarding the free movement of labour in the EU, it is a worthy commitment but it has a major flaw.  Unless countries joining the EU have a certain level of wealth and social security then the movement of labour will encourage unsustainable movements of people looking only to take advantage of the social benefits on offer from wealthier countries.  This is not what the open borders was designed for.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 29, 2013)

Saw this and it made me think about supposed workshy Brits....

http://huff.to/10jzIpt


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## MegaSteve (Mar 29, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			But what happens when the desperately hard working indigenous population don't want to take some of those pesky jobs that ensure you can get cheap food, as they are not paying well enough for them?
		
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That in its own deeply sarcastic way is really quite offensive and quite possibly racist to boot...


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## stevie_r (Mar 29, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			No, it was not only you, It was also all the people that live here and love the country for what it is and what we have made it.  We created a National Health Service, not an International Health Service, we started an Industrial revolution through the hard work and determination of british people to improve their lives by sweat and toil, we stood firm against the threats of those that wanted domination over other countries and paid for our freedom with the lives of our forefathers.

It's true we live in a multicultural society, we were never asked if we wanted to live in such a society but the political elite decided that this is what we needed.  It's true we are a tolerant society but that tolerance is running very thin now as we see a country that is no longer national but multi national where cultures decide not to integrate but stay 'foreign'' in their outlook, often refusing to learn the language of their new homeland.

We have always welcomed people from other countries but our welcome has limits when it starts to erode the fabric of our society.  In short, there are just too many people here and we do not have the money, space or resource to support this growth any longer. 

Regarding the free movement of labour in the EU, it is a worthy commitment but it has a major flaw.  Unless countries joining the EU have a certain level of wealth and social security then the movement of labour will encourage unsustainable movements of people looking only to take advantage of the social benefits on offer from wealthier countries.  This is not what the open borders was designed for.
		
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I would find it difficult to argue with any of that.


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## deanobillquay (Mar 29, 2013)

Should be like Australia with the points system etc. for getting in. Too much of an easy touch this country now.


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## drawboy (Mar 29, 2013)

I agree with that. The one thing Australia has going for it is that it is far enough away from the absolute disaster that is Europe.


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## Iaing (Mar 29, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Officially we have 2.5 million unemployed [I actually believe the figure to be higher than this]... Until we have ZERO unemployment then the 'doors' should remain firmly shut... Lets get Britain working first then worry about the rest of the world second...
		
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Unfortunately, a large proportion of the 2.5 million are unemployable.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2013)

Iaing said:



			Unfortunately, a large proportion of the 2.5 million are unemployable.
		
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Lets not add to it.


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## Iaing (Mar 29, 2013)

Agreed.


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## In_The_Rough (Mar 29, 2013)

Been reading this right from the start and some very valid points are made. Socketrockets post has to be the best of the lot I cannot argue with a word he has said. Drawboy is also right when he quotes Australia, I have old school pals that live and work in Oz and have been over many times and can see why people are trying to go there as it is a stunning place and the lifestyle is second to none but it is a real tough place to get into as I have looked into it myself and hopefully when I have completed my BA Hons I will stand a chance. Anyone trying to get into the country that does not meet the criteria are put on the next available plane and sent back from whence they came, none of this holding centre rubbish that we have where they end up absconding and never seen again. Also I agree with Drawboys point about Oz being away from Europe being a bonus as it is a real mess and I personally cannot see it ever getting better as the problems are to far gone. The only way to curb immigration properly is to scrap the benefits system altogether which will never happen as it is a vote loser for the political parties. There are to many people on the dole both immigrants and non immigrants that simply refuse to work, we have to start making these people take jobs or they get all benefits stopped.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 29, 2013)

Iaing said:



			Unfortunately, a large proportion of the 2.5 million are unemployable.
		
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Not really sure how you would define 'unemployable'....

If you mean work shy then I believe that can be dealt with...


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## tyke (Mar 30, 2013)

Coming from a completely different angle, as a serving prison officer, then why are so many of these so called hard working eastern europeans residing at her majestys pleasure?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			That in its own deeply sarcastic way is really quite offensive and quite possibly racist to boot...
		
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Some of my best friends are white........


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## drawboy (Mar 30, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Some of my best friends are white........
		
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Lets not even begin to go there chaps, reign it in, that one is only going to end in a world of pain for everyone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 30, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Saw this and it made me think about supposed workshy Brits....

http://huff.to/10jzIpt

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Steady on Dodger.......they have to be seen to be seeking work to get benefit.

I have interviewed many such people and have enough material to write about a dozen episodes of a comedy show. Well those who turned up that is.


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## PieMan (Mar 30, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			In my opinion it's nothing to do with immigrants working, it's that the country is overpopulated.  We already have enough people in the country to do the work, what we need to do is stop paying benefits to those that refuse to do it, we then wont need to have more people coming here and putting the countries resources under stress.  We have the best Universities and schools in the world, we should be able to train our people to do any job.

Something else that concerns me is the lack of integration into British Life by many immigrants, multi culturalism is OK but multi nationalism and a lack of integration is a disaster.   The Nation is becoming very divided.
		
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Looks pretty much spot on to me!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 30, 2013)

I always crack up when folk from down south say the 'country' is overpopulated.
Try living where I do where the population is 9 people per square mile.
5 million folk in Scotland, 60 million in England.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always crack up when folk from down south say the 'country' is overpopulated.
Try living where I do where the population is 9 people per square mile.
5 million folk in Scotland, 60 million in England.
		
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Try living in London, Birmingham, leicester or Luton, you would soon crack up.  What should we do then, send the masses to live on Scottish mountains.   You know well what people mean when they say 'country' should they lay out a disclaimer for Dartmoor, the Peak district, Cumbria, the New Forest, East Herefordshire, Mid Wales etc.   Why  does it always have to come down to Scotland!


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Try living in London, Birmingham, leicester or Luton, you would soon crack up.

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Or Japan?

Or North of East Coast of US?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Or Japan?

Or North of East Coast of US?
		
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Exactly, overcrowded  but Alaska and the central Japanese mountains are pretty empty .


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## Iaing (Mar 31, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Not really sure how you would define 'unemployable'....

If you mean work shy then I believe that can be dealt with...
		
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I don't really mean work shy or lazy although that is of course a factor.

What I mean is:

The inability to read/write/count
The inability to get through the working day without taking drugs/alcohol
The inability to work without stealing from the employer or their fellow workers
The inability to work unless supervised 100% of the time.

I've experienced all of the above and will now only hire on personal recommendation.

To hell with giving the wasters a chance, the business is too important.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 31, 2013)

There is a family I know local to me , a single mother in her early 50's , her 2 staffy dogs, 2 sons in their early-mid 20's living in a 3 bed terrace supplied by the housing association.

The mum is a carer, doing the rounds looking after the elderly in their own homes, she is fine, a good woman doing what she can, it's her sons who worry me

Both unemployed, no qualifications and no desire to get any. They spend their time at home locked away in the days and the nights out with their mates in the pub.

They insist on Mohican hairstyles, big ring things in their ears, piercings and tattoos . I was there the other day fixing a PC and asked the youngest what he wanted to do with his life and he said he wanted a job, but nobody would give him one. I said I wasn't surprised and asked him to put himself in the shoes of an employer, then go look in the mirror. Would he employ someone who looks like you?

Got a load of spout about individuality and freedom and human rights etc for my trouble 

Now this guy is perfectly capable of work, he is being paid to stay at home, he gets beer money
Oh yes his 17 year old girlfriend is expecting and they are hoping to get their own council place 

I asked him how much cash he had in his pocket, he said Â£75
So I suggested him and his brother go down to Wickes, buy a ladder and some buckets and start cleaning windows

I'm not going to repeat the reply, but this is the real problem in this country


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## stevie_r (Mar 31, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			There is a family I know local to me , a single mother in her early 50's , her 2 staffy dogs, 2 sons in their early-mid 20's living in a 3 bed terrace supplied by the housing association.

The mum is a carer, doing the rounds looking after the elderly in their own homes, she is fine, a good woman doing what she can, it's her sons who worry me

Both unemployed, no qualifications and no desire to get any. They spend their time at home locked away in the days and the nights out with their mates in the pub.

They insist on Mohican hairstyles, big ring things in their ears, piercings and tattoos . I was there the other day fixing a PC and asked the youngest what he wanted to do with his life and he said he wanted a job, but nobody would give him one. I said I wasn't surprised and asked him to put himself in the shoes of an employer, then go look in the mirror. Would he employ someone who looks like you?

Got a load of spout about individuality and freedom and human rights etc for my trouble 

Now this guy is perfectly capable of work, he is being paid to stay at home, he gets beer money
Oh yes his 17 year old girlfriend is expecting and they are hoping to get their own council place 

I asked him how much cash he had in his pocket, he said Â£75
So I suggested him and his brother go down to Wickes, buy a ladder and some buckets and start cleaning windows

I'm not going to repeat the reply, but this is the real problem in this country
		
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I'm confused as to the relevance of the dogs in this story


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 31, 2013)

Just setting the scene
Why pick out 1 sentence?


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## stevie_r (Mar 31, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just setting the scene
Why pick out 1 sentence?
		
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Because I couldn't see any relevance in even mentioning dogs let alone the breed, it just smacked a bit of stereotyping TBH mate


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 31, 2013)

Well isn't that what I'm talking about
A work shy , unemployable, benefit  reliant ,stereotype 
That is replicated all over the country

Ok forget the dogs , they don't matter,


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## JustOne (Mar 31, 2013)

Some terribly ignorant, racist and bigoted people/posts in this thread - Happy Easter!


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## stevie_r (Mar 31, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok forget the dogs , they don't matter,
		
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cool


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## drawboy (Mar 31, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Some terribly ignorant, racist and bigoted people/posts in this thread - Happy Easter!
		
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You have just given your opinion on other peoples opinions. Who is too say who is right?  We all like to think it is our opinion that counts though don't we. Happy Easter.


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## JustOne (Mar 31, 2013)

drawboy said:



			You have just given your opinion on other peoples opinions. Who is too say who is right?  We all like to think it is our opinion that counts though don't we. Happy Easter.
		
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Indeed. We are entitled to opinion and those opinions show the person we are, not whether someone is right or not. Happy Christmas


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## drawboy (Mar 31, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Indeed. We are entitled to opinion and those opinions show the person we are, not whether someone is right or not. Happy Christmas 
Then it would seem you and probably everyone who has contributed one way or another to this thread is happy within their own skins. Happy Gilmore 

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## JustOne (Mar 31, 2013)

drawboy said:



			Then it would seem you and probably everyone who has contributed one way or another to this thread is happy within their own skins. Happy Gilmore 

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Correct. I'm happy with my opinion.

Happy Sausage! :thup:


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## Sweep (Apr 1, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			No, it was not only you, It was also all the people that live here and love the country for what it is and what we have made it.  We created a National Health Service, not an International Health Service, we started an Industrial revolution through the hard work and determination of british people to improve their lives by sweat and toil, we stood firm against the threats of those that wanted domination over other countries and paid for our freedom with the lives of our forefathers.

It's true we live in a multicultural society, we were never asked if we wanted to live in such a society but the political elite decided that this is what we needed.  It's true we are a tolerant society but that tolerance is running very thin now as we see a country that is no longer national but multi national where cultures decide not to integrate but stay 'foreign'' in their outlook, often refusing to learn the language of their new homeland.

We have always welcomed people from other countries but our welcome has limits when it starts to erode the fabric of our society.  In short, there are just too many people here and we do not have the money, space or resource to support this growth any longer. 

Regarding the free movement of labour in the EU, it is a worthy commitment but it has a major flaw.  Unless countries joining the EU have a certain level of wealth and social security then the movement of labour will encourage unsustainable movements of people looking only to take advantage of the social benefits on offer from wealthier countries.  This is not what the open borders was designed for.
		
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A most excellent post


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## Sweep (Apr 1, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always crack up when folk from down south say the 'country' is overpopulated.
Try living where I do where the population is 9 people per square mile.
5 million folk in Scotland, 60 million in England.
		
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Scotland? Again? Best not hope you vote for independence then. If you manage to keep your membership of the EU you will have to take your fair share of migrants.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Some terribly ignorant, racist and bigoted people/posts in this thread - Happy Easter!
		
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Really?   Does having a different opinion to you make people ignorant/racist /bigoted.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Scotland? Again? Best not hope you vote for independence then. If you manage to keep your membership of the EU you will have to take your fair share of migrants.
		
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We do that already.
Highland and Island hotels could not manage without the Oz/NZ and Eastern European staff.


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## sydney greenstreet (Apr 1, 2013)

Sweep said:



			Scotland? Again? Best not hope you vote for independence then. If you manage to keep your membership of the EU you will have to take your fair share of migrants.
		
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I think you will find that this is not the Daily Mail forum.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2013)

sydney greenstreet said:



			I think you will find that this is not the Daily Mail forum. 

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It's not the Guardian either


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## sydney greenstreet (Apr 1, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not the Guardian either 

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I do not read either


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## JustOne (Apr 1, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Really?   Does having a different opinion to you make people ignorant/racist /bigoted.  

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No. Only if they are ignorant/racist /bigoted opinions of course.

..... left out xenophobic, oops


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2013)

JustOne said:



			No. Only if they are ignorant/racist /bigoted opinions of course.

..... left out xenophobic, oops 

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In your opinion of course.    Oops, left out parochial


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## JustOne (Apr 1, 2013)

We can discuss some of the posts (yours included) if you like?

... and we could do it without name calling just like proper adults  LOL


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2013)

JustOne said:



			We can discuss some of the posts (yours included) if you like?

... and we could do it without name calling just like proper adults  LOL
		
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James, considering the current situation with the Forum I think that's not a god idea.   If you want to PM me your points I would be quite happy to discuss.


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2013)

Cracking discussion. Best post was from the "immigrant" his word, from South Africa. Sums it all up.  also the "immigrants" from Oz and NZ up in Scotland are only there on a year out from study and will go back, once sick of the constant cold and rain.


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