# Swing Question - Slow Mo' Video included



## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

Looking for a little help from the forum swing boffins on something I'm working on at the minute.

Below is a slow motion video of my swing, taken during my last lesson.

On the whole I'm pretty happy with my swing at the minute, however I have a slight issue I'm looking to discuss.

The video below, as I said was taken during my last lesson and highlights the issue I'd like to discuss.

[video=youtube;HXPrPa047Eg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXPrPa047Eg[/video]

(Swing begins at 0.35 seconds)

In the above video, the bay my swing was filmed in is directly in line with the left edge of a target green at the range.

When I was hitting the ball well, the ball was starting at the middle of the target green an turning over right to left to my target at the left edge.

When my swing wasn't quite on (See Video), the ball starts straight at my target (Left edge of green), then turns over by the same amount (5 yards), missing the green left by the said amount.

I've spent the last 8 weeks working through keeping my arms/shoulders passive while my hips begin my downswing by rotating my weight forward.

My pro has given me a 'station' to set up involving an alignment rod (Pointing to 1 o'Clock) and a tee peg just in front of the ball and to the right to try and encourage me to swing a little more out as opposed to straight to and left of target. This is what I'm currently working on at the range and at home.

I'll be honest, the difference in feel between a good shot and bad (Starting right as opposed to straight) doesn't feel significant through the swing. It's not something I can put my finger on, but on a bad shot I feel like my shoulders are turning through too quickly, possibly an old habit of trying to hit the ball a little harder (Tempo issue?)

Any thoughts you good people have on the above are greatly appreciated :thup:


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## Qwerty (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm no expert Gareth but I'd be looking at creating some lag on the downswing.


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## bluewolf (Mar 11, 2015)

Qwerty said:



			I'm no expert Gareth but I'd be looking at creating some lag on the downswing.
		
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Agreed. No disrespect meant, but would I be right in thinking that you weren't overly long? I'm definitely no expert, but could the pull left be indicative of a pull from the top, resulting in a slight Out to In swing with a slightly closed face?


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## Wabinez (Mar 11, 2015)

It looks like (to me) you come slightly over the top to the ball, which could result in the slight pull, especially if with a neutral club face.  It's not a massive amount, but it doesnt look as if the plane going back, is the same as the plane coming through.  When the swing is on, the slight out-to-in may be reduced, but when 'off' the tendency is there. Would you not want to pull the club downwards slightly, create some lag, and deliver the ball more consistently from the inside, giving you the result you are after


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## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

Qwerty said:



			I'm no expert Gareth but I'd be looking at creating some lag on the downswing.
		
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Is this not enough lag? Genuine question.


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2015)

You are out to in in relation to your backswing but not to the target.
Your backswing is quite flat (as you know) so when you have a slight throw, it's better on plane coming down (the important bit).
If you were out to in to the target, the clubhead would be in or close to the circle, as it happens, it's behind the yellow line which is never a bad thing




I'd say you're on the right track so try and resist the urge to fiddle with things just for the sake of fiddling.
Go out and play lots of golf and groove it.


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## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Agreed. No disrespect meant, but would I be right in thinking that you weren't overly long? I'm definitely no expert, but could the pull left be indicative of a pull from the top, resulting in a slight Out to In swing with a slightly closed face?
		
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I'm not tour long by any standards. 150 yard 7 iron is about right.

As I said in the OP, the video above is one of the poorer swings where the ball starts straight then draws as opposed to right with a draw.

It'd be a but daft putting video up of a good swing and asking to fix my bad shot 

I do take your point(s) though :thup:


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2015)

Gareth said:



View attachment 14335

View attachment 14337

View attachment 14338


Is this not enough lag? Genuine question.
		
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The lag is the angle formed by the shaft and the LEFT forearm


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## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

bobmac said:



			You are out to in in relation to your backswing but not to the target.
Your backswing is quite flat (as you know) so when you have a slight throw, it's better on plane coming down (the important bit).
If you were out to in to the target, the clubhead would be in or close to the circle, as it happens, it's behind the yellow line which is never a bad thing

View attachment 14336


I'd say you're on the right track so try and resist the urge to fiddle with things just for the sake of fiddling.
Go out and play lots of golf and groove it.
		
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Thanks you for your input Bob.

I take understand your comment re the throw and the downswing. My pro made the same comment as his swing is also flat, with a little throw. 

I'm pretty sure my issue comes from trying to 'hit' the ball as opposed to keeping the same tempo and trusting my swing to get the job done.

I also have a tenancy to have an early peek and not keep my eye on the ball into impact.

Thanks again Bob. Appreciated as always :thup:


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## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

bobmac said:



			The lag is the angle formed by the shaft and the LEFT forearm
		
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I could do with a bit more then :rofl:


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## pendodave (Mar 11, 2015)

**disclaimer, I'm a hacker.

I know that they mean about the lag. I think it's more than just the angle between shaft and wrist, but maybe the way the hips and lower body might not be creating as much leverage as they could. In the three stills that you show, your legs and hips are at 90 degrees to the target, whereas tour swings (I know, but bear with me) are more open at this point and create more dynamism as a conseuence. But this is something that someone with a knowledge of biomechanics and the golf swing would be better off addressing.

On a completely unrelated matter, is this exhibit 'a' in the 'how long should I stand over the ball thread'....


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 11, 2015)

Looks to me as if the first move on the downswing is to throw the right shoulder slightly outside the swing plane, something I do all the time (so does Miguel Angel Jiminez, so you're in good company). I've tried to catch the backswing & downswing at the same point, although I think you can see it more clearly in the video, just as the club changes direction. The downswing definitely follows a more outside path than the backswing. Pros are more likely to do the reverse of this, the first move on the downswing being to slip the club onto an inside path.

I'm not a pro but it's the sort of thing I see many amateur golfers doing, it's just such a natural thing to do.


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## garyinderry (Mar 11, 2015)

[video=youtube;QL_6M_xZvq0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0[/video]


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## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

pendodave said:



			**disclaimer, I'm a hacker.

I know that they mean about the lag. I think it's more than just the angle between shaft and wrist, but maybe the way the hips and lower body might not be creating as much leverage as they could. In the three stills that you show, your legs and hips are at 90 degrees to the target, whereas tour swings (I know, but bear with me) are more open at this point and create more dynamism as a conseuence. But this is something that someone with a knowledge of biomechanics and the golf swing would be better off addressing.

*On a completely unrelated matter, is this exhibit 'a' in the 'how long should I stand over the ball thread'*....
		
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Gimme a break!!!


It's in slow motion :rofl:


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## pendodave (Mar 11, 2015)

Gareth said:



			Gimme a break!!!


It's in slow motion :rofl:
		
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Busted !!

Many many apologies !!


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## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Looks to me as if the first move on the downswing is to throw the right shoulder slightly outside the swing plane, something I do all the time (so does Miguel Angel Jiminez, so you're in good company). I've tried to catch the backswing & downswing at the same point, although I think you can see it more clearly in the video, just as the club changes direction. The downswing definitely follows a more outside path than the backswing. Pros are more likely to do the reverse of this, the first move on the downswing being to slip the club onto an inside path.

I'm not a pro but it's the sort of thing I see many amateur golfers doing, it's just such a natural thing to do.

View attachment 14340

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I agree M.I.B.

Bob's post (#6) answers that better than I ever could


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## Maninblack4612 (Mar 11, 2015)

Gareth said:



			I agree M.I.B.

Bob's post (#6) answers that better than I ever could 

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I'd swop swings, yours for mine!


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2015)

Why pay heaps of dosh for a Pro to advise/change you, then come on here and, in effect, question what he is getting you to do? Better, imo, to email him with the question, as I'm sure he will have a simple answer!

Can't see the vid as I'm on my slow, backup laptop, but, from the still pics, there doesn't seem to be much lower body involvement at all. Isn't that something that you are trying to improve?

Keep listening to your coach (and checking with him if in doubt) though!


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## One Planer (Mar 11, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Why pay heaps of dosh for a Pro to advise/change you, then come on here and, in effect, question what he is getting you to do? Better, imo, to email him with the question, as I'm sure he will have a simple answer!

Can't see the vid as I'm on my slow, backup laptop, but, from the still pics, there doesn't seem to be much lower body involvement at all. Isn't that something that you are trying to improve?

Keep listening to your coach (and checking with him if in doubt) though!
		
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Fairly sensible advice :thup:


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## One Planer (Apr 5, 2015)

Thread update. 

I've spent the last month following Bobs advice and grooving what I had using the swing station my pro suggested I set up. 

Here is my swing from my last lesson,  and for once, it was one of my better shots 

[video]https://youtu.be/VtIldAvrJ1M[/video]

(Swing starts at 0.30 seconds in)

I put a much better swing on the ball in this video and manged to shallow the shaft out a little more than I have before:






I hit my, now more usual, draw with the ball starting right and moving back as opposed to the one in the initial post which starts fractionally too straight before turning over.

The only change suggested during my last lesson was a fractionally weaker grip,  mainly my right hand to help neutralise some of the curve on my draw. 

Apparently it was curving a little too much for a 7 iron 

The grip change will also help me have more of a controlled miss once it's grooved and on a Saturdays round,  I'm in full agreement.


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## garyinderry (Apr 5, 2015)

Video not working G


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## One Planer (Apr 5, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Video not working G
		
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Try now mush :thup:


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## brendy (Apr 5, 2015)

Its too staid G, you need arms flailing with much more lag and make ooosh noises on the through swing .


Seriously though, you dont have much lag there, more of an arms movement rather than allowing the wrists to uncock later on the downswing. My swing has many flaws but does have a little lag.







I await the shooting down from real experts.


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## One Planer (Apr 6, 2015)

brendy said:



			Its too staid G, you need arms flailing with much more lag and make ooosh noises on the through swing .


Seriously though, you dont have much lag there, more of an arms movement rather than allowing the wrists to uncock later on the downswing. My swing has many flaws but does have a little lag.







I await the shooting down from real experts.
		
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Probably true pal but I'm happy to groove what I have and make changes over the winter of season.


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## JustOne (Apr 6, 2015)

brendy said:



			Its too staid G, you need arms flailing with much more lag and make ooosh noises on the through swing .


Seriously though, you dont have much lag there, more of an arms movement rather than allowing the wrists to uncock later on the downswing. My swing has many flaws but does have a little lag.







I await the shooting down from real experts.
		
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That could be the worst condition tee box I've ever seen!!!!


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## brendy (Apr 6, 2015)

JustOne said:



			That could be the worst condition tee box I've ever seen!!!! 

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Twas a temp teebox on one of the greatest golf complexes youll ever see JO.


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## garyinderry (Apr 6, 2015)

Looks fine to me Gareth.  Lag is overrated anyway. 


Where is that brendy?


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2015)

Gareth said:



			Probably true pal but I'm happy to groove what I have and make changes over the winter of season.
		
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You could try 'the pump drill' throughout the season though. Not something that will significantly disturb the rest of the swing, but is a great way to improve lag!


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2015)

When you increase Lag you also increase the angle of attack, the speed of the swing and the swing path...3 of the 5 laws in golf so it does have a major affect on the game.

When golfers try and increase their lag they invariably do it by hitting down on the ball which tends to throw the club to the outside in the transition...........exactly what Gareth is trying to get away from.
My advice, if asked, would be to leave the lag alone and stick with concentrating on the swing path.


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## brendy (Apr 6, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Looks fine to me Gareth.  Lag is overrated anyway. 


Where is that brendy?
		
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7th glashedy a few weeks ago, new complex built round the back of the green finished and looking well but were doing a little work on teebox so had us on one temp teebox. love going up there, weather has always been great too.

Anyway, on topic,  is it possible to have a powerful repeatable swing without lag Bob? ( serious question)


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2015)

brendy said:



			Anyway, on topic,  is it possible to have a powerful repeatable swing without lag Bob? ( serious question)
		
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I dont see how you could create much clubhead speed without any lag. Your left arm/club shaft would be in a straight line.


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## brendy (Apr 6, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I dont see how you could create much clubhead speed without any lag. Your left arm/club shaft would be in a straight line.
		
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When I say without, I mean a fairly low lag swing, I wasnt being facetious


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2015)

The more lag you have the more you need to rely on timing and strength.
So it's a balance of as much lag as you can control repeatedly.
That's why the shorter hitters are normally on the fairway.


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## One Planer (Apr 6, 2015)

bobmac said:



			The more lag you have the more you need to rely on timing and strength.
So it's a balance of as much lag as you can control repeatedly.
That's why the shorter hitters are normally on the fairway.
		
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So it's a balancing act between your body strength and timing?


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## brendy (Apr 6, 2015)

Gareth said:



			So it's a balancing act between your body strength and timing?
		
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Sounds simple enough then..


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## MadAdey (Apr 7, 2015)

I am not one to comment on peoples swings because I am happy to admit to not really too much about them. I am from the grip it and rip crew where I grab a club, clear my mind and just hit it without thinking too much about what is going on. But after this talk of lag it got me thinking, so I pulled up a vid and took a snap of the downswing. Just a question, is this what you mean when you talk about creating lag in the downswing?


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## bobmac (Apr 7, 2015)

That's spot on Adey, that's why you hit it so far.
You've maintained the angle between your left arm and shaft for well into the downswing.
A shorter hitter would be on the red line at that stage


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## MadAdey (Apr 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			That's spot on Adey, that's why you hit it so far.
You've maintained the angle between your left arm and shaft for well into the downswing.
A shorter hitter would be on the red line at that stage

View attachment 14816

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Cheers Bob, I was just wondering when people started talking hitting it further with more lag. So I had a look at my swing, I would show you the complete video but I'm afraid of the abuse I would get for the backswing.....


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## bobmac (Apr 7, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			but I'm afraid of the abuse I would get for the backswing.....

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You only have to reply with three words.......................

TWO POINT EIGHT


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## MadAdey (Apr 7, 2015)

bobmac said:



			You only have to reply with three words.......................

TWO POINT EIGHT



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Or my favorite excuse for my backswing is...................Jim Furyk


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## JustOne (Apr 7, 2015)

brendy said:



			When I say without, I mean a fairly low lag swing, I wasnt being facetious 

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There are lots of golfers with crap swings, even down as low as 5 h/cap, but beyond that is tricky because their swings aren't good enough to consistently return low scores.

Contrary to Bobs reply I'd suggest the more lag you have the LESS you rely on timing (as you don't need to time the flip) but only to an extent of having waaay too much lag whereby you struggle simply to get the ball airborne but agree with "So it's a balance of as much lag as you can control repeatedly".

Adey... how the hell did you get to 2.8? can you BUY h/caps in America?


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## MadAdey (Apr 7, 2015)

JustOne said:



			There are lots of golfers with crap swings, even down as low as 5 h/cap, but beyond that is tricky because their swings aren't good enough to consistently return low scores.

Contrary to Bobs reply I'd suggest the more lag you have the LESS you rely on timing (as you don't need to time the flip) but only to an extent of having waaay too much lag whereby you struggle simply to get the ball airborne but agree with "So it's a balance of as much lag as you can control repeatedly".

Adey... how the hell did you get to 2.8? can you BUY h/caps in America? 

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Nicer weather, a new swing that was in the process of bedding in just before leaving the UK that is working a treat and a driver that I can't help but hit long and straight (that's put the curse on it now). 

What Gareth has wrong looks like what I had wrong before starting my lessons last year. I was told I was throwing the clubhead  and got shown replays of my swing to show how I was throwing the club from the top and when I got it right I would rip my hands through and generate power that way. Flip side was I relied too much on near perfect timing so when my swing was off it could be a horror show. 

What I was told is to imagine a long needle coming out of the butt of the club and you are trying to stab the ball with it. Thinking like that from the top of the swing has stopped me from throwing the clubhead and now I drive my hands down and that has created what you and Bob are referring to as 'lag'.


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## garyinderry (Apr 7, 2015)

Aidy get that swing up so we can all copy this power move backswing !!


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## brendy (Apr 7, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			What I was told is to imagine a long needle coming out of the butt of the club and you are trying to stab the ball with it.
		
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Would you believe that this line quoted fixed my shanks around 6 months ago? My half shots are now PG rated, for over 3 years they were "18" horror clips.


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## MadAdey (Apr 7, 2015)

brendy said:



			Would you believe that this line quoted fixed my shanks around 6 months ago? My half shots are now PG rated, for over 3 years they were "18" horror clips.
		
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I find golf so much easier to learn when it is described to me like this. I can see the needle stabbing the ball, so it is easier to let my body figure out how to move to hit the ball, rather than a text book walking me through it step by step.


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