# London Bridge incident



## Tashyboy (Jun 3, 2017)

News just breaking re an incident on London Bridge re another vehicle and pedestrians. Early days but don't sound good at all.

mods can you stick this in oob please


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## Stuart_C (Jun 3, 2017)

Doesn't sound good this.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

They are attacking people in other places now.


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## huds1475 (Jun 4, 2017)

Think they'll not be active for long once the SAS hit the ground.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Jun 4, 2017)

Not sure how you will ever stop these type of incidents but the people behind them need to be eliminated asap


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## Fish (Jun 4, 2017)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			Not sure how you will ever stop these type of incidents but the people behind them need to be eliminated asap
		
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Although there was multiple stabbings in Borough Market after a van drove into people on London bridge, the 3 terrorists/murderers were quickly shot and taken out!

They were wearing hoax suicide vest also!

These kind of attacks are unstoppable but with armed transport police, armed police coasting around the capital along with other cities, the reaction to this attack was swift and effective.  

Watching some of the footage the police are well drilled now in getting everyone to 'get down' to the ground and containing some areas and suppressing a certain amount of panic and running, this helps massively to contain certain areas and then have those people leave in a more controlled manner with their hands in the air.  

These kind of individuals are almost kamikaze style terrorists as they will know that in these kind of raw attacks, which are slightly different to a well planned suicide bomber, as these murderers will be shot and killed but it's a case of how many they can kill before being killed themselves!


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## richy (Jun 4, 2017)

Fish said:



			Although there was multiple stabbings in Borough Market after a van drove into people on London bridge, the 3 terrorists/murderers were quickly shot and taken out!

They were wearing hoax suicide vest also!

These kind of attacks are unstoppable but with armed transport police, armed police coasting around the capital along with other cities, the reaction to this attack was swift and effective.  

Watching some of the footage the police are well drilled now in getting everyone to 'get down' to the ground and containing some areas and suppressing a certain amount of panic and running, this helps massively to contain certain areas and then have those people leave in a more controlled manner with their hands in the air.  

These kind of individuals are almost kamikaze style terrorists as they will know that in these kind of raw attacks, which are slightly different to a well planned suicide bomber, as these murderers will be shot and killed but it's a case of how many they can kill before being killed themselves!
		
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8 minutes from the first 999 call was the response time which is really good. 

As more stories come out it gets more and more shocking.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

Just awful, worrying it was 3 working together!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 4, 2017)

The problem is how do you stop this type of attack from happening, 

Bridges seem to have become a focal point, so can they put concrete/metal bollards all the way down to separate the road and pavement, so they cant drive on the pavement?

Realise that this will just move the problem along , so they will find another weak point, but its a relatively simple measure that will save lives.

Thoughts with those affected


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## sawtooth (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The problem is how do you stop this type of attack from happening, 

Bridges seem to have become a focal point, so can they put concrete/metal bollards all the way down to separate the road and pavement, so they cant drive on the pavement?

Realise that this will just move the problem along , so they will find another weak point, but its a relatively simple measure that will save lives.

Thoughts with those affected 

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You can't really mate.

Maybe in years to come technology will provide a solution. In a world of self driving vehicles where safe pedestrianised areas are geofenced to prevent vehicular access?

Better still impregnate newborn babies with a GPS device that will self destruct when behind the wheel of a vehicle travelling where it shouldn't be! &#128512;&#128077;


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## User62651 (Jun 4, 2017)

When the enemy comes from within (unconfirmed), really very little that can be done to prevent. 
Usual noises this morning from police about Cobra meetings, quick armed police response times and public heroes and with a visible police presence/closed off areas which are all designed to try and give public reassurance but doesn't help those affected by the horror or stop it happening again when it's carried out with just cars and knives. Not reassuring at all really.
Really grim and thoughts with those affected. 

PM announcement shortly.


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## Fish (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The problem is how do you stop this type of attack from happening, 

Bridges seem to have become a focal point, so can they put concrete/metal bollards all the way down to separate the road and pavement, so they cant drive on the pavement?

Realise that this will just move the problem along , so they will find another weak point, but its a relatively simple measure that will save lives.

Thoughts with those affected 

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You can't prevent acts like this unless people close to them become aware of their potential acts of terror and report it. 

unfortunately becoming known to have reported someone from within their community could be dangerous for them also, so it would be pretty rare to see this happen. 

We can make it as difficult as possible to deter these kind of attacks where the use of vehicles is becoming a weapon, you do see quite a few bollards along some walkways in London and the kerbs are also very high in parts.  

I'd like to see more of the high concaved kerbs where it's impossible to mount a vehicle, but as has been said, the attacks would simply move to a more softer target. 

If all these 3 terrorists once known end up again being British born, then its more substance and evidence for me to radicalise our laws. 

In that, had they been on a temporary passport because their parents had moved here from the Middle East, who'd also be on temp passports, then all family members associated to them are deported out to where they (the parents) originally came from as it's obvious they can't and don't accept our way of western life and laws so they fully forfeit the right stay here.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2017)

Fish said:



			You can't prevent acts like this unless people close to them become aware of their potential acts of terror and report it. 

unfortunately becoming known to have reported someone from within their community could be dangerous for them also, so it would be pretty rare to see this happen. 

We can make it as difficult as possible to deter these kind of attacks where the use of vehicles is becoming a weapon, you do see quite a few bollards along some walkways in London and the kerbs are also very high in parts.  

I'd like to see more of the high concaved kerbs where it's impossible to mount a vehicle, but as has been said, the attacks would simply move to a more softer target. 

*If* *all these 3 terrorists once known end up again being British born*, then its more substance and evidence for me to radicalise our laws. 

*In that, had they been on a temporary passport because their parents had moved here from the Middle East, who'd also be on temp passports, then all family members associated to them are deported out to where they (the parents) originally came from as it's obvious they can't and don't accept our way of western life and laws so they fully forfeit the right stay here.*

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Perhaps we can wait to copy/paste the posts from the Manchester thread until we know the facts?


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## Stuart_C (Jun 4, 2017)

Thoughts are with the Victims and their families today. So so sad.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Perhaps we can wait to copy/paste the posts from the Manchester thread until we know the facts?
		
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I think we know the facts. people are dead and injured by terrorists.


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## guest100718 (Jun 4, 2017)

Fish said:



			You can't prevent acts like this unless people close to them become aware of their potential acts of terror and report it. 

unfortunately becoming known to have reported someone from within their community could be dangerous for them also, so it would be pretty rare to see this happen. 

We can make it as difficult as possible to deter these kind of attacks where the use of vehicles is becoming a weapon, you do see quite a few bollards along some walkways in London and the kerbs are also very high in parts.  

I'd like to see more of the high concaved kerbs where it's impossible to mount a vehicle, but as has been said, the attacks would simply move to a more softer target. 

If all these 3 terrorists once known end up again being British born, then its more substance and evidence for me to radicalise our laws. 

In that, had they been on a temporary passport because their parents had moved here from the Middle East, who'd also be on temp passports, then all family members associated to them are deported out to where they (the parents) originally came from as it's obvious they can't and don't accept our way of western life and laws so they fully forfeit the right stay here.
		
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Longer detainment without charge, more house arrests, curfews, tagging etc i'll agree with, but this temporary passport guff is just stupid.


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## Fish (Jun 4, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			Longer detainment without charge, more house arrests, curfews, tagging etc i'll agree with, but this temporary passport guff is just stupid.
		
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I don't think it's stupid, instead of making people who come here from other countries British Citizens they have a permanent Visa, there is already what's called a settlement order, this just becomes permanent as long as those individuals never commit a heinous crime.  If they indeed commit a crime of such magnitude then that Visa/Settlement order style passport is removed and they are deported to the county they came from as they have become undesirables.

I also don't get people who have dual citizenship, for me your one or the other.


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## guest100718 (Jun 4, 2017)

Fish said:



			I don't think it's stupid, instead of making people who come here from other countries British Citizens they have a permanent Visa, there is already what's called a settlement order, this just becomes permanent as long as those individuals never commit a heinous crime.  If they indeed commit a crime of such magnitude then that Visa/Settlement order style passport is removed and they are deported to the county they came from as they have become undesirables.

I also don't get people who have dual citizenship, for me your one or the other.
		
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Buts whats the point? The perpetrators will proably be british born and bred.

I'll probably take up dual nationality for reasons of convinience, I dont see it as an issue.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 4, 2017)

_The prime minister has said "it is time to say enough is enough" as she condemned a terror attack on "innocent and unarmed civilians" which left seven people dead and 48 injured in London.

A white van hit pedestrians on London Bridge at about 22:00 BST on Saturday, then three men got out and stabbed people in nearby Borough Market.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40148737

_
Is that it? "Enough is enough"? No mention of what you are going to do, or is it you just haven't got a clue?

Meaningless soundbite from a cretin of a PM.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2017)

What would you have liked to hear her say?


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## bluewolf (Jun 4, 2017)

Fish said:



			I don't think it's stupid, instead of making people who come here from other countries British Citizens they have a permanent Visa, there is already what's called a settlement order, this just becomes permanent as long as those individuals never commit a heinous crime.  If they indeed commit a crime of such magnitude then that Visa/Settlement order style passport is removed and they are deported to the county they came from as they have become undesirables.

I also don't get people who have dual citizenship, for me your one or the other.
		
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As a child of German and Irish immigrants (2 countries who've detonated more explosives on British soil than every other nation put together), I'd be interested to know just when my family becomes British?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2017)

Fish said:



			I don't think it's stupid, instead of making people who come here from other countries British Citizens they have a permanent Visa, there is already what's called a settlement order, this just becomes permanent as long as those individuals never commit a heinous crime.  If they indeed commit a crime of such magnitude then that Visa/Settlement order style passport is removed and they are deported to the county they came from as they have become undesirables.

I also don't get people who have dual citizenship, for me your one or the other.
		
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How long before someone born in this country from parents who have moved to the country from foreign lands are allowed to be given a passport ? 

With your idea my wife wouldn't be given a British passport because her parents are from Ireland. 


And again it's the same thing - the child born in this country can't be sent to where they come from because they come from Britian


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			As a child of German and Irish immigrants (2 countries who've detonated more explosives on British soil than every other nation put together), I'd be interested to know just when my family becomes British?
		
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They could be British as soon as they qualify for British residency but I believe the suggestion was the third generation before they would be immune from deportation for acts of terrorism.  As you are aware citizens of the Irish Republic have always been given special residency rights in he UK and can also vote in elections.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 4, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			As a child of German and Irish immigrants (2 countries who've detonated more explosives on British soil than every other nation put together), I'd be interested to know just when my family becomes British?
		
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I think you've earned your right to stay Danny due to services to our brewing industry  :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			As a child of German and Irish immigrants (2 countries who've detonated more explosives on British soil than every other nation put together), I'd be interested to know just when my family becomes British?
		
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I suspect your relatives bombed our chippy and you were obviously part of the conspiracy of silence.  So I say deport you straight away back to Germania where you came from, Herr Blauer Wolf.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 4, 2017)

Terrible shame for all the victims so sad, I think it would help if our government would stop selling arms to countries in the Middle East and put more pressure on Saudi Arabia to curb the militants


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Rlburnside said:



			Terrible shame for all the victims so sad, *I think it would help if our government would stop selling arms to countries in the Middle East and put more pressure on Saudi Arabia to curb the militants*

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What on earth has that to do with it, they never came from Saudi  
You do realise how many jobs we would lose if we did that and do you think Saudi would not buy weapons from France or Russia if we never sold them.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What on earth has that to do with it, they never came from Saudi  
You do realise how many jobs we would lose if we did that and do you think Saudi would not buy weapons from France or Russia if we never sold them.
		
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. 

If you look at the bigger picture I think it has a lot to do with it, the Saudis are one of the largest countries in the region bankrolling the extreme terroist factions which are creating havoc worldwide and imo it doesn't help our government selling arms to the Saudis and some other countries in this region. Would it not be better for our government to put more pressure on these governments to try and stop the militants?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What on earth has that to do with it, they never came from Saudi  
You do realise how many jobs we would lose if we did that and do you think Saudi would not buy weapons from France or Russia if we never sold them.
		
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Being the main Saudi strain of Islam - Wahhabism gives moral grounding to ISIS and extreme Islamism - and justification in the eyes of those who perpetrate these atrocities.  Somehow Wahhibism must be completely rejected by the global Muslim community and their religious leaders as an obscene corruption of Islam that is counter to the teachings of Allah


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2017)

_They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety._

Benjamin Franklin - US Founding Father


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Being the main Saudi strain of Islam - Wahhabism gives moral grounding to ISIS and extreme Islamism - and justification in the eyes of those who perpetrate these atrocities.  Somehow Wahhibism must be completely rejected by the global Muslim community and their religious leaders as an obscene corruption of Islam that is counter to the teachings of Allah
		
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You're not wrong. But how does that square with the majority of arabs across the Middle East and North Africa supporting the creation of a Caliphate?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

I think this country needs to clarify what type of society we want to be, the current one is not working and these recent attacks are a symptom of what has been going on with society and the way it has become fractured and lacking cohesion.  IMO what we need a clear division between regular society and religion, we should all be British Citizens with clear shared values that encourage people to live as a single community in our everyday lives. Diversity of religion cannot be denied but should not be the defining characteristic  for our citizenship.  We should not be a British Muslim, Jew, Christian, Sikh or Hindu, we should be secular regarding our nationality.   Multiculturalism has been a great failure where it encourages communities to look at themselves in a segmented way, no one should suggest they are a Muslim, Christian etc to define their community, that should be British first, English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish next and their religion something personal.  It would be a long hard job to do this but it should start with our political structure being Secular, the C of E should be divorced from the State, Bishops removed fro  the HOL and cultural diversity discouraged.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You're not wrong. But how does that square with the majority of arabs across the Middle East and North Africa supporting the creation of a Caliphate?
		
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It might not - but you have to start somewhere and where measures and actions are clearly available.  Yes - our defence industry (and a big lump my pension) depends hugely on Saudi spending.  The question is - is loss of it a price worth paying if sanctions and cancelling of sales to Saudi can be coordinated across nations?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I think this country needs to clarify what type of society we want to be, the current one is not working and these recent attacks are a symptom of what has been going on with society and the way it has become fractured and lacking cohesion.  IMO what we need a clear division between regular society and religion, we should all be British Citizens with clear shared values that encourage people to live as a single community in our everyday lives. Diversity of religion cannot be denied but should not be the defining characteristic  for our citizenship.  We should not be a British Muslim, Jew, Christian, Sikh or Hindu, we should be secular regarding our nationality.   Multiculturalism has been a great failure where it encourages communities to look at themselves in a segmented way, no one should suggest they are a Muslim, Christian etc to define their community, that should be British first, English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish next and their religion something personal.  It would be a long hard job to do this but it should start with our political structure being Secular, the C of E should be divorced from the State, Bishops removed fro  the HOL and cultural diversity discouraged.
		
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I actually agree with this.  We do need clarification.

In which case when Tim Farron says that he does not let any of his faith beliefs impact his secular approach to politics and policy - we should believe him and not press him on any of his specific religious beliefs - these being - along with family, completely personal matters and of no import to anyone else.

Fortunately we are not down, or that close to, the route of the USA at the moment - where Bragger rewarded Pence for his support by giving him the Vice-Presidency and forbidding US foreign aid going to groups that provide abortions; and indeed with the intent of stopping tax-payer funding of abortion in the US.

But you can't stop someone defining themselves in respect of their faith before their nationality - many of strong faith do so.  Now that may be incomprehensible to those of no faith, but I myself do understand why they might wish to see themselves that way.  

That aside - I most certainly see a very valid position for those of faith expressing views of social, cultural and economic matters from a faith perspective.  Whether the CoE should actually be involved in the political decision making process I am not so sure.


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I actually agree with this.  We do need clarification.

In which case when Tim Farron says that he does not let any of his faith beliefs impact his secular approach to politics and policy - we should believe him and not press him on any of his specific religious beliefs - these being - along with family, completely personal matters and of no import to anyone else.

Fortunately we are not down, or that close to, the route of the USA at the moment - where Bragger rewarded Pence for his support by giving him the Vice-Presidency and forbidding US foreign aid going to groups that provide abortions; and indeed with the intent of stopping tax-payer funding of abortion in the US.

But you can't stop someone defining themselves in respect of their faith before their nationality - many of strong faith do so.  Now that may be incomprehensible to those of no faith, but I myself do understand why they might wish to see themselves that way.  

That aside - I most certainly see a very valid position for those of faith expressing views of social, cultural and economic matters from a faith perspective.  Whether the CoE should actually be involved in the political decision making process I am not so sure.
		
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There's lot of truth in both yours and SR's posts. But on one point, someone of a strong religious belief would/should be more tolerant of other views, not less so as we are seeing across the world.

Relgion teaches compassion, not killing.

Should Farron bring his strong faith into decision making in a multi-religious and atheist/agnostic society? No. But only because it will offend others who disagree with his religion, not his politics.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			There's lot of truth in both yours and SR's posts. But on one point, someone of a strong religious belief would/should be more tolerant of other views, not less so as we are seeing across the world.

Relgion teaches compassion, not killing.

Should Farron bring his strong faith into decision making in a multi-religious and atheist/agnostic society? No. But only because it will offend others who disagree with his religion, not his politics.
		
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I agree totally.  The lack of tolerance of fundamentalist Islamists corrupting the message of Allah through their own twisted interpretation of the Quran - or indeed fundamentalist Christians twisting the message of God as laid out in the Bible - are equally alien to my own beliefs.  That they find expression in different way does not change the bottom line.

Farron has faith beliefs - some of which may be unacceptable to others - but as far as I am aware he keeps any that might be controversial away from his political stance and polices.  That some of his beliefs will place him on what many will see as a _snowflake leftie_ side of the argument is inevitable but not unacceptable.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2017)

Although I don't like Farron as a Politician it's nothing to do with his religion, I think he has been very good at keeping it out of his political life, I agree that it has been wrong for people to keep pushing him to explain his religious viewpoints.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 5, 2017)

I think it is time for us to move the goalposts. It is all well and good trying to hold the moral high ground and do everything 'by the book' but unfortunately that is costing lives.

My view is that you are 'British' if you buy into our way of life and accept our morals, standards, ethics and values. Just because someone was born here and holds a British passport does not in my mind become British if they wish to kill and maim other British citizens. Regardless of where these people were born they should be rounded up and sent to the country of their choice, if that also affects their families then so be it because they should have thought about the implications before going down the road of the religious extremist.

Once that is done there is a better chance of all faiths and colours living in a harmonious society which is to everyones benefit. I know some on here will strongly disagree with these views but with the frequency of these attacks increasing something radical needs to be done.

I also fear that we may start seeing vigilante attacks by way of reprisal and that is a very dangerous road to go down!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Although I don't like Farron as a Politician it's nothing to do with his religion, I think he has been very good at keeping it out of his political life, I agree that it has been wrong for people to keep pushing him to explain his religious viewpoints.
		
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Phew - we agree on something :whoo:

Though I think I like Farron more than you


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## User62651 (Jun 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I think it is time for us to move the goalposts. It is all well and good trying to hold the moral high ground and do everything 'by the book' but unfortunately that is costing lives.

My view is that you are 'British' if you buy into our way of life and *accept our morals, standards, ethics and values*. Just because someone was born here and holds a British passport does not in my mind become British if they wish to kill and maim other British citizens. Regardless of where these people were born *they should be rounded up and sent to the country of their choice*, if that also affects their families then so be it because they should have thought about the implications before going down the road of the religious extremist.

Once that is done there is a better chance of all faiths and colours living in a harmonious society which is to everyones benefit. I know some on here will strongly disagree with these views but with the frequency of these attacks increasing something radical needs to be done.

I also fear that we may start seeing vigilante attacks by way of reprisal and that is a very dangerous road to go down!
		
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Re the first bold parts can you define what these are and will they not just end up our old Christian values - how is that multiculturalism? They just have to obey the law like every citizen and govt needs to make sure the law is fit for purpose, the law is key in this, not untangible morals and standards. Much tougher laws required.

Re second bold part what countries would willingly or be seen to take suspected wannabee or actual terrorists from us? There will be no ISIL homeland left soon, they're about to lose Mosul and Raqqa and their oil fields that raise funding are depleting fast. Although Russia and America have conflicting interests/allies in the region they are both hitting ISIL hard at least.

The home grown jihadis are our problem that we have to sort out from within somehow.

Interesting maps on the current state of play in Iraq/Syria here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27838034


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## Smiffy (Jun 5, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Re second bold part what countries would willingly or be seen to take suspected wannabee or actual terrorists from us?
		
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None. So you build a massive great circular brick wall, no doors or windows, and you drop them all in there from a helicopter. From a height where they just might break their legs. And then you leave them in there with no food or water. It will go quiet after about two weeks or so. Job done.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



*Re the first bold parts can you define what these are* and will they not just end up our old Christian values - how is that multiculturalism? They just have to obey the law like every citizen and govt needs to make sure the law is fit for purpose, the law is key in this, not untangible morals and standards. Much tougher laws required.

Re second bold part what countries would willingly or be seen to take suspected wannabee or actual terrorists from us? There will be no ISIL homeland left soon, they're about to lose Mosul and Raqqa and their oil fields that raise funding are depleting fast. Although Russia and America have conflicting interests/allies in the region they are both hitting ISIL hard at least.

The home grown jihadis are our problem that we have to sort out from within somehow.

Interesting maps on the current state of play in Iraq/Syria here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27838034

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With regards to British values then this is taught in schools nowadays and they are defined as democracy, rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.  You know, the kind of thing we see on here every day.


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## Kellfire (Jun 5, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			None. So you build a massive great circular brick wall, no doors or windows, and you drop them all in there from a helicopter. From a height where they just might break their legs. And then you leave them in there with no food or water. It will go quiet after about two weeks or so. Job done.
		
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Aren't you a lovely member of society?!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Loving the London Mayor and Commissioner of Met Police making statements standing side-by-side.  The former a fully integrated Muslim; the latter a gay woman.

Khan and Dick - two individuals who embody all that the Islamofascists hate, standing up against them - and who exemplify all that we cherish in our society - as @HK says - democracy, rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			None. So you build a massive great circular brick wall, no doors or windows, and you drop them all in there from a helicopter. From a height where they just might break their legs. And then you leave them in there with no food or water. It will go quiet after about two weeks or so. Job done.
		
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See book (by James Dashner) and film - _The Maze Runner_.


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## Smiffy (Jun 5, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Aren't you a lovely member of society?!
		
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I like to think I am.
But they're not so get rid of 'em.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Can a potential suicide bomber be sanctioned under the Mental Health Act as they pose a risk to themselves?  Indeed can *anyone *be held indefinitely under the Mental Health Act if it is deemed that they are a threat to themselves or others. 

You could argue that *anyone *who holds Islamofascist views with intent to harm self or others is mentally unstable, and hence could and should be legally locked up for their own and others protection.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2017)

Rlburnside said:



			. 

If you look at the bigger picture I think it has a lot to do with it, the Saudis are one of the largest countries in the region bankrolling the extreme terroist factions which are creating havoc worldwide and imo it doesn't help our government selling arms to the Saudis and some other countries in this region. Would it not be better for our government to put more pressure on these governments to try and stop the militants?
		
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Ironically ribby me man, the Saudis and five other Mid East countries have today stopped all diplomatic relations with Qatar. Yup the same place where the World Cup is going. They accuse the qataris of bank rolling terrorism, both at government level and rich Qatari individuals. And destabilising the Mid East.
having read all the posts. I am English and respect all faiths, sexes etc etc etc. But and this is a massive but, respect and tolerance is a two way street. Some don't see it that way. Re recent events. These extremist scum do not recognise a country's boundarys. There faith (or lack of ) overrides any loyalty to a country, religion, sex, race etc etc.


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## Fish (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can a potential suicide bomber be sanctioned under the Mental Health Act as they pose a risk to themselves?  Indeed can *anyone *be held indefinitely under the Mental Health Act if it is deemed that they are a threat to themselves or others. 

You could argue that *anyone *who holds Islamofascist views with intent to harm self or others is mentally unstable, and hence could and should be legally locked up for their own and others protection.
		
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Not sure why you need to overcomplicate it, the sentence for terrorist activity simply needs to be at "HMP" (her majesties pleasure) with no grounds for release.

Why release anyone who has been involved in terrorism, they are only going to jump through the hoops whilst inside and be of good behaviour so they can be released as soon as possible, and then guess what.........booom!

Life needs to be life for terrorism acts, build a specific large remote jail which is as basic as it can be with 90% bang up with the minimum amount of exercise.  

No TV's or pool tables etc, proper slop-out bang-up victorian style jail, but leave them their belts on, you never know, they might take the easy option out and save us some money and help keep the jail population down.


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can a potential suicide bomber be sanctioned under the Mental Health Act as they pose a risk to themselves?  Indeed can *anyone *be held indefinitely under the Mental Health Act if it is deemed that they are a threat to themselves or others. 

You could argue that *anyone *who holds Islamofascist views with intent to harm self or others is mentally unstable, and hence could and should be legally locked up for their own and others protection.
		
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Something I've considered too. If you're mad enough to kill yourself, you're definitely in need of 'care' at her Majesty's pleasure. And of course, tongue firmly in cheek, your whole family may need their genes checking...


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2017)

Fish said:



			Not sure why you need to overcomplicate it, the sentence for terrorist activity simply needs to be at "HMP" (her majesties pleasure) with no grounds for release.

Why release anyone who has been involved in terrorism, they are only going to jump through the hoops whilst inside and be of good behaviour so they can be released as soon as possible, and then guess what.........booom!

Life needs to be life for terrorism acts, build a specific large remote jail which is as basic as it can be with 90% bang up with the minimum amount of exercise.  

No TV's or pool tables etc, proper slop-out bang-up victorian style jail, but leave them their belts on, you never know, they might take the easy option out and save us some money and help keep the jail population down.
		
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Actually fish, putting the terrorists inside with the general population is creating massive problems in our nicks. They are preying on the weak and vulnerable cons and converting them into future problems.

The answer may well be in building a seperate jail for them.


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## Fish (Jun 5, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Actually fish, putting the terrorists inside with the general population is creating massive problems in our nicks. They are preying on the weak and vulnerable cons and converting them into future problems.

The answer may well be in building a seperate jail for them.
		
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I'm not sure how and why they'd be within the general population, and more importantly, they shouldn't have access to vulnerable prisoners.

All convicted prisoners are categorised, so the more vulnerable who are inside on lesser convicted crimes are D-cat and in opens, then C-cat & B-cat accordingly, I would like to think that all terrorist convictions in any shape would be A-cat or even a special category and that would mean they were only in with the hardened criminals on very long sentences and if so, I don't think many of them would come out their cells.  I'd have thought they got sectioned like the nonces?

Either way, build it, and I don't think it would stay full, they'd rather die but this way they wouldn't take anyone with them...ever....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Fish said:



			Not sure why you need to overcomplicate it, the sentence for terrorist activity simply needs to be at "HMP" (her majesties pleasure) with no grounds for release.

Why release anyone who has been involved in terrorism, they are only going to jump through the hoops whilst inside and be of good behaviour so they can be released as soon as possible, and then guess what.........booom!

Life needs to be life for terrorism acts, build a specific large remote jail which is as basic as it can be with 90% bang up with the minimum amount of exercise.  

No TV's or pool tables etc, proper slop-out bang-up victorian style jail, but leave them their belts on, you never know, they might take the easy option out and save us some money and help keep the jail population down.
		
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Surely the point is that it is under existing legislation - and for reasons just shifted once away from anti-terror - with the implications to the Muslim community.  Move it to an individual's mental health and it might feel a bit different...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2017)

Fish said:



			Not sure why you need to overcomplicate it, the sentence for terrorist activity simply needs to be at "HMP" (her majesties pleasure) with no grounds for release.

Why release anyone who has been involved in terrorism, they are only going to jump through the hoops whilst inside and be of good behaviour so they can be released as soon as possible, and then guess what.........booom!

Life needs to be life for terrorism acts, build a specific large remote jail which is as basic as it can be with 90% bang up with the minimum amount of exercise.  

No TV's or pool tables etc, proper slop-out bang-up victorian style jail, but leave them their belts on, you never know, they might take the easy option out and save us some money and help keep the jail population down.
		
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I still am failing to see how longer jail sentences will put off suicide bombers?  It seems to me that in every incident they either blow themselves up or know they will get killed.  So why would the prospect of a long time in jail stop them following that path when the certainty of death does not?


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2017)

Fish said:



			I'm not sure how and why they'd be within the general population, and more importantly, they shouldn't have access to vulnerable prisoners.

All convicted prisoners are categorised, so the more vulnerable who are inside on lesser convicted crimes are D-cat and in opens, then C-cat & B-cat accordingly, I would like to think that all terrorist convictions in any shape would be A-cat or even a special category and that would mean they were only in with the hardened criminals on very long sentences and if so, I don't think many of them would come out their cells.  I'd have thought they got sectioned like the nonces?

Either way, build it, and I don't think it would stay full, they'd rather die but this way they wouldn't take anyone with them...ever....
		
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Was talking to a guy who is a gaffer at a local prison, some of the folk sent down are people who were prevented from certain incidents. We're not talking one or two, these are the people that groom.


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## Fish (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely the point is that it is under existing legislation - and for reasons just shifted once away from anti-terror - with the implications to the Muslim community.  Move it to an individual's mental health and it might feel a bit different...
		
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HMP is an existing legislative sentence.



Hacker Khan said:



			I still am failing to see how longer jail sentences will put off suicide bombers?  It seems to me that in every incident they either blow themselves up or know they will get killed.  So why would the prospect of a long time in jail stop them following that path when the certainty of death does not?
		
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If it stopped just 1 young man suddenly not going through with it, would it be worth it?

We've heard of a few situations when the rucksacks have been dumped, usually by those younger converts with last minute reservations, maybe it wouldn't even go that far with the fear of being caught after not going through it but then never seeing the light of day!

Again if it creates doubt with those being more easily led towards these atrocities, they might just think twice, run and hide.

We need a fear factor, death isn't it as they're too comfortable with that, but being locked up forever with the most basic provisions, well I don't think they want to face that kind of isolation! 

You obviously won't put off the mad fanatic so we need create something else also to reach into these closed shop communities and create a fear factor so they feel that they must report anything they know or are suspicious of or it could affect them in some way, especially if preachers are involved in some way that are not British born, just ship them out ASAP.


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## Fish (Jun 5, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Was talking to a guy who is a gaffer at a local prison, some of the folk sent down are people who were prevented from certain incidents. We're not talking one or two, these are the people that groom.
		
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Again though, in any convicted crime related to terrorism in any aspect, it needs to be a Cat-A or stronger, they can't be in the general population with all their special diets and special needs being woke up to pray etc and sticking all together in their cliques.  

I special remote victorian style jail for terrorists as basic as it comes all lumped together but in isolation, no frills, minimum exercise and 90% bang-up, removes all the grooming and them playing the system with all their special needs.

Terrorism is an act of treason, anyone convicted of a terrorist act loses all their rights to be treated with any extra civility other than the most basic of needs.


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## Kellfire (Jun 5, 2017)

Fish said:



			Again though, in any convicted crime related to terrorism in any aspect, it needs to be a Cat-A or stronger, they can't be in the general population with all their special diets and special needs being woke up to pray etc and sticking all together in their cliques.  

I special remote victorian style jail for terrorists as basic as it comes all lumped together but in isolation, no frills, minimum exercise and 90% bang-up, removes all the grooming and them playing the system with all their special needs.

Terrorism is an act of treason, anyone convicted of a terrorist act loses all their rights to be treated with any extra civility other than the most basic of needs.
		
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So you're in favour of us breaching many different aspects of their legally protected human rights?

To tackle savage behaviour, we should become less civilised?

Nah, not for me thanks. Thankfully their are laws that prevent us from regressing in this way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			So you're in favour of us breaching many different aspects of their legally protected human rights?

To tackle savage behaviour, we should become less civilised?

Nah, not for me thanks. Thankfully their are laws that prevent us from regressing in this way.
		
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Fret ye not. The May Manifesto has UK remaining in the ECHR - notwithstanding that she was planning to make the case for UK leaving it for the 2020 GE.  

_'The ECHR protects freedoms such as the prohibition of torture, slavery, the right to a fair trial and freedom of expression'_

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ave-eu-next-parliament-election-a7742436.html

And as an aside this rather scuppers Paul Nuttall's wish for UK to start water-boarding terror suspects,

Unfortunately...this manifesto pledge only seems to apply

_...while the process of Brexit is under way," although it said consideration will be given to the UK's "human rights legal framework" when Brexit concludes_


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## Smiffy (Jun 5, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			So you're in favour of us breaching many different aspects of their legally protected human rights?
		
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So that bloke that blew himself up, taking all those young kids with him had legally protected human rights?
Wow!!
Who'd have thought it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			So you're in favour of us breaching many different aspects of their legally protected human rights?

To tackle savage behaviour, we should become less civilised?

Nah, not for me thanks. Thankfully their are laws that prevent us from regressing in this way.
		
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These people have opted out of Human Rights, they deserve to live the type of life just described.  We have been civilized by providing them with a good lifestyle in our country, it is them that have decided to carry out these uncivilized acts of murder on innocents.  We are not talking about torture here, we are talking about hard labour.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2017)

Fish said:



			HMP is an existing legislative sentence.



If it stopped just 1 young man suddenly not going through with it, would it be worth it?

We've heard of a few situations when the rucksacks have been dumped, usually by those younger converts with last minute reservations, maybe it wouldn't even go that far with the fear of being caught after not going through it but then never seeing the light of day!

Again if it creates doubt with those being more easily led towards these atrocities, they might just think twice, run and hide.

*We need a fear factor, death isn't it as they're too comfortable with that, but being locked up forever with the most basic provisions, well I don't think they want to face that kind of isolation! *

You obviously won't put off the mad fanatic so we need create something else also to reach into these closed shop communities and create a fear factor so they feel that they must report anything they know or are suspicious of or it could affect them in some way, especially if preachers are involved in some way that are not British born, just ship them out ASAP.
		
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A fate worse than a fate worse than death, pretty bad.............


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## Fish (Jun 5, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			So you're in favour of us breaching many different aspects of their legally protected human rights?
		
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Yes..



Kellfire said:



			To tackle savage behaviour, we should become less civilised?
		
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They receive the most basic of rights, in that, the smallest amount of time to exercise, single cells, no mixing with other inmates, 1 visit a month but only on good behaviour, no luxuries as can be found in all prisons currently, all letters in and out fully vetted, its needs to be uncomfortable for them , not a bloody holiday camp with special privileges! 



Kellfire said:



			Nah, not for me thanks. Thankfully their are laws that prevent us from regressing in this way.
		
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We need to change them as there's no current deterrent and we are perceived to be a soft touch, your opinion being typical of them.


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## Fish (Jun 5, 2017)

Some information filtering through but the police have asked the media to hold back on announcing the names and full details of the 3 terrorists, but it's just been said that 1 was a Pakistani male and one of the others was a Moroccan, one being married to a white British woman who is currently under arrest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			So that bloke that blew himself up, taking all those young kids with him had legally protected human rights?
Wow!!
Who'd have thought it.
		
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I didn't say that...


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## Smiffy (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn't say that...
		
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No, but you inferred it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			No, but you inferred it.
		
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Benjamin Franklin - US Founding Father - said

_They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety_

Challenging


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_'The ECHR protects freedoms such as the prohibition of torture, slavery, the right to a fair trial and freedom of expression* and the right to go about your law abiding daily life in safety*'_

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I've jusy tweaked the Human Rights Act slightly, hope that is OK with everyone?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I've jusy tweaked the Human Rights Act slightly, hope that is OK with everyone?
		
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Not really...it says what it says...


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## Slime (Jun 5, 2017)

Fish said:



			Not sure why you need to overcomplicate it, the sentence for terrorist activity simply needs to be at "HMP" (her majesties pleasure) with no grounds for release.

Why release anyone who has been involved in terrorism, they are only going to jump through the hoops whilst inside and be of good behaviour so they can be released as soon as possible, and then guess what.........booom!

Life needs to be life for terrorism acts, build a specific large remote jail which is as basic as it can be with 90% bang up with the minimum amount of exercise.  

No TV's or pool tables etc, proper slop-out bang-up victorian style jail, but leave them their belts on, you never know, they might take the easy option out and save us some money and help keep the jail population down.
		
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Struggling to find anything wrong with that ............... although I'm also in favour of the death penalty.



Kellfire said:



			So you're in favour of *us breaching many different aspects of their legally protected human rights?*

To tackle savage behaviour, we should become less civilised?

Nah, not for me thanks. Thankfully their are laws that prevent us from regressing in this way.
		
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They gave up their human rights when they stopped behaving like humans!


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Benjamin Franklin - US Founding Father - said

_They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety_

Challenging
		
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I could be wrong with this SILH in that in Mr BJs day America was full of savages. The same could be said of Manchester, London, Paris and Europe. 

The same quote could and should apply today to the same savages.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Benjamin Franklin - US Founding Father - said

_They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety_

Challenging
		
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I think you misunderstand the meaning of his quotation. He actually wrote:
"those who would give up essential liberty to *purchase* a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

He was referring to the dispute between the Penn family and the Pennsylvania General Assembly regarding a charge to protect the boarder during the French and Indian War.  The Penn family who governed the colony refused to pay a tax by getting the Governor to  veto it.  So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.   Quite the opposite to what people tend to believe it was.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 5, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Ironically ribby me man, the Saudis and five other Mid East countries have today stopped all diplomatic relations with Qatar. Yup the same place where the World Cup is going. They accuse the qataris of bank rolling terrorism, both at government level and rich Qatari individuals. And destabilising the Mid East.
having read all the posts. I am English and respect all faiths, sexes etc etc etc. But and this is a massive but, respect and tolerance is a two way street. Some don't see it that way. Re recent events. These extremist scum do not recognise a country's boundarys. There faith (or lack of ) overrides any loyalty to a country, religion, sex, race etc etc.
		
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Yes it is ironic that the Saudis have stopped diplomatic relations with Quatar when they cant/ won't stop the hard line money men in their own country from funding terrorists


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 5, 2017)

According to breaking BBC news those arrested in connection have been released


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			According to breaking BBC news those arrested in connection have been released
		
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Not quite, the 12 arrested sunday have been released, others are still in custody.


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## Fish (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Not quite, the 12 arrested sunday have been released, others are still in custody.
		
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There will always be multiple arrests following these atrocities as the police and other agencies descend on all family members and immediate associates to interview them, those that knew or took any part in assisting the murderers will be charged, those that can prove they knew nothing, released, but now watched. 

All the immediate arrests give the public a sense of trust and relief (probably not the right word or  expression but I know what I mean) but unfortunately that's just a big net thrown out and many caught up in it will be inevitably released. 

Some of these young terrorists have sons, daughters and brothers, although they may have not took part in the particular murderous act that saw there father shot down or blown up, how many of those then become the enemy from within and turn their anger towards us to follow in their fathers footsteps?


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## Kellfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Fish said:



			Some of these young terrorists have sons, daughters and brothers, although they may have not took part in the particular murderous act that saw there father shot down or blown up, how many of those then become the enemy from within and turn their anger towards us to follow in their fathers footsteps?
		
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Best deport them to be sure.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

Fish said:



			There will always be multiple arrests following these atrocities as the police and other agencies descend on all family members and immediate associates to interview them, those that knew or took any part in assisting the murderers will be charged, those that can prove they knew nothing, released, but now watched. 

All the immediate arrests give the public a sense of trust and relief (probably not the right word or  expression but I know what I mean) but unfortunately that's just a big net thrown out and many caught up in it will be inevitably released. 

Some of these young terrorists have sons, daughters and brothers, although they may have not took part in the particular murderous act that saw there father shot down or blown up, how many of those then become the enemy from within and turn their anger towards us to follow in their fathers footsteps?
		
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Yes I know mate, Homer comment was ambigious, so just clarified it.


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## Junior (Jun 6, 2017)

It was on the radio this morning that one of those involved was on the C4 documentary 'Jihadi's Next Door' last year.  He was seen preaching in London and carrying isis flags, but, whilst known to the Police he was not suspected of any terrorist activity ????


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## Fish (Jun 6, 2017)

Junior said:



			It was on the radio this morning that one of those involved was on the C4 documentary 'Jihadi's Next Door' last year.  He was seen preaching in London and carrying isis flags, but, whilst known to the Police he was not suspected of any terrorist activity ????
		
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I've seen the clip, and its this which needs addressing in our laws. 

How on earth has someone like him received British citizenship?  It's almost a tic box guarantee system, it's pathetic!  

As soon as he or anyone who's been afforded citizenship (or not) and spouts violence and hatred against the country that has taken him in, then that citizenship needs removing and he needs shipping out back to Pakistan and not allowed back into the country. 

Any and all citizenship from people choosing to live here needs to have a proviso that any threats or violent actions against the country or serous crimes committed in the country, then its withdrawn and they are removed.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

Fish said:



			How on earth has someone like him received British citizenship?  It's almost a tic box guarantee system, it's pathetic!
		
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How do you expect those granting citizenship to have spotted his ability to become a radical when he came here as a child? 

Re your point about "removing citizenship", then it's a case of innocent until proven guilty. You can call me a lefty all you like, but it's a complete necessity for a respectable country. The second you take that away for a specific crime (or even worse, for thinking you may commit a crime), the sooner it all falls apart.  

What happens if your neighbour becomes convinced you're going to murder a number of people? Should we lock you up without a trial? Do you see the alley we would be going down...


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## Fish (Jun 6, 2017)

The third London Bridge attacker has been named as Youssef Zaghba, a Moroccan-Italian man.


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## DRW (Jun 6, 2017)

Whilst I have no feelings for people who kill other people, when I hear about people saying people should just be held for the sake of it, these cases always pops into my memory(therefore I do not agree with the simple hold them and use terror act laws just because) :-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...d-their-abuse-of-anti-terror-legislation.html

All of the attacks are terrible.


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## patricks148 (Jun 6, 2017)

I'd be interested to know how many of these radicals that want to overthrow our way of life are claiming benefits?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

As far as I can see - with atrocities such as Saturday night's the only way you'll stop any one individual perpetrating one is to have that individual under lock and key - because they only take minutes to carry out and can be carried out anywhere with almost no preparation.  Lock up one unstable Islamofascist and another will do the deed.  Answer to me just doesn't seem to be locking up everyone who just might perpetrate an atrocity...as attractive as that might seem.  Rather somehow we need to cut off the oxygen that individuals need to grow disillusionment into hated and willingness to lose their life.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 6, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Whilst I have no feelings for people who kill other people, when I hear about people saying people should just be held for the sake of it, these cases always pops into my memory(therefore I do not agree with the simple hold them and use terror act laws just because) :-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...d-their-abuse-of-anti-terror-legislation.html

All of the attacks are terrible.
		
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To be fair, I really don't think an article written in 2005 is relevant today. Surveillance tools and techniques have moved on massively since then and the authorities don't incorrectly identify people very often these days. In the vast majority of cases the people they detain or question are implicated in terrorist activities in some way or other. I would rather someone was incorrectly held for 24 hours than left free to roam the streets and cause carnage. We can always send them a box of chocolates as an apology


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## User62651 (Jun 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			To be fair, I really don't think an article written in 2005 is relevant today. Surveillance tools and techniques have moved on massively since then and the authorities don't incorrectly identify people very often these days. In the vast majority of cases the people they detain or question are implicated in terrorist activities in some way or other. I would rather someone was incorrectly held for 24 hours than left free to roam the streets and cause carnage. We can always send them a box of chocolates as an apology  

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Have to be wary of a repeat of the Jean Charles de Menenez debacle too, targets have to be confirmed absolutely.


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## Slime (Jun 6, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Have to be wary of a repeat of the Jean Charles de Menenez debacle too, targets have to be confirmed absolutely.
		
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Whilst I totally agree with this, I think we have to accept that there may be some degree of collateral damage when dealing with these sort of people.
I think it's unavoidable.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			To be fair, I really don't think an article written in 2005 is relevant today. Surveillance tools and techniques have moved on massively since then and the authorities don't incorrectly identify people very often these days. In the vast majority of cases the people they detain or question are implicated in terrorist activities in some way or other. I would rather someone was incorrectly held for 24 hours than left free to roam the streets and cause carnage. We can always send them a box of chocolates as an apology  

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You mean like all of the people arrested Sunday that have since been released?
And all of the people sent in front of the courts and found not guilty,when you say the authorities don't often get the wrong person? Innocent until guilty.



Slime said:



			Whilst I totally agree with this, I think we have to accept that there may be some degree of collateral damage when dealing with these sort of people.
I think it's unavoidable.
		
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It's pretty easy to condone collateral damage when it's not you in the firing line isn't it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You mean like all of the people arrested Sunday that have since been released?
And all of the people sent in front of the courts and found not guilty,when you say the authorities don't often get the wrong person? Innocent until guilty.


It's pretty easy to condone collateral damage when it's not you in the firing line isn't it.
		
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..and when you are not of Middle Eastern or Afro-Caribbean heritage or appearance...sad but true


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You mean like all of the people arrested Sunday that have since been released?
And all of the people sent in front of the courts and found not guilty,when you say the authorities don't often get the wrong person? Innocent until guilty.


It's pretty easy to condone collateral damage when it's not you in the firing line isn't it.
		
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Yes exactly like those people. Unfortunately they have been inconvenienced but now eliminated from ongoing investigations so we can all breathe a little bit easier. Do you have an issue with that or would you prefer that potential terrorists weren't checked out?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and when you are not of Middle Eastern or Afro-Caribbean heritage or appearance...sad but true
		
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They all are though. Not sure of Afro-Caribbean though, by that I guess you mean Black?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			How do you expect those granting citizenship to have spotted his ability to become a radical when he came here as a child? 

Re your point about "removing citizenship", then it's a case of innocent until proven guilty. You can call me a lefty all you like, but it's a complete necessity for a respectable country. The second you take that away for a specific crime (or even worse, for thinking you may commit a crime), the sooner it all falls apart.  

What happens if your neighbour becomes convinced you're going to murder a number of people? Should we lock you up without a trial? Do you see the alley we would be going down...
		
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If my neighbor had reasonable grounds to believe I was about to murder someone the police should take me into custody and investigate it.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			If my neighbor had reasonable grounds to believe I was about to murder someone the police should take me into custody and investigate it.
		
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As long as you don't mind being shipped somewhere else while that happens, as seems to be the suggestion here! I'm very happy with the current system and the ability the police have to arrest under suspicion. It's everyone else who seems to think we're too lenient and should jump to conclusions with minimal evidence (or even worse, if someone in your family has done something)


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Yes exactly like those people. Unfortunately they have been inconvenienced but now eliminated from ongoing investigations so we can all breathe a little bit easier. Do you have an issue with that or would you prefer that potential terrorists weren't checked out?
		
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I'm fine with the current system. What is it you would like to see changed?


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## Slime (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You mean like all of the people arrested Sunday that have since been released?
And all of the people sent in front of the courts and found not guilty,when you say the authorities don't often get the wrong person? Innocent until guilty.

*It's pretty easy to condone collateral damage when it's not you in the firing line isn't it.*

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I think you'll find that there are far fewer in that firing line than in the firing line of terrorists.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

Slime said:



			I think you'll find that there are far fewer in that firing line than in the firing line of terrorists.
		
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On what grounds? So far we've talked about including 3,000 on the watch list, plus their families. I'm sure there are more extreme views out there about who should be included.
Victims of terrorism in the UK in the last 10 years are about 100-150.


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You mean like all of the people arrested Sunday that have since been released?
And all of the people sent in front of the courts and found not guilty,when you say the authorities don't often get the wrong person? Innocent until guilty.


It's pretty easy to condone collateral damage when it's not you in the firing line isn't it.
		
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And no better a recruitment agent for the likes of ISIS


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			As long as you don't mind being shipped somewhere else while that happens, as seems to be the suggestion here! I'm very happy with the current system and the ability the police have to arrest under suspicion. It's everyone else who seems to think we're too lenient and should jump to conclusions with minimal evidence (or even worse, if someone in your family has done something)
		
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I'm a bit confused at what your concern is.  If it's the Police arresting close associates of terrorists after they have killed people then I fail to understand it.  It is quite reasonable to assume that family and people in close association with the killers *may* be part of their support network and arresting them to either confirm collusion or rule it out is understandable.  It may cause some short term disruption to the innocent but hopefully will lead to early apprehension of the guilty.   We are living in some very dangerous times and must expect some intrusion to our normal way of life sometimes in the pursuance of apprehending those that would kill us.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

doublebogey7 said:



			And no better a recruitment agent for the likes of ISIS
		
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And making their evil plans easier to achieve if we run scared in the name of their Human Rights.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm a bit confused at what your concern is.  If it's the Police arresting close associates of terrorists after they have killed people then I fail to understand it.  It is quite reasonable to assume that family and people in close association with the killers *may* be part of their support network and arresting them to either confirm collusion or rule it out is understandable.  It may cause some short term disruption to the innocent but hopefully will lead to early apprehension of the guilty.   We are living in some very dangerous times and must expect some intrusion to our normal way of life sometimes in the pursuance of apprehending those that would kill us.
		
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I don't have an issue with those initial arrests. That's legal at the moment, and works quite well under current powers. The issue I have is the follow on being made by a number of people, that they should be deported as well, without much of a trial or "how's your father"


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## Imurg (Jun 6, 2017)

Why are they naming the bombers/murderers/terrorists...?
It's helping to make Martyrs of them..
Deny them the publicity...just say " we have identified them, we know who they are and we're looking closely at all their friends, families and associates"
That's all we need to know isn't it?


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## Slime (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			On what grounds? So far we've talked about including 3,000 on the watch list, plus their families. I'm sure there are more extreme views out there about who should be included.
Victims of terrorism in the UK in the last 10 years are about 100-150.
		
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What I'm trying to say is that anyone is far less likely to be accidentally killed by UK security forces than they are by a lunatic terrorist.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2017)

Slime said:



			What I'm trying to say is that anyone is far less likely to be accidentally killed by UK security forces than they are by a lunatic terrorist.
		
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One innocent person being killed due to collateral damage is one person too many.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

Slime said:



			What I'm trying to say is that anyone is far less likely to be accidentally killed by UK security forces than they are by a lunatic terrorist.
		
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Currently yes. If we bring in these "radical" rules people seem to believe in, then who knows.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

Slime said:



			What I'm trying to say is that anyone is far less likely to be accidentally killed by UK security forces than they are by a lunatic terrorist.
		
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Using that logic maybe we shouldn't worry about terrorism


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One innocent person being killed due to collateral damage is one person too many.
		
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Should we not shoot terrorists in case someone gets hurt accidentally?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Should we not shoot terrorists in case someone gets hurt accidentally?
		
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Big difference between mistaken identity and stray bullet.


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			And making their evil plans easier to achieve if we run scared in the name of their Human Rights.
		
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No one is talking about running scared.  In fact I would argue that those that are arguing for a change to our generally liberal society are the ones running scared.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 22843


Using that logic maybe we shouldn't worry about terrorism 

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Or give a life sentence to people who park on double yellow lines.  They can block access to emergency vehicles and put others life at risk.  If one or two were given life in prison then would anyone park on double yellows again?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

doublebogey7 said:



			No one is talking about running scared.  In fact I would argue that those that are arguing for a change to our generally liberal society are the ones running scared.
		
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They are not running scared, they are facing up to the reality of the dangers we encounter.  People who want to hide behind human rights and racism to protect their evil intentions are the problem and the leftist elite are allowing them to do it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Big difference between mistaken identity and stray bullet.
		
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Really!   If you believed someone was about to kill people and it was your on the spot decision to shoot or not, what would you do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Really!   If you believed someone was about to kill people and it was your on the spot decision to shoot or not, what would you do.
		
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Shoot! The thread mentioned the innocent Brazilian shot on the Tube, different to shooting one of those holding a knife and a bullet passing through them and hitting an innocent person.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			They are not running scared, they are facing up to the reality of the dangers we encounter.  People who want to hide behind human rights and racism to protect their evil intentions are the problem and the leftist elite are allowing them to do it.
		
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So why after 7 years haven't the government done something before now, because they're getting desperate for votes and people are seeing the results of them cutting the security services, more deflection!


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2017)

So, what is the answer?


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			They are not running scared, they are facing up to the reality of the dangers we encounter.  People who want to hide behind human rights and racism to protect their evil intentions are the problem and the leftist elite are allowing them to do it.
		
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My point is illustrated by the stats provided by Pauldj42.  We do not make major changes to our rights because people die on the roads,  so why do we wish to do that because terrorists cause a much smaller death rate.  Anyone shown to have broken the law need to feel the full force but internment, forced repatriation of British citizens etc will only lead to more radicalisation and a further breakdown of our society.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So, what is the answer?
		
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For me it's a proper cross party review of exactly what the security services are facing and what they need to carry out their job properly, the safety of our citizens should stop being a political football.
If it's changes to laws or more police on the beat, resources etc, then it should be done and be as drastic as the review finds, may upset some, but unlucky.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So, what is the answer?
		
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Because humans are what they are there is imo no definitive answer to stopping terrorists and terrorism - it's been around for as long as human beings have walked the earth. 

All the radical ideas being mentioned won't change anything , they won't stop it happening - a lot of it based on blood thirsty revenge with it now seems a sprinkle of innocents deaths thrown in

We need to put our trust into the hands of the security forces to continue to build intelligence to attempt to stop the incidents before they happen , those same security forces need our governments full support in terms of financial backing and boots on the ground. Tightening of laws in Regards confirmed religious zealots and fundamentalists none of the deporting of families etc


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			They are not running scared, they are facing up to the reality of the dangers we encounter.  People who want to hide behind human rights and racism to protect their evil intentions are the problem and the leftist elite are allowing them to do it.
		
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People who kill people are the problem.
People who sell arms to people are the problem.
People who incite hatred are the problem.
People who support human rights are not the problem.
People who don't support racism are not the problem.

I know it's nice and easy to say "let's kick everyone out, and that'll deal with it", but unfortunately it's a bit late for that. We need to radically re-think why this is happening, and how it can be resolved. Do you think we'd have peace in NI right now if we'd just kicked out everyone with an irish accent in the last few decades?
People


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			For me it's a proper cross party review of exactly what the security services are facing and what they need to carry out their job properly, the safety of our citizens should stop being a political football.
If it's changes to laws or* more police on the beat, resources etc*, then it should be done and be as drastic as the review finds, may upset some, but unlucky.
		
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Well that's not going to happen


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Well that's not going to happen
		
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Why? All parties are promising more police.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			People who kill people are the problem.
People who sell arms to people are the problem.
People who incite hatred are the problem.
People who support human rights are not the problem.
People who don't support racism are not the problem.

I know it's nice and easy to say "let's kick everyone out, and that'll deal with it", but unfortunately it's a bit late for that. We need to radically re-think why this is happening, and how it can be resolved. Do you think we'd have peace in NI right now if we'd just kicked out everyone with an irish accent in the last few decades?
People
		
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People who kill people are the problem. (People that kill evil terrorists are not the problem)
People who sell arms to people are the problem. (What! Transit vans and kitchen knifes)
People who incite hatred are the problem.  (Especially those that hate us for our western freedoms while benefiting from them)
People who support human rights are not the problem. (People who use human rights to protect evil are the problem)
People who don't support racism are not the problem. (People who cannot face up to the evil being perpetrated like the grooming and rape of children, the atrocity of FGM, the inability to identify the terrorist in communities, the acceptance of people coming to the UK who have no intention of adopting British values and culture, all because we are frightened of being branded Racist is the problem)


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## Fish (Jun 7, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Well that's not going to happen
		
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There were more police in 2005 and it didn't prevent 7/7 did it?  You're not going to stop a suicide bomber or nutters with vehicles & knives with more beat bobbies. 

1 of those terrorists was already spouting his crap publicly and spreading hatred, he should have been dealt with, everything currently is designed to be dealt with after an atrocity, we need to remove the problems before people lose their lives.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2017)

Fish said:



			There were more police in 2005 and it didn't prevent 7/7 did it?  You're not going to stop a suicide bomber or nutters with vehicles & knives with more beat bobbies. 

1 of those terrorists was already spouting his crap publicly and spreading hatred, he should have been dealt with, everything currently is designed to be dealt with after an atrocity, we need to remove the problems before people lose their lives.
		
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Careful Robin. There's too much sense in that...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

Fish said:



			There were more police in 2005 and it didn't prevent 7/7 did it?  You're not going to stop a suicide bomber or nutters with vehicles & knives with more beat bobbies. 

1 of those terrorists was already spouting his crap publicly and spreading hatred, he should have been dealt with, everything currently is designed to be dealt with after an atrocity, we need to remove the problems before people lose their lives.
		
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Having more cutbacks certainly won't help and if they are being missed now how can we guarantee we won't miss even more, 1 of the 3 was not on any list or being watched.


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## sawtooth (Jun 7, 2017)

We are not talking miliions of people here probably only a few thousand extremists in this country.

Systematically weed them out with better and stronger intelligence and by working with the muslim society who don't want them anymore than we do.

Then lock ISIS sympathisers up for good and anyone found travelling abroad for bomb making training and the like should never be allowed to return .

Strategically we need to stop interfering with matters abroad especially in countries with high muslim populations. The main driver for their hatred of westerners is that innocent muslim people are being killed in our own 'acts of terrior'


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2017)

sawtooth said:



			We are not talking miliions of people here probably only a few thousand extremists in this country.

*Systematically weed them out with better and stronger intelligence and by working with the muslim society who don't want them anymore than we do.*

Then lock ISIS sympathisers up for good and anyone found travelling abroad for bomb making training and the like should never be allowed to return .

Strategically we need to stop interfering with matters abroad especially in countries with high muslim populations. The main driver for their hatred of westerners is that innocent muslim people are being killed in our own 'acts of terrior'
		
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I agree


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Having more cutbacks certainly won't help and if they are being missed now how can we guarantee we won't miss even more, 1 of the 3 was not on any list or being watched.
		
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More Plod in their cars is not the answer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			More Plod in their cars is not the answer.
		
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Yes it is, I'll play the game with you, the Police and local communities have stated one of the best deterrents and sources of information was policeing in the community and a valuable resource has been lost.

Also did not state more Police in cars did I?

We need more Police so they can cover all aspects of Policeing, not just the areas that suit your agenda.

We wouldn't need Troops on the streets if we had enough Police would we?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			More Plod in their cars is not the answer.
		
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Increasing the budget , the resources , intelligence and the footfall on all our security forces is a better answer than anything else offered up on here - it's also the most realistic, sensible , humane and best way to tackle any threats whilst also ensuring we keep the fabric of the UK in tact.


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Increasing the budget , the resources , intelligence and the footfall on all our security forces is a better answer than anything else offered up on here - it's also the most realistic, sensible , humane and best way to tackle any threats whilst also ensuring we keep the fabric of the UK in tact.
		
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[video=youtube;F5dyURwN4Uc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dyURwN4Uc[/video]


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## Fish (Jun 7, 2017)

sawtooth said:



			Systematically weed them out with better and stronger intelligence and by working with the muslim society who don't want them anymore than we do.

Then lock ISIS sympathisers up for good and anyone found travelling abroad for bomb making training and the like should never be allowed to return .'
		
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But this is the problem with our current laws, we know who they are, we film them and protect them on our streets and in demonstrations, we know they've travelled back to Syria and returned, we know they have been watched and stopped from travelling when living in other countries, BUT, we don't do anything proactively until it's too late and innocent lives have been lost. 

Your not going to catch these terrorists in the act, everything currently is in the past tense, extremists views and any acts of terrorist activity which includes preaching and spreading hate to incite violence and they are removed from the country with the citizenship they were afforded removed. If their British born then lock them up under HMP. 

We are an island, we are not land locked, we should be able to protect ourselves far easier than we are currently, we just need to take off the softly softly gloves. 

ID cards would help also imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2017)

bobmac said:



			[video=youtube;F5dyURwN4Uc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dyURwN4Uc[/video]
		
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And a massive reason why the Tories for me are dangerous - can't keep cutting everything and expect the same level of service , something is breaking and people will take advantage of the gaps being left by cuts


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## Fish (Jun 7, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And a massive reason why the Tories for me are dangerous - can't keep cutting everything and expect the same level of service , something is breaking and people will take advantage of the gaps being left by cuts
		
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There were no cuts in 2005 when 7/7 happened so what gaps were there then?  

and the Labour Party wanted cuts recently of at least a further 10% but the tories kept things as they were and actually increased areas of intelligence and armed officers. 

Your falling for the political volleyball that's being spewed out, labour change there mind and views on issues like the weather, do you honestly think Corbyn would invest more on armed officers, he's a huge left wing tree hugger, he's more dangerous than anyone and with Abbott by his side they are a disaster waiting to happen!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 7, 2017)

Fish said:



			There were no cuts in 2005 when 7/7 happened so what gaps were there then?  

and the Labour Party wanted cuts recently of at least a further 10% but the tories kept things as they were and actually increased areas of intelligence and armed officers. 

Your falling for the political volleyball that's being spewed out, labour change there mind and views on issues like the weather, do you honestly think Corbyn would invest more on armed officers, he's a huge left wing tree hugger, he's more dangerous than anyone and with Abbott by his side they are a disaster waiting to happen!
		
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I suspect that DA will be 'retired' from the Labour front bench.


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## sawtooth (Jun 7, 2017)

Fish said:



			But this is the problem with our current laws, we know who they are, we film them and protect them on our streets and in demonstrations, we know they've travelled back to Syria and returned, we know they have been watched and stopped from travelling when living in other countries, BUT, we don't do anything proactively until it's too late and innocent lives have been lost. 

Your not going to catch these terrorists in the act, everything currently is in the past tense, extremists views and any acts of terrorist activity which includes preaching and spreading hate to incite violence and they are removed from the country with the citizenship they were afforded removed. If their British born then lock them up under HMP. 

We are an island, we are not land locked, we should be able to protect ourselves far easier than we are currently, we just need to take off the softly softly gloves. 

ID cards would help also imo.
		
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I'm sure that the police and security services are already doing a lot of proactive work that will help identify suspects and prevent attacks from happening. 

Just need more of the same, employ more people to follow up on more leads and tip offs from the public. And then deal with the suspects firmly and decisively. If they continue to do that and at the same time prevent people identified as high risk from entering the country then things should start to settle down a bit - hopefully.

My plan to eradicate this would include but not be limited to the following_

1. Better security, more police  (armed and unarmed), and more people to investigate leads.
2. Punish people plotting to commit acts of terror very severly indeed
3. Prevent suspects including british nationals from returning to the UK if they have any cause for concern ie visiting bomb making schools
4. Force FB, Twitter, etc  to remove extremist material, cut lines of communication, etc
5. Pull troops from places like Libya, Syria, Saudi, etc and let the rest of the middle east and Israel deal with their own issues. UK intereference is the main reason we have become targets in the first place.
6. Somehow get the muslim leaders in this country to do more to out these extremists and report them to the authorities.


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## User62651 (Jun 7, 2017)

sawtooth said:



			My plan to eradicate this would include but not be limited to the following_

1. Better security, more police  (armed and unarmed), and more people to investigate leads.
2. Punish people plotting to commit acts of terror very severly indeed
3. Prevent suspects including british nationals from returning to the UK if they have any cause for concern ie visiting bomb making schools
4. Force FB, Twitter, etc  to remove extremist material, cut lines of communication, etc
5. Pull troops from places like Libya, Syria, Saudi, etc and let the rest of the middle east and Israel deal with their own issues. UK intereference is the main reason we have become targets in the first place.
6. Somehow get the muslim leaders in this country to do more to out these extremists and report them to the authorities.
		
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1-3 I agree with, 4 is unworkable, 5 is nigh on impossible as UK helped create Israel post WW2 and there'd be genocide if Israel wasn't backed by the west militarily. 6 I agree with and is happening to a degree but informants haven't been taken seriously or followed up in numerous cases that have gone on to lead to atrocities (see your point 1).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

Fish said:



			There were no cuts in 2005 when 7/7 happened so what gaps were there then?  

and the Labour Party wanted cuts recently of at least a further 10% but the tories kept things as they were and actually increased areas of intelligence and armed officers. 

Your falling for the political volleyball that's being spewed out, labour change there mind and views on issues like the weather, do you honestly think Corbyn would invest more on armed officers, he's a huge left wing tree hugger, he's more dangerous than anyone and with Abbott by his side they are a disaster waiting to happen!
		
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If it was so bad and obvious back in 2005 why haven't the tories done anything in the last 7 years to address your concerns, they admit themselves the security services have been cut, buying an IT system and filling it with nil experienced graduates to man it is not as good as boots on the ground, but it's cheaper.

May has done nothing but U turn she was home secretary for 5 years, why didn't she attempt all these changes to human rights before? Why announce it 2 days before an election.

You've been saying enough is enough for months/weeks on here, she said it sunday.

You can't put any of this on Labour, they've not had control since 2010.

Am I saying Labour would be better, no I'm not, I just don't get all this trust in TM.


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## Fish (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			If it was so bad and obvious back in 2005 why haven't the tories done anything in the last 7 years to address your concerns, they admit themselves the security services have been cut, buying an IT system and filling it with nil experienced graduates to man it is not as good as boots on the ground, but it's cheaper.

May has done nothing but U turn she was home secretary for 5 years, why didn't she attempt all these changes to human rights before? Why announce it 2 days before an election.

You've been saying enough is enough for months/weeks on here, she said it sunday.

You can't put any of this on Labour, they've not had control since 2010.

Am I saying Labour would be better, no I'm not, I just don't get all this trust in TM.
		
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You obviously announce changes because the threats and incidents have escalated recently, you can only make those recommendations and changes when you are faced with a growing situation, as we have in the last month, what us possibly ok and workable one month goes out the window 2 months later if there's an increase in terrorist activity at that time! 

Changes and recommendations have to evolve with what is happening in real time situations, I'm all for prevention rather than cure, but does that mean we have armed officers on every street corner? 

We all know Corbyns views on terrorism and any weapons, he's no answer to any faults May has, so I'll vote for her because to vote for him is too scary. 

Again one of these terrorists was refused asylum in the U.K., but them narried an Irish woman and came here, it's these links and intel that needs massively tightening up but Ireland are unfortunately a very weak link in these circumstances.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

Fish said:



			You obviously announce changes because the threats and incidents have escalated recently, you can only make those recommendations and changes when you are faced with a growing situation, as we have in the last month, what us possibly ok and workable one month goes out the window 2 months later if there's an increase in terrorist activity at that time! 

Changes and recommendations have to evolve with what is happening in real time situations, I'm all for prevention rather than cure, but does that mean we have armed officers on every street corner? 

We all know Corbyns views on terrorism and any weapons, he's no answer to any faults May has, so I'll vote for her because to vote for him is too scary. 

Again one of these terrorists was refused asylum in the U.K., but them narried an Irish woman and came here, it's these links and intel that needs massively tightening up but Ireland are unfortunately a very weak link in these circumstances.
		
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I understand and agree we can't stand still, I also don't think we need armed police on every corner, but these escalations have happened on their watch, the cutbacks have taken a toll and the only party that won't committ to more coppers or to stop the cuts is the tories, they seem to want to criticise everyone else rather than explain their actions.


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## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I understand and agree we can't stand still, I also don't think we need armed police on every corner, but these escalations have happened on their watch, the cutbacks have taken a toll and the only party that won't committ to more coppers or to stop the cuts is the tories, they seem to want to criticise everyone else rather than explain their actions.
		
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If you go back to the last budget there was a provision to recruit police to the pre 2014 levels, you may also wish to forget that Yvette Cooper when she was Shadow Home Secretary agreed with cuts to our police forces.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I understand and agree we can't stand still, I also don't think we need armed police on every corner, but these escalations have happened on their watch, the cutbacks have taken a toll and the only party that won't committ to more coppers or to stop the cuts is the tories, they seem to want to criticise everyone else rather than explain their actions.
		
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Old Skier said:



			If you go back to the last budget there was a provision to recruit police to the pre 2014 levels, you may also wish to forget that Yvette Cooper when she was Shadow Home Secretary agreed with cuts to our police forces.
		
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And the reduction started with the introduction of "Blunkett's Bobbies", replacing warranted officers with PCSO's.  Remind me which party he was with? 

Still, Corbyn can afford to promise to raise the numbers with dolally Diane getting them at 30p per annum.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 7, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			And the reduction started with the introduction of "Blunkett's Bobbies", replacing warranted officers with PCSO's.  Remind me which party he was with? 

Still, Corbyn can afford to promise to raise the numbers with dolally Diane getting them at 30p per annum.
		
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Genuine q, do you think that no conservative MPs have made mistakes with their numbers in the build up to this election? (ignoring the fact they have refused to cost anything).


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Genuine q, do you think that no conservative MPs have made mistakes with their numbers in the build up to this election? (ignoring the fact they have refused to cost anything).
		
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I'm not sure how Conservative MP's can make mistakes with their figures if they have refused to cost anything; sounds like a strong & stable policy to me!  

Genuine answer, I'm sure that in their indecent haste to score points over each other with scant regard to actually providing the electorate with facts, politicians from all parties have made mistakes with their figures but Ms. Abbott seems to have made more than most and higher profile ones.

She is, incidentally, no longer shadow Home Secretary, I wonder why that happened?


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## Smiffy (Jun 7, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Increasing the budget , the resources , intelligence and the footfall on all our security forces is a better answer than anything else offered up on here -
		
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For Â£40k a year I'll gladly study CCTV footage and bubble them.
I bet all those nutjobs I've seen on TV screaming "death to the police, soldiers" etc. etc. are still walking around scot free and un-challenged.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			And the reduction started with the introduction of "Blunkett's Bobbies", replacing warranted officers with PCSO's.  Remind me which party he was with? 

Still, Corbyn can afford to promise to raise the numbers with dolally Diane getting them at 30p per annum.
		
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I get all that, but the tories still could of reversed the damage labour did prior to 2010.

That's why they both annoy me, they blame each other rather than taking responsibility.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I get all that, but the tories still could of reversed the damage labour did prior to 2010.

That's why they both annoy me, they blame each other rather than taking responsibility.
		
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I'm not sure they could in terms of returning everyone to warranted officer status mate, but in terms of absolute numbers they could probably done something; whether or not that would go as far as fully reversing it I'm not sure.

No argument at all with your second point.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes it is, I'll play the game with you, the Police and local communities have stated one of the best deterrents and sources of information was policeing in the community and a valuable resource has been lost.

Also did not state more Police in cars did I?

We need more Police so they can cover all aspects of Policeing, not just the areas that suit your agenda.

We wouldn't need Troops on the streets if we had enough Police would we?
		
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Did more Police on the streets prevent terror attacks in the past!   Of course not, it's just not that simple.

Returning to a previous thread on police. If those police attacked in the London Bridge incident had been armed then the terrorists may well have been stopped earlier and many deaths and injury prevented.  That Policeman had only his baton to attack them with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Did more Police on the streets prevent terror attacks in the past!   Of course not, it's just not that simple.

Returning to a previous thread on police. If those police attacked in the London Bridge incident had been armed then the terrorists may well have been stopped earlier and many deaths and injury prevented.  That Policeman had only his baton to attack them with.
		
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If my Auntie had a penis she'd be my uncle.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			If my Auntie had a penis she'd be my uncle.
		
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If she had a penis She would probably be both


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## Khamelion (Jun 8, 2017)

There's a video on You Tube showing the three terrorists stabbing a member of the public and the Police arriving and then shooting them, not going to post up the video as some may find it disturbing, but if you do want to view it, this is the link  https://youtu.be/BvvzDY9j7Cc


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