# How can a par/bogey competition be a qualifier



## louise_a (Sep 23, 2013)

found out today that this type of comp was a qualifier and I can work out why.

My reasoning is a follows, take a 18 handicapper, they get a shot a hole, so if they have 4 net birdies and 4 net bogies and 10 net pars, they would finish up with  score of 0 in a par comp, had it been a stableford they would have scored 36 points.  Now if the same golfer had 4 net birdies and 4 net double bogies they would still have a par score of 0, but had it been a stableford they would have scored 32 points.

So how can you use a par comp for handicap, especially as once you can't half the hole you would pick up?


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## virtuocity (Sep 23, 2013)

louise_a said:



			So how can you use a par comp for handicap, especially as once you can't half the hole you would pick up?
		
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I think that's just it- you don't pick up until you've exceeded net double bogey, if I understand things correctly.  Seems daft, doesn't it?


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## Foxholer (Sep 23, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I think that's just it- you don't pick up until you've exceeded net double bogey, if I understand things correctly.  Seems daft, doesn't it?
		
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Nope! You can pick up as soon as you can't make nett Par! 

I'm not altogether convinced about being a qualifier, but it's really not that much different from (not) having a Stableford Adjustment in the current system.


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## Crow (Sep 23, 2013)

It's just one of those strange things.

What you say is absolutely right, you could score +3 in a bogey comp and yet score 33 points Stableford, so in one format you'd be three under handicap but in the other you'd be three over handicap for exactly the same card. 
Or you could score -3 in a bogey comp and 39 points Stableford.

It's just the way it is. Many don't like bogey comps but I do as it means you can be more aggressive with those net par puts and don't have to worry about the one back for a Stableford point, although in my last bogey comp I was -7


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## chrisd (Sep 24, 2013)

The rules of golf actually state that you don't need to record a score where a competitor has a nett score greater than par for the hole in a bogey comp. The comp is played under strokeplay rules and therefore is properly governed and the Congu book has a table to work out handicap adjustments and I assume that it's inbuilt into club computers  as well


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## louise_a (Sep 24, 2013)

Thanks for the comments, but I still don't get how it can be a qualifier.

During a recent medal at the club I had a net 76, par 72, CSS 72, but due to my erratic scoring this was  adjusted to 72, I would have scored 36 points had it been a Stableford comp, so no handicap change. 
However, if it had been a par comp I would have been +2 which according to the Congu tables would have been a net differential of -2 and so a cut of 0.6 would have been in order.


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## Birchy (Sep 24, 2013)

Sounds like just another cop out way of getting handicap cuts.

Qualifying comps should be medal only, proper golf the way its supposed to be played imo.


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## Region3 (Sep 24, 2013)




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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2013)

On Saturday I shot +3 off 5, but the strokeplay score was 75 against a par of 72, CSS 72. Cut 0.3 to 5.0. Chuffed to bits with the cut. The holes I dropped shots on read bogey, double bogey, bogey, bogey - none were shot holes... and I haven't got a clue why the cut was 0.3.


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## louise_a (Sep 24, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			On Saturday I shot +3 off 5, but the strokeplay score was 75 against a par of 72, CSS 72. Cut 0.3 to 5.0. Chuffed to bits with the cut. The holes I dropped shots on read bogey, double bogey, bogey, bogey - none were shot holes... and I haven't got a clue why the cut was 0.3.
		
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If par=CSS then +3 is equal to a net differential of-3 so the 0.3 cut is correct based on the Congu tables.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Sounds like just another cop out way of getting handicap cuts.

Qualifying comps should be medal only, proper golf the way its supposed to be played imo.
		
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So no Stablefords either?


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## cookelad (Sep 24, 2013)

I agree I can't see how it can be a qualifier - played my first bogey comp a couple of weeks ago, went for everything thinking well it can't be a qualifier being "matchplay" and all, knocked in a couple of good birdies but made more bogeys and got to the stage in my mind where I'd lost 4&3 - needless to say by the time I reached the 18th I was -7, because well what's the point in trying at that point! 

I'd love to see the formula they use because it's gotta be really clever, in theory a golfer could be 9 under or over his/her handicap and walk off on 0 (zero) 9 nett eagles and 9 net bogeys.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2013)

cookelad said:



			I'd love to see the formula they use because it's gotta be really clever, in theory a golfer could be 9 under or over his/her handicap and walk off on 0 (zero) 9 nett eagles and 9 net bogeys.
		
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http://www.englandgolf.org/e-brochure/index.html

Appendix D. Page 62


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## cookelad (Sep 24, 2013)

Foxholer said:



http://www.englandgolf.org/e-brochure/index.html

Appendix D. Page 62
		
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Not really a formula is it, just a table that says if CSS is 2 below par then you need to be +2 to play to your handicap

I'm not convinced that works - For example a player (18hcp for arguments sake) could walk off the 18th green with 38 stableford points but because he'd had 2 nett eagles 3 nett birdies and 5 nett single bogeys he's finished the bogey comp at 0, so assuming par=css on the course played he wouldn't get a cut.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2013)

cookelad said:



			Not really a formula is it, just a table that says if CSS is 2 below par then you need to be +2 to play to your handicap

I'm not convinced that works - For example a player (18hcp for arguments sake) could walk off the 18th green with 38 stableford points but because he'd had 2 nett eagles 3 nett birdies and 5 nett single bogeys he's finished the bogey comp at 0, so assuming par=css on the course played he wouldn't get a cut.
		
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It's a table that converts Bogey Score to Nett Differential, which is what is used to calculate Handicap Adjustment. 

Formula is ND = (BogScor - (CSS - Par)) * -1

Note there's a line for Stableford there too - formula for that is ND = (StabScor - 36 - (Par - CSS)) * -1

A negative ND means a cut; ND > Category = +0.1

I agree it's not as obvious as the usual calc and subject to a bit of varieation (I've been a 'victim' of Birdie-ing a shot hole and not getting the same reward as Stableford/Medal comps. statistically though, it's just as valid (overall), provided there are sufficient players.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2013)

Are Bogy Comps not a form of Match Play?  You against the course.    In this respect it cant really be considered Stableford.


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## duncan mackie (Sep 24, 2013)

louise_a said:



			So how can you use a par comp for handicap, especially as once you can't half the hole you would pick up?
		
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foxy seems to be fighting a loosing battle, so I will join in 

the argument you present is equally valid to stableford - at some point it makes no difference if you pick up or putt out.

but wait (as a famous advert that I can't remember what for says) there's more - even in medal competition you might as well pick up beyond the same point as a stableford comp *from a handicap perspective*, exactly the same.

put another way, you aren't handicapped to a medal result, only the underlying stableford - so what's wrong with applying the same to a par/bogey comp?


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## rosecott (Sep 24, 2013)

cookelad said:



			I'm not convinced that works - For example a player (18hcp for arguments sake) could walk off the 18th green with 38 stableford points but because he'd had 2 nett eagles 3 nett birdies and 5 nett single bogeys he's finished the bogey comp at 0, so assuming par=css on the course played he wouldn't get a cut.
		
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But he's not playing a stableford, he stood on the first tee knowing he was playing in a Bogey comp, so a nett birdie is enough to win the hole.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			foxy seems to be fighting a loosing battle, so I will join in 

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Not so much fighting a losing battle. I'm not convinced myself!:mmm: My issie is the same as others - that there's no credit for Birdie-ing a shot hole and no penalty for blob-ing one. I'm satisfied that, in a large enough field, 'statistics' mean there's little difference to other Strokeply forms from a results point of view, so it's valid to have it as a qualifier. I wouldn't object though if a club manufactured circumstances to make it an NQ-er though!

@Socket. Here's an extract from Ru;le 32 Bogey/Par Comps...

Bogey, par and Stableford competitions are forms of stroke play in which play is against a fixed score at each hole. The Rules for stroke play, so far as they are not at variance with the following specific Rules, apply. 
In handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.


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## louise_a (Sep 24, 2013)

rosecott said:



			But he's not playing a stableford, he stood on the first tee knowing he was playing in a Bogey comp, so a nett birdie is enough to win the hole.
		
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This is true, but surely the fact that a net bogey and a net double bogey have the same effect on your score in a par comp but a different effect in a stableford and a medal, must mean that using a par comp as a qualifier is flawed.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2013)

louise_a said:



			This is true, but surely the fact that a net bogey and a net double bogey have the same effect on your score in a par comp but a different effect in a stableford and a medal, must mean that using a par comp as a qualifier is flawed.
		
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You play a bit of Matchplay don't you.

How does it work there? Does it matter if you lose a hole by 1 shot or 2? Surely that's the same?


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## louise_a (Sep 24, 2013)

no it doesn't matter, but matchplay games are not qualifiers.


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## Birchy (Sep 24, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			So no Stablefords either?
		
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Nope. Dont think its proper golf or how it should be played for qualifying competitions.

Stableford is ok for a friendly game to make it interesting.


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## rosecott (Sep 24, 2013)

louise_a said:



			This is true, but surely the fact that a net bogey and a net double bogey have the same effect on your score in a par comp but a different effect in a stableford and a medal, must mean that using a par comp as a qualifier is flawed.
		
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You can also say that stableford is inherently flawed as a horrendously high score on a hole is masked by "a blob".


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Nope. Dont think its proper golf or how it should be played for qualifying competitions.

Stableford is ok for a friendly game to make it interesting.
		
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Well, that is *EXACTLY* how the handicap scoring system works! In *EVERY QUALIFYING COMPETITION*! Minus the Bogey/Par ones we ae discussing of course!


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 24, 2013)

We have a two round bogey event normally over the Easter weekend and has always been a qualifier and that has been a bone of contention amongst the members for many years


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## louise_a (Sep 24, 2013)

rosecott said:



			You can also say that stableford is inherently flawed as a horrendously high score on a hole is masked by "a blob".
		
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You could say that, but as an horrendous score on a hole in a medal is rounded down to a nett double bogey for handicap purposes at least they are both standard, unlike a par comp when the worst you can score on a hole is a net bogey.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2013)

Lets consider this.  Bogey comps are matchplay against the course but unlike 'normal' matchplay everyone in the competition is playing against the same opponent, who always plays par.  So, in this case its fair to award or penalise each player on their comparative results.

As the comp is a form of matchplay it matters not a hoot by what score you win a hole by as long as you win it.  I guess if someone is offended by the format then there are other competitions to play in.

I think I have convinced myself it's OK :thup:


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2013)

A slight, pedantic?, correction. wrt to 'Matchplay',

While commonly termed 'matchplay against the course', Bogey/Par comps are Strokepley, not Matchplay.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			A slight, pedantic?, correction. 

While commonly termed 'matchplay against the course', Bogey/Par comps are *Strokeplay*, not Matchplay.
		
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Sorry couldn't help it


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