# Pace Of Play - what can be done to improve it



## MikeH (Aug 18, 2015)

Evening all

we are compiling a major pace of play piece and are keen to hear about any initiatives the club/course you play at has to improve pace of play

this one is pretty cool... a free pint if you get round in good time!
http://www.gmsgolf.co.uk/wycombe-heights-golf-centre-takes-firm-stance-on-pace-of-play/

also keen to hear about the things you feel can make a real difference when it comes to speeding up play

over to you!


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 18, 2015)

Hi Mike just a question,is this not going over old ground?

I have noticed the magazine has covered this on numerous occasions and I do remember yourself in the editors notes covering slow play.

We have also covered it on numerous occasions on this forum and the answers will always be the same.

Imo until some actions are taken and shots added to scores and someone actually stands up to the big players and not 14 year old kids it could be a problem that will not go away soon.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 18, 2015)

Evening Mike, Courses need to be realistic about how long a round should take, ie, midweek 4 Ball playing for fun against a 4 Ball in a Club Comp at weekends, one size doesn't fit all.
Also they should time the difference between abilities and handicaps.
Finally, all members should have the equivalent "driving" license like they do on the Continent, it covers rules etiquette ability etc.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 18, 2015)

The problem with having a specific time limit like W.Heights free pint initiative is that there are many reasons that a round can take more than the allotted time without actually playing slowly.
A certain pace of play is desirable but, for instance, taking 5 minutes to search for a ball on every hole adds 90 minutes to the round.! OK that's extreme but even every other hole equates to 45 minutes. That in itself is not playing slowly and if held up groups are let through asap the delays are reduced to a minimum.
Education is, for me, the key.
On the Continent they have, or at least used to have, a policy of making players take an etiquette and basic rules test before they were allowed to play.
They have to show understanding of when to let people through, how to behave etc etc.
If that was done here it would put paid to a lot of slow play.
The downsides are that..
1. You don't catch casual golfers who do not join clubs
2. Its gonna cost and nobody will want to pay.

Slow play, as far as I'm concerned, is more to do with taking too long over pre shot routines, not being ready to play, leaving your bag in the wrong place and trying to emulate the Pros, rather than a specific amount of time taken.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2015)

Education is IMO the biggest thing - letting players know the best way to move around a course - putting trolleys at exits , marking card on next tee , ensureing when its your turn you are ready to play for examples

Playing ready golf more often ie dont worry about honour etc


----------



## stevelev (Aug 18, 2015)

I think at Club Level members and visitors need to be educated that Single Players still count as a group, and that even when playing in a competition if your holding a whole course up the right thing to do is let people start to play through.

It isn't always women but at Eccleston Park Golf Club, the ladies comp today would not let a single player play through (our 3 groups let him through on the 7th / 8th holes) and he spent the rest of the round with a group of women on every tee, they still wouldn't let him play through as he wasn't in the comp. I say today it is the same every Tuesday and Thursday they really are Sloooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwww. :yawn

Small Fixes:

Look at how courses are Marshalled, a lot of clubs have Marshalls carrying out menial maintenance tasks which do not actually benefit the pace of play. Maybe if clubs allocated Marshalls to areas of the course where balls are commonly fired during comps so they can spot and help players find their ball easier thus reducing time spent searching.

Remind player to read a notice board that indicates desired round times and etiquette, so when the Marshalls do approach them for causing undue delay they can be reminded of the notice board. If they offend a couple of times per round Marshalls should have the right to hold the group until other groups have played through, a lot of Marshalls will only ask can the offending group show willing and let the chasing group through.

Penalise ALL pro's on Professional tours for breaches causing delays or taking in excess of the allocated time per shot. Give them one warning per season, then for each offence add a penalty based on how many offences (2 shots for 2 offences, 3 for 3rd, 4 for 4th, 5 for 5th and so on) it will soon stop them, but like in football the governing bodies are too gutless to impose the penalties. At club level move slow player to the last group(s) of the day they'll soon speed up so the can get home before it goes dark.

Reduce groups to maximum 3 balls with 10 minute intervals (more and more clubs care about loss of visitor income than looking after members. This would leave a small gap so when a ball goes into the rough, a couple minutes of searching will not affect the group behind. We play 8 minute intervals and that 2 mins difference is massive when looking in an area you know your ball to be..

Like other though the biggest influence on reducing slow play is to look at the role models (pro golfers) who go unpunished. We all try to emulate them and without even realising this also includes taking longer to play rounds. Come on PGA and USPGA get a grip and promote prompt play, and strict time keeping.


----------



## GB72 (Aug 18, 2015)

Pair up more people and get groups of even size on the course. Medals and other comps at my place rarely seem slow to members as everyone is in a similar sized group and thus roughly playing at a similar pace.

Reduce the time to look for lost balls or if more than one ball is lost in a group give the whole group 5 minutes to find all the missing balls.

Keep the rough to a level where it penalises the next shot but does not mean a lost ball.

Actually grow a pair and have clubs penalise those who hold up the course. We all know who they are so put them at the back of the field until they get the hint.

Ensure that competition groups have a mix of abilities yo even out the pace of the course.

Or be really extreme. Ban playing through totally. Stop the 1 and 2 balls trying to play through a packed course of 4 balls and slowing the pace of play gor everyone. Encourage people to enjoy their time in the fresh air


----------



## backwoodsman (Aug 19, 2015)

As slow play is basically down to attitude, I really don't know how to speed things up. One knows plenty of simple things that would do it, but how do you change people's mindset to get them to do them? 

How often do you see all three (or 4) people in a group, or line, level with one ball who wait while it's played, then all move to the next ball. How do you break this habit & get people to walk to their own ball.

Linked to above, if you have a PSR, do it whilst otthers are playing their shot

Let. Faster. Groups. Through. (That's my way of gritting ones teeth in writing) Why will people not do it and how do you persuade them to do so.

I could go on but... One has tried to persuade people to change but do they? Heckerslike.


----------



## Smiffy (Aug 19, 2015)

Two or three things annoy me on a golf course and contribute to slow play.

A) Players not being ready to putt when it's their turn. They mark the ball and then wait until the other player has putted before getting their line etc. They could be lining up and getting an "idea" whilst the other guy is putting, as long as they are not disturbing him. 

B) Players not being ready to tee off when it is their turn. They step up onto the tee and then stand there whilst their playing partner tees off before deciding to go back to their bag and get their club out. I always have my club ready in hand to step onto the tee as soon as the other guy has played. I can understand it on a par 3 where there might be a little doubt on which club to hit, but on a par 4 or 5 where they know they are going to hit a driver, why the hell haven't they got their club ready?

C) Players continuing to play a hole when they have not a hope in hell of making a score. Again, I can understand it in a medal when they don't want to N/R but in a Stableford??? It annoys the hell out of me when I see score cards with anything above an 8 marked on them. Just put a "dash" through it and go and tend the flag for Gods sake.
There are other things but how long have we got?


----------



## Imurg (Aug 19, 2015)

Further to the Education angle, its pointless just educating new players. That might solve the problem in about 50 years.
All players, old and new, need educating. 
Everyone who plays should have some kind of training before they play.
Who goes to play Rugby, Cricket or Footy without knowing the rules or etiquette of the game, even if some games don't have much..!
Education for all, but it won't ever happen because nobody will pay for it.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 19, 2015)

The best thing about golf is that it is welcome to all people of all ability and age to play the idea of "rules and etiquette" training just would add to the stuffy image of the game

There are thousands who start the game up and are more the capable of understanding the basic etiquette and rules and pick up the rest as they go - if you say to something "you can't play on the course until you learn this etiquette package" then the majority would just say stuff it and walk away.

And mainly in my experience the slow play and poor etiquette isn't from the new players to the game - it's the guys that have been playing the game a decent amount of time


----------



## Canary_Yellow (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			Evening all

we are compiling a major pace of play piece and are keen to hear about any initiatives the club/course you play at has to improve pace of play

this one is pretty cool... a free pint if you get round in good time!
http://www.gmsgolf.co.uk/wycombe-heights-golf-centre-takes-firm-stance-on-pace-of-play/

also keen to hear about the things you feel can make a real difference when it comes to speeding up play

over to you!
		
Click to expand...

We played Wycombe heights a few weeks ago on a Saturday at lunch time. Thought it was going to be hellishly slow, particularly given the incentives offered for not being slow.

As it turned out, the pace of play was very good. 

I'm not sure if those incentives made much difference but there were quite a few very friendly marshalls on the course that did an excellent job of keeping things moving.


----------



## john0 (Aug 19, 2015)

Restrict the old timers to only playing as 2 balls


----------



## Smiffy (Aug 19, 2015)

john0 said:



			Restrict the old timers to only playing as 2 balls
		
Click to expand...

Oh JohnO


----------



## chrisd (Aug 19, 2015)

How about shooting the last player walking up random fairways, I think that would speed things up a little!


----------



## Slab (Aug 19, 2015)

It always seems to be one of the biggest talking points online and in mags but that R&A survey didnâ€™t find it was a deal breaker for players they surveyed and the trouble is lots of us think we know how to â€˜cureâ€™ slow play but the reality is most of it would have a superficial impact at best 

Most of the â€˜curesâ€™ can be picked apart and argued from both sides, weâ€™ve already had one in â€˜let a single through/donâ€™t let a single throughâ€™ and thatâ€™s just in the first few posts

Just to take a couple more examples. Education, how many golfers actually donâ€™t know how to speed up their play if they had to? Yet poor education is cited all the time as a major cause. Just how many uneducated golfers are taking part in your clubs monthly medals that already last 4 Â½ + hours! Itâ€™s far more likely itâ€™s a lack of motivation or desire to speed up  

Bags/trolleys on wrong side, itâ€™s a tiny number of times Iâ€™ve ever seen this happen. Leaving a bag at point of entry to the green is not the wrong side_ in terms of overall pace of a round_. To be the wrong side of a green _to impact pace_ it would need to be equidistant from both point of entry and point of exit, who does this! There is absolutely a placebo effect for the following group to see bags left at point of exit instead of point of entry but it has zero impact on the elapsed time 

Proâ€™s on TV set bad example, nah not buying it. Maybe if we were all impressionable pre pubescent teens would some TV footage of a pro change you to emulate them regarding pace but (sadly) the courses arenâ€™t full of kids, its mature adults weâ€™re talking about here. Really when was the last time a TV show inspired a meaningful change in your behaviour?

We have some pretty random times allocated for how long a round should take and some folks seem to have adopted these as gospel and any variance is deemed slow when the reality is that dozens of things will slow the pace for the day from rain to pin positions, tee gaps to rough length, group sizes to game format etc and when they do kick in and inevitably slow things down its the player who marked his card beside the green that will be blamed for adding 40 minutes to your game & roundly beaten with a wedge

Itâ€™s like the driving distance claims, â€˜we once went round in idyllic conditions as a 4-ball in 3:20 so anything over say 3:30 is slowâ€™ 
Jeez, even changing 2 or 3 pin positions could create a new chokepoint on the course that didnâ€™t exist the day before and add 10 minutes to a round       

To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, weâ€™re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about whatâ€™s slow and if we actually see something that doesnâ€™t fit with our own â€˜pace modelâ€™ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they â€˜broke our rhythmâ€™ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)

I think there are lots of good ideas and initiatives out there that individual clubs adopt and implement but it lacks a cohesive, coordinated approach from the governing bodies to drive a meaningful change across the game


----------



## duncan mackie (Aug 19, 2015)

Slab said:



			It always seems to be one of the biggest talking points online and in mags but that R&A survey didnâ€™t find it was a deal breaker for players they surveyed and the trouble is lots of us think we know how to â€˜cureâ€™ slow play but the reality is most of it would have a superficial impact at best 

Most of the â€˜curesâ€™ can be picked apart and argued from both sides, weâ€™ve already had one in â€˜let a single through/donâ€™t let a single throughâ€™ and thatâ€™s just in the first few posts

Just to take a couple more examples. Education, how many golfers actually donâ€™t know how to speed up their play if they had to? Yet poor education is cited all the time as a major cause. Just how many uneducated golfers are taking part in your clubs monthly medals that already last 4 Â½ + hours! Itâ€™s far more likely itâ€™s a lack of motivation or desire to speed up  

Bags/trolleys on wrong side, itâ€™s a tiny number of times Iâ€™ve ever seen this happen. Leaving a bag at point of entry to the green is not the wrong side_ in terms of overall pace of a round_. To be the wrong side of a green _to impact pace_ it would need to be equidistant from both point of entry and point of exit, who does this! There is absolutely a placebo effect for the following group to see bags left at point of exit instead of point of entry but it has zero impact on the elapsed time 

Proâ€™s on TV set bad example, nah not buying it. Maybe if we were all impressionable pre pubescent teens would some TV footage of a pro change you to emulate them regarding pace but (sadly) the courses arenâ€™t full of kids, its mature adults weâ€™re talking about here. Really when was the last time a TV show inspired a meaningful change in your behaviour?

We have some pretty random times allocated for how long a round should take and some folks seem to have adopted these as gospel and any variance is deemed slow when the reality is that dozens of things will slow the pace for the day from rain to pin positions, tee gaps to rough length, group sizes to game format etc and when they do kick in and inevitably slow things down its the player who marked his card beside the green that will be blamed for adding 40 minutes to your game & roundly beaten with a wedge

Itâ€™s like the driving distance claims, â€˜we once went round in idyllic conditions as a 4-ball in 3:20 so anything over say 3:30 is slowâ€™ 
Jeez, even changing 2 or 3 pin positions could create a new chokepoint on the course that didnâ€™t exist the day before and add 10 minutes to a round       

To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, weâ€™re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about whatâ€™s slow and if we actually see something that doesnâ€™t fit with our own â€˜pace modelâ€™ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they â€˜broke our rhythmâ€™ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)

I think there are lots of good ideas and initiatives out there that individual clubs adopt and implement but it lacks a cohesive, coordinated approach from the governing bodies to drive a meaningful change across the game
		
Click to expand...

This covers all the practical points...

The reality of slow play is rather simpler - if everyone respected other course users, the old do to them as you would wish to be done to, one facet of the problem would be resolved. As they simply do not; the only practical solution is an active course Marshall with clear powers that are supported by the management/membership.

The other facet is expectation. If a course has mixed groups using a single tee then expectations need to be managed from the decision to play then through booking in and teeing off. If a field of 30 Ã— 4 balls is booked off then a 2 ball in a buggy should know that they are playing 4 ball speed because it's simply not practical to play through such a field. On the other hand 3 X 4 balls with a lot of 2 and 3 balls should be told to let the field through if they are caught up quickly.

Finally tee spacing should be such that there is a small gap between groups - if the following group tee off on the first as soon as the previous one is out of range (for them) you effectively create a slow play issue instantly - without anyone having done anything wrong! That it subsequently prevents a course breathing has also been proved to affect the time groups will take generally to get round.


----------



## chellie (Aug 19, 2015)

Slab said:



			It always seems to be one of the biggest talking points online and in mags but that R&A survey didnâ€™t find it was a deal breaker for players they surveyed and the trouble is lots of us think we know how to â€˜cureâ€™ slow play but the reality is most of it would have a superficial impact at best 

Most of the â€˜curesâ€™ can be picked apart and argued from both sides, weâ€™ve already had one in â€˜let a single through/donâ€™t let a single throughâ€™ and thatâ€™s just in the first few posts

Just to take a couple more examples. Education, how many golfers actually donâ€™t know how to speed up their play if they had to? Yet poor education is cited all the time as a major cause. Just how many uneducated golfers are taking part in your clubs monthly medals that already last 4 Â½ + hours! Itâ€™s far more likely itâ€™s a lack of motivation or desire to speed up  

Bags/trolleys on wrong side, itâ€™s a tiny number of times Iâ€™ve ever seen this happen. Leaving a bag at point of entry to the green is not the wrong side_ in terms of overall pace of a round_. To be the wrong side of a green _to impact pace_ it would need to be equidistant from both point of entry and point of exit, who does this! There is absolutely a placebo effect for the following group to see bags left at point of exit instead of point of entry but it has zero impact on the elapsed time 

Proâ€™s on TV set bad example, nah not buying it. Maybe if we were all impressionable pre pubescent teens would some TV footage of a pro change you to emulate them regarding pace but (sadly) the courses arenâ€™t full of kids, its mature adults weâ€™re talking about here. Really when was the last time a TV show inspired a meaningful change in your behaviour?

We have some pretty random times allocated for how long a round should take and some folks seem to have adopted these as gospel and any variance is deemed slow when the reality is that dozens of things will slow the pace for the day from rain to pin positions, tee gaps to rough length, group sizes to game format etc and when they do kick in and inevitably slow things down its the player who marked his card beside the green that will be blamed for adding 40 minutes to your game & roundly beaten with a wedge

Itâ€™s like the driving distance claims, â€˜we once went round in idyllic conditions as a 4-ball in 3:20 so anything over say 3:30 is slowâ€™ 
Jeez, even changing 2 or 3 pin positions could create a new chokepoint on the course that didnâ€™t exist the day before and add 10 minutes to a round       

To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, weâ€™re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about whatâ€™s slow and if we actually see something that doesnâ€™t fit with our own â€˜pace modelâ€™ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they â€˜broke our rhythmâ€™ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)

I think there are lots of good ideas and initiatives out there that individual clubs adopt and implement but it lacks a cohesive, coordinated approach from the governing bodies to drive a meaningful change across the game
		
Click to expand...

What a brilliant post. I'm finding the constant "slow play is killing the game" on the internet, magazines etc really boring. 

If someone wants to charge round a course at break neck speed then going out first thing would be my suggestion.


----------



## MashieNiblick (Aug 19, 2015)

Good post by Slab

Some sympathy with the view that this is going over old ground. IRRC the recent R&A survey suggested that actually on average play wasn't that slow in the UK. So I wonder if it really is as big a problem as we think. Would be interesting to have a poll on here as to whether people find _generally _that slow play is an issue at their club (rather than one off bad experiences).

I only rarely feel play is slow. It is usually big comps on unfamiliar courses but that is to be expected. We know the various ways in which people can play faster without too much effort and of course they should be promoted but it is inevitable that players don't always follow these all the time. 

Posts on here in the past have suggested that there is disagreement as to what is "slow" is (within certain limits). Some would say 4 hours is slow others wouldn't. It is largely relative - the group in front is "slow" if they are holding you up. When I play I don't like having to rush, but equally I don't like being held up. Some people are slow but reasons vary and I doubt whether many of them are likely to or even able to change how they play. Sometimes play feels slow when in fact it isn't and vice versa. 

We do have to accept that people play at different speeds. I often play in group which includes a 75 year old. He is very fit but he won't be rushing round. We tee off late (usually last)  in comps and often have no one behind us. Should we be trying to get round in 3 1/2 hours? Should we all have to play at the same pace as the fastest group? Equally though we shouldn't all have to play at the pace of the slowest group. Perhaps the key is simply to encourage people to let faster groups through; if we all did that we could all play at the pace that suits us.

Good idea for each club to assess it's own situation based on evidence and members experiences and wishes to find out what the issues are, rather than look for generic solutions to what may not be a problem.


----------



## el marko (Aug 19, 2015)

I've tried putting this idea forward to teeofftimes. Why can't they display how many players have booked for the given tee time? If I knew that at 4pm i would be stuck behind 10 tee times of 4 balls I wouldn't book it. I would look for a time that has less players during the tee times. 

Perhaps clubs could block out 4 ball only slots. So you never get masses of 1 and 2 balls queuing up behind.


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2015)

I'd like players to have to sign back in with the pro, or a club representative, at the end of a competition round. If the player/group is outside of a time accepted as reasonable for the course they get a 2 stroke penalty and a 'yellow card.' 3 yellow cards in two months sees a 2 comp ban. Harsh but it'll sort the problem.


----------



## Snelly (Aug 19, 2015)

Ideas to speed up play. 

Weekly shot penalties to pros on the tours who are slow - i.e. taking longer than 3.5 hours for 18 holes as a two ball  Start with Speith, Woods etc.  The higher profile,the better.  They would speed up and the avalanche of publicity would have a global effect on the golf world right down to the lowest level. 



Hammer home the message that when it is your turn to play your shot, you have to be ready to hit the ball.  Not be ready to start your two minutes of stupid faffing about.   

It is your honour, hit the ball - NOW!  If everyone understood this and put it into practice, slow play would simply disappear. 

This simple message should come through all media platforms with mind numbing frequency from the R&A, the manufacturers, the golfing press, the golf tours and all golfers around the world.  Spread the word. It will work....


----------



## Snelly (Aug 19, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I'd like players to have to sign back in with the pro, or a club representative, at the end of a competition round. If the player/group is outside of a time accepted as reasonable for the course they get a 2 stroke penalty and a 'yellow card.' 3 yellow cards in two months sees a 2 comp ban. Harsh but it'll sort the problem.
		
Click to expand...

Great idea. I support this 100%.


----------



## sportsbob (Aug 19, 2015)

I agree that education of players would save a bit of time, marking cards on the next tee, being ready to play when it is your turn, playing ready golf etc. but I think courses could make changes in order to speed up play. I am not talking about reducing yardages on holes or anything like that. The main reason for delays on golf courses is people looking for their balls. Not only does it slow the individual down, but those playing with you whilst they search for the partners ball - (not being ready to play). We are not all pros playing, we don't expect to hit every fairway so we do go off line. Picture this, you hit your drive, miss the fairway and end up in the tree line. You then spend 3-4 minutes looking for the ball as not only are you in amongst the trees, but you have ankle deep rough. How many courses are like this? Surely the trees are enough of a hindrance so why do courses have think rough as well. The less time we spend looking for balls, the quicker the rounds will be... for everyone


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 19, 2015)

One way to help is to stop comparing the speed of the professional game to the amatuer game, they are playing for their livelihoods and hundreds of millions of pounds and if any amatuer was risking that they'd be slower, if you want to speed the top players up, let them use buggies, I don't care if Rory walks floats or is driven to his ball, but once there, leave him be to take the shot.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 19, 2015)

It always seems to me that the course is particularly slow when there is a men's medal on. One of the reasons, I think, is the insistence that all players play from the longest, most difficult tee positions regardless of their ability (or inability) to do so.

I think the idea of all men playing off the white tees in all comps needs to be scrapped. Only players of a proven level of ability should be playing from there, higher handicaps can go off the yellows. In fact, get the reds measured for a male SSS and put the high handicaps off from there. Adjust scores based on SSS for the tees used by the player.


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Great idea. I support this 100%.
		
Click to expand...

My playing group had a fairly slow round yesterday. This was mainly due to going into lots of bunkers, which had to be raked after the shot, and searching for balls in the knee high rough our course insists on having. Obviously you should leave bunkers in the same condition, or better, than you found them. Fortunately we didn't hold up the following group, because they were even slower! Being mostly old gits, at least we weren't emulating the mannerisms and pre-shot routines of the tour pros, so our round took just over 4 hours and not 6 hours!


----------



## bobmac (Aug 19, 2015)

We are all different
Some folk like to play quickly others prefer a more sedate wander round.
Who is right?
Both/neither and who are we to TELL people to walk faster/play quicker if they dont want to.

What annoys people as far as I can see is not how long their game takes, it's how long they spend waiting.

The only way I can see of improving things is to make sure the slow folk and the sprinters are kept apart with the medium pace in the middle.
It would be daft to put the slower players out first as that would set a slow pace for the rest of the day.
So it has to be the faster groups out first, followed by the medium pace and lastly, the wanderers.

How do you work out who fits in which group?
No idea.
Maybe a volunteer type thing which is monitored throughout the season
Maybe everyone gets a pace card which means you can play at your own speed so the green card holders go out first, (say 7.30 till 9) followed by the amber (9 till 1) and bringing up the rear the red card holders.
And lets face it, the wanderers will mostly be of a 'certain age' who can play golf at any time.


----------



## Canary_Yellow (Aug 19, 2015)

I must be one of the lucky ones, it isn't really an issue at my course.

There are a couple of bottleneck holes that might require a wait of a minute or two but nothing major.

A very slow round would be longer than 4:15 and normally even in medal conditions, about 3:45 to 4.

Course design plays a big part in slow play in my opinion. Lost balls are a big factor (especially when it's not obvious the ball will be lost). The biggest source of bottlenecks though I would say is long par 3s, I'm not a big fan of them, take for example a 220 yard hole, for the majority, or a lot at least, that's effectively a par 4 as either they lack the distance or they lack the accuracy with a club long enough to reach. However, only one group can be on that hole at a time for obvious reasons.

My club have made our long par 3 a call on hole. Once your group is on the green you have to call the next group to tee off. You can then putt out while they walk down. Works very well.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Aug 19, 2015)

I have played 4 ball medals almost every summer Saturday for 23 years at our place. I can count on my fingers the number of times it has taken shorter than 3:45 or longer than 4:15. People moan all the time and I've never spoken to anyone who is slow or even partly responsible for the perceived delays.....funny that!

The single biggest factor in the length of round at our place is the playability of the course. The course is noticeably tougher than it was 5/6 years ago due to changes in policy (less cutting - more rough) by the operator (it's a muni) and I guess the average time would now be in the "just over 4 hours" bracket rather than the "just under 4 hours" it was for 15 years before these changes. It really only takes a few groups to get in trouble, looking for balls etc maybe having to wave groups through to completely block the course for a while resulting in bottlenecks. Waving through isn't the answer on busy courses.....it's great if you are the fist group behind but overall it slows things down even further unless there are natural gaps in the field.....at our course there rarely are. Much better to simply get a jog on if you get behind....that bit isn't rocket science but so many groups still dawdle along when they are clearly out of place on the course.


----------



## MikeH (Aug 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			Hi Mike just a question,is this not going over old ground?

I have noticed the magazine has covered this on numerous occasions and I do remember yourself in the editors notes covering slow play.

We have also covered it on numerous occasions on this forum and the answers will always be the same.

Imo until some actions are taken and shots added to scores and someone actually stands up to the big players and not 14 year old kids it could be a problem that will not go away soon.
		
Click to expand...

when the problem gets solved we'll stop devoting space to the issue. Until then we feel it's a topic that needs to raised on a regular basis.

There have been several significant bits of research done in the last year that we want to highlight and the content we will producing this time is more practical with some advice for golfers, clubs and committees and will span print and digtial channels


----------



## Canary_Yellow (Aug 19, 2015)

In four ball medal conditions, I wouldn't say that's slow personally. Unless your course is short?

How long in a round of that length (just over 4 hours) is spent waiting for the group in front to clear? I'd be surprised if it was much more than 5 or 10 minutes.

Edit: this was a response to fyldewhite


----------



## nickjdavis (Aug 19, 2015)

Slab said:



_*To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, weâ€™re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about whatâ€™s slow *_and if we actually see something that doesnâ€™t fit with our own â€˜pace modelâ€™ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they â€˜broke our rhythmâ€™ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)
		
Click to expand...

This IMO is absolutely crucial.

There is a difference between slow play (caused by not being ready to play when it is your turn, leaving bags the wrong side of the green, marking card when you should be teeing off) and slow/long rounds (rounds that take a long time to play... partially caused by "slow play" but also caused by other possibly not obvious factors).

I did an analysis of pace of play at my course a few years ago.... every round I played in a group of three (comps off the whites) and 4 players (casual rounds off the yellows) I actually measured...

1) What time our group arrived at the tee
2) What time we the first of us actually teed off
3) What time we put the flag in the hole
4) by virtue of measuring (1), how long it took us to walk to the next tee

Two things immediately became obvious..

1) The nature of the layout of the course with two difficult par 3's in the first four holes that each took around 9 to 10 minutes to play, immediately caused an issue due to our 8 minute tee intervals (I already suspected this but wanted some data to back up my theory).

2) The rounds that seemed really slow were those that involved a lot of time spent waiting on tees... rounds where there was little waiting on tees were perceived to be quicker... even if the actual round time was long... so effectively being busy say searching for balls, or just hitting lots of shots due to having a mare, didn't add to the feeling of it being a slow round.... I'm sure we've all had those sub four hour rounds that felt like they dragged on and on as well as those 4.5 hour plus rounds that actually felt quite quick. ( and this could be why many groups don't feel like they are playing slowly when challenged!!)

We established that a fair time for a 3 ball in a medal to play the course was 4hrs and 12 minutes. We also understood how long players should expect to take to reach the 5th, 9th and 13th tees so we could at least set some reasonable checkpoints around the course which helped players understand if their "pace" was slow.

When we introduced 10 minute tee intervals we found that we had moved the congestion problem elsewhere on the course and we'd created a concertina effect where parts of the course were empty and others were choked. Further analysis showed me that although we had created a bigger tee intervals players were ignoring them and teeing off down the first when the group ahead was "just out of range"... the group behind would do the same and then thru group behind them also... groups further behind would then walk out to the tee and see the opening hole stretched out in front of them with nobody playing it... immediately creating the impression that they'd lost a hole!! We did eventually move back to 8 minute intervals and put in place some communication encouraging players to wait until their tee time... even if the fairway ahead of them was clear.
 This helped matters greatly.

I'm not claiming that we've solved slow play but we certainly don't have the issues every week like we did two or three summers ago when it was a real blight for a period of time. IMO though it is true to say that clubs would have a far better understanding of why it takes so long to play a round of golf if they actually took some time to measure what was happening rather than just tell players to leave their bags in the correct place etc etc.

Try Goodling Dean Knuth and seeing what he has to say about pace of play.


----------



## bladeplayer (Aug 19, 2015)

on the flip side what is everybody's hurry ? 

For most of us This is our pastime , our brief escape from work or even home life to enjoy a couple of hours away .. 

If you live an hour from work dont be leaving yourself 59 mins to get there , if you havent got the time for a round of golf including a few delays , maybe you shouldnt be playing .. 

Define slow golf /pace of play ?  in most cases a group of young chaps are going to walk faster that a group of older folk , so already there is a discrepancy in what slow golf /pace is . in reality its a natural reason , not a problem per say. young guys could be doing alot more flaffing about they just have the ability to walk faster (no offence meant)


As for Cures ..

Lower coarser rough , penalised by distance cut down times searching for balls ..

Club should leave a 10 min gap on the time sheet every 6 or 8 groups ..

Ensure people play at their allotted times Not late (how many penalties have ever been applied fro late tee times at our level) & NOT early , in our place the min the group in front have hit their 2nd shots the next group tees off , when they then get to their ball there is a group on the green group on the fairway and a group on the tee ready to go .. already gridlock ..

No silly pin placements or silly fast greens for ordinary comps , 

Clear signs around greens for direction to next tee (visitors) trolleys this way etc ..


----------



## TXL (Aug 19, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I'd like players to have to sign back in with the pro, or a club representative, at the end of a competition round. If the player/group is outside of a time accepted as reasonable for the course they get a 2 stroke penalty and a 'yellow card.' 3 yellow cards in two months sees a 2 comp ban. Harsh but it'll sort the problem.
		
Click to expand...

At one club I was a member of the committee implemented something similar to this. What they implemented was this:


A competition round time limit was set and published (should take no more that 3hrs 45 mins).
Each groups start time was noted by the starter, a committee member. It was normally the published tee time.
As each group finished their finish time was noted by a committee member
If the group took more than the allotted time, and was more than 15 mins behind the group in front, all players in the group received a 2 shot penalty unless there was a very good reason for the delay (I do not recall anyone "getting away with it").

I can only recall one group ever getting penalised. That stopped the problem and all competition rounds were played at a good pace from then on.


----------



## Radbourne2010 (Aug 19, 2015)

Played at Essendon GCC earlier this year. As at http://www.chesfielddownsgolf.co.uk they have an actual clock on every fourth tee box showing the time you should have reached in relation to the time you teed off. Although I'm generally a quick player I was glancing at the clocks all way round and making damned sure I & my playing partners didn't lag behind the pace of play.

Aside from general Etiquette in allowing faster players through if you've lost touch with those in front the biggest time waster is having to play in turn in Medals or friendly matches. Surely if you're ready just hit your ball. If it means hitting yours first then looking for your partners ball then so be it. Additionally deposit bags on the side of the hole where the next tee is located. Costs 2-3 minutes per hole, at least. Multiply by 18 & that's your half an hour saved.


MikeH said:



			Evening all

we are compiling a major pace of play piece and are keen to hear about any initiatives the club/course you play at has to improve pace of play

this one is pretty cool... a free pint if you get round in good time!
http://www.gmsgolf.co.uk/wycombe-heights-golf-centre-takes-firm-stance-on-pace-of-play/

also keen to hear about the things you feel can make a real difference when it comes to speeding up play

over to you!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			Evening all

we are compiling a major pace of play piece and are keen to hear about any initiatives the club/course you play at has to improve pace of play

this one is pretty cool... a free pint if you get round in good time!
http://www.gmsgolf.co.uk/wycombe-heights-golf-centre-takes-firm-stance-on-pace-of-play/

also keen to hear about the things you feel can make a real difference when it comes to speeding up play

over to you!
		
Click to expand...

At our club the long rough is only cut down once a year, in late Autumn. Speed of play is much faster during the Winter and early Spring, because you can usually find your ball fairly quickly if you should stray into the rough. In the Summer you will be lucky to find it at all, but most players spend 5 minutes looking for it!  Rough should be kept at a length where you can find your ball, but you are restricted to hacking the ball out with a wedge, at least at club level. Less of an issue at Major Championships where there are lots of marshalls and spectators to find errant balls.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2015)

If you are in one of the first few groups out on a comp day or likely busy day you must accept and that you have a responsibility to get round *quickly*.  And for a 4BBB that might be 3 and half hours.  And the club must monitor the speed of the very early groups and make sure they play to that pace.  For once a slow pace is set then that is pretty much it for the rest of the morning - if not all day.  Normal early starters may not like playing under such a constraint - but tough.  You play early - you must play briskly.


----------



## Jimaroid (Aug 19, 2015)

The difference between a 3h45m round and a 4h round is just 50 seconds per hole. Is it really that big a deal that we have to micro-manage golfers for the sake of those 50 seconds at each hole?

I know a couple of people that try to race around courses and it spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. Golf isn't about speed, it's about score. If you don't have the time to dedicate 4 hours for a round then maybe don't play golf?


----------



## BoadieBroadus (Aug 19, 2015)

couple of excellent posts about actually assessing courses and actually determining what holds up play and where it occurs.

if there was a band aid fix, i'd have the greenstaff regularly clear out the brush and the bushes, long grass in amongst the trees etc.

i always tended to play early in the am, with reasonably quick and ready players, albeit with a range of abilities. any time we lost was for looking for balls, reloading, looking for provisionals etc.

a long pre shot routine, or leaving the bag in the wrong place, or marking a card on the green makes 10 seconds seem like a minute. when everyone in a group is looking for a ball, it makes a minute feel like 10 seconds (because everyone's occupied).

having a small copse of trees, but with knee length rough in it can take a while to sort through, even when you are sure the ball is in there.


----------



## Piece (Aug 19, 2015)

[1] Ask OURSELVES "what can I do to be that little bit quicker?". All posts I see talk about others ("it's not me Guv"), but not one about how each of us can be quicker. We can all be quicker.

[2] Get rid of this 'play in turn' nonsense. First person ready on the tee or green plays, etc. On the fairway, rough, etc. if you're ready, you play. You'll find out very quickly who is slow in your group and they'll know very quickly too and do something about it. No-one wants to be left behind with a finger pointed at them.

[3]Remove long rough to stop delay in searching for balls.


----------



## MikeH (Aug 19, 2015)

One of the things reading this thread says to me is that the majority of forumers are on the ball when it comes to pace of play.

Those who have commented seem to all be established golfers who understand the factors that create slow play (and have sound ideas about how to deal with them) and would be unlikely to be the person stood in the middle of the fairway only just starting a long pre-shot routine when everyone has played

what about the rest of the golfing population? Whether its established golfers who are oblivious to what they are doing or newcomers to the game who don't have the knowledge most folk on here have. Both would benefit from a better understanding of what causes pace of play issues and how to be part of the solution not the problem

To think the time it takes to play a round of golf is not a key issue affecting participation is naive. The R&A survey results that have been quoted was, in our view, skewed in that the vast majority of golfers who were responded (especially the UK demographic) were ardent golfers who played an average of 74 rounds a year. My view is that type of golfer (essentially me and you guys) might get annoyed by having to stand there while some numpty marks his card on the green or is frustrated by having to look for yours or a partner's ball in long grass under trees (thereby doubly penalising you) but it isnâ€™t going to stop us playing golf.

As I said in my editors letter (July 15 issue) ask the demographic wanting to get into golf or those who play but could only dream of playing 74 rounds in year what the key reasons that are stopping them playing/playing more and the time it takes to play a round of golf will be right up there with cost

To say that because slow play doesnâ€™t affect your golf it's not an issue worthy of coverage is, in my opinion, an incredibly selfish outlook.

One of Golf Monthly's remits is to help inform and educate golfers on things like the rules of golf, etiquette and pace of play and to do what we can to help tackle issues that are affecting participation. Sorry if it bores you!


----------



## GB72 (Aug 19, 2015)

One issue, if you want to call it that, is weekend golfers. I am one of these. People who get to play only once or sometimes twice a week who want to enjoy their round, play properly, putt out etc. My group are not slow but you do get groups of people who play every day and are less worried about a proper round, pick up on a bad hole, if they lose a ball just drop another etc and they feel everyone should do the same. Maybe they should but I play a reasonable amount to play that one round a week and I want to play it properly and enjoy it. Many will see that as selfish but it is my escape from the hassles of life and I do not want to be hurried round 18 holes in 3 hours


----------



## TheCaddie (Aug 19, 2015)

1. Less rough, take it out! All grass at a manageable level that still offers a penalty.
2. Be Ready Golf - Especially on the greens. If your ball is closer, and it isn't in the other players line and they are still looking at their putt there should be no issue taking another putt - common sense 
3. Education - I completely agree with the earlier point regarding the fact taht Pros are playing for millions of dollars, and therefore they will be slower, we all would. But we are not pros, and therefore we do not need to act like them when taking our shots, especially when most courses are not up to pro standards and therefore our shots often will not require that extreme level of accuracy as it might well be a bit of a lottery if the green holds, etc.
4. Be honest about your ability -  We all want to improve and we all want to get better, but generally speaking if you are a high handicapper, you probably don't know how to read a green properly, or however hard you try, your 5i off the deck is a bit of a lottery. Practice to get better, but when you are on the course, be realistic about what you can and can't do and again.... use common sense! 
5. Unless you are in a comp, or it effects handicap, maybe don't always look for that lost ball if you think the chances or finding are slim, take the punishment. This is maybe more applicable to practice and casual rounds that mean less to you, but again, would speed things up.


----------



## Slicer30 (Aug 19, 2015)

2 for me

1. Group of 3/4 players. 1 drive goes into the bundu/long grass and all others are in play.  The guy who hit into the long grass should look for his ball, all others should play theirs first, then go and help him find his ball.  For me nothing worse than watching 4 people ignore you while they look for a ball, then you have to wait for the 3 others to play theirs as well.

2. If you hit a bad tee-shot and will be first to play their second, dont faff around wiping your clubs and putting on headcovers.  get down there and get your second away so the group can move beyond your ball.


----------



## Slime (Aug 19, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Ideas to speed up play. 

Weekly shot penalties to pros on the tours who are slow - i.e. taking longer than 3.5 hours for 18 holes as a two ball  Start with Speith, Woods etc.  The higher profile,the better.  They would speed up and the avalanche of publicity would have a global effect on the golf world right down to the lowest level. 



*Hammer home the message that when it is your turn to play your shot, you have to be ready to hit the ball.  Not be ready to start your two minutes of stupid faffing about.   
*
*It is your honour, hit the ball* - NOW!  If everyone understood this and put it into practice, slow play would simply disappear. 

This simple message should come through all media platforms with mind numbing frequency from the R&A, the manufacturers, the golfing press, the golf tours and all golfers around the world.  Spread the word. It will work....
		
Click to expand...

This is a major factor in my humble opinion, especially on tees and greens.
When the first player in a four ball tees off, the next to go should be straight onto the tee box getting ready to play, not watching where the previous player's ball is going ............................ and the player who's just played can watch his own tee shot WHILST LEAVING THE TEE BOX!
Same rules apply on the green. The next to play gets ready to putt AS SOON as it's his/her turn.
This, from a slow player too!
Oh, and if you can't score, PICK UP ffs!


*Slime*.


----------



## Slab (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			One of the things reading this thread says to me is that the majority of forumers are on the ball when it comes to pace of play.

Those who have commented seem to all be established golfers who understand the factors that create slow play (and have sound ideas about how to deal with them) and would be unlikely to be the person stood in the middle of the fairway only just starting a long pre-shot routine when everyone has played

what about the rest of the golfing population? Whether its established golfers who are oblivious to what they are doing or newcomers to the game who don't have the knowledge most folk on here have. Both would benefit from a better understanding of what causes pace of play issues and how to be part of the solution not the problem

To think the time it takes to play a round of golf is not a key issue affecting participation is naive. The R&A survey results that have been quoted was, in our view, skewed in that the vast majority of golfers who were responded (especially the UK demographic) were ardent golfers who played an average of 74 rounds a year. My view is that type of golfer (essentially me and you guys) might get annoyed by having to stand there while some numpty marks his card on the green or is frustrated by having to look for yours or a partner's ball in long grass under trees (thereby doubly penalising you) but it isnâ€™t going to stop us playing golf.

*As I said in my editors letter (July 15 issue) ask the demographic wanting to get into golf or those who play but could only dream of playing 74 rounds in year what the key reasons that are stopping them playing/playing more and the time it takes to play a round of golf will be right up there with cost*

To say that because slow play doesnâ€™t affect your golf it's not an issue worthy of coverage is, in my opinion, an incredibly selfish outlook.

One of Golf Monthly's remits is to help inform and educate golfers on things like the rules of golf, etiquette and pace of play and to do what we can to help tackle issues that are affecting participation. Sorry if it bores you!
		
Click to expand...

Just to be devils advocate though I'm wondering, even if its skewed if many of the regular golfers aren't seeing a particular slow pace issue, how does a person considering taking up golf or an infrequent golfer even begin to think there's any problem with rounds taking too long?

Q} What's stopping you taking up/playing golf 

A} They said on TV/radio/online/magazine/newspaper that it takes too long & anyway all the gear I see for sale is very expensive


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2015)

Piece said:



*[1] Ask OURSELVES "what can I do to be that little bit quicker?". All posts I see talk about others ("it's not me Guv"), but not one about how each of us can be quicker. We can all be quicker.*

[2] Get rid of this 'play in turn' nonsense. First person ready on the tee or green plays, etc. On the fairway, rough, etc. if you're ready, you play. You'll find out very quickly who is slow in your group and they'll know very quickly too and do something about it. No-one wants to be left behind with a finger pointed at them.

[3]Remove long rough to stop delay in searching for balls.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely - for each and every one of us *this* is the starting point.  We have to rid ourselves of the denial that tells us it's everyone else and nothing to do with us - when part of the problem and part of the answer will be with each of us as individuals.


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

I think the tour pros have a lot to answer for. They never seem to even think about their shot until it's their turn to play. Then the long discussion with their caddie, throwing up grass into the air to check the wind, consulting their yardage book, and endless practice swings before they commit to playing the shot, and even then they often back off. On the green seems even worse as they go through the aimpoint routine and line up their ball. There are tour pros such as Colin Montgomerie and John Daly who can play quickly and still be reasonably successful, so one wonders if all the time wasting pre-shot routines are really necessary! Main problem at club level is that all the impressionable youngsters watch tournament play on TV and ape everything the tour pros do! They are often much slower round the course than us old gits with arthritic hips etc.  Sorry but the powers that be really do have to start penalising slow play in pro tournaments!


----------



## bobmac (Aug 19, 2015)

Piece said:



			[1] Ask OURSELVES "what can I do to be that little bit quicker?". All posts I see talk about others ("it's not me Guv"), but not one about how each of us can be quicker. We can all be quicker.
		
Click to expand...

I dont agree. Why should someone have to play/walk at a speed determined by someone else?
As per my previous post, quick players out first and nip round, they're happy.
Players who want to take their time, play together in the PM, they're happy
Medium in the middle
Everyone's happy.
Live and let live


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 19, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I dont agree. Why should someone have to play/walk at a speed determined by someone else?
As per my previous post, quick players out first and nip round, they're happy.
Players who want to take their time, play together in the PM, they're happy
Medium in the middle
Everyone's happy.
Live and let live
		
Click to expand...

Sensible on the face of it but not always practical. I play at the time of day that suits - sometimes it's early to allow the afternoon for something else, sometimes it's late because I had other plans in the morning or was out late the night before.


----------



## Slab (Aug 19, 2015)

Slime said:



			This is a major factor in my humble opinion, especially on tees and greens.
When the first player in a four ball tees off, the next to go should be straight onto the tee box getting ready to play, not watching where the previous player's ball is going ............................ and the player who's just played can watch his own tee shot WHILST LEAVING THE TEE BOX!
Same rules apply on the green. The next to play gets ready to putt AS SOON as it's his/her turn.
This, from a slow player too!
Oh, and if you can't score, PICK UP ffs!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Ah c'mon now, surely we havnt reached a point where the ideal way to speed up a round is to stop looking at your FC's shot (perhaps to help locate it) & the player isn't even allowed to remain fairly static on the tee box while his ball is in motion for 9 seconds


----------



## TheCaddie (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



			I think the tour pros have a lot to answer for. They never seem to even think about their shot until it's their turn to play. Then the long discussion with their caddie, throwing up grass into the air to check the wind, consulting their yardage book, and endless practice swings before they commit to playing the shot, and even then they often back off. On the green seems even worse as they go through the aimpoint routine and line up their ball. There are tour pros such as Colin Montgomerie and John Daly who can play quickly and still be reasonably successful, so one wonders if all the time wasting pre-shot routines are really necessary! Main problem at club level is that all the impressionable youngsters watch tournament play on TV and ape everything the tour pros do! They are often much slower round the course than us old gits with arthritic hips etc.  Sorry but the powers that be really do have to start penalising slow play in pro tournaments! 

Click to expand...

Disagree with this massively. When the difference between 1st and 20th place can be two shots spread over 4 days, and about a million dollars less in prize money, professional golfers have the right to take as long as they want to get the job done. 

I just think it's an individuals responsibility to be aware of their own ability and that amateurs simply do not realise where they are at with their game. Work hard to improve on your game at the range / practice areas, or in practice rounds and then transfer that onto the course.


----------



## Junior (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			One of the things reading this thread says to me is that the majority of forumers are on the ball when it comes to pace of play.
		
Click to expand...

Intersting point Mike.....I have played in a lot of forum meets both big and small and had 5 hour rounds and 3 hour rounds. 

The key thing regarding pace of play for experienced golfers are conditions on the day and how hard the course is. I remember Hillside in a gale when the rough was up.....easily a 5 hour round and no one was really waiting on a shot, just looking for balls.  

I honestly, have no idea for a solution other than to ban plesantries whilst walking down the fairway, go with a brisk walk to your ball and if its lost, only the player can look for his own ball (harsh!),  and if you cant find it and you have not played a provisional, then your not allowed to go back - auto NR (medal) or blob the hole (stableford)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I dont agree. *Why should someone have to play/walk at a speed determined by someone else?*
As per my previous post, quick players out first and nip round, they're happy.
Players who want to take their time, play together in the PM, they're happy
Medium in the middle
Everyone's happy.
Live and let live
		
Click to expand...

The answer to *this* bit has to be because every player has responsibilities to all others.  And if only those who want to take their time would play in the PM - but they don't.  So then you have to do something about it.  And no matter how long we are each individually happy to take for a round of golf, we can still look to our own play to see if we are taking a bit longer than we need to over any aspect of it.


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

TheCaddie said:



			Disagree with this massively. When the difference between 1st and 20th place can be two shots spread over 4 days, and about a million dollars less in prize money, professional golfers have the right to take as long as they want to get the job done. 

I just think it's an individuals responsibility to be aware of their own ability and that amateurs simply do not realise where they are at with their game. Work hard to improve on your game at the range / practice areas, or in practice rounds and then transfer that onto the course.
		
Click to expand...

And I disagree with you massively!  Tour pros still hit bad shots, despite all the elaborate pre-shot routines. One Major Champion when asked what his secret was replied "I miss them quickly", meaning he didn't put too much pressure on himself. Major Championships are the showcase for golf, and if they seem massively slow and boring, they are not a good advert for the sport.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



			And I disagree with you massively!  Tour pros still hit bad shots, despite all the elaborate pre-shot routines. One Major Champion when asked what his secret was replied "I miss them quickly", meaning he didn't put too much pressure on himself. Major Championships are the showcase for golf, and if they seem massively slow and boring, they are not a good advert for the sport.
		
Click to expand...

The pros speed of play may not be a great advert for the game - but we are not talking about the pro game.  We are talking about us mortals - there is nothing about the pro game that means I have to emulate their actions and pace of play.  For me it's all about self-awareness and consideration for other golfers (and maybe we are not so good at that these days).  Matthew 7:3


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 19, 2015)

TheCaddie said:



			Disagree with this massively. When the difference between 1st and 20th place can be two shots spread over 4 days, and about a million dollars less in prize money, professional golfers have the right to take as long as they want to get the job done. 

I just think it's an individuals responsibility to be aware of their own ability and that amateurs simply do not realise where they are at with their game. Work hard to improve on your game at the range / practice areas, or in practice rounds and then transfer that onto the course.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree with this massively if pros are left to take as long as it takes the game of golf on the tv would die people would switch off through boredom.

They are playing for millions so perhaps they could lower the prize money so it doesn't mean so much.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 19, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The answer to *this* bit has to be because every player has responsibilities to all others.  And if only those who want to take their time would play in the PM - but they don't.  *So then you have to do something about it.*  And no matter how long we are each individually happy to take for a round of golf, we can still look to our own play to see if we are taking a bit longer than we need to over any aspect of it.
		
Click to expand...

So, what you are saying is you/we have to find a way of forcing slow players to play quicker?





			every player has responsibilities to all others.
		
Click to expand...

Surely that has to work both ways

If you put slow and fast players together, you are going to get someone unhappy.

Would you sit on the outside lane of the M1 at 8am doing 55mph?
No, of course not.
Would you force a slower driver to drive faster in the middle lane to keep you happy?
I would hope not


----------



## Piece (Aug 19, 2015)

bobmac said:



			So, what you are saying is you/we have to find a way of forcing slow players to play quicker?




Surely that has to work both ways

If you put slow and fast players together, you are going to get someone unhappy.

Would you sit on the outside lane of the M1 at 8am doing 55mph?
No, of course not.
Would you force a slower driver to drive faster in the middle lane to keep you happy?
I would hope not
		
Click to expand...

If you can't force/encourage/educate slow players to play quicker, then slow play will never be solved.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 19, 2015)

Truth is we all do some aspects of the game faster than others and while we each might be reasonably quicker overall, groups of players with different characteristics can find their pace of play slowed down drastically.

For example, I don't tend to take practise swings for full shots and am generally ready to play when it's my turn so don't faff around much. I also walk quite briskly between shots and don't have to spend too much time looking for (my) ball in knee high rough. But I like to take my time on the green, I want to see my putt from in front, behind and side-on. I'm not great at reading greens so made a conscious decision to spend longer over putts to try and get a better read.

Pair me up with two similar players and pace is fast, no problem, but if I'm out with someone who doddles between shots but is quick on the greens and you get the worst of both worlds.


----------



## TheCaddie (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



			And I disagree with you massively!  Tour pros still hit bad shots, despite all the elaborate pre-shot routines. One Major Champion when asked what his secret was replied "I miss them quickly", meaning he didn't put too much pressure on himself. Major Championships are the showcase for golf, and if they seem massively slow and boring, they are not a good advert for the sport.
		
Click to expand...

So if you were playing in a tournament for your livelihood, for millions of pounds, you're telling me you'd speed up your pace of play for the image of the game? Don't make me laugh!

But swingsitlikehogan has nailed it.... We aren't talking about the pro game, we are talking about our own and therefore, let's not be looking at the pros to speed up when to be quite honest amateurs need to realise it's a completely different situation for them.


----------



## MikeH (Aug 19, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The answer to *this* bit has to be because every player has responsibilities to all others.  And if only those who want to take their time would play in the PM - but they don't.  So then you have to do something about it.  And no matter how long we are each individually happy to take for a round of golf, we can still look to our own play to see if we are taking a bit longer than we need to over any aspect of it.
		
Click to expand...

:thup:


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The pros speed of play may not be a great advert for the game - but we are not talking about the pro game.  We are talking about us mortals - there is nothing about the pro game that means I have to emulate their actions and pace of play.  For me it's all about self-awareness and consideration for other golfers (and maybe we are not so good at that these days).  Matthew 7:3 

Click to expand...

The pace of play in pro tournaments DOES have an influence on the pace of play at club level though, because players, particularly younger ones, do tend to copy what they see on TV!


----------



## bluewolf (Aug 19, 2015)

My tuppence, for what it's worth...

Having moved from one club because of the 5 hour comp rounds, to a club with max 4 hour comp rounds.. The 2 biggest factors I found were course design and the amount of players per group.. Limit rounds to 3 balls and try to ensure that the "snarl up point" is identified at your course, and actions are taken to remedy them..


----------



## Piece (Aug 19, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The answer to *this* bit has to be because every player has responsibilities to all others.  And if only those who want to take their time would play in the PM - but they don't.  So then you have to do something about it.  And no matter how long we are each individually happy to take for a round of golf, we can still look to our own play to see if we are taking a bit longer than we need to over any aspect of it.
		
Click to expand...

I took responsibility a few years ago. I was seen as the slow player in the group. I didn't think I was, but anyway, I asked where they thought I was being slow on the understanding that I gave my opinion in reverse (even though they thought they were fast ). I quickened up by being ready, less pre-shot faffing, buying a GPS watch to take out yardage uncertainty, improved by knowledge on my club yardages so I knew exactly what to hit, etc. 

Lots of people 'think' they are quick players, when in fact, they're not.

We certainly all play at different paces, but we can all improve to make the overall pace improve even more. There surely can't be any debate over that?


----------



## Slab (Aug 19, 2015)

Starting to get the feeling thereâ€™s two (at least) sides to this and whoever blinks first will lose and have to carry their shame foreverrrrrrrrrrr



On one hand thereâ€™s clubs who want to maximise revenue (capacity/membership) on 1st rate, challenging courses with the minimum of outlay on maintenance & management etc  

On the other side thereâ€™s players who want to enjoy affordable golf on 1st rate, challenging courses played at a reasonable pace with the minimum of delays & hassling 


Iâ€™m not so sure that both those aims are aligned to the same â€˜pace of playâ€™ and to match will mean each admitting they have a problem and the players _*and *_the course will need to speed up together



I guess another way of saying it is that as players itâ€™s easy to blame the course/club for causing slow play and vice versa. 

Playing faster is the most cost effective way to improve overall pace but that just means the club will shorten tee times further to get more revenue and the problem comes back. Whereas many of the club/course changes will cost money but players donâ€™t want to see fees going up faster than they need to


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			One of the things reading this thread says to me is that the majority of forumers are on the ball when it comes to pace of play.

Those who have commented seem to all be established golfers who understand the factors that create slow play (and have sound ideas about how to deal with them) and would be unlikely to be the person stood in the middle of the fairway only just starting a long pre-shot routine when everyone has played

what about the rest of the golfing population? Whether its established golfers who are oblivious to what they are doing or newcomers to the game who don't have the knowledge most folk on here have. Both would benefit from a better understanding of what causes pace of play issues and how to be part of the solution not the problem

To think the time it takes to play a round of golf is not a key issue affecting participation is naive. The R&A survey results that have been quoted was, in our view, skewed in that the vast majority of golfers who were responded (especially the UK demographic) were ardent golfers who played an average of 74 rounds a year. My view is that type of golfer (essentially me and you guys) might get annoyed by having to stand there while some numpty marks his card on the green or is frustrated by having to look for yours or a partner's ball in long grass under trees (thereby doubly penalising you) but it isnâ€™t going to stop us playing golf.

As I said in my editors letter (July 15 issue) ask the demographic wanting to get into golf or those who play but could only dream of playing 74 rounds in year what the key reasons that are stopping them playing/playing more and the time it takes to play a round of golf will be right up there with cost

To say that because slow play doesnâ€™t affect your golf it's not an issue worthy of coverage is, in my opinion, an incredibly selfish outlook.

One of Golf Monthly's remits is to help inform and educate golfers on things like the rules of golf, etiquette and pace of play and to do what we can to help tackle issues that are affecting participation. Sorry if it bores you!
		
Click to expand...

I must of missed the post where someone said its boring.

The only 2 times I have really come up against really really slow play 4/1/2 to 5 hours rounds were do to adverse weather conditions and a seriously hard golf course and another on the course where the design caused a serious backlog.

This is such a difficult subject because of every body different reason to play golf.

Some see it as a pastime and don't like to be rushed.
Some take it so serious they think they are playing for millions.

Course design is so key to all major issues.

Tees and Greens too close together
Blind shots waiting for a bell to be rung[sometimes it is sometimes it isn't.
Rough too penal.


In fact there are too many to write about.

Good luck on GM quest for faster play but imo it will never happen.

Mixed numbered groups are a killer there is nothing worse than walking on a course as a 2 ball when there are 2 fourballs ahead its demoralising before you start,golf clubs have to take notice.

I sometimes play in a 4 ball on a Wednesday club night and we all seem to be different paced.
Many times I have said we need to keep up with the group in front or let the group behind through only to be met with they cant go anywhere if we let them through.
It makes my blood boil listening to the crap that comes out for excuses.
This will never change because they do what they want and I don't think anything will change that.
Having a course marshall does help imo.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			To think the time it takes to play a round of golf is not a key issue affecting participation is naive. The R&A survey results that have been quoted was, in our view, skewed in that the vast majority of golfers who were responded (especially the UK demographic) were ardent golfers who played an average of 74 rounds a year. My view is that type of golfer (essentially me and you guys) might get annoyed by having to stand there while some numpty marks his card on the green or is frustrated by having to look for yours or a partner's ball in long grass under trees (thereby doubly penalising you) but it isnâ€™t going to stop us playing golf.

As I said in my editors letter (July 15 issue) ask the demographic wanting to get into golf or those who play but could only dream of playing 74 rounds in year what the key reasons that are stopping them playing/playing more and the time it takes to play a round of golf will be right up there with cost!
		
Click to expand...

I would disagree here Mike, I don't think the pace of play is a serious issue to anyone thinking of taking up the sport. The two paragraphs above are comparing apples and oranges. The length of time it takes to play a round of golf in the context of someone taking up the sport is entirely different to an established players views. The latter is obviously a slow play issue. The former is just a general comment on what puts people off golf......the issue here surely is that it's half a day no matter how you package it and essentially pace of play is not relevant to that particular argument. It's about young people with families etc not wanting to sacrifice half their Saturdays and Sundays to a pastime which regardless of the pace of play takes either a long time or a slightly longer time!


----------



## bluewolf (Aug 19, 2015)

It might also be worth finding out what constitutes a "slow round". I'm relatively happy to accept that a competitive round will take up to 4 hours. Anything over that feels slow. 

I can knock it round 18 in 2 1/2 hours on my own. Anything longer feels slow. I've played 3 hour rounds that felt slow because of long waits on certain tees. I've played 5 hour rounds that didn't feel slow because of conditions and course design. 

The problem is far more complex than simply how long a round takes.


----------



## Slab (Aug 19, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			I would disagree here Mike, I don't think the pace of play is a serious issue to anyone thinking of taking up the sport. The two paragraphs above are comparing apples and oranges. The length of time it takes to play a round of golf in the context of someone taking up the sport is entirely different to an established players views. The latter is obviously a slow play issue. The former is just a general comment on what puts people off golf......the issue here surely is that it's half a day no matter how you package it and essentially pace of play is not relevant to that particular argument. It's about young people with families etc not wanting to sacrifice half their Saturdays and Sundays to a pastime which regardless of the pace of play takes either a long time or a slightly longer time!
		
Click to expand...

There's truth in that. I mentioned this on a different thread but for various (but not extraordinary) reasons my time taken to play golf this Saturday will be around 7 hours 


So arrival about 45 mins before tee off
Coffee etc including meet & greet with other players
Warm up on range 
Practice putting, chipping
Head to tee
Maybe 4hr:15 for the round (its a long course) 
Hand score in and shower/change
Bite to eat, couple of drinks (don't want to be a car park golfer do we)
Few sleeves of balls dished out as prizes
Leave to head home  

That's about 7 hours from the time arriving at the club to leaving the club, so that's the time someone thinking about taking up golf and playing beside me this weekend will need to consider as 'how long does it take to play a round of golf'... + travel


----------



## Slime (Aug 19, 2015)

Slab said:



			Ah c'mon now, surely we havnt reached a point where the ideal way to speed up a round is to stop looking at your FC's shot (perhaps to help locate it) & the player isn't even allowed to remain fairly static on the tee box while his ball is in motion for 9 seconds
		
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's the answer, but surely, every little helps.
I honestly don't believe there is an answer that eveyone would be happy with.
*
Slime*.


----------



## TheCaddie (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



			The pace of play in pro tournaments DOES have an influence on the pace of play at club level though, because players, particularly younger ones, do tend to copy what they see on TV!  

Click to expand...

Hence why lots of people are raising the point of education.


----------



## Slab (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



			The pace of play in pro tournaments DOES have an influence on the pace of play at club level though, because players, particularly younger ones, do tend to copy what they see on TV!  

Click to expand...

I really don't see this out on the course

How young are these highly impressionable players that actually copy what they see on tv & how many are at your club


Do they do media interviews at the clubhouse afterwards too 


Edit: I do see players who are clearly going through a PSR for a few seconds that a teaching pro has taught them to do but you can tell its not copying any TV pro


----------



## GB72 (Aug 19, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			I would disagree here Mike, I don't think the pace of play is a serious issue to anyone thinking of taking up the sport. The two paragraphs above are comparing apples and oranges. The length of time it takes to play a round of golf in the context of someone taking up the sport is entirely different to an established players views. The latter is obviously a slow play issue. The former is just a general comment on what puts people off golf......the issue here surely is that it's half a day no matter how you package it and essentially pace of play is not relevant to that particular argument. It's about young people with families etc not wanting to sacrifice half their Saturdays and Sundays to a pastime which regardless of the pace of play takes either a long time or a slightly longer time!
		
Click to expand...

I think that this is a really good point. For someone looking to take up the game it probably makes no difference at all whether the rounds are taking 3 hours or 5 hours (and they probably do not know this in any event) it is the game of golf in general that takes too long. More 9 hole comps or more options to play 9 holes may attract a few more but would put off the established member who wants proper 18 hole competitions. 

Thinking about it, I actually think it is time spent on the green that holds me up more than most other aspects. I have been behind plenty of of groups that are like lightening from tee to green but then are slow as anything on the green as every putt is checked from every angle, every missed putt is marked irrespective of proximity to the hole and some people stand over a putt for so long you could think that they had fallen asleep. One simple rule may be that any putt within a foot of the hole has to be finished off rather than marked, oh and remove all markings from golf balls to stop people taking an age moving the line a milimeter or 2 before putting.


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

GB72 said:



			I think that this is a really good point. For someone looking to take up the game it probably makes no difference at all whether the rounds are taking 3 hours or 5 hours (and they probably do not know this in any event) it is the game of golf in general that takes too long. More 9 hole comps or more options to play 9 holes may attract a few more but would put off the established member who wants proper 18 hole competitions. 

Thinking about it, I actually think it is time spent on the green that holds me up more than most other aspects. I have been behind plenty of of groups that are like lightening from tee to green but then are slow as anything on the green as every putt is checked from every angle, every missed putt is marked irrespective of proximity to the hole and some people stand over a putt for so long you could think that they had fallen asleep. One simple rule may be that any putt within a foot of the hole has to be finished off rather than marked, oh and remove all markings from golf balls to stop people taking an age moving the line a milimeter or 2 before putting.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that watching a four ball group putting out on a green ahead can be rather like watching paint dry!  That was one of my reasons for suggesting a bigger hole (sorry for hijacking another thread on this subject!).


----------



## wonga (Aug 19, 2015)

We found that by putting players on the clock the time taken to complete a round went down on average from 5 hours to just over 4 hours for a 4 ball in both senior medal & Stableford comps.


----------



## TheCaddie (Aug 19, 2015)

GB72 said:



			I think that this is a really good point. For someone looking to take up the game it probably makes no difference at all whether the rounds are taking 3 hours or 5 hours (and they probably do not know this in any event) it is the game of golf in general that takes too long. More 9 hole comps or more options to play 9 holes may attract a few more but would put off the established member who wants proper 18 hole competitions. 

Thinking about it, I actually think it is time spent on the green that holds me up more than most other aspects. I have been behind plenty of of groups that are like lightening from tee to green but then are slow as anything on the green as every putt is checked from every angle, every missed putt is marked irrespective of proximity to the hole and some people stand over a putt for so long you could think that they had fallen asleep. One simple rule may be that any putt within a foot of the hole has to be finished off rather than marked, oh and remove all markings from golf balls to stop people taking an age moving the line a milimeter or 2 before putting.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. The Greens are where I see the longest delays as well. People who believe they can read a green and actually can't, or think the greens they are on require an extremely complicated read, when again, they don't.


----------



## Sybez (Aug 19, 2015)

Streamline the rules and get rid of all the stupid ones from the dark ages. Simples!

I do like the US Junior idea though - first to finish putting heads off to next tee whilst others putt out....

Personally it can take as long as it has to depending on course, conditions and ball hunting. As long as any groups are not standing around waiting between shots then is fine, but is hard to keep to as we all walk differently!


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

Sybez said:



			Streamline the rules and get rid of all the stupid ones from the dark ages. Simples!

I do like the US Junior idea though - first to finish putting heads off to next tee whilst others putt out....

Personally it can take as long as it has to depending on course, conditions and ball hunting. As long as any groups are not standing around waiting between shots then is fine, but is hard to keep to as we all walk differently!
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was considered poor etiquette to leave the green while others are still putting out!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 19, 2015)

Reading all the posts it seems slow play can be tackled at every part of the game, from who you play with and at what time in what type of game (comp or friendly) and on which day through to putting out and how much time you've alloted yourself (quick 18 or no time constraint).
Taking all this in, to me if I was looking to take up the game the perception would be a game that is slow to play and you'd be under pressure to speed up from the moment you arrive on a course.
I wish I had the answer but in reality there won't be a one size fits all answer.
Maybe just maybe as an alternative clubs could look at running 9 hole comps or whatever number your course layout allows, it's worked in cricket with 20/20 so maybe a shorter Golf comp may entice people to try. These could be run on certain days when maybe a course is less busy.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 19, 2015)

Sybez said:



			first to finish putting heads off to next tee whilst others putt out....
		
Click to expand...

Don't agree. The first to putt out gets the flag


----------



## MikeH (Aug 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			I must of missed the post where someone said its boring.
		
Click to expand...

actually Pokerjoke it was the first line of your reply to my inital post that was the main prompt for me to make the 'boring' observation

"Hi Mike just a question,is this not going over old ground?"

I took several other comments about the topic having been covered numerous times - whether it be as a discussion here or as a feature in a mag/online etc - to say the same thing

lost in transaltion perhaps?

the volume and range of replies to this thread suggest its still a topic worth covering especailly when a lot of the content we will produce is positive (ie not looking to moan about slow play) and we will use video content that will provide a reference point for best practice that can be shared by golfers, clubs. committes etc

in terms of us solving slow play... Im not daft enough to think our content will suddenly be the cure but I feel its our resposnibility to encourage a better pace of play so we'll give it damn good go

For the avoidance of doubt good pace of play (the concpet we are looking to promote) is not about saying everyone should be flying round in under 3hrs but merely taking the spirit of the rules of golf which asks players to play without undue delay and that being aware what you as an individual do can have an impact on your group and indeed the whole field


----------



## Slicer30 (Aug 19, 2015)

Here's an idea - maybe one for Jezz and Fergus when out on the course.

How to find a ball which you have hit into the long stuff - ie " I have a line on that one" either a small bush or different coloured tree.  

quite often I see people heading to find their ball and they are 20-30 yds from the line I have of it, when I continue on that line I usually walk straight to it ( usually)


----------



## Slab (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			actually Pokerjoke it was the first line of your reply to my inital post that was the main prompt for me to make the 'boring' observation

"Hi Mike just a question,is this not going over old ground?"

I took several other comments about the topic having been covered numerous times - whether it be as a discussion here or as a feature in a mag/online etc - to say the same thing

lost in transaltion perhaps?

the volume and range of replies to this thread suggest its still a topic worth covering especailly when a lot of the content we will produce is positive (ie not looking to moan about slow play) and we will use video content that will provide a reference point for best practice that can be shared by golfers, clubs. committes etc

in terms of us solving slow play... Im not daft enough to think our content will suddenly be the cure but I feel its our resposnibility to encourage a better pace of play so we'll give it damn good go

For the avoidance of doubt good pace of play (the concpet we are looking to promote) is not about saying everyone should be flying round in under 3hrs but merely taking the spirit of the rules of golf which asks players to play without undue delay and that being aware what you as an individual do can have an impact on your group and indeed the whole field
		
Click to expand...

Cant fault your motivation or commitment

Is there any scope to coordinate your drive with the other UK golf publications so that not only is exactly the same message going out but at the same time and across various media channels both online and in print. Could be like a real explosion of focus and attention


----------



## duncan mackie (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			Good pace of play is not about saying everyone should be flying round in under 3hrs but merely taking the spirit of the rules of golf which asks players to play without undue delay and that being aware what you as an individual do can have an impact on your group and indeed the whole field
		
Click to expand...

Perfect :thup:

(Maybe remove the merely)


----------



## Smiffy (Aug 19, 2015)

Sybez said:



			first to finish putting heads off to next tee whilst others putt out....
		
Click to expand...

Sorry mate. We're talking about speeding up play, not condoning "bad manners" or "etiquette".....and that to me is the height of bad manners.
I might have blobbed the hole, ended up walking it and be giving myself a right telling off as I stand by my bag by the side of the green.
But 9 times out of 10 I will still go and tend the flag for the guys who are still playing the hole.
I'd feel as guilty as sin if I didn't


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			actually Pokerjoke it was the first line of your reply to my inital post that was the main prompt for me to make the 'boring' observation

"Hi Mike just a question,is this not going over old ground?"

I took several other comments about the topic having been covered numerous times - whether it be as a discussion here or as a feature in a mag/online etc - to say the same thing

lost in transaltion perhaps?

the volume and range of replies to this thread suggest its still a topic worth covering especailly when a lot of the content we will produce is positive (ie not looking to moan about slow play) and we will use video content that will provide a reference point for best practice that can be shared by golfers, clubs. committes etc

in terms of us solving slow play... Im not daft enough to think our content will suddenly be the cure but I feel its our resposnibility to encourage a better pace of play so we'll give it damn good go

For the avoidance of doubt good pace of play (the concpet we are looking to promote) is not about saying everyone should be flying round in under 3hrs but merely taking the spirit of the rules of golf which asks players to play without undue delay and that being aware what you as an individual do can have an impact on your group and indeed the whole field
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was Mike that's why I mentioned it however that was the furthest thought from my mind.

Its the fact that its been done so many times and nothing has changed.

I hope GM can produce something and help speed up play but as I said I cant see it happening.

In the pro game it wont happen either until a high profile players is docked shots.

As you also mention in your last paragraph making people aware of wrong doings will help but imo very little.

Imo course design is a much bigger contributor to slow play,having teeing areas right next to greens or even in the firing line like East Devons 8th.
This hole in their "open" has 3 or 4 groups waiting at a time nearing 20 minutes,and im sure there are hundreds more.

Or as you have rightly pointed out in the past knee high rough which forces all 4 players to look for a probable lost ball.

To be honest im really looking forward to the magazine that covers this topic then I can show it to my frustratingly slow playing partners.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



*I agree that watching a four ball group putting out on a green ahead can be rather like watching paint dry! * That was one of my reasons for suggesting a bigger hole (sorry for hijacking another thread on this subject!).
		
Click to expand...

*This* I agree with wholeheartedly - bigger hole - sorry nope.  Sort the faffing about - no need for bigger hole.

For instance - I don't recall players drawing alignment lines on their ball in the past.  These days some guys I play with spend an eternity getting their ball perfect aligned for the putt.  And any time they change their mind over the line - back they go marking ball,  picking it, replacing it, tweaking it this way and that - to be just so!  A real pain in the derriere.


----------



## MikeH (Aug 19, 2015)

Slicer30 said:



			Here's an idea - maybe one for Jezz and Fergus when out on the course.

How to find a ball which you have hit into the long stuff - ie " I have a line on that one" either a small bush or different coloured tree.  

quite often I see people heading to find their ball and they are 20-30 yds from the line I have of it, when I continue on that line I usually walk straight to it ( usually)
		
Click to expand...

bit of telepathy!
Jezza wrote this piece earlier this week on ball finding tips
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/featu...earch-for-a-lost-golf-ball-6-essentials-79715


----------



## MikeH (Aug 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			To be honest im really looking forward to the magazine that covers this topic then I can show it to my frustratingly slow playing partners.
		
Click to expand...

We are hoping the content will be shared by golfers, clubs and committees whether its sending out pdfs of the piece, photocopies of it up on notice boards, videos on the club site etc.

ps noted on the lost in translation thing!


----------



## MikeH (Aug 19, 2015)

Slab said:



			Cant fault your motivation or commitment
Is there any scope to coordinate your drive with the other UK golf publications so that not only is exactly the same message going out but at the same time and across various media channels both online and in print. Could be like a real explosion of focus and attention
		
Click to expand...

logistically this wouldnt work when it comes to print - many reasons but deadlines, different page specs, design software, photography rights, rivalry etc etc) but all media will be free to share our digtial content


----------



## Smiffy (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			bit of telepathy!
Jezza wrote this piece earlier this week on ball finding tips
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/featu...earch-for-a-lost-golf-ball-6-essentials-79715

Click to expand...

The starter at Woking gave me a good tip one day.
If your heading for the trees, get a line on it from the top of them.


----------



## guest100718 (Aug 19, 2015)

On course marshals hurrying along the slow golfers and making sure they let the faster groups through is the only thing that will really work


----------



## njrose51 (Aug 19, 2015)

Quite simply, I don't think you will ever really stop slow play, no matter what rules are brought in. Not all clubs can afford marshalls. You will always get people bending the rules or believing they are above them. A stray shot no matter how good you are will cause a delay. Short grass or long grass â€“ you still have to find it! Everybody gets old and who are we to tell those of the older generation to walk quicker? And, I suspect, we probably all guilty of thinking we can reach a green and waiting for it to clear before ending up 30 yards short! Playing people through whilst good etiquette still holds play up. And hey, we all started out at sometime so we cant blame the beginners/hackers of the game. Yes, you can tell people how to speed up â€“ not marking cards on the greens, being ready to play next shot, leaving bags in right place etc, but unless you have a referee with every game, who is going to enforce it? And do the club really want to enforce these types of rules and issue fines or ban players? Probably not as all that will do is create a bad reputation for it being a strict club and potentially drive people, societies etc away. Are clubs going to leave longer gaps between tee-times? Unlikely as that potentially lowers the number of people playing on a daily basis. Will they limit the amount of members who can play in tournaments? Possibly, but what will that do to those who canâ€™t play â€“ theyâ€™ll get pi**d off and possibly leave. 

So, dear fellow Forum members, no matter what you, we, or our clubs or the Professionals do, you will always have slow play. Perhaps a few times a year, everything will work well, players will act accordingly, tee shots go where we aim them, we'll have less putts and a quick round will be had, but Iâ€™m afraid to say that slow play is here to stay.


----------



## Crawfy (Aug 19, 2015)

In bounce games, play 'ready' golf.
Be realistic about your shot distances and play accordingly
Place you bag on correct side of green
Think about your iron selection when walking up to ball, not when you get there
Not every putt needs marked and replaced
Embrace 3 ball format rather than insisting on 4ball
Half the number of pre-shot practice swings you take
Have a course steward who will actively slow play behaviour

This could be a long list, but that's just off the top of my head


----------



## alexbrownmp (Aug 19, 2015)

MikeH said:



			actually Pokerjoke it was the first line of your reply to my inital post that was the main prompt for me to make the 'boring' observation

"Hi Mike just a question,is this not going over old ground?"

I took several other comments about the topic having been covered numerous times - whether it be as a discussion here or as a feature in a mag/online etc - to say the same thing

lost in transaltion perhaps?

the volume and range of replies to this thread suggest its still a topic worth covering especailly when a lot of the content we will produce is positive (ie not looking to moan about slow play) and we will use video content that will provide a reference point for best practice that can be shared by golfers, clubs. committes etc

in terms of us solving slow play... Im not daft enough to think our content will suddenly be the cure but I feel its our resposnibility to encourage a better pace of play so we'll give it damn good go

For the avoidance of doubt good pace of play (the concpet we are looking to promote) is not about saying everyone should be flying round in under 3hrs but merely taking the spirit of the rules of golf which asks players to play without undue delay and that being aware what you as an individual do can have an impact on your group and indeed the whole field
		
Click to expand...

foreget all the long repleis, schemees and penaltyys.

Its basic comman sence.

if you lose your place behind the group in front and the group behind are immediately behind, then MOVE OVER! let them thru and everyone can relax and enjoy their round.


----------



## matt611 (Aug 19, 2015)

I haven't read all 10 pages so not sure if already mentioned but i think leaving the flag in could save a little time when combined with ready golf.  There are times when you are watching a group that is infront of you when nothing is happening because players do not want to play out of turn and someone has to stand at the flag waiting to remove it when they could be lining their own putt up.

Other thoughts:
thinner rough
less pre shot routine rubbish
less faffing around and more awareness of other groups around you on the course
better example set by pros on all of the above points


----------



## Hacker Khan (Aug 19, 2015)

Slightly tongue in cheek but ban all mind coaches, especially those that tell you that you have to be in the right state of mind before you hit your shot (and yes I know I got picked for the New Golf Thinking day, which has actually improved my game, but has made me a bit slower)  

This is probably a much bigger issue on the mens and womens pro tours, but all these pre-shot routines take time when you add them up. You then get a gust of wind or someone coughs in the crowd and they have to start it all again so they are 'in the zone' before they can hit it. I'm not saying just walk up there and hit it immediately.  But as we know golfers are mostly a desperate bunch of people that will try anything if they think it will improve their score.  And the prevalence of mind coaches telling all and sundry to do all the pre-shot routines isn't helping.


----------



## Oddsocks (Aug 19, 2015)

Pace of play:

All golfers new and old should be given a 9 hole etiquette lesson and general common sense lesson, this should cover where to leave you bag, when to play shots etc and educate them, if you really wanted to it could be A 2 part test which covers basics rules. It should be chargeable Â£45 1 part Â£75 2 parts.

The potential for pros to meet prospective new students, the course to cater for potential new pay and play customers or even members.  This course should be mandatory as is a driving lesson, gym induction and so on


----------



## drdel (Aug 19, 2015)

There are a number of issues to address if you really want to get a logic and pragmatic answer to the 'pace of play'

Firstly, there is no definition of 'slow' or 'fast' when applied to Golf. It's an entirely subject term that ignores too many variables beyond the control of an individual golfer, so 4 hours might be  fair clip for some middle-aged, 20 handicappers or slow for two 23 years olds playing off mid-teens

1. You cannot expect a 75 years old golfer to be as fast as an 21 year old - because of shot distance, general fitness etc.etc.

2. Golf courses vary widely in distance, terrain and design. 'Pin' position on the day.

3. Weather will influence shot distance, visibility, etc. etc.

4. A golfer's reason for playing; practise round, friendly and social game, club competition etc. etc.

5. Time of day and sun direction (rare here in UK but you get the point). Summer v winter.

6. Number of players and mix of abilities, knowledge of rules and game behaviour.

Even if you conducted a pseudo-scientific survey of times and employed a multi-variate analysis for 1,000 or more rounds of golf there would be too many confounding factors to deduce a causal link that could be transferred into the real world.

The facts are that small variations by individuals on the wide range of holes can increase of decrease the time for say a par 4 hole from say 12 minutes to 20 minutes, in the worst case adding perhaps 45 minutes.

Just as if two different drivers drove 200 miles there would be no 'standard' nationwide, journey time.


----------



## 3565 (Aug 19, 2015)

Well, you all should be thankful you play in the UK, as a rival publication said that UK golfers are the fastest in Europe if not the world! And we're still going on how we can improve the time to play, maybe if you practised more and improved your direction and accuracy you'd take less shots which in turn will speed play up,  Maybe if some of the ridiculous rules were changed to speed up play, ie 5 min to search, be able to play the provisional you hit to save time but when your original ball is found, the only option to you is to go back to the last place you've played, or MAYBE a round takes as long as it does and what others do is out of your control. 

This pressure to speed up play COULD eventually have a detriment to the course, I've not got time to replace divots, rake bunkers, repair pitch marks as I need to get/be ready for my next shot or our group will get a 2 shot penalty if we're 5 min over our allotted time. 

Devils advocate n all.....


----------



## stevelev (Aug 19, 2015)

Slab said:



			It always seems to be one of the biggest talking points online and in mags but that R&A survey didnâ€™t find it was a deal breaker for players they surveyed and the trouble is lots of us think we know how to â€˜cureâ€™ slow play but the reality is most of it would have a superficial impact at best 

Most of the â€˜curesâ€™ can be picked apart and argued from both sides, weâ€™ve already had one in â€˜let a single through/donâ€™t let a single throughâ€™ and thatâ€™s just in the first few posts

Just to take a couple more examples. Education, how many golfers actually donâ€™t know how to speed up their play if they had to? Yet poor education is cited all the time as a major cause. Just how many uneducated golfers are taking part in your clubs monthly medals that already last 4 Â½ + hours! Itâ€™s far more likely itâ€™s a lack of motivation or desire to speed up  

Bags/trolleys on wrong side, itâ€™s a tiny number of times Iâ€™ve ever seen this happen. Leaving a bag at point of entry to the green is not the wrong side_ in terms of overall pace of a round_. To be the wrong side of a green _to impact pace_ it would need to be equidistant from both point of entry and point of exit, who does this! There is absolutely a placebo effect for the following group to see bags left at point of exit instead of point of entry but it has zero impact on the elapsed time 

Proâ€™s on TV set bad example, nah not buying it. Maybe if we were all impressionable pre pubescent teens would some TV footage of a pro change you to emulate them regarding pace but (sadly) the courses arenâ€™t full of kids, its mature adults weâ€™re talking about here. Really when was the last time a TV show inspired a meaningful change in your behaviour?

We have some pretty random times allocated for how long a round should take and some folks seem to have adopted these as gospel and any variance is deemed slow when the reality is that dozens of things will slow the pace for the day from rain to pin positions, tee gaps to rough length, group sizes to game format etc and when they do kick in and inevitably slow things down its the player who marked his card beside the green that will be blamed for adding 40 minutes to your game & roundly beaten with a wedge

Itâ€™s like the driving distance claims, â€˜we once went round in idyllic conditions as a 4-ball in 3:20 so anything over say 3:30 is slowâ€™ 
Jeez, even changing 2 or 3 pin positions could create a new chokepoint on the course that didnâ€™t exist the day before and add 10 minutes to a round       

To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, weâ€™re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about whatâ€™s slow and if we actually see something that doesnâ€™t fit with our own â€˜pace modelâ€™ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they â€˜broke our rhythmâ€™ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)

I think there are lots of good ideas and initiatives out there that individual clubs adopt and implement but it lacks a cohesive, coordinated approach from the governing bodies to drive a meaningful change across the game
		
Click to expand...

So do you actually have any suggestion to speed up play or just a sat on the fence view.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 19, 2015)

Some very interesting and erudite responses. It is an issue whether you choose to accept it or not. Normally in competition (medals) we can get a three ball round in around four hours (4:15 for the club championship and you could notice the difference). However this doesn't mean we couldn't be better without compromising enjoyment, competitiveness and making it feel like an olympic walk between shots. 

New players to the game need a solid introduction to the game including a basic guide to the rules and etiquette and this covers pace of play. The R&A and publications seem to have been quite proactive regarding rules over the years but they and clubs seem to be reticent to tackle the issue of etiquette, and slow play for offending new membership. It is a question of education and a good schooling in the simple things (bag in the right place, not marking cards on greens, playing provisional balls) should stay with golfers throughout their golfing life. I don't think this is happening and so good to see GM looking to tackle it head on again and hopefully this will create a ripple effect amongst the others. It doesn't and shouldn't be up to one magazine and much more needs to be done across the board. Will things change? Not in the short term. Too many members (not just seniors, juniors or the women) are stuck in their ways and I'd argue some don't even know what they do each week contributes to slow play behind. These are going to be the toughest nuts to crack and I think ultimately a bridge too far.

I can see how imposing a penalty for slow play in club comps is a clear message but a double edged sword. Players want a faster round but also play for enjoyment and if they are suddenly getting penalised (maybe missing on a cut) when they may not have necessarily been solely to blame is going to stop them entering and that has to have an effect ongoing, maybe even in membership numbers.


----------



## Slime (Aug 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some very interesting and erudite responses. *It is an issue whether you choose to accept it or not.* Normally in competition (medals) *we can get a three ball round in around four hours (4:15 for the club championship and you could notice the difference).* However this doesn't mean we couldn't be better without compromising enjoyment, competitiveness and making it feel like an olympic walk between shots.
		
Click to expand...

It's an issue to some, no doubt, but it's surely not an issue to everyone ................... and who has the authority to make such a sweeping statement?

If the difference between 4 hours and 4Â¼ is that palpable I genuinely feel that you should concentrate more on your game than on the clock!

When I'm enjoying a game of golf I have no idea whether it's taking 4Â¼ or 5Â¼ hours ...................... and I care even less!


*Slime*.


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

My previous club used to hand out 2 shot penalties to any playing group who finished more than 15 minutes behind the group ahead in competitions, unless there were good extenuating circumstances.  We had one member who would stand sort of twitching over the ball for a good 30 or 40 seconds before every shot. He seemed totally oblivious to how much time he was wasting, but would then point out that we were losing ground to the group ahead and should get a move on. I could never play well if I was in his playing group because I was always hurrying my shots to make up for him! My current club has a member who has a form of the full swing yips that causes him to freeze over the ball for a similar period of time, who also causes the same problem. It therefore may not be totally fair to penalise all members of a slow playing group.


----------



## JezzE (Aug 19, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I dont agree. Why should someone have to play/walk at a speed determined by someone else?
As per my previous post, quick players out first and nip round, they're happy.
Players who want to take their time, play together in the PM, they're happy
Medium in the middle
Everyone's happy.
Live and let live
		
Click to expand...

Really not that simple, Bob - what if the players who want to take their time can only play in the mornings? What are you going to say to them: "Sorry, but you can't play golf any more as everybody else wants you to play in the afternoon"?

Eveyone, sadly, is not happy, if you're a slow player who can only play in the mornings!


----------



## Slime (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



*My previous club used to hand out 2 shot penalties to any playing group who finished more than 15 minutes behind the group ahead in competitions,* unless there were good extenuating circumstances.
		
Click to expand...

If the group ahead happened to be quick players who all played reasonably well, would the group behind be penalised for being slow or penalised for not being fast?

*Slime*.


----------



## stevelev (Aug 19, 2015)

JezzE said:



			Really not that simple, Bob - what it the players who want to take their time can only play in the mornings? What are you going to say to them: "Sorry, but you can't play golf any more as everybody else wants you to play in the afternoon"?

Eveyone, sadly, is not happy, if you're a slow player who can only play in the mornings!
		
Click to expand...

Therefore the slow player who wants to play in the morning must speed up. 

If I want to make the boxing day sales I'll get there on time, If I want to do things in the afternoon when I play golf in the morning I'll play quicker.


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

Slime said:



			If the group ahead happened to be quick players who all played reasonably well, would the group behind be penalised for being slow or penalised for not being fast?

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

You weren't penalised if you went round the (par 68) course in 3 hours 45 minutes or less.  I forgot to mention that proviso!


----------



## JezzE (Aug 19, 2015)

Slab said:



			I really don't see this out on the course

How young are these highly impressionable players that actually copy what they see on tv & how many are at your club
		
Click to expand...

Not very young, necessarily, and there are many of them of all ages, shapes, sizes and experiences...


----------



## JezzE (Aug 19, 2015)

Slicer30 said:



			Here's an idea - maybe one for Jezz and Fergus when out on the course.

How to find a ball which you have hit into the long stuff - ie " I have a line on that one" either a small bush or different coloured tree.  

quite often I see people heading to find their ball and they are 20-30 yds from the line I have of it, when I continue on that line I usually walk straight to it ( usually)
		
Click to expand...

They need to follow our 6 essential tips for finding your ball (especially points 1 to 3)...

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/featu...earch-for-a-lost-golf-ball-6-essentials-79715


----------



## JezzE (Aug 19, 2015)

stevelev said:



			So do you actually have any suggestion to speed up play or just a sat on the fence view.
		
Click to expand...

Yes we do - that's what the article will be about...


----------



## JezzE (Aug 19, 2015)

stevelev said:



			Therefore the slow player who wants to play in the morning must speed up. 

If I want to make the boxing day sales I'll get there on time, If I want to do things in the afternoon when I play golf in the morning I'll play quicker.
		
Click to expand...

What if they haven't got anything to do in the afternoon but just like playing in the mornings?


----------



## 3565 (Aug 19, 2015)

delc said:



			My previous club used to hand out 2 shot penalties to any playing group who finished more than 15 minutes behind the group ahead in competitions, unless there were good extenuating circumstances.  We had one member who would stand sort of twitching over the ball for a good 30 or 40 seconds before every shot. He seemed totally oblivious to how much time he was wasting, but would then point out that we were losing ground to the group ahead and should get a move on. I could never play well if I was in his playing group because I was always hurrying my shots to make up for him! My current club has a member who has a form of the full swing yips that causes him to freeze over the ball for a similar period of time, who also causes the same problem. It therefore may not be totally fair to penalise all members of a slow playing group.
		
Click to expand...

Id be well pissed if I got penalised 2 shots because of others. I'd argue the toss if I had a reason, and all I can see is that it would 'possibly' deter you from playing in future comps and if that 2 shot penalty took you out of the buffer zone or even a cut! 

Think its its unreasonble for them to do that!


----------



## delc (Aug 19, 2015)

3565 said:



			Id be well pissed if I got penalised 2 shots because of others. I'd argue the toss if I had a reason, and all I can see is that it would 'possibly' deter you from playing in future comps and if that 2 shot penalty took you out of the buffer zone or even a cut! 

Think its its unreasonble for them to do that!
		
Click to expand...

If stroke penalties are not handed out for slow play, particularly at tour pro level, rounds of golf can only get slower and slower. Seems perfectly reasonable to me! As I have already said, extenuating circumstance were taken into account before penalty shots were added. I should add that most of our competitions were drawn, so you were unlikely to get the same players in your group the next time. Players who received more than one slow play penalty in a given period were called before the committee and could receive a competition ban. Thus persistent offenders could be identified, as it was unlikely that all their playing groups would be collectively slow.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 20, 2015)

JezzE said:



Really not that simple, Bob - what if the players who want to take their time can only play in the mornings? What are you going to say to them: "Sorry, but you can't play golf any more as everybody else wants you to play in the afternoon"?

Eveyone, sadly, is not happy, if you're a slow player who can only play in the mornings!

Click to expand...

If you drive up close behind a slow car and start flashing your lights at it, what's the driver going to do? Normally drive even slower.
If you keep telling people to speed up on the golf course, you will often get the same result.

Give them an incentive to play quicker ie they can then play early, they will soon speed up because they want to play early, not because they were told to.




JezzE said:



			What if they haven't got anything to do in the afternoon but just like playing in the mornings?
		
Click to expand...

If he/she plays in the morning with the quick guys, he/she will either not enjoy it as will feel rushed all the time or he/she will learn to play faster.
I am talking about competition days here so maybe the slower players could be drawn towards the end of the field.

The way it is at the moment is you have a slow car and a fast car on a single lane, both are unhappy


----------



## Smiffy (Aug 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I am talking about competition days here so maybe the slower players could be drawn towards the end of the field.
		
Click to expand...

The problem you have here Bob is that the _*really*_ slow players, the ones that _*"usually"*_ cause the grief, are the ones that will deny vehemently that they are slow!!
We used to have a guy that came away on our trips, and you could _*guarantee*_ that the group he was in would always fall 2 or 3 holes behind the group in front.
We then started making sure he was drawn to play in the final group which he hated. We tried nicely to point out to him that he was the one causing the problems, but he wouldn't have it.
He used to ponce about something terrible and if we asked him to speed up a bit, he used to get the right hump.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 20, 2015)

delc said:



			If stroke penalties are not handed out for slow play, particularly at tour pro level, rounds of golf can only get slower and slower. Seems perfectly reasonable to me! As I have already said, extenuating circumstance were taken into account before penalty shots were added. I should add that most of our competitions were drawn, so you were unlikely to get the same players in your group the next time. Players who received more than one slow play penalty in a given period were called before the committee and could receive a competition ban. Thus persistent offenders could be identified, as it was unlikely that all their playing groups would be collectively slow.
		
Click to expand...

What are these extenuating circumstances.......?


----------



## Slab (Aug 20, 2015)

delc said:



			My previous club used to hand out 2 shot penalties to any playing group who finished more than 15 minutes behind the group ahead in competitions, unless there were good extenuating circumstances.  We had one member who would stand sort of twitching over the ball for a good 30 or 40 seconds before every shot. He seemed totally oblivious to how much time he was wasting, but would then point out that we were losing ground to the group ahead and should get a move on. I could never play well if I was in his playing group because I was always hurrying my shots to make up for him! My current club has a member who has a form of the full swing yips that causes him to freeze over the ball for a similar period of time, who also causes the same problem. It therefore may not be totally fair to penalise all members of a slow playing group.
		
Click to expand...


In addition to being players in a comp they are already their own referees, referees for the field and markers for other players, to add that they must also play wet-nurse and personal motivator to a slow player or theyâ€™ll be penalised is a bit daft

You cannot (fairly & justly) penalise a whole group (unless its a team event) for the actions of 1 or 2 in that group without serious ramifications and amateur golf just doesnâ€™t have the resource to put individuals on the clock


----------



## Hacker Khan (Aug 20, 2015)

As a few others have mentioned, in reality unless the governing bodies and the individual clubs prioritise this then very little, if anything will happen. There have been many articles before about slow play in many magazines, lots and lots of very sensible and good suggestions on here and in said articles.  But as with a lot of challenges that golf faces now, there seems to be a myriad of different governing bodies and organisations all trying to do well intentioned and in some cases successful initiatives, but they don't seem to have any overall coordination.  There seems to be a lack of proper leadership within the game with bodies like the R&A frozen by inertia a lot of the time and scared of 'upsetting tradition'. Or mostly focusing on how the professional game can generate more money for those at the elite level, leading to an ever increasing gap between the health of the professional game and the participation at amateur level.   

Then within most clubs the culture and mindset is that they are much more bothered about if you have your shirt untucked or if your trousers you wear in the clubhouse has rivets on them, rather than if you get round the course in a certain time.  Look on any golf clubs web site and you will find mountains of dictats on what can/can't wear, what you can't do with your mobile phone and where the club deems to allow you to use one.  At clubs itself there are plenty of signs on where you can and can't park, where you can change your shoes  etc etc.  But how many clubs emphasise the pace of play as being one of the most important things you need to know when playing a round, or are they seemingly more worried about the colour of your socks if you wear shorts?

It need a complete change of mindset by clubs and governing bodies for anything to happen and to be honest, I can't see that happening.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 20, 2015)

3565 said:



			Id be well pissed if I got penalised 2 shots because of others. I'd argue the toss if I had a reason, and all I can see is that it would 'possibly' deter you from playing in future comps and if that 2 shot penalty took you out of the buffer zone or even a cut! 

Think its its unreasonble for them to do that!
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with that. How often have you been in a group with one or two slow players who have dragged the round out to stupid time. I usually end up hurrying to compensate and playing worse anyway.

I'd argue about it as well and quite possibly change clubs if they were applying such a crude and unfair rule.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 20, 2015)

Sorry but the club wouldn't be able to appl y penalties like that based on finishing time so I'm calling it nonsense and story telling


----------



## Fish (Aug 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but the club wouldn't be able to appl y penalties like that based on finishing time so I'm calling it nonsense and story telling
		
Click to expand...

Don't mix your words and hold back, will you :smirk:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2015)

I love this debate - one that has been going on for a century since the darned Americans introduced 4 ball golf - in his book Harry Vardon railed against 4ball golf for having the potential for being soooo slow.


----------



## Slab (Aug 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but the club wouldn't be able to appl y penalties like that based on finishing time so I'm calling it nonsense and story telling
		
Click to expand...

Pretty sure the R&A say that committees can add these penalties


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 20, 2015)

Slab said:



			Pretty sure the R&A say that committees can add these penalties
		
Click to expand...

For individual players with justifiable cause and after warnings whilst playing


----------



## Slab (Aug 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For individual players with justifiable cause and after warnings whilst playing
		
Click to expand...

To whole groups too (not that I think they should be able to mind)

I'll look for the link...



edit to add:

Naturally they do need to warn etc but each player in a late group can have a penalty added

As I say I donâ€™t agree with it and if handed a penalty like this as part of my defence Iâ€™d challenge the committee on their own responsibilities re start times, pin positions & course set-up  but here it is  

My bold highlight

_Pace of Play

It is understandable that Clubs, public courses, resorts and competition organisers may have differing views on what constitutes acceptable pace of play. However, it is a fact that slow play detracts from the enjoyment of the game for many golfers, and few golfers are heard to complain about play being too quick.

Rule 6-7 governs in the event of slow play. It provides that â€œThe player must play without undue delay and in accordance with any pace of play guidelines that the Committee may establishâ€. The penalty for a breach of Rule 6-7 is loss of hole in match play and two strokes in stroke play, and for a repeated offence, disqualification. However, Note 2 under Rule 6-7 states:

â€œFor the purpose of preventing slow play, the Committee may, in the conditions of a competition (Rule 33-1), establish pace of play guidelines including maximum periods of time allowed to complete a stipulated round, a hole or a stroke. 
In match play, the Committee may, in such a condition, modify the penalty for a breach of this Rule as follows: 
First offence â€“ Loss of hole; 
Second offence â€“ Loss of hole; 
For subsequent offence â€“ Disqualification
In stroke play, the Committee may, in such a condition, modify the penalty for a breach of this Rule as follows: 
First offence â€“ One stroke; 
Second offence â€“ Two strokes; 
For subsequent offence â€“ Disqualification.â€ 

It is a matter for the Committee in charge of a competition to formulate its own pace of play guidelines, although in practice the nature of such a condition will be dependant on the number of Committee members available to implement it. 

For example, at The Open it is possible to adopt a hole by hole pace of play guideline and, subsequently, shot by shot timing procedures if a group is out of position on the course and in excess of the prescribed time limit (see Appendix G for the full Pace of Play condition adopted at The Open). 

Obviously, it is unlikely that such a policy could be successfully adopted at Club level. *Therefore, if the Committee is having problems with pace of play, it may be necessary to formulate a simple condition whereby the Committee establishes a time limit that it considers is more than adequate for players to complete the round and/or a certain number of holes (which will vary depending on numbers in groups and form of play). In the circumstances where a group exceeds the prescribed time limit and is out of position on the course (see Appendix G for definition of â€œout of positionâ€) each player in the group is subject to penalty.* 

*As an example of this form of condition, a Committee may decide that a group of three playing stroke play should not take more than 1 hour 45 minutes to complete nine holes and stipulate that if they exceed this limit, and are out of position, all three players are subject to a penalty of one stroke. In addition, the condition may state that if they fail to complete the second nine holes in the prescribed time and are still out of position all three players are subject to a further penalty of two strokes.* 

The problem with adopting such a policy where each player in the group is penalised for a breach of the condition is that it does not consider individual responsibility for the delay and a player who is blameless may be penalised. However, this type of policy may assist in terms of a groupâ€™s self-regulation with slower players being encouraged to improve their pace of play.

The time limits prescribed in the condition must take account of the form of play (e.g. a foursome should be quicker than a single) and the age of those playing (e.g. a â€œjuniorâ€ should be quicker than a â€œseniorâ€). In addition, the climate and the course itself, with regard to factors such as length, severity, layout, etc. will have a significant bearing on what the Committee decides is a reasonable time for players to take.

In major Amateur competitions and Professional events, the Committee may wish to establish a hole by hole pace of play guideline. It is impossible to give specific recommendations as to the times that should be applied to each hole, but a number of factors should be taken into consideration. Firstly, while Professional golfers cannot be given unlimited time to complete a round, it has to be recognised that they are playing for their livelihood and, therefore, generally more time may be afforded to play than would be the case in Amateur events.
More specifically, if in an elite Amateur or Professional event the Committee has decided on standard times for par 3â€™s, par 4â€™s and 5â€™s (e.g. 11, 14 and 17 minutes respectively), adjustments should be made to take into account severity/simplicity of a particular hole and walking distances between the green of the hole last played and the next tee.

*While a pace of play condition may assist in monitoring the speed of play and will identify the slow player, not all slow play is the fault of the players themselves. A Committee can cause play to grind to a halt by letting too many players on to the course too quickly. It is important that the Committee allow sufficient time in between each starting time to enable the groups to stretch away from one another so that players are not waiting on every shot*. In addition, where possible it is advisable for a Committee to introduce â€œStarterâ€™s Gapsâ€ where every so often a starting time is left blank so that a build up on the course is not necessarily perpetuated all the way through the field.

*Also, overly severe course set-up may contribute to the pace of play being slower than desirable. In particular, time spent putting can be increased if hole positions are too difficult*.
Identifying the most suitable pace of play guidelines and the ideal starting times may be a case of trial and error. However, when the correct methods are established they can greatly assist in the enjoyment of the game for all concerned in the competition. For more guidance on pace of play for general play, see Appendix G.
_


----------



## Spuddy (Aug 20, 2015)

Slab said:



			To whole groups too (not that I think they should be able to mind)

I'll look for the link...
		
Click to expand...

Here it is 
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...unning-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=5&section=6


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 20, 2015)

Slab said:



			To whole groups too (not that I think they should be able to mind)

I'll look for the link...
		
Click to expand...

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...unning-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=5&section=6

This is the link in the R&A and its full of conditions and warnings and requirements for committee members to be present etc etc


----------



## Spuddy (Aug 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...unning-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=5&section=6

This is the link in the R&A and its full of conditions and warnings and requirements for committee members to be present etc etc
		
Click to expand...

This is the paragraph that relates to club competitions (where there aren't referees to put people on the clock etc)

if the Committee is having problems with pace of play, it may be necessary to formulate a simple condition whereby the Committee establishes a time limit that it considers is more than adequate for players to complete the round and/or a certain number of holes (which will vary depending on numbers in groups and form of play). In the circumstances where a group exceeds the prescribed time limit and is out of position on the course (see Appendix G for definition of â€œout of positionâ€) each player in the group is subject to penalty.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 20, 2015)

I have read it before and it's been discussed to death at our committee meeting and we involved R&A and they established with our committee it's not a workable rule for club comps without on course refs etc


----------



## Slab (Aug 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have read it before and it's been discussed to death at our committee meeting and we involved R&A and they established with our committee it's not a workable rule for club comps without on course refs etc
		
Click to expand...

Agree I think it would be incredibly unjust & so do the R&A judging by this paragraph:
_
The problem with adopting such a policy where each player in the group is penalised for a breach of the condition is that it does not consider individual responsibility for the delay and a player who is blameless may be penalised. However, this type of policy may assist in terms of a groupâ€™s self-regulation with slower players being encouraged to improve their pace of play._

And they shift the responsibility of managing a slow player onto the blameless quicker player/s. I guess the point is that if a blameless player cant speed up a slow player then he deserves a penalty anyway


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2015)

Clubs need to have a slow play admission amnesty.  So let's say last two weeks in April - at start of comp season - every player can admit to their faults and ask to be chivvied along without criticism or hurt taken if others spot them during play. And PPs are free to point out faults not admitted to.  

I admit to taking a bit too long over my putts when they don't matter; yacking too much engaging players when they should be playing their shot or getting to their ball; wandering about in the rough or grubbing about in the gorse looking for golf balls when I could be just getting on with walking up the fairway or whatever.  But I bet there are other things I do that slow things up and that I don't realise I'm doing or that do indeed slow play up.  I need to be told.


----------



## bluewolf (Aug 20, 2015)

Start applying 2 shot penalties to slower groups and you can say a big hello to exclusion golf. I know some slower players, and there's absolutely no chance that I'd play with them in competitive games if I'm risking a 2 shot penalty or being forced to rush my game to compensate.. And before anyone states the obvious, they have been told they're slow and they can't do anything about it.. Thy're slow. It's a personality thing.. So much for the great inclusive game..

As has been said before, educate certain people to stand aside and let faster groups through. There are still plenty of people who won't do this (apply a 2 shot penalty for this if you want).
 Stop 4 ball golf in competition.
Stop trying to squeeze everyone in by making tee times 6-8 minutes apart (10 minutes is ample).
Identify bottle necks and do something about them.


----------



## delc (Aug 20, 2015)

Imurg said:



			What are these extenuating circumstances.......?
		
Click to expand...

The 2 Stroke penalty was not applied if the three ball group got round the 5800 yard par 68 course in 3 hours 45 minutes or less (which was considered a reasonable time), if the group had been called through on the back nine (as otherwise a slow group would be able to pass the penalty onto the following group), medical emergencies, or delays caused by greenkeepers. It generally worked OK as players knew the potential penalty was there and tended to try to keep up with the group ahead.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2015)

In the 1990's I managed a very busy municipal course with a club membership of over 1200.
Decent 18 hole Hawtree course par72, SSS71.

We would be recording over 600 rounds on a busy summer day on our 18 and 9 hole courses combined.
Seldom did rounds slip over 4 hours on 18 and 2 hours on the 9 holes.
Club medals were restricted to 3 balls and that was when the course was slowest. The quality of club players was high, over 150 single figure players.

We had strict rules re slow play and a team of three or four marshalls controlling operations from 10am to 7pm. Only one on per shift.
Slow play in club competitions was an ongoing problem and was instantly solved when 2 shot penalties started to be 'awarded'.
The club captain and secretary being two of the earlier players penalised.

That was then, nowadays golfers seem to be quite a selfish bunch with no sense of 'common good'.
I do not think you are going to change them as they seem to have a majority. Many golfers are also not fit enough to complete 18 holes in 3 hours.
I gave up golf aged 66 and part of the reason was slow play, life is too short to spend 5 hours on a golf course, especially if you are standing waiting for two of those hours.

PS..... 10 minute tee times are essential. Holding players back from playing too early is also important. Many will drive off as soon the first group is just out of range.


----------



## Leereed (Aug 20, 2015)

Set the course up for the weather conditions if bad change to stableford from medal.Keep the rough manageable, at ours if off fairway by 10 yards its knee deep.Be willing to play out of turn and be ready to play your shot.And don't wait for green to clear on par 5's when you have just hit your drive 150 yards!


----------



## 3565 (Aug 20, 2015)

Played in a comp with a FC who walked but to his pace whilst I stomped up the fairway often 20 yds in front with next to no conversation due to the fact we were behind in play, lost a hole if not more. He was off a 15 hc and after we were having a discussion about slow play and that I'm still to this day known as a slow player from 20yrs ago. He was astounded at this and said you are not slow, and preceded to tell me his aliment which caused him to walk at his pace and said he found it difficult to keep up with me............... I felt a complete knob and let the 'slow play' syndrome that is constantly being banged on about get the better of me. 

My FC said that it doesn't bother him how long it takes because as far as he was concerned he thought it was a privilege to play the game of golf in such nice surroundings and weather and why do you want to charge around just cos you've not got the time or need to be somewhere else, if that's the case then don't play.  

Got to say I don't disagree with him. Just another's point of view


----------



## delc (Aug 20, 2015)

If you walk slowly due to an ailment or injury, wouldn't it be better to hire a golf buggy?  Lots of our less mobile veterans do this.


----------



## Sybez (Aug 20, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Sorry mate. We're talking about speeding up play, not condoning "bad manners" or "etiquette".....and that to me is the height of bad manners.
I might have blobbed the hole, ended up walking it and be giving myself a right telling off as I stand by my bag by the side of the green.
But 9 times out of 10 I will still go and tend the flag for the guys who are still playing the hole.
I'd feel as guilty as sin if I didn't
		
Click to expand...

They do this in the US with the juniors and has worked wonders on the pace of play apparently! Not my idea, blame the USPGA.

Etiquette has its place in major comps, but "ready" golf in most medals, stablefords and bounce games should keep the pace up and not crease the plus fours of the committee.

Too many old timers (not aimed at Smiffy) making the game stuffy and pompus. Get on an play! :thup:


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2015)

Sybez said:



			Too many old timers (not aimed at Smiffy) making the game stuffy and pompus. Get on an play! :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Oi matey, re-think required.
Us stuffy old timers are used to 3 hour rounds.

Gullible wannabees mimicking sleep inducing Pro's the more likely cause.


----------



## Slime (Aug 20, 2015)

delc said:



			If you walk slowly due to an ailment or injury, wouldn't it be better to hire a golf buggy?  Lots of our less mobile veterans do this.
		
Click to expand...


Not if the ailment requires taking regular exercise ....................... just saying.

*Slime*.


----------



## 3565 (Aug 20, 2015)

Slime said:



			Not if the ailment requires taking regular exercise ....................... just saying.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, think it was his hip he had done, and some young ones who are fit and healthy have electric trolley.


----------



## Slab (Aug 21, 2015)

Think I just stumbled across the problem...




Because you know I'm all about that pace, 'bout that pace, no rebels
I'm all 'bout that pace, 'bout that pace, no rebels


----------



## chrisd (Aug 21, 2015)

My place is heavily tree lined and the pace really slows up when they let the rough grow between the trees as well as the lower branches not allowing access under the trees. This year we seem to have readopted the idea of cutting this back generously and I'm sure that play has sped up accordingly, much less searching but still the same penalty extricating oneself from the tree line back into play. 

Most slow play I see comes from newer golfers with elaborate, and slow routines but hitting 25+ more shots than their playing  partners.


----------



## delc (Aug 21, 2015)

chrisd said:



			Most slow play I see comes from newer golfers with elaborate, and slow routines but hitting 25+ more shots than their playing  partners.
		
Click to expand...

The elaborate and slow routines presumably picked up from watching the tour pros on TV. Something has to be done about slow play in pro tournaments, or golf will grind completely to a halt!


----------



## chrisd (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			The elaborate and slow routines presumably picked up from watching the tour pros on TV. Something has to be done about slow play in pro tournaments, or golf will grind completely to a halt!  

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's the reason Del. I think it may be nerves playing a part, 3 or 4 practice swings then they seem to stand over the ball frozen for ages before duffing it 80 yards and then an extra practice swing next time to be sure of hitting it better this time (which they don't). Also many newbies don't seem to pull a club out of the bag until it's their turn to play whereas we stand waiting with club in hand ready.


----------



## Slicer30 (Aug 21, 2015)

bit of telepathy!
Jezza wrote this piece earlier this week on ball finding tips
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/featur...sentials-79715
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...-done-to-improve-it/page3#YqHoytKqwy2OQ3Fk.99

Ha -spooky indeed.

good article too!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			The elaborate and slow routines presumably picked up from watching the tour pros on TV. Something has to be done about slow play in pro tournaments, or golf will grind completely to a halt!  

Click to expand...

I think a lot of players new to the game pick up their 'elaborate and slow' routines from the pro giving them lessons.  The pro doesn't make clear that a lot of what he is teaching is for the practice ground and NOT for golf course, and maybe doesn't teach the newbie how to transfer his practice routine into a playing routine.  And I guess this applies for all of us taking lessons.


----------



## delc (Aug 21, 2015)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure that's the reason Del. I think it may be nerves playing a part, 3 or 4 practice swings then they seem to stand over the ball frozen for ages before duffing it 80 yards and then an extra practice swing next time to be sure of hitting it better this time (which they don't). Also many newbies don't seem to pull a club out of the bag until it's their turn to play whereas we stand waiting with club in hand ready.
		
Click to expand...

As far as I can see, many tour pros don't start thinking about their shots until it's their turn to play either! Then you get the long discussion with their caddie, throwing grass up to gauge the wind, practice swings, lining up the shot from behind, possibly a change of club, another practice swing, and maybe then ready to go. Even then some of them (e.g. Keegan Bradley) will keep backing off the shot! I often find myself shouting "For God's sake get on with it man" at the television set!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

I truly believe that the only solution can come from within - where every player looks at themselves and identifies where they take more time than they might, or that they can see other players taking.  We must all be honest with ourselves and admit our own failings - and do something about them, and then we will be able to tell other players of aspects of their play that are slow.  Nothing like a good biblical quote for a day to day golf problem (Matthew 7:3  )

_For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?â€¦
_

And the club must ENCOURAGE players to accept these observations from others as positive criticism and something that all members are expected to do - offer and take.  If we each and every one of us sort out one of our own slow play issues - and we ALL have them, then rounds will get quicker without having to do anything else.  Oh idealism.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

Must admit, if it's windy and I'm not playing first I often prefer to see how my FC's ball flight is affected by the wind before I decide which club to play.

That's probably only one example of sometimes not doing the "right" thing for speeding play up but, for all the great "rules" we know about playing quickly, there does need to be a bit of balance when you're trying to put a score together.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Must admit, if it's windy and I'm not playing first I often prefer to see how my FC's ball flight is affected by the wind before I decide which club to play.

That's probably only one example of sometimes not doing the "right" thing for speeding play up but, for all the great "rules" we know about playing quickly, there does need to be a bit of balance when you're trying to put a score together.
		
Click to expand...

Point is that you have been honest to yourself and openly admitted it to this forum.  And you will be aware of the time you take on a windy day when playing and so will be a little quicker that you might.  

And so on a windy day in a friendly could you tell your PPs at the outset that you have a habit of perhaps taking too long over your club selection and you want to sort that out as it can be an issue for others - and so if they saw that happening could they tell you.  Could you do that I wonder.  I think it what we all need to do.


----------



## Slab (Aug 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think a lot of players new to the game pick up their 'elaborate and slow' routines from the pro giving them lessons.  The pro doesn't make clear that a lot of what he is teaching is for the practice ground and NOT for golf course, and maybe doesn't teach the newbie how to transfer his practice routine into a playing routine.  And I guess this applies for all of us taking lessons.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, far more likely its teaching pros (& teaching pros/tipsters on internet golf instructional vids) rather than TV influencing them


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Point is that you have been honest to yourself and openly admitted it to this forum.  And you will be aware of the time you take on a windy day when playing and so will be a little quicker that you might.  

And so on a windy day in a friendly could you tell your PPs at the outset that you have a habit of perhaps taking too long over your club selection and you want to sort that out as it can be an issue for others - and so if they saw that happening could they tell you.  Could you do that I wonder.  I think it what we all need to do.
		
Click to expand...

No. My point is that I don't think I'm taking too long over my club selection in that scenario but I do know that I'm flouting the "quick play best practice". 

There's a balance to be struck between being ridiculous (lining up a mark on a ball for a two foot putt, perhaps) and taking a bit more time as you try to minimise your score.

For me it's about being quick when you can, such as walking between shots, but being deliberate when you need to be.

Personally, I'd rather shoot 67 in 4 hours than 72 in 3.5!


----------



## delc (Aug 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			Yup, far more likely its teaching pros (& teaching pros/tipsters on internet golf instructional vids) rather than TV influencing them
		
Click to expand...

My pro sometimes gets me to put alignment rods on the ground, which you are not allowed to do anyway in competitions, but I can't think of anything he has told me that would add time to my pre-shot routine!  It's copying the tour pros on TV that is the problem.  There wasn't much TV golf when I was a youngster, what there was was in black and white, and rounds of golf only took about 3 hours, not the 5 hour endurance tests they tend to be these days!


----------



## Slab (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			My pro sometimes gets me to put alignment rods on the ground, which you are not allowed to do anyway in competitions, but I can't think of anything he has told me that would add time to my pre-shot routine!  It's copying the tour pros on TV that is the problem.  There wasn't much TV golf when I was a youngster, and what there was was in black and white, and rounds of golf only took about 3 hours, not the 5 hour endurance tests they tend to be these days!  

Click to expand...

We'll agree to differ then. I know what I see & I don't see people remotely resembling tv pros PSR. I do see them standing feet together, then separating them deliberately (slowly), looking at their feet, bringing clubs up to eye level to look at their grip, holding clubs in both hands to their groin for alignment, backswings that last 3-4 seconds

I think aligning the ball on the green could well be a bad habit picked up from tv but the majority of PSR's are from teaching/internet pros


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			We'll agree to differ then. I know what I see & I don't see people remotely resembling tv pros PSR. I do see them standing feet together, then separating them deliberately (slowly), looking at their feet, bringing clubs up to eye level to look at their grip, holding clubs in both hands to their groin for alignment, backswings that last 3-4 seconds

I think aligning the ball on the green could well be a bad habit picked up from tv but the majority of PSR's are from teaching/internet pros
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this.  That's my experience.  And as FD says - I see an awful lot of faffing about setting alignment using alignment lines on the ball - for short putts - and for all putts - repeated returns to ball to tweak alignment as players thinking on his line changes,


----------



## Slab (Aug 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agree with this.  That's my experience.  And as FD says - I see an awful lot of faffing about setting alignment using alignment lines on the ball - for short putts - and for all putts - repeated returns to ball to tweak alignment as players thinking on his line changes,
		
Click to expand...

Its worse though, I'm sure you'll have seen it too... they do it on the tee!!

Fiddling with the ball to put their alignment line pointing where the hope it'll go, which TV pro is seen every week doing that?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			No. My point is that I don't think I'm taking too long over my club selection in that scenario but I do know that I'm flouting the "quick play best practice". 

There's a balance to be struck between being ridiculous (lining up a mark on a ball for a two foot putt, perhaps) and taking a bit more time as you try to minimise your score.

For me it's about being quick when you can, such as walking between shots, but being deliberate when you need to be.

Personally, I'd rather shoot 67 in 4 hours than 72 in 3.5!
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate that  - but it's the sort of *thinking* about ourselves and how we play that I think is key to sorting out slow play


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			Its worse though, I'm sure you'll have seen it too... they do it on the tee!!

Fiddling with the ball to put their alignment line pointing where the hope it'll go, which TV pro is seen every week doing that?
		
Click to expand...

How many of us will admit to the behaviour we describe - I bet quite a few on here do all  this sort of tweaking - will they admit to it though - and would they admit to it being a contributor to slow rounds.  I predict some will admit then add that they otherwise play quickly.  For me that's avoiding the point. It's the pace of the *group *through all phases of the game that causes the problem.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I appreciate that  - but it's the sort of *thinking* about ourselves and how we play that I think is key to sorting out slow play
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. I'm always conscious about the pace of play and do what I can to keep it up but won't compromise my medal score if it means rushing. Can still play a medal in under 3 hours with that mindset, given a clear course and the right playing partner....


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agree with this.  That's my experience.  And as FD says - I see an awful lot of faffing about setting alignment using alignment lines on the ball - for short putts - and for all putts - repeated returns to ball to tweak alignment as players thinking on his line changes,
		
Click to expand...

I do this, not on 2ft putts but on most of my putts.
To be honest I line up the putt then go back further to take a look to see if ive lined up properly and if I have not I go back and adjust.

However going back to the op question my answer to all the little things that everbody mentions the answer to me is nothing.

Golfers will always do what they do because its a routine they have gotten into and its hard to change.

Course design,shorter rough,less blind tee shots waiting for a bell will always be bigger factors than any personal factors.


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			No. My point is that I don't think I'm taking too long over my club selection in that scenario but I do know that I'm flouting the "quick play best practice". 

There's a balance to be struck between being ridiculous (lining up a mark on a ball for a two foot putt, perhaps) and taking a bit more time as you try to minimise your score.

For me it's about being quick when you can, such as walking between shots, but being deliberate when you need to be.

Personally, I'd rather shoot 67 in 4 hours than 72 in 3.5!
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with the score issue.

Ive lost count of the number of short putts ive missed by rushing or leaning over and have seen playing partners rush and mess up too.

If I walk faster to my ball I have more time to do what I need to do.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

I too have a routine for all putts - down to 12"-18" And it definitely has meant me missing fewer shorties.  It is simply a process and doesn't actually involve the ball other than marking, picking, cleaning and replacing - absolutely no consideration of how the ball and manufacturer, number, markings etc are 'aligned'.  I do however feel that obsessively aligning of marks, lines etc can be a bit excessive and unnecessarily times consuming as part of a putting routine.  Especially when repeated.  

But again - the pace of the group is determined by the slowest player in the group in each phase of playing.  If I am the slowest at putting it doesn't matter that I am fast in all other phases if someone else is slower.  It is my slower putting that contributes to the length of the round


----------



## delc (Aug 21, 2015)

I agree that there is much more faffing about on the greens than there used to be. Aimpoint and lines drawn on golf balls have a lot to answer for!


----------



## garyinderry (Aug 21, 2015)

The odd time I line up the ball and notice it is a bit out I don't go back to it. I just use that line and aim a hair left or right. 

I don't precisely line it up. General direction will do then fine tune with eyes.

grates me seeing people are adjust over and over in a round.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			The odd time I line up the ball and notice it is a bit out I don't go back to it. I just use that line and aim a hair left or right. 

I don't precisely line it up. General direction will do then fine tune with eyes.

grates me seeing people are adjust over and over in a round.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like some little bit of agreement over excessive faffing about by players aligning/re-aligned their ball prior to putting. My normal golfing buddy is an offender of this sort.  Must mention this to him :mmm:


----------



## 3565 (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			I agree that there is much more faffing about on the greens than there used to be. Aimpoint and lines drawn on golf balls have a lot to answer for!
		
Click to expand...

Yep, and if we had bigger holes..............


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			I agree that there is much more faffing about on the greens than there used to be. Aimpoint and lines drawn on golf balls have a lot to answer for!
		
Click to expand...

Aimpoint is a nightmare and sadly becoming more popular....


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			The odd time I line up the ball and notice it is a bit out I don't go back to it. I just use that line and aim a hair left or right. 

I don't precisely line it up. General direction will do then fine tune with eyes.

grates me seeing people are adjust over and over in a round.
		
Click to expand...

Look forward to playing with you sometime I will get under your skin.:ears:


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 21, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			Look forward to playing with you sometime I will get under your skin.:ears:
		
Click to expand...

You'd get under a hippo's skin! :ears:


----------



## delc (Aug 21, 2015)

3565 said:



			Yep, and if we had bigger holes..............
		
Click to expand...

They probably would speed up play quite considerably, because there would be fewer putts and players would have more confidence about holing short ones!


----------



## pokerjoke (Aug 21, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			You'd get under a hippo's skin! :ears:
		
Click to expand...

Your the right size:ears:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

3565 said:



			Yep, and if we had bigger holes..............
		
Click to expand...

folks would still faff around with a load of checking who goes first - even in friendly roll-up knocks.

This is a problem in my place.  Our Sat am roll-up is individual stableford played in 4 balls - but at same time we play a 4BBB match within each group.  You can see how this has folks applying etiquette over who  plays first - even when all four could be scoring zero points there wouldn't be a pick up and checking who goes first for 4bbb reasons.  I have expressed my view that we should stop the 4BBB match aspect as it does really slow things up and works against 'ready golf'.  And in an individual stableford 4 ball 'ready golf' must be the way to play it,


----------



## garyinderry (Aug 21, 2015)

Not so much under my skin.  But it does feel like layers being slowly peeled off. 

Lol


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Not so much under my skin.  But it does feel like layers being slowly peeled off. 

Lol
		
Click to expand...

You mean when he's eventually got himself over the ball and about to putt...and he changes his bleedin' mind.  Back to the ball.  Mark, pick up, recheck line, ball back down, realign ball with new thinking. And so on. aaaaaargh!!!


----------



## stevelev (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Aimpoint is a nightmare and sadly becoming more popular....
		
Click to expand...

 I thinks its more about lining up on yourchosen line, than choosing the line.  So not really aimpoint, I personally choose my line snd pick a point 1 to 2 feet along my line ahead of the ball, line up on that and let it go.  I always put the ball so no logo or line at the top.

I think ready golf would speed the game up toa degree but the slooooow players still wouldnt be ready


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

stevelev said:



			I thinks its more about lining up on yourchosen line, than choosing the line.  So not really aimpoint, I personally choose my line snd pick a point 1 to 2 feet along my line ahead of the ball, line up on that and let it go.  I always put the ball so no logo or line at the top.

I think ready golf would speed the game up toa degree but the slooooow players still wouldnt be ready
		
Click to expand...

Two separate issues - lining up the ball can be a faff but aimpoint takes forever and is very annoying when a PP is using it!


----------



## bluewolf (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			aimpoint takes forever and is very annoying when a PP is using it!
		
Click to expand...

Don't start that old chestnut again!!!
FWIW, I'm not sure that the real causes of slow play can be influenced in enough numbers to make a genuine difference.. My own pet hate is the PP who, when confronted, states "I've paid my money, I'll take as long as I want." What difference is this going to make to them?


----------



## stevelev (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Aimpoint is a nightmare and sadly becoming more popular....
		
Click to expand...




FairwayDodger said:



			Two separate issues - lining up the ball can be a faff but aimpoint takes forever and is very annoying when a PP is using it!
		
Click to expand...

I bet it doednt take as long as you farting round lining up over and over again, at least they only read once


----------



## garyinderry (Aug 21, 2015)

Something about aim point doesn't sit right with me.  Much more so than anchored putting strokes.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

stevelev said:



			I bet it doednt take as long as you farting round lining up over and over again, at least they only read once 

Click to expand...

Not sure why you think I line it up - I don't. Aimpoint is atrocious - takes forever.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Don't start that old chestnut again!!!
FWIW, I'm not sure that the real causes of slow play can be influenced in enough numbers to make a genuine difference.. My own pet hate is the PP who, when confronted, states "I've paid my money, I'll take as long as I want." What difference is this going to make to them?
		
Click to expand...

If someone who doesn't use aimpoint finds that things are slower when playing with someone who does - then it's not an old chestnut. It's a truthful observation and not an opinion. I know nothing about aimpoint and don't think I've played with someone using it - but it does sound to me that aimpointers are in denial.


----------



## bluewolf (Aug 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If someone who doesn't use aimpoint finds that things are slower when playing with someone who does - then it's not an old chestnut. It's a truthful observation and not an opinion. I know nothing about aimpoint and don't think I've played with someone using it - but it does sound to me that aimpointers are in denial.
		
Click to expand...

I don't use aim point, I just can't be Mike Harris'd reading through the usual 10 pages of discussion about Aimpoint.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If someone who doesn't use aimpoint finds that things are slower when playing with someone who does - then it's not an old chestnut. It's a truthful observation and not an opinion. I know nothing about aimpoint and don't think I've played with someone using it - but it does sound to me that aimpointers are in denial.
		
Click to expand...

Pray that you never have to suffer a playing partner using aimpoint.


----------



## bluewolf (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Pray that you never have to suffer a playing partner using aimpoint.
		
Click to expand...

Stop poking the bloody bear will you


----------



## stevelev (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Aimpoint is a nightmare and sadly becoming more popular....
		
Click to expand...




bluewolf said:



			Stop poking the bloody bear will you 

Click to expand...

 ha ha


----------



## chellie (Aug 21, 2015)

Would a round of 3hrs 15 minutes including a loo break after nine and picking up a brew at the half way house ( but not stopping there to drink it) be considered slow?


----------



## 3565 (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			They probably would speed up play quite considerably, because there would be fewer putts and players would have more confidence about holing short ones!  

Click to expand...

And what do you think Aimpoints purpose is then? and have you taken the course?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

chellie said:



			Would a round of 3hrs 15 minutes including a loo break after nine and picking up a brew at the half way house ( but not stopping there to drink it) be considered slow?
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like a leading question but, no, that doesn't seem slow. Don't tell me you were using aimpoint?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2015)

They need to take the bull by the horns and reduce an official golf round to 12 holes........simples.


----------



## delc (Aug 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They need to take the bull by the horns and reduce an official golf round to 12 holes........simples.
		
Click to expand...

You can get round 18 holes in not much more than 3 hours if you don't faff around!


----------



## nickjdavis (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not sure why you think I line it up - I don't. Aimpoint is atrocious - takes forever.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't have to take forever if done properly.

Someone who actually knows what they are doing when using Aimpoint can have a read in 10 seconds.... especially with the Express system.... sure the original system took some tie to get used to and "training yourself" to use it effectively and quickly took some time.... but once you were au fait with the system.... didn't really add much time at all.

I'm wondering if all these folks complaining about lining up lines on balls actually consider the time saved in actually taking a bit more care over a putt and holing it (if a short one) or leaving a tap in (if a longer putt) when compared to having to go through the whole routine again when the player has missed it by a fair margin?


----------



## stevelev (Aug 21, 2015)

nickjdavis said:



			Doesn't have to take forever if done properly.

Someone who actually knows what they are doing when using Aimpoint can have a read in 10 seconds.... especially with the Express system.... sure the original system took some tie to get used to and "training yourself" to use it effectively and quickly took some time.... but once you were au fait with the system.... didn't really add much time at all.

I'm wondering if all these folks complaining about lining up lines on balls actually consider the time saved in actually taking a bit more care over a putt and holing it (if a short one) or leaving a tap in (if a longer putt) when compared to having to go through the whole routine again when the player has missed it by a fair margin?
		
Click to expand...

And the hook has been taken


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not sure why you think I line it up - I don't. Aimpoint is atrocious - takes forever.
		
Click to expand...

Aimpoint takes me 20 seconds using the chart and less than that if I use the express version. Can usually be done while players are coming on to the green


----------



## stevelev (Aug 21, 2015)

Never mid the hook, a net will be needed. 

Can we get back to the OP post, aimpoint deserves its own section in the forum ne:


----------



## chellie (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sounds like a leading question but, no, that doesn't seem slow. Don't tell me you were using aimpoint? 

Click to expand...

No aimpoint here. Just the fact that my FC and myself were constantly pushed from before we'd even finished the first and we both felt it, rushed and our golf suffered Same happened to an earlier pair as well.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			You can get round 18 holes in not much more than 3 hours if you don't faff around!
		
Click to expand...

If you really get a move on, a 2 ball can get round in 2 hours...but why would you want to?

My question is - How fast do people want to get round?
Is much of the perception of slow play down to the amount of time we have available to play? - I have 3 hrs 45 minutes spare, therefore if the round takes more than 3 hours its been slow.
Are people stopping playing cricket - I don't know, but it takes a damn sight longer than a round of golf.
Golf is a hard game and it takes time to play.
Sometimes it gets silly and takes longer - so does getting round the M25
Sometimes the pace is slow and nothing will speed it up if you're the 20th group out - the pace is set.
You either have to get on with it or go home.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, there obviously is.
But, in real terms, if a round takes 4 hours instead of 3 hrs 30 does it really matter a bundle..?
Or 4 hrs 45 instead of 4 hrs 15....?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Pray that you never have to suffer a playing partner using aimpoint.
		
Click to expand...

One of our regular playing partners recently took the aimpoint course - he takes forever to read putts at the moment - seems to take three or four "readings" on every putt and anything up to about 3 feet ?! 

Thankfully I have been paired with him yet but I'm certainly going to have no issue asking he increase his pace of there is a problem


----------



## Robobum (Aug 21, 2015)

Do you people really encounter slow play that often?

Aside from pro ams, I reckon I've experienced slow play a mere handful of times in the years that I've been playing.


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Pray that you never have to suffer a playing partner using aimpoint.
		
Click to expand...

Played with a guy earlier this year who used it. Didn't even realise till he was half way round he was using it. Don't think it made any difference to the pace of play. Equally, he played tee to green at a very decent pace.


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 21, 2015)

Robobum said:



			Do you people really encounter slow play that often?

Aside from pro ams, I reckon I've experienced slow play a mere handful of times in the years that I've been playing.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe once or twice a year. A number of years ago I was asked to check out a few players, the joys of Chairman of Comps, and to be honest there wasn't a single one that was slow around the course. They might have had a slow putting routine, or when teeing off but they made up the time elsewhere in the round.


----------



## Scotty Cameron (Aug 21, 2015)

Took us just over an hour to play three holes today 

we walked off after the fourth, just couldn't bear it any longer. I just wish these societies would get there act together.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Aug 21, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Aimpoint takes me 20 seconds using the chart and less than that if I use the express version. Can usually be done while players are coming on to the green
		
Click to expand...

Ok well since its a bit of a tangent I won't argue the toss but my experience of playing with people using aimpoint express is that they take significantly longer to read putts than anyone else I've ever played with. It's likely different people take different lengths of time but at least one of those was one of the best players I've ever played with and it certainly worked for her given the putts she was making but it wasn't quick.


----------



## 3565 (Aug 21, 2015)

Imurg said:



			If you really get a move on, a 2 ball can get round in 2 hours...but why would you want to?

My question is - How fast do people want to get round?
Is much of the perception of slow play down to the amount of time we have available to play? - I have 3 hrs 45 minutes spare, therefore if the round takes more than 3 hours its been slow.
Are people stopping playing cricket - I don't know, but it takes a damn sight longer than a round of golf.
Golf is a hard game and it takes time to play.
Sometimes it gets silly and takes longer - so does getting round the M25
Sometimes the pace is slow and nothing will speed it up if you're the 20th group out - the pace is set.
You either have to get on with it or go home.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, there obviously is.
But, in real terms, if a round takes 4 hours instead of 3 hrs 30 does it really matter a bundle..?
Or 4 hrs 45 instead of 4 hrs 15....?
		
Click to expand...

Yep totally agree with this, I'd rather spend 5 hrs on a course then 5 hrs at work........ Doesn't mean I condone it, just saying in principle. 

If this is such an issue then maybe Golf Monthly should get a few of you together and make a you tube video of how you want play to speed up. 

Why not get rid of ALL technology and go back to the oldsters time of just a 150 marker post, no strokesavers, GPS, DMDs, lasers, no marks on balls, get the ball companies to shorten the length a ball flies then you won't get the numpties who stand 275yds from the green on par 5s waiting for green to clear then proceed to nob it 50.... Let's just tee it up, stand to it, take one look and swipe at it, and walk very briskly to your next shot and not talk to your FCs as the speedsters will be bellowing slow play slow play. 

You start at 1st tee and end on 18th green and WHATEVER the time it took is the day's pace of play. You can't control what others do, so just deal with it.


----------



## richart (Aug 21, 2015)

delc said:



			The elaborate and slow routines presumably picked up from watching the tour pros on TV. Something has to be done about slow play in pro tournaments, or golf will grind completely to a halt!  

Click to expand...

 Totally agree. Penalty shots need to be enforced.

When you watch the golf on Sky in the evening they flit between players, play seems reasonably fast. When you watch only one group on the red button, and you see the pre shot routines, the stalking of the ball, backing away from putts etc it is mind blowingly slow.


----------



## 3565 (Aug 22, 2015)

richart said:



			Totally agree. Penalty shots need to be enforced.

When you watch the golf on Sky in the evening they flit between players, play seems reasonably fast. When you watch only one group on the red button, and you see the pre shot routines, the stalking of the ball, backing away from putts etc it is mind blowingly slow.

Click to expand...

Tbh, the pro game has got a loooooonnngggggg way to catch up with the amateur game on speed of play. Yes they are playing for gazzzillions of dosh but they hit the ball better then us, play shots better then us, sink more longer putts then us, but watching them on the greens stalking their 15ft putt from all sides then they mentally prepare, stand, take a few practise strokes, then go and hit it, a regular amateur 3 ball would of played their putts in the time it takes them to hit one!!!
grant you, they play courses that are considerably longer then we do, but they hit the 300+ drives not us!!! 

its the norm now, your not going to get the rounds reduced by any significant timescale as there are any amount of different playing levels, fitness levels, disabilities, in the amateur game, but not within the pro ranks. They are all at a 'similar' level yet the governing bodies don't do anything to speed them up to get THEM to the timescales that on an 'average' we amateurs play to.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 22, 2015)

The field should dictate the pace - if you are up with the group in front or within half a hole then you are fulfilling your responsibilities in regards pace of play 

Loosing holes to the group in front is slow play and has a detrimental effect on the whole field


----------



## Smiffy (Aug 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The field should dictate the pace - if you are up with the group in front or within half a hole then you are fulfilling your responsibilities in regards pace of play 
Loosing holes to the group in front is slow play and has a detrimental effect on the whole field
		
Click to expand...

Hey Phil. Have you ever thought of going on "Mastermind?"
Specialist subject..... "The bleeding obvious"


----------



## delc (Aug 22, 2015)

3565 said:



			Tbh, the pro game has got a loooooonnngggggg way to catch up with the amateur game on speed of play. Yes they are playing for gazzzillions of dosh but they hit the ball better then us, play shots better then us, sink more longer putts then us, but watching them on the greens stalking their 15ft putt from all sides then they mentally prepare, stand, take a few practise strokes, then go and hit it, a regular amateur 3 ball would of played their putts in the time it takes them to hit one!!!
grant you, they play courses that are considerably longer then we do, but they hit the 300+ drives not us!!! 

its the norm now, your not going to get the rounds reduced by any significant timescale as there are any amount of different playing levels, fitness levels, disabilities, in the amateur game, but not within the pro ranks. They are all at a 'similar' level yet the governing bodies don't do anything to speed them up to get THEM to the timescales that on an 'average' we amateurs play to.
		
Click to expand...

Well even at the amateur level something has caused rounds of golf to take much longer than they did 50 years ago. At least most amateurs do not have a caddie with whom it seems necessary to have a 2 minute discussion before even the simplest of shots, but many of the younger generation of golfers seem to copy many of the mannerisms and pre-shot routines of the pros. It is noticeable at my club that rounds during the week, when the course is mostly occupied by retired seniors such as myself, rarely take more than 4 hours, but when the younger weekend warriors come out they become more like 5 hours.


----------



## Fish (Aug 22, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Hey Phil. Have you ever thought of going on "Mastermind?"
Specialist subject..... "The bleeding obvious"


Click to expand...

Is it though, what if your in a 4-ball following a 3-ball, how do you judge that, what if your following some single figure more accomplished golfers who aren't looking for the odd ball and are pulling away but the course behind and more importantly the group behind isn't pushing you or waiting!

For me it is what it is, if a group behind is waiting, we'll always let them through, if their not waiting I'm going to enjoy my game and company irrelevant if the group pull away in front or not, if I try to rush myself to keep up when I'm not under pressure to do so from behind it will only have a detrimental effect on my game, when that day comes I'll sell everything.

I've played in loads of meets up and down the country with a wide range of handicaps and I don't think I've ever played in any of them well under 4hrs, and that's being in some very good 3 and 4-balls with all very low single figure handicaps, so, some of the stuff I'm reading on here is pure junk IMO, I think some serious management of expectations need addressing.


----------



## alexbrownmp (Aug 22, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Hey Phil. Have you ever thought of going on "Mastermind?"
Specialist subject..... "The bleeding obvious"


Click to expand...


isnt the whole thread this?

common sense should prevail without the need for free pints, penalties if you clock in to the pro 10 seconds longer. 

if you are in the way, and space in front, MOVE or MOVE OVER!


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The field should dictate the pace - if you are up with the group in front or within half a hole then you are fulfilling your responsibilities in regards pace of play
		
Click to expand...

Half a hole behind (physically)  is actually t least 'up with the group in front'! Any closer and you have made up ground on them and are quite possibly going to have to wait for them to clear the green - irrespective of whether they are fast, slow or playing at 'standard' pace!



Liverpoolphil said:



			Loosing holes to the group in front is slow play and has a detrimental effect on the whole field
		
Click to expand...

Only the field behind - and then only if they are being held up! So if there are known slow players, put them in groups at the rear of the field - if they haven't done that themselves, as I know several 'traditionally slow' (through age, infirmity or lack of skill) groups do. Likewise, endeavor to put traditionally quick groups out early, both for their own sake and in order to 'drag' the rest of the field up to a better speed.


----------



## chellie (Aug 22, 2015)

Round today where a lot of the time was spent checking watches and looking behind to see how close the ones behind were. Can't say it was a good experience.


----------



## Robobum (Aug 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The field should dictate the pace - if you are up with the group in front or within half a hole then you are fulfilling your responsibilities in regards pace of play 

Loosing holes to the group in front is slow play and has a detrimental effect on the whole field
		
Click to expand...

That's wrong Phil.

The 1st group out in almost every medal we have gets round in about 2:45. I go in the 2nd group quite often and will finish a clear 2 holes behind them  in 3:10 - so, by your reckoning, that is too slow and has a detrimental effect on the field!?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 22, 2015)

Robobum said:



			That's wrong Phil.

The 1st group out in almost every medal we have gets round in about 2:45. I go in the 2nd group quite often and will finish a clear 2 holes behind them  in 3:10 - so, by your reckoning, that is too slow and has a detrimental effect on the field!?
		
Click to expand...

My comment was a bit too generic and obviously doesn't tackle every day on the course as we also go out very early behind a group of buggies and can't keep up 

Obviously if loosing ground on the group in front and holding up the group behind will have an effect on the rest of the field 

But if you have a clear gap behind you then it's at the pace you feel comfortable with 

It's very hard to nail down to certainties I guess and will always depend on in front and behind your group


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 22, 2015)

chellie said:



			Round today where a lot of the time was spent checking watches and looking behind to see how close the ones behind were. Can't say it was a good experience.
		
Click to expand...

Captains Day to day. Shotgun start at 8.00 and took for and a half hours. We seemed to lose a hole early on although we spent ages looking for three balls on one hole. However we never even saw the group behind. Did we play too slow? Did we affect the flow of the course. Clearly not as most groups all seemed to be finishing exactly the same time and we were stopping at several points for refreshments and captains day challenges. A fun day and so no-one felt preoccupied by time but way over a standard four hour round for our place although given the stops etc only to be expected. If that pace of play happened next weekend in a stableford there would be huge gnashing of teeth. 

At the end of the day we all play golf for fun. No-one likes slow play but if your group is in a flow, and everyone ahead are moving and you don't have an express group behind trying to set a course record of fast play, surely focusing on your own game, enjoying the experience and trying to score well and get a cut is more important than constant clock watching and fretting that this week may take seven and a half minutes more than last week


----------



## delc (Aug 22, 2015)

chellie said:



			Round today where a lot of the time was spent checking watches and looking behind to see how close the ones behind were. Can't say it was a good experience.
		
Click to expand...

There is really no need to rush to get round a golf course in a reasonable time. Just walk briskly between shots and don't faff about like the tour pros when playing your shots. Small things like leaving your clubs in the right place and marking cards on the next tee rather than on the green all help.


----------



## chellie (Aug 22, 2015)

delc said:



			There is really no need to rush to get round a golf course in a reasonable time. Just walk briskly between shots and don't faff about like the tour pros when playing your shots. Small things like leaving your clubs in the right place and marking cards on the next tee rather than on the green all help.  

Click to expand...

I already do all of that. 
I don't take practice swings. 
I don't line up balls for putts. 
I read my line whilst my FC or PP is taking their putt. 
I'm always stood ready to take my next shot with the club out.
 I don't mark my card just as I'm off the green. 
Bag is always on the correct side of the green to get to the next tee.
 I walk quickly and was walking ahead of my FC most of the time today. 
I had to take two provisionals today but my first were found quickly on both occasions. 
Oh, and I had to don waterproofs when the heavens opened and then take them off when it stopped and it was sweltering. 


Quite frankly after these two rounds I am sick to death of the anti slow play pressure that was piled onto us.


----------



## Slime (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm currently watching the US Amateur Championship semi-finals.
The commentators are not happy!
One group has been told to get a move on ..................... four times!
Not once have they been put 'on the clock'.
The commentators have said that "the pace of play absolutely stinks, and until they're actually put on the clock, it will continue to do so. The USPGA MUST do something about this".
A damning indictment, indeed.

*Slime*.


----------



## delc (Aug 23, 2015)

Slime said:



			I'm currently watching the US Amateur Championship semi-finals.
The commentators are not happy!
One group has been told to get a move on ..................... four times!
Not once have they been put 'on the clock'.
The commentators have said that "the pace of play absolutely stinks, and until they're actually put on the clock, it will continue to do so. The USPGA MUST do something about this".
A damning indictment, indeed.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

There really should be a target maximum time for playing a round of golf, after which penalty strokes are applied. If players, especially tour pros and elite amateurs, are allowed to take as much time as they want over every shot, they will do so. I never notice tour pros calling a following group through when a ruling is required, so that slows down play even more!


----------



## 3565 (Aug 23, 2015)

chellie said:



			I already do all of that. 
I don't take practice swings. 
I don't line up balls for putts. 
I read my line whilst my FC or PP is taking their putt. 
I'm always stood ready to take my next shot with the club out.
 I don't mark my card just as I'm off the green. 
Bag is always on the correct side of the green to get to the next tee.
 I walk quickly and was walking ahead of my FC most of the time today. 
I had to take two provisionals today but my first were found quickly on both occasions. 
Oh, and I had to don waterproofs when the heavens opened and then take them off when it stopped and it was sweltering. 


Quite frankly after these two rounds I am sick to death of the anti slow play pressure that was piled onto us.
		
Click to expand...

Here, here, I'm sick to the back teeth of it too.


----------



## 3565 (Aug 23, 2015)

delc said:



*There really should be a target maximum time for playing a round of golf,* after which penalty strokes are applied. If players, especially tour pros and elite amateurs, are allowed to take as much time as they want over every shot, they will do so. I never notice tour pros calling a following group through when a ruling is required, so that slows down play even more!
		
Click to expand...

For who and what would that time be?


----------



## Robobum (Aug 23, 2015)

3565 said:



			For who and what would that time be?
		
Click to expand...

Would there need to be a sst & a csst?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 23, 2015)

Far too many variables to have set time limits for a round of golf


----------



## duncan mackie (Aug 23, 2015)

chellie said:



			I already do all of that. 
I don't take practice swings. 
I don't line up balls for putts. 
I read my line whilst my FC or PP is taking their putt. 
I'm always stood ready to take my next shot with the club out.
 I don't mark my card just as I'm off the green. 
Bag is always on the correct side of the green to get to the next tee.
 I walk quickly and was walking ahead of my FC most of the time today. 
I had to take two provisionals today but my first were found quickly on both occasions. 
Oh, and I had to don waterproofs when the heavens opened and then take them off when it stopped and it was sweltering. 


Quite frankly after these two rounds I am sick to death of the anti slow play pressure that was piled onto us.
		
Click to expand...

Within the club environment this is the way I feel about all but the most intensive marshaling. This is because it needs intensive marshaling to establish and understand exactly what's really going on.

Everything else simple puts pressure on the innocent golfer (the one that is aware of their position, is already rushing and affected by the consideration for pop and others).

However, I do have huge hopes that by establishing not time based parameters but clear behavioural ones, the work that Mike's team is currently working on will provide a balance to what has, in some places, got out of hand.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Aug 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Far too many variables to have set time limits for a round of golf
		
Click to expand...

Each course will vary, but it is certainly possible to get an average 4ball time for each course, plenty of times I have seen signs saying " you should be here in 2 hours 20 mins" etc
Any group who takes longer is potentially holding up the course and course marshals should ensure that any backed up groups are let through.

Of course that assumes that your course has a course marshal


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 23, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Each course will vary, but it is certainly possible to get an average 4ball time for each course, plenty of times I have seen signs saying " you should be here in 2 hours 20 mins" etc
Any group who takes longer is potentially holding up the course and course marshals should ensure that any backed up groups are let through.

Of course that assumes that your course has a course marshal 

Click to expand...

Again it will be full of variables in regards - competition play , social play , match play , 4BBB - captains day , club champs etc etc - so many different variables 

It always should be judged on the day - if you have lost 2 holes to the group in front and you have the group behind waiting on every shot then you are slow for the pace on that day and need to either pick up your pace or allow the group behind through.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Aug 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again it will be full of variables in regards - competition play , social play , match play , 4BBB - captains day , club champs etc etc - so many different variables 

It always should be judged on the day - if you have lost 2 holes to the group in front and you have the group behind waiting on every shot then you are slow for the pace on that day and need to either pick up your pace or allow the group behind through.
		
Click to expand...

Agree totally except it should be 1 hole lost to the group in front


----------



## chrisd (Aug 23, 2015)

Cut the rough to manageable length, so you can find a ball fairly quickly but still have a tough shot to recover. Don't let tree branches swallow up balls, cut them to a height that a player can swing to get back into play and doesn't have to faff around taking drops. Play a reasonable amount of Stableford comps so that players can pick up - we had a bogey comp today and no one holed out more than a tap in if they were out of the hole. Have no more than a one practice swing policy. Get experienced players to advise newer golfers on ways to speed up, advertise that this will be done and ask people to accept the advice willingly. Have good sineage for the walk from green to next tees. 

Just a few things!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 23, 2015)

Will never see sanitising a golf course as a solution to slow play


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 23, 2015)

delc said:



			There really should be a target maximum time for playing a round of golf, after which penalty strokes are applied. If players, especially tour pros and elite amateurs, are allowed to take as much time as they want over every shot, they will do so. I never notice tour pros calling a following group through when a ruling is required, so that slows down play even more!
		
Click to expand...

How are you going to enforce that, with rulings etc taking forever. How does that filter to club level. Will ruin it for club golfers who play for fun and shouldn't have that tarnished just because a few ruin it by taking too long


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Agree totally except it should be 1 hole lost to the group in front
		
Click to expand...

As long as 'lost 1 hole' is the proper definition, rather than that of the guys who want to get into the bar or away from the course asap!

Remember that you generally start nearly 3/4 to 1 hole behind the group in front anyway, so losing a hole on that group means 1 and 3/4s to 2 holes behind them. Anything between those 2 boundaries is really simply 'out of position' at worst - as is being up their backsides!


----------



## Slab (Aug 24, 2015)

Does anyone know if their course has actually been pace rated?

Not talking about an expected time for a round being posted somewhere but was that round time derived from a proper pace rating for that course?


----------



## delc (Aug 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			Does anyone know if their course has actually been pace rated?

Not talking about an expected time for a round being posted somewhere but was that round time derived from a proper pace rating for that course?
		
Click to expand...

Our course has notices that say you should have reached this hole by such and such a time, but this is rarely/never enforced.  Obviously some courses take longer to walk round than others, particularly if there are some long walks between holes, but it should be possible to come to some sort of pace of play rating.


----------



## delc (Aug 24, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			As long as 'lost 1 hole' is the proper definition, rather than that of the guys who want to get into the bar or away from the course asap!

Remember that you generally start nearly 3/4 to 1 hole behind the group in front anyway, so losing a hole on that group means 1 and 3/4s to 2 holes behind them. Anything between those 2 boundaries is really simply 'out of position' at worst - as is being up their backsides!
		
Click to expand...

There have been occasions when my playing group has lost a clear hole to a particularly fast group ahead, but the following group are nowhere to be seen!  You can hardly call them through in that case, at least not without waiting for a long time!


----------



## Slab (Aug 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Our course has notices that say you should have reached this hole by such and such a time, but this is rarely/never enforced.  Obviously some courses take longer to walk round than others, particularly if there are some long walks between holes, but it should be possible to come to some sort of pace of play rating.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah the USGA have had a pace rating formula for over 20 years and just updated it in 2013 which can be applied to any course. Do you know if how the hole times for your course were decided?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2015)

4hrs 10mins yesterday for 3 ball in a  club 'major' stableford comp - much of the time played in pouring rain.  Given the weather we thought that not too bad.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The field should dictate the pace* - if you are up with the group in front or within half a hole then you are fulfilling your responsibilities in regards pace of play 

Loosing holes to the group in front is slow play and has a detrimental effect on the whole field
		
Click to expand...

which is why the first groups out in the day when tee is likely to be busy or in a comp *must* be brisk and monitored to make sure they get round in the expected time for the format and number in each group.  If the first half doz groups are slow that will easily determine the pace for as long as the tee remains busy


----------



## patricks148 (Aug 24, 2015)

judging by the few minuets of the US am on TV the problem is getting worse. Just seen the winner take around 5 mins for a 4 footer that was straight


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			judging by the few minuets of the US am on TV the problem is getting worse. Just seen the winner take around 5 mins for a 4 footer that was straight
		
Click to expand...

Same with the little bit of the US Junior Amateur Championship I watched a few weeks back.  Excruciatingly slow at times.  Especially on the greens.


----------



## Billbored (Aug 24, 2015)

Playability of courses is a major factor. If the rough is long, or the carry off the tees over thick rough/heather is too far for high handicappers who then have to play provisional balls, clubs cant complain about slow play too much as they have invited it on themselves. I often play with high handicappers who play provisional balls, but in the latest medal we predictably were searching for 4 balls, two from each of my August Medal companions.


----------



## Billbored (Aug 24, 2015)

All brilliant points chrisd


----------



## North Mimms (Aug 25, 2015)

I've been following this thread with interest but not got round to posting as phone is acting up.

I can't find her post, but I am like Fairway Dodger - pretty quick tee to green, but i like to spend my time on putts.
This can be a problem when I am playing with someone who is the opposite.

I don't take any practice swings on full shots, just a swish for short variable chips.
I have a strict set up routine but it's simple and quick.

But  I am Satan's golfer in that I use an alignment line on my ball when putting. Yes, even for "ridiculous" two foot putts - mainly as they are the ones I can miss!
But I will have done most of the reading of line before it's my turn to putt. I tend to look at the line from a fair way behind the ball, so can do this without getting in the way of others.

At my Club we play qualifiers in 2 balls, with a field of 60+ players.
You are expected to get round in 3 hr 10 minutes if you want to play early.
Tee times are zoned into three slots- if you can't keep pace in Slot 1, you are "demoted" to slot 2 etc.

It actually means that even the tail enders have a chance of getting round in less than 4 hours.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			I've been following this thread with interest but not got round to posting as phone is acting up.

I can't find her post, but I am like Fairway Dodger - pretty quick tee to green, but i like to spend my time on putts.
This can be a problem when I am playing with someone who is the opposite.

I don't take any practice swings on full shots, just a swish for short variable chips.
I have a strict set up routine but it's simple and quick.

But  I am Satan's golfer in that I use an alignment line on my ball when putting. Yes, even for "ridiculous" two foot putts - mainly as they are the ones I can miss!
But I will have done most of the reading of line before it's my turn to putt. I tend to look at the line from a fair way behind the ball, so can do this without getting in the way of others.

*At my Club we play qualifiers in 2 balls, with a field of 60+ players.
You are expected to get round in 3 hr 10 minutes if you want to play early.
Tee times are zoned into three slots- if you can't keep pace in Slot 1, you are "demoted" to slot 2 etc.*

It actually means that even the tail enders have a chance of getting round in less than 4 hours.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting - first time I have heard of *this * in practice

And also as you say/admit - you are relatively slow(er) on putting but feel you make up for it elsewhere.  The problem as you rightly say happens when your PP is fast on the green and slow elsewhere.  Your round is determined by the slowest player in each phase/aspect of the game.  You might walk briskly from the tee as soon as all have played - but if one of your group does not - and he is to play first then it doesn't matter how fast *you *walk - you have to wait for him.

But you are aware of your pace on the green - and hence would be able to pick it up a bit if necessary.  Self-awareness and doing your own little bit are key to speeding up rounds IMO


----------



## duncan mackie (Aug 25, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			judging by the few minuets of the US am on TV the problem is getting worse. Just seen the winner take around 5 mins for a 4 footer that was straight
		
Click to expand...

I also picked up the highlight show and was, bluntly, horrified.

It's not entertaining, it's way beyond excessive and it sends a huge message to those aspiring to be elite golfers who watch. "If I spend enough time on it I will get it right..."

To be honest I didn't watch that much as it was so painful and switched over to a repeated episode of a fishing program about barbel...


----------



## patricks148 (Aug 25, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			I also picked up the highlight show and was, bluntly, horrified.

It's not entertaining, it's way beyond excessive and it sends a huge message to those aspiring to be elite golfers who watch. "If I spend enough time on it I will get it right..."

To be honest I didn't watch that much as it was so painful and switched over to a repeated episode of a fishing program about barbel...
		
Click to expand...

Same here, but replace a program about Barbel with Laurel and Hardy "picking the back roads of America, for rusty gold"

The guy was 8 up with a 4 footer and spent what seamed like an age on what was a simple putt... he had a strange routine.... not sure if this was "Aim point " or not?


----------



## Region3 (Aug 25, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			I also picked up the highlight show and was, bluntly, horrified.

It's not entertaining, it's way beyond excessive and it sends a huge message to those aspiring to be elite golfers who watch. "If I spend enough time on it I will get it right..."

To be honest I didn't watch that much as it was so painful and switched over to a repeated episode of a fishing program about barbel...
		
Click to expand...




patricks148 said:



			Same here, but replace a program about Barbel with Laurel and Hardy "picking the back roads of America, for rusty gold"

The guy was 8 up with a 4 footer and spent what seamed like an age on what was a simple putt... he had a strange routine.... not sure if this was "Aim point " or not?
		
Click to expand...

I watched this too, and it wouldn't surprise me if crouching over his ball holding his putter above it to get the alignment line straight is actually quicker than keep stepping away/readjusting etc, but looks worse as he's not moving.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			judging by the few *minuets *of the US am on TV the problem is getting worse. Just seen the winner take around 5 mins for a 4 footer that was straight
		
Click to expand...

An appropriate typo - some players do seem to engage in a preposterous and lengthy 'dance' around their putting.


----------



## craigstardis1976 (Aug 25, 2015)

Here in the USA, one of the main problems I see is virtually no-one plays Matchplay in actual games. They are all concerned with strokeplay and total score. Even if you suggest a match, most of the time they do not know the rules and when they do they still want to putt out anyway to record their actual hole score. Bloody pointless, if you ask me...

The best way to speed up play is to develop a club culture where ready golf is the de facto way to play, all the time, on busy days ensure pin positions are accessible and have rangers who have the power and support needed to remove slow players from the course.


----------



## patricks148 (Aug 25, 2015)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Here in the USA, one of the main problems I see is virtually no-one plays Matchplay in actual games. They are all concerned with strokeplay and total score. Even if you suggest a match, most of the time they do not know the rules and when they do they still want to putt out anyway to record their actual hole score. Bloody pointless, if you ask me...

The best way to speed up play is to develop a club culture where ready golf is the de facto way to play, all the time, on busy days ensure pin positions are accessible and have rangers who have the power and support needed to remove slow players from the course.
		
Click to expand...

totally agree with you... all my social golf is match play (better ball) or skins and ready golf most of the time, hence we get round our course in 3 hours as a 4 ball


----------



## SAPCOR1 (Aug 25, 2015)

Haven't read all 26 pages, just a few comments, so apologies if any of the below have been mentioned before.

If busy then the first few groups can be the make or break the whole day

Person closest to their ball takes their shot instead of furthest away from the hole, whether on fairway, rough or green

Always be ready to play your next shot with club selection, glove, tee ready etc

Check the line of your putt as you walk up to your ball

Keep your bag/trolley on the exit side of the green

Mark your card after leaving the green

First person to hole out gets the flag ready 

Be aware of your/your groups position of the course, who's in front and who's ahead

Let others play through where possible 

All basic stuff really


----------



## North Mimms (Aug 25, 2015)

I think Duncan said something about behaviour being more important than actual time.

I totally agree with this. I don't wear a watch when playing golf  and my impression of whether a round was "slow" or "fast" is often determined by other's behaviour, usually the group in front but somtimes my FC.
What makes a round seem slow is people not being ready, faffing about and not actually playing golf.

I have become more tolerant of others taking practice swings these days as they are actually doing something in readiness for their shot. What I hate to see is the 4 ball ahead of me (that are holding me up) all standing by the next tee, marking their cards, having a chat, offering round the fags etc and no-one is actually on the tee swinging a club!


----------



## SammmeBee (Aug 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Captains Day to day. Shotgun start at 8.00 and took for and a half hours. We seemed to lose a hole early on although we spent ages looking for three balls on one hole. However we never even saw the group behind. Did we play too slow? Did we affect the flow of the course. Clearly not as most groups all seemed to be finishing exactly the same time and we were stopping at several points for refreshments and captains day challenges. A fun day and so no-one felt preoccupied by time but way over a standard four hour round for our place although given the stops etc only to be expected. If that pace of play happened next weekend in a stableford there would be huge gnashing of teeth. 

At the end of the day we all play golf for fun. No-one likes slow play but if your group is in a flow, and everyone ahead are moving and you don't have an express group behind trying to set a course record of fast play, surely focusing on your own game, enjoying the experience and trying to score well and get a cut is more important than constant clock watching and fretting that this week may take seven and a half minutes more than last week
		
Click to expand...

How many teams and what hole did you start on?  If a par 5 was behind you then why would you ever see them if you were playing at a sensible pace?


----------

