# WHS Score recording system



## Wildboy370 (Aug 25, 2020)

A subject that has been discussed many times so apologies if this has been covered before.
I am on the organising committee for the WHS at my club. One thing we cannot get answers from England Golf about is what system will be used to log scores and how these will be entered etc.
We have been told there is and App from them, but can’t find it anywhere, we use a terminal,  but not been told what terminal and what operating systems, do we swipe or log in, do we need more than one terminal. Also how will any system know you are playing a friendly round on the same day that a competition is being played as all scores for the 24 hour period affect the daily handicap adjustment due to course conditions etc.
Also if we go abroad and enter a score how does this link to the handicap system we are using here in the UK? As I understand there are numerous systems up and down the country we currently use to log scores and all are somehow linked, as when you play away your handicap is adjusted via the one you use locally, so will the world systems be linked somehow also.
Basically we have the usual very little help from our governing body, and with only two months before this becomes live we want to a presentation to members giving details of how this all works.
Any help advice and places to look will be gratefully accepted.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 26, 2020)

Let's try to unpack this.

Your club is presumably using software currently to enter scores and manage handicaps. This will normally be provided by a third party software vendor (often referred to as an ISV). This software links to the CDH systems run by England Golf. There will be WHS compliant versions of these systems for WHS go-live and so your club will presumably update their existing software to retain this functionality. Each club is required to have at least 2 touch screen terminals to allow players to enter competitions / scores etc. You would normally access your competitions to sign-in via a swipe card or index menu. The software to run this will be determined by the software the club choose. This is no different to how things are now in most cases.

Several of these vendors also offer an application which will run on a mobile phone or a PC/tablet. For example we use Club2000 V1 as our base software and they provide HowDidIDo as their members interface. This will allow members to sign-in and enter scores in competitions as will as registering aa acceptable round and enter the score after playing.

Only acceptable rounds impact handicaps and whilst it's anticipated all singles competitions will be designated as such you will have a choice to designate a round as one to count for handicap in a similar way to the way you do it for supplementary scores. Again it's anticipated this will be done on-line or through a smartphone / PC application. All acceptable scores from both members and visitors will be used in the calculation of PCC (there are some caveats).

As far as scores from abroad are concerned the answer is yes they will be integrated - but not yet! The integration will happen post WHS implementation and will use your CDH number as the key to ensuring scores are added to your playing record.

As far as away scores within CONGU are concerned the scores will come back to you home club in the usual way and your handicap committee will have to accept them (or not) as at present. Remember the scores will need to be entered at the course you played on the day you played using their screen or your smartphone / PC app so no physical cards need to be returned. This will work regardless of the software the club uses vs your home club (as now).

Hope this helps and to be fair to England Golf there is lots (and lots) of information available and there have been many briefing held to club officials over the last 12 months. I appreciate it's difficult at present but hopefully things will ease as we approach November 2nd.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Let's try to unpack this.

Your club is presumably using software currently to enter scores and manage handicaps. This will normally be provided by a third party software vendor (often referred to as an ISV). This software links to the CDH systems run by England Golf. There will be WHS compliant versions of these systems for WHS go-live and so your club will presumably update their existing software to retain this functionality. Each club is required to have at least 2 touch screen terminals to allow players to enter competitions / scores etc. You would normally access your competitions to sign-in via a swipe card or index menu. The software to run this will be determined by the software the club choose. This is no different to how things are now in most cases.

Several of these vendors also offer an application which will run on a mobile phone or a PC/tablet. For example we use Club2000 V1 as our base software and they provide HowDidIDo as their members interface. This will allow members to sign-in and enter scores in competitions as will as registering aa acceptable round and enter the score after playing.

Only acceptable rounds impact handicaps and whilst it's anticipated all singles competitions will be designated as such you will have a choice to designate a round as one to count for handicap in a similar way to the way you do it for supplementary scores. Again it's anticipated this will be done on-line or through a smartphone / PC application. All acceptable scores from both members and visitors will be used in the calculation of PCC (there are some caveats).

As far as scores from abroad are concerned the answer is yes they will be integrated - but not yet! The integration will happen post WHS implementation and will use your CDH number as the key to ensuring scores are added to your playing record.

As far as away scores within CONGU are concerned the scores will come back to you home club in the usual way and your handicap committee will have to accept them (or not) as at present. Remember the scores will need to be entered at the course you played on the day you played using their screen or your smartphone / PC app so no physical cards need to be returned. This will work regardless of the software the club uses vs your home club (as now).

Hope this helps and to be fair to England Golf there is lots (and lots) of information available and there have been many briefing held to club officials over the last 12 months. I appreciate it's difficult at present but hopefully things will ease as we approach November 2nd.
		
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interesting - remind me - what's PCC?  The rest I understand


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## Swango1980 (Aug 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			interesting - remind me - what's PCC?  The rest I understand

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Playing Conditions Calculation (a bit like the CSS at present). It will be based on all scores entered that day, with the aim of being able to account for playing conditions on that day (i.e. weather, course setup)


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## jim8flog (Aug 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			interesting - remind me - what's PCC?  The rest I understand

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 AS per swango plus there needs to a least 8 scores returned on the day for one to be calculated.

If all players on the day fail to get their scores on to the computer for some reason there will be a another PCC for the day they do. So different players in the same competition could end up with a different basis for the handicap adjustment calculation.  Also if there is a significant deterioration in course conditions during  the day, say due to weather, there needs to be 2 PCCs calculated.


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## jim8flog (Aug 26, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Also how will any system know you are playing a friendly round on the same day that a competition is being played as all scores for the 24 hour period affect the daily handicap adjustment due to course conditions etc.
.
		
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 Assuming by friendly you mean a round preregistered for handicap purposes (see MJCs post paragraph 4)

The sytem does not know.  All scores submitted on the day are included in the PCC.


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## rulefan (Aug 26, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			If all players on the day fail to get their scores on to the computer for some reason there will be a another PCC for the day they do.
		
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I'm not sure about this. See Interpretations 5.6 Note 3


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## jim8flog (Aug 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm not sure about this. See Interpretations 5.6 Note 3
		
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Are you quoting the wrong bit of my post?

Are you referring to my quote about separate PCCs in one day

 I was going by 5.6/2 first dot point specifically re the weather.


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## rulefan (Aug 26, 2020)

5.6/1 Note 3


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			5.6/1 Note 3
		
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I could see the circumstances where you may want to calculate a separate PCC if you have an elite event taking place on a course where you also have others playing an acceptable round. However, I can't see the point in having multiple PCCs during a day because the weather closes in - surely that's just the luck of the draw? Who would make the call on this and how would you determin the time used to split the players? Sign-in time, score entry time, ...?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I could see the circumstances where you may want to calculate a separate PCC if you have an elite event taking place on a course where you also have others playing an acceptable round. However, I can't see the point in having multiple PCCs during a day because the weather closes in - surely that's just the luck of the draw? Who would make the call on this and how would you determin the time used to split the players? Sign-in time, score entry time, ...?
		
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It's a fair point. I wonder if they implemented it simply because in the UK, weather can change so drastically from morning to late afternoon, and therefore it was reasonable to do. After all, most competitions currently are played within 2-3 hours from 1st to last group, so yes, luck of the draw will play a part to some extent. Whereas, an argument for a separate PCC might be made it, say it rained all morning, early afternoon when a competition went out, but cleared up at lunch, and then weather was fine for those who went out after work.

But, it is a good question, that even if it is appropriate, how is it determined. Is it automatically done by looking at the scores that come in? Does it have to be flagged manually? If it is done in sign in time, what if a player forgets to sign in (many still do at our place when playing a competition). If it is done by score entry time, what if someone played in the morning, but didn't enter score until later that night.

Is this just another thing that makes WHS a little more complicated in the fact that more importance is placed on a player signing in, or when they submit/enter their score, compared to now, where I receive  supplementary cards anything from immediately after the round (via e-mail) to a week after the round.


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## rulefan (Aug 27, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Is this just another thing that makes WHS a little more complicated in the fact that more importance is placed on a player signing in, or when they submit/enter their score, compared to now, where I receive  supplementary cards anything from immediately after the round (via e-mail) to a week after the round.
		
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I suspect you will far less of this as more players get into the use of an app for dynamic scoring. NB I didn't say all.


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## jim8flog (Aug 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			5.6/1 Note 3
		
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 Do you have a different book to the one that is downloaded

5.6/1 3  in  the downloaded version

3. Establish how many players scored better or worse than expected on the
day.


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## rulefan (Aug 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Do you have a different book to the one that is downloaded

5.6/1 3  in  the downloaded version

3. Establish how many players scored better or worse than expected on the
day.
		
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Read further down to the "Notes:" on page 56 (before 5.6/2)


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## jim8flog (Aug 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Read further down to the "Notes:" on page 56 (before 5.6/2)
		
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There is no 'Notes' in the downloaded section

I cannot read anything in in 5.6 that contradicts what is said in 5.6/2


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## rulefan (Aug 28, 2020)

From Page 55





From Page 56


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 28, 2020)

Sorry to be dull but what publication are these taken from?


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## rulefan (Aug 28, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Sorry to be dull but what publication are these taken from?
		
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The CONGU/England Golf version of the WHS 'Rules of Handicapping'


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks.


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## Old Skier (Aug 29, 2020)

As it’s an automatic process if a delayed card from the day/days before is entered, I presume the PCC will be taken into account.


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## rulefan (Aug 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			As it’s an automatic process if a delayed card from the day/days before is entered, I presume the PCC will be taken into account.
		
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My understanding is that the PCC will be applied to the late scores but the PCC will not be recalculated for the original scores


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## jim8flog (Aug 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			From Page 55

View attachment 32182



From Page 56

View attachment 32181

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I am querying if you have forgotten what this was all about.

Ie. The possible need to have two PCCs for one day 

as per 5.6/2


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## rulefan (Aug 29, 2020)

If all players on the day fail to get their scores on to the computer for some reason there will be a another PCC for the day they do. So different players in the same competition could end up with a different basis for the handicap adjustment calculation.

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It was this statement of yours that I was querying. I can't find anywhere this is stated.


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## rosecott (Aug 31, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Let's try to unpack this.

Your club is presumably using software currently to enter scores and manage handicaps. This will normally be provided by a third party software vendor (often referred to as an ISV). This software links to the CDH systems run by England Golf. There will be WHS compliant versions of these systems for WHS go-live and so your club will presumably update their existing software to retain this functionality.* Each club is required to have at least 2 touch screen terminals to allow players to enter competitions / scores etc*. You would normally access your competitions to sign-in via a swipe card or index menu. The software to run this will be determined by the software the club choose. This is no different to how things are now in most cases.

Several of these vendors also offer an application which will run on a mobile phone or a PC/tablet. For example we use Club2000 V1 as our base software and they provide HowDidIDo as their members interface. This will allow members to sign-in and enter scores in competitions as will as registering aa acceptable round and enter the score after playing.

Only acceptable rounds impact handicaps and whilst it's anticipated all singles competitions will be designated as such you will have a choice to designate a round as one to count for handicap in a similar way to the way you do it for supplementary scores. Again it's anticipated this will be done on-line or through a smartphone / PC application. All acceptable scores from both members and visitors will be used in the calculation of PCC (there are some caveats).

As far as scores from abroad are concerned the answer is yes they will be integrated - but not yet! The integration will happen post WHS implementation and will use your CDH number as the key to ensuring scores are added to your playing record.

As far as away scores within CONGU are concerned the scores will come back to you home club in the usual way and your handicap committee will have to accept them (or not) as at present. Remember the scores will need to be entered at the course you played on the day you played using their screen or your smartphone / PC app so no physical cards need to be returned. This will work regardless of the software the club uses vs your home club (as now).

Hope this helps and to be fair to England Golf there is lots (and lots) of information available and there have been many briefing held to club officials over the last 12 months. I appreciate it's difficult at present but hopefully things will ease as we approach November 2nd.
		
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I have been searching in vain to find where it is laid down that there is a requirement for at least 2 touch screen terminals. Can you point me in the right direction?


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I have been searching in vain to find where it is laid down that there is a requirement for at least 2 touch screen terminals. Can you point me in the right direction?
		
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That one threw me as I can’t see why apart from ease this would be necessary


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 31, 2020)

From memory it was part of the original England Golf briefings to clubs which said at least 2 should be available to members and visitors. It was certainly in the notes I took in November 2019 so it may have been in answer to a question but I destinctly remember a discussion of the availability of some grants available to clubs to get the base technology (screens) implemented.

In the FAQs the following was included:

*As a club, do we need any special equipment or hardware for WHS?*

*Clubs must employ a system which allows golfers to register before play and return scores. Ideally, this should be via an online system. Conversion tables to allow a handicap index to be translated into a course handicap must be available in a prominent place.*

Maybe it has translated to a recommendation?


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			From memory it was part of the original England Golf briefings to clubs which said at least 2 should be available to members and visitors. It was certainly in the notes I took in November 2019 so it may have been in answer to a question but I destinctly remember a discussion of the availability of some grants available to clubs to get the base technology (screens) implemented.
		
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There was possibly still is vouchers available discounting prices. Not sure if that was Club Systems initiative for their customers though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 31, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			From memory it was part of the original England Golf briefings to clubs which said at least 2 should be available to members and visitors. It was certainly in the notes I took in November 2019 so it may have been in answer to a question but I destinctly remember a discussion of the availability of some grants available to clubs to get the base technology (screens) implemented.

In the FAQs the following was included:

*As a club, do we need any special equipment or hardware for WHS?*

*Clubs must employ a system which allows golfers to register before play and return scores. Ideally, this should be via an online system. Conversion tables to allow a handicap index to be translated into a course handicap must be available in a prominent place.*

Maybe it has translated to a recommendation?
		
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As I posted in other whs thread - does the opposite of requiring an online system for whs hold true? That is.  If you use one to record scores then that Automatically make the score a qualifying score.


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## rulefan (Aug 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There was possibly still is vouchers available discounting prices. Not sure if that was Club Systems initiative for their customers though.
		
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Yes, I'm pretty sure it was Club Systems incentive


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I posted in other whs thread - does the opposite of requiring an online system for whs hold true? That is.  If you use one to record scores then that Automatically make the score a qualifying score.
		
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Answered on other thread...


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## jim8flog (Sep 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It was this statement of yours that I was querying. I can't find anywhere this is stated.
		
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I thought it would be reasonably obvious. The PCC for the day is calculated for the day based upon all scores that have been uploaded by midnight. So if one group of players has got their scores on the computer by then and the other has not each group will end up with a different PCC calculation.

This is what was advised at the workshop.


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## rulefan (Sep 1, 2020)

The PCC will be applied to that days returned scores. The same PCC will be applied to the late returns. However, the late returns will not cause the original PCC to be recalculated.

That's what the note to 5.6/1 says and how it was explained to me.


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## OldMate (Jul 27, 2021)

Apologies in advance for raising this again as I know it’s been discussed in the past and on various threads - does anyone know if there is any update on how/whether overseas scores are to be submitted? I will be abroad in Australia for a couple of months soon for family reasons and on past trips there I’ve sometimes entered the occasional competition (the clubs I’ve played at have allowed me to use my EG handicap index). I had assumed (at least morally) that I should be submitting these scores for handicap purposes (where they are individual strokeplay events played to the rules of golf on a measured course with slope rating etc) in relation to my EG index although the EG guidance seems to say it’s more up to the player in terms of whether to submit them as a general play rounds rather than it being a requirement and either way it doesn’t appear there is the functionality to do this in any event. Thanks


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## nickjdavis (Jul 27, 2021)

OldMate said:



			Apologies in advance for raising this again as I know it’s been discussed in the past and on various threads - does anyone know if there is any update on how/whether overseas scores are to be submitted? I will be abroad in Australia for a couple of months soon for family reasons and on past trips there I’ve sometimes entered the occasional competition (the clubs I’ve played at have allowed me to use my EG handicap index). I had assumed (at least morally) that I should be submitting these scores for handicap purposes (where they are individual strokeplay events played to the rules of golf on a measured course with slope rating etc) in relation to my EG index although the EG guidance seems to say it’s more up to the player in terms of whether to submit them as a general play rounds rather than it being a requirement and either way it doesn’t appear there is the functionality to do this in any event. Thanks
		
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Sadly at the moment the only way you can do it is to manually return them to your own club.

I've just played an open in Scotland and had to manually return my cards to my club each night (4 rounds).


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## OldMate (Jul 29, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Sadly at the moment the only way you can do it is to manually return them to your own club.

I've just played an open in Scotland and had to manually return my cards to my club each night (4 rounds).
		
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Thanks Nick. I guess if the card clearly shows the slope/CR etc that’s enough for my home club to work with as I assume the system doesn’t yet have details of every course in the world logged yet…


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## rulefan (Jul 29, 2021)

OldMate said:



			Thanks Nick. I guess if the card clearly shows the slope/CR etc that’s enough for my home club to work with as I assume the system doesn’t yet have details of every course in the world logged yet…
		
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"The system" is currently a series of disjointed systems. However the USGA or R&A Course Rating databases have worldwide course ratings 
https://ncrdb.usga.org/
https://www.randa.org/worldhandicapsystem/Lookup


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## nickjdavis (Jul 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			"The system" is currently a series of disjointed systems. However the USGA or R&A Course Rating databases have worldwide course ratings
https://ncrdb.usga.org/
https://www.randa.org/worldhandicapsystem/Lookup

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The course ratings may be in the USGA and R&A databases but the courses still need to be set up in the relevant handicapping authorities database for you to be able to return a score for that course.

I had to set up the courses I played at myself in the England Golf/Dot Golf system before I travelled. The problems are that...

1) there is no instruction as to how to do this
2) there is no oversight to this process and anyone with access to the DotGolf system can add a course and put in CR and Slope details without it being checked by anyone else. There seemingly is no function by which you can delete a course that is obviously wrong.

What this results in is different people trying to add courses and you potentially end up with several entries for a course without knowing which is really valid.


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## rulefan (Jul 30, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			2)  anyone with access to the DotGolf system can add a course and put in CR and Slope details without it being checked by anyone else.
		
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How many ordinary players have access to this facility I wonder?


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## wjemather (Jul 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			How many ordinary players have access to this facility I wonder?
		
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Not many. However, there are far too many people who do have access having only been provided with EG's hopelessly inadequate documentation/guides (if they have even seen them) and zero training. As a result they have (and will continue to) input incorrect and duplicate information - ranging from basic typos to wildly inaccurate ratings.


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## rulefan (Jul 30, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Not many. However, there are far too many people who do have access having only been provided with EG's hopelessly inadequate documentation/guides (if they have even seen them) and zero training. As a result they have (and will continue to) input incorrect and duplicate information - ranging from basic typos to wildly inaccurate ratings.
		
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I agree. I have access as a player, h'cap committee and county adviser. I have had absolutely no guidance. I haven't dared experimenting to see what I can do in the different guises.


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## nickjdavis (Jul 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			How many ordinary players have access to this facility I wonder?
		
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oh absolutely...I'd say virtually zero golfers who are not part of the committee or handicapping admin at club level....and I guess that only a small percentage of those that do serve and have access are even aware of the possibility to create "foreign" course information in the DotGolf system.

I only started researching it because I didn't know if the comp I was playing in required adjustments to handicap after each days play, and potentially needed a means by which I could get my scores into my record and get my index adjusted.


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