# Down to 7 in two years?



## Mattie (Dec 15, 2009)

Hi All

Ive been playing 5 months now, probably at the range 3 or 4 times a week, not much actual Golf at the moment and a lesson every 6 weeks.

I would say I have some good natural ability coming from a tennis background but I would like to get down to a handicap of 14 by end of next summer and 7 (maybe 10) the summer after that.

Does anyone think that is attainable in the timeframe 

Thanks
Mattie


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## colint (Dec 15, 2009)

It's definitely possible depending on how much natural ability you have, sounds like you're putting in enough work, try and make sure you spend time working on your short game as you can shave plenty of strokes around the green. The range is great for working in the winter but nothing beats actually playing on the course to improve imho.

There are a few forum members who live around Chester / Wirral so if you ever fancy a game shout up.


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## Doh (Dec 15, 2009)

Mattie what are you playing off at the moment? The lower you get the harder it is, from 14 to 7 is a massive jump but not impossible.

Like Colin says you need to spend more time on the course playing in comps and practicing.

Good luck.


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## bernix (Dec 15, 2009)

it is defintly doable. if you come from a tennis background, I know plenty of golfers who do, you will be a decent ballstriker but you have to invest some time developping a good putting stroke.


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## Robobum (Dec 15, 2009)

If you were half decent at tennis I'd say that the hand eye coordination will put you in good shape to pick up golf fairly quickly and your goal will be possible.

My advice to you would be to avoid getting bogged down entirely with technique and practice on the range. Golf is purely a scoring game, no points for style or technique, you've just got to get the ball in the hole in the fewest shots possible. Hitting the greatest shots on the range will mean nothing if you can't bring them onto the course.

Learning to get round the course is a skill that is overlooked by most high handicappers. Try to play with some of the better players at your club or the wily old codgers who can still chip it round in the mid 70s. Ask about how they play certain holes and how they try to avoid the big numbers.

If you are getting lessons, use some of them for a playing lesson where the pro can give you pointers on how to manage your way round the course as well.

Most of all you've got to enjoy it. Good Luck.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2009)

I'd like to be associated with the remarks of the last speaker


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## pokerjoke (Dec 15, 2009)

Definately possible,the key for me is chipping and putting,practice leaving chips stone dead.Also being aware of how far you hit each club is crucial,it helps with course management.I have been playing 13mths and my handicap is 12,i know i will be single figures next year,good luck.


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## RGDave (Dec 15, 2009)

Hi All

Ive been playing 5 months now, probably at the range 3 or 4 times a week, not much actual Golf at the moment and a lesson every 6 weeks.

I would say I have some good natural ability coming from a tennis background but I would like to get down to a handicap of 14 by end of next summer and 7 (maybe 10) the summer after that.

Does anyone think that is attainable in the timeframe 

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Yes. Forget the assumption that it's guaranteed because you can play tennis, I can play tennis (that's what my family does), but I'll be damned if it helped me get down to *whatever* all those years ago.

If you are working hard (practice and lessons) and getting the right experience on the course, you'll do it.


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

Having played tennis it will certainly help your timeing for hitting the ball as for setting your self a goal of 7 which IMO is a doable target i would say enjoy the golf and the shots will fall off your handicap no problem but dont try to hard as this can have an adverse affect of your game.


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## Mattie (Dec 15, 2009)

Hi All

Yep it would be great to meet some new golfers around here, im always up for a game!

I play off 28 at the moment, not actually played on a proper 18 hole at the moment, so who knows!

Thanks for all the advice everyone, no doubt ill have some more questions very soon.

Mattie


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## USER1999 (Dec 15, 2009)

My view is no, this isn't possible. You are bound to plateau at some point, where the effort required to break through will be too much, and 2 years does not allow enough time, unless you are out of work. 
14 in a year maybe, and possibly a cut to 10/11 the following year, but without weekly lessons and hours and hours practicing under the watchful eye of a coach, no. As you get lower you start to hit the law of diminishing returns.
I am afraid starting from 28 isn't a good sign either. Bet Tiger didn't play off 28 when he was 5.

Prove me wrong. Go on. You know you can.


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

I dont think having a coach is the be all and end all of being a good golfer!!


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## jammydodger (Dec 15, 2009)

I dont think having a coach is the be all and end all of being a good golfer!!
		
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Finally after all this time someone who speaketh some real sense , my compliments to you. Lessons this and lessons that...pish...get a good book , grab some instructional mags with tips on how to play certain shots (draws and fades etc) and get out on the practice range hour after hour


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## USER1999 (Dec 15, 2009)

May be not, it depends how gifted you are. A natural talent in the short game and putting will be ok without one, as I believe this can't be learned (look at Westwood for chipping, and Garcia for putting as examples), but if your natural talent is a massive carve right, you are going to need coaching.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2009)

I have to agree that it is possible but at best very difficult. Any initial improvements will see you handicap tumble by virtue of the system (0.4 per shot under the CSS) and so it'll only take a couple of decent rounds to get you down to 22-24. Once you start hitting the next handicap levels though and particularly when it gets to the 0.2 and 0.1 per shot it makes life very hard to get any sort of big cut.

I personally think some initial instruction is vital so you're starting from the best possible position in terms of technique. Once you have been shown the basics and can hit a ball with something approaching a repeatable swing you'll need to make sure you have a killer short game as that is where the scores (and the cuts) will be made.

I hate to be the harbinger of doom but I think 28-14 is actually harder than it sounds. Apart from hand eye co-ordination and possibly a bit of help with timing I don't think tennis and golf are comparable (moving ball etc). I hope you prove me wrong but it will take an awful lot of work and practice


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## pokerjoke (Dec 15, 2009)

I also dont believe you need a coach,read as much as you can then practice.Also you need the capacity to learn,that means take things on board.I myself started playing october 08 at a twenty four handicap after giving 3 cards in.ive only ever had 1 lesson the rest is self taught all from book or magazine reading.I have won 5 comps this year and now am a 12hp.i will guarantee now i will be single figures within 2 years of starting golf,im also 44yrs old.i do understand there are all levels but if you believe you can you will.My inspiration was my dad he is 67yrs old and is an 11.9 hp i told him i would beat him ,and i would practice till i did.About a month ago i beat him on level terms,as you can see by the post handicap targets 4 next year many people have a goal,remember no goals no glory.


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## USER1999 (Dec 15, 2009)

There is quite a big cross over from tennis bizarrely. My wife plays a decent game of tennis, and when talking about her back hand, alot of the mechanics are very similar to a golf swing. The down side is it would be a left handed back hand for a right handed golfer.

I still think lessons at the start are vital, as once you have an ingrained swing, further changes are very hard to take to.


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## RGDave (Dec 15, 2009)

There is quite a big cross over from tennis bizarrely.
		
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Do you mean in a negative way (i.e. not guaranteed one will help the other), because if you do, I agree.

I know youngsters who can do one but not the other. Besides, stationary ball games are different i.m.o.

I gave up serious cricket because my batting was too weak, purely the speed was making life too hard.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2009)

I have to be honest and don't subscribe to this self taught theory. I accept that there are some that have the ability to get to a certain level based on a natural ability. For my money, golf has such a multitude of different skills to accomplish and is the swing is one of those things that can't be seen as it is being done that reading and absorbing information can only take you so far. Why waste time at a range trying different things out that may or may not work and which in turn could be compromising other parts of the game. I'd rather have someone who understands the golf swing and can communicate the necessary information to me and can see instantly if I've understood and performed the changes required. I love working on my swing at a range (probably a bit too much) but would rather spend the time working on something I know will progress me forward than guessing/hoping it will help.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2009)

Well Mattie, there you have it.
Some experts saying get lessons, some say read books and do it yourself.
Who are right? Both are right. 
Some are natural and want to figure it out themselves.
Some prefer to use the Pros to guide and help them along.
All you have to do is work out which one you are and go for it.
If you decide to go it alone, the internet is a great source of information along with books and mags...my only advice would be 
Make sure you know what your fault is before you go searching for the cure.
Good luck


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## slugger (Dec 15, 2009)

I think at least a small amount of coaching from a good teaching pro is a must... however, there's no substitute for experience and the only way to learn how to get he ball in the hole in the least amount of shots possible is to play the game. 

Get some lessons to make sure you've got the basics right, then get practicing and playing as much as is possible.

How can you have a handicap if you've not played a full 18 hole course yet?


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## pokerjoke (Dec 15, 2009)

I think you have just contradicted yourself,in one sentence you say spending time up the range working on something that might effect other parts of your game is a waste,then you say you spend lots of time up the range working on your swing that is not broke.To me the whole idea of going up the range is to fix a fault you might have,or to try something new that you couldnt try during a game.I do agree that fine tuning skills you already have is a good idea.


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

I am not totally against coaching it can be very good for some people, but i think coaches will try and teach the ideal "modern" golf swing and personally i dont think that is good. if you look back at the greats of the game they are natural golfers and whereas their golf is exceptional i think the aspiring golfer can learn more from watching them and trying to emmulate than going for lessons.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2009)

PJ

I think you misunderstood. I love working on my swing with the intent on making it more reliable. However I only work on changes under the guidance of my teaching pro and then spend my time working on the drills he's given me. I wouldn't dream of getting a magazine and deciding to change my swing based on the article alone and even less without getting a professional to make sure what I was doing was correct. 

I have to disagree with pros teaching a modern swing. Mine, as flawed as it is is also a throwback to the 80's when I was really learning the game properly and is very much in the old Johnny Miller or Howard Clark stlye of drving with the legs. My current pro recognises that I'm never going to change to hitting against a firmer left side (the so called modern way) and so we are working on things that makes what I have more reliable and consistant. Tempo and giving myself more time through the shot has been the main one and then we'll look at the spine angle once I have a slower swing.


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## Region3 (Dec 15, 2009)

I started playing before the internet and all that it brings was available to the masses, and got down to 10 before I packed up, without ever having a lesson.

I've had a couple of lessons since I started playing again and although it's helped, I'm convinced I could get to single figures without them.
The biggest help for me was actually seeing myself performing what I thought was a pretty decent swing, and realising I didn't bear much resemblance to the image I had in my head.
From that I can work on what I see as being wrong without having to go back to the pro ad infinitum.

As far as talent at other sports transferring to golf goes, I think it's not so much being good at one particular sport will help, but rather a natural ability for sports in general. Good hand-eye co-ordination is one of the things that is a big factor in that, regardless of whether or not the ball (puck, shuttlecock, whatever) is moving or not.

I know it's not exactly the same, but although the golf ball is still, the player still has to control the head of a golf club which can be moving in excess of 100mph.


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

Tempo and giving myself more time through the shot has been the main one and then we'll look at the spine angle once I have a slower swing.
		
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I can see what you are saying and if it works for you great.

The above says it all for me though i mean spine angle?? i completly agree with tempo as these are the basics of a golf swing along with timing and balance but if i were worrying about spine angle i would spend way too much time worrying about my golf swing than actually enjoying my golf.

As someone mentioned earlier its each to there own there is no right or wrong way but IMO getting to technical is pointless.


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## JustOne (Dec 15, 2009)

i completly agree with tempo as these are the basics of a golf swing along with timing and balance but if i were worrying about spine angle i would spend way too much time worrying about my golf swing than actually enjoying my golf.
		
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Tom Watson would probably say otherwise...

"The Secret to the Golf Swing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cntSpVbZo


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

i completly agree with tempo as these are the basics of a golf swing along with timing and balance but if i were worrying about spine angle i would spend way too much time worrying about my golf swing than actually enjoying my golf.
		
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Tom Watson would probably say otherwise...

"The Secret to the Golf Swing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cntSpVbZo

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Fair point

The fella is a legend no arguments.

He is also a pro and needs to have the best swing for his profession.  My point and as i said each to their own is that we are amatuers and golf is suppose to be about enjoyment and IMO getting to technical takes some of that enjoyment away.


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## JustOne (Dec 15, 2009)

we are amatuers and golf is suppose to be about enjoyment and IMO getting to technical takes some of that enjoyment away.
		
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Hehe, you tell me one golfer who plays off 15 or less that hasn't tweaked at least 2,500 things with their swing and I'll give you Â£1  

Once you get off that magical 28 h/cap the trouble really starts  

(nb: I saw Homers swing in there at 4.01 min)

I reckon 7 is easily doable... but I'd wait to put those first 3 cards in for 18 months and go straight in at 7.4


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## Robobum (Dec 15, 2009)

I don't think you can isolate "spine angle" as the secret to a swing. A good spine angle is part of the basics along with grip, alignment, posture etc. That good spine angle remains as a result of the correct turn.

I think it was John Jacobs that said as long as you get set up with good fundamentals the swing is just two turns and a swish, anyone who tries to make it more complicated is a fool.

He probably finished by saying "ding, dong ladies". Always thought he had a bit of the Leslie Philips about him


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2009)

The thing is, to some people, the enjoyment is in the practice.
I think I know what youre saying S.Back... Homer is thinking too much about his swing and not enjoying playing golf.
I would have to agree to a point that some people would find it simpler to limit the swing thoughts to 1 or 2 during the swing, but if it makes people happy, go for it.


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## JustOne (Dec 15, 2009)

I think it was John Jacobs that said as long as you get set up with good fundamentals the swing is just two turns and a swish, anyone who tries to make it more complicated is a fool.
		
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Totally agree however spine angle is part of that setup, get that right then it's simply turn back, turn through... oh yeh, and a swish 

You can't do it if you're too upright or too stooped as you'd have to manipulate the club with your hands which is adding complications. I'd go as far to say that good posture is the No1 requirement for a good swing... erm, which means I agree with Mr.Watson, oooer!


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## Robobum (Dec 15, 2009)

...I'd go as far to say that good posture is the No1 requirement for a good swing... erm, which means I agree with Mr.Watson oooer! 

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It'll certainly give you a better chance of producing a good swing.

#1 is blanking out the "smash it harder" demon whispering in your ear!!!


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## JustOne (Dec 15, 2009)

#1 is blanking out the "smash it harder" demon whispering in your ear!!! 

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#2 is blanking out the "don't slice it" demon in the other ear!!!


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

Justoneuk

I agree you need a good posture but are you saying when you first picked up a golf club you thought i wonder what angle my spine is at??

I mean it took Mr Watson until 1992 to work it out so he wasnt thinking of it!!


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## Robobum (Dec 15, 2009)

#1 is blanking out the "smash it harder" demon whispering in your ear!!! 

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#2 is blanking out the "don't slice it" demon in the other ear!!! 

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Exactly, that's 2 "swing" thoughts already how the f**k have we got time to think about spine angle!!


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2009)

What controls the spine angle?


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## JustOne (Dec 15, 2009)

Justoneuk

I agree you need a good posture but are you saying when you first picked up a golf club you thought i wonder what angle my spine is at??

I mean it took Mr Watson until 1992 to work it out so he wasnt thinking of it!!  

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You know what... it's the key to my swing, here's the thing....

I never had a lesson ever, one of my mates played off 2 and I pretty much trusted everything he ever said, swing, equipment, balls, gloves you name it. We used to play and practice together and whilst we had slightly different swings we used to share the same ideas and I was playing off 4. One day my swing literally just died, I couldn't hit a barn door with a cow's banjo   I was in the middle of a medal and literally shanked my way round the front 9, I called it a day and didn't hit a ball for 7 years.

Last year I picked up the clubs and fell straight back into my swing however after 2 rounds I got someone to video my swing - I was almost standing upright! no wonder it was so bad.

I've never listened to my 2 h/cap friends so called 'advice' since then, if he had told me how bad it was I would have not missed 7 years of golf, my fault I should have had a lesson  

Set up properly (no compensations) and you stand a good chance of hitting a proper golf shot. Go with a strong grip/open stance/bad posture or whatever and you've already introduced problems.

Keep it simple (if you can) is the order of the day in my opinion.


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

Keep it simple (if you can) is the order of the day in my opinion.
		
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Good call


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2009)

What I'm saying about the spine angle relates to the videos I've posted on here where clearly I straighten up on the downswing and my spine angle is much straighter than my address position. I'm not looking at that as a key to a good swing but a major problem that has been raised on here by those who know about these things (and a few who don't but it was so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it) and that once I have slowed my swing down (way too fast to have any control at the moment) then my pro can start to work on the swing itself. Its about doing theings in the right order


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## jammydodger (Dec 15, 2009)

For me though the beauty is being able to work on your swing without going to the pro. I've spent hours and hours working through things on the range to groove what I think is a very repeatable swing. I have no idea what it looks like on video and couldnt care less tbh. I hit it long and can work it both ways at will , I work very hard at the short game and all the types of shot you need to score well.

I've had probably 5 lessons in 13 years ( 5 of those not even playing). I gained nothing but confusion from these , with pros telling me to change this and move that. I dont want a pros swing I want a good amateurs swing that will enable me to repeat it time and again.

I hardly ever practice my putting as I see this as the one part where I prefer to trust my feel and natural talent.

The biggest thing for me when getting down lower and lower is the mental aspect of golf. You have to learn to trust yourself in pressure situations and let the golf flow. No getting stroppy and cursing and club throwing. You cant play golf when angry or frustrated


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## Screwback (Dec 15, 2009)

I've had probably 5 lessons in 13 years ( 5 of those not even playing). I gained nothing but confusion from these , with pros telling me to change this and move that. I dont want a pros swing I want a good amateurs swing that will enable me to repeat it time and again.
		
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Jammydodger, Nail on the Head

This is the point i was trying to make earlier about pros trying to teach a pro like swing rather than a good repetitive amatuer swing.


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## EaseNgrace (Dec 15, 2009)

I have always thought of myself as a natural in the sense that I learnt to play golf aged 4 just by watching other golfers like my Dad and brothers. They say I hit the ball well from the first time of trying, and I still to this day haven't had a lesson. I think the key to getting 'down to 7 in two years' for example, is not only having natural ability, but having the ability to shoot low scores, which I believe is a different thing entirely. This may sound stupid I know. I guess this is where the lessons come in, to have a coach/mentor working with you regularly to help apply the natural ability on the course and improve scoring and consistency by way of efficient methodology.
Too much of this 'swing thoughts' and tweaking the swing on the range way of thinking just confuses things and is more of a hinderance when it comes to good fluent golf IMO.
Now that i've written that, makes me think I ought to try it myself, then maybe i'd be playing off 7. Bloody hypocrite.


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## Up_Point_1 (Dec 15, 2009)

At the end of the day if you have the talent to get down to 7 then you'll get to 7. If you don't you wont.

Have a few lessons by all means to get the fundamentals sorted but it doesn't guarantee you single figure golf. 

A guy at my club manages to maintain his scratch handicap throughout the year with no practice whatsoever. Yet, another guy at our club throws literally hundreds of pounds at the pro on lessons and by his own admission accepts he  will never be better than an 28 handicapper.

Don't be swayed by the advice from the "know it all paralysis by analysis" brigade who insist on disecting every single minute detail of their golf swing in the quest for ultimate perfection. If they insist on checking: the temperature of their testicles, the angle of their penis at 4 o'clock, the time in Dubai, the current pound/euro exchange rate, the weather in the Faroe Isles, the angle of a protractor on a mole hill...................before making a golf swing I suggest they're in the wrong sport    

If you have the talent you'll get there, if you don't you wont, simples.

At the end of the day enjoy it whatever level you get to and accept it for what it is.


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## JustOne (Dec 16, 2009)

Don't be swayed by the advice from the "know it all paralysis by analysis" brigade who insist on disecting every single minute detail of their golf swing in the quest for ultimate perfection. If they insist on checking: the temperature of their testicles, the angle of their penis at 4 o'clock, the time in Dubai, the current pound/euro exchange rate, the weather in the Faroe Isles, the angle of a protractor on a mole hill...................before making a golf swing I suggest they're in the wrong sport   

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Ahhh, if only it were that simple. Put most golfers on the driving range when they are having a not so good hitting day.. they want to know what's wrong and what to do to put it right asap. If only it were that easy to fix ones own swing we would all be pro's.


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## Smiffy (Dec 16, 2009)

With regular practice, lessons and playing more regularly, I reckon I could go from 12 to 18 in six months.
Somebody with natural ability could most probably go the other way.


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## jammydodger (Dec 16, 2009)

If only it were that easy to fix ones own swing we would all be pro's.
		
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I may have to disagree slilghtly here. You're assuming the swing was a pros standard swing in the first place. When I 'fix' my swing I get it back to what it was before (which is a good amateurs one) , not one thats going to earn me a living unfortunately.

I couldnt physically attain the 'pros' swing anyway , and most of us on here probably couldnt either


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## Roops (Dec 24, 2009)

Goal setting is a great idea, however, beware. I spent most of this year listening to people tell me that my handicap would tumble and that I was much better than my handicap indicated. When it didn't happen, I started to wonder what the hell was going on.

Taking a step back, fogetting about the handicap and just playing and enjoying saw a cut straight away.

So my advice, set goals, but never at the expense of enjoyment. Learn to laugh at the duffed chips, let the poor shots go, this game is difficult enough without overburdening yourself with expectation.


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## AMcC (Dec 24, 2009)

Have to agree with Roops, I also tended to focus too much on making a score, instead of just playing one shot at a time and seeing what happens.  Just relax and enjoy.


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