# Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...



## AmandaJR (Apr 19, 2020)

Post here and leave the other thread to be "how is it affecting you". It used to be my go to thread each day as it was informative and potentially a place for those having a bad day to say 
"I'm struggling today".

Now it's the brexit thread by another name.

So feel free to discuss PPE and who's right and wrong to your heart's content *BELOW* - please...pretty please.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2020)

Well i have just read through this thread on twitter where is shows the whole article from the Sunday Times


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251606098974474244
Trump maybe an incompetent leader in the public domain but if this ST article is telling the truth then our leader is showing the same level of incompetence but hidden behind the scenes

It could be argued that the lack of action could be criminal to the point that lives were lost because of their actions or indeed lack of actions. New Zealand appeared to act immediately and just look at their figures

This was Boris Johnson first real test of leadership and for me he has so far been found wanting in fact he has failed to lead our country. He was desperate to be in charge to the point he lied and cheated his way to the top. I have impressed by the chancellor but our PM has let us down - and it’s the point where it’s making me think about his scare with the virus and how bad it was


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## AmandaJR (Apr 19, 2020)

Thanks Phil


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 19, 2020)

Well there you go first post on this thread and it's a socialists  let's kick Boris cos some other country a million miles away did it differently . Nothing to do with the fact that if you want to talk to your neighbour in that country you probably have to drive fifty bloody Mike's to to get within earshot


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Well there you go first post on this thread and it's a socialists  let's kick Boris cos some other country a million miles away did it differently . Nothing to do with the fact that if you want to talk to your neighbour in that country you probably have to drive fifty bloody Mike's to to get within earshot
		
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And this is why political threads are pointless. Phil posts a lengthy opinion, backed by evidence. And the immediate response is to attack.

Debate the opinion or attack the poster. Too much of the latter, and not enough of the former.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Well there you go first post on this thread and it's a socialists  let's kick Boris cos some other country a million miles away did it differently . Nothing to do with the fact that if you want to talk to your neighbour in that country you probably have to drive fifty bloody Mike's to to get within Earshot
		
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And there is the first post from someone “attacking” another poster just because you don’t agree with their opinion

It two posts for someone to make it personal

How about you try and debate the actual points being made and not the poster


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Well there you go first post on this thread and it's a socialists  let's kick Boris cos some other country a million miles away did it differently . Nothing to do with the fact that if you want to talk to your neighbour in that country you probably have to drive fifty bloody Mike's to to get within earshot
		
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And did you see who wrote the article 'Owen Jones' the most extreme left wing Tory hating journalist in the land
Very unbiased.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And did you see who wrote the article 'Owen Jones' the most extreme left wing Tory hating journalist in the land
Very unbiased.
		
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Did he? Or did he just link to that well known lefty socialist rag, The Sunday Times..... Oh.....


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 19, 2020)

The evidence is hardly fact based , it's a snipe at Boris fullstop. NZ is sparsley populated to compared tous and as such the spread of a virus would be far far less than a more densly populated country 
It's not rocket science and 
digging at Boris isn't going to change things 
I have no political bent although I did vote Tory last time around (the opposition wasn't worth considering )
But does anyone really thi nk Boris could have done it differently , at the time of the lockdown people were bitching about him doing it too soon


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2020)

Awful idea of a thread this, sorry Amanda it needs deleting, personal attack and straight downhill from the off.
The main thread really hasn’t been that Political, 99% have behaved and supported the Government, this thread will drive division and spill back on to the other thread.

Locked or binned for me!


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## rosecott (Apr 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Awful idea of a thread this, sorry Amanda it needs deleting, personal attack and straight downhill from the off.
The main thread really hasn’t been that Political, 99% have behaved and supported the Government, this thread will drive division and spill back on to the other thread.

Locked or binned for me!
		
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I too have been looking for an "ignore this thread" button.


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## huds1475 (Apr 19, 2020)

Crikey, that didn’t take long 

FWIW I read the article and it’s no different to some of the pro / anti government articles that have been published countless times across the last month or so.

I’m not sure how they help at this point in time. Most, including this, are relatively shallow examinations of timelines to paint a narrative. Would much prefer a forensic review with evidence and facts (ever the optimist).


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I too have been looking for an "ignore this thread" button.
		
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To be fair, the idea was good. The first post was challenging but was also the biggest story doing the rounds today so needed posting. Then it went downhill when people who clearly hadn’t read the article started attacking it and the poster. A sad (but wholly expected) indictment of this forum currently. 

I think I’ll also excuse myself from it now...


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Crikey, that didn’t take long 

FWIW I read the article and it’s no different to some of the pro / anti government articles that have been published countless times across the last month or so.

I’m not sure how they help at this point in time. Most, including this, are relatively shallow examinations of timelines to paint a narrative. Would much prefer a forensic review with evidence and facts (ever the optimist).
		
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To be fair, the article itself isn’t really the story. It’s the newspaper that’s carrying it.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2020)

Some Americans

Lemmings jumping over a cliff comes to mind.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2020)

I have seen a lot of conspiracy theories related to Bill Gates similar to ones related to him and computer viruses.


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## huds1475 (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			To be fair, the article itself isn’t really the story. It’s the newspaper that’s carrying it.
		
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I get that, and thought the same.

But there is a lot of content assimilation doing the rounds at the moment, possibly because there is only really one story in town.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

I think its a great idea to post up a thread like this for those that feel the need to link the issues politically. There's merit in that. Some people want to deal with the mechanics of fighting COVID, and that's fine too. We all get to choose which threads we read and contribute to.

The ST article is relevant to this discussion, irrespective of whether you agree with it. Well posted Phil!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

There's no doubt that the Government and its advisers will be found to have made errors in their handling of the crisis. 

However, having read the ST article I think there is too much of a danger of reaching a  conclusion based upon not enough evidence at this stage.  

Throughout the media have been quick to seize upon opinions and theories offered by those with a different view to that of the Govt. Understandable  as, in their eyes at least, it makes for a good headline 

This latest article is no different with much of its content attributed to unnamed sources and of the remainder much comes from those with a  previously expressed difference of opinion to the Govt's advisers. 

But a wonderful opportunity for the likes of Owen Jones to snipe. 

Once the country emerges from this then and only then there should be an independent enquiry into the handling and all those giving evidence should be fully assured of immunity and protection from any action. 

That is when questions should be asked, not now when all efforts should be focused on the present and dealing with the virus.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			The evidence is hardly fact based , it's a snipe at Boris fullstop. NZ is sparsley populated to compared tous and as such the spread of a virus would be far far less than a more densly populated country
It's not rocket science and
digging at Boris isn't going to change things
I have no political bent although I did vote Tory last time around (the opposition wasn't worth considering )
But does anyone really thi nk Boris could have done it differently , at the time of the lockdown people were bitching about him doing it too soon
		
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I think what it shows is you haven’t read the Sunday Times article of which have the facts that people are referring to and you instead just looked at what I posted. The article clearly states about Boris being missing from many important cobra meetings , members of his cabinet attempting to downplay the whole issue

Many I should use South Korea as an example ? Either way some countries acted quicker and understood the threat straight away and didn’t attempt to downplay it or come up with ideas like “herd community” - remember it was our leader on a sofa saying we should “take it on the chin” “ let it spread through us “ etc 

In this time of crisis the country has needed a strong leader - from evidence I don’t believe we have had one and indeed maybe others within the cabinet have stepped up and shown themselves to be stronger

It’s just an opinion but I hope when this finishes there will be a full enquiry and timeline to see if someone could have been done a lot earlier to restrict the number of people who have died - I suspect there could have been


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## Imurg (Apr 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think what it shows is you haven’t read the Sunday Times article of which have the facts that people are referring to and you instead just looked at what I posted. The article clearly states about Boris being missing from many important cobra meetings , members of his cabinet attempting to downplay the whole issue

Many I should use South Korea as an example ? Either way some countries acted quicker and understood the threat straight away and didn’t attempt to downplay it or come up with ideas like “herd community” - remember it was our leader on a sofa saying we should “take it on the chin” “ let it spread through us “ etc

In this time of crisis the country has needed a strong leader - from evidence I don’t believe we have had one and indeed maybe others within the cabinet have stepped up and shown themselves to be stronger

It’s just an opinion but I hope when this finishes there will be a full enquiry and timeline to see if someone could have been done a lot earlier to restrict the number of people who have died - I suspect there could have been
		
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And as MM says..that's the time for it.
Producing an article like this now is going to lead to ...unrest, anxiety and worry.
Of course mistakes will have been made but were they made because the advice given to the Government was wrong or that they acted inappropriately on that advice..
At the moment it doesn't matter..what's done is done...we need to focus on Now and Later
We can't skip back 2 months and start again
These things need to be left until we've emerged from the crisis - then everyone can fill their boots.
So much of the so called journalism going on at the moment is, in my view, simply to justify the journalist's existence.
People need to realise that, like it or not, the Torys  are in charge. Trying to undermine that drifts focus from the job in hand.
There will be plenty of time for ramifications,excuses and blaming when we've survived.


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## huds1475 (Apr 19, 2020)

Its a good idea by the way Amanda


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

Waiting until after it is all done when it is already too late for too many... The shortcomings need identifying and addressing asap...

The people we voted in to look after us need to start stepping up to the plate...


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			There's no doubt that the Government and its advisers will be found to have made errors in their handling of the crisis.

*However, having read the ST article I think there is too much of a danger of reaching a  conclusion based upon not enough evidence at this stage. *

Throughout the media have been quick to seize upon opinions and theories offered by those with a different view to that of the Govt. Understandable  as, in their eyes at least, it makes for a good headline

This latest article is no different with much of its content attributed to unnamed sources and of the remainder much comes from those with a  previously expressed difference of opinion to the Govt's advisers.

But a wonderful opportunity for the likes of Owen Jones to snipe.

Once the country emerges from this then and only then there should be an independent enquiry into the handling and all those giving evidence should be fully assured of immunity and protection from any action.

That is when questions should be asked, not now when all efforts should be focused on the present and dealing with the virus.
		
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Nail on head for me.  Interesting that the article states at one stage we'd stockpiled that much PPE that it had gone out of date, yet the Government is being pilloried for not having enough PPE.  Something in that doesn't add up, as do a few other bits.  I'm not saying there's no truth in it, there may be some truth, but there's also an awful lot of conjecture and hearsay.  I'll wait for the enquiry before I sign up to the lynching party.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Waiting until after it is all done when it is already too late for too many... The shortcomings need identifying and addressing asap...

The people we voted in to look after us need to start stepping up to the plate...
		
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I agree that the day to day handling of the crisis requires close scrutiny. 

What I think would be wrong would be if we try to reach conclusions about the overall outcome before there even is an outcome. 

Pointless at this stage to be questioning the Govt's actions in January and February as that ship has sailed.

Far more important to question them on the present and the future with an overall enquiry after this has been brought under control.


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## bobmac (Apr 19, 2020)

The whole world was caught with its pants down.
Since then, everyone's pulling them up as fast as they can.
Unfortunately/fortunately, we haven't had a global pandemic recently to learn from so we're learning as we go.
I'm satisfied everyone is doing their best.
Except of course for the nutters who keep going out unnecessarily.
If anyone wants to have a go at someone, have a go at them


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## Stuart_C (Apr 19, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The whole world was caught with its pants down.
Since then, everyone's pulling them up as fast as they can.
Unfortunately/fortunately, we haven't had a global pandemic recently to learn from so we're learning as we go.
I'm satisfied everyone is doing their best
		
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The whole world never had vital info for 5 weeks before they acted on it.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree that the day to day handling of the crisis requires close scrutiny.

What I think would be wrong would be if we try to reach conclusions about the overall outcome before there even is an outcome.

Pointless at this stage to be questioning the Govt's actions in January and February as that ship has sailed.

Far more important to question them on the present and the future with an overall enquiry after this has been brought under control.
		
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Three of my neighbours are frontline NHS workers and they are going to work scared and that simply shouldn't be happening...

Do they think the government is doing right by them?
Not so from what they've told me...


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## Rlburnside (Apr 19, 2020)

For those that say don’t question our government at this stage and it serves no purpose  I would say if we don’t question them about funding to scientists to find a vaccine ASAP we will be worse off.

It’s to late now about the mistakes that have been made already but as one of the scientists at Oxford University said this morning funding must be a priority for their work, I just hope that the government are on to this.


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## IainP (Apr 19, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Waiting until after it is all done when it is already too late for too many... The shortcomings need identifying and addressing asap...

The people we voted in to look after us need to start stepping up to the plate...
		
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Is there a game of baseball coming up? 😉


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## User62651 (Apr 19, 2020)

Loving this thread title - call it like it is ,............if only government could do that too.

Instead I'm having to rely on Andrew Neil, Piers Morgan and others to press ministers for facts with the Cult of Boris membership obfuscating at every turn.

Look this latest news came from The Sunday Times, not The Guardian or Mirror so can't be instantly derided as political, they are a Tory paper after all. In that regard it's content should be taken on board and it's claims countered or clarified by Govt, hopefully will be later today but expect waffle and deflection, it'll somehow end up the fault of anyone but those in charge and actually Boris attended all those Cobra meets via skype.


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2020)

Any item through the prism of hindsight can be discounted.

Wallop.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 19, 2020)

Edited the title! "Sniping" put my slant on it


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

IanM said:



			Any item through the prism of hindsight can be discounted.

Wallop.
		
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I am going to suggest there is already sufficient "hindsight" to hand... That if acted on swiftly could see some genuine benefits for achieving better outcomes...


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## IanM (Apr 19, 2020)

No argument from me there.   But on my news feeds this morning are both...

...end the lockdown and extend the lockdown 
..allow flights , stop flights

Etc etc

Time to reissue the "man in the arena " speech


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 19, 2020)

Certain members are posting things that support their own political leanings, whilst this is a natural reaction, it can have the effect of winding up other members with opposing views.

My feeling is that it is too early for recriminations, I’d rather read a balanced view, looking at all sides

With respect, anything Owen Jones writes is never going to be described as balanced


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am going to suggest there is already sufficient "hindsight" to hand... That if acted on swiftly could see some genuine benefits for achieving better outcomes...
		
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Is there a consignment of magic wands due in from Disneyland.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Certain members are posting things that support their own political leanings, whilst this is a natural reaction, it can have the effect of winding up other members with opposing views.

My feeling is that it is too early for recriminations, I’d rather read a balanced view, looking at all sides

With respect, anything Owen Jones writes is never going to be described as balanced
		
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With respect, the author of the piece in the ST wasn't Owen Jones...
Merely him that tweeted the article otherwise hidden behind a paywall...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Certain members are posting things that support their own political leanings, whilst this is a natural reaction, it can have the effect of winding up other members with opposing views.

My feeling is that it is too early for recriminations, I’d rather read a balanced view, looking at all sides

With respect, anything Owen Jones writes is never going to be described as balanced
		
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Owen Jones didn’t write the article and certain people reacted to a poster as opposed to what the actual article said.

The article was also posted in a well known Pro Tory paper so what political leaning does that show. 

I would also suggest that people are reacting in a way because it maybe highlights that the government ( whose political side they support ) potentially could be culpable for lives being lost based on poor or incorrect initial reactions to the issue


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is there a consignment of magic wands due in from Disneyland.
		
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And posting this comment achieves what exactly?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Loving this thread title - call it like it is ,............if only government could do that too.

Instead I'm having to rely on Andrew Neil, Piers Morgan and others to press ministers for facts with the Cult of Boris membership obfuscating at every turn.

Look this latest news came from The Sunday Times, not The Guardian or Mirror so can't be instantly derided as political, they are a Tory paper after all. In that regard it's content should be taken on board and it's claims countered or clarified by Govt, hopefully will be later today but expect waffle and deflection, it'll somehow end up the fault of anyone but those in charge and actually Boris attended all those Cobra meets via skype.

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According to the Scots Tory leader BBC Scotland is now showing bias towards the SNP.
The Times turning against a Tory Government and BBC Scotland supporting the SNP...........has hell frozen over.

Me re title thread, I do not think that history will judge this Westminster Government well.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			And posting this comment achieves what exactly?
		
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Sarcastic balance.  Anyone believing that the Government have been flying by the seat of their pants rather than following the advice of leading Scientific and Medical experts needs a dose of reality.  Dealing with such a massive emergency the like we have never seen in our life times is not an easy task.  Playing political sound bites at this time is IMO pointless and petty.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2020)

If we are going to compare our response against other countries - glad I do not live in Japan.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			According to the Scots Tory leader BBC Scotland is now showing bias towards the SNP.
The Times turning against a Tory Government and BBC Scotland supporting the SNP...........has hell frozen over.

Me re title thread, I do not think that history will judge this Westminster Government well.
		
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Pathetic meany mouthed posting.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

There does seem to be a bit of a misconception that the Times and Sunday Times are particularly pro Conservative. 

In recent elections their endorsement has swayed between the two major parties. 

Generally speaking I believe they would consider themselves to be issue led.

Obviously the same cannot be said for Owen Jones who brought the article to many people's attention.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Sarcastic balance.  Anyone believing that the Government have been flying by the seat of their pants rather than following the advice of leading Scientific and Medical experts needs a dose of reality.  Dealing with such a massive emergency the like we have never seen in our life times is not an easy task.  Playing political sound bites at this time is IMO pointless and petty.
		
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I am sure you know what they say about sarcasm... I believe the government is in denial with regard its handling of the basics... And, until it takes that on board and deals with it I remain concerned with its ability to resolve the bigger issues required to achieve a least worse outcome...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am sure you know what they say about sarcasm... I believe the government is in denial with regard its handling of the basics... And, until it takes that on board and deals with it I remain concerned with its ability to resolve the bigger issues required to achieve a least worse outcome...
		
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And I disagree with your belief. It's too soon for that kind of judgement and you are simplifying a very complex issue.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Owen Jones didn’t write the article and certain people reacted to a poster as opposed to what the actual article said.

The article was also posted in a well known Pro Tory paper so what political leaning does that show.

I would also suggest that people are reacting in a way because it maybe highlights that the government ( whose political side they support ) potentially could be culpable for lives being lost based on poor or incorrect initial reactions to the issue
		
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Anything Owen Jones supports is politically biased in the extreme.  If Tommy Robinson tweeted support of a newspaper article you would feel the same.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Anything Owen Jones supports is politically biased in the extreme.  If Tommy Robinson tweeted support of a newspaper article you would feel the same.
		
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I don’t care who tweets the support of the article - that’s not the point and it shouldn’t distract from the content of the article itself . People are more than capable of reading an article and judging it purely on the content as opposed to who “shared” it on the Internet.

Who shared on twitter is irrelevant and I would potentially suggest that people who focus on someone who shared it is prob trying to deflect away from the actual content. 

You have posted a few times about the article but not actually said anything about the content or challenged it - more about posting sarcastic remarks. Do you have an actual opinion on the article or are you preferring to concentrate elsewhere


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## User62651 (Apr 19, 2020)

Was out there well before Owen Jones got hold of it, I saw it on twitter from other sources, but OJ went to get it past the Times pay barrier. I would agree OJs is not a balanced view. 
Moot point but you just know JHunt would've been far better at this PM job, it's an adults job after all. Remember the 31/10 promise that couldn't be kept, Hunt was honest, BJ was not. Honesty does not matter where PM is concerned. As for Gove, slippery doesn't come close. Seen suggestions Gove and Murdoch are in cahoots over this story release.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

We seem to have a fairly seismic split on this thread. 

On one side are the people who’ve read the article and can discuss its content. 

On the other side are those who haven’t read it but have judged its content based on the fact that a person they don’t like has brought attention to it. 

I just feel sorry for the actual authors of the piece. I’m not sure they’ll be overly happy that Owen Jones appears to be getting credit for it.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And I disagree with your belief. It's too soon for that kind of judgement and you are simplifying a very complex issue.
		
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Looks like we are in an agreeing to disagree impasse...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think it's quite telling that an explosive story like this is published and nobody seems willing to refute its content. Instead we get "now is not the time", "oooh hindsight" and "I don't like Owen Jones" (who did nothing other than tweet the article).

Tells me that the report rings true across the political spectrum.
		
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Just as some might say that the willingness of some to accept the contents of the article as absolutely correct says much about the political standpoint of those individuals. 

Over the years The Insight team at the Sunday Times have undertaken some great work. 

However,  they have also been wrong on a number of occasions and had to subsequently retract certain stories. 

Personally I want to see an independent, judicial review not trial by media.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Just as some might say that the willingness of some to accept the contents of the article as absolutely correct says much about the political standpoint of those individuals.

Over the years The Insight team at the Sunday Times have undertaken some great work.

However,  they have also been wrong on a number of occasions and had to subsequently retract certain stories.

Personally I want to see an independent, judicial review not trial by media.
		
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However, even if they’re wrong (and I’m certainly not saying that they aren’t), it’s articles like this that spark debate and lead to the momentum required to launch independent enquiries. If we all sit quietly, accepting everything that is happening then nothing will ever change.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			We seem to have a fairly seismic split on this thread.

On one side are the people who’ve read the article and can discuss its content.

On the other side are those who haven’t read it but have judged its content based on the fact that a person they don’t like has brought attention to it.

I just feel sorry for the actual authors of the piece. I’m not sure they’ll be overly happy that Owen Jones appears to be getting credit for it.
		
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And there are those of us who have read the article but don't think that this is the best time for an inquiry into actions which cannot now be reversed.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And there are those of us who have read the article but don't think that this is the best time for an inquiry into actions which cannot now be reversed.
		
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We’re not having an enquiry. We’re having a discussion. 
However, I would expect challenging questions on this from journalists. The answers to these questions will hopefully drive the public discussion for the next few days. 
Once this is over, then I’d expect a full public enquiry.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			However, even if they’re wrong (and I’m certainly not saying that they aren’t), it’s articles like this that spark debate and lead to the momentum required to launch independent enquiries. If we all sit quietly, accepting everything that is happening then nothing will ever change.
		
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I genuinely want a review and also want ongoing scrutiny of the day to day actions of the authorities. 

My concern is that some seem happy to reach a conclusion now based only on one newspaper's report.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2020)

If the article stuck to the factual I'd give it far more credence.  But little gems like this betray an agenda to me;

The prime minister had been sunning himself with his girlfriend in the millionaires’ Caribbean resort of Mustique when China first alerted the World Health Organisation (WHO) on December 31 that several cases of an unusual pneumonia had been recorded in Wuhan, a city of 11 million people in Hubei province.

Of what relevance is that to how he has performed afterwards; and how is it relevant how he spends his New Year?  It's a snide little dig.  If he has been that bad, the facts should stand on their own, if the authors need to resort to this then there's some substance lacking for me.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t care who tweets the support of the article - that’s not the point and it shouldn’t distract from the content of the article itself . People are more than capable of reading an article and judging it purely on the content as opposed to who “shared” it on the Internet.

Who shared on twitter is irrelevant and I would potentially suggest that people who focus on someone who shared it is prob trying to deflect away from the actual content.

You have posted a few times about the article but not actually said anything about the content or challenged it - more about posting sarcastic remarks. Do you have an actual opinion on the article or are you preferring to concentrate elsewhere
		
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The article is a great use of hindsight and as such is no more than a newspaper editorial looking for a sale. I believe the Government has been following the Scientific and Medical advice from the start of this. If you wish to believe otherwise then you are free to do so. I dont come to my conclusion as a rampant Tory supporter but as someone who is trying to stay impartial in this current crisis and let the people who know what they are doing do it.   That's my take on it for what it's worth.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I genuinely want a review and also want ongoing scrutiny of the day to day actions of the authorities.

My concern is that some seem happy to reach a conclusion now based only on one newspaper's report.
		
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To be fair (and I’m conscious of the fact that I’ve started 3 posts on this thread with that same line 😂). Phil posted the article to prompt a discussion. It was immediately dragged off course absolutely unnecessarily by typical little potshots and sarcastic comments from people who should know better.

My view of the article itself is that it stretches a little too far at times. However, I’m incredibly interested in the reasoning behind it. I have my own suspicions about the reasons for the article.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If the article stuck to the factual I'd give it far more credence.  But little gems like this betray an agenda to me;

The prime minister had been sunning himself with his girlfriend in the millionaires’ Caribbean resort of Mustique when China first alerted the World Health Organisation (WHO) on December 31 that several cases of an unusual pneumonia had been recorded in Wuhan, a city of 11 million people in Hubei province.

Of what relevance is that to how he has performed afterwards; and how is it relevant how he spends his New Year?  It's a snide little dig.  If he has been that bad, the facts should stand on their own, if the authors need to resort to this then there's some substance lacking for me.
		
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In all honesty. I actually agree that some shots are a little personal. Which is why I don’t think it’s an attack on the Government. I think that someone just declared a dirty war on Boris Johnson.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			To be fair (and I’m conscious of the fact that I’ve started 3 posts on this thread with that same line 😂). Phil posted the article to prompt a discussion. It was immediately dragged off course absolutely unnecessarily by typical little potshots and sarcastic comments from people who should know better.
		
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In fairness Phil rightly qualified his initial comment with the proviso that comment was dependent upon  the article's contents being subject to verification. 

He did,  however, go on to condemn Johnson and even question the authenticity of his illness. IMO that is a cheap shot and I would assure you that I  would feel exactly the same if a similar dig was aimed at Starmer or any other politician.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 19, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With respect, the author of the piece in the ST wasn't Owen Jones...
Merely him that tweeted the article otherwise hidden behind a paywall...
		
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Excuse my ignorance but what is a paywall


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Excuse my ignorance but what is a paywall
		
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A paywall is something that people should pay if they want to fund quality journalism. Or crap journalism for balance. 
However, putting papers online will put me out of a job, so all you good people keep buying newspapers 😂


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## drdel (Apr 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			There's no doubt that the Government and its advisers will be found to have made errors in their handling of the crisis.

However, having read the ST article I think there is too much of a danger of reaching a  conclusion based upon not enough evidence at this stage. 

Throughout the media have been quick to seize upon opinions and theories offered by those with a different view to that of the Govt. Understandable  as, in their eyes at least, it makes for a good headline

This latest article is no different with much of its content attributed to unnamed sources and of the remainder much comes from those with a  previously expressed difference of opinion to the Govt's advisers.

But a wonderful opportunity for the likes of Owen Jones to snipe.

Once the country emerges from this then and only then there should be an independent enquiry into the handling and all those giving evidence should be fully assured of immunity and protection from any action.

That is when questions should be asked, not now when all efforts should be focused on the present and dealing with the virus.
		
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I agree with most of you comments but not about giving : immunity, anyone providing 'evidence' must be prepared to back it up, IMO.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			I agree with most of you comments but not about giving : immunity, anyone providing 'evidence' must be prepared to back it up, IMO.
		
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Immunity not anonymity. 

If a whistleblower comes forward with genuine evidence (not just an unverified opinion) they should not have to fear for any retribution.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			In all honesty. I actually agree that some shots are a little personal. Which is why I don’t think it’s an attack on the Government. I think that someone just declared a dirty war on Boris Johnson.
		
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Fair comment; power struggle already?


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## fundy (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			A paywall is something that people should pay if they want to fund quality journalism. Or crap journalism for balance.
However, putting papers online will put me out of a job, so all you good people keep buying newspapers 😂
		
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That really is a tough paper round


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## fundy (Apr 19, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Fair comment; power struggle already?
		
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hardly a surprise another of them has delusions of grandeur, pretty sure what my opinion is of anyone from within who thinks this is the time to be stirring the pot for potential future personal gains


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Phil, re-read this and ask yourself whether you're following your own advice.
		
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I try to make an effort to be as neutral as possible
I used the example of Owen Jones, I could easily have used a right wing commentator, the point being that at the moment political point scoring should be put aside


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I didn't see it but read that Gove's defence this morning was "weak".
		
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If it's Gove was it "weak" or "standard"?


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Fair comment; power struggle already?
		
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I’m not 100% sure. But I think that a certain someone may be positioning himself to take over if Boris is pushed out.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m not 100% sure. But I think that a certain someone may be positioning himself to take over if Boris is pushed out.
		
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Mr Gove should learn from history. 

The Tories tend to turn against any coup leader. Remember Heseltine post Thatcher.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I didn't see it but read that Gove's defence this morning was "weak".
		
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I listened to that of IDS, and he went right down the Trumpian route - it’s all the fault of China and doubting the political impartiality of the unnamed source.  Well thats just great. Nothing to do with our own handling of it - good to know 🙁

Where was Boris these 5 COBRA meetings? Doesn’t matter says IDS - PMs delegate as he did.  Except we are seeing through the briefings in his absence an apparent unwillingness of a cabinet to make any significant decisions about anything - any of us could have made the decision to extend lockdown...but without BJ...? I am not sure that we are not on a fairly rudderless ship at the moment specifically on PPE and Testing.

And let’s not forget that Johnson disappeared for two weeks in that critical period.  What was he doing at Chevening...?

I actually feel very sorry for Hancock at the moment. He didn’t want the job - and he has been lumbered with what now seems to be a bit of an albatross of 100,000 tests a day by end April, and we see how well that that is going.  I don’t have the benefit of a time machine to look into the past but I suspect that it was not he who came up with that number.

It is an unfortunate state of affairs that we find that we have a cabinet chosen on the basis of their willingness to swear absolute fealty to Boris Johnson in respect of B.  As a result many very competent Tory ex-ministers have retired or are watching from the sides as less competent or less experienced colleagues do their best...

And so we have Gavin Williamson doing the briefing today...

I note that though I have not read the ST piece - I heard all about it on the radio first thing and have the newspaper sitting in front of me to be read.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I listened to that of IDS, and he went right down the Trumpian route - it’s all the fault of China and doubting the political impartiality of the unnamed source.  Well thats just great. Nothing to do with our own handling of it - good to know 🙁

Where was Boris these 5 COBRA meetings? Doesn’t matter says IDS - PMs delegate as he did.  Except we are seeing through the briefings in his absence an apparent unwillingness of a cabinet to make any significant decisions about anything - any of us could have made the decision to extend lockdown...but without BJ...? I am not sure that we are not on a fairly rudderless ship at the moment specifically on PPE and Testing.

And let’s not forget that Johnson disappeared for two weeks in that critical period.  What was he doing at Chevening...?

I actually feel very sorry for Hancock at the moment. He didn’t want the job - and he has been lumbered with what now seems to be a bit of an albatross of 100,000 tests a day by end April, and we see how well that that is going.  I don’t have the benefit of a time machine to look into the past but I suspect that it was not he who came up with that number.

It is an unfortunate state of affairs that we find that we have a cabinet chosen on the basis of their willingness to swear absolute fealty to Boris Johnson in respect of B.  As a result many very competent Tory ex-ministers have retired or are watching from the sides as less competent or less experienced colleagues do their best...

And so we have Gavin Williamson doing the briefing today...

I note that though I have not read the ST piece - I heard all about it on the radio first thing and have the newspaper sitting in front of me to be read.
		
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On the issue of Johnson going missing for two weeks in that critical period. Two things; the govt had chosen its path, which its since realised was wrong and changed tack. And hindsight has determined it was a critical period.

There were missed opportunities, and some things might need to change going forward. Lets ask the questions and keep the govt focussed but do we have to have a with hunt now?

Hogie, didn't you say that in the main you agree with and support what the govt is trying to do. And now they're a bunch of yes-men...bit like Mary Poppins waiting for the wind to change?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 19, 2020)

In America, this issue is following political ideology almost perfectly.

Progressive liberals want a very conservative approach to going back to work. (I'm grateful to be never going back to work!)

Conservatives want an aggressive approach to re-opening the economy.

Thre is no such thing as a general consensus in the United States.  

I'm at a loss as to how the republic has survived [sort of] so far.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Immunity not anonymity.

If a whistleblower comes forward with genuine evidence (not just an unverified opinion) they should not have to fear for any retribution.
		
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Unless the accusations are false.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

I didn't bother reading once I reached the bit that said Hancock "bounced out of Downing St." Nowt like adding a bit of emotive spin to push the issue...


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Thre is no such thing as a general consensus in the United States.
		
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We are a fraction of your size and probably the only time there has been a general consensus in this country was 1939 to 1945 if my history is correct your country could not even get a general consensus then.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2020)

There are very many interesting and important points in the article that will need answering or addressing but my biggest problem is that it lacks any kind of balance. For example, the fact that we sent 279000 items of PPE to China to assist them with fighting the virus might very well be correct, but it is a useless figure unless they also record how many items of PPE we have received from China in return.

And Owen Jones hasn't just provided the info he's also put his own spin on it. His quote "By late January, the seriousness of the virus was clear, as was the fact it was going to imminently arrive on British shores" seems reasonable but to back up this point he's used a "study by Southampton Uni" that showed that "190000 people flew in to the UK from Wuhan and other high-risk Chinese cities between January and March." Now I've got no problem with him saying that by late January the risk was clear, if he provided evidence of that, but he can't support that point with a study that didn't end until March.


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## bobmac (Apr 19, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			So feel free to discuss PPE and who's right and wrong to your heart's content *BELOW* - please...pretty please.
		
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Nice try Amanda


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			We are a fraction of your size and probably the only time there has been a general consensus in this country was 1939 to 1945 if my history is correct your country could not even get a general consensus then.
		
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We got mostly a consensus!   But you're right. Certain right wing elements and anti-semites even opposed that most necessary of all wars.
We didn't jump in until all three axis powers declared war on us...but I'm afraid you already know that.

My mom slept with a man who killed Nazis.  That alone made her a cool broad in my eyes.  And that's why I'm here. 
.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 19, 2020)

I'm glad that you didn't that as a cheap shot at the good people of Germany, Blue in Munich.  
It certainly wasn't anything like that.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 19, 2020)

Response to the Times article......

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/


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## fundy (Apr 19, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Response to the Times article......

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/

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certainly makes interesting reading and casts a different perspective on many of the claims (without even touching on the personal digs)


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## User62651 (Apr 20, 2020)

With an invisible PM unable to address the press article directly makes this matter a problem. The main sticking points seems to be PM missing 5 Cobra meets wrt corona and ignoring clear warnings and lack of preparedness. We just can't imagine former PMs doing that, reinforces some stereotypes of Johnson as gung ho and lazy.
Govt are taking stick from all sides day after day now when before they had  decent support and I think any sense of UK pulling together through this will be if not in spite of Govt certainly not because of Govt. Leadership hasn't been great, maybe just ok.Confidence in leadership is a bit wobbly this weekend, need a PM back front and centre taking control asap.
Even Daily Mail putting the boot into govt with Mondays 'Betrayal' headline wrt PPE chaos, that is surprising.
I guess right wing press know Tories are safe in Govt so are ok criticising for now.


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## Kellfire (Apr 20, 2020)

Imagine thinking that this pandemic could be separated from politics. Surely only a delusional Tory could think that way at this stage.


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## rulefan (Apr 20, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			With an invisible PM unable to address the press article directly makes this matter a problem. The main sticking points seems to be PM missing 5 Cobra meets wrt corona and ignoring clear warnings and lack of preparedness. We just can't imagine former PMs doing that, reinforces some stereotypes of Johnson as gung ho and lazy.
		
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The PM does not attend most COBR meetings


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			This one is a strange complaint. Seems to me that a humanitarian gesture like this when China was in need and it hadn't yet reached us was the correct approach. Countries need to work together or we'll never get through this.
		
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The Government response, if correct, certainly addresses The Times' point, and potentially shows China in a different light;

*Claim* - The government sent 279,000 items of its depleted stockpile of protective equipment to China during this period in response to a request for help from the authorities there.

*Response* - The equipment was not from the pandemic stockpile. We provided this equipment to China at the height of their need and China has since reciprocated our donation many times over. Between April 2-April 15 we have received over 12 million pieces of PPE in the UK from China.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 20, 2020)

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...er-claims-it-sleepwalked-into-crisis-11975703

Make of this what you will


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## rulefan (Apr 20, 2020)

*Claim -*  It was unusual for the Prime Minister to be absent from COBR and is normally chaired by the Prime Minister.

*Response -* This is wrong. It is entirely normal and proper for COBR to be chaired by the relevant Secretary of State. 

Isn't the point of a ministerial structure 'delegation'? Isn't that ministers are there for?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The PM does not attend most COBR meetings
		
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Which is true, but surely a world wide pandemic is not a 'normal' occurrence and as leader of the UK he should have been.......leading.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Imagine thinking that this pandemic could be separated from politics. Surely only a delusional Tory could think that way at this stage.
		
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Not with people thinking like you are on this. Politics, as most understand it in this Country, is the Government making policy for the people , in general, (they say.)🙄
 The opposition rightly on many occasions, tell the government and the nation, via media, that that is not so, the policies are just for their own , and to the detriment of most people.
Both use lots of spin, emphasis, and tell porkies. It becomes almost a game, with a lot of individual career pushing etc.
In all this, not a lot gets done, but there's lots of point scoring and careers are like a game of snakes and ladders.
That's politics.
However, when there is a war, that stops largely and responsible people try together to protect the nation.
And that is what should be happening now in this Corona virus crisis.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2020)

Hill farmers for the NHS

https://news.stv.tv/video/farmers-use-flock-of-sheep-in-message-of-support-to-nhs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

I've now read the article in the ST - it does not paint a pretty picture.

I also read another lengthy article - this one by Tim Shipman - which concludes...

_'It would have taken the prime minister only a few calls to realise his colleagues have left the driver's seat vacant'_

And the two leader pieces. The first headed. *Silence is not acceptable - ministers must tell us the plan *which concludes...

_'It is a plan...but it is said to be waiting the return to work of Boris Johnson, without whom decisions are not being taken.  That is wrong.  We have a system of cabinet government, not a presidency or dictatorship'_

And the second headed.* Business is too weak for a second wave of Brexit dogma *which concludes...

_'...poll of more than 2,0000 shows that...voters think the transition should be extended. They recognise that there are other priorities now and so should the government.  It is it's reputation that will suffer from this dogmatism.  Somebody needs to knock heads together.  And fast._

All of the above quoted from the Sunday Times - a Tory and Brexit supporting newspaper.  Whether I agree or disagree is another matter, so don't bother pushing back on me for the words of the Sunday Times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			On the issue of Johnson going missing for two weeks in that critical period. Two things; the govt had chosen its path, which its since realised was wrong and changed tack. And hindsight has determined it was a critical period.

There were missed opportunities, and some things might need to change going forward. Lets ask the questions and keep the govt focussed but do we have to have a with hunt now?

Hogie, didn't you say that in the main you agree with and support what the govt is trying to do. And now they're a bunch of yes-men...bit like Mary Poppins waiting for the wind to change?
		
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I do - I support what the government is currently doing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The PM does not attend most COBR meetings
		
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In normal times.  These are not normal times.  And they were not normal times back late Jan and Feb.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 20, 2020)

I see Tony Blair is sticking his big nose/mouth in once more wanting "specialist czars" in charge of different areas.  So basically another level of top bureaucracy and gimmicks to whatever the Government is already doing.   Thanks Blair - stick to living on your millions and sod off.


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## Kellfire (Apr 20, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I see Tony Blair is sticking his big nose/mouth in once more wanting "specialist czars" in charge of different areas.  So basically another level of top bureaucracy and gimmicks to whatever the Government is already doing.   Thanks Blair - stick to living on your millions and sod off.
		
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Yea we should definitely ignore expert advice and operate as we have been, with little real intervention from the top but with badges to say what a good job we’re all doing.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 20, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I see Tony Blair is sticking his big nose/mouth in once more wanting "specialist czars" in charge of different areas.  So basically another level of top bureaucracy and gimmicks to whatever the Government is already doing.   Thanks Blair - stick to living on your millions and sod off.
		
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Nice and measured response, thanks for that.
Maybe it's worth discussing as an option as this pandemic is all consuming for government. It could maybe bring some governance from those with more relevant experience and free some in government up for strategizing how the UK will look post corona. 
I don't really have an opinion either way but rather than playing the man discuss the concept?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've now read the article in the ST - it does not paint a pretty picture.

I also read another lengthy article - this one by Tim Shipman - which concludes...

_'It would have taken the prime minister only a few calls to realise his colleagues have left the driver's seat vacant'_

And the two leader pieces. The first headed. *Silence is not acceptable - ministers must tell us the plan *which concludes...

_'It is a plan...but it is said to be waiting the return to work of Boris Johnson, without whom decisions are not being taken.  That is wrong.  We have a system of cabinet government, not a presidency or dictatorship'_

And the second headed.* Business is too weak for a second wave of Brexit dogma *which concludes...

_'...poll of more than 2,0000 shows that...voters think the transition should be extended. They recognise that there are other priorities now and so should the government.  It is it's reputation that will suffer from this dogmatism.  Somebody needs to knock heads together.  And fast._

All of the above quoted from the Sunday Times - a Tory and Brexit supporting newspaper.  Whether I agree or disagree is another matter, so don't bother pushing back on me for the words of the Sunday Times.
		
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IOW. -"you may think that, I couldn't possibly comment"


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yea we should definitely ignore *expert advice *and operate as we have been, with little real intervention from the top but with badges to say what a good job we’re all doing.
		
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Do the Tories require any documents to be sexed up then?


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## Golfmmad (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've now read the article in the ST - it does not paint a pretty picture.

I also read another lengthy article - this one by Tim Shipman - which concludes...

_'It would have taken the prime minister only a few calls to realise his colleagues have left the driver's seat vacant'_

And the two leader pieces. The first headed. *Silence is not acceptable - ministers must tell us the plan *which concludes...

_'It is a plan...but it is said to be waiting the return to work of Boris Johnson, without whom decisions are not being taken.  That is wrong.  We have a system of cabinet government, not a presidency or dictatorship'_

And the second headed.* Business is too weak for a second wave of Brexit dogma *which concludes...

_'...poll of more than 2,0000 shows that...voters think the transition should be extended. They recognise that there are other priorities now and so should the government.  It is it's reputation that will suffer from this dogmatism.  Somebody needs to knock heads together.  And fast._

All of the above quoted from the Sunday Times - a Tory and Brexit supporting newspaper.  Whether I agree or disagree is another matter, so don't bother pushing back on me for the words of the Sunday Times.
		
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Did you also read the response from the Government that Colchester posted?
That response is good enough for me, especially when the original ST article was full of HINDSIGHT!


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## User62651 (Apr 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Mr Gove should learn from history. 

The Tories tend to turn against any coup leader. Remember Heseltine post Thatcher.
		
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What, like how they did when Johnson went for and removed both Cameron and then May🧐
What goes around comes around.....hopefully.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			Did you also read the response from the Government that Colchester posted?
That response is good enough for me, especially when the original ST article was full of HINDSIGHT!
		
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I said that I read the ST articles and the Leaders.

None of it was particularly positive or supportive of our PM or the current government.

I have not made any comment on whether or not I think both main articles and the leader commentaries were reasonable or not.

If you haven't managed to read the paper - the ST criticism was not all about our PMs response and leadership since January.  The Insight team article was about that; the Shipman piece was about the cabinet and it's decision making without Johnson; one of the leaders was about an Exit Plan; the second leader was about Brexit Transition.

And all of that in one edition of a Tory Party and Brexit supporting newspaper.  And even the Daily Mail is making similar comments on some of it.  Before long someone will be telling us that it's all all Fake News from the lying and anti-Conservative MSM...

There was another article in the paper about government plans for opening schools (in some way, shape or form) from 11th May.  In yesterday's briefing Gavin Williamson denied there was any such date being considered.  It might be pencilled-in and subject to a load of caveats - and we can all get that - but he seemed to deny there was any such date in mind.  End of.

I just read what was written and thought it didn't sound great.  And then I wondered where the ST got the 11th May date from if it isn't even being considered.  Anyway.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2020)

Can't help feeling we'd be better off with Ms May still at the helm...


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I said that I read the ST articles and the Leaders. 

None of it was particularly positive or supportive of our PM or the current government.

I have not made any comment on whether or not I think both main articles and the leader commentary were reasonable or not. 

They was not all about our PMs response and leadership since January.  The Insight team article was; the Shipman piece was about the cabinet and it's decision making without Johnson; one of the leaders was about an Exit Plan; the second leader was about Brexit Transition.

And all of that in one edition of a Tory Party and Brexit supporting newspaper.  And even the Daily Mail is making similar comments on some of it.  Before long someone will be telling us that it's all all Fake News from the lying and anti-democratic MSM...

I just read what was written and wondered.
		
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One assumes you can't be bothered to read the Government  response. Let's take a paper, one that on the same day lied about the availableity of the Veterans help line, as good and true facts.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't help feeling we'd be better off with Ms May still at the helm...
		
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😱😱😱😱😱😱

Or is that one of those quotes where someone adds 'said no one, ever'


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			😱😱😱😱😱😱

Or is that one of those quotes where someone adds 'said no one, ever'
		
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Well, I feel her top priority wasn't herself... And, we wouldn't be having to put up with Gavin Williamson...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			One assumes you can't be bothered to read the Government  response. Let's take a paper, one that on the same day lied about the availableity of the Veterans help line, as good and true facts.
		
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See what you are doing - you doing exactly what happened when Owen Jones tweeted a link to the article.  You are attacking the messenger rather than responding to the criticism across a number of fronts that has been made in a Tory Party and Brexit supporting newspaper, and you are also dismissing the newspaper as being untrustworthy on the basis of a historic and completely unrelated piece of journalism.

I have made absolutely no comment whatsoever on the criticism other than pointing out the denial by Williamson on the 11th May date.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I said that I read the ST articles and the Leaders.

None of it was particularly positive or supportive of our PM or the current government.

I have not made any comment on whether or not I think both main articles and the leader commentaries were reasonable or not.

If you haven't managed to read the paper - the ST criticism was not all about our PMs response and leadership since January.  The Insight team article was about that; the Shipman piece was about the cabinet and it's decision making without Johnson; one of the leaders was about an Exit Plan; the second leader was about Brexit Transition.

And all of that in one edition of a Tory Party and Brexit supporting newspaper.  And even the Daily Mail is making similar comments on some of it.  Before long someone will be telling us that it's all all Fake News from the lying and anti-Conservative MSM...

There was another article in the paper about government plans for opening schools (in some way, shape or form) from 11th May.  In yesterday's briefing Gavin Williamson denied there was any such date being considered.  It might be pencilled-in and subject to a load of caveats - and we can all get that - but he seemed to deny there was any such date in mind.  End of.

I just read what was written and thought it didn't sound great.  And then I wondered where the ST got the 11th May date from if it isn't even being considered.  Anyway.
		
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But you did say, "It does not paint a pretty picture".
I did read the full St article but not the others you mentioned. If they were anything like the original then I wouldn't be interested in reading them. 
To be honest I'm so annoyed at all the negative media comments, including some posts on here when we are dealing with such an unprecedented situation that we are all in right now. 
I notice that after yesterday's briefing that nobody has mentioned the full and factual responses that Jenny Harries gave to two of the female journalists. She gave such a clear and informative reply to both questions. It left me thinking that there really is a whole lot going on behind the scenes that we have no idea of what is actually involved in the learning and information gathering that goes on. It was a real eye opener for me.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			See what you are doing - you doing exactly what happened when Owen Jones tweeted a link to the article.  You are attacking the messenger rather than responding to the criticism across a number of fronts that has been made in a Tory Party and Brexit supporting newspaper, and you are also dismissing the newspaper as being untrustworthy on the basis of a historic and completely unrelated piece of journalism.

I have made absolutely no comment whatsoever on the criticism other than pointing out the denial by Williamson on the 11th May date.
		
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So are you saying that you believe in its entirety the contents of the ST  article?

And whilst the paper did endorse the Conservatives at the last election,  that was due to the party's stance on Brexit. 

It would be wrong to claim that the Sunday Times  is or ever has been an unquestioning supporter of the  Tories.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So are you saying that you believe in its entirety the contents of the ST  article?

And whilst the paper did endorse the Conservatives at the last election,  that was due to the party's stance on Brexit. 

It would be wrong to claim that the Sunday Times  is or ever has been an unquestioning supporter of the  Tories.
		
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Rather think any publication that gives space to Rod Liddle and Clarkson can't be anything other than a Tory mouthpiece...

Though, to be fair, they did publish a letter from Alan Johnson yesterday...


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In normal times.  These are not normal times.  And they were not normal times back late Jan and Feb.
		
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Is this the Jan & Feb when the WHO were saying they thought it was an epidemic and not a pandemic and there was major flooding in the north affecting people's lives.


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			See what you are doing - you doing exactly what happened when Owen Jones tweeted a link to the article.  You are attacking the messenger rather than responding to the criticism across a number of fronts that has been made in a Tory Party and Brexit supporting newspaper, and you are also dismissing the newspaper as being untrustworthy on the basis of a historic and completely unrelated piece of journalism.

I have made absolutely no comment whatsoever on the criticism other than pointing out the denial by Williamson on the 11th May date.
		
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I am attacking the messenger as it was a message that didn't need delivering as you couldn't be bothered to publish the counter to the article.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 20, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			But you did say, "It does not paint a pretty picture".
I did read the full St article but not the others you mentioned. If they were anything like the original then I wouldn't be interested in reading them.
To be honest I'm so annoyed at all the negative media comments, including some posts on here when we are dealing with such an unprecedented situation that we are all in right now.
I notice that after yesterday's briefing that nobody has mentioned the full and factual responses that Jenny Harries gave to two of the female journalists. She gave such a clear and informative reply to both questions. It left me thinking that there really is a whole lot going on behind the scenes that we have no idea of what is actually involved in the learning and information gathering that goes on. It was a real eye opener for me.
		
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Exactly!  My feelings too. There was oblique inference in your post, SILH, which prompted my IOW response which I'm not sure you understood 😀


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The government are still making political decisions that IMO are contrary to the good of the country and need to be challenged.

Day to day operational matters are different and, for those, they need help and support.
		
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Please  clarify


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## Kellfire (Apr 20, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252266724449230848
More indefensible actions from the government.


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The government are still making political decisions that IMO are contrary to the good of the country and need to be challenged.

Day to day operational matters are different and, for those, they need help and support.
		
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I think I'd argue that there are some things that need changing, e.g. an extension to the transition period. However, I'd say that the UK govt, a Tory govt at that, has put together a very impressive number of packages to support individuals and businesses through unprecedented times.

No doubt they'll miss some things but I feel they'll also hit some tough targets too.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252266724449230848
More indefensible actions from the government.
		
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Whatever the rights or wrongs of the Government currently, that is absolutely shocking (if proven - and it looks fairly damning). Heads must roll for that, if nothing else.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly!  My feelings too. There was oblique inference in your post, SILH, which prompted my IOW response which I'm not sure you understood 😀
		
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I didn’t understand what IOW meant - i still don’t.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 21, 2020)

Isle of Wight
Obviously 😎😎


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I am attacking the messenger as it was a message that didn't need delivering as you couldn't be bothered to publish the counter to the article.
		
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The reason the articles needing highlighting is the newspaper they were in.  If they were in the Observer then sure - well it would say that.  But they weren’t - and it was not a single article.  They were not all about Johnson. And they were in a Tory supporting newspaper.

And as I was very deliberately NOT taking a position why should I go looking for government response.  Others can do that if they so wish.  There has been a response to the main article.  I have read and valid points are made. What about the Leader comments on an Exit Plan and the Brexit transition?


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## rosecott (Apr 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn’t understand what IOW meant - i still don’t.
		
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The biter bit - you are one of the worst offenders - see my post on random irritations - https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/random-irritations-of-the-day.97913/page-634#post-2154736


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The biter bit - you are one of the worst offenders - see my post on random irritations - https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/random-irritations-of-the-day.97913/page-634#post-2154736

Click to expand...

I think I got the gist of what was implied by IOW (by posting a point of view expressed by another then I agree with the POV even if I do not make any such comment) but not sure whether the post was in support of what was thought to be implied by my post or opposed to it.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252266724449230848
More indefensible actions from the government.
		
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bluewolf said:



			Whatever the rights or wrongs of the Government currently, that is absolutely shocking (if proven - and it looks fairly damning). Heads must roll for that, if nothing else.
		
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I don't know whether the Tweet is authentic or not, nor am I too fussed in debating the content. However, I will make an observation and ask a rhetorical question or two.

Double bluff/fake accounts, some originating from Russia, are not unheard of. And if this is genuinely from the Tory party, why aren't Labour screaming from the roof tops? The fact that Labour aren't making hay out of this says something too. There was a dodgy Tweet before the last election, which the Tories were nailed forby the main stream media, inc the BBC. Why isn't this one receiving the same treatment?

I prefer to get my news from trusted sources, and I don't consider Twitter to be one of them. If a mainstream, trusted source picks this up, runs with it and proves it lets all grab our pitch forks but until then...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I see Tony Blair is sticking his big nose/mouth in once more wanting "specialist czars" in charge of different areas.  So basically another level of top bureaucracy and gimmicks to whatever the Government is already doing.   Thanks Blair - stick to living on your millions and sod off.
		
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Oh aye. is that not just what this government has done re NHS procurement, or is that different.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't know whether the Tweet is authentic or not, nor am I too fussed in debating the content. However, I will make an observation and ask a rhetorical question or two.

Double bluff/fake accounts, some originating from Russia, are not unheard of. And if this is genuinely from the Tory party, why aren't Labour screaming from the roof tops? The fact that Labour aren't making hay out of this says something too. There was a dodgy Tweet before the last election, which the Tories were nailed forby the main stream media, inc the BBC. Why isn't this one receiving the same treatment?

I prefer to get my news from trusted sources, and I don't consider Twitter to be one of them. If a mainstream, trusted source picks this up, runs with it and proves it lets all grab our pitch forks but until then...
		
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Some good points, and exactly why I qualified my post..

However, the fact that it broke on Twitter is not uncommon. Whether we like it or not, Twitter is now the main source of news for millions of people. Journalists from the MSM down to the single person blogger use Twitter to highlight stories before they break. Just look at the use of Twitter to highlight the recent ST condemnation of the Governments handling of the Covid crisis so far. Also, many MSM journalists are now freelance and use Twitter to bring attention to a story they are working on so that it is then picked up by the MSM.

I agree that it's going to be interesting to see where this story goes. It's picking up traction currently after only really breaking last night (after the Papers would have gone to print).
Edit... For anyone who hasn't read the "article". It's *alleging* that someone at the DoHSC has set up approximately 140 fake accounts pretending to be NHS staff, then used these accounts to claim that everything is fine. They've used real staff images and details without their consent.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The reason the articles needing highlighting is the newspaper they were in.  If they were in the Observer then sure - well it would say that.  But they weren’t - and it was not a single article.  They were not all about Johnson. And they were in a Tory supporting newspaper.

And as I was very deliberately NOT taking a position why should I go looking for government response.  Others can do that if they so wish.  There has been a response to the main article.  I have read and valid points are made. What about the Leader comments on an Exit Plan and the Brexit transition?
		
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You do it all the time, publish something that is damning the current government which wasn't your choice and then come up with the not me guv response. Perhaps you should change your barber.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh aye. is that not just what this government has done re NHS procurement, or is that different.

Click to expand...

NHS Scotland is under the Scottish Government, you need to complain to them.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

So just where is the PPE that was announced in Saturday's Downing Street briefing that was due on Sunday? Stories emerging that the Minister responsible for the briefing on Saturday lied... or was it misspoke? Reports emerging that it wasn't even ordered at that point.

Reports emerging in the English speaking Spanish media that the Turkish government is up in arms about the strong arm tactics for an order that wasn't even placed till yesterday. And the RAF aircraft that was sent to get it, when was it sent? 

If, as is being mooted, the Minister went off piste in the briefing; I hope loopy Laura K asks some very pointed questions.


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## Imurg (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So just where is the PPE that was announced in Saturday's Downing Street briefing that was due on Sunday? Stories emerging that the Minister responsible for the briefing on Saturday lied... or was it misspoke? Reports emerging that it wasn't even ordered at that point.

Reports emerging in the English speaking Spanish media that the Turkish government is up in arms about the strong arm tactics for an order that wasn't even placed till yesterday. And the RAF aircraft that was sent to get it, when was it sent?

If, as is being mooted, the Minister went off piste in the briefing; I hope loopy Laura K asks some very pointed questions.
		
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Like " when will the lockdown end"...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So just where is the PPE that was announced in Saturday's Downing Street briefing that was due on Sunday? Stories emerging that the Minister responsible for the briefing on Saturday lied... or was it misspoke? Reports emerging that it wasn't even ordered at that point.

Reports emerging in the English speaking Spanish media that the Turkish government is up in arms about the strong arm tactics for an order that wasn't even placed till yesterday. And the RAF aircraft that was sent to get it, when was it sent?

If, as is being mooted, the Minister went off piste in the briefing; I hope loopy Laura K asks some very pointed questions.
		
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The RAF C140 took off on Monday to Turkey to pick up gowns and PPE 

Was expected back today


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The RAF C140 took off on Monday to Turkey to pick up gowns and PPE

Was expected back today
		
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That's if the PPE is still available.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			That's if the PPE is still available.
		
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ns-pieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/

Who knows - but it seems the Telegraph are saying we are shipping PPE out of the country


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ns-pieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/

Who knows - but it seems the Telegraph are saying we are shipping PPE out of the country
		
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I dont think the NHS have shortages of masks or respirators so if hospitals in the EU do it's good that we are helping them. Is it not?


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ns-pieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/

Who knows - but it seems the Telegraph are saying we are shipping PPE out of the country
		
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Could be specific items that we can share out, who knows. Untill reporters ask sensible questions at the daily brief we won't know untill the wash up.

I would like to know if Trusts are short, why aren't the trusts named and why aren't there CEOs on the box complaining.

What company's are not getting responses from the government when they are offering PPE, I would have thought company bosses would be on the media giving it large.

What really went on with the Turkey affair.

Why is the take up really not working on testing. Looks like the government will be very close to hitting the testing TARGET but that's completely different from tests done which the media don't appear to grasp.


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## rosecott (Apr 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252266724449230848
More indefensible actions from the government.
		
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I find it very strange that the entirety of the British media has failed to bring these indefensible actions to the attention of the British public. Is there a conspiracy?


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So just where is the PPE that was announced in Saturday's Downing Street briefing that was due on Sunday? Stories emerging that the Minister responsible for the briefing on Saturday lied... or was it misspoke? Reports emerging that it wasn't even ordered at that point.

Reports emerging in the English speaking Spanish media that the Turkish government is up in arms about the strong arm tactics for an order that wasn't even placed till yesterday. And the RAF aircraft that was sent to get it, when was it sent?

If, as is being mooted, the Minister went off piste in the briefing; I hope loopy Laura K asks some very pointed questions.
		
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Hang on Bri. This is wartime remember. Loose lips sink ships and all that. We’re not here to criticise. And what are your sources? Is it some damn lefty again? Then bloody smelly lefties just want us all to die. 😉😉😉


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I find it very strange that the entirety of the British media has failed to bring these indefensible actions to the attention of the British public. Is there a conspiracy?
		
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Perhaps is not true, who knows?


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I find it very strange that the entirety of the British media has failed to bring these indefensible actions to the attention of the British public. Is there a conspiracy?
		
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Probably because the journalist/investigator of this story only part-leaked it late last night with the proviso that the data was still being analysed as it was very data heavy. He has stated several times that he wants to “gold plate” it for us non geeks so as to avoid it being steamrollered by vested interests. 

Or, it could be bollocks. No one quite knows yet so it’s not being pounced on just yet 👍


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Hang on Bri. This is wartime remember. Loose lips sink ships and all that. We’re not here to criticise. And what are your sources? Is it some damn lefty again? Then bloody smelly lefties just want us all to die. 😉😉😉
		
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Sssh! If I tell you I'll have to kill you.

That aside, I came off the phone about 45 mins back after speaking to a senior sister in an ITU not a million miles away from Homer. I asked about PPE. They have everything they need but the masks are uncomfortable for a full 14 hour shift. She's gone out and bought her own... sounds like the troops in Iraq.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sssh! If I tell you I'll have to kill you.

That aside, I came off the phone about 45 mins back after speaking to a senior sister in an ITU not a million miles away from Homer. I asked about PPE. They have everything they need but the masks are uncomfortable for a full 14 hour shift. She's gone out and bought her own... sounds like the troops in Iraq.
		
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We were buying our own kit long before Iraq


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sssh! If I tell you I'll have to kill you.

That aside, I came off the phone about 45 mins back after speaking to a senior sister in an ITU not a million miles away from Homer. I asked about PPE. They have everything they need but the masks are uncomfortable for a full 14 hour shift. She's gone out and bought her own... sounds like the troops in Iraq.
		
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They look incredibly uncomfortable and I saw a picture of two nurses coming off duty and their faces were so red and sore looking from them.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Probably because the journalist/investigator of this story only part-leaked it late last night with the proviso that the data was still being analysed as it was very data heavy. He has stated several times that he wants to “gold plate” it for us non geeks so as to avoid it being steamrollered by vested interests.

Or, it could be bollocks. No one quite knows yet so it’s not being pounced on just yet 👍
		
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Is it just me, am I the only person that thinks Mr O'Connell may have taken someone's bait.

The dodgy tweet he quoted  included #BANTHECLAP. Really?

Interestingly The Independent, a publication not renowned for its support of the Government, seems more than a little sceptical. 

We shall have to see if he produces any evidence to support his story.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Is it just me, am I the only person that thinks Mr O'Connell may have taken someone's bait.

The dodgy tweet he quoted  included #BANTHECLAP. Really?

Interestingly The Independent, a publication not renowned for its support of the Government, seems more than a little sceptical.

We shall have to see if he produces any evidence to support his story.
		
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Very possibly 👍


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## drdel (Apr 21, 2020)

On PPE...

Government looking to sources of raw materials and makers who can produce at scale.

Many of the UK companies in the press that are complaing about applying to supply are too small and /or are new starups acting as middle men operating on a wing and a prayer.

Suppliers need to have the capability in their supply chain for millions of SKU's per week.

The EU consortium the UK was asked to join has not shipped any items.


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## Fish (Apr 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We were buying our own kit long before Iraq
		
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I was buying from Silvermans in the 70’s, sewed in seams on all my trousers, NI boots & gloves before my first tour but we used them for UN in Cyprus as std gear was heavy and sore.


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## Fish (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			They look incredibly uncomfortable and I saw a picture of two nurses coming off duty and their faces were so red and sore looking from them.
		
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Here’s a trick for them.....

Buy a head sweatband, sew 2 large buttons on each side, then instead of hooking the ties over the ears, which become sore, hook them on the buttons 👍


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

Fish said:



			I was buying from Silvermans in the 70’s, sewed in seams on all my trousers, NI boots & gloves before my first tour but we used them for UN in Cyprus as std gear was heavy and sore.
		
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NI patrol boots, best thing ever to come out if it kit wise.


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## User62651 (Apr 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			The EU consortium the UK was asked to join has not shipped any items.
		
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I think today's stooshie was more about Gove lying about the reason for not joining with EU on this some weeks ago if the FCO guy is right. Seems for this Govt anything that could be seen as a reliance on the EU, no matter how small, even in a global crisis, is an instant no no, no matter if British lives depended on it, that's purely political because of the B word and a pretty awful move too. It is unsurprising sadly but where the UK has fallen to.


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## drdel (Apr 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I think today's stooshie was more about Gove lying about the reason for not joining with EU on this some weeks ago if the FCO guy is right. Seems for this Govt anything that could be seen as a reliance on the EU, no matter how small, even in a global crisis, is an instant no no, no matter if British lives depended on it, that's purely political because of the B word and a pretty awful move too. It is unsurprising sadly but where the UK has fallen to.
		
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I think you're looking for stuff that ain't there: the UK is an associate member of the EU consortium. The consortium has not yet managed to ship any items.


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## User62651 (Apr 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think you're looking for stuff that ain't there: the UK is an associate member of the EU consortium. The consortium has not yet managed to ship any items.
		
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Rumour is the FCO guy is now writing to retract what he said earlier, if true clearly got at by Cumming's enforcers.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Rumour is the FCO guy is now writing to retract what he said earlier, if true clearly got at by Cumming's enforcers.
		
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Senior simple servant wouldn't be bothered by the likes of Cummings


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252266724449230848
More indefensible actions from the government.
		
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Not yet proven then, even by independent organizations 

https://fullfact.org/online/evidence-network-fake-nhs-tweets/


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## User62651 (Apr 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Senior simple servant wouldn't be bothered by the likes of Cummings
		
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The letter is now out with 'clarification' but so is the original video by McDonald. Some kind of pressure applied from the top.
Hancock getting set up for the boot too, scapegoats required.
That's just regular politics of course but it's been a tough spell for Govt last wee while.
Maybe some vaccine positives thankfully.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			The letter is now out with 'clarification' but so is the original video by McDonald. Some kind of pressure applied from the top.
Hancock getting set up for the boot too, scapegoats required.
That's just regular politics of course but it's been a tough spell for Govt last wee while.
Maybe some vaccine positives thankfully.
		
Click to expand...

BBC seems to be missing out. The mastermind Laura twitted 40 min ok that they were still waiting for clarification.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not yet proven then, even by independent organizations

https://fullfact.org/online/evidence-network-fake-nhs-tweets/

Click to expand...

Yes, I covered that earlier in my response to Rosecott (I think). 

I have no idea if it’s true, but the response se from Fact-check doesn’t know if it’s true either.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Rumour is the FCO guy is now writing to retract what he said earlier, if true clearly got at by Cumming's enforcers.
		
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So I guess he couldnt have just got it wrong as that's what it looks like he's saying.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So I guess he couldnt have just got it wrong as that's what it looks like he's saying.
		
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There’s no defence. People in high office/position of authority when speaking to the public, under the circumstances should not being “getting things wrong”.


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## Wolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sssh! If I tell you I'll have to kill you.

That aside, I came off the phone about 45 mins back after speaking to a senior sister in an ITU not a million miles away from Homer. I asked about PPE. They have everything they need but the masks are uncomfortable for a full 14 hour shift. She's gone out and bought her own... sounds like the troops in Iraq.
		
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Before & after Iraq we always bought our kit regardless off issue kit being supplied. It simply wasn't good enough then or now quality wise for the punishment it goes through. I've got loads in my garage I could probably open my own surplus store.


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## Wolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Fish said:



			I was buying from Silvermans in the 70’s, sewed in seams on all my trousers, NI boots & gloves before my first tour but we used them for UN in Cyprus as std gear was heavy and sore.
		
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2000s issue kit still overly heavy and not durable. Only ever wore issue boots during basic and ceremonially. Always bought my own along with webbing, assault vests, bergans, pouches, canoe bags you name I've bought it 😂


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			There’s no defence. People in high office/position of authority when speaking to the public, under the circumstances should not being “getting things wrong”.
		
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I agree with you.  My point that was probably poorly made was the previous poster suggested rather than him getting his facts wrong pressure had been applied to him to say that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

I thought PMQs today was in many ways rather better than the usual baying and jeering mess.  

And without the heeeyah, heeeyah audience - it made the obligatory sycophantic dolly question, as is delivered to the PM, look rather pathetic - as we know that they are no matter who delivers them from whatever part of the house.

Did I think Starmer did well?  Well he did one heck of a lot better than Corbyn would have I am pretty sure of that.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 26, 2020)

The leftie rag Sunday Times advising Boris is under much pressure from party donors to ease the lockdown...


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## rudebhoy (Apr 26, 2020)

Pritti Patel boasting about a reduction in shoplifting since the lockdown. Surprised she didn't go on to tell us that trouble in pubs and clubs is also down.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Pritti Patel boasting about a reduction in shoplifting since the lockdown. Surprised she didn't go on to tell us that trouble in pubs and clubs is also down.
		
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Are you sure you're not underestimating the level of intelligence and depth of perception required to draw conclusions like that?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 26, 2020)

This is a comment that passed me by this week... From Michael O'Leary (Ryanair) "either the government pays for the middle seat or we don't fly"... Apparently, he believes keeping seats empty to ensure distancing is a ridiculous idea???


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Pritti Patel boasting about a reduction in shoplifting since the lockdown. Surprised she didn't go on to tell us that trouble in pubs and clubs is also down.
		
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Strangely she forgot to mention the shocking increase in knife crime figures in England.
Hmmmm…..  now who objected to the concept of this UK government having a grown up adult conversation with the public.


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## patricks148 (Apr 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Pritti Patel boasting about a reduction in shoplifting since the lockdown. Surprised she didn't go on to tell us that trouble in pubs and clubs is also down.
		
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supprised she didn't also mention  violence at football matches was down as well


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## patricks148 (Apr 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strangely she forgot to mention the shocking increase in knife crime figures in England.
Hmmmm…..  now who objected to the concept of this UK government having a grown up adult conversation with the public.
		
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give her credit though at least she managed to not smile when she read out the latest death toll


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## rudebhoy (Apr 26, 2020)

On 2nd April, Matt Hancock pledged the UK would be carrying out 100,000 tests a day by the end of the month. As of 24th April, the actual figure was 28,500. As we struggle to get anywhere near the target, talk of "capacity" has emerged over the last few days. This is now 51,000 apparently.

Call me cynical, but I'm willing to bet that "capacity" will magically be more 100,000 by the end of the month, with Hancock claiming he has achieved his goal, while the actual number of tests carried out will be far short of that target.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strangely she forgot to mention the shocking increase in knife crime figures in England.
Hmmmm…..  now who objected to the concept of this UK government having a grown up adult conversation with the public.
		
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And is Sturgeon currently talking about the rise in violent crime in Scotland. 

I would guess not as her briefings, like those from Downing Street, are on Governments' dealings with coronavirus.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And is Sturgeon currently talking about the rise in violent crime in Scotland. 

I would guess not as her briefings, like those from Downing Street, are on Governments' dealings with coronavirus.
		
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So why mention shoplifting figures then?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And is Sturgeon currently talking about the rise in violent crime in Scotland.

I would guess not as her briefings, like those from Downing Street, are on Governments' dealings with coronavirus.
		
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Strange post, given it was Patel that brought up shoplifting.

She also boasted that burglaries were down, funny that, with everyone being at home!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Strange post, given it was Patel that brought up shoplifting.

She also boasted that burglaries were down, funny that, with everyone being at home!
		
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Because she was specifically talking about the figures for the period of lockdown. 

As far as I am aware there is no equivalent information for knife crime.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Because she was specifically talking about the figures for the period of lockdown.

As far as I am aware there is no equivalent information for knife crime.
		
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Knife crime will obviously be down during the lockdown as there are a lot less people out and about. Domestic violence is up.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Knife crime will obviously be down during the lockdown as there are a lot less people out and about. Domestic violence is up.
		
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The rise in domestic violence seems, very sadly, to be inevitable (rather like the fall in shoplifting) and the Government has already acknowledged this.

I believe further support is being provided to the various bodies to deal with its consequences. 

However, trying to prevent it is a much longer term issue.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Knife crime will obviously be down during the lockdown as there are a lot less people out and about.
		
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Doon is implying it isn't...


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			This is a comment that passed me by this week... From Michael O'Leary (Ryanair) "either the government pays for the middle seat or we don't fly"... Apparently, he believes keeping seats empty to ensure distancing is a ridiculous idea???
		
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I suspect a chunk of that is about his model, same for all low cost airlines, which is occupancy rates. If he keeps the middle seats empty that may make the flight uneconomic. That would explain why he wants the govt to pay for the middle seat.

Equally, as a straight talker he points out people are in contact with each other in supermarkets, they will be close in the airport, they will be close when loading the plane. Keeping an empty seat seems a token gesture and he is pointing this out. I tend to agree with him on this, never thought I'd say that 😳


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## User62651 (Apr 26, 2020)

Boris back tomorrow, a long 'to do' list to sort out. Has been one Govt PR mess after another since he went down ill.

Interested to see if his outlook or demeanour has changed at all. He thought he was Clark Kent but now knows he isn't.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect a chunk of that is about his model, same for all low cost airlines, which is occupancy rates. If he keeps the middle seats empty that may make the flight uneconomic. That would explain why he wants the govt to pay for the middle seat.

Equally, as a straight talker he points out people are in contact with each other in supermarkets, they will be close in the airport, they will be close when loading the plane. Keeping an empty seat seems a token gesture and he is pointing this out. I tend to agree with him on this, never thought I'd say that 😳
		
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I feel the same! This is twice in the same week I’ve found myself agreeing with O’Leary, he was spot on in regards to Branson too!


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...son-of-trying-to-fleece-the-taxpayer-11978098


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

Some nasty spiteful comments about the government from some ths morning.  I guess its  a vent for their frustration.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strangely she forgot to mention the shocking increase in knife crime figures in England.
Hmmmm…..  now who objected to the concept of this UK government having a grown up adult conversation with the public.
		
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It's good to see some people still managing to get out and do some fishing 😜


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## MegaSteve (Apr 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect a chunk of that is about his model, same for all low cost airlines, which is occupancy rates. If he keeps the middle seats empty that may make the flight uneconomic. That would explain why he wants the govt to pay for the middle seat.

Equally, as a straight talker he points out people are in contact with each other in supermarkets, they will be close in the airport, they will be close when loading the plane. Keeping an empty seat seems a token gesture and he is pointing this out. I tend to agree with him on this, never thought I'd say that 😳
		
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To be a bit pedantic it's not government that'll be picking up the tab but the taxpayer... Can I should I be affording that post covid?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Some nasty spiteful comments about the government from some ths morning.  I guess its  a vent for their frustration.
		
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Has always been thus and will be forever so... Irrespective of which government or time...


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## rudebhoy (Apr 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Some nasty spiteful comments about the government from some ths morning.  I guess its  a vent for their frustration.
		
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Haven't seen any "nasty spiteful comments ", only people expressing their views on the government's performance, which is the whole point of this thread, is it not?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Haven't seen any "nasty spiteful comments ", only people expressing their views on the government's performance, which is the whole point of this thread, is it not?
		
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Really!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Doon is implying it isn't...
		
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Actually it was not ……...There was a headline that knife crime figures in England had reached it's highest recorded level.
Not sure about the period but would imagine it was for the past year.
Not 100% certain but I am pretty sure Patel did not mention this in her 'good news on crime figures for idiots speech'.

PS....Niclola Sturgeon's 'grown up adult conversation on lockdown'' seems to be the topic of the day with the UK media.
I must have heard it half a dozen times today already.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Actually it was not ……...There was a headline that knife crime figures in England had reached it's highest recorded level.
Not sure about the period but would imagine it was for the past year.
Not 100% certain but I am pretty sure Patel did not mention this in her 'good news on crime figures for idiots speech'.
		
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Even as anti government as I am, not really sure rise in knife crime over the last year (or whatever period the figures relate to) has any connection to the period of lockdown... Unless, of course, it's merely another opportunity for you to take a swipe against those of us south of the wall...


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			To be a bit pedantic it's not government that'll be picking up the tab but the taxpayer... Can I should I be affording that post covid?
		
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One and the same but I get your point. I think O'Leary said something along the lines of he wont fly with those restrictions or he will if the govt, whichever one, pays for the empty seats. He has been quite vociferous about airlines receiving state aid so he is not making a pitch for money, he wants to be able to sell all of his seats still. The line about making the govt, and so taxpayer 😁, pay was classic O'Leary grabbing a headline.

Incidentally, you are spot on, the knife crime figures are for 2019, nothing to do with the lockdown period.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Even as anti government as I am, not really sure rise in knife crime over the last year (or whatever period the figures relate to) has any connection to the period of lockdown... Unless, of course, it's merely another opportunity for you to take a swipe against those of us south of the wall...
		
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The knife crime figures were recently released...….I would have thought a proper Home Secretary would have at least commented on them and given some re-assurance as to what actions the government were taking to control the problem.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52395986


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## 2blue (Apr 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Some nasty spiteful comments about the government from some ths morning.  I guess its  a vent for their frustration.
		
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Pot, kettle.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The knife crime figures were recently released...….I would have thought a proper Home Secretary would have at least commented on them and given some re-assurance as to what actions the government were taking to control the problem.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52395986

Click to expand...

They're going to keep the 2m social distancing permanently. It's very difficult to stab someone from 2m away. 👍


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## Imurg (Apr 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			They're going to keep the 2m social distancing permanently. It's very difficult to stab someone from 2m away. 👍
		
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An increase in pitchfork crime..?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The knife crime figures were recently released...….I would have thought a proper Home Secretary would have at least commented on them and given some re-assurance as to what actions the government were taking to control the problem.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52395986

Click to expand...

The figures don't make for great reading... I'd far rather them be addressed as part of a standalone statement than buried within a statement addressing another on going matter...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

2blue said:



			Pot, kettle. 

Click to expand...

💖


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## fundy (Apr 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			An increase in pitchfork crime..?
		
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just ordered a variety of spears from Amazon


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 26, 2020)

Was one called Britney?


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2020)

Sorted my 2m social distancing...


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One and the same but I get your point. I think O'Leary said something along the lines of he wont fly with those restrictions or he will if the govt, whichever one, pays for the empty seats. He has been quite vociferous about airlines receiving state aid so he is not making a pitch for money, he wants to be able to sell all of his seats still. The line about making the govt, and so taxpayer 😁, pay was classic O'Leary grabbing a headline.

Incidentally, you are spot on, the knife crime figures are for 2019, nothing to do with the lockdown period.
		
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O’Leary IS receiving State Aid. Ryanair has refused to give a cash refund for ANY flights which are cancelled. They are operating at around 5 % estimate capacity. 

They have said all customers who want a cash refund will have to wait for up to 18 months. They are getting aid from all the people who are owed money which will help their cashflow. They are not alone BTW.


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## Old Skier (Apr 26, 2020)

No coordination with testing, these are the questions that need asking by reporters rather than those they know won't get answered.

Testing availability on line showing closed yet at 1545 hrs today there was capacity a t the mobile unit in Torquay, actually it was empty. Where do you book places on the mobile testing centers


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Some nasty spiteful comments about the government from some ths morning.  I guess its  a vent for their frustration.
		
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There didn't seem to be any aimed at 'the government', but several 'pointed' ones aimed at Priti Patel who, imo, thoroughly deserves any/all castigation that heads her way!

Though quite a good, if a bit obviously prepared/read, speech for her turn on the dais yesterday!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			There didn't seem to be any aimed at 'the government', but several 'pointed' ones aimed at Priti Patel who, imo, thoroughly deserves any/all castigation that heads her way!

Though quite a good, if a bit obviously prepared/read, speech for her turn on the dais yesterday!
		
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Patel, Hancock, Boris, seems a bit Governmental to me.


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Patel, Hancock, Boris, seems a bit *Governmental* to me.
		
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I don't understand what you mean by that, though I do know (at least 1 meaning of) what 'governmental'means! Please explain!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I don't understand what you mean by that, though I do know (at least 1 meaning of) what 'governmental'means! Please explain!
		
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*governmental*
_adjective_
Of or relating to government:


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*governmental*
_adjective_
Of or relating to government:
		
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Yeah, that I knew (and said so)! And of course they DO and SHOULD relate to government - thus being 'governmental'.

Are you suggesting they are 'overly-governmental'? Aka condescendingly/arrogantly so? Officious perhaps?


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## User20205 (Apr 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah, that I knew (and said so)! And of course they DO and SHOULD relate to government - thus being 'governmental'.

Are you suggesting they are 'overly-governmental'? Aka condescendingly/arrogantly so? Officious perhaps?
		
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If so can we use ‘overly governmental’  as a coverall PHRASE to DESCRIBE some of the POSTERS on this FORum 🤣


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah, that I knew (and said so)! And of course they DO and SHOULD relate to government - thus being 'governmental'.

Are you suggesting they are 'overly-governmental'? Aka condescendingly/arrogantly so? Officious perhaps?
		
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I dont quite get where you are taking this.
You said there didnt seem to any comments aimed at the Government.
I pointed out there had been three ministers commented on which made it Governmental.
You said you didnt understand what I meant by saying it was Governmental and asked me to explain.
I explained.
Now you are asking me if I meant something I didnt say.
Now I'm bored with this.


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## patricks148 (Apr 27, 2020)

still wondering why Gov political advisers are attending SAG meetings.... unless of course they are Scientific experts?


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## drdel (Apr 27, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			still wondering why Gov political advisers are attending SAG meetings.... unless of course they are Scientific experts?
		
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Observers, inform Cabinet. 
Why not?


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2020)

Credit where it's due, Boris spoke well just now, some badly needed leadership at last even if there was nothing really new to say.
The 'transparency' word was great to hear though. See if he means it.


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## patricks148 (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Observers, inform Cabinet.
Why not?
		
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shirley they already have ways to report their advice why would it need to go though Cummings first?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Observers, inform Cabinet.
Why not?
		
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So Cummings is just going along to take notes? I know these are strange times, but that's ridiculous.

One thing that gets me is this line "we are following the science". That is nonsense, they are choosing a data model they like the look of, and basing decisions on that. Which is fair enough, but stop pretending it's a science where there is only one set of correct answers.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Credit where it's due, Boris spoke well just now, some badly needed leadership at last even if there was nothing really new to say.
The 'transparency' word was great to hear though. See if he means it.
		
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He did speak well. The Tory MP who came on the BBC after his speech was right when he said he is their best communicator by far.


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Credit where it's due, Boris spoke well just now, some badly needed leadership at last even if there was nothing really new to say.
The 'transparency' word was great to hear though. See if he means it.
		
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I like the way he talks, no umming or erring, very succinct communication.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So Cummings is just going along to take notes? I know these are strange times, but that's ridiculous.

One thing that gets me is this line "we are following the science". That is nonsense, they are choosing a data model they like the look of, and basing decisions on that. Which is fair enough, but stop pretending it's a science where there is only one set of correct answers.
		
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Which of the two paras are you mostvwrong on, I wonder?
The SAG group is quite a large one. Cummings and assistant will be there to note what is said, and *also, *no doubt, to pass on the questions and queries and theories from the Cabinet members. How else do you think the Cabinet can get their views to and from the SAG group, in the best way. 
Clearly the whole Cabinet cannot meet the whole SAG group.
But, being a fully paid up member of the Cummings Hate group, you cannot find a logical reason , there must be a Machiavellian one.

And of course, you know that the SAG meetings are all just a show, that all those SAG members, having given their advice and created their road map, then sit back quietly whilst the government then implement policies bearing no resemblance to that agreed advice. And that has been going on for weeks , has it?


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## rosecott (Apr 27, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			shirley they already have ways to report their advice why would it need to go though Cummings first?
		
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This is the second post you've mentioned Shirley this morning. Are you developing an obsession?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Which of the two paras are you mostvwrong on, I wonder?
The SAG group is quite a large one. Cummings and assistant will be there to note what is said, and *also, *no doubt, to pass on the questions and queries and theories from the Cabinet members. How else do you think the Cabinet can get their views to and from the SAG group, in the best way.
Clearly the whole Cabinet cannot meet the whole SAG group.
But, being a fully paid up member of the Cummings Hate group, you cannot find a logical reason , there must be a Machiavellian one.

And of course, you know that the SAG meetings are all just a show, that all those SAG members, having given their advice and created their road map, then sit back quietly whilst the government then implement policies bearing no resemblance to that agreed advice. And that has been going on for weeks , has it?
		
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Where did I say the government are disregarding advice from scientists? They obviously are basing decisions on what they are being told, but there are a number of differing schools of thought amongst the scientific community. There is a world of difference between following scientific advice and there only being one set of agreed correct answers.

We all know that Cummings performs the same bullyboy / enforcer role that Campbell did for Blair, to suggest he is going along merely to pass on "questions, queries and theories" from the Cabinet is laughable. If the Cabinet really wanted a message boy, they would send a junior minister from the Dept of Health.


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## drdel (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So Cummings is just going along to take notes? I know these are strange times, but that's ridiculous.

One thing that gets me is this line "we are following the science". That is nonsense, they are choosing a data model they like the look of, and basing decisions on that. Which is fair enough, but stop pretending it's a science where there is only one set of correct answers.
		
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You are showing that you have no idea how the Government expert panels work and the practicalities


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Where did I say the government are disregarding advice from scientists? They obviously are basing decisions on what they are being told, but there are a number of differing schools of thought amongst the scientific community. There is a world of difference between following scientific advice and there only being one set of agreed correct answers.

We all know that Cummings performs the same bullyboy / enforcer role that Campbell did for Blair, to suggest he is going along merely to pass on "questions, queries and theories" from the Cabinet is laughable. If the Cabinet really wanted a message boy, they would send a junior minister from the Dept of Health.
		
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Do you not read your own posts?  Post 227

"".....'.we are following the science' That is nonsense"


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Where did I say the government are disregarding advice from scientists? They obviously are basing decisions on what they are being told, but there are a number of differing schools of thought amongst the scientific community. There is a world of difference between following scientific advice and there only being one set of agreed correct answers.

We all know that Cummings performs the same bullyboy / enforcer role that Campbell did for Blair, to suggest he is going along merely to pass on "questions, queries and theories" from the Cabinet is laughable. If the Cabinet really wanted a message boy, they would send a junior minister from the Dept of Health.
		
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SAG isnt a cabinet meeting, I believe there are attendees from a number of groups.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

So no one here has ever gone to a meeting being held by another dept  that they might have a vested interest in the outcomes? No here has been asked a question when they've sat in on those meetings, or offered a different view? No one on here has said, but the process or policy is? No one on here has been asked by their boss to attend a meeting being held by another dept?

Seriously? And do people think that the scientific advice gets changed because of an opinion from a SPAD? Really?

Methinks there's some people with their head stuck up their own 'political bias.'


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Do you not read your own posts?  Post 227

"".....'.we are following the science' That is nonsense"
		
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for the third time, there is a world of difference between taking scientific advice, and there only being one school of thought or indeed one set of answers within the scientific community.


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So no one here has ever gone to a meeting being held by another dept  that they might have a vested interest in the outcomes? No here has been asked a question when they've sat in on those meetings, or offered a different view? No one on here has said, but the process or policy is? No one on here has been asked by their boss to attend a meeting being held by another dept?

Seriously? And do people think that the scientific advice gets changed because of an opinion from a SPAD? Really?

Methinks there's some people with their head stuck up their own 'political bias.'
		
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Why not be open about it then? Clearly Govt didn't want people to know Cummings was at SAGE. Govt forget they are elected by public. That's what is wrong and why it was a press story. You can defuse any story easily by being up front with people. Johnson acknowledged that error earlier today with the transparency comment and also offered cross party input. That was a good move even if he doesn't mean it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Where did I say the government are disregarding advice from scientists? They obviously are basing decisions on what they are being told, but there are a number of differing schools of thought amongst the scientific community. There is a world of difference between following scientific advice and there only being one set of agreed correct answers.

We all know that Cummings performs the same bullyboy / enforcer role that Campbell did for Blair, to suggest he is going along merely to pass on "questions, queries and theories" from the Cabinet is laughable. If the Cabinet really wanted a message boy, they would send a junior minister from the Dept of Health.
		
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Actually we don't all know what role Cummings fills

The only thing we have is the spin placed upon him by various media outlets which we then translate to conform to our own political leanings. 

No: 10 could deny until eternity that he made any contribution to SAGE meetings and some will never believe it whilst others will believe every word.

Whatever suits the narrative.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Observers, inform Cabinet.
Why not?
		
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I'm not that fussed that Cummings is sitting in on SAGE meetings. I have no concerns about him influencing discussions and decisions of SAGE - I just can't see that happening.   But 'to inform cabinet?'  I thought that that's what the minutes of SAGE were for.  The issue some will have is that Cummings isn't simply 'informing' cabinet - but that he's 'spinning' to the cabinet what he heard in SAGE and what they will read in the minutes.

Bottom line is that I don't really care what they do as long as they get it right - and from where we are today that is the current level of fatalities from Covid-19 being as bad as it gets before it reduces, and us not being subjected to a grim second wave in the Autumn...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So no one here has ever gone to a meeting being held by another dept  that they might have a vested interest in the outcomes? No here has been asked a question when they've sat in on those meetings, or offered a different view? No one on here has said, but the process or policy is? No one on here has been asked by their boss to attend a meeting being held by another dept?

Seriously? And do people think that the scientific advice gets changed because of an opinion from a SPAD? Really?

Methinks there's some people with their head stuck up their own 'political bias.'
		
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Absolutely.  It's always a good policy to invite someone who is not involved deeply in the subject as they often see the issue in a detached light.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Why not be open about it then? Clearly Govt didn't want people to know Cummings was at SAGE. Govt forget they are elected by public. That's what is wrong and why it was a press story. You can defuse any story easily by being up front with people. Johnson acknowledged that error earlier today with the transparency comment and also offered cross party input. That was a good move even if he doesn't mean it.
		
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Why be open about it? I'm not interested that Cummings was at a SAGE meeting. First of all no globally recognised scientist/expert is going to risk their reputation by making politically expedient decisions in the face of scientific evidence. That in itself will keep the govt honest.

"As for the govt forget they are elected by the public.." I'm not sure where you get that from but I can't see any hint of it. Its a representative democracy - they don't have to run to the public with everything. I think that as they're having daily public briefing, with their scientific advisors present, they're being very open.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Why not be open about it then? Clearly Govt didn't want people to know Cummings was at SAGE. Govt forget they are elected by public. That's what is wrong and why it was a press story. You can defuse any story easily by being up front with people. Johnson acknowledged that error earlier today with the transparency comment and also offered cross party input. That was a good move even if he doesn't mean it.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a list of Sage attendees?  Do we really expect that level of information,, it seems like these type of comments are the product of anti Conservative venting or press sensationalism.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

I don't mind him being at the meetings as long as they're transparent. My only issue is with a spin doctor of any hue is that when the enquiries begin to happen and any errors come to light the bad decisions will have been led by the science and the good stuff attributed to the government.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not that fussed that Cummings is sitting in on SAGE meetings. I have no concerns about him influencing discussions and decisions of SAGE - I just can't see that happening.   But 'to inform cabinet?'  I thought that that's what the minutes of SAGE were for.  The issue some will have is that Cummings isn't simply 'informing' cabinet - but that he's 'spinning' to the cabinet what he heard in SAGE and what they will read in the minutes.

Bottom line is that I don't really care what they do as long as they get it right - and from where we are today that is the current level of fatalities from Covid-19 being as bad as it gets before it reduces, and us not being subjected to a grim second wave in the Autumn...
		
Click to expand...

There you go again, making little sandwiches. The General message is top and bottom, that you want the right outcome for everyone, whatever concerns there are etc etc, and right in the middle is the *real message*
Cummings is spinning, telling the Cabinet that despite what they read in the minutes, what they really should be understanding is what Cummings says it says.
Do you really think that this one man, with no official government standing, is able to ride roughshod over Cabinet ministers en masse, over the whole of SAG members each of whom has more cred in their little fingers than Cummings has, without there being some almighty comeback on Boris , of the kind he couldn't withstand?
If you were a top scientist and you had given advice, and then seen Cummings report ( in your word -spin) differently to the government, what would you do?
What would any of them do? With the free press that we have?
You'd create Holy Hell, that's what. You wouldn't have what you would then consider to be, some jumped up little , unqualified, PR man trashing your reputation in that way.
Especially when that  well regarded scientist knows that the Country's press are poised to come down on him like a ton of bricks at the slightest opportunity.
Time to think past your prejudices.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Credit where it's due, Boris spoke well just now, some badly needed leadership at last even if there was nothing really new to say.
The 'transparency' word was great to hear though. See if he means it.
		
Click to expand...

I have to admit to experiencing similar 'thinks' on Johnson.  

My second thought was that he casts a giant shadow over pretty much all of his cabinet who have done briefings in his absence  (I'll except Sunak and Hancock as they have done as well as I could expect).  

My third 'thinks' were that he was telling us how well we have done - and I liked his use of 'we' rather than telling us it was all about the government - but I was not so sure that his positivity over what we have jointly (government plus public) achieved was actually _that _merited.

But notwithstanding any of that - welcome back Boris.  You _have _been missed - seriously.


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Why be open about it? I'm not interested that Cummings was at a SAGE meeting. First of all no globally recognised scientist/expert is going to risk their reputation by making politically expedient decisions in the face of scientific evidence. That in itself will keep the govt honest.

"As for the govt forget they are elected by the public.." I'm not sure where you get that from but I can't see any hint of it. Its a representative democracy - they don't have to run to the public with everything. I think that as they're having daily public briefing, with their scientific advisors present, they're being very open.
		
Click to expand...

No Cummings is there to try and politically influence or steer SAGE when it should be independent, otherwise he could just read their reports. Govt know there are serious questions to come because tens of thousands are dead and need to manipulate to get least damage. If one of your family is a victim you want to know things were done right. 'Following the science' is key get out for govt but when things like Cheltenham Races, Champions League football, fully open airports were all allowed to continue when the virus was raging through parts of northern Italy in ski season with loads of Brits holidaying there, you need to ask why, even with benefit of hindsight so we learn for another time.  They knew it was coming and appear to have acted slowly, that is evidenced by other countries early responses. Test track and trace had been wholly absent yet has been key for countries with best outcomes, along with harder lockdowns. We are only getting going now with testing.
Maybe we simply couldn't do that but questions must be asked.  Cummings at SAGE looks dodgy, no 2 ways about it. Way too powerful/influential.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			No Cummings is there to try and politically influence or steer SAGE when it should be independent, otherwise he could just read their reports. Govt know there are serious questions to come because tens of thousands are dead and need to manipulate to get least damage. If one of your family is a victim you want to know things were done right. 'Following the science' is key get out for govt but when things like Cheltenham Races, Champions League football, fully open airports were all allowed to continue when the virus was raging through parts of northern Italy in ski season with loads of Brits holidaying there, you need to ask why, even with benefit of hindsight so we learn for another time.  They knew it was coming and appear to have acted slowly, that is evidenced by other countries early responses. Test track and trace had been wholly absent yet has been key for countries with best outcomes, along with harder lockdowns. We are only getting going now with testing.
Maybe we simply couldn't do that but questions must be asked.  Cummings at SAGE looks dodgy, no 2 ways about it. Way too powerful/influential.
		
Click to expand...

So you know Cummings is there to exert political influence? C'mon then, lets have some links, some proof of your wild assumption. How about a transcript of the minutes? You have those of course otherwise how you would say you know why Cummings is there. Lets see them then....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There you go again, making little sandwiches. The General message is top and bottom, that you want the right outcome for everyone, whatever concerns there are etc etc, and right in the middle is the *real message*
Cummings is spinning, telling the Cabinet that despite what they read in the minutes, what they really should be understanding is what Cummings says it says.
Do you really think that this one man, with no official government standing, is able to ride roughshod over Cabinet ministers en masse, over the whole of SAG members each of whom has more cred in their little fingers than Cummings has, without there being some almighty comeback on Boris , of the kind he couldn't withstand?
If you were a top scientist and you had given advice, and then seen Cummings report ( in your word -spin) differently to the government, what would you do?
What would any of them do? With the free press that we have?
You'd create Holy Hell, that's what. You wouldn't have what you would then consider to be, some jumped up little , unqualified, PR man trashing your reputation in that way.
Especially when that  well regarded scientist knows that the Country's press are poised to come down on him like a ton of bricks at the slightest opportunity.
Time to think past your prejudices.
		
Click to expand...

OK - so you are happy that in private discussions with Cabinet members over the last period, Johnson's chief advisor and spin doctor will not do anything other than tell it straight as agreed by SAGE...fair enough.  However given Cummings' record and his role I'm not so certain...I'm not saying he'll contradict the SAGE agreed position - of course he won't (well I would hope that he wouldn't) - but he will inevitably put his own take on it.  Because that is why he is there.

But as I said.  I don't care as long as they get it right.


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So you know Cummings is there to exert political influence? C'mon then, lets have some links, some proof of your wild assumption. How about a transcript of the minutes? You have those of course otherwise how you would say you know why Cummings is there. Lets see them then....
		
Click to expand...

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck.....
He's top SPAD to Johnson Govt, not a minister, who has form for heavy interference, just ask S Javid. No reason to be there other than to lean on them for govt friendly output. 
When my FoI request is returned with minutes I will happily share.


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## Foxholer (Apr 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There you go again, making little sandwiches. The General message is top and bottom, that you want the right outcome for everyone, whatever concerns there are etc etc, and right in the middle is the *real message*
Cummings is spinning, telling the Cabinet that despite what they read in the minutes, what they really should be understanding is what Cummings says it says.
Do you really think that this one man, with no official government standing, is able to ride roughshod over Cabinet ministers en masse, over the whole of SAG members each of whom has more cred in their little fingers than Cummings has, without there being some almighty comeback on Boris , of the kind he couldn't withstand?
If you were a top scientist and you had given advice, and then seen Cummings report ( in your word -spin) differently to the government, what would you do?
What would any of them do? With the free press that we have?
You'd create Holy Hell, that's what. You wouldn't have what you would then consider to be, some jumped up little , unqualified, PR man trashing your reputation in that way.
Especially when that  well regarded scientist knows that the Country's press are poised to come down on him like a ton of bricks at the slightest opportunity.
Time to think past your prejudices.
		
Click to expand...

You seem, to me, to be saying pretty much exactly the same thing as SILH!
Try applying the last sentence of your post yourself!

Btw. I DO wonder what Cummings is doing there, but don't particularly care as lon as, in SILH's words...they get it right!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

I don't actually really care much either.  

Despite any suspicions I might hold given the man's admitted history of spin and scheming to the public in the interests of Johnson and the government - if he helps the government make the right decisions then that's fine by me.  

In time it is the government and Johnson who be judged by the public on their handling of the coronavirus pandemic - not Cummings.  Johnson can listen to whomsoever he wants - as long as Cummings is not influencing the decisions and advice given by SAGE.  Cummings can try and influence what Johnson does with the advice - what advice Johnson accepts is the prerogative of the PM and the government.


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## patricks148 (Apr 27, 2020)

rosecott said:



			This is the second post you've mentioned Shirley this morning. Are you developing an obsession?
		
Click to expand...

i was hoping the reply would be don't call me Shirley, but looks like it went over heads


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## drdel (Apr 27, 2020)

If anyone is interested there are plenty of quotes around from people who have and do work for Cummings and speak well of him; but that doesn't fit the childish "svengali" narrative

The PM and the Cabinet members ares not stupid and BJ does not lack the confidence to follow his own mind. He would not be swayed from his views by Cummings or any other advisor unless the information warranted it..

Advisors and Departmental resps attend most Government 'Expert' panels and, often because of activists and security reasons membership is not always widely broadcast/ publicised; It also allows the 'experts' to be frank.

Just because its not all over the media does not make it sinister.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck.....
He's top SPAD to Johnson Govt, not a minister, who has form for heavy interference, just ask S Javid. No reason to be there other than to lean on them for govt friendly output.
When my FoI request is returned with minutes I will happily share.
		
Click to expand...

In other words, you don't know. And you won't know till the FoI kicks in well down the road. But you still don't know, do you? Do you? No need to answer, its pretty obvious you don't know.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't actually really care much either. 

Despite any suspicions I might hold given the man's admitted history of spin and scheming to the public in the interests of Johnson and the government - if he helps the government make the right decisions then that's fine by me. 

In time it is the government and Johnson who be judged by the public on their handling of the coronavirus pandemic - not Cummings.  Johnson can listen to whomsoever he wants - as long as Cummings is not influencing the decisions and advice given by SAGE.  Cummings can try and influence what Johnson does with the advice - what advice Johnson accepts is the prerogative of the PM and the government.
		
Click to expand...

Is that right answer. We all know Cummings' reputation, and some might have a better idea than others. I agree it doesn't read well, and I'm inclined to believe some of it. But the, he's there to lean on SAGE, is pathetic. No one leans on a top scientist, or if they do they're ignored. Any one of them could walk away tomorrow into a top job in the world. Being leaned on, jeez, me sides are splitting.

Next there'll be monsters under beds


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			If anyone is interested there are plenty of quotes around from people who have and do work for Cummings and speak well of him; but that doesn't fit the childish "svengali" narrative

The PM and the Cabinet members ares not stupid and BJ does not lack the confidence to follow his own mind. He would not be swayed from his views by Cummings or any other advisor unless the information warranted it..

Advisors and Departmental resps attend most Government 'Expert' panels and, often because of activists and security reasons membership is not always widely broadcast/ publicised; It also allows the 'experts' to be frank.

Just because its not all over the media does not make it sinister.
		
Click to expand...

He's another product of how binary our political discourse has become, you either love him or loathe him dependent on your political affiliation with no middle ground.
What I don't like about the SAGE meetings is not who is on the advisory panel, that can be anonymised but that there is no minuted public record of the meetings. The term being led by the science is used a lot. Well have they been led by the advice and what was that? It's not sinister but neither is it very transparent.


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## rosecott (Apr 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			He's another product of how binary our political discourse has become, you either love him or loathe him dependent on your political affiliation with no middle ground.
What I don't like about the SAGE meetings is not who is on the advisory panel, that can be anonymised but that there is no minuted public record of the meetings. The term being led by the science is used a lot. Well have they been led by the advice and what was that? It's not sinister but neither is it very transparent.
		
Click to expand...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/830336/toddbrook_minutes_06_08_19.pdf

I believe the minutes of the current meetings are not being released at this stage but will be released at some time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			He's another product of how binary our political discourse has become, *you either love him or loathe him dependent on your political affiliation with no middle ground.*
What I don't like about the SAGE meetings is not who is on the advisory panel, that can be anonymised but that there is no minuted public record of the meetings. The term being led by the science is used a lot. Well have they been led by the advice and what was that? It's not sinister but neither is it very transparent.
		
Click to expand...

But I simply don't think that it's as B&W as you suggest.

I had zero time for him in the context of Brexit - but if he helps Johnson make the right decisions on coronavirus then I'll say good on him.  I don't actually care if Johnson and the Conservatives gain politically from their handling of the pandemic if things turn out well.  That I don't think they have handled things that well to date is a separate matter altogether - what has happened so far will be taken into account in the final reckoning.  What happens from now on is what is critically important - especially in respect of the risk associated with PPE, testing and easing of restrictions and a second wave in autumn.

I would be concerned were it to turn out that Cummings was in any way pressurising SAGE on the conclusions they reach and what they advise the government.  But I doubt very much that anything of that is happening.  Cummings can advise Johnson on what to do with that advice, and Johnson can listen to Cummings or not.

And for the same reason I am not that bothered about knowing what is discussed in SAGE and what advice it gives.   I suspect it is very sensitive, and what a government does with sensitive information is entirely up to that government.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

rosecott said:



https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/830336/toddbrook_minutes_06_08_19.pdf

I believe the minutes of the current meetings are not being released at this stage but will be released at some time.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's definitely a good way forward as they seem to be pretty timely.


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## Ethan (Apr 27, 2020)

I haven't read al the posts here, but this is my take:

Firstly, it is worth saying that this is a very tough, unprecedented situation which only has a series of bad choices available. On the one hand, restrictions, limitations on public freedom, directly affecting aspects of the economy, on the other a huge death toll and probably much the same economic effects, only indirectly occurring. In some cases, I am happy to see him screw up, because to will hurt him politically. Not this case, in which the price of failures is measured in bodies. 

Having said that, I think Johnson has still done a pretty bad job and made it much worse than it needed to be. This is in part because of the bad job done by previous Governments. The pandemic planning exercise in 2016 identified PPE and ventilators as being critical issues. Nothing was done here to prepare for that need. Other countries acted much more wisely. The NHS has been run down over they last few years in terms of bed numbers and staffing. Many EU doctors and nurses have left. Many others have restricted their hours because of perverse incentives in the pension system. Others have left because of scapegoating of medical staff for managerial failings.

I trained as a public health physician some years ago, although I now work in pharma drug development. The basic principle of outbreak management is test, trace and isolate. That we are only starting doing so now is somewhere worse than shameful. The herd immunity strategy, supposedly promoted by Dominic Cummings, was a massive gamble even if you know that immunity is conferred by exposure. We don't even know that. Shielding older people is only a temporary fix. Even when you achieve herd immunity thresholds, that doesn't mean older people are safe. Transmission will still occur and they will be picked off. The herd immunity strategy would have cost an unspeakable number of lives.

The pack of lies about the UKs membership of the EU procurement systems should be a public scandal for which senior heads rolled. Unfortunate it is part of the ideology that separation from the EU must be absolute. Dropping out of the European Medicines Agency is another part of this, and we should urgently make sure that the UK MHRA is aligned with EMA on treatment and vaccine development.

The Govt sneakily downgraded Covid from being a High Consequence Infectious Disease. This allowed them to downgrade PPE regulations without legal liability. This is a cynical move.

It was clear for some time that Itlay was giving the UK a vision of the future. At a time when Italy was seeing exponential rise in cases and deaths, we should have locked down, imposed immigration controls and acted to suppress this condition. Instead we saw political uncertainty, eventually followed by Johnson's advice not to go to the pub, which his father said he would ignore. Then a week later, we saw the current lockdown arrangements. That delay with advice, then strengthening it, was probably pretty critical. That is why we have busted through 20k hospital deaths, probably 40k in total, and will likely see a lot more.

Now, the Govt parrots lines about following the science. Nonsense, they have not done so thus far. Nor did they do it at the right time when they eventually did. Testing is a shambles, PPE is still a disaster and now Johnson has a choice to make. It basically boils down to what level of increase of cases will he tolerate in order to placate backbenchers. Instead of Raab and the like deflecting every question about exit strategy to an answer that it is too soon, they should publish criteria that will allow some degree of easing. This could be in terms of an X% reduction in deaths from the peak sustained for Y days, or an Ro reduced to 0.6 or whatever. Their call what they are, but publish and let UK public health, social scientists and other people debate them and reach a national consensus. This should also have reinstatement criteria if things get out of control again. That way, Johnson would have broad agreement for the easing strategy. If he doesn't and sticks to his 5 vague tests, it become a purely political decision, and then he owns it and all the bodies that go with it. He would be really unwise to do that.


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			In other words, you don't know. And you won't know till the FoI kicks in well down the road. But you still don't know, do you? Do you? No need to answer, its pretty obvious you don't know.
		
Click to expand...

You have no idea he's not there to exert political influence any more than I think he is. He's not a scientist at a supposedly impartial scientific advisory group, he is very influential in government and his presence was leaked because some think he shouldn't be there. He is unaccountable and unelected yet wields significant power in No 10, that is not a secret and worries many people. Your asking for proof of political opinion is largely impossible in this case. It was a big enough story with ample commentary from those who are or have been close to the workings of govt to be worth discussion. SAGE should be apolitical, it's a story because it was him and it was secretive. Clearly some political angle to it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2020)

All this so called leaking without the leaker having the gonads to but their name to it. Perhaps it really isn't a leak at it has been common knowledge and those that matter don't give a stuff.


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## drdel (Apr 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I haven't read al the posts here, but this is my take:

Firstly, it is worth saying that this is a very tough, unprecedented situation which only has a series of bad choices available. On the one hand, restrictions, limitations on public freedom, directly affecting aspects of the economy, on the other a huge death toll and probably much the same economic effects, only indirectly occurring. In some cases, I am happy to see him screw up, because to will hurt him politically. Not this case, in which the price of failures is measured in bodies.

Having said that, I think Johnson has still done a pretty bad job and made it much worse than it needed to be. This is in part because of the bad job done by previous Governments. The pandemic planning exercise in 2016 identified PPE and ventilators as being critical issues. Nothing was done here to prepare for that need. Other countries acted much more wisely. The NHS has been run down over they last few years in terms of bed numbers and staffing. Many EU doctors and nurses have left. Many others have restricted their hours because of perverse incentives in the pension system. Others have left because of scapegoating of medical staff for managerial failings.

I trained as a public health physician some years ago, although I now work in pharma drug development. The basic principle of outbreak management is test, trace and isolate. That we are only starting doing so now is somewhere worse than shameful. The herd immunity strategy, supposedly promoted by Dominic Cummings, was a massive gamble even if you know that immunity is conferred by exposure. We don't even know that. Shielding older people is only a temporary fix. Even when you achieve herd immunity thresholds, that doesn't mean older people are safe. Transmission will still occur and they will be picked off. The herd immunity strategy would have cost an unspeakable number of lives.

The pack of lies about the UKs membership of the EU procurement systems should be a public scandal for which senior heads rolled. Unfortunate it is part of the ideology that separation from the EU must be absolute. Dropping out of the European Medicines Agency is another part of this, and we should urgently make sure that the UK MHRA is aligned with EMA on treatment and vaccine development.

The Govt sneakily downgraded Covid from being a High Consequence Infectious Disease. This allowed them to downgrade PPE regulations without legal liability. This is a cynical move.

It was clear for some time that Itlay was giving the UK a vision of the future. At a time when Italy was seeing exponential rise in cases and deaths, we should have locked down, imposed immigration controls and acted to suppress this condition. Instead we saw political uncertainty, eventually followed by Johnson's advice not to go to the pub, which his father said he would ignore. Then a week later, we saw the current lockdown arrangements. That delay with advice, then strengthening it, was probably pretty critical. That is why we have busted through 20k hospital deaths, probably 40k in total, and will likely see a lot more.

Now, the Govt parrots lines about following the science. Nonsense, they have not done so thus far. Nor did they do it at the right time when they eventually did. Testing is a shambles, PPE is still a disaster and now Johnson has a choice to make. It basically boils down to what level of increase of cases will he tolerate in order to placate backbenchers. Instead of Raab and the like deflecting every question about exit strategy to an answer that it is too soon, they should publish criteria that will allow some degree of easing. This could be in terms of an X% reduction in deaths from the peak sustained for Y days, or an Ro reduced to 0.6 or whatever. Their call what they are, but publish and let UK public health, social scientists and other people debate them and reach a national consensus. This should also have reinstatement criteria if things get out of control again. That way, Johnson would have broad agreement for the easing strategy. If he doesn't and sticks to his 5 vague tests, it become a purely political decision, and then he owns it and all the bodies that go with it. He would be really unwise to do that.
		
Click to expand...

Then you will know the NHS has been short of money for 4 decades at least. A variety of reasons mostly not political. 

You refer to the PM but he was not in position in 2016


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2020)

Thank you Ethan, you have put my exact take on this Government's actions in letters and words far more cleverly than I would ever manage.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Then you will know the NHS has been short of money for 4 decades at least. *A variety of reasons mostly not political.*

You refer to the PM but he was not in position in 2016
		
Click to expand...

What are the reasons then?


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## Ethan (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Then you will know the NHS has been short of money for 4 decades at least. A variety of reasons mostly not political.

You refer to the PM but he was not in position in 2016
		
Click to expand...

The NHS has not been critically short of money for 4 decades. There have been period s or reasonable funding. Much of the money has, in recent years, been spent on trappings on the internal market which has been an enormous waste of needed NHS money. 

I know Johnson was not PM in 2016, hence my reference to 'previous Govts'. 

Johnson's main failing as PM has been his contribution to losing NHS staff, failing to align with EMA and failing to get his finger out fast enough despite the ruling of WHO and others. He contributed to some previous Govt failings and an MP and Minister.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I haven't read al the posts here, but this is my take:

Firstly, it is worth saying that this is a very tough, unprecedented situation which only has a series of bad choices available. On the one hand, restrictions, limitations on public freedom, directly affecting aspects of the economy, on the other a huge death toll and probably much the same economic effects, only indirectly occurring. In some cases, I am happy to see him screw up, because to will hurt him politically. Not this case, in which the price of failures is measured in bodies.

Having said that, I think Johnson has still done a pretty bad job and made it much worse than it needed to be. This is in part because of the bad job done by previous Governments. The pandemic planning exercise in 2016 identified PPE and ventilators as being critical issues. Nothing was done here to prepare for that need. Other countries acted much more wisely. The NHS has been run down over they last few years in terms of bed numbers and staffing. Many EU doctors and nurses have left. Many others have restricted their hours because of perverse incentives in the pension system. Others have left because of scapegoating of medical staff for managerial failings.

I trained as a public health physician some years ago, although I now work in pharma drug development. The basic principle of outbreak management is test, trace and isolate. That we are only starting doing so now is somewhere worse than shameful. The herd immunity strategy, supposedly promoted by Dominic Cummings, was a massive gamble even if you know that immunity is conferred by exposure. We don't even know that. Shielding older people is only a temporary fix. Even when you achieve herd immunity thresholds, that doesn't mean older people are safe. Transmission will still occur and they will be picked off. The herd immunity strategy would have cost an unspeakable number of lives.

The pack of lies about the UKs membership of the EU procurement systems should be a public scandal for which senior heads rolled. Unfortunate it is part of the ideology that separation from the EU must be absolute. Dropping out of the European Medicines Agency is another part of this, and we should urgently make sure that the UK MHRA is aligned with EMA on treatment and vaccine development.

The Govt sneakily downgraded Covid from being a High Consequence Infectious Disease. This allowed them to downgrade PPE regulations without legal liability. This is a cynical move.

It was clear for some time that Itlay was giving the UK a vision of the future. At a time when Italy was seeing exponential rise in cases and deaths, we should have locked down, imposed immigration controls and acted to suppress this condition. Instead we saw political uncertainty, eventually followed by Johnson's advice not to go to the pub, which his father said he would ignore. Then a week later, we saw the current lockdown arrangements. That delay with advice, then strengthening it, was probably pretty critical. That is why we have busted through 20k hospital deaths, probably 40k in total, and will likely see a lot more.

Now, the Govt parrots lines about following the science. Nonsense, they have not done so thus far. Nor did they do it at the right time when they eventually did. Testing is a shambles, PPE is still a disaster and now Johnson has a choice to make. It basically boils down to what level of increase of cases will he tolerate in order to placate backbenchers. Instead of Raab and the like deflecting every question about exit strategy to an answer that it is too soon, they should publish criteria that will allow some degree of easing. This could be in terms of an X% reduction in deaths from the peak sustained for Y days, or an Ro reduced to 0.6 or whatever. Their call what they are, but publish and let UK public health, social scientists and other people debate them and reach a national consensus. This should also have reinstatement criteria if things get out of control again. That way, Johnson would have broad agreement for the easing strategy. If he doesn't and sticks to his 5 vague tests, it become a purely political decision, and then he owns it and all the bodies that go with it. He would be really unwise to do that.
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:








Click to expand...

It's only his take as he says, doesn't make it fact.


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## User20205 (Apr 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It's only his take as he says, doesn't make it fact.
		
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 no not fact, but I imagine, considered opinion backed up by an understanding of the medicine, disease control & the politics surrounding the NHS. Why would we listen to that 🤣🤣


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It's only his take as he says, doesn't make it fact.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it is a take but it was IMHO a very intelligent post by someone with obvious insight and experience in this area. Anyone is free to intelligently counter it.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 27, 2020)

@Ethan dont be talking too much sense, you'll be accused of playing Party Politics and/or being a "loony leftie"

What a post though 👏👏


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I haven't read al the posts here, but this is my take:

Firstly, it is worth saying that this is a very tough, unprecedented situation which only has a series of bad choices available. On the one hand, restrictions, limitations on public freedom, directly affecting aspects of the economy, on the other a huge death toll and probably much the same economic effects, only indirectly occurring. In some cases, I am happy to see him screw up, because to will hurt him politically. Not this case, in which the price of failures is measured in bodies.

Having said that, I think Johnson has still done a pretty bad job and made it much worse than it needed to be. This is in part because of the bad job done by previous Governments. The pandemic planning exercise in 2016 identified PPE and ventilators as being critical issues. Nothing was done here to prepare for that need. Other countries acted much more wisely. The NHS has been run down over they last few years in terms of bed numbers and staffing. Many EU doctors and nurses have left. Many others have restricted their hours because of perverse incentives in the pension system. Others have left because of scapegoating of medical staff for managerial failings.

I trained as a public health physician some years ago, although I now work in pharma drug development. The basic principle of outbreak management is test, trace and isolate. That we are only starting doing so now is somewhere worse than shameful. The herd immunity strategy, supposedly promoted by Dominic Cummings, was a massive gamble even if you know that immunity is conferred by exposure. We don't even know that. Shielding older people is only a temporary fix. Even when you achieve herd immunity thresholds, that doesn't mean older people are safe. Transmission will still occur and they will be picked off. The herd immunity strategy would have cost an unspeakable number of lives.

The pack of lies about the UKs membership of the EU procurement systems should be a public scandal for which senior heads rolled. Unfortunate it is part of the ideology that separation from the EU must be absolute. Dropping out of the European Medicines Agency is another part of this, and we should urgently make sure that the UK MHRA is aligned with EMA on treatment and vaccine development.

The Govt sneakily downgraded Covid from being a High Consequence Infectious Disease. This allowed them to downgrade PPE regulations without legal liability. This is a cynical move.

It was clear for some time that Itlay was giving the UK a vision of the future. At a time when Italy was seeing exponential rise in cases and deaths, we should have locked down, imposed immigration controls and acted to suppress this condition. Instead we saw political uncertainty, eventually followed by Johnson's advice not to go to the pub, which his father said he would ignore. Then a week later, we saw the current lockdown arrangements. That delay with advice, then strengthening it, was probably pretty critical. That is why we have busted through 20k hospital deaths, probably 40k in total, and will likely see a lot more.

Now, the Govt parrots lines about following the science. Nonsense, they have not done so thus far. Nor did they do it at the right time when they eventually did. Testing is a shambles, PPE is still a disaster and now Johnson has a choice to make. It basically boils down to what level of increase of cases will he tolerate in order to placate backbenchers. Instead of Raab and the like deflecting every question about exit strategy to an answer that it is too soon, they should publish criteria that will allow some degree of easing. This could be in terms of an X% reduction in deaths from the peak sustained for Y days, or an Ro reduced to 0.6 or whatever. Their call what they are, but publish and let UK public health, social scientists and other people debate them and reach a national consensus. This should also have reinstatement criteria if things get out of control again. That way, Johnson would have broad agreement for the easing strategy. If he doesn't and sticks to his 5 vague tests, it become a purely political decision, and then he owns it and all the bodies that go with it. He would be really unwise to do that.
		
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A very politically biased post that is very quick to make criticism but slow to offer any praise.  I apreciate it's your opinion but it comes over very unbalanced to me. Although; based on your past postings I expect little else.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 27, 2020)

And right as rain there it is 😂😂😂


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## User20205 (Apr 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A very politically biased post that is very quick to make criticism but slow to offer any praise.  I apreciate it's your opinion but it comes over very unbalanced to me. Although; based on your past postings I expect little else.
		
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Do you think the Govts dealing of the pandemic has been adequate?
If Ethan’s is biased I’d be interested in hearing the counter viewpoint?
From my point of view, I’m not sure anyone could have coped criticism free, but stacking the cabinet with people chosen for their stance on Europe rather than ability, won’t  have not worked in their favour. Also as a layman, it does seems that we maybe paying the price for 12 years of austerity.


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes it is a take but it was IMHO a very intelligent post by someone with obvious insight and experience in this area. Anyone is free to intelligently counter it.
		
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The NHS has been underfunded since at least the 90's . It is also a very top heavy organization with too many trusts that also drain funds. Labour s attempt to part privatise areas of it and the Torys taking to long to undo the damage is another factor that has had a severe impact. Pointing a fingure at one political party IMO shows a lack of balance.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

therod said:



			Do you think the Govts dealing of the pandemic has been adequate?
If Ethan’s is biased I’d be interested in hearing the counter viewpoint?
		
Click to expand...

The government are not perfect and have made some questionable decisions but it's easy for us to criticise without the full details that formed their decision making.  I also think the government has made some good decisions regarding helping people and businesses through this difficult time, Nightingale Hospitals, flattening the infection rates and getting the Reinfection rate down from about 3 to 1 or below. There is a balance to be struck here and my opinion is that on balance they have taken some very difficult and bold decisions and in many cases good decisions. I dont think it's fair to ask whether their dealing is totally adequate or inadequate as if theres a black or white answer.  If I am critical they could have locked down quicker and been harsher with rule  breakers,  been more proactive with quaranteening people coming into the country but they have IMO also along with the Scientific, Medical experts kept us well informed.


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## User20205 (Apr 27, 2020)

I will echo the above re the furlough arrangements & help for business. I can’t comment on the practical workings of the scheme, but from the viewpoint of a furloughed worker, the alternative, if there was one, doesn’t bear thinking about


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A very politically biased post that is very quick to make criticism but slow to offer any praise.  I apreciate it's your opinion but it comes over very unbalanced to me. Although; based on your past postings I expect little else.
		
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Do you see the irony in this post?


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## drdel (Apr 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What are the reasons then?
		
Click to expand...

Easily researched... For starters.. 
Overall rise in population
Aging population, more people needing treatment for longer.
Better medical care for more people, wider issues and complexity,
Cancer care extending life with expensive drugs and equipment
Raising level of expectation of 'free' care
Medical tourism
Etc

Under funding from 1960s, see data reports, easy researched!


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Easily researched... For starters.. 
Overall rise in population
Aging population, more people needing treatment for longer.
Better medical care for more people, wider issues and complexity,
Cancer care extending life with expensive drugs and equipment
Raising level of expectation of 'free' care
Medical tourism
Etc

Under funding from 1960s, see data reports, easy researched!
		
Click to expand...

Other similar nations have managed to juggle this better than we have we're not unique in our healthcare issues. 
Who hasn't prepared for the social care problem we have now affecting our NHS if not government?


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

“People think … ‘The Tory party is run by people who basically don’t care about people like me’,”  “That is what most people in the country have thought about the Tory party for decades. I know a lot of Tory MPs and I am sad to say the public is basically correct.
“Tory MPs largely do not care about these poorer people. They don’t care about the NHS. And the public has kind of cottoned on to that.”  Dominic Cummings 2017


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

Let's not sugar the state the NHS is in as just down to PFI's (which it partially is) or changing life expectancy and treatments. There's been systematic chronic   underfunding for decades.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The NHS has been underfunded since at least the 90's . It is also a very top heavy organization with too many trusts that also drain funds. Labour s attempt to part privatise areas of it and the Torys taking to long to undo the damage is another factor that has had a severe impact. Pointing a fingure at one political party IMO shows a lack of balance.
		
Click to expand...

Throughout my adult life I seem to have consistently heard claims and complaints that the NHSwas underfunded. 

That's a period of over 50 years and covers Governments from Wilson to Johnson.

Due to advances in medical science the demand for funding is seemingly infinite.

Obviously there have been times when the need has been more pressing than others but overall I fear we will always have this problem.


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## drdel (Apr 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			“People think … ‘The Tory party is run by people who basically don’t care about people like me’,”  “That is what most people in the country have thought about the Tory party for decades. I know a lot of Tory MPs and I am sad to say the public is basically correct.
“Tory MPs largely do not care about these poorer people. They don’t care about the NHS. And the public has kind of cottoned on to that.”  Dominic Cummings 2017
		
Click to expand...

What we get for 'free' is IMO pretty incredible and I for one am glad I am here at this present time!!!


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			You have no idea he's not there to exert political influence any more than I think he is. He's not a scientist at a supposedly impartial scientific advisory group, he is very influential in government and his presence was leaked because some think he shouldn't be there. He is unaccountable and unelected yet wields significant power in No 10, that is not a secret and worries many people. Your asking for proof of political opinion is largely impossible in this case. It was a big enough story with ample commentary from those who are or have been close to the workings of govt to be worth discussion. SAGE should be apolitical, it's a story because it was him and it was secretive. Clearly some political angle to it.
		
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 Your the conspiracy theorist. I refer you to the very first sentence in your post #247, in which you say Cummings is "there to try and politically influence or steer SAGE when it should be independent..." I said prove it. You're the one dealing in supposition and making it up as you go along. watch out, he's behind you


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			What we get for 'free' is IMO pretty incredible and I for one am glad I am here at this present time!!!
		
Click to expand...

Does it not come out of our taxes then?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you see the irony in this post?
		
Click to expand...

No. In my opinion it lacked balance and as such completely ignored any good initiatives from the government. I guess I am entitled to such an opinion. I have seen many posts from him over a number of years and although he has some good knowledge of health services I find his unswerving anti Tory attitude stops him seeing both sides of the situation.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			And right as rain there it is 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I could put money on you. 🙄🙄🙄🙄


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



 Your the conspiracy theorist. I refer you to the very first sentence in your post #247, in which you say Cummings is "there to try and politically influence or steer SAGE when it should be independent..." I said prove it. You're the one dealing in supposition and making it up as you go along. watch out, he's behind you 

Click to expand...


Attendees of Sage meetings worried by presence of Cummings

Scientists on UK government’s coronavirus advisory group say Dominic Cummings was an active participant


The involvement of the prime minister’s chief political adviser, Dominic Cummings, in meetings of the scientific group advising the UK government’s response to the coronavirus has left other attendees shocked, concerned and worried for the impartiality of advice, the Guardian can reveal.

One attendee of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) said they felt Cummings’ interventions had sometimes inappropriately influenced what is supposed to be an impartial scientific process.

A second Sage attendee said they were shocked when Cummings first began participating in Sage discussions, in February, because they believed the group should be providing “unadulterated scientific data” without any political input.

The Guardian’s revelation on Friday that Sage attendees have included Cummings and Ben Warner, who worked together on the Vote Leave campaign for Brexit, caused a storm of controversy over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tings-worried-by-presence-of-dominic-cummings


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## drdel (Apr 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Does it not come out of our taxes then?
		
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Of course where else do you think a Government gets its money? You will see in my post I did put the word _*free*_ in single quotes to highlight the common inference/belief !!


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Attendees of Sage meetings worried by presence of Cummings

Scientists on UK government’s coronavirus advisory group say Dominic Cummings was an active participant


The involvement of the prime minister’s chief political adviser, Dominic Cummings, in meetings of the scientific group advising the UK government’s response to the coronavirus has left other attendees shocked, concerned and worried for the impartiality of advice, the Guardian can reveal.

One attendee of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) said they felt Cummings’ interventions had sometimes inappropriately influenced what is supposed to be an impartial scientific process.

A second Sage attendee said they were shocked when Cummings first began participating in Sage discussions, in February, because they believed the group should be providing “unadulterated scientific data” without any political input.

The Guardian’s revelation on Friday that Sage attendees have included Cummings and Ben Warner, who worked together on the Vote Leave campaign for Brexit, caused a storm of controversy over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tings-worried-by-presence-of-dominic-cummings

Click to expand...

You'd think the Guardian would have the decency to mention who these "shocked " scientists are or could it be scientists who were more shocked that they weren't selected to be on SAGE.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Attendees of Sage meetings worried by presence of Cummings

Scientists on UK government’s coronavirus advisory group say Dominic Cummings was an active participant


The involvement of the prime minister’s chief political adviser, Dominic Cummings, in meetings of the scientific group advising the UK government’s response to the coronavirus has left other attendees shocked, concerned and worried for the impartiality of advice, the Guardian can reveal.

One attendee of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) said they felt Cummings’ interventions had sometimes inappropriately influenced what is supposed to be an impartial scientific process.

A second Sage attendee said they were shocked when Cummings first began participating in Sage discussions, in February, because they believed the group should be providing “unadulterated scientific data” without any political input.

The Guardian’s revelation on Friday that Sage attendees have included Cummings and Ben Warner, who worked together on the Vote Leave campaign for Brexit, caused a storm of controversy over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tings-worried-by-presence-of-dominic-cummings

Click to expand...

Why not post up the front page of the Sun too? Seriously, you're quoting a paper that is anti-Tory, and saying its all true?  Do you see one named source? However, the article does name the person(attendee), Prof Ferguson, who doesn't feel there's anything wrong with Cummings being there. And the unnamed source... the tooth fairy?

Further down the article someone who perhaps would have a major axe to grind with Cummings, the ex-chancellor Sajid Javid, said he sees no problem with govt advisors attending and does have a poke at the media for sowing mistrust - I note you only quoted the bits that supported your argument... that kinda says something too.

And where is this storm of controversary? Plastered all over the Beeb and ITV? Wow, a silent tsunami of a storm really, this is the best evidence?


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Of course where else do you think a Government gets its money? You will see in my post I did put the word _*free*_ in single quotes to highlight the common inference/belief !!
		
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Maybe we should apportion more of our taxes then.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			What we get for 'free' is IMO pretty incredible and I for one am glad I am here at this present time!!!
		
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What we get for free is the reason I'm still here posting; without it I would be no longer, and like yourself, am very glad of it.


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## patricks148 (Apr 27, 2020)

looks like cuts started alreadyhttps://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2020/04...cbbv6loP0Giedo5ssgWi3kEAEpNWIAdkIJPTbUwNGlX-k


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## patricks148 (Apr 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Easily researched... For starters..
Overall rise in population
Aging population, more people needing treatment for longer.
Better medical care for more people, wider issues and complexity,
Cancer care extending life with expensive drugs and equipment
Raising level of expectation of 'free' care
Medical tourism
Etc

Under funding from 1960s, see data reports, easy researched!
		
Click to expand...

i see you missed out Tory cuts for the last 10 years


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You'd think the Guardian would have the decency to mention who these "shocked " scientists are or could it be scientists who were more shocked that they weren't selected to be on SAGE.
		
Click to expand...

If you read the article, you will see both scientists quoted are members of the committee. Both declined to be named, which is understandable given Cummings' reputation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You'd think the Guardian would have the decency to mention who these "shocked " scientists are or could it be scientists who were more shocked that they weren't selected to be on SAGE.
		
Click to expand...

Membership of the SAGE Coronavirus is kept secret unless the attendee themself disclose they are part of it.

Maybe part of them speaking to the guardian is on the understanding their name is witheld.

It really isn’t as straightforward as simply naming the “shocked” scientists or dismissing it as sour grapes from some other scientist.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 27, 2020)

If some of the scientists on SAGE are worried that the presence of Cummings has "inappropriately influenced what is supposed to be an impartial scientific process" then maybe those scientists need to be replaced with others who aren't influenced by the presence of someone with no, or very little, scientific knowledge.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Why not post up the front page of the Sun too? Seriously, you're quoting a paper that is anti-Tory, and saying its all true?  Do you see one named source? However, the article does name the person(attendee), Prof Ferguson, who doesn't feel there's anything wrong with Cummings being there. And the unnamed source... the tooth fairy?

Further down the article someone who perhaps would have a major axe to grind with Cummings, the ex-chancellor Sajid Javid, said he sees no problem with govt advisors attending and does have a poke at the media for sowing mistrust - I note you only quoted the bits that supported your argument... that kinda says something too.

And where is this storm of controversary? Plastered all over the Beeb and ITV? Wow, a silent tsunami of a storm really, this is the best evidence?
		
Click to expand...

A quick Google shows the story on BBC and ITV websites as well as Sky and a number of national newspapers.

I merely posted the first couple of paragraphs as well as providing a link to the full article. If I had just been picking out the bits which suited my argument, I would have included this bit - 

"The Conservative former Brexit secretary, David Davis, also criticised the attendance of Cummings and Warner at the Sage meetings. “The whole point of having Sage is you’re getting scientific advice based on the data, based on the best theories, and the best models we have at the time,” he told Sky News. “You don’t want any outside influences, either direct or indirect, either deliberate or accidental.”


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Membership of the SAGE Coronavirus is kept secret unless the attendee themself disclose they are part of it.

Maybe part of them speaking to the guardian is on the understanding their name is witheld.

It really isn’t as straightforward as simply naming the “shocked” scientists or dismissing it as sour grapes from some other scientist.
		
Click to expand...

And if there were any shenanigans it will all come out but I'm not convinced that high grade scientists worth anything would be worried about Cummings and seeing as Willey admitted on national TV as to his membership why would people who thought that something was going on wouldn't come out in the open. There is also the evidence by a named member that nothing wrong or inappropriate was going on.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And if there were any shenanigans it will all come out but I'm not convinced that high grade scientists worth anything would be worried about Cummings and seeing as Willey admitted on national TV as to his membership why would people who thought that something was going on wouldn't come out in the open. There is also the evidence by a named member that nothing wrong or inappropriate was going on.
		
Click to expand...

Just pointing out it’s not so easy to just name these people if they don’t wish to be named.

It wouldn’t be the first time a Government has been accussed of taking bad advice from a so called  “expert”.

If there’s no issue then why not name the SAGE and publish the advice they are following?


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A quick Google shows the story on BBC and ITV websites as well as Sky and a number of national newspapers.

I merely posted the first couple of paragraphs as well as providing a link to the full article. If I had just been picking out the bits which suited my argument, I would have included this bit -

"The Conservative former Brexit secretary, David Davis, also criticised the attendance of Cummings and Warner at the Sage meetings. “The whole point of having Sage is you’re getting scientific advice based on the data, based on the best theories, and the best models we have at the time,” he told Sky News. “You don’t want any outside influences, either direct or indirect, either deliberate or accidental.”
		
Click to expand...

A member of the committee who has the gonads to say his name is saying nothing strange in Cummings being there and he is not involved in any of the scientific recommendations so who do you choose to believe, the choice is yours.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A quick Google shows the story on BBC and ITV websites as well as Sky and a number of national newspapers.

I merely posted the first couple of paragraphs as well as providing a link to the full article. If I had just been picking out the bits which suited my argument, I would have included this bit -

"The Conservative former Brexit secretary, David Davis, also criticised the attendance of Cummings and Warner at the Sage meetings. “The whole point of having Sage is you’re getting scientific advice based on the data, based on the best theories, and the best models we have at the time,” he told Sky News. “You don’t want any outside influences, either direct or indirect, either deliberate or accidental.”
		
Click to expand...

We could take turns at this. You believe one thing, and I believe something else. As an aside, and for clarity, I'd prefer a socialist(Labour) govt, so please don't think I have a Tory bias. However, I prefer my evidence to be nailed on facts, not opinions and editorials.

I don't for one minute think any government of any flavour would risk doing anything stupid. Why? If it comes out that they deliberately did something stupid their chance of being re-elected would be close on zero. Do you think Boris, the 1922 Committee and the rest of the Tory party are that stupid? Do you think they'd let Cummings influence Sage?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We could take turns at this. You believe one thing, and I believe something else. As an aside, and for clarity, I'd prefer a socialist(Labour) govt, so please don't think I have a Tory bias. However, I prefer my evidence to be nailed on facts, not opinions and editorials.

I don't for one minute think any government of any flavour would risk doing anything stupid. Why? If it comes out that they deliberately did something stupid their chance of being re-elected would be close on zero. Do you think Boris, the 1922 Committee and the rest of the Tory party are that stupid? Do you think they'd let Cummings influence Sage?
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t be the first time a SPAD has been accussed of influencing “experts”

David Kelly anyone?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We could take turns at this. You believe one thing, and I believe something else. As an aside, and for clarity, I'd prefer a socialist(Labour) govt, so please don't think I have a Tory bias. However, I prefer my evidence to be nailed on facts, not opinions and editorials.

I don't for one minute think any government of any flavour would risk doing anything stupid. Why? If it comes out that they deliberately did something stupid their chance of being re-elected would be close on zero. Do you think Boris, the 1922 Committee and the rest of the Tory party are that stupid? Do you think they'd let Cummings influence Sage?
		
Click to expand...

I'll leave you to decide whether the following is criminal or merely "stupid"

In January this year, Covid-19 was officially designated a High Consequence Infectious Disease (HCID). The decision was made in consultation with a group of British experts.
A Health and Safety Executive evaluation of PPE published in 2019 had already recommended that all healthcare workers should wear a gown, FFP3 respirator mask and visor when dealing with HCIDs.
Those recommendations were in line with existing UK guidance.





Image captionAn NHS worker is pictured wearing a plastic bag as a hair cover
But on 13 March this year, the government downgraded its guidance on PPE and told NHS staff they were safe to wear less protective aprons and basic surgical masks in all but the most high risk circumstances.
Panorama understands that on the same day, the government took steps to remove Covid-19 from the list of HCIDs.
But the experts who had recommended the coronavirus be put on the list in the first place were not consulted. Instead, the government asked its Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP).
Panorama has discovered that the ACDP was only asked to consider the matter on the morning of its 13 March meeting. It was added to the committee's agenda under "any other business".
The committee backed the decision to remove Covid-19 from the HCID list, but sources on that committee have told Panorama that it had to be, in part, a pragmatic decision based on the availability of PPE.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I'll leave you to decide whether the following is criminal or merely "stupid"

In January this year, Covid-19 was officially designated a High Consequence Infectious Disease (HCID). The decision was made in consultation with a group of British experts.
A Health and Safety Executive evaluation of PPE published in 2019 had already recommended that all healthcare workers should wear a gown, FFP3 respirator mask and visor when dealing with HCIDs.
Those recommendations were in line with existing UK guidance.





Image captionAn NHS worker is pictured wearing a plastic bag as a hair cover
But on 13 March this year, the government downgraded its guidance on PPE and told NHS staff they were safe to wear less protective aprons and basic surgical masks in all but the most high risk circumstances.
Panorama understands that on the same day, the government took steps to remove Covid-19 from the list of HCIDs.
But the experts who had recommended the coronavirus be put on the list in the first place were not consulted. Instead, the government asked its Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP).
Panorama has discovered that the ACDP was only asked to consider the matter on the morning of its 13 March meeting. It was added to the committee's agenda under "any other business".
The committee backed the decision to remove Covid-19 from the HCID list, but sources on that committee have told Panorama that it had to be, in part, a pragmatic decision based on the availability of PPE.
		
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Criminally stupid?


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## Kellfire (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We could take turns at this. You believe one thing, and I believe something else. As an aside, and for clarity, I'd prefer a socialist(Labour) govt, so please don't think I have a Tory bias. However, I prefer my evidence to be nailed on facts, not opinions and editorials.

I don't for one minute think any government of any flavour would risk doing anything stupid. Why? If it comes out that they deliberately did something stupid their chance of being re-elected would be close on zero. Do you think Boris, the 1922 Committee and the rest of the Tory party are that stupid? Do you think they'd let Cummings influence Sage?
		
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Don’t you think we now live in an age where people are too easily fooled by the media and rarely change their politic opinions because they would see it as admitting a mistake?

Boris Johnson is our Prime Minister. We voted for Brexit for real once and then reinforced that with subsequent elections which became de facto votes on Brexit. We keep getting it wrong and people don’t learn. The more affluent and more highly educated in society finally became more thoughtful in general but the working class and poor inexplicably have moved towards voting for sound bites and lies, ignoring evidence and history. 

We’re not quite at Trump levels yet but I wouldn’t trust the Tories not to make a self serving decision in the face of what’s best for the public if they felt they could spin it.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 27, 2020)

I work in the offshore industry, where currently my main focus is windfarms and identifying (mainly WWII) unexploded ordinance (UXO) before installation of wind turbines, to avoid any potential risks. I would probably be considered to be an expert in my field, in the same way that those on the SAGE committee are. If the survey identifies what I consider to be a potential UXO risk then that is what I put in my report. It doesn't matter what the contractor thinks should be in there, what the client thinks should be in there, or what anyone else who might be attending the meetings thinks should be in there, if I consider there to be a risk then I will go through the data and explain my reasoning to my office and that is what will be reported. 

If the scientists on the SAGE committee are not strong enough, or are too insecure, to stand up to outside influence (whether from Cummings or the Government) then that is the real scandal that needs to be investigated.


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## 2blue (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I'll leave you to decide whether the following is criminal or merely "stupid"

In January this year, Covid-19 was officially designated a High Consequence Infectious Disease (HCID). The decision was made in consultation with a group of British experts.
A Health and Safety Executive evaluation of PPE published in 2019 had already recommended that all healthcare workers should wear a gown, FFP3 respirator mask and visor when dealing with HCIDs.
Those recommendations were in line with existing UK guidance.





Image captionAn NHS worker is pictured wearing a plastic bag as a hair cover
But on 13 March this year, the government downgraded its guidance on PPE and told NHS staff they were safe to wear less protective aprons and basic surgical masks in all but the most high risk circumstances.
Panorama understands that on the same day, the government took steps to remove Covid-19 from the list of HCIDs.
But the experts who had recommended the coronavirus be put on the list in the first place were not consulted. Instead, the government asked its Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP).
Panorama has discovered that the ACDP was only asked to consider the matter on the morning of its 13 March meeting. It was added to the committee's agenda under "any other business".
The committee backed the decision to remove Covid-19 from the HCID list, but sources on that committee have told Panorama that it had to be, in part, a pragmatic decision based on the availability of PPE.
		
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If this is correct then the feelings I had many. many weeks ago that the NHS had been hung-out-to-dry has been vindicated.......   & many of their dedicated work force are gone!!


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I'll leave you to decide whether the following is criminal or merely "stupid"

In January this year, Covid-19 was officially designated a High Consequence Infectious Disease (HCID). The decision was made in consultation with a group of British experts.
A Health and Safety Executive evaluation of PPE published in 2019 had already recommended that all healthcare workers should wear a gown, FFP3 respirator mask and visor when dealing with HCIDs.
Those recommendations were in line with existing UK guidance.





Image captionAn NHS worker is pictured wearing a plastic bag as a hair cover
But on 13 March this year, the government downgraded its guidance on PPE and told NHS staff they were safe to wear less protective aprons and basic surgical masks in all but the most high risk circumstances.
Panorama understands that on the same day, the government took steps to remove Covid-19 from the list of HCIDs.
But the experts who had recommended the coronavirus be put on the list in the first place were not consulted. Instead, the government asked its Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP).
Panorama has discovered that the ACDP was only asked to consider the matter on the morning of its 13 March meeting. It was added to the committee's agenda under "any other business".
The committee backed the decision to remove Covid-19 from the HCID list, but sources on that committee have told Panorama that it had to be, in part, a pragmatic decision based on the availability of PPE.
		
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I look forward to the answers on the re-designation. When I heard as it happened I had my doubts.

But on the photo above; is it real or staged? Why do I ask that? For the sake of argument lets assume most hospitals have 20 (main) theatres, a Day Surgery Unit - most have more. All elective surgery has been cancelled. In one theatre there'd be a surgeon, an anaesthetist, scrub nurse, theatre sister at least. 4x hats x20 theatres. A minimum of 80 hats a day not used. And how many staff take the hat, gloves etc off for lunch, especially if they're going down to the canteen. 100 hats a day not used, a 100 masks a day not used? How many extra staff to man an extra 30 beds in the hospital x2 shifts? Would that be 100 staff? Really? I'm really sceptical about that photo.

Just over a week ago I rang a Senior Sister, who was working in ITU in one of the London hospitals. I asked the question about PPE. She said she had enough. I asked for how long, and she replied we're ok, nothing to worry about. I asked her about the type of face mask they had, and she replied that they had the right ones for the job - she also said she'd gone out and bought the all-singing all-dancing version for herself because she sweated too much in the FFP3 masks.

I don't doubt there are some serious questions to be answered on PPE, and I don't doubt there's been shortages. But I do wonder what exactly the truth is in it all.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 27, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I work in the offshore industry, where currently my main focus is windfarms and identifying (mainly WWII) unexploded ordinance (UXO) before installation of wind turbines, to avoid any potential risks. I would probably be considered to be an expert in my field, in the same way that those on the SAGE committee are. If the survey identifies what I consider to be a potential UXO risk then that is what I put in my report. It doesn't matter what the contractor thinks should be in there, what the client thinks should be in there, or what anyone else who might be attending the meetings thinks should be in there, if I consider there to be a risk then I will go through the data and explain my reasoning to my office and that is what will be reported.

If the scientists on the SAGE committee are not strong enough, or are too insecure, to stand up to outside influence (whether from Cummings or the Government) then that is the real scandal that needs to be investigated.
		
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Exactly, and we are not talking about one scientist, we are talking in excess of a dozen. Are they all,  weak and easily led or threatened by someone that is , in reality and in their view, in intellectual terms , not their equal.?
Of course not. If one were "advised to stay quiet or else"  etc, do you think they wouldn't back each other.
Imagine the majority of SAG alleging undue interference and threats.
Especially in these circumstances.
As I've said - all hell would break loose.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I look forward to the answers on the re-designation. When I heard as it happened I had my doubts.

But on the photo above; is it real or staged? Why do I ask that? For the sake of argument lets assume most hospitals have 20 (main) theatres, a Day Surgery Unit - most have more. All elective surgery has been cancelled. In one theatre there'd be a surgeon, an anaesthetist, scrub nurse, theatre sister at least. 4x hats x20 theatres. A minimum of 80 hats a day not used. And how many staff take the hat, gloves etc off for lunch, especially if they're going down to the canteen. 100 hats a day not used, a 100 masks a day not used? How many extra staff to man an extra 30 beds in the hospital x2 shifts? Would that be 100 staff? Really? I'm really sceptical about that photo.

Just over a week ago I rang a Senior Sister, who was working in ITU in one of the London hospitals. I asked the question about PPE. She said she had enough. I asked for how long, and she replied we're ok, nothing to worry about. I asked her about the type of face mask they had, and she replied that they had the right ones for the job - she also said she'd gone out and bought the all-singing all-dancing version for herself because she sweated too much in the FFP3 masks.

I don't doubt there are some serious questions to be answered on PPE, and I don't doubt there's been shortages. But I do wonder what exactly the truth is in it all.
		
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It does make you wonder at times what's going on. A week ago the press were saying we were going to run out of PPE any day now and even if the delivery turned up from Turkey it would only last three days. Now I cant say I've heard anything about PPE  for three or four days. What's changed, surely by the scare stories we should have run out by the week end.

I find it rather incredible that so many are suggesting the Government are completely reckless and wanting to look after their wealthy chums rather that the NHS and seriously I'll patients.  Surely Ministers dont make all these detailed decisions and control the procurement chains, logistic experts and medical + scientific professionals would also be culpable if these conspiracy theories were true.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Don’t you think we now live in an age where people are too easily fooled by the media and rarely change their politic opinions because they would see it as admitting a mistake?

Boris Johnson is our Prime Minister. We voted for Brexit for real once and then reinforced that with subsequent elections which became de facto votes on Brexit. We keep getting it wrong and people don’t learn. The more affluent and more highly educated in society finally became more thoughtful in general but the working class and poor inexplicably have moved towards voting for sound bites and lies, ignoring evidence and history.

We’re not quite at Trump levels yet but I wouldn’t trust the Tories not to make a self serving decision in the face of what’s best for the public if they felt they could spin it.
		
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But which media. The one that supports a blue party or the one that supports a red party? The one that continually asks shallow, sensationalist questions? As for people changing, isn't that how different parties end up in power. Tories got in with a massive seat majority but not a massive majority in votes.

Brexit; I don't want Brexit but I respect that the majority do. Do you respect their choice? No you don't. You take the superior line of you know best. No you don't know best, you know differently. That's where we'll never agree. I respect everyone as equals, for all your hard left beliefs of what's best for society it has to be a society on your very narrow terms, not the majorities terms. And I actually think that's rather sad, to have such a dismissive attitude of the population.

Do I think the Tory's will make a self-serving decision? Yes I do. At the end of the day that decision is worth votes. Do they throw votes away or do they chose what will, in effect, buy them votes? Not a hard equation is it. All parties will put up what they think will buy votes, and then its down to the people's choice.


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## Kellfire (Apr 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But which media. The one that supports a blue party or the one that supports a red party? The one that continually asks shallow, sensationalist questions? As for people changing, isn't that how different parties end up in power. Tories got in with a massive seat majority but not a massive majority in votes.

Brexit; I don't want Brexit but I respect that the majority do. Do you respect their choice? No you don't. You take the superior line of you know best. No you don't know best, you know differently. That's where we'll never agree. I respect everyone as equals, for all your hard left beliefs of what's best for society it has to be a society on your very narrow terms, not the majorities terms. And I actually think that's rather sad, to have such a dismissive attitude of the population.

Do I think the Tory's will make a self-serving decision? Yes I do. At the end of the day that decision is worth votes. Do they throw votes away or do they chose what will, in effect, buy them votes? Not a hard equation is it. All parties will put up what they think will buy votes, and then its down to the people's choice.
		
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Brexit will either benefit us or make us worse off in the UK - so far it’s worse off and the overwhelming evidence is that will be the case medium to long term. 

Some things ARE right and wrong and when a wrong decision is made even when the forecasters say it will be wrong, then that’s fairy damning.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Brexit will either benefit us or make us worse off in the UK - so far it’s worse off and the overwhelming evidence is that will be the case medium to long term.

Some things ARE right and wrong and when a wrong decision is made even when the forecasters say it will be wrong, then that’s fairy damning.
		
Click to expand...

And some people knew there'd be a hit to the economy but chose to do so for political reasons. That doesn't make them wrong, just different. I might not agree with their politics but I won't damn them for it. As for forecasters... we'll see.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 28, 2020)

When the media is in 'normal' mode and attacking the red team those to the right lap it up... BIG thumbs up all round 👍... Now, unusually, the media is putting the Tories under close scrutiny... Team blue, to coin a phrase, are not liking it up 'em!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			When the media is in 'normal' mode and attacking the red team those to the right lap it up... BIG thumbs up all round 👍... Now, unusually, the media is putting the Tories under close scrutiny... Team blue, to coin a phrase, are not liking it up 'em!
		
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That may be your perception. 

However, if we compare this national crisis with Blair's handling of the Iraq war we can see that the MSM remained supportive throughout the actual conflict. 

It was only subsequent to the action that a more critical eye was turned.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			That may be your perception.

However, if we compare this national crisis with Blair's handling of the Iraq war we can see that the MSM remained supportive throughout the actual conflict.

It was only subsequent to the action that a more critical eye was turned.
		
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Bottom line is that all anyone is posting is their perception/opinion... In general, printed media is not known for being left friendly... Yes, I acknowledge there are a couple of exceptions to that...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			That may be your perception.

However, if we compare this national crisis with Blair's handling of the Iraq war we can see that the MSM remained supportive throughout the actual conflict.

It was only subsequent to the action that a more critical eye was turned.
		
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Sorry, that’s you with the selective memory, blair and his Government were (rightly) dragged through the mire in the build up to the invasion and the dossier saga, then during it over the sh!te kit the Troops were being issued.

During the conflict the MSM got behind the Troops and rightly supported them, no different to the MSM getting behind the NHS Staff and Key Workers now.




ColchesterFC said:



			I work in the offshore industry, where currently my main focus is windfarms and identifying (mainly WWII) unexploded ordinance (UXO) before installation of wind turbines, to avoid any potential risks. I would probably be considered to be an expert in my field, in the same way that those on the SAGE committee are. If the survey identifies what I consider to be a potential UXO risk then that is what I put in my report. It doesn't matter what the contractor thinks should be in there, what the client thinks should be in there, or what anyone else who might be attending the meetings thinks should be in there, if I consider there to be a risk then I will go through the data and explain my reasoning to my office and that is what will be reported.

If the scientists on the SAGE committee are not strong enough, or are too insecure, to stand up to outside influence (whether from Cummings or the Government) then that is the real scandal that needs to be investigated.
		
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As much as I agree with the sentiment and your principles, it’s a bit naive to think nobody in a position of responsibility like you mention can’t be influenced.
Some people are weak or easily influenced or simply out of their depth, how many admit that to themselves would be another question though.

Sadly some on here are taking every question about what’s going on as an anti-tory dig, that’s ridiculous, some questions need asking regardless of who is in charge and what colour rosette they wear.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry, that’s you with the selective memory, blair and his Government were (rightly) dragged through the mire in the build up to the invasion and the dossier saga, then during it over the sh!te kit the Troops were being issued.

During the conflict the MSM got behind the Troops and rightly supported them, no different to the MSM getting behind the NHS Staff and Key Workers now.



As much as I agree with the sentiment and your principles, it’s a bit naive to think nobody in a position of responsibility like you mention can’t be influenced.
Some people are weak or easily influenced or simply out of their depth, how many admit that to themselves would be another question though.

Sadly some on here are taking every question about what’s going on as an anti-tory dig, that’s ridiculous, some questions need asking regardless of who is in charge and what colour rosette they wear.
		
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Good points, although I would ask would every member of a full technical committee be influenced. Equally, we're not there. There may be scenarios where the scientific evidence says one thing but logistically its impossible to achieve, e.g. every COVID patient should be in single rooms.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 28, 2020)

It's as if the BBC get stuck on a subject and keep going despite what else might be happening. Mind you if anyone ever watches Points of View then basically the answer to every criticism is "we're right, you're wrong".

So they keep banging on about the plan to come out of lockdown and seem to have left PPE for now despite one of their own programmes highlighting decisions that require serious questioning. Panorama "understands" doesn't mean it's fact but ministers need to be questioned and pushed. This morning they had a minister on (can't recall her name/title but something to do with social care I think) and asked her about this allegation and she talked about the current situation, avoided the question, and wasn't really pushed. For the first time I'm thinking Louise was justified to interrupt and get at her but she didn't.

I've really lost faith in our public service broadcaster to be balanced, informative and factual.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Good points, although I would ask would every member of a full technical committee be influenced. Equally, we're not there. There may be scenarios where the scientific evidence says one thing but logistically its impossible to achieve, e.g. every COVID patient should be in single rooms.
		
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Sounds weird Bri (coming from me) but my only interest in this SAGE make-up is to why it needs to be secret and identities protected, ie, are they the “right” experts? Sadly the term experts is banded around and everyone is simply meant to nod their head and accept it.
Experts have been wrong in the past and have caused Governments problems.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry, that’s you with the selective memory, blair and his Government were (rightly) dragged through the mire in the build up to the invasion and the dossier saga, then during it over the sh!te kit the Troops were being issued.

During the conflict the MSM got behind the Troops and rightly supported them, no different to the MSM getting behind the NHS Staff and Key Workers now.



As much as I agree with the sentiment and your principles, it’s a bit naive to think nobody in a position of responsibility like you mention can’t be influenced.
Some people are weak or easily influenced or simply out of their depth, how many admit that to themselves would be another question though.

Sadly some on here are taking every question about what’s going on as an anti-tory dig, that’s ridiculous, some questions need asking regardless of who is in charge and what colour rosette they wear.
		
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Prior to the conflict the media was mixed in supporting or not the conflict until the dodgy dossier. 

The contents of which were accepted both by the media and the majority in Parliament. 

Only afterwards did that support wane once it became clear that we as a nation had gone to war on a false premise. 

Aside from a very few journalists there were not any questioning the Govt's day to day handling of the war.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sounds weird Bri (coming from me) but my only interest in this SAGE make-up is to why it needs to be secret and identities protected, ie, are they the “right” experts? Sadly the term experts is banded around and everyone is simply meant to nod their head and accept it.
Experts have been wrong in the past and have caused Governments problems.
		
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But who, other than more "experts", decides who are the right "experts"?

Is this something that can only be assessed after the event with the benefit of hindsight and a full independent review?

My point is that the media seem to be trying to lay traps with their constant pressure for targets on deaths, R factor  and end to lockdown rather than being constructive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Prior to the conflict the media was mixed in supporting or not the conflict until the dodgy dossier.

The contents of which were accepted both by the media and the majority in Parliament.

Only afterwards did that support wane once it became clear that we as a nation had gone to war on a false premise.

Aside from a very few journalists there were not any questioning the Govt's day to day handling of the war.
		
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That’s reality though, once we put Troops on the ground, in any scenario, the Country backs them, maybe, just maybe though, the MSM have learnt not to take everything a Government says without question and by stepping up and asking awkward questions during a crisis lives maybe saved on the front line.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I*t's as if the BBC get stuck on a subject and keep going despite what else might be happening*. Mind you if anyone ever watches Points of View then basically the answer to every criticism is "we're right, you're wrong".

So they keep banging on about the plan to come out of lockdown and seem to have left PPE for now despite one of their own programmes highlighting decisions that require serious questioning. Panorama "understands" doesn't mean it's fact but ministers need to be questioned and pushed. This morning they had a minister on (can't recall her name/title but something to do with social care I think) and asked her about this allegation and she talked about the current situation, avoided the question, and wasn't really pushed. For the first time I'm thinking Louise was justified to interrupt and get at her but she didn't.

I've really lost faith in our public service broadcaster to be balanced, informative and factual.
		
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Just about every paper is covering the lockdown or PPE at the moment. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-52450126


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But who, other than more "experts", decides who are the right "experts"?

Is this something that can only be assessed after the event with the benefit of hindsight and a full independent review?

My point is that the media seem to be trying to lay traps with their constant pressure for targets on deaths, R factor  and end to lockdown rather than being constructive.
		
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Is that because questions are being ignored? ie, “we’re following the science” that’s it, sound bytes.

Surely in a crisis such as this that affects everyone they should have nothing to hide.

https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...-scientists-medical?__twitter_impression=true

The above is from The Guardian, which some will write off as leftist etc, but what if if just for a minute it’s correct.
How long before the “right” experts are brought in?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			As much as I agree with the sentiment and your principles, it’s a bit naive to think nobody in a position of responsibility like you mention can’t be influenced.
Some people are weak or easily influenced or simply out of their depth, how many admit that to themselves would be another question though.
		
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Yes it's possible for a person to be influenced. But it's not just a single person that needs to be influenced, it's the entire advisory group of how ever many that is. I can't see how Cummings can be influencing the advisory group without at least one of them making it public or quitting the group.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			Easily researched... For starters..
Overall rise in population
Aging population, more people needing treatment for longer.
Better medical care for more people, wider issues and complexity,
Cancer care extending life with expensive drugs and equipment
Raising level of expectation of 'free' care
Medical tourism
Etc

Under funding from 1960s, see data reports, easy researched!
		
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Get that, but that must be balanced out by savings due to advanced keyhole surgery and much quicker recovery periods.
Things like knee and hip reconstruction used to take months of recovery. My Missus had two major operations three years ago and in both cases was out of hospital in a few days.
Childbirth is sometimes a one day hospital visit, as we were surprised to hear from my niece


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes it's possible for a person to be influenced. But it's not just a single person that needs to be influenced, it's the entire advisory group of how ever many that is. I can't see how Cummings can be influencing the advisory group without at least one of them making it public or quitting the group.
		
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Maybe by his sheer presence because of the way he’s portrayed in the media.

Maybe none what so whatever, but if it’s not an issue, then the Government should come out and put the record straight, ie, prevent it from becoming a story.

It’s ok blaming the media on this, but the Government do have the ability to stop these stories dead in their tracks or a cynic could say while the media are distracted by a non-story they are missing the real stories.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Good points, although I would ask would every member of a full technical committee be influenced. Equally, we're not there. There may be scenarios where the scientific evidence says one thing but logistically its impossible to achieve, e.g. every COVID patient should be in single rooms.
		
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Exactly right re the committee. It is an overwhelming argument. - would more than a dozen scientific people, at the top of their profession, *all*, without one dissension, be influenced by Cummings, a PR man, whom nearly all journalists want to "bring down". Any one of the committee threatened or upset by him could go to the Media, and bring him down, big time.
Yet the anti - government  here see him as some sort of Caligula or Rasputin.!


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Get that, but that must be balanced out by savings due to advanced keyhole surgery and much quicker recovery periods.
Things like knee and hip reconstruction used to take months of recovery. My Missus had two major operations three years ago and in both cases was out of hospital in a few days.
Childbirth is sometimes a one day hospital visit, as we were surprised to hear from my niece
		
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Just a quick one D. Far from making savings because stays are shorter, when your Missis left hospital someone else will have been in that bed. Operating theatres and maternity wards are as busy, if not busier, than they've ever been. More operations per day = more costs. And some of the recovery costs have been pushed out to the Community Trusts, as GP's and District Nurses play a bigger part in recovery.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly right re the committee. It is an overwhelming argument. - would more than a dozen scientific people, at the top of their profession, *all*, without one dissension, be influenced by Cummings, a PR man, whom nearly all journalists want to "bring down". Any one of the committee threatened or upset by him could go to the Media, and bring him down, big time.
Yet the anti - government  here see him as some sort of Caligula or Rasputin.!
		
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Who said all these “experts” are, in your words “more than a dozen scientific people, at the top of their profession” are they actually that or would these so called anti-government posters, as you called them, be right in asking you if you are *so* pro-government you believe everything the government tells you?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just a quick one D. Far from making savings because stays are shorter, when your Missis left hospital someone else will have been in that bed. Operating theatres and maternity wards are as busy, if not busier, than they've ever been. More operations per day = more costs. And some of the recovery costs have been pushed out to the Community Trusts, as GP's and District Nurses play a bigger part in recovery.
		
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I naturally get the growing population thing, but a growing population also equals a bigger tax take.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I naturally get the growing population thing, but a growing population also equals a bigger tax take.
		
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In that case we must be rolling in dosh.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sounds weird Bri (coming from me) but my only interest in this SAGE make-up is to why it needs to be secret and identities protected, ie, are they the “right” experts? Sadly the term experts is banded around and everyone is simply meant to nod their head and accept it.
Experts have been wrong in the past and have caused Governments problems.
		
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Its a tough one. Here's an off the cuff thought. Can you imagine the swarms of media being camped outside the houses of the 'experts,' looking for that exclusive quote or delivering a question designed to trip up one of the scientists? It would be mental. I think keeping them anonymised is the right thing to do.

As for the minutes of the meetings, how many would understand the detail? Do I want to read an editorialised version that has a Times/Independent/Guardian/Mirror/Express etc slant?

As for nodding and accepting. Held to account in a constructive way, yes. But I'll come back to something I posted previously. Does anyone seriously think the Tory Party/govt will prejudice its future by doing the wrong things? Get this wrong and the Labour Party, the media and the electorate will never ever forgive them. This would be more than a little screw up, it would be terminal for the party.


----------



## rudebhoy (Apr 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It does make you wonder at times what's going on. A week ago the press were saying we were going to run out of PPE any day now and even if the delivery turned up from Turkey it would only last three days. Now I cant say I've heard anything about PPE  for three or four days. What's changed, surely by the scare stories we should have run out by the week end.
		
Click to expand...

Leftie rag still banging on about PPE shortages this morning. Don't they know it's good news week?


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

*Thread Daily Roundup*
Government cant manage the situation and only care about their rich mates.
Medical and Scientific experts are easily led and make similar errors to the Government.
The press are doing a great job repeating the same old questions.
Any posts in support of the government are biased.
A few posters on here could run the country and manage the Covid Pandemic better.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Leftie rag still banging on about PPE shortages this morning. Don't they know it's good news week?

View attachment 30296

Click to expand...

But it's the DM, has to be lies.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one. Here's an off the cuff thought. Can you imagine the swarms of media being camped outside the houses of the 'experts,' looking for that exclusive quote or delivering a question designed to trip up one of the scientists? It would be mental. I think keeping them anonymised is the right thing to do.

As for the minutes of the meetings, how many would understand the detail? Do I want to read an editorialised version that has a Times/Independent/Guardian/Mirror/Express etc slant?

As for nodding and accepting. Held to account in a constructive way, yes. But I'll come back to something I posted previously. Does anyone seriously think the Tory Party/govt will prejudice its future by doing the wrong things? Get this wrong and the Labour Party, the media and the electorate will never ever forgive them. This would be more than a little screw up, it would be terminal for the party.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest though Bri, I’ve not once criticised the Government during this crisis, yes I have questions, but those questions I am happy to leave to people far more intelligent than I.

What if there are other “experts” out there who could understand the minutes and maybe spot a flaw or add quality to the SAGE? 

It’s not the fact that the tory party/government may purposely prejudice its future by doing things wrong, it’s more the fact they may be being badly advised or not getting the latest information due to their prejudices and I’d be happy to for them to change their plans on a daily basis if it is proved to be in OUR best interests.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			To be honest though Bri, I’ve not once criticised the Government during this crisis, yes I have questions, but those questions I am happy to leave to people far more intelligent than I.

What if there are other “experts” out there who could understand the minutes and maybe spot a flaw or add quality to the SAGE?

It’s not the fact that the tory party/government may purposely prejudice its future by doing things wrong, it’s more the fact they may be being badly advised or not getting the latest information due to their prejudices and I’d be happy to for them to change their plans on a daily basis if it is proved to be in OUR best interests.
		
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But isn't that the problem?

We none of us know who are the "right" experts and so many of those now commenting seem to have an axe to grind. 

I read the piece from the Guardian which you referenced and found it thought provoking.  

But then I did some background checking on Prof Costello and found him to be consistently critical of the Government and very pro-WHO whose actions themselves have been called into question by many.

End result? Another poor bloody member of the public who doesn't know if our political masters are receiving the right advice and from the right people. 

I suppose that on this one we have got to go with what we got!

(But ask plenty of questions afterwards).😕


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			It's as if the BBC get stuck on a subject and keep going despite what else might be happening. Mind you if anyone ever watches Points of View then basically the answer to every criticism is "we're right, you're wrong".

So they keep banging on about the plan to come out of lockdown and seem to have left PPE for now despite one of their own programmes highlighting decisions that require serious questioning. Panorama "understands" doesn't mean it's fact but ministers need to be questioned and pushed. This morning they had a minister on (can't recall her name/title but something to do with social care I think) and asked her about this allegation and she talked about the current situation, avoided the question, and wasn't really pushed. For the first time I'm thinking Louise was justified to interrupt and get at her but she didn't.

I've really lost faith in our public service broadcaster to be balanced, informative and factual.
		
Click to expand...

You really, really need to watch and listen to other broadcast news outlets and *then* tell us that the BBC is in fact less balanced, informative or factual than they .  Because the continual battering of the BBC is IMO unmerited and can quite frankly become tiresome.  Just listen to some of the commentators and news presenters on ITN and on Sky News - especially when reviewing the papers...listen to some of the presenters on LBC - then tell me BBC is unbalanced and uninformative.

Some may not like daily reporting of problems with PPE supply and testing as they feel it might reflect badly on the government - but these are actually two of the absolutely most important issues of each and every day at the moment.  There is probably little of greater importance than these two topics other than the number of deaths and numbers of infected - yet when these numbers are reported the BBC is accused of obsessing over numbers...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But isn't that the problem?

We none of us know who are the "right" experts and so many of those now commenting seem to have an axe to grind.

I read the piece from the Guardian which you referenced and found it thought provoking. 

But then I did some background checking on Prof Costello and found him to be consistently critical of the Government and very pro-WHO whose actions themselves have been called into question by many.

End result? Another poor bloody member of the public who doesn't know if our political masters are receiving the right advice and from the right people.

I suppose that on this one we have got to go with what we got!

(But ask plenty of questions afterwards).😕
		
Click to expand...

Again though mate, what’s the issue with asking questions during the crisis? Not every question is a criticism and afterwards maybe too late.
What if a question helps?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really, really need to watch and listen to other broadcast news outlets and *then* tell us that the BBC is in fact less balanced, informative or factual than they .  Because the continual battering of the BBC is IMO unmerited and can quite frankly become tiresome.
		
Click to expand...

Do you truly not see the irony in your last sentence?

If not I suggest that you read again many of your own posts, particularly on Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

Just read a release that said this:
*Coronavirus ‘currently eliminated’ in New Zealand*

It then goes on to say : "*There were just five new Covid-19 cases reported on Monday*"
maybe  'virtually' would have been better.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though mate, what’s the issue with asking questions during the crisis? Not every question is a criticism and afterwards maybe too late.
What if a question helps?
		
Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with questions being asked.  

Where I do have an issue is the same bloody question being asked over and over (such as on lockdown) after it has been answered and in the hope of someone tripping up by committing to  a target. 

Also where the journalist seems to have reached a conclusion yet the situation is constantly evolving.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Do you truly not see the irony in your last sentence?

If not I suggest that you read again many of your own posts, particularly on Brexit.
		
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Ah yes - I thought I'd have the personal comeback...but I decided to post it in any case.  Comparing me with the BBC is not exactly comparing like with like is it - but hey.

And so let me chuck back into the pot the 1billion pieces of PPE the government was telling us they'd delivered.  Yes I whanged on about wondering what that 1bn comprised of until I could no longer be bothered asking the question as I was told I was being tedious - and why need I know...well...in the interests of the clarity and honesty that Johnson is promising...


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## AmandaJR (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*You really, really need to watch and listen to other broadcast news outlets *and *then* tell us that the BBC is in fact less balanced, informative or factual than they .  Because the continual battering of the BBC is IMO unmerited and can quite frankly become tiresome.  Just listen to some of the commentators and news presenters on ITN and on Sky News - especially when reviewing the papers...listen to some of the presenters on LBC - then tell me BBC is unbalanced and uninformative.

Some may not like daily reporting of problems with PPE supply and testing as they feel it might reflect badly on the government - but these are actually two of the absolutely most important issues of each and every day at the moment.  There is probably little of greater importance than these two topics other than the number of deaths and numbers of infected - yet when these numbers are reported the BBC is accused of obsessing over numbers...
		
Click to expand...

*Why? *I'm not drawing a comparison of the BBC versus others rather than commenting on what the BBC are doing.

If I'm becoming tiresome please feel free to skip over my posts or, better still, put me on ignore.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I don't have a problem with questions being asked. 

Where I do have an issue is the same bloody question being asked over and over (such as on lockdown) after it has been answered and in the hope of someone tripping up by committing to  a target.

Also where the journalist seems to have reached a conclusion yet the situation is constantly evolving.
		
Click to expand...

Then treat those questions like some of the posters on here.......ignore them.

I’ve virtually stopped watching all TV News now and will sit down on an evening and read it all online from every available source, both national and international.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah yes - I thought I'd have the personal comeback...but I decided to post it in any case.  Comparing me with the BBC is not exactly comparing like with like is it - but hey.

And so let me chuck back into the pot the 1billion pieces of PPE the government was telling us they'd delivered.  Yes I whanged on about wondering what that 1bn comprised of until I could no longer be bothered asking the question as I was told I was being tedious - and why need I know...well...in the interests of the clarity and honesty that Johnson is promising...
		
Click to expand...

 Who, other than yourself, has compared you to the BBC?

You were critical of another poster for criticising the BBC and you finding that criticism tiresome. 

I am merely suggesting that many may have found your continual sniping at the Brexit process equally or even more tiresome.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Then treat those questions like some of the posters on here.......ignore them.

I’ve virtually stopped watching all TV News now and will sit down on an evening and read it all online from every available source, both national and international.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think that I could cope with that much bad news.

My wife and I now confine ourselves to the daily briefings and questions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I don't think that I could cope with that much bad news.

My wife and I now confine ourselves to the daily briefings and questions.
		
Click to expand...

Just the opposite mate, lots of positives out there, ie the graph I posted in the other thread last night, but as we know, positives don’t sell newspapers.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I don't think that I could cope with that much bad news.

My wife and I now confine ourselves to the daily briefings and questions.
		
Click to expand...

I don't even bother with the questions. I find the experts excellent to listen to, and to a certain extent the minister have been decent. After that, some it was getting crazy stupid.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Leftie rag still banging on about PPE shortages this morning. Don't they know it's good news week?

View attachment 30296

Click to expand...

Are you sure this is real? I don't see foreigners blamed ... Can't be the mail


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## AmandaJR (Apr 28, 2020)

Oh the irony. We're stood in silence at 11am, heads bowed, paying silent tribute to those who have lost their lives fighting this virus when David's phone bleeps loudly. A minute later he looks at it and it's the BBC app alerting, late, to the minute's silence!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Oh the irony. We're stood in silence at 11am, heads bowed, paying silent tribute to those who have lost their lives fighting this virus when David's phone bleeps loudly. A minute later he looks at it and it's the BBC app alerting, late, to the minute's silence!
		
Click to expand...

Shouldn’t your anti-BBC posts be in random irritations or a new thread?

The OP for this thread was quite clear what it was to be used for.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Shouldn’t your anti-BBC posts be in random irritations or a new thread?

The OP for this thread was quite clear what it was to be used for.

Click to expand...

Good point, well made. Just on a wind up


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



*Why? *I'm not drawing a comparison of the BBC versus others rather than commenting on what the BBC are doing.

If I'm becoming tiresome please feel free to skip over my posts or, better still, put me on ignore.
		
Click to expand...

_You _are not becoming tiresome - endless criticism of the BBC is.  I just don't consider the criticism merited - that's all.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Who said all these “experts” are, in your words “more than a dozen scientific people, at the top of their profession” are they actually that or would these so called anti-government posters, as you called them, be right in asking you if you are *so* pro-government you believe everything the government tells you?
		
Click to expand...

I am not pro Government at all, and likely to be as big a critic as you or anyone in normal times. I have voted in my time for all the parties- I am not a One Party man.
But in times of National crisis such as this, or as in the last war, I believe a time comes when the government puts Party politics aside for the sake of the survival or well being of the Nation.
This is one of those times.
I am from working class stock, grandson of a miner. I know that Churchill was an entitled, privileged politician who swapped parties for his career's benefit, and had I been alive then I would have been no admirer of him.
But when the war came, that situation overrode the party politics and he, as the Prime minister, led a government whose sole aim was to win the war and survive. He had to make some awful but necessary decisions, and did so.
And now, I see an almost parallel situation. Those representatives at the Daily briefings are not seen by me as party politicians. I see them as the people who happen to be the government at a time when this awful disease is attacking us.
It falls to them to make the difficult decisions to get us through. I do not see any of them making decisions on party lines, and I do not see it right for their motives to be attacked on party lines either.


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## Imurg (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_You _are not becoming tiresome - endless criticism of the BBC is.  I just don't consider the criticism merited - that's all.
		
Click to expand...

So if I considered your constant criticism of certain government officials performance during the daily briefing to be merited would you stop ....?


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am not pro Government at all, and likely to be as big a critic as you or anyone in normal times. I have voted in my time for all the parties- I am not a One Party man.
But in times of National crisis such as this, or as in the last war, I believe a time comes when the government puts Party politics aside for the sake of the survival or well being of the Nation.
This is one of those times.
I am from working class stock, grandson of a miner. I know that Churchill was an entitled, privileged politician who swapped parties for his career's benefit, and had I been alive then I would have been no admirer of him.
But when the war came, that situation overrode the party politics and he, as the Prime minister, led a government whose sole aim was to win the war and survive. He had to make some awful but necessary decisions, and did so.
And now, I see an almost parallel situation. Those representatives at the Daily briefings are not seen by me as party politicians. I see them as the people who happen to be the government at a time when this awful disease is attacking us.
It falls to them to make the difficult decisions to get us through. I do not see any of them making decisions on party lines, and I do not see it right for their motives to be attacked on party lines either.
		
Click to expand...

Point very well made. And perhaps something we all should consider before we jump in on occasion. There may well be pragmatic decisions made which, with the benefit of unlimited resources, wouldn't normally be made.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			So if I considered your constant criticism of certain government officials performance during the daily briefing to be merited would you stop ....?
		
Click to expand...

Oh gawd, he’s gone all Foxy on us 😂👍


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## SaintHacker (Apr 28, 2020)

An interesting view that I've just read on a popular social media site, not necessarily my view as none of us will ever know the full ins and outs, but a good read nevertheless 

GOVERNMENT FAILURE TO ORDER EQUIPMENT FOR THE COVID PANDEMIC
- A REALITY CHECK..

Let's get this in perspective for the crayon eaters who are set on pulling down the government.
Firstly, THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT ORDER EQUIPMENT for the NHS, they supply the money. The MANAGERS of the NHS itself are the procurement sources. Also it’s not the government that deals with the logistics for the NHS, it's, yes you've guessed it, it’s the NHS itself.
Not those on the front line, I think we all have the utmost respect for the Doctors, Nurses and care staff putting their lives on the line on a daily basis, doing their jobs under extreme pressure. It's more the overfed  NHS executives and management

Two years ago there was a major exercise to ascertain if the country was prepared for a possible pandemic, the government did NOT run that exercise, the NHS did, during which they used their fantastic line "we can flex", so they were supposedly in a good place, add to that now Brexit with all the stockpiles that we had, they sat there and told the government “we are OK.”
Did these MANAGERS then pre-empt the 4 weeks pipeline ordering (that's how long it takes a container ship to come from...CHINA!)?.... So how did we end up in this lack of equipment situation? Well, they stopped ordering from local sources .... probably a big mistake, all their eggs in one basket, who did that? Not the government, but the NHS procurement office!
We have care homes screaming out for PPE but shouting at the government... Oh wait a minute....the majority of the care homes are PRIVATE business's, 84% to be exact. It is not the responsibility of the government to order PPE for private care homes, the remaining care homes are COUNCIL led, therefore whichever political banner they are under, it is down to them. 
There are people hiding behind and blaming the government, when in reality it is those MANAGERS who have ownership and who have messed up.
Not to worry though...our wonderfully nonpartisan journalists and crayon munching joe public who believe the tripe that they publish continue to bash the government.
The real genuinely caring public knows that our media are crap in almost every quarter and the muppets that chuck the stones from the sidelines, you know the ones that are armchair virologist/strategy professionals who could do oh so much better...NOT.
The government has probably made some mistakes over recent weeks, but not as many as the media would have you believe. Instead of trying to pull this country together the media seems to seek to divide...we really don't need this at this crucial time, so be careful in believing what you’re hearing from our biased mainstream media and the gutter press and the armchair specialists. We need to get through this and your incessant squeaking and whinging is nothing short of oxygen thievery. 
Let's get through this and beat this, together, as it is not over yet, not by a long chalk.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am not pro Government at all, and likely to be as big a critic as you or anyone in normal times. I have voted in my time for all the parties- I am not a One Party man.
But in times of National crisis such as this, or as in the last war, I believe a time comes when the government puts Party politics aside for the sake of the survival or well being of the Nation.
This is one of those times.
I am from working class stock, grandson of a miner. I know that Churchill was an entitled, privileged politician who swapped parties for his career's benefit, and had I been alive then I would have been no admirer of him.
But when the war came, that situation overrode the party politics and he, as the Prime minister, led a government whose sole aim was to win the war and survive. He had to make some awful but necessary decisions, and did so.
And now, I see an almost parallel situation. Those representatives at the Daily briefings are not seen by me as party politicians. I see them as the people who happen to be the government at a time when this awful disease is attacking us.
It falls to them to make the difficult decisions to get us through. I do not see any of them making decisions on party lines, and I do not see it right for their motives to be attacked on party lines either.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the history lesson.

You and similar posters are the ones making the criticism political! As soon as anyone questions the government you and others come back with it being from a political stand point, as I’ve said, sometimes a question is simply that, a question.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am not pro Government at all, and likely to be as big a critic as you or anyone in normal times. I have voted in my time for all the parties- I am not a One Party man.
But in times of National crisis such as this, or as in the last war, I believe a time comes when the government puts Party politics aside for the sake of the survival or well being of the Nation.
This is one of those times.
I am from working class stock, grandson of a miner. I know that Churchill was an entitled, privileged politician who swapped parties for his career's benefit, and had I been alive then I would have been no admirer of him.
But when the war came, that situation overrode the party politics and he, as the Prime minister, led a government whose sole aim was to win the war and survive. He had to make some awful but necessary decisions, and did so.
And now, I see an almost parallel situation. Those representatives at the Daily briefings are not seen by me as party politicians. I see them as the people who happen to be the government at a time when this awful disease is attacking us.
It falls to them to make the difficult decisions to get us through. I do not see any of them making decisions on party lines, and I do not see it right for their motives to be attacked on party lines either.
		
Click to expand...

My worry is that the government relax the lock down too soon, leading to a massive 2nd wave. Johnson acknowledged the risk of that yesterday, but it has been reported the Tories are coming under a lot of pressure from donors  to open things up. 

If they give in to that pressure and open up too fast and too wide, that would be a purely political decision rather than being in the national interest. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			An interesting view that I've just read on a popular social media site, not necessarily my view as none of us will ever know the full ins and outs, but a good read nevertheless

GOVERNMENT FAILURE TO ORDER EQUIPMENT FOR THE COVID PANDEMIC
- A REALITY CHECK..

Let's get this in perspective for the crayon eaters who are set on pulling down the government.
Firstly, THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT ORDER EQUIPMENT for the NHS, they supply the money. The MANAGERS of the NHS itself are the procurement sources. Also it’s not the government that deals with the logistics for the NHS, it's, yes you've guessed it, it’s the NHS itself.
Not those on the front line, I think we all have the utmost respect for the Doctors, Nurses and care staff putting their lives on the line on a daily basis, doing their jobs under extreme pressure. It's more the overfed  NHS executives and management

Two years ago there was a major exercise to ascertain if the country was prepared for a possible pandemic, the government did NOT run that exercise, the NHS did, during which they used their fantastic line "we can flex", so they were supposedly in a good place, add to that now Brexit with all the stockpiles that we had, they sat there and told the government “we are OK.”
Did these MANAGERS then pre-empt the 4 weeks pipeline ordering (that's how long it takes a container ship to come from...CHINA!)?.... So how did we end up in this lack of equipment situation? Well, they stopped ordering from local sources .... probably a big mistake, all their eggs in one basket, who did that? Not the government, but the NHS procurement office!
We have care homes screaming out for PPE but shouting at the government... Oh wait a minute....the majority of the care homes are PRIVATE business's, 84% to be exact. It is not the responsibility of the government to order PPE for private care homes, the remaining care homes are COUNCIL led, therefore whichever political banner they are under, it is down to them.
There are people hiding behind and blaming the government, when in reality it is those MANAGERS who have ownership and who have messed up.
Not to worry though...our wonderfully nonpartisan journalists and crayon munching joe public who believe the tripe that they publish continue to bash the government.
The real genuinely caring public knows that our media are crap in almost every quarter and the muppets that chuck the stones from the sidelines, you know the ones that are armchair virologist/strategy professionals who could do oh so much better...NOT.
The government has probably made some mistakes over recent weeks, but not as many as the media would have you believe. Instead of trying to pull this country together the media seems to seek to divide...we really don't need this at this crucial time, so be careful in believing what you’re hearing from our biased mainstream media and the gutter press and the armchair specialists. We need to get through this and your incessant squeaking and whinging is nothing short of oxygen thievery.
Let's get through this and beat this, together, as it is not over yet, not by a long chalk.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe for balance as the above was first posted on a “right wing” site (Guido Fawkes) we should read this from Private Eye Magazine.

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/hp-sauce


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## 2blue (Apr 28, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			An interesting view that I've just read on a popular social media site, not necessarily my view as none of us will ever know the full ins and outs, but a good read nevertheless

GOVERNMENT FAILURE TO ORDER EQUIPMENT FOR THE COVID PANDEMIC
- A REALITY CHECK..

Let's get this in perspective for the crayon eaters who are set on pulling down the government.
Firstly, THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT ORDER EQUIPMENT for the NHS, they supply the money. The MANAGERS of the NHS itself are the procurement sources. Also it’s not the government that deals with the logistics for the NHS, it's, yes you've guessed it, it’s the NHS itself.
Not those on the front line, I think we all have the utmost respect for the Doctors, Nurses and care staff putting their lives on the line on a daily basis, doing their jobs under extreme pressure. It's more the overfed  NHS executives and management

Two years ago there was a major exercise to ascertain if the country was prepared for a possible pandemic, the government did NOT run that exercise, the NHS did, during which they used their fantastic line "we can flex", so they were supposedly in a good place, add to that now Brexit with all the stockpiles that we had, they sat there and told the government “we are OK.”
Did these MANAGERS then pre-empt the 4 weeks pipeline ordering (that's how long it takes a container ship to come from...CHINA!)?.... So how did we end up in this lack of equipment situation? Well, they stopped ordering from local sources .... probably a big mistake, all their eggs in one basket, who did that? Not the government, but the NHS procurement office!
We have care homes screaming out for PPE but shouting at the government... Oh wait a minute....the majority of the care homes are PRIVATE business's, 84% to be exact. It is not the responsibility of the government to order PPE for private care homes, the remaining care homes are COUNCIL led, therefore whichever political banner they are under, it is down to them.
There are people hiding behind and blaming the government, when in reality it is those MANAGERS who have ownership and who have messed up.
Not to worry though...our wonderfully nonpartisan journalists and crayon munching joe public who believe the tripe that they publish continue to bash the government.
The real genuinely caring public knows that our media are crap in almost every quarter and the muppets that chuck the stones from the sidelines, you know the ones that are armchair virologist/strategy professionals who could do oh so much better...NOT.
The government has probably made some mistakes over recent weeks, but not as many as the media would have you believe. Instead of trying to pull this country together the media seems to seek to divide...we really don't need this at this crucial time, so be careful in believing what you’re hearing from our biased mainstream media and the gutter press and the armchair specialists. We need to get through this and your incessant squeaking and whinging is nothing short of oxygen thievery.
Let's get through this and beat this, together, as it is not over yet, not by a long chalk.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah we've already heard this one from the Tory right-wing extremists...... excuses... excuses....  excuses



pauldj42 said:



			Maybe for balance as the above was first posted on a “right wing” site (Guido Fawkes) we should read this from Private Eye Magazine.

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/hp-sauce

Click to expand...

Thanks Paul


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

2blue said:



			Yeah we've already heard this one from the Tory right-wing extremists...... excuses... excuses....  excuses


Thanks Paul 

Click to expand...

Tbh mate, I don’t know if either post is 100% correct or 50% or zero.

The issue I have is when these things are posted with no source reference or understanding of where its come from.

People will instantly dismiss the guardian or the mail depending on political bias but accept and in some cases even like a post that is completely untrustworthy without a 2nd glance.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe for balance as the above was first posted on a “right wing” site (Guido Fawkes) we should read this from Private Eye Magazine.

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/hp-sauce

Click to expand...




2blue said:



			Yeah we've already heard this one from the Tory right-wing extremists...... excuses... excuses....  excuses


Thanks Paul 

Click to expand...

Just for a bit of  history and accuracy, SCCL was set up to take back in-house NHS Supply Chain. NHS Supply Chain was a DHL owned subsidiary set up during Tony Blair's Labour Govt, i.e. Labour privatised yet another part of the NHS - they were good at it back then. NHS Supply Chain(DHL) took a premium from each Trust for every deal they sourced and 2 premiums from every supplier, one being a percentage of the deal and a one-off admin fee to be on the preferred supplier list - funnily enough this one-off fee was required every year, irrespective of whether or not the company sold anything to the NHS that year.

SCCL is not govt owned, it is state owned, and is back to being a part(dept) of the NHS. Who'd have thought the Tories would be in to Nationalisation!

To a large extent it is staffed by NHS employees who were TUP'd across to DHL, when good old Tony and Labour sold them off, and TUP'd back to the NHS in the SCCL dept.

Good old Tony sold off kidney dialysis units to a Canadian Company called Northern Renal, and a good number of orthopaedic surgery units to a South African Company, whose name deserts me at present. One of those surgical units was actually on the Trafford General Hospital site, the site of the very first NHS hospital - talk about slap in the face/betrayal!

In the last year of DHL's management of procurement the NHS spent £18bn, of which DHL charged the Trusts 4% = £720m, and there's now a £500m cross-charge for services rendered. A saving of £220m, and people think that's a bad thing? Really? Get a flipping grip!

As for the shortage of PPE; its up to the NHS to order it. Its not a govt function. If there's a shortage, ask the NHS why it wasn't ordered.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just for a bit of  history and accuracy, SCCL was set up to take back in-house NHS Supply Chain. NHS Supply Chain was a DHL owned subsidiary set up during Tony Blair's Labour Govt, i.e. Labour privatised yet another part of the NHS - they were good at it back then. NHS Supply Chain(DHL) took a premium from each Trust for every deal they sourced and 2 premiums from every supplier, one being a percentage of the deal and a one-off admin fee to be on the preferred supplier list - funnily enough this one-off fee was required every year, irrespective of whether or not the company sold anything to the NHS that year.

SCCL is not govt owned, it is state owned, and is back to being a part(dept) of the NHS. Who'd have thought the Tories would be in to Nationalisation!

To a large extent it is staffed by NHS employees who were TUP'd across to DHL, when good old Tony and Labour sold them off, and TUP'd back to the NHS in the SCCL dept.

Good old Tony sold off kidney dialysis units to a Canadian Company called Northern Renal, and a good number of orthopaedic surgery units to a South African Company, whose name deserts me at present. One of those surgical units was actually on the Trafford General Hospital site, the site of the very first NHS hospital - talk about slap in the face/betrayal!

In the last year of DHL's management of procurement the NHS spent £18bn, of which DHL charged the Trusts 4% = £720m, and there's now a £500m cross-charge for services rendered. A saving of £220m, and people think that's a bad thing? Really? Get a flipping grip!

As for the shortage of PPE; its up to the NHS to order it. Its not a govt function. If there's a shortage, ask the NHS why it wasn't ordered.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers Bri, as I put above I have no idea of the accuracy of either posts.

As to the ordering or problems with PPE and NHS requirements I have no issue with the Government and stock levels prior to this pandemic, were I do hold the Government to account is when the situation has needed resolving and when and where they choose to step in.

There have been some amazing financial initiatives all under the Government’s gift, they have helped out with Logistics by mobilizing the Armed Forces were required, I also believe they could possibly have stepped in and clarified the PPE situation and again stopped the media in its tracks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			So if I considered your constant criticism of certain government officials performance during the daily briefing to be merited would you stop ....?
		
Click to expand...

What have I got to do with the BBC and continual criticism of the BBC that I simply consider unmerited.  If I want to hear something on any news bulletin that I disagree with so that I can complain about the broadcaster then I am sure I can.  But that is not how I listen to the news.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What have I got to do with the BBC and continual criticism of the BBC that I simply consider unmerited.  *If I want to hear something on any news bulletin that I disagree with so that I can complain about the broadcaster then I am sure I can.  But that is not how I listen to the news.*

Click to expand...

Excuse me but it's not how I listen to the news either. I attempt to make the best job at finding out the news from a trusted, non-biased, impartial public broadcaster. If they don't, imo, step up to the mark  then I will, and will continue to, call them out on it. For me it's a big part of why I feel I pay my license fee.

Just because my views are likely to be polar opposite to yours does not make them wrong. Irritated as you may be by the tedious nature of them, they are mine and I'll continue to make them. I don't tell you you're wrong, or you're being tedious with your constant mentioning of something...I'd be grateful if you could do me the same courtesy.

Now you've really peed me off.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers Bri, as I put above I have no idea of the accuracy of either posts.

As to the ordering or problems with PPE and NHS requirements I have no issue with the Government and stock levels prior to this pandemic, were I do hold the Government to account is when the situation has needed resolving and when and where they choose to step in.

There have been some amazing financial initiatives all under the Government’s gift, they have helped out with Logistics by mobilizing the Armed Forces were required, I also believe they could possibly have stepped in and clarified the PPE situation and again stopped the media in its tracks.
		
Click to expand...

The govt is responsible for the mgt structure of the NHS and, ultimately, Hancock is the boss. It could be argued that the structure is ok for the day-2-day running of the NHS. However, they know from the exercise carried out in 2016 the NHS didn't do well in the pandemic resilience exercise. There will be some mud to fling around, and as long as its justified, fine. But as Sajid Javid said in the Guardian article, the media need to behave responsibly too.


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## Foxholer (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			...
It’s ok blaming the media on this, but the Government do have the ability to stop these stories dead in their tracks or a cynic could say while the media are distracted by a non-story they are missing the real stories.
		
Click to expand...

A fairly common practice where the relationship between governments and 'the Press' is combative!
And that applies to both 'left' and 'right' wing governments!
Part of 'the Press's' quite legitimate role - at least in a Democracy - is to challenge and probe government actions, in order to highlight/prevent/correct abuse, inefficiency and plain blunders! Generally. it works pretty well in UK, albeit rather slowly.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 28, 2020)

I've not read through this thread as I'm a bit late to the party but I've seen and heard lots of criticism of the government particularly around the lack of PPE.

I found this link below, the Govt isn't responsible for the procurement, they are responsible for providing the money. The NHS is responsible for the procurement of services and equipment.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/nhs-procurement


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## drdel (Apr 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just for a bit of  history and accuracy, SCCL was set up to take back in-house NHS Supply Chain. NHS Supply Chain was a DHL owned subsidiary set up during Tony Blair's Labour Govt, i.e. Labour privatised yet another part of the NHS - they were good at it back then. NHS Supply Chain(DHL) took a premium from each Trust for every deal they sourced and 2 premiums from every supplier, one being a percentage of the deal and a one-off admin fee to be on the preferred supplier list - funnily enough this one-off fee was required every year, irrespective of whether or not the company sold anything to the NHS that year.

SCCL is not govt owned, it is state owned, and is back to being a part(dept) of the NHS. Who'd have thought the Tories would be in to Nationalisation!

To a large extent it is staffed by NHS employees who were TUP'd across to DHL, when good old Tony and Labour sold them off, and TUP'd back to the NHS in the SCCL dept.

Good old Tony sold off kidney dialysis units to a Canadian Company called Northern Renal, and a good number of orthopaedic surgery units to a South African Company, whose name deserts me at present. One of those surgical units was actually on the Trafford General Hospital site, the site of the very first NHS hospital - talk about slap in the face/betrayal!

In the last year of DHL's management of procurement the NHS spent £18bn, of which DHL charged the Trusts 4% = £720m, and there's now a £500m cross-charge for services rendered. A saving of £220m, and people think that's a bad thing? Really? Get a flipping grip!

As for the shortage of PPE; its up to the NHS to order it. Its not a govt function. If there's a shortage, ask the NHS why it wasn't ordered.
		
Click to expand...


Not too many moons ago I used to do corporate lectures on supply chain vulnerability and when just-in-time logistics was ideal and when it brought risks. Not surprisingly most CEO's agreed and were concerned about their continuity planning but thought it was an expense someone else in the supply chain should make. The interesting bit is NHS (pre-DHL) logistics management were involved: change of staff and in come the new management and make the same mistakes.  I'd dearly love to ring them up and say "Told you so!" but they've retired.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 28, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			An interesting view that I've just read on a popular social media site, not necessarily my view as none of us will ever know the full ins and outs, but a good read nevertheless

GOVERNMENT FAILURE TO ORDER EQUIPMENT FOR THE COVID PANDEMIC
- A REALITY CHECK..

Let's get this in perspective for the crayon eaters who are set on pulling down the government.
Firstly, THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT ORDER EQUIPMENT for the NHS, they supply the money. The MANAGERS of the NHS itself are the procurement sources. Also it’s not the government that deals with the logistics for the NHS, it's, yes you've guessed it, it’s the NHS itself.
Not those on the front line, I think we all have the utmost respect for the Doctors, Nurses and care staff putting their lives on the line on a daily basis, doing their jobs under extreme pressure. It's more the overfed  NHS executives and management

Two years ago there was a major exercise to ascertain if the country was prepared for a possible pandemic, the government did NOT run that exercise, the NHS did, during which they used their fantastic line "we can flex", so they were supposedly in a good place, add to that now Brexit with all the stockpiles that we had, they sat there and told the government “we are OK.”
Did these MANAGERS then pre-empt the 4 weeks pipeline ordering (that's how long it takes a container ship to come from...CHINA!)?.... So how did we end up in this lack of equipment situation? Well, they stopped ordering from local sources .... probably a big mistake, all their eggs in one basket, who did that? Not the government, but the NHS procurement office!
We have care homes screaming out for PPE but shouting at the government... Oh wait a minute....the majority of the care homes are PRIVATE business's, 84% to be exact. It is not the responsibility of the government to order PPE for private care homes, the remaining care homes are COUNCIL led, therefore whichever political banner they are under, it is down to them.
There are people hiding behind and blaming the government, when in reality it is those MANAGERS who have ownership and who have messed up.
Not to worry though...our wonderfully nonpartisan journalists and crayon munching joe public who believe the tripe that they publish continue to bash the government.
The real genuinely caring public knows *that our media are crap in almost every quarter* and the muppets that chuck the stones from the sidelines, you know the ones that are armchair virologist/strategy professionals who could do oh so much better...NOT.
The government has probably made some mistakes over recent weeks, but not as many as the media would have you believe. Instead of trying to pull this country together the media seems to seek to divide...we really don't need this at this crucial time, *so be careful in believing what you’re hearing from our biased mainstream media and the gutter press and the armchair specialists.* We need to get through this and your incessant squeaking and whinging is nothing short of oxygen thievery.
Let's get through this and beat this, together, as it is not over yet, not by a long chalk.
		
Click to expand...

Very Trumpesque if that's peoples thing.


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## Beezerk (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've not read through this thread as I'm a bit late to the party but I've seen and heard lots of criticism of the government particularly around the lack of PPE.

I found this link below, the Govt isn't responsible for the procurement, they are responsible for providing the money. The NHS is responsible for the procurement of services and equipment.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/nhs-procurement

Click to expand...

That got mentioned a week or so ago, maybe in another thread but it seems to have been conveniently forgotten about.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've not read through this thread as I'm a bit late to the party but I've seen and heard lots of criticism of the government particularly around the lack of PPE.

I found this link below, the Govt isn't responsible for the procurement, they are responsible for providing the money. The NHS is responsible for the procurement of services and equipment.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/nhs-procurement

Click to expand...

As the elected body, governments first responsibility is looking after the safety and best interests of the electorate... It cannot sub out that responsibility...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 28, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As the elected body, governments first responsibility is looking after the safety and best interests of the electorate... It cannot sub out that responsibility...
		
Click to expand...

I agree but surely it has done that by providing the necessary funding to the experts who work out what is required? I wouldn't expect an MP to tell a qualified professional what to do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Excuse me but it's not how I listen to the news either. I attempt to make the best job at finding out the news from a trusted, non-biased, impartial public broadcaster. If they don't, imo, step up to the mark  then I will, and will continue to, call them out on it. For me it's a big part of why I feel I pay my license fee.

Just because my views are likely to be polar opposite to yours does not make them wrong. Irritated as you may be by the tedious nature of them, they are mine and I'll continue to make them. I don't tell you you're wrong, or you're being tedious with your constant mentioning of something...I'd be grateful if you could do me the same courtesy.

Now you've really peed me off.
		
Click to expand...

I really didn't want to pee you off...

I'm simply suggesting that in my experience *all *broadcast news outlets are reporting things in pretty much the same way - with some being a bit more sensational and critical than others (and I don't class the BBC as being one that is particularly sensational and critical).  Sometimes the language can be a bit shoddy or ambiguous - but as far as I can make out that's not that often.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I agree but surely it has done that by providing the necessary funding to the experts who work out what is required? I wouldn't expect an MP to tell a qualified professional what to do.
		
Click to expand...

And if a test of the NHS and government response to, and ability to cope with, a pandemic shows that we fail badly?  Is it not then government's responsibility to provide the necessary funding to the NHS and trusts to get their act in gear, and then to monitor on a continuous basis that the NHS and trusts are doing just that and that they are then maintaining their readiness and ability to cope?  Did the government do that following the 2016 test?  Will all be considered in the final reckoning.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

IMO it all went to pot with the "need" to have 24 hour news programs. There isn't that much news. We have now got people not reporting news but having to make the news. Reporters have got idle and will "report" on anything without any fact checking or validation. They continue to try and "make" the story.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			IMO it all went to pot with the "need" to have 24 hour news programs. There isn't that much news. We have now got people not reporting news but having to make the news. Reporters have got idle and will "report" on anything without any fact checking or validation. They continue to try and "make" the story.
		
Click to expand...

My big gripe is the editorial they spin on it. Give me the news, not an opinion of it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is it not then government's responsibility to provide the necessary funding to the NHS
		
Click to expand...

I've not heard or read any reports that the Govt has failed to provide the necessary funding, however that doesn't mean they have or have not.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And if a test of the NHS and government response to, and ability to cope with, a pandemic shows that we fail badly?  Is it not then government's responsibility to provide the necessary funding to the NHS and trusts to get their act in gear, and then to monitor on a continuous basis that the NHS and trusts are doing just that and that they are then maintaining their readiness and ability to cope?  Did the government do that following the 2016 test?  Will all be considered in the final reckoning.
		
Click to expand...

Funding will be an issue in any of the public sector departments - it's the way of the world and simple economics. It's up to those within the departments that get paid very good salaries to priorities where the money is spent.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

Massive increase in who can be tested "if they are showing symptoms " of the virus.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I agree but surely it has done that by providing the necessary funding to the experts who work out what is required? I wouldn't expect an MP to tell a qualified professional what to do.
		
Click to expand...

If by selecting the correct 'experts', to provide the necessary funding to, government expects the 'reward' of re-election on the back of good delivery of service... If its chosen 'experts' come up short, it should expect close scrutiny...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've not read through this thread as I'm a bit late to the party but I've seen and heard lots of criticism of the government particularly around the lack of PPE.

I found this link below, the Govt isn't responsible for the procurement, they are responsible for providing the money. The NHS is responsible for the procurement of services and equipment.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/nhs-procurement

Click to expand...

Hang on a minute, nobody is disputing who has responsibility for NHS procurement during normal times, these are not normal times and we have heard, read, listened to the horror stories (true or not) over PPE, we’ve been told about trusts who are better than other trusts at sorting their act out or having surplus while other trusts were running out.

So, in these extraordinary times, who are the one body can that can/could step up, find out the true picture and if need be, sort it out and pull it all together? The Government, that’s who, they have put stepped up on 99% of what is required, got a grip and told people what is to be done.

Why has the PPE question/saga dragged on? Only the Government can give that answer imo, continually posting links on the NHS Supply Chain and how it works in normal times is irrelevant, it’s the here and now that’s needs sorting.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hang on a minute, nobody is disputing who has responsibility for NHS procurement during normal times, these are not normal times and we have heard, read, listened to the horror stories (true or not) over PPE, we’ve been told about trusts who are better than other trusts at sorting their act out or having surplus while other trusts were running out.

So, in these extraordinary times, who are the one body can that can/could step up, find out the true picture and if need be, sort it out and pull it all together? The Government, that’s who, they have put stepped up on 99% of what is required, got a grip and told people what is to be done.

Why has the PPE question/saga dragged on? Only the Government can give that answer imo, continually posting links on the NHS Supply Chain and how it works in normal times is irrelevant, it’s the here and now that’s needs sorting.
		
Click to expand...

Without wanting to sound pedantic, dont the Government instruct Civil Servants to sort these things out? Although instructing people to do something doesnt mean its possible to do it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hang on a minute, nobody is disputing who has responsibility for NHS procurement during normal times, these are not normal times and we have heard, read, listened to the horror stories (true or not) over PPE, we’ve been told about trusts who are better than other trusts at sorting their act out or having surplus while other trusts were running out.

So, in these extraordinary times, who are the one body can that can/could step up, find out the true picture and if need be, sort it out and pull it all together? The Government, that’s who, they have put stepped up on 99% of what is required, got a grip and told people what is to be done.

Why has the PPE question/saga dragged on? Only the Government can give that answer imo, continually posting links on the NHS Supply Chain and how it works in normal times is irrelevant, it’s the here and now that’s needs sorting.
		
Click to expand...

The procedure for procurement doesn't change just because we are in an abnormal situation. The government has played its part by supplying the necessary funding. It is down to the NHS to use the money correctly and purchase the required PPE.


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## Fish (Apr 28, 2020)




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## Pin-seeker (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The procedure for procurement doesn't change just because we are in an abnormal situation. The government has played its part by supplying the necessary funding. It is down to the NHS to use the money correctly and purchase the required PPE.
		
Click to expand...

I’ve been saying this all along.
IF the government have been giving adequate funding(debatable) then I think others should also be shouldering the blame for lack of PPE.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The procedure for procurement doesn't change just because we are in an abnormal situation. The government has played its part by supplying the necessary funding. It is down to the NHS to use the money correctly and purchase the required PPE.
		
Click to expand...

Rubbish mate, these are unprecedented times, it is the responsibility of any Government to look after its citizens and if it’s going wrong (which needs to be determined) they should step in and sort it out.

They don’t have a bottomless pit of money to allow useless Trust’s to continue wasting money, all the Trusts are accountable to the Government and one Trust shouldn’t be stockpiling while another suffers.

Responsibility doesn’t stop at point of money being supplied.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish mate, these are unprecedented times, it is the responsibility of any Government to look after its citizens and if it’s going wrong (which needs to be determined) they should step in and sort it out.

They don’t have a bottomless pit of money to allow useless Trust’s to continue wasting money, all the Trusts are accountable to the Government and one Trust shouldn’t be stockpiling while another suffers.

Responsibility doesn’t stop at point of money being supplied.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think that those running the trusts should have been the medias first point of call when/if this situation is as bad as the media paint it. Many doctors and nurses have stated PPE wasn't an issue with others saying it was. Instead of people concentrating on a possible shortfall shouldn't they look at the anomalies between trusts and care organizations.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Do you think that those running the trusts should have been the medias first point of call when/if this situation is as bad as the media paint it. Many doctors and nurses have stated PPE wasn't an issue with others saying it was. Instead of people concentrating on a possible shortfall shouldn't they look at the anomalies between trusts and care organizations.
		
Click to expand...

Yes yes yes, this has been my point all along, shut the media up by getting a true and complete picture of the PPE situation in the whole of the NHS.

Only the Government has the power to do this, appoint a Civil Servant to oversee it or an MP from any Party, do something to get an overall picture.
Then hopefully as the pressure eases on Trusts the Government or their representative can instruct said Trusts to redistribute some PPE to Care Homes etc.


Currently it seems people are happy for the Government to throw money at it and let the Trusts do their own thing.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes yes yes, this has been my point all along, shut the media up by getting a true and complete picture of the PPE situation in the whole of the NHS.

Only the Government has the power to do this, appoint a Civil Servant to oversee it or an MP from any Party, do something to get an overall picture.
Then hopefully as the pressure eases on Trusts the Government or their representative can instruct said Trusts to redistribute some PPE to Care Homes etc.


Currently it seems people are happy for the Government to throw money at it and let the Trusts do their own thing.
		
Click to expand...

There in lies the problem. The current media are only interested in negative and pointing the finger of blame stories. There have been several stories where military sources have highlighted the shocking state the NHS procurement systems are but you don't see any follow up by the main media sources.

I'm not happy with throwing the money at it policy. It's time the trusts were disbanded and the country split into 4-5 regions. Save a fortune in non clinical posts which in to many cases are full of clinicians who were shifted sideways.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

Individual Trusts don't look at a global strategic level. The UK govt knew it was coming. What instruction did Matt Hancock put his signature to, and send out to Procurement? Whatever the detail is around that question it needs looking at. What instruction was sent to NHS Procurement? Matt Hancock will have had Dept of Health briefings, and he and his team should have been making strategic decisions ahead of D-day that would at least mitigate what might happen.

If the instruction went out, and was sent in good time, why is it such an issue? Let's not point fingers now but someone will be putting together a list of questions - Mr K Starmer(?)


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

I posted on here some time ago in responce to some comments being made about PPE shortages.  I made the point there is a supply and demand issue as we are experiencing an unprecedented global demand for PPE.  Looking for someone to blame for shortages seems rather churlish and assumes an expectation for perfect hindsight.  Should the procurement departments have made provisions for a possible pandemic? would it be a reasonable expectation for the money to have been available just in case there would be a world pandemic around the corner? what would be the media response be to large stores of PPE that no doubt will have expiry dates?

It seems to me both the Trusts and Government are working hard to obtain suitable quantities of PPE from a limited number of overseas suppliers at the same time as so many other countries, demand is outstripping supply, I guess there were problems getting suitable quantities of medical supplies during the world wars.

There will indeed be an opportunity to examine and learn from our experience and hopefully the logistics can be improved should we be faced with this type of challenge again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The procedure for procurement doesn't change just because we are in an abnormal situation. The government has played its part by supplying the necessary funding. It is down to the NHS to use the money correctly and purchase the required PPE.
		
Click to expand...

But if a government Pandemic Test shows massive fail, and one of the major areas of fail was PPE, do you not think that it might be incumbent on the government - with their ultimate duty of care to the people of the country being to keep us safe - to absolutely make sure that the NHS is getting the PPE in place - using funding it may provide to the NHS for such purpose to absolutely make sure that the gap in PPE is closed - or at least boosted to a level that reduces very significantly the probability of major failure.  That is what you'd expect a government to do - not just rely on the NHS to do it when it is also subject to huge Brexit-preparation pressures.  

All will be examined in the reckoning that will come.  Not a lot of benefit in battering the government at the moment for past failures that can't be fixed - but worthwhile continuing to check that past failures aren't repeated.


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## drdel (Apr 28, 2020)

My understanding is that the PPE in hospitals is, in general, a managed/improving situation but the worldwide production will continue to be behind demand.

However the care sector's PP situation is another ball game. I think, if we are frank, the care sector is often private sector businesses who try to cut costs and maximise profits. Most of the ones I've come across are pretty dire places with low paid staff and their management is not that professional. Essentially the more caring they are the higher their costs so expecting such businesses to invest in emergency planning is dreamland. It is a massive challenge to get these businesses to honestly admit failings is just one issue and the Government must be sure that any help is actually used where it is needed.

I do not for one minute suggest most of the staff at the front line in care homes are not compassionate but these business are run on a minimum cost basis ( even the LA operated homes) ; they exist  for profit and RoI.

We can expect that the deaths attributed to the virus in the Care Home sector will rise significantly. How the Government will diplomatically addresses will be interesting - the issue is that there are a lot of rubbish businesses not saying as it is will be a real challenge and its a fact the media will overlook.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But if a government Pandemic Test shows massive fail, and one of the major areas of fail was PPE, do you not think that it might be incumbent on the government - with their ultimate duty of care to the people of the country being to keep us safe - to absolutely make sure that the NHS is getting the PPE in place - using funding it may provide to the NHS for such purpose to absolutely make sure that the gap in PPE is closed - or at least boosted to a level that reduces very significantly the probability of major failure.  That is what you'd expect a government to do - not just rely on the NHS to do it when it is also subject to huge Brexit-preparation pressures. 

All will be examined in the reckoning that will come.  Not a lot of benefit in battering the government at the moment for past failures that can't be fixed - but worthwhile continuing to check that past failures aren't repeated.
		
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"One of the major area of fails was PPE" - unless you were in a hospital were there was no PPE issues.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			"One of the major area of fails was PPE" - unless you were in a hospital were there was no PPE issues.
		
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Indeed. So some trusts get it right but others don't. Is that the fault of the government?


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## drdel (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			"One of the major area of fails was PPE" - unless you were in a hospital were there was no PPE issues.
		
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Which, from what my friends in HT management tell me I think, are that the vast majority of Trusts nationwide have not had issues but, unfortunately that's not frightening enough news.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Indeed. So some trusts get it right but others don't. Is that the fault of the government?
		
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Living in a country where everything is someone else's fault - yes.


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 28, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255122582711472128
Not sure how accurate this is,but this kind of thing definitely goes on...imo.

££££


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255122582711472128
Not sure how accurate this is,but this kind of thing definitely goes on...imo.

££££
		
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Those are the type of costs PFI charge hospitals for simple maintainence.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255122582711472128
Not sure how accurate this is,but this kind of thing definitely goes on...imo.

££££
		
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And this is why Twitter is so damaging. These are NHS hospitals built under PFI contracts. What you see is only the tip of the cash cow that is milking the NHS dry. Previous govts had choice, stay in hospital buildings that weren't fit for purpose or build new hospitals. The govt of the day couldn't afford to fund the building so got PFI consortia to build them and lease them back to the NHS. 

All bar the clinical depts. are usually owned by the landlord, e.g. Balfour Beatty. If a light bulb needs changing its charged at commercial rates, and then some.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Indeed. So some trusts get it right but others don't. Is that the fault of the government?
		
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Yes if they do nothing about it in these unprecedented times, the Government should thank and encourage the Trusts that get it right and use them as best practise for those who get it wrong, getting it wrong is costing lives and the Government has the power and authority to sort the useless trusts out.

Unless you’re suggesting the only other option is to allow those Trusts who are getting it wrong to continue to get it wrong while throwing money at them?


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## Stuart_C (Apr 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And this is why Twitter is so damaging. These are NHS hospitals built under PFI contracts. What you see is only the tip of the cash cow that is milking the NHS dry. Previous govts had choice, stay in hospital buildings that weren't fit for purpose or build new hospitals. The govt of the day couldn't afford to fund the building so got PFI consortia to build them and lease them back to the NHS.

All bar the clinical depts. are usually owned by the landlord, e.g. Balfour Beatty. If a light bulb needs changing its charged at commercial rates, and then some.
		
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Schools are the same.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish mate, these are unprecedented times, it is the responsibility of any Government to look after its citizens and if it’s going wrong (which needs to be determined) they should step in and sort it out.

They don’t have a bottomless pit of money to allow useless Trust’s to continue wasting money, all the Trusts are accountable to the Government and one Trust shouldn’t be stockpiling while another suffers.

Responsibility doesn’t stop at point of money being supplied.
		
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I agree with what you say about sorting it out in these crisis times. But is there not a question of transition time here?
In normal times , it was as described. Government give the money and highly paid Trusts officials do the actual acquiring etc.
Then the pandemic strikes. Unprecedented requirements by everybody, and when I say everybody, I include all health services of all affected Nations.
So it sooner or later becomes apparent that some Trusts have enough PPE  and some haven't and so the Government, as you say, should step in.
But they can't wave a wand and it all be right overnight. With all the logistics problems they have in other disciplines, it is inevitable that some will be lacking. I really believe that in the background they are trying to correct the shortcomings. I cannot believe there is a shrug of the shoulders saying "tough" , about the situation.
It needs someone with a hatred of red tape, and a healthy disrespect of "how it is usually done" and an "action this day" mentality.
I said in an earlier post that it shouldn't be too hard to use those attributes where some Trusts have too much and others not enough , to identify those Trusts and so, rob Peter to give to Paul -in hours , let alone days.
And , yes, that is the responsibility of government NOW. It is in their interests to tell us exactly how they are addressing this. And the Country's, and it should be a priority to do so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree with what you say about sorting it out in these crisis times. But is there not a question of transition time here?
In normal times , it was as described. Government give the money and highly paid Trusts officials do the actual acquiring etc.
Then the pandemic strikes. Unprecedented requirements by everybody, and when I say everybody, I include all health services of all affected Nations.
So it sooner or later becomes apparent that some Trusts have enough PPE  and some haven't and so the Government, as you say, should step in.
But they can't wave a wand and it all be right overnight. With all the logistics problems they have in other disciplines, it is inevitable that some will be lacking. I really believe that in the background they are trying to correct the shortcomings. I cannot believe there is a shrug of the shoulders saying "tough" , about the situation.
It needs someone with a hatred of red tape, and a healthy disrespect of "how it is usually done" and an "action this day" mentality.
I said in an earlier post that it shouldn't be too hard to use those attributes where some Trusts have too much and others not enough , to identify those Trusts and so, rob Peter to give to Paul -in hours , let alone days.
And , yes, that is the responsibility of government NOW. It is in their interests to tell us exactly how they are addressing this. And the Country's, and it should be a priority to do so.
		
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I agree, I’m also not expecting anyone to wave a magic wand and sort it overnight, I firmly believe the Government are doing the best they can, but for some reason (which may be beyond their control) the PPE situation seems to be a constant thorn in their side.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Schools are the same.
		
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Public private partnerships were and still are a disaster 

We lost our in house maintaince to two private companies. Metronet and tube lines

Both went bust

Both were bought back in house by tfl

Lots of money wasted 

Lots of people pensions mucked around with (guy my age we started same year his pension is 5 years to my 15 now) 

All well and good having contracts in place but half the time their not met. 

Private sector have no place in public services. Need to be run for the public not for profit to shareholders 

However need better management throughout aswell


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## MegaSteve (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Without wanting to sound pedantic, dont the Government instruct Civil Servants to sort these things out? Although instructing people to do something doesnt mean its possible to do it.
		
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I thought there had been a recent consensus of opinion that we didn't wish to be subject to the influence of unelected unaccountable bureaucracy... Are you now advocating it should be ok for our elected government to discharge its responsibilities to unelected unaccountable bureaucrats?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Indeed. So some trusts get it right but others don't. Is that the fault of the government?
		
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Yes... Because it remains responsible for the agencies it appoints to be getting it right...


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## Ethan (Apr 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Which, from what my friends in HT management tell me I think, are that the vast majority of Trusts nationwide have not had issues but, unfortunately that's not frightening enough news.
		
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The majority of Trusts may not admit to problems, but an awful lot, too many, doctors and nurses are having issues with PPE. Note also that the Govt engineered the downgrading of Covid from being a High Consequence Infectious Disease in late March which allowed a downgrade in PPE requirements. If you can't increase supply to meet the regulations, reduce the regulations to meet the supply, I suppose.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

This is literally his job and if private organisations have had to step in something is seriously wrong!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255256404207812611


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This is literally his job and if private organisations have had to step in something is seriously wrong!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255256404207812611

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Or maybe the DM just wanted to help out in some way. You don't have to spin it.... just an alternative thought. I just see it as someone/organisation wanting to help out in any way.

Or alternatively, we could cynically say that its the DM just chasing good copy and a headline. There's a few ways to spin it depending on whatever you fancy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe the DM just wanted to help out in some way. You don't have to spin it.... just an alternative thought. I just see it as someone/organisation wanting to help out in any way.

Or alternatively, we could cynically say that its the DM just chasing good copy and a headline. There's a few ways to spin it depending on whatever you fancy.
		
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Well done the DM, my comment is aimed at Hancock and him heaping praise on them.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done the DM, my comment is aimed at Hancock and him heaping praise on them.
		
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But why shouldn't he praise them if this is something they have done genuinely to help the nation. Being the DM that's a big IF, but where is the problem with Hancock, Boris or even any other political representative from any party giving praise if it is something that helps the nation. 

Its easy to spin they shouldn't have to its his job but seems as a nation now rather than see something as help we see it as something to slate someone else for.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done the DM, my comment is aimed at Hancock and him heaping praise on them.
		
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But isn't that a damned if he does and damned if he doesn't? As Health Minister he should acknowledge those that help him - at the very least its a common courtesy. Maybe your bias is showing through... maybe I'm missing exactly what you mean. Tbh, I can't see what you're driving at.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Nobody should need to “step up” and buy PPE for the NHS, the Government should be supplying all the PPE the NHS needs.

If any other organisation wants to do “their bit” find other areas to help, ie, help local charities who are supporting foodbanks or help the volunteers who are driving “meals on wheels” services in their own vehicles etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But isn't that a damned if he does and damned if he doesn't? As Health Minister he should acknowledge those that help him - at the very least its a common courtesy. *Maybe your bias is showing through*... maybe I'm missing exactly what you mean. Tbh, I can't see what you're driving at.
		
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For the record I’d be just annoyed with any Health Secretary regardless of Party allegiance.

But it proves again that posters can’t criticise a Government Minister without some questioning the poster’s political slant and reading more in to it than is intended.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody should need to “step up” and buy PPE for the NHS, *the Government should be supplying all the PPE the NHS needs.*

If any other organisation wants to do “their bit” find other areas to help, ie, help local charities who are supporting foodbanks or help the volunteers who are driving “meals on wheels” services in their own vehicles etc.
		
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Re the bold bit above, do you mean the Govt should be supply the money or actually purchasing the PPE themselves?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

I just cant see what's wrong with him thanking them. They may have been able to find a supply of PPE that had been missed by others, should they be told to take it back?


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody should need to “step up” and buy PPE for the NHS, the Government should be supplying all the PPE the NHS needs.

If any other organisation wants to do “their bit” find other areas to help, ie, help local charities who are supporting foodbanks or help the volunteers who are driving “meals on wheels” services in their own vehicles etc.
		
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No your right the NHS should be buying it themselves with the government provided money. That's how the NHS is set up to procure it's own goods through its logistics channel's. It is not government job to provide the actual items, it is their job to provide the money for them and that is what they're doing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Re the bold bit above, do you mean the Govt should be supply the money or actually purchasing the PPE themselves?
		
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Taking responsibility for both, it shouldn’t need outside agencies to do their job and embarrass them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No your right the NHS should be buying it themselves with the government provided money. That's how the NHS is set up to procure it's own goods through its logistics channel's. It is not government job to provide the actual items, it is their job to provide the money for them and that is what they're doing.
		
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I’m not going over old ground, we had this yesterday, the Government responsibility does not stop at the handing over of the money.

Why have the MOD become involved? Is it possible the NHS aren’t coping?


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody should need to “step up” and buy PPE for the NHS, the Government should be supplying all the PPE the NHS needs.

If any other organisation wants to do “their bit” find other areas to help, ie, help local charities who are supporting foodbanks or help the volunteers who are driving “meals on wheels” services in their own vehicles etc.
		
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You could apply your logic to foodbanks etc, there shouldn't be a need to "step up."

There's undoubtedly some truth to be found out in all of this. Yesterday I spoke to a friend, again, that is an ITU sister. I, again(3 times now), asked about PPE. And, again, she said there's no problem with stock. She did say that a few of the staff get a bee in their bonnet about it when they're down to a couple of boxes of gowns but she reminds them that they always run with only a box or 2 in stock, and they have always got their stock on time. Maybe the hospital she works at is well run, or maybe the hype we hear is just hype. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in between.

We've also heard Fish say that he and his fellow couriers have been dropping PPE off at places where the last drop-off of PPE is still sitting there.

We'll all find out one day soon about the truth behind it all. Until then let's hope everything continues to go the right way.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not going over old ground, we had this yesterday, the Government responsibility does not stop at the handing over of the money.
		
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But you are going over it by continuing to post its the government fault and responsibility. 

The government is responsible for providing the money trusts are responsible for their own procurement as they are the ones on the ground with the inventory of what they have and need. Are they then ultimately responsible for investigation of failures by trusts yes they are, but now isn't the time to investigate now is time to fund the trusts and trust our hospitals to do what's right by staff and patients.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I thought there had been a recent consensus of opinion that we didn't wish to be subject to the influence of unelected unaccountable bureaucracy... Are you now advocating it should be ok for our elected government to discharge its responsibilities to unelected unaccountable bureaucrats?
		
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My post suggested the GOVERNMENT instruct Civil Servants to sort things out so how can you turn that around to me saying unelected unaccountable bureaucrats are being given responsibility.  The clue in my post was 'Government instruct'  or do we expect Matt Hancock to go out and do it all on his own.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			For the record I’d be just annoyed with any Health Secretary regardless of Party allegiance.

But it proves again that posters can’t criticise a Government Minister without some questioning the poster’s political slant and reading more in to it than is intended.
		
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No I'm not letting you off with that one. Surely its a natural assumption that someone who is perceived to favour a particular party will be viewed, sometimes wrongly, of having a bias? Maybe in this instance you're not coming from a point of bias but its not unreasonable, even if wrongly, to assume you are.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not going over old ground, we had this yesterday, the Government responsibility does not stop at the handing over of the money.

*Why have the MOD become involved? Is it possible the NHS aren’t coping*?
		
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That bit in bold wasn't there when i initially replied. Its also a somewhat ambiguous comment because we're in a global pandemic likes of which we've not seen in UK in generations. The MOD are involved because in times of national crisis they are part of the contingency that allows the country to continue to function and assist the NHS with more mundane jobs allowing the qualified staff to get on with what's more important. 

You could flip that during a war and ask why reserves are called up is it because the forces can't cope. No it's because in times of peace or in this case non pandemic the staffing numbers don't need to be at the level that is required in national emergency.


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## drdel (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not going over old ground, we had this yesterday, the Government responsibility does not stop at the handing over of the money.

Why have the MOD become involved? Is it possible the NHS aren’t coping?
		
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It's a pandemic, MOD is rightly providing surge capacity which is exactly what the services do I  exceptional situations. If the NHS kept resources of the magnitude now needed it would be vastly under utilized


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			But you are going over it by continuing to post its the government fault and responsibility.

The government is responsible for providing the money trusts are responsible for their own procurement as they are the ones on the ground with the inventory of what they have and need. Are they then ultimately responsible for investigation of failures by trusts yes they are, but now isn't the time to investigate now is time to fund the trusts and trust our hospitals to do what's right by staff and patients.
		
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If some trusts are failing you suggest we continue to let them fail and ask why afterwards!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That bit in bold wasn't there when i initially replied. Its also a somewhat ambiguous comment because we're in a global pandemic likes of which we've not seen in UK in generations. The MOD are involved because in times of national crisis they are part of the contingency that allows the country to continue to function and assist the NHS with more mundane jobs allowing the qualified staff to get on with what's more important.

You could flip that during a war and ask why reserves are called up is it because the forces can't cope. No it's because in times of peace or in this case non pandemic the staffing numbers don't need to be at the level that is required in national emergency.
		
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drdel said:



			It's a pandemic, MOD is rightly providing surge capacity which is exactly what the services do I  exceptional situations. If the NHS kept resources of the magnitude now needed it would be vastly under utilized
		
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So you both hit the nail on the head with the problems we’re facing and previously have fallen back on stating the Government is not responsible for NHS Procurement.

Sorry, but in this crisis they can’t pick and choose which bits they will take responsibility for and which bits they can hand off to someone else.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If some trusts are failing you suggest we continue to let them fail and ask why afterwards!
		
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Did I say that, no I didn't your spinning what's written to suit your agenda Paul. I said now isn't time to investigate but to provide funding by that I mean give them the money to support them whether that is through purely giving money to buy more or use the money to employ someone better suited to the role or procurement is upto to the trust or the local quality care commission. That is not the responsibility of one man (Hancock) to do it all for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You could apply your logic to foodbanks etc, there shouldn't be a need to "step up."

There's undoubtedly some truth to be found out in all of this. Yesterday I spoke to a friend, again, that is an ITU sister. I, again(3 times now), asked about PPE. And, again, she said there's no problem with stock. She did say that a few of the staff get a bee in their bonnet about it when they're down to a couple of boxes of gowns but she reminds them that they always run with only a box or 2 in stock, and they have always got their stock on time. Maybe the hospital she works at is well run, or maybe the hype we hear is just hype. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in between.

We've also heard Fish say that he and his fellow couriers have been dropping PPE off at places where the last drop-off of PPE is still sitting there.

We'll all find out one day soon about the truth behind it all. Until then let's hope everything continues to go the right way.
		
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Needs more than hope Bri, it needs done on facts.

Hancock could of thanked the DM and at the same time questioned why they believed it was needed if it’s all in hand.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So you both hit the nail on the head with the problems we’re facing and previously have fallen back on stating the Government is not responsible for NHS Procurement.

Sorry, but in this crisis they can’t pick and choose which bits they will take responsibility for and which bits they can hand off to someone else.
		
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Again your spinning to suit Paul and its coming across as quite Pedantic. Read what's actually being said and not what and how you want to read it.

Government is not responsible  for procurement, MOD involvement is not purely for procurement but for many other roles but you tunnelling it purely back to suit your agenda.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Did I say that, no I didn't your spinning what's written to suit your agenda Paul. I said now isn't time to investigate but to provide funding by that I mean give them the money to support them whether that is through purely giving money to buy more or use the money to employ someone better suited to the role or procurement is upto to the trust or the local quality care commission. That is not the responsibility of one man (Hancock) to do it all for them.
		
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So when is the time? You’re saying now isn’t the time to investigate and with outside agencies feeling they need to step up and hobbit telling us some hospitals are fine, where is this perceived problem PPE needed and why isn’t it being nipped in the bud?


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## IanM (Apr 29, 2020)

I have worked on one Public Sector Procurement in my life.  I refuse to work on another one.   I can can say no more!


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So you both hit the nail on the head with the problems we’re facing and previously have fallen back on stating the Government is not responsible for NHS Procurement.

Sorry, but in this crisis they can’t pick and choose which bits they will take responsibility for and which bits they can hand off to someone else.
		
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I agree with you on this one. The govt provide the resource, and if the problem is still there, there needs to be a discussion between both the govt and the NHS Procurement about why that resource hasn't satisfied the need. AND its the govt's responsibility to provide more resource if needed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Again your spinning to suit Paul and its coming across as quite Pedantic. Read what's actually being said and not what and how you want to read it.

Government is not responsible  for procurement, MOD involvement is not purely for procurement but for many other roles but you tunnelling it purely back to suit your agenda.
		
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No I’m not, the Government have stepped up the MOD and other agencies to help.

Someone, somewhere believes there is an issue with PPE, why isn’t NHS Procurement getting the help they so obviously need, you keep saying the Govrrnment is not responsible for this one element, I totally disagree and it’s not being pedantic when I say they are responsible for every single bit.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So when is the time? You’re saying now isn’t the time to investigate and with outside agencies feeling they need to step up and hobbit telling us some hospitals are fine, where is this perceived problem PPE needed and why isn’t it being nipped in the bud?
		
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Just maybe everyone is doing their best and nows not the time to start outside investigations.  Would you not expect the management structures to be trying to get efficiency and best results?   The Daily Mail supplying some PPE and Hancock thanking them is nothing for people to get politically lathered up about.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So when is the time? You’re saying now isn’t the time to investigate and with outside agencies feeling they need to step up and hobbit telling us some hospitals are fine, where is this perceived problem PPE needed and why isn’t it being nipped in the bud?
		
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The time to investigate all of the failings is post curve once we're past the worst of it. When people can be pulled away from where they need to be.


pauldj42 said:



			No I’m not, the Government have stepped up the MOD and other agencies to help.

Someone, somewhere believes there is an issue with PPE, why isn’t NHS Procurement getting the help they so obviously need, you keep saying the Govrrnment is not responsible for this one element, I totally disagree and it’s not being pedantic when I say they are responsible for every single bit.
		
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Yes you are, government have stepped up the MOD for numerous roles not just provision of PPE but that is the only area you focus on because it's suits what you want to push and talk about.

I'm not going to continue to debate it with you because clearly you cannot see past your own view point that everything seemingly is about PPE including the MOD, depsite fact they were used to build nightingale hospitals, drive oxygen trucks which are needed in greater numbers or drive ambulances so that instead of having qualified technicians sat by a roadside they can have them in emergency rooms and in wards providing health care to the sick. None of those uses for the MOD are PPE related but you don't seem to want to look at positive uses. 

So on that basis I'm out 👋


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with you on this one. The govt provide the resource, and if the problem is still there, there needs to be a discussion between both the govt and the NHS Procurement about why that resource hasn't satisfied the need. AND its the govt's responsibility to provide more resource if needed.
		
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And there probably have been discussions and more resource supplied through the military.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My post suggested the GOVERNMENT instruct Civil Servants to sort things out so how can you turn that around to me saying unelected unaccountable bureaucrats are being given responsibility.  The clue in my post was 'Government instruct'  or do we expect Matt Hancock to go out and do it all on his own.
		
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Happy for government to appoint/instruct 'agents' to deliver it's responsibilities as long as it retains the accountability...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			The time to investigate all of the failings is post curve once we're past the worst of it. When people can be pulled away from where they need to be.

Yes you are, government have stepped up the MOD for numerous roles not just provision of PPE but that is the only area you focus on because it's suits what you want to push and talk about.

I'm not going to continue to debate it with you because clearly you cannot see past your own view point that everything seemingly is about PPE including the MOD, depsite fact they were used to build nightingale hospitals, drive oxygen trucks which are needed in greater numbers or drive ambulances so that instead of having qualified technicians sat by a roadside they can have them in emergency rooms and in wards providing health care to the sick. None of those uses for the MOD are PPE related but you don't seem to want to look at positive uses.

So on that basis I'm out 👋
		
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Disappointing post tbf, you accusse me of spin then do exactly that over my point with the MOD, I was using them as an example of the Government calling in support of an outside resource, nowhere did I make their role specific.

As for investigating all failings post curve, I’m gobsmacked, just how many NHS Staff lives are you willing to risk while we get over the peak?

Even with your Military background you know no plan survives first contact and you remain flexible, I’m sure if out on Patrol you received information that could cost lives you wouldn’t carry on and discuss it in the post op report.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Happy for government to appoint/instruct 'agents' to deliver it's responsibilities as long as it retains the accountability...
		
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Aren't we all accountable for our actions.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Disappointing post tbf, you accusse me of spin then do exactly that over my point with the MOD, I was using them as an example of the Government calling in support of an outside resource, nowhere did I make their role specific.

As for investigating all failings post curve, I’m gobsmacked, just how many NHS Staff lives are you willing to risk while we get over the peak?

Even with your Military background you know no plan survives first contact and you remain flexible, I’m sure if out on Patrol you received information that could cost lives you wouldn’t carry on and discuss it in the post op report.
		
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No spin I've stated facts of other things that have been done. Feel free to be disappointed, I wasn't seeking your approval.  

You say my post is poor but I'm sorry this last one of yours is in very poor tatse. 

I have not said any loss of life is acceptable so don't throw that at me. 

Plus i know very well how a military contact works in a war zone having been involved in several so again poor bringing that up at all as that is something I simply refuse to discuss personal experience of on an open forum

So as such a I refer you back to my last response to you... 

I'm out and refuse to debate any further with someone unwilling to even listen or spin in their own favour


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No spin I've stated facts of other things that have been done. Feel free to be disappointed, I wasn't seeking your approval. 

You say my post is poor but I'm sorry this last one of yours is in very poor tatse.

I have not said any loss of life is acceptable so don't throw that at me.

Plus i know very well how a military contact works in a war zone having been involved in several so again poor bringing that up at all as that is something I simply refuse to discuss personal experience of on an open forum

So as such a I refer you back to my last response to you...

I'm out and refuse to debate any further with someone unwilling to even listen or spin in their own favour
		
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You can keep saying you are out as much as you like, it doesn’t stop me replying.

I have spun nothing, you took my words to mean one thing without clarification, as for saying my post is in poor taste look at what you posted about investigations.

If just one Trust has performed poorly in procuring PPE the knock on effect is that it could put Staff lives at risk.
That in my opinion is unacceptable and needs sorting as soon as it is found out, you stated and I quote

“The time to investigate all of the failings is post curve once we're past the worst of it.” 

Hence my question to you about acceptable loss of life.

Then your Military Career? Were on earth did I ask you to discuss your time on Operations?

Even on exercise and training you’re taught to remain flexible and think on your feet etc.


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You can keep saying you are out as much as you like, it doesn’t stop me replying.

I have spun nothing, you took my words to mean one thing without clarification, as for saying my post is in poor taste look at what you posted about investigations.

If just one Trust has performed poorly in procuring PPE the knock on effect is that it could put Staff lives at risk.
That in my opinion is unacceptable and needs sorting as soon as it is found out, you stated and I quote

“The time to investigate all of the failings is post curve once we're past the worst of it.”

Hence my question to you about acceptable loss of life.

Then your Military Career? Were on earth did I ask you to discuss your time on Operations?

Even on exercise and training you’re taught to remain flexible and think on your feet etc.
		
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😴


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			😴
		
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Nice reply, still a reply though and another like off the forum troll. Big up you.


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## patricks148 (Apr 29, 2020)

wonder how they are going to explain how they have not managed the 100,000 people a day to be tested, on the BBC this morning the guy put ups that fig was not close to the target.

why lie or carry on bluffing a changeing the target,  why not just say they got it wrong?


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:
😴
Nice reply, still a reply though and another like off the forum troll. Big up you.
		
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Agreed.....


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## MegaSteve (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Aren't we all accountable for our actions.
		
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Seemingly not so if you're a Tory government minister...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 29, 2020)

How politics works in Scotland.

Unionist journalist to First Minister...…..will you be closing the border.
First Minister replies...…….I do not have the power to close the border.
Idiotic Scots Tory leader…..makes a statement that the First Minister intends to close the border.
99% of Scottish press go with ...……..Nicola Sturgeon plans to close the border.
The 48% of the Scots population who favour Unionism say it is an absolute disgrace that Sturgeon should close the border.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 29, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			wonder how they are going to explain how they have not managed the 100,000 people a day to be tested, on the BBC this morning the guy put ups that fig was not close to the target.

why lie or carry on bluffing a changeing the target,  why not just say they got it wrong?
		
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This is the thing I have a problem with. I have sympathy for the government on PPE, it's a global issue and we don't produce our own. The media has picked up on this because frontline staff are succumbing and it's emotive but i'm not sure how much more they can do in this global fight for PPE. 
We do however have the testing capacity in this country already, no need to source from overseas it has just needed co-ordinating. The first issue is that unlike some countries with better testing regimens we didn't start the ball rolling soon enough. Before we get a vaccine data is going to be thing that helps us get back some level of normality.  For example Germany has been at 100.000 tests a day for a month now if used that gives them ~2.5 million results which allows them to see how this is or isn't spreading through their population and what % may or may not have had it. We have now increased capacity but are struggling to get enough uptake which means these centralised super test centres aren't working as they should and the reporting of the results has been a mess.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf and Paul
Agree to disagree and move on 
Please


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Seemingly not so if you're a Tory government minister...
		
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Really!


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## MegaSteve (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Really!
		
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Yes... Really!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			This is the thing I have a problem with. I have sympathy for the government on PPE, it's a global issue and we don't produce our own. The media has picked up on this because frontline staff are succumbing and it's emotive but i'm not sure how much more they can do in this global fight for PPE.
We do however have the testing capacity in this country already, no need to source from overseas it has just needed co-ordinating. The first issue is that unlike some countries with better testing regimens we didn't start the ball rolling soon enough. Before we get a vaccine data is going to be thing that helps us get back some level of normality.  For example Germany has been at 100.000 tests a day for a month now if used that gives them ~2.5 million results which allows them to see how this is or isn't spreading through their population and what % may or may not have had it. We have now increased capacity but are struggling to get enough uptake which means these centralised super test centres aren't working as they should and the reporting of the results has been a mess.
		
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Surely to see how the virus is spreading through the population you would need to do 60million tests a week.  Aren't these current tests designed to reassure / check vunerable and vital people.  The only other way they can be helpful would be in conjunction with a contact tracing app.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Yes... Really!
		
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Explain yourself please.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely to see how the virus is spreading through the population you would need to do 60million tests a week.  Aren't these current tests designed to reassure / check vunerable and vital people.  The only other way they can be helpful would be in conjunction with a contact tracing app.
		
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If we'd been able to do contact tracing amongst people who have flagged up as positive for longer then that data would be vital to extrapolating. We also have no idea about asymptomatic cases. It's ok every frontline worker who has symptoms isolating themselves but what about the asymptomatic ones they could be super spreaders? They may be a large or a small % of the population we have no idea. The only way we will find out now is if an antibody test becomes available


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

Having read quite a few of the latter posts I just feel that the blame for almost everything can genuinely be put down to the powers that be lacking just one thing - hindsight  !


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Having read quite a few of the latter posts I just feel that the blame for almost everything can genuinely be put down to the powers that be lacking just one thing - hindsight  !
		
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Exactly right and why we should be supporting where we can as a nation. Then once we're in position to conduct an inquest in this period and only then should it be done. Government, NHS or whoever else can look at what they got right, got wrong and where improvements can be made individually or collectively.

Hindsight is such a marvellous thing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Having read quite a few of the latter posts I just feel that the blame for almost everything can genuinely be put down to the powers that be lacking just one thing - hindsight  !
		
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It’s not about blame Chris, it’s about those in authority accepting responsibility.
The blame game is an easy option and nothing gets done.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Exactly right and why we should be supporting where we can as a nation. Then once we're in position to conduct an inquest in this period and only then should it be done. Government, NHS or whoever eale can look at what they got right, got wrong and where improvements can be made individually or collectively.

Hindsight is such a marvellous thing.
		
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Unless it costs lives.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unless it costs lives.

Click to expand...

Once Covid19 reached these shores lives were inevitably going to be lost, and in high numbers, the Government of the day will always be blamed for not doing things correctly but that is clearly in hindsight. I absolutely agree that if any part of the handling of the pandemic was done totally negligently then heads should roll, but I'm seeing too much of people on all manner of social media blaming Boris etc etc on totally party affiliation lines and, even on here, it is obvious to me after reading the Brexit threads for 3+ years for that most of the criticism here and elsewhere seem to be more anti Boris related given that some will criticise everything he does


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Once Covid19 reached these shores lives were inevitably going to be lost, and in high numbers, the Government of the day will always be blamed for not doing things correctly but that is clearly in hindsight. I absolutely agree that if any part of the handling of the pandemic was done totally negligently then heads should roll, but I'm seeing too much of people on all manner of social media blaming Boris etc etc on totally party affiliation lines and, even on here, it is obvious to me after reading the Brexit threads for 3+ years for that most of the criticism here and elsewhere seem to be more anti Boris related given that some will criticise everything he does
		
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Spot on 👍🏻


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Once Covid19 reached these shores lives were inevitably going to be lost, and in high numbers, the Government of the day will always be blamed for not doing things correctly but that is clearly in hindsight. I absolutely agree that if any part of the handling of the pandemic was done totally negligently then heads should roll, but I'm seeing too much of people on all manner of social media blaming Boris etc etc on totally party affiliation lines and, even on here, it is obvious to me after reading the Brexit threads for 3+ years for that most of the criticism here and elsewhere seem to be more anti Boris related given that some will criticise everything he does
		
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Then you need to ignore them, unfortunately people would do that regardless of political allegiance when the opposition is in power.

I personally believe the Government have been great in their handling of this crisis and very much doubt anyone would of done better.

That still doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be asked questions and held accountable, they are also learning as they go along, this is totally unprecedented.

The idea of blind loyalty is ridiculous though, I thought history had taught us that is not the way to go.


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Once Covid19 reached these shores lives were inevitably going to be lost, and in high numbers, the Government of the day will always be blamed for not doing things correctly but that is clearly in hindsight. I absolutely agree that if any part of the handling of the pandemic was done totally negligently then heads should roll, but I'm seeing too much of people on all manner of social media blaming Boris etc etc on totally party affiliation lines and, even on here, it is obvious to me after reading the Brexit threads for 3+ years for that most of the criticism here and elsewhere seem to be more anti Boris related given that some will criticise everything he does
		
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That's disgraceful the way you're bringing politics into it......  we need to be above politics in this......   far to serious, so please STOP IT!!


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

I’m not interested in the slightest in the colour of the rosette that people are wearing currently. But I am concerned that people think that lessons can only be learned once the damage is done.

 Frontline health workers are dying right now, every day. And I’d like to think that we can be learning lessons as we go. And if avoidable mistakes have been made then we need to act now. Not in 12 months. And I don’t care if it’s politicians, senior NHS staff or Doris the cleaner. There is an ongoing duty to protect lives. It doesn’t get put on hold whilst we’re just a bit busy.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			That's disgraceful the way you're bringing politics into it......  we need to be above politics in this......   far to serious, so please STOP IT!!
		
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Please dont keep telling me what I can and can't post Dave.


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## Beezerk (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			but I'm seeing too much of people on all manner of social media blaming Boris etc etc on totally party affiliation lines and, even on here, it is obvious to me after reading the Brexit threads for 3+ years for that most of the criticism here and elsewhere seem to be more anti Boris related given that some will criticise everything he does
		
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110%
It's slowly become the norm of the last 3 or 4 years to openly slag off the PM or the party who opposes your stance. I don't recall it ever being like that before, not on this scale anyway.
It's almost tribal now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Exactly right and why we should be supporting where we can as a nation. Then once we're in position to conduct an inquest in this period and only then should it be done. Government, NHS or whoever else can look at what they got right, got wrong and where improvements can be made individually or collectively.

Hindsight is such a marvellous thing.
		
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Foresight is useful when you are in government...especially when you have been given plenty of warning of things to come...at some point in time...


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			110%
It's slowly become the norm of the last 3 or 4 years to openly slag off the PM or the party who opposes your stance. I don't recall it ever being like that before, not on this scale anyway.
It's almost tribal now.
		
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Sorry Beezerk, I'd like to agree but the (possibly) new moderator has told me that I'm not allowed to politicise the thread despite that I feel the criticism of the government handling of the crisis  is coming over as political bias a lot of the time


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Foresight is useful when you are in government...especially when you have been given plenty of warning of things to come...at some point in time...

Click to expand...

Said in hindsight 🤣


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## Beezerk (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Sorry Beezerk, I'd like to agree but the (possibly) new moderator has told me that I'm not allowed to politicise the thread despite that I feel the criticism of the government handling of the crisis  is coming over as political bias a lot of the time
		
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I thought this was the political thread 🤔🤣


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			That's disgraceful the way you're bringing politics into it......  we need to be above politics in this......   far to serious, so please STOP IT!!
		
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Er, read the thread title....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m not interested in the slightest in the colour of the rosette that people are wearing currently. But I am concerned that people think that lessons can only be learned once the damage is done.

Frontline health workers are dying right now, every day. And I’d like to think that we can be learning lessons as we go. And if avoidable mistakes have been made then we need to act now. Not in 12 months. And I don’t care if it’s politicians, senior NHS staff or Doris the cleaner. There is an ongoing duty to protect lives. It doesn’t get put on hold whilst we’re just a bit busy.
		
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I wholeheartedly agree. 

My one concern is that the authorities do not get diverted from dealing with the ongoing issue. 

Therefore, questions and observations need to be about operational issues and not broad policy matters,  as the latter would soon descend into party political point scoring.

If that is to be then the time for it is when "normality" returns and a full review can be undertaken.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Said in hindsight 🤣
		
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I don't think so.  If the environment agency knows that due to changes upstream from a town that a river is likely to flood - then it does not take great foresight to plan for new flood defences.  They go for funding.  They get funding.  They build the flood defences.  Were they worth while?  Only time will tell.  But when the floods come and the defences hold then all are grateful.  If they plan the defences and they don't get funding and they are not built and the river floods the town - then all hell breaks loose...why?...because we were warned.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 29, 2020)

The general mood in the public seems to be counter to what people are feeling on here. Just another bit of interesting info, not trying to politicise, only offering it up for discussion.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think so.  If the environment agency knows that due to changes upstream from a town that a river is likely to flood - then it does not take great foresight to plan for new flood defences.  They go for funding.  They get funding.  They build the flood defences.  Were they worth while?  Only time will tell.  But when the floods come and the defences hold then all are grateful.
		
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But if the flood the town Hall has been advised of might be around 20,000 but its already at 21,678 and going to rise a lot further.... Questions to be asked, yes but no damnation when the science said 20 but the answer is 30.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Er, read the thread title....

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Well spotted Brian 🤣🤣🤣
Last time he told me off it was for apparently for butting into his conversation when clearly it was the other way round  - I just wish he'd put me on ignore!


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



View attachment 30321

The general mood in the public seems to be counter to what people are feeling on here. Just another bit of interesting info, not trying to politicise, only offering it up for discussion.
		
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You are allowed to politicise it if you want  - as Hobbit wrote " look at the thread title"


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Well spotted Brian 🤣🤣🤣
Last time he told me off it was for apparently for butting into his conversation when clearly it was the other way round  - I just wish he'd put me on ignore!
		
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Mmm, methinks someone has fallen face first on an omelette.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But if the flood the town Hall has been advised of might be around 20,000 but its already at 21,678 and going to rise a lot further.... Questions to be asked, yes but no damnation when the science said 20 but the answer is 30.
		
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Or when you know you're going to be hit by a pandemic in a few days/weeks and those criticising really dont know full what's going on behind the scenes


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, methinks someone has fallen face first on an omelette.
		
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I know he disagrees with my political views as do I his, but I left school years ago and he doesn't still work in one! If anyone thinks the the subject isn't political they should just watch the press questions at 5pm or pop along to Facebook  👍


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 29, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			If we'd been able to do contact tracing amongst people who have flagged up as positive for longer then that data would be vital to extrapolating. We also have no idea about asymptomatic cases. It's ok every frontline worker who has symptoms isolating themselves but what about the asymptomatic ones they could be super spreaders? They may be a large or a small % of the population we have no idea. The only way we will find out now is if an antibody test becomes available
		
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Well, yes, that's true, but the fact that we haven't got that ability is not anyone's fault.  IIRC, the antibody test has only just been developed ( reliably) and doesn't function properly until the subject has been some while after being infected and cured.
So that one isn't a case of "not coordinating "
The contact/ trace app has just been developed in Australia and we haven't got one yet, I believe..
Your previous post does suggest a criticism of sluggishness by the government for not getting such initiatives underway sooner .Maybe you didn't intend that, and if you didn't I apologise, but testing without contact tracing is limited in its efficiency. 
Testing you on Tuesday doesn't mean you aren't positive on Thursday.
Yes, it would tell you if positive a little while before you became aware( so you could isolate) but it did take some days for the result ( now improved, I believe)
It would, I agree, be useful to identify asymptomatics, but as SR says, that means testing most of the population.I don't think there are too many asymptotics around (who go through the *whole* process of infection and cure without symptoms. ). Not to justify mass testing.
 Most infected people have symptoms and hopefully they would isolate.
The contact/trace app is a good bet at the moment, and a self testing antibody kit, if there is such a thing as that.
And , fingers crossed for the work at Oxford Uni.😀


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Or when you know you're going to be hit by a pandemic in a few days/weeks and those criticising really dont know full what's going on behind the scenes
		
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You could also look at it that we had a heads up from countries like Italy and Spain and could well come out with a worse death rate than them and one not as favourable as a country who got their first cases around the same time like Germany. That isn't a great look


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m not interested in the slightest in the colour of the rosette that people are wearing currently. But I am concerned that people think that lessons can only be learned once the damage is done.

Frontline health workers are dying right now, every day. And I’d like to think that we can be learning lessons as we go. And if avoidable mistakes have been made then we need to act now. Not in 12 months. And I don’t care if it’s politicians, senior NHS staff or Doris the cleaner. There is an ongoing duty to protect lives. It doesn’t get put on hold whilst we’re just a bit busy.
		
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Does anyone think all these people are not learning and adjusting procedure as they go along.  I believe politicians, senior NHS staff and hopefully Doris are all doing their upmost to get us through this horrible situation and as such deserve our support.  Yes, there will be lessons to be learned now and later but those lessons need to primarily be used in a way that makes us better and stronger, not as a finger pointing exercise.


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## patricks148 (Apr 29, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, yes, that's true, but the fact that we haven't got that ability is not anyone's fault.  IIRC, the antibody test has only just been developed ( reliably) and doesn't function properly until the subject has been some while after being infected and cured.
So that one isn't a case of "not coordinating "
The contact/ trace app has just been developed in Australia and we haven't got one yet, I believe..
Your previous post does suggest a criticism of sluggishness by the government for not getting such initiatives underway sooner .Maybe you didn't intend that, and if you didn't I apologise, but testing without contact tracing is limited in its efficiency.
Testing you on Tuesday doesn't mean you aren't positive on Thursday.
Yes, it would tell you if positive a little while before you became aware( so you could isolate) but it did take some days for the result ( now improved, I believe)
It would, I agree, be useful to identify asymptomatics, but as SR says, that means testing most of the population.I don't think there are too many asymptotics around (who go through the *whole* process of infection and cure without symptoms. ). Not to justify mass testing.
Most infected people have symptoms and hopefully they would isolate.
The contact/trace app is a good bet at the moment, and a self testing antibody kit, if there is such a thing as that.
And , fingers crossed for the work at Oxford Uni.😀
		
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thats fair enough but why make the target then avoid owning up to not making it and trying to change the goal posts.


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I know he disagrees with my political views as do I his, but I left school years ago and he doesn't still work in one! If anyone thinks the the subject isn't political they should just watch the press questions at 5pm or pop along to Facebook  👍
		
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  Keep digging will yer...  as I can still see your heed!! haha


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 29, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It would, I agree, be useful to identify asymptomatics, but as SR says, that means testing most of the population.I don't think there are too many asymptotics around (who go through the *whole* process of infection and cure without symptoms. ). Not to justify mass testing.
		
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The reason the WHO said test test test is because extensive testing is at the heart of understanding any pandemic. The results are just as relevant if they are picking up positives, asymptomatics, negatives re-tests etc. The more data the epidemiologists have the better decisions can be made . The sluggishness on the scale up has meant none of the general population outwith of those admitted to hospital have been tested which now means we have to wait for  reliable antibody test to be available before we can better understand better the % spread in the population.


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			wonder how they are going to explain how they have not managed the 100,000 people a day to be tested, on the BBC this morning the guy put ups that fig was not close to the target.

why lie or carry on bluffing a changeing the target,  why not just say they got it wrong?
		
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Turning round, the question should be, "The capacity was there, why wasn't it used". Earlier in the testing phase it was up to the NHS to submit those workers requiring testing for testing, never happened so early capacity was wasted.

There are serious questions to be asked in the future on the ability and suitability of some in the NHS to perform in the jobs they are in.


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Does anyone think all these people are not learning and adjusting procedure as they go along.  I believe politicians, senior NHS staff and hopefully Doris are all doing their upmost to get us through this horrible situation and as such deserve our support.  Yes, there will be lessons to be learned now and later but those lessons need to primarily be used in a way that makes us better and stronger, not as a finger pointing exercise.
		
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And the only way we’ll know that is by the Journalists asking the questions, and the people answering them being transparent in their responses. 

What shouldn’t happen is that it is just blindly accepted that “everyone’s trying their best and we should just trust them”. 

No, not everyone is fit for the role they currently hold, and of someone is doing a bad job then they should be removed and someone else given the responsibility, before another Nurse/Doctor/Paramedic dies.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 29, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



View attachment 30321

The general mood in the public seems to be counter to what people are feeling on here. Just another bit of interesting info, not trying to politicise, only offering it up for discussion.
		
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No idea how but I'm somehow on the list for YouGov for questions covid related. I get a series of very short questions to answer online every couple of days. They are multiple choice questions and as you answer it gives you the % figure of what everyone has answered. 

I'd say throughout this the numbers I'm seeing are largely supportive and sympathetic to the situation the government are in and their response to it. There is no sign at this point that the answers mirror the angst of our media towards the govt.

It's quite interesting doing it, the questions are cleverly simple and to the point. It's almost as if they do this for a living 😁


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No idea how but I'm somehow on the list for YouGov for questions covid related. I get a series of very short questions to answer online every couple of days. They are multiple choice questions and as you answer it gives you the % figure of what everyone has answered.

I'd say throughout this the numbers I'm seeing are largely supportive and sympathetic to the situation the government are in and their response to it. There is no sign at this point that the answers mirror the angst of our media towards the govt.

It's quite interesting doing it, the questions are cleverly simple and to the point. It's almost as if they do this for a living 😁
		
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Yep get them daily and the results are interesting to say the least.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



  Keep digging will yer...  as I can still see your heed!! haha
		
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Not quite sure how I'm "digging" on a thread that was specifically setup to discuss the political views on coronavirus and you tell me NOT to bring politics into it - just thought you might be a little embarrassed to post here again so soon 🤔🤔


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## AmandaJR (Apr 29, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



View attachment 30321

The general mood in the public seems to be counter to what people are feeling on here. Just another bit of interesting info, not trying to politicise, only offering it up for discussion.
		
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In terms of journalists that's the opposite of what I've seen on Facebook.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 29, 2020)

The UK figures are now starting to look pretty serious now that the England totals are including care home deaths.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			In terms of journalists that's the opposite of what I've seen on Facebook.
		
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These polls obviously have their flaws but the problem with social media is that the algorithms push similar articles and points of view so we end up in our own echo chambers only hearing supporting arguments for our own standpoints. It's only done this way to make people want to use the platforms more there's nothing sinister in it but it does make it dangerous for which ever side of the fence we sit on. We are losing the ability to see both sides of the argument in society.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK figures are now starting to look pretty serious now that the England totals are including care home deaths.

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree but equally we may be comparing against countries that don't include them.

The numbers are horrible whatever but it doesn't necessarily mean we are an exception. Better that the numbers reflect the truth than things are hidden or manipulated.


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## patricks148 (Apr 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Turning round, the question should be, "The capacity was there, why wasn't it used". Earlier in the testing phase it was up to the NHS to submit those workers requiring testing for testing, never happened so early capacity was wasted.

There are serious questions to be asked in the future on the ability and suitability of some in the NHS to perform in the jobs they are in.
		
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not wrong there, but its will be the Bosses that should carry the can, and what would happen there a Golden handshake, where if it were just some pleb making the same level of mistakes would be fired on the spot


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			In terms of journalists that's the opposite of what I've seen on Facebook.
		
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Sorry Amanda. I did have a little laugh at that. I know it’s not what you meant, but I’m just picturing someone using Facebook as a method of gauging Public mood. 
Sorry 😉


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			And the only way we’ll know that is by the Journalists asking the questions, and the people answering them being transparent in their responses.

What shouldn’t happen is that it is just blindly accepted that “everyone’s trying their best and we should just trust them”.

No, not everyone is fit for the role they currently hold, and of someone is doing a bad job then they should be removed and someone else given the responsibility, before another Nurse/Doctor/Paramedic dies.
		
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When people are doing their jobs correctly those tasks are part of everyday management, why should we think it's not being done? Imagine a wartime situation (and fighting this virus is very similar in many ways) would we expect the military to be managing the day to day activities or should the Generals have to be paraded out each day and be questioned by the press to make Joe Public satisfied they are making all the correct decisions.

Regarding journalists, they're not asking questions on our behalf or representatives of the public  they are doing it to sell news papers. OK, freedom of the press is a cornerstone of democracy but we put very well paid professionals into positions that allow our services to be run effectively, we cannot expect to be constantly checking if these people are competent In their roles.  Later when there is time we can re visit, learn and make any structural changes.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Explain yourself please.
		
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I believe I have explained on several occasions... Whilst yourself and others prefer to deflect and continue to view the shortcomings of the current government in a blinkered fashion... The first priority of any government is the safety of the electorate... If that safety is being compromised then government should expect close scrutiny... Deflection of blame to its chosen agencies should be viewed as an indicator of poor/inadequate governance...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 29, 2020)

I am not comparing anything with anything........just looking at the number of deaths in the UK and wondering why there was a delay in recording care home deaths.
We were told follow the science, which told us 20,000 deaths. 200,000 if we do nothing.
It is clearly going to be more than double 20,000, so the science modal this governments is following is flawed.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 29, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			These polls obviously have their flaws but the problem with social media is that the *algorithms push similar articles and points of view so we end up in our own echo chambers only hearing supporting arguments for our own standpoints.* *It's only done this way to make people want to use the platforms more there's nothing sinister i*n it but it does make it dangerous for which ever side of the fence we sit on. We are losing the ability to see both sides of the argument in society.
		
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Actually there is quite a lot of sinister things going on with Facebook , Google, Amazon, Microsoft et al (well Apple is better than most) as they are building up an extremely detailed picture of what you like, where you go, what you buy, what your health is like etc etc.  Which they then monitize through things like targeted marketing.  But we are now moving into behaviour modification where your behaviour is modified based on what they know about you. This can be anything from them telling you you need to go on a walk to pointing you towards specific outlets/restaurants. Or they are selling this data to insurance companies and your chance of getting insurance will decline based on your behaviour.  But you are right in that they also tend to promote echo chambers, but a lot of that has always been done by the individual as well by through who they follow, which paper they read, which TV stations they get their news from etc.


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## IanM (Apr 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not comparing anything with anything........just looking at the number of deaths in the UK and wondering why there was a delay in recording care home deaths.
We were told follow the science, which told us 20,000 deaths. 200,000 if we do nothing.
It is clearly going to be more than double 20,000, so the science modal this governments is following is flawed.
		
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Yeah, they should have used the proper model from every time this happens!      Therein lies the trouble.  

Remove the political leanings and hindsight from the reporting and discussion, and what are you left with?  Gratitude that we are not one of the folk stood at the lectern each evening.


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Not quite sure how I'm "digging" on a thread that was specifically setup to discuss the political views on coronavirus and you tell me NOT to bring politics into it - just thought you might be a little embarrassed to post here again so soon 🤔🤔
		
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Aye... of course it's a Political thread Chris & welcome to it ....... just keep jumping in up to your neck & I'll keep telling you...  & don't tell me that I can't!! ....  the Sunday school classes were a few days ago. 
Also whilst you're at it why not explain to us why it's OK for us to be heading towards having the greatest number of deaths in Europe given we're behind so many other Nations so could see what was working or not.


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK figures are now starting to look pretty serious now that the England totals are including care home deaths.

Click to expand...

Unless you look at per capita then they look like most of the other European countries


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			When people are doing their jobs correctly those tasks are part of everyday management, why should we think it's not being done? Imagine a wartime situation (and fighting this virus is very similar in many ways) would we expect the military to be managing the day to day activities or should the Generals have to be paraded out each day and be questioned by the press to make Joe Public satisfied they are making all the correct decisions.

Regarding journalists, they're not asking questions on our behalf or representatives of the public  they are doing it to sell news papers. OK, freedom of the press is a cornerstone of democracy but we put very well paid professionals into positions that allow our services to be run effectively, we cannot expect to be constantly checking if these people are competent In their roles.  Later when there is time we can re visit, learn and make any structural changes.
		
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This isn’t a war. It’s not soldiers dying. I’m not overly comfortable with the constant need to compare this with war. 

Front line health workers are dying now. So yes, answers should be forthcoming. Action should be taken, and yes, heads should roll now. Whoever that may be. Whatever colour rosette.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Aye... of course it's a Political thread Chris & welcome to it ....... just keep jumping in up to your neck & I'll keep telling you...  & don't tell me that I can't!! ....  the Sunday school classes were a few days ago. 
Also whilst you're at it why not explain to us why it's OK for us to be heading towards having the greatest number of deaths in Europe given we're behind so many other Nations so could see what was working or not.
		
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Got to admire your brass neck Dave. "Don't make it political..." and... by the way, there's still some egg on your chin.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Unless you look at per capita then they look like most of the other European countries
		
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I've wondered why that statistic hasn't been shown more often...if at all until today. I'd have thought it is relevant and showed how the USA which seems like they're failing hugely in just the straight number of deaths but looks a "better" result when per million of population.


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I've wondered why that statistic hasn't been shown more often...if at all until today. I'd have thought it is relevant and showed how the USA which seems like they're failing hugely in just the straight number of deaths but looks a "better" result when per million of population.
		
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Makes more sense and it was said that different countries have different accounting measures. People need to remember, it's not a competition.


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Got to admire your brass neck Dave. "Don't make it political..." and... by the way, there's still some egg on your chin.

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Bri...  you know where I'm from which prepared me well for nearly 40 years on the front-line in one of the most deprived council estates in the UK........ even got a mention as such during the last election. So when Chris jumps in up to his neck he's gonna get one....  its as simple as that so don't try & complicate things.  Is it shorts again today??


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			This isn’t a war. It’s not soldiers dying. I’m not overly comfortable with the constant need to compare this with war.

Front line health workers are dying now. So yes, answers should be forthcoming. Action should be taken, and yes, heads should roll now. Whoever that may be. Whatever colour rosette.
		
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Surely you understand the analogy and soldiers dying is not and wasnt the point.

Do you honestly believe anyone is happy with anyone dieng let alone health workers, our difference seems to be that I believe the people managing this situation are doing it as best they can while learning and adjusting to improve where possible, you suggest we should be constantly questioning and pointing fingers.  The speed this has ripped through the Nation is crazy and it's too easy to say we could have done things better.

I'm not interested in the party politics either.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Bri...  you know where I'm from which prepared me well for nearly 40 years on the front-line in one of the most deprived council estates in the UK........ even got a mention as such during the last election. So when Chris jumps in up to his neck he's gonna get one....  its as simple as that so don't try & complicate things.  Is it shorts again today??
		
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Dave, I accept your politics. But if you have a read back, you jumped in all sanctimonious saying "no politics, its too serious for that," or some such words. Look at the thread title. not arguing your politics, just saying its hilarious. You made yourself look foolish, and gave yourself egg on your chin. That's all, no big deal.

Oh, and stop digging. You're just making yourself look more foolish trying to duck it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			And the only way we’ll know that is by the Journalists asking the questions, and the people answering them being transparent in their responses.

What shouldn’t happen is that it is just blindly accepted that “everyone’s trying their best and we should just trust them”.

No, not everyone is fit for the role they currently hold, and of someone is doing a bad job then they should be removed and someone else given the responsibility, before another Nurse/Doctor/Paramedic dies.
		
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To be determined by who?  Journalists' opinion that a bad job is being done, and based on what? 
Or Facebook, or Twitter, or Polls, or who - exactly. 
Bad figures doesn't prove an inefficiency necessarily.
Hancock failing to test 100,000 by the end of April does, does it?
The man had worked his socks off and yet, there will be calls.
He could have lowered his sights, but he aspired to 100,000. 
So, you want to accuse him of some sort of heinous wrongdoing.
Read Theodore Roosevelt's take on The Critics.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			To be determined by who?  Journalists' opinion that a bad job is being done, and based on what?
Or Facebook, or Twitter, or Polls, or who - exactly.
Bad figures doesn't prove an inefficiency necessarily.
Hancock failing to test 100,000 by the end of April does, does it?
The man had worked his socks off and yet, there will be calls.
He could have lowered his sights, but he aspired to 100,000.
So, you want to accuse him of some sort of heinous wrongdoing.
Read Theodore Roosevelt's take on The Critics.
		
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How do you know he’s working his socks off?


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## SaintHacker (Apr 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not comparing anything with anything........just looking at the number of deaths in the UK and wondering why there was a delay in recording care home deaths.
We were told follow the science, which told us 20,000 deaths. 200,000 if we do nothing.
It is clearly going to be more than double 20,000, so the science modal this governments is following is flawed.
		
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No, we were told 20000 would be a good result, they never put a firm figure on it


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Dave, I accept your politics. But if you have a read back, you jumped in all sanctimonious saying "no politics, its too serious for that," or some such words. Look at the thread title. not arguing your politics, just saying its hilarious. You made yourself look foolish, and gave yourself egg on your chin. That's all, no big deal.

Oh, and stop digging. You're just making yourself look more foolish trying to duck it.
		
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Whoosh.,,...  your wasting your time Bri...n  you didn't get it 🤪🤪


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 29, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			No, we were told 20000 would be a good result, they never put a firm figure on it
		
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So over 20,000 is then regarded as not a good result.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

26,000 deaths, and rising, and people think the journalists need to be asking questions like when is lockdown going to be lifted. There are some very good journos out there, but Jesus H. Christ there are some rank bad ones to the fore too.


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## IanM (Apr 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I've wondered why that statistic hasn't been shown more often...if at all until today. I'd have thought it is relevant and showed how the USA which seems like they're failing hugely in just the straight number of deaths but looks a "better" result when per million of population.
		
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If you use the "per head of population" figure you cannot report ours as the worst in Europe.   That's why


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Whoosh.,,...  your wasting your time Bri...n  you didn't get it 🤪🤪
		
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The only person getting it Dave is you. Now run along and have a mug of cocoa and leave the big stuff to the adults.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Makes more sense and it was said that different countries have different accounting measures. People need to remember, it's not a competition.
		
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It isn't but is often seen as such. Germany quoted as dealing with it much better than we are etc. I don't see it that way but it's another stick to bash the government with so kind of surprised they didn't show it earlier!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			26,000 deaths, and rising, and people think the journalists need to be asking questions like when is lockdown going to be lifted. There are some very good journos out there, but Jesus H. Christ there are some rank bad ones to the fore too.
		
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Obviously a horrendous figure, but a lot of that rise today was over 2 months, (copy from website below for some positivity)

The hospital fatality average continues to fall quite dramatically.

578 today is a big improvement on 763, 761, 938 on previous Wednesdays.

The headline data will now include fatalities in all settings, which will cause an increase.

All still moving in the right direction.


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## IanM (Apr 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So over 20,000 is then regarded as not a good result. 

Click to expand...

These are deaths, not tins of beans.  

Just checking .


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not comparing anything with anything........just looking at the number of deaths in the UK and wondering why there was a delay in recording care home deaths.
We were told follow the science, which told us 20,000 deaths. 200,000 if we do nothing.
It is clearly going to be more than double 20,000, so the science modal this governments is following is flawed.
		
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When those things were said the virus was new and weve learned lessons since, you know that.
When you look at the graph showing number of deaths per million of population most countries follow a remarkably similar curve.


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The only person getting it Dave is you. Now run along and have a mug of cocoa and leave the big stuff to the adults.

Click to expand...

Haha....  bit unsmart  that, Bri 😁


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			To be determined by who?  Journalists' opinion that a bad job is being done, and based on what?
Or Facebook, or Twitter, or Polls, or who - exactly.
Bad figures doesn't prove an inefficiency necessarily.
Hancock failing to test 100,000 by the end of April does, does it?
The man had worked his socks off and yet, there will be calls.
He could have lowered his sights, but he aspired to 100,000.
So, you want to accuse him of some sort of heinous wrongdoing.
Read Theodore Roosevelt's take on The Critics.
		
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Who mentioned Hancock? Certainly wasn’t me. I said that the persons responsible for any proven negligence should be removed. I didn’t name a Party or Politician at all.
oh, and I don’t need to read the “Critic”. It’s long been my favourite piece of writing, and one that I’ve quoted many times in the past. But thank you....

Oh, and FWIW, bearing in mind that you know the quote, I believe you’re using it out of context. To put it simply. It states that you shouldn’t criticise the man for trying and/or failing. It doesn’t say that you should let him carry on trying/failing ad infinitum.


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely you understand the analogy and soldiers dying is not and wasnt the point.

Do you honestly believe anyone is happy with anyone dying let alone health workers, our difference seems to be that I believe the people managing this situation are doing it as best they can while learning and adjusting to improve where possible, you suggest we should be constantly questioning and pointing fingers.  The speed this has ripped through the Nation is crazy and it's too easy to say we could have done things better.

I'm not interested in the party politics either.
		
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I’m suggesting that whilst people are still dying then now is the best time to learn. Not after another few hundred healthcare workers have died. 

And no, sorry, but just because you think that people are doing their best isn’t enough for me to accept it. I think people have, and are failing. And yes, some journalists are also failing to ask the right questions. But people are using this to tar all of them as incompetent.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Haha....  bit unsmart  that, Bri 😁
		
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Whoooosh…. you've just been Dave'd


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m suggesting that whilst people are still dying then now is the best time to learn. Not after another few hundred healthcare workers have died.

And no, sorry, but just because you think that people are doing their best isn’t enough for me to accept it. I think people have, and are failing. And yes, some journalists are also failing to ask the right questions. But people are using this to tar all of them as incompetent.
		
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OK. Why do you think these people are dying and what is it you think could have been done to prevent it.


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK. Why do you think these people are dying and what is it you think could have been done to prevent it.
		
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I don’t 100% know yet. That’s why we need journalists to ask the hard questions, Politicians and Senior Scientists to answer them, and the Public to stop politicising it on both sides. If someone has done a poor job, then leaping to their defence just because they’re on your team is incredibly reckless.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Aye... of course it's a Political thread Chris & welcome to it ....... just keep jumping in up to your neck & I'll keep telling you...  & don't tell me that I can't!! ....  the Sunday school classes were a few days ago. 
Also whilst you're at it why not explain to us why it's OK for us to be heading towards having the greatest number of deaths in Europe given we're behind so many other Nations so could see what was working or not.
		
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You can tell me any facts you believe, or positions that you hold, BUT, you cant tell me NOT to post a political observation on a thread specifically set up for that very type of discussion. I am every bit concerned that the number of deaths is hugely worrying and every death is a tragedy- its NOT ok to have more deaths than other countries, but at this stage we dont even know if the reported numbers across the world are gathered the same way, or that they are accurate.

I posted what i did in disgust that people on social media are holding the PM and Government personally responsible for the deaths, I believe that they are all doing their very best to help people and ANY government in power in this type of situation would always do their very best. Any negligence will be highlighted in due course.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Whoosh.,,...  your wasting your time Bri...n  you didn't get it 🤪🤪
		
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Seriously, you're not doing yourself any favours in this thread.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I don’t 100% know yet. That’s why we need journalists to ask the hard questions.
		
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Do you think a Journalist asking why NHS staff have died will make a difference
Do you think people are not trying their best to prevent deaths already.
Have you considered these deaths may be a sad but inevitable cost of trying to save so many lives due to this deadly virus.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The only person getting it Dave is you. Now run along and have a mug of cocoa and leave the big stuff to the adults.

Click to expand...

It's quite amusing as I was bought up in a rough Greater London council estate, did a paper round at 10 years old, had a father leave home when I was 7 years old , was forced to leave grammer school at 15, had an arsewhipe stepfather - so hardly a silver spoon up bringing. I did, however, work hard and eventually started a decent business and did reasonably well  - not great but ok !


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think a Journalist asking why NHS staff have dyed will make a difference
Do you think people are not trying their best to prevent deaths already.
Have you considered these deaths may be a sad but inevitable cost of trying to save so many lives due to this deadly virus.
		
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Of course, it’s a possibility. So let’s find out together shall we? And if it’s not inevitable, then let’s see if we can stop too many more dying, rather than wait until it’s over and realising that we could’ve saved lives if only we’d really tried that little bit harder.

And if you want to know what I think really isn’t helping, it’s people from both sides turning this into a political debate. It shouldn’t be. It should be an ability debate.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It's quite amusing as I was bought up in a rough Greater London council estate, did a paper round at 10 years old, had a father leave home when I was 7 years old , was forced to leave grammer school at 15, had an arsewhipe stepfather - so hardly a silver spoon up bringing. I did, however, work hard and eventually started a decent business and did reasonably well  - not great but ok !
		
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A very similar start to me in life Chris, I think many of our generation know what poverty looks like.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A very similar start to me in life Chris, I think many of our generation know what poverty looks like.
		
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It was very real


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Of course, it’s a possibility. So let’s find out together shall we? And if it’s not inevitable, then let’s see if we can stop too many more dying, rather than wait until it’s over and realising that we could’ve saved lives if only we’d really tried that little bit harder.
		
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OK Danny, I understand that and I'm not looking to score points. I just think that the people doing this are mainly proffessionals and already doing their best to keep staff safe.  If they are not then it would indeed be a disgrace.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A very similar start to me in life Chris, I think many of our generation know what poverty looks like.
		
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Don't be daft. We stole from this generation with our cheap houses.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

Get the violins out, looks like we’re having a “poor off”


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Get the violins out, looks like we’re having a “poor off”







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I was just looking for that. Always tickles me.


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## bluewolf (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK Danny, I understand that and I'm not looking to score points. I just think that the people doing this are mainly proffessionals and already doing their best to keep staff safe.  If they are not then it would indeed be a disgrace.
		
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I would definitely agree. The only proviso I would add is that one persons “best” may not be enough. All I want is to know that everyone is trying their best, and are capable 👍


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Don't be daft. We stole from this generation with our cheap houses.
		
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Oh yes, forgot that bit 🤔


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Get the violins out, looks like we’re having a “poor off”







Click to expand...

He started it.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He started it.
		
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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It's quite amusing as I was bought up in a rough Greater London council estate, did a paper round at 10 years old, had a father leave home when I was 7 years old , was forced to leave grammer school at 15, had an arsewhipe stepfather - so hardly a silver spoon up bringing. I did, however, work hard and eventually started a decent business and did reasonably well  - not great but ok !
		
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I'm sure Dave knows where South Bank is in Middlesbrough. Many of us started out the same way.

Equally, most of us no longer have a Quixotic way of tilting at bonfires that are long since gone.


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It's quite amusing as I was bought up in a rough Greater London council estate, did a paper round at 10 years old, had a father leave home when I was 7 years old , was forced to leave grammer school at 15, had an arsewhipe stepfather - so hardly a silver spoon up bringing. I did, however, work hard and eventually started a decent business and did reasonably well  - not great but ok !
		
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Must say it sounds a bit rough family wise Chris......  but even so you maybe didn't realise, & a bit early for young Bri , that in the UK in the 50's/60's *everywhere* in towns & cities was rough....  council houses were highly sort after & the highest standard of rented accommodation where you would never find yourself having to go outside to the netty in the dark with a candle.......  & Grammer School was a privilege. Any way well done for getting where you did......  it's just some of us don't forget our roots.....  it's important yer knar!


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Must say it sounds a bit rough family wise Chris......  but even so you maybe didn't realise, & a bit early for young Bri , that in the UK in the 50's/60's *everywhere* in towns & cities was rough....  council houses were highly sort after & the highest standard of rented accommodation where you would never find yourself having to go outside to the netty in the dark with a candle.......  & Grammer School was a privilege. Any way well done for getting where you did......  it's just some of us don't forget our roots.....  it's important yer knar! 

Click to expand...

I hardly ever look back, I cant do anything about the past (which I dont have any regrets about) but even now I always try to look forward. Grammar school was only as a result of passing the 11 plus.

You did well too and live a lifestyle, like me, that our parents would have died for, and that is also down to you and your work ethic. We both, it seems, started similarly but our political beliefs and how they have played out during our lives differ and I believe one thing and you the opposite - truth is that there is right and wrong in those opposing views from both sides I suspect.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm sure Dave knows where South Bank is in Middlesbrough. Many of us started out the same way.

Equally, most of us no longer have a Quixotic way of tilting at bonfires that are long since gone.

Click to expand...

Yes, but let's not overdo our new lifestyles.


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## Backache (Apr 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think a Journalist asking why NHS staff have dyed will make a difference
.
		
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I do, far too many people with pink hair these days.


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## Mudball (Apr 29, 2020)

UK deaths will mostly likely overtake Italy at some point. Is it a coincidence that two counties that are ruled by narcissist men who did not take action on time and relied on spin and weak opponents are likely to end up as #1 and #2 in the world despite having access to some of the best science and talent... 

Equally half of the population that support these men can’t see what they did wrong.


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2020)

Backache said:



			I do, far too many people with pink hair these days.
		
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Quote of the day - cheered I up


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			UK deaths will mostly likely overtake Italy at some point. Is it a coincidence that two counties that are ruled by narcissist men who did not take action on time and relied on spin and weak opponents are likely to end up as #1 and #2 in the world despite having access to some of the best science and talent...

Equally half of the population that support these men can’t see what they did wrong.
		
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That's a rather cynical view of the situation.  I guess you are looking at the infection/death rates of countries without considering their populations which is a false picture. Please take a look at the enclosed graphs that show case and death rates per million of population which is a much better comparison.  It does not take into account your somewhat unrelated view of countries leaders.
Top = cases per million population.
Bottom = deaths per million population.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather cynical view of the situation.  I guess you are looking at the infection/death rates of countries without considering their populations which is a false picture. Please take a look at the enclosed graphs that show case and death rates per million of population which is a much better comparison.  It does not take into account your somewhat unrelated view of countries leaders.
Top = cases per million population.
Bottom = deaths per million population.
View attachment 30331
View attachment 30332

Click to expand...

Deaths per million (or indeed total deaths) is a meaningless comparison unless we know that everyone is counting in the same way.

Lots of people are dying of Covid19 in care homes but are not being counted because they weren't tested. There was a story on our local news last night about a care home where 17 residents died in the last 2 weeks. The virus was almost certainly the cause of death in all cases, however only 2 cases will be counted as they were the only ones to be tested. The FT was estimating an overall figure of 43,000 a few days ago.

So lots of cases are being missed here, but no doubt that is also happening to a greater or lesser extent in other countries.


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## drdel (Apr 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather cynical view of the situation.  I guess you are looking at the infection/death rates of countries without considering their populations which is a false picture. Please take a look at the enclosed graphs that show case and death rates per million of population which is a much better comparison.  It does not take into account your somewhat unrelated view of countries leaders.
Top = cases per million population.
Bottom = deaths per million population.
View attachment 30331
View attachment 30332

Click to expand...

The reported stats also ignore population density, important when the transmission requires relatively close contact. London for example is about 7 times higher than the average for the rest of the UK.


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## Mudball (Apr 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather cynical view of the situation.  I guess you are looking at the infection/death rates of countries without considering their populations which is a false picture. Please take a look at the enclosed graphs that show case and death rates per million of population which is a much better comparison.  It does not take into account your somewhat unrelated view of countries leaders.
Top = cases per million population.
Bottom = deaths per million population.
View attachment 30331
View attachment 30332

Click to expand...


IMO... Case per million is quiet a pointless exercise that Trump is now using to show why he is better than the rest of the world combined.   It is interesting to see China and India missing from the above graphs.  I suspect, if you divide anything by 1.5b, the number will disappear off this chart.    If you want smaller populations, then where is NZ or Australia - both islands like UK?  Stats are a good but you can use it to spin any message. 

I would like to see  
1) Tests per million - I suspect S Korea hit that out of the park while US & UK fall behind
2) Fatality/Recovery rate - This would be a magic number which shows the power of science and how many people make a full recovery 

PS: 
1) This post is not meant against your kind self but its my frustration
2) While I dont like BoJo and his bunch of cronies, at the moment, I cant think of a better person to handle it in the UK than him.  He may be a tw*t, but the others are worse.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Deaths per million (or indeed total deaths) is a meaningless comparison unless we know that everyone is counting in the same way.

Lots of people are dying of Covid19 in care homes but are not being counted because they weren't tested. There was a story on our local news last night about a care home where 17 residents died in the last 2 weeks. The virus was almost certainly the cause of death in all cases, however only 2 cases will be counted as they were the only ones to be tested. The FT was estimating an overall figure of 43,000 a few days ago.

So lots of cases are being missed here, but no doubt that is also happening to a greater or lesser extent in other countries.
		
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Yes, it would be good to see the numbers with every consideration factored in but the numbers of deaths in hospitals for example measured country against country is a very poor way of comparison on a graphn. Per million of population is a much better way.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Deaths per million (or indeed total deaths) is a meaningless comparison unless we know that everyone is counting in the same way.

Lots of people are dying of Covid19 in care homes but are not being counted because they weren't tested. There was a story on our local news last night about a care home where 17 residents died in the last 2 weeks. The virus was almost certainly the cause of death in all cases, however only 2 cases will be counted as they were the only ones to be tested. The FT was estimating an overall figure of 43,000 a few days ago.

So lots of cases are being missed here, but no doubt that is also happening to a greater or lesser extent in other countries.
		
Click to expand...

As I understand it deaths outside hospitals from Covid 19 do not include only those that have been tested. 

These other deaths now included within the daily totals require the Death Certificate to include the virus amongst the likely causes of death.

That being the case the total figure could surely be inflated beyond the actual as the virus may not have been the prime cause.


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2020)

The data interpretations are many and varied, but hampered by a few things. Firstly, it is not necessarily relevant to use countries as denominators. China, for example, is a very populous country, but the outbreak was most concentrated in Wuhan. Is it more meaningful to just include that region or to dilute the figure with all the other areas that never, or have not yet, got cases? Likewise the US. New York is a long way from the Rocky Mountain states. Also, the data reliability is variable./ China data seems to be rather dodgy and uK data may not be much better. The official stats say that about 1/6 of deaths occur in the care sector, but there is much discussion in medical fora to suggest that is a significant underestimate, driven in part by corners unwillingness to allow death certificates to mention Covid unless a positive test is available. But many of these places did not have testing available, so a number of Covd death are being missed. Likewise other community deaths of elderly people who had a very typical history of Covid and went fast despite having no test. I think we will see quite a few death certificates being corrected down the line. 

Patrick Vallance said a few weeks ago that a final total of 20k would be a good result. We have clearly blown through that, probably more like 40k so far, and no immediate sight of stopping, never mind the inevitable increase again when social distancing rules are eased. I don't think anyone can really argue we have done particularly well in the UK, or that we have in any way done better than Spain or Italy. We should have been doing better given the example they were providing for us.


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## Mudball (Apr 30, 2020)

Just a friendly reminder before we all use graphs as the new shiny toy..


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			As I understand it deaths outside hospitals from Covid 19 do not include only those that have been tested.

These other deaths now included within the daily totals require the Death Certificate to include the virus amongst the likely causes of death.

That being the case the total figure could surely be inflated beyond the actual as the virus may not have been the prime cause.
		
Click to expand...

Quite correct imo, unless things changed since earlier, if the doctor writes on the death certificate Covid19 then I understood it was included even if Covid was not necessarily the main cause of death. The graphs also dont show the comparative age of deaths which surely is a factor


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Just a friendly reminder before we all use graphs as the new shiny toy..

View attachment 30336

Click to expand...

What about your predictions, they were pretty damning and based on what?


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## Mudball (Apr 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What about your predictions, they were pretty damning and based on what?
		
Click to expand...


Pl do as i say... not as i do..


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## rudebhoy (Apr 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Quite correct imo, unless things changed since earlier, if the doctor writes on the death certificate Covid19 then I understood it was included even if Covid was not necessarily the main cause of death. The graphs also dont show the comparative age of deaths which surely is a factor
		
Click to expand...

According to the ONS, only 1% of cases had "suspected Covid 19" on the death certificate. Would a doctor writing a death certificate really put down Covid 19 as the cause of death unless they were certain? (i.e. there had been a test)


"Our definition of COVID-19 includes some cases where the certifying doctor suspected the death involved COVID-19 but was not certain, for example, because no test was done. Of the 3,372 deaths with an underlying cause of COVID-19, 38 (1%) were classified as “suspected” COVID-19. Looking at all mentions, “suspected” COVID-19 was recorded on 1% of all deaths involving COVID-19."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../deathsinvolvingcovid19englandandwales/latest


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			According to the ONS, only 1% of cases had "suspected Covid 19" on the death certificate. Would a doctor writing a death certificate really put down Covid 19 as the cause of death unless they were certain? (i.e. there had been a test)


"Our definition of COVID-19 includes some cases where the certifying doctor suspected the death involved COVID-19 but was not certain, for example, because no test was done. Of the 3,372 deaths with an underlying cause of COVID-19, 38 (1%) were classified as “suspected” COVID-19. Looking at all mentions, “suspected” COVID-19 was recorded on 1% of all deaths involving COVID-19."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../deathsinvolvingcovid19englandandwales/latest

Click to expand...

The presentation and clinical features of Covid can be quite distinctive. For example a silent hypoxia where the O2 sat is very low but the patient is not apparently short of breath, and certain X Ray and scan findings.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The presentation and clinical features of Covid can be quite distinctive. For example a silent hypoxia where the O2 sat is very low but the patient is not apparently short of breath, and certain X Ray and scan findings.
		
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Genuine question from a complete layman. Is the above the symptoms more akin to Altitude sickness than pneumonia?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			The reported stats also ignore population density, important when the transmission requires relatively close contact. London for example is about 7 times higher than the average for the rest of the UK.
		
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They are also saying that air pollution is a factor, goes with population density of course.


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Genuine question from a complete layman. Is the above the symptoms more akin to Altitude sickness than pneumonia?
		
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It doesn't look very much like altitude sickness.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They are also saying that air pollution is a factor, goes with population density of course.
		
Click to expand...

Are MENSA members OK then?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2020)

Backache said:



			It doesn't look very much like altitude sickness.
		
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If you are interested, please see post 40 in thread "Debate about ventilators ",, circa page 4.
Some US doctors are of opinion that symptoms suggest the virus behaves more like altitude sickness than pneumonia and suggest CPAPtreatment is better than ventilators. They describe the ability of the chest to work is not impaired as it is in pneumonia. In view of Ethans post , he seems to suggest similar, unless I misunderstand. Hence the question.


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Genuine question from a complete layman. Is the above the symptoms more akin to Altitude sickness than pneumonia?
		
Click to expand...

There is a school of thought to that effect, and it may be one reason why conventional ventilation protocols don't work all that well.

The basic condition has elements of laryngitis and tracheitis, highly sensitive to irritation causing coughing spasms. In some people you also get a lower tract element or pneumonitis with thick mucus which interferes with oxygenation. Altitude sickness has pulmonary oedema (watery fluid) instead of mucus. The hypoxia can be silent, which is unusual. Some people are said to be comfortable at rest but getting bugger all oxygen in. There can also be later complications, around day 7 where an inflammatory condition called ARDS (Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome) occurs. Others get a Cytokine Release Syndrome where some of the products of tussle damage call damage to other organs, liver, kidneys, heart etc. It is a really nasty condition. I only personally know 2 people that have had it and they both survived. Both are Emergency Department doctors. NHS staff seem to be at higher risk, and greater risk of a severe illness through high viral load.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is a school of thought to that effect, and it may be one reason why conventional ventilation protocols don't work all that well.

The basic condition has elements of laryngitis and tracheitis, highly sensitive to irritation causing coughing spasms. In some people you also get a lower tract element or pneumonitis with thick mucus which interferes with oxygenation. Altitude sickness has pulmonary oedema (watery fluid) instead of mucus. The hypoxia can be silent, which is unusual. Some people are said to be comfortable at rest but getting bugger all oxygen in. There can also be later complications, around day 7 where an inflammatory condition called ARDS (Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome) occurs. Others get a Cytokine Release Syndrome where some of the products of tussle damage call damage to other organs, liver, kidneys, heart etc. It is a really nasty condition. I only personally know 2 people that have had it and they both survived. Both are Emergency Department doctors. NHS staff seem to be at higher risk, and greater risk of a severe illness through high viral load.
		
Click to expand...

That's an interesting post. Regarding the high viral load, is this where the initial amount of viral intake creates a potental worse outcome?


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## Mudball (May 1, 2020)

Interesting stats in the middle of this FT article >>  https://www.ft.com/content/1c079f85-2c61-4bd0-a7c6-39356ea6a6eb

Having lost more than 60,000 people, the US accounts for a quarter of the world’s Covid-19 deaths with just 5 per cent of its population. 
America has a third of global infections. 
Forty-two countries have higher per capita rates of testing than the US — some by a considerable multiple. 

So much for MAGA.  ofcourse, thanks to Trump, it is not 2million - same as it is not 500k because of Boris


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## Kellfire (May 1, 2020)

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ely-selling-ppe?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_WhatsApp

This man won’t be popular.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



https://www.theguardian.com/society...ely-selling-ppe?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_WhatsApp

This man won’t be popular.
		
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Is there any truth in the story that Dominic Cumming's brother owns the company that will be supplying the covid19 ap to the government.
Seen a couple of mentions of this.


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is there any truth in the story that Dominic Cumming's brother owns the company that will be supplying the covid19 ap to the government.
Seen a couple of mentions of this.
		
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Not from recollection. If I’m right, it’s the brother of one of Cummings friends/advisors.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Interesting stats in the middle of this FT article >>  https://www.ft.com/content/1c079f85-2c61-4bd0-a7c6-39356ea6a6eb

*Having lost more than 60,000 people, the US accounts for a quarter of the world’s Covid-19 deaths with just 5 per cent of its population.
America has a third of global infections.*
Forty-two countries have higher per capita rates of testing than the US — some by a considerable multiple.

So much for MAGA.  ofcourse, thanks to Trump, it is not 2million - same as it is not 500k because of Boris
		
Click to expand...

I think at the moment the virus has mostly not hit the developing nations, with Africa not having many cases.  Let's hope it stays that way, but there is a big danger if it takes hold in developing nations who through a combination of questionable leadership in some countries and lack of access to the health care and protective equipment than the more developed nations have, it will kill a lot of people.   As for the US I suspect Trump views a certain number of deaths as an acceptable compromise as long as he gets re-elected. And there are a worrying number of US citizens who seem to view any form of lock down as 'unconstitutional'.


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## drdel (May 1, 2020)

In the absence of a medical cure or vaccine there very,very few practical policy options when dealing with a pandemic. 

Firstly the vast majority of all citizens have to accept the change and controls brought to their lives. Secondly, they have to accept their continued application of the controls. In the UK and more so in the USA "Land of the Free" there's a fine balance in maintaining the controls and members of the public just deciding they know what's best for themselves .

We have already seen in the UK that car use is rising because people become complacent and begin to think 'it won't affect me" and the financial hardship kicks in.

The science is well known and this virus is now embedded in society. Fatalities will continue for many more months until treatments and vaccines are found. In the meantime the Government (of whatever political leaning) need to keep people on-side but as the infection rate drops that will get harder and harder as more and more people 'relax'.

It would not surprise me if some controls were actually increased and made more stringent.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			In the absence of a medical cure or vaccine there very,very few practical policy options when dealing with a pandemic.

Firstly the vast majority of all citizens have to accept the change and controls brought to their lives. Secondly, they have to accept their continued application of the controls. In the UK and more so in the USA "Land of the Free" there's a fine balance in maintaining the controls and members of the public just deciding they know what's best for themselves .

We have already seen in the UK that car use is rising because people become complacent and begin to think 'it won't affect me" and the financial hardship kicks in.

The science is well known and this virus is now embedded in society. Fatalities will continue for many more months until treatments and vaccines are found. In the meantime the Government (of whatever political leaning) need to keep people on-side but as the infection rate drops that will get harder and harder as more and more people 'relax'.

It would not surprise me if some controls were actually increased and made more stringent.
		
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Good post, one minor observation, do you not think some of the increase in car use is down to a few more shops being opened, ie B&Q etc, and the advice on driving for exercise being relaxed.


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## drdel (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Good post, one minor observation, do you not think some of the increase in car use is down to a few more shops being opened, ie B&Q etc, and the advice on driving for exercise being relaxed.
		
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I suspect you're right. Its a bit of a chicken and egg. Shops open because people are about and they need to survive : people are about because shops are open so it must be OK. Glad I'm not an 'expert' any more !!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			I suspect you're right. Its a bit of a chicken and egg. Shops open because people are about and they need to survive : people are about because shops are open so it must be OK. Glad I'm not an 'expert' any more !!
		
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Fine line for the Government to walk, unfortunately some in society will always push it too far if given “wiggle” room.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2020)

Gove threatens to use the Isle of Wight as test area for lifting lockdown.
IOW folk say fine by us, so long as you keep the groccles out.
Ferry to run essential services only.


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## chrisd (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Good post, one minor observation, do you not think some of the increase in car use is down to a few more shops being opened, ie B&Q etc, and the advice on driving for exercise being relaxed.
		
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Spot on Paul, I wanted to do a few jobs in the house and popped to B&Q, when I arrived I was about 5th in the queue and when I left there was about 50 people. As I pass B&Q when I go to work it's easy to see that there are hardly any cars in their car park when closed


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Spot on Paul, I wanted to do a few jobs in the house and popped to B&Q, when I arrived I was about 5th in the queue and when I left there was about 50 people. As I pass B&Q when I go to work it's easy to see that there are hardly any cars in their car park when closed
		
Click to expand...

I live 500yds from the coast and I’ve been out on my bike for an hour around the same time every day since the lockdown began week before last there was undoubtably an increase in cars on the road, I put that down to some business’s, schools etc returning after the Easter holidays, this last week it seems to have quitened down a bit, but nowhere near what it was like over the 2 week Easter period.

Whatever measures were taken 95-99% would of followed them.


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gove threatens to use the Isle of Wight as test area for lifting lockdown.
IOW folk say fine by us, so long as you keep the groccles out.
Ferry to run essential services only.
		
Click to expand...

Similar for Spain. The Canaries are starting further through the unlock phases than the mainland. Cuelta, Mielta and one of the Balearics similarly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

If country-to-country comparisons of numbers are not particularly valid due to the different ways that different countries do the counting - what's the point of the comparison graphs we are presented with every day?  Are all comparisons so invalidated - or are some comparisons valid.  I have found them interesting and useful - but if interesting is all they are, are they then potentially misleading?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think at the moment the virus has mostly not hit the developing nations, with Africa not having many cases.  Let's hope it stays that way, but there is a big danger if it takes hold in developing nations who through a combination of questionable leadership in some countries and lack of access to the health care and protective equipment than the more developed nations have, it will kill a lot of people.   As for the US I suspect Trump views a certain number of deaths as an acceptable compromise as long as he gets re-elected. And there are a worrying number of US citizens who seem to view any form of lock down as 'unconstitutional'.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting piece on Newsnight last night on how South Africa has coped with the pandemic.  Some of their success coming down to the fact that it is basically only 'whites' who travel abroad in any significant numbers and when they return to SA they generally do not mix with the black population - the population most at risk due to their housing densities and poverty.

But it seemed to be the case that the SA government applied a very severe lockdown very early on, knowing the terrible risk it posed and poses if it gets into the black and townships population.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If country-to-country comparisons of numbers are not particularly valid due to the different ways that different countries do the counting - *what's the point of the comparison graphs we are presented with every day? * Are all comparisons so invalidated - or are some comparisons valid.  I have found them interesting and useful - but if interesting is all they are, are they then potentially misleading?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure if we had the relative success that South Korea or New Zealand seem to have had up to this point then the comparison graphs would be very relevant in some quarters.   Lies, damn lies and statistics.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Fine line for the Government to walk, unfortunately some in society will always push it too far if given “wiggle” room.
		
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I did the 3minutes drive to my club one evening last week, just to go for a walk.  I was struck that my feelings in driving changed from 'I shouldn't be doing this' on the way there - to on the way back 'well that was no big deal - maybe I can do this a bit more regularly'.  I dismissed the thought pretty quickly as I knew it was not what I should be thinking about doing.  But the thought came up.  And I haven't done it again.

And so were I to drive the six miles to my nearest B&Q I could easy find myself thinking similar thoughts - if I was minded to consider that a visit to B&Q was essential - and it simply isn't.  But many will - and they might also think that it was no big deal and so why not more regularly.  And the traffic volumes builds.  And the containment measures start to fail...


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## ColchesterFC (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If country-to-country comparisons of numbers are not particularly valid due to the different ways that different countries do the counting - what's the point of the comparison graphs we are presented with every day?  Are all comparisons so invalidated - or are some comparisons valid.  I have found them interesting and useful - but if interesting is all they are, are they then potentially misleading?
		
Click to expand...

Straight comparison of the numbers is misleading. For example I'm pretty sure that in Germany it's only those that die due to Covid that are counted and not those who die with Covid. In the UK if a person dies while affected by Covid that is included in our numbers. 

So an 85 year old man who has a heart attack would be counted in the UK as a Covid death if he had the infection but wouldn't be included in German numbers.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gove threatens to use the Isle of Wight as test area for lifting lockdown.
IOW folk say fine by us, so long as you keep the groccles out.
Ferry to run essential services only.
		
Click to expand...

There you go using the word " threaten" .  You don't state the reason there will be some easing there ( either because you don't know, or it doesn't suit your agenda)
It is to test a new app which if successful will enable an easing of lockdown whilst keeping the ability to know quickly what is happening .
They use the island because being an island it is best suited to monitor the apps efficiency.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There you go using the word " threaten" .  You don't state the reason there will be some easing there ( either because you don't know, or it doesn't suit your agenda)
It is to test a new app which if successful will enable an easing of lockdown whilst keeping the ability to know quickly what is happening .
They use the island because being an island it is best suited to monitor the apps efficiency.
		
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According to the Jeremy Vine show the other day the mp for the island asked if they could do the trial there. He saw it as a positive.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If country-to-country comparisons of numbers are not particularly valid due to the different ways that different countries do the counting - what's the point of the comparison graphs we are presented with every day?  Are all comparisons so invalidated - or are some comparisons valid.  I have found them interesting and useful - but if interesting is all they are, are they then potentially misleading?
		
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Well, they are what they are. E.g. Germany says " Here's our figures"
Our government use them. Our government know how meaningful they are if the counting is different ( seems it is). But they can't change/adjust them, for the same reason as 
if they didn't show such a comparative graph, no doubt the journos and others would cry " cover up, not showing how bad you're handling this compared with others...". etc.
So in a strict sense, they could be "misleading", depends on each person to decide if they are maliciously so, and if so, by whom.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Straight comparison of the numbers is misleading. For example I'm pretty sure that in Germany it's only those that die due to Covid that are counted and not those who die with Covid. In the UK if a person dies while affected by Covid that is included in our numbers.

So an 85 year old man who has a heart attack would be counted in the UK as a Covid death if he had the infection but wouldn't be included in German numbers.
		
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But also you could say that Germany always counted deaths in care homes where as we only did recently. I agree you will never get a straight exact like for like comparison, but people should ask if countries apparent success, or lack of, is purely due to these differences in counting and classifying. Or are there other more fundamental underlying factors or approaches that some countries have taken and some haven't that we can learn from, other than classifying the deaths slightly differently. As to me different ways of classifying a death should never be used as a get out clause if there are significant differences in approaches. And the resultant deaths, no matter how they are counted, are significantly different.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I did the 3minutes drive to my club one evening last week, just to go for a walk.  I was struck that my feelings in driving changed from 'I shouldn't be doing this' on the way there - to on the way back 'well that was no big deal - maybe I can do this a bit more regularly'.  I dismissed the thought pretty quickly as I knew it was not what I should be thinking about doing.  But the thought came up.  And I haven't done it again.

And so were I to drive the six miles to my nearest B&Q I could easy find myself thinking similar thoughts - if I was minded to consider that a visit to B&Q was essential - and it simply isn't.  But many will - and they might also think that it was no big deal and so why not more regularly.  And the traffic volumes builds.  And the containment measures start to fail...
		
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True, but I was more thinking the Government clarifying/relaxing the rules on exercise on 20th April:


You are allowed to drive somewhere to take your exercise. The guidance says, ‘it is lawful to drive for exercise.’ However, ‘Driving for a prolonged period with only brief exercise’ is also deemed ‘not likely to be reasonable’. The rule of thumb? You’re allowed to drive somewhere to go for a walk or run as long as you spend much more time walking than you do driving.

Prior to this I believe people doing exercise as a whole, stayed local or did not drive at all.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

Watching the news just beforv5pm, they seem to be saying most important thing is whether Hancock has achieved his target of 100000 tests.
Guarantee:
If he says he has not he'll be slated
If he says he has, he'll be accused of fiddling the figures.

Jeez.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Watching the news just beforv5pm, they seem to be saying most important thing is whether Hancock has achieved his target of 100000 tests.
Guarantee:
If he says he has he'll be slated
If he says he has, he'll be accused of fiddling the figures.

Jeez.
		
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Or ignore the News and decide for yourself, ie, was 100,000 a realistic or ambitious target?

For me going on the testing figures we were getting told it was ambitious, and good on him, I’d rather he was aiming high and putting pressure on himself and the system to step up to that mark.

So if it comes anywhere near, great result, if he gets nowhere near he needs to tell us why and be a bit more realistic.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Watching the news just beforv5pm, they seem to be saying most important thing is whether Hancock has achieved his target of 100000 tests.
Guarantee:
If he says he has not he'll be slated
If he says he has, he'll be accused of fiddling the figures.

Jeez.
		
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I'm assuming as he's doing it they have.  And fair play, it seems that testing is a huge part of getting this under control so let's keep it up.  Would have been nice if we'd have got to this point earlier, but we are where we are.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Or ignore the News and decide for yourself, ie, was 100,000 a realistic or ambitious target?

For me going on the testing figures we were getting told it was ambitious, and good on him, I’d rather he was aiming high and putting pressure on himself and the system to step up to that mark.

So if it comes anywhere near, great result, if he gets nowhere near he needs to tell us why and be a bit more realistic.
		
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Smashed it, now let’s keep it going upwards.


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## rudebhoy (May 1, 2020)

122k tests yesterday. Well done.

The real test now is to achieve that kind of level on an ongoing basis.


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## Imurg (May 1, 2020)

Piers Morgan is going to be pissed off......


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Smashed it, now let’s keep it going upwards.

Click to expand...

Our testing center is shutting down Monday evening so it will be back to 2 hr round trip. Mind you, I had to go there last night to pick up kits to deliver testing kits to a couple of care homes and the lads said they weren't that busy.


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

As Hancock was expected to be castigated on not achieving his testing target and many were suggesting only a very short time ago that the numbers were unachievable he deserves a great deal of credit for pulling out the stops.  There have indeed been some very good initiatives and achievements like the Nightingales and numbers of ventilators.


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## rudebhoy (May 1, 2020)

So, it turns out that the 122k includes 27,000 home test kits which were posted out yesterday and 7000 kits which were sent to NHS satellite centres yesterday. So they are not actually tests which have been carried out.

Why do they need to be so disingenuous? If they had just said the testing figure for yesterday was 88k,I'm sure most people would have recognised that as a good result considering where we were a week ago.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

OK, OK, cynic time, happy to praise his effort as previously stated, but that questioning on numbers left me with an uneasy feeling.

I’ve always believed the 100k target would be actual tests, ie those with a result, the breakdown of the 122,347 was not that straightforward, only 81,978 had actually reached a Lab, the other 40,369 were only posted out to homes yesterday or sent to satellite testing stations.

Got to be honest, still a great effort, but leaves a bit of sour taste tbh.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So, it turns out that the 122k includes 27,000 home test kits which were posted out yesterday and 7000 kits which were sent to NHS satellite centres yesterday. So they are not actually tests which have been carried out.

Why do they need to be so disingenuous? If they had just said the testing figure for yesterday was 88k,I'm sure most people would have recognised that as a good result considering where we were a week ago.
		
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Many centers (if ours was anything to go by) weren't fully used which was strange as the requirement was based on how many key workers were off self isolating in the area


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So, it turns out that the 122k includes 27,000 home test kits which were posted out yesterday and 7000 kits which were sent to NHS satellite centres yesterday. So they are not actually tests which have been carried out.

Why do they need to be so disingenuous? If they had just said the testing figure for yesterday was 88k,I'm sure most people would have recognised that as a good result considering where we were a week ago.
		
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It’s a good point to be fair. I would have been more than happy to congratulate him/them if they’d reached 80-90k tests per day. Now I feel like they’re spinning the numbers for the sake of it. Oh well, I suppose some will say that he couldn’t win either way. No reason to move the goalposts though.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It’s a good point to be fair. I would have been more than happy to congratulate him/them if they’d reached 80-90k tests per day. Now I feel like they’re spinning the numbers for the sake of it. Oh well, I suppose some will say that he couldn’t win either way. No reason to move the goalposts though.
		
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It seems that the goalpost weren't moved, just the rules for scoring the goal was never explained and counts were always done this way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It seems that the goalpost weren't moved, just the rules for scoring the goal was never explained and counts were always done this way.
		
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Surely you can’t count “those posted” until you get them back or you can blame Royal Mail.


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It seems that the goalpost weren't moved, just the rules for scoring the goal was never explained and counts were always done this way.
		
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According to “Reality Check” (which I hope isn’t just the Labour Party pretending to be an independent fact checking body 😂), the definition was changed on the 27th and 29th of April to include just posted home checks and tests sent to satellite centres!

Edit... Well done to the Government for getting the numbers as high as they did though 👍


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely you can’t count “those posted” until you get them back or you can blame Royal Mail.

Click to expand...

The scientist responsible for testing just said said that's how the count was always done so they are doing like with like, I'm not blaming anyone or bothered either way. I'm more disappointed that demand hasn't met supply over the last week. Seeing members of the armed forces at three test centers twiddling their fingure was disheartening for all concerned.


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## pendodave (May 1, 2020)

Can't help feeling they'd have been better saying that tests were made available but demand amongst those eligible wasn't sufficient to get the number up to the 100k.
It reflects badly on Hancock for me. Papering the house (look it up) to achieve a randomly made up (by him) target,rather than having an adult discussion about the (good) progress which has been made and how it is to be built upon.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			According to “Reality Check” (which I hope isn’t just the Labour Party pretending to be an independent fact checking body 😂), the definition was changed on the 27th and 29th of April to include just posted home checks and tests sent to satellite centres!

Edit... Well done to the Government for getting the numbers as high as they did though 👍
		
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Reality check calling the head honcho a liar, be interesting to see how that plays out.


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Reality check calling the head honcho a liar, be interesting to see how that plays out.
		
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I’m certainly interested in the truth as well. Seems a strange thing to disagree on when it would appear easy to find out the truth 🧐


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m certainly interested in the truth as well. Seems a strange thing to disagree on when it would appear easy to find out the truth 🧐
	View attachment 30361

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Mind you, as it doesn't know when the last day of the month is, it could be a bit flakey


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Mind you, as it doesn't know when the last day of the month is, it could be a bit flakey 

Click to expand...

Hadn’t seen that 😂😂😂
Maybe it may the last day they can get figures for? Or they’re just idiots 😉


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The scientist responsible for testing just said said that's how the count was always done so they are doing like with like, I'm not blaming anyone or bothered either way. I'm more disappointed that demand hasn't met supply over the last week. Seeing members of the armed forces at three test centers twiddling their fingure was disheartening for all concerned.
		
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Like I said mate, still a great effort, but what I find frustrating is it leaves themselves open to questions they and we could do with out.


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Like I said mate, still a great effort, but what I find frustrating is it leaves themselves open to questions they and we could do with out.
		
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It’s an awkward situation. Fair to say that Hancock just couldn’t win. But my experience tells me that when you’re in a no win situation, don’t play the game. Straight bat and be honest. You can’t trip someone up if they’re telling the truth.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It’s an awkward situation. Fair to say that Hancock just couldn’t win. But my experience tells me that when you’re in a no win situation, don’t play the game. Straight bat and be honest. You can’t trip someone up if they’re telling the truth.
		
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Yep, even to have started with the 88k plus X plus Y would of come across better.

I can imagine everytime they discuss testing figures the first question is going to be “How many are in the post?”


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## pendodave (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The scientist responsible for testing just said said that's how the count was always done so they are doing like with like, I'm not blaming anyone or bothered either way. I'm more disappointed that demand hasn't met supply over the last week. Seeing members of the armed forces at three test centers twiddling their fingure was disheartening for all concerned.
		
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Please understand this is not actually a party political point.
I think it's quite heartening that demand hasn't met supply, rather like the overflow hospitals not being used.
To me it means that although a pretty large group of people, and their families, has been given the opportunity to get tested it they feel ill, they haven't because they're not actually ill. Long may it continue.


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It’s an awkward situation. Fair to say that Hancock just couldn’t win. But my experience tells me that when you’re in a no win situation, don’t play the game. Straight bat and be honest. You can’t trip someone up if they’re telling the truth.
		
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I think the criticism isnt really fair.  Is a test included when someone goes to a test centre and gets swabbed or is it when the results come back, I think its number of tests as opposed to number of results.


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## bluewolf (May 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the criticism isnt really fair.  Is a test included when someone goes to a test centre and gets swabbed or is it when the results come back, I think its number of tests as opposed to number of results.
		
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But then you could just mail out every test you have and claim a huge victory on one day. I’d genuinely have preferred Paul’s option above. It’s an unnecessary talking point that tarnished a fantastic achievement.


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So, it turns out that the 122k includes 27,000 home test kits which were posted out yesterday and 7000 kits which were sent to NHS satellite centres yesterday. So they are not actually tests which have been carried out.

Why do they need to be so disingenuous? If they had just said the testing figure for yesterday was 88k,I'm sure most people would have recognised that as a good result considering where we were a week ago.
		
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I dont think you would, you are too dyed in the wool anti Tory to give them credit for anything.  Be honest?


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## Imurg (May 1, 2020)

So Pierced Organ is going to be happy then......


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

Best quote of the whole period:

: "We didn't ask who we could blame, we asked how we could fix it" Mr Hancock 1 May 2020


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But then you could just mail out every test you have and claim a huge victory on one day. I’d genuinely have preferred Paul’s option above. It’s an unnecessary talking point that tarnished a fantastic achievement.
		
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Yes I guess so, especially if you are looking for a reason to tarnish it.  Again, for me its tests or even tests available that count here, not the test results.


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## ColchesterFC (May 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the criticism isnt really fair.  Is a test included when someone goes to a test centre and gets swabbed or is it when the results come back, I think its number of tests as opposed to number of results.
		
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That's an interesting point. In the early days when they were only testing people admitted to hospital were the numbers based on the number of people that had been tested that day or the number of lab results that had been returned?


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Best quote of the whole period:

: "We didn't ask who we could blame, we asked how we could fix it" Mr Hancock 1 May 2020
		
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I missed the conference today but one of the 1st agenda items we have in any governors meetings is to ask if anyone has any vested interests that they need to declare that will influence what they say later on in the meeting.  Just wondering if Matt Hancock declared any interests on apportioning any blame before this statement today?  If not then no worries, we can pick it up before the Daily telegraph approves the minutes on the front page tomorrow.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's an interesting point. In the early days when they were only testing people admitted to hospital were the numbers based on the number of people that had been tested that day or the number of lab results that had been returned?
		
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Number in the Lab, they didn’t include the amount of test kits available in the hospital for each ward, just those kits that had been actually used to carry out a test.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Well a very poor day for the government. When they should have been getting credit for getting close to achieving a challenging "stretch" target they have demonstrated that political spin is more important to them than actual outcomes. Why can't they just be honest and give us some sort of credible leadership to get behind?
		
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It was a scientist who gave the figures


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So, it turns out that the 122k includes 27,000 home test kits which were posted out yesterday and 7000 kits which were sent to NHS satellite centres yesterday. So they are not actually tests which have been carried out.

Why do they need to be so disingenuous? If they had just said the testing figure for yesterday was 88k,I'm sure most people would have recognised that as a good result considering where we were a week ago.
		
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Classic 'political spin'! And, in this case, far too easily called as 'dishonest' by the media. But will they?!

I wouldn't be surprised if even the 88k figure was 'manipulated'! But a great achievement all the same!

However, 'both sides' do it! The 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics' quote springs to mind far too often these days!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It was a scientist who gave the figures
		
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Pedant Alert time:
Hancock announced the overall figure, the scientist gave the breakdown.

Hancock: 'We have met our goal'
https://news.sky.com/video/share-11981904


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## Foxholer (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It was a scientist who gave the figures
		
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It was a politician who 'interpreted' them!


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## ColchesterFC (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Number in the Lab, they didn’t include the amount of test kits available in the hospital for each ward, just those kits that had been actually used to carry out a test.
		
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Cheers for that. I'm assuming that means there's a lag in the number of tests each day as not all the tests will reach the lab on the same day they were taken? I'm assuming that these testing centres aren't just 9 to 5 so someone getting tested at 9pm is unlikely to be included in that days' figures by the time the test gets to the lab.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It was a politician who 'interpreted' them!
		
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Was it


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers for that. I'm assuming that means there's a lag in the number of tests each day as not all the tests will reach the lab on the same day they were taken? I'm assuming that these testing centres aren't just 9 to 5 so someone getting tested at 9pm is unlikely to be included in that days' figures by the time the test gets to the lab.
		
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Not sure were the test centres send their kits mate.
But going by today and the update this week the testing kits sent to the centres on a daily basis will count whether they’ve been used or not.


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## drdel (May 1, 2020)

The Government target was to achieve the *capability* of 100K tests. There is no way they could set a target of 'completed tests' because that is entirely dependent on the demand which is not within their control.

The UK now has the ability to conduct 100k tests which is a agreat achievement in the timescale. If we never need to use the facility that would be great, however an instrinsic part of moving out of the social controls is the ability to monitor and to finely target geographic areas of infection.


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## Imurg (May 1, 2020)

I'm struggling to understand something...
Deaths in care homes are going through the roof so to speak...
If there is a downward trend of hospitalizations and capacity in ICUs....
Why are these people not being carted into the ICUs as soon as it becomes apparent that they need the treatment..?
Or am I missing something..?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			The Government target was to achieve the *capability* of 100K tests. There is no way they could set a target of 'completed tests' because that is entirely dependent on the demand which is not within their control.

The UK now has the ability to conduct 100k tests which is a agreat achievement in the timescale. If we never need to use the facility that would be great, however an instrinsic part of moving out of the social controls is the ability to monitor and to finely target geographic areas of infection.
		
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Not sure I see the word *capability* here?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246710511053475840


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## pendodave (May 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I'm struggling to understand something...
Deaths in care homes are going through the roof so to speak...
If there is a downward trend of hospitalizations and capacity in ICUs....
Why are these people not being carted into the ICUs as soon as it becomes apparent that they need the treatment..?
Or am I missing something..?
		
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I'm not a doctor but.... Many people in care homes are very old and not well. I suspect the chances of them surviving the move to a hospital and the intensive treatment required are pretty slim.
I think this makes sense, but perfectly willing to hear a better theory.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure I see the word *capability* here?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246710511053475840

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The tweet was supposed to be interpreted based on your voting intentions. Some may see the word capability, some may see a definitive promise, who can say what the truth is.


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## ColchesterFC (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure were the test centres send their kits mate.
But going by today and the update this week the testing kits sent to the centres on a daily basis will count whether they’ve been used or not.
		
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In which case that's a very poor manipulation of the figures - imo. I'm sure that if they'd come out and said we set ourselves an ambitious target of 100k tests a day by the end of April and we carried out 88k tests yesterday. In addition we have sent out X thousand home testing kits and supplied X thousand of extra kits to testing stations, bringing the total to 122k. Most people would have accepted that and possibly even praised the efforts that had gone in to it. Unfortunately the government, and Matt Hancock in particular, have left themselves open to accusations of of giving misleading figures or outright lying.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I'm struggling to understand something...
Deaths in care homes are going through the roof so to speak...
If there is a downward trend of hospitalizations and capacity in ICUs....
Why are these people not being carted into the ICUs as soon as it becomes apparent that they need the treatment..?
Or am I missing something..?
		
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I’m not sure of todays figure from Public Health England (PHE) for Covid-19 deaths outside of hospital or what the breakdown of what day they “actually” died.
The chart below (hopefully it will enlarge) gives the daily figures but only 2 totals from PHE.
A lot of the deaths now being reported from care homes could be historical.


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## ColchesterFC (May 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure I see the word *capability* here?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246710511053475840

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That's just your political bias showing through Paul. If you get a microscope you'll find that the words "have the capability to" written in 0.0001 size text between the words "We'll" and "test".


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 1, 2020)

Covid 19 strategy in the US is divided, like everything else, almost perfectly on ideological lines.

Progressive liberals want to be cautious with the pandemic and just print money until there's a vaccination.  Interest rates are almost non-existent so now is a good time to do it.  It worked for WWII.

Conservatives have suddenly found a new affinity for Sweden that they never would have dreamed of having before.  They say, body bags be damned, full-speed ahead.

I can't see how the "red" and "blue" states can possibly survive under one government anymore.
What were once political opponents are now full-fledged ideological enemies.  Republicans and Democrats working in unity is Pollyanna's pipe dream.  
Our Civil War was a "misunderstanding" compared to where we are now.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 1, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			In which case that's a very poor manipulation of the figures - imo. I'm sure that if they'd come out and said we set ourselves an ambitious target of 100k tests a day by the end of April and we carried out 88k tests yesterday. In addition we have sent out X thousand home testing kits and supplied X thousand of extra kits to testing stations, bringing the total to 122k. Most people would have accepted that and possibly even praised the efforts that had gone in to it. Unfortunately the government, and Matt Hancock in particular, have left themselves open to accusations of of giving misleading figures or outright lying.
		
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To be fair mate, I firmly believe 88K is an oustanding effort and as posted previously I applaud them/him going for an ambitious target.
But yes, the figures will be scrutinised to the Nth degree.


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## AmandaJR (May 1, 2020)

He couldn't win and however the numbers were calculated there would be criticism. It is what it is sadly.

Not sure how and when you'd actually include posted tests? Log all those out and back in and go from there? Why bother. If someone requests a test and doesn't use it then let it go. There's enough to be going on with without adding that workload.

I think the postal tests have really been ramped up this past week which coincides with the end of the month and the target.

Whatever anyone says - 88000 would be slaughtered as not meeting the target.

Spin? Probably. Why? Well that's pretty clear.

Makes me sad.


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## patricks148 (May 1, 2020)

tories cooking the books and manipulating the testing figures..... who'd have thought it


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## pendodave (May 1, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Covid 19 strategy in the US is divided, like everything else, almost perfectly on ideological lines.

Progressive liberals want to be cautious with the pandemic and just print money until there's a vaccination.  Interest rates are almost non-existent so now is a good time to do it.  It worked for WWII.

Conservatives have suddenly found a new affinity for Sweden that they never would have dreamed of having before.  They say, body bags be damned, full-speed ahead.

I can't see how the "red" and "blue" states can possibly survive under one government anymore.
What were once political opponents are now full-fledged ideological enemies.  Republicans and Democrats working in unity is Pollyanna's pipe dream.  
Our Civil War was a "misunderstanding" compared to where we are now.
		
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This is a thoughtful post.
Where does it end? Could the coastal States form an alliance between the state and federal level? Would that be constitutional?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It was a politician who 'interpreted' them!
		
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It was the politician who asked the scientist to give the breakdown of the figures after the politician was asked...typical politician


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			He couldn't win and however the numbers were calculated there would be criticism. It is what it is sadly.

Not sure how and when you'd actually include posted tests? Log all those out and back in and go from there? Why bother. If someone requests a test and doesn't use it then let it go. There's enough to be going on with without adding that workload.

I think the postal tests have really been ramped up this past week which coincides with the end of the month and the target.

Whatever anyone says - 88000 would be slaughtered as not meeting the target.

Spin? Probably. Why? Well that's pretty clear.

Makes me sad.
		
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I agree. It is sad the way some are salivating for a pound of flesh, it is a very sad state of affairs but unfortunatly something we see more of these days. If the numbers had been 990,000 the cry of 'Liars' would be ringing along with feelings of schadenfreude.


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was the politician who asked the scientist to give the breakdown of the figures after the politician was asked...typical politician 

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Is that not why they have the experts there.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			The Government target was to achieve the *capability* of 100K tests. There is no way they could set a target of 'completed tests' because that is entirely dependent on the demand which is not within their control.

The UK now has the ability to conduct 100k tests which is a agreat achievement in the timescale. If we never need to use the facility that would be great, however an instrinsic part of moving out of the social controls is the ability to monitor and to finely target geographic areas of infection.
		
Click to expand...

No it wasn't. Please stop making things up. They were quite clear the target was to test 100,000 people a day.


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## Wolf (May 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was the politician who asked the scientist to give the breakdown of the figures after the politician was asked...typical politician 

Click to expand...

And if the politician had answered you'd be the first to ask why the scientist didn't have an input considering it's the scientist who would be carrying out the results and compiling the numbers 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			No it wasn't. Please stop making things up. They were quite clear the target was to test 100,000 people a day.
		
Click to expand...

Now you are making things up. If you want to be “quite clear” enter Matt Hancock 100,000 into the search bar in YouTube. You will hear him say that the target is 100,000 but he doesn’t say “tested” or “capability.” And that is his only wriggle room.

Personally, I took it to mean tested but that’s not what was said.

It was fairly clear, as we went through April that 100,000 tested wasn’t going to be met. The capacity was there by late April but how many times did the news programmes show empty test centres? You can’t blame the govt if people are too lazy to travel to a test centre.


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## chrisd (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Now you are making things up. If you want to be “quite clear” enter Matt Hancock 100,000 into the search bar in YouTube. You will hear him say that the target is 100,000 but he doesn’t say “tested” or “capability.” And that is his only wriggle room.

Personally, I took it to mean tested but that’s not what was said.

It was fairly clear, as we went through April that 100,000 tested wasn’t going to be met. The capacity was there by late April but how many times did the news programmes show empty test centres? You can’t blame the govt if people are too lazy to travel to a test centre.
		
Click to expand...

As I listened to the numbers, but haven't rechecked, even if you take away the posted tests, it was still a huge ramp up of test on the day.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Now you are making things up. If you want to be “quite clear” enter Matt Hancock 100,000 into the search bar in YouTube. You will hear him say that the target is 100,000 but he doesn’t say “tested” or “capability.” And that is his only wriggle room.

Personally, I took it to mean tested but that’s not what was said.

It was fairly clear, as we went through April that 100,000 tested wasn’t going to be met. The capacity was there by late April but how many times did the news programmes show empty test centres? You can’t blame the govt if people are too lazy to travel to a test centre.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry, you are wrong.

From Hancock's press release on 2nd April 

Press release
Health Secretary sets out plan to carry out 100,000 coronavirus tests a day

The UK will carry out 100,000 tests for coronavirus every day by the end of this month, Health Secretary Matt Hancock pledged today.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...n-to-carry-out-100000-coronavirus-tests-a-day


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Sorry, you are wrong.

From Hancock's press release on 2nd April

Press release
Health Secretary sets out plan to carry out 100,000 coronavirus tests a day

The UK will carry out 100,000 tests for coronavirus every day by the end of this month, Health Secretary Matt Hancock pledged today.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...n-to-carry-out-100000-coronavirus-tests-a-day

Click to expand...

Listen to the daily brief, 2nd April. You get it from the horse's mouth. You get what he actually said, not what some Civil Servant put out on the Gov.uk site.


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			As I listened to the numbers, but haven't rechecked, even if you take away the posted tests, it was still a huge ramp up of test on the day.
		
Click to expand...

Its disappointing Chris. Its clear the govt have been creative in an attempt to dodge around the 100k number. For me, the easy out for them would have been to say the capacity is there but people are just not using the facilities. But no, they just look like the kid with his hand in the cookie jar.


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## bluewolf (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Listen to the daily brief, 2nd April. You get it from the horse's mouth. You get what he actually said, not what some Civil Servant put out on the Gov.uk site.
		
Click to expand...

I think that you probably agree that you’re knitting fog there Bri. I’ve just watched the brief in question several times. “We are now setting the goal of 100,000 tests per day”. I suppose that if I was so motivated I could spin that either way. 

Anyway, I can’t spend all day on here discussing this. I’m sleeping with 3 supermodels today. I’ve sent the begging tweets, so it’s in the bag really 😂


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Listen to the daily brief, 2nd April. You get it from the horse's mouth. You get what he actually said, not what some Civil Servant put out on the Gov.uk site.
		
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Come off it. It's a government press release from his department, don't you think he checks them (or has them double checked) before release? It is explicit, both in the title and the body of the press release, that the target is to carry out 100,000 tests.

The press release was widely quoted in the media. Don't you think if it was so spectacularly wrong, it would have been subsequently corrected?


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think that you probably agree that you’re knitting fog there Bri. I’ve just watched the brief in question several times. “We are now setting the goal of 100,000 tests per day”. I suppose that if I was so motivated I could spin that either way.

Anyway, I can’t spend all day on here discussing this. I’m sleeping with 3 supermodels today. I’ve sent the begging tweets, so it’s in the bag really 😂
		
Click to expand...

Is your target to actually sleep with 3 of them, or just to have the capability?


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## bluewolf (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Is your target to actually sleep with 3 of them, or just to have the capability?
		
Click to expand...

I’ll tell you tonight when I report back 👍


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## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2020)

Still the sobering fact is that even if the government had managed to reach 100,000 tests a month it will still take 700 weeks to test every UK citizen once.


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Was it
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely.


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you have any proof people are too lazy to travel to a test centre?

Plenty of stories of test centres being nowhere near the people who need them?

Staff in Carlisle needing to do a 200 mile round journey to be tested.

No transport links, reduce bus services, people who don’t have a driving license, people on shift refused time off to go during the day as test centre closed when they are off shift, etc etc
		
Click to expand...

Aren't you just looking for excuses though?

Lazy might, in many cases, be the wrong word.

If someone said to you there's a test centre in Sunderland you wouldn't give it a second thought, but if they said its in Birmingham you most certainly would give it a second thought.

The distance thing is subjective. When working I wouldn't bat an eyelid at driving 100 miles to a job and a 100 miles back. My aunt won't drive 15 miles into Middlesbrough because its too far.

And that's where it becomes a personal thing, to me sitting in a car for 2 hours is a trip just around the corner.


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## bluewolf (May 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Still the sobering fact is that even if the government had managed to reach 100,000 tests a month it will still take 700 weeks to test every UK citizen once. 

Click to expand...

You might want to check this. 😂😉👍


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Come off it. It's a government press release from his department, don't you think he checks them (or has them double checked) before release? It is explicit, both in the title and the body of the press release, that the target is to carry out 100,000 tests.

The press release was widely quoted in the media. Don't you think if it was so spectacularly wrong, it would have been subsequently corrected?
		
Click to expand...

Do I think he checks them? Quite simply, no. Why doesn't he? I tell you what my days were like prior to retirement.

On any given day I'd speak to the Workshop Manager, the Service Manager, the Operations Manager and, maybe, the Service Director. I'd speak to the Admin Manager and, maybe, the Admin Director. I'd speak to the HR Manager and, maybe, the HR Director. I'd speak to the Sales Manager and, maybe, the Sales Director. The Marketing Manager and maybe, the Marketing Director. The Finance Manager and, maybe, the Finance Director. The Training Manager and the Warehouse Manager and.... Then there's my own work and maybe the odd call with the MD.

If there was an issue I'd call in the relevant Managers, which would include the Marketing Manager for a press release. The Marketing Director would sign off the release, and 99% of the time I wouldn't see it. You don't employ people and then do the job yourself.

Do I think they'd issue a correction? That would look like backtracking on the commitment given on the Gov.uk page.

As I said in post 664, I think he did mean 100k tested but that isn't what he said in that daily brief. If you want to believe otherwise, crack on.


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not looking for excuses at all, we both agree the Government handling of the figures was a disaster and overshadowed the positivites, you’re the first person I’ve seen possibly shifting some of the responsibility for not reaching the 100k target on to people being lazy or not bothered etc.
		
Click to expand...

 If they were that bothered they would have found the time. I appreciate that for some it just wasn't doable but I do believe that for some it was a case of not bothered enough, and if that equates to lazy, then yes that is what I'm saying.


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## Mudball (May 2, 2020)

It would not be right if we did not get a view from Piers


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## chrisd (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Do I think he checks them? Quite simply, no. Why doesn't he? I tell you what my days were like prior to retirement.

On any given day I'd speak to the Workshop Manager, the Service Manager, the Operations Manager and, maybe, the Service Director. I'd speak to the Admin Manager and, maybe, the Admin Director. I'd speak to the HR Manager and, maybe, the HR Director. I'd speak to the Sales Manager and, maybe, the Sales Director. The Marketing Manager and maybe, the Marketing Director. The Finance Manager and, maybe, the Finance Director. The Training Manager and the Warehouse Manager and.... Then there's my own work and maybe the odd call with the MD.

If there was an issue I'd call in the relevant Managers, which would include the Marketing Manager for a press release. The Marketing Director would sign off the release, and 99% of the time I wouldn't see it. You don't employ people and then do the job yourself.

Do I think they'd issue a correction? That would look like backtracking on the commitment given on the Gov.uk page.

As I said in post 664, I think he did mean 100k tested but that isn't what he said in that daily brief. If you want to believe otherwise, crack on.
		
Click to expand...

 You could also have stuck a broom up your arse and swept the floor too as you walked round Brian??


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## Beezerk (May 2, 2020)

Breaking news, government manage to get huge raise in cv19 testing capability yet some people are still not satisfied 😎


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## patricks148 (May 2, 2020)

the target was a big ask, they did manage to increase testing, but why the need to fiddle the numbers, why not just admit they were overstretched.

these examples, which are not uncommon are the reason many will never trust the tories, if they can fiddle this why not other things, all Gov should be held to account no matter what side of the political div


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Do I think he checks them? Quite simply, no. Why doesn't he? I tell you what my days were like prior to retirement.

On any given day I'd speak to the Workshop Manager, the Service Manager, the Operations Manager and, maybe, the Service Director. I'd speak to the Admin Manager and, maybe, the Admin Director. I'd speak to the HR Manager and, maybe, the HR Director. I'd speak to the Sales Manager and, maybe, the Sales Director. The Marketing Manager and maybe, the Marketing Director. The Finance Manager and, maybe, the Finance Director. The Training Manager and the Warehouse Manager and.... Then there's my own work and maybe the odd call with the MD.

If there was an issue I'd call in the relevant Managers, which would include the Marketing Manager for a press release. The Marketing Director would sign off the release, and 99% of the time I wouldn't see it. You don't employ people and then do the job yourself.

Do I think they'd issue a correction? That would look like backtracking on the commitment given on the Gov.uk page.

As I said in post 664, I think he did mean 100k tested but that isn't what he said in that daily brief. If you want to believe otherwise, crack on.
		
Click to expand...



see you ignored the bit where I said "or has them double checked"

I would imagine high profile press releases like this one would be carefully checked and double checked. 

will all due respect, I doubt the press releases your marketing manager was sending out were as important or as high profile as this one


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			It would not be right if we did not get a view from Piers

View attachment 30375

Click to expand...


I don't like Morgan, but at least he has had the guts to ask difficult questions. 

here's the same 73k figure from a slightly more respected source

*Latest coronavirus news as of 6 pm on 1 May*
*UK government hits 100,000 daily tests target by including unanalysed tests*
UK health secretary Matt Hancock said that the government carried out 122,347 coronavirus tests yesterday, hitting his target of performing 100,000 daily coronavirus tests by the end of April. However, according to _Health Service Journal_, the government changed the count to include tests that haven’t yet been taken or analysed. As many as 52,000 of the tests which the government said happened on 30 April were merely sent out by post.
According to the government’s own numbers, the actual number of people who were tested yesterday was 73,191. The government states that the 122,347 figure includes tests processed through government laboratories, plus tests sent to satellite labs or posted to individuals.


Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-by-including-unanalysed-tests/#ixzz6LGyJV8Oj


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## bluewolf (May 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the target was a big ask, they did manage to increase testing, but why the need to fiddle the numbers, why not just admit they were overstretched.

these examples, which are not uncommon are the reason many will never trust the tories, if they can fiddle this why not other things, all Gov should be held to account no matter what side of the political div
		
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree with this, except where it singles out the Tories. I strongly suspect that a Labour government would’ve done the same thing. I can state, hand on heart, that I’d still have disagreed with it. 
The utter tribalism of modern politics is a scourge of society, and even a cursory look at this thread shows just how prevalent it is. 

this whole discussion should’ve been over in 20 minutes. Everyone would agree that the significant rise in testing was impressive. Everyone would agree that the subsequent spin on the numbers was unnecessary and unimpressive. Everyone would move on.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I don’t disagree with this, except where it singles out the Tories. I strongly suspect that a Labour government would’ve done the same thing. I can state, hand on heart, that I’d still have disagreed with it.
The utter tribalism of modern politics is a scourge of society, and even a cursory look at this thread shows just how prevalent it is.

this whole discussion should’ve been over in 20 minutes. Everyone would agree that the significant rise in testing was impressive. Everyone would agree that the subsequent spin on the numbers was unnecessary and unimpressive. Everyone would move on.
		
Click to expand...

spot on.


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

We've built a new stadium with a capacity for 100,000.  No you haven't, only 80,000 turned up.


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			spot on.
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣


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## Swinglowandslow (May 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the target was a big ask, they did manage to increase testing, but why the need to fiddle the numbers, why not just admit they were overstretched.

these examples, which are not uncommon are the reason many will never trust the tories, if they can fiddle this why not other things, all Gov should be held to account no matter what side of the political div
		
Click to expand...

I agree that he should have said that " we managed to test xxxx amount, and we didn't physically test 100,000. ."
He should then have gone on to explain about the postal testing initiative and emphasised the reason for the 100,000 target- to motivate, etc.
But then , if I were in him giving this explanation, I would have gone on to say that no doubt there will be some  of you baying on that we have failed, that we lied, and that I should consider my position . Just in order to make political mischief.
Well,it won't happen. I am staying as long as the PM wants me.
We have done well to test what we have, those test numbers will be able to increase. There is a lot more being done by my team  and I , and we are going to get on with it.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Breaking news, government manage to get huge raise in cv19 testing capability yet some people are still not satisfied 😎
		
Click to expand...

if you look back, you will see that everyone has said that getting to 88k (or 73k, whichever it is) was a great effort and they deserved credit for that. It's the manipulating the figures to get to 122k that people are not happy about.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 2, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I don’t disagree with this, except where it singles out the Tories. *I strongly suspect that a Labour government would’ve done the same thing. I can state, hand on heart, that I’d still have disagreed with it.*
The utter tribalism of modern politics is a scourge of society, and even a cursory look at this thread shows just how prevalent it is.

this whole discussion should’ve been over in 20 minutes. Everyone would agree that the significant rise in testing was impressive. Everyone would agree that the subsequent spin on the numbers was unnecessary and unimpressive. Everyone would move on.
		
Click to expand...

Nobody on the right actually believes your comment in bold.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			if you look back, you will see that everyone has said that getting to 88k (or 73k, whichever it is) was a great effort and they deserved credit for that. It's the manipulating the figures to get to 122k that people are not happy about.
		
Click to expand...

That doesn’t suit the narrative of tory good everyone else bad.


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody on the right actually believes your comment in bold.

Click to expand...

You just proved his point.


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That doesn’t suit the narrative of tory good everyone else bad.
		
Click to expand...

And again.


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## bluewolf (May 2, 2020)

an excellent cartoon. Posted without prejudice......


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## AmandaJR (May 2, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I don’t disagree with this, except where it singles out the Tories. I strongly suspect that a Labour government would’ve done the same thing. I can state, hand on heart, that I’d still have disagreed with it.
The utter tribalism of modern politics is a scourge of society, and even a cursory look at this thread shows just how prevalent it is.

this whole discussion should’ve been over in 20 minutes. Everyone would agree that the significant rise in testing was impressive. Everyone would agree that the subsequent spin on the numbers was unnecessary and unimpressive. Everyone would move on.
		
Click to expand...

That is what makes me sad. The world is a mad place and sometimes I just want to get off.


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## drdel (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			No it wasn't. Please stop making things up. They were quite clear the target was to test 100,000 people a day.
		
Click to expand...

I do hope you're enjoying your dance on a pinhead.


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## drdel (May 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			It would not be right if we did not get a view from Piers

View attachment 30375

Click to expand...

When we use Morgan as a source then all hope of rationality has gone.


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## AmandaJR (May 2, 2020)

Whatever the whys and wherefores in this whole thing a statement this morning summed it up "a test isn't a test until it's in a Lab". Which reminded me of this (to lighten the mood). I think the government need to be brave and provide stats based upon facts and not to avoid criticism. To make clear targets and accept they won't always be met - no harm in aiming high. That won't happen though as politics is messed up.


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## drdel (May 2, 2020)

I see the  British multi-millionaire Monaco resident head of Jota Airways is planning a crowd funding case against the Government for imposing the so called 'lock down' as it is against the human rights.


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the  British multi-millionaire Monaco resident head of Jota Airways is planning a crowd funding case against the Government for imposing the so called 'lock down' as it is against the human rights.
		
Click to expand...

The two main opposition parties here in Spain, one being part of the coalition govt, have threatened the same if Sánchez doesn’t bend more with the unlockdown.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			I do hope you're enjoying your dance on a pinhead.
		
Click to expand...

No idea what that is meant to mean. 

You are the one who said "The Government target was to achieve the *capability* of 100K tests." Why don't you just admit you were wrong?


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			As I listened to the numbers, but haven't rechecked, even if you take away the posted tests, it was still a huge ramp up of test on the day.
		
Click to expand...

And it's quite possible that 'huge ramp up... on one day' was actually 'managed' by holding back tests from previous days/weeks! I'm not saying that's what has happened, but, given the blatant spin in the announcement, it's certainly a possibility - or, God forbid, quite likely! I'd be interested to see the figures for tests 'made available' for today thru Tuesday to see whether the figures reduce significantly (discounting weekend reporting effects)!


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the  British multi-millionaire Monaco resident head of Jota Airways is planning a crowd funding case against the Government for imposing the so called 'lock down' as it is against the human rights.
		
Click to expand...

I'd bet he votes Conservative (certainly not Labour) though, so surely that should make you a fan!

I have no problem with folk who see an opportunity and take a risk to create jobs and wealth - both for themself and their partners/employees. Their tax status is a matter between them and the UK Government.


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## drdel (May 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'd bet he votes Conservative (certainly not Labour) though, so surely that should make you a fan!

I have no problem with folk who see an opportunity and take a risk to create jobs and wealth - both for themself and their partners/employees. Their tax status is a matter between them and the UK Government.
		
Click to expand...

Do you not see the irony of requesting 'crowd funding' for only £125k while also being a tax exile. 

I have no axe to grind on his wealth.


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Indeed. The other 20,000 tickets are in the post.
		
Click to expand...

Does that make the stadium smaller then


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Indeed. The other 20,000 tickets are in the post.
		
Click to expand...

1 million watched on tv so the attendance in the stadium was 1,080,000.

Trump school of mathematics.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2020)

Wolf said:



			And if the politician had answered you'd be the first to ask why the scientist didn't have an input considering it's the scientist who would be carrying out the results and compiling the numbers 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I’d have thought the final two words of my post made it a little obvious that I wasn’t being 100% serious...but no matter.  That does not take from the fact that it would have been easy enough for Hancock to have told us 80,000 tests and 40,000 requested - and if 80,000 tests a day is maintained and improved upon then when the 40,000 are returned in a few days time about 120,000 will be carried out that day.  That would have been clear and 100% honest. And target he had set blown out of the water. Job done. None the less good job Hancock - but the spin was not required.  It’s a pity some would have us believe he never said 100,000 tests a day by end of month or find the spin completely acceptable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Now you are making things up. If you want to be “quite clear” enter Matt Hancock 100,000 into the search bar in YouTube. You will hear him say that the target is 100,000 but he doesn’t say “tested” or “capability.” And that is his only wriggle room.

Personally, I took it to mean tested but that’s not what was said.

It was fairly clear, as we went through April that 100,000 tested wasn’t going to be met. The capacity was there by late April but how many times did the news programmes show empty test centres? You can’t blame the govt if people are too lazy to travel to a test centre.
		
Click to expand...

indeed - so he shouldn’t have at least implied we‘d be doing 100,000 tests a day, and then claimed we were. Just a bit silly and now an unnecessary distraction and talking point.


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## patricks148 (May 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			1 million watched on tv so the attendance in the stadium was 1,080,000.

Trump school of mathematics.

Click to expand...

maybe get Priti to explain it


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			1 million watched on tv so the attendance in the stadium was 1,080,000.

Trump school of mathematics.

Click to expand...

You said it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2020)

I like the football stadium analogy, but an improvement on it might be when a football match is reported as being sold out and the attendance is announced as the stadium capacity.  When someone points out that there were loads of empty seats we discover the ’attendance’ included every season ticket holder - whether they had turned up or not. 😉


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			Do you not see the irony of requesting 'crowd funding' for only £125k while also being a tax exile.
		
Click to expand...

No 'irony' imo!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2020)

I see the latest Survation 'trust on Covid info provided' survey has the following.

NHS...81%
Scottish Government...71%
The Organisation I work for.....59%
A few others until you reach UK Government 54%
Quite a lot more until you reach the Daily Express at 17%.

46% of the folk surveyed do not trust the information coming out of the UK government. Not great.
83% do not trust the Daily Express........surprised it was that high, considering that you have to buy it to understand how bad it is.


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## Old Skier (May 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the latest Survation 'trust on Covid info provided' survey has the following.

NHS...81%
Scottish Government...71%
The Organisation I work for.....59%
A few others until you reach UK Government 54%
Quite a lot more until you reach the Daily Express at 17%.

46% of the folk surveyed do not trust the information coming out of the UK government. Not great.
83% do not trust the Daily Express........surprised it was that high, considering that you have to buy it to understand how bad it is.

Click to expand...

Link


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 2, 2020)

pendodave said:



			This is a thoughtful post.
Where does it end? Could the coastal States form an alliance between the state and federal level? Would that be constitutional?
		
Click to expand...

The American Constitution is in practical terms unamendable when the population is polarized.
Any changes would be extra-constitutional and thus very messy and very scary.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			Do you not see the irony of requesting 'crowd funding' for only £125k while also being a tax exile.

I have no axe to grind on his wealth.
		
Click to expand...

Does he want to sue the UK govt or the French? Seems odd to be suing our govt when he is living under French rule. I don't miss the arrogance of this either way incidentally.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Link
		
Click to expand...

took me a second to find it with google

https://www.survation.com/survation-covid-19-public-attitude-tracker/


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Now you are making things up. If you want to be “quite clear” enter Matt Hancock 100,000 into the search bar in YouTube. You will hear him say that the target is 100,000 but he doesn’t say “tested” or “capability.” And that is his only wriggle room.

Personally, I took it to mean tested but that’s not what was said.

It was fairly clear, as we went through April that 100,000 tested wasn’t going to be met. The capacity was there by late April but how many times did the news programmes show empty test centres? You can’t blame the govt if people are too lazy to travel to a test centre.
		
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This vid 



At a few seconds before 15:00 he states that 'the new goal is 100000 *tests* per day' - capability is not mentioned, just like it wasn't mentioned in earlier statements of 'tests' either. No wiggle room imo!


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the latest Survation 'trust on Covid info provided' survey has the following.

NHS...81%
Scottish Government...71%
The Organisation I work for.....59%
A few others until you reach UK Government 54%
Quite a lot more until you reach the Daily Express at 17%.

46% of the folk surveyed do not trust the information coming out of the UK government. Not great.
83% do not trust the Daily Express........surprised it was that high, considering that you have to buy it to understand how bad it is.

Click to expand...

interesting that the Guardian is the most trusted newspaper and the Sun is the least trusted.


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I like the football stadium analogy, but an improvement on it might be when a football match is reported as being sold out and the attendance is announced as the stadium capacity.  When someone points out that there were loads of empty seats we discover the ’attendance’ included every season ticket holder - whether they had turned up or not. 😉
		
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Do we have Covid test season ticket holders  My anology was fine. You can make testing facilities available but you can't guarantee people will take up the offer. It has been reported some testing stations were underused.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

people tested yesterday 63,667 yet the govt is claiming 105,937

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do we have Covid test season ticket holders  My anology was fine. You can make testing facilities available but you can't guarantee people will take up the offer. It has been reported some testing stations were underused.
		
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people can't "take up the offer" if the 'offer" (or testing kit) is still in the post, can they?


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## ColchesterFC (May 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			This vid 



At a few seconds before 15:00 he states that 'the new goal is 100000 *tests* per day' - capability is not mentioned, just like it wasn't mentioned in earlier statements of 'tests' either. No wiggle room imo!
		
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Which is still different from the original Downing Street statement of "100000 people tested per day". The 100k tests could be on only 65k people due to retests.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Which is still different from the original Downing Street statement of "100000 people tested per day". The 100k tests could be on only 65k people due to retests.
		
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are you suggesting 35,000 people were tested twice on the same day?


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## ColchesterFC (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			are you suggesting 35,000 people were tested twice on the same day?
		
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Probably not actually that high, that was a bit of exaggeration on my part. I can't find the charts that were being shown but they were showing that even when the total testing figure was around 20k that only equated to around 16k people actually having the test. The total number of tests conducted is always higher than the total number of people tested due to inconclusive results meaning another test is done.


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## Old Skier (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			interesting that the Guardian is the most trusted newspaper and the Sun is the least trusted.
		
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Not really when you check out the owners


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not really when you check out the owners
		
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Which owners? Survation?


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Probably not actually that high, that was a bit of exaggeration on my part. I can't find the charts that were being shown but they were showing that even when the total testing figure was around 20k that only equated to around 16k people actually having the test. The total number of tests conducted is always higher than the total number of people tested due to inconclusive results meaning another test is done.
		
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I'm happy that 'tests' meant any repeat ones that may have been required. But that wasn't the case! He specifically mentioned 'capability', for the first time that I know of, when claiming success! A cop-out, imo, that might have even involved sinister witholding of tests earlier in the month! Seems simply too much of a coincidence that it was (only) on 'target day' that the figure was achieved - and with a significant jump from those of previous day's!

Great achievement all the same!


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Which is still different from the original Downing Street statement of "100000 people tested per day". The 100k tests could be on only 65k people due to retests.
		
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Got a link that confirms that? That WOULD be damning!


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## ColchesterFC (May 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'm happy that 'tests' meant any repeat ones that may have been required. But that wasn't the case! He specifically mentioned 'capability', for the first time that I know of, when claiming success! A cop-out, imo, that might have even involved sinister witholding of tests earlier in the month! Seems simply too much of a coincidence that it was (only) on 'target day' that the figure was achieved - and with a significant jump from those of previous day's!

Great achievement all the same!
		
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I agree with most of what you wrote. The original government tweet was 100k people tested per day. Hancock's original statement from 3rd April was that by the end of the month they would be carrying out 100k tests per day. It's only recently that capacity or capability have been introduced. I'm not sure that I see anything "sinister" in it or that they were withholding tests. I think they have just ramped up the amount of tests available and the number of people eligible. But it's a massive cop out to include testing kits that had been posted out but not yet returned.

As you, and almost everyone else, said if they had been honest and said "We've physically carried out 80k tests today. On top of that we've sent out 20k tests in the post to individuals and a further 20k tests to new testing stations" that would probably have been accepted as a great achievemnet and the end of the discussion and we'd all be talking about something else by now.


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## ColchesterFC (May 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Got a link that confirms that? That WOULD be damning!
		
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The official government figures show it. The image below is as of 9am this morning......




EDIT - I assume that it was this bit that you were referring to rather than the original Downing Street statement?


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## Foxholer (May 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			The official government figures show it. The image below is as of 9am this morning......

View attachment 30402


EDIT - I assume that it was this bit that you were referring to rather than the original Downing Street statement?
		
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No. Already got that (or equivalent) I was after the originai Downing street one.

Oh, FWIW, those numbers suggest that there WERE > 100k 'tests' on 1st May!


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## ColchesterFC (May 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No. Already got that (or equivalent) I was after the originai Downing street one.

Oh, FWIW, those numbers suggest that there WERE > 100k 'tests' on 1st May!
		
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Have found it on the official Downing Street twitter feed from 5th April......




However on 6th April it was changed to.......




https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/with_replies


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## ColchesterFC (May 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No. Already got that (or equivalent) I was after the originai Downing street one.

*Oh, FWIW, those numbers suggest that there WERE > 100k 'tests' on 1st May!*

Click to expand...

Depends if those figures include tests posted out but not yet returned.


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## rudebhoy (May 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depends if those figures include tests posted out but not yet returned.
		
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It does. There were 32k tests posted out included in the figure of 105k according to the govt stats.


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## Hacker Khan (May 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			interesting that the Guardian is the most trusted newspaper and the Sun is the least trusted.
		
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Yet the Guardian has the lowest circulation and The Sun has the largest. Guess people like buying newspapers which they don't really trust. Strange.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do we have Covid test season ticket holders  My anology was fine. You can make testing facilities available but you can't guarantee people will take up the offer. It has been reported some testing stations were underused.
		
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You can sell the tickets but you can’t claim an attendance based on ticket sales...your attendance is the number of people through the turnstile irrespective of tickets sold.👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'm happy that 'tests' meant any repeat ones that may have been required. But that wasn't the case! He specifically mentioned 'capability', for the first time that I know of, when claiming success! A cop-out, imo, that might have even involved sinister witholding of tests earlier in the month! Seems simply too much of a coincidence that it was (only) on 'target day' that the figure was achieved - and with a significant jump from those of previous day's!

Great achievement all the same!
		
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It is - but my suspicious mind suggested that it was a little handy that in the last few days leading to the end of the month that the government was able to open up testing to a much wider sector of the population and accept online requests for tests. Could that in any way be linked to a realisation that the 100,000 wasn’t going to be hit?

See how easy it is for those wary of accepting without question everything the government says or does to have their suspicions at least partly confirmed? This is why the government has to be, as Johnson promised only days ago, clear, open and honest about everything they are doing. It is a great pity and disappointing that in his first week back we have this totally unnecessary controversy.

Anyway - The most important thing is now to get our trace capability matched to and aligned with this testing capability.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not really when you check out the owners
		
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You’ll be shouting FAKE NEWS next 🙁


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## Mudball (May 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the  British multi-millionaire Monaco resident head of Jota Airways is planning a crowd funding case against the Government for imposing the so called 'lock down' as it is against the human rights.
		
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If the Supreme Court throws it out, will he go the ECJ.. would be ironic if ECJ forces the UK govt to open


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can sell the tickets but you can’t claim an attendance based on ticket sales...your attendance is the number of people through the turnstile irrespective of tickets sold.👍
		
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My comment was about capacity. Never mind, I dont want to keep repeating it.


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## User62651 (May 2, 2020)

Steve Baker with an astute observation about why the 100k number 'controversy' is what it is -


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2020)

Another good move by the Government today with the funding to help domestic abuse victims, I also see they now will make a payment of £60k to the families of NHS staff that die through Covid.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			people can't "take up the offer" if the 'offer" (or testing kit) is still in the post, can they?
		
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Very true, has anyone managed to bank a cheque that is 'in the post'.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yet the Guardian has the lowest circulation and The Sun has the largest. Guess people like buying newspapers which they don't really trust. Strange.
		
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Or that they don't buy newspapers because they trust them! Perhaps not so strange?!


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have found it on the official Downing Street twitter feed from 5th April......

View attachment 30403


However on 6th April it was changed to.......

View attachment 30404


https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/with_replies

Click to expand...

That's damning then! And also of the 'Official Government site figures'!

And might also be why Socket has gone into 'Well done the Government' (meaning the Tories) propaganda mode (again).


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## User62651 (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Another good move by the Government today with the funding to help domestic abuse victims, I also see they now will make a payment of £60k to the families of NHS staff that die through Covid.
		
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Wondering if there is there an existing death in service (at work) amount that NHS pay employees anyway and the Govt £60k would be extra on top of that? I hope so. If not, £60k for someone losing their life at work doing a normally low risk job seems way too low.  I would not be at all surprised to see lawsuits coming from NHS staff families or care home victim families in time, claiming for employer/Govt negligence wrt the possible lack of PPE/testing, looking for an awful lot more than £60k. Would be very hard to disprove that in court I think.

The domestic abuse fund is good news.


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## HowlingGale (May 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Wondering if there is there an existing death in service (at work) amount that NHS pay employees anyway and the Govt £60k would be extra on top of that? I hope so. If not, £60k for someone losing their life at work doing a normally low risk job seems way too low.  I would not be at all surprised to see lawsuits coming from NHS staff families or care home victim families in time, claiming for employer/Govt negligence wrt the possible lack of PPE/testing, looking for an awful lot more than £60k. Would be very hard to disprove that in court I think.

The domestic abuse fund is good news.
		
Click to expand...

There is a death in service payment or at least there used to be. It has been a while since I looked but the last time I checked it was something like twice your annual salary.

Really should regularly check my pension and all that as it's all tied in together.


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Wondering if there is there an existing death in service (at work) amount that NHS pay employees anyway and the Govt £60k would be extra on top of that? I hope so. If not, £60k for someone losing their life at work doing a normally low risk job seems way too low.  I would not be at all surprised to see lawsuits coming from NHS staff families or care home victim families in time, claiming for employer/Govt negligence wrt the possible lack of PPE/testing, looking for an awful lot more than £60k. Would be very hard to disprove that in court I think.

The domestic abuse fund is good news.
		
Click to expand...

There is a death in service benefit but I'm not sure what it is for different members of staff, depending on when they joined the NHS. Backtracking a little, the "gold-plated" index linked pension scheme that was in place when I joined the NHS was deemed too expensive and 'downgraded,' twice. Good old Tony Blair, again. 

Whatever scheme was in place when you joined the NHS was the one you stayed on.

Death in Service benefit was a lump sum, 2x final salary, and 50% of full pension. The assumption is the person would have worked for the NHS till normal retirement, hence the full pension.

Talking to current NHS staff the £60k is on top of the DiS scheme in place. A rough figure for an ITU Sister would be £77k + £60k(Covid) + £9k pension. There's also a tax break on that which is in place for 2 years.


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You’ll be shouting FAKE NEWS next 🙁
		
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That's your area of expertise.  What's your barber got to say on the matter.


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## huds1475 (May 3, 2020)

Why are people nitpicking about the tests? Surely the greater the testing capacity the better?

Same with news articles implicitly critical of building the nightingales. Better to have than not.

The pedantic finger-pointers really get on my moobs.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Why are people nitpicking about the tests? Surely the greater the testing capacity the better?

Same with news articles implicitly critical of building the nightingales. Better to have than not.

The pedantic finger-pointers really get on my moobs.
		
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And mine, it's really sad, many are so rabid in their party politics they cant move beyond nit picking criticism.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's damning then! And also of the 'Official Government site figures'!

And might also be why Socket has gone into 'Well done the Government' (meaning the Tories) propaganda mode (again).
		
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My 'well done' just might be due to some good initiatives by the Government but I guess  that doesnt suit your prejudices.


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## pendodave (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And mine, it's really sad, many are so rabid in their party politics they cant move beyond nit picking criticism.
		
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Some are so rabid in their party politics that they think that any legitimate criticism is just nit picking....
The distressing thing for me about the Tories on this thread is that they literally never say 'do you know what, you might be right, some of our policies/politicians are a bit rubbish', just like some on the left. I find their lack of intellectual curiosity and flexibility profoundly depressing.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Some are so rabid in their party politics that they think that any legitimate criticism is just nit picking....
The distressing thing for me about the Tories on this thread is that they literally never say 'do you know what, you might be right, some of our policies/politicians are a bit rubbish', just like some on the left. I find their lack of intellectual curiosity and flexibility profoundly depressing.
		
Click to expand...

In dire times like we find ourselves right now it's not the time for nit picking party politics, it's reasonable for people to pass  opinions or suggestions on how things could be improved but what I see continually being dished out on here is petty and vindictive.  So many take every opportunity to find fault but never give any credit..


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## chrisd (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In dire times like we find ourselves right now it's not the time for nit picking party politics, it's reasonable for people to pass  opinions or suggestions on how things could be improved but what I see continually being dished out on here is petty and vindictive.  So many take every opportunity to find fault but never give any credit..
		
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As luck would have it none of the posts on here matter a jot in real life, as nor did the thousands of Brexit thread posts.


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## patricks148 (May 3, 2020)




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## Old Skier (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In dire times like we find ourselves right now it's not the time for nit picking party politics, it's reasonable for people to pass  opinions or suggestions on how things could be improved but what I see continually being dished out on here is petty and vindictive.  So many take every opportunity to find fault but never give any credit..
		
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IMO the Torys missed a trick, they should have formed an apolitical virus committee of all party's then all this silly nonesence of questioning every move by a politically driven media (and us) would have had no where to go.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			IMO the Torys missed a trick, they should have formed an apolitical virus committee of all party's then all this silly nonesence of questioning every move by a politically driven media (and us) would have had no where to go.
		
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Yes, they could have done something like that. I have to credit Starmer for the way he has been conducting himself though.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My 'well done' just might be due to some good initiatives by the Government but I guess  that doesnt suit your prejudices.
		
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Oh, I was pleased they instigated those initiatives - so no 'prejudice' on my part. I'd be no different (so definitely no prejudice on my part) if it was Labour in government similarly fudging figures and announcing those measures, though I suspect you would! I'm just somewhat amused that in the midst of (now validated) criticism of 'the Government', you post some 'good news' action! Almost as if you are a 'Conservative activist' attempting to distract from a minister's 'dishonesty'!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Or that they don't buy newspapers because they trust them! Perhaps not so strange?!
		
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Perhaps The Graudian has a more gullible readership. 

Personally I trust no newspaper and have not read one regularly for some years.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 3, 2020)

Is the thread title correct? As I’m sure I read it as political views - supporting *or otherwise*...

If it was just a back slapping exercise people want then maybe they should contact the op about the title as it seems everytime someone has an otherwise view they are jumped on.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 3, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Some are so rabid in their party politics that they think that any legitimate criticism is just nit picking....
The distressing thing for me about the Tories on this thread is that they literally never say 'do you know what, you might be right, some of our policies/politicians are a bit rubbish', just like some on the left. I find their lack of intellectual curiosity and flexibility profoundly depressing.
		
Click to expand...

I have said before on similar threads that I really can't understand the committed single party followers. 

"My Party, right or wrong!" sits very uneasily with me, doesn't matter if it's Right or Left.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 3, 2020)

When the time is right we will hopefully have a thorough investigation into the actions that the Government has taken in dealing with this crisis. 

Undoubtedly it will reveal some mistakes that have been made. 

Equally it will show areas where actions were world leading.

Either way the important thing is that lessons are learned and judgments made from both the negatives and the positives.


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Oh, I was pleased they instigated those initiatives - so no 'prejudice' on my part. I'd be no different (so definitely no prejudice on my part) if it was Labour in government similarly fudging figures and announcing those measures, though I suspect you would! I'm just somewhat amused that in the midst of (now validated) criticism of 'the Government', you post some 'good news' action! Almost as if you are a 'Conservative activist' attempting to distract from a minister's 'dishonesty'!
		
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Yes, had to laugh when the poster who never fails to praise the govt and attack any criticism puts up a post complaining yet again about other people being party political then quickly throws up a comment praising Starmer!


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Perhaps The Graudian has a more gullible readership.

Personally I trust no newspaper and have not read one regularly for some years.
		
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Likewise, I haven't read any newspaper regularly for a long time. Back home, I used to read a 'slightly left' morning paper and a 'slightly right' evening one! I'm always aware when I'm reading a newspaper article - normally from my PC - of the 'editorial attitude' of the paper.

The relative 'failure' of The Independent'/I demonstrates that readers tend to want confirmation of their own prejudices, rather than having them challenged/changed by 'proper' journalism! 

Btw. My sig text is from the guy that created the paper(s) that eventually morphed into the Gruaniad!


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Perhaps The Graudian has a more gullible readership.

Personally I trust no newspaper and have not read one regularly for some years.
		
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Me too. I think the answer is Guardian readers do think about politics and gravitate to a paper which fits in with their beliefs (as do Times and Telegraph readers), while Sun readers are more interested in football, beer and Love Island.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			When the time is right we will hopefully have a thorough investigation into the actions that the Government has taken in dealing with this crisis.

Undoubtedly it will reveal some mistakes that have been made.

Equally it will show areas where actions were world leading.

Either way the important thing is that lessons are learned and judgments made from both the negatives and the positives.
		
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I don't believe that'll happen - at least, not in a non-political form. And I don't believe it would be particularly appropriate either! There may be a number of reviews into ways specific areas could have been made to work better, but nothing like an independent 'Judicial Review'. The review of government performance will be the next election!


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## MegaSteve (May 3, 2020)

If we were truly "in this together" then the least I'd have hoped for was some straightforward honesty from government... Sadly, for me, they've taken their lead from just about every other government/bureaucracy and failed in this aspect...


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## Swinglowandslow (May 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Yes, had to laugh when the poster who never fails to praise the govt and attack any criticism puts up a post complaining yet again about other people being party political then quickly throws up a comment praising Starmer!
		
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Yes, well Starmer has done quite well.................

By staying relatively quiet.!


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## Mudball (May 3, 2020)

Time for some cannon fodders for the Tory supporters 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...yle-has-been-sent-packing-by-too-much-reality


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Time for some cannon fodders for the Tory supporters

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...yle-has-been-sent-packing-by-too-much-reality

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I like reading Nick Cohen's articles! They make me feel far more centrist in my attitudes!


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Time for some cannon fodders for the Tory supporters

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...yle-has-been-sent-packing-by-too-much-reality

Click to expand...

The first paragraph is excellent. After that, pretty much all of the article is dire. But I suppose, using the journalist’s logic, the rest of the world will fail miserably too because they’re not in the EU.

Seriously, if this article resonates with people I can see plenty of candidates for the Darwin Award.


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## chrisd (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The first paragraph is excellent. After that, pretty much all of the article is dire. But I suppose, using the journalist’s logic, the rest of the world will fail miserably too because they’re not in the EU.

Seriously, if this article resonates with people I can see plenty of candidates for the Darwin Award.
		
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It certainly resonated with me - enough to realise my never buying the Guardian was indeed a wise saving of money 😀


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The first paragraph is excellent. After that, pretty much all of the article is dire. But I suppose, using the journalist’s logic, the rest of the world will fail miserably too because they’re not in the EU.

Seriously, if this article resonates with people I can see plenty of candidates for the Darwin Award.
		
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I lost interest when he described dead people as 'corpses' and seemed to suggest the drop in GDP was preventable.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It certainly resonated with me - enough to realise my never buying the Guardian was indeed a wise saving of money 😀
		
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Best not read The Observer either (I don't know anyone who does btw.) as that's where he's a Columnist!


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Yes, had to laugh when the poster who never fails to praise the govt and attack any criticism puts up a post complaining yet again about other people being party political then quickly throws up a comment praising Starmer!
		
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Would you have prefered me to have critised him. Your political style is  completely unreasonable, you constantly castigate the Government but if I mention something positive they've done I'm politically biased, if I suggest the new Labour leader is doing a good job It has connotations with the rubbish you post on a golf forum.


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you have prefered me to have critised him. Your political style is  completely unreasonable, you constantly castigate the Government but if I mention something positive they've done I'm politically biased, if I suggest the new Labour leader is doing a good job It has connotations with the rubbish you post on a golf forum.
		
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oh the irony!

If you care to look back on this thread and others, you will see praise from me recently for the Chancellor for the help he has made available, for BJ after one of his briefings, and on an number of times, for the govt for ramping up the number of tests over the last week.

my last post was a reaction to your hurried bit of faint praise for Starmer after you had a go at everyone else for being critical. It was so out of character it was obviously was a blatant attempt to cover your back imo.

I'll give praise where it's due, see the examples above. I'll also call the government out when it's due. You should try the latter sometime.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			oh the irony!

If you care to look back on this thread and others, you will see praise from me recently for the Chancellor for the help he has made available, for BJ after one of his briefings, and on an number of times, for the govt for ramping up the number of tests over the last week.

my last post was a reaction to your hurried bit of faint praise for Starmer after you had a go at everyone else for being critical. It was so out of character it was obviously was a blatant attempt to cover your back imo.

I'll give praise where it's due, see the examples above. I'll also call the government out when it's due. You should try the latter sometime.
		
Click to expand...

OK, maybe I should run it past you before saying anything positive about Starmer then 🙄


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, maybe I should run it past you before saying anything positive about Starmer then 🙄
		
Click to expand...

Excellent idea!

Certainly unlikely to take up much of anyone's time!


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Excellent idea!

Certainly unlikely to take up much of anyone's time!

Click to expand...

Well hes not been around in the position long and I will give him time to show how he operates before condemning him. From what I've seen so far he looks good.


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:





Foxholer said:



			Excellent idea!

Certainly unlikely to take up much of anyone's time!

Click to expand...

Well hes not been around in the position long and I will give him time to show how he operates before condemning him. From what I've seen so far he looks good.
		
Click to expand...

Whooosh!


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## Foxholer (May 3, 2020)

Oh! What a surprise!

Seems like figures rigged!! Or is the excuse 'the weekend'?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52519440


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Oh! What a surprise!

Seems like figures rigged!! Or is the excuse 'the weekend'?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52519440

Click to expand...

Maybe someone missed the post?


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## drdel (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Oh! What a surprise!

Seems like figures rigged!! Or is the excuse 'the weekend'?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52519440

Click to expand...

Always the same at weekends beause only NH hospitals report data every 24 hours; care sector can be 48/72 hrs behind.


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## rudebhoy (May 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Always the same at weekends beause only NH hospitals report data every 24 hours; care sector can be 48/72 hrs behind.
		
Click to expand...

Think the OP was talking about tests, not deaths.


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## patricks148 (May 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			oh the irony!

If you care to look back on this thread and others, you will see praise from me recently for the Chancellor for the help he has made available, for BJ after one of his briefings, and on an number of times, for the govt for ramping up the number of tests over the last week.

my last post was a reaction to your hurried bit of faint praise for Starmer after you had a go at everyone else for being critical. It was so out of character it was obviously was a blatant attempt to cover your back imo.

I'll give praise where it's due, see the examples above. I'll also call the government out when it's due. You should try the latter sometime.
		
Click to expand...

why bother dear boy, typical tory, one rule for them and another for anyone else


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Whooosh!
		
Click to expand...

I understood it but thought better of being dragged into your juvenile games.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

Another thread ruined by the antics of a few Tory hating posters dragging it down to their level.  The subject is too serious for this type of behaviour. I'm out of this one as well.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 4, 2020)

Thread reopened 

Please play nice or it will be closed permanently


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## Slab (May 4, 2020)

Before posting to have a moan about this or that stat or failure etc, remember folks throughout Jan/Feb not a one of us cared a jot about this virus or the thousands of dead and dying in Asia/Europe to be bothered enough to pass a comment on here

It’s a mighty small pedestal we seem to be trying to mount


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2020)

Johnson has built a political career out of bluff, bluster, jingoism of the worst sort bordering on racism and a fair few whoppers.
His camp followers like Gove, Patel, Rees Mogg [where has he gone], Fox etc follow his leadership style.
They stand up in front of a microphone and the UK public recognise them as people who have told them bare faced lies. 
They are now finding that in a crisis where lives and loved ones are at risk the people of the UK want honest leadership and the truth. 
So far they jury is out on that.


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## AmandaJR (May 4, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread reopened

Please play nice or it will be closed permanently
		
Click to expand...

Ooh would I go down in forum history for starting a thread that gets permanently closed??!!

The good thing is all this leaves the other thread alone for it to be what it should be. Members saying they're struggling, others offering help and a beacon of ligh and hope.


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## Mudball (May 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Ooh would I go down in forum history for starting a thread that gets permanently closed??!!

The good thing is all this leaves the other thread alone for it to be what it should be. Members saying they're struggling, others offering help and a beacon of ligh and hope.
		
Click to expand...

this Thursday I will clap for Amanda for starting this thread and Fragger for reopening....  someone gotta do it..


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## MegaSteve (May 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			Before posting to have a moan about this or that stat or failure etc, remember folks throughout Jan/Feb not a one of us cared a jot about this virus or the thousands of dead and dying in Asia/Europe to be bothered enough to pass a comment on here

It’s a mighty small pedestal we seem to be trying to mount
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting the great British public sleptwalked its way into the current situation we now find ourselves in 😉✌...


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## Slab (May 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Are you suggesting the great British public sleptwalked its way into the current situation we now find ourselves in 😉✌...
		
Click to expand...

Kinda & also saying there’s no one on here that can afford to get all high n mighty on this subject. We kept our mouths well and truly shut on this forum when it was just killing folk in Asia/Europe so we can't go playing political one-upmanship now that its reached the garden gate


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Oh! What a surprise!

Seems like figures rigged!! Or is the excuse 'the weekend'?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52519440

Click to expand...

Reported on the news today that people failed to turn up for 20,000 test over the weekend.


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## MegaSteve (May 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			Kinda & also saying there’s no one on here that can afford to get all high n mighty on this subject. We kept our mouths well and truly shut on this forum when it was just killing folk in Asia/Europe so we can't go playing political one-upmanship now that its reached the garden gate
		
Click to expand...

Or, perhaps more likely, our error was a misplaced faith that our government had our backs covered... Which, seems from afar, your government/ administration did...


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## Hobbit (May 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			Before posting to have a moan about this or that stat or failure etc, remember folks throughout Jan/Feb not a one of us cared a jot about this virus or the thousands of dead and dying in Asia/Europe to be bothered enough to pass a comment on here

It’s a mighty small pedestal we seem to be trying to mount
		
Click to expand...

When it was initially reported in early Jan, it pinged up on my radar, just as SARS and MERS did. Its an area of (clinical)interest. And the numbers started to rise very quickly. And then the Spanish press started to raise concerns of the Chinese travelling to visit their relatives for Chinese New Year - Spain has a lot of Chinese. The article also referenced the start of the outbreak in Italy, and the fact that a lot of the leather factories in Northern Italy were Chinese owned and had a lot of Chinese employees.

And still the numbers were rising. I started to look at the numbers were the global transport hubs were based. e.g. Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Madrid, London, New York and Chicago. And then if they were rippling out from there.

And during all of this govts were rushing to build emergency hospitals and order mountains of equipment. Now why would they do that?

How have the UK govt performed since around lockdown till now? In the last 8 weeks, not bad at all. But what about from Jan through to things really ramping up - there was the herd immunity thing that the WHO were against, and all the data coming out of countries already in the middle of it. Seriously, is culpable in manslaughter a bit harsh? Probably, but only just.

And the messaging from the govt hasn't helped. TELL the public what lockdown has to be, not give them a cuddle and ask them if they mind staying in. 2,000 fines 'v' 800,000 fines in Spain. Get the message across and get it across unambiguously.

Anecdotally, last night we were having a 3 way discussion with two lots of neighbours over the back and side fence. One of them was saying how stupid the lockdown has been. The other, like us, has done everything by the book. One of them has had a few house parties, a couple of BBQ's etc. I'm the Devil's Spawn. My response was if you get it, don't ring me but if those to our side get it, I'll help out.

But that's just my opinion.


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## Foxholer (May 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Reported on the news today that people failed to turn up for 20,000 test over the weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Got a link to tinternet version of report?

Only stuff I could find was (fairly old info) about how 20k more tests *could* be done or how 20k 'representative' households would asked to send swabs!


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Got a link to tinternet version of report?

Only stuff I could find was (fairly old info) about how 20k more tests *could* be done or how 20k 'representative' households would asked to send swabs!
		
Click to expand...

No link, was on BBC Breakfast this morning


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2020)

Smart phone apps……….Isle of Wight citizens.
Really...anyone done the maths.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Smart phone apps……….Isle of Wight citizens.
Really...anyone done the maths.

Click to expand...

Sorry I hadn't realised that virology, epidemiology and social sciences were your specialist skills. 

If only I had known  I would have let SAGE know that they had no need of the research they had undertaken.


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## rudebhoy (May 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No link, was on BBC Breakfast this morning
		
Click to expand...

would have thought that would have been widely reported.

maybe you misheard ...


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 4, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			would have thought that would have been widely reported.

maybe you misheard ...
		
Click to expand...

Would it be widely reported if it didn't fit the narrative?

I'm not certain. But then I trust no media outlet, BBC, ITV, Sky, or literally any newspaper. 

Whatever the story they all choose their own standpoint on an issue and nothing will ever deflect them.


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## drdel (May 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Smart phone apps……….Isle of Wight citizens.
Really...anyone done the maths.

Click to expand...

Yes. Loads from Apple, Cyber security, universities etc etc :but I guess because they are in the South it doesnt count.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			would have thought that would have been widely reported.

maybe you misheard ...
		
Click to expand...

No hearing is still fairly good, not sure if you can get BBC Breakfast on catch up but is was sometime between 0720-0800 if your really interested.

Barnstaple pop up center was so quite you could just rock up if you had symptoms  and they would register you there and then and test you.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes. Loads from Apple, Cyber security, universities etc etc :but I guess because they are in the South it doesnt count.
		
Click to expand...

If your not Scottish your not. Wonder how his English wife and daughter get on in such a blinkered household.


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## Mudball (May 4, 2020)

Well he is not going to endear himself if his vaccine of choice is his 6th or 7th kid.


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## rudebhoy (May 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No hearing is still fairly good, not sure if you can get BBC Breakfast on catch up but is was sometime between 0720-0800 if your really interested.
		
Click to expand...

Not going to spend 40 minutes looking for a story that didn't happen.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Not going to spend 40 minutes looking for a story that didn't happen.
		
Click to expand...

I presume your suggesting that I'm not telling the truth then. That's a first on the forum.


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## rudebhoy (May 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I presume your suggesting that I'm not telling the truth then. That's a first on the forum.
		
Click to expand...

I'm suggesting you are mistaken. There is no way that if 20% of people who had booked a test failed to turn up for said tests, it would not be widely reported.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I'm suggesting you are mistaken. There is no way that if 20% of people who had booked a test failed to turn up for said tests, it would not be widely reported.
		
Click to expand...

Good to know your on the case. I know where to come for correct information,


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## rudebhoy (May 5, 2020)

Sports Direct managers accuse firm of making them work on furlough.

Think it was Ted Heath who coined the phrase "the unacceptable face of capitalism" - Ashley really is the epitome of that.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry I hadn't realised that virology, epidemiology and social sciences were your specialist skills.

If only I had known  I would have let SAGE know that they had no need of the research they had undertaken.
		
Click to expand...

I am certainly NOT an expert on anything.
But my IOW BIL recons that only 25% of the population on the IOW have a smart phone.
The clue is......….what type of person moves to the IOW.


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## rudebhoy (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am certainly NOT an expert on anything.
But my IOW BIL recons that only 25% of the population on the IOW have a smart phone.
The clue is......….what type of person moves to the IOW.

Click to expand...


ITV interviewed a couple of locals the other night, one of them said It was terrible that the government was using the islanders as Guinea pigs, for Gods sake, its an app on your phone, it's not like they are force feeding you drugs!


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## Slab (May 5, 2020)

Seen a pic of the PM with a costa coffee in today's online rags. Library pic, reusable cup? 

One Lockachino Lite please


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## Imurg (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am certainly NOT an expert on anything.
But my IOW BIL recons that only 25% of the population on the IOW have a smart phone.
The clue is......….what type of person moves to the IOW.

Click to expand...

The bigger clue is..what type of person thinks like this.....
The population of the IoW is approximately 140000.
Approximately 80% of adults have smartphones 
Allowing for kids and those who don't bother I think it's fair to say at least 40% are likely to have one.
Hell, let's make it 30%
That still means over 40000 smartphones on the island.
If only half use the app that's still mor than enough to see if it works or not.
And, dont forget, not everybody moves to the IoW...some are actually born there.....


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			The bigger clue is..what type of person thinks like this.....
The population of the IoW is approximately 140000.
Approximately 80% of adults have smartphones
Allowing for kids and those who don't bother I think it's fair to say at least 40% are likely to have one.
Hell, let's make it 30%
That still means over 40000 smartphones on the island.
If only half use the app that's still mor than enough to see if it works or not.
And, dont forget, not everybody moves to the IoW...some are actually born there.....

Click to expand...

There you go being all sensible with actual facts and proper reasoning. You know that doesn't sit with DfT agenda on anything political 😂


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## MegaSteve (May 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			The bigger clue is..what type of person thinks like this.....
The population of the IoW is approximately 140000.
Approximately 80% of adults have smartphones
Allowing for kids and those who don't bother I think it's fair to say at least 40% are likely to have one.
Hell, let's make it 30%
That still means over 40000 smartphones on the island.
If only half use the app that's still mor than enough to see if it works or not.
And, dont forget, not everybody moves to the IoW...some are actually born there.....

Click to expand...

I wonder if those that are born on the island then subsequently move to the mainland for their working lives have a habit on retirement of returning to their birthplace spending the rest of their days slagging off mainlanders ...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			ITV interviewed a couple of locals the other night, one of them said It was terrible that the government was using the islanders as Guinea pigs, for Gods sake, its an app on your phone, it's not like they are force feeding you drugs!
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps they mean it is a poor choice because of the low smart phone use.
From what I have seen the app needs around 80% smart phone use to be effective.

They are now saying that UK unemployment will reach between 19% to 35% after the crisis is over.
Worst hit areas will be Northern England.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am certainly NOT an expert on anything.
But my IOW BIL recons that only 25% of the population on the IOW have a smart phone.
The clue is......….what type of person moves to the IOW.

Click to expand...

And your BIL has, of course, undertaken a survey of the islanders and not just relied upon anecdotal evidence from his own circle of contacts.

You really haven't got a clue.


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am certainly NOT an expert on anything.
But my IOW BIL recons that only 25% of the population on the IOW have a smart phone.
The clue is......….what type of person moves to the IOW.

Click to expand...

https://www.plumplot.co.uk/Isle-of-Wight-population.html

Yet the average age  of its residents as of 2018 was 46 years old 🤔

I'd hazard a guess that there will be more than 20% smart phone ownership or does your barber, sorry BiL law know better.


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No hearing is still fairly good, not sure if you can get BBC Breakfast on catch up but is was sometime between 0720-0800 if your really interested.

Barnstaple pop up center was so quite you could just rock up if you had symptoms  and they would register you there and then and test you.
		
Click to expand...

Just checked and around 7:35 and Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, was talking about mobile testing centres - manned by armed forces personnel. He stated, as a bit of an aside, that arounf 25% of those who had booked a test from a mobile test unit did not turn up. Was that it?


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			ITV interviewed a couple of locals the other night, one of them said It was terrible that the government was using the islanders as Guinea pigs, for Gods sake, its an app on your phone, *it's not like they are force feeding you drugs*!
		
Click to expand...

I believe there's quite a historic association of IofW and drugs!

Does demonstrate how such 'pilots' need to be sold to the targetted participants as opposed to simply 'applied'!


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## drdel (May 5, 2020)

The App uses Bluetooth to record the proximity to another phone of an infected person and then xcheck to trace other phones back at a data centre. What I'd like is for my phone to warn me that the phone of a potentially infected person is nearby
That way I could avoid the situation


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## Ethan (May 5, 2020)

Setting aside the debate over the central/local data retention issue, it seems to me that the strategy requires people who are identified as close contacts to be tested, and if found to be positive, their close contacts to be tested too and son on. It takes a few days to organise testing and get the results back, so by the time the contacts are tested, around 5 days will have passed. This is the median incubation, so decent chance of identifying the next wave of cases. Contacts who test negative will also be tested again if symptoms subsequently appear. The failure to get testing up fast enough at scale is vying with PPE failures as the biggest failings of the entire strategy.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



https://www.plumplot.co.uk/Isle-of-Wight-population.html

Yet the average age  of its residents as of 2018 was 46 years old 🤔

I'd hazard a guess that there will be more than 20% smart phone ownership or does your barber, sorry BiL law know better.
		
Click to expand...

Barber?
A couple of stats to add on,
One on four over 65, one in six houses are single occupancy.
Your own IOW stats states biggest single age group is between 66 and 72.

IOW just seems like a lazy choice, and results will not show as 'average' because it is a flipping island.
Why not choose a town like Cambridge, Oxford or new towns like MK or Swindon where I would imagine smart phone useage would have been much higher.


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A couple of stats to add on,
One on four over 65, one in six houses are single occupancy.

IOW just seems like a lazy choice, and results will not show as 'average' because it is a flipping island.
Why not choose a town like Cambridge, Oxford or new towns like MK or Swindon where I would imagine smart phone useage would have been much higher.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't change the average age of resident though does it therefore makes it a good place to do it as it easier to isolate the tests area


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## Imurg (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Barber?
A couple of stats to add on,
One on four over 65, one in six houses are single occupancy.
Your own IOW stats states biggest single age group is between 66 and 72.

IOW just seems like a lazy choice, and results will not show as 'average' because it is a flipping island.
Why not choose a town like Cambridge, Oxford or new towns like MK or Swindon where I would imagine smart phone useage would have been much higher.
		
Click to expand...

Its because it's an island....
Travel to and from is relatively restricted so it's easier to see how the virus spreads in a "relatively " confined area.
Choose Oxford or similar and you have much more engagement of people as more are able to come into the  city to shop or work, some from many miles away.
They're trying to find out if the app works.
Trailing it in a controllable area makes perfect sense


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Barber?
A couple of stats to add on,
One on four over 65, one in six houses are single occupancy.
Your own IOW stats states biggest single age group is between 66 and 72.

IOW just seems like a lazy choice, and results will not show as 'average' because it is a flipping island.
Why not choose a town like Cambridge, Oxford or new towns like MK or Swindon where I would imagine smart phone useage would have been much higher.
		
Click to expand...

My wife and I are both 71 and each have smartphones. 

Using your circle of acquaintances methods to include my golfing circle (approx 16-20) who are all of a similar age I do not know one without such a device. 

But then my metric is probably about as accurate as your brother in law.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am certainly NOT an expert on anything.
But my IOW BIL recons that only 25% of the population on the IOW have a smart phone.
The clue is......….what type of person moves to the IOW.

Click to expand...

...and we know at least one member of the forum who has never had ANY sort of mobile phone...never mind a SMART phone.  

But if the report that 80% of IOW residents are willing - or are going - to download the app then that's a good thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Barber?
A couple of stats to add on,
One on four over 65, one in six houses are single occupancy.
Your own IOW stats states biggest single age group is between 66 and 72.

IOW just seems like a lazy choice, and results will not show as 'average' because it is a flipping island.
Why not choose a town like Cambridge, Oxford or new towns like MK or Swindon where I would imagine smart phone useage would have been much higher.
		
Click to expand...

My barber told me he'd head off back to France as a result of Brexit and the xenophobia he was hearing (who am I to judge what he was hearing) among a section of the UK electorate - and he did.  Apparently it's a forum 'in joke'


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My barber told me he'd head off back to France as a result of Brexit and the xenophobia he was hearing (who am I to judge what he was hearing) among a section of the UK electorate - and he did.  Apparently it's a forum 'in joke' 

Click to expand...

Thanks Hoggie.
I don't know how you manage to put up with the abuse you get on here from the usual suspects, keep at it, they are just trying to drive you off the site because you hold a different view to them.
BTW I assume you had good news with your missus. 
Not such good news with my mum, she is on end of life care now and decided to stay in the care home rather than hospital/hospice. Not CV related just her ticker is giving out.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps they mean it is a poor choice because of the low smart phone use.
From what I have seen the app needs around 80% smart phone use to be effective.

They are now saying that UK unemployment will reach between 19% to 35% after the crisis is over.
Worst hit areas will be Northern England.
		
Click to expand...

Look, the app is being tested to see if it works as an app, not to get meaningful data figures from which to make policy. It doesn't need the  80 % you are on about. It just needs to see if people's phones interact with each other, , electronically etc .
Being an island apparently assists in this regard. Hence the venue.
Then if it does work as intended, it will be offered out for the population to help the government to get the data, ( and , so ,help the country).
If the population don't cooperate, then that isn't the apps fault, or the promoters of the app, or the government. It's the populations responsibility for turning down an opportunity to fight the virus.


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## drdel (May 5, 2020)

The IOW is a relatively contained population with few transport links to mainland. It also has single good hospital, low but high enough infection rate. 

It's about the only feasible statistically and technological option for the UK. 

Using a town on the mainland would have too much noise in the data?


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## rudebhoy (May 5, 2020)

Data published by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed 29,648 deaths linked to coronavirus had taken place in England and Wales as of 24 April.

Including deaths for Scotland and Northern Ireland, the toll on this measure now amounts to *32,313*.

According to the ONS report, of the deaths registered up to 24 April, 71.8 per cent (19,643 deaths) occurred in hospital. 5,890 deaths took place in care homes, 1,306 in private homes and 301 in hospices. This represents a fall of 12.6 per cent in hospital deaths, but an increase of 2,500 deaths in care home deaths compared to the week before.


We now have the highest death rate in Europe - what was that Johnson was saying about us succeeding in avoiding the awful tragedy seen in other countries?


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## rudebhoy (May 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Look, the app is being tested to see if it works as an app, not to get meaningful data figures from which to make policy. It doesn't need the  80 % you are on about. It just needs to see if people's phones interact with each other, , electronically etc .
Being an island apparently assists in this regard. Hence the venue.
Then if it does work as intended, it will be offered out for the population to help the government to get the data, ( and , so ,help the country).
If the population don't cooperate, then that isn't the apps fault, or the promoters of the app, or the government. It's the populations responsibility for turning down an opportunity to fight the virus.
		
Click to expand...

surely part of the testing is to see what the take up rate is? 

anyway, fingers crossed it goes well, and is rolled out country-wide asap, hopefully before restrictions are relaxed.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Look, the app is being tested to see if it works as an app, not to get meaningful data figures from which to make policy. It doesn't need the  80 % you are on about. It just needs to see if people's phones interact with each other, , electronically etc .
Being an island apparently assists in this regard. Hence the venue.
Then if it does work as intended, it will be offered out for the population to help the government to get the data, ( and , so ,help the country).
If the population don't cooperate, then that isn't the apps fault, or the promoters of the app, or the government. It's the populations responsibility for turning down an opportunity to fight the virus.
		
Click to expand...

I understand it better now....my missus explained.

The app is being tested before the IOW becomes the first part of the UK to leave lockdown.
Locals protesting about being used as lockdown guinea pigs, not for testing the app and using low smart phone use as an example to take it elsewhere.
Essential staff, food deliveries etc etc still using the ferries both ways but would be lower numbers than on the mainland.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

[We now have the highest death rate in Europe - what was that Johnson was saying about us succeeding in avoiding the awful tragedy seen in other countries?[/QUOTE]]


Very badly chose words that would have been written by a speech writer and checked a few times before being read out.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We now have the highest death rate in Europe - what was that Johnson was saying about us succeeding in avoiding the awful tragedy seen in other countries?
		
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[/QUOTE]


Doon if you listened to Andrew Marr on Sunday , there was a bloke from the Office of National Statistics, who was very interesting to hear
He said that countries are not counting deaths in the same way, some are counting it if Corona is the sole cause of death, others, like us are counting it if Corona is a contributory factor in that death

It would obviously be far easier if all countries could use the same method of counting,  until that happens, you are comparing Asparagus and Aubergines

At the end of all this the only way to tell will be to compare the number of deaths over a period of time, with averages from past years
and the ratio of deaths to population numbers

In the meantime, spinning the numbers to your own political agenda, helps nobody


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## Imurg (May 5, 2020)

Plus Italian number crunchers reckon they've underestimated by as many 15k...
Not that it's a race but you can only compare like with like...


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Doon if you listened to Andrew Marr on Sunday , there was a bloke from the Office of National Statistics, who was very interesting to hear
He said that countries are not counting deaths in the same way, some are counting it if Corona is the sole cause of death, others, like us are counting it if Corona is a contributory factor in that death

It would obviously be far easier if all countries could use the same method of counting,  until that happens, you are comparing Asparagus and Aubergines

At the end of all this the only way to tell will be to compare the number of deaths over a period of time, with averages from past years
and the ratio of deaths to population numbers

In the meantime, spinning the numbers to your own political agenda, helps nobody
		
Click to expand...

If I was intelligent enough to put a clapping gif I'd put several here now.. Absolutely spot on and why comparing across countries is pointless because everyone is reporting their figures differently. People just want to spin to suit their own agenda to highlight flaws in parties they don't support.

Well said Frag...


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## PhilTheFragger (May 5, 2020)

The deaths per million are key. look at Belgium,  Spain is still a fair bit ahead too, as is Italy

Russia is going to explode as is India, 
it aint over yet, unfortunately


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thanks Hoggie.
I don't know how you manage to put up with the abuse you get on here from the usual suspects, keep at it, they are just trying to drive you off the site because you hold a different view to them.
BTW I assume you had good news with your missus. 
Not such good news with my mum, she is on end of life care now and decided to stay in the care home rather than hospital/hospice. Not CV related just her ticker is giving out.
		
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We did thankyou - a positive outcome - though it was a scary two weeks given what my wife knew would be the prognosis if the outcome had been in the negative.

And fortunately - as much because of my wife's situation and other stuff that I do that helps me  - I am able to practice a lot of acceptance around the things I cannot change - seeing things in the perspective they merit and acting/reacting accordingly   And my thoughts and prayers with you, your mum and close ones...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

how?) 



Ethan said:



			Setting aside the debate over the central/local data retention issue, it seems to me that the strategy requires people who are identified as close contacts to be tested, and if found to be positive, their close contacts to be tested too and son on. It takes a few days to organise testing and get the results back, so by the time the contacts are tested, around 5 days will have passed. This is the median incubation, so decent chance of identifying the next wave of cases. Contacts who test negative will also be tested again if symptoms subsequently appear. The failure to get testing up fast enough at scale is vying with PPE failures as the biggest failings of the entire strategy.
		
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What I am missing is where the 18,000 'contact-tracers' fit into the solution.  What I'm hearing this morning is all about the app?  Or is this just about whether the app works and if proven the full solution will involve contact-tracers doing follow-up (how will they do that?) to check that all who will have been pinged by the app _got _the ping, and have acted accordingly - self-isolate then get tested?


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Just checked and around 7:35 and Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, was talking about mobile testing centres - manned by armed forces personnel. He stated, as a bit of an aside, that arounf 25% of those who had booked a test from a mobile test unit did not turn up. Was that it?
		
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Could be, maybe I am deaf


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			If I was intelligent enough to put a clapping gif I'd put several here now.. Absolutely spot on and why comparing across countries is pointless because everyone is reporting their figures differently. *People just want to spin to suit their own agenda to highlight flaws in parties they don't support.*

Well said Frag...
		
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This is just so not true - but it is the agenda that those supporting the government - it seems no matter what happens - would like to spin.  Flaws in what the government is doing should concern as _all -_ but apparently not.

Many of us simply struggle to trust this government because of what some of us see as the Brexit debacle and the history of some of the key participants in making that happen - and who are now the ministers and advisors.  What I want is openness, clarity and honesty from the government.  If the government chooses to provide us with comparative data then I am absolutely entitled to make observations and raise questions on what that data says.

That supporters of this government seem to completely fail to understand this very simple fact of life - and they continue to spin any scepticism and questioning as being politically motivated and anti-government - frankly astonishes me.


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Its because it's an island....
Travel to and from is relatively restricted so it's easier to see how the virus spreads in a "relatively " confined area.
Choose Oxford or similar and you have much more engagement of people as more are able to come into the  city to shop or work, some from many miles away.
They're trying to find out if the app works.
Trailing it in a controllable area makes perfect sense
		
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Yep doesn't take a genius really but he's got to have his normal moan against anything south of the boarder. Wonder if Scottish Universities will have the neck to ask RUK for handout


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is just so not true - but it is the agenda that those supporting the government - it seems no matter what happens - would like to spin.  Flaws in what the government is doing should concern as _all -_ but apparently not.

Many of us simply struggle to trust this government because of what some of us see as the Brexit debacle and the history of some of the key participants in making that happen - and who are now the ministers and advisors.  What I want is openness, clarity and honesty from the government.  If the government chooses to provide us with comparative data then I am absolutely entitled to make observations and raise questions on what that data says.

That supporters of this government seem to completely fail to understand this very simple fact of life - and they continue to spin any scepticism and questioning as being politically motivated and anti-government - frankly astonishes me.
		
Click to expand...

It is in many cases completely true. Also if you cannot separate brexit from coronavirus in your views that says a lot about only viewing through personal political bias. 

I'm no Tory supporter, I also didn't want Brexit but I do believe they've done many things right during this period and yes got some wrong but that would be the same for any government. 

However the point I was replying to was about number reporting and comparing like for like against other countries and using that as something to spin against the government. We shouldn't be comparing with anyone or using those comparisons to dig out whoever is in government when other countries have completely different criteria for reporting the death tolls..

As for your last paragraph that is not only the supporters of this government, it would be the same of supporters of a Labour, Liberal or any other government that they have a political support towards.


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			how?)

What I am missing is where the 18,000 'contact-tracers' fit into the solution.  What I'm hearing this morning is all about the app?  Or is this just about whether the app works and if proven the full solution will involve contact-tracers doing follow-up (how will they do that?) to check that all who will have been pinged by the app _got _the ping, and have acted accordingly - self-isolate then get tested?
		
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The contract tracers will be civil servants and mostly call center staff. You have a test, you prove positive, phone rings if your not an app user and you are asked where/who you may have been with over the last - 5? days then the fun(tracing) will begin. Well that's how or MP explained it on her daily FB briefings.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 5, 2020)

Doon if you listened to Andrew Marr on Sunday , there was a bloke from the Office of National Statistics, who was very interesting to hear
He said that countries are not counting deaths in the same way, some are counting it if Corona is the sole cause of death, others, like us are counting it if Corona is a contributory factor in that death

It would obviously be far easier if all countries could use the same method of counting,  until that happens, you are comparing Asparagus and Aubergines

At the end of all this the only way to tell will be to compare the number of deaths over a period of time, with averages from past years
and the ratio of deaths to population numbers

In the meantime, spinning the numbers to your own political agenda, helps nobody[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree with what you say Phil, but what I would add is, is the fact it’s an issue with modern culture and the numbers game.

We should remember it is the Government that put these numbers out and that is because the media and the public want them and MP’s of all parties fall into the trap.
ie, When questioned on death tolls the PM has to learn to forget numbers and simply state the intention is to get it as low as possible due to being in an unknown situation.

Hancock should of stated we have ordered miliions of test kits and we will endeavour to get as many done as possible, improving as we go.

I don’t blame the PM or Hancock it could be politicians from any Party, this time it’s them, but they need to stop being bullied or falling into the trap of the numbers game.

The only time any MP needs to worry about exact targets is when it’s a GE.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is just so not true - but it is the agenda that those supporting the government - it seems no matter what happens - would like to spin.  Flaws in what the government is doing should concern as _all -_ but apparently not.

Many of us simply struggle to trust this government because of what some of us see as the Brexit debacle and the history of some of the key participants in making that happen - and who are now the ministers and advisors.  What I want is openness, clarity and honesty from the government.  If the government chooses to provide us with comparative data then I am absolutely entitled to make observations and raise questions on what that data says.

That supporters of this government seem to completely fail to understand this very simple fact of life - and they continue to spin any scepticism and questioning as being politically motivated and anti-government - frankly astonishes me.
		
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Well, it shouldn't astonish you, because you take every opportunity to have a little nip at the PM and his ministers. As you allude to above, uppermost in your mind is the brexit debate, and you will never forgive them for their stance on that.
You make posts saying that in this crisis they have a difficult job etc etc and damn them with faint praise, because in that post somewhere is you saying or inferring that you don't trust them( e.g. Post 1406 in the Boris thread ).
Always the little dig.
I'm a bit sceptical myself of Tory policies in normal times. I believe in nationalisation of Utilities, and railways. (The former on national security basis, our energy should be in the Country's hands etc, and the latter on the basis of the country's money is running them, so it should own them), so I am not a one Party for life man.
However, this is a national crisis and I am not so biased as to worry about the 
Party identity of the government , but more in the belief that the government wants to do the best for the Country at this time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 30447


The deaths per million are key. look at Belgium,  Spain is still a fair bit ahead too, as is Italy

Russia is going to explode as is India,
it aint over yet, unfortunately
		
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Speaking with our Belgian friends on Sunday one of the key drivers of the Belgium numbers is that Carnival went ahead over weekend of 23/24 Feb - three days with many tens of thousands crammed together in the small town of Aalst - with the numbers in Carnival very large relative to the population of the country as a whole (11.5m).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, it shouldn't astonish you, because you take every opportunity to have a little nip at the PM and his ministers. As you allude to above, uppermost in your mind is the brexit debate, and you will never forgive them for their stance on that.
You make posts saying that in this crisis they have a difficult job etc etc and damn them with faint praise, because in that post somewhere is you saying or inferring that you don't trust them( e.g. Post 1406 in the Boris thread ).
Always the little dig.
I'm a bit sceptical myself of Tory policies in normal times. I believe in nationalisation of Utilities, and railways. (The former on national security basis, our energy should be in the Country's hands etc, and the latter on the basis of the country's money is running them, so it should own them), so I am not a one Party for life man.
H*owever, this is a national crisis and I am not so biased as to worry about the
Party identity of the government , *but more in the belief that the government wants to do the best for the Country at this time.
		
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And neither am I - all I am bothered about is openness and honesty from those I have come to distrust over the previous 4 yrs - yes - because of the Brexit debacle - but that is simply how it is.  It is now up to these same ministers to demonstrate to us ALL that, as you say - they are doing the best for the *country *at this time.

It is a pity that many are apparently unable to differentiate between_ 'having a dig' _and_ 'asking a question'_


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And neither am I - all I am bothered about is openness and honesty from those I have come to distrust over the previous 4 yrs - yes - because of the Brexit debacle - but that is simply how it is.  It is now up to these same ministers to demonstrate to us ALL that, as you say - they are doing the best for the *country *at this time.

It is a pity that many are apparently unable to differentiate between_ 'having a dig' _and_ 'asking a question'_

Click to expand...

No you never have a dig, you just have a quote "from a friend". Why do you distrust them/it/who, Cant be those in the "current" government, they did exactly what they said they would do.


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## drdel (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is just so not true - but it is the agenda that those supporting the government - it seems no matter what happens - would like to spin.  Flaws in what the government is doing should concern as _all -_ but apparently not.

Many of us simply struggle to trust this government because of what some of us see as the *Brexit debacle* and the history of some of the key participants in making that happen - and who are now the ministers and advisors.  What I want is openness, clarity and honesty from the government.  If the government chooses to provide us with comparative data then I am absolutely entitled to make observations and raise questions on what that data says.

*That supporters of this government seem to completely fail to understand this very simple fact of life - and they continue to spin any scepticism and questioning as being politically motivated and anti-government - frankly astonishes me*.
		
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It is a pity that you seem to be permanently set on an anti-Government path. The "Brexit debacle" was a failure of UK Parliament and politicians on both the EU and UK sides.

You continuously argued for openness during the years from 2016 and now during this pandemic you want more and more - information than may actually be unavailable or yet decided. You claim to want honesty but only want to believe the truth that fits, the rest is 'spin' in you opinion. The daily briefing are surely the best example of openness and the system that could be used at this time

You say you want to review comparable data yet sem to diisgard the fact that the collection methods and data noise in much interational info. is highly variable. Germany for example has researchers who are claiming vastly different and much higher rates than their Government's.

I guess the last paragraph fits with you Brexit stance that supporters of leaving the EU were mentally challenged sheep. IMO it is the best example of irony I have seen in a while.


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And neither am I - all I am bothered about is openness and honesty from those I have come to distrust over the previous 4 yrs - yes - because of the Brexit debacle - but that is simply how it is.  It is now up to these same ministers to demonstrate to us ALL that, as you say - they are doing the best for the *country *at this time.

It is a pity that many are apparently unable to differentiate between_ 'having a dig' _and_ 'asking a question'_

Click to expand...

I think the problem many have when you discus anything political SiLH is that you often contradict yourself, you will give praise in one sentence then have a back handed dig in the very next one. You will post how you're supporting them then in the very next one say you can't get behind them and don't trust anything they say. Which makes it difficult to separate a question from a dig, when you often have both intertwined.

You nail your colours to the fence then white wash over them with something that completely is the opposite of what claim to be saying.  I genuinely do think you care and have best intentions of the nation at heart, but sometimes you allow all that's past and the opinions of those from the past affect your ability to fully open up about the future you don't allow for separation of topics based on there own merit. It's similar how you're letting in your words Brexit cloud your judgment of the government dealing with Coronavirus, they are not one and the same they must be looked at as wholly separate issues to be dealt with in order of priority.

I didn't want brexit, I didn't want a Tory government, I didn't want a labour one either for that matter based on last manifesto but I can accept Brexit has been passed we lost that vote, this government is the one we're left with to fight this battle with Covid-19 but to hold them to account for a figures head to head with another country that reports differently or to let my own political leanings based on something that was passed as the country voted on it would not be in my own interests or that of helping support a government trying to do its best in this situation.


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

^^^^^^^


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Could be, maybe I am deaf
		
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No probs. That's likely why there was no greater 'fuss' about the number. Unverifiable and probably all sorts of possible reasons for 'no-shows'.


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## rudebhoy (May 5, 2020)

Doon if you listened to Andrew Marr on Sunday , there was a bloke from the Office of National Statistics, who was very interesting to hear
He said that countries are not counting deaths in the same way, some are counting it if Corona is the sole cause of death, others, like us are counting it if Corona is a contributory factor in that death

It would obviously be far easier if all countries could use the same method of counting,  until that happens, you are comparing Asparagus and Aubergines

At the end of all this the only way to tell will be to compare the number of deaths over a period of time, with averages from past years
and the ratio of deaths to population numbers

In the meantime, spinning the numbers to your own political agenda, helps nobody[/QUOTE]


I agree that comparisons with other countries are flawed. However the fact is that the ONS are telling us that as of April 24, the real UK figure was 32,000 dead, while Johnson is congratulating us for "succeeding in avoiding the awful tragedy seen in other countries". Notwithstanding he is comparing us against other countries, that is an appalling piece of spin by anyone's standards. Maybe he should read your last sentence.


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## i*windows (May 5, 2020)

in Germany we get a daily new case record sent to us via SMS if you subscribe to it. Which is pretty useful if you want to track the trends yourself


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



*I think the problem many have when you discus anything political SiLH is that you often contradict yourself, you will give praise in one sentence then have a back handed dig in the very next one*. You will post how you're supporting them then in the very next one say you can't get behind them and don't trust anything they say. Which makes it difficult to separate a question from a dig, when you often have both intertwined.

You nail your colours to the fence then white wash over them with something that completely is the opposite of what claim to be saying.  I genuinely do think you care and have best intentions of the nation at heart, but sometimes you allow all that's past and the opinions of those from the past affect your ability to fully open up about the future you don't allow for separation of topics based on there own merit. It's similar how you're letting in your words Brexit cloud your judgment of the government dealing with Coronavirus, they are not one and the same they must be looked at as wholly separate issues to be dealt with in order of priority.

I didn't want brexit, I didn't want a Tory government, I didn't want a labour one either for that matter based on last manifesto but I can accept Brexit has been passed we lost that vote, this government is the one we're left with to fight this battle with Covid-19 but to hold them to account for a figures head to head with another country that reports differently or to let my own political leanings based on something that was passed as the country voted on it would not be in my own interests or that of helping support a government trying to do its best in this situation.
		
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I have explained many times that I am conflicted.  I know I must trust in people that I frankly do not particularly trust.  That I might not trust them does not however stop me from praising them for the good stuff - and it does not stop me for ask questions of them when I am not so sure.


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think the problem many have when you discus anything political SiLH is that you often contradict yourself, you will give praise in one sentence then have a back handed dig in the very next one. You will post how you're supporting them then in the very next one say you can't get behind them and don't trust anything they say. Which makes it difficult to separate a question from a dig, when you often have both intertwined.

You nail your colours to the fence then white wash over them with something that completely is the opposite of what claim to be saying.  I genuinely do think you care and have best intentions of the nation at heart, but sometimes you allow all that's past and the opinions of those from the past affect your ability to fully open up about the future you don't allow for separation of topics based on there own merit. It's similar how you're letting in your words Brexit cloud your judgment of the government dealing with Coronavirus, they are not one and the same they must be looked at as wholly separate issues to be dealt with in order of priority.

I didn't want brexit, I didn't want a Tory government, I didn't want a labour one either for that matter based on last manifesto but I can accept Brexit has been passed we lost that vote, this government is the one we're left with to fight this battle with Covid-19 but to hold them to account for a figures head to head with another country that reports differently or to let my own political leanings based on something that was passed as the country voted on it would not be in my own interests or that of helping support a government trying to do its best in this situation.
		
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That approach could also be described as 'unbiased' - praising where it is due, but not totally trusting either what they say or what their motives for saying it really are! Not (totally) trusting politicians (of any flavour) is pretty sensible imo! 

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of anti-Brexiters HAVE moved on, if not to a 'delighted', then at lest an 'accepted' one. But the entire process did little, if anything, to improve the general public's 'trust' of politicians in general (save, perhaps, imo, the bunch of Tory rebels who stuck to their beliefs and 'crossed the floor' - though others might consider them 'traitors'!). In fact, I believe overall 'trust' of politicians has probably declined - and quite significantly and will likely decrease further - as a result of the Brexit issue! It's being 'tested' again and so soon after Brexit that the 'trust' issue is still significant. 

Oh, and Labour's daft, 'Union preference' oriented method of Leader selection produced a disaster imo. Hopefully, the new one - still decided by that process - can overcome Corbyn's frailties, as an effective Opposition is essential to (my view of) democracy!


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have explained many times that I am conflicted.  I know I must trust in people that I frankly do not particularly trust.  That I might not trust them does not however stop me from praising them for the good stuff - and it does not stop me for ask questions of them when I am not so sure.
		
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Better that approach than blindly/unthinkingly following (sheep-like) to slaughter - at least imo!


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have explained many times that I am conflicted.  I know I must trust in people that I frankly do not particularly trust.  That I might not trust them does not however stop me from praising them for the good stuff - and it does not stop me for ask questions of them when I am not so sure.
		
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Questions isn't an issue SiLH and every government should be questioned, but when you lace the same post with a question and a dig, ultimately the dig gets more responses. Plus you still have to separate issues Brexit isn't Covid-19 each issue must be judge and dealt with accordingly not as one and the same. It also doesn't help when you question sanity of people voting a certain way by liking them to sheep.

Plus being conflicted isn't a bad thing if anything it should help you remain more abject and judge each thing on merit, however the conflict you post doesn't come across that you have issue with the situation but more as though the conflict is you can't let yourself agree with the government. Its as though the conflict isn't with the government at all but that its in your own political beliefs.

My dad is the same he refuses to vote Tory because his dad and his family are Labour yet he didn't agree with any of the Labour manifesto at last  GE, is an adamant brexiteer and prefer what Tories offered. So who did he vote for Labour! Because he was to conflicted personally to vote for the party actually offering what he wanted because they were Tories.

I mention my dad as to not single you out as you're far from alone in those feelings but as a nation we all need to learn to evolve and somehow look beyond the party in name and vote for what we truly believe. In my lifetime I've voted Labour, Tory & Lib Dem, even now I'd say my political leanings are probably more Lib Dem than either main party. But we are a long way as a nation from ever being unbiased or agreeable.

I've probably waffled to much now but as I've said I honestly believe you have nations best interests at heart and want what's best for us all and with the work you & your wife do through charity or your church your more of an example to us all what a kind heart and nature can be, but all I would perhaps suggest is next time your conflicted take time to think on that before posting the questions with a dig interlaced then you may get a better debate and not get so many on here effectively call you out on something where you probably have the best intentions.

P. S great news on Mrs Hogie btw 👍🏻 every one else sorry for the long post 🤣


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That approach could also be described as 'unbiased' - praising where it is due, but not totally trusting either what they say or what their motives for saying it really are! Not (totally) trusting politicians (of any flavour) is pretty sensible imo!

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of anti-Brexiters HAVE moved on, if not to a 'delighted', then at lest an 'accepted' one. But the entire process did little, if anything, to improve the general public's 'trust' of politicians in general (save, perhaps, imo, the bunch of Tory rebels who stuck to their beliefs and 'crossed the floor' - though others might consider them 'traitors'!). In fact, I believe overall 'trust' of politicians has probably declined - and quite significantly and will likely decrease further - as a result of the Brexit issue! It's being 'tested' again and so soon after Brexit that the 'trust' issue is still significant.

Oh, and Labour's daft, 'Union preference' oriented method of Leader selection produced a disaster imo. Hopefully, the new one - still decided by that process - can overcome Corbyn's frailties, as an effective Opposition is essential to (my view of) democracy!
		
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As i mentioned in my above albeit a little lengthy reply to SiLH, absolutely nothing wrong with conflict or questions both are very good to have, but lacing questions with a dig, takes away credibility of the questions and people merely jump on the dig, and I'll hands up admit to having been guilty of doing that.

Now isn't the time to debate brexit or use it as a yardstick to judge government in during Covid-19 that's all my point is.

As for your last paragraph spot on in their selection process and essential opposition to effective government. Completely agree with you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The contract tracers will be civil servants and mostly call center staff. You have a test, you prove positive, phone rings if your not an app user and you are asked where/who you may have been with over the last - 5? days then the fun(tracing) will begin. Well that's how or MP explained it on her daily FB briefings.
		
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So the contact tracers won't be using the phone/app IDs that the infected persons phone has logged?  Or that is what the tracers will do if the individual the infected person mentions does not have the app.  So the individuals phone is not linked to an App ID?  For App users is the App ID linked to a phone number and stored on a central database.  So when an App user is tested positive, his App record can be examined and all proximate users logged against the person tested positive are pulled up - they will each have an associated phone number that the tracers can use to contact all those proximate persons?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Questions isn't an issue SiLH and every government should be questioned, but when you lace the same post with a question and a dig, ultimately the dig gets more responses. Plus you still have to separate issues Brexit isn't Covid-19 each issue must be judge and dealt with accordingly not as one and the same. It also doesn't help when you question sanity of people voting a certain way by liking them to sheep.

Plus being conflicted isn't a bad thing if anything it should help you remain more abject and judge each thing on merit, however the conflict you post doesn't come across that you have issue with the situation but more as though the conflict is you can't let yourself agree with the government. Its as though the conflict isn't with the government at all but that its in your own political beliefs.

My dad is the same he refuses to vote Tory because his dad and his family are Labour yet he didn't agree with any of the Labour manifesto at last  GE, is an adamant brexiteer and prefer what Tories offered. So who did he vote for Labour! Because he was to conflicted personally to vote for the party actually offering what he wanted because they were Tories.

I mention my dad as to not single you out as you're far from alone in those feelings but as a nation we all need to learn to evolve and somehow look beyond the party in name and vote for what we truly believe. In my lifetime I've voted Labour, Tory & Lib Dem, even now I'd say my political leanings are probably more Lib Dem than either main party. But we are a long way as a nation from ever being unbiased or agreeable.

I've probably waffled to much now but as I've said I honestly believe you have nations best interests at heart and want what's best for us all and with the work you & your wife do through charity or your church your more of an example to us all what a kind heart and nature can be, but all I would perhaps suggest is next time your conflicted take time to think on that before posting the questions with a dig interlaced then you may get a better debate and not get so many on here effectively call you out on something where you probably have the best intentions.

P. S great news on Mrs Hogie btw 👍🏻 every one else sorry for the long post 🤣
		
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Yes I will ask a question of a minister - though in truth I am not sure I have asked that many on this forum - but that is not the same as having a dig.  

Simply highlighting the FACT that many people do not trust our PM and many of his ministers and advisors is not having a dig; neither is asking a question or in any way having a doubt over what I am told _having a dig_.  It is simply seeking clarification to enable me to NOT doubt.  

The government must surely understand that there are many who feel as I do and therefore they must try and avoid wherever possible making statements or claims that could be considered as being of doubtful provenance or basis.  Just don't do it.  Which is why I considered the spin around the 120,000 tests a day on 30th April as stupid as it was unnecessary.

Many thanks on my Mrs - yes it was a great relief.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			As i mentioned in my above albeit a little lengthy reply to SiLH, absolutely nothing wrong with conflict or questions both are very good to have, but lacing questions with a dig, takes away credibility of the questions and people merely jump on the dig, and I'll hands up admit to having been guilty of doing that.

Now isn't the time to debate brexit or use it as a yardstick to judge government in during Covid-19 that's all my point is.

As for your last paragraph spot on in their selection process and essential opposition to effective government. Completely agree with you.
		
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I am not using Brexit as a debating point.  That's done and dusted. Gone.  But for me Brexit (or rather the debate and those involved) remains the _source _of the distrust I hold for some.  And that's just how it is.


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I will ask a question of a minister - though in truth I am not sure I have asked that many on this forum - but that is not the same as having a dig.

Simply highlighting the FACT that many people do not trust our PM and many of his ministers and advisors is not having a dig; neither is asking a question or in any way having a doubt over what I am told _having a dig_.  It is simply seeking clarification to enable me to NOT doubt.

The government must surely understand that there are many who feel as I do and therefore they must try and avoid wherever possible making statements or claims that could be considered as being of doubtful provenance or basis.  Just don't do it.  Which is why I considered the spin around the 120,000 tests a day on 30th April as stupid as it was unnecessary.

Many thanks on my Mrs - yes it was a great relief.
		
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I think perhaps you may need to read back over your own posts then if you cannot see  where the digs are being made or what you say is being responded to. The fact so many people respond to the comments would suggest the digs subtle and interlaced into your questions or otherwise are there.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not using Brexit as a debating point.  That's done and dusted. Gone.  But for me Brexit (or rather the debate and those involved) remains the source of the distrust I hold for some.  And that's just how it is.
		
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I never said you were using as a debating point merely allowing it to cloud your judgement of the current situation which you've agreed with me on 3 times.

I'm not going to clog this thread up further with us going back and forth. As i said i believe you have the best intentions and that's what matters.


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## drdel (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So the contact tracers won't be using the phone/app IDs that the infected persons phone has logged?  Or that is what the tracers will do if the individual the infected person mentions does not have the app.  So the individuals phone is not linked to an App ID?  For App users is the App ID linked to a phone number and stored on a central database.  So when an App user is tested positive, his App record can be examined and all proximate users logged against the person tested positive are pulled up - they will each have an associated phone number that the tracers can use to contact all those proximate persons?
		
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I think each phone will have a randomly generated code. Its the phone that is traced when some one notifies the NHS of potential covid19 symptoms. The tracers then try to notify the other phones that have been at the same time and location for a declared period of time. It is only then the phone's owner is identified and texted advice.


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

For the conspiracy theorist- oh dear

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-participants-of-sage-and-related-sub-groups


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

Doon if you listened to Andrew Marr on Sunday , there was a bloke from the Office of National Statistics, who was very interesting to hear
He said that countries are not counting deaths in the same way, some are counting it if Corona is the sole cause of death, others, like us are counting it if Corona is a contributory factor in that death

It would obviously be far easier if all countries could use the same method of counting,  until that happens, you are comparing Asparagus and Aubergines

At the end of all this the only way to tell will be to compare the number of deaths over a period of time, with averages from past years
and the ratio of deaths to population numbers

In the meantime, spinning the numbers to your own political agenda, helps nobody[/QUOTE]



 Jings I seem to have lost the plot on cut and pace today, no drink partaken...….yet.

The bit you quoted was not my words......I made a mess out of cut and paste.
You did not show my comments.
Now I am unsure if you and Wolfie are having a go at me or Boris Johnson for comparing CV numbers from different countries for our own political agendas.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think perhaps you may need to read back over your own posts then if you cannot see  where the digs are being made or what you say is being responded to. The fact so many people respond to the comments would suggest the digs subtle and interlaced into your questions or otherwise are there.



I never said you were using as a debating point merely allowing it to cloud your judgement of the current situation which you've agreed with me on 3 times.

I'm not going to clog this thread up further with us going back and forth. As i said i believe you have the best intentions and that's what matters.
		
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I actually do...


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So the contact tracers won't be using the phone/app IDs that the infected persons phone has logged?  Or that is what the tracers will do if the individual the infected person mentions does not have the app.  So the individuals phone is not linked to an App ID?  For App users is the App ID linked to a phone number and stored on a central database.  So when an App user is tested positive, his App record can be examined and all proximate users logged against the person tested positive are pulled up - they will each have an associated phone number that the tracers can use to contact all those proximate persons?
		
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Info https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-test-track-and-trace-plan-launched-on-isle-of-wight

Vid at bottom


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			For the conspiracy theorist- oh dear

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-participants-of-sage-and-related-sub-groups

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You'll be referring to the fact that some have not given permission for their names to be given?  Frankly I don't really care.   But you are right @OS ...

So maybe the government could tell us how many who have not given their permission are advisors.  See how easy it is...if I actually really cared...


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings I seem to have lost the plot on cut and pace today, no drink partaken...….yet.

The bit you quoted was not my words......I made a mess out of cut and paste.
You did not show my comments.
Now I am unsure if you and Wolfie are having a go at me or Boris Johnson for comparing CV numbers from different countries for our own political agendas. 

Click to expand...

I would say choosing not to compare numbers is removal of political bias because we don't think it should be used to hold government accountable because you can't compare accurately but at same time government shouldn't be using it either...

Therefore the only agenda is to stop both government and us mere mortals using either as a weapon or a pat on back tool.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I would say choosing not to compare numbers is removal of political bias because we don't think it should be used to hold government accountable because you can't compare accurately but at same time government shouldn't be using it either...

Therefore the only agenda is to stop both government and us mere mortals using either as a weapon or a pat on back tool.
		
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Ah but I did not mention numbers I mentioned the words used by Johnson.
Glad you agree with me that Johnson should not be making comparisons.


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)




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## spongebob59 (May 5, 2020)

Just seen the footage of the ae r lingus flight on the news.

Why on earth would anyone want to put themselves in the situation ??


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## Old Skier (May 5, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen the footage of the ae r lingus flight on the news.

Why on earth would anyone want to put themselves in the situation ??
		
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Get out of Belfast perhaps


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## rudebhoy (May 5, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen the footage of the ae r lingus flight on the news.

Why on earth would anyone want to put themselves in the situation ??
		
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Aer Lingus blaming higher than expected demand - don't they monitor how many seats they are selling?


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## Imurg (May 5, 2020)

While the airline is almost entirely to blame.......
Every single one of those passengers had the option to look at the number and seating arrangements on the plane and say...
Sod that, I'm not getting on there even if it costs me the price of the ticket...
That would have been my stance.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			While the airline is almost entirely to blame.......
Every single one of those passengers had the option to look at the number and seating arrangements on the plane and say...
Sod that, I'm not getting on there even if it costs me the price of the ticket...
That would have been my stance.
		
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But then they wouldn't have been able to take pictures, film it, post it on Facebook and share their outrage at how selfish everyone else was by wanting to fly 🙄


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## Imurg (May 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			But then they wouldn't have been able to take pictures, film it, post it on Facebook and share their outrage at how selfish everyone else was by wanting to fly 🙄
		
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And that is part of the problem. Ok, a fairly minor part I guess but not enough people have been taking their own share of responsibility for not spreading this virus around.
We've seen the pictures of parks full of people, swarms of people at shops, house parties, people spitting and coughing at police and ambulance crews the list goes on.
How many of these deaths could have been avoided by these peop,e taking a bit of responsibility and playing by the rules..?
We'll never know
Yes, the government have made mistakes but so has the Great British public...


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## User62651 (May 5, 2020)

Not a great day for Govt.
Well short on 100k tests.
UK firmly into 2nd worst in world for covid deaths. Sadly a high number of deaths since yesterday.
Hancock's rather snippy and mildly sexist 'mind your tone' comment to a female opposition MP and A+E doctor with a legitimate question in commons getting much coverage.
Now top SAGE scientist resigning over encouraging his married lover to break his social distancing rules and pop over. Like the Scottish CMO case again but with some sleaze thrown in.
Boris AWOL again it seems, our invisible PM.

Just all seems a bit hapless at the mo.


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## Mudball (May 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Not a great day for Govt.
*Well short on 100k tests.*
UK firmly into 2nd worst in world for covid deaths. Sadly a high number of deaths since yesterday.
Hancock's rather snippy and mildly sexist 'mind your tone' comment to a female opposition MP and A+E doctor with a legitimate question in commons getting much coverage.
Now top SAGE scientist resigning over encouraging his married lover to break his social distancing rules and pop over. Like the Scottish CMO case again but with some sleaze thrown in.
Boris AWOL again it seems, our invisible PM.

Just all seems a bit hapless at the mo.
		
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The whole 100k achievement seems rather stage managed event.  They probably got every army personnel on Covid duty to test themselves on that day.  Now that we have hit the milestone, the rest of the 'business as usual' testing infrastructure is still catching up..  in a few days/weeks, we will reach 100k as it would have if Hancock had not promised the April end deadline 

I have skipped a few briefings now, as i think it is a farce.  I check the data online and it seems heading the right way.  

BoJo and his Orange friend now have a special relationship on top of the leaderboard.   Only time will tell if BoJo managed to imitate his idol - Churchill - in being unable to stop preventable death (Bengal famine)


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## Slab (May 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I will ask a question of a minister - though in truth I am not sure I have asked that many on this forum - but that is not the same as having a dig. 

Simply highlighting the FACT that many people do not trust our PM and many of his ministers and advisors is not having a dig; neither is asking a question or in any way having a doubt over what I am told _having a dig_. * It is simply seeking clarification to enable me to NOT doubt.* 

*The government must surely understand that there are many who feel as I do and therefore they must try and avoid wherever possible making statements or claims that could be considered as being of doubtful provenance or basis.*  Just don't do it.  Which is why I considered the spin around the 120,000 tests a day on 30th April as stupid as it was unnecessary.

Many thanks on my Mrs - yes it was a great relief.
		
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May I ask what happened that gave you a belief that any PM, politician or government cares whether you, I or anyone else has doubts about what they say. Or that they should specifically avoid making statements/claims that could lead you to doubt its provenance? _(remember we're talking about politicians here)_

Which PM/Politician/Government set this benchmark for you that their statements and claims were 'beyond doubt' that now allows you to believe all PMs/politicians/governments can be held to that standard? Has there ever been a PM/politician/government that has provided statements & claims that are beyond doubt? I worry that you seek a utopia that has not, and never will, exist


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## rudebhoy (May 6, 2020)

The number of people tested on Monday as per yesterday's figures was 69k. This figure has gone down every weekday since the high of 88k last Thursday. I know the figures are generally lower for weekends, but that's 2 weekdays in a row the figure has gone down which is concerning. Has any explanation been given for the drop?

On a different topic, glad to see Prof Ferguson had the balls to resign immediately, unlike the Scottish CMO, but honestly, what an idiot, and what a terrible message it gives to those reading the sordid details over their cornflakes this morning.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 6, 2020)

There is the Scottish Viceroy demanding that England follow Scots plans for exiting lockdown.........….I think

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/leaving-lockdown-in-lockstep


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The number of people tested on Monday as per yesterday's figures was 69k. This figure has gone down every weekday since the high of 88k last Thursday. I know the figures are generally lower for weekends, but that's 2 weekdays in a row the figure has gone down which is concerning. Has any explanation been given for the drop?
...
		
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My belief is that once they 'achieved' the target (which they didn't, they simply manufactured the total using whatever numbers worked) they lost urgency about actually 'achieving' them! Hopefully, once the numbers settle back to their real (un-pushed) value, they'll start increasing as testing availability and promotion works 'naturally'.


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## drdel (May 6, 2020)

You cant test more people than present for a test.


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## Foxholer (May 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			You cant test more people than present for a test.
		
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Apparently you can! By post even!

Encouraging folk to get tesated ahould have been (and presumably was/is) part of the 'campaign'!


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## funkycoldmedina (May 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			You cant test more people than present for a test.
		
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You can if you make it more accessible.


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## rudebhoy (May 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Apparently you can! By post!

Encouraging folk to get tesated ahould have been (and presumably was/is) part of the 'campaign'!
		
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you could also be proactive by going round care homes and testing everyone there. Stories persist in the media about care homes being unable to get tests.


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## drdel (May 6, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			You can if you make it more accessible.
		
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But we are talking about what has been, not what could have been . If more people had been sent or requested tests the capacity is there to do it.


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## fundy (May 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is the Scottish Viceroy demanding that England follow Scots plans for exiting lockdown.........….I think

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/leaving-lockdown-in-lockstep

Click to expand...


that would be just a few hours before Sturgeon went and announced Scotlands plan ahead of everyone else again


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## Slab (May 6, 2020)

Is it just a headline soundbite or is the PM serious about starting to lift UK lockdown from Monday

That would be incredible!  

_(I'll leave you to decide if 'incredible in this context is good or bad)_


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## Imurg (May 6, 2020)

Well, he said that a statement will be made on Sunday about relaxing the lockdown, some measures will come into play on Monday 
So the speculation begins.......or continues.......


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## Doon frae Troon (May 6, 2020)

fundy said:



			that would be just a few hours before Sturgeon went and announced Scotlands plan ahead of everyone else again
		
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Yup, Nicola has always been ahead of the game when it comes to CV.
70% trust for Scot Gov against 54% for Westminster Gov....…..that is a big credibility            gap.


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## Imurg (May 6, 2020)

You just can't help yourself can you..........


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

fundy said:



			that would be just a few hours before Sturgeon went and announced Scotlands plan ahead of everyone else again
		
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You know the plastic jock is just talking rubbish again, the SNP Westminister leader made great shakes by us all working together today during question time so either Ms Sturdgeon is losing her grip in the party or she is jumping the gun or, which is more likely she is acting on information that she is receiving at the Cobra meetings.


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## Red scorpion (May 6, 2020)

Of course she is a head of the game,she speaks  at 1pm uk speak at 5pm .simples


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## User62651 (May 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You know the plastic jock is just talking rubbish again, the SNP Westminister leader made great shakes by us all working together today during question time so either Ms Sturdgeon is losing her grip in the party or she is jumping the gun or, which is more likely she is acting on information that she is receiving at the Cobra meetings.
		
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Why does it bother people in England what she says, continually told she is an irrelevance but gets name called and constant criticism too from EngTories, why is that? Does she even make the news in England? She is there as FM to represent everything devolved to us in Scotland, including health. If she opts to do things a little differently we can judge her and her party on that at the 2021 Holyrood elections and give her the boot if needs be. 
We may see a Starmer bounce for Labour in 2021 but I seriously doubt there will any Johnson benefit for ScotTories next year, man is toxic and inept. 
The daily brief up here is a good 4 hours earlier than London, not surprising things get announced earlier therefore.


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## Hobbit (May 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yup, Nicola has always been ahead of the game when it comes to CV.
70% trust for Scot Gov against 54% for Westminster Gov....…..that is a big credibility            gap.

Click to expand...

Or gullibility gap, depending on how you want to spin it.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 6, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Why does it bother people in England what she says, continually told she is an irrelevance but gets name called and constant criticism too from EngTories, why is that? Does she even make the news in England? She is there as FM to represent everything devolved to us in Scotland, including health. If she opts to do things a little differently we can judge her and her party on that at the 2021 Holyrood elections and give her the boot if needs be.
We may see a Starmer bounce for Labour in 2021 but I seriously doubt there will any Johnson benefit for ScotTories next year, man is toxic and inept.
The daily brief up here is a good 4 hours earlier than London, not surprising things get announced earlier therefore.
		
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Well said.

By saying steps behind, I was inferring that when England moved into lockdown they were 2/3 days behind Ireland\NI\Wales and Scotland.
I felt that Scotland should have taken the initial steps at least 3/4 days before they did....Cheltenham being an example.
Johnson was reluctantly pressurised into moving even then, which in IMVHO made him at least a week behind where a more switched on leader would have been.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2020)

Slab said:



			May I ask what happened that gave you a belief that any PM, politician or government cares whether you, I or anyone else has doubts about what they say. Or that they should specifically avoid making statements/claims that could lead you to doubt its provenance? _(remember we're talking about politicians here)_

Which PM/Politician/Government set this benchmark for you that their statements and claims were 'beyond doubt' that now allows you to believe all PMs/politicians/governments can be held to that standard? Has there ever been a PM/politician/government that has provided statements & claims that are beyond doubt? I worry that you seek a utopia that has not, and never will, exist
		
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Don't disagree...

But as the government needs to try and get, and keep, us _ALL_ on board with their strategy for getting the country through this time, it is in my view simply imperative that they don't do silly 'stunts' or make claims that can easily be undermined.  Just don't do it.  

The spin around claims that politicians traditionally say and the claims they make, are supported by their friends in the media and are in any case only aimed at maintaining their core constituency and building as best they can the margin on top of that.  That works in normal politics - but it can't work today and with coronavirus - when the government needs a lot more than it's normal 40% of the public buy-in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Apparently you can! By post even!

Encouraging folk to get tesated ahould have been (and presumably was/is) part of the 'campaign'!
		
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As is taking the testing to the people - in the care homes etc. The government is doing this - but not, it seems, particularly effectively at the moment given so many care homes are struggling on the PPE and testing front (oops repeated rudebhoy's similar observation).

By committing to a target you need to have a strategy that will enable you to hit that target with a high degree of confidence - not just _hope _that you will hit it - especially when your commitment requires significant stuff outside of your control to happen.  Don't make yourself hostage to fortune.  Just don't do it.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Why does it bother people in England what she says, continually told she is an irrelevance but gets name called and constant criticism too from EngTories, why is that? Does she even make the news in England? She is there as FM to represent everything devolved to us in Scotland, including health. If she opts to do things a little differently we can judge her and her party on that at the 2021 Holyrood elections and give her the boot if needs be.
We may see a Starmer bounce for Labour in 2021 but I seriously doubt there will any Johnson benefit for ScotTories next year, man is toxic and inept.
The daily brief up here is a good 4 hours earlier than London, not surprising things get announced earlier therefore.
		
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I think if you read my post I you'll find I wasn't criticizing her nor am I English. I presume you were referring to me as you quoted my post.


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## Hobbit (May 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As is taking the testing to the people - in the care homes etc. The government is doing this - but not, it seems, particularly effectively at the moment given so many care homes are struggling on the PPE and testing front (oops repeated rudebhoy's similar observation).

By committing to a target you need to have a strategy that will enable you to hit that target with a high degree of confidence - not just _hope _that you will hit it - especially when your commitment requires significant stuff outside of your control to happen.  Don't make yourself hostage to fortune.  Just don't do it.
		
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Exceed expectations, and everyone is happy. Fail to meet them and its a busted flush.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well said.

By saying steps behind, I was inferring that when England moved into lockdown they were 2/3 days behind Ireland\NI\Wales and Scotland.
I felt that Scotland should have taken the initial steps at least 3/4 days before they did....Cheltenham being an example.
Johnson was reluctantly pressurised into moving even then, which in IMVHO made him at least a week behind where a more switched on leader would have been.
		
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As the UK (inc. Scotland) went into lockdown on 23 March in what way  were Scotland, NI,or Wales ahead of England?


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			As the UK (inc. Scotland) went into lockdown on 23 March in what way  were Scotland, NI,or Wales ahead of England?
		
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Shhhs it's a game, he will claim your on ignore and never respond


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Exceed expectations, and everyone is happy. Fail to meet them and its a busted flush.
		
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...and today - tests processed yesterday 69,000...

Don't know what's going on here, especially as the PM earlier today in the HoC set a target of 200,000 tests a day by the end of the month, for #10 to later row back on that saying that he was meaning to say 'capacity' not processed.  For goodness sake...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...s-per-day-target-by-end-of-june-a4433691.html 

And of course Farage is ranting that the media reps on the briefing are not asking the searching questions in respect of the government's failure on the testing front...where is LK (of the BBC) when you need her 

Well he should understand the media better than most.

And in answer to his question - as it was Jenrick doing the briefing and some of the media present on the briefing were regional-based - they asked questions of importance to their region and in the remit of the Jenrick to answer - so focussed on Housing, Communities and Local Government - which in truth is what we'd want asked as we would have a chance of getting a proper and informed answer.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and today - tests processed yesterday 69,000...

Don't know what's going on here, especially as the PM earlier today in the HoC set a target of 200,000 tests a day by the end of the month, for #10 to later row back on that saying that he was meaning to say 'capacity' not processed.  For goodness sake...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...s-per-day-target-by-end-of-june-a4433691.html

And of course Farage is ranting that the media reps on the briefing are not asking the searching questions in respect of the government's failure on the testing front...where is LK (of the BBC) when you need her 

Well he should understand the media better than most.

And in answer to his question - as it was Jenrick doing the briefing and some of the media present on the briefing were regional-based - they asked questions of importance to their region and in the remit of the Jenrick to answer - so focussed on Housing, Communities and Local Government - which in truth is what we'd want asked as we would have a chance of getting a proper and informed answer.
		
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Job for the army, fix bayonets and march everyone down to a testing center.

With so many public sector workers claiming that they are having to self isolate due to having symptoms why do you @SwingsitlikeHogan  think capacity has outgrown demand.


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## Wolf (May 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Shhhs it's a game, he will claim your on ignore and never respond
		
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You're of course right, he's never let something simple like the facts get in the way of a blind view....


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## Lord Tyrion (May 6, 2020)

At the moment, I think, they are only testing people who believe they are showing symptoms. What if we don't have 100k people each day who believe they are showing symptoms? 

The interesting question is how many want tests but can't get them. Is that not more relevant?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Or gullibility gap, depending on how you want to spin it.

Click to expand...

Agree that 54% is pretty high for Westminster Gov,


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## rudebhoy (May 6, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The number of people tested on Monday as per yesterday's figures was 69k. This figure has gone down every weekday since the high of 88k last Thursday. I know the figures are generally lower for weekends, but that's 2 weekdays in a row the figure has gone down which is concerning. Has any explanation been given for the drop?
		
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Only 57,006 people tested yesterday. Meanwhile care homes are still saying they can't get tests booked.

What is going on?

And before some clever clogs comes along to blame lack of demand, if that really is the case, why not ramp up front line testing and test NHS staff daily?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Why does it bother people in England what she says, continually told she is an irrelevance but gets name called and constant criticism too from EngTories, why is that? Does she even make the news in England? She is there as FM to represent everything devolved to us in Scotland, including health. If she opts to do things a little differently we can judge her and her party on that at the 2021 Holyrood elections and give her the boot if needs be.
We may see a Starmer bounce for Labour in 2021 but I seriously doubt there will any Johnson benefit for ScotTories next year, man is toxic and inept.
The daily brief up here is a good 4 hours earlier than London, not surprising things get announced earlier therefore.
		
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Actually looking at things from down here I think the Scottish FM is getting a pretty positive response.  

In fact my (English) Mrs is quite a Nicola fan - says that she speaks with an authentic voice and fronts up the briefings well and seems on top of her difficult brief.  That she then somewhat undermines her thoughtful stance on the FM by telling me that the white high heels are pretty darned smart, and that the FM presents herself extremely well...well...so be it.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 6, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			As the UK (inc. Scotland) went into lockdown on 23 March in what way  were Scotland, NI,or Wales ahead of England?
		
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Ireland annoiunced the closure of schools on 12 March followed by Scotland, NI and Wales...........obviously forcing Johnson's hand.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ireland annoiunced the closure of schools on 12 March followed by Scotland, NI and Wales...........obviously forcing Johnson's hand.
		
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Or - NI Scotland and Wales were in the same Cobra briefing where the decisions were made


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## drdel (May 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At the moment, I think, they are only testing people who believe they are showing symptoms. What if we don't have 100k people each day who believe they are showing symptoms?

The interesting question is how many want tests but can't get them. Is that not more relevant?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it seems a simple fact that the media and some on here do not want to recognise is the interlocked feedback circular cycle of "production - capacity -demand". The Government has built up a testing capacity in just the same way as the Nigthingale hospitals have created additional treatment capacity: Covid19 cases are well below both the  tests demanded (70k v 120k /day) as well as NHS's ITU hospital bed capacity

People are pleased we have not needed the extra beds in these new hospitals but then moan because we have not yet needed to use the full testing capacity - surely as long as those who need a test are getting the option of a test, the headway in capacity is a good thing. The plan is to add more testing capacity (200k/day in next 3 weeks) so that if the 'track-n-trace' flags up more potential infections then tests are available. Not doubt that will generate more complaints as the detected rate rises because we test and find more.

It is a classic dilemma of knowledge: the more we learn and the harder we look the more we will find yet the more we find the more the knowledge driven actions will be criticised.

At the moment the UK is being rubbished because of the high mortality. The UK is very, very careful to record all deaths related to the virus and is trying to establish the true 'Excess' deaths. Other nations record deaths differently and may not look so hard at verification of cause - especially those deaths occurring outside of hospital settings.


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## Hacker Khan (May 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately it seem a simple fact that the media and some on here do not want to recognise the interlocked feedback circular cycle of "production - capacity -demand". The Government has built up a testing capacity in just the same way as the Nigthingale hospitals have created additional treatment capacity and Covid19 cases are well below both the  tests demanded (70k v 120k /day) as well as NHS's ITU hospital bed capacity

People are pleased we have not needed the extra beds in these new hospitals but then moan because we have not yet needed to use the full testing capacity - surely as long as those who need a test are getting the option of a test, the headway in capacity is a good thing. The plan is to add more testing capacity (200k/day in next 3 weeks) so that if the 'track-n-trace' flags up more potential infections tests are available. Not doubt that will generate more complaints at the detected rate rises because we test and find more.

It is a classic dilemma of knowledge the more we learn and the harder we look the more we will find yet the more we find the more the knowledge driven actions will be criticised.

At the moment the UK is being rubbished because of the high mortality. The UK is very, very careful to record all deaths related to the virus and is trying to establish the 'Excess' deaths. *Other nations record deaths differently and may not look so hard at verification of cause - especially those deaths occurring outside of hospital settings.*

Click to expand...

Any evidence that we are the most thorough when looking at the verification of cause of death outside of hospital settings?


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## drdel (May 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Any evidence that we are the most thorough when looking at the verification of cause of death outside of hospital settings?
		
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Yes. The issues has been raised continuously by Prof Whitty, Prof Ferguson and Prof Van-Tam. and other academics.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ireland annoiunced the closure of schools on 12 March followed by Scotland, NI and Wales...........obviously forcing Johnson's hand.
		
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Scotland announced closure of schools on Friday 20th March, England made the same announcement on Monday 23rd March.

Hardly a significant difference.


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## rudebhoy (May 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes. The issues has been raised continuously by Prof Whitty, Prof Ferguson and Prof Van-Tam. and other academics.
		
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That sounds like opinion, not evidence.

I'm sure if you went to Spain, Italy or the US, their scientists would also say their method of counting is the most accurate.

The FT have estimated that the actual amount of deaths in the UK is more than double what is being reported, so obviously they don't think the method of counting here is exhaustive.


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## Hacker Khan (May 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes. The issues has been raised continuously by Prof Whitty, Prof Ferguson and Prof Van-Tam. and other academics.
		
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So are we a lot more thorough then say Germany?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So are we a lot more thorough then say Germany?
		
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No reason why we shouldn't be. 

But who knows, at the moment there appears to be no "international" standard for collating this information.


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## drdel (May 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So are we a lot more thorough then say Germany?
		
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Some German academics suggest the official numbers may be as much as 10 times too low !! Highlights the real issue of data compatibility and integrity across nations.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Some German academics suggest the official numbers may be as much as 10 times too low !! Highlights the real issue of data compatibility and integrity across nations.
		
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That study was about number of infections I believe not deaths.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So are we a lot more thorough then say Germany?
		
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Who knows, the same as you I or anyone else has any evidence that anyone else is counting accurately or even the same way. 

Life's a mystery


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's fairly academic as they all left it far too late. Boris and Nicola both culpable.
		
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Interested to know what you base that on


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## Hacker Khan (May 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Who knows, the same as you I or anyone else has any evidence that anyone else is counting accurately or even the same way.

Life's a mystery
		
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I'm just going by the official figures from each country that is telling me we have the 2nd worst death toll now after the US and we have missed the testing target for the 4th day now.  And whilst I know that the numbers are not all calculated the same, I can't help thinking up to yet the government are not covering themselves in glory. 

I'm sure Boris will have some excuses ready as he seems that type of person, and I am sure some will lap those up as a get out of jail free for him and the government. But in a global pandemic where results are measured quite harshly in deaths, if it was a league table we currently seem to be staring relegation in the face.


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just going by the official figures from each country that is telling me we have the 2nd worst death toll now after the US and *we have missed the testing target for the 4th day now. * And whilst I know that the numbers are not all calculated the same, I can't help thinking up to yet the government are not covering themselves in glory.

I'm sure Boris will have some excuses ready as he seems that type of person, and I am sure some will lap those up as a get out of jail free for him and the government. But in a global pandemic where results are measured quite harshly in deaths, if it was a league table we currently seem to be staring relegation in the face.
		
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Yes but the capability is there 🙄


Dont be bringing your “party politics” here, strategies changed 😉


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The news
		
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You need to be more specific.

The looney leftie news?The left bias BBC?or that Left rag The times/Sunday times 😉


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## ColchesterFC (May 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just going by the official figures from each country that is telling me we have the 2nd worst death toll now after the US and we have missed the testing target for the 4th day now.  And whilst I know that the numbers are not all calculated the same, I can't help thinking up to yet the government are not covering themselves in glory.

I'm sure Boris will have some excuses ready as he seems that type of person, and I am sure some will lap those up as a get out of jail free for him and the government. But in a global pandemic where results are measured quite harshly in deaths, if it was a league table we currently seem to be staring relegation in the face.
		
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The problem is that the numbers for each country aren't counted in the same way *BUT* the government were the ones that started using the graphs for total deaths to compare us with other countries. Now people are using those same graphs to hang the government out to dry. It's going to be many months (or even years) before all of the information is available to be able to make comparisons with other countries. The true measure of success/failure can only be based on excess deaths for this year compared to previous years. And even then it will be an analysis as to whether the UK with X thousand excess deaths is better or worse than Germany (or any other country) with Y thousand excess deaths.

When it comes to the "league table" it's a bit like looking at the PL table where one team has played 25 matches and comparing that to a team who are 4 points behind but have played three games less. If it's a team at the top of the table then they might make up those points. If it's a team at the bottom of the table then they are less likely to make up those points. Until we, and all other countries, get through this situation comparisons on how each country are dealing with it are futile.


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## bluewolf (May 6, 2020)

We appear to be arguing about goal difference, whilst ignoring the fact that we’re in the relegation places. 

Whatever the reason, we’re performing really, really poorly. And we appear to be discussing our relative position, rather than our actual performance. 

Who gives a flying monkey whether we’re the worst or the 4th worst (or the 6th worst even). We should be ashamed that we’re not arguing about why we’re not the best. British exceptionalism once again to the fore.....


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## funkycoldmedina (May 6, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258087627003179009From the horses mouth


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## drdel (May 6, 2020)

Based upon population the UK is about the same as others and behind Spain. Just as based upon totals the USA is highest but it has millions more people than individual EU nations. Unless you normalise the data it tells us the sum total of nothing! 

We need to focus on each other and do whatever we can to control our own lives and reduce cross infection?


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## ColchesterFC (May 7, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			We appear to be arguing about goal difference, *whilst ignoring the fact that we’re in the relegation places.*

Whatever the reason, we’re performing really, really poorly. And we appear to be discussing our relative position, rather than our actual performance.

Who gives a flying monkey whether we’re the worst or the 4th worst (or the 6th worst even). We should be ashamed that we’re not arguing about why we’re not the best. British exceptionalism once again to the fore.....
		
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But are we? As I mentioned in my previous post, until we get the definitive numbers then we can't make any comparisons. It could turn out that we are in the "relegation places" but until we reach a point where the recorded stats are the same between different countries then we can't know that. 

You're arguing about whether we're the "4th worst" or the "6th worst" or whatever but until the final figures are known then we won't know if that is correct or whether we were indeed one of the top 4 or top 6.


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## Slab (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't disagree...

But as the government needs to try and get, and keep, us _ALL_ on board with their strategy for getting the country through this time, it is in my view simply imperative that they don't do silly 'stunts' or make claims that can easily be undermined.  Just don't do it.

The spin around claims that politicians traditionally say and the claims they make, are supported by their friends in the media and are in any case only aimed at maintaining their core constituency and building as best they can the margin on top of that.  That works in normal politics - but it can't work today and with coronavirus - when the government needs a lot more than it's normal 40% of the public buy-in.
		
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That's the point though, they don't need to keep _All _on board do they, just a majority. By their compliance, their actions and conduct that majority will tow along most of the minority and they'll be on board with the strategy too, leaving just... well folks like you as a vocal minority (& that's not a criticism)

Call it spin, propaganda, marketing or simply hoopla. No PM, Politician or Government is going to give up that tool regardless of the seriousness of the matter at hand (even during World Wars it was used)

We are in serious doodoo with this virus... but it is not the most serious issue the UK has ever faced in modern times, but you expect it to be treated as such


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

BBC reporting this morning that the "Stay At Home" instruction is set to be scrapped. Are we "following the science" or bowing to lockdown fatigue?

It was also reported that the Turkish PPE which the government made great play of having secured, has failed safety tests and the entire consignment of 400,000 gowns is unusable.


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## pendodave (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			BBC reporting this morning that the "Stay At Home" instruction is set to be scrapped. Are we "following the science" or bowing to lockdown fatigue?
		
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The thing is, there's more than one way of looking at the science. This article on the BBC makes a perfectly legitimate case for changing our current strategy. Apologies that there's not enough political content, but by the time I look again there probably will be...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The thing is, there's more than one way of looking at the science. This article on the BBC makes a perfectly legitimate case for changing our current strategy. Apologies that there's not enough political content, but by the time I look again there probably will be...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692

Click to expand...

Yes, my "following the science" was an attempt at irony. Vallance was interviewed the other day and said that SAGE have never presented the cabinet with a single recommendation, instead they present a series of options with likely outcomes, and the politicians choose which one they like best. And then cover their back by saying they are "following the science".

Going back to easing the lockdown, it just feels like BJ has decided to gamble.  Let's just hope it doesn't result in a second spike.


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## pendodave (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Yes, my "following the science" was an attempt at irony. Vallance was interviewed the other day and said that SAGE have never presented the cabinet with a single recommendation, instead they present a series of options with likely outcomes, and the politicians choose which one they like best. And then cover their back by saying they are "following the science".

Going back to easing the lockdown, it just feels like BJ has decided to gamble.  Let's just hope it doesn't result in a second spike.
		
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Apologies, its early and I've stopped watching the briefings so had no context.
Re. The second spike, what I take from the article is that providing the easily identifiable vulnerable are removed from the firing line the rest of us have more chance of dieing from a stroke bought on by the stress of reading forum political threads...


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Apologies, its early and I've stopped watching the briefings so had no context.
Re. The second spike, what I take from the article is that providing the easily identifiable vulnerable are removed from the firing line the rest of us have more chance of dieing from a stroke bought on by the stress of reading forum political threads...
		
Click to expand...

The gist of that article seems to be we should let everyone under 65 out unless they have underlying health issues, but anyone over 65 should stay at home. Thats good news for us "younger" golfers


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## drdel (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Yes, my "following the science" was an attempt at irony. Vallance was interviewed the other day and said that SAGE have never presented the cabinet with a single recommendation, instead they present a series of options with likely outcomes, and the politicians choose which one they like best. And then cover their back by saying they are "following the science".

Going back to easing the lockdown, it just feels like BJ has decided to gamble.  Let's just hope it doesn't result in a second spike.
		
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What else do you expect of a scientific advisory body and a democratically elected government. 

It's exactly how it should work?


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			What else do you expect of a scientific advisory body and a democratically elected government.

It's exactly how it should work?
		
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I have no problem with SAGE presenting the govt with a range of options, and their likely outcomes.

However the next step of choosing which option to take is a political decision. 

Which again is fine, however what I have a problem with is govt ministers repeatedly saying "we are following the science" when in fact they are making political decisions based on a number of options presented by the scientists.

'Following the science" implies there is only one possible course of action, and gives the govt a get-out if it goes wrong - blame bad scientific advice.

The article below is worth a read 

*Scientists criticise UK government's 'following the science' claim*
Ministers accused of abdicating political duty to narrow field of opaque expertise on Covid-19

Experts have voiced growing frustration over the UK government’s claim that it is “following the science”, saying the refrain is being used to abdicate responsibility for political decisions.

They also raised concerns that the views of public health experts were being overlooked, with disproportionate weight given to the views of modellers.

“As a scientist, I hope I never again hear the phrase ‘based on the best science and evidence’ spoken by a politician,” Prof Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh, told the Guardian. “This phrase has become basically meaningless and used to explain anything and everything.”

The government has repeatedly said it is being “led by the science” on decisions ranging from banning mass gatherings to closing schools, the use of face masks and, most recently, the prospects of lifting the lockdown.

However, Sridhar and others argued that scientific views on these topics could be wide-ranging and dependent on a scientist’s field of expertise.

The diversity of scientific views was apparent in March when case numbers were rising rapidly but the government chose not to ban mass gatherings or introduce wide-reaching physical distancing.

“World Health Organization advice, and what we’ve learned from lots of previous outbreaks in low- and middle-income countries, is that the faster you move at the start, the better, because it’s exponential growth,” Sridhar said. “In public health, a test, trace and isolate campaign would’ve been where your mind first went.”

Instead, she said, the government appeared to be basing policy on the presumption of a binary choice between two scenarios, played out in computer models, of either eradicating the virus or it becoming endemic.

Prof Mark Woolhouse, an infectious diseases epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, said modelling had had a disproportionate influence. “I do think scientific advice is driven far too much by epidemiology – and I’m an epidemiologist.

“What we’re not talking about in the same formal, quantitative way are the economic costs, the social costs, the psychological costs of being under lockdown,” he said. “I understand that the government is being advised by economists, psychiatrists and others, but we’re not seeing what that science is telling them. I find that very puzzling.”

Woolhouse said that while it was understandable that saving lives was the top priority, the idea of doing this at any cost was naive.

“With any disease there is a trade-off. Public health is largely about that trade-off. What’s happening here is that both sides of the equation are so enormous and so damaging that the routine public health challenge of balancing costs and benefits is thrown into incredibly stark relief. Yet that balance has to be found.”

Others expressed concern about the lack of transparency around the evidence affecting decision-making. “We don’t know who sits on Sage [the government’s scientific advisory group for emergencies], we see very little of the papers that go to Sage,” said Prof Sheila Bird, the former programme leader of the Medical Research Council’s biostatistics unit at the University of Cambridge. “That scientific underpinning is not evident.”

Sridhar said the failure to fully consider the perspectives of experts beyond epidemiology may have contributed to misguided decisions. Models appear not to have factored in the role of hospital staff shortages, which may have diverted attention from the urgent need for adequate personal protective equipment, she said.

The concept of shielding the most vulnerable “looks beautiful” in models, she said, but in reality care homes are facing major outbreaks and multigenerational households are struggling to isolate the vulnerable. “You can’t take these people out of the system and isolate them as if they were a data point on a graph,” she said.

“There’s a real problem if you have a collection of people from the same background, the same field, the same institutions; that can lead to blindspots and groupthink,” Sridhar added. “Diversity is clearly important for better decision-making.”

Some fear the prominence given to science in supporting political decisions risks burdening scientists with unrealistic expectations and could ultimately erode trust in their expertise.

“The government isn’t using expertise simply to validate claims, it also appears to be using it as an insurance policy,” Prof Christina Boswell, a political scientist at the University of Edinburgh, wrote this week. “If things go wrong – and the curve gets too steep – it will be the scientific advice that is to blame.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cise-uk-government-over-following-the-science


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## Swinglowandslow (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Yes, my "following the science" was an attempt at irony. Vallance was interviewed the other day and said that SAGE have never presented the cabinet with a single recommendation, instead they present a series of options with likely outcomes, and the politicians choose which one they like best. And then cover their back by saying they are "following the science".

Going back to easing the lockdown, it just feels like BJ has decided to gamble.  Let's just hope it doesn't result in a second spike.
		
Click to expand...

Would you like to clearly nail your colours to the mast and tell us which strategy you want to see.
The lockdown to continue as it is.  Or,
An easing of the lockdown, which you are inferring is a gamble, I.e. Recklessness by the government.
 It is something of a gamble, but that is because of the nature of the virus and not knowing exactly how the populace will behave.

We have only heard speculation as to the form of easing. Whenever it comes it will come with caveats. I  suspect there won't be a burning of bridges,
And most importantly, there will be a plea for the behaviour of people to stick within the easement guidelines.
When the last thing doesn't happen, I will blame the selfish idiots who refuse to think of others. 
Who will you blame , I wonder?


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## Hacker Khan (May 7, 2020)

Interesting read. Unless you are over 65 I suppose.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692


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## Doon frae Troon (May 7, 2020)

The one area of coming out of lockdown that needs addressing pronto is the use of public toilets.
I gather they are all closed and the usual other outlets such as cafe's shops and pubs are either closed or the ones who are not closed are refusing public use.
Not been out and about since 13th March so how do motorway service stations etc operate and do you feel safe using them.
I know Fish highlighted this problem for delivery drivers.


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## DRW (May 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The one area of coming out of lockdown that needs addressing pronto is the use of public toilets.
I gather they are all closed and the usual other outlets such as cafe's shops and pubs are either closed or the ones who are not closed are refusing public use.
Not been out and about since 13th March so how do motorway service stations etc operate and do you feel safe using them.
I know Fish highlighted this problem for delivery drivers.
		
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Seriously take out with you a bottle or bucket or camping toilet if you have a van, easy as that.

Not what I would ever dream of doing before, but needs must.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The one area of coming out of lockdown that needs addressing pronto is the use of public toilets.
I gather they are all closed and the usual other outlets such as cafe's shops and pubs are either closed or the ones who are not closed are refusing public use.
Not been out and about since 13th March so how do motorway service stations etc operate and do you feel safe using them.
I know Fish highlighted this problem for delivery drivers.
		
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Public toilets in Chesham town centre are open, at least they were on Friday 👍


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## Slab (May 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The one area of coming out of lockdown that needs addressing pronto is the use of public toilets.
I gather they are all closed and the usual other outlets such as cafe's shops and pubs are either closed or the ones who are not closed are refusing public use.
Not been out and about since 13th March so how do motorway service stations etc operate and do you feel safe using them.
I know Fish highlighted this problem for delivery drivers.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, now you really are just taking the piss


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Would you like to clearly nail your colours to the mast and tell us which strategy you want to see.
The lockdown to continue as it is.  Or,
An easing of the lockdown, which you are inferring is a gamble, I.e. Recklessness by the government.
It is something of a gamble, but that is because of the nature of the virus and not knowing exactly how the populace will behave.

We have only heard speculation as to the form of easing. Whenever it comes it will come with caveats. I  suspect there won't be a burning of bridges,
And most importantly, there will be a plea for the behaviour of people to stick within the easement guidelines.
When the last thing doesn't happen, I will blame the selfish idiots who refuse to think of others.
Who will you blame , I wonder?
		
Click to expand...

I think the lockdown should continue as is for the next 3 weeks. If hospital deaths and new cases continue to fall at the current rate, then in 3 weeks time, I'd look at relaxing things a bit.

I recognise that comes at a financial cost, but for me, public health and avoiding a 2nd wave are more important.

I agree there will be a minority of people who will ignore the guidelines/rules, putting other people's health at risk. I will condemn them, but I'd also say that we have been far too soft in our implementation of the lockdown, and no doubt will continue to be with the new rules, so these idiots know they can get away with it. Just asking nicely doesn't work with a minority of idiots. We should be hammering them with fines or jail.

In Greece, the rules are you need to send a text to a central agency and get permission when you want to go out. If you ignore that, you get a hefty fine. The result of that is that, despite a health service which is financially crippled, they have had a grand total of 147 deaths, with none reported yesterday, and are now easing their lockdown.

There you go - colours nailed to the mast.


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## Slab (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I think the lockdown should continue as is for the next 3 weeks. If hospital deaths and new cases continue to fall at the current rate, then in 3 weeks time, I'd look at relaxing things a bit.

I recognise that comes at a financial cost, but for me, public health and avoiding a 2nd wave are more important.

I agree there will be a minority of people who will ignore the guidelines/rules, putting other people's health at risk. I will condemn them, but I'd also say that we have been far too soft in our implementation of the lockdown, and no doubt will continue to be with the new rules, so these idiots know they can get away with it. Just asking nicely doesn't work with a minority of idiots. We should be hammering them with fines or jail.

In Greece, the rules are you need to send a text to a central agency and get permission when you want to go out. If you ignore that, you get a hefty fine. The result of that is that, despite a health service which is financially crippled, they have had a grand total of 147 deaths, with none reported yesterday, and are now easing their lockdown.

There you go - colours nailed to the mast.
		
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I agree. I think the UK have chosen a fairly lite version of a lock-down (as lock-downs go) but many seem want it to end after the same duration as the more stringent lock-downs round the world
My logic (maybe flawed) says if you use a 'lock-down lite' it will need to go on for longer than a 'proper' lock-down in order to have the same effect & achieve the same goals


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

Yet again people display their ignorance by reading a BBC report and suggesting that the conclusion is something that is not actually contained in that report. 

Yes the majority of deaths have been amongst those over 65, but even in more normal times the majority are in that age group .

The report from the University of Edinburgh referred to the "most vulnerable " and, to me at least, seemed pretty clear in meaning those in care and the 1.5 million (of all ages) on the Govt's "at risk " list due to underlying health conditions. 

Not a blanket recommendation for all over 65


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			I agree. I think the UK have chosen a fairly lite version of a lock-down (as lock-downs go) but many seem want it to end after the same duration as the more stringent lock-downs round the world
My logic (maybe flawed) says if you use a 'lock-down lite' it will need to go on for longer than a 'proper' lock-down in order to have the same effect & achieve the same goals
		
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Agreed. It reminds me of numerous episodes of the Walking Dead where everyone is safe until some idiot decides to take an unnecessary risk, he gets bitten, and before you know it, the zombies have overrun the compound!


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## Hacker Khan (May 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			I agree. I* think the UK have chosen a fairly lite version of a lock-down (as lock-downs go)* but many seem want it to end after the same duration as the more stringent lock-downs round the world
My logic (maybe flawed) says if you use a 'lock-down lite' it will need to go on for longer than a 'proper' lock-down in order to have the same effect & achieve the same goals
		
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One could argue we have got stuck in the middle a bit. We have a lockdown lite which has resulted in the 2nd worst death rate in the world* but our economy is also screwed. And one could argue that if we are going to screw the economy at least try and ensure the deaths are not as bad as they seem * 


* feel free to ignore this fact/opinion/left wing propaganda if you want to.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I think the lockdown should continue as is for the next 3 weeks. If hospital deaths and new cases continue to fall at the current rate, then in 3 weeks time, I'd look at relaxing things a bit.

I recognise that comes at a financial cost, but for me, public health and avoiding a 2nd wave are more important.

I agree there will be a minority of people who will ignore the guidelines/rules, putting other people's health at risk. I will condemn them, but I'd also say that we have been far too soft in our implementation of the lockdown, and no doubt will continue to be with the new rules, so these idiots know they can get away with it. Just asking nicely doesn't work with a minority of idiots. We should be hammering them with fines or jail.

In Greece, the rules are you need to send a text to a central agency and get permission when you want to go out. If you ignore that, you get a hefty fine. The result of that is that, despite a health service which is financially crippled, they have had a grand total of 147 deaths, with none reported yesterday, and are now easing their lockdown.

There you go - colours nailed to the mast.
		
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Yes, seen clearly😀

But I wouldn't put all the good results of Greece down to their lockdown measures.
Compare.

Greece population 11 million,        Per sq. mile=81

London population 10 million.         Per sq mile in 2008 =12,877

U.K. Population.  60 million.           Per sq kilo 274


There's the reason for their success as much as anything, and New Zealand and Sweden etc.

Our population, now less disciplined than it was, is what is hampering our efforts, not government chicanery.

BTW, I agree entirely with your views re dealing with the idiots who are selfish.


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## Slab (May 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			One could argue we have got stuck in the middle a bit. We have a lockdown lite which has resulted in the 2nd worst death rate in the world* but our economy is also screwed. And one could argue that if we are going to screw the economy at least try and ensure the deaths are not as bad as they seem *


* feel free to ignore this fact/opinion/left wing propaganda if you want to.
		
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Yeah I think there was a period of a few days where the UK seemed to prefer the 'herd' option and was heading that way... and then swung into lock-down instead. After the herd was touted out loud & in the public domain it would have been very difficult for the public to accept a serious lock-down as an alternative and they've kind of ended up with the lite instead 

It'll likely still work I hope, but I don't see how it can work in as short a time frame as 6-7 weeks


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## AmandaJR (May 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just going by the official figures from each country that is telling me we have the 2nd worst death toll now after the US and we have missed the testing target for the 4th day now.  And whilst I know that the numbers are not all calculated the same, I can't help thinking up to yet the government are not covering themselves in glory.

I'm sure Boris will have some excuses ready as he seems that type of person, and I am sure some will lap those up as a get out of jail free for him and the government. But in a global pandemic where results are measured quite harshly in deaths, if it was a league table we currently seem to be staring relegation in the face.
		
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We probably have opposing political views but this post sums up how I'm feeling at the moment. I'm worried where we're at and where we're going and my faith is fading fast. Still 600+ deaths yesterday and it just seems too many 6 weeks into lockdown. How are those numbers still up there? 

The testing issue bothers me too. 120,000 on Hancock's version of D Day and way below that every day since. That smacks of fudging the numbers to meet a promise and I don't like it.

Having said that the thought of Corbyn being at the helm would make me feel even more uneasy.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Yet again people display their ignorance by reading a BBC report and suggesting that the conclusion is something that is not actually contained in that report.

Yes the majority of deaths have been amongst those over 65, but even in more normal times the majority are in that age group .

The report from the University of Edinburgh referred to the "most vulnerable " and, to me at least, seemed pretty clear in meaning those in care and the 1.5 million (of all ages) on the Govt's "at risk " list due to underlying health conditions.

Not a blanket recommendation for all over 65
		
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It is open to interpretation but what I took it to mean is that the majority of hospitalisations have been over 65's and those with underlying health conditions. If they were to create a policy around that they couldn't cherry pick some over 65's and not others because the evidence so far doesn't seem to indicate that. It's a fact that the immune system is reduced in older people generally making them more susceptible healthy or not.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 7, 2020)

How much better is the House of Commons without the childish Yaaa Boohoo oiks in the stands.
It really highlights the true quality of the politicians delivering their uninterrupted speeches.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Exceed expectations, and everyone is happy. Fail to meet them and its a busted flush.
		
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And see this morning the PPE from Turkey.  Expectations were built up around it (even though it was only three days - but whatever) - then it was delayed - then only some came - now according to the Daily Telegraph all of it has been deemed to be unfit for purpose.  The expectations around this consignment were set by the government - and it filled the headlines for days...and we ended up with nothing of it.  

Come on Johnson's guys and gals - just stop doing this.  This is not normal times - political soundbites playing to your support have absolutely no place in the present circumstances -  because when a soundbite is shown to be of little substance it just undermines you. Pleeeze...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			We probably have opposing political views but this post sums up how I'm feeling at the moment. I'm worried where we're at and where we're going and my faith is fading fast. Still 600+ deaths yesterday and it just seems too many 6 weeks into lockdown. How are those numbers still up there?

The testing issue bothers me too. 120,000 on Hancock's version of D Day and way below that every day since. That smacks of fudging the numbers to meet a promise and I don't like it.

Having said that the thought of Corbyn being at the helm would make me feel even more uneasy.
		
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I likewise would be somewhat uneasy - but though it's not possible I think I'd rather have Starmer at the helm today...(is that a political soundbite?  )


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## Wolf (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And see this morning the PPE from Turkey.  Expectations were built up around it (even though it was only three days - but whatever) - then it was delayed - then only some came - now according to the Daily Telegraph all of it has been deemed to be unfit for purpose.  The expectations around this consignment were set by the government - and it filled the headlines for days...and we ended up with nothing of it. 

Come on Johnson's guys and gals - just stop doing this.  This is not normal times - political soundbites playing to your support have absolutely no place in the present circumstances -  because when a soundbite is shown to be of little substance it just undermines you. Pleeeze...
		
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I don't disagree with you on this at all, but its a difficult one to stop because if they don't say anything people will ask what are they actually doing about it, so they do say something and people are saying they shouldn't have said anything.  Very much a no win situation for any government whether that be Tory, Labour or anyone. They have to be seen to say and do things but then complained about when they do just that. 

All we can hope is they get more right than they do wrong and find a way to help the nation.


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## Ethan (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			how?)

What I am missing is where the 18,000 'contact-tracers' fit into the solution.  What I'm hearing this morning is all about the app?  Or is this just about whether the app works and if proven the full solution will involve contact-tracers doing follow-up (how will they do that?) to check that all who will have been pinged by the app _got _the ping, and have acted accordingly - self-isolate then get tested?
		
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As I understand it, the process is that close contacts of test-positive cases are identified and told to self-isolate. Then if the contacts develop symptoms, they can come forward for testing, I suppose, but they are not tested as a matter of routine. To me, this misses a hugely important aspect of contact tracing. Aggressive contact tracing would test those close contacts of the test-positive case, and if any of them tested positive, their close contacts and so on until the cycle stops. It is the only way to break the spread of infection. It also provides good epidemiological data dn avoids unnecessary self-isolation which could happen more than once.


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## Hobbit (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And see this morning the PPE from Turkey.  Expectations were built up around it (even though it was only three days - but whatever) - then it was delayed - then only some came - now according to the Daily Telegraph all of it has been deemed to be unfit for purpose.  The expectations around this consignment were set by the government - and it filled the headlines for days...and we ended up with nothing of it. 

Come on Johnson's guys and gals - just stop doing this.  This is not normal times - political soundbites playing to your support have absolutely no place in the present circumstances -  because when a soundbite is shown to be of little substance it just undermines you. Pleeeze...
		
Click to expand...

I put the promise made at that daily brief about the PPE order on a par with the 100,000 tests promise. It was a “throwaway” in the brief that the Minister giving it didn’t even know it was achievable.

However, can you really blame the govt for the quality of the product?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			As I understand it, the process is that close contacts of test-positive cases are identified and told to self-isolate. Then if the contacts develop symptoms, they can come forward for testing, I suppose, but they are not tested as a matter of routine. To me, this misses a hugely important aspect of contact tracing. Aggressive contact tracing would test those close contacts of the test-positive case, and if any of them tested positive, their close contacts and so on until the cycle stops. It is the only way to break the spread of infection. It also provides good epidemiological data dn avoids unnecessary self-isolation which could happen more than once.
		
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Is there any evidence from countries that have had aggressive contact tracing policies how many tests per day we'd require for that?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It is open to interpretation but what I took it to mean is that the majority of hospitalisations have been over 65's and those with underlying health conditions. If they were to create a policy around that they couldn't cherry pick some over 65's and not others because the evidence so far doesn't seem to indicate that. It's a fact that the immune system is reduced in older people generally making them more susceptible healthy or not.
		
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I would be interested if you could show me the part of the report from which you draw your conclusion as I cannot see any reference to hospitalisations.

And further within the report is a summary of a further piece of research that suggests that the risk of death is only very marginally greater than normal  for all ages. 

To repeat: more people over 65 die from this disease just as more of their age group die from any condition.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I likewise would be somewhat uneasy - but though it's not possible I think I'd rather have Starmer at the helm today...(is that a political soundbite?  )
		
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Well Starmer does have the advantage of not having to do anything. 

I imagine we could all look good on that basis.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I would be interested if you could show me the part of the report from which you draw your conclusion as I cannot see any reference to hospitalisations.

And further within the report is a summary of a further piece of research that suggests that the risk of death is only very marginally greater than normal  for all ages.

To repeat: more people over 65 die from this disease just as more of their age group die from any condition.
		
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It's the cumulative effect of this that the NHS can't cope with I would have thought.
This is the part of the report I drew my conclusion from. It all depends on your definition of what the vulnerable group is. 
"If it wasn't for the fact that it presents such a high risk of severe disease in vulnerable groups, we would never have taken the steps we have and closed down the country.
"If we can shield the vulnerable really well, there is no reason why we cannot lift many of the restrictions in place for others.
"The lockdown has come at a huge economic, social and health cost."


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It's the cumulative effect of this that the NHS can't cope with I would have thought.
This is the part of the report I drew my conclusion from. It all depends on your definition of what the vulnerable group is.
"If it wasn't for the fact that it presents such a high risk of severe disease in vulnerable groups, we would never have taken the steps we have and closed down the country.
"If we can shield the vulnerable really well, there is no reason why we cannot lift many of the restrictions in place for others.
"The lockdown has come at a huge economic, social and health cost."
		
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But none of that states that the over 65's are any more likely to contract the disease than any other age group. 

Yes more of them die from it but more of them die from all illnesses.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But none of that states that the over 65's are any more likely to contract the disease than any other age group.

Yes more of them die from it but more of them die from all illnesses.
		
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If the data shows that 80%+ of people admitted to hospital were over 65 or in a vulnerable category would it make sense to produce different rules for them over other categories of the population?


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## pendodave (May 7, 2020)

Maybe it's time to lay out the cold hard facts of who gets it and what happens to them and then let people decide how they want to live their lives for the rest of the year?
We do it for all sorts of other lethal threats, and no-one  seems to have an issue with it. 
Noting of course that the state should ensure that those who have no choice in the matter are protected much more effectively than they seem to be at present. 
Just a thought. Don't hate me for it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			If the data shows that 80%+ of people admitted to hospital were over 65 or in a vulnerable category would it make sense to produce different rules for them over other categories of the population?
		
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Well the data shows the vast majority of cases occur in the large urban areas so perhaps we should maintain lockdown for those and 10 miles around.


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## pendodave (May 7, 2020)

I might be wrong, but I get the feeling that metalmickey was 65 last week...


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## funkycoldmedina (May 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well the data shows the vast majority of cases occur in the large urban areas so perhaps we should maintain lockdown for those and 10 miles around.
		
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If it's a certain category whatever it may be then why not?


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## Swinglowandslow (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And see this morning the PPE from Turkey.  Expectations were built up around it (even though it was only three days - but whatever) - then it was delayed - then only some came - now according to the Daily Telegraph all of it has been deemed to be unfit for purpose.  The expectations around this consignment were set by the government - and it filled the headlines for days...and we ended up with nothing of it.  

Come on Johnson's guys and gals - just stop doing this.  This is not normal times - political soundbites playing to your support have absolutely no place in the present circumstances -  because when a soundbite is shown to be of little substance it just undermines you. Pleeeze...
		
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At times your sense of fair play and logic really defies explanation!

Whose fault is it when you buy a product and the product is faulty?
If you ordered a set of clubs from an online retailer and then you wrote on here that things are looking up because you've got this lovely  set of clubs coming etc etc( especially if some of your fellow members keep asking you when you are going to get these new clubs you've been on about), would you consider it right for us to call you out when you get your clubs and find they are no good? They look good and they should be good, but when you get them they don't do what you want to the extent that you can't use them.

Do you think it right to imply that you were careless in the purchase or you didn't really care whether they were any good or not.?

So here you go again, like Wolf said, turn it into a dig at B J and the Government.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I might be wrong, but I get the feeling that metalmickey was 65 last week...
		
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I passed 65 a few years ago.

Just don't care for lazy generalisation.


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			At times your sense of fair play and logic really defies explanation!

Whose fault is it when you buy a product and the product is faulty?
If you ordered a set of clubs from an online retailer and then you wrote on here that things are looking up because you've got this lovely  set of clubs coming etc etc( especially if some of your fellow members keep asking you when you are going to get these new clubs you've been on about), would you consider it right for us to call you out when you get your clubs and find they are no good? They look good and they should be good, but when you get them they don't do what you want to the extent that you can't use them.

Do you think it right to imply that you were careless in the purchase or you didn't really care whether they were any good or not.?

So here you go again, like Wolf said, turn it into a dig at B J and the Government.
		
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Swinglowandslow said:



			At times your sense of fair play and logic really defies explanation!

Whose fault is it when you buy a product and the product is faulty?
If you ordered a set of clubs from an online retailer and then you wrote on here that things are looking up because you've got this lovely  set of clubs coming etc etc( especially if some of your fellow members keep asking you when you are going to get these new clubs you've been on about), would you consider it right for us to call you out when you get your clubs and find they are no good? They look good and they should be good, but when you get them they don't do what you want to the extent that you can't use them.

Do you think it right to imply that you were careless in the purchase or you didn't really care whether they were any good or not.?

So here you go again, like Wolf said, turn it into a dig at B J and the Government.
		
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Would you buy a set of golf clubs from a Turkish website?

As a country, Turkey is well known for fake substandard goods.

It is all rather unfortunate, but you would think the buyer would have done some due diligence on the supplier and their standards.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I passed 65 a few years ago.

Just don't care for lazy generalisation.
		
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Where's the lazy generalisation? This will be driven by the numbers


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

And today the ONS have stated that those from BAME groups have a much increased mortality rate from this disease. 

Are they to be excluded from any easing of lockdown on the grounds of ethnicity?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Where's the lazy generalisation? This will be driven by the numbers
		
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Maybe because you quoted an article as support of your claim yet the contents of said article did not provide that.


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## IanM (May 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And today the ONS have stated that those from BAME groups have a much increased mortality rate from this disease.

Are they to be excluded from any easing of lockdown on the grounds of ethnicity?
		
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I'd suggest that this would also mirror the urban/rural breakdown.... and the ethnicity split is just a bit of failed politicking!   (for whatever purpose) 

Keep the Townies locked up!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 7, 2020)

IanM said:



			I'd suggest that this would also mirror the urban/rural breakdown.... and the ethnicity split is just a bit of failed politicking!   (for whatever purpose)

Keep the Townies locked up!  

Click to expand...

I don't think the ONS are in the habit of politicking. 

My point is that, as in so many instances,  statistics can be used or distorted to support any number of arguments. 

However,  some forms of discrimination, such as ageism, are accepted by many who, quite rightly, would be outraged by others such as racism or sexism.


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## ColchesterFC (May 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The thing is, there's more than one way of looking at the science. This article on the BBC makes a perfectly legitimate case for changing our current strategy. Apologies that there's not enough political content, but by the time I look again there probably will be...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692

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Isn't that article promoting herd immunity? The government got slaughtered (rightly IMO) for suggesting that early in the epidemic.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 7, 2020)

OOps bound to happen Thar she blows....….Sun reporter getting handed his bottom on a plate by Nicola this afternoon.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Would you buy a set of golf clubs from a Turkish website?

As a country, Turkey is well known for fake substandard goods.

It is all rather unfortunate, but you would think the buyer would have done some due diligence on the supplier and their standards.
		
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To be fair, the alternative is largely China. A country well known for ...........................

Due to the desire for lower costs, cheap everything, the main sources for these items are low cost, low everything countries. The payback for that is every so often you get bitten. If you want products that are well manufactured, reliable, quality checked effectively etc then you need to accept a higher price needs to be paid. That has not been the case for many items for an awful lot of years.

In terms of due diligence the govt didn't really have time, they were under huge pressure. The govt did not have time to arrange samples. Even if they did the product supplied does not always match the same standards as that provided in the sample. This is the problem with low quality, low price, high volume manufacturers from certain countries.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I likewise would be somewhat uneasy - but though it's not possible I think I'd rather have Starmer at the helm today...(is that a political soundbite?  )
		
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No.....course not😀


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## AmandaJR (May 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOps bound to happen Thar she blows....….Sun reporter getting handed his bottom on a plate by Nicola this afternoon.
		
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She did really well. Usually no time for the woman and her views but she politley told them to listen to what she was saying. The first question from the BBC was laughable as he literally asked a question that had been clearly stated and, therefore, answered, in her briefing.


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## Ethan (May 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Is there any evidence from countries that have had aggressive contact tracing policies how many tests per day we'd require for that?
		
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I am sure there is, but it also depends how you define close contact. The more rigorous the definition, the fewer the contacts. I suspect that for most people it is not more than a handful. Healthcare staff and their work contacts would be dealt with separately. It should be possible to come up with a definition which was operable.


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## BrianM (May 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am sure there is, but it also depends how you define close contact. The more rigorous the definition, the fewer the contacts. I suspect that for most people it is not more than a handful. Healthcare staff and their work contacts would be dealt with separately. It should be possible to come up with a definition which was operable.
		
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Ethan, Have doctors been told that once a person has Covid 19, they are pretty much immune?
Sorry for going off track, I just know your a doctor and in the know..
It might help as I’m looking to get a new job, Thanks.


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## rudebhoy (May 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair, the alternative is largely China. A country well known for ...........................

Due to the desire for lower costs, cheap everything, the main sources for these items are low cost, low everything countries. The payback for that is every so often you get bitten. If you want products that are well manufactured, reliable, quality checked effectively etc then you need to accept a higher price needs to be paid. That has not been the case for many items for an awful lot of years.

In terms of due diligence the govt didn't really have time, they were under huge pressure. The govt did not have time to arrange samples. Even if they did the product supplied does not always match the same standards as that provided in the sample. This is the problem with low quality, low price, high volume manufacturers from certain countries.
		
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I appreciate the time pressure and agree waiting for samples was not an option, but surely in that case, you ask them who they have supplied previously, and make a few phone calls to check if they are kosher?


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## Old Skier (May 7, 2020)

Fair chance it won't be just the over 65's that could be disappointed on Sunday. Who's for another 3 weeks but with a better shopping experience, if there is such a thing


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## Doon frae Troon (May 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			She did really well. Usually no time for the woman and her views but she politley told them to listen to what she was saying. The first question from the BBC was laughable as he literally asked a question that had been clearly stated and, therefore, answered, in her briefing.
		
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It's been like that every day for the last 3 weeks Amanda.
Apologies for earlier using the word 'reporter' to describe an employee of that newspaper.
I do not think that there are any reporters left in the Scottish paper press nowadays.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 7, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I appreciate the time pressure and agree waiting for samples was not an option, but surely in that case, you ask them who they have supplied previously, and make a few phone calls to check if they are kosher?
		
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They may well be genuine and just erratic, as you mentioned previously Turkey is renowned for something and it isn't quality. I suspect the govt were just racing through the book looking for manufacturers of ppe and went for it. After all, if they can produce 400k pieces in short time then they are not new to the game so they must have supplied some people successfully previously.

Maybe buying ppe at the peak of this was like ordering from a now infamous golf shop. You order in good faith, expect the correct items to arrive and work correctly but sometimes you are let down. ( earlier on in this one delivery marked as gowns on the boxes, as ordered, turned out to be masks. That was from a Chinese supplier)


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## AmandaJR (May 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It's been like that every day for the last 3 weeks Amanda.
Apologies for earlier using the word 'reporter' to describe an employee of that newspaper.
I do not think that there are any reporters left in the Scottish paper press nowadays. 

Click to expand...

I can only assume they have their questions and ask regardless of what's been said in the briefing - journalists my backside!

Did she explain why the R rate is still high in Scotland? I didn't see it all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I put the promise made at that daily brief about the PPE order on a par with the 100,000 tests promise. It was a “throwaway” in the brief that the Minister giving it didn’t even know it was achievable.

However, can you really blame the govt for the quality of the product?
		
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caveat emptor...?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			At times your sense of fair play and logic really defies explanation!

Whose fault is it when you buy a product and the product is faulty?
If you ordered a set of clubs from an online retailer and then you wrote on here that things are looking up because you've got this lovely  set of clubs coming etc etc( especially if some of your fellow members keep asking you when you are going to get these new clubs you've been on about), would you consider it right for us to call you out when you get your clubs and find they are no good? They look good and they should be good, but when you get them they don't do what you want to the extent that you can't use them.

Do you think it right to imply that you were careless in the purchase or you didn't really care whether they were any good or not.?

So here you go again, like Wolf said, turn it into a dig at B J and the Government.
		
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A dig? - no - an exhortation - a plea.  Only those who are looking for folks having a dig at the government can see what I said as such.  But hey.  It seems that for some all Government actions are beyond any critical consideration and when you make a critical comment or observation it's 'a dig'.  Which is just plain daft - it's a question.  

Some folks need to stop trying to defend and excuse the government for everything and at every turn - and need to just accept that some things that have been done or that have been said have been - let's just say - sub-optimal.  And sub-optimal is fine and understandable in the circumstances - just stop trying to tell me nothing was done wrong, and that nothing should be questioned.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A dig? - no - an exhortation - a plea.  Only those who are looking for folks having a dig at the government can see what I said as such.  But hey.  It seems that for some all Government actions are beyond any critical consideration and when you make a critical comment or observation it's 'a dig'.  Which is just plain daft - it's a question.  

Some folks need to stop trying to defend and excuse the government for everything and at every turn - and need to just accept that some things that have been done or that have been said have been - let's just say - sub-optimal.  And sub-optimal is fine and understandable in the circumstances - just stop trying to tell me nothing was done wrong, and that nothing should be questioned.
		
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A "plea" to do things better, which is a direct implication that the government messed up. Whatever semantics you use, it was a dig.
And in this case, it was a silly dig, as I illustrated.
I have not said that nothing was done wrong, see post 689, the tests target was not handled right.
But my examination of the government 's performance is influenced by what a godawful problem this virus has given them ( and the World), and one I wouldn't like to be faced with, and in the belief that they want the best for the Country. Whereas, you appear to see a man you intensely dislike leading a political party you disapprove of, ready to pull the wool over our eyes.

I don't like the politics of SNP, the cheek they had to try to derail the HoC ( a body they wanted to leave and treat as a foreign country at the earliest opportunity ) but I am impressed by Nicola Sturgeon,  and why?
Because she clearly isn't acting as an SNP member, a Party politician. She is impressively behaving as a leader of her "country", to whom it has fallen to get them out of this crisis.


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## Hobbit (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			caveat emptor...? 

Click to expand...

Do you think caveat emptor applies in this instance?

As long ago as 2003 Turkey implemented 70% of the EU's CE standards, including hospital PPE in hospitals. EDIT: April 2004. I don't think buyer beware is very fair.

As for a comment earlier in the thread on equipment coming out of China. The company I used to work for has factories in the UK, Germany, USA, Czech Republic and China. Equipment coming out of China sailed through its quality checks, unlike what was coming out of the USA and the Czech Republic. The anaesthetic machines coming out of the US wasn't just shoddy, they were downright lethal.


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## Foxholer (May 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			At times your sense of fair play and logic really defies explanation!

Whose fault is it when you buy a product and the product is faulty?
If you ordered a set of clubs from an online retailer and then you wrote on here that things are looking up because you've got this lovely  set of clubs coming etc etc( especially if some of your fellow members keep asking you when you are going to get these new clubs you've been on about), would you consider it right for us to call you out when you get your clubs and find they are no good? They look good and they should be good, but when you get them they don't do what you want to the extent that you can't use them.

Do you think it right to imply that you were careless in the purchase or you didn't really care whether they were any good or not.?

So here you go again, like Wolf said, turn it into a dig at B J and the Government.
		
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The product wasn't 'faulty'! It was just not (up) to the UK/NHS standards!

Would you be prepared to put our NHS heroes into battle against this virus with PPE not up to standard?

Mind you, it could all be a(nother) con and UK can produce/source 'proper' PPE in sufficient quantities that it doesn't need this supply!

WRT the golf clubs analogy...If they are not genuine, or genuine, but shoddily made, you have comeback. If they simply don't work (for you) then that's a case of 'caveat emptor'! Quality standards fall into the first category!

And yes, likely careless - or deceitful!


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## Foxholer (May 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			A "plea" to do things better, which is a direct implication that the government messed up. Whatever semantics you use, it was a dig.
And in this case, it was a silly dig, as I illustrated.
...

I don't like the politics of SNP, the cheek they had to try to derail the HoC ( a body they wanted to leave and treat as a foreign country at the earliest opportunity ) but I am impressed by Nicola Sturgeon,  and why?
Because she clearly isn't acting as an SNP member, a Party politician. She is impressively behaving as a leader of her "country", to whom it has fallen to *get them out of this crisis*.
		
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You aeem, to me, to be rather blinded by your own prejudices!
Your illustration was naff!

From what I've seen, Sturgeon is doing a very good job, but doesn't have anywhere near the same responsibilities as the likes of BoJo, so has a considerable advantage in that regard. Also has the benefit of being able to announce initiatives much earlier RofTK for some reason - which also shows her in a better light than she probably deserves.

As for the bold bit....no-one is 'getting out of this crisis' (alive)! Getting through it (alive and healthy) is the goal!


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## Mudball (May 7, 2020)

I know a few forumers were not a fan of Mark Carney at the BoE.  The new gentleman is getting a baptism by fire ..  fairly gloomy/realistic predictions. A 14% shrink in the economy this year. I think he is optimistic to think that the economy will be back by next summer. 

Which also brings the spectre of Brexit and the impact that we will have. Reading the MPC news today, there is a bit of me that thinks that we should get Brexit done this year.. we are up the creek without a paddle - as well rip the plaster in one go. Then we can also write off 2021 rather than live in a false hope. 

If we don’t get Brexit done, then we should delay by a few years rather than a 6 month extension  (which the Tories won’t let happen) 

We might as well make a cocktail of man made and natural causes into one molotov and let it go under the economy. 

(Flame suit on)


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## Swinglowandslow (May 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You aeem, to me, to be rather blinded by your own prejudices!
Your illustration was naff!

From what I've seen, Sturgeon is doing a very good job, but doesn't have anywhere near the same responsibilities as the likes of BoJo, so has a considerable advantage in that regard. Also has the benefit of being able to announce initiatives much earlier RofTK for some reason - which also shows her in a better light than she probably deserves.

As for the bold bit....no-one is 'getting out of this crisis' (alive)! Getting through it (alive and healthy) is the goal!
		
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I'm a bit non plussed by your post. I didn't make any comment about who has the harder job, Bojo or Sturgeon . I was defending B J and government insofar as they have a difficult job with this crisis and it isn't being dealt with on Party lines but in an effort to assist the Country , and as a reinforcement of that, I opined that Sturgeon is similarly dealing with Scotland. I.e   Not in a "Party" way.
Both handling it pretty well. But I read your post as if you think I am praising Sturgeon and comparing BJ unfavourably to her?

And my  illustration?  Do you mean where I am making the point that someone ordering goods in good faith ( alright, I said golf clubs as an example cos this is a golf forum, )but receives duff gear instead ,is the one who is at fault? 
The fault lies with the supplier doesn't it. . ? 

Getting out of the crisis?  I've had to think hard here. I meant getting  out as in "getting out the other side" as in as good a shape as possible. I can only think  you may have thought I meant "getting out of" as meaning "evade"?
Perhaps I should have used your preposition "through" to be more accurate 

As I say, apart from the last para, I don't see what exactly of my post it is that you disagree with?


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## Backache (May 7, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Ethan, Have doctors been told that once a person has Covid 19, they are pretty much immune?
Sorry for going off track, I just know your a doctor and in the know..
It might help as I’m looking to get a new job, Thanks.
		
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My understanding is that there is a presumption that people are immune following infection but no certainty about how long that immunity may last for.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			The product wasn't 'faulty'! It was just not (up) to the UK/NHS standards!

Would you be prepared to put our NHS heroes into battle against this virus with PPE not up to standard?

Mind you, it could all be a(nother) con and UK can produce/source 'proper' PPE in sufficient quantities that it doesn't need this supply!

WRT the golf clubs analogy...If they are not genuine, or genuine, but shoddily made, you have comeback. If they simply don't work (for you) then that's a case of 'caveat emptor'! Quality standards fall into the first category!

And yes, likely careless - or deceitful!
		
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Who has said it was merely not up to our standards? Not faulty, just not up to our standard?  If it was marketed as PPE, and did not protect, then it was faulty🙄.Are you suggesting that it was ordered knowing that it was of a particular standard, not amounting to PPE,  but we ordered it nevertheless? 
Or is it more likely that it was described ( maybe even sampled ) as being of our standard, and ordered as such - but what turned up was not able to protect our personnel as required,? 
If so -that makes  it faulty.

Your second paragraph is frankly a puzzle. Why the need for such a comment? Where have I advocated or suggested or agreed that it would be  ok for NHS staff to be  using any PPE not up to standard.?

Your comment re my golf club analogy suggests that the government buyer of this PPE knew of its ( inadequate) standard when ordered. .? Or, as you put it, "simply don't work for you"
I cannot conceive in this situation that anyone would do that , or do you think otherwise?


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## Kellfire (May 8, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Ethan, Have doctors been told that once a person has Covid 19, they are pretty much immune?
Sorry for going off track, I just know your a doctor and in the know..
It might help as I’m looking to get a new job, Thanks.
		
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No. It’s weird that you think doctors have some kind of insider club but the answer to your question is no.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I can only assume they have their questions and ask regardless of what's been said in the briefing - journalists my backside!

Did she explain why the R rate is still high in Scotland? I didn't see it all.
		
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Basically like the sun, swallows and butterflies CV in North Britain is about two weeks behind what is happening in southern Britain.


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## MegaSteve (May 8, 2020)

I wonder if Boris keeps an eye on what's happening at the hospital that serves his constituency... If he did he'd be aware the covid wards are back to being full after a brief respite last week...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2020)

Eustace on Question Time giving a masterclass of how to say 'I don't know' a dozen times without actually using the words 'I don't know'.


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## rudebhoy (May 8, 2020)

Only 65,000 people tested on Wednesday, has anyone in government given an explanation as to why we are consistently missing the 100k target?


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## patricks148 (May 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Only 65,000 people tested on Wednesday, has anyone in government given an explanation as to why we are consistently missing the 100k target?
		
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at least DR the other day actually said the number rather than where prev they just kept saying they have reached the target again... which they hadn't


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## Foxholer (May 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			...
Both handling it pretty well. But I read your post as if you think I am praising Sturgeon *and comparing BJ unfavourably to her*?
...
		
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Certainly not. Just pointing out his bigger responsibility (and the 'advantage' she has and has used) when announcing results of meetings. I actually trust her more, in general, than I trust BoJo. Though as far as this crisis goes, I trust them equally.



Swinglowandslow said:



			...
And my  illustration?  Do you mean where I am making the point that someone ordering goods in good faith ( alright, I said golf clubs as an example cos this is a golf forum, )but receives duff gear instead ,is the one who is at fault?
The fault lies with the supplier doesn't it. . ?
...
		
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Continuing the 'irons' analogy...It depends! If the clubs are faulty (as in heads or grips come off, or specs aren't what was ordered - e.g. Regular ordered but Stiff supplied or length different to that ordered) then Supplier is at fault - as it is, indeed 'duff gear'. However, if specs ordered were wrong (e.g. Regular ordered and sopplied, but Stiff was what should have been ordered or non-standard length required but not specifid on order) then it's the Customer's fault - as it's the order that's 'duff'! Confirming requirement for/that PPE complies with UK Standard(s) is equivalent to comfirming appropriate flex (or length) of irons!


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## Foxholer (May 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Who has said it was merely not up to our standards?...
		
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I believe my earlier reply post covers everything that is relevant!


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## Old Skier (May 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Only 65,000 people tested on Wednesday, has anyone in government given an explanation as to why we are consistently missing the 100k target?
		
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The one question i would think a decent journalist would be asking during the briefings.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The one question i would think a decent journalist would be asking during the briefings.
		
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...and if someone from the BBC asked it then he/she would get crticised - no?


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## Imurg (May 8, 2020)

It seems the first question asked, as it happens, by the BBC, was....
We don't want to preempt what Boris will say on Sunday but will we be mirroring Wales' decisions released today..?
That just beggars belief..
Did they think they were going to get an answer detailing what Boris is going to say on Sunday?
Really..?
They thought they were going to have everything leaked in front of millions on live TV?
If that's the standard of journalism, in every company because they all seem equally retarded, then I'm surprised anyone bothers to watch, read or listen to a word they say.
Pitiful.


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## Old Skier (May 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if someone from the BBC asked it then he/she would get crticised - no? 

Click to expand...

Why?

 I did ask you for your views but you ignored it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why?

I did ask you for your views but you ignored it.
		
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Yes - the government should be pressed by the media on mixed messaging, PPE, contact tracing and testing ever day and the media should not be criticised for doing so.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It seems the first question asked, as it happens, by the BBC, was....
We don't want to preempt what Boris will say on Sunday but will we be mirroring Wales' decisions released today..?
That just beggars belief..
Did they think they were going to get an answer detailing what Boris is going to say on Sunday?
Really..?
They thought they were going to have everything leaked in front of millions on live TV?
If that's the standard of journalism, in every company because they all seem equally retarded, then I'm surprised anyone bothers to watch, read or listen to a word they say.
Pitiful.
		
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The Cummings inspired private briefing to a selected [Tory] group of jounalists seem to have backfired quite spectacularly.
The newspapers all went with a Brexit/VE/Bank Holiday inspired end of lockdown story, as expected.

Government now furiously backpeddling as the British public [outwith of the Westminster bubble] show a lot more sense than it's government.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

What the heck is this two week quarantine for everyone arriving in the uk by air from the end of this month? Never mind the ‘why now not much sooner - what’s changed?’ or ‘Why end May not now?’ - having information on this sort of clampdown coming through 3rd parties and not from the government directly is nonsense and causing quite a bit of confusion and concern.  So many questions about it that cannot be answered as only a minister can answer them and it’s not come that route to us...

...and also now apparently grant shapps wants us to be walking and cycling to work...well...that’s fine unless many more pedestrians are going onto the road - now busy again with traffic - to safely pass other pedestrians.  We were out midday yesterday - much earlier than usual - and the roads were so much busier and that made walking on the road or crossing it to avoid other pedestrians are lot less straight forward and riskier.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Cummings inspired private briefing to a selected [Tory] group of jounalists seem to have backfired quite spectacularly.
The newspapers all went with a Brexit/VE/Bank Holiday inspired end of lockdown story, as expected.

Government now furiously backpeddling as the British public [outwith of the Westminster bubble] show a lot more sense than it's government.
		
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Would you care to tell  us how you know that this all arose as a result of a "Cummings inspired briefing"?


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Would you care to tell  us how you know that this all arose as a result of a "Cummings inspired briefing"?
		
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You must be pretty naive if you think that papers get these stories by luck or in depth journalism. 

Politicians have leaked to the press for years to test ideas out or for political gain and it still goes on. Whether Cummings is a puppet master orchestrating it all is up for debate. But the government leaks an idea, The Sun prints that beer gardens will be open next week and off we go.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			You must be pretty naive if you think that papers get these stories by luck or in depth journalism.

Politicians have leaked to the press for years to test ideas out or for political gain and it still goes on. Whether Cummings is a puppet master orchestrating it all is up for debate. But the government leaks an idea, The Sun prints that beer gardens will be open next week and off we go.
		
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You might be surprised by how much I know about the  workings of the Press and its relationship with  Governments and others. 

However, the post to which I referred was definitive in its claim so I would imagine that the poster is able to substantiate it.


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## Ethan (May 9, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Ethan, Have doctors been told that once a person has Covid 19, they are pretty much immune?
Sorry for going off track, I just know your a doctor and in the know..
It might help as I’m looking to get a new job, Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Well, there is debate but it seems that opinion is moving towards the view that infection does generate antibodies in almost all the infected, and that those antibodies do provide immunity. The remaining question is how long those antibodies last. Vaccination seeks to do basically the same thing. 

Some of the issues around 'immunity certificates' are political. The Govt is anxious about some people having a special card of invulnerability and that weakening adherence to social distancing for others.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Would you care to tell  us how you know that this all arose as a result of a "Cummings inspired briefing"?
		
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I visited Bleedingly Obvious .com.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You might be surprised by how much I know about the  workings of the Press and its relationship with  Governments and others.

However, the post to which I referred was definitive in its claim so I would imagine that the poster is able to substantiate it.
		
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I think you by-passed the word 'inspired'.
Unless you deny the briefing took place.......seems to be common knowledge from the journalists who were not invited....fancy that.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I visited Bleedingly Obvious .com.

Click to expand...

Is that the same site as prejudiced opinions.com or unsubstantiated assumptions.co.uk?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you by-passed the word 'inspired'.
Unless you deny the briefing took place.......seems to be common knowledge from the journalists who were not invited....fancy that.
		
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What?

Are you telling me that Wings over Scotland wasn't invited?


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## BrianM (May 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, there is debate but it seems that opinion is moving towards the view that infection does generate antibodies in almost all the infected, and that those antibodies do provide immunity. The remaining question is how long those antibodies last. Vaccination seeks to do basically the same thing.

Some of the issues around 'immunity certificates' are political. The Govt is anxious about some people having a special card of invulnerability and that weakening adherence to social distancing for others.
		
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Thanks for that Ethan, much appreciated.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - the government should be pressed by the media on mixed messaging, PPE, contact tracing and testing ever day and the media should not be criticised for doing so.
		
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And still you fail to answer the question.

As to the media pressing the government over PPE, I have no problem with that as there are as many reports of sufficient equipment as there are of not enough.

Mixed messages, not heard any from the daily brief, enough false messages coming out of the media and the last few days have been particularly bad" More a case of mixed interpretation from the public.


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## MegaSteve (May 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And still you fail to answer the question.

As to the media pressing the government over PPE, I have no problem with that as there are as many reports of sufficient equipment as there are of not enough.

Mixed messages, not heard any from the daily brief, enough false messages coming out of the media and the last few days have been particularly bad" More a case of mixed interpretation from the public.
		
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Or, the messages, from government, aren't sufficiently on point allowing for multiple interpretations...


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## pendodave (May 9, 2020)

The biggest messaging problem the government faces is that having convinced 60 million people that they're all gonna die, they're going to have to tell everyone under the age of 70,without something nasty on their cv, that it's all ok actually, you'll be fine, please go back to work except for the millions of you who now have no jobs...


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Before they can do that, they need to actually take the steps to make it "ok". Currently we continue to get several thousand new infections and several hundred deaths every day. Quite surreal, against that background, that we seem to be edging towards relaxing our already lax rules.
		
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I think the strategy now will be to all they can to get the economy moving again and try and relax the restrictions whilst keeping the R rate below 1.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2020)

Good Question from the Co Durham guy on the daily roundup.

'I live 175 miles from Edinburgh and 350 miles from London, which of those should I  take advice from'.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Before they can do that, they need to actually take the steps to make it "ok". Currently we continue to get several thousand new infections and several hundred deaths every day. Quite surreal, against that background, that we seem to be edging towards relaxing our already lax rules.
		
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Bit weird when you look at the numbers. The number of new cases and deaths has pretty much levelled out, could even be dropping a little, but the number of active cases continues to rise. Appreciate that it will rise as more are added to it but why has deaths levelled off/dropped?

Not suggesting the figures are being massaged in any way. The number of deaths will be mitigated as the clinical staff learn about the disease.

Just finding it a little difficult to compute.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Bit weird when you look at the numbers. The number of new cases and deaths has pretty much levelled out, could even be dropping a little, but the number of active cases continues to rise. Appreciate that it will rise as more are added to it but why has deaths levelled off/dropped?

Not suggesting the figures are being massaged in any way. The number of deaths will be mitigated as the clinical staff learn about the disease.

Just finding it a little difficult to compute.
		
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Weekend figures, expect them to get lower tomorrow and Monday with a jump back up on Tuesday. Does every week.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've given up trying to read too much into the stats but it's so frustrating to see things levelling but not significantly dropping while the agenda seemingly shifts to opening up again.
		
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Is it  a media agenda or the real thing. We'll find out tomorrow


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Weekend figures, expect them to get lower tomorrow and Monday with a jump back up on Tuesday. Does every week.
		
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I looked right across the figures from UK lockdown day. It almost looks stage managed when you look at the trends in other countries. How could it level out almost from lockdown onwards? Surely those taking it into lockdown would show up as a continued rise in the first few weeks as they and then their family members got it. 

Just odd??


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## pendodave (May 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've given up trying to read too much into the stats but it's so frustrating to see things levelling but not significantly dropping while the agenda seemingly shifts to opening up again.
		
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I think the only real numbers are deaths, hospitalisations etc.  
Infections are so hard to count - if you test more people, you get more positives. If you only test people who feel ill, you get more than if you test a random sample of the population. Maybe there's more detail somewhere, but frankly, we're just the peanut gallery and they don't seem inclined to share - Viz the redacted scientific advice. Information is power and there's no inclination to give it up at present.


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## BrianM (May 9, 2020)

What can any ‘goverment’ do with the amount of idiots not doing what’s asked off them.
The amount of people flouting the rules is unbelievable.
A family from London travelling to Scotland for a 3 day break, Just one example!!


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## Swinglowandslow (May 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That's going to be a very difficult tightrope to walk. Maybe I'm too risk averse but it just doesn't seem like we're in a position to start that process yet.
		
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Yes I agree. Which is a shame because if people really tried we could get the R rate lower quicker. Seems if you give people an inch they'll take two.
Those of us who are mobile through work are reporting too many seem to be ignoring social distancing, and it is the top story on my regional BBC news


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good Question from the Co Durham guy on the daily roundup.

'I live 175 miles from Edinburgh and 350 miles from London, which of those should I  take advice from'.
		
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Seems a rather petty question - surely it doesn’t matter where “advice” is coming from , you take it all in and then judge for yourself.

But If you are talking guidelines and lockdown rules then you take notice of the government for your area.


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## huds1475 (May 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good Question from the Co Durham guy on the daily roundup.

'I live 175 miles from Edinburgh and 350 miles from London, which of those should I  take advice from'.
		
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Its that stupid I was amazed they let it on.

Perhaps they were trying to make up for the fact Laura Keunssberg wasn't working today?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Bit weird when you look at the numbers. The number of new cases and deaths has pretty much levelled out, could even be dropping a little, but the number of active cases continues to rise. Appreciate that it will rise as more are added to it but why has deaths levelled off/dropped?

Not suggesting the figures are being massaged in any way. The number of deaths will be mitigated as the clinical staff learn about the disease.

Just finding it a little difficult to compute.
		
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Only a theory but could it be that initially we were only shown figures for new cases based upon those tested after admission to hospital.

Presumably they were those who were most severely infected and sadly lead to the deaths figure which subsequently reduced in line with the fall in those (the blue blocking the graph shown each day).

With the expansion of testing are we now seeing  a more accurate reflection of the extent of the disease within the community but also a seemingly disproportionate rise in the number suffering a less serious form of the virus (this increase is shown in the orange block on the graph) with not the same level of deaths.

I am not certain by any means if this is a correct interpretation


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## huds1475 (May 9, 2020)

Pleased to hear Shapps announce the transport initiatives. 

Much needed anyway, might as well get something positive out of all this.

Signs that people are thinking about opportunities as well as threats


----------



## banjofred (May 9, 2020)

BrianM said:



			What can any ‘goverment’ do with the amount of idiots not doing what’s asked off them.
The amount of people flouting the rules is unbelievable.
A family from London travelling to Scotland for a 3 day break, Just one example!!
		
Click to expand...

Yep, totally agree with you. But....there are always idiots. There are "idiots" who are experts and/or in Govt themselves that ignore the rules. It comes down to a few points to me.
1. It looks like things are getting better. But....it isn't going to go away anytime soon.....months and months and months etc etc....
2. You have to open things at some point. You can't just keep paying people to stay home. Govt is bleeding money incredibly fast.....it isn't something that can continue. 
3. At what point do you open? Now? A week from now? Month from now? The virus will still be there.....waiting......No matter when you open, there will be people waiting to state "I knew it was too early..... the govt is stupid". Govt really can't win no matter which way they go. 
4. People have had enough....more and more are going to break the rules. The only way the trickle won't get worse is if you fill the streets with police (or zombies....pretty sure that would work). 
5. Hind-sight is wonderful. There are a lot of experts out there that are saying "I told you so". 
6. More cases...because there is more testing. Deaths levelling off because of somewhat better treatments and likely because there are less infections. Very much my opinion. 
7. Opening back up won't result in the infection rates of a month+ ago.....there are LOTS of people who are going to be more careful and keep the social distancing continuing.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Its that stupid I was amazed they let it on.

Perhaps they were trying to make up for the fact Laura Keunssberg wasn't working today?
		
Click to expand...

Its Doons normal response which is stupid. All 4 countries following pretty similar policies.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2020)

BrianM said:



			What can any ‘goverment’ do with the amount of idiots not doing what’s asked off them.
The amount of people flouting the rules is unbelievable.
A family from London travelling to Scotland for a 3 day break, Just one example!!
		
Click to expand...

If that was not weird enough , they were travelling to Motherwell for a 3 day break.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Its that stupid I was amazed they let it on.

Perhaps they were trying to make up for the fact Laura Keunssberg wasn't working today?
		
Click to expand...

I like Laura, she is a beacon of honesty amidst a smelly midden self serving morons.
She is never afraid to tell it as it is.


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## huds1475 (May 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I like Laura, she is a beacon of honesty amidst a smelly midden self serving morons.
She is never afraid to tell it as it is.
		
Click to expand...

LOL.

She sure is.


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That's going to be a very difficult tightrope to walk. Maybe I'm too risk averse but it just doesn't seem like we're in a position to start that process yet.
		
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Trouble is that many other countries are going down that path and Boris is a popularist leader, so he needs to be popular with the majority of the population who want the restrictions to be loosened a bit.


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is that many other countries are going down that path and Boris is a popularist leader, so he needs to be popular with the majority of the population who want the restrictions to be loosened a bit.
		
Click to expand...

despite having been criticised by all and sundry for a different approach at the start lol, 6 weeks ago he was a maverick idiot, hes now following the crowd to be popular. surely cant be both can it?


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			despite having been criticised by all and sundry for a different approach at the start lol, 6 weeks ago he was a maverick idiot, hes now following the crowd to be popular. surely cant be both can it?
		
Click to expand...

Not agreeing or disagreeing with HK’s post,  but Yes, it’s very possible to be both.

IMO he was too slow to lockdown, and he’s now too quick to lift restrictions (if that’s what he does). It’s almost as though he has another consideration. Not sure what though 😉


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not agreeing or disagreeing with HK’s post,  but Yes, it’s very possible to be both.

IMO he was too slow to lockdown, and he’s now too quick to lift restrictions (if that’s what he does). It’s almost as though he has another consideration. Not sure what though 😉
		
Click to expand...

he hasnt lifted anything yet, everyones already crucifying him based on rumours (whilst moaning that they cant play golf simultaneously)


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			he hasnt lifted anything yet, everyones already crucifying him based on rumours (whilst moaning that they cant play golf simultaneously)
		
Click to expand...

I know, but he’s playing that silly political game where they trail something happening via secret briefings and gauge the reaction. They’re not doing that for no reason. I’m too cynical these days so I’m not going to offer an opinion, but whatever happens, it’s too soon to lift restrictions unless you are protecting something else.


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## huds1475 (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It’s almost as though he has another consideration. Not sure what though 😉
		
Click to expand...

Summer @ Branston's Island in exchange for bailing his planes?


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I know, but he’s playing that silly political game where they trail something happening via secret briefings and gauge the reaction. They’re not doing that for no reason. I’m too cynical these days so I’m not going to offer an opinion, but whatever happens, it’s too soon to lift restrictions unless you are protecting something else.
		
Click to expand...


not going to offer an opinion? you already have (along with everyone else and his dog)


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Summer @ Branston's Island in exchange for bailing his planes?
		
Click to expand...

Oh you leftie, commie, socialist cynic!! How dare you!!! 😂


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			not going to offer an opinion? you already have (along with everyone else and his dog)
		
Click to expand...

Not fully I haven’t. Too chilled here in the garden with the family and the dogs. Life’s too short 😉


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not agreeing or disagreeing with HK’s post,  but Yes, it’s very possible to be both.

IMO he was too slow to lockdown, and he’s now too quick to lift restrictions (if that’s what he does). It’s almost as though he has another consideration. Not sure what though 😉
		
Click to expand...

sorry thought that was an opinion, enjoy the garden


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			sorry thought that was an opinion, enjoy the garden
		
Click to expand...

Ah, ok. Then let me clarify. I’m not going to offer an opinion on why he Might lift restrictions early. I’ll let other, smarter people talk about that if they want to. 
Apologies for the vague post originally.


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ah, ok. Then let me clarify. I’m not going to offer an opinion on why he Might lift restrictions early. I’ll let other, smarter people talk about that if they want to.
Apologies for the vague post originally.
		
Click to expand...

a combination of the science leading it, the economy/jobs, mental health effects and a variety of conspiracy theories I expect  there again i dont think theyll be relaxed much at all


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			he hasnt lifted anything yet, everyones already crucifying him based on rumours (whilst moaning that they cant play golf simultaneously)
		
Click to expand...

It's becoming the british way.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I know, but he’s playing that silly political game where they trail something happening via secret briefings and gauge the reaction. They’re not doing that for no reason. I’m too cynical these days so I’m not going to offer an opinion, but whatever happens, it’s too soon to lift restrictions unless you are protecting something else.
		
Click to expand...

The trouble is, we have all become cynical to the point that we believe the media even though they may have nothing to base their knowledge on. Easiest thing in the world for a report to say, "an official source"  without backing it up with a name.


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			he hasnt lifted anything yet, everyones already crucifying him based on rumours (whilst moaning that they cant play golf simultaneously)
		
Click to expand...

The thing I believe he did wrong is saying in his question time that he was hoping to relax restrictions on Monday - i don’t think he thought that through well at all because the media and public will leap on it. 

Since then they have tried to smother the message every day.


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## drdel (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I looked right across the figures from UK lockdown day. It almost looks stage managed when you look at the trends in other countries. How could it level out almost from lockdown onwards? Surely those taking it into lockdown would show up as a continued rise in the first few weeks as they and then their family members got it.

Just odd??
		
Click to expand...

As I understand the situation there's a suggestion that most new cases are within or connected with the health and care sectors and the 'R' rate in the general community is much lower. Hence the potential to think about gentling changing controls.


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



			The thing I believe he did wrong is saying in his question time that he was hoping to relax restrictions on Monday - i don’t think he thought that through well at all because the media and public will leap on it.

Since then they have tried to smother the message every day.
		
Click to expand...


damned if they do damned if they dont though (and damned full stop to some people)

so what youre saying is he cant be open and try and give some guide to direction as it will be his fault when it is misunderstood by sections of the press and public. at the same time theyre being criticised for giving no guidance on whats coming by other sections of the press and public


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## Imurg (May 9, 2020)

I do wonder what part of " I hope to lift some restrictions next week" translates into "Lockdown's off. Get out there and boogie"......
Are there that many that can't understand basic English..?


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I do wonder what part of " I hope to lift some restrictions next week" translates into "Lockdown's off. Get out there and boogie"......
Are there that many that can't understand basic English..?
		
Click to expand...

because people hear what they want to hear and the media egg them on?


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## drdel (May 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I like Laura, she is a beacon of honesty amidst a smelly midden self serving morons.
She is never afraid to tell it as it is.
		
Click to expand...

I assume you'd also say she does not use a self promotional attitude: and of   course all while being completely free of spin and bias.


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## IanM (May 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			I assume you'd also say she does not use a self promotional attitude: and of   course all while being completely free of spin and bias.
		
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Doon means she shares his views...  

We have a total wazzock running Cardiff Council The Welsh Assembly who thinks buying flower pots in garden centres is safer than playing golf or sitting on a river bank (not fishing obviously!)   We have a campaign on on a FB Group here emailing him to ask that is.

Roll on the election, the guy cant even buy a suit that fits


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



			The thing I believe he did wrong is saying in his question time that he was hoping to relax restrictions on Monday - i don’t think he thought that through well at all because the media and public will leap on it.

Since then they have tried to smother the message every day.
		
Click to expand...

Down to interpretation, is opening a few shops including garden centers is not what I would call relaxing restrictions to any great shakes.


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## AmandaJR (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			damned if they do damned if they dont though (and damned full stop to some people)

so what youre saying is he cant be open and try and give some guide to direction as it will be his fault when it is misunderstood by sections of the press and public. at the same time theyre being criticised for giving no guidance on whats coming by other sections of the press and public
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure we were all told that Sturgeon was having an adult conversation when talking about a 30 page document to stage getting out of lockdown...


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## huds1475 (May 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			I assume you'd also say she does not use a self promotional attitude: and of   course all while being completely free of spin and bias.
		
Click to expand...

You missed smug and condescending off the list too


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			despite having been criticised by all and sundry for a different approach at the start lol, 6 weeks ago* he was a maverick idiot*, hes now following the crowd to be popular. surely cant be both can it?
		
Click to expand...

Don't think anyone called him a maverick.


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't think anyone called him a maverick.
		
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https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-12...boris-johnsons-maverick-coronavirus-strategy/


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			I assume you'd also say she does not use a self promotional attitude: and of   course all while being completely free of spin and bias.
		
Click to expand...

Believe me we are well used to BBC spin and bias in Scotland, 8 years and counting..……….on that scale Laura has not even got a foot on the first rung on the BBC bias ladder in rUK,


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## huds1475 (May 10, 2020)

Went to a test site yesterday, good size drive-througb facility on a car park at Mcr Airport.

Three things struck me;

1. Capacity must be near 100 per hour, but only a handful of cars there. When booking it was free most of the week.

Appreciate an isolated incident, but even if repeated at a couple.of centers then get might have been wise to publish testing capacity figures as well as as actual tests, similar to bed capacity, to ward off the snipers.

2. It felt like driving into a disaster movie. Don't open your window, phone numbers held up to communicate with the staff via phone and so on. Really enforced, after being cocooned away from it for 7 weeks, that this is real.

3. The process, from booking to completion,  as a whole still could do with  little refining. But it works. Whatever minor niggles there are testing is widely available, and accessible, for those who need it most. I could have picked an appt two hours after i initially registered! An impressive effort in such a short time.

So why am I posting this?

I'm not really politically affiliated but what I've seen, in the testing and nightingale hospital spaces, is some impressive disaster management from a government machine that isn't designed to move quickly.

Its easy to snipe, but you have to play the  cards you have, not the ones you might of had. Whatever mistakes were made early days of this disaster the response has been impressive. More people need to take stock of that.

Sorry for the long rambling post!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

IanM said:



			Doon means she shares his views...  

We have a total wazzock running Cardiff Council The Welsh Assembly who thinks buying flower pots in garden centres is safer than playing golf or sitting on a river bank (not fishing obviously!)   We have a campaign on on a FB Group here emailing him to ask that is.

Roll on the election, the guy cant even buy a suit that fits
		
Click to expand...

Fairly sure that Laura is not even aware of what my views are. I am really pretty insignificant in the UK politics scene.
I do like honesty and fair reporting in the British press though, sadly that is also pretty insignificant.


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## harpo_72 (May 10, 2020)

Not everyone is going to be pleased all of the time, and not all stuff is going to be done perfectly. There really isn’t any thing wrong with criticism either, it makes sure that stuff doesn’t slide off the table. 
For sure we could have done stuff better and there is stuff they have done well. However the public has not made this straightforward with their inability to actually lockdown. We were always at risk in our big cities, look around the world and see those cities that have close engagement are all suffering.
Did they throw the care homes under the bus ? That’s something that will require investigation post event. What is required now is a response to prevent those numbers climbing and the suffering minimised. 
The testing is all very well but we need to find out who has had it and if they are immune or not.. do that and the restriction reduction could well be planned better. I am sure these questions are being asked .. irrespective of the news agency. 
The news agencies will all ways have their followers but remember the newspapers want to sell a story.. if they can keep a weak story alive by spinning it another way they will .. it’s all about money, always has and always will be.


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## spongebob59 (May 10, 2020)

Stay alert is the new mantra, so if you see someone getting too close tell.Them to f off.


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## rudebhoy (May 10, 2020)

Very good interview with David Spiegelhalter on Marr this morning. He is the statistician who was misquoted by BJ the other day.

Couple of points he made - everyone is worried about protecting their kids, yet out of 10 million under 15s, only 2 have died of the virus, and for under 25 year olds, the figure is 26 out of 15 million. Statistically irrelevant. By contrast, 1% of over 90s have died of the virus in the last 4 weeks alone. The risk to that age group is 10,000 times greater than to youngster. Obvious stuff, but well explained.

He expressed his frustration at the daily briefings, calling them number theatre. He made the point that the number of deaths is far higher than what is being quoted, and the number of people tested is well below what is being quoted. He made the point that it would be far better if the figures were properly explained by someone who understood them as opposed to politicians putting their spin on them.

if you want to watch it on catch-up, it was around 9.50am.


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Went to a test site yesterday, good size drive-througb facility on a car park at Mcr Airport.

Three things struck me;

1. Capacity must be near 100 per hour, but only a handful of cars there. When booking it was free most of the week.

Appreciate an isolated incident, but even if repeated at a couple.of centers then get might have been wise to publish testing capacity figures as well as as actual tests, similar to bed capacity, to ward off the snipers.

2. It felt like driving into a disaster movie. Don't open your window, phone numbers held up to communicate with the staff via phone and so on. Really enforced, after being cocooned away from it for 7 weeks, that this is real.

3. The process, from booking to completion,  as a whole still could do with  little refining. But it works. Whatever minor niggles there are testing is widely available, and accessible, for those who need it most. I could have picked an appt two hours after i initially registered! An impressive effort in such a short time.

So why am I posting this?

I'm not really politically affiliated but what I've seen, in the testing and nightingale hospital spaces, is some impressive disaster management from a government machine that isn't designed to move quickly.

Its easy to snipe, but you have to play the  cards you have, not the ones you might of had. Whatever mistakes were made early days of this disaster the response has been impressive. More people need to take stock of that.

Sorry for the long rambling post!
		
Click to expand...

So you admit it took them too long, mistakes were made and that they’re clearly allocating testing resources where they aren’t being properly utilised and you think it’s impressive? Erm.


----------



## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

December 31st China alerts WHO to new virus.

January 23rd Study reveals a third of China’s patients require intensive care. 

January 24th Boris Johnson misses first Cobra meeting.

January 29th Boris Johnson misses second Cobra meeting.

January 31st The NHS declares first ever ‘Level 4 critical incident’ Meanwhile, the government declines to join European scheme to source PPE.

February 5th Boris Johnson misses third Cobra meeting.

February 12th Boris Johnson misses fourth Cobra meeting. Exeter University published study warning Coronavirus could infect 45 million people in the UK if left unchallenged.

February 13th Boris Johnson misses conference call with European leaders.

February 14th Boris Johnson goes away on holiday. Aides are told keeps Johnson’s briefing notes short or he will not read them.

February 18th Johnson misses fifth cobra meeting.

February 26th Boris Johnson announces ‘Herd Immunity’ strategy, announcing some people will lose loved ones. Government document is leaked, predicting half a million Brits could die in ‘worse case scenario’ 

February 29th Boris Johnson retreats to his country manor. NHS warns of ‘PPE shortage nightmare’ Stockpiles have dwindled or expired after years of austerity cuts. 

March 2nd Boris Johnson attends his first Cobra meeting, declining another opportunity to join European PPE scheme. Government’s own scientists say over half a million Brit’s could die if virus left unrestrained. Johnson tells country “We are very, very well prepared.”

March 3rd Scientists urge Government to advise public not to shake hands. Boris Johnson brags about shaking hands of Coronavirus patients. 

March 4th Government stops providing daily updates on virus following a 70% spike in UK cases. They will later U-turn on this amid accusations they are withholding vital information. 

March 5th Boris Johnson tells public to ‘wash their hands and business as usual’ 

March 7th Boris Johnson joins 82,000 people at Six Nations match. 

March 9th After Ireland cancels St Patrick’s day parades, the government says there’s “No Rationale” for cancelling sporting events.

March 10th - 13th Cheltenham takes place, more than a quarter of a million people attend.

March 11th 3,000 Atletico Madrid fans fly to Liverpool.

March 12th Boris Johnson states banning events such as Cheltenham will have little effect. The Imperial College study finds the government’s plan is projected to kill half a million people.

March 13th The FA suspends the Premier League, citing an absence of Government guidance. Britain is invited to join European scheme for joint purchase of ventilators, and refuses. Boris Johnson lifts restrictions of those arriving from Coronavirus hot spots. 

March 14th Government is still allowing mass gatherings, as Stereophonics play to 5,000 people in Cardiff. 

March 16th Boris Johnson asks Britons not to go to pubs, but allows them to stay open. During a conference call, Johnson jokes that push to build new ventilators should be called ‘Operation Last Gasp’ 

March 19th Hospital patients with Coronavirus are returned to care homes in a bid to free up hospital space. What follows is a boom of virus cases in care homes.

March 20th The Government states that PPE shortage crisis is “Completely resolved” Less than two weeks later, the British Medical Association reports an acute shortage in PPE.

March 23rd UK goes into lockdown.

March 26th Boris Johnson is accused of putting ‘Brexit over Breathing’ by not joining EU ventilator scheme. The government then state they had not joined the scheme because they had ‘missed the email’ 

April 1st The Evening Standard publishes that just 0.17% of NHS staff have been tested for the virus.

April 3rd The UK death toll overtakes China.

April 5th 17.5 million Antibody tests, ordered by the government and described by Boris Johnson as a ‘game changer’ are found to be a failure.

April 7th Boris Johnson is moved to intensive care with Coronavirus.

April 16th Flights bring 15,000 people a day into the UK - without virus testing. 

April 17th Health Secretary Matt Hancock says “I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and have PPE fall from the sky.” The UK has now missed four opportunities to join the EU’s PPE scheme.

April 21st The Government fails to reach its target of face masks for the NHS, as it is revealed manufactures offers of help were met with silence. Instead millions of pieces of PPE are being shipped from the UK to Europe.

April 23rd - 24th Government announces testing kits for 10 million key workers. Orders run out within minutes as only 5,000 are made available.

April 25th UK death toll from Coronavirus overtakes that of The Blitz.

April 30th Boris Johnson announces the UK has succeeded in avoiding a tragedy that had engulfed other parts of the world - At this point, The UK has the 3rd highest death toll in the world.

May 1st The Government announces it has reached its target of 100,000 tests - They haven’t conducted the tests, but posted the testing kits.

May 4th The number of NHS staff that have died from Coronavirus overtakes the number of British Military personnel that died during the Iraq War. 

May 5th The UK death toll becomes the highest in Europe.

May 6th Boris Johnson announces the UK could start to lift lockdown restrictions by next week.


----------



## Beezerk (May 10, 2020)

I think all this thread has proved is, you could find a cure for cancer and some people would still try and pick holes in it.


----------



## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I think all this thread has proved is, you could find a cure for cancer and some people would still try and pick holes in it.
		
Click to expand...

It’s crazy that people think we shouldn’t hold out government to account for their actions.


----------



## Beezerk (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s crazy that people think we shouldn’t hold out government to account for their actions.
		
Click to expand...

Is it crazy for people to not really care, or to put it another way, not let it upset them that some clangers may have been dropped along the way?


----------



## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Is it crazy for people to not really care, or to put it another way, not let it upset them that some clangers may have been dropped along the way?
		
Click to expand...

 Yes mistakes get made but they have to learn from them. If we don’t hold them accountable and voice our concerns, then they’ll think we are all happy with their efforts and many of us aren’t. Without analysis and reflection the mistakes continue. Saying “This is unprecedented, good job lads” is a cop out and would delay progress.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			December 31st China alerts WHO to new virus.

January 23rd Study reveals a third of China’s patients require intensive care.

January 24th Boris Johnson misses first Cobra meeting.

January 29th Boris Johnson misses second Cobra meeting.

January 31st The NHS declares first ever ‘Level 4 critical incident’ Meanwhile, the government declines to join European scheme to source PPE.

February 5th Boris Johnson misses third Cobra meeting.

February 12th Boris Johnson misses fourth Cobra meeting. Exeter University published study warning Coronavirus could infect 45 million people in the UK if left unchallenged.

February 13th Boris Johnson misses conference call with European leaders.

February 14th Boris Johnson goes away on holiday. Aides are told keeps Johnson’s briefing notes short or he will not read them.

February 18th Johnson misses fifth cobra meeting.

February 26th Boris Johnson announces ‘Herd Immunity’ strategy, announcing some people will lose loved ones. Government document is leaked, predicting half a million Brits could die in ‘worse case scenario’

February 29th Boris Johnson retreats to his country manor. NHS warns of ‘PPE shortage nightmare’ Stockpiles have dwindled or expired after years of austerity cuts.

March 2nd Boris Johnson attends his first Cobra meeting, declining another opportunity to join European PPE scheme. Government’s own scientists say over half a million Brit’s could die if virus left unrestrained. Johnson tells country “We are very, very well prepared.”

March 3rd Scientists urge Government to advise public not to shake hands. Boris Johnson brags about shaking hands of Coronavirus patients.

March 4th Government stops providing daily updates on virus following a 70% spike in UK cases. They will later U-turn on this amid accusations they are withholding vital information.

March 5th Boris Johnson tells public to ‘wash their hands and business as usual’

March 7th Boris Johnson joins 82,000 people at Six Nations match.

March 9th After Ireland cancels St Patrick’s day parades, the government says there’s “No Rationale” for cancelling sporting events.

March 10th - 13th Cheltenham takes place, more than a quarter of a million people attend.

March 11th 3,000 Atletico Madrid fans fly to Liverpool.

March 12th Boris Johnson states banning events such as Cheltenham will have little effect. The Imperial College study finds the government’s plan is projected to kill half a million people.

March 13th The FA suspends the Premier League, citing an absence of Government guidance. Britain is invited to join European scheme for joint purchase of ventilators, and refuses. Boris Johnson lifts restrictions of those arriving from Coronavirus hot spots.

March 14th Government is still allowing mass gatherings, as Stereophonics play to 5,000 people in Cardiff.

March 16th Boris Johnson asks Britons not to go to pubs, but allows them to stay open. During a conference call, Johnson jokes that push to build new ventilators should be called ‘Operation Last Gasp’

March 19th Hospital patients with Coronavirus are returned to care homes in a bid to free up hospital space. What follows is a boom of virus cases in care homes.

March 20th The Government states that PPE shortage crisis is “Completely resolved” Less than two weeks later, the British Medical Association reports an acute shortage in PPE.

March 23rd UK goes into lockdown.

March 26th Boris Johnson is accused of putting ‘Brexit over Breathing’ by not joining EU ventilator scheme. The government then state they had not joined the scheme because they had ‘missed the email’

April 1st The Evening Standard publishes that just 0.17% of NHS staff have been tested for the virus.

April 3rd The UK death toll overtakes China.

April 5th 17.5 million Antibody tests, ordered by the government and described by Boris Johnson as a ‘game changer’ are found to be a failure.

April 7th Boris Johnson is moved to intensive care with Coronavirus.

April 16th Flights bring 15,000 people a day into the UK - without virus testing.

April 17th Health Secretary Matt Hancock says “I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and have PPE fall from the sky.” The UK has now missed four opportunities to join the EU’s PPE scheme.

April 21st The Government fails to reach its target of face masks for the NHS, as it is revealed manufactures offers of help were met with silence. Instead millions of pieces of PPE are being shipped from the UK to Europe.

April 23rd - 24th Government announces testing kits for 10 million key workers. Orders run out within minutes as only 5,000 are made available.

April 25th UK death toll from Coronavirus overtakes that of The Blitz.

April 30th Boris Johnson announces the UK has succeeded in avoiding a tragedy that had engulfed other parts of the world - At this point, The UK has the 3rd highest death toll in the world.

May 1st The Government announces it has reached its target of 100,000 tests - They haven’t conducted the tests, but posted the testing kits.

May 4th The number of NHS staff that have died from Coronavirus overtakes the number of British Military personnel that died during the Iraq War.

May 5th The UK death toll becomes the highest in Europe.

May 6th Boris Johnson announces the UK could start to lift lockdown restrictions by next week.
		
Click to expand...

My main take out from that is to send my sympathies to anyone who had to watch the Stereophonics. Thoughts and prayers..


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## spongebob59 (May 10, 2020)

Plenty of these around now


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Plenty of these around now







Click to expand...

So you don’t believe in using hindsight to learn and plan for the future and also as a measuring stick of performance? That’s a rather blasé way of approaching a global pandemic, don’t you think?


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## huds1475 (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So you admit it took them too long, mistakes were made and that they’re clearly allocating testing resources where they aren’t being properly utilised and you think it’s impressive? Erm.
		
Click to expand...

Are you perfect?


----------



## IanM (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So you don’t believe in using hindsight to learn and plan for the future and also as a measuring stick of performance? That’s a rather blasé way of approaching a global pandemic, don’t you think?
		
Click to expand...


There's a world of difference between learning from it and criticising with it.

I've read lots of the sundays and the press is quite clear.  

"Remove restrictions now while keeping them in place!" 🤣🤣


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

IanM said:



			There's a world of difference between learning from it and criticising with it.

I've read lots of the sundays and the press is quite clear.

*"Remove restrictions now while keeping them in place!*" 🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

I suspect this is what the take out from the briefing this evening will be.  Kind of try and keep doing what you have been doing but you can have a few more freedoms. But we won't be specific apart from visiting garden centres.  And even then don't be a dick about it.  I may be wrong but I seem to remember they tried this approach already before the 'official' lockdown announcement and it wasn't very successful.  But may be the great British public will understand the importance a bit more now.  Than again if responses to Bojo's latest tweet are anything to go by as we are apparently living in a fascist state and it is all a hoax perpetuated by Biil Gates then we are screwed.


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## huds1475 (May 10, 2020)

IanM said:



			There's a world of difference between learning from it and criticising with it.

I've read lots of the sundays and the press is quite clear.

"Remove restrictions now while keeping them in place!" 🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

That’s the problem with the press!

Having seen the following tweet from Boris / Gvt, I think the message is pretty clear, unless one chooses to be obtuse about it.

Noted how the full thing doesn’t appear in the press too often, just the slogan at the bottom


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## IanM (May 10, 2020)

If I'd written the above poster, the words "where possible " after the 2m apart would be removed.   Other than that, looks clear and sensible to me.

It's not difficult.


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s why you rely heavily on CCTV but your saying you don’t??
Spent quite some time on jury service couple of years ago and EVERY  trial relied heavily on Cameras as there was no other evidence of note.
Just my experience , but feel free to tell me I don’t understand it.
		
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CCTV is just one source of potential evidence. The police don’t “rely” on CCTV, they consider it as an evidential source, the same as they do witnesses, forensics, mobile phone data, computer records, and countless other sources. 

clubchamp98 said:
I havnt seen cops on the beat for donkeys years .
They rely on cameras .

The above suggests your opinion that a visible police presence had been replaced by a reliance on cameras, which is not the case at all.

And I note in another reply you refer to the number of mobile speed camera fines issued. I’m not sure I see the relevance of that in your reply directly to me on the subject of community police presence and a reliance on cameras.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The "pubs can stay open, but don't go there" approach.
		
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And Johnson Snr telling his son that he is going for a pint.


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## IanM (May 10, 2020)

Embarrassing old dads eh?

.......and even Boris has one


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			CCTV is just one source of potential evidence. The police don’t “rely” on CCTV, they consider it as an evidential source, the same as they do witnesses, forensics, mobile phone data, computer records, and countless other sources. You suggested a visible police presence had been replaced by a reliance on cameras, which is not the case at all.

And I note in another reply you refer to the number of mobile speed camera fines issued. I’m not sure I see the relevance of that in your reply directly to me on the subject of community police presence and a reliance on cameras.
		
Click to expand...

That’s because you joined a conversation where SR asked the question “what stops people speeding “
I put a one word answer= cameras.
then the conversation evolved to you calling it cobblers.
Not listening to evidence.
And accusing me of curtain twitching in my front window!
Then telling me I don’t understand what I witness every day where I live.
That enough.


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s because you joined a conversation where SR asked the question “what stops people speeding “
I put a one word answer= cameras.
then the conversation evolved to you calling it cobblers.
Not listening to evidence.
And accusing me of curtain twitching in my front window!
Then telling me I don’t understand what I witness every day where I live.
That enough.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear. A rather lame attempt to sum up a discussion that covered a number of pages, and which evolved during that process, by then using selected comments and observations, largely out of context, simply to try and win an argument.

Your views are quite clear. That the police have retreated from the streets and allowed themselves to be replaced by cameras.

Your own limited experience of the judicial system is just that - limited experience. It hardly constitutes evidence. And where have I said that you, specifically, do not understand anything? My comment was not a direct response to you - had it been, I would have made it quite clear.

But if the cap fits......


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			That’s the problem with the press!

Having seen the following tweet from Boris / Gvt,* I think the message is pretty clear*, unless one chooses to be obtuse about it.

Noted how the full thing doesn’t appear in the press too often, just the slogan at the bottom 

View attachment 30554

Click to expand...

So the phrase 'limit contact with other people' is not up for a whole myriad of interpretation?  And what about 'Stay at home as much as possible?'.  What is 'as much as possible'? 

There are a significant minority of people who seemed to find ways to justify ignoring the current 'rules'. For better or worse we have created a situation where people need very direct instructions. And whilst this is not totally down to the current government, claiming this is very clear, based on what we have seen up to yet and the way society currently operates, is being a bit naive to me .


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s crazy that people think we shouldn’t hold out government to account for their actions.
		
Click to expand...

Everyone will have a chance to hold the government to account, its called an election. All of us having a moan on a media site is not holding anyone to account.

The only people who we can't hold to account is the media and some seem to be only to willing to feed of the scrapes of information that is thrown their way and take it as gospel.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

England break ranks with a United Kingdom by going it alone with 'Be Alert'
Directive not supported by Wales, NI and Scotland governments.

Sturgeon said she had to read the newspapers to find out what Johnson was planning.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			England break ranks with a United Kingdom by going it alone with 'Be Alert'
Directive not supported by Wales, NI and Scotland governments.

Sturgeon said she had to read the newspapers to find out what Johnson was planning.
		
Click to expand...

So being on todays Cobra meeting was up to much and she fell asleep.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Who new that all those years training to be A Lert would come in handy.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You’re not looking hard enough. Just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there although, with respect, they won’t spend their entire time on just your street - unless, of course, your local residents are giving them good reason to be there.

If you’re expecting to see a beat officer walking, then don’t because they are something of a rarity. But there’s more than one way of being active in communities.

And, sorry, your suggestion the police these days rely on cameras is absolute codswallop. It was that element of your post I took exception to.
		
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Billysboots said:



			Oh dear. A rather lame attempt to sum up a discussion that covered a number of pages, and which evolved during that process, by then using selected comments and observations, largely out of context, simply to try and win an argument.

Your views are quite clear. That the police have retreated from the streets and allowed themselves to be replaced by cameras.

Your own limited experience of the judicial system is just that - limited experience. It hardly constitutes evidence. And where have I said that you, specifically, do not understand anything? My comment was not a direct response to you - had it been, I would have made it quite clear.

But if the cap fits......
		
Click to expand...

well that cap certainly fits you.
I am wrong about where I live and you are right .


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## IanM (May 10, 2020)

2pm news... 

Whatever Boris says... its wrong according to Labour spokesman. 

Ah.  I see.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Our country needs lerts!
		
Click to expand...

I'm booked on a course to be a loof - I thought there were enough lerts.


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## sussexhacker (May 10, 2020)

We were told we were 2/3 weeks behind Italy/ France/ Spain at the start and they haven’t removed many restrictions yet so how can it be responsible for Boris to do anything other than say we continue as is but we’re going to get strict with all you absolute c#%ts who insist on going and seeing your mates and sunbathing on the beach when you have been told to stay home.
Why aren’t there more police out telling these pricks to go home


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You asked “what stops most people speeding”
Cameras is the answer.
The fines come if you get caught.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't writing about speeding or cameras, that remark was only to point out that fining people is a deterent, I was discussing breaking up large numbers of people in public places playing football and having picknicks close together, the discussion turned into Police not being able or even expected to break them  up and give out fines. I suggested Police could do it in the same way they give out fines for other offenses, the discussion then became confused with speeding cameras which was a red herring.  I didnt want to discuss speed cameras or even whether anyone had seen a Policeman walk past their house.

Ironically I saw a news article today that showed a Police van driving through a park loadhailing people to pack up and go home which they started doing.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

If you have to describe a message/notice it so obviously not a clear one.

BTW ....I was tempted to post Kaz's Lert but thought it might bust a few blood vessels.
Your Country Needs Lerts...….that definitely works. I can see the poster with Corporal Jones pointing his finger.


----------



## 3offTheTee (May 10, 2020)

So Boris announces some restrictions later and the usual suspects take advantage.

We have a spike in the numbers similar to Germany and Korea.

Would  this be good in the medium term as it may make people realise what is required?


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I wasn't writing about speeding or cameras, I was discussing breaking up large numbers of people in public places playing football and having picknicks close together, the discussion turned into Police not being able or even expected to break them  up and give out fines. I suggested Police could do it in the same way they give out fines for other offenses, the discussion then became confused with speeding cameras which was a red herring.  I didnt want to discuss speed cameras or even whether anyone had seen a Policeman walk past their house.

Ironically I saw a news article today that showed a Police van driving through a park loadhailing people to pack up and go home which they started doing.
		
Click to expand...

Read your post again you asked a direct question which I answered with one word!


SocketRocket said:



			You dont need to.  As I suggested you dont need to police everywhere, a few Police in a park with loudspeakers and handing out some fines will clear it, if you do it consistently the word gets around. One problem is the fines are too small, some £800 first fines would make an impression.  What stops most people speeding in cars or parking on yellow lines?
		
Click to expand...

it has a ? As well.


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## huds1475 (May 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the phrase 'limit contact with other people' is not up for a whole myriad of interpretation?  And what about 'Stay at home as much as possible?'.  What is 'as much as possible'? 

There are a significant minority of people who seemed to find ways to justify ignoring the current 'rules'. For better or worse we have created a situation where people need very direct instructions. And whilst this is not totally down to the current government, claiming this is very clear, based on what we have seen up to yet and the way society currently operates, is being a bit naive to me .
		
Click to expand...

Do you understand the following words...

"Stay at home as much as possible?"

I do. They're clear to me. Maybe I'm stupid?


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you have to describe a message/notice it so obviously not a clear one.

BTW ....I was tempted to post Kaz's Lert but thought it might bust a few blood vessels.
Your Country Needs Lerts...….that definitely works. I can see the poster with Corporal Jones pointing his finger.
		
Click to expand...

Go on, feel free. It will only be like all your other posts. Either anti RUK or irrelevant.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Oh dear. A rather lame attempt to sum up a discussion that covered a number of pages, and which evolved during that process, by then using selected comments and observations, largely out of context, simply to try and win an argument.

Your views are quite clear. That the police have retreated from the streets and allowed themselves to be replaced by cameras.

Your own limited experience of the judicial system is just that - limited experience. It hardly constitutes evidence. And where have I said that you, specifically, do not understand anything? My comment was not a direct response to you - had it been, I would have made it quite clear.

But if the cap fits......
		
Click to expand...

This difference of views leads me to liken it to what I imagine would be the case if someone criticised the army in WW1.  
The soldier on the front line rightly defends the army. But the public see it not prevailing and blame the army. 
Both are right - because the blame belongs to the MOD and the generals.

Frontline police have a really hard task. They are undermanned, underfunded, by the Government and  under supported by their leaders. Police leadership has been motivated since Bramshill by career advancement. That is what leaders are told is important. Butterfly appointments are commonplace.
Show me a high ranking officer now, who stayed in his original Force.
Move and advance. Couple of years here, three or four there.
Political decisions are made where operational ones should apply, all too frequently.
How many street officers are taken to form specialists squads born from political decisions made in Westminster and those arising from Public enquiries etc.  
Minorities shout loudly for offences to be policed and disproportionate responses are made to satisfy them. How many officers are now used examining the internet, for example.
All this denuded the ordinary officer strength that should be out there protecting the public from the villain, : the thief, the con man: the violent drunks:the bullies.
They are the ones free to operate to the extent that there are no go areas now, where there never were any.
And it is true that speeders are caught only because of cameras, for the same reason. And because they are efficient at doing that. 

But those that criticise the Police and emergency services, remember,
When the 💩 hits the fan, it's them that runs to the danger when everyone else ( understandably) runs the other way.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Read your post again you asked a direct question which I answered with one word!

it has a ? As well.
		
Click to expand...

I've read it again and looks fine, not a discussion about speed cameras but fining people who break social distance rules.

The question was rather rhetorical.


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I am wrong about where I live and you are right .
		
Click to expand...

Yes, much as you find it difficult to accept, I regret to say you probably are wrong.

I haven’t seen a bobby in the village where I live for months. But I know that they have been there, almost daily. I know that, not just because of what I do, but also because I play golf with our local bobby and there is nothing he doesn’t know about this community. Nothing. His knowledge is not something he gains by not getting out and speaking with local people. Surprisingly, even though I don’t see him and his colleagues, equally I don’t spend every waking hour looking for them, and there’s every possibility they might just have passed by when my attention was elsewhere. Or perhaps I might actually not have been at home. But hey, it happens. It might just happen down your way, too.

But far more significantly, my nearly 29 years’ experience of policing, experience you don’t have, is such that I can say with some certainty that there is not a community anywhere in this country which has been abandoned by its local police, regardless of what you think. That won’t mean a 24/7 presence in plain sight of your front door, but they will still be about.

Things might be bad after a decade of austerity. But they’re not quite that bad.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This difference of views leads me to liken it to what I imagine would be the case if someone criticised the army in WW1. 
The soldier on the front line rightly defends the army. But the public see it not prevailing and blame the army.
Both are right - because the blame belongs to the MOD and the generals.

Frontline police have a really hard task. They are undermanned, underfunded, by the Government and  under supported by their leaders. Police leadership has been motivated since Bramshill by career advancement. That is what leaders are told is important. Butterfly appointments are commonplace.
Show me a high ranking officer now, who stayed in his original Force.
Move and advance. Couple of years here, three or four there.
Political decisions are made where operational ones should apply, all too frequently.
How many street officers are taken to form specialists squads born from political decisions made in Westminster and those arising from Public enquiries etc. 
Minorities shout loudly for offences to be policed and disproportionate responses are made to satisfy them. How many officers are now used examining the internet, for example.
All this denuded the ordinary officer strength that should be out there protecting the public from the villain, : the thief, the con man: the violent drunks:the bullies.
They are the ones free to operate to the extent that there are no go areas now, where there never were any.
And it is true that speeders are caught only because of cameras, for the same reason. And because they are efficient at doing that.

But those that criticise the Police and emergency services, remember,
When the 💩 hits the fan, it's them that runs to the danger when everyone else ( understandably) runs the other way.
		
Click to expand...

That's all well and good but do you suggest the Police should not move people along who are breaking social distance rules in public parks. I saw a news item today where they did just that and it was very effective.


----------



## User62651 (May 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Do you understand the following words...

"Stay at home as much as possible?"

I do. They're clear to me. Maybe I'm stupid?
		
Click to expand...

You get it, loads won't or will choose to exploit the wording to suit. Why not just keep it as 'Stay at Home' at least until they get the infection rates down more and drop the 'as much as possible' part? Seems Wlaes and scotland have opted to stay clear on that message. Serious concerns over a 2nd wave if this backfires.

tweet from pro govt Harry cole - cabinet ignored again on this very messaging point. Why?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259416232987627521

Finally. Interesting photo, PM with a slightly glaikit look - captions anyone?


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This difference of views leads me to liken it to what I imagine would be the case if someone criticised the army in WW1. 
The soldier on the front line rightly defends the army. But the public see it not prevailing and blame the army.
Both are right - because the blame belongs to the MOD and the generals.

Frontline police have a really hard task. They are undermanned, underfunded, by the Government and  under supported by their leaders. Police leadership has been motivated since Bramshill by career advancement. That is what leaders are told is important. Butterfly appointments are commonplace.
Show me a high ranking officer now, who stayed in his original Force.
Move and advance. Couple of years here, three or four there.
Political decisions are made where operational ones should apply, all too frequently.
How many street officers are taken to form specialists squads born from political decisions made in Westminster and those arising from Public enquiries etc. 
Minorities shout loudly for offences to be policed and disproportionate responses are made to satisfy them. How many officers are now used examining the internet, for example.
All this denuded the ordinary officer strength that should be out there protecting the public from the villain, : the thief, the con man: the violent drunks:the bullies.
They are the ones free to operate to the extent that there are no go areas now, where there never were any.
And it is true that speeders are caught only because of cameras, for the same reason. And because they are efficient at doing that.

But those that criticise the Police and emergency services, remember,
When the 💩 hits the fan, it's them that runs to the danger when everyone else ( understandably) runs the other way.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I agree.
I would love to see police on my road .
But the brutal fact is they are not.
Low level crime now is just a crime number for your insurance.
My cameras comment still stands as that’s my experience of the police over the last few years.
I don’t blame the police I blame where the buck stops at the top.


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## AmandaJR (May 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you have to describe a message/notice it so obviously not a clear one.

BTW ....I was tempted to post Kaz's Lert but thought it might bust a few blood vessels.
Your Country Needs Lerts...….that definitely works. I can see the poster with Corporal Jones pointing his finger.
		
Click to expand...

Feel free. You flatter yourself if you think your musings have that much impact


----------



## AmandaJR (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			December 31st China alerts WHO to new virus.

January 23rd Study reveals a third of China’s patients require intensive care.

January 24th Boris Johnson misses first Cobra meeting.

January 29th Boris Johnson misses second Cobra meeting.

January 31st The NHS declares first ever ‘Level 4 critical incident’ Meanwhile, the government declines to join European scheme to source PPE.

February 5th Boris Johnson misses third Cobra meeting.

February 12th Boris Johnson misses fourth Cobra meeting. Exeter University published study warning Coronavirus could infect 45 million people in the UK if left unchallenged.

February 13th Boris Johnson misses conference call with European leaders.

February 14th Boris Johnson goes away on holiday. Aides are told keeps Johnson’s briefing notes short or he will not read them.

February 18th Johnson misses fifth cobra meeting.

February 26th Boris Johnson announces ‘Herd Immunity’ strategy, announcing some people will lose loved ones. Government document is leaked, predicting half a million Brits could die in ‘worse case scenario’

February 29th Boris Johnson retreats to his country manor. NHS warns of ‘PPE shortage nightmare’ Stockpiles have dwindled or expired after years of austerity cuts.

March 2nd Boris Johnson attends his first Cobra meeting, declining another opportunity to join European PPE scheme. Government’s own scientists say over half a million Brit’s could die if virus left unrestrained. Johnson tells country “We are very, very well prepared.”

March 3rd Scientists urge Government to advise public not to shake hands. Boris Johnson brags about shaking hands of Coronavirus patients.

March 4th Government stops providing daily updates on virus following a 70% spike in UK cases. They will later U-turn on this amid accusations they are withholding vital information.

March 5th Boris Johnson tells public to ‘wash their hands and business as usual’

March 7th Boris Johnson joins 82,000 people at Six Nations match.

March 9th After Ireland cancels St Patrick’s day parades, the government says there’s “No Rationale” for cancelling sporting events.

March 10th - 13th Cheltenham takes place, more than a quarter of a million people attend.

March 11th 3,000 Atletico Madrid fans fly to Liverpool.

March 12th Boris Johnson states banning events such as Cheltenham will have little effect. The Imperial College study finds the government’s plan is projected to kill half a million people.

March 13th The FA suspends the Premier League, citing an absence of Government guidance. Britain is invited to join European scheme for joint purchase of ventilators, and refuses. Boris Johnson lifts restrictions of those arriving from Coronavirus hot spots.

March 14th Government is still allowing mass gatherings, as Stereophonics play to 5,000 people in Cardiff.

March 16th Boris Johnson asks Britons not to go to pubs, but allows them to stay open. During a conference call, Johnson jokes that push to build new ventilators should be called ‘Operation Last Gasp’

March 19th Hospital patients with Coronavirus are returned to care homes in a bid to free up hospital space. What follows is a boom of virus cases in care homes.

March 20th The Government states that PPE shortage crisis is “Completely resolved” Less than two weeks later, the British Medical Association reports an acute shortage in PPE.

March 23rd UK goes into lockdown.

March 26th Boris Johnson is accused of putting ‘Brexit over Breathing’ by not joining EU ventilator scheme. The government then state they had not joined the scheme because they had ‘missed the email’

April 1st The Evening Standard publishes that just 0.17% of NHS staff have been tested for the virus.

April 3rd The UK death toll overtakes China.

April 5th 17.5 million Antibody tests, ordered by the government and described by Boris Johnson as a ‘game changer’ are found to be a failure.

April 7th Boris Johnson is moved to intensive care with Coronavirus.

April 16th Flights bring 15,000 people a day into the UK - without virus testing.

April 17th Health Secretary Matt Hancock says “I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and have PPE fall from the sky.” The UK has now missed four opportunities to join the EU’s PPE scheme.

April 21st The Government fails to reach its target of face masks for the NHS, as it is revealed manufactures offers of help were met with silence. Instead millions of pieces of PPE are being shipped from the UK to Europe.

April 23rd - 24th Government announces testing kits for 10 million key workers. Orders run out within minutes as only 5,000 are made available.

April 25th UK death toll from Coronavirus overtakes that of The Blitz.

April 30th Boris Johnson announces the UK has succeeded in avoiding a tragedy that had engulfed other parts of the world - At this point, The UK has the 3rd highest death toll in the world.

May 1st The Government announces it has reached its target of 100,000 tests - They haven’t conducted the tests, but posted the testing kits.

May 4th The number of NHS staff that have died from Coronavirus overtakes the number of British Military personnel that died during the Iraq War.

May 5th The UK death toll becomes the highest in Europe.

May 6th Boris Johnson announces the UK could start to lift lockdown restrictions by next week.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps if your timeline also had things such as Nightingale Hospitals, furlough, support for self-employed, support for small businesses etc then it would be more balanced.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Everyone will have a chance to hold the government to account, its called an election. All of us having a moan on a media site is not holding anyone to account.

The only people who we can't hold to account is the media and some seem to be only to willing to feed of the scrapes of information that is thrown their way and take it as gospel.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, "the media"... Seems for 'the right' the penny is dropping what a bunch of lying charlatans much of the press/media is... Sadly come the next election both sides will have kissed and made up and be happy back together attacking the left 😞✌...


----------



## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			You get it, loads won't or will choose to exploit the wording to suit. Why not just keep it as 'Stay at Home' at least until they get the infection rates down more and drop the 'as much as possible' part? Seems Wlaes and scotland have opted to stay clear on that message. Serious concerns over a 2nd wave if this backfires.

tweet from pro govt Harry cole - cabinet ignored again on this very messaging point. Why?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259416232987627521

Finally. Interesting photo, PM with a slightly glaikit look - captions anyone?

View attachment 30553

Click to expand...

Cabinet raging, yep I would expect a hack to come up with that. Didnt realise you followed the mussings of the Mail


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Yes, much as you find it difficult to accept, I regret to say you probably are wrong.

I haven’t seen a bobby in the village where I live for months. But I know that they have been there, almost daily. I know that, not just because of what I do, but also because I play golf with our local bobby and there is nothing he doesn’t know about this community. Nothing. His knowledge is not something he gains by not getting out and speaking with local people. Surprisingly, even though I don’t see him and his colleagues, equally I don’t spend every waking hour looking for them, and there’s every possibility they might just have passed by when my attention was elsewhere. Or perhaps I might actually not have been at home. But hey, it happens. It might just happen down your way, too.

But far more significantly, my nearly 29 years’ experience of policing, experience you don’t have, is such that I can say with some certainty that there is not a community anywhere in this country which has been abandoned by its local police, regardless of what you think. That won’t mean a 24/7 presence in plain sight of your front door, but they will still be about.

Things might be bad after a decade of austerity. But they’re not quite that bad.
		
Click to expand...

Yes as I thought you are right and I am wrong , how silly of me.
I live in a suburb in a major city and have seen cops in the city centre on foot but knowhere  else.
When I don’t golf I go for a very long walk every day ,I don’t see any except whizzing in their cars.
That’s not community policing to me sorry.
Can’t make it any plainer.
I am not having a go at the police far from it I would love to see them more.
But I don’t.


----------



## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Ah, "the media"... Seems for 'the right' the penny is dropping what a bunch of lying charlatans much of the press/media is... Sadly come the next election both sides will have kissed and made up and be happy back together attacking the left 😞✌...
		
Click to expand...

What's "the right" got to do with it. Most of us who have half a brian have known it for years.

Momentum continue to use "the right" against all those that refuse to agree with their extreme views.


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Low level crime now is just a crime number for your insurance.
		
Click to expand...

Okay. Ball in your court now.

Your garden shed gets broken into, and a lawnmower for which you don’t have a serial number is stolen.

There are no forensic opportunities, you have no CCTV, and because the theft happened overnight there were no witnesses, as you and your neighbours were all tucked up in bed. 

What, exactly, would you have the police do? They’re human beings, not magicians. All you will ever get in those circumstances is a crime number because, in the absence of a crime pattern, evidence or intelligence there is nothing to investigate.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've read it again and looks fine, not a discussion about speed cameras but fining people who break social distance rules.

The question was rather rhetorical.
		
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But a question ?
So if all your questions were ignored would you be ok with that.?


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes as I thought you are right and I am wrong , how silly of me.
I live in a suburb in a major city and have seen cops in the city centre on foot but knowhere  else.
When I don’t golf I go for a very long walk every day ,I don’t see any except whizzing in their cars.
That’s not community policing to me sorry.
Can’t make it any plainer.
I am not having a go at the police far from it I would love to see them more.
But I don’t.
		
Click to expand...

You will see foot officers in city centres. You’re unlikely to see them elsewhere. That may not be community policing to you. But community policing is not about feet on the street these days.

You see? You don’t understand policing methods do you? Despite your week or so on jury service.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Okay. Ball in your court now.

Your garden shed gets broken into, and a lawnmower for which you don’t have a serial number is stolen.

There are no forensic opportunities, you have no CCTV, and because the theft happened overnight there were no witnesses, as you and your neighbours were all tucked up in bed.

What, exactly, would you have the police do? They’re human beings, not magicians. All you will ever get in those circumstances is a crime number because, in the absence of a crime pattern, evidence or intelligence there is nothing to investigate.
		
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I would do what I have done for the last 20 odd years just not bother as you say you can’t do anything .
But the last time my car got broken into the police just gave me a crime number and would not look for any forensic evidence.
Adding insult to injury I received a phone call three days later asking me to score out of ten the service I received from the police, you couldn’t make it up.


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## MegaSteve (May 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What's "the right" got to do with it. Most of us who have half a brian have known it for years.

Momentum continue to use "the right" against all those that refuse to agree with their extreme views.
		
Click to expand...

As it was Sunday I was trying to be polite... Should've stuck with 'team blue rinse' 😉✌... And, I've been told you only need half a brian to read the mail...


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## sussexhacker (May 10, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Perhaps if your timeline also had things such as Nightingale Hospitals, furlough, support for self-employed, support for small businesses etc then it would be more balanced.
		
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It doesn’t need to be balanced it’s just pointing out the atrocious way Boris has handled the crisis, not quite trump level but not exactly Merkel like either is he.

The only positives you can come up with were the brainchild’s of his chancellor and scientific team of which I take it none have been consulted about this change in advice


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## sussexhacker (May 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Do you understand the following words...

"Stay at home as much as possible?"

I do. They're clear to me. Maybe I'm stupid?
		
Click to expand...

it’s not about you being able to understand it it’s about the other bellends who haven’t listened to the current advice let alone being told they have more freedom than they thought they did before


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			But a question ?
So if all your questions were ignored would you be ok with that.?
		
Click to expand...

The question was pointing out that fines for speeding,  dropping litter, parking etc are there as a deterent.  The point I was making wasnt about police going down your road or speed cameras, it was about moving people on and fining them if they are breaking social distance rules so it was a deterent to them and others. As I have already pointed out on this thread I saw Police doing this on the News today and it was very effective.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As it was Sunday I was trying to be polite... Should've stuck with 'team blue rinse' 😉✌... And, I've been told you only need half a brian to read the mail...
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't know it seems the only mindless people who read it are those that spend their time denying it and then quote it.

Not sure what the granny blue rinse has to do with the views of the marxist in momentum.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			it’s not about you being able to understand it it’s about the other bellends who haven’t listened to the current advice let alone being told they have more freedom than they thought they did before
		
Click to expand...

If the bellends didnt get the last message the chances are the wont get any message.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You will see foot officers in city centres. You’re unlikely to see them elsewhere. That may not be community policing to you. But community policing is not about feet on the street these days.

You see? You don’t understand policing methods do you? Despite your week or so on jury service.
		
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What a crass last remark.
I spent 11 weeks altogether as I was asked to do a murder trial.
The only one that didn’t involve cameras.
Your right I don’t understand your methods anymore isn’t that the problem ? And I don’t think I am alone.


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## Foxholer (May 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			... And, I've been told you only need *half a brian* to read the mail...
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			...Most of us who have *half a brian* ...
		
Click to expand...

H'mm! How appropriate!


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The question was pointing out that fines for speeding,  dropping litter, parking etc are there as a deterent.  The point I was making wasnt about police going down your road or speed cameras, it was about moving people on and fining them if they are breaking social distance rules so it was a deterent to them and others. As I have already pointed out on this thread I saw Police doing this on the News today and it was very effective.
		
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying .
But you asked a question I just answered it with one word.
I can’t put it any plainer..


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## sussexhacker (May 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If the bellends didnt get the last message the chances are the wont get any message.
		
Click to expand...

So it’s not going to make things any better telling them to go out but be careful if you can


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! How appropriate!

Click to expand...

Glad you got it, at your age it can take a little time 😉


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			You get it, loads won't or will choose to exploit the wording to suit. Why not just keep it as 'Stay at Home' at least until they get the infection rates down more and drop the 'as much as possible' part? Seems Wlaes and scotland have opted to stay clear on that message. Serious concerns over a 2nd wave if this backfires.

tweet from pro govt Harry cole - cabinet ignored again on this very messaging point. Why?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259416232987627521

Finally. Interesting photo, PM with a slightly glaikit look - captions anyone?

View attachment 30553

Click to expand...

Ah, that'll be the Harry Cole whose long time partner was Carrie Symonds till Boris 'stole' her. Yeah, Cole doesn't have an axe to grind...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Do you understand the following words...

"Stay at home as much as possible?"

I do. They're clear to me. Maybe I'm stupid?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but 'as much as possible' has a load of different meanings to a load of different folks
eg Take exercise AMAP
Drink water AMAP
Have sex AMAP

BBC Scotland has a moral dilemma tonight with the Johnson address timed for half an hour of prime time Sunday night TV. 
Gives a whole new twist to 'and now for viewers in Scotland' especially as it is a pre-recorded message.
Perhaps the new rUK have stitched him up.


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## hovis (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			What, exactly, would you have the police do? They’re human beings, not magicians. All you will ever get in those circumstances is a crime number because, in the absence of a crime pattern, evidence or intelligence there is nothing to investigate.
		
Click to expand...

Yet they had my iemi number and a way to track its location and they didn't.  It was a £500 phone


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The question was pointing out that fines for speeding,  dropping litter, parking etc are there as a deterent.  The point I was making wasnt about police going down your road or speed cameras, it was about moving people on and fining them if they are breaking social distance rules so it was a deterent to them and others. *As I have already pointed out on this thread I saw Police doing this on the News today and it was very effective.*

Click to expand...

Was it?  Not according to the Police it wasn't;

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...r-uk-lockdown-split-as-britain-bakes-11985648


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Perhaps if your timeline also had things such as Nightingale Hospitals, furlough, support for self-employed, support for small businesses etc then it would be more balanced.
		
Click to expand...

Ah so it’s a one mess up, one positive action system that you want?

Making Britain great again. Truly.


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Are you perfect?
		
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No. So I’d look at the mistakes I made. And learn from them. So your point is...?


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## drdel (May 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			England break ranks with a United Kingdom by going it alone with 'Be Alert'
Directive not supported by Wales, NI and Scotland governments.

Sturgeon said she had to read the newspapers to find out what Johnson was planning.
		
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If she take any notice of the newspapers then she is in need of an education.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry but 'as much as possible' has a load of different meanings to a load of different folks
eg Take exercise AMAP
Drink water AMAP
Have sex AMAP

BBC Scotland has a moral dilemma tonight with the Johnson address timed for half an hour of prime time Sunday night TV. 
Gives a whole new twist to 'and now for viewers in Scotland'.
		
Click to expand...

And dont forget your beloved leader

Exercise AMP

Ps did you watch her sensible address rather than watch the BBC headlines running along the bottom.

It seems, the Cobra meeting,  the one she attended,  apart from some minor changes and differences(her words) between England and Scotland the main policy is the same.


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## drdel (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			it’s not about you being able to understand it it’s about the other bellends who haven’t listened to the current advice let alone being told they have more freedom than they thought they did before
		
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Issue direct commands and then be accused of being a fascist and/or dictator


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## AmandaJR (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Ah so it’s a one mess up, one positive action system that you want?

Making Britain great again. Truly.
		
Click to expand...

That's a rather silly response. I am sure mistakes have been made, some due to the unique nature of the pandemic and some due to poor decision making. There have also been excellent decisions made over things more controllable. Compared to many other countries we have tried to look after those who are suffering financially and also ensured the NHS has not been overwhelmed.

Hindsight is a useful tool to learn from but, unless there's a "we told you so" that was blatantly ignored I'm not sure it's a useful tool to criticise so much.


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## williamalex1 (May 10, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! How appropriate!

Click to expand...

Leave Hobbit out of it ,


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## Italian outcast (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, that'll be the Harry Cole whose long time partner was Carrie Symonds till Boris 'stole' her. Yeah, Cole doesn't have an axe to grind...

Click to expand...

just part of the opera


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## User62651 (May 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Cabinet raging, yep I would expect a hack to come up with that. Didnt realise you followed the mussings of the Mail
		
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Used to buy the Mail some days in the time before smartphones and when politics was something we weren't all consumed by day to day, no escaping it. Do find regular breaks of 2 or 3 days off here is a positive thing though. Like playing with a wobbly tooth, posting on here does no good but sometimes you just can't help it.


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## sussexhacker (May 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			Issue direct commands and then be accused of being a fascist and/or dictator
		
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No ones going to accuse him of being a dictator for telling people they have to stay inside, the lowest form of intelligence should be able to understand that order in the current circumstances unfortunately for us there appear to be a lot who don’t fall into that category in this country
It’s quite clear all the people on this thread that are up Boris ass and die hard tories who think he’s done everything he could have done so far
Here’s a reality check for you... he’s messed up


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Do you understand the following words...

"Stay at home as much as possible?"

I do. They're clear to me. Maybe I'm stupid?
		
Click to expand...

Individual understanding and interpretation are two different things.  And if you want something to be adhered to then it is usually better to remove as much room for individual interpretation as possible.


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## drdel (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You will see foot officers in city centres. You’re unlikely to see them elsewhere. That may not be community policing to you. But community policing is not about feet on the street these days.

You see? You don’t understand policing methods do you? Despite your week or so on jury service.
		
Click to expand...

My car was broken into, they wrenched the steering wheel off while trying to force the column lock !

The duty officer responding to my telephone call said "...could you drive around to use as the SoC guys aren't in today being Sunday..." I did ask if the traffic patrol officers would be OK with me driving it using wrench to steer !!!. Reply was " Here's a crime number, Sir". Unfortunately, while I'd wish it was a story - it's true.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			If she take any notice of the newspapers then she is in need of an education.
		
Click to expand...

Missed the point or desperate deflection....the jury is out.


----------



## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			That's a rather silly response. I am sure mistakes have been made, some due to the unique nature of the pandemic and some due to poor decision making. There have also been excellent decisions made over things more controllable. Compared to many other countries we have tried to look after those who are suffering financially and also ensured the NHS has not been overwhelmed.

Hindsight is a useful tool to learn from but, unless there's a "we told you so" that was blatantly ignored I'm not sure it's a useful tool to criticise so much.
		
Click to expand...

It’s apathy like this which keeps poor governments in charge and a poor press not questioning them.


----------



## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would do what I have done for the last 20 odd years just not bother as you say you can’t do anything .
But the last time my car got broken into the police just gave me a crime number and would not look for any forensic evidence.
Adding insult to injury I received a phone call three days later asking me to score out of ten the service I received from the police, you couldn’t make it up.
		
Click to expand...

The police don’t generally fingerprint for thefts from motor vehicles. Haven’t done for donkey’s years. You see? Something else you don’t understand and yet see fit to criticise. 

There’s a real theme developing here, the most worrying of which is the fact that you seem quite willing to dismiss 29 years of policing experience as irrelevant because it doesn’t suit your argument to accept that, just maybe, I might know what I’m talking about.


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, that'll be the Harry Cole whose long time partner was Carrie Symonds till Boris 'stole' her. Yeah, Cole doesn't have an axe to grind...

Click to expand...

It's hilarious that whenever someone has anything negative to say against this current lot you always find something to excuse and dismiss it as bias/spin or a personal vendetta.


----------



## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Your right I don’t understand your methods anymore
		
Click to expand...

Which merely makes your choice to criticise even more bizarre.

And I’m not going to apologise for saying this. Two weeks on jury service or eleven, neither come close to making you even remotely knowledgable about modern policing.

29 years as a police officer on the other hand...........

🙄


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			No ones going to accuse him of being a dictator for telling people they have to stay inside, the lowest form of intelligence should be able to understand that order in the current circumstances unfortunately for us there appear to be a lot who don’t fall into that category in this country
It’s quite clear all the people on this thread that are up Boris ass and die hard tories who think he’s done everything he could have done so far
Here’s a reality check for you... he’s messed up
		
Click to expand...

What about those of us that arnt die hard Torys and are sensible enough to realise that's what we have and where appropriate have to get on and deal with it.


----------



## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			It's hilarious that whenever someone has anything negative to say against this current lot you always find something to excuse and dismiss it as bias/spin or a personal vendetta.
		
Click to expand...

You're confusing what I think of Boris and his performance with what I think about different journo's and interviewers. If that piece had come from someone who has no (potential) axe to grind I'd take it seriously. Obviously you're not quite so discerning. 

I could say that maybe I'm not quite so naïve as some who'll take anything from any source.... BTW, I think the govt's performance from before lockdown, right the way through leaves a lot to be desired, and that's me being polite.


----------



## AmandaJR (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s apathy like this which keeps poor governments in charge and a poor press not questioning them.
		
Click to expand...

Apathy - *Apathy*_ is a lack of feeling, emotion, interest, or concern about something.  Apathy is a state of indifference, or the suppression of emotions such as concern, excitement, motivation, or passion. An apathetic individual has an absence of interest in or concern about emotional, social, spiritual, philosophical, or physical life and the world. _

I often wonder if you're as rude in person or just behind a keyboard.


----------



## drdel (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			No ones going to accuse him of being a dictator for telling people they have to stay inside, the lowest form of intelligence should be able to understand that order in the current circumstances unfortunately for us there appear to be a lot who don’t fall into that category in this country
It’s quite clear all the people on this thread that are up Boris ass and die hard tories who think he’s done everything he could have done so far
Here’s *a reality check* for you... he’s messed up
		
Click to expand...

I guess you must have the proof.


----------



## sussexhacker (May 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			I guess you must have the proof.
		
Click to expand...

Not attending the meetings early on

Not imposing lockdown earlier when it was clear it was necessary 

Not having stockpiles of PPE (not specifically Boris but the tories have been in power long enough that it’s their fault)

Not actually imposing lockdown, it’s blatantly obvious a large number of people have ignored the rules

How many more do you want before you admit he’s not handled it perfectly


----------



## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The police don’t generally fingerprint for thefts from motor vehicles. Haven’t done for donkey’s years. You see? Something else you don’t understand and yet see fit to criticise.

There’s a real theme developing here, the most worrying of which is the fact that you seem quite willing to dismiss 29 years of policing experience as irrelevant because it doesn’t suit your argument to accept that, just maybe, I might know what I’m talking about.
		
Click to expand...

With the greatest respect, as a 'client' he is permitted to criticise. He has an expectation based on days gone by. Maybe his complaint would be better directed at the Home Secretary and/or the local Police Commissioner. Equally, as a service provider maybe you could take it on board too in a more customer friendly way.... just saying...


----------



## Beezerk (May 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What about those of us that arnt die hard Torys and are sensible enough to realise that's what we have and where appropriate have to get on and deal with it.
		
Click to expand...

Please stop it with your politically unbiased and sensible posting 🤣


----------



## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You're confusing what I think of Boris and his performance with what I think about different journo's and interviewers. If that piece had come from someone who has no (potential) axe to grind I'd take it seriously. Obviously you're not quite so discerning. 

I could say that maybe I'm not quite so naïve as some who'll take anything from any source.... BTW, I think the govt's performance from before lockdown, right the way through leaves a lot to be desired, and that's me being polite.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting he cant separate his personal life and his professional career? Do you really think he's only reporting to get back at symonds or Johnson? 

I know you're better than that.


----------



## drdel (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Not attending the meetings early on

*PM's do not attend all meetings; relevant Cabinet minister chairs specific scenarios in their sphere*

Not imposing lockdown earlier when it was clear it was necessary

*Says who?*

Not having stockpiles of PPE (not specifically Boris but the tories have been in power long enough that it’s their fault)
*
The Trusts are given the money they decide their procurement policy/sourcing; some had plenty some under estimated*

Not actually imposing lockdown, it’s blatantly obvious a large number of people have ignored the rules

*Democracy, Policing by consent in the absence of specific laws and regulations.*

How many more do you want before you admit he’s not handled it perfectly
		
Click to expand...

*Try harder. Nothing more than your views; just don't declare them as facts.*

*Not always wise to make assumptions about political leaning.*


----------



## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's all well and good but do you suggest the Police should not move people along who are breaking social distance rules in public parks. I saw a news item today where they did just that and it was very effective.
		
Click to expand...

No, not at all. If the police are tasked with policing that area, or are there and see it, then yes, Police it.  But don't forget, what you see from afar might not tell the whole story. Experienced officers may foresee a worse scenario about to develop if the ticket issue is pushed on a large group who all consider there is nothing wrong being done. It is a difficult business enforcing this type of "offence" . Ordinary people stressed by the lockdown may  too readily see plod abusing their powers etc etc. Especially if they are expecting an imminent change speculated by the media.
It's not always black and white SR.

As an aside - months from now, it will be interesting to see how many getting tickets , pay them. Of those that don't , how many  get followed up with summonses and court appearances.
Tickets given out doesn't mean that they are all going to pay a fine.


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## Wolf (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Not attending the meetings early on

Not imposing lockdown earlier when it was clear it was necessary

Not having stockpiles of PPE (not specifically Boris but the tories have been in power long enough that it’s their fault)

Not actually imposing lockdown, it’s blatantly obvious a large number of people have ignored the rules

How many more do you want before you admit he’s not handled it perfectly
		
Click to expand...

So many falsehoods in this post...

It is common for a PM not to chair ot even attend Cobra meetings, often is done by the relevant secretary of state for that issue.

PPE whether people like it nor not the stockpile issues have always been direct responsibility of the NHS trusts and their logistics teams.

Imposing lockdown or otherwise wouldn't have stopped breaches at all, you can't stop ignorant, selfish or self entitled dickheads from doing what they want to do. Even with a harsher lockdown people will still breach it, because our country is full of people that know best or simply think it doesn't apply to them.

He hasn't handled it perfectly, there are lots the government has got wrong but your quoting things that simply are matter of opinion not fact

Edit: @drdel  literally just beat me to it 😂


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Was it?  Not according to the Police it wasn't;

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...r-uk-lockdown-split-as-britain-bakes-11985648

Click to expand...

There was a film sequence on the BBC News showing a Police van with a loudhailer telling people in a park to pack up and go home, everyone was packing up and going home. Unless I am just making it up.


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## Beezerk (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Not imposing lockdown earlier when it was clear it was necessary
		
Click to expand...

I was on holiday in Mexico during late February, I think we landed at Manchester on the 1st March iirc.
The Coronavirus wasn't even a subject of discussion while we were away on holiday, never mind considering a lockdown. It sort of got a bit of coverage on the US news channels but I think that was only because there were some US citizens stuck on a cruise liner.
BJ should have maybe asked you and your crystal ball into the Cobra meetings he didn't attend 🤣


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, not at all. If the police are tasked with policing that area, or are there and see it, then yes, Police it.  But don't forget, what you see from afar might not tell the whole story. Experienced officers may foresee a worse scenario about to develop if the ticket issue is pushed on a large group who all consider there is nothing wrong being done. It is a difficult business enforcing this type of "offence" . Ordinary people stressed by the lockdown may  too readily see plod abusing their powers etc etc. Especially if they are expecting an imminent change speculated by the media.
It's not always black and white SR.

As an aside - months from now, it will be interesting to see how many getting tickets , pay them. Of those that don't , how many  get followed up with summonses and court appearances.
Tickets given out doesn't mean that they are all going to pay a fine.
		
Click to expand...

Dont unpaid penalties end up with going to court?


----------



## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Are you suggesting he cant separate his personal life and his professional career? Do you really think he's only reporting to get back at symonds or Johnson?

I know you're better than that.
		
Click to expand...

I'm saying there's a potential for him not to be as objective as he should be. Would he do it deliberately? I don't know him well enough to say yes or no about any biases he may have. Is there a possibility of him having a subconscious bias? Yes there is.

Do you know he's being 100% objective, or even spinning it a little to make good copy? 

Like I said, from another journo I'd give it more credibility.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Okay. Ball in your court now.

Your garden shed gets broken into, and a lawnmower for which you don’t have a serial number is stolen.

There are no forensic opportunities, you have no CCTV, and because the theft happened overnight there were no witnesses, as you and your neighbours were all tucked up in bed.

What, exactly, would you have the police do? They’re human beings, not magicians. All you will ever get in those circumstances is a crime number because, in the absence of a crime pattern, evidence or intelligence there is nothing to investigate.
		
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Billy
There is only one reason for this method of investigation. There are not enough officers as against the prevalence of the crimes. 
Because of that, prioritising is practised and so officers do not attend.
I won't go into the benefits of them attending as they did in the past, but it is not the fact that what happens now is the best way to deal with the burglary.
As for failing to trace property which is traceable ( the phone example) , that is not right. It may be policy but it isn't the right way to police.


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			With the greatest respect, as a 'client' he is permitted to criticise. He has an expectation based on days gone by. Maybe his complaint would be better directed at the Home Secretary and/or the local Police Commissioner. Equally, as a service provider maybe you could take it on board too in a more customer friendly way.... just saying...
		
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I absolutely accept people have a right to criticise. But when it goes beyond criticism to the point where someone maintains they are right, and that a huge amount of job related experience counts for nothing, it really grinds my gears.

I’m a grizzled old cop I’m afraid, and when it comes to customer service in the face of criticism which is very often unwarranted, I’m afraid the sunny disposition and cheery smile was beaten out of me some time ago.

I should avoid political threads - when they start to involve my job they invariably become bad for my health and, as a direct consequence, everyone else’s.


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There was a film sequence on the BBC News showing a Police van with a loudhailer telling people in a park to pack up and go home, everyone was packing up and going home. Unless I am just making it up.
		
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Looked extremely like a park in Hackney, the area that the police posted that they were fighting a losing battle trying to clear.  It's in the link I attached.  

And yes you are making it up; because nowhere does that film footage show anyone going home; it follows no-one to their front door.  They will appear to clear up, walk a little way in the opposite direction & set up again.  If the police stop to directly deal with one family, the issuing of the tickets & paperwork will buy everyone else half an hour in the sun.  If one lot refuse details then the police either walk away or they arrest them, which takes them out of the park for the rest of the day, buying the whole park a free one.  If you want to stop that, you go down mob handed, clear the entire park in one sweep, post bodies at the entry points & have a few roving patrols inside to catch anyone that's bunked in over the fence.  I know this first hand.

If you think what you saw in that video was a park being successfully cleared then you really do not have a clue as to how this sort of thing works.


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## sussexhacker (May 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I was on holiday in Mexico during late February, I think we landed at Manchester on the 1st March iirc.
The Coronavirus wasn't even a subject of discussion while we were away on holiday, never mind considering a lockdown. 
BJ should have maybe asked you and your crystal ball into the Cobra meetings he didn't attend 🤣
		
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So because it wasn’t being talked about in the media that means Boris can’t do anything about it?

If only it was clearly a problem in other countries and he could have foreseen an issue coming in through our open borders


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Apathy - *Apathy*_ is a lack of feeling, emotion, interest, or concern about something.  Apathy is a state of indifference, or the suppression of emotions such as concern, excitement, motivation, or passion. An apathetic individual has an absence of interest in or concern about emotional, social, spiritual, philosophical, or physical life and the world. _

I often wonder if you're as rude in person or just behind a keyboard.
		
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You’re quite old to need to look up the definition for apathy but the word isn’t always used in its harshest terms. In this case it was just to point out your apathy in allowing the government to do things unquestioned, which is undeniably your view here. If you’re so easily offended I would suggest you don’t discuss such weighty matters.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Looked extremely like a park in Hackney, the area that the police posted that they were fighting a losing battle trying to clear.  It's in the link I attached. 

And yes you are making it up; because nowhere does that film footage show anyone going home; it follows no-one to their front door.  They will appear to clear up, walk a little way in the opposite direction & set up again.  If the police stop to directly deal with one family, the issuing of the tickets & paperwork will buy everyone else half an hour in the sun.  If one lot refuse details then the police either walk away or they arrest them, which takes them out of the park for the rest of the day, buying the whole park a free one.  If you want to stop that, you go down mob handed, clear the entire park in one sweep, post bodies at the entry points & have a few roving patrols inside to catch anyone that's bunked in over the fence.  I know this first hand.

If you think what you saw in that video was a park being successfully cleared then you really do not have a clue as to how this sort of thing works.
		
Click to expand...

Wheres that water cannon when you want it 🤣🤣


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## williamalex1 (May 10, 2020)

Take say a family of 5 who have been isolating in their high rise flat for weeks, and surely virus free.
Should they be entitled to some exercise and maybe a picnic in the local park together ?.
As long as they social distance from others


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Which merely makes your choice to criticise even more bizarre.

And I’m not going to apologise for saying this. Two weeks on jury service or eleven, neither come close to making you even remotely knowledgable about modern policing.

29 years as a police officer on the other hand...........

🙄
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find it was you who started the criticism with the Cobblers jibe!


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## AmandaJR (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You’re quite old to need to look up the definition for apathy but the word isn’t always used in its harshest terms. In this case it was just to point out your apathy in allowing the government to do things unquestioned, which is undeniably your view here. If you’re so easily offended I would suggest you don’t discuss such weighty matters.
		
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You really are incredibly rude and superior. Perhaps you should pay more attention to my posts where I have questioned the government although that doesn't fit your remit to be downright obnoxious at every opportunity to anyone who has a different viewpoint to you. I may be quite old but you act like a child.


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			You really are incredibly rude and superior. Perhaps you should pay more attention to my posts where I have questioned the government although that doesn't fit your remit to be downright obnoxious at every opportunity to anyone who has a different viewpoint to you. I may be quite old but you act like a child.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone who thinks that the government’s mistakes shouldn’t be highlighted is a moron. Quite simple really. The government are here to serve us, and they’ve failed us.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I absolutely accept people have a right to criticise. But when it goes beyond criticism to the point where someone maintains they are right, and that a huge amount of job related experience counts for nothing, it really grinds my gears.

I’m a grizzled old cop I’m afraid, and when it comes to customer service in the face of criticism which is very often unwarranted, I’m afraid the sunny disposition and cheery smile was beaten out of me some time ago.

I should avoid political threads - when they start to involve my job they invariably become bad for my health and, as a direct consequence, everyone else’s.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of boll.”: 
I was having a discussion with someone else about speed cameras. ( which he dosnt want to debate after asking the very question.)
You stuck your size nines in because I said “ I havnt seen a copper around my way”
Maybe I am out of date with police procedure.
But the “cobblers “  opener from you  is not the best way to educate someone and just puts them on the front foot for an argument.
I am right there are no cops by me.
All the experience in the world for you won’t change that fact.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Anyone who thinks that the government’s mistakes shouldn’t be highlighted is a moron. Quite simple really. The government are here to serve us, and they’ve failed us.
		
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And anyone who thinks that they are the only ones who are right seem to be reverting to type.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What a load of boll.”:
I was having a discussion with someone else about speed cameras. ( which he dosnt want to debate after asking the very question.)
You stuck your size nines in because I said “ I havnt seen a copper around my way”
Maybe I am out of date with police procedure.
But the “cobblers “  opener from you  is not the best way to educate someone and just puts them on the front foot for an argument.
I am right there are no cops by me.
All the experience in the world for you won’t change that fact.
		
Click to expand...

How many times do I have to explain the discussion wasnt about speed cameras, it was about people breaking distancing rules, you turned it into cameras, I only used speeding along with other things to explain how fining people is a deterent 🙄


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And anyone who thinks that they are the only ones who are right seem to be reverting to type.
		
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If you believe the government has done a single thing wrong, surely you believe it should be looked at and questioned by the general public who are being served by the government?

I don’t get this mantra of unending faith in a clearly flawed, bent government.


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## AmandaJR (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Anyone who thinks that the government’s mistakes shouldn’t be highlighted is a moron. Quite simple really. The government are here to serve us, and they’ve failed us.
		
Click to expand...

So now I'm an apethetic, old moron.

Keep em coming...


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How many times do I have to explain the discussion wasnt about speed cameras, it was about people breaking distancing rules, you turned it into cameras, I only used speeding along with other things to explain how fining people is a deterent 🙄
		
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About the same as me telling you .
You asked a direct question which I answered .
What’s your problem with that?
If you don’t want your questions answered your going to have to say so before some one does.


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## Reemul (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Not attending the meetings early on

Not imposing lockdown earlier when it was clear it was necessary

Not having stockpiles of PPE (not specifically Boris but the tories have been in power long enough that it’s their fault)

Not actually imposing lockdown, it’s blatantly obvious a large number of people have ignored the rules

How many more do you want before you admit he’s not handled it perfectly
		
Click to expand...


I think you missed not shutting down more businesses that are not essential or closing our borders and quarantining all passengers for 14 days. 

How about not being more direct. How about giving the police the ability to fine those who break lock down with large fines.

The big issue is mixed messages from government tied in with a media who only want clicks and will say and do anything for them even if that is bad for us and the country.

Initially i was happy but I feel as it has gone on they have done poorly and are far too wishy washy.

I am sat here with my neighbours opposite having a party with 2 visitors, 1 a family of 5 with 3 kids and the other a family of 3. I would like someone to come round and fine the ******* a large amount but we know nothing will happen.

Weak on everything.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Looked extremely like a park in Hackney, the area that the police posted that they were fighting a losing battle trying to clear.  It's in the link I attached.

And yes you are making it up; because nowhere does that film footage show anyone going home; it follows no-one to their front door.  They will appear to clear up, walk a little way in the opposite direction & set up again.  If the police stop to directly deal with one family, the issuing of the tickets & paperwork will buy everyone else half an hour in the sun.  If one lot refuse details then the police either walk away or they arrest them, which takes them out of the park for the rest of the day, buying the whole park a free one.  If you want to stop that, you go down mob handed, clear the entire park in one sweep, post bodies at the entry points & have a few roving patrols inside to catch anyone that's bunked in over the fence.  I know this first hand.

If you think what you saw in that video was a park being successfully cleared then you really do not have a clue as to how this sort of thing works.
		
Click to expand...

The film-shot I saw was a van being driven in a park with a Policewoman in the passenger seat speaking through a sound system and people getting up and moving on. I have attached a link with a video showing Police moving people on in a park.
I wont be crass and suggest you dont know how these things work as I dont know you.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/25/sunb...-police-defying-coronavirus-lockdown-12452779


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2020)

It would be a shame to close this thread

But it’s heading that way


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## Reemul (May 10, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I think you missed not shutting down more businesses that are not essential or closing our borders and quarantining all passengers for 14 days.

How about not being more direct. How about giving the police the ability to fine those who break lock down with large fines.

The big issue is mixed messages from government tied in with a media who only want clicks and will say and do anything for them even if that is bad for us and the country.

Initially i was happy but I feel as it has gone on they have done poorly and are far too wishy washy.

I am sat here with my neighbours opposite having a party with 2 visitors, 1 a family of 5 with 3 kids and the other a family of 3. I would like someone to come round and fine the ******* a large amount but we know nothing will happen.

Weak on everything.
		
Click to expand...

I would like to add the Public Transport System mainly in London at the start was handled disgracefully. Be interesting to see how they handle it coming back, I hate using it at the best of times let alone in rush hour but with Covid around...


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I would like to add the Public Transport System mainly in London at the start was handled disgracefully. Be interesting to see how they handle it coming back, I hate using it at the best of times let alone in rush hour but with Covid around...
		
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I just don’t see how they can until a vaccine is found.
Or they want us back to herd immunity.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont unpaid penalties end up with going to court?
		
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Well they should do, but some doors get knocked on only a certain amount of times.
And there is a phrase " written off"😀


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## fundy (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s apathy like this which keeps poor governments in charge and a poor press not questioning them.
		
Click to expand...


not to mention a horrendous alternative at the last election


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## harpo_72 (May 10, 2020)

i am definitely a believer in give them a rope and see if they can avoid hanging themselves ... looks like the message wasn’t very clear today opening the door to the critics ... Remember bad news travels fast.


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## harpo_72 (May 10, 2020)

fundy said:



			not to mention a horrendous alternative at the last election
		
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According to the press and speculation... we don’t have any hard evidence that they would have done a poorer job. All we have is the evidence of the present regime.


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## fundy (May 10, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			According to the press and speculation... we don’t have any hard evidence that they would have done a poorer job. All we have is the evidence of the present regime.
		
Click to expand...


the election result is all the evidence you need to know how bad they were if they couldnt beat this incompetent lot in a head to head surely?


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I am right there are no cops by me.
		
Click to expand...

We are clearly going to continue to go round and round in circles, which is all rather pointless.

But I would be curious to know if you were doing your best Marty Feldman impression as you typed your last offering. Having one eye on the window and one on your screen is the only way you can tell me for certain who walked or drove by at the crucial moment.

It might just have been the local plod 😉.

Think I’ll give this discussion a miss from this point on. It’s unfair on others if it was to be closed because of our polar opposite views.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If you believe the government has done a single thing wrong, surely you believe it should be looked at and questioned by the general public who are being served by the government?

I don’t get this mantra of unending faith in a clearly flawed, bent government.
		
Click to expand...

There are extremes in how people view the Government. If we consider this as a contuuem with Fully Supporting at the start and Fully Against anything they do at the end, you would sit firmly at the end.
I guess you would consider me at the beginning 😄


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## harpo_72 (May 10, 2020)

fundy said:



			the election result is all the evidence you need to know how bad they were if they couldnt beat this incompetent lot in a head to head surely?
		
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Nah I think it’s just a measure of how well the campaign was fought .. no 1st hand evidence of government running was presented its just the usual lies


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## Foxholer (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The police don’t generally fingerprint for thefts from motor vehicles. Haven’t done for donkey’s years. You see? Something else you don’t understand and yet see fit to criticise.
...
		
Click to expand...

Well I will...Why the hell do they not?!


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

What an almighty cock-up!

The ITV News has just announced that the pictures they showed of Hackney Fields? park, supposedly being mega busy during lockdown, were actually taken a good while ago.

Pathetic one line apology.


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## fundy (May 10, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Nah I think it’s just a measure of how well the campaign was fought .. no 1st hand evidence of government running was presented its just the usual lies
		
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lol they were an utter shambles running an election campaign, infighting for fun, couldnt even work out the key areas to campaign on, but wouldve been 100% faultless dealing with a pandemic of levels weve never seen before if you believe some of the posters on here, a little balance wouldnt go amiss


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What an almighty cock-up!

The ITV News has just announced that the pictures they showed of Hackney Fields? park, supposedly being mega busy during lockdown, were actually taken a good while ago.

Pathetic one line apology.
		
Click to expand...

I've just had to listen it three times to make sure what I was hearing was correct. Pathetic.


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## Foxholer (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s apathy like this which keeps poor governments in charge and a poor press not questioning them.
		
Click to expand...

Twaddle! That's not apathy..that's realism!


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I've just had to listen it three times to make sure what I was hearing was correct. Pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

There was a post that popped up on my FB page this morning showing Bournemouth High St yesterday mid morning, along with another 20+ photos taken from there. Hardly a person in view. Just what is the reality in the UK? On the one hand you get the media saying crowds are everywhere yet... are they?

There were two photos shown yesterday of a queue. One from almost head on, and it looked like there was no social distancing. And the second from 90*, which showed full 2m distancing.


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## MegaSteve (May 10, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Nah I think it’s just a measure of how well the campaign was fought .. no 1st hand evidence of government running was presented its just the usual lies
		
Click to expand...

Being supported by the "reprehensible" press was a big help...


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## fundy (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There was a post that popped up on my FB page this morning showing Bournemouth High St yesterday mid morning, along with another 20+ photos taken from there. Hardly a person in view. Just what is the reality in the UK? On the one hand you get the media saying crowds are everywhere yet... are they?

There were two photos shown yesterday of a queue. One from almost head on, and it looked like there was no social distancing. And the second from 90*, which showed full 2m distancing.
		
Click to expand...

High st is completely deserted 5 miles down from bournemouth here, but the beaches have been getting busier (police took over 2 hours to clear Highcliffes yesterday). Probably a good thing the weather has turned and winters back tomorrow tbh

I think its actually quite mixed, some areas are quiet, some are getting busier than would be ideal


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I would like to add the Public Transport System mainly in London at the start was handled disgracefully. Be interesting to see how they handle it coming back, I hate using it at the best of times let alone in rush hour but with Covid around...
		
Click to expand...

Isn't public transport in London under the remit of the mayor so not a government decision?


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There was a post that popped up on my FB page this morning showing Bournemouth High St yesterday mid morning, along with another 20+ photos taken from there. Hardly a person in view. Just what is the reality in the UK? On the one hand you get the media saying crowds are everywhere yet... are they?

There were two photos shown yesterday of a queue. One from almost head on, and it looked like there was no social distancing. And the second from 90*, which showed full 2m distancing.
		
Click to expand...

Reality locally is there’s not many people about. Roads are relatively quiet although on friday there seemed to be more cars on the road. Ive not been to the local parks as they’re all about 1-2 miles away, but from what I’ve heard it was busy on Friday/Saturday.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2020)

So the big announcement over .. construction can restart .. other things I don't care about 

When can we see family?


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259409186095607809


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So the big announcement over .. construction can restart .. other things I don't care about

When can we see family?
		
Click to expand...

When the R rate that is currently somewhere between 0.5 and 0.9 gets below 0.6. Or 0.5. Or possibly between 0.7 and 0.3. Keep up.  But can I play golf with my wife now?


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## pendodave (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There was a post that popped up on my FB page this morning showing Bournemouth High St yesterday mid morning, along with another 20+ photos taken from there. Hardly a person in view. Just what is the reality in the UK? On the one hand you get the media saying crowds are everywhere yet... are they?

There were two photos shown yesterday of a queue. One from almost head on, and it looked like there was no social distancing. And the second from 90*, which showed full 2m distancing.
		
Click to expand...

Mainline stations still empty. Mainline trains empty. Not sure about the tube as I've avoided it.


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Starmer having a little pop at Boris for the lack of unity across the UK; might be nice if he pointed that one at Nicola.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 10, 2020)

Keir Starmer playing pathetic politics 

We want one message across the UK -  well tell Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to stop doing their own thing then.
We don't want to hear so many contrasting views - blame the media and look in the mirror then.

By all means have a different opinion but then don't blame the Government because those different views are out there.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

Johnson speaking on Engand only matters on a UK wide broadcast.
I have no problems with that provided he clearly states that he is speaking on England only matters.
He clearly did not and that for me is a problem.
That broadcast should not have been shown in Scotland without a warning.


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

And yet again we decide that the villain here is the leader of the opposition who has had literally no input or influence whatsoever to the current situation.


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## DanFST (May 10, 2020)

Didn't the Scottish first minister just announce unlimited exercise in Scotland?

So after all her noise, nothing is actually different between her and BJ's strategy as we speak?


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Don't think the message about being able to travel to other locations was overly helpful without a distance limitation; he appears to have granted permission for some of the antics we saw this weekend.


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## harpo_72 (May 10, 2020)

fundy said:



			lol they were an utter shambles running an election campaign, infighting for fun, couldnt even work out the key areas to campaign on, but wouldve been 100% faultless dealing with a pandemic of levels weve never seen before if you believe some of the posters on here, a little balance wouldnt go amiss
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think they would have handled this situation perfectly, look worldwide and no one has got 100% right. I am not sure whether there was some fact stifling from the Chinese at the beginning..but that could be cleared up later. The key is to learn and have a future strategy ... like stopping flights in and out earlier, plus more regimented quarantining .. but all of this is for later


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Don't think the message about being able to travel to other locations was overly helpful without a distance limitation; he appears to have granted permission for some of the antics we saw this weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Can we drive up to chesterfield next week for my mother in laws 90th birthday and join her in her local park observing the necessary 2m physical separation?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Keir Starmer playing pathetic politics

We want one message across the UK -  well tell Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to stop doing their own thing
We don't want to hear so many contrasting views - blame the media and look in the mirror then.

By all means have a different opinion but then don't blame the Government because those different views are out there.
		
Click to expand...

You might want to re think that with NI, Wales and Scotland telling England to stop doing their own thing.
We would only have one contrasting view then and it would make UK wide issues much easier.


----------



## harpo_72 (May 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Being supported by the "reprehensible" press was a big help...
		
Click to expand...

Yeah the Australian was pretty much leading the pack .... you see how they play cricket why would you read his papers 🤣


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2020)




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## MegaSteve (May 10, 2020)

My lad is not happy as he's having to go into the office tomorrow to receive a delivery... Now it's looking like he'll be having to compete for road space with thousands of others... Which wasn't part of the plan when made on Friday...


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## ger147 (May 10, 2020)

https://www.englandgolf.org/covid-19-update/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Didn't the Scottish witch just say announce unlimited exercise in Scotland?

So after all her noise, nothing is actually different between her and BJ's strategy as we speak?
		
Click to expand...

The Scottish witch? Really?

I suppose in a similar vein after that statement one could refer to the Prime Minister as that well known Scottish pantomime character in Aladdin - Wishee Washee (the loveable eejit in the panto)


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## funkycoldmedina (May 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			the Scottish witch
		
Click to expand...

Any real need for this?


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## Beezerk (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can we drive up to chesterfield next week for my mother in laws 90th birthday and join her in her local park observing the necessary 2m physical separation?
		
Click to expand...

I'd say yes.

Anyway, am I alone in thinking he spoke quite well?
Yes maybe some vague instructions, but surely you can't expect him to state every little detail, that will come in good time from the correct bodies.


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			She's currently giving a great interview off the back of Boris' recorded statement and seems to be bending over backwards to avoid criticising what he's doing. With the exception that she is emphasising that on everything he covered other than quarantine for incoming travellers he only speaks for England and those changes don't apply here. Which is true.
		
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And had she done that, and not gone to press before the PM's announcement, then that would have been better.

Frankly I find it ridiculous that we have the Prime Minister of the UK making announcements that are then contradicted by the First Ministers of other parts of the union.  It should either be one united front or 4 separate countries making individual announcements, not the half-arsed arrangement we currently have.  Either devolve properly or not at all.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			When the R rate that is currently somewhere between 0.5 and 0.9 gets below 0.6. Or 0.5. Or possibly between 0.7 and 0.3. Keep up.  But can I play golf with my wife now?
		
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Surely I can play golf alone .. unlimited exercise outside


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'd say yes.

Anyway, am I alone in thinking he spoke quite well?
Yes maybe some vague instructions, but surely you can't expect him to state every little detail, that will come in good time from the correct bodies.
		
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I would agree, but for some detail.  The travel for example; how difficult would it have been to say within a 25 mile radius, or whatever distance was deemed appropriate?


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## pendodave (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And had she done that, and not gone to press before the PM's announcement, then that would have been better.

Frankly I find it ridiculous that we have the Prime Minister of the UK making announcements that are then contradicted by the First Ministers of other parts of the union.  It should either be one united front or 4 separate countries making individual announcements, not the half-arsed arrangement we currently have.  Either devolve properly or not at all.
		
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Surely the best thing would have been for him to brief the Scottish and Welsh leaders before the daily mail...


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## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can we drive up to chesterfield next week for my mother in laws 90th birthday and join her in her local park observing the necessary 2m physical separation?
		
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How far does she live from the local Park, within walking distance?😉


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## Beezerk (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			And, of course, he failed to mention that his changes only apply in England.
		
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Haven't the Scots been striving to be able to make their own political decisions for years? 🤣


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## Pathetic Shark (May 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You might want to re think that with NI, Wales and Scotland telling England to stop doing their own thing.
We would only have one contrasting view then and it would make UK wide issues much easier.
		
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OK - Boris Johnson is Prime Minister of *THE UNITED KINGDOM*.  So how about the other three areas stop doing their own thing?


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Surely I can play golf alone .. unlimited exercise outside
		
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Knock yourself out mate.  Well not literally as that may put excess pressure on the NHS.


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## DanFST (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I would seem you haven't heard (or understood) what they were saying then. And your usage of "witch" is pure sexism, please stop that.
		
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It's not sexism at all, don't play that card, it lessens actual sexism when it occurs. I strongly disliked her when I lived in Edinburgh and I strongly dislike her now.

Can you explain the differences between Scotland and English plans next week, as I clearly don't understand?


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Surely the best thing would have been for him to brief the Scottish and Welsh leaders before the daily mail...
		
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Maybe if they weren't making their announcements before him he might?


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## DanFST (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Scottish witch? Really?

I suppose in a similar vein after that statement one could refer to the Prime Minister as that well known Scottish pantomime character in Aladdin - Wishee Washee.
		
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I like that!


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Haven't the Scots been striving to be able to make their own political decisions for years? 🤣
		
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Apparently not according to the last referendum on the subject.


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## ger147 (May 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It's not sexism at all, don't play that card, it lessens actual sexism when it occurs. I strongly disliked her when I lived in Edinburgh and I strongly dislike her now.

Can you explain the differences between Scotland and English plans next week, as I clearly don't understand?
		
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Scotland are not encouraging anyone to go back to work, you can't sit around and sunbathe etc. in the park, you can't drive to another destination to spend time outdoors and you can't play sports. All these things will be allowed in England but still not allowed in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Knock yourself out mate.  Well not literally as that may put excess pressure on the NHS.
		
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If any of this isn't true then stop "reporting it"


----------



## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'd say yes.

Anyway, am I alone in thinking he spoke quite well?
Yes maybe some vague instructions, but surely you can't expect him to state every little detail, that will come in good time from the correct bodies.
		
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Yes, exactly. Anyone confused by what he said is being obtuse. 
He cannot, as you say, state every little detail and he did say there would be more detail in HoC tomorrow.


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## pendodave (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe if they weren't making their announcements before him he might? 

Click to expand...

Seriously??? The announcements were in the press before sturgeon kicked off.
She also said (which noone has denied, so I think we can assume it to be true) that there had been no consultation. 
There's a long list of things I don't like about the way Sturgeon operates, but this is poor by Johnson imho.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2020)

I'm assuming he is stating the road map for the UK as a whole. If the devolved govts want to deviate from that map within their remit they can.


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## Mudball (May 10, 2020)

. Not sure if this is here or the Laughter thread...


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I would seem you haven't heard (or understood) what they were saying then. And your usage of "witch" is pure sexism, please stop that.
		
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Agree it’s not a term I want to see on here
Please stop 👍


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Seriously??? The announcements were in the press before sturgeon kicked off.
She also said (which noone has denied, so I think we can assume it to be true) that there had been no consultation.
There's a long list of things I don't like about the way Sturgeon operates, but this is poor by Johnson imho.
		
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Well if he is only speaking for England what does it matter if he doesn't consult with them?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I would agree, but for some detail.  The travel for example; how difficult would it have been to say within a 25 mile radius, or whatever distance was deemed appropriate?
		
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Does sound like it’s fine for us to be driving the 170miles or so to my M-I-Ls next week to see her on her 90th birthday - then pop 25miles up the road to Sheffield to see our son.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How far does she live from the local Park, within walking distance?😉
		
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Quarter of a mile. 170miles to get there first of all though.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

I found what he said was often contradictory, vague and liable to promote people having to make their own minds up on what they can or should do and when.  They will no doubt clarify things tomorrow or maybe confuse them more, surely it would have been better to say we will stay as we are and bring in new rules from a week tomorrow.   
I really dont understand how people can make their own minds up whether to go to work in the morning or whether safety precautions will be in place, surely it's up to Employeers to notify their employees first.

Not impressed at all.


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## 3offTheTee (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does sound like it’s fine for us to be driving the 170miles or so to my M-I-Ls next week to see her on her 90th birthday - then pop 25miles up the road to Sheffield to see our son.
		
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Surely he would make the 25 mile effort to see his family for such a special occasion.

Hope you are able to travel, have a great day, and wish her happy 90th.


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## Fade and Die (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I would seem you haven't heard (or understood) what they were saying then. And your usage of "witch" is pure sexism, please stop that.
		
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It’s not Sexism (or racism btw) it’s a pure and simple insult. Stop that now.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does sound like it’s fine for us to be driving the 170miles or so to my M-I-Ls next week to see her on her 90th birthday - then pop 25miles up the road to Sheffield to see our son.
		
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Did he not say for exercise? Ultimately it is down to you and your conscience. If the police stop you on the motorway do you think your case will stand up or will they see it as a major bending of the rules?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I found what he said was often contradictory, vague and liable to promote people having to make their own minds up on what they can or should do and when.  They will no doubt clarify things tomorrow or maybe confuse them more, surely it would have been better to say we will stay as we are and bring in new rules from a week tomorrow.
I really dont understand how people can make their own minds up whether to go to work in the morning or whether safety precautions will be in place, surely it's up to Employeers to notify their employees first.

Not impressed at all.
		
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100% agree - my Mrs has just muttered that that was utterly hopeless and very confusing - the main thing she got from it was that he might just as well have said ‘if you want to go out and catch the virus - well on you go - fill your boots...’


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## HomerJSimpson (May 10, 2020)

I think it's important to see exactly what Boris says in the HoC tomorrow and then what questions he gets asked and how he responds. I agree he couldn't go into infinite details tonight but do think he'll make it far clearer tomorrow. I am nervous about the publics response to the new message being put out and we're still making provisions at work for a secondary spike.


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It'd be better and clearer all round if we all moved at the same rate. But they need to talk to each other to make the agreements that would allow that.
		
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Playing Devil's Advocate a little bit here......

If the infection rate in Scotland was above 1 but in England was 0.4 does that mean that you think that 60 million (ish) people in England should remain under stricter rules because of the infection rate in a population of 6 million (ish) people in Scotland?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Surely he would make the 25 mile effort to see his family for such a special occasion.

Hope you are able to travel, have a great day, and wish her happy 90th.
		
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He will pop down.  Though it sounds like if we wanted to go up separately to see him in Sheffield then we could. I don’t think it’s a good idea for us to travel such distance so I actually suspect that we won’t go next week. My son will pop down on the day but we won’t go up.


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## IanM (May 10, 2020)

I'm in Wales. 

Golf is dangerous.  Walking on a beach on my own is dangerous.

But I can queue with lots of septegenarians in the garden centre to buy a flower pot and a bag of dirt.

Opposition wanted road map.  They have it.  Crystal clear that progression depends on outcomes and can be reversed.  Still not happy.   

Welsh Golf FB pages in meltdown at the mo.  Bristol Golf Clubs could be getting lots of new members


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And had she done that, and not gone to press before the PM's announcement, then that would have been better.

Frankly I find it ridiculous that we have the Prime Minister of the UK making announcements that are then contradicted by the First Ministers of other parts of the union.  It should either be one united front or 4 separate countries making individual announcements, not the half-arsed arrangement we currently have.  Either devolve properly or not at all.
		
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In fairness, if the leaders of the other 3 countries disagree with Johnson's plans surely they have a right,as leaders of that country, to make their own decisions based on what they feel is the right course of action?


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Agree it’s not a term I want to see on here
Please stop 👍
		
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You've let worse go on a regular basis.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2020)

I can't believe no one has mentioned the standout feature of the speech, Boris had brushed his hair 😳😳😳. That is the first time in his adult life! I found it quite distracting 😁


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## NWJocko (May 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Playing Devil's Advocate a little bit here......

If the infection rate in Scotland was above 1 but in England was 0.4 does that mean that you think that 60 million (ish) people in England should remain under stricter rules because of the infection rate in a population of 6 million (ish) people in Scotland?
		
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Rather than going down different paths etc my understanding (which may be wrong!) is that all areas of the UK will be following the same criteria to move between the 5 states of alert at different times depending on the R value in each?

therefore if England (or even at County/Regional level) goes back to 5 the the message would revert to Stay Home etc, not that anyone wants that to happen of course.

However, I wish this had come through loud and clear in his address though, it was very poor and he missed the opportunity to nip these “why England” etc conversations and questions in the bud.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

To be honest, I think the PM and the devolved First Ministers are wrong to use quick broadcasts to push changes to the lockdown. Spain's version of unlock was announced last week with a "we will be reducing restrictions as of next Monday. The detail will be issued over the next few days." 30 pages of detail. Following that, a number of clarifications requested by the regional presidents, and amendments issued. There's still a few pending and it goes live at midnight tonight.

A 30 min briefing on TV isn't the way to do it.


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Playing Devil's Advocate a little bit here......

If the infection rate in Scotland was above 1 but in England was 0.4 does that mean that you think that 60 million (ish) people in England should remain under stricter rules because of the infection rate in a population of 6 million (ish) people in Scotland?
		
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Kaz said:



			I'm no expert but it seems reasonable to think if there was such a large disparity in the infection rate then theoretically not, but it would still be better to present a united front with both leaders making the same points and explaining why the differences.
		
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I'd agree that if there is huge disparity in the rates, and given the differing demographics of the countries, different rules could apply, but as we are still a United Kingdom, with a Prime Minister for the United Kingdom, the arrangements should be discussed between them & then announced by the Prime Minister, with First Ministers taking questions & filling detail on any variations in their respective countries.


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## User20205 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I found what he said was often contradictory, vague and liable to promote people having to make their own minds up on what they can or should do and when.  They will no doubt clarify things tomorrow or maybe confuse them more, surely it would have been better to say we will stay as we are and bring in new rules from a week tomorrow.  
I really dont understand how people can make their own minds up whether to go to work in the morning or whether safety precautions will be in place, surely it's up to Employeers to notify their employees first.

Not impressed at all.
		
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Agreed. I don’t want to get into Tory bashing, but the whole lockdown has been a shambles from a direction standpoint. I’ve been advocating it being lifted, admittedly from a purely personal situation. That’s the issue, it allows too much room for interpretation. We would have been better having stronger guidance/leadership


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			In fairness, if the leaders of the other 3 countries disagree with Johnson's plans surely they have a right,as leaders of that country, to make their own decisions based on what they feel is the right course of action?
		
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I didn't say they didn't have that right, I have an issue with them "rushing to print" before the Prime Minister has announced what they are disagreeing with.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			You've let worse go on a regular basis.
		
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If you see something you don’t like, please report it 
Rather than an attempt at point scoring 👍


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## Foxholer (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm no expert....
		
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The only words needed!


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## User20205 (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I didn't say they didn't have that right, I have an issue with them "rushing to print" before the Prime Minister has announced what they are disagreeing with.
		
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Seems odd to me that; there wasn’t communication between the respective leaders prior to the announcements & Boris didn’t speak first. It would have made more sense for Wales & Scotland to follow with any regional amendments imo


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			If you see something you don’t like, please report it 
Rather than an attempt at point scoring 👍
		
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I'll leave that for the offended ones, no point scoring either more of a fair observation👍


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## User20205 (May 10, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			The only words needed!
		
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Never stops you pal


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I didn't say they didn't have that right, I have an issue with them "rushing to print" before the Prime Minister has announced what they are disagreeing with.
		
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So you suggest they wait and respond?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did he not say for exercise? Ultimately it is down to you and your conscience. If the police stop you on the motorway do you think your case will stand up or will they see it as a major bending of the rules?
		
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So we on here are understanding some what should be simple things in the statement differently.  3offtheTee thinks I could go, you don’t - I don’t think I should be able to go - but the PM said I could go to the park and sit on a park bench.  Do I have to walk to the park to sit on the bench or can I drive as I can if I am to exercise - and if the park I want to go to to sit on a park bench is 170miles away?

Stern tone; Stern face; Clench fists; Wave hands. Confuse.


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## PaulS (May 10, 2020)

Reckon it’s great that a worldwide crisis has brought the United Kingdom together as one as we battle through it all.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If you believe the government has done a single thing wrong, surely you believe it should be looked at and questioned by the general public who are being served by the government?

I don’t get this mantra of unending faith in a clearly flawed, bent government.
		
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Yep a golf forum will really take the government to account. If your going to do something real, tell us about it.


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## Kellfire (May 10, 2020)

Defend that. Embarrassing.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So we on here are understanding some what should be simple things in the statement differently.  3offtheTee thinks I could go, you don’t - I don’t think I should be able to go - but the PM said I could go to the park and sit on a park bench.  Do I have to walk to the park to sit on the bench or can I drive as I can if I am to exercise - and if the park I want to go to to sit on a park bench is 170miles away?

Stern tone; Stern face; Clench fists; Wave hands. Confuse.
		
Click to expand...

I've not seen all the detail but where would it stand against what was an essential journey?


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## banjofred (May 10, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Reckon it’s great that a worldwide crisis has brought the United Kingdom together as one as we battle through it all.
		
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I think I might use this cartoon a lot on this site....


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## huds1475 (May 10, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			it’s not about you being able to understand it it’s about the other bellends who haven’t listened to the current advice let alone being told they have more freedom than they thought they did before
		
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Its simple advice.

The majority of the country will understand it.

It's the government's job to look after the country, not each individual. 

As an individual, you (or I) are asked to read the advice and act on it.

I don't see it anywhere saying "Stay home as much as possible. And whilst you're at it, whine about what other people might/might not do".


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## Foxholer (May 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What about those of us that arnt die hard Torys and are sensible enough to realise that's what we have and where appropriate have to get on and deal with it.
		
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H'mm! Isn't that the epitome of 'conservative'? Note the small 'c'!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So we on here are understanding some what should be simple things in the statement differently.  3offtheTee thinks I could go, you don’t - I don’t think I should be able to go - but the PM said I could go to the park and sit on a park bench.  Do I have to walk to the park to sit on the bench or can I drive as I can if I am to exercise - and if the park I want to go to to sit on a park bench is 170miles away?

Stern tone; Stern face; Clench fists; Wave hands. Confuse.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, you know the answer, you have suggested as much. We all really know how the rules or guidelines work, people just look to bend them to suit. If you are stretching something to the nth degree then you know that your interpretation of the rules is questionable. (Please do not take my use of you or your as being directed at you. I am using it in general terms 👍)


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2020)




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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			So you suggest they wait and respond?
		
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Yes.


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## huds1475 (May 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			(Please do not take my use of you or your as being directed at you. I am using it in general terms 👍)
		
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I thought they were his preferred pronouns!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair, you know the answer, you have suggested as much. We all really know how the rules or guidelines work, people just look to bend them to suit. If you are stretching something to the nth degree then you know that your interpretation of the rules is questionable. (Please do not take my use of you or your as being directed at you. I am using it in general terms 👍)
		
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The problem is people are and will definitely from this week, bend the rules as much as possible. In the case SILH gives I wouldn't class a 170 mile trip (assume that's 340 miles in both directions) as essential even for a 90th birthday and if the police were to stop him  for any reason I would suggest they wouldn't see it as such. Not a pick at SILH and I am certain there are far worse examples out there. The issue as I see it in a very simple basis is the more interaction we have, even at work with PPE or government advice followed (or not) then the R number is going to rise as is happening in Germany and we're either back to a lockdown similar to the one we have (or more severe even) and more hospital admissions and deaths increasing


----------



## User62651 (May 10, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			OK - Boris Johnson is Prime Minister of *THE UNITED KINGDOM*.  So how about the other three areas stop doing their own thing?
		
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Health is a devolved matter to 3 of the UK nations but the 4th England doesn't have devolution from UK so is left feeling a bit aggrieved, I get that. 

If it was a defence matter for example which isn't devolved there would be a UK only response.

Devolution (but not for England) is a problem created by New Labour in the 90s and for parity I think England should have devolution too via 3 or 4 regional govt assemblies with devolved powers and therefore reduce UK parliament size  and MP numbers right back to only deal with whole UK issues. Federalism.

No way Scotland, Wales, NI are giving up devolved powers without a fight, that ship has sailed, but yes England are not treated fairly in this arrangement at present.


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Yes.
		
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I think you're splitting hairs there. Imo it shouldve been right we propose x,y and z  then they voted on the course of  Action and ran with it as a whole nation.

This course of action will just divide us.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does sound like it’s fine for us to be driving the 170miles or so to my M-I-Ls next week to see her on her 90th birthday - then pop 25miles up the road to Sheffield to see our son.
		
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And return the same day, enjoy your trip.


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## rosecott (May 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



View attachment 30583

Click to expand...

Susanna Reid and Robert Peston in complete agreement - no further discussion.


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## rosecott (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I think you're splitting hairs there. Imo it shouldve been right we propose x,y and z  then they voted on the course of  Action and ran with it as a whole nation.

This course of action will just divide us.
		
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Are you suggesting a referendum?


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! Isn't that the epitome of 'conservative'? Note the small 'c'!
		
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Depends whether small c conservatives are thought of the same way by those that think Tory stands for right wing extremists.


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Are you suggesting a referendum?
		
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No, this isn’t the time for party politics. Instead unity is strength. Stick together and fight it as one.

Or maybe this is what the conservatives want, using their usual divide and conquer tactics 🤷‍♂️


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2020)




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## ScienceBoy (May 10, 2020)

It saddens me that the media and the whole of parliament could not come together at this time for the benefit of the country.


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2020)




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## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quarter of a mile. 170miles to get there first of all though.
		
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And will she be walking to the park? To then sit with you observing the SD.
Then walk home?
Same with your son. .?
It is together ( within 2 m) for only household members still.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			100% agree - my Mrs has just muttered that that was utterly hopeless and very confusing - the main thing she got from it was that he might just as well have said ‘if you want to go out and catch the virus - well on you go - fill your boots...’
		
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Well that is ridiculous, really. Next he will be accused of not treating people as adults.
If your work can be achieved honouring SD then you can go. Liaison with employer and make agreement. If a self employed one man band, then weigh up the pros and cons and decide.
If you don't want to go, then stay as you are
I know how I will ensure my SD and what I can do to maintain it.
You have considered doing the same re your mum and son, and but for distance of drive you would have gone to see them, using your common sense to maintain SD.?
Where has he made such a big error?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 10, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			It saddens me that the media and the whole of parliament could not come together at this time for the benefit of the country.
		
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As long as there are points to be scored they never will 😞


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## PaulS (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well that is ridiculous, really. Next he will be accused of not treating people as adults.
If your work can be achieved honouring SD then you can go. Liaison with employer and make agreement. If a self employed one man band, then weigh up the pros and cons and decide.
If you don't want to go, then stay as you are
Seems simple enough to me
		
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I reckon you must be in a very small minority who see the message put out tonight as simple enough 

It was a complete mess and embarrassing- zero clear direction with so many open questions. It’s just another symbol of the weak leadership we have seen in the UK from our government


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## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

PaulS said:



			I reckon you must be in a very small minority who see the message put out tonight as simple enough

It was a complete mess and embarrassing- zero clear direction with so many open questions. It’s just another symbol of the weak leadership we have seen in the UK from our government
		
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So what are you confused about exactly. What is it that you are not sure what you are being advised to do or not do.
Don't just say it's embarrassing etc, say why.
Bearing in mind details are to follow in HoC.


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I think you're splitting hairs there. Imo it shouldve been right we propose x,y and z  then they voted on the course of  Action and ran with it as a *whole nation.*

This course of action will just divide us.
		
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If we are a whole nation Stu, then the political leader of the whole nation, the United Kingdom, makes the announcement.   Then any changes from that are announced by the political leaders of the countries who are moving away from the advice that the whole nation is otherwise following.   Anything else is the tail wagging the dog for me, and the actions of any other leaders in pre-empting his announcement are the actions I find divisive..

It would be nice if, given the circumstances, they could all act like grown ups and play nicely, but unfortunately it appears that they can't, or won't, for reasons that we can only speculate on.


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## rosecott (May 10, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			So now I'm an apethetic, old moron.

Keep em coming...
		
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Don't lose sight of the fact that you started this thread.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			So what are you confused about exactly. What is it that you are not sure what you are being advised to do or not do.
Don't just say it's embarrassing etc, say why.
Bearing in mind details are to follow in HoC.
		
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Who should get up tomorrow morning and go to work, bearing in mind Boris said they are talking to employeers on safe working practices, does this mean these practices are not agreed so not in place. Starmer is correct that giving people 12 hours notice is ridiculous. If someone thinks it's not safe to go in or cant use public transport does it mean their Furlough payments will be withdrawn.  
It takes a lot for me to lose support for the government but what happened today is embarrassing and amatuerish.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've not seen all the detail but where would it stand against what was an essential journey?
		
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I saw it as you can use your car to drive to a place to take exercise.


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who should get up tomorrow morning and go to work, bearing in mind Boris said they are talking to employeers on safe working practices, does this mean these practices are not agreed so not in place. Starmer is correct that giving people 12 hours notice is ridiculous. If someone thinks it's not safe to go in or cant use public transport does it mean their Furlough payments will be withdrawn. 
It takes a lot for me to lose support for the government but what happened today is embarrassing and amatuerish.
		
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Also, are the children of those people being "encouraged" to go back to work now considered to be the children of key workers and as a result they can return to schools?

And if an employee is now being "encouraged" to return to work what are their employment rights if they decide that they don't think that it is safe to do so?


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			We are clearly going to continue to go round and round in circles, which is all rather pointless.

But I would be curious to know if you were doing your best Marty Feldman impression as you typed your last offering. Having one eye on the window and one on your screen is the only way you can tell me for certain who walked or drove by at the crucial moment.

It might just have been the local plod 😉.

Think I’ll give this discussion a miss from this point on. It’s unfair on others if it was to be closed because of our polar opposite views.
		
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Fair enough!
But couldn’t resist Having a last little dig could you.
It was a dog walker for your curiosity.


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## huds1475 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who should get up tomorrow morning and go to work, bearing in mind Boris said they are talking to employeers on safe working practices, does this mean these practices are not agreed so not in place. Starmer is correct that giving people 12 hours notice is ridiculous. If someone thinks it's not safe to go in or cant use public transport does it mean their Furlough payments will be withdrawn.  
It takes a lot for me to lose support for the government but what happened today is embarrassing and amatuerish.
		
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He's opened the door for people to go back to work, if they can't work from home, where safe.

Employers will be able to have conversations about such from tomorrow.

He hasn't ordered people back to work, first thing in the morning, irrespective of conversing with their employer.

Starmer saying as much was pathetic, repeating it even more so.


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Also, are the children of those people being "encouraged" to go back to work now considered to be the children of key workers and as a result they can return to schools?

And if an employee is now being "encouraged" to return to work what are their employment rights if they decide that they don't think that it is safe to do so?
		
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It seems to be most low paid and low skilled workers are being pushed back to work, leaving it in the employers hands to sort out. Most employers only care  about the money. H&S is an  issue when it suits.

I've worked on many a building sites over the years and it's almost impossible to work 2mtrs apart. At times you're working on floors in rooms as other tradesmen.


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If we are a whole nation Stu, then the political leader of the whole nation, the United Kingdom, makes the announcement.   Then any changes from that are announced by the political leaders of the countries who are moving away from the advice that the whole nation is otherwise following.   Anything else is the tail wagging the dog for me, and the actions of any other leaders in pre-empting his announcement are the actions I find divisive..

It would be nice if, given the circumstances, they could all act like grown ups and play nicely, but unfortunately it appears that they can't, or won't, for reasons that we can only speculate on.
		
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Well Ms Sturgeon was very clear as to why the stay at home message isnt changing. 

As opposed to the bumbling fool who wasted 20mins  to basically say we'll tell you tomorrow. All well and good encouraging people back to work  but its got to be safe for everyone involved, not the few. 

We'll have to take a half on this I think 👍


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's a textbook sexist term of abuse.
		
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I agree in the context it was used.
But if I called Boris a Wizard is that?


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## DanFST (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who should get up tomorrow morning and go to work, bearing in mind Boris said they are talking to employeers on safe working practices, does this mean these practices are not agreed so not in place. Starmer is correct that giving people 12 hours notice is ridiculous. If someone thinks it's not safe to go in or cant use public transport does it mean their Furlough payments will be withdrawn. 
It takes a lot for me to lose support for the government but what happened today is embarrassing and amatuerish.
		
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"To ensure you are safe at work we have been working to establish new guidance for employers to make workplaces Covid-secure" - Do you think those in charge will have had time to implement the guidance over night?

No one says you should get up and go to work tomorrow? Unless your employer has emailed you already, It's their call, not the government. If they haven't implemented the protocols, they should be named and shamed. Remember people have been working since the beginning of all this.


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## Stuart_C (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I agree in the context it was used.
But if I called Boris a Wizard is that?
		
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Dont be stupid. Only insults made by a Male  to a female is sexist.


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## User62651 (May 11, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If we are a whole nation Stu, then the political leader of the whole nation, the United Kingdom, makes the announcement.   Then any changes from that are announced by the political leaders of the countries who are moving away from the advice that the whole nation is otherwise following.   Anything else is the tail wagging the dog for me, and the actions of any other leaders in pre-empting his announcement are the actions I find divisive..

It would be nice if, given the circumstances, they could all act like grown ups and play nicely, but unfortunately it appears that they can't, or won't, for reasons that we can only speculate on.
		
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If it was just 1 of the 3 smaller nations rejecting No10 ;then you could have a point about mischief making but when all 3 reject it, each with separate CMOs and independent scientific advisors, then that looks based solely on health judgement. BJ didn't consult in advance with other nations, lied about that.
Health is a devolved issue, why is that hard to grasp, so each nation can do what it sees fit, Boris is the one making the changes for England, not the 3 devolved govts, they have stuck firmly to No 10s original lockdown rules for the past 7 weeks, no boat rocked there, and wish to stick with that stay home message for longer. Lives are at stake and leaders carry that heavy burden, use of the word catastrophic would not be said lightly. 
It is confusing people, perhaps some clarity will come tomorrow in Commons which begs the question why not wait until Monday to do the TV message, once MPs had asked PM some questions first? Boris ignoring parliament again?


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			"To ensure you are safe at work we have been working to establish new guidance for employers to make workplaces Covid-secure" - Do you think those in charge will have had time to implement the guidance over night?

No one says you should get up and go to work tomorrow? Unless your employer has emailed you already, It's their call, not the government. If they haven't implemented the protocols, they should be named and shamed. Remember people have been working since the beginning of all this.
		
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"Boris Johnson has said people who cannot work from home, such as those in construction or manufacturing, should be “actively encouraged” to return to work from Monday"

Do you not find that statement vague, we are talking about 12 hours notice and before the details of it have been released.  What do you fail to understand about actively encouraged to return to work from Monday.


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



Boris Johnson has said people who cannot work from home, such as those in construction or manufacturing, should be “actively encouraged” to return to work from Monday.

Click to expand...


That in no way means that anyone should go in tomorrow morning. Not sure how that's confusing.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Dont be stupid. Only insults made by a Male  to a female is sexist.
		
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After today the naming Boris as a wizard is a very long way off!


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Also, are the children of those people being "encouraged" to go back to work now considered to be the children of key workers and as a result they can return to schools?

And if an employee is now being "encouraged" to return to work what are their employment rights if they decide that they don't think that it is safe to do so?
		
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Another question that needs answering is with regards to primary schools re-opening. If they are initially planning to reopen with Year 1 & Year 6 children, what happens if a Year 1 child hurts themselves in school? I'm not talking about a serious injury that requires medical attention, but if a 6 year old falls and hurts themselves and is in tears. How is it possible for a teacher to comfort that child while maintaining social distancing?


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

I think sending the very youngest children back to school in June could be a big mistake.
Their favourite pastime is licking each other’s faces , according to my daughter their teacher.
They could bring anything home!


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Another question that needs answering is with regards to primary schools re-opening. If they are initially planning to reopen with Year 1 & Year 6 children, what happens if a Year 1 child hurts themselves in school? I'm not talking about a serious injury that requires medical attention, but if a 6 year old falls and hurts themselves and is in tears. How is it possible for a teacher to comfort that child while maintaining social distancing?
		
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They can’t.
Just from what I have seen on my wife’s phone teachers are not happy.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That in no way means that anyone should go in tomorrow morning. Not sure how that's confusing.
		
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How can anyone be actively encouraged to return to work the following morning. Surely you can see that's unreasonable, nothing should have been activated for at least a week to give time for preparations. Some people could lose furlough payments if they refuse to return at short notice., there is absolutely no way all employers have been informed of suitable health and safety requirements and had time to enact them.


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How can anyone be actively encouraged to return to work the following morning. Surely you can see that's unreasonable, nothing should have been activated for at least a week to give time for preparations. Some people could lose furlough payments if they refuse to return at short notice., there is absolutely no way all employers have been informed of suitable health and safety requirements and had time to enact them.
		
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They are being actively encouraged to work *from* monday. The rest of your post is spot on, which is why its *from *monday. 

Any companies that haven't performed the required H&S and called people in should be named and shamed. And should be legally and financially destroyed if the worst was to happen.

(this is all conjuncture, I haven't seen any emails yet on the twitter-sphere from employers calling in staff Monday morning, as you would expect)


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			They can’t.
Just from what I have seen on my wife’s phone teachers are not happy.
		
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It doesn't affect me directly, despite the suggestion that Year 6 children will be returning to school (older Colch Jnr is in Year 6 but won't be returning anyway due to Mrs Colch being in an at risk group), but I fully support anyone that says that this isn't a safe thing to do. Taking it to the next level, what happens if a child hurts themselves in school and does require more advanced medical attention than the school is able to provide? Are the teachers expected to step back and not give any support/comfort to the child until an doctor or ambulance arrives? Or to leave the child alone and in pain while they don whatever PPE is deemed appropriate for the situation?


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I agree in the context it was used.
But if I called Boris a Wizard is that?
		
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Aw c’mon, you know calling a woman a witch is an insult. And you know if you called a man a wizard he’d look at you like you were daft in the head.


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## Beezerk (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That in no way means that anyone should go in tomorrow morning. Not sure how that's confusing.
		
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It's people just arguing the toss for the sake of it, trying to pick holes in fresh air.
He could have said today "and all Mancunians get 1 million pounds as a bonus" and some gimp on Facebook would moan about having to be taxed on it.
Apologies if any Mancunians were insulted by this post 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The problem is people are and will definitely from this week, bend the rules as much as possible. In the case SILH gives I wouldn't class a 170 mile trip (assume that's 340 miles in both directions) as essential even for a 90th birthday and if the police were to stop him  for any reason I would suggest they wouldn't see it as such. Not a pick at SILH and I am certain there are far worse examples out there. The issue as I see it in a very simple basis is the more interaction we have, even at work with PPE or government advice followed (or not) then the R number is going to rise as is happening in Germany and we're either back to a lockdown similar to the one we have (or more severe even) and more hospital admissions and deaths increasing
		
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I missed him saying ’essential’.  I heard him say I could sit in a park and I could drive to get there to exercise.  We won’t be going to my MiLs as we don’t think we should go - despite that we’re so disappointed that we can‘t and despite the PMs statement - which we found a bit confusing and with mixed messages.


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## harpo_72 (May 11, 2020)

There was no way he was going to get in to details in 13 minutes. The 50 page document is key. The employer owes it to the employees regards the capability to distance, so wouldn’t be surprised if there had been some contact already. The other thing is the children at home, who will be looking after them? On occasion both parents work. 
Anyway let’s see what the 50pages say. Not get too excited until they have been read.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

If the 50page document is done and dusted and to be covered in the hoc then fine - but what then was the point of the 13minutes when it could only leave lots of questions unanswered - unless it was a cunning ploy to see how we reacted then adjust the 50pages of detail accordingly. A pity is that some will choose to take the PM to his 13min words, or not be bothered to listen to statements of clarification made in the Commons.


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## harpo_72 (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the 50page document is done and dusted and to be covered in the hoc - but what then was the point of the 13minutes when it could only leave lots of questions unanswered - unless it was a cunning ploy to see how we reacted then adjust the 50pages of detail accordingly. A pity is that some will choose to take the PM to his 13min words, or not be bothered to listen to statements of clarification made in the Commons.
		
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Indeed, it was possibly an error in strategy.


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## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			It doesn't affect me directly, despite the suggestion that Year 6 children will be returning to school (older Colch Jnr is in Year 6 but won't be returning anyway due to Mrs Colch being in an at risk group), but I fully support anyone that says that this isn't a safe thing to do. Taking it to the next level, what happens if a child hurts themselves in school and does require more advanced medical attention than the school is able to provide? Are the teachers expected to step back and not give any support/comfort to the child until an doctor or ambulance arrives? Or to leave the child alone and in pain while they don whatever PPE is deemed appropriate for the situation?
		
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They will use their common sense and will not leave a child there in distress. Maintaining social distancing will be extremely difficult to maintain in a primary setting and I suspect the government know that.


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## PaulS (May 11, 2020)




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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I missed him saying ’essential’.  I heard him say I could sit in a park and I could drive to get there to exercise.  We won’t be going to my MiLs as we don’t think we should go - despite that we’re so disappointed that we can‘t and despite the PMs statement - which we found a bit confusing and with mixed messages.
		
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Incidentally I heard someone talk last night after the speech and they stated that the advice to the elderly and vulnerable remains the same. At the age mentioned your MiL should still be 'shielded' and so any contact is still to be avoided where possible. I appreciate it is very difficult, I'm guessing she is on her own and that is tough for her, but that should seal the decision if there is still any doubt.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

The PM made an error in assuming the adults would be listening.

It was a BRIEFING! The details always follow in a report.

The thrust was obvious that as long as social distancing can be maintained that will be OK, where not protective measures must be in place. If the R rate continues to fall then we move on to the next step. If not then we take a step back.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			OK - Boris Johnson is Prime Minister of *THE UNITED KINGDOM*.  So how about the other three areas stop doing their own thing?
		
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As I said England has decided to go it alone so he is not speaking on behalf of a United Kingdom any more...England only matters.
How about the odd one out stops doing their own thing.


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## Stuart_C (May 11, 2020)

Govt have always maintained that all decisions will be made on the back of the best advice possible.

If he thinks the scientific advice warrants relaxing of the rules then it should be freely available and I'd like to read it.

Can anyone point me in the right direction of said  info.


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## rudebhoy (May 11, 2020)

Can't understand the logic in Reception and Year 1 kids going back first. They are the hardest age groups to get to practice social distancing and also will have plenty time to catch up. It should just have been Year 6 as they need to be made ready for the transition to high school.

Also, if 3 year groups out of 7 are going to go back at the same time, schools will just not have enough room to distance unless they are going back on a part time basis only.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I said England has decided to go it alone so he is not speaking on behalf of a United Kingdom any more...England only matters.
How about the odd one out stops doing their own thing.
		
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I can't see what all the fuss is about. Providing they're broadly the same, crack on. Spain is doing it differently from France and Portugal.


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## rosecott (May 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I said England has decided to go it alone so he is not speaking on behalf of a United Kingdom any more...England only matters.
How about the odd one out stops doing their own thing.
		
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The other 3 would have been perfectly aware that the PM intended to make a major announcement on Sunday. Rather than wait for that, they chose not to wait and see what the announcement was, and elected to go their own way.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 11, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The other 3 would have been perfectly aware that the PM intended to make a major announcement on Sunday. Rather than wait for that, they chose not to wait and see what the announcement was, and elected to go their own way.
		
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But of course this is Boris Johnson's fault that the other three, well one in particular, are playing political games for their own personal agendas.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The other 3 would have been perfectly aware that the PM intended to make a major announcement on Sunday. Rather than wait for that, they chose not to wait and see what the announcement was, and elected to go their own way.
		
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They did not go their own way, three out of four components of the United Kingdom were united against any change from 'stay at home'.

Army march past.
Proud Mum.
'Oh look they are all out of step except my Basil'.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			But of course this is Boris Johnson's fault that the other three, well one in particular, are playing political games for their own personal agendas.
		
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Utter nonsense, they are trying very hard to keep their citizens safe from CV.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 11, 2020)

Whilst totally trying to pre-empt the UK Government and push their own personal agendas.    You have your opinion.  I have mine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Some clarifications from Raab this morning on Today.  Going back to work from 'today' if possible meant Wednesday - no mention from Raab about doing anything in respect of working from today; and he advised that I can sit in the park with my wife, and we can meet with my daughter _and _her boyfriend as long as we keep social distancing.  That guidance does raise further questions though - given that individuals from different households can meet up could we four 'get together' in our back garden rather than the park; and could we meet up with them plus my daughter's b/fs parents in the same way?  Guess we'll hear about that today...


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## rudebhoy (May 11, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			But of course this is Boris Johnson's fault that the other three, well one in particular, are playing political games for their own personal agendas.
		
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That really is the most ridiculous post I've seen on here. You may not agree with what the devolved governments are doing, but to suggest their motivation in not relaxing the lockdown to same extent as England is purely political is preposterous.

They are trying to do what is right for their countries. Of course they are helped by the fact they don't have big business backers pressuring them to open up ASAP.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2020)

Last week it was announced that there'd be a 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK. Today its announced that there's been a reciprocal agreement made with France for no quarantine. Where's the logic?


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## rudebhoy (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some clarifications from Raab this morning on Today.  Going back to work from 'today' if possible meant Wednesday - no mention from Raab about doing anything in respect of working from today; and I can sit in the park with my wife and we can meet with my daughter _and _her boyfriend as long as we keep social distancing.  And so given that individuals from different households can meet up - could we four 'get together' in our back garden rather than the park?
		
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If that's true, it makes a total nonsense of only being able to play golf with someone you live with.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some clarifications from Raab this morning on Today.  Going back to work from 'today' if possible meant Wednesday - no mention from Raab about doing anything in respect of working from today; and I can sit in the park with my wife and we can meet with my daughter _and _her boyfriend as long as we keep social distancing.  And so given that individuals from different households can meet up - could we four 'get together' in our back garden rather than the park?
		
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There's a virus spread by close contact or touching, as an adult what do think is sensible? 

If we were spoon-fed detail you would complain of draconian interference in you rights.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			If that's true, it makes a total nonsense of only being able to play golf with someone you live with.
		
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It's what he said.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Last week it was announced that there'd be a 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK. Today its announced that there's been a reciprocal agreement made with France for no quarantine. Where's the logic?
		
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I don’t know whether it’s the media, Government sources, Opposition sources, Civil Servants or whoever, but the last 7-14 days has seen a lot of information being published then denied or questioned or changed etc.

Someone, somewhere, really needs to get a grip of the communication fiasco that seems to have gone up a level.


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## rudebhoy (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Last week it was announced that there'd be a 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK. Today its announced that there's been a reciprocal agreement made with France for no quarantine. Where's the logic?
		
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That's nuts if it's true. Makes no sense at all. Of course the fact that people are to be allowed to go wherever they want to while under quarantine, as long as they tell the authorities where they are planning to stay, is so weak and open to abuse, it is pretty pointless.


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## User62651 (May 11, 2020)

Major horlicks from Raab today, has had to retract already what he said earlier about meeting both parents in a park. Chaotic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			There's a virus spread by close contact or touching, as an adult what do think is sensible?

If we were spoon-fed detail you would complain of draconian interference in you rights.
		
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I actually rather that the guidance was clear.  My wife and I understand what is best for us...and we will act accordingly.  But if we sit in the park with three couples all from other households socially distancing as required then I would not expect to be pulled up by anyone on us doing so.  besides.  We ALL have to fully understand and behave in accordance with the guidelines, because if some groups don't then there is a risk - and an increased risk in the wider population is an increased risk to everyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's nuts if it's true. Makes no sense at all. Of course the fact that people are to be allowed to go wherever they want to while under quarantine, as long as they tell the authorities where they are planning to stay, is so weak and open to abuse, it is pretty pointless.
		
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Johnson did not give any timescales for the quarantine period being brought in.


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## rudebhoy (May 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Major horlicks from Raab today, has had to retract already what he said earlier about meeting both parents in a park. Chaotic.
		
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What do you expect from the guy who admitted he didn't know that the Channel Tunnel was a key trade route for the UK?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Major horlicks from Raab today, has had to retract already what he said earlier about meeting both parents in a park. Chaotic.
		
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If you listen to his interview on Today he was a bit all over the place in respect of some of the detail...fine on the general Stay Alert message...

If I were cynical I might suggest he was rather having to wing it as he didn't actually have answers for some of the questions - which for many detailed stuff would be understandable - but some of the questions were on the basics - and this on being able to meet family living separate from us is very important to all of us.  I might have thought he'd have a very good idea of what was in the 50page briefing document to be published today and so such questions would be easily fielded.

My wife has already suggested to my daughter than we'd be able to meet up with her and her b/f in the park...now we can't.  But Raab has now told Nick Ferrari on LBC that grandparents can drive to see their grandchildren as long as they socially distance (I didn't hear this but NF has just told his listeners) ...sorry - but this is not great


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## rosecott (May 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They did not go their own way, three out of four components of the United Kingdom were united against any change from 'stay at home'.

Army march past.
Proud Mum.
'Oh look they are all out of step except my Basil'.
		
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So, what you are saying is that the other 3 got together and conspired.


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## huds1475 (May 11, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			It's people just arguing the toss for the sake of it, trying to pick holes in fresh air.
He could have said today "and all Mancunians get 1 million pounds as a bonus" and some gimp on Facebook would moan about having to be taxed on it.
Apologies if any Mancunians were insulted by this post 😁
		
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Seems a sensible policy.

Where do I collect?


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## MegaSteve (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Last week it was announced that there'd be a 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK. Today its announced that there's been a reciprocal agreement made with France for no quarantine. Where's the logic?
		
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And, why no mention of it in yesterday's briefing ?


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## bobmac (May 11, 2020)

As far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed.
I will be staying at home, only going out to buy food, not going to the park and not playing golf.
Just because the restrictions have been eased a touch, doesn't mean you have to go out.
I'm lucky I don't have to go to work and I appreciate lots do but please, if you don't have to go out, don't.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you listen to his interview on Today he was a bit all over the place in respect of some of the detail...fine on the general Stay Alert message...

If I were cynical I might suggest he was rather having to wing it as he didn't actually have answers for some of the questions - which for many detailed stuff would be understandable - but some of the questions were on the basics - and this on being able to meet family living separate from us is very important to all of us.  I might have thought he'd have a very good idea of what was in the 50page briefing document to be published today and so such questions would be easily fielded.

My wife has already suggested to my daughter than we'd be able to meet up with her and her b/f in the park...now we can't.  But Raab has now told Nick Ferrari on LBC that grandparents can drive to see their grandchildren as long as they socially distance (I didn't hear this but NF has just told his listeners) ...sorry - but this is not great 

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Parents meeting up with 25 yr old children, and in your case with a 90 yr old gran is difficult to reconcile. I really feel for you, it a very emotional dilemma. There's also the mortality rate by age group to reconcile too. Less than 5% of 25 yr old die from C-19, if contracted. It rises to 23% for your age group, and 48% for the over 75's.

In the right setting, and using the right control of infection protocols it should be doable. But imagine how you'd feel if MiL caught it, even if not from meeting you all, there'd always be that thought of "I wish we hadn't met."

I'm genuinely sorry for you, and I do hope that there'll be an opportunity very soon.


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## User62651 (May 11, 2020)

rosecott said:



			So, what you are saying is that the other 3 got together and conspired.
		
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Can you really see Unionist Foster conspiring with anti Union Sturgeon just to spite the PM? 
More likley they weren't briefed on the 50 page document from No.10 so could not sign up to something that could easily cost lives that they'd only got snippets of from newspapers.
Utter mess of Johnson's making.


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## harpo_72 (May 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			And, why no mention of it in yesterday's briefing ?
		
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Probably because the level of ridicule it would get ... I read it in an Aussie paper ( you know your out with one bounce one Hand in Aussie test cricket) so I dismissed it with out review.
Throughout this it feels there is a lot of talking for talking sake... and it sounds like Raab was pushed out in front of the mob without preparation.. either way you look at it, they should have said the document will be published, you news teams have an hour to read it and we” the government“ will present with a short question an answer session post briefing.
The media needs managing, at present the government seems to think they are shrewd enough to outwit them ... and they are not. The government would be best advised to respect the media for what they are.. a complete loose cannon rolling across a deck in a force 9.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

rosecott said:



			So, what you are saying is that the other 3 got together and conspired.
		
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Conspired, really 
I would probably assume that they may have discussed the merits of Stay Home for the next two to three weeks.
They would not have had a clue what Being Alert was about as Johnson was obviously not sharing his thoughts with them.


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Last week it was announced that there'd be a 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK. Today its announced that there's been a reciprocal agreement made with France for no quarantine. Where's the logic?
		
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The Logic is obvious. we wouldn't be able to haul anything in if drivers had to quarantine when they got to France and when they arrive here.



rudebhoy said:



			That's nuts if it's true. Makes no sense at all.
		
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As above, where do you think a large chunk of our imports come from?


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## MegaSteve (May 11, 2020)

Don't believe I'll be making much of a change in current routine... If there's a spike in infection rate due to relaxation of lockdown might consider having home delivery of foodstuffs etc... Which, up till now we've not done as others are probably in more need of the service... Could golf with my boomerang boy but probably not until I feel it safe to do so...


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			The Logic is obvious. we wouldn't be able to haul anything in if drivers had to quarantine when they got to France and when they arrive here.



As above, where do you think a large chunk of our imports come from?
		
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Lorry drivers were excluded from the quarantine for the obvious reason you state.


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## harpo_72 (May 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			As far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed.
I will be staying at home, only going out to buy food, not going to the park and not playing golf.
Just because the restrictions have been eased a touch, doesn't mean you have to go out.
I'm lucky I don't have to go to work and I appreciate lots do but please, if you don't have to go out, don't.
		
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Bob that’s it completely, the work stuff should have to be up to the employer to prove they can offer a safe environment.
However, I suspect that people will lose their jobs as the furlough support is withdrawn and employers know they cannot meet the requirements... so bad news for small business ( but I know that is a very pessimistic outlook)


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## harpo_72 (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			The Logic is obvious. we wouldn't be able to haul anything in if drivers had to quarantine when they got to France and when they arrive here.



As above, where do you think a large chunk of our imports come from?
		
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I don’t understand why the container cannot be disconnected from the tractor unit and a local tractor unit and driver takes the container into Europe and vice versa ... it would buy time to search and isolate containers from illegal immigrants... plus minimise the accidents on UK roads down to dodgey tachometer practices...


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

I'm going to reserve my judgement on what was and wasn't said by Boris last night until I've seen the finer details that are supposedly coming during this week are released. As there are several areas I'd like to see clarification on with regards to return to work, impact on my role and my wife's industry with her furlough payments. Oh and the family courts process if they're planning a return so can deal with the ex who is once again playing up.


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Lorry drivers were excluded from the quarantine for the obvious reason you state.
		
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They have been allowed to enter the french border using "Attestations de déplacement international et à l’Outre-mer" 

Our borders haven't been closed, and there has been no quarantine until now/whenever this gets put in place. Hence legislation needs to be passed....


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			"Boris Johnson has said people who cannot work from home, such as those in construction or manufacturing, should be “actively encouraged” to return to work from Monday"

Do you not find that statement vague, we are talking about 12 hours notice and before the details of it have been released.  What do you fail to understand about actively encouraged to return to work from Monday.
		
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Workers who are employed by firms will seek guidance from the workplace, 
and make their input to the employer as to whether their work can SD etc.
Of course that doesn't mean they have to be there at 8am Monday or else.
Workers who are self employed , one man bands, who know they can SD, 
have now been given the green light to go to work, which no doubt they want to do to earn some badly needed money.
There are a lot of such work people. They have been given the opportunity to decide.
How is that bad, or confusing.?
You , I think, and I are sat at home comfortable money wise with pensions: 
It's too easy to look inwardly.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Another question that needs answering is with regards to primary schools re-opening. If they are initially planning to reopen with Year 1 & Year 6 children, what happens if a Year 1 child hurts themselves in school? I'm not talking about a serious injury that requires medical attention, but if a 6 year old falls and hurts themselves and is in tears. How is it possible for a teacher to comfort that child while maintaining social distancing?
		
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God almighty!    Some teaching is still going on, has been all the time.
Same scenario has been possible all that time too.
There are all sorts of situations that could happen to a child in or out of school.

Just to be clear- which camp are you in? The one which said there should be no change to lockdown. Or the one which says Boris has confused everyone and they don't know what to do?


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## huds1475 (May 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			As far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed.
I will be staying at home, only going out to buy food, not going to the park and not playing golf.
Just because the restrictions have been eased a touch, doesn't mean you have to go out.
I'm lucky I don't have to go to work and I appreciate lots do but please, if you don't have to go out, don't.
		
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Doing exactly what the advice says?

Very controversial Bob 😂


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I feel it safe to do so...
		
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That's the key, take your time if you're lucky enough to have the choice!  The stress and worry can cause just as much damage.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			The PM made an error in assuming the adults would be listening.

It was a BRIEFING! The details always follow in a report.

The thrust was obvious that as long as social distancing can be maintained that will be OK, where not protective measures must be in place. If the R rate continues to fall then we move on to the next step. If not then we take a step back.
		
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Exactly. This was the top man explaining a strategy, saying the details will follow tomorrow.

It's like the Army Major giving a briefing before invasion and the soldier complaining that he hasn't said "whether I should turn left or right when i hit the beach"
😀


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Workers who are employed by firms will seek guidance from the workplace,
and make their input to the employer as to whether their work can SD etc.
Of course that doesn't mean they have to be there at 8am Monday or else.
Workers who are self employed , one man bands, who know they can SD,
have now been given the green light to go to work, which no doubt they want to do to earn some badly needed money.
There are a lot of such work people. They have been given the opportunity to decide.
How is that bad, or confusing.?
You , I think, and I are sat at home comfortable money wise with pensions:
It's too easy to look inwardly.
		
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If it was so clear, please explain why Raab has had to clarify some of it this morning, contradicting what boris said?

Then we have No 10 clarifying were Raab got confused.

Too easy to bury your head in the sand.


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## MegaSteve (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. This was the top man explaining a strategy, saying the details will follow tomorrow.

It's like the Army Major giving a briefing before invasion and the soldier complaining that he hasn't said "whether I should turn left or right when i hit the beach"
😀
		
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Perhaps, in hindsight 😉... It might have been a better strategy to have had the "details" to hand allowing headmaster to highlight the most salient points...


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			God almighty!    Some teaching is still going on, has been all the time.
Same scenario has been possible all that time too.
There are all sorts of situations that could happen to a child in or out of school.

Just to be clear- which camp are you in? The one which said there should be no change to lockdown. Or the one which says Boris has confused everyone and they don't know what to do?
		
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I'm in both of those camps. In my opinion lockdown should have been extended by 3 weeks and Boris has confused people with this latest announcement. Not helped by the fact that none of his ministers seem to understand it either judging by some of the answers being given so far.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Aw c’mon, you know calling a woman a witch is an insult. And you know if you called a man a wizard he’d look at you like you were daft in the head.
		
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Yes that’s what I said.
Seems a sense of humour is rapidly disappearing on this forums..


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. This was the top man explaining a strategy, saying the details will follow tomorrow.

*It's like the Army Major giving a briefing before invasion and the soldier complaining that he hasn't said "whether I should turn left or right when i hit the beach"*
😀
		
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It really isn't at all........

A military briefing for an operation is never vague plus always has key criteria & expectations set out, especially when beach landings are concerned to quote your point directly.

I wish people would stop comparing pandemic to war. This is not a war its a virus we can't see nor fight head on. Clearer instructions are needed from those in the "know" not a reliance on military leaders assessing a known threat.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			The Logic is obvious. we wouldn't be able to haul anything in if drivers had to quarantine when they got to France and when they arrive here.
...
		
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Indeed! Either missed off the first announcement (perhaps not finalised) or a fundamental cock-up!
Given the rambling nature of BoJo's announcement - it really was a poor 'performance' - I'm inclined more to the latter description! Raab seems to have returned to his 'I've no clue as the brief was too brief' state too - more's the pity.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Govt have always maintained that all decisions will be made on the back of the best advice possible.

If he thinks the scientific advice warrants relaxing of the rules then it should be freely available and I'd like to read it.

Can anyone point me in the right direction of said  info.
		
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"
Govt have always maintained that all decisions will be made on the back of the best advice possible.

If he thinks the *military* advice warrants *that we attack* then it should be freely available and I'd like to read it.

Can anyone point me in the right direction of said  info"😀

Why is it desirable for the deliberations of SAGE to be given to you and the population as a whole. There may be statements made in there contrary to morale etc, and which should not be in the public domain. 
(Same as the jokular attempt in a military context to illustrate a reason not to divulge certain things)

What you ask is not practical nor desirable.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			It doesn't affect me directly, despite the suggestion that Year 6 children will be returning to school (older Colch Jnr is in Year 6 but won't be returning anyway due to Mrs Colch being in an at risk group), but I fully support anyone that says that this isn't a safe thing to do. Taking it to the next level, what happens if a child hurts themselves in school and does require more advanced medical attention than the school is able to provide? Are the teachers expected to step back and not give any support/comfort to the child until an doctor or ambulance arrives? Or to leave the child alone and in pain while they don whatever PPE is deemed appropriate for the situation?
		
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Year 6 are older and probably ok.
But the younger ones were my concern.
But your point would go for anyone with an injury anywhere.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			It really isn't at all........

A military briefing for an operation is never vague plus always has key criteria & expectations set out, especially when beach landings are concerned to quote your point directly.

I wish people would stop comparing pandemic to war. This is not a war its a virus we can't see nor fight head on. Clearer instructions are needed from those in the "know" not a reliance on military leaders assessing a known threat.
		
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He gave the Exec. Summary. 

There's a 50 pages of detail for those patient enough to bother.


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Don't lose sight of the fact that you started this thread.
		
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Not sure how that excuses rudeness and personal insults?


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			He gave the Exec. Summary.

There's a 50 pages of detail for those patient enough to bother.
		
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Hence my choice in waiting for the full release before passing judgement. The way some people are posting on here if they were on Jury service they'd have given their verdict before hearing the evidence as they don't like the look of the  defendant..


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			He gave the Exec. Summary.

There's a 50 pages of detail for those patient enough to bother.
		
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Then the Government should of refused all interviews until the document was published, Raab certainly came across a few times this morning as someone who hadn’t read the document.


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! Either missed off the first announcement (perhaps not finalised) or a fundamental cock-up!
Given the rambling nature of BoJo's announcement - it really was a poor 'performance' - I'm inclined more to the latter description! Raab seems to have returned to his 'I've no clue as the brief was too brief' state too - more's the pity.
		
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I can't imagine these things can be quickly ratified, but you could also be right! 

It could also be that it's not relevant to the the general population, as with I imagine most of the stuff on that rumoured 50 pager. The mistake was IMO why wasn't this released at the same time as the speech? The media clearly have access to it even tho a large chunk have shown they are not capable or reading what's in front of them. Then there would be no need for debate about "peformance".


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Then the Government should of refused all interviews until the document was published, Raab certainly came across a few times this morning as someone who hadn’t read the document.
		
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Or those asking daft questions could have taken the time to do their research.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Hence my choice in waiting for the full release before passing judgement. The way some people are posting on here if they were on Jury service they'd have given their verdict before hearing the evidence* as they don't like the look of the  defendant.*.
		
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Did they look shifty? Did they smirk? Were their eyes close together?

If the answer to those is all yes then the trial only needs to last one day


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Parents meeting up with 25 yr old children, and in your case with a 90 yr old gran is difficult to reconcile. I really feel for you, it a very emotional dilemma. There's also the mortality rate by age group to reconcile too. Less than 5% of 25 yr old die from C-19, if contracted. It rises to 23% for your age group, and 48% for the over 75's.

In the right setting, and using the right control of infection protocols it should be doable. *But imagine how you'd feel if MiL caught it, even if not from meeting you all, there'd always be that thought of "I wish we hadn't met."*

I'm genuinely sorry for you, and I do hope that there'll be an opportunity very soon.
		
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This is exactly my wife's thinking...She visited her mum just before the lockdown to check she was OK with food and the likes - and then was worried for a couple of weeks in case she'd passed it on to her.  So she has already said that no matter what advice the government gives on relaxing things in the coming days - at the moment she is just not going to risk us visiting her mum.  And so on the 18th May my son and his g/friend are going to drive the 17miles (not quite the 25 I guessed) from Sheffield to her home; say hello and happy 90th birthday; and give her a cake, a card and a bunch of flowers.  Representing us as it were. 

And as my wife's brother is at home and we've sorted broadband for them - we'll set up a HouseParty or Zoom video chat so we can all get together on the day.

Just how it is.  Make best of a bad do.  And we are basically going to stick with things in the @bobmac way.


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Or those asking daft questions could have taken the time to do their research.
		
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Problem is we are always told there is no such thing as a daft question.. People want clarity especially after being told one thing and now another. Whilst I'm happy to wait to pass judgement until I've seen the full plan. 

The government shouldn't have made an announcement if the document wasn't ready to go and for the nation to be thus fully informed post brief. It should have been a fluid movement of briefing and subsequent immediate release of full documentation to public for digesting and understanding. Not doing so has led to confusion and questions which should be readily answerable. 

If as in this case they weren't ready to release it, a simple closing line from Boris we won't be able to answer any further questions until the document has been through HoC tomorrow (today), then Raab wouldn't look a plum with immediate withdrawal of comments and we would at least know more is to come and today's briefing could have been a better prepared Q&A session as everyone would have had the relevant time to understand it all.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Or those asking daft questions could have taken the time to do their research.
		
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Did you see/hear the interviews? He was asked about people going to work from today, he stated boris meant wednesday.

He said it was ok for people to meet their parents in a park at 2 metre distance, he’s wrong, No 10 has clarified.

Why blame the interviewer? He surely has seen the document hasn’t he?


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! Either missed off the first announcement (perhaps not finalised) or a fundamental cock-up!
Given the rambling nature of BoJo's announcement - it really was a poor 'performance' - I'm inclined more to the latter description! Raab seems to have returned to his 'I've no clue as the brief was too brief' state too - more's the pity.
		
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I agree 
Why didn’t he give himself an hour of air time.
He may of explained things to us better then and stopped some of this confusion.
He could have taken whatever time he wanted as there was nothing on tv that could not be postponed.
Quite a poor decision imo.


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## MegaSteve (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That's the key, take your time if you're lucky enough to have the choice!  The stress and worry can cause just as much damage.
		
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Fortunately being in retirement I can, to a certain point, be a master of my own destiny... Fairly happy, also, that both my lads are able to mostly work from home... A bit concerned though, about the current vagueness of the return to schooling for my grandsons...


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They did not go their own way, three out of four components of the United Kingdom were united against any change from 'stay at home'.

Army march past.
Proud Mum.
'Oh look they are all out of step except my Basil'.
		
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The "three out of four"  each have a population of less than 5 million.
And each is financially dependent on the fourth. 
Also, the fourth is the head of the United Kingdom (which is the sovereign country in the UN. ) of which each of the three is a part.
The three were given devolved powers to decide health policy, which they are exercising.
Which means the fourth has  *its *health policy, and, respecting the devolvement powers it *granted* to the other three,it means  we have a difference of strategies.
So how do you have the gall to suggest the fourth should do what the other three want.?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. This was the top man explaining a strategy, saying the details will follow tomorrow.

It's like the Army Major giving a briefing before invasion and the soldier complaining that he hasn't said "whether I should turn left or right when i hit the beach"
😀
		
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Come on - using your analogy the Army Major has told the troops to go over the top tomorrow - when in fact it wasn't 'tomorrow' that his General had told him - it was Wednesday.  Great leadership and not great for the morale of the troops, and pretty calamitous if the major sends his boys over the top without the artillery cover as that wasn't happening until Wednesday.

Given the subsequent confusions, clarifications and corrections already made this morning by the First Secretary of State (so not a minor minister) it is hard to avoid the conclusion that Johnson's briefing has been as useful as a chocolate teapot and that at least one member of the cabinet did not fully understand what was being proposed.

So much for clarity and leadership from our PM


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			A bit concerned though, about the current vagueness of the return to schooling for my grandsons...
		
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I'd imagine not the greatest time to be retired! Personally, I'd try not to add more stress thinking about it. Nothing on that front is happening till June at the earliest. Let's see one the document states and remember it can all change anyway.


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did they look shifty? Did they smirk? Were their eyes close together?

If the answer to those is all yes then the trial only needs to last one day 

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I'm only guilty of the first 2 in your criteria that should mean I'm safe then 😂


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## Kellfire (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's sexism pure and simple. A term that was literally used to justify murdering women and is currently used exclusively to demean women.
		
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Witches are male and female and in certain countries like Iceland more male “witches” were killed than female. It’s an insult but it’s not sexist. 

Wizard is not technically the male version, they’re different things so don’t be fooled by the common misunderstanding.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

The media have advance notice but still ask juvenile "I'll catch you out" style questions when the answer is easily available and they could report the facts rather than race to be first with a 'click-bate' soundbite.

It is not unreasonable to imagine the because of the vast range of businesses and working practices, the Government cannot do any other that present their intentions. They want businesses that can ensure social distancing or, where not, provide mitigation of transmission, to get back to work - the specific HR working methods will be for the businesses to agree and inform their staff.

Whether people meet outside (which is obviously safer) the SD is still the paramount advice for intelligent _adults_ to follow ( that's the erroneous assumption!)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you see/hear the interviews? He was asked about people going to work from today, he stated boris meant wednesday.

He said it was ok for people to meet their parents in a park at 2 metre distance, he’s wrong, No 10 has clarified.

Why blame the interviewer? He surely has seen the document hasn’t he?
		
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I have a feeling your question may be rather rhetorical...


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## User62651 (May 11, 2020)

Damning responses to govt shambles -


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259582027038326787

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259538472181862403


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'm only guilty of the first 2 in your criteria that should mean I'm safe then 😂
		
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Well, you will get to day 2 at least. Don't get caught on the court steps laughing and having a fag though. That is another way to shorten a trial


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			He gave the Exec. Summary.

There's a 50 pages of detail for those patient enough to bother.
		
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Got a link to it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

It appears that many prefer the position being take by the Good Witch of the North...(according to L. Frank Baum - an extremely kind and gentle character who stood against the oppression and subjugation of people  ).

Anyway - sounds like many in London area have taken Johnson's words of yesterday to heart and are travelling to work - packing some underground stations and trains.  They must have missed Raab's clarifications and been unable to walk or cycle.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Got a link to it?
		
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Dominic Green was last night having to lean very hard on that document when fielding questions that he could not answer - and he didn't know what was in it.  Yes he is now a bit of a conservative yesterday's man - but he is a rather senior conservative and one that I have in the past had some time for - as he struggled to keep the tide from coming in on May.


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## Swango1980 (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Post here and leave the other thread to be "how is it affecting you". It used to be my go to thread each day as it was informative and potentially a place for those having a bad day to say
"I'm struggling today".

Now it's the brexit thread by another name.

So feel free to discuss PPE and who's right and wrong to your heart's content *BELOW* - please...pretty please.
		
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I never trust politicians, regardless of party. Lying is part of their job. Not often maliciously, but to try and get support from a population that is massively diverse in millions of topics (sign up to twitter to get a good picture). However, for the first time in my life, this appears to be an issue where there is only one answer, beat this bloomin virus. Therefore, it is the least likely time for political games and lies. And, I believe one of the most trustworthy professions are scientists. People who are constantly caveating and questioning their own logic, while analysing alternative views of any other scientists to determine their merit.

So, I trust our scientists. And, I will make the assumption that politicians are listening to them (although the fact that MPs told us to not trust the experts during Brexit has backfired somewhat).

I'm not saying that the scientists get every single decision spot on, when we have the benefit of hindsight to judge the impact of these decisions. But, I do trust that they are making their absolute best judgements they can in the moment. And, who am I, or the press, to adamantly say they are wrong? After all, the experts we see frequently are hugely intelligent, highly qualified and experienced individuals. They represent a diverse number of disciplines specific to dealing with a pandemic, and they will have teams of hundreds of scientists working with them. I don't mind asking questions, or asking why this is being done or that isn't. But, to then blatantly say they are wrong, is in my mind meaningless because I have no experience or qualifications to defend that argument.

My biggest frustration, without a shadow of a doubt, is the media. For my sins, I watched GMB and Piers Morgan is probably the worst of the lot. But, tabloid media, and even the mainstream media are horrific in the UK. They don't give us news. They give us their opinion. Many spend their entire effort trying to catch out politicians, and thrive when there is a slip of the tongue, something not as clear as it could be, and best of all, they catch an individual out who hasn't actually followed the guidance themselves. It is the media that are primarily responsible for the mixed messages. Their focus should be getting clarification on certain issues, and then relaying that to the public. The media know that negative, sensational headlines sell. Many tabloids have their own agenda anyway, whether the are left or right leaning. Although, given the inter-party division after Brexit, even right leaning media is not going to fully support the government I guess.

Boris (and I'm not a fan of his politically) had 10-15 minutes last night to give out a message. He didn't have hours to go through every fine detail, and if he did, most human beings would have got bored and switched off the TV. So, he spent the 15 minutes basically telling us that there is no real change to lockdown, except he is offering more encouragement for people to go to work, and encouraging more exercise. Basically, they are very slightly trying to push people back to work, but hoping the public can use their common sense (in the main) to continue the way of lives we have been living for the last 7 weeks. Yet, immediately, the media pounce on the fact that every minute detail has not been expressed, as if the entire population need to be told EXACTLY what they can and cannot do (and sadly, much of the public that read these stories than agree, and demand to be told exactly what they can do, as if they are puppets). I mean, we all play golf. During his speech, he did mention sport and solo play. But, of course, we don't know the finer detail specific to golf, and he was never going to go into that detail. However, England Golf will be in more detail discussions, and give us the advice shortly. If you have not been working, then if you are employed you don't immediately go back to work today. You get guidance from your employer, and your employer will have the responsibility to find out the details in the next day or so. If self employed, the speech will have sparked interest that you may be in a position to start working again, but your next step will then be to find out how to proceed based on your actual profession.

I appreciate people are getting frustrated. I am. On one hand, I'm nervous about catching Covid, and even more nervous about a vulnerable family member getting it. On the other, I'm nervous about the economy, and the long term health impacts that could be caused by a complete collapse of the economy and massive unemployment. Some people are on one end of the scale or the other. Some are wholly focused on the catching Covid, and would happily be in lockdown until it has gone, which could be years. Others are more concerned about their jobs, and the ability to support their families and pay their mortgage over the long term. Very generally speaking, would a retired vulnerable pensioner have the same opinion as a 20/30 something year old chef with 3 kids and a partner? This is the difficulty of a government who is meant to be looking out for us all, yet and measures would not necessarily be perfect for every single individual and their own circumstances.

I just wish we could get behind the government and the scientists for this, because it will be them that get us through it. It won't be me, it won't be Piers Morgan or Gary Linekar. Keep asking questions, indeed, but don't automatically decide the answer you get is wrong before you have even heard and digested it.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Got a link to it?
		
Click to expand...

Government website this afternoon.

Current summary is surely clear enough if people take it sensibly ... e.g. it says...

*Stay alert*
We can all help control the virus if we all stay alert. This means you must:


Stay at home as much as possible
Work from home if you can
Limit contact with other people
Keep your distance if you go out (2 metres apart where possible)
Wash your hands regularly
Self-isolate if you or anyone in your household has symptoms.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Or those asking daft questions could have taken the time to do their research.
		
Click to expand...

How long before BoJo read (well, waffled through) the anouncement was it announed that there'd be an announcement on Sunday? Was it almost a week? Surely that's sufficient time to organise a proper 'release', even if there may be some last minute changes.

You seem to becoming simply an apologist for this government's (or party's) shambolic PR!


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I never trust politicians, regardless of party. Lying is part of their job. Not often maliciously, but to try and get support from a population that is massively diverse in millions of topics (sign up to twitter to get a good picture). However, for the first time in my life, this appears to be an issue where there is only one answer, beat this bloomin virus. Therefore, it is the least likely time for political games and lies. And, I believe one of the most trustworthy professions are scientists. People who are constantly caveating and questioning their own logic, while analysing alternative views of any other scientists to determine their merit.

So, I trust our scientists. And, I will make the assumption that politicians are listening to them (although the fact that MPs told us to not trust the experts during Brexit has backfired somewhat).

I'm not saying that the scientists get every single decision spot on, when we have the benefit of hindsight to judge the impact of these decisions. But, I do trust that they are making their absolute best judgements they can in the moment. And, who am I, or the press, to adamantly say they are wrong? After all, the experts we see frequently are hugely intelligent, highly qualified and experienced individuals. They represent a diverse number of disciplines specific to dealing with a pandemic, and they will have teams of hundreds of scientists working with them. I don't mind asking questions, or asking why this is being done or that isn't. But, to then blatantly say they are wrong, is in my mind meaningless because I have no experience or qualifications to defend that argument.

My biggest frustration, without a shadow of a doubt, is the media. For my sins, I watched GMB and Piers Morgan is probably the worst of the lot. But, tabloid media, and even the mainstream media are horrific in the UK. They don't give us news. They give us their opinion. Many spend their entire effort trying to catch out politicians, and thrive when there is a slip of the tongue, something not as clear as it could be, and best of all, they catch an individual out who hasn't actually followed the guidance themselves. It is the media that are primarily responsible for the mixed messages. Their focus should be getting clarification on certain issues, and then relaying that to the public. The media know that negative, sensational headlines sell. Many tabloids have their own agenda anyway, whether the are left or right leaning. Although, given the inter-party division after Brexit, even right leaning media is not going to fully support the government I guess.

Boris (and I'm not a fan of his politically) had 10-15 minutes last night to give out a message. He didn't have hours to go through every fine detail, and if he did, most human beings would have got bored and switched off the TV. So, he spent the 15 minutes basically telling us that there is no real change to lockdown, except he is offering more encouragement for people to go to work, and encouraging more exercise. Basically, they are very slightly trying to push people back to work, but hoping the public can use their common sense (in the main) to continue the way of lives we have been living for the last 7 weeks. Yet, immediately, the media pounce on the fact that every minute detail has not been expressed, as if the entire population need to be told EXACTLY what they can and cannot do (and sadly, much of the public that read these stories than agree, and demand to be told exactly what they can do, as if they are puppets). I mean, we all play golf. During his speech, he did mention sport and solo play. But, of course, we don't know the finer detail specific to golf, and he was never going to go into that detail. However, England Golf will be in more detail discussions, and give us the advice shortly. If you have not been working, then if you are employed you don't immediately go back to work today. You get guidance from your employer, and your employer will have the responsibility to find out the details in the next day or so. If self employed, the speech will have sparked interest that you may be in a position to start working again, but your next step will then be to find out how to proceed based on your actual profession.

I appreciate people are getting frustrated. I am. On one hand, I'm nervous about catching Covid, and even more nervous about a vulnerable family member getting it. On the other, I'm nervous about the economy, and the long term health impacts that could be caused by a complete collapse of the economy and massive unemployment. Some people are on one end of the scale or the other. Some are wholly focused on the catching Covid, and would happily be in lockdown until it has gone, which could be years. Others are more concerned about their jobs, and the ability to support their families and pay their mortgage over the long term. Very generally speaking, would a retired vulnerable pensioner have the same opinion as a 20/30 something year old chef with 3 kids and a partner? This is the difficulty of a government who is meant to be looking out for us all, yet and measures would not necessarily be perfect for every single individual and their own circumstances.

I just wish we could get behind the government and the scientists for this, because it will be them that get us through it. It won't be me, it won't be Piers Morgan or Gary Linekar. Keep asking questions, indeed, but don't automatically decide the answer you get is wrong before you have even heard and digested it.
		
Click to expand...

I've been amazed how many professional people - business owners, head teachers etc. who have been bleating this morning "we don't know how...we haven't been told...the government hasn't given clarity". Do your job. Accept some responsibility for decisions. Listen to the detail given today and then implement some of the plans you should already have had in place for a re-opening. Head teachers usually bleat about government interference and now they want to be given chapter and verse as to how to run their school. Gave up on the news in the end as it was just more of the same and not one person said "ok, that's good...we have a plan and now will get to work preparing".


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I never trust politicians, regardless of party. Lying is part of their job. Not often maliciously, but to try and get support from a population that is massively diverse in millions of topics (sign up to twitter to get a good picture). However, for the first time in my life, this appears to be an issue where there is only one answer, beat this bloomin virus. Therefore, it is the least likely time for political games and lies. And, I believe one of the most trustworthy professions are scientists. People who are constantly caveating and questioning their own logic, while analysing alternative views of any other scientists to determine their merit.

So, I trust our scientists. And, I will make the assumption that politicians are listening to them (although the fact that MPs told us to not trust the experts during Brexit has backfired somewhat).

I'm not saying that the scientists get every single decision spot on, when we have the benefit of hindsight to judge the impact of these decisions. But, I do trust that they are making their absolute best judgements they can in the moment. And, who am I, or the press, to adamantly say they are wrong? After all, the experts we see frequently are hugely intelligent, highly qualified and experienced individuals. They represent a diverse number of disciplines specific to dealing with a pandemic, and they will have teams of hundreds of scientists working with them. I don't mind asking questions, or asking why this is being done or that isn't. But, to then blatantly say they are wrong, is in my mind meaningless because I have no experience or qualifications to defend that argument.

My biggest frustration, without a shadow of a doubt, is the media. For my sins, I watched GMB and Piers Morgan is probably the worst of the lot.* But, tabloid media, and even the mainstream media are horrific in the UK. They don't give us news. They give us their opinion*. Many spend their entire effort trying to catch out politicians, and thrive when there is a slip of the tongue, something not as clear as it could be, and best of all, they catch an individual out who hasn't actually followed the guidance themselves. It is the media that are primarily responsible for the mixed messages. T*heir focus should be getting clarification on certain issues, and then relaying that to the public.* The media know that negative, sensational headlines sell. Many tabloids have their own agenda anyway, whether the are left or right leaning. Although, given the inter-party division after Brexit, even right leaning media is not going to fully support the government I guess.

Boris (and I'm not a fan of his politically) had 10-15 minutes last night to give out a message. He didn't have hours to go through every fine detail, and if he did, most human beings would have got bored and switched off the TV. So, he spent the 15 minutes basically telling us that there is no real change to lockdown, except he is offering more encouragement for people to go to work, and encouraging more exercise. Basically, they are very slightly trying to push people back to work, but hoping the public can use their common sense (in the main) to continue the way of lives we have been living for the last 7 weeks. Yet, immediately, the media pounce on the fact that every minute detail has not been expressed, as if the entire population need to be told EXACTLY what they can and cannot do (and sadly, much of the public that read these stories than agree, and demand to be told exactly what they can do, as if they are puppets). I mean, we all play golf. During his speech, he did mention sport and solo play. But, of course, we don't know the finer detail specific to golf, and he was never going to go into that detail. However, England Golf will be in more detail discussions, and give us the advice shortly. If you have not been working, then if you are employed you don't immediately go back to work today. You get guidance from your employer, and your employer will have the responsibility to find out the details in the next day or so. If self employed, the speech will have sparked interest that you may be in a position to start working again, but your next step will then be to find out how to proceed based on your actual profession.

I appreciate people are getting frustrated. I am. On one hand, I'm nervous about catching Covid, and even more nervous about a vulnerable family member getting it. On the other, I'm nervous about the economy, and the long term health impacts that could be caused by a complete collapse of the economy and massive unemployment. Some people are on one end of the scale or the other. Some are wholly focused on the catching Covid, and would happily be in lockdown until it has gone, which could be years. Others are more concerned about their jobs, and the ability to support their families and pay their mortgage over the long term. Very generally speaking, would a retired vulnerable pensioner have the same opinion as a 20/30 something year old chef with 3 kids and a partner? This is the difficulty of a government who is meant to be looking out for us all, yet and measures would not necessarily be perfect for every single individual and their own circumstances.

I just wish we could get behind the government and the scientists for this, because it will be them that get us through it. It won't be me, it won't be Piers Morgan or Gary Linekar. Keep asking questions, indeed, but don't automatically decide the answer you get is wrong before you have even heard and digested it.
		
Click to expand...

And the worrying thing is that most newspaper media is favourable to the conservative government, imagine how apoplectic they would be if Labour were in power...

In British society we have created a situation where complex messages and issues have been simplified beyond belief and the public often treated like idiots, often for political gain. You can't then start getting upset if people are not understanding nuanced, and at times complex messages.


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

I thought Boris started ok but then it was a bit too much waffle and overdid the statesman/churchillian like effort. To be fair I didn't think he had that in him and he's generally spoken quite well.

I'm not confused by the message and read the whole transcript today to see what I was missing as there seems confusion a plenty. Still confused about the confusion.


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## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I've been amazed how many professional people - business owners, head teachers etc. who have been bleating this morning "we don't know how...we haven't been told...the government hasn't given clarity". Do your job. Accept some responsibility for decisions. Listen to the detail given today and then implement some of the plans you should already have had in place for a re-opening. *Head teachers usually bleat about government interference and now they want to be given chapter and verse as to how to run their school.* Gave up on the news in the end as it was just more of the same and not one person said "ok, that's good...we have a plan and now will get to work preparing".
		
Click to expand...

The vast majority do have various plans and are very competent at running their schools.  The are perhaps asking for a bit more clarity and a few key headlines for parents, as a lot of them this morning are spending their time firefighting and trying to calm down worried parents and teachers.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Government website this afternoon.

Current summary is surely clear enough if people take it sensibly ... e.g. it says...

*Stay alert*
We can all help control the virus if we all stay alert. This means you must:


Stay at home as much as possible
Work from home if you can
Limit contact with other people
Keep your distance if you go out (2 metres apart where possible)
Wash your hands regularly
Self-isolate if you or anyone in your household has symptoms.
		
Click to expand...

Got a link to it? The 50 page doc! 2nd time asked, so expect a link!

The info above hasn't changed from pevious recommendation (and may actually BE previous recommendation)! Have you noticed the time? It's not 'this afternoon' yet!!


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I thought Boris started ok but then it was a bit too much waffle and overdid the statesman/churchillian like effort. To be fair I didn't think he had that in him and he's generally spoken quite well.

I'm not confused by the message and read the whole transcript today to see what I was missing as there seems confusion a plenty. Still confused about the confusion.
		
Click to expand...

Probably BoJo's worst (public) performance!


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The other 3 would have been perfectly aware that the PM intended to make a major announcement on Sunday. Rather than wait for that, they chose not to wait and see what the announcement was, and elected to go their own way.
		
Click to expand...

And all 3 where part of the Cobra meeting in the morning.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Got a link to it? The 50 page doc! 2nd time asked, so expect a link!

The info above hasn't changed from pevious recommendation (and may actually BE previous recommendation)! Have you noticed the time? It's not 'this afternoon' yet!!
		
Click to expand...

Normally these things wont be published until after the statement that is to be made to parliament. Around 1500 hrs if your really interested.


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## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Probably BoJo's worst (public) performance!
		
Click to expand...

Depends what you were expecting. Personally I thought if you like popularist leaders who try to invoke great orators of the past but don't actually say much then he did fine. if you were looking for a bit more detail then possibly not


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They did not go their own way, three out of four components of the United Kingdom were united against any change from 'stay at home'.

Army march past.
Proud Mum.
'Oh look they are all out of step except my Basil'.
		
Click to expand...

First Minister - Stay at Home ------ but go out as much as you like


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

The current stooshie seems to have been caused by the press briefing given to a few 'friendly' journalists by 'someone' at Conservative high office.
The next day the 'sympathetic' press then basically signalled the end of lockdown and heralding Boris as the Hero/Saviour/whatever.
The general public and the three devolved nations were not entirely favourable to that.
The government then had to quickly re-write their plans
Hence resulting dogs dinner of information about the future management of Covid 19.

'Someone' at Conservative HQ needs to collect a P45.


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## Slab (May 11, 2020)

It does seem a little peculiar that the PM only spoke for 13 or so minutes on one of the most important addresses in recent times (if not important then certainly one of the most eagerly awaited) by comparison, typically the chancellors budget speech lasts an hour or more (+questions) for something that's almost routine  

Both topics have much larger supporting documents that provide the detail, both broadcast live to the nation. I wonder why it was kept so short last night when the platform was there for him to expand on quite a few of the areas to add clarity or justification


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			He gave the Exec. Summary.

There's a 50 pages of detail for those patient enough to bother.
		
Click to expand...

The last thing we needed was any unclear, contradictory or confusing information on what we have to do, it's far to important an issue for that. 

The fact that people are disagreeing and confused shows the Governments announcement yesterday should have been managed better. Boris didnt need to give snippets of Information in an inprecise manner, people want clarity of information or many will interpret it in their own way.

IMO Boris should have explained the new threat level system and how the R rate affects it, he should have explained very briefly that there will be some changes to taking exercise and people working and that's it.  He should then have explained that the detail of the new rules will be published today along with further announcements to clarify.  Nothing should have changed for at least one week to give people and businesses time to adjust.

If I would have introduced change in my company the way this has been handled I would  have a very unhappy workforce.  Not impressed at all.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some clarifications from Raab this morning on Today.  Going back to work from 'today' if possible meant Wednesday - no mention from Raab about doing anything in respect of working from today; and he advised that I can sit in the park with my wife, and we can meet with my daughter _and _her boyfriend as long as we keep social distancing.  That guidance does raise further questions though - given that individuals from different households can meet up could we four 'get together' in our back garden rather than the park; and could we meet up with them plus my daughter's b/fs parents in the same way?  Guess we'll hear about that today...
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps when you meet in your garden the first thing that you do is offer a coffee or a tea, then perhaps someone will want a biscuit and then someone needs a pee, seems pretty obvious why people shouldn't be going around to other peoples gardens really.  But then again, some people cant be convinced.

The message was get back to work if safe to do so seems pretty obviouse, the from message was to cater for those that were needed to go in and make things safe I would have thought but then again, I'm not making excuses or find a reason to question everything that comes out of a ministers mouth.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Depends what you were expecting. Personally I thought if you like popularist leaders who try to invoke great orators of the past but don't actually say much then he did fine. if you were looking for a bit more detail then possibly not
		
Click to expand...

No. His 'performance' was simply dreadful - and that's unrelated to the content!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And all 3 where part of the Cobra meeting in the morning.
		
Click to expand...

The meeting that was held after he had pre-recorded his broadcast and a day after the 50 page document had been sent to the printers.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Last week it was announced that there'd be a 14 day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK. Today its announced that there's been a reciprocal agreement made with France for no quarantine. Where's the logic?
		
Click to expand...

None as there is no logic for Ireland to be included as well.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Normally these things wont be published until after the statement that is to be made to parliament. Around 1500 hrs if your really interested.
		
Click to expand...

That would mean 'insider knowledge' is involved!


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## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			It does seem a little peculiar that the PM only spoke for 13 or so minutes on one of the most important addresses in recent times (if not important then certainly one of the most eagerly awaited) by comparison, typically the chancellors budget speech lasts an hour or more (+questions) for something that's almost routine 

Both topics have much larger supporting documents that provide the detail, both broadcast live to the nation. *I wonder why it was kept so short last night *when the platform was there for him to expand on quite a few of the areas to add clarity or justification 

Click to expand...

I genuinely do think he is still recovering and probably could not have managed anything much longer if he needed to get into details. Not overly his fault as it sounds like it was touch and go at one stage for him, but he has been conspicuous by his absence a lot recently.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I've been amazed how many professional people - business owners, head teachers etc. who have been bleating this morning "we don't know how...we haven't been told...the government hasn't given clarity". Do your job. Accept some responsibility for decisions. Listen to the detail given today and then implement some of the plans you should already have had in place for a re-opening. Head teachers usually bleat about government interference and now they want to be given chapter and verse as to how to run their school. Gave up on the news in the end as it was just more of the same and not one person said "ok, that's good...we have a plan and now will get to work preparing".
		
Click to expand...

This is people’s/families lives we are playing with here, it’s ok saying accept respinsibility for decisions, but how many have actually been in a position of making life and death decisions? Have you?


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			It does seem a little peculiar that the PM only spoke for 13 or so minutes on one of the most important addresses in recent times (if not important then certainly one of the most eagerly awaited) by comparison, typically the chancellors budget speech lasts an hour or more (+questions) for something that's almost routine 

Both topics have much larger supporting documents that provide the detail, both broadcast live to the nation. I wonder why it was kept so short last night when the platform was there for him to expand on quite a few of the areas to add clarity or justification 

Click to expand...

No. Duration was fine! Presentation was dire!


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Can you really see Unionist Foster conspiring with anti Union Sturgeon just to spite the PM? 
More likley they weren't briefed on the 50 page document from No.10 so could not sign up to something that could easily cost lives that they'd only got snippets of from newspapers.
Utter mess of Johnson's making.
		
Click to expand...

Apart from the WORK arrangemnts and a word change in the message there are no major differences between what is being said by any of the 4. 

As to your comment about Foster, it was not well thought out seeing as she was able to get complete agreement with the political wing of the IRA I'm sure she would have no problem agreeing anything with someone who is claiming to be a-political during this crises.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No. His 'performance' was simply dreadful - and that's unrelated to the content!
		
Click to expand...

Quite a few 'second takes' according to my daughter [who should know] seemingly the positioning of his hands is a dead give away


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I genuinely do think he is still recovering and probably could not have managed anything much longer if he needed to get into details. Not overly his fault as it sounds like it was touch and go at one stage for him, but he has been conspicuous by his absence a lot recently.
		
Click to expand...

That's possible. Oh, and 'new father syndrome' might be prescribed too! But if really the case, then he shouldn't (imo) be 'back in charge' yet!


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No. Duration was fine! Presentation was dire!
		
Click to expand...

He was a bit "handsy". 



pauldj42 said:



			This is people’s/families lives we are playing with here, it’s ok saying accept respinsibility for decisions, but how many have actually been in a position of making life and death decisions? Have you?
		
Click to expand...

We did our due diligence before the lockdown was announced, giving everyone time to get to relatives/where they wanted their base to be. We have our plan on reopening the office when deemed safe. It's not that hard.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

Has anyone else seen the pictures of people crammed on the tube this morning. Very worrying.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I've been amazed how many professional people - business owners, head teachers etc. who have been bleating this morning "we don't know how...we haven't been told...the government hasn't given clarity". Do your job. Accept some responsibility for decisions. Listen to the detail given today and then implement some of the plans you should already have had in place for a re-opening. Head teachers usually bleat about government interference and now they want to be given chapter and verse as to how to run their school. Gave up on the news in the end as it was just more of the same and not one person said "ok, that's good...we have a plan and now will get to work preparing".
		
Click to expand...

What we don't hear is all those who are doing exactly as you suggest. That is not news worthy. There are plenty of businesses who have already changed practices, plenty who have been thinking how to change and have just been waiting for the green light to proceed. The decent ones will be halfway there already, the managers, the heads etc and will just get on with it. Those who are not sure should really keep quiet and wait until this afternoons release. I would be disappointed in heads, managers etc being on the news this morning, they would not fill me with confidence.


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## Slab (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has anyone else seen the pictures of people crammed on the tube this morning. Very worrying.
		
Click to expand...

Just saw it about 15 minutes ago, I kinda want that to be a library pic but worried that its actually from this morning


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has anyone else seen the pictures of people crammed on the tube this morning. Very worrying.
		
Click to expand...

It's been like that most days as far as I'm aware (haven't ventured out myself.)


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## Blue in Munich (May 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Well Ms Sturgeon was very clear as to why the stay at home message isnt changing.

As opposed to the bumbling fool who wasted 20mins  to basically say we'll tell you tomorrow. All well and good encouraging people back to work  but its got to be safe for everyone involved, not the few.

We'll have to take a half on this I think 👍
		
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Stu, you can have a win on her clarity over Boris, no argument with that; my issue is with her choosing to schedule her announcement prior to the Number 10 announcement.  She is the First Minister of  Scotland, not the UK, so as such I believe she should schedule her comments at the same time or after the Prime Minister's, not before.  That make's it a half overall


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## HomerJSimpson (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has anyone else seen the pictures of people crammed on the tube this morning. Very worrying.
		
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Seen a few photos recently showing this, prior to last nights update, although all the graphs I've seen at the daily briefings seem to show tube activity way down. If these pictures are a true reflection of usage it is indeed worrying regarding spread of the virus


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Probably BoJo's worst (public) performance!
		
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In the eyes of some, possibly an IMO should have been tagged in.


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

I've not seen the pictures from the tube today or recently so can't comment. But obviously there is things going on that are not adhering to the rules.
But saw this article elsewhere about some perspective of pictures we're seeing during lockdown. Who'd have thought changing lenses or angles would make such a difference on how we perceive what we're shown..

https://www.boredpanda.com/differen...s-wide-angle-philip-davali-olafur-steinar-ry/

Edit I should add my knowledge of photography is trash so I don't know if this is accurate representation either way but found it interesting.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That would mean 'insider knowledge' is involved!

Click to expand...


Or just a knowledge and understanding how things normally work which goes along with giving opposition leaders the necessary docs.  Prior to the statement.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has anyone else seen the pictures of people crammed on the tube this morning. Very worrying.
		
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If it was BBC Breakfast, it was library footage.


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## Blue in Munich (May 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			If it was just 1 of the 3 smaller nations rejecting No10 ;then you could have a point about mischief making but when all 3 reject it, each with separate CMOs and independent scientific advisors, then that looks based solely on health judgement. BJ didn't consult in advance with other nations, lied about that.
*Health is a devolved issue, why is that hard to grasp, so each nation can do what it sees fit*, Boris is the one making the changes for England, not the 3 devolved govts, they have stuck firmly to No 10s original lockdown rules for the past 7 weeks, no boat rocked there, and wish to stick with that stay home message for longer. Lives are at stake and leaders carry that heavy burden, use of the word catastrophic would not be said lightly.
It is confusing people, perhaps some clarity will come tomorrow in Commons which begs the question why not wait until Monday to do the TV message, once MPs had asked PM some questions first? Boris ignoring parliament again?
		
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Nothing at all hard to grasp about that at all.  

I don't believe I've commented on or criticised the First Minister for Scotland's arrangements; indeed in one post I've agreed that dependant on circumstances, different arrangements in different countries within the Union are sensible.  What I have commented on is the fact that she is announcing her departure from the UK's standards BEFORE the UK's standard has been announced.  And I have criticised all of them for failing to play nicely together like grown ups in the current situation, but not anyone's right to make different arrangements.  I don't like the current half-arsed arrangements, nor can I understand the First Minister for Scotland's stance regarding unions, but it is what it is and that's my problem to get my head round.

Perhaps you can clarify what is hard to grasp about that?


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

I just don’t understand what’s so hard.

If you suspected you were infectious or knew you were infected what would you do?  Would you be wise and ALERT enough keep away from other people. YES - I hope!

Are you ALERT to the evident risks to yourself: so if there was a chance someone else could infect you’d…

Stay away or at least stay 2m apart and minimise the time (<10-15min) in their proximity.
If you cannot work and earn your money from home and your work place is safe (SD and protection available) then why not go to work; keep ALERT to the risk; ideally avoiding others by staying 2m apart. Walk, cycle or drive on your own.
Do not go out near other people unless you really NEED to rather than WANT to.
If you MUST rather than simply wish to go abroad would you all feel safe, allowing for SD, insurance, getting home etc.
If you run a business/organisation can you keep your employees safe (2m apart, comply with H&S and insurance risks, etc.) and can your customers stay safe, apart? Can you make enough money for it to be prudent?
.......
But I guess sensible behaviour is sometimes in short supply and doesn't sell newspapers or the media need for hype - thankfully the idiots are also in 'relatively' short supply.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What we don't hear is all those who are doing exactly as you suggest. That is not news worthy. There are plenty of businesses who have already changed practices, plenty who have been thinking how to change and have just been waiting for the green light to proceed. The decent ones will be halfway there already, the managers, the heads etc and will just get on with it. Those who are not sure should really keep quiet and wait until this afternoons release. I would be disappointed in heads, managers etc being on the news this morning, they would not fill me with confidence.
		
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Why have they waited for last night, he didn’t actually change anything?
Those who couldn’t work from home and work safely have never been stopped from working.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			He was a bit "handsy".



We did our due diligence before the lockdown was announced, giving everyone time to get to relatives/where they wanted their base to be. We have our plan on reopening the office when deemed safe. It's not that hard.
		
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Is it safe? Could some of your employees turned up this morning on the fact boris said so?


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## Blue in Munich (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I've not seen the pictures from the tube today or recently so can't comment. But obviously there is things going on that are not adhering to the rules.
But saw this article elsewhere about some perspective of pictures we're seeing during lockdown. Who'd have thought changing lenses or angles would make such a difference on how we perceive what we're shown..

https://www.boredpanda.com/differen...s-wide-angle-philip-davali-olafur-steinar-ry/

*Edit I should add my knowledge of photography is trash so I don't know if this is accurate representation either way but found it interesting.*

Click to expand...

No, I'd say that's pretty accurate.


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, I'd say that's pretty accurate. 

Click to expand...

Looked pretty accurate to me to.. I only added the edit because couldn't be bothered with the usual know bettter brigade wetting themselves to pull holes in it, so thought I'd acknowledge its not a professional opinion i hold 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why have they waited for last night, he didn’t actually change anything?
Those who couldn’t work from home and work safely have never been stopped from working.
		
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They haven't and many have carried on. Many were under pressure to close however and succumbed to that. Yesterday gave those wavering about whether to open or not the green light to get some staff back without getting abuse or grief from staff, social media etc. 

There is a carpet shop next to our unit. Easy to maintain SD there, plenty of space, but he hasn't felt able to open because of the likely online grief he would get that could damage his business. Today he is open.

Clearly very different for schools who were told to close except for those looking after kids of key workers.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			In the eyes of some, possibly an IMO should have been tagged in.
		
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Surely 'IMO' is implicitly tagged to EVERY post, at least in this and other 'opinion' threads - unless you onsider yourself exempt! And my 'Probably' is surely sufficient in any case!


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Come on - using your analogy the Army Major has told the troops to go over the top tomorrow - when in fact it wasn't 'tomorrow' that his General had told him - it was Wednesday.  Great leadership and not great for the morale of the troops, and pretty calamitous if the major sends his boys over the top without the artillery cover as that wasn't happening until Wednesday.

Given the subsequent confusions, clarifications and corrections already made this morning by the First Secretary of State (so not a minor minister) it is hard to avoid the conclusion that Johnson's briefing has been as useful as a chocolate teapot and that at least one member of the cabinet did not fully understand what was being proposed.

So much for clarity and leadership from our PM 

Click to expand...

Coming on 😀  - Your decision that Boris had made a confused message was made within minutes or hours of the broadcast. That is evidenced by you quoting your wife's reaction to the broadcast.
So if the "General" had said tomorrow in that broadcast, whose fault is it if someone listening thought it was Wednesday. 
In any event, my analogy was a bit different from yours. I was trying to illustrate the difference between strategy , tactics and detailed instruction .
I was defending accusations that Boris was confusing, not that he had given a clear message that was passed on wrongly( which is what your tomorrow and Wednesday analogy has given )
And the defence is that it is not his job to give minutiae of his strategy, he said clearly that would come later.
If people are demanding detail from him in that speech, like they are, I am saying that is unreasonable, and in some cases also disingenuous.

BTW , I have sent you a conversation.


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## DRW (May 11, 2020)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbyoccupationenglandandwales/deathsregistereduptoandincluding20april2020

Grim reading, especially for men and people who work certain sectors.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it safe? Could some of your employees turned up this morning on the fact boris said so?
		
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Commuters starting to call it Muddle Monday, so perhaps Johnson's message is not getting across.

FM now taking questions from the unionist press, I hope for their sake that they have done their homework.

Oops that did not take long...……..Angry shouty reporter, 'Why do you refuse to publish Scotland's R number'
Steely look from Nicola 'I have already published Scotland's R number'.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I never trust politicians, regardless of party. Lying is part of their job. Not often maliciously, but to try and get support from a population that is massively diverse in millions of topics (sign up to twitter to get a good picture). However, for the first time in my life, this appears to be an issue where there is only one answer, beat this bloomin virus. Therefore, it is the least likely time for political games and lies. And, I believe one of the most trustworthy professions are scientists. People who are constantly caveating and questioning their own logic, while analysing alternative views of any other scientists to determine their merit.

So, I trust our scientists. And, I will make the assumption that politicians are listening to them (although the fact that MPs told us to not trust the experts during Brexit has backfired somewhat).

I'm not saying that the scientists get every single decision spot on, when we have the benefit of hindsight to judge the impact of these decisions. But, I do trust that they are making their absolute best judgements they can in the moment. And, who am I, or the press, to adamantly say they are wrong? After all, the experts we see frequently are hugely intelligent, highly qualified and experienced individuals. They represent a diverse number of disciplines specific to dealing with a pandemic, and they will have teams of hundreds of scientists working with them. I don't mind asking questions, or asking why this is being done or that isn't. But, to then blatantly say they are wrong, is in my mind meaningless because I have no experience or qualifications to defend that argument.

My biggest frustration, without a shadow of a doubt, is the media. For my sins, I watched GMB and Piers Morgan is probably the worst of the lot. But, tabloid media, and even the mainstream media are horrific in the UK. They don't give us news. They give us their opinion. Many spend their entire effort trying to catch out politicians, and thrive when there is a slip of the tongue, something not as clear as it could be, and best of all, they catch an individual out who hasn't actually followed the guidance themselves. It is the media that are primarily responsible for the mixed messages. Their focus should be getting clarification on certain issues, and then relaying that to the public. The media know that negative, sensational headlines sell. Many tabloids have their own agenda anyway, whether the are left or right leaning. Although, given the inter-party division after Brexit, even right leaning media is not going to fully support the government I guess.

Boris (and I'm not a fan of his politically) had 10-15 minutes last night to give out a message. He didn't have hours to go through every fine detail, and if he did, most human beings would have got bored and switched off the TV. So, he spent the 15 minutes basically telling us that there is no real change to lockdown, except he is offering more encouragement for people to go to work, and encouraging more exercise. Basically, they are very slightly trying to push people back to work, but hoping the public can use their common sense (in the main) to continue the way of lives we have been living for the last 7 weeks. Yet, immediately, the media pounce on the fact that every minute detail has not been expressed, as if the entire population need to be told EXACTLY what they can and cannot do (and sadly, much of the public that read these stories than agree, and demand to be told exactly what they can do, as if they are puppets). I mean, we all play golf. During his speech, he did mention sport and solo play. But, of course, we don't know the finer detail specific to golf, and he was never going to go into that detail. However, England Golf will be in more detail discussions, and give us the advice shortly. If you have not been working, then if you are employed you don't immediately go back to work today. You get guidance from your employer, and your employer will have the responsibility to find out the details in the next day or so. If self employed, the speech will have sparked interest that you may be in a position to start working again, but your next step will then be to find out how to proceed based on your actual profession.

I appreciate people are getting frustrated. I am. On one hand, I'm nervous about catching Covid, and even more nervous about a vulnerable family member getting it. On the other, I'm nervous about the economy, and the long term health impacts that could be caused by a complete collapse of the economy and massive unemployment. Some people are on one end of the scale or the other. Some are wholly focused on the catching Covid, and would happily be in lockdown until it has gone, which could be years. Others are more concerned about their jobs, and the ability to support their families and pay their mortgage over the long term. Very generally speaking, would a retired vulnerable pensioner have the same opinion as a 20/30 something year old chef with 3 kids and a partner? This is the difficulty of a government who is meant to be looking out for us all, yet and measures would not necessarily be perfect for every single individual and their own circumstances.

I just wish we could get behind the government and the scientists for this, because it will be them that get us through it. It won't be me, it won't be Piers Morgan or Gary Linekar. Keep asking questions, indeed, but don't automatically decide the answer you get is wrong before you have even heard and digested it.
		
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It hasn't been better put, and I doubt it will be.
An excellently reasoned post.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Starbucks to open 130 outlets from Thursday.  Confused...from the BBC website

*What about pubs, cafes, restaurants, theatres and cinemas?*

Mr Johnson says the government "hopes" to reopen "at least some of the hospitality industry and other public places" in England but this will happen later than for shops and schools - by July at the earliest


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Depends what you were expecting. Personally I thought if you like popularist leaders who try to invoke great orators of the past but don't actually say much then he did fine. if you were looking for a bit more detail then possibly not
		
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It wasn't his job to give detail at that time. And he said that would come in the statement to H oC today,!


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Looked pretty accurate to me to.. I only added the edit because couldn't be bothered with the usual know bettter brigade wetting themselves to pull holes in it, so thought I'd acknowledge its not a professional opinion i hold 😂
		
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Yes, that can be manipulated to suit. A crowded tube is a little more difficult though.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It wasn't his job to give detail at that time. And he said that would come in the statement to H oC today,!
		
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He shouldnt have given any then


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

Nicola spot on there.
She has no problem with England or the other Home Nations doing things differently provided that they clearly state that it is for their country/area/ region only.

I am quite surprised why England have not already lifted areas of lockdown for their South West region.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Starbucks to open 130 outlets from Thursday.  Confused...from the BBC website

*What about pubs, cafes, restaurants, theatres and cinemas?*

Mr Johnson says the government "hopes" to reopen "at least some of the hospitality industry and other public places" in England but this will happen later than for shops and schools - by July at the earliest


Click to expand...

Conditional if 'R' continues to fall. What he said was when it is safe and where people are allowed outside and can SD.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Coming on 😀  - Your decision that Boris had made a confused message was made within minutes or hours of the broadcast. That is evidenced by you quoting your wife's reaction to the broadcast.
So if the "General" had said tomorrow in that broadcast, *whose fault is it if someone listening thought it was Wednesday.*
In any event, my analogy was a bit different from yours. I was trying to illustrate the difference between strategy , tactics and detailed instruction .
I was defending accusations that Boris was confusing, not that he had given a clear message that was passed on wrongly( which is what your tomorrow and Wednesday analogy has given )
And the defence is that it is not his job to give minutiae of his strategy, he said clearly that would come later.
If people are demanding detail from him in that speech, like they are, I am saying that is unreasonable, and in some cases also disingenuous.

BTW , I have sent you a conversation.
		
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Johnson said in respect of going back to work 'from tomorrow'.  Raab today said 'from Wednesday'.  It appears many have taken the 'from tomorrow' to heart and just got on with it.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, that can be manipulated to suit. A crowded tube is a little more difficult though.
		
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And when was the photograph taken?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Conditional if 'R' continues to fall. What he said was when it is safe and where people are allowed outside and can SD.
		
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.. but is Starbucks not a cafe and so subject to 'by July at the earliest'?  So what are they doing planning to open 130 outlets from Thursday?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They haven't and many have carried on. Many were under pressure to close however and succumbed to that. Yesterday gave those wavering about whether to open or not the green light to get some staff back without getting abuse or grief from staff, social media etc.

There is a carpet shop next to our unit. Easy to maintain SD there, plenty of space, but he hasn't felt able to open because of the likely online grief he would get that could damage his business. Today he is open.

Clearly very different for schools who were told to close except for those looking after kids of key workers.
		
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He didn’t give the Companies the go ahead though did he? He gave the employees the go ahead, surely it would of been better for him to say business owners should now look at their business and see if everything is in place to ask your employees to return etc and can you look by (insert suitable date here) to open.


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## Slab (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			.. but is Starbucks not a cafe and so subject to 'by July at the earliest'?  So what are they doing planning to open 130 outlets from Thursday?
		
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To be honest that took next to no time to validate. Just drive-throughs and the odd takeaway site


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He didn’t give the Companies the go ahead though did he? He gave the employees the go ahead, surely it would of been better for him to say business owners should now look at their business and see if everything is in place to ask your employees to return etc and can you look by (insert suitable date here) to open.
		
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Employees do what their bosses tell them to do. No one is just going to rock up at work this morning because Boris told them to. Whether on furlough on simply working from home employees will be waiting now to hear from their bosses to see what they want them to do. Bosses will have to work out their next move based on what is best for their company.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			And when was the photograph taken?
		
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The BBC news article said it was people on the tube this morning  it was a video shot.  Maybe they were lieing, who knows.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

The world is in a situation nobody currently alive has faced in their lifetime, lots of different approaches by virtually every Government across the World.

Hindsight will no doubt be the best measure of what worked, what didn’t and hopefully what lessons will be learnt.

In my opinion our Government have got the majority of decisions right and it’s certainly been with the Country’s best interest at heart.

However, there has been a reoccurring theme (even on here) that seems to have troubled them time and time again and that has been their ability to shoot themselves in the foot over the release of information, communication at times has been an own goal:

Testing - They gave the figure.
PPE - They released the details of the Turkey shipment.
Last night - boris could of come on, praised the effort, warned us of the on-going danger and stated a document will be released tomorrow on a way forward, the “snippets” he gave has caused confusion.

I’m not having a go at tories or any party as I still firmly believe no other Party could be proved to have done any better.

Just please clamp down on the leaks or seriously think about the information you are about to give and whether it is actually needed or you’re doing it for effect.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Employees do what their bosses tell them to do. No one is just going to rock up at work this morning because Boris told them to. Whether on furlough on simply working from home employees will be waiting now to hear from their bosses to see what they want them to do. Bosses will have to work out their next move based on what is best for their company.
		
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I agree, but that’s still not what he said, therefore, Why did he say what he did? He even advised how they should travel to work today.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Employees do what their bosses tell them to do. No one is just going to rock up at work this morning because Boris told them to. Whether on furlough on simply working from home employees will be waiting now to hear from their bosses to see what they want them to do. Bosses will have to work out their next move based on what is best for their company.
		
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People also do what the Government say and from what I was reading many people were confused by it including Kears Starmer.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2020)

Was it a picture like this?


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## huds1475 (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			I just don’t understand what’s so hard.

If you suspected you were infectious or knew you were infected what would you do?  Would you be wise and ALERT enough keep away from other people. YES - I hope!

Are you ALERT to the evident risks to yourself: so if there was a chance someone else could infect you’d…

Stay away or at least stay 2m apart and minimise the time (<10-15min) in their proximity.
If you cannot work and earn your money from home and your work place is safe (SD and protection available) then why not go to work; keep ALERT to the risk; ideally avoiding others by staying 2m apart. Walk, cycle or drive on your own.
Do not go out near other people unless you really NEED to rather than WANT to.
If you MUST rather than simply wish to go abroad would you all feel safe, allowing for SD, insurance, getting home etc.
If you run a business/organisation can you keep your employees safe (2m apart, comply with H&S and insurance risks, etc.) and can your customers stay safe, apart? Can you make enough money for it to be prudent?
.......
But I guess sensible behaviour is sometimes in short supply and doesn't sell newspapers or the media need for hype - thankfully the idiots are also in 'relatively' short supply.

Click to expand...

Wasting your time. 

Too many people think they have to comment on everything,  without having the fortitude to be accountable for their own actions.


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## Slab (May 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Was it a picture like this?

View attachment 30601

Click to expand...


Love it


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			People also do what the Government say and from what I was reading many people were confused by it including Kears Starmer.
		
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Keir Starmer chose to be confused by it because it suits him right now. If he really is confused then Labour have chosen the wrong leader.

Employees will follow what is said by the person who pays them when it comes to their jobs.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree, but that’s still not what he said, therefore, Why did he say what he did? He even advised how they should travel to work today.
		
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Unfortunately he is still Boris .  I cringed at the drive to work comment, no idea why he came out with that. I had images of London grinding to a halt in a sea of cars.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Starbucks to open 130 outlets from Thursday.  Confused...from the BBC website

*What about pubs, cafes, restaurants, theatres and cinemas?*

Mr Johnson says the government "hopes" to reopen "at least some of the hospitality industry and other public places" in England but this will happen later than for shops and schools - by July at the earliest


Click to expand...

Possibly takeaway only like many other facilities than can manage. Been happening for a couple of weeks. Obviously Starbucks can cope with SD and providing a safe service.

Keep trying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Excellent.  I can sit in the park with my daughter and my wife can sit in the park with her b/friend - and I can sit beside my wife.  So all distance requirements being observed between us and them then we're sorted 

Of course my daughter's b/friend might want his mum or his dad to be his 'one'...and as long as _they _keep distance from him then they will be fine.  But he can still be sitting beside our daughter...hmmm.  And then there were Six 

Sounds good to me.


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## huds1475 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Keir Starmer chose to be confused by it because it suits him right now. If he really is confused then Labour have chosen the wrong leader.
		
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Made me laugh!  Was thinking the same.

Had no opinion of the chap until last night, but had read he was fairly solid.

Seems not


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## User62651 (May 11, 2020)

Some clarity from PM 



__ https://www.facebook.com/144144931304/posts/10157389509231305


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## Slab (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Excellent.  I can sit in the park with my daughter and my wife can sit in the park with her b/friend - and I can sit beside my wife.  So all distance requirements being observed between us and them then we're sorted 

Of course my daughter's b/friend might want his mum or his dad to be his 'one'...and as long as _they _keep distance from him then they will be fine.  But he can still be sitting beside our daughter...hmmm.  And then there were Six 

Sounds good to me.
		
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Why would your wife meet her boyfriend in the park when you're there!!


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## Red scorpion (May 11, 2020)

Maybe he,s the scientist


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Excellent.  I can sit in the park with my daughter and my wife can sit in the park with her b/friend - and I can sit beside my wife.  So all distance requirements being observed between us and them then we're sorted 

Of course my daughter's b/friend might want his mum or his dad to be his 'one'...and as long as _they _keep distance from him then they will be fine.  But he can still be sitting beside our daughter...hmmm.  And then there were Six 

Sounds good to me.
		
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Now you're just being pedantic to make it suit what you want to hear in a bid to have yet another little dig, but of course you never have a dig do you, just highlight what's wrong. Did I get that right 🤔

Why not use your common sense or better still wait for the clarification document details to be released. 

Yes last night was clear as mud in some areas but petty scenarios like this do nothing to add to debate other than clog it with even more crap.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Some clarity from PM 



__ https://www.facebook.com/144144931304/posts/10157389509231305



Click to expand...

From the man who gets a bag on if someone has a go at the first minister.

Perhaps you can clarify " stay at home ---- but you can go out as much and often as you can"


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Made me laugh!  Was thinking the same.

Had no opinion of the chap until last night, but had read he was fairly solid.

Seems not
		
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His reputation was solid rather than spectacular but that is no bad thing, I don't think Labour need a showboater right now. As a former lawyer and head of the CPS it was his job to decipher and understand complicated documents.

He was not confused and to expect us to believe he was is pretty poor.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Now you're just being pedantic to make it suit what you want to hear in a bid to have yet another little dig, but of course you never have a dig do you, just highlight what's wrong. Did I get that right 🤔

Why not use your common sense or better still wait for the clarification document details to be released.

Yes last night was clear as mud in some areas but petty scenarios like this do nothing to add to debate other than clog it with even more crap.
		
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Don't confuse those that lead with those that want to be led.


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Don't confuse those that lead with those that want to be led.
		
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Oh I'm not the one on here that's confused by either of those options.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Possibly takeaway only like many other facilities than can manage. Been happening for a couple of weeks. Obviously Starbucks can cope with SD and providing a safe service.

Keep trying.
		
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I am not 'trying, I am simply looking at what seems to be happening against what the government is setting out.  I couldn't see how Starbucks was getting around what the government was asking of such as cafes.  I just heard reported that Starbucks were opening outlets - no mention of take-aways or drive-throughs - so I wondering.  But good that that is cleared up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Red scorpion said:



			Maybe he,s the scientist 

Click to expand...

He's my French barber


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Now you're just being pedantic to make it suit what you want to hear in a bid to have yet another little dig, but of course you never have a dig do you, just highlight what's wrong. Did I get that right 🤔

Why not use your common sense or better still wait for the clarification document details to be released.

Yes last night was clear as mud in some areas but petty scenarios like this do nothing to add to debate other than clog it with even more crap.
		
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I'm not.  I have just heard reported what the guidance document says as it has been released.  And the guidance does suggest that we can do this.  My wife would love it were this were allowed - but we won't do it if it's not.

And I now hear reported that my wife could travel 170miles to my MiLs to see her.  I could do likewise go to see her brother.  The fact that _we _would sit opposite _them _in the local rec would work.   Still don't think we'll go and risk it.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

The guidance document if now on the gov.uk website. Don't ask for a link as I don't know how to link it from a tweet on iPad.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			His reputation was solid rather than spectacular but that is no bad thing, I don't think Labour need a showboater right now. As a former lawyer and head of the CPS it was his job to decipher and understand complicated documents.

He was not confused and to expect us to believe he was is pretty poor.
		
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Was he alone in that opinion or are sadly people bringing party politics in to the discussion, despite you yourself cringing at at least one of boris’s comments and his Foreign Secretary being confused on live TV this morning.


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## MegaSteve (May 11, 2020)

Seemingly more and more, to me, we are heading back down the herd immunity route... Without actually stating so as an outright admission 😞...

Perhaps Boris is seeking further support from his new friends in the North by properly mucking over Londoners...


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## 2blue (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Starbucks to open 130 outlets from Thursday.  Confused...from the BBC website

*What about pubs, cafes, restaurants, theatres and cinemas?*

Mr Johnson says the government "hopes" to reopen "at least some of the hospitality industry and other public places" in England but this will happen later than for shops and schools - by July at the earliest


Click to expand...

Yes, I think 'Private Member's Clubs' will be well ahead of Pubs when it comes to re-opening...... would CIU premises fit this description. Fortunately our wee Snooker Club would.


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## Wolf (May 11, 2020)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cing/staying-alert-and-safe-social-distancing

Just been put up... Haven't read it yet but thought I'd share it


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I've been amazed how many professional people - business owners, head teachers etc. who have been bleating this morning "we don't know how...we haven't been told...the government hasn't given clarity". Do your job. Accept some responsibility for decisions. Listen to the detail given today and then implement some of the plans you should already have had in place for a re-opening. Head teachers usually bleat about government interference and now they want to be given chapter and verse as to how to run their school. Gave up on the news in the end as it was just more of the same and not one person said "ok, that's good...we have a plan and now will get to work preparing".
		
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My wife and daughter are teachers.
Their one and only concern is how to keep 30 kids in a class 2mts apart.
Especially the younger ones.
I can see a lot of teachers refusing .
Any other work area has SD so I think head teachers have a point ,are schools different.?


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## 2blue (May 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Seemingly more and more, to me, we are heading back down the herd immunity route... Without actually stating so as an outright admission 😞...

Perhaps Boris is seeking further support from his new friends in the North by properly mucking over Londoners...
		
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Nay... Londoners are considered to be a fine crowd of folk, by us in the North.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cing/staying-alert-and-safe-social-distancing

Just been put up... Haven't read it yet but thought I'd share it
		
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Faq’s link were it specifically mentions Golf.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...avirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do


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## Mudball (May 11, 2020)

What does aim to mean? So should I wear or not?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Was he alone in that opinion or are sadly people bringing party politics in to the discussion, despite you yourself cringing at at least one of boris’s comments and his Foreign Secretary being confused on live TV this morning.
		
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I'm even handed . I've criticised both on specific points, not just one side for the sake of it.

Starmer has a good opportunity to play the statesman through this and really bring Labour back but trying to play dumb when he is clearly a very smart bloke is not the way to do it.

I didn't see the Raab interview this morning so I have stayed away from commenting on that.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I've not seen the pictures from the tube today or recently so can't comment. But obviously there is things going on that are not adhering to the rules.
But saw this article elsewhere about some perspective of pictures we're seeing during lockdown. Who'd have thought changing lenses or angles would make such a difference on how we perceive what we're shown..

https://www.boredpanda.com/differen...s-wide-angle-philip-davali-olafur-steinar-ry/

Edit I should add my knowledge of photography is trash so I don't know if this is accurate representation either way but found it interesting.
		
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This is why a telephoto lens is sometimes used for a portrait shot.
You can get a close up without being to close to the model.
Very clever photographer can make his lenses do anything .


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



View attachment 30604


What does aim to mean? So should I wear or not?
		
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Ooh, tough one. Should I err on the side of caution or risk my life? Is it really that hard? If I was being a cynic I might suggest you're being deliberately obtuse but, obviously, I'm not being a cynic.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm even handed . I've criticised both on specific points, not just one side for the sake of it.

Starmer has a good opportunity to play the statesman through this and really bring Labour back but trying to play dumb when he is clearly a very smart bloke is not the way to do it.

I didn't see the Raab interview this morning so I have stayed away from commenting on that.
		
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Starmer is irrelevant during this, he’s offered his support to boris, stated a couple of times his support for the handling of the crisis.
Seems like he’s damned if does and damned if he doesn’t.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My wife and daughter are teachers.
Their one and only concern is how to keep 30 kids in a class 2mts apart.
Especially the younger ones.
I can see a lot of teachers refusing .
Any other work area has SD so I think head teachers have a point ,are schools different.?
		
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The whole school is not returning though. Yesterday they stated yr 1, 5-6, and year 6, 10-11 would go back first, in three weeks. If they are all in the same school there are empty classrooms from yrs 2, 3, 4 and 5 that can be used to spread the kids out. There are also the teachers from those years that can fill in. Breaks are in the class, as perhaps will be lunches. Start and leave times may be staggered. 

The schools should have had plans A-F ready to put into action, they now have 3 weeks to put them one of them into play. It is not ideal, my parents were both teachers, one a head, so I know that teaching different year groups is messy but they have 3 weeks to talk to each other, share knowledge, what to do etc.

If they had sent back the whole school at once that would have been carnage but only 2 year groups should be manageable. 

@2blue , used to be a teacher I believe. What are the issues based on your experience? 2 years in a school should not be an issue should it? Explain away.


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## 2blue (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Was he alone in that opinion or are sadly people bringing party politics in to the discussion, despite you yourself cringing at at least one of boris’s comments and his Foreign Secretary being confused on live TV this morning.
		
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Spot on Paul. He was simply high-lighting what so many people are feeling.......  it is clear that a lot needs explaining.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Starmer is irrelevant during this, he’s offered his support to boris, stated a couple of times his support for the handling of the crisis.
Seems like he’s damned if does and damned if he doesn’t.
		
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He is not quite that irrelevant. He has offered his support but then had a dig at the same time. He can work the press, social media etc, fan the flames. I'd rather he was supportive now, apart from any major gaffes, and then put the boot in after this is over and any review highlights glaring errors. After this is over will be the time for him to really earn his money. With his background he is perfectly placed to pick apart the govt in a review in a calm and authoratative manner.

It depends which approach you prefer really.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He is not quite that irrelevant. He has offered his support but then had a dig at the same time. He can work the press, social media etc, fan the flames. I'd rather he was supportive now, apart from any major gaffes, and then put the boot in after this is over and any review highlights glaring errors. After this is over will be the time for him to really earn his money. With his background he is perfectly placed to pick apart the govt in a review in a calm and authoratative manner.

It depends which approach you prefer really.
		
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Really disagree with this get involved afterwards line, what if him or anyone getting involved along the way saves lives? We only get 1 shot at this.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Other MP’s are perfectly capable of putting each other in their place, I don’t want anyone quiet, regardless of party.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Seemingly more and more, to me, we are heading back down the herd immunity route... Without actually stating so as an outright admission 😞...

Perhaps Boris is seeking further support from his new friends in the North by properly mucking over Londoners...
		
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It would back up your point if young kids go back to school!
They are impossible to keep apart.
Hope there is as much room in the classrooms as there is in the HOC.


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## Reemul (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Really disagree with this get involved afterwards line, what if him or anyone getting involved along the way saves lives? We only get 1 shot at this.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Other MP’s are perfectly capable of putting each other in their place, I don’t want anyone quiet, regardless of party.
		
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Lots of what's an dif's, nothing I have seen makes me think he could do that, it's the old sly dig rubbish from him. If he wants to have a go, grow some balls, satnd up and amkes some decent valid points instead of these little insinuations and digs, he is making himself  look poor either take a dump on the pot or get off, don't skid the side.


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My wife and daughter are teachers.
Their one and only concern is how to keep 30 kids in a class 2mts apart.
Especially the younger ones.
I can see a lot of teachers refusing .
Any other work area has SD so I think head teachers have a point ,are schools different.?
		
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Surely they won't have 30 in a class though? Plenty of classrooms to allow for SD if only 2 years are back to school. 

I would expect a headteacher to have plans in place for a re-opening and not need every detail provided by the government.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The whole school is not returning though. Yesterday they stated yr 1, 5-6, and year 6, 10-11 would go back first, in three weeks. If they are all in the same school there are empty classrooms from yrs 2, 3, 4 and 5 that can be used to spread the kids out. There are also the teachers from those years that can fill in. Breaks are in the class, as perhaps will be lunches. Start and leave times may be staggered.

The schools should have had plans A-F ready to put into action, they now have 3 weeks to put them one of them into play. It is not ideal, my parents were both teachers, one a head, so I know that teaching different year groups is messy but they have 3 weeks to talk to each other, share knowledge, what to do etc.

If they had sent back the whole school at once that would have been carnage but only 2 year groups should be manageable.

@2blue , used to be a teacher I believe. What are the issues based on your experience? 2 years in a school should not be an issue should it? Explain away.
		
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primary which has the most kids!???? Favourite pastime licking each other.
Year 6 I understand .
But if you use all the classrooms for these kids where do all the year 2;3;4;5 go if the SD has not been lifted.
As they are talking 2 weeks later .
It’s a big problem for head teachers.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



View attachment 30604


What does aim to mean? So should I wear or not?
		
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Best stay locked  in at home.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Surely they won't have 30 in a class though? Plenty of classrooms to allow for SD if only 2 years are back to school.

I would expect a headteacher to have plans in place for a re-opening and not need every detail provided by the government.
		
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Yes so would I expect a plan ,but all teachers I know are shocked this has come so early
They want year 2;3;4; and 5 back ASAP two weeks has been touted where do they go then and where do the extra teachers come from.?
Plus teachers are specialists in certain years and maybe might not be able to take year 6 or year 1. Or SEN pupils.
It’s possible some teachers may refuse on health and safety grounds.
If a child vomits what do you do PPE to clean up?
It’s a bit of a mess tbh.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Lots of what's an dif's, nothing I have seen makes me think he could do that, it's the old sly dig rubbish from him. If he wants to have a go, grow some balls, satnd up and amkes some decent valid points instead of these little insinuations and digs, he is making himself  look poor either take a dump on the pot or get off, don't skid the side.
		
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I take it you’ve not seen any of the pmq’s? And right now everyone is saying we should be pulling together not creating division, so again, he couldn’t win.


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## Stuart_C (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm even handed . I've criticised both on specific points, not just one side for the sake of it.

Starmer has a good opportunity to play the statesman through this and really bring Labour back but *trying to play dumb when he is clearly a very smart bloke is not the way to do it.*

I didn't see the Raab interview this morning so I have stayed away from commenting on that.
		
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Playing dumb? From what I've just heard he's rightly picked the holes in the contradictory guidelines that was produced by the government.

Or do you think Starmer should just stroke Johnsons ego and tell him how great of a job he's doing?


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It would back up your point if young kids go back to school!
They are impossible to keep apart.
Hope there is as much room in the classrooms as there is in the HOC.
		
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It's like herding cats.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Playing dumb? From what I've just heard he's rightly picked the holes in the contradictory guidelines that was produced by the government.

Or do you think Starmer should just stroke Johnsons ego and tell him how great of a job he's doing?
		
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Starmer said he wanted to collaborate. However rather than actually suggesting or supporting anything he wants to be able to play smart and with the wisdom of hindsight say "I told you so." and claim the politicians view of the moral high ground


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Starmer said he wanted to collaborate. However rather than actually suggesting or supporting anything he wants to be able to play smart and with the wisdom of hindsight say "I told you so." and claim the politicians view of the moral high ground
		
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So you don’t want him to be honest?
Again, it was the Government/boris poor briefing that caused the question to be asked!


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Was it a picture like this?

View attachment 30601

Click to expand...

I said it was a video shot on the news so I cant show picture of it. Why is that hard to understand.  I'm sure I never saw it tomorrow though.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's like herding cats.
		
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Can’t think of anything worse.
I hate cats!


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can’t think of anything worse.
I hate cats!
		
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Try herding them.


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## Reemul (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I take it you’ve not seen any of the pmq’s? And right now everyone is saying we should be pulling together not creating division, so again, he couldn’t win.
		
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I take it I have, hence my opinion of him...

To add I want a decent Labour Party and leader, this guy ain't it either..


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## funkycoldmedina (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Starmer said he wanted to collaborate. However rather than actually suggesting or supporting anything he wants to be able to play smart and with the wisdom of hindsight say "I told you so." and claim the politicians view of the moral high ground
		
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To collaborate you have to be invited prior to decisions being made. By the sounds of some of his ministers this morning they weren't even fully collaborated with. You either get everyone on board beforehand or be prepared to have holes picked in it if it's not water tight.


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## Stuart_C (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Starmer said he wanted to collaborate. However rather than actually suggesting or supporting anything *he wants to be able to play smart and with the wisdom of hindsight say "I told you so." and claim the politicians view of the moral high ground*

Click to expand...

What a load of rubbish. 

Do you understand the whole point of PMQ's? 

He's not there to suggest ideas, hes there to question him. He made very valid points and referenced the holes in the literature his office released to Starmer and co.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Starmer said he wanted to collaborate. However rather than actually suggesting or supporting anything he wants to be able to play smart and with the wisdom of hindsight say "I told you so." and claim the politicians view of the moral high ground
		
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Boris made a very poor job of communicating the new virus plan yesterday. I dont critise the Government easily but I cant defend them over this, Raab was just as bad this morning. It could have been done so much better with clear and unambiguous information yesterday then the doccument today could have produced the detail.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I said it was a video shot on the news so I cant show picture of it. Why is that hard to understand.  I'm sure I never saw it tomorrow though.
		
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Em, I didn't ask you to show the picture of it.
I was merely attempting to show how easy it is to make a picture look like something it isn't.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			What a load of rubbish.

Do you understand the whole point of PMQ's?

He's not there to suggest ideas, hes there to question him. He made very valid points and referenced the holes in the literature his office released to Starmer and co.
		
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Reasonably questions getting the necessary answers. Perhaps they both can show how PMQs can proceed in a civil manner.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I take it I have, hence my opinion of him...

To add I want a decent Labour Party and leader, this guy ain't it either..
		
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Jury is out for me, a long way to go before a GE and he’s been in post 6 weeks.👍🏻


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Reasonably questions getting the necessary answers. Perhaps they both can show how PMQs can proceed in a civil manner.
		
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So much better without that supercilious Bercow showboating over it.


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes so would I expect a plan ,but all teachers I know are shocked this has come so early
They want year 2;3;4; and 5 back ASAP two weeks has been touted where do they go then and where do the extra teachers come from.?
Plus teachers are specialists in certain years and maybe might not be able to take year 6 or year 1. Or SEN pupils.
It’s possible some teachers may refuse on health and safety grounds.
If a child vomits what do you do PPE to clean up?
It’s a bit of a mess tbh.
		
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Where do you start though? There's no precedent set and we can't hold back education until we're all vaccinated. Phase 1 and assess. 

Not sure vomit is any more of an issue than snot??


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Funny how a golf forum hasn't spotted the anomalie in the bit about exercise where it says you can exercise with one person outside your household.

I have emailed my MP and county for clarification on how this could effect golf after last nights statement.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how a golf forum hasn't spotted the anomalie in the bit about exercise where it says you can exercise with one person outside your household.

I have emailed my MP and county for clarification on how this could effect golf after last nights statement.
		
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You’ve lost me?


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## GreiginFife (May 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how a golf forum hasn't spotted the anomalie in the bit about exercise where it says you can exercise with one person outside your household.

I have emailed my MP and county for clarification on how this could effect golf after last nights statement.
		
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Is that not what this thread is about; https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/2-balls-allowed.105093/ ?


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Is that not what this thread is about; https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/2-balls-allowed.105093/ ?
		
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Missed it. Ta


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’ve lost me?
		
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Apologies see #1580


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			primary which has the most kids!???? Favourite pastime licking each other.
Year 6 I understand .
But if you use all the classrooms for these kids where do all the year 2;3;4;5 go if the SD has not been lifted.
As they are talking 2 weeks later .
It’s a big problem for head teachers.
		
Click to expand...

Presumably there is a reason why they have chosen those years. They will have been chosen with some thought. I can't tell you what that is though 😁

At the beginning those other years will not be there, take one issue at a time. Get those two years working, then worry about the next step.

With regards to returning in full, not sure how that will work unless they start utilising high schools as they are largely empty right now. That would make sense as I believe they will not go back until September. In my town the schools pretty much come under the same trust so that would be easy to arrange. In others it would not take too much to sort out I would hope. That takes us to September, worry about what happens then nearer the time. 

The above is not ideal but we have to get creative and work together right now. Look for solutions not problems (and other such claptrap slogans they tell you on management courses 😂)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Starmer is irrelevant during this, he’s offered his support to boris, stated a couple of times his support for the handling of the crisis.
Seems like he’s damned if does and damned if he doesn’t.
		
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There are no doubt a fair few Labour supporters who would want Starmer to really stick the boot into the government - and I am sure there is a quite a loud voice in his head telling him to do just that.  But Starmer is right to ignore these voices; to provide support as far as he can - but to not shirk from asking probing questions, gentle to start with perhaps, but sufficient to warn Johnson that he is on his case on this and that he expects better on the openness and especially on clarity front.  Can it really be the case that, never mind the devolved governments not being consulted on the change in the key message, neither the CMO not the CSO were consulted?  That beggars belief so much that I will currently dismiss such reports.


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumably there is a reason why they have chosen those years. They will have been chosen with some thought. I can't tell you what that is though 😁

At the beginning those other years will not be there, take one issue at a time. Get those two years working, then worry about the next step.

With regards to returning in full, not sure how that will work unless they start utilising high schools as they are largely empty right now. That would make sense as I believe they will not go back until September. In my town the schools pretty much come under the same trust so that would be easy to arrange. In others it would not take too much to sort out I would hope. That takes us to September, worry about what happens then nearer the time. 

The above is not ideal but we have to get creative and work together right now. Look for solutions not problems (and other such claptrap slogans they tell you on management courses 😂)
		
Click to expand...

I believe year 6 has been chosen to help with the transition to high school in September. In which case your idea of using high school might be a good one as the year 6 kids could go to high schools with some of their primary teachers and get used to their new environment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Playing dumb? From what I've just heard he's rightly picked the holes in the contradictory guidelines that was produced by the government.

Or do you think Starmer should just stroke Johnsons ego and tell him how great of a job he's doing?
		
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How we cringe and laugh when we see Trump castigating and berating journalists in the US Press Briefings for asking nasty questions, and for not praising Trump on all he has done to prevent 2.2m deaths.  We laugh at the absurdity of Trump's words and actions...but he knows that he cannot be questioned directly by the representatives of the US electorate - and so stops doing the briefings.  Thank goodness we have the government structure we have, one in which the head of the government can be questioned directly, forcefully and repeatedly by our representatives - and if that questioning causes difficulties for the PM then so be it.  Look at the alternative across the pond.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I said it was a video shot on the news so I cant show picture of it. Why is that hard to understand.  I'm sure I never saw it tomorrow though.
		
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BBC at 17:55 also showing almost empty buses and sparse tube stations - take your pick.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



View attachment 30604


What does aim to mean? So should I wear or not?
		
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To me it is advice- not an order- that if you use public transport and you are able to, it is the government *advice *that you wear a face covering. If you do not you will not be prevented from using public transport, you will merely be seen as not taking the advice. That may not be popular, but there you go, your decision.
What do you think . That the advice isn't clear 🙄or
                               there should be an order saying you must wear a face covering.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Starmer said he wanted to collaborate. However rather than actually suggesting or supporting anything he wants to be able to play smart and with the wisdom of hindsight say "I told you so." and claim the politicians view of the moral high ground
		
Click to expand...

It is critically important at this time when very important decisions are having to be made that we are clear that the government has understood fully the lessons to be learned from what has happened since the turn of the year.  We have to _*know *_they have learned these lessons so that we know *why *the government might have to turn to those in any town, region or the country as a whole that - for instance - an IMMEDIATE lockdown is being applied, because back in February...

There is no point in waiting until we are through this current pandemic to explain what was learned from mistakes made at the outset.  Mistakes can be repeated or an electorate might be less compliant next time as we have been this first time.  Just be honest.


----------



## Kellfire (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have you ever heard it deployed to insult a man?
		
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Let’s flip that - is being called the b word that means illegitimate child sexist? That’s rarely used to insult a woman.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Boris made a very poor job of communicating the new virus plan yesterday. I dont critise the Government easily but I cant defend them over this, Raab was just as bad this morning. It could have been done so much better with clear and unambiguous information yesterday then the doccument today could have produced the detail.
		
Click to expand...

Except Starmer had a briefing paper that gave him an heads up and all MP's were given notices/papers that said what further documents were being released today, tomorrow and Wednesday. Consequently PMQs was mostly about MPs making speeches; the best example was Blackford SNP, whose asked partisan rhetorical questions in his speech.


----------



## Hobbit (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			To me it is advice- not an order- that if you use public transport and you are able to, it is the government *advice *that you wear a face covering. If you do not you will not be prevented from using public transport, you will merely be seen as not taking the advice. That may not be popular, but there you go, your decision.
What do you think . That the advice isn't clear 🙄or
                               there should be an order saying you must wear a face covering.
		
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Just a quick thought on that one. If it was stated “you must,” would that require a law to be passed by Parliament?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Ah - got some clarity there from a reporter on meeting with others form outside of my household.

I can walk to the park with my wife.  My daughter can walk to the park with Luke - her b/friend who she shares a flat with.  We two couples can close on each other.  when 2m apart I say hi to my daughter; my wife says hi to Luke.  I walk off chatting with Luke whilst my wife chats with my daughter.  We cannot stay together as a socially distanced group of four. Sorted.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'll take that as a "no". There is an equivalent (in usage although not literal meaning) to that, which also starts with a "b".

Look I politely asked someone not to use an insult that I considered sexist. Which has triggered a few of you to argue with me and one to personally abuse me. I regret it. Which, I suspect, is what you wanted. Can we drop it now?
		
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Totally agree Karen, sad people.


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## sunshine (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I would seem you haven't heard (or understood) what they were saying then. And your usage of "witch" is pure sexism, please stop that.
		
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Oh dear, another witch hunt.

I think men can be victims of a witch hunt. I believe you can have a non-binary / gender fluid witch hunt too. So where does that leave you?


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## DanFST (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Look I politely asked someone not to use an insult that I considered sexist. Which has triggered a few of you to argue with me and one to personally abuse me. I regret it. Which, I suspect, is what you wanted. Can we drop it now?
		
Click to expand...

As the Original poster, if you'd said that straight away (whilst I don't agree with you) I'd have happily apologised. I'm not sexist, it's not sexist, it wasn't intended to be in anyway, just an insult.

I'll try to not use it on here again, don't want to make anyone uncomfortable at all.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Oh dear, another witch hunt.

I think men can be victims of a witch hunt. I believe you can have a non-binary / gender fluid witch hunt too. So where does that leave you?
		
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I think that is referring to the actual act of basically mob rule used against witches when little proof was needed.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - got some clarity there from a reporter on meeting with others form outside of my household.

I can walk to the park with my wife.  My daughter can walk to the park with Luke - her b/friend who she shares a flat with.  We two couples can close on each other.  when 2m apart I say hi to my daughter; my wife says hi to Luke.  I walk off chatting with Luke whilst my wife chats with my daughter.  We cannot stay together as a socially distanced group of four. Sorted.
		
Click to expand...

You haven't made it clear but when you walk off with Luke, because he is from a different household you  have to be 2 m apart, yes?
And, likewise,your wife can walk with your daughter, but 2m apart.

Agree?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2020)

How refreshing to see the BBC UK 6 o'clock news actually highlighting the England matter only issues.
It really bugged me when recently great swathes of their news time was given over to English matters only without them acknowledging that.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Where do you start though? There's no precedent set and we can't hold back education until we're all vaccinated. Phase 1 and assess.

Not sure vomit is any more of an issue than snot??
		
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Yes it’s when they start licking you that’s a problem!
Just think it’s to early.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You haven't made it clear but when you walk off with Luke, because he is from a different household you  have to be 2 m apart, yes?
And, likewise,your wife can walk with your daughter, but 2m apart.

Agree?
		
Click to expand...

Yes indeed. Though if our daughter is the additional contact for both me and my wife we can both meet up with her in the park.  If Luke comes with her then he has to head off somewhere by himself or maybe meet with his folks apart and quite separate from us. Sorted.


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Seriously?
		
Click to expand...

no it wasn’t serious.
Why bring it up if you now want to forget it?


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes indeed. Though if our daughter is the additional contact for both me and my wife we can both meet up with her in the park.  If Luke comes with her then he has to head off somewhere by himself or maybe meet with his folks apart and quite separate from us. Sorted.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it only one person from a household that can meet up with one person from another household? So you *OR* your wife could meet your daughter but not both of you? And that is the only contact that you, your wife, your daughter or her boyfriend can have. So your daughter's boyfriend couldn't separately go and meet with one of his parents. At least that was my understanding of the rules.

EDIT - 
This is from the .govuk website.....

*"Can I meet my friends and family in the park?*
You can meet one other person from outside your household if you are outdoors. Public gatherings of more than 2 people from different households are prohibited in law. There are no limits on gatherings in the park with members of your household."

That to me suggests that the two of you can't meet your daughter as that would be a group of 3 people not from the same household.


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes it’s when they start licking you that’s a problem!
Just think it’s to early.
		
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It's a tough call for sure. I'd thought it best just to wait until September. To some extent it could be a trial to see if full school attendance will be possible then?

As for licking - kids are just like dogs


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## clubchamp98 (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			As I said, I regret mentioning it due to the ensuing pile on.
		
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I did post a later post saying “ the senes of humour seems to have disappeared here lately”
If it’s what you belive stick to your guns , it takes all kinds..


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## Blue in Munich (May 11, 2020)

Hell's teeth, he's embarrassing.  To say that Sturgeon is a better speaker is hardly a compliment, the bar is that low.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 11, 2020)

To make it crystal clear

Calling someone or referring to someone as a witch is completely out of order and sanctions will be taken against anyone using that term.

Other terms like witch-hunt are ok if used in context

End of discussion, let’s move on please


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## patricks148 (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've been at work all day and came back to a series of alerts of people kicking me on a thread that had grown by about ten pages since I last saw it. So you'll just have to forgive me if I missed some nuance somewhere.
		
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what with this place being full of Homophobic, sexist, racist right wing bully boys... shirley not


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## Blue in Munich (May 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			If it was just 1 of the 3 smaller nations rejecting No10 ;then you could have a point about mischief making but when all 3 reject it, each with separate CMOs and independent scientific advisors, then that looks based solely on health judgement. BJ didn't consult in advance with other nations, lied about that.
*Health is a devolved issue, why is that hard to grasp, so each nation can do what it sees fit*, Boris is the one making the changes for England, not the 3 devolved govts, they have stuck firmly to No 10s original lockdown rules for the past 7 weeks, no boat rocked there, and wish to stick with that stay home message for longer. Lives are at stake and leaders carry that heavy burden, use of the word catastrophic would not be said lightly.
It is confusing people, perhaps some clarity will come tomorrow in Commons which begs the question why not wait until Monday to do the TV message, once MPs had asked PM some questions first? Boris ignoring parliament again?
		
Click to expand...

Can you please explain it to Sir Keir Starmer then, as he doesn't understand why different parts of the UK are on different paths. 

(The emoji is aimed at Starmer, not yourself, for avoidance of doubt )


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## harpo_72 (May 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what with this place being full of Homophobic, sexist, racist right wing bully boys... shirley not 

Click to expand...

Don’t get shirley started!


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			And yet again we decide that the villain here is the leader of the opposition who has had literally no input or influence whatsoever to the current situation.
		
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Bump


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## patricks148 (May 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Bump
		
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are you suprised dear boy


----------



## patricks148 (May 11, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Don’t get shirley started!
		
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you are not doing it right, you are supposed to say, "Don't call me Shirley"


----------



## harpo_72 (May 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Bump
		
Click to expand...

And that is why you have to give clear messages because the public is so thick they blame the wrong person


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Other terms like witch-hunt are ok if used in context
		
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Talking of which https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52617895

It appears that some disagree with @Doon frae Troon


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			To make it crystal clear

Calling someone or referring to someone as a witch is completely out of order and sanctions will be taken against anyone using that term.

Other terms like witch-hunt are ok if used in context

End of discussion, let’s move on please
		
Click to expand...

Not even my MIL?

I'll get me broom 😉


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			primary which has the most kids!???? Favourite pastime licking each other.
Year 6 I understand .
But if you use all the classrooms for these kids where do all the year 2;3;4;5 go if the SD has not been lifted.
As they are talking 2 weeks later .
It’s a big problem for head teachers.
		
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Just read a piece about schools returning and apparently we are following pretty closely what Denmark have done. For more details about what is likely to happen with schools in this country we can see how they have done it. Having a template to work from, that is proving successful so far, is more than useful. Hopefully that will help our schools and the staff.


----------



## Old Skier (May 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			We all know this but still very depressing to see it... what might have been.
		
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British press hounded the Government over this in England yet little said about what's happening in Scotland.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2020)

Roll on Wednesday evening


----------



## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2020)




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## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just read a piece about schools returning and apparently we are following pretty closely what Denmark have done. For more details about what is likely to happen with schools in this country we can see how they have done it. Having a template to work from, that is proving successful so far, is more than useful. Hopefully that will help our schools and the staff.
		
Click to expand...

Full guidance here https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-measures-in-education-and-childcare-settings


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## pauljames87 (May 11, 2020)

Txt from wife. She works in a school that's shut 

Her mum's is open 

Yeah mums schools is gonna do 10 kids a class for reception year 1 and 6 if they have to go back 
So instead of 9 classes it’ll be 27classes and no set learning more a child care base like it is not as it won’t be there teachers


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## sunshine (May 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			To make it crystal clear

Calling someone or referring to someone as a witch is completely out of order and sanctions will be taken against anyone using that term.

Other terms like witch-hunt are ok if used in context

End of discussion, let’s move on please
		
Click to expand...

Just for clarification, what are you wearing in your avatar photo? You're not dressed as a witch by any chance?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 12, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Just for clarification, what are you wearing in your avatar photo? You're not dressed as a witch by any chance? 

Click to expand...

Darth Fragger, thought it was obvious 👍


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## Pathetic Shark (May 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Darth Fragger, thought it was obvious 👍
		
Click to expand...

Always two there are.  Never more.  Never less.  A master and an apprentice.  But which is the master and which is the apprentice?


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## chrisd (May 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Darth Fragger, thought it was obvious 👍
		
Click to expand...

Close - I always assumed it was Daft Fragger 🤔


----------



## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Close - I always assumed it was Daft Fragger 🤔
		
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With his diet I thought it was Drafty Fragger.


----------



## Slab (May 12, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Always two there are.  Never more.  Never less.  A master and an apprentice.  But which is the master and which is the apprentice?
		
Click to expand...

Following on, I did wonder if I should post this in this thread but half the posts are a joke anyway so here goes:


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## DRW (May 12, 2020)

Clusters reappearing in Wuhan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-wuhan-idUSKBN22N24F

How are they going to test 11million in 10 days, that is some processing from get it from the people,  to performing the actual lab test.

Come on UK up your game.


----------



## Wolf (May 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			Clusters reappearing in Wuhan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-wuhan-idUSKBN22N24F

How are they going to test *11million in 10 days, *that is some processing from get it from the people,  to performing the actual lab test.

Come on UK up your game.
		
Click to expand...

Its China they won't test 11m in 10 days but they may tell us that they did 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## pendodave (May 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			Clusters reappearing in Wuhan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-wuhan-idUSKBN22N24F

How are they going to test 11million in 10 days, that is some processing from get it from the people,  to performing the actual lab test.

Come on UK up your game.
		
Click to expand...

Don't have an opinion either way on the testing, but if a population 1/6 the size of the UK is put under house arrest for 6 weeks (or whatever it was) and they still can't get rid of it,  then I wonder what plan B is.


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## clubchamp98 (May 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Txt from wife. She works in a school that's shut

Her mum's is open

Yeah mums schools is gonna do 10 kids a class for reception year 1 and 6 if they have to go back
So instead of 9 classes it’ll be 27classes and no set learning more a child care base like it is not as it won’t be there teachers
		
Click to expand...

Yes so they need three times the classrooms and teachers.
That’s ok while it’s just two years in school.
But it’s fitting year 2/3/4/5 in where are they going to go.
I think they will not go back any time soon.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2020)

British Common Sense,
Here is the Wee Dug to give you his take on it.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

I get why we must get back to work if we can; I get why we must avoid using public transport at the moment if at all possible; I get why we wouldn't want groups to be gathering in parks; I get why it is appropriate for some to be able to drive a short distance to somewhere they can exercise relative 'safely'.  I get all that.  And they all work fine for me - as I get them each individually, and I am fortunate that living my life as I do and where I do they don't clash.  However where I can see confusion for some is around trying to rationalise the science that is behind each of them - as they can be contradictory.

A lady who does childminding can do that for a child not her own, but cannot visit a grandchild who lives in a separate house from her?  Workers can congregate at work in groups (size unlimited?) whilst observing social distancing requirements, but can't meet up with parents or family in the local park?  I can drive as far as I want to exercise but can't if I want to just meet a friend or relative?  I can drive to a beauty spot for exercise but when I get there if it is busy and social distancing is likely to be difficult then I must not stay?  And when I am visiting a beauty spot and toilets are not open - then what?  We have a couple of builders working on the outside of the house at the moment.  They are keeping separate.  And we can stop and talk with them both.  But we can't stop and talk with my daughter and her b/fried unless he is my contact and my daughter is my wife's.  Maybe.

I do not have an issue with any of these examples (and there are a multitude more). We are able to live within the guidelines and constraints and we are not _looking _to push any boundaries. Indeed my wife has this morning been asked by a closest friend if she wants to go for a walk on Friday, my wife would probably rather not in the context of coronavirus, although she'd dearly love to walk and talk with her close friend.  She has not yet decided what to do.  But that's just us.  We are very fortunate.

However, if I look to find and understand the science underpinning what has now been advised in the examples being applied consistently I do struggle.  And for those for whom what we have been advised raises conflicts I can see where real confusion on what to do comes.

And confusion raises fear.  And in fear we often either do nothing, or do irrational things.

The government has told us that not a lot has changed (though asking us to go to work if we can is for many a massive change and challenge) - and so I feel that if nothing much has changed, then there really was no need to change the headline message - a message that we have come to know and understand.


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## Slab (May 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			British Common Sense,
Here is the Wee Dug to give you his take on it.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

Click to expand...

He doesn't seem to have any take on the virus

Maybe just the way I read the opening paragraphs but I think that fella might have a political bias in his blog (if not pro-something he’s definitely anti-conservative) It takes quite an edge off the chances of him saying anything of value as regards the virus

Its like a vegetarian writing an objective blog about sausages or a Rangers fan writing about Celtic, there's really nowt of value going to be said


----------



## Foxholer (May 12, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Close - I always assumed it was Daft Fragger 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Why would he have needed the outfit and makeup in that case?


----------



## PhilTheFragger (May 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Why would he have needed the outfit and makeup in that case? 

Click to expand...

And this relates to the thread somehow? 
Cmon guys, back on track now
Darth Fragger has spoken 😂😎


----------



## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get why we must get back to work if we can; I get why we must avoid using public transport at the moment if at all possible; I get why we wouldn't want groups to be gathering in parks; I get why it is appropriate for some to be able to drive a short distance to somewhere they can exercise relative 'safely'.  I get all that.  And they all work fine for me - as I get them each individually, and I am fortunate that living my life as I do and where I do they don't clash.  However where I can see confusion for some is around trying to rationalise the science that is behind each of them - as they can be contradictory.

A lady who does childminding can do that for a child not her own, but cannot visit a grandchild who lives in a separate house from her?  Workers can congregate at work in groups (size unlimited?) whilst observing social distancing requirements, but can't meet up with parents or family in the local park?  I can drive as far as I want to exercise but can't if I want to just meet a friend or relative?  I can drive to a beauty spot for exercise but when I get there if it is busy and social distancing is likely to be difficult then I must not stay?  And when I am visiting a beauty spot and toilets are not open - then what?  We have a couple of builders working on the outside of the house at the moment.  They are keeping separate.  And we can stop and talk with them both.  But we can't stop and talk with my daughter and her b/fried unless he is my contact and my daughter is my wife's.  Maybe.

I do not have an issue with any of these examples (and there are a multitude more). We are able to live within the guidelines and constraints and we are not _looking _to push any boundaries. Indeed my wife has this morning been asked by a closest friend if she wants to go for a walk on Friday, my wife would probably rather not in the context of coronavirus, although she'd dearly love to walk and talk with her close friend.  She has not yet decided what to do.  But that's just us.  We are very fortunate.

However, if I look to find and understand the science underpinning what has now been advised in the examples being applied consistently I do struggle.  And for those for whom what we have been advised raises conflicts I can see where real confusion on what to do comes.

And confusion raises fear.  And in fear we often either do nothing, or do irrational things.

The government has told us that not a lot has changed (though asking us to go to work if we can is for many a massive change and challenge) - and so I feel that if nothing much has changed, then there really was no need to change the headline message - a message that we have come to know and understand.
		
Click to expand...

This comes over to me as a post by someone with too much time on their hands so overthinking everything.  Also if you're Wife goes for a walk with her Friend isnt she breaking the law 🤔


----------



## Foxholer (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			This comes over to me as a post by someone with too much time on their hands so overthinking everything. ...
		
Click to expand...

It does highlight some 'illogicalities' though!


SocketRocket said:



			... Also if you're Wife goes for a walk with her Friend isnt she breaking the law 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that the same as (or a least equivalent to) a (non-familial) 2-ball playing a round of golf?  It would be wrong, imo, if one was illegal and the other was not!


----------



## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It does highlight some 'illogicalities' though!

Isn't that the same as (or a least equivalent to) a (non-familial) 2-ball playing a round of golf?  It would be wrong, imo, if one was illegal and the other was not!
		
Click to expand...

It only highlights ilogicalalities if you are looking for them, it's like saying I can shop in a supermarket but why not in a clothes shop.

One has been authorised and one hasn't. You can meet up with another person in a park for example as long as you stay 2 meters apart, theres been nothing said about taking a walk together.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			This comes over to me as a post by someone with too much time on their hands so overthinking everything.  Also if you're Wife goes for a walk with her Friend isnt she breaking the law 🤔
		
Click to expand...

It's simply suggesting why some find the government message and 'directives' confusing and difficult as I hear quite a lot from folks saying the messaging is clear.  We know what my Mrs wants to do is not breaking a 'law'.  However just mentioning that as we will be taking a cautious approach to getting out and about with others even when allowed.


----------



## drdel (May 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It does highlight some 'illogicalities' though!

Isn't that the same as (or a least equivalent to) a (non-familial) 2-ball playing a round of golf?  It would be wrong, imo, if one was illegal and the other was not!
		
Click to expand...

For goodness sake this is a step change on the way to a bit of normality for just 2 weeks where the paramount underpinning message is SD with a few exceptions. If the trends continue downwards greater freedoms will evolve - what's so hard to understand? Why have we turned into infants that need to be kept on Mummy's reins to keep us out of trouble?


----------



## IanM (May 12, 2020)

I am hearing that a climb down from the Welsh FM on golf is imminent.   Social media campaign since Sunday and a barrage of emails seems to be getting through.

I wonder what his mate Nic will say... 

There are only 70 odd million people in the UK, Boris should have phoned everyone to explain the specifics.


----------



## Reemul (May 12, 2020)

My brother-in-law lives about a mile away, I can call him up and from tomorrow we can go up our golf club and play a round of golf for 4 hours as long as we stay 2m away from each other but apparently I cannot sit in his garden with him for 30 mins sitting 2m+ away from each other.


----------



## Foxholer (May 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			For goodness sake this is a step change on the way to a bit of normality for just 2 weeks where the paramount underpinning message is SD with a few exceptions. If the trends continue downwards greater freedoms will evolve - what's so hard to understand? Why have we turned into infants that need to be kept on Mummy's reins to keep us out of trouble?
		
Click to expand...

No problem with the concept, simply the explicit nature of what is/is not allowed!

Your last sentence simply doesn't belong in this debate - except if applied to the inconsistent message as highlighted by SILH (and Reemul). SD is certainly still the fundamental message!


----------



## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get why we must get back to work if we can; I get why we must avoid using public transport at the moment if at all possible; I get why we wouldn't want groups to be gathering in parks; I get why it is appropriate for some to be able to drive a short distance to somewhere they can exercise relative 'safely'.  I get all that.  And they all work fine for me - as I get them each individually, and I am fortunate that living my life as I do and where I do they don't clash.  However where I can see confusion for some is around trying to rationalise the science that is behind each of them - as they can be contradictory.

A lady who does childminding can do that for a child not her own, but cannot visit a grandchild who lives in a separate house from her?  Workers can congregate at work in groups (size unlimited?) whilst observing social distancing requirements, but can't meet up with parents or family in the local park?  I can drive as far as I want to exercise but can't if I want to just meet a friend or relative?  I can drive to a beauty spot for exercise but when I get there if it is busy and social distancing is likely to be difficult then I must not stay?  And when I am visiting a beauty spot and toilets are not open - then what?  We have a couple of builders working on the outside of the house at the moment.  They are keeping separate.  And we can stop and talk with them both.  But we can't stop and talk with my daughter and her b/fried unless he is my contact and my daughter is my wife's.  Maybe.

I do not have an issue with any of these examples (and there are a multitude more). We are able to live within the guidelines and constraints and we are not _looking _to push any boundaries. Indeed my wife has this morning been asked by a closest friend if she wants to go for a walk on Friday, my wife would probably rather not in the context of coronavirus, although she'd dearly love to walk and talk with her close friend.  She has not yet decided what to do.  But that's just us.  We are very fortunate.

However, if I look to find and understand the science underpinning what has now been advised in the examples being applied consistently I do struggle.  And for those for whom what we have been advised raises conflicts I can see where real confusion on what to do comes.

And confusion raises fear.  And in fear we often either do nothing, or do irrational things.

The government has told us that not a lot has changed (though asking us to go to work if we can is for many a massive change and challenge) - and so I feel that if nothing much has changed, then there really was no need to change the headline message - a message that we have come to know and understand.
		
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I think you're over complicating it. If someone says the rule is X, why do you need to know that a/3+7L(4a-5b)/27 = X? At the end of the day, all you need to know is X.

Do you know all the ins and outs of Pi? Do you _*need*_ to know all the ins and outs of Pi? No, you just worked with the Pi you'd been given.

Seriously, you need to get out more Just think about the stress you're giving yourself if you're spending forever trying to work the ins and outs of X. Accept it for what it is and get on with life, don't waste it.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 12, 2020)

Sounds like the furlough scheme is being extended to October, obviously more details to emerge and it might be limited to certain jobs, but welcome news


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## Imurg (May 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Sounds like the furlough scheme is being extended to October, obviously more details to emerge and it might be limited to certain jobs, but welcome news
		
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Let's hope they don't forget the self employed or those who moved jobs at the wrong time.....


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Reemul said:



			My brother-in-law lives about a mile away, I can call him up and from tomorrow we can go up our golf club and play a round of golf for 4 hours as long as we stay 2m away from each other but apparently I cannot sit in his garden with him for 30 mins sitting 2m+ away from each other.
		
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Maybe you should consider the concession to play golf as better than nothing.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Sounds like the furlough scheme is being extended to October, obviously more details to emerge and it might be limited to certain jobs, but welcome news
		
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60% of salary though. 
I would imagine that will cause quite a bit of hardship and perhaps force folk back to work when they do not feel safe.


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## Wolf (May 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			60% of salary though.
I would imagine that will cause quite a bit of hardship and perhaps force folk back to work when they do not feel safe.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52634759

Nope not the mythical 60% social media and the papers have been pushing to tarnish the government or idea. But confirmed the 80% not just thr BBC but all other outlets now confirmed.


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## AmandaJR (May 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			60% of salary though.
I would imagine that will cause quite a bit of hardship and perhaps force folk back to work when they do not feel safe.
		
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60%?

_The UK scheme to pay wages of workers on leave because of coronavirus will be extended to October, Chancellor Rishi Sunak said.

Mr Sunak confirmed that employees will continue to receive *80%* of their monthly wages up to £2,500.

But he said the government will ask companies to "start sharing" the cost of the scheme from August._


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## pauljames87 (May 12, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes so they need three times the classrooms and teachers.
That’s ok while it’s just two years in school.
But it’s fitting year 2/3/4/5 in where are they going to go.
I think they will not go back any time soon.
		
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Those 4 groups think will be September



PhilTheFragger said:



			Sounds like the furlough scheme is being extended to October, obviously more details to emerge and it might be limited to certain jobs, but welcome news
		
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I really am liking our new Chancellor. No matter what people's views blue red yellow green etc no matter what could have been done sooner blah blah he has really stepped in and furlough (in the main I appreciate some don't get it) is a massive success. Truly helping people through a crisis.

It does make me wonder though. Our old Chancellor, Sajid Javid, was told he could stay on as chancellor if he sacked all of his advises and used Dominic Cummings picks for advisers.. he very commendably stepped down. That caused outrage at the time however our new chancellor .. it's assumed he had to use these people picked .. which based on his performance so far maybe wasnt a bad thing...


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## pauljames87 (May 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			60%?

_The UK scheme to pay wages of workers on leave because of coronavirus will be extended to October, Chancellor Rishi Sunak said.

Mr Sunak confirmed that employees will continue to receive *80%* of their monthly wages up to £2,500.

But he said the government will ask companies to "start sharing" the cost of the scheme from August._

Click to expand...

I think sharing will be if people go back part time the wages will still be capped at 80% but anything they do for employer they will have to pay and the gov top up the rest 

I know we have furlough any department not being used right now (upgrades for example) but are topping up their wage to 100% we also furlough long term sick and shielders


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## rosecott (May 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			60% of salary though.
I would imagine that will cause quite a bit of hardship and perhaps force folk back to work when they do not feel safe.
		
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Found nothing to complain about? Just make it up.


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## IanM (May 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52634759

Nope not the mythical 60% social media and the papers have been pushing to tarnish the government or idea. But confirmed the 80% not just thr BBC but all other outlets now confirmed.
		
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But the opposition offence at the outrageous reduction got copious airtime this morning.  Have a guess when this was signed off in the Treasury?




Doon frae Troon said:



			60% of salary though.
I would imagine that will cause quite a bit of hardship and perhaps force folk back to work when they do not feel safe.
		
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Well Doon bought it! 




IanM said:



			I am hearing that a climb down from the Welsh FM on golf is imminent.   Social media campaign since Sunday and a barrage of emails seems to be getting through
		
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I've had another text about this and more news outlets are picking up the story.


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## AmandaJR (May 12, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Found nothing to complain about? Just make it up.
		
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Brilliant


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## Wolf (May 12, 2020)

IanM said:



			But the opposition offence at the outrageous reduction got copious airtime this morning.  Have a guess when this was signed off in the Treasury?




Well Doon bought it! 




I've had another text about this and more news outlets are picking up the story.
		
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People love to buy into negative stories and take pot shots without full facts, this place is currently full of such opinion..


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## Swinglowandslow (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			This comes over to me as a post by someone with too much time on their hands so overthinking everything.  Also if you're Wife goes for a walk with her Friend isnt she breaking the law 🤔
		
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No the wife is not breaking the law. Government fAQS 1.4. You can meet up with one other person not from your household outdoors (maintaining SD )
So, you could go for a walk with a mate.
But you cannot visit a person at another household.
Someone said why is me seeing a mate in his garden(  outdoors?) any different from 1.4 above.
I venture to suggest that such a visit would not be confined to standing 2 metres apart in the garden. 
Visitors would sit on a seat, thus touching a hard surface possibly, have a cup of tea or a beer. Etc  So, visitors could get something passed to them and/or from the householder.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No the wife is not breaking the law. Government fAQS 1.4. You can meet up with one other person not from your household outdoors (maintaining SD )
So, you could go for a walk with a mate.
But you cannot visit a person at another household.
Someone said why is me seeing a mate in his garden(  outdoors?) any different from 1.4 above.
I venture to suggest that such a visit would not be confined to standing 2 metres apart in the garden.
Visitors would sit on a seat, thus touching a hard surface possibly, have a cup of tea or a beer. Etc  So, visitors could get something passed to them and/or from the householder.
		
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It was further explained on JVine R2 show today. With too many houses you would walk through the house to get to the garden, you may have a drink there, natural to offer, use the toilet. If it rains you would all move inside. Keeping the chat outside reduces the impact of the virus transmitting, keeping it in a public place means people are less likely to break the rules, less 'no one can see so just do it' moments. 

It is a blunt instrument, it obviously would be fine in many gardens, but they can not deal with every eventuality. There are clearly big holes in what they are asking but I can see why they are trying not to over complicate the rules and this will inevitably means aspects which are illogical in parts.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It was further explained on JVine R2 show today. With too many houses you would walk through the house to get to the garden, you may have a drink there, natural to offer, use the toilet. If it rains you would all move inside. Keeping the chat outside reduces the impact of the virus transmitting, keeping it in a public place means people are less likely to break the rules, less 'no one can see so just do it' moments.

It is a blunt instrument, it obviously would be fine in many gardens, but they can not deal with every eventuality. There are clearly big holes in what they are asking but I can see why they are trying not to over complicate the rules and this will inevitably means aspects which are illogical in parts.
		
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I would imagine toilets are a problem area. I notice my golf club is opening the Pro Shop for one person at a time, not allowing any changing facilities but did say the locker room is open for the toilets.


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## Slab (May 12, 2020)

I get that Piers Morgan’s combative style wins him fans (& nonfans) but when interviewee availability among politicians is impacted and the story becomes about him & his style rather than the virus, doesn’t it tell his bosses he’s gone a bit off the rails. That he's basically no longer effective as a journalist ?


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## spongebob59 (May 12, 2020)

I emailed the club this morning regarding access to the  toilets/lockers and they said they would be available but require a memeber of staff to let you in.
They're saying the staff will be responsible for clean down after thier use so trying to limit this.


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## IanM (May 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			People love to buy into negative stories and take pot shots without full facts, this place is currently full of such opinion..
		
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Or stories that fit their agenda... I know, I am hugely guilty of this!   (and I don't mean to single Doon out for it)


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

Slab said:



			I get that Piers Morgan’s combative style wins him fans (& nonfans) but when interviewee availability among politicians is impacted and the story becomes about him & his style rather than the virus, doesn’t it tell his bosses he’s gone a bit off the rails. That he's basically no longer effective as a journalist ?
		
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There's been a number of politicians that have refused to go on his programme. Can't say I blame them. He's just not interested in their answers if they don't 100% conform with his view of what they should be. I do hope that he gets binned soon as he is, quite literally, a turn off.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I emailed the club this morning regarding access to the  toilets/lockers and they said they would be available but require a memeber of staff to let you in.
They're saying the staff will be responsible for clean down after thier use so trying to limit this.
		
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Conjures up an image of the Club Assistant Pro in a diver's suit hosing down after you 😀


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## drdel (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Conjures up an image of the Club Assistant Pro in a diver's suit hosing down after you 😀
		
Click to expand...

Gender fluid.


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## Jamesbrown (May 12, 2020)

Extending furlough has bought some blue votes next time round I’ll bet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think you're over complicating it. If someone says the rule is X, why do you need to know that a/3+7L(4a-5b)/27 = X? At the end of the day, all you need to know is X.

Do you know all the ins and outs of Pi? Do you _*need*_ to know all the ins and outs of Pi? No, you just worked with the Pi you'd been given.

Seriously, you need to get out more Just think about the stress you're giving yourself if you're spending forever trying to work the ins and outs of X. Accept it for what it is and get on with life, don't waste it.
		
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Simply saying that if you are going to provide guidance such as that provided then, you have to have some basic consistency across the guidance.  

The government can absolutely not cover ALL scenarios, and is relying on us to use good old British Common Sense (as opposed to any other sort  ), but to do that you really need to be able to interpolate and extrapolate for your scenario using the 'data points' the government has provided.  And that isn't that easy as it would appear that different basic conditions/assumptions apply to some of the scenarios given.  

Previously _Stay at Home_ with one exercise and one essential shop a day, was the absolute and very easy to understand bottom line, and it was easy to see when you strayed from that these basics.  The government is now asking individuals to basically work some things out themselves.  And for some and for some scenarios like going back to work - that is just not easy to do.

Anyway...I believe Sunak has extended the furlough scheme until the end of October - this is very good news for us (wife is furloughed) and for our son (work is nil until performing arts venues reopen in some way) - and so top marks for Sunak on understanding the difficulties faced by many - especially the poorer of society who generally having nothing at all saved for a rainy day to fall back on.


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## IanM (May 12, 2020)

............and more balanced piece I have yet to read...doffs hat

Meanwhile in Wales, the bloke in the poorly fitting grey suit refused to allow golf and fishing but climbed down withing 72 hours.    Was that as he got lots of emails and the FB Campaign, or had Nicola released her grip on the front of his trews?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2020)

IanM said:



			Or stories that fit their agenda... I know, I am hugely guilty of this!   (and I don't mean to single Doon out for it)
		
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In my defence it was pretty well broadcast on many news outlets......perhaps they were testing the water.


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## Imurg (May 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In my defence it was pretty well broadcast on many news outlets......perhaps they were testing the water.
		
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Just shows you cant believe everything you read or hear....


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In my defence it was pretty well broadcast on many news outlets......perhaps they were testing the water.
		
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Maybe it was a feeling you had in your water..


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Extending furlough has bought some blue votes next time round I’ll bet.
		
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Right then! If he does something right hes only doing it to attract votes, if he does it wrong hes a waste of space. What does he have to do to get your approval?


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## spongebob59 (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Conjures up an image of the Club Assistant Pro in a diver's suit hosing down after you 😀
		
Click to expand...

No need, plenty of tress on the course and I have my own storage system


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## Imurg (May 12, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			No need, plenty of tress on the course and I have my own storage system 

Click to expand...

You've got one of those clubs you pee into?
Dude


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Gender fluid.
		
Click to expand...

Pardon?


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			You've got one of those clubs you pee into?
Dude

Click to expand...

What, through the lettertbox!


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## Imurg (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What, through the lettertbox!
		
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Stadium Pal...check it out


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2020)

Reemul said:



			My brother-in-law lives about a mile away, I can call him up and from tomorrow we can go up our golf club and play a round of golf for 4 hours as long as we stay 2m away from each other but apparently I cannot sit in his garden with him for 30 mins sitting 2m+ away from each other.
		
Click to expand...

If you can see what "sitting in the garden" implications are then you won't understand the message. Think about what normally happens when you visit, sitting in chairs, or are you taking your own, tea/coffe, biscuits and cake, going to the loo. Any number of ways to pass on, get any number of nastiness.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2020)

IanM said:



			I am hearing that a climb down from the Welsh FM on golf is imminent.   Social media campaign since Sunday and a barrage of emails seems to be getting through.

I wonder what his mate Nic will say...

There are only 70 odd million people in the UK, Boris should have phoned everyone to explain the specifics. 

Click to expand...

Stay at home, play golf. Not at all confusing.


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## Jamesbrown (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Right then! If he does something right hes only doing it to attract votes, if he does it wrong hes a waste of space. What does he have to do to get you're approval?
		
Click to expand...

He had my approval when I voted for him, I just don’t approve of his handling of this virus nor the furlough extension. He’d get my approval if he was to lockdown the vulnerable groups and let the rest of society get on with it, thus not increasing my tax payments which I guess will rise to pay for the governments wage bill.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Simply saying that if you are going to provide guidance such as that provided then, you have to have some basic consistency across the guidance. 

The government can absolutely not cover ALL scenarios, and is relying on us to use good old British Common Sense (as opposed to any other sort  ), but to do that you really need to be able to interpolate and extrapolate for your scenario using the 'data points' the government has provided.  And that isn't that easy as it would appear that different basic conditions/assumptions apply to some of the scenarios given. 

Previously _Stay at Home_ with one exercise and one essential shop a day, was the absolute and very easy to understand bottom line, and it was easy to see when you strayed from that these basics.  The government is now asking individuals to basically work some things out themselves.  And for some and for some scenarios like going back to work - that is just not easy to do.

Anyway...I believe Sunak has extended the furlough scheme until the end of October - this is very good news for us (wife is furloughed) and for our son (work is nil until performing arts venues reopen in some way) - and so top marks for Sunak on understanding the difficulties faced by many - especially the poorer of society who generally having nothing at all saved for a rainy day to fall back on.
		
Click to expand...


Apart from your Sunak bit, you've proved my point. You've over complicated it to the nth degree. Not everyone knows how to spell extrapolate yet alone know what it means. The briefing, once explained in more detail, is actually pretty obvious.

I, almost, suspect you're over complicating it on purpose to try an point score against the govt's handling of it all.


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## Wolf (May 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Apart from your Sunak bit, you've proved my point. You've over complicated it to the nth degree. Not everyone knows how to spell extrapolate yet alone know what it means. The briefing, once explained in more detail, is actually pretty obvious.

I, *almost, suspect you're over complicating it on purpose to try an point score against the govt's handling of *it all.
		
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I don't even suspect it, I think it's pretty obvious from every post he does that, but will always pretend otherwise


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## AmandaJR (May 12, 2020)




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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			He had my approval when I voted for him, I just don’t approve of his handling of this virus nor the furlough extension. He’d get my approval if he was to lockdown the vulnerable groups and let the rest of society get on with it, thus not increasing my tax payments which I guess will rise to pay for the governments wage bill.
		
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A shame hes not acting in your personal interest.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I don't even suspect it, I think it's pretty obvious from every post he does that, but will always pretend otherwise
		
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Can I extrapolate from that you dont agree with him 😉


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Extending furlough has bought some blue votes next time round I’ll bet.
		
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'A week is a long time in politics' is a truism! As it's almost 5 years until the next election, I don't believe 'extending furlough' will be particularly remembered - though the overall handling IS likely to be.


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## Wolf (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Can I extrapolate from that you dont agree with him 😉
		
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Depends if your extrapolating to the nth degree so that you go full circle and get confused as to what your own point is, or merely take as written and come to the correct conclusion 😉


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There's been *a number of politicians that have refused to go on his programme*. Can't say I blame them. He's just not interested in their answers if they don't 100% conform with his view of what they should be. I do hope that he gets binned soon as he is, quite literally, a turn off.
		
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I'm not a fan, but he does 'grill' interviewees - which is quite possibly the real reason for the bold bit. I agree that he interviews with an agenda, but that's how politicians work too. I'd be interested to see how he'd perform against some of the old 'heavy-hitters' like Ken Clarke or maybe Ed Balls, both of whom were very insistent at getting their own message across.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

Enjoying Farage and his fans on his LBC programme attacking the government for continuing the furlough payments, and not cutting them more strongly.  Apparently too many people are having an easy life of it...and so will be reluctant to go back to work.  Plus - with no holidays overseas; unable to go to the pub or restaurants; no travel costs going to work etc people are *better *off! 

He still has his fans does Nigel - and some still hoping he'll be the next Prime Minister.  Oh yes.  He well and truly caught some folks hook, line and sinker over the years.  Almost fun listening to him these days - almost


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Hearing there was a coronavirus outbreak in Edinburgh in February, centered on a hotel I walk past every day. Government knew about it but decided not to tell anyone. I'm so frustrated by the mishandling of it all.
		
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I believe they were advised that they couldn't! So perhaps not mishandled at all. 
Seems to me that you are more likely simply wanting to moan (at your government)!


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## Reemul (May 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you can see what "sitting in the garden" implications are then you won't understand the message. Think about what normally happens when you visit, sitting in chairs, or are you taking your own, tea/coffe, biscuits and cake, going to the loo. Any number of ways to pass on, get any number of nastiness.
		
Click to expand...

Actually it is not difficult. My wife would go round her twins house, sit in the garden and have a chat for 30 minutes. She would not have to go down the park where there are hundreds of other people gathering and deal with the crowds issue, she could park in his drive way go down the side of the house and not go inside, she can also do the same with her parents who have a large house and garden not drink the drinks or use the loo (it is possible for not to need the loo for more than 30 mins you know) but I can still spend 4 hours with her dad because he like I plays golf. I get to spend time with her family all who play golf yet she cannot because she does not.

Add to that the people opposite had 5 visitors in their house for most of Sunday, the lady from the house 2 doors down was sitting in her sisters car for an hour the other day and 4 doors down they had bloody party in the garden. The people that don't give a toss still don't regardless of the rules, yet those of us that can and do follow the rules have to deal with the stupidity of rules that are not correct while the abusers continue to abuse and it has noticably got worse over the last week. When going for my daily exercise tonight I passed a house round the corner and 2 women came out with one saying off to see mum now catch up with you later, obviously not living there just visiting the sister and then the mum.

It is a can of worms, poorly thought out and certainly does not help everyone.


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## drdel (May 12, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Actually it is not difficult. My wife would go round her twins house, sit in the garden and have a chat for 30 minutes. She would not have to go down the park where there are hundreds of other people gathering and deal with the crowds issue, she could park in his drive way go down the side of the house and not go inside, she can also do the same with her parents who have a large house and garden not drink the drinks or use the loo (it is possible for not to need the loo for more than 30 mins you know) but I can still spend 4 hours with her dad because he like I plays golf. I get to spend time with her family all who play golf yet she cannot because she does not.

Add to that the people opposite had 5 visitors in their house for most of Sunday, the lady from the house 2 doors down was sitting in her sisters car for an hour the other day and 4 doors down they had bloody party in the garden. The people that don't give a toss still don't regardless of the rules, yet those of us that can and do follow the rules have to deal with the stupidity of rules that are not correct while the abusers continue to abuse and it has noticably got worse over the last week. When going for my daily exercise tonight I passed a house round the corner and 2 women came out with one saying off to see mum now catch up with you later, obviously not living there just visiting the sister and then the mum.

It is a can of worms, poorly thought out and certainly does not help everyone.
		
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It would be impossible to write guidance for all situations and types of households. Best to keep It simple for the vast majority.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Enjoying Farage and his fans on his LBC programme attacking the government for continuing the furlough payments, and not cutting them more strongly.  Apparently too many people are having an easy life of it...and so will be reluctant to go back to work.  Plus - with no holidays overseas; unable to go to the pub or restaurants; no travel costs going to work etc people are *better *off!

He still has his fans does Nigel - and some still hoping he'll be the next Prime Minister.  Oh yes.  He well and truly caught some folks hook, line and sinker over the years.  Almost fun listening to him these days - almost 

Click to expand...

He's not under your bed, he cant hurt you any more, let it go you will feel a great weight lifted.  And breathe.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Actually it is not difficult. My wife would go round her twins house, sit in the garden and have a chat for 30 minutes. She would not have to go down the park where there are hundreds of other people gathering and deal with the crowds issue, she could park in his drive way go down the side of the house and not go inside, she can also do the same with her parents who have a large house and garden not drink the drinks or use the loo (it is possible for not to need the loo for more than 30 mins you know) but I can still spend 4 hours with her dad because he like I plays golf. I get to spend time with her family all who play golf yet she cannot because she does not.

Add to that the people opposite had 5 visitors in their house for most of Sunday, the lady from the house 2 doors down was sitting in her sisters car for an hour the other day and 4 doors down they had bloody party in the garden. The people that don't give a toss still don't regardless of the rules, yet those of us that can and do follow the rules have to deal with the stupidity of rules that are not correct while the abusers continue to abuse and it has noticably got worse over the last week. When going for my daily exercise tonight I passed a house round the corner and 2 women came out with one saying off to see mum now catch up with you later, obviously not living there just visiting the sister and then the mum.

It is a can of worms, poorly thought out and certainly does not help everyone.
		
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Most people live in different arrangements so who should they make the rules for. Regarding the Women, they are breaking the rules so should they change the rules to suit them.


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## DanFST (May 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Advised by whom? Couldn't do what? Warn the public about a life-threatening health hazard? Take action to prevent the spread of a deadly virus before 1000s of us were infected?

Damn right I want a moan!  I'm so cranky today.... 

Click to expand...


And too bloody right, very dangerous. When it all kicked off the whole of Canary Wharf was updated telling us when and where cases happened.

Does anyone know if it's a Scottish only thing or a new UK policy? God forbid if it happened here, half the posters would have a field day!


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Enjoying Farage and his fans on his LBC programme attacking the government for continuing the furlough payments, and not cutting them more strongly.  Apparently too many people are having an easy life of it...and so will be reluctant to go back to work.  Plus - with no holidays overseas; unable to go to the pub or restaurants; no travel costs going to work etc people are *better *off!

He still has his fans does Nigel - and some still hoping he'll be the next Prime Minister.  Oh yes.  He well and truly caught some folks hook, line and sinker over the years.  Almost fun listening to him these days - almost 

Click to expand...

Fans, you mean the people who tune in and listen.


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## User62651 (May 12, 2020)

Encouraged to see the odd Tory MP break ranks and give a true opinion on things.
Some dissent in a party is healthy.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260257779304017923


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## Swinglowandslow (May 12, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Actually it is not difficult. My wife would go round her twins house, sit in the garden and have a chat for 30 minutes. She would not have to go down the park where there are hundreds of other people gathering and deal with the crowds issue, she could park in his drive way go down the side of the house and not go inside, she can also do the same with her parents who have a large house and garden not drink the drinks or use the loo (it is possible for not to need the loo for more than 30 mins you know) but I can still spend 4 hours with her dad because he like I plays golf. I get to spend time with her family all who play golf yet she cannot because she does not.

Add to that the people opposite had 5 visitors in their house for most of Sunday, the lady from the house 2 doors down was sitting in her sisters car for an hour the other day and 4 doors down they had bloody party in the garden. The people that don't give a toss still don't regardless of the rules, yet those of us that can and do follow the rules have to deal with the stupidity of rules that are not correct while the abusers continue to abuse and it has noticably got worse over the last week. When going for my daily exercise tonight I passed a house round the corner and 2 women came out with one saying off to see mum now catch up with you later, obviously not living there just visiting the sister and then the mum.

It is a can of worms, poorly thought out and certainly does not help everyone.
		
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Obviously you look at it as to how *you *would behave, the government have to look at it how most would behave. And most would sit on something, have tea or beer etc as has been explained.
That is the reason. It is not "stupid rules". It is anticipating responsibly.

As to the instances of others misbehaving. It is wrong but it lends no weight to your primary argument.


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## drdel (May 12, 2020)

IMO the steps taken by the Government with respect income and business protection is unique across the world all while keeping the NHS from being over saturated. 

I wonder if Labour had won the election whether they would have been as ambitious.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO the steps taken by the Government with respect income and business protection is unique across the world all while keeping the NHS from being over saturated.

I wonder if Labour had won the election whether they would have been as ambitious.
		
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Absolutely irrelevant what Labour would of done.

I could tell you they’d of done twice as much or half as much and it would be pointless.

I thought we kept getting told we should be pulling together in this crisis and not playing party politics.

Or is that only the rule when boris is criticised?


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## patricks148 (May 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO the steps taken by the Government with respect income and business protection is unique across the world all while keeping the NHS from being over saturated.

I wonder if Labour had won the election whether they would have been as ambitious.
		
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lol that has to be the funniest thing i've read on here... you crack me up


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 12, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			lol that has to be the funniest thing i've read on here... you crack me up

Click to expand...

It’s not funny, it’s sad, over 32,000 dead as of today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He's not under your bed, he cant hurt you any more, let it go you will feel a great weight lifted.  And breathe.
		
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I don’t normally listen, and haven’t for a long time, as I was finding it painful - but have recently on a couple of occasions such as this evening, found myself overrunning from Eddie Mair and actually it’s quite amusing
listening to his smug chortling as he gets angry with the government and his fans wound up.  He’s even being quite positive about Labour 🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Fans, you mean the people who tune in and listen.
		
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Nah - the ones who phone in and almost ’to a man’ tell him that they are a great fan of his; how fabulous he is; how grateful they are for all he did towards getting us out of the EU; and often how disgraceful it is he hadn’t been honoured and that they wish he was PM.  They are actually fans.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not funny, it’s sad, over 32,000 dead as of today.
		
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Not to worry - look at the 500,000 deaths we could have had if the government hadn’t made all the right decisions and applied them at the right times. Well that’s what we are told - when that really means is ’if the government had done nothing’.  So be it that that is in fact true.


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## Slab (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Enjoying Farage and his fans on his LBC programme attacking the government for continuing the furlough payments, and not cutting them more strongly.  Apparently too many people are having an easy life of it...and so will be reluctant to go back to work.  Plus - with no holidays overseas; unable to go to the pub or restaurants; no travel costs going to work etc people are *better *off!

He still has his fans does Nigel - and some still hoping he'll be the next Prime Minister.  Oh yes.  He well and truly caught some folks hook, line and sinker over the years.  Almost fun listening to him these days - almost 

Click to expand...

I'm just glad to read that you're enjoying something for a change 👍🏻stay well


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## Slab (May 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO the steps taken by the Government with respect income and business protection is unique across the world all while keeping the NHS from being over saturated.

I wonder if Labour had won the election whether they would have been as ambitious.
		
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Probably not that unique. The gov here have taken some pretty strong economic decisions to pay most of the nations workers
I'm sure the bad news will follow when we find out how it all needs to be funded etc but maybe UK version is only unique in its fine detail rather than unique in supporting income etc. I'd actually imagine most countries on lockdown have probably put strong economic measures in place


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## patricks148 (May 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not funny, it’s sad, over 32,000 dead as of today.
		
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you are soo right, i wonder id these ambitiouse actions include the 10 years of austerity and cuts to the NHS that left it struggling to cope with the infection?


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2020)

DRW said:



			Clusters reappearing in Wuhan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-wuhan-idUSKBN22N24F

How are they going to test 11million in 10 days, that is some processing from get it from the people,  to performing the actual lab test.

Come on UK up your game.
		
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Interesting how the many in the British public are quick to dismiss the UK related figures, and find all sorts of reasons why they are inaccurate. But, they are equally quick to believe figures for all other countries. I mean, come on. With a month to go, so many people said the UK had no chance in reaching 100,000 tests. So, is is acceptable to believe Wuhan can to 11 million tests in a week?


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## drdel (May 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely irrelevant what Labour would of done.

I could tell you they’d of done twice as much or half as much and it would be pointless.

I thought we kept getting told we should be pulling together in this crisis and not playing party politics.

Or is that only the rule when boris is criticised?

Click to expand...

A political thread where a political view can't posed🤔🤔


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Advised by whom? Couldn't do what? Warn the public about a life-threatening health hazard? Take action to prevent the spread of a deadly virus before 1000s of us were infected?

Damn right I want a moan!  I'm so cranky today.... 

Click to expand...

GIYF!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

Not quite understanding the Rees-Mogg logic that says that MPs - who are currently mostly all working from home (and I haven't noticed any great problem with that for the time being) - should set an example to workers and go back to their place of work in the chamber - well maybe 50 or so in total.  When in fact the example MPs can set is to work from home as they can?  That said I can actually think of a purely political logic that would make this attractive for the Conservatives and the PM, but it would surely be too cynical.

Had some sympathy Grant Shapps this morning on Today struggling a bit with the some of the rational and contradictions of the recent new guidelines, and essentially having to admit that the cabinet had not seen the new guidance before Johnson recorded his Sunday broadcast.


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## Hacker Khan (May 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO the steps taken by the Government with respect income and business protection is unique across the world all while keeping the NHS from being over saturated.

I wonder if Labour had won the election whether they would have been as ambitious.
		
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Mmmmm, going from literally every thing ever posted on here about Labour's economic policies by Tory supporters, I'm pretty confident that whatever Labour would have done would have been classed by the Tories as 'economically reckless/printing money/ruining the economy/borrowing too much etc etc'.

And I am desperately trying to gloss over the irony of Tories summising that the amount of money that Labour would have borrowed and pumped into the economy for social support/infrastructure/helping the NHS and general economic stimulus, would have not been as large as the amount the Tories have committed.  After the Tories spent the whole of the last election claiming that Labour's borrowing and spending plans on social support/infrastructure/The NHS/social infrastructure was reckless.  Oh, is what was previously classed as socialism suddenly a good idea now???  Well done Tories on such a novel and innovative approach....


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting how the many in the British public are quick to dismiss the UK related figures, and find all sorts of reasons why they are inaccurate. But, they are equally quick to believe figures for all other countries. I mean, come on. With a month to go, so many people said the UK had no chance in reaching 100,000 tests. So, is is acceptable to believe Wuhan can to 11 million tests in a week?
		
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the target that was set by the PM was 100,000 people tested every day from the end of April. It still hasn't been achieved - yesterday's figure was 60.410.

Can Wuhan test 11m people in a week? Seems massively ambitious, I'm guessing they are going to forcibly test everyone. I have as much faith in the stats coming out of China as I do in those coming out of the UK. We are still pretending the total number dead is 32,000 when even the FT is saying it's nearer 55k.


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## AmandaJR (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			the target that was set by the PM was 100,000 people tested every day from the end of April. It still hasn't been achieved - yesterday's figure was 60.410.

Can Wuhan test 11m people in a week? Seems massively ambitious, I'm guessing they are going to forcibly test everyone. I have as much faith in the stats coming out of China as I do in those coming out of the UK. We are still pretending the total number dead is 32,000 when even the FT is saying it's nearer 55k.
		
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60k? Thought it was 85k and according to this link to the slides shown it was...



https://assets.publishing.service.g...5-12_COVID-19_Press_Conference_Slides__7_.pdf


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			60k? Thought it was 85k and according to this link to the slides shown it was...



https://assets.publishing.service.g...5-12_COVID-19_Press_Conference_Slides__7_.pdf

Click to expand...


85k is the so-called number of tests, which includes test kits posted out. 

if you look here, you will see the actual number of people tested was 60k.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public

Johnson's pledge on 5th April was to test 100k people every day from the end of the month.


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## pendodave (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			the target that was set by the PM was 100,000 people tested every day from the end of April. It still hasn't been achieved - yesterday's figure was 60.410.

Can Wuhan test 11m people in a week? Seems massively ambitious, I'm guessing they are going to forcibly test everyone. I have as much faith in the stats coming out of China as I do in those coming out of the UK. We are still pretending the total number dead is 32,000 when even the FT is saying it's nearer 55k.
		
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Back of a fag paper, but 11m tests in a week would require 1000 test centres doing 1 test a minute for 24hrs a day.
Or a lot of very busy postmen...


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## Wolf (May 13, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Back of a fag paper, but 11m tests in a week would require 1000 test centres doing 1 test a minute for 24hrs a day.
Or a lot of very busy postmen...
		
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Or in China it could be done as quickly as someone signing off saying they have done it and filed away with the world then being told only what China decides to tell it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			A political thread where a political view can't posed🤔🤔
		
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Because it’s absolute tosh! Its fairy land stuff and your very first post in this thread agreed with a poster saying enquiries etc in to the Government handling of this crisis should be left till afterwards! I didn’t realise it was beaten yesterday.


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			the target that was set by the PM was 100,000 people tested every day from the end of April. It still hasn't been achieved - yesterday's figure was 60.410.

Can Wuhan test 11m people in a week? Seems massively ambitious, I'm guessing they are going to forcibly test everyone. I have as much faith in the stats coming out of China as I do in those coming out of the UK. We are still pretending the total number dead is 32,000 when even the FT is saying it's nearer 55k.
		
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You get all your news from Piers Morgan then. That is a flaw in itself.

Matt Hancock repeatedly said "tests", not "people". However, it is easy to go through a months worth of footage and reported text to find opposing wording to suit your perspective. Whether you think they did 100,000 tests or not, it was an ambitious target, which was a good thing to set. Also, it is interesting that when 122,000 was reported, then the likes of Piers seemed to imply that only tests in hospital count, conducted by the NHS (yet he doesn't same same about deaths)

There is absolutely NO cover up with deaths. Not an ounce. We are continually told that many deaths are not immediately reported, or the cause of death known. So, hospital deaths were used as they were immediately up to date. As time went on, they were able to improve reporting techniques, so they could report community deaths. However, the cause is still not crystal clear in a proportion of these. The government and their advisors have constantly caveated their presentation with this point. Yet, some still just don't get it, and then try to compare us to other countries as if it is some sort of league table. Yet, when you do this, horrifically fail to realise the countries you are comparing us to have the same weaknesses in reported deaths. And that is just the outputs. Every country has it's own individual circumstances, and inputs as to why the virus hits hard or not. Yet, because people can't bully geography, or historic government decisions, or ourselves, or how our economy works, they feel they have to blame the government solely responsible.


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## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			60k? Thought it was 85k and according to this link to the slides shown it was...



https://assets.publishing.service.g...5-12_COVID-19_Press_Conference_Slides__7_.pdf

Click to expand...

Think was 85k tests on 60k people. So for simplicity 25k people had to have a second test for some reason.


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Think was 85k tests on 60k people. So for simplicity 25k people had to have a second test for some reason.
		
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nope, it includes tests posted out, see below from the daily gov.uk update

*Tests sent to individual at home or to satellite testing locations*
These are counted when tests are dispatched and not at the time of processing in the laboratory.


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## AmandaJR (May 13, 2020)

Do we know if 100,000 requested a test in person and couldn't be accommodated? Serious question because you can't test if people don't request one...


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## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			nope, it includes tests posted out, see below from the daily gov.uk update

*Tests sent to individual at home or to satellite testing locations*
These are counted when tests are dispatched and not at the time of processing in the laboratory.
		
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Not according to BBC News website that says that "some people required a second test". The test kits posted out are included in the 85k as a completed test.

Can't link to the story from my phone but if you Google "UK government Corona virus tests stats explained" the story will come up.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			85k is the so-called number of tests, which includes test kits posted out.

if you look here, you will see the actual number of people tested was 60k.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public

Johnson's pledge on 5th April was to test 100k people every day from the end of the month.
		
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So rather than keep repeating your condemnation what do you think the logistical reason is for the tests not being achieved and what could be done to increase them.


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Do we know if 100,000 requested a test in person and couldn't be accommodated? Serious question because you can't test if people don't request one...
		
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It's a great question. If the virus is now very rare in the community, stands to reason that many might not be requesting one. If that is the case, then perhaps they'll start testing people that feel perfectly healthy, such as care workers and NHS staff and maybe other professions that require it. But, that doesn't happen overnight. They'd need to give it some time to decide whether it is safe to do that, rather than just hitting a temporary trough, and then work out the logistics of it.

It will be interesting what happens when they finally get the reliable antibody tests. I wonder if there will be a sudden surge in tests, as they will be wanting to spread these throughout the community to get a better idea on the actual number of people that have had it.


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			You get all your news from Piers Morgan then. That is a flaw in itself.

Matt Hancock repeatedly said "tests", not "people". However, it is easy to go through a months worth of footage and reported text to find opposing wording to suit your perspective. Whether you think they did 100,000 tests or not, it was an ambitious target, which was a good thing to set. Also, it is interesting that when 122,000 was reported, then the likes of Piers seemed to imply that only tests in hospital count, conducted by the NHS (yet he doesn't same same about deaths)

There is absolutely NO cover up with deaths. Not an ounce. We are continually told that many deaths are not immediately reported, or the cause of death known. So, hospital deaths were used as they were immediately up to date. As time went on, they were able to improve reporting techniques, so they could report community deaths. However, the cause is still not crystal clear in a proportion of these. The government and their advisors have constantly caveated their presentation with this point. Yet, some still just don't get it, and then try to compare us to other countries as if it is some sort of league table. Yet, when you do this, horrifically fail to realise the countries you are comparing us to have the same weaknesses in reported deaths. And that is just the outputs. Every country has it's own individual circumstances, and inputs as to why the virus hits hard or not. Yet, because people can't bully geography, or historic government decisions, or ourselves, or how our economy works, they feel they have to blame the government solely responsible.
		
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I don't watch GMB, but just because Morgan is saying it doesn't make it wrong.

Johnson said on Twitter on 5th April that the target was to test 100k people every day. It wasn't an off the cuff remark. The wording started to change subtly in the middle of the month when it was clear we were struggling to get close to that figure.

But putting semantics aside, be honest - if I said to you that I was going to carry out 100k tests, then when it got to target day, I claimed to have reached the target by counting 37k tests I had put in the post that day, would you really believe i had delivered on my word?


On the number of deaths, I didn't compare us with anyone else, and have said on here previously that comparisons are useless. 

However, just looking at this country, The Office for National Statistics said on Tuesday that 35,044 deaths involving Covid-19 were registered in England and Wales up to 9 May. Adding the latest figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland and more up to date fatalities from the four nations , the total official UK death toll now stands at 40,496.

The FT estimates it is nearer 55k, but if even the ONS are saying it's now over 40k, why is the govt persisting with the figure of 32k?


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not according to BBC News website that says that "some people required a second test". The test kits posted out are included in the 85k as a completed test.

Can't link to the story from my phone but if you Google "UK government Corona virus tests stats explained" the story will come up.
		
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I'm sure there are some 2nd tests, but given the majority are sent to a lab, how many of them are done on the same day as the 1st test?

It would be useful if they gave us a figure for the number of 2nd tests carried out on the same day as the 1st test, and also a figure for the number posted out every day.


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## AmandaJR (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I don't watch GMB, but just because Morgan is saying it doesn't make it wrong.

Johnson said on Twitter on 5th April that the target was to test 100k people every day. It wasn't an off the cuff remark. The wording started to change subtly in the middle of the month when it was clear we were struggling to get close to that figure.

But putting semantics aside, be honest - if I said to you that I was going to carry out 100k tests, then when it got to target day, I claimed to have reached the target by counting 37k tests I had put in the post that day, would you really believe i had delivered on my word?


On the number of deaths, I didn't compare us with anyone else, and have said on here previously that comparisons are useless.

However, just looking at this country, The Office for National Statistics said on Tuesday that 35,044 deaths involving Covid-19 were registered in England and Wales up to 9 May. Adding the latest figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland and more up to date fatalities from the four nations , the total official UK death toll now stands at 40,496.

The FT estimates it is nearer 55k, but if even the ONS are saying it's now over 40k, why is the govt persisting with the figure of 32k?
		
Click to expand...

Are you not implying it's unacceptable to be less than 100% accurate on testing numbers but would be acceptable to be less than 100% accurate on number of deaths?

The 32000 is confirmed deaths with Covid rather than suspected?


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So rather than keep repeating your condemnation what do you think the logistical reason is for the tests not being achieved and *what could be done to increase them*.
		
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test front line workers far more frequently and make the tests more widely available for those in care homes.


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Are you not implying it's unacceptable to be less than 100% accurate on testing numbers but would be acceptable to be less than 100% accurate on number of deaths?

*The 32000 is confirmed deaths with Covid rather than suspected?*

Click to expand...

The term the ONS use is "deaths involving coronavirus"


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I don't watch GMB, but just because Morgan is saying it doesn't make it wrong.

Johnson said on Twitter on 5th April that the target was to test 100k people every day. It wasn't an off the cuff remark. The wording started to change subtly in the middle of the month when it was clear we were struggling to get close to that figure.

But putting semantics aside, be honest - if I said to you that I was going to carry out 100k tests, then when it got to target day, I claimed to have reached the target by counting 37k tests I had put in the post that day, would you really believe i had delivered on my word?


On the number of deaths, I didn't compare us with anyone else, and have said on here previously that comparisons are useless.

However, just looking at this country, The Office for National Statistics said on Tuesday that 35,044 deaths involving Covid-19 were registered in England and Wales up to 9 May. Adding the latest figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland and more up to date fatalities from the four nations , the total official UK death toll now stands at 40,496.

The FT estimates it is nearer 55k, but if even the ONS are saying it's now over 40k, why is the govt persisting with the figure of 32k?
		
Click to expand...

Johnson also said they'd do 250,000 tests a day, but as he didn't set a time limit, he hasn't been nearly as pressed.

Does it surprise me the tests suddenly ramped up? No. Because ramping up to a certain value is often not linear. The initial stages in the process are getting the facilities and and logistics ready, before they turn them on closer to the final date. If I told you I was going to increase the capacity of my local tesco from 1000 people a day to 20,000 a day in a month, it is likely it will stay at 1,000 a day until that final day, when I open the doors.

In terms of comparing certain death figures, I do not have an exact answer. But, I'm guessing it is likely to do with how up to date these figures are when reporting on a daily basis, or to do with working out whether Covid was a primary reason for death, or it was only very much a background issue in someone that was already incredibly ill. Either way, I absolutely do not accept the government are hiding anything. The fact that you can even debate alternative figures proves that. I'd imagine the UK is one of the most open countries in the world in terms of the information the public can get.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I don't watch GMB, but just because Morgan is saying it doesn't make it wrong.

Johnson said on Twitter on 5th April that the target was to test 100k people every day. It wasn't an off the cuff remark. The wording started to change subtly in the middle of the month when it was clear we were struggling to get close to that figure.

But putting semantics aside, be honest - if I said to you that I was going to carry out 100k tests, then when it got to target day, I claimed to have reached the target by counting 37k tests I had put in the post that day, would you really believe i had delivered on my word?


On the number of deaths, I didn't compare us with anyone else, and have said on here previously that comparisons are useless.

However, just looking at this country, The Office for National Statistics said on Tuesday that 35,044 deaths involving Covid-19 were registered in England and Wales up to 9 May. Adding the latest figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland and more up to date fatalities from the four nations , the total official UK death toll now stands at 40,496.

The FT estimates it is nearer 55k, but if even the ONS are saying it's now over 40k, why is the govt persisting with the figure of 32k?
		
Click to expand...

You are making yourself sound unhinged and rabid in your anti Tory rhetoric. It's ok to question why the government's target wasn't met but you're like a dog shaking a rag doll.  The Government set a target but it's the technicians, labs, suppliers etc that have to set it all up and things can go wrong. Please try and get a little balance as it's now become boring.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Do we know if 100,000 requested a test in person and couldn't be accommodated? Serious question because you can't test if people don't request one...
		
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Swango1980 said:



			It's a great question. If the virus is now very rare in the community, stands to reason that many might not be requesting one. If that is the case, then perhaps they'll start testing people that feel perfectly healthy, such as care workers and NHS staff and maybe other professions that require it. But, that doesn't happen overnight. They'd need to give it some time to decide whether it is safe to do that, rather than just hitting a temporary trough, and then work out the logistics of it.

It will be interesting what happens when they finally get the reliable antibody tests. I wonder if there will be a sudden surge in tests, as they will be wanting to spread these throughout the community to get a better idea on the actual number of people that have had it.
		
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I've had this discussion with my wife. It is a very logical question and more relevant than the straight up how many were tested today question.

Swango, massively agree about the antibody test. I'd be all over that, would definitely request one. When that gets rolled out we will get a much better picture of where we stand.


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You are making yourself sound unhinged and rabid in your anti Tory rhetoric. It's ok to question why the government's target wasn't met but you're like a dog shaking a rag doll.  The Government set a target but it's the technicians, labs, suppliers etc that have to set it all up and things can go wrong. Please try and get a little balance as it's now become boring.
		
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'Unhinged"? That's a good one!

I'm not questioning why the target wasn't met, I'm raising the issue of why they are massaging the figures on a daily basis to make it look like they are doing more tests than they actually are.

I haven't mentioned the subject for a while, and wouldn't have if someone hadn't quoted the massaged 85k figure from yesterday.

Sorry if it's boring you, feel free to put me on ignore.


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## drdel (May 13, 2020)

Strange that because ICU capacity now exceeds demand that's a good thing. 

But having test capacity above current demand is bad. 

The test capacity has to be planned in anticipation of the track and trace initiative raising demand.


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Strange that because ICU capacity now exceeds demand that's a good thing.

But having test capacity above current demand is bad.

The test capacity has to be planned in anticipation of the track and trace initiative raising demand.
		
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who said having a test capacity that exceeds demand is bad? I haven't seen anyone saying that.


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## drdel (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			who said having a test capacity that exceeds demand is bad? I haven't seen anyone saying that.
		
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Except for the moans that we've only tested 85,000 and 'should' be testing 100,000+.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nah - the ones who phone in and almost ’to a man’ tell him that they are a great fan of his; how fabulous he is; how grateful they are for all he did towards getting us out of the EU; and often how disgraceful it is he hadn’t been honoured and that they wish he was PM.  They are actually fans.
		
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Not a fan but still listen, there's a word for that but as I don't fancy teach picking up my spelling I won't use it. Or is it something else you listen to and then spend the next hour moaning about it on a forum that on many occasions have shown the dislike of the man.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It's a great question. If the virus is now very rare in the community, stands to reason that many might not be requesting one. If that is the case, then perhaps they'll start testing people that feel perfectly healthy, such as care workers and NHS staff and maybe other professions that require it. But, that doesn't happen overnight. They'd need to give it some time to decide whether it is safe to do that, rather than just hitting a temporary trough, and then work out the logistics of it.

It will be interesting what happens when they finally get the reliable antibody tests. I wonder if there will be a sudden surge in tests, as they will be wanting to spread these throughout the community to get a better idea on the actual number of people that have had it.
		
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Yes it's the antibody test which  will give a truer picture. I read some while ago( think I posted to the effect) that there is a test by Roche, which is ready for use. I have been looking for an update on that, half surprised the government isn't saying about it.
If that test was widely available then it would help a lot. I have seen other posts here speculating that the virus has been amongst us long before generally thought, anecdotal "evidence" from forummers that they may have had it .
And I imagine quite a few would buy it privately if it were on the market?

Edit.   I'm no good at links, but google Roche and Med-tech news , a site which says the UK government is expected to use in mid May


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

Johnson tells us that 'they' have decided that the international comparison graph of deaths due to Covid-19 that we've seen every day for the last seven weeks is not useful...on the grounds that the figures shown are not based upon a common counting methodology.  Was that not always so?  Or what's changed?


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## Hacker Khan (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson tells us that 'they' have decided that the international comparison graph of deaths due to Covid-19 that we've seen every day for the last seven weeks is not useful...on the grounds that the figures shown are not based upon a common counting methodology.  Was that not always so?*  Or what's changed?*

Click to expand...

We're now near the top.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not a fan but still listen, there's a word for that but as I don't fancy teach picking up my spelling I won't use it. Or is it something else you listen to and then spend the next hour moaning about it on a forum that on many occasions have shown the dislike of the man.
		
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I have the radio on for Eddie Mair - and it rolls quickly into Farage. 

I'll usually switch it off right away, but sometimes it's worth just leaving on for a bit to see what anti-government attack he'll launch today...and waiting to see if he's got a '...they picked up 150 illegal immigrants today ...'  He often throws in one of these - red meat to keep his fans happy I guess 

He doesn't irritate me now as he's done the damage that can't been undone.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So rather than keep repeating your condemnation what do you think the logistical reason is for the tests not being achieved and what could be done to increase them.
		
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Tried to get that off SILH but he's not keen on giving his views. There are just more tests available than the public need/won't.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			test front line workers far more frequently and make the tests more widely available for those in care homes.
		
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Tests are done by those who request them whether they are members of the general public or front line staff.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson tells us that 'they' have decided that the international comparison graph of deaths due to Covid-19 that we've seen every day for the last seven weeks is not useful...on the grounds that the figures shown are not based upon a common counting methodology.  Was that not always so?  Or what's changed?
		
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Repeating what everybody else decided weeks ago. Do you personally think the figures did or achieved anything when it was obvious that most countries processed the figures differently. Disappointed in Mr Starmer this week, asking the same questions that he has asked before when there is so much outside the current situation going on and need scrutiny.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Johnson also said they'd do 250,000 tests a day, but as he didn't set a time limit, he hasn't been nearly as pressed.

Does it surprise me the tests suddenly ramped up? No. Because ramping up to a certain value is often not linear. The initial stages in the process are getting the facilities and and logistics ready, before they turn them on closer to the final date. If I told you I was going to increase the capacity of my local tesco from 1000 people a day to 20,000 a day in a month, it is likely it will stay at 1,000 a day until that final day, when I open the doors.

In terms of comparing certain death figures, I do not have an exact answer. But, I'm guessing it is likely to do with how up to date these figures are when reporting on a daily basis, or to do with working out whether Covid was a primary reason for death, or it was only very much a background issue in someone that was already incredibly ill. Either way, I absolutely do not accept the government are hiding anything. The fact that you can even debate alternative figures proves that. I'd imagine the UK is one of the most open countries in the world in terms of the information the public can get.
		
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Johnson has said he has an ambition to have 200,000 tests a day (capacity?) being achieved by the end of May.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			'Unhinged"? That's a good one!

I'm not questioning why the target wasn't met, I'm raising the issue of why they are massaging the figures on a daily basis to make it look like they are doing more tests than they actually are.

I haven't mentioned the subject for a while, and wouldn't have if someone hadn't quoted the massaged 85k figure from yesterday.

Sorry if it's boring you, feel free to put me on ignore.
		
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I would prefer not to but I think we all know your opinion on covid testing already, no need to tell us again and again.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson has said he has an ambition to have 200,000 tests a day (capacity?) being achieved by the end of May.
		
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NB, an ambition.


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson tells us that 'they' have decided that the international comparison graph of deaths due to Covid-19 that we've seen every day for the last seven weeks is not useful...on the grounds that the figures shown are not based upon a common counting methodology.  Was that not always so?  Or what's changed?
		
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I guess what has changed is, after weeks of showing the figures, it has become obvious that so much of the press have treated those graphs like a league table. As such, much of the public treat them as a league table. And, this is being used to effectively pin all the blame on government and their advisors.

For weeks, when press have asked, MPs and scientists have continually explained the flaws in directly comparing that data. The main reason they were showing it was to show the trend towards the peak, and following the peak, and how that patterns compares to other countries. The absolute numbers were never truly important, but they at least gave us an indication as to what countries we'd be most similar to. And, let's be honest, if the government never showed these figures from the start, how would the press react?

But, the press just never got it, or chose not to. They had the headlines ready, and where highly anticipating the day when those numbers surpassed Italy. They demand the numbers to be even higher. They say we are hiding excess deaths (even though it was Mr Whitty that actually told us about excess deaths before most of the press latched onto it). Yet, they never demand we add all these figures to any other country.

Basically, the press want their cake and eat it. So, if they are simply too stupid to understand, it is probably for the best that the government dumb their messages down eve more.


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## MegaSteve (May 13, 2020)

At the end of the day, for me, 'we' are back heading down the "herd immunity" route...
Others may well be OK/happy with that... I am certainly not...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			NB, an ambition.
		
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Indeed - an ambition - and capacity.  I was quite specific  

But to be honest - though having an ambition is great - what's the point if you are unlikely to achieve it.  I might tell the bank I have an ambition to be a multi-millionaire and so they must invest in my business - but I need a credible business plan.  Does Johnson have a credible business plan behind his ambition? Maybe.  

Don't think there was much of one in place for the 100,000 tests a day, as it was actually too dependent upon the whims of those who might or might not want to get tested, and them actually doing the test - so not actually something the government could control.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So rather than keep repeating your condemnation what do you think the logistical reason is for the tests not being achieved and what could be done to increase them.
		
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Surely that's something Keir Starmer should be asking! 

I could suggest that it's because Boris is great at bold pronouncements but pretty dire at actually achieving them! Or that the 200k was an announcement to fudge the fact that they missed the 100k PEOPLE test goal (even when attempting to fudge the results) and announce another goal to divert attention. But both woulld be pure speculation, so I won't!  To me, it seemed an infrastructure/promotional issue, not purely an 'availability' one.

It's the government's job (note small 'g', so that's Public Servants with direction from Ministers) to create the environment to achieve those goals, just like any other Government (note capital 'g', so that's the elected mob/Cabinet) Policy. It's not up to us (the general Public) to do that work, nor specify how it should be done - though we may have a view or disagree with what is imposed. But it's quite legitimate to 'condemn' Government when they fail in their policies. The simple answer, could well be that Boris was too ambitious and, maybe, too specific in his announcement. I certainly believe he's been over-ambitious in aiming for 200k *actual tests* (at least that's changed from 'people tested'!) per day by end of May.


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I would prefer not to but I think we all know your opinion on covid testing already, no need to tell us again and again.
		
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I wasn't telling you, I was telling the poster who quoted the inflated 85,000 figure. 

But thanks for your advice about what I should post. Maybe you could apply that to yourself the next time you want to have a pop at anyone who dares to criticise the govt.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 13, 2020)

BBC Scotland now showing HM Government information on Covid 19 which 99% applies to England only.
Needs a disclaimer. 
Are they thick, argumentative ….or both.
They seem to have totally forgotten that Wales, NI and Scotland devolved nations rejected most of what the UK Government proposed for the UK.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I wasn't telling you, I was telling the poster who quoted the inflated 85,000 figure.

But thanks for your advice about what I should post. Maybe you could apply that to yourself the next time you want to have a pop at anyone who dares to criticise the govt.
		
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I do critise the Government where I feel they have erred and  would support someone who has made a fair comment disagreeing with their actions. if you look back over the last week here you will see plenty of cases where I have done that. Just try and be a little measured in your condemnations.


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## DanFST (May 13, 2020)

Cycled passed the local testing centre today, not a single car in there both times I went past, asked the bored looking guards and they said they'd had about 10 cars today (2pm).

Can't really blame the government that people aren't needing to be tested en masse now, you can blame them that these stations were set up far too late.


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## PaulS (May 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC Scotland now showing HM Government information on Covid 19 which 99% applies to England only.
Needs a disclaimer.
Are they thick, argumentative ….or both.
They seem to have totally forgotten that Wales, NI and Scotland devolved nations rejected most of what the UK Government proposed for the UK.
		
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Wow you’re seriously bitter aren’t you


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Surely that's something Keir Starmer should be asking!

I could suggest that it's because Boris is great at bold pronouncements but pretty dire at actually achieving them! Or that the 200k was an announcement to fudge the fact that they missed the 100k PEOPLE test goal (even when attempting to fudge the results) and announce another goal to divert attention. But both woulld be pure speculation, so I won't!  To me, it seemed an infrastructure/promotional issue, not purely an 'availability' one.

It's the government's job (note small 'g', so that's Public Servants with direction from Ministers) to create the environment to achieve those goals, just like any other Government (note capital 'g', so that's the elected mob/Cabinet) Policy. It's not up to us (the general Public) to do that work, nor specify how it should be done - though we may have a view or disagree with what is imposed. But it's quite legitimate to 'condemn' Government when they fail in their policies. The simple answer, could well be that Boris was too ambitious and, maybe, too specific in his announcement. I certainly believe he's been over-ambitious in aiming for 200k *actual tests* (at least that's changed from 'people tested'!) per day by end of May.
		
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Very interesting views but not really relevant to the point I was making to a poster who has been commenting a number of times  regarding the Governments failiure to achieve their target on testing.  I wanted his views on how the logistics could have been improved.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC Scotland now showing HM Government information on Covid 19 which 99% applies to England only.
Needs a disclaimer.
Are they thick, argumentative ….or both.
They seem to have totally forgotten that Wales, NI and Scotland devolved nations rejected most of what the UK Government proposed for the UK.
		
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And Wales have decided that the Scots model is not appropriate to them.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			... Disappointed in Mr Starmer this week, asking the same questions that he has asked before when there is so much outside the current situation going on and need scrutiny.
		
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Are the questions no longer relevant?
Did he actually get a (proper) answer to the original one(s)?
I haven't actually seen much of Parliament, but what I have has simply been more of the same - Questions asked/avoided with little 'proper' debate. That's pretty understandable under the circumstances, but a little disappointing that 'democracy' has shifted away from Parliament. Starmer needs to raise his profile if he really wants to challenge BoJo - but their is a fine balance between legitimate politial challenging and simply being negative that he has to navigate!


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## AmandaJR (May 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Ironically I had to google to find out what GIYF stood for 

Seems a bit off to make a comment on my post and then expect me to search the internet to learn what you were havering about. However, never mind, I no longer care.
		
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Ha ha ha - that really made me chuckle as I just had to Google GIYF as well


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Very interesting views but not really relevant to the point I was making to a poster who has been commenting a number of times  regarding the Governments failiure to achieve their target on testing.  I wanted his views on how the logistics could have been improved.
		
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And my point, that you seem to have missed/ignored, was that 'improve the logistics' is the only proper view. It's 'the government's' role to do so if that's what the reason is.

What makes YOU actually think that 'the logistics' need to be improved?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

Jenrick responding to being asked why the international comparison graphs have been dropped has been evasive, diverting and is simply not being open and honest with us.  The Deputy CMO for England has stated very clearly that they have been saying all along that the basis for the comparisons was inconsistent.  

We are being promised openness and clarity by the government, but time and time again we get the opposite because the government and minsters taking the briefing see it as the politically expedient thing to do.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			And my point, that you seem to have missed/ignored, was that 'improve the logistics' is the only proper view. It's 'the government's' role to do so if that's what the reason is.

What makes YOU actually think that 'the logistics' need to be improved?
		
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I dont, but if the poster 'I was actually addressing' feels he needed to be critical of the Governments performance on testing then I would like to understand 'his views' on what logistical changes could have improved the results.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jenrick responding to being asked why the international comparison graphs have been dropped has been evasive, diverting and is simply not being open and honest with us.  The Deputy CMO for England has stated very clearly that they have been saying all along that the basis for the comparisons was inconsistent. 

We are being promised openness and clarity by the government, but time and time again we get the opposite because the government and minsters taking the briefing see it as the politically expedient thing to do.
		
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Surely they learn as they go along and the new presentations give a better explanation of what's actually happening.   Why is that a problem for you, theres not always a red under the bed.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont, but if *the poster 'I was actually addressing'* feels he needed to be critical of the Governments performance on testing then I would like to understand 'his views' on what logistical changes could have improved the results.
		
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What a copout! It's a forum! If you only want to communicate as per the bold bit, then use a PM! 

In light of the obvious failure to achieve the target - in spite of a dire failed attempt to fiddle the 'number'! - and the fact that the target has continued to be missed since,...What logistical changes would YOU suggest that could have improved the results?!


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Are the questions no longer relevant?
Did he actually get a (proper) answer to the original one(s)?
I haven't actually seen much of Parliament, but what I have has simply been more of the same - Questions asked/avoided with little 'proper' debate. That's pretty understandable under the circumstances, but a little disappointing that 'democracy' has shifted away from Parliament. Starmer needs to raise his profile if he really wants to challenge BoJo - but their is a fine balance between legitimate politial challenging and simply being negative that he has to navigate!
		
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My point was that they were the same questions that he has asked and had answered before. Not getting the answer you want isn't a reason to keep asking the same question, politicians from all sides will only give you the answer they want to give you . There must be other important things he should be looking at. IMO


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jenrick responding to being asked why the international comparison graphs have been dropped has been evasive, diverting and is simply not being open and honest with us.  The Deputy CMO for England has stated very clearly that they have been saying all along that the basis for the comparisons was inconsistent. 

We are being promised openness and clarity by the government, but time and time again we get the opposite because the government and minsters taking the briefing see it as the politically expedient thing to do.
		
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He handed over to Jenny to answer and she did, what's the problem this time.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			What a copout! It's a forum! If you only want to communicate as per the bold bit, then use a PM!

In light of the obvious failure to achieve the target - in spite of a dire failed attempt to fiddle the 'number'! - and the fact that the target has continued to be missed since,...What logistical changes would YOU suggest that could have improved the results?!
		
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Everyone that is claiming to be off work due to having symptom to be marched down to the testing center now Sargent Major.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

I tell my Mrs that I promise get to my MiLs by tomorrow midday.  That's great, she says but she lives 170miles away how are you going to get there and we don't have a car.  I'll hire one says I.  I've got £50.

Now it's quite reasonable for me to assume I should be able to hire a car - and maybe for £50, but no guarantee especially in these times (is car hire still operating btw?) - and so not something I should promise to do.  

Quite easy.  Under promise - Over deliver.  Don't promise to deliver something that has significant dependencies upon factors outside of your control - aka the British Public.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jenrick responding to being asked why the international comparison graphs have been dropped has been evasive, diverting and is simply not being open and honest with us.  The Deputy CMO for England has stated very clearly that they have been saying all along that the basis for the comparisons was inconsistent. 

We are being promised openness and clarity by the government, but time and time again we get the opposite because the government and minsters taking the briefing see it as the politically expedient thing to do.
		
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It's very difficult for a politician to alter their 'natural' tendency to 'fudge'!

It doesn't really matter that international _comparisons_ aren't appriopriate. There are, generally, sufficient consistent attributes within each country's data to indicate whereabouts in the pandemic 'pattern' a particular country is.


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## DanFST (May 13, 2020)

Just to add to my previous point, checked online and I can get a test tomorrow morning. 

There is logistical reasons etc, especially in London. But excluding those, at least you can get tested when needed. I'd much rather that then them hit the numbers, but people be waiting for a test.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He handed over to Jenny to answer and she did, what's the problem this time.
		
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You really choose to not get it.  After not answering the question Jenrick handed to Harries who was then very clear that *all along *they have said that the comparisons were not particularly valid - yet the government have chosen to present them to us every day for the last 7 weeks or so.  She handed back to Jenrick who simply repeated his non-answer to 'why is the comparison graph not appropriate now' (when the CMO has been saying this all along).

It really isn't difficult to see the Jenrick did not answer the 'why up until now but no longer' question when the validity of the comparison has not changed - so it can't be that.


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I do critise the Government where I feel they have erred and  would support someone who has made a fair comment disagreeing with their actions. if you look back over the last week here you will see plenty of cases where I have done that. *Just try and be a little measured in your condemnations*.
		
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Bit rich coming from the guy who was calling me "unhinged" 

pot ... kettle ....


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Very interesting views but not really relevant to the point I was making to a poster who has been commenting a number of times  regarding the Governments failiure to achieve their target on testing.  *I wanted his views on how the logistics could have been improved*.
		
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I gave you them.

To get the number of tests up, proactively test front line workers more regularly, and step up the testing in care homes.

To make the number of tests more accurate, stop counting packages sent out in the post. By all means, count them if and when they come back and are tested.

I've said this to you a number of times, but it seems you only read what you want to see.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...It really isn't difficult to see the Jenrick did not answer the 'why up until now but no longer' question when the validity of the comparison has not changed - so it can't be that.
		
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Some magic here!


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I gave you them.

To get the number of tests up, proactively test front line workers more regularly, and step up the testing in care homes.

To make the number of tests more accurate, stop counting packages sent out in the post. By all means, count them if and when they come back and are tested.

I've said this to you a number of times, but it seems you only read what you want to see.
		
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That's not what I asked. I asked how the facilities for testing could be improved. Regarding who gets tested, you can drag a horse to water but you cant make him drink.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 13, 2020)

I've not been online for a few days, but nothing has changed on this side of the pond.

Covid 19 is neither a public health crisis nor an economic crisis here in America.
It's purely an ideological dog fight.

If, in 2016, you voted for Secretary Clinton, you favor maintaining shelter in place precautions.
If, in contrast, you voted for the diseased and deranged orangutan, you're ready for business as usual.

Except for losing a few bucks in my modest portfolio and not having been able to see my daughter in three months, the pandemic isn't bothering me at all.
I'm comfortable getting a little air while walking Molly and then enjoying the comforts of my home for the rest of the day.
My pension, social security, and medicare coverage aren't affected at all.
True, I'm not playing golf, but at 73, who knows how long that would have lasted anyway?

Others are stressed terribly by the financial burden that comes with being out of work.
I'm sure that's a terrible position in which to be.

Regardless of the financial stress or not, however, opinions are still following ideological lines almost perfectly.
This republic is seriously stressed.  It's becoming an existential issue.
The pure resources advantage belonging to this nation sprawling between two great oceans has covered up a lot of flaws for a very long time.
Now the stuffing is finally leaking through the seams.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Bit rich coming from the guy who was calling me "unhinged" 

pot ... kettle ....
		
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Mr Pot Kettle,

You dont get 'measured in your condemnations' do you? As I explained, I have critised the Government but you remain blinkered and (ok unhinged is a little strong) slightly unhinged 😄


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			What a copout! It's a forum! If you only want to communicate as per the bold bit, then use a PM!

In light of the obvious failure to achieve the target - in spite of a dire failed attempt to fiddle the 'number'! - and the fact that the target has continued to be missed since,...What logistical changes would YOU suggest that could have improved the results?!
		
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Of course you are able to interject but it would be better if you kept to the question being asked if you feel it necessary.   As I am not criticising the Governments testing program why should I suggest any logistical changes, I think they did an amazing job of increasing capacity.

Your comments regarding 'the governments dire failed attempt at fiddling the number' and 'the target continuing to be missed' is again nothing to do with my post so I dont feel obliged to respond to it.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really choose to not get it.  After not answering the question Jenrick handed to Harries who was then very clear that *all along *they have said that the comparisons were not particularly valid - yet the government have chosen to present them to us every day for the last 7 weeks or so.  She handed back to Jenrick who simply repeated his non-answer to 'why is the comparison graph not appropriate now' (when the CMO has been saying this all along).

It really isn't difficult to see the Jenrick did not answer the 'why up until now but no longer' question when the validity of the comparison has not changed - so it can't be that.
		
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Asked and answered.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Asked and answered.
		
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Shrugs 🤔


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## rudebhoy (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Mr Pot Kettle,

You dont get 'measured in your condemnations' do you? As I explained, I have critised the Government but you remain blinkered and (ok unhinged is a little strong) slightly unhinged 😄
		
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I have to say that it is slightly depressing that your default response to any point you disagree with is petty insults.

I'm not going to waste any more time on you.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I have to say that it is slightly depressing that your default response to any point you disagree with is *petty insults.*

I'm not going to waste any more time on you.
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣  You used the Pot.. Kettle.. Also take a critical look through your own posts.


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## williamalex1 (May 13, 2020)

Did i imagine hearing this on the news at 10, that the Bank of England will loan the government enough money to see this crisis through, with no time limit on repayment


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## User62651 (May 13, 2020)

Food for thought, with the benefit of hindsight of course, but you really have to wonder why we took the path we did.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260568774329225217


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## Hobbit (May 13, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Food for thought, with the benefit of hindsight of course, but you really have to wonder why we took the path we did.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260568774329225217

Click to expand...

There's also a Twitter post doing the rounds showing an opposition MP in NZ slaughtering their PM's record in the run up to lockdown. It sounds very familiar to what we're hearing in the UK about Boris.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You really choose to not get it.  After not answering the question Jenrick handed to Harries who was then very clear that *all along *they have said that the comparisons were not particularly valid - *yet the government have chosen to present them to us every day for the last 7 weeks or so*.  She handed back to Jenrick who simply repeated his non-answer to 'why is the comparison graph not appropriate now' (when the CMO has been saying this all along).

It really isn't difficult to see the Jenrick did not answer the 'why up until now but no longer' question when the validity of the comparison has not changed - so it can't be that.
		
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This was answered quite along time ago, on here. The government presented them because if they had not , their ever-waiting-to-pounce critics and even more so, the hacks, would have accused them of failing to show the other countries' figures because they show our figures are so awful ;and the government is hiding the true death figures etc etc.
So they showed them from the OFF.
But it is still the fact that countries' figures are being prepared in different ways.E.g.What is a covid death in U.K. is not a covid death in Germany
How many times has that to be explained?


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There's also a Twitter post doing the rounds showing an opposition MP in NZ slaughtering their PM's record in the run up to lockdown. It sounds very familiar to what we're hearing in the UK about Boris.
		
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Ta
Speaking to my Cousin in NZ  he says the lockdown there has been harsh but he said it's not been enforced on a level playing field and although most have been kept rigidly at home it hasnt been applied the same way to everyone.

Also, wouldnt it have been so much easier to control a population similar to Scotland over an area the size of the UK.


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## MegaSteve (May 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Ta
Speaking to my Cousin in NZ  he says the lockdown there has been harsh but he said it's not been enforced on a level playing field and although most have been kept rigidly at home it hasnt been applied the same way to everyone.

Also, wouldnt it have been so much easier to control a population similar to Scotland over an area the size of the UK.
		
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I rather suspect that many here feel the rules are not being relaxed/applied in a fair manner... The working classes are being encouraged back out to work with its additional risks... Whilst the desk jockey middle classes are being let out to return to their elitist pastimes of golf and tennis...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Wow you’re seriously bitter aren’t you
		
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Not at all...Like Nicola Sturgeon I totally respect England's right to do things differently to the other three UK nations, after all they are 5 weeks ahead of Scotland on the Covid clock.
What I shake my head at is the equivalent of BBC South [England] showing the weather forecast for The Scottish Highlands without telling them that it is for Wales.

BTW I see anti lockdown mass gathering protests are planned for Southampton and Swindon


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This was answered quite along time ago, on here. The government presented them because if they had not , their ever-waiting-to-pounce critics and even more so, the hacks, would have accused them of failing to show the other countries' figures because they show our figures are so awful ;and the government is hiding the true death figures etc etc.
So they showed them from the OFF.
But it is still the fact that countries' figures are being prepared in different ways.E.g.What is a covid death in U.K. is not a covid death in Germany
How many times has that to be explained?
		
Click to expand...

Is there anything you won’t excuse this Government for?
They only presented them to avoid the hacks and critics pouncing? Really? They looked at them, knew they were pointless and thought “best show them so we don’t get awkward questions”

Why has it took 7 weeks to stop showing them? Why not stop after 1, 2 or any number before? 

I agree they are pointless, I agree everybody reports differently. It still begs the question why it took so long, it was always in the Governments gift whether to show them or not and to use the excuse we’ve been given is shallow and says more about the Government and who they are trying to please rather than who they are afraid of.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2020)

During an interview by the Beeb's Breakfast News presenter Charlie Stayt questioned the Tory Minister on why old people were discharged from hospital to care homes.................  I can't get the words out....... I am xxxx raging! I'd like to think I misheard what I thought was a slip by the Tory Minister because the alternative is abhorrent. 

Old people were sent out from hospitals to protect the NHS. That is what he said!!! They were/are collateral damage to protect others. Just who are the most vulnerable?

If it was picked up by others, the nuance of what was said I'd like to hear about it, especially if I've got it wrong. We don't have catch-up here, otherwise I'd try and watch it again.


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## MegaSteve (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW I see anti lockdown mass gathering protests are planned for Southampton and Swindon
		
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A previous occasion you highlighted a potential protest occurring in the south it amounted to four boys in blue to each protester... You really need to rein in your anti-English rhetoric...


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## AmandaJR (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not at all...Like Nicola Sturgeon I totally respect England's right to do things differently to the other three UK nations, after all they are *5 weeks ahead of Scotland on the Covid clock*.
What I shake my head at is the equivalent of BBC South [England] showing the weather forecast for The Scottish Highlands without telling them that it is for Wales.

BTW I see anti lockdown mass gathering protests are planned for Southampton and Swindon
		
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That number keeps growing. You replied to me it was 2 weeks previously!


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			That number keeps growing. You replied to me it was 2 weeks previously!
		
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I also thought it funny he said respects the right for England to do things differently but slates it every time they do anything different., 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## IanM (May 14, 2020)

Welsh 1st Minister allowed garden centres to open but not golf and fishing.  He got so much stick for it he climbed down withing 48 hours.  

Next door neighbour went into Chepstow Garden Centre yesterday... he didn't stop.  It was absolutely packed, everybody he saw pretty much over State Pension Age,  Little social distancing going on from the customers...

But their demise will be  Boris' fault of course.


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## AmandaJR (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I also thought it funny he said respects the right for England to do things differently but slates it every time they do anything different., 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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Well Scotland are doing everything right and the only reason the R number is higher is because we're so in front of them on the Covid timeline! Keep moving that out to explain the R rate. Can't get my head around how a population of 6m, and so spread are still having a high rate of infection...

I'm only saying that in a response to his attitude (them and us) and really shouldn't but patience runs thin sometimes.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Food for thought, with the benefit of hindsight of course, but you really have to wonder why we took 
the path we did.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260568774329225217

Click to expand...

I haven't watched the video( don't want anything to do with Twitter).
But comparing New Zealand with U.K. is ridiculous.
5 million in NZ , comparable size Country, 60 mill here.
4 million in NZ throughout several cities, 10 million in London UK
47 per sq mile in NZ. More in urban, yes.....But 12000 in London Uk.

Do better to compare it with Northern Ireland or similar, but that wouldn't suit your argument re Government efficiency.


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			...As I am not criticising the Governments testing program why should I suggest any logistical changes, I think they did an amazing job of increasing capacity.
		
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What a copout reply! They are missing *their* target(s)! And fudging figures to make it look as if they aren't! So either the target is too ambitious (my belief) or they (the government) are inept! Either way, they _should_ be challenged as to why - even by faithful devotees like, apparently, yourself! 


SocketRocket said:



			Your comments regarding 'the governments dire failed attempt at fiddling the number' and 'the target continuing to be missed' is again nothing to do with my post so I dont feel obliged to respond to it.
		
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An even larger copout than the one above!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I also thought it funny he said respects the right for England to do things differently but slates it every time they do anything different., 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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I can respect their right, whilst disagreeing with their thinking/planning...…….what on earth is wrong with that.

Amanda.
Ist case in England was 1st Dec 2019
1st case in Scotland 1st March 2020
Ist death in England 5th March 2020
!st death in Scotland 13th March 2020.
Spread is two months to 8 days.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			During an interview by the Beeb's Breakfast News presenter Charlie Stayt questioned the Tory Minister on why old people were discharged from hospital to care homes.................  I can't get the words out....... I am xxxx raging! I'd like to think I misheard what I thought was a slip by the Tory Minister because the alternative is abhorrent.

Old people were sent out from hospitals to protect the NHS. That is what he said!!! They were/are collateral damage to protect others. Just who are the most vulnerable?

If it was picked up by others, the nuance of what was said I'd like to hear about it, especially if I've got it wrong. We don't have catch-up here, otherwise I'd try and watch it again.
		
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This bloke?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260832685209116673


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## drdel (May 14, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			What a copout reply! They are missing *their* target(s)! And fudging figures to make it look as if they aren't! So either the target is too ambitious (my belief) or they (the government) are inept! Either way, they _should_ be challenged as to why - even by faithful devotees like, apparently, yourself!

An even larger copout than the one above!
		
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You know full well that all Ministers can do is mobilise the resources they do not control how the medical profession and others take up and use the capacity made available. 

Do you want compulsory random testing?


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can respect their right, whilst disagreeing with their thinking/planning...…….what on earth is wrong with that.

Click to expand...

Its not the disagreement DfT it's your complete anti English rhetoric that is literally in nearly everything you post, then go and claim you respect the right to be different 🙄 When in fact you only respect anything that may show a bad light because it suits your agenda.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This bloke?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260832685209116673

Click to expand...

That's the one. He also says the NHS had the capacity....... so why send old people back to the care homes to protect the NHS? I genuinely hope that I misheard the piece, because if I didn't I'm struggling to believe any govt would operate a policy that knowingly puts vulnerable people in harms way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			That's the one. He also says the NHS had the capacity....... so why send old people back to the care homes to protect the NHS? I genuinely hope that I misheard the piece, because if I didn't I'm struggling to believe any govt would operate a policy that knowingly puts vulnerable people in harms way.
		
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He’s been doing the rounds this morning, been on Sky and R4 and apparently made a few gaffs.

It won’t be his fault though, it’ll be the Journos trying to trip him up.


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## doublebogey7 (May 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			You know full well that all Ministers can do is mobilise the resources they do not control how the medical profession and others take up and use the capacity made available.

Do you want compulsory random testing?
		
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But to meet any target its not just about having the capacity it's about ensuring that capacity is accessible to the people that need it.  My wife was offered a test on Monday,  but the nearest test centre was nearly 20 miles away and would have taken well in access of an hour to get there by public transport. Now we have plenty of time and a car so was no real problem,  not so for care workers on zero-hours and minimmum wage contracts.


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## User62651 (May 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I haven't watched the video( don't want anything to do with Twitter).
But comparing New Zealand with U.K. is ridiculous.
5 million in NZ , comparable size Country, 60 mill here.
4 million in NZ throughout several cities, 10 million in London UK
47 per sq mile in NZ. More in urban, yes.....But 12000 in London Uk.

Do better to compare it with Northern Ireland or similar, but that wouldn't suit your argument re Government efficiency.
		
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Just deflection.
I saw the video a while ago on facebook but it reappeared yesterday on twitter so unsure of origin but why not watch? I am expected to and do watch all the Govt propaganda/lies on a daily basis if I watch the news so why not see a different view - it's pretty short video and evidences boris's actual words and then disagree vehemently?
Not so much anti government but definitely anti Johnson, not because he isn't a character, just that he is not cut out to be a PM and proves that on an almost daily basis.
Watch the short video or else there's little point commenting.

Japan has more crowding than UK with about 125 million to our 67 million and their deaths are a mere fraction of ours.


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			What a copout reply! They are missing *their* target(s)! And fudging figures to make it look as if they aren't! So either the target is too ambitious (my belief) or they (the government) are inept! Either way, they _should_ be challenged as to why - even by faithful devotees like, apparently, yourself!

An even larger copout than the one above!
		
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Try and understand this: I'm not interested in your opinion on that issue, I wasnt discussing it and you decided to interject my post with it, my post asked someone else their views on how logistics could have been improved to create more testing facities. Keep on about missing targets if it suits you but dont drag me it.   How can I copout of an issue I'm not posting about 🙄


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## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Its not the disagreement DfT it's your complete anti English rhetoric that is literally in nearly everything you post, then go and claim you respect the right to be different 🙄 When in fact you only respect anything that may show a bad light because it suits your agenda.
		
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You really don't get it do you.
If England had it's own Government within the UK there would not be any problems.
Cameron started all of this by virtually turning Westminster into an English government.
May/Johnson have done nothing to stop it. In fact Johnson is currently giving all indications that he does not even understand how it works.


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			But to meet any target its not just about having the capacity it's about ensuring that capacity is accessible to the people that need it.  My wife was offered a test on Monday,  but the nearest test centre was nearly 20 miles away and would have taken well in access of an hour to get there by public transport. Now we have plenty of time and a car so was no real problem,  not so for care workers on zero-hours and minimmum wage contracts.
		
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There cant be a testing station within a few miles of everyone though. If people have to attend a hospital appointment they normally have to travel different distances based on where they live.


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You really don't get it do you.
If England had it's own Government within the UK there would not be any problems.
Cameron started all of this by virtually turning Westminster into an English government.
May/Johnson have done nothing to stop it. In fact Johnson is currently giving all indications that he does not even understand how it works.

Click to expand...

There is no English Government.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You really don't get it do you.
If England had it's own Government within the UK there would not be any problems.
Cameron started all of this by virtually turning Westminster into an English government.
May/Johnson have done nothing to stop it. In fact Johnson is currently giving all indications that he does not even understand how it works.

Click to expand...

No Doon I very much get it and you using Cameron is pure deflection as that was in 2016, yet independence vote was 2 years prior which you always go on about, I may not have been here all that long but your posts have much more basis on what happened and you lost in 2014 than what Cameron did in 2016.

Yet there is my point in your post your stating its England's fault and no accountability for your own posts, nobody makes you post constant anti English guff thats purely your own choice to do so.... Be careful not to fall off that high horse I hear its a long fall from such a self imposed lofty position.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no English Government.
		
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Don't go being sensible and posting facts like that... Cant you see it's the fault of the English or someone regardless in DfT eyes, can't accept responsibility for his own views.


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## AmandaJR (May 14, 2020)

1st December?


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Don't go being sensible and posting facts like that... Cant you see it's the fault of the English or someone regardless in DfT eyes, can't accept responsibility for his own views.
		
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Oh yes. Sorry 😄


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## AmandaJR (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can respect their right, whilst disagreeing with their thinking/planning...…….what on earth is wrong with that.

Amanda.
Ist case in England was 1st Dec 2019
1st case in Scotland 1st March 2020
Ist death in England 5th March 2020
!st death in Scotland 13th March 2020.
Spread is two months to 8 days.
		
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If we're dealing with rumour...coronavirus outbreak in Edinburgh in February...etc. Stop trying to find rumour and misinformation to suit your cause as it really does you no favours and in fact dilutes everything you post as just point scoring tittle tattle.


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## drdel (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You really don't get it do you.
If England had it's own Government within the UK there would not be any problems.
Cameron started all of this by virtually turning Westminster into an English government.
May/Johnson have done nothing to stop it. In fact Johnson is currently giving all indications that he does not even understand how it works.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say but your relevant points are often lost among your constant 'chip on the shoulder' rhetoric. I just wonder how Scotland would be coping had it become totally separated from rUK and reliant on the 'wonderful' EU - see how Italy, Greece, Spain et al are being treated. You seem to wish to blame England for anything and everything without really recognising that it is the wealth of the whole of the UK that gives your population of 6mill the benefits of scale that being within the 70mill UK: Defence, Infrastructure, Finance, Tax Income etc. 

I happen to feel British first and English second and I respect that you see yourself as Scottish first but not British; but I don't see why you need to insult everything British and by implication me and my fellow Brits at any opportunity - its just tiresome.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Nadine Dorries - Health Minister - tweets a doctored and libelous video about Keir Starmer when he was DPP.  Pathetic and desperate by someone who might just be a little worried that in the HoC Starmer is matching up very well indeed against our PM.   Tweet now deleted...

May also be why Jacob Rees-Mogg is suggesting that MPs should return to the HoC - perhaps he is thinking that Johnson needs his backing choir and audience to be effective.  Well - who knows.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			That's the one. He also says the NHS had the capacity....... so why send old people back to the care homes to protect the NHS? I genuinely hope that I misheard the piece, because if I didn't I'm struggling to believe any govt would operate a policy that knowingly puts vulnerable people in harms way.
		
Click to expand...

Rationale appears to be that because UK was declared as being in Containment Phase, that meant that it was assumed that there would be no infection in any care homes. 

When spread within the community was spotted we shortly (how long?) afterwards moved to Delay Phase - when restrictions were applied in respect of access to care homes.  But of course it's too late then - if it's in the community it's most very probably going to be in the care homes.  Closing the barn door after the horse has bolted comes to mind (opposite of course).

I might suggest that we would have known from the experiences of such as Italy and Spain that everything possible should have been done* from the outset *to prevent the virus getting into care homes given the mayhem it would cause once in.  But we didn't.  We waited.  Until sadly it was too late - clearly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no English Government.
		
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though there is EVEL...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Just deflection.
I saw the video a while ago on facebook but it reappeared yesterday on twitter so unsure of origin but why not watch? I am expected to and do watch all the Govt propaganda/lies on a daily basis if I watch the news so why not see a different view - it's pretty short video and evidences boris's actual words and then disagree vehemently?
Not so much anti government but definitely anti Johnson, not because he isn't a character, just that he is not cut out to be a PM and proves that on an almost daily basis.
Watch the short video or else there's little point commenting.

Japan has more crowding than UK with about 125 million to our 67 million and their deaths are a mere fraction of ours.
		
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You have to research to see how many times Twitter posts or journalist were called hacks during the GE and Brexit debate or during the current crisis were called out by boris’s apologists.

To save you some time - never. 
The tune changes to suit the agenda.


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## Blue in Munich (May 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Food for thought, with the benefit of hindsight of course, but you really have to wonder why we took the path we did.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260568774329225217

Click to expand...

Perhaps you could gives a little bio on Mike Galsworthy, tells us what his political leanings and agenda are, to add context to the video?

The video itself is a masterpiece of editing, I'll give it that.


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## drdel (May 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rationale appears to be that because UK was declared as being in Containment Phase, that meant that it was assumed that there would be no infection in any care homes.

When spread within the community was spotted we shortly (how long?) afterwards moved to Delay Phase - when restrictions were applied in respect of access to care homes.  But of course it's too late then - if it's in the community it's most very probably going to be in the care homes.  Closing the barn door after the horse has bolted comes to mind (opposite of course).

I might suggest that we would have known from the experiences of such as Italy and Spain that everything possible should have been done* from the outset *to prevent the virus getting into care homes given the mayhem it would cause once in.  But we didn't.  We waited.  Until sadly it was too late - clearly.
		
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The clarity of 20/20 vision brought by  hindsight. You stated "...  everything possible should have been done* from the outset *to prevent the virus..." I'm curious how you decided when the date was that was the exact point of* "outset"* relevant to the vast range and diverse sizes of businesses and local authority run premises defined as 'care homes'.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps you could gives a little bio on Mike Galsworthy, tells us what his political leanings and agenda are, to add context to the video?

The video itself is a masterpiece of editing, I'll give it that.
		
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Galsworthy

Scroll down to political views, very first line is: Associated with the Labour Party. 

The video is well edited but unbiased it is not.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Might as well post no links and close the forum to debate, just make it a factual posting site!

Come on guys, let’s be honest, we all have our political bias’s and we all “like” what appeals to our own values.

If we are going down this path of background checks it’s going to be very boring on here and let’s be really honest, we had 1 poster who constantly posted pro tory twitter links during the GE and not once was he questioned on his motives.

We’re all adults, feel free to ignore the posts, sometimes they are posted for no more than to stimulate debate, raise a smile or simply because it appealed to the poster, it doesn’t make them right.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Might as well post no links and close the forum to debate, just make it a factual posting site!

Come on guys, let’s be honest, we all have our political bias’s and we all “like” what appeals to our own values.

If we are going down this path of background checks it’s going to be very boring on here and let’s be really honest, we had 1 poster who constantly posted pro tory twitter links during the GE and not once was he questioned on his motives.

We’re all adults, feel free to ignore the posts, sometimes they are posted for no more than to stimulate debate, raise a smile or simply because it appealed to the poster, it doesn’t make them right.
		
Click to expand...

Don't agree Paul, people are entitled to post links for whatever their own political bias is and should continue to do so, but equally others are entitled to call that into question from their own standpoint to show the flaws in it. For me that goes whether your leaning is Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green or monster raving looney party.

You are correct we're all adults and as such should expect our views to be questioned including the background of those in the creation of the videos or links. That's where the balanced debate comes from being able to accept that it's not agreeable to everyone. If everyone ignored everything that was opposed to their way of thinking we'd have a forum full of pointless conversations that just agree or never have any replies or debate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Don't agree Paul, people are entitled to post links for whatever their own political bias is, but equally others are entitled to call that into question from their own standpoint to show the flaws in it. For me that goes whether your leaning is Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green or monster raving looney party.

You are correct we're all adults and as such should expect our views to be questioned including the background of those in the creation of the videos or links. That's where the balanced debate comes from being able to accept that it's not agreeable to everyone.
		
Click to expand...

I’d say anyone with half a brain could see what that video is about, it should be took with a pinch of salt, I, and dare I say, most level headed people have no reason to wonder who the publisher was or his background, it was clear and obvious, we also potentially know Maxfli’s political bias, so why the need for him to possibly caveat his posts with attached information?


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d say anyone with half a brain could see what that video is about, it should be took with a pinch of salt, I, and dare I say, most level headed people have no reason to wonder who the publisher was or his background, it was clear and obvious, we also potentially know Maxfli’s political bias, so why the need for him to possibly caveat his posts with attached information?
		
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So because we know does that mean it shouldn't be questioned. Of course it doesn't especially when someone posts it on a discussion board such as this. Maxfli views again just because his posts have a left leaning does that mean someone that wants to question it shouldn't. Im sorry but if you think people should simply not question it because they know another posters leanings is ridiculous, as it leads back to my original point of reply it would equate to one sided agreement or a thread of posts that continues to to always fizzle out as nobody is able to question others.

By your own advice if you don't like others questioning it you are equally as entitled to ignore post that questions it or put the person on ignore. Its a free open forum and as such questioning each others known views on a post by post basis must and should remain.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You have to research to see how many times Twitter posts or journalist were called hacks during the GE and Brexit debate or during the current crisis were called out by boris’s apologists.

To save you some time - never.
The tune changes to suit the agenda.
		
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The banner that is across the vid right at the end is good enough for me to bin it. "Momentum." The far left group that ruined Labour. And edited for sound bites to increase impact...

I was very impressed by the NZ PM, and have been for a while, but when you see an opposition NZ MP putting a different slant on things you might be inclined to look further. I still think she's a very good PM, but I also think that every country's leader/govt has to a greater or lesser extent was left behind at the beginning of this crisis.

Have a look how every leader in every country has faired. They've all been slaughtered to an extent over the handling of the crisis. Quite rightly, no one in just about every country is willing to accept the numbers of deaths we're seeing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So because we know does that mean it shouldn't be questioned. Of course it doesn't especially when someone posts it on a discussion board such as this. Maxfli views again just because his posts have a left leaning does that mean someone that wants to question it shouldn't. Im sorry but if you think people should simply not question it because they know another posters leanings is ridiculous, as it leads back to my original point of reply it would equate to one sided agreement or a thread of posts that continues to to always fizzle out as nobody is able to question others.

By your own advice if you don't like others questioning it you are equally as entitled to ignore post that questions it or put the person on ignore. Its a free open forum and as such questioning each others known views on a post by post basis must and should remain.
		
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It’s the sad reality lately of people playing the posters, just look how people react to Doon or Silh, it’s got to the point of posters slagging them off publicly to each other and not the actual post.

None of us are perfect, but we should at least try and be balanced.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The banner that is across the vid right at the end is good enough for me to bin it. "Momentum." The far left group that ruined Labour. And edited for sound bites to increase impact...

I was very impressed by the NZ PM, and have been for a while, but when you see an opposition NZ MP putting a different slant on things you might be inclined to look further. I still think she's a very good PM, but I also think that every country's leader/govt has to a greater or lesser extent was left behind at the beginning of this crisis.

Have a look how every leader in every country has faired. They've all been slaughtered to an extent over the handling of the crisis. Quite rightly, no one in just about every country is willing to accept the numbers of deaths we're seeing.
		
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Totally agree and instead of answering the post the way you did we get the double standards wheeled out and a background check on the author.


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## pendodave (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Don't agree Paul, people are entitled to post links for whatever their own political bias is and should continue to do so, but equally others are entitled to call that into question from their own standpoint to show the flaws in it. For me that goes whether your leaning is Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green or monster raving looney party.

You are correct we're all adults and as such should expect our views to be questioned including the background of those in the creation of the videos or links. That's where the balanced debate comes from being able to accept that it's not agreeable to everyone. If everyone ignored everything that was opposed to their way of thinking we'd have a forum full of pointless conversations that just agree or never have any replies or debate.
		
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There's more than a hint of playing the man rather than the ball here.
Quibble about the information provided, don't just say "he's a leftie, therefore it's nonsense".
Not sure if that's what you intend, but it's the impression that you give this observer.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s the sad reality lately of people playing the posters, just look how people react to Doon or Silh, it’s got to the point of posters slagging them off publicly to each other and not the actual post.

None of us are perfect, but we should at least try and be balanced.
		
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Exactly and to remain balanced we have to accept whatever we post can and will be questioned. Including questioning the validity or background of those creating things in circulation


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## pendodave (May 14, 2020)

Moving on slightly, as an even handed sort of guy I flicked onto the telegraph website just now.
I can't read the details, but they are really pushing the " not enough people have had this, lockdown was a waste of time" narrative .
Slightly feel of cognitive dissonance given their readership demographic.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

pendodave said:



			There's more than a hint of playing the man rather than the ball here.
Quibble about the information provided, don't just say "he's a leftie, therefore it's nonsense".
Not sure if that's what you intend, but it's the impression that you give this observer.
		
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You've read that totally wrong then because I have no issue with the poster and have often agreed with him on many subjects. I wasn't calling Paul a leftie and I didn't refer to his personal political leanings so no idea where you read that and my opening paragraph clearly states doesn't matter what anyone political leaning is, so looks to me you've had a mare with that assumption.

I've said left, right, centre or whatever we should accept whatever we post is open to question including its original source.

So im sorry but you've totally misread what's actually written and found some bizarre tangent to take it on....


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree and instead of answering the post the way you did we get the double standards wheeled out and a background check on the author.

Click to expand...

I did research the author, and I do know how much his politics have shifted further and further left in the last 4 years. If he'd been more of a centrist and it didn't have the Momentum banner I might have given it more credibility. But it doesn't take being a brain surgeon to know that every political leader is getting a huge amount of stick at present.

Having questions posed as Charlie Stayt did this morning on the breakfast news is exactly the right way to do it. None of the questions were designed to trip the guy up. They were simple, transparent questions that we could all understand. And it didn't need clever dick questions to trip the Minister up, he achieved that quite admirably by his own foot in the mouth responses.


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## patricks148 (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Might as well post no links and close the forum to debate, just make it a factual posting site!

Come on guys, let’s be honest, we all have our political bias’s and we all “like” what appeals to our own values.

If we are going down this path of background checks it’s going to be very boring on here and let’s be really honest, we had 1 poster who constantly posted pro tory twitter links during the GE and not once was he questioned on his motives.

We’re all adults, feel free to ignore the posts, sometimes they are posted for no more than to stimulate debate, raise a smile or simply because it appealed to the poster, it doesn’t make them right.
		
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i know who you mean, Pretty much on a daily basis, mostly downright lies, i don't remember to many questioning any of them in fact there were plenty of likes for them and funny enough a few by the people who are questioning this one...  who'd have thought


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I did research the author, and I do know how much his politics have shifted further and further left in the last 4 years. If he'd been more of a centrist and it didn't have the Momentum banner I might have given it more credibility. But it doesn't take being a brain surgeon to know that every political leader is getting a huge amount of stick at present.

Having questions posed as Charlie Stayt did this morning on the breakfast news is exactly the right way to do it. None of the questions were designed to trip the guy up. They were simple, transparent questions that we could all understand. And it didn't need clever dick questions to trip the Minister up, he achieved that quite admirably by his own foot in the mouth responses.
		
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You got further than me, the momentum banner killed it stone dead.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nadine Dorries - Health Minister - tweets a doctored and libelous video about Keir Starmer when he was DPP.  Pathetic and desperate by someone who might just be a little worried that in the HoC Starmer is matching up very well indeed against our PM.   Tweet now deleted...

May also be why Jacob Rees-Mogg is suggesting that MPs should return to the HoC - perhaps he is thinking that Johnson needs his backing choir and audience to be effective.  Well - who knows.
		
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Funnily enough she’s deleted the tweet and Caufield who retweeted it has closed her account.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Funnily enough she’s deleted the tweet and Caufield who retweeted it has closed her account.
		
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Must've still had thousands of views before being deleted. I'd like to see Dorries & Caufield held to account for their actions but we know they won't be. 

Have to say depsite everything going on  including the slurs people are trying to raise, I've been hugely impressed by Starmer so far in how he has spoken and his interactions in PMQs, could potentially be the start of a very good opposition.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No Doon I very much get it and you using Cameron is pure deflection as that was in 2016, yet independence vote was 2 years prior which you always go on about, I may not have been here all that long but your posts have much more basis on what happened and you lost in 2014 than what Cameron did in 2016.

Yet there is my point in your post your stating its England's fault and no accountability for your own posts, nobody makes you post constant anti English guff thats purely your own choice to do so.... Be careful not to fall off that high horse I hear its a long fall from such a self imposed lofty position.
		
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Goodness me....Where have I said that it is England's fault 

 Are you even aware that Johnson and The Tory party are  UK Government institutions within the UK.
To make it simple for you,  Johnson broadcast information UK wide, without a disclaimer that, if the residents of NI, Wales and Scotland had followed would have put their lives at risk and lead to their arrest and possible imprisonment. Is that something that you would support.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			The clarity of 20/20 vision brought by  hindsight. You stated "...  everything possible should have been done* from the outset *to prevent the virus..." I'm curious how you decided when the date was that was the exact point of* "outset"* relevant to the vast range and diverse sizes of businesses and local authority run premises defined as 'care homes'.
		
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I'm just thinking that the vulnerability of the elderly in care homes was surely obvious and well understood  - and given what was happening in Italy and Spain we perhaps should have just locked down care homes during that initial Containment Phase (what I mean by 'from the outset') to mitigate the risk as much as possible.

Unfortunately from what I am hearing it seems we are following a similar approach at the moment.  Open things up and only when a second spike appears to be happening *then *apply appropriate measures.  That is fine and it may be the only approach.  However, the risk of that is clear - as it is likely to be the case that when a new spike is noticed, it may be too late to stop it unless we have robust and efficient testing; contact tracing, and immediate lock-down measures ready and waiting to be applied - and a population ready and primed to accept immediate imposition of further lockdown. 

So when I ask for the lessons we have learnt, I simply want to hear the government tell us of their learning or mistakes made - to tell us, given the learning and mistakes, pretty precisely what the strategy will be when a second spike is detected in an area or wider.  And telling me it'll be a 'whack-a-mole' strategy doesn't tell me how.


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## Slab (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me....Where have I said that it is England's fault

Are you even aware that Johnson and The Tory party are  UK Government institutions within the UK.
To make it simple for you,  Johnson broadcast information UK wide, without a disclaimer that, if the residents of NI, Wales and Scotland had followed would have put their lives at risk and lead to their arrest and possible imprisonment. Is that something that you would support. 

Click to expand...

You have to imagine that by now everyone is Scotland is aware that the lockdown rules differ from those in England. I mean i'm 10,000km away and fully aware the rules diverged recently 
So I suspect pretty low odds that folks don’t know... oh and arrest for a breach is by no means a foregone conclusion as you suggest (why not just pop the word ‘could’ in there and it really doesn’t lessen your message/point… but does make it accurate)  _could _put lives at risk, _could _lead to arrest


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me....Where have I said that it is England's fault



Are you even aware that Johnson and The Tory party are UK Government institutions within the UK.

To make it simple for you, Johnson broadcast information UK wide, without a disclaimer that, if the residents of NI, Wales and Scotland had followed would have put their lives at risk and lead to their arrest and possible imprisonment. Is that something that you would support. 

Click to expand...

Perhaps you should try reading nearly everything you post which is littered with anti English rhetoric..

Am I aware, unless I've been living in a cave im pretty sure I'm well aware of the country's political situation and how it works. Certainly don't need your patronising spoon-fed making it easier description, but thanks for assuming I'm thick and don't understand like you👍🏻

I've also never said I support any of the lifting of restrictions or what Boris said on Sunday, I actually am on record here on the forum stating how ambiguous and unclear it came across thus I waited to see full document release before deciding what my own actions further would be. So no need to ask  me what I would or wouldn't support, as the only thing I support is what's is best for the people as whole, and I even acknowledged on another thread how I felt Nicola had best intentions for Scotland which I'd fully support 👍🏻

As for further interactions on this with you I'm out, 👍🏻


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Slab said:



			You have to imagine that by now everyone is Scotland is aware that the lockdown rules differ from those in England. I mean i'm 10,000km away and fully aware the rules diverged recently
So I suspect pretty low odds that folks don’t know... oh and arrest for a breach is by no means a foregone conclusion as you suggest (why not just pop the word ‘could’ in there and it really doesn’t lessen your message/point… but does make it accurate)  _could _put lives at risk, _could _lead to arrest
		
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Thing is - many in Scotland have no time whatsoever for the Scottish FM (not only Yoonies) and may choose to not believe a word she says (or if they did they'd deny it  ) - possibly choosing instead to follow the guidance from Westminster.  I only half jest.


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			You know full well that all Ministers can do is mobilise the resources they do not control how the medical profession and others take up and use the capacity made available.
...
		
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Er...Actually, No I don't! They keep being 'political', something they should avoid in these sort of situations!
Then they shouldn't make big announcements about targets that are 'daft', then fudge subsequent figures indicating 'failure' to cover their backsides! Then make another 'daft' target to distract from the legitimate criticism of not meeting their first 'target'! But that's probably something they can't help doing - it's just the way their minds work!



drdel said:



			...
Do you want compulsory random testing?
		
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I'm not opposed to that - at least if it reduces 'R'! I'm sure it was considered - and probably rejected as 'not "cost-effective" ' The 'targeted' testing that is being proposed via the app seems like it would be more cost/resource effective though - but that's something for experts (the likes of SAGE) to consider, not me! Anything that effectively combats the virus, and reduces the death count (and keeping the NHS from being overloaded) is fine by me, which is why 'lock-down' is acceptable - and why I get angry at those who flout the SD 'rules'!


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Try and understand this: I'm not interested in your opinion on that issue, I wasnt discussing it and you decided to interject my post with it, my post asked someone else their views on how logistics could have been improved to create more testing facities. Keep on about missing targets if it suits you but dont drag me it.   How can I copout of an issue I'm not posting about 🙄
		
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Then resist replying! But you can't! A classic case of (chronic) Last Word Syndrome! 
Resist!


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Then resist replying! But you can't! A classic case of (chronic) Last Word Syndrome!
Resist!
		
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Complete Twaddle Foxy. You have been calling me out for not commenting on testing numbers when I wasn't even discussing them.  I don't want the last word, I just want you to stop attempting to put words into my mouth.
Resist yourself old boy


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Complete Twaddle Foxy. You have been calling me out for not commenting on testing numbers when I wasn't even discussing them.  I don't want the last word, I just want you to stop attempting to put words into my mouth.
Resist yourself old boy
		
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Twaddle indeed - on your part! Your selection of 'testing numbers' was merely an excuse! Resist your LWS and the 'disease' evaporates!


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## Swinglowandslow (May 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nadine Dorries - Health Minister - tweets a doctored and libelous video about Keir Starmer when he was DPP.  Pathetic and desperate by someone who might just be a little worried that in the HoC Starmer is matching up very well indeed against our PM.   Tweet now deleted...

May also be why Jacob Rees-Mogg is suggesting that MPs should return to the HoC - perhaps he is thinking that Johnson needs his backing choir and audience to be effective.  Well - who knows.
		
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Don't see what any of what you've written has to do with corona virus😀
Got your spade again?😊


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Well Scotland are doing everything right and the only reason the R number is higher is because we're so in front of them on the Covid timeline! Keep moving that out to explain the R rate. Can't get my head around how a population of 6m, and so spread are still having a high rate of infection...

I'm only saying that in a response to his attitude (them and us) and really shouldn't but patience runs thin sometimes.
		
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Maybe there are even more people in Scotland ignoring their leader than there are in England. They have history of ignoring the SNP.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Just deflection.
I saw the video a while ago on facebook but it reappeared yesterday on twitter so unsure of origin but why not watch? I am expected to and do watch all the Govt propaganda/lies on a daily basis if I watch the news so why not see a different view - it's pretty short video and evidences boris's actual words and then disagree vehemently?
Not so much anti government but definitely anti Johnson, not because he isn't a character, just that he is not cut out to be a PM and proves that on an almost daily basis.
Watch the short video or else there's little point *commenting.*

*Japan has more crowding than UK with about 125 million to our 67 million and their deaths are a mere fraction of ours*.
		
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Yes, you're right about Japan, and it is puzzling. I cannot find out much about it and why their figures are what they are.Its not as if they have taken draconian lockdown measures, in fact, as far as I can tell, they have been a lot more lax than Europe ( until recently), which rather makes it puzzling.
It doesn't seem down to any of their Governments  initiatives.
Saw a comment that their non-shaking of hands culture ( bowing instead) may be something to do with it!!?
Don't know. However the last chart I saw showed their graphs rising- peak still to come.
Don't suppose ethnicity comes into it?


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle indeed - on your part! Your selection of 'testing numbers' was merely an excuse! Resist your LWS and the 'disease' evaporates!
		
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Twaddle, I'm not interest in your silly game playing.
Go away.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't see what any of what you've written has to do with corona virus😀
Got your spade again?😊
		
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I do tend to think that attempts by a government health minster to undermine the leader of the opposition as he is asking our PM actually quite basic questions about his handling of possibly the greatest UK health issue of modern times is worthy of note.  But I shan't mention it further on this thread.


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## ColchesterFC (May 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, you're right about Japan, and it is puzzling. I cannot find out much about it and why their figures are what they are.Its not as if they have taken draconian lockdown measures, in fact, as far as I can tell, they have been a lot more lax than Europe ( until recently), which rather makes it puzzling.
It doesn't seem down to any of their Governments  initiatives.
Saw a comment that their n*on-shaking of hands culture ( bowing instead) may be something to do with it!!?*
Don't know. However the last chart I saw showed their graphs rising- peak still to come.
Don't suppose ethnicity comes into it?
		
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Also a lot of people in Japan wear masks regularly anyway so that could also be helping keep the numbers down.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2020)

I get so frustrated at times listening to government ministers being questioned - not (always) because they don't answer the question - but when they don't really address the important issue underlying the questioning.

So this morning Brandon Lewis was being interviewed on Today about care homes - given things are currently dire.  After the interview was over I was left thinking - Well if the government did all the right things at the right time for care homes, and always had care homes as a focus - then what the hell has gone wrong...?  Is that it - nothing different could have been done?

At some point the virus will be under control in the community and in the care home setting.  But it is highly probable that infections in the community will start to increase again.  What I want to hear from the government is what the government will do *differently *- what will they tell care homes to do differently - what do care homes have to do in respect of preparation for when that increase in infections is detected.

But at the moment, as this morning from Brandon Lewis,  all I am hearing on this is ministers saying that for care homes they did all the right things at the right time.  And that doesn't give me great confidence.  They surely *must *know what preparations for the future must be put in place by care homes asap, and what the government *must *do differently.  Not hearing enough of it at the moment, and from some right wing outlets we seem to be hearing less on that at the moment than we are hearing and seeing finger pointing at teachers and the teaching unions.

What was done back February and early March clearly didn't work for care homes and their elderly residents.  Just tell us where things could have been done better, and because of that next time we'll do it this way.  That's all.  That's openness, honesty and clarity.


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## Wolf (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get so frustrated at times listening to government ministers being questioned - not (always) because they don't answer the question - but when they don't really address the important issue underlying the questioning.

So this morning Brandon Lewis was being interviewed on Today about care homes - given things are currently dire.  After the interview was over I was left thinking - Well if the government did all the right things at the right time for care homes, and always had care homes as a focus - then what the hell has gone wrong...?  Is that it - nothing different could have been done?

At some point the virus will be under control in the community and in the care home setting.  But it is highly probable that infections in the community will start to increase again.  What I want to hear from the government is what the government will do *differently *- what will they tell care homes to do differently - what do care homes have to do in respect of preparation for when that increase in infections is detected.

But at the moment, as this morning from Brandon Lewis,  all I am hearing on this is ministers saying that for care homes they did all the right things at the right time.  And that doesn't give me great confidence.  They surely *must *know what preparations for the future must be put in place by care homes asap, and what the government *must *do differently.  Not hearing enough of it at the moment, and from some right wing outlets we seem to be hearing less on that at the moment than we are hearing and seeing finger pointing at teachers and the teaching unions.

What was done back February and early March clearly didn't work for care homes and their elderly residents.  Just tell us where things could have been done better, and because of that next time we'll do it this way.  That's all.  That's openness, honesty and clarity.
		
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A big issue a hell of a lot of care homes need to address during and after his period is to start acting ultimately as care homes and not businesses. 

I'm not for one second defending the government here as there is clearly a lot of areas they need to improve and be more transparent on with what's happening within the care homes but there is a huge portion of care homes that simply don't provide anywhere near enough actual care or provision of equipment to staff and residents alike because ultimately they're a profit making business. Obviously this is a generalisation as there will be some fantastic ones out there, but my own experiences of them is not a good one. 

I'd personally like to see a full review of care homes, how they're run and what should be expected as care standards for residents, staff and more accountability for anyone not meeting those standards. Including better education & qualifications for the staff. As part of that review I'd like to see better government infrastructure & input into these areas with more transparency, future planning and guidance to help care homes.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2020)

After watching QT last night it seems like the Government is persuing the same line with test numbers and not being honest with the figures.

I wonder if they follow the same process with the bowel cancer poo test...…..send out 500,000 get back 300,000 but say that 500,000 have been tested.


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## rudebhoy (May 15, 2020)

Wolf said:



			A big issue a hell of a lot of care homes need to address during and after his period is to start acting ultimately as care homes and not businesses.

I'm not for one second defending the government here as there is clearly a lot of areas they need to improve and be more transparent on with what's happening within the care homes but there is a huge portion of care homes that simply don't provide anywhere near enough actual care or provision of equipment to staff and residents alike because ultimately they're a profit making business. Obviously this is a generalisation as there will be some fantastic ones out there, but my own experiences of them is not a good one.

I'd personally like to see a full review of care homes, how they're run and what should be expected as care standards for residents, staff and more accountability for anyone not meeting those standards. Including better education & qualifications for the staff. As part of that review I'd like to see better government infrastructure & input into these areas with more transparency, future planning and guidance to help care homes.
		
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there are some good care homes, but there are also some terrible ones out there. I went round quite a few trying to find somewhere suitable for my dad. At least two of them, the smell of urine hit you as soon as you walked in. The staff were disinterested, you tell that for some of them, it was the only job they could get, it was minimum wage, and they hated it. But the care home was still charging £650 a week (this was 7 years ago).

fortunately we did find a really good one, but the standard does vary dramatically.


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## Wolf (May 15, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			there are some good care homes, but there are also some terrible ones out there. I went round quite a few trying to find somewhere suitable for my dad. At least two of them, the smell of urine hit you as soon as you walked in. The staff were disinterested, you tell that for some of them, it was the only job they could get, it was minimum wage, and they hated it. But the care home was still charging £650 a week (this was 7 years ago).

fortunately we did find a really good one, but the standard does vary dramatically.
		
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There in lies my problem with care homes. As I said my post was a generalisation and I'm sure there are many good ones but my experience of them is it seems far more are bad ones and more about money than care.

My nan (mums side) was in 3 different care homes it was only the 3rd that was any good, despite the previous 2 having been visited and seemingly good, the actual care and provision after they'd been moved there was awful. We learned from that with Dad's mum, but again so many bad ones visited before finding a good one. Only then to find that one ended up being closed because they had been investigated for malpractices and treatment of residents & was ultimately closed down due to deaths by neglect.. 

The other issue like you say in staff, I know so many people from school that work in care homes because they didn't get decent grades and couldn't get any other jobs so fall into doing it because they can't get anything else. Even my MiL is considering going to do it for a couple of years as she sees it as an easy way to get a job, yet has no interest in caring, that's not a good thing imo.

I'd like to see proper qualifications & pay for them as hopefully that would be partially a step to improvement of care quality and understanding. That's why I like to see the government totally revamp this area including their own remit and give all of the countries people in care better.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 15, 2020)

Wolf said:



			There in lies my problem with care homes. As I said my post was a generalisation and I'm sure there are many good ones but my experience of them is it seems far more are bad ones and more about money than care.

My nan (mums side) was in 3 different care homes it was only the 3rd that was any good, despite the previous 2 having been visited and seemingly good, the actual care and provision after they'd been moved there was awful. We learned from that with Dad's mum, but again so many bad ones visited before finding a good one. Only then to find that one ended up being closed because they had been investigated for malpractices and treatment of residents & was ultimately closed down due to deaths by neglect.. 

The other issue like you say in staff, I know so many people from school that work in care homes because they didn't get decent grades and couldn't get any other jobs so fall into doing it because they can't get anything else. Even my MiL is considering going to do it for a couple of years as she sees it as an easy way to get a job, yet has no interest in caring, that's not a good thing imo.

I'd like to see proper qualifications & pay for them as hopefully that would be partially a step to improvement of care quality and understanding. That's why I like to see the government totally revamp this area including their own remit and give all of the countries people in care better.
		
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My dad is in one at the moment and I can only echo everyone else's experience.
It does bring the question up of whether they or any form of care/health provision should be for profit.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 15, 2020)

From what I understand of the coronavirus issue in care homes was that at any one time there are a lot of patients in the NHS who are waiting on care places. These people were moved quickly out of hospitals in care homes fur their own safety but it seems many of them either has Covid-19 or it was brought in during transit which led to the super charging of the issue in care homes. It's very sad but maybe this is one area where hindsight is a great tool. I'm sure they won't make that mistake again.


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## drdel (May 15, 2020)

We need to be honest. The care home business in the UK has been pretty dire for a long time before Covid. Staff are usually low paid and their buildings are commonly old large houses ill equipped for medical purposes. Generally They have been run at minimum cost by private companies and LAs: holding any inventory was not a priority.

The virus has exposed the failings, its a failings in society and Governments of all colours

At least they are recieving PPE and support for free but you cannot change the infastucture quickly.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 15, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			there are some good care homes, but there are also some terrible ones out there. I went round quite a few trying to find somewhere suitable for my dad. At least two of them, the smell of urine hit you as soon as you walked in. The staff were disinterested, you tell that for some of them, it was the only job they could get, it was minimum wage, and they hated it. But the care home was still charging £650 a week (this was 7 years ago).

fortunately we did find a really good one, but the standard does vary dramatically.
		
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One of our staff is a former care home worker. When we started looking for my MiL, planning ahead as we are close to needing one but not quite there yet, she said if you walk through the door and smell urine then turn back around and don't bother looking any further. The only time it is excusable is when the trolley is going past with the sheets in. If you catch them at sheet changing time then it is inevitable.

Drdel makes a great point, too many are old houses that are not really designed for purpose. There is a recently built, designed for dementia patient home near to me that is different class. Lots of light, wide corridors, windows to open and let air in, multiple lounges so all are not crammed in one place, and many other excellent features. So much better than the other homes we saw that are converted, 100yr old houses.

Surely the issue with care homes is that you have staff, suppliers and in the early stages visitors, going in an out. The residents are in the most vulnerable group. As soon as it gets in it will spread and have a huge impact whereas a similar university halls for example may get it and the students may barely notice. Care homes in future may have to go to a severe level of lockdown at the first sign of a virus, people including family who get aggressive about restrictions put in place will have to accept this.


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## Mudball (May 15, 2020)

A story from another island nation. You can claim that they have more sheep than people, but equally it is not led by a Donkey. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260568774329225217


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			A story from another island nation. You can claim that they have more sheep than people, but equally it is not led by a Donkey.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260568774329225217

Click to expand...

*YAWN*

See post 1802 and the subsequent discussion...


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## Mudball (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			*YAWN*

See post 1802 and the subsequent discussion...
		
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had not realised this was a repost..  apologies.   So what was the final verdict.   NZers are better behaved than Brits.  Or that NZ has a smaller population than UK and hence the rules dont apply


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## Wolf (May 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			had not realised this was a repost..  apologies.  * So what was the final verdict*.   NZers are better behaved than Brits.  Or that NZ has a smaller population than UK and hence the rules dont apply
		
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Why not read back over what's already written rather than dragging it up again


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of our staff is a former care home worker. When we started looking for my MiL, planning ahead as we are close to needing one but not quite there yet, she said if you walk through the door and smell urine then turn back around and don't bother looking any further. The only time it is excusable is when the trolley is going past with the sheets in. If you catch them at sheet changing time then it is inevitable.

Drdel makes a great point, too many are old houses that are not really designed for purpose. There is a recently built, designed for dementia patient home near to me that is different class. Lots of light, wide corridors, windows to open and let air in, multiple lounges so all are not crammed in one place, and many other excellent features. So much better than the other homes we saw that are converted, 100yr old houses.

Surely the issue with care homes is that you have staff, suppliers and in the early stages visitors, going in an out. The residents are in the most vulnerable group. As soon as it gets in it will spread and have a huge impact whereas a similar university halls for example may get it and the students may barely notice. Care homes in future may have to go to a severe level of lockdown at the first sign of a virus, people including family who get aggressive about restrictions put in place will have to accept this.
		
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When I was checking out my Mum's care home we had a few strong endorsements from friends who have/had their parent in there.
The manager showed us around without too much BS but he suddenly just left us to attend to a dementia resident who was starting to get distressed. Came back 5 minutes later without an apology. That sealed it for me.
Beginning to look like the Skye home has opened a can of worms. Massive company 200+ homes in the UK with big dividend payments to investors.


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## drdel (May 15, 2020)

Charities are starting to operate like businesses, but, at the end of the day, it's not a good idea to expect businesses (care homes) to be like charities.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2020)

Wolf said:



			A big issue a hell of a lot of care homes need to address during and after his period is to start acting ultimately as care homes and not businesses.

I'm not for one second defending the government here as there is clearly a lot of areas they need to improve and be more transparent on with what's happening within the care homes but there is a huge portion of care homes that simply don't provide anywhere near enough actual care or provision of equipment to staff and residents alike because ultimately they're a profit making business. Obviously this is a generalisation as there will be some fantastic ones out there, but my own experiences of them is not a good one.

I'd personally like to see a full review of care homes, how they're run and what should be expected as care standards for residents, staff and more accountability for anyone not meeting those standards. Including better education & qualifications for the staff. As part of that review I'd like to see better government infrastructure & input into these areas with more transparency, future planning and guidance to help care homes.
		
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Yes - a full review required - that can come later.  What surely has to happen now is that the government sets out new mandatory requirements for all care homes in the context of protecting their residents in the event of a second 'spike' in infections in the community. 

The government should also make clear what _*it *_did wrong - or that *it *could have done better if they can't face telling us the did anything wrong. 

When something goes wrong in my work I can only have confidence that the problem has been addressed and unlikely to be repeated, when I hear those responsible for the problem admitting their errors, mistakes or incorrect assumptions made - and what they'll do differently next time.  I would have zero confidence if all I heard were denials or an insistence that all was done correctly and to the best of their understanding.   I need to hear what has to be changed - what will be done differently.  I heard none of that from Brandon Lewis this morning.  He simply seemed hell-bent on not admitting that the government made any mistakes or made any incorrect assumptions; or drew the wrong conclusion or chose the wrong approach from the guidance offered.  

Something has gone badly wrong.  So what is it? And how is the government going to ensure that it doesn't happen again as a result of a second 'spike'.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			Charities are starting to operate like businesses, but, at the end of the day, it's not a good idea to expect businesses (care homes) to be like charities.
		
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I know this will be against most people on heres belief but I would have it under some form of state control.


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## IanM (May 15, 2020)

The will be lots of _"could have done betters" _- it's called hindsight.  What do you expect?  But as you say, demonstrate the learning please HM Government.

Meanwhile the Welsh First Minister is publishing his exit strategy.  I guess he will when Sturgeon tells him what to say and he finds his crayons!  I was going to type his name and I honestly can't remember it.

His strategy will be - demand more cash from Westminster, waste it and then blame London for not giving him enough.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 15, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			My dad is in one at the moment and I can only echo everyone else's experience.
It does bring the question up of whether they or any form of care/health provision should be for profit.
		
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It shouldn't be , period. Care  homes should be an "arm " of the NHS.
I don't mean the NHS should just take it on as part of their costs and that it is as free as the existing parts of the NHS. No, it needs a funding structure worked out, but the running of care homes in terms of standards, quality of staff etc should be under the NHS.
The businesses have made enough out of old people's problems and their health should not be a source of profit for any in a caring society.
So, in effect, nationalise them - and before anyone starts telling me how nationalised bodies are not run efficiently , then please define efficiently.
Do you mean making a profit, before ensuring proper standards? 
Or suddenly closing when the profits dry up and the "business " decides to go into administration? ( too bad for the old folk, can't help what might happen to them)
There are many on here blaming the government for the. Covid- in -care homes -problem, but who may baulk  at the word nationalisation , but if covid has proved anything, it is that some institutions of a civilised country should be owned , controlled and run by the Country, for the Country.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - a full review required - that can come later.  What surely has to happen now is that the government sets out new mandatory requirements for all care homes in the context of protecting their residents in the event of a second 'spike' in infections in the community.

The government should also make clear what _*it *_did wrong - or that *it *could have done better if they can't face telling us the did anything wrong.

When something goes wrong in my work I can only have confidence that the problem has been addressed and unlikely to be repeated, when I hear those responsible for the problem admitting their errors, mistakes or incorrect assumptions made - and what they'll do differently next time.  I would have zero confidence if all I heard were denials or an insistence that all was done correctly and to the best of their understanding.   I need to hear what has to be changed - what will be done differently.  I heard none of that from Brandon Lewis this morning.  He simply seemed hell-bent on not admitting that the government made any mistakes or made any incorrect assumptions; or drew the wrong conclusion or chose the wrong approach from the guidance offered. 

Something has gone badly wrong.  So what is it? And how is the government going to ensure that it doesn't happen again as a result of a second 'spike'.
		
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I don't disagree with pretty much everything you're asking for but I do feel your constant push for instant answers is just plain ridiculous. We want the same outcomes but we have to be realistic about how and when we achieve them.

We know from the mortality rate that something went very wrong but what it was, we don't know.

Let's make a few assumptions, dangerous things but bear with me; the 'knowledge' of the disease and how well it transmits was sketchy at best at the turn of the year. Diagnosing something that doesn't always manifest itself very quickly. We could add to the list but let's not stray too far from the known into the unknown. And bearing in mind the number of (still) unknowns, is it wise to push for instant answers?

With the above in mind, the instant answer is to default to the most stringent isolation for the most vulnerable.

But a question? Why does the government hold primary responsibility for what might have gone wrong when the vast majority of Homes are privately owned? We've seen the strategy and guidelines change, and I expect as more is known of the disease, those guidelines will change again.

Ultimately there will be a review, no doubt a Commons Select Committee or Lord XXX(Chilcott-type) Inquiry. It won't happen quick enough for what is happening now, realistically that's impossible. But, equally, I very much doubt any Minister will wilfully make a decision that costs lives. And there's a number of reasons why, 1) who would morally do that? 2) Who would knowing that they're under the microscope by the media, the opposition and the electorate? Who would knowing that there will almost certainly be a very in-depth, post-epidemic?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2020)

IanM said:



			The will be lots of _"could have done betters" _- it's called hindsight.  What do you expect?  But as you say, demonstrate the learning please HM Government.

Meanwhile the Welsh First Minister is publishing his exit strategy.  I guess he will when Sturgeon tells him what to say and he finds his crayons!  I was going to type his name and I honestly can't remember it.

His strategy will be - demand more cash from Westminster, waste it and then blame London for not giving him enough.
		
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Heard it this afternoon and it sounds pretty sensible to me.

BTW have you any idea how arrogant your post sounds.
Scotland, NI and Wales are standing together against a UK government that seems to only listen to the views of one country.

BTW2 Sturgeon is polling over 80% support in Scotland for her lead on Covid19
How is Johnson polling? last time I looked it was 54% slightly more than half polled had any faith in him.


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## rudebhoy (May 15, 2020)




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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It shouldn't be , period. Care  homes should be an "arm " of the NHS.
I don't mean the NHS should just take it on as part of their costs and that it is as free as the existing parts of the NHS. No, it needs a funding structure worked out, but the running of care homes in terms of standards, quality of staff etc should be under the NHS.
The businesses have made enough out of old people's problems and their health should not be a source of profit for any in a caring society.
So, in effect, nationalise them - and before anyone starts telling me how nationalised bodies are not run efficiently , then please define efficiently.
Do you mean making a profit, before ensuring proper standards?
Or suddenly closing when the profits dry up and the "business " decides to go into administration? ( too bad for the old folk, can't help what might happen to them)
There are many on here blaming the government for the. Covid- in -care homes -problem, but who may baulk  at the word nationalisation , but if covid has proved anything, it is that some institutions of a civilised country should be owned , controlled and run by the Country, for the Country.
		
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Current funding for elderly care is over £16bn but, sadly, a significant portion of that goes to private homes, which look to make a profit from it. And knowing how businesses are structured to make a profit, there's a fair chunk of that disappears to the owners by way of dividends. A well run business will make a gross profit of over 40%, net around 10%.

Nationalise all the homes and you're talking about a lot of money being available that is not being spent on the people that matter.


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## Blue in Munich (May 15, 2020)

Scotland's much tighter and more beneficial lockdown possibly lasting just a week then?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52678392


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Heard it this afternoon and it sounds pretty sensible to me.

BTW have you any idea how arrogant your post sounds.
Scotland, NI and Wales are standing together against a UK government that seems to only listen to the views of one country.

BTW2 Sturgeon is polling over 80% support in Scotland for her lead on Covid19
How is Johnson polling? last time I looked it was 54% slightly more than half polled had any faith in him.
		
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Wrong, Wales is pretty similar to England apart from opening garden centers before us and Scotland appears to be changing its mind, would be good if you stopped your anti everything policy.  I presume you are happy with the U.K. Governments financial package to help keep Scotland and the rest of us afloat.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't disagree with pretty much everything you're asking for but I do feel your constant push for instant answers is just plain ridiculous. We want the same outcomes but we have to be realistic about how and when we achieve them.

We know from the mortality rate that something went very wrong but what it was, we don't know.

Let's make a few assumptions, dangerous things but bear with me; the 'knowledge' of the disease and how well it transmits was sketchy at best at the turn of the year. Diagnosing something that doesn't always manifest itself very quickly. We could add to the list but let's not stray too far from the known into the unknown. And bearing in mind the number of (still) unknowns, is it wise to push for instant answers?

With the above in mind, the instant answer is to default to the most stringent isolation for the most vulnerable.

But a question? Why does the government hold primary responsibility for what might have gone wrong when the vast majority of Homes are privately owned? We've seen the strategy and guidelines change, and I expect as more is known of the disease, those guidelines will change again.

Ultimately there will be a review, no doubt a Commons Select Committee or Lord XXX(Chilcott-type) Inquiry. It won't happen quick enough for what is happening now, realistically that's impossible. But, equally, I very much doubt any Minister will wilfully make a decision that costs lives. And there's a number of reasons why, 1) who would morally do that? 2) Who would knowing that they're under the microscope by the media, the opposition and the electorate? Who would knowing that there will almost certainly be a very in-depth, post-epidemic?
		
Click to expand...

Not asking for answers - just a bit of openness and honesty about what everyone could have done better or differently - and clarity on how the lessons leant are informing a plan to apply these lessons now - in advance of any second spike. To try and minimise the risk of it happening again, and the impact if it does.


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not asking for answers - just a bit of openness and honesty about what everyone could have done better or differently - and clarity on how the lessons leant are informing a plan to apply these lessons now - in advance of any second spike. To try and minimise the risk of it happening again, and the impact if it does.
		
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So you don't want answered just but you do want to know how things could have been done better. 

How can anyone give any answers until they get to a conclusion to the problem.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not asking for answers - just a bit of openness and honesty about what everyone could have done better or differently - and clarity on how the lessons leant are informing a plan to apply these lessons now - in advance of any second spike. To try and minimise the risk of it happening again, and the impact if it does.
		
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How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?
		
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I don't know, and that's the point.

What I *do* know is that I have not heard of any lessons that have been learnt from (as Hancock has just put it) the clear failure of their policy of putting a _*'protective ring' *_around care homes.

I have not heard a minister say such as '...We made _this _assumption and it proved wrong - we will do _this _next time'; '...We decided to apply _this _measure when _this _happened - but we can now see _that _as being the wrong timing - next time we'll do it _then _'; '...We asked care homes to do _this _at _this _point - but we should have told them to do _that _at _that _point'.  That's openness and honesty giving clarity.

Because at some point access restrictions on care homes are likely to be relaxed as the level of the virus in the community reduces to a 'safe' level.  The residents of care homes and their relatives must be provided with evidence that the care homes and the government know *exactly *what to do *next *time.  And so they surely must hear from the government what it was that went wrong that led to the failure of the 'protective ring' policy.

Meanwhile Hancock also tells me that measures must be taken so that I can have my freedoms back.  Good Trumpian rhetoric that.  Not aware I've really lost any - but good to hear if you are of a mind to bash teachers and their unions resisting children going back to school at this time.  Make out that teachers are preventing the return to me of some freedoms that I have lost.  As it happens I am not minded to think that Hancock would dream up such a phrase - not his style.


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?
		
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Because the honesty and openness that he hears from a bunch of highly qualified scientists and government officials do not give him the honesty and openness that he wishes to hear.


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## DanFST (May 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How is Johnson polling? last time I looked it was 54% slightly more than half polled had any faith in him.
		
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It was 43% before the GE in December and the Tories got an overwhelming majority.


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## 2blue (May 15, 2020)

This image just cracks me up.  
Add a few expletives & this scenario will be so familiar to any teacher working in an inner-city school. Especially the use of 'Miss' when you're a male teacher.


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## drdel (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know, and that's the point.

What I *do* know is that I have not heard of any lessons that have been learnt from (as Hancock has just put it) the clear failure of their policy of putting a _*'protective ring' *_around care homes.

I have not heard a minister say such as '...We made _this _assumption and it proved wrong - we will do _this _next time'; '...We decided to apply _this _measure when _this _happened - but we can now see _that _as being the wrong timing - next time we'll do it _then _'; '...We asked care homes to do _this _at _this _point - but we should have told them to do _that _at _that _point'.  That's openness and honesty giving clarity.

Because at some point access restrictions on care homes are likely to be relaxed as the level of the virus in the community reduces to a 'safe' level.  The residents of care homes and their relatives must be provided with evidence that the care homes and the government know *exactly *what to do *next *time.  And so they surely must hear from the government what it was that went wrong that led to the failure of the 'protective ring' policy.

Meanwhile Hancock also tells me that measures must be taken so that I can have my freedoms back.  Good Trumpian rhetoric that.  Not aware I've really lost any - but good to hear if you are of a mind to bash teachers and their unions resisting children going back to school at this time.  Make out that teachers are preventing the return to me of some freedoms that I have lost.  As it happens I am not minded to think that Hancock would dream up such a phrase - not his style.
		
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A lot of words essentially asking questions that you know have no definitive answers, or perhaps it is just a moan.


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## drdel (May 15, 2020)

2blue said:



View attachment 30688

This image just cracks me up. 
Add a few expletives & this scenario will be so familiar to any teacher working in an inner-city school. Especially the use of 'Miss' when you're a male teacher.  

Click to expand...

Like a few board meetings I remember!


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know, and that's the point.

What I *do* know is that I have not heard of any lessons that have been learnt from (as Hancock has just put it) the clear failure of their policy of putting a _*'protective ring' *_around care homes.

I have not heard a minister say such as '...We made _this _assumption and it proved wrong - we will do _this _next time'; '...We decided to apply _this _measure when _this _happened - but we can now see _that _as being the wrong timing - next time we'll do it _then _'; '...We asked care homes to do _this _at _this _point - but we should have told them to do _that _at _that _point'.  That's openness and honesty giving clarity.

Because at some point access restrictions on care homes are likely to be relaxed as the level of the virus in the community reduces to a 'safe' level.  The residents of care homes and their relatives must be provided with evidence that the care homes and the government know *exactly *what to do *next *time.  And so they surely must hear from the government what it was that went wrong that led to the failure of the 'protective ring' policy.

Meanwhile Hancock also tells me that measures must be taken so that I can have my freedoms back.  Good Trumpian rhetoric that.  Not aware I've really lost any - but good to hear if you are of a mind to bash teachers and their unions resisting children going back to school at this time.  Make out that teachers are preventing the return to me of some freedoms that I have lost.  As it happens I am not minded to think that Hancock would dream up such a phrase - not his style.
		
Click to expand...

I'm tempted to Foxy you... there's a lot of twaddle in there.

So you want to put words in their mouth. You want them to say "we made the wrong assumption...," and so on.

As for your last para, now that is utter twaddle of the first water. If you don't see the restrictions as curtailing your freedom... You know what, I think you are being deliberately obtuse to bolster your perception of the govt's performance. I'm very tempted to say that the above post is your worst post ever! You can't see that the restrictions are curtailing your freedom? Remind me of why you didn't go to Sheffield. And don't twist it. If those restrictions hadn't been in place you would have gone.


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## patricks148 (May 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			Charities are starting to operate like businesses, but, at the end of the day, it's not a good idea to expect businesses (care homes) to be like charities.
		
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not a suprise to see you prouting this, after all it was the Conservative Gov of the 80's and 90's that led the outsourcing of care homes, where for a great many profit comes before care... a ticking time bomb


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## IanM (May 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Heard it this afternoon and it sounds pretty sensible to me.

BTW have you any idea how arrogant your post sounds.
Scotland, NI and Wales are standing together against a UK government that seems to only listen to the views of one  country.
		
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Go and check this guys approval rating. Last poll wanted to close the welsh assembly down.

Maybe arrogance is elsewhere by not considering Wales has a different view from Scotland


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## patricks148 (May 15, 2020)

great side step from MH today when asked the question about Nurses pay by a member of the public... shame like many other tory MPshe had forgotten  he clapped cheered when the last motion on THOC on nurses pay was defeated


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## Stuart_C (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest,* and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?
		
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😂😂😂😂😂😂 Do you really believe that Bri?

I said last week, I'd like to know what scientific advice they're listening to when they made the decision to soften the lockdown. Surely it's in the Nations interest to hear it and should have access to said info.


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			😂😂😂😂😂😂 Do you really believe that Bri?

I said last week, I'd like to know what scientific advice they're listening to when they made the decision to soften the lockdown. Surely it's in the Nations interest to hear it and should have access to said info.
		
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I guess the answer to that is SAGE gives the Scientific advice.  Do you really expect the details of what they discuss to be published.


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## ColchesterFC (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest*, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?
		
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Because they are politicians!!!! 




This is entirely an apolitical post and applies equally to all politicians.


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## Stuart_C (May 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess the answer to that is SAGE gives the Scientific advice.  Do you really expect the details of what they discuss to be published.
		
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In a word, Yes. If they're telling us it's safe to go to work etc then surely we as the general public have a right to know what evidence has changed.  Or should I just keep schtum,crack on and believe what this government says? 

Obviously there's going to be some sensitive information which I could  understand to be withheld.


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## Foxholer (May 15, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			...
I said last week, I'd like to know what scientific advice they're listening to when they made the decision to soften the lockdown. *Surely it's in the Nations interest* to hear it and should have access to said info.
		
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While 'of interest', I don't believe it's particularly 'in the nation's interest' how they arrived at the decision - as long as they don't act too early and 'R' goes back over 1. Personally (and happy to admit selfishly), I think they are doing it a little too soon, but I'm not privy to ALL the variables and data involved. Getting businesses back to (near) normal again is obviously a huge concern for the government but less so (directly) for me. Continued safety is my biggest concern.


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			In a word, Yes. If they're telling us it's safe to go to work etc then surely we as the general public have a right to know what evidence has changed.  Or should I just keep schtum,crack on and believe what this government says?

Obviously there's going to be some sensitive information which I could  understand to be withheld.
		
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Bed time reading - about a week behind https://www.gov.uk/government/group...upporting-the-government-response-to-covid-19


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## Stuart_C (May 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			While 'of interest', I don't believe it's particularly 'in the nation's interest' how they arrived at the decision - as long as they don't act too early and 'R' goes back over 1. Personally (and happy to admit selfishly), I think they are doing it a little too soon, but I'm not privy to ALL the variables and data involved. Getting businesses back to (near) normal again is obviously a huge concern for the government but less so (directly) for me. *Continued safety is my biggest concern*.
		
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If people have concerns if it’s too soon or not, the govt could’ve allayed all fear by justifying their reasoning for loosening lockdown. is all the scientific information top secret?

Me too.


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2020)

. is all the scientific top secret.
		
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Only what comes out of the fear factory


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## Blue in Munich (May 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Heard it this afternoon and it sounds pretty sensible to me.

BTW have you any idea how arrogant your post sounds.
Scotland, NI and Wales are standing together against a UK government that seems to only listen to the views of one country.

BTW2 Sturgeon is polling over 80% support in Scotland for her lead on Covid19
How is Johnson polling? last time I looked it was 54% slightly more than half polled had any faith in him.
		
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Apparently Nicola is wavering, so not so much of a stand then?


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It shouldn't be , period. Care  homes should be an "arm " of the NHS.
I don't mean the NHS should just take it on as part of their costs and that it is as free as the existing parts of the NHS. No, it needs a funding structure worked out, but the running of care homes in terms of standards, quality of staff etc should be under the NHS.
The businesses have made enough out of old people's problems and their health should not be a source of profit for any in a caring society.
So, in effect, nationalise them - and before anyone starts telling me how nationalised bodies are not run efficiently , then please define efficiently.
Do you mean making a profit, before ensuring proper standards?
Or suddenly closing when the profits dry up and the "business " decides to go into administration? ( too bad for the old folk, can't help what might happen to them)
There are many on here blaming the government for the. Covid- in -care homes -problem, but who may baulk  at the word nationalisation , but if covid has proved anything, it is that some institutions of a civilised country should be owned , controlled and run by the Country, for the Country.
		
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There are, or rather should be, two levels of geriatric care: The residential home and the Nursing home. One problem is that the former often defaults into the latter.

Old folk who either prefer or need to live in a home where meals and housekeeping are done for them similar to living in a hotel is a good solution especially those that cant or dont want to maintain a house or need a little help in ther daily lives but are reasonably healthy and compis mentis.

If or when people become infirm, bedbound or suffer dementia then the residential care home is no longer suitable and a Nursing home where residents have a suitable level of nursing staff who are adequately trained to care and attend to the medical needs of such people is required.

Often Residential homes have people from both categories
living together in less than ideal conditions and with staff that are inadequately trained , this is not a good living environment for those that only require room and board and often results on inadequate nursing help for those that need it.  It's not the fault of the staff who are expected to cope in situations where they have not been trained and are often employed on minimum rates of pay.  There needs to be regulation to ensure elderly people in these homes receive a suitable level of care to meet their current requirements.

Regarding funding, if these people are our relatives then in the first instance it has to be our responsibility  either though our own funds if we are wealthy enough or through their own assets where the resident has suitable wealth.  What levels of cut off should apply is debateable and needs some rather complex consideration.  The state will need to assist where needed and again there is no simple answer to this.

If there is any truth in Elderly people still with Covid being sent back to residential homes then that would be totally unacceptable but I am not sure if this has been proven.  If covid has been introduced by staff then this is most concerning but I can see it's not easy to control unless staff are kept in quaranteen off duty, I cant see that happening somehow but there does need to be an enquiry and suitable systems in place to absolutely minimise these risks.


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## drdel (May 15, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not a suprise to see you prouting this, after all it was the Conservative Gov of the 80's and 90's that led the outsourcing of care homes, where for a great many profit comes before care... a ticking time bomb

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I guess the fact that Labour run Councils have a very significant funding input to Care Homes is beyond criticism.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			😂😂😂😂😂😂 Do you really believe that Bri?

I said last week, I'd like to know what scientific advice they're listening to when they made the decision to soften the lockdown. Surely it's in the Nations interest to hear it and should have access to said info.
		
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 Do you really not believe that Stu? And the next question would be why don't you believe it? Without making it dyed in the wool Labour 'v' true blue Tory what basis in fact do you believe/not believe?

Just joshing with you Stu. Do I believe the govt has been open? No, and I don't expect them to. Why? There'll be unpalatable decisions, for some, that might need to be made that they would be crucified for. In an ideal world, everyone would be riding unicorns up Pall Mall, but just occasionally there won't be enough unicorns to go round.

Do I believe they have been honest? No. Partly because they might be asked a question that relates to above, and in that respect I would expect them to be a evasive, not lie. But equally its in a politician's DNA to lie. Some of them will have lied. Do I think the comment about the PPE will be here Sunday was a lie? Yes I do. Do I think the we will test 100,000 people a day by the end of April a lie? Yes I do. I think in both cases the Minister concerned was caught out by a difficult question they weren't expecting and answered on the fly. The PPE lie was horrendous. The testing lie was clumsy.

As for everyone being told the science; do I really need to know that the RNA genome sequencing is? And if the scientists started talking about antigenic shift and antigenic drift... And on it goes from there. There's loads of scientific guff that would be pointless to give to everyone. If you put that level of science out there you'd lose the majority of the population. How would you put together a briefing with all of that and explain the decisions from there so that everyone took it on board? And, as we've all seen, there's plenty of experts out there who will argue both ways. Putting everything out there will actually cause uncertainty as other experts argue for a different path.

BTW, all my answer above is apolitical, i.e. with no preference or bias for any party. I'd expect any party to behave in exactly the same way.


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			In a word, Yes. If they're telling us it's safe to go to work etc then surely we as the general public have a right to know what evidence has changed.  Or should I just keep schtum,crack on and believe what this government says?

Obviously there's going to be some sensitive information which I could  understand to be withheld.
		
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They did explain to us the guiding statistic in loosening lockdown was the level of 'R' has to stay at one or below and at the time they made the decision it was below one.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There are, or rather should be, two levels of geriatric care: The residential home and the Nursing home. One problem is that the former often defaults into the latter.

Old folk who either prefer or need to live in a home where meals and housekeeping are done for them similar to living in a hotel is a good solution especially those that cant or dont want to maintain a house or need a little help in ther daily lives but are reasonably healthy and compis mentis.

If or when people become infirm, bedbound or suffer dementia then the residential care home is no longer suitable and a Nursing home where residents have a suitable level of nursing staff who are adequately trained to care and attend to the medical needs of such people is required.

Often Residential homes have people from both categories
living together in less than ideal conditions and with staff that are inadequately trained , this is not a good living environment for those that only require room and board and often results on inadequate nursing help for those that need it.  It's not the fault of the staff who are expected to cope in situations where they have not been trained and are often employed on minimum rates of pay.  There needs to be regulation to ensure elderly people in these homes receive a suitable level of care to meet their current requirements.

Regarding funding, if these people are our relatives then in the first instance it has to be our responsibility  either though our own funds if we are wealthy enough or through their own assets where the resident has suitable wealth.  What levels of cut off should apply is debateable and needs some rather complex consideration.  The state will need to assist where needed and again there is no simple answer to this.

If there is any truth in Elderly people still with Covid being sent back to residential homes then that would be totally unacceptable but I am not sure if this has been proven.  If covid has been introduced by staff then this is most concerning but I can see it's not easy to control unless staff are kept in quaranteen off duty, I cant see that happening somehow but there does need to be an enquiry and suitable systems in place to absolutely minimise these risks.
		
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I have not personally known anyone in a "care" home who hasn't needed to be looked after. That is because they cannot be safe looking after themselves.
That is a medical issue. It is not a residential home issue. Those places are not abundant.
The residential homes like in "waiting for god" are not what we are talking about, and I think you know that. Those are , as you say, convenient hotel type situations, and they are not what are being discussed as being at perilous risk of this Covid.
Nor is there a blurring of residential home and care home. The distinction is easily made. If the person living there cannot look after themselves safely, or be looked after safely without destroying others quality of life,, then they need a care home.
However, because of funding pressure , the Authorities began some years ago to blatantly tell families that their aged relatives weren't a health issue, just a "care" issue, thus to to funded privately.
I even saw  on TV one poor bugger, bed bound , barely conscious, with stomach feeding tubes who had been adjudicated to be a "care" case. Not a medical case🙄
This has to change if we are to stop becoming  a completely selfish society.

Both parties over the years have failed to grasp the nettle, and things will not 
change until private and corporate ownership of care homes ceases.
Political ideology supporting private enterprise in this subject has failed, and by its nature, was bound to fail. 
Any PPE failure in care homes is not this governments fault. it is the fault of all governments who have permitted private care homes over the years.
The same response would have happened whatever Party had been in power when this virus struck.
Those businesses had the responsibility to provide because they were private. This government had first to provide for the NHS.Yes, they have got round to helping the private care homes by assisting and rightly so, but in the scheme of things it has been later rather than sooner, but they would have had things organised better if they had been under the NHS umbrella from the start.

 Profiting from an old person's inability to survive without help , through no fault of their own, is abhorrent to me, and when put as plainly and as baldly as that, it is , I believe , to most people in this country.
Whenever this covid is over and the analysis of how we handled it is made, I hope that arising from the findings will be a determination that the infirm old will be looked after directly by the State as their condition warrants.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I have not personally known anyone in a "care" home who hasn't needed to be looked after. That is because they cannot be safe looking after themselves.
That is a medical issue. It is not a residential home issue. Those places are not abundant.
The residential homes like in "waiting for god" are not what we are talking about, and I think you know that. Those are , as you say, convenient hotel type situations, and they are not what are being discussed as being at perilous risk of this Covid.
Nor is there a blurring of residential home and care home. The distinction is easily made. If the person living there cannot look after themselves safely, or be looked after safely without destroying others quality of life,, then they need a care home.
However, because of funding pressure , the Authorities began some years ago to blatantly tell families that their aged relatives weren't a health issue, just a "care" issue, thus to to funded privately.
I even saw  on TV one poor bugger, bed bound , barely conscious, with stomach feeding tubes who had been adjudicated to be a "care" case. Not a medical case🙄
This has to change if we are to stop becoming  a completely selfish society.

Both parties over the years have failed to grasp the nettle, and things will not
change until private and corporate ownership of care homes ceases.
Political ideology supporting private enterprise in this subject has failed, and by its nature, was bound to fail.
Any PPE failure in care homes is not this governments fault. it is the fault of all governments who have permitted private care homes over the years.
The same response would have happened whatever Party had been in power when this virus struck.
Those businesses had the responsibility to provide because they were private. This government had first to provide for the NHS.Yes, they have got round to helping the private care homes by assisting and rightly so, but in the scheme of things it has been later rather than sooner, but they would have had things organised better if they had been under the NHS umbrella from the start.

Profiting from an old person's inability to survive without help , through no fault of their own, is abhorrent to me, and when put as plainly and as baldly as that, it is , I believe , to most people in this country.
Whenever this covid is over and the analysis of how we handled it is made, I hope that arising from the findings will be a determination that the infirm old will be looked after directly by the State as their condition warrants.
		
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First I should point out that our parents are initially our responsibility to look after and if we are able to look after them we should do so.

My Mother lived in a resedential care home for a few years when she found it difficult to manage everyday household tasks but she didnt need nursing help. Later when she became quite I'll the residential home couldnt manage her nursing needs so she moved to a Nursing home that had qualified Nurses on site who could administer her medical and nursing needs, I assure you these types of homes are quite normal. I live in a Spa town where people are reputed to move to to die, it has a great number of homes ranging from retirement villages to specialised nursing homes and as I explained previously some homes that are designed to be residential but have a mixture of people with basic residential geriatric needs mixed with people with severe alzheimer's and other health issues.  It's not good where these needs are combined along with staff that are not well qualified to manage them.

We live in a mixed ecconomy where private business is run for profit and there is no incentive for private individuals to put their own money into an enterprise that makes no return, its unreasonable to expect them to do so.  I understand the case for making all social care a nationalised service and we need to resolve this issue quickly, although people must always have choice if they want to pay for a better level of service, just like private health care.


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## patricks148 (May 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			I guess the fact that Labour run Councils have a very significant funding input to Care Homes is beyond criticism.
		
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of course its not, but as usual you just deflect, the fact the Tory's started this.... profit ahead people.... there's a long list


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Got a bit down last night after listening/reading some pretty pessimistic analysis on the way out of our current situation, the likely timescales involved and even the relatively low chances of getting an effective vaccine which I had naively been assuming was only a matter of time. It seems that the future has to be to find a way to live with the virus and that depends on (among other things) the ability to test people and trace the contacts of those who test positive.

On that note, the UK government is setting out lots of targets for daily testing, number of contact tracers, tracing app etc. But I've got a bit confused over what relates to the UK as a whole and what is just England. Anyone know if the 100,000 tests is uk-wide? And the 18,000 contact tracers - is that across the UK?

If not, does anyone know what the Scottish government is doing on these metrics?
		
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General rule of thumb is that if a UK Government ministers is speaking on a health issue it should be England matters only.
You are not alone on being confused hence my bee in the bonnet about them making it absolutely clear whether they are speaking for England only or for the whole of the UK. { I actually think they get confused sometimes]
The Scots Gov gave the test numbers out the other day and to my very limited maths knowledge they seemed pro rata to England [using the 10% rule and assuming that the numbers quoted by the UK health ministers were for England only.]


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## Stuart_C (May 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



 Do you really not believe that Stu? And the next question would be why don't you believe it? Without making it dyed in the wool Labour 'v' true blue Tory what basis in fact do you believe/not believe?

Just joshing with you Stu. Do I believe the govt has been open? No, and I don't expect them to. Why? There'll be unpalatable decisions, for some, that might need to be made that they would be crucified for. In an ideal world, everyone would be riding unicorns up Pall Mall, but just occasionally there won't be enough unicorns to go round.

Do I believe they have been honest? No. Partly because they might be asked a question that relates to above, and in that respect I would expect them to be a evasive, not lie. But equally its in a politician's DNA to lie. Some of them will have lied. Do I think the comment about the PPE will be here Sunday was a lie? Yes I do. Do I think the we will test 100,000 people a day by the end of April a lie? Yes I do. I think in both cases the Minister concerned was caught out by a difficult question they weren't expecting and answered on the fly. The PPE lie was horrendous. The testing lie was clumsy.

As for everyone being told the science; do I really need to know that the RNA genome sequencing is? And if the scientists started talking about antigenic shift and antigenic drift... And on it goes from there. There's loads of scientific guff that would be pointless to give to everyone. If you put that level of science out there you'd lose the majority of the population. How would you put together a briefing with all of that and explain the decisions from there so that everyone took it on board? And, as we've all seen, there's plenty of experts out there who will argue both ways. Putting everything out there will actually cause uncertainty as other experts argue for a different path.

BTW, all my answer above is apolitical, i.e. with no preference or bias for any party. I'd expect any party to behave in exactly the same way.
		
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I totally understand there's going to be some unpalatable decisions to be made, it's impossible to keep everyone happy. 

I'm sure they could've released info to support the decision to loosen lockdown instead of just quoting the R number.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently Nicola is wavering, so not so much of a stand then?
		
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For a while she has given the indication that some lockdown rules will be lifted by the end of the month, if it is safe to do so.
You are wrong, she is not wavering but being consistent with her long term plans.
The UK R number is now rising so perhaps it may be a while longer.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 16, 2020)

The Teeside Mayor has just been on BBC breakfast. We see him a lot on the local news, he is now on the national news. He has been front and centre on this issue, and others. You may not agree with him but he will take tough decisions and will back up why. He comes across as an impressive bloke. 

Despite not wanting one, my area elected a mayor last year. He is utterly anonymous, has spent months gathering a team at great expense and we still don't know what he is meant to be doing. He is exactly the reason why we didn't want a mayor, an added level of bureaucracy and a money drain.

I guess I could have put this in the irritation thread but I put it here as the Teeside mayor was talking about the virus.

For those who have mayors, are they fronting up well during this? Are they making locally driven decisions? (Middlesborough kept their parks closed for a while for example at the request of the mayor)


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## Slab (May 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Heard it this afternoon and it sounds pretty sensible to me.

BTW have you any idea how arrogant your post sounds.
Scotland, NI and Wales are standing together against a UK government that seems to only listen to the views of one country.

BTW2 Sturgeon is polling over 80% support in Scotland for her lead on Covid19
How is Johnson polling? last time I looked it was 54% slightly more than half polled had any faith in him.
		
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There could be a point somewhere in the post but was the polled question really..... 'do you have any faith in the PM?'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

I have heard so many people this morning imploring us to NOT travel to popular beauty spots or national parks that  one wonders why our government has let us travel as far as we want...If they had to do it why did they not just limit the distance we could travel to say 25miles or 15miles.  I guess they saw it as being a popular thing to do.  Well of course they did.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			First I should point out that our parents are initially our responsibility to look after and if we are able to look after them we should do so.

My Mother lived in a resedential care home for a few years when she found it difficult to manage everyday household tasks but she didnt need nursing help. Later when she became quite I'll the residential home couldnt manage her nursing needs so she moved to a Nursing home that had qualified Nurses on site who could administer her medical and nursing needs, I assure you these types of homes are quite normal. I live in a Spa town where people are reputed to move to to die, it has a great number of homes ranging from retirement villages to specialised nursing homes and as I explained previously some homes that are designed to be residential but have a mixture of people with basic residential geriatric needs mixed with people with severe alzheimer's and other health issues.  It's not good where these needs are combined along with staff that are not well qualified to manage them.

We live in a mixed ecconomy where private business is run for profit and there is no incentive for private individuals to put their own money into an enterprise that makes no return, its unreasonable to expect them to do so.  I understand the case for making all social care a nationalised service and we need to resolve this issue quickly, although people must always have choice if they want to pay for a better level of service, just like private health care.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not going to get into a I say-you say on this subject. My previous post said all I w anted to say really. But just two,points.
It isn't the children's responsibility, period. Because,  there may be no children; or the children may be struggling to make ends meet( more likely today than ever- how many times have you seen " Bank of Mum and Dad" quoted.)
There should be a national funding scheme which negates that need for children to be financially bound. That doesn't mean non contributory.

I have made the distinction between residential and care homes, which you say doesn't have to be so marked. Well, let me ask you a question.
When your mother couldn't "manage everyday tasks" , was she a danger to herself ? Constantly falling over , or leaving appliances switched on which may have harmed her , etc? 
If so, her health was in danger. She couldn't care for herself. She needed a care home. Same as you or I might be like in our own homes in years to come.Then , we will need care to survive. 
That is the criterion.
 "Waiting for God " residences are not under discussion in this thread, just as my home or your home isn't.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I'm not going to get into a I say-you say on this subject. My previous post said all I w anted to say really. But just two,points.
It isn't the children's responsibility, period. Because,  there may be no children; or the children may be struggling to make ends meet( more likely today than ever- how many times have you seen " Bank of Mum and Dad" quoted.)
There should be a national funding scheme which negates that need for children to be financially bound. That doesn't mean non contributory.

I have made the distinction between residential and care homes, which you say doesn't have to be so marked. Well, let me ask you a question.
When your mother couldn't "manage everyday tasks" , was she a danger to herself ? Constantly falling over , or leaving appliances switched on which may have harmed her , etc?
If so, her health was in danger. She couldn't care for herself. She needed a care home. Same as you or I might be like in our own homes in years to come.Then , we will need care to survive.
That is the criterion.
"Waiting for God " residences are not under discussion in this thread, just as my home or your home isn't.
		
Click to expand...

I'm trying to have a grown up discussion on the subject, it's nothing to do with 'I say' 'you say'    I made an opinion which you disagreed with, I have replied to clarify some of my points. That's OK isnt it.

I did say it's our or the resedents responsibility 'if they can afford it'  not period.

My Mother went into a Resedential home in the first instance because she was 90 years old and finding every day tasks difficult, she lived a long way from the family, she wasnt falling over or leaving the gas on she just needed some help with everyday tasks and the company of others.

I didnt say the differences between residential and care homes should be less marked, quite the opposite, they need to be distinctly different.

If you think my comments are arguementative then please ignore them.


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## PNWokingham (May 16, 2020)

the problem in all the guidance and rules and restrictions as there are not or never can be enough to cover all scenarios and yet there are too many to keep things simple and give the core guidance and let people and businesses implement them.

Key one is golf. Outdoor with social distancing equals very little risk. So why get involved and taklk about 2 people rather than 4. Reiterate that golf is open but the core rules apply - clubs direct members to this and we have 4-ball golf with no more risks than 2-ball golf.

Just keep strict on the distancing guidelines - with a focus on indoors - and leave evryone to implememnt it themselves!


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			the problem in all the guidance and rules and restrictions as there are not or never can be enough to cover all scenarios and yet there are too many to keep things simple and give the core guidance and let people and businesses implement them.

Key one is golf. Outdoor with social distancing equals very little risk. So why get involved and taklk about 2 people rather than 4. Reiterate that golf is open but the core rules apply - clubs direct members to this and we have 4-ball golf with no more risks than 2-ball golf.

Just keep strict on the distancing guidelines - with a focus on indoors - and leave evryone to implememnt it themselves!
		
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I thought the current golf restrictions had been decided by the Golf Union.


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## PNWokingham (May 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought the current golf restrictions had been decided by the Golf Union.
		
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as they have applied the 2 person ruling from the government, which i don't think was necessary if they that people can meet as long as strict social distancing is applied


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## PNWokingham (May 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			as they have applied the 2 person ruling from the government, which i don't think was necessary if they that people can meet as long as strict social distancing is applied
		
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i mean this to outdoors specifically


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			as they have applied the 2 person ruling from the government, which i don't think was necessary if they that people can meet as long as strict social distancing is applied
		
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I believe you can play a 4 ball if from the same household.

I guess 2 balls are better than what we had before though. It's like meeting one person from outside your family, if it's opened up we know some will abuse it so best to take a steady approach.


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## rosecott (May 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			as they have applied the 2 person ruling from the government, which i don't think was necessary if they that people can meet as long as strict social distancing is applied
		
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I see the 2-ball rule at my club as an important part of social distancing by reducing the footfall. That, and the strictures not to arrive in the car park any earlier than 15 minutes before tee time, means fewer people milling around, going into the prohop etc., and a one way in, another way out also helps.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe you can play a 4 ball if from the same household.

I guess 2 balls are better than what we had before though. It's like meeting one person from outside your family, if it's opened up we know some will abuse it so best to take a steady approach.
		
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I don't know this but my guess is that they have spoken to the Behavioral Scientists who have been very involved so far and asked what the risks are of 2 people meeting, 3 people, 4 people etc. I suspect the risk of breaking the 2m rule increases by a certain amount for every extra person you add into the mix. 

At the moment we have to be careful still. As the magical R number reduces then im sure we will see another person added into the mix per group.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't know this but my guess is that they have spoken to the Behavioral Scientists who have been very involved so far and asked what the risks are of 2 people meeting, 3 people, 4 people etc. I suspect the risk of breaking the 2m rule increases by a certain amount for every extra person you add into the mix.

At the moment we have to be careful still. As the magical R number reduces then im sure we will see another person added into the mix per group.
		
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Just an off the cuff aside, not picking holes. How relevant is the magical R number when it is being kept(artificially) low by the lockdown? We have a good idea that the R number in normal interaction is high 3.0's and up over. And we know that as it goes through the population immunities will increase, and the (normal) R will reduce... sorry, I'm rambling - lack of sleep.

When will the (normal) R number low enough, and with each change of interaction the R changes?


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## spongebob59 (May 16, 2020)

https://unherd.com/2020/05/what-the-headline-covid-figures-dont-tell-you/


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## Lord Tyrion (May 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff aside, not picking holes. How relevant is the magical R number when it is being kept(artificially) low by the lockdown? We have a good idea that the R number in normal interaction is high 3.0's and up over. And we know that as it goes through the population immunities will increase, and the (normal) R will reduce... sorry, I'm rambling - lack of sleep.

When will the (normal) R number low enough, and with each change of interaction the R changes?
		
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I'm well out of my depth on that one. I only quoted it as that seems to be the default measurement everyone is now talking about.

I could have used infection rate or other term that I equally know little about but that seems to be old hat now. R seems to be the magic letter.

My point is, I think, as the risk level of this spreading reduces the greater level of interaction will be allowed. Does that make sense?


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm well out of my depth on that one. I only quoted it as that seems to be the default measurement everyone is now talking about.

I could have used infection rate or other term that I equally know little about but that seems to be old hat now. R seems to be the magic letter.

My point is, I think, as the risk level of this spreading reduces the greater level of interaction will be allowed. Does that make sense?
		
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I think you've got as good a grasp as anyone. I've tried following it but there were/are so many unknowns.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm well out of my depth on that one. I only quoted it as that seems to be the default measurement everyone is now talking about.

I could have used infection rate or other term that I equally know little about but that seems to be old hat now. R seems to be the magic letter.

My point is, I think, as the risk level of this spreading reduces the greater level of interaction will be allowed. Does that make sense?
		
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Yes, it makes sense. Not hard to understand your point at all .


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## fundy (May 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			the problem in all the guidance and rules and restrictions as there are not or never can be enough to cover all scenarios and yet there are too many to keep things simple and give the core guidance and let people and businesses implement them.

Key one is golf. Outdoor with social distancing equals very little risk. So why get involved and taklk about 2 people rather than 4. Reiterate that golf is open but the core rules apply - clubs direct members to this and we have 4-ball golf with no more risks than 2-ball golf.

Just keep strict on the distancing guidelines - with a focus on indoors - and leave evryone to implememnt it themselves!
		
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do you allow people to meet 3 others from different households in a park too? the forest? the beach?

surely england golf saying 2 balls IS to apply the core rules the govt have in place (ie meet up with 1 person from outside your household)


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## drdel (May 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff aside, not picking holes. How relevant is the magical R number when it is being kept(artificially) low by the lockdown? We have a good idea that the R number in normal interaction is high 3.0's and up over. And we know that as it goes through the population immunities will increase, and the (normal) R will reduce... sorry, I'm rambling - lack of sleep.

When will the (normal) R number low enough, and with each change of interaction the R changes?
		
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There is about a 3 week lag in some of the data. Some reports suggestion its gone up and is close to 0.9 but it will not have responded to the lower infection rate and the easing of restrictions or the rise in Care homes deaths. I guess we will need to wait and see which way it goes.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2020)

My friend in Wilts cannot meet with his mum and dad but he can now put his house on the buyers market.
His mum and dad will be viewing his house three times a week until lockdown ends.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My friend in Wilts cannot meet with his mum and dad but he can now put his house on the buyers market.
His mum and dad will be viewing his house three times a week until lockdown ends.

Click to expand...

And that's Ok is it.Ive heard that old chestnut so many times now and cant believe anyone would bother to do it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

Gavin Williamson’s briefing is almost nauseating in its delivery and tone - and is clearly aimed at undermining opposition in teaching and teaching unions to a return to schooling. And such faux sincerity makes it almost impossible to keep listening - doesn’t help of course that I don’t normally have any time for him. But I will keep going with him - as I know he must finish shortly. 🙄


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## MegaSteve (May 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My friend in Wilts cannot meet with his mum and dad but he can now put his house on the buyers market.
His mum and dad will be viewing his house three times a week until lockdown ends.

Click to expand...

Knowing this is occurring shouldn't you be doing the right thing and seeking to report it to the appropriate authorities... But, then again, why bother as playing the holier than thou card is obviously of more importance...


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## rosecott (May 16, 2020)

fundy said:



			do you allow people to meet 3 others from different households in a park too? the forest? the beach?

surely england golf saying 2 balls IS to apply the core rules the govt have in place (ie meet up with 1 person from outside your household)
		
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The England Golf advice allows for 3 or 4 balls of family members at the club's discretion.


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## huds1475 (May 16, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I see the 2-ball rule at my club as an important part of social distancing by reducing the footfall. That, and the strictures not to arrive in the car park any earlier than 15 minutes before tee time, means fewer people milling around, going into the prohop etc., and a one way in, another way out also helps.
		
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Agree with all this.

At the end of the day, thems the rules.

Am amazed how many people I've seen moaning about this, or suggesting its OK to ignore.

People should count themselves lucky to be allowed to play. There are others far worse off in all this.

++ not having a go at @PNWokingham++


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## AmandaJR (May 16, 2020)

ITV - "can you guarantee the R rate won't increase"...how do these morons get, and keep, their jobs?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Knowing this is occurring shouldn't you be doing the right thing and seeking to report it to the appropriate authorities... But, then again, why bother as playing the holier than thou card is obviously of more importance...
		
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Erm…. I think the wee winkie man was an indication that I don't think my friend was being serious. 
I think he was just pointing out some of the absurdly daft 'rules'.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gavin Williamson’s briefing is almost nauseating in its delivery and tone - and is clearly aimed at undermining opposition in teaching and teaching unions to a return to schooling. And such faux sincerity makes it almost impossible to keep listening - doesn’t help of course that I don’t normally have any time for him. But I will keep going with him - as I know he must finish shortly. 🙄
		
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Bit premature there Hogie, he hasn't even finished the brief yet! Personally, after his previous faux pas as the Defence Minister I'm gobsmacked he's back on the Front Bench. However, I think he's spoken exceptionally well so far. He's praised the teaching staff to the high heavens. I know from my youngest daughter who is a Primary school teacher, an awful lot of what he's said is actually happening now, e.g. every home schooled child that doesn't have access to a laptop was given one weeks ago.

Why not wait till the brief has finished before you come on and spout your pre-written criticism...

EDIT: "Teachers have been absolute hero's all the way through this crisis...." C'mon Hogie, rub the egg off your face


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## AmandaJR (May 16, 2020)

If I was selling my house and had viewings I have a feeling my interraction with them would be completely different to that with my nearest and dearest. With all the best will in the world it is very hard to social distance from loved ones who we've not seen for some time. I'd happily social distance from a stranger who may want to buy my house.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gavin Williamson’s briefing is almost nauseating in its delivery and tone - and is clearly aimed at undermining opposition in teaching and teaching unions to a return to schooling. And such faux sincerity makes it almost impossible to keep listening - doesn’t help of course that I don’t normally have any time for him. But I will keep going with him - as I know he must finish shortly. 🙄
		
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Give you a gun , Hugh, I don't know who you'd shoot first?😁
Unless it was a Tommy gun and then you could line em up , Valentines Day style!😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gavin Williamson’s briefing is almost nauseating in its delivery and tone - and is clearly aimed at undermining opposition in teaching and teaching unions to a return to schooling. And such faux sincerity makes it almost impossible to keep listening - doesn’t help of course that I don’t normally have any time for him. But I will keep going with him - as I know he must finish shortly. 🙄
		
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More conciliatory towards teachers and unions under questioning 👍


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Bit premature there Hogie, he hasn't even finished the brief yet! Personally, after his previous faux pas as the Defence Minister I'm gobsmacked he's back on the Front Bench. However, I think he's spoken exceptionally well so far. He's praised the teaching staff to the high heavens. I know from my youngest daughter who is a Primary school teacher, an awful lot of what he's said is actually happening now, e.g. every home schooled child that doesn't have access to a laptop was given one weeks ago.

Why not wait till the brief has finished before you come on and spout your pre-written criticism...

EDIT: "Teachers have been absolute hero's all the way through this crisis...." C'mon Hogie, rub the egg off your face

Click to expand...

Not his style, he only listens so he can have a moan. The fact that a government minister or should I say a member of the Tory Party is up there is enough to get him going. He's the only person I know that continues to listen to all those he hates to listen to , be it Farage, BJ or Uncle Tom Cobbly.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Give you a gun , Hugh, I don't know who you'd shoot first?😁
Unless it was a Tommy gun and then you could line em up , Valentines Day style!😉
		
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He would over think it and miss even when given the appropriate advice, because he disagrees with what was said.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			More conciliatory towards teachers and unions under questioning 👍
		
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You missed a bit of that egg


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## Foxholer (May 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			the problem in all the guidance and rules and restrictions as there are not or never can be enough to cover all scenarios and yet there are too many to keep things simple and give the core guidance and let people and businesses implement them.

Key one is golf. Outdoor with social distancing equals very little risk. So why get involved and taklk about 2 people rather than 4. Reiterate that golf is open but the core rules apply - clubs direct members to this and we have 4-ball golf with no more risks than 2-ball golf.

Just keep strict on the distancing guidelines - with a focus on indoors - and leave evryone to implememnt it themselves!
		
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The simple answer is that 2-Ball Golf works within the 'general' rules - as does Singles Tennis. 4-Ball Golf (or Doubles Tennis) would require 'special' consideration and there would plenty of other interactions that could have an argument also be consider. This is a welcome step, so let's not try to push too far too fast! I'll be even happier if the next step is that I can shower, change and get a beer (outside, in a single use 'glass') after the round.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He would over think it and miss even when given the appropriate advice, because he disagrees with what was said.
		
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actually I didn‘t disagree hugely with what he said - I just don’t trust the guy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You missed a bit of that egg

Click to expand...

He got a bit better after his lecture was over...😉 Though he didn’t really address the question of how teachers would be able to go to school when so many need childcare to be able to do so. Which is a conundrum to be sure.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			actually I didn‘t disagree hugely with what he said - I just don’t trust the guy.
		
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I doubt if he'd trust you but he's not after your trust, very few of us trust politicians but in dangerous times options are limited.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

Anyway - here’s a question. Friend of ours has got a job in london.  She’s going to houseshare and plans to move in next week.  One person in the house she knows but hasn’t been in a household with, other two are complete strangers.  Putting aside Great British common sense - do the guidelines permit that?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I doubt if he'd trust you *but he's not after your trust*, very few of us trust politicians but in dangerous times options are limited.
		
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Well he damn well should be ...

btw anyone know how many contact tracers have been employed with mid-May rapidly approaching - or past.  Yesterday Brandon Lewis said 15,000 applied and 1,500 recruited given figures earlier this week.  More now But DWP won’t release figures.  Interested as Mrs Hogie has applied and got an interview but no date for it yet.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He got a bit better after his lecture was over...😉 Though he didn’t really address the question of how teachers would be able to go to school when so many need childcare to be able to do so. Which is a conundrum to be sure.
		
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Whole thing is politically motivated with the unions flexing their muscles. Many teachers are out their working their butts off and the unions never said a word, now they are demanding that the government meet the unions 5 guidelines even though the guy on the news jumped from 3 to 5. Perhaps he needs to go back to school and learn to count.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well he damn well should be ...

btw anyone know how many contact tracers have been employed with mid-May rapidly approaching - or past.  Yesterday Brandon Lewis said 15,000 applied and 1,500 recruited given figures earlier this week.  More now But DWP won’t release figures.  Interested as Mrs Hogie has applied and got an interview but no date for it yet.
		
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Being done through the whole of the civil service network not just the DWP.

Why should he, have you got children of school age. You have made it perfectly clear you have little faith in any of the current government, finding fault every time one of them opens their mouth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

The question about teachers and their childcare is simple enough.

Anyway - do we know how many have been recruited as they are surely critical to any relaxation and associated risk, and that relaxation really kicked in today.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The question about teachers and their childcare is simple enough.

Anyway - do we know how many have been recruited as they are surely critical to any relaxation and associated risk, and that relaxation really kicked in today.
		
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What has it to do with you how many are recruited, as long as the powers to be know that's all that matters. 

As for childcare, that's always a problem that all families have to solve, how do families manage during school holidays. Nobody in the unions raises concerns about families outside the teaching profession during these times. Most teachers aren't militant or even in a union and would try their hardest to get back to teaching and we have to trust that the scientific experts that are working on the problem for the government are giving the right guidance.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The question about teachers and their childcare is simple enough.

Anyway - do we know how many have been recruited as they are surely critical to any relaxation and associated risk, and that relaxation really kicked in today.
		
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Teachers are classed as key workers. Their kids go to school.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway - do we know how many have been recruited as they are surely critical to any relaxation and associated risk, and that relaxation really kicked in today.
		
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PS if you had been selected amongst the NHS responders you would also know that there are induction courses starting Monday.


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## AmandaJR (May 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			PS if you had been selected amongst the NHS responders you would also know that there are induction courses starting Monday.
		
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I'm a responder but not heard anything. Looks like you need "medical" experience from what I've been able to read?


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm a responder but not heard anything. Looks like you need "medical" experience from what I've been able to read?
		
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Enhanced DBS required


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## Blue in Munich (May 16, 2020)




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## huds1475 (May 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			ITV - "can you guarantee the R rate won't increase"...how do these morons get, and keep, their jobs?
		
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Nuggets.

Would be good to put all the 'news' agencies on a cards / points system similar to football. Need to be held to account, especially with that kind of tripe.


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## Kellfire (May 17, 2020)

Haven’t read back but did this site pick up on the fact the tories tried to get their propaganda machine to shame teachers? Hope so.


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## MegaSteve (May 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Erm…. I think the wee winkie man was an indication that I don't think my friend was being serious. 
I think he was just pointing out some of the absurdly daft 'rules'.
		
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Fairly certain any honest/genuine estate agent would call a halt to repeat viewings obviously outside the intention of 'the rules'... I am quite happy to call out what I see as the shortcomings of government... However, I feel this needs to be tempered with a thought that the last thing I want is an overbearing bureaucratic nanny state running the show... As that is why I voted to kick Brussels into touch...


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Haven’t read back but did this site pick up on the fact the tories tried to get their propaganda machine to shame teachers? Hope so.
		
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Don't know. 

I wonder if the forum picked up on the number of teachers who have said that, on this as on many "politicised" issues, the unions do not speak for them.


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Whole thing is politically motivated with the unions flexing their muscles. Many teachers are out their working their butts off and the unions never said a word, now they are demanding that the government meet the unions 5 guidelines even though the guy on the news jumped from 3 to 5. Perhaps he needs to go back to school and learn to count.
		
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Nothing to do with unions "flexing their muscles". They are trying to protect their members, who are scared stiff of what is going to happen on June 1st. There is a massive difference between the current situation and what will happen then. At the moment, schools are getting a handful of kids coming in. My wife works in a primary school in a pretty deprived area, there are 300 kids on the school roll, at the moment they are getting an average of 4 kids a day coming in. The highest total they have had is 7. There are 5-6 members of staff in daily, so they have got a good chance of being able to maintain social distancing and staying safe. Most teachers are at home 4 days a week, setting work for the rest of the kids who pick it up online.

They are now going to have to work with classes of 15 kids who at the age of 4 and 5 will be all over each other and the staff. A lot of the resources they use are shared around, they simply don't have enough books or lego or whatever to give a child their own resources, and it is just not practical to sterilise something every single time it is passed from child to child.

They have no PPE, they will have no way of knowing which kids have, or have had the virus. The sad fact is that they will get a disproportionate amount of kids at the highest risk coming in, coming from chaotic households where the parents are desperate to dump their kids.

Are the inherent risks really a price worth paying so that 4 and 5 year olds get an extra few weeks schooling? Is that really going to make a big difference to them?

The British Medical Association have stated that it is a very bad idea. They are 100% correct.


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

there was a march against lock down planned yesterday in the local park, when i went past there were 3 people, but at least 8 cop cars/vans and about 20 police. i believe there were sim planned elsewhere, lets hope they had the same numbers turn out.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2020)

So the BMA, the Teachers, the right wing unionist NI Assembly, the left wing Welsh Labour Government, the centre left Scots Government, many local mayors and local governments, the NHS, nearly all the unions and I think all of the opposition parties think Johnson acted to early and/or is unprepared for easing lockdown.
I am beginning to see a bit of a pattern here.


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## PaulS (May 17, 2020)

I don’t think it’s a stretch to see that some teachers along with unions are using the situation to score political points.

The teacher that Sky interviewed saying she doesn’t trust Boris Johnson and his stats etc turned out to be a left wing political activist.

So far and 🤞it stays that way the virus doesn’t seem to be affecting the under 18’s to any great extent - believe it’s 10 under 18’s who have passed away with 9 having serious medical conditions but its going into the unknown. 

Whilst there will be teachers who are worried about the virus and the potential damage it could cause if it went through schools the only way is to take people at face value 

And if there are teachers that are using it to score political points then they just join thousands of others that are doing - including a good number on here.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Nothing to do with unions "flexing their muscles". They are trying to protect their members, who are scared stiff of what is going to happen on June 1st. There is a massive difference between the current situation and what will happen then. At the moment, schools are getting a handful of kids coming in. My wife works in a primary school in a pretty deprived area, there are 300 kids on the school roll, at the moment they are getting an average of 4 kids a day coming in. The highest total they have had is 7. There are 5-6 members of staff in daily, so they have got a good chance of being able to maintain social distancing and staying safe. Most teachers are at home 4 days a week, setting work for the rest of the kids who pick it up online.

They are now going to have to work with classes of 15 kids who at the age of 4 and 5 will be all over each other and the staff. A lot of the resources they use are shared around, they simply don't have enough books or lego or whatever to give a child their own resources, and it is just not practical to sterilise something every single time it is passed from child to child.

They have no PPE, they will have no way of knowing which kids have, or have had the virus. The sad fact is that they will get a disproportionate amount of kids at the highest risk coming in, coming from chaotic households where the parents are desperate to dump their kids.

Are the inherent risks really a price worth paying so that 4 and 5 year olds get an extra few weeks schooling? Is that really going to make a big difference to them?

The British Medical Association have stated that it is a very bad idea. They are 100% correct.
		
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Who says that teachers are "scared stiff"?

The unions leaders appear to have made a unilateral decision with no consultation with members and no presentation of the evidence from either side.


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## PaulS (May 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So the BMA, the Teachers, the right wing unionist NI Assembly, the left wing Welsh Labour Government, the centre left Scots Government, the NHS, nearly all the unions and I think all of the opposition parties think Johnson acted to early and/or is unprepared for easing lockdown.
I am beginning to see a bit of a pattern here.

Click to expand...

The pattern I do see clearly is your “anti English” and anti government angle that you display on every post you make. 

You appear to be incapable of posting with any balance beyond chips on both shoulders 

And that’s also relevant for the “government can do no wrong” and the people that leap on anyone who displays any sort of critical point whether that be minor or major.


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

PaulS said:



			So far and 🤞it stays that way the virus doesn’t seem to be affecting the under 18’s to any great extent - believe it’s 10 under 18’s who have passed away.
		
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That is correct in terms of children being badly affected by the virus, the worry is much more that asymptomatic kids bring the virus in from home, and pass it on to staff, or to other kids who go home and infect their families. That is a very likely scenario.


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## clubchamp98 (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That is correct in terms of children being badly affected by the virus, the worry is much more that asymptomatic kids bring the virus in from home, and pass it on to staff, or to other kids who go home and infect their families. That is a very likely scenario.
		
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This is our problem.
My daughter is a primary teacher.
My wife is shielding .
She is scared she will bring it home.
I don’t see how she can make an informed decision atm.
Lots of teachers in this position.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That is correct in terms of children being badly affected by the virus, the worry is much more that asymptomatic kids bring the virus in from home, and pass it on to staff, or to other kids who go home and infect their families. That is a very likely scenario.
		
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That is a possible scenario. 

Not necessarily "a very likely " one.

The evidence, either way, is not being presented to teachers to enable them to make an informed rather than emotional decision.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That is correct in terms of children being badly affected by the virus, the worry is much more that asymptomatic kids bring the virus in from home, and pass it on to staff, or to other kids who go home and infect their families. That is a very likely scenario.
		
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Thus is true enough, but there are plenty of staff who are at (effectively) no risk and are not in contact with anyone who is.
There are also plenty of kids from families who are at no risk (most families with junior school aged kids are under 45).
We seem to be painting ourselves into a ridiculous corner where great damage is being done to our society to avoid a tiny chance of death. Our risk compass has been totally miscalibrated


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

PaulS said:



			The pattern I do see clearly is your “anti English” and anti government angle that you display on every post you make.

You appear to be incapable of posting with any balance beyond chips on both shoulders

And that’s also relevant for the “government can do no wrong” and the people that leap on anyone who displays any sort of critical point whether that be minor or major.
		
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Given that DFT has quoted the BMA, the opposition parties, the teachers and the unions, all of whom are predominantly English, I hardly think you can call that an anti-English post.

This just seems to be a cheap shot favoured by a number of posters on here, playing the man and not the ball again. It's getting pretty tedious.


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## PaulS (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Given that DFT has quoted the BMA, the opposition parties, the teachers and the unions, all of whom are predominantly English, I hardly think you can call that an anti-English post.

This just seems to be a cheap shot favoured by a number of posters on here, playing the man and not the ball again. It's getting pretty tedious.
		
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Hence why I also added in the “anti government” as well.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is our problem.
My daughter is a primary teacher.
My wife is shielding .
She is scared she will bring it home.
I don’t see how she can make an informed decision atm.
Lots of teachers in this position.
		
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I can see that this is a genuine problem, but can we not be proactive about this?
Identify staff who are NOT in this position and are able to work.
Offer alternative accommodation to staff who are living with at risk people (but are not their carers).
Just turning off education for millions of kids until an indeterminate future date when all covid is eradicated doesn't seem like a very thoughtful approach.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My friend in Wilts cannot meet with his mum and dad but he can now put his house on the buyers market.
*His mum and dad will be viewing his house three times a week until lockdown ends.*

Click to expand...

Would have to do so separately, if also meeting him though, otherwise he (you friend) would be breaking the rules!


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

PaulS said:



			I don’t think it’s a stretch to see that some teachers along with unions are using the situation to score political points.

The teacher that Sky interviewed saying she doesn’t trust Boris Johnson and his stats etc turned out to be a left wing political activist.

So far and 🤞it stays that way the virus doesn’t seem to be affecting the under 18’s to any great extent - believe it’s 10 under 18’s who have passed away with 9 having serious medical conditions but its going into the unknown.

Whilst there will be teachers who are worried about the virus and the potential damage it could cause if it went through schools the only way is to take people at face value

And if there are teachers that are using it to score political points then they just join thousands of others that are doing - including a good number on here.
		
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I watched the brief last night, and saw some of the ridiculous comments on here. And I've watched it again this morning and then looked at the 5 tests the teacher's union have asked for. I think the union are right to ask for _most_ of what they've asked for...... and strangely enough the testing, and contact tracing, of pupils and teachers was just one of the things covered by last night's brief.

But irrespective of anyone's like or dislike of Gavin Williamson and the Tories, people need to consider not just what the scientific expert said but the tone of her briefing. It was considered and intelligent, and had no bias to it. She spoke of the science, not the politics. If others less scientifically 'aware' want to go against the experts... isn't that just a little Luddite-ish?

I do think there's politics in play here. Some may not even recognise it in themselves, their 'conscious' mistrust of the Tories clouding their views.

That said, I'd prefer the schools not to open in 2 weeks time. Opening in 2 weeks time, in such a limited way, with only 6 weeks of the school years left and pupils not even attending full time just seems a pointless risk. An alternative might be to stop the home schooling now. Give everyone a break but restart the school year in the 3rd week of August and, maybe, pinch some days from the half terms and end of term holidays to make up for the time lost now.

But as for the comment of the Tories looking to drive a division between the union and the teachers or having a go at the teachers in last night's brief - stay off the mushrooms.


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## DanFST (May 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			ITV - "can you guarantee the R rate won't increase"...how do these morons get, and keep, their jobs?
		
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Leave it out, It's not like they've had 9 weeks to learn about it.....


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			That is a possible scenario.

Not necessarily "a very likely " one.

The evidence, either way, is not being presented to teachers to enable them to make an informed rather than emotional decision.
		
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My wife was in work on Friday, setting up her Reception classroom in line with the guidance they have been given. So she has seen the conditions she will be working in. She also knows how 4 year olds interact, and she also knows she will have no protective equipment. Kids of that age are very tactile, forever snotting over teachers, and it's quite common for them to soil themselves, and the staff have to clean them up.

I'd say those factors enable her to make an informed decision rather than an emotional one.

Outside of the NHS and care homes, I can't think of a sector who are being asked to put themselves at such a degree of risk.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

PaulS said:



			The pattern I do see clearly is your “anti English” and anti government angle that you display on every post you make.

You appear to be incapable of posting with any balance beyond chips on both shoulders

And that’s also relevant for the “government can do no wrong” and the people that leap on anyone who displays any sort of critical point whether that be minor or major.
		
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Perhaps you should read the title of the thread!


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Who says that teachers are "scared stiff"?.
		
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My wife said to me. They had a full staff meeting on Friday and that was how the vast majority of them felt.

I'm sure it's the same same in every primary school across the country, but no doubt you know better.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			ITV - "can you guarantee the R rate won't increase"...how do these morons get, and keep, their jobs?
		
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I don't see anything wrong with that question! It actually covers a couple of points (both importance of 'the metric' and the effect of whatever they were asking about). It also invites the interviewee to discuss rather than simply answer 'Yes/No', which is a large part of the interviewer's role. And, in the case of re-opening schools, the interviewee gets to state what action will be taken to ensure hat the 'R' rate in the specific school environment _doesn't_ rise.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			My wife said to me. They had a full staff meeting on Friday and that was how the vast majority of them felt.

I'm sure it's the same same in every primary school across the country, but no doubt you know better.
		
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Well it isn't the case in the school where my son teaches. 

I am not for one minute suggesting that the teachers should not be very  concerned. 

But it would help them to personally reach their decision if the evidence was properly presented rather than the present position which does appear, at least to some teachers, to be more than a little politically motivated.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			An alternative might be to stop the home schooling now. Give everyone a break but restart the school year in the 3rd week of August and, maybe, pinch some days from the half terms and end of term holidays to make up for the time lost now.
		
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Yep. Another decent idea. We can't just go on sitting around waiting for something that isn't going to happen. Peoples' lives are currently being (mis)shaped by this and, as ever, it will be those least able who will be hit the hardest.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Given that DFT has quoted the BMA, the opposition parties, the teachers and the unions, all of whom are predominantly English, I hardly think you can call that an anti-English post.

This just seems to be a cheap shot favoured by a number of posters on here, playing the man and not the ball again. It's getting pretty tedious.
		
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Thank you, yes it is getting more than a bit tedious. But I am well used to it by now.
Funny how a wee while ago a poster who has spent much time strongly critical of BBC anti UK government comments suddenly 'likes' a BBC anti Scottish government post.
Lots of double standards around I am afraid.
Wales Scotland and NI with three totally different political values but only one seems to come under attack from Johnson supporters for taking the same stance.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I don't see anything wrong with that question! It actually covers a couple of points (both importance of 'the metric' and the effect of whatever they were asking about). It also invites the interviewee to discuss rather than simply answer 'Yes/No', which is a large part of the interviewer's role. And, in the case of re-opening schools, the interviewee gets to state what action will be taken to ensure hat the 'R' rate in the specific school environment _doesn't_ rise.
		
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Seriously?

Do you really think it would be possible for a "guarantee" to be given with all that would imply.

Perhaps a question along the lines of "How certain can you be?" but to expect a  guaranteed answer was beyond the level of naivety I would  expect even from a TV journalist.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well it isn't the case in the school where my son teaches. 

I am not for one minute suggesting that the teachers should not be very  concerned. 

But it would help them to personally reach their decision if the evidence was properly presented rather than the present position which does appear, at least to some teachers, to be more than a little politically motivated.
		
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There is also an inherent distrust of unions from many which is politically motivated so alternatively maybe just maybe they are doing their job and are looking after their members by looking for reassurances. A few teachers have already sadly passed away early in this situation and the scientific studies are low and conflicting.
Some see the word union and automatically come to a conclusion so maybe should follow their own advice about not having a preset anti opinion.


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well it isn't the case in the school where my son teaches.

I am not for one minute suggesting that the teachers should not be very  concerned.

But it would help them to personally reach their decision if the evidence was properly presented rather than the present position which does appear, at least to some teachers, to be more than a little politically motivated.
		
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What "Evidence" do you think the teachers are missing?

They watch the same daily briefings that the rest of us do.

They know the conditions they are going to have to work in.

They know how 4 and 5 years old behave.

That's more than enough evidence to make an informed decision.

I'd be interested to know why your son isn't scared. What age group does he teach?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			There is also an inherent distrust of unions from many which is politically motivated so alternatively maybe just maybe they are doing their job and are looking after their members by looking for reassurances. A few teachers have already sadly passed away early in this situation and the scientific studies are low and conflicting.
Some see the word union and automatically come to a conclusion so maybe should follow their own advice about not having a preset anti opinion.
		
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Mine is not an anti-union position. 

It is a position in support of democracy i.e. consult your members before making such important statements regarding their willingness to return to the classroom. 

It was this type of ideological posturing that led to the demise of the NUM.

The miners of the East Midlands largely continued to work not because they were scabs but because Scargill didn't think he needed to consult them.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Mine is not an anti-union position. 

It is a position in support of democracy i.e. consult your members before making such important statements regarding their willingness to return to the classroom. 

It was this type of ideological posturing that led to the demise of the NUM.

The miners of the East Midlands largely continued to work not because they were scabs but because Scargill didn't think he needed to consult them.
		
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The NUM was the very worst type of union which did no favours to the concept but you cannot tar them all with the same brush. In this particular scenario you can't possibly be consulting all your members all of the time with such a fluid situation, it's members need to trust that they have their best interests at heart and are working towards finding a solution. I have a 3 and 7yo and would love them to be back but the evidence needs to be their about how safe it will be for all.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I can see that this is a genuine problem, but can we not be proactive about this?
Identify staff who are NOT in this position and are able to work.
Offer alternative accommodation to staff who are living with at risk people (but are not their carers).
Just turning off education for millions of kids until an indeterminate future date when all covid is eradicated doesn't seem like a very thoughtful approach.
		
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My dilemma with the schools situation is that I want to see children being educated, but I want to see people not being put at unnecessary risk.
Someone made a point about what does  a few weeks difference make to 4 -5 yr olds not going to school. - Good point, period.
Although we have eased lockdown , the emphasis is still on social distancing is it not?
However, kids mingling at school can and will pass on the virus. Not so much because they have covid, but because they touch almost everything in reach including each other etc, and this virus can go from one household to others so easily via the kids., just by touch.
Adults at the child's home are practising SD, but it can all be undone by the child bringing it home, and thus the whole household get it .

I am led to the conclusion that at this time it is better for young children to stay home until the R number is appreciably lower.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Seriously?

Do you really think it would be possible for a "guarantee" to be given with all that would imply.

Perhaps a question along the lines of "How certain can you be?" but to expect a  guaranteed answer was beyond the level of naivety I would  expect even from a TV journalist.
		
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Expecting a 'guarantee' answer is only as 'Seriously?'-ish as expecting the interviewee to give one! It's the way most interviewers work - the likes of Piers Morgan (who would be far more aggressive) excepted!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			What "Evidence" do you think the teachers are missing?

They watch the same daily briefings that the rest of us do.

They know the conditions they are going to have to work in.

They know how 4 and 5 years old behave.

That's more than enough evidence to make an informed decision.

I'd be interested to know why your son isn't scared. What age group does he teach?
		
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The transmission rate from children, including those who are asymptomatic remains unclear.

I would suggest that this is essential information.

My son teaches Years 4 & 5 but assures me that his colleagues teaching the reception and Year 1 & 6 share his views. In any event to incorporate the proposed changes in classroom practices all teaching staff at his school will be involved .

He also has two children of his own of primary school age, one of whom is in Year 1.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			but the evidence needs to be their about how safe it will be for all.
		
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And that is precisely my point. 

Evidence should be provided to parents and teachers but at the moment the waters appear to be muddied by some making decisions based upon politics rather than science.


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			The transmission rate from children, including those who are asymptomatic remains unclear.

I would suggest that this is essential information.

My son teaches Years 4 & 5 but assures me that his colleagues teaching the reception and Year 1 & 6 share his views. In any event to incorporate the proposed changes in classroom practices all teaching staff at his school will be involved .

He also has two children of his own of primary school age, one of whom is in Year 1.
		
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So you don't know the transmission rate, think it is essential information, but think it's a good idea to send kids back anyway? Brilliant logic.

Maybe when your son has had to clean up his first 4 year old pupil who has crapped themselves, he might change his mind about the level of risk.


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## bobmac (May 17, 2020)

What do the scientists say?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And that is precisely my point. 

Evidence should be provided to parents and teachers but at the moment the waters appear to be muddied by some making decisions based upon politics rather than science.
		
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You've no evidence of your last point other than the fact you have an issue with unions. Strong evidence is just not out their yet so I understand their concerns.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So you don't know the transmission rate, think it is essential information, but think it's a good idea to send kids back anyway? Brilliant logic.

Maybe when your son has had to clean up his first 4 year old pupil who has crapped themselves, he might change his mind about the level of risk.
		
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Where have I said that it is unconditional?

My criticism is of those who dismiss the idea without hearing the evidence. 

If the level of risk can be confirmed then a reasoned (not political) decision can be made. 

As to your last point do you really think that in his 10 years of teaching he hasn't experienced his fair share of "accidents".


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			My dilemma with the schools situation is that I want to see children being educated, but I want to see people not being put at unnecessary risk.
Someone made a point about what does  a few weeks difference make to 4 -5 yr olds not going to school. - Good point, period.
Although we have eased lockdown , the emphasis is still on social distancing is it not?
However, kids mingling at school can and will pass on the virus. Not so much because they have covid, but because they touch almost everything in reach including each other etc, and this virus can go from one household to others so easily via the kids., just by touch.
Adults at the child's home are practising SD, but it can all be undone by the child bringing it home, and thus the whole household get it .

I am led to the conclusion that at this time it is better for young children to stay home until the R number is appreciably lower.
		
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By the time they get back to school they will have missed out on far more than a few weeks schooling, plus social development at an important time in their lives.
This is why hobbit's idea makes sense, at least there would be a chance of catching up. 
Personally I think we're being far too relaxed about the long term damage to already disadvantaged young people, and a whole lot too unrelaxed about the level of risk to young people and youngish parents/teachers caused by the virus. 
Maybe all the huffing and puffing and political point scoring will end up with a solution that everyone's comfortable with. I certainly hope so.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			You've no evidence of your last point other than the fact you have an issue with unions. Strong evidence is just not out their yet so I understand their concerns.
		
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Wrong again. 

I have  an issue with union leaders who attempt to pursue an ideological agenda under the guise of "speaking for their members".


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## funkycoldmedina (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Wrong again. 

I have  an issue with union leaders who attempt to pursue an ideological agenda under the guise of "speaking for their members".
		
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You've absolutely no idea if that's what's happening, it's just your own prejudices.
If you can point me to the evidence it's safe  then I'll concede your point.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And that is precisely my point.

Evidence should be provided to parents and teachers but at the moment the waters appear to be muddied by some making decisions based upon politics rather than science.
		
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That's ALWAYS likely to happen - unfortunately!

Your comments DO seem to be tainted by your view on how Unions work though - and that's not meant to be a criticism of your view, as it's one I have a lot of empathy with.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			You've absolutely no idea if that's what's happening, it's just your own prejudices.
If you can point me to the evidence it's safe  then I'll concede your point.
		
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Well SAGE appears to suggest that it should be safe by 1 June and other countries are starting a  return to school.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			...
I have  an issue with union leaders who attempt to pursue an ideological agenda under the guise of "*speaking for their members*".
		
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But having been *voted into their position by 'the members'*, surely  that have a right to declare that expression! Isn't that the 'democracy' you were after earlier?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well SAGE appears to suggest that it should be safe by 1 June and other countries are starting a  return to school.
		
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Is it unreasonable for the unions to see the SAGE reasoning behind the decision?


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## Wolf (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well SAGE appears to suggest that it should be safe by 1 June and other countries are starting a  return to school.
		
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What other countries do is a kop out excuse. The unions and government have a responsibility to this countries teacher's and children only not to anyone else's.

I don't want my Yr1 daughter going back until we know its safe to do so for her and for everyone in the family. They don't live with me but her mum is high risk category with a newborn and I wouldn't want them at risk as a result of my little girl inadvertently bringing it home. So perhaps those scientists could show the actual evidence to help ally those fears.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			But having been *voted into their position by 'the members'*, surely  that have a right to declare that expression! Isn't that the 'democracy' you were after earlier?
		
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Fair point. 

The problem, of course,  lies in the apathy displayed by much of unions' membership. 

As a result the leadership is very rarely, if ever, truly representative of it's members. 

And with a FPTP system the same is true of government.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well SAGE appears to suggest that it should be safe by 1 June and other countries are starting a  return to school.
		
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'Cautious consensus' and 'lack of evidence in the role children play in transmitting the virus is one factor that creates uncertainty in what the impact of opening schools could be.' according to one report from a SAGE participant I've seen. He also stated that 'It is worth reopening schools even if they have to be shut again'.

So not particularly strong argument for such re-opening as 'the right' decision imo!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Is it unreasonable for the unions to see the SAGE reasoning behind the decision?
		
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They had a meeting with SAGE on Friday I believe. 

There appears to be some disagreement over the information and evidence.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			What other countries do is a kop out excuse. The unions and government have a responsibility to this countries teacher's and children only not to anyone else's.

I don't want my Yr1 daughter going back until we know its safe to do so for her and for everyone in the family. They don't live with me but her mum is high risk category with a newborn and I wouldn't want them at risk as a result of my little girl inadvertently bringing it home. So perhaps those scientists could show the actual evidence to help ally those fears.
		
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But what is safe?

Do we keep children out of school until a) a vaccine has been found and b) the whole population have been vaccinated. 

Even then there may still be dangers.


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## Wolf (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But what is safe?

Do we keep children out of school until a) a vaccine has been found and b) the whole population have been vaccinated.

Even then there may still be dangers.
		
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Safe would be showing us the actual evidence that they are supposedly using to send the most inappropriate group of children back to school that have no idea what SD is, to prove there is evidence that this is the correct course of action. 

I've not said we should wait till vaccine but I am saying show us the evidence that proves this is the right decision. I believe Hobbit idea sums it up perfectly, gives more time to reduce R rate and allows for any missed time to be made up and it gives us time to be shown the facts behind this decision. A little transparency is all that's needed.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			What other countries do is a kop out excuse. The unions and government have a responsibility to this countries teacher's and children only not to anyone else's.

I don't want my Yr1 daughter going back until we know its safe to do so for her and for everyone in the family. They don't live with me but her mum is high risk category with a newborn and I wouldn't want them at risk as a result of my little girl inadvertently bringing it home. So perhaps those scientists could show the actual evidence to help ally those fears.
		
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Thus seems reasonable for you and your circumstances, but what about the very large numbers of kids who aren't in this position?
Some sort of middle ground allowing those who can safely return to school to do so, while supporting those who can't is surely better than a blanket closure?
A binary wright/right open/shut all/nothing approach is going to cripple our country.


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## Wolf (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Thus seems reasonable for you and your circumstances, but what about the very large numbers of kids who aren't in this position?
Some sort of middle ground allowing those who can safely return to school to do so, while supporting those who can't is surely better than a blanket closure?
A binary wright/right open/shut all/nothing approach is going to cripple our country.
		
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How do we know its safe to return without the facts being shown to us. I used my daughter as an example but I believe it goes for all in that category of age group they have no idea of SD and its teachers being put at risk as much as the children's families. I have older children who better understand SD & what's happening who would be lower risk of breaking SD yet they're deemed not suitable so must remain at home but their little sister who is tactile and doesn't get it is safe to return! 

All those being put at risk in this situation deserve to be shown the facts to ensure the reason behind it. 

A teacher will tell my child to show her workings out when she does sums, so why should we expect teachers to go back with the hardest group to control without showing them the workings out the government has used to decide this is best course of action.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

Someone mentioned that the passing of the infection between the young and their teachers isn't known. Unfortunately the only way to find out is by the children going back to school. Isn't that like inventing dynamite and asking shall I hold it in one hand and see what happens when I put a match to it?


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Someone mentioned that the passing of the infection between the young and their teachers isn't known. Unfortunately the only way to find out is by the children going back to school. Isn't that like inventing dynamite and asking shall I hold it in one hand and see what happens when I put a match to it?
		
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I'm sure when dynamite was invented it was for a specific purpose of blowing things up so that wouldnt be a great idea 😊
The difficulty is knowing when the right time is here, I guess the answer is 'when it's safe for them'  but people cant have their cake and eat it, Children either stay away from school until the virus is under control or when theres a chance they could catch and spread it.  A really difficult decision and one I'm glad I dont have to make.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Someone mentioned that the passing of the infection between the young and their teachers isn't known. Unfortunately the only way to find out is by the children going back to school. Isn't that like inventing dynamite and asking shall I hold it in one hand and see what happens when I put a match to it?
		
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Despite there being many unknowns, what IS known is that children are essentially unaffected by the virus, and if the teacher is under the age of 40 without any significant health issues, so are they.
There has to be a better way of managing this. We also know for sure that that for many young people, their only way out of some very grim situations is a decent education.


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## drdel (May 17, 2020)

The virus is pretty mild in the vast majority of people. Those below 60 are unlikely to need hospitalisation.

Risks to kids are low to very low and most teachers are quite young so provided SD with the vulnerable is maintained the rise in 'R' is also very low. 

The level of the rate of infection is very low across most of the UK.

The data bank used by the modellers is vast and the models would not be understood by lay people so releasing the evidence is just not feasible. In any case the data is in the public domain (ONS).

The virus is already within the community so, although low, the risk is going to be prevalent for years. Waiting much longer is not a realistic proposition.


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2020)

Mick Cash the Leader of the Rail and Transport Union was on the last question time. Did anyone who saw it rate him well?


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Despite there being many unknowns, what IS known is that children are essentially unaffected by the virus, and if the teacher is under the age of 40 without any significant health issues, so are they.
There has to be a better way of managing this. We also know for sure that that for many young people, their only way out of some very grim situations is a decent education.
		
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I think it needs a change of mindset. As unpalatable as it might seem to some we need to accept that it is another disease that will sit in the background of our life. Unfortunately it isn't there yet.

Typhoid sits in the background, as does cholera, Dengue fever and a whole host of very nasty diseases. Go back not that far in history and you'll find polio was greatly feared(60's), and it isn't that long ago that Smallpox was officially eradicated.

Call it birthing pains for want of a better way but, eventually, Covid needs to be thought of in the same way.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			The virus is pretty mild in the vast majority of people. Those below 60 are unlikely to need hospitalisation.

Risks to kids are low to very low and most teachers are quite young so provided SD with the vulnerable is maintained the rise in 'R' is also very low. 

The level of the rate of infection is very low across most of the UK.

The data bank used by the modellers is vast and the models would not be understood by lay people so releasing the evidence is just not feasible. In any case the data is in the public domain (ONS).

The virus is already within the community so, although low, the risk is going to be prevalent for years. Waiting much longer is not a realistic proposition.
		
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They don't understand yet how the virus is spread among children, how easily it can be passed onto adults by children and when they do what kind of viral load they can carry. Maybe it would be prudent to wait another month whilst data is collected from other nations who are going back.
I also think when the kids do go back they should provide free after school care so grand parents aren't doing the wrap around care otherwise we run the strong possibility of another surge in the over 65's


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## funkycoldmedina (May 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Mick Cash the Leader of the Rail and Transport Union was on the last question time. Did anyone who saw it rate him well?
		
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So let's write off all the rest of his union because you don't like him?


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think it needs a change of mindset. As unpalatable as it might seem to some we need to accept that it is another disease that will sit in the background of our life. Unfortunately it isn't there yet.

Typhoid sits in the background, as does cholera, Dengue fever and a whole host of very nasty diseases. Go back not that far in history and you'll find polio was greatly feared(60's), and it isn't that long ago that Smallpox was officially eradicated.

Call it birthing pains for want of a better way but, eventually, Covid needs to be thought of in the same way.
		
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This is it in a nutshell.
We just don't seem to have managed to get there just yet!
Measles is contagious, actually kills and damages children (much more than covid), yet we accept it as a risk of sending kids to school.
There's obviously not a perfect solution, but at the moment we don't seem particularly close to even a least bad one.


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			The virus is pretty mild in the vast majority of people. Those below 60 are unlikely to need hospitalisation.
Risks to kids are low to very low and most teachers are quite young so provided SD with the vulnerable is maintained the rise in 'R' is also very low.
The level of the rate of infection is very low across most of the UK.
...
		
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Legitimate reasoning for satisfaction (perhaps) of the 'Protect the NHS' slogan ONLY. And I'd disagree with 0,7 to 1.0 being 'very low'! 'Manageable' (2 steps up) would likely be a better description imo. Kids of the type identified seem, to me, to be the group most likely to break the SD rule - without a lot of education about why it's required at school and not at home. It's quite possible that closing schools was one of the most significant decisions that refuced 'R'!


drdel said:



			...
The data bank used by the modellers is vast and the models would not be understood by lay people so releasing the evidence is just not feasible. In any case the data is in the public domain (ONS).
....
		
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Then someone needs to (honestly) summarise it for 'the Public' if they (especially sceptics with 'axes to grind') are to be convinced that decisions based upon it are legitimate!


drdel said:



			...
The virus is already within the community so, although low, the risk is going to be prevalent for years. ...
		
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That's why it's imperative an anti-virus is developed! But that's still a considerable way off. 


drdel said:



			...
...Waiting much longer is not a realistic proposition.
		
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It would be an absolute disaster if all the sacrifice - economic and social - was wasted by a too early return to 'normality'!


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			So let's write off all the rest of his union because you don't like him?
		
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We need a separate thread for this!!


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Mick Cash the Leader of the Rail and Transport Union was on the last question time. Did anyone who saw it rate him well?
		
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Notwithstanding a (legitimate) bias towards Union members rather than 'the Public', this article https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...R65BcG6hkVnX2z7lX7-KSVzmYShgTeUyVeQaYRjhd64Pk  seemed to be common sense!


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Fair point.

The problem, of course,  lies in the apathy displayed by much of unions' membership.

As a result the leadership is very rarely, if ever, truly representative of it's members.

And with a FPTP system the same is true of government.
		
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its it the Unions responsibility to act in the best interested of its members?

are you saying they are not?


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## Kellfire (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			This is it in a nutshell.
We just don't seem to have managed to get there just yet!
Measles is contagious, actually kills and damages children (much more than covid), yet we accept it as a risk of sending kids to school.
There's obviously not a perfect solution, but at the moment we don't seem particularly close to even a least bad one.
		
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Good example you used with measles as it’s new, not totally understood and we don’t have a vaccination for it. 

Oh wait no, that’s the opposite of the truth about measles.


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## clubchamp98 (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Despite there being many unknowns, what IS known is that children are essentially unaffected by the virus, and if the teacher is under the age of 40 without any significant health issues, so are they.
There has to be a better way of managing this. We also know for sure that that for many young people, their only way out of some very grim situations is a decent education.
		
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A lot of those teachers still live with their parents though.
That’s a problem.
It’s the Head Teachers that are driving this atm they are in touch with their staff and the Unions.
Sage is saying it’s safe, but they said that about Care Homes as well and that didn’t pan out to well.


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## doublebogey7 (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			This is it in a nutshell.
We just don't seem to have managed to get there just yet!
Measles is contagious, actually kills and damages children (much more than covid), yet we accept it as a risk of sending kids to school.
There's obviously not a perfect solution, but at the moment we don't seem particularly close to even a least bad one.
		
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Except we have a vacine for measles,  we are a long way from having one for CV


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So the BMA, the Teachers, the right wing unionist NI Assembly, the left wing Welsh Labour Government, the centre left Scots Government, many local mayors and local governments, the NHS, nearly all the unions and I think all of the opposition parties think Johnson acted to early and/or is unprepared for easing lockdown.
I am beginning to see a bit of a pattern here.

Click to expand...

Yep, the pattern is, it's back to being political


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

From the point of view of child health, one is far more unpleasant than the other, and it's not the one without the vaccine.


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## Reemul (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			The transmission rate from children, including those who are asymptomatic remains unclear.

I would suggest that this is essential information.

My son teaches Years 4 & 5 but assures me that his colleagues teaching the reception and Year 1 & 6 share his views. In any event to incorporate the proposed changes in classroom practices all teaching staff at his school will be involved .

He also has two children of his own of primary school age, one of whom is in Year 1.
		
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My wife is year 2 teacher, her teachers feel year's key stage 2 pupils would have a far better understanding of SD than KS1 and year's 5 and 6 should be going back not reception and year 1. I cannot talk for any other teachers anywhere else.

I still have a massive dislike for anyone that seems to say because someone I know thinks this so it must be true or representative of others.


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## drdel (May 17, 2020)

The safe assumption is that kids will be just as infectious as adults. The impact may differ with age but IMO the transmission propensity ain't going to be significantly different.


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

Is there any scientific rationale behind the decision to send 4 and 5 year olds back to school long before sending teenagers back?

Or is a purely political decision based on it being an expedient way of providing free day care for younger kids so their parents can go back to work, while teenagers can fend for themselves?


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			The safe assumption is that kids will be just as infectious as adults. The impact may differ with age but IMO the transmission propensity ain't going to be significantly different.
		
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Your assumption in the first sentence is correct. The ONS confirmed it last week based on a large test sample.


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			So let's write off all the rest of his union because you don't like him?
		
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That's an odd remark. Where did I write off the rest of his Union.  I was just unimpressed with him.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

Can I just say at a chair of governors at a primary there has been some good points made about schools reopening, plus the occasional bit of the usual uninformed rubbish.

Truth be told there is no simple answer. Each school is risk assessing whether they should open or not. Then each parent will risk assess if they will send their children in. There are very strong arguments in both sides, for every child that is getting a good education at home and would not be impacted that much of they did not go in till September, there will be a child who is being mostly neglected and falling further and further behind.

I agree that this subject does get very emotional for parents and staff. Also society as a whole could do with a better understanding of risk with regards to probability, impact and the difference between risk mitigation and elimination.

It is essentially a heads decision after they have consulted with all the stakeholders (staff, parents, governors) and I'd say just about every head is under a tremendous amount of stress, which we all need to remember.


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			So let's write off all the rest of his union because you don't like him?
		
Click to expand...

Breaking news.... "right wing Tory boy, unimpressed with Union leader"


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I just say at a chair of governors at a primary there has been some good points made about schools reopening, plus the occasional bit of the usual uninformed rubbish.

Truth be told there is no simple answer. Each school is risk assessing whether they should open or not. Then each parent will risk assess if they will send their children in. There are very strong arguments in both sides, *for every child that is getting a good education at home and would not be impacted that much of they did not go in till September, there will be a child who is being mostly neglected and falling further and further behind.*

Click to expand...

My son's girlfriend is a science teacher at a local high school. She is setting lots of work for them online but is massively frustrated as not many of them are doing the work they are being set. I'd say there is more chance of primary pupils being well schooled at home than there is for high school students. Parents have more control over young kids, and also understand the subjects better. Teenagers hide away from their parents who don't see and probably wouldn't understand the work they are supposed to be doing.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			My son's girlfriend is a science teacher at a local high school. She is setting lots of work for them online but is massively frustrated as not many of them are doing the work they are being set. *I'd say there is more chance of primary pupils being well schooled at home than there is for high school students*. Parents have more control over young kids, and also understand the subjects better. Teenagers hide away from their parents who don't see and probably wouldn't understand the work they are supposed to be doing.
		
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Yes that may well be true.  But also the attitude of parents which is a major factor in kids attainment will have an impact.  So there are many primary school kids who have had an unfair start in life already as their parents do not engage with their education who are falling further and further behind. Schools will have to do a hell of a lot of catching up for some pupils when they eventually get back if we are not going to have an even larger generation of educationally lost kids. And if they do not get the building blocks right at the start of primary then there is a big chance it will screw them up for the rest of their education and they will underachieve.


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes that may well be true.  But also the attitude of parents which is a major factor in kids attainment will have an impact.  So there are many primary school kids who have had an unfair start in life already as their parents do not engage with their education who are falling further and further behind. Schools will have to do a hell of a lot of catching up for some pupils when they eventually get back if we are not going to have an even larger generation of educationally lost kids. And if they do not get the building blocks right at the start of primary then there is a big chance it will screw them up for the rest of their education and they will underachieve.
		
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Totally agree, parents are every bit as important as teachers in their child's education. Too many of them don't understand that or care about it. My wife works with 4 year olds who are not properly toilet-trained because the parents can't be bothered to teach them.


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Breaking news.... "right wing Tory boy, unimpressed with Union leader"

Click to expand...

He came over as not being very bright, blinkered in his views and certainly had  problems articulating himself.


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## Reemul (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes that may well be true.  But also the attitude of parents which is a major factor in kids attainment will have an impact.  So there are many primary school kids who have had an unfair start in life already as their parents do not engage with their education who are falling further and further behind. Schools will have to do a hell of a lot of catching up for some pupils when they eventually get back if we are not going to have an even larger generation of educationally lost kids. And if they do not get the building blocks right at the start of primary then there is a big chance it will screw them up for the rest of their education and they will underachieve.
		
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Yep but sending them back for 6 weeks will not address this. The focus is on childcare for the 6 weeks not education. Phonics will be the focus at my wife's school, no shared resouces and minimal contact means the lessons are simple and basic.

Add to this as my wife will be teaching 15 year 1 kids she will not have time to set her year 2 classes the same amount and level of work as she is in year one so all pupils working form home are getting less teaching and simpler work too. So they are now going to suffer more.

The reality is there are not enough resources to split the school in two and set the correct work regardless of how you portray it.


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## clubchamp98 (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Is there any scientific rationale behind the decision to send 4 and 5 year olds back to school long before sending teenagers back?

Or is a purely political decision based on it being an expedient way of providing free day care for younger kids so their parents can go back to work, while teenagers can fend for themselves?
		
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Hit the nail on the head there imo.
Hands up how many of us would fancy being in a room with 10/15 strangers on 1st June.
That’s what they are asking teachers to do.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

Reemul said:



			My wife is year 2 teacher, her teachers feel year's key stage 2 pupils would have a far better understanding of SD than KS1 and year's 5 and 6 should be going back not reception and year 1. I cannot talk for any other teachers anywhere else.

I still have a massive dislike for anyone that seems to say because someone I know thinks this so it must be true or representative of others.
		
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Which was exactly my original point when I questioned the claim that teachers were scared stiff, the implication being all teachers. 

All teachers will surely have their own opinion on this as on other issues. 

My concern is that they still require objective evidence to assist them in reaching their decision.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

Reemul said:



			My wife is year 2 teacher, her teachers feel year's key stage 2 pupils would have a far better understanding of SD than KS1 and year's 5 and 6 should be going back not reception and year 1. I cannot talk for any other teachers anywhere else.

I still have a massive dislike for anyone that seems to say because someone I know thinks this so it must be true or representative of others.
		
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The above with brass knobs on.

#3 daughter teaches in a Primary, and #2 daughter is admin in a Secondary. There seem to be a number of variations of themes. As idealistic as it might seem, if one teacher, member of staff or pupil dies because of going back early for the sake of a few weeks worth of disjointed education from, potentially, the wrong teachers... no, its just plain wrong.

A simple question to each of you to ask individually of yourself. Would you sacrifice one child for the economy?


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## Fade and Die (May 17, 2020)

The Unions have every right to stop their members going to work if they think their members are at risk.
The HSE has made exposure to Coronavirus in the workplace RIDDOR reportable. 
https://www.hse.gov.uk/news/riddor-reporting-coronavirus.htm


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

Do we trust the science or do our own thing. Oh hang on there is a large minority of the country doing their own thing because their own things is what they want to do. In the end the difficult decision must be made and we will have to trust those who's responsibilities it is to make those decisions. It will mean overcoming fear and in some cases the prejudices that some will have against those giving the decisions.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			The Unions have every right to stop their members going to work if they think their members are at risk.
The HSE has made exposure to Coronavirus in the workplace RIDDOR reportable.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/news/riddor-reporting-coronavirus.htm

Click to expand...

They do not have the right to stop them going to work. The only person that has that right is employer and the individual worker, and as the HSE can take both the employer and the employee to court, it puts the employee in a difficult position. The Union can recommend it, but that's all.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A simple question to each of you to ask individually of yourself. Would you sacrifice one child for the economy?
		
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Okay, I'll bite. As a member of a society in which children have died (been killed) as part of a functioning economy (road traffic accident as an example) I believe that we have all effectively sacrificed lives for the greater good. 
I don't believe that this is a helpful or meaningful path to go down.
And, less we forget, they are more likely to be killed on the way to school than by the virus on the currently available stats.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Okay, I'll bite. As a member of a society in which children have died (been killed) as part of a functioning economy (road traffic accident as an example) I believe that we have all effectively sacrificed lives for the greater good.
I don't believe that this is a helpful or meaningful path to go down.
And, less we forget, they are more likely to be killed on the way to school than by the virus on the currently available stats.
		
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That's disappointing. We don't sacrifice for the greater good, they're a consequence of the society we've created. Sacrifice is a conscious act. 

If asked would you put up one of your children for death first? You're willing to sacrifice someone else's, how about one of yours first?


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Okay, I'll bite. As a member of a society in which children have died (been killed) as part of a functioning economy (road traffic accident as an example) I believe that we have all effectively sacrificed lives for the greater good. 
I don't believe that this is a helpful or meaningful path to go down.
And, less we forget, they are more likely to be killed on the way to school than by the virus on the currently available stats.
		
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The odd thing about my wanton callousness is that I am a died in the wool lefty-ish anti-corporatist  (maybe they're the worst sort for this sort of thing).  But from this viewpoint I see every day of our current strategy disadvantaging thousands of the most disadvantaged Kids, and likely throwing millions of the youngest and lowest paid into long term unemployment and penury(sp).
This makes me very unhappy.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			That's disappointing. We don't sacrifice for the greater good, they're a consequence of the society we've created. Sacrifice is a conscious act. 

If asked would you put up one of your children for death first? You're willing to sacrifice someone else's, how about one of yours first?
		
Click to expand...

Well, I actually put my own life at risk every day. Does that help? I travel by public transport, I work in an environment where I am using equipment used by many other people.  I take the view that my risk of unpleasantness is not that high, and that I will probably live to see another day. 
As for my own kids, I genuinely believe them to be perfectly safe and that the near certainty of one of them losing their job will have an exponentially more negative effect on her life chances and health than contracting the virus.
Seems reasonable to me, I understand others feel differently, I have no problem with that.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Indeed. But that will also require an effort from those making the decisions to earn back the trust of those who, rightly or wrongly, have lost it.
		
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But that is an impossible ask because, as you can read on here, those giving the advice, scientific or otherwise are seen as the mouthpiece of a political party forgetting that the scientists giving the advice have an arm full of qualifications behind them. Whether we like it or not, we have to trust or lock ourselves away.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think it needs a change of mindset. As unpalatable as it might seem to some we need to accept that it is another disease that will sit in the background of our life. Unfortunately it isn't there yet.

T*yphoid sits in the background, as does cholera, Dengue fever and a whole host of very nasty diseases*. Go back not that far in history and you'll find polio was greatly feared(60's), and it isn't that long ago that Smallpox was officially eradicated.

Call it birthing pains for want of a better way but, eventually, Covid needs to be thought of in the same way.
		
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Yes, but the background is somewhere over the oceans😀
This thing is in the foreground at the moment , hundreds of deaths per day still ( well, maybe not all because of covid, but with covid-another discussion), but at the moment covid is banging at the door and cannot be dealt with in the same manner as the diseases you've mentioned. 
Covid will sit in the same room as them when the vaccine is here, or when we have herd immunity. Both are some way off. Which is where your ' eventually' is to be found.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			From the point of view of child health, one is far more unpleasant than the other, and it's not the one without the vaccine.
		
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What you have said is in itself true, but why are you saying it?
If you think the last few pages have been only about children's health, then you need to start again.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The odd thing about my wanton callousness is that I am a died in the wool lefty-ish anti-corporatist  (maybe they're the worst sort for this sort of thing).  But from this viewpoint I see every day of our current strategy disadvantaging thousands of the most disadvantaged Kids, and likely throwing millions of the youngest and lowest paid into long term unemployment and penury(sp).
This makes me very unhappy.
		
Click to expand...

I feel your pain. But having made it to senior management I felt there was a 3rd way. Look after your most expensive asset and they will look after you. But do you want someone disadvantaged for x years, with the opportunity to pull things around, or do you want them dead.

I can't remember the last time I was on public transport. But I can remember the last time I was blue'd up, double gloved up, cap, mask and goggles. And I do remember the isolation/barrier rooms, and going in there. We chose the risks for ourselves, and were properly 'armoured' for it. Will the children be so 'armoured?'


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, but the background is somewhere over the oceans😀
This thing is in the foreground at the moment , hundreds of deaths per day still ( well, maybe not all because of covid, but with covid-another discussion), but at the moment covid is banging at the door and cannot be dealt with in the same manner as the diseases you've mentioned.
Covid will sit in the same room as them when the vaccine is here, or when we have herd immunity. Both are some way off. Which is where your ' eventually' is to be found.
		
Click to expand...

It isn't a flick of the switch solution. Obviously the vaccines and driving it down need to happen, just have they have for the diseases listed. And that was exactly point I was trying to make. Over time, with the right outcomes, that's where we've got to consign Covid 19. But let's not forget, Coronavirus, in its first known guise, was identified in 1931.. Another outbreak in 1965, then SARS and MERS.

When Boris said there might not be a vaccine, it wasn't a clumsy comment. Granted this is the most virulent version of Corona virus, and a lot more effort is going into finding solutions, but we might just have to learn to live with it just as the Subcontinent has had to learn to live with Typhoid etc.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Yep but sending them back for 6 weeks will not address this. The focus is on childcare for the 6 weeks not education. Phonics will be the focus at my wife's school*,* no shared resouces and minimal contact means the lessons are simple and basic.

Add to this as my wife will be teaching 15 year 1 kids she will not have time to set her year 2 classes the same amount and level of work as she is in year one so all pupils working form home are getting less teaching and simpler work too. So they are now going to suffer more.

The reality is there are not enough resources to split the school in two and set the correct work regardless of how you portray it.
		
Click to expand...

Schools will be risk assessing if they can make it work, some schools will be doing split classes with days off in the week where there are no kids in for teachers to catch up/set other work. Other will take different approaches.  I agree that in most primaries the resources are not enough to have all year R,1 and 6 classes in whilst they are trying to keep them apart in pods and also set work for kids at home, plus those in year R,1 and 6 who do not come in.  So a compromise will be worked out if possible.  I know plenty of schools who have done this, they are planning to provide what they can based on the advice but taking into account local circumstances at the school.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I*s there any scientific rationale behind the decision to send 4 and 5 year olds back to school long before sending teenagers back?*

Or is a purely political decision based on it being an expedient way of providing free day care for younger kids so their parents can go back to work, while teenagers can fend for themselves?
		
Click to expand...

It is based on the potential harm an increasing lack of proper education will have on their future ability to cope in schools.  There are several things that kids at 4 and 5 need to have in place if they are able to learn effectively as they move through primaries, sort of the building blocks.  And the longer they do not get these, the theory is the more they will struggle later on in schools.  So it is mostly an education theory based decision as opposed to a scientific decision over who is less likely to pass things on.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			W*hich was exactly my original point when I questioned the claim that teachers were scared stif*f, the implication being all teachers.

All teachers will surely have their own opinion on this as on other issues.

My concern is that they still require objective evidence to assist them in reaching their decision.
		
Click to expand...

From my personal experience of several schools I would say teachers are at best apprehensive with most being still very concerned.  Especially as logically they are being asked to go into a position where realistically in primaries they will not be able to completely social distance, and the kids definitely will not.  When at the same time the rest of the population is being asked to always socially distance. But just about all of them want to provide the best education they can for their classes so a lot of them are very torn and having to make some tough decisions. And throughout all schools now the heads are talking to the staff, going through the advice so staff are getting a lot of objective evidence.


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## DanFST (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We chose the risks for ourselves, and were properly 'armoured' for it. Will the children be so 'armoured?'
		
Click to expand...


Unfortunately 2 children under 14 have lost their lives in the UK with Covid on the death certificate, that's tragic. In the New York of the 16,000 deaths at the time of my data, 3 were under 17 with no existing conditions, I feel for the parents.

Children are inherently armoured from this whatever reason. Horribly, had school been in session, statistically more would have died in transit. As callous as it may sound, that is not a logical reason for kids not to be at school. Far more will suffer with a lack of education, what if we don't get a vaccine out for 2 years?


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

One other things to bear in mind is that if you do send your child to school in the 1st wave then from a social distancing perspective it will be as safe as it ever can be, due to the limited numbers that will be in. If there is an expectation that they are all back come September then that will pose significant issues with social distancing in most schools. So I'd say the R rate really does need to drop for that to have any chance of happening. And I would argue this is one of the reasons why they are trying to start now to gradually increase capacity.  As if you start in September then in reality all kids will not be in from day 1, so in the governments mind you are potentially looking at even more time being lost to educate the kids.


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## pendodave (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			From my personal experience of several schools I would say teachers are at best apprehensive with most being still very concerned.  Especially as logically they are being asked to go into a position where realistically in primaries they will not be able to completely social distance, and the kids definitely will not.  When at the same time the rest of the population is being asked to always socially distance. But just about all of them want to provide the best education they can for their classes so a lot of them are very torn and having to make some tough decisions. And throughout all schools now the heads are talking to the staff, going through the advice so staff are getting a lot of objective evidence.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for these answers. They're thoughtful and coherent. Good luck in the next few weeks.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Unfortunately 2 children under 14 have lost their lives in the UK with Covid on the death certificate, that's tragic. In the New York of the 16,000 deaths at the time of my data, 3 were under 17 with no existing conditions, I feel for the parents.

Children are inherently armoured from this whatever reason. Horribly, had school been in session, statistically more would have died in transit. As callous as it may sound, that is not a logical reason for kids not to be at school. Far more will suffer with a lack of education, what if we don't get a vaccine out for 2 years?
		
Click to expand...

I get where you're coming from, and accept that I'm being an idealist. But don't forget, in accepting that children are, to a large extent, immune from it the teacher isn't under 17. What 'armour' will teachers have?

As for suffering from lack of education, again, I get where you're coming from but if the choice is to die from Covid or to be a labourer instead of a brain surgeon, what is the best choice, life or death.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Thanks for these answers. They're thoughtful and coherent. Good luck in the next few weeks.
		
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Cheers bud.  Don't worry, I'll revert back to sarcasm and petty politics soon.


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## User20205 (May 17, 2020)

Statistically the risk to kids does seem low, but you can mitigate travel, exposure to other ‘threats’ etc. I’m not sure that you can currently mitigate for this in a school environment. My kids school x2 (same trust) seem to be pushing for a sept return, I’m ok with this, even if it means fundamentally changing my working pattern. 
What is irritating me about this thread tho, is posters pontificating re schooling, re the heath risks to kids & teachers, who clearly have no skin in the game.


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## User20205 (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Cheers bud.  Don't worry, I'll revert back to sarcasm and petty politics soon. 

Click to expand...

Question HK. You’re on the board of a state school, I believe your kids go private, what differences, If any,  are there in approach re these 2?


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## DanFST (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I get where you're coming from, and accept that I'm being an idealist. But don't forget, in accepting that children are, to a large extent, immune from it the teacher isn't under 17. What 'armour' will teachers have?

As for suffering from lack of education, again, I get where you're coming from but if the choice is to die from Covid or to be a labourer instead of a brain surgeon, what is the best choice, life or death.
		
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I agree that's another debate (one I can see more weight in) 

Who knows what will be put in place for teachers, I haven't seen anything concrete so can't really debate! 

FWIW: 2 of my teacher friends are still teaching, they are my age (just under 30). Annoyed they aren't going to be able to see their parents until antibody tests come through(but isn't that the same for every key worker, or someone going out everyday to the shops?) But not worried for themselves.


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## chrisd (May 17, 2020)

Just listening to Lord Sumption advocating that there should be no lockdown and that everyone should be allowed to do as they wish in regard to self isolating. Seem oblivious of the fact that its not about whether he gets it, its how many die from his passing it on. What a dick!


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## rosecott (May 17, 2020)

Has a serial poster we all know been out with the spray can?


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

therod said:



			Question HK. *You’re on the board of a state school,* I believe your kids go private, what differences, If any,  are there in approach re these 2?
		
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It's actually part of an academy trust.  My daughter is at secondary level and is not in one of the years they are focusing on at that level so she is still being home schooled. So I do not know what private primaries are planning. Although I'd expect they would be doing the same as state schools in terms of risk assessments. However there may well be a bit more pressure on private schools to open as parents are paying what is usually a fair whack for them to educate their kids in schools. 

This is in fact another area where privately educated kids, who already have advantages, may be get even more advantages.  As in general the quality of the private school home schooling set will be very high as again, parents are paying for it. So private schools want to keep the paying parents especially happy. I've done no home schooling myself as the school makes sure she has all she needs without parents needing to do anything. There is some great home schooling going on in the non-private sector, but for completely understandable reasons the quality is more variable. So on average the longer home schooling goes on for I'd say the larger the gap may be, which may well become visible in future years exam results. 

As for how I feel about this then as a parent I am obviously OK with it. As a chair of governors at a non-private school I want to ensure that non-privately educated kids get the best chances in life and the best education. And that may, or may not mean going back to school as soon as possible.


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## drdel (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I get where you're coming from, and accept that I'm being an idealist. But don't forget, in accepting that children are, to a large extent, immune from it the teacher isn't under 17. What 'armour' will teachers have?

As for suffering from lack of education, again, I get where you're coming from but if the choice is to die from Covid or to be a labourer instead of a brain surgeon, what is the best choice, life or death.
		
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Dont you think those two statements are a tad extreme. Kids are not "immune" to the virus: they can catch it and pass it on just like other people. However the health impact upon them is far less. For teachers the risk is there but it is actually quite small. There are areas of the country where the infection rate is very, very low so there will be many schools that will not be at any risk: going to supermarkets with parents probably is as risky to the kids and teachers.

Your last paragraph is again somewhat extreme "life or death" really: the vast majority of deaths are to the elderly and fat who have underlying medical conditions. Medical staff are well trained and know how the equip themselves. We also know that avoiding the viral load is very important to the severity of any resulting illness.

The 'viral load' is also important when you consider how exposed the average person is during normal external situations; few occassions of general public's interactions will be beyond the 10 to 15 minutes.

The situation is serious and need managing carefully but, if we're honest, the public on-mass can be pretty unintelligent and I think the statistics tend to become interpreted at the extremes: the risk of contracting it is low and the risk of dying is much, much lower. That said no-one would willing expose anyone if it is reasonably possible to prevent it.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Just listening to Lord Sumption advocating that there should be no lockdown and that everyone should be allowed to do as they wish in regard to self isolating. Seem oblivious of the fact that its not about whether he gets it, its how many die from his passing it on. What a dick!
		
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Mans brain obviously went AWOL


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			Dont you think those two statements are a tad extreme. Kids are not "immune" to the virus: they can catch it and pass it on just like other people. However the health impact upon them is far less. For teachers the risk is there but it is actually quite small. There are areas of the country where the infection rate is very, very low so there will be many schools that will not be at any risk: going to supermarkets with parents probably is as risky to the kids and teachers.

Your last paragraph is again somewhat extreme "life or death" really: the vast majority of deaths are to the elderly and fat who have underlying medical conditions. Medical staff are well trained and know how the equip themselves. We also know that avoiding the viral load is very important to the severity of any resulting illness.

The 'viral load' is also important when you consider how exposed the average person is during normal external situations; few occassions of general public's interactions will be beyond the 10 to 15 minutes.

The situation is serious and need managing carefully but, if we're honest, the public on-mass can be pretty unintelligent and I think the statistics tend to become interpreted at the extremes: the risk of contracting it is low and the risk of dying is much, much lower. That said no-one would willing expose anyone if it is reasonably possible to prevent it.
		
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Aren't we now playing with semantics for the sake of splitting a few hairs. You know what I'm trying to get across, just as I know where you're coming from. But to use your point of the public being unintelligent, doesn't the message have to be, er very blunt to get that message across in a language they understand.

Seriously, I'm not arguing with the thread of what you're saying, and I do think we're on different parts of the same page. However, you acknowledge the teachers are more in the at risk age demographic but seem to be willing to accept them as collateral damage based on the probability of a % of the age group, not their age itself.

Maybe I'm missing something there. let's just agree we're on different parts of the page. Besides, my brandy infused chicken and mixed herbs stew is ready.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			are you sure you didn't confuse him with a Conservative MP... ?
		
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Nah, sounds more like the chair of Momentum


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Mick Cash the Leader of the Rail and Transport Union was on the last question time. Did anyone who saw it rate him well?
		
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He spoke up for his members. He was a little bit of a dinosaur with some of what he said, and he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer but I thought he was fine. I didn't agree with some of his politics but that doesn't make his politics wrongs, just a different flavour. Too old school Labour for me, but Labour is supposed to be a broad church.


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Nah, sounds more like the chair of Momentum
		
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what makes you say that?


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## User20205 (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's actually part of an academy trust.  My daughter is at secondary level and is not in one of the years they are focusing on at that level so she is still being home schooled. So I do not know what private primaries are planning. Although I'd expect they would be doing the same as state schools in terms of risk assessments. However there may well be a bit more pressure on private schools to open as parents are paying what is usually a fair whack for them to educate their kids in schools.

This is in fact another area where privately educated kids, who already have advantages, may be get even more advantages.  As in general the quality of the private school home schooling set will be very high as again, parents are paying for it. So private schools want to keep the paying parents especially happy. I've done no home schooling myself as the school makes sure she has all she needs without parents needing to do anything. There is some great home schooling going on in the non-private sector, but for completely understandable reasons the quality is more variable. So on average the longer home schooling goes on for I'd say the larger the gap may be, which may well become visible in future years exam results.

As for how I feel about this then as a parent I am obviously OK with it. As a chair of governors at a non-private school I want to ensure that non-privately educated kids get the best chances in life and the best education. And that may, or may not mean going back to school as soon as possible.
		
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Cheers for the insight. From a personal point of view I’ve really enjoyed the home schooling. It’s given us a structure & I’m happy to play the part of ‘teacher‘. I was determined before this, to be far more engaged in my kids eduction than my parents were in mine. This have given me a chance to step up. I am fortunate though, being furloughed. 
I also know anecdotally, some of my kids peers are doing very little.
Mine are year 5 & 7, I genuinely reckon their schooling won’t suffer, as there’s no hiding place in a class of 1!! 
Re private schooling, I’ve got a golfing mate who forks out a few quid so his kids can be educated. The parents at his school seem to be applying pressure for the pupils to go back, so they can get ‘value’.


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## chrisd (May 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Mans brain obviously went AWOL
		
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Agreed! It was one of the most stupid interviews I've heard during the pandemic 😖


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## bobmac (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had a bit of a low day this week after seeing a couple of experts on the tv discussing the pandemic. One who was talking about vaccines was pressed on when we might get one and, when pushed, he said his "optimistic" guess was that it's 50/50 whether there will ever be an effective vaccine.
		
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Who was the expert saying that Karen?
For balance........

_Sarah Gilbert, professor of vaccinology at Oxford University, previously said she is ’80 per cent’ confident that the vaccine her team are working on would be successful._


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/17/uk-l...vaccine-early-september-12716031/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


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## chrisd (May 17, 2020)

therod said:



			Re private schooling, I’ve got a golfing mate who forks out a few quid so his kids can be educated. The parents at his school seem to be applying pressure for the pupils to go back, so they can get ‘value’.
		
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I played this morning with a friend who's 2 children are in private education and he has written to their school as, despite paying a pretty penny for their schooling, they have  had no direct help from the teachers, and his wife is having to do it all


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had a bit of a low day this week after seeing a couple of experts on the tv discussing the pandemic. One who was talking about vaccines was pressed on when we might get one and, when pushed, he said his "optimistic" guess was that it's 50/50 whether there will ever be an effective vaccine.
		
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From what I have read over the last few weeks, Oxford Uni is working hard on a vaccine. I'm not saying they will succeed, but they have been doing trials on humans for some while, and the vaccine they are trialling is being produced in quantity already in case it works.
Other countries no doubt are also working on trying to get a vaccine.
iMO, the reason the PM , and others , are not being seen as optimistic is to avoid the S...tstorm that would be thrown at them , if no vaccine was forthcoming.
"You promised us a vaccine..... you lied.... etc etc."

I don't think things are too bleak- stay positive 😀


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what makes you say that?
		
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What made you say what you said ? Not any desire to be contributory to this thread.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I played this morning with a friend who's 2 children are in private education and he has written to their school as, despite paying a pretty penny for their schooling, they have  had no direct help from the teachers, and his wife is having to do it all
		
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I'd probably be asking for a refund and that's a dangerous policy by any private school.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what makes you say that?
		
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His rather extreme views


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Don't know, Bob, I think it was on either Newsnight or C4 News. But he was an expert in the field (and obviously aware of the Oxford work) but pointed out scientists have been trying for years to get a vaccine for SARS. There just isn't a scientific consensus - and I certainly prefer Prof Gilbert's assessment! But until hearing that I'd been going on the assumption that it was only a matter of time until we had a vaccine whereas now I'm thinking more about how we might just have to learn to live with it.

I see Alok Sharma today announcing a grant to the Oxford team to help them gear up for manufacturing and suggesting we might have it ready for mass vaccination in September. I think we've just got to hope for the best but be ready for the worst.
		
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Whilst there is a possibility of there not being a vaccine there will be plenty of medicines developed that will significantly mitigate the symptoms. And there already is, e.g. Aspirin to bring down temperature. Throat lozenges to ease the throat. Humidification to ease breathing. And its early days in developing the mitigations too. Things are already better than they were 2 months ago. Stay strong, we'll get there.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

therod said:



			Cheers for the insight. From a personal point of view I’ve really enjoyed the home schooling. It’s given us a structure & I’m happy to play the part of ‘teacher‘. I was determined before this, to be far more engaged in my kids eduction than my parents were in mine. This have given me a chance to step up. I am fortunate though, being furloughed.
I also know anecdotally, some of my kids peers are doing very little.
Mine are year 5 & 7, I genuinely reckon their schooling won’t suffer, as there’s no hiding place in a class of 1!!
Re private schooling, I’ve got a golfing mate who forks out a few quid so his kids can be educated. *The parents at his school seem to be applying pressure for the pupils to go back, so they can get ‘value’*.
		
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Yes, I can imagine that will be the case.  Personally I'm relaxed about it for my daughter.  I'm lucky in that I kind of know what to look for in any risk assessments the school produces and what questions to ask to find out what steps the school is taking to make the school environment as safe as possible.  And assuming I get the assurances I need I'll be happy to send her back.  But I won't be pushing them to open and get kids back until they feel they are ready.


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What made you say what you said ? Not any desire to be contributory to this thread.
		
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 it was a question for OS


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## bobmac (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Don't know, Bob, I think it was on either Newsnight or C4 News. But he was an expert in the field (and obviously aware of the Oxford work) but pointed out scientists have been trying for years to get a vaccine for SARS. There just isn't a scientific consensus - and I certainly prefer Prof Gilbert's assessment! But until hearing that I'd been going on the assumption that it was only a matter of time until we had a vaccine whereas now I'm thinking more about how we might just have to learn to live with it.

I see Alok Sharma today announcing a grant to the Oxford team to help them gear up for manufacturing and suggesting we might have it ready for mass vaccination in September. I think we've just got to hope for the best but be ready for the worst.
		
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They wouldn't be spending all that money producing millions of doses of the vaccine if they didn't think it would work.
Doctors and nurses are doing a brilliant job saving 1,000s of lives but it's the scientists who will save millions.


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## User20205 (May 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I played this morning with a friend who's 2 children are in private education and he has written to their school as, despite paying a pretty penny for their schooling, they have  had no direct help from the teachers, and his wife is having to do it all
		
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We’ve had lessons provided online, structure, materials etc. It’s been communicated via a school gateway & Microsoft teams. We have to make sure the kids are doing the work, I’ve found that the best way is to sit down with them in a pseudo classroom environment. Left to their own devices, I’m not sure it would get done! My youngest has different educational needs to my eldest, as he’s been diagnosed with dyslexia, but his school have provided the appropriate materials on top of what we already have, to give him some learning resource. Both are at state schools, albeit ones with decent ofstead results and good parent/teacher communication.

If I was fee paying, I’d expect the above as a bare minimum.


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			His rather extreme views
		
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TBH i don't really know anything about him, but there are extreme views on both sides of the div, which wouldn't make you stupid... 

just looked him up, quite an interesting guy.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had a bit of a low day this week after seeing a couple of experts on the tv discussing the pandemic. One who was talking about vaccines was pressed on when we might get one and, when pushed, he said his "optimistic" guess was that it's 50/50 whether there will ever be an effective vaccine.
		
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My wife reads too much stuff in the online papers, what is in the news, intreviews with journalists looking for a headline. She is frequently winding herself up. When she gets too bad I'll remind her of the basics that many of the scientists and health experts keep reverting back to:

Wash your hands
Don't touch your face
You are very unlikely to catch this
If you do catch it, most are likely to feel minimal symptoms 
If you are below age x, healthy, have no underlying issues, are not overweight then you are even more unlikely to have bad symptoms 
We will get through this
Don't let fear rule your life
(Okay, I added the last two in 😁)

My point is, fear is grabbing us at the moment and can affect us all. When you look at the list above, particularly when you hear the calm and matter of fact manner in which they reel this off, it is very calming and helps to peel back the fear. We all have low days, it is inevitable when we are being bombarded with negativity, but keep going back to that list, it will help 👍


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			They wouldn't be spending all that money producing millions of doses of the vaccine if they didn't think it would work.
Doctors and nurses are doing a brilliant job saving 1,000s of lives but it's the scientists who will save millions.
		
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The UK is providing an additional £84m to accelerate the search for a vaccine.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm not frightened of it at all, more concerned about the lifestyle changes etc. If it was purely a case that the risk would be mine alone I'd be out and about quite happily.
		
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Okay, I get that. I'm genuinely not worried about catching it but I am worried about work, financial implications etc. 

I was cheered up last week seeing Spaniards drinking in bars outside, the return of cafe culture. I was cheered again this morning seeing Dortmund fans watching their team indoors in a bar, drinking beer. I'm not beer obsessed, I rarely go to a pub, but these were signs of normality returning across Europe. Baby steps but it is happening and we will follow in those steps at some point.


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## DanFST (May 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was cheered up last week seeing Spaniards drinking in bars outside, the return of cafe culture. I was cheered again this morning seeing Dortmund fans watching their team indoors in a bar, drinking beer. I'm not beer obsessed, I rarely go to a pub, but these were signs of normality returning across Europe. Baby steps but it is happening and we will follow in those steps at some point.
		
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Do you have the feeling it's just not gonna happen for us? I'm not sure why I just can't get my head to believe it'll happen till autumn.


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## bobmac (May 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The UK is providing an additional £84m to accelerate *the search for a vaccine*.
		
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_"*This new money will help mass-produce the Oxford vaccine *so that if current trials are successful we have dosages to start vaccinating the UK population straight away," _

To me that would suggest they're confident  the vaccine they are testing now will work.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...k-lockdown-schools-deaths-cases-tests-latest/


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## huds1475 (May 17, 2020)

The whole vaccine thing is a moving feast. In the last few days I've read;

- We might never find a vaccine but the virus could easily just die out - some guy from WHO.
- Governrment pumping $ into vaccine mf facility - ready this time next year (not September)
- Oxford Uni Vaccine triallists aren't getting enough exposure to people carrying to give any meaningful results. Now moving to candidates in high exposure places (hospitals etc...)
- A big cause of fatalities is blood clotting, not necessarily lack of O2. Might explain why ventilators aren't turning round many critical patients. Medics genuinely believe thinning agents could prove a very effective weapon.

The last one just illustrates how much scientists, medics are learning all the time. No wonder nobody is going all in on the vaccine front. Nevertheless, I found reading the article pretty encouraging - shows that as well as treating those that can are exploring all angles to learn and hopefully defeat this (link below)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-drugs-can-help-save-covid-19-patients-lives/


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## rudebhoy (May 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Wash your hands
Don't touch your face
You are very unlikely to catch this
If you do catch it, most are likely to feel minimal symptoms
If you are below age x, healthy, have no underlying issues, are not overweight then you are even more unlikely to have bad symptoms
We will get through this
Don't let fear rule your life
		
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What tune are we meant to be singing this to? 😀


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			TBH i don't really know anything about him, but there are extreme views on both sides of the div, which wouldn't make you stupid... 

just looked him up, quite an interesting guy.
		
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It was a gringe worthy piece IMO and if Trump had made it it wouldn't have surprised me. Even the interviewer was trying to wind it up.


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## chrisd (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Could your friend not help?  

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I'm sure he could if he wasnt a GP and working all hours he can on surgery and coronavirus matters in the community


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## Lord Tyrion (May 17, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Do you have the feeling it's just not gonna happen for us? I'm not sure why I just can't get my head to believe it'll happen till autumn.
		
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I know what you mean but I think that is just our British mentality. We tend to think we are the furthest behind, worst prepared, dealing with it the worst, will be last out of this etc. It is how we are wired 😁. We are not the most positive, can-do nation.

It is hard to see right now but I keep looking at Europe and see how they are moving and know it will be us at some point. I think it must be a nightmare for the entertainment industry, pubs, cafes, restaurants etc and they will be the most difficult nut to crack effectively. 

To answer your question, I'm trying to be hopeful but it is based on blind faith and hope more than scientific knowledge 👍. 

Think of the thread we can have, post a picture of your first 'pint in a pub' 🍻😁


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## Lord Tyrion (May 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			What tune are we meant to be singing this to? 😀
		
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That could be a thread on it's own 

I started thinking Agadoo but ran out of steam by line 4 😄


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



_"*This new money will help mass-produce the Oxford vaccine *so that if current trials are successful we have dosages to start vaccinating the UK population straight away," _

To me that would suggest they're confident  the vaccine they are testing now will work.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...k-lockdown-schools-deaths-cases-tests-latest/

Click to expand...

Yes, a Subtle turn of phrase, but an important one. Also, there is a lot of trialling going on to see if some already licensed medicines can reduce the severe effects of the virus. 
Quite a bit to be optimistic about😀


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## Reemul (May 17, 2020)

I think you may be surprised at the number of people that have underlying health issues than you know about and additionally there are a lot of overweight people, i mean very overweight people and a lot of these people work, have to work and are at risk of catching it and killing them. 

We do need an option to support them, keep them safe and get everyone out and about and pushing towards removing lock down it just needs to be slow and steady not a rush and all at once.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 17, 2020)

Talking about funding and research etc, there has been a hell if a lot of money and resources in to the fight, however, I find this appeal either worrying or a scam, really not sure what to think.

It’s on the Covid-19 App that I “report” on every morning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Just listening to Lord Sumption advocating that there should be no lockdown and that everyone should be allowed to do as they wish in regard to self isolating. Seem oblivious of the fact that its not about whether he gets it, its how many die from his passing it on. What a dick!
		
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His view was interesting in that he would be happy to go to the cinema or theatre and risk catching it - and if someone else was worried about catching it at the theatre or cinema from someone asymptomatic then they shouldn't go to the theatre or cinema.


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## chrisd (May 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			His view was interesting in that he would be happy to go to the cinema or theatre and risk catching it - and if someone else was worried about catching it at the theatre or cinema from someone asymptomatic then they shouldn't go to the theatre or cinema.
		
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I'm not sure that "interesting" is the right word.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's actually part of an academy trust.  My daughter is at secondary level and is not in one of the years they are focusing on at that level so she is still being home schooled. So I do not know what private primaries are planning. Although I'd expect they would be doing the same as state schools in terms of risk assessments. However there may well be a bit more pressure on private schools to open as parents are paying what is usually a fair whack for them to educate their kids in schools.

This is in fact another area where privately educated kids, who already have advantages, may be get even more advantages.  As in general the quality of the private school home schooling set will be very high as again, parents are paying for it. So private schools want to keep the paying parents especially happy. I've done no home schooling myself as the school makes sure she has all she needs without parents needing to do anything. There is some great home schooling going on in the non-private sector, but for completely understandable reasons the quality is more variable. So on average the longer home schooling goes on for I'd say the larger the gap may be, which may well become visible in future years exam results.

As for how I feel about this then as a parent I am obviously OK with it. As a chair of governors at a non-private school I want to ensure that non-privately educated kids get the best chances in life and the best education. And that may, or may not mean going back to school as soon as possible.
		
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I think that the importance of being in school for 4 and 5 yr olds is that they generally just go with being at school - for most it is fun, they have friends there and they meet new friends.  Most little 'uns - once they get over the worry of leaving mum, dad or 'granny' at the school gate, enjoy school and that sets their mindset for when they get just a year or two older when they could be really difficult if that mindset of it being 'just what you do' has not been established and they knew there were alternatives.

So 4 and 5 yr olds at school doesn't seem to be so much 'educational' - as 'setting their mindset' to be going to school for future learning just a year or two ahead.  I can understand how important it is given that the window for establishing that mindset is really quite narrow - and children don't stop getting older.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure that "interesting" is the right word.
		
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I couldn't think of another one - I suppose I could have said 'selfish' - and that would be the best of it.  His underlying point about us all eventually having to live with the risk is however valid.  Not sure that now is the time to be exposing ourselves to the virus wholesale though...


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## ColchesterFC (May 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure that "interesting" is the right word.
		
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Selfish?

EDIT - SiLH beat me to it


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			From my personal experience of several schools I would say teachers are at best apprehensive with most being still very concerned.  Especially as logically they are being asked to go into a position where realistically in primaries they will not be able to completely social distance, and the kids definitely will not.  When at the same time the rest of the population is being asked to always socially distance. But just about all of them want to provide the best education they can for their classes so a lot of them are very torn and having to make some tough decisions. And throughout all schools now the heads are talking to the staff, going through the advice so staff are getting a lot of objective evidence.
		
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Thanks for that.

It is reassuring to hear  of information and evidence being provided to those at "the sharp end of the ship" rather than gut feelings. 

I appreciate that I am fortunate to not have to make such decisions and I certainly don't envy those who will be faced with this dilemma. 

But if they are informed it must be of some help.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Talking about funding and research etc, there has been a hell if a lot of money and resources in to the fight, however, I find this appeal either worrying or a scam, really not sure what to think.

It’s on the Covid-19 App that I “report” on every morning.
View attachment 30724

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Yeh - I saw that when I checked in with that app last night...I thought - surely not...and like you I thought - scam?'


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## bobmac (May 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			His view was interesting in that he would be happy to go to the cinema or theatre and risk catching it - and if someone else was worried about catching it at the theatre or cinema from someone asymptomatic then they shouldn't go to the theatre or cinema.
		
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Sounds a bit like the President of Brazil a few weeks ago


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I played this morning with a friend who's 2 children are in private education and he has written to their school as, despite paying a pretty penny for their schooling, they have  had no direct help from the teachers, and his wife is having to do it all
		
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We have friends with pretty similar experience.  The school has been trying to impose a ludicrous strict daily 'learn at home' regime on their youngest lad - that he is really, really struggling with and that could actually be long term damaging to him.  The parents think it's simply the private school trying to justify not giving them any 'money back' or fees reduction for next year - and not actually that much about any commitment by the school to their child's education.


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It was a gringe worthy piece IMO and if Trump had made it it wouldn't have surprised me. Even the interviewer was trying to wind it up.
		
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which article is this?  as i said didn't know anything about him TBH, just read the biog of him. though some of the usual right wing trolls appear to think i'm a member of M, i'm not and not even a member of the Labour party or voted for them in the last two GE


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## chrisd (May 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I couldn't think of another one - I suppose I could have said 'selfish' - and that would be the best of it.  His underlying point about us all eventually having to live with the risk is however valid.  Not sure that now is the time to be exposing ourselves to the virus wholesale though...
		
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Given the promising news about a vaccination, he was likely wrong about living with the risk too. He also said that in the list of pandemics from over the years that coronavirus deaths were bottom of that list, didnt it occur to him that it might be the lockdown that is the reason for that ?


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## patricks148 (May 17, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Has a serial poster we all know been out with the spray can?





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really, pretty poor underhand dig, i  suggest you read MH post in the heading about trolling and flaming, and the person liking it ... really


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			which article is this?  as i said didn't know anything about him TBH, just read the biog of him. though some of the usual right wing trolls appear to think i'm a member of M, i'm not and not even a member of the Labour party or voted for them in the last two GE
		
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It was a live interview on BBC


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## NWJocko (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is in fact another area where privately educated kids, who already have advantages, may be get even more advantages.  As in general the quality of the private school home schooling set will be very high as again, parents are paying for it. So private schools want to keep the paying parents especially happy. I've done no home schooling myself as the school makes sure she has all she needs without parents needing to do anything. There is some great home schooling going on in the non-private sector, but for completely understandable reasons the quality is more variable. So on average the longer home schooling goes on for I'd say the larger the gap may be, which may well become visible in future years exam results.

As for how I feel about this then as a parent I am obviously OK with it. As a chair of governors at a non-private school I want to ensure that non-privately educated kids get the best chances in life and the best education. And that may, or may not mean going back to school as soon as possible.
		
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Isn’t your last paragraph pretty patronising/hypocritical?

How can you be happy your kids are getting even more of an advantage than they normally do for financial reasons yet want “the best” for the great unwashed by putting them more at risk than you (may be) willing to do with your own kids!?

For someone who constantly criticises Tories you do a decent impression of one yourself.


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## Hacker Khan (May 17, 2020)

NWJocko said:



			Isn’t your last paragraph pretty patronising/hypocritical?

How can you be happy your kids are getting even more of an advantage than they normally do for financial reasons yet want “the best” for the great unwashed by putting them more at risk than you (may be) willing to do with your own kids!?

For someone who constantly criticises Tories you do a decent impression of one yourself.
		
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I am happy that my daughter is getting a good level of education at a private school and I want kids at non-private schools to get a good education as well. Hence the fact I give 100s of hours up for free to do the governance role in a non-private school. Not sure I referred to anyone as being unwashed. Or I said anywhere I am putting kids at any greater risk?  Why am I putting kids at risk?


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## NWJocko (May 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am happy that my daughter is getting a good level of education at a private school and I* want kids at non-private schools to get a good education as* well. Hence the fact I give 100s of hours up for free to do the governance role in a non-private school. Not sure I referred to anyone as being unwashed. Or I said anywhere I am putting kids at any greater risk?  Why am I putting kids at risk?
		
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Just not at as good a level as your own children and you celebrate the fact your kids are even further ahead 👍🏼

You said yourself private school kids are getting better quality home schooling than state school kids so you’re happy to consider sending them back sooner, or “as soon as possible”.  Are you clamouring for you’re private school to get you’re kids back in?

Well done on giving up time as a Governor, is that the trade off?


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I couldn't think of another one - I suppose I could have said 'selfish' - and that would be the best of it.  His underlying point about us all eventually having to live with the risk is however valid.  Not sure that now is the time to be exposing ourselves to the virus wholesale though...
		
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Should there ever be a time to be exposing ourselves to the virus wholesale?


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## clubchamp98 (May 17, 2020)

Sixty five education staff have died from Covid According to the ONS.
This includes 26 teachers.
All these while schools have only had key workers children in.
If that’s how many die with schools almost empty I dread to think what the toll will be when the kids go back.
That’s not Highly Unlikley  to me.


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sixty five education staff have died from Covid According to the ONS.
This includes 26 teachers.
All these while schools have only had key workers children in.
If that’s how many die with schools almost empty I dread to think what the toll will be when the kids go back.
That’s not Highly Unlikley  to me.
		
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That's worrying.


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## Blue in Munich (May 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Don't know, Bob, I think it was on either Newsnight or C4 News. But he was an expert in the field (and obviously aware of the Oxford work) but *pointed out scientists have been trying for years to get a vaccine for SARS. *There just isn't a scientific consensus - and I certainly prefer Prof Gilbert's assessment! But until hearing that I'd been going on the assumption that it was only a matter of time until we had a vaccine whereas now I'm thinking more about how we might just have to learn to live with it.

I see Alok Sharma today announcing a grant to the Oxford team to help them gear up for manufacturing and suggesting we might have it ready for mass vaccination in September. I think we've just got to hope for the best but be ready for the worst.
		
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Have they Karen?  There hasn't been a case reported in 16 years; given that how much effort is actually going to go into finding a vaccine to something that has possibly died out or, if it does come back will possibly have mutated rendering any vaccine ineffective?

https://www.cdc.gov/dotw/sars/index.html


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## DanFST (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sixty five education staff have died from Covid According to the ONS.
This includes 26 teachers.
All these while schools have only had key workers children in.
If that’s how many die with schools almost empty I dread to think what the toll will be when the kids go back.
That’s not Highly Unlikley  to me.
		
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Meaningless statistics. 

It doesn't show if they have been working. (the 6 lollipop ladies have for example have definitely not been working) So doesn't show what you think it does. 

Fact is the fatality rate is no different in the teaching profession to the general uk population.


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Meaningless statistics.

It doesn't show if they have been working. (the 6 lollipop ladies have for example have definitely not been working) So doesn't show what you think it does.

Fact is the fatality rate is no different in the teaching profession to the general uk population.
		
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H'mm! While I agree that there's a good deal of irrelevance in the figures CC quoted (65 out of 35k is almost 'noise level'), the fact that Teachers and kids are being 'thrown together', albeit with SD (though I'm dubious about how well that will work outside the classroom), will certainly increase the chance of transmission of the virus via the school setting. And, for me, the major 'risk' is not that pupils will catch it within the school, but that they will transmit it - either within or outwith the school environment (especially at home)  with consequent further spread.


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## yandabrown (May 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			ITV - "can you guarantee the R rate won't increase"...how do these morons get, and keep, their jobs?
		
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I saw this today and was reminded of this discussion:


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! While I agree that there's a good deal of irrelevance in the figures CC quoted (65 out of 35k is almost 'noise level'), the fact that Teachers and kids are being 'thrown together', albeit with SD (though I'm dubious about how well that will work outside the classroom), will certainly increase the chance of transmission of the virus via the school setting. And, for me, the major 'risk' is not that pupils will catch it within the school, but that they will transmit it - either within or outwith the school environment (especially at home)  with consequent further spread.
		
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Exactly.  Why are the proponents of return to school banging on about "kids don't give other kids the virus"?
I would suggest they do, but being a child it's likely taking no effect whatsoever. Thus, the evidence that children don't pass it on. They say!

But a child with the virus all over them and their belongings returning to Mum Dad et al will pass it on there.
And if "there" contains a vulnerable citizen, then?
Apart from the obvious result , as well, which would be Mum and Dad et al would spread it somewhat until symptoms appear in them.


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## Hacker Khan (May 18, 2020)

NWJocko said:



			Just not at as good a level as your own children and you celebrate the fact your kids are even further ahead 👍🏼

You said yourself private school kids are getting better quality home schooling than state school kids *so you’re happy to consider sending them back sooner, or “as soon as possible”.*  Are you clamouring for you’re private school to get you’re kids back in?

Well done on giving up time as a Governor, is that the trade off?
		
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Not sure where I started celebrating things. I said that '_And that may, *or may not* mean going back to school as soon as possible_.'  If you are going to quote me then do it in context, nowhere did I say that they should be sent back as soon as possible. Not going back may well be the best policy based on risk assessments and the particular circumstances of the school, pupils and parents.

As for clamouring for private schools to go back I stated with regards to my daughter '_And assuming I get the assurances I need I'll be happy to send her back. But I won't be pushing them to open and get kids back until they feel they are ready.  '_Please do not start twisting my words and misquoting me to try and make a point.

I've tried to be as honest as possible and put a balanced perspective on this from a position of some knowledge on the background of advice being given by the government and what is going on in schools.  But this subject should not be politicised. Just because the Tories have said something then if you vote Tory you should not be blindly following the advice if it is not be in the best interests of your family.  Same with anything Labour comes out with if yo are a labour voter.  Parents need to make their own minds up and often the head of the school will be best person to give some solid sensible advice.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Meaningless statistics.

It doesn't show if they have been working. (the 6 lollipop ladies have for example have definitely not been working) So doesn't show what you think it does.

Fact is the fatality rate is no different in the teaching profession to the general uk population.
		
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Yes stats can show anything .
So it can show that the staff could have given the virus to the kids to take home.
They didn’t because they weren’t in school .
But that will change if they go back.
They use science when it suits them but havnt proved kids can’t pass it on.


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## bobmac (May 18, 2020)

Why cant the kids have their summer holidays now and go to school in July and August?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I saw this today and was reminded of this discussion:
View attachment 30747

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The flaw in that story is that at the start of WW2 Parliament got shot of an unpopular disorganised ineffective leader and replaced him with an effective leader who lead a united national government.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The flaw in that story is that at the start of WW2 Parliament got shot of an unpopular disorganised ineffective leader and replaced him with an effective leader who lead a united national government.

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We did that last year - it's just a few who still ignore it!


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## funkycoldmedina (May 18, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I saw this today and was reminded of this discussion:
View attachment 30747

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It's not really a discussion is it? it's just some cack made up by a right wing activist to push the buttons of their followers


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The flaw in that story is that at the start of WW2 Parliament got shot of an unpopular disorganised ineffective leader and replaced him with an effective leader who lead a united national government.

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Yes, and how much would he have put up with the "gotcha" journos and snipers that this government are having to put up with.?
It was a united government because they, and the people all realised that they were facing a common threat, and so Party politics was forgotten for the duration.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, and how much would he have put up with the "gotcha" journos and snipers that this government are having to put up with.?
It was a united government because they, and the people all realised that they were facing a common threat, and so Party politics was forgotten for the duration.
		
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It was 80 years ago ffs! You can’t compare the 2 and is an insult to ALL those who lived during that period and made the ultimate sacrifice regardless of position, wealth, social standing and political allegiance.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Why cant the kids have their summer holidays now and go to school in July and August?
		
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I was chatting to my mum yesterday, retired teacher of 35 years, and she raised this point. It is an interesting suggestion, it is not as if everyone is going on holiday this summer is it? I'm sure it would be unpopular in some circles but a bit of left field thinking is needed right now. It is certainly worth looking at and if it is and then dismissed then fair enough.


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## Kellfire (May 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, and how much would he have put up with the "gotcha" journos and snipers that this government are having to put up with.?
It was a united government because they, and the people all realised that they were facing a common threat, and so Party politics was forgotten for the duration.
		
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You must see different journalists than I do because the bunch I see refuse to ask difficult questions time after time and are giving the government basically a free ride without the kind of scrutiny the press should be issuing.


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## Kellfire (May 18, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I saw this today and was reminded of this discussion:
View attachment 30747

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And women should stay at home and to hell with foreigners, too?

Why does every hardship in this country end up being equated to the most brutal war the world has ever seen, almost as if we look back at that time with nostalgia and want a return to that sort of mindset.


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## DanFST (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			They use science when it suits them but havnt proved kids can’t pass it on.
		
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Has anyone apart from some crap journalist actually said that....

What's your ideal situation? When would kids go back? I'm assuming you think we should be in total lock down still? Do you think key workers should be at work?


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## Imurg (May 18, 2020)

7 French schools that reopened last week have closed as a child has tested positive......

Another few weeks isnt going to be of more detriment to a kids education, especially with end of year so close.


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			...But this subject should not be politicised. Just because the Tories have said something then if you vote Tory you should not be blindly following the advice if it is not be in the best interests of your family.  Same with anything Labour comes out with if yo are a labour voter. ...
		
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Politicisation of this is inevitable - and, to me, demonstrates the BENEFITS of our system (over the likes of US's). HM Opposition has been fairly quiet - supportive even, but HAS pointed out some of (generally those deemed important) the glitches that have, inevitably imo, happened. Parliament is a very direct route to challenge Cabinet decisions - as opposed to the protracted mechanism in US where dictatorial Presidential decrees/actions (including revenge!) take eons to be challenged!

To me, it's commentators - the Press, this Forum etc, who have demonstrated the most 'politicisation' in UK. I'm sure I could easily provide a list of obvious Tory supporting members here who have 'condemned' every criticism of 'The Government' and, though with a bit more effort necessary, another (smaller) one of those anti-Tories who, similarly, see _only_ the negatives of government action. As for 'The Press'...From what I've seen of the 'populuat' onws, Torygraph, DM, Sun continue their Tory=Great;Labour=Horrible approach, Grauniad it's marginal-somewhat Left wing style (exaggerated/condemned by Tory supporters imo) and The Times somewhere between (I read it for the 1st time in a while a few days ago but I might become a regular as either it seemed quite 'balanced', in spite of its owner, or I have moved (further?) toward the right!). 

I certainly agree that Heads are the best source of info about action taken by the school and/but believe it's up to each family to decide whether the level of 'safety' provided is sufficient for their specific needs - which may vary widely!


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, and how much would he have put up with the "gotcha" journos and snipers that this government are having to put up with.?
It was a united government because they, and the people all realised that they were facing a common threat, and so Party politics was forgotten for the duration.
		
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Well, as well as having been a Journo himself, he did have the Defense of the Realm Act to use to bully the Press. He did face criticism and did retaliate, but that sort of thing has been 'forgotten' following his success!
And it wasn't, primarily, Churchill's decision to 'form a coalition', rather the last act of a resigning Chamberlain - though he did continue with the idea when handed PM-ship (initially with only a 5 member Cabinet!).


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It was 80 years ago ffs! You can’t compare the 2 and is an insult to ALL those who lived during that period and made the ultimate sacrifice regardless of position, wealth, social standing and political allegiance.
		
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Rubbish!   I am commenting on attitudes and the differences between then and now. Some here are more interested in knocking the government than in seeing that the Country is facing a crisis and that the motives of this government, as I would expect at this time, are not in question. 
Or are you so politically motivated that you want to allege they are, as some are apparently  doing.?


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Politicisation of this is inevitable - and, to me, demonstrates the BENEFITS of our system (over the likes of US's). HM Opposition has been fairly quiet - supportive even, but HAS pointed out some of (generally those deemed important) the glitches that have, inevitably imo, happened. Parliament is a very direct route to challenge Cabinet decisions - as opposed to the protracted mechanism in US where dictatorial Presidential decrees/actions (including revenge!) take eons to be challenged!

To me, it's commentators - the Press, this Forum etc, who have demonstrated the most 'politicisation' in UK. *I'm sure I could easily provide a list of obvious Tory supporting members here who have 'condemned' every criticism of 'The Government' and, though with a bit more effort necessary, another (smaller) one of those anti-Tories who, similarly, see only the negatives of government action.* As for 'The Press'...From what I've seen of the 'populuat' onws, Torygraph, DM, Sun continue their Tory=Great;Labour=Horrible approach, Grauniad it's marginal-somewhat Left wing style (exaggerated/condemned by Tory supporters imo) and The Times somewhere between (I read it for the 1st time in a while a few days ago but I might become a regular as either it seemed quite 'balanced', in spite of its owner, or I have moved (further?) toward the right!).

I certainly agree that Heads are the best source of info about action taken by the school and/but believe it's up to each family to decide whether the level of 'safety' provided is sufficient for their specific needs - which may vary widely!
		
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I'd be interested to see that, would make fun reading and seeing if it then matches the posters actual political allegiance 🤔


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 18, 2020)

Would have to disagree with you on The Grauniad as I find its consistent anti-Tory stance as irritating as The Mail 's blind loyalty.

In fact my wife and I read both online on the basis that somewhere between the two hopefully lies the truth.

Despite Murdoch's ownership we find The Times adopts a pretty balanced editorial approach and indeed has never been an unquestioning supporter of any political party.


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## DanFST (May 18, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Would have to disagree with you on The Grauniad as I find its consistent anti-Tory stance as irritating as The Mail 's blind loyalty.
		
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Anti anything is annoying. According the vocal minority you have to be 100% in on something nowadays. God forbid you agree with some parts of x and some parts of y.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Rubbish!   I am commenting on attitudes and the differences between then and now. Some here are more interested in knocking the government than in seeing that the Country is facing a crisis and that the motives of this government, as I would expect at this time, are not in question.
Or are you so politically motivated that you want to allege they are, as some are apparently  doing.?
		
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It was a different time, a different social culture, the world was a different place and they had just got through the WW1 just over 20 years previously but you’re comparing the journalists behaviour.

You need to have a read about history and the problems Churchill faced, it really wasn’t everybody growing their own vegetables and singing “we’ll meet again”.

The Pandemic and WW2 are in no way, shape or form comparable.


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			7 French schools that reopened last week have closed as a child has tested positive......

Another few weeks isnt going to be of more detriment to a kids education, especially with end of year so close.
		
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Speaking to a teacher yesterday and there Could potentially be a lot of kids having to repeat a year if they don’t get back to school soon - the kids have already had 8 weeks which is more than the summer holiday so by the time middle of June comes around they will be 3 months without proper schooling. 

These young kids are our future and whilst the virus is still a threat schools need to find a way to get back to educating them - if kids go all the way through until September without schooling them it’s going to have a detrimental affect on futures and higher education. 

People at higher risks are going back to work , shopping , sports , etc - whilst the economy needs to start moving forward so does education.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Rubbish!   I am commenting on attitudes and the differences between then and now. Some here are more interested in knocking the government than in seeing that the Country is facing a crisis and that the motives of this government, as I would expect at this time, are not in question.
Or are you so politically motivated that you want to allege they are, as some are apparently  doing.?
		
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But how do you know the differences between then and now, assuming that you are not over the age of 90.
I am pretty certain that in the war years 'attitudes' were probably not a lot different than they are right now.
Just imagine yourself  stuck in a long food ration queue in 1940 at the butchers, and then the bakers, and then the dairy etc. I bet there was a fair amount of moaning going on from the 'plucky Brits'. But the rich could short circuit the queues and rations by buying on the black market.
Out of interest I checked I was 6 years old when meat rationing ended in July 1954.
NINE years after the war had ended.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Has anyone apart from some crap journalist actually said that....

What's your ideal situation? When would kids go back? I'm assuming you think we should be in total lock down still? Do you think key workers should be at work?
		
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I think the older children will be ok ,but the primary kids it just dosnt make sense.
My daughter is a primary teacher, my wife is shielding that’s a worry for us.
She hadn’t seen her boyfriend for eight weeks until last Monday.
She can’t meet more than one friend in the park.
But is expected to have up to 15 kids in a class.
She has been setting work everyday for her class but only 40% have bothered to do any.
That’s probably down to lazy parents as they all have the means ( internet access) to do the work she has set.

You should not assume what I am thinking , lockdown needs to lift SAFELY sending 5yr olds to school is not safe imo.
Other opinions are available that’s fine.


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think the older children will be ok ,but the primary kids it just dosnt make sense.
My daughter is a primary teacher, my wife is shielding that’s a worry for us.
She hadn’t seen her boyfriend for eight weeks until last Monday.
She can’t meet more than one friend in the park.
But is expected to have up to 15 kids in a class.
She has been setting work everyday for her class but only 40% have bothered to do any.
*That’s probably down to lazy parents as they all have the means ( internet access) to do the work she has set.*

You should not assume what I am thinking , lockdown needs to lift SAFELY sending 5yr olds to school is not safe imo.
Other opinions are available that’s fine.
		
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Or maybe in a lot of cases it could be that the parents are having to work from home as well as trying to home school like both myself and my wife and our son. I wouldn’t be so judgemental if I was you 

Have you provided the scientific proof that shows that it’s not safe to send a 5 year old into Primary School ?


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'd be interested to see that, would make fun reading and seeing if it then matches the posters actual political allegiance 🤔
		
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Might insult a few though.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Might insult a few though.
		
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Bring it on I say I'd happily see what people think I am. Be more entertainment  than we've had on here in ages..


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## DanFST (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



*That’s probably down to lazy parents as they all have the means ( internet access) to do the work she has set.*

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So we should leave these kids with "lazy" parents until a vaccine might appear? There are a large chunk of kids that are much safer at school.




Wolf said:



			Bring it on I say I'd happily see what people think I am. Be more entrainment than we've had on here in ages..
		
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You must've missed the cycling thread!


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It was a different time, a different social culture, the world was a different place and they had just got through the WW1 just over 20 years previously but you’re comparing the journalists behaviour.

You need to have a read about history and the problems Churchill faced, it really wasn’t everybody growing their own vegetables and singing “we’ll meet again”.

The Pandemic and WW2 are in no way, shape or form comparable.
		
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Absolutely agree, different times, different mindsets and totally different scenarios where everyone knew who the common enemy was that was actively bombing homes. 

I really wish people would stop comparing Covid-19 to wars.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			So we should leave these kids with "lazy" parents until a vaccine might appear? There are a large chunk of kids that are much safer at school.




*You must've missed the cycling thread*!
		
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Didnt miss it, simply didn't bother viewing it even once because it was obvious what the answers and petty squabbling would be.


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## bobmac (May 18, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Have you provided the scientific proof that shows that it’s not safe to send a 5 year old into Primary School ?
		
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I think the burden of proof is on the Govt to prove it is safe


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think the burden of proof is on the Govt to prove it is safe
		
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So if the Govt make a decision to reopen schools it will be done on the back of the evidence provided to them  and we should then trust that yes ?


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Or maybe in a lot of cases it could be that the parents are having to work from home as well as trying to home school like both myself and my wife and our son. I wouldn’t be so judgemental if I was you

Have you provided the scientific proof that shows that it’s not safe to send a 5 year old into Primary School ?
		
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Kids come to school stinking of weed , not been fed ,dirty clothes.
Most of the parents are not working that’s a fact .
The ones who are working are the 40% who do the work with the kids.
It’s my opinion it’s not safe I quite clearly said that .
But the science according to Mr Gove went from Safe to Unlikley in one sentence.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			So we should leave these kids with "lazy" parents until a vaccine might appear? There are a large chunk of kids that are much safer at school.




You must've missed the cycling thread!
		
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Yes the kids will be safer !
But the Staff won’t, you can’t teach a class in full PPE.


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## drdel (May 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think the burden of proof is on the Govt to prove it is safe
		
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But there is no proof that will satisfy everyone. At the end of the day scientific advice is given and an informed judgement is made. 

Our democracy is no better and no worse than other countries. The decision is what's thought to best for the majority and that will unfortunately be bad for some. 

Hopefully the majority will keep to the science based advice but there is a tendency for the loudest voices to drown out common sense.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think the burden of proof is on the Govt to prove it is safe
		
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I really can’t belive how many people are pushing for their children to go back into a school classroom that hasn’t been proved or disproved that it’s safe for them.
The French have proved that it probably isn’t.


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes the kids will be safer !
But the Staff won’t, you can’t teach a class in full PPE.
		
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Have you seen the figures of the kids that are being affected by the virus and you want them to stay at home until a vaccine is available which could be over a year !!! 

Are you home schooling ?


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			But there is no proof that will satisfy everyone. At the end of the day scientific advice is given and an informed judgement is made.

Our democracy is no better and no worse than other countries. The decision is what's thought to best for the majority and that will unfortunately be bad for some.

Hopefully the majority will keep to the science based advice but there is a tendency for the loudest voices to drown out common sense.
		
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Science does get things horribly wrong sometimes though , that’s why they experiment before they find answers.
Blindly following the science without question would be wrong .
But all workers inc teachers / head teachers have a veto on safety grounds , I am wondering how many will use it.
“You are your own safety officer”  was drummed into us over 40yrs of work.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Have you seen the figures of the kids that are being affected by the virus and you want them to stay at home until a vaccine is available which could be over a year !!!

Are you home schooling ?
		
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My daughter is a primary school teacher .
I don’t think there is much I can teach her.
I havnt mentioned a vaccine!
If it’s not safe does it matter how long it takes?
Would you send your children into any other situation if you know it might not be safe and could potentially kill them.?


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## Hacker Khan (May 18, 2020)

Interesting report (from a relatively neutral research group I think) on how pupils are learning or not during the lockdown. And before I get accused of saying we should send kids in to school no mater what the risks, this is copied without any particular bias or position to support, and in my opinion only one side of the story as it relates to educational impact and not the safeguarding of pupils and staff in school.  Which is just as important. https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications...zmR4vp4-NsP5t6d4SjNrlYRKO4OsjdQxEiC7boYcq9v2w


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter is a primary school teacher .
I don’t think there is much I can teach her.
I havnt mentioned a vaccine!
If it’s not safe does it matter how long it takes?
Would you send your children into any other situation if you know it might not be safe and could potentially kill them.?
		
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You can never guarantee anything is 100% - every situation that happens in life has danger , right now my child will be going back on 1st June into nursery , I have no issues with doing that because I believe the facility will do their very best to keep the children as safe as possible.

You can’t wrap up everyone in bubblewrap - this virus unfortunately has clearly affected one demographic within our population and it has taken the lives of 8 children below the age of 18 who had no other serious medical issues. 

I suspect they are more at risk of getting run over right now.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2020)

Maybees worth remembering the scientists thought it was safe for British troops to observe atomic bomb tests.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 18, 2020)

This discussion seems very similar to those that follow terrorist attacks when some people intimate that they will not expose themselves to future risk until there is  an assurance of their safety. 

But what is safety? 

Certainly it can never be 100% guaranteed whether we are talking about terrorism or viruses.

Ultimately individuals must make their own choices on the level of risk they are prepared to accept. 

This should be an informed choice based upon all the available information and not just upon gut feelings. 

Having made their choice they should be free to act upon it accordingly. 

But do not ask the Government or any other authority for an absolute assurance of safety because it cannot be given.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Maybees worth remembering the scientists thought it was safe for British troops to observe atomic bomb tests.
		
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Please can we stop with comparing Covid-19 in any form to wars, nuclear weapons or any plight that has involved the armed services. Its not remotely similar, relevant nor is it even within the same area of science. Things have moved on and this should be looked at in its own right.

BTW this is not a dig at you DfT so many people are making these comparisons with no real understanding of wars other than what history tells them, much like the above poster liking it to terrorism please let's not do that it's nothing alike and should be treated as the pandemic it is not wars, terrorism or anything else👍🏻


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Maybees worth remembering the scientists thought it was safe for British troops to observe atomic bomb tests.
		
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On what planet is that some sort of relevance ? 

Seriously - why are people always try to compare this situation with something that happened in history , we have never been in this situation before with the current way we live our lives 

World War were different 
Spanish Flu was different 
The Plague was different


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Please can we stop with comparing Covid-19 in any form to wars, nuclear weapons or any plight that has involved the armed services. Its not remotely similar, relevant nor is it even within the same area of science. Things have moved on and this should be looked at in its own right.

BTW this is not a dig at you DfT so many people are making these comparisons with no real understanding of wars other than what history tells them 👍🏻
		
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Won’t be long until those who have never served come along and tell us bringing back National Service will sort all our problems out.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

PaulS said:



			You can never guarantee anything is 100% - every situation that happens in life has danger , right now my child will be going back on 1st June into nursery , I have no issues with doing that because I believe the facility will do their very best to keep the children as safe as possible.

You can’t wrap up everyone in bubblewrap - this virus unfortunately has clearly affected one demographic within our population and it has taken the lives of 8 children below the age of 18 who had no other serious medical issues.

I suspect they are more at risk of getting run over right now.
		
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My wife is 64 and has a suppressed immune system.
My daughter is a primary school Sen teacher.
If she brings the virus home I could lose my wife or my own life.
So this sort of sets my opinion.
100% safe you are correct.
But the fact that France is shutting schools again after the infection of a pupil seems to me that the science might not be all it’s made out to be.
Obviously people’s circumstances dictate their thoughts, and I would not criticise anyone who takes a different path to me.
I just don’t think putting 5/6 yr olds back in school is the right call atm.

Given the rise in traffic I think your prob right.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It was a different time, a different social culture, the world was a different place and they had just got through the WW1 just over 20 years previously but you’re comparing the journalists behaviour.

You need to have a read about history and the problems Churchill faced, it really wasn’t everybody growing their own vegetables and singing “we’ll meet again”.

The Pandemic and WW2 are in no way, shape or form comparable.
		
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I don't need to have the likes of you to tell me to read history. I know quite a bit of the problems that Churchill faced, and if you think of one or two in particular, had the Press been at him like these gotcha ones are now, and been answered like you seem to want them to be ( details all up front), I doubt things would have turned out the same .
As for comparing the two scenarios. I'm not saying they are identical, or similar in many respect ; but they are in one or two (important )ones.
They are both a national crisis, they are both a threat to the Country's citizens, and they both need to be dealt with on that basis. By the authorities who should lay aside Party politics.
And if you cannot see that, then you are being disingenuously thick.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Won’t be long until those who have never served come along and tell us bringing back National Service will sort all our problems out.

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Already had that from one of my moron neighbours.


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My wife is 64 and has a suppressed immune system.
My daughter is a primary school Sen teacher.
If she brings the virus home I could lose my wife or my own life.
So this sort of sets my opinion.
100% safe you are correct.
But the fact that France is shutting schools again after the death of a pupil seems to me that the science might not be all it’s made out to be.
Obviously people’s circumstances dictate their thoughts, and I would not criticise anyone who takes a different path to me.
I just don’t think putting 5/6 yr olds back in school is the right call atm.

Given the rise in traffic I think your prob right.
		
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Death of a pupil ? Is that Chinese whispers.

https://www.chardandilminsternews.c...ovid-19-linked-french-schools-days-reopening/

The schools were someone has found to have Covid are temp closing but I can’t find any report of a pupil dying because of going back to school ?

As for your wife and daughter I’m sorry but the schools can’t stay shut on the basis of individual issues - that will be down to personal protection from your daughter. The virus is going to around for a long time with no vaccine really in sight


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I don't need to have the likes of you to tell me to read history. I know quite a bit of the problems that Churchill faced, and if you think of one or two in particular, had the Press been at him like these gotcha ones are now, and been answered like you seem to want them to be ( details all up front), I doubt things would have turned out the same .
As for comparing the two scenarios. I'm not saying they are identical, or similar in many respect ; but they are in one or two (important )ones.
They are both a national crisis, they are both a threat to the Country's citizens, and they both need to be dealt with on that basis. By the authorities who should lay aside Party politics.
And if you cannot see that, then you are being disingenuously thick.
		
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Let’s get something straight, not once have I commented in support of the press, in fact I have only condemned their behaviour and their questioning of the Government, you are playing the poster!!

You cannot compare the media today with the media of 80 years ago, times have changed, move on.

If you believe this invisible threat is anyway similar to a War between people then it is not me who is being disingenously thick and you are proving once again that with age doesn’t come wisdom and you are of an age were you believe you are correct in everything you say.


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## DanFST (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My wife is 64 and has a suppressed immune system.
My daughter is a primary school Sen teacher.
If she brings the virus home I could lose my wife or my own life.
So this sort of sets my opinion.
		
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That sucks, sorry you guys are in that situation. 

I'm not sure policy can be set on individual circumstances as callous as that sounds. However that needs to be addressed, those sharing a house with an "at risk" should not be made to go back to work whatever field.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Please can we stop with comparing Covid-19 in any form to wars, nuclear weapons or any plight that has involved the armed services. Its not remotely similar, relevant nor is it even within the same area of science. Things have moved on and this should be looked at in its own right.

BTW this is not a dig at you DfT so many people are making these comparisons with no real understanding of wars other than what history tells them, much like the above poster liking it to terrorism please let's not do that it's nothing alike and should be treated as the pandemic it is not wars, terrorism or anything else👍🏻
		
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You really should learn to read posts properly before commenting.

I have, at no stage, likened dealing with the virus to dealing with terrorism

What I have said is that there is no such thing as 100% safety,  be that from terrorist attacks or a pandemic.

There is a level of acceptable risk which it is for the individual to decide.

Hope that is clear enough.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I don't need to have the likes of you to tell me to read history. I know quite a bit of the problems that Churchill faced, and if you think of one or two in particular, had the Press been at him like these gotcha ones are now, and been answered like you seem to want them to be ( details all up front), I doubt things would have turned out the same .
As for comparing the two scenarios. I'm not saying they are identical, or similar in many respect ; but they are in one or two (important )ones.
*They are both a national crisis, they are both a threat to the Country's citizens*, and they both need to be dealt with on that basis. By the authorities who should lay aside Party politics.
And if you cannot see that, then you are being disingenuously thick.
		
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That's the only aspect in which war is similar. That is where similarities end period.

A war is fought against a known enemy, a virus is an unknown entity that cannot be seen nor can it be physically fought by an army, air force or Navy. Wars are easier to unite politics on especially if they're being fought on a home front.

This virus is nothing like a war it can't be conquered in the same way, this is something that requires not brute military force, tactics and solving by the taking of lives and territory, this is something that scientists and virologists will sit in a lab working through to create vaccine or by government giving the correct information to its people to help reduce spread to prevent any further loss of life. 

As for party politics they don't disappear in war either but are conveniently forgotten once victory has been assured and pats on the back occur. 

As for calling a poster disingenuously thick perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes or profession. Because trust me I can guarantee the plight with this virus is nothing like being boots on the ground fighting a war.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You really should learn to read posts properly before commenting.

I have, at no stage, linked dealing with the virus to dealing with terrorism

What I have said is that there is no such thing as 100% safety,  be that from terrorist attacks or a pandemic.

There is a level of acceptable risk which it is for the individual to decide.

Hope that is clear enough.
		
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I did read it... And comparing safety risks of terrorism to a viral pandemic was equally as poor as comparison to war.

Risk assessment against those is a completely different thing. If you feel valid in your post fair enough, but on an open forum don't be surprised if someone disagrees with you as is my prerogative as someone with experiences of terrorism threats👍🏻

The only caveat I'd add is you are correct in that if people don't feel safe they can remove themselves from areas  they may feel are a threat to their health.


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2020)

The WHO has issued an advisory notice globally about increased incidences of Kawasaki Disease. On testing children with the disease it has been found that the child has had Coronavirus.

Clinicians and scientists are still finding out things about Covid-19. I'll be honest, I'm not comfortable with kids going back to school yet. If others feel differently, fine. Their children, their choice.


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Already had that from one of my moron neighbours.
		
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A bit of National Service would sort him out.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A bit of National Service would sort him out.
		
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He plays CoD do probably feels like he's a war machine and could handle it.. Bit like the muppets that say they could pull a trigger without having a clue what that would really feel like 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			He plays CoD do probably feels like he's a war machine and could handle it.. Bit like the muppets that say they could pull a trigger without having a clue what that would really feel like 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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I wouldnt know, they didnt trust Matelots with rifles 😕


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I wouldnt know, they didnt trust Matelots with rifles 😕
		
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That's why you had us lot to look after you, you just needed to ferry us to the danger areas whilst you slept soundly in a bed with blankets and hot food 😂


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I did read it... And comparing safety risks of terrorism to a viral pandemic was equally as poor as comparison to war.

Risk assessment against those is a completely different thing. If you feel valid in your post fair enough, but on an open forum don't be surprised if someone disagrees with you as is my prerogative as someone with experiences of terrorism threats👍🏻

The only caveat I'd add is you are correct in that if people don't feel safe they can remove themselves from areas  they may feel are a threat to their health.
		
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So tell me where the difference is between those who said they wouldn't fly again after 9/11 and those now saying that they cannot return to anything like normal life.

In both cases the future risk is unknown. 

In fact there is a similarity in that with terrorism the authorities have to get it right 100% of the time to assure the public of absolute safety. 

As a former serving member of HM Forces I am sure that you are aware that cannot be guaranteed. 

Yet, in the main and even in times of high alert/risk, we go about our normal routine


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## drdel (May 18, 2020)

Unfortunately medical scientists are people: there will be successes and failures because unlike this Forum they are fallible.

We now a lot about Sepsis, how to prevent and treat it but around 44,000 die each year other things are also beyond our current knowledge. Everyday we make judgement calls of money versus the health of the majority

 This particular version of Covid is new and novel and most of the research has a time lag and gestation time. This public and media's impatience does not mean the scientists and the associated advice is wrong or should be ignored.

This virus is something society will need to adapt around and knee jerk reactions will not help.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It’s purely anecdotal so make if it what you will but the two people we know who caught the virus got it via their kids who got it at school.
		
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That is not a chain of events that you can guarantee. It fits a narrative but it does not mean all of those pieces came together that way. They may have done but equally they may not.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So tell me where the difference is between those who said they wouldn't fly again after 9/11 and those now saying that they cannot return to anything like normal life.

In both cases the future risk is unknown.

In fact there is a similarity in that with terrorism the authorities have to get it right 100% of the time to assure the public of absolute safety.

As a former serving member of HM Forces I am sure that you are aware that cannot be guaranteed.

Yet, in the main and even in times of high alert/risk, we go about our normal routine
		
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Well depsite the obvious tightening of security checks put in place at every airport following 9/11 which everyone ia still massively subject to everytime they walk into which is something that helps people fears be allayed being a big change compared to the fact Covid-19 is something that can't be seen, or smelt and may have a large factor in difference of risk assessment especially when the largest element of this current risk assessment is our PM telling us to "be alert" how do you stay alert to a virus you can't see, touch or smell, how do you manage to be alert to that or dodge that .

So I'd suggest choosing the terrorism air travel vs virus risk was a poor comparison.

Clearly we don't agree so let's move on  shall we.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I have no skin in this particular game so just relaying what happened. The kids got it then the parents got it. The only question would be whether the kids got it in school or not but that seems somewhat academic.... if you'll pardon the pun! 

Click to expand...

Me either to be honest, my kids have both left school now. Trying to make links when they may have caught it from a range of sources can add to the fear surrounding the return to school issue though.


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## patricks148 (May 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It's not really a discussion is it? it's just some cack made up by a right wing activist to push the buttons of their followers
		
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and they will lap it up


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## drdel (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Well depsite the obvious tightening of security checks put in place at every airport following 9/11 which everyone ia still massively subject to everytime they walk into which is something that helps people fears be allayed being a big change compared to the fact Covid-19 is something that can't be seen, or smelt and may have a large factor in difference of risk assessment especially when the largest element of this current risk assessment is our PM telling us to "be alert" how do you stay alert to a virus you can't see, touch or smell, how do you manage to be alert to that or dodge that .

So I'd suggest choosing the terrorism air travel vs virus risk was a poor comparison.

Clearly we don't agree so let's move on  shall we.
		
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In terms of military strategy and operations I accept the differences you cite. However for the public terrorism is an invisible threat and people are asked to be alert. Security and armed police at airports reinforce the message of the covert potential. A pandemic has similarities In terms of the awareness and controlling policies that the public are asked to adopt.

I agree it is a long way from being In a war zone or on terrorist patrol but from a layperson's perspective being alert to the risk and dangers terrorism and pandemic are, IMO, not miles apart.


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			In terms of military strategy and operations I accept the differences you cite. However for the public terrorism is an invisible threat and people are asked to be alert. Security and armed police at airports reinforce the message of the covert potential. A pandemic has similarities In terms of the awareness and controlling policies that the public are asked to adopt.

I agree it is a long way from being In a war zone or on terrorist patrol but from a layperson's perspective being alert to the risk and dangers terrorism and pandemic are, IMO, not miles apart.
		
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Thank you. I was trying to put it in a way that wouldn't upset the ex-service people amongst us. The airport analogy, which was dismissed is fairly accurate. You can't "smell or see" a terrorist. Whilst we should defer in some things to those with more experience, sometimes they should try to walk in our shoes too to understand our perspective.


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Would have to disagree with you on The Grauniad as I find its consistent anti-Tory stance as irritating as The Mail 's blind loyalty.
...
		
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My 'justification' for forgiving Grauniad somewhat - as opposed to detesting DM's blind loyalty - is that, while it's definitely left of centre (and I'm probably a little that way too in some ways but right of centre in others), its criticism of Tories is generally based on facts/legitimate 'criticism', so 'better' journalism than the slavish imo(though perhaps too often ONLY that side of the story). Wifey 2 was a DM devotee - and a Deputy Head Teacher - so plenty of potential for 'interesting' discussions - or, more often, 'Yes Dear' then silence!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 18, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			My 'justification' for forgiving Grauniad somewhat - as opposed to detesting DM's blind loyalty - is that, while it's definitely left of centre (and I'm probably a little that way too in some ways but right of centre in others), its criticism of Tories is generally based on facts/legitimate 'criticism', so 'better' journalism than the slavish imo(though perhaps too often ONLY that side of the story). Wifey 2 was a DM devotee - and a Deputy Head Teacher - so plenty of potential for 'interesting' discussions - or, more often, 'Yes Dear' then silence!
		
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Personally find it hard to take seriously any publication that gives space to either Owen Jones or Polly Toynbee.

Each seem only interested in twisting any situation to find a way to blame the Tories.

Mind you I feel equally as strongly about the likes of Littlejohn and Hitchens.

And as for that odious woman Hopkins! Words fail me, and that doesn't often happen.


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That's why you had us lot to look after you, you just needed to ferry us to the danger areas whilst you slept soundly in a bed with blankets and hot food 😂
		
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But you felt cosy and reassured flying in the chopper I had maintained 😉


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Thank you. I was trying to put it in a way that wouldn't upset the ex-service people amongst us. The airport analogy, which was dismissed is fairly accurate. You can't "smell or see" a terrorist. Whilst we should defer in some things to those with more experience, sometimes they should try to walk in our shoes too to understand our perspective.
		
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It’s not a case of walking in anyone’s shoes, each member of a civilised society contributes in their own way, it’s the ridiculous analogies and sentiments of comparing it to WW2 that annoy me.

I’m sure someone could put up an argument to compare the risk and being alert to any danger in life to Covid-19, wearing Uniform or not we are all at risk from terrorism and have all experienced it, but it’s the comparing it to the blitz and rationing and sitting in Anderson Shelters etc is plain daft.

What next? Compare NHS staff to WW1 Soldiers and them being sent over the top to face certain death.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2020)

Been listening to Matt Hancock statement in HoC and on contact tracing I am confused.

How many contact tracers have been employed?  At the start of his statement I am sure he said 22,000 had been employed - then he said 8500 contact tracers and, I think, 13,500 call handlers.  I don’t recall the exact total and split but the 8500 contact tracers was definite. Then later under questioning he said the government had employed 22,000 contact tracers.

Now a call handler is not the same as a contact tracer - the latter requires as a minimum a Band 6 nursing level (or equivalent) plus other experience - including registration with such as the NMC - as far as we are aware the call handler role does not.  And please excuse my scepticism - but I suspect that the majority of call handlers are not new employees at all but redeployments from other government helpline services.  I do hope Hancock is not embarking on a little bit of spin to disguise the fact that he has not employed the 18,000 contact tracers he set out to employ by now.

My Mrs has applied to be a contact tracer and has been told that she has got through to the interview stage - but doesn’t have a date for it yet.  If the government has all the contact tracers they need maybe she won’t bother. And she will be pretty dismayed if this is just a smoke screen to try and hide another bit of a failure.  Sadly. 

I hope I misunderstood the figures. But if someone can clarify what Hancock has said.


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2020)

Analogies aren't meant to be factually representative, they are a slightly abstract or allegorical way of viewing something, often used to make the matter easier for someone to understand.

'You're like a fish out of water'   isnt suggesting that you've turned into a fish and are suffocating.  With Corona virus someone might say 'This is a war we must win' or even 'We cannot allow this hidden enemy to win the war, we must fight and destroy it with every weapon in our armoury'   OK, flowery language but sometimes it can register the seriousness of a situation with some people and help reinforce a common cause.  I really dont see why anyone should be offended by it but if you are it is just a symptom of how 'One man's meat is another's poison ' 😉


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not a case of walking in anyone’s shoes, each member of a civilised society contributes in their own way, it’s the ridiculous analogies and sentiments of comparing it to WW2 that annoy me.

I’m sure someone could put up an argument to compare the risk and being alert to any danger in life to Covid-19, wearing Uniform or not we are all at risk from terrorism and have all experienced it, but it’s the comparing it to the blitz and rationing and sitting in Anderson Shelters etc is plain daft.

What next? Compare NHS staff to WW1 Soldiers and them being sent over the top to face certain death.
		
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TBH, I'm not bothered about comparisons either way. But any crisis, whatever it is, brings about different human strengths and weaknesses. Strength of character, stamina, fortitude, overcoming fear, putting yourself in danger for others. And then there's fear, anxiety, depression and a potential for PTSD for those who experience it over a prolonged period.

When you were out there where the shots were flying you'll have seen someone looking like a scared rabbit and someone barely registering the noise, their brain recognising its nowhere near them. And if you spent a few hours in ICU you would hear alarms going off almost all of the time, and you would see the rabbit in the headlights and a lot of people who'd give it barely a second glance. ICU for the uninitiated, especially a relative is frightening, and it generates the flight or fight response.

How different people rationalise their current experiences is actually a very personal thing, and is about frontal lobe, back of house. If they want to rationalise it as a war, for their own piece of mind, I actually think its wrong of you or Wolfie to dismiss them. Not being able to rationalise things, and put them in the filing cabinet at the back of the brain, is what causes mental issues. I don't disagree with how you and Wolfie view this current crisis, nor your views on how others might view it but dismissing them is actually very wrong.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Death of a pupil ? Is that Chinese whispers.

https://www.chardandilminsternews.c...ovid-19-linked-french-schools-days-reopening/

The schools were someone has found to have Covid are temp closing but I can’t find any report of a pupil dying because of going back to school ?

As for your wife and daughter I’m sorry but the schools can’t stay shut on the basis of individual issues - that will be down to personal protection from your daughter. The virus is going to around for a long time with no vaccine really in sight
		
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My apologies I misread it.
I have edited my post .
But the point still stands that a pupil can be infected.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That sucks, sorry you guys are in that situation.

I'm not sure policy can be set on individual circumstances as callous as that sounds. However that needs to be addressed, those sharing a house with an "at risk" should not be made to go back to work whatever field.
		
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That’s her dilemma .
Either not go to work or find somewhere else to live.
Should she really have to move home just to do her job ?
Who pays for that?
Where would she go all hotels around here are closed.?


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## IanM (May 18, 2020)

I've just had an email from my MS (Member of Welsh Parliament categorically confirming that in Wales....we are still in lock down except,


You can drive to a Garden Centre.  No limits or restictions
You can drive to golf "locally.  No definition of local as Wales is a mix of urban and rural.  But 23 miles from Cardiff to Porthcawl is specifically mentioned as too far.  So did I break the law this morning?? No idea.  (16 miles away from a village)
You can go fishing.  As long as you walk there.  No driving allowed.  
Someone find me some logic!!


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## AmandaJR (May 18, 2020)

I'm not at all sure what the answer is with schools. I do really worry about those children from problem homes and what they could be going through without school as respite and "shelter". Childline calls have increased since lockdown.

So it seems logical to wait until September but that's a long time for such children to suffer, never mind the gaps in education.

Can it be optional? Key workers children attending is optional so let the parents of the age groups concerned decide and declare their intentions so the school can plan.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2020)

PaulS said:



			On what planet is that some sort of relevance ?

Seriously - why are people always try to compare this situation with something that happened in history , we have never been in this situation before with the current way we live our lives

World War were different
Spanish Flu was different
The Plague was different
		
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Perhaps the relevance that not all advice from scientists has stood the test of time.


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## rosecott (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Won’t be long until those who have never served come along and tell us bringing back National Service will sort all our problems out.

Click to expand...

Now you've nearly tempted me to say "never did me any harm",


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2020)

IanM said:



			I've just had an email from my MS (Member of Welsh Parliament categorically confirming that in Wales....we are still in lock down except,


You can drive to a Garden Centre.  No limits or restictions
You can drive to golf "locally.  No definition of local as Wales is a mix of urban and rural.  But 23 miles from Cardiff to Porthcawl is specifically mentioned as too far.  So did I break the law this morning?? No idea.  (16 miles away from a village)
You can go fishing.  As long as you walk there.  No driving allowed. 
Someone find me some logic!!
		
Click to expand...

So you can drive to golf .
But can’t to fish.?
Who thought of that, someone’s partner dosnt like fishing.


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## Reemul (May 18, 2020)

At my wife's school I have some updated figures, so far it looks like 45% of reception and year 1 coming back and around 60% for year 6. Many parents are also saying it depends on what happens in the next few weeks and that a drop is likely to increase participation and an increase in deaths or not a small enough drop will cause a decrease in participation. 

Common sense really


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2020)

From 28th May my wife and I should be able to meet up outdoors with my two daughters and their families [not at the same time] so long as we social distance.
Golf and other outdoor sports [to be defined] garden centres etc to be opened.
Good planning from the Scottish Gov. Give everyone a chance to get organised.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2020)

Listening to Raab - but comments apply to everyone...there is unprecedented ramping up of the use of unprecedented which applies to the use of ramping up. 😍


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			TBH, I'm not bothered about comparisons either way. But any crisis, whatever it is, brings about different human strengths and weaknesses. Strength of character, stamina, fortitude, overcoming fear, putting yourself in danger for others. And then there's fear, anxiety, depression and a potential for PTSD for those who experience it over a prolonged period.

When you were out there where the shots were flying you'll have seen someone looking like a scared rabbit and someone barely registering the noise, their brain recognising its nowhere near them. And if you spent a few hours in ICU you would hear alarms going off almost all of the time, and you would see the rabbit in the headlights and a lot of people who'd give it barely a second glance. ICU for the uninitiated, especially a relative is frightening, and it generates the flight or fight response.

How different people rationalise their current experiences is actually a very personal thing, and is about frontal lobe, back of house. If they want to rationalise it as a war, for their own piece of mind, I actually think its wrong of you or Wolfie to dismiss them. Not being able to rationalise things, and put them in the filing cabinet at the back of the brain, is what causes mental issues. I don't disagree with how you and Wolfie view this current crisis, nor your views on how others might view it but dismissing them is actually very wrong.
		
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I agree with what you say as you are looking at it through the eyes of an individual, what I’m dismissing is others comparing it when they have no idea either.

My issue is those in positions of influence telling us as a collective how it should be compared and thought of, that daft list that started this discussion has been pushed today by the likes of Lord Ashcroft, it must be easy to be a tax exile in Belize telling us how our current situation is so like WW2 and how modern society wouldn’t of coped!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2020)

BBC and Sky both now reporting that the government have employed 21,000 contact tracers.  This is NOT what Matt Hancock actually said in the HoC in his statement, and so maybe his answer to the later question when he made the 21,000 contact tracers statement/claim has done the trick...pressure off.

If she hadn’t already applied and be awaiting an interview to be a contact tracer, my Mrs says if the 21,000 contact tracers is true then she now wouldn’t bother applying.


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BBC and Sky both now reporting that the government have employed 21,000 contact tracers.  This is NOT what Matt Hancock actually said in the HoC in his statement, and so maybe his answer to the later question when he made the 21,000 contact tracers statement/claim has done the trick...pressure off.

If she hadn’t already applied and be awaiting an interview to be a contact tracer, my Mrs says if the 21,000 contact tracers is true then she now wouldn’t bother applying.
		
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The contact tracers are a team and when your wife applied she may have noticed that they have different jobs called something else and paid at different rates. Contact Tracer is just being used generically.  Many post are being filled by those in the public sector who arnt working in their current field.


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BBC and Sky both now reporting that the government have employed 21,000 contact tracers.  This is NOT what Matt Hancock actually said in the HoC in his statement, and so maybe his answer to the later question when he made the 21,000 contact tracers statement/claim has done the trick...pressure off.

If she hadn’t already applied and be awaiting an interview to be a contact tracer, my Mrs says if the 21,000 contact tracers is true then she now wouldn’t bother applying.
		
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BBC reported on 1800 hrs news just that original figure was for 18,000 but they have reached 21,000.


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree with what you say as you are looking at it through the eyes of an individual, what I’m dismissing is others comparing it when they have no idea either.

My issue is those in positions of influence telling us as a collective how it should be compared and thought of, that daft list that started this discussion has been pushed today by the likes of Lord Ashcroft, it must be easy to be a tax exile in Belize telling us how our current situation is so like WW2 and how modern society wouldn’t of coped!
		
Click to expand...

A Cognitive Behavioural Therapist would create coping strategies and phrases to help people cope with anxiety, stress etc. I'm not fussed either way if the powers that be have used similar phraseology, maybe even suggested by others, to give people something to focus on rather than have them fearing a great unknown. 

Does it actually matter? And, equally, why do you and Wolfie feel so strongly about it? Does it actually matter? Is it an ex-forces 'ownership' thing? As a civvie, I can't see why you're both so absolutely pee'd off by it. Its just an almost nothing phrase thrown out there to give the masses a focus.

As for Lord Ashcroft, like Tony Blair, he's just an irritating noise in the background, a mosquito, a yesterday man? If I saw his name in an article I'd skip over it, just as I do with Blair and Major.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			BBC reported on 1800 hrs news just that original figure was for 18,000 but they have reached 21,000.
		
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Yes I know - but was it not the plan to employ 18000 contact tracers.  Hancock’s current figure is 8500 - and that chimes with Brandon Lewis’s 1500 at start of last week.

And yes - as you say, i am pretty sure that the call handlers will have been largely redeployed from other depts and are not newly employed as seems to be what is being said. 

So do we still need another 9500 contact tracers or not?  If not then my wife might as well not bother.

This must surely matter as the contact tracing is part of the core strategy for enabling children to return to school - and if we are still only half way to the number required and training is still to be done....?


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			his statement I am sure he said 22,000 had been employed - then he said 8500 contact tracers and, I think, 13,500 call handlers.  I don’t recall the exact total and split but the 8500 contact tracers was definite. Then later under questioning he said the government had employed 22,000 contact tracers.
I hope I misunderstood the figures. But if someone can clarify what Hancock has said.
		
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13500 + 8500 - 22000!

'Nuf said!


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



*My wife is 64 and has a suppressed immune system.
My daughter is a primary school Sen teacher.
If she brings the virus home I could lose my wife or my own life.*
So this sort of sets my opinion.
100% safe you are correct.
But the fact that France is shutting schools again after the infection of a pupil seems to me that the science might not be all it’s made out to be.
Obviously people’s circumstances dictate their thoughts, and I would not criticise anyone who takes a different path to me.
I just don’t think putting 5/6 yr olds back in school is the right call atm.

Given the rise in traffic I think your prob right.
		
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This sort of circumstance needs to be taken into account when 'return to work' orders are made!

Heads are the obvious arbiters of who should be 'excluded' from the general 'return to work' order - in spite of teachers natural devotion to their pupils!

Your wife needs to announce her susceptibility and the Head needs to act, without prejudice. Your own situation is no different to anyone else's imo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A Cognitive Behavioural Therapist would create coping strategies and phrases to help people cope with anxiety, stress etc. I'm not fussed either way if the powers that be have used similar phraseology, maybe even suggested by others, to give people something to focus on rather than have them fearing a great unknown.

Does it actually matter? And, equally, why do you and Wolfie feel so strongly about it? Does it actually matter? Is it an ex-forces 'ownership' thing? As a civvie, I can't see why you're both so absolutely pee'd off by it. Its just an almost nothing phrase thrown out there to give the masses a focus.

As for Lord Ashcroft, like Tony Blair, he's just an irritating noise in the background, a mosquito, a yesterday man? If I saw his name in an article I'd skip over it, just as I do with Blair and Major.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not an ex-forces ownership for me, it’s listening to the stories of those that experienced WW2, both in and out of service, visiting Dachau and Belsen, seeing the damage it did to the Countries, Cultures and the effects it still has on the World today.

I simply find it insulting to that generation, no matter how tough and heartbreaking the current pandemic is.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A Cognitive Behavioural Therapist would create coping strategies and phrases to help people cope with anxiety, stress etc. I'm not fussed either way if the powers that be have used similar phraseology, maybe even suggested by others, to give people something to focus on rather than have them fearing a great unknown.

*Does it actually matter? And, equally, why do you and Wolfie feel so strongly about it? Does it actually matter? Is it an ex-forces 'ownership' thing? *As a civvie, I can't see why you're both so absolutely pee'd off by it. Its just an almost nothing phrase thrown out there to give the masses a focus.

As for Lord Ashcroft, like Tony Blair, he's just an irritating noise in the background, a mosquito, a yesterday man? If I saw his name in an article I'd skip over it, just as I do with Blair and Major.
		
Click to expand...

So going by your previous post accusing us of being dismissive of peoples opinion. What exactly is that bit in bold then if not dismissive of what we think or feel. For me it does matter because its personally emotive as someone thats been in war zones on multiple occasions right up front line and seen the true horrors of what that means and how its fought which is so far removed from what Covid-19 is.  A nothing phase to you but an emotive phrase to me. Or am I not allowed to feel like that because its not the rationale thats fits the narrative of others in the thread.. 

Plus that aside I find it disrespectful to the memory of WW2 veterans that went through far worse for far longer with much less opportunity than those have here and now. 

If thats being dismissive, so be it I'll stand by my opinion.


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## Kellfire (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So you can drive to golf .
But can’t to fish.?
Who thought of that, someone’s partner dosnt like fishing.
		
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Because golfing is exercising and good for you whereas there is almost zero physical benefit to fishing.


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## MegaSteve (May 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Because golfing is exercising and good for you whereas there is almost zero physical benefit to fishing.
		
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Getting out and about, whatever you are doing, is great for your wellbeing... Which is every bit as important as being physically well... IMHO


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Because golfing is exercising and good for you whereas there is almost zero physical benefit to fishing.
		
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Big positive for the mental wellbeing of those who do it. Surely that has merit?

I don't go fishing myself but I can see the benefit to those who do. Pretty easy to isolate doing it as well.


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Because golfing is exercising and good for you whereas ther*e is almost zero physical benefit to fishing*.
		
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But serious 'non-physical' benefit, which is just as important!


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The flaw in that story is that at the start of WW2 Parliament got shot of an unpopular disorganised ineffective leader and replaced him with an effective leader who lead a united national government.

Click to expand...

Actually, the 'ineffective leader' removed himself!


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## drdel (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A Cognitive Behavioural Therapist would create coping strategies and phrases to help people cope with anxiety, stress etc. I'm not fussed either way if the powers that be have used similar phraseology, maybe even suggested by others, to give people something to focus on rather than have them fearing a great unknown.

Does it actually matter? And, equally, why do you and Wolfie feel so strongly about it? Does it actually matter? Is it an ex-forces 'ownership' thing? As a civvie, I can't see why you're both so absolutely pee'd off by it. Its just an almost nothing phrase thrown out there to give the masses a focus.

As for Lord Ashcroft, like Tony Blair, he's just an irritating noise in the background, a mosquito, a yesterday man? If I saw his name in an article I'd skip over it, just as I do with Blair and Major.
		
Click to expand...

I think its based in the comaradrie built up in many of the 'Forces', Armed service, Police, Fire and Ambulance and many tough'professions' where there can be shared life changing, dangerous and traumatic experiences. Its not exactly a "them and us" but its close and it is common to say "you haven't experienced what we have so you don't understand!" as a put-down.

I spent over 20 years training senior tri-service officers, most from the UK but also from USAF, Aussie and Far East: there was always this resistance with a new training cohort. Once overcome (usually after a long session in the mess) they were generally fully receptive and great fun, but not always. However, in recent years the military have been more open and accepted expert 'outsiders' and I was 'lucky to be involved accepted by many Generals, Commodores and Air Marshals during several of our scuffles in the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

I'm sure you (hobbit)  have experienced the same scepticism from senior medics who resist civilian 'intereference' irrespective of the depth of expertise in your own field.

Hopefully there's enough fundamental respect to overcome the differences to keep this debate healthy rather us all just argue the toss over analogies/comparisons.


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## Kellfire (May 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Big positive for the mental wellbeing of those who do it. Surely that has merit?

I don't go fishing myself but I can see the benefit to those who do. Pretty easy to isolate doing it as well.
		
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Oh there’s definitely a mental benefit but physical takes massive precedence right now, as awful as that is.


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## DanFST (May 18, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s her dilemma .
Either not go to work or find somewhere else to live.
Should she really have to move home just to do her job ?
Who pays for that?
Where would she go all hotels around here are closed.?
		
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If I had my way she'd be on furlough until it was safe for your wife to leave. Along with anyone else in the same situation that hasn't changed residence since this happened. (not halfway through the school year). r


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## PaulS (May 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Oh there’s definitely a mental benefit but physical takes massive precedence right now, as awful as that is.
		
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People have been able to go out and physical exercise where as the mental side right now is very tiring for a lot of people and it’s prob affecting people more than any physical issues.

I’m not sure either takes precedent over the other right now with both being very key to the future


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## Kellfire (May 18, 2020)

PaulS said:



			People have been able to go out and physical exercise where as the mental side right now is very tiring for a lot of people and it’s prob affecting people more than any physical issues.

I’m not sure either takes precedent over the other right now with both being very key to the future
		
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Covid is killing more people than mental fatigue. Again, I’m not belittling the mental aspect but merely giving my side of where the current thinking is and that I am inclined to agree with it begrudgingly.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That's the only aspect in which war is similar. That is where similarities end period.

A war is fought against a known enemy, a virus is an unknown entity that cannot be seen nor can it be physically fought by an army, air force or Navy. Wars are easier to unite politics on especially if they're being fought on a home front.

This virus is nothing like a war it can't be conquered in the same way, this is something that requires not brute military force, tactics and solving by the taking of lives and territory, this is something that scientists and virologists will sit in a lab working through to create vaccine or by government giving the correct information to its people to help reduce spread to prevent any further loss of life.

As for party politics they don't disappear in war either but are conveniently forgotten once victory has been assured and pats on the back occur.

As for calling a poster disingenuously thick perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes or profession. Because trust me I can guarantee the plight with this virus is nothing like being boots on the ground fighting a war.
		
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I have seen many posts from you castigating some for comparing the fight against this virus with war.
I understand you have a military background, and if you think the comparison being made by myself is about being in a war as a military man, then you are mistaken. 
I respect all military , especially those who have seen action in war. It is something I have been spared, and I am thankful for it. I hear from time to time that hardly any war veterans speak of their experiences, and I can only guess why.  I am especially mindful of the recent wars against guerilla enemies.
However, Wolf, I never intended nor do I think I did, compare the fight against the virus with military action.. My comparison was in the similarities where the Nation is facing as a whole, a common threat. That the nation needs to pull together, for the good of each other and not just for ourselves or a particular faction.
Those things were done by the populace  in the war . They should be done now.  I was not saying that we faced anything like what the military faced.
Thank God!


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So going by your previous post accusing us of being dismissive of peoples opinion. What exactly is that bit in bold then if not dismissive of what we think or feel. For me it does matter because its personally emotive as someone thats been in war zones on multiple occasions right up front line and seen the true horrors of what that means and how its fought which is so far removed from what Covid-19 is.  A nothing phase to you but an emotive phrase to me. Or am I not allowed to feel like that because its not the rationale thats fits the narrative of others in the thread..

Plus that aside I find it disrespectful to the memory of WW2 veterans that went through far worse for far longer with much less opportunity than those have here and now.

If thats being dismissive, so be it I'll stand by my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Wolfie, that was clumsy of me. I'm not dismissing your opinion BUT neither am I being dismissive of others having a different view on how they rationalise it either. I pay equal respect to yours and theirs. AND I give equal respect to those that gown up, mask up etc every day. What they do is very different to what you did but as far as I'm concerned it deserves equal respect.

Not once have I brought into question what veterans have gone through, in this generation or previous ones. I've campaigned for the RBL, and I've worked in support of veterans that have struggled for years. And on occasion I've travelled 100's of miles to do it. And I've stood at every Remembrance Sunday going back to the mid 70's. You've earned my respect for what you've done and where you've been but you haven't earned the right to lecture me.

As for how you feel about the narrative others have put to it, I agree with you in the sentiment but not in the saying of it. But I feel that if that is how they deal with it, fine. I want people to come out of this horror show in one piece, and if that means I have to bite my tongue because their narrative is different to mine, that's what I'll do. If you want to have a pop at them for it, crack on but just remember its their mental pitprop you're attacking.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 18, 2020)

I've discovered that I hate inconvenience even more than I love life.
I would have preferred that a giant asteroid struck the earth, destroying all life instantly, rather than go through the nonsense with which we're presently afflicted.

Not for anything, but I'm really sick of this crap.
I don't want to stay home.
And I don't want to go out among all the diseased cretins.

[Being dead is a piece of cake, but the process of getting there can be a real bother.]

Sometimes there just isn't an acceptable answer.
Why couldn't my sainted mother have had a headache that night?


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Covid is killing more people than mental fatigue.
		
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But equally, Covid is killing more people than lack of physical exercise.


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## Kellfire (May 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			But equally, Covid is killing more people than lack of physical exercise.
		
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True but physics exercise is good for mental health AND the body. It’s a tough balancing act.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Oh there’s definitely a mental benefit but physical takes massive precedence right now, as awful as that is.
		
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In the example of fishing I don't see that it needs to be excluded, why there is a precedence needed. There is no greater risk yet the benefit is significant. It is an outdoor activity, covid doesn't like outdoors, easy to distance, why not?

In terms of the mental toll that is something we simply won't know for some time but this is an easy one to give relief to those who find it peaceful, relaxing, an escape.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Not Coronavirus, but a current example of the WW2 spirit continuing were a Commonwealth Soldier fights for this Country and then we cast them aside! Disgraceful.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/18/british-army-veteran-faces-27000-nhs-hospital-bill


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry Wolfie, that was clumsy of me. I'm not dismissing your opinion BUT neither am I being dismissive of others having a different view on how they rationalise it either. I pay equal respect to yours and theirs. AND I give equal respect to those that gown up, mask up etc every day. What they do is very different to what you did but as far as I'm concerned it deserves equal respect.

Not once have I brought into question what veterans have gone through, in this generation or previous ones. I've campaigned for the RBL, and I've worked in support of veterans that have struggled for years. And on occasion I've travelled 100's of miles to do it. And I've stood at every Remembrance Sunday going back to the mid 70's. You've earned my respect for what you've done and where you've been but you haven't earned the right to lecture me.

As for how you feel about the narrative others have put to it, I agree with you in the sentiment but not in the saying of it. But I feel that if that is how they deal with it, fine. I want people to come out of this horror show in one piece, and if that means I have to bite my tongue because their narrative is different to mine, that's what I'll do. If you want to have a pop at them for it, crack on but just remember its their mental pitprop you're attacking.
		
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I haven't lectured you, i ignore your first post in which you called me out. I only replied to the 2nd because you said why does it matter. In which you were dismissive of me and Paul. I gave a direct reply not a lecture if anything looking back over the 2 posts it is you Hobbit who is lecturing. I never said you were questioning anything, I'd not replied you till that last post of yours. I see you've also taken this to PM so I'll read that and reply accordingly and not go further on here with you about it. But don't tell me I'm lecturing you when it's you who has called me out at length twice depsite me not discussing with you prior and me only replying to what your saying..


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2020)

Anyway, best quote of the day from a 105 lady on the local TV having just been released after having the virus.

Reporter:  How do you feel

105 year old:  With my hands


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not Coronavirus, but a current example of the WW2 spirit continuing were a Commonwealth Soldier fights for this Country and then we cast them aside! Disgraceful.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/18/british-army-veteran-faces-27000-nhs-hospital-bill

Click to expand...

This issue isnt really anything to do with someone using wartime analogies as a parallel for the fight or battle against Corona Virus (excuse the terminology but it seems suitable) However I cant see anyone disagreeing with your sentiments in this particular case as its presented.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 19, 2020)

BBC News - Coronavirus: UK too slow to increase testing capacity, say MPs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52716828
When the inquest comes into lessons learnt this one should be front and centre.


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## DanFST (May 19, 2020)

Northern Ireland opening restrictions well beyond anything else in the UK, whilst not presenting any data or being too clear on dates and logistics......

Yet eerily quiet on here. One could think posts on here might not of actually been about concern for safety, rather that they don't like the current majority government?


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## pendodave (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Northern Ireland opening restrictions well beyond anything else in the UK, whilst not presenting any data or being too clear on dates and logistics......

Yet eerily quiet on here. One could think posts on here might not of actually been about concern for safety, rather that they don't like the current majority government?

Click to expand...

What's eerily quiet on here us that unemployment increased by 1m people  last month, and that doesn't even cover the main period of lockdown or the unwinding of the furlough..and no-one sees fit to mention it.
Earlier in this thread there was talk of protecting our most valuable assets. 
The most valuable asset of a modern democracy is a functioning economy. We are burning it to the ground for an entire generation. Fine if you're old and rich, not so much for everybody else.


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## DRW (May 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			What's eerily quiet on here us that unemployment increased by 1m people  last month, and that doesn't even cover the main period of lockdown or the unwinding of the furlough..and no-one sees fit to mention it.
Earlier in this thread there was talk of protecting our most valuable assets.
The most valuable asset of a modern democracy is a functioning economy. We are burning it to the ground for an entire generation. Fine if you're old and rich, not so much for everybody else.
		
Click to expand...

Its terrible out there, many many people not working and billions of pound lost(weird thinking that, as the world is in a go slow state, but that is the way the world goes round).

I know from people in business, they are now starting to realise the economy is not just going to be turned on again and be at full bore. Big sectors(& support parts) wont be back to normal for years or will be running at reduced capacity and that's assuming a vaccine comes along quickly. Some sectors wont be able to make a profit from social distancing and will go bust and that will filter into other sectors.

Very worrying times across the board, for economy, storing up medical issues, loss of life and/or severe hardship(health and wealth). And that's only looking at the UK, poorer countries are going to need help as well. Can see money printing being the only way out across the world.

All sides to this are razor sharp and frankly its poo.

I hope I am proved wrong.


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## road2ruin (May 19, 2020)

Warning, this is a rather long and waffley post…..

As a father of a 5yr old we have been in the thick of the ‘going back to school’ discussion for the last couple of weeks and my overriding observation is how the talk has become very much Brexit like. It is very divisive and what were usually very supportive WhatsApp groups for the mum’s within the class have become a judgement argument between those who aren’t sending their children back because they don’t feel safe and cannot believe anyone would want to risk the health of their child and those who are sending theirs back and thing anyone who doesn’t is being overly scared and there are risks in everything we do. There doesn’t seem to be room for people to appreciate that they have their own point of view but everyone’s circumstances are different and we shouldn’t be judging parents for the decision that they make in the coming weeks.

FWIW we are going to be sending our daughter in on June 8th (in our school they are having nursery/reception in on the 1st and then Yr1 a week later). My personal view is that actually it’s probably going to be safest for her to go in for a few weeks before the summer given all of the plans that have been put in place whereas in September there are suddenly going to be all year groups back, 30 in a class and the playgrounds full again. Having spoken to a few teachers that I know they feel the same, whilst they are concerned about going back in June they are more worried about September on the basis that there is unlikely to be a vaccine and whilst the R number might be lower there are unlikely to be many protective measures in place simply because their cannot be with all classes back in action. I appreciate there are many different views on this from parents/staff so I am not suggesting these are right or wrong, it’s just the attitudes of those who I personally know.

Myself and my wife have talked about this at length and it’s not so much the educational impact that this is having on our daughter that is worrying us. I’m sure she will catch up although being a summer born she was already playing catch up so this break in learning hasn’t helped. She was a very willing student to begin with however the novelty soon wore off and we don’t have a big enough house to have a area specifically for ‘teaching’ as there are still distractions around. We have done our best to keep things ticking over however the summer term started and the school started expecting us to teach new things, this wasn’t so much of an issue in the early days as we were just reinforcing what she’d already been taught however the arrival of fractions, multiplication and division were a step too far!!

Anyway, back on topic, the thing we have noticed is that she is far more prone to emotional outbursts, she’s quieter and she doesn’t want to do Zoom calls with her friends as it upsets her. We have tried to keep things as social as possible however when she’s outside she’s scared of people coming anywhere near here due to the virus and in all honestly we’d like her to get back into an environment where she starts to realise that it’s not a killer (although obviously it does kill) and she doesn’t have to be scared about people. For me, the June start will hopefully allow her some time to get to grips with this and when September starts (in theory) she will be better prepared for that.

Last night we had the letter from our school to give us an idea of what we (and our daughter) can expect going back. The following may not be of interest but will give you an insight into the preparation schools are doing.

_No social distancing as that cannot be reasonably expected of Yr 1 pupils.

Children taught in ‘bubbles’ of 15. They will be allocated adult(s) who will only work within their bubble and will not teach/work with any other bubbles.

One way system for drop off/collection with staggered start/end times with parents being given a 5 minute window at the start and end of each day.

Full days bar Friday when the school will be closed in the afternoon for a deep clean and teachers can plan/prep

Lunch in classroom and traditional play time/lunch break will be replaced by allocated time out of the classroom for each bubble(s)

No school uniform and no books or pencil cases etc to be brought in with child. Just a water bottle, snack and coat if required.

No face cover/masks will be required by either children or teachers.

If there is an incidence of suspected COVID-19 then parents will be informed and will be asked to collect their child immediately and be asked to self isolate for 14 days. The school will not be closed at this point and only those within the particular bubble will be asked not to attend for the self isolation period.

The school have then gone on to ask parents to confirm who will be attending come the start date. For any that decide that they aren’t willing to attend, they will not be given the option to change their mind at a later point in the term unless someone else drops out i.e. if in a couple of weeks you see that all is working well and you now feel comfortable to send your child in then you can’t unless there is space. If not then you will have to wait until September._

Again, apologies for the length of this, ultimately I think there will only be a right or wrong in hindsight and we have made a decision based on the risks to us as an immediate family and also for the mental health of our daughter. We are not judging anyone who feels that the risks are too high and will not be sending theirs back in and hope that we don’t get into the situation where we’re faced with being judged ourselves. That said if people do then they can go for it, I have thicker skin that that.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Northern Ireland opening restrictions well beyond anything else in the UK, whilst not presenting any data or being too clear on dates and logistics......

Yet eerily quiet on here. One could think posts on here might not of actually been about concern for safety, rather that they don't like the current majority government?

Click to expand...

What is strange is that NI was originally more cautious than England but has now seemed to have jumped a stage and is allowing up to 6 people to meet outside, not just the 2 as in England.

A question for the folks on here from NI, how is this being seen over there? Are people happy for the increased freedom or fearful of a step too soon? A jump to 6 over here would have been slaughtered in the press.


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## DanFST (May 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			What's eerily quiet on here us that unemployment increased by 1m people  last month, and that doesn't even cover the main period of lockdown or the unwinding of the furlough..and no-one sees fit to mention it.
Earlier in this thread there was talk of protecting our most valuable assets.
The most valuable asset of a modern democracy is a functioning economy. We are burning it to the ground for an entire generation. Fine if you're old and rich, not so much for everybody else.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I see your point, I feel it's quiet as that's incredibly obvious. 

Yes the economy is tanked, but everyone's is. It's be tanked even if we'd shut borders instantly before a case appeared here. The key take away is that many will be out of work, sectors will die out as they are no longer sustainable whilst this virus is about. 

However, other sectors will grow, people will have to change careers no doubt. It'll grow as a whole as long as we adapt, it always has. (maybe that's another thread to keep separate from this one?)


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## Hobbit (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What is strange is that NI was originally more cautious than England but has now seemed to have jumped a stage and is allowing up to 6 people to meet outside, not just the 2 as in England.

A question for the folks on here from NI, how is this being seen over there? Are people happy for the increased freedom or fearful of a step too soon? A jump to 6 over here would have been slaughtered in the press.
		
Click to expand...

Be interested to know where NI is on the curve. In Spain, each of the provinces is on any one of 3 phases. Madrid/Barcelona is on the original phase 0, with a few relaxations. They're calling it phase 0.5. Most of Spain is in phase 1. The Canaries and one of the Balearics is in phase 2. However, moving between provinces is prohibited.

I can see sense in different regions being at different levels providing there's the right regs for each region.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2020)

Desperate stuff from BBC Scotland's Sarah Smith.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...h-claims-fm-enjoys-making-decisions-covid-19/
She has looked more and more uncomfortable as support for Sturgeon's Covid actions gains strong support in Scotland.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Be interested to know where NI is on the curve. In Spain, each of the provinces is on any one of 3 phases. Madrid/Barcelona is on the original phase 0, with a few relaxations. They're calling it phase 0.5. Most of Spain is in phase 1. The Canaries and one of the Balearics is in phase 2. However, moving between provinces is prohibited.

I can see sense in different regions being at different levels providing there's the right regs for each region.
		
Click to expand...

I have absolutely no problem with different regions, or in our case countries, moving at different speeds. In the case of the UK it is devolution in action. I found it very odd that the people moaning most about Boris moving differently to the devolved nations were the ones who want to be able to make their own decisions for themselves. Seperate nations under the same banner making local decisions that suit them.


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## Hacker Khan (May 19, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Warning, this is a rather long and waffley post…..

As a father of a 5yr old we have been in the thick of the ‘going back to school’ discussion for the last couple of weeks and my overriding observation is how the talk has become very much Brexit like. It is very divisive and what were usually very supportive WhatsApp groups for the mum’s within the class have become a judgement argument between those who aren’t sending their children back because they don’t feel safe and cannot believe anyone would want to risk the health of their child and those who are sending theirs back and thing anyone who doesn’t is being overly scared and there are risks in everything we do. There doesn’t seem to be room for people to appreciate that they have their own point of view but everyone’s circumstances are different and we shouldn’t be judging parents for the decision that they make in the coming weeks.

FWIW we are going to be sending our daughter in on June 8th (in our school they are having nursery/reception in on the 1st and then Yr1 a week later). My personal view is that actually it’s probably going to be safest for her to go in for a few weeks before the summer given all of the plans that have been put in place whereas in September there are suddenly going to be all year groups back, 30 in a class and the playgrounds full again. Having spoken to a few teachers that I know they feel the same, whilst they are concerned about going back in June they are more worried about September on the basis that there is unlikely to be a vaccine and whilst the R number might be lower there are unlikely to be many protective measures in place simply because their cannot be with all classes back in action. I appreciate there are many different views on this from parents/staff so I am not suggesting these are right or wrong, it’s just the attitudes of those who I personally know.

Myself and my wife have talked about this at length and it’s not so much the educational impact that this is having on our daughter that is worrying us. I’m sure she will catch up although being a summer born she was already playing catch up so this break in learning hasn’t helped. She was a very willing student to begin with however the novelty soon wore off and we don’t have a big enough house to have a area specifically for ‘teaching’ as there are still distractions around. We have done our best to keep things ticking over however the summer term started and the school started expecting us to teach new things, this wasn’t so much of an issue in the early days as we were just reinforcing what she’d already been taught however the arrival of fractions, multiplication and division were a step too far!!

Anyway, back on topic, the thing we have noticed is that she is far more prone to emotional outbursts, she’s quieter and she doesn’t want to do Zoom calls with her friends as it upsets her. We have tried to keep things as social as possible however when she’s outside she’s scared of people coming anywhere near here due to the virus and in all honestly we’d like her to get back into an environment where she starts to realise that it’s not a killer (although obviously it does kill) and she doesn’t have to be scared about people. For me, the June start will hopefully allow her some time to get to grips with this and when September starts (in theory) she will be better prepared for that.

Last night we had the letter from our school to give us an idea of what we (and our daughter) can expect going back. The following may not be of interest but will give you an insight into the preparation schools are doing.

_No social distancing as that cannot be reasonably expected of Yr 1 pupils._

_Children taught in ‘bubbles’ of 15. They will be allocated adult(s) who will only work within their bubble and will not teach/work with any other bubbles._

_One way system for drop off/collection with staggered start/end times with parents being given a 5 minute window at the start and end of each day._

_Full days bar Friday when the school will be closed in the afternoon for a deep clean and teachers can plan/prep_

_Lunch in classroom and traditional play time/lunch break will be replaced by allocated time out of the classroom for each bubble(s)_

_No school uniform and no books or pencil cases etc to be brought in with child. Just a water bottle, snack and coat if required._

_No face cover/masks will be required by either children or teachers._

_If there is an incidence of suspected COVID-19 then parents will be informed and will be asked to collect their child immediately and be asked to self isolate for 14 days. The school will not be closed at this point and only those within the particular bubble will be asked not to attend for the self isolation period._

_The school have then gone on to ask parents to confirm who will be attending come the start date. For any that decide that they aren’t willing to attend, they will not be given the option to change their mind at a later point in the term unless someone else drops out i.e. if in a couple of weeks you see that all is working well and you now feel comfortable to send your child in then you can’t unless there is space. If not then you will have to wait until September._

Again, apologies for the length of this, ultimately I think there will only be a right or wrong in hindsight and we have made a decision based on the risks to us as an immediate family and also for the mental health of our daughter. We are not judging anyone who feels that the risks are too high and will not be sending theirs back in and hope that we don’t get into the situation where we’re faced with being judged ourselves. That said if people do then they can go for it, I have thicker skin that that.
		
Click to expand...

Those preparations are pretty standard across many schools. And you do make a good point that the bigger challenge may well come when schools are expected at have all the kids in.  As the vast majority of schools can keep the pods apart with only 3 years going back and often staggered rota type arrangements.  But that will break down with everyone in.  Our schools classroom are only supposed to hold 23 whilst in reality they all have more kids in. So the classrooms are too small for all the kids in 'normal circumstances'.

Also I'd argue that there can be a right or wrong decision now in terms of you making the best rational call based on your particular circumstances, taking into account all the guidance.  And it seems to me you have made the right call to send your child in. Where as other parents in different circumstances may also make the right call to not send them in. Don't beat yourself up about it.  And I can assure you teachers will be doing all they possibly can to keep the kids that do come in as safe as possible.


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## Hobbit (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I have absolutely no problem with different regions, or in our case countries, moving at different speeds. In the case of the UK it is devolution in action. I found it very odd that the people moaning most about Boris moving differently to the devolved nations were the ones who want to be able to make their own decisions for themselves. Seperate nations under the same banner making local decisions that suit them.
		
Click to expand...

From what I saw on BBC Northeast news last night it might not be a bad thing if different parts of England were at different stages too. But I do read some of the stuff on here with a wry smile. Nicola flag wavers having a pop at Westminister when its Nicola who is deciding what Scotland does in terms of health.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Northern Ireland opening restrictions well beyond anything else in the UK, whilst not presenting any data or being too clear on dates and logistics......

*Yet eerily quiet on here.* One could think posts on here might not of actually been about concern for safety, rather that they don't like the current majority government?

Click to expand...

As a forum or just this thread? If it’s the forum then maybe people are prioritising their lives over “chewing the fat” if it’s this thread, then maybe as it’s a political thread being quiet is a good thing as the majority have put their political allegiances aside while we go through this crisis.
Or those who are against the Government are having reasoned points put back to their criticisms and are accepting them.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I have absolutely no problem with different regions, or in our case countries, moving at different speeds. In the case of the UK it is devolution in action. I found it very odd that the people moaning most about Boris moving differently to the devolved nations were the ones who want to be able to make their own decisions for themselves. Seperate nations under the same banner making local decisions that suit them.
		
Click to expand...

I cannot recall any of the devolved nation posters on here saying that England should not act independently. It would probably have been better for all nations to act together but that was not England's choice.
At that point of losening lockdown Johnson should have made it very clear that he was speaking as an English FM not a UK Prime Minister


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I cannot recall any of the devolved nation posters on here saying that England should not act independently. It would probably have been better for all nations to act together but that was not England's choice.
At that point of losening lockdown Johnson should have made it very clear that he was speaking as an English FM not a UK Prime Minister
		
Click to expand...

Surely as the other Leaders had stated that prior to his broadcast he wasn’t speaking on behalf of them he didn’t need to repeat it?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			From what I saw on BBC Northeast news last night it might not be a bad thing if different parts of England were at different stages too. But I do read some of the stuff on here with a wry smile. Nicola flag wavers having a pop at Westminister when its Nicola who is deciding what Scotland does in terms of health.
		
Click to expand...

I guess the question is how far do you break it down? Northumberland is relatively Covid free, Teeside (the Mario Balotelli of the NE) has it bad, as does Gateshead I believe. Where do we draw the lines? It is perhaps easier in the likes of Spain which has fairly distinct regions and empty gaps between them than England where regions can be less defined, particularly as you move down the country and the population becomes denser. I think you are probably right in that it would be best but I don't think the desire is there to split England up in that manner.


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## Beezerk (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I guess the question is how far do you break it down? Northumberland is relatively Covid free, Teeside (the Mario Balotelli of the NE) has it bad, as does Gateshead I believe. Where do we draw the lines? It is perhaps easier in the likes of Spain which has fairly distinct regions and empty gaps between them than England where regions can be less defined, particularly as you move down the country and the population becomes denser. I think you are probably right in that it would be best but I don't think the desire is there to split England up in that manner.
		
Click to expand...

Put tanks at Scotch Corner to keep all those bloody Southerners out 😁


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I cannot recall any of the devolved nation posters on here saying that England should not act independently. It would probably have been better for all nations to act together but that was not England's choice.
At that point of losening lockdown Johnson should have made it very clear that he was speaking as an English FM not a UK Prime Minister
		
Click to expand...

Johnson set out the policy of the UK govt. The devolved adminstrations were then able to amend that as they suit, as they are able. They did. What's the problem? The cute move from the devolved govts is that they release their decisions on the same day but before the UK govt so they get to get their message out first. It looks as though Boris is splitting away but in reality it is the other way around. Clever politics but it does not change the situation. Either way, you get what you want, the Scottish govt setting the rules for Scotland. You should be happy about that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I guess the question is how far do you break it down? Northumberland is relatively Covid free, Teeside (the Mario Balotelli of the NE) has it bad, as does Gateshead I believe. Where do we draw the lines? It is perhaps easier in the likes of Spain which has fairly distinct regions and empty gaps between them than England where regions can be less defined, particularly as you move down the country and the population becomes denser. I think you are probably right in that it would be best but I don't think the desire is there to split England up in that manner.
		
Click to expand...

Apparently Sunderland for 3 out of the  4 last weeks had more cases per capita than anywhere else in the UK.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Apparently Sunderland for 3 out of the  4 last weeks had more cases per capita than anywhere else in the UK.

Click to expand...

I had not heard that. That is a shocker. If this was not causing loss of life we could pile into the standard Mackem jokes at this stage. In the circumstances it is just very sad to hear.


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## DanFST (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Johnson set out the policy of the UK govt. The devolved adminstrations were then able to amend that as they suit, as they are able. They did. What's the problem?
		
Click to expand...

Just brace yourself if others are still in lock down when furlough payments are scheduled to stop..


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I had not heard that. That is a shocker. If this was not causing loss of life we could pile into the standard Mackem jokes at this stage. In the circumstances it is just very sad to hear.
		
Click to expand...

Seems to concentrated in 3 or 4 local areas, plus not sure if that is the NHS Trust area that covers Washington etc.


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## rudebhoy (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Northern Ireland opening restrictions well beyond anything else in the UK, whilst not presenting any data or being too clear on dates and logistics......

Yet eerily quiet on here. One could think posts on here might not of actually been about concern for safety, rather that they don't like the current majority government?

Click to expand...

Or you might think that has more to do with there being far more posters on here living in England, and Scotland, than there are in NI.


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## User62651 (May 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Apparently Sunderland for 3 out of the  4 last weeks had more cases per capita than anywhere else in the UK.

Click to expand...

Read the other day that Barrow in Furness, Cumbria is the worst place in Eng/Wal for infection rates.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ighest-infection-rate-in-the-country-11989473


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Just brace yourself if others are still in lock down when furlough payments are scheduled to stop..
		
Click to expand...

To be fair the Chancellor is giving lots of forward notice regarding furlough, the time periods are generous, but I take your point. I think the response here will be less bracing and more shrugging of shoulders and shaking of heads if that is the road some want to take.


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## DanFST (May 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Or you might think that has more to do with there being far more posters on here living in England, and Scotland, than there are in NI.
		
Click to expand...

It was a comment regarding a previous locked thread, many posters from outside England were happy to criticise and snipe at the government when they relaxed the lock down, implying lack of safety and no clear data given. However nothing has been said about this NI update, despite being pretty much identical with more freedoms!

Personally good for NI, I couldn't really care what information they divulge etc. I just hope it works for them and it's citizens get a bit better quality of life


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## rudebhoy (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It was a comment regarding a previous locked thread, many posters from outside England were happy to criticise and snipe at the government when they relaxed the lock down, implying lack of safety and no clear data given. However nothing has been said about this NI update, despite being pretty much identical with more freedoms!

Personally good for NI, I couldn't really care what information they divulge etc. I just hope it works for them and it's citizens get a bit better quality of life 

Click to expand...

My point is still 100% valid. People on here, and the media, are going to make a lot more noise about what Westminster does compared to what Stormont, simply by weight of numbers.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The most valuable asset of a modern democracy is a functioning economy. We are burning it to the ground for an entire generation. Fine if you're old and rich, not so much for everybody else.
		
Click to expand...

Why so divisive? What about the Young and rich, Middle aged and rich, anyone who is rich, I dont see why you felt it necessary to be ageist.  The Old are people who have paid the biggest price with this Virus, it has killed proportunatly more of them.  Its rubbish for everyone and pointing fingers at certain demographics does nothing to make it any better, unless you believe some people are expendable and it would be better to sacrifice them so the rest can get on with life. If we lived in a society like that I would rather go first as it wouldn't be a place I wanted to be a member.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Read the other day that Barrow in Furness, Cumbria is the worst place in Eng/Wal for infection rates.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ighest-infection-rate-in-the-country-11989473

Click to expand...

Though it's in a very attractive location on the edge of the Lakes - B-i-F is not a very attractive town and it is a town with a lot of social issues - including a big drug problem.  It's also got the BAESystems shipyard, and where you have one very large employer in a not terribly large town you have a very significant population infection risk - which appears to be what has happened. 

A bit like why comparisons with Belgium's infection rate have to be done with care.  

The source of Belgium's significant infection will almost certainly have been 'The Carnival' at the end of February.  Very large numbers of Belgians attended the three-day event cramming into a small town - with a lot of infection resulting.  When the number infected is taken as a % of the Belgian population of 11m it looks terrible - and it is - but the stats for Belgium seem to be mostly down to that single event rather than an any great subsequent failure to manage the spread of the infection.


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## DanFST (May 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why so divisive? What about the Young and rich, Middle aged and rich, anyone who is rich, I dont see why you felt it necessary to be ageist.  The Old are people who have paid the biggest price with this Virus, it has killed proportunatly more of them.  Its rubbish for everyone and pointing fingers at certain demographics does nothing to make it any better, unless you believe some people are expendable and it would be better to sacrifice them so the rest can get on with life. If we lived in a society like that I would rather go first as it wouldn't be a place I wanted to be a member.
		
Click to expand...


Not sure it's like that.

I believe he meant state pensions are incredibly safe and shouldn't feel the effects. 

S+S isa's and many private pensions are looking pretty grim tho, so not quite a correct comment!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Read the other day that Barrow in Furness, Cumbria is the worst place in Eng/Wal for infection rates.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ighest-infection-rate-in-the-country-11989473

Click to expand...

Living only 8 mile from Sunderland I’m more than happy for it to drop down the table.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Not sure it's like that.

I believe he meant state pensions are incredibly safe and shouldn't feel the effects.

S+S isa's and many private pensions are looking pretty grim tho, so not quite a correct comment!
		
Click to expand...

Why say it then. Try living on the state pension, it's not much and for the majority of pensioners they get a smaller pension than people retiring now. All Old people are not minted.


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## User62651 (May 19, 2020)

First Tory council saying they won't open schools on 1st June. 
So not just politicking then from other non Tory councils also not opening schools?
What a kerfuffle.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Read the other day that Barrow in Furness, Cumbria is the worst place in Eng/Wal for infection rates.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ighest-infection-rate-in-the-country-11989473

Click to expand...

Weird that...... Barrow must be one of the most isolated large towns in England 
No ferries either [I think]


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2020)

There is one aggressive scientific advisor on the briefing today, about time.


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## chrisd (May 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There is one aggressive scientific advisor on the briefing today, about time.
		
Click to expand...

Given that the questioning appears to be getting more accusatory I'm glad that she is👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Weird that...... Barrow must be one of the most isolated large towns in England
No ferries either [I think]
		
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See my earlier post.  One large employer (BAESystems) in a small town that has high levels of social deprivation and addiction.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2020)

Still got no idea from Eustice whether the target of 18,000 contact tracers has been met.  His_ '20,000 recruited to assist in contact tracing'_ doesn't really tell me.  And as the scientist today told us - the important things are contact tracing capability in place and adequate testing being available - and that their advice is not date driven. 

So as previously asked - is anyone clear on how close we are to hitting the 18,000 mid-May target for _contact tracers.  _My Mrs heard from someone that the 18,000 was 15,000 call handlers and 3,000 contact tracers.  But that is at odds with Hancock telling us in the HoC yesterday that of the 21,000 recruited 8,500 have been recruited as contact tracers.

In any case.  As the government seems to be telling us that they've hit their mid-May target for contact tracers, my wife is not going to chase up on it 0- and if things do come to pass and she is offered a job - she may not take it.  That said, although her application has been accepted and she's submitted identify evidence - she has not yet even been offered an interview - her qualifications surely make her an ideal candidate - NMC registered, Band 7 Breast Cancer Nurse Specialist with specialism in family history mapping and risk assessment; currently working part-time on a cancer Helpline.

But hey - it appears she's missed the contact tracer bus - unless someone can tell me that they are still short of CTs.

One thing I got from the briefing today was the impression that the scientists aren't going to let the politicians slopey shoulder the blame for decisions onto the scientists. Of course when asked today who is ultimately responsible for the decisions that have been made - ministers or scientists. Eustice did not answer.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Still got no idea from Eustice whether the target of 18,000 contact tracers has been met.  His_ '20,000 recruited to assist in contact tracing'_ doesn't really tell me.  And as the scientist today told us - the important things are contact tracing capability in place and adequate testing being available - and that their advice is not date driven.

So as previously asked - is anyone clear on how close we are to hitting the 18,000 mid-May target for _contact tracers.  _My Mrs heard from someone that the 18,000 was 15,000 call handlers and 3,000 contact tracers.  But that is at odds with Hancock telling us in the HoC yesterday that of the 21,000 recruited 8,500 have been recruited as contact tracers.

In any case.  As the government seems to be telling us that they've hit their mid-May target for contact tracers, my wife is not going to chase up on it 0- and if things do come to pass and she is offered a job - she may not take it.  That said, although her application has been accepted and she's submitted identify evidence - she has not yet even been offered an interview - her qualifications surely make her an ideal candidate - NMC registered, Band 7 Breast Cancer Nurse Specialist with specialism in family history mapping and risk assessment; currently working part-time on a cancer Helpline.

But hey - it appears she's missed the contact tracer bus - unless someone can tell me that they are still short of CTs.

One thing I got from the briefing today was the impression that the scientists aren't going to let the politicians slopey shoulder the blame for decisions onto the scientists. Of course when asked today who is ultimately responsible for the decisions that have been made - ministers or scientists. Eustice did not answer.
		
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How unusual, another daily negative post


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## Ross61 (May 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There is one aggressive scientific advisor on the briefing today, about time.
		
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I thought she was brilliant. About time they fought back.


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How unusual, another daily negative post
		
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And just as 'unusual', a non-contributory but critical reply! Perhaps you could provide an answer to the legitimate question SILH asked!


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## drdel (May 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How unusual, another daily negative post
		
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Does it really matter to thee and me.!!! 

The beta version has a few bugs, as we'd expect, hence the trial. Not doubt by early June there will be enough people.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			And just as 'unusual', a non-contributory but critical reply! Perhaps you could provide an answer to the legitimate question SILH asked!
		
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He had answers on contact tracing yesterday and further to that, I don't know when his wife applied but going by how long it took to get applicants vetted and ready for NHS responders that was over a month. Believe it or not, they don't take written applications on face value.


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## Beezerk (May 19, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			I thought she was brilliant. About time they fought back.
		
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What did she say? Any chance of a clip?


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			...I don't know when his wife applied but going by how long it took to get applicants vetted and ready for NHS responders that was over a month. Believe it or not, they don't take written applications on face value.
		
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So why not simply give that, or equivalent, reply - or a reference to the info. Much better than the whinge that was you reply!


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So why not simply give that, or equivalent, reply - or a reference to the info. Much better than the whinge that was you reply!
		
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Could have been worse and used your normal one word twaddle reply.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			What did she say? Any chance of a clip?
		
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It's what she refused to say which was more interesting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He had answers on contact tracing yesterday and further to that, I don't know when his wife applied but going by how long it took to get applicants vetted and ready for NHS responders that was over a month. Believe it or not, they don't take written applications on face value.
		
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Brandon Lewis stated on Friday that just over a week ago that 1,500 CTs had been recruited.  I've taken the opportunity to have another listen to what Hancock said yesterday - which was that more the 21,000 contact tracers had been recruited in England including 7,500 Healthcare professionals who would support the call handlers and manually contact individuals to give advice.

My question was simply around the number of contact tracers recruited out of how many required? Because I a was not clear as to whether or not the 18,000 figure to be recruited included call handlers.  Eustice's answer today was '_20,000 recruited to assist in contact tracing'_  and that leaves me wondering a little why they have recruited more than they needed.  Notwithstandng that - that would seem to be a good thing.

And so it appears that my confusion was around who would be doing the contacting, as my understanding was that it would be experienced Healthcare professionals, and that the call handlers would be handling follow-up calls from those contacted.  I clearly misunderstood the 18,000.  Maybe Brandon Lewis also misunderstood when he quoted 1,500 - with that figure most likely being the Healthcare Professionals and not the call handlers - certainly an impressive feat moving from 1500 recruited to more than 21,000 in a week.

My wife applied to be a contact tracer on the 10th May.   With more recruited than the target, she's apparently missed the boat and so will not bother chasing up.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so how many contact tracers have been recruited out of how many required? Because I now have no idea whether or not the 18,000 figure to be recruited included call handlers.  Eustice's answer today was '_20,000 recruited to assist in contact tracing'_  and that leaves me none the wiser.

My wife applied to be a contact tracer on the 10th May.
		
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Why would we be concerned, it's the Government's job to get the scheme up and running, if they don't they can be held to account.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so how many contact tracers have been recruited out of how many required? Because I now have no idea whether or not the 18,000 figure to be recruited included call handlers.  Eustice's answer today was '_20,000 recruited to assist in contact tracing'_  and that leaves me none the wiser.

My wife applied to be a contact tracer on the 10th May.
		
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The man (stated in your post) said 2000 recruited, your are now saying you dont know how many are recruited,  the number is 20,000 until proven otherwise. 

I would presume your wife will have a fair wait while necessary background checks are carried out.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2020)

Pick for Britain.
Any furloughed workers on here going to lend a hand to the hard pressed farmers and help pick the crops/harvest


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## User20205 (May 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pick for Britain.
Any furloughed workers on here going to lend a hand to the hard pressed farmers and help pick the crops/harvest
		
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Are you?


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## DanFST (May 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pick for Britain.
Any furloughed workers on here going to lend a hand to the hard pressed farmers and help pick the crops/harvest
		
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First i've heard of this, the website is down! 


Is this only for farms that aren't exporting their produce? Tax wise, is it additional to your taxable furlough income, or does it remove your furlough payments?


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## User20205 (May 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			First i've heard of this, the website is down!


Is this only for farms that aren't exporting their produce? Tax wise, is it additional to your taxable furlough income, or does it remove your furlough payments?
		
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I registered a few weeks ago. It’s in addition to your furlough payments and would be taxed accordingly from my understanding. Could mean you’ll end up doing it for about £4 p/h


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## User20205 (May 19, 2020)

therod said:



			I registered a few weeks ago. It’s in addition to your furlough payments and would be taxed accordingly from my understanding. Could mean you’ll end up doing it for about £4 p/h
		
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Piece work depending


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## bobmac (May 20, 2020)

therod said:



			I registered a few weeks ago. It’s in addition to your furlough payments and would be taxed accordingly from my understanding. Could mean you’ll end up doing it for about £4 p/h
		
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If the basic minimum wage is £8.72 and you pay 20% tax, I make that almost £7 ph minus a bit of NI.
What have I missed?


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## rudebhoy (May 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If the basic minimum wage is £8.72 and you pay 20% tax, I make that almost £7 ph minus a bit of NI.
What have I missed?
		
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The costs of getting to and from the farm?


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## bobmac (May 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The costs of getting to and from the farm?
		
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When I did picking, there used to be a mini bus that went round and collected everyone.
And if you did drive, are you really going to spend £23-24 per day on petrol, given petrol is at it's lowest price in years?


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## User20205 (May 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If the basic minimum wage is £8.72 and you pay 20% tax, I make that almost £7 ph minus a bit of NI.
What have I missed?
		
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If you get the furlough payment of anywhere near £2500 per month, any additional earnings are added & taxed accordingly. I’m no tax expert, happy to corrected.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2020)

therod said:



			Are you?
		
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No, I am not furloughed.


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## User20205 (May 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, I am not furloughed.
		
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That bit isn’t compulsory. Just thought you’d be up for it, you seem keen to promote this for others


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Could have been worse and used your normal one word twaddle reply.
		
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Nothing you posted actually justified that expression. Just boringly 'more of the same tedious and pointless attempt to mock'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why would we be concerned, it's the Government's job to get the scheme up and running, if they don't they can be held to account.
		
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My concern would simply be that if the government and it's scientific and medical advisors have determined that 18,000 health professional contact tracers (separate from call handlers) need to be recruited by mid-May and trained by end-May - and that level is to support a phased return to school - then the numbers are currently not there.

We heard what the deputy CMO to the MoD said yesterday - it is capability in place that matters and not a date.

If the 18,000 includes call handlers and 7,500 health professionals are what is required then great - job done.  

And my wife can stop worrying about her application.  The application required her to make declarations in respect of her background and provided identity evidence.  I was assuming that giving this up front would enable candidate applicants to be interviewed while any background checks required were being undertaken.  But given she recently did her NMC re-validation I am thinking that information is already there.

Just asking for a little bit of clarity please - and a request that such as Eustice do not use ambiguous phrasing such as '_...in place to *assist *in contact tracing'.  _Precision in language is important in the current environment and is not difficult to give us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

therod said:



			If you get the furlough payment of anywhere near £2500 per month, any additional earnings are added & taxed accordingly. I’m no tax expert, happy to corrected.
		
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That is my understanding.  Furlough payments for the 'employed' are treated as if they were your normal earnings and so will be subject to income tax and NI as normal -  and I assume Tax Code changes or rebates provided in the normal way.  Support for the self-employed will similarly be treated as income, for tax year 2020/21.  I don't know if the support goes directly into declared profit.


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## User20205 (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is my understanding.  Furlough payments for the 'employed' are treated as if they were your normal earnings and so will be subject to income tax and NI as normal -  and I assume Tax Code changes or rebates provided in the normal way.  Support for the self-employed will similarly be treated as income, for tax year 2020/21.  I don't know if the support goes directly into declared profit.
		
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So if you are on the £2500 per month, according to my rudimentary maths, it will be approx 20 hrs at min wage before you get 40% tax on the remainder. That may be a disincentive to some furloughed workers to pick fruit for approx £5 p/hour


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2020)

therod said:



			That bit isn’t compulsory. Just thought you’d be up for it, you seem keen to promote this for others
		
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Unfortunately this is not possible.
Sounds like this new government initiative has fallen on stoney ground rather than the fertile loam they had expected.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Nothing you posted actually justified that expression. Just boringly 'more of the same tedious and pointless attempt to mock'!
		
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Says the self proclaimed guardian of the bracket.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

Our MP getting it the neck today after N Devon traffic was so bad and we became gridlocked nobody can get anywhere with HID staying in work for another hour in the hope that the traffic will ease

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-52742519


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

Government rolling out members of the 2nd Eleven to do the briefings.   Wherefore art thou Johnson, or indeed any of your senior cabinet ministers...I'm sitting watching and listening to someone I've never seen before.  I guess that that's what you get when you restrict ministerial positions to those who will swear fealty on all matters Johnson.  The talent pool of experienced MPs shrinks.  And with Stephen Powis being my least favourite medical expert...not the most inspiring pair - but hey - beggars can't be choosers


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## Hacker Khan (May 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Our MP getting it the neck today after N Devon traffic was so bad and we became gridlocked nobody can get anywhere with HID staying in work for another hour in the hope that the traffic will ease

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-52742519

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To a certain extent what did they expect when you have the government saying people can drive for as long as they want for exercise. Dred to think what will happen on bank holiday if the weather is good.  And what this will do to the R rate in a couple of weeks.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			To a certain extent what did they expect when you have the government saying people can drive for as long as they want for exercise. Dred to think what will happen on bank holiday if the weather is good.  And what this will do to the R rate in a couple of weeks.
		
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Biggest issue was no car parks in major beach areas open. Along with toilets. Police here in Instow alone issued over 30 tickets for illegal parking.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Government rolling out members of the 2nd Eleven to do the briefings.   Wherefore art thou Johnson, or indeed any of your senior cabinet ministers...I'm sitting watching and listening to someone I've never seen before.  I guess that that's what you get when you restrict ministerial positions to those who will swear fealty on all matters Johnson.  The talent pool of experienced MPs shrinks.  And with Stephen Powis being my least favourite medical expert...not the most inspiring pair - but hey - beggars can't be choosers 

Click to expand...

Can you highlight what was wrong with his statement as he is the culture minister and part of the brief was to do with culture issues. I'm sure the professor would be delighted to be associated with your comment of being in the 2nd Eleven.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Government rolling out members of the 2nd Eleven to do the briefings.   Wherefore art thou Johnson, or indeed any of your senior cabinet ministers...I'm sitting watching and listening to someone I've never seen before.  I guess that that's what you get when you restrict ministerial positions to those who will swear fealty on all matters Johnson.  The talent pool of experienced MPs shrinks.  And with Stephen Powis being my least favourite medical expert...not the most inspiring pair - but hey - beggars can't be choosers 

Click to expand...

Maybe you need to lift your head up. I've seen Dowden before. But, as usual, you are posting negatively long before the briefing has finished. You got egg on your face last week for it, and do so today. By all means criticise to the high heavens when you've heard ALL of the briefing, but you just look a tit by criticising it long before its finished.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Can you highlight what was wrong with his statement as he is the culture minister and part of the brief was to do with his brief as culture.
		
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Nothing wrong with it - did I say there was?  

I just hadn't heard of him before and I am not aware that every briefing is now to have a specific ministerial focus - though I suppose that that does mean that Johnson and his coterie don't have to put themselves up there regularly, and looking on the upside maybe we get an alternative view being put...though I doubt it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you need to lift your head up. I've seen Dowden before. But, as usual, you are posting negatively long before the briefing has finished. You got egg on your face last week for it, and do so today. By all means criticise to the high heavens when you've heard ALL of the briefing, but you just look a tit by criticising it long before its finished.
		
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Just hadn't seen him before.  And I am not criticising him or anything he is saying.  I actually think he's OK.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just hadn't seen him before.  And I am not criticising him or anything he is saying.
		
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You DID criticise him, accusing him of swearing fealty.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nothing wrong with it - did I say there was?

I just hadn't heard of him before and I am not aware that every briefing is now to have a specific ministerial focus - though I suppose that that does mean that Johnson and his coterie don't have to put themselves up there regularly, and looking on the upside maybe we get an alternative view being put...though I doubt it.
		
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You accuse the minister and the professor of being in the 2nd team as if that wasn't good enough, I'm just interested in why you feel they aren't good enough to be in the first team and what qualification do you have to decide what team they should be in.


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## chrisd (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just hadn't seen him before.  And I am not criticising him or anything he is saying.  I actually think he's OK.
		
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Your post #2349 is the usual derogatory, anti Boris tripe


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Your post #2349 is the usual derogatory, anti Boris tripe
		
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Your going to attract the wrath of of @Foxholer or maybe teach just directs his twaddle at me.


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## chrisd (May 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your going to attract the wrath of of @Foxholer or maybe teach just directs his twaddle at me.
		
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I might need to leave and come back under another name 😁😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Disappointed to see the government has decided to end the "virtual" parliament that allowed MPs to participate remotely. Clearly there is no way that the entire parliament can safely "social distance" so this move is insanely premature. IMO, it should have been made permanent even post-pandemic to be more family friendly and help MPs with their work/life balance which in the long run could give us a more diverse group of MPs.

Impossible to see any explanation for this decision other than that the PM keeps getting his arse handed to him at PMQs by the new leader of the opposition and needs a bunch of boo-boys backing him up.
		
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We know the argument R-M put forward was simply that with the government asking workers to go back to work where they cannot work from home - the HoC has to take the lead and set an example.  Except of course the government guidelines are that we should only travel to work in the circumstances where it is not possible to work from home - which of course MPs have been doing.  So are they not going to be going against their own guidelines...?  Anyway.

Your suspicion of ulterior motives are just that...suspicions...


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We know the argument R-M put forward was simply that with the government asking workers to go back to work where they cannot work from home - the HoC has to take the lead and set an example.  Except of course the government guidelines are that we should only travel to work in the circumstances where it is not possible to work from home - which of course MPs have been doing.  So are they not going to be going against their own guidelines...?  Anyway.

Your suspicion of ulterior motives are just that...suspicions...

Click to expand...

Do you talk to your MP, do you know how they feel. It will be different for them all with their working from home experience different. Our MP is desperate to get back to London to work, broadband in this area is dire and she regularly looses connection and has missed several votes and the option to talk in debates.

It's not all about being in the chamber so your winking eye is out of order but there again, you have an agenda.


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## SocketRocket (May 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Our MP getting it the neck today after N Devon traffic was so bad and we became gridlocked nobody can get anywhere with HID staying in work for another hour in the hope that the traffic will ease

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-52742519

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I think this unlimited distance for exercise is a bit too generous and open for being abused. Maybe 20 miles would be more realistic.


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## spongebob59 (May 20, 2020)

Herne bay was rammed as was Whitstable, no toilets open so I pity the council workers who will be cleaning it up


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## patricks148 (May 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Disappointed to see the government has decided to end the "virtual" parliament that allowed MPs to participate remotely. Clearly there is no way that the entire parliament can safely "social distance" so this move is insanely premature. IMO, it should have been made permanent even post-pandemic to be more family friendly and help MPs with their work/life balance which in the long run could give us a more diverse group of MPs.

Impossible to see any explanation for this decision other than that the PM keeps getting his arse handed to him at PMQs by the new leader of the opposition and needs a bunch of boo-boys backing him up.
		
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maybe Boris will have Sir Tom on standby then when he gets into trouble he can just wheel him out and everything will be tickety boo


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Disappointed to see the government has decided to end the "virtual" parliament that allowed MPs to participate remotely. Clearly there is no way that the entire parliament can safely "social distance" so this move is insanely premature. IMO, it should have been made permanent even post-pandemic to be more family friendly and help MPs with their work/life balance which in the long run could give us a more diverse group of MPs.

Impossible to see any explanation for this decision other than that the PM keeps getting his arse handed to him at PMQs by the new leader of the opposition and needs a bunch of boo-boys backing him up.
		
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Boo Boys, how polite  best description I heard was Howler Monkeys.
Johnson certainly looks a bit uncomfortable without his backing group.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Herne bay was rammed as was Whitstable, no toilets open so I pity the council workers who will be cleaning it up
		
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At Bournemouth they were sitting on top of each other on the beach but social distancing at the ice cream queue which streatched to Boscombe.


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## Beezerk (May 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Herne bay was rammed as was Whitstable
		
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Strangely it was quiet in Barnsley 🤔


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## funkycoldmedina (May 20, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Strangely it was quiet in Barnsley 🤔
		
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Beach not open?🤣🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Do you talk to your MP, do you know how they feel. It will be different for them all with their working from home experience different. Our MP is desperate to get back to London to work, broadband in this area is dire and she regularly looses connection and has missed several votes and the option to talk in debates.

It's not all about being in the chamber so your winking eye is out of order but there again, you have an agenda.
		
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Do you belief the rationale set out by Rees-Mogg for MPs returning - as I am not clear how MPs cannot work from home.  Maybe not so effectively, but that is not the government guidance.  And does the comparison he makes of MPs with teachers hold up?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

On the beaches today.  So do we start counting the days from today?  Good British Common Sense Prevailing? For too many it seems we got to get past good British selfishness and stupidity to get to the common sense I fear.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

Nice row of tickets


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you belief the rationale set out by Rees-Mogg for MPs returning - as I am not clear how MPs cannot work from home.  Maybe not so effectively, but that is not the government guidance.  And does the comparison he makes of MPs with teachers hold up?
		
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Did you listen, he wasn't on about jamming the chamber full. 

If you have poor broadband working from home is difficult in the modern age, that may have slipped you by.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Herne bay was rammed as was Whitstable, no toilets open so I pity the council workers who will be cleaning it up
		
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Pity the poor innocent people who had their gardens used as toilets according to some news reports. Sad to see so many people on the south coast beaches oblivious to the dangers and social distancing seemed to be a thing of the past. I am afraid this could herald the R number hitting 1 or more and the implications that may have on life, and more importantly the new infections and hospital admissions that may arise


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you belief the rationale set out by Rees-Mogg for MPs returning - as I am not clear how MPs cannot work from home.  Maybe not so effectively, but that is not the government guidance.  And does the comparison he makes of MPs with teachers hold up?
		
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I don't fall for the rational or word of many MP's . Still waiting to hear what professional qualifications you have to suggests the professor and the minister were part of a 2nd Team or was that you being rude about those working with and in the government of the day.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your going to attract the wrath of of @Foxholer or maybe teach just directs his twaddle at me.
		
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No ChrisD has a point - though so does SILH. However, I'd like to know how BoJo is meant to provide 'experienced' ministers when he sacked the rebels (his prerogative) and so only has inexperiences ones - but they gain experience with every briefing. 

As for your infantile personal digs...they really are just a load of twaddle that need to stop! They do, after all, break Forum Rules!


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No ChrisD has a point - though so does SILH. However, I'd like to know how BoJo is meant to provide 'experienced' ministers when he sacked the rebels (his prerogative) and so only has inexperiences ones - but they gain experience with every briefing.

As for your infantile personal digs...they really are just a load of twaddle that need to stop! They do, after all, break Forum Rules!
		
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Pot and Kettle comes to mind, along with your infantile need to correct everyone but if your so certain that I'm breaking any of your rules you know where the report button is.


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## rudebhoy (May 20, 2020)

The daily testing figures are getting more and more surreal.

ITN made a big thing about it tonight, saying no fewer than 177,000 tests were carried out yesterday. I thought that was pretty impressive until I looked at the latest bulletin on gov.uk where the actual number of people tested was listed as 60,744.

For the past few weeks, when testing kits posted out were added in, it used to increase the daily total by 20-30%. Now it's inflating the true number of tests carried out by almost 300%!

If we posted out 117k test kits in a day, then that's good news, but persisting with the line that these are valid inclusions in the total amount of tests carried out is totally absurd.


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## rudebhoy (May 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Disappointed to see the government has decided to end the "virtual" parliament that allowed MPs to participate remotely. Clearly there is no way that the entire parliament can safely "social distance" so this move is insanely premature. IMO, it should have been made permanent even post-pandemic to be more family friendly and help MPs with their work/life balance which in the long run could give us a more diverse group of MPs.

Impossible to see any explanation for this decision other than that the PM keeps getting his arse handed to him at PMQs by the new leader of the opposition and needs a bunch of boo-boys backing him up.
		
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Very cynical, don't you realise there is a Tory MP in Devon with crap wifi


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Very cynical, don't you realise there is a Tory MP in Devon with crap wifi 

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Maybe hes renting a holiday home with rubbish wifi


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## DRW (May 21, 2020)

https://twitter.com/Nordic_News/status/1263029276309413890

I keep wondering why the second waves are not really starting to rip in countries that have re-open parts, without (I think) massive track/test setups. Seems some of those countries are starting to ask the same question. Will go looking tonight for more details, as interested.

Maybe the measures most countries have taken are 'controlling' the virus and its spread.


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## Ross61 (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			ITN made a big thing about it tonight, saying no fewer than 177,000 tests were carried out yesterday. I thought that was pretty impressive until I looked at the latest bulletin on gov.uk where the actual number of people tested was listed as 60,744.

For the past few weeks, when testing kits posted out were added in, it used to increase the daily total by 20-30%. *Now it's inflating the true number of tests carried out by almost 300%!*

Click to expand...

You are quite right about the figure being misleading, but you maths are slightly wrong. It is *Inflated by almost 200%* or almost 3x the number of people tested.


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## drdel (May 21, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			You are quite right about the figure being misleading, but you maths are slightly wrong. It is *Inflated by almost 200%* or almost 3x the number of people tested.
		
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Care to share your calculations?


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			Care to share your calculations?
		
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A 100% increase on 60000 would be 120000. Therefore a 200% increase would be 180k.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The daily testing figures are getting more and more surreal.

ITN made a big thing about it tonight, saying no fewer than 177,000 tests were carried out yesterday. I thought that was pretty impressive until I looked at the latest bulletin on gov.uk where the actual number of people tested was listed as 60,744.

For the past few weeks, when testing kits posted out were added in, it used to increase the daily total by 20-30%. Now it's inflating the true number of tests carried out by almost 300%!

If we posted out 117k test kits in a day, then that's good news, but persisting with the line that these are valid inclusions in the total amount of tests carried out is totally absurd.
		
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just imagine the fabrication when we reach the end of May and we havn't made the 200K people tested Boris quoated at the start of the month?


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## Foxholer (May 21, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			You are quite right about the figure being misleading, but you maths are slightly wrong. It is Inflated by almost 200% *or almost 3x the number* of people tested.
		
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To be precise, there's a 'to' missing - so 'or *to* almost ...' in your correction! Otherwise you've done the same as Rudebhoy!

I can still remember Sir Robt Muldoon (who was NZ's PM and Finance Minister at the time) announcing, proudly as if it was an achuevement and/or it was under control, that 'the rate of increase in inflation is decreasing'!! Oh, and I think it was around 18% at the time!! Unsurprisingly, he lost the next election!


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## drdel (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			just imagine the fabrication when we reach the end of May and we havn't made the 200K people tested Boris quoated at the start of the month?
		
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I'd be willing to bet that nearly all Marketing Departments, Project Developers set targets and timescales that are ambitious. The PM (CEOs) sets the goals they do not personally make the tests, drive the vans or run the labs or develop the software. The people that do are working hard to get there as fast as humanly possible.

Perhaps you'd be happier if we set low goals and achieved them


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'd be willing to bet that nearly all Marketing Departments, Project Developers set targets and timescales that are ambitious. The PM (CEOs) sets the goals they do not personally make the tests, drive the vans or run the labs or develop the software. The people that do are working hard to get there as fast as humanly possible.

Perhaps you'd be happier if we set low goals and achieved them
		
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i would be happier if they were just honest about it, lets face it all through this things have been trotted out that in some cases just don't exist, people would perhaps have more faith in the Gov if its told the truth for once?


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## rudebhoy (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			just imagine the fabrication when we reach the end of May and we havn't made the 200K people tested Boris quoated at the start of the month?
		
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it's all in hand, there is a stockpile of 140,000 testing kits waiting to get sent out on the 1st of June.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I don't share her politics and usually am not a fan but watching her statement and handling questions today it's impossible not to concede that Nicola Sturgeon is very impressive. Lots of questions to answer in the fullness of time but, at first glance, the route forward looks good.
		
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Very capable presentation. What does surprise me though is the tickatape running along the bottom during the BBC broadcast showed that half the deaths in Scotland were from care homes. The government in England got and continues to get (rightly so) slammed for this even though the figures are less.

It does appear the press are giving her an easier ride.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			it's all in hand, there is a stockpile of 140,000 testing kits waiting to get sent out on the 1st of June.
		
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I'm surprised @patricks148 is that concerned as it appears he's living in Scotland where they are trying to solve their own issues as the NHS in Scotland is a Scottish problem.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I'm surprised @patricks148 is that concerned as it appears he's living in Scotland where they are trying to solve their own issues as the NHS in Scotland is a Scottish problem.
		
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They dont have a Tory Government so in his opinion must be better.


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## rudebhoy (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Very capable presentation. What does surprise me though is the tickatape running along the bottom during the BBC broadcast showed that half the deaths in Scotland were from care homes. The government in England got and continues to get (rightly so) slammed for this even though the figures are less.

It does appear the press are giving her an easier ride.
		
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Between 13 March and 8 May, 39,404 people died in *care homes *in England and Wales.


The five-year average number of people who die in care homes during that same period is 17,591, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

This means an extra 21,813 deaths occurred between what the ONS record as week 12 and week 19, a rise of 124%.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...mpared-with-normal-times-is-revealed-11991080

Of course, you can count these figures in a host of different ways, but the above suggests 22k deaths in care homes up to 8th May, either directly or indirectly as a result of the virus.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Between 13 March and 8 May, 39,404 people died in *care homes *in England and Wales.


The five-year average number of people who die in care homes during that same period is 17,591, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

This means an extra 21,813 deaths occurred between what the ONS record as week 12 and week 19, a rise of 124%.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...mpared-with-normal-times-is-revealed-11991080

Of course, you can count these figures in a host of different ways, but the above suggests 22k deaths in care homes up to 8th May, either directly or indirectly as a result of the virus.
		
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I think you'll find it was about care homes in Scotland  and it was just an observation not a comparison or a league table.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They dont have a Tory Government so in his opinion must be better.
		
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To be honest I don't care who or what's in power, but NHS Scotland is the first ministers responsibility


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## spongebob59 (May 21, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263461381279490048


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They dont have a Tory Government so in his opinion must be better.
		
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so i'm not allowed to comment on the UK Gov then?? i do't remember you adhearing to the same sentimants when you want to critisise the SNP, but as usual one rule for you and a diff foranyone else.. 

and no doubt you will be complaining to mods about playing the poster rather than the post again


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			To be honest I don't care who or what's in power, but NHS Scotland is the first ministers responsibility
		
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dead right its a disgrace.. across the whole country, but that what you get when you get Privatisation of care homes and profit ahead of people


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## spongebob59 (May 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yes, the scottish media is very cowed by the SNP. Their attack dogs jump on anything.

I read something that I might be about to slightly misquote but basically the scottish infection rate, testing rate, care home deaths are all worse than England on a per capita basis.
		
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if you search Andrew Neil on Twitter e has the stats


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The big difference (to me) seems to be the promise that test and trace will be in place by the time we ease the lockdown instead of the reckless approach down south.

Of course, they need to deliver on that.
		
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But will Scotland (hopefully) be running of the back of down souths system or is more money being wasted on yet another system.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'd be willing to bet that nearly all Marketing Departments, Project Developers set targets and timescales that are ambitious. The PM (CEOs) sets the goals they do not personally make the tests, drive the vans or run the labs or develop the software. The people that do are working hard to get there as fast as humanly possible.

Perhaps you'd be happier if we set low goals and achieved them
		
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I would rather they presented honest numbers than their interpretations of what the numbers are/were.
Everyone recognises them as a con and it only adds to the below base line credibility that this government was elected on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yes, the scottish media is very cowed by the SNP. Their attack dogs jump on anything.

I read something that I might be about to slightly misquote but basically the scottish infection rate, testing rate, care home deaths are all worse than England on a per capita basis.
		
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The specific nature of how the Scottish population is distributed across the country could have something to do with the community infection aspects of that - with the vast majority of the population being concentrated in a quite small area across the Central Belt.   The care home issue is a worry - as it is all over the country.


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## pendodave (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			dead right its a disgrace.. across the whole country, but that what you get when you get Privatisation of care homes and profit ahead of people
		
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Given that the NHS in Scotland is the SNP's responsibility (and I'm guessing they have at least some responsibility for overseeing the care home industry), how does the "NS is so statespersonlike" narrative square with this?
My impression (which is just that, hence my curiosity) is that no-one in Scotland seems to hold them to account on these issues. Or maybe it's that the UK media based in England doesn't see fit to perform any in-depth journalism on the subject, so we don't get to see it down here.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Given that the NHS in Scotland is the SNP's responsibility (and I'm guessing they have at least some responsibility for overseeing the care home industry), how does the "NS is so statespersonlike" narrative square with this?
My impression (which is just that, hence my curiosity) is that no-one in Scotland seems to hold them to account on these issues. Or maybe it's that the UK media based in England doesn't see fit to perform any in-depth journalism on the subject, so we don't get to see it down here.
		
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of course they have been just a poor as the UK gov IMO, but i don't think the Privatisation of Care homes can be layed at the SNP door, happend long before Dev, or the SNP. 
i do have some simpathy with the Gov as many are private companies, but just shows what happens when you privatise health
i would love the care homes to be taken back under the NHS, we should be looking after our old, not shoving them in these terrible places. FYI we have had 3 shut down in Sneck due to how poorly they were run all private


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			of course they have been just a poor as the UK gov IMO, but i don't think the Privatisation of Care homes can be layed at the SNP door, happend long before Dev, or the SNP.
i do have some simpathy with the Gov as many are private companies, but just shows what happens when you privatise health
i would love the care homes to be taken back under the NHS, we should be looking after our old, not shoving them in these terrible places. FYI we have had 3 shut down in Sneck due to how poorly they were run all private

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Were they ever under the NHS?


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## Swinglowandslow (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Were they ever under the NHS?
		
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No, I don't think they were, but a lot of them were Council run until most were sold off to be privately run.
I hope that whatever comes out if this virus thing, it is that care homes should come under the NHS. If the Care home businesses don't like it, then tough!
Sick Old folk's health and survival should not be left to a profit making business.


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## spongebob59 (May 21, 2020)

Sounds like there s a cover up scandal up north of the border, something to do with a Nike conference in Jan.


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## Foxholer (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			dead right its a disgrace.. across the whole country, but that what you get when you get Privatisation of care homes and profit ahead of people
		
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Privatisation doesn't necessarily mean a reduction in standards. There does have to be an incentive (for profit) though. Penalties for 'lack of care' could well be the incentive that lazy companies and inspectors need to get the balance right!


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## Foxholer (May 21, 2020)

Common sense finally gets through!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52761052


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Sounds like there s a cover up scandal up north of the border, something to do with a Nike conference in Jan.
		
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i'm just suprised you didn't post Guido Fawks or some other right wing blogger on twitter take in this first, thats what you normally do?


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Were they ever under the NHS?
		
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where did i say they were?


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			of course they have been just a poor as the UK gov IMO, but i don't think the Privatisation of Care homes can be layed at the SNP door, happend long before Dev, or the SNP.
i do have some simpathy with the Gov as many are private companies, but just shows what happens when you privatise health
*i would love the care homes to be taken back under the NHS*, we should be looking after our old, not shoving them in these terrible places. FYI we have had 3 shut down in Sneck due to how poorly they were run all private

Click to expand...




patricks148 said:



			where did i say they were?
		
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I would assume that "taken back under the NHS" gave the impression that they were previously under the NHS. Although I read it as taken back and brought under the NHS.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, I don't think they were, but a lot of them were Council run until most were sold off to be privately run.
I hope that whatever comes out if this virus thing, it is that care homes should come under the NHS. If the Care home businesses don't like it, then tough!
Sick Old folk's health and survival should not be left to a profit making business.
		
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What about not for profit businesses. I believe BUPA ran a number of care homes on a not for profit basis.  I'm not fully convinced the NHS would want to take over the running of care homes and I cant see how it's possible to stop someone running a private home, if someone has the money to pay for an exclusive service then surely they can, just like private health.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			where did i say they were?
		
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You said they should be brought back into the NHS, they have never been nationalised.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What about not for profit businesses. I believe BUPA ran a number of care homes on a not for profit basis.  I'm not fully convinced the NHS would want to take over the running of care homes and I cant see how it's possible to stop someone running a private home, if someone has the money to pay for an exclusive service then surely they can, just like private health.
		
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Easy. You pass a law preventing such a business operating. Such limiting -of -practice laws were commonplace some years back, and some still are.
You cannot practice law as a solicitor except where permitted. Used to be the same with opticians. Some things you just cannot set up to 'practice as'.
Running a care home would be one.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Easy. You pass a law preventing such a business operating. Such limiting -of -practice laws were commonplace some years back, and some still are.
You cannot practice law as a solicitor except where permitted. Used to be the same with opticians. Some things you just cannot set up to 'practice as'.
Running a care home would be one.
		
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Surely those cases you mention are  controlled by their official institutes or professional bodies, they're not nationalised. A care home is a business so is not the same, you would have to Nationalise the industry, the Government would have to make a compulsary order to buy the shares of every company and employ all the staff directly.  They would then have to create all the infastructure to manage and run them.  Sounds like a massive undertaking to me.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Easy. You pass a law preventing such a business operating. Such limiting -of -practice laws were commonplace some years back, and some still are.
You cannot practice law as a solicitor except where permitted. Used to be the same with opticians. Some things you just cannot set up to 'practice as'.
Running a care home would be one.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Surely those cases you mention are  controlled by their official institutes or professional bodies, they're not nationalised. A care home is a business so is not the same, you would have to Nationalise the industry, the Government would have to make a compulsary order to buy the shares of every company and employ all the staff directly.  They would then have to create all the infastructure to manage and run them.  Sounds like a massive undertaking to me.
		
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There is the Care Act(2000) on the statute books which regulates standards and licencing. So what's needed to improve things? I don't know.

Could they be nationalised, and what about infrastructure? Yes they could be nationalised, and TUPE'ing the staff across would cover staffing needs to certain extent. There is already the regulations, and inspectors. Quite whether there's enough or not, I don't know. But, as in all things, is nationalisation affordable? Its affordable if its a priority.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

I don't think it is as cut and dried as some would like to think. We have looked at a few care homes before this all kicked off. The nearest council run home would be last on our list, by quite some way. Number one choice would be a purpose built, dementia specialist home. That home would never have been built by a council, not to the spec it has been built to. 

The private sector care homes may need better regulation but without their investment and drive the sector would be a poorer place. They innovate far more than council run homes, they have to to attract residents.


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## rudebhoy (May 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think it is as cut and dried as some would like to think. We have looked at a few care homes before this all kicked off. The nearest council run home would be last on our list, by quite some way. Number one choice would be a purpose built, dementia specialist home. That home would never have been built by a council, not to the spec it has been built to.

The private sector care homes may need better regulation but without their investment and drive the sector would be a poorer place. They innovate far more than council run homes, they have to to attract residents.
		
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Councils have sold off most of their care homes. Like council housing, the ones they are left with are the ones no-one wants to buy. 85% of care home beds are privately owned.

I get what you are saying about investment etc, but that is far from true for a lot of privately run homes. There are massive differences in the quality of care provided, some of the homes I looked at for my dad were appalling, and they were privately owned.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Councils have sold off most of their care homes. Like council housing, the ones they are left with are the ones no-one wants to buy. 85% of care home beds are privately owned.

I get what you are saying about investment etc, but that is far from true for a lot of privately run homes. There are massive differences in the quality of care provided, some of the homes I looked at for my dad were appalling, and they were privately owned.
		
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Completely agree with all of your post and the points you are making. By no means do I mean that private care across the board are the solution. As you say, the standard is very mixed indeed and that is very sad and also unacceptable. What the good private homes will do is provide a far better level of facility than any council run home I have seen. Years of under investment in council run ones have led to that and I see no indication that will change going forward. We need to encourage the good and do more to raise the standard of the bad and below average.


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Completely agree with all of your post and the points you are making. By no means do I mean that private care across the board are the solution. As you say, the standard is very mixed indeed and that is very sad and also unacceptable. What the good private homes will do is provide a far better level of facility than any council run home I have seen. Years of under investment in council run ones have led to that and I see no indication that will change going forward. We need to encourage the good and do more to raise the standard of the bad and below average.
		
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When I was looking at care homes for my Mother around ten years ago the council ones were privately owned with places funded through social services.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			When I was looking at care homes for my Mother around ten years ago the council ones were privately owned with places funded through social services.
		
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A lot are still similar, they may all be, it is not my area of expertise. It is the same with 'council houses'. Private companies build them and run them, the council hands over the money to the company.


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A lot are still similar, they may all be, it is not my area of expertise. It is the same with 'council houses'. Private companies build them and run them, the council hands over the money to the company.
		
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Yes, housing associations, I believe they are not for profit organisations.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, housing associations, I believe they are not for profit organisations.
		
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Having seen the number of staff and offices of a few of these, the meetings tour around, they may be not for profit but they are doing okay. There is a lot of money sloshing around in this field.


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## rudebhoy (May 22, 2020)

Reports that Cummings has been caught breaking the lock down rules, this could be interesting!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 22, 2020)

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ominic-cummings-broke-lockdown-rules-11993051  Seems a very silly thing to do


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## Hacker Khan (May 22, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Reports that Cummings has been caught breaking the lock down rules, this could be interesting!
		
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Haven't people had to resign for this kind of thing?


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Haven't people had to resign for this kind of thing?
		
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If it turns out to be true then he either has to resign or be fired. I'm sure that Boris will try to front it out, at least initially, but I can't see how he can possibly keep his job if he's done this.


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## rudebhoy (May 22, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ominic-cummings-broke-lockdown-rules-11993051  Seems a very silly thing to do
		
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Pulled by coppers for driving to Durham when he was supposed to be self isolating. Then did it again the next week. Unbelievable but will be brushed under the carpet.


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It was weeks ago, he already has kept his job.
		
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Will be interesting if that is still the case now that it's in the public domain.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It was weeks ago, he already has kept his job.
		
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Has to go but why has it just come out I wonder. The knives are out and back to yar boo bad politics.


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Has to go but why has it just come out I wonder. The knives are out and back to yar boo bad politics.
		
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Would be interesting to know the source that brought this information out into the open. A Tory with an axe to grind with Boris?


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would be interesting to know the source that brought this information out into the open. A Tory with an axe to grind with Boris?
		
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Not popular amongst the rank and file I suspect.


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## rudebhoy (May 22, 2020)

If he had any decency, he'd resign immediately. 

He won't.


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2020)

Isnt there another thread for this type of thing.

EDIT:
Oh! Its already been posted on there.


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## rudebhoy (May 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Isnt there another thread for this type of thing.

EDIT:
Oh! Its already been posted on there.
		
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A cynic might think you are desperately trying to close this discussion down on here 😀


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2020)

Twice, seemingly, same situation as the former Scottish CMO but 2x300 mile trips instead of 2x65 mile ones.
Now remind me who on here was screaming for her to resign.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Not the same situation at all. She didn't have covid-19.
		
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That's true.


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## DanFST (May 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Twice, seemingly, same situation as the former Scottish CMO but 2x300 mile trips instead of 2x65 mile ones.
Now remind me who on here was screaming for her to resign.

Click to expand...

I was. 

It's binary, distance doesn't make it better or worse. Ghandi could have travelled one mile further than he was allowed. Should be punished the same as these two inconsiderate ..........


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Not the same situation at all. She didn't have covid-19.
		
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At the time how did she know? She could've had it and been asymptomatic. 

This is in no way meant to excuse Cummings at all, he's an entitled idiot and should resign. If he won't resign then he should be sacked, or he should have been sacked whenever this was first discovered, before it became public knowledge. What sort of absolute moron thinks that it's a good idea to go and visit their parents while suffering from symptoms of Covid19? Cummings is 48 so it's not unreasonable to think that his parents, if not actually in the over 70 at risk group are very close to it. So not only did he break lock down rules by travelling he also put two potentially vulnerable people at risk. The government are already trying to brush this off by saying that he didn't break the rules - "his trip was within guidelines as Cummings went to stay with his parents so they could help with childcare while he and his wife were ill - they insist no breach of lockdown". Despite the fact that in a speech on 18th March Boris Johnson said "children should not be left with older grandparents, or older relatives, who may be particularly vulnerable or fall into some of the vulnerable groups". I don't see that there is any option other than for him to go, one way or the other.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A cynic might think you are desperately trying to close this discussion down on here 😀
		
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Just cant see the point of discussing it here and on another thread already made for it.
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...ye-resign-for-breaking-lockdown-rules.105066/


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## User62651 (May 23, 2020)

Surprised this info got out now, why's it taken so long as neighbours in Durham clocked him weeks ago?. Seems also like the deputy cmo Harries 'advice' that is the only real defence for Cummings actions only came out after Cummings lockdown breaches, not before, smells like a cover up attempt. His Mrs published articles about their covid illnesses with no mention of Durham. 
The sage fellow Ferguson and the Scottish CMO woman both resigned under intense pressure for less, you have to think it very hard for him to survive this as a policy maker. Will be many Tory victims of Cummings happy to get rid you'd think as well as opposition parties and media pressuring. There must be disquiet in Conservative circles with how things are going. 

Never a dull day in politics.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			At the time how did she know? She could've had it and been asymptomatic.

This is in no way meant to excuse Cummings at all, he's an entitled idiot and should resign. If he won't resign then he should be sacked, or he should have been sacked whenever this was first discovered, before it became public knowledge. What sort of absolute moron thinks that it's a good idea to go and visit their parents while suffering from symptoms of Covid19? Cummings is 48 so it's not unreasonable to think that his parents, if not actually in the over 70 at risk group are very close to it. So not only did he break lock down rules by travelling he also put two potentially vulnerable people at risk. The government are already trying to brush this off by saying that he didn't break the rules - "his trip was within guidelines as Cummings went to stay with his parents so they could help with childcare while he and his wife were ill - they insist no breach of lockdown". Despite the fact that in a speech on 18th March Boris Johnson said "children should not be left with older grandparents, or older relatives, who may be particularly vulnerable or fall into some of the vulnerable groups". I don't see that there is any option other than for him to go, one way or the other.
		
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His parents are in their 70s.

The "exceptional circumstances guidelines" which Number 10 is trying to claim Cummings was following were never actually issued, it was merely an off the cuff remark made by Dr Jenny Harries 2 weeks after Cummings had travelled to Durham. The government "advice" was that children should not be left with elderly grandparents.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Seems like a pivotal moment for the government's credibility.
		
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They have credibility??


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Glossing over the whys and wherefores of him breaking lock down, anyone else slightly perturbed that one of the most influential people in the UK, if not the most influential if some reports are to be believed, was knowingly willing to risk giving his parents Covid? 

Personally I've not seen my parents since the lock down began as I want to keep them as safe as possible. And as far as I know I'm Covid free. So can't imagine sending my daughter to stay with them if I got it.


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## larmen (May 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can we drive up to chesterfield next week for my mother in laws 90th birthday and join her in her local park observing the necessary 2m physical separation?
		
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I know it is too late now, but updated information seem to say you can if you are displaying symptoms and hiding in her spare bedroom.


I really just want to see now how those that called you out are trying to defend Cummings.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2020)

Scots Tories are very tired this morning, they have been up all night on twitter desperately deleting anything with the word Calderwood in it.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

It is not open to question is it? He has to go. There needs to be consistency with this, others have had to go, rightly, and he needs to follow them. 

Neither he nor the other idiots who have been caught have a leg to stand on.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Glossing over the whys and wherefores of him breaking lock down, anyone else slightly perturbed that one of the most influential people in the UK, if not the most influential if some reports are to be believed, was knowingly willing to risk giving his parents Covid?

Personally I've not seen my parents since the lock down began as I want to keep them as safe as possible. And as far as I know I'm Covid free. So can't imagine sending my daughter to stay with them if I got it.
		
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It really was a staggeringly bad piece of judgement. Am surprised his parents didn't tell him not to be so stupid when he told them his plan.

Interesting that both him and his wife wrote articles about his illness and never mentioned where they had gone. Indeed, her article implied they had been in London writing "After the uncertainty of the bug itself, we emerged from quarantine into almost comical uncertainty of London lockdown.”

Will be interested to hear Hancock's reaction. It was him who said he was "speechless" about Prof Ferguson breaching the lockdown and said he had done the right thing by resigning.


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## Wolf (May 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is not open to question is it? He has to go. There needs to be consistency with this, others have had to go, rightly, and he needs to follow them.



Neither he nor the other idiots who have been caught have a leg to stand on.
		
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Exactly this ^^^

Cummings has to go whether through resignation or given the boot by Boris end of. He has no defence for breaking the rules on a)lockdown & b) not leaving a child with people in an at risk age group which was also not supposed to happen. 

I fail to see how any Tory MP, supporter or voter could possibly defend it or be willing to accept, because if he doesn't go it would show they're willing to accept the double standards.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2020)

It will be interesting to see who heads up the UK Government briefing today.
My money is on the secretary/treasurer of the East Cheam Conservative club.


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## huds1475 (May 23, 2020)

I'd be interested to know how many of those slating Cummings, or any other of the 'lockdown transgressors', over the last few pages are morally beyond reproach.

What gives you the right to judge other people, without recourse to all the facts, and to call for them to lose their jobs?

The public position argument doesn't wash. 

Have you never made a mistake / error / bent rules?
Do you know ALL the facts about each case?
What gives you the authority to judge?

Interested to hear everyones moral credentials. 

Does anyone look at themselves first before calling out others?


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Exactly this ^^^

Cummings has to go whether through resignation or given the boot by Boris end of. He has no defence for breaking the rules on a)lockdown & b) not leaving a child with people in an at risk age group which was also not supposed to happen.

I fail to see how any Tory MP, supporter or voter could possibly defend it or be willing to accept, because if he doesn't go it would show they're willing to accept the double standards.
		
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It's a nightmare for Boris. Either he sacks his main man, or he will be seen as a total hypocrite.

My prediction is he goes, but is back in post within the year. Williamson and Patel were both sacked for lying, that would normally be career-ending but both were welcomed back after a short stint on the naughty step.


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## Jimaroid (May 23, 2020)

I was vehemently against Calderwood resigning, no need or desire to drag that out again just making my position clear, so what happens next is going to be fascinating. The difference between Calderwood's error and Cummings' is huge - what with him actually being infected.

"Infected covidiot travels 264 miles to visit elderly parents"

That headline we didn't see.

Astonishing. This is a monumental moment in British politics. This is a Watergate, a Profumo, a Westland, a Mandelson, a Cash For Questions ...


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I'd be interested to know how many of those slating Cummings, or any other of the 'lockdown transgressors', over the last few pages are morally beyond reproach.

What gives you the right to judge other people, without recourse to all the facts, and to call for them to lose their jobs?

The public position argument doesn't wash.

Have you never made a mistake / error / bent rules?
Do you know ALL the facts about each case?
What gives you the authority to judge?

Interested to hear everyones moral credentials.

Does anyone look at themselves first before calling out others?
		
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On this subject he is part of the govt setting out the rules and guidelines. If he breaks them then how can those rules stand up and have credibility? What he has done is pure hypocrisy and he has to go.

In terms of resigning issues it really depends on each case. In this instance you can't have govt ministers stood at press conferences telling people what they can not do when one of their own key people has so blatantly broken those rules. He has become the story, that can not happen in govt and he will be very aware of that.

At the level these people are at it is very GoT. There are rules to the game, they know the rules. They are not in a normal job.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 23, 2020)

I do not know the full details of the" arrangements " Cummings made for the looking after of his children when he and wife got Covid. A report I read mentioned a sister who may have been asked to look after the children?
Whatever.....
If he and wife and children in the same vehicle drove to Durham after lockdown- that's wrong. Breaks the "rules".
Did he really take his children to be looked after by his parents?
When he had got Covid?
That is incredible, who the hell would do that to their parents?

Why could not the sister come to London to pick up the kids to take them to her home and look after them .
Why involve the grandparents at all.?
I mean, this brings into the limelight this question of whether children can pass on the virus or not?  Even from a Covid ridden environment? 
I would have thought it very likely they could/would. Of all the questions arising from this situation, this is also a question that needs clarification


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I'd be interested to know how many of those slating Cummings, or any other of the 'lockdown transgressors', over the last few pages are morally beyond reproach.

What gives you the right to judge other people, without recourse to all the facts, and to call for them to lose their jobs?

The public position argument doesn't wash.

Have you never made a mistake / error / bent rules?
Do you know ALL the facts about each case?
What gives you the authority to judge?

Interested to hear everyones moral credentials.

Does anyone look at themselves first before calling out others?
		
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Deflect, deflect, deflect...........36,000 dead and rising! He’s involved in discussions/strategies/policies all around this pandemic.

Is there no lengths some will go to to protect these people.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Deflect, deflect, deflect...........36,000 dead and rising! He’s involved in discussions/strategies/policies all around this pandemic.

Is there no lengths some will go to to protect these people.
		
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Wonder what Guido Fawks is saying about it??


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## DanFST (May 23, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I'd be interested to know how many of those slating Cummings, or any other of the 'lockdown transgressors', over the last few pages are morally beyond reproach.

What gives you the right to judge other people, without recourse to all the facts, and to call for them to lose their jobs?

The public position argument doesn't wash.

Have you never made a mistake / error / bent rules?
Do you know ALL the facts about each case?
What gives you the authority to judge?

Interested to hear everyones moral credentials.

Does anyone look at themselves first before calling out others?
		
Click to expand...

Yep, 

Haven’t broken a single lockdown rule intentionally or as far as I’m aware unintentionally. 

Rules are rules.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I'd be interested to know how many of those slating Cummings, or any other of the 'lockdown transgressors', over the last few pages are morally beyond reproach.

What gives you the right to judge other people, without recourse to all the facts, and to call for them to lose their jobs?

The public position argument doesn't wash.

Have you never made a mistake / error / bent rules?
Do you know ALL the facts about each case?
What gives you the authority to judge?

Interested to hear everyones moral credentials.

Does anyone look at themselves first before calling out others?
		
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so anyone who hasn't driven 250 miles while infected and visited elderly relatives can then?


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## DanFST (May 23, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			The difference between Calderwood's error and Cummings' is huge - what with him actually being infected.
		
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There is no difference. Both have broken the same law. There is no subjectivity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			I know it is too late now, but updated information seem to say you can if you are displaying symptoms and hiding in her spare bedroom.


I really just want to see now how those that called you out are trying to defend Cummings.
		
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You might not be that surprised that this news has been received with incredulity, more than anger in fact, by my wife - but her anger grows as she starts to hear some make excuses for their actions, and in expectation of a series of apologists in government doing the same.  She thinks Johnson should front the briefing today and state whether he knew of this and what he is going to do as Cummings is accountable to Johnson and Johnson alone.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Deflect, deflect, deflect...........36,000 dead and rising! He’s involved in discussions/strategies/policies all around this pandemic.

Is there no lengths some will go to to protect these people.
		
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There are a number of people making accusations of posters defending him, I've not read any such posts, one person has suggested it's best to have recourse to all the facts before condemning. What's wrong with that!

Cummings may well have broken the rules but let's put the pitchforks away and see what transpires.


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## Jimaroid (May 23, 2020)

DanFST said:



			There is no difference. Both have broken the same law. There is no subjectivity.
		
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Calderwood travelled against guidance to stay at home.
Ferguson flouted physical distancing guidelines with his mistress.
Cummings has travelled, flouted physical distancing AND not isolated under infection. 

In the league table of breaking clauses in government guidance, there is an objective victor here.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

How this will play out.......Tory HQ will throw some weak excuse as to why it was the only course of action, supporters will jump on the back of that, not give 2 hoots about he it looks to the rest of the population and DC will stay in position.
Spin spin spin from the spin doctor in chief.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There are a number of people making accusations of posters defending him, I've not read any such posts, one person has suggested it's best to have recourse to all the facts before condemning. What's wrong with that!

Cummings may well have broken the rules but let's put the pitchforks away and see what transpires.
		
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Let’s not, let’s do what we did over any smear or headline that comes out over a non-tory and have them found guilty without any facts.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...isolation-wife-young-son-ill-coronavirus.html

The door swings both ways.


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## Jimaroid (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Cummings may well have broken the rules but let's put the pitchforks away and see what transpires.
		
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Shoe's on the other foot now is it?


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

BREAKING

*Coronavirus: PM says it was 'reasonable' for Cummings to travel 260 miles during lockdown*

Number 10 issued the following statement: "Owing to his wife being infected with suspected coronavirus and the high likelihood that he would himself become unwell, it was essential for Dominic Cummings to ensure his young child could be properly cared for.

"His sister and nieces had volunteered to help so he went to a house near to but separate from his extended family in case their help was needed. His sister shopped for the family and left everything outside. At no stage was he or his family spoken to by the police about this matter, as is being reported. His actions were in line with coronavirus guidelines. Mr Cummings believes he behaved reasonably and legally."


- that is an absolute disgrace, but sadly not a surprise.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Let’s not, let’s do what we did over any smear or headline that comes out over a non-tory and have them found guilty without any facts.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...isolation-wife-young-son-ill-coronavirus.html

The door swings both ways.
		
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Two wrongs dont make a right, do they?   

It's nothing to do with party politics, if he broke the rules he should face the consequences.


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## DanFST (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			BREAKING

*Coronavirus: PM says it was 'reasonable' for Cummings to travel 260 miles during lockdown*

Number 10 issued the following statement: "Owing to his wife being infected with suspected coronavirus and the high likelihood that he would himself become unwell, it was essential for Dominic Cummings to ensure his young child could be properly cared for.

"His sister and nieces had volunteered to help so he went to a house near to but separate from his extended family in case their help was needed. His sister shopped for the family and left everything outside. At no stage was he or his family spoken to by the police about this matter, as is being reported. His actions were in line with coronavirus guidelines. Mr Cummings believes he behaved reasonably and legally."


- that is an absolute disgrace, but sadly not a surprise.
		
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Got a source? Shameful if true.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Got a source? Shameful if true.
		
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https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ominic-cummings-broke-lockdown-rules-11993051


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Shoe's on the other foot now is it?
		
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And what foot is that then. If that accusation is against me then show some proof where I have supported anyone breaking the Covid rules or take it back.


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## Jimaroid (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And what foot is that then. If that accusation is against me then show some proof where I have supported anyone breaking the Covid rules or take it back.
		
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You know full well what it means and I will not retract a single word of it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Two wrongs dont make a right, do they?  

It's nothing to do with party politics, if he broke the rules he should face the consequences.
		
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And you’ve never reacted on here unless you were fully aware of all the facts? 

Just the other day you virtually wanted us to go to war with France over the behaviour of the French Navy, which incidentally turned out they were correct and incidentally, you never acknowledged! 

Make sure that door doesn’t hit you too hard on your backside on the way out.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ominic-cummings-broke-lockdown-rules-11993051

Click to expand...

another example of the hypocrisy of this Gov.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			another example of the hypocrisy of this Gov.
		
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It contradicts the article his wife did for the Spectator magazine and published by the DM.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...isolation-wife-young-son-ill-coronavirus.html

Somebody is being economical with the truth.


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## DanFST (May 23, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			You know full well what it means and I will not retract a single word of it.
		
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Reasonable....











To take it back to logical and intelligent debate, there is nothing here that can defend Mr Cummings..


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## Jimaroid (May 23, 2020)

Absolutely stunning response from No.10.

So the only person in the UK who's allowed to travel for essential childcare just so happens to work in Downing Street. What were the chances of that?


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			another example of the hypocrisy of this Gov.
		
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It's also a massive political mistake, Johnson will lose a lot of support over this.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It contradicts the article his wife did for the Spectator magazine and published by the DM.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...isolation-wife-young-son-ill-coronavirus.html

Somebody is being economical with the truth.
		
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at least they are consistant Paul.... they lie about everything


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			at least they are consistant Paul.... they lie about everything

Click to expand...

Number 10 say the police never spoke to Cummings, Durham Constabulary issued a statement last night saying they had.

Who do you believe?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			at least they are consistant Paul.... they lie about everything

Click to expand...

That was published a month ago and surely if the DM had jumped to conclusions she should of put them right or the editor of the spectator should be asking her why she’s writing rubbish for them?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			And you’ve never reacted on here unless you were fully aware of all the facts? 

Just the other day you virtually wanted us to go to war with France over the behaviour of the French Navy, which incidentally turned out they were correct and incidentally, you never acknowledged! 

Make sure that door doesn’t hit you too hard on your backside on the way out.

Click to expand...

I've said he should face the consequences if hes broke the rules, what's wrong with that? 

Go to war with France! stop exaggerating what I say.  I explained quite clearly that Naval ships could send boarding parties to any vessel in their waters if they believe them to be suspicious or in danger, they can take off or arrest the occupants and return them to shore for investigation.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

I find it hard to be objective on the Cummings situation but I try to put myself in that position.

He is undoubtedly a 'marmite' character although reports I've read from people who work with him speak highly; but there may be others who keep quiet.

He lives in a flat in London with his family on a farm up't North. Just supposing they could not 'isolate' from each other or felt too unwell to look after each other or buy food etc: due to space and as a family they ALL felt the best option was to have the kid(s) at the farm where isolation was much more safe and feasible.

The Government issued *advice* that recommended avoiding all *but essential travel*. Just perhaps, given their situation, the family felt it was essential under the circumstances they faced.

Possible he should not have done what he did. Thankfully I'm not faced with the same dilemma: so without the facts I'll hold off judgement and joining the lynching band.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Number 10 say the police never spoke to Cummings, Durham Constabulary issued a statement last night saying they had.

Who do you believe?
		
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Politicians or police?

Could be "None of the above!"


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I find it hard to be objective on the Cummings situation but I try to put myself in that position.

He is undoubtedly a 'marmite' character although reports I've read from people who work with him speak highly; but there may be others who keep quiet.

He lives in a flat in London with his family on a farm up't North. Just supposing they could not 'isolate' from each other or felt too unwell to look after each other or buy food etc: due to space and as a family they ALL felt the best option was to have the kid(s) at the farm where isolation was much more safe and feasible.

The Government issued *advice* that recommended avoiding all *but essential travel*. Just perhaps, given their situation, the family felt it was essential under the circumstances they faced.

Possible he should not have done what he did. Thankfully I'm not faced with the same dilemma: so without the facts I'll hold off judgement and joining the lynching band.
		
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They live in a flat in London, not him in his own!


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I find it hard to be objective on the Cummings situation but I try to put myself in that position.

He is undoubtedly a 'marmite' character although reports I've read from people who work with him speak highly; but there may be others who keep quiet.

He lives in a flat in London with his family on a farm up't North. Just supposing they could not 'isolate' from each other or felt too unwell to look after each other or buy food etc: due to space and as a family they ALL felt the best option was to have the kid(s) at the farm where isolation was much more safe and feasible.

The Government issued *advice* that recommended avoiding all *but essential travel*. Just perhaps, given their situation, the family felt it was essential under the circumstances they faced.

Possible he should not have done what he did. Thankfully I'm not faced with the same dilemma: so without the facts I'll hold off judgement and joining the lynching band.
		
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Cummings lives in a £1.6 million townhouse in leafy Islington. Shortly after moving in 2013, Cummings got an extension designed by high-end architects Hamish & Lyons that features a “tapestry room”, along with a “formal living room” and reading room.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I find it hard to be objective on the Cummings situation but I try to put myself in that position.

He is undoubtedly a 'marmite' character although reports I've read from people who work with him speak highly; but there may be others who keep quiet.

He lives in a flat in London with his family on a farm up't North. Just supposing they could not 'isolate' from each other or felt too unwell to look after each other or buy food etc: due to space and as a family they ALL felt the best option was to have the kid(s) at the farm where isolation was much more safe and feasible.

The Government issued *advice* that recommended avoiding all *but essential travel*. Just perhaps, given their situation, the family felt it was essential under the circumstances they faced.

Possible he should not have done what he did. Thankfully I'm not faced with the same dilemma: so without the facts I'll hold off judgement and joining the lynching band.
		
Click to expand...

well you haven't disappointed then... theres no excused for what he did, others that have done less resigned.. typical tory hypocrisy


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Cummings lives in a £1.6 million townhouse in leafy Islington. Shortly after moving in 2013, Cummings got an extension designed by high-end architects Hamish & Lyons that features a “tapestry room”, along with a “formal living room” and reading room.
		
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Definitely a flat then.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Number 10 say the police never spoke to Cummings, Durham Constabulary issued a statement last night saying they had.

Who do you believe?
		
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i think Boris has missed a trick here, he could have easily used the no 10 cat as a scapegoat... sorted


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

I see the Forum Kangaroo Court has convened, decided and judged: no need to wait for any facts and let's shoot anyone whose just might even *hint* at disaggreement.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That needs to be a question at today’s briefing. Who’s lying?
		
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it will be interesting to see who they put up for this, it will be very painful viewing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the Forum Kangaroo Court has convened, decided and judged: no need to wait for any facts and let's shoot anyone whose just might even *hint* at disaggreement.
		
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Need a hug?


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the Forum Kangaroo Court has convened, decided and judged: no need to wait for any facts and let's shoot anyone whose just might even *hint* at disaggreement.
		
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the fact that Cummings and his wife travelled 260-odd miles knowing they had the virus is not in dispute.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the Forum Kangaroo Court has convened, decided and judged: no need to wait for any facts and let's shoot anyone whose just might even *hint* at disaggreement.
		
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funny you were OK with it when the shoe was on the other foot, i stand by my last reply


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			the fact that Cummings and his wife travelled 260-odd miles knowing they had the virus is not in dispute.
		
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Nowhere did I say he did not!  Hang the beggar


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## AmandaJR (May 23, 2020)

It's simple - if he's broken lockdown rules he has to go and if he won't he has to be forced to go. End of.


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## larmen (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's also a massive political mistake, Johnson will lose a lot of support over this.
		
Click to expand...

Not from his followers. Like Trump.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Nowhere did I say he did not!  Hang the beggar

Click to expand...

surely the fact he made that journey when loaded with the virus is enough to condemn him.

it really makes my blood boil when people weren't allowed into hospital to see their dying relatives, most of us were unable to see our parents for months, yet this entitled piece of trash thinks it's ok for him to drive 260 miles to his parents house, potentially spreading the virus as he went. wonder if he stopped for petrol on the way?


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Deflect, deflect, deflect...........36,000 dead and rising! He’s involved in discussions/strategies/policies all around this pandemic.

Is there no lengths some will go to to protect these people.
		
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Absolutely no deflection from me, he goes. But can you also add Stephen Kinnock, Labour MP, to the must go list. The fool travelled to his father's 78th birthday bash and then, even more foolishly, posted photo's of himself there.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			it will be interesting to see who they put up for this, it will be very painful viewing.
		
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i knew that cat would come in at some point


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely no deflection from me, he goes. But can you also add Stephen Kinnock, Labour MP, to the must go list. The fool travelled to his father's 78th birthday bash and then, even more foolishly, posted photo's of himself there.
		
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absolutely. same with Jenrick.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			surely the fact he made that journey when loaded with the virus is enough to condemn him.

it really makes my blood boil when people weren't allowed into hospital to see their dying relatives, most of us were unable to see our parents for months, yet this entitled piece of trash thinks it's ok for him to drive 260 miles to his parents house, potentially spreading the virus as he went. wonder if he stopped for petrol on the way?
		
Click to expand...

Don’t forget the Posters on here going crazy about people driving short journeys for exercise and the risk they were taking if they had a crash and the overstretched emergency services needed to attend.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the Forum Kangaroo Court has convened, decided and judged: no need to wait for any facts and let's shoot anyone whose just might even *hint* at disaggreement.
		
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Is that a different court to the usual forum SILH court.
Asking for a friend.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely no deflection from me, he goes. But can you also add Stephen Kinnock, Labour MP, to the must go list. The fool travelled to his father's 78th birthday bash and then, even more foolishly, posted photo's of himself there.
		
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that looks like deflection to me


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## DanFST (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			surely the fact he made that journey when loaded with the virus is enough to condemn him.

it really makes my blood boil when people weren't allowed into hospital to see their dying relatives, most of us were unable to see our parents for months, yet this entitled piece of trash thinks it's ok for him to drive 260 miles to his parents house, potentially spreading the virus as he went. wonder if he stopped for petrol on the way?
		
Click to expand...


It shouldn't make a difference, the disease is largely asymptomatic. Any of these arrogant , should face the same repercussions. 

If I hadn't dealt with government their arrogance would astound me. Unfortunately that ship sailed years ago.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely no deflection from me, he goes. But can you also add Stephen Kinnock, Labour MP, to the must go list. The fool travelled to his father's 78th birthday bash and then, even more foolishly, posted photo's of himself there.
		
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Totally agree and Jenrick, but it wasn’t a birthday bash Kinnock attended, he placed a cake on the doorstep with a card and stepped back. Makes no difference in the overall scheme of things, but clarification required for those on the forum who like facts.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Number 10 say the police never spoke to Cummings, Durham Constabulary issued a statement last night saying they had.

Who do you believe?
		
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I suspect this will be in the detail. I heard a report that said the police spoke to the family at the house and advised them of the guidelines. Cummings may not have been present when the police spoke to the family, highly unlikely as he was isolating with the virus so really he should have been in a room nowhere near the police officers, so both are technically correct. 

This may not be exactly how it happened but it would fit both replies. It is a weasley reply from No 10 if this is correct.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			It's simple - if he's broken lockdown rules he has to go and if he won't he has to be forced to go. End of.
		
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Yes, but we are talking Politics here: rules can be interpreted  - ask any lawyer.

There's a hair's breadth of difference between the Parties when they are early in an elected term. The Tories have a fat majority for a good few years and no doubt, as  Cameron, Tony Blair and Godon Brown, Alex Salmond, and as those before them did, the tactics will be just to ride the media storm until the story falls off the front page.

Best not to get too exercised.


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## Foxholer (May 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			another example of the hypocrisy of this Gov.
		
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Or pretty much ANY govt imo!


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## Swinglowandslow (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see the Forum Kangaroo Court has convened, decided and judged: no need to wait for any facts and let's shoot anyone whose just might even *hint* at disaggreement.
		
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I agree that jumping to conclusions is not a good idea, however, in this case, it seems beyond dispute that his wife or him, or both should have isolated at the moment one had got the symptoms. IIRC, we are talking about the first advice on the first lockdown scenario. 
That clearly doesn't mean suspected cases travelling.
Why could not he and wife stayed in London home, and sister etc have collected son to look after him?.
If that was a feasible arrangement, then he should not have travelled.
And he clearly did travel.
Therefore the advice was broken.
The details are not going to change that, are they?
If they do, I await to be enlightened


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			that looks like deflection to me 

Click to expand...

Why am I not surprised must be a full moon


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Why am I not surprised must be a full moon

Click to expand...

Probably got it from the use of a Labour MP to answer me.

Other party politicians are available if needed and your reply would of carried the same weight.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes, but we are talking Politics here: rules can be interpreted  - ask any lawyer.

There's a hair's breadth of difference between the Parties when they are early in an elected term. The Tories have a fat majority for a good few years and no doubt, as  Cameron, Tony Blair and Godon Brown, Alex Salmond, and as those before them did, the tactics will be just to ride the media storm until the story falls off the front page.

Best not to get too exercised.
		
Click to expand...

No previous tory PM’s in your list then?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No previous tory PM’s in your list then?
		
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Erm Cameron lol


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree that jumping to conclusions is not a good idea, however, in this case, it seems beyond dispute that his wife or him, or both should have isolated at the moment one had got the symptoms. IIRC, we are talking about the first advice on the first lockdown scenario.
That clearly doesn't mean suspected cases travelling.
Why could not he and wife stayed in London home, and sister etc have collected son to look after him?.
If that was a feasible arrangement, then he should not have travelled.
And he clearly did travel.
Therefore the *advice *was broken.
The details are not going to change that, are they?
If they do, I await to be enlightened
		
Click to expand...

Ok I'm a bit between jobs at the moment so I'll bite (a little).

You say "Therefore the *advice *was broken." Yup but I wonder how many other take advice and decide under their unique circumstances it would not be relevant. Stupid, unwise, or mitigating cirumstances I don't know.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Erm Cameron lol
		
Click to expand...

Well spotted, apologies to drdel.


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## AmandaJR (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes, but we are talking Politics here: rules can be interpreted  - ask any lawyer.

There's a hair's breadth of difference between the Parties when they are early in an elected term. The Tories have a fat majority for a good few years and no doubt, as  Cameron, Tony Blair and Godon Brown, Alex Salmond, and as those before them did, the tactics will be just to ride the media storm until the story falls off the front page.

Best not to get too exercised.
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't make it right though. Others have gone for similar transgressions so, for consistency, so should he. I want the government to be as above reproach as possible during exceptional times and, allowing this to fall off the front page, is not above reproach.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely no deflection from me, he goes. But can you also add Stephen Kinnock, Labour MP, to the must go list. The fool travelled to his father's 78th birthday bash and then, even more foolishly, posted photo's of himself there.
		
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No defence of Kinnock but he is not in a position of power or influence to be removed from. He is an mp and hopefully the electorate will remember his actions next election. If they still vote him in then that is their choice.

If he was a minister or shadow minister then I would have expected him to be removed with the others who have broken the guidelines.

Incidentally, thank heavens for Cummings. It's blowing a gale here. No golf, no anything outside. I've already painted and tidied everything inside the house and there is no sport to watch. This is helping to pass a little time before I get motivated to do something.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Erm Cameron lol
		
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Don't make posters read the whole post it'll stop the bickering which is half the amusement


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably got it from the use of a Labour MP to answer me.

Other party politicians are available if needed and your reply would of carried the same weight.

Click to expand...

I agree. Kinnock is one of the very best MP's in my opinion, and certainly someone I'd vote for. But I find it sad that the looney left on here, just as the looney right only talk about political figures from the opposition. Maybe I should have wasted more time saying that but, to be honest, I've just about had my fill of the petty idiots on here taking cheap pot shots.


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No defence of Kinnock but he is not in a position of power or influence to be removed from. He is an mp and hopefully the electorate will remember his actions next election. If they still vote him in then that is their choice.

If he was a minister or shadow minister then I would have expected him to be removed with the others who have broken the guidelines.
		
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Ah, that makes it alright then. No it doesn't!!!!! As far as I'm concerned anyone, of whatever persuasion, who crosses the line should go. Ah, but he's only an MP - pathetic deflection!!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I agree. Kinnock is one of the very best MP's in my opinion, and certainly someone I'd vote for. But I find it sad that the looney left on here, just as the looney right only talk about political figures from the opposition. Maybe I should have wasted more time saying that but, to be honest, I've just about had my fill of the petty idiots on here taking cheap pot shots.
		
Click to expand...

As the saying goes, “if you can’t beat em, join em” welcome to the club.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No defence of Kinnock but he is not in a position of power or influence to be removed from. He is an mp and hopefully the electorate will remember his actions next election. If they still vote him in then that is their choice.

If he was a minister or shadow minister then *I would have expected him to be removed with the others who have broken the guidelines*.

Incidentally, thank heavens for Cummings. It's blowing a gale here. No golf, no anything outside. I've already painted and tidied everything inside the house and there is no sport to watch. This is helping to pass a little time before I get motivated to do something.
		
Click to expand...

Like Jenrick?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Don't make posters read the whole post it'll stop the bickering which is half the amusement 

Click to expand...

Less fun that way.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, that makes it alright then. No it doesn't!!!!! As far as I'm concerned anyone, of whatever persuasion, who crosses the line should go. Ah, but he's only an MP - pathetic deflection!!!!
		
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No it isn't. The people who have resigned or been sacked so far have done so from certain positions. They have not lost their entire jobs, they have lost their positions at the top table where the big decisions are made. They have been moved to the background. Kinnock was never at the top table. If he was then clearly he should have gone, as I have already said.

Edit, apparently he is Shadow Minister for Asia and the Pacific region. As minor a post as you can get but even so Starmer should have removed him from it. Each party should be consistent on this.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Gove, Raab and Sunak have all tweeted that Cummings' actions were perfectly acceptable. And so it begins. What a spineless shower.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I agree. Kinnock is one of the very best MP's in my opinion, and certainly someone I'd vote for. But I find it sad that the looney left on here, just as the looney right only talk about political figures from the opposition. *Maybe I should have wasted more time saying that but, to be honest, I've just about had my fill of the petty idiots on here taking cheap pot shots.*

Click to expand...


oosh, couldn't help yourself doing the same though


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Like Jenrick?
		
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Yup. You have to be consistent. 

I don't care about the colour of anyone's rosette generally and certainly not on this issue.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

thought the Labour Party comment was very weak last night compared to the Lib Dems and the SNP.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 23, 2020)

FFS STOP THE BICKERING 
😡


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			FFS STOP THE BICKERING
😡
		
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Awwww don't be a spoilsport it's Dominic Cummings🤣🤣


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			thought the Labour Party comment was very weak last night compared to the Lib Dems and the SNP.
		
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but what ever they say has little sway anyway, just look at the responses from Gov ministers and trying to cover it up.

he won't get sacked or resign.. and i a few days as Dr del says it will be old news and something else will take its place...


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)




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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Gove, Raab and Sunak have all tweeted that Cummings' actions were perfectly acceptable. And so it begins. What a spineless shower.
		
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Is it only me who is visualising a Malcolm Tucker type character in Tory HQ unleashing a foul mouth tirade at these ministers telling them to get tweeting. And off they go.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Looking at the timelines, maybe Jenrick was aware of where cummings was when he made his trip, unfortunately for him his breach was discovered soon after.

So, in his favour was the knowledge that if they’d of sacked him they would of had to sack cummings or anyone else if they came to light.

Like a good conspirancy theory me.


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## Beezerk (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's also a massive political mistake, Johnson will lose a lot of support over this.
		
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Alternatively, 99% of the population couldn't really GAFF about it and are getting on with their lives the best they can?


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2020)

Odd, there appears to be a lot of posts on this topic for what is essentially an open and shut case!


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Beezerk said:



*Alternatively, 99% of the population couldn't really GAFF about it* and are getting on with their lives the best they can?
		
Click to expand...


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Odd, there appears to be a lot of posts on this topic for what is essentially an open and shut case!
		
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But as can be seen from supportive tweets from the ministers, its OK as he was only thinking of the safety of his kids. And it is a nasty disease. So anyone who disagrees with his right to travel is a heartless unfeeling psychopath. Which is ironic as some may say that is a great description of Cummings.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Alternatively, 99% of the population couldn't really GAFF about it and are getting on with their lives the best they can?
		
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The 99% are probably the same people who are out clapping on a thursday night.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is it only me who is visualising a Malcolm Tucker type character in Tory HQ unleashing a foul mouth tirade at these ministers telling them to get tweeting. And off they go.
		
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absolutely. makes me think back to Johnson's first cabinet meeting when he asks them "how many new hospitals are we going to build?", and they all chime back "40" like a bunch of little kids.


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## AmandaJR (May 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			Not from his followers. Like Trump.
		
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Not true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Absolutely stunning response from No.10.

So the only person in the UK who's allowed to travel for essential childcare just so happens to work in Downing Street. What were the chances of that?
		
Click to expand...

My wife is angry - but not only is she angry - but now with all those making excuses for Cummings she is actually getting very upset.  She has contained and managed the upset she felt for herself, her mum, and our children at not being able to be with her mum on her mum's 90th birthday last Monday.  How did she manage to do that? By telling herself and our children that the rules are there to be followed.  We need to stick to them no matter how upset at the situation, that not being with Nan on her 90th was just how it is.

My son popped 17miles down the road to her from his home in Sheffield - and he stood in the drive while my M-i-L stood in her doorway and he wished her happy birthday.  He desperately wanted to give her a big hug, and I am sure she felt the same towards him.  But they couldn't - because the rules said we shouldn't.

So when my wife hears the arrogance of Cummings on this, and excuses being made for Cummings on 'common sense' or 'have a heart/emotional' grounds - well she is incandescent with them - and very upset.  And I can only imagine how so very, very upset many who have lost loved ones over the last two months will be on hearing such excuses and government ministers standing being Cummings.  And she lost it with Dave Davies earlier when he said that he wasn't going to comment on the controversy as he only comments on matters that affect voters...

She is a very upset bunny...


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## larmen (May 23, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Not true.
		
Click to expand...

You don't think there are followers of Johnson that take everything he says at face value? Looking at it through their b tinted glasses?

Trump has them, Corbin has them, but everybody following Boris differentiates?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife is angry - but not only is she angry - but now with all those making excuses for Cummings she is actually getting very upset.  She has contained and managed the upset she felt for herself, her mum, and our children at not being able to be with her mum on her mum's 90th birthday last Monday.  How did she manage to do that? By telling herself and our children that the rules are there to be followed.  We need to stick to them no matter how upset at the situation, that not being with Nan on her 90th was just how it is.

My son popped 17miles down the road to her from his home in Sheffield - and he stood in the drive while my M-i-L stood in her doorway and he wished her happy birthday.  He desperately wanted to give her a big hug, and I am sure she felt the same towards him.  But they couldn't - because the rules said we shouldn't.

So when my wife hears the arrogance of Cummings on this, and excuses being made for Cummings on 'common sense' or 'have a heart/emotional' grounds - well she is incandescent with them - and very upset.  And I can only imagine how so very, very upset many who have lost loved ones over the last two months will be on hearing such excuses and government ministers standing being Cummings.  And she lost it with Dave Davies earlier when he said that he wasn't going to comment on the controversy as he only comments on matters that affect voters...

She is a very upset bunny...
		
Click to expand...

She is not the only one, my Mrs has taken to shouting and swearing at certain far right Tory politicians on the telly.
For someone who never swore before 2016 and seldom raised her voice, that takes some getting used to.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Not true.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I don't know Amanda, I think that John Major's 'swivel eyed loons' comment on the far right faction of the Tory party still stands today.
Probably need another 10 years before the majority pass away.


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## Beezerk (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The 99% are probably the same people who are out clapping on a thursday night.

Click to expand...

Wtf? That makes absolutely no sense


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's pretty clear that Cummings broke the rules which does beg another question. Should all the government ministers who are currently misrepresenting the public health guidelines and effectively undermining our entire strategy against the pandemic in order to defend him also resign?
		
Click to expand...

If they cave on cummings, jenrick has to go, the only thing that’ll save face is if he resigns and going by his comments this morning I can’t see that happening either.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Wtf? That makes absolutely no sense 

Click to expand...

It makes as much sense as your 99% not GAFF,


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's pretty clear that Cummings broke the rules which does beg another question. Should all the government ministers who are currently misrepresenting the public health guidelines and effectively undermining our entire strategy against the pandemic in order to defend him also resign?
		
Click to expand...

That's a rather extreme suggestion.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife is angry - but not only is she angry - but now with all those making excuses for Cummings she is actually getting very upset.  She has contained and managed the upset she felt for herself, her mum, and our children at not being able to be with her mum on her mum's 90th birthday last Monday.  How did she manage to do that? By telling herself and our children that the rules are there to be followed.  We need to stick to them no matter how upset at the situation, that not being with Nan on her 90th was just how it is.

My son popped 17miles down the road to her from his home in Sheffield - and he stood in the drive while my M-i-L stood in her doorway and he wished her happy birthday.  He desperately wanted to give her a big hug, and I am sure she felt the same towards him.  But they couldn't - because the rules said we shouldn't.

So when my wife hears the arrogance of Cummings on this, and excuses being made for Cummings on 'common sense' or 'have a heart/emotional' grounds - well she is incandescent with them - and very upset.  And I can only imagine how so very, very upset many who have lost loved ones over the last two months will be on hearing such excuses and government ministers standing being Cummings.  And she lost it with Dave Davies earlier when he said that he wasn't going to comment on the controversy as he only comments on matters that affect voters...

She is a very upset bunny...
		
Click to expand...

I think the young age of DC's child might be relevant rather than an adult son and daughter.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She is not the only one, my Mrs has taken to shouting and swearing at certain far right Tory politicians on the telly.
For someone who never swore before 2016 and seldom raised her voice, that takes some getting used to.

Click to expand...

Far Right!  Really.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think the young age of DC's child might be relevant rather than an adult son and daughter.
		
Click to expand...

You mean locking him in a car with Covid-19 for 5 hours on the way to Durham, whilst either 1 or both parents possibly weren’t in a fit state to drive?


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You mean locking him in a car with Covid-19 for 5 hours on the way to Durham, whilst either 1 or both parents possibly weren’t in a fit state to drive?
		
Click to expand...

I was simply replying to SILH, you're taking it out of context and just creating repetition.


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## AmandaJR (May 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			You don't think there are followers of Johnson that take everything he says at face value? Looking at it through their b tinted glasses?

Trump has them, Corbin has them, but everybody following Boris differentiates?
		
Click to expand...

Of course there are. Your post didn't specify "some" though and implied all.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I was simply replying to SILH, you're taking it out of context and just creating repetition.
		
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I was asking the relevance of age? Surely the safety of any child is at the forefront of any parents mind.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			On the face of it yes. But on the other hand the lockdown is effectively over if they don't get the public back onside quickly.
		
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Do you think the Public are offside over this, you cant really suggest that based on the comments posted on this Forum, most comments are politically motivated. Cummings may well have made a wrong decision but there seems to be a great deal of what I can only describe as political opertunist prejudice being used.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think the Public are offside over this, you cant really suggest that based on the comments posted on this Forum, most comments are politically motivated. Cummings may well have made a wrong decision *but there seems to be a great deal of what I can only describe as political opertunist prejudice being used*.
		
Click to expand...

This is no different to any other situation were it involve 1 person from 1 party.

The same happened over Calderwood with the SNP.


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2020)

Ah do as I say, not as I do ... oh and I am fit to be your judge but don’t think your entitled to be mine 

That’s the uk, irrespective of political view point, it’s inherent in our culture it’s in our politics and our businesses.


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## gregbwfc (May 23, 2020)

Can't believe Johnson isn't taking the opportunity to give such a clearly divisive character the boot.
Speaks volumes.


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## Beezerk (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It makes as much sense as your 99% not GAFF, 

Click to expand...

Er yeeeaaah


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## DanFST (May 23, 2020)

Can only imagine how much dirt Cummings has on the government. 

There is absolutely no reason to die on this hill for an advisor otherwise. You simply make him quit then quietly employ as a consultant through proxy. 

If we return back to phase 1, it won’t happen. The government have sold the police down the river.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Transport Secretary about to be thrown under the bus.


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## ColchesterFC (May 23, 2020)

My favourite comment from Twitter....."Asking Boris to sack Cummings is a bit like asking Emu to sack Rod Hull".


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Transport Secretary about to be thrown under the bus.
		
Click to expand...

He must have really hacked boris off about something to get that gig.


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2020)

Cummings really is a hill that every Tory Minister is willing to die on isn’t he? Astonishing just how loyal they are to him.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He must have really hacked boris off about something to get that gig.
		
Click to expand...

I actually feel sorry for Shapps, its excruciating watching him tying himself in knots defending the indefensible.


----------



## NWJocko (May 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Cummings really is a hill that every Tory Minister is willing to die on isn’t he? Astonishing just how loyal they are to him.
		
Click to expand...

And even more concerning re the level of influence he actually has......

Tbh if they sacked him it would be theatre anyway as he’d be employed as a consultant within minutes to carry out the same role.


----------



## bluewolf (May 23, 2020)

NWJocko said:



			And even more concerning re the level of influence he actually has......

Tbh if they sacked him it would be theatre anyway as he’d be employed as a consultant within minutes to carry out the same role.
		
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Totally mate. I always knew that he was important to the Party, but this appears to show that he really is in the upper echelon of importance!!


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## Italian outcast (May 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Cummings really is a hill that every Tory Minister is willing to die on isn’t he? Astonishing just how loyal they are to him.
		
Click to expand...

he deals with data, if you know what i mean


----------



## bluewolf (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Lockdown's over folks.
		
Click to expand...

It is if you love your family enough. Those of us who obeyed the actual rules just don’t love our family as much as Dom...


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

the most laughable part was Shapps claiming that Cummings never saw his family, and all his sister did was to leave food on the doorstep for them. are we really to believe that if that was all the support they required, there was no-one in London who could have delivered food to them?

The government stance is a total slap in the face for everyone who self-isolated at home with their kids.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

I missed the briefing as I was busy retweeting Momentum tweets.  Did they say which other lock down rules it is OK for government advisors to ignore but the rest of the public must obey?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That's a fairly classic riposte isn't it? "He did wrong but you're only complaining because you already oppose him."

He broke the rules/guidelines/law and needs to go for the government to have any credibility. Same as Ferguson and Calderwood had to go and I had no axe to grind with them.
		
Click to expand...

You suggested the lockdown is over if the Government dont get the Public back onside quickly.  I keep repeating that if he broke rules he should be treated the same way as anyone else but I believe your views on this are a little dramatic and loaded, you previously suggested the whole Cabinet should resign, isnt that rather a classic riposte.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Underrated tweet 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264179727616675845


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's worse than that. It's the same for all of us. Basically the rules are the rules unless you have a good reason not to follow them in your own mind.
		
Click to expand...

Classic 'Riposte'


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You suggested the lockdown is over if the Government dont get the Public back onside quickly.  I keep repeating that if he broke rules he should be treated the same way as anyone else but I believe your views on this are a little dramatic and loaded, you previously suggested the whole Cabinet should resign, isnt that rather a classic riposte.
		
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Lockdown was over a long time before this story about yet another idiot came to light. 

Yet another helicopter used to rescue an idiot who doesn't even understand tides and traveled 100 miles for the privilege. 

Darwin Awards all around.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Totally mate. I always knew that he was important to the Party, but this appears to show that he really is in the upper echelon of importance!!
		
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One iron in a thunderstorm important?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That one really stung you, eh?
		
Click to expand...

Ouch!


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Lockdown's over folks.
		
Click to expand...

Great news. I'm booking a 4 ball to celebrate. 

I sometimes question their competence and methods but this time well done the government for acting decisively and showing the rest of the world how to deal with a crisis. I bet New Zealand will be envious, Japan and South Korea will want to know just how we did it. And as for Germany, well suck it up Fritz, we've conquered Covid 19 and which means we can leave the EU knowing that as we are practically back to normal now and leaving the EU won't impact us at all.  Are you watching Merkel, look who's in the driving seat in the negotiations now!!


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2020)

Gotta love the paparazzi, no 2m for them.


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Great news. I'm booking a 4 ball to celebrate.

I sometimes question their competence and methods but this time well done the government for acting decisively and showing the rest of the world how to deal with a crisis. I bet New Zealand will be envious, Japan and South Korea will want to know just how we did it. And as for Germany, well suck it up Fritz, we've conquered Covid 19 and which means we can leave the EU knowing that as we are practically back to normal now and leaving the EU won't impact us at all.  Are you watching Merkel, look who's in the driving seat in the negotiations now!!
		
Click to expand...

We knew you'd come around in the end


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Lockdown was over a long time before this story about yet another idiot came to light.

Yet another helicopter used to rescue an idiot who doesn't even understand tides and traveled 100 miles for the privilege.

Darwin Awards all around.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunatly they are always with us. 
I should be able to get to Lundy on this Lilo 🙄


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

Genius. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264126356008427520


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			One iron in a thunderstorm important?
		
Click to expand...

Well it would appear that the Tories are quite willing to be struck by lightning as long as Dom stays in place... I’m not sure any other person would inspire such loyalty...


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Well it would appear that the Tories are quite willing to be struck by lightning as long as Dom stays in place... I’m not sure any other person would inspire such loyalty...
		
Click to expand...

Surely no one would sack Ken Clarke.   Wait a minute...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2020)

The UK public have all got a 'get out of jail free' card now,
If stopped by the Polis over lockdown just make some poo up and then reference Cummings.

I know the UK Government have had some criticism over folk 'misunderstanding' lockdown rules in England but this really does take the biscuit.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2020)

I'm no political expert but I feel this is the moment which the government lost what confidence it had stored up from the great British public regarding dealing with the Covid crisis. Believe me, I have tried trusting them. I'm sure some Labour supporters will be happy that the government seemingly is becoming increasing out of its depth as it is a political opportunity for them. But as a non Tory voter myself, to be honest this does scare me a bit as any government that does not command the confidence of the majority of the nation in times of crisis is a liability. And as can be seen from a few other countries, political incompetence and stupidity does lead directly to more deaths.


----------



## Old Skier (May 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK public have all got a 'get out of jail free' card now,
If stopped by the Polis over lockdown just make some poo up and then reference Cummings.

I know the UK Government have had some criticism over folk 'misunderstanding' lockdown rules in England but this really does take the biscuit.
		
Click to expand...

So all of a sudden you want to be controlled by the rules applying to England, that's a first.


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm no political expert but I feel this is the moment which the government lost what confidence it had stored up from the great British public regarding dealing with the Covid crisis. Believe me, I have tried trusting them. I'm sure some Labour supporters will be happy that the government seemingly is becoming increasing out of its depth as it is a political opportunity for them. But as a non Tory voter myself, to be honest this does scare me a bit as any government that does not command the confidence of the majority of the nation in times of crisis is a liability. And as can be seen from a few other countries, political incompetence and stupidity does lead directly to more deaths.
		
Click to expand...

People have short memories in the main.  It will all blow over when Agnes is sitting on the beach this Monday complaining about Gertrud being to close and why did they come all the way down the Bognor for their Fish & Chips.


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## Imurg (May 23, 2020)

With my backside firmly on the fence when it comes to political shenanigans I do find it mildly amusing that people are suddenly finding the lockdown rules so clear yet a month ago they were so confusing and vague.......


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm no political expert but I feel this is the moment which the government lost what confidence it had stored up from the great British public regarding dealing with the Covid crisis. Believe me, I have tried trusting them. I'm sure some Labour supporters will be happy that the government seemingly is becoming increasing out of its depth as it is a political opportunity for them. But as a non Tory voter myself, to be honest this does scare me a bit as any government that does not command the confidence of the majority of the nation in times of crisis is a liability. And as can be seen from a few other countries, political incompetence and stupidity does lead directly to more deaths.
		
Click to expand...

I see. All the support to business, furloughing workers, helping self employed, supporting the NHS , increasing testing and so on means nothing to you because a Government Political Advisor decided in his opinion he wanted to move his young child to a place he felt was safe, be it right or wrong.    I think the majority of people will see this for what it is and move on from it.


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## ColchesterFC (May 23, 2020)

Just been reading some of the tweets by Conservative MPs supporting what Cummings did. It's interesting that almost all of them use very similar language...."entirely right", "obviously reasonable", "justifiable and reasonable", "inappropriate to politicise" etc. Someone more cynical than me might think that they had been told what to tweet.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			With my backside firmly on the fence when it comes to political shenanigans I do find it mildly amusing that people are suddenly finding the lockdown rules so clear yet a month ago they were so confusing and vague.......
		
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Surely we were told a month ago that the rules were so clear there wasn’t an issue, it looks like they weren’t and those of us who were denied the right to attend a brothers funeral or how long we could exercise for were right all along.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

So one family of 3 travels in a private vehicle and stays in isolation in a seperate house for the recommended time: number of people outside the family exposed.  Nil I'd suggest.

Gang of 10-15 reporters and photographers clamour to get story of the terribly risky trip and consequential transmission of the virus, but do not SD. 

Media and Golf Forum outraged, general public not so fussed. IMO, of course.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			So one family of 3 travels in a private vehicle and stays in isolation in a seperate house for the recommended time: number of people outside the family exposed.  Nil I'd suggest.

Gang of 10-15 reporters and photographers clamour to get story of the terribly risky trip and consequential transmission of the virus, but do not SD.

Media and Golf Forum outraged, general public not so fussed. IMO, of course. 

Click to expand...

The behaviour of the media has been slated time and time again on here, including the worlds press outside St Thomas’s when boris was in hospital.

There is no justifiable reason for the journey he and his wife took, what about the risk if they’d of had an accident? What about exposing the vulnerable grandparents to the virus? What about the clear rules to not leave the house for 14 days? What about the lies she’s told in the articles she’s written? What about the fact the timelines don’t match? What about the Police being called liars.

Those are just the immediate questions.


----------



## PaulS (May 23, 2020)

I’m not sure why anyone attempts to justify his actions 

He clearly broke the governments own  lockdown restrictions just like others have. I can’t go 2 miles to go into my parents house yet he drove 100’s of miles with symptoms.

As for the general public not being fussed - suggest reading social media to see that’s very much nowhere near the truth


----------



## Jimaroid (May 23, 2020)

Yougov survey reports 68% adults believe Cummings broke Lockdown rules and 52% believe he should resign.

Totally fits with the opinion that 99% of the public are not fussed.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

At this rate the NHS will not worry about ICU capacity for Covid19 but the need for capacity for Golf Forum members with heart attacks caused by pseudo-outrage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			I was simply replying to SILH, you're taking it out of context and just creating repetition.
		
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I am referring to what many have had to do or not do, despite what emotions and common sense might suggest. The rules said don’t do and so we didn‘t do.  Simple.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			At this rate the NHS will not worry about ICU capacity for Covid19 but the need for capacity for Golf Forum members with heart attacks caused by pseudo-outrage.
		
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Hilarious! We look forward to the next time you tory apologists take the moral high ground.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The behaviour of the media has been slated time and time again on here, including the worlds press outside St Thomas’s when boris was in hospital.

There is no justifiable reason for the journey he and his wife took, what about the risk if they’d of had an accident? What about exposing the vulnerable grandparents to the virus? What about the clear rules to not leave the house for 14 days? What about the lies she’s told in the articles she’s written? What about the fact the timelines don’t match? What about the Police being called liars.

Those are just the immediate questions.
		
Click to expand...

How many stops for petrol or toilet breaks did they make? Very unlikely a 4 year old could make it through a 5 hour car drive without needing a pee, never mind a couple of middle-aged parents.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hilarious! We look forward to the next time you tory apologists take the moral high ground.

Click to expand...

Ain't no Conservative, but don't let me spoil your fun.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How many stops for petrol or toilets breaks did they make? Very unlikely a 4 year old could make it through a 5 hour car drive without needing a pee, never mind a couple of middle-aged parents.
		
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For the benefit of the pedants, they could of took steps to sort that in the car as they travelled and had a full tank before they left.

It’s more what state of health were they both in as her story contradicts his and the governments.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Ain't no Conservative, but don't let me spoil your fun.
		
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Said tory apologist not tory voter.


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## pendodave (May 23, 2020)

Hate to say it, but I think we need Cummings in place for the next couple of months. Hang him after that.
In our current situation, it's no longer the virus that's the issue, it's the economic abyss that lockdown is sending us into. I sense (!) that Cummings has known this all along , and that without his 'guidance', the bunch of lightweights (not exactly the brains trust) floundering around at the moment will be no use whatsoever in sorting things out.
Not a moral judgement, but a practical one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

After Cabinet Ministers spending all day backing him and people playing it down, let’s hope this isn’t true or they are all going to be very embarrassed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264263470226329602


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Yougov survey reports 68% adults believe Cummings broke Lockdown rules and 52% believe he should resign.

Totally fits with the opinion that 99% of the public are not fussed.
		
Click to expand...

I wonder how many people that poll was based on and what their demographic was. Probably mainly frothed up anti Tory Golf Forumers 😀


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Charming. I'll take what you said at face value then, which speaks volumes.
		
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## HomerJSimpson (May 23, 2020)

Think its getting harder for the Tory powers that be to defend the actions if its a repeated offence. Wait and see what comes out but it doesn't look good


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Shocked I am, shocked I tell you. It's almost as if he thinks his privilege allows him to do whatever he likes regardless of the public health rules.
		
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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

BREAKING 
Coronavirus: Dominic Cummings made second trip to Durham during lock down.

Dominic Cummings made a second trip to Durham during the lockdown, according to reports.

The prime minister's top aide was seen on 19 April near his family's home in the North East, said The Guardian and the Daily Mirror.

- surely now he has to go?

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ip-to-durham-during-lockdown-reports-11993601


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			BREAKING 
Coronavirus: Dominic Cummings made second trip to Durham during lock down.

Dominic Cummings made a second trip to Durham during the lockdown, according to reports.

The prime minister's top aide was seen on 19 April near his family's home in the North East, said The Guardian and the Daily Mirror.

- surely now he has to go?
		
Click to expand...

Catch up, that been posted about three times already.   Before going off half cocked let's see if its correct.


----------



## Jimaroid (May 23, 2020)

There's definitely a lot of 


SocketRocket said:



			Catch up, that been posted about three times already.   Before going off half cocked let's see if its correct.
		
Click to expand...

For once we can agree there's definitely a lot of full cock going off here.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			There's definitely a lot of


For once we can agree there's definitely a lot of full cock going off here.
		
Click to expand...

You said it (Twice) 😀


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			BREAKING
Coronavirus: Dominic Cummings made second trip to Durham during lock down.

Dominic Cummings made a second trip to Durham during the lockdown, according to reports.

The prime minister's top aide was seen on 19 April near his family's home in the North East, said The Guardian and the Daily Mirror.

- surely now he has to go?

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ip-to-durham-during-lockdown-reports-11993601

Click to expand...

Also in the link I posted it mentions him being sighted in Barnard Castle, 30 mile from his home during the 14 day period he was apparently on lockdown.


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## drdel (May 23, 2020)

Meanwhile. At least the UK has not yet gathered their 'experts' from quite such a wide spectrum as the USA's CNN panel discussing the Corvid 19.

Panel comprised former Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, and former Centres for Disease Control and Prevention director Richard Besser  and, wait for it, Environmental Activist Greta Thunberg. !!


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Also in the link I posted it mentions him being sighted in Barnard Castle, 30 mile from his home during the 14 day period he was apparently on lockdown.

Click to expand...

They seek him here, they seek him there, that damned elusive DomCumel.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile. At least the UK has not yet gathered their 'experts' from quite such a wide spectrum as the USA's CNN panel discussing the Corvid 19.

Panel comprised former Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, and former Centres for Disease Control and Prevention director Richard Besser  and, wait for it, Environmental Activist Greta Thunberg. !!
		
Click to expand...

How Dare they!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They seek him here, they seek him there, that damned elusive DomCumel.
		
Click to expand...

Glad you find it funny, unfortunately for personal reasons, I don’t.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Glad you find it funny, unfortunately for personal reasons, I don’t.
		
Click to expand...

Lighten up.  Personal reasons, it's nothing personal to you unless you want it to be.


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Lighten up.  Personal reasons, it's nothing personal to you unless you want it to be.
		
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How do you know what is personal to other posters?


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## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Catch up, that been posted about three times already.   Before going off half cocked let's see if its correct.
		
Click to expand...

So it turns out the licence plate of the car the Cummings lookalike in Barnard Castle was driving matches the car Cummings drives. Who would have thought it, eh?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How do you know what is personal to other posters?
		
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I'm not a clairvoiant, if someone has a personal issue with what I posted then they should explain why, there was nothing anyone should take personally in what it contained.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So it turns out the licence plate of the car the Cummings lookalike in Barnard Castle was driving matches the car Cummings drives. Who would have thought it, eh?
		
Click to expand...

I'll take my information from the Organ grinder.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Lighten up.  Personal reasons, it's nothing personal to you unless you want it to be.
		
Click to expand...

My brother died during this period and as a family we had to make the decision who could and could not attend based on the “so called” rules, please don’t tell me to lighten up as you have no idea how it has and is affecting me mentally not getting the chance to say goodbye.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			My brother died during this period and as a family we had to make the decision who could and could not attend based on the “so called” rules, please don’t tell me to lighten up as you have no idea how it has and is affecting me mentally not getting the chance to say goodbye.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry about your Brother but it's unfair to suggest anything I've posted was aimed at your loss. You know that.

I honestly and respectfully suggest you should take a break from posting on these threads while you're feeling this way.


----------



## rudebhoy (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm sorry about your Brother but it's unfair to suggest anything I've posted was aimed at your loss. You know that.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should just stop digging and shut up.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm sorry about your Brother but it's unfair to suggest anything I've posted was aimed at your loss. You know that.
		
Click to expand...

It was a direct reply to my post! I know it wasn’t aimed at my loss as like me, you’re not a mind reader.

But you could of asked why I was bothered rather than just make light of it.


----------



## PaulS (May 23, 2020)

From what I understand it appears that his wife’s sister lives 20 minutes from them ,  So why didn’t he go to her to help with childcare ?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It was a direct reply to my post! I know it wasn’t aimed at my loss as like me, you’re not a mind reader.

But you could of asked why I was bothered rather than just make light of it.
		
Click to expand...

With respect you could have explained.   I honestly think you should take a break from this and similar threads for now.
.


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2020)

PaulS said:



			From what I understand it appears that his wife’s sister lives 20 minutes from them ,  So why didn’t he go to her to help with childcare ?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe she wants nothing to do with him; I have as little to do with mine as possible.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

I see Steve Baker, him of the ERG, has broken cover and said Cummings must go. Interesting to see if any other tory MPs will follow.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe she wants nothing to do with him; I have as little to do with mine as possible.
		
Click to expand...

We were told that all Cummings' sister had done was to leave food on the doorstep. If that was the extent of the support they needed, I'm sure her sister could have done that in London, even if they are not great friends.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see Steve Baker, him of the ERG, has broken cover and said Cummings must go. Interesting to see if any other tory MPs will follow.
		
Click to expand...

Good for him. He's not my cup of tea politically, but at least he has had the guts to say what most of us are thinking.


----------



## User62651 (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see Steve Baker, him of the ERG, has broken cover and said Cummings must go. Interesting to see if any other tory MPs will follow.
		
Click to expand...

 It's a interesting article he's written, worth a read imo
https://thecritic.co.uk/boris-must-take-back-control/#


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2020)

Sweet baby Jesus. Steve Baker is really throwing Cummings under the bus on Ridge today. It’s brutal.


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## Imurg (May 24, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Sweet baby Jesus. Steve Baker is really throwing Cummings under the bus on Ridge today. It’s brutal.
		
Click to expand...

Someone needs to....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Sweet baby Jesus. Steve Baker is really throwing Cummings under the bus on Ridge today. It’s brutal.
		
Click to expand...

For Steve Baker, I’m guessing that Cummings has served his sole purpose and if damaging Boris in any way just has to go.


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## User62651 (May 24, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Sweet baby Jesus. Steve Baker is really throwing Cummings under the bus on Ridge today. It’s brutal.
		
Click to expand...

Huge respect to Baker, spoke clearly, rationally and reasonably, now poor Schapps is on and trying desperately to change the subject.


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Huge respect to Baker, spoke clearly, rationally and reasonably, now poor Schapps is on and trying desperately to change the subject.
		
Click to expand...

Schapps is now providing an abject masterclass in avoiding answering any direct questions whilst blindly adhering to the 5 line script provided for him. This is now a national embarrassment..


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Schapps is now providing an abject masterclass in avoiding answering any direct questions whilst blindly adhering to the 5 line script provided for him. This is now a national embarrassment..
		
Click to expand...

I want to know more about the A66


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2020)

Someone needs to send an ambulance to central London as Ridge is eviscerating Schapps live on tv. 

I don’t know what Schapps has done to deserve this, but they really have hung him out to dry here.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

'Thanks for the job tips' . Sick burn Sophie....


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

Simon Hoare MP
@Simon4NDorset
With the damage Mr Cummings is doing to the Government’s reputation he must consider his position. Lockdown has had its challenges for everyone. It’s his cavalier “I don’t care; I’m cleverer than you” tone that infuriates people. He is now wounding the PM/Govt & I don’t like that


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## AmandaJR (May 24, 2020)

Whether he likes it or not, agrees with it or not, Boris needs to get rid today and then do the briefing later. Time to get back on track and show some leadership.


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2020)

just watching a bit of Marr, who was speaking to the DG of the BBC, first thing he said  the BBC should be an impartial reporting agency... maybe he should tell Kuenssberg


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Whether he likes it or not, agrees with it or not, Boris needs to get rid today and then do the briefing later. *Time to get back on track and show some leadership.*

Click to expand...

I fear you may be waiting a long time.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			just watching a bit of Marr, who was speaking to the DG of the BBC, first thing he said  the BBC should be an impartial reporting agency... maybe he should tell Kuenssberg

Click to expand...

Marr Show has been unbelievably poor. Massive story going on, they have a few minutes with a couple of journalists talking about it, then hardly a mention of it, 20 minutes waffle about the BBC.

I know Shapps is coming on later, but you would have thought they would be all over the Cummings story.


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Marr Show has been unbelievably poor. Massive story going on, they have a few minutes with a couple of journalists talking about it, then hardly a mention of it, 20 minutes waffle about the BBC.

I know Shapps is coming on later, but you would have thought they would be all over the Cummings story.
		
Click to expand...

TBH Marr has been poor since the last election, i switched over to watch SR, but missed most of it.
As hacker mentioned with Schapps all you might hear about is the A66


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I want to know more about the A66 

Click to expand...

Avoid when windy, wet or if snow is even a remote possibility 👍


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see Steve Baker, him of the ERG, has broken cover and said Cummings must go. Interesting to see if any other tory MPs will follow.
		
Click to expand...

Not a single peep from Scots Tory politicians on twitter for nearly 48 hours now.
Schnapps  [the guy used a false name to claim a second income and lied to Parliament officials] now on a 'I do not know' rinse and repeat on Marr.
Tory party seem to be turning on Johnson.


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## PNWokingham (May 24, 2020)

Crazy that full facts were seemingly not known by Schapps. He was a rabbit in the headlights. However mnuch Boris likes and values him, the government's credibilty will deteriorate by the day unless they get rid of Cummings


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Schapps stated he knows it’s not true that cummings made a second trip to durham, if he’s that positive, prove it, embarrass the papers and move on.

Surely cummings can prove were he was on those alleged dates.


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Schapps stated he knows it’s not true that cummings made a second trip to durham, if he’s that positive, prove it, embarrass the papers and move on.

Surely cummings can prove were he was on those alleged dates.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect that Government Ministers May be a little reluctant to defend Cummings at the moment as they don’t yet know how much information the journalists have. 
They’ve been embarrassed once by tweeting out their support, only for the Guardian/Mirror to release more incriminating information. 
Can you imagine what would happen if Ministers were to insist the Cummings hadn’t travelled back North only for the papers to release photos tonight!


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Crazy that full facts were seemingly not known by Schapps. He was a rabbit in the headlights. However mnuch Boris likes and values him, the government's credibilty will deteriorate by the day unless they get rid of Cummings
		
Click to expand...

Particularly when Sky gave him a set of specific questions yesterday so that he had time to provide specific answers today. Which he failed to do.


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## drdel (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Schapps stated he knows it’s not true that cummings made a second trip to durham, if he’s that positive, prove it, embarrass the papers and move on.

Surely cummings can prove were he was on those alleged dates.
		
Click to expand...

It is for the accusers to provide the proof: the accused only needs provide a defence if he/she chooses. With an impatient media it is best to say nothing, It is not a Court.

Newspapers are used to being sued and just assume few people have the resources to take them on, if they lose it is the company that pays not the individual journalist.

Truth is an ideal rarely found in the press or politics.


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## drdel (May 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Particularly when Sky gave him a set of specific questions yesterday so that he had time to provide specific answers today. Which he failed to do.
		
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The daily briefing questions are selected by an independent company.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			The daily briefing questions are selected by an independent company.
		
Click to expand...

The questions Sky sent him yesterday were the ones they wanted him to answer this morning on Ridge, nothing to do with the daily briefing.


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			The daily briefing questions are selected by an independent company.
		
Click to expand...

Yes they are but you've missed the point. Yesterday Sky sent Schapps the list of questions that they were going to ask him this morning so that he could get the answers. And yet even with that advance warning he still failed to answer some of the questions.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

Sir Roger Gale MP
@SirRogerGale
While as a father and as a grandfather I fully appreciate Mr Cummings’ desire to protect his child. There cannot be one law for the Prime Minister’s staff and another for everyone else. He has sent out completely the wrong message and his position is no longer tenable.



Damian Collins
@DamianCollins
Dominic Cummings has a track record of believing that the rules don’t apply to him and treating the scrutiny that should come to anyone in a position of authority with contempt. The government would be better without him.

looks like the tide is turning.


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes they are but you've missed the point. Yesterday Sky sent Schapps the list of questions that they were going to ask him this morning so that he could get the answers. And yet even with that advance warning he still failed to answer some of the questions.
		
Click to expand...

Ridge played a blinder by letting them know what the questions were going to be. It made Schapps look incredibly unprepared when he couldn’t/wouldn’t answer them.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			... However mnuch Boris likes and values him, the government's credibilty will deteriorate by the day unless they get rid of Cummings
		
Click to expand...

FWIW, While I detest Cummings's arrogance and BoJo's apparent entire dependence on him (rather like Blair and whatshisname of the 'Dodgy Dossier'), I have some (a tiny amount of) sympathy for him if his story about his trip to Durham is real and accurate! But if he is simply flouting the rules - and the '2nd offence' turns out to be legit, then I believe he has to go!

This is a classic UK Press driven PR disaster for a government - whatever happens - and, potentially, another coup for 'The Press' - if Cummings is finally ditched cf holds hands up and 'walks' like others hav. While I believe 'The Press' are an essential element of UK democracy, I'd prefer it was founded on irrefutable logic (as much of the 'Dodgy Dossier' commentary was) rather than the (gutter level imo) tactics that seem to have been adopted in this instance!


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
Truth is an ideal rarely found in the press or politics.
		
Click to expand...

A, potentially, evenly matched bout then!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			It is for the accusers to provide the proof: the accused only needs provide a defence if he/she chooses. With an impatient media it is best to say nothing, It is not a Court.

Newspapers are used to being sued and just assume few people have the resources to take them on, if they lose it is the company that pays not the individual journalist.

Truth is an ideal rarely found in the press or politics.
		
Click to expand...

I totally understand that, and given how they handled yesterday I didn’t believe he would go, with the 2nd accusations it’s switched the focus on to No 10 and the Cabinet members who backed him.

The issue is now wider than just cummings and his relationship with boris.

The government will need to destroy the story, imo, to make it go away, simply denying it will not be enough.


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## Beezerk (May 24, 2020)

Aaaah, you can't beat a good old fashioned witch hunt on a Sunday morning


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			FWIW, While I detest Cummings's arrogance and BoJo's apparent entire dependence on him (rather like Blair and whatshisname of the 'Dodgy Dossier'), I have some (a tiny amount of) sympathy for him if his story about his trip to Durham is real and accurate! But if he is simply flouting the rules - and the '2nd offence' turns out to be legit, then I believe he has to go!

This is a classic UK Press driven PR disaster for a government - whatever happens - and, potentially, another coup for 'The Press' - if Cummings is finally ditched cf holds hands up and 'walks' like others hav. While I believe 'The Press' are an essential element of UK democracy, I'd prefer it was founded on irrefutable logic (as much of the 'Dodgy Dossier' commentary was) rather than the (*gutter level *imo) tactics that seem to have been adopted in this instance!
		
Click to expand...


I'm no lover of the press, but I don't think you can call this gutter level journalism. They were aware from early April he was at his parents. They didn't doorstep his parents estate or hassle the family. They tried to get confirmation on a number of occasions from No 10 who refused to comment. Finally they got the evidence they needed from the police, and published. I'd call that good old-fashioned journalism.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I'm no lover of the press, but I don't think you can call this gutter level journalism...
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps/probably the gathering of info was legit, but 'gutter Press' certainly applies to the scenes *of their tactics* outside his house!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Aaaah, you can't beat a good old fashioned witch hunt on a Sunday morning 

View attachment 30823

Click to expand...

Typical tory apologist post.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Why are so many on here getting so lathered up over this and constantly needing to reassure themselves of their opinion. 
The situation will resolve its self one way or another no matter what any of us think about it.  It's fine to hold a strong opinion but has anyone not expressed it enough times.  
And yes the pot and kettle are indeed black before any suggests it.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why are so many on here getting so lathered up over this and constantly needing to reassure themselves of their opinion.
The situation will resolve its self one way or another no matter what any of us think about it.  It's fine to hold a strong opinion but has anyone not expressed it enough times. 
And yes the pot and kettle are indeed black before any suggests it.
		
Click to expand...

It's a discussion board. Would you rather no one commented?

Feel free to ignore the thread if it's annoying you.


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## Pin-seeker (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why are so many on here getting so lathered up over this and constantly needing to reassure themselves of their opinion.
The situation will resolve its self one way or another no matter what any of us think about it.  It's fine to hold a strong opinion but has anyone not expressed it enough times. 
And yes the pot and kettle are indeed black before any suggests it.
		
Click to expand...

And no one EVER changes their opinion 😂🤣


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's a discussion board. *Would you rather no one commented?*

Feel free to ignore the thread if it's annoying you.
		
Click to expand...

Only when the tories are in the spotlight.

Same principles he quoted could of used on Brexit, GE or many other threads over the years, but never a whisper.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's a discussion board. Would you rather no one commented?

Feel free to ignore the thread if it's annoying you.
		
Click to expand...

Do you read and digest anything before replying.  I didnt suggest no one should comment but give it a break, surely you've convinced yourself of your opinion by now. Rather than annoy it's quite interesting.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			And no one EVER changes their opinion 😂🤣
		
Click to expand...

Doesent seem like it.


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## Pin-seeker (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Doesent seem like it.
		
Click to expand...

Honestly how many times on here av you seen someone say your know what,you might be right’?
It doesn’t happen,they just keep making the same points over & over again & get their knickers in a twist 🤷‍♂️🤣🤣


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Only when the tories are in the spotlight.

Same principles he quoted could of used on Brexit, GE or many other threads over the years, but never a whisper.

Click to expand...

I spent too much time on the Brexit thread answering the same old accusations over and over.  

I dont give a toss about the Tories being in the spotlight, it matters not a fig to me.   You on the other hand....


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## Beezerk (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Typical tory apologist post.
View attachment 30825

Click to expand...

You could set your watch to your replies 😆
#likeclockwork


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Many disagree on these threads, as in life, but I’d rather discuss/debate/argue with someone who does have principles/beliefs and sticks to them, no matter how much I disagree with them, than the posters who come on and add nothing to the thread apart from trying to look clever and whiter than white.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			You could set your watch to your replies 😆
#likeclockwork
		
Click to expand...

It’s easy when the same people post the same nonsense, the responses are lined up.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2020)

Calderwood had the support of Sturgeon and most of the country until she mentioned the second visit [which no one seemed to know about]
She had to go after that.
Fool me once etc.
BTW Viceroy Jacks trip back to his home under a similar situation to Cummings never received the scrutiny it should have done.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Anyway, back on track, really good to see the report this morning that the NI Parties have said this crisis has brought them closer together and proves they can work together.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you read and digest anything before replying.  I didnt suggest no one should comment but give it a break, surely you've convinced yourself of your opinion by now. Rather than annoy it's quite interesting.
		
Click to expand...

You've always got to get a little dig in, haven't you?

I thought you might have learned a bit of a lesson last night, but it seems self-awareness is not your strong point.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			You've always got to get a little dig in, haven't you?

I thought you might have learned a bit of a lesson last night, but it seems self-awareness is not your strong point.
		
Click to expand...

Quite inappropriate but I expect little else.


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

Peston saying Cummings is a goner 

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-05-24/dominic-cummings-departure-only-matter-of-time-robert-peston/


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you read and digest anything before replying.  I didnt suggest no one should comment but give it a break, surely you've convinced yourself of your opinion by now....
		
Click to expand...

'Oi Mr Kettle! Your tan is looking superb!
But I'm inclined to believe you (and Drdel) are simply trying to suppress legitimate criticism of the Government and their 'hangers-on'!

And....
Warning 'Dodgy English criticism alert'....
I'm more interested in the number of different ways the word 'of' can be misused (not by you btw)!


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## Imurg (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Iain Blackford “it’s as clear as mud that Dominic Cummings has broken the rules”

Twice he’s said it in this interview, what an idiot! This is one of the SNP’s “big hitters” no wonder Nicola does all the briefings!
		
Click to expand...

Obviously the only qualification required to be an MP is to have enough people vote for you....having the vocabulary of a lettuce maybe comes next in the list.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			'Oi Mr Kettle! Your tan is looking superb!
But I'm inclined to believe you (and Drdel) are simply trying to suppress legitimate criticism of the Government and their 'hangers-on'!

And....
Warning 'Dodgy English criticism alert'....
I'm more interested in the number of different ways the word 'of' can be misused (not by you btw)!
		
Click to expand...

Suppress legitimate criticism. Hmm, that's interesting  Could your comment be considered as attempting to suppress my legitimate criticism.  
I have nothing to gain or lose from Government criticism, it's actually interesting to see the way the media do it although at times very brutal.  

Trust you to of (I mean have) noticed a grammatical error, at least I have a let out clause in my signature.


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## drdel (May 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			'Oi Mr Kettle! Your tan is looking superb!
But I'm inclined to believe you (and Drdel) are simply trying to suppress legitimate criticism of the Government and their 'hangers-on'!

And....
Warning 'Dodgy English criticism alert'....
I'm more interested in the number of different ways the word 'of' can be misused (not by you btw)!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I do not know the TRUTH and neither do you . I am apologising for no-one. My posts are to suggest that before lynching the guy perhaps there may be mitigation and/or fabrication.

Example: the press assert the police called on the family, they did not. Cummings senior rang the Police and explained the situation which they accepted and then discussed security matters.
The second trip is based on a couple who saw someone wearing a hat like DC and car with a similar Reg. We we don't know if the car and the couple sighted were connected of if it was DC.

When the evidence is there fine, until that I will keep my own council without any high handed, political stereotyping nudges or help from  equally uniformed others.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Honestly how many times on here av you seen someone say your know what,you might be right’?
It doesn’t happen,t*hey just keep making the same points over & over again *& get their knickers in a twist 🤷‍♂️🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

You do know you made the same point 2 posts earlier?


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Iain Blackford “it’s as clear as mud that Dominic Cummings has broken the rules”

Twice he’s said it in this interview, what an idiot! This is one of the SNP’s “big hitters” no wonder Nicola does all the briefings!
		
Click to expand...

yes not a fan, does more harm than good for the SNP some of the time


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			yes not a fan, does more harm than good for the SNP some of the time
		
Click to expand...

That could be said for almost all of them.

Edit - just realised that could be read as a dig at the SNP. By "almost all" I meant from all parties.


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## PaulS (May 24, 2020)

it’s bank holiday weekend , the sun is shining , the golf courses are open - relax and take a break.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Suppress legitimate criticism. Hmm, that's interesting  Could your comment be considered as attempting to suppress my legitimate criticism. 
...
		
Click to expand...

It could indeed. But so could that comment about mine! As could.... ad nauseum!


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Errm.....? 

Click to expand...

Come visit English ones then! Contact your local Conservative association for a list of excuses legitimate reasons to do so!


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## spongebob59 (May 24, 2020)

Seems they have parked a truck with a large screen , looping some video montage s, wonder who organised that , Ch 4 ?


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## spongebob59 (May 24, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264529136741240834


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2020)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264529136741240834

Click to expand...

Doesn't look like County Durham to me.


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## PaulS (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Errm.....? 

Click to expand...

My apologies to our Scottish Neighbours , Home of a Golf will be open soon 😁


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## AmandaJR (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I fear you may be waiting a long time.
		
Click to expand...

Well that's a matter of opinion. Personally I went from thinking Boris was a bit of a buffoon (preferred Jeremy Hunt) to being quite impressed with him early on in this crisis. I doubt there's a connection but since he was ill things have gone awry and he's way too absent for my liking.


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## AmandaJR (May 24, 2020)

Well done Boris - leading the briefing.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It could indeed. But so could that comment about mine! As could.... ad nauseum! 

Click to expand...

Theres a difference. Yours was an accusation while mine was a question. 

EDIT: Sorry forgot the 🙄


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Well done Boris - leading the briefing. 

Click to expand...

Jeez, I'm fed up of seeing him all the time at the moment, he's always on TV and in the media, leading from the front just as a proper leader should be.  I know this is a crisis and we are not handling it very well, but wouldn't it be good of him to may be step away from the spotlight a bit, and give one of his other cabinet minsters a chance to do these briefings? There is a danger of over exposure that he needs to be careful of.

So what so we expect, bluff and bluster to protect Cummings?  Or will he do the right thing to try and rebuild trust in his government and their handling of the crisis?


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Still wonder why they hung on for 2 months to bring this up and n this day of smartphones why no pictures of the second trip or the visit on the first trip aren't all over the media. There's a fortune out there for a happy snapper.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jeez, I'm fed up of seeing him all the time at the moment, he's always on TV and in the media, leading from the front just as a proper leader should be.  I know this is a crisis and we are not handling it very well, but wouldn't it be good of him to may be step away from the spotlight a bit, and give one of his other cabinet minsters a chance to do these briefings? There is a danger of over exposure that he needs to be careful of.
*
So what so we expect, bluff and bluster to protect Cummings?  Or will he do the right thing to try and rebuild trust in his government and their handling of the crisis?*

Click to expand...

You little tinker, you're being sarcastic again 🤭
Let's wait and see, seems the best plan.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Best tweet of the day from Piers Morgan stated that he has blocked all ministers who supported Cummings trip from his twitter account


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

If the press made it up about the second visit and the beauty spot visit they will have saved Cummings.

First Minister saying BJ should get Cummings to resign is this the same First Minister that refused to sack her Chief Health Officer.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			S*till wonder why they hung on for 2 months to bring this up* and n this day of smartphones why no pictures of the second trip or the visit on the first trip aren't all over the media. There's a fortune out there for a happy snapper.
		
Click to expand...

Think this has been answered a few posts back, the papers were trying to get comments from No 10 and were not able to. Then the police confirmed their story so they published.

As for it being captured on smart phones then may be there was hardly anyone out and about to capture it. As most people were following his governments advice to stay at home.  Well I say most people, obviously there are a few exceptions who had a magic pass out.....


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think this has been answered a few posts back, the papers were trying to get comments from No 10 and were not able to. Then the police confirmed their story so they published.

As for it being captured on smart phones then may be there was hardly anyone out and about to capture it. As most people were following his governments advice to stay at home. Well I say most people, obviously there are a few exceptions who had a magic pass out.....
		
Click to expand...

So were the few who are making the claims breaking the rules as wel


----------



## User62651 (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Iain Blackford “it’s as clear as mud that Dominic Cummings has broken the rules”

Twice he’s said it in this interview, what an idiot! This is one of the SNP’s “big hitters” no wonder Nicola does all the briefings!
		
Click to expand...

Not keen on him as a speaker, even when he makes salient points, the delivery is overcooked and always faux-offended/indignant tone. Shame Angus Robertson couldn't keep his seat, much better in Commons and in media imo. People get their words mixed up, we all do it but when you're in the public eye trying to score political points it falls very flat when any message, particularly delivered with intended 'oomph' through simile or metaphor, is muddled up. 
Of others I quite like Humza Yousseff but he gets outmanouvered in political debates and I think they feel his ability is limited. Where's Stewart Hosie these days, decent communicator?


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Theres a difference. Yours was an accusation while mine was a question.
...
		
Click to expand...


So my 'I'm inclined to believe..' comment becomes an 'accusation'? Wow! Just Wow!


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Well done Boris - leading the briefing. 

Click to expand...

Well done for doing his job?


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Well done for doing his job?
		
Click to expand...

Fail


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Fail
		
Click to expand...

He has already, defending Cummings


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## DanFST (May 24, 2020)

So he's stood by his man. 

If I was a Journo i would be scoring every cctv camera. If you find proof of another incident regarding Mr Cummings you have a fair case that the PM's Judgement cannot be trusted.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:




So my 'I'm inclined to believe..' comment becomes an 'accusation'? Wow! Just Wow!
		
Click to expand...

*"But I'm inclined to believe you (and Drdel) are simply trying to suppress legitimate criticism of the Government and their 'hangers-on'!"*
If it looks like an accusation and is meant as an accusation then it probably is an accusation.

Oh! and better not forget the 🙄 . Wont do the other ones as they are a bit silly.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

DanFST said:



			So he's stood by his man. 

If I was a Journo i would be scoring every cctv camera. If you find proof of another incident regarding Mr Cummings you have a fair case that the PM's Judgement cannot be trusted.
		
Click to expand...

Is Cummings his man or is Boris Cummings mouth piece ? If he was just an aide he would be sacked.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2020)

...Cummings acted with integrity...😂😂😂


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

DanFST said:



			So he's stood by his man.

If I was a Journo i would be scoring every cctv camera. If you find proof of another incident regarding Mr Cummings you have a fair case that the PM's Judgement cannot be trusted.
		
Click to expand...

If no proof of this second trip or the visit BJ will be able to turn it on its head, if something is proven Cummings is finished and BJ will be gone mid 2021


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## DanFST (May 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is Cummings his man or is Boris Cummings mouth piece ? If he was just an aide he would be sacked.
		
Click to expand...

I posted previously, he must have enough dirt on various MP's. 

You make a public hurrah about sacking him, and then have him in a consultant by proxy otherwise.


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is Cummings his man or is Boris Cummings mouth piece ? If he was just an aide he would be sacked.
		
Click to expand...

Well that just can’t be true. We in this country don’t like being ruled by unelected bureaucrats 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Well done for doing his job?
		
Click to expand...

A job he has been failing miserably in doing given communication is key to the job and he has not been communicating.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A job he has been failing miserably in doing given communication is key to the job and he has not been communicating.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. He is a terrible pm


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

Penny is a Tory plant. Is that really the most important question the public wants to know?


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			"*But I'm inclined to believe* you (and Drdel) are simply trying to suppress legitimate criticism of the Government and their 'hangers-on'!"
If it looks like an accusation *and is meant as an accusation *then it probably is an accusation.
		
Click to expand...


Are you a mind reader?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2020)

Five bob says Johnson refuses to answer questions on Cummings, or deflects.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Five bob says Johnson refuses to answer questions on Cummings, or deflects.
		
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As I've already answered this but in summary he acted lawfully by breaking the law in traveling to drop off his child when there was no other option well apart from his sister just down the road.

He got a right telling off.. well I think that's what he told me to say


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

My instinct as a father is to take my daughter round to all her friends house so they can hang out together.  She is really missing her friends and stats show that chances are she will not catch it, or even if she does she wil most probably be fine.  So assume that's now OK?


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Penny is a Tory plant. Is that really the most important question the public wants to know?
		
Click to expand...

I am hoping they socially distance when they all come together ... oh hang on a moment 😉


I thought the sign language guy was brilliant the faces were above and beyond .. he did not pinch his nose and waft his hand though


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Five bob* says Johnson refuses to answer questions on Cummings, or deflects.
		
Click to expand...

Confirming the rumour about miserly/living in the past Scots?


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

Minor point but he did not have any child care when he was up in the North East.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

I honestly do not think Boris believes what he is saying.


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## PaulS (May 24, 2020)

In the grand scheme of things it’s pretty irrelevant and seems to overshadow the news that we appear to be ready to go into Phase 2 of easing of lockdown which means we could well be able to play in 4balls soon.

We all know what Boris Johnson is like and it’s no surprise he backed his man


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## DanFST (May 24, 2020)

Driving around the country is now confirmed as self isolation by the PM. Good for everyone else, crap for the police.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			There appears to be smoke coming from the prime minister's pants.
		
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Starting to get tetchy. But at least he stood up there and took the flak.


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			There appears to be smoke coming from the prime minister's pants.
		
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I believe that is not a symptom of coved 19, just normal for Boris “hot pants” Johnson


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Driving around the country is now confirmed as self isolation by the PM. Good for everyone else, crap for the police.
		
Click to expand...

If you lived near a beach you would know this has been the case for a few weeks.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:




Are you a mind reader?
		
Click to expand...

Stop trying to deflect.
If you say that you are inclined to believe something I assume you believe it and if that belief is that I am simply trying to suppress legitimate criticism of Government and their 'hangers on'  and you then present that belief to me I can only take it that you have accused me of that very belief.
You can try to wriggle as much as you like but the facts stand there for all to see.

I know you will continue to deflect but as far as I'm concerned its cut and dry so I'm not interested in discussing it further.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2020)

Johnson didn’t answer the question about Cummings going to Barnard Castle so we can take it that he did go.  Johnson would have asked Cummings and Cummings would have said yes or no. If he had said no then Johnson would have told us.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			...I assume...
		
Click to expand...


Now there's the problem!


SocketRocket said:



			...I'm not interested in discussing it further.
		
Click to expand...

Great! I never intended to 'discuss it' in the first place! It was mere disclosure of (inclination towards) opinion!


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Boris really losing his cool today .. 

Just keep repeating I'm sure any other person would do the same in his position .. (but u can't)

And then when everyone says they don't agree just say well someone will


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2020)

i notice he was asked twice now about Barnard Castle and both times he avoided answering..??


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson didn’t answer the question about Cummings going to Barnard Castle so we can take it that he did go.  Johnson would have asked Cummings and Cummings would have said yes or no. If he had said no then Johnson would have told us.
		
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How can you take it he did go, do you know something and have proof, get it out there.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

Can I just say on behalf of schools trying to open up to get kids back into education, thanks Boris for ensuring that parents and staff have a complete lack of trust in anything the government do and say now. Really helpful....


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I just say on behalf of schools trying to open up to get kids back into education, thanks Boris for ensuring that parents and staff have a complete lack of trust in anything the government do and say now. Really helpful....
		
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Didnt know you were the Spokesperson for Schools trying to open. Congratulations on the new role.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i notice he was asked twice now about Barnard Castle and both times he avoided answering..??
		
Click to expand...

Once reporters asked the same question time and time again he just moved on. Why don't journalists learn that if a politician doesn't want to give the answer they want its not going to happen. Waste of an opportunity to ask other searching questions.


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## PaulS (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Didnt know you were the Spokesperson for Schools trying to open. Congratulations on the new role.
		
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I have noticed you are particularly snidey with people who share a different opinion as yourself.


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## Rlburnside (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Penny is a Tory plant. Is that really the most important question the public wants to know?
		
Click to expand...

That’s what I thought, only 2 questions from the public and no questions about Cummings


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

PaulS said:



			I have noticed you are particularly snidey with people who share a different opinion as yourself.
		
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Havent you noticed that's the way it goes here. Just read some of the posts from people that dont like Boris or Cummings.  Mines quite mild.


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## User62651 (May 24, 2020)

Anyone still think Boris is in charge?


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2020)

I think someone in the Civil Service will be getting their P45 tomorrow......





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264600481688702977
EDIT - unsurprisingly the tweet has now been deleted.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			That’s what I thought, only 2 questions from the public and no questions about Cummings
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps the public realized that would be pointless. The questions are picked by an independent body although there may be some who will refuse to believe that.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			That’s what I thought, only 2 questions from the public and no questions about Cummings
		
Click to expand...

The questions from the public don't get through straight away

I asked one before you ask it then within 3 days if it's going to be used your contacted to do a video or opt to have someone read it

Their questions on Cummings won't be ready and also won't make it


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## doublebogey7 (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I honestly do not think Boris believes what he is saying.
		
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Not sure if ever does😱


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I just say on behalf of schools trying to open up to get kids back into education, thanks Boris for ensuring that parents and staff have a complete lack of trust in anything the government do and say now. Really helpful....
		
Click to expand...

Kind of puts it better than I can. Trust matters in global pandemics. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264606173212409857


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## rudebhoy (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Quite inappropriate but I expect little else.
		
Click to expand...

There you go again.

I'm not the only one on here to comment on your fondness for having a dig at other posters. And before you start pointing at others, yes, other folk do it occasionally, but with you its like a default behaviour.

It's not doing you any favours. Please don't take this the wrong way as I am trying to be helpful, but it might be a good time for you to have a think about your posting style.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

I’ve had nothing but praise for the way this government handled this crisis, don’t believe any other party would of done any better given the circumstances, yes there has been hiccups along the way and yes lessons will be learnt if, god forbid, we had to face anything like this again.

Unfortunately, the cummings saga will overshadow a lot of that good work and the trust the majority of the people put in to this government when we were put in lockdown and told what was expected and how our behaviour was to change.

Obviously this will be over the top for some on here, but right now I genuinely feel more let down by the johnson brief than cumming’s behaviour.


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## spongebob59 (May 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you lived near a beach you would know this has been the case for a few weeks.
		
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And they come armed with jet skis judging by the racket this weekend.


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## NearHull (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of puts it better than I can. Trust matters in global pandemics. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264606173212409857

Click to expand...

Boris has made a complete Horlicks of this issue.  I really don’t understand how as a politician he believes that his stance is going to satisfy the public.  It felt that he had forgotten that government in this country is by consent enacted by ‘popular vote‘ (figuratively speaking).  It seemed to have a whiff of dictatorship, in the context of “the bosses can do what they want whilst the plebs do as they are told“.

However did you see Robert Peston’s reaction when they mistakenly went back to him after he failed to get an opportunity for a follow up question. Epic!

There will be a backlash, it may even be the beginning of the end for Boris.


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## PaulS (May 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Havent you noticed that's the way it goes here. Just read some of the posts from people that dont like Boris or Cummings.  Mines quite mild.
		
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But those posts are aimed towards Johnson and Cummings and neither are on the forum where as your posts are aimed at the posters. Are you offended on behalf of Johnson and Cummins ?


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

NearHull said:



			Boris has made a complete Horlicks of this issue.  I really don’t understand how as a politician he believes that his stance is going to satisfy the public.  It felt that he had forgotten that government in this country is by consent enacted by ‘popular vote‘ (figuratively speaking).  It seemed to have a whiff of dictatorship, in the context of “the bosses can do what they want whilst the plebs do as they are told“.

However did you see Robert Peston’s reaction when they mistakenly went back to him after he failed to get an opportunity for a follow up question. Epic!

*There will be a backlash, it may even be the beginning of the end for Boris*.
		
Click to expand...

Weird thing is that I hope it isn't.  As with the economic ravages caused by Covid 19 and then Brexit on its way, the last thing the country needs now is another prolonged internal Tory party psychodrama whilst they try and decide again what they stand for.


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## 2blue (May 24, 2020)

NearHull said:



			Boris has made a complete Horlicks of this issue. * I really don’t understand how as a politician he believes that his stance is going to satisfy the public*.  It felt that he had forgotten that government in this country is by consent enacted by ‘popular vote‘ (figuratively speaking).  It seemed to have a whiff of dictatorship, in the context of “the bosses can do what they want whilst the plebs do as they are told“.

However did you see Robert Peston’s reaction when they mistakenly went back to him after he failed to get an opportunity for a follow up question. Epic!

There will be a backlash, it may even be the beginning of the end for Boris.
		
Click to expand...

Because he's been doing it & getting away with it for years.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)




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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2020)

The Tories are renowned for eating themselves.
Three PM's in less than 4 years another one coming soon [imvho]
Banana  republic territory


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Weird thing is that I hope it isn't.  As with the economic ravages caused by Covid 19 and then Brexit on its way, the last thing the country needs now is another prolonged internal Tory party psychodrama whilst they try and decide again what they stand for.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, what we need is a steady solid government to keep us going over the next few years while the Country in every aspect starts to recover from this, the damage to lives, business’s etc isn’t going to be fixed by the wave of a magic wand, we’ve got some tough times ahead and the last thing we need is another horlicks in the HoC’s.


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

It is a dictatorship.. they hold a majority... some of you voted them in ... this is what you voted for, suck it up and get on with it! 
Those of us who didn’t are completely entitled to bleat, whinge and take the mick 👍🙂 ... I do so in the knowledge it has no affect.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Tories are renowned for eating themselves.
Three PM's in less than 4 years another one coming soon [imvho]
Banana  republic territory
		
Click to expand...

Anyone that thinks Boris is at the beginning of the end is barking up the wrong tree, he has more front Blackpool Beach.


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Exactly, what we need is a steady solid government to keep us going over the next few years while the Country in every aspect starts to recover from this, the damage to lives, business’s etc isn’t going to be fixed by the wave of a magic wand, we’ve got some tough times ahead and the last thing we need is another horlicks in the HoC’s.
		
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There is no room they have a majority, those dissenters will be reminded of their meal ticket and will wet themselves


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think someone in the Civil Service will be getting their P45 tomorrow......

View attachment 30835



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264600481688702977
EDIT - unsurprisingly the tweet has now been deleted.
		
Click to expand...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			There is no room they have a majority, those dissenters will be reminded of their meal ticket and will wet themselves
		
Click to expand...

Majority or not, we still don’t need other distractions, but I understand what you’re saying.


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Majority or not, we still don’t need other distractions, but I understand what you’re saying.

Click to expand...

I personally wouldn’t look forward to seeing Rees Mogg plodding in my direction...


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## NearHull (May 24, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			There is no room they have a majority, those dissenters will be reminded of their meal ticket and will wet themselves
		
Click to expand...

I agree that the majority will not be overturned, but there is always a possibility of ano confidence vote in the Tory Leadership.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I personally wouldn’t look forward to seeing Rees Mogg plodding in my direction...
		
Click to expand...

We’re only 6 months in to a 5 year term, it’s not the government I want, but I do want the best for all the Country over that time.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Poor old BBC reporter, couldn't use the equipment so social distancing went out the window. Wonder if he gets the sack.


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

NearHull said:



			I agree that the majority will not be overturned, but there is always a possibility of ano confidence vote in the Tory Leadership.
		
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I feel Boris talked Brexit up, he should deliver it ... I am not sure there are others in that party who could lead it or would want to lead ( Gove being the exception.. but he struggles with the truth and is a bungling clown )


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2020)

PaulS said:



			But those posts are aimed towards Johnson and Cummings and neither are on the forum where as your posts are aimed at the posters. Are you offended on behalf of Johnson and Cummins ?
		
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just like this Tory shower in power its one rule for them and another for anyone else, this poster is no different, they can make snide digs and insult who they like, when the shoe is on the other foot, they don't like it and make a point of moaning about it as much as possible


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So a ready made like for like replacement?
		
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Who Gove? I dunno hasn’t he back stabbed everyone?


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2020)

Ah better wind the anti Tory rhetoric back ...


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Poor old BBC reporter, couldn't use the equipment so social distancing went out the window. Wonder if he gets the sack. 

Click to expand...

I guess it would depend on who it was that was helping him. If it was a member of his own household then he hasn't done anything wrong.


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I guess it would depend on who it was that was helping him. If it was a member of his own household then he hasn't done anything wrong.
		
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what about if someone traveled 260 miles with the virus, but did it because they had child care issues IE the nanny had a day off, would that be OK?


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## AmandaJR (May 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Poor old BBC reporter, couldn't use the equipment so social distancing went out the window. Wonder if he gets the sack. 

Click to expand...

When his IT guy switched off the mute button he made some dig "at least I haven't been permanently silenced" - what a dingbat!


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2020)




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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I guess it would depend on who it was that was helping him. If it was a member of his own household then he hasn't done anything wrong.
		
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Nepotism in the BBC, surly not, he was in the studio


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## SatchFan (May 24, 2020)

People in my street have been turning up maskless in their droves today to meet friends and relatives. Air pollution is well up with all the barbecues going. From what I can hear the PM's dealings with Dominic Cummings are the last thing on their mind.


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## Mudball (May 24, 2020)

SatchFan said:



			People in my street have been turning up maskless in their droves today to meet friends and relatives. Air pollution is well up with all the barbecues going. From what I can hear the PM's dealings with Dominic Cummings are the last thing on their mind.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like a Tory street then..


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			As I've already answered this but in summary he acted lawfully by breaking the law in traveling to drop off his child when *there was no other option well apart from his sister just down the road.*

He got a right telling off.. well I think that's what he told me to say
		
Click to expand...

How do you know that his sister down the road is a suitable option?  I certainly don't have any more to do with mine than I have to, and I know of others in similar positions.

Just because she is family does not automatically make her suitable.


For clarity for the pedants & trolls, this is not a defence of any actions Dominic Cummings may or may not have taken;  I'd merely like to know why just because you share DNA with someone you're automatically on speaking terms with them.


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## SatchFan (May 24, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Looks like a Tory street then..
		
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Certainly a Tory area but without wishing to Labour the point they are being Liberal with their ignorance and belligerence.


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## North Mimms (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Apart from all the lies and gaslighting and likely negative impact on public compliance with the rules, it just seems like a massive political blunder. This isn't going away and now Boris has linked his own credibility (such as it was) to Cummings. Bizarre.
		
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I actually would have had more respect for Johnson if he'd said Cummings clearly broke the lockdown rules, but stuff it, he's staying.
How Boris managed his closing statement of "stay at home if you have symptoms" is beyond me. 

I'm looking forward to hearing the former Director of Public Prosecution comment of the legal position.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			How do you know that his sister down the road is a suitable option?  I certainly don't have any more to do with mine than I have to, and I know of others in similar positions.

Just because she is family does not automatically make her suitable.


For clarity for the pedants & trolls, this is not a defence of any actions Dominic Cummings may or may not have taken;  I'd merely like to know why just because you share DNA with someone you're automatically on speaking terms with them.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure there would be many other options before a drive 260 miles defying the law.

Which "allegedly" he broke a further couple times without childcare involved , the pm side stepped that question.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...st-doubt-on-dominic-cummingss-lockdown-claims


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## road2ruin (May 24, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			I actually would have had more respect for Johnson if he'd said Cummings clearly broke the lockdown rules, but stuff it, he's staying.
How Boris managed his closing statement of "stay at home if you have symptoms" is beyond me.

I'm looking forward to hearing the former Director of Public Prosecution comment of the legal position.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, someone in the No10 comms dept has really dropped a bollock here. Why didn’t they get in front of this straight away and say that they were aware of the Durham trip and the reasoning was the child issue. Instead there’s been a huge coverup which has made thing entire episode looking terrible (which it was).


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2020)

SatchFan said:



			People in my street have been turning up maskless in their droves today to meet friends and relatives. Air pollution is well up with all the barbecues going. From what I can hear the PM's dealings with Dominic Cummings are the last thing on their mind.
		
Click to expand...

Report them. It’s so clearly the right thing to do.


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## North Mimms (May 24, 2020)

Couldn't Rees-Mogg have loaned him Nanny for a few days?


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## AmandaJR (May 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			How do you know that his sister down the road is a suitable option?  I certainly don't have any more to do with mine than I have to, and I know of others in similar positions.

Just because she is family does not automatically make her suitable.


For clarity for the pedants & trolls, this is not a defence of any actions Dominic Cummings may or may not have taken;  I'd merely like to know why just because you share DNA with someone you're automatically on speaking terms with them.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed. For all we know she would be the last person he'd allow to care for his child.

It seems odd that they have no network of friends in London who could help but...then again...how could they expect them to expose themselves and their family to the virus.

It must be the gaslighting but I'm coming around to his side and also Boris standing firm and not allowing a kangaroo court to force his hand.


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## drdel (May 24, 2020)

The rush to condem is quite sad. There has been numerous cases of press allegations turning out to be false: they pay compensation and move to the next vendetta without a blink or ounce of care for the person wronged.

I'd venture to say no-one knows exactly what has transpired and yet lynchers are now prepared to string up the PM without a shred of evidence he lied. The exact reason DC did what he did is unkown. For example he is not stupid and there is always the possibility that he, his wife or his young son have medical conditions that meant he needed the potential to call upon family support. Pure speculation on my part but there could be a host of other private and confidential reasons behind the actions that are no business of outsiders. He, as everyone, is entitled to the benefit of being believed. If he is proven wrong he should accept the consequences in the meantime my judgement is reserved.

We can all see that the media have decided he has to go; if they succeed in trial by the press We should be worried, natural justice will be the price.


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## road2ruin (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			The rush to condem is quite sad. There has been numerous cases of press allegations turning out to be false: they pay compensation and move to the next vendetta without a blink or ounce of care for the person wronged.

I'd venture to say no-one knows exactly what has transpired and yet lynchers are now prepared to string up the PM without a shred of evidence he lied. The exact reason DC did what he did is unkown. For example he is not stupid and there is always the possibility that he, his wife or his young son have medical conditions that meant he needed the potential to call upon family support. Pure speculation on my part but there could be a host of other private and confidential reasons behind the actions that are no business of outsiders. He, as everyone, is entitled to the benefit of being believed. If he is proven wrong he should accept the consequences in the meantime my judgement is reserved.

We can all see that the media have decided he has to go; if they succeed in trial by the press We should be worried, natural justice will be the price.
		
Click to expand...

I would agree with the tendency for the people to jump all over others without evidence but there are things about this which are really odd. 

His wife wrote subsequent articles in the Spectator and in none of those did they mention the trip to Durham. They were lighthearted and the entire experience seems to have been enjoyable. She implies in one particle article that they were still in London at the end of their quarantine. In my opinion they new exactly what they were up to and have tried to hide it.


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## PaulS (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			The rush to condem is quite sad. There has been numerous cases of press allegations turning out to be false: they pay compensation and move to the next vendetta without a blink or ounce of care for the person wronged.

I'd venture to say no-one knows exactly what has transpired and yet lynchers are now prepared to string up the PM without a shred of evidence he lied. The exact reason DC did what he did is unkown. For example he is not stupid and there is always the possibility that he, his wife or his young son have medical conditions that meant he needed the potential to call upon family support. Pure speculation on my part but there could be a host of other private and confidential reasons behind the actions that are no business of outsiders. He, as everyone, is entitled to the benefit of being believed. If he is proven wrong he should accept the consequences in the meantime my judgement is reserved.

We can all see that the media have decided he has to go; if they succeed in trial by the press We should be worried, natural justice will be the price.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not just the press though is it 

Lots of MP’s have come out today and stated how they feel about it all and it’s not positive , many of the general public are appalled by it .

Many of us can’t travel 2 miles to see parents or children yet he drives up all the way the country 

He is a key worker , there are a number of options open for him to gain childcare. 

It’s quite clear it’s all opinion based j political bias - if it was an Labour “aide” then I have no doubt the response would be remarkably different with a number of people. 

The PM gave a very strong message a couple of months ago and the public followed it - it’s a shame his own staff couldn’t


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## SatchFan (May 24, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Report them. It’s so clearly the right thing to do.
		
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You're probably right KF, but I'm seriously outnumbered. If I could do it anonymously I would but I reckon they would guess it was me by a process of elimination. As I'm not looking to move for at least 20 years I think I will have to remain the silent minority.


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## User62651 (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			The rush to condem is quite sad. There has been numerous cases of press allegations turning out to be false: they pay compensation and move to the next vendetta without a blink or ounce of care for the person wronged.

I'd venture to say no-one knows exactly what has transpired and yet lynchers are now prepared to string up the PM without a shred of evidence he lied. The exact reason DC did what he did is unkown. For example he is not stupid and there is always the possibility that he, his wife or his young son have medical conditions that meant he needed the potential to call upon family support. Pure speculation on my part but there could be a host of other private and confidential reasons behind the actions that are no business of outsiders. He, as everyone, is entitled to the benefit of being believed. If he is proven wrong he should accept the consequences in the meantime my judgement is reserved.

*We can all see that the media have decided he has to go; if they succeed in trial by the press We should be worried, natural justice will be the price.*

Click to expand...

Not just the media, an awful lot of Tory voters and MPs too who can see through the BS, even if you choose to ignore it. The Conservative party benefit hugely from favourable press, far more than other political parties. Moaning about the press is a bit rich. This stuff happended late March when people were in serious fear and in serious lockdown. Cummings ignored his official advice to suit, cared not about spreading the virus into the NE and that for a political figure is a resignation issue, he should not even have brought Boris Johnson into this mess.
Durham police now have new official complaints to deal with. Hundreds have died there. This is serious. Cummings arrogance only makes it worse.


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



*How do you know that his sister down the road is a suitable option? * I certainly don't have any more to do with mine than I have to, and I know of others in similar positions.

Just because she is family does not automatically make her suitable.


For clarity for the pedants & trolls, this is not a defence of any actions Dominic Cummings may or may not have taken;  I'd merely like to know why just because you share DNA with someone you're automatically on speaking terms with them.
		
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pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure there would be many other options before a drive 260 miles defying the law.

Which "allegedly" he broke a further couple times without childcare involved , *the pm* *side stepped that question*.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...st-doubt-on-dominic-cummingss-lockdown-claims

Click to expand...

Bit like the way you side stepped the question above then; does that make you as bad as Boris then?


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Indeed. For all we know she would be the last person he'd allow to care for his child.

*It seems odd that they have no network of friends in London who could help but*...then again...how could they expect them to expose themselves and their family to the virus.

It must be the gaslighting but I'm coming around to his side and also Boris standing firm and not allowing a kangaroo court to force his hand.
		
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If he is as much the anti-Christ as he is being painted, I'd be surprised if he had any friends at all Amanda.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Poor cummings, nope, not for me.

He knew exactly what he was doing and his wife was complicit.

Quite easily clear his name by proving his whereabouts on the dates mentioned.

Instead they’ll spin it until the nasty media (who he has used and abused for years) become the guilty party.

Sue the media, call out the witness’s or simply hide behind his spineless boss.

Slightly pedantic, his wife doesn’t have any sisters, she has 3 brothers, 1 of which lives in London, but that does not alter the thoughts or comments on people trusting family or not.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Bit like the way you side stepped the question above then; does that make you as bad as Boris then? 

Click to expand...

Just because she's family no it doesn't make her automically a choice however who looks after his child normally? Is it just his wife? No help around at all? No friends that would help?

So the ONLY option was somebody 260 miles away when we must ALL stay at home. Stay safe . Protect the NHS 

Im sure a grown man could sort something quicker than it would have taken him to drive to Durham


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## User62651 (May 24, 2020)

Even the Daily Mail sensing the public dismay -


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
We can all see that the media have decided he has to go; if they succeed in trial by the press We should be worried, *natural justice will be the price.*

Click to expand...

Wrong (imo) in this case! *Natural justice will be the winner*!


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## Backache (May 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			The rush to condem is quite sad. There has been numerous cases of press allegations turning out to be false: they pay compensation and move to the next vendetta without a blink or ounce of care for the person wronged.

I'd venture to say no-one knows exactly what has transpired and yet lynchers are now prepared to string up the PM without a shred of evidence he lied. The exact reason DC did what he did is unkown. For example he is not stupid and there is always the possibility that he, his wife or his young son have medical conditions that meant he needed the potential to call upon family support. Pure speculation on my part but there could be a host of other private and confidential reasons behind the actions that are no business of outsiders. He, as everyone, is entitled to the benefit of being believed. If he is proven wrong he should accept the consequences in the meantime my judgement is reserved.

We can all see that the media have decided he has to go; if they succeed in trial by the press We should be worried, natural justice will be the price.
		
Click to expand...

The nature of risk and trust in a lockdown is that you are asking a huge number of people to undertake a great many privations which are often of little benefit to themselves in order to benefit the rest of society. Young people who a great virtually no risk to themselves of serious disease are losing jobs and unable to see their friends . Many others are unable to visit dying relatives.
Many millions of people in this country have acted highly altruistically in order to support others this has been policy implemented by and actions demanded by the government.
In order to maintain support for these actions and others in the future it is vital that they retain the confidence of the public. If their own favoured ones are seen to be flouting the rules this support will be lost.
If Cummings has a genuine and legitimate reason for his actions the Prime Minister has to be absolutely clear . If there is a medical condition he needs to state this he need not state what it is.
Without such clear statement his actions appear selfcentered and arrogant and he will lose public confidencs at a time when he has to retain it. This is not the doing of the press it is the awful communication and obfustication by Cummings and the government.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have seen a few Piers Morgan tweets I've agreed with over the last few days and now a front page on that rag.... I'm starting to worry about my moral compass 

Seriously, though, if the tories have even lost the DM they're in trouble
		
Click to expand...

Tonight was true test of government 

Cummings has had far too much power for a while. Sajid Javid told he could only stay on as chancellor if he sacked his advisors and hired ones Cummings had picked. To his credit javid resigned. Massive respect to him. Could have just kept the job.

If Boris had sacked him it would be a true statement of nobody is above the government. Cummings is unelected so we can do bugger all about him being in the position he is. Boris has shown the puppet master must be obeyed.

The left moaned he should have gone but him staying has prob cost more faith in Boris' leadership than most of the other handlings so far.

Everything else that's been done wrong he has acted on advice, later , delayed, mistakes happen. This wasn't a mistake. Time was taken over this decision and it wasn't a hard one.

Well done Boris.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Even the Daily Mail sensing the public dismay -
View attachment 30842

Click to expand...

I'm now agreeing with The Daily Mail and Piers Morgan. 

Help me....


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Just because she's family no it doesn't make her automically a choice however who looks after his child normally? Is it just his wife? No help around at all? No friends that would help?

So the ONLY option was somebody 260 miles away when we must ALL stay at home. Stay safe . Protect the NHS

Im sure a grown man could sort something quicker than it would have taken him to drive to Durham
		
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More deflection from the original question; are you sure you're not Boris?


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm now agreeing with The Daily Mail and Piers Morgan.

Help me....
		
Click to expand...

Recently I have found myself agreeing with Hacker Khan, pauldj42 and DfT. 

Help me......


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			More deflection from the original question; are you sure you're not Boris?
		
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How on earth was that a deflection ? Or are you just deflecting because I answered your question and now you have nothing to add ... Standard


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## Mudball (May 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Recently I have found myself agreeing with Hacker Khan, pauldj42 and DfT.

Help me......



Click to expand...

The day you agree with SILH, then try injecting yourself with some Lysol...   Trump would approve of it.


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			How on earth was that a deflection ? Or are you just deflecting because I answered your question and now you have nothing to add ... Standard
		
Click to expand...

By asking questions & raising alternative scenarios to deflect from the fact that your statement that the sister was a suitable source of childcare was wrong.


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## pauljames87 (May 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			By asking questions & raising alternative scenarios to deflect from the fact that your statement that the sister was a suitable source of childcare was wrong.
		
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Have any facts that his sister wasn't a suitable choice? Or are you just basing on personal experience .....


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## Slab (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have seen a few Piers Morgan tweets I've agreed with over the last few days and now a front page on that rag.... I'm starting to worry about my moral compass 

Seriously, though, if the tories have even lost the DM they're in trouble
		
Click to expand...

I see the guy uses twitter like an addict but I thought he was well out of line using a picture of a child's funeral to make a point. Very insensitive & a bit twisted


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Recently I have found myself agreeing with Hacker Khan, pauldj42 and DfT.

Help me......



Click to expand...

Pretty sure I had a like from one of the UKIP types that is on my ignore list as well. Strange times....


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have seen a few Piers Morgan tweets I've agreed with over the last few days and now a front page on that rag.... I'm starting to worry about my moral compass 

*Seriously, though, if the tories have even lost the DM they're in trouble*

Click to expand...

Naa, the true test is if the usual suspects on this forum rebel. Then they really are screwed.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Even the Daily Mail sensing the public dismay -
View attachment 30842

Click to expand...

 how is anyone supposed to believe anything printed in this looney left wing rag?


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

Just seen the latest scrum as he left his house. Photographers scrapping for the best shot of Cummings leaving his house again (wow how interesting) - how the hell are they getting away with such blatant non social distancing?

He needs to fall on his sword and resign. Regardless of the wrongs and rights the damage he is doing now is surely enough to make that the right choice.


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## MegaSteve (May 25, 2020)

Though I am amazed DomCum still has a job I can't say I am surprised...


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## Wolf (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Just seen the latest scrum as he left his house. Photographers scrapping for the best shot of Cummings leaving his house again (wow how interesting) - how the hell are they getting away with such blatant non social distancing?

He needs to fall on his sword and resign. Regardless of the wrongs and rights the damage he is doing now is surely enough to make that the right choice.
		
Click to expand...

For me 100% he should go for his actions. 

But with regards the press they're missing an opportunity by behaving this way all for a sound bite. They could as easily get that by lining up using SD to highlight to Dom Cum they still follow rules unlike him, or better still all come together and not be there at all to effectively report unlike Cummings they believe in social distancing and are keeping their SD from him! 

Instead doing what they are now shows them in similar vein to him in that there is no regard for SD as long as they get the story. Plus any resignation now he can play the press hounded him card meaning government further retreat and only speak to their approved Journos. They're missing a huge opportunity here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2020)

Liked Johnson talk of how he understood fatherly instincts 🙄 - fathering instincts he most certainly does.😉


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Just seen the latest scrum as he left his house. Photographers scrapping for the best shot of Cummings leaving his house again (wow how interesting) - how the hell are they getting away with such blatant non social distancing?

He needs to fall on his sword and resign. Regardless of the wrongs and rights the damage he is doing now is surely enough to make that the right choice.
		
Click to expand...

Met Polis obviously too busy sorting out the surge of lockdown protesters. 
Perhaps they could bus down some Durham PC's to quell the mob.


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## clubchamp98 (May 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Tonight was true test of government

Cummings has had far too much power for a while. Sajid Javid told he could only stay on as chancellor if he sacked his advisors and hired ones Cummings had picked. To his credit javid resigned. Massive respect to him. Could have just kept the job.

If Boris had sacked him it would be a true statement of nobody is above the government. Cummings is unelected so we can do bugger all about him being in the position he is. Boris has shown the puppet master must be obeyed.

The left moaned he should have gone but him staying has prob cost more faith in Boris' leadership than most of the other handlings so far.

Everything else that's been done wrong he has acted on advice, later , delayed, mistakes happen. This wasn't a mistake. Time was taken over this decision and it wasn't a hard one.

Well done Boris.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with all this .
My only question is “ is Cummings paid anything from the taxpayers purse? 
If he is then I think there is scope to do something about him!
But can we force Boris to?


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Have any facts that his sister wasn't a suitable choice? Or are you just basing on personal experience .....
		
Click to expand...

I don't know if she is suitable or not, any more than you do.

But then as I'm not making accusations that he drove 260 miles when there was suitable childcare 20 minutes away, I don't have to know if she would be suitable.  As you're making the allegation you should, but apparently don't.


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## Billysboots (May 25, 2020)

I can’t recall whether the guidance to self isolate if any member of your household showed symptoms included the words “at home”.

If not, then Cummings is trying to wriggle out of this mess by arguing the guidance he himself helped prepare wasn’t specific enough. 

There is absolutely no question he should go. Even if his claim that he didn’t breach guidance is technically accurate, it’s semantics as far as the rest of us are concerned. He and his family should have stayed at home. End of.

To have behaved as he did, and then make no attempt to show any remorse when caught out, just shows what an arrogant self serving man he is.

Boris needs to grow a pair or he’s heading for a revolt. His failure to act last night serves to illustrate just how badly he had misjudged the public mood.


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## Jimaroid (May 25, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I can’t recall whether the guidance to self isolate if any member of your household showed symptoms included the words “at home”.
		
Click to expand...

If only there was some way of storing and recalling letters that a Prime Minister sends to the entire nation... 

https://assets.publishing.service.g...etter_to_nation_on_coronovirus_Accessible.pdf

"That is why we are giving one simple instruction – you must stay at home. You should not meet friends or relatives who do not live in your home."


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## Billysboots (May 25, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			If only there was some way of storing and recalling letters that a Prime Minister sends to the entire nation... 

https://assets.publishing.service.g...etter_to_nation_on_coronovirus_Accessible.pdf

"That is why we are giving one simple instruction – you must stay at home. You should not meet friends or relatives who do not live in your home."
		
Click to expand...

Seems crystal clear to me.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Wolf said:



			For me 100% he should go for his actions.

But with regards the press they're missing an opportunity by behaving this way all for a sound bite. They could as easily get that by lining up using SD to highlight to Dom Cum they still follow rules unlike him, or better still all come together and not be there at all to effectively report unlike Cummings they believe in social distancing and are keeping their SD from him!

Instead doing what they are now shows them in similar vein to him in that there is no regard for SD as long as they get the story. Plus any resignation now he can play the press hounded him card meaning government further retreat and only speak to their approved Journos. They're missing a huge opportunity here.
		
Click to expand...

Or come to an agreement that one film crew & 2 still photographers maximum cover it and all images are shared?  Don't know how that works re fees, but it would be an opportunity to modify existing arrangements & show Government how it is done?


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## bluewolf (May 25, 2020)

Another amusing point from this weekend. 
It would now appear that all the people who argued that the instructions were crystal clear are now saying that they’re sufficiently vague. And all the people who argued that the instructions were vague are now saying that they’re crystal clear. 

Nowt so amusing as folk...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The day you agree with SILH, then try injecting yourself with some Lysol...   Trump would approve of it.
		
Click to expand...

_I_ often don’t agree with myself as I have been having to tell myself to believe in people i distrust immensely...🤔 At the moment a voice is shouting very loudly in my head ‘SILH you are the mug Johnson and Cummings assumed you to be - i told you so...‘ and I am struggling to push back on that voice...😉


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## Wolf (May 25, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Or come to an agreement that one film crew & 2 still photographers maximum cover it and all images are shared?  Don't know how that works re fees, but it would be an opportunity to modify existing arrangements & show Government how it is done?
		
Click to expand...

Exactly , you'd have thought between them they could make some sort of agreement that essentially conforms with the advice and shows exactly what the high ground looks like whilst getting their point across. Instead they are performing a holier than thou, above the rules scenario themselves and effectively adding to the defence of his actions


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## pendodave (May 25, 2020)

I'm not sure there's any moral high ground to be had. It's all just a dance between press, government and MPs. I dont think any of them would behave differently thenselves, the piling on is pretty much faux outrage.
And while everyone looks the other way, the economy and people's life chances are destroyed for the sake of extending the lives of an easily identifiable subset of the population and pretending that the curent stupidity is still the best policy. The world's gone mad.


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## User20205 (May 25, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm not sure there's any moral high ground to be had. It's all just a dance between press, government and MPs. I dont think any of them would behave differently thenselves, the piling on is pretty much faux outrage.
And while everyone looks the other way, the economy and people's life chances are destroyed for the sake of extending the lives of an easily identifiable subset of the population and pretending that the curent stupidity is still the best policy. The world's gone mad.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty sure there are bigger issues at stake.


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2020)

Now the police are changing their statement, doesn't look good from both sides of the argument.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Is he stuck in traffic on the A1?
		
Click to expand...

Probably waiting to see if Durham Police change their statement again.


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## Imurg (May 25, 2020)

I can't quote it exactly as I'd get Fraggered but Ricky Gervais just tweeted If he doesn't show soon Cliff Richard's gonna start a singalong...


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2020)

He likes doing things "briefly".


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

Turns out the false allegations about Mr Cummings from campaigning newspapers about him going to Barnard Castle were not so false. But calm down, it was just an elongated eyesight test.


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2020)

Non statement- got to go.


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## Cherry13 (May 25, 2020)

It sounded like the first essay your English teacher gets you to do after your summer holidays... 
let’s just hope this is the last of it though. Bigger things to get on with surely.


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

He's just articulated very well the really difficult calls many people have had to go through in the crisis. It's just that after thinking about them, the vast majority of people stuck to the stay at home instructions that the government he advises issued.  He didn't.


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## Billysboots (May 25, 2020)

A small part of me has a degree of sympathy for Cummings, however, his judgement is appalling, his failure to show any regret even worse, and his abject failure to comprehend the hardships the common man and woman in the street are having to endure, without the benefit of being able to run to the family estate, absolutely unforgivable.

Not fit for the post he holds, however he seeks to justify himself.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Turns out the false allegations about Mr Cummings from campaigning newspapers about him going to Barnard Castle were not so false.
		
Click to expand...

And the accusation from an unnamed "witness" that he had been seen again in the area on 19 April?

The case against Cummings is not helped by false allegations or spin.


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

The press "high ground" in this is lost with the untruths and scrums outside his house. If they'd stuck to the facts, and themselves exercised social distancing etc., then he wouldn't have so much of an "out".


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The press "high ground" in this is lost with the untruths and scrums outside his house. If they'd stuck to the facts, and themselves exercised social distancing etc., then he wouldn't have so much of an "out".
		
Click to expand...

So you really think he has an out because the press had scrums outside his house?


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

Seriously, all you die hard Tories, are you really buying the Barnard Castle testing his eyesight story?


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## harpo_72 (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you really think he has an out because the press had scrums outside his house?
		
Click to expand...

I heard it was actually a rugby match ... not just scrums.

what I have learnt about covid 19 .. if you wear a bikini your immune, if you work for the press you are immune, it’s okay for children to return but not politicians, Rees Mogg couldn’t spare a nanny, Boris has only said thanks ( which is easy to do, I tried it on the bank manager and he got a bit upset) and the banks are in profit ...


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you really think he has an out because the press had scrums outside his house?
		
Click to expand...

He has an element of one yes. It's more the untruths (which you failed to mention) and the fact the press were told repeatedly they were untrue but still printed them.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seriously, all you die hard Tories, are you really buying the Barnard Castle testing his eyesight story?
		
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't they?

After all those on the other side were quick to buy the story about bluebell woods on 19 April. 

Falsehoods are of no help to either side.


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			He has an element of one yes. *It's more the untruths (which you failed to mention) and the fact the press were told repeatedly they were untrue but still printed them.*

Click to expand...

As opposed the vast majority of stuff which they printed that was true?  Is all that now tainted?  Should we ignore it?


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			He has an element of one yes. It's more the untruths (which you failed to mention) and the fact the press were told repeatedly they were untrue but still printed them.
		
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He must have gone to Durham a second time. The papers said so. It must be true.


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			As opposed the vast majority of stuff which they printed that was true?  Is all that now tainted?  Should we ignore it?
		
Click to expand...

They lied about elements which made his behaviour seem much worse. Therefore they lose the moral high ground they were so keen to say they had with all their "regular contact with No. 10 prior to printing" etc. It's not complicated.


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



*Why wouldn't they?*

After all those on the other side were quick to buy the story about bluebell woods on 19 April.

Falsehoods are of no help to either side.
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264952273916002306


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			They lied about elements which made his behaviour *seem much worse.* Therefore they lose the moral high ground they were so keen to say they had with all their "regular contact with No. 10 prior to printing" etc. It's not complicated.
		
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You are right, the second trip really tipped it over the edge for me.  Before that he wasn't was doing anything wrong.....


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## chrisd (May 25, 2020)

I reckon he'll resign in the next 24 hours and with rise from the dead in 6 to 9 months as other advisers have done over the years. I agree with Hacker in that he was ok until the eye test drive


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## larmen (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seriously, all you die hard Tories, are you really buying the Barnard Castle testing his eyesight story?
		
Click to expand...

You can do that to test the tint of your glasses.


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I reckon he'll resign in the next 24 hours and with rise from the dead in 6 to 9 months as other advisers have done over the years. I agree with Hacker in that he was ok until the eye test drive
		
Click to expand...

Well I didn't think he was OK before that, but genuinely good to see a sense of decency sometimes over rides political affiliations, some of whom seem alarmingly to be doing down the Trump route of rubbishing the press who broke the story.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

One of the commentators describing this said he felt like he'd been hired to do the post-match analysis at the Salem witch hunt.  Sums it up perfectly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seriously, all you die hard Tories, are you really buying the Barnard Castle testing his eyesight story?
		
Click to expand...

Where does it say in the guidelines that we are able to test our fitness to drive?

Anyway.  He sounded contrite, and he and his family have clearly had a very difficult time, but though he expressed a couple of regrets on things he might have done better about communicating about what he was to do and did - he didn't seem to have any regrets whatsoever over what he did.  Everything was justified in the circumstances and he adhered to the rules. 

And I didn't think it great to tell us that the fact that many of us were upset with what he did was was the fault of untrue reporting by the media.  He understood how we could have been duped by that misreporting (seems we are easily duped - well he might know) - if only we'd known the truth we would not have been so annoyed with him.  When in fact what many were upset about were the things that we know to be true - not how the media reported it - and what the media reported that has been refuted - or explained away.

My wife was watching and listening with me and had a great deal sympathy over his predicament, however as he spoke she said on more than one occasion and is still saying it now - 'just say sorry'.

I recall the Scottish Chief Medical or Scientific Officer encouraging everyone (in Scotland) to stick with the simple rules - don't look for loopholes - don't try a push the  boundaries - just accept the basic rules as they are set out and work out how to live within them.


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## bluewolf (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			They lied about elements which made his behaviour seem much worse. Therefore they lose the moral high ground they were so keen to say they had with all their "regular contact with No. 10 prior to printing" etc. It's not complicated.
		
Click to expand...

You are quite correct. Journalists writing fabricated articles in the press have completely lost all credibility. The one in the Spectator a few weeks ago about the Cumming’s families experiences of being ill during the lockdown now appears to be completely false. You know, the one written by Mary Wakefield. Now where have I heard her name before?


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			You are right, the second trip really tipped it over the edge for me.  Before that he wasn't was doing anything wrong.....
		
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My heart sinks whenever I see you've responded to a post of mine. Sarcasm abounds. 

I'm quoting the truth about the press coverage and its untruths.


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

If you care to look back at this thread you'll see I've said at least once he should go. I feel no different but the press have done their usual and should be called out on it. If they were whiter than white then he would not have any moral high ground.

I resent being compared to a moronic trump supporter with no sense of decency.


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

Why did his wife who was self isolating drive their son to hospital? Was that not exactly the type of thing his sister and nieces were on hand for? Same for Cummings going to pick them up the next day?


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			You are quite correct. Journalists writing fabricated articles in the press have completely lost all credibility. The one in the Spectator a few weeks ago about the Cumming’s families experiences of being ill during the lockdown now appears to be completely false. You know, the one written by Mary Wakefield. Now where have I heard her name before?
		
Click to expand...

I think he covered that and the reason Durham was left out of it


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

I wish he’d if made the statement saturday or the day before, good to hear from him.

Made a fair point about security concerns on his home, but that applies to all MP’s, Celebrities and others in the public eye.

Genuinely believe his reasons for driving to Durham, but took it more as a father/husband in panic mode and looking for the “legal” reason to be able to do it rather than him thinking straight and I can understand it.

Barnard Castle trip, (apart from the “witness” needing an apology from some) sorry but that’s were I have my doubts, if he was doing it as a test, why take his wife and child with him and risk them? Couldn’t he of simply drove himself as the test and if the comeback is his wife may of needed to keep an eye on him, why not leave the kid with the cousins?

As for other allegations about the other trip, again a statement released yesterday would of stopped them in their tracks.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and now it’s obvious he didn’t need to go to Durham, but at the time he was a “rabbit caught in the headlights” and made what he believed (and I believe him) to be a legal decision.

Hopefully it will fizzle out now and we can focus on the crisis.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Why did his wife who was self isolating drive their son to hospital? Was that not exactly the type of thing his sister and nieces were on hand for? Same for Cummings going to pick them up the next day?
		
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They went in an ambulance, he went to pick them up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			They lied about elements which made his behaviour seem much worse. Therefore they lose the moral high ground they were so keen to say they had with all their "regular contact with No. 10 prior to printing" etc. It's not complicated.
		
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Can you prove they lied or were they given false information they believed.
This is the first time we’ve heard his side.


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## MegaSteve (May 25, 2020)

Think everybody and mates has been piling in feet first condemning the "morons" (hate that word) who chose knowingly/foolishly to not do the right thing... Yet, the game now seems to be how many reasons can be found to excuse someone who is in a position to have known better...


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They went in an ambulance, he went to pick them up.
		
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That's correct, forgot that detail, but the 2nd point still stands, why did DC who was meant to be self isolating, drive to the hospital instead of getting a family member to do that?


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Can you prove they lied or were they given false information they believed.
This is the first time we’ve heard his side.
		
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Of course not. Surely their responsibility is to verify information before printing it as fact.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Of course not. Surely their responsibility is to verify information before printing it as fact.
		
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But it goes both ways, the poor “witness” who saw him at Barnard Castle has been absolutely slaughtered on social media by cummings supporters, I can’t see the media changing until those in the limelight stop wanting it both ways.

Look at the leaks from “trusted sources” when they want positive information or spin put on things happening.

I genuinely take all media with a pinch of salt and find the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

Let's not forget that Number 10 and various ministers were saying yesterday the Barnard Castle story was a lie.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's correct, forgot that detail, but the 2nd point still stands, why did DC who was meant to be self isolating, drive to the hospital instead of getting a family member to do that?
		
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He said there were no taxis available and he was ok to drive, didn’t leave his car, believed he, his wife and son had covid and so sending anyone else to collect them would of been risking others.


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## AmandaJR (May 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Let's not forget that Number 10 and various ministers were saying yesterday the Barnard Castle story was a lie.
		
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Actually I think they said it was "inaccurate" - sounds like they knew he'd driven there but not as implied by the press story.


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## rudebhoy (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He said there were no taxis available and he was ok to drive, didn’t leave his car, believed he, his wife and son had covid and so sending anyone else to collect them would of been risking others.
		
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Maybe but he was supposed to have been self isolating after having the virus. So he was definitely breaking the rules there. What if his car had broken down or if he had an accident with his dodgy eyesight?


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## Imurg (May 25, 2020)

What if, what if......
What if the press actually got the story cast iron solidly right then we wouldn't be having these conversations because hed have resigned or been sac,ed yesterday....
The press had a couple of weeks or more to get this 10p% right and they've given him wiggle room.
I still think he has to go and will in the next few days because this isnt going away quietly..


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I wish he’d if made the statement saturday or the day before, good to hear from him.

Made a fair point about security concerns on his home, but that applies to all MP’s, Celebrities and others in the public eye.

Genuinely believe his reasons for driving to Durham, but took it more as a father/husband in panic mode and looking for the “legal” reason to be able to do it rather than him thinking straight and I can understand it.

Barnard Castle trip, (apart from the “witness” needing an apology from some) sorry but that’s were I have my doubts, if he was doing it as a test, why take his wife and child with him and risk them? Couldn’t he of simply drove himself as the test and if the comeback is his wife may of needed to keep an eye on him, why not leave the kid with the cousins?

As for other allegations about the other trip, again a statement released yesterday would of stopped them in their tracks.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and now it’s obvious he didn’t need to go to Durham, but at the time he was a “rabbit caught in the headlights” and made what he believed (and I believe him) to be a legal decision.

Hopefully it will fizzle out now and we can focus on the crisis.
		
Click to expand...

Hurrah, all is right with the world again. I'm back to disagreeing with Paul. 

By his own admission he broke lock down rules before even leaving London. He went home from work because they thought his wife had the virus and rather than self isolating he then went back to work, potentially infecting others. That alone undermines the Government message to stay at home and isolate if anyone in your household has symptoms. I find it very hard to believe that they drove all the way to Durham without stopping on their way up there (4 year olds aren't known for their bladder capacity) and I don't believe the Barnard Castle story. To me the reason that all those supporting him over the weekend were very vague in their answers to the Barnard Castle story was because they hadn't had time to come up with an explanation/excuse for it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Hurrah, all is right with the world again. I'm back to disagreeing with Paul. 

By his own admission he broke lock down rules before even leaving London. He went home from work because they thought his wife had the virus and rather than self isolating he then went back to work, potentially infecting others. That alone undermines the Government message to stay at home and isolate if anyone in your household has symptoms. I find it very hard to believe that they drove all the way to Durham without stopping on their way up there (4 year olds aren't known for their bladder capacity) and I don't believe the Barnard Castle story. To me the reason that all those supporting him over the weekend were very vague in their answers to the Barnard Castle story was because they hadn't had time to come up with an explanation/excuse for it.
		
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Non stop to Durham is easy with a small kid, did it tens of times living in London and visiting in-laws.

Like I put above, he panic’d imo, maybe under pressure from his wife, and as of today, neither have been tested for covid-19, so can’t categorically state he shouldn’t have gone back to work.


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Non stop to Durham is easy with a small kid, did it tens of times living in London and visiting in-laws.

Like I put above, he panic’d imo, maybe under pressure from his wife, and as of today, *neither have been tested for covid-19, so can’t categorically state he shouldn’t have gone back to work.*

Click to expand...

That wasn't what the guidelines said though. If anyone in the household displayed symptoms then everyone had to isolate and stay at home.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			That wasn't what the guidelines said though. If anyone in the household displayed symptoms then everyone had to isolate and stay at home.
		
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cummings explained they couldn’t put every example of what you could and couldn’t do in the guidelines. 

Obviously with the PM being ill, someone had run the country


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2020)

Boris had no credible answers apart from wash your hands.

He's now saying Cummings eyesight guff is credible. Attacking the guardian for the one incorrect story ignoring all the stuff that was 100% correct. Best of luck UK, it's pretty clear why he's been mostly missing in action recently, finish the press conference as quickly as possible, seems he's not quite up to it.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

the lock down rule he is quoting is spec for  children that are in an abuse situation, not a rich person can use it to visit his parents.
but in summary,,, big boy done it and ran away... the dog eat my homework... etc, etc. or  its the media's fault.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2020)

Happy to be called out on this but I cannot recall any press/public hounding of Cummings in his house at the time he was mentioning. [Before Durham trip]
Did he just make this up?


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Happy to be called out on this but I cannot recall any press/public hounding of Cummings in his house at the time he was mentioning. [Before Durham trip]
Did he just make this up?
		
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no its all the media's fault


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## North Mimms (May 25, 2020)

The Press have been asking Downing Street about this trip for weeks.
If they had cleared it up in April it would have been a complete non story.
Refusing to comment until forced to made the whole thing worse.
Plus there were denials about the Bernard castle trip and the police visit; DC confirmed the former, Durham police the latter.

Frankly it's a PR disaster which could and should have been better handled.
The stalling, denials and drip feed of facts is a Lesson in Bad PR


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the lock down rule he is quoting is spec for  children that are in an abuse situation, not a rich person can use it to visit his parents
		
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He didn't visit his parents.
But can you quote the words of the exception relating to children and show why it doesn't apply to his situation?


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## Jimaroid (May 25, 2020)

I found it very interesting that we finally got to hear directly from the man who's reputed to weave long intricate stories into well crafted narratives. So colour me surprised when we heard a long intricate story crafted into a narrative of no wrong.

I genuinely do believe that he believes what he's saying, by the way. However that inability to externalise his own behaviour is also the entirety of the burning issue.


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## fundy (May 25, 2020)

Just a straight race to the bottom between the government and the press it seems, arrogance abounds and the lack of humiility or apologies undermines the trust of all but the staunchest of supporters.

The sad thing is as a country we are now in a worse situation, with a weakened government at a time when we really could do with the opposite to get us through both this pandemic and the Brexit negotiations


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## PaulS (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			He didn't visit his parents.
But can you quote the words of the exception relating to children and show why it doesn't apply to his situation?
		
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So that exception include going for a drive to a castle to test your eyesight and also does it allow you to break self isolation rules ?


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			He didn't visit his parents.
But can you quote the words of the exception relating to children and show why it doesn't apply to his situation?
		
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according to him.. as other say look it up for yourself , rather than me do you work for you.. FYI i spoke todaywith a Social worker who highlighted this to me ...but what does he know


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## rulefan (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			according to him..
		
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So when he said he drove to Durham rather than taking the train, you don't believe that either? Everything he says is a lie? Guilty until proved innocent>


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			So when he said he drove to Durham rather than taking the train, you don't believe that either? Everything he says is a lie? Guilty until proved innocent>
		
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i don't for one moment believe he didn't have contact with his parents, you think what you like, but i will kep my own council thanks.

just like he didn't visit BC ..or remember where he filled up with fuel.. or stop

looked up the rules yet?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			looked up the rules yet?
		
Click to expand...

I have and can't find the relevant section to which your friend refers.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I have and can't find the relevant section to which your friend refers.
		
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could you find doms get out clause? its the same one  the reason why its there not for some to do as they pleased


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			could you find doms get out clause? its the same one  the reason why its there not for some to do as they pleased
		
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Certainly there's an acknowledgement that it may not always be possible to strictly adhere to the guidelines/rules  when there are childcare concerns. 

It doesn't appear to be as clear as your friend suggests.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Happy to be called out on this but I cannot recall any press/public hounding of Cummings in his house at the time he was mentioning. [Before Durham trip]
Did he just make this up?
		
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I believe he did suffer from a  high level of "doorstepping" in much the same way as Corbyn did. 

After all the press must have obtained their extensive knowledge of his interior design issues as quoted on here.😉


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## DRW (May 25, 2020)

I wonder if DC would take a lie detector test, that would be interesting and help to clear up any mis-understanding that the media or public have.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Certainly there's an acknowledgement that it may not always be possible to strictly adhere to the guidelines/rules  when there are childcare concerns.

It doesn't appear to be as clear as your friend suggests.
		
Click to expand...

those guildlines refer to child abuse issues... the reason they are there  in so children didn't ahve to stay in abusive situations, be it domestic or child abuse, not a trip to a holiday home..


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			those guildlines refer to child abuse issues... the reason they are there  in so children didn't ahve to stay in abusive situations, be it domestic or child abuse, not a trip to a holiday home..
		
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I have  read them again  and cannot see where they specifically refer to children at risk.


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## spongebob59 (May 25, 2020)

She's back 🥴🤯


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264976520503836673


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I have  read them again  and cannot see where they specifically refer to children at risk.
		
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but you see the bit where it says drive 270 miles to a holiday home, then go for a picnic 30 miles away though?


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## Mudball (May 25, 2020)

While he was on air..   Twitterati was talking about the trip to the Castle coinciding with his wife's birthday.   Surprisingly no reporter asked that..  (or did i miss it)


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but you see the bit where it says drive 270 miles to a holiday home, then go for a picnic 30 miles away though?
		
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I definitely don't think that what he did  was  right.

Equally,  however,  I see no reason to twist the details to suit my disapproval. You obviously don't have the same concerns.


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## DRW (May 25, 2020)

Why is he driving if eyesight dodgy, thought that was an offence under traffic law?

Why do such a long journey to test eyesight and with everyone and then stop and so on?

Didn't he say he rushed home after wife thought she had it and then went back to work? He should have gone into lockdown(will listen to the statement again)

He and the PM spoke about it, but neither can remember when or really what about ?

He cant remember if he filled up his petrol on the way back or when he did?

So many unanswered questions.

And he hadn't even considered that he should resign, that really surprised me with that answer. How could you not of even considered it, for the good of the cause(irrelevant if you are right or wrong). How could you not have even considered it(I understand why you may decide yes or no, but not to even consider it)?

So many unanswered questions, certainly leaves a certain feeling, I hope the story continues to rumble on.


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2020)




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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2020)

Yes I know it should be child not children but I still found it funny.......


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I definitely don't think that what he did  was  right.

Equally,  however,  I see no reason to twist the details to suit my disapproval. You obviously don't have the same concerns.
		
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who's  twisting anything, you are Obv looking for reasons for him to excuse what he did, up to you, i'm saying what he did wasn't within the rules and is just abusing the guidence that didn't apply to him


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

Where  and if he filled up with fuel on his return journey is surely one of the irrelevant issues as he would by then have been out of "self isolation".


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			who's  twisting anything, you are Obv looking for reasons for him to excuse what he did, up to you, i'm saying what he did wasn't within the rules and is just abusing the guidence
		
Click to expand...

You have done little but twist it with  reference to holiday homes, references to  regulations that don't seem to exist and harping on about his transport. 

My point is that rather than strengthening the case the reverse is likely to be the case.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You have done little but twist it with  reference to holiday homes, references to  regulations that don't seem to exist and harping on about his transport.

My point is that rather than strengthening the case the reverse is likely to be the case.
		
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oh reallyif you have read the section he's using as his excuse thats what was included to cover abuse... but you carry on defllect deflect deflect... who'd have thought


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That's a bit harsh. The stuff Patrick is referring to, that DC is using to justify the Durham trip, was definitely added to the guidelines after pressure over domestic/child abuse concerns. Looks like the drafting has been suitably woolly to allow a broader interpretation.
		
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But still there is no specific reference to exceptions aptly only to children at risk. 

We can't criticise politicians for twisting the facts if we then do the same.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			oh really, defllect deflect deflect... who'd have thought
		
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Twist  twist, twist......who would have thought it 🙄


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## DRW (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Where  and if he filled up with fuel on his return journey is surely one of the irrelevant issues as he would by then have been out of "self isolation".
		
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The point is he said that he could remember he did not fill up on the way up, but couldn't remember where and when he did fill up, weird that,

He probably paid by card for the fuel, so fairly easy to find out the actual fact for his statement but chose not to, why?

Just begs the question, where and when did he actually fill up or did he fill up, his memory seemed pretty clear on most other parts of the story.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Twist  twist, twist......who would have thought it 🙄
		
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like we did last summer


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			like we did last summer
		
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You appear to think that I am defending Cummings. 

Far from it. I think he should be gone but the case against him is not helped by distorting the facts.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			What Patrick stated was true, not twisting the facts. So you should drop that particular line of attack.
		
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Not at all.

He claimed that the exceptions applied only to  children at risk and that's not the case.

I accept that may have been the intention but is not what is said.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			What Patrick stated was true, not twisting the facts. So you should drop that particular line of attack.
		
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true Kaz, i think there was even someone from the childrens panel on the news tonigh stating this, but Tory deflectors will go to any lengths  to undermine the truth


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That's a bit harsh. The stuff Patrick is referring to, that DC is using to justify the Durham trip,* was definitely added to the guidelines after pressure over domestic/child abuse concerns.* Looks like the drafting has been suitably woolly to allow a broader interpretation.
		
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Can you provide a reference to that please, as I'm not seeing it in the two relevant pieces of legislation I've looked up.  Is there the possibility that we are looking at different bits of legislation, given our respective locations?


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## garyinderry (May 25, 2020)

Why did he think that both he and his wife would become incapacitated?

The virus was supposed to be mild for most.  Many not even displaying symptoms. 

As it transpired, the pair of them would have been able to look after the child between them. As many affected families had to while sticking to the rules of staying at home.


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## Wolf (May 25, 2020)

Why did they have to go for a drive to test his eyesight, seems a rather dangerous thing to do. Why not simply let his wife drive!


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Why did they have to go for a drive to test his eyesight, seems a rather dangerous thing to do. Why not simply let his wife drive!
		
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Same the way up he makes out he's on his deathbed, but drove up while she was feeling better.
the other bit that bothers me was the conversation they had when he came back to work when "Boris and he were both  in bed together"


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Why did they have to go for a drive to test his eyesight, seems a rather dangerous thing to do. Why not simply let his wife drive!
		
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I thought he said he wanted to go for a drive to see if he was well enough.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Why did he think that both he and his wife would become incapacitated?

The virus was supposed to be mild for most.  Many not even displaying symptoms.

As it transpired, the pair of them would have been able to look after the child between them. As many affected families had to while sticking to the rules of staying at home.
		
Click to expand...

It's not like that with everyone by any means, just look at Boris. My Daughter who is 41, normally very healthy had it and was very ill, she was taken into hospital three times, it's now six weeks since it started and she still has breathing problems.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I stated it because I remember the debate about it at the time. I'm not about to go googling it for you but I'm pretty sure Jess Phillips was involved so that might be a starting point for you.
		
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Well that seems to refer to a completely different piece of legislation to the one under which Dominic Cummings would appear to be entitled to an exemption to travel.  As to whether that travel would meet the requirements of reasonable and necessary requires more information than I have.


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought he said he wanted to go for a drive to see if he was well enough.
		
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you would be wrong then


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			you would be wrong then
		
Click to expand...

 I may well be, that's why I said "I thought he said"


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## patricks148 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I may well be, that's why I said "I thought he said"
		
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nope said he discussed with his wife his eye site was suffering, so drove 30 miles away to BC to test it.. as anyone would


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought he said he wanted to go for a drive to see if he was well enough.
		
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patricks148 said:



			you would be wrong then
		
Click to expand...

From The Guardian; "Cummings said he had no physical contact with his parents but they had “shouted conversations at a distance” and that *he made the trip to Barnard Castle because he was trying to work out if he was fit enough and his eyesight was good enough to drive back to London that week."*


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			nope said he discussed with his wife his eye site was suffering, so drove 30 miles away to BC to test it.. as anyone would

Click to expand...

I've just looked at the video and he said his wife was concerned for his eyesight, he then said he went for the drive to see if he was fit enough for the return drive to London.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 25, 2020)




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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Well that's interesting. I'd certainly like to understand that better. Care to share your source now that you've tracked it down? 

Regardless, you'll hopefully agree its very much a matter of opinion whether anything in the guidance gives an exemption to travel from one part of the country to another. Something that seems to be getting overlooked is that the Cummings family left London while unwell only to end up in hospital in Durham which is pretty explicitly one of the things the lockdown was intended to prevent. At the very least an apology for that might have been nice.
		
Click to expand...

It's in the main Health Protection Coronavirus legislation.  

Having looked at it, my opinion is that it's beyond dispute that there was an exemption for him to leave his home.  However I'd suggest it would be for him to prove as to why the help couldn't be obtained nearer to home, or some of his alleged actions when he was up there.


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## Wolf (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've just looked at the video and he said his wife was concerned for his eyesight, he then said he went for the drive to see if he was fit enough for the return drive to London.
		
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To which he answered they decide his sight was OK and well enough. Regardless though if he wasn't well enough, why not just let the wife drive...


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## PaulS (May 25, 2020)

I guess this is going to dominate headlines for the foreseeable future 

Shame really as schools looking to open soon , shops opening , numbers going down - lots of good news ignored


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## Rlburnside (May 25, 2020)

If you ignore all the press coverage and all the information that came out of number 10 and just look at some of the facts we now now it amazes me how anyone can try and justify his actions.

Right from the very start when he went back to work after going home thinking his wife had symptoms he started ignoring the advice that was made very clear which was to isolate if someone in the household had symptoms.

Driving 270 miles while thinking they might have been infected, wrong, what if they had broke down or had a accident?

Going for a short drive to see if his eyesight was ok to drive 270 miles,  wrong on all levels.

He should resign or be sacked this country is still in a very serious situation and this is situation is taking away from the important work that should be focused on now.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			But what makes you think the part under discussion wasn't added for child protection reasons? I'm just genuinely interested because if you're correct it seems like I'm getting mixed up.
		
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Because of where it sits in the legislation and the other legislation it references, which makes no reference that I'm seeing to protection from abuse, and because the Jess Phillips' article appear to refer to an Act with a completely different title.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Wolf said:



			To which he answered they decide his sight was OK and well enough. Regardless though if he wasn't well enough, why not just let the wife drive...
		
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We dont understand all the metrics. For example, my wife would never drive that distance shes not confident enough a driver.


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## Rlburnside (May 25, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's in the main Health Protection Coronavirus legislation. 

Having looked at it, my opinion is that it's beyond dispute that there was an exemption for him to leave his home.  However I'd suggest it would be for him to prove as to why the help couldn't be obtained nearer to home, or some of his alleged actions when he was up there.
		
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Coming from your background I would be interested on your views about him driving 270 miles and he had a accident on the way up and had to call out the emergency services.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			If you ignore all the press coverage and all the information that came out of number 10 and just look at some of the facts we now now it amazes me how anyone can try and justify his actions.

Right from the very start when he went back to work after going home thinking his wife had symptoms he started ignoring the advice that was made very clear which was to isolate if someone in the household had symptoms.

Driving 270 miles while thinking they might have been infected, wrong, what if they had broke down or had a accident?

Going for a short drive to see if his eyesight was ok to drive 270 miles,  wrong on all levels.

He should resign or be sacked this country is still in a very serious situation and this is situation is taking away from the important work that should be focused on now.
		
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He made a decision based on what he thought was best for his family. He explained that they had been subject to threats and people harassing them at home.  In similar circumstances I think I would do the same.


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## Wolf (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We dont understand all the metrics. For example, my wife would never drive that distance shes not confident enough a driver.
		
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Would she be comfortable with you driving her and a child with your eyes not working correctly


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Would she be comfortable with you driving her and a child with your eyes not working correctly
		
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No, of course not.  As discussed previously he said in the briefing they decided to take a short drive as his wife was concerned about his eye sight and he wanted to check he was well enough.  If he felt at any time he wasnt fit enough then I assume (similar to your suggestion) his wife would take over.  

There are only two possibilities, either he did what he said or they went out for a jolly in the country.  Without any contrary proof I feel I should take his word for it.


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## Rlburnside (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He made a decision based on what he thought was best for his family. He explained that they had been subject to threats and people harassing them at home.  In similar circumstances I think I would do the same.
		
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At that early point the press and harassment wasn’t much of a issue it was only much later when the story broke, what about his first case of ignoring lockdown advice and going back to work. 

Ignore what he said and concentrate on his actions and I would hope you would come to a different conclusion.


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2020)

It seems that it's not just UK politicians are getting themselves in hot water. Irish Taoiseach (yes I did copy and paste that word as there's no way I'm going to try spelling it) Leo Varadkar has been pictured having a picnic in the park with his boyfriend and two other friends. Witnesses have claimed that they were not observing social distancing rules although this has been disputed by his office.


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## MegaSteve (May 25, 2020)

For me, the total lack of leadership and absolute lack of spinal fortitude shown by government, in the last few days, doesn't bode well for our future safety... Stay safe people!


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2020)

And much as I have admired Nicola Sturgeon's handling of things so far it seems a bit rich for her to claim that Boris has chosen "political interest ahead of public interest" by refusing to sack Cummings after she tried to avoid sacking her own adviser for breaking lock down rules.


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## spongebob59 (May 25, 2020)

Well argued article imo

https://www.melaniephillips.com/bullying-double-standards-absence-humanity/


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

Just seen this, another discrepancy when it comes to driving and his health, Barnard Castle wasn’t the first time he risked his wife and child, unless he made a miraculous recovery overnight.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Coming from your background I would be interested on your views about him driving 270 miles and he had a accident on the way up and had to call out the emergency services.
		
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My views on it would depend on the circumstances of the accident, not necessarily the fact that he was driving that distance.   If the accident happened as a result of him being unwell & he knew he was unwell at the start of the journey, I wouldn't be impressed.  If he got hit by a drink driver, my starting point would be that the drink driver was the root cause of the problem, not the fact that Cummings was making a journey.   Once he has made the decision that he is entitled to leave his house under the relevant decision, he's another piece of traffic on the road.  I've seen plenty of evidence of far less justifiable journeys than this one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Well argued article imo

https://www.melaniephillips.com/bullying-double-standards-absence-humanity/

Click to expand...

Read it and then researched the author as it smears everyone and anyone but cummings, it turns out she is regarded as one of the British media's leading right-wing voices.

So unfortunately another article taken with a pinch of salt.


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## Rlburnside (May 25, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			My views on it would depend on the circumstances of the accident, not necessarily the fact that he was driving that distance.   If the accident happened as a result of him being unwell & he knew he was unwell at the start of the journey, I wouldn't be impressed.  If he got hit by a drink driver, my starting point would be that the drink driver was the root cause of the problem, not the fact that Cummings was making a journey.   Once he has made the decision that he is entitled to leave his house under the relevant decision, he's another piece of traffic on the road.  I've seen plenty of evidence of far less justifiable journeys than this one.
		
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Wow that’s me out


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just seen this, another discrepancy when it comes to driving and his health, Barnard Castle wasn’t the first time he risked his wife and child, unless he made a miraculous recovery overnight.
View attachment 30863

Click to expand...

I would do anything for my family and I think you would do the same. It's so easy for us to look at his actions from the comfort of an arm chair but faced with the conditions he explained I cant say with my hand on my heart I would act any differently.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Read it and then researched the author as it smears everyone and anyone but cummings, it turns out she is regarded as one of the British media's leading right-wing voices.

So unfortunately another article taken with a pinch of salt.
		
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Let's play the ball and not the Woman. Its easy to simply dismiss views based on perceptions based on a person's political view and you have accused me of doing that.   Maybe read it and point out what you disagree with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I would do anything for my family and I think you would do the same. It's so easy for us to look at his actions from the comfort of an arm chair but faced with the conditions he explained I cant say with my hand on my heart I would act any differently.
		
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I’ve said I accepted his reason for driving to Durham as a father/husband etc, this journey is different, just a few hours before he said he could barely stand up and yet he chose to drive.

In London he had no one else, in Durham he had a sister and at least 1 niece who may hold a driving license, plus parents all within a few hundred metres who could of driven to get them.

If he was that weak he was risking his family!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Let's play the ball and not the Woman. Its easy to simply dismiss views based on perceptions based on a person's political view and you have accused me of doing that.   Maybe read it and point out what you disagree with.
		
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What part of “smears everyone but cummings did you miss” and I don’t remember you questioning BiM the other day when he pointed out an article (video) written by a left wing journalist. 
Or are you playing the poster?


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ve said I accepted his reason for driving to Durham as a father/husband etc, this journey is different, *just a few hours before he said he could barely stand up and yet he chose to drive.*

In London he had no one else, in Durham he had a sister and at least 1 niece who may hold a driving license, plus parents all within a few hundred metres who could drove to get them.

If he was that weak he was risking his family!
		
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Wasnt it five days based on the clip you posted.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What part of “smears everyone but cummings did you miss” and I don’t remember you questioning Hobbit the other day when he pointed out an article written by a left wing journalist.
Or are you playing the poster?

Click to expand...

I dont read every post people make on here. I mearly asked you to comment on the article and not dismiss it due to the authors politics.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Wasnt it five days based on the clip you posted.
		
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Thursday 2nd April and his son’s admission in to hospital!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont read every post people make on here. I mearly asked you to comment on the article and not dismiss it due to the authors politics.
		
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I will dismiss it when it’s from extremists, just like I dismiss momentum or Owen Jones (or whatever his name is) or Guido Fawkes etc.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Thursday 2nd April and his son’s admission in to hospital!!
		
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Wasnt he taken I'll on the 28th of March?


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I will dismiss it when it’s from extremists, just like I dismiss momentum or Owen Jones (or whatever his name is) or Guido Fawkes etc.
		
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OK, your prerogative


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Wasnt he taken I'll on the 28th of March?
		
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Read the article I posted, you are confused.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Read the article I posted, you are confused.
		
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Sorry I may be confused but I've read he started feeling I'll with Covid on the 28th March and his Son became I'll on the 2nd of April.


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## MegaSteve (May 26, 2020)

My biggest concern is that government will now be proceeding with too much haste withdrawing from lockdown as a means of diverting attention away from DomCum...


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## Mudball (May 26, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1265117525777448960


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## rudebhoy (May 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			My biggest concern is that government will now be proceeding with too much haste withdrawing from lockdown as a means of diverting attention away from DomCum...
		
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Yes, did think there was definitely an element of 'let's get Cummings off the front page" with the timing of last night's announcement.

Never saw his briefing, is it true Johnston refused to answer any questions re Cummings?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry I may be confused but I've read he started feeling I'll with Covid on the 28th March and his Son became I'll on the 2nd of April.
		
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And what state does he say he was in when they called an ambulance for their son on 2nd April?


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## pauljames87 (May 26, 2020)

Sorry if this already been posted haven't read much today

May 25th 2020

Boris Johnson told today’s Downing Street press conference: ‘I’m finding that I have to wear spectacles for the first time in years – because I think of the likely effects of this thing – so I’m inclined to think there’s some … I think that’s very, very plausible that eyesight can be a problem associated with coronavirus.’ (defending Cummings and his eye sight drive claims)

October 20th 2014

Boris Johnson claimed yesterday that he suffers from extremely poor eyesight and can barely see anything around the house without his glasses on.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ondon-mayor-admits-needing-glasses-house.html

He gets more like trump every day 

Will be shouting fake news next


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Yes, did think there was definitely an element of 'let's get Cummings off the front page" with the timing of last night's announcement.

Never saw his briefing, is it true Johnston refused to answer any questions re Cummings?
		
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I wouldn't say he refused to answer, he just didn't really have an answer. How could he? The comedy in the briefing was in the number of times he talked about staying at home, isolating if infected, minimal travel etc. All of the things that Cummings ignored. His whole statement was undermined. I only watched 5 or so questions but every one was about Cummings and his inability to deal with them was very clear, obvious and embarrassing. 

Just a thought for some of those still defending the journeys. At the time it was all over this forum about how it was unacceptable to drive to a golf course, drive to then walk. We had to protect the emergency services, we had to protect A & E. We had to avoid doing journeys that may result in a car crash. 1m down the road, no that was still not acceptable. How does 240 miles + 30 miles + 30 miles + 240 miles fit into that?


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## PaulS (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I would do anything for my family and I think you would do the same. It's so easy for us to look at his actions from the comfort of an arm chair but faced with the conditions he explained I cant say with my hand on my heart I would act any differently.
		
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I have this little feeling that if this was being talked about an Aide of Corbyn then the attitudes would be slightly different and the daggers would be sharp and certainly wouldn’t be trying to justify his actions.


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## patricks148 (May 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I wouldn't say he refused to answer, he just didn't really have an answer. How could he? The comedy in the briefing was in the number of times he talked about staying at home, isolating if infected, minimal travel etc. All of the things that Cummings ignored. His whole statement was undermined. I only watched 5 or so questions but every one was about Cummings and his inability to deal with them was very clear, obvious and embarrassing.

Just a thought for some of those still defending the journeys. At the time it was all over this forum about how it was unacceptable to drive to a golf course, drive to then walk. We had to protect the emergency services, we had to protect A & E. We had to avoid doing journeys that may result in a car crash. 1m down the road, no that was still not acceptable. How does 240 miles + 30 miles + 30 miles + 240 miles fit into that?
		
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one thing i did notice was when some of the journalists were hard on him he wrote stuff down... not all of them just the ones he was flustered by.
put me in mind of Dads army  sketch....


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## patricks148 (May 26, 2020)

PaulS said:



			I have this little feeling that if this was being talked about an Aide of Corbyn then the attitudes would be slightly different and the daggers would be sharp and certainly wouldn’t be trying to justify his actions.
		
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you are not implying double standards are you??

next you will be saying that when an article written by a more lib or left wing point of view is called out, while ones from any right wing website or activist   are fine and get likes from the the same people who call out the others


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## Hacker Khan (May 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry if this already been posted haven't read much today

May 25th 2020

Boris Johnson told today’s Downing Street press conference: ‘I’m finding that I have to wear spectacles for the first time in years – because I think of the likely effects of this thing – so I’m inclined to think there’s some … I think that’s very, very plausible that eyesight can be a problem associated with coronavirus.’ (defending Cummings and his eye sight drive claims)

October 20th 2014

Boris Johnson claimed yesterday that he suffers from extremely poor eyesight and can barely see anything around the house without his glasses on.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ondon-mayor-admits-needing-glasses-house.html

*He gets more like trump every day*

Will be shouting fake news next
		
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I fear that is where we are heading.  The attacks on the media as diversion tactics when they unearth a story that is not favourable to them.  The brazening out of something that in places stretches the limits of credibility to breaking point (didn't tell Boris he was doing this at the time when it was clear if it got out it would be a massive story, 4 year old kid manages to go for 260 miles without wanting a pee, the eyesight story) and arguably legally against it if the excuses we have heard is all he's got. He created a story based around all the times he was actually spotted, after his wife was writing articles about lockdown where she conveniently forgot to say anything about going to Durham.

All of which would have meant that in times past he would have had to go as it was the right and proper thing for a government to do, no matter what flavour they were. But now it doesn't seem that way, indeed the PM seems to be colluding with him with the BS glasses comments you noted. And UK politics will be all the poorer for this as you can guarantee that if he gets away with keeping his job then it has set a precedent for how much BS the public will take and how much they, and any other future governments on either side, will think they can get away with. So yes I agree it does get more like Trump politics every day and it seems like in this country if you do it with a posh accent it suddenly is OK.  It might be worth some just looking around the world and seeing which countries are going down this path of popolularist leaders spouting crap to essentially support their own personal political position, and which ones seem to be acting with more integrity.  Then perhaps correlate that with how they are dealing with the Covid crisis.  And ask ourselves if we really want to go there.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can you provide a reference to that please, as I'm not seeing it in the two relevant pieces of legislation I've looked up.  Is there the possibility that we are looking at different bits of legislation, given our respective locations?
		
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I seem to recall  Dr Calderwood using the expression ' eg for children in abusive situations'.
She also mentioned that 'you should not examine the guidelines for loopholes', just accept them as a general instruction for all.
I obviously accept that advice may not have been heard in England and Wales although they did have a chance to because at that point all CMO's were singing from the same hymn book.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Wasnt he taken I'll on the 28th of March?
		
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I'll  ????
I don't know who was I'll nor when but someone was probably ill.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			And much as I have admired Nicola Sturgeon's handling of things so far it seems a bit rich for her to claim that Boris has chosen "political interest ahead of public interest" by refusing to sack Cummings after she tried to avoid sacking her own adviser for breaking lock down rules.
		
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She was sacked after admitting to a second unknown trip, so virtually sacked herself.
BTW She was not claiming to be infected with Covid 19 at the times of the visits.


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## Wolf (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'll  ????
I don't know who was I'll nor when but someone was probably ill.
		
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Really any need for the grammar police comments, everybody knows what SR meant, people that sit and point out errors like this need to stop being so petty.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			one thing i did notice was when some of the journalists were hard on him he wrote stuff down... not all of them just the ones he was flustered by.
put me in mind of Dads army  sketch....
		
Click to expand...

I like the idea of a black book hitlist but I also wonder if that is a technique to buy some time, compose himself whilst he works out his answer. I have seen people take off their glasses, clean them, put them back on in a similar fashion. It is quite effective at buying those extra few seconds without looking like your brain is whirring. Of course, your answer is far more fun so we will run with that


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## Jimaroid (May 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			All of which would have meant that in times past he would have had to go as it was the right and proper thing for a government to do, no matter what flavour they were.
		
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Let's not forget this remains true in times current, as with Calderwood and Ferguson. 

I'm not disagreeing by the way, I know you know my position on this, I still believe that resignation has become an all-too frequent and populist method to brush aside a moment of controversy at the greater expense of losing the skills and intelligence offered in those roles. Cummings also falls into the bracket, he is clearly good at his job whether we agree with it or not, and it is the double standard that many of us find more outrageous than the offence itself.


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## rudebhoy (May 26, 2020)

Somewhere inside Number 10 is a whiteboard with the list of possible excuses for Barnard Castle which were rejected as being too ridiculous, in favour of the eye-test story.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, of course not.  As discussed previously he said in the briefing they decided to take a short drive as his wife was concerned about his eye sight and he wanted to check he was well enough.  If he felt at any time he wasnt fit enough then I assume (similar to your suggestion) his wife would take over.

There are only two possibilities, either he did what he said or they went out for a jolly in the country.  Without any contrary proof *I feel I should take his word for it.*

Click to expand...

The problem with this is that as much as I _might _wish to take his word for it - there is always going to be '_...£350million for the NHS..._'.

We _know _that Cummings is a wordsmith who aims to manipulate the views of the reader or listener into thinking what he and his employer wants them to think.  That's just a bit of unhelpful historical fact.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Somewhere inside Number 10 is a whiteboard with the list of possible excuses for Barnard Castle which were rejected as being too ridiculous, in favour of the eye-test story.
		
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Mention of No 10 prompts me to ask, which is Boris's primary residence and which his second home? Downing Street or Chequers?


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## AmandaJR (May 26, 2020)

I wish he'd go and then we can get back on with defeating this virus and focussing on the important stuff. His trip to Durham seems plausible but the Barnard Castle (sat by the river?), the stop on the way back from there (wife got out with son who needed a pee and then he got out and they "played a while") is all bs. I get he wanted to test his driving ability for the trip home so just drive an hour's loop without stop and assess from there. His wife may well not be a confident driver so he normally takes on the role on long trips. That's fine and if he proved not to be 100% fit then they could have stayed a couple more days for him to recuperate.

The man is clearly very arrogant and cannot find it in himself to apologise...reminds me of The Fonz 

Get rid Boris and move on.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I seem to recall  Dr Calderwood using the expression ' eg for children in abusive situations'.
She also mentioned that 'you should not examine the guidelines for loopholes', just accept them as a general instruction for all.
I obviously accept that advice may not have been heard in England and Wales although they did have a chance to because at that point all CMO's were singing from the same hymn book.
		
Click to expand...

*Huffpost*

_"Deputy chief medical officer Dr Jenny Harries had said at a daily Downing Street press briefing on March 24 that a small child could be considered “vulnerable” and therefore provide exemptions from the stringent rules if their carers became ill.

Harries said: “Although we are encouraging everybody to stay in their own households…clearly if you have adults who are unable to look after a small child, that is an exceptional circumstance.”

For those who were listening intently – and Cummings seems to have been among those who were – a loosening of the restrictions was seemingly confirmed."_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Huffpost*

_"Deputy chief medical officer Dr Jenny Harries had said at a daily Downing Street press briefing on March 24 that a small child could be considered “vulnerable” and therefore provide exemptions from the stringent rules if their carers became ill._

_Harries said: “Although we are encouraging everybody to stay in their own households…clearly if you have adults who are *unable to look after a small child*, that is an exceptional circumstance.”_

_For those who were listening intently – and Cummings seems to have been among those who were – a loosening of the restrictions was seemingly confirmed."_

Click to expand...

At the time Cummings was deciding what to do, *this *was not the case.  He simply projected what _might _come about and acted according to what he felt was best for his family, despite everything we knew about how the illness generally doesn't badly affect younger, fitter people (like him and his wife) and children.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At the time Cummings was deciding what to do, *this *was not the case.
		
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_Dr Jenny Harries had said at a daily Downing Street press briefing on *March 24 *_

Cummings developed symptoms over the weekend of *March 28-29*.
On Friday, a statement issued by Durham Constabulary suggested Cummings’ father had confirmed his son was self-isolating in the North East as of *March 31*.


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## Blue in Munich (May 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The problem with this is that as much as I _might _wish to take his word for it - there is always going to be '_...£350million for the NHS..._'.

We _know _that Cummings is a wordsmith who aims to manipulate the views of the reader into thinking what he and his employer wants them to think.  That's just a bit of unhelpful historical fact.
		
Click to expand...

Got a picture of the bus with your text actually plastered down the side of it; that actual text saying the NHS was getting £350 million a week? The one I saw said we gove the EU £50 million a day, let’s fund the NHS instead. It didn’t say to what level.


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## road2ruin (May 26, 2020)

Away from the present Cummings argument (and I do appreciate this includes a fair amount of 'whataboutery') this does (in my mind) raise serious questions for the Government in the future should a strict lockdown be required again. Should that happen then you will almost certainly find that a lot of people will use 'instinct' and 'fear for their family' as an excuse to travel around the country as why should they suffer through no childcare etc when there is somewhere else that they could travel to. The Government will struggle to enforce another lockdown, many people who followed the rules to the letter will not be so quick to do so again if other options exist.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



_Dr Jenny Harries had said at a daily Downing Street press briefing on *March 24 *_

Cummings developed symptoms over the weekend of *March 28-29*.
On Friday, a statement issued by Durham Constabulary suggested Cummings’ father had confirmed his son was self-isolating in the North East as of *March 31*.
		
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But as much as I see why he drove to Durham, this makes it worse because he admitted returning to No10 when he suspected his wife had Covid-19, therefore not following the 7 day isolation rule and then risking the Drive knowing his wife was ill and he was at risk.

He can’t play the rules both ways.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Somewhere inside Number 10 is a whiteboard with the list of possible excuses for Barnard Castle which were rejected as being too ridiculous, in favour of the eye-test story.
		
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I would have gone with 'a funny noise coming from the car engine' one.


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## drdel (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



_Dr Jenny Harries had said at a daily Downing Street press briefing on *March 24 *_

Cummings developed symptoms over the weekend of *March 28-29*.
On Friday, a statement issued by Durham Constabulary suggested Cummings’ father had confirmed his son was self-isolating in the North East as of *March 31*.
		
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Yes but I fear your reasonable points are not being considered: the 'Lynchers' have decided; mitigating circumstances will be ignored.

You are right Durham cops did *NOT* call (see their latest brief). Cummings senior called and explained the situation that his son was using an entirely *separate *cottage on the farm. The farm is *jointly* owned by DC and his farther. The Police were not concerned with the isolation implications and *did not* lecture the family but discussed the security matters related to the *threats *DC and his family had experienced at their London property.

Many years ago my wife experienced severe problems at childbirth and with family living over 200 miles made the trip. I'm fully aware that Covid19 was not around then but at the time Governments advice of any type would not have prevented me making the journey and so I'm prepared to cut DC some slack.

Those who suggest that others will now feel free to do as they wish are surely forgetting the idea is to protect yourself by isolating as far as it is possible. If you want to catch the virus by " me to" actions on the basis of what someone else has done just shows their own fundamental stupidity and willingness to expose themselves.


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## rudebhoy (May 26, 2020)

'Michael Gove told LBC he had driven to check his eyesight, but he was "not an authority of driving" as it had taken him seven times to pass his test.'

This is getting totally absurd!


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'll  ????
I don't know who was I'll nor when but someone was probably ill.
		
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Come on, dont you ever get an autocorrect typo. That's not clever.


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## Rlburnside (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Huffpost*

_"Deputy chief medical officer Dr Jenny Harries had said at a daily Downing Street press briefing on March 24 that a small child could be considered “vulnerable” and therefore provide exemptions from the stringent rules if their carers became ill._

_Harries said: “Although we are encouraging everybody to stay in their own households…clearly if you have adults who are unable to look after a small child, that is an exceptional circumstance.”_

_For those who were listening intently – and Cummings seems to have been among those who were – a loosening of the restrictions was seemingly _

_confirmed."_

Click to expand...

The trouble now even if people think he has done the correct thing or not is about trust and integrity and for most people I would suggest that has gone out the window. 

There was a single parent with a autistic child who had to self isolate with a sister that was only a few miles away and they couldn’t help each other because they followed what they thought was correct. 

It’s no wonder there is so much anger at the moment.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Got a picture of the bus with your text actually plastered down the side of it; that actual text saying the NHS was getting £350 million a week? The one I saw said we gove the EU £50 million a day, let’s fund the NHS instead. It didn’t say to what level.
		
Click to expand...

To rehash an old argument - that I thought had been 'resolved' long ago....

The 350 Million figure was the 'Gross' figure - without the Rebate negotiated by Thatcher in 1984. We have never sent 350 Million/week to EU! 250 Million is about what we did/do. So plainly a lie! Here's a (fairly scathing imo) 'Fact Check' article that demonstrates the fallacy! https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-statistics-authority-misuse/

There are also 2 versions of that slogan - the one that appeared on the Bus/Busses. There was NO commitment to spend the 'money saved' on the NHS in that slogan, just a desire to!

However, other approved versions of the slogan(s) exist on signs and other campaign items. Here's a set of both sorts. BoJo appears, associated with some of thode that DO say 'Let's give the 350M the EU takes each week'!
https://www.google.com/search?q=350+million+for+the+nhs&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB758GB760&sxsrf=ALeKk02jvi-hxOK_5lbHJa9D8SX1KTR3Rw:1590486725687&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=wMrS0hu8HUQV4M%3A%2C6dt1r0JavMtj5M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQoGdTF8_fw-SQxXbG3LlC7vdJzsw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiHsLfioNHpAhXtURUIHU6UBr4Q9QEwIHoECAoQCA#imgrc=YvmLgPK6qr6wfM


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## Lord Tyrion (May 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			'Michael Gove told LBC he had driven to check his eyesight, but he was "not an authority of driving" as it had taken him seven times to pass his test.'

This is getting totally absurd!
		
Click to expand...

It is a good job that driving a big old hunk of metal on a public highway is a very safe, sensible and logical thing to do. After all, what could possibly go wrong if your eyesight was found wanting?

Do you think they hear themselves when they say these things?


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## williamalex1 (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I think he covered that and the reason Durham was left out of it 

Click to expand...

Ask Roger Whitaker, he sang I'm going to leave old Durham town


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Really any need for the grammar police comments, everybody knows what SR meant, people that sit and point out errors like this need to stop being so petty.
		
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Thanks.
He also failed to read my signature.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

Well, the 'Cummings Affair' HAS caused a resignation!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52806086


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks.
He also failed to read my signature.
		
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Dear SR,
Perhaps you need to correct your Sig then!
At the moment it suggests it's YOU that might have done the 'nit picking'!
I suggest 'nit pickable...'
Love FH(/FP!)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



_Dr Jenny Harries had said at a daily Downing Street press briefing on *March 24 *_

Cummings developed symptoms over the weekend of *March 28-29*.
On Friday, a statement issued by Durham Constabulary suggested Cummings’ father had confirmed his son was self-isolating in the North East as of *March 31*.
		
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My point is simply that if Cummings and others are going to use interpretation of the detail and statements of clarification to support his actions then you have to look at what was in the detail and what was actually said.

Harries said... _if you have adults who are *unable to look after a small child*, _

Now at the point that Cummings made his decision to travel, both he and his wife were both perfectly able to look after their child - and so the Harries guidance did not apply.


Blue in Munich said:



			Got a picture of the bus with your text actually plastered down the side of it; that actual text saying the NHS was getting £350 million a week? The one I saw said we gove the EU £50 million a day, let’s fund the NHS instead. It didn’t say to what level.
		
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It is a fact that Cummings has himself admitted/stated that the message about the money for the NHS made a massive difference to many voters...it's just a fact that that powerful message worked very well - his wordsmithing did the job intended.  Cummings is a wordsmith - and he uses words very effectively in influencing readers and listeners to the end he desires.  This we know.

And so when I am asked to believe what he says, I simply ask myself whether I think what he is saying is actually true, or whether what he says is simply an explanation that is attractive and that is believable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes but I fear your reasonable points are not being considered: the 'Lynchers' have decided; mitigating circumstances will be ignored.

You are right Durham cops did *NOT* call (see their latest brief). Cummings senior called and explained the situation that his son was using an entirely *separate *cottage on the farm. The farm is *jointly* owned by DC and his farther. The Police were not concerned with the isolation implications and *did not* lecture the family but discussed the security matters related to the *threats *DC and his family had experienced at their London property.

Many years ago my wife experienced severe problems at childbirth and with family living over 200 miles made the trip. I'm fully aware that Covid19 was not around then but at the time Governments advice of any type would not have prevented me making the journey and so I'm prepared to cut DC some slack.

Those who suggest that others will now feel free to do as they wish are surely forgetting the idea is to protect yourself by isolating as far as it is possible. If you want to catch the virus by " me to" actions on the basis of what someone else has done just shows their own fundamental stupidity and willingness to expose themselves.
		
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Using the term “Lynchers” does you no favours as it’s people from his own party and now an MP resigns his post who are not happy with his behaviour.

Are you genuinely saying he made no mistakes in your opinion and *ALL *actions were ok.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

The Government's chief legal adviser, said there had been no legal breaches by Mr Cummings despite his travelling 264 miles with his wife and four-year-old child to his parents’ farm in Durham at the end of March at the height of the Government’s lockdown.

“_No laws have been broken_,” she told ministers,


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## PaulS (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The Government's chief legal adviser, said there had been no legal breaches by Mr Cummings despite his travelling 264 miles with his wife and four-year-old child to his parents’ farm in Durham at the end of March at the height of the Government’s lockdown.

“_No laws have been broken_,” she told ministers, 

Click to expand...

Lockdown isolation rules and guidelines were not laws 

He broke the guidelines that he helped set up


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## Blue in Munich (May 26, 2020)

Kaz said:



			OK I understand where you are coming from.
		
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Having had a re-read, I can now see that potentially something was added regarding abuse, but it is not child specific, and it is definitely not the same section under which Cummings appears to be entitled to an exemption regarding his child, although if his claims regarding the threats are correct, he could be entitled to exemption on 2 separate grounds.

Oh, and for what it's worth the Scottish & English exemptions are pretty much identical (they probably are identical, but I haven't fully proof read them to compare them so I'm trying not to leave myself open to comments from the usual trolls & pedants [of which you are not one ]   )


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## drdel (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Using the term “Lynchers” does you no favours as it’s people from his own party and now an MP resigns his post who are not happy with his behaviour.

Are you genuinely saying he made no mistakes in your opinion and *ALL *actions were ok.
		
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I ws not aware I limited my classification, that is in your head and your political intent.

Neither did I say ALL was OK, my point merely suggested extenuating circumstances and that I understood his reasoning.

I have prevously said I was reserving judgement, perhaps reading the content rather than reading what you want to see may be a hood idea.

Enjoy the lynching.


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## Blue in Munich (May 26, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Lockdown isolation rules and guidelines were not laws

He broke the guidelines that he helped set up
		
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And the guidelines are a simplification of the legislation, reduced to the lowest common denominator, so that the ordinary man in the street can understand them, so there will be differences between guidelines and the law.  So whilst he might have broken the guidelines, did he actually break the law?  And I'm pretty sure you know the answer to that. 

If you tried to get the vast majority of the public to understand the actual law, you end up unconscious banging your head against a brick wall.  God knows I struggled and I was used to trying to make sense of legalese, albeit a few years ago.


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## MegaSteve (May 26, 2020)

Just back from a walk over towards the Lido... Any evidence of lockdown/distancing have absolutely disappeared into the ether... IMHO a lot of that firmly lies at the feet of government... Their spineless behaviour, over the last few days, has hardly been an indicator of leading by example...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			I ws not aware I limited my classification, that is in your head and your political intent.

Neither did I say ALL was OK, my point merely suggested extenuating circumstances and that I understood his reasoning.

I have prevously said I was reserving judgement, perhaps reading the content rather than reading what you want to see may be a hood idea.

Enjoy the lynching.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe practise what you preach as I have come out and said his explanation for travelling to Durham was acceptable imo.

Happy to be honest and open and have my mind changed when faced with more information, you seem to accept everything and anything someone with a blue rosette says.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			'Michael Gove told LBC he had driven to check his eyesight, but he was "not an authority of driving" as it had taken him seven times to pass his test.'

This is getting totally absurd!
		
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They certainly seem to have pressed the 'self destruct' button.
Johnson polling dropped 20 points overnight, mind you it was only on 19 to start with.


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## rulefan (May 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Any evidence of lockdown/distancing have absolutely disappeared into the ether..
		
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More fool them.


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## MegaSteve (May 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			More fool them.
		
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Not merely foolish it's downright dangerous... A 'bounce back' is the last thing we need to be facing...


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## AmandaJR (May 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Just back from a walk over towards the Lido... Any evidence of lockdown/distancing have absolutely disappeared into the ether... IMHO a lot of that firmly lies at the feet of government... Their spineless behaviour, over the last few days, has hardly been an indicator of leading by example...
		
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Personally I don't buy that. Are we all headless chickens who can't make our own decisions about right and wrong, regardless of what others do. I'd suggest said people would have behaved exactly the same regardless of Cummings. Apart from the law, I also never buy into the "it'll set a precedent...do it for one and we'll have to do it for others" etc etc. 

Anyway, as ever the press have missed the most important topic of yesterday and failed to ask Sturgeon "how are you getting your hair cut".


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## spongebob59 (May 26, 2020)

Wigs. 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Personally I don't buy that. Are we all headless chickens who can't make our own decisions about right and wrong, regardless of what others do. I'd suggest said people would have behaved exactly the same regardless of Cummings. Apart from the law, I also never buy into the "it'll set a precedent...do it for one and we'll have to do it for others" etc etc.

Anyway, as ever the press have missed the most important topic of yesterday and failed to ask Sturgeon "how are you getting your hair cut". 

Click to expand...

Maybe she has a French lodger who is a barber?


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## drdel (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe practise what you preach as I have come out and said his explanation for travelling to Durham was acceptable imo.

Happy to be honest and open and have my mind changed when faced with more information, you seem to accept everything and anything someone with a blue rosette says.

Click to expand...

I said I reserved judgement but you claim I accept everything and I have stated before that I am not a Conservative, but obviously you will decide to ignore it: there is little to gain for the thread in thee and me continuing discusing matters.


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## MegaSteve (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Personally I don't buy that. Are we all headless chickens who can't make our own decisions about right and wrong, regardless of what others do. I'd suggest said people would have behaved exactly the same regardless of Cummings. Apart from the law, I also never buy into the "it'll set a precedent...do it for one and we'll have to do it for others" etc etc. 

Anyway, as ever the press have missed the most important topic of yesterday and failed to ask Sturgeon "how are you getting your hair cut". 

Click to expand...

My view is that by not taking a firm stance, with Cummings, the situation started going pear shaped too rapidly to be recovered... In an attempt to get the spotlight elsewhere Boris, more or less, signalled a relaxing/ending of lockdown measures... Now, whilst I am normally wholly against micro management by government there are circumstances, where I concede, some form leadership is in order... 

As I understand it the constabulary were called to the Lido, yesterday, and I suspect their job wasn't made easier in the knowledge government were in the process of letting one of their own of the hook for failing to show some common sense self discipline...


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## Rlburnside (May 26, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			My view is that by not taking a firm stance with Cummings the situation started going pear shaped too rapidly to be recovered... In an attempt to get the spotlight elsewhere Boris, more or less, signalled a relaxing/ending of lockdown measures... Now, whilst I am normally wholly against micro management by government there are circumstances, where I concede, some form leadership is in order...

As I understand it the constabulary were called to the Lido, yesterday, and I suspect their job wasn't made easier in the knowledge government were in the process of letting one of their own of the hook for failing to show some common sense self discipline...
		
Click to expand...

Yes I thought the news of relaxing more lockdown was a deliberate ploy to deflect, does he really think the public are that gullible?

It would have been funny if it’s not so serious  when he pulled his glasses out of his pocket and implied the virus has affected his eyesight when he’s said years ago he can hardly see without glasses.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			...
Anyway, as ever the press have missed the most important topic of yesterday and failed to ask Sturgeon "how are you getting your hair cut". 

Click to expand...

This vid might help/solve that question. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=260998448271617


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## chrisd (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Anyway, as ever the press have missed the most important topic of yesterday and failed to ask Sturgeon "how are you getting your hair cut". 

Click to expand...

Maybe Boris should ask the press, and particularly Laura , Beth etc where they are managing to get their hair cut, coloured etc as I thought all hairdressers were still not working 🤔


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Anyway, as ever the press have missed the most important topic of yesterday and failed to ask Sturgeon "how are you getting your hair cut". 

Click to expand...

Doing it herself, pictured evidence.
You never see the back of her head though.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Yes I thought the news of relaxing more lockdown was a deliberate ploy to deflect, does he really think the public are that gullible?
		
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Well they fell for the 'immigrant' queues and the £350m bus,,,,,,,,,,,so yes


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## AmandaJR (May 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			This vid might help/solve that question. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=260998448271617

Click to expand...

Nope - way too good a job for her to have done it herself.


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## patricks148 (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Nope - way too good a job for her to have done it herself.
		
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she posted last week with pics of her doing it herself


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## Dellboy (May 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Doing it herself, pictured evidence.
You never see the back of her head though.

Click to expand...

Saw it once and that was enough for most


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## AmandaJR (May 26, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			she posted last week with pics of her doing it herself
		
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Still not believing it! Way, way, way too perfect which with her short style is very difficult.


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## patricks148 (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Still not believing it! Way, way, way too perfect which with her short style is very difficult.
		
Click to expand...

really, looks like bits are diff colours, if i didn't know better i would have said Elton might be missing a wig... or  a cat


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## AmandaJR (May 26, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			really, looks like bits are diff colours, if i didn't know better i would have said Elton might be missing a wig... or  a cat
		
Click to expand...

Possible! The colour bit should be easy. If she has done it herself she can save a fortune in hairdressing costs!


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## patricks148 (May 26, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Possible! The colour bit should be easy. If she has done it herself she can save a fortune in hairdressing costs!
		
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she won't be paying anyway


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			she won't be paying anyway

Click to expand...

She is a taxpayer so probably a weeee bit. couple of hairs maybees,


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She is a taxpayer so probably a weeee bit. couple of hairs maybees,
		
Click to expand...

I believe she'd have a significant clothing/appearance allowance.


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## AmandaJR (May 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I believe she'd have a significant clothing/appearance allowance.
		
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She should spend it more wisely...

She's not as bad as Theresa May was though!


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## rudebhoy (May 27, 2020)

Horrible rag, but today's front page is a belter, Viz-like.


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## Beezerk (May 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Horrible rag, but today's front page is a belter, Viz-like.

View attachment 30883

Click to expand...

Funny, but at the same time irresponsible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think Matt Hancock has stood on a landmine trying to answer that first question from the public. Will be interesting....
		
Click to expand...

Jenrick this morning has said that they have looked into it and it's a police law enforcement matter and not something the government should get involved in. Not quite what MattH was alluding to...but there you go.


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## DRW (May 27, 2020)

Another one who went for a long drive to see his parents, clearly of course to drop off essential supplies during the lockdown and now implying the government does not control the police, no the government only makes policy and the law. Its the police problem. Its all bonkers.

Not sure how these people get to the point, where they have no shame in what they say or their actions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

Kaz said:



			To extend my metaphor, Hancock stood on a landmine and now government are frantically trying to defuse it before it explodes.

Utterly depressing the mishandling of the situation. Meanwhile we need to hope the spike in Covid cases yesterday was down to a lag in reporting after the holiday weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Did Hancock misspeak? - Jenrick was asked - well apparently Hancock's answer was his immediate, and perhaps not fully considered, response to a question he didn't expect...

No matter - Jenrick's wriggling this morning was a nice counter-balance to the complete and utter guff spouted with 100% certainty by Andrew Bridgen on Newsnight last night.  Though why should I be surprised that Bridgen = Guff


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## rudebhoy (May 27, 2020)

DRW said:



			Another one who went for a long drive to see his parents, clearly of course to drop off essential supplies during the lockdown and now implying the government does not control the police, no the government only makes policy and the law. Its the police problem. Its all bonkers.

Not sure how these people get to the point, where they have no shame in what they say or their actions.
		
Click to expand...

He drove 110 miles to go to his second home (a £1m mansion), and then another 40 miles to his parents. His excuse was he was dropping off food and medicines. Doesn't he know pharmacies and supermarkets deliver these days, and there are local charities who will help out if you are really stuck? I'd love to know how many "little people" have driven 150 miles to drop stuff off? Am betting very few, because they knew it was wrong, and there are other solutions.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I believe she'd have a significant clothing/appearance allowance.
		
Click to expand...

Unlike Johnson or Cummings, they seem to shop at ASDA and Oxfam


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

With Test, Track and Trace high on the political agenda - it's two weeks since Mrs SILH provided her identify and residency evidence to NHS Professionals in respect of her application for a job as a Contact Tracer - and she has heard nothing.  Clearly they have all the CTs they need, which is good.

And I keep hearing of a guacamole strategy in this context...curious...


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With Test, Track and Trace high on the political agenda - it's two weeks since Mrs SILH provided her identify and residency evidence to NHS Professionals in respect of her application for a job as a Contact Tracer - and she has heard nothing.  Clearly they have all the CTs they need, which is good.

And I keep hearing of a guacamole strategy in this context...curious...

Click to expand...

Would be good to have a reply though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would be good to have a reply though.
		
Click to expand...

On the 13th May she got an initial acknowledgement from her application (submitted 10th May) asking for evidence which she provided the same day.  No acknowledgement of receipt of evidence - and application status on-line has not changed from 'seeking trust approval'.  And so currently (as in the Email of 13th)

_Once we have checked your application, we will be in touch to arrange an interview during which we will also check your identity and Right to Work documentation.  _

As you say - would be nice to have some form of update. Because she is now feeling that she is frankly not that bothered about the job as NHSP don't seem to be that bothered about engaging with her.  From the email the intent is clearly to do the interview whilst evidence checking is ongoing.   Anyway - Jeremy knows.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

Given that Cummings has told us that neither he nor the PM can recall the conversation they had about him having been in Durham etc as they were both suffering the after effects of the disease - What Did Raab Know about Cummings heading off to Durham whilst he was deputising for the PM whilst the PM was ill.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given that Cummings has told us that neither he nor the PM can recall the conversation they had about him having been in Durham etc as they were both suffering the after effects of the disease - What Did Raab Know about Cummings heading off to Durham whilst he was deputising for the PM whilst the PM was ill.
		
Click to expand...

Why does it matter?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why does it matter?
		
Click to expand...

If the PM was out the game when Cummings decided to head north, it might have been a good idea to discuss that decision with the acting-PM.  No?  Just in case Raab thought it might not go down that well if the public got a sniff of it?  Did Raab approve Cummings cunning plan?

All about openness and clarity...and that's what really matters - as the government has told us they will provide.  Openness and clarity.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the PM was out the game when Cummings decided to head north, it night have been a good idea to discuss that decision with the acting-PM.  No?  Just in case Raab thought it might not go down that well if the public got a sniff of it?  Did Raab approve Cummings cunning plan?

All about openness and clarity...and that's what really matters - as the government has told us they will provide.  Openness and clarity.
		
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PM wasn’t out the game at the end of March and we were being told he was still in charge, he was admitted to hospital 10 days after testing positive around 4/5 April. cummings had been up north nearly a week by then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			PM wasn’t out the game at the end of March and we were being told he was still in charge, he was admitted to hospital 10 days after testing positive around 4/5 April. cummings had been up north nearly a week by then.
		
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So...Cummings *didn't *tell the PM of what he was going to do before he did it...ah well...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			PM wasn’t out the game at the end of March and we were being told he was still in charge, he was admitted to hospital 10 days after testing positive around 4/5 April. cummings had been up north nearly a week by then.
		
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I cannot understand why no one has picked up on this.
According to Tory HQ Johnson was running the government from his hospital bed.
According to Cummings he was at deaths door.
So many holes in Cummings very long statement.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Just back from a walk over towards the Lido... Any evidence of lockdown/distancing have absolutely disappeared into the ether... IMHO a lot of that firmly lies at the feet of government... Their spineless behaviour, over the last few days, has hardly been an indicator of leading by example...
		
Click to expand...

Lockdown disappeared in Devon & Cornwall long before the Cummings affair, their now coming to kill themselves. Running out of Darwin Awards, Stay Out of The Water doesn't seem to get through to e everyone but I suppose they can use the Cummings excuse when they get to the pearly gates.

Using someone else's stupidity as a reason is a little silly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I cannot understand why no one has picked up on this.
According to Tory HQ Johnson was running the government from his hospital bed.
According to Cummings he was at deaths door.
So many holes in Cummings very long statement.
		
Click to expand...

Or people are holding trowels and making holes.
I’m not sticking up for cummings, but if the questions weren’t asked over the pm’s health at the time they are irrelevant now.


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## MegaSteve (May 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Lockdown disappeared in Devon & Cornwall long before the Cummings affair, their now coming to kill themselves. Running out of Darwin Awards, Stay Out of The Water doesn't seem to get through to e everyone but I suppose they can use the Cummings excuse when they get to the pearly gates.

Using someone else's stupidity as a reason is a little silly.
		
Click to expand...

Rightly or wrongly I've put the relatively good behaviour, in these parts, down to folk being aware of the high number of cases locally... Worryingly the last few days has seen that behaviour slide downhill...

And, if Cummings had used some of the brains he's attributed with he wouldn't have been in mine, or others, firing line...


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## rudebhoy (May 27, 2020)

For the 5th day in a row, the actual number of people tested is 'unavailable'. So the only figure we get is the one inflated by the number of test kits posted out. This stinks.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			For the 5th day in a row, the actual number of people tested is 'unavailable'. So the only figure we get is the one inflated by the number of test kits posted out. This stinks.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public

Click to expand...

Could have sworn they have shown them on the briefings every day.


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## patricks148 (May 27, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			For the 5th day in a row, the actual number of people tested is 'unavailable'. So the only figure we get is the one inflated by the number of test kits posted out. This stinks.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public

Click to expand...

Prob down to Boris blabbing his mouth off and saying they would be doing 200,000 by the end of May and don't have the capacity to post out 130,000 kits.


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## larmen (May 27, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Prob down to Boris blabbing his mouth off and saying they would be doing 200,000 by the end of May and don't have the capacity to post out 130,000 kits.
		
Click to expand...

I never know why he gave an absolute number as a target. He failed on 100k, should have gone generic and said something like significant increase, or a vague number as a stretch target but possibly under. Insisting on a number is just an opportunity to fail.


----------



## Old Skier (May 27, 2020)

larmen said:



			I never know why he gave an absolute number as a target. He failed on 100k, should have gone generic and said something like significant increase, or a vague number as a stretch target but possibly under. Insisting on a number is just an opportunity to fail.
		
Click to expand...

To many people out enjoying themselves to bother with testing I assume.


----------



## DanFST (May 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			To many people out enjoying themselves to bother with testing I assume.
		
Click to expand...

I make you right, can still get a test tomorrow morning here.


----------



## spongebob59 (May 27, 2020)

Matti's been taken off News night later after her rant last night


----------



## Kellfire (May 27, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Matti's been taken off News night later after her rant last night
		
Click to expand...

If by rant you mean speaking the truth.


----------



## rudebhoy (May 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Could have sworn they have shown them on the briefings every day.
		
Click to expand...

No, they only ever quote the artificially inflated total. I've noticed that some of the scientists look quite uncomfortable when that figure comes up on the slides.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (May 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Lockdown disappeared in Devon & Cornwall long before the Cummings affair, their now coming to kill themselves. Running out of Darwin Awards, Stay Out of The Water doesn't seem to get through to e everyone but I suppose they can use the Cummings excuse when they get to the pearly gates.

Using someone else's stupidity as a reason is a little silly.
		
Click to expand...





Haven’t seen Imurg for a few days, wonder where he has been?


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## Imurg (May 28, 2020)

I tell you it was bloody hot sat there all day........


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Matti's been taken off News night later after her rant last night
		
Click to expand...

The State media censors at work.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 30903


Haven’t seen Imurg for a few days, wonder where he has been?
		
Click to expand...

Hang on second, if I had posted that photo some posters on here will be saying it is photoshop/bad camera angle/fake news/ 2019 photo/they are all from the same household etc etc.


----------



## drdel (May 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The State media censors at work.
		
Click to expand...

She says she asked for the day off!


----------



## Slab (May 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hang on second, if I had posted that photo some posters on here will be saying it is photoshop/bad camera angle/fake news/ 2019 photo/they are all from the same household etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

Are you seriously suggesting this is edited/clever angle and Death wasn't really at that beach


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			She says she asked for the day off!
		
Click to expand...

Aye right, as we say up here. 


BTW Strange how no one seems to have picked up on Handcock 's 'civic duty' comment whilst attempting to explain how his version of TTT will [not] be enforced.
Perhaps he needs to remind his Westminster colleagues before speaking to the English public.

Scottish version to be called 'Test and Protect'.... Tap the App.
Quite appropriate as we are entering a Tap's Aff spell of weather.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

Slab said:



			Are you seriously suggesting this is edited/clever angle and Death wasn't really at that beach 

Click to expand...

DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh I did not even spot Mr Death...….


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## PhilTheFragger (May 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh I did not even spot Mr Death...….

Click to expand...

WOOOSSHHHH !!🙄


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			WOOOSSHHHH !!🙄
		
Click to expand...

I blame my diffractiona.  I shall have to drive to Whitby to check out my eyesight.


----------



## Foxholer (May 28, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52819189


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## IanM (May 28, 2020)

BBC have a new game .

Return to any version of normality in the rest of the World - lets all celebrate triumph over adversity!!! 

Return to any version of normality  in "England"  - foolhardy dicing with death!    

mmm ;-)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

Oooh - Durham police...disagreeing with the PM and most of the cabinet...


----------



## IanM (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oooh - Durham police - get you...disagreeing with the PM and most of the cabinet...
		
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Funny how only some politicos breaking the lock-down is newsworthy?  I would have though MPs are more of more interest than advisors?  I guess it depends on their allegiance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

IanM said:



			BBC have a new game .

Return to any version of normality in the rest of the World - lets all celebrate triumph over adversity!!!

Return to any version of normality  in "England"  - foolhardy dicing with death!   

mmm ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Not how the BBC is reporting 'return to normality' in the USA...mind you - what can be normal in the USA given who they have 'in charge'.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

IanM said:



			Funny how only some politicos breaking the lock-down is newsworthy?  I would have though MPs are more of more interest than advisors?  I guess it depends on their allegiance.
		
Click to expand...

Cummings story remains newsworthy, because Hancock's determination to stick with the PM's view rather undermines Hancock's essential message to us all on Test and Trace.

Contact Tracers access to the system proving problematic?  Support tell them to keep hitting 'refresh'...well I suppose it's a step on from being told to 'shut down and restart'


----------



## Mudball (May 28, 2020)

NSFW language...  but worth the Jonathan Pie rant >.


----------



## patricks148 (May 28, 2020)

I'm supprised by the whole Emily Maitis ticking off, they don't appear to bothererd about impartiality when Kuenssberg is up to her usual tricks


----------



## drdel (May 28, 2020)

Meanwhile Ian Blackford admits he travelled 600 mile to his estate in Scotland rather than stay in his subsidised London address.


----------



## IanM (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not how the BBC is reporting 'return to normality' in the USA...mind you - what can be normal in the USA given who they have 'in charge'.
		
Click to expand...

Even you said why that is the case.  I am of course wrong, I shouldnt have included the USA.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cummings story remains newsworthy, because Hancock's determination to stick with the PM's view rather undermines Hancock's essential message to us all on Test and Trace.
' 

Click to expand...

Do folk still "whoosh" on message boards?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile Ian Blackford admits he travelled 600 mile to his estate in Scotland rather than stay in his subsidised London address.
		
Click to expand...

You mean just as all MP’s from all parties did when Parliament was stood down, ie, went to their “home” address rather than stay in their subsidised London address’s.

How did this story break?


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## MegaSteve (May 28, 2020)

Too many covid related irritations being posted in "random irritations" ...


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## drdel (May 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You mean just as all MP’s from all parties did when Parliament was stood down, ie, went to their “home” address rather than stay in their subsidised London address’s.

How did this story break?
		
Click to expand...

So I guess that means if Cummings was an MP his trip to his farm would have been OK...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			So I guess that means if Cummings was an MP his trip to his farm would have been OK...

Click to expand...

Don’t care, cummings trip to Durham is good for me.

boris should be sacked for going to Chequers though.


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## pauljames87 (May 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52819189

Click to expand...

I'm so confused with Scotland. They didn't allow golf back until tomorrow as it was. When England did , yet now they are going to go even more lax than we in England currently are (could change tonight)

Mixed messages much


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm so confused with Scotland. They didn't allow golf back until tomorrow as it was. When England did , yet now they are going to go even more lax than we in England currently are (could change tonight)

Mixed messages much
		
Click to expand...

I can’t see that much difference to what we have right now and for the last 3 weeks ?


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## SatchFan (May 28, 2020)

I'm confused by the words sunbathing and Scotland in the same sentence.


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## pauljames87 (May 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can’t see that much difference to what we have right now and for the last 3 weeks ?
		
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Unless that isn't the article I read on another site it said two households can meet in gardens but must respect social distancing .. up to 8 people 

So family and friends can meet in garden

That's very different


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## Foxholer (May 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can’t see that much difference to what we have right now and for the last 3 weeks ?
		
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You mean you haven't noticed the 'almost back to normal' amount of traffic on the roads?!
Certainly been a jump in traffic this week in the ones I (Key Worker) use - and hear pass my place!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

SatchFan said:



			I'm confused by the words sunbathing and Scotland in the same sentence.
		
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You know the sun is out in Scotland when the big lads are seen with simmets on display.  That's sunbathing.


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## NearHull (May 28, 2020)

Scottish Golf Union guidance includes 3 and 4 balls so long as the group originates from two households.  Standby for the odd mixed 4 balls in the middle of 2balls.  
(I am thinking that Boris will not want to be outdone by Nicola and may expand the England households meeting of one person to mirror Scotland guidance/restrictions of two households of no more than eight people very soon)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

A curious little factette - that my reading (of The History of Scotland by Agnes Mure Mackenzie) suggests is in fact true...

John Baliol - King of Scotland before Robert the Bruce - was born in Barnard Castle (!) and had the nickname _Toom Tabard_ - which roughly translates from Scots as _Empty Jacket_ - on the basis of him being a useless leader with no idea 

And then came King Robert I - a very different sort of leader.


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## User62651 (May 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm so confused with Scotland. They didn't allow golf back until tomorrow as it was. When England did , yet now they are going to go even more lax than we in England currently are (could change tonight)

Mixed messages much
		
Click to expand...

Now we can sit in parks or on beaches and golf, fish etc. 2 families can meet outside, no more than 8 people.
Garden centres can open(ones affiliated to DIY centres already were).
Drive through takeaway is good to go.
Isn't that about it?
Any gradual lockdown lifting is going to be tricky, think it's now 'you should' rather than 'you must'.


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hang on second, if I had posted that photo some posters on here will be saying it is photoshop/bad camera angle/fake news/ 2019 photo/they are all from the same household etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

Not surprising as most of the stuff you post is either fake or skewed.


----------



## Old Skier (May 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52819189

Click to expand...

Gave up when the strap line was still stay at home.


----------



## Old Skier (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oooh - Durham police...disagreeing with the PM and most of the cabinet...
		
Click to expand...

And the statement said May Have not Did so they aren't disagreeing with anyone.


----------



## pauljames87 (May 28, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Now we can sit in parks or on beaches and golf, fish etc. 2 families can meet outside, no more than 8 people.
Garden centres can open(ones affiliated to DIY centres already were).
Drive through takeaway is good to go.
Isn't that about it?
Any gradual lockdown lifting is going to be tricky, think it's now 'you should' rather than 'you must'.
		
Click to expand...

Boris just announced 6 for England with the date being from Monday rather than tomorrow like our friends to the north 

Always have to be different


----------



## User62651 (May 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Boris just announced 6 for England with the date being from Monday rather than tomorrow like our friends to the north

Always have to be different
		
Click to expand...

4 different approaches within UK, not just 2. 
With the worst death rate per million in the whole world and the 2nd worst total deaths in the whole world, perhaps looking at different approaches to No.10s is not such a bad thing? 
Lives could depend on it.


----------



## pauljames87 (May 28, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			4 different approaches within UK, not just 2. 
With the worst death rate per million in the whole world and the 2nd worst total deaths in the whole world, perhaps looking at different approaches to No.10s is not such a bad thing? 
Lives could depend on it.
		
Click to expand...

You only really hear about 2 tho. Could be because that's all I notice when I'm scanning the news but you are correct 4 approaches


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile Ian Blackford admits he travelled 600 mile to his estate in Scotland rather than stay in his subsidised London address.
		
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Aye he had to travel all the way from Sky to Portree [] and take a ferry I'd you believe some of the guff you see.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm so confused with Scotland. They didn't allow golf back until tomorrow as it was. When England did , yet now they are going to go even more lax than we in England currently are (could change tonight)

Mixed messages much
		
Click to expand...

Yes England should have followed Scotland's lead, they normally do when it comes to UK health matters.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

Such a very Trumpian briefing.  Not allowing the experts to answer questions directed to them - yes - they subsequently said they absolutely don't want to get into politics of it - but Johnson shouldn't be pretending that he is 'protecting' them - they are grown up enough to decide their own answer.  And cutting off journalists when he decided to not answer a question and not allowing a follow-up. 

And the moans come up about the journalists repeating questions Johnson is avoiding - yes - they should absolutely continue to ask these questions.  Watch the Daily US Press Briefings and see how the press are starting to support each other when the presidents mouthpiece masquerading as the Press Sec. diverts, refuses to answer or ignores the questioner. The US press have got so fed up with this behaviour that they are now simply picking up from where their colleague left off and asking the same question.

Anyway - Today IMO.  Very poor form from our Prime Minister.  If he is going to take the briefing then for goodness sake he has to be prepared to answer the questions he currently refuses to answer.  The more Johnson and his buddies try to shut down questions on Cummings - the more the question will be asked about what Cummings might have on our PM?  And trust goes out the window as quickly as the River Tees flows past Barnard Castle.  And without trust or belief in Johnson and the government the Test and Trace/Track will struggle.


----------



## pauljames87 (May 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes England should have followed Scotland's lead, they normally do when it comes to UK health matters.
		
Click to expand...

I was expecting us to follow. Bit disappointed have to wait until Monday but waited this long

The nans are ready. They will be in the garden with little lady from next week little social distance to see her. Both sets can't wait


----------



## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Such a very Trumpian briefing.  Not allowing the experts to answer questions directed to them - yes - they subsequently said they absolutely don't want to get into politics of it - but Johnson shouldn't be pretending that he is 'protecting' them - they are grown up enough to decide their own answer.  And cutting off journalists when he decided to not answer a question and not allowing a follow-up.

And the moans come up about the journalists repeating questions Johnson is avoiding - yes - they should absolutely continue to ask these questions.  Watch the Daily US Press Briefings and see how the press are starting to support each other when the presidents mouthpiece masquerading as the Press Sec. diverts, refuses to answer or ignores the questioner. The US press have got so fed up with this behaviour that they are now simply picking up from where their colleague left off and asking the same question.

Anyway - Today IMO.  Very poor form from our Prime Minister.  If he is going to take the briefing then for goodness sake he has to be prepared to answer the questions he currently refuses to answer.  The more Johnson and his buddies try to shut down questions on Cummings - the more the question will be asked about what Cummings might have on our PM?  And trust goes out the window as quickly as the River Tees flows past Barnard Castle.  And without trust or belief in Johnson and the government the Test and Trace/Track will struggle.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry SILH but that post is absolute tripe imo. Boris was right to point out that the scientists shouldn't be directly asked to answer political questions. Boris isn't, by the looks of it, going to sack Cummings so why answer the same question time after time? How does Cummings have "something on our PM" , I suspect its because Cummings us considered vital to the future plans, especially Brexit and thereby lies the point - you remainers are keen to see him go, so to weaken the Brexit and hope that we then look to ask for the extension - no chance mate!


----------



## Old Skier (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Such a very Trumpian briefing.  Not allowing the experts to answer questions directed to them - yes - they subsequently said they absolutely don't want to get into politics of it - but Johnson shouldn't be pretending that he is 'protecting' them - they are grown up enough to decide their own answer.  And cutting off journalists when he decided to not answer a question and not allowing a follow-up.

And the moans come up about the journalists repeating questions Johnson is avoiding - yes - they should absolutely continue to ask these questions.  Watch the Daily US Press Briefings and see how the press are starting to support each other when the presidents mouthpiece masquerading as the Press Sec. diverts, refuses to answer or ignores the questioner. The US press have got so fed up with this behaviour that they are now simply picking up from where their colleague left off and asking the same question.

Anyway - Today IMO.  Very poor form from our Prime Minister.  If he is going to take the briefing then for goodness sake he has to be prepared to answer the questions he currently refuses to answer.  The more Johnson and his buddies try to shut down questions on Cummings - the more the question will be asked about what Cummings might have on our PM?  And trust goes out the window as quickly as the River Tees flows past Barnard Castle.  And without trust or belief in Johnson and the government the Test and Trace/Track will struggle.
		
Click to expand...

Hells bells, another poor briefing says the expert of all briefings. It was never fair to try and politicis the two experts, the feed from BBC said case closed. It's a dead story and we who wish to can express our views at the next election.  Our MP has already had the whisper that she might not be the candidate next time around because she sat on the fence.


----------



## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Hells bells, another poor briefing says the expert of all briefings. It was never fair to try and politicis the two experts, the feed from BBC said case closed. It's a dead story and we who wish to can express our views at the next election.  Our MP has already had the whisper that she might not be the candidate next time around because she sat on the fence.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it also interesting that the 4 Labour MP's who (apparently) broke the lockdown eg Kinnock etc, haven't been asked to resign by Starmer or the crew on here baying for Cummings departure ?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Such a very Trumpian briefing.  Not allowing the experts to answer questions directed to them - yes - they subsequently said they absolutely don't want to get into politics of it - but Johnson shouldn't be pretending that he is 'protecting' them - they are grown up enough to decide their own answer.  And cutting off journalists when he decided to not answer a question and not allowing a follow-up.

And the moans come up about the journalists repeating questions Johnson is avoiding - yes - they should absolutely continue to ask these questions.  Watch the Daily US Press Briefings and see how the press are starting to support each other when the presidents mouthpiece masquerading as the Press Sec. diverts, refuses to answer or ignores the questioner. The US press have got so fed up with this behaviour that they are now simply picking up from where their colleague left off and asking the same question.

Anyway - Today IMO.  Very poor form from our Prime Minister.  If he is going to take the briefing then for goodness sake he has to be prepared to answer the questions he currently refuses to answer.  The more Johnson and his buddies try to shut down questions on Cummings - the more the question will be asked about what Cummings might have on our PM?  And trust goes out the window as quickly as the River Tees flows past Barnard Castle.  And without trust or belief in Johnson and the government the Test and Trace/Track will struggle.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but another political post with clear Brexit undertones and I thought Johnson did well especially with another daft and pointless Kuenssberg question regarding Cummings (and she has a track record of pointless questions during Covid) to reiterate the matter is done (as per the BBC ticker) and whether you think it has been swept under the carpet or not and it makes Johnson weak, he has made it crystal clear he won't be sacking Cumming so move on. He protected the experts from getting sucked into dealing with political questions and as for a Trumpian briefing I think that's a very weak and lazy comparision and at least Johnson had the decency to answer the questions (again) rather than Trump like turning on the reporter and ranting and raving


----------



## rulefan (May 28, 2020)

If Robert Peston has decided enough is enough (ITV this evening) I reckon it is running out of steam. It' s 4 years before another election.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 28, 2020)

SatchFan said:



			I'm confused by the words sunbathing and Scotland in the same sentence.
		
Click to expand...


Having got properly frazzled on Elie beach I can testify it is possible...


----------



## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And the statement said May Have not Did so they aren't disagreeing with anyone.
		
Click to expand...

Their actual statement differs massively from the press version.

Some people never learn.


----------



## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Isn't it also interesting that the 4 Labour MP's who (apparently) broke the lockdown eg Kinnock etc, haven't been asked to resign by Starmer or the crew on here baying for Cummings departure ?
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it.

Think I posted same earlier. 

Got lost in the froth.


----------



## patricks148 (May 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile Ian Blackford admits he travelled 600 mile to his estate in Scotland rather than stay in his subsidised London address.
		
Click to expand...

did it for childcare reasons i'd imagine and from sneck to Broadford was to test his eyes

andas  for estate, council eastate maybe


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Their actual statement differs massively from the press version.

Some people never learn.
		
Click to expand...

Only just seen the news .
In what way does it differ?

He has confessed on live TV.
So why can’t the Police say he has or hasn’t.


----------



## Old Skier (May 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Isn't it.

Think I posted same earlier.

Got lost in the froth.
		
Click to expand...

Time to move on, man did wrong, nothing going to happen with reporters trying to keep the story going. As to the argument, he did so I will, crack on, I know idiots that speed, drink and drive and are most probably not insured, doesn't mean I'm going to do it. Idiot put his family at risk, not my concern.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Isn't it.

Think I posted same earlier.

Got lost in the froth.
		
Click to expand...

Think your right about them but they are in opposition and didn’t make the rules like Cummings.
Then disregard your own work.


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Sorry SILH but that post is absolute tripe imo. Boris was right to point out that the scientists shouldn't be directly asked to answer political questions. Boris isn't, by the looks of it, going to sack Cummings so why answer the same question time after time? How does Cummings have "something on our PM" , I* suspect its because Cummings us considered vital to the future plans, especially Brexit *and thereby lies the point* -* you remainers are keen to see him go, so to weaken the Brexit and hope that we then look to ask for the extension - no chance mate!
		
Click to expand...

So to paraphrase, are you saying that Cummings is untouchable as Boris is an incompetent popularist and the rest of the cabinet are clueless charlatans, who left to their own devices will probably screw Brexit up.  Which is not great as basically the only reason the vast majority of them are there in the first place is the fact they claimed to be able to get Brexit done?


----------



## rulefan (May 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So why can’t the Police say he has or hasn’t.
		
Click to expand...

That is down to a magistrate or jury.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That is down to a magistrate or jury.
		
Click to expand...

You have to be charged with something before you go to court.
Or has that changed.

Plus what about all the on the spot fines were they issued by magistrates or jury’s?


----------



## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Only just seen the news .
In what way does it differ?

He has confessed on live TV.
So why can’t the Police say he has or hasn’t.
		
Click to expand...

The headline was along the lines of police say cummings guilty.

Police said possibly.

The press took the bits that suited their agenda, not the full statement. Which is much more beige.


----------



## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So to paraphrase, are you saying that Cummings is untouchable as Boris is an incompetent popularist and the rest of the cabinet are clueless charlatans, who left to their own devices will probably screw Brexit up.  Which is not great as basically the only reason the vast majority of them are there in the first place is the fact they claimed to be able to get Brexit done?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, I am saying that Cummings is the Government CHIEF advisor and will not be sacrificed just to be a notch on the belt of the biased BBC and gutter press even though I do accept the castle trip was not in keeping with the rules.  However, if Cummings should go so should the 4 Labour MP's but I see no clamour for that and its therefore obvious that it's a purely a political matter and really not anything about what he'd done.


----------



## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Time to move on, man did wrong, nothing going to happen with reporters trying to keep the story going. As to the argument, he did so I will, crack on, I know idiots that speed, drink and drive and are most probably not insured, doesn't mean I'm going to do it. Idiot put his family at risk, not my concern.
		
Click to expand...

Agree.

Doesn't suit the pedants or the corduroy jacket brigade though.

So on we go...


----------



## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That is down to a magistrate or jury.
		
Click to expand...

Surely if he was considered to have breached the rules all they would have done is to issue the standard fine , this is not, as far as I understand, a court matter


----------



## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So to paraphrase, are you saying that Cummings is untouchable as Boris is an incompetent popularist and the rest of the cabinet are clueless charlatans, who left to their own devices will probably screw Brexit up.  Which is not great as basically the only reason the vast majority of them are there in the first place is the fact they claimed to be able to get Brexit done?
		
Click to expand...

One paraphrases in order to achieve greater clarity. 

You've managed to achieve less old bean.


----------



## bluewolf (May 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			One paraphrases in order to achieve greater clarity.

You've managed to achieve less old bean.
		
Click to expand...

Far be it from me to be one of the aforementioned pedants, but that’s not why we paraphrase. Old bean 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Sorry SILH but that post is absolute tripe imo. Boris was right to point out that the scientists shouldn't be directly asked to answer political questions. Boris isn't, by the looks of it, going to sack Cummings so why answer the same question time after time? How does Cummings have "something on our PM" , I suspect its because Cummings us considered vital to the future plans, especially Brexit and thereby lies the point - you remainers are keen to see him go, so to weaken the Brexit and hope that we then look to ask for the extension - no chance mate!
		
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Nothing to do with Brexit other than I find it difficult to believe anything that Cummings says given his own admissions - and given he is the words behind Johnson that gives me problems when Johnson is shutting journalists up when they question him directly or indirectly about what Cummings did and whether it is appropriate for the rest of us.  So tripe away.  Keep asking the questions on Cummings LK, RP et al.  Fine by me.  And if Johnson wants to show himself up as an empty jacket who will shut down questioning he doesn't like then so be it.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fine by me.
		
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As is anything anti Tory, Boris and Brexit - all very boring but let's face it you were able to post forever on yardage devices so these subjects should see you through to retirement 👍👍


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Nope, I am saying that Cummings is the Government CHIEF advisor and will not be sacrificed just to be a notch on the belt of the biased BBC and *gutter press *even though I do accept the castle trip was not in keeping with the rules.  However, if Cummings should go so should the 4 Labour MP's but I see no clamour for that and its therefore obvious that it's a purely a political matter and really not anything about what he'd done.
		
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So even though it is universally acknowledged he did something that was at the very least against the spirit of the guidance, and no body believes the Barnard Castle eye test story so that is a lie, the fact that the BBC who were putting Darren Grimes on prime time radio yesterday and Daily Mail (actually I'll give you that one, fair point about the gutter press) want him to go means he shouldn't? 

To be honest what razzes most people off is the lack of contrition, the lack of him looking vaguely sorry, the attempt by the government to say it was lawful, the fact that it is patently obvious that a message has come down that he can not apologize. And if the Labour MPs knowingly travelled somewhere when they knew a person travelling with them had Covid and then were not sorry then I agree, they should go as well.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Isn't it also interesting that the 4 Labour MP's who (apparently) broke the lockdown eg Kinnock etc, haven't been asked to resign by Starmer or the crew on here baying for Cummings departure ?
		
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huds1475 said:



			Isn't it.
Think I posted same earlier.
Got lost in the froth.
		
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Yet no one quotes the tory minister who broke the rules.

Just those nasty Labour ones.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Think your right about them but they are in opposition and didn’t make the rules like Cummings.
Then disregard your own work.
		
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Whatever you do, don’t mention Jenrick.


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## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Far be it from me to be one of the aforementioned pedants, but that’s not why we paraphrase. Old bean 😉
		
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Cambridge, amongst others, would be to differ...

"to repeat something written or spoken using different words, often in a humorous form or in a simplerand shorter form that makes the original meaning clearer"

I think Mr Khan failed on most counts.


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## Foxholer (May 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry but another* political post *with *clear Brexit undertones*...
		
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1. Have you checked the title of the thread!! 
2. Where are the 'Brexit undertones' in the actual post? You are making assumptions!


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## Foxholer (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			...I suspect its because Cummings us considered vital to the future plans, especially Brexit...
		
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I cannot see how he could be considered 'vital' to a project (selling Brexit) that is now complete and has moved to a completely different phase - implementation!


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I cannot see how he could be considered 'vital' to a project (selling Brexit) that is now complete and has moved to a completely different phase - implementation!
		
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A different phase of the one project - Brexit !


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yet no one quotes the tory minister who broke the rules.

Just those nasty Labour ones.

Click to expand...

Just even it up and sack everyone who broke the rules, maybe include EVERY  man and woman who did!


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			You can't be the CHIEF advisor to the government, break the rules the government is laying down for the rest of us and expect to keep your job.
		
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Well it's looking more like you can! 😁


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Just even it up and sack everyone who broke the rules, maybe include EVERY  man and woman who did!
		
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No Chris, never advocated that, but certainly believe all those in a Public Office or Government Position should be held to a higher standard and some form of punishment(Large fine to NHS for example) should of been levied, regardless of Party affiliation.

And just to be boring and repeat myself, I don’t include cummings in that.

Just find everytime on here cummings is discussed the tories line up the Labour idiots without ever mentioning one of their own, the one who has been on TV telling us how to behave during the lockdown. Very hypocritical to me.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yes indeed. And that's one of the reasons the government's credibility is in the toilet which, in turn, is massively damaging to our chances of successfully dealing with this mess.
		
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That's possibly a personal opinion Kaz and probably not shared right across this platform


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No Chris, never advocated that, but certainly believe all those in a Public Office or Government Position should be held to a higher standard and some form of punishment(Large fine to NHS for example) should of been levied, regardless of Party affiliation.

And just to be boring and repeat myself, I don’t include cummings in that.

Just find everytime on here cummings is discussed the tories line up the Labour idiots without ever mentioning one of their own, the one who has been on TV telling us how to behave during the lockdown. Very hypocritical to me.

Click to expand...

 Hypocritical politicians Paul , now that would be a novelty  😖


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Surely if he was considered to have breached the rules all they would have done is to issue the standard fine , this is not, as far as I understand, a court matter
		
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I think they should have said nothing as he wasn’t pulled by police.
But if they are going to say anything at least make a decision given he confessed on live TV.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think they should have said nothing as he wasn’t pulled by police.
But if they are going to say anything at least make a decision given he confessed on live TV.
		
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Haven't they said that they considered it a "minor" matter and would have only sent him back to the house had they stopped him ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Hypocritical politicians Paul , now that would be a novelty  😖
		
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And some posters on here mate.


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Whatever you do, don’t mention Jenrick.

Click to expand...

They have all proven a disregard for the rules.
But Cummings had a major part drawing them up.
But Boris has made Cummings bulletproof.
Politicians not behaving by the rules who would have thought it?


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			And some posters on here mate.

Click to expand...

Indeed !


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Haven't they said that they considered it a "minor" matter and would have only sent him back to the house had they stopped him ?
		
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In his condition ( eye sight)
That’s not doing their job.
If Cummings had told them that excuse at the time.
He had two months to come up with a better one .


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			In his condition ( eye sight)
That’s not doing their job.
If Cummings had told them that excuse at the time.
He had two months to come up with a better one .
		
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If they did or didnt do their job I doubt a £60 fine would have been an issue to Cummings, and let's face it, he would have said that he had paid the price and that's that end of matter.


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## SocketRocket (May 28, 2020)

Will anyone ever change their opinion on this matter?


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			If they did or didnt do their job I doubt a £60 fine would have been an issue to Cummings, and let's face it, he would have said that he had paid the price and that's that end of matter.
		
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That might have been the best outcome .
He would at least been treated like anyone else fined for a breach of the lockdown.
But he wasn’t caught at the time.
Especially the ones fined for driving.
But as it is even though he admitted it Live on tv,Boris has said everything he did was legal.
By shutting down the press the way he did today will make them worse imo.


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Will anyone ever change their opinion on this matter?
		
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I don’t think so.


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## bluewolf (May 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Cambridge, amongst others, would be to differ...

"to repeat something written or spoken using different words, often in a humorous form or in a simplerand shorter form that makes the original meaning clearer"

I think Mr Khan failed on most counts.
		
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My understanding of the use of “paraphrase” is that it demonstrates understanding. It doesn’t achieve anything. I’m happy to be corrected though as I don’t have a reference to back it up 😉😂


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I don’t think so.
		
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Yet to hear any reason to suggest why I should. You can put lipstick on a pig.................


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## huds1475 (May 28, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			My understanding of the use of “paraphrase” is that it demonstrates understanding. It doesn’t achieve anything. I’m happy to be corrected though as I don’t have a reference to back it up 😉😂
		
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You need to install Google.

Can make you appear ded clever 👍


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## IainP (May 28, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			4 different approaches within UK, not just 2.
With *the worst death rate per million in the whole world *and the 2nd worst total deaths in the whole world, perhaps looking at different approaches to No.10s is not such a bad thing?
Lives could depend on it.
		
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Am curious to know where you've pulled that from.
Not https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2020)

IainP said:



			Am curious to know where you've pulled that from.
Not https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Click to expand...

Piers Morgan, the knowledge on all things Covid


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## GB72 (May 28, 2020)

It was frustrating for me today as there were some simple questions I wanted asked that were just not raised. Biggest question for me was why announce meetings of 6 people in gardens just before a scorching hot weekend. Either start it up now or leave the announcement until Monday. Nobody is going to wait until next week and almost impossible to try and fine for a breach of a restriction ending in 72 hours


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## ColchesterFC (May 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



*So even though it is universally acknowledged he did something that was at the very least against the spirit of the guidance*, and no body believes the Barnard Castle eye test story so that is a lie, the fact that the BBC who were putting Darren Grimes on prime time radio yesterday and Daily Mail (actually I'll give you that one, fair point about the gutter press) want him to go means he shouldn't?

To be honest what razzes most people off is the lack of contrition, the lack of him looking vaguely sorry, the attempt by the government to say it was lawful, the fact that it is patently obvious that a message has come down that he can not apologize. And if the Labour MPs knowingly travelled somewhere when they knew a person travelling with them had Covid and then were not sorry then I agree, they should go as well.
		
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Nope he did something that broke the actual guidelines. The fact he went home from work to see his wife who had symptoms of the virus and then later that day returned to work rather than isolating for 14 days (whether that was in London or in Durham) is a clear breach of the guidelines. What came after that is open to debate but that is a clear and absolute breach of the guidelines.


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## ColchesterFC (May 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yet to hear any reason to suggest why I should. *You can put lipstick on a pig...........*......
		
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I didn't realise you'd met my ex wife.


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## rulefan (May 28, 2020)

No. With the current majority it will make no difference.


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## larmen (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So the virtual parliament is to end and only MPs present in the House of Commons will be able to participate in debates. Currently that's limited to 50 at a time. It's not safe to vote in the lobbies so no voting will take place.

Anyone got a problem with that?
		
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I would cut down parliament to 50 and save the expenses on all the others. Work it out proportionally and give all the others the boot. Then redraw the lines for the next election.
So much party lines politics going on, we don’t need MPs anymore.


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yet to hear any reason to suggest why I should. You can put lipstick on a pig.................
		
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Any particular shade?


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## SocketRocket (May 28, 2020)




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## Deleted member 18588 (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So the virtual parliament is to end and only MPs present in the House of Commons will be able to participate in debates. Currently that's limited to 50 at a time. It's not safe to vote in the lobbies so no voting will take place.

Anyone got a problem with that?
		
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Yes I have a problem with it.

How can the democratic principle be upheld if only approx 8% of MP's can be present. 

I don't care how big their majority may be this smacks of contempt for the electorate.


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So the virtual parliament is to end and only MPs present in the House of Commons will be able to participate in debates. Currently that's limited to 50 at a time. It's not safe to vote in the lobbies so no voting will take place.

Anyone got a problem with that?
		
Click to expand...

While I think some old customs are nice.
Parliament needs to get into the modern world.
If this is the start of a change it MIGHT be a good thing.
But knowing politicians they will use it to their advantage.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So the virtual parliament is to end and only MPs present in the House of Commons will be able to participate in debates. Currently that's limited to 50 at a time. It's not safe to vote in the lobbies so no voting will take place.

Anyone got a problem with that?
		
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Are you saying voting is suspended?  Or that bills/laws etc will be passed without a vote?


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## MegaSteve (May 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Will anyone ever change their opinion on this matter?
		
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At first I thought hanging would be sufficient... Now I've moved on to feeling nothing less than hanging, drawing and quartering will do...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just seeing warning signs. Hopefully they will work something out but it is a worry.

The speaker says "it is for the Government to decide what proposal for voting it wishes to put forward"

Not great, though, that they have allowed the remote working to end without putting an alternative mechanism in place.
		
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Doesn’t seem ok, and I’d hope they don’t rush it through without the correct checks and balances in place.


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## clubchamp98 (May 28, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's the exact opposite of that. The remote access should have been a positive change that was made permanent. Now it looks like we're not going to have a functioning democracy at all.
		
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While Boris has a big majority it’s not that much of a problem he can get most things through Parliament anyway.
He proved today he will do what he likes.
Hopefully it won’t last for years!


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## Blue in Munich (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Surely if he was considered to have breached the rules all they would have done is to issue the standard fine , this is not, as far as I understand, a court matter
		
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Unless it has changed drastically, he would not have been issued a fine, as police cannot dissue a fine.  He would have been issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice, which carries a standard financial penalty.  If the recipient of the FPN accepts their guilt, they can discharge their liability to prosecution by paying the penalty.  Alternatively if they do not accept their guilt, or wish to discuss some aspect of the case with the court they can request a court hearing & the matter will go to trial in front of a magistrate or magistrates, who will decide the guilt of innocence of the accused.

It should be noted that the FPN can only be issued for breaches of the law, not breaches of the guidance, and these are not necessarily the same thing.


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## chrisd (May 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Unless it has changed drastically, he would not have been issued a fine, as police cannot dissue a fine.  He would have been issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice, which carries a standard financial penalty.  If the recipient of the FPN accepts their guilt, they can discharge their liability to prosecution by paying the penalty.  Alternatively if they do not accept their guilt, or wish to discuss some aspect of the case with the court they can request a court hearing & the matter will go to trial in front of a magistrate or magistrates, who will decide the guilt of innocence of the accused.

It should be noted that the FPN can only be issued for breaches of the law, not breaches of the guidance, and these are not necessarily the same thing.  

Click to expand...

That's exactly  what I meant to say 🤣🤣


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## Pathetic Shark (May 29, 2020)

The civil liberties "individual" who has just stated on the news that a 14-day quarantine could be "'unimaginably disruptive to people's lives".

So could you or one or your elderly relatives dying of Covid-19.


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## patricks148 (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 30912

Click to expand...

if you are happy to use  and manipulate the media to your ends when its suites, how can you complain when it bites you on the arse, it is what it is


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			the matter will go to trial in front of a magistrate or magistrates, who will decide the guilt of innocence of the accused.
		
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Which is of course what I said.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So the virtual parliament is to end and only MPs present in the House of Commons will be able to participate in debates. Currently that's limited to 50 at a time. It's not safe to vote in the lobbies so no voting will take place.

Anyone got a problem with that?
		
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Yes, absolutely. We live in a democracy, votes are essential to that. This is 2020, can it be that hard to arrange an online voting system for MPs? 

The building,  Westminster, the systems, the terminology, everything about parliament is archaic and needs bringing into the modern era.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 29, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Any particular shade?
		
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Rose Blush , pigs are quite flirty on the lipstick front 💋👄🐷


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## DanFST (May 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes, absolutely. We live in a democracy, votes are essential to that. This is 2020, can it be that hard to arrange an online voting system for MPs?

The building,  Westminster, the systems, the terminology, everything about parliament is archaic and needs bringing into the modern era.
		
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Everyone wants reform until they get to the position where they can initiate reform, then it no longer suits them. 


Politics is broken at it's core at all levels in the UK. Don't even get me started on the building, costing us millions because they need access to a bar.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2020)

QT worked well last night with a virtual audience. Bruce was excellent [for a change]
How incompetent do you have to be to be a government minister...…..Helen Whatley gave a masterclass.
Scotland looks like it is not going to sweep the Cummings fiasco under the carpet anytime soon.
Massie seems to have defected to the SNP.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			My understanding of the use of “paraphrase” is that it demonstrates understanding. It doesn’t achieve anything. I’m happy to be corrected though as I don’t have a reference to back it up 😉😂[/QUOTE

My *experience *of paraphrase is that it is the mother of all cock ups.
As in "send three and four pence....etc"😁😁
		
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## huds1475 (May 29, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The civil liberties "individual" who has just stated on the news that a 14-day quarantine could be "'unimaginably disruptive to people's lives".

So could you or one or your elderly relatives dying of Covid-19.
		
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Perplexes me why they give airtime to these muppets.

Hopefully we'll have a vaccine soon so we can enjoy the anti-vaxxers' inane ramblings too.


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			A different phase of the one project - Brexit !
		
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My view is that while his talents may have been 'needed'/valuable in the 'selling Brexit' phase, they are not the sort of talents that are needed for the negotiation or implementation phases. He seems much more a 'blue sky thinking' sort of advisor rather than a 'detail' one that is necessary for the next phases of Brexit. I wouldn't imagine he'd be particularly interested in those phases though likely _would_ be interested in the 'post Brexit relationships' UK has with rest of the World. This  may or may not include the EU as a group - as part of 'The Deal', but I'd think not, as he's a planner, not a negotiator imo.


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## larmen (May 29, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Perplexes me why they give airtime to these muppets.

Hopefully we'll have a vaccine soon so we can enjoy the anti-vaxxers' inane ramblings too.
		
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This is when you have people wanting balanced views rather than objective views. Coming soon you have to listen to pro pedophiles on crime watch. ;-(


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Anyway - I guess that Cummings will be gone soon after 1st Jan 2021 - with him hanging on in there until then to make sure that there is no backsliding from Johnson or his buddies on the departure date...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes, absolutely. We live in a democracy, votes are essential to that. This is 2020, can it be that hard to arrange an online voting system for MPs?

The building,  Westminster, the systems, the terminology, *everything about parliament is archaic and needs bringing into the modern era*.
		
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You need to remember just who is the Leader of the House.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You need to remember just who is the Leader of the House.
		
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Ha ha, fair point. Sadly, no one is really trying to modernise it, nor have they in the past. The building is falling down and they will have to move out shortly. That would be the ideal time to turn the Palace of Westminster into a pay to visit tourist attraction, build a new, fit for purpose, modern parliament. It doesn't need to be an architectural money pit 10 years in the building but it does need to house all MP's, staff and have a modern chamber with electronic voting.


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## larmen (May 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha, fair point. Sadly, no one is really trying to modernise it, nor have they in the past
		
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I think you have to have a party campaigning with a reform like this and getting traction. See the Liberal Democrats with single preferential vote or ukip with the withdrawal from the European Union. This can then force a government into a referendum and possibly into change.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha, fair point. Sadly, no one is really trying to modernise it, nor have they in the past. The building is falling down and they will have to move out shortly. That would be the ideal time to turn the Palace of Westminster into a pay to visit tourist attraction, build a new, fit for purpose, modern parliament. It doesn't need to be an architectural money pit 10 years in the building but it does need to house all MP's, staff and have a modern chamber with electronic voting.
		
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That's right. A start would be changing from the facing benches to a layout more like the EU Parliament (must go and lay down after saying that)


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## larmen (May 29, 2020)

Well, Sir Norman Foster has some experience in modernising old buildings for government purpose

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_building

What would have been ideal, but it is too late now, Battersea Power Station.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Everyone wants reform until they get to the position where they can initiate reform, then it no longer suits them.


Politics is broken at it's core at all levels in the UK. Don't even get me started on the building, costing us millions because they need access to a bar.
		
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I do agree with you.  I would add that the expectations of politics have been transformed through the manipulation of perception by Social media, Press media and Television media. It has become increasingly difficult to take a neutral or detached view, we are bombarded with conflicting information and it's easy for us to filter it through our traditional beliefs and prejudice.


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## clubchamp98 (May 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Everyone wants reform until they get to the position where they can initiate reform, then it no longer suits them.


Politics is broken at it's core at all levels in the UK. Don't even get me started on the building, costing us millions because they need access to a bar.
		
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Isn’t the bar subsidised as well ?
So they pay less than us .


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## Lord Tyrion (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's right. A start would be changing from the facing benches to a layout more like the EU Parliament (must go and lay down after saying that)
		
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Totally agree on this. It would reduce the childish nature of debates, the jeering, the animosity. If split up, I would have each seat linked to a constituency, it would reduce the tribal element which can only be good.


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## huds1475 (May 29, 2020)

larmen said:



			This is when you have people wanting balanced views rather than objective views. Coming soon you have to listen to pro pedophiles on crime watch. ;-(
		
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Balance is a good thing.

Positioning the slider is the tricky part.

Always.

I do love the personal liberty vs death argument  though .


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally agree on this. It would reduce the childish nature of debates, the jeering, the animosity. If split up, I would have each seat linked to a constituency, it would reduce the tribal element which can only be good.
		
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Holyrood is a wonderful example of how architecture/design can change actions.


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## clubchamp98 (May 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally agree on this. It would reduce the childish nature of debates, the jeering, the animosity. If split up, I would have each seat linked to a constituency, it would reduce the tribal element which can only be good.
		
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Yes and put it in the middle of the country somewhere.
They could use the old one for an English Parliament then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Holyrood is a wonderful example of how architecture/design can change actions.
		
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...and going back to the 15th Century when the Three Estates comprised the Scottish parliament and all sat in the one 'house'.   No Lords and Commons for a Scottish Parliament - and so it is today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just seeing warning signs. Hopefully they will work something out but it is a worry.

The speaker says "it is for the Government to decide what proposal for voting it wishes to put forward"

Not great, though, that they have allowed the remote working to end without putting an alternative mechanism in place.
		
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It's all for the Empty Jacket that is our PM - so that with his adoring audience sitting behind him in the stalls he can stand on his stage - bluster and wave his arms about acting the part he thinks is a reasonable substitute for proper and informed leadership.  Well plenty have bought into the act and I guess we are stuck with it - at least until Cummings goes once he's seen the transition period through.


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## IanM (May 29, 2020)

Blimey, you want to see the "Deputy Head of a failing Primary School" we have running Cardiff Council..... embarrassing.  Still thinks golf is more dangerous than queuing to buy flower pots.   Makes John Major look like Rambo!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Blimey #2 - Brits Banned from Greece when it reopens for holidaymakers on June 15.  As C-19 is still too prevalent in the UK we are not on the list of 29 allowed. Mind you France, Spain, RoI and Italy aren't on the list either.  We are in good company...


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			At first I thought hanging would be sufficient... Now I've moved on to feeling nothing less than hanging, drawing and quartering will do...
		
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Where does the head on a spike go


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Blimey #2 - Brits Banned from Greece when it reopens for holidaymakers on June 15.  As C-19 is still too prevalent in the UK we are not on the list of 29 allowed. Mind you France, Spain, RoI and Italy aren't on the list either.  We are in good company...
		
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Why the Blimey, very sensible from the Greek government, fair chance it will be lifted by August.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			At first I thought hanging would be sufficient... Now I've moved on to feeling nothing less than hanging, drawing and quartering will do...
		
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Cant understand why anyone would be up to knocking out a watercolour after the noose, especially knowing what's happening next.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

I thought the outlined plan for Furlough were very reasonable.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Blimey #2 - Brits Banned from Greece when it reopens for holidaymakers on June 15.  As C-19 is still too prevalent in the UK we are not on the list of 29 allowed. Mind you France, Spain, RoI and Italy aren't on the list either.  We are in good company...
		
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Is it worth the hassle going out there and then having to self quarantine on return


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Is it worth the hassle going out there and then having to self quarantine on return
		
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Was going to be going to Greece in two weeks time,  all cancelled.  And supposed to be going to Valencia in October - not fancying it now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why the Blimey, very sensible from the Greek government, fair chance it will be lifted by August.
		
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Just the whole idea of Brits being banned form travelling to a country like Greece.  Of course we know why and that's just how it is.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why the Blimey, very sensible from the Greek government, fair chance it will be lifted by August.
		
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I agree. I wouldn't be surprised to see other nations follow suit. I can see a lot of families looking for a cheap last minute deal especially with the school summer holidays only five weeks away. 

I don't know the answer to this hence the question, but for argument sake if a family went abroad (to wherever accepts UK travellers), and they are now expected to quarantine/self isolate for 14 days on return, will this get monitored. If not, what stops them then simply going out and about in the local community?


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## bluewolf (May 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Has been the bright spot in the government's response but as it progresses I think they should consider different phasing for different sectors. Bars and restaurants, for example, will need help for longer than most.
		
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Far be it from me to pour a little drizzle on the parade. 
However, as good as the furlough scheme looks now (and I’m a fan of it, but I’m also of the mind that he couldn’t really have done much different), it won’t be until we learn how we’re going to pay for it that we’ll know how worthwhile it was....


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## AmandaJR (May 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Far be it from me to pour a little drizzle on the parade.
However, as good as the furlough scheme looks now (and I’m a fan of it, but I’m also of the mind that he couldn’t really have done much different), it won’t be until we learn how we’re going to pay for it that we’ll know how worthwhile it was....
		
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I tend to think it will be judged on success or otherwise depending on how many jobs it saves.

At some time or another the books are going to have to be balanced...the cuts will be deep.


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## bluewolf (May 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I tend to think it will be judged on success or otherwise depending on how many jobs it saves.

At some time or another the books are going to have to be balanced...the cuts will be deep.
		
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Agreed, but the cuts could cause as many, if not more, issues than the scheme has prevented. 
Hopefully, no one will use the opportunity to impose ideological cuts. I have concerns though.


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Agreed, but the cuts could cause as many, if not more, issues than the scheme has prevented.
Hopefully, no one will use the opportunity to impose ideological cuts. I have concerns though.
		
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I'm hoping that rather than cuts they will impose increases in tax rates. Bring in a temporary 50% tax bracket for all earnings over £150k and a 60/70% tax bracket for all earnings over £300k (for example). Stick 1% on corporation tax as a temporary measure and then make sure that the big companies actually pay their fair share. In my experience cuts affect those on lower incomes far more and whatever this virus costs us as a country needs to be paid for by those that can most afford it (and I include myself in that).


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## rulefan (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought the outlined plan for Furlough were very reasonable.
		
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But still financial issues for many self employed.


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## MegaSteve (May 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Where does the head on a spike go
		
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I'd place it in Brussels as a fair warning to all unelected unaccountable bureaucrats 😉😜...


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## bluewolf (May 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm hoping that rather than cuts they will impose increases in tax rates. Bring in a temporary 50% tax bracket for all earnings over £150k and a 60/70% tax bracket for all earnings over £300k (for example). Stick 1% on corporation tax as a temporary measure and then make sure that the big companies actually pay their fair share. In my experience cuts affect those on lower incomes far more and whatever this virus costs us as a country needs to be paid for by those that can most afford it (and I include myself in that).
		
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I’ll bet you a crisp fiver that the cuts look absolutely nothing like that...

I’m willing to pay more tax if it means the burden doesn’t fall harshly on those that can least afford it. But history tells us that the onus will most likely be placed on those that can least afford it...

I’m happy to be proven wrong though...


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’ll bet you a crisp fiver that the cuts look absolutely nothing like that...

I’m willing to pay more tax if it means the burden doesn’t fall harshly on those that can least afford it. But history tells us that the onus will most likely be placed on those that can least afford it...

I’m happy to be proven wrong though...
		
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And there's absolutely no way that I would take that bet. 

I know that I am in a fortunate position where what has happened over the last few months hasn't actually affected me or my family in any significant financial way. Coming out of this situation is going to require sacrifices in a lot of areas and like yourself if that means my tax bill goes up for a few years then I'm happy to bite that bullet, even as a (small c) conservative.

I also fear that repaying the debt that has been accrued (correctly IMO, so I'm not slating the government for that) is going to impact those that can least afford it a lot more rather than those of us, such as me and you, that can afford it. 

And equally I would love to see the government put the burden of repayment onto those of us that can afford it but also fear that this won't be the case.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2020)

In a Mori poll 86% thought the Scottish Government's Covid messaging was very clear.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In a Mori poll 86% thought the Scottish Government's Covid messaging was very clear.

Click to expand...

Clear as Mud.


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In a Mori poll 86% thought the Scottish Government's Covid messaging was very clear.

Click to expand...

Is that the stay at home but go out and meet people one.


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## SaintHacker (May 30, 2020)

Been a couple of days since we've seen Laura Kussenberg or Robert Peston at the press conferences (thankfully), has some from 'higher up' finally had a word?


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Been a couple of days since we've seen Laura Kussenberg or Robert Peston at the press conferences (thankfully), has some from 'higher up' finally had a word?
		
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Laura took a bit of time off according to her tweeter account


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## drdel (May 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Been a couple of days since we've seen Laura Kussenberg or Robert Peston at the press conferences (thankfully), has some from 'higher up' finally had a word?
		
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That would be sensible, however since its the BBC and ITV where the egos reign, I suspect not a blink of an eye took place.


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## Hacker Khan (May 30, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Some good questions today I thought. Especially the one about if we estimate 8000 new infections a day even though we're locked down etc who exactly is getting infected? Think we need a handle on that to target measures effectively. Didn't get a proper answer, unfortunately.
		
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I liked the one that gave the chance to Van-Tam to say that the guidance applies to everyone, government advisors are not excluded.  And he didn't bottle it. May be I'm reading too much into what he said but it seemed clear to me he was very concerned about us screwing these new freedoms up, and he was concerned about how we could row back on the easing of lockdown once the genie was out of the bottle.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I liked the one that gave the chance to Van-Tam to say that the guidance applies to everyone, government advisors are not excluded.  And he didn't bottle it. May be I'm reading too much into what he said but it seemed clear to me he was very concerned about us screwing these new freedoms up, and he was concerned about how we could row back on the easing of lockdown once the genie was out of the bottle.
		
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I thought he reiterated the point a couple of times and there seemed to be a definite feeling that he wasn't 100% comfortable of how far we've relaxed


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## harpo_72 (May 30, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Some good questions today I thought. Especially the one about if we estimate 8000 new infections a day even though we're locked down etc who exactly is getting infected? Think we need a handle on that to target measures effectively. Didn't get a proper answer, unfortunately.
		
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Gosh that’s crap, the unlocked down Sweden numbers are 700 infections total deaths are around  4200
They have not been treating the elderly with oxygen either which has caused some controversy. The care homes have taken a battering. However everything else has been okay.
I had a walk around Gothenburg today, early around 10:30 am it was quiet, places just opening up but people were shopping and in bars having breakfasts ..


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Gosh that’s crap, the unlocked down Sweden numbers are 700 infections total deaths are around  4200
They have not been treating the elderly with oxygen either which has caused some controversy. The care homes have taken a battering. However everything else has been okay.
I had a walk around Gothenburg today, early around 10:30 am it was quiet, places just opening up but people were shopping and in bars having breakfasts ..
		
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And the difference between Sweden and the UK is!


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## Swinglowandslow (May 30, 2020)

For what I think is the first time that the government advice ( easing of lockdown ) appears to be at some odds with the ( some stated)unanimous scientific recommendations, there is quiet here from those who have been not slow to criticise this government's handling of the pandemic.🤔
Surely, you can't be in agreement with the latest easing?
What do you reckon?
For clarity, I think things are being moved too quickly.


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## DanFST (May 31, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			For what I think is the first time that the government advice ( easing of lockdown ) appears to be at some odds with the ( some stated)unanimous scientific recommendations, there is quiet here from those who have been not slow to criticise this government's handling of the pandemic
		
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A Scottish hero said you up to 8 people can meet, so it's fine.

The science says within a week you can't play a 2 ball, but you can meet up in a large group. Stay at home, but go out. (ideally within 5 miles) - not sure what that means if it's further.  

Thank lord they diverted from the PM's message once it became "too confusing".


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## pauljames87 (May 31, 2020)

Was chatting to my colleague today, he was saying was lovely to see his mum yest they had a BBQ in his garden social distance etc. Was very happy to see her..kids loved it etc.

I said you know it's Monday it ends right? He went oh. Didn't realise thought was Friday because he announced it thursday.

Your average person who doesn't fully follow this event will rely on snippets and others to tell. He will have been told by the Mrs who will have heard from a friend.

The messages from top need to be clearer. Black and white . No grey


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## harpo_72 (May 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And the difference between Sweden and the UK is!
		
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Not locked down, majority of business has continued. Restaurant table covers are reduced, shops have ticketing systems and distances measured. But no One is confined, they are responsible for their and others well being. The senior managers make the decisions about the offices, mine requires special permission for attendance. However the business goes on it still happens. Some time it’s hard but you take the bull by the horns and try and resolve it. 
The Swedes are not popular at the moment with both Danish and Norwegians saying no visits but then they come over to Sweden. Personally I don’t think we should say one person only cannot come in .. each country should stop or control travel. Irrespective of where the person has come from.. they could be transporting the virus or they could be exposed to the virus.


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## road2ruin (May 31, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Was chatting to my colleague today, he was saying was lovely to see his mum yest they had a BBQ in his garden social distance etc. Was very happy to see her..kids loved it etc.

I said you know it's Monday it ends right? He went oh. Didn't realise thought was Friday because he announced it thursday.

Your average person who doesn't fully follow this event will rely on snippets and others to tell. He will have been told by the Mrs who will have heard from a friend.

The messages from top need to be clearer. Black and white . No grey
		
Click to expand...

I’m going for a drink today with friends, there will be 5 of us in their garden which is very big so absolutely no issues with social distancing etc.

Is it breaking the rules? Yes, absolutely however with all this talk of being ‘alert’ and using common sense I think it’s actually more sensible than those rules that have been laid out for us. Our local parks/green spaces are full, it’s very difficult to move around those areas whilst maintaining 1m distance, let alone 2m. I can go to the friends garden, no worry about having to move out the way for other people, a far lower chance of awkward encounters.


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## rudebhoy (May 31, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I’m going for a drink today with friends, t*here will be 5 of us in their garden which is very big so absolutely no issues with social distancing etc.*

Is it breaking the rules? Yes, absolutely however with all this talk of being ‘alert’ and using common sense I think it’s actually more sensible than those rules that have been laid out for us. Our local parks/green spaces are full, it’s very difficult to move around those areas whilst maintaining 1m distance, let alone 2m. I can go to the friends garden, no worry about having to move out the way for other people, a far lower chance of awkward encounters.
		
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That's fine until people have had a few drinks, then social distancing goes out the window. Saw this in our street on VE Day. What started off as civilised and following the rules mid afternoon had turned into a drunken rabble by 9pm.


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## pauljames87 (May 31, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I’m going for a drink today with friends, there will be 5 of us in their garden which is very big so absolutely no issues with social distancing etc.

Is it breaking the rules? Yes, absolutely however with all this talk of being ‘alert’ and using common sense I think it’s actually more sensible than those rules that have been laid out for us. Our local parks/green spaces are full, it’s very difficult to move around those areas whilst maintaining 1m distance, let alone 2m. I can go to the friends garden, no worry about having to move out the way for other people, a far lower chance of awkward encounters.
		
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Turns out we have been breaking the rules for afornight . The mrs has been having her mum in the garden, whilst im out or inside. She said its safer than her going to the park (makes sense) boris clearly said that from Monday you can now meet in gardens where was parks before 

I was like whoops ..didn't get that right 

I know a few people who are meeting family this weekend because they haven't seen their parents in 10 weeks but feel the weekend is safer before they go back to work Monday with the kids and could bring something back. Understand the logic 

I'm glad I'm working this weekend. Would be hard not to break


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## road2ruin (May 31, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's fine until people have had a few drinks, then social distancing goes out the window. Saw this in our street on VE Day. What started off as civilised and following the rules mid afternoon had turned into a drunken rabble by 9pm.
		
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I guess that depends on the individual groups in question. We’re unlikely to be drinking into the evening, it’ll be a nice afternoon in the sun in a controlled environment rather than taking my chances in a local park etc with hundreds of others. 

We also have children going back to school in the next week so I guess our chances of infection are going to be increased anyway.


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## spongebob59 (May 31, 2020)

A friend of mine says his club have started doing takeaway beer in 1 pint plastic glasses , which I'm sure is not within the rules


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2020)

DanFST said:



			A Scottish hero said you up to 8 people can meet, so it's fine.

The science says within a week you can't play a 2 ball, but you can meet up in a large group. Stay at home, but go out. (ideally within 5 miles) - not sure what that means if it's further. 

Thank lord they diverted from the PM's message once it became "too confusing".
		
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In Scotland is up to eight people from two households, meeting outdoors, standard lockdown procedures.
In England I believe it is up to 6 people from up to 6 different households.
Big difference.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			A friend of mine says his club have started doing takeaway beer in 1 pint plastic glasses , which I'm sure is not within the rules 

Click to expand...

Many clubs are doing the same - it’s acceptable within the rules 

This is The Addington


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			A friend of mine says his club have started doing takeaway beer in 1 pint plastic glasses , which I'm sure is not within the rules 

Click to expand...

It is, provided the glass is sealed/ enclosed......no different to buying bottled beer in a supermarket.


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## pauljames87 (May 31, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			A friend of mine says his club have started doing takeaway beer in 1 pint plastic glasses , which I'm sure is not within the rules 

Click to expand...

Considering pubs are offering take away drinks and have for a while it's fine.

Our club is looking into doing a little outside bar to sell drinks to the golfers in sealed cups etc


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Not locked down, majority of business has continued. Restaurant table covers are reduced, shops have ticketing systems and distances measured. But no One is confined, they are responsible for their and others well being. The senior managers make the decisions about the offices, mine requires special permission for attendance. However the business goes on it still happens. Some time it’s hard but you take the bull by the horns and try and resolve it.
The Swedes are not popular at the moment with both Danish and Norwegians saying no visits but then they come over to Sweden. Personally I don’t think we should say one person only cannot come in .. each country should stop or control travel. Irrespective of where the person has come from.. they could be transporting the virus or they could be exposed to the virus.
		
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Thanks for the  info.  The other big difference is population density (maybe in more than one way 😉)


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## drdel (May 31, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			A friend of mine says his club have started doing takeaway beer in 1 pint plastic glasses , which I'm sure is not within the rules 

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Especially as we're asked to change in the car park and DRIVE home!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Many clubs are doing the same - it’s acceptable within the rules

This is The Addington
View attachment 30939

Click to expand...

Beer, golf and hot weather is never a good combination.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2020)

For those wishing the Cummings fiasco will just disappear, bad news.
Marr putting Rabb on the spot by asking which parts of the 'World beating' TTT can the public ignore by using their own best judgement.


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## IanM (May 31, 2020)

Welsh in rebellion now.. 

Next door neighbour and son went to Bristol yesterday to play tennis....and 4 of them in our village have pay and play golf at Woodlands in Bristol booked for tomorrow. 

Drakeford said no tennis and yes to tennis in 2 speeches 3 hours apart on Friday   Welsh LTA are back in with him later....  confused and miffed 

Just as well that Welsh Labour are giving kids the vote  or Drakeford and his weirdos would be out.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 31, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For those wishing the Cummings fiasco will just disappear, bad news.
Marr putting Rabb on the spot by asking which parts of the 'World beating' TTT can the public ignore by using their own best judgement.
		
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I watched it and quite frankly Marr just, once again,  looked what he is.
Washed up!

No originality and no tenacity to his questions, merely  a repeat of those we heard  earlier in the week when this was at the forefront of the public's attention. 

After the revelations about some of his accusers probably now best to move on.

Nobody's likely to now change their opinion.


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## spongebob59 (May 31, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering pubs are offering take away drinks and have for a while it's fine.

Our club is looking into doing a little outside bar to sell drinks to the golfers in sealed cups etc
		
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I don't think much of the contents will get taken away.


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## spongebob59 (May 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			Especially as we're asked to change in the car park and DRIVE home!
		
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Snap.


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## larmen (May 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			Especially as we're asked to change in the car park and DRIVE home!
		
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Nothing tests your eyesight better that driving after a couple of pints.


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## Blue in Munich (May 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Many clubs are doing the same - it’s acceptable within the rules

This is The Addington
View attachment 30939

Click to expand...

Complete with the obligatory moron standing in just the right position to eat his burger to ensure that no-one else can get to the counter whilst maintaining 2m social distancing.


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## IanM (May 31, 2020)

He gets everywhere!


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## Red scorpion (May 31, 2020)

Ask yourself this,how many beer delivery lorries have you seen since march.


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## IanM (May 31, 2020)

Red scorpion said:



			Ask yourself this,how many beer delivery lorries have you seen since march.
		
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Several!😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

I am really not sure that UK being somewhere in the transition between levels 4 and 3 of the government's risk assessment is the time to initiate relaxations that we were sold as happening when we are at Level 3.  If the levels were based upon 'the science' then the government cannot be following 'the science' as it has chosen to relax in advance of level 3 being achieved.  Yes I know it is not full relaxation - but that was not what the Levels said and the message the government told us.

And my worry is compounded by the fact that there were nearly 2,000 new cases reported yesterday. Given that one key factor driving relaxation and for Risk Level 3 was readiness of Contact Tracing to deal with all new infections, how the heck do the Contact Tracers deal with 2,000 new infections a day?  OK - if the number of new infections was perhaps down in the few hundreds - but it is still in the thousands.  Despite however many contact tracers the government advised it has employed from what I hear the whole programme is simply not ready to go.

Surely to goodness we run the contact tracing for at least at couple or three weeks to make sure it is 'fit for purpose' and THEN the government can start relaxing lockdown.

So why has this happened now?  Many Public Health professionals are saying it's too soon  So why?

I am afraid that I cannot but ask whether or not it could in any way be linked to the self-proclaimed Important C....? Surely Johnson and the Quad would not be quite so politically self-serving - but I am not so sure, as I really don't know why we are not waiting a few more weeks until we are *at *Level 3 and Contact Tracing is proven to be working well.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am really not sure that UK being somewhere in the transition between levels 4 and 3 of the government's risk assessment is the time to initiate relaxations that we were sold as happening when we are at Level 3.  If the levels were based upon 'the science' then the government cannot be following 'the science' as it has chosen to relax in advance of level 3 being achieved.  Yes I know it is not full relaxation - but that was not what the Levels said and the message the government told us.

And my worry is compounded by the fact that there were nearly 2,000 new cases reported yesterday. Given that one key factor driving relaxation and for Risk Level 3 was readiness of Contact Tracing to deal with all new infections, how the heck do the Contact Tracers deal with 2,000 new infections a day?  OK - if the number of new infections was perhaps down in the few hundreds - but it is still in the thousands.  Despite however many contact tracers the government advised it has employed from what I hear the whole programme is simply not ready to go.

Surely to goodness we run the contact tracing for at least at couple or three weeks to make sure it is 'fit for purpose' and THEN the government can start relaxing lockdown.

So why has this happened now?  Many Public Health professionals are saying it's too soon  So why?

I am afraid that I cannot but ask whether or not it could in any way be linked to the self-proclaimed Important C....? Surely Johnson and the Quad would not be quite so politically self-serving - but I am not so sure, as I really don't know why we are not waiting a few more weeks until we are *at *Level 3 and Contact Tracing is proven to be working well.
		
Click to expand...

At first I thought the government were doing well in this crisis .
But my opinion has changed big time , they seem to be doing things off the cuff.
We are not ready yet .
I never belive what politicians say anyway ,any of them.


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## Beezerk (Jun 1, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			At first I thought the government were doing well in this crisis .
But my opinion has changed big time , they seem to be doing things off the cuff.
We are not ready yet .
I never belive what politicians say anyway ,any of them.
		
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I think the government are reacting to how the public are acting, they maybe should have been a bit more authoritarian rather than playing the softly softly, please do as we say approach.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

I think that there is a part that is the government reacting to how the public are acting and a large financial element. I think that this is a basic attempt to get some parts of the economy moving and get some people off furlough so as, if needed, some of scheme can be extended for parts of the economy that cannot open. People have accepted furlough far better because most are getting 80% of their salary. Once that cannot be paid, and that time is coming, then I can see the clamor to get back to work but by then it may already be too late for a number of companies (already it probably is). 

It is a very fine line between keeping people safe at their jobs and making sure there are jobs left for people to be safe at.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I think the government are reacting to how the public are acting, they maybe should have been a bit more authoritarian rather than playing the softly softly, please do as we say approach.
		
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Lot to be said for that.  Especially when I hear a sunbather on Southend beach telling a reporter that she's 'bored' of the restrictions - BORED F*S!  It's frustrating and difficult for us all and we can get a bit fed up - but the restrictions don't 'bore' me.  I think the government has stopped talking about them 'following' the science - more talk these days of them being 'informed' by the science.  Which is all they ever were despite the assertions that there was nothing political at all about what was being decided. 

Anyway - despite Alok Sharma's prevarications this morning (on LBC) on whether the government would apply a second lockdown if things went wrong - maybe if that is required it will HAVE to be more stringent.  And that will be fun - not


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

if I was being particularly generous to the government, I could actually see the current relaxation as a clever move. People were heading out in large numbers to beauty spots, parks and beaches and it is difficult to stop. One way of mitigating the problem to is allow people to meet in gardens in smaller groups. Yes you are easing the lockdown but you are also putting in place an option where people stay within their own boundaries and in smaller, easier to trace groups. it also gives people some social contact and this alone may leave people more willing to stay at home under lockdown conditions when they have not got people round. 

As I said, probably me being over generous to those making policy but it may prove to be sensible to allow an early but more controlled relaxation of lockdown rather than watch it irrevocably crumble over the next few weeks.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			At first I thought the government were doing well in this crisis .
But my opinion has changed big time , they seem to be doing things off the cuff.
We are not ready yet .
I never belive what politicians say anyway ,any of them.
		
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They will get it in the neck whatever they do, a number were saying we should get the ecconomy moving and let the vunenable stay locked down, this policy seemed to have a fair bit of support.  Why are these people not supporting it now!


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They will get it in the neck whatever they do, a number were saying we should get the ecconomy moving and let the vunenable stay locked down, this policy seemed to have a fair bit of support.  Why are these people not supporting it now!
		
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Plus from the end of next month, companies are going to have to start paying something towards furloughed employees. If they are not sufficiently up and running by then, companies are simply be going down the redundancy route. I appreciate that it is harsh to look at decisions made now as economic ones but it has to play a part. I know a number of people who are more than happy to stay on furlough as long as necessary on 80% pay, especially now that they can meet up with friends all day and in 2 weeks time go shopping etc. You will be amazed how quick some of those attitudes will change when that £2500 a month on furlough changes to under £500 a month on income support. 

At the moment at least it still remains down to people's choice. If you do not want to go out, you do not have to. You can protect and isolate yourself as much as you like.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

I’d argue with what we know at this time that the Government have done a great job, yes, there has been some errors and yes, more errors may come out in the fullness of time, but still don’t believe anyone else would of done better.

The main area of concern for me has been communication, I believe some of the issues they brought on themselves by either poor communication, mixed messages or bad timing.

I’d of much preferred a harsher, tougher lockdown with big penalties, but they seemed to almost try and appease everyone which, imo, was wrong.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d argue with what we know at this time that the Government have done a great job, yes, there has been some errors and yes, more errors may come out in the fullness of time, but still don’t believe anyone else would of done better.

The main area of concern for me has been communication, I believe some of the issues they brought on themselves by either poor communication, mixed messages or bad timing.

I’d of much preferred a harsher, tougher lockdown with big penalties, but they seemed to almost try and appease everyone which, imo, was wrong.
		
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I tend to agree with you. I feel, rightly or wrongly, that the lines are still drawn up following Brexit and many of the opinions for and against the government are based on that, as well as the traditional left/right divide which was almost as big as it ever has been between Johnson and Corbyn (or at least as big as it has been since the Thatcher years). it is the level of venom that gets me from both sides. If I agree or disagree with something, i can put across my view without threats or malicious language. I prefer to just argue my point.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 1, 2020)

A good and sustained dose of rain and cooler weather would certainly help. People are far less likely to go to the seaside when it is 12°C and chucking it down.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 1, 2020)

Nicola taking no prisoners this morning, threatening to put the 5 mile advisory limit into law after a weekend of packed roads at Glencoe and Loch Lomond.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They will get it in the neck whatever they do, a number were saying we should get the ecconomy moving and let the vunenable stay locked down, this policy seemed to have a fair bit of support.  Why are these people not supporting it now!
		
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Their mixed messages and lack of loopholes led to the Cummings incident.
Now they have very little authority to carry on the lockdown.
But the cases of Covid are still there .
Now the public are doing what they think is ok!
If we do lockdown again I think it will have to be harsher.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I tend to agree with you. I feel, rightly or wrongly, that the lines are still drawn up following Brexit and many of the opinions for and against the government are based on that, as well as the traditional left/right divide which was almost as big as it ever has been between Johnson and Corbyn (or at least as big as it has been since the Thatcher years). it is the level of venom that gets me from both sides. If I agree or disagree with something, i can put across my view without threats or malicious language. I prefer to just argue my point.
		
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Unfortunately at times a lot on here is judged by the poster rather than the post, myself included.

I would like to believe we can all see beyond the headlines only some don’t try.

The whole scum media makes me smile, none of these people have an issue with the media when they are attacking their opposition.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 1, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Plus from the end of next month, companies are going to have to start paying something towards furloughed employees. If they are not sufficiently up and running by then, companies are simply be going down the redundancy route. I appreciate that it is harsh to look at decisions made now as economic ones but it has to play a part. I know a number of people who are more than happy to stay on furlough as long as necessary on 80% pay, especially now that they can meet up with friends all day and in 2 weeks time go shopping etc. You will be amazed how quick some of those attitudes will change when that £2500 a month on furlough changes to under £500 a month on income support.

At the moment at least it still remains down to people's choice. If you do not want to go out, you do not have to. You can protect and isolate yourself as much as you like.
		
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Yes think your correct .
It costs money to go to work , travel food etc so a lot are happy at home.
It’s not costing their employers much now.
But basic economics dictate this just can’t go on to long.
It’s a fine balanced line.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately at times a lot on here is judged by the poster rather than the post, myself included.

I would like to believe we can all see beyond the headlines only some don’t try.

The whole scum media makes me smile, none of these people have an issue with the media when they are attacking their opposition.
		
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To be fair, I was talking in more general terms than just on here but see your point. 

I think that economically, the government have done pretty well. Without that early action, things would be a hell of a lot worse than they are now. 

Testing and PPE were not so good but I am not sure whether anyone else would have done better. 

They have achieved the first aim and stopped the NHS getting swamped. 

Personality wise, they have not dealt with a few numpties as well as they could have. 

It is a mixed bag but hindsight is a wonderful thing and others may have done better, they may have done worse.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes think your correct .
It costs money to go to work , travel food etc so a lot are happy at home.
It’s not costing their employers much now.
But basic economics dictate this just can’t go on to long.
It’s a fine balanced line.
		
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It is, as I said, my concern is that there are quite a few people being vocal about how it is far too risky to go back to work when actually they are happy to admit that life on 80% salary is pretty OK as far as they are concerned, especially over summer and so the longer they can stretch this out for, the better.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 1, 2020)

If the Government imposed draconian lockdown rules on us, people would complain.
If the Government allowed freedom of movement instead, people would complain.
If they kept the schools closed, people would complain.
If they re-opened them, people would complain.

No matter what action has or will be taken, people, egged on by social media and a hysterical press, will complain and say something different should have been done.
And to prove their apparent point, some statistic from somewhere else will be used, normally totally out of context.

Welcome to the United Kingdom 2020.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			If the Government imposed draconian lockdown rules on us, people would complain.
If the Government allowed freedom of movement instead, people would complain.
If they kept the schools closed, people would complain.
If they re-opened them, people would complain.

No matter what action has or will be taken, people, egged on by social media and a hysterical press, will complain and say something different should have been done.
And to prove their apparent point, some statistic from somewhere else will be used, normally totally out of context.

Welcome to the United Kingdom 2020.
		
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Certainly my comparative point on this is going to be the 1m distance. Much of the questioning at the moment is why we are insisting on 2m social distancing when surely it should only be one. Give it 2-3 weeks and it will be reduced to allow certain parts of the hospitality industry, hairdressers and others to open in a financially viable way. I am waiting for the headlines afterwards whereby the government are risking out lives to allow pubs to open.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 1, 2020)

Piers Moron is bitching on Twitter that he cannot get a single Conservative MP to come on his show to defend the Government.
Personally I think this shows tremendous judgement by all 365 them to ignore the self-important pompous a-hole who would just shout them down anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d argue with what we know at this time that the Government have done a great job, yes, there has been some errors and yes, more errors may come out in the fullness of time, but still don’t believe anyone else would of done better.

The main area of concern for me has been communication, I believe some of the issues they brought on themselves by either poor communication, mixed messages or bad timing.

I’d of much preferred a harsher, tougher lockdown with big penalties, but they seemed to almost try and appease everyone which, imo, was wrong.
		
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You can't really communicate in advance about the decisions you will be making in a clear way unless you have a plan and a comms strategy around it.   Of course there has to be some significant element of reaction to events around the pandemic, but it seems that some of the decision making we are seeing is in response to the actions of a somewhat confused UK population and political/economic imperatives. 

Apparently we now (as of yesterday?) have the capacity to test 200,000 a day (which is a very good thing - though not sure how many tests are actually being carried out).  That's very handy given it happens to meet what Johnson said would happen.  But unfortunately - given the previous target on testing, Contact Tracing and the Dominishambles -  I have reached the point that I frankly don't believe much of what I am hearing from the mouths of Johnson and the Quad.  I found it telling that the Sunday Times reported yesterday that Vallance and Whiitey declined to be part of the briefing when Johnson 'cleared' Cummings of any wrong-doing.

BTW - before any attack me for being 'disrespectful' in referring to key ministers as 'the Quad'...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/18/boris-johnson-starts-take-back-control/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Listening to Lord Sumption (a libertarian I believe) I am confused about the over 70s and the vulnerable in respect of shielding. Have these these groups been *compelled *to stay indoors or have they simply been *advised *to stay indoors.  So much talk from those advocating a complete relaxation is about 'allowing' the vulnerable and the rest of us to go out of their homes - but surely they haven't been under 'house arrest'?  So what are they being allowed to do that they previously absolutely couldn't


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Lord Sumption (a libertarian I believe) I am confused about the over 70s and the vulnerable in respect of shielding. Have these these groups been *compelled *to stay indoors or have they simply been *advised *to stay indoors.  So much talk from those advocating a complete relaxation is about 'allowing' the vulnerable and the rest of us to go out of their homes - but surely they haven't been under 'house arrest'?  So what are they being allowed to do that they previously absolutely couldn't
		
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I was under the impression that those who got the letter were told to stay at home and not leave the house for any reason with people picking up their shopping, medication the lot. I am not sure that it was a full house arrest type thing but I believe it was worded that if you left home there was a strong chance you could die. I think that they are a couple of steps behind the general population that they can now go outside and meet with one person.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 1, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I was under the impression that those who got the letter were told to stay at home and not leave the house for any reason with people picking up their shopping, medication the lot. I am not sure that it was a full house arrest type thing but I believe it was worded that if you left home there was a strong chance you could die. I think that they are a couple of steps behind the general population that they can now go outside and meet with one person.
		
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Yes that’s more or less the letter my wife got.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Lord Sumption (a libertarian I believe) I am confused about the over 70s and the vulnerable in respect of shielding. Have these these groups been *compelled *to stay indoors or have they simply been *advised *to stay indoors.  So much talk from those advocating a complete relaxation is about 'allowing' the vulnerable and the rest of us to go out of their homes - but surely they haven't been under 'house arrest'?  So what are they being allowed to do that they previously absolutely couldn't
		
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Why are you, even now, lumping the over 70's together with those who were advised in writing by the DoH to self isolate due to their vulnerability arising from pre-existing conditions?
Those in the latter group are of all ages.
Two separate groups subject to different guidance.


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## rulefan (Jun 1, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I was under the impression that those who got the letter were told to stay at home and not leave the house for any reason with people picking up their shopping, medication the lot. I am not sure that it was a full house arrest type thing but I believe it was worded that if you left home *there was a strong chance you could die**.* I think that they are a couple of steps behind the general population that they can now go outside and meet with one person.
		
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It was rather more nuanced. There was a strong chance you would die *if you became infected.*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I’d point to the excess deaths figures and beg to differ. The vast majority of governments around the world have done better, some of them massively so.

I appreciate the need to rally round and help the country get out of this mess but let’s not do so at the cost of ignoring the unpleasant truth of how we got here.
		
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But until we have the true figure I’ll keep my powder dry.

I’m Labour thru and thru, but I’m yet to see concrete evidence that can damn them at this stage, nothing to do with unpleasant truth.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can't really communicate in advance about the decisions you will be making in a clear way unless you have a plan and a comms strategy around it.   Of course there has to be some significant element of reaction to events around the pandemic, but it seems that some of the decision making we are seeing is in respon*se to the actions of a somewhat confused UK population a*nd political/economic imperatives.

Apparently we now (as of yesterday?) have the capacity to test 200,000 a day (which is a very good thing - though not sure how many tests are actually being carried out).  That's very handy given it happens to meet what Johnson said would happen.  But unfortunately - given the previous target on testing, Contact Tracing and the Dominishambles -  I have reached the point that I frankly don't believe much of what I am hearing from the mouths of Johnson and the Quad.  I found it telling that the Sunday Times reported yesterday that Vallance and Whiitey declined to be part of the briefing when Johnson 'cleared' Cummings of any wrong-doing.

BTW - before any attack me for being 'disrespectful' in referring to key ministers as 'the Quad'...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/18/boris-johnson-starts-take-back-control/

Click to expand...

Don't believe we have a confused population at all. We have a majority (just😀) who are behaving responsibly and understand the situation, and then we have the numpties who are saying ," Sod it, I'll do what I want. The weather's great, etc etc."
The latter make the headlines,which normally suggests that they are not too much to worry about,  but I don't find that a comfort; because there are too many of them behaving selfishly enough to threaten the R rate.
GB72 made a reasonable point in post 3312- It could be that the government saw the steam coming from out the kettle spout.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't believe we have a confused population at all. We have a majority (just😀) who are behaving responsibly and understand the situation, and then we have the numpties who are saying ," Sod it, I'll do what I want. The weather's great, etc etc."
The latter make the headlines,which normally suggests that they are not too much to worry about,  but I don't find that a comfort; because there are too many of them behaving selfishly enough to threaten the R rate.
GB72 made a reasonable point in post 3312- It could be that the government saw the steam coming from out the kettle spout.
		
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I could not tell you the new rules other than at a guess.  I believe many are in the same position.  We continue to stick pretty solidly to the rules as they were at the outset.

My question in respect of the elderly and vulnerable was around the idea that over 70s and vulnerable were subject to the same guidance - stay at home and be shielded from the virus for 12 weeks.  If I am wrong then I didn't understand the difference.

Now I hear that one or both of the over 70s and most vulnerable groups are 'allowed' to leave their home.  By saying they are 'allowed' to leave their home implies that previously they were NOT allowed.  Was that the case?  I am not aware that anyone HAD to stay indoors at all times.  But that cannot surely be true.

And 12 weeks is not up.


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## Wolf (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I’d point to the excess deaths figures and beg to differ. *The vast majority of governments around the world have done better, some of them massively so*.

I appreciate the need to rally round and help the country get out of this mess but let’s not do so at the cost of ignoring the unpleasant truth of how we got here.
		
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I can't agree with that point because the truth of the matter is we don't know factually if other nations have done far better. The reporting structure isn't standard for each country, if we'd followed a similar system of reporting to many other nations our numbers could well look better or theirs worse if they reported in same manner we do.. So i just don't buy into they've failed because our death toll is higher than other nations, its not comparable as its not consistent. 

As much as there have been concerns with some of their handling of certain situations Dom, PPE & testing Numbers. They have equally acted in best interests of nation in many other ways with furlough, prioritising the more vulnerable etc.. There is no way to say any other party or government would have dealt with it better, fairer or achieved lower numbers of deaths. 

It's not ignoring the unpleasant truth either as that's there for all to see, its easy in hindsight for other parties to state what they'd have done differently, but fact is they didn't do enough to get into power and the government we have, have been dealing with the situations as they arise as best they see fit. That's all we can ask of any government in times like this, we can then pass judgement at the next GE..


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## rulefan (Jun 1, 2020)

[QUOTE="Wolf, post: 2184327, member: 25167"*The reporting structure isn't standard for each country,* if we'd followed a similar system of reporting to many other nations our numbers could well look better or theirs worse if they reported in same manner we do.. [/QUOTE]
That is it exactly. 
How are deaths and influencing factors recorded on the death certificate? How are they coded? How are they analysed and reported?
The ONS (as it is now) is probably far more sophisticated than most of the row.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I could not tell you the new rules other than at a guess.  I believe many are in the same position.  We continue to stick pretty solidly to the rules as they were at the outset.

My question in respect of the elderly and vulnerable was around the idea that over 70s and vulnerable were subject to the same guidance - stay at home and be shielded from the virus for 12 weeks.  If I am wrong then I didn't understand the difference.

Now I hear that one or both of the over 70s and most vulnerable groups are 'allowed' to leave their home.  By saying they are 'allowed' to leave their home implies that previously they were NOT allowed.  Was that the case?  I am not aware that anyone HAD to stay indoors at all times.  But that cannot surely be true.

And 12 weeks is not up.
		
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The detail has been there for anyone to see and broadcast continually, I cant see why you dont understand them when you are normally so interested in the detail of such subjects.

The group that have been told to stay at home and be 'shielded' are people with certain underlying medical conditions, these people have been informed by letter.  Those over 70 without serious medical conditions have not been informed by letter but have been advised they can leave home but should take particular care to avoid contact with others.


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## Old Skier (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The detail has been there for anyone to see and broadcast continually, I cant see why you dont understand them when you are normally so interested in the detail of such subjects.

The group that have been told to stay at home and be 'shielded' are people with certain underlying medical conditions, these people have been informed by letter.  Those over 70 without serious medical conditions have not been informed by letter but have been advised they can leave home but should take particular care to avoid contact with others.
		
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For someone who spends so much time on the web it's strange that others have to continually point him in the right direction. Anyone who is truly interested, the correct information is out there.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

I find it hard to understand why so many are pushing a hard political party policy with Covid, we keep seeing people saying that the government should have done this or that differently, other countries have been good at dealing with it and we are bad, our death rates are high and others are low but most of this talk is horribly biased and prone to use dodgy statistics.   Its absolutely wrong to manipulate the information to satisfy your political preferences.

I keep seeing people going on about how higher our death rate is compared to other countries without any consideration of population density, if you study a graph showing deaths per million of population you will see most countries follow a much similar curve on a graph.  Even this method doesnt give a fair comparison,  population density is bound to be a factor, London with 9.3 million people in such a small area will have a massive influence.

I know it's not a competition and that's the point I make, there will be a trade off between control of the virus and reviving the ecconomy and that has to be great a concern for Governments when deciding what to do next.  I'm just glad I dont have to make these decisions but also that some of the others who like to make a pastime at complaining dont either.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm certainly not claiming any particular party would have definitely have handled it any better. What I am disputing is the claim that our government has "done a great job"  because any objective analysis shows that is patently untrue. I don't want to be too damning because I recognise the critical mistakes were made at the onset of the pandemic which effectively locked in the horrific death toll and their response improved since then and has been a mixture of good and bad. But mistakes were made that cost thousands of lives and that should not be swept under the carpet.
		
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I’m looking at the overall picture, totally agree the death toll is horrific, regardless of counting method, 1 death was 1 too many.

I’m looking at measures they’ve taken for the people, for business’s etc as well.

I’d like to believe at this point that all and every measure they’ve taken have been to save lives and look after us all, Yes, they’ve made mistakes and at times needed a kick up the backside, I’ve never advocated waiting until this is over for them to learn, they had, to and they did, adjust on route.

I just fail at this time, without all the facts, to see what they could of done differently at the time to save thousands of lives, that sort of information will only come out when the enquiry takes place.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm certainly not claiming any particular party would have definitely have handled it any better. What I am disputing is the claim that our government has "done a great job"  because any objective analysis shows that is patently untrue. I don't want to be too damning because I recognise the critical mistakes were made at the onset of the pandemic which effectively locked in the horrific death toll and their response improved since then and has been a mixture of good and bad. But mistakes were made that cost thousands of lives and that should not be swept under the carpet.
		
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Hindsight, it's a great attribute.
I dont see anyone saying 'Our Government has done a great job'  only people using the phrase as a party political blunt instrument, like you just have.     Does anyone believe we have a government that wanted a high death rate or that the whole UK machine is somehow faulty and inferior to most other countries.

Time will tell what the rights and wrongs are and what lessons can be learned but something that has become evident to me is we now live in a society that is always looking for blame and division, even in places where it doesnt really exist and this is creating hugely distorted perceptions of reality.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m looking at the overall picture, totally agree the death toll is horrific, regardless of counting method, 1 death was 1 too many.

I’m looking at measures they’ve taken for the people, for business’s etc as well.

I’d like to believe at this point that all and every measure they’ve taken have been to save lives and look after us all, Yes, they’ve made mistakes and at times needed a kick up the backside, I’ve never advocated waiting until this is over for them to learn, they had, to and they did, adjust on route.

*I just fail at this time, without all the facts, to see what they could of done differently at the time to save thousands of lives*, that sort of information will only come out when the enquiry takes place.
		
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Lockdown quicker, get test, trace and track up and running quicker? As they seem to be reoccurring themes form the countries that seem to have handled this better.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hindsight, it's a great attribute.
I dont see anyone saying 'Our Government *has done a great job*'  only people using the phrase as a party political blunt instrument, like you just have.     Does anyone believe we have a government that wanted a high death rate or that the whole UK machine is somehow faulty and inferior to most other countries.

Time will tell what the rights and wrongs are and what lessons can be learned but something that has become evident to me is we now live in a society that is always looking for blame and division, even in places where it doesnt really exist and this is creating hugely distorted perceptions of reality.
		
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I said it in post #3315.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Lockdown quicker, get test, trace and track up and running quicker? As they seem to be reoccurring themes form the countries that seem to have handled this better.
		
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Hindsight, they didn’t at the time with the advice they were given.

I wish they’d of locked us down at the first sign, cancelled Cheltenham, had more PPE, stopped flights from abroad etc, they didn’t and we need to find out why they took the decisions they did.

Until then.......


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



*Hindsight, they didn’t at the time with the advice they were given.*

I wish they’d of locked us down at the first sign, cancelled Cheltenham, had more PPE, stopped flights from abroad etc, they didn’t and we need to find out why they took the decisions they did.

Until then.......
		
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I would argue that that is potentially ignoring the political interpretation of the advice and the competence of the decision makers.  I understood we had some of the best scientists in the world in this field, so I am assuming the advice they had was some of the best.  So why if we had some of the best advice were we not locking down quicker or prioritizing getting track and trace running?  That to me is an issue of competence.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would argue that that is potentially ignoring the political interpretation of the advice and the competence of the decision makers.  I understood we had some of the best scientists in the world in this field, so I am assuming the advice they had was some of the best.  So why if we had some of the best advice were we not locking down quicker or prioritizing getting track and trace running?  That to me is an issue of competence.
		
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That is a question that needs to be asked, I agree, but until it’s asked and answered, we are guessing, aren’t we?


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## Wolf (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm certainly not claiming any particular party would have definitely have handled it any better. What I am disputing is the claim that our government has "done a great job"  because any objective analysis shows that is patently untrue. I don't want to be too damning because I recognise the critical mistakes were made at the onset of the pandemic which effectively locked in the horrific death toll and their response improved since then and has been a mixture of good and bad. But mistakes were made that cost thousands of lives and that should not be swept under the carpet.
		
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Its easy to dispute that though using the wonder of hindsight and inaccuracies of global reporting of figures because you cannot compare what we report to anyone else as nobody is using the same methods. I wouldn't say they done a great job or a poor job they've merely done the job at hand. But you cannot equally say they've done a bad job because other countries report lese deaths, especially as they're not reporting facts the same way. 

As I've said there have been mistakes, which they must learn and it won't be swept under the carpet by the voters, that's why we have the GE we get to pass judgement on the government by voting them out next time round. I'd happily see this government voted out as I'm not a fan of Tory governments but they are what we have now and we need to follow their guidance. I can see that in this case for all the mistakes they're equally trying to do what's right for the majority and that's all any government will ever be able to do.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Lockdown quicker, get test, trace and track up and running quicker? As they seem to be reoccurring themes form the countries that seem to have handled this better.
		
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Like South Korea?
Yes, they did well initially but a few days ago there were reports that they have had to re-introduce lockdown because the easing has put up infection rate.
I'm not criticising them, just pointing out that this is unknown territory for all nations, and I think all nations are trying their best as they see it.
I am presently watching the South news about the numpties at the beaches in
Dorset. The silly BBC are still wittering on about the government message not being clear in the face if their reports showing how the people at those beaches are not giving a damn about SD , or respect for local residents, or the beach( rubbish strewn anywhere) etc.
Clearly, they *know *what they should or should not do, but they are doing whatever they want, and fingers up to the lockdown requirements, whatever easement stage they are at.
For so many, summer's here, and the virus isn't.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Paul did, which was what prompted my reply. I am not being party political on this in any way and I resent the accusation. I have praised the government on this thread where it was merited.  I am merely commenting on the situation and each aspect of it as I see it

And of course I don't think they wanted a high death rate. What a ridiculous thing to say. They made some massive mistakes early on that have proven very costly. It's reasonable to be able to point that out without being called out for it  by partisans such as yourself.
		
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I do owe you an apology. I have Paul on 'Ignore' so dont see his posts, this does sometimes create a disjointing in some threads, your post came over in a different context.
Again, my apologies.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

This article has a different take on things. I have no idea about this magazine so no idea what, if any, political bias it may have or how extreme in the political spectrum it is but was interesting

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-lockdowns-founding-myth/

Ok looking it up it is right wing biased but still interesting


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Like South Korea?
*Yes, they did well initially but a few days ago there were reports that they have had to re-introduce lockdown because the easing has put up infection rate.*
I'm not criticising them, just pointing out that this is unknown territory for all nations, and I think all nations are trying their best as they see it.
I am presently watching the South news about the numpties at the beaches in
Dorset. The silly BBC are still wittering on about the government message not being clear in the face if their reports showing how the people at those beaches are not giving a damn about SD , or respect for local residents, or the beach( rubbish strewn anywhere) etc.
Clearly, they know what they should or should not do, but they are doing whatever they want, and fingers up to the lockdown requirements, whatever easement stage they are at.
For so many, summer's here, and the virus isn't.
		
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Burt surely that indicates their strategy is working?  Test, trace and isolate involves being able to shot down any local outbreaks very quickly and that's going to happen in this country as well.


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

Anyone that ranks countries:

What's the ideal situation for a virus that has no vaccine or cure? Until such is found, herd immunity is the only criteria for a normal life.


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## bluewolf (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Anyone that ranks countries:

What's the ideal situation for a virus that has no vaccine or cure? Until such is found, herd immunity is the only criteria for a normal life.
		
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Just for clarity. 
Are you saying that Herd Immunity is what we should be doing, or do you think that it is what the Government are doing but not telling us?
 Or have I missed your point (most likely😂)?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Anyone that ranks countries:

What's the ideal situation for a virus that has no vaccine or cure? Until such is found, herd immunity is the only criteria for a normal life.
		
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How about isolating the virus so its existence becomes lower.


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Just for clarity.
Are you saying that Herd Immunity is what we should be doing, or do you think that it is what the Government are doing but not telling us?
Or have I missed your point (most likely😂)?
		
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I believe it's what our government has been doing since day 1 (along with a few others). But then It throws me off when they **** up care homes so badly, and can't even see their mistakes. My point is, apart from not overwhelming hospitals, whats the goal? 



SocketRocket said:



			How about isolating the virus so its existence becomes lower.
		
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Ideal situation agreed, but it had been here in 2019 most likely. Control is already lost. Do we shut borders and trade until a vaccine is here?


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## bluewolf (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I believe it's what our government has been doing since day 1 (along with a few others). But then It throws me off when they **** up care homes so badly, and can't even see their mistakes. My point is, apart from not overwhelming hospitals, whats the goal?
		
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Ok, I do actually agree with you, but that would mean that what several Governments (including ours) has done is to intentionally expose more people to the virus, resulting in many more short term deaths.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Do we shut borders and trade until a vaccine is here?
		
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I thought that's what we are doing now with people but not sure where trade comes into it.


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought that's what we are doing now with people but not sure where trade comes into it.
		
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Borders have never been shut. 

The virus travels in cargo also. (Itonically it was wither PPE or test kits that still contained infection)


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, I do actually agree with you, but that would mean that what several Governments (including ours) has done is to intentionally expose more people to the virus, resulting in many more short term deaths.
		
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I guess that's true to a sense, do short term deaths have any more weight than medium term? The strategy to give everyone a hospital bed I think was successful.

The government royally mucked up with care homes. I saw a Tory MP not admitting fault the other day, but he said we should have had more healthcare staff in the homes (a ludicrous idea. I'm no epidemiologist, but you fully isolate those at huge risk, theres no cure you can only limit transmission) 

But for the greater population, I still don't understand what the ideal situation is. (I hope a vaccine comes tommorow so I look stupid)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The detail has been there for anyone to see and broadcast continually, I cant see why you dont understand them when you are normally so interested in the detail of such subjects.

The group that have been told to stay at home and be 'shielded' are people with certain underlying medical conditions, these people have been informed by letter.  Those over 70 without serious medical conditions have not been informed by letter but have been advised they can leave home but should take particular care to avoid contact with others.
		
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So who is it that is now allowed out who weren’t allowed out before.  And you are right.  If I really felt hat I needed to fully understand the detail of the rules as they are now the I know I could find that out.  But I don’t need to as we are basically sticking to the lockdown rules.  

However that I am not completely clear on the detail as I have picked it up, suggests that many others also might not be clear.  However that i would look into it if I had the need does not mean that many others would do the same - and might just simply - say sod it all - I can’t be bothered with this...


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## rulefan (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So who is it that is now allowed out who weren’t allowed out before.  And you are right.  If I really felt hat I needed to fully understand the detail of the rules as they are now the I know I could find that out.  But I don’t need to as we are basically sticking to the lockdown rules. 

However that I am not completely clear on the detail as I have picked it up, suggests that many others also might not be clear.  However that i would look into it if I had the need does not mean that many others would do the same - and might just simply - say sod it all - I can’t be bothered with this...
		
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Who is allowed out has not changed. What they may do and who they may meet has.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Who is allowed out has not changed. What they may do and who they may meet has.
		
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Yes it has for those who were shielding:

“More lockdown rules are being relaxed in England, allowing the most vulnerable people to go outside again. 

For 10 weeks, people who are most at risk of becoming seriously ill from coronavirus have been told not to leave their homes at all. This is called social shielding.

From Monday, the latest change will allow those who have been shielding to go outside with members of their household and meet one other person.”


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Borders have never been shut.

The virus travels in cargo also. (Itonically it was wither PPE or test kits that still contained infection)
		
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People have to isolate for two weeks now when they come into the country


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes it has for those who were shielding:

“More lockdown rules are being relaxed in England, allowing the most vulnerable people to go outside again.

For 10 weeks, people who are most at risk of becoming seriously ill from coronavirus have been told not to leave their homes at all. This is called social shielding.

From Monday, the latest change will allow those who have been shielding to go outside with members of their household and meet one other person.”
		
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So even on this most basic point there is inconsistent understanding,  and I ask again - which groups have not been *allowed *out because if some are *now* allowed out that means that previously they were not. And I simply do not believe that it was _ever_ the case that a group was not allowed to leave their homes yet that is the language used.  Advised to not leave yes - but not actually allowed?


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			People have to isolate for two weeks now when they come into the country
		
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They don't. 8th of June.

There's no enforcement either.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So even on this most basic point there is inconsistent understanding,  and I ask again - which groups have not been *allowed *out because if some are *now* allowed out that means that previously they were not. And I simply do not believe that it was _ever_ the case that a group was not allowed to leave their homes yet that is the language used.  Advised to not leave yes - but not actually allowed?
		
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You are playing games with semantics and I believe you know very well what the rules are and how they operate.  Its unusual in the UK to instruct the populace to restrict their basic freedoms, we rather make rules/laws and ask people not to break them, some have no penalties if broken and some do.
The rules are laid out on the .Gov site and you are free to read and digest them like anyone else but I think you have a deeper agenda.

I think Kipling put it well:
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			They don't. 8th of June.

There's no enforcement either.
		
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There is a fine of up to £1,000 or deportation for breaking these quaranteen rules.


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There is a fine of up to £1,000 or deportation for breaking these quaranteen rules.
		
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A "yes I was mistaken borders have not and are not currently shut" would have sufficed. 

How is that enforced?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			A "yes I was mistaken borders have not and are not currently shut" would have sufficed. 

How is that enforced?
		
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OK, if you want to be pedantic, the quaranteen starts next week 😉

A "yes I was mistaken there are penalties relating to the new quaranteen rules"  would have sufficed 😉

I have no idea how the penalties will be enforced, I know that anyone coming into the country has to give a place where they will quaranteen or they will be placed in an allocated quaranteen centre.


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## DanFST (Jun 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, if you want to be pedantic, the quaranteen starts next week 😉

A "yes I was mistaken there are penalties relating to the new quaranteen rules"  would have sufficed 😉

I have no idea how the penalties will be enforced, I know that anyone coming into the country has to give a place where they will quaranteen or they will be placed in an allocated quaranteen centre.
		
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I won't pile on. But the facts are borders have never been shut and nothing coming looks like they will be. 


My girlfriends friend is staying in my London flat for a month or so as it's unused. Shes flying from Rome to Heathrow, she's got a zipcar to get there. I can almost guarantee border force won't ask her for proof of any of this, nor has she been told of any precautions she needs to take either from Alitalia or the UK gov. Nor will anyone enforce when she's there. 

It's just pointless words.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I won't pile on. But the facts are borders have never been shut and nothing coming looks like they will be.


My girlfriends friend is staying in my London flat for a month or so as it's unused. Shes flying from Rome to Heathrow, she's got a zipcar to get there. I can almost guarantee border force won't ask her for proof of any of this, nor has she been told of any precautions she needs to take either from Alitalia or the UK gov. Nor will anyone enforce when she's there.

It's just pointless words.
		
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I dont enforce the rules, just explained them but it will be interesting to hear what happens. After the 8th that is.


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## rulefan (Jun 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			For 10 weeks, people who are most at risk of becoming seriously ill from coronavirus have been told not to leave their homes at all. This is called social shielding.
		
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This was advice, not an instruction - as specified in the letter addressed to relevant people


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## Mudball (Jun 2, 2020)

Friends have organised camping in the backgarden for the boys and dads.  If it is good enuf for DomCom, its good enough for us...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You are playing games with semantics and I believe you know very well what the rules are and how they operate.  Its unusual in the UK to instruct the populace to restrict their basic freedoms, we rather make rules/laws and ask people not to break them, some have no penalties if broken and some do.
The rules are laid out on the .Gov site and you are free to read and digest them like anyone else but I think you have a deeper agenda.

I think Kipling put it well:
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"
		
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I'm sorry - but I have heard many over-70s complain that they have been discriminated against as they have not been *allowed *out.  In the rules words are very important - as we know from the interpretation that some individuals take from them.  I had to explain to my M-i-L that she was not *required* to stay in her house - she was simply very strongly advised to do so.

And as already mentioned.  I am not fully up to speed on the relaxations as we are simply sticking pretty much to what we have been doing for the last 10 weeks.  We are fortunate in us having been able to live our lives pretty close to normal - and can continue to do so.  If we want or need to do something different it is easy enough for me to find out what the relaxations allow.  I am not sure that everyone will bother.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm sorry - but I have heard many over-70s complain that they have been discriminated against as they have not been *allowed *out.  In the rules words are very important - as we know from the interpretation that some individuals take from them.  I had to explain to my M-i-L that she was not *required* to stay in her house - she was simply very strongly advised to do so.
		
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Well my wife and I are both over 70 (just!) and we clearly understood the guidelines, not rules.

Are you suggesting that the authorities should contact each individual to ensure that they personally understand?

Or perhaps they were right in taking the view that the vast majority were, like us, aware of the recommendations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			This was advice, not an instruction - as specified in the letter addressed to relevant people
		
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...and this is a simple example of how the message the government is putting out has been, and is still in some aspects, not specific enough.  We have heard some experts now tell us that some elderly and most vulnerable people have been scared witless about leaving their home - and part of that comes down to them thinking that things were so dangerous they were not allowed to leave their homes.  Now of course things must be OK because they are allowed to leave our homes.  And they are *not *OK - they are better and risk is lower - but things are not OK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well my wife and I are both over 70 (just!) and we clearly understood the guidelines, not rules.

Are you suggesting that the authorities should contact each individual to ensure that they personally understand?

Or perhaps they were right in taking the view that the vast majority were, like us, aware of the recommendations.
		
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Johnson did.  He sent a letter to every single one of us.

And look - if I read and hear that some people are confused by the messaging then some are confused.  Don't ask me why they are confused or whether they are just saying they are confused to excuse their behaviour.  If the guidance was that over 70s are advised to stay at home and be shielded then the message should not be that they *must* stay at home. 

And now the message should not be that those same groups are now *allowed* to leave their homes - because they always have been.  It is a misleading message.  It is as easy to phrase a message accurately and unambiguously as it is to make it misleading. If we leave things down to interpretation we know where we end up.  Just get the message accurate.

And similarly we find that we can start relaxation when we are in 'transition' between Level 4 and Level 3.  Transition was nowhere mentioned as I recall in any of the statements made daily explaining the levels and when relaxations could be started.  But they have - and we are not at Level 3.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson did.  He sent a letter to every single one of us.

And look - if I read and hear that some people are confused by the messaging then some are confused.  Don't ask me why they are confused or whether they are just saying they are confused to excuse their behaviour.  If the guidance was that over 70s are advised to stay at home and be shielded then the message should not be that they *must* stay at home.

And now the message should not be that those same groups are now *allowed* to leave their homes - because they always have been.  It is a misleading message.  It is as easy to phrase a message accurately and unambiguously as it is to make it misleading. If we leave things down to interpretation we know where we end up.  Just get the message accurate.

And similarly we find that we can start relaxation when we are in 'transition' between Level 4 and Level 3.  Transition was nowhere mentioned as I recall in any of the statements made daily explaining the levels and when relaxations could be started.  But they have - and we are not at Level 3.
		
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Where did it say that those over 70 without health issues should stay at home and be shielded?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			This was advice, not an instruction - as specified in the letter addressed to relevant people
		
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Suggest you quote all of my post as the selective reply leaves out the “rules” “told” “allowing” from the Government Press Release, or is this another time the Government are telling us to use initiative?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm sorry - but I have heard many over-70s complain that they have been discriminated against as they have not been *allowed *out.  In the rules words are very important - as we know from the interpretation that some individuals take from them.  I had to explain to my M-i-L that she was not *required* to stay in her house - she was simply very strongly advised to do so.

And as already mentioned.  I am not fully up to speed on the relaxations as we are simply sticking pretty much to what we have been doing for the last 10 weeks.  We are fortunate in us having been able to live our lives pretty close to normal - and can continue to do so.  If we want or need to do something different it is easy enough for me to find out what the relaxations allow.  I am not sure that everyone will bother.
		
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Over 70s have been allowed out, they have been asked to be particularly careful to keep social distancing, only people (of any age) with underlieing health issues have been asked to stay at home and shield.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 2, 2020)

Quite honestly, I am somewhat fed up of this claim ,seen far too often , that the government message is confusing.
It isn't. People are being told it is, but it isn't. If you look at a TV and listen, then it has been clearly put , time and again. Letters have been sent.
E.g  Government says "from Monday next, the restrictions of such and such are being eased to such and such."
So, the people who preempt this and do it on Sunday( because it's brilliant summer weather) have made a decision to ignore the ruling.
That's their decision.
But it is wrong to say that the government were confusing, merely because they gave a future date that something's begins.!
Nor has there been any confusion over " shielding".  They have been identified , because of their medical conditions, and individually advised.
There has then been updated advice to those "shielding".
If you are not shielding, then the advice doesn't apply to you.
I am over 70, and as many on here similarly aged have said, I have been clear that the "shielding" advice has not been directed to me.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Q*uite honestly, I am somewhat fed up of this claim ,seen far too often , that the government message is confusing.
It isn't. People are being told it is, but it isn't. If you look at a TV and listen, then it has been clearly put , time and again. Letters have been sent.*
E.g  Government says "from Monday next, the restrictions of such and such are being eased to such and such."
So, the people who preempt this and do it on Sunday( because it's brilliant summer weather) have made a decision to ignore the ruling.
That's their decision.
But it is wrong to say that the government were confusing, merely because they gave a future date that something's begins.!
Nor has there been any confusion over " shielding".  They have been identified , because of their medical conditions, and individually advised.
There has then been updated advice to those "shielding".
If you are not shielding, then the advice doesn't apply to you.
I am over 70, and as many on here similarly aged have said, I have been clear that the "shielding" advice has not been directed to me.
		
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I think the real question is why an increasing number of people do not seem to trust or listen to what the government says with regards to the current crisis.  You can be as clear as you want, but if you are dealing with quite nuanced situations and a lot of the nation loses faith in what you are saying for whatever reason then you still have a problem. Especially in the past if you have given the impression complex subjects can be summarised with easy slogans and answers.


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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

^^^confused & confusing aren’t interchangeable


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## rulefan (Jun 2, 2020)

therod said:



			^^^confused & confusing aren’t interchangeable
		
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Add _unwilling to read  _to that. 
I can't believe so many people who have reached of my age cannot understand straightforward English.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Add _unwilling to read  _to that.
I can't believe so many people who have reached of my age cannot understand straightforward English.
		
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Your wasting your time, there seem to be a problem with instructions and the SILH family, be it info on the current crisis or getting tax returns in on time. There are those that do as asked or those who choose to ignore.

As for those who are off doing things because "Cummings " did need to take a serious look in the mirror. I presume next thing they will be doing is wearing scruffy joggers and a beanie hat when they go to work.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your wasting your time, there seem to be a problem with instructions and the SILH family, be it info on the current crisis or getting tax returns in on time. There are those that do as asked or those who choose to ignore.

As for those who are off doing things because "Cummings " did need to take a serious look in the mirror. I* presume next thing they will be doing is wearing scruffy joggers and a beanie hat when they go to work.*

Click to expand...

I'm way ahead of the curve on that one....


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## drdel (Jun 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Add _unwilling to read  _to that. 
I can't believe so many people who have reached of my age cannot understand straightforward English.
		
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Add that to the fact many are too arrogant or stupid to accept that someone might know more than themselves. They will blame the messenger in a look for an excuse so as to not follow guidance.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm way ahead of the curve on that one....
		
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Your lucky, can't get my hair under a beanie anymore


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2020)

drdel said:



*Add that to the fact many are too arrogant or stupid to accept that someone might know more than themselves. They will blame the messenger in a look for an excuse so as to not follow guidance.*

Click to expand...

Good job no one expecting us to trust experts pushed the message not to trust experts or to use our instinct recently, or we would be in trouble.


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## Mudball (Jun 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your lucky, can't get my hair under a beanie anymore
		
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What hair?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			Add that to the fact *many are too arrogant or stupid to accept that someone might know more than themselves.* They will blame the messenger in a look for an excuse so as to not follow guidance.
		
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And that's no way to talk about the government. https://www.itv.com/news/2020-05-30...n-easing-lifting-england-coronavirus-covid19/ 

Well arrogant and stupid is actually it is spot on, so fair play.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2020)

The information is clear. The issue is people beginning to feel the problem is over and so ignoring it or interpreting it to meet their own needs. If we need to go back to lockdown, how much support will the public give the decision a second time?


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## rulefan (Jun 2, 2020)

My point was picking up on the issue of the 'shielded' not understanding they could actually go out, albeit with caution.
Excusing those with dementia, the words in the letter they received weren't difficult to understand.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good job no one expecting us to trust experts pushed the message not to trust experts or to use our instinct recently, or we would be in trouble.
		
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Genuine question. What does your post mean? I have read it a few times and it makes little sence to me.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Lol. Nails it.
		
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Does it?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yes
		
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Maybe you can explain it then.


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## Mudball (Jun 2, 2020)

What an omnishambles is our handling of this lockdown

Dentist came to know they are reopening via a ticker during BoJo's 'lockdown is over' speech/bluster.  No one told them - not the governing bodies, nor the insurance, nor the companies.  No guidelines were published.  It is a case of every man/woman to themselves as they try to figure out how to work in a dental clinic.  They are frontline as they use aerosols into patient mouths and now need PPE.  Guess what NO F****ing PPE.  

I spent my afternoon trying to make phone calls and search on the interweb of ppe kit.  nothing yet.  Govt wont supply it either


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question. What does your post mean? I have read it a few times and it makes little sence to me.
		
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Glad it wasn't just me then.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			What an omnishambles is our handling of this lockdown

Dentist came to know they are reopening via a ticker during BoJo's 'lockdown is over' speech/bluster.  No one told them - not the governing bodies, nor the insurance, nor the companies.  No guidelines were published.  It is a case of every man/woman to themselves as they try to figure out how to work in a dental clinic.  They are frontline as they use aerosols into patient mouths and now need PPE.  Guess what NO F****ing PPE. 

I spent my afternoon trying to make phone calls and search on the interweb of ppe kit.  nothing yet.  Govt wont supply it either
		
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The Government does not provide PPE to  anyone. 

Our dentist was using visor, mask and gloves long before this virus.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			What an omnishambles is our handling of this lockdown

Dentist came to know they are reopening via a ticker during BoJo's 'lockdown is over' speech/bluster.  No one told them - not the governing bodies, nor the insurance, nor the companies.  No guidelines were published.  It is a case of every man/woman to themselves as they try to figure out how to work in a dental clinic.  They are frontline as they use aerosols into patient mouths and now need PPE.  Guess what NO F****ing PPE.

I spent my afternoon trying to make phone calls and search on the interweb of ppe kit.  nothing yet.  Govt wont supply it either
		
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How long have the dentists had to realise that they are going to have to reopen, that keeping 2 metres away might be a bit of a stretch and therefore they might have to develop a plan... 

Any omnishambles here is down to the individual dentists.


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## bluewolf (Jun 2, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Glad it wasn't just me then.
		
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It really wasn’t overly difficult to understand, but maybe you have to be of a certain mindset...
The same Government that is telling us to trust the Experts, also told us that we didn’t need experts previously, then told us to trust our instincts more recently  

Happy to help 😉


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 2, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It really wasn’t overly difficult to understand, but maybe you have to be of a certain mindset...
The same Government that is telling us to trust the Experts, also told us that we didn’t need experts previously, then told us to trust our instincts more recently

Happy to help 😉
		
Click to expand...

Now I understand.

But then punctuation can make sentences easier to understand.

As for the original statement I can't recall the  Government asking the public to trust the experts.

They have consistently said they are relying upon advice from scientists before making their decisions.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It really wasn’t overly difficult to understand, but maybe you have to be of a certain mindset...
The same Government that is telling us to trust the Experts, also told us that we didn’t need experts previously, then told us to trust our instincts more recently

Happy to help 😉
		
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So it's about Brexit? Also, wasnt that a different Government?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I could, yes. But since you're not stupid I'm sure you know exactly what it means.
		
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I am not that complicated. If I ask for something to be explained it's because I dont follow its meaning.  But if you want to use it for silly comments then I dont understand you either.


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## JamesR (Jun 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's about Brexit?
		
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Why are you so obsessed with Brexit?

If you are so against it I’m sure there are things that could be done; why not write to your MP?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 2, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Now I understand.

But then punctuation can make sentences easier to understand.

As for the original statement I can't recall the  Government asking the public to trust the experts.

*They have consistently said they are relying upon advice from scientists before making their decisions.*

Click to expand...

Unless they are wanting to relax lock down measures to distract attention from the PMs special adviser breaking lock down rules. I can't see any other reason for them saying that those who are vulnerable and have previously been shielding are now allowed to go out when that has always been under Covid alert level 1 while we are still under level 4/3.


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## bluewolf (Jun 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's about Brexit? Also, wasnt that a different Government?
		
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If you wish to be pedantic, then yes. 

It was, IIRC, Michael Gove though...

Anyway, I don’t want to get pulled into this conversation at the moment. It’s become quite boring and monotonous. See you all on other threads 👍


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Why are you so obsessed with Brexit?

If you are so against it I’m sure there are things that could be done; why not write to your MP?
		
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I'm not obsessed with it at all, but it seems someone else is. I take it from the explanation given; the comment from HK was relating to Government not trusting Experts in the Brexit campaign but are now with Covid.  So explain your comment because I'm getting really confused with what's being branded about here.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			If you wish to be pedantic, then yes.

It was, IIRC, Michael Gove though...

Anyway, I don’t want to get pulled into this conversation at the moment. It’s become quite boring and monotonous. See you all on other threads 👍
		
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Me Pedantic. Either that's the meaning or it's not 🙄


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## GB72 (Jun 2, 2020)

May be an over simplification but surely there is no compulsion to go out, socialise etc. If you feel you need to stay locked down then I respect that and you can stay at home. 

It has been said that people think it is all over. See, I don't think people necessarily believe the problem is over but rather have a degree of realism together with a limit of what they can take. 

On the reality side of things, we are at the end of what the government can afford to pay for so people have to work and shops have to open. Lockdown is one thing, lockdown with no money is a whole different ball game. So people are working and in more daily contact so people want to relax after work and see less issue with others around them.

As for parks and beaches, I refuse to judge. I have an ok house with a garden in the countryside so everything is on my doorstep. If I was in an urban environment you can pretty much guarantee that I would head for a park or a beach to maintain my sanity.

I will not judge people on their actions until I know the full story. What I do see is the irony that on one part of the forum people have been seeing no problem with 4 ball golf and were quite virulent in their arguing for it yet the world will end now I can sit in my garden 2m from 3 mates having a beer


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2020)

I see the Minister for 1884 had all the MP's back at the Westminster Museum today doing the conga dance


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Add _unwilling to read  _to that.
I can't believe so many people who have reached of my age cannot understand straightforward English.
		
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And we all realise the implication of that in another context...


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## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			How long have the dentists had to realise that they are going to have to reopen, that keeping 2 metres away might be a bit of a stretch and therefore they might have to develop a plan... 

Any omnishambles here is down to the individual dentists.
		
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Any business who have not put measures in place to assist in a prompt opening when the time arrives sounds like  a failing business to me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your wasting your time, *there seem to be a problem with instructions and the SILH family, be it info on the current crisis or getting tax returns in on time. There are those that do as asked or those who choose to ignore.*

As for those who are off doing things because "Cummings " did need to take a serious look in the mirror. I presume next thing they will be doing is wearing scruffy joggers and a beanie hat when they go to work.
		
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And there are those who know *exactly *what to do in any circumstance that concerns them, and know they can find out and where to look when the circumstances change; and others that actually don't understand or realise what they have to do, but as soon as they do, they get on with it and do it properly.  And I'll think that you'll find that SILH and his family are in these groups.


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			How long have the dentists had to realise that they are going to have to reopen, that keeping 2 metres away might be a bit of a stretch and therefore they might have to develop a plan... 

Any omnishambles here is down to the individual dentists.
		
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Have to agree. Look at the company I work for, a small high street law firm. With the announcement that we had to look to getting on with things we have had to source plastic screens for reception, wall and floor markings, masks for clients attending the office, masks for staff meeting with clients, hand sanitiser etc. OK not full on medical PPE but still the sort of thing that is way outside of the daily norm of a company like ours. Even so, 1st June we are fully up and running, fully compliant with all recommendations etc. It can be done. At least dentists already have access to the relevant supply chain. Plus, as with everything, dentists do not 'have' to re-open, they can re-open once they have all of the kit they need to do so safely. Just because a restriction has been lifted, does not mean that everyone has to change their behavior that very day. Agree that it is very lax though to not have someone trying to secure all of the necessary PPE during lockdown as it was inevitable that, at some stage, they would be back at work with Covid still around.


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## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And there are those who know *exactly *what to do in any circumstance that concerns them, and know they can find out and where to look when the circumstances change; and others that actually don't understand or realise what they have to do, but as soon as they do, they get on with it and do it properly.  And I'll think that you'll find that SILH and his family are in these groups.
		
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I haven't meet you but I know more about your family and their personal circumstances than anyone else on here, and some of it was IMO very personal.

I think its a pretty strange person who would rather come on the internet for advise on some very important matters ranging from the current crises, benefit advise and tax returns rather than go to official sites for the information.  Maybe its just me and if its I can only apologise.


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## Kellfire (Jun 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good job no one expecting us to trust experts pushed the message not to trust experts or to use our instinct recently, or we would be in trouble.
		
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I can only assume the people who don’t understand this clear and obvious post are the same ones who don’t understand the guidance?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I can only assume the people who don’t understand this clear and obvious post are the same ones who don’t understand the guidance? 

Click to expand...

Look, I didnt understand the point it was  making. Dont you sometimes get confused by the point someone is making and need to ask them to clarify it.  Something else I dont understand is why you needed to make that comment, I  have understood the guidance and havent asked for that to be clarified thank you. 😔


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## Kellfire (Jun 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Look, I didnt understand the point it was  making. Dont you sometimes get confused by the point someone is making and need to ask them to clarify it.  Something else I dont understand is why you needed to make that comment, I  have understood the guidance and havent asked for that to be clarified thank you. 😔
		
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Gimme a hug, you big rascal.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Gimme a hug, you big rascal.
		
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Now I'm really confused.
What's the matter with you people, someone asks for clarification in a post and all he gets is sarcastic twaddle.


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## huds1475 (Jun 3, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			How long have the dentists had to realise that they are going to have to reopen, that keeping 2 metres away might be a bit of a stretch and therefore they might have to develop a plan... 

Any omnishambles here is down to the individual dentists.
		
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Agreed.

My bil is well prepared, sourced PPE and has good plans worked through with peers

Interestingly, doesnt seem to be blaming the government for anything.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Any business who have not put measures in place to assist in a prompt opening when the time arrives sounds like  a failing business to me.
		
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It bemuses me with some companies / authorities etc. What have they been doing for the last 8+ weeks? Have the owners, managers etc just been sat in their gardens reading all day? From day one any decent organisation would have had a range of plans in their heads. As things changed they may have amended them slightly  but it was pretty clear what was needed in order to re-open. Blimey, Newcastle Race course ran a meeting with a few days notice. They hadn't sat waiting for that call, they had everything ready to go weeks in advance. The moment the call came, bam off they go. Those that come on the tv complaining they are not ready or have not had sufficient notice, arrrghhhhh. Why advertise your own ineptitude?


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It bemuses me with some companies / authorities etc. What have they been doing for the last 8+ weeks? Have the owners, managers etc just been sat in their gardens reading all day? From day one any decent organisation would have had a range of plans in their heads. As things changed they may have amended them slightly  but it was pretty clear what was needed in order to re-open. Blimey, Newcastle Race course ran a meeting with a few days notice. They hadn't sat waiting for that call, they had everything ready to go weeks in advance. The moment the call came, bam off they go. Those that come on the tv complaining they are not ready or have not had sufficient notice, arrrghhhhh. Why advertise your own ineptitude?
		
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Because it all fits the narrative of 'the government did not tell me what to do, provide me with what I need, issue detailed guidelines in time etc and so must be getting it wrong'. Not saying that they are getting everything right, far from it, but there is now an increase section of society who wants to blame their own lack of foresight and preparation on the government. What gets me more is the governing bodies that are also, apparently, totally in the dark about things. They should be discussing preparations and plans with the government and civil service daily almost and, in fact, should have already drawn up proposals themselves after consultation with their members. Trade bodies should be telling the government what they plan to do and how and the government should then be approving these proposals.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I haven't meet you but I know more about your family and their personal circumstances than anyone else on here, and some of it was IMO very personal.

I think its a pretty strange person who would rather come on the internet for advise on some very important matters ranging from the current crises, benefit advise and tax returns rather than go to official sites for the information.  Maybe its just me and if its I can only apologise.
		
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No problems.  I think that you'll find that neither I nor any in my family have had any particular issues or misunderstandings on what was being allowed under the lockdown rules - we might have found some of the guidance inconsistent, and if we wanted to act confused then we could have done so, but we didn't and have adhered to all the rules pretty much 100% as far as I am aware. And indeed if we adhere to 'what was' then we know that we cannot breach 'what is' today.  So for instance Saturday we met 'socially-distanced' and outside with our daughter on her 25th birthday.  She wanted to give us a hug.  We said No - that has to wait. 

On stuff like self employed status, SA Tax Returns when mixed employed and Self-Employed, plus on claiming benefits - having never been self-employed and never claimed any benefit (other than child allowance back in the day), my feeling is that it is worthwhile seeking a bit of informed advice and getting a feeling for what to do and not to do before engaging with the DWP and HMRC.  Indeed the advice I got from a forummer was extremely helpful in that it guided me to what to do - and reduced my concerns on the complexity of what needed doing.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No problems.  I think that you'll find that neither I nor any in my family have had any particular issues or misunderstandings on what was being allowed under the lockdown rules - we might have found some of the guidance inconsistent but we have adhered to all the rules pretty much 100% as far as I am aware. And indeed if we adhere to 'what was' then we know that we cannot breach 'what is' today.

On stuff like self employed status, SA Tax Returns when mixed employed and Self-Employed, plus on claiming benefits - having never been self-employed and never claimed any benefit (other than child allowance back in the day), my feeling is that it is worthwhile seeking a bit of informed advice and getting a feeling for what to do and not to do before engaging with the DWP and HMRC.  Indeed the advice I got from a forummer was extremely helpful in that it guided me to what to do - and reduced my concerns on the complexity of what needed doing.
		
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There’s nothing wrong with asking for real life experience of these things.
Sometimes government websites should come with interpretation into plain English.
Bit of a harsh criticism imo.
It’s what forums are for.


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## larmen (Jun 3, 2020)

Ibuprofen is now being trialed as the solution? HAven't we been told at the beginning that it is making it worse? That's why paracetamol was hard to get.
And I hope people don't self medicate with massive amounts of it because it can lead to kidney problems. An ibuprofen here or there when in pain is OK, but continued use only with doctors input.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 3, 2020)

larmen said:



			Ibuprofen is now being trialed as the solution? HAven't we been told at the beginning that it is making it worse? That's why paracetamol was hard to get.
And I hope people don't self medicate with massive amounts of it because it can lead to kidney problems. An ibuprofen here or there when in pain is OK, but continued use only with doctors input.
		
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Sorry, I’m confused, Ibuprofen and paracetemol are different aren’t they?


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## Kellfire (Jun 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry, I’m confused, Ibuprofen and paracetemol are different aren’t they?
		
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Yes, that’s why people turned so much to paracetamol when ibuprofen use was discouraged.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2020)

larmen said:



			Ibuprofen is now being trialed as the solution? HAven't we been told at the beginning that it is making it worse? That's why paracetamol was hard to get.
And I hope people don't self medicate with massive amounts of it because it can lead to kidney problems. An ibuprofen here or there when in pain is OK, but continued use only with doctors input.
		
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Do I need to take ibuprofen now instead of injecting myself with bleach? This is so confusing.


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## IanM (Jun 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Do I need to take ibuprofen now instead of injecting myself with bleach? This is so confusing.
		
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Lord Denning had a term for that sort of confusion...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Because it all fits the narrative of 'the government did not tell me what to do, provide me with what I need, issue detailed guidelines in time etc and so must be getting it wrong'. Not saying that they are getting everything right, far from it, but there is now an increase section of society who wants to blame their own lack of foresight and preparation on the government. *What gets me more is the governing bodies that are also, apparently, totally in the dark about things. They should be discussing preparations and plans with the government and civil service daily almost and, in fact, should have already drawn up proposals themselves after consultation with their members. Trade bodies should be telling the government what they plan to do and how and the government should then be approving these proposals.*

Click to expand...

Some of them definitely are. I know hairdressers and cinemas have put forward proposals for instance. If others have not then I totally agree, they are muppets.


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## larmen (Jun 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Do I need to take ibuprofen now instead of injecting myself with bleach? This is so confusing.
		
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No, people dumb enough to inject bleach need to be removed from the gene pool.


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Some of them definitely are. I know hairdressers and cinemas have put forward proposals for instance. If others have not then I totally agree, they are muppets.
		
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Agreed. As it is summer, I am not sure why mobile hairdressers cannot operate outdoors with masks in place, surely safer than when everyone charges down to the barber on opening day. If you cannot guess, I really, really need a haircut.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 3, 2020)

larmen said:



			Ibuprofen is now being trialed as the solution? HAven't we been told at the beginning that it is making it worse? That's why paracetamol was hard to get.
And I hope people don't self medicate with massive amounts of it because it can lead to kidney problems. *An ibuprofen here or there when in pain is OK,* but continued use only with doctors input.
		
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Depends what else you are on; if Ibruprofen is the cure, I'm up  creek without a paddle.


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## larmen (Jun 3, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Depends what else you are on; if Ibruprofen is the cure, I'm up  creek without a paddle.
		
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Me too. My renal consultant doesn't want me to even sniff at it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 3, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yes, that’s why people turned so much to paracetamol when ibuprofen use was discouraged.
		
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Will panic buying start then.?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agreed. As it is summer, I am not sure why mobile hairdressers cannot operate outdoors with masks in place, surely safer than when everyone charges down to the barber on opening day. If you cannot guess, I really, really need a haircut.
		
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SD still applies in your garden.
What about terrace houses they would have to go through your house, unless they used the back entrance up the entry.
But it’s difficult to cut hair from 2 mts.
They could be in 10 houses a day , that’s not safe yet.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2020)

larmen said:



			No, people dumb enough to inject bleach need to be removed from the gene pool.
		
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If you elect a clown expect a circus.
Not only applicable to the USA


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			SD still applies in your garden.
What about terrace houses they would have to go through your house, unless they used the back entrance up the entry.
But it’s difficult to cut hair from 2 mts.
They could be in 10 houses a day , that’s not safe yet.
		
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A fair point but, I suspect, in a few weeks the barber shops will be open. Most barbers near me have no booking system, just queuing, and being inside is less safe than being outside. The social distancing element is not going to change unless you are suggesting that barber shops do not open until there is a vaccine or effective treatment. What you would have is the opportunity to phase barbers back in in what is a safer environment whilst also relieving a some of the risk and stress that could be associated with the shops opening and thousands of people rush to try and get a hair cut.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			A fair point but, I suspect, in a few weeks the barber shops will be open. Most barbers near me have no booking system, just queuing, and being inside is less safe than being outside. The social distancing element is not going to change unless you are suggesting that barber shops do not open until there is a vaccine or effective treatment. What you would have is the opportunity to phase barbers back in in what is a safer environment whilst also relieving a some of the risk and stress that could be associated with the shops opening and thousands of people rush to try and get a hair cut.
		
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Yes I was just thinking it should be compulsory for everyone to have a number 3.
Trimmer from Argos. £20.
Hair and beauty salons are the last things that will open .
Maybe a barber could set up in the local park, PPE and SD in the que would be good .
Payment on phone just a thought.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I was just thinking *it should be compulsory for everyone to have a number 3*.
Trimmer from Argos. £20.
Hair and beauty salons are the last things that will open .
Maybe a barber could set up in the local park, PPE and SD in the que would be good .
Payment on phone just a thought.
		
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I'd run for PM with that as top of my manifesto!


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I was just thinking it should be compulsory for everyone to have a number 3.
Trimmer from Argos. £20.
Hair and beauty salons are the last things that will open .
Maybe a barber could set up in the local park, PPE and SD in the que would be good .
Payment on phone just a thought.
		
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I actually think that women's hairdressers have a better chance of opening early than men. They work by appointment only mainly, they are far less crowded than barbers and many are already well spaced out between chairs. Once you address how to deal with the inevitable contact within 2m, they actually have the rest pretty sorted.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I actually think that women's hairdressers have a better chance of opening early than men. They work by appointment only mainly, they are far less crowded than barbers and many are already well spaced out between chairs. Once you address how to deal with the inevitable contact within 2m, they actually have the rest pretty sorted.
		
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Agree but I think in the near future everything will be appointment only .
It makes sense.
It will be just like the doctors though , even with an appointment you will still wait 20/30 mins.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 3, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'd run for PM with that as top of my manifesto!
		
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Don’t think any ladies I know would vote for that.
Or are we talking men only #3 .?
Women Bowl cut.?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Don’t think any ladies I know would vote for that.
Or are we talking men only #3 .?
Women Bowl cut.?
		
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I can't be doing with the hair faff BUT I do have really good hair! If everyone went with a Sinead O'Connor then it would be the norm and those of us without the beauty to carry it off (moi!) wouldn't stand out!!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 3, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I can't be doing with the hair faff BUT I do have really good hair! If everyone went with a Sinead O'Connor then it would be the norm and those of us without the beauty to carry it off (moi!) wouldn't stand out!!
		
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I am sure that’s not true.
To many people I know have a Disney mirror that tells them “they are the fairest in the land”
I am #3 and it’s staying like that.


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## larmen (Jun 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Hair and beauty salons are the last things that will open
		
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Is that why they said the divorce rates might go up in lockdown?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I am sure that’s not true.
To many people I know have a Disney mirror that tells them “they are the fairest in the land”
I am #3 and it’s staying like that.
		
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I avoid mirrors and then catch sight of myself and do a double take  I have the Jackson nose which I used to hate but have grown to love. My Dad used to say it was a ski slope for ants!! Thanks Dad 

I'd love to just have the clippers run over my head every couple of weeks! I am long overdue a haircut (of course) so bought some curling thingies aiming for the Kate Humble tousled, sexy look. Used them once, on two bits of hair, 2 burnt fingers later and they were binned off!!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you elect a clown expect a circus.
Not only applicable to the USA 

Click to expand...

That's a bit harsh on Nicola!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I actually think that women's hairdressers have a better chance of opening early than men. They work by appointment only mainly, they are far less crowded than barbers and many are already well spaced out between chairs. Once you address how to deal with the inevitable contact within 2m, they actually have the rest pretty sorted.
		
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You clearly don't use the same barber as me.

Appointments only, two guys operating in the shop. One either side. 

SD won't be an issue.


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## azazel (Jun 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You clearly don't use the same barber as me.

Appointments only, two guys operating in the shop. One either side.

SD won't be an issue.
		
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Are they using 2M long scissors?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 3, 2020)

Never mind getting my hair cut...
I am just in need of 'something for the weekend' ...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Never mind getting my hair cut...
I am just in need of 'something for the weekend' ...
		
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No chance with hair like that 😀


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 3, 2020)

azazel said:



			Are they using 2M long scissors?
		
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No, just 2m long hair.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No chance with hair like that 😀
		
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I've allowed my hair to grow out for the full on Adonis look ...
Sadly, however, nowadays it's the grey version of the look ...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			No, just 2m long hair.
		
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Sorted.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 3, 2020)

Ooops


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268209372074819585


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## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agreed. As it is summer, I am not sure why mobile hairdressers cannot operate outdoors with masks in place, surely safer than when everyone charges down to the barber on opening day. If you cannot guess, I really, really need a haircut.
		
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Sheep shearer operating in the fields around here, get in the queue.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I actually think that women's hairdressers have a better chance of opening early than men. They work by appointment only mainly, they are far less crowded than barbers and many are already well spaced out between chairs. Once you address how to deal with the inevitable contact within 2m, they actually have the rest pretty sorted.
		
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I don't think it will be long before social distancing will be replaced with social distance unless everyone wears a mask then can get closer.

Would allow safer public transport and if say a hairdresser gave their client a mask and wore one themsleves that would work


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Sheep shearer operating in the fields around here, get in the queue.
		
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Oh sorry, Shearer.  Though you said something else...


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## DRW (Jun 4, 2020)

Seems Spain are going china figures.

Wonder why their death figures have dropped off a cliff and appear to be under reported as well from news reports.


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## Beezerk (Jun 4, 2020)

DRW said:



			Seems Spain are going china figures.

Wonder why their death figures have dropped off a cliff and appear to be under reported as well from news reports.
		
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I heard some expert on the radio this morning, he said Spain have change how they report deaths so it artificially looks like there are zero Covid deaths.
The details of how they changed it though I'm not sure about.


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## patricks148 (Jun 4, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Ooops


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268209372074819585

Click to expand...

not really Opps is it, he;s posted he;s doing it,  not like he's lied and tried to cover it up


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not really Opps is it, he;s posted he;s doing it,  not like he's lied and tried to cover it up

Click to expand...

So if the breach of the guidelines is brazen and open it's OK ?

No wonder folks are confused.


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## patricks148 (Jun 4, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So if the breach of the guidelines is brazen and open it's OK ?

No wonder folks are confused.
		
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where did i say it was OK?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			where did i say it was OK?
		
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If it isn't Oops! then are you not saying it's OK?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 4, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I heard some expert on the radio this morning, he said Spain have change how they report deaths so it artificially looks like there are zero Covid deaths.
The details of how they changed it though I'm not sure about.
		
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My sister lives in Spain and a couple of weeks back shared the reporting of deaths and they seemed to lose 600 in a week...as in reported 600 less than the week before!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 4, 2020)

Why would they change the way they count the deaths?
It seems a bit cynical to get the tourist trade going again.


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## GB72 (Jun 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Why would they change the way they count the deaths?
It seems a bit cynical to get the tourist trade going again.
		
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This is one thing that I would like to know more about, how the various countries are recording these figures. Are they in all environments, are they recording the death as Covid related if there is a positive test or only if it can be proved to be the cause of death. The figures used in the UK do appear to be some of the most wide reaching in that we are reporting all environments and if there is only a positive test result but then this is being used as a comparative (despite many attempts by the scientists to explain why this is not a correct comparison) and then being used in the media to assess how the government are performing, whether we should be easing lockdown provisions (or tightening them) etc. Really a global (or at least european) standard should have been put in place so as the impact of certain measures could be assessed by comparing like for like results. 

Not saying it is any way true but would it be such a massive leap to think that a government would change the reporting method in order to allow the more rapid opening of a country's major industry or governments setting more stringent requirements before covid is listed on a death certificate to show a better 'performance' against other countries or to expedite the restarting of economic activity. The cynic in me thinks not.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 4, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is one thing that I would like to know more about, how the various countries are recording these figures. Are they in all environments, are they recording the death as Covid related if there is a positive test or only if it can be proved to be the cause of death. The figures used in the UK do appear to be some of the most wide reaching in that we are reporting all environments and if there is only a positive test result but then this is being used as a comparative (despite many attempts by the scientists to explain why this is not a correct comparison) and then being used in the media to assess how the government are performing, whether we should be easing lockdown provisions (or tightening them) etc. Really a global (or at least european) standard should have been put in place so as the impact of certain measures could be assessed by comparing like for like results.

Not saying it is any way true but would it be such a massive leap to think that a government would change the reporting method in order to allow the more rapid opening of a country's major industry or governments setting more stringent requirements before covid is listed on a death certificate to show a better 'performance' against other countries or to expedite the restarting of economic activity. The cynic in me thinks not.
		
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I would say that if the death rate changed 600 in one week there is a black and white answer .
But are they going to tell us what it is?
Tourism is one of their economic big industries, so I am a bit more suspicious than you!


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would say that if the death rate changed 600 in one week there is a black and white answer .
But are they going to tell us what it is?
Tourism is one of their economic big industries, so I am a bit more suspicious than you!
		
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The world of international politics and statistics: look hard for the truth.



What I am interested in is how the UK is doing and the welfare of the population. 

There is little point in the rates overseas, other than to learn lessons. It's also pointless whinging about testing data. Testing doesn't cure the poorly, many had more than one test so dissecting the data by the media or public tells us the sum total of beggar all. 

Unfortunately the curve is flattening off and I reckon the tail will be reflecting a slowing number of fatalities for a good few months yet. Mathematically I'd say infections will still be running at a significant level through until September.


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## backwoodsman (Jun 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I was just thinking it should be compulsory for everyone to have a number 3.
Trimmer from Argos. £20.
*Hair and beauty salons are the last things that will open .*
Maybe a barber could set up in the local park, PPE and SD in the que would be good .
Payment on phone just a thought.
		
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Not so sure about that.  According to a poster in the window the place just round the corner  from me is alreay open - "... by appointment, and for beauty treatments only ..." 
(Don't ask - I don't know ... )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2020)

So I get onto the London Euston train at Glasgow Central - and as the train crosses the border the guard calls out 'Masks Oan - and I'm now coming through the train to check youse all - and if you're no wearing wan I'll...erm...throw you off at Carlisle...'  Loving it.  Good British Common Sense will, I am sure, prevail - one way or another.


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## chrisd (Jun 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So I get onto the London Euston train at Glasgow Central - and as the train crosses the border the guard calls out 'Masks Oan - and I'm now coming through the train to check youse have all - and if you're no wearing wan I'll...erm...throw you off at Carlisle...'  Loving it.
		
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Are you deliberately being obtuse Hugh?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So I get onto the London Euston train at Glasgow Central - and as the train crosses the border the guard calls out 'Masks Oan - and I'm now coming through the train to check youse all - and if you're no wearing wan I'll...erm...throw you off at Carlisle...'  Loving it.  Good British Common Sense will, I am sure, prevail - one way or another.
		
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It's okay, you won't be thrown off, you will be fined 👍. Should the UK govt have waited for the Scottish govt to make this move and then follow? Can it not work the other way around? Does NS always have to announce first?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So I get onto the London Euston train at Glasgow Central - and as the train crosses the border the guard calls out 'Masks Oan - and I'm now coming through the train to check youse all - and if you're no wearing wan I'll...erm...throw you off at Carlisle...'  Loving it.  Good British Common Sense will, I am sure, prevail - one way or another.
		
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It's just a pity that Sturgeon has so little common sense.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Are you deliberately being obtuse Hugh?
		
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As always


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## pauljames87 (Jun 4, 2020)

Glad to read face covering will be mandatory on public transport from 15th June

About time


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Glad to read face covering will be mandatory on public transport from 15th June

About time
		
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I'm not totally sure if this is allowed, but if anyone wants or needs some then this is the link to Mrs Colch's Facebook page where she is making the fabric masks......

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Loco-Lous-580528925707027/posts/?ref=page_internal 

They're £3 each or two for £5 and 50% of all sales is being donated to PACT Animal Sanctuary.

https://www.pactsanctuary.org/

(EDIT - I have reported this post to the Mods myself to ask them to remove it if it breaks any forum rules).


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Glad to read face covering will be mandatory on public transport from 15th June

About time
		
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Totally agree. Work have been really good for the few of us that commute by train/bus and supplied face masks. I'm lucky enough to get a lift in each morning so only need one for the home trip.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 4, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Totally agree. Work have been really good for the few of us that commute by train/bus and supplied face masks. I'm lucky enough to get a lift in each morning so only need one for the home trip.
		
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Social distancing on the tube is almost impossible, least with masks should remove the need to social distance so strictly traveling. Get the economy moving


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Social distancing on the tube is almost impossible, least with masks should remove the need to social distance so strictly traveling. Get the economy moving
		
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Totally agree. Been very lucky on my commute home and the SWT service I get is dead at the moment and I've had carriages to myself at times or one other person at the other end. I've worn the mask more for a sense of preservation rather than to conform (although clearly this changes on the 15th). We were all risk assessed recently and those that travelled by necessity on public transport usually came out at moderate risks (including other aspects like existing conditions, gender (male scoring higher than female) and age. As a result our technicians were told to order extra masks to cover the staff


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2020)

Much as I hate directing traffic to the Daily Mail I made an exception to help some some types believe it as it is in the Daily Mail, not the communist Guardian.  I mean it's not great is it whatever paper you read it in and dare I say it makes our government look a bit incompetent?  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8387971/Britain-announces-coronavirus-deaths.html


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## larmen (Jun 4, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not totally sure if this is allowed, but if anyone wants or needs some then this is the link to Mrs Colch's Facebook page where she is making the fabric masks......

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Loco-Lous-580528925707027/posts/?ref=page_internal

They're £3 each or two for £5 and 50% of all sales is being donated to PACT Animal Sanctuary.

https://www.pactsanctuary.org/

(EDIT - I have reported this post to the Mods myself to ask them to remove it if it breaks any forum rules).
		
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I am not sure how to follow this through to your wife's shop. There seem to be other things there when clicking on the shop now button, and when looking for mask you get other sellers.


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So I get onto the London Euston train at Glasgow Central - and as the train crosses the border the guard calls out 'Masks Oan - and I'm now coming through the train to check youse all - and if you're no wearing wan I'll...erm...throw you off at Carlisle...'  Loving it.  Good British Common Sense will, I am sure, prevail - one way or another.
		
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Your not likely to go so don't worry about it. Very few Scots go back north. Stop being silly. It's no wonder I thought you were DfT


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Much as I hate directing traffic to the Daily Mail I made an exception to help some some types believe it as it is in the Daily Mail, not the communist Guardian.  I mean it's not great is it whatever paper you read it in and dare I say it makes our government look a bit incompetent?  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8387971/Britain-announces-coronavirus-deaths.html

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Why is it assumed that each country was starting from the same point?
I am pretty sure that it was said some time ago that the virus manifested itself differently in  terms of strength and numbers in various countries. 
That is not to say that our dealing with it does not compare well with some other nations but, if true,  it would suggest that these sorts of league tables are futile other than providing cheap ammunition for the media.


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## GB72 (Jun 4, 2020)

Was reading an article that Spain moved to only including deaths reported in the last 24 hours and hence the drop of 600 or so in one day. Under that system of reporting the UK would have been looking at 20 or less per day. Just shows the issue with comparisons


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Why is it assumed that each country was starting from the same point?
I am pretty sure that it was said some time ago *that the virus manifested itself differently in  terms of strength and numbers in various countries.*
That is not to say that our dealing with it does not compare well with some other nations but, if true,  it would suggest that these sorts of league tables are futile other than providing cheap ammunition for the media.
		
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So does government incompetence.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So does government incompetence.
		
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Any chance you could explain the point of that post as I certainly haven't suggested that the Government may not have been incompetent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			As always 

Click to expand...

Obtuse?  As always?  Simply making a light-hearted observation on a factually accurate state of affairs and what 'might' happen if the rule for England is enforceable...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your not likely to go so don't worry about it. Very few Scots go back north. Stop being silly. It's no wonder I thought you were DfT
		
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yeh - I was being serious - right...


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## Billysboots (Jun 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Much as I hate directing traffic to the Daily Mail I made an exception to help some some types believe it as it is in the Daily Mail, not the communist Guardian.  I mean it's not great is it whatever paper you read it in and dare I say it makes our government look a bit incompetent?  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8387971/Britain-announces-coronavirus-deaths.html

Click to expand...

The Mail, more than most, seem to be delighting in putting a negative spin on absolutely everything. Our deaths will at some point be in double digits daily, then single, and they will still find reason to spread doom and gloom.

Comparing the U.K. figures to anyone else is utterly meaningless unless every country is counting deaths in exactly the same way. I don’t doubt we are understating ours, but nowhere near as wildly as some countries.

I will be staggered if, for example, Germany’s figures are an accurate reflection of what is happening there. And the less said about China and Russia, the better. And in common with others, I simply refuse to believe the sudden eradication of deaths in Spain.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2020)

larmen said:



			I am not sure how to follow this through to your wife's shop. There seem to be other things there when clicking on the shop now button, and when looking for mask you get other sellers.
		
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She doesn't have a shop and sells directly through her Facebook page. If you send a message to her page one of us will reply to the message.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The Mail, more than most, seem to be delighting in putting a negative spin on absolutely everything. Our deaths will at some point be in double digits daily, then single, and they will still find reason to spread doom and gloom.

Comparing the U.K. figures to anyone else is utterly meaningless unless every country is counting deaths in exactly the same way. I don’t doubt we are understating ours, but nowhere near as wildly as some countries.

I will be staggered if, for example, Germany’s figures are an accurate reflection of what is happening there. And the less said about China and Russia, the better. And in common with others, I simply refuse to believe the sudden eradication of deaths in Spain.
		
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Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not. 
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid. 
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not.
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid.
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.
		
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Actually Johnson's hero is Sir Winston Churchill as he has made plain on innumerable occasions.


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## drdel (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not. 
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid. 
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.
		
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And you know for a fact these are falsehoods.


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## GB72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not.
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid.
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.
		
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I am not of the opinion that I have been fooled by anything but rather that I am digging as deeper to get an understanding of what is going on. I am not a cheerleader for the government but what I am is someone who is becoming frustrated about the way that this is being reported. It does not take much digging to find that there are signs of the manipulation of figures and my gut feeling is that actually ours are more accurate of reflection of the position than most of Europe. I wish I had saved the article I read over the last couple of days about the Spanish figures. It was along the lines of a change so as they were only reporting deaths that had occurred and been reported in the last 24 hours in the daily figures. Apparently under that system, the UK would be reporting less than 20 deaths a day. Spain then issues a separate report at the end of the week to clear up those that were not included in the daily figures but this report is so far removed from any used anywhere else that it cannot be compared. As mentioned a number of times on here, there are also disparities between the way that is decided if someone passing is caused by covid. Germany, for example, only include deaths in the figures if that is the definitive cause whereas we record it if someone who dies tests positive, whether that was the cause or not. You could also look at testing demographics for recovery rates etc. 

I agree that the hyperbole about 'world beating' needs to be toned down but so does the rhetoric about our figures being so much worse than anyone in Europe when the comparison simply does not make sense and actually shows nothing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			And you know for a fact these are falsehoods.
		
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Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately


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## Billysboots (Jun 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			my gut feeling is that actually ours are more accurate of reflection of the position than most of Europe.
		
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Totally agree.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately
		
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Id say from my viewings we are at a 50/50 split in wearers right now 

The delay allows for people to make or buy some. I can imagine supplies will be hard to get at first 

Gives people warning to adapt before you will get a fine 

I'd say by the 10th you will see a 80/20 split .. most adopt once they know is coming.


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## GB72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately
		
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I am guessing because the majority of shops only open on 15th June and that will also trigger a more significant increase in public transfer use. Also gives people 10 days to get masks, face coverings etc. I can see the outcry if people were suddenly told they would be fined or refused transport for not having a face covering at only 24 hours notice. Plus, of course, many places selling them are online order only so that takes time to deliver and there are few places you can walk in and buy what you need until 15th and even then there would be the irony that you could not take public transport to go and buy the face covering you need to go on public transport.


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## Slab (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

*PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England*.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately
		
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GB72 said:



*I am guessing because the majority of shops only open on 15th June* and that will also trigger a more significant increase in public transfer use. Also gives people 10 days to get masks, face coverings etc. I can see the outcry if people were suddenly told they would be fined or refused transport for not having a face covering at only 24 hours notice. Plus, of course, many places selling them are online order only so that takes time to deliver and there are few places you can walk in and buy what you need until 15th and even then there would be the irony that you could not take public transport to go and buy the face covering you need to go on public transport.
		
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Has this changed now? I read that the wearing of face masks was for public transport


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## GB72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Slab said:



			Has this changed now? I read that the wearing of face masks was for public transport
		
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Nope, still only public transport though advisable to do so in shops. My point was that the opening of shops will trigger a bigger increase in the use of public transport by both shoppers and workers and so more need for face coverings on more packed buses and tubes.


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## Slab (Jun 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Nope, still only public transport though advisable to do so in shops. My point was that the opening of shops will trigger a bigger increase in the use of public transport by both shoppers and workers and so more need for face coverings on more packed buses and tubes.
		
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Ah ok, I think it should be extended to shops too, in fact any public space & it should have been done many weeks ago. The day a government locks down its society is the day that the wearing of face masks should be made compulsory in public (doing the former without the latter is kinda self-defeating)


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## drdel (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately
		
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You are the one making negative assertions. 

The advice is still to stay at home and work from home. If you got to work try NOT to use public transport. If you use PT you will need to wear face covering because the 2m rule is very hard to maintain. 
When normal shops open it may then be wise to use face coverings but not yet. 

The social distancing and stay at home as much as possible is still the main way to reduce infections and will be for several more months


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## GB72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Slab said:



			Ah ok, I think it should be extended to shops too, in fact any public space & it should have been done many weeks ago. The day a government locks down its society is the day that the wearing of face masks should be made compulsory in public (doing the former without the latter is kinda self-defeating)
		
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I sort of get the reasoning behind not doing it initially. When you give people any form of protection like a mask, they do not know how to use it properly, believe it protects them rather than being there to protect others, and social distancing goes out the window as people think that they are now bullet proof. I used the analogy in an earlier post about rugby players wearing padding. The idea was to prevent injury but at first injuries increased as players took more risks as they thought they were protected. 

Now I agree that they should be compulsory in indoor public spaces and those outdoors where social distancing cannot be applied. As a nation we have proved ourselves inherently incapable over the last few weeks of following arrows around supermarkets (though our generations of queuing skills have really shone through) and so masks make sense.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

I understand that when Germany started to relax restrictions and allow small shops and restaurants to open, two things were (maybe still are) required of anyone entering 1) you have to clean your hands using anti-bacterial gel provided by the shop/restaurant and 2) complete a form giving your name and contact details (plus time going in?).  The first measure is aimed at keeping things as 'virus-free' in the shop/restaurant as possible; the second is to support contact tracing for anyone tested positive who identified the shop or restaurant as somewhere they've been.  The shop/restaurant can then provide details of everyone who might have been in the shop/rest at the same time as the infected.  

Now I don't know if these were measures mandated by the authorities to allow shops/restaurants to open, or just measures voluntarily adopted - but they are simple and seem to make sense - and they don't rely on technology... I haven't heard of any such measures being suggested or proposed for when we open up small shops and restaurants?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I understand that when Germany started to relax restrictions and allow small shops and restaurants to open, two things were (maybe still are) required of anyone entering 1) you have to clean your hands using anti-bacterial gel provided by the shop/restaurant and 2) complete a form giving your name and contact details (plus time going in?).  The first measure is aimed at keeping things as 'virus-free' in the shop/restaurant as possible; the second is to support contact tracing for anyone tested positive who identified the shop or restaurant as somewhere they've been.  The shop/restaurant can then provide details of everyone who might have been in the shop/rest at the same time as the infected. 

Now I don't know if these were measures mandated by the authorities to allow shops/restaurants to open, or just measures voluntarily adopted - but they are simple and seem to make sense - and they don't rely on technology... I haven't heard of any such measures being suggested or proposed for when we open up small shops and restaurants?
		
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Down to each state to set those rules. They were not voluntary. Quite an administrative burden on each site but it did enable them to get going.


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## pendodave (Jun 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Nope, still only public transport though advisable to do so in shops. My point was that the opening of shops will trigger a bigger increase in the use of public transport by both shoppers and workers and so more need for face coverings on more packed buses and tubes.
		
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This is my understanding as well.
Fwiw, i've travelled (and worked) on public transport throughout the lockdown and have barely been within 20m of another person, let alone 2m. In contrast to most shopping expeditions. So I'm not sure that any particular opportunity has been missed.
Hospitals and care homes seem the most significant source of new infections according to the Telegraph and my own (extraordinarily small sample size) personal experience. I'm  not sure which of those two is the least reliable...


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## larmen (Jun 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Down to each state to set those rules. They were not voluntary. Quite an administrative burden on each site but it did enable them to get going.
		
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I still wouldn’t go to a restaurant.
Someone you don’t know touched your food, your plate, your cutlery, ... .
They also came in contact with other customers before you that you don’t know.
And there is the restroom thing. Maybe not so bad for men, but still.
I think going out is the last thing that I will introduce again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			You are the one making negative assertions.

The advice is still to stay at home and work from home. If you got to work try NOT to use public transport. If you use PT you will need to wear face covering because the 2m rule is very hard to maintain.
When normal shops open it may then be wise to use face coverings but not yet.

The social distancing and stay at home as much as possible is still the main way to reduce infections and will be for several more months
		
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I am curious to know why you think it is not wise to wear a mask now, but wise to wear one in two to three weeks time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I sort of get the reasoning behind not doing it initially. When you give people any form of protection like a mask, they do not know how to use it properly, believe it protects them rather than being there to protect others, and social distancing goes out the window as people think that they are now bullet proof. I used the analogy in an earlier post about rugby players wearing padding. The idea was to prevent injury but at first injuries increased as players took more risks as they thought they were protected.

Now I agree that they should be compulsory in indoor public spaces and those outdoors where social distancing cannot be applied. As a nation we have proved ourselves inherently incapable over the last few weeks of following arrows around supermarkets (though our generations of queuing skills have really shone through) and so masks make sense.
		
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The reason they did not do it immediately was to protect supplies to the NHS workers because of those desperate shortages of PPE


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am curious to know why you think it is not wise to wear a mask now, but wise to wear one in two to three weeks time.

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NOBODY is saying it's not wise to wear a mask now. We are saying if you are going to start finding people for not having masks you need to give them time to get them.

Like I said by next week most will be wearing .. then week after it becomes enforceable


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## GB72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The reason they did not do it immediately was to protect supplies to the NHS workers because of those desperate shortages of PPE
		
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Not sure that is 100% of the reason bearing in mind that the requirement is a face covering not a surgical mask but who knows.  Not being privy to the discussions it is all hypothesis and supposition but then again, why take masks away from the NHS when people were not meant to be leaving the house except for essentials anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Down to each state to set those rules. They were not voluntary. Quite an administrative burden on each site but it did enable them to get going.
		
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That's what I was thinking.  In fact you could have a load of your own forms filled out with your contact details,  and you just fill out the name of the shop/restaurant you are going in to and the time you go in.  Yes - the shops have to hold on to a load of paperwork - though they could just scan them every day - or scan the forms as they went along.  

Maybe in time we'll all have a card or app on our phones - and every time we go in anywhere we 'tap-in' and when we leave we 'tap-out'. Just musing.


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## drdel (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am curious to know why you think it is not wise to wear a mask now, but wise to wear one in two to three weeks time.

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Nowhere did I say it was unwise. Specsavers😏😏


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## MegaSteve (Jun 5, 2020)

Wearing masks, or not, it's gonna be some while before we resume using public transport... 
When we've seen buses, in these parts, they've had less than a handful on board...
Normally, in the daytime, they are full of 'freeloaders' like us ...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			Nowhere did I say it was unwise. Specsavers😏😏
		
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Depends how you read your 3rd sentence...........'when normal shops open it would be wise to wear face coverings but not now.' .


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Wearing masks, or not, it's gonna be some while before we resume using public transport...
When we've seen buses, in these parts, they've had less than a handful on board...
Normally, in the daytime, they are full of 'freeloaders' like us ...
		
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Our rural service buses are all running empty, well the ones I see are.
Try to close them and watch the fireworks start.
[Like the libraries, swimming pools and golf courses.]


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The reason they did not do it immediately was to protect supplies to the NHS workers because of those desperate shortages of PPE
		
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This is no dought true.
Can’t help thinking though if they had made face covering on public transport mandatory straight away there would have been a lot less cases for the NHS to deal with.
And lockdown might have been shorter.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Isn’t that why we have “experts” though?


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## rulefan (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's what I was thinking.  In fact you could have a load of your own forms filled out with your contact details,  and you just fill out the name of the shop/restaurant you are going in to and the time you go in.  Yes - the shops have to hold on to a load of paperwork - though they could just scan them every day - or scan the forms as they went along. 

Maybe in time we'll all have a card or app on our phones - and every time we go in anywhere we 'tap-in' and when we leave we 'tap-out'. Just musing.
		
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The problem with paperwork is that people have to handle it unless we all wear gloves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The problem with paperwork is that people have to handle it unless we all wear gloves.
		
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This is true.  But clearly some German states have a way to manage it.  As there is anti-bacterial gel at the entrance to the shops that shoppers must use - shoppers clean their hands before entering the shop and then fill up the form the shop provides.  A member of shop staff then scans each form using a mobile phone, iPad etc app.  If you are not happy about having to fill out a form and having it scanned, then you don't get to go into the shop.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's what I was thinking.  In fact you could have a load of your own forms filled out with your contact details,  and you just fill out the name of the shop/restaurant you are going in to and the time you go in.  Yes - the shops have to hold on to a load of paperwork - though they could just scan them every day - or scan the forms as they went along. 

*Maybe in time we'll all have a card or app on our phones - and every time we go in anywhere we 'tap-in' and when we leave we 'tap-out'. Just musing.*

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Was there a sarcasm emoji intended?
Somewhat like the Aussie App or th IoW App?😳
Both would have (do) the necessary,but  *most people *need to have a smartphone and of those that do, they have to agree to use it, or/and effectively use it.
Don't know what happened in Aussie, but AFAIK the I oW  one has failed to be rolled out.

You can imagine our lot being disciplined enough to fill in forms when they eat out!!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's what I was thinking.  In fact you could have a load of your own forms filled out with your contact details,  and you just fill out the name of the shop/restaurant you are going in to and the time you go in.  Yes - the shops have to hold on to a load of paperwork - though they could just scan them every day - or scan the forms as they went along. 

Maybe in time we'll all have a card or app on our phones - and every time we go in anywhere we 'tap-in' and when we leave we 'tap-out'. Just musing.
		
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Electronic identity cards!
Some civil liberties people won’t like that.
I would have one sounds a good idea.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Was there a sarcasm emoji intended?
Somewhat *like the Aussie App or th IoW App?*😳
Both would have (do) the necessary,but  *most people *need to have a smartphone and of those that do, they have to agree to use it, or/and effectively use it.
Don't know what happened in Aussie, but AFAIK the I oW  one has failed to be rolled out.

You can imagine our lot being disciplined enough to fill in forms when they eat out!!
		
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No - like Apple Pay, PIN free card payment, or an Oyster card.

But putting that aside.  On the manual form-filling scheme.  You clean your hands and fill out a form or you don't get into the shop or restaurant.  Indeed shops could have a notional 1p charge for entering the shop and you pay it by tapping your debit/credit card on entry - and that transaction is recorded.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

The Briefing.  The Matt Hancock One Man Show...?

What's happened to the experts or the CMO/CSO?  Is this supposed to build confidence in what the government is saying and doing - no experts to back up the strategy and measures...?  No experts to be asked questions?

Ah - experts.  Who needs them...when we've got Matt.  And I suppose he did fine - though would be good to know the science behind all NHS staff and visitors having to wear face masks when previously they didn't.  Or maybe we just have enough so we can do it.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jun 5, 2020)

America is using the street demonstrations as an excuse to pretend that covid19 has disappeared.
The street demonstrations are more than justified, but the pandemic hasn't gone anywhere.

Watch for the hospitalization numbers in a couple of weeks.
We'll be starting all over again.

Christ, people are dumb.  From my perspective, evolution should have replaced us by now.


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## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The reason they did not do it immediately was to protect supplies to the NHS workers because of those desperate shortages of PPE
		
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Absolute tosh


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Briefing.  The Matt Hancock One Man Show...?

What's happened to the experts or the CMO/CSO?  Is this supposed to build confidence in what the government is saying and doing - no experts to back up the strategy and measures...?  No experts to be asked questions?

Ah - experts.  Who needs them...when we've got Matt.  And I suppose he did fine - though would be good to know the science behind all NHS staff and visitors having to wear face masks when previously they didn't.  Or maybe we just have enough so we can do it.
		
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Sigh

Different day same moaning. If you really don't like those giving the briefings (and clearly they don't meet your political leanings) and don't like the information being given then don't watch. Alternatively get your news and information elsewhere (or does the BBC bias and political agenda not align with your views either)


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sigh

Different day same moaning. If you really don't like those giving the briefings (and clearly they don't meet your political leanings) and don't like the information being given then don't watch. Alternatively get your news and information elsewhere (or does the BBC bias and political agenda not align with your views either)
		
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So wrong on so many levels!


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## PNWokingham (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Briefing.  The Matt Hancock One Man Show...?

What's happened to the experts or the CMO/CSO?  Is this supposed to build confidence in what the government is saying and doing - no experts to back up the strategy and measures...?  No experts to be asked questions?

Ah - experts.  Who needs them...when we've got Matt.  And I suppose he did fine - though would be good to know the science behind all NHS staff and visitors having to wear face masks when previously they didn't.  Or maybe we just have enough so we can do it.
		
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That is pretty positive from you. They must be getting their act together


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So wrong on so many levels! 

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Not wrong in the least.

Homer is merely expressing what  many on here think.

The constant carping from SilH does beg the question, why does he keep watching and why does he feel the need to keep telling us all of his disapproval.

Three months in and his tone has never changed and I very much doubt that he has succeeded in altering anyone's opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sigh

Different day same moaning. If you really don't like those giving the briefings (and clearly they don't meet your political leanings) and don't like the information being given then don't watch. Alternatively get your news and information elsewhere (or does the BBC bias and political agenda not align with your views either)
		
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I have been hugely supportive and complementary about Hancock from Day #1 - I feel he has had to pretty much carry the load of explaining what's going on as many of his colleagues have been utterly useless.  In general I feel that he has done a pretty good job. But I feel he is being played a bit now by his boss and the spin-meister in chief because the messages are not that great and decisions are being made that are not completely science and health based - and I am afraid that I am losing a bit of faith in what he says.  

So with him today appearing without any experts of  course I wonder why?...So why the heck did they do it and make me wonder what they are up to?  Because that is exactly what happened today.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have been hugely supportive and complementary about Hancock from Day #1 - I feel he has had to pretty much carry the load of explaining what's going on as many of his colleagues have been utterly useless.  In general I feel that he has done a pretty good job. But I feel he is being played a bit now by his boss and the spin-meister in chief because the messages are not that great and decisions are being made that are not completely science and health based - and I am afraid that I am losing a bit of faith in what he says. 

So with him today appearing without any experts of  course I wonder why?...So why the heck did they do it and make me wonder what they are up to?  Because that is exactly what happened today.
		
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Just  maybe the decision was taken  on the basis of "If you have nothing worthwhile to say then shut up and sit down."

For a little while now it has been  clear that unless there has been some new practice or plan being implemented the independent medical experts have contributed increasingly less to the briefings.

This has much to do with the poor standard of many of the questions from the media.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Not wrong in the least.

Homer is merely expressing what  many on here think.

The constant carping from SilH does beg the question, why does he keep watching and why does he feel the need to keep telling us all of his disapproval.

Three months in and his tone has never changed and I very much doubt that he has succeeded in altering anyone's opinion.
		
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Have you never read ANY of the supportive comments I have made about Hancock in the briefings? 

I think that many (not all) of the ministers have been frankly pretty rubbish in the briefings - and I find it constantly tedious that any criticism or questioning of them or of what they say is jumped upon as if they are untouchable.  We know exactly why they are in the roles they are in - and it is not through their competency.  It is because they signed a pledge of total allegiance to Mr Empty Jacket Johnson - anyone who didn't was out or never in.  So let's not pretend that somehow this bunch is above criticism.  They are not.  But Hancock is still doing OK - just.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you never read ANY of the supportive comments I have made about Hancock in the briefings?

I think that many (not all) of the ministers have been frankly pretty rubbish in the briefings - and I find it constantly tedious that any criticism or questioning of them or of what they say is jumped upon as if they are untouchable.  We know exactly why they are in the roles they are in - and it is not through their competency.  It is because they signed a pledge of total allegiance to Mr Empty Jacket Johnson - anyone who didn't was out or never in.  So let's not pretend that somehow this bunch is above criticism.  They are not.  But Hancock is still doing OK - just.
		
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I'm sorry but I can't take your comments seriously whilst you persist with your juvenile name calling.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you never read ANY of the supportive comments I have made about Hancock in the briefings?

I think that many (not all) of the ministers have been frankly pretty rubbish in the briefings - and I find it constantly tedious that any criticism or questioning of them or of what they say is jumped upon as if they are untouchable.  We know exactly why they are in the roles they are in - and it is not through their competency.  It is because they signed a pledge of total allegiance to Mr Empty Jacket Johnson - anyone who didn't was out or never in.  So let's not pretend that somehow this bunch is above criticism.  They are not.  But Hancock is still doing OK - just.
		
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just think how good it could have been if a brainiak like mathematician Dianne Abbott or any of the superstars under red Jezza had been up there doing the briefings? Would Jeremy Corbyn have actrually been able to answer a questtion for the first time in his life?

One key thing about the past few months is that we have been experimenting and learning all tthe way through and there are often no definitives. This is not a case of follow the instruction manual


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Not wrong in the least.

Homer is merely expressing what  many on here think.

The constant carping from SilH does beg the question, why does he keep watching and why does he feel the need to keep telling us all of his disapproval.

Three months in and his tone has never changed and I very much doubt that he has succeeded in altering anyone's opinion.
		
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It may seem 'moaning' to you, but legitimate opinion to me - no different to your contra opinion/moaning, both of which you are entitled to! 

Why do you need to keep telling us about your disapproval of his disapproval!! That's a rhetorical question btw 

Either answer/refute the specific point(s) or admit (at least to yourself) that a point may have been made! That's far more 'honest', imo, than simply moaning about someone disapproving of specific events that may challenge one's political preference!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It may seem 'moaning' to you, but legitimate opinion to me - no different to your contra opinion/moaning, both of which you are entitled to!

Why do you need to keep telling us about your disapproval of his disapproval!! That's a rhetorical question btw

Either answer/refute the specific point(s) or admit (at least to yourself) that a point may have been made! That's far more 'honest', imo, than simply moaning about someone disapproving of specific events that may challenge one's political preference!
		
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Actually I believe that is the first time that I have commented on one of his posts although I may have been tempted. 

As for political preferences I genuinely have none.


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			...

As for political preferences I genuinely have none.
		
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So you are/claim to be politically apathetic - yet critical of someone who is distinctly NOT 'apathetic'!

As per my previous post, either challenge the point made; agree (at least to yourself) that a point was made; or ignore the comment (or maybe even the poster) entirely!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So you are/claim to be politically apathetic - yet critical of someone who is distinctly NOT 'apathetic'!

As per my previous post, either challenge the point made; agree (at least to yourself) that a point was made; or ignore the comment (or maybe even the poster) entirely!
		
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Can I ask when you were appointed as the arbiter of discussion on the forum or are you merely being pompous. 

And not having a committed political preference is a very long way from being  "politically apathetic".

In fact it is quite the reverse as I am questioning of all political points.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



*just think how good it could have been if a brainiak like mathematician Dianne Abbott or any of the superstars under red Jezza had been up there doing the briefings? Would Jeremy Corbyn have actrually been able to answer a questtion for the first time in his life?*

One key thing about the past few months is that we have been experimenting and learning all tthe way through and there are often no definitives. This is not a case of follow the instruction manual
		
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You’re better than this!

Plenty of tory politicians have made mistakes and over 40,000 people have died.

How about 50,000 under Labour to prove your point or 30,000 to make you look stupid!

How about we don’t play the what if game and simply support this Government through the crisis without pathetic political point scoring.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re better than this!

Plenty of tory politicians have made mistakes and over 40,000 people have died.

How about 50,000 under Labour to prove your point or 30,000 to make you look stupid!

How about we don’t play the what if game and simply support this Government through the crisis without pathetic political point scoring.
		
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Agreed, the time for this will be the inevtable inquiry after this all settles down.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 5, 2020)

Think we need to leave the party political stuff out of this
Ideally the leader of the opposition should be in on all the briefings, if not, why not? 
Then it’s a united front , Starmer is a barrister, who has the ability to forensically examine every step the government make and to question everything.

If this happens properly, then nobody can argue political points, if it isn’t allowed to work properly, then questions need to be asked


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## rulefan (Jun 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I very much doubt that he has succeeded in altering anyone's opinion.
		
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I very much doubt that anyone here has succeeded in altering anyone else's opinion here


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re better than this!

Plenty of tory politicians have made mistakes and over 40,000 people have died.

How about 50,000 under Labour to prove your point or 30,000 to make you look stupid!

How about we don’t play the what if game and simply support this Government through the crisis without pathetic political point scoring.
		
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I agree with your last sentence completely, but I don't attribute the 40000 or any of the deaths at the feet of the Tory politicians ( nor would I have done so at the feet of Labour) 
As far as I am concerned this Covid thing would have clobbered any government of the day. It is a terrible affliction upon the world, and I still say that there are many factors which give cause to the apparent success or failure of governments, and incompetency is low on the list.
Things like population strength and density ;ethnicity, affluence or otherwise of nations and sections within nations etc. Now altitude has come into the equation( makes sense). 
Responses to medicines and our understanding of them is not stable, and minds are forever changing, like Ibuprofen, hydroxychloroquine( now Lancet are not so sure it is ineffective and causes harm).
All this shows we are dealing with a largely unknown situation, one which does not need the derailing effects of Party politics .
Cooperation is what we need, International, national , scientific, etc - and plenty of it!


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## PNWokingham (Jun 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re better than this!

Plenty of tory politicians have made mistakes and over 40,000 people have died.

How about 50,000 under Labour to prove your point or 30,000 to make you look stupid!

How about we don’t play the what if game and simply support this Government through the crisis without pathetic political point scoring.
		
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I also agree with the last sentence. And the key point i was trying to make was about the relentless blaming of the government, the members of the government's individual performances in front of the cameras in very difficult and unparallelled circumstances - from someone who clearly hates the government and anything they do on the sepctrum of Covid to EU negotiations. On both points i agree in supporting the national interest - hence being a remain voter who will back the government to obtain a good deal that supports our new indepenadant status and to secure a prosperous future for our country. The same on Covid - nobody has the answers and we are constantly learning, will make more mistakes, change our minds or alter views on issues that affect our day-to-day lives. We need to get behind the government on this not constantly harp on and criticise


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## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Can I ask when you were appointed as the arbiter of discussion on the forum...
		
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...
The moment I signed up - as, of course, did everyone, including yourself! At least 'an' arbiter!

Btw. Thanks for clarifying your 'political preference'. I agree, that's not 'apathetic', indeed unusually 'healthy' and not altogether unlike my own, though I'm searching for an electable 'middle ground'!


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## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Think we need to leave the party political stuff out of this
Ideally the leader of the opposition should be in on all the briefings, if not, why not?
Then it’s a united front , Starmer is a barrister, who has the ability to forensically examine every step the government make and to question everything.

If this happens properly, then nobody can argue political points, if it isn’t allowed to work properly, then questions need to be asked
		
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While I agree there would be advantages to a 'united' approach, I believe it would take an enormous change of style for Boris to adapt and adopt (or vice-versa)! I'm not certain Starmer would accept such an invitation either - as it would likely seriously stymie his role (to 'oppose' - holding the government to account).

I have serious doubts whether UK is actually 'ready' for this sort of approach - albeit 'temporary'!


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## pendodave (Jun 6, 2020)

I must have missed the point at which the title and purpose(lol) of this thread changed...
That the governement has been, and continues to be, incompetent seems a perfectly reasonable point of view to me. If you don't want to hear it, don't come on the thread, or come on it and just put people on ignore. The virtual equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and intoning 'la la la', but it's your right.
I will continue to believe that the govt are destroying our economy for an insufficently good reason. I think that they are mostly incompetents. I dont believe that they deserve my support in this, or my coerced silence.
I also know that any of us writing anything here is of no consequence. Except that if someone sees that at least one other person shares their pov then it might cheer them up,


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2020)

It is difficult to support something that is fundamentally wrong.
Do we just turn a blind eye and ignore all of those arrogant mistakes that caused so many unnecessary deaths.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree with your last sentence completely, but I don't attribute the 40000 or any of the deaths at the feet of the Tory politicians ( nor would I have done so at the feet of Labour)
As far as I am concerned this Covid thing would have clobbered any government of the day. It is a terrible affliction upon the world, and I still say that there are many factors which give cause to the apparent success or failure of governments, and incompetency is low on the list.
Things like population strength and density ;ethnicity, affluence or otherwise of nations and sections within nations etc. Now altitude has come into the equation( makes sense).
Responses to medicines and our understanding of them is not stable, and minds are forever changing, like Ibuprofen, hydroxychloroquine( now Lancet are not so sure it is ineffective and causes harm).
All this shows we are dealing with a largely unknown situation, one which does not need the derailing effects of Party politics .
Cooperation is what we need, International, national , scientific, etc - and plenty of it!
		
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There are plenty of examples of tory politicians making mistakes with numbers yet, once again we got Abbott mentioned.

The Government are however responsible for dealing with the crisis and the deaths have occurred on their watch.

Every other Political Party is irrelevant.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I also agree with the last sentence. And the key point i was trying to make was about the relentless blaming of the government, the members of the government's individual performances in front of the cameras in very difficult and unparallelled circumstances - from someone who clearly hates the government and anything they do on the sepctrum of Covid to EU negotiations. On both points i agree in supporting the national interest - hence being a remain voter who will back the government to obtain a good deal that supports our new indepenadant status and to secure a prosperous future for our country. The same on Covid - nobody has the answers and we are constantly learning, will make more mistakes, change our minds or alter views on issues that affect our day-to-day lives. We need to get behind the government on this not constantly harp on and criticise
		
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Still makes absolutely no sense you bringing Labour, Corbyn & Abbott in to the equation, he may of criticised the Government but didn’t anywhere state a politician from any other Party would of done better.

Your answer was petty and a knee jerk to silh.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Still makes absolutely no sense you bringing Labour, Corbyn & Abbott in to the equation, he may of criticised the Government but didn’t anywhere state a politician from any other Party would of done better.

Your answer was petty and a knee jerk to silh.
		
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the point being that the posters here criticising the hell out of everything, with the benefit of hindsight, are fully blaming the government for everything. I am saying that wheatever government was dealing with this in the UK would have likely made similar choices and "mistakes". And i believe that the current team would have done better than anything that would have occured under Jeremy Corbyn


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree with your last sentence completely, but I don't attribute the 40000 or any of the deaths at the feet of the Tory politicians ( nor would I have done so at the feet of Labour)
As far as I am concerned this Covid thing would have clobbered any government of the day. It is a terrible affliction upon the world, and I still say that there are many factors which give cause to the apparent success or failure of governments, *and incompetency is low on the list.*
Things like population strength and density ;ethnicity, affluence or otherwise of nations and sections within nations etc. Now altitude has come into the equation( makes sense).
Responses to medicines and our understanding of them is not stable, and minds are forever changing, like Ibuprofen, hydroxychloroquine( now Lancet are not so sure it is ineffective and causes harm).
All this shows we are dealing with a largely unknown situation, one which does not need the derailing effects of Party politics .
Cooperation is what we need, International, national , scientific, etc - and plenty of it!
		
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Utter bilge IMHO. Governments lead (or don't in some cases) a countries response and define how a society reacts and what measures are put in place. Their competence and ability to get a grip on the situation is critical to the success of a countries response.

Of course there would have been deaths no matter what party is in power. But to assume the government's competence is low on the list in impacting how many deaths there have been, how many excess deaths a country has had is silly. From looking around the world I'd argue it is probably the most important factor.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I must have missed the point at which the title and purpose(lol) of this thread changed...
That the governement has been, and continues to be, incompetent seems a perfectly reasonable point of view to me. If you don't want to hear it, don't come on the thread, or come on it and just put people on ignore. The virtual equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and intoning 'la la la', but it's your right.
I will continue to believe that the govt are destroying our economy for an insufficently good reason. I think that they are mostly incompetents. I dont believe that they deserve my support in this, or my coerced silence.
I also know that any of us writing anything here is of no consequence. Except that if someone sees that at least one other person shares their pov then it might cheer them up,
		
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and how exactly are the government destrying our economy?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			the point being that the posters here criticising the hell out of everything, with the benefit of hindsight, are fully blaming the government for everything. I am saying that wheatever government was dealing with this in the UK would have likely made similar choices and "mistakes". And i believe that the current team would have done better than anything that would have occured under Jeremy Corbyn
		
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Fairy story, I believe The Monster Raving Loony Party would of cured it.

Taking responsibility doesn’t mean blame, fact is the present Government are 100% totally responsible for the handling and outcomes from Covid-19 in this Country, that doesn’t mean it is a blame game.

I’ve many a time backed them as we are in a totally new and unknown situation and point scoring over another party is pathetic.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Worse than the second highest death toll in the world? Gotta tell you if we could go back a year and try again with practically any credible alternative I’d take that chance. Even Corbyn, hopeless though he was.

As it is we are stuck with Johnson and our best chance of getting through it is to scrutinise everything they do so that mistakes can be minimised and addressed before they happen. Suppressing these discussions mean that measures, even well-meaning and sincere come from a single place in terms of ideology, experience and subconscious bias. Every policy can be improved by having more diverse voices helping to shape it.

Sadly there seems to be a move to ban any political dissent in real time and dismiss subsequent debate as “hindsight”. Classic authoritarian tactics and most definitely not what the country needs now.
		
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i have no problem pointing out mistakes and holding to account but i do not think in this country any alternative parties would have doen better. Easy with hindsight to recognise mistakes but different to put the blame firmly at a government to make huge choices. Would locking down the country a week or 10 days earlier have changed things? Probably but it may not have made much difference as the virus probably did most of its damage in January and February when the issues were far less known. They did the right thing in having a committee of science experts and leaning on them to help form the roadmap of decisions that were taken. Any other UK government would have done the same. As a country, we were not equiped on the supply chains, health quangos etc in dealing with this tragic outbreak and, again, likely would not have been much different under labour or the Greens or anyone else. It is clear the whole way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i have no problem pointing out mistakes and holding to account but *i do not think in this country any alternative parties would have doen better.* Easy with hindsight to recognise mistakes but different to put the blame firmly at a government to make huge choices. Would locking down the country a week or 10 days earlier have changed things? Probably but it may not have made much difference as the virus probably did most of its damage in January and February when the issues were far less known. They did the right thing in having a committee of science experts and leaning on them to help form the roadmap of decisions that were taken. *Any other UK government would have done the same.* As a country, we were not equiped on the supply chains, health quangos etc in dealing with this tragic outbreak and, again, *likely would not have been much different under labour or the Greens or anyone else*. It is clear the whole way.
		
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So the Labour/Corbyn/Abbott comments were not true then as you are clearly contradicting yourself with the bits in bold.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 6, 2020)

I agree with PaulDJ42  that the government, by definition is 100% responsible for the outcomes of this virus
They are in charge, goes with the territory. And a healthy level of scrutiny is expected and hopefully welcomed.
My concern is that we reach a point of over scrutiny which has the politicians constantly looking over their shoulder, looking out for the next journo to try and trip them up or catch them out, that ultimately results in a type of paralysis, where nobody does anything for fear of being found wrong later

That is where we are currently heading I fear


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## Red scorpion (Jun 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is difficult to support something that is fundamentally wrong.
Do we just turn a blind eye and ignore all of those arrogant mistakes that caused so many unnecessary deaths.
		
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I assume your talking about nike confrence in edinburgh in feb and care homes contributing almost 50% deaths in scotland.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I agree with Paul that the government, by definition is 100% responsible for the outcomes of this virus
They are in charge, goes with the territory. And a healthy level of scrutiny is expected and hopefully welcomed.
My concern is that we reach a point of over scrutiny which has the politicians constantly looking over their shoulder, looking out for the next journo to try and trip them up or catch them out, that ultimately results in a type of paralysis, where nobody does anything for fear of being found wrong later

That is where we are currently heading I fear
		
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Which Paul

I agree with what you say, the problem the Government faced was the unknown in the beginning, mistakes would of easily, and sadly, been made.

Some of those mistakes needed highlighting and sorting immediately, others, imo, should be left until an enquiry as they’d serve no purpose discussing them at the time and taking focus away from the fight.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So the Labour/Corbyn/Abbott comments were not true then as you are clearly contradicting yourself with the bits in bold.

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i mean that the steps of involving civil service and experts would be the same but i have more faith in the abilities of the current government than i do in the alternatives - albeit in this case i do not think the results would be a lot different


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Which Paul

I agree with what you say, the problem the Government faced was the unknown in the beginning, mistakes would of easily, and sadly, been made.

Some of those mistakes needed highlighting and sorting immediately, others, imo, should be left until an enquiry as they’d serve no purpose discussing them at the time and taking focus away from the fight.
		
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I agree. I think decisions that were made that don't affect us going forward should be left until after. If, like me, you think that the government locked down too late and not strictly enough, then that should be left to be argued later as it can't be changed. If you think that the lock down is being lifted too quickly then that should be argued now as it's an ongoing decision.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2020)

Politicians are not really experts in anything much, I dont know if any of them have any qualifications in dealing with viral pandemics. As such they have to take guidance from people that do understand these things and all the complex logistics and infastructure.   OK,  there will be choices to make at certain points in the timeline such as balancing the effects of locking down verses damage to the ecconomy.  Unfortunatly many people will look at the statistics and pull from them data to support their own political agendas which will be amplified by pulling support from the biased sensationalism in the media of their choice.

Of course retrospect will expose certain decisions that could have resulted in better results but every decision has not been a bad one.   What I find concerning are the levels of outright party political dogma and outrage being used by so many to dismiss absolutely everything the Government does, this now seems to have created  an anti Government feeding frenzy that is blinkered beyond belief.

Yes, discuss decisions, find lessons that we can learn from but try and be objective without the overt political dogma.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Politicians are not really experts in anything much, I dont know if any of them have any qualifications in dealing with viral pandemics. As such they have to take guidance from people that do understand these things and all the complex logistics and infastructure.   OK,  there will be choices to make at certain points in the timeline such as balancing the effects of locking down verses damage to the ecconomy.  People will look at the statistics and pull from them data to support their own political agendas which will be amplified by pulling support from the biased sensationalism in the media of your choice.

Of course retrospect will expose certain decisions that could have resulted in better results but every decision has not been a bad one.   *What I find concerning are the levels of outright party political dogma being used by so many to dismiss absolutely everything the Government does, this now seems to have created  an anti Government feeding frenzy that is blinkered beyond belief.*

Yes, discuss decisions, find lessons that we can learn from but try and be objective without the political dogma.
		
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The Politicians are the only ones accountable to the people.

Re the bit in bold: Absolutely no different to the pro-government blinkered view that they’ve done everything right and better than any other Party would of done.


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So the Labour/Corbyn/Abbott comments were not true then ...
		
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If you are suggesting eg that they would have got supplies of PPE in place sooner, you are wrong. The civil service's procurement processes would still have has the same issues.

Would they have introduced lockdown sooner? Only if they had been using different advisors possibly giving different advice. Certainly Corbyn et al would have been unqualified.

Was the decision to move elderly hospital patients to care homes actually a Johnson decision or was it made by the NHS hierarchy off their own bat?
With hind site it seems a bad decision but the fear was that leaving them in hospital would have overwhelmed the hospitals.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2020)

We need unity within the UK to sort out this mess.

First ministers of the devolved nations, the leaders of the other political parties and even in some cases members of the UK Cabinet  hearing new UK policy on Covid 19 for the first on the BBC news is NOT the way to go. It is not WW2 and we have to keep mum.


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## GB72 (Jun 6, 2020)

I do not think that the government has done everything right but they have done ok. The early work to preserve job bs was excellent, the PPE etc not so. The lockdown I felt was about right. Anything more would have needed troops on the street and I am not sure how that would have played. As for easing the lockdown, I am not sure there is much choice. The economy has to start moving. The results already will be a disaster but if we are in lockdown and those furloughs start turning to redundancies then the problems will be far further reaching.

My opinion, I think much depends on personal circumstance. I feel much of the calls to keep the lockdown going comes from those that can ride it out. Those who need to work, who see their whole industry threatened or those just starting out on their working life who see far less of a threat from the virus may see it differently. Equally, those struggling in their own I suspect will be overjoyed to be able to see a few people again.

No easy answers at all and no one solution will sit we with everyone. As I said before, I am seeing this all from a position where I have kept working, have access to a garden and the countryside and have very little personal impact from covid. As such I will not judge anyone who has acted in a way that they felt was necessary for them.


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## GB72 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If you are suggesting eg that they would have got supplies of PPE in place sooner, you are wrong. The civil service's procurement processes would still have has the same issues.

Would they have introduced lockdown sooner? Only if they had been using different advisors possibly giving different advice. Certainly Corbyn et al would have been unqualified.

Was the decision to move elderly hospital patients to care homes actually a Johnson decision or was it made by the NHS hierarchy off their own bat?
With hind site it seems a bad decision but the fear was that leaving them in hospital would have overwhelmed the hospitals.
		
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There are articles around that the whole idea of delaying lockdown and herd immunity was the expert advice and actually the lockdown was the government bowing to public pressure and ignoring it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*We need unity within the UK to sort out this mess.*

First ministers of the devolved nations, the leaders of the other political parties and even in some cases members of the UK Cabinet  hearing new UK policy on Covid 19 for the first on the BBC news is NOT the way to go. It is not WW2 and we have to keep mum.
		
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Extremely ironic coming from one of the most devisive people going when it comes to the nations of the UK - I don’t think you even understand unity and spend most of the time telling us all how great Sturgeon is doing compared to Johnson


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If you are suggesting eg that they would have got supplies of PPE in place sooner, you are wrong. The civil service's procurement processes would still have has the same issues.

Would they have introduced lockdown sooner? Only if they had been using different advisors possibly giving different advice. Certainly Corbyn et al would have been unqualified.

Was the decision to move elderly hospital patients to care homes actually a Johnson decision or was it made by the NHS hierarchy off their own bat?
With hind site it seems a bad decision but the fear was that leaving them in hospital would have overwhelmed the hospitals.
		
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I’m suggesting nothing except you’ve missed the point!

I see absolutely nothing being gained or having a discussion about what other politicians/parties etc would or would not have done.


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The early work to preserve jobs was excellent, the PPE etc not so.
		
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I would be interested to know how you think the PPE supplies could have reached the relevant people any sooner.
No manufacturing capacity, no supply chain contracts, no plan ....

The warning came with the 2000 sars epidemic. The then government did not heed it. 10 years later it was out of sight, out of mind.


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## GB72 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I would be interested to know how you think the PPE supplies could have reached the relevant people any sooner.
No manufacturing capacity, no supply chain contracts, no plan ....

The warning came with the 2000 sars epidemic. The then government did not heed it. 10 years later it was out of sight, out of mind.
		
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Will fully admit I am looking at the outcome not what could have been done as I have no knowledge of supply chains, PPE or otherwise. Only things I can think is that we did not get involved in the global scrum for PPE early enough and maybe could have appointed someone to run that operation earlier as we have now and perhaps reached out to UK companies sooner to change production to PPE as, again, we did later on


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m suggesting nothing except you’ve missed the point!

I see absolutely nothing being gained or having a discussion about what other politicians/parties etc would or would not have done.
		
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Perhaps not clearly expressed. I wasn't meaning that others would necessarily have made different decisions but rather the decisions made at the time were made based on the situation at the time. They were not made with the future known.


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I agree with PaulDJ42  that the government, by definition is 100% responsible for the outcomes of this virus
They are in charge, goes with the territory. And a healthy level of scrutiny is expected and hopefully welcomed.
My concern is that we reach a point of over scrutiny which has the politicians constantly looking over their shoulder, looking out for the next journo to try and trip them up or catch them out, that ultimately results in a type of paralysis, where nobody does anything for fear of being found wrong later

That is where we are currently heading I fear
		
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So China's delay in reporting ha d no consequences.
The fact it is a new virus still means the UK Goverment is 100% to blame for the outcome. even though no vaccine or treatment has been found by any organisation in the world.
Unlike many countries the UK has tried to be transparent and given out information pretty much as it as been available; the media consequence s they have chosen to pick away at the data just to use it as a stick and sensationalise. the data on testing rates and capacity is an example of meaningless hype. Testing is not a cure and the data does not show the lag inherent in the development of the illness, infection gestation, patient presentation, death rate lag and so.

Saying the Government is 100% responsible is a poor statement when clearly many variables are beyond the scope of current knowledge, human control or political intervention.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Perhaps not clearly expressed. I wasn't meaning that others would necessarily have made different decisions but rather the decisions made at the time were made based on the situation at the time. They were not made with the future known.
		
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That will come out at an enquiry.


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Will fully admit I am looking at the outcome not what could have been done as I have no knowledge of supply chains, PPE or otherwise. Only things I can think is that *(1)* *we did not get involved in the global scrum for PPE early enough* and* (2)* *maybe could have appointed someone to run that operation *earlier as we have now and perhaps *(3) reached out to UK companies sooner to change production to PPE* as, again, we did later on
		
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(1) We did in fact but the major producer needed it for themselves
(2) The problem is that the NHS has a fragmented procurement process and each NHS authority is jealous of its rights
(3) You just can't switch machine to make something different


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			So China's delay in reporting ha d no consequences.
The fact it is a new virus still means the UK Goverment is 100% to blame for the outcome. even though no vaccine or treatment has been found by any organisation in the world.
Unlike many countries the UK has tried to be transparent and given out information pretty much as it as been available; the medieqequencesa has chosen to pick away at the data just to use as a stick and sensationalise. the data on testing rates and capacity is an example of meaningless hype. Testing is not a cure and the data does not show the lag inherent in the development of the illness, infection gestation, patient presentation, death rate lag and so.

Saying the Government is 100% responsible is a poor statement when clearly many variables are beyond the scope of current knowledge, human control or political intervention.
		
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Read my post again
100% responsible is different from 100% to blame 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			So China's delay in reporting ha d no consequences.
The fact it is a new virus still means the UK Goverment is 100% to blame for the outcome. even though no vaccine or treatment has been found by any organisation in the world.
Unlike many countries the UK has tried to be transparent and given out information pretty much as it as been available; the medieqequencesa has chosen to pick away at the data just to use as a stick and sensationalise. the data on testing rates and capacity is an example of meaningless hype. Testing is not a cure and the data does not show the lag inherent in the development of the illness, infection gestation, patient presentation, death rate lag and so.

Saying the Government is 100% responsible is a poor statement when clearly many variables are beyond the scope of current knowledge, human control or political intervention.
		
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Of course the current Government is 100% responsible for their actions, you can’t hold China or anyone else responsible for how this Government reacted to the information available at the time.

Whether they had the correct information or not is a seperate issue, but they still made decisions and undoubtebly they’ll take credit for the ones they got right.


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## GB72 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			(1) We did in fact but the major producer needed it for themselves
(2) The problem is that the NHS has a fragmented procurement process and each NHS authority is jealous of its rights
(3) You just can't switch machine to make something different
		
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Ok accept all of that but tell people that in the daily briefing. Explain the problems and what is being done. I have been following this daily and left with the opinion that more could be done. Explain better and I would be more understanding


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Read my post again
100% responsible is different from 100% to blame 👍
		
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Wrong, you can only be responsible for actions and outcomes over which you hold the levers of control and ability to monitor.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Wrong, you can only be responsible for actions and outcomes over which you hold the levers of control and ability to monitor.
		
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They do for this Country.


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That will come out at an enquiry.

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Indeed.
And I hope the media reports it without bias


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Indeed.
And I hope the media report it without bias
		
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We can hope so, but I don’t think either of should hold our breath waiting.........


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

I would be interested to know what those who believe the government got something in particular wrong, would have done correctly, given the information available at that time. The action suggested should preferably include that information.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I would be interested to know what those who believe the government got something in particular wrong, would have done correctly, given the information available at that time. The action suggested should preferably include that information.
		
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Early days we were getting stories/statements/press releases from different NHS Trusts about their stocks and supplies of PPE, accepting the Government role is/was limited on the procurement of supplies within the NHS, I believe at the time they should of stepped in, put someone in charge of oversight and got a clear picture of exactly what was going on in regards hospital/trusts stocks of PPE, then were there was a surplus or shortage it should of been moved about.

They never seemed to get a grip of the PPE problems early enough in to the crisis and it led to the fiasco like the Turkey order etc.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Extremely ironic coming from one of the most devisive people going when it comes to the nations of the UK - I don’t think you even understand unity and spend most of the time telling us all how great Sturgeon is doing compared to Johnson
		
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Whoosh.
Did you even read beyond the line you highlighted.
When it comes to divided I am a mere pussycat compared to the UK Prime Minister.
He managed to dived the EU, The UK, England and the divided portion of his divided Tory party.
Mind you he did manage to unite the EU and most Scots and Irish.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I would be interested to know what those who believe the government got something in particular wrong, would have done correctly, given the information available at that time. The action suggested should preferably include that information.
		
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I believe that the lock down came about 10 days to 2 weeks too late. And I believe it should have been stricter. To me it seemed as though Boris was trying to be everybody's best friend rather than a leader. The fiasco (IMO) of advising people not to go to the pub rather than simply closing them shouldn't have happened. Also the banning of mass gatherings, such as Cheltenham and the Liverpool v Athletico match, should've happened sooner.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I believe that the lock down came about 10 days to 2 weeks too late. And I believe it should have been stricter. *To me it seemed as though Boris was trying to be everybody's best friend rather than a leader*. The fiasco (IMO) of advising people not to go to the pub rather than simply closing them shouldn't have happened. Also the banning of mass gatherings, such as Cheltenham and the Liverpool v Athletico match, should've happened sooner.
		
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Spot on imho. He was being what Boris is, a populist who struggles with details, is obviously dependent on Cummings being around, goes Awol when the going gets tough to avoid questioning and increasing seems to be out of his depth and I suspect is desperate to get back to Brexit. Which is worrying if he is in charge of trying to open us up more and get us out of this.

Wouldn't be surprised if we get a second peak and most other countries don't then Rishi will be PM.


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## huds1475 (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Wrong, you can only be responsible for actions and outcomes over which you hold the levers of control and ability to monitor.
		
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Govt is accountable for how the country is managed during the pandemic.

They're not responsible for each death, the virus, global supply chains and so on.

But these things are great for a free hit if one isn't accountable and has the benefit of hindsight.

Neither of you are daft though, just absolutes dont work very well on an Internet page 🙂


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I believe that the lock down came about 10 days to 2 weeks too late. And I believe it should have been stricter. To me it seemed as though Boris was trying to be everybody's best friend rather than a leader. The fiasco (IMO) of advising people not to go to the pub rather than simply closing them shouldn't have happened. Also the banning of mass gatherings, such as Cheltenham and the Liverpool v Athletico match, should've happened sooner.
		
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That seems like hind site. 
What factual information would have made you take those decisions at that time and what information did you and Johnson actually have at that time?


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Early days we were getting stories/statements/press releases from different NHS Trusts about their stocks and supplies of PPE, accepting the Government role is/was limited on the procurement of supplies within the NHS, I believe at the time they should of stepped in, put someone in charge of oversight and got a clear picture of exactly what was going on in regards hospital/trusts stocks of PPE, then were there was a surplus or shortage it should of been moved about.

They never seemed to get a grip of the PPE problems early enough in to the crisis and it led to the fiasco like the Turkey order etc.
		
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The NHS procurement bodies resisted interference from the centre. My son's sister in law is the procurement director of one of the larger NHS trusts and told my son at the time. He incidentally, is a procurement consultant and maintains that outside the MoD, the NHS has the worst procurement reputation in the business.
When the centre got their hands on it it turned out they hadn't got buyers with the experience of sourcing PPE products from overseas.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The NHS procurement bodies resisted interference from the centre. My son's sister in law is the procurement director of one of the larger NHS trusts and told my son at the time. He incidentally, is a procurement consultant and maintains that outside the MoD, the NHS has the worst procurement reputation in the business.
When the centre got their hands on it it turned out they hadn't got buyers with the experience of sourcing PPE products from overseas.
		
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There have been other errors made by NHS Admin but it seems the NHS as a whole are beyond reproach at the moment so the Government take the hit. The times the CEO of NHS Providers has been interviewed and you'd honestly think he had zero responsibility for any procurement whatsoever. Recently the lack of numbers from Track and Trace has been a stick to beat the Government and yet that again is an NHS responsibility.

I'm sure the lines are blurred due to the pandemic but it is not all the Governement's responsibility.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Extremely *ironic *coming from one of the most devisive people going when it comes to the nations of the UK - I don’t think you even understand unity and spend most of the time telling us all how great Sturgeon is doing compared to Johnson
		
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beat me to that one Phil!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The NHS procurement bodies resisted interference from the centre. My son's sister in law is the procurement director of one of the larger NHS trusts and told my son at the time. He incidentally, is a procurement consultant and maintains that outside the MoD, the NHS has the worst procurement reputation in the business.
When the centre got their hands on it it turned out they hadn't got buyers with the experience of sourcing PPE products from overseas.
		
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This is a global pandemic that no one has experienced before, the Government are responsible for this Country, so they have the power and authority to step in and sort out whatever needed doing.

The NHS Procurement bodies should of been put in their place from minute 1, we read on here and in the media about the Trusts that were working well, they should of been used as “best practise” and everyone pull together.

I’m not saying for one minute the Government had the ability to do it themselves or their own expert, but they do have the power to step in and sort it out.

If the PPE wasn’t such a fiasco, why did it drag on?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			There have been other errors made by NHS Admin but it seems the NHS as a whole are beyond reproach at the moment so the Government take the hit. The times the CEO of NHS Providers has been interviewed and you'd honestly think he had zero responsibility for any procurement whatsoever. *Recently the lack of numbers from Track and Trace has been a stick to beat the Government and yet that again is an NHS responsibility.*

I'm sure the lines are blurred due to the pandemic but it is not all the Governement's responsibility.
		
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The Government cannot simply absolve themselves of responsibility by handing it off to someone else. 

If it’s not working or there are problems then they step in and get answers.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The Government cannot simply absolve themselves of responsibility by handing it off to someone else.

If it’s not working or there are problems then they step in and get answers.
		
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They don't. Not once have they said "it's their fault" - far from it. I'm just saying the responsiblity for errors made doesn't just come from one place.


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## patricks148 (Jun 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Spot on imho. He was being what Boris is, a populist who struggles with details, is obviously dependent on Cummings being around, goes Awol when the going gets tough to avoid questioning and increasing seems to be out of his depth and I suspect is desperate to get back to Brexit. Which is worrying if he is in charge of trying to open us up more and get us out of this.

Wouldn't be surprised if we get a second peak and most other countries don't then Rishi will be PM.
		
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one thing i'm not getting is when DC did his press conf the other week, he stated that he predicted the Pandemic, so if this was the case why were we not better prep for what was coming after effects it had in China at the start. ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			They don't. Not once have they said "it's their fault" - far from it. I'm just saying the responsiblity for errors made doesn't just come from one place.
		
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People(not just you) are using words like blame and errors etc, everyone accepts there has been and will be mistakes, that doesn’t change the responsibility though, responsibility is all encompassing, both good and bad, it’s not a criticism of the Government, just a fact.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It cuts both ways. There are plenty who seem eager to absolve the government of any responsibility. The truth, as almost always, lies somewhere in between.
		
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Do they!  l don't see people absolving the Government of any responsibility.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			You should check out what they're saying on the Golf Monthly forum.
		
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 I keep away from extreme political Forums. Could anyone improve my chipping?


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The Government cannot simply absolve themselves of responsibility by handing it off to someone else.

If it’s not working or there are problems then they step in and get answers.
		
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There is always a lag in decisionmaking. 
Until the poor inventory planning of PPE stocks by the NHS Trusts became apparent there wasn't a problem to solve. 
Until the ratte of infection started to be seen the threat to NHS emergency capacity was not forcaste.
Until the medics found current treatment were not effective the need for new vaccines and treatments weren't anticipated.

The world lost valuable leadtime of a couple of months because of missinformation and reporting delays by China so everyone was playing a desperate game of catch up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is always a lag in decisionmaking.
Until the poor inventory planning of PPE stocks by the NHS Trusts became apparent there wasn't a problem to solve.
Until the ratte of infection started to be seen the threat to NHS emergency capacity was not forcaste.
Until the medics found current treatment were not effective the need for new vaccines and treatments weren't anticipated.

The world lost valuable leadtime of a couple of months because of missinformation and reporting delays by China so everyone was playing a desperate game of catch up.
		
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I’m not having a go at the Government when I’m saying it’s their responsibility, it comes with the job.

As for China, was this a new China that blind sided the world with missinformation and reporting delays or the same China that has behaved like that for years?

Is there no scenario in which any Government (not just ours) could’ve been over-cautious or over-complacent with what was happening in China based on their record?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is always a lag in decisionmaking.
Until the poor inventory planning of PPE stocks by the NHS Trusts became apparent there wasn't a problem to solve.
Until the ratte of infection started to be seen the threat to NHS emergency capacity was not forcaste.
Until the medics found current treatment were not effective the need for new vaccines and treatments weren't anticipated.

The world lost valuable leadtime of a couple of months because of missinformation and reporting delays by China so everyone was playing a desperate game of catch up.
		
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very well put. I suspect that the whole nhs qaungo infrastructure will be on for a serious overhaul - and to even understand the set up let alone plan the improvements will take months


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

So here’s a question on responsibility by the Government, it was announced yesterday over 800,000 NHS Employees are to be able to access type 1 or type 2 masks on a daily basis from 15 June.

Today the Deputy Chief Executive of NHS providers has come out and said NHS Trusts were neither informed of this decision or asked what stocks they have available or can procure in 9 days.

Some Staff will also need to be trained in how to use them, how difficult that is, I have no idea.

Hopefully, all will be ok and all NHS Staff will be looked after.

My question is: If the stocks are not available or the system can’t supply them and some Trusts can’t meet the deadline, were do we think responsibility will lie?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not having a go at the Government when I’m saying it’s their responsibility, it comes with the job.

As for China, was this a new China that blind sided the world with missinformation and reporting delays or the same China that has behaved like that for years?

Is there no scenario in which any Government (not just ours) could’ve been over-cautious or over-complacent with what was happening in China based on their record?
		
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China and its place in the global economy is the other key thing that will change post Covid. Trump was alreeady stoking the fire with trade renegotiations/ Huawai. But now the rest of the world has now joined in and a multi-year change in relations will happen and i suspect that China's place in the global heirarchy will change. Too early tpo tell if this turns into a full-blown cold war or if Xi can backtrack on the more authoritarian route he has taken the country over the last few years - anyway, one for another discussion thread!


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

We have numerous gatherings and protests taking place here in the UK and many othe countries where Social Distancing advice is being ignored and few masks are evidence on the protesters.

Given the lag in the virus symtoms coming out in an individual I wonder if anyone who unfortunately becomes infected at a protest will tell the 'Track and Trace' system that's where they were in contact with many others.

If (hopefully not) there is a spike(s) I wonder if the connection will be made honestly rather than PC laying the blame at the relaxing of lockdown measures?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So here’s a question on responsibility by the Government, it was announced yesterday over 800,000 NHS Employees are to be able to access type 1 or type 2 masks on a daily basis from 15 June.

Today the Deputy Chief Executive of NHS providers has come out and said NHS Trusts were neither informed of this decision or asked what stocks they have available or can procure in 9 days.

Some Staff will also need to be trained in how to use them, how difficult that is, I have no idea.

Hopefully, all will be ok and all NHS Staff will be looked after.

My question is: If the stocks are not available or the system can’t supply them and some Trusts can’t meet the deadline, were do we think *responsibility will lie*?
		
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Nicola Sturgeon obviously!


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			China and its place in the global economy is the other key thing that will change post Covid. Trump was alreeady stoking the fire with trade renegotiations/ Huawai. But now the rest of the world has now joined in and a multi-year change in relations will happen and i suspect that China's place in the global heirarchy will change. Too early tpo tell if this turns into a full-blown cold war or if Xi can backtrack on the more authoritarian route he has taken the country over the last few years - anyway, one for another discussion thread!
		
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China is a civilisation based in the notion of honour and pride - that will prevent any admission of wrong doing or mistakes. Xi will never backtrack and his internal persona will mean that he will use 'attack'' to divert and blame - we can see evidence with the reaction to Australia and the treatment of HK. Events could easily become outx of hand.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			China is a civilisation based in the notion of honour and pride - that will prevent any admission of wrong doing or mistakes. Xi will never backtrack and his internal persona will mean that he will use 'attack'' to divert and blame - we can see evidence with the reaction to Australia and the treatment of HK. Events could easily become outx of hand.
		
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it is also very focused on material wealth. But i do agree. I think a new cold war is likely and i worry about the fate of Hong Kong and Taiwan


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## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



*I agree with PaulDJ42  that the government, by definition is 100% responsible for the outcomes of this virus
They are in charge, goes with the territory. And a healthy level of scrutiny is expected and hopefully welcomed.*
My concern is that we reach a point of over scrutiny which has the politicians constantly looking over their shoulder, looking out for the next journo to try and trip them up or catch them out, that ultimately results in a type of paralysis, where nobody does anything for fear of being found wrong later

That is where we are currently heading I fear
		
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Re the bit in bold....Twaddle! The Government can only create *a framework to minimise the effects on UK society* of this pandemic including appropriately organising the search for a cure! If it was '100% responsible for the outcomes...', that would be equivalent to it also being 100% responsible for every Murder, Burglary, Fire and Road Accident, something that is obviously not its responsibility - though minimisunbg the effects on UK society IS.

Your concerns may be valid, but that's where Leaders, perhaps not the obvious candidates, step up and take responsibility, even/especially for getting it (excusably) wrong!


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## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			it is also very focused on material wealth...
		
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Which seems to be the complete antipathy of 'communism'! China is certainly becoming increasingly influential in every aspect! And if Trump fears it as much as it appears, then things could get very messy very quickly!


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Today the Deputy Chief Executive of NHS providers has come out and said NHS Trusts were neither informed of this decision or asked what stocks they have available or can procure in 9 days.
		
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This was reported a couple of days ago. A "government spokesman" said they had been.
There has been no mention since that I have seen.


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Which seems to be the complete antipathy of 'communism'! China is certainly becoming increasingly influential in every aspect! And if Trump fears it as much as it appears, then things could get very messy very quickly!
		
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Communism is just how the rich keep the money and power while controlling the masses.
"Messy" might be a mild outcome as it becomes more belligerent.

China's exchange rate has rigged the markets for years and the West failed to address it. Meanwhile they have pretty much 'bought' Africa and thus most of the world's rate earth metals.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



_See also: Capitalism_

Click to expand...

difference is in capitalism you can moan, protest, elect new officials, force enquiries - you just get the gulag or the bullet or disappear in communism. Human instint and inequality are inevitable - at least you can drive change in the capitalism, strive for accountability and have achance of success


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## Kellfire (Jun 6, 2020)

Do we think the Tory voters on this site would be lenient in their criticism of Labour if they were in government right, in light of it being an unprecedented time?

Nah, me either.


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## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
China's exchange rate has rigged the markets for years and the West failed to address it. Meanwhile they have pretty much 'bought' Africa and thus most of the world's rate earth metals.
		
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So a failure by 'the West' (as opposed to wise diplomacy by China) then! 
Remind me again who's at 'fault'?
Wilbur Smith forecast this a couple of decades ago!


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## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do we think the Tory voters on this site would be lenient in their criticism of Labour if they were in government right, in light of it being an unprecedented time?

Nah, me either.
		
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Ask a Lib Dem


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

Interesting that many hundreds can protest in a crowd without SD and the media are not jumping up and down 1 guy drives 260 miles and there is uproar.


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## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So a failure by 'the West' (as opposed to wise diplomacy by China) then!
Remind me again who's at 'fault'?
Wilbur Smith forecast this a couple of decades ago!
		
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Trouble with the West, they were convinced that China would go the same way as the old USSR and their kind of communism would fail. Instead they learnt very quickly from Russia and let the entrepreneurial China man get rich so they ensured their full support.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bit in bold....Twaddle! The Government can only create a framework to *minimise the effects on UK society* of this pandemic including appropriately organising the search for a cure! If it was '100% responsible for the outcomes...', that would be equivalent to it also being 100% responsible for every Murder, Burglary, Fire and Road Accident, something that is obviously not its responsibility - though minimisunbg the effects on UK society IS.

Your concerns may be valid, but that's where Leaders, perhaps not the obvious candidates, step up and take responsibility, even/especially for getting it (excusably) wrong!
		
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Gawd this is hard work

How about I rephrase it that the government are responsible for the measures taken to try and control the virus

Is that any better?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Interesting that many hundreds can protest in a crowd without SD and the media are not jumping up and down 1 guy drives 260 miles and there is uproar.
		
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Hmmm... That "one guy" is an unelected unaccountable bureaucrat who believes it's OK to muck over our lives whilst believing his own edicts don't apply to himself... A lot like the bureaucrats who pollute the corridors in Brussels... You know, the ones we voted to kick into touch... Well, I did anyway...


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## drdel (Jun 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Gawd this is hard work

How about I rephrase it that the government are responsible for the measures taken to try and control the virus

Is that any better?
		
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Much. That didn't hurt too much did it.


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## Wolf (Jun 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Ask a Lib Dem 

Click to expand...

Why you bringing me into this 😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			This was reported a couple of days ago. A "government spokesman" said they had been.
There has been no mention since that I have seen.
		
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Well the announcement was only yesterday and she’s in the news today.🤷‍♂️

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...-nhs-trusts-with-new-face-mask-rules-12001558


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## PNWokingham (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Interesting that many hundreds can protest in a crowd without SD and the media are not jumping up and down 1 guy drives 260 miles and there is uproar.
		
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must be the governmen's fault for not laying out 2 metre squares with sticky tape


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## Foxholer (Jun 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Gawd this is hard work

How about I rephrase it that the government are responsible for the measures taken to try and control the virus

Is that any better?
		
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Perfick!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 6, 2020)

I thought that’s what I said first time round 🙄


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 6, 2020)

They screwed up on testing. I've had someone jump all over me making this point earlier in this thread but I  do have some knowledge in this area and they  didn't get their act together quickly enough. PPE as I've stated before was a global issue and I don't think you can hold them responsible for this because we don't control supply chain  but testing is on them as far has I'm concerned.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Interesting that many hundreds can protest in a crowd without SD and the media are not jumping up and down 1 guy drives 260 miles and there is uproar.
		
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Are there lockdown policy makers protesting?


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



*I* *thought that’s what I said* first time round 🙄
		
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You may well have! But the words you wrote gave/allowed a different impression! A common issue on here or any forum - and probably the cause for much of your 'Grim Reaper' activity!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You may well have! But the words you wrote gave/allowed a different impression! A common issue on here or any forum - and probably the cause for much of your 'Grim Reaper' activity!
		
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I bow to your superior qualifications in advanced pedantics 👍😂


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			They screwed up on testing. I've had someone jump all over me making this point earlier in this thread but I  do have some knowledge in this area and they  didn't get their act together quickly enough. PPE as I've stated before was a global issue and I don't think you can hold them responsible for this because we don't control supply chain  but testing is on them as far has I'm concerned.
		
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Testing was something they had to set the framework up for from scratch. I'm content that they actually (nearly) did the right thing getting this established, though they missed their 1st 'target' and fudged their 'success'. They should have admitted 'wrong target' as the target ('People Tested' cf 'Tests Available') was not something 'in their control'! Better target 2nd time, (Tests Available) which they DID meet, though have 'hidden' the earlier 'embarrassing' metric.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I bow to your superior qualifications in advanced* pedantics* 👍😂
		
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It's 'pedantry'!  Can't you get anything right?


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## Imurg (Jun 7, 2020)

The case for the prosecution rests M'lud....


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## rulefan (Jun 7, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do we think the Tory voters on this site would be lenient in their criticism of Labour if they were in government right, in light of it being an unprecedented time?

Nah, me either.
		
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Politics is like real life. Just more extreme.


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do we think the Tory voters on this site would be lenient in their criticism of Labour if they were in government right, in light of it being an unprecedented time?

Nah, me either.
		
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It's very difficult to imagine the impossible !


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It's very difficult to imagine the impossible !
		
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But easier than trying to expect the unexpected


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## MegaSteve (Jun 7, 2020)

Seems government are desperately seeking an expert willing to put their neck on the block advising one metre is safe for distancing...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			must be the governmen's fault for not laying out 2 metre squares with sticky tape
		
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Naw…. Nicola Sturgeon's to blame again.
Where is she hiding, you never see her these days.


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## rulefan (Jun 7, 2020)

She's having her hair done


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## pendodave (Jun 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems government are desperately seeking an expert willing to put their neck on the block advising one metre is safe for distancing...
		
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Don't worry, in a couple of weeks, when even our bunch have realised what a catastrophy they have unleashed, Nick Hancock will unveil a special 'magic feather' which if carried will allow anyone not very old, sick or overweight to live life perfectly normally. Everyone will congratulate themselves on what we've achieved over the last 4 months apart from the millions out of work and those no longer receiving an education....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems government are desperately seeking an expert willing to put their neck on the block advising one metre is safe for distancing...
		
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David Icke or Professor Pennington on call.


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## rulefan (Jun 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Don't worry, in a couple of weeks, when even *our bunch have realised what a catastrophy they have unleashed*, Nick Hancock will unveil a special 'magic feather' which if carried will allow anyone not very old, sick or overweight to live life perfectly normally. Everyone will congratulate themselves on what we've achieved over the last 4 months apart from the millions out of work and those no longer receiving an education....
		
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Ah. So "_our bunch" _ really did import the virus from China. Probably part of the deal with Huawei.


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## pendodave (Jun 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Ah. So "_our bunch" _ really did import the virus from China. Probably part of the deal with Huawei.
		
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Our response and the consequences are the catastrophe. But I'm guessing you already knew that...


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## rulefan (Jun 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Our response and the consequences are the catastrophe. But I'm guessing you already knew that...
		
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Remind me. What were the actions that prompted it?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Don't worry, in a couple of weeks, when even our bunch have realised what a catastrophy they have unleashed, Nick Hancock will unveil a special 'magic feather' which if carried will allow anyone not very old, sick or overweight to live life perfectly normally. Everyone will congratulate themselves on what we've achieved over the last 4 months apart from the millions out of work and those no longer receiving an education....
		
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very balanced!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-caught-Covid-19-skiing-Austria-New-Year.html


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2020)

Aren't we in a situation where we either risk more people dying or we risk the economy going really tits up. But, due to whatever reason (I would say mostly government incompetence and poor leadership, others would disagree)  we are in the situation where we are currently not in a great place now when it comes to deaths, test and trace etc. So people understandably are a bit weary of the measures being taken top open up more. 

I don't think anyone is arguing we need to get the economy up and running, it's just that some of us would have liked us to be in a stronger position to begin that process. Other seem happy to ignore that and sweep it under the carpet.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2020)

Nicola breaks her 'non party political' promise and gives Tory Leader Jackson Carlaw a very well earned verbal ear bashing today.
Virtually all of Scotland say 'good on you'. 
Can't believe she held it in so long after wasting far to much of her precious time replying to his idiotic ham fisted questions.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Aren't we in a situation where we either risk more people dying or we risk the economy going really tits up. But, due to whatever reason (I would say mostly government incompetence and poor leadership, others would disagree)  we are in the situation where we are currently not in a great place now when it comes to deaths, test and trace etc. So people understandably are a bit weary of the measures being taken top open up more.

I don't think anyone is arguing we need to get the economy up and running, it's just that some of us would have liked us to be in a stronger position to begin that process. Other seem happy to ignore that and sweep it under the carpet.
		
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Would you support anything an incompetent Government with poor leadership did (others would agree)
Let's face it they will never win with you, you just cant bring yourself to support anything they do so why not just make a post saying that and save all the repetition.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2020)

Nice to see the government have eventually rowed back on their intention for all kids to be in primary school before the end of term. Not sure if they did not think this one out properly (Johnny has 7 classrooms and 210 kids in normal circumstances. However now each classroom can only have 15 kids in it, so how many classrooms does Johnny need to be able to open the school to all the pupils? That's correct, it's more than the physical capacity just about of every school seeing as the number of classrooms in primary schools is generally based on a class size of around 30. Well done Johnny, you are now better at maths than the education secretary) or they thought we'd be further down the line when it comes to R rates, test and trace etc by this stage. 

However I expect we'll now have parents in the years that are not currently back and can't come back due to lack of classrooms wanting to send their kids back. And everything will be the schools fault for not providing an education for the kids...  Another fine mess the government have got the schools into.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2020)

For ministers and others struggling to understand what ministerial responsibility means - simply see Lord Carrington and the Falklands.

And so - over to Mr Gavin Williamson and the back-to-school shambles and his accusations of 'scaremongering' levelled at all those in the teaching profession who expressed great reservations over the practicalities...

Given this I am wondering how Williamson has got on working with schools in getting laptops to disadvantaged teenagers (announced 19th April) as that would seem to be critical now.


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## drdel (Jun 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For ministers and others struggling to understand what ministerial responsibility means - simply see Lord Carrington and the Falklands.

And so - over to Mr Gavin Williamson and the back-to-school shambles and his accusations of 'scaremongering' levelled at all those in the teaching profession who expressed great reservations over the practicalities...

Given this I am wondering how Williamson has got on working with schools in getting laptops to disadvantaged teenagers (announced 19th April) as that would seem to be critical now.
		
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OK let us just ignore that the world is grappling with a pandemic caused by a new virus that has proven to be very virulent.

Yet, uniquely: you and HH assert the UK Government and scientists should have found a magical cure, they should all have predicted how long the gestation period would last. Those idiots should have been able to predicted exactly when and how much PPE, diagnostic capabilities each care home, hospital and School would need

According to you, Williamson is such an idiot because he and his advisors do not have at their finger tips the exact dimensions and demographics of each and every school or the timemap of infection's demography.

Research and learning is about doing stuff when you are not sure about what you doing!!
Criticism is right and proper but empty ranting is wasted effort.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For ministers and others struggling to understand what ministerial responsibility means - simply see Lord Carrington and the Falklands.

And so - over to Mr Gavin Williamson and the back-to-school shambles and his accusations of 'scaremongering' levelled at all those in the teaching profession who expressed great reservations over the practicalities...

Given this I am wondering how Williamson has got on working with schools in getting laptops to disadvantaged teenagers (announced 19th April) as that would seem to be critical now.
		
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so, just to soum up - the governemnt are a shambles on another topic while trying their best to solve a riddle that is impossible to solve and please everyone - they are tring to get children back to school (which every logical person would say is a good thing) in a safe way but that is a bad bad thing as not all schools can do it to the same degree and we cannot guarantee everyone's saftety to the nth degree! Wake up and smell the coffee. Life needs to go on and the economy needs to open up - and we have to learn to live with and manage this virus at the same time

I look forward to the moaning later when no doubt the government will be doing another bad bad thing on the same or a different topic - probably be scope for multiple moaning. No doubt you can enliighten us all then - and also leave out "what they should have done" which is absent from all of your moaning


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			so, just to soum up - the governemnt are a shambles on another topic while trying their best to solve a riddle that is impossible to solve and please everyone - they are tring to get children back to school (which every logical person would say is a good thing) in a safe way but that is a bad bad thing as not all schools can do it to the same degree and we cannot guarantee everyone's saftety to the nth degree! Wake up and smell the coffee. Life needs to go on and the economy needs to open up - and we have to learn to live with and manage this virus at the same time

I look forward to the moaning later when no doubt the government will be doing another bad bad thing on the same or a different topic - probably be scope for multiple moaning. No doubt you can enliighten us all then - and also leave out "what they should have done" which is absent from all of your moaning
		
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As usual you equate pointing out problems, mistakes and changes of mind with moaning.  Anything but accept any failings by our government.

The government didn't listen and dismissed concerns about practicalities - indeed called it scaremongering.  And as a result the schools have been trying to work towards opening before the summer hols when they could have been working towards getting things sorted for a return end of summer break.  It's not difficult to see how they could have managed the situation differently and without hindsight.

But hey.  Welcome to the 'No Responsibility' 'No Apologies' government.  How about Williamson just apologises to children, parents, teachers, heads and governors for going down the wrong route on this.  Maybe he did in his statement to the house as I might have missed it.  It would make a welcome change.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			OK let us just ignore that the world is grappling with a pandemic caused by a new virus that has proven to be very virulent.

Yet, uniquely: you and HH assert the UK Government and scientists should have found a magical cure, they should all have predicted how long the gestation period would last. Those idiots should have been able to predicted exactly when and how much PPE, diagnostic capabilities each care home, hospital and School would need

According to you, Williamson is such an idiot because he and his advisors do not have at their finger tips the exact dimensions and demographics of each and every school or the timemap of infection's demography.

Research and learning is about doing stuff when you are not sure about what you doing!!
Criticism is right and proper but empty ranting is wasted effort.
		
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Not sure if I am HH.  If I am then I did not say they should have found a magical cure.  I have stated before that I do see the logic and need to get kids back in schools if they can, as many are missing out on a lot of education.  So if you want a I am happy to agree in principle if it can be done safely. My issue was with governments making statements about how many kids will be going back at some date in the future when literally simple maths done by a primary school pupil could have told them that that would not be possible. Every head teacher said that, every governor said that, every teaching union said that, it is not something you can now see with hindsight. It is basic simple maths.  And it makes them look silly and distracts from the message that primary school kids education is important.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government didn't listen and dismissed concerns about practicalities - indeed called it scaremongering*.  And as a result the schools have been trying to work towards opening before the summer hols when they could have been working towards getting things sorted for a return end of summer break. * It's not difficult to see how they could have managed the situation differently and without hindsight.

But hey.  Welcome to the 'No Responsibility' 'No Apologies' government.  How about Williamson just apologises for going down the wrong route on this.  Maybe he did in his statement to the house as I might have missed it.
		
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Many primary schools have successfully opened up to more pupils in reception, Yr1 and 6.  As it was the right thing to do and they could do it safely under the restrictions. And there was a lot of scaremongering IMHO. Also most schools never closed down as they were open to children of key workers and those numbers are ever increasing as more professions are classed as key workers.  The opening up of schools to more pupils where it is safe is not the issue here, the stupid statement that he wanted to see all primary pupils in school before the end of the term when everyone knew that would be impossible under the current circumstances is.


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2020)

On a change of subject slightly, I saw a post on Facebook from a friend that reminded me that the mention of underlying medical issues (so covid cannot be classed as the sole cause of death, if it had any bearing aside from being present) seems to have disappeared from briefings and coverage. Anyway, the interesting point is that from the NHS figures, the number of deaths that could solely be attributed to Covid was only 1389 as at 2nd June. Of those 1389, nearly 600 were over the age of 80. Obviously not trying to belittle the dreadful impact that this virus is having but it is interesting in relation to the risk of a second wave impacting on the health service etc if caution is shown by those at most risk.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Many primary schools have successfully opened up to more pupils in reception, Yr1 and 6.  As it was the right thing to do and they could do it safely under the restrictions. And there was a lot of scaremongering IMHO. Also most schools never closed down as they were open to children of key workers and those numbers are ever increasing as more professions are classed as key workers.  The opening up of schools to more pupils where it is safe is not the issue here, the stupid statement that he wanted to see all primary pupils in school before the end of the term when everyone knew that would be impossible under the current circumstances is.
		
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Yes - sorry - I meant opening 'fully'.  I can recall discussing this some weeks with my wife some weeks ago after is was announced as we walked past our children's old primary school.  OK maybe getting reception and year 6 in, but how on earth are they going to fit all the kids in in groups of no more than 15 in a class?  Maybe they could have put some marquees or portacabins up in the playing fields, or split the main hall up somehow and manage the children going in and out - which they could.  I suspect they could have managed, but not all primary schools have their own playing fields on site.  Indeed it may well be that now that head teachers are able to decide with their school governors, maybe our local school will be able to reopen.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - sorry - I meant opening 'fully'.  I can recall discussing this some weeks with my wife some weeks ago after is was announced as we walked past our children's old primary school.  OK maybe getting reception and year 6 in, but how on earth are they going to fit all the kids in in groups of no more than 15 in a class?  Maybe they could have put some marquees or portacabins up in the playing fields, or split the main hall up somehow and manage the children going in and out - which they could.  I suspect they could have managed, but not all primary schools have their own playing fields on site.  Indeed it may well be that now that head teachers are able to decide with their school governors, maybe our local school will be able to reopen.
		
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My daughter is in with the primary kids atm.
The biggest problem she says is because they are in “ bubbles” you need two adults to a class.
Going to the toilets and washing hands is like a military operation.
There is just not enough space for a one way system in the corridors.
It’s working ok now but they are at full capacity with only two year groups in and key workers children.
Politicians bitched enough about turning up in parliament last week to vote .
They don’t inhabit the real world ,,ok on paper But not in practice.


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			On a change of subject slightly, I saw a post on Facebook from a friend that reminded me that the mention of underlying medical issues (so covid cannot be classed as the sole cause of death, if it had any bearing aside from being present) seems to have disappeared from briefings and coverage. Anyway, the interesting point is that from the NHS figures, the number of deaths that could solely be attributed to Covid was only 1389 as at 2nd June. Of those 1389, nearly 600 were over the age of 80. Obviously not trying to belittle the dreadful impact that this virus is having but it is interesting in relation to the risk of a second wave impacting on the health service etc if caution is shown by those at most risk.
		
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And there's also the question of 'how many of the nearly 600 came from care homes'!


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2020)

And now we have the WHO stating that it is unlikely that people with Covid who are asymptomatic pass the virus on to other people (BBC website).


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			And now we have the WHO stating that it is unlikely that people with Covid who are asymptomatic pass the virus on to other people (BBC website).
		
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I would of almost certainly got it from someone who was asymptomatic. Would love to see the research behind their statement.


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## Italian outcast (Jun 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			And now we have the WHO stating that it is unlikely that people with Covid who are asymptomatic pass the virus on to other people (BBC website).
		
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DanFST said:



			I would of almost certainly got it from someone who was asymptomatic. Would love to see the research behind their statement.
		
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I'm pretty certain that this statement at face value will be wrong - the BBC are reporting on the initial statement - meanwhile the twitter-sphere has been rightfully IMO ripping it to shreds all day


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			And now we have the WHO stating that it is unlikely that people with Covid who are asymptomatic pass the virus on to other people (BBC website).
		
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That's merely 'analysing statistics' about the way the disease interacts with folk it infects. WHO is learning more about how his virus works 'on the fly'. There may even be some commonality about the asymptomatic folk. It was this sort of analysis by Jenner that (eventually) saved millions from the now erradicated Smallpox! I'd suggest an analysis of what's 'common' about the asymptomatic folk would be worthwhile.


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2020)

This is the problem, the opening lines from the BBC article are as follows:

People with coronavirus but no symptoms infecting others is "very rare", a World Health Organization scientist has said.
Although a proportion of people test positive with no symptoms, it is believed these infections are mostly not passed on.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2020)

This debate about when the virus started will be a hot topic in US China talks this year


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2020)

Is it just me that thinks that, with the exception of the Chancellor, this entire UK Government have been promoted way above their pay scale.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it just me that thinks that, with the exception of the Chancellor, this entire UK Government have been promoted way above their pay scale.
		
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no just you and the others who winge about everything the government does


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it just me that thinks that, with the exception of the Chancellor, this entire UK Government have been promoted way above their pay scale.
		
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You couldn't possibly be referring to Sharma giving non-answers to questions he's asked...and that is not a whinge - it's an observable fact.  

Maybe the idea is that if enough of us start thinking 'what's the point' and stop watching, they'll pull the briefings as viewing figures don't make then worthwhile...oh hold on...


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## drdel (Jun 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You couldn't possibly be referring to Sharma giving non-answers to questions he's asked...
		
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Or the questioners wanted answers that depend upon the rate of the virus decline and thus, as they knew, he would not be able provide a definitive response. ITV'S questioners was on an ego trip.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For ministers and others struggling to understand what ministerial responsibility means - simply see Lord Carrington and the Falklands.

And so - over to Mr Gavin Williamson and the back-to-school shambles and his accusations of 'scaremongering' levelled at all those in the teaching profession who expressed great reservations over the practicalities...

Given this I am wondering how Williamson has got on working with schools in getting laptops to disadvantaged teenagers (announced 19th April) as that would seem to be critical now.
		
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Williamson shouldn't be anywhere near the top table... Period, end of...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			OK let us just ignore that the world is grappling with a pandemic caused by a new virus that has proven to be very virulent.

Yet, uniquely: you and HH assert the UK Government and scientists should have found a magical cure, they should all have predicted how long the gestation period would last. Those idiots should have been able to predicted exactly when and how much PPE, diagnostic capabilities each care home, hospital and School would need

According to you, Williamson is such an idiot because he and his advisors do not have at their finger tips the exact dimensions and demographics of each and every school or the timemap of infection's demography.

Research and learning is about doing stuff when you are not sure about what you doing!!
Criticism is right and proper but empty ranting is wasted effort.
		
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Like
But it doesn't matter as it's all the Tory's fault and of course had the election gone the other way the labour government would have been far better prepared to deal with a new, virulent virus that has managed to bring the nation to a virtual standstill. That despite the situation at the peak changing within a few hours they would somehow have been better equipped and able to source the resources needed.

The truth, however unpalatable to some, especially those upset at the Brexit and election outcomes, is no-one was fully prepared for this and the scale of the infection and frankly I feel that while mistakes have been made (and hopefully learned for a second wave or rise come the Winter) the Tory government have been on a hiding to nothing. I'd have said the same had labour been in power and rather than whinge at ministers performances at the daily briefings or changing decisions when seeing it is for the better good given the current situation. Some on here have done nothing but slate government performance but been very slow at providing a viable alternative to how it could have been handled differently


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it just me that thinks that, with the exception of the Chancellor, this entire UK Government have been promoted way above their pay scale.
		
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Nope!


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			OK let us just ignore that the world is grappling with a pandemic caused by a new virus that has proven to be very virulent.

Yet, uniquely: you and HH assert the UK Government and scientists should have found a magical cure, they should all have predicted how long the gestation period would last. Those idiots should have been able to predicted exactly when and how much PPE, diagnostic capabilities each care home, hospital and School would need

According to you, Williamson is such an idiot because he and his advisors do not have at their finger tips the exact dimensions and demographics of each and every school or the timemap of infection's demography.

Research and learning is about doing stuff when you are not sure about what you doing!!
Criticism is right and proper but empty ranting is wasted effort.
		
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Utter Twaddle!

Apart from the last sentence - which you should take as a mantra!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



Like
But it doesn't matter as it's all the Tory's fault and of course had the election gone the other way the labour government would have been far better prepared to deal with a new, virulent virus that has managed to bring the nation to a virtual standstill. That despite the situation at the peak changing within a few hours they would somehow have been better equipped and able to source the resources needed.

The truth, however unpalatable to some, especially those upset at the Brexit and election outcomes, is no-one was fully prepared for this and the scale of the infection and frankly I feel that while mistakes have been made (and hopefully learned for a second wave or rise come the Winter) the Tory government have been on a hiding to nothing. I'd have said the same had labour been in power and rather than whinge at ministers performances at the daily briefings or changing decisions when seeing it is for the better good given the current situation. Some on here have done nothing but slate government performance but been very slow at providing a viable alternative to how it could have been handled differently
		
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Nobody has ever said or even pretended Labour would of done better, they are not even mentioned in the post you are replying to!

And in your 2nd paragraph you say you’d of defended them!

What a ridiculous post! Utterly clueless.


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## drdel (Jun 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Utter Twaddle!

Apart from the last sentence - which you should take as a mantra!
		
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Well that's advanced the debate.

I used to tell my Masters and PhD students that is was generally better to be thought to be ignorant than provide evidence and prove it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter is in with the primary kids atm.
The biggest problem she says is because they are in “ bubbles” you need two adults to a class.
Going to the toilets and washing hands is like a military operation.
There is just not enough space for a one way system in the corridors.
It’s working ok now but they are at full capacity with only two year groups in and key workers children.
Politicians bitched enough about turning up in parliament last week to vote .
They don’t inhabit the real world ,,ok on paper But not in practice.
		
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HID works at an independent school so far smaller classes and she has said the bubbles are a mixed bag. The kids especially the smallest ones love it and suddenly everyone in it are new best friends. However for the TA, teachers and admin staff who have to deal with the bumps. scrapes and sickly it is a nightmare as is trying to get them to understand the instructions about SD and following arrows to simplify movement around the school is a nightmare. 

They only have 750 in total so far smaller than most schools but even then it isn't feasible to safely get them back safely. What happens when they decide to let children back to school again in terms of infection control etc.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it just me that thinks that, with the exception of the Chancellor, this entire UK Government have been promoted way above their pay scale.
		
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The only reason the chancellor comes across well imo is because he’s saying what the majority want to hear.


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			...I used to tell my Masters and PhD students that is was generally better to be thought to be ignorant than provide evidence and prove it.
		
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Then you should probably take your own advice and resist posting!

And at least acknowledge Abe for the initial quote!


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## rulefan (Jun 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Well that's advanced the debate.

I used to tell my Masters and PhD students that is was generally better to be thought to be ignorant than provide evidence and prove it.
		
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I reckon they would have known where it came from originally


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## rulefan (Jun 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Then you should probably take your own advice and resist posting!

And at least acknowledge Abe for the initial quote!
		
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Or Samuel Johnson or Mark Twain or ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Here's the thing. It's impossible to say how a Labour government would have handled it. Maybe better, maybe worse, we'll never know. But any objective analysis shows that, as a country, we have done pretty badly. Even if you take some of the stats from other countries with a pinch of salt I don't think that's an unfair assessment. We certainly have not done well and some other countries have done well.

You may be of the view that we all need to work together and not blame anyone just now and all will be investigated later. That's fair enough, I suppose, but for those who don't consider that to be the correct approach, who would like to continue to question policy so that the response can be as good as possible some dissent is only natural. In that context, of course the starting point is to hold the government to account where things have not gone well. Quite literally, _if anyone is to blame for how our country handled the situation_, it is the government.

In our case, we had a number of things in our favour such as forewarning by seeing what was happening in Italy before it reached us. There's a very viable alternative as to how it could have been handled and everyone knows it but ideology prevents some from crticising the government. We should have locked down sooner. And it's not hindsight to say that. I wanted it earlier, many companies (including mine) started to take steps earlier to move to social distancing and home working. If businesses could see it I cannot understand why the government didn't.

Even when Boris finally called his press conference and we all thought "this is the lockdown" he came up with the batshit crazy notion that "pubs can stay open but please don't go to them". And he was going around minimising the dangers saying how he visited a hospital and "shook hands with everyone". That was the key failure and everyone knows it. How many lives lost due to that delay? Sadly, that was baked in by the early indecision (or wrong decision depending on whether we believe it was early dithering or a deliberate strategy to ride it out without a lockdown).

In the meantime, they put some pretty strong measures in place to try and protect the economy and people's livelihoods and to support people in the meantime. And, with scrutiny and questioning, those measures were improved to help some in marginal situations that were missed by the original proposals. That's all good and, while it's too soon to say, there is every possibility that as a result the economic damage will be greatly reduced. But look at New Zealand, for example, imagine how much better our economy would have fared had we locked down hard and early and never allowed the virus to take hold. Not to mention the human cost.

Nobody is saying it's easy, nobody envies the sort of decisions the government are wrestling with but, ultimately, they are in charge and are therefore responsible. I'm afraid that comes with the job and anyone in government who doesn't know and accept that shouldn't be there. So credit, where it is due. And likewise criticism.

Frankly, I'm of the view that once they finally grasped the lockdown nettle they have started to fare much better. A few hiccups, obviously, lots of mixed messaging and some really poor communication but the trends are all heading in the right direction now. It's a challenge to start opening up without allowing the virus to take hold again and I'd probably have preferred they had delayed a bit longer but in these early stages it seems to be going ok. Fingers crossed it continues.
		
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I agree mistakes have been made and I agree that Johnson has made some weird and fanciful comments and handled it strangely at times. As an NHS worker this hasn't always filled us with confidence. My point, and I accept it's subjective is what would labour have done different and had they been in power would the same people who seem to be so keen to knock the ministers and everything the government is/isn't doing have been equally critical if their party (it's clearly apparent they aren't Tory supporters) have been supportive and less likely to complain?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think we need to deal with the reality of the situation instead of absolving one party because you assume another wouldn't have done any better. I told you what I think should have been done differently but I'm certainly not able to claim that Labour would have done it any more than the Conservatives did. It's ludicrous to say that people can't criticise the government unless they are Tory supporters.
		
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My point is there are some that seem to simply criticise the ministers (especially at briefings) and their own agenda has been clear to see. I'll leave it there but aside from that and although it's clearly not coming over I am agreeing with a lot of your points


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## MegaSteve (Jun 9, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Is he the one that was fired for leaking national security secrets?
		
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I don't believe anyone has openly said so... 
But, then again, no one has exactly denied it either...

He really shouldn't be anywhere near cabinet...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree mistakes have been made and I agree that Johnson has made some weird and fanciful comments and handled it strangely at times. As an NHS worker this hasn't always filled us with confidence. *My point, and I accept it's subjective is what would labour have done different and had they been in power would the same people who seem to be so keen to knock the ministers and everything the government is/isn't doing have been equally critical if their party (it's clearly apparent they aren't Tory supporters) have been supportive and less likely to complain?*

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Another poor post judging other posters by your standard.

Once again, nobody has ever, EVER, tried or attempted to to even insinuate Labour or any other Party would of done better.

You are playing silh and failing badly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I don't believe anyone has openly said so...
But, then again, no one has exactly denied it either...

He really shouldn't be anywhere near cabinet...
		
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Just the statement from Theresa May at the time:

In a meeting with Mr Williamson on Wednesday evening, Theresa May told him she had information that provided "compelling evidence" that he was responsible for the unauthorised disclosure.

In a letter confirming his dismissal, she said: "No other, credible version of events to explain this leak has been identified."


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## rudebhoy (Jun 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just the statement from Theresa May at the time:

In a meeting with Mr Williamson on Wednesday evening, Theresa May told him she had information that provided "compelling evidence" that he was responsible for the unauthorised disclosure.

In a letter confirming his dismissal, she said: "No other, credible version of events to explain this leak has been identified."
		
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He should have been standing trial for leaking state secrets, instead he sits on the naughty step for a couple of months, then walks back into Cabinet. It's a funny old world...


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's ludicrous to say that people can't criticise the government unless they are Tory supporters.
		
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Not sure, could be wrong, anyone has said that.

But a balanced commentary will always be more respected than a one-sided one, irrespective of a persons political leanings.

👍


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The only reason the chancellor comes across well imo is because he’s saying what the majority want to hear.
		
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Perhaps it is because we can actually understand what he says. Clear concise diction and instructions, spoken with confidence and conviction

The others mumble and bumble and err and um with little or no confidence and even in some cases fear.
The Home secretary seems to have everything written down in front of her and when someone asks a non conforming question she looks like a 5th former addressing a classroom.
How they ever got to where they are beggers belief.

Homer....that is their job, that is the core part of their being and why they were elected.
If they cannot communicate they chose a wrong career.


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Not sure, could be wrong, anyone has said that.

But a balanced commentary will always be more respected than a one-sided one, irrespective of a persons political leanings.

👍
		
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But who decides what a balanced commentary is?

If you ask everyone on this forum, then I’m pretty sure that the vast majority believe that they occupy the centre ground of British politics. The past 4 years on this forum would suggest that this simply can’t be true. 

So, if a large number of people can’t even fathom where they stand politically, then how can they understand what a balanced viewpoint is?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But who decides what a balanced commentary is?

If you ask everyone on this forum, then I’m pretty sure that the vast majority believe that they occupy the centre ground of British politics. The past 4 years on this forum would suggest that this simply can’t be true.

So, if a large number of people can’t even fathom where they stand politically, then how can they understand what a balanced viewpoint is?
		
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Most views are not that far apart, I would suggest the majority fall somewhere between centre left and centre right. Many of us are guilty of suggesting a post is left or right wing when they rarely are, the terms tend to be a reaction to someone using an opposing political view.

Mea culpa


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Most views are not that far apart, I would suggest the majority fall somewhere between centre left and centre right. Many of us are guilty of suggesting a post is left or right wing when they rarely are, the terms tend to be a reaction to someone using an opposing political view.

Mea culpa
		
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It would be interesting to poll the forum to find out where people think they stand. I suspect some of us would be very surprised by the results.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My point is there are some that seem to simply criticise the ministers (especially at briefings) and their own agenda has been clear to see. I'll leave it there but aside from that and although it's clearly not coming over I am agreeing with a lot of your points
		
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Indeed it is.  But they do have a habit of making it easy to wonder what they are doing...

However as someone who tends to be sensitive to such things, I have to be careful.  And so just because the government has decided against trying to get primary schools open for all pupils before the summer break, I recognise that they have* not *done a u-turn on their return to school plans.

Indeed as Johnson insisted today at PMQs when accused of such a u-turn by KS,  Johnson was absolutely correct in insisting the government had not done so; that they were sticking to their plan of 11th May.  How so?  Well the return-to-school for all primary pupils was just an "ambition".  Circumstances mean they haven't been able to achieve that ambition.

_Step two –Reception, Year 1 and Year 6 return to school on 1 June. From 15 June, schools will provide face-to-face contact time for years 10 and 12 who have key exams the following year._

_The government has also said that its "ambition" that all primary school children will return to school before the summer for a month, if feasible.  _

I don't know what's happened for the year 10 to 12s - maybe that's still happening.  And on the April 19th plan to provide 230,000 laptops to disadvantaged children? - 100,000 provided already apparently and so going to plan?

Though I do wish that Johnson would stop trying to show how clever he is by using words and phrases that the majority of us either don't understand or consider to be flummery (he's got me doing it... )


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I believe it was in the post I was replying to
		
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Ah, OK.

I've read that sentence, in the post you refer to, a few times now and read it as...

"Would Labour voters be as vocally critical if their party were making the same mistakes"

If that's the question then one could look at the response of the majority of Tory voters to get an idea. But we'll never truly know.

Of course there are always outliers


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			balanced commentary is?

If you ask everyone on this forum, then I’m pretty sure that the vast majority believe that they occupy the centre ground of British politics. The past 4 years on this forum would suggest that this simply can’t be true.

So, if a large number of people can’t even fathom where they stand politically, then how can they understand what a balanced viewpoint is?
		
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I would suggest most adults, if they are honest with themselves, can see balance where presented.


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I would suggest most adults, if they are honest with themselves, can see balance where presented.
		
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 I would suggest you spend a bit more time on this forum and disabuse yourself of such opinions bud 😉😂


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I would suggest you spend a bit more time on this forum and disabuse yourself of such opinions bud 😉😂
		
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Lol.

I spend too much as it is.

We could do videos of our golf swings to illustrate the difference between balanced and unbalanced.

Obviously I'll be the latter 😂


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It would be interesting to poll the forum to find out where people think they stand. I suspect some of us would be very surprised by the results.
		
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Yes, I agree. Many would think the majority are either related to Gengis Khan or Mau Tse-Tung.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2020)

I wonder what the world would think if current Parliamentary voting was streamed world wide.


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## Foxholer (Jun 10, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Or Samuel Johnson or Mark Twain or ?
		
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Indeed, I was always under the impression that it was Mark Twain, but my hurried 'instant' reference pointed to Abe.


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## DRW (Jun 10, 2020)

On my balance, I thought lockdown was being eased to quickly.

However with the daily infections still dropping fairly 'fast', I am fairly happy to admit I think I was wrong(thankfully grateful to be proved wrong). Along with many EU countries seeing the same trends.

Its dropping even in the face of people and media saying VE day, bank holiday, packed beaches etc, which I thought was an over reaction.

Does anyone still feel that the lockdown should not have been eased so quickly ? or is still being eased to quickly ?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2020)




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## larmen (Jun 10, 2020)

I would have thought that in a couple of these pictures he would be running in teh other direction, away from the bus.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2020)

This change to day (well from sat) is pathetically small

One of My colleagues did this from day one with her bf who is a police officer he didn't see how it was any different from them living together as they both lived alone 

So single grandparents can go see their loved ones...

Loophole already surely .. get one grandparent to move in.. the other can then visit as they live alone 

Just do the proper bubbles set out in the 52 page document a month ago 

We are apparently meeting the targets etc 

Proper 2 household bubbles


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Lol.

I spend too much as it is.

We could do videos of our golf swings to illustrate the difference between balanced and unbalanced.

Obviously I'll be the latter 😂
		
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I was trying to remember the dodgy swing tip I gave you a few years ago at Wallasey. Wasn’t particularly PC but I can’t remember what it was 🧐


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I was trying to remember the dodgy swing tip I gave you a few years ago at Wallasey. Wasn’t particularly PC but I can’t remember what it was 🧐
		
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Take up fishing?


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Take up fishing?
		
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Never mate. You’re too good to quit and go maggot drowning


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			This change to day (well from sat) is pathetically small

One of My colleagues did this from day one with her bf who is a police officer he didn't see how it was any different from them living together as they both lived alone

So single grandparents can go see their loved ones...

Loophole already surely .. get one grandparent to move in.. the other can then visit as they live alone

Just do the proper bubbles set out in the 52 page document a month ago

We are apparently meeting the targets etc

Proper 2 household bubbles
		
Click to expand...

They did explain the infection rates and 'R'  level are too high at the moment for relaxing further.
Of course its possible to bend the rules but that's a matter for our own conscience.


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## huds1475 (Jun 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Never mate. You’re too good to quit and go maggot drowning
		
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Now thats an unbalanced view.

Mentally unbalanced 😂


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They did explain the infection rates and 'R'  level are too high at the moment for relaxing further.
Of course its possible to bend the rules but that's a matter for our own conscience.
		
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The eyesight test as it's called


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## Wolf (Jun 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The eyesight test as it's called
		
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Its a ridiculous announcement, my wifes best friend is a nurse who has been interactive with thousands of people last 3 months, but she is also single so is now allowed to visit a family household of however many with no SD. Yet my wife who has not interacted with anyone cannot visit her family in the same way because we're married and live together.


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2020)

It's quite amazing that although common sense says that with a virulent virus it is wise to keep away from close contact with others as far as possible that people and the media are desperately eager to find loop holes to get around the common sense.

There is still one heck of a lot of people still getting infected and dying - and will be for sometime.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Its a ridiculous announcement, my wifes best friend is a nurse who has been interactive with thousands of people last 3 months, but she is also single so is now allowed to visit a family household of however many with no SD. Yet my wife who has not interacted with anyone cannot visit her family in the same way because we're married and live together.
		
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As always wolf the gov make a pointless announment that  with common sense it wouldn't  actually be needed .. if you live alone u could buddy up with someone who lived alone to cure loneliness and other bits surely. 

Another girl at work moved her mate in with her and her bf so she didn't have to live alone .


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## Wolf (Jun 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			As always wolf the gov make a pointless announment that  with common sense it wouldn't  actually be needed .. if you live alone u could buddy up with someone who lived alone to cure loneliness and other bits surely.

Another girl at work moved her mate in with her and her bf so she didn't have to live alone .
		
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Its yet another announcement that is going to create division across the country of people asking why can a single person who potentially has had lots of interaction through work, shopping etc be allowed to visit a household of unrestricted numbers with no social distancing at all, yet others like my parents as example literally haven't left their home or allowed anyone in cannot do the same and visit their grandkids because they happen to be married so therefore aren't classed as lonely.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2020)

Last week the leader of the opposition accused the PM of not listening to the teaching profession and are sending children back to school to early. This week the PM after listening to the teaching professionals has back tracked on the original plan and is accused by the leader of the opposition that he is not thinking about children's education.

I can only assume the opposition leader thinks nobody listens to his speeches.


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## larmen (Jun 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			It's quite amazing that although common sense says that with a virulent virus it is wise to keep away from close contact with others as far as possible that people and the media are desperately eager to find loop holes to get around the common sense.
		
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It’s the Cummings syndrome. We all now know that the virus can’t kill/infect if you find a loophole, even if just really stupid people believe and defend it.


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## pendodave (Jun 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			This change to day (well from sat) is pathetically small

One of My colleagues did this from day one with her bf who is a police officer he didn't see how it was any different from them living together as they both lived alone

So single grandparents can go see their loved ones...

Loophole already surely .. get one grandparent to move in.. the other can then visit as they live alone

Just do the proper bubbles set out in the 52 page document a month ago

We are apparently meeting the targets etc

Proper 2 household bubbles
		
Click to expand...

Lol.
10 million out of work
10 million nhs ops/appts missed 
10 million school children without education 
For what exactly? Hardly anyone who wasn't  about to die is taken by this. Even for them, it's currently barely 20% of daily deaths.  Did we stop anything for the other 1200 deaths a day? Smh. Madness.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Its yet another announcement that is going to create division across the country of people asking why can a single person who potentially has had lots of interaction through work, shopping etc be allowed to visit a household of unrestricted numbers with no social distancing at all, yet others like my parents as example literally haven't left their home or allowed anyone in cannot do the same and visit their grandkids because they happen to be married so therefore aren't classed as lonely.
		
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Only positive for me is the gazebo I bought for people to be able to come over in the poor weather within the guidelines wasn't a waste of money.

Can go American golf Monday but not in my mum's

For me it's like when you let the water out a hose slowly.. if you don't let out enough eventually the hose will come away from the tap.. little more leeway I reckon would make the "lockdown" more respected


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yes, I've reread it and agree with you. The point was more nuanced than I thought and didn't deserve me jumping on it. Sorry @HomerJSimpson 

Click to expand...

It's all good. Re-reading it again I am sure I could have made the point a lot better with less words


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Its a ridiculous announcement, my wifes best friend is a nurse who has been interactive with thousands of people last 3 months, but she is also single so is now allowed to visit a family household of however many with no SD. Yet my wife who has not interacted with anyone cannot visit her family in the same way because we're married and live together.
		
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To be fair Boris did explain why, he referred to some single old people who have been isolated for some time being allowed some contact with family.  There will always be anomalies in such rules, it's not possible to make it work for every case unless you just remove the rules.  The Government can only make a relaxation and explain how they would like it applied. I'm sure it wont be too long now before there will be more changes to bubble groups.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Only positive for me is the gazebo I bought for people to be able to come over in the poor weather within the guidelines wasn't a waste of money.

Can go American golf Monday but not in my mum's

For me it's like when you let the water out a hose slowly.. if you don't let out enough eventually the hose will come away from the tap.. little more leeway I reckon would make the "lockdown" more respected
		
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Dont you just turn down the tap?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The eyesight test as it's called
		
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No, just the 'R' level.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont you just turn down the tap?
		
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Not if you are round the front of the house.



SocketRocket said:



			No, just the 'R' level.
		
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Let's see if they actually react to the R number changes 

They can't afford the economy to tank further.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 10, 2020)

So it turns out that the cottage that Cummings stayed in at Durham was built by him without bothering to apply for planning permission, and he's never paid Council Tax on it. The guy really is a law unto himself!


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2020)

So Laura from the BBC asks why a group of 15 kids can't go INSIDE for several hours but are allowed OUTSIDE to go to a ZOO with their immediate household. Did it take her all day to think that question up?


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## rulefan (Jun 10, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So it turns out that the cottage that Cummings stayed in at Durham was built by him without bothering to apply for planning permission, and he's never paid Council Tax on it. The guy really is a law unto himself!
		
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Is the fact that it is on a farm relevant?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Is the fact that it is on a farm relevant?
		
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How would it be?

From what I've read, it's more of a country estate than a working farm. He also claimed it wasn't his second home as it is owned by his parents. Turns out his name is on the Land Registry records as part-owner ....


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2020)




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## huds1475 (Jun 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			So Laura from the BBC asks why a group of 15 kids can't go INSIDE for several hours but are allowed OUTSIDE to go to a ZOO with their immediate household. Did it take her all day to think that question up?
		
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I'm amazed she's not been 'pivoted' away from the front line by now


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			So Laura from the BBC asks why a group of 15 kids can't go INSIDE for several hours but are allowed OUTSIDE to go to a ZOO with their immediate household. Did it take her all day to think that question up?
		
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I think the point was that why are the government increasingly looking very incompetent and yet again flailing around for leadership when it comes to plans for children's education, which some may argue is quite important.  But we have some firm plans for visits to zoos. Which some may argue is not.  Unless I suppose the school is on a day trip to a zoo.  In which case well done Boris, tick that box and move on to not grasping the next topic.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the point was that why are the government increasingly looking very incompetent and yet again flailing around for leadership when it comes to plans for children's education, which some may argue is quite important.  But we have some firm plans for visits to zoos. Which some may argue is not.  Unless I suppose the school is on a day trip to a zoo.  In which case well done Boris, tick that box and move on to not grasping the next topic.
		
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I think some would say the issue with childrens education is a very difficult one and there is no simple solution to it with this virus still in a dangerous phase.  But hey ho let's put it down to incompetence .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I'm amazed she's not been 'pivoted' away from the front line by now
		
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And well done to LK and also to Beth Rigby of Sky News for refusing to be shut-down by Johnson during the briefing Q&A.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And well done to LK and also to Beth Rigby of Sky News for refusing to be shut-down by Johnson during the briefing Q&A.
		
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Yes well done for persisting with questions that have already been answered. 

I cannot see a single journalist who has emerged from these briefings with an enhanced reputation. 

Their failure to grasp even the most basic information, be it offered by the politicians or scientists is embarrassing. 

Far too interested in trying to promote themselves


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I'm amazed she's not been 'pivoted' away from the front line by now
		
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Has she been demoted, Was she their chief political editor, I noticed another Woman has that title.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How would it be?
		
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There may be exemptions for farm buildings in certain situations. I don't know the details.



			From what I've read, ......
		
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Always a guarantee of accuracy


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2020)

Planning is more relaxed for staff/family accommodation on farms but I would imagine that building on green belt still needs actual planning consent.


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## NearHull (Jun 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			So Laura from the BBC asks why a group of 15 kids can't go INSIDE for several hours but are allowed OUTSIDE to go to a ZOO with their immediate household. Did it take her all day to think that question up?
		
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Up to one or two months ago, I considered Laura to be a politically astute journalist who worked long hours, particularly during the Brexit issue, but now she has destroyed all her credibility by constantly asking such inane questions.  I do listen to the daily briefing but nowadays immediately turn off the tv after the two public questions have been answered ( or evaded).


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the point was that why are the government increasingly looking very incompetent and yet again flailing around for leadership when it comes to plans for children's education, which some may argue is quite important.  But we have some firm plans for visits to zoos. Which some may argue is not.  Unless I suppose the school is on a day trip to a zoo.  In which case well done Boris, tick that box and move on to not grasping the next topic.
		
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The "zoo" was merely an example of an outside family trip. You will have noticed the PM referred to the soon to be announced plans for how kids would get help to catch up: but keep up with the negative spin.


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## Paperboy (Jun 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the point was that why are the government increasingly looking very incompetent and yet again flailing around for leadership when it comes to plans for children's education, which some may argue is quite important.  But we have some firm plans for visits to zoos. Which some may argue is not.  Unless I suppose the school is on a day trip to a zoo.  In which case well done Boris, tick that box and move on to not grasping the next topic.
		
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Where do you think it's easier to socially distance in a classroom or at a zoo?

Experts have said for schools to function anywhere near ideal the SD would need to be 1m.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2020)

NearHull said:



			Up to one or two months ago, I considered Laura to be a politically astute journalist who worked long hours, particularly during the Brexit issue, but now she has destroyed all her credibility by constantly asking such inane questions.  I do listen to the daily briefing but nowadays immediately turn off the tv after the two public questions have been answered ( or evaded).
		
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I agree with that. Even just simple things, you get a wide spectrum on ministers every week each with their own department and each dealing with a more specialist area of response to the pandemic. Surely it does not take too much common sense to realise that the best option, the way of obtaining the best information, is to question each minister on the matters that their ministry is dealing with and then aim the broader or more political questions at the PM on Wednesday. It is really a waste to be questioning the culture secretary about minute details on track and trace or to be questioning the health secretary about details of the economic schemes put in place. It is not as if ministers are not there every week. You know that most weeks you will hear from the health secretary on Monday, the PM on Wednesday and then a mix of the Chancellor, business secretary, home secretary, culture secretary and a few others who are relevant for specific points.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Yes well done for persisting with questions that have already been answered.

I cannot see a single journalist who has emerged from these briefings with an enhanced reputation.

Their failure to grasp even the most basic information, be it offered by the politicians or scientists is embarrassing.

Far too interested in trying to promote themselves
		
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Except the subject being questioned is an ongoing one and therefore it is 100% appropriate to continue to ask the question on the current situation and what we can learn from how we did it previously - because the journalists fail to get an honest answer.

So what lessons have we learnt?  A very valid question.  Because if there is a second spike later this year we have to know that the government and their advisors have understood what they did not get right back in March - because they did NOT get it right so let's use hindsight to learn.  Tell us in advance - so that's now - what the governments strategy and plans are were a second spike to happen.  And tell us the 'why' - the rational around the plans - we are not stupid - and of course that 'why' is going to be linked back to what we did 'then'.  But we need honesty now from the government over what was done 'then' and why it didn't work - so we are accepting of the plans were there to be a second spike.  

Just be honest to yourself and others about the past.  Much better that way than being in denial about it.


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except the subject being questioned is an ongoing one and therefore it is 100% appropriate to continue to ask the question on the current situation and what we can learn from how we did it previously - because the journalists fail to get an honest answer.

So what lessons have we learnt?  A very valid question.  Because if there is a second spike later this year we have to know that the government and their advisors have understood what they did not get right back in March - because they did NOT get it right so let's use hindsight to learn.  Tell us in advance - so that's now - what the governments strategy and plans are were a second spike to happen.  And tell us the 'why' - the rational around the plans - we are not stupid - and of course that 'why' is going to be linked back to what we did 'then'.  But we need honesty now from the government over what was done 'then' and why it didn't work - so we are accepting of the plans were there to be a second spike. 

Just be honest to yourself and others about the past.  Much better that way than being in denial about it.
		
Click to expand...

You cannot analyse the "past " until the volatility of the process has subsided; that would be knee jerk policy making.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the point was that why are the government increasingly looking very incompetent and yet again flailing around for leadership when it comes to plans for children's education, which some may argue is quite important.  But we have some firm plans for visits to zoos. Which some may argue is not.  Unless I suppose the school is on a day trip to a zoo.  In which case well done Boris, tick that box and move on to not grasping the next topic.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I think some would say the issue with childrens education is a very difficult one and there is no simple solution to in with this virus still in a dangerous phase.  But hey ho let's put it down to incompetence .
		
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I actually have _some_ sympathy for the government on this issue. Their intentions are certainly fine, but there are so many permutations/combinations that it is very difficult to apply a simple policy to all circumstances. And they are 'implementing' a general policy with no pilot, so I actually expect some glitches. In IT terms (which I am far more familiar with) there'd be a vast amount of testing of the supposed 'finished' system before implementation. I'm pretty certain SILH would concur with similar 'projects' too. And these are with fairly well kinown 'boundaries', unlike the myriad of styles/formats/sizes/environmenmts of schools and the things that can happen with each. Compared to schools, most businesses are pretty simple, or even trivial, 'environments', so it's pretty simple for the business to define how to cope with the requirements.

I agree that 'leadership' is required, but it's not necessarily the Government that should be responsible. To me, Government should be setting a policy and individual schools should decide how to implement that policy in _their_ school. Heads, Governors and Staff should all be involved in formulating their particular implementation, though the Government can certainly help by providing checklists, guidelines, recommendations and the like - simply to minimise the numner of queries about individual circumstances that are bound to be raised. And that policy needs to be made available to parents - again, to avoid, or at least minimise the number of questions that will inevitably be generated.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			You cannot analyse the "past " until the volatility of the process has subsided; that would be knee jerk policy making.
		
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While I agree with that as a concept, I don't believe 'waiting for the volatility to subside' is an option! This is much more akin to a 'war' (or even 'battle') environment - where 'waiting for volatility to subside' isn't an option!


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I actually have _some_ sympathy for the government on this issue. Their intentions are certainly fine, but there are so many permutations/combinations that it is very difficult to apply a simple policy to all circumstances. And they are 'implementing' a general policy with no pilot, so I actually expect some glitches. In IT terms (which I am far more familiar with) there'd be a vast amount of testing of the supposed 'finished' system before implementation. I'm pretty certain SILH would concur with similar 'projects' too. And these are with fairly well kinown 'boundaries', unlike the myriad of styles/formats/sizes/environmenmts of schools and the things that can happen with each. Compared to schools, most businesses are pretty simple, or even trivial, 'environments', so it's pretty simple for the business to define how to cope with the requirements.

I agree that 'leadership' is required, but it's not necessarily the Government that should be responsible. To me, Government should be setting a policy and individual schools should decide how to implement that policy in _their_ school. Heads, Governors and Staff should all be involved in formulating their particular implementation, though the Government can certainly help by providing checklists, guidelines, recommendations and the like - simply to minimize the numner of queries about individual circumstances that are bound to be raised.
		
Click to expand...

This is where I am somewhat confused. I am not exonerating the Government in any way and I am not looking at this from a purely political standpoint. I suspect most businesses, as soon as lockdown started, began working on plans for re-opening, whether it could all be at once, whether it needed to be phased and these plans would have been tweaked and amended to take into account new guidelines and changes in developments. I know, for example, that my gym is drawing up new plans almost every week with various contingents for use of outside spaces etc. So, the question is, why have heads and local education authorities not been doing the same for their schools. I would expect each of them to have detailed plans in place for how many pupils they can take at present with social distancing, what other facilities they have or could be provided with that can increase that, how that changes with 1m social distancing etc. Schools are all different and unique and so should each have a full and detailed plan for what they can achieve at any given time.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is where I am somewhat confused. I am not exonerating the Government in any way and I am not looking at this from a purely political standpoint. I suspect most businesses, as soon as lockdown started, began working on plans for re-opening, whether it could all be at once, whether it needed to be phased and these plans would have been tweaked and amended to take into account new guidelines and changes in developments. I know, for example, that my gym is drawing up new plans almost every week with various contingents for use of outside spaces etc*. So, the question is, why have heads and local education authorities not been doing the same for their schools. *I would expect each of them to have detailed plans in place for how many pupils they can take at present with social distancing, what other facilities they have or could be provided with that can increase that, how that changes with 1m social distancing etc. Schools are all different and unique and so should each have a full and detailed plan for what they can achieve at any given time.
		
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I would expect they have been! At least as much as they are able to in their own lockdown environments!


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## huds1475 (Jun 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has she been demoted, Was she their chief political editor, I noticed another Woman has that title.
		
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IDK. 

Avoid her like the plague since she hit rock bottom during the Cummings interview and the week after. 

Pointless


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except the subject being questioned is an ongoing one and therefore it is 100% appropriate to continue to ask the question on the current situation and what we can learn from how we did it previously - because the journalists fail to get an honest answer.

So what lessons have we learnt?  A very valid question.  Because if there is a second spike later this year we have to know that the government and their advisors have understood what they did not get right back in March - because they did NOT get it right so let's use hindsight to learn.  Tell us in advance - so that's now - what the governments strategy and plans are were a second spike to happen.  And tell us the 'why' - the rational around the plans - we are not stupid - and of course that 'why' is going to be linked back to what we did 'then'.  But we need honesty now from the government over what was done 'then' and why it didn't work - so we are accepting of the plans were there to be a second spike. 

Just be honest to yourself and others about the past.  Much better that way than being in denial about it.
		
Click to expand...

You clearly don't understand. 

It is not the questioning that disappoints me.

It is the quality of the questions and the objectives of the questioners.

The Government may well be shown to have failed in certain areas when it is possible to judge but it is equally clear to me that the media are also letting us down.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Has she been demoted, Was she their *chief political editor*, I noticed another Woman has that title.
		
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Are you sure? Not Chief Political Correspondent?
She has been (tjhe) Political Editor (a singular role, so 'Chief' unnecessary) since 2015.
Who is the 'other Woman' with that title?


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2020)

and more bandwagon jumping. Now the Government is racist for testing the track and trace app on the Isle of Wight because the population is predominantly white. Nothing to do with it being a geographically sealed location that made it ideal for testing or anything, clearly it was chosen because of the ethnicity of the population (something that was also not mentioned for the last couple of months during the test but has only now come up)


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## huds1475 (Jun 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			and more bandwagon jumping. Now the Government is racist for testing the track and trace app on the Isle of Wight because the population is predominantly white. Nothing to do with it being a geographically sealed location that made it ideal for testing or anything, clearly it was chosen because of the ethnicity of the population (something that was also not mentioned for the last couple of months during the test but has only now come up)
		
Click to expand...

God help us all


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is where I am somewhat confused. I am not exonerating the Government in any way and I am not looking at this from a purely political standpoint. I suspect most businesses, as soon as lockdown started, began working on plans for re-opening, whether it could all be at once, whether it needed to be phased and these plans would have been tweaked and amended to take into account new guidelines and changes in developments. I know, for example, that my gym is drawing up new plans almost every week with various contingents for use of outside spaces etc. So, the question is, w*hy have heads and local education authorities not been doing the same for their schools. I would expect each of them to have detailed plans in place for how many pupils they can take at present with social distancing, what other facilities they have or could be provided with that can increase that, how that changes with 1m social distancing etc. Schools are all different and unique and so should each have a full and detailed plan for what they can achieve at any given time.*

Click to expand...

Trust me, many heads have not had a day off since the February half term as they have been juggling the needs of providing some form of education for kids at home and also for the needs of the kids of key workers.  It has been a logistical feat involving many risk assessments and many hours of consulting and planning, changing curriculums and timetables, just to be able to provide some form of education to the years that have been instructed to come back.  So expecting them to do any form of detailed scenario planning on top of that with constantly changing guidelines is unrealistic.

Due to many factors including the funding of education, many primary schools simply do not have the resources or people to do lots of planning on top of what they are currently doing. The vast majority of heads are currently doing work that is not in their job description and are adapting brilliantly. All under a backdrop that is being played out in the national press with, to be honest, some absolutely shockingly bad politicized reporting. The head at my school, and I know many others, have been working ridiculous hours, they simply do not have the capacity to do more.  And the worrying thing is that the hard work hasn't even started properly yet as the effort involved to ensure we do not have a lost generation of kids will be massive.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			and more bandwagon jumping. Now the Government is racist for testing the track and trace app on the Isle of Wight because the population is predominantly white. Nothing to do with it being a geographically sealed location that made it ideal for testing or anything, clearly it was chosen because of the ethnicity of the population (something that was also not mentioned for the last couple of months during the test but has only now come up)
		
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Oh! And it's 100% 'Wight'!


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree with that as a concept, I don't believe 'waiting for the volatility to subside' is an option! This is much more akin to a 'war' (or even 'battle') environment - where 'waiting for volatility to subside' isn't an option!
		
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Yes but military planning is based on intelligence about enemy capability and "left and right of arc" detailled planning assumptions and Ops exercises. This virus was novel and the world's defence capability lacked much intelligence.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes but military planning is based on intelligence about enemy capability and "left and right of arc" detailled planning assumptions and Ops exercises. This virus was novel and the world's defence capability lacked much intelligence.
		
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Which is part of the reason that a certain amount of 'floundering' is actually 'permissable' (at least, imo!)! And changes of tack actually indicate strength of leadership as opposed to the normal ministerial approach of blinkered adherance to 'policy' that normally applies!

What HAS been noticeable (from the 'Daily briefings) is how shallow the 'quality' of the Cabinet actually is - at least in their presentation! While I haven't observed every one of them, only Raab seems 'proper' quality - and he wasn't great at the start either. Gove has undoubted strengths, but has a far too combative/electioneering attitude for me!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2020)

You would think that one of the divvies advising Johnson would have flagged up that 'astonishing' was not a great word to used when describing his governments ability to halt Covid 19.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You would think that one of the divvies advising Johnson would have flagged up that 'astonishing' was not a great word to used when describing his governments ability to halt Covid 19.
		
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..and they might also have advised Johnson against accusing Keir Starmer of inconsistency during PMQs - what the public want, said he, is consistency.  Yes indeedy we do.  And of course we _do _get consistency from Johnson and the government - but not always of the sort we might 100% appreciate and that does them any great favours with many.  

Actually all I really want is simply clarity of a plan and execution - and honest feedback on how things are going or went.  Yes of course there is going to be huge uncertainty and problems around some of the measures that are planned or implemented - I get that.  

But let's just not have avoidable missteps being portrayed as things that couldn't be avoided due to these uncertainties.  Let's just have a bit of honesty over what worked, what didn't, and why; what we'd do different - and sight of lessons being learned for the next time - which may only be a few months away.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Actually all I really want is simply clarity of a plan
		
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How do they produce a definitive plan when they haven't got all the information? Different countries are doing or have done different things with differing effects. Scientists all over the world are giving conflicting advice.
I can't see any professional planner making a medium or long term plan given the data available. And a short term plan can only be speculative. The virus has not signed up to be consistent in its future actions.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How do they produce a definitive plan when they haven't got all the information? Different countries are doing or have done different things with differing effects. Scientists all over the world are giving conflicting advice.
I can't see any professional planner making a medium or long term plan given the data available. And a short term plan can only be speculative. The virus has not signed up to be consistent in its future actions.
		
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We do not even know what the official advice was in the early days. There are reports that the advice from the higher ranking scientific advisors was to not lockdown and go for herd immunity.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Which is part of the reason that a certain amount of 'floundering' is actually 'permissable' (at least, imo!)! And changes of tack actually indicate strength of leadership as opposed to the normal ministerial approach of blinkered adherance to 'policy' that normally applies!

*What HAS been noticeable (from the 'Daily briefings) is how shallow the 'quality' of the Cabinet actually is - at least in their presentation!* While I haven't observed every one of them, only Raab seems 'proper' quality - and he wasn't great at the start either. Gove has undoubted strengths, but has a far too combative/electioneering attitude for me!
		
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They are there for one reason. Then along came a situation that would severely test any administration. Some have stepped up to the plate and dealt with it as well as possible. Some have managed to get the highest death toll in Europe and will be hit the worst in Europe from an economic standpoint according to some forecasts. 

Still, according to some Dianne Abbott would have been worse so its all OK.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			and more bandwagon jumping. Now the Government is racist for testing the track and trace app on the Isle of Wight because the population is predominantly white. Nothing to do with it being a geographically sealed location that made it ideal for testing or anything, clearly it was chosen because of the ethnicity of the population (something that was also not mentioned for the last couple of months during the test but has only now come up)
		
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Got a link for this story?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trust me, many heads have not had a day off since the February half term as they have been juggling the needs of providing some form of education for kids at home and also for the needs of the kids of key workers.  It has been a logistical feat involving many risk assessments and many hours of consulting and planning, changing curriculums and timetables, just to be able to provide some form of education to the years that have been instructed to come back.  So expecting them to do any form of detailed scenario planning on top of that with constantly changing guidelines is unrealistic.

Due to many factors including the funding of education, many primary schools simply do not have the resources or people to do lots of planning on top of what they are currently doing. The vast majority of heads are currently doing work that is not in their job description and are adapting brilliantly. All under a backdrop that is being played out in the national press with, to be honest, some absolutely shockingly bad politicized reporting. The head at my school, and I know many others, have been working ridiculous hours, they simply do not have the capacity to do more.  And the worrying thing is that the hard work hasn't even started properly yet as the effort involved to ensure we do not have a lost generation of kids will be massive.
		
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Spot on .
My wife has been on zoom constantly with the school staff trying to get as many kids in as possible.
But your “Johnny has x amount of class rooms sum” dosnt seem to be understood.
You can only get so many kids in safely.
This is not being accepted by many .


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			...
Still, according to some Dianne Abbott would have been worse so its all OK. 

Click to expand...

Is it any surprise that she was my first thought of who would be Labour's most embarrassing rep! Especially if numbers were involved!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Got a link for this story?
		
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This is where it stems from:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271047541828784128


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Got a link for this story?
		
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Posted it somewhere previously on this thread about a week ago


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## rudebhoy (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This is where it stems from:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271047541828784128

Click to expand...

His question was reasonable as was Gove's reply, but his tweet is a nonsense. Playing to the gallery there.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Posted it somewhere previously on this thread about a week ago
		
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Sorry replying to wrong post, as quoted above


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This is where it stems from:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271047541828784128

Click to expand...

*Dr Yvonne Doyle, Medical Director and Director of Health Protection at Public Health England said:*

“Alongside the NHS Covid-19 app, PHE’s phone and web-based contact tracing will be a critical part of the Government’s strategy to get the country back on its feet.

“Taking these first steps on the Isle of Wight will help us prepare for a scale up of our contact tracing capacity, with an 18,000 strong team ensuring the contacts of confirmed COVID-19 cases are followed up and given the information they need.”

The government has collaborated internationally and learned from examples of best practice across the world, which has informed the development of a bespoke approach that is right for the unique needs of the UK. The app uses similar Bluetooth Low Energy technology to that employed by Australia, Norway, and Singapore among others.

The privacy and security of users’ data is a priority and NHSX has involved experts from the National Cyber Security Centre to advise on best practice through the app’s development. Data will only ever be used for NHS care, management, evaluation and research and the NHS will comply fully with the law around its use, including the Data Protection Act.
*
The Isle of Wight was chosen to trial the project because it has a single NHS Trust that covers all NHS services on the island.

Its geography as an island with a sizeable population makes it an ideal place to introduce the NHS COVID-19 app and wider testing service in its initial roll-out period.*

I wonder if Afzal Khan has any scientific basis for his claims? If he hasn't then given the current climate he should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.


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## huds1475 (Jun 11, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wonder if Afzal Khan has any scientific basis for his claims? If he hasn't then given the current climate he should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.
		
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What a whopper.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



*Dr Yvonne Doyle, Medical Director and Director of Health Protection at Public Health England said:*

“Alongside the NHS Covid-19 app, PHE’s phone and web-based contact tracing will be a critical part of the Government’s strategy to get the country back on its feet.

“Taking these first steps on the Isle of Wight will help us prepare for a scale up of our contact tracing capacity, with an 18,000 strong team ensuring the contacts of confirmed COVID-19 cases are followed up and given the information they need.”

The government has collaborated internationally and learned from examples of best practice across the world, which has informed the development of a bespoke approach that is right for the unique needs of the UK. The app uses similar Bluetooth Low Energy technology to that employed by Australia, Norway, and Singapore among others.

The privacy and security of users’ data is a priority and NHSX has involved experts from the National Cyber Security Centre to advise on best practice through the app’s development. Data will only ever be used for NHS care, management, evaluation and research and the NHS will comply fully with the law around its use, including the Data Protection Act.

*The Isle of Wight was chosen to trial the project because it has a single NHS Trust that covers all NHS services on the island.*

*Its geography as an island with a sizeable population makes it an ideal place to introduce the NHS COVID-19 app and wider testing service in its initial roll-out period.*

I wonder if Afzal Khan has any scientific basis for his claims? If he hasn't then given the current climate he should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.
		
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I do believe there are or have been reports of Covid-19 disproportionally affecting the BAME Community, but I don’t believe for one minute there were any racial reasons for choosing the Isle of Wight.

To Joe Average the reason the Isle of Wight was chosen makes perfect sense, but unfortunately we will always have those in society who like to look for and try to justify conspirancey theories in everything their opposition do.

Thankfully his question and tweet will be forgotten about very quickly.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I do believe there are or have been reports of Covid-19 disproportionally affecting the BAME Community, but I don’t believe for one minute there were any racial reasons for choosing the Isle of Wight.

To Joe Average the reason the Isle of Wight was chosen makes perfect sense, but unfortunately we will always have those in society who like to look for and try to justify conspirancey theories in everything their opposition do.

Thankfully his question and tweet will be forgotten about very quickly.
		
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I've seen that too.  I've also seen today that people of blood group O are 20% less likely to catch it.  Which means that statistically some or all of the other blood groups are more likely to catch it.  So if BAME were over-represented in one of the blood groups more susceptible to catching Covid 19, that might explain the disproportionate effect.  Like blood group B?  Given that this virus seems to affect the blood, I also raised the question of whether sickle cell disease, more prevalent in the BAME community, will also affect the figures?

Unfortunately, Afzal Khan's quote will be remembered by those looking to denigrate this particular cause and by giving them ammunition he has been exceptionally stupid.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 11, 2020)

There has definitely been a trait with BAME, and to a degree gender and age brackets within that, certainly within the cases that have come via ICU and I'd suggest their outcome and length of stay are out of line with other ethnic groups


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I've seen that too.  I've also seen today that people of blood group O are 20% less likely to catch it.  Which means that statistically some or all of the other blood groups are more likely to catch it.
		
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It seems that my blood group of A is the most likely to catch it.


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It seems that my blood group of A is the most likely to catch it.
		
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That's me done for to then...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That's me done for to then...
		
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I’ll delete the petition then.


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## Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ll delete the petition then.

Click to expand...

Keep it going it may help with the funeral costs 😂


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I've seen that too.  I've also seen today that people of blood group O are 20% less likely to catch it.  Which means that statistically some or all of the other blood groups are more likely to catch it.  So if BAME were over-represented in one of the blood groups more susceptible to catching Covid 19, that might explain the disproportionate effect.  Like blood group B?  Given that this virus seems to affect the blood, I also raised the question of whether sickle cell disease, more prevalent in the BAME community, will also affect the figures?

Unfortunately, Afzal Khan's quote will be remembered by those looking to denigrate this particular cause and by giving them ammunition he has been exceptionally stupid.
		
Click to expand...

According to my Indian friends, the Indian race, are known/thought to have a slight genetic difference that makes them more susceptible to diabetes which in turn makes them more vulnerable if they catch covid, he also says that they generally do not prioritise keeping fit as much as, say, we Europeans do as possibly being another factor.


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## pendodave (Jun 12, 2020)

Talk about fiddling while Rome burns.
20% contraction of the uk economy.
Cancer treatments effectively closed down for months.
I'm genuinely mystified that the politicos on here are still argueing the minutae of this when the cure for covud is (predictably) doing many orders of magnitute more damage than the disease itself.
Waje up for goodness sake you fools!!


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## AmandaJR (Jun 12, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It seems that my blood group of A is the most likely to catch it.
		
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Yikes...


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## Ethan (Jun 12, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Talk about fiddling while Rome burns.
20% contraction of the uk economy.
Cancer treatments effectively closed down for months.
I'm genuinely mystified that the politicos on here are still argueing the minutae of this when the cure for covud is (predictably) doing many orders of magnitute more damage than the disease itself.
Waje up for goodness sake you fools!!
		
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This is simply not true. One of the lessons of the 1919 Spanish flu was that US cities that closed down fast and hard had the fewest deaths and the fastest economic recovery. Those who prevaricated on closedown and/or opened up too soon had a protracted and much more harmful course. The effects on the economy are bad, and we will al pay for it, but if you think they can't get any worse you are sadly mistaken.


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## pendodave (Jun 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This is simply not true. One of the lessons of the 1919 Spanish flu was that US cities that closed down fast and hard had the fewest deaths and the fastest economic recovery. Those who prevaricated on closedown and/or opened up too soon had a protracted and much more harmful course. The effects on the economy are bad, and we will al pay for it, but if you think they can't get any worse you are sadly mistaken.
		
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We'll have to disagree on this. There uys no sign of a wave of deaths across the bulk of the population in any countries afaik.  Comparisons with Spanish flu are frankly ridiculous. If you're not very old or ill you are beyond unlikely to die of this.
On the other hand, a great many will die and have lives ruined by our current approach.
For me, the lockdown is going to kill more than the covid. And millions of those it doesn't kill by withdrawal of the nhs will have lives ruined by the educational and economic consequences.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 12, 2020)

And today comes the first "we need a public inquiry into the Covid-19 outbreak".   

OK, it is a virus that came from elsewhere in the world and that is contagious and has proven to be fatal in many cases.      End of inquiry.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			And today comes the first "we need a public inquiry into the Covid-19 outbreak". 

OK, it is a virus that came from elsewhere in the world and that is contagious and has proven to be fatal in many cases.      End of inquiry.
		
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I thought I'd been told on here by a few people that now is not the time to judge how well the government is doing and to just get behind them.  The time for assessing how well they have done will come later when we are out of this in some form of inquiry.  So are we saying we can't have that either? Oh well, I will just have to assume they did a fantastic job as all the evidence is pointing that way.


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## GB72 (Jun 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I thought I'd been told on here by a few people that now is not the time to judge how well the government is doing and to just get behind them.  The time for assessing how well they have done will come later when we are out of this in some form of inquiry.  So are we saying we can't have that either? Oh well, I will just have to assume they did a fantastic job as all the evidence is pointing that way.
		
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I agree that an inquiry in needed and will happen but only when there is more time on the Parliamentary slate for it. People are calling for one to start now when pretty much all parliamentary capacity is taken up by Covid and Brexit negotiations. Yes, an inquiry should happen but I would suggest it needs to be further down the line once we are out of woods on these 2 matters.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I agree that an inquiry in needed and will happen but only when there is more time on the Parliamentary slate for it. People are calling for one to start now when pretty much all parliamentary capacity is taken up by Covid and Brexit negotiations. Yes, an inquiry should happen but I would suggest it needs to be further down the line once we are out of woods on these 2 matters.
		
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It’s going to be several years before we’re out of the woods on these 2 matters. And by then we’ll have buggered up something else. Meanwhile we’ll be waiting patiently for the Russia Report to be released and then the Inquiry into the Brexit Farce to be started.

So, the families of those 60,000 plus people will have to wait until when? 2025? 2030?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I agree that an inquiry in needed and will happen but only when there is more time on the Parliamentary slate for it. People are calling for one to start now when pretty much all parliamentary capacity is taken up by Covid and Brexit negotiations. Yes, an inquiry should happen but I would suggest it needs to be further down the line once we are out of woods on these 2 matters.
		
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The call for an enquiry this morning has come from over 400 bereaved families.

I agree now is not the time, but I’m, currently, lucky in the fact I’ve not lost anyone, they may all be still hurting and looking for answers.

Good luck to them if it gives them some hope and focus.


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## GB72 (Jun 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The call for an enquiry this morning has come from over 400 bereaved families.

I agree now is not the time, but I’m, currently, lucky in the fact I’ve not lost anyone, they may all be still hurting and looking for answers.

Good luck to them if it gives them some hope and focus.
		
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I do fully agree, as a bereaved family you are going to be looking for answers and much of that is going to be focused around care homes I suspect. Certainly not denying the argument for an inquiry but do see the need for realism in relation ot the timing of it and now is probably not the best time so far as it would take resources away from dealing with the current issues.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It’s going to be several years before we’re out of the woods on these 2 matters. And by then we’ll have buggered up something else. Meanwhile we’ll be waiting patiently for the *Russia Report *to be released and then the Inquiry into the Brexit Farce to be started.

So, the families of those 60,000 plus people will have to wait until when? 2025? 2030?
		
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aah the Russia report.  I forgot about that.  Which was probably the governments intention. Sneaky buggers.....


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It’s going to be several years before we’re out of the woods on these 2 matters. And by then we’ll have buggered up something else. Meanwhile we’ll be waiting patiently for the Russia Report to be released and then the Inquiry into the Brexit Farce to be started.

So, the families of those 60,000 plus people will have to wait until when? 2025? 2030?
		
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But the scientists and medical industry will not stop. The research impetus would wide has a momentum and eye to profit. Governments across the would may agonise but its business and scientist that will drive solutions not political whinging.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			But the scientists and medical industry will not stop. The research impetus would wide has a momentum and eye to profit. Governments across the would may agonise but its business and scientist that will drive solutions not political whinging.
		
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I'm not sure that I'm reading this correctly, but you appear to be saying that we should be completely ignoring the possibility that poor decisions from the Government could have directly resulted in the deaths of thousands of people. That identifying and learning from possible mistakes is "Government agonising" and "Political whinging"?

Well, my wife (an NHS worker) lost a friend to this disease. A paramedic who had no underlying healthcare issues prior to contracting the virus. I'd be quite interested in finding out if everything reasonably practicable had been done prior to this.


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not sure that I'm reading this correctly, but you appear to be saying that we should be completely ignoring the possibility that poor decisions from the Government could have directly resulted in the deaths of thousands of people. That identifying and learning from possible mistakes is "Government agonising" and "Political whinging"?

Well, my wife (an NHS worker) lost a friend to this disease. A paramedic who had no underlying healthcare issues prior to contracting the virus. I'd be quite interested in finding out if everything reasonably practicable had been done prior to this.
		
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No i am not saying we ignore a review of decisions. But I think the political aspects are less important than rational deductive lessons learnt by scientists and medical industry generating cures, treatments and vaccines.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			No i am not saying we ignore a review of decisions. But I think the political aspects are less important that lessons learnt by scientist and medical industry generating cures, treatments and vaccines.
		
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But the people holding a review are different to the people working on treatments. Both can be done at the same time.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2020)

Looks like there's a lot of pressure to reduce the social distancing measures from 2m to 1m to help businesses. Will be interesting to see if the government can find some experts to publicly back this move as the current scientific view seems to be that we need to keep it at 2m.


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## Wolf (Jun 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Looks like there's a lot of pressure to reduce the social distancing measures from 2m to 1m to help businesses. *Will be interesting to see if the government can find some experts to publicly back this move* as the current scientific view seems to be that we need to keep it at 2m.
		
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Easily done considering thats the exact advice the WHO experts have been advocating of 1m since the start..


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 13, 2020)

COMING SOON TO MAGAZINES AND TV CHANNELS NEAR YOU 

"Did you lose a family member to Covid-19?   Then you can sue the Government for compensation.    No win no fee.   Sign up today.    (We only take 50% of the paid out amount).

Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Run Solicitors.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Looks like there's a lot of pressure to reduce the social distancing measures from 2m to 1m to help businesses. Will be interesting to see if the government can find some experts to publicly back this move as the current scientific view seems to be that we need to keep it at 2m.
		
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WHO advice is 1m, most of Europe is 1m. Easy to change the distance and back it up if they want to. At 2m we are in the minority.

Economically we need to move to 1m, at this point health wise we probably need to stay ar 2m. It's a very tough decision for the govt


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

Pretty shameful that scientists / medical experts have been dropped from the daily briefings for dating to suggest that lockdown rules apply to all. 

Ruth May was asked by a SPAD in a "practice questions"' session on 3rd June whether she would support Cummings' actions if the question came up. When she said her answer would be as above, she was dropped from that day's broadcast, and Hancock had to present the slides. When asked by the press where she was, a spokesman said "she was out saving lives".

Jonathan Van-Tam has not been seen since he was asked on 30 May about Cummings and said the rules were there to benefit all and applied to all.

Separately, there does seem to be a conscious effort by the government to distance itself from the expert medical advice, pushing ahead with easing the lockdown despite the experts stating the threat level is unchanged at 4.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 13, 2020)

I do wonder if something has been lost in translation, if everyone maintained a 1m personal space there would be a 2m gap. Simple radius versus diameter problem. 

I’d hope it was obvious but given some of the emerging policies, patterns and people involved I’m starting to question whether something very basic has been misunderstood.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			WHO advice is 1m, most of Europe is 1m. Easy to change the distance and back it up if they want to. At 2m we are in the minority.

Economically we need to move to 1m, at this point health wise we probably need to stay ar 2m. It's a very tough decision for the govt
		
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Remember when this all started, and questions were being asked why we were doing things differently? The answer was "we have the best experts in the world". Not sure that is still the view in Number 10.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Remember when this all started, and questions were being asked why we were doing things differently? The answer was "we have the best experts in the world". Not sure that is still the view in Number 10.
		
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Number 10 just don't listen to said experts .. as per the 2016 pandemic test I believe it was where these failing were highlighted for supply of PPE etc but money rules all.

At the start of this wasn't it 1.5m we started with? Then upped to 2m. Whilst the WHO states 1m


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## rulefan (Jun 13, 2020)

Judging by many people's current operation of the 2m rule I reckon that we will end up with 0.5m _effective_ distancing with any change.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Judging by many people's current operation of the 2m rule I reckon that we will end up with 0.5m _effective_ distancing with any change.
		
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Unfortunately I think you are right.

The main shopping street in our town has very narrow pavements. Ahead of the shops reopening next week, the council are planning on making it one way (heading south), with the northbound lane and the adjacent parking spaces being designated a pedestrianised area. I think it's a great idea, but FB is full of complaints about the loss of the parking. There is plenty free parking within 5 minutes walk. Some people just don't get it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 13, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			I do wonder if something has been lost in translation, if everyone maintained a 1m personal space there would be a 2m gap. Simple radius versus diameter problem.

I’d hope it was obvious but given some of the emerging policies, patterns and people involved I’m starting to question whether something very basic has been misunderstood.
		
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You have a good point, but like all reasonable explanations, they go out the window when people want to "interpret" to satisfy their wants.
Of course, publicans pressing for the 1 metre have the health of the public in mind🙄 . But their one metre won't be the one you describe.
Jeez, surely everyone knows it's a matter of how close to people you need  *not *to be so that you are not breathing their expelled air. ( and IMHO, it isn't the proposed 1 metre).Anything else is compromise .


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Judging by many people's current operation of the 2m rule I reckon that we will end up with 0.5m _effective_ distancing with any change.
		
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That's for me entirely why we brought in the 2m rule and not the 1m

Half the population can't stick to it


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## drdel (Jun 13, 2020)

To heck with the Government advice, note the word is "advice" why would anyone with any common sense voluntarily want to be within 2m of strangers? 

If you need or expect to be closer for more than 10-15 minutes the "advice" is to it take protective measures. Perhaps we should wait for the PM to gives us all nappy changing advice!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

Some are missing the point of the 2m - 1m discussion, it is not the public that have the issue, it is the business owners who are pushing for the change!

They are doing it to try and get the industries going again that are suffering badly!

Comments about the public and their issues with the distance is deflecting from the discussion.


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## drdel (Jun 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Some are missing the point of the 2m - 1m discussion, it is not the public that have the issue, it is the business owners who are pushing for the change!

They are doing it to try and get the industries going again that are suffering badly!

Comments about the public and their issues with the distance is deflecting from the discussion.
		
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There is copiuos advice on the Government website for businesses where the 2m recommendation is impossible. 

For pubs and stuff it will relax when infection rate is down. Surely the 'public' may want to be careful and not add to their infection risk just because it is allowed.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's for me entirely why we brought in the 2m rule and not the 1m

Half the population can't stick to it
		
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Exactly this. Psychologists call it the Barnard Castle effect.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 13, 2020)

How many pepole can honestly say once they're in supermarkets the 2M rule is strictly followed.Seems to be the queue s outside and the checkout s are but other than that,no. I see the same problems in other strores as they open and pubs just won't work like that especially at last orders .


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## rulefan (Jun 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Surely the 'public' may want to be careful and not add to their infection risk just because it is allowed.
		
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More likely -* some of the 'public' may ........*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is copiuos advice on the Government website for businesses where the 2m recommendation is impossible.

For pubs and stuff it will relax when infection rate is down. Surely the 'public' may want to be careful and not add to their infection risk just because it is allowed.
		
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As seen with all Government advice 95% will comply or at least try to comply, the whole 2m reduced to 1m has been big business led.

If the limit stays at 2m or moves to 1m and pubs get to open, the same people will still use them regardless of Government advice, it’s still not a campaign that has been led by the public.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2020)

Government happy to watch shops and small businesses spend time and money to alter their space to accommodate 2m then before opening announce that it will shortly be 1m.
Left hand say hello to right hand..


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Government happy to watch shops and small businesses spend time and money to alter their space to accommodate 2m then before opening announce that it will shortly be 1m.
Left hand say hello to right hand..
		
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Isn't the same advice being given by your First Minister - don't bother answering, you never do


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## drdel (Jun 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Government happy to watch shops and small businesses spend time and money to alter their space to accommodate 2m then before opening announce that it will shortly be 1m.
Left hand say hello to right hand..
		
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A sensible business might look at the cost of compliance now at 2m compared to the cost of waiting until the distance /conditions relax. Bearing in mind if they open they pay 100% of wages but if they wait the delay period will cost 20%.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			How many pepole can honestly say once they're in supermarkets the 2M rule is strictly followed.Seems to be the queue s outside and the checkout s are but other than that,no. I see the same problems in other strores as they open and pubs just won't work like that especially at last orders .
		
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Had a complete idiot in petrol garage other day 

Lines on floor with one way system from till 

I reach front ... Pay.. turn round this idiot walking up the exit part .. doesn't even realise 

Some people just need to wake up and realise what's around them


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2020)

pendodave said:



			We'll have to disagree on this. There uys no sign of a wave of deaths across the bulk of the population in any countries afaik.  Comparisons with Spanish flu are frankly ridiculous. If you're not very old or ill you are beyond unlikely to die of this.
On the other hand, a great many will die and have lives ruined by our current approach.
For me, the lockdown is going to kill more than the covid. And millions of those it doesn't kill by withdrawal of the nhs will have lives ruined by the educational and economic consequences.
		
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Do tell the Govt that comparison with Spanish flu are ridiculous. That is what the Ferguson mathematical model is based on. You are simply wrong to say this only affects the very old or already ill. 

Fears of a second wave have been focussed on September, but there are reports from China of new outbreaks. 

Please explain the mechanisms of death from our current approach. Unfocussed anger is not a valid cause.


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## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Government happy to watch shops and small businesses spend time and money to alter their space to accommodate 2m then before opening announce that it will shortly be 1m.
Left hand say hello to right hand..
		
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It's generally very simple to reduce 'social distance' from 2 to 1m but not so simple (though can be) to increase it from 1 to 2m!


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## larmen (Jun 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Judging by many people's current operation of the 2m rule I reckon that we will end up with 0.5m _effective_ distancing with any change.
		
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The issue with any distance is that we as human are very bad at guessing it. You can see it everywhere. Passing a cyclist in a car, asking for a gimme, ...

I think they said 2 in the hope that 1 is maintained.


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## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I thought I'd been told on here by a few people that now is not the time to judge how well the government is doing and to just get behind them.  The time for assessing how well they have done will come later when we are out of this in some form of inquiry.  So are we saying we can't have that either? Oh well, I will just have to assume they did a fantastic job as all the evidence is pointing that way.
		
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That might be true if we were 'back to normal' and things were going swimmingly! But we are nowhere near that stage yet! 
It seems to me that folk *are* thinking the worst is over and we can get back to 'normal' very quickly. But that is simply not the case! Everything must be very gradually returned, with certain activities (trains and tube re-opening for example) being delayed much longer than others to avoid any possibility of a '2nd spike'! It will truly only be when an anti-virus is freely available that this sort of activity should return.


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## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2020)

pendodave said:



			...If you're not very old or ill you are beyond unlikely to die of this.
...
		
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But likely to be a carrier passing it on freely to all youcome into contact with - including the vulnerable!


pendodave said:



			...
On the other hand, *a great many will die* and have lives ruined by our current approach.
		
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Howso?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 14, 2020)

woth a read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...city-may-prove-countrys-strategy-right-along/


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			woth a read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...city-may-prove-countrys-strategy-right-along/

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The story is far from over in Sweden, but one city or small region does not necessarily prove one model is superior to another. There are several key components in an outbreak. One is whether or not, or how much, infection gets in in the first place. The second is whether to is prevented or allowed to propagate thereafter. Now, if you do the first one well, i.e. keep it out, then the importance of what you do next falls quite a bit. It can't spread if you managed to keep it out. Some places are lucky or unlucky in regard to the first. Liverpool, for example, had that football match. Bad luck. Some places with lots of horsey people had lots of people at Cheltenham. Others didn't. 

Overall, the breezy initial confidence of Sweden's approach has faded somewhat, and their child epidemiologist has admitted they might have got it wrong. Their per capita death rates are nothing to write home about, not far behind the UK, Spain and Italy, and a lot worse than the US, Germany and others.


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## road2ruin (Jun 14, 2020)

Just listening to BBC Radio 5 and aN expert gave figures about the chances of catching Covid. 

Outside of the home you presently have a 0.06% chance of standing next to someone who carries the virus (some regional variation) and at 1m you have a 2.6% chance of catching it which drops to 1.3% at 2m. 

On the assumption that those figures are accurate then surely a 2.6% chance of catching based on a 0.06% chance of standing next to a infected person means we have to lower the social distancing distance and allow retail/ hospitality businesses to open and survive.


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## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Just listening to BBC Radio 5 and aN expert gave figures about the chances of catching Covid.

Outside of the home you presently have a 0.06% chance of standing next to someone who carries the virus (some regional variation) and at 1m you have a 2.6% chance of catching it which drops to 1.3% at 2m.

On the assumption that those figures are accurate then surely a 2.6% chance of catching based on a 0.06% chance of standing next to a infected person means we have to lower the social distancing distance and allow retail/ hospitality businesses to open and survive.
		
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All well and good if you simply look at those numbers on their own. But factor in the number of customers a coffee shop or similar - or a crowded train (station) or tube and the exponentiation of thousands of people and those figures become 'seriously likely' that a carrier will spread the virus rapidly - and unknowingly! I'm in the fortunate situation of only encountering fewer than half a dozen folk at work, but I have no way of knowing who - and how many - they've been in contact with, so continuing 'social distancing' is very sensible to me - at least until an anti-virus is freely available!


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## road2ruin (Jun 14, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			All well and good if you simply look at those numbers on their own. But factor in the number of customers a coffee shop or similar - or a crowded train (station) or tube and the exponentiation of thousands of people and those figures become 'seriously likely' that a carrier will spread the virus rapidly - and unknowingly! I'm in the fortunate situation of only encountering fewer than half a dozen folk at work, but I have no way of knowing who - and how many - they've been in contact with, so continuing 'social distancing' is very sensible to me - at least until an anti-virus is freely available!
		
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Agree, it’s not an exact science however there is still a the possibility that there will not be an anti-virus so there has to be an alternative solution as social distancing in all instances is just not feasible long term. For some industries it’s imperative that these relaxations are made imo. If you (general you rather than you specifically) feel uncomfortable with a particular solution then don’t put yourself in that position but I think we have to be given the option now.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Just listening to BBC Radio 5 and aN expert gave figures about the chances of catching Covid.

Outside of the home you presently have a 0.06% chance of standing next to someone who carries the virus (some regional variation) and at 1m you have a 2.6% chance of catching it which drops to 1.3% at 2m.

On the assumption that those figures are accurate then surely a 2.6% chance of catching based on a 0.06% chance of standing next to a infected person means we have to lower the social distancing distance and allow retail/ hospitality businesses to open and survive.
		
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that fits in with how i see it. Does moving from 2m to 1m increase the overall infections? Undoubtedly. But we are a lot more under control than we were overall, we have protected the NHS from a meltown. I think we should drop to 1m on a regional basis in areas like London etc and to keep 2m in the problem areas until they are at a similar level to London now and then change. I see huge damage to the rest of society, depressions, the diagnosis of other diseases way behind where it should be, meaning later traetment - there are clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown. But now is the time to open up and learn to live with the desase and put the covid measures into better protecting the vulnerable, care homes, key workers etc. For the sake of the services we already have, we cannot cope with a 20% economic hit for too long. I just hope that the bounce back can have some decent momentum and job losses are not too catastophic


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			that fits in with how i see it. Does moving from 2m to 1m increase the overall infections? Undoubtedly. But we are a lot more under control than we were overall, we have protected the NHS from a meltown. I think we should drop to 1m on a regional basis in areas like London etc and to keep 2m in the problem areas until they are at a similar level to London now and then change. I see huge damage to the rest of society, depressions, the diagnosis of other diseases way behind where it should be, meaning later traetment - there are clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown. But now is the time to open up and learn to live with the desase and put the covid measures into better protecting the vulnerable, care homes, key workers etc. For the sake of the services we already have, we cannot cope with a 20% economic hit for too long. I just hope that the bounce back can have some decent momentum and job losses are not too catastophic
		
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We can only shield the population for so long

We need to get money coming into the country again and into people's banks.

If we wear face coverings in all areas where social distancing is impossible.. for example a train or bus. ATM we have 20 max on a double decker.. how do people get to work? Not everyone can drive or cycle 

Id lower vat to say 15% as a temp measure to get people spending more.. people will be scared to spend with money being limited but if tax drops it encourages spending and hopefully bring more in for a period. Plus more in for companies means more jobs saved...more jobs saved more money coming in the country in income tax


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## Foxholer (Jun 14, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			that fits in with how i see it. Does moving from 2m to 1m increase the overall infections? Undoubtedly. But we are a lot more under control than we were overall, we have protected the NHS from a meltown. I think we should drop to 1m on a regional basis in areas like London etc and to keep 2m in the problem areas until they are at a similar level to London now and then change. I see huge damage to the rest of society, depressions, the diagnosis of other diseases way behind where it should be, meaning later traetment - there are clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown. But now is the time to open up and learn to live with the desase and put the covid measures into better protecting the vulnerable, care homes, key workers etc. For the sake of the services we already have, we cannot cope with a 20% economic hit for too long. I just hope that the bounce back can have some decent momentum and job losses are not too catastophic
		
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While I agree with the concept, the huge danger is that we drop the safeguards too early and have to return to 'total' lockdown - either because of the 'freedoms' being introduced too early or idiots believing it's no longer a threat! 
The overall economics of recovery could well be less traumatic than many folk believe, though that would require some international cooperation.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Agree, it’s not an exact science however there is still a the possibility that there will not be an anti-virus so there has to be an alternative solution as social distancing in all instances is just not feasible long term. For some industries it’s imperative that these relaxations are made imo. If you (general you rather than you specifically) feel uncomfortable with a particular solution then don’t put yourself in that position but I think we have to be given the option now.
		
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The general public yes I would agree.
But some people will be pressured into going to work where they don’t feel safe that’s wrong imo.
What happened to listening to the science, do we have new scientists.
Seems to be possible Covid or bankruptcies that’s a very bad choice for some.


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## Backache (Jun 15, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			there are clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown.
		
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I'm not sure that this is true . I haven't seen much evidence presented for any deaths caused by lockdown as opposed to the virus.


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			...there are *clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas* that have been *caused by the lockdown*...
		
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Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.


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## pendodave (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.
		
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I can only speak for myself, but i have had two cancer related appointments cancelled indefinitely. 
An age related bowel cancer scan. There are estimates of 1000s of early deaths as a consequence of these.
A regular 3 minthly check on a cancer op site. Will be upwards of 8 months  before this takes place.
Multiply these by the millions of people in a similar position, you'll get plenty of deaths.
They, like all the life shortening consequences of unemployment and lack of education, won't be on the news tonight. As that is almost literally the attention/policy span of our leaders, they are completely ignored.


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## huds1475 (Jun 15, 2020)

I know my wife has been struggling to make sure kids in her school still have support, keeps her awake at night. 

Letter from Marcus Rashford to MP’s helps shine a light on the problem;

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...able-marcus-rashfords-emotional-letter-to-mps


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## rudebhoy (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.
		
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*Covid-19: “Staggering number” of extra deaths in community is not explained by covid-19*

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931

Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by covid-19, new data have shown.

Article reports 30,000 excess deaths in the community by 13th May, but only 10,000 attributable to Covid-19.


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I can only speak for myself, but i have had two cancer related appointments cancelled indefinitely.
An age related bowel cancer scan. There are estimates of 1000s of early deaths as a consequence of these.
A regular 3 minthly check on a cancer op site. Will be upwards of 8 months  before this takes place.
Multiply these by the millions of people in a similar position, you'll get plenty of deaths.
They, like all the life shortening consequences of unemployment and lack of education, won't be on the news tonight. As that is almost literally the attention/policy span of our leaders, they are completely ignored.
		
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While it's certainly regrettable, *early* _consequential_ deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply '*clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas* *that have been* *caused by the lockdown'*!


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## rudebhoy (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			While it's certainly regrettable, *early* _consequential_ deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply '*clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas* *that have been* *caused by the lockdown'*!
		
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see post 3855.


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## pendodave (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			While it's certainly regrettable, *early* _consequential_ deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply '*clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas* *that have been* *caused by the lockdown'*!
		
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Lol. That's all right then. They don't count. Lockdown is a great success after all...


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			see post 3855.
		
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How many were 'caused by the *lockdown*'?
I'd suggest the extra deaths were caused by the necessities forced on the NHS by the *pandemic*! So the #1 priority has to (still) be minimising the effects of the *pandemic*, including the need for lockdown, not (yet) those of the lockdown!


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Lol. That's all right then. They don't count. Lockdown is a great success after all...
		
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Compared to 'business as normal', I'd suggest an outstanding success!!


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## rudebhoy (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			How many were 'caused by the *lockdown*'?
I'd suggest the extra deaths were caused by the necessities forced on the NHS by the *pandemic*! So the #1 priority has to (still) be minimising the effects of the *pandemic*, including te need for lockdown, not (yet) those of the lockdown!
		
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you seem to be splitting hairs here. I'm sure the OP's point was about extra non-covid related deaths as a result of the knock on effects of the pandemic.


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## Backache (Jun 15, 2020)

As far as I can seethe excess deaths have shadowed very closely the Covid deaths in this country and abroad . If they were due to lockdown they should not have fallen when lockdown remained in place but covid was falling. The most plausible explanation in my view is that it is undiagnosed covid causing the deaths.
When doctors go on strike and patients have restricted access to hospital death rates do not normally rise they fall or remain static.


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## pendodave (Jun 15, 2020)

Backache said:



			When doctors go on strike and patients have restricted access to hospital death rates do not normally rise they fall or remain static.
		
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Do you have numbers for that??


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## Backache (Jun 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Do you have numbers for that??
		
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The numbers vary across countries but it's a well recognised phenomenon
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953608005066


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## PNWokingham (Jun 15, 2020)

y


Foxholer said:



			Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.
		
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I am stating the bleedin obvious and have not got time to investigate and send lots of supporting commentary that has been widely reported. And i mean deaths that will occur more than what has happened in the last few months as early and not so early diagnosis of many ailments will have been missed, along with depression, lonililiness that will just make some people lose the will to live. And the whole area around this will not be easy to quantify with statistics, certainly not at the moment - but pretty much a certainty that it will be significant


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## PNWokingham (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			While it's certainly regrettable, *early* _consequential_ deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply '*clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas* *that have been* *caused by the lockdown'*!
		
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that is exactly what i meant - i think others understood without being so pedantic


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			that is exactly what i meant - i think others understood without being so pedantic
		
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Well it's certainly NOT what you posted - and you went on to argue that 'the lockdown' should be lifted as it (not mentioning 'the pandemic') was the cause of many deaths. That significant difference is NOT being pedantic - at least not imo!

Btw. You still haven't actually made it clear what you meant - simply 'that' which could mean either, or both! I presume it's the bit that I had put in bold.


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			y


I am stating the bleedin obvious and have not got time to investigate and send lots of supporting commentary that has been widely reported. And i mean deaths that will occur more than what has happened in the last few months as early and not so early diagnosis of many ailments will have been missed, along with depression, lonililiness that will just make some people lose the will to live. And the whole area around this will not be easy to quantify with statistics, certainly not at the moment - but pretty much a certainty that it will be significant
		
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Not caused by the lockdown though - which is what you were arguing needed to be lifted. Cause was 'the pandemic', not 'lockdown' Lifting the lockdown too early will have the opposite effect to what we all want!


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## pendodave (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Lifting the lockdown too early will have the opposite effect to what we all want!
		
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I love the thoughtless assumption in this statement. 
For 10s of millions of people, the lockdown reduces their life chances by making them unemployed and increases their chance of an early death by removing access to preventative medicine. 
The idea that it is a universal truth is no place to start (or continue) a discussion, surely?


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I love the thoughtless assumption in this statement.
...
The idea that it is a universal truth is no place to start (or continue) a discussion, surely?
		
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What twaddle! What are you on?


pendodave said:



			...
For 10s of millions of people, the lockdown reduces their life chances by making them unemployed and increases their chance of an early death by removing access to preventative medicine.
...
		
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I suggest you check how many actually died (especially in percentage terms) from previous pandemics!
There's already been nearly 8m cases, with nearly half a million deaths - and that's without considering some 'dishonest' reporting from many countries!
Without lockdown, there'd be significantly more deaths immediately. Lockdown is essential to beating the pandemic, thus allowing many/most unemployed back to work. Obviously this needs to happen asap, but ever-mindful of the potential for 2nd/subsequent spike/s!
And then, once anti-virus is freely available, governments have an obligation to stimulate their economy so that those '10s of millions' life chances are restored!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2020)

I see we can add shoppers looking for a cheap Ralf Lauren T shirt at Bicester village to the list of people to blame when there is a second spike.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2020)

Raab not actually answering why no Medical or Scientific expertise with him on the briefing today - other than to suggest they had lots to get on with - as if that's changed and we'll buy it.  

I suspect that most know why the government is limiting the appearance of 'the experts'.  After all, this crew have history with 'experts'


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## huds1475 (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			What twaddle!
		
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Do you don a tweed number and a monocle when you write this?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Raab not actually answering why no Medical or Scientific expertise with him on the briefing today - other than to suggest they had lots to get on with - as if that's changed and we'll buy it. 

I suspect that most know why the government is limiting the appearance of 'the experts'.  After all, this crew have history with 'experts'
		
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Not much point in having scientific/medical experts there to answer stupid questions from the media. 

What has our future relationship with China got to do with a Daily Coronavirus Briefing?


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Raab not actually answering why no Medical or Scientific expertise with him on the briefing today - other than to suggest they had lots to get on with - as if that's changed and we'll buy it. 

I suspect that most know why the government is limiting the appearance of 'the experts'.  After all, this crew have history with 'experts'
		
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To many times they have just stood there as part of the furniture. Perhaps they should have published allocated days when they will be there.

All the reporters are after is a Gotcha Question


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			To many times they have just stood there as part of the furniture. Perhaps they should have published allocated days when they will be there.

*All the reporters are after is a Gotcha Question*

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And all politicians do is avoid answering difficult questions.


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Do you don a tweed number and a monocle when you write this? 

Click to expand...

Twaddle is a great word to describe some of the garbage posted on this forum. Late 18th Century I believe. But in answer to your question...No - possibly because I'm already wearing them!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			To many times they have just stood there as part of the furniture. Perhaps they should have published allocated days when they will be there.

All the reporters are after is a Gotcha Question
		
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You can choose to push back here as much as you like but you know that they should be present.  And you know that Raab's rationale 'they are busy' is frankly pathetic.  They really do take us for fools...but some choose to pretend they are not...


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			And all politicians do is avoid answering difficult questions.
		
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That's not ALL they do! But it's certainly a 'skill' they develop pretty quickly if they seek 'higher office'! Here's a great example, especially from about 4 mins in!


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## ger147 (Jun 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			And all politicians do is avoid answering difficult questions.
		
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"Opposition is about asking awkward questions and Government is about not answering them."

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP and Sir Humphrey Appleby...


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## PNWokingham (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can choose to push back here as much as you like but you know that they should be present.  And you know that Raab's rationale 'they are busy' is frankly pathetic.  They really do take us for fools...but some choose to pretend they are not...
		
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what is the point in experts being there if there is nothing to add to what has been said many times. If there is an update, bring them in - if not, it makes no sense


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			And all politicians do is avoid answering difficult questions.
		
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They havnt had a difficult one yet


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can choose to push back here as much as you like but you know that they should be present.  And you know that Raab's rationale 'they are busy' is frankly pathetic.  They really do take us for fools...but some choose to pretend they are not...
		
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How stupid, why am I pushing back, I'm just stating an opinion, just like you or do you actually know the work timetable of these guys.


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			what is the point in experts being if there is nothing to add to what has been said many times. If there is an update, bring them in - if not, it makes no sense
		
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Now now, you know SILH knows exactly what our chief executives are up to, hes a very important persons who seems to forget that there was the odd day last week when they weren't about but not a mention then


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## IanM (Jun 15, 2020)

if he was given a free car, he'd moan about the colour!

Press will soon be posting last weeks racing results..... shame they were not available in advance, I'd have got a few quid on!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			They havnt had a difficult one yet
		
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If you thought Bojo got through the one after Cummings press conference with flying colours then you are deranged. Yes it was a bot of an open goal for the journalists, but it was painful watching Bojo defend his chief advisors' lying.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can choose to push back here as much as you like but you know that they should be present.  And you know that Raab's rationale 'they are busy' is frankly pathetic.  They really do take us for fools...but some choose to pretend they are not...
		
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The only fool is the one asking why the experts aren't there.

The questions too often do not demand the attention of an expert. 

If there is a  new policy or important new information then yes I would expect them to be in attendance. 

If, however,  it is merely a case of rattling off the daily statistics then their time could  be far better utilised. 

As long as they are able to attend any inquiry that will follow and answer questions freely and frankly I don't expect them to waste their valuable time book-ending the Government's representative.


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

Give



Hacker Khan said:



			If you thought Bojo got through the one after Cummings press conference with flying colours then you are deranged. Yes it was a bot of an open goal for the journalists, but it was painful watching Bojo defend his chief advisors' lying. 

Click to expand...

Wasn't deranged last time I looked, I'm also grown up enough to have noticed for years that politicians of all persuasions only give the answers they want.

Accused by one poster of being racist and another as being deranged. This forum gets more like arrse every week.

Could be worse, I could be a grandad 🤣


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



*Twaddle is a great word to describe some of the garbage posted on this forum.* Late 18th Century I believe. But in answer to your question...No - possibly because I'm already wearing them!
		
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It's a wonder that you can lower yourself to associate with such peasants.


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's a wonder that you can lower yourself to associate with such peasants. 

Click to expand...

Just don't Twaddle him, he cant take it


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think they should always have an expert present and vary them to cover different specialties and perspectives.

Would also do something to assuage the notion that political decisions are overruling scientific advice.
		
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After three months and over 70 briefings what exactly has not been covered?

I would be really interested to know having watched all but two of those briefings.

In support of my point is the fact that the  two I have missed are both very recent. There is increasingly less information about the  virus,  its treatment  and how to reduce the chances of contracting it. Just daily stats.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Now now, you know SILH knows exactly what our chief executives are up to, hes a very important persons who seems to forget that there was the odd day last week when they weren't about but not a mention then
		
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It's a pity that because he's so busy on here he hasn't got time to run the country.


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's a wonder that you can lower yourself to associate with such peasants. 

Click to expand...

One has to do one's best to educate the plebs doesn't one! 
Fortunately, the accent of those of us that dislike/hate podians doesn't feature in text!


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's a pity that because he's so busy on here he hasn't got time to run the country. 

Click to expand...

N


Blue in Munich said:



			It's a pity that because he's so busy on here he hasn't got time to run the country. 

Click to expand...

With a French hairdresser as Chief Advisor, be worse than Cummings.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			They tend to be very banal but if you're going to have them you need to hear from the experts to get a more rounded view than the politicians can (or are willing to) provide. I know it doesn't go down well on here but they could learn a lot from the Scottish daily updates and try to replicate the way those come over.
		
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Sorry but you still haven't suggested what topics have not been covered. 

We have had representatives of each of the emergency services,  the nursing profession, statisticians, members of SAGE, Chief Medical Officer,  Government Scientific Adviser, NHS, PHE, various deputies. 

And despite all this expertise being available to them the media continue to ask the same, generally irrelevant questions and don't even bother listening to the answers.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			One has to do one's best to educate the plebs doesn't one! 
Fortunately, the accent of those of us that dislike/hate podians doesn't feature in text! 

Click to expand...

Podians. That's a tough one, Podia is the plural of Podium so infers a number or collection of Podium, I guess Podians are people who support multiple podiums or Podia. Or is it related to the treatment of the feet or Podiatry.  Beats me.  I'll get me coat.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Give

Wasn't deranged last time I looked, I'm also grown up enough to have noticed for years that politicians of all persuasions only give the answers they want.

Accused by one poster of being racist and another as being deranged. This forum gets more like arrse every week.

Could be worse, I could be a grandad 🤣
		
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Or bald and/or tattooed.


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## Old Skier (Jun 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Or bald and/or tattooed.
		
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Bald, I'm sitting on my locks now, tats, never seen the point.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just giving the opinion that they should be there and giving relevant updates on their areas of expertise. Don't care about the questions; they've been a mixed bag but the politicians don't answer them anyway.

Pretty clear they've been dropped because they won't necessarily toe the party line.
		
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But what updates are there to give beyond numbers of tests, new cases, hospitalisations, R factor and deaths. 

Don't need  scientists etc. for that unless there is a major movement in the figures.

As to your last sentence I  would ask "What party line?" 

Only when announcing a new policy for dealing with the virus and its consequences could there be said to be such a thing.


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## rulefan (Jun 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I just think it'd be nice if the daily briefing about the public health crisis included some public health experts.
		
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And what do you expect them to say that they haven't said before?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I just think it'd be nice if the daily briefing about the public health crisis included some public health experts and not just politicians.

*You're entitled to an opposing view.*

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Yes, but only a pro-government view will not be questioned.


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## drdel (Jun 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			And what do you expect them to say that they haven't said before?
		
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I agree 

 That is the job of the local/regional PHE officials. As the country moves to more targeted action the 'national' policy becomes less relevant.

While still very serious the projected course of Covid-19 is relatively stable so daily briefings are less about the science and more about the tactical changes. Since the journalists insist the questions remain blind the relevant expert attending may not be the right one. The questions are largely political traps by the egocentric broadcasters.
I think the briefings should  be twice weekly


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## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2020)

If you question the current opposite partys lack of view the stock reply is "they aren't in government". This country needs a decent opposition yet once again we get a party with a massive divide and a leader who needs to bang some heads together.


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## rulefan (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Since the journalists insist the questions remain blind the relevant expert attending may not be the right one. The questions are largely political traps by the egocentric broadcasters.
		
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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you question the current opposite partys lack of view the stock reply is "they aren't in government". This country needs a decent opposition yet once again we get a party with a massive divide and a leader who needs to bang some heads together.
		
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Lack of views on what? That stock answer, as you call it, has only been given in respect to Covid-19 and that is because we were told time and time and time again that this wasn’t the time for Party politics as we were facing an unprecedented challenge and we should all get behind the Government.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

Question to the shadow education minister - "what would you have done differently if you were in power?"..."set up a task force"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Question to the shadow education minister - "what would you have done differently if you were in power?"..."set up a task force" 

Click to expand...

Maybe he should of said “dithered, change the rules, ignore the rules, go back on our word, change our mind and talk about the opposition”


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe he should of said “dithered, change the rules, ignore the rules, go back on our word, change our mind and talk about the opposition” 

Click to expand...

She...could have actually said something constructive and not just they'd have talked about it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272803894066896896


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			She...could have actually said something constructive and not just they'd have talked about it.
		
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Why though? What difference would it of made? Some kids/schools still don’t have the laptops the Government promised over the lockdown, but somehow she’s wrong because she’d of set up a task force to help all Schools to see what was working well and what wasn’t.
Unfortunately for us all, I’d prefer Government action than opposition words.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why though? What difference would it of made? Some kids/schools still don’t have the laptops the Government promised over the lockdown, but somehow she’s wrong because she’d of set up a task force to help all Schools to see what was working well and what wasn’t.
Unfortunately for us all, I’d prefer Government action than opposition words.
		
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She was asked what she would have done differently. Simple question. It's fine to be critical of what's been done but it's easy just to criticise without having to come up with a better alternative.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			She was asked what she would have done differently. Simple question. It's fine to be critical of what's been done but it's easy just to criticise without having to come up with a better alternative.
		
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That’s the whole point of oppostion parties isn’t? Whoever they are, when in opposition they can talk rubbish, because, A. They at that precise time directly accountable and aware of all the facts and B. Whatever they say will be ridiculed.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s the whole point of oppostion parties isn’t? Whoever they are, when in opposition they can talk rubbish, because, A. They at that precise time directly accountable and aware of all the facts and B. Whatever they say will be ridiculed.
		
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Is it? Not how I see the role of opposition.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Is it? Not how I see the role of opposition.
		
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Aren’t we discussing this crisis?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Aren’t we discussing this crisis?
		
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Crisis? What crisis?


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## drdel (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why though? What difference would it of made? Some kids/schools still don’t have the laptops the Government promised over the lockdown, but somehow she’s wrong because she’d of set up a task force to help all Schools to see what was working well and what wasn’t.
Unfortunately for us all, I’d prefer Government action than opposition words.
		
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Words 'of' and 'have' are different... 😏😏😏


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Crisis? What crisis?
		
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See thread title.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Podians. That's a tough one, Podia is the plural of Podium so infers a number or collection of Podium, I guess Podians are people who support multiple podiums or Podia. Or is it related to the treatment of the feet or Podiatry.  Beats me.  I'll get me coat.
		
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'Whoosh' then! A bit subtle perhaps, or maybe simply too obtuse!
Would it help if I described myself as Anti Podian (aka Podian hater)? Or, from the words of a song by a band from the 'north west island'...I come from a land down under! Though I used to have a Wizards Projection that showed us as 'Up Over'!


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Words 'of' and 'have' are different... 😏😏😏
		
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As are 'to' and 'than' (or maybe 'rather' was forgotten). But you'd be fighting for a lost cause trying to get folk to use English properly on here!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Words 'of' and 'have' are different... 😏😏😏
		
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Foxholer said:



			As are 'to' and 'than' (or maybe 'rather' was forgotten). But you'd be fighting for a lost cause trying to get folk to use English properly on here! 

Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			'Whoosh' then! A bit subtle perhaps, or maybe simply too obtuse!
Would it help if I described myself as Anti Podian (aka Podian hater)? Or, from the words of a song by a band from the 'north west island'...I come from a land down under! Though I used to have a Wizards Projection that showed us as 'Up Over'!
		
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Woosh indeed! Down under, antipodean but Podian is a new one on me 🤔


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272803894066896896

Click to expand...

What a brain fart of a comment.
Anyhow, why is it in this Coronaviris thread!


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Woosh indeed! Down under, antipodean but Podian is a new one on me 🤔
		
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Trying to ensure 3 syllables probably didn't help either! 'Podean' suggests illicit booze!


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			See thread title.

Click to expand...

I'm lost.


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why though? What difference would it of made? Some kids/schools still don’t have the laptops the Government promised over the lockdown, but somehow she’s wrong because she’d of set up a task force to help all Schools to see what was working well and what wasn’t.
Unfortunately for us all, I’d prefer Government action than opposition words.
		
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Some kids don't have laptops because they are poor schools, i.e. poorly led. Both my daughter's schools have had laptops out with their kids since before it was even mooted. They bought them before the Dept of Education said go for it, at the first whisper, and have since claimed the money back from the LEA. No child, and I mean NO child has been without a laptop for weeks.



AmandaJR said:



			She was asked what she would have done differently. Simple question. It's fine to be critical of what's been done but it's easy just to criticise without having to come up with a better alternative.
		
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And if you saw Starmer ask the same question at PMQ's last week/week before, Boris' reply was we've had phone calls at least every day, and we've already gone through this in detail.

I thought she sounded like yesterday's politician. She was poor and needs putting back on the back benches. We need a dynamic 'new' Labour capable of taking on the Tories, not some Corbynite windbag.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Some kids don't have laptops because they are poor schools, i.e. poorly led. Both my daughter's schools have had laptops out with their kids since before it was even mooted. They bought them before the Dept of Education said go for it, at the first whisper, and have since claimed the money back from the LEA. No child, and I mean NO child has been without a laptop for weeks.



And if you saw Starmer ask the same question at PMQ's last week/week before, B*oris' reply was we've had phone calls at least every day, and we've already gone through this in detail.*

Click to expand...

You are embellishing it somewhat. Johnson referred to one phone call, which turned out to be a conference call with a number of leaders.

_There was also a terse reply from Sir Keir after the Prime Minister suggested they had spoken on the phone about the plan for schools.
Sir Keir replied "let's have this out" and added: "The Prime Minister and I have never discussed our letter in any phone call - he knows it and I know it."_

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-tears-into-boris-johnson-pmqs-a4465041.html


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			You are embellishing it somewhat. Johnson referred to one phone call, which turned out to be a conference call with a number of leaders.

_There was also a terse reply from Sir Keir after the Prime Minister suggested they had spoken on the phone about the plan for schools.
Sir Keir replied "let's have this out" and added: "The Prime Minister and I have never discussed our letter in any phone call - he knows it and I know it."_

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-tears-into-boris-johnson-pmqs-a4465041.html

Click to expand...

I'm quoting Boris from PMQ... but you know best.... obviously...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm lost.
		
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 How we expect an opposition to be in normal times is different to what I and you have expected during this crisis, ie whilst the Government deal with covid-19.

I thought we were on this thread we were discussing the opposition behaviour related to this crisis.

Hence my confusion with your post #3802.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Some kids don't have laptops because they are poor schools, i.e. poorly led. Both my daughter's schools have had laptops out with their kids since before it was even mooted. They bought them before the Dept of Education said go for it, at the first whisper, and have since claimed the money back from the LEA. No child, and I mean NO child has been without a laptop for weeks.



And if you saw Starmer ask the same question at PMQ's last week/week before, Boris' reply was we've had phone calls at least every day, and we've already gone through this in detail.
		
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Really Bri?
https://amp.theguardian.com/educati...ee-laptops-pledged-to-help-poorer-gcse-pupils


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## rudebhoy (Jun 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm quoting Boris from PMQ... but you know best.... obviously...
		
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That's funny, when I watched it, Johnson came out with some stupid remark about having spoken to Starmer 'on a modern contraption called the telephone' but I don't recall him saying they had spoken by phone at least once a day.

I guess Starmer must be lying then? Funny how no one has pulled him up about it...


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



 How we expect an opposition to be in normal times is different to what I and you have expected during this crisis, ie whilst the Government deal with covid-19.

I thought we were on this thread we were discussing the opposition behaviour related to this crisis.

Hence my confusion with your post #3802.
		
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The opposition behaviour relating to this crisis was my first point. As useful as a chocolate teapot.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The opposition behaviour relating to this crisis was my first point. As useful as a chocolate teapot.
		
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But yet when the crisis first started you were one of the main ones on here moaning about people not getting behind the Government and supporting them, add in the fact they were going through the final weeks of Corbyn what exactly did you want from an opposition?

To claim they or anyone else in opposition was “ As useful as a chocolate teapot” is very disengenious of you.

The Government have sought help from nobody and therefore have no one else to blame or to take credit for, for everything that has come out of No10 during the crisis.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But yet when the crisis first started you were one of the main ones on here moaning about people not getting behind the Government and supporting them, add in the fact they were going through the final weeks of Corbyn what exactly did you want from an opposition?

To claim they or anyone else in opposition was “ As useful as a chocolate teapot” is very disengenious of you.

The Government have sought help from nobody and therefore have no one else to blame or to take credit for, for everything that has come out of No10 during the crisis.
		
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Her reply was indeed as useful as a chocolate teapot. If she had given any real consideration to what she would have recommended then surely the ideal opportuntity to impress us all with that - she'll never be held to account for it not happening. "I'd have ensured EVERY school had 4 laptops for every student". "I'd have emplyed millions of private tutors to visit each child daily to take lessons". etc etc.

But...no..."I'd organise a task force".

"Moaning" "Disingenuous" - what is it with the personal element of your posts? Disagree for sure but where do I resort to similar?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm quoting Boris from PMQ... but you know best.... obviously...
		
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He has a reputation of telling 'untruths' though.


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## Mudball (Jun 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He has a reputation of telling '*untruths*' though.

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I think the word is alternate facts..

I watched the C19 briefing after a long  time. BoJo was on because there was good news on the treatment front. It was worth watching him squirm and not make eye contact when responding to the summer hol kid food question. What a duchebag. There was more blister on the DFID and FCO merger.. 

I know this is a golfing forum and the demographics are different but I struggle to understand why some people miss the fact that child poverty in this country is very high. Easier to spot it when you are overseas but more difficult in our backyard (flame suit on)


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I think the word is alternate facts..

I watched the C19 briefing after a long  time. BoJo was on because there was good news on the treatment front. It was worth watching him squirm and not make eye contact when responding to the summer hol kid food question. What a duchebag. There was more blister on the DFID and FCO merger..

I know this is a golfing forum and the demographics are different but I struggle to understand why some people miss the fact that child poverty in this country is very high. Easier to spot it when you are overseas but more difficult in our backyard (flame suit on)
		
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I'm not sure people do miss the facts. There are not unlimited funds. I saw a tory MP today quote it being a blunt tool and reminding us that Gordon Brown chose not to extend the scheme through school holidays. Personally I think it may be a blunt tool and not the greatest use of funds for the vulnerable BUT if it's the best tool we've got right now then we should use it and down the line find a better system to ensure the funds get to the most needy.

The government were wrong not to extend it through the holidays and have had to change their minds - that's good news whatever way you look at it. Should it have taken Rashford etc to appeal? No.


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## chrisd (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm not sure people do miss the facts. There are not unlimited funds. I saw a tory MP today quote it being a blunt tool and reminding us that Gordon Brown chose not to extend the scheme through school holidays. Personally I think it may be a blunt tool and not the greatest use of funds for the vulnerable BUT if it's the best tool we've got right now then we should use it and down the line find a better system to ensure the funds get to the most needy.

The government were wrong not to extend it through the holidays and have had to change their minds - that's good news whatever way you look at it. Should it have taken Rashford etc to appeal? No.
		
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Good post Amanda

There are a lot of vulnerable kids and we do need to help them but I think sometimes the in power Governments need a prod to understand the public opinion. Also, having a wife who worked in primary education there were a lot of parents claiming all the freebies but were never short of a car, hairdressers  eyebrows being done, the best phones.....


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## drdel (Jun 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I think the word is alternate facts..

I watched the C19 briefing after a long  time. BoJo was on because there was good news on the treatment front. It was worth watching him squirm and not make eye contact when responding to the summer hol kid food question. What a duchebag. There was more blister on the DFID and FCO merger..

I know this is a golfing forum and the demographics are different but I struggle to understand why some people miss the fact that child poverty in this country is very high. Easier to spot it when you are overseas but more difficult in our backyard (flame suit on)
		
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You should be aware the PM usually does the  Wednesday briefing!!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Good post Amanda

There are a lot of vulnerable kids and we do need to help them but I think sometimes the in power Governments need a prod to understand the public opinion. *Also, having a wife who worked in primary education there were a lot of parents claiming all the freebies but were never short of a car, hairdressers  eyebrows being done, the best phones.....*

Click to expand...

Being a chair of governors in an area where there are a decent proportion on free school meals and knowing what happens in schools I know that is mostly the standard BS put out by the right wing press with absolutely no evidence whatsoever apart from hearsay.

It would be nice if someone on the right could just say, this is a good thing and stop.  It is a good thing that kids who may not get much in the way of proper food in the UK in 2020 will get some during the summer. End of. Without the tedious inferences out of the Katie Hopkins playbook that it is the fault of a lot of the parents for being feckless, buying 72 inch TVs, iPhone 14s or whatever crap is usually peddled out in these situations.  Yes I am sure it does happen now and then.  But not it is not as prominent as the Daily Telegraph wants to portray and is about 124th on the list of reasons why the kids are suffering.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Her reply was indeed as useful as a chocolate teapot. If she had given any real consideration to what she would have recommended then surely the ideal opportuntity to impress us all with that - she'll never be held to account for it not happening. "I'd have ensured EVERY school had 4 laptops for every student". "I'd have emplyed millions of private tutors to visit each child daily to take lessons". etc etc.

But...no..."I'd organise a task force".

"Moaning" "Disingenuous" - what is it with the personal element of your posts? Disagree for sure but where do I resort to similar?
		
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Her reply is irrelevant as she or any other opposition politician will not and cannot be aware of all the facts, ie, budgets restraints etc, so why would you want yet another politician making up fairy stories, surely a task force with suitably qualified, knowledgeable people to identify the size and scope of the problem is a more honest step.

As for the moaning, disingenious comments, maybe take time to read some of what you’ve posted on this thread, the reason you started it was for your personal reason, then you actually changed the title, you’ve told posters they’ve peed you off and how sad the world is and made you want to get off and all of those comments have followed posters criticising the Government, but yet today it’s ok for you to criticise an opposition MP, so if I’ve interpreted some of your comments as moaning or disingenious then maybe you should also look at your own posting style.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Her reply is irrelevant as she or any other opposition politician will not and cannot be aware of all the facts, ie, budgets restraints etc, so why would you want yet another politician making up fairy stories, surely a task force with suitably qualified, knowledgeable people to identify the size and scope of the problem is a more honest step.

As for the moaning, disingenious comments, maybe take time to read some of what you’ve posted on this thread, the reason you started it was for your personal reason, then you actually changed the title, you’ve told posters they’ve peed you off and how sad the world is and made you want to get off and all of those comments have followed posters criticising the Government, but yet todsy it’s ok for you to criticise an opposition MP, so if I’ve interpreted some of your comments as moaning or disingenious then maybe you should also look at your own posting style.
		
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You're really not very nice. Such an angry man.

I changed the title. Why? Check the facts and remind me why don't you.

Please do find me my post where I've told posters they've peed me off. I'd very much like to be reminded of that too.


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## chrisd (Jun 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Being a chair of governors in an area where there are a decent proportion on free school meals and knowing what happens in schools I know that is mostly the standard BS put out by the right wing press with absolutely no evidence whatsoever apart from hearsay.

It would be nice if someone on the right could just say, this is a good thing and stop.  It is a good thing that kids who may not get much in the way of proper food in the UK in 2020 will get some during the summer. End of. Without the tedious inferences out of the Katie Hopkins playbook that it is the fault of a lot of the parents for being feckless, buying 72 inch TVs, iPhone 14s or whatever crap is usually peddled out in these situations.  Yes I am sure it does happen now and then.  But not it is not as prominent as the Daily Telegraph wants to portray and is about 124th on the list of reasons why the kids are suffering.
		
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I'm not saying that there isn't deprivation and that many families need more help, but with due respect Mrs D worked daily in a primary school for 27 years, knew the kids and the parents and there were a fair number on benefits but the parents were not spending the money on their kids and looked for every freebie going and, yes, they did have the things I mentioned. No, not all, not even the majority but then I haven't mentioned the ones on drugs,  alcoholics, those who assault their children etc etc!
I suspect when the Chair of Governers visits its like when Ofsted come


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			You're really not very nice. Such an angry man.

I changed the title. Why? Check the facts and remind me why don't you.

Please do find me my post where I've told posters they've peed me off. I'd very much like to be reminded of that too.
		
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AmandaJR said:



			Edited the title! "Sniping" put my slant on it



Click to expand...




AmandaJR said:



			Excuse me but it's not how I listen to the news either. I attempt to make the best job at finding out the news from a trusted, non-biased, impartial public broadcaster. If they don't, imo, step up to the mark  then I will, and will continue to, call them out on it. For me it's a big part of why I feel I pay my license fee.



Just because my views are likely to be polar opposite to yours does not make them wrong. Irritated as you may be by the tedious nature of them, they are mine and I'll continue to make them. I don't tell you you're wrong, or you're being tedious with your constant mentioning of something...I'd be grateful if you could do me the same courtesy.



*Now you've really peed me off.*

Click to expand...

Both posts as requested, 1 changed for personal reason, 2nd when a poster peed you off.

And your perception of me, maybe as wrong of me as I am of you, as I’ve never in my life been described as angry, far from it in fact.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

Just a thought  but could the kids not go to school to get their free meals and have some tuition while they are there ?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Both posts as requested, 1 changed for personal reason, 2nd when a poster peed you off.

And your perception of me, maybe as wrong of me as I am of you, as I’ve never in my life been described as angry, far from it in fact.
		
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I thought I was doing the right thing editing the title as what I'd originally put was more personal to me and my opinion than seemed fair.

I had forgotten tell HK he peed me off BUT in my defence he also got very personal and quite insulting. Perhaps quote the whole debate to get the correct context.

Why does having different viewpoints mean it's ok to be personal and rude? I just don't get it.

I normally avoid engaging because it always has to become personal. I thought I might test to see if you'd ever let anyone with an opposing view have the last word.

I await your next response after which I'll probably give it a miss for a while again.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm not saying that there isn't deprivation and that many families need more help, but with due respect Mrs D worked daily in a primary school for 27 years, knew the kids and the parents and there were a fair number on benefits but the parents were not spending the money on their kids and looked for every freebie going and, yes, they did have the things I mentioned. No, not all, not even the majority but then I haven't mentioned the ones on drugs,  alcoholics, those who assault their children etc etc!
I suspect when the Chair of Governers visits its like when Ofsted come
		
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Its one of those subjects we have to pretend doesnt exist Chris. If you suggest '*some*' parents could do more for their children you are labeled a Tory right wing extremest for suggesting '*All*' parents could do more for their children. Those looking to be offended get offended and us Bald Tattooed Grandad Tory Racists once again cannot understand diddly squat.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I thought I was doing the right thing editing the title as what I'd originally put was more personal to me and my opinion than seemed fair.

I had forgotten tell HK he peed me off BUT in my defence he also got very personal and quite insulting. Perhaps quote the whole debate to get the correct context.

Why does having different viewpoints mean it's ok to be personal and rude? I just don't get it.

I normally avoid engaging because it always has to become personal. I thought I might test to see if you'd ever let anyone with an opposing view have the last word.

I await your next response after which I'll probably give it a miss for a while again.
		
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 You’ve told HK he’s peed you off as well as SILH, I didn’t know that.

Please stop with the rude comments, nowhere have I been rude, everything I’ve said I’ve backed up.

Feel free to disagree, but stop claiming I’m being rude, simply pointed out some inconsistencies in your posts which I have interpreted as moaning and disingenious.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



 You’ve told HK he’s peed you off as well as SILH, I didn’t know that.

Please stop with the rude comments, nowhere have I been rude, everything I’ve said I’ve backed up.

Feel free to disagree, but stop claiming I’m being rude, simply pointed out some inconsistencies in your posts which I have interpreted as moaning and disingenious.
		
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No I think it was just SILH actually. So often on here there's an unnecessary edge and snide to the debate. 

Dammit - I said I'd disengage.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

PS How the heck do you remember what I've posted? Even I don't!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Just a thought  but could the kids not go to school to get their free meals and have some tuition while they are there ?
		
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Not in year 2/3/4/5. There not back yet, unless keyworkers kids.
I thought the problem was when the holidays start the vouchers stopped.
That’s been sorted by Marcus?
Well done to him .


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## chrisd (Jun 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its one of those subjects we have to pretend doesnt exist Chris. If you suggest '*some*' parents could do more for their children you are labeled a Tory right wing extremest for suggesting '*All*' parents could do more for their children. Those looking to be offended get offended and us Bald Tattooed Grandad Tory Racists once again cannot understand diddly squat.
		
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Just about sums it up. My wife, for privacy reasons, never gave chapter and verse on the kids but she was often quite upset about these matters and it would surprise people if the names of the ones who badly abused their kids were made public locally.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			PS How the heck do you remember what I've posted? Even I don't!
		
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Because unfortunately, I have done my utmost to support the Government during this crisis and whether you’ve realised it or not, virtually every time somebody has criticised the Government or a Government Minister you have commented how wrong they are or how sad it makes you or everybody should be supporting them etc, etc, 

I found that quite ironic seeing as how you started a thread for people to give views, for or against.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Because unfortunately, I have done my utmost to support the Government during this crisis and whether you’ve realised it or not, v*irtually every time somebody has criticised the Government or a Government Minister you have commented how wrong they are or how sad it makes you or everybody should be supporting them etc, etc,*

I found that quite ironic seeing as how you started a thread for people to give views, for or against.
		
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Now that is utter twaddle. I'm sure you'll know exactly so please do tell me how many times I have commented in such a manner on this post. Let's say prior to today as it was you reacting to my initial post.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 16, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Just about sums it up. My wife, for privacy reasons, never gave chapter and verse on the kids but she was often quite upset about these matters and it would surprise people if the names of the ones who badly abused their kids were made public locally.
		
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Yes my wife is in the safeguarding role .
It makes me sick some of the things people do to their own kids.
No kids are ever named in these very upsetting stories.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			She was asked what she would have done differently. Simple question. It's fine to be critical of what's been done but it's easy just to criticise without having to come up with a better alternative.
		
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Spot on.
Or they come up with a better alternative after the event.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Now that is utter twaddle. I'm sure you'll know exactly so please do tell me how many times I have commented on this post. Let's say prior to today as it was you reacting to my initial post.
		
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I’ll tell you what, I won’t respond to anything you put anymore, anything I’ve posted to you today I’ve given an explanation as to why I posted it.

So you have now decided to get snidey when challenged and faced with facts I’d rather not bother with you.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ll tell you what, I won’t respond to anything you put anymore, anything I’ve posted to you today I’ve given an explanation as to why I posted it.

*So you have now decided to get snidey* when challenged and faced with facts I’d rather not bother with you.
		
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Thanks for that. Made my evening...literally crying here


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not in year 2/3/4/5. There not back yet, unless keyworkers kids.
I thought the problem was when the holidays start the vouchers stopped.
That’s been sorted by Marcus?
Well done to him .
		
Click to expand...

I didn't know it was voucher's, let's hope they use them wisely. Well done Marcus, what a role model. Although UK labour seen to be claiming all the credit now


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## AmandaJR (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I didn't know it was voucher's, let's hope they use them wisely. Well done Marcus, what a role model. Although UK labour seen to be claiming all the credit now
		
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I think it's been vouchers since the schools closed and actual schoolday meals not available.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I think it's been vouchers since the schools closed and actual schoolday meals not available.
		
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Shame they can't sort out meals instead of vouchers,


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I didn't know it was voucher's, let's hope they use them wisely. Well done Marcus, what a role model. Although UK labour seen to be claiming all the credit now
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272927879148515331


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## huds1475 (Jun 16, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm not saying that there isn't deprivation and that many families need more help, but with due respect Mrs D worked daily in a primary school for 27 years, knew the kids and the parents and there were a fair number on benefits but the parents were not spending the money on their kids and looked for every freebie going and, yes, they did have the things I mentioned. No, not all, not even the majority but then I haven't mentioned the ones on drugs,  alcoholics, those who assault their children etc etc!
I suspect when the Chair of Governers visits its like when Ofsted come
		
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Chris, I've quoted you because your post is less long winded than the other chaps, but my response isn't aimed at you only!

Whether kids parents are 'morally dubious', or not, isn't an issue. 

Children shouldn't be going hungry, and those of us who can afford to help (taxpayers) should.

This isnt a political issue, so let's not turn it into one?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Shame they can't sort out meals instead of vouchers,
		
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But then when they put on spag bol one day there would be complaints from parents that little Jonny doesn't like spag bol. At least with vouchers the parents will (hopefully) use it to buy food that their kids will like.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



*You’ve told HK he’s peed you off *as well as SILH, *I didn’t know that.*

Please stop with the rude comments, nowhere have I been rude, everything I’ve said I’ve backed up.

Feel free to disagree, but stop claiming I’m being rude, simply pointed out some inconsistencies in your posts which I have interpreted as moaning and disingenious.
		
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Neither did I to be honest.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Just a thought  but could the kids not go to school to get their free meals and have some tuition while they are there ?
		
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If you are talking about the summer holidays then very few school kitchens are open at the moment and even less will be in the summer holidays. And as for tuition then teachers will not be in in the summer holidays.  They have a contracted number of days like the rest of us so they are entitled to a holiday, like the rest of us.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Shame they can't sort out meals instead of vouchers,
		
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They have been for vulnerable kids .
But they can’t do it in the summer holidays as it’s closed.
It’s the maintenance of kitchens etc.


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## Mudball (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			You should be aware the PM usually does the  Wednesday briefing!!
		
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I dont.. i stopped watchign a few weeks ago as it is general BS. Over the past few weeks of trying to hunt for dental PPE made  me realise how we are yet to fix this massive gap.   
(now let me wait for someone to come along and say that the PPE thing is nonsense)..  BTW, depending on your treatment, this is how your next dental visit may look like


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## Mudball (Jun 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm not sure people do miss the facts. There are not unlimited funds. I saw a tory MP today quote it being a blunt tool and reminding us that Gordon Brown chose not to extend the scheme through school holidays. Personally I think it may be a blunt tool and not the greatest use of funds for the vulnerable BUT if it's the best tool we've got right now then we should use it and down the line find a better system to ensure the funds get to the most needy.

The government were wrong not to extend it through the holidays and have had to change their minds - that's good news whatever way you look at it. Should it have taken Rashford etc to appeal? No.
		
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When i started reading the post, i had a sense of dejavu come over...  First blame Labour (without any fact checking by the MP, not you), reference to the 'magic money tree' and lack of funds.  Then i read the second line and i agree with you..  I dont know what use are our funds, if we can feed the children of this country. All the billions we piss up on vanity projects like HS2, garden bridge etc, will easily pay for this.   the fact that a footy player had to remind the MPs is despicable


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			When i started reading the post, i had a sense of dejavu come over...  First blame Labour (without any fact checking by the MP, not you), reference to the 'magic money tree' and lack of funds.  Then i read the second line and i agree with you..  I dont know what use are our funds, if we can feed the children of this country. All the billions we piss up on vanity projects like HS2, garden bridge etc, will easily pay for this.   the fact that a footy player had to remind the MPs is despicable
		
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Pity a football player can do a better job than the Parliamentary opposition.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I dont.. i stopped watchign a few weeks ago as it is general BS. Over the past few weeks of trying to hunt for dental PPE made  me realise how we are yet to fix this massive gap.  
(now let me wait for someone to come along and say that the PPE thing is nonsense)..  BTW, depending on your treatment, this is how your next dental visit may look like






Click to expand...

You look in every crack and cranny for a reason to complain about the Government. Try just a little balance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

Hancock! You had one job.🤡


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273141009019437057


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hancock! You had one job.🤡


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273141009019437057

Click to expand...

I'm sure those who were so enraged about a black women possibly not knowing that Churchill was dead will be equally as enraged that one one of the leading politicians in our country does not know the name of one of the most famous people in the UK yesterday in terms of media coverage.  After all one is only in charge of our Covid response in terms of health, where as the other is in the powerful position of chair of an independent policy advisory committee in Lambeth  .

it is also entirely possible they both made a silly but unintentional slip up live on TV as people always will do.  But where's the fun in that narrative.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm sure those who were so enraged about a black women possibly not knowing that Churchill was dead will be equally as enraged that one one of the leading politicians in our country does not know the name of one of the most famous people in the UK yesterday in terms of media coverage.  After all one is only in charge of our Covid response in terms of health, where as the other is in the powerful position of chair of an independent policy advisory committee in Lambeth  .

it is also entirely possible they both made a silly but unintentional slip up live on TV as people always will do.  But where's the fun in that narrative.
		
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Said Rashford had done a “terrific” job! and I thought it was the Government’s job to look after the 3.5 million children in poverty! tories should be embarrassed by Rashford needing to get involved.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 17, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm not saying that there isn't deprivation and that many families need more help, but with due respect Mrs D worked daily in a primary school for 27 years, knew the kids and the parents and there were a fair number on benefits but the parents were not spending the money on their kids and looked for every freebie going and, yes, they did have the things I mentioned. No, not all, not even the majority but then I haven't mentioned the ones on drugs,  alcoholics, those who assault their children etc etc!
*I suspect when the Chair of Governers visits its like when Ofsted come*

Click to expand...

About 20 years ago maybe.  But times have changed when the chair was usually a member of the local Masons, drank sherry and mostly just proposed a vote of thanks to the head for all the hard work they were doing.  Nowadays I get a friendly hello from people in in the school when I pop in but they really do not care. And rightly so.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hancock! You had one job.🤡


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273141009019437057

Click to expand...

That explains what Dan Walker was joshing him about this morning. I was going to post in Things That Gladden how refreshing it was to see a journalist and politician having some genuine banter. Hancock's face was a picture as he genuinely chuckled at his faux pas. We so seldom see the human side of politicians and it struck me how we might view them ALL a bit differently if we saw that more often.

Please don't take this as a debate or that we have different opinions!


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## patricks148 (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hancock! You had one job.🤡


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273141009019437057

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look on the bright side at least he didn't give Daniel Radcliffe the credit


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hancock! You had one job.🤡


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273141009019437057

Click to expand...




AmandaJR said:



			That explains what Dan Walker was joshing him about this morning. I was going to post in Things That Gladden how refreshing it was to see a journalist and politician having some genuine banter. Hancock's face was a picture as he genuinely chuckled at his faux pas. We so seldom see the human side of politicians and it struck me how we might view them ALL a bit differently if we saw that more often.

Please don't take this as a debate or that we have different opinions!
		
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I saw him on BBC holding his hands up and laughing about this. Nice to see both the interviewer and the politician seeing the funny side, no points looking to be scored, a politician not inventing a feeble excuse. Two real humans at work


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## AmandaJR (Jun 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I saw him on BBC holding his hands up and laughing about this. Nice to see both the interviewer and the politician seeing the funny side, no points looking to be scored, a politician not inventing a feeble excuse. Two real humans at work 

Click to expand...

It stood out to me as so different from the norm and so refreshing. Dan Hancock (see what I did there!) looked a different man when he laughed - like the weight of the world was briefly lifted from his shoulders.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Pity a football player can do a better job than the Parliamentary opposition.
		
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Yep that's the take home message from this fiasco🙄
Still asking for a levy from foreign NHS workers and stopping meal vouchers for kids during the summer has nothing to do with the incumbent governments lack of moral compass and everything to do with the failures of the opposition. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

Ha Ha, Diane Abbott made 1 mistake about Police numbers and has been crucified for years! A tory makes a mistake and it’s human and refreshing to see.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Yep that's the take home message from this fiasco🙄
Still asking for a levy from foreign NHS workers and stopping meal vouchers for kids during the summer has nothing to do with the incumbent governments lack of moral compass and everything to do with the failures of the opposition. Thanks for clearing that up.
		
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10yrs and no tory spotted it! Damn those Labour politicians keeping it a secret.


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## Mudball (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You look in every crack and cranny for a reason to complain about the Government. Try just a little balance.
		
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i (think) i dont... if you go back to some of my earlier posts, i have been gushing over the financial packages.  I think the furlonging approach was very good and measured.  Unfortunately, they seem to get more wrong than right.  The clinical trials have been fantastic... equally the whole PPE and kids meal is omnishambles.
The PPE is very close to home for me and i can see the frustration first hand. Mrs put in '00s of her own money to order it so she can see her patients.  Despite that last night, the guy called to say, he could not source it. They also ordered bulk, and the quality that turned up had to be rejected, incl from so called british manufacturers - some of them are unscrupulously rebranding things from the far east and selling it at a premium.  Similarly i have seen some of the kid challenges, so i wont go into that one.  Let me not get started on DomCom

Finally, the favorite chestnut, Brexit.  Again, i have accepted we are leavers, but lets make it proper rather cheap political wrangling, point scoring and empty promises.


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## Mudball (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Pity a football player can do a better job than the Parliamentary opposition.
		
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We have got to a stage that we trust footy players more than MPs - on either side of the floor..  that is the travesty rather than calling out Labour or the opposition


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			We have got to a stage that we trust footy players more than MPs - on either side of the floor..  that is the travesty rather than calling out Labour or the opposition
		
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A result of going into the last election with 2 party leaders with historically low trust ratings so it was mostly who is the least worst. Reap what you sow and all that. Trust does matter but that seems to be increasingly forgotten in the rush to 'not be the opposition'.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Pity a football player can do a better job than the Parliamentary opposition.
		
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what a load of drivel. Starmer has been pushing Johnson for weeks to extend the scheme for the school holidays, and Johnson has refused to do so. The fact that he finally caves in after a 22yo footballer embarrasses him into it is hardly Labour's fault.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			what a load of drivel. Starmer has been pushing Johnson for weeks to extend the scheme for the school holidays, and Johnson has refused to do so. The fact that he finally caves in after a 22yo footballer embarrasses him into it is hardly Labour's fault.
		
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Starmer didnt do a very good job of convincing him then.

While I'm replying, you want to look at your posting style, its becoming very aggressive.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			i (think) i dont... if you go back to some of my earlier posts, i have been gushing over the financial packages.  I think the furlonging approach was very good and measured.  Unfortunately, they seem to get more wrong than right.  The clinical trials have been fantastic... equally the whole PPE and kids meal is omnishambles.
The PPE is very close to home for me and i can see the frustration first hand. Mrs put in '00s of her own money to order it so she can see her patients.  Despite that last night, the guy called to say, he could not source it. They also ordered bulk, and the quality that turned up had to be rejected, incl from so called british manufacturers - some of them are unscrupulously rebranding things from the far east and selling it at a premium.  Similarly i have seen some of the kid challenges, so i wont go into that one.  Let me not get started on DomCom

Finally, the favorite chestnut, Brexit.  Again, i have accepted we are leavers, but lets make it proper rather cheap political wrangling, point scoring and empty promises.
		
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Thanks for the well put reply.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Yep that's the take home message from this fiasco🙄
Still asking for a levy from foreign NHS workers and stopping meal vouchers for kids during the summer has nothing to do with the incumbent governments lack of moral compass and everything to do with the failures of the opposition. Thanks for clearing that up.
		
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Little bit of an extrapolation of my point there.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Little bit of an extrapolation of my point there.
		
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How is it?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			How is it?
		
Click to expand...

My comment was targeted at a football player being more effective than the opposition with school meal vouchers, not NHS  workers but if it suits your agenda...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			We have got to a stage that we trust footy players more than MPs - on either side of the floor..  that is the travesty rather than calling out Labour or the opposition
		
Click to expand...

And we have a H&SC secretary telling us this morning that the PM has made the right decision - to change his mind.  Well - they got to the correct place eventually.  we can be grateful for that.

But that then means that Hancock and/or the PM knew that what was previously announced (and that was defended vigorously by various ministers) was simply wrong. And as usual there is absolutely no acceptance of that by the government or most of it's supporters.   That Hancock goes on to praise Rashford for the way he put the case? All Rashford did was state the bleedin' obvious about how free meal vouchers help the poorest.  Rashford did not show brilliant insight and a completely new angle on the question - he simply stated the obvious - and he could do it from personal experience. 

Yet the government was unable to see that which was obvious - or rather they chose to not see the obvious.  And so they change their mind - not because of what Rashford said - but I suspect more on how the electorate _got _what Rashford said.  And when the government spotted the public view - only *then* did they change their mind.  So much for the vigorous case previously made against it.  And then the wind changed direction.

What a bunch.  Sorry.  I, and others, are accused of looking for holes in everything the government do.  But frankly that it isn't very difficult if you care to look (though it seems that many choose to look away or ignore them as they are thrust in our faces).   Many of the problems and U-turns the government experiences are nothing directly driven by the uncertainties around the pandemic.  Of course these will cause difficulties in measures to be taken and when - I absolutely get that.  But many problems and issues simply come about as a result of the government's _chosen _response to an issue arising and then how they sell it, and in that it is so often found to be wanting.

You might choose to defend the government to the hilt, but when we take an honest look at much of what has gone on I believe that most will find such things as are pointed out to be not quite as great as those defending Johnson and his government would themselves like to believe.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My comment was targeted at a football player being more effective than the opposition with school meal vouchers, not NHS  workers but if it suits your agenda...
		
Click to expand...

So moving the blame for an ill conceived policy onto the opposition does not suit your agenda?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Starmer didnt do a very good job of convincing him then.

While I'm replying, you want to look at your posting style, its becoming very aggressive.
		
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Do you seriously expect the PM to change his mind on something because of what the Leader of the Opposition has to say? If you really think that is a likely scenario, then why not provide some examples from, say, the last 20 years, when that has happened? Bet you can't.

Rashford didn't change his mind either. He changed his mind because his normally loyal newspapers got behind it, and then a groundswell of Tory MPs started calling for it.

Not sure why you found my previous reply "aggressive', there was no threat in it, I merely stated you were talking drivel, which you were if you really expected Starmer to be able to change Johnson's mind.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

Flash to bang time 4 days, listen, find money and agree a policy.


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## Beezerk (Jun 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Rashford didn't change his mind either. He changed his mind because his normally loyal newspapers got behind it, and then a groundswell of Tory MPs started calling for it.
		
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On the Beeb this morning they reported that BJ changed his mind after speaking to Rashford on the phone.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 17, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			On the Beeb this morning they reported that BJ changed his mind after speaking to Rashford on the phone.
		
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Do you believe everything the BBC says? 

Here's Johnson's pet newspaper's take on it 

More than a million school children will be given vouchers for free meals over the summer following pressure from cross-party MPs and footballer Marcus Rashford.
The Government has announced a new "Covid summer food fund" to cover the six-week summer holiday for children who qualify for free school meals,* fending off a looming Tory MP rebellion which was expected in a vote on Tuesday.*

*https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-therese-coffey-tackles-marcus-rashford-free/*


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

I suppose the extra £60 million given to councils for summer schools and activities a week ago to assist disadvantaged children is being lost in all the noise.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I suppose the extra £60 million given to councils for summer schools and activities a week ago to assist disadvantaged children is being lost in all the noise.
		
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A welcome gesture, but one well known issue with things like summer schools/after school clubs is that they tend to be used by the more affluent kids and the disadvantaged kids don't use them as much.  May be these will be targeted specifically at disadvantaged kids which will be useful.  If they'd of done the free school meals first then this it would have been such an easy PR victory for the government.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Do you seriously expect the PM to change his mind on something because of what the Leader of the Opposition has to say? If you really think that is a likely scenario, then why not provide some examples from, say, the last 20 years, when that has happened? Bet you can't.

Rashford didn't change his mind either. He changed his mind because his normally loyal newspapers got behind it, and then a groundswell of Tory MPs started calling for it.

Not sure why you found my previous reply "aggressive', there was no threat in it, I merely stated you were talking drivel, which you were if you really expected Starmer to be able to change Johnson's mind.
		
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Do you normally accuse people of talking drivel when face to face, probably not as it would be taken as an insult and with some unfortunate outcomes. You no doubt keep it for the keyboard where you feel  safe.   Please try a little harder to be polite even if someone has a different view.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who mentioned anything about blame.

Do you normally accuse people of talking drivel when face to face, probably not as it would be taken as an insult and with some unfortunate outcomes. You no doubt keep it for the keyboard where you feel  safe.   Please try a little harder to be polite even if someone has a different view.
		
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If that's all he is accusing you of take it from me that's polite for him. Never been called a racist before he decided I was one.


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## Beezerk (Jun 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Do you believe everything the BBC says?
		
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You know what, I knew you were going to come back with that. Tbh I don't really care how and why they changed their mind, I'm just happy they did.
Some people would whinge if BJ became a doctor and cured cancer "yeah but the tax payer paid for all his courses so ner ner"....


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## rudebhoy (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you normally accuse people of talking drivel when face to face, probably not as it would be taken as an insult and with some unfortunate outcomes. You no doubt keep it for the keyboard where you feel  safe.   Please try a little harder to be polite even if someone has a different view.
		
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Oh the irony, pretty rich given the number of snide remarks you come out with. Iirc, it's not that long since you had your knuckles rapped for that very thing.

Still, I guess it's easier for you to play the man rather than the ball. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to come up with an example of a PM changing his mind after listening to a Leader of the Opposition.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If that's all he is accusing you of take it from me that's polite for him. Never been called a racist before he decided I was one.
		
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I can beat that, someone called me an old racist on here recently


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## rudebhoy (Jun 17, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			You know what, I knew you were going to come back with that. Tbh I don't really care how and why they changed their mind, I'm just happy they did.
Some people would whinge if BJ became a doctor and cured cancer "yeah but the tax payer paid for all his courses so ner ner"....
		
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I'm pleased he changed his mind as well, but it was pure political expediency as reported widely this morning, not a conversion on the road to Damascus after speaking to Rashford.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Oh the irony, pretty rich given the number of snide remarks you come out with. Iirc, it's not that long since you had your knuckles rapped for that very thing.

Still, I guess it's easier for you to play the man rather than the ball. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to come up with an example of a PM changing his mind after listening to a Leader of the Opposition.
		
Click to expand...

You accuse me of talking 'Drivel' and then say I'm playing the man and not the ball


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## chrisd (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You accuse me of talking 'Drivel' and then say I'm playing the man and not the ball 

Click to expand...

Oh the irony of the irony 🤣🤣


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## rudebhoy (Jun 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You accuse me of talking 'Drivel' and then say I'm playing the man and not the ball 

Click to expand...

And? I explained quite clearly why the point you were trying to make was nonsensical. You haven't attempted to prove me wrong, all you do is call me aggressive, and come out with the old 'hiding behind a keyboard' cliché.

I'm all for having a discussion about the issues.

But I've made a mental note that you consider 'drivel' to be highly offensive so I won't use it again. Is 'rubbish' OK?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 17, 2020)

Time for people to take a break please

Before we lock the thread 😡


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## rulefan (Jun 17, 2020)

Please, please do.


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## Slab (Jun 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			A welcome gesture, but one well known issue with things like summer schools/after school clubs is that they tend to be used by the more affluent kids and the disadvantaged kids don't use them as much.  May be these will be targeted specifically at disadvantaged kids which will be useful. * If they'd of done the free school meals first then this it would have been such an easy PR victory for the government*.
		
Click to expand...

I dunno if I like the idea of any government basing decisions on whether its _"an easy PR victory"_ or not (although it likely already happens)


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## spongebob59 (Jun 18, 2020)

This is why they need to try and find a way to provide meals.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...m_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true


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## Wolf (Jun 18, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			This is why they need to try and find a way to provide meals.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...m_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

So you take one example of someone taking the piss and use that as reason to provide food and not vouchers.

For every 1 person behaving this way there will be thousands more using them to provide their children with the food they need. You can't just provide the actual meals to them at home because of dietary requirements, allergies etc. That would be a huge waste of food.


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## Reemul (Jun 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So you take one example of someone taking the piss and jse that as reason to provide food and not vouchers.

For every 1 person behaving this way there will be thousands more using them to provide their children with the food they need. You can't just provide the actual meals to them at home because of dietary requirements, allergies etc. That would be a huge waste of food.
		
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Yes this is one thing that has been so annoying and frustrating over the last 12 odd weeks.

More and more people find 1 or 2 examples of an issue and just blanket blame everyone. It's like 1 or 2 people do it so everyone does.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Yes this is one thing that has been so annoying and frustrating over the last 12 odd weeks.

More and more people find 1 or 2 examples of an issue and just blanket blame everyone. It's like 1 or 2 people do it so every does.
		
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Yes, that's right. It's a bit like calling White people institutional racists.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			This is why they need to try and find a way to provide meals.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...m_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

Whilst the salesmen who fiddle their expense accounts and the directors/self employed who fiddle their taxes are just dandy.
PS I think there is a lot more of them than dodgy parents fiddling school meal vouchers.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 18, 2020)

Ooops, the the app has been ditched.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273621929547702272


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Ooops, the the app has been ditched.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273621929547702272

Click to expand...

I couldn't possibly comment...


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## Dando (Jun 18, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			This is why they need to try and find a way to provide meals.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...m_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

its gets worse - apparently someone tried to buy Asda jewellery with a food voucher


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2020)

There's always one or two rogues out there receiving aid and misspending it.  Not a reason to stop distributing the aid though.  Plenty of folks using the vouchers as intended...


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## larmen (Jun 18, 2020)

What is it with food factories and the virus?

In Germany 6400 workers are in quarantine and 65% of them have been tested positive.
In the UK there are now multiple cases at food factories ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53091149 )
And I think in the US there were also massive outbreaks linked to them?

Is it because they are the only work facilities properly open and when the rest follows there will be a lot more?
Or is it the environment in the food production being 'good' for the virus to multiply?

And why suddenly now when we start easing?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2020)

For the two or three folk who were quite rude to me when I reported that my IOW BiL advised me that the app was crap


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There's always one or two rogues out there receiving aid and misspending it.  Not a reason to stop distributing the aid though.
		
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When you say misspending and rogues, are you talking about 900K on painting a plane?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2020)

larmen said:



			What is it with food factories and the virus?

In Germany 6400 workers are in quarantine and 65% of them have been tested positive.
In the UK there are now multiple cases at food factories ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53091149 )
And I think in the US there were also massive outbreaks linked to them?

Is it because they are the only work facilities properly open and when the rest follows there will be a lot more?
Or is it the environment in the food production being 'good' for the virus to multiply?

And why suddenly now when we start easing?
		
Click to expand...

I heard 2 explanations given relating to food factories, abbatoirs etc. Firstly they are often in close proximity, distancing is difficult. Secondly, and apparently more crucial,  the virus likes cold. The cold stabilises the virus and it becomes more virulent in those conditions. (I've deliberately used the word stabilise as that is what the expert said and it stuck in my mind.)


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			When you say misspending and rogues, are you talking about 900K on painting a plane?

Click to expand...

Red Marrow


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			When you say misspending and rogues, are you talking about 900K on painting a plane?

Click to expand...

Nah - someone will already be rationalising how that is money well spent...

Meanwhile back in the real world - as an American once said to me -  _Life's a bitch if you ain't rich._


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I heard 2 explanations given relating to food factories, abbatoirs etc. Firstly they are often in close proximity, distancing is difficult. Secondly, and apparently more crucial,  the virus likes cold. The cold stabilises the virus and it becomes more virulent in those conditions. (I've deliberately used the word stabilise as that is what the expert said and it stuck in my mind.)
		
Click to expand...

I've been wondering about that also given I have heard that in the states many major outbreaks are from meat processing plants.  In fact they don;t mention any other type of manufacturing or processing facility - it's always meat processing plants


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nah - someone will already be rationalising how that is money well spent...

Meanwhile back in the real world - as an American once said to me -  _Life's a bitch if you ain't rich._

Click to expand...

He will soon get fed up with 3 day old haverbags and cold coffee.


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## Backache (Jun 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I heard 2 explanations given relating to food factories, abbatoirs etc. Firstly they are often in close proximity, distancing is difficult. Secondly, and apparently more crucial,  the virus likes cold. The cold stabilises the virus and it becomes more virulent in those conditions. (I've deliberately used the word stabilise as that is what the expert said and it stuck in my mind.)
		
Click to expand...

I've heard both those plus the fact they are noisy places which means people shout a lot which creates a lot more spreading droplets.


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## rulefan (Jun 18, 2020)

I wonder why the BBC made no mention of the fact that the NHS app worked perfectly well with Android devices but not Apple. And then why they didn't explain why Apple would not make easy changes to enable it to work. Apple devices have the data needed but it seems won't make it available.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I wonder why the BBC made no mention of the fact that the NHS app worked perfectly well with Android devices but not Apple. And then why they didn't explain why Apple would not make easy changes enable it to work.
		
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Did you check how Sky News have reported it...maybe they reported it the same.

Besides.  It doesn't actually matter that the App worked with Android devices.  The job was to get it working on all SMART phones - and quite a few folks have Apple devices.

So as an App designed for use on ALL devices it can only be judged to be a total failure.  How about just accepting that rather than try and find excuses for yet another mess.

On the techie side.  Apple are known to resist giving access to their operating system for bespoke design (well they did 3 yrs ago when I worked on a project for a major government funded agency who wanted to get some user data out of a users Apple device - the app failed as Apple wouldn't give access to the data) .  The government app developers would have known this at the outset - and hence so would the government.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I wonder why the BBC made no mention of the fact that the NHS app worked perfectly well with Android devices but not Apple. And then why they didn't explain why Apple would not make easy changes to enable it to work. Apple devices have the data needed but it seems won't make it available.
		
Click to expand...

It's a BBC conspiracy against statues of slave traders, far right hooligans, Steve Jobs and Brexit.  And don't let any sane person tell you anything different.


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's a BBC conspiracy against statues of slave traders, far right hooligans, Steve Jobs and Brexit.  And don't let any sane person tell you anything different.
		
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Now that is Gammon


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## drdel (Jun 18, 2020)

The UK has been developing both approaches for the App. 

They have offered to share the UK developed algorithm with Apple so that the advantages of both will be combined.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			The UK has been developing both approaches for the App.

They have offered to share the UK developed algorithm with Apple so that the advantages of both will be combined.
		
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Do you have a source for that?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've been wondering about that also given I have heard that in the states many major outbreaks are from meat processing plants.  In fact they don;t mention any other type of manufacturing or processing facility - it's always meat processing plants
		
Click to expand...

You are right. I don't quite remember why I put food factories as that is inaccurate. It is cold places, meat processing, abbatoirs and the like.

I work about 50m from a shellfish processing factory, grim on a warm day 🤢. They are prime for this, it is all refrigerated, but thankfully the instances of the virus up here are small and so far it has not hit it.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 18, 2020)

Channel 4 excluded from asking questions at the daily briefing for 7 days in a row now. Must have been asking too many awkward questions.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Now that is Gammon
		
Click to expand...

I've learnt from the best on this forum.


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## Foxholer (Jun 18, 2020)

larmen said:



			What is it with food factories and the virus?

In Germany 6400 workers are in quarantine and 65% of them have been tested positive.
In the UK there are now multiple cases at food factories ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53091149 )
And I think in the US there were also massive outbreaks linked to them?

Is it because they are the only work facilities properly open and when the rest follows there will be a lot more?
*Or is it the environment in the food production being 'good' for the virus to multiply?*

And why suddenly now when we start easing?
		
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The bold bit! Lots of folk working in close proximity!
Btw. 'multiply' is not the right word - that happens within victims. 'spread' is the thing to be avoided.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you have a source for that?
		
Click to expand...

I think what it actually means is that the UK has been developing its own app, and testing the generic Google/Apple developed  app at the same time.

However, given that it's 6 weeks since Australia ditched their own app in favour of the Google / Apple app after hitting the iPhone issue, you have to ask why we have waited a month and a half to follow suit?


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you have a source for that?
		
Click to expand...


Would that be an Apple source?  I know, collect my own coat.


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## rulefan (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you have a source for that?
		
Click to expand...

It was on this evenings roadshow when Raab explained why the NHS app couldn't work with Apple and went on to tell us that the Apple/Google couldn't measure proximity accurately. So they've agreed to combine the best bits


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## Mudball (Jun 18, 2020)

I must admit, this is not the Toris fault... no UK Govt has been able to implement Technology in this country.  How soon, before the Tories blame Labour for the failed NHS IT system way back/last year in 2000.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/a...ter-it-detected-only-4-of-contacts-on-iphones 

What i love is Yet another U-turn...  after being told that the centralised model of T&T was far more superior than decentralised pushed by Apple & Google, now we  go back to them..   

In other news... the Govt cant decide on the colour for BoJos new plane, so use a committee..


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## Mudball (Jun 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It was on this evenings roadshow when Raab explained why the NHS app couldn't work with Apple and went on to tell us that the Apple/Google couldn't measure proximity accurately. So they've agreed to combine the best bits
		
Click to expand...

Gotta give Matt Hancock some credit..  Love the spin...


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It was on this evenings roadshow when Raab explained why the NHS app couldn't work with Apple and went on to tell us that the Apple/Google couldn't measure proximity accurately. So they've agreed to combine the best bits
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you have a source for that?
		
Click to expand...

Try BBC News


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

When someone persuades you that there is a better way to do something and you take on board their view its normally seen as a positive attribute and a sign of the Entente Cordiale, but not in these more enlightened times, it's now a 'Humiliating U Turn' 😄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2020)

- 



rulefan said:



			It was on this evenings roadshow when Raab explained why the NHS app couldn't work with Apple and went on to tell us that the Apple/Google couldn't measure proximity accurately. So they've agreed to combine the best bits
		
Click to expand...

Looking to work with Apple on our own App was always going to present a significant risk.

The coronavirus created the need; the government chose the solution - it had a choice.  It chose wrong - plain and simple.   It chose to develop a British 'perfect' but higher risk solution, over taking the sub-optimal (against UK requirements) off-the-shelf, low risk and proven solution.  And it wasn't as if there weren't many asking why we were going to plough our own furrow rather than adopt an existing and proven solution.

No matter - as ever, Johnson's fans will simply rationalise this mess to themselves and others as being of less importance than was originally suggested, or someone else's fault.  In this case we misunderstood if we thought the App was key to test and trace - it was never intended to be anything more than the icing on the cake - and of course it is Apple's fault that the App failed.  Sorted.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			-
Looking to work with Apple on our own App was always going to present a significant risk.

The coronavirus created the need; the government chose the solution - it had a choice.  It chose wrong - plain and simple.   It chose to develop a British 'perfect' but higher risk solution, over taking the sub-optimal (against UK requirements) off-the-shelf, low risk and proven solution.  And it wasn't as if there weren't many asking why we were going to plough our own furrow rather than adopt an existing and proven solution.

No matter - as ever, Johnson's fans will simply rationalise this mess to themselves and others as being of less importance than was originally suggested, or someone else's fault.  In this case we misunderstood if we thought the App was key to test and trace - it was never intended to be anything more than the icing on the cake - and of course it is Apple's fault that the App failed.  Sorted.
		
Click to expand...

I'll think you'll find you're wrong in those assertions SiLH it's Keir Starmer's fault for not providing a robust enough opposition.


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

If the UK app was working on Andriod they should have stuck with it, more have Andriod than overpriced Apple products anyway.


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I'll think you'll find you're wrong in those assertions SiLH it's Keir Starmer's fault for not providing a robust enough opposition.
		
Click to expand...

Your learning


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I'll think you'll find you're wrong in those assertions SiLH it's Keir Starmer's fault for not providing a robust enough opposition.
		
Click to expand...

Fair comment 😄


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## rudebhoy (Jun 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			-


No matter - as ever, Johnson's fans will simply rationalise this mess to themselves and others as being of less importance than was originally suggested, or someone else's fault.  In this case we misunderstood if we thought the App was key to test and trace - it was never intended to be anything more than the icing on the cake - and of course it is Apple's fault that the App failed.  Sorted.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. A few weeks ago we were promised 'a world beating app'. Now we can't deliver it, it's just the cherry on the cake. Never mind that without it, it's impossible to trace people that carriers sat beside on public transport, it's now just a nice-to-have.


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## Foxholer (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I'll think you'll find you're wrong in those assertions SiLH it's Keir Starmer's fault for not providing a robust enough opposition.
		
Click to expand...


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## Foxholer (Jun 18, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Spot on. A few weeks ago we were promised 'a world beating app'. Now we can't deliver it, it's just the cherry on the cake. Never mind that without it, it's impossible to trace people that carriers sat beside on public transport, it's now just a nice-to-have.
		
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Of course, if they'd have checked into it just a tiny bit, they'd have realised Apple's (not unreasonable/totally reasonable) policy of 'absolute privacy' was always going to clobber any real ability to use track/trace with Iphones! Apple's proprietry app is the obvious way to go - but there's likely some sort of cost involved.


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## larmen (Jun 18, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Of course, if they'd have checked into it just a tiny bit, they'd have realised Apple's (not unreasonable/totally reasonable) policy of 'absolute privacy' was always going to clobber any real ability to use track/trace with Iphones! Apple's proprietry app is the obvious way to go - but there's likely some sort of cost involved.
		
Click to expand...

Is that the one Germany’s app is based on?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-app-as-eu-eyes-travel-revival-idUSKBN23N160
It’s through work with apple and google (alphabet?) and no user information is stored anywhere.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If the UK app was working on Andriod they should have stuck with it, more have Andriod than overpriced Apple products anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Our App was only 75% successful on Android, 4% on Iphone, Google/Apple App is 99% successful on both Android and Iphone.


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## Mudball (Jun 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			When someone persuades you that there is a better way to do something and you take on board their view its normally seen as a positive attribute and a sign of the Entente Cordiale, but not in these more enlightened times, it's now a 'Humiliating U Turn' 😄
		
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Agree with that... however things are slightly different. First you don’t listen/agree with something that you were told earlier AND you go to market to say why your system is better than initial suggestion.  Then the techies or a footy player points out that the emperor has no clothes.. then you go and use the original suggestion ... that is called U-turn rather than a positive attitude ..


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## drdel (Jun 18, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you have a source for that?
		
Click to expand...

Matt Hancock, 17:00 Press briefing today.

What amazes me is why it seems its a common media sport to put the UK down in order to have a dig at the UK Government. The PM and ministers aren't the writers of the program code. We have some of the best software and App developers in the world and its time we grew up.

Our developer found that the Apple device based approach miss-calculated distance because of the way the blue-tooth function operates under iOS. An approach to Apple to change their Blue-tooth handshaking was blanked and that prevented the UK's server based system from getting the level of accuracy required.

Our UK developers are trying to get Google - Apple to coordinate and collaborate with the UK so BOTH methods gain: seems to be a dam good idea to me.

All other countries are having issues with their distance estimation algorithm and the UK's is recognised to be the best mathematical algorithmic approaches and is being shared.


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## pendodave (Jun 18, 2020)

Another day, another **** up. 
I find the attitude of the toryboyz on here so dispiriting. Why not just say that despite your preference for a right of centre government, the current cabinet are a bunch of incompetents. 
At least it would be intellectually coherent. 
Unlike almost all of the stuff posted...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Another day, another **** up.
I find the attitude of the toryboyz on here so dispiriting. Why not just say that despite your preference for a right of centre government, the current cabinet are a bunch of incompetents.
At least it would be intellectually coherent.
Unlike almost all of the stuff posted...
		
Click to expand...

And you call us Tory Boys, intellectualy incoherent, dispiriting,  while criticising attitudes. Come on now, you are the exact inverse of that you castigate, try a little balance yourself and maybe we could all have a reasoned debate...


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## Mudball (Jun 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			Matt Hancock, 17:00 Press briefing today.

What amazes me is why it seems its a common media sport to put the UK down in order to have a dig at the UK Government. The PM and ministers aren't the writers of the program code. We have some of the best software and App developers in the world and its time we grew up.

Our developer found that the Apple device based approach miss-calculated distance because of the way the blue-tooth function operates under iOS. An approach to Apple to change their Blue-tooth handshaking was blanked and that prevented the UK's server based system from getting the level of accuracy required.

Our UK developers are trying to get Google - Apple to coordinate and collaborate with the UK so BOTH methods gain: seems to be a dam good idea to me.

All other countries are having issues with their distance estimation algorithm and the UK's is recognised to be the best mathematical algorithmic approaches and is being shared.
		
Click to expand...

Calling out an incompetent set of people does not equating to putting the country down.. Sorry to say, that statement is straight from the PR handbook that ties one bad thing to a greater bad thing.  e.g. Anyone who votes Trump is a Racist or Mad or both..  
Let me give 2 examples of good and bad... 

1) At one stage, we were in panic to scale up on ventilators.. good response.  Then we went past the peak and we dont need so many ventis,.... good response.
On the other hand T&T app was central to our way to control it ..... nothing has changed, in fact we need it even more after lifting of lockdown, but suddenly it is no longer priority.  It will be available in winter!!!  WTF response

2) 
if I buy the argument that Apple & Google said no, and hence we are changing... 
Then it is followed by 'Other countries are having the same problem'...  ok, still buying
'So we are now going to adopt the (non-working) method used by other countries!!!'... WTF...    

... Surely the 3 lines dont add up... if you know something is not working, then why do it.   Singapore went down the wrist band route rather than app route.  Is  there another option?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 18, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Calling out an incompetent set of people does not equating to putting the country down.. Sorry to say, that statement is straight from the PR handbook that ties one bad thing to a greater bad thing.  e.g. Anyone who votes Trump is a Racist or Mad or both.. 
Let me give 2 examples of good and bad...

1) At one stage, we were in panic to scale up on ventilators.. good response.  Then we went past the peak and we dont need so many ventis,.... good response.
On the other hand T&T app was central to our way to control it ..... nothing has changed, in fact we need it even more after lifting of lockdown, but suddenly it is no longer priority.  It will be available in winter!!!  WTF response

2)
if I buy the argument that Apple & Google said no, and hence we are changing...
Then it is followed by 'Other countries are having the same problem'...  ok, still buying
'So we are now going to adopt the (non-working) method used by other countries!!!'... WTF...   

... Surely the 3 lines dont add up... if you know something is not working, then why do it.   *Singapore went down the wrist band route rather than app route. * Is  there another option?
		
Click to expand...

What's the "wristband route"? This is a genuine question as I haven't heard anything about it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Agree with that... however things are slightly different. First you don’t listen/agree with something that you were told earlier AND you go to market to say why your system is better than initial suggestion.  Then the techies or a footy player points out that the emperor has no clothes.. then you go and use the original suggestion ... that is called U-turn rather than a positive attitude ..
		
Click to expand...

I prefer to consider it a change of mind after considering an alternative view. Would it be better if they stuck solidly to their opinion and completely ignored other viewpoints, they would get a media pasting for doing that so its a rather 'no win' situation out there.  I dont know about you but during my career I changed policy at times after someone explained a different viewpoint or technicality.  As someone has suggested, politicians are not normally the expert in the subject matter, much of it is very complex or has implications that are very technical, social or ecconomic that they have to rely on the expert civil servants and advisors for direction.  OK, I accept some things look straight forward but they can have deeper implications.


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## rulefan (Jun 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			-
  It chose to develop a British 'perfect' but higher risk solution, over taking the sub-optimal (against UK requirements) off-the-shelf, low risk and proven solution.  And it wasn't as if there weren't many asking why we were going to plough our own furrow rather than adopt an existing and proven solution
		
Click to expand...

So what was this existing and proven solution?  The Apple/Google app doesn't work either. It can't measure distance, which seems to be pretty fundamental when considering proximity.


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## Mudball (Jun 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I prefer to consider it a change of mind after considering an alternative view. Would it be better if they stuck solidly to their opinion and completely ignored other viewpoints, they would get a media pasting for doing that so its a rather 'no win' situation out there.  I dont know about you but during my career I changed policy at times after someone explained a different viewpoint or technicality.  As someone has suggested, politicians are not normally the expert in the subject matter, much of it is very complex or has implications that are very technical, social or ecconomic that they have to rely on the expert civil servants and advisors for direction.  OK, I accept some things look straight forward but they can have deeper implications.
		
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I change all the time, but i dont make it a habit to first (mod edit) over the original idea as rubbish and then change it when the whole thing blows up under pressure.  And also when i change, i have the humilty to accept that i made a mistake and therefore changed - not try and put more spin on it


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I change all the time, but* i dont make it a habit to first (Mod Edit)over the original idea as rubbish and then change it when the whole thing blows up under pressure.*  And also when i change, i have the humilty to accept that i made a mistake and therefore changed - not try and put more spin on it
		
Click to expand...

That's a bit strong language. I dont think anyone actually did that, I dont know if you've worked in developing software but it's a complex procedure and prone to having to rethink specifications and timescales.  I'm struggling to remember a project that didnt have to be respecified or was produced on time. Incorrect decisions do get made, things do have to be changed when something blows up under pressure but dont let's start thinking this is a specific problem to the current Government.


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## Mudball (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a bit strong language. I dont think anyone actually did that,* I dont know if you've worked in developing software* but it's a complex procedure and prone to having to rethink specifications and timescales.  I'm struggling to remember a project that didnt have to be respecified or was produced on time. Incorrect decisions do get made, things do have to be changed when something blows up under pressure but dont let's start thinking this is a specific problem to the current Government.
		
Click to expand...

Only 20 years or so.. but still learning.   Agree its complex.. i m not debating the s/w development process, i am talking about the way it is being managed. 



ColchesterFC said:



			What's the "wristband route"? This is a genuine question as I haven't heard anything about it.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies i should have said Hong Kong rather than Singapore - thought i thought Sg was doing the same. But if i was an MP, i would probably laugh it off as both are the same.. 
https://qz.com/1822215/hong-kong-uses-tracking-wristbands-for-coronavirus-quarantine/


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Apologies i should have said Hong Kong rather than Singapore - thought i thought Sg was doing the same. But if i was an MP, i would probably laugh it off as both are the same..
https://qz.com/1822215/hong-kong-uses-tracking-wristbands-for-coronavirus-quarantine/

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I hadn't heard of that before. My only concern would be whether it was possible to remove the wristband and leave it at home while I went out shopping. I'm not trying to denigrate the system, as at first look it seems better than anything we currently have in place, but just wondered how east it was to subvert the aims of it.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If the UK app was working on Andriod they should have stuck with it, more have Andriod than overpriced Apple products anyway.
		
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Great idea, let's go for a solution that doesn't work for the phone with 49.24% market share in the UK. That will teach the sheep for buying overpriced phones!


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I prefer to consider it a change of mind after considering an alternative view. Would it be better if they stuck solidly to their opinion and completely ignored other viewpoints, they would get a media pasting for doing that so its a rather 'no win' situation out there.  I dont know about you but during my career I changed policy at times after someone explained a different viewpoint or technicality.  As someone has suggested, politicians are not normally the expert in the subject matter, much of it is very complex or has implications that are very technical, social or ecconomic that they have to rely on the expert civil servants and advisors for direction.  OK, I accept some things look straight forward but they can have deeper implications.
		
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Changing your mind in light of new information is fine, however dismissing the key functionality the app was due to deliver as 'the cherry on the cake' simply because you don't know how to deliver it is disingenuous in the extreme and is treating your customer (the British public) like idiots.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Calling out an incompetent set of people does not equating to putting the country down.. Sorry to say, that statement is straight from the PR handbook that ties one bad thing to a greater bad thing.  e.g. Anyone who votes Trump is a Racist or Mad or both..
Let me give 2 examples of good and bad...

1) At one stage, we were in panic to scale up on ventilators.. good response.  Then we went past the peak and we dont need so many ventis,.... good response.
On the other hand T&T app was central to our way to control it ..... nothing has changed, in fact we need it even more after lifting of lockdown, but suddenly it is no longer priority.  It will be available in winter!!!  WTF response

2)
if I buy the argument that Apple & Google said no, and hence we are changing...
Then it is followed by 'Other countries are having the same problem'...  ok, still buying
'So we are now going to adopt the (non-working) method used by other countries!!!'... WTF... 

... Surely the 3 lines dont add up... if you know something is not working, then why do it.   Singapore went down the wrist band route rather than app route.  Is  there another option?
		
Click to expand...

A u-turn? James cleverly played a ’blinder’ last night on QT explaining how this app fiasco was nothing of the sort - how it was the right thing to ‘back both horses’ then choose.  Which is what we’ve done.

Fiona Bruce asked if that was indeed the case - then the alternative will have been in development and testing alongside the NHSX App and so ready or almost ready for us to download - yes? if not now then when - has to be soon surely.  His squirming as he avoided answering - avoiding saying anything that suggested that was not the case was almost embarrassing as it seemed pretty obvious he was simply making it up as he went along.

In the end what we had with Cleverley was yet another example of a government who despite what they say seem to not really understand the need to be realistic, open and honest with us...a government full of hubris and exceptionalism, but empty of humility and honesty.  It was depressing listening to him.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A u-turn? James cleverly played a ’blinder’ last night on QT explaining how this app fiasco was nothing of the sort - how it was the right thing to ‘back both horses’ then choose.  Which is what we’ve done.

Fiona Bruce asked if that was indeed the case - then the alternative will have been in development and testing alongside the NHSX App and so ready or almost ready for us to download - yes? if not now then when - has to be soon surely.  His squirming as he avoided answering - avoiding saying anything that suggested that was not the case was almost embarrassing as it seemed pretty obvious he was simply making it up as he went along.

In the end what we had with Cleverley was yet another example of a government who despite what they say seem to not really understand the need to be realistic, open and honest with us...a government full of hubris and exceptionalism, but empty of humility and honesty.  It was depressing listening to him.
		
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This 'backing both horses' line is no doubt Cummings' brainwave excuse, unfortunately even the most loyal of Tory papers aren't falling for it.


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## bobmac (Jun 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was depressing listening to him.
		
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Are you still looking for things to depress and annoy you?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're worrying yourself to a heart attack.
Let other people who are paid to worry, do the worrying and stop looking for trouble.
You'll be a lot happier, less stressed and live longer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			The UK has been developing both approaches for the App.

They have offered to share the UK developed algorithm with Apple so that the advantages of both will be combined.
		
Click to expand...

So why did Hancock fail to mention this in his previous briefings


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Great idea, let's go for a solution that doesn't work for the phone with 49.24% market share in the UK. That will teach the sheep for buying overpriced phones!
		
Click to expand...

The IOW folk recognised that in the first week.
They said having a note book and pencil on you and writing down the names of all the people you meet with in a day was a much better option.


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## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Great idea, let's go for a solution that doesn't work for the phone with 49.24% market share in the UK. That will teach the sheep for buying overpriced phones!
		
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So android phones have the market share and the experts said android was more accurate with location device so it's a choice to be made. It seems the sheep world wide are way behind with 74% of the share going to android.

Neither app seems to do the perfect job so the sheep have it.


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## drdel (Jun 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s the opposite isn’t it? Drop our App for an App that gets 99%, win/win for both android and ios users.

Not sure about the world wide comment, it’s the UK Government that have made the decision to drop their App.
		
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Wrong. Both apps work. Neither has been dropped. The plan is to combine the approaches and use the UK algorithm and functionality on both Android and iOS so that the accuracy is sufficient for the UK.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So android phones have the market share and the experts said android was more accurate with location device so it's a choice to be made. It seems the sheep world wide are way behind with 74% of the share going to android.

Neither app seems to do the perfect job so the sheep have it.
		
Click to expand...

Actually, neither is fit for purpose, so it's pointless rolling out either.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			Wrong. Both apps work. Neither has been dropped. The plan is to combine the approaches and use the UK algorithm and functionality on both Android and iOS so that the accuracy is sufficient for the UK.
		
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so all the reports on tv and in the press were wrong, and the homegrown app hasn't been dropped? 

have Apple agreed to incorporate what has been developed here in their app?

Even the Daily Mail is calling it a fiasco, but some on here are pretending it's all going well. Incredible.


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## GB72 (Jun 19, 2020)

So, we are now officially down to level 3. As good news normally results in Boris coming to the podium tonight (not a political dig, he just does seem to like to deliver the good news) what chance of him announcing the next raft of relaxations. I can see some formal announcements being made for the beginning of July to allow 2 weeks of prep time as was given to the retail sector. My bet is on hairdressers, beauty salons and a tentative move on pubs and restaurants. Can also see groups of up to 10 allowed to meet outside and perhaps even one other household being allowed to meet inside.


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## GB72 (Jun 19, 2020)

In all honesty, I really do not care what has happened to date on the app. What I am relieved about is that someone has put there hand up, said our one is not working and moved on to something else rather than try and save face by struggling on with what we had started with which is something that governments from both sides of the house have been guilty of in the past.


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## drdel (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			so all the reports on tv and in the press were wrong, and the homegrown app hasn't been dropped?

have Apple agreed to incorporate what has been developed here in their app?

Even the Daily Mail is calling it a fiasco, but some on here are pretending it's all going well. Incredible.
		
Click to expand...

If you want to look at it from that viewpoint: both have been dropped.


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## Beezerk (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			so all the reports on tv and in the press were wrong, and the homegrown app hasn't been dropped?
		
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And you believe everything you see on tv and in the newspapers?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			If you want to look at it from that viewpoint: both have been dropped.
		
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There is a difference. The Apple app needs life saving surgery, but the homegrown app has been pronounced dead.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 19, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			And you believe everything you see on tv and in the newspapers? 

Click to expand...

Not always, but they are right this time.


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## Beezerk (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Not always, but they are right this time.
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe they are right when it suits your narrative?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			This 'backing both horses' line is no doubt Cummings' brainwave excuse, unfortunately even the most loyal of Tory papers aren't falling for it.




View attachment 31294

Click to expand...

Cleverly pushed the line that the government would be putting the best of both solution together to create a hybrid.  Apple today have said they have had no discussions whatsoever about building a 'hybrid' - and so would know not what Cleverly was talking about.  Well of course they wouldn't - he was just making it up as he went along (or trying a line that Dom had spun for him to use)

And as far as the suggestion that I should stop listening to government ministers and MPs as they continue to disappoint and frustrate me so much.  Really?  I am afraid that my not watching and listening does not make the incompetence of this bunch go away.  We surely all have a 'civic duty' to at least try to listen to what ministers and MPs say - and try to understand what is being directed to me as a member of the public.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			so all the reports on tv and in the press were wrong, and the homegrown app hasn't been dropped?

*have Apple agreed to incorporate what has been developed here in their app?*

Even the Daily Mail is calling it a fiasco, but some on here are pretending it's all going well. Incredible.
		
Click to expand...

I believe that Apple have this morning said that they know nothing about a 'hybrid'.  Besides - when did we first hear of this twin track approach to the app development - and the possibility of creating a 'best of both worlds' hybrid.  Yes I know.  When Matt told us about it yesterday.  

And yet and still the Johnson lovers rationalise and convince themselves that this was always what was the best thing, and in fact what was intended - so government has nothing to apologise about.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

GB72 said:



			In all honesty, I really do not care what has happened to date on the app. What I am relieved about is that someone has put there hand up, said our one is not working and moved on to something else rather than try and save face by struggling on with what we had started with which is something that governments from both sides of the house have been guilty of in the past.
		
Click to expand...

That's far too sensible a post.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's far too sensible a post.
		
Click to expand...

Were it actually truer that we might wish it to be.  Watch and listen to Cleverly last night on QT - wriggling and inventing to avoid admitting misstep or u-turn on the part of the government, and trying his utmost to save face...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Were it actually truer that we might wish it to be.  Watch and listen to Cleverly last night on QT - wriggling and inventing to avoid admitting misstep or u-turn on the part of the government, and trying his utmost to save face...
		
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You may be happy with using 'U Turn' as an insult to the Government but I dont agree. Its become the latest buzz word to use as a blunt insult where there is a change of policy for what ever reason. I thought Cleverly spoke well and if you listened to Steve Parish he explained very clearly that the comments critisising the governments handling of developing an app for tracing were unfair.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Were it actually truer that we might wish it to be.  Watch and listen to Cleverly last night on QT - wriggling and inventing to avoid admitting misstep or u-turn on the part of the government, and trying his utmost to save face...
		
Click to expand...

He was awful, fancy being made to look like a total numpty by the cutting interrogating questioning of Fiona Bruce 
I can never understand why the Tories keep putting him up for QT, guaranteed car crash every time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You may be happy with using 'U Turn' as an insult to the Government but I dont agree. Its become the latest buzz word to use as a blunt insult where there is a change of policy for what ever reason. I thought Cleverly spoke well and if you listened to Steve Parish he explained very clearly that the comments critisising the governments handling of developing an app for tracing were unfair.
		
Click to expand...

It's not simply 'I' who is using it - most observers and commentators who are not government sycophants are describing it thus.  However ... since the NHX-X app was the chosen way to go when there were two very clear routes - then to change the route to go the alternative is, I think most will agree, at best a significant change of direction and change of plan.

And you surely have to be joking if you think that Cleverly spoke well last night on QT.  Good grief.  Well?

Just listen back to his waffling around - seemingly making it up as he went along.  Remind me of his answer to Fiona Bruce's question _'If you have been backing both horses then I assume you will have been having the Google/Apple-based solution development well underway and in testing - and so when will it be ready and available to download'_.  Please remind me of his answer to that.  Because from what I was hearing he was not being 100% open and honest.

As far as Parish being less critical.  Well that was his opinion - the rest took the opposite view.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2020)

Can I just say I like the approach the government is taking with the extra schools finding in that they are allowing schools to tailor the way they spend the money. This is a good thing as the schools will know where the money should be best spent and do not need yet more dictats on it must be spent here and there. There you go, some government praise, told you I was balanced, I have a chip on both shoulders.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I just say I like the approach the government is taking with the extra schools finding in that they are allowing schools to tailor the way they spend the money. This is a good thing as the schools will know where the money should be best spent and do not need yet more dictats on it must be spent here and there. There you go, some government praise, told you I was balanced, I have a chip on both shoulders.
		
Click to expand...

Reaches for a Scotch.


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## larmen (Jun 19, 2020)

With Germany testing the 1st dose of vaccination today, have we ever heard anything back on how the Oxford trials are looking like?
Not final results, but maybe some if the scientists saying it looks promising or not.


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## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2020)

larmen said:



			With Germany testing the 1st dose of vaccination today, have we ever heard anything back on how the Oxford trials are looking like?
Not final results, but maybe some if the scientists saying it looks promising or not.
		
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Oxford been testing for over a month now and London group started last week with a different vaccine. AstraZeneca working with the Oxford group https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/16/ast...ne-likely-to-protect-for-a-year-ceo-says.html


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not simply 'I' who is using it - most observers and commentators who are not government sycophants are describing it thus.  However ... since the NHX-X app was the chosen way to go when there were two very clear routes - then to change the route to go the alternative is, I think most will agree, at best a significant change of direction and change of plan.

And you surely have to be joking if you think that Cleverly spoke well last night on QT.  Good grief.  Well?

Just listen back to his waffling around - seemingly making it up as he went along.  Remind me of his answer to Fiona Bruce's question _'If you have been backing both horses then I assume you will have been having the Google/Apple-based solution development well underway and in testing - and so when will it be ready and available to download'_.  Please remind me of his answer to that.  Because from what I was hearing he was not being 100% open and honest.

As far as Parish being less critical.  Well that was his opinion - the rest took the opposite view.
		
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Blimey, has everyone forgotten what the word "trial" means?
There was a highly technical piece of equipment needed testing to see if the concept actually worked on the ground and in the circumstances of what they would be when rolled out for full use.
For technological reasons it didn't work, - so, any reasonable responsible body, 
business, or organisation would not pursue it and foist it on to the public knowing it doesn't work.
So what have the government done wrong in finding out it didn't work..?
So, tell me SILH, as "knocker in chief", if the Oxford Uni trials of the vaccine do not work, will you be rubbing your hands in glee, straining at the bit in anticipation of criticising and rubbishing this government for getting it wrong?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Blimey, has everyone forgotten what the word "trial" means?
There was a highly technical piece of equipment needed testing to see if the concept actually worked on the ground and in the circumstances of what they would be when rolled out for full use.
For technological reasons it didn't work, - so, any reasonable responsible body,
business, or organisation would not pursue it and foist it on to the public knowing it doesn't work.
So what have the government done wrong in finding out it didn't work..?
So, tell me SILH, as "knocker in chief", if the Oxford Uni trials of the vaccine do not work, will you be rubbing your hands in glee, straining at the bit in anticipation of criticising and rubbishing this government for getting it wrong?
		
Click to expand...

From what I can recall did not a certain somebody claim that the IOW 'trials' were showcasing 'bestest in the world' technology.
Perhaps he should have taken your advice.
Was it the Barnard Castle company who were developing this technology


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## spongebob59 (Jun 20, 2020)

All trials will be regulated by the MHRA and FDA, unless you are Donald Trump in which case you just take it.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Blimey, has everyone forgotten what the word "trial" means?
There was a highly technical piece of equipment needed testing to see if the concept actually worked on the ground and in the circumstances of what they would be when rolled out for full use.
For technological reasons it didn't work, - so, any reasonable responsible body,
business, or organisation would not pursue it and foist it on to the public knowing it doesn't work.
So what have the government done wrong in finding out it didn't work..?
So, tell me SILH, as "knocker in chief", if the Oxford Uni trials of the vaccine do not work, will you be rubbing your hands in glee, straining at the bit in anticipation of criticising and rubbishing this government for getting it wrong?
		
Click to expand...

They didn't need to go to the IOW to find out that the homegrown "centralised" solution was unlikely to work on iPhones. Germany changed from a centralised to a decentralised solution in late April after Apple and Google told everyone their bluetooth would only work with a decentralised solution. Australia changed tack in the same way a couple of days later.

Not sure why it took another 6 weeks to come to the same conclusion here. 

In any case, if they were following a standard test life cycle (which they would have been), technical testing on iPhones would have happened long before the Field Test.


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## rulefan (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			In any case, if they were following a standard test life cycle (which they would have been), technical testing on iPhones would have happened long before the Field Test.
		
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As I understand it, the iPhone link could have worked but Apple wouldn't provide the necessary access facility.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As I understand it, the iPhone link could have worked but Apple wouldn't provide the necessary access facility.
		
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From what I was told by someone who was following the situation , apple and Google said they could get it working on their app. The gov picked another one run by Cambridge analytica . Apple and Google would keep all person data seperate and not give access out to it where as the Cambridge app was a data harvest.. apple won't allow access as it would defeat the privacy standards 

Underhand tactics by the gov


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			From what I was told by someone who was following the situation , apple and Google said they could get it working on their app. The gov picked another one run by Cambridge analytica . Apple and Google would keep all person data seperate and not give access out to it where as the Cambridge app was a data harvest.. apple won't allow access as it would defeat the privacy standards

Underhand tactics by the gov
		
Click to expand...

Your prejudice is showing.

Cambridge analytica hasn't existed for two years now!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Your prejudice is showing.

Cambridge analytica hasn't existed for two years now!
		
Click to expand...

I apologize if I got the company wrong however the concept is the same. 

More control and fear over data .

https://www.theregister.com/2020/05/20/mod_covid_19_app_data_anonymising/

Whilst the fear exist people won't download the app making it pointless.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Your prejudice is showing.

Cambridge analytica hasn't existed for two years now!
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53114251

Sums it up nicely with the centralised data storage .. who wants to hand over their data to this gov?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53114251

Sums it up nicely with the centralised data storage .. who wants to hand over their data to this gov?
		
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Wait a minute and I will send you a tinfoil hat!

I am sure that the Government are just waiting to  collate data on my movements. 

Just like all the commercial organisations that already have it.

I'm sorry but I find such concerns pathetic when viewed in relation to the important issues of the day.


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## drdel (Jun 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53114251

Sums it up nicely with the centralised data storage .. who wants to hand over their data to this gov?
		
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Bluetooth handshaking contains GPS location and phone ID no personal ID. 

Paranoia - your NHS, HMRC (hence Bank), Council tax, etc, etc data is already within the hands of Government.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Wait a minute and I will send you a tinfoil hat!

I am sure that the Government are just waiting to  collate data on my movements.

Just like all the commercial organisations that already have it.

I'm sorry but I find such concerns pathetic when viewed in relation to the important issues of the day.
		
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No I agree with the close the app should almost be forced to be used imo for the good of the nation but whilst concerns over privacy are there with this untrustworthy gov then some people won't download .. which will make the exercise much less effective.

The apple and Google suggested app seems a happy middle ground as if somebody has and uses a smart phone they already trust apple or Google with their data so more likely to agree to it.. plus apple and Google can push them to phones if needed 

I'm not concerned about my data, I'm concerned the gov is acting on their best interests or of those of their friends rather than the nation 

Like the ventilator deal where a firm (can't remember name will find article in a min) could have supplied enough and was turned down in favour of Dyson .. a job for the boys who has never made a ventilator


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53114251

Sums it up nicely with the centralised data storage .. who wants to hand over their data to this gov?
		
Click to expand...

Got any store cards


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As I understand it, the iPhone link could have worked but Apple wouldn't provide the necessary access facility.
		
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Which they stated right from the start. So it was never going to work. Apple provided an API which would have allowed a decentralised app to work but we chose to go for a different option.


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## drdel (Jun 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Got any store cards
		
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+ Amazon
+ Ebay
+ +


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			No I agree with the close the app should almost be forced to be used imo for the good of the nation but whilst concerns over privacy are there with this untrustworthy gov then some people won't download .. which will make the exercise much less effective.

The apple and Google suggested app seems a happy middle ground as if somebody has and uses a smart phone they already trust apple or Google with their data so more likely to agree to it.. plus apple and Google can push them to phones if needed

I'm not concerned about my data, I'm concerned the gov is acting on their best interests or of those of their friends rather than the nation

Like the ventilator deal where a firm (can't remember name will find article in a min) could have supplied enough and was turned down in favour of Dyson .. a job for the boys who has never made a ventilator
		
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Bit like appointing the wife of a Tory MP with no medical or scientific experience to head up T&T. Her main claim to fame in business was getting the sack from Talk Talk after a massive data leak. It didn't help that she couldn't answer whether the stolen data was encrypted or not.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Got any store cards
		
Click to expand...

See my post above . I'm not bothered about data but many are 


rudebhoy said:



			Bit like appointing the wife of a Tory MP with no medical or scientific experience to head up T&T. Her main claim to fame in business was getting the sack from Talk Talk after a massive data leak. It didn't help that she couldn't answer whether the stolen data was encrypted or not.
		
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Jobs for friends and family .. always the way. That's why the gov is so untrusted


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Bit like appointing the wife of a Tory MP with no medical or scientific experience to head up T&T. Her main claim to fame in business was getting the sack from Talk Talk after a massive data leak. It didn't help that she couldn't answer whether the stolen data was encrypted or not.
		
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How many CEO's have industry specific knowledge and experience?

And Baroness Harding is already chairing NHS Improvement in addition to having extensive experience in business.


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## rulefan (Jun 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			How many CEO's have industry specific knowledge and experience?

And Baroness Harding is already chairing NHS Improvement in addition to having extensive experience in business.
		
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I wonder how many on this forum or what proportion of the public have experience of running large organisations.


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## Old Skier (Jun 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I wonder how many on this forum or what proportion of the public have experience of running large organisations.
		
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The good Baroness isn’t one of them as can be seen from her Wilkie entry.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The good Baroness isn’t one of them as can be seen from her Wilkie entry.
		
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It's a grim read.

"In October 2015, TalkTalk experienced a 'significant and sustained cyber-attack', during which personal and banking details of up to four million customers were thought to have been accessed.[12] City A.M. described her responses as 'naive', noting that early on when asked if the affected customer data was encrypted or not, she replied: 'The awful truth is that I don't know'. Her 'inflexible line' on termination fees was also criticised.[13] Marketing ran a headline, 'TalkTalk boss Dido Harding's utter ignorance is a lesson to us all'."

"She was appointed chair of NHS Improvement, which is responsible for overseeing all NHS hospitals, comprising foundation trusts and NHS trusts, as well as independent providers of NHS-funded care.[18] Parliament's Health Select Committee, at that time chaired by former Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston, recommended that Dido resign as a Conservative peer and sit as a crossbench peer in order to 'allow for greater parliamentary and public confidence in her ability to challenge government ministers and policies if this role demands it'. Harding did not accept this.[19]"


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's a grim read.

"In October 2015, TalkTalk experienced a 'significant and sustained cyber-attack', during which personal and banking details of up to four million customers were thought to have been accessed.[12] City A.M. described her responses as 'naive', noting that early on when asked if the affected customer data was encrypted or not, she replied: 'The awful truth is that I don't know'. Her 'inflexible line' on termination fees was also criticised.[13] Marketing ran a headline, 'TalkTalk boss Dido Harding's utter ignorance is a lesson to us all'."

"She was appointed chair of NHS Improvement, which is responsible for overseeing all NHS hospitals, comprising foundation trusts and NHS trusts, as well as independent providers of NHS-funded care.[18] Parliament's Health Select Committee, at that time chaired by former Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston, recommended that Dido resign as a Conservative peer and sit as a crossbench peer in order to 'allow for greater parliamentary and public confidence in her ability to challenge government ministers and policies if this role demands it'. Harding did not accept this.[19]"
		
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Aside from  not being properly briefed by her staff at Talk Talk where is the grim reading?

And she resigned something politicians of all sides seem singularly incapable of doing.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's a grim read.

"In October 2015, TalkTalk experienced a 'significant and sustained cyber-attack', during which personal and banking details of up to four million customers were thought to have been accessed.[12] City A.M. described her responses as 'naive', noting that early on when asked if the affected customer data was encrypted or not, she replied: 'The awful truth is that I don't know'. Her 'inflexible line' on termination fees was also criticised.[13] Marketing ran a headline, 'TalkTalk boss Dido Harding's utter ignorance is a lesson to us all'."

"She was appointed chair of NHS Improvement, which is responsible for overseeing all NHS hospitals, comprising foundation trusts and NHS trusts, as well as independent providers of NHS-funded care.[18] Parliament's Health Select Committee, at that time chaired by former Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston, recommended that Dido resign as a Conservative peer and sit as a crossbench peer in order to 'allow for greater parliamentary and public confidence in her ability to challenge government ministers and policies if this role demands it'. Harding did not accept this.[19]"
		
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I think it's patently clear that competence and ability to do the job is pretty low down on the list of characteristics needed when it comes to government appointments. It's not from Game of Thrones??  Who knew.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2020)

I notice that there's nothing constructive being posted.

Such as who should have been appointed.

Perhaps someone from the Golf Monthly Forum. 🙄


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## rudebhoy (Jun 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Aside from  not being properly briefed by her staff at Talk Talk where is the grim reading?

And she resigned something politicians of all sides seem singularly incapable of doing.
		
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She resigned in Feb 2017, 18 months after the data hack, so not exactly a noble gesture. She also walked away with a £2m payoff.

The grim read comment was a reference to how she was perceived to have performed as CEO of Talk Talk.


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## drdel (Jun 20, 2020)

So what has the Baroness done wrong in her current position?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 20, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			She resigned in Feb 2017, 18 months after the data hack, so not exactly a noble gesture. She also walked away with a £2m payoff.

The grim read comment was a reference to how she was perceived to have performed as CEO of Talk Talk.
		
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So it is a grim read due to "how she was perceived to have performed " in one of a number of positions that she has held.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2020)

drdel said:



			So what has the Baroness done wrong in her current position?
		
Click to expand...

Probably:
1.  A Tory
2:  Breathing


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So it is a grim read due to "how she was perceived to have performed " in one of a number of positions that she has held.
		
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I did highlight the grim bits - being described as being utterly ignorant is not what you want on your CV, also refusing sound advice from a very influential Tory to become a cross bench peer to show her impartiality displays a lack of judgement.

As for what she has done wrong in her role in charge of T&T, persisting with an app for at least 6 weeks when it was clear to insiders it was doomed to failure is the obvious one, on top of that there have  been numerous reports of tracers sitting around watching Netflix because no work was sent to them, one woman said she had made a grand total of 2 phone calls over a number of weeks. The whole picture doesn't exactly breed confidence.

She appears to be consistently out her depth.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I did highlight the grim bits - being described as being utterly ignorant is not what you want on your CV, also refusing sound advice from a very influential Tory to become a cross bench peer to show her impartiality displays a lack of judgement.

As for what she has done wrong in her role in charge of T&T, persisting with an app for at least 6 weeks when it was clear to insiders it was doomed to failure is the obvious one, on top of that there have  been numerous reports of tracers sitting around watching Netflix because no work was sent to them, one woman said she had made a grand total of 2 phone calls over a number of weeks. The whole picture doesn't exactly breed confidence.

She appears to be consistently out her depth.
		
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I don't wish to be rude but it appears to me that you are the one out of your depth in trying to make a judgement that conforms to your overall anti-Government sentiments. 

Harding was appointed after the app had been designed and trials were commencing. 

It may well have been a case of it proving to be the  wrong app but no Chief Exec in the world could come in and decide that on day one. 

Indeed,  if they did make such a snap decision they would likely alienate the people they are relying upon to produce an effective T & T system. 

As for tracers having no calls to make that is surely down to the reduction in  infections.

If we are to criticise the Government for a shortage of PPE we cannot subsequently complain if surplus capacity is built in to T&T.

I will criticise and hold to account this Government for errors and shortcomings in dealing with the virus but I will not take it as an opportunity to "have go at 'em" just for the sake of it.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

I agree that surplus capacity is a good thing, and if all the reported contacts were getting traced and tested, that would be great. however there have been reports that the majority of reported contacts have not been contacted while we have an army of tracers sitting round twiddling their thumbs.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:





drdel said:



			So what has the Baroness done wrong in her current position?
		
Click to expand...

Probably:
1.  A Tory
2:  Breathing
		
Click to expand...

Ah, the dedicated Tory Boys are teaming up! Things MUST be dire!


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I agree that surplus capacity is a good thing, and if all the reported contacts were getting traced and tested, that would be great. however there have been reports that the majority of reported contacts have not been contacted while we have an army of tracers sitting round twiddling their thumbs.
		
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Also, the fact that her Tory MP husband is a member of a right wing think tank (1828) which wants to abolish the NHS and replace it with an American style insurance based system would seem to make her a less than ideal candidate for a leading NHS role.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Also, the fact that her Tory MP husband is a member of a right wing think tank (1828) which wants to abolish the NHS and replace it with an American style insurance based system would seem to make her a less than ideal candidate for a leading NHS role.
		
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I believe that the  1828 group are in favour of reform of healthcare  in the UK.

However, they are not suggesting that universal access to quality healthcare be removed and those without the resources would not  be denied .

Their suggestions are for  insurance based provision along the lines of the German and Dutch systems rather than the US model.

I do  not see the NHS as sacrosanct but I most certainly do regard universal access to first class healthcare as a basic requirement of society.

If the NHS proves to be the best for this then fine  but if there is a more effective alternative then surely that is a good thing.

A closed mind is unhealthy.

BTW why do you constantly feel the need to label individuals and groups as "right wing" as if all views alternative to your  own are extremist?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I believe that the  1828 group are in favour of reform of healthcare  in the UK.

However, they are not suggesting that universal access to quality healthcare be removed and those without the resources would not  be denied .

Their suggestions are for  insurance based provision along the lines of the German and Dutch systems rather than the US model.

I do  not see the NHS as sacrosanct but I most certainly do regard universal access to first class healthcare as a basic requirement of society.

If the NHS proves to be the best for this then fine  but if there is a more effective alternative then surely that is a good thing.

A closed mind is unhealthy.

BTW why do you constantly feel the need to label individuals and groups as "right wing" as if all views alternative to your  own are extremist?
		
Click to expand...


I don't see the term "right wing" as being extremist, I'm sure there are plenty Tories who are happy to be called right wing. I also don't see "left wing" as being extremist either, if you called me left wing, I wouldn't be upset. If you said "extreme left", or if I said "extreme right", that would be different.

As for 1828, I haven't read the detail of what they have proposed, only that they want to abolish the NHS and replace it with an insurance-based system. How does that work for those who can't afford insurance? If they get the same level of healthcare for free, how does it differ from the current system where those who can afford to do so, pay NI?


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## drdel (Jun 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ah, the dedicated Tory Boys are teaming up! Things MUST be dire!
		
Click to expand...

It must have taken great intellectual effort to invent that comment. 

You have no idea of my political leanings. 

Am I now allowed to respond to the immature phrase that you clearly wish to use in a derogatory manner and as an insult?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I don't see the term "right wing" as being extremist, I'm sure there are plenty Tories who are happy to be called right wing. I also don't see "left wing" as being extremist either, if you called me left wing, I wouldn't be upset. If you said "extreme left", or if I said "extreme right", that would be different.

As for 1828, I haven't read the detail of what they have proposed, only that they want to abolish the NHS and replace it with an insurance-based system. How does that work for those who can't afford insurance? If they get the same level of healthcare for free, how does it differ from the current system where those who can afford to do so, pay NI?
		
Click to expand...

It works in countries like Germany and the Netherlands. 

As far as I can see the service users (including those who can't afford the costs) are treated no differently to us in the UK. 

It is how the service is provided that differs with  less centralisation. 

I have benefited greatly from the NHS throughout my life which mirrors the existence of the Service. 

However, it doesn't mean that we should not consider alternatives if they can improve upon the present system. 

If they can't then, fine move on but we should never regard the NHS as beyond either reform or replacement.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			It works in countries like Germany and the Netherlands.

As far as I can see the service users (including those who can't afford the costs) are treated no differently to us in the UK.

It is how the service is provided that differs with  less centralisation.

I have benefited greatly from the NHS throughout my life which mirrors the existence of the Service.

However, it doesn't mean that we should not consider alternatives if they can improve upon the present system.

If they can't then, fine move on but we should never regard the NHS as beyond either reform or replacement.
		
Click to expand...


I'm not claiming the NHS is 100% perfect, it certainly isn't, but it by and large it provides a very good service. The constantly increasing life expectancy is a massive challenge, I'm sure I've read that more than half NHS users are OAPs. 

PFI deals are also screwing a lot of trusts. The charges are obscene. Blair and Brown should be ashamed of themselves for bringing PFI in.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			It must have taken great intellectual effort to invent that comment.

You have no idea of my political leanings.

Am I now allowed to respond to the immature phrase that you clearly wish to use in a derogatory manner and as an insult?
		
Click to expand...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I'm not claiming the NHS is 100% perfect, it certainly isn't, but it by and large it provides a very good service. The constantly increasing life expectancy is a massive challenge, I'm sure I've read that more than half NHS users are OAPs.

PFI deals are also screwing a lot of trusts. The charges are obscene. Blair and Brown should be ashamed of themselves for bringing PFI in.
		
Click to expand...

None of which I could disagree with. 

PFI could have worked but it was badly thought out and the terms were far too loaded in favour of the private sector providers.

What ever system is used for providing universal health care will be faced with the problems you outline.  An ageing population and constantly developing treatments are just two of them.

But to me that is a good reason for keeping the means of provision under review. 

However, I repeat universal access is, for me,  a non-negotiable.


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## Mudball (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Great idea, let's go for a solution that doesn't work for the phone with 49.24% market share in the UK. That will teach the sheep for buying overpriced phones!
		
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I dont think that is a new approach with the Tories.... Isnt Brexit also in a similar category...  
<mic drop and exit left w/ flame suit>   ... before i offend anyone, let me add the mandatory


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## SocketRocket (Jun 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

Your typical 'Silly Boy' responce.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I dont think that is a new approach with the Tories.... Isnt Brexit also in a similar category...  
<mic drop and exit left w/ flame suit>
		
Click to expand...

No.


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## Mudball (Jun 21, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Thanks for that, I hadn't heard of that before. My only concern would be whether it was possible to remove the wristband and leave it at home while I went out shopping. I'm not trying to denigrate the system, as at first look it seems better than anything we currently have in place, but just wondered how east it was to subvert the aims of it.
		
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yup.. no 100% solutions out there... perhaps only lockdowns, social engineering and shoot-at-sight orders..     I am waiting for Charles Trywitt to launch a mask that is colour coordinated with the shirt.  They could just convert all the ties to masks... jobs a gudden


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## Mudball (Jun 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No.
		
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fixed that...   it is not just the young who can be snowflakes (just saying )


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			...
PFI deals are also screwing a lot of trusts. The charges are obscene. Blair and Brown should be ashamed of themselves for bringing PFI in.
		
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FWIW, PFI originated in Major's term as PM.
But Brown (particularly/specifically) 'went to town' wih it.
In fact (well, my opinion!), many of the deals are relatively reasonable - even some of the massive ones like at Barts (building an entire hospital). While still an enormous amount, debt servicing by Barts, which may include other obligations) is less than 8% of it budget.
The obscene parts of PFI agreements are (or at least were) generally in the small print of 'general maintenance' where the cost of the likes of changing a lightbulb are massive!


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Your typical 'Silly Boy' responce.
		
Click to expand...


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I dont think that is a new approach with the Tories.... Isnt Brexit also in a similar category... 
<mic drop and exit left w/ flame suit>   ... before i offend anyone, let me add the mandatory 

Click to expand...

Made me chuckle! Thanks!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2020)

Hancock thinks we should now use the notebook and pencil strategy suggested by a drove of elderly experts on the IOW six weeks ago.
My goodness it really is getting like Handcock's half hour.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hancock thinks we should now use the notebook and pencil strategy suggested by a drove of elderly experts on the IOW six weeks ago.
My goodness it really is getting like Handcock's half hour.

Click to expand...

Can you tell us where he said that?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 21, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I don't see the term "right wing" as being extremist, I'm sure there are plenty Tories who are happy to be called right wing. I also don't see "left wing" as being extremist either, if you called me left wing, I wouldn't be upset. If you said "extreme left", or if I said "extreme right", that would be different.

As for 1828, I haven't read the detail of what they have proposed, only that they want to abolish the NHS and replace it with an insurance-based system. *How does that work for those who can't afford insurance? If they get the same level of healthcare for free, how does it differ from the current system where those who can afford to do so, pay NI?[*/QUOTE]
		
Click to expand...

Quite. We don't often agree( seems I'm one of your right wingers 😀), but the above in bold is a very good point.
As soon as I see insurance mentioned in terms of health care, I.e private as opposed to NHS, then I am very wary.
The whole point of insurance is that some are low risk ( low premiums) and those at high risk face high premiums.Basic law if insurance as I see it.
So in a private health insurance scheme, if you become *chronically *sick, you surely face crippling premiums, or maybe even insurance cover is withdrawn.

In another thread, some on here have examples about their pets insurance rise in premiums as their dogs get older. Exponential rises in premiums.
Don't accuse me , in deflection, of likening people with dogs , ( I prefer the latter, BTW😀)
but the same principles would be applied by insurance companies. I cannot see it any other way.
NHS is the only civilised system , IMO. Sure, it should be run better, but as system of health care for a nation, it cannot be bettered.
If you support the private health system , have a look at a speech made by JFK, about health care. (It's findable online). It may surprise you, considering he was an American.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			NHS is the only civilised system , IMO. Sure, it should be run better, but as system of health care for a nation, it cannot be bettered.
If you support the private health system , have a look at a speech made by JFK, about health care. (It's findable online). It may surprise you, considering he was an American.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but that's where we go wrong in this country. Assuming that the NHS is the only civilised system and cannot be bettered. 

I don't know whether it  is or not, in certain areas of treatment  it does seem to fall short of other countries. 

But until it and any alternatives are fully investigated we none of us know. 

The health provision in the other countries I previously mentioned could never be described  as private or  "devil take the hindmost", and I  would  never advocate the American system. 

But we should always keep searching if for no other reason than to ensure that whatever service we have it is best serving society.


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## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2020)

If people want a NHS that can provide for the needs of today’s demographics then we all must be prepared to pay more for it and the NHS must be prepared to come under more scrutiny and become more efficient.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Can you tell us where he said that?
		
Click to expand...

On the Marr show.
Marr absent due to his fathers death so it was hosted by that awful Robinson guy, the one who told all those lies in 2014.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hancock thinks we should now use the notebook and pencil strategy suggested by a drove of elderly experts on the IOW six weeks ago.
My goodness it really is getting like Handcock's half hour.

Click to expand...

Really? They tested something new, quite rightly, and found that it didn't work as hoped, so are moving onto plan b. Surely thats the whole point of testing something?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On the Marr show.
Marr absent due to his fathers death so it was hosted by that awful Robinson guy, the one who told all those lies in 2014.
		
Click to expand...

And you are certain that is what he said?


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Really? They tested something new, quite rightly, and found that it didn't work as hoped, so are moving onto plan b. Surely thats the whole point of testing something?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, there are obvious deficiencies of pencil and paper 'tracking' in mainland UK, even if perhaps (and I doubt it!) everyone on IOW can remember who they 'came into contact with' on any day. It's not simply a case of 'let's use technology' ao much as 'it can only be done with technology' - even if that's only going to be 90% (or whatever) reliable.
And while Android phones are pretty 'open', Apple's innards are, quite deliberately and reasonably, very secure. The proper way to handle that issue was o get Apple to co-operate on the development - with Apple providing an interface that provides the info, but retains the security/privacy that Iphone users expect - which is often why they spent the extra money to purchase an Iphone!


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## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Quite. We don't often agree( seems I'm one of your right wingers 😀), but the above in bold is a very good point.
As soon as I see insurance mentioned in terms of health care, I.e private as opposed to NHS, then I am very wary.
The whole point of insurance is that some are low risk ( low premiums) and those at high risk face high premiums.Basic law if insurance as I see it.
So in a private health insurance scheme, if you become *chronically *sick, you surely face crippling premiums, or maybe even insurance cover is withdrawn.

In another thread, some on here have examples about their pets insurance rise in premiums as their dogs get older. Exponential rises in premiums.
Don't accuse me , in deflection, of likening people with dogs , ( I prefer the latter, BTW😀)
but the same principles would be applied by insurance companies. I cannot see it any other way.
NHS is the only civilised system , IMO. Sure, it should be run better, but as system of health care for a nation, it cannot be bettered.
If you support the private health system , have a look at a speech made by JFK, about health care. (It's findable online). It may surprise you, considering he was an American.
		
Click to expand...

I've not kept up to date with where the UK is in terms of healthcare provision. A few years back the UK was in 14th place in Europe, and Spain was in 5th place in the world. In neither case do the citizens pay for healthcare. Can the NHS system be bettered outside the UK? It already is, and by some tune around the world. The vast majority of countries around the world have Universal Healthcare. Canada, Mexico and 95% of South America has it. All of Europe and 2/3 of Asia has it. Africa, unfortunately doesn't have it in the version most of the world has. If you lift the Britannia Blinkers you might be very surprised.

The money paid to the NHS has, for many years, not kept up with medical advances. Think about it. An MRI suite might cost hundreds of thousands of pounds per hospital. Add to that new medicines and other new treatments. Has the NHS budget kept up with that? Nowhere near. What was the best in the world, not 50 years ago, no longer is.


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## rulefan (Jun 21, 2020)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...espendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29

See in particular

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...-spent-on-healthcare-governance-and-financing


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry but that's where we go wrong in this country. Assuming that the NHS is the only civilised system and cannot be bettered.

I don't know whether it  is or not, in certain areas of treatment  it does seem to fall short of other countries.

But until it and any alternatives are fully investigated we none of us know.

The health provision in the other countries I previously mentioned could never be described  as private or  "devil take the hindmost", and I  would  never advocate the American system.

But we should always keep searching if for no other reason than to ensure that whatever service we have it is best serving society.
		
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Just for clarity, MM😀. I didn't say it couldn't be better run, I said the system couldn't be bettered.i.e. All pay in (unless you genuinely are not able to), and free at point of contact.
It certainly could be better run. Less chiefs and better valued and remunerated Indians .


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Just for clarity, MM😀. I didn't say it couldn't be better run, I said the system couldn't be bettered.i.e. All pay in (unless you genuinely are not able to), and free at point of contact.
It certainly could be better run. Less chiefs and better valued and remunerated Indians .
		
Click to expand...

But from Hobbit's post #4408 it would appear that it can possibly be bettered (and I believe he had some experience of health provision).

The last thing we, as a society, can afford to do is be complacent about our health services. 

It may be that the NHS  requires some changes, it certainly needs more funding. 

But it may be that there is a better way of providing universal healthcare. 

My point is that we don't yet know


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## SocketRocket (Jun 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			fixed that...   it is not just the young who can be snowflakes (just saying )
		
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You asked the question, didnt you want that answer.
Regarding the sarcastic bit: diissapointing and probably better not to get dragged in.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But from Hobbit's post #4408 it would appear that it can possibly be bettered (and I believe he had some experience of health provision).

The last thing we, as a society, can afford to do is be complacent about our health services.

It may be that the NHS  requires some changes, it certainly needs more funding.

But it may be that there is a better way of providing universal healthcare.

*My point is that we don't yet know*

Click to expand...

Well, Hobbit seems to know😀. Perhaps he could explain how Universal health care system works in all these countries. Genuine question, how does it work?
How, particularly, for chronically ill people?


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## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, Hobbit seems to know😀. Perhaps he could explain how Universal health care system works in all these countries. Genuine question, how does it work?
How, particularly, for chronically ill people?
		
Click to expand...

You want me to explain healthcare provision in every country in the world? Really? Are you looking to split hairs to try and justify your previous post that the UK's can't be bettered? I have personal experience of healthcare provision living in Germany, France, Sweden, The Netherlands, Spain and the UK. And I worked in the industry for 30 years.

And you want me to break down by illness?  Get real.

By all means feel free to do your own research. I can't be ar5ed getting into a willy waving competition on healthcare systems but I'm very happy with my stance that the UK's system isn't the best in the world.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2020)

I had no feel for the cost of private healthcare until we looked for some for my wife for when we went travelling.  

We were both covered through my works scheme but that was to be stopped when i took the sabbatical to travel. With her existing condition (in remission with Breast Cancer) the insurer we are covered through my work scheme said they would take her on with that existing condition on a monthly premium of £550.  That could be reduced a bit if we choose a multiple £000s excess.  

I must admit to being shocked at that figure.  I had no idea.


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## User62651 (Jun 22, 2020)

So Hancock/Public Health England will need to face a 1st court case over the deaths in care homes fiasco. The Dr lady bringing the case wrt her deceased father was just on sky news and seems pretty switched on. The outcome of this case could be massive for Govt if the High Court finds in her favour. Alleged negligence causing 1000s of care home deaths if proven in court would be extremely serious for Govt. So far they continue to deny deny deny. Could just as easily apply to devolved govts too.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...ns-legal-action-against-matt-hancock-12012227


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You want me to explain healthcare provision in every country in the world? Really? Are you looking to split hairs to try and justify your previous post that the UK's can't be bettered? I have personal experience of healthcare provision living in Germany, France, Sweden, The Netherlands, Spain and the UK. And I worked in the industry for 30 years.

And you want me to break down by illness?  Get real.

By all means feel free to do your own research. I can't be ar5ed getting into a willy waving competition on healthcare systems but I'm very happy with my stance that the UK's system isn't the best in the world.
		
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Hang on, I'm not being funny or sarcastic etc here. I saw your post saying that a lot of countries used " Universal Healthcare".  They were your capital letters, which led me to think you were referring to a particular system  with a particular style of funding etc, in the same way that the term "NHS "in England defines a particular system of funding and administration .
It now seems that each of the countries you referred to has their own methods, and if so then of course I don't expect you to example them all. I'll do my own research. But a couple of examples , of which you clearly have intimate knowledge, would help towards the discussion.
For clarity, I'm not saying the NHS provides the best health available, but it does provide health care for all, even if you become poor or destitute.
Do the others, and how?, briefly.
If the others are not similarly funded , are they insurance funded etc?
That's what I was asking, is all?
There was no animosity in my post towards anyone.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hang on, I'm not being funny or sarcastic etc here. I saw your post saying that a lot of countries used " Universal Healthcare".  They were your capital letters, which led me to think you were referring to a particular system  with a particular style of funding etc, in the same way that the term "NHS "in England defines a particular system of funding and administration .
It now seems that each of the countries you referred to has their own methods, and if so then of course I don't expect you to example them all. I'll do my own research. But a couple of examples , of which you clearly have intimate knowledge, would help towards the discussion.
For clarity, I'm not saying the NHS provides the best health available, but it does provide health care for all, even if you become poor or destitute.
Do the others, and how?, briefly.
If the others are not similarly funded , are they insurance funded etc?
That's what I was asking, is all?
There was no animosity in my post towards anyone.
		
Click to expand...

In Germany there is compulsory insurance paid by both employer and employee, very similar to our NI contributions. 

Premiums are earnings related rather than risk based.

Access to the service is available to all so unemployed or those with critical conditions are not excluded.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 22, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			So Hancock/Public Health England will need to face a 1st court case over the deaths in care homes fiasco. The Dr lady bringing the case wrt her deceased father was just on sky news and seems pretty switched on. The outcome of this case could be massive for Govt if the High Court finds in her favour. Alleged negligence causing 1000s of care home deaths if proven in court would be extremely serious for Govt. So far they continue to deny deny deny. Could just as easily apply to devolved govts too.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...ns-legal-action-against-matt-hancock-12012227

Click to expand...

This is where they will try and blame the advisors.
Following the science etc.
It was an extraordinarily pressured time .
Mistakes were made and will no dought be brought to the fore. Rightly so.
But imo a lawsuit solves nothing.
Unless you lost the main breadwinner and it’s hurting financially.
It’s not bringing anybody back.
The courts are the last place for an argument like this imho.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is where they will try and blame the advisors.
Following the science etc.
It was an extraordinarily pressured time .
Mistakes were made and will no dought be brought to the fore. Rightly so.
But imo a lawsuit solves nothing.
Unless you lost the main breadwinner and it’s hurting financially.
It’s not bringing anybody back.
The courts are the last place for an argument like this imho.
		
Click to expand...

Or the only place she believes she can “legally” get the truth.

Just writing to her local mp or Government minister may not be enough as she could possibly receive polite responses which don’t answer her questions.

From reading the reports and listening to her, she certainly didn’t come across as doing it for monetary gain.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Or the only place she believes she can “legally” get the truth.

Just writing to her local mp or Government minister may not be enough as she could possibly receive polite responses which don’t answer her questions.

From reading the reports and listening to her, she certainly didn’t come across as doing it for monetary gain.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I agree with that.
That is down to the government though to be transparent and not try to cover things up.
If they do that a lawsuit would be unnecessary.
But I can’t see them doing that so the lawyers will make a few bob again.


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## drdel (Jun 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is where they will try and blame the advisors.
Following the science etc.
It was an extraordinarily pressured time .
Mistakes were made and will no dought be brought to the fore. Rightly so.
But imo a lawsuit solves nothing.
Unless you lost the main breadwinner and it’s hurting financially.
It’s not bringing anybody back.
The courts are the last place for an argument like this imho.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. 

Surely it would be the care home owners who, if there was a negligence claim, would be in the firing line.

Goverment issued guidance IMO it would have to start at the point of implementation: espacially if it was a Private business.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			I agree.

Surely it would be the care home owners who, if there was a negligence claim, would be in the firing line.

Goverment issued guidance IMO it would have to start at the point of implementation: espacially if it was a Private business.
		
Click to expand...

Yes possibly between the NHS and the care homes transfers.
Very messy.
the care homes could have said “NO” or could they?
That’s why I think courts are not the best places for these complicated arguments.
We need a little honesty here, if you made a mistake put your hand up and say your” sorry”
But they ( decision makers ) Rarely do these days .


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes possibly between the NHS and the care homes transfers.
Very messy.
the care homes could have said “NO” or could they?
That’s why I think courts are not the best places for these complicated arguments.
We need a little honesty here, if you made a mistake put your hand up and say your” sorry”
But they ( decision makers ) Rarely do these days .
		
Click to expand...

Without being accussed of being rude etc, I’m not sure some on here actually read the link maxfli provided, she’s already been blanked when asking for information and has now gone down the litigation route.

Maybe if politicians (from all parties) were made more aware of their actions or words in public, they would not end up in these situations or adversely, good on her if it changes the way they behave in the future.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Quite. We don't often agree( seems I'm one of your right wingers 😀), but the above in bold is a very good point.
As soon as I see insurance mentioned in terms of health care, I.e private as opposed to NHS, then I am very wary.
The whole point of insurance is that some are low risk ( low premiums) and those at high risk face high premiums.Basic law if insurance as I see it.
So in a private health insurance scheme, if you become *chronically *sick, you surely face crippling premiums, or maybe even insurance cover is withdrawn.

In another thread, some on here have examples about their pets insurance rise in premiums as their dogs get older. Exponential rises in premiums.
Don't accuse me , in deflection, of likening people with dogs , ( I prefer the latter, BTW😀)
but the same principles would be applied by insurance companies. I cannot see it any other way.
NHS is the only civilised system , IMO. Sure, it should be run better, but as system of health care for a nation, it cannot be bettered.
If you support the private health system , have a look at a speech made by JFK, about health care. (It's findable online). It may surprise you, considering he was an American.
		
Click to expand...

The NHS is an insurance system, it may be free at the point of delivery but it's not free. The countries that use part state and part insurance (compulsary) the insurance is normally not for profit and that portion is payed by the state where people cannot afford it.  If we were to look at such a system in tne UK there would be the cries of 'Privatising the NHS'  even if it turned out to be a better system. Many European countries along with Australia, New Zeland seem to successfully run their health services this way.


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## patricks148 (Jun 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The NHS is an insurance system, it may be free at the point of delivery but it's not free. The countries that use part state and part insurance (compulsary) the insurance is normally not for profit and that portion is payed by the state where people cannot afford it.  If we were to look at such a system in tne UK there would be the cries of 'Privatising the NHS'  even if it turned out to be a better system. Many European countries along with Australia, New Zeland seem to successfully run their health services this way.
		
Click to expand...

but don't these countries you mention have sig smaller populations than the UK and far less Poverty?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but don't these countries you mention have sig smaller populations than the UK and far less Poverty?
		
Click to expand...

Germany, France, Spain etc aren't so different in population but what's that to do with it, less people pay in less, more people pay in more, bigger insurance outfits tend to be the ones that are more secure.

Regarding poverty in these countries, I've not looked deeply into that but some of the eastern European countries seem to have quite good health services but I doubt if they have lower poverty levels. Does the UK rate badly against these countries, I've seen some pretty poor people in France and some areas of Spain and Italy. The UK  looks to be around average in Europe at around 17%


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but don't these countries you mention have sig smaller populations than the UK and far less Poverty?
		
Click to expand...

Certainly NZ and Aus have a 'less extreme' range of wealth/income - i.e. Neither so many 'super wealthy, nor 'breadline' folk, save perhaps those Aborigines (and a small number of Maoris) who choose to continue their 'subsistence culture'. That means government can 'pitch' the equivalent of NI at a level that nobody really begrudges and Private Insurance isn't such a queue-jumping tool. 
In NZ, wher I come from, so know most about....A visits to a Doctor costs (amount set by Practice) as do some prescriptions, though both are free for children (under 14) and approved ones are heavily subsidised. This tends to stop 'bludgers' and those who treat a visit to a Doctor as a social visit!
And Yes, their populations ARE smaller (NZ 5M and Aus 25M). But that has both benefits (more open spaces generally means healthier life) and disadvantages (capital expenditure is disproportianately higher). Both also have serious issues with skin cancer!
Overall management/co-ordination is by about 20 regional Boards (with all but 1 - DoH appointed - member publicly elected). There's a 'cost efficiency' organisation and some boards have set up joint companies to share/minimise administration costs. It's the Management/Admin setup that is most different from here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Certainly NZ and Aus have a 'less extreme' range of wealth/income - i.e. Neither so many 'super wealthy, nor 'breadline' folk, save perhaps those Aborigines (and a small number of Maoris) who choose to continue their 'subsistence culture'. That means government can 'pitch' the equivalent of NI at a level that nobody really begrudges and Private Insurance isn't such a queue-jumping tool.
In NZ, wher I come from, so know most about....A visits to a Doctor costs (amount set by Practice) as do some prescriptions, though both are free for children (under 14) and approved ones are heavily subsidised. This tends to stop 'bludgers' and those who treat a visit to a Doctor as a social visit!
And Yes, their populations ARE smaller (NZ 5M and Aus 25M). But that has both benefits (more open spaces generally means healthier life) and disadvantages (capital expenditure is disproportianately higher).* Both also have serious issues with skin cancer!*
Overall management/co-ordination is by about 20 regional Boards (with all but 1 - DoH appointed - member publicly elected). There's a 'cost efficiency' organisation and some boards have set up joint companies to share/minimise administration costs. It's the Management/Admin setup that is most different from here.
		
Click to expand...

...and in Australia the vinegar bottles by the beaches of Queensland isn't there to be used on your fish and chips...


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## Mudball (Jun 22, 2020)

Any watched The Trump's speech in Oklahoma where he blames Testing for the rise in cases... so he has asked them to go slow on testing..    Pure genius i say.   

Close home, it looks like GP and some healthcare workers who got infected and tested positive for Covid-19 are now being denied health insurance!!   As they have not got any help from the Govt, the BMA is now informally asking GPs not to go for testing till this is sorted... pure genius.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Without being accussed of being rude etc, I’m not sure some on here actually read the link maxfli provided, she’s already been blanked when asking for information and has now gone down the litigation route.

Maybe if politicians (from all parties) were made more aware of their actions or words in public, they would not end up in these situations or adversely, good on her if it changes the way they behave in the future.
		
Click to expand...

The politicians gave advice according to the article.
You accept advice or you don’t.
They will have covered their backs. 
I just think the courts are the wrong place for this .
A public enquiry would be the best route imo.
But that would have to come from the politicians.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			The politicians gave advice according to the article.
You accept advice or you don’t.
They will have covered their backs.
I just think the courts are the wrong place for this .
A public enquiry would be the best route imo.
But that would have to come from the politicians.
		
Click to expand...

I think their will be a Public Enquiry sometime in the future and totally agree we should wait for that, but unfortunately by blanking this women she believes she has no choice but to take her particular issue a step further. 

I won’t judge her for that as I’ve not suffered the loss she has.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I think their will be a Public Enquiry sometime in the future and totally agree we should wait for that, but unfortunately by blanking this women she believes she has no choice but to take her particular issue a step further.

I won’t judge her for that as I’ve not suffered the loss she has.
		
Click to expand...

Yes agree . Not judging her at all.
But for her own sake the courts are not a nice place to be.
It can consume your whole life for years.
But as you say it’s her choice. And her right.!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2020)

July 4th Independence day...…….really.
Are the Tories bypassing the Mail/Express readers and now appealing to the Sun readers.


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## Crazyface (Jun 23, 2020)

It's not our Independence Day.

Anyhoo, the ONE thing I'm taking from all this Covid stuff, is that we are no longer a united UK. Each country is doing things completely different to each other so it's about time we cut all ties from each other and had done with the stupid UK crpa anyway.


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			...
The courts are the last place for an argument like this imho.
		
Click to expand...

What other place(s) is(are) available?
In many ways, that's exactly what courts are for - however 'pointless' 'getting a result' might be!
I don't believe there is general partisan political motivation involved. But that's also for the court arguments to reveal.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			What other place(s) is(are) available?
In many ways, that's exactly what courts are for - however 'pointless' 'getting a result' might be!
I don't believe there is general partisan political motivation involved. But that's also for the court arguments to reveal.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t  think spending your life savings And years of your life,  on a court case Just to get a possible apology Is the best course of action.
If that is what she wants to do fine, it’s her right.
But it won’t bring her dad back ,and imo will do her more harm than good.
But that’s just me.


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## Kellfire (Jun 24, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/508955689/posts/10158244423890690






__ https://www.facebook.com/508955689/posts/10158259233925690



Tories gonna Tory.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 24, 2020)

Wee Krankie in Scotland continues to take whatever opposite approach she can to the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Wee Krankie in Scotland continues to take whatever opposite approach she can to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Three of the four components of the UK do not support the actions of Johnson.
England is the one that is 'taking the opposite action to the UK' and not supporting the majority.
Good luck to them I fully support their right to act independently of the other three but I do get annoyed when Johnson continually calls his actions as 'British' when they clearly are an 'England only' matter. He should be honest rather than make a poor attempt to bend history.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Three of the four components of the UK do not support the actions of Johnson.
England is the one that is 'taking the opposite action to the UK' and not supporting the majority.
Good luck to them I fully support their right to act independently of the other three but I do get annoyed when Johnson continually calls his actions as 'British' when they clearly are an 'England only' matter. He should be honest rather than make a poor attempt to bend history.
		
Click to expand...

As over 80% of the UK population lives in England and is, therefore,  affected by these changes it would seem that he is being honest.

After all we know that the devolved powers will soon follow suit once the posturing has finished.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Wee Krankie in Scotland continues to take whatever opposite approach she can to the UK.
		
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Or whatever Nicola Sturgeon thinks is best for Scotland. Shame on her for not slavishly following the excellent example on how to deal with this crisis set by Boris. Still, you got the 'Jimmy Krankie' line in so fair play, it was worth posting just for that as we haven't seen that for a few weeks.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 24, 2020)

I think the actual phrase is "whatever Nicola Sturgeon thinks is best for her".


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2020)

Has anyone noticed that London has greater population than Scotland?


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## Mudball (Jun 24, 2020)

Kellfire said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/508955689/posts/10158244423890690






__ https://www.facebook.com/508955689/posts/10158259233925690



Tories gonna Tory.
		
Click to expand...

Fake media...  remember Labour has done all of these and more... so lets focus on the bigger issues..  Pubs open in a couple of weeks and we have taken Dom Com off the front pages.. result..


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## Mudball (Jun 24, 2020)

Strange is our world... those who helped save us, got Covid in the process are no longer getting the insurance they usually get.    I am sure nothing to do with the Govt, but.. 

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/covid-19/your-health/covid-19-your-life-insurance


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Strange is our world... those who helped save us, got Covid in the process are no longer getting the insurance they usually get.    I am sure nothing to do with the Govt, but..

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/covid-19/your-health/covid-19-your-life-insurance

Click to expand...

Where does it say they aren't getting the cover they require?

Applications are being deferred rather than refused from those who are still suffering from the virus but surely that is to be expected.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has anyone noticed that London has greater population than Scotland?
		
Click to expand...

Has anyone noticed that London or England is not the UK.


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## huds1475 (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Where does it say they aren't getting the cover they require?

Applications are being deferred rather than refused from those who are still suffering from the virus but surely that is to be expected.
		
Click to expand...

Come on.

Being sensible doesn't suit any narrative. Useless behaviour!


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## DRW (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Has anyone noticed that London or England is not the UK.

Click to expand...

Has anyone noticed that you don't want Scotland to be part of the UK


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## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2020)

DRW said:



			Has anyone noticed that you don't want Scotland to be part of the UK 

Click to expand...

Does anyone think Scotland would have come out of lockdown earlier had they been independent? A colleague posed the question earlier this morning, his thought was they would have done for financial reasons.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			As over 80% of the UK population lives in England and is, therefore,  affected by these changes it would seem that he is being honest.

After all we know that the devolved powers will soon follow suit once the posturing has finished.
		
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Posturing, what a strange word to use.
I think the devolved nations will 'get back to normal' whenever their politicians consider it is safe to do so.
They were better informed at the start of CV, and England was slow to 'follow suit'.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Posturing, what a strange word to use.
I think the devolved nations will 'get back to normal' whenever their politicians consider it is safe to do so.
They were better informed at the start of CV, and England was slow to 'follow suit'.
		
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Your last paragraph has already been proved to be wrong and yes I do see both the First Minister of Scotland and her counterpart in Wales to have been guilty of posturing for political effect throughout the crisis.


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## DRW (Jun 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Does anyone think Scotland would have come out of lockdown earlier had they been independent? A colleague posed the question earlier this morning, his thought was they would have done for financial reasons.
		
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Its interesting question and who knows the answer. I could see it go either way, for sure if Scotland had been independent, financial, media and business pressures would have been far greater to unlock earlier. Business is hurting, late treatment of people in hospitals is hurting(just think of cancer detection/treatment delays, will lead to deaths, which would have been saved with early treatment), jobs are being lost and so on. Furloughing and self employed grants are going to end. The knock on effect is only just starting to be felt. UK locked down far to late, including Scotland and Wales and were far to easy on people returning from abroad at that time. And unlocking to late will lead to issues.

The other aspect I dislike about Wales/Scotland stance is the 5 mile radius.... its far to much 'little Britain/England' outlook for my liking. I feel uncomfortable with the keep the population locked down to an area, just in case of transmission(when numbers are fairly low), bit to much state controlling for me and breeds the wrong kind of outlook in some minds(which should live in the past imho).

Don't get me wrong if an area has an out break, then lock that area and quickly, to try to stop transmission out of that area and enforce it hard etc. A slightly different reason/direction of control, if you can see my point.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I don’t  think spending your life savings And years of your life,  on a court case Just to get a possible apology Is the best course of action.
If that is what she wants to do fine, it’s her right.
But it won’t bring her dad back ,and imo will do her more harm than good.
But that’s just me.
		
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I don't disagree with you. But as you state, it's her right to do so - and if the reason for doing so is to seek 'closure'/hold the 'wrongdoers' to account, it's probably her only option.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2020)

DRW said:



			Has anyone noticed that you don't want Scotland to be part of the UK 

Click to expand...

Yes


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## pendodave (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They were better informed at the start of CV, and England was slow to 'follow suit'.
		
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It's a long time since the start of all this, but this seems like a bit of a stretch tbh.
How did this better informedness manifest itself? 
Quarantines of arrivals?
Better management of PPE?
Better protection of care homes?
You could be right, but it doesn't chime with my elderley recollection of events. Though maybe pubs shut a couple of days earlier?


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## huds1475 (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They were better informed at the start of CV, and England was slow to 'follow suit'.
		
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That's comedy gold. Though happy to be proved wrong with facts.

BTW, I'm not suggesting 'England was better than Scotland' either.

There were big plays early on (from both sides) about all working together. Fragmentation started with relaxing (or not) of restrictions.


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## pendodave (Jun 24, 2020)

Moving away from interfamilial disputes...
I'm assuming that a decent and speedy testing process will need to be in place to support the return to a civilised existence. 
Having just been tested myself (part of the random screening program), I'm not entirely sure that the current one is fit for purpose.
Despite having a number of GP surgeries and a 'cottage hospital' within walking distance, the test was mailed to me (2 day delay). The registration process was a pita, assembling the kit was a pita. Self administration to tonsils/back of nose is easy to b*****r up. Delay of another day for courier pickup. Still waiting for results 3 days later after pickup.....
There really needs to be local walk-in clinics (including large workplaces) with trained staff and sub 24hr turnaround on results, otherwise, whats the point?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2020)

Answers to the question 'would a Scottish government of an independent Scotland have dealt with the pandemic differently' are based upon a premis that says that the starting point for that Scottish government would have been the same as it actually was.  And actually as much as it might have been - it also might not have been - regardless of what the existing devolved powers enable the Scottish government to do.  

As much as an independent Scotland might be a much poorer country than it is today - it might also have been a much wealthier one - one more able to put in place the potentially costly mitigations required to reduce the impact of a pandemic.

I don't think the decision making of a Scottish government of an Indy Scotland can be looked at in isolation and assuming the exact same initial conditions as existed in January 2020.  

In fact an Independent Scotland might today be in a very much worse situation in respect of it's coping with the pandemic.  However it might also have been a full member of the EU and so getting it's full support - and then being in the single market in a better position to get it's economy going again post-pandemic.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Answers to the question 'would a Scottish government of an independent Scotland have dealt with the pandemic differently' are based upon a premis that says that the starting point for that Scottish government would have been the same as it actually was.  And actually as much as it might have been - it also might not have been - regardless of what the existing devolved powers enable the Scottish government to do. 

As much as an independent Scotland might be a much poorer country than it is today - it might also have been a much wealthier one - one more able to put in place the potentially costly mitigations required to reduce the impact of a pandemic.

I don't think the decision making of a Scottish government of an Indy Scotland can be looked at in isolation and assuming the exact same initial conditions as existed in January 2020. 

*In fact an Independent Scotland might today be in a very much worse situation in respect of it's coping with the pandemic.  However it might also have been a full member of the EU and so getting it's full support - and then being in the single market in a better position to get it's economy going again post-pandemic*.
		
Click to expand...

ah. The magical EU that fully supported the big outbreaks in Spain and Italy as the countries flared up first - you have to remind us how well this worked?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2020)

I think an Independent Scotland would have closely followed Irish formula.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think an Independent Scotland would have closely followed Irish formula.
		
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It has been following its own formula throughout. Why did it not follow Ireland from the beginning?


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Has anyone noticed that London or England is not the UK.

Click to expand...

Nor is Scotland.


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2020)

The actions taken (or not taken) by the devolved authorities is one thing. That the major financial cost of the support to these devolved bodies is backed by the whole UK is another.
If staff in Scotland are unable to return to work at the same time as in England, the furlough cost is paid by all of us.


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## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The actions taken (or not taken) by the devolved authorities is one thing. That the major financial cost of the support to these devolved bodies is backed by the whole UK is another.
If staff in Scotland are unable to return to work at the same time as in England, the furlough cost is paid by all of us.
		
Click to expand...

That was sort of my colleagues point, but as I know very little of the financial partnership between the  UK countries I couldn't really comment on it.


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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			That was sort of my colleagues point, but as I know very little of the financial partnership between the  UK countries I couldn't really comment on it.
		
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Agree, not an area that I am familiar with as well. Like the request today for the Scottish parliament to have increased borrowing powers. If agreed, is that debt serviced by the UK as a whole or funded by Scottish resources.


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agree, not an area that I am familiar with as well. Like the request today for the Scottish parliament to have increased borrowing powers. If agreed, is that debt serviced by the UK as a whole or funded by Scottish resources.
		
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They can borrow extra capital up to £450M I think from the UK Government but service it through their own resources unless the UK increases the capital block grant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			ah. The magical EU that fully supported the big outbreaks in Spain and Italy as the countries flared up first - you have to remind us how well this worked?
		
Click to expand...

...at least your 'magical' EU would have been able to offer an independent Scotland tariff free access across all EU countries for it goods and services as Scotland would have been struggling to get back on it's feet.

Meanwhile a good old independent England (plus Wales and a confused NI) would have been striking deals to sell such as Penguin biscuits to such as Australia...apparently - whilst most probably faced with tariffs on goods and services to and from Scotland and the rest of the EU.  Excellent.  Just what we voted for.


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## Mudball (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Where does it say they aren't getting the cover they require?

Applications are being deferred rather than refused from those who are still suffering from the virus but surely that is to be expected.
		
Click to expand...

It is a well crafted formal line hence it is written that way...  on the frontline, GPs without insurance cannot work irrespective of it being absent or deferred.   The insurance cos are either not renewing or jacking up premium.   The BMA's response was therefore wide ranging.  At some point, i hope they name and shame the insurance cos ...  Talk to your GP for more clarificiations


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## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...at least your 'magical' EU would have been able to offer an independent Scotland tariff free access across all EU countries for it goods and services as Scotland would have been struggling to get back on it's feet.

Meanwhile a good old independent England (plus Wales and a confused NI) would have been striking deals to sell such as Penguin biscuits to such as Australia...apparently - whilst most probably faced with tariffs on goods and services to and from Scotland and the rest of the EU.  Excellent.  Just what we voted for.
		
Click to expand...

I thought tariff free access still exists.... is it Jan 1st already? Wow, what a year 2020 was...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I thought tariff free access still exists.... is it Jan 1st already? Wow, what a year 2020 was...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - but the pandemic ain't over yet - with the virus likely to remain prevalent in the community until Spring 2021 according to Sir Patrick - and by then we'll be well and truly out of the transition period with that easiest of all free trade deals (see Dr L Fox) firmly in place.

But Scotland isn't independent - and so conjectures on how well or no an indy Scotland might have coped going into this pandemic are as irrelevant as conjectures on how an indy Scot would fare coming out of it.


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## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - but the pandemic ain't over yet - with the virus likely to remain prevalent in the community until Spring 2021 according to Sir Patrick - and by then we'll be well and truly out of the transition period with that easiest of all free trade deals (see Dr L Fox) firmly in place.

But Scotland isn't independent - and so conjectures on how well or no an indy Scotland might have coped going into this pandemic are as irrelevant as conjectures on how an indy Scot would fare coming out of it.
		
Click to expand...

BTW, the IMF, which as you know isn't a UK/Tory mouthpiece, has just announced that Spain and Italy will fair worse than the UK as they struggle to recover... just saying, for a friend. Care to spin that one too?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

Mudball said:



			It is a well crafted formal line hence it is written that way...  on the frontline, GPs without insurance cannot work irrespective of it being absent or deferred.   The insurance cos are either not renewing or jacking up premium.   The BMA's response was therefore wide ranging.  At some point, i hope they name and shame the insurance cos ...  Talk to your GP for more clarificiations
		
Click to expand...

BS.
Life assurance premiums do not increase  as with very few exceptions they are not annually renewable contracts. The premium is, therefore,  set at outset. 

So again I ask what policies are doctors being denied?

If anyone of us applies for a new policy and we are either suffering from a disease such as coronavirus or still affected by it life assurance companies will either defer a decision or may offer cover at an increased premium.

But I repeat this would be for only new applications and there would be no effect upon existing policies.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...at least your 'magical' EU would have been able to offer an independent Scotland tariff free access across all EU countries for it goods and services as Scotland would have been struggling to get back on it's feet.

Meanwhile a good old independent England (plus Wales and a confused NI) would have been striking deals to sell such as Penguin biscuits to such as Australia...apparently - whilst most probably faced with tariffs on goods and services to and from Scotland and the rest of the EU.  Excellent.  Just what we voted for.
		
Click to expand...

But Scotland's trade with the rest of the UK is four times their trade with the EU. An independent Scotland would have been facing tariffs on all of those goods they were wanting to sell to rUK.


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## Mudball (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			BS.
Life assurance premiums do not increase  as with very few exceptions they are not annually renewable contracts. The premium is, therefore,  set at outset.

So again I ask what policies are doctors being denied?

If anyone of us applies for a new policy and we are either suffering from a disease such as coronavirus or still affected by it life assurance companies will either defer a decision or may offer cover at an increased premium.

But I repeat this would be for only new applications and there would be no effect upon existing policies.
		
Click to expand...

These are renewals...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

Mudball said:



			These are renewals...
		
Click to expand...

As I said life assurance does NOT renew.

You really should check facts before posting inflammatory nonsense. 

Just read the link you posted.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The actions taken (or not taken) by the devolved authorities is one thing. That the major financial cost of the support to these devolved bodies is backed by the whole UK is another.
If staff in Scotland are unable to return to work at the same time as in England, the furlough cost is paid by all of us.
		
Click to expand...

Not true.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It has been following its own formula throughout. Why did it not follow Ireland from the beginning?
		
Click to expand...

In the early stages it did.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the early stages it did.
		
Click to expand...

In what way?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the early stages it did.
		
Click to expand...

So why didn't it continue to do so? I don't understand why a lack of independence prevented taking the same line when Holyrood is leading the Scottish response. Westminster has not imposed its rules on Scotland during this, it's decisions are it's own.


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			As I said life assurance does NOT renew.
		
Click to expand...

Mine does


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not true.
		
Click to expand...

So who does pick up the Scottish furlough bill?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Mine does
		
Click to expand...

Annually Renewable Term insurance policies provide a guarantee of continued insurability. 

Premiums may increase on renewal on an age related basis.


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



*Annually Renewable Term insurance* policies provide a guarantee of continued insurability.

Premiums may increase on renewal on an age related basis.
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't specified in the OP


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That wasn't specified in the OP
		
Click to expand...

Don't ask me, I didn't make the OP.

In any event ART accounts for such a small share of the market it isn't that relevant.


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			So who does pick up the Scottish furlough bill?
		
Click to expand...

the tax payer, or do you think we don't pay tax?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the tax payer, or do you think we don't pay tax?
		
Click to expand...

So all UK taxpayers pay for all UK employees who are furloughed.


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So all UK taxpayers pay for all UK employees who are furloughed.
		
Click to expand...

so who do you think pays  for these things ??? just English tax payers no doubt


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			so who do you think pays  for these things ??? just English tax payers no doubt

Click to expand...

Probably on a disproportionate basis.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			so who do you think pays  for these things ??? just English tax payers no doubt

Click to expand...

How in God's name do you draw that conclusion?

I was merely confirming that this is a UK wide cost rightly shared by all UK taxpayers. 

DfT on the other hand did appear to be suggesting that none of this cost was borne by English taxpayers.


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## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably on a disproportionate basis.
		
Click to expand...

Ooof 🤣


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably on a disproportionate basis.
		
Click to expand...

Take it upwith Boris and co they wanted to limit devolved powers


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Ooof 🤣
		
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just like the oil money taken by the treasury a while back  ooft


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			just like the oil money taken by the treasury a while back  ooft
		
Click to expand...

Is that the Shetlanders oil money?


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## huds1475 (Jun 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the tax payer, or do you think we don't pay tax?
		
Click to expand...

You‘ll be paying extra tax on Greggs pasties in the event of any independence.

Talk about being hit where it hurts Patrick 😂


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## Mudball (Jun 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			As I said life assurance does NOT renew.

You really should check facts before posting inflammatory nonsense.

Just read the link you posted.
		
Click to expand...

This was about life insurance and income protection for GPs.... GPs were being denied or hardshiped if they had Covid or antigens 
  i am glad to say from the recent statement from BMA and the Insurers, this has been resolved. The message now updated on the BMA website.  Fact checked


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## drdel (Jun 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably on a disproportionate basis.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, as per the Barnett Formula additional £3.8bn towards Covid 19.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 24, 2020)

Mudball said:



			This was about life insurance and income protection for GPs.... GPs were being denied or hardshiped if they had Covid or antigens
  i am glad to say from the recent statement from BMA and the Insurers, this has been resolved. The message now updated on the BMA website.  Fact checked
		
Click to expand...

So no proof that any doctor was denied cover.🤔


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Take it upwith Boris and co they wanted to limit devolved powers

Click to expand...

Dont bite the hand that feeds you. 🤭


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## patricks148 (Jun 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont bite the hand that feeds you. 🤭
		
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with   attitudes like that you wonder why the SNp want an indep Scotland


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## patricks148 (Jun 25, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			You‘ll be paying extra tax on Greggs pasties in the event of any independence.

Talk about being hit where it hurts Patrick 😂
		
Click to expand...

not for me dear boy, you couldn't pay me to go to one


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

Just found myself agreeing 100% with Bernard Jenkin On Today.  Curious times. He was supporting the call made by the heads of the medical royal colleges for a review (not a full blown inquiry) on pandemic preparedness to happen now. To make sure all lessons have been learned as public trust that they have been is not high.


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## patricks148 (Jun 25, 2020)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...gh-371GJBxwfFED7JoW_enWivAXYAFR4D4mviL-djKNJA 

what a suprise, Tory Minister helps Conservative Doner avoid 40 million in Tax and gets backing of the PM.... leveling up indeed


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...gh-371GJBxwfFED7JoW_enWivAXYAFR4D4mviL-djKNJA

what a suprise, Tory Minister helps Conservative Doner avoid 40 million in Tax and gets backing of the PM.... leveling up indeed
		
Click to expand...

Same bloke who broke the lockdown rules and was conveniently ignored.
Horrible man.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			How in God's name do you draw that conclusion?

I was merely confirming that this is a UK wide cost rightly shared by all UK taxpayers.

DfT on the other hand did appear to be suggesting that none of this cost was borne by English taxpayers.
		
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I did not, you were the one who jumped to that conclusion.
Westminster has clearly stated that it will not pay for Scots only additional furlough costs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)




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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...gh-371GJBxwfFED7JoW_enWivAXYAFR4D4mviL-djKNJA 

what a suprise, Tory Minister helps Conservative Doner avoid 40 million in Tax and gets backing of the PM.... leveling up indeed
		
Click to expand...

Avoiding tax is not illegal, evading is.
If the £40m had to be paid the job was not viable and much needed social housing would be cancelled,  something the Government would not want.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Avoiding tax is not illegal, evading is.
If the £40m had to be paid the job was not viable and much needed social housing would be cancelled,  something the Government would not want.
		
Click to expand...

Having someone else rush a decision through is and is why after Jenrick was forced to reverse his decision.

“The decision was reversed after legal action by Tower Hamlets Council and Mr Jenrick accepted his decision was "unlawful by reason of apparent bias".

The story is Jenrick’s behaviour not whether tax avoidance is legal or not, that’s just deflection.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Same bloke who broke the lockdown rules and was conveniently ignored.
Horrible man.
		
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A work colleague once described my boss at the time, who had the demenour and mannerisms not unlike those of Jenrick, as being oleaginous...

I had to look up the word then demurred from agreeing...


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Having someone else rush a decision through is and is why after Jenrick was forced to reverse his decision.

“The decision was reversed after legal action by Tower Hamlets Council and Mr Jenrick accepted his decision was "unlawful by reason of apparent bias".

The story is Jenrick’s behaviour not whether tax avoidance is legal or not, that’s just deflection.
		
Click to expand...

I do accept that Paul and, in the end, the right thing was done, but by it being stopped the downside could be much needed housing being unaffordable to build due to the levy


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Avoiding tax is not illegal, evading is.
If the £40m had to be paid the job was not viable and much needed social housing would be cancelled,  something the Government would not want.
		
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The tax they avoided paying, by 1 day, was to pay towards local amenities such as schools, sports facilities, parks, community projects etc. It was to provide a better environment for those new residents and in terms of schools an essential service. Not ideal to have lots of new housing and then have to send your kids miles away because the local schools are over subscribed. I understand why the developer wants to avoid paying it but there is a very good reason why the tax was introduced.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I do accept that Paul and, in the end, the right thing was done, but by it being stopped the downside could be much needed housing being unaffordable to build due to the levy
		
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Or another developer who is happy to behave correctly comes in and develops the site?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			with   attitudes like that you wonder why the SNp want an indep Scotland

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With attitudes like Yours and Doons I wish they had one 🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Avoiding tax is not illegal, evading is.
		
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And so we have Nadhim Zahawi  on the Today programme this morning telling us with a straight face that Jenrick didn't know he was going to be on the same table as Desmond at the fundraiser...and that so it was just one of these things that Desmond was able to show Jenrick a promo video for the development...and that they then shared phone numbers?  Maybe Jenrick already had Desmond's or vice versa.  Who knows  Just coincidence of course.

And if Joe Bloggs from Doncaster wants similar access to a minister that Desmond had? Well Zahawi was quite clear - all Joe has to do is pay to go along to a fundraiser for his local Tory MP.  So actually quite easy really for any of us to buy access.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The tax they avoided paying, by 1 day, was to pay towards local amenities such as schools, sports facilities, parks, community projects etc. It was to provide a better environment for those new residents and in terms of schools an essential service. Not ideal to have lots of new housing and then have to send your kids miles away because the local schools are over subscribed. I understand why the developer wants to avoid paying it but there is a very good reason why the tax was introduced.
		
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All developments of this size have a planning gain tax (section 106 as far as I remember) to pay for schools, doctors surgery etc etc  depending on the size of development, this, I believe was an extra tax  over and above the usual one and whilst I understand the benefit to it, imo, it ceases to be a benefit if it pushes the build to unaffordable


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have Nadhim Zahawi  on the Today programme this morning telling us with a straight face that Jenrick didn't know he was going to be on the same table as Desmond at the fundraiser...and that so it was just one of these things that Desmond was able to show Jenrick a promo video for the development...and that they then shared phone numbers?  Maybe Jenrick already had Desmond's or vice versa.  Who knows  Just coincidence of course.

And if Joe Bloggs from Doncaster wants similar access to a minister that Desmond had? Well Zahawi was quite clear - all Joe has to do is pay to go along to a fundraiser for his local Tory MP.  So actually quite easy really for any of us to buy access.
		
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To be fair, you are just guessing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			All developments of this size have a planning gain tax (section 106 as far as I remember) to pay for schools, doctors surgery etc etc  depending on the size of development, this, I believe was an extra tax  over and above the usual one and whilst I understand the benefit to it, imo, it ceases to be a benefit if it *pushes the build to unaffordable*

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And I agree Chris, but what we don’t know if it’s the difference between unaffordable or less profitable.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			And I agree Chris, but what we don’t know if it’s the difference between unaffordable or less profitable.
		
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No we dont but £40m off the bottom line of a development is a lot of loss


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No we dont but £40m off the bottom line of a development is a lot of loss
		
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To me and you, hideous, but if the developer is only going to make £60m instead of £100m (for example) then..........


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No we dont but £40m off the bottom line of a development is a lot of loss
		
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And it is a *massive *loss to Tower Hamlets given the social deprivation and housing issues that council has to deal with.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			All developments of this size have a planning gain tax (section 106 as far as I remember) to pay for schools, doctors surgery etc etc  depending on the size of development, this, I believe was an extra tax  over and above the usual one and whilst I understand the benefit to it, imo, it ceases to be a benefit if it pushes the build to unaffordable
		
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£1bn development, 1,500 apartments, a significant increase from the original plan. I'm pretty sure in London there will be a decent profit left.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

You know - it is possible to be very grateful to ministers who were fully behind Brexit as MPs or who were already ministers - and who spoke well about leaving - but to look now and accept that many of them are frankly rubbish about everything else.

There is no law of nature that says that Brexit supporting ministers must be supported no matter what; that whatever they do or say must be rationalised into acceptance - just because they supported Brexit.  

Maybe, just maybe - supporting Brexit was as good as it was ever going to get with some of them - and a change is required,  and they can be stood down with grateful thanks.

And so today we find the usual suspects rallying behind Jenrick despite the evidence in front of us; and shrugging or diverting when Zahawi tells us that we can buy access to MPs and ministers to punt our latest money-making scheme by buying a ticket for a Troy-party fundraising event.  And that he said this quite openly, unashamedly and as a matter of fact is just OK.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 25, 2020)

Can they not stipulate that the developer has to build the school and a walk in centre etc as part of the contract.
So they need so many new school places for so many houses .
Or is that to simple.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And it is a *massive *loss to Tower Hamlets given the social deprivation and housing issues that council has to deal with.
		
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So it may have, or may not have, been better the push the plan through as no development = possibly no housing, but no £40m = 1500 apartments, but builders only build for profit


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You know - it is possible to be very grateful to ministers who were fully behind Brexit as MPs or who were already ministers - and who spoke well about leaving - but to look now and accept that many of them are frankly rubbish about everything else.

There is no law of nature that says that Brexit supporting ministers must be supported no matter what; that whatever they do or say must be rationalised into acceptance - just because they supported Brexit.  

Maybe, just maybe - supporting Brexit was as good as it was ever going to get with some of them - and a change is required,  and they can be stood down with grateful thanks.

And so today we find the usual suspects rallying behind Jenrick despite the evidence in front of us; and shrugging or diverting when Zahawi tells us that we can buy access to MPs and ministers to punt our latest money-making scheme by buying a ticket for a Troy-party fundraising event.  And that he said this quite openly, unashamedly and as a matter of fact is just OK.
		
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I think that’s always been the case .
Just lots have not been caught.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can they not stipulate that the developer has to build the school and a walk in centre etc as part of the contract.
So they need so many new school places for so many houses .
Or is that to simple.
		
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Not too simple. The pre app meetings will let the Council say what they think of the plan and insist/recommend what the plan needs, what their red lines are, how much for planning gain and the cost of achieving planning permission


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			So it may have, or may not have, been better the push the plan through as no development = possibly no housing, but no £40m = 1500 apartments, but builders only build for profit
		
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Yes but I would rather pay the tax and make a profit on the contract than not do anything at all and make nothing.
So the tax must be hurting the profit more than we know.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



*Yes but I would rather pay the tax and make a profit on the contract than not do anything at all and make nothing.*
So the tax must be hurting the profit more than we know.
		
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Unless I could likely make a better profit by investing the money elsewhere!


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Not too simple. The pre app meetings will let the Council say what they think of the plan and insist/recommend what the plan needs, what their red lines are, how much for planning gain and the cost of achieving planning permission
		
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That sounds too much like the Council is 'negotiating a deal' as opposed to 'checking that the proposal is likely to comply with Planning regs'/Council 'Grand Scheme'! Surely there are 'standards' that prevent that sort of thing (with a small amount of 'wiggle room' for both sides)! Or am I being naive?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

Evidence of what is being seen on beaches; in parks, and by lakes across the country is that many either don't understand; choose to not understand, or choose to ignore.  I just can't see this turning out well...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can they not stipulate that the developer has to build the school and a walk in centre etc as part of the contract.
So they need so many new school places for so many houses .
Or is that to simple.
		
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They can - however see Trump and Aberdeen and ask how much of the housing and facilities promised off the back of the golf course have been delivered.


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## Mudball (Jun 25, 2020)

The great British common sense......  Just add alcohol


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## Mudball (Jun 25, 2020)

And here is Boris new Air force One....  A million quid to make a cheap BA knockoff


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## Wolf (Jun 25, 2020)

Mudball said:



			And here is Boris new Air force One....  A million quid to make a cheap BA knockoff






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So basically they painted a Voyager white with a Union Flag tail. 

Utterly pointless waste of money.


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## rulefan (Jun 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Evidence of what is being seen on beaches; in parks, and by lakes across the country is that many either don't understand; choose to not understand, *or choose to ignore. * I just can't see this turning out well...
		
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## Beezerk (Jun 25, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The great British common sense......  Just add alcohol







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Aaah, the old act like an absolute knob turd and then blame someone else routine 🤣


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## huds1475 (Jun 25, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The great British common sense......  Just add alcohol







Click to expand...

That's the easiest where's Wally I've ever seen.

Spoiler - everywhere!


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That sounds too much like the Council is 'negotiating a deal' as opposed to 'checking that the proposal is likely to comply with Planning regs'/Council 'Grand Scheme'! Surely there are 'standards' that prevent that sort of thing (with a small amount of 'wiggle room' for both sides)! Or am I being naive?
		
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Naive to some extent. I had a pre app planning meeting with the local council about a week back ,and there was a certain amount of horse trading. They said at the very beginning that the site (a club) was extremely interesting for a development  but we discussed quite a few smaller issues, not least to assure them that the future of the club was guaranteed.  There was horse trading over the detail of the plan eg what we didnt want to spend money on against frills they wanted to see.

The legally bit comes when we put in the actual application


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 25, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Unless I could likely make a better profit by investing the money elsewhere!
		
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Possibly but there can’t be many better housing markets to make mega bucks than London!


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They can - however see Trump and Aberdeen and ask how much of the housing and facilities promised off the back of the golf course have been delivered.
		
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That should have been ring fenced in the legal contract.
If you don’t build the houses the course and hotel dosnt open.


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That should have been ring fenced in the legal contract.
If you don’t build the houses the course and hotel dosnt open.
		
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Who oversees the planning application I wonder, planning has always been a farce.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Naive to some extent. I had a pre app planning meeting with the local council about a week back ,and there was a certain amount of horse trading. They said at the very beginning that the site (a club) was extremely interesting for a development  but we discussed quite a few smaller issues, not least to assure them that the future of the club was guaranteed.  There was horse trading over the detail of the plan eg what we didnt want to spend money on against frills they wanted to see.

The legally bit comes when we put in the actual application
		
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Do you see that as something approaching 'corruption' of their role? I have no problem if they have designated an area as 'to be upgraded' to 'better' businesses that improve the overall area. But I've also seen some (housing) developments that shout 'corruption'!
I knew a guy (we used to drink at the pub across the road from where I lived) whose main income was  setting up Tesco stores (of every style) and gtting through the planning process.

It seems to me that there's a 'reasonable' chunk of 'corruption' (not cash in pockets, simply desired 'style') involved in far too many proposals!


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Possibly but there can’t be many better housing markets to make mega bucks than London!
		
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Well, the restrictions might be tempering that, but there's an implicit 'in London' (or elsewhere) in my post!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

Can we get this thread back on track and the disgusting behaviour by Jenrick.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Can we get this thread back on track and the disgusting behaviour by Jenrick.
		
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If its going back on track, what has Jenrick's behaviour got to do with Coronavirus? I don't doubt for one minute what he's done in the planning application stinks to high heaven and beyond but it has nothing to do with the govt's response to C-19.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If its going back on track, what has Jenrick's behaviour got to do with Coronavirus? I don't doubt for one minute what he's done in the planning application stinks to high heaven and beyond but it has nothing to do with the govt's response to C-19.
		
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He should of been sacked for breaking the lockdown, it shows a pattern.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He should of been sacked for breaking the lockdown, it shows a pattern.
		
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Can't disagree with you there. And the reason Bournemouth beach etc is seeing the crowds is very much on the back of him and the likes of Cummings ignoring lockdown. Credibility went out of the window with the 'do as I say, not as I do' behaviour.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If its going back on track, what has Jenrick's behaviour got to do with Coronavirus? I don't doubt for one minute what he's done in the planning application stinks to high heaven and beyond but it has nothing to do with the govt's response to C-19.
		
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Come on now, you have to use Forum logic here.
Jenricks a Tory, therefore everything he is involved with is evil, Corona Virus is evil therefore he must be involved with it. The property issue is merely an excuse to mention his name and expose his evil ways even further.

I'll get me coat.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Do you see that as something approaching 'corruption' of their role? I have no problem if they have designated an area as 'to be upgraded' to 'better' businesses that improve the overall area. But I've also seen some (housing) developments that shout 'corruption'!
I knew a guy (we used to drink at the pub across the road from where I lived) whose main income was  setting up Tesco stores (of every style) and gtting through the planning process.

It seems to me that there's a 'reasonable' chunk of 'corruption' (not cash in pockets, simply desired 'style') involved in far too many proposals!
		
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Yes,  I do see the corruption view. I'm not sure however that you can justify the claim that there is a high level of corruption though. The Government want more and more housing and planners in Councils have to follow the Government's wishes or they will just be overruled at appeal and that really doesnt look good given the escalating cost of appeal


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Can't disagree with you there. And the reason Bournemouth beach etc is seeing the crowds is very much on the back of him and the likes of Cummings ignoring lockdown. Credibility went out of the window with the 'do as I say, not as I do' behaviour.
		
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Well that and a rather large bunch of turd for brains on Bornmouth beach.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Well that and a rather large bunch of turd for brains on Bornmouth beach.
		
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Two bars here had dancing last week - not permitted under the new normal. Both closed for 2 weeks and fined €3,000. When a govt enforces its rules, the majority do what they are supposed to do. When members of the govt show the level of arrogance to those rules that they have, what do you expect? Two wrongs don't make a right but if we're going to start calling them turd brains we should include govt and opposition MP's in that.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Two bars here had dancing last week - not permitted under the new normal. Both closed for 2 weeks and fined €3,000. When a govt enforces its rules, the majority do what they are supposed to do. When members of the govt show the level of arrogance to those rules that they have, what do you expect? Two wrongs don't make a right but if we're going to start calling them turd brains we should include govt and opposition MP's in that.
		
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Anyone who acts deliberately in a way that could spread the virus has turd brain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Anyone who acts deliberately in a way that could spread the virus has turd brain.
		
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But there are no turd brains in this country - they are all fully informed and logical in their reasoning.  Apparently.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Anyone who acts deliberately in a way that could spread the virus has turd brain.
		
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So lets start by sacking the govt ministers that behaved that way, along with MP's of all parties that did the same.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So lets start by sacking the govt ministers that behaved that way, along with MP's of all parties that did the same.
		
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Fair enough. Bit difficult sacking all those on the beach though 😉


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But there are no turd brains in this country - they are all fully informed and logical in their reasoning.  Apparently.
		
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If you say so.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 25, 2020)

Local paper reported that low life scum  have been using the RNLI station as their personal toilet 😠😡


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2020)

Are we safe to assume that after the VE Day celebrations, the BLM protests, the morons visiting beaches and the relaxation of lock down that if we don't get a second wave of infections within the next couple of weeks that we won't get one and we are safe to carry on as normal? 

All of the above events have been given as examples of why we will see a second wave of infections, but to date we haven't seen that uptick, and we are far enough down the line that we should have seen the result of some of them.


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## ExRabbit (Jun 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are we safe to assume that after the VE Day celebrations, the BLM protests, the morons visiting beaches and the relaxation of lock down that if we don't get a second wave of infections within the next couple of weeks that we won't get one and we are safe to carry on as normal?

All of the above events have been given as examples of why we will see a second wave of infections, but to date we haven't seen that uptick, and we are far enough down the line that we should have seen the result of some of them.
		
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Yet, if we had all kept to guidelines, we may have been in a far better state by now. So many excuses to not conform. SMH.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are we safe to assume that after the VE Day celebrations, the BLM protests, the morons visiting beaches and the relaxation of lock down that if we don't get a second wave of infections within the next couple of weeks that we won't get one and we are safe to carry on as normal?

All of the above events have been given as examples of why we will see a second wave of infections, but to date we haven't seen that uptick, and we are far enough down the line that we should have seen the result of some of them.
		
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Most of Spain unlocked on Monday. Yesterday 4 of the semi-autonomous regions were knocked back two phases and 7 other regions are seeing a spike. New cases have been doubling every day for almost a week.

I don’t think the U.K. is populated by super beings, and I do think it will see a second wave.


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## Slab (Jun 26, 2020)

Not sure I see the logic in the Health sec only _'threatening'_ to close beaches, just close them. The behaviour yesterday shows that the public can’t self-police this kind of thing. Why risk a repeat this weekend 
It'll also serve as a timely warning ahead of the pubs opening


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## Beezerk (Jun 26, 2020)

Slab said:



			Not sure I see the logic in the Health sec only _'threatening'_ to close beaches, just close them. The behaviour yesterday shows that the public can’t self-police this kind of thing. Why risk a repeat this weekend
It'll also serve as a timely warning ahead of the pubs opening
		
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It's all over Facebook, people blaming Dominic Cummings for going to the beach 🙈
I never thought people could be so moronic but they have surpassed my expectations.


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## rudebhoy (Jun 26, 2020)

Pictures from Bournemouth beach are incredibly depressing, bound to be health consequences. Hopefully a local breakout rather than the cause of a second wave.

However you have to ask how it happened? As soon as the beach was at its safe capacity, road blocks should have been in place to stop anyone else getting there.


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## rulefan (Jun 26, 2020)

22 tons of rubbish collected from Bournemouth beach.


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## Reemul (Jun 26, 2020)

I live in Bournemouth, it's been bedlam, except for us it has not, weather has been great and normally we would have been out in the evenings paddle boarding and enjoying our beach hut at Sandbanks as a family. Instead we stayed away.

I was worried the last time it happened but we have not seen a spike in cases or an increase in deaths over the last month so maybe it is not as bad as some of us fear.

Disappointed in the local council, easy enough to close the car parks and close off roads, not much access to Sandbanks just the main road. I mean it was not like you could not see it happening.  Additionally I just don't understand why travel distance has not been limited at the outset.

if we get more hot weather, pubs opening I just cannot see how it cannot even get worse, we have millions still furloughed with nothing to do. Maybe furloughing should have come with some restrictions to continue receiving it.


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## chrisd (Jun 26, 2020)

Dont clear the 22 tons of rubbish, that should deter people from sitting on the beach 🤣🤣


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2020)

Before the rant, I totally agree that an individual should be completely responsible for their own actions, however, we all know that isn’t how some behave.

Hancock this morning has stated beach’s will be closed if people don’t start observing the social distancing rules! Are these Governments Ministers completely thick or just have their head buried in sand? Social Distancing has been ignored by thousands for months now and they have done nothing but relax the rules!

The severe punishment/closures should of been implemented as soon as the first reports came in.

Threatening to close beaches a week before opening the pubs etc is ridiculous, too late hancock, too late.


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## bobmac (Jun 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are we safe to assume that after the VE Day celebrations, the BLM protests, the morons visiting beaches and the relaxation of lock down that if we don't get a second wave of infections within the next couple of weeks that we won't get one and we are safe to carry on as normal?

All of the above events have been given as examples of why we will see a second wave of infections, but to date we haven't seen that uptick, and we are far enough down the line that we should have seen the result of some of them.
		
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I agree.
Weren't the beaches rammed during the bank holiday and there has been no 'second wave' from then. Here's hoping


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## Reemul (Jun 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I agree.
Weren't the beaches rammed during the bank holiday and there has been no 'second wave' from then. Here's hoping
		
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Yeah there is hope, bit worrying the massive increase in cases in the US and now some EU countries are seeing spikes. Just have to hope the outside helps with the spread like they think and being indoors is the bigger worry.


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## drdel (Jun 26, 2020)

A few thousand acting like morons. 60million not. 

What do you expect in a 'free' society? 
There have been idiots around for centuries. 

We do not have to act the same!!!


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are we safe to assume that after the VE Day celebrations, the BLM protests, the morons visiting beaches and the relaxation of lock down that if we don't get a second wave of infections within the next couple of weeks that we won't get one and we are safe to carry on as normal?

All of the above events have been given as examples of why we will see a second wave of infections, but to date we haven't seen that uptick, and we are far enough down the line that we should have seen the result of some of them.
		
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Agreed with your first sentence, what we can learn from all of that, is the risk of infection is pretty low outside.

Your second sentence and no second wave happening, I hope you are right. However from previous inside spaces & events and still going on in other countries etc, inside is high risk. All the know bigger super spreader times have happened inside...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			A few thousand acting like morons. 60million not.

What do you expect in a 'free' society?
There have been idiots around for centuries.

We do not have to act the same!!!
		
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I think it's more than a few thousand.


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

Used to live near beaches, and one thing I learnt quickly growing up, was never go near the main beaches, on sunny days. Far to many people in one area for my liking, go a couple of miles up/down the coast from the main beach and things get pleasant. Never moaned about it, as I don't own the beach or the area I live.

Been like that since Victorian days, would have thought people would have got used to that fact by now (see previous post over my feelings on being outside being low risk for spread)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			Used to live near beaches, and one thing I learnt quickly growing up, was never go near the main beaches, on sunny days. Far to many people in one area for my liking, go a couple of miles up/down the coast from the main beach and things get pleasant. Never moaned about it, as I don't own the beach or the area I live.

Been like that since Victorian days, would have thought people would have got used to that fact by now (see previous post over my feelings on being outside being low risk for spread)
		
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It’s not just the beaches though, illegal raves, street parties, house parties, visits to countryside etc.

I don’t believe we are in “normal” times so I’d expect behaviour to be adjusted.


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not just the beaches though, illegal raves, street parties, house parties, visits to countryside etc.

I don’t believe we are in “normal” times so I’d expect behaviour to be adjusted.
		
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When you have about 9 million people furloughed and a lot of self employed people/business owners not working full time either. (Yeah those figures are about correct and scary.)

It is exactly what I would expect of humans, beaches packed on a sunny day. 

And to be honest purely from a virus catching it point of view, being on the beach or in the countryside as the risk of infection is low, far better being on the beach than inside having a house party or group hugging in their garden etc.

Not saying it is right as I wouldn't do it(wouldn't do it in normal times) but taking emotions out of it, the risk of a second wave from being on  a beach is very low, as history has shown us.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			When you have about 9 million people furloughed and a lot of self employed people/business owners not working full time either. (Yeah those figures are about correct and scary.)

It is exactly what I would expect of humans, beaches packed on a sunny day.

And to be honest purely from a virus catching it point of view, being on the beach or in the countryside as the risk of infection is low, far better being on the beach than inside having a house party or group hugging in their garden etc.

Not saying it is right as I wouldn't do it(wouldn't do it in normal times) but taking emotions out of it, the risk of a second wave from being on  a beach is very low, as history has shown us.
		
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But if almost draconioan measures had been put in place originally and the first transgressors would of been hit hard then the message may of sunk in.

Just because we’ve always had idiots it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and control them.

Why bother with any measures if we are happy to make excuses for those who ignore them?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			When you have about 9 million people furloughed and a lot of self employed people/business owners not working full time either. (Yeah those figures are about correct and scary.)

It is exactly what I would expect of humans, beaches packed on a sunny day.

And to be honest purely from a virus catching it point of view, being on the beach or in the countryside as the risk of infection is low, far better being on the beach than inside having a house party or group hugging in their garden etc.

Not saying it is right as I wouldn't do it(wouldn't do it in normal times) but taking emotions out of it, the risk of a second wave from being on  a beach is very low, as history has shown us.
		
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Being on the beach isnt the problem, its proximity. OK, the virus spreads less in an outdoor environment but it will spread and if people gather closely in large numbers then the risk is there.  All risk taking with this virus is stupid and cannot be defended.  I have to say the travel distance restrictions in the rest of the UK is a better way due to so many people not being sensible enough to be trusted.


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But if almost draconioan measures had been put in place originally and the first transgressors would of been hit hard then the message may of sunk in.

Just because we’ve always had idiots it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and control them.

Why bother with any measures if we are happy to make excuses for those who ignore them?
		
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A big leap there, from being outside being fairly safe to what you say there.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I am saying facts ie. beach low risk, people always goto beach when sunny, no second wave from previous hot days. 

So talking about beach is a red herring in second wave coming, emotive yes but not true.


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Being on the beach isnt the problem, its proximity. OK, the virus spreads less in an outdoor environment but it will spread and if people gather closely in large numbers then the risk is there.  All risk taking with this virus is stupid and cannot be defended.  I have to say the travel distance restrictions in the rest of the UK is a better way due to so many people not being sensible enough to be trusted.
		
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I agree with you apart from the travel restrictions outlook, at this stage in the spread.

I know and you know, I am not going to change your opinion about beaches.

Show me the FACTS (not emotions) from the beach going,  producing a 2nd wave or increasing infections considerably, prove your point and I will be happy to change my opinion tho.

Yet to see facts by anyone on the forum or anywhere to be honest, from beach going producing the 2nd wave, only seen loads of emotional talk over it.


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## GB72 (Jun 26, 2020)

Taking a different approach (and yes, I do still think that there are idiots), I simply think that many have reached the limit of how long people can be locked down for. People have, in the main, been reasonably well behaved for 3 months now but, and I have some sympathy with this, some people have said that enough is enough. We cannot hide from this forever and they are getting on with their lives. I especially see this in the younger generation who do not see the virus as a direct threat but see the lockdown as more of a threat to their futures. 

Lets also look at this from another point of view. I am sure many on here have gardens and, even if they do not, they have access to a golf course. Think about those that do not. Lets look at an urban family living in a flat with no garden, no outdoor space and it is 32 degrees. Would you sit inside in that. Would you head to a park. Would you head to a beach. I certainly would. How many times did I hear on the radio yesterday 'why don't they stay in their gardens', well, it may surprise some people but not everyone has one, not everyone has a home environment where it is even slightly comfortable to be in 32 degree heat.

I also maintain my concern about the local authority. I have seen councils apply a booking system for car parks (applies to many of the lakes near me). You go online and book a space in a car park. No online booking confirmation for a parking space, the police turn you away from the area. Soon calmed down as people realised that no booking meant no access.


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## Mudball (Jun 26, 2020)

Got a marketing mail from Booking .com saying I should plan a holiday to the beach in the UK ... some very tempting options (not)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			A big leap there, from being outside being fairly safe to what you say there.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I am saying facts ie. beach low risk, people always goto beach when sunny, no second wave from previous hot days.

So talking about beach is a red herring in second wave coming, emotive yes but not true.
		
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Not that big a leap from my post that you answered were I mentioned more than the beaches being the issue, the beaches are just 1 place the idiots have gathered.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2020)

Slightly OT but to me the Union flag on Hair Force One looks upside down.
Is that not a distress signal.

Well worth nearly £1m though, think of all the prestige it will bring when Johnstone, Mogg, Gove, Patel etc fly off to Paris.


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not that big a leap from my post that you answered were I mentioned more than the beaches being the issue, the beaches are just 1 place the idiots have gathered.
		
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Outdoor stuff with some element of social distancing, has been proven to be really low risk. Emotive in groups yes but risk low.

People gathering illegally has been going on all around the world, even in harsher countries. Just look at Spain and how many fines they issued.

You really need to goto harsh measures to control the vast majority of people IMHO, ie. you could just disappear if you do not comply or have lockdown really early on and control arrivals(which I was a fan of)

but beaches or outside with an element of social distancing are not areas I lose sleep over, talk about pubs/clubhouses/clubs/gyms etc where people sit for a while, share stuff(chairs/tables etc) and fairly close and inside, worry me much more.

But hopefully cases will continue dropping, as we pick up more of the cases via more testing and the chances of catching it, becomes very very low, as you cant catch it from someone who isn't infected in outside or inside.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			Outdoor stuff with some element of social distancing, has been proven to be really low risk. Emotive in groups yes but risk low.

People gathering illegally has been going on all around the world, even in harsher countries. Just look at Spain and how many fines they issued.

You really need to goto harsh measures to control the vast majority of people IMHO, ie. you could just disappear if you do not comply.

but beaches or outside with an element of social distancing are not areas I don't lose sleep over, talk about pubs/clubhouses/clubs/gyms etc where people sit for a while, share stuff(chairs/tables etc) and fairly close and inside, worry me much more.

But hopefully cases will continue dropping, as we pick up more of the cases via more testing and the chances of catching it, becomes very very low, as you cant catch it from someone who isn't infected in outside or inside.

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It’s still worrying seeing any rise anywhere in the World, I understand there is less risk outside, but those risking it may then carry it inside to shops, public transport etc.

All these mass gatherings from protest marches to illegal raves to going the beach can all be traced back to not clamping down on the smaller outdoor gatherings early on.

We are stuck between the what we believe and what we are being told.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			When you have about 9 million people furloughed and a lot of self employed people/business owners not working full time either. (Yeah those figures are about correct and scary.)

It is exactly what I would expect of humans, beaches packed on a sunny day.

And to be honest purely from a virus catching it point of view, being on the beach or in the countryside as the risk of infection is low, far better being on the beach than inside having a house party or group hugging in their garden etc.

Not saying it is right as I wouldn't do it(wouldn't do it in normal times) but taking emotions out of it, the risk of a second wave from being on  a beach is very low, as history has shown us.
		
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Beaches packed?!? You expect beaches to be packed? When life was running normally, pre-lockdown in the UK, the infection rate was running at almost 4, and the UK's total number of deaths is over 40k.

Beaches here were off limits until a week and a half ago, and I'll put money on the weather being way better than you've had for the last 3 months.

We had out first beach visit today. The nearest family was 20 yds away, and if there were 200 families across a mile of beach that was also 200yds deep I'd be surprised. And its a tourist beach that mainly attracts Spaniards.

The simple observation is the UK has totally screwed up how its been managed. Over €9 million in fines mean people know exactly where they stand here. And we're seeing a blip in the numbers, doubly every day for almost a week.

Good luck.


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Beaches packed?!? You expect beaches to be packed? When life was running normally, pre-lockdown in the UK, the infection rate was running at almost 4, and the UK's total number of deaths is over 40k.

Beaches here were off limits until a week and a half ago, and I'll put money on the weather being way better than you've had for the last 3 months.

We had out first beach visit today. The nearest family was 20 yds away, and if there were 200 families across a mile of beach that was also 200yds deep I'd be surprised. And its a tourist beach that mainly attracts Spaniards.

The simple observation is the UK has totally screwed up how its been managed. Over €9 million in fines mean people know exactly where they stand here. And we're seeing a blip in the numbers, doubly every day for almost a week.

Good luck.
		
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I agree UK should have locked down earlier and harder, but that isn't what I am talking about.

I don't take the risk, so you are talking to the converted, why would I wish to take the risk and spend a day at a packed beach or like, as I previously posted...

Now emotive talk out of the way, have you heard of any of the clusters of cases in Spain, actually linked to beach transmission that I was talking about ?

In addition any new cases being attached to outside spaces or a super spreader event outside(involving crowds) ? All the articles I have read have been due to friends, family reunions, care homes, hospitals, inside spaces, work places and so on, outside infection with an element of social distancing seems really rare, like very rare and out of the people I know who have had it, none caught it outside.

Would genuinely be interested to hear if you know of any outside cases and if so, how many, any links ?


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## pendodave (Jun 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Beaches packed?!? You expect beaches to be packed? When life was running normally, pre-lockdown in the UK, the infection rate was running at almost 4, and the UK's total number of deaths is over 40k.

Beaches here were off limits until a week and a half ago, and I'll put money on the weather being way better than you've had for the last 3 months.

We had out first beach visit today. The nearest family was 20 yds away, and if there were 200 families across a mile of beach that was also 200yds deep I'd be surprised. And its a tourist beach that mainly attracts Spaniards.

The simple observation is the UK has totally screwed up how its been managed. Over €9 million in fines mean people know exactly where they stand here. And we're seeing a blip in the numbers, doubly every day for almost a week.

Good luck.
		
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For a really well run country, with draconian lockdown rules,  spain seems to have experienced a remarkably similar journey through the virus lifecycle to us...


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

pendodave said:



			For a really well run country, with draconian lockdown rules,  spain seems to have experienced a remarkably similar journey through the virus lifecycle to us...
		
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Spains residents are not whiter than white, one heck of a lot of fines have been issued and the lockdown rules stricter and earlier than we did, still don't understand how Spain was not more successful tbh?? 

IIRC there was a large crowd celebrating a saints day(?) the other day in Spain, that I read about and the cases being investigated in other regions were all linked to inside/work/family etc and some attached to things people should not be doing.

I know I read a medical paper from china(??) and out of something like 7000 odd cases, 1(yeah 1) had been link to an outside case over a discussion between 2 people iirc.

I like to take in the information/knowledge so I can amend my life according and when it is likely to be safe to go in a clubhouse or into my parents or childrens homes. To date it isn't safe or been allowed. As a result in my lockdown boredom have been reading a lot in lockdown !

Today another drop in UK cases, when compared to Friday last week cases. Hopefully we continue moving in the downward direction.

Anyway take care and have a great weekend.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			I agree with you apart from the travel restrictions outlook, at this stage in the spread.

I know and you know, I am not going to change your opinion about beaches.

Show me the FACTS (not emotions) from the beach going,  producing a 2nd wave or increasing infections considerably, prove your point and I will be happy to change my opinion tho.

Yet to see facts by anyone on the forum or anywhere to be honest, from beach going producing the 2nd wave, only seen loads of emotional talk over it.

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How can anyone produce facts, people could get Infected, go home infect others and so on, how can anyone prove this chain of infection started in a particular place unless a tracing app is used. Of course there is more chance of spreading infection indoors but that's not an excuse to gather in large numbers outside, The Cheltenham Festival for example was a mistake as was the Liverpool v Atletico match and these were outdoor events.  If we want to make our best effort to return to a near normal life then we dont need cockwombles (that bit was a bit emotional) increasing the risk of spreading the virus.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			It's all over Facebook, people blaming Dominic Cummings for going to the beach 🙈
I never thought people could be so moronic but they have surpassed my expectations.
		
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While I certainly don't condone it, that 'excuse' was a natural consequence of what Cummings did - and 'got away with doing'!
That, to me, is/was the primary reason why Cummings should have gone - either on his own or by being ditched! And similar applies to MPs who did similar - though the 'apology for being an idiot' that many of them issued generally suffices imo. They are pretty much constantly in the spotlight, and any glitch is likely to be noticed and reported. I've certainly had a 1 or 2 of those 'oops!' moments as, I'm sure, almost all of those still working are likely to have had in the millions of 'situations' encountered in a workplace!


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			...
Yet to see facts by anyone on the forum or anywhere to be honest, from beach going producing the 2nd wave, only seen loads of emotional talk over it.

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I'm inclined to believe that it's not 'being at the beach' that's the 'danger', but the act of 'going to the beach' and all the potential contacts surrounding that.


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2020)

Whether you feel going to the beach was right or wrong the amount of rubbish the majority leave behind is disgusting and nobody can excuse it.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			Spains residents are not whiter than white, one heck of a lot of fines have been issued and the lockdown rules stricter and earlier than we did, still don't understand how Spain was not more successful tbh??
...
		
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Latinos are much more 'touchy-feely' folk than Brits! I'm uncertain how their attitudes to Govt edicts compares.


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## DRW (Jun 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'm inclined to believe that it's not 'being at the beach' that's the 'danger', but the act of 'going to the beach' and all the potential contacts surrounding that.
		
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Absolutely agreed, if you go on public transport(rather than your own vehicle) or staying in say hotels or go to the shops or pubs or such like.   You cleverly moved it from outside space to inside  and will happen if they stay at home rather than goto the beach and then goto the shops or public toilet or pub etc

The big question still not fully answered moving forward is, will social distancing be adhered to inside and will it actually stop infection or drop infection rates a fair bit / a lot, as we reopen inside spaces.

I do know we can not remain locked forever, for many reasons. Hope a vaccine comes along in the coming few months or I wonder if I will ever go into my familys houses etc.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			...Hope a vaccine comes along in the coming few months or I wonder if I will ever go into my familys houses etc. 

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This has to be the #1 focus of health research in the world. Once a vaccine is freely available, virtually all current restrictions will disappear! It's ONLY because of the lack of a vaccine that these draconian restrictions are in place!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2020)

I expected Nicola to have a go at the Kelvingrove Park crowds today but she was quite muted, said that she can understand how they feel.
She did have a right go at the rubbish they left behind though.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Yes,  I do see the corruption view. *I'm not sure however that you can justify the claim that there is a high level of corruption though*. The Government want more and more housing and planners in Councils have to follow the Government's wishes or they will just be overruled at appeal and that really doesnt look good given the escalating cost of appeal
		
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I certaainly never did that! Though there's certainly 'opportunity' and a couple of developments I've seen would suggest that something dodgy went on! That's different to the legitimate planning 'deal-making' that is quite reasonable (at least imo) with the likes of supermarkets and massive developments, where it's the developer that should be funding any improvements_ required to the infrastructure nearby as a consequence of their development. _But that's the boundary I see should not be crossed. A developer bearing the cost of changing the roads around a supermarket so that traffic flows as it needs/should is fine. Building a sports hall, for example, as part of an 'agreement' to get planning permission for a supermarket strikes me as 'corruption' of the planning process!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Slightly OT but to me the Union flag on Hair Force One looks upside down.
Is that not a distress signal.

Well worth nearly £1m though, think of all the prestige it will bring when Johnstone, Mogg, Gove, Patel etc fly off to Paris.
		
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..and for when David Davis flies to Berlin to set out our terms of trade with the Germans for that nice and easy trade deal...


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## chrisd (Jun 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Building a sports hall, for example, as part of an 'agreement' to get planning permission for a supermarket strikes me as 'corruption' of the planning process!
		
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But invariably that is what I believe is "planning gain" or S106. It's a way for the council/community gets something it needs for allowing another thing that it needs. It's all over and above board, discussed in the pre app and the final planning process and then passed/rejected by the Council members - not the council employees. 

If the council doesnt want a supermarket and the councillors on the planning committee reject it then there is a likelihood that the developers will go to appeal and may always get approval anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2020)

...and I am not sure that it is _best _idea for George Eustace to be excusing the packed beaches of yesterday telling the interviewer today that - well - after all - we have been in lockdown for months and it has been the hottest day of the year.  Is that _really _the message that a minister should be putting out?


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



*But invariably that is what I believe is "planning gain" or S106. It's a way for the council/community gets something it needs for allowing another thing that it needs.* ...It's all over and above board, discussed in the pre app and the final planning process and then passed/rejected by the Council members - not the council employees.

If the council doesnt want a supermarket and the councillors on the planning committee reject it then there is a likelihood that the developers will go to appeal and may always get approval anyway.
		
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Now THAT'S where I believe 'the process' is (potentially) corrupt. S106 shemes seem, to me. to give too much power to councils to extract cash from developers - in effect another 'developer tax'! I'm not saying these things aren't appreiated, but they should be given by free choice, not demanded as part of a 'deal'!


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## chrisd (Jun 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Now THAT'S where I believe 'the process' is (potentially) corrupt. S106 shemes seem, to me. to give too much power to councils to extract cash from developers - in effect another 'developer tax'! I'm not saying these things aren't appreiated, but they should be given by free choice, not demanded as part of a 'deal'!
		
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I dont see how it could work in the way you say. If a contractor wants to build 2000 homes on a site then it's likely there would have to be a school, doctors surgery, shops, play areas, community centre road alterations etc etc . Councils have, for as long as I remember, taken section 106 money to fund those things given that the developers would want the biggest return on  the site and would prefer not to build them, although I do accept that it might be hard to sell houses on a 2000 homes site without incorporating most of the communal extras. The grass roots football club I've worked with for years is about to get a new clubhouse, changing rooms etc courtesy of a S106 from a local development which will be a lasting legacy for sport in the town.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I dont see how it could work in the way you say. If a contractor wants to build 2000 homes on a site then it's likely there would have to be a school, doctors surgery, shops, play areas, community centre road alterations etc etc . Councils have, for as long as I remember, taken section 106 money to fund those things given that the developers would want the biggest return on  the site and would prefer not to build them, although I do accept that it might be hard to sell houses on a 2000 homes site without incorporating most of the communal extras. The grass roots football club I've worked with for years is about to get a new clubhouse, changing rooms etc courtesy of a S106 from a local development which will be a lasting legacy for sport in the town.
		
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I don't have any issues with that - that's the proper use of S106. And, indeed, the developer is trying to minimise outlay, therefore maximising profit! It's where 'unrelated contributions. are made that I question the ethics!
I'd sooner that new clubhouse had a big sign on it saying 'Provided under S106 by <insert developers> to achieve planning permission'!


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## chrisd (Jun 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I don't have any issues with that - that's the proper use of S106. And, indeed, the developer is trying to minimise outlay, therefore maximising profit! It's where 'unrelated contributions. are made that I question the ethics!
I'd sooner that new clubhouse had a big sign on it saying 'Provided under S106 by <insert developers> to achieve planning permission'!
		
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It wasnt actually done the normal way on this occasion as the money the council received was held for some time then eventually used at least 3 or 4 years later on what was agreed to be a project that is " for the good of the community" . The area that I live is a growth town so bribery is not needed to get permission to build, in fact they struggle to keep up with the 5 year house building plan 

I have just started the planning stage for a £7m to £9m development and no mention whatsoever of a contribution for S106 has been mentioned as the community will be served by the Social Club that i do book keeping for (not the football club) will be saved from liquidation as a result.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2020)

With deaths today 7.5% higher than last Friday and the weekly rolling average increasing from 118 on Wednesday to 119 on Thursday and now 121 today are we seeing the start of the second wave? The average time from someone getting the disease to dying from it is 23 days so was there something going on about 3 weeks ago that could account for this?

30th May was the first time scenes of crowds gathering on south coast beaches were reported - including people gathering closely together at Durdle Door to allow the air ambulance to land. This might seem a bit early but if there was secondary infection from those attending passing it on to others then it's a possible cause.

31st May was the first of the large BLM protests with thousands gathering in London. Again possibly too early but as above with secondary infections.

1st June was the first relaxation of lock down rules.

3rd June another BLM protest in Hyde Park but it was generally agreed that people were doing quite well at social distancing - although there were clashes with the police later that evening.

5th/6th June D-Day celebrations.

6th June the largest of the BLM protests in London and also approx 15000 gathering in Manchester.

Or are we simply seeing an anomaly in the data that is just a blip?


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## DRW (Jun 27, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			With deaths today 7.5% higher than last Friday and the weekly rolling average increasing from 118 on Wednesday to 119 on Thursday and now 121 today are we seeing the start of the second wave? The average time from someone getting the disease to dying from it is 23 days so was there something going on about 3 weeks ago that could account for this?

30th May was the first time scenes of crowds gathering on south coast beaches were reported - including people gathering closely together at Durdle Door to allow the air ambulance to land. This might seem a bit early but if there was secondary infection from those attending passing it on to others then it's a possible cause.

31st May was the first of the large BLM protests with thousands gathering in London. Again possibly too early but as above with secondary infections.

1st June was the first relaxation of lock down rules.

3rd June another BLM protest in Hyde Park but it was generally agreed that people were doing quite well at social distancing - although there were clashes with the police later that evening.

5th/6th June D-Day celebrations.

6th June the largest of the BLM protests in London and also approx 15000 gathering in Manchester.

Or are we simply seeing an anomaly in the data that is just a blip?
		
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Deaths reported comparison can be misleading due to delays in deaths being reported. A more relevant comparison is date of death and that is generally downwards(starting to get a bit noisy due to lower numbers now being reported).

Almost all relevant data I have seen, has been heading down, even the early warnings of the number of calls being made to 111 or testing positive by date of specimen or hospital admissions etc. Long may it continue.

Here are some good websites if you like data :-

http://covidtracker.uksouth.cloudapp.azure.com/

https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Hope that helps.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 27, 2020)

DRW said:



			Deaths reported comparison can be misleading due to delays in deaths being reported. A more relevant comparison is date of death and that is generally downwards(starting to get a bit noisy due to lower numbers now being reported).

Almost all relevant data I have seen, has been heading down, even the early warnings of the number of calls being made to 111 or testing positive by date of specimen or hospital admissions etc. Long may it continue.

Here are some good websites if you like data :-

http://covidtracker.uksouth.cloudapp.azure.com/

https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Hope that helps.
		
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Thanks for that. Always good to be able to look at more data to see what's actually going on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2020)

Not sure it’s that clever allowing reopening of pubs on a Saturday - and one with a date like 4th July.  Nothing like teeing up a bit of chaos for the stupid


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure it’s that clever allowing reopening of pubs on a Saturday - and one with a date like 4th July.  Nothing like teeing up a bit of chaos for the stupid
		
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Unfortunately stupid people will always be stupid and then there are the stupid people who blame others stupidity for the actions of stupid people.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure it’s that clever allowing reopening of pubs on a Saturday - and one with a date like 4th July.  Nothing like teeing up a bit of chaos for the stupid
		
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so what should they do. Not open until we have a vaccine? what is the solution. Labour and Conservative supportive here but clearly you are not


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## PNWokingham (Jun 28, 2020)

maybe Sturgeon's advice has not been clear enough!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-gimp-mask-terrorised-teenage-girls-park.html


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2020)

Not sure July 4th as a date has any impact on numbers drinking in the UK. Apart from Americans living over here does anyone else care? I think setting the date as a Monday rather than a Saturday would have been smarter however, let pubs ease into it. Doing it on a Saturday could be problematic.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			maybe Sturgeon's advice has not been clear enough!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-gimp-mask-terrorised-teenage-girls-park.html

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Not sure I recall Sturgeon giving advice on the wearing of gimp masks (or not wearing them). 

Also, it's Kirkcaldy so not sure any of that article is surprising. Possibly the fact it was just one gimp mask wearer is the most surprising part.


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## Reemul (Jun 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			so what should they do. Not open until we have a vaccine? what is the solution. Labour and Conservative supportive here but clearly you are not
		
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Maybe open on  a Monday or Tuesday rather than what is likely to be the busiest day of the week. Good ideas can always be offset by part of it being stupid. Common sense seems to have gone out of the window recently.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 28, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Maybe open on  a Monday or Tuesday rather than what is likely to be the busiest day of the week. Good ideas can always be offset by part of it being stupid. Common sense seems to have gone out of the window recently.
		
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whatever happens at whatever time, stupid is as stupid does and there is enough of that across the country - so there will inevitably be idiots, just part of life


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## spongebob59 (Jun 28, 2020)

If they opened on a Monday or Tuesday how many people who could go to work would.go.to.a.pub instead ? 
TBH most of the pub around here are open and serving takeaway in convenient 1 pint plastic glasses anywag.


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## drdel (Jun 28, 2020)

I see France has hit snags with the functionality of the Covid contact tracking App they adopted


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see France has hit snags with the functionality of the Covid contact tracking App they adopted
		
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Link?
Or are you just making it up - like politicians do?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not sure July 4th as a date has any impact on numbers drinking in the UK. *Apart from Americans living over here does anyone else care?* I think setting the date as a Monday rather than a Saturday would have been smarter however, let pubs ease into it. Doing it on a Saturday could be problematic.
		
Click to expand...

Me; it will be 23 years without having a fag.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Me; it will be 23 years without having a *fag*. 

Click to expand...

Public school huh! No details please if so!
If 'cig', then well done!


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Link?
Or are you just making it up - like politicians do?
		
Click to expand...

There is something on TechCrunch but I can’t work out how to copy and paste Links on the new iPad


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			so what should they do. Not open until we have a vaccine? what is the solution. Labour and Conservative supportive here but clearly you are not
		
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Open on a Tuesday...the 7th July would seem suitable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not sure July 4th as a date has any impact on numbers drinking in the UK. Apart from Americans living over here does anyone else care? I think setting the date as a Monday rather than a Saturday would have been smarter however, let pubs ease into it. Doing it on a Saturday could be problematic.
		
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Simply because I have already heard 4th July being referred to as UKs Independence Day and so something special to celebrate.  As we have to open pubs making the day of the week and date as low key and insignificant as possible would have seemed sensible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			whatever happens at whatever time, stupid is as stupid does and there is enough of that across the country - so there will inevitably be idiots, just part of life
		
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Don’t forget - there are no stupid people in the UK. They are all perfectly capable of understanding complex debate and issues - never mind the simple stuff.  Apparently.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Link?
Or are you just making it up - like politicians do?
		
Click to expand...

interesting Read

https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/23/f...S-raohW_3Rp6YhLCVobITY_U2mreU65lCallEX8ojHOOr


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don’t forget - there are no stupid people in the UK. They are all perfectly capable of understanding complex debate and issues - never mind the simple stuff.  Apparently.
		
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Or they just interpret the guidelines in a way that suits them and lack common sense.


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## drdel (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Link?
Or are you just making it up - like politicians do?
		
Click to expand...

Apology due?


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Maybe open on  a Monday or Tuesday rather than what is likely to be the busiest day of the week. Good ideas can always be offset by part of it being stupid. Common sense seems to have gone out of the window recently.
		
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My local has effectively gone invite only for next weekend. Regulars all messaged to reserve a spot on Saturday then open to others. Not on the list, you are not coming in until others leave for the day


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			Apology due?
		
Click to expand...

You would only need to do so if you continue to not provide a link - or refer to a post that does!


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You would only need to do so if you continue to not provide a link - or refer to a post that does!
		
Click to expand...

Depends on you definition of works.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			My local has effectively gone invite only for next weekend. Regulars all messaged to reserve a spot on Saturday then open to others. Not on the list, you are not coming in until others leave for the day
		
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Been trying to download the Weatherspoons and Young’s app but no joy. Must be thousands of others preparing.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2020)

Well I suppose at least we should be grateful he's not riding topless on a horse.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 28, 2020)

So apparently Leicester could be the first place to be put into a localised lockdown https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ockdown-amid-spike-in-covid-19-cases-12016655 

Is this really workable at a local level? Bit different when the whole country was effectively locked down and most people were very good at toeing the line. How well, if at all will a localised area toe the line especially when they see neighbouring towns and cities open for business. Can't see this been a success


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So apparently Leicester could be the first place to be put into a localised lockdown https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ockdown-amid-spike-in-covid-19-cases-12016655

Is this really workable at a local level? Bit different when the whole country was effectively locked down and most people were very good at toeing the line. How well, if at all will a localised area toe the line especially when they see neighbouring towns and cities open for business. Can't see this been a success
		
Click to expand...

What's the alternative though? Lockdown the whole country because Leicester is having a spike? Do nothing and let the spike grow?

I think is going to be the future for the next few months, localised spikes that need to be controlled. It is how Germany and France are dealing with it, why not us?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What's the alternative though? Lockdown the whole country because Leicester is having a spike? Do nothing and let the spike grow?

I think is going to be the future for the next few months, localised spikes that need to be controlled. It is how Germany and France are dealing with it, why not us?
		
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No idea. Was putting it out for discussion. Not implying do nothing and I am sure there will be a host of localised hotspots. Reading actually had more infections per head than Manchester and Liverpool but of course we were all locked down simultaneously. Not sure how receptive the local population will be if it had to lockdown and how do you implement it


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So apparently Leicester could be the first place to be put into a localised lockdown https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ockdown-amid-spike-in-covid-19-cases-12016655

Is this really workable at a local level? Bit different when the whole country was effectively locked down and most people were very good at toeing the line. How well, if at all will a localised area toe the line especially when they see neighbouring towns and cities open for business. Can't see this been a success
		
Click to expand...

Its what they're doing here in Spain. 4 semi-autonomous regions have been moved back 2 phases this week. Whether it will work in the UK...? 

Over here we have 4 village policemen, Guardia Local. They're backed up by 4 Protection Civil. The same is repeated in many villages, and they're further backed by larger forces in the towns, who also have Guardia National and Guardia Trafico. The Guardia don't mess about, and have been known to issue fines for not wearing a mask even though social distancing is being maintained(2metres). Argue with them and you risk a further fine of €3,000.

Can't see that ever happening in the UK.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its what they're doing here in Spain. 4 semi-autonomous regions have been moved back 2 phases this week. Whether it will work in the UK...?

Over here we have 4 village policemen, Guardia Local. They're backed up by 4 Protection Civil. The same is repeated in many villages, and they're further backed by larger forces in the towns, who also have Guardia National and Guardia Trafico. The Guardia don't mess about, and have been known to issue fines for not wearing a mask even though social distancing is being maintained(2metres). Argue with them and you risk a further fine of €3,000.

Can't see that ever happening in the UK.
		
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Me neither. I can see how it'll work in places like Spain with your regional governments backing up the local police and able to impose regulations at that level. Without such a thing in the UK aside from the police managing it, and already overworked and understaffed ho else can it be done and I simply can't see the public buying into it and complying


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No idea. Was putting it out for discussion. Not implying do nothing and I am sure there will be a host of localised hotspots. Reading actually had more infections per head than Manchester and Liverpool but of course we were all locked down simultaneously. Not sure how receptive the local population will be if it had to lockdown and how do you implement it
		
Click to expand...

We may just have to have a more visible police presence, council workers in hi vis jackets etc. If there is a spike the locals, wherever that may be, will have to just take it. Temporary orders, fines etc. Whatever it takes.

Local lockdown will be easier to sell and enforce than another national one when the problem is nowhere near the bulk of the population.

These are not normal times, we have to accept these measures, my opinion anyway.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We may just have to have a more visible police presence, council workers in hi vis jackets etc. If there is a spike the locals, wherever that may be, will have to just take it. Temporary orders, fines etc. Whatever it takes.

Local lockdown will be easier to sell and enforce than another national one when the problem is nowhere near the bulk of the population.

These are not normal times, we have to accept these measures, my opinion anyway.
		
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I totally agree with you. However I don't think many will be like you and me and accept the changes especially with pubs and shops open


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I totally agree with you. However I don't think many will be like you and me and accept the changes especially with pubs and shops open
		
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That then comes down to enforcement. Be harsh early, set the tone. The British are not generally a lawless bunch. Some will push guidelines, obviously based on recent times, but make them laws and it is a different matter.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We may just have to have a more visible police presence, council workers in hi vis jackets etc. If there is a spike the locals, wherever that may be, will have to just take it. Temporary orders, fines etc. Whatever it takes.

Local lockdown will be easier to sell and enforce than another national one when the problem is nowhere near the bulk of the population.

These are not normal times, we have to accept these measures, my opinion anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe it's time to create a new Special Constabulary where their schedules are based more like the Military Reserve or Retained Firefighters. They have to attend training each year, work as Police for a minimum number of days, be available for call up and receive pay while working and an annual Bounty if they fulfill the minimum number of days or more.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2020)

Tourist quarantine gaining a fair bit of support up here.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-adviser-consider-english-visitor-quarantine/

BTW Nicola's tartan face covering...…...the company making them have gone from 15 orders a day to 1,300 in one day.
I think Lady Doon has ordered one for me in my tartan...….I could become a cool dude.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tourist quarantine gaining a fair bit of support up here.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-adviser-consider-english-visitor-quarantine/

BTW Nicola's tartan face covering...…...the company making them have gone from 15 orders a day to 1,300 in one day.
I think Lady Doon has ordered one for me in my tartan...….I could become a cool dude.

Click to expand...

Must admit it is an improvement.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Must admit it is an improvement.
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tourist quarantine gaining a fair bit of support up here.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-adviser-consider-english-visitor-quarantine/

BTW Nicola's tartan face covering...…...the company making them have gone from 15 orders a day to 1,300 in one day.
I think Lady Doon has ordered one for me in my tartan...….I could become a cool dude.

Click to expand...

Not from the tourist industry, couldn't be enforced either way with such an open border.  One of your more manic posts with no thought or truth.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Open on a Tuesday...the 7th July would seem suitable.
		
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so in the scheme of things you think that would make a difference to all involved?


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

Now this is REALLY wort clapping - even though it will, hopefully, never be used!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-sc...s-clap-for-contractors-who-built-new-hospital


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			so in the scheme of things you think that would make a difference to all involved?
		
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If it saves just one life on a drunken English Independence Saturday [not British one as Johnson described it]      YES


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			so in the scheme of things you think that would make a difference to all involved?
		
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It might - and that surely is more important than an ‘independence day’ political pandering and sound bite - which will almost inevitably end up in one almighty piss-up for many; chaos, and violence.

No matter - supporters of Johnson and this manipulating shambles of a populist government will find a way to rationalise the 4th July as being the best option - at least no worse than any other.  When being honest to themselves they know it just isn’t.  And so onwards we march to a Sozzled 'Super Saturday' 4th July


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

And so...what is the plan for putting any town, city or region into lockdown and if there are various levels of lockdown and immediacy of lockdown what are these and what are the timelines for implementing them.  Because any such plans have to be predicated upon the learning from what worked and what didn’t work in Feb-April.  

First though the government has to tell us now what lessons have been learnt so that we know why we might be asked to do X immediately or Y in48hrs time etc. This is after all only what Bernard Jenkin is asking for.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If it saves just one life on a drunken English Independence Saturday [not British one as Johnson described it]      YES
		
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So explain English independance day?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It might - and that surely is more important than an ‘independence day’ political pandering and sound bite - which will almost inevitably end up in one almighty piss-up for many; chaos, and violence.

No matter - supporters of Johnson and this manipulating shambles of a populist government will find a way to rationalise the 4th July as being the best option - at least no worse than any other.  When being honest to themselves they know it just isn’t.  And so onwards we march to a Sozzled 'Super Saturday' 4th July
		
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what has Independance do got to do with Britain (yes Britain Doom). I have not noticed anything much going on from a UK perspective in respect of this day so cannot see it being any different to a usual Saturday. Whatever day the pubs open, they are going to be booked up to the extent of their reduced capacity. And as said above, we are circa 66 - 68 million in the UK and always have and always will have our fair share of idiots as does every country. There will imevtitable be flash points of over exuberance but this should not be blamed on the government as is usually the case for the "whatever they do is wrong" brigade on here


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			So explain English independance day?
		
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Think it is something to do with this...

_Britons have taken to social media to share their comical reactions *after Boris Johnson announced that pubs in England would be allowed to reopen from July 4* after months in lockdown._

_Following the Prime Minister's announcement, eager revellers across the country took to Twitter to celebrate the return of their favourite drinking establishments which were shut down on March 20._

_Some pub-goers thanked the country's leader for reopening their much-loved pubs while *others hailed the highly-anticipated return as the UK's 'Independence Day'. *_

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hilarious-memes-announced-pubs-open-time.html


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Think it is something to do with this...

_Britons have taken to social media to share their comical reactions *after Boris Johnson announced that pubs in England would be allowed to reopen from July 4* after months in lockdown._

_Following the Prime Minister's announcement, eager revellers across the country took to Twitter to celebrate the return of their favourite drinking establishments which were shut down on March 20._

_Some pub-goers thanked the country's leader for reopening their much-loved pubs while *others hailed the highly-anticipated return as the UK's 'Independence Day'. *_

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hilarious-memes-announced-pubs-open-time.html

Click to expand...

i must not have been up-to-date on my Daily Mail research! But, nevertheless, this would be the same if July 4 or July 7th as per your suggestion


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			what has Independance do got to do with Britain (yes Britain Doom). I have noticed anything much going on from a UK perspective in respect of this day so canno see it being any different to a usual Saturday. Whatever day the pubs open, they are going to be booked up to the extent of their reduced capacity. And as said above, we are circa 66 - 68 million in the UK and always have and always will have our fair share of idiots as does every country. There will imevtitable be flash points of over exuberance but this should not be blamed on the government as is usually the case for the "whatever they do is wrong" brigade on here
		
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There are no idiots or stupids in this country remember...all are quite capable of understand complex issues and debates...

But there are plenty who will get sozzled on a Saturday who might only get tipsy on a Tuesday.

We really don't need to try and rationalize reopening on a Saturday being common sense rather than just a populist measure.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i must not have been up-to-date on my Daily Mail research! But, nevertheless, this would be the same if July 4 or July 7th as per your suggestion
		
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I think that you know *exactly* why some refer to 4th July being the 'UKs' Independence Day' and that such an epithet would not be quite so resonant on the 7th July - besides - I am sure that you also know that a Tipsy Tuesday is likely to be less of an issue for law and order that a Sozzled Saturday.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There are no idiots or stupids in this country remember...

But there are plenty who will get sozzled on a Saturday who might only get tipsy on a Tuesday.

We really don't need to try and rationalize reopening on a Saturday being common sense rather than just a populist measure.
		
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who said there are no idiots in this country?

The same idiots who will go over the top on Saturday would do just the same on whatever day pubs open


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you know *exactly* why some refer to 4th July being the 'UKs' Independence Day and that such an epithet would not be quite so resonant on the 7th July.
		
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what has the US got to do with the UK in this regard - it is their celebration day, not ours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			who said there are no idiots in this country?

The same idiots who will go over the top on Saturday would do just the same on whatever day pubs open
		
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Again - you know *exactly *who have told us over the last few years that people are not stupid and that they can understand complex issues...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			what has the US got to do with the UK in this regard - it is their celebration day, not ours.
		
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Forget it...


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Again - you know *exactly *who have told us over the last few years that people are not stupid and that they can understand complex issues...
		
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you are not making any sense. Obviously that is a brexit related comment.......


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## MegaSteve (Jun 29, 2020)

A senior member of the constabulary was on telly, this morning, criticising the decision to re-open drinking establishments of a Saturday... Sorry matey, but as you are almost certainly fully aware, DomCum (and puppet) believe they know best... Experts what experts! Seems Dom speaks and everyone falls into line or gets shown the door...


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## DRW (Jun 29, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277525086044672000



Worrying first proper uptick of early sign, calls to 111/999. Hopefully will kick down again once the next lot of data is release.


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## drdel (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			who said there are no idiots in this country?

The same idiots who will go over the top on Saturday would do just the same on whatever day pubs open
		
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I tend to agree. IMO 'average' level of intelligence is pretty sad. Average UK IQ is 100 which is not great. Having worked at a few Universities for a number of decades its disappointing to see the poor level of education achieved by a large proportion of these allegedly bright youngsters. Also my experience of employing a wide range of people the level of common sense is often sadly lacking.

Numerous social research studies have shown that drug and alcohol use is proportionately higher among the lower social economic groups, alongside poor diet etc.

No doubt some of the 'trouble' arises from the natural rebelliousness of the young but regretfully quite a bit is just wantonly anti-social and stupid.


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## DRW (Jun 29, 2020)

In respect of opening on a Saturday rather say Monday, one thing to remember is there are masses and masses of people are furloughed and not working full time, so everyday is almost a weekend day. So probably not as much of an affect as you expect, some yes but not as much.

I feel for the pub owners, how are they going to police(as such) the social distancing element (and separately also make any money). If being a publican wasn't hard work before the virus, its just got harder.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

Don't worry - a whack-a-mole (WT...!) strategy will keep spread of the virus under control.

Still not quite sure how opening up of pubs, restaurants and shops and us being urged us to *go out and spend*..sits with the government continuing to urge us all to *stay at home* *unless it is essential to go out*.  Apparently.  Pity we can't have any journalist or member of the public asking a minister to explain that apparent contradiction - but there we go.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

DRW said:



			In respect of opening on a Saturday rather say Monday, one thing to remember is there are masses and masses of people are furloughed and not working full time, so everyday is almost a weekend day. So probably not as much of an affect as you expect, some yes but not as much.

I feel for the pub owners, how are they going to police(as such) the social distancing element (and separately also make any money). If being a publican wasn't hard work before the virus, its just got harder.

Click to expand...

some yes but not much may well be true - even then why do it on a Saturday when you don't need to.


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## Kellfire (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			I tend to agree. IMO 'average' level of intelligence is pretty sad. Average UK IQ is 100 which is not great. Having worked at a few Universities for a number of decades its disappointing to see the poor level of education achieved by a large proportion of these allegedly bright youngsters. Also my experience of employing a wide range of people the level of common sense is often sadly lacking.

Numerous social research studies have shown that drug and alcohol use is proportionately higher among the lower social economic groups, alongside poor diet etc.

No doubt some of the 'trouble' arises from the natural rebelliousness of the young but regretfully quite a bit is just wantonly anti-social and stupid.
		
Click to expand...

You do know that they design IQ so that 100 is the average, right?


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## drdel (Jun 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You do know that they design IQ so that 100 is the average, right?
		
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Yes. Have you seen the questions that are required to achieve the 'average'? then take note and realise that 50% aren't capable of reaching even that low bar.

And, remember it's a skewed population as many of those who take IQ tests probably think they'll do well (unless it part of a job interview type situation.


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## DRW (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			some yes but not much may well be true - even then why do it on a Saturday when you don't need to.
		
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Not even sure I understand your point.

Perhaps answer these questions, to answer your own :-

1)  how many people are furloughed ? (easy to get actual figures and they are eye watering)
2) How many business owners are not working full time

And how much of the working drinking population is that

I was only highlighting a factor to take into account, which I didn't see anyone had mentioned, and that fact dilutes the Saturday problem a (fair) bit IMHO.

Have fun.


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## Kellfire (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yes. Have you seen the questions that are required to achieve the 'average'? then take note and realise that 50% aren't capable of reaching even that low bar.

And, remember it's a skewed population as many of those who take IQ tests probably think they'll do well (unless it part of a job interview type situation.
		
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Was only pointing out that you said it’s bad that the average is 100 when the average is always 100 in an IQ.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

DRW said:



			Not even sure I understand your point.

Perhaps answer these questions, to answer your own :-

1)  how many people are furloughed ? (easy to get actual figures and they are eye watering)
2) How many business owners are not working full time

And how much of the working drinking population is that

I was only highlighting a factor to take into account, which I didn't see anyone had mentioned, and that fact dilutes the Saturday problem a (fair) bit IMHO.

Have fun.

Click to expand...

I didn't disagree with you.  But I'd think that it matters more to publicans that they open soon - with the precise date to within a few days being less important.  But for public order and 'overcrowding-avoidance' purposes, it is most likely better to open on a weekday and to not make a big event of it.  The pubs just need to reopen so let's do it in the way that minimises risk.


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## drdel (Jun 29, 2020)

Lessons of public logic...
Health Advice 1. - "Smoking is really bad for your lungs and is a major cause of painful lung cancer deaths" 
Public response - millions continue to deliberately purchase tobacco and smoke and blame the makers/sellers!

Health Advice 2. - "Drugs are illegal, addictive and cause major damage to health and wealth" - 
Public response - Millions think its clever and 'in': deliberately pay organised crime for 'product' of unknown origin/purity made by criminal 'factories' while at the same time moaning about food quality standards, sugar and salt levels !

Health Advice 3. - "There is a pandemic which is highly contagious and can kill so you are advised to curtail social interaction"  
Public response - widely ignored by 'protest' organisers and a considerable number of individuals  who will then blame the advisors when it goes pear shaped!

Do we really need to wonder if some people are plain stupid or unbelievably arrogant?


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## drdel (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn't disagree with you.  But I'd think that it matters more to publicans that they open soon - with the precise date to within a few days being less important.  But for public order and 'overcrowding-avoidance' purposes, it is most likely better to open on a weekday and to not make a big event of it.  The pubs just need to reopen so let's do it in the way that minimises risk.
		
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Going to the 'pub' on Saturday is not compulsory !!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Lessons of public logic...
Health Advice 1. - "Smoking is really bad for your lungs and is a major cause of painful lung cancer deaths"
Public response - millions continue to deliberately purchase tobacco and smoke and blame the makers/sellers!

Health Advice 2. - "Drugs are illegal, addictive and cause major damage to health and wealth" -
Public response - Millions think its clever and 'in': deliberately pay organised crime for 'product' of unknown origin/purity made by criminal 'factories' while at the same time moaning about food quality standards, sugar and salt levels !

Health Advice 3. - "There is a pandemic which is highly contagious and can kill so you are advised to curtail social interaction"
Public response - widely ignored by 'protest' organisers and a considerable number of individuals  who will then blame the advisors when it goes pear shaped!

Do we really need to wonder if some people are plain stupid or unbelievably arrogant?
		
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Not even remotely related!!

Smoking: First advertised as cool and good for your health by Doctors and Celebrities, despite the manafacturers knowing is was damaging to health and addictive. - Government make millions in tax from it.

Drugs: Not all drugs are illegal and many addicts end up on drugs after becoming addicted to legally prescribed medication.

Coronavirus: Mixed messages, sanctions, lockdown not tough enough.

All the above under Government control, all Governments(apart from current crisis) have never really wanted to spend the money on sorting out the issues.

Funny how we praise MP’s when things go right, but blame the public when things go wrong.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Lessons of public logic...
Health Advice 1. - "Smoking is really bad for your lungs and is a major cause of painful lung cancer deaths"
Public response - millions continue to deliberately purchase tobacco and smoke and blame the makers/sellers!

Health Advice 2. - "Drugs are illegal, addictive and cause major damage to health and wealth" -
Public response - Millions think its clever and 'in': deliberately pay organised crime for 'product' of unknown origin/purity made by criminal 'factories' while at the same time moaning about food quality standards, sugar and salt levels !

Health Advice 3. - "There is a pandemic which is highly contagious and can kill so you are advised to curtail social interaction" 
Public response - widely ignored by 'protest' organisers and a considerable number of individuals  who will then blame the advisors when it goes pear shaped!

Do we really need to wonder if some people are plain stupid or unbelievably arrogant?
		
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Not sure where to start with those statements regarding blame and the logic and jumps you seem to want to make.


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## GB72 (Jun 29, 2020)

I think that the position now is that, to a large extent, it is over the population as a whole now. The government has flattened the curve and paid out at much as it can afford to retain jobs. Now, people need to work, economies need to open or the impact on the country could be almost as devastating as the virus itself. So, you do not think that people should be out and about, stay at home as much as possible, you do not agree with pubs opening, don't go. Act as you feel you need to to keep yourself and your family safe.

People say that they have no choice in some instances other than to go back to work despite being nervous about doing so and that is something I understand. The trouble is, unless companies can build up sufficient business by October when all support goes, these people will not have a job in any event and even before then, the furlough payments will be shrinking.

It really is an unwinable situation. Yes, i guess in an ideal world you would lock down until the virus has gone or there is a vaccine. That is unrealistic from just about every angle that you can think of. So, people have to be eased back into normal life, people need to be allowed to work and people need to make a living.

I always get the feeling that those that are advocating against any relaxation are those who can afford to sit out the lockdown for as long as it takes. Those struggling either financially or mentally are far more accepting of the changes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Going to the 'pub' on Saturday is not compulsory !!
		
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...I really don't understand why it seems so difficult to accept that reopening pubs on a Saturday is likely to give rise to more issues than were they reopened on a Tuesday.


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## GB72 (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I really don't understand why it seems so difficult to accept that reopening pubs on a Saturday is likely to give rise to more issues than were they reopened on a Tuesday.
		
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All it will do is postpone any perceived difficulties by a few days whilst depriving landlords or another weekend of much needed income. I the grand scheme of things, really does not make much difference to anybody except the publicans desperately in need of income.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Was only pointing out that you said it’s bad that the average is 100 when the average is always 100 in an IQ.
		
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I'm recall a certain Tory education minister saying on t'telly  that he wanted all pupils to be above average.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I think that the position now is that, to a large extent, it is over the population as a whole now. The government has flattened the curve and paid out at much as it can afford to retain jobs. Now, people need to work, economies need to open or the impact on the country could be almost as devastating as the virus itself. So, you do not think that people should be out and about, stay at home as much as possible, you do not agree with pubs opening, don't go. Act as you feel you need to to keep yourself and your family safe.

People say that they have no choice in some instances other than to go back to work despite being nervous about doing so and that is something I understand. The trouble is, unless companies can build up sufficient business by October when all support goes, these people will not have a job in any event and even before then, the furlough payments will be shrinking.

It really is an unwinable situation. Yes, i guess in an ideal world you would lock down until the virus has gone or there is a vaccine. That is unrealistic from just about every angle that you can think of. So, people have to be eased back into normal life, people need to be allowed to work and people need to make a living.

I always get the feeling that those that are advocating against any relaxation are those who can afford to sit out the lockdown for as long as it takes. Those struggling either financially or mentally are far more accepting of the changes.
		
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I think you’ve just about got it spot on, my issue is those continually labelling part of society as stupid or lazy or selfish etc, the coronavirus didn’t create these people they were always there! 

And, imo, knowing part of society has those traits then during this crisis the only people capable of trying to deal with or get through to these people are the Government.

Regardless of what this Government could or should of done you also of gottten those who would of still ignored what the Government set out, so therefore why do we have to keep having a dig at the idiots (who know one will change) and focus on those who have done their bit or accept that it may of been possible to get through to the borderline idiots had the Government tried a different approach in some areas.

Everything is took as anti-government dig rather than people accepting there maybe room for manouvere.

For all my anti-tory beliefs, I’m still firmly of the opinion nobody else in UK Politics would of done a better job.


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## GB72 (Jun 29, 2020)

Not sure if it is the same everywhere, but I would also add that my local pub has had to pass tests and inspections by both the local authority and the brewery to ensure that they have robust practices and procedures in place. It is not as if they are just opening their doors and hoping for the best.


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## bobmac (Jun 29, 2020)

After 3 months off the beer, they'll all be paralytic and asleep by 9 o' clock


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## GB72 (Jun 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			After 3 months off the beer, they'll all be paralytic and asleep by 9 o' clock
		
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Totally the opposite, everything will taste weak compared to the measures I have been pouring at home


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## bobmac (Jun 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Totally the opposite, everything will taste weak compared to the measures I have been pouring at home 

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I'm only going to have one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Totally the opposite, everything will taste weak compared to the measures I have been pouring at home 

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Spanish measures for you as well?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			All it will do is postpone any perceived difficulties by a few days whilst depriving landlords or another weekend of much needed income. I the grand scheme of things, really does not make much difference to anybody except the publicans desperately in need of income.
		
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OK - so when the police have been asked and have expressed concerns and would have preferred another day of the week - then they are wrong...fair enough


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## GB72 (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so when the police have been asked and have expressed concerns and would have preferred another day of the week - then they are wrong...fair enough
		
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Nobody said the first weekend would be easy but I just cannot see how the crowds would be any different this Saturday or the Saturday after. it is not as if people will go out this weekend, think that's me done for a while, and not go out the following week. This is a big step in the return to normality and there are always going to be issues associated with people being allowed to the pub after 3 months at home. Pubs have had time to prepare, authorities have had nearly 2 weeks or warning, time to get on with it. People can prevaricate as much as they like but, at some stage, there will be a first weekend and that will be busy.

I suppose they could have opened the pubs from tomorrow if they wanted a build up but certainly no point delaying beyond 4th July.


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Nobody said the first weekend would be easy but I just cannot see how the crowds would be any different this Saturday or the Saturday after. it is not as if people will go out this weekend, think that's me done for a while, and not go out the following week. This is a big step in the return to normality and there are always going to be issues associated with people being allowed to the pub after 3 months at home. Pubs have had time to prepare, authorities have had nearly 2 weeks or warning, time to get on with it. People can prevaricate as much as they like but, at some stage, there will be a first weekend and that will be busy.

I suppose they could have opened the pubs from tomorrow if they wanted a build up but certainly no point delaying beyond 4th July.
		
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That's why it makes sense to have a 'gentle warm-up' period and, to me, opening from Monday would have been more sensible. There certainly needed to be advance notice to allow owners etc to prepare - get supplies in, let beer settle etc. But I fear opening Saturday, especially in this weather, will encourage the sort of idiocy seen at too many beaches, rallies etc! And the consequence could well be loads of mini-spikes that ruin the, generally, excellent work to date!


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## GB72 (Jun 29, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's why it makes sense to have a 'gentle warm-up' period and, to me, opening from Monday would have been more sensible. There certainly needed to be advance notice to allow owners etc to prepare - get supplies in, let beer settle etc. But I fear opening Saturday, especially in this weather, will encourage the sort of idiocy seen at too many beaches, rallies etc! And the consequence could well be loads of mini-spikes that ruin the, generally, excellent work to date!
		
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I am not sure that, given the option, many pubs would have opened before Friday even if they were given the option from Monday. Most pubs around me are shut on Monday and barely break even for the rest of the week until the weekend. I suspect many pubs would rather leave their staff on furlough for as long as possible and only open at the first weekend whatever day is selected. I think that much of the day will be ideal for testing their practices ready for the rush in the evening.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn't disagree with you.  But I'd think that it matters more to publicans that they open soon - with the precise date to within a few days being less important.  But for public order and 'overcrowding-avoidance' purposes, it is most likely better to open on a weekday and to not make a big event of it.  The pubs just need to reopen so let's do it in the way that minimises risk.
		
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you are completely contradicting yourself now. Either it makes a big difference opening on a Saturday or it makes minimal differnce - you are now hedging your bets. As DRW also siad, it will make virtually no differnce - first day of pubs open for three months on a Saturday, Monday, tuesday etc. Many pubs round here are doing bookings for 2 hour slots and many are already full on Saturday - and the same would have happened next Tuesday. And as for your comments that the government is contradicting itself by saying "get out and spend" with the only go out when necessary - it has evolved! Maybe you noticed on the daily briefings that have now stopped and which you paid particular attention to?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I really don't understand why it seems so difficult to accept that reopening pubs on a Saturday is likely to give rise to more issues than were they reopened on a Tuesday.
		
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as we have said - we disagree and do not think that is the case


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I really don't understand why it seems so difficult to accept that reopening pubs on a Saturday is likely to give rise to more issues than were they reopened on a Tuesday.
		
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What difference will it really make with so many currently off work. But it suits your strange logic to blame the government and you have been blaming governments since you haven’t had your way. You are and have always been part off the real gammon brigade and really need to give rant radio a miss.

What next, blaming the government for the weather, you are all that is wrong with things at the moment, you need spoon feeding everything and seem to have lost the ability to think for yourself, your continued insults of anything or anybody that doesn’t agree with your politics is mind boggling.


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I'm recall a certain Tory education minister saying on t'telly  that he wanted all pupils to be above average.
		
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Was it in response to the poor figures coming out of Scotland in respect of education.


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so when the police have been asked and have expressed concerns and would have preferred another day of the week - then they are wrong...fair enough
		
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If it’s like here, many pubs are staggering opening through the month.


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## Reemul (Jun 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			as we have said - we disagree and do not think that is the case
		
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You can still disagree and be wrong, don't worry about it though, there were half a million people in Dorset last week and they all thought they were correct and were wrong as well.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 29, 2020)

Reemul said:



			You can still disagree and be wrong, don't worry about it though, there were half a million people in Dorset last week and they all thought they were correct and were wrong as well.
		
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Anyone who thinks that 60% capacity pubs that have been closed for 3.5 months would be anything other than at capacity on whatever day they reopen is living on a different planet. And, to prove the point - your half million people in dorset last week were there not on a weekend but wedenesday and thursday - good job it wasn't a saturday hey!


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am not sure that, given the option, many pubs would have opened before Friday even if they were given the option from Monday. Most pubs around me are shut on Monday and barely break even for the rest of the week until the weekend. I suspect many pubs would rather leave their staff on furlough for as long as possible and only open at the first weekend whatever day is selected. I think that much of the day will be ideal for testing their practices ready for the rush in the evening.
		
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Good point but, imo, the emphasis should still be on preventing possible spikes! The week's 'warmup' is ideal for educating both 'regulars' and staff about the 'new' procedures!
Remember...Until there's an effective vaccine, it's up to everybody to prevent transmission!


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I'm recall* a certain Tory education minister saying on t'telly  that he wanted all pupils to be above average.
		
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Do you mean I recall or I'm recalling?


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I'm recall a certain Tory education minister saying on t'telly  that he wanted all pupils to be above average.
		
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Dodgy grammar notwithstanding, I recall that! Gove (SofS for Education at the time) was subsequently appropriately asked (by the Chairman of the Select Committee) 'Were you better at literacy than numeracy, Secretary of State?'! 
Gove is a talented orator, but, imo, has too shallow administrative talents for heavyweight cabinet responsibilities!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 29, 2020)

Leicester is in lockdown https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...-lockdown-after-local-spike-in-cases-12017539


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## larmen (Jun 30, 2020)

Does anybody else feel that the virus is less severe during summer?

What I mean is, they keep testing more people but it feels like a lot of positive tested people have no symptoms and are therefore not feeling ill, or are in any visible danger. Again in Germany in 2 meat processing plants they have 80+ cases in one, 40+ in the other. Of the one with 80 cases  I read that NONE of them did actually show any symptoms.
It could just be bad reporting of symptoms, people say they didn't have any so they could go to work not losing a pay cheque, or the virus is 'fading out'?


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2020)

larmen said:



			Does anybody else feel that the virus is less severe during summer?

What I mean is, they keep testing more people but it feels like a lot of positive tested people have no symptoms and are therefore not feeling ill, or are in any visible danger. Again in Germany in 2 meat processing plants they have 80+ cases in one, 40+ in the other. Of the one with 80 cases  I read that NONE of them did actually show any symptoms.
It could just be bad reporting of symptoms, people say they didn't have any so they could go to work not losing a pay cheque, or the virus is 'fading out'?
		
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There is a body of thought that suggests these viruses do not survive well under the UV and high summer temperatures. Hence the concern that a second wave may hit in the Autumn and may be mistaken for seasonal flu and not be picked up until the infection rate is at dangerous levels.


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## larmen (Jun 30, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Anyone who thinks that 60% capacity pubs that have been closed for 3.5 months would be anything other than at capacity on whatever day they reopen is living on a different planet. And, to prove the point - your half million people in dorset last week were there not on a weekend but wedenesday and thursday - good job it wasn't a saturday hey!
		
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And half a million people at McDonalds on opening day, and in Ikea as well as Primark.

Well, not really half a million, but enough to make it look like a lot more than there should be. A novelty thing, it's freshly open, lets go. They didn't plan to be part of half a million, just 5000,000 having the same idea. Pubs will not be any different. My guess is they might be worse.


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## larmen (Jun 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is a body of thought that suggests these viruses do not survive well under the UV and high summer temperatures. Hence the concern that a second wave may hit in the Autumn and may be mistaken for seasonal flu and not be picked up until the infection rate is at dangerous levels.
		
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Does it affect the R rate as well as the severity? Virus load is low enough so most people can fight it from the outset? Then maybe now would be the time to drive for here immunity? (not really!)


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## GB72 (Jun 30, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Good point but, imo, the emphasis should still be on preventing possible spikes! The week's 'warmup' is ideal for educating both 'regulars' and staff about the 'new' procedures!
Remember...Until there's an effective vaccine, it's up to everybody to prevent transmission!
		
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Staff I agree with. Regulars I am not concerned with, regulars are very protective of their pub and, certainly in my local, would be pulling people up for social distancing breaches. The problems are pubs with less in the way of regulars, larger pubs and town/city centre ones. Guessing they may have to hire security to deal with numbers in and out. 

My opinion is probably a bit out of kilter with some as I tend only to drink in village pubs these days. My biggest problem will be not being able to take my usual seat at the bar.


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## GB72 (Jun 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is a body of thought that suggests these viruses do not survive well under the UV and high summer temperatures. Hence the concern that a second wave may hit in the Autumn and may be mistaken for seasonal flu and not be picked up until the infection rate is at dangerous levels.
		
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Surely, capacity allowing going forward, anyone who goes near a doctor's surgery with a cough is going to get a covid swab up the nostrel


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you mean I recall or I'm recalling?
		
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Awfully sorry old bean, I do hope no other posters were disturbed in any way by my minor typo.
I would like to imagine most were kind and forgiving and would have been sensible enough to pick up the gist of the sentence.


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Surely, capacity allowing going forward, anyone who goes near a doctor's surgery with a cough is going to get a covid swab up the nostrel
		
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Yup. I was thinking that people might just ignore their symptoms as 'normal' flu thereby allowing further infections.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 30, 2020)

larmen said:



			Does anybody else feel that the virus is less severe during summer?

What I mean is, they keep testing more people but it feels like a lot of positive tested people have no symptoms and are therefore not feeling ill, or are in any visible danger. Again in Germany in 2 meat processing plants they have 80+ cases in one, 40+ in the other. Of the one with 80 cases  I read that NONE of them did actually show any symptoms.
It could just be bad reporting of symptoms, people say they didn't have any so they could go to work not losing a pay cheque, or the virus is 'fading out'?
		
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I watched a Panorama programme on Covid last night. A bit woolly but one of the things that stood out was the high proportion of people who test positive showing no symptons at all. They found this was a major contributor to an outbreak in a Somerset hospital. The staff were passing on the virus without realising as they were showing no symptons. It is only when regular testing of NHS staff came in that this was highlighted. They reckoned about half people with it showed no symptons, and so were not isolating. Similar results were found in Germany. It shows why regular testing is so crucial, and not just of people showing symptons. That only catches half of those carrying it.

Regarding the temperatures, the virus is less stable in heat so is not as aggressive. It likes the cold so an abattoir is close to perfect conditions for it, hence the problems in them.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yup. I was thinking that people might just ignore their symptoms as 'normal' flu thereby allowing further infections.
		
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I dont believe I've ever had Flu, I've had plenty of colds but never bad enough to put me in bed.   If I did catch it I would probably think I had Covid now.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Awfully sorry old bean, I do hope no other posters were disturbed in any way by my minor typo.
I would like to imagine most were kind and forgiving and would have been sensible enough to pick up the gist of the sentence.
		
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Oh I did pick up what you meant, and normally I wouldn't bother.   However, given that you were picking up someone on their misuse of language, it seemed only fair to highlight a similar error in yours; showing you the same level of forgiveness that you showed to your victim if you like.


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## DRW (Jun 30, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53237271

Who needs an independence vote  

Still not sure what to do about the Scottish holiday I have booked and a deposit paid, may well try to cancel as cant be arsed with the will it or will it not. Thats better than having to pay the balance now and then losing all the money later. What to do with the castle stuart H4H voucher, wonder if they will roll it over a year or its one long day trip. Oh tossing pancakes  I know Ill goto Wales instead, oh what a minute, blast it I off to Yorkshire


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2020)

Great ambitious words from Johnson for future infrastructure - not sure ow much of it is new though - but nonetheless - it's a bit of a medium to long term plan...

However - infrastructure projects are not going to provide help for possibly millions of pending unemployed who might have no - or at best limited - future in the service/hospitality and performing arts sectors in which they worked before the pandemic.  What are the governments plans for that vast swathe of newly unemployed?   What are the governments plans for re-training/re-skilling?  Because infrastructure build jobs are just not going to be relevant for the skills of the vast majority who are going to become unemployed in the coming 3-6 months. 

Yes - it's great planning for big spending in the medium term when the projects get going - but the immediate short term also needs addressing - and for that I heard nothing from Johnson today other than a hope that these sectors can get up and running fairly soon.    And if they don't?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Great ambitious words from Johnson for future infrastructure - not sure ow much of it is new though - but nonetheless - it's a bit of a medium to long term plan...

However - infrastructure projects are not going to provide help for possibly millions of pending unemployed who might have no - or at best limited - future in the service/hospitality and performing arts sectors in which they worked before the pandemic.  What are the governments plans for that vast swathe of newly unemployed?   What are the governments plans for re-training/re-skilling?  Because infrastructure build jobs are just not going to be relevant for the skills of the vast majority who are going to become unemployed in the coming 3-6 months.

Yes - it's great planning for big spending in the medium term when the projects get going - but the immediate short term also needs addressing - and for that I heard nothing from Johnson today other than a hope that these sectors can get up and running fairly soon.    And if they don't?
		
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And what do you think he should do for them?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Oh I did pick up what you meant, and normally I wouldn't bother.   However, given that you were picking up someone on their misuse of language, it seemed only fair to highlight a similar error in yours; showing you the same level of forgiveness that you showed to your victim if you like.    

Click to expand...

OK just to say that in future I shall  be watching all of your posts very carefully for any typos and miss spelling


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Great ambitious words from Johnson for future infrastructure - not sure ow much of it is new though - but nonetheless - it's a bit of a medium to long term plan...

However - infrastructure projects are not going to provide help for possibly millions of pending unemployed who might have no - or at best limited - future in the service/hospitality and performing arts sectors in which they worked before the pandemic.  What are the governments plans for that vast swathe of newly unemployed?   What are the governments plans for re-training/re-skilling?  Because infrastructure build jobs are just not going to be relevant for the skills of the vast majority who are going to become unemployed in the coming 3-6 months.

Yes - it's great planning for big spending in the medium term when the projects get going - but the immediate short term also needs addressing - and for that I heard nothing from Johnson today other than a hope that these sectors can get up and running fairly soon.    And if they don't?
		
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Investing now when interest rates are low is exactly the correct approach. The majority of the spend is long term.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 30, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53237271

Who needs an independence vote 

Still not sure what to do about the Scottish holiday I have booked and a deposit paid, may well try to cancel as cant be arsed with the will it or will it not. Thats better than having to pay the balance now and then losing all the money later. What to do with the castle stuart H4H voucher, wonder if they will roll it over a year or its one long day trip. Oh tossing pancakes  I know Ill goto Wales instead, oh what a minute, blast it I off to Yorkshire

Click to expand...

They talked about this on J.Vine today on R2. Whilst Scotland have figures marginally better than England they are still worse than Italy, in terms of proportions / population etc. They are Bournemouth compared to England being Norwich . Neither country have anything to boast about and the idea of one quarantining the other is political posturing at its worst. I guess it will play well to the SNP core vote


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53237271

Who needs an independence vote 

Still not sure what to do about the Scottish holiday I have booked and a deposit paid, may well try to cancel as cant be arsed with the will it or will it not. Thats better than having to pay the balance now and then losing all the money later. What to do with the castle stuart H4H voucher, wonder if they will roll it over a year or its one long day trip. Oh tossing pancakes  I know Ill goto Wales instead, oh what a minute, blast it I off to Yorkshire

Click to expand...

The agenda seems to be driven by the Scots public ATM and not the Scottish Gov.
I'm was speaking to a neighbour who has three holiday homes in the village, he said that he would not think of opening them in the current circumstances.

We also have a Scots Brit Nat faction who say they will be ignoring Scot Gov advice and following their darling Boris.
Thankfully there is not many of them.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The agenda seems to be driven by the Scots public ATM and not the Scottish Gov.
I'm was speaking to a neighbour who has three holiday homes in the village, he said that he would not think of opening them in the current circumstances.

We also have a Scots Brit Nat faction who say they will be ignoring Scot Gov advice and following their darling Boris.
Thankfully there is not many of them. 

Click to expand...

Sounds like your neighbour is English, thrown out some crofters from their cottages and is renting them out to Sassenach holidaymakers 😍


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## DanFST (Jun 30, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53237271

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*"Anyone who is trotting out constitutional arguments is in the wrong place"*

Not sure how I feel about that...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2020)

DanFST said:



*"Anyone who is trotting out constitutional arguments is in the wrong place"*

Not sure how I feel about that...
		
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Hope Scotland isnt relying on anything from England if she does.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 1, 2020)

So the US government have bought up the entire world stock of Remdesiver, the only currently liscensed anti viral, who'd have seen that one coming 🤔


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## Hobbit (Jul 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



*"Anyone who is trotting out constitutional arguments is in the wrong place"*

Not sure how I feel about that...
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Hope Scotland isnt relying on anything from England if she does.
		
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So its ok to quarantine Leicester but not Scotland? Whilst she might be viewed with scepticism, is she wrong in terms of managing Scotland's response to the virus?


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## DRW (Jul 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So its ok to quarantine Leicester but not Scotland? Whilst she might be viewed with scepticism, is she wrong in terms of managing Scotland's response to the virus?
		
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I think neither of those posts read like that to me or is inferring your point, but maybe I am reading them wrong.  Anyway I will have a go at the direction I look at that situation.

Scotlands actual results are still pants, fact, sadly. So lets not think Scotland like Spain, have done a good job, as they have been pants along with England and Wales, none are a New Zealand, and people have paid that price 


Its an interesting issue, however for me, I do not like the 'keep the outsiders out' outlook that your comment breeds. We are all one country ( the 4 of us, in my eyes) and therefore as public we should be free to roam that country, within reason.

I do however  agree that a local lockdown is great at trying to stop a hotspot spreading to other areas.  (to look at it from my direction, England as a whole is not as such a hotspot anymore, like Scotland, so I disagree with the outlook that England needs to be locked out of Scotland(Edit or say Shropshire from Herefordshire), in lets call it a local lockdown attitude)

So I am in favour of, stopping the spread of the virus from smaller areas, but not the lock out of massive areas that are not hot stops, to possibly stop the spread. As you can not get the virus from someone who is not infected.

Whereas a 'keep the outsiders out' attitude and what that breeds is something I really dislike.  The keep people out is just in case they are infected, is a direction of action I do not like and should only be done in certain cases (ie. as a nation like New Zealand has or on local basis due to flare ups).

This virus is not going away(unless a 100% vaccine comes along, which is questionable) and we therefore need to bring in sensible policies that protect peoples freedoms and also allow businesses to trade. As someone who is retired, you may well be more worried about dying from the virus, so stopping the cirus is higher up your agenda and we all have agendas whether we like to believe it or not.

I appreciate the other way of looking at it, is how you have posted and both have merits but what that breeds and restrictions of peoples freedoms I really do not like.

Hopefully you can see the direction I am coming from, slightly different outlook/angle.


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## DanFST (Jul 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So its ok to quarantine Leicester but not Scotland? Whilst she might be viewed with scepticism, is she wrong in terms of managing Scotland's response to the virus?
		
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It's completely different, people are being "quarantined" *in* Leicester. To stop spread out of it. constitutionally it's still merky. Scotland has had 3 deaths in 5 days. She wants to keep the English out. 

There's 100's of international flights going in and out of Edinburgh and Glasgow today, gonna stop those too?

That comment is flagrant political willy waving, provocative and not to mention completely unenforceable.


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## drdel (Jul 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So its ok to quarantine Leicester but not Scotland? Whilst she might be viewed with scepticism, is she wrong in terms of managing Scotland's response to the virus?
		
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Medically based would be OK. Political games not so?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So its ok to quarantine Leicester but not Scotland? Whilst she might be viewed with scepticism, is she wrong in terms of managing Scotland's response to the virus?
		
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Leicester isnt stopping people from outside the city coming into it or passing through it. What about people who live near the border, should they be locked out and would she shut down International flights. Its anti English willy waving.


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## Kaz (Jul 1, 2020)

It’s hypothetical and very unlikely to happen but seems common sense that, say, in a scenario where Scotland virtually eliminated the virus while it ran uncontrolled in England it should be possible to restrict non-essential travel between the two.

Clearly nobody would want that but all NS said, in response to the question, was that she wasn’t ruling anything out. What an outrage!!! 

And, hypothetically again, if it was the other way round I’d expect the same to apply.

Utter nonsense to suggest there’s anything anti-English about it.


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## Slab (Jul 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It's completely different, people are being "quarantined" *in* Leicester. To stop spread out of it. constitutionally it's still merky. Scotland has had 3 deaths in 5 days. *She wants to keep the English out.*

There's 100's of international flights going in and out of Edinburgh and Glasgow today, gonna stop those too?

That comment is flagrant political willy waving, provocative and not to mention completely unenforceable.
		
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I cant see that. The article reports she says she has no plans for a quarantine for visitors from other parts of the UK (with a 'never say never' added which I guess is only prudent because there's no guarantees in life)

The report doesn't mention English people at all and even if you are inclined to add a spin to suggest she does want a cross border quarantine, when the article doesn't actually say that, then it would be a quarantine for people coming from England, not a quarantine for English people. Nationality doesn't enter into it, its visitors originating from a country

Granted most people in England are English but the virus doesn't care


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It’s hypothetical and very unlikely to happen but seems common sense that, say, in a scenario where Scotland virtually eliminated the virus while it ran uncontrolled in England it should be possible to restrict non-essential travel between the two.

Clearly nobody would want that but all NS said, in response to the question, was that she wasn’t ruling anything out. What an outrage!!! 

And, hypothetically again, if it was the other way round I’d expect the same to apply.

Utter nonsense to suggest there’s anything anti-English about it.
		
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Slab said:



			I cant see that. The article reports she says she has no plans for a quarantine for visitors from other parts of the UK (with a 'never say never' added which I guess is only prudent because there's no guarantees in life)

The report doesn't mention English people at all and even if you are inclined to add a spin to suggest she does want a cross border quarantine, when the article doesn't actually say that, then it would be a quarantine for people coming from England, not a quarantine for English people. Nationality doesn't enter into it, its visitors originating from a country

Granted most people in England are English but the virus doesn't care
		
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Keep your sensible posts out of this please!  It’s too good an opportunity to have a dig at NS, the Scottish and Doon.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It’s hypothetical and very unlikely to happen but seems common sense that, say, in a scenario where Scotland virtually eliminated the virus while it ran uncontrolled in England it should be possible to restrict non-essential travel between the two.

Clearly nobody would want that but all NS said, in response to the question, was that she wasn’t ruling anything out. What an outrage!!! 

And, hypothetically again, if it was the other way round I’d expect the same to apply.

Utter nonsense to suggest there’s anything anti-English about it.
		
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We are now at the point where the virus is occurring in a regional way, not national. Northumberland has very few cases, Gateshead, Sunderland and Middlesbrough has spikes. Regional lockdowns are the way forward now, not blunt national ones, and i am sure NS knows this. NS knew exactly what she was saying, who she was saying it too and the implications of it. She is a very long way from being naive and to answer the question how she did and expect it not be taken how it has would need her to be very politically naive.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It’s hypothetical and very unlikely to happen but seems common sense that, say, in a scenario where Scotland virtually eliminated the virus while it ran uncontrolled in England it should be possible to restrict non-essential travel between the two.

Clearly nobody would want that but all NS said, in response to the question, was that she wasn’t ruling anything out. What an outrage!!! 

And, hypothetically again, if it was the other way round I’d expect the same to apply.

Utter nonsense to suggest there’s anything anti-English about it.
		
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As one who is often critical of Nicola Sturgeon I must say that, in this instance,  I cannot see anything either wrong or anti-English in her comments.

Eminently sensible to keep all options open when dealing with a pandemic whilst not making  any knee jerk reactions. 

Still, reporting it in this manner probably plays well with Daily Mail readers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We are now at the point where the virus is occurring in a regional way, not national. Northumberland has very few cases, Gateshead, Sunderland and Middlesbrough has spikes. Regional lockdowns are the way forward now, not blunt national ones, and i am sure NS knows this. NS knew exactly what she was saying, who she was saying it too and the implications of it. She is a very long way from being naive and to answer the question how she did and expect it not be taken how it has would need her to be very politically naive.
		
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Dumfries and Galloway Council [D&G] is huge.
It's southern boundary is about 100 miles long.
Alongside with Borders Council it has a very sparse population not sure how a regional lockdown would work for them without closing the border with England.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Dumfries and Galloway Council [D&G] is huge.
It's southern boundary is about 100 miles long.
Alongside with Borders Council it has a very sparse population not sure how a regional lockdown would work for them without closing the border with England.

Click to expand...

Do you think there are going to be guards and fences surrounding Leicester? Do you see a genuine border between Scotland and England right now, with officials, buildings, barriers etc?

Lockdowns from day 1 have relied on compliance and then enforcement where necessary. This is no different.


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## DanFST (Jul 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It’s hypothetical and very unlikely to happen but seems common sense that, say, in a scenario where Scotland virtually eliminated the virus while it ran uncontrolled in England it should be possible to restrict non-essential travel between the two.

Clearly nobody would want that but all NS said, in response to the question, was that she wasn’t ruling anything out. What an outrage!!! 

And, hypothetically again, if it was the other way round I’d expect the same to apply.

Utter nonsense to suggest there’s anything anti-English about it.
		
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You know my views on NS, however one thing I will never accuse her of is being naive or unintelligent.

Yes you can take the article at face value, but she knows what she's doing. Look at how it's been reported, you think that's a surprise to her? Even the New Scientist are posting absolute tripe. read the last line!

My original quote coupled with " I would really welcome a statement from the Prime Minister that England's strategy was about trying to eliminate the virus as well" shows her intent.


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## drdel (Jul 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			You know my views on NS, however one thing I will never accuse her of is being naive or unintelligent.

Yes you can take the article at face value, but she knows what she's doing. Look at how it's been reported, you think that's a surprise to her? Even the New Scientist are posting absolute tripe. read the last line!

My original quote coupled with " I would really welcome a statement from the Prime Minister that England's strategy was about trying to eliminate the virus as well" shows her intent.
		
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Any strategy that aims to eradicate this virus is simplistic. It is within society across the world . We 'may' get a vaccine that enables it to be controlled, but eliminated no.


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## pendodave (Jul 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			Any strategy that aims to eradicate this virus is simplistic. It is within society across the world . We 'may' get a vaccine that enables it to be controlled, but eliminated no.
		
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Lol. If I was one of the many other preventable causes of death that killed far more Scots than covid I'd be quite relieved she's looking the other way...
Such a ridiculous statement. We're already seeing the profound and long lasting consequences of our actions. They will kill and impoverish millions long after everyone she's 'saving' are distant memories.


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## patricks148 (Jul 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They talked about this on J.Vine today on R2. Whilst Scotland have figures marginally better than England they are still worse than Italy, in terms of proportions / population etc. They are Bournemouth compared to England being Norwich . Neither country have anything to boast about and the idea of one quarantining the other is political posturing at its worst. I guess it will play well to the SNP core vote 

Click to expand...

 Up here we have had no cases for weeks and have on the whole avoided the virus. The Hosp in Inverness hasn't had many cases  at all. 

i can see that if a all a sudden thousands turn up here it woudln't take long to spread and the NHS don't have much capacity, esp some of the more remote area's and the islands. our economy up here is largely reliant on toursim, but i'm not sure anyone wants to risk it running though the local population


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 1, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Up here we have had no cases for weeks and have on the whole avoided the virus. The Hosp in Inverness hasn't had many cases  at all.

i can see that if a all a sudden thousands turn up here it woudln't take long to spread and the NHS don't have much capacity, esp some of the more remote area's and the islands. our economy up here is largely reliant on toursim, but i'm not sure anyone wants to risk it running though the local population
		
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I think that is very similar to places like the Lake District, Peak District, here in Northumberland. Those areas have largely escaped it, why would any of us in those places want an influx right now?


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## Slab (Jul 1, 2020)

drdel said:



*Any strategy that aims to eradicate this virus is simplistic. It is within society across the world* . We 'may' get a vaccine that enables it to be controlled, but eliminated no.
		
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Agreed that eradication on a global scale without a cheap vaccine is never going to happen but neither the PM nor the FM are attempting to eradicate on a global scale, they are just dealing with their own countries so I think elimination or full eradication are doable with the correct strategy


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## MegaSteve (Jul 1, 2020)

A friend lives in very rural part of Wales... Not been allowed to travel more than five miles [which doesn't even get him into his local town]… A real pain, he advises, but a whole lot better than dealing with an outbreak... Think he's willing rather than being happy for the restriction of visiting to stay in place for a while yet...


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## DRW (Jul 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The agenda seems to be driven by the Scots public ATM and not the Scottish Gov.
I'm was speaking to a neighbour who has three holiday homes in the village, he said that he would not think of opening them in the current circumstances.

We also have a Scots Brit Nat faction who say they will be ignoring Scot Gov advice and following their darling Boris.
Thankfully there is not many of them. 

Click to expand...

Can not be part of the uncertainly aspect. One thing I do not like, people and business do not like is uncertainly, it stops spending and investment, uncertainty is fine if you are rich or retired on a pension but not good for the economy.

We have taken the decision to cancel the booking. Hope the owners manage to rebook it. The tourist industry and other businesses are paying a heavy price, for such talk by the FM.

Will have to make a dash upto Castle Stuart/Blarigrowie to use the H4H vouchers and dash back or maybe an overnight stay in a tent or vehicle. Wont be spending almost any money in the area as a result, which is a shame for the people who need to earn money from tourism.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think that is very similar to places like the Lake District, Peak District, here in *Northumberland*. Those areas have largely escaped it, why would any of us in those places want an influx right now?
		
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Hey, I've just booked a break in Beadnell with the intention of getting a round in at Bamburgh Castle so you best be open for business.   May also pop in to Barnard Castle on the way up to check my eye sight if the opticians have not opened by then.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey, I've just booked a break in Beadnell with the intention of getting a round in at Bamburgh Castle so you best be open for business.   May also pop in to Barnard Castle on the way up to check my eye sight if the opticians have not opened by then.
		
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We are pretty clear up here, have been throughout. There are pockets but those are in some of the built up areas you would not go to anyway, Ashington & Blyth for example. We have so many miles of beaches that you will have no problem walking on them and keeping away from people. 

I'm guessing you will have played Bamburgh before. Alnmouth (Foxton) would be another one to put on your list if you are looking for another place to play.

I'd give Barnard a miss. Attracts the wrong types


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## Kaz (Jul 1, 2020)

Opening too quickly down south?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278432228788314112


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## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd give Barnard a miss. Attracts the wrong types 

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Could be it attracts the same kind of people


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			Can not be part of the uncertainly aspect. One thing I do not like, people and business do not like is uncertainly, it stops spending and investment, uncertainty is fine if you are rich or retired on a pension but not good for the economy.

We have taken the decision to cancel the booking. Hope the owners manage to rebook it. The tourist industry and other businesses are paying a heavy price, for such talk by the FM.

Will have to make a dash upto Castle Stuart/Blarigrowie to use the H4H vouchers and dash back or maybe an overnight stay in a tent or vehicle. Wont be spending almost any money in the area as a result, which is a shame for the people who need to earn money from tourism.

Click to expand...

Are you aware that there is currently a 5 mile restriction on non essential travel in Scotland.
Expensive trip if you are stopped and turned back on route.
Did you read Patrick's post.


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## DRW (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you aware that there is currently a 5 mile restriction on non essential travel in Scotland.
Expensive trip if you are stopped and turned back on route.
Did you read Patrick's post.

Click to expand...

Did you read my post without putting a twist to fit your agenda, where have I said I am driving up now or my holiday was now or under the current restrictions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2020)

Big headed ill prepared arrogant amateur v Pro.
There would always be one result in that contest. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...nd-england/ar-BB16f3QW?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			Did you read my post without putting a twist to fit your agenda, where have I said I am driving up now or my holiday was now or under the current restrictions.

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Where did you say you were not 
I was just trying to give you some friendly useful advice that may have saved you some wasted time and cash.You seemed to be unaware of the 5 mile limit.


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## DRW (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Where did you say you were not 
I was just trying to give you some friendly useful advice that may have saved you some wasted time and cash.You seemed to be unaware of the 5 mile limit.
		
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Not sure how you think I am unaware of the 5 mile limit ?


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## DRW (Jul 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Opening too quickly down south?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278432228788314112

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I think that outlook is not quite right, thats the opening up to quickly, look at Wales for example for the opposite and they haven't opened up as such, look at Devon, look at massive parts of England.

I fear we are losing context and our ability to assess risk and the effects of the above kind of articles/thinking.

As an example:-

Shropshire is 32nd on the list of areas in England(out of 150 I think), so pretty bad on that map and has just under 14 cases per 100,000.

That is 1 in 7,143 people, I would need to get up close and personal with every golf member in something like 10-12 golf clubs, to meet one person.

Okay lets quad it to make it a lot worse and read a lot worse than reality (for undetected and 2 week infectious period) it so 1 in 1785. I would need to get up close and personal with every golf member in a golf club in something like 3-4 golf clubs.

edit All fairly remote, so it needs to be track & trace, then people need to self isolate but the risk is fairly low of meeting someone and then catching it and then dying from it.

As a comparison:-

Think of how many people are going to die from cancer, as they have not been picked up early. I know plenty of people who have had it picked up early and survived due to early action. In April alone there was 120,000 less cancer referrals. Frightening figures for one month(will have to found out normal cancer rates detected from referrals)
Think of the million plus jobs that are going and going quickly, that will push people into poverty
Think of the million(s) that will be pushed into poverty due to earning less
Whereas if you are under 50, the chances of you catching it and then dying from it are really really low (or even 50-60 is low) [don't get me wrong, I don't want to catch and take the risk....)


We need to look at the big picture now and balance all these risks and bring policies into play. This story has only just started, unless a vaccine comes along and even then the story with regards to economic situation is bad.

Hopefully that makes sense.


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## chrisd (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Big headed ill prepared arrogant amateur v Pro.
There would always be one result in that contest. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...nd-england/ar-BB16f3QW?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds

Click to expand...

Totally agree - Boris wins hands down!


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2020)

I was speaking to one of my colleague in Texas yesterday that has had a big rise in infections.  And he said it was mostly down to them reopening mostly everything at the start of June and then people kind of going back to 'normal' before Covid came along. in his opinion they opened too early as the politics kicked in. And they hadn't reached previously stated targets to trigger reopening, the politicians were more reacting to public opinion than following the science (sounds familiar?)

He said now there is a large increasing in young people getting it, essentially the people who are a lot more out and about and going to bars, restaurants etc.  Obviously it is very hot in Texas at this time of year which puts pay to the suggestion it goes away in hot weather.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I think that outlook is not quite right, thats the opening up to quickly, look at Wales for example for the opposite and they haven't opened up as such, look at Devon, look at massive parts of England.

I fear we are losing context and our ability to assess risk and the effects of the above kind of articles/thinking.

As an example:-

Shropshire is 32nd on the list of areas in England(out of 150 I think), so pretty bad on that map and has just under 14 cases per 100,000.

That is 1 in 7,143 people, I would need to get up close and personal with every golf member in something like 10-12 golf clubs, to meet one person.

Okay lets quad it to make it a lot worse and read a lot worse than reality (for undetected and 2 week infectious period) it so 1 in 1785. I would need to get up close and personal with every golf member in a golf club in something like 3-4 golf clubs.

edit All fairly remote, so it needs to be track & trace, then people need to self isolate but the risk is fairly low of meeting someone and then catching it and then dying from it.

As a comparison:-

Think of how many people are going to die from cancer, as they have not been picked up early. I know plenty of people who have had it picked up early and survived due to early action. In April alone there was 120,000 less cancer referrals. Frightening figures for one month(will have to found out normal cancer rates detected from referrals)
Think of the million plus jobs that are going and going quickly, that will push people into poverty
Think of the million(s) that will be pushed into poverty due to earning less
Whereas if you are under 50, the chances of you catching it and then dying from it are really really low (or even 50-60 is low) [don't get me wrong, I don't want to catch and take the risk....)


We need to look at the big picture now and balance all these risks and bring policies into play. This story has only just started, unless a vaccine comes along and even then the story with regards to economic situation is bad.

Hopefully that makes sense.
		
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agree totally. We simply cannot delay opening up as the economy and the knoock-on effects to our personal lives will be much more damaging than the current COVID situation. We need to get going with the next phase of normal and implement local targetted lockdowns where necessary. This will be with us well into next year and we need to start producing economic growth or there will be austerity from next year on a scale that we have never seen before.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 2, 2020)

In some way I actually admire the balls out approach of the Boris by not even pretending that the rules apply to everyone.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278614101850312705


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## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Big headed ill prepared arrogant amateur v Pro.
There would always be one result in that contest. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...nd-england/ar-BB16f3QW?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds

Click to expand...

it was obvious he was taking about a physical border and anyone with half a brain would understand that, what’s this about having your own money, when did that happen. As to the other claims, the lord gives and the lord can take away if necessary.


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## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			In some way I actually admire the balls out approach of the Boris by not even pretending that the rules apply to everyone. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278614101850312705

Click to expand...

Be great if the Greeks send him back


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## Kaz (Jul 2, 2020)

It’s massively difficult whichever way you try and navigate it. But it seems to me that there’s no sustainable economic recovery without controlling the virus. We ignored the warnings from wuhan and Italy at the start and I fear we are ignoring the warnings from USA now.

As always, I am a pessimist so do tend to fear the worst. Hope I’m wrong.


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## pendodave (Jul 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I think that outlook is not quite right, thats the opening up to quickly, look at Wales for example for the opposite and they haven't opened up as such, look at Devon, look at massive parts of England.

I fear we are losing context and our ability to assess risk and the effects of the above kind of articles/thinking.

As an example:-

Shropshire is 32nd on the list of areas in England(out of 150 I think), so pretty bad on that map and has just under 14 cases per 100,000.

That is 1 in 7,143 people, I would need to get up close and personal with every golf member in something like 10-12 golf clubs, to meet one person.

Okay lets quad it to make it a lot worse and read a lot worse than reality (for undetected and 2 week infectious period) it so 1 in 1785. I would need to get up close and personal with every golf member in a golf club in something like 3-4 golf clubs.

edit All fairly remote, so it needs to be track & trace, then people need to self isolate but the risk is fairly low of meeting someone and then catching it and then dying from it.

As a comparison:-

Think of how many people are going to die from cancer, as they have not been picked up early. I know plenty of people who have had it picked up early and survived due to early action. In April alone there was 120,000 less cancer referrals. Frightening figures for one month(will have to found out normal cancer rates detected from referrals)
Think of the million plus jobs that are going and going quickly, that will push people into poverty
Think of the million(s) that will be pushed into poverty due to earning less
Whereas if you are under 50, the chances of you catching it and then dying from it are really really low (or even 50-60 is low) [don't get me wrong, I don't want to catch and take the risk....)


We need to look at the big picture now and balance all these risks and bring policies into play. This story has only just started, unless a vaccine comes along and even then the story with regards to economic situation is bad.

Hopefully that makes sense.
		
Click to expand...

 You're right, but tragically it was also right 3 months ago. And equally obvious, sadly. Reason went out the window and no-one has seen it since.


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## DRW (Jul 2, 2020)

pendodave said:



			You're right, but tragically it was also right 3 months ago. And equally obvious, sadly. Reason went out the window and no-one has seen it since.
		
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I personally wouldn't quite go as far as agree with that and say we didn't need some kind of lockdown 3 months ago. We could have tried to contained the spread much earlier, when I think back to the March budget and what was happening etc, I was like WTF the virus is riping though and they are having a laugh. Personally I think we should have locked down the country much much earlier and as people returned then locked them in hotels or like and policed it.(I suppose like New Zealand done but on a much bigger scale, who knows if that would have worked here. I'm not 100% convinced as we have to many fingers all over the place). We could then have opened up earlier.

History will certainly be an interesting read in years to come and opinions will evolve.  I know I have read quite a few write ups over lockdowns and how ineffective they have been to contain the virus and that the virus spread is more a reflection on the underlying society and how they live their lifes and if caught early to contain.

I do worry over indoor spaces opening back up with pubs etc and the 1m plus. Hope I am worrying needlessly and would be really happy to be proved wrong, like I was wrong in the main with shops reopening, no second wave as yet, in fact cases continue to drop, Happy days.


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## DanFST (Jul 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I personally wouldn't quite go as far as agree with that and say we didn't need some kind of lockdown 3 months ago.
		
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I think the problem 3 months ago was it was so unkown. Treatment and testing has got better, we understand how the virus works better. 

The problem with NZ (I agree I don't think it would have worked here), until there's a vaccine, they can't open up borders. Which just wouldn't work for our economy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2020)

Rees Mogg telling absolute lies in the HoC whilst attacking Nicola Sturgeon.
What a low life, joining Johnson in a desperate attempt to make political advantage out of a medical pandemic.

They are not even savvy enough to realise that virtually every time they open their mouths they add thousands of additional votes to the independence movement.


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## rulefan (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They are not even savvy enough to realise that virtually every time they open their mouths they add thousands of additional votes to the independence movement.
		
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Is that a bad idea


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## PNWokingham (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Rees Mogg telling absolute lies in the HoC whilst attacking Nicola Sturgeon.
What a low life, joining Johnson in a desperate attempt to make political advantage out of a medical pandemic.

They are not even savvy enough to realise that virtually every time they open their mouths they add thousands of additional votes to the independence movement.
		
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i didn't see or hear it so please share with us what lies he was spouting?


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i didn't see or hear it so please share with us what lies he was spouting?
		
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He said Sturgeon wishes to build a metaphorical wall between England and Scotland. and compared her to another world leader who wishes to build a wall. He also (semi) quoted the PM, who said there is no border between England and Scotland.

Personally, I don't have a problem with her comments that suggested putting up travel restrictions across the border. We had weeks and weeks of it here, and from looking like the virus was running away rampant it slowed to a very decent level has been below 30k for several weeks. Crossing regional borders was stopped completely, and travelling between towns risked a fine. And what is the number in the UK now?

Forget the politics and the willy waving. If it saves lives, however unpalatable it might be politically, it should be done.

As for Mogg's flowery language, what a complete tool of a politician. He's another John Berscow, liking the sound of his own grandiose posturing for his fan base rather than adding anything positive to a difficult debate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i didn't see or hear it so please share with us what lies he was spouting?
		
Click to expand...

Likened her to Trump with building a wall.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Is that a bad idea 

Click to expand...

No, it is clearly working as the polls show.
Just showing how dense he is.


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## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Likened her to Trump with building a wall.
		
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I thought that was an English idea a while back  On a serious note, how could it be policed


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## Kaz (Jul 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I thought that was an English idea a while back  On a serious note, how could it be policed
		
Click to expand...

No, it was your Italian overlords.


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## DanFST (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, it is clearly working as the polls show.
Just showing how dense he is.
		
Click to expand...


The irony is outstanding. Kudos.


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## road2ruin (Jul 3, 2020)

Article by Toby Young (Spectator) with his views on the Leicester lockdown 

https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/06/30/latest-news-64/


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Article by Toby Young (Spectator) with his views on the Leicester lockdown

https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/06/30/latest-news-64/

Click to expand...

Has the last bastion of free speech proclaimed on this matter.  Let me guess, it's a travesty, against our freedom and liberty, it's mostly impacting the poor anyway so why should we care, we didn't defeat the Germans in WW2 to have to wear face masks and be prevented from going to Wetherspoons at lunchtime for a pint of cheap ale that is hours away from exceeding its sell by date.


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## road2ruin (Jul 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Has the last bastion of free speech proclaimed on this matter.  Let me guess, it's a travesty, against our freedom and liberty, it's mostly impacting the poor anyway so why should we care, we didn't defeat the Germans in WW2 to have to wear face masks and be prevented from going to Wetherspoons at lunchtime for a pint of cheap ale that is hours away from exceeding its sell by date.
		
Click to expand...

No, not really, it just givens an alternative viewpoint. One that suggests that the lockdown is a disproportionate response given the numbers and the likely number of lives saved (based on numbers) just doesn’t stack up with the impact it’ll have on those least at risk.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2020)

Bullet point #1 in government coronavirus website is still ‘stay at home as much as possible’.  And I 100% understand that.

But why is that piece of advice still there - and #1 piece of advice at that - given all the relaxation measures currently applied.

Now I know I am easily confused but I _am_ confused by the contradiction it clearly gives rise to as surely it conflicts completely with a lot of what the government tells me I can do today - even more so from the tomorrow.

I can’t go to the pub and go non-essential shopping _and _stay at home as much as possible as I don’t _need_ to do either of the former.


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bullet point #1 in government coronavirus website is still ‘stay at home as much as possible’.  And I 100% understand that.

But why is that piece of advice still there - and #1 piece of advice at that - given all the relaxation measures currently applied.

Now I know I am easily confused but I _am_ confused by the contradiction it clearly gives rise to as surely it conflicts completely with a lot of what the government tells me I can do today - even more so from the tomorrow.

I can’t go to the pub and shopping _and _stay at home as much as possible as I don’t _need_ to do either of the former.
		
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Your outdoing yourself or have completely lost your ability to use common sense. Your like the landlord complaining that the government have allowed pubs to open “FROM” 4 July. It’s not compulsory.


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			No, it was your Italian overlords.
		
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Not mine, Wales was relatively free of pizza and pasta until now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your outdoing yourself or have completely lost your ability to use common sense. Your like the landlord complaining that the government have allowed pubs to open “FROM” 4 July. It’s not compulsory.
		
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No - I am looking at the government website and that tells me up front that I should stay at home *as much as possible. *

There is much I can do today that the government tells me I can do that is not essential and therefore is not following guideline #1 on the govs coronavirus guidelines Website.

But what a surprise - usual suspects choose to fail to see the contradiction in what the government is telling us and rationalise it away as this government does no wrong - well actually they don’t - rather choosing to attack the messenger.  Let’s see if it’s still there tomorrow.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			No, not really, it just givens an alternative viewpoint. One that suggests that the lockdown is a disproportionate response given the numbers and the likely number of lives saved* (based on numbers)* just doesn’t stack up with the impact it’ll have on those least at risk.
		
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Based on his interpretation of the no doubt selective statistics and sources he has chosen to use.  And I'm not saying he is the only one using selective stats as everyone does it to prove a point.  However in this case, as the government set the rules then the decision is based on the stats they use.


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - I am looking at the government website that tells me up front that I should stay at home *as much as possible. *

There is much I can do today that the government tells me I can do that is not essential and therefore is not following guideline #1 on the govs coronavirus guidelines Website.

But what a surprise - usual suspects choose to fail to see the contradiction in what the government is telling us and rationalise it away as this government does no wrong - well actually they don’t - rather choosing to attack the messenger.  Let’s see if it’s still there tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

Usal suspect shows a complete absence of the ability to think for themselves. I f you feel the need to shop, go shopping, if you fancy a pint, go for a pint, if you want to go for a walk, go for a walk, if you want to stay at home and listen to rant radio, stay at home. Do you also need spoon feeding when you eat.


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## Backache (Jul 3, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			No, not really, it just givens an alternative viewpoint. One that suggests that the lockdown is a disproportionate response given the numbers and the likely number of lives saved (based on numbers) just doesn’t stack up with the impact it’ll have on those least at risk.
		
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It's a piece that appears to be based on the faulty logic that the purpose of a lockdown is to save the lives of those who are infected. Rather than what it is for which is to prevent further infections.


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## drdel (Jul 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bullet point #1 in government coronavirus website is still ‘stay at home as much as possible’.  And I 100% understand that.

But why is that piece of advice still there - and #1 piece of advice at that - given all the relaxation measures currently applied.

Now I know I am easily confused but I _am_ confused by the contradiction it clearly gives rise to as surely it conflicts completely with a lot of what the government tells me I can do today - even more so from the tomorrow.

I can’t go to the pub and go non-essential shopping _and _stay at home as much as possible as I don’t _need_ to do either of the former.
		
Click to expand...

Surely you can see the need to prioritise.

The advice is still to stay at home. However where you have a need to venture out then you can if you follow the Covid advice on SD, face masks etc to businesses that are Covid compliant.

Containment is still needed.


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## Slab (Jul 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bullet point #1 in government coronavirus website is still ‘stay at home as much as possible’. And I 100% understand that.
		
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You can't say you 100% understand it then write about how you don't understand it 

Each winter when met office/ council/gov tell you to stay at home as much as possible after snowfall (or words meaning that exact thing) what do you then do when considering each excursion you could make? 

Just do that same logic


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## bobmac (Jul 3, 2020)

Be careful what you wish for


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## Hobbit (Jul 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - I am looking at the government website and that tells me up front that I should stay at home *as much as possible. *

There is much I can do today that the government tells me I can do that is not essential and therefore is not following guideline #1 on the govs coronavirus guidelines Website.

But what a surprise - usual suspects choose to fail to see the contradiction in w
hat the government is telling us and rationalise it away as this government does no wrong - well actually they don’t - rather choosing to attack the messenger.  Let’s see if it’s still there tomorrow.
		
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Its a guideline!!!!!!!!

"Stay at home as much as possible...." Its not you must stay at home, nor is it you must go out. Its "stay at home as much as possible." You are being treated like an adult... you choose what you want to do. We have the same instruction here. We could be in a bar all day every day but we choose to "stay at home as much as possible," without taking on too much cabin fever. We avoid the tourist bars that are seeing people down from Madrid, and we avoid the tourist restaurants for the same reason. Would you go to Bournemouth beach when its rammed? No, you choose not to. Apply the same thought process.

If YOU want perfection in terms of not coming into contact with the virus, YOU stay at home permanently!! That's the black and white instruction you appear to want.

C'mon Hugh, you're being deliberately obtuse to make a political point against a govt you detest, or you're subconsciously choosing to do so.

If you can't understand that simple sentence, "stay at home as much as possible..." really?


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## DRW (Jul 3, 2020)

This guy posts some really interesting stuff, only came across him last night, if anyone is following such stuff :-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol


Evidence starting to come in, that having it stops reinfection (well in the short term at least, bit like with Sars, so fingers crossed):-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1278753613179875328

Also a bit about t cells :-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1278738965974052865

Going to work my way back on his tweets.


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## rudebhoy (Jul 3, 2020)

_Coronavirus: PM urges people to be sensible as England lockdown eased.

Pubs allowed to re-open from 6am on Saturday, government confirms._


2 headlines I've just read!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



_Coronavirus: PM urges people to be sensible as England lockdown eased._

_Pubs allowed to re-open from 6am on Saturday, government confirms._


2 headlines I've just read!
		
Click to expand...

The pub one is stop some opening just after midnight tonight.


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



_Coronavirus: PM urges people to be sensible as England lockdown eased._

_Pubs allowed to re-open from 6am on Saturday, government confirms._


2 headlines I've just read!
		
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Market boys in London will be moaning, far to late.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



_Coronavirus: PM urges people to be sensible as England lockdown eased._

_Pubs allowed to re-open from 6am on Saturday, government confirms._


2 headlines I've just read!
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279032679686639618


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## User62651 (Jul 3, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



_Coronavirus: PM urges people to be sensible as England lockdown eased._

_Pubs allowed to re-open from 6am on Saturday, government confirms._


2 headlines I've just read!
		
Click to expand...

Most will be sensible but you can almost guarantee an element will be paralytic and/or fighting their way to A&E. When has the UK ever been sensible about drinking be it here or on holiday in Spain/Greece/Cyprus etc etc? For many Brits definition of a great night out is drinking to such excess that they have zero recollection of the night before, that always brings trouble. That is part of our 'culture'.

PM is right to ask though, they have to ease lockdown bit by bit, see how it goes then either carry on unlocking or reel it back in again - 'suck it and see'.

Be great if the drinking 'culture' did change going forward - more consideration for others.


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## fundy (Jul 3, 2020)

And still the poor cricketers cant have a game! Can go to the cricket club, have a drink inside or outside, can even go on the ground all as long as you stay socially distanced, can practise in the nets, but you cant actually have a game of cricket because of "teas and changing rooms" according to Boris

Hard to believe a tory government could ever lose the cricket vote.......


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## rudebhoy (Jul 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The pub one is stop some opening just after midnight tonight.
		
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Yes, I'm sure they had to pick a specific time to stop that, but 6am sends out a strange signal!


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## Kaz (Jul 3, 2020)

DRW said:



			This guy posts some really interesting stuff, only came across him last night, if anyone is following such stuff :-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol


Evidence starting to come in, that having it stops reinfection (well in the short term at least, bit like with Sars, so fingers crossed):-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1278753613179875328

Also a bit about t cells :-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1278738965974052865

Going to work my way back on his tweets.
		
Click to expand...

Been following him for a while really informative stuff albeit a bit over my head scientifically at times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2020)

Friends of my daughter booked a table for tomorrow night for drinks with a couple - and booked a table for later in another pub to have drinks with a different couple.  Stupid, selfish or confused?

In any case - they are clearly not ‘staying at home if at all possible‘, so any subsequent issues are their own fault and nothing to do with any premature relaxation...👍

See also PotUS playbook - come to my rally - have a great time and make me look good - but if you catch C19 it’s your own fault.🙄


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## Mudball (Jul 3, 2020)

fundy said:



			And still the poor cricketers cant have a game! Can go to the cricket club, have a drink inside or outside, can even go on the ground all as long as you stay socially distanced, can practise in the nets, but you cant actually have a game of cricket because of "teas and changing rooms" according to Boris

*Hard to believe a tory government could ever lose the cricket vote....... *

Click to expand...

He lost mine when he described the ball as a vector of disease.

Speaking to a friend in Queensland yesterday, they are about to resume... However, no spit or sweat allowed on the ball.   I guess sandpaper still ok


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## rulefan (Jul 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			However, no spit or sweat allowed on the ball.
		
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How likely is that to happen?


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## Kaz (Jul 3, 2020)

I’m pretty horrified with some of the stuff I’m reading about pubs opening down there. From 6 am? Is that really necessary? Why not open but with reduced licensing hours? Ease us back in gently. Instead A&E depts warned to expect a couple of weeks of New Year’s Eve style nights?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Most will be sensible but you can almost guarantee an element will be paralytic and/or fighting their way to A&E. When has the UK ever been sensible about drinking be it here or on holiday in Spain/Greece/Cyprus etc etc? For many Brits definition of a great night out is drinking to such excess that they have zero recollection of the night before, that always brings trouble. That is part of our 'culture'.

PM is right to ask though, they have to ease lockdown bit by bit, see how it goes then either carry on unlocking or reel it back in again - 'suck it and see'.

*Be great if the drinking 'culture' did change going forward - more consideration for others.*

Click to expand...

Shouting lager, lager, lager, lager, Lager, lager, lager, mega, mega white thing, mega, mega, mega, mega white thing, mega, mega, shouting lager, lager, lager, lager, going back to Romford, mega, mega, mega......

I'd say there 2 hopes for that, and one of them is Bob.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Shouting lager, lager, lager, lager, Lager, lager, lager, mega, mega *white thing*, mega, mega, mega, mega *white thing*, mega, mega, shouting lager, lager, lager, lager, going back to Romford, mega, mega, mega......

I'd say there 2 hopes for that, and one of them is Bob.
		
Click to expand...

Racist!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Racist!!!!!!!!!! 

Click to expand...

#realalematters


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## rulefan (Jul 3, 2020)

DRW said:



			This guy posts some really interesting stuff, only came across him last night, if anyone is following such stuff :-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol


Evidence starting to come in, that having it stops reinfection (well in the short term at least, bit like with Sars, so fingers crossed):-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1278753613179875328

Also a bit about t cells :-

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1278738965974052865

Going to work my way back on his tweets.
		
Click to expand...

I don't use twitter (the thinking man's wikipedia) but what is his reputation/background as an expert? Is he any more reliable than any other twitterer (or is it twit)? Has he mentioned 6G?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			#realalematters
		
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#ALLale matters.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I’m pretty horrified with some of the stuff I’m reading about pubs opening down there. From 6 am? Is that really necessary? Why not open but with reduced licensing hours? Ease us back in gently. Instead A&E depts warned to expect a couple of weeks of New Year’s Eve style nights?
		
Click to expand...


The owners of the pub my former D-in-L manages, with her current partner, have elected to not re-open until Monday lunch time... Suspect there'll be others adopting a similar strategy...


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## Billysboots (Jul 3, 2020)

Has anyone else noticed the UK’s overall number of positive tests has been revised down by about 30,000 in the last 24 hours?


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## GB72 (Jul 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I’m pretty horrified with some of the stuff I’m reading about pubs opening down there. From 6 am? Is that really necessary? Why not open but with reduced licensing hours? Ease us back in gently. Instead A&E depts warned to expect a couple of weeks of New Year’s Eve style nights?
		
Click to expand...

I am hardly expecting most pubs to open at 6am, they will apply normal licencing hours. I suspect this is more geared towards those that rely on trade coming off night and early morning shifts to whom 6am is the same as 6pm to most people. My local is operating normal opening hours.


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## GB72 (Jul 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Has anyone else noticed the UK’s overall number of positive tests has been revised down by about 30,000 in the last 24 hours?
		
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There was a bit of a back and forth on the news sites about what tests were appearing in the figures but I lost track of the argument a bit.


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			The owners of the pub my former D-in-L manages, with her current partner, have elected to not re-open until Monday lunch time... Suspect there'll be others adopting a similar strategy...
		
Click to expand...

Many locals pubs are operating the same way with staggered opening through the month and you need to book, even if it’s just to come in for coffee and cake.


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## GB72 (Jul 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Many locals pubs are operating the same way with staggered opening through the month and you need to book, even if it’s just to come in for coffee and cake.
		
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Ours is all booking as well. For this weekend, invites went out to the regulars, then the village facebook page so, effectively it is closed to anyone outside of the immediate area. Suspect that we will be a more forgiving crowd to get the procedures correct on and then open up to the wider area next week.


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## DRW (Jul 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Has anyone else noticed the UK’s overall number of positive tests has been revised down by about 30,000 in the last 24 hours?
		
Click to expand...

They removed double positives for the same person (so if one person got tested twice and was positive twice).

Given here :-

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/#category=utlas&map=rate



rulefan said:



			I don't use twitter (the thinking man's wikipedia) but what is his reputation/background as an expert? Is he any more reliable than any other twitterer (or is it twit)? Has he mentioned 6G?
		
Click to expand...

I don't have a twitter account either, just save links and spy on people who post about the virus.

Hes no Ernie the fastest milkman in the west, but pretty well up there with knowledge(quite a number of his posts, link off to 'proper' websites as well :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Topol


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## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Many locals pubs are operating the same way with staggered opening through the month and you need to book, even if it’s just to come in for coffee and cake.
		
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I was surprised with this one as it's part of one of the big national chains... Especially as it's also the largest in the area with an absolute huge garden [lawned] area...

As I am now essentially teetotal I am not gagging for an ale... It's the craic I am missing... Particularly being able criticise government [the tories] and receive a hearty cheer, in return, rather than a big thumbs down ...


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Friends of my daughter booked a table for tomorrow night for drinks with a couple - and booked a table for later in another pub to have drinks with a different couple.  Stupid, selfish or confused?

In any case - they are clearly not ‘staying at home if at all possible‘, so any subsequent issues are their own fault and nothing to do with any premature relaxation...👍

See also PotUS playbook - come to my rally - have a great time and make me look good - but if you catch C19 it’s your own fault.🙄
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully your daughter will stay well clear of her friends or, if not, you will ensure she stays away from you and your wife.


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I was surprised with this one as it's part of one of the big national chains... Especially as it's also the largest in the area with an absolute huge garden [lawned] area...

As I am now essentially teetotal I am not gagging for an ale... It's the craic I am missing... Particularly being able criticise government [the tories] and receive a hearty cheer, in return, rather than a big thumbs down ...
		
Click to expand...

One of ours is a Young’s and they are still developing their app and looking at 23rd.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			#ALLale matters. 

Click to expand...

I think you'll find Bud Light doesn't.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2020)

Independence day now renamed Super Saturday
…….followed by A&E Sunday


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## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Independence day now renamed Super Saturday
…….followed by A&E Sunday  

Click to expand...


When the USofA had a base here in Ruislip Independence Day could be thoroughly enjoyable... Well, whatever part of the day I could actually remember was OK...


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## DanFST (Jul 3, 2020)

NS on air bridges - "Another governments shambolic decision making process"

When did the devolved governments get to set foreign policy? Have I missed something major?


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## spongebob59 (Jul 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			NS on air bridges - "Another governments shambolic decision making process"

When did the devolved governments get to set foreign policy? Have I missed something major?
		
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political grandstanding


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## User62651 (Jul 3, 2020)

On this occassion the word shambolic does not seem so misplaced if this BBC report linked is correct - if she says anything counter to No10 she's going to have Boris fanboys all over it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53277092


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## Hobbit (Jul 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			NS on air bridges - "Another governments shambolic decision making process"

When did the devolved governments get to set foreign policy? Have I missed something major?
		
Click to expand...

Just a thought; if she wasn't part of the decision making process, which I gather from other reports, how does she know it was shambolic?

Just asking for a friend


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## Kaz (Jul 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			NS on air bridges - "Another governments shambolic decision making process"

When did the devolved governments get to set foreign policy? Have I missed something major?
		
Click to expand...

It would seem so.


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just a thought; if she wasn't part of the decision making process, which I gather from other reports, how does she know it was shambolic?

Just asking for a friend

Click to expand...

Although she wasn’t happy when it was pointed out, she had representation on the shambolic decision making group. She started so well at the start of this mess but appears to have got more into point scoring and politics the longer it’s gone on being determined not to do anything that the UK government comes up with until a week or two later.

PS The pandemic Cobra committee have members from all devolved governments and still do their own thing.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 3, 2020)

The US Surgeon General seems a bit confused as to whether wearing a face mask helps to prevent you catching Coronavirus or not. On the one hand the general public should stop buying them because they don't stop you getting it. But on the other hand healthcare providers need to wear them to care for sick patients so they aren't at risk. And he has a profile picture of himself wearing a face mask. I'm assuming that he isn't caring for sick patients in his role as surgeon general.


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## Kaz (Jul 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			The US Surgeon General seems a bit confused as to whether wearing a face mask helps to prevent you catching Coronavirus or not. On the one hand the general public should stop buying them because they don't stop you getting it. But on the other hand healthcare providers need to wear them to care for sick patients so they aren't at risk. And he has a profile picture of himself wearing a face mask. I'm assuming that he isn't caring for sick patients in his role as surgeon general.
View attachment 31497

Click to expand...

That tweet's four months old from a time they were struggling to get PPE for healthcare professionals. I'd also imagine he's changed his profile pic since sending it.


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## rulefan (Jul 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I’m pretty horrified with some of the stuff I’m reading about pubs opening down there. From 6 am? Is that really necessary?
		
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Well, the airport bars are open at or before 6am. It seems many people will be getting tanked up as if they were on their way to Benidorm


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That tweet's four months old *from a time they were struggling to get PPE for healthcare professionals.* I'd also imagine he's changed his profile pic since sending it.
		
Click to expand...

Well that's what he should've said then. "Please don't buy medical grade face masks as these are in short supply and we need all we can get for healthcare professionals". No ambiguity and a straightforward message, but to claim they are not effective in preventing the general public from catching it but are needed to protect healthcare workers is blatantly incorrect.


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## Kaz (Jul 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well that's what he should've said then. "Please don't buy medical grade face masks as these are in short supply and we need all we can get for healthcare professionals". No ambiguity and a straightforward message, but to claim they are not effective in preventing the general public from catching it but are needed to protect healthcare workers is blatantly incorrect.
		
Click to expand...

True enough. He's not really enhanced his reputation in his current role.


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## DanFST (Jul 3, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It would seem so.
		
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I can't work out if thats sarcasm? 

As far as i'm aware, and was law last year, they didn't. Whats changed to prompt that comment?


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## Slab (Jul 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			NS on air bridges - "Another governments shambolic decision making process"

When did the devolved governments get to set foreign policy? Have I missed something major?
		
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The list does seem to prompt a load of questions, there seems to be several that wont even let someone from the UK enter let alone leave again
Seems a tad early to include these destinations


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## Kaz (Jul 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I can't work out if thats sarcasm?

As far as i'm aware, and was law last year, they didn't. Whats changed to prompt that comment?
		
Click to expand...

I can’t work out if you really don’t understand or are being deliberately obtuse.

There’s a global pandemic at the moment and public health policy is devolved.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2020)

Oh no...the BBC weather guys have now produced a world map.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-indivisible-kingdom/#more-116074


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## rulefan (Jul 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh no...the BBC weather guys have now produced a world map.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-indivisible-kingdom/#more-116074

Click to expand...

I wonder if the Scottish and English votes are for very different reasons.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2020)

Handcock & Shipman supping ale at Martins pub. Great detail in the painting. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279315518114140162


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Handcock & Shipman supping ale at Martins pub. Great detail in the painting.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279315518114140162

Click to expand...

A valiant effort for a fifth-former.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 4, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			A valiant effort for a fifth-former.
		
Click to expand...

I agree and much prefer this one. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272948786093010945


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## DanFST (Jul 4, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I can’t work out if you really don’t understand or are being deliberately obtuse.

There’s a global pandemic at the moment and public health policy is devolved.
		
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Oh obtuse....

Then she should work on health policy, within her *limited powers*. Hardly knocked that out of the park.

No matter how much she and DFT want to be independent, *Scotland isn't.* Sadiq Khan runs an area with more people and higher GDP should he get to decide foreign policy too? She doesn't have to deal with the consequences of closing Scotland's important tourist sector the government does, the British people will pay for it.


We are British. I hated the petulant small brother mentality of some Scots when I lived there, whenever I go back up and the vocal *minority* on the internet. You can't just be the loudest voice in the room or sew dissent and get your way.



Slab said:



			The list does seem to prompt a load of questions
		
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Totally! However NS has said it's the "shambolic decision making process" rather than the list itself.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2020)

The decision making process was shambolic.
No other word for it.
What else would you call giving the devolved nations [3/4 of the UK] less than one hour to agree with the Tory Party's equally shambolic choice of countries.
I must confess that I have never even heard of quite a lot of those countries.


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## Hobbit (Jul 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The decision making process was shambolic.
No other word for it.
What else would you call giving the devolved nations [3/4 of the UK] less than one hour to agree with the Tory Party's equally shambolic choice of countries.
I must confess that I have never even heard of quite a lot of those countries.
		
Click to expand...

If you believe its shambolic without researching those countries, maybe it says a lot about you and your bias. By all means explain why it is shambolic.

Equally, I understand why Scotland, NI and Wales would be very disgruntled. They have control of Healthcare but have Westminster deciding a travel policy that will impact on their efforts to create a cohesive plan for their respective nation's health.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If you believe its shambolic without researching those countries, maybe it says a lot about you and your bias. By all means explain why it is shambolic.

Equally, I understand why Scotland, NI and Wales would be very disgruntled. They have control of Healthcare but have Westminster deciding a travel policy that will impact on their efforts to create a cohesive plan for their respective nation's health.
		
Click to expand...

What...…...research them all in less than an hour......….


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## Kaz (Jul 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Oh obtuse....

Then she should work on health policy, within her *limited powers*. Hardly knocked that out of the park.

No matter how much she and DFT want to be independent, *Scotland isn't.* Sadiq Khan runs an area with more people and higher GDP should he get to decide foreign policy too? She doesn't have to deal with the consequences of closing Scotland's important tourist sector the government does, the British people will pay for it.


We are British. I hated the petulant small brother mentality of some Scots when I lived there, whenever I go back up and the vocal *minority* on the internet. You can't just be the loudest voice in the room or sew dissent and get your way.



Totally! However NS has said it's the "shambolic decision making process" rather than the list itself.
		
Click to expand...

While I can agree with your point on the attitude of some of my countryfolk I think you are overreacting. Deciding who does and doesn't have to self-isolate in Scotland is well within the scottish government's powers. Passing comment on the performance of the UK Government on non-devolved matters is also more than reasonable. And while they are often very far wide of the mark with those comments I don't think much they've said about the uk govt's coronavirus response has been too far wrong. It certainly has been pretty shambolic at times.

I'm afraid that Scottish independence is now a racing certainty, and I write that as someone who will still vote against it. Too many of us will look at our respective leaders and want nothing to do with the buffoon in Downing street while forgetting that they are both only there for a moment in time. It's a perfect storm that the SNP will exploit to the fullest.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 4, 2020)

This is shocking if found to be correct!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279311067785633793


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree and much prefer this one.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272948786093010945

Click to expand...

Clearly you are a bigger fan of schoolboy humour than I am.


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## Hobbit (Jul 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What...…...research them all in less than an hour......….

Click to expand...

So you can’t support your original statement... guess your just jumping on the shambolic statement


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So you can’t support your original statement... guess your just jumping on the shambolic statement 

Click to expand...

It is all over the non Unionist free Scottish press.


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## Old Skier (Jul 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is all over the non Unionist free Scottish press. 

Click to expand...

Did the biased press forget, like the first minister that one of yours was part of the shambolic decision making meeting


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## Backache (Jul 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Oh obtuse....

Then she should work on health policy, within her *limited powers*. Hardly knocked that out of the park.

No matter how much she and DFT want to be independent, *Scotland isn't.* Sadiq Khan runs an area with more people and higher GDP should he get to decide foreign policy too? She doesn't have to deal with the consequences of closing Scotland's important tourist sector the government does, the British people will pay for it.


We are British. I hated the petulant small brother mentality of some Scots when I lived there, whenever I go back up and the vocal *minority* on the internet. You can't just be the loudest voice in the room or sew dissent and get your way.



Totally! However NS has said it's the "shambolic decision making process" rather than the list itself.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think the First Minister is deciding foreign policy.
The question is which countries can you return from without quarantine.
Quarantine is a public health issue, not foreign policy and is entirely within her remit.
To make things convenient it would be sensible to have  the UK aligned on quarantine issues. It would appear from all the devolved administration's that Westminster has been chopping and changing at short notice without consultation.


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## Hobbit (Jul 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is all over the non Unionist free Scottish press. 

Click to expand...

So, as per your previous post, you’re clueless. Don’t you think your posts, without anything concrete, are rather “shambolic?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So, as per your previous post, you’re clueless. Don’t you think your posts, without anything concrete, are rather “shambolic? 

Click to expand...

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-launches-air-bridges-22294609
There you go, just one click away.....and it's even the Daily Ranger as well. Happy now.


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## User62651 (Jul 5, 2020)

Very strong words from Independent Sage scientist chap, former chief scientific officer, on Sophie Ridge, no mincing of words. Saying UK Govt approach plain wrong, cannot restart economy whilst still 3000 new covid cases per day as that will cost thousands of lives. Reckons Ireland, NI, Scotland, Wales approach to really hammer covid first before significant easing is correct way forward. 
'Zero covid UK' is the tagline.
Is he right? If so why is life seen as less important in England by this UK Govt?
If he is wrong, why is he wrong? 
Are the pub opening scenes from yesterday not enough to confirm too many people will not socially distance or be responsible enough whilst the virus is still present at a significant level (ca. 3000 per day in England)?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So, as per your previous post, you’re clueless. Don’t you think your posts, without anything concrete, are rather “shambolic? 

Click to expand...

Not sure how shambolic things have been but also not sure what’s happened to the goverments traffic lighting system for travel.  I assume the list of last week are all green.  Not sure which countries are currently amber, unless all others are red.  Is there a gov website that shows ambers and why.  So for instance I am not sure If Portugal is an amber or a red as portugal seems to think it should be green.  Just asking.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 5, 2020)

Is it just a rumour that the Tory councillors on the Borders Council want to change it's name to No Borders Council.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Very strong words from Independent Sage scientist chap, former chief scientific officer, on Sophie Ridge, no mincing of words. Saying UK Govt approach plain wrong, cannot restart economy whilst still 3000 new covid cases per day as that will cost thousands of lives. Reckons Ireland, NI, Scotland, Wales approach to really hammer covid first before significant easing is correct way forward.
'Zero covid UK' is the tagline.
Is he right? If so why is life seen as less important in England by this UK Govt?
If he is wrong, why is he wrong?
Are the pub opening scenes from yesterday not enough to confirm too many people will not socially distance or be responsible enough whilst the virus is still present at a significant level (ca. 3000 per day in England)?
		
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It may be the fastest way to 'beat the virus' but it won't make it disappear. And the cost to rest of society is already pretty crippling. I'm not certain that now is the time to open up everything, but I certainly appreciate hairdressers being opened. 
So a political decision, bearing 'the science' in mind, but also aware of the massive cost of not opening up.
I just hope folk are sensible. I work with one who, for all his excellent features, is likely to ignore all the rules/recommendations in his outing to his brother - and serious pub session - this weekend!


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			cannot restart economy whilst still *3000 new covid cases per day* as that will cost thousands of lives. 
ca. *3000 per day in England *

Click to expand...

All the figures I've seen show 624 new cases yesterday in the UK


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## User62651 (Jul 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It may be the fastest way to 'beat the virus' but it won't make it disappear. And the cost to rest of society is already pretty crippling. I'm not certain that now is the time to open up everything, but I certainly appreciate hairdressers being opened.
So a political decision, bearing 'the science' in mind, but also aware of the massive cost of not opening up.
I just hope folk are sensible. I work with one who, for all his excellent features, is likely to ignore all the rules/recommendations in his outing to his brother - and serious pub session - this weekend!
		
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Ok, just was fairly struck by use of the word 'immoral' that he used in ref to Govt policy.
Opening up is important but it comes over as premature when you see a body of experts make these claims. If you are slow or reluctant into lockdown, as we were, then not learning from that and coming out of the lockdown too quickly anyway is just repeating the same mistake. Case for and against all gets so clouded in left/right/nationalist politics in UK of course so there's rarely a sensible unbiased view. I dont think Independent Sage are a political body as such though. 
Is it better to have one long strict lockdown or do it half hearted like we did, ease up too soon so potentially face several more shorter nationwide lockdowns, losing lives needlessly along the way? Not an easy call as there's no real precedent to follow but I'm happier with the ScotGov stand for us up here at present on it. IMO they were just as slow into the lockdown as UK Govt was but are being considerably more careful now, justifiably.


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## User62651 (Jul 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			All the figures I've seen show 624 new cases yesterday in the UK
		
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That's what was quoted on sky, I believe he is saying 3000 new infections, perhaps the 624 is what was actually tested as positive?


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Ok, just was fairly struck by use of the word 'immoral' that he used in ref to Govt policy.
Opening up is important but it comes over as premature when you see a body of experts make these claims. If you are slow or reluctant into lockdown, as we were, then not learning from that and coming out of the lockdown too quickly anyway is just repeating the same mistake. Case for and against all gets so clouded in left/right/nationalist politics in UK of course so there's rarely a sensible unbiased view. I dont think Independent Sage are a political body as such though.
Is it better to have one long strict lockdown or do it half hearted like we did, ease up too soon so potentially face several more shorter nationwide lockdowns, losing lives needlessly along the way? Not an easy call as there's no real precedent to follow but I'm happier with the ScotGov stand for us up here at present on it. IMO they were just as slow into the lockdown as UK Govt was but are being considerably more careful now, justifiably.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t mind betting that by 12 July her travel policy will be exactly the same or have a week saving grace as the one being used by the UK Government in England.


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## drdel (Jul 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Ok, just was fairly struck by use of the word 'immoral' that he used in ref to Govt policy.
Opening up is important but it comes over as premature when you see a body of experts make these claims. If you are slow or reluctant into lockdown, as we were, then not learning from that and coming out of the lockdown too quickly anyway is just repeating the same mistake. Case for and against all gets so clouded in left/right/nationalist politics in UK of course so there's rarely a sensible unbiased view. I dont think Independent Sage are a political body as such though.
Is it better to have one long strict lockdown or do it half hearted like we did, ease up too soon so potentially face several more shorter nationwide lockdowns, losing lives needlessly along the way? Not an easy call as there's no real precedent to follow but I'm happier with the ScotGov stand for us up here at present on it. IMO they were just as slow into the lockdown as UK Govt was but are being considerably more careful now, justifiably.
		
Click to expand...

It's clear that large areas of the UK have the virus at very low levels. It is right that people who can work should be and the covid guidelines makes it relatively safe to do so.

Covid-19 is going to be around for a long time so it is unrealistic to freeze the economy any longer.

We have to manage the situation and stop people sitting back on furlough supported holiday and abusing the guidance. At least if they were in work they would be under controlled circumstances.

Remember SAGE is a large group with varying opinions. Some members of which like to flatter their egos.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-launches-air-bridges-22294609
There you go, just one click away.....and it's even the Daily Ranger as well. Happy now.
		
Click to expand...

Scotland has a somewhat different approach to 'managing' this virus, which, as a 'subsidised' economy, it is applying the 'eradicate irrespective of the cost' approach. Johnson, as the provider of the 'subsidy', along with running UK overall, cannot (afford to) take the same approach and must get all parts of the economy moving again. While I'm not certain whether or not he's moving too fast, I certainly agree with the approach.
Those Scots who take the approach the DR identifies - via Manchester - are, unless already (trapped) overseas, selfishly risking other folks lives! That doesn't, to me, seem a natural Scottish trait!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 5, 2020)

One of the govt advisors, either chief medical or chief scientists, talked the other day about relaxing lockdown. They know there are risks but they also talked about the risks, medical, psychological and financial of remaining in lock down. They have to look at the bigger picture, not just one issue. 

It's easy for other 'experts ' to constantly quote caution, as easy as those who demand total relaxation, but the govt has to find a middle ground. They actually have to make decisions, not just advise, and they have to deal with the consequences, whatever they may be.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2020)

Coming round to the thinking that if in 2-3 weeks time no 4th July initiated spike is evident then we should basically look to open pubs, venues and clubs back up almost as normal sooner rather than later - targeted at the under 35s or whatever age in the death rate drops off the cliff. Let that age group get back to living a life.

Yes they could spread infection to more vulnerable and older but we have to be able to look after ourselves knowing that any youngster could have the virus.  And we migrate that risk as best we can and with their understanding that they could be symptomatic and present a risk to us.

I await to see how this weekends compliance - or lack of it - turns out in respect of community infections.

Coming round but not quite there...


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## User62651 (Jul 5, 2020)

_"Remember SAGE is a large group with varying opinions. Some members of which like to flatter their egos"_

Re Sage, for clarity I believe the chap on Sky is not from Sage, instead another group who have formed called Independent Sage offering their combined expert opinion, mainly because Govt (Cummings) have Sage under their total control so they 'tow the party line'. Transparency is what they claim to offer.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 5, 2020)

You mean the totally unbiased sage 

https://order-order.com/2020/05/04/not-independent-activist-stuffed-shadow-sage/


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## MegaSteve (Jul 5, 2020)

In the German press we gullible _Inselaffen _are under the spell of a flat footed pied piper _Grossmaul… _


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## User62651 (Jul 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Wouldn’t mind betting that by 12 July her travel policy will be exactly the same or have a week saving grace as the one being used by the UK Government in England.
		
Click to expand...

Depends what the scientists say, not NS. Pretty sure she has some guilt for the Edinburgh Nike thing and not locking down sooner so won't want to bee seen to fail on covid more than once. R rate has come down very well of late.
i note how the Brexiteer Tories on here never criticise Drakeford or Foster for their devolved policy differences on covid to Westminster, wonder why?


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Depends what the scientists say, not NS. Pretty sure she has some guilt for the Edinburgh Nike thing and not locking down sooner so won't want to bee seen to fail on covid more than once. R rate has come down very well of late.
i note how the Brexiteer Tories on here never criticise Drakeford or Foster for their devolved policy differences on covid to Westminster, wonder why?
		
Click to expand...

NS is ignoring what the scientists say (the real SAGE committee) which is where her advisors sit. Not sure what Brexiteers has to do with it as that war has already been won and have disbanded.


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2020)

Seems that all this UK Government “mistakes“ have caught on https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53298429


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## User62651 (Jul 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			NS is ignoring what the scientists say (the real SAGE committee) which is where her advisors sit. *Not sure what Brexiteers has to do with it as that war has already been won and have disbanded.*

Click to expand...

They just seem to have a particular personal hatred of Sturgeon. She's no hero to us, just First Minister.
Naiive or head in sand to think the Europe question has been truly settled, perhaps short term but longer term no, depending on innumerable factors and future successes/failures.


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			They just seem to have a particular personal hatred of Sturgeon. She's no hero to us, just First Minister.
Naiive or head in sand to think the Europe question has been truly settled, perhaps short term but longer term no, depending on innumerable factors and future successes/failures.
		
Click to expand...

In the beginning most said how well she was doing and rated her briefings.  Unfortunately in the last month she has become more interested in politics and one up manship IMO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			In the beginning most said how well she was doing and rated her briefings.  Unfortunately in the last month she has become more interested in politics and one up manship IMO.
		
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I suggest that it is a dangerous game she'd being playing if she were to play politics around such as the Scottish tourism industry given how crucial that is to the Scottish economy.  But she has got pretty angry with suggestions that she is - pointing out that she is doing no more than what we hear from Australia today with the Victoria/NSW border being closed due to increased infection in Melbourne.   Yes - the Australian states agreed the closure jointly with the Federal government - but they are still closing a border on health grounds.  Besides - Oneupmanship with who and on what?  From what I hear she mainly makes her points based upon what she thinks is right for Scotland - and accepts that what she understands to be right for Scotland may no be right for England and vice versa.  That's not one upmanship - that's just different.  And the difference she knows might not be to her benefit - maybe she is simply being more risk averse and cautious than Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland


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## Old Skier (Jul 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that it is a dangerous game she'd being playing if she were to play politics around such as the Scottish tourism industry given how crucial that is to the Scottish economy.  But she has got pretty angry with suggestions that she is - pointing out that she is doing no more than what we hear from Australia today with the Victoria/NSW border being closed due to increased infection in Melbourne.   Yes - the Australian states agreed the closure jointly with the Federal government - but they are still closing a border on health grounds.  Besides - Oneupmanship with who and on what?  From what I hear she mainly makes her points based upon what she thinks is right for Scotland - and accepts that what she understands to be right for Scotland may no be right for England and vice versa.  That's not one upmanship - that's just different.  And the difference she knows might not be to her benefit - maybe she is simply being more risk averse and cautious than Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland

Click to expand...

I did put IMO, I just find it strange that her risk aversion seems to only last for just over a week.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I did put IMO, I just find it strange that her risk aversion seems to only last for just over a week.
		
Click to expand...

In which case her oneupmanship doesn't have much time to gestate to her political benefit.


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## drdel (Jul 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that it is a dangerous game she'd being playing if she were to play politics around such as the Scottish tourism industry given how crucial that is to the Scottish economy.  But she has got pretty angry with suggestions that she is - pointing out that she is doing no more than what we hear from Australia today with the Victoria/NSW border being closed due to increased infection in Melbourne.   Yes - the Australian states agreed the closure jointly with the Federal government - but they are still closing a border on health grounds.  Besides - Oneupmanship with who and on what?  From what I hear she mainly makes her points based upon what she thinks is right for Scotland - and accepts that what she understands to be right for Scotland may no be right for England and vice versa.  That's not one upmanship - that's just different.  And the difference she knows might not be to her benefit - maybe she is simply being more risk averse and cautious than Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland

Click to expand...

Her risk aversion does not seem to extend to the way she has managed Scotland's economy.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			You mean the totally unbiased sage

https://order-order.com/2020/05/04/not-independent-activist-stuffed-shadow-sage/

Click to expand...

That's nothing to do with SAGE! It's 'Independent SAGE' - a bunch of political activists using 'SAGE' as some form of legitimacy!

Btw. If you had actually read the article on the link you posted, you'd have realised that too!


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## rulefan (Jul 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's nothing to do with SAGE! It's 'Independent SAGE' - a bunch of political activists using 'SAGE' as some form of legitimacy!

Btw. If you had actually read the article on the link you posted, you'd have realised that too!
		
Click to expand...

I think that was the point of the post


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2020)

Nice to see Bojo laying the ground work to shift the blame for all the deaths in care homes as he knows it is a damning indictment on the government's handling of the crisis. Apparently they didn't follow the correct procedures.  Unlike Cummings who apparently did.  Strange old world.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Her risk aversion does not seem to extend to the way she has managed Scotland's economy.
		
Click to expand...

The devolved nations can only spend the share of UK money that Westminster allows them to spend, they are not allowed to borrow additional money like the UK.
They  still have to pay our their share of the massive debts that the Westminster governments have built up over successive years.
'UK' spends such as HS2, Channel Tunnel and Crossrail are included in this equation whereas Forth Crossing and dualing the A9 are not.
Devolved nations are not in control of their economies they can only manage on what they get back from Westminster.


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## drdel (Jul 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nice to see Bojo laying the ground work to shift the blame for all the deaths in care homes as he knows it is a damning indictment on the government's handling of the crisis. Apparently they didn't follow the correct procedures.  Unlike Cummings who apparently did.  Strange old world.
		
Click to expand...

Have you seen the state of some care homes and the low wages paid alongside high levels of staff rotation. Uncomfortable truth but he's probably right?


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## Beezerk (Jul 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nice to see Bojo laying the ground work to shift the blame for all the deaths in care homes as he knows it is a damning indictment on the government's handling of the crisis. Apparently they didn't follow the correct procedures.  Unlike Cummings who apparently did.  Strange old world.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't he say "some" didn't follow correct procedures? As far as I can gather that is true but that isn't as good a story is it 🤣


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## drdel (Jul 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The devolved nations can only spend the share of UK money that Westminster allows them to spend, they are not allowed to borrow additional money like the UK.
They  still have to pay our their share of the massive debts that the Westminster governments have built up over successive years.
'UK' spends such as HS2, Channel Tunnel and Crossrail are included in this equation whereas Forth Crossing and dualing the A9 are not.
Devolved nations are not in control of their economies they can only manage on what they get back from Westminster.
		
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So all the economic data on Scotland must be wrong: really!


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2020)

I think Boris was way out of order and needs to apologise or clarify what he meant to say  He's done a Trump and spoken out of turn and needs to put it right.

Slightly amused at the BBC leading with this and their faux outrage. The same BBC who has had countless undercover Panorama programmes and investigations into the appalling standard of care and even abuse in care homes!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nice to see Bojo laying the ground work to shift the blame for all the deaths in care homes as he knows it is a damning indictment on the government's handling of the crisis. Apparently they didn't follow the correct procedures.  Unlike Cummings who apparently did.  Strange old world.
		
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Absolutely, dead cat again, and what will happen is every word will be disected for what he did and didn’t actually say and then focus on the small percentage were he may be correct and ignore the large percentage that he got wrong.

Would be interesting to know when he found out some didn’t follow the procedures and what action he took once he found out.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nice to see Bojo laying the ground work to shift the blame for all the deaths in care homes as he knows it is a damning indictment on the government's handling of the crisis. Apparently they didn't follow the correct procedures.  Unlike Cummings who apparently did.  Strange old world.
		
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I thought it had been clarified that he meant that no one knew the correct procedures due to not knowing about asymptomatic transmission. That's not to say I believe that explanation as the slopey shouldered buffoon would do anything to avoid the blame falling on him or his government.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			...
Slightly amused at the BBC leading with this and their faux outrage. The same BBC who has had *countless undercover Panorama programmes and investigations into the appalling standard of care and even abuse in care homes*!
		
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Surely that would mean that their outrage is genuine - and from knowledge and experience of the situation? Or did those programmes/investigations not find any problems?


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Surely that would mean that their outrage is genuine - and from knowledge and experience of the situation? Or did those programmes/investigations not find any problems?
		
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Their outrage is that Boris dared to criticise their handling of the epidemic.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought it had been clarified that he meant that no one knew the correct procedures due to not knowing about asymptomatic transmission. That's not to say I believe that explanation as the slopey shouldered buffoon would do anything to avoid the blame falling on him or his government.
		
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Hence the  The minister today claiming he was saying no one knew how best to handle it is tosh...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought it had been clarified that he meant that no one knew the correct procedures due to not knowing about asymptomatic transmission. That's not to say I believe that explanation as the slopey shouldered buffoon would do anything to avoid the blame falling on him or his government.
		
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That point was made by the Business Secretary, Alok Sharma that he believed that boris was pointing out no one knew the correct procedures.

So not sure if he was speaking officially for boris or just giving his take on what was said.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Their outrage is that Boris dared to criticise their handling of the epidemic.
		
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And again...Isn't it *Boris* that is being criticised for *his* handling of it? Excuse my confusion, but can you explain (as I can't understand) how a broadcasting organisation can 'handle' the epidemic? That surely IS something for the Government, in this case, to do. A broadcasting organisation can surely only provide 'coverage' of how it's being handled.


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)




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## funkycoldmedina (Jul 7, 2020)

What I find most outstanding is that a Tory PM is shocked that when you open up something to the free market such as care homes the providers  main concern is around profit. How much can we charge and how cheap can we provide it. Serco, Group 4 etc etc all doing the same thing.
My dad is in a well run care home, pretty sure he had it in fact, the biggest gripe they've had is testing, they felt abandoned for a good period at the beginning. They barrier nurse anyone with symptoms but they need to know who amongst patients and staff are asymptomatic. They still have new cases now. 
As we all know there are some horrendous providers but there are many good ones, having a sly pop at them for your own failings and putting them in the crosshairs is morally repugnant especially considering the harrowing time many of them will have had to endure over the last few months. When my dad started with symptoms I asked the home what their procedures were. In the nicest of ways they said they would make him comfortable but he would not be admitted to hospital. That's an awful thing for these people to have to deal with.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

Another Boris critical onslaught by the 'great offended brigade'  What a job he has, it seems he's personally responsible for the handling of people in care homes now and was found incapable by the slope of his shoulders and Buffonary, but not only that, care homes were severely affected by some bloke driving his car to his Dads.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What I find most outstanding is that a Tory PM is shocked that when you open up something to the free market such as care homes the providers  main concern is around profit. How much can we charge and how cheap can we provide it. Serco, Group 4 etc etc all doing the same thing.
My dad is in a well run care home, pretty sure he had it in fact, the biggest gripe they've had is testing, they felt abandoned for a good period at the beginning. They barrier nurse anyone with symptoms but they need to know who amongst patients and staff are asymptomatic. They still have new cases now.
As we all know there are some horrendous providers but there are many good ones, having a sly pop at them for your own failings and putting them in the crosshairs is morally repugnant especially considering the harrowing time many of them will have had to endure over the last few months. When my dad started with symptoms I asked the home what their procedures were. In the nicest of ways they said they would make him comfortable but he would not be admitted to hospital. That's an awful thing for these people to have to deal with.
		
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Yes, there were mistakes made when dealing with this new virus and it wouldnt be right to lay criticism at the doors of most care homes but it's also wrong for people to lay the blame for the Social Care system at Boris, this issue is as old as the hills and needs addressing but lets all keep party political bias out of it.  Hopefully a lesson will have been learned here that will provoke some new policy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2020)

Love the over reaction from a “boris can do no wrong” supporter,
5 posts described as an “onslaught” yet only 3 from apparent Labour supporters.

Whether people accept it or not a “Leader” is ultimately responsible for what happens during their tenure, that could be the “Leader” of a Football team or a Rugby team or a Global business or a Local business.

Are we really back to boris supporters accepting no criticism whatsoever of the glorious leader.


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2020)

Johnson is a liar and a coward. He is happy to change his story when it suits him, and to blame others for his own many failings. The care home crisis is due in large part to discharges back from hospitals to care homes made hastily by a panicked Govt after they realised their euthanasia experiment in herd immunity was going to come with a much higher cost in bodies than they first realised. At the time, neither the NHS not care homes had adequate testing or PPE. The ring of protection for the care sector claimed by Hancock is risible. Precisely the opposite happened.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2020)

And so Team 'Always and Forever Boris' rally to his defence by rationalising and spinning what he said yesterday into something *that he did not say*.

And the acolytes in his Cabinet do likewise in the media (see for example Alok Sharma on Today this morning - just shamelessly sticking to the JohnCumm line).

But as some here have already demonstrated - that spinning has worked, because Johnson's comments are indeed being seen by some as reasonable - that indeed some of the problems leading to deaths in care homes were nothing to do with lack of guidance, clarity or support (PPE etc) from the government - or indeed misguided and risky policy - the problems in so many homes were the fault of the care homes themselves.

Pretty sickening really - so when he was clapping just a couple of days ago he was clapping for _some_ care homes and _some_ carers - but not all.  But his words are out there and that's all a populist leader has to do.  His supporters will believe his words yesterday are what he believes and so what was the truth - no matter what anyone subsequently says.

And of course no sight whatsoever of an apology to care home workers from Johnson - and there won't be - because he is a populist leader and populist leaders are always right.  For too many Johnson was right on Brexit - he has to be as they followed his lead and believed his deceits - and so for that same group he must always be right on all matters.


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## DanFST (Jul 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The devolved nations can only spend the share of UK money that Westminster allows them to spend, they are not allowed to borrow additional money like the UK.
They  still have to pay our their share of the massive debts that the Westminster governments have built up over successive years.
'UK' spends such as HS2, Channel Tunnel and Crossrail are included in this equation whereas Forth Crossing and dualing the A9 are not.
Devolved nations are not in control of their economies they can only manage on what they get back from Westminster.
		
Click to expand...


Whilst you are correct, Scottish deficit is 7.2% and rising & GDP is shrinking. (Oil and gas is struggling)

It's not Westminster debts that are causing that.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Didn't he say "some" didn't follow correct procedures? As far as I can gather that is true but that isn't as good a story is it 🤣
		
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As I understand it, the 'homes' that fared best were the ones that didn't follow government 'procedures'...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Love the over reaction from a “boris can do no wrong” supporter,
5 posts described as an “onslaught” y*et only 3 from apparent Labour supporters*.

Whether people accept it or not a “Leader” is ultimately responsible for what happens during their tenure, that could be the “Leader” of a Football team or a Rugby team or a Global business or a Local business.

Are we really back to boris supporters accepting no criticism whatsoever of the glorious leader.

Click to expand...

Someone has not called me a labour supporter again have they?  How may times, I haven't voted Labour in ages, do I look like some commie loving Corbynista? 

I have said many times that I abhor Labour's economic ideology.  How they allegedly want to massively expand the role of the state and pump billons into the economy with scant regard for how we will pay it all back.  The Tories just do not do that kind of thing. They know an economy mostly built on consumer spending, zero hours contracts and cheap credit is sound, and I think Labour could learn a lot from the Tories recent approach to economic matters.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, there were mistakes made when dealing with this new virus and it wouldnt be right to lay criticism at the doors of most care homes but it's also wrong for people to lay the blame for the Social Care system at Boris, this issue is as old as the hills and needs addressing but lets all keep party political bias out of it.  Hopefully a lesson will have been learned here that will provoke some new policy.
		
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This issue is not "as old as the hills"... I can well remember the exemplary care my grandparents received, back in the day, in council owned/managed care homes...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Someone has not called me a labour supporter again have they?  How may times, I haven't voted Labour in ages, do I look like some commie loving Corbynista?

I have said many times that I abhor Labour's economic ideology.  How they allegedly want to massively expand the role of the state and pump billons into the economy with scant regard for how we will pay it all back.  The Tories just do not do that kind of thing. They know an economy mostly built on consumer spending, zero hours contracts and cheap credit is sound, and I think Labour could learn a lot from the Tories recent approach to economic matters.
		
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You’re one of the 2 non-Labourites, I think. But certainly one of the “great offended brigade” who took part in the onslaught.


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re one of the 2 non-Labourites, I think. But certainly one of the “great offended brigade” who took part in the onslaught.
		
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i hope @Hacker Khan  is not offended again..


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

Was speaking to a colleague in the States yesterday.. Interesting conversation... He is good gun carrying, NRA card holding, MAGA and comes from a family of Republicans..  He is travelled the world.   It was interesting to hear his views of Trump.  Acc to him 'when the body bag count is increasing, even the most ardent Republicans are rethinking about supporting Trump'.... but he still has to think twice about voting Biden.  Simply because his family votes Repbulican.  
I dont know how much of such a party line approach is taken in the UK.    Couple of years ago, i think I read an article which talked about traditional family & party lines.  It was more around traditional labour voting blue collared famiies and immigrant families had started to vote Tories as they gain more education and improve their financial status.  I wonder if the Covid will make some Tories go the other way.  Though quiet frankly, you are better off voting for Bucket Head in this country.. That way, you are assured you will still get a clown in #10


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## drdel (Jul 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Johnson is a liar and a coward. He is happy to change his story when it suits him, and to blame others for his own many failings. The care home crisis is due in large part to discharges back from hospitals to care homes made hastily by a panicked Govt after they realised their euthanasia experiment in herd immunity was going to come with a much higher cost in bodies than they first realised. At the time, neither the NHS not care homes had adequate testing or PPE. The ring of protection for the care sector claimed by Hancock is risible. Precisely the opposite happened.
		
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Small fact - The PM did not discharge anyone back to Care Homes that was done by medical staff at NHS Trusts - the same Trusts who were advised several years ago to hold stocks of PPE but didn't bother and instead upped the pay and levels of management.


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## GB72 (Jul 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Was speaking to a colleague in the States yesterday.. Interesting conversation... He is good gun carrying, NRA card holding, MAGA and comes from a family of Republicans..  He is travelled the world.   It was interesting to hear his views of Trump.  Acc to him 'when the body bag count is increasing, even the most ardent Republicans are rethinking about supporting Trump'.... but he still has to think twice about voting Biden.  Simply because his family votes Repbulican. 
I dont know how much of such a party line approach is taken in the UK.    Couple of years ago, i think I read an article which talked about traditional family & party lines.  It was more around traditional labour voting blue collared famiies and immigrant families had started to vote Tories as they gain more education and improve their financial status.  I wonder if the Covid will make some Tories go the other way.  Though quiet frankly, you are better off voting for Bucket Head in this country.. That way, you are assured you will still get a clown in #10
		
Click to expand...

I don't have a party line but tend to vote for whichever party is putting forward the more center policies as I have no attraction to hard left or hard right. The last election left me basically no choice as both parties went to the extreme ends of the spectrum. 10 years ago I could have voted either way as there was not much between to centerist sets of policies. Problem we have is that when one party goes to the extreme, the other does likewise in trying to be opposite when, in fact, a center approach may stand more chance of taking voters from the other side.


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## rulefan (Jul 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As I understand it, the 'homes' that fared best were the ones that didn't follow government 'procedures'...
		
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The government didn't issue 'procedures'. The decision to move people was made by NHS officials.


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Small fact - The PM did not discharge anyone back to Care Homes that was done by medical staff at NHS Trusts - the same Trusts who were advised several years ago to hold stocks of PPE but didn't bother and instead upped the pay and levels of management.
		
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I think we are all falling into the same ... everyone blaming the other guy. The reality is there is blame in every part of this chain. The Govt failed (BoJo as the head cannot absolve himself), the care system is not working (no money to fix), the NHS was a shining example on the frontline but the supply chain was broken (no PPE), no clear guidance from regulators (Medical, dental, Cricket etc).
 Ironically the Ones that ignored the govt did well. Equally the most hated set of the Brit professionals - the Banks - seemed to have worked well thru this. Similarly the Govt’s furlough scheme worked too ... so there are many bright spots and equally dark spots out there.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			This issue is not "as old as the hills"... I can well remember the exemplary care my grandparents received, back in the day, in council owned/managed care homes...
		
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Yes it is, funding of Social care has always been a problem. There are still council funded care homes but only for people not able to fund through their own wealth.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The government didn't issue 'procedures'. The decision to move people was made by NHS officials.
		
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Who are merely messengers for government...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Someone has not called me a labour supporter again have they?  How may times, I haven't voted Labour in ages, do I look like some commie loving Corbynista?

I have said many times that I abhor Labour's economic ideology.  How they allegedly want to massively expand the role of the state and pump billons into the economy with scant regard for how we will pay it all back.  The Tories just do not do that kind of thing. They know an economy mostly built on consumer spending, zero hours contracts and cheap credit is sound, and I think Labour could learn a lot from the Tories recent approach to economic matters.
		
Click to expand...

If it sounds like a labour supporter and writes like a labour supporter it may well be a Labour Supporter.

However it seems like the Grand and Neborious Order of Yogurt Huggers are United in their ongoing quest to personally blame the Slopey Shouldered One, he of the Empty Jacket and Grand Wizard of all that offendeth, for anything and everything.  Just a normal Tuesday really. 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Who are merely messengers for government...
		
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No they're not, they were the suppliers and operators of the health services last time I looked.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 7, 2020)

Mudball said:








i hope @Hacker Khan  is not offended again..
		
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I'm always offended.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2020)

I don't think (m)any are blaming Johnson and his crew 100% for the excessive care home deaths.  The Care Home issue has been a systematic problem for a long time that no government has properly addressed - and indeed that the public has not wished to think too much about in what we might have to pay through taxation - indeed has pushed back when the prospect of paying more for care of the elderly has been proposed.  But it is a truth that the Conservatives have been in power for ten years and the situation has not improved over these ten years - rather it has been exacerbated by the austerity programme.

And yet - Johnson chooses to point the finger at 'some' care homes and by implication blame those who run and work in these care homes - without accepting as a mistake anything that the government directed homes to do (sometimes through their proxies) - especially in the early weeks of the pandemic.  And the government _did _make decisions in respect of care homes that have clearly been mistaken, and that have contributed to (I will not say caused) the high number of deaths amongst the elderly.  But rather than apologise for these mistakes - they point the finger at those who were struggling to cope. Despicable.

And of course Johnson is incapable of speaking for himself in response to the very wide criticism he is receiving.  Well he wouldn't would he - so he sends out Sharma and Hancock....what a coward.

And of course those who deem it necessary to support Johnson and the government in all matters continue to do so, as they accuse others of being 'political'.  What a joke - if it were in the slightest bit funny - which it isn't.


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## rulefan (Jul 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Who are merely messengers for government...
		
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You are confused. The four NHS organisations are not government bodies. The Department of Health is but does not manage the NHS(s). Also Public Health England is.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes it is, funding of Social care has always been a problem. There are still council funded care homes but only for people not able to fund through their own wealth.
		
Click to expand...


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## drdel (Jul 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think (m)any are blaming Johnson and his crew 100% for the excessive care home deaths.  The Care Home issue has been a systematic problem for a long time that no government has properly addressed - and indeed that the public has not wished to think too much about in what we might have to pay through taxation - indeed has pushed back when the prospect of paying more for care of the elderly has been proposed.  But it is a truth that the Conservatives have been in power for ten years and the situation has not improved over these ten years - rather it has been exacerbated by the austerity programme.

And yet - Johnson chooses to point the finger at 'some' care homes and by implication blame those who run and work in these care homes - without accepting as a mistake anything that the government directed homes to do (sometimes through their proxies) - especially in the early weeks of the pandemic.  And the government _did _make decisions in respect of care homes that have clearly been mistaken, and that have contributed to (I will not say caused) the high number of deaths amongst the elderly.  But rather than apologise for these mistakes - they point the finger at those who were struggling to cope. Despicable.

And of course Johnson is incapable of speaking for himself in response to the very wide criticism he is receiving.  Well he wouldn't would he - so he sends out Sharma and Hancock....what a coward.

And of course those who deem it necessary to support Johnson and the government in all matters continue to do so, as they accuse others of being 'political'.  What a joke - if it were in the slightest bit funny - which it isn't.
		
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I look forward to the day when we can debate a point without the need to use derogatory comments or childish names for those whose opinions might be different.;


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## funkycoldmedina (Jul 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			I look forward to the day when we can debate a point without the need to use derogatory comments or childish names for those whose opinions might be different.;
		
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Amen to that............…......what do those on the right have against yoghurt?


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## AmandaJR (Jul 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			And again...Isn't it *Boris* that is being criticised for *his* handling of it? Excuse my confusion, but can you explain (as I can't understand) how a broadcasting organisation can 'handle' the epidemic? That surely IS something for the Government, in this case, to do. A broadcasting organisation can surely only provide 'coverage' of how it's being handled.
		
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I'll try! Boris criticised care homes. The BBC are outraged that he do such a thing. They criticised care homes...many times in the past. So to be outraged that he does the same as they have...

That's all I've got.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You are confused. The four NHS organisations are not government bodies. The Department of Health is but does not manage the NHS(s). Also Public Health England is.
		
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The absolute first responsibility of any government is the safety of the people... When there are failings in delivery, of any service, government cannot/should not hide behind the agencies it appoints/manages... Taking responsibility is part and parcel of government... Or, is that only for times we have a Labour government... 

When the last exercise, for pandemic preparations, was conducted there were a number of shortcomings identified... Government should have been all over that, like a rash, ensuring those issues were addressed and repaired... I am suggesting that's an important area of government... As, early on, Hancock tried to deflect the lack of preparations by blaming the last Labour government... Only for a report to surface that the last such exercise, under a Labour government, showed preparations were at a level that all governments should be seeking to achieve... So, one must ask why that level was not maintained under recent Conservative governments...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			The absolute first responsibility of any government is the safety of the people... When there are failings in delivery, of any service, government cannot/should not hide behind the agencies it appoints/manages... Taking responsibility is part and parcel of government... Or, is that only for times we have a Labour government...

When the last exercise, for pandemic preparations, was conducted there were a number of shortcomings identified... Government should have been all over that, like a rash, ensuring those issues were addressed and repaired... I am suggesting that's an important area of government... As, early on, Hancock tried to deflect the lack of preparations by blaming the last Labour government... Only for a report to surface that the last such exercise, under a Labour government, showed preparations were at a level that all governments should be seeking to achieve... *So, one must ask why that level was not maintained under recent Conservative governments..*.
		
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They had to pay off the eye watering debt inhereted from Labour.


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## pendodave (Jul 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They had to pay of the eye watering debt inhereted from Labour.
		
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Asinine...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Amen to that............…......what do those on the right have against yoghurt?
		
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They find it difficult to knit and hug.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jul 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They find it difficult to knit and hug.
		
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They shouldn't be so blinkered, it could go nicely with gammon.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They had to pay of the eye watering debt inhereted from Labour.
		
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Surprise, surprise... Now who'd have thought ten years on we are still at that level... Perhaps they should have resisted offering tax discounts to their best buddies if we were in that much trouble... Or, perhaps the debts were down to bankers getting ahead of themselves... But, you've kinda proved my point thank you... According to those that lean to the right problems when Labour are in government always their fault... But, when team tory are in Westminster the fault lies everywhere else but the tories… One day, perhaps, the blue rosette will come with a spine of honesty/responsibility...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Asinine...
		
Click to expand...

It was indeed an Asinine amount of debt


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Surprise, surprise... Now who'd have thought ten years on we are still at that level... Perhaps they should have resisted offering tax discounts to their best buddies if we were in that much trouble... Or, perhaps the debts were down to bankers getting ahead of themselves... But, you've kinda proved my point thank you... According to those that lean to the right problems when Labour are in government always their fault... But, when team tory are in Westminster the fault lies everywhere else but the tories… One day, perhaps, the blue rosette will come with a spine of honesty/responsibility...
		
Click to expand...

Brutal but fair


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			They shouldn't be so blinkered, it could go nicely with gammon.

Click to expand...

Mmm, not so sure about that, I'm quite partial to a nice piece of Gammon but preferably with an egg or a slice of pineapple. Yogurt is a bit wet and likely to get unstable under a bit of heat.


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm always offended.
		
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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think (m)any are blaming Johnson and his crew 100% for the excessive care home deaths.  The Care Home issue has been a systematic problem for a long time that no government has properly addressed - and indeed that the public has not wished to think too much about in what we might have to pay through taxation - indeed has pushed back when the prospect of paying more for care of the elderly has been proposed.  But it is a truth that the *Conservatives have been in power for ten years *and the situation has not improved over these ten years - rather it has been exacerbated by the austerity programme.

And yet - Johnson chooses to point the finger at 'some' care homes and by implication blame those who run and work in these care homes - without accepting as a mistake anything that the government directed homes to do (sometimes through their proxies) - especially in the early weeks of the pandemic.  And the government _did _make decisions in respect of care homes that have clearly been mistaken, and that have contributed to (I will not say caused) the high number of deaths amongst the elderly.  But rather than apologise for these mistakes - they point the finger at those who were struggling to cope. Despicable.

And of course Johnson is incapable of speaking for himself in response to the very wide criticism he is receiving.  Well he wouldn't would he - so he sends out Sharma and Hancock....what a coward.

And of course those who deem it necessary to support Johnson and the government in all matters continue to do so, as they accuse others of being 'political'.  What a joke - if it were in the slightest bit funny - which it isn't.
		
Click to expand...

Since when did the last 10 years become important...   
1) Always say - it was the same under Labour
2) The Tory austerity was caused by the Labour
3) The prev Tory govt has nothing to do with the current Tory govt.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Since when did the last 10 years become important...  
1) Always say - it was the same under Labour
2) The Tory austerity was caused by the Labour
3) The prev Tory govt has nothing to do with the current Tory govt.
		
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You're learning !


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Amen to that............…......what do those on the right have against yoghurt?
		
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Or the Krankies


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or the Krankies 

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Dont make me post the picture


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'll try! Boris criticised care homes. The BBC are outraged that he do such a thing. They criticised care homes...many times in the past. So to be outraged that he does the same as they have...

That's all I've got.
		
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Ahh! That makes sense to me now!

Though I believe the two 'criticism streams' are totally unrelated - so while valid for the Beeb to be criticising care homes for their poor service, it's ALSO valid to be taking issue with Boris for HIS criticism of them when 'he' simply dumped so many from the NHS without proper instructions/guidelines/funding for their ongoing recovery. If it turns out that the 20k deaths post treatment is anywhere the truth, then, as almost half the total figure, that's a scandalous abdication of responsibility!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2020)

The Brazilian leader desperately contesting Johnson and Trump for the 'worst Covid leader in the world ' title.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Brazilian leader desperately contesting Johnson and Trump for the 'worst Covid leader in the world ' title.

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Bolsonaro is out on his own in that 'race'!
Trump is consistent - Denial, BS-ing and bullying about how great his and US's handling of it is (it has been pretty diabolical, but that's partly due to idiotic folk insisting that their 'freedoms' matter more than health!).
Bojo is, imo, doing a very reasonable job of balancing the conflicting needs of combatting the virus and resurrecting the economy - though has made some blunders along the way. And I'm not a particular fan of him.

Btw. I don't seem to have received a reply about my proposed wager about him still being PM at Christmas! Or have you simply donated the tenner to H4H directly?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Bolsonaro is out on his own in that 'race'!
Trump is consistent - Denial, BS-ing and bullying about how great his and US's handling of it is (it has been pretty diabolical, but that's partly due to idiotic folk insisting that their 'freedoms' matter more than health!).
Bojo is, imo, doing a very reasonable job of balancing the conflicting needs of combatting the virus and resurrecting the economy - though has made some blunders along the way. And I'm not a particular fan of him.

Btw. I don't seem to have received a reply about my proposed wager about him still being PM at Christmas! Or have you simply donated the tenner to H4H directly?
		
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Sorry but I don't gamble.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ahh! That makes sense to me now!

Though I believe the two 'criticism streams' are totally unrelated - so while valid for the Beeb to be criticising care homes for their poor service, it's ALSO valid to be taking issue with Boris for HIS criticism of them when 'he' simply dumped so many from the NHS without proper instructions/guidelines/funding for their ongoing recovery. If it turns out that the 20k deaths post treatment is anywhere the truth, then, as almost half the total figure, that's a scandalous abdication of responsibility!
		
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Is it not the responsibility of the NHS for dumping old people from their care whilst still unwell.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry but I don't gamble.
		
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Nor recommend when you're wrong.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry but I don't gamble.
		
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Nor do I! That's not gambling though! It's a demonstration of your confidence (or lack thereof) in what you post!

But my point has been made! Even you don't believe that what you post will happen will happen!


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

I think BoJo will still be around...  we would have gone past Covid and the rallying cry would be to 'get brexit done'.. 

My confidence in him being around is based on
1) Brexit is a poison chalice - no one wants to touch it; so like lemmings everyone will wait for the current PM to be the one to jump 
2) There is no credible alternative - across the so called best of british MPs (irrespective of party)
3) BoJo will lie and cheat as long as he can be king... he does not care if brexit, covid or cummings happen - he is a survivor.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it not the responsibility of the NHS for dumping old people from their care whilst still unwell.
		
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Ultimately, it's BoJo's! As per the sign on Pres. Truman's desk!
And it seems (at least to me) to have been a 'policy' decision - so political.
Oh, and the NHS is overseen/controlled by Government through Department of Health _and Social Care_ - run by Matt Hancock.


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

From Twitter


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Nor do I! That's not gambling though! It's a demonstration of your confidence (or lack thereof) in what you post!

But my point has been made! Even you don't believe that what you post will happen will happen!
		
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Really, So why are you enticing me to make a bet with you.

 I think it might rain this afternoon,
Bet you £10 it does not. 

Checked through the forum rules and it does say that I am allowed to have an opinion.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
I think it might rain this afternoon,
Bet you £10 it does not. 
...
		
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Now that WOULD be gambling! Actually that would be a 'sure to lose' one too!

It wasn't 'enticement' btw. It was a 'money where your mouth is (fingers are)' reply!


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, So why are you enticing me to make a bet with you.

I think it might rain this afternoon,
Bet you £10 it does not. 

Checked through the forum rules and it does say that I am allowed to have an opinion.
		
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If you want to make your point more forceful(ly), (and who wouldn't (unless your not confident about the subject(s))), you should use more of these !!!!!!   !


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			...

Btw. I don't seem to have received a reply about my proposed wager about him still being PM at Christmas! Or have you simply donated the tenner to H4H directly?
		
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Jeremy Hunt seems intend on grabbing quite a bit of the limelight whenever he can - most recently yesterday in the HoC when questioning Hancock on current and ongoing testing policy for care homes.

But Johnson and his acolytes are shameless...and so Johnson - egged on by Cummings - will hang around like...[_complete with what is most appropriate_]


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ultimately, it's BoJo's! As per the sign on Pres. Truman's desk!
And it seems (at least to me) to have been a 'policy' decision - so political.
Oh, and the NHS is overseen/controlled by Government through Department of Health _and Social Care_ - run by Matt Hancock.
		
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That's stretching it somewhat by saying the buck stops with him. In that case every decision made throughout the political machinery is his personal responsibility.


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

What is DomCom's real job other than being BoJo's man.. It is worrying when the the MoD is being threathend by DomCom...    I am sure BoJo Brigade can defend this one too..   where do u draw the line?

assuming this is real >> 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280589864589721603


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's stretching it somewhat by saying the buck stops with him. In that case every decision made throughout the political machinery is his personal responsibility.
		
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Indeed.. gone are the days of taking responsibility, morals and values..   Welcome to the new normal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's stretching it somewhat by saying the buck stops with him.* In that case every decision made throughout the political machinery is his personal responsibility*.
		
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Yes, exactly that, he may not make every decision, but as Leader he has ultimate responsibility for those decisions.
He appoints the MP’s to his Government Cabinet positions and they are responsible for their areas.
If those areas fail he can remove those people, just like when they succeed he can take credit.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Indeed.. gone are the days of taking responsibility, morals and values..   Welcome to the new normal. 






Click to expand...

So someone in the NHS makes a bad decision then we should blame Boris for it and the people that made the decision get a free pass. Come on, how can anyone be held personally responsible for all decisions made by the complete state system. Truman didnt and neither could anyone else and it's not what he meant anyhow, he as the head of Government took responsibility for decisions made by government.  If a Surgeon decided to give  cancer breast surgery to women that didnt have cancer should we personally blame Boris 🤔


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's stretching it somewhat by saying the buck stops with him. In that case every decision made throughout the political machinery is his personal responsibility.
		
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Dissenters will always get into stretching things to absurdity. Actually since it is the Queen who invites/requests the ballot winners to form a Government and select a PM and Cabinet it's obvious the 'buck' stops with her!


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's stretching it somewhat by saying the buck stops with him. *In that case every decision made throughout the political machinery is his personal responsibility.*

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Twaddle! 
But certainly the _overall_ responsibility for decisions/actions is his - notwithstanding the slight clouding by the UK concept of 'Cabinet responsibility' that differs somewhat from the US political hierarchy/responsibilities.
Where else would 'the buck' (aka responsibility!) get passed to?


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			... Truman did*nt and neither could anyone else and it's not what he meant anyhow, he as the head of Government took responsibility for decisions made by government*.*...*

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You've just written/made/agreed the compelling argument of why you original reply was twaddle!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!
But certainly the _overall_ responsibility for decisions/actions is his - notwithstanding the slight clouding by the UK concept of 'Cabinet responsibility' that differs somewhat from the US political hierarchy/responsibilities.
Where else would 'the buck' (aka responsibility!) get passed to?
		
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As mentioned 'The Queen' but the kind of logic you're suggesting is utter 'Twaddle'


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			Dissenters will always get into stretching things to absurdity. Actually since it is the Queen who invites/requests the ballot winners to form a Government and select a PM and Cabinet it's obvious the 'buck' stops with her!
		
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Nothing to do with dissenters, it’s the same for any Political Leader regardless of Party or Country etc.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			As mentioned 'The Queen' but the kind of logic you're suggesting is utter 'Twaddle'
		
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A few hundred years ago, maybe, but not these days! The monarch 'reigns' but doesn't 'rule' these days!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			A few hundred years ago, maybe, but not these days! The monarch 'reigns' but doesn't 'rule' these days!
		
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Yes, it's as silly as personally Blaming Boris for every decision made in the State system, as I said 'Twaddle'


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2020)

drdel said:



*Dissenters will always get into stretching things to absurdity.* Actually since it is the Queen who invites/requests the ballot winners to form a Government and select a PM and Cabinet it's obvious the 'buck' stops with her!
		
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Genesis 1:1


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			Dissenters will always get into stretching things to absurdity. Actually since it is the Queen who invites/requests the ballot winners to form a Government and select a PM and Cabinet it's obvious the 'buck' stops with her!
		
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Ceremonially maybe - and I doubt even there. In practice, she is compelled to follow procedure (has no choice) therefore 'the buck' never gets to her - except for a few very specific procedural tasks/situations!


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, it's as silly as personally Blaming Boris for every decision made in the State system, as I said 'Twaddle'
		
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Yes, it would indeed be silly to do so! However, the only poster who has suggested that is you!


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



Nothing to do with dissenters, it’s the same for any Political Leader regardless of Party or Country etc.
		
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Mine was not a political biased statement. "Dissenters" was simply the term I used to define those whose chose to take and opposing view - in this case whether a PM (currently a Tory) can be held responsible for ALL decisions. there is a difference between responsibility and accountability.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Genesis 1:1  

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It always amuses me when I see National Lighting's (a Trading Name) referencing to their 'official' Company Name - Genesis 1:3 Limited.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ceremonially maybe - and I doubt even there. In practice, she is compelled to follow procedure (has no choice) therefore 'the buck' never gets to her - except for a few very specific procedural tasks/situations!
		
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Ziiiiiiiiip !!!!!!!  He used the comment to show how silly it is to push the blame for every decision on the PM and to say the buck for every decision stops with him.


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ceremonially maybe - and I doubt even there. In practice, she is compelled to follow procedure (has no choice) therefore 'the buck' never gets to her - except for a few very specific procedural tasks/situations!
		
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I realise your driving aim seems to be a desire to be the font of all knowledge and strive to put others down. However, your wrong - UK does not have a written constitution. HRH the Queen is not compelled to do anything and she has not always followed convention. HM Queen is Head of State and 'Opens' Parliamentary Sessions. She invites a PM to run the country on her behalf having allowed the citizens the opportunity to express their opinion.

Anyway, enough of a tangent.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Ziiiiiiiiip !!!!!!!  He used the comment to show how silly it is to push the blame for every decision on the PM and to say the buck for every decision stops with him.
		
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Nobody (except perhaps you) is 'pushing blame' on the PM (well, Government) - merely 'ultimate responsibility'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

Later today Rishi Sunak is going to announce special measures for 18-24yr olds - and that is most welcome - well done chancellor.

However what is to be done for everyone else who has already lost, or will lose, their jobs in the coming months and faced with long term unemployment.

All of these newly unemployed will have to rely upon Universal Credit whilst they look for a job - which is of course what we expect all on UC to be doing.  But UC is not enough to live on - far from it - and maybe deliberately so to encourage those claiming it to get a job.

But in the current economic circumstances and a climate of huge redundancies and many more to come when the furlough scheme changes 1st August and employees have to part fund the furlough of employees - getting a new job is going to be extremely difficult - no matter how hard any individual might try.

So what happens to and for those on UC with no savings to draw upon (and that is going to be most of the lower paid) to keep their heads above water?  It is very difficult.

And yes - I have a personal interest in what the chancellor might do as both my son and his partner are now unemployed with no income and no savings.  But they are just an example of the situation that many will face.

Their UC is £1069/month and they would get £94 towards their council tax bill of £105/month - currently on hold but building up and will have to be paid (with no income difficult to see how he fills the gap - anyway).  Their rent takes ~50% of their UC.  Assuming £30/month power and gas. Water - £35/month; £20/month to Council Tax. 

That leaves about £450/month for all other expenditure - about £105/week.  Food, drink, clothes, toiletries, household essentials, broadband - running a car or public transport...repayment of council tax owed..£105/week.

If he has paid enough NI over the last two years he'd get a further £100 a month through JSA - but doubt he has as his income has been below the NI threshold much of the time over the last two years.

Not much room for living there.  But that's just simply the bare facts of living on UC - and what very many will be faced with...OK for a short time whilst loking for a new job - but not much fun for the longer term...

So what could/should the Chancellor do?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Nobody (except perhaps you) is 'pushing blame' on the PM (well, Government) - merely 'ultimate responsibility'!
		
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You must be reading a different thread.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			Mine was not a political biased statement. "Dissenters" was simply the term I used to define those whose chose to take and opposing view - in this case whether a PM (currently a Tory) can be held responsible for ALL decisions. there is a difference between responsibility and accountability.
		
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Your comment may not of been, but as we are on a political thread and the discussion was about decisions that affect thousands of lives.

A PM is ultimately responsible/accountable (Yes I understand the difference) for the actions of their appointed Ministers.

Nobody was saying or attempting to say a PM is responsible for a Clerk buying the wrong coffee for the machine.

Dragging it to that level to prove a point is deflection.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			I realise your driving aim seems to be a desire to be the font of all knowledge and strive to put others down...
		
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More twaddle!

Btw. While I agree that much of The Queen is not 'required' to act in a particular way, she has always acted 'by convention' _on important matters_ - like Royal Assent (not denied since 1708) or how Governments are 'invited to be formed'! If you have an example of an important 'breach of convention' by her, please enlighten me/us.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Later today Rishi Sunak is going to announce special measures for 18-24yr olds - and that is most welcome - well done chancellor.

However what is to be done for everyone else who has already lost, or will lose, their jobs in the coming months and faced with long term unemployment.

All of these newly unemployed will have to rely upon Universal Credit whilst they look for a job - which is of course what we expect all on UC to be doing.  But UC is not enough to live on - far from it - and maybe deliberately so to encourage those claiming it to get a job.

But in the current economic circumstances and a climate of huge redundancies and many more to come when the furlough scheme changes 1st August and employees have to part fund the furlough of employees - getting a new job is going to be extremely difficult - no matter how hard any individual might try.

So what happens to and for those on UC with no savings to draw upon (and that is going to be most of the lower paid) to keep their heads above water?  It is very difficult.

And yes - I have a personal interest in what the chancellor might do as both my son and his partner are now unemployed with no income and no savings.  But they are just an example of the situation that many will face.

Their UC is £1069/month and they would get £94 towards their council tax bill of £105/month - currently on hold but building up and will have to be paid (with no income difficult to see how he fills the gap - anyway).  Their rent takes ~50% of their UC.  Assuming £30/month power and gas. Water - £35/month; £20/month to Council Tax.

That leaves about £450/month for all other expenditure - about £105/week.  Food, drink, clothes, toiletries, household essentials, broadband - running a car or public transport...repayment of council tax owed..£105/week.

If he has paid enough NI over the last two years he'd get a further £100 a month through JSA - but doubt he has as his income has been below the NI threshold much of the time over the last two years.

Not much room for living there.  But that's just simply the bare facts of living on UC - and what very many will be faced with...OK for a short time whilst loking for a new job - but not much fun for the longer term...

So what could/should the Chancellor do?
		
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Wave a magic wand?
Your Son and his partner need to get up and be realistic about finding work, there is still some out there and if they're on UC it has a taper system as its removed when you work.  They dont seem to have children so they are only responsible for themselves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Wave a magic wand?
Your Son and his partner need to get up and be realistic about finding work, there is still some out there and if they're on UC it has a taper system as its removed when you work.  They dont seem to have children so they are only responsible for themselves.
		
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Thought that might be the sort of response I'd get from some.  As it happens my son is 'getting out there looking' and his partner is under 25 so hopefully will be able to benefit from what Sunak comes up with this afternoon.  And i repeat - well done Sunak on recognising the problems that age group face in seeking work - even though there is still some out there.

Sunak is indeed 'waving a magic wand' for that age group - as he has done for the employed over the last 3 months.  Sunak has a magic wand - he can do whatever he wants to do if he decides to do it,

But so predictable and so easy to say isn't it - the old and apparently still the Tory way - 'they should take responsibility for themselves' - as Tebbit said, 'get on their bike' - easy to say when you are not having to live off £112/week as you hunt; whist jobs are disappearing out of the door in great numbers, and the number looking for new work is growing massively.

So that's it then.  All those on amounts such as £112/week to live on will just have to 'suck it up' and get on with looking for work. There is still _some _out there...apparently.  Oh yes.  So easy to say.  But it is said. Tough.

I note - that given the circumstances we will not allow our son to get mired in the misery, despair and depression that comes from having to live off that amount of money for any significant period of time as they look for work.  His circumstances are not of his making.  We will help him out as he looks.

*But there are many hundreds of thousands out there who will not be so fortunate. * And that is more to the point I am highlighting in respect of UC.  You can only barely live off it - and that living is not sustainable for any significant period of time without consequences.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thought that might be the sort of response I'd get from some.  As it happens my son is 'getting out there looking' and his partner is under 25 so hopefully will be able to benefit from what Sunak comes up with this afternoon.  And i repeat - well done Sunak on recognising the problems that age group face in seeking work - even though there is still some out there.

Sunak is indeed 'waving a magic wand' for that age group - as he has done for the employed over the last 3 months.  Sunak has a magic wand - he can do whatever he wants to do if he decides to do it,

But so predictable and so easy to say isn't it - the old and apparently still the Tory way - 'they should take responsibility for themselves' - as Tebbit said, 'get on their bike' - easy to say when you are not having to live off £112/week as you hunt; whist jobs are disappearing out of the door in great numbers, and the number looking for new work is growing massively.

So that's it then.  All those on amounts such as £112/week to live on will just have to 'suck it up' and get on with looking for work. There is still _some _out there...apparently.  Oh yes.  So easy to say.  But it is said. Tough.

I note - that given the circumstances we will not allow our son to get mired in the misery and despair coming from having to live off that amount of money for any significant period of time as they look for work.  His circumstances are not of his making.  We will help him out as he looks.  But there are many hundreds of thousands out there who will not be so fortunate.
		
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What type of response did you expect, you have been posting about the hard times your son and girlfriend have been going through for years now, it just seems like they both need a good dose of reality and should be grateful the state is paying all their living costs. How much does a pensioner get to live on?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not much room for living there.  But that's just simply the bare facts of living on UC - and what very many will be faced with...OK for a short time whilst loking for a new job - but not much fun for the longer term...

So what could/should the Chancellor do?
		
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It is not meant to be fun, it is a safety net. If it was fun then there would be little incentive to get off it. The aim is to enable the basics only, not lifes added bonuses. If you want those then you need to work.

It is going to be tough for a good while for a good number of people but increasing UC to make life more comfortable for everyone on it is not the answer. That will have an unintended consequence that we do not want.

In answer to your last question, nothing towards UC, help kick start the economy and create an environment where work/jobs is more readily available.


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## Slab (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thought that might be the sort of response I'd get from some.  As it happens my son is 'getting out there looking' and his partner is under 25 so hopefully will be able to benefit from what Sunak comes up with this afternoon.  And i repeat - well done Sunak on recognising the problems that age group face in seeking work - even though there is still some out there.

Sunak is indeed 'waving a magic wand' for that age group - as he has done for the employed over the last 3 months.  Sunak has a magic wand - he can do whatever he wants to do if he decides to do it,

But so predictable and so easy to say isn't it - the old and apparently still the Tory way - 'they should take responsibility for themselves' - as Tebbit said, 'get on their bike' - easy to say when you are not having to live off £112/week as you hunt; whist jobs are disappearing out of the door in great numbers, and the number looking for new work is growing massively.

So that's it then.  All those on amounts such as £112/week to live on will just have to 'suck it up' and get on with looking for work. There is still _some _out there...apparently.  Oh yes.  So easy to say.  But it is said. Tough.

I note - that given the circumstances we will not allow our son to get mired in the misery, despair and depression that comes from having to live off that amount of money for any significant period of time as they look for work.  His circumstances are not of his making.  We will help him out as he looks.

*But there are many hundreds of thousands out there who will not be so fortunate. * And that is more to the point I am highlighting in respect of UC.  You can only barely live off it - and that living is not sustainable for any significant period of time without consequences.
		
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I think all you can do is look after your own family (which is what you're doing). If you have real anxiety and a desire to change what's currently done to support unemployed of all ages then you'll have to stand for election and make it happen for future unemployed


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## DanFST (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*But there are many hundreds of thousands out there who will not be so fortunate. * And that is more to the point I am highlighting in respect of UC.  You can only barely live off it - and that living is not sustainable for any significant period of time without consequences.
		
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I lived off £100 a week for over a year in London, whilst starting my career (no uni degree), It's not too bad at all, even better if I was at home, no need to spend and go out.

You have to make the most of free beers! (Olio and togoodtogo are great apps also, you can pick up food from restaurants and cafes for cheap before they throw it out)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

Really liking what I am hearing from Sunak...recognising the problems of unemployment - creating jobs, training schemes and support to employers.  I can listen to Sunak and believe and trust in what he says.  I compare and contrast with a.n.other that I have been listening to in the last couple of hours.

But Sunak.  He is waving his magic wand - just waved it on stamp duty


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really liking what I am hearing from Sunak...recognising the problems of unemployment - creating jobs, training schemes and support to employers.  I can listen to Sunak and believe and trust in what he says.  I compare and contrast with a.n.other that I have been listening to in the last couple of hours.

But Sunak.  He is waving his magic wand - just waved it on stamp duty 

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But all Government decisions are Boris's personal responsibility so surely you will be patting his back just like you criticise him for anything you dont like.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I lived off £100 a week for over a year in London, whilst starting my career (no uni degree), It's not too bad at all, even better if I was at home, no need to spend and go out.

You have to make the most of free beers! (Olio and togoodtogo are great apps also, you can pick up food from restaurants and cafes for cheap before they throw it out)
		
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But it's not really much of a way to live is it (and my example was £112 a week for two).  And I am thinking that free food and drink will be less easy to come by in a hammered (today) Sheffield than in a prosperous (as was) London.  But I agree - like you my son and his partner do not go out - and he is excellent getting free stuff through Facebook, Gumtree and other sites.  Yes you can survive while you look for work - but that's about the best of it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But all Government decisions are Boris's personal responsibility so surely you will be patting his back just like you crisis him for anything you dont like.
		
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Yes indeed.  But what you do good does not absolve you from your lies and deceits.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes indeed.  But what you do good does not absolve you from your lies and deceits.
		
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Surely the reverse also applies.


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So someone in the NHS makes a bad decision then we should blame Boris for it and the people that made the decision get a free pass. Come on, how can anyone be held personally responsible for all decisions made by the complete state system. Truman didnt and neither could anyone else and it's not what he meant anyhow, he as the head of Government took responsibility for decisions made by government.  If a Surgeon decided to give  cancer breast surgery to women that didnt have cancer should we personally blame Boris 🤔
		
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Chancellor shakes the magic money tree ... i guess we cant thank Boris for that...  Well done Sunak


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2020)

Your son has his health, a loving partner, bank of mum and dad and no doubt his old room to move back into if he doesn't find a job quickly. And he's only 28, plenty of time for several new careers. I'm sure there are many who are worse off and would swap places with him in a heartbeat.
How about the armed forces? Get paid while you train, good prospects and a pension.

But if his answer to words of encouragement is a smack in the mouth, then I'd stay out of it.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Chancellor shakes the magic money tree ... i guess we cant thank Boris for that...  Well done Sunak
		
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Made me chuckle


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280837474982547456


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it's not really much of a way to live is it (and my example was £112 a week for two).  And I am thinking that free food and drink will be less easy to come by in a hammered (today) Sheffield than in a prosperous (as was) London.  But I agree - like you my son and his partner do not go out - and he is excellent getting free stuff through Facebook, Gumtree and other sites.  Yes you can survive while you look for work - but that's about the best of it.
		
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Still far better than many and to be honest your son and partner have to stand on their own two feet at some point even if that is on UC. it's hard but then life can be at times. You can't expect the government of other side of the political spectrum to be able to ensure the well being of all and especially in light of a global pandemic that has made the new norm a world away from what we're use to. Sadly there are thousand out there who are also redundant and looking for work and not all will be baled out by bank of mum and dad again


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## pendodave (Jul 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Still far better than many and to be honest your son and partner have to stand on their own two feet at some point even if that is on UC. it's hard but then life can be at times. You can't expect the government of other side of the political spectrum to be able to ensure the well being of all and especially in light of a global pandemic that has made the new norm a world away from what we're use to. Sadly there are thousand out there who are also redundant and looking for work and not all will be baled out by bank of mum and dad again
		
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To be clear, the goverment has decreed that silh jnr's job is illegal. And it is doing so in the mistaken belief that it can eliminate all risk ( but only from one thing).
In this instance I think the young lad (and millions of others) has every right to be p****d off.
If you were made summarily unemployed tomorrow at the whim of Matt Hancock I suspect you would be too....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2020)

With no disrespect to you SILH, can you keep your personal family business in another thread or even a stand alone thread? As everytime you bring him in to a thread it is taken off topic and the same familiar faces can’t wait to jump in and tell your family how to live.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the reverse also applies.
		
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That your lies and deceits do not negate the good you do? 

Indeed they don't.  But they do undermine any good you do - so best to admit to your lies and deceits and stop perpetrating more


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			With no disrespect to you SILH, can you keep your personal family business in another thread or even a stand alone thread? As everytime you bring him in to a thread it is taken off topic and the same familiar faces can’t wait to jump in and tell your family how to live.
		
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I simply use my son and his partner as an example - as through them I know the truth of depending upon UC - a truth that many are having to face up to...that it is no bed of roses (as it shouldn't be)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Still far better than many and to be honest your son and partner have to stand on their own two feet at some point even if that is on UC. it's hard but then life can be at times. You can't expect the government of other side of the political spectrum to be able to ensure the well being of all and especially in light of a global pandemic that has made the new norm a world away from what we're use to. Sadly there are thousand out there who are also redundant and looking for work and not all will be baled out by bank of mum and dad again
		
Click to expand...

So what was the chancellor doing today if not accepting that it is frankly going to be difficult for those being made unemployed or newly entering the employment market to find their way (back) into work...that these newly unemployed need help.  And many of those have absolutely nowhere else to go for help and support other than to the government.   

Those of us fortunate to have stable ongoing employment and income stand aside and say 'sorry - your life may now be rubbish through no fault of your own - but there is nothing much more that we can do - it's up to you'.  Well some might say that by I can't.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply use my son and his partner as an example - as through them I know the truth of depending upon UC - a truth that many are having to face up to...that it is no bed of roses (as it shouldn't be)
		
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Sadly, your reasons are an irrelevance to some. They’d rather play the poster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Your son has his health, a loving partner, bank of mum and dad and no doubt his old room to move back into if he doesn't find a job quickly. And he's only 28, plenty of time for several new careers. *I'm sure there are many who are worse off and would swap places with him in a heartbeat.*
How about the armed forces? Get paid while you train, good prospects and a pension.

But if his answer to words of encouragement is a smack in the mouth, then I'd stay out of it.
		
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You are quite right - and that is exactly the point.  What do we do for those who are that much worse off?  Do we walk by or are we the Samaritan?


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are quite right - and that is exactly the point.  What do we do for those who are that much worse off?  Do we walk by or are we the Samaritan?
		
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What would you like to see happen?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what was the chancellor doing today if not accepting that it is frankly going to be difficult for those being made unemployed or newly entering the employment market to find their way (back) into work...that these newly unemployed need help.  And many of those have absolutely nowhere else to go for help and support other than to the government.  

Those of us fortunate to have stable ongoing employment and income stand aside and say 'sorry - your life may now be rubbish through no fault of your own - but there is nothing much more that we can do - it's up to you'.  Well some might say that by I can't.
		
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Hasn't it always been the same though. I've been made redundant twice when firms have made cut-backs. I had no choice to simply look for work and claim JSA as it was then. Out of work through no fault of my own. When I left school in 83 unemployment was running around 11.3% https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms  and so it was hard. At that time I was able to be supported by my mum and dad as you've done for your son but there was still the need to get out and find work and make a contribution to the household bills and for my own well being. 

Those of us fortunate to have stable ongoing employment and income stand aside and say 'sorry - your life may now be rubbish through no fault of your own - but there is nothing much more that we can do - it's up to you'.  Well some might say that by I can't. - I find this poor. Sadly there is no magic wand no matter what the Chancellor and government do. No-one knew what effect the global pandemic would have in terms of duration and severity to the economy. There are thousands in the same boat, some far worse off and no-one to support them. The cold hard fact is there is only so much support any government can give.


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what was the chancellor doing today if not accepting that it is frankly going to be difficult for those being made unemployed or newly entering the employment market to find their way (back) into work...that these newly unemployed need help.  And many of those have absolutely nowhere else to go for help and support other than to the government.   

Those of us fortunate to have stable ongoing employment and income stand aside and say 'sorry - your life may now be rubbish through no fault of your own - but there is nothing much more that we can do - it's up to you'.  Well some might say that by I can't.
		
Click to expand...

Many on here have expressed sympathy for your son's situation. However it does seem that he ignores advice to get out of a fickle industry. If that is his decision then he will have to take the knocks. There are jobs out there but there are too many of the 'self entitled' to whom the idea of something manual/unskilled is below their dignity. For two apparently intelligent young people to be out of work is very bad luck, bad planning or self induced.

The benefit system is a basic safety net and is not meant to be a 'carry on as before' way of life.

The Government is addressing an exceptional set of circumstances with a new virus impacting the economy: there are limits to spending and borrowing will need to be repaid and those that are capable of working should does at any task that is available. 

You continually personally insult and berate the PM; laying all manner of issues at his door because he sits at the head of Cabinet. Then you congratulate the Chancellor for giving/investing taxpayers' cash and heavy borrowing, surely you should also thank the PM who has signed it off.


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

Are the new Tories turned into the new Labour?  Big State and all that..    
I am glad we dont have Labour in power at the moment, else it would be beaten to death by the Tories for making the state bigger


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			Small fact - The PM did not discharge anyone back to Care Homes that was done by medical staff at NHS Trusts - the same Trusts who were advised several years ago to hold stocks of PPE but didn't bother and instead upped the pay and levels of management.
		
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Well, I didn't mean that Johnson personally did a fricking ward round with the ward sister. The DH, which Johnson has overall responsibility for,  pushed NHS Trusts to clear out beds, and issued the terms under which they should do so. It did not include testing. 

The responsibility for pandemic planning lies with Govt, not individual NHS Trusts, but following the 2016 planning exercise, the Govt did sod all.


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## bobmac (Jul 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			I realise your driving aim seems to be a desire to be the font of all knowledge and strive to put others down.
		
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Foxholer said:



			More twaddle!
		
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It's not twaddle, its what you do.


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			With no disrespect to you SILH, can you keep your personal family business in another thread or even a stand alone thread? As everytime you bring him in to a thread it is taken off topic and the same familiar faces can’t wait to jump in and tell your family how to live.
		
Click to expand...

With the greatest respect Paul, if Hogie posts up any example its fair game to comment on, positively or negatively. I was blunt in my last reply to him when he did, not playing the poster, but because I felt he was not doing him any favours in the long term. It was an honest opinion, given without any malice aforethought. He replied sharply, which I had no problem with at all, and agreed with most of his reply.

However, if he continues to use personal examples he must accept that people will reply as they see fit. Some might agree with him, and in the main I do, but those who don't are fully entitled to reply as they see fit. Whether that reply is viewed as "fit" is for any other reader to decide.


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, I didn't mean that Johnson personally did a fricking ward round with the ward sister. The DH, which Johnson has overall responsibility for,  pushed NHS Trusts to clear out beds, and issued the terms under which they should do so. It did not include testing.

The responsibility for pandemic planning lies with Govt, not individual NHS Trusts, but following the 2016 planning exercise, the Govt did sod all.
		
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The government may have asked the NHS to clear out beds but it was the decision of the clinicians which beds were cleared.


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## Kellfire (Jul 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The government may have asked the NHS to clear out beds but it was the decision of the clinicians which beds were cleared.
		
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What a massive leap of whataboutery. What’s next? Blame the old people for being old?


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## pendodave (Jul 8, 2020)

There's a lot of "didn't know what the effect on the economy" and "caused by covid" tripping off the tongue in the last few posts.
Let's be clear, lest BJ and the toryboyz on here try and forget it:
The horrific damage to the economy was completely predictable. As night follows day.
It was caused by grotesquely disproportionate and short sighted govt policies.
Carry on...


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What a massive leap of whataboutery. What’s next? Blame the old people for being old?
		
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We get blamed for everything else slow play, smelling of wee, being grumpy...


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## rudebhoy (Jul 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The government may have asked the NHS to clear out beds but it was the decision of the clinicians which beds were cleared.
		
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Is that a barrel I can hear being scraped?


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## Kellfire (Jul 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We get blamed for everything else slow play, smelling of wee, being grumpy...

Click to expand...

And we all know what age group doomed us to Brexit. 😘


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			And we all know what age group doomed us to Brexit. 😘
		
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Don't blame me for that one, or Hogie. We voted Remain, although we probably didn't know what we were voting for


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Is that a barrel I can hear being scraped?
		
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No but if you have information to the contrary feel free to disprove it.


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## Kellfire (Jul 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Don't blame me for that one, or Hogie. We voted Remain, although we probably didn't know what we were voting for

Click to expand...

Probably your children and grandchildren. ❤️


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What a massive leap of whataboutery. What’s next? Blame the old people for being old?
		
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So were is the whataboutary, are you saying that the clinical decisions on patient care is now at government level and has been taken out of doctors hands. Interesting.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			With the greatest respect Paul, if Hogie posts up any example its fair game to comment on, positively or negatively. I was blunt in my last reply to him when he did, not playing the poster, but because I felt he was not doing him any favours in the long term. It was an honest opinion, given without any malice aforethought. He replied sharply, which I had no problem with at all, and agreed with most of his reply.

However, if he continues to use personal examples he must accept that people will reply as they see fit. Some might agree with him, and in the main I do, but those who don't are fully entitled to reply as they see fit. Whether that reply is viewed as "fit" is for any other reader to decide.
		
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I agree Bri, hence suggesting he starts his own thread about his son, the problem is the replies take the thread off track.
I’ve no sympathy with silh, he opens the door and people step through, I do question some of the replies though when they are from some who add nothing else to the thread.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			And we all know what age group doomed us to Brexit. 😘
		
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Old lives matter, you are so Agest.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2020)

pendodave said:



			There's a lot of "didn't know what the effect on the economy" and "caused by covid" tripping off the tongue in the last few posts.
Let's be clear, lest BJ and the toryboyz on here try and forget it:
The horrific damage to the economy was completely predictable. As night follows day.
It was caused by grotesquely disproportionate and short sighted govt policies.
Carry on...
		
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Oh yes, that 'preventing the virus overwhelming the NHS' policy, very shortsighted 🙄
'Toryboyz'  is that your best putdown 🤭


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## chrisd (Jul 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Old lives matter, you are so Agest.
		
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We were just putting right what, back in the mid 70's, the oldies were conned into voting for 😖


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			It's not twaddle, _its what you do_.
		
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It may be _your opinion_ that it's _what  _I do, but that's simply _your_ opinion, and there's a saying about how common and variable those are!
My reply was refuting the assertion about _why_ ! So I'll stick with my original description thanks!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 8, 2020)

So I have no idea what to make of our chanchler. He seems blooming fantastic. Almost an anti Tory. Going for growth rather than cut cut cut. Seems likeable and seems to have the right issues on the agenda.

However he was Cummings pick.. has the advisers he wanted.. can't stand Cummings at all. Yet it's almost like it works? So confusing.

Will see what happens over the next few budgets but this one is good.

Why can't the leader have this much respect and professionalism? Much like starma in a way just respectable and carries himself well. Rather than the buffoon 

I'd like to see him lead the Tories against starmia so we have 2 completely creditable choices.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 8, 2020)

pendodave said:



			There's a lot of "didn't know what the effect on the economy" and "caused by covid" tripping off the tongue in the last few posts.
Let's be clear, lest BJ and the toryboyz on here try and forget it:
The horrific damage to the economy was completely predictable. As night follows day.
It was caused by grotesquely disproportionate and short sighted govt policies.
Carry on...
		
Click to expand...

Crap- it was caused by Covid. It may have been predictable , but the virus wasn't going to be any different from what it did , what it does, and what it will do until we (hopefully ) get a vaccine.
Actions are now being taken to fight the effects on the economy by this government , headed by Boris, and explained by the Chancellor. Actions which not many would have expected from a Tory government, even lifelong supporters of it.
But, no doubt, these efforts will be attacked because of who are making them, the "enemy" that can do no right.
I have never seen as much venom and refusal to acknowledge credit where it's due as I have in the last few months, both on this forum and ,latterly,from H.M 
Opposition.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2020)

One day team tory will grasp the benefits of the six P's...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2020)

So those 10 years of Tory austerity we all struggled through were just an exercise in Tory ideology.
The money tree was available all along.

BTW it now looks like the testing numbers in E&W were just made up to fit the Tory agenda.
I am certain that will come as no great surprise to most sensible folk.


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## Old Skier (Jul 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So those 10 years of Tory austerity we all struggled through were just an exercise in Tory ideology.
The money tree was available all along.

BTW it now looks like the testing numbers in E&W were just made up to fit the Tory agenda.
I am certain that will come as no great surprise to most sensible folk.
		
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Perhaps a few branches are there because of austerity.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The government may have asked the NHS to clear out beds but it was the decision of the clinicians which beds were cleared.
		
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No, it was care home residents being returned to care homes. And there would have been less need to clear anybody out if successive Tory Govts had not run NHS bed numbers down to the lowest amongst western civilised countries.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Crap- it was caused by Covid. It may have been predictable , but the virus wasn't going to be any different from what it did , what it does, and what it will do until we (hopefully ) get a vaccine.
Actions are now being taken to fight the effects on the economy by this government , headed by Boris, and explained by the Chancellor. Actions which not many would have expected from a Tory government, even lifelong supporters of it.
But, no doubt, these efforts will be attacked because of who are making them, the "enemy" that can do no right.
I have never seen as much venom and refusal to acknowledge credit where it's due as I have in the last few months, both on this forum and ,latterly,from H.M
Opposition.
		
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Ok, explain how the pigheaded refusal to extend transition will help the economy. It won't, and even Liz Truss is worried. When Liz Truss is worried, we are screwed. 

The UK economy will be crippled by Covid and the end of transition will kick its crutches away. Certainty is not welcome if it is certainty of further collapse.

The Tory Govt had no choice but to throw money at Covid - every other economy is doing so too. Lets see how they pay for it. And don't forget the fat contracts wasted on Tory donors. Its a wonder Wetherspoons didn't get the contract to make a vaccine. God knows their places incubate enough micro-organisms.


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## Old Skier (Jul 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, it was care home residents being returned to care homes. And there would have been less need to clear anybody out if successive Tory Govts had not run NHS bed numbers down to the lowest amongst western civilised countries.
		
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I would accept your argument if you had said successive governments.

It was not just the elderly who clinicians decided were suitable for discharge from hospital care.


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## DRW (Jul 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, it was care home residents being returned to care homes. And there would have been less need to clear anybody out* if successive Tory Govts *had not run NHS bed numbers down to the lowest amongst western civilised countries.
		
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That's isn't quite true, it went on whilst labour was in power as well btw.

Its something I looked at a while ago :- (goto figure/chart 4 on the first link for since 1987/88). 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbers

https://www.statista.com/statistics/473264/number-of-hospital-beds-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/


Sure a fair reason is also down to key hole surgery/pregnancy stays and better surgery being done on day stays now.

I had my gall bladder out on key hole, would have been a slash you open job in the 1980s and a stay in hospital, as example.


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2020)

In 2000 there were 240,144 hospital beds in the UK.
10 years later in 2010 there were 183,849, a reduction of 56,295 under Labour.
10 years later in 2020 there are 170,548,  a reduction of 13,301 under Conservative


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## DRW (Jul 9, 2020)

I wonder if Sunak has aspirations of being PM/head of the Tories. He has consistently performed well during the crisis(ie. the way you talks to people and his thoughts when he talks, and 'not the easy giving away money side').

Will be interesting to see how he performs and how he is seen as time unfolds and no doubt tax increases are implemented in the coming year or so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			In 2000 there were 240,144 hospital beds in the UK.
10 years later in 2010 there were 183,849, a reduction of 56,295 under Labour.
10 years later in 2020 there are 170,548,  a reduction of 13,301 under Conservative
		
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Using DRW’s link the biggest drop was from 87/88 to 96/97 of over 80,000 under the tories! Did you purposely leave that figure off as it doesn’t suit the narrative?

There was also an increase of beds under the Labour Government according to the link!

Statistics, damn statistics.


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Using DRW’s link the biggest drop was from 87/88 to 96/97 of over 80,000 under the tories! Did you purposely leave that figure off as it doesn’t suit the narrative?

Click to expand...

No.
The information I found only went back to 2000
https://www.statista.com/statistics/473264/number-of-hospital-beds-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			No.
The information I found only went back to 2000
https://www.statista.com/statistics/473264/number-of-hospital-beds-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

Click to expand...

Oh, you only clicked 1 of his links.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jul 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			In 2000 there were 240,144 hospital beds in the UK.
10 years later in 2010 there were 183,849, a reduction of 56,295 under Labour.
10 years later in 2020 there are 170,548,  a reduction of 13,301 under Conservative
		
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It's interesting how you've interpreted that data. The GE was in 2010 so half of the year the Conservative coalition were in power. There is also asterisk on the link you used which doesn't appear to be explained below the numbers but on DRW's other link it appears in 2010 there was a new way of collating the data.
Labour's last full year in government the figure was 203,000 a drop of 37,000 beds in 10 years unless you definitely know the reason for the drastic drop in 2010 was Labour, Conservative or new data definitions.


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Oh, you only clicked 1 of his links.

Click to expand...

I read Ethans claim about the number of hospital beds so I decided to check myself.
It took me about half an hour to find the figures and posted my reply. I didn't see DRWs post until after I posted so no, I didn't click on either of his links


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			In 2000 there were 240,144 hospital beds in the UK.
10 years later in 2010 there were 183,849, a reduction of 56,295 under Labour.
10 years later in 2020 there are 170,548,  a reduction of 13,301 under Conservative
		
Click to expand...

Numbers of hospital beds, on its own, is not a particularly useful stat. What are you trying to measure - if anything?
Here's an article from an independent organisation that expands the above. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbers
I can certainly vouch for throughput for Hip Replacement Surgery - home 2nd day after op! That used to involve a much longer stay in hospital!

Edit: The limk in thisd post is the same as the one DRW posted.
Btw. If you read a little further down the link you used for the number-of-beds stats, it states that that the number of admissions has remained pretty constant - at around 1.49M/quarter since 2014. and that's why simply using number of beds is not particularly useful.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			...
But, no doubt, these efforts will be attacked because of who are making them, the "enemy" that can do no right.
I have never seen as much venom and refusal to acknowledge credit where it's due as I have in the last few months, both on this forum and ,latterly,from H.M
Opposition.
		
Click to expand...

It's the Conservatives turn to get hit by a global disaster completely outwith their control - as happened to Labour with the Lehman et al meltdown! It'll be interesting to see how each party - and that fickle bunch 'the Electorate' - reacts to the fallout/stagnation/shrinkage of the economy that will inevitably result! It won't make any difference to 'hard-liners' on either side - and there are plenty of each on here - but they are not the ones that determine election results!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It's the Conservatives turn to get hit by a global disaster completely outwith their control - as happened to Labour with the Lehman et al meltdown! It'll be interesting to see how each party - and that fickle bunch 'the Electorate' - reacts to the fallout/stagnation/shrinkage of the economy that will inevitably result! It won't make any difference to 'hard-liners' on either side - and there are plenty of each on here - but they are not the ones that determine election results!
		
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You mean like Brown and Darling saving the UK economy and banks in 2008, but having to spend loads of dosh to do so - then getting blamed by the Conservatives for spending loads of dosh and so austerity...

Well.  Sometimes you need to spend a load of money - as Sunak is demonstrating perfectly - TINA (unless it is to deliver a Labour manifesto - then it's unaffordable and not acceptable  ).  We will see.  Remember Churchill.  Sunak doing his best to sweeten a very bitter pill and Johnson is promising no further austerity to pay for it.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean like Brown and Darling saving the UK economy and banks in 2008, but having to spend loads of dosh to do so - then getting blamed by the Conservatives for spending loads of dosh and so austerity...

Well.  Sometimes you need to spend a load of money - as Sunak is demonstrating perfectly - TINA (unless it is to deliver a Labour manifesto - then it's unaffordable and not acceptable  ).  We will see.  Remember Churchill.  Sunak doing his best to sweeten a very bitter pill and Johnson is promising no further austerity to pay for it.
		
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Brown went on a borrowing frenzy in his latter period, he made huge increases in benefits and it was not as a result of the financial crisis. even the Libdems were shocked by the debt he had created.


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## DanFST (Jul 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Brown went on a borrowing frenzy in his latter period, he made huge increases in benefits and it was not as a result of the financial crisis. even the Libdems were shocked by the debt he had created.
		
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"Saviour" Brown sold half our gold reserves. Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean like Brown and Darling saving the UK economy and banks in 2008, but having to spend loads of dosh to do so - then getting blamed by the Conservatives for spending loads of dosh and so austerity...

Well.  Sometimes you need to spend a load of money - as Sunak is demonstrating perfectly - TINA (unless it is to deliver a Labour manifesto - then it's unaffordable and not acceptable  ).  We will see.  Remember Churchill.  Sunak doing his best to sweeten a very bitter pill and Johnson is promising no further austerity to pay for it.
		
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Indeed! Politics is primarily, at least to me, a PR exercise! And that's where, imo, Conservatives have a distinct advantage - their aspirational (greed?) focus being naturally more attractive, or at least sellable, than Labour's 'social justice' approach that's so easily condemned as 'unaffordable'. Also 'interesting', and imo to the Conservatives benefit, will be the end-of-year Brexit negotiation deadline. Any negative effects are likely to be pretty trivial (save perhaps any chaos on the M20 that might occur) compared to CV19 effects!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! Politics is primarily, at least to me, a PR exercise! And that's where, imo, Conservatives have a distinct advantage - their aspirational (greed?) focus being naturally more attractive, or at least sellable, than Labour's 'social justice' approach that's so easily condemned as 'unaffordable'. Also 'interesting', and imo to the Conservatives benefit, will be the end-of-year Brexit negotiation deadline. Any negative effects are likely to be pretty trivial (save perhaps any chaos on the M20 that might occur) compared to CV19 effects!
		
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The Tories PR train is amazing. Only they could convince the working class to vote for them in their droves 

Problem is there more people out there who would look after number 1 and forget about others (not saying all Tory voters are that) just saying that you just need a few million who are why should I pay for this for someone Ive worked hard they should too.. not knowing what that person has been through or the opportunity they have had compared

Human nature unfortunately


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## Mudball (Jul 9, 2020)

lots of posts on Brown/labour/lib dem.. havent read the last 50 posts...   But just checking to see if we are still holding the party line that this is all Labours fault.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The Tories PR train is amazing. Only they could convince the working class to vote for them in their droves

Problem is there more people out there who would look after number 1 and forget about others (not saying all Tory voters are that) just saying that you just need a few million who are why should I pay for this for someone Ive worked hard they should too.. not knowing what that person has been through or the opportunity they have had compared

*Human nature unfortunately*

Click to expand...

But it ain't necessarily so...

You just need to try and understand the difference between what you want and what is right, and that what is right may not be what you want.  But that's not the tough bit...the tough bit is doing what is right.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			"Saviour" Brown sold half our gold reserves. *Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time*.......
		
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Not necessarily the worst investment decision, but certainly the worst timing!
Over 60% of the (paper?) 'loss' has been recovered as interest from what was purchased with the proceeds!


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Brown went on a borrowing frenzy in his latter period, he made huge increases in benefits and it was not as a result of the financial crisis. even the Libdems were shocked by the debt he had created.
		
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Wrong,  national debt in 2007 as a percentage of GDP was lower than it had been at the end of the previous Tory Government regime in 1997 at under 40%   It rose through the following 2 years due to positive measures Darling took to stave off the worst of the international financial crisis. It has risen over since to over 80% of GDP,  so remind me which party of Government is fiscally most responsible.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 9, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Wrong,  national debt in 2007 as a percentage of GDP was lower than it had been at the end of the previous Tory Government regime in 1997 at under 40%   It rose through the following 2 years due to positive measures Darling took to stave off the worst of the international financial crisis. It has risen over since to over 80% of GDP,  so remind me which party of Government is fiscally most responsible.
		
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Think all parties are pretty rubbish deep down.. even though I prefer just left of centre 

Almost like the government needs a reform


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## Old Skier (Jul 9, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Think all parties are pretty rubbish deep down.. even though I prefer just left of centre

Almost like the government needs a reform
		
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Politics and elections needs a reform but the politician’s are against it.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Not necessarily the worst investment decision, but certainly the worst timing!
Over 60% of the (paper?) 'loss' has been recovered as interest from what was purchased with the proceeds!
		
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How have we recovered that loss? Brown sold over half our gold resrves - circa 400 tonnes at an average of $275/ per ounce between 1999 and 2002, rasing $3.5bn. Today gold is $1814, so 6.59x higher. Thus that sale today would be $23bn, circa $19.5bn more. Not really sure how the Treasury have done with the proceeds to earn around $12bn?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			"Saviour" Brown sold half our gold reserves. Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......
		
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Another urban myth.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			How have we recovered that loss? Brown sold over half our gold resrves - circa 400 tonnes at an average of $275/ per ounce between 1999 and 2002, rasing $3.5bn. Today gold is $1814, so 6.59x higher. Thus that sale today would be $23bn, circa $19.5bn more. Not really sure how the Treasury have done with the proceeds to earn around $12bn?
		
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Just imagine how rich we’d all be if we’d invested in Apple at the beginning!

It can only be judged at it’s moment in time, not with current market rates.

I’m sure we could all make a fortune with hindsght.

https://amp.ft.com/content/5788dbac-7680-11e0-b05b-00144feabdc0


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## DanFST (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Another urban myth.
		
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It's a fact...... The Bank of England implored him not to sell.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			How have we recovered that loss? Brown sold over half our gold resrves - circa 400 tonnes at an average of $275/ per ounce between 1999 and 2002, rasing $3.5bn. Today gold is $1814, so 6.59x higher. Thus that sale today would be $23bn, circa $19.5bn more. Not really sure how the Treasury have done with the proceeds to earn around $12bn?
		
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Read the last line of my post!
Here's a link that might help....https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...nomy-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html
Oh. And if you really want to criticise Brown...The last paragraph of the link will provide (unfortunately unexplained) ammo!


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## PNWokingham (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just imagine how rich we’d all be if we’d invested in Apple at the beginning!

It can only be judged at it’s moment in time, not with current market rates.

I’m sure we could all make a fortune with hindsght.

https://amp.ft.com/content/5788dbac-7680-11e0-b05b-00144feabdc0

Click to expand...

and to dump at the very end of a 20-year bear market could be called a poor decision. We are not talking equity rallies here just national reserves and we had less gold than many other economies at the time. Poor decision however you cut it


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## DanFST (Jul 9, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			How have we recovered that loss? Brown sold over half our gold resrves - circa 400 tonnes at an average of $275/ per ounce between 1999 and 2002, rasing $3.5bn. Today gold is $1814, so 6.59x higher. Thus that sale today would be $23bn, circa $19.5bn more. Not really sure how the Treasury have done with the proceeds to earn around $12bn?
		
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Compound interest.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Compound interest.
		
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compounding what...negative rates?


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## DanFST (Jul 9, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			compounding what...negative rates?
		
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Oh no, I agree we are no way near recovering the loss.

But theoretically there was an argument to sell. However everyone with knowledge knew it was a stupid move.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

The FT call it a correct decision just a few years after, yet 2 blokes on a Golf Forum call it incorrect! Mmmmmm, who to believe.

Government Ministers from all Parties make decisions based on facts at the time, with unforeseen circumstances and then hindsight these decisions can be questioned.

I’m sure plenty of recent decisions that are questioned are dismissed as the right decision at the time.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			...
I’m sure plenty of recent decisions that are questioned are dismissed as the right decision at the time.
		
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Here's a 'perfect' example in the news today! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53348246
'Interesting' action from a public servant. Will perhaps be in Cummings's sights as a result - if not already there!


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## DanFST (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The FT call it a correct decision just a few years after, yet 2 blokes on a Golf Forum call it incorrect! Mmmmmm, who to believe.
.
		
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I work in Investments in Canary Wharf by the way. 

Where's your info to say my claim is an Urban myth?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It's a fact...... The Bank of England implored him not to sell.
		
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What do the BoE know - remember us being told to ignore the dire Project Fear predictions of Mark Carney?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			J*ust imagine how rich we’d all be if we’d invested in Apple at the beginning!*

It can only be judged at it’s moment in time, not with current market rates.

I’m sure we could all make a fortune with hindsght.

https://amp.ft.com/content/5788dbac-7680-11e0-b05b-00144feabdc0

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I had a colleague in our US office who did just that. Didn't put that much in, ended up with well over a million a few years ago when he sold up. And are people still going on about Gordon Brown selling our gold?  It's the gift that keeps on giving for some.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Wrong,  national debt in 2007 as a percentage of GDP was lower than it had been at the end of the previous Tory Government regime in 1997 at under 40%   It rose through the following 2 years due to positive measures Darling took to stave off the worst of the international financial crisis. It has risen over since to over 80% of GDP,  so remind me which party of Government is fiscally most responsible.
		
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I would suggest it wasnt Brown and if you look at the way borrowing has been reduced since labour were removed the answer to your question is obviously 'not labour'


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## PNWokingham (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The FT call it a correct decision just a few years after, yet 2 blokes on a Golf Forum call it incorrect! Mmmmmm, who to believe.

Government Ministers from all Parties make decisions based on facts at the time, with unforeseen circumstances and then hindsight these decisions can be questioned.

I’m sure plenty of recent decisions that are questioned are dismissed as the right decision at the time.
		
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yes. 2 blokes from the forum. I am saying categorically and uneqivically that Brown selling gold was a monumentally bad decision for our country. It is hard for any sane person to say otherwise. As was his running of the Treasury for the next 8 years when he borrowed money every year in a booming economy rather than shrinking our debt so we have firepower if we needed it. And boy did we need it in 2009!


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2020)

DRW said:



			That's isn't quite true, it went on whilst labour was in power as well btw.

Its something I looked at a while ago :- (goto figure/chart 4 on the first link for since 1987/88).

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbers

https://www.statista.com/statistics/473264/number-of-hospital-beds-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/


Sure a fair reason is also down to key hole surgery/pregnancy stays and better surgery being done on day stays now.

I had my gall bladder out on key hole, would have been a slash you open job in the 1980s and a stay in hospital, as example.
		
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Do you think they don't do keyhole surgery in Germany?


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest it wasnt Brown and if you look at the way borrowing has been reduced since labour were removed the answer to your question is obviously 'not labour'
View attachment 31557

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Er...When did the Lehman etc Financial meltdown happen? 2008! So that graph merely reflects the 'quite reasonable' consequent Government action! It's highly likely that an even worse 'picture' of government borrowing will happen consequential to Cov19!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Er...When did the Lehman etc Financial meltdown happen? 2008! So that graph merely reflects the 'quite reasonable' consequent Government action! It's highly likely that an even worse 'picture' of government borrowing will happen consequential to Cov19!
		
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The big borrowing from Brown was before and after the financial crash and you cannot deny the way it was reduced after Labour.

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm


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## DRW (Jul 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Do you think they don't do keyhole surgery in Germany?
		
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Why are the Tory government in charge of germany  Your post did not provide all the truth, so was only looking to provide facts to show the full picture, ie labour, tories and the coalition have all reduced bed numbers.

I do not believe I was defending or not, the UK governments over the years massive reductions in beds, when comparing to other countries but did highlight reasons why a reduction has happened, but those links gives many reasons.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The big borrowing from Brown was before and after the financial crash and you cannot deny the way it was reduced after Labour.

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

Click to expand...

As per the 'About' page of the link....that site is 1 person's view - with no more authority than you or me! If that's the best you can come up with then that's pretty damning!


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The big borrowing from Brown was before and after the financial crash and you cannot deny the way it was reduced after Labour.

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

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In 2007 the Shadow Chancellor (Osborne)promised to match the spending of Darling.  So the deficit would have been no different had the Tories been in Government at the time of the crash. ://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2007/09/tories-will-mat.html


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I work in Investments in Canary Wharf by the way.

Where's your info to say my claim is an Urban myth?
		
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I’ve already linked the FT report saying it was the correct decision at the time, all this bad decision etc is stated with hindsight, even your own post, stated “Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......” so with 2 sides normally to an argument it also wasn’t “Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......”


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## DanFST (Jul 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ve already linked the FT report saying it was the correct decision at the time, all this bad decision etc is stated with hindsight, even your own post, stated “Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......” so with 2 sides normally to an argument it also wasn’t “Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......”

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So nothing to support your claim that my post is an "urban myth".

We decided to take the risk selling historically stable assets, diversifying into currency. It was a wrong decision and the ham fisted approach when we sold out further compounded the problem (get it), 2019 had the highest number of gold purchases by central banks according to the WGC.

The other side to the argument is there might have been something more stupid that i'm not knowledgable about, either way it was an TERRIBLE decision with hindsight we can see it even clearer, a bullion is not yesterdays asset.

Clearly you aren't versed on the matter, but don't call out someone who actually understands without substance to back it up.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			As per the 'About' page of the link....that site is 1 person's view - with no more authority than you or me! If that's the best you can come up with then that's pretty damning!
		
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OK Mr Googleit, You are normally quick enough to lookup the details, if you can find different graphs to show it wrong then go ahead, I am sure I can find others with the same damning data.

How about the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...s-budget-target-but-deficit-is-at-17-year-low


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			So nothing to support your claim that my post is an "urban myth".

We decided to take the risk selling historically stable assets, diversifying into currency. It was a wrong decision and the ham fisted approach when we sold out further compounded the problem (get it), 2019 had the highest number of gold purchases by central banks according to the WGC.

The other side to the argument is there might have been something more stupid that i'm not knowledgable about, either way it was an TERRIBLE decision with hindsight we can see it even clearer, a bullion is not yesterdays asset.

Clearly you aren't versed on the matter, but don't call out someone who actually understands without substance to back it up.
		
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It’s an urban myth if you can only say “arguably” because “arguably” you could be wrong!

Again you are using hindsight to prove your point, at the time Brown, the man responsible, believed it was the correct decision.

Many Countries including Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada and others were selling Gold Reserves at the time.

“What threw Gordon Brown has been the collapse of interest rates over the past 20 years. At the end of the 1990s, the three-month yield on US Treasury securities was around 4 per cent. Had it stayed there, the value would have more than doubled. Remember too that gold had fallen in value during the previous 20 years. So yes, selling gold was a bad financial decision, but at the time it looked a perfectly reasonable one.”


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			Why are the Tory government in charge of germany  Your post did not provide all the truth, so was only looking to provide facts to show the full picture, ie labour, tories and the coalition have all reduced bed numbers.

I do not believe I was defending or not, the UK governments over the years massive reductions in beds, when comparing to other countries but did highlight reasons why a reduction has happened, but those links gives many reasons.
		
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My point, which you obviously missed, was that the underlying health of the NHS was compromised over years previous, so when a crisis hit, the NHS had to take steps to respond that caused problems elsewhere. Other civilised countries which did not rush towards a market system in their national health systems, took a more prudent long term approach and benefitted when the crisis hit. 

The point that a keyhole surgery with shorter admissions in hospital in some way supports the need to slash bed numbers misses the point. Whatever reasons are cited, the real reason was to reduce cost for the brave new market system in the NHS.


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## DRW (Jul 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			My point, which you obviously missed, was that the underlying health of the NHS was compromised over years previous, so when a crisis hit, the NHS had to take steps to respond that caused problems elsewhere. Other civilised countries which did not rush towards a market system in their national health systems, took a more prudent long term approach and benefitted when the crisis hit.

The point that a keyhole surgery with shorter admissions in hospital in some way supports the need to slash bed numbers misses the point. Whatever reasons are cited, the real reason was to reduce cost for the brave new market system in the NHS.
		
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I don't miss the above points and do understand those factors...….I wonder why I previously looked at the reduced bed numbers and other stuff to do with NHS.  And keyhole or the other examples I gave are not the main reasons for the drop..... For example the massive drop in mental health beds was a change in policy and are in the community now, rather than in 'beds', for example. Thought I better add I am neither supporting that change in policy or not before you assume I have missed a point 

Out of interest, do you accept that it has been ALL UK governments that has reduced bed numbers, rather than just Tory, as the facts show?

That was the only point I was making and appreciate the points you are making. Have a good day, as didn't really have anything to add apart from the fact, that all UK governments have been reducing bed numbers. It is an emotive subject and is certainly not black & white or simple to look at in a forum chat and don't wish to spend ages point scoring, as my thoughts are actually not that far away from yours tbh.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 10, 2020)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...-the-government-no-matter-what-20200710198323


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK Mr Googleit, You are normally quick enough to lookup the details, if you can find different graphs to show it wrong then go ahead, I am sure I can find others with the same damning data.

How about the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...s-budget-target-but-deficit-is-at-17-year-low

Click to expand...

Nothing actually wrong with the graph(s) - it's the conclusions drawn from it that I consider 'skewed'!
The massive hike in public borrowing in 2008/9 peaking in 2009/10 was entirely due to the Banking crisis. Subsequent years quite reasonably showed steady reductions. I'm certain there'll be an even bigger hike for the next couple of/few years (or more) depending on how soon the threat from the CV19 pandemic lasts. And, again, there'll be a steady reduction once the threat has abated. And that's precisely why I made the comment about it being 'the Conservatives turn to suffer...' in an earlier post.


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			I don't miss the above points and do understand those factors...….I wonder why I previously looked at the reduced bed numbers and other stuff to do with NHS.  And keyhole or the other examples I gave are not the main reasons for the drop..... For example the massive drop in mental health beds was a change in policy and are in the community now, rather than in 'beds', for example. Thought I better add I am neither supporting that change in policy or not before you assume I have missed a point 

Out of interest, do you accept that it has been ALL UK governments that has reduced bed numbers, rather than just Tory, as the facts show?

That was the only point I was making and appreciate the points you are making. Have a good day, as didn't really have anything to add apart from the fact, that all UK governments have been reducing bed numbers. It is an emotive subject and is certainly not black & white or simple to look at in a forum chat and don't wish to spend ages point scoring, as my thoughts are actually not that far away from yours tbh. 

Click to expand...

I do agree that bed numbers have fallen under all parties, although the clinical impact of this varies with time. The facts (Kings Fund, for example) shows that at the start of bed reductions, under Thatcher and Major, was fairly steep, under Blair was slower, but in recent years it has become dangerous. Pressures on beds often now become intense. When I was a lad working as a junior hospital doctor, it wasn't nearly so bad and I never had to refuse an admission because of bed shortages. Sometimes had to park someone in another ward for a while, though.

Mental health is a particular problem. My OH is a psychiatrist and even though the bar for admission has become very high, on those occasions where someone a bit tricky has to be admitted, it could be to a bed several counties away, and sometimes there are no beds available in some risk categories. ICU capacity has been a known problem for years, especially in winter, and neonatal ICU a particular problem. 

Unfortunately, there is a party ideology difference, noting that I am neither a Labour member or voter. Tories are much more likely to speak in favour of a social insurance funding model with multiple providers, including private ones, operating under an NHS banner. This model is a hard nosed business one and therefore cuts costs and capacity to the narrowest margin, as determined locally. Unfortunately we have seen that this is sometimes too narrow and some degree of central planning is needed. The same model places little value on public health. Responsibility for public health moved from the NHS to local authorities a few years ago and has suffered badly as a result.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I do agree that bed numbers have fallen under all parties, although the clinical impact of this varies with time. The facts (Kings Fund, for example) shows that at the start of bed reductions, under Thatcher and Major, was fairly steep, under Blair was slower, but in recent years it has become dangerous. Pressures on beds often now become intense. When I was a lad working as a junior hospital doctor, it wasn't nearly so bad and I never had to refuse an admission because of bed shortages. Sometimes had to park someone in another ward for a while, though.

Mental health is a particular problem. My OH is a psychiatrist and even though the bar for admission has become very high, on those occasions where someone a bit tricky has to be admitted, it could be to a bed several counties away, and sometimes there are no beds available in some risk categories. ICU capacity has been a known problem for years, especially in winter, and neonatal ICU a particular problem.

Unfortunately, there is a party ideology difference, *noting that I am neither a Labour member or voter*. Tories are much more likely to speak in favour of a social insurance funding model with multiple providers, including private ones, operating under an NHS banner. This model is a hard nosed business one and therefore cuts costs and capacity to the narrowest margin, as determined locally. Unfortunately we have seen that this is sometimes too narrow and some degree of central planning is needed. The same model places little value on public health. Responsibility for public health moved from the NHS to local authorities a few years ago and has suffered badly as a result.
		
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 That's a bit of a turn around for you, you told us you were joining the Labour Party under the cheap 'Vote in Corbyn' Scheme back then and were quite vocal in your wishes for a Labour Goverment.   What's changed, are they too right wing for you now?


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a bit of a turn around for you, you told us you were joining the Labour Party under the cheap 'Vote in Corbyn' Scheme back then and were quite vocal in your wishes for a Labour Goverment.   What's changed, are they too right wing for you now?
		
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I consider it an indicator of education and maturity to be willing to change my mind in light of new information and changes in external factors. This used to be known as learning. Since Corbyn was elected leader there have been 2 GEs and one EU election and I have not voted for Labour in any of them. Not because Corbyn was too left wing (although he kinda was), but because he was unwilling to wise up on Brexit despite the majority of his party and MPs realising Brexit was a  stupid idea. Having said that, a Labour Govt would have been a damn sight better than the current mob of idiots, crooks, charlatans and sociopaths. Labour is much improved by Starmer although he is trying to stay away from Brexit. For now. It remains to be seen how the rest of the party evolves.

Have you likewise shown personal growth in any matter of importance?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I consider it an indicator of education and maturity to be willing to change my mind in light of new information and changes in external factors. This used to be known as learning. Since Corbyn was elected leader there have been 2 GEs and one EU election and I have not voted for Labour in any of them. Not because Corbyn was too left wing (although he kinda was), but because he was unwilling to wise up on Brexit despite the majority of his party and MPs realising Brexit was a  stupid idea. Having said that, a Labour Govt would have been a damn sight better than the current mob of idiots, crooks, charlatans and sociopaths. Labour is much improved by Starmer although he is trying to stay away from Brexit. For now. It remains to be seen how the rest of the party evolves.

Have you likewise shown personal growth in any matter of importance?
		
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There's no place for nuance and not blindly supporting one party no matter what in the modern game son.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I consider it an indicator of education and maturity to be willing to change my mind in light of new information and changes in external factors. This used to be known as learning. Since Corbyn was elected leader there have been 2 GEs and one EU election and I have not voted for Labour in any of them. Not because Corbyn was too left wing (although he kinda was), but because he was unwilling to wise up on Brexit despite the majority of his party and MPs realising Brexit was a f***ing stupid idea. Having said that, a Labour Govt would have been a damn sight better than the current mob of idiots, crooks, charlatans and sociopaths. Labour is much improved by Starmer although he is trying to stay away from Brexit. For now. It remains to be seen how the rest of the party evolves.

Have you likewise shown personal growth in any matter of importance?
		
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Unlike you I have no need to change my political allegiance as the party I support are doing very well.  However, I always strive for ways to advance my personal growth and education. Currently I'm reading through a set of books that focus on the politics of the Anglo Saxon period from King Ethelred (The unready) to the Norman invasion, I recommend it as similar characters seem to emerge as in the latterday cut and thrust.    Not sure if that qualifies as a matter of importance with you though.


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## Hobbit (Jul 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ve already linked the FT report saying it was the correct decision at the time, all this bad decision etc is stated with hindsight, even your own post, stated “Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......” so with 2 sides normally to an argument it also wasn’t “Arguably the worst Investment decision of all time.......”

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I had a search when this was being discussed yesterday. The FT piece was the only piece on the first page of search results that supported the decision. That said, it made what I thought was a very valid point. Why should a sovereign nation have such a large amount of money sat doing nothing? Gold might go up in value but it doesn't earn interest that could be spent on, e.g. a new school or hospital.

My thoughts down the years has always been why did the idiot sell the family jewels? Having read the FT piece, and given its reasoning a lot of thought, I'm more inclined to say great idea but why sell when almost every expert was saying it was the wrong time to go to market?

To understand Brown's reasoning you're really got to dig deep into Brown's relationship with Blair and most of the Cabinet. Its intriguing and quite Machiavellian, but that's not for this thread.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I work in Investments in Canary Wharf by the way.

Where's your info to say my claim is an Urban myth?
		
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Like me, you, apparently, also support West Ham. So that pretty much destroys 99% of your 'common sense credibility'!


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Unlike you I have no need to change my political allegiance as the party I support are doing very well.  However, I always strive for ways to advance my personal growth and education. Currently I'm reading through a set of books that focus on the politics of the Anglo Saxon period from King Ethelred (The unready) to the Norman invasion, I recommend it as similar characters seem to emerge as in the latterday cut and thrust.    Not sure if that qualifies as a matter of importance with you though.
		
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Doing well? Well, if you mean they are securely in power, certainly. If you mean doing well by doing a good job on the response to this virus, and preventing further economic self harm by making sensible decisions on European cooperation including extending transition, you are utterly deluded.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I had a search when this was being discussed yesterday. The FT piece was the only piece on the first page of search results that supported the decision. That said, it made what I thought was a very valid point. Why should a sovereign nation have such a large amount of money sat doing nothing? Gold might go up in value but it doesn't earn interest that could be spent on, e.g. a new school or hospital.

My thoughts down the years has always been why did the idiot sell the family jewels? Having read the FT piece, and given its reasoning a lot of thought, I'm more inclined to say great idea but why sell when almost every expert was saying it was the wrong time to go to market?

To understand Brown's reasoning you're really got to dig deep into Brown's relationship with Blair and most of the Cabinet. Its intriguing and quite Machiavellian, but that's not for this thread.
		
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It’s like a lot of things with Politics, these people make decisions which over time can be seen as both clever or a disaster, I’d like to believe that the majority of the decisions they make are for the “right” reasons at the time they are taken, because one thing is for sure, history will judge them.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Doing well? Well, if you mean they are securely in power, certainly. If you mean doing well by doing a good job on the response to this virus, and preventing further economic self harm by making sensible decisions on European cooperation including extending transition, you are utterly deluded.
		
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Still licking those old Brexit wounds that are amplified by the demise of your great hope for humanity.  Never mind, maybe the words of Marx can encourage some self contemplation for yourself and a few likeminded.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2020)

Johnson flip flopping then flop flipping on face coverings.
Mind you, by tomorrow morning he might have Cummings making him change his mind yet again.
Clear messaging has not been a  plus for this government


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## DanFST (Jul 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			That said, it made what I thought was a very valid point. Why should a sovereign nation have such a large amount of money sat doing nothing? Gold might go up in value but it doesn't earn interest that could be spent on, e.g. a new school or hospital.
		
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The same reason people have their money in savings accounts offering almost nothing. Stability and security. 

It was short termism, the fire sale actually dropped the price of what we retained by 10%. No government should have the power to liquidate that amount of assets.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2020)

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...er-of-people-tested-by-up-to-200-000-12025912

Golly Gosh......isn't that a huge surprise to all of us.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			The same reason people have their money in savings accounts offering almost nothing. Stability and security.

It was short termism, the fire sale actually dropped the price of what we retained by 10%. No government should have the power to liquidate that amount of assets.
		
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Governments do it all the time, in 1996 John Major sold all MOD Housing to Annington Homes for £1.2Bn to fund a 2p income tax cut just before the GE and agreed to lease the housing back to the MOD, that deal has cost us nearly £4Bn and is still rising. I’m sure at the time the then Chancellor thought it was a good idea.

https://amp.ft.com/content/8012d33a-04f8-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ough-sale-of-military-homes-says-audit-office

Sunak has been fantastic with all his initiatives during this crisis spending £188Bn up to now, but who’s to say in 10-20 years history will judge him differently or uncover areas were people will claim money was wasted? 

As stated many times: “Hindsight is a wonderful thing”


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## DanFST (Jul 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Governments do it all the time, in 1996 John Major sold all MOD Housing to Annington Homes for £1.2Bn to fund a 2p income tax cut just before the GE and agreed to lease the housing back to the MOD, that deal has cost us nearly £4Bn and is still rising. I’m sure at the time the then Chancellor thought it was a good idea.

As stated many times: “Hindsight is a wonderful thing”
		
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I'm not being pro tory at all. Just following up your incorrect claim that selling 56% of our gold for unstable currency to attempt to earn interest is an "urban myth". The Tories caused Black Wednesday under Major, another pretty terrible decision! 

I'm not sure you can compare keeping the economy and people afloat in a pandemic to a crap attempt to raise capital. And obviously hindsight helps determine the true effect of these decision, obviously everyone thought they were making the correct decision at the time. Doesn't excuse the outcome tho.


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			The same reason people have their money in savings accounts offering almost nothing. Stability and security.

It was short termism, the fire sale actually dropped the price of what we retained by 10%. No government should have the power to liquidate that amount of assets.
		
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Stability, is that when you put  a gold bar under a table leg? Security, is that when you bash someone with a gold bar? I realise its a flippant answer, perhaps even facetious, but please explain what a hoard of gold is worth when you need new hospitals and schools? Yes, with assets you can borrow more at a better rate but why when you have something achieving no interest?

I think the idea to sell wasn't bad, but I think the timing, and what a lot of the money was spent on was poor. The what it was spent on is perhaps something that needs a good look at too.

You believe it was wrong, fine. I think it was a good idea, poorly executed.


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## CliveW (Jul 11, 2020)

Coronavirus 50 years ago...


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## patricks148 (Jul 11, 2020)

Looks like the usual suspects leveling up
https://www.facebook.com/PeterStefanovicJuniorDoctors/photos/a.200539210328709/1184248188624468/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm not being pro tory at all. Just following up your incorrect claim that selling 56% of our gold for unstable currency to attempt to earn interest is an "urban myth". The Tories caused Black Wednesday under Major, another pretty terrible decision!

I'm not sure you can compare keeping the economy and people afloat in a pandemic to a crap attempt to raise capital. And obviously hindsight helps determine the true effect of these decision, obviously everyone thought they were making the correct decision at the time. Doesn't excuse the outcome tho.
		
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I don’t doubt what he did and how it looks since, the Urban Myth is the fact it judged by present standards, at the time it was done for the right reasons.

Therefore people simply go along with the party line rather than looking at the facts.


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## Slab (Jul 14, 2020)

While the other thread talked a bit about masks yesterday I guess chat about the health, scientific, social or political rational of waiting 10 days to start the practice needs to be in this thread

I get some folks will have to buy masks for the first time (although I'd like to hear thoughts from anyone who deliberately hasn't taken the opportunity to buy one yet) but with zero restrictions on shopping, the 10 day lead time to start seems excessive to me


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## Captainron (Jul 14, 2020)

Why the hell wait 10 days. 2 days max to get your stuff together because if you haven’t done so by now then you’re not paying attention.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 14, 2020)

I've got a box of disposable ones, sent in an order by a Chinese customer so I'm covered. If you are not tech savvy, don't go on the internet, where do you buy them from? I'm not being awkward, I'm trying to look at this from the perspective of someone older for example who only buys from shops, not Amazon etc. Are they widely available yet to buy and if so where?

10 days seems excessive but maybe that might be needed to give time for people and shops to get them in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 14, 2020)

Has Johnson stopped his dithering about face coverings in English shops yet or are we to trust Gove's views that common sense will prevail.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've got a box of disposable ones, sent in an order by a Chinese customer so I'm covered. If you are not tech savvy, don't go on the internet, where do you buy them from? I'm not being awkward, I'm trying to look at this from the perspective of someone older for example who only buys from shops, not Amazon etc. Are they widely available yet to buy and if so where?

10 days seems excessive but maybe that might be needed to give time for people and shops to get them in.
		
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As I understand it... It's a face covering that's required rather than a medical style face mask... I will be continuing to use tubular scarfs [snoods] pulled up to cover mouth/nose... The more garish the better... Herself got some medical style masks from Aldi/Lidl ready for a hospital visit in case her homemade ones were deemed not suitable... Most of us "older" folk will own a bog standard scarf which could be pressed into use...


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## User62651 (Jul 14, 2020)

Flip flopping continues

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282938936034287616


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## rudebhoy (Jul 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Has Johnson stopped his dithering about face coverings in English shops yet or are we to trust Gove's views that *common sense will prevail*.

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that's on a par with "we are not going to shut pubs, but please don't go to them".


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## GB72 (Jul 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As I understand it... It's a face covering that's required rather than a medical style face mask... I will be continuing to use tubular scarfs [snoods] pulled up to cover mouth/nose... The more garish the better... Herself got some medical style masks from Aldi/Lidl ready for a hospital visit in case her homemade ones were deemed not suitable... Most of us "older" folk will own a bog standard scarf which could be pressed into use...
		
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Exactly what I use. Until anyone says otherwise, I am sticking to using a snood pulled up over my mouth and nose. Bought a 6 pack at the beginning of lockdown when it looked likely that face coverings would be needed. Suspect that there wil be a bit of a run on them now.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Exactly what I use. Until anyone says otherwise, I am sticking to using a snood pulled up over my mouth and nose. Bought a 6 pack at the beginning of lockdown when it looked likely that face coverings would be needed. Suspect that there wil be a bit of a run on them now.
		
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I had some lying around from my bank robbing days ...


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## DRW (Jul 14, 2020)

Found a suitable face mask, reckon DFT may wish to have the link to buy one himself.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 14, 2020)

DRW said:



View attachment 31618


Found a suitable face mask, reckon DFT may wish to have the link to buy one himself.

Click to expand...

No thanks, I don't want to be seen as an outcast


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## Kaz (Jul 14, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Why the hell wait 10 days. 2 days max to get your stuff together because if you haven’t done so by now then you’re not paying attention.
		
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The govt has been dealing with the virus for months and yet they still manage to screw up simple stuff like this. It's so depressing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The govt has been dealing with the virus for months and yet they still manage to screw up simple stuff like this. It's so depressing.
		
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Why is there the delay?  The cynic in me says that they getting this out there and waiting to hear the reaction - so that if they don't like the sound of the reaction they can tweak the 'ask' of us.  I can't think of any reason for such a delay.  Just mandate it. 

A couple of days notice is surely sufficient.  If it matters then it matters now.  And if it isn't 'now' then it can't matter that much - and when something we don't really want to do doesn't seem to matter that much we are less likely to do it.


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## Kaz (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why is there the delay?  The cynic in me says that they getting this out there and waiting to hear the reaction - so that if they don't like the sound of the reaction they can tweak the 'ask' of us.  I can't think of any reason for such a delay.  Just mandate it.

A couple of days notice is surely sufficient.  If it matters then it matters now.  And if it isn't 'now' then it can't matter that much - and when something we don't really want to do doesn't seem to matter that much we are less likely to do it.
		
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Incompetence, pure and simple.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 14, 2020)

Sixth day on the trot no covid deaths in Scotland.
Only two ICU patients , excellent news.


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

Just a rhetorical thought, I wonder if the delay is because unlike here in Spain the retailers aren't selling them in numbers yet. Just a thought...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why is there the delay?  The cynic in me says that they getting this out there and waiting to hear the reaction - so that if they don't like the sound of the reaction they can tweak the 'ask' of us.  I can't think of any reason for such a delay.  Just mandate it.

A couple of days notice is surely sufficient.  If it matters then it matters now.  And if it isn't 'now' then it can't matter that much - and when something we don't really want to do doesn't seem to matter that much we are less likely to do it.
		
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The delay is simple. Go online and since this change of policy, public demand has already swept up huge numbers of masks and so delivery times are now being delayed until next week if not longer. What happens then, for example if you are shopping for vulnerable parents still shielding. You won't be allowed in any shop (and possibly fined). Give the majority time to get themselves sorted (and even ordering the day before yesterday would mean most are only being delivered yesterday or the next few days depending on whether express deliver or standard postage was paid). At that time it's right to enforce strictly and no mask = no entry. I thought masks were already mandatory at train stations and people wouldn't be allowed access to the complex or on trains but sit on any train I've been on and people are flouting this especially the 16-30 age grouo


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The delay is simple. Go online and since this change of policy, public demand has already swept up huge numbers of masks and so delivery times are now being delayed until next week if not longer. What happens then, for example if you are shopping for vulnerable parents still shielding. You won't be allowed in any shop (and possibly fined). Give the majority time to get themselves sorted (and even ordering the day before yesterday would mean most are only being delivered yesterday or the next few days depending on whether express deliver or standard postage was paid). At that time it's right to enforce strictly and no mask = no entry. I thought masks were already mandatory at train stations and people wouldn't be allowed access to the complex or on trains but sit on any train I've been on and people are flouting this especially the 16-30 age grouo
		
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Which is logical ... but if you were planning to make masks mandatory for going into shops then you'd have a plan to avoid, or minimise the impact of,  the problem that you have identified.  Because if masks will be required in ten days time then I suggest that they are required now.


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is logical ... but if you were planning to make masks mandatory for going into shops then you'd have a plan to avoid, or minimise the impact of,  the problem that you have identified.  Because if masks will be required in ten days time then I suggest that they are required now.
		
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*yawn, yawn, yawn* more rubbish.... If you made a decision to implement something today would you expect retailers to have stock today? Obviously, if you were intelligent, the answer is no!!!

But if you hate Boris and the Tories with a passion you'd let intelligence fly out of the window, and reply like an idiot. Well, there's a shock!!!


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## Slab (Jul 14, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The delay is simple. Go online and since this change of policy, public demand has already swept up huge numbers of masks and so delivery times are now being delayed until next week if not longer. *What happens then, for example if you are shopping for vulnerable parents still shielding. You won't be allowed in any shop (and possibly fined)*. Give the majority time to get themselves sorted (and even ordering the day before yesterday would mean most are only being delivered yesterday or the next few days depending on whether express deliver or standard postage was paid). At that time it's right to enforce strictly and no mask = no entry. I thought masks were already mandatory at train stations and people wouldn't be allowed access to the complex or on trains but sit on any train I've been on and people are flouting this especially the 16-30 age grouo
		
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I kinda get what you're saying, but 4 months on with a society that's been shopping _every single _day, that's not really an issue is it, people only having a weeks supply of food? (& particularly since any face mask will suffice)


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Incompetence, pure and simple.
		
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Politically biased twaddle, pure and simple.


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## pendodave (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			*yawn, yawn, yawn* more rubbish.... If you made a decision to implement something today would you expect retailers to have stock today? Obviously, if you were intelligent, the answer is no!!!

But if you hate Boris and the Tories with a passion you'd let intelligence fly out of the window, and reply like an idiot. Well, there's a shock!!!
		
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Er.... we're talking about something that can be made from a pair of old socks here, not a 747...
I can't believe there's a sentient adult in the uk who couldn't source one in an hour.


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## Kaz (Jul 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Politically biased twaddle, pure and simple.
		
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Pots and kettles


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Er.... we're talking about something that can be made from a pair of old socks here, not a 747...
I can't believe there's a sentient adult in the uk who couldn't source one in an hour.
		
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Riiigghhtt! Something with the weave of a sock, or from an old tea towel, is acceptable... yeah, crack on, you know best...


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## pendodave (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Riiigghhtt! Something with the weave of a sock, or from an old tea towel, is acceptable... yeah, crack on, you know best...
		
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Im not offering an opinion on the veracity...
Just telling you what the guidelines say.
You know as well as anyone how little difference any of these really make...
Crack on.


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Im not offering an opinion on the veracity...
Just telling you what the guidelines say.
You know as well as anyone how little difference any of these really make...
Crack on.
		
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Having worked for a major manufacture for nearly 30 years, yes I do know. You obviously don't. And the mols of water vapour carrying a whatever of whatever size is...? Don't tell me, let me guess, you were an expert in bush fires around Christmas time when they had problems in Australia, and now you're an expert in surgical and FFP3 masks.

Like you said, crack on.


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## pendodave (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Having worked for a major manufacture for nearly 30 years, yes I do know. You obviously don't. And the mols of water vapour carrying a whatever of whatever size is...? Don't tell me, let me guess, you were an expert in bush fires around Christmas time when they had problems in Australia, and now you're an expert in surgical and FFP3 masks.

Like you said, crack on.
		
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Au contraire, I have no opinion. Like I said, just quoting guidelines.
I was merely pointing out that there is no need for a 14 day lead up to the introduction of govt sanctioned face coverings.
It's really not worth getting worked up about. It demeans us all.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Riiigghhtt! Something with the weave of a sock, or from an old tea towel, is acceptable... yeah, crack on, you know best...
		
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Erm it is acceptable? It can be any covering you so wish, even if that is a  teenage sock you used to have down the side of your bed!


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## drdel (Jul 14, 2020)

The delay is very simple. Any time that something is mandated there must always be a period of notice otherwise people will argue they have not had time to prepare.


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Erm it is acceptable? It can be any covering you so wish, even if that is a  teenage sock you used to have down the side of your bed!
		
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I'll remember to wear a tea cosy the next time I'm on a motorbike.

There is a reason different helmets, ear defenders and masks have different levels of protection.

Maybe the next time someone is going into an isolation room in Porton Down they should wear a pinny and a pretty scarf.

Seriously, ask yourself why there's different whatever depending on the risk.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2020)

This change in policy has been coming for ages now. Plenty of time to stock up and Amazon and almost every store in the land is coming down with face masks of one sort or another. 

There is a legitimate question about why it has taken so long. I suspect it is that Johnson is reflexively unwilling to do stuff he thinks will be unpopular, happy enough to let others like the police carry the can. He did exactly that with his weak advice not to go to the pub, then letting the police forces reach differing decisions about what the regulations meant. But since shopping has not taken off again like he wanted, this is literally a veil to encourage people to go out. It is the right policy, but for the wrong reasons and much too late.


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## DanFST (Jul 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is the right policy, but for the wrong reasons and much too late.
		
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I completely disagree. 

The NHS hasn't been overloaded since things started up again/at any point. That's the governments goal.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I completely disagree.

The NHS hasn't been overloaded since things started up again/at any point. That's the governments goal.
		
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Do enlarge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			The delay is very simple. Any time that something is mandated there must always be a period of notice otherwise people will argue they have not had time to prepare.
		
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Prepare for what?

By now we should all be fully aware that measures that require the wearing of a face mask were always likely - and I have no doubt that some will say that the government has done just that.  Therefore we should all have face masks to hand to enable us to respond to an immediate mandating of wearing a face mask in shops.

If we do *not *all have face masks then the governments messaging to the public on masks has been inadequate.

And why pander to those who choose to refuse to comply or complain they weren't prepared?  On matters as important this is it not the case that our tolerance of such refusniks and complainants should be low.


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## DanFST (Jul 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Do enlarge.
		
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It was more the "wrong reasons and much too late" - anything that gets people out as you say is a good thing for the government. 

Maybe it's because I'm a pragmatist. You cannot eliminate the virus with no cure and no solid science behind it, we are still learning things every day. (It now appears to attack all organs, the increased rate of strokes and organ failure is due to covid - terrifying stuff) 

As such, the only thing you can do is make sure everyone gets access to treatment. There has been a horrible situation with care homes, but the NHS hasn't been overloaded.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It was more the "wrong reasons and much too late" - anything that gets people out as you say is a good thing for the government.

Maybe it's because I'm a pragmatist. You cannot eliminate the virus with no cure and no solid science behind it, we are still learning things every day. (It now appears to attack all organs, the increased rate of strokes and organ failure is due to covid - terrifying stuff)

As such, the only thing you can do is make sure everyone gets access to treatment. There has been a horrible situation with care homes, but the NHS hasn't been overloaded.
		
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Well, we could have suppressed the virus if the Govt had not decided to do a stupid, dangerous, snd we now know, ineffective herd immunity strategy. That would have included closing inward travel and locking down much sooner. This idea of protecting the NHS is all fine and dandy so long as you accept that it is virtually impossible to calibrate public policy to allow a modest number of cases. 

The realisation that the Govt had been slow to act at the critical times should have driven a subsequently stronger policy, including masks. Hence this action now is late. And it is not to save lives or reduce deaths. It is to encourage shopping. So you will pass people in Tesco wearing masks who, because of the short duration of exposure pose next to no risk, but you can go to the pub or Nando’s for an hour of more without a mask. It is a contradictory policy. 

And the reason Johnson prevaricated on masks was clear today from that apoplectic Tory tosser MP in the Commons moaning about it being a monstrous imposition, and the Twitter reports of Tory members tearing up their membership cards.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			And the reason Johnson prevaricated on masks was clear today from that apoplectic Tory tosser MP in the Commons moaning about it being a monstrous imposition, and the Twitter reports of Tory members tearing up their membership cards.
		
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And just _listen _to Gove, Johnson and Hancock and over the weekend, yesterday and today talking about wearing of masks.  Their thoughts wander all over the shop and they waffle and skirt around saying anything absolutely specific. 

Even after trying hard to distill something solid from what each said (and that is not that easy) - you then find that your distillations are not consistent.  

On Friday Johnson told us that a "stricter" approach to wearing masks was necessary.  What did Gove say on Sunday "It's always better to trust people's common sense...wearing a mask is basic good manners".  And so clearly today that common sense and good manners can't be trusted?  And that's simply over a period of a few days when nothing in respect of the need to be wearing masks has changed.  They are an utter shambles.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, we could have suppressed the virus if the Govt had not decided to do a stupid, dangerous, snd we now know, ineffective herd immunity strategy. That would have included closing inward travel and locking down much sooner. This idea of protecting the NHS is all fine and dandy so long as you accept that it is virtually impossible to calibrate public policy to allow a modest number of cases.

The realisation that the Govt had been slow to act at the critical times should have driven a subsequently stronger policy, including masks. Hence this action now is late. And it is not to save lives or reduce deaths. It is to encourage shopping. So you will pass people in Tesco wearing masks who, because of the short duration of exposure pose next to no risk, but you can go to the pub or Nando’s for an hour of more without a mask. It is a contradictory policy.

And the reason Johnson prevaricated on masks was clear today from that apoplectic Tory tosser MP in the Commons moaning about it being a monstrous imposition, and the Twitter reports of Tory members tearing up their membership cards.
		
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Herd Immunity was proposed by the UK Chief Scientific Officer and rejected by the Government due to the expected high rate of deaths and overwhelming of the NHS.  Also, it's not easy to drink a pint or eat a Nandos with a mask on, is it .
https://www.vox.com/world/2020/3/15/21180414/coronavirus-uk-herd-immunity-vallance-johnson


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Friday Johnson told us that a "stricter" approach to wearing masks was necessary.  What did Gove say on Sunday "It's always better to trust people's common sense...wearing a mask is basic good manners". * And so clearly today that common sense and good manners can't be trusted?*  And that's simply over a period of a few days when nothing in respect of the need to be wearing masks has changed.  They are an utter shambles.
		
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Have you forgotten about the VE Day celebrations and photos of packed beaches? And you think that trusting these people would be a good idea?


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Herd Immunity was proposed by the UK Chief Scientific Officer and rejected by the Government due to the expected high rate of deaths and overwhelming of the NHS.  Also, it's not easy to drink a pint or eat a Nandos with a mask on, is it .
https://www.vox.com/world/2020/3/15/21180414/coronavirus-uk-herd-immunity-vallance-johnson

Click to expand...

It isn't that simple. That story was just around the time when the Imperial modelling (again a terrible decision to use modelling rather than conventional public health) had shown that the human cost of herd immunity was high. This, when added to the debate that it was far from proven it could even work, caused the sudden realisation that the way the UK was proceeding, different to every other civilised country ahead of us in exposure terms, was a terrible idea. Valiance's error was to admit this policy in public when the Govt politicians were canny enough to keep it quiet. Anyway, it is still up to Govt to make the decisions. But the consequence of that realisation was that lockdown and other steps were needed right away. And the Govt hesitated. 

I've met Vallance, and wasn't all that impressed with some of his decisions in another context, so I don't doubt he may have made some more bad decisions. But I don't think he is the originator of herd immunity. 

In another part of this story, up until March 12th, the UK was doing contact tracing. Not through an expensive company owned by a party donor, but through Public Health England. Then the Govt decided to stop doing it because the demand was too great. So right at the time they needed it the most, they stopped doing it. It would have been pretty easy to scale up PHE capability then. And a decision was taken, not by Vallance, not to close down the airports. This was a critical mistake. Cheltenham, that Liverpool match in the Champions League and other events with lots of overseas visitors were allowed to go ahead during this period. Again, not Vallance's decision. 

The current trope of protecting the NHS needs some exploration. That could mean allowing the disease to run amok up to the point where NHS capacity of displacement of other treatments, becomes an issue. That is quite a window of morbidity and mortality. Is the public willing to see further culling of oldies, with a few unfortunate NHS frontline workers and youngies with bad luck too? Because once you let the genie out of the bottle, as we may be doing, it is very hard to put it back in again. 

One of the lessons of the Spanish flu was that if you don't nail down lockdown hard and make it work, you don't escape the virus. The US is learning that in a big way, but we are going to experience it too. We are currently in the waiting period before the bill for the early easing becomes due. Germany won't have anything like the same numbers.

There is a lot of debate on Covid on Doctors Net, a closed social media platform for UK doctors. Few there agree that lockdown was fast enough, that easing it was wise or that there isn't going to be a rebound.


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## Old Skier (Jul 14, 2020)

I wonder what the posts from some on here would be if the government had said “face masks from tomorrow “.


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

So we were told DomComs (read Govt) plan was herd immunity..  so if everyone gets it, we can get immunity and move on.   This may be fake news, but Italians now say that Covid has long term impacts long after being cured.   So much for the herd immunity construct.  Ofcourse, we can all hide behind the fact that this is new information and therefore not applicable.. 

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/coro...19-could-be-worse-than-first-thought-12027348


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'll remember to wear a tea cosy the next time I'm on a motorbike.

There is a reason different helmets, ear defenders and masks have different levels of protection.

Maybe the next time someone is going into an isolation room in Porton Down they should wear a pinny and a pretty scarf.

Seriously, ask yourself why there's different whatever depending on the risk.
		
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It’s not about the right level of protection, that’s not the government requirement. The government requests “face coverings” which could be anything. 

The right level of protection is to stay at home and forage in the woods, or an air fed mask if you so choose to buy one. Not non - fitted loose air escaping fabrics providing a placebo safety net.


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## road2ruin (Jul 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'll remember to wear a tea cosy the next time I'm on a motorbike.

There is a reason different helmets, ear defenders and masks have different levels of protection.

Maybe the next time someone is going into an isolation room in Porton Down they should wear a pinny and a pretty scarf.

Seriously, ask yourself why there's different whatever depending on the risk.
		
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To be fair the language used differs from politician to politician. Face masks vs Face coverings. The latter suggests that those who have been using snoods, scarves etc can continue to do so, it doesn’t need to be a face mask.


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair the language used differs from politician to politician. Face masks vs Face coverings. The latter suggests that those who have been using snoods, scarves etc can continue to do so, it doesn’t need to be a face mask.
		
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Isnt it ironic that the guy who called people 'letterboxes' is asking all of us to become one..   Just Saying


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So we were told DomComs (read Govt) plan was herd immunity..  so if everyone gets it, we can get immunity and move on.   This may be fake news, but Italians now say that Covid has long term impacts long after being cured.   So much for the herd immunity construct.  Ofcourse, we can all hide behind the fact that this is new information and therefore not applicable..

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/coro...19-could-be-worse-than-first-thought-12027348

Click to expand...

Only one thing wrong (that makes a change) with your statement.

Herd immunity was not Cummings plan but was, initially,  advocated by Sir Patrick Vallance, Chief Scientific Officer.


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## drdel (Jul 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Prepare for what?

By now we should all be fully aware that measures that require the wearing of a face mask were always likely - and I have no doubt that some will say that the government has done just that.  Therefore we should all have face masks to hand to enable us to respond to an immediate mandating of wearing a face mask in shops.

If we do *not *all have face masks then the governments messaging to the public on masks has been inadequate.

*And why pander to those who choose to refuse to comply or complain they weren't prepared?  On matters as important this is it not the case that our tolerance of such refusniks and complainants should be low.*

Click to expand...

Really! This is just so much noise for noise sake. 

When a Government mandates anything there is always a period of grace between the mandate being issued and the 'enforcement' date.

If the Government had insisted on immediate implementation I'd be willing to bet that your would have been hitting the keyboard claiming it guilty of an unreasonable draconian action by not giving notice.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Only one thing wrong (that makes a change) with your statement.

Herd immunity was not Cummings plan but was, initially,  advocated by Sir Patrick Vallance, Chief Scientific Officer.
		
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He is the Chief Scientific Adviser, actually, but as I said before, I suspect he was indiscreet in letting that slip and now people think he owns the idea when it was really a broader idea arising from data modelling. We all know who is the big data guy in Number 10.

Still Govt's choice to accept advice, and they clearly rejected a number of pieces of advice from their scientists.

Herd immunity depends on transmission causing an antibody response in enough people that further transmission dies out. It does not stop cases arising, though. Herd immunity is a very risky and unproven strategy, a very untypical public health strategy for an unknown virus, and I doubt that Chris Whitty was a fan. I find it hard to believe that Vallance, who is neither a public health doctor, epidemiologist nor virologist, could successfully advance the herd immunity strategy.

As noted above, Covid has several phases. There is an old fashioned respiratory phase, which can be bad, but there is also an inflammatory phase in some people, which causes organ damage in some or all of the heart, kidneys, liver, brain and circulation. This is what dexamethasone treats. It is a nasty disease and there is mounting evidence of "recovered" people having lasting organ damage.


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Only one thing wrong (that makes a change) with your statement.

Herd immunity was not Cummings plan but was, initially,  advocated by Sir Patrick Vallance, Chief Scientific Officer.
		
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It could be or may not be... cant believe anyone
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/07/03/...nce-advisory-group-on-dominic-cummings-watch/


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## pauljames87 (Jul 14, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The delay is simple. Go online and since this change of policy, public demand has already swept up huge numbers of masks and so delivery times are now being delayed until next week if not longer. What happens then, for example if you are shopping for vulnerable parents still shielding. You won't be allowed in any shop (and possibly fined). Give the majority time to get themselves sorted (and even ordering the day before yesterday would mean most are only being delivered yesterday or the next few days depending on whether express deliver or standard postage was paid). At that time it's right to enforce strictly and no mask = no entry. I thought masks were already mandatory at train stations and people wouldn't be allowed access to the complex or on trains but sit on any train I've been on and people are flouting this especially the 16-30 age grouo
		
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I ordered 3 reusable masks off eBay Friday just because I wanted one that was bit better with glasses 

Arrived today

£6 well spent, bet their triple price now


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## GB72 (Jul 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I ordered 3 reusable masks off eBay Friday just because I wanted one that was bit better with glasses

Arrived today

£6 well spent, bet their triple price now
		
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Just bought a 4 pack off odd balls for a tenner so got something a bit better than my snood and did a bit for charity at the same time


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## Crazyface (Jul 14, 2020)

I won't be buying any. I can (supermarket) shop without one as I work there. How stupid is this? Anything else I require I'll buy online now. 
Also, will small children / babies have to wear them in shops?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have you forgotten about the VE Day celebrations and photos of packed beaches? And you think that trusting these people would be a good idea?
		
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Whether I trust them or not is neither here nor there - but Gove - in his infinite wisdom thinks that they should be  - maybe he has forgotten.  Besides.  Why doubt them now when they are the same great British public who were trusted to understand issues of much greater complexity only a few years ago.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			He is the Chief Scientific Adviser, actually, but as I said before, I suspect he was indiscreet in letting that slip and now people think he owns the idea when it was really a broader idea arising from data modelling. We all know who is the big data guy in Number 10.

Still Govt's choice to accept advice, and they clearly rejected a number of pieces of advice from their scientists.

Herd immunity depends on transmission causing an antibody response in enough people that further transmission dies out. It does not stop cases arising, though. Herd immunity is a very risky and unproven strategy, a very untypical public health strategy for an unknown virus, and I doubt that Chris Whitty was a fan. I find it hard to believe that Vallance, who is neither a public health doctor, epidemiologist nor virologist, could successfully advance the herd immunity strategy.

As noted above, Covid has several phases. There is an old fashioned respiratory phase, which can be bad, but there is also an inflammatory phase in some people, which causes organ damage in some or all of the heart, kidneys, liver, brain and circulation. This is what dexamethasone treats. It is a nasty disease and there is mounting evidence of "recovered" people having lasting organ damage.
		
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It sounds like you want the Government to be responsible for trying to implement Herd Imunity and be seen to have ignored expert advice, it also seems like you use supposition driven by your personal dislike of anything the Conservatives do in your conclusions.  I know you are a qualified medical Doctor and have experience of working in the NHS and currently in the Private Sector but I would point out this doesn't give you any qualified insight to Government strategy and your accusations are personal opinion, just like mine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			Really! This is just so much noise for noise sake.

When a Government mandates anything there is always a period of grace between the mandate being issued and the 'enforcement' date.

If the Government had insisted on immediate implementation I'd be willing to bet that your would have been hitting the keyboard claiming it guilty of an unreasonable draconian action by not giving notice.
		
Click to expand...

Just unable to accept any criticism of the government or its actions or plans.  Instead of accepting that the statements by Johnson and Gove have been - at best - very poor and lacking in clear guidance or direction as usual attention is turned on the messenger rather than the message. In any case, why do you think I would have complained if an immediate mandate On wearing of masks was declared.  We have prep’d for such a situation and have a small number of masks - certainly enough to cope with a couple of weeks of food and essentials shopping. And we’ve had them for a couple of months.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I wonder what the posts from some on here would be if the government had said “face masks from tomorrow “.
		
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Maybe they would have said ‘not before time’


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 14, 2020)

It was eye bleedingly obvious that masks would become compulsory.
We bought ours 4 weeks ago.

Just starting on the new Brexit stockpile list now that Covid 19 has depleted some supplies.
At least we have a better idea of what to buy now.


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## DanFST (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, we could have suppressed the virus if the Govt had not decided to do a stupid, dangerous, snd we now know, ineffective herd immunity strategy. That would have included closing inward travel and locking down much sooner. This idea of protecting the NHS is all fine and dandy so long as you accept that it is virtually impossible to calibrate public policy to allow a modest number of cases.
		
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We have a modest amount of cases. We can and have coped. How is herd immunity ineffective? You say it's unproven, there has never been a pandemic of this scale in modern times..... What other option is there currently? The City can't function with extended periods of closed borders, let alone anything that needs production abroad or importing in. Were we just supposed to stay in full lockdown with closed borders until a vaccine may or may not appear?

Sweden didn't lockdown, has coped very well and it's GDP has only dropped 8% compared to most of Europes 25%. It's a case study into why I think you are wrong. Obviously it's all too early to tell at the moment.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It was eye bleedingly obvious that masks would become compulsory.
We bought ours 4 weeks ago.

Just starting on the new Brexit stockpile list now that Covid 19 has depleted some supplies.
At least we have a better idea of what to buy now.

Click to expand...

So it was obvious 4 weeks ago, not at the beginning!? 
It wasn’t obvious at all down here. I believe we only mandated it because sturgeon did and then pandered to some peoples insecurities and hysteria. It’s not very Boris Johnson at all to implement this. He goes what is popular and I’d say this idea isn’t popular. 
I never saw many wearing a mask whenever I went shopping. Just old people and weirdos.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I won't be buying any. I can (supermarket) shop without one as I work there. How stupid is this? Anything else I require I'll buy online now. 
Also, will small children / babies have to wear them in shops?
		
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Why? Because you have to wear a mask?

Should argue your work should provide you with one . But they will be too scared of being sued if you died.

It's really no hardship to wear one..children under 11 don't have to wear them no.

Reusable one off eBay £5.. keep in your wallet if ness. Job done.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 15, 2020)

When face coverings were introduced in Scotland they interviewed a small shopkeeper and asked him if anyone had objected.
Just the one he said, he told me he would take his business elsewhere.

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer,


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## drdel (Jul 15, 2020)

I wonder if those complaining about the 'delay' in the mandated mask wearing date realise you do not have to wait👍👍


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## Billysboots (Jul 15, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I never saw many wearing a mask whenever I went shopping. Just old people and weirdos.
		
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So those nervous about this virus, especially those with underlying conditions, are “weirdos”?

I’m sure they’ll find your observation absolutely charming.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Au contraire, I have no opinion. Like I said, just quoting guidelines.
I was merely pointing out that there is no need for a 14 day lead up to the introduction of govt sanctioned face coverings.
It's really not worth getting worked up about. It demeans us all.
		
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What is worth getting worked up about is the way some on here grasp at every little opportunity that they see to have a bash at government decisions, as if they are made by Machiavellian minds to con the populace.
That is what is demeaning.


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## Kellfire (Jul 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What is worth getting worked up about is the way some on here grasp at every little opportunity that they see to have a bash at government decisions, as if they are made by Machiavellian minds to con the populace.
That is what is demeaning.
		
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Either this government sets out to deceive us or they’re incompetent. There’s no third option.


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## DRW (Jul 15, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Either this government sets out to deceive us or they’re incompetent. There’s no third option.
		
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With regards to this government, is that really the only two options you see ?  Does that apply to everything they do, or just everything to do with the virus ?

You see no other options at all ?


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## GB72 (Jul 15, 2020)

I am a bit in 2 minds about this. Am I convinced that face coverings (as opposed to decent quality face masks) a massive difference, I am not sure. Do I think that it was a necessary step to make the wider public more confident about going to shops etc, yes and that is why it is important. The world keeps turning and in the absence of a vaccine, we need to do all we can to encourage people to live as normal a life as possible. The rule had to be strict and the punishments quite severe in order to give people confidence that if they go shopping everyone will have a mask on. Whether basic face coverings have an impact or are just a placebo, we will see. 

I think that the 10 day delay was essential before implementing. What you are saying is that people are banned from any form of shopping, including food and essentials, without a face covering. By imposing the rule that strictly, a time period had to be allowed for people to prepare. Having seen the rush on many items in lockdown, face coverings at a reasonable price are going to far harder to get hold of (look at some of the price gouging on amazon) and so a bit of time is needed to get everything in place. 

I appreciate that the need for face coverings has seemed inevitable to so some for a while, but not everyone and so time was needed to ensure that people were not cut off from essential supplies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			I wonder if those complaining about the 'delay' in the mandated mask wearing date realise you do not have to wait👍👍
		
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The point is that many _will _wait...because wearing a mask is not essential now.  And then I suspect in ten days time many will wonder why it has becomes essential _that _day, and so won't bother. 

In pretty much the same way that having front and rear lights on a bike is mandatory under law - however many just don't bother as censure and punishment are considered unlikely and the risk of accident as a result of not having lights is perceived to be low.  Besides - for many younger cyclists it's kinda uncool to have lights on your bike - a bit of a sign of rebellion against authority.  

And likewise I suggest will masks be seen by many.  Thinking it's going to be up to the public to reprimand non-wearers, that's going to be fun...


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thinking it's going to be up to the public to reprimand non-wearers, that's going to be fun...
		
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Surely it will be up to shops to refuse entry to those not wearing masks and then for the police to enforce it if needed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am a bit in 2 minds about this. Am I convinced that face coverings (as opposed to decent quality face masks) a massive difference, I am not sure. Do I think that it was a necessary step to make the wider public more confident about going to shops etc, yes and that is why it is important. The world keeps turning and in the absence of a vaccine, we need to do all we can to encourage people to live as normal a life as possible. The rule had to be strict and the punishments quite severe in order to give people confidence that if they go shopping everyone will have a mask on. Whether basic face coverings have an impact or are just a placebo, we will see.

I think that the 10 day delay was essential before implementing. What you are saying is that people are banned from any form of shopping, including food and essentials, without a face covering. By imposing the rule that strictly, a time period had to be allowed for people to prepare. Having seen the rush on many items in lockdown, face coverings at a reasonable price are going to far harder to get hold of (look at some of the price gouging on amazon) and so a bit of time is needed to get everything in place.

I appreciate that the need for face coverings has seemed inevitable to so some for a while, but not everyone and so time was needed to ensure that people were not cut off from essential supplies.
		
Click to expand...

If a shopkeeper is worried abut losing custom due to individuals not going into their shop as they are not wearing a mask, then the shopkeeper can decide whether or not to invest in masks to hand out to potential customers who don't have one.

We (and the government) have had weeks if not months to prepare for the possibility that we'd have to wear masks.  If nothing else the government could have arranged for masks to be supplied free to every single household in the country.  I think @Hobbit indicated that that is what has been done in Spain?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely it will be up to shops to refuse entry to those not wearing masks and then for the police to enforce it if needed.
		
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I think the Police have said they won't be in a position to enforce it.  Yes - they could enforce it if we had to wear a mask in public (full stop) as we could be stopped at any point by passing police.  But police getting called to individual shops becuase individual customers won't wear a mask.  Not going to happen. 

More likely it's going to be as we individually enforce passengers in our car to wear a seat belt; and how we pull people up for smoking inside a public space or for dropping litter.

And according to Hancock this morning we might as well get used to it - as he's advised us that we will be wearing masks on public transport and in shops for the foreseeable future - with him giving no end date.


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## Beezerk (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think the Police have said they won't be in a position to enforce it.  Yes - they could enforce it if we had to wear a mask in public (full stop) as we could be stopped at any point by passing police.  But police getting called to individual shops becuase individual customers won't wear a mask.  Not going to happen.
		
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So who is going to be the first to post a photo of the police at a shop on the 24th July for a facemask violation? 🤣
Of course some shops are going to call the police, it will all be filmed by some gimp and posted all over Facebook quicker than you can say Brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 15, 2020)

If I, and I would imagine many others, walked into a shop and saw people not wearing masks I would walk out.
It works both ways. Shopkeepers will have a difficult time.

PS Simple little tip from a medical friend....on the bog standard masks if you twist the elasticated ear loops they fit much tighter.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I think the Police have said they won't be in a position to enforce it.  *Yes - they could enforce it if we had to wear a mask in public (full stop) as we could be stopped at any point by passing police. * But police getting called to individual shops becuase individual customers won't wear a mask.  Not going to happen.*

Click to expand...

You are completely wrong on both the bits in bold. The spokesman on TV yesterday made a right hash of the information and had to issue a statement later to correct what he had said. What the police have said was that they wouldn't be patrolling shops to enforce the law but they will enforce it if they are called to a shop.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2020)

DanFST said:



			We have a modest amount of cases. We can and have coped. How is herd immunity ineffective? You say it's unproven, there has never been a pandemic of this scale in modern times..... What other option is there currently? The City can't function with extended periods of closed borders, let alone anything that needs production abroad or importing in. Were we just supposed to stay in full lockdown with closed borders until a vaccine may or may not appear?

Sweden didn't lockdown, has coped very well and it's GDP has only dropped 8% compared to most of Europes 25%. It's a case study into why I think you are wrong. Obviously it's all too early to tell at the moment.
		
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OK, so in your opinion, what particular aspect have I got wrong?

Sweden has not coped that well, actually. Compare against Denmark and Norway, a lot more deaths. It isn't a case study either, it is an anecdote. The question is not how much GDP has dropped, but how fast it will recover and how durable it will be. Sweden's leading epidemiologist is a lot less bullish on their strategy than he was. Germany had a better approach. Traditional public health lockdown, effective tracing and testing and they have done better than anywhere else around here, including Sweden. 

As for herd immunity, there has never been a successful example of a nation allowing an infection to run rampant in order to confer immunity. For a start, the initial assumptions on likely death rates were wrong, and much of the knowledge about long term complications was unknown. With a new virus, it should be assumed we do not know enough about to to make wild assumptions about how it will affect people. But the Govt here did;t look at the unfolding crisis in Italy and Spain, they did mathematical modelling. And the assumptions in those models turned out to be wrong. 

Secondly, some people imagine that herd immunity means the virus goes away once 60 odd % get infected. It doesn't. It just can't propogate on an exponential scale any more, but can have a long tail. There will still be cases, and most of those will be in older people released from lockdown/shielding. 

Thirdly, herd immunity requires that infection confers a durable immunity. We now know that immunity is variable and in some cases transient. It seems likely that this is related to the viral load, and it is possible, though unproven, that vaccination might confer a stronger effect. 

When Vallance let slip at that briefing that herd immunity was the strategy, as a former public health doctor I was shocked. I know that many other public health, infectious disease and other doctors were too. It was a fantastically risky and reckless strategy. Best case scenario was that the Govt was willing to accept several tens of thousands of death and several hundreds of thousands of hospitalisations to allow it. Worst case there would have been many more of both, but no population immunity. It runs 180 degrees counter to the public health approach of caution and over reaction being better than under reaction.


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## GB72 (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If a shopkeeper is worried abut losing custom due to individuals not going into their shop as they are not wearing a mask, then the shopkeeper can decide whether or not to invest in masks to hand out to potential customers who don't have one.

We (and the government) have had weeks if not months to prepare for the possibility that we'd have to wear masks.  If nothing else the government could have arranged for masks to be supplied free to every single household in the country.  I think @Hobbit indicated that that is what has been done in Spain?
		
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Totally disagree, this is a national issue not one to to be left to individual shopkeepers. It is about restoring confidence for people to go shopping in the first place. Even on something as simple as en environmental level, it must be better to encourage people to buy re-usable face coverings than have every shop (or the government) handing out millions of disposable ones. Oh, and whilst we are still building up NHS PPE resources, not exactly practical to buy what, 10 masks each if they are disposable, so about half a billion masks that will then end up in landfill as well.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Germany had a better approach. Traditional public health lockdown, effective tracing and testing and they have done better than anywhere else around here, including Sweden.
		
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Is part of that due to how they are reporting/counting Coronavirus deaths? I read that if someone in the UK has a heart attack but tests positive for the virus it is classed as due to Coronavirus in the statistics, whereas in Germany it's classed as a death with the virus rather than due to it so doesn't appear in the total deaths.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It sounds like you want the Government to be responsible for trying to implement Herd Imunity and be seen to have ignored expert advice, it also seems like you use supposition driven by your personal dislike of anything the Conservatives do in your conclusions.  I know you are a qualified medical Doctor and have experience of working in the NHS and currently in the Private Sector but I would point out this doesn't give you any qualified insight to Government strategy and your accusations are personal opinion, just like mine.
		
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It is not a matter of opinion that the Govt tried a herd immunity strategy, it is unambiguously the case. They ignored expert advice, also demonstrably true. I make no apology for disliking the Tories, but it may surprise you to hear that I don't want a virus decimating my friends, family and colleagues in order to satisfy some sense of schadenfreude or prove that I was right in criccising them. You, on the other hand, could try to put away your Tory tinted spectacles and objectively appraise the situation in which we find ourselves rather than continue to defend everything they do. 

As for insight into Govt policy, I know how public health doctors think and the principles of handling an epidemic. So should you, because the WHO publicly explained them numerous times. Hint: it didn't include getting Cummings data analysts to develop mathematical models. Plenty of expert groups were exhorting the Govt to do the right thing, traditional public health measures, but they were slow and too timid to do it. In some cases they did exactly the opposite, stopping tracing in early March when they should have been ramping it up. Happy enough to splash fat contracts without tendering to their donor friends, though. Party before country, eh?


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is part of that due to how they are reporting/counting Coronavirus deaths? I read that if someone in the UK has a heart attack but tests positive for the virus it is classed as due to Coronavirus in the statistics, whereas in Germany it's classed as a death with the virus rather than due to it so doesn't appear in the total deaths.
		
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The real story is in excess deaths. The UK has more excess deaths than the reported numbers of Covid deaths. Germany has a lot fewer. Nobody seriously argues they haven't done a massively better job than us. 

The UK has tried to cook the books too, by the way, for example issuing instructions to coroners not to accept death certificates from outside hospital if someone was not test positive. Then if you don't provide testing to those people, no recorded death. Lots of doctors reporting care homes with lots of deaths but only a few officially classified.


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## Slab (Jul 15, 2020)

The guidance in this country was certainly clearer (wear a mask when in public) & yes police were at every supermarket, all day & when they eventually left as more shops opened then staff stood at every shop doorway and dispensed hand sanitizer & checked for mask compliance, no mask no entry 

But I still don't get that this is mass confusion item some media outlets are portraying it to be

Instruction: *Wear a mask in a shop*

From that short message basic common sense says; if you are in any doubt about a particular shop/retail outlet/cafe/fast food takeaway/trade counter/bank/golf club or any other business  or its for a particular purchase, collection, transaction that hasn't been made explicit enough for you or specifically named... just wear it anyway! 
_(there is no penalty for wearing a mask somewhere its not mandated, so what harm will it do if you wore it into an estate agent and it turns out it wasn't required?)_


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## DanFST (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			OK, so in your opinion, what particular aspect have I got wrong?

Sweden has not coped that well, actually. Compare against Denmark and Norway, a lot more deaths. It isn't a case study either, it is an anecdote. The question is not how much GDP has dropped, but how fast it will recover and how durable it will be. Sweden's leading epidemiologist is a lot less bullish on their strategy than he was. Germany had a better approach. Traditional public health lockdown, effective tracing and testing and they have done better than anywhere else around here, including Sweden.

As for herd immunity, there has never been a successful example of a nation allowing an infection to run rampant in order to confer immunity. For a start, the initial assumptions on likely death rates were wrong, and much of the knowledge about long term complications was unknown. With a new virus, it should be assumed we do not know enough about to to make wild assumptions about how it will affect people. But the Govt here did;t look at the unfolding crisis in Italy and Spain, they did mathematical modelling. And the assumptions in those models turned out to be wrong.

Secondly, some people imagine that herd immunity means the virus goes away once 60 odd % get infected. It doesn't. It just can't propogate on an exponential scale any more, but can have a long tail. There will still be cases, and most of those will be in older people released from lockdown/shielding.

Thirdly, herd immunity requires that infection confers a durable immunity. We now know that immunity is variable and in some cases transient. It seems likely that this is related to the viral load, and it is possible, though unproven, that vaccination might confer a stronger effect.

When Vallance let slip at that briefing that herd immunity was the strategy, as a former public health doctor I was shocked. I know that many other public health, infectious disease and other doctors were too. It was a fantastically risky and reckless strategy. Best case scenario was that the Govt was willing to accept several tens of thousands of death and several hundreds of thousands of hospitalisations to allow it. Worst case there would have been many more of both, but no population immunity. It runs 180 degrees counter to the public health approach of caution and over reaction being better than under reaction.
		
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Wrong was definitely the incorrect word, apologies. Just a different view.

I very much disagree RE: GDP. We are all level in Europe now the virus is somewhat under control, providing they (and all other countries hopefully) can stop 2nd large outbreak, they are in a much stronger position not having to come from a complete shutdown. RE: Swedens comparative death numbers. You are spot on, *however *they've recorded so many more cases. Denmarks death rate per recorded case is substantially higher. Is that something Denmark has done wrong? I don't think so. It's furthers my original view.

This virus will kill, it will kill a % of the population regardless of wether they receive treatment or not. With no sight of a vaccine we cannot wait and keep the virus out forever. It will come, people will die. Obviously working in your previous field, it's most likely a very different belief for you! My belief tho does stand on some sort of immunity, it's looking as you say like that may be temporary. If that's the case then I'm genuinely at a loss on what to do.

I do think we agree on a few things tho:

- A proper automatic, invasive and mandatory track and trace app is needed to return to any sort of normal way of life. Not a sham to benefit friends of the party. (not sure how legal this is with GDPR)
- Care homes were failed, Sweden locked them up, and sealed everyone in. It's disgusting how we acted, it's disgusting the Tories said if they had another chance they'd send *more* healthcare professionals into care homes.

Either way it's nice to have a discussion, rather then a political slanging match


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## drdel (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is not a matter of opinion that the Govt tried a herd immunity strategy, it is unambiguously the case. They ignored expert advice, also demonstrably true. I make no apology for disliking the Tories, but it may surprise you to hear that I don't want a virus decimating my friends, family and colleagues in order to satisfy some sense of schadenfreude or prove that I was right in criccising them. You, on the other hand, could try to put away your Tory *tinted spectacles and objectively *appraise the situation in which we find ourselves rather than continue to defend everything they do.

As for insight into Govt policy, I know how public health doctors think and the principles of handling an epidemic. So should you, because the WHO publicly explained them numerous times. Hint: it didn't include getting Cummings data analysts to develop mathematical models. Plenty of expert groups were exhorting the Govt to do the right thing, traditional public health measures, but they were slow and too timid to do it. In some cases they did exactly the opposite, stopping tracing in early March when they should have been ramping it up. Happy enough to splash fat contracts without tendering to their donor friends, though. Party before country, eh?
		
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IMO there is a danger you are letting your disdain colour you interpretation and are thereby letting your anti-Tory "*tinted spectacles " *prevent you seeing the wider picture. I respect you medical experience but the guys modelling are not idiots. It is not 'mathematical modelling' - these are simulations that use fuzzy logic as well as conventional quantitative input and a range of socio-economic 'model' pfd's. In the Universities of the UK we have some of the most expert 'modellers' and best AI professionals in the world. Your medical expertise and experience is fine but is only partly relevant: it also seems to major on the 20:20 benefit of hindsight.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The real story is in excess deaths. The UK has more excess deaths than the reported numbers of Covid deaths. Germany has a lot fewer. Nobody seriously argues they haven't done a massively better job than us.

The UK has tried to cook the books too, by the way, for example issuing instructions to coroners not to accept death certificates from outside hospital if someone was not test positive. Then if you don't provide testing to those people, no recorded death. Lots of doctors reporting care homes with lots of deaths but only a few officially classified.
		
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Cheers for the reply. I know our excess deaths are far higher than the recorded/announced virus deaths but haven't seen any figures for Germany, or indeed any other country. I'm bored at work so will have a google to see if I can find them.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers for the reply. I know our excess deaths are far higher than the recorded/announced virus deaths but haven't seen any figures for Germany, or indeed any other country. I'm bored at work so will have a google to see if I can find them.
		
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I think Germany had quite high infection rates but recorded fairly low deaths. If this is the case then something is amiss in their reporting.


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## DRW (Jul 15, 2020)

Whilst it is likely anti-bodies are not long lasting (as with Sars, 2-3 years and other coronavirus types), the evidence is growing with more studying over T cells being long lasting and the cross use of the T cells from the other forms of coron.

Hope its all true, as would be very good news moving forward, if a vaccine isn't found, another very recent study(seen 2 or 3 now like this one irrc) :-

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z

now where do I catch a cold from the coronavirus !


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think Germany had quite high infection rates but recorded fairly low deaths. If this is the case then something is amiss in their reporting.
		
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Or did they manage to protect the elderly and vulnerable better? If those catching it were younger, not at risk etc then that would explain it. I don't know the answer by the way but it would be an alternative suggestion to their figures.


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## Captainron (Jul 15, 2020)

There are a few videos online of people in America having proper hissy fits about having to wear a mask. It's hilarious because the words "my lawyer said it was okay", "I have a condition which means I can't wear a mask" or "it's against the law to refuse to let me in" come out of their mouths so often. 

Just wear a mask morons!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

Shelagh Fogerty comments in respect of Johnson in PMQs pointing the finger at Starmer's identifying government failures (as he Starmer sees them) as "knocking the public's confidence".

Well Fogerty is clear that over the last four months her confidence has not been knocked by the Opposition, but in the government by "It's incompetence; it's shabbiness; and it's lies" - and she is generally known for being balanced and objective in making honest assessments...

Incompetence, shabbiness and lies - yup - that pretty much sums it up for me - sadly


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## DRW (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The real story is in excess deaths. The UK has more excess deaths than the reported numbers of Covid deaths. Germany has a lot fewer. Nobody seriously argues they haven't done a massively better job than us.

The UK has tried to cook the books too, by the way, for example issuing instructions to coroners not to accept death certificates from outside hospital if someone was not test positive. Then if you don't provide testing to those people, no recorded death. Lots of doctors reporting care homes with lots of deaths but only a few officially classified.
		
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Personally in time, I think the real story wont be just excess deaths, I think the bigger story is, we will be looking at lost excess death years. Only have to think of cancer and how many will lose years off their lives due to late treatment or people living in poverty or people not going for treatment for X  problem in fear of getting the virus.

All very sad. Could be worse I suppose we could be looking at a more deadly pathogen that has occurred many times in history, with a death rate a lot higher. But still all very sad


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## bobmac (Jul 15, 2020)

Captainron said:



			There are a few videos online of people in America having proper hissy fits about having to wear a mask. It's hilarious because the words "my lawyer said it was okay", "I have a condition which means I can't wear a mask" or "it's against the law to refuse to let me in" come out of their mouths so often.

Just wear a mask morons!
		
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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Shelagh Fogerty comments in respect of Johnson in PMQs pointing the finger at Starmer's identifying government failures (as he Starmer sees them) as "knocking the public's confidence".

Well Fogerty is clear that over the last four months her confidence has not been knocked by the Opposition, but in the government by "It's incompetence; it's shabbiness; and it's lies" - and she is generally known for being balanced and objective in making honest assessments...

Incompetence, shabbiness and lies - yup - that pretty much sums it up for me - sadly  

Click to expand...

And what would you understand about 'balanced and objective'


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Shelagh Fogerty comments in respect of Johnson in PMQs pointing the finger at Starmer's identifying government failures (as he Starmer sees them) as "knocking the public's confidence".

Well Fogerty is clear that over the last four months her confidence has not been knocked by the Opposition, but in the government by "It's incompetence; it's shabbiness; and it's lies" - and she is generally known for being balanced and objective in making honest assessments...

Incompetence, shabbiness and lies - yup - that pretty much sums it up for me - sadly  

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If you are anti- Brexit and anti-government then Shelagh Fogarty will appear both balanced and objective. 

Otherwise neither of those adjectives would be applied to her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And what would you understand about 'balanced and objective'
		
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Have you listened to her?  If you do you'll understand.

So for instance she points out that when Johnson was in PMQs today asked about holding a Public Inquiry - he waffled a bit and waved his hands and arms about - and then said he'd indeed be holding an independent inquiry.  Not the same thing at all.

When asked whether he'd actually read the report on likelihood, size and impact of a Winter Spike - he said he was aware of it.

Johnson continually tries to cast Starmer as opposing everything the government is trying to do and by doing that Starmer is undermining public confidence and criticising the teams that carrying out such as Test and Trace - when in fact he isn't - he is merely asking searching questions of the PM and of the governments management of such as the T&T programme.  Apparently in Johnson's eyes Starmer is not allowed to be asking probing and fact-based questions.

So as far as Fogerty is concerned that sort of dissembling by Johnson is unacceptable in the crisis we are experiencing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			If you are anti- Brexit and anti-government then Shelagh Fogarty will appear both balanced and objective.

Otherwise neither of those adjectives would be applied to her.
		
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You listen?


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO there is a danger you are letting your disdain colour you interpretation and are thereby letting your anti-Tory "*tinted spectacles " *prevent you seeing the wider picture. I respect you medical experience but the guys modelling are not idiots. It is not 'mathematical modelling' - these are simulations that use fuzzy logic as well as conventional quantitative input and a range of socio-economic 'model' pfd's. In the Universities of the UK we have some of the most expert 'modellers' and best AI professionals in the world. Your medical expertise and experience is fine but is only partly relevant: it also seems to major on the 20:20 benefit of hindsight.
		
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My criticism is not of the modellers, whom I am sure are not idiots, or modelling itself, but the prominence of modelling in the hierarchy of this policy. There is an old saying 'All models are wrong, but some may be useful'. Modelling is based on assumptions which power the simulations, and is great for academic research and debate. If the assumptions are wrong, no amount of fuzzy logic will produce good data from them. The modellers clearly got those assumptions wrong because they changed them after being pressed to do so by other experts who had better data. The Imperial model was produced with too little external peer review, it now appears there was a large element of groupthink driving it. I have some inside information on the process. But modelling would have been fine if it had been supporting a traditional public health approach, like was the case in other places from S. Korea to Germany. The tracing system could have been expanded at a local level using PHE and community professionals. Instead a large contract was placed with Serco, and one of the Stewards of the Jockey Club, which pushed for Cheltenham to go ahead, placed as the head!

The WHO said at the outset that Govt's (not just this one) should test, test, test. They should trace and test close contacts as well as cases. This Govt stopped tracing in mid-March. At the time, the public health community warned that this was a very bad idea. No hindsight, foresight saying that we needed accurate data and to methodically identify cases. By the time the Govt got their risible test and trace system up, it was far too late. Pick up rates in T&T are abysmal and they don't even bother testing close contacts. It is a waste of time and money.

You are wrong to say it rests on hindsight. All the issues were raised and debated at the time by independent public health experts and other professionals. There was plenty of foresight and warnings in time to act. The idea was relatively simple. Lockdown asap, close the borders, test and trace widely. The UK had an advantage in being a bit further down the line than other European countries but we squandered that advantage.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You listen?
		
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She hasn't changed since her days on BBC Radio 5.


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Or did they manage to protect the elderly and vulnerable better? If those catching it were younger, not at risk etc then that would explain it. I don't know the answer by the way but it would be an alternative suggestion to their figures.
		
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An interesting exercise, if you're interested, is to look at the number of deaths in Germany in any recent year and the number of deaths this year. Obviously there's more this year but when you deduct the number of C19 deaths from the "more" you will see a gap. Maybe there's been more heart attacks and strokes, and maybe they were a consequence of getting Covid.

There was an article in the press over here a couple of months back in which Germany's counting methods were questioned. Quite what the true figure is I don't know, nor can be bothered to chase up the data, but I get a feeling counting methods might be in the mix somewhere.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			An interesting exercise, if you're interested, is to look at the number of deaths in Germany in any recent year and the number of deaths this year. Obviously there's more this year but when you deduct the number of C19 deaths from the "more" you will see a gap. Maybe there's been more heart attacks and strokes, and maybe they were a consequence of getting Covid.

There was an article in the press over here a couple of months back in which Germany's counting methods were questioned. Quite what the true figure is I don't know, nor can be bothered to chase up the data, but I get a feeling counting methods might be in the mix somewhere.
		
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I found the below graph on excess deaths and it certainly seems as though Germany have had many fewer than other countries.



I've no way of confirming the data accuracy but if true it does raise questions as to why Germany has fared so much better.

https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-...ng-excess-mortality-international-comparisons


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## drdel (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			My criticism is not of the modellers, whom I am sure are not idiots, or modelling itself, but the prominence of modelling in the hierarchy of this policy. *There is an old saying 'All models are wrong, but some may be useful'*. Modelling is based on assumptions which power the simulations, and is great for academic research and debate. If the assumptions are wrong, no amount of fuzzy logic will produce good data from them. The modellers clearly got those assumptions wrong because they changed them after being pressed to do so by other experts who had better data. The Imperial model was produced with too little external peer review, it now appears there was a large element of groupthink driving it. I have some inside information on the process. But modelling would have been fine if it had been supporting a traditional public health approach, like was the case in other places from S. Korea to Germany. The tracing system could have been expanded at a local level using PHE and community professionals. Instead a large contract was placed with Serco, and one of the Stewards of the Jockey Club, which pushed for Cheltenham to go ahead, placed as the head!

The WHO said at the outset that Govt's (not just this one) should test, test, test. They should trace and test close contacts as well as cases. This Govt stopped tracing in mid-March. At the time, the public health community warned that this was a very bad idea. No hindsight, foresight saying that we needed accurate data and to methodically identify cases. By the time the Govt got their risible test and trace system up, it was far too late. Pick up rates in T&T are abysmal and they don't even bother testing close contacts. It is a waste of time and money.

You are wrong to say it rests on hindsight. All the issues were raised and debated at the time by independent public health experts and other professionals. There was plenty of foresight and warnings in time to act. The idea was relatively simple. Lockdown asap, close the borders, test and trace widely. The UK had an advantage in being a bit further down the line than other European countries but we squandered that advantage.
		
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"*There is an old saying 'All models are wrong, but some may be useful'" *Glib comment that rather devalues your post. Clearly you are not up to speed with modern techniques of simulation and their application.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you listened to her?  If you do you'll understand.

So for instance she points out that when Johnson was in PMQs today asked about holding a Public Inquiry - he waffled a bit and waved his hands and arms about - and then said he'd indeed be holding an independent inquiry.  Not the same thing at all.

When asked whether he'd actually read the report on likelihood, size and impact of a Winter Spike - he said he was aware of it.

Johnson continually tries to cast Starmer as opposing everything the government is trying to do and by doing that Starmer is undermining public confidence and criticising the teams that carrying out such as Test and Trace - when in fact he isn't - he is merely asking searching questions of the PM and of the governments management of such as the T&T programme.  Apparently in Johnson's eyes Starmer is not allowed to be asking probing and fact-based questions.

So as far as Fogerty is concerned that sort of dissembling by Johnson is unacceptable in the crisis we are experiencing.
		
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My question was 'And what would you understand about balanced and objective'


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe they would have said ‘not before time’
		
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No, you are so transparent that we all know you would have been first in the queue to accuse Boris and government of failing to give adequate notice.
As it happens, it would have been a valid criticism because not all , mostly older, people have the knowledge or means to order masks within a day or so.
But funnily enough, you only relate this subject to your personal situation, ( you say you have masks), and not to what others may find themselves in.🤔


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## Foxholer (Jul 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My question was 'And what would you understand about balanced and objective'
		
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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			"*There is an old saying 'All models are wrong, but some may be useful'" *Glib comment that rather devalues your post. Clearly you are not up to speed with modern techniques of simulation and their application.
		
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So you pick out one line and glibly dismiss it as being glib without commenting on any of the rest.

OK, explain to me how using data from the Spanish flu for the first iteration of the Imperial model was better than using data coming from Italy in real time.

Please refrain from all glibness and be lavish with the details. Bring us all up to speed, if indeed you are there yourself. You have not yet shown any evidence of that, just a willingness to criticise.

The quotation is widely cited in maths and stats, by the way, as a warning to those who overvalue models, because whether you like it or not, or throw in as much fuzzy logic as you like, they are all incomplete. Perhaps you are one of those who should heed it rather than dismiss it.

Models


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I found the below graph on excess deaths and it certainly seems as though Germany have had many fewer than other countries.

View attachment 31637

I've no way of confirming the data accuracy but if true it does raise questions as to why Germany has fared so much better.

https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-...ng-excess-mortality-international-comparisons

Click to expand...

There is no serious debate that Germany has done such better, whether there are some differences in case recording or not. The likely answers are simple - preparedness, swift decision action, early vigorous testing and tracing and a cautious approach to reopening.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is no serious debate that Germany has done such better, whether there are some differences in case recording or not. The likely answers are simple - preparedness, swift decision action, early vigorous testing and tracing and a cautious approach to reopening.
		
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Testing and tracing doesnt make people with Covid better. If Germany were getting high infection rates why would they get lower death rates unless as previously mentioned it's less vunerable people being affected or they have better ways of dealing with the virus. 
Germany have had 70% of the UKs infections but only 20% of the deaths recorded.


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## Foxholer (Jul 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is no serious debate that Germany has done such better, whether there are some differences in case recording or not. The likely answers are simple - preparedness, swift decision action, early vigorous testing and tracing and a cautious approach to reopening.
		
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I'm still fairly dubious about the reporting methods/approaches by various/many countries that DO contribute. It's telling - well, to me at least - that UK has stopped a couple of key stat items. Similar happened when Boris (?) randomly made the '100K tests/day' announcement, then kludged (actually, lied about imo!) achieving it! Of course, this doesn't mean other countries aren't fudging the figures (though my home one has done fantastically!).
Of course, the worst of all, by pretty much whatever measurement, is USA! Yet Trump is still saying HE has done a fantastic job handling it! The UK's 'Deaths per Million population' is still far too high! I suspect population/acre could well be a factor!


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## Mudball (Jul 15, 2020)

Thank God, Labour is not in power.. else we would have called this omnishambles..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283376960106881026


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## Captainron (Jul 16, 2020)

bobmac said:









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They’re called Karen’s apparently.


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## Ethan (Jul 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'm still fairly dubious about the reporting methods/approaches by various/many countries that DO contribute. It's telling - well, to me at least - that UK has stopped a couple of key stat items. Similar happened when Boris (?) randomly made the '100K tests/day' announcement, then kludged (actually, lied about imo!) achieving it! Of course, this doesn't mean other countries aren't fudging the figures (though my home one has done fantastically!).
Of course, the worst of all, by pretty much whatever measurement, is USA! Yet Trump is still saying HE has done a fantastic job handling it! The UK's 'Deaths per Million population' is still far too high! I suspect population/acre could well be a factor!
		
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Reporting systems clearly vary, as do death certification policies. But Germany has done next in Europe by anyone's assessment. The UK has probably done the worst. The US could do horribly. Trump owns a lot of those deaths through his unwillingness to take it seriously fast enough.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Reporting systems clearly vary, as do death certification policies. But Germany has done next in Europe by anyone's assessment. The UK has probably done the worst. The US could do horribly. Trump owns a lot of those deaths through his unwillingness to take it seriously fast enough.
		
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Dont individuals have responsibility for their actions or is it soely the responsibility of the Presedent or Prime minister. Surely we all know how this virus is transported and the potential it has to kill or dissable.  We have all seen people giving no regard to social distancing or risk taking, it's too easy to blame the leader or the government for everything and  certain people do it with absolutely no balance or reasoning.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

Child


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## banjofred (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont individuals have responsibility for their actions or is it soely the responsibility of the Presedent or Prime minister. Surely we all know how this virus is transported and the potential it has to kill or dissable.  We have all seen people giving no regard to social distancing or risk taking, it's too easy to blame the leader or the government for everything and  certain people do it with absolutely no balance or reasoning.
		
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There are all kinds of rules that need to be put in place *just because* you can't trust everybody to do the right thing. That's why Govt's put in speed limits, rules on seat belts, no nuclear bombs in the house etc etc. The Govt isn't responsible for everything, but there are some basic smart things that they do need to insist on. Heck, all I have to do is think about what happens on the golf course....lot's of people don't even try to fix their divots. It's simple to do....but they just aren't going to do it and unless you *make* them somehow....they aren't going to do it. Our course took all the garbage cans away from the holes once we locked down.....so plenty of people just started throwing their trash on the ground. Idiots.....but there are plenty of idiots.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont individuals have responsibility for their actions or is it soely the responsibility of the Presedent or Prime minister. Surely we all know how this virus is transported and the potential it has to kill or dissable.  We have all seen people giving no regard to social distancing or risk taking, it's too easy to blame the leader or the government for everything and  certain people do it with absolutely no balance or reasoning.
		
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Being in government/office is about taking responsibility... If not willing or unable to do so move aside... As all governments eventually find out there are no hiding places when failure occurs...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

banjofred said:



			There are all kinds of rules that need to be put in place *just because* you can't trust everybody to do the right thing. That's why Govt's put in speed limits, rules on seat belts, no nuclear bombs in the house etc etc. The Govt isn't responsible for everything, but there are some basic smart things that they do need to insist on. Heck, all I have to do is think about what happens on the golf course....lot's of people don't even try to fix their divots. It's simple to do....but they just aren't going to do it and unless you *make* them somehow....they aren't going to do it. Our course took all the garbage cans away from the holes once we locked down.....so plenty of people just started throwing their trash on the ground. Idiots.....but there are plenty of idiots.
		
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But those things do get put in place but you cant hold politicians personally responsible for people deciding to ignore them, unless you want a police state.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Being in government/office is about taking responsibility... If not willing or unable to do so move aside... As all governments eventually find out there are no hiding places when failure occurs...
		
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As I said previously, you cant blame politicians for the idiotic behaviour of people deciding to disobey the rules to keep them safe.


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## Ethan (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont individuals have responsibility for their actions or is it soely the responsibility of the Presedent or Prime minister. Surely we all know how this virus is transported and the potential it has to kill or dissable.  We have all seen people giving no regard to social distancing or risk taking, it's too easy to blame the leader or the government for everything and  certain people do it with absolutely no balance or reasoning.
		
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In this country Public Health is clearly, and in statute, the responsibility of Government.

People should of course act responsibly. It is more likely to happen if the Govt gives them clear sensible advice. Individuals sometimes find it quite tricky to close down migration, bulk purchase PPE for NHS staff, or to set up testing laboratories, though. 

As for 'we all know this virus has the potential to kill or disable'. Well, we do now. Not so long ago this Govt thought this virus was more or less harmless to younger people and those with no co-morbidities and were happy to let to sweep through that part of the population.


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## Foxholer (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Child
		
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Oh the irony! Again!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			As I said previously, you cant blame politicians for the idiotic behaviour of people deciding to disobey the rules to keep them safe.
		
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So, what "idiotic behaviour" did the poor souls that were taken whilst they thought they were in a place of safety... Or, what about those going about their daily lives, within the NHS and other 'keyworker' positions, that have contracted the virus? Politicians/government have responsibilities and they should own them or move on...


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## drdel (Jul 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			In this country Public Health is clearly, and in statute, the responsibility of Government.

People should of course act responsibly. It is more likely to happen if the Govt gives them clear sensible advice. Individuals sometimes find it quite tricky to close down migration, *bulk purchase PPE for NHS staff (1),* or to set up testing laboratories, though.

As for 'we all know this virus has the potential to kill or disable'. Well, we do now. *Not so long ago this Govt thought (2) *this virus was more or less harmless to younger people and those with no co-morbidities and *were happy to let to sweep* *(3)* through that part of the population.
		
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1. Individual Trusts were advised to hold more PPE stock by previous administrations but decided to do their own thing.

2. A Government conclusion based of medical experts and worldwide consensus at the time and as knowledge improved advice changed.

3. Where/where and who has the Government were "happy" - this is an opinion not a statement of fact.

Another issue with international death comparisons - UK data uses the date of death recording not the date of death leads to administrative variability even in smoothed averages (not the same elsewhere).


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Oh the irony! Again!
		
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Child


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			So, what "idiotic behaviour" did the poor souls that were taken whilst they thought they were in a place of safety... Or, what about those going about their daily lives, within the NHS and other 'keyworker' positions, that have contracted the virus? Politicians/government have responsibilities and they should own them or move on...
		
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Of course people in the front line have contacted the virus but dont make out it was the direct policy of politicians. How could anyone consider treating Covid patients a 'safe place' the chance of contracting the virus will be greatly enhanced against people staying at home.
You know that the point I was making was about those of the general public who have decided to ignore safety practices, not front line staff. Cheap shot.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			In this country Public Health is clearly, and in statute, the responsibility of Government.

People should of course act responsibly. It is more likely to happen if the Govt gives them clear sensible advice. Individuals sometimes find it quite tricky to close down migration, bulk purchase PPE for NHS staff, or to set up testing laboratories, though.

As for 'we all know this virus has the potential to kill or disable'. Well, we do now. Not so long ago this Govt thought this virus was more or less harmless to younger people and those with no co-morbidities and were happy to let to sweep through that part of the population.
		
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People have been informed of the risks and how to reduce them. If some decide to take stupid risks then how do you consider the government stop them.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			So, what "idiotic behaviour" did the poor souls that were taken whilst they thought they were in a place of safety... Or, what about those going about their daily lives, within the NHS and other 'keyworker' positions, that have contracted the virus? Politicians/government have responsibilities and they should own them or move on...
		
Click to expand...

What they didn’t do and what people don’t still not do is that first bit of government advice from the very beginning. Stay at home. 
They disastrously and wrongly trusted you me and the U.K. to do the right thing without draconian lockdown measures. 
As a nation we stuffed up. 
None of us should of been out doing what you liked cycling 20 miles, playing golf, going to the pub, visiting family and parties. 
The option is there to do those things, it doesn’t mean you should but as people continue to do those things, they tell the government we aren’t bothered. 

We’re only human and we are all selfish.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course people in the front line have contacted the virus but dont make out it was the direct policy of politicians. How could anyone consider treating Covid patients a 'safe place' the chance of contracting the virus will be greatly enhanced against people staying at home.
You know that the point I was making was about those of the general public who have decided to ignore safety practices, not front line staff. Cheap shot.
		
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There's the thing... IF government had applied some six P management after the most recent exercise/trial with regard pandemic preparedness they may well have been ahead of the curve rather than being so far behind as they found themselves...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			There's the thing... IF government had applied some six P management after the most recent exercise/trial with regard pandemic preparedness they may well have been ahead of the curve rather than being so far behind as they found themselves...
		
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Do you honestly believe the scientists and medical experts along with the expertise in the NHS  and Civil Service dont understand basic management (when I studied management 6 ps were marketing) techniques.  Maybe they need to get you in with your six P management techniques to put them right. 🙄  This virus has struck the World to its knees, dont try to trivialise the situation.


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## Ethan (Jul 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			1. Individual Trusts were advised to hold more PPE stock by previous administrations but decided to do their own thing.

2. A Government conclusion based of medical experts and worldwide consensus at the time and as knowledge improved advice changed.

3. Where/where and who has the Government were "happy" - this is an opinion not a statement of fact.

Another issue with international death comparisons - UK data uses the date of death recording not the date of death leads to administrative variability even in smoothed averages (not the same elsewhere).
		
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Still waiting on answers to your last post too, by the way.

On this set:

1. The responsibility for pandemic planning is a Governmental one. Even you must know that. Exercise Cygnus in 2016 warned of the hazards of localised and fragmented plans. The Govt could easily have mandated Trusts to hold more, if indeed it was their responsibility. There are plenty of legislative and financial levers to do so. 

2. It was most certainly not the local or worldwide consensus that a herd immunity strategy was anything other than hideously reckless and likely ineffective. The idea was based on the modelling you like so much. As I pointed out before, Imperial did not get proper peer review on it sooner, or the errors in the model would have been detected sooner. Oh, and "happy" means willing to allow a policy, as you know well. It is not an opinion that they were pursuing such a policy. It is a fact, as blurted out by Vallance, nicely allowing him to carry the can for it. . 

3. The data of death recording makes sod all difference to the number of excess deaths, or the overall pattern of the disease, and it certainly does not explain any international differences. There are a number of differences between recording systems. Some other countries may have, as the UK did, instructed corners to refuse death certificates with Covid on them unless there was a positive test. Others didn't.


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## Foxholer (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Child
		
Click to expand...

Oh the irony!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 16, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			What they didn’t do and what people don’t still not do is that first bit of government advice from the very beginning. Stay at home.
They disastrously and wrongly trusted you me and the U.K. to do the right thing without draconian lockdown measures.
As a nation we stuffed up.
None of us should of been out doing what you liked cycling 20 miles, playing golf, going to the pub, visiting family and parties.
The option is there to do those things, it doesn’t mean you should but as people continue to do those things, they tell the government we aren’t bothered.

We’re only human and we are all selfish.
		
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There's the thing... Government went ostrich sat on their hands and prevaricated... Being anti-establishment I don't have much truck with the nanny state... In circumstances when others inaction can act negatively for the many government needs to grow a pair step up and take charge and own the situation... Being nice, trying to win friends, really doesn't cut it against unseen 'enemies'... The "selfish"...


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## MegaSteve (Jul 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe the scientists and medical experts along with the expertise in the NHS  and Civil Service dont understand basic management (when I studied management 6 ps were marketing) techniques.  Maybe they need to get you in with your six P management techniques to put them right. 🙄  This virus has struck the World to its knees, dont try to trivialise the situation.
		
Click to expand...


Other parts of the World have managed the situation way better than our government... Largely, reputedly, due to far better preparedness and taking charge with a firmer grip...


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## drdel (Jul 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			There's the thing... *IF government had applied some six P management *after the most recent exercise/trial with regard pandemic preparedness they may well have been ahead of the curve rather than being so far behind as they found themselves...
		
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Sounds good but I think there would be very practical issues with implementation and parameters. Many organisations play lip-service to the concept but very few fully commit and get it right.


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## Foxholer (Jul 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Sounds good but I think there would be very practical issues with implementation and parameters. Many organisations play lip-service to the concept but very few fully commit and get it right.
		
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I agree! Though it also seems like (yet) another excuse for Government (Tory?) ineptitude! 6P and other 'formal' processes (5/6 Sigma etc) while appropriate in some areas (IT or other 'Projects' for example), has limitations in environments where 'constant change' is one of the major parameters to manage!
In the end these all come down to the quality/adaptability of the Project Leader - in this case, Boris and his Cabinet! - and their collective reactive decision-making! After initial good impressions, several of their (cover-up) actions have been unimpressive! Mind you, I'm pretty sure 'the other lot' would have acted fairly similarly! 
Tom me, it's not particularly a time for party politics - Boris's particular traits - positive and negative - aside!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Other parts of the World have managed the situation way better than our government... Largely, reputedly, due to far better preparedness and taking charge with a firmer grip...
		
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Again a simplistic comment. You cant just say other parts of the world have done better, its almost impossible to make comparisons and this is nowhere over yet.
Great news on the UKs progress on a vaccine today, we seem to be doing better than many other countries there or would you like to pour cold water over that and suggest that bit is nothing to do with our government.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2020)

Handcock totally refused to answer Whitford's questions in the HoC yesterday. The Deputy Madam Speaker just let it go.
Utter arrogance. What happened to Scotland leading us not leaving us.
I think it is about time the SNP removed it's MP's from Westminster.


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Still waiting on answers to your last post too, by the way.

On this set:

1. The responsibility for pandemic planning is a Governmental one. Even you must know that. Exercise Cygnus in 2016 warned of the hazards of localised and fragmented plans. The Govt could easily have mandated Trusts to hold more, if indeed it was their responsibility. There are plenty of legislative and financial levers to do so.
		
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Are you suggesting that with all the top heavy staff the NHS have that the government has to come up with the plan to deal with the involvement in NHS matters.  If that is the case what are all those Directors of the is and Directors of that there for, to fight the fire when its happened.  Those that run the NHS are responsible for planning, the government is there to assist in the implementation of the plan.

When the military go to war, they don't expect the government to tell them how to fight it.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			Sounds good but I think there would be very practical issues with implementation and parameters. Many organisations play lip-service to the concept but very few fully commit and get it right.
		
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When working for a big corporate I'd occasionally get the 'pleasure' of attending [tax deductible] business study courses... And, on my return to work resident senior management would ask if I had a good time and then more or less say I might as well forget/ignore what I've just learnt "as it is not applicable in the real world" ...

My point remains though... If shortcomings, in preparation, are identified then not properly addressed are fully exposed as having not been addressed when the worst occurs it is only reasonable the people [electorate] question its elected government as to why... Ahead of not being told what to do folk, in general, don't like deflection/finger pointing and will make their point known come next polling day...


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## Ethan (Jul 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are you suggesting that with all the top heavy staff the NHS have that the government has to come up with the plan to deal with the involvement in NHS matters.  If that is the case what are all those Directors of the is and Directors of that there for, to fight the fire when its happened.  Those that run the NHS are responsible for planning, the government is there to assist in the implementation of the plan.

When the military go to war, they don't expect the government to tell them how to fight it.
		
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I am most certainly suggesting that the response to a national issue needs to be coordinated from the centre. In this context, the Department of Health, as the agent of Govt, and the NHS need to act centrally and in a coordinated fashion. 

The fragmentation of the NHS, through the creation of Trusts, has made this more important now then ever. 

On a side issue, I agree there are far too many Directors of This and That who contribute nothing of value.


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am most certainly suggesting that the response to a national issue needs to be coordinated from the centre. In this context, the Department of Health, as the agent of Govt, and the NHS need to act centrally and in a coordinated fashion.

The fragmentation of the NHS, through the creation of Trusts, has made this more important now then ever.

On a side issue, I agree there are far too many Directors of This and That who contribute nothing of value.
		
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Agree that coordination from the centre is vital but I still think the planning of individual areas of responsibility is that of those placed in charge of those areas with the plan then being taken to the centre to be coordinated with other interested parties.


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## Ethan (Jul 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Agree that coordination from the centre is vital but I still think the planning of individual areas of responsibility is that of those placed in charge of those areas with the plan then being taken to the centre to be coordinated with other interested parties.
		
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I would say that delivery, and to a certain extent tactics, may be a local responsibility but planning and strategy should be central. The US is discovering this the hard way. Different state governors are taking different strategic approaches, and some of these are proving to be disastrous.

For example, masks. Now you may think masks are useful or you may they are not, but you probably agree there is no difference in their usefulness between California and Arizona, yet those two states are operating different policies based on prevailing political positions.

in a different context, the same wasteful practices happen locally in the NHS. When a new medicine is approved, drug formulary committees at all the Trusts review the data and reach a range of conclusions. But a new medicine works the same in Cumbria and Cornwall. One central verdict is quite enough.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I would say that delivery, and to a certain extent tactics, may be a local responsibility but planning and strategy should be central. The US is discovering this the hard way. Different state governors are taking different strategic approaches, and some of these are proving to be disastrous.

For example, masks. Now you may think masks are useful or you may they are not, but you probably agree there is no difference in their usefulness between California and Arizona, yet those two states are operating different policies based on prevailing political positions.

in a different context, the same wasteful practices happen locally in the NHS. When a new medicine is approved, drug formulary committees at all the Trusts review the data and reach a range of conclusions. But a new medicine works the same in Cumbria and Cornwall. One central verdict is quite enough.
		
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Aren't some of those 'decisions' based on 'affordability' (or perhaps value for money)? It seems to me that there's scope, given the Trust situation, for  different Trusts to opt for different approaches, depending on their particular circumstances - which could be affected by 'investment' costs as much as any other.

And Btw. The autonomy of states is, while strangely strange to many/most UK folk, something that is extremely important to virtually every US citizen! And it (or a 'corruption of it') is, after all, the sort of 'federation' that many believe the EU hierarchy wish to impose (by creep!) on EU nations - though with considerable more 'federal' control!


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## drdel (Jul 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Still waiting on answers to your last post too, by the way.

On this set:

1. The responsibility for pandemic planning is a Governmental one. *Even you must know that*. Exercise Cygnus in 2016 warned of the hazards of localised and fragmented plans. The Govt could *easily have mandated* Trusts to hold more, if indeed it was their responsibility. There are plenty of legislative and financial levers to do so.

2. It was most certainly not the local or worldwide consensus that a herd immunity strategy was *anything other than hideously reckless and likely ineffective*. The idea was *based on the modelling you like so much*. As I pointed out before, Imperial *did not get proper peer review* on it sooner, or the errors in the model would have been detected sooner. Oh, and "happy" means willing to allow a policy, as you know well. It is not an opinion that they were pursuing such a policy.* It is a fact, as blurted out* by Vallance, nicely allowing him to carry the can for it. .

3. The data of death recording *makes sod all difference* to the number of excess deaths, or the overall pattern of the disease, and it certainly does not explain any international differences. There are a number of differences between recording systems. Some other countries may have, as the UK did, instructed corners to refuse death certificates with Covid on them unless there was a positive test. Others didn't.
		
Click to expand...

You want answers or do you simply want to generate an argument...

You post in, what I think is a combative manner and dictatorial manner but I'd point out your opinions are just that..

Rather than looking for an argument how about engaging in a debate with respect for other posters experience/opinions. I generally respect the medical profession but note the spectrum of expertise can vary on whether you take Prof Chris Whitty or Dr Andrew Wakefield to be most credible.

You are correct that every plan and forecast is wrong. However epidemics and other socio-economic issues are impacted by time dynamic parameters. Their purpose is to provide insight, with benefit of the insight we can revise decisions that will be intended to avoid the probability of an unpleasant outcome. If we are successful in avoiding a high death rate then we, with the 20:20 hindsight, are happy the forecast or plan was adjusted. Future planning etc is improved by the knowledge acquired.

Epidemics are not comfortable self-stabilising systems, they are generally feed-forward systems which, by their very nature, are unstable. Automated stock market systems exhibit similar potentially damaging instabilities. It is no surprise that many of the best experts in simulation and econometrics find extremely well paid positions in the Financial sector.

The disdain expressed for simulation models is not shared by most thinkers grappling with complex, interdisciplinary situations. Molecular science, genetics and space etc would not progress at the pace it is able without the analytic speed of super-computer power behind complex simulation models. AI's self learning techniques enable these simulations to adapt to the dynamics of the known parameters.

Pseudo experts frequently hide behind 'professional' arrogance ("you're not a (doctor/soldier/banker/surgeon - retort) and deflect the expertise of others as being inadequate. Most real experts are comfortable in their area and, in my experience, welcome the chance to discuss the limits of their knowledge and open themselves to understand the 'unknown, unknowns.

With respect your post's comments on simulations are not fact and the opinions offered reveals to me a level that would make any attempt to answer the question fully and adequately would take more time that you'd spend reading it before decrying it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2020)

Listening to Johnson at the moment I am pleased to hear that the country is in a good place today in it's ability to manage the pandemic going forward.  That things are under control.  This enables the government to be able to give discretion and decision making to the pubic and employers.  And to enable things to get back to something like normality from November - and in time for Christmas.   All sounds good.

Getting goosebumps with his very positive statement.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			When working for a big corporate I'd occasionally get the 'pleasure' of attending [tax deductible] business study courses... And, on my return to work resident senior management would ask if I had a good time and then more or less say I might as well forget/ignore what I've just learnt "as it is not applicable in the real world" ...

My point remains though... If shortcomings, in preparation, are identified then not properly addressed are fully exposed as having not been addressed when the worst occurs it is only reasonable the people [electorate] question its elected government as to why... Ahead of not being told what to do folk, in general, don't like deflection/finger pointing and will make their point known come next polling day...
		
Click to expand...

You said that last time.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You said that last time.
		
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And it's still relevant! And maybe 'My point remains though' is appropriate.
Though, as I replied to the OP, a pure 6P may not be appropriate (in its specific-ness) to ALL situations - and this pandemic is an example of where fixed planning could well be counter-productive. 'Strategy of approach' could well be/have been a better 'method'.


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Johnson at the moment I am pleased to hear that the country is in a good place today in it's ability to manage the pandemic going forward.  That things are under control.  This enables the government to be able to give discretion and decision making to the pubic and employers.  And to enable things to get back to something like normality from November - and in time for Christmas.   All sounds good.

Getting goosebumps with his very positive statement.
		
Click to expand...

Said with honesty and feeling.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Johnson at the moment I am pleased to hear that the country is in a good place today in it's ability to manage the pandemic going forward.  That things are under control.  This enables the government to be able to give discretion and decision making to the pubic and employers.  And to enable things to get back to something like normality from November - and in time for Christmas.   All sounds good.

Getting goosebumps with his very positive statement.
		
Click to expand...

The point I believe is being kept quiet is the arrogant attitudes of so many young people who are refusing to abide by any rules.  I see it all the time and although it's not easy to change their behaviour we dont seem to be doing anything much about it.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			You want answers or do you simply want to generate an argument...

You post in, what I think is a combative manner and dictatorial manner but I'd point out your opinions are just that..

Rather than looking for an argument how about engaging in a debate with respect for other posters experience/opinions. I generally respect the medical profession but note the spectrum of expertise can vary on whether you take Prof Chris Whitty or Dr Andrew Wakefield to be most credible.

You are correct that every plan and forecast is wrong. However epidemics and other socio-economic issues are impacted by time dynamic parameters. Their purpose is to provide insight, with benefit of the insight we can revise decisions that will be intended to avoid the probability of an unpleasant outcome. If we are successful in avoiding a high death rate then we, with the 20:20 hindsight, are happy the forecast or plan was adjusted. Future planning etc is improved by the knowledge acquired.

Epidemics are not comfortable self-stabilising systems, they are generally feed-forward systems which, by their very nature, are unstable. Automated stock market systems exhibit similar potentially damaging instabilities. It is no surprise that many of the best experts in simulation and econometrics find extremely well paid positions in the Financial sector.

The disdain expressed for simulation models is not shared by most thinkers grappling with complex, interdisciplinary situations. Molecular science, genetics and space etc would not progress at the pace it is able without the analytic speed of super-computer power behind complex simulation models. AI's self learning techniques enable these simulations to adapt to the dynamics of the known parameters.

Pseudo experts frequently hide behind 'professional' arrogance ("you're not a (doctor/soldier/banker/surgeon - retort) and deflect the expertise of others as being inadequate. Most real experts are comfortable in their area and, in my experience, welcome the chance to discuss the limits of their knowledge and open themselves to understand the 'unknown, unknowns.

With respect your post's comments on simulations are not fact and the opinions offered reveals to me a level that would make any attempt to answer the question fully and adequately would take more time that you'd spend reading it before decrying it.
		
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With respect, I hope you had some mirrors available when you wrote that! As the same is entirely applicable to you/your _opinion_!
And FWIW...
I don't actually believe there is a recognised 'best' way to handle this ( the pandemic) issue. But there has certainly been a few dodgy decisions and cover-ups/shams by this government. I'm not saying HM's Opposition would have done better, but I'm certain any subsequent enquiry would(/will?) find Boris et al acted truly politically (in their own interest) many timesi


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## Ethan (Jul 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			You want answers or do you simply want to generate an argument...

You post in, what I think is a combative manner and dictatorial manner but I'd point out your opinions are just that..

Rather than looking for an argument how about engaging in a debate with respect for other posters experience/opinions. I generally respect the medical profession but note the spectrum of expertise can vary on whether you take Prof Chris Whitty or Dr Andrew Wakefield to be most credible.

You are correct that every plan and forecast is wrong. However epidemics and other socio-economic issues are impacted by time dynamic parameters. Their purpose is to provide insight, with benefit of the insight we can revise decisions that will be intended to avoid the probability of an unpleasant outcome. If we are successful in avoiding a high death rate then we, with the 20:20 hindsight, are happy the forecast or plan was adjusted. Future planning etc is improved by the knowledge acquired.

Epidemics are not comfortable self-stabilising systems, they are generally feed-forward systems which, by their very nature, are unstable. Automated stock market systems exhibit similar potentially damaging instabilities. It is no surprise that many of the best experts in simulation and econometrics find extremely well paid positions in the Financial sector.

The disdain expressed for simulation models is not shared by most thinkers grappling with complex, interdisciplinary situations. Molecular science, genetics and space etc would not progress at the pace it is able without the analytic speed of super-computer power behind complex simulation models. AI's self learning techniques enable these simulations to adapt to the dynamics of the known parameters.

Pseudo experts frequently hide behind 'professional' arrogance ("you're not a (doctor/soldier/banker/surgeon - retort) and deflect the expertise of others as being inadequate. Most real experts are comfortable in their area and, in my experience, welcome the chance to discuss the limits of their knowledge and open themselves to understand the 'unknown, unknowns.

With respect your post's comments on simulations are not fact and the opinions offered reveals to me a level that would make any attempt to answer the question fully and adequately would take more time that you'd spend reading it before decrying it.
		
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Oh dear, I appear to have upset you. I will leave it to others to judge whether I or you have offered arguments in favour of our views or just had a go. I don't believe I have had a go at your credentials, I don't even know what they are, but you have had a go at mine, so you are more guilty of the pseudo expert charge and professional arrogance that you accuse me of.

If you can put your anger aside, you will see that I have said I see a role for modelling and simulations, indeed I have commissioned modelling in another setting, but real experts in the field know that the usefulness is ultimately limited by the quality of the data put into them, and models are fundamentally simplistic, by necessity. This pandemic needed a traditional public health approach, as recommended by WHO, and used in countries that go to grip with it. Modelling is fine as a supplement and to inform, but modelling was used to drive policy decisions and that has proven to be a mistake. None of your waffle about fuzzy logic or AI or self-learning systems can change that fact.

So get off your high horse. Model it first, if you like.

In the absence of a more professional reply, I am done arguing with you.


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## GB72 (Jul 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The point I believe is being kept quiet is the arrogant attitudes of so many young people who are refusing to abide by any rules.  I see it all the time and although it's not easy to change their behaviour we dont seem to be doing anything much about it.
		
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Young people, especially those under 18, are always going to be an issue. They think themselves bullet proof at the best of times and the earlier press that this pandemic was only going to hurt the old or ill would not have helped. What do you do, fine the parents, use possible life wrecking criminal sanctions, no easy answer.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You said that last time.
		
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Probably because my basic premise hasn't altered... When electing a government I am hoping/expecting them to provide/deliver my 'aspirations'... My absolute basic aspiration is to be kept safe... Similarly, though somewhat a bit further down the pecking order, I want away from Brussels... Deliver or depart... Really quite straightforward...


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## pauljames87 (Jul 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The point I believe is being kept quiet is the arrogant attitudes of so many young people who are refusing to abide by any rules.  I see it all the time and although it's not easy to change their behaviour we dont seem to be doing anything much about it.
		
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Whilst I fully agree.. what about all groups who are moaning about masks?

One member on here being particularly vocal about it


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The point I believe is being kept quiet is the arrogant attitudes of so many young people who are refusing to abide by any rules.  I see it all the time and although it's not easy to change their behaviour we dont seem to be doing anything much about it.
		
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To be fair to the young, I've seen people of all ages through this with arrogant attitudes who refuse to abide by the rules. The worst, for a long time, were the elderly who stood out a mile up here as the worst offenders. Then the middle aged thought it was okay to pop round to friends houses for distanced drinks when they were not supposed to. Then it became the young. The reality is that no group is clear from blame, no group is entirely responsible.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The point I believe is being kept quiet is the *arrogant attitudes* of so many young people who are refusing to abide by any rules.  I see it all the time and although it's not easy to change their behaviour we dont seem to be doing anything much about it.
		
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I wouldn't deem it 'arrogant'! 'Selfish' - and in some cases 'ignorant' (the 'lacking in knowledge' description)  would be a better description imo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2020)

Everybody (?) can use public transport?  One of my buddies has just yesterday been told by his GP to shield due to some underlying conditions and historic cardiac issues.  He didn't get a letter back then.  He's not bothered asking previously but is thinking of going back to 'meetings' he attends.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair to the young, I've seen people of all ages through this with arrogant attitudes who refuse to abide by the rules. The worst, for a long time, were the elderly who stood out a mile up here as the worst offenders. Then the middle aged thought it was okay to pop round to friends houses for distanced drinks when they were not supposed to. Then it became the young. The reality is that no group is clear from blame, no group is entirely responsible.
		
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No different in so many ways from the attitude of younger cyclists to having lights on their bike - even though it is law...they either don't see the risk; can't be bothered or think it's just not cool for their bike or their personal image.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are you suggesting that with all the top heavy staff the NHS have that the government has to come up with the plan to deal with the involvement in NHS matters.  If that is the case what are all those Directors of the is and Directors of that there for, to fight the fire when its happened.  Those that run the NHS are responsible for planning, the government is there to assist in the implementation of the plan.

When the military go to war, they don't expect the government to tell them how to fight it.
		
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I don't expect government to tell the military how to fight...
However I do expect government to ensure the best interests of the people/electorate are maintained whilst the military are at war on our behalf... 

Same for the NHS who we aspire to ensure our wellbeing/safety...
IF they are not achieving our aspirations/expectations then government should be acting, on our behalf, to see the appropriate/right people/tools are in place...


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## banjofred (Jul 17, 2020)

Lady next door is at least a band 8? NHS....works from home ALL the time. NHS leases a car for her use....she just uses it for personal use. My wife's daughter is a band 6 with Blood and Transplant and is required to have her own car and works all around this part of the country......why the heck does the admin lady get a "free" lease car (this one is an Audi, last one was a BMW I think) and my wifes daughter who is *required* to travel has to get her own? Seems there is some money being wasted here......


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I wouldn't deem it 'arrogant'! 'Selfish' - and in some cases 'ignorant' (the 'lacking in knowledge' description)  would be a better description imo.
		
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'Arrogant' is the term I want to use, they have an inflated sense of their own vulnerability and self importance.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair to the young, I've seen people of all ages through this with arrogant attitudes who refuse to abide by the rules. The worst, for a long time, were the elderly who stood out a mile up here as the worst offenders. Then the middle aged thought it was okay to pop round to friends houses for distanced drinks when they were not supposed to. Then it became the young. The reality is that no group is clear from blame, no group is entirely responsible.
		
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Absolutely correct, all groups have a number of offenders but my personal observation is that it's so much more prevalent in the young.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I fully agree.. what about all groups who are moaning about masks?

One member on here being particularly vocal about it
		
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Nothing wrong with being an “anti masker”. 
 I just can’t go shopping! 

I intended on being stubborn, and I’ll always cut my nose off to spite my face. But I can go shopping when it’s coat/jacket weather to go with a snood and at night when there’s no queue. So limited options but I will avoid looking like an extra out the Mask of Zorro. Just got to do a big shop before the 24th and fill the garage freezer up.


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## bobmac (Jul 17, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Nothing wrong with being an “anti masker”.
I just can’t go shopping! 

I intended on being stubborn, and I’ll always cut my nose off to spite my face. But I can go shopping when it’s coat/jacket weather to go with a snood and at night when there’s no queue. So limited options but I will avoid looking like an extra out the Mask of Zorro. Just got to do a big shop before the 24th and fill the garage freezer up.
		
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If you dont want to wear a mask, you're going to hate wearing a ventilator


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Nothing wrong with being an “anti masker”.
I just can’t go shopping! 

I intended on being stubborn, and I’ll always cut my nose off to spite my face. But I can go shopping when it’s coat/jacket weather to go with a snood and at night when there’s no queue. So limited options but I will avoid looking like an extra out the Mask of Zorro. Just got to do a big shop before the 24th and fill the garage freezer up.
		
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Wondering how, even if you shop quiet times, you'll feel about being the 'odd man out' or when shoppers give you the eye or ask you to put on a mask or leave the shop.  Will you be apologetic, accepting and leave the shop?  Or will you act as many do when asked politely to do something they don't think they should have to do?


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wondering how, even if you shop quiet times, you'll feel about being the 'odd man out' or when shoppers give you the eye or ask you to put on a mask or leave the shop.  Will you be apologetic, accepting and leave the shop?  Or will you act as many do when asked politely to do something they don't think they should have to do?
		
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I’m allowed a *face covering* that covers my nose and mouth. Be that a scarf, bandana or a wrap of clingfilm.  I’m just against masks as they are irritating. 
It’s a choice, and it’s a choice I’ve made almost well before covid as is your choice of face covering.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If you dont want to wear a mask, you're going to hate wearing a ventilator
		
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Statistically bob, I’m more likely to intentionally harm myself than have to be on a ventilator. 
But yeah, I won’t be a fan. I’ve avoided an endoscopy for the same reason.


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## DanFST (Jul 18, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’m just against masks as they are irritating.
		
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I'm sure if masks could speak, they'd say worse about you. 

(In all seriousness, you seem to know the rules, decision is yours. But it seems an odd hill to die on.)


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## bobmac (Jul 18, 2020)

There are of course other reasons why some people don't wear masks, I wonder if they will be exempt.




Awwww, the proud parents


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## rudebhoy (Jul 18, 2020)

I wore a mask for the first time while shopping yesterday. Felt a bit weird but you do get used to it quite quickly. What I hadn't expected is the amount of odd looks you get from non wearers. I guess I was guilty of that previously as well.

You also notice how few people are wearing them. I was in Sainsburys and would estimate less than 10% of shoppers had one on. Not a single member of staff was wearing one.


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## patricks148 (Jul 18, 2020)

no choice in Scotland, trouble for me is i wear glasses so everytime i do wear one i can't see where i'm going as they steam up


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## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			'Arrogant' is the term I want to use, they have an inflated sense of their own vulnerability and self importance.
		
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Fair enough. That's YOUR opinion! 
MINE allows them a small amount for their 'lack of experience' associated with their age. Neither are wrong! 
Neither are wrong!!


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## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			no choice in Scotland, trouble for me is i wear glasses so everytime i do wear one i can't see where i'm going as they steam up
		
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A couple of guys at work have 'ventilated' ones that, according to them, eliminate that problem. Presumably a bit more expensive and not sure whether that compromises their purpose (as perhaps steaming up does) but I believe that as long as they (any mask) restrict distance, then purpose has been achieved.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			no choice in Scotland, trouble for me is i wear glasses so everytime i do wear one i can't see where i'm going as they steam up
		
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My wife got told a work around and it helps

Pull the mask up slightly so it goes under your glasses .. held in place by the nose bit

Creates a seal that helps stop the steam


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			A couple of guys at work have 'ventilated' ones that, according to them, eliminate that problem. Presumably a bit more expensive and not sure whether that compromises their purpose (as perhaps steaming up does) but I believe that as long as they (any mask) restrict distance, then purpose has been achieved.
		
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£6 for 3 on eBay for one with a small side vent


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			There are of course other reasons why some people don't wear masks, I wonder if they will be exempt.

View attachment 31661


Awwww, the proud parents


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Just as well we don’t all believe that this it how it works...they wouldn’t jump into the sea well out of their depth if they couldn’t swim and expect to be so covered - but there you go.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			no choice in Scotland, trouble for me is i wear glasses so everytime i do wear one i can't see where i'm going as they steam up
		
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I’m sure there must be anti-misting spray we can apply to the lenses.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2020)

Been watching the platform's out corner of My eyes today 

I'd say I haven't seen one person NOT wearing a mask


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just as well we don’t all believe that this it how it works...they wouldn’t jump into the sea well out of their depth if they couldn’t swim and expect to be so covered - but there you go.
		
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Indeed.... Trust in Allah but tether your camel.


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## drdel (Jul 18, 2020)

Avoiding glasses misting.. 
Washing in soapy water. 
Rinsing thoroughly with warm water. 
Dry with clean lint free cloth.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			Avoiding glasses misting.. 
Washing in soapy water. 
Rinsing thoroughly with warm water. 
Dry with clean lint free cloth.
		
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This was mentioned yesterday on TV. It's something in the washing up liquid that does it 👍


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## patricks148 (Jul 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife got told a work around and it helps

Pull the mask up slightly so it goes under your glasses .. held in place by the nose bit

Creates a seal that helps stop the steam
		
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tried it today, does work, but i must have long eyelashes as they kept brushing the mask, i just can't win


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 18, 2020)

HID did the weekly shop for the in-laws this morning and was amazed how many were in masks. Definitely a case of the exception and definitely standing out if you didn't wear one so people have clearly got their stock and are simply getting on with it. A bit like wen lockdown came in, it's simply a situation we need to adjust to and if the R number gets pushed as far down as possible surely it'll help all areas of the economy to get up and running again


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 19, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			no choice in Scotland, trouble for me is i wear glasses so everytime i do wear one i can't see where i'm going as they steam up
		
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That’s because your mask is ineffective. Stubble? No seal, beard? no seal. You should be clean shaven, if not an air fed mask should be used. 
Masks should be fitted to you, there’s no one size fits all. Your supposed to try different masks on while doing a step exercise and a monitor to find the right one if I remember. Been along time since I did it. 
Your expelled air just leaks out the side and top. 

That’s the truth, making them pretty pointless and should maintain 2m distance if you so choose.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			That’s because your mask is ineffective. Stubble? No seal, beard? no seal. You should be clean shaven, if not an air fed mask should be used.
Masks should be fitted to you, there’s no one size fits all. Your supposed to try different masks on while doing a step exercise and a monitor to find the right one if I remember. Been along time since I did it.
Your expelled air just leaks out the side and top.

That’s the truth, making them pretty pointless and should maintain 2m distance if you so choose.
		
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Surely even an I'll fitting mask will reduce the distance droplets are projected.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely even an I'll fitting mask will reduce the distance droplets are projected.
		
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I agree with you. At the end of the day the request for people to wear masks is not to have a 100% secure covering, it's about reducing the odds. It could be argued it is mainly a psychological move to get people out again but I can live with that. If they have to be 100% then they would not be suggesting face covering.

The figure I remember is that it will reduce the chances of passing on the virus if you are infected by 10%. That's a pretty low number, hence why we didn't go to masks straight away, but I guess we are now at the point where every little helps.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I agree with you. At the end of the day the request for people to wear masks is not to have a 100% secure covering, it's about reducing the odds. It could be argued it is mainly a psychological move to get people out again but I can live with that.

The figure I remember is that it will reduce the chances of passing on the virus if you are infected by 10%. That's a pretty low number, hence why we didn't go to masks straight away, but I guess we are now at the point where every little helps.
		
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Plus a mask subconsciously helps reduce you touching your face


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Plus a mask subconsciously helps reduce you touching your face
		
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Ironically I remember the science bods early on saying they were against coverings because people were more likely to fiddle around with them so touching their faces more. I do find I consciously keep my hands away from my face when mine is on so hopefully you are right.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 19, 2020)

I imagine it stops some if not all from propelling forward. But breath certainly expels out of the mask from the sides and upwards. How much of that breath contains tiny floating microns of virus I do not know. 
I remember wearing one with aluminium powder many moons ago and having to pick black bogies out my nose before face fitting was introduced. In the end I just held my breath when I needed to use it.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I imagine it stops some if not all from propelling forward. But breath certainly expels out of the mask from the sides and upwards. How much of that breath contains tiny floating microns of virus I do not know. 
I remember wearing one with aluminium powder many moons ago and having to pick black bogies out my nose before face fitting was introduced. In the end I just held my breath when I needed to use it.
		
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That's the point though. The masks protect others not you.. so if you have covid (unknown to you) breathing it back in isn't going to do much harm but stopping it spreading to someone else will save life's


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's the point though. The masks protect others not you.. so if you have covid (unknown to you) breathing it back in isn't going to do much harm but stopping it spreading to someone else will save life's
		
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 I know about that advice. 

I used my experience as an example of how Ill fitted masks allow large particles in.  
So if large visible particles get in, None visible microns are escaping out so when walking behind someone you just breathe their air anyway. 

Believe what makes you feel better, but personally it’s purely a placebo from some political lobbying to get people outside spending, (although it would keep me from the high street shops)  especially now in a downward trend of infections and after we’ve reopened pubs and restaurants and soon to be bowling alleys and casinos. 

I will admit I’ve got a predisposition with rules, especially ones that I don’t see a benefit.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I know about that advice. 

I used my experience as an example of how Ill fitted masks allow large particles in.  
So if large visible particles get in, None visible microns are escaping out so when walking behind someone you just breathe their air anyway. 

Believe what makes you feel better, but personally it’s purely a placebo from some political lobbying to get people outside spending, (although it would keep me from the high street shops)  especially now in a downward trend of infections and after we’ve reopened pubs and restaurants and soon to be bowling alleys and casinos. 

I will admit I’ve got a predisposition with rules, especially ones that I don’t see a benefit.
		
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If everyone wears a mask the big particles Wont get out ....

It allows us to reduce social distancing slightly to get the economy back on track so that's fine with me.

Can you imagine people sticking to the queues outside Tesco in the depths of winter?


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If everyone wears a mask the big particles Wont get out ....

It allows us to reduce social distancing slightly to get the economy back on track so that's fine with me.

Can you imagine people sticking to the queues outside Tesco in the depths of winter?
		
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The virus will still be here in winter, but there’s been hints that social distance restrictions will be lifted in time for Christmas Shopping. Ironically we’ll probably not be mandated to wear masks either.


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## GB72 (Jul 19, 2020)

Love the irony on a golf forum that people can argue the need to wear long socks, dress codes in clubhouses etc (because it is the rules) but not the need to wear a face covering during a global pandemic because they cannot see the benefit, but it is the rules. (not aimed at anyone in particular just speaking generally)


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 19, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Love the irony on a golf forum that people can argue the need to wear long socks, dress codes in clubhouses etc (because it is the rules) but not the need to wear a face c covering during a global pandemic because they cannot see the benefit, but it is the rules. (not aimed at anyone in particular just speaking generally)
		
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I've seen a study that said that there is a strong correlation between those that think they do not need not wear a mask and very selfish right wing man babies who think Toby Young talks sense and do not care about anything unless they personally benefit. Think it was published in The Lancet. Or Viz.


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## Kaz (Jul 19, 2020)

Cases up the last two days. Tests up as well, apparently, so hoping that accounts for it but a bit worrying.


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## Kellfire (Jul 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've seen a study that said that there is a strong correlation between those that think they do not need not wear a mask and very selfish right wing man babies who think Toby Young talks sense and do not care about anything unless they personally benefit. Think it was published in The Lancet. Or Viz.
		
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The same people who will shout at you for telling them to wear a mask will also shout at you for not wearing a poppy.


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2020)

Track & Trace in Scotland is going to be easy as it appears that one of the call centres up there is under investigation for suspect out break of Covid


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've seen a study that said that there is a strong correlation between those that think they do not need not wear a mask and very selfish right wing man babies who think Toby Young talks sense and do not care about anything unless they personally benefit. Think it was published in The Lancet. Or Viz.
		
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 and it worked, got to love Viz


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 19, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The same people who will shout at you for telling them to wear a mask will also shout at you for not wearing a poppy.
		
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Still not as bad as those who lie to their work colleague to get them to remove their poppy!


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2020)

Is it November already


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've seen a study that said that there is a strong correlation between those that think they do not need not wear a mask and very selfish right wing man babies who think Toby Young talks sense and do not care about anything unless they personally benefit. Think it was published in The Lancet. Or Viz.
		
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There's a study that suggests those who refuse to wear face masks have lower cognitive ability. It's been published in The Sun which is possibly because only those with lower cognitive ability read it.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12116244/people-refuse-wear-face-mask-lower-cognitive-ability/


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 19, 2020)

Seen so many people wearing a mask incorrectly with the nostrils uncovered so basically offering no protection to the virus entering the body via the nasal passage. Yes it is uncomfy and yes it is a pain but it is something that will be here for a while so if you have to wear one surely you'd ensure it was on properly


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Seen so many people wearing a mask incorrectly with the nostrils uncovered so basically offering no protection to the virus entering the body via the nasal passage. Yes it is uncomfy and yes it is a pain but it is something that will be here for a while so if you have to wear one surely you'd ensure it was on properly
		
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Like any protective gear, if you dont know what you doing it's more of a danger than nothing. How many people will immediately wash their hands when they remove the mask.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There's a study that suggests those who refuse to wear face masks have lower cognitive ability. It's been published in The Sun which is possibly because only those with lower cognitive ability read it.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12116244/people-refuse-wear-face-mask-lower-cognitive-ability/

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That's a damning inditement 😄


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Like any protective gear, if you dont know what you doing it's more of a danger than nothing. How many people will immediately wash their hands when they remove the mask.
		
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I agree 100% but there has been so much publicity across the press and TV media and social media on how to wear the masks there really isn't any excuse. I would suggest that most people aren't washing their hands regularly at all let alone after touching the mask. That message we had all the time at the start of the outbreak has gone by the wayside but definitely needs reinforcing


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree 100% but there has been so much publicity across the press and TV media and social media on how to wear the masks there really isn't any excuse. I would suggest that most people aren't washing their hands regularly at all let alone after touching the mask. That message we had all the time at the start of the outbreak has gone by the wayside but definitely needs reinforcing
		
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To be honest I have not seen a single public information film on TV telling me how to wear a mask properly - and then what to do when I take it off (disinfect hands asap).  And I am not thinking of some minister on the news or in a briefing telling me I should wear one in scenario X but don't need to in scenario Y.  Should I not be seeing these (getting deluged by them) on TV, on YouTube, in the newspapers, and all over social media?  Maybe they are there and I've missed them.   And I am not aware that I received something through the mail from the government explaining?


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## DRW (Jul 20, 2020)

All this for just looking to flatten the curve


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## Wolf (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			To be honest I have not seen a single public information film on TV telling me how to wear a mask properly.  And I am not thinking of some minister on the news or in a briefing telling me I should wear one in scenario X but don't need to in scenario Y.  But how to wear and mask - and then what to do when I take it off (disinfect hands asap) Should I not be seeing these on TV, on YouTube, in the newspapers, and all over social media?  Maybe they are there and I've missed them.   And I am not aware that I receiv.ed something through the mail from the government explaining?
		
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Should you be seeing them, or should you simply be reading the instructions on the packet it came in.

The amount of money it would cost to make a public film would be a waste of money and resources. Plus it wouldn't stop morons wearing them wrongly.


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## bobmac (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			To be honest I have not seen a single public information film on TV telling me how to wear a mask properly
		
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Do you really need to be taught/shown how to wear a mask?
Haven't you seen any pictures of nurses wearing masks in the last 4 months?
Let me help


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 20, 2020)

I’ve worn a mask when going to the shop since lockdown began, I’ve washed the shopping before putting it away, I religiously wash my hands, but until this weekend had not heard either on here or anywhere else about making sure you wash your hands after removing the mask, maybe people will do it subconsciously, but many may not.

How many people won’t carry gel etc in their car or in a bag etc so won’t be cleaning their hands when they get back in in the vehicle and take off the mask when travelling from place to place.


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## bobmac (Jul 20, 2020)

I was under the impression that the mask was worn to prevent you spreading anything into the air around you, not to stop you breathing in anyone elses breath.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I was under the impression that the mask was worn to prevent you spreading anything into the air around you, not to stop you breathing in anyone elses breath.
		
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Agreed, but you could be passing it on or it picking up via the hands.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you really need to be taught/shown how to wear a mask?
Haven't you seen any pictures of nurses wearing masks in the last 4 months?
Let me help

View attachment 31688

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I have also seen plenty people wearing masks incorrectly on TV, some even dropping them down to talk to shop staff.
Perhaps a simple public film would help but there again if they are that stoopid perhaps not.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 20, 2020)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Should you be seeing them, or should you simply be reading the instructions on the packet it came in.

The amount of money it would cost to make a public film would be a waste of money and resources. Plus it wouldn't stop morons wearing them wrongly.
		
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So why did we have PI films for such as the Green Cross Code back in the day?   If it is important as we are being told and understand it to be, then of course we can have PI films on how to wear a facemask and what do do subsequently - after all the government managed to find money in the lead up to end Jan telling us and business about something else about to happen and what we should do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you really need to be taught/shown how to wear a mask?
Haven't you seen any pictures of nurses wearing masks in the last 4 months?
Let me help

View attachment 31688

Click to expand...

Why are you arguing *against *something that quite obviously could be of use in containing the spread of the virus - that would hammer home the message.


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## Slab (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*So why did we have PI films for such as the Green Cross Code back in the day?*   If it is important as we are being told and understand it to be, then of course we can have PI films on how to wear a facemask and what do do subsequently - after all the government managed to find money in the lead up to end Jan telling us and business about something else about to happen and what we should do.
		
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But wasn't the Green Cross Code campaign aimed at the under 10's ? (Do kids that age even have to wear masks)


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## drdel (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So why did we have PI films for such as the* Green Cross Code *back in the day?   If it is important as we are being told and understand it to be, then of course we can have PI films on how to wear a facemask and what do do subsequently - after all the government managed to find money in the lead up to end Jan telling us and business about something else about to happen and what we should do.
		
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This was mainly targeted at the young because of the rise in car ownership and traffic in towns.

Wearing a mask/face covering is surely common sense because the names/words themselves are pretty descriptive!


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## bobmac (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why are you arguing *against *something that quite obviously could be of use in containing the spread of the virus - that would hammer home the message.
		
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I am not ''arguing against something that quite obviously could be of use in containing the spread of the virus'', and you know it, I was questioning why you feel the government should make a film teaching us how to wear a flippin mask.
On the contrary, I always wear a mask on the rare occasions I leave the house to buy food.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I am not ''arguing against something that quite obviously could be of use in containing the spread of the virus'', and you know it, I was questioning why you feel the government should make a film teaching us how to wear a flippin mask.
On the contrary, I always wear a mask on the rare occasions I leave the house to buy food.
		
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Because it appears that many people 1) do not know how to wear a mask properly and _why _it must be worn so 2) what to do once they strop wearing the mask, and 3) as many seem reluctant to wear a mask, or still don't understand why they should... it seems sensible to hammer home exactly when we *must; *when we *should*; and when we are not required to do so.


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## ger147 (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because it appears that many people 1) do not know how to wear a mask properly and _why _it must be worn so 2) what to do once they strop wearing the mask, and 3) as many seem reluctant to wear a mask, or still don't understand why they should... it seems sensible to hammer home exactly when we *must; *when we *should*; and when we are not required to do so.
		
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How are we gonna teach them to watch the TV...


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## Wolf (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So why did we have PI films for such as the Green Cross Code back in the day?   If it is important as we are being told and understand it to be, then of course we can have PI films on how to wear a facemask and what do do subsequently - after all the government managed to find money in the lead up to end Jan telling us and business about something else about to happen and what we should do.
		
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To teach under 10s how to cross a road safely in a decade where, social media, newspapers and Google didn't exist. 

We are now in the 2020s, any such PI video would be an absolute waste of money when there are already 1000s + free information articles about on the subject matter already. You're quick to say government should and must do these things but they're already out there you just want spoon feeding where to find them or merely want another cause to moan about something that's already adequately placed for all to see.


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## drdel (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because it appears that many people 1) do not know how to wear a mask properly and _why _it must be worn so 2) what to do once they strop wearing the mask, and 3) as many seem reluctant to wear a mask, or still don't understand why they should... it seems sensible to hammer home exactly when we *must; *when we *should*; and when we are not required to do so.
		
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When I read these recent posts on the need to be shown how to wear mask etc I thought it was a wind-up - I'm rather aghast and dumbfounded that I was mistaken.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 20, 2020)

Doesn't seem that long ago though we were being instructed, by seemingly everybody and his mate, on how to wash our hands in the correct manner... And, my lad advises, when he or any of his team attend site H&S briefings/courses correct manner/use of masks is now included...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Doesn't seem that long ago though we were being instructed, by seemingly everybody and his mate, on how to wash our hands in the correct manner... And, my lad advises, when he or any of his team attend site H&S briefings/courses correct manner/use of masks is now included...
		
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By our PM amongst others - did he think we were children? And indeed as you lad finds indeed it should be,  but somehow the public doesn't need continual reminding and the message hammered home - even better if it is pushed to them by other-than-politicians.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2020)

drdel said:



			When I read these recent posts on the need to be shown how to wear mask etc I thought it was a wind-up - I'm rather aghast and dumbfounded that I was mistaken.
		
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If your understanding of the issue is that it is droplets in your breath carried out by speaking, singing; shouting; coughing etc that carry the virus - then you might not think you have to cover your nose - and even if you did realise that you had to cover your nose you might think it less important to do so as covering your nose makes breathing through you nose a little more difficult and we tend not think of ourselves as breathing out droplets through our nose.

Look just get a few celebs explaining, demonstrating and reminding us of the basics - we are used to getting basics explained - after all we all have to watch the exit doors and life-jackets video every time we go on a plane.


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## Foxholer (Jul 20, 2020)

drdel said:



			When I read these recent posts on the need to be shown how to wear mask etc I thought it was a wind-up - I'm rather aghast and dumbfounded that I was mistaken.
		
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Unfortunately, some idiots simply get it wrong! 
Here's a classic example!
https://www.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/pjimage-1-1-5.jpg


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## patricks148 (Jul 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 31690

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i can just imagine Vic and Bob doing the advert


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## bobmac (Jul 20, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, some idiots simply get it wrong!
Here's a classic example!
https://www.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/pjimage-1-1-5.jpg

Click to expand...

Not photoshopped at all


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## drdel (Jul 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If your understanding of the issue is that it is droplets in your breath carried out by speaking, singing; shouting; coughing etc that carry the virus - then you might not think you have to cover your nose - and even if you did realise that you had to cover your nose you might think it less important to do so as covering your nose makes breathing through you nose a little more difficult and we tend not think of ourselves as breathing out droplets through our nose.

Look just get a few celebs explaining, demonstrating and reminding us of the basics - we are used to getting basics explained - after all we all have to watch the exit doors and life-jackets video every time we go on a plane.
		
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You are creating a debate I was not entering. Note that at no stage was I talking about the efficacy of face covering for either the wearer or the public  with whom they interact i


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## AmandaJR (Jul 20, 2020)




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## AmandaJR (Jul 20, 2020)




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## AmandaJR (Jul 20, 2020)

Tricky stuff but hopefully the above helps


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## Foxholer (Jul 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Not photoshopped at all

View attachment 31692

Click to expand...

That's a completely different (and hardly believable) image to the one I posted!
I seem to remember it was even on BBC's site - which, understandably, goes to pretty extraordinary lengths to verify authenticity.
But if you are determined to only accept things that reflect your views....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 20, 2020)

I do remember Trumps saying he dislikes 'wearing a mask that makes him look like the Lone Ranger' .

For the youngsters, the Lone Ranger mask was an eye mask like the one Trumps is wearing.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jul 21, 2020)

By now you're all aware that we yanks are not welcome to travel anywhere in the civilized world.

After doing less than nothing on a national level to help mitigate this bio-disaster, Troglodyte Trump is now threatening all local school districts who are wary of opening schools for the coming fall semester as though everything were normal.

Last week, at the cluster of  mailboxes, I overheard two of my mentally deficient neighbors bemoaning how poor Trump gets blamed for everything.  
We're all elderly, but I could have sent these two to their just deserts in hell, both at once, in about eight seconds MAX.
And God be my witness, I really, really wanted to.
Instead, I said and did nothing.
My wife and I have to live in this community.

But I've lived to an age where I'm seeing and hearing things that I never ever needed to see or hear.
And short of spending my last days in prison, what the hell can I do about it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 21, 2020)

You really have to scratch your head in wonder about many of the major world political leaders at this moment in History.
Then to make matters worse you have to wonder about the people who voted to put them in power.
It is a scary time.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You really have to scratch your head in wonder about many of the major world political leaders at this moment in History.
Then to make matters worse you have to wonder about the people who voted to put them in power.
It is a scary time.
		
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What worries me as the we (as for now a united kingdom) are looking to deal with the biggest moron in the free world.

He has handled his country the worst arguably out of everyone yet we look to do anything to align with what they want


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## MegaSteve (Jul 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			What worries me as the we (as for now a united kingdom) are looking to deal with the biggest moron in the free world.

He has handled his country the worst arguably out of everyone yet we look to do anything to align with what they want
		
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We've been 'dealing' with the biggest load of chancers/freeloaders for 40+ years to the detriment of many...
With the absolute likelihood of there being no change in the relationship...
Yet, there are still some that remain unconvinced we are doing the right thing of kicking them into touch...

In the fullness of time the Donald will be gone and relations with our good friends from across the pond will resume to something way more responsible/reasonable...


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## DRW (Jul 22, 2020)

Do country lockdowns really work, another interesting write up on it :-

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext

This will continue into the future and adjust accordingly.


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## Foxholer (Jul 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			By now you're all aware that we yanks are not welcome to travel anywhere in the civilized world.
...
		
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I thought that the wearing of outlandishly gaudy clothes by US tourists was a reflection of the 'requirement' to warn locals of your presence! So actually being 'not welcome' is only a small step further!
And it doesn't just include 'the civilised' world either! New York State is not welcoming folk from several other states!
Lifting lockdown certainly requires a delicate balance between 'freedoms' - to restart the economy - and prevention of 2nd spikes that would ruin all the sacrifice that lockdown has entailed. IMO, Trump is so singularly focused on re-election that he has ignored the negative consequences - or will write them off as caused by State Governors and/or Democrats/protesters. Or/And, he may actually be planning use the sensible (imo) moves that (mainly) Democrat Governors have taken as a 'This is not freedom' message in the election - in the same way he calls it 'The China Virus'!

Whatever happens, I fear for what may happen if he gets re-elected!


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## DRW (Jul 22, 2020)

200 000 people would need to wear facemasks to prevent one new infection per week in the current epidemiological situation.
		
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https://www.fhi.no/globalassets/dokumenterfiler/rapporter/2020/should-individuals-in-the-community-without-respiratory-symptoms-wear-facemasks-to-reduce-the-spread-of-covid-19-report-2020.pdf

First kind of summary I have seen, so if 66 million wear masks, then 330 infections less in a week, based on those figures.


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.fhi.no/globalassets/dokumenterfiler/rapporter/2020/should-individuals-in-the-community-without-respiratory-symptoms-wear-facemasks-to-reduce-the-spread-of-covid-19-report-2020.pdf

First kind of summary I have seen, so if 66 million wear masks, then 330 infections less in a week, based on those figures.
		
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This is a statistic similar to one used in medicine called the number needed to treat (NNT). It is overwhelmingly driven by the background prevalence of the condition, so if few people have the infection, wearing a mask will not reduce the chance of them spreading it, obviously. But this sort of cheery stat is highly sensitive to that prevalence. A change in the rate of infection in the community changes this number quite significantly and fast, and usually before we know that rate has changed added to which the rising R number further multiplies it.

Wear your masks, please.


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## GB72 (Jul 22, 2020)

I am all for wearing masks and not necessarily for a scientific reason. We all want things back to normal and we all want the economy to bounce back. many people, me included, feel more comfortable in shops etc if people are wearing masks. If people feel more comfortable, they are more likely to go out, more likely to spend money and so more likely that the economy will get back on track quicker. For that reason, if no other, I am more than happy to go through the minor inconvenience of putting a mask on. 

Even if you do not see the scientific need, see the psychological one and do it to help the economy.


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## DRW (Jul 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This is a statistic similar to one used in medicine called the number needed to treat (NNT). It is overwhelmingly driven by the background prevalence of the condition, so if few people have the infection, wearing a mask will not reduce the chance of them spreading it, obviously. But this sort of cheery stat is highly sensitive to that prevalence. A change in the rate of infection in the community changes this number quite significantly and fast, and usually before we know that rate has changed added to which the rising R number further multiplies it.

Wear your masks, please.
		
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The report basically says your first sentence.

What did interest me, was that Norway had 52 recorded infections in the last week for a population of about 5.5m. Based on that if all the population wore masks then the infections could have been half, hmmm (not knowing if they currently are wearing them or not, pass and not overly relevant).

For me, the wearing of the mask doesn't make me feel safer and wont affect if I go into indoor spaces or not. In fact I am much more likely to touch my face wearing one and personally think people are likely to reuse masks, take off, then put back on whilst out and about, which would defeat some of the object of it all. Jury is far from out on these kind of masks and the case is far from proven to me. That ignores the people who have been killed for trying to enforce mask wearing or trouble erupts due to trying to enforce them. Life sadly is never simple etc. But don't get me wrong, I comply as personally do not have strong feeling over masks or not tbh. I just like researching and reading such riveting stuff.

I would be much more interested if we had to wear 'proper' masks but clearly the supply is not there atm, it would make so much more sense if the mask protected the wearer and other people we come into contact with fully......


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2020)

The point is that the number has little to do with the inherent effectiveness of the mask, but all to do with the risk in the population. The inherent effectiveness of the mask won't change much, but the prevalence of the condition very probably will.

NNTs often generate bigger numbers than people expect, especially for preventative medicines, for much the same reason. 

The mask probably doesn't make YOU much safer, but may make others safer if you happen to be an asymptomatic carrier. It may or may not be a coincidence that high mask usage is seen in places like Vietnam and S. Korea which have very low death rates and have controlled the infection.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 22, 2020)

I’ll be interested to see the trend once they are introduced. I’d expect to see a sharp downward trend in new infections to see if masks was effective within a month. 

I don’t think we will see it though. Time will tell. 

Luckily, there’s no queue on morrisons website like there used to be and plenty of slots available for online shopping.


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## Foxholer (Jul 22, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’ll be interested to see the trend once they are introduced. I’d expect to see a sharp downward trend in new infections to see if masks was effective within a month.

I don’t think we will see it though. Time will tell.

Luckily, there’s no queue on morrisons website like there used to be and plenty of slots available for online shopping.
		
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I don't believe there'll be a noticeable reduction either - but that's not because masks will not have an effect. On the contrary, I believe masks are a sensible _additional_ safety measure consequential to a significant 'loosening' of the rules! Without masks, I believe we'd see a significant rise in cases - as appears to be happening in US. With masks, the danger of transmission through closer allowed distance is mitigated.


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## road2ruin (Jul 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am all for wearing masks and not necessarily for a scientific reason. We all want things back to normal and we all want the economy to bounce back. many people, me included, feel more comfortable in shops etc if people are wearing masks. If people feel more comfortable, they are more likely to go out, more likely to spend money and so more likely that the economy will get back on track quicker. For that reason, if no other, I am more than happy to go through the minor inconvenience of putting a mask on.

Even if you do not see the scientific need, see the psychological one and do it to help the economy.
		
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For me this is absolutely spot on. I am in the camp (rightly or wrongly, only time will tell) that feels that masks have no particular benefit in terms of the spread of the virus. However, I will happily wear one (and have been from last week) if it means that it gets people out and about more and feeling more confident to rejoin society. We need people out spending money and if wearing a mask gets them out then it’s a small price to pay imo.


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## Slab (Jul 23, 2020)

The Gov is making a dogs turd of this face mask thing, where's @SwingsitlikeHogan when you need him 

All they had to say was;* Wear a face mask/covering when in public. *And if you really don't know if you are in 'public'... wear one anyway!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2020)

Nicola had the best safety comment.

'If you feel like things are getting back to normal, you are doing something wrong.'
Followed by 'Keep the Heid' of course.


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## bobmac (Jul 23, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			that feels that masks have no particular benefit in terms of the spread of the virus.
		
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I've done a google search on the effectiveness of the mask and the answers vary from ''can help'' to ''definitely help''.

_''But health experts say the evidence is clear that masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19 and that the more people wearing masks, the better.''_

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4...s-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent


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## DRW (Jul 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I've done a google search on the effectiveness of the mask and the answers vary from ''can help'' to ''definitely help''.

_''But health experts say the evidence is clear that masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19 and that the more people wearing masks, the better.''_

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4...s-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

Click to expand...

Its interesting isn't it, I will counter that with this proper one in a medical setup(tho) and test results :-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971//




			We have provided the* first clinical efficacy data of cloth masks*, which suggest HCWs should not use cloth masks as protection against respiratory infection. *Cloth masks *resulted in significantly higher rates of infection than medical masks, and* also performed worse than the control arm*.
		
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I appreciated it is a clinical setting and the viral hit is likely to be more regular and heavier, but certainly shines a different light on it, as it performed worse than the control arm. There other such studies..

However I think that masks do overall help and there is mounting anecdotal evidence in support of a mask(a couple such cases given in your link but plenty more around), in an indoor environment. 

Its crazy to think wearing a mask outside with any element of social distancing, actually helps to stop the spread to a measurable amount(+ve or -ve).


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2020)

DRW said:



			Its interesting isn't it, I will counter that with this proper one in a medical setup(tho) and test results :-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971//



I appreciated it is a clinical setting and the viral hit is likely to be more regular and heavier, but certainly shines a different light on it, as it performed worse than the control arm. There other such studies..

However I think that masks do overall help and there is mounting anecdotal evidence in support of a mask(a couple such cases given in your link but plenty more around), in an indoor environment.

Its crazy to think wearing a mask outside with any element of social distancing, actually helps to stop the spread to a measurable amount(+ve or -ve).
		
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You have drawn an incorrect/invalid conclusion! And that was because the study was 'unrelated' to the question being asked in this thread - 'which is 'Does wearing a (cloth) mask reduce transmission?'!

That study compared the efficacy of cloth masks vs medical masks! Unsurprisingly imo, medical masks were better! But, given that that study did not analyse/compare results for 'not wearing a mask', you cannot use it to compare (not) wearing a cloth mask!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2020)

Slab said:



			The Gov is making a dogs turd of this face mask thing, where's @SwingsitlikeHogan when you need him 

All they had to say was;* Wear a face mask/covering when in public. *And if you really don't know if you are in 'public'... wear one anyway!
		
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Oh what a tangled face mask web they weave when first they practice to confuse...

Apologies to Scott (and not Shakespeare...)


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## DRW (Jul 23, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You have drawn an incorrect/invalid conclusion! And that was because the study was 'unrelated' to the question being asked in this thread - 'which is 'Does wearing a (cloth) mask reduce transmission?'!

That study compared the efficacy of cloth masks vs medical masks! Unsurprisingly imo, medical masks were better! But, given that that study did not analyse/compare results for 'not wearing a mask', you cannot use it to compare (not) wearing a cloth mask!
		
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Your correct.

That will teach me to quickly scan read a link I saved but hadn't fully read

The control arm, consisted of :-




			In the control arm, 170/458 (37%) used medical masks, 38/458 (8%) used cloth masks, and 245/458 (53%) used a combination of both medical and cloth masks during the study period. The remaining 1% either reported using a N95 respirator (n=3) or did not use any masks (n=2).
		
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How about another link I saved :-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7365162/

I haven't read this one fully but going to tonight, but IIRC it links together lots of different studies on this matter.

If you ever want a wishy washy conclusion this has it:-




			Our systematic review found limited evidence that the use of masks might reduce the risk of viral respiratory infections. In the community setting, we found no evidence regarding the use of masks by the general public outside the home, but found a possible reduction on the risk of influenzalike illness when masks are used at least a few hours a day by a population in a specific area. In health care workers, the best available evidence shows no difference between N95 masks and surgical masks on the risk of confirmed influenza or other confirmed viral respiratory infections, although our results suggest a possible benefit from N95 masks for preventing influenzalike illness or other clinical respiratory infections. Surgical masks might be superior to cloth masks but data are limited to 1 trial.
		
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No wonder the message from politicians are conflicted , the evidence is also


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2020)

I'm going to start wearing cloth ones at work. If not for any actual/supposed protection. More to reinforce the need for social distancing and other 'best practices' - that is routinely flaunted by several team members (and, occasionally, be me!)!

I see no good reason not to! And, while I can understand the (mistaken imo) 'Freedom' attitude/argument of some US folk, it's not a valid one imo. Had it been 'sold' (that seems to be a description of how everything works in US) as something 'patriotic' (and had Trump actually used one from the start), then I believe the take-up would have been far greater!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am all for wearing masks and not necessarily for a scientific reason. We all want things back to normal and we all want the economy to bounce back. many people, me included, feel more comfortable in shops etc if people are wearing masks. If people feel more comfortable, they are more likely to go out, more likely to spend money and so more likely that the economy will get back on track quicker. For that reason, if no other, I am more than happy to go through the minor inconvenience of putting a mask on. 

Even if you do not see the scientific need, see the psychological one and do it to help the economy.
		
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The want to be scientists all claim it won't help etc etc but even 1% reduction of risk of the virus spreading is good.

Masks will get the economy going a bit...plus the cost of them £££ vat to the economy


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jul 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This is a statistic similar to one used in medicine called the number needed to treat (NNT). It is overwhelmingly driven by the background prevalence of the condition, so if few people have the infection, wearing a mask will not reduce the chance of them spreading it, obviously. But this sort of cheery stat is highly sensitive to that prevalence. A change in the rate of infection in the community changes this number quite significantly and fast, and usually before we know that rate has changed added to which the rising R number further multiplies it.

Wear your masks, please.
		
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Where does one get those cool Italian cufflinks?


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## Slab (Jul 24, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



*Where does one get those cool Italian cufflinks?*

Click to expand...

Of course it could just be the pic but i'm gonna say.... Ireland


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## Slab (Jul 24, 2020)

Can it really be true. The UK Gov makes an instruction to wear masks in retail outlets and (at least) three of the biggest retailers come out and say they won’t enforce it!

It’s not tough, you have one staff member at the door, they squirt a shot of hand sanitiser into your mitt and look to see if you have a mask on, zap you with a temp gun and punter enters and shops away (the trolleys have already been cleaned after previous use) Staff are also masked up and temp checked at start of shift and at lunch break and everyone knows that the basic steps have been taken with every shopper/staff member

The alternative is that any slob is permitted entry after picking their nose in the car with no temp check, no mask on & filthy germ ridden hands, free to paw at any product they like while coughing up a lung in among Mr Kiplings offerings (even if they don’t have covid they may well spread colds/flu which won’t help someone who gets covid like symptoms and has to needlessly isolate/get tested/miss work or worse still then catches covid at the same time) 

Not asking them to carry out the punishments/fines just don’t admit law breakers (every supermarket already has its own security to prevent entry) and if Costa doesn't then there's another job opportunity for SILH's son to help him out in the short term

Surely they shouldn’t be permitted to open? No compliance = no customers


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## pauljames87 (Jul 24, 2020)

Slab said:



			Can it really be true. The UK Gov makes an instruction to wear masks in retail outlets and (at least) three of the biggest retailers come out and say they won’t enforce it!

It’s not tough, you have one staff member at the door, they squirt a shot of hand sanitiser into your mitt and look to see if you have a mask on, zap you with a temp gun and punter enters and shops away (the trolleys have already been cleaned after previous use) Staff are also masked up and temp checked at start of shift and at lunch break and everyone knows that the basic steps have been taken with every shopper/staff member

The alternative is that any slob is permitted entry after picking their nose in the car with no temp check, no mask on & filthy germ ridden hands, free to paw at any product they like while coughing up a lung in among Mr Kiplings offerings (even if they don’t have covid they may well spread colds/flu which won’t help someone who gets covid like symptoms and has to needlessly isolate/get tested/miss work or worse still then catches covid at the same time)

Not asking them to carry out the punishments/fines just don’t admit law breakers (every supermarket already has its own security to prevent entry) and if Costa doesn't then there's another job opportunity for SILH's son to help him out in the short term

Surely they shouldn’t be permitted to open? No compliance = no customers
		
Click to expand...

not surprised they wont enforce it... I know LUL staff have been told not to enforce if they dont feel comfortable .. its because the british public have some discusting people who will abuse or even attack the person.. had a few members of staff spat at by people saying their covid positive ..

they are going to relay on the power of the public to pressure people. had a few fights reported to me on trains over customers having a go at another for not wearing a mask.. seems silly but a company would rather a fight between customers than a member of staff.

my mate however is a station supervisor and he wont let people in without a mask. he can handle himself so doesnt worry about things.. rather him than me


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## pauljames87 (Jul 24, 2020)

Even my limited french understands this..

Got to do our bit

Bonjour Rodney


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## Beezerk (Jul 24, 2020)

I've been working in Scotland all week, it's quite simple, going into the supermarket, pop your mask on and do your shopping.
It isn't hard.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I've been working in Scotland all week, it's quite simple, going into the supermarket, pop your mask on and do your shopping.
It isn't hard.
		
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Exactly. If you don't think it works just get a cheap reusable one and keep in your pocket. Just wear it so you don't look a complete tool


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I've been working in Scotland all week, it's quite simple, going into the supermarket, pop your mask on and do your shopping.
It isn't hard.
		
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Or..........don't put your mask on and get shouted at and ridiculed by your more sensible fellow citizens.
Plus if you insist............ you don't get served.
It is quite simple.


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## Beezerk (Jul 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or..........don't put your mask on and get shouted at and ridiculed by your more sensible fellow citizens.
Plus if you insist............ you don't get served.
It is quite simple.
		
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To be fair, I saw plenty of people without masks in the two supermarkets I visited. Everyone just got on with what they were doing and respected the fact those without masks had some sort of medical condition.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 25, 2020)

So Britain's must quarantine for 14 days on return from Spain

Read this nugget on the BBC 

"Lois Stothard, from South Yorkshire, told the BBC she had booked a holiday to Seville as a surprise for her boyfriend's 30th birthday - due to fly out on Sunday morning - but now feels that she cannot travel.

"I'm a keyworker - I'm a teacher - and my boyfriend has work commitments so we cannot quarantine for 14 days when we return," she said.

"We can't get any money back and to change the company want double what I've already paid in fees... I'm very disappointed and upset as we're packed and ready to go."

For one if your a teacher you can quarantine as it's the holidays now.

For two why on earth did you book a holiday right after lockdown .. just asking for trouble.

As if people actually think this thing is over .. travel was always a bad idea. It's how the thing blooming spreads


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## Beezerk (Jul 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So Britain's must quarantine for 14 days on return from Spain

Read this nugget on the BBC

"Lois Stothard, from South Yorkshire, told the BBC she had booked a holiday to Seville as a surprise for her boyfriend's 30th birthday - due to fly out on Sunday morning - but now feels that she cannot travel.

"I'm a keyworker - I'm a teacher - and my boyfriend has work commitments so we cannot quarantine for 14 days when we return," she said.

"We can't get any money back and to change the company want double what I've already paid in fees... I'm very disappointed and upset as we're packed and ready to go."

For one if your a teacher you can quarantine as it's the holidays now.

For two why on earth did you book a holiday right after lockdown .. just asking for trouble.

As if people actually think this thing is over .. travel was always a bad idea. It's how the thing blooming spreads
		
Click to expand...

Thick and oblivious to any sort of common sense. Part of the #mylifematters crew unfortunately.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 25, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Thick and oblivious to any sort of common sense. Part of the #mylifematters crew unfortunately.
		
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We had a trip to centre parks booked from Monday onwards ..

Had taken the week off..etc 

We just moved the holiday 12 months back. Not worth it

The wife could do with a holiday, the daughter would have loved it 

But not risking it for the sake of a years wait


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## Stuart_C (Jul 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So Britain's must quarantine for 14 days on return from Spain

Read this nugget on the BBC

"Lois Stothard, from South Yorkshire, told the BBC she had booked a holiday to Seville as a surprise for her boyfriend's 30th birthday - due to fly out on Sunday morning - but now feels that she cannot travel.

"I'm a keyworker - I'm a teacher - and my boyfriend has work commitments so we cannot quarantine for 14 days when we return," she said.

"We can't get any money back and to change the company want double what I've already paid in fees... I'm very disappointed and upset as we're packed and ready to go."

For one if your a teacher you can quarantine as it's the holidays now.

*For two why on earth did you book a holiday right after lockdown* .. just asking for trouble.

As if people actually think this thing is over .. travel was always a bad idea. It's how the thing blooming spreads
		
Click to expand...

Probably due to the government lifting travel restrictions from 10th july, no?

Some people  dont think about the consequences.  They trust and/or listen to those in charge who make the decisions, others don't.

We should've been in Portugal now but we'd already made the decision not to travel back in May even if the authorities said it was safe.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jul 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So Britain's must quarantine for 14 days on return from Spain

Read this nugget on the BBC

"Lois Stothard, from South Yorkshire, told the BBC she had booked a holiday to Seville as a surprise for her boyfriend's 30th birthday - due to fly out on Sunday morning - but now feels that she cannot travel.

"I'm a keyworker - I'm a teacher - and my boyfriend has work commitments so we cannot quarantine for 14 days when we return," she said.

"We can't get any money back and to change the company want double what I've already paid in fees... I'm very disappointed and upset as we're packed and ready to go."

For one if your a teacher you can quarantine as it's the holidays now.

For two why on earth did you book a holiday right after lockdown .. just asking for trouble.

As if people actually think this thing is over .. travel was always a bad idea. It's how the thing blooming spreads
		
Click to expand...

I'm probably missing something here but where did she say she'd book this trip post-corona? If she booked it before then they've just fallen into a no man's land where they can't get a refund but can't afford to travel.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So Britain's must quarantine for 14 days on return from Spain

Read this nugget on the BBC

"Lois Stothard, from South Yorkshire, told the BBC she had booked a holiday to Seville as a surprise for her boyfriend's 30th birthday - due to fly out on Sunday morning - but now feels that she cannot travel.

"I'm a keyworker - I'm a teacher - and my boyfriend has work commitments so we cannot quarantine for 14 days when we return," she said.

"We can't get any money back and to change the company want double what I've already paid in fees... I'm very disappointed and upset as we're packed and ready to go."

For one if your a teacher you can quarantine as it's the holidays now.

For two why on earth did you book a holiday right after lockdown .. just asking for trouble.

As if people actually think this thing is over .. travel was always a bad idea. It's how the thing blooming spreads
		
Click to expand...

Loads of key workers have been working stupid hours, often under increased risk of getting Covid, under a lot of pressure, making sure the rest of us can get some pasta or our bins are emptied or our kids can be at school.

The government lifted the restrictions, indeed encouraged people to start spending again.

Possibly booking a holiday somewhere where they are allowed to travel to isn't the daftest thing to do....


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Loads of key workers have been working stupid hours, often under increased risk of getting Covid, under a lot of pressure, making sure the rest of us can get some pasta or our bins are emptied or our kids can be at school. 

The government lifted the restrictions, indeed encouraged people to start spending again. 

Possibly booking a holiday isn't the daftest thing to do....
		
Click to expand...

Considering I am a key worker who has been working all those hours I do understand but you can't complain if the holiday then gets cancelled or you have to isolate when you come back.

Turns out one of ours flew to ibizi Saturday . They included the island in the list so he will be off 2 weeks when comes back. I only know because 2 weeks worth of overtime came out and I txt him to see if he was ok as was all him. He only just returned last month from having covid.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering I am a key worker who has been working all those hours I do understand *but you can't complain if the holiday then gets cancelled or you have to isolate when you come back.*

Turns out one of ours flew to ibizi Saturday . They included the island in the list so he will be off 2 weeks when comes back. I only know because 2 weeks worth of overtime came out and I txt him to see if he was ok as was all him. He only just returned last month from having covid.
		
Click to expand...

Year you can, I probably wouldn't be happy if I was in that situation, its just the amount of sympathy or understanding it deserves is variable.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Year you can, I probably wouldn't be happy if I was in that situation, its just the amount of sympathy or understanding it deserves is variable.
		
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Not enough to complain to the press tho?

Your mates , parents at a push a golf forum

But the BBC?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Probably due to the government lifting travel restrictions from 10th july, no?

*Some people  dont think about the consequences.  They trust and/or listen to those in charge who make the decisions, others don't.*

We should've been in Portugal now but we'd already made the decision not to travel back in May even if the authorities said it was safe.
		
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Yes but the decision is still up to the individual. If people are as you describe them in bold, then the responsibility is theirs. 
The government have always said if the Covid situation gets worse, they will act. You clearly think that there is a possibility that they might, so  no Portugal; so do many others. Those that behave as if it's gone away for good have only themselves to blame for not reasoning things out. They took a gamble............


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## Old Skier (Jul 26, 2020)

Devolved governments along with the government described as shambolic by Labour Party for its handling of the Spain restrictions.

Welsh assembly is led by Labour, brain and mouth not working together.


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Loads of key workers have been working stupid hours, often under increased risk of getting Covid, under a lot of pressure, making sure the rest of us can get some pasta or our bins are emptied or our kids can be at school.

The government lifted the restrictions, indeed encouraged people to start spending again.

*Possibly booking a holiday somewhere where they are allowed to travel to isn't the daftest thing to do*

Click to expand...

To be honest, anyone with half an ounce of common sense must have realised there was still a huge risk attached to foreign travel.

When the Spanish government opened their borders to allow holiday makers to travel, the world and his wife knew that they were taking a calculated risk in order to get the travel industry moving. We all knew the virus was still circulating, and the vast majority of people I know all said thanks, but no thanks. It’s too soon.

Governments the world over know there is a risk to easing their lockdown but know they have to balance that risk against the needs of their economies. The Spanish economy is reliant on the tourist Euro.

So even when the authorities here and abroad allowed travel to resume, most right minded people understood that by stepping on a plane they were still taking a huge risk.

As such, much as it pains me to say it, after everything we’ve been through I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who has now got themselves in a pickle.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			To be honest, anyone with half an ounce of common sense must have realised there was still a huge risk attached to foreign travel.
		
Click to expand...

...such as our Transport Minister?... 🙄


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## User62651 (Jul 26, 2020)

I think the main problem is the notice period, if they'd given 48 hours or announced before English/Welsh school holidays that would have saved a lot of hassle, allowed time to make other arrangements. Seems info was leaked and then govt reacted. Schapps caught up in it is the comedy irony bit.
Govt damned if they do, damned if they don't with this. Might save some lives, might not. All the collateral damage wrt missing 2 weeks work is the problem of the individual and their employers.
Seems only some parts of Spain getting spikes so why not just enforce quarantining for those returning from those areas only? 99% of those going to Spain from UK stay in one resort place.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...such as our Transport Minister?... 🙄
		
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He has accepted the gamble and the penalty for his decision.
You ,no doubt, will try very hard to make out it is the fault of the government's decision and not that of the holidaymakers.
This little dig being your first attempt.


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## drdel (Jul 26, 2020)

Looking to take a break so I subscribe to the Gov website who frequently email travel advice. The FCO has consistently warned that overseas travel may be subject to rapid changing conditions. They have highlighted the Spanish situation for weeks.

When travel insurers are restricting cover for virus related issues anyone with an ounces of common sense should realise the risk to their wallet if not their health.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes but the decision is still up to the individual. If people are as you describe them in bold, then the responsibility is theirs. 
The government have always said if the Covid situation gets worse, they will act. You clearly think that there is a possibility that they might, so  no Portugal; so do many others. Those that behave as if it's gone away for good have only themselves to blame for not reasoning things out. They took a gamble............
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts were, what if me and/or my wife gets it whilst we're away, who looks after my 13yrold daughter and  11yr old son? 

Flying is bad enough, without having to wear a mask for the duration of the flight. 

I totally understand people wanting to get away and have a break and I do have a little bit of sympathy for them.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Looking to take a break so I subscribe to the Gov website who frequently email travel advice. The FCO has consistently warned that overseas travel may be subject to rapid changing conditions. They have highlighted the Spanish situation for weeks.

When travel insurers are restricting cover for virus related issues anyone with an ounces of common sense should realise the risk to their wallet if not their health.
		
Click to expand...

If that's the  case why have the government allowed non essential flying? Surely they should be saying we strongly advise against non essential travelling.

It seems  they're backing the airline business rather than public health with this.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			If that's the  case why have the government allowed non essential flying? Surely they should be saying we strongly advise against non essential travelling.

It seems  they're backing the airline business rather than public health with this.
		
Click to expand...

To me that's exactly what they are doing 

We are desperately trying to push the economy back to "normal" rather than changing to a different way of life


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## drdel (Jul 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			If that's the  case why have the government allowed non essential flying? Surely they should be saying we strongly advise against non essential travelling.

It seems  they're backing the airline business rather than public health with this.
		
Click to expand...

Surely the Gov is giving information and based on the info from Spain they said casual travel was OK, but they also warned that because the situation is highly dynamic you should be aware that quick changes could disrupt your plans. This is exactly what happened.

The signs have been there.


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## Hobbit (Jul 26, 2020)

Damned for being slow in the original lockdown, and damned for acting too quickly now.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2020)

I think it is fairly clear that the overall tone on travel is 'Do you really think this is wise?'. The limitations on insurance coverage are also a warning sign. Govt messaging is, as we have now come to expect, a bit muddled, though. 

Much as I would love to go somewhere nice overseas on hols, I don't think it will happen this year.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Damned for being slow in the original lockdown, and damned for acting too quickly now.

Click to expand...

Both arise from the same place, a lack of willingness to accept responsibility for imposing unpopular restrictions. And making others responsible for defining the precise details and enforcing is part of the same.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Damned for being slow in the original lockdown, and damned for acting too quickly now.

Click to expand...

Is it that bad over the whole of Spain Bri or just in certain areas? Also, what measures have the Spanish Government brought in to effect in the last 48hrs?


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Surely the Gov is giving information and based on the info from Spain they said casual travel was OK, but they also warned that because the situation is highly dynamic you should be aware that quick changes could disrupt your plans. This is exactly what happened.

The signs have been there.
		
Click to expand...

I dont know are they??  I'll be honest I've not looked in depth at the foreign travel changes, only heard snippets on the news etc because right now I wont be going abroad. 

If what you're saying is correct, and I'm not saying it's not, why not leave the restrictions in place if the situation is so volatile? 

People cant be accused of being stupid,selfish etc if they're caught up in this situation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I dont know are they??  I'll be honest I've not looked in depth at the foreign travel changes, only heard snippets on the news etc because right now I wont be going abroad.

If what you're saying is correct, and I'm not saying it's not, why not leave the restrictions in place if the situation is so volatile?

People cant be accused of being stupid,selfish etc if they're caught up in this situation.
		
Click to expand...

Surely the Transport Minister would fully understand the difficulty the Government is in over this.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Damned for being slow in the original lockdown, and damned for acting too quickly now.

Click to expand...

Here we go....

I havent damned them, I've merely asked a question and made a suggestion.

I now realise why I've stayed away from these threads.


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## Hobbit (Jul 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it that bad over the whole of Spain Bri or just in certain areas? Also, what measures have the Spanish Government brought in to effect in the last 48hrs?

Click to expand...

It is rising in all areas, some more than others. Control is very much with the regional presidents now. A number of towns/cities are in lockdown Leicester style. Some towns have closed nightclubs, and some have even closed the bars again. Everywhere is masks once you're outside your front door. 

But to a large extent most of the increase is due to the level of testing now in place. First hint of a sniffle, TEST THE WHOLE FAMILY. Many of those tested are asymptomatic. And the increase in hospitalisations aren't really rising much, nor the deaths. Yes there's a ripple, and it has to be managed. Will it turn into a second spike? Time will tell.


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## Hobbit (Jul 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Here we go....

I havent damned them, I've merely asked a question and made a suggestion.

I now realise why I've stayed away from these threads.
		
Click to expand...

And I didn't quote you, nor even thought about your post. Stop being so precious.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			It is rising in all areas, some more than others. Control is very much with the regional presidents now. A number of towns/cities are in lockdown Leicester style. Some towns have closed nightclubs, and some have even closed the bars again. Everywhere is masks once you're outside your front door.

But to a large extent most of the increase is due to the level of testing now in place. First hint of a sniffle, TEST THE WHOLE FAMILY. Many of those tested are asymptomatic. And the increase in hospitalisations aren't really rising much, nor the deaths. Yes there's a ripple, and it has to be managed. Will it turn into a second spike? Time will tell.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers Bri,


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## Slab (Jul 26, 2020)

Anyone any idea how a 'home quarantine' works or how it differs from self isolation?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 26, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			To be honest, anyone with half an ounce of common sense must have realised there was still a huge risk attached to foreign travel.

When the Spanish government opened their borders to allow holiday makers to travel, the world and his wife knew that they were taking a calculated risk in order to get the travel industry moving. We all knew the virus was still circulating, and the vast majority of people I know all said thanks, but no thanks. It’s too soon.

Governments the world over know there is a risk to easing their lockdown but know they have to balance that risk against the needs of their economies. The Spanish economy is reliant on the tourist Euro.

So even when the authorities here and abroad allowed travel to resume, most right minded people understood that by stepping on a plane they were still taking a huge risk.

As such, much as it pains me to say it, after everything we’ve been through I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who has now got themselves in a pickle.
		
Click to expand...

How about someone thinking that foreign travel is a risk and not wanting to do it yourself but also feeling sympathy for people who have been working stupidly hard in lockdown and booked a foreign holiday as that was not against any guidance and are arguably being taken advantage of by the travel companies. You can do both.


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			How about someone thinking that foreign travel is a risk and not wanting to do it yourself but also feeling sympathy for people who have been working stupidly hard in lockdown and booked a foreign holiday as that was not against any guidance and are arguably being taken advantage of by the travel companies. You can do both. 

Click to expand...

I’m one of the key workers you referred to previously. I have been working horribly hard during lockdown without any option but to put myself in harms way daily. I had a Spanish holiday booked for my family. I knew what the guidance was. But I’m not naive.

I cancelled it.

😉


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 26, 2020)

I booked flights at the end of August to Bilbao in November 2019. That weekend in the golf calendar it was a Bogey Comp. which I do not like. This has now been changed to our only 36 hole over 2 days.

Also in November last year I paid upfront for 3 nights none refundable accommodation which was more than I usually pay. The company Meliá Group will not offer a refund despite using them for the last 20 years.

Really disappointed with them and written to CEO several times with response.

Any suggestions other than to find a different hotel group next time?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 26, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m one of the key workers you referred to previously. I have been working horribly hard during lockdown without any option but to put myself in harms way daily. I had a Spanish holiday booked for my family. I knew what the guidance was. But I’m not naive.

I cancelled it.

😉
		
Click to expand...

I thank you for what you've done.  And if you'd have tried to go to Spain but had been caught out with the latest guidance then I'd also feel a bit of sympathy for you. 

What I object to is the implied tone, which I do not think is actually deliberate most of the time, of that people are stupid for trying to get away so they deserve all they get.  Where as government advice has been at times very vague and travel companies have not covered themselves in glory when it comes to refunds.  So I think it is lot more nuanced than that.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 26, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			He has accepted the gamble and the penalty for his decision.
You ,no doubt, *will try very hard to make out it is the fault of the government's decision and not that of the holidaymakers.
This little dig being your first attempt.*

Click to expand...

Cool your boots, it was only a comment about the irony that the transport secretary has got caught up in all this travel nonsense.  Suggest you save your playing the poster/unquestioning support of the government no matter what they do, to when they are properly attacked as you don't want to waste valuable posts.


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## Billysboots (Jul 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I thank you for what you've done.  And if you'd have tried to go to Spain but had been caught out with the latest guidance then I'd also feel a bit of sympathy for you.

What I object to is the implied tone, which I do not think is actually deliberate most of the time, of that people are stupid for trying to get away so they deserve all they get.  Where as government advice has been at times very vague and travel companies have not covered themselves in glory when it comes to refunds.  So I think it is lot more nuanced than that.
		
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Mate, I’m going out on a limb here, perhaps, but I’m not implying anything. I’m being absolutely straight down the line when I say that anyone who chooses to travel overseas in the immediate aftermath of the first wave of a global pandemic, regardless of government guidelines, is absolutely stark raving bonkers.

Government guidelines are issued with the best of intentions. But in this scenario we almost have to regard them as akin to an MOT. When they say it’s safe to travel on July 13th, that’s precisely what  they mean. It doesn’t mean things won’t change and, to be fair to them, they’ve never lied about the possibility that would happen.

The longer this pandemic goes on, the more irked I become when I see so called adults moaning quite simply because they have failed to take some personal responsibility. It’s pathetic.

Way back in April, when I’d already got a family holiday to Spain booked, Mrs BB and me started having lengthy discussions about what was best for our family. She was of the view that if government guidelines allowed it, and the airline was flying, then we should go to Spain.

The 29 year cop and pragmatist in me took a rather different view. The Spanish had opened their borders not because they thought they were 100% safe, but to stop their economy failing. Mrs BB was thinking sunshine family holiday - I was thinking what happens when it all goes belly up and we’re stuck in Spain.

So I’m not really implying anything. I appreciate you trying to make excuses on my behalf but there’s really no need. I will say again - anyone who chose to grab a few days in the sun in the midst of an ongoing pandemic, despite everything they read in the papers and see on the TV, can have no grounds to complain when it goes pear shaped.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			He has accepted the gamble and the penalty for his decision.
You ,no doubt, will try very hard to make out it is the fault of the government's decision and not that of the holidaymakers.
This little dig being your first attempt.
		
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Confused... Not really blaming anyone.  It is what it is.  Those who have gone to Spain took a gamble - including Shapps.   Maybe they felt they had little choice in their own specific individual circumstances so I can’t ‘blame’ them.  Not sure the government had much option as they have been clear that lockdowns and restrictions etc could be imposed at any time...Justified or not they have stuck to their word on that.

The irony is that Shapps is our transport secretary and would have been fully aware of the strength of determination in the government to stick to its word over such lockdowns or quarantines...


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## Old Skier (Jul 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Confused... Not really blaming anyone.  It is what it is.  Those who have gone to Spain took a gamble - including Shapps.   Maybe they felt they had little choice in their own specific individual circumstances so I can’t ‘blame’ them.  Not sure the government had much option as they have been clear that lockdowns and restrictions etc could be imposed at any time...Justified or not they have stuck to their word on that.

The irony is that Shapps is our transport secretary and would have been fully aware of the strength of determination in the government to stick to its word over such lockdowns or quarantines...
		
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Parliament is shut for the holidays so along with the fact he’s spent most of the last 3 months doing interviews and working from home, self isolating when he gets home will have minimal effect I suggest.


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## drdel (Jul 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I dont know are they??  I'll be honest I've not looked in depth at the foreign travel changes, only heard snippets on the news etc because right now I wont be going abroad.

If what you're saying is correct, and I'm not saying it's not, why not leave the restrictions in place if the situation is so volatile?

People cant be accused of being stupid,selfish etc if they're caught up in this situation.
		
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They are the FCO, see their regular wdbsite updates on travel.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Parliament is shut for the holidays so along with the fact he’s spent most of the last 3 months doing interviews and working from home, self isolating when he gets home will have minimal effect I suggest.
		
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He did what he thought he could do - he knew the risks.  He had insider info  that the rest of us don’t have.  Others in much tougher circumstances may have made the same choice but for different reasons - I have sympathy for them...


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2020)

Slab said:



			Anyone any idea how a 'home quarantine' works or how it differs from self isolation?
		
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Same thing effectively imo! Apart from there maybe more than 1 person 'in quarantine', so 'self isolation' probably isn't totally accurate, where 'home quarantine' probably is!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Cool your boots, it was only a comment about the irony that the transport secretary has got caught up in all this travel nonsense.  Suggest you save your playing the poster/unquestioning support of the government no matter what they do, to when they are properly attacked as you don't want to waste valuable posts.
		
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Don't need your advice, thank you. I believe I know why SILH made the comment and so , I believe , do you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't need your advice, thank you. I believe I know why SILH made the comment and so , I believe , do you.
		
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I made the comment as I thought it rather ironic that he’d gone to Spain given he would know the detail of the governments strategy in respect of quarantine - after all he is Transport Secretary.  Was he stupid or bonkers as some have suggested? Or was he just knackered and needed a break away from the UK with his family - and recess is the only chance he has.


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## Old Skier (Jul 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I made the comment as I thought it rather ironic that he’d gone to Spain given he would know the detail of the governments strategy in respect of quarantine.  Was he stupid or bonkers as some have suggested? Or was he just knackered and needed a break away from the UK with his family - and recess is the only chance he has.
		
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Why was he bonkers/stupid, he knew he could function in his job even in isolation.  If you read his twitter feed, even now whilst on holiday he is holding vid confs with other  countries.  Perhaps his fairly normal and is able to cope with modern living and can adapt.  Many people are in the same boat and can operate quite adequately from home.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



*Why was he bonkers/stupid,* he knew he could function in his job even in isolation.  If you read his twitter feed, even now whilst on holiday he is holding vid confs with other  countries.  Perhaps his fairly normal and is able to cope with modern living and can adapt.  Many people are in the same boat and can operate quite adequately from home.
		
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Here's the thing,  I have not said that he is.  It seems that you have read what I have written expecting me to say he was.  In fact if you reread what I posted you can see that I did suggest that I am actually sympathetic of his need for a holiday in the circumstances - a need the same as the many who are now in Spain facing quarantine when they return. 

It is others who have said such individuals are stupid and/or bonkers.  Not me.  As @HK posted - I myself might choose to not go to Spain or anywhere abroad at the moment - however I cannot judge or criticise all of those who on balance _have _decided to go.  They have all made the decision given their need, finances and flexibility based upon the evidence and guidance they have been provided with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why was he bonkers/stupid, he knew he could function in his job even in isolation.  If you read his twitter feed, even now whilst on holiday he is holding vid confs with other  countries.  Perhaps his fairly normal and is able to cope with modern living and can adapt.  Many people are in the same boat and can operate quite adequately from home.
		
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Others, as silh said, stated people going on holiday abroad are bonkers/stupid and do we really expect our Government Ministers to go on holiday to a foreign country and carry out official Government business by vid etc with all the security implications that that involves?

Come on, I don’t agree with silh, but the simple fact is a Government Minister has made a decision to holiday abroad in the belief it would be fine and the situation changed once he’d gone.

Even tories deserve a holiday

We don’t want anyone being forced to stay away from the work place at this time if we can help it, regardless of how they cope, especially Government Ministers.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Others, as silh said, stated people going on holiday abroad are bonkers/stupid and do we really expect our Government Ministers to go on holiday to a foreign country and carry out official Government business by vid etc with all the security implications that that involves?

Come on, I don’t agree with silh, but the simple fact is a Government Minister has made a decision to holiday abroad in the belief it would be fine and the situation changed once he’d gone.

Even tories deserve a holiday

We don’t want anyone being forced to stay away from the work place at this time if we can help it, regardless of how they cope, especially Government Ministers.
		
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For me the average Joe prob shouldn't be going on holiday unless they can afford the hit if they have to isolate on return 

Gov ministers? They can afford it or work from home 

One of my bosses lives in Ireland, Republic, he lives at his mum's in their granny annex when in UK and travels back to Ireland .. he has to isolate there .. ATM he swaps to get 2 weeks in each country 

However he can fly to Belfast, cross the boarder to ROI and not have to isolate ..


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## Old Skier (Jul 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Here's the thing,  I have not said that he is.  .
		
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I didn't say you did.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I didn't say you did.
		
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You replied to my post with the opening statement 'Why was he bonkers/stupid...'   Apologies for misunderstanding - but I took that as being directed to me...

And my original response was the double irony of our Transport Secretary getting caught up in the need to quarantine...not just a government minister but the minister for transport...

But - as I have said - he is probably knackered and needs a holiday - and a parliamentary recess is the only time he can have that holiday.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2020)

A sign of things to come? - The new normal on the job hunt front?  Grim 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53528653


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A sign of things to come? - The new normal on the job hunt front?  Grim 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53528653

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And who will you blame for that. Boris?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And who will you blame for that. Boris?
		
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Naturally. He should have seen all these businesses having to make redundancies as a result of Covid coming. It is tough and you have to feel for those that have lost their job and it'll be tough for some but this is where we are.


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## User62651 (Jul 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Naturally. He should have seen all these businesses having to make redundancies as a result of Covid coming. It is tough and you have to feel for those that have lost their job and it'll be tough for some but this is where we are.
		
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SILH's post was apolitical, just a link to an economic situation. There was no blame attached. Yet the usual folk are trolling it. Tedious.

Regarding BJ he seems determined to impose a no deal brexit on us by year end on top of the covid catastrophe so that will likely mean a lot more redundancies and hardship than need be. Does BJ care? Probably not. His legacy is all that matters to him. For those retired or working in secure NHS jobs seems they care neither. I'm alright Jack / Just where we are.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			SILH's post was apolitical, just a link to an economic situation. There was no blame attached. Yet the usual folk are trolling it. Tedious.

Regarding BJ he seems determined to impose a no deal brexit on us by year end on top of the covid catastrophe so that will likely mean a lot more redundancies and hardship than need be. Does BJ care? Probably not. His legacy is all that matters to him. For those retired or working in secure NHS jobs seems they care neither. I'm alright Jack / Just where we are.

Click to expand...

As it happens HID has come tonight with the news that her job is likely to be at risk as the independent school she works at is restructuring because of the financial hit of a lack of fees and parents not wanting to send their kids there come September so while my job may be more secure than some doesn't mean we don't face our own period of uncertainty especially if her role does go


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			...
Regarding BJ he seems determined to impose a no deal brexit on us by year end...
		
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While I voted Remain, I've accepted the democratic Brexit result!
And that's what BJ was _emphatically_ elected to implement! The arrival of a Pandemic is actually an irrelevance to THAT goal!
Whether everything is 'settled' and 'in place' by 31/12 is debatable - for various reasons - but, again, that's irrelevant to the process. It's only a straw being clutched at by die-hard Remainers!


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As it happens HID has come tonight with the news that her job is likely to be at risk as the independent school she works at is restructuring because of the financial hit of a lack of fees and parents not wanting to send their kids there come September so while my job may be more secure than some doesn't mean we don't face our own period of uncertainty especially if her role does go
		
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Sorry to hear that. Hope it works out Ok!
Unless already 'marginal', I'd have thought most Independent School roles were relatively secure. That's certainly the case for the two I know a little about.


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## User62651 (Jul 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			While I voted Remain, I've accepted the democratic Brexit result!
And that's what BJ was _emphatically_ elected to implement! The arrival of a Pandemic is actually an irrelevance to THAT goal!
Whether everything is 'settled' and 'in place' by 31/12 is debatable - for various reasons - but, again, that's irrelevant to the process. It's only a straw being clutched at by die-hard Remainers!
		
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Twaddle
I think you missed the 'no deal' part. Common sense suggests an extension would have made sense given the current health crisis, that's not irrelevant. Only 5 months until year end. We all want a sensible trading arrangement with EU, not WTO.
Boris got barely any more support than May did, 43% to 42%. How the seats worked out for them both was pot luck in that Corbyn was popular in 2017 then he wasn't in 2019!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry to hear that. Hope it works out Ok!
Unless already 'marginal', I'd have thought most Independent School roles were relatively secure. That's certainly the case for the two I know a little about.
		
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Not sure, certainly around here. An independent in Camberley has gone under and a few are not as strong as they were as parents are struggling to find the fees (redundancies or questioning sending their kids to a fee paying school at these times, especially as they are expected to pay up front so if the schools close or revert to online they've already paid upfront). The school HID works at is looking at their whole admin function (she works in HR/finance) but also looking at marketing and other areas. Nothing concrete yet and there is now that air of uncertainty. Do you start looking (and as SILH's post showed if nothing else its a nightmare in the admin sector) and try and find something and leave a place you love working in, sit tight and take the redundancy if the worse happens and hope you get lucky before that runs out or see if there is something in the school elsewhere (with an inevitable big drop in salary)


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Twaddle
I think you missed the 'no deal' part. Common sense suggests an extension would have made sense given the current health crisis, that's not irrelevant. Only 5 months until year end. We all want a sensible trading arrangement with EU, not WTO.
Boris got barely any more support than May did, 43% to 42%. How the seats worked out for them both was pot luck in that Corbyn was popular in 2017 then he wasn't in 2019!
		
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Now that really IS Twaddle! It's not 'Common Sense...It's simply an excuse to extend!
BJ was elected with the largest majority in many years! How he achieved that is irrelevant - as it's bums on (government) seats that counts!
And while a complication, it's essential that negotiations proceed as planned - and that the UK side is not distracted by CV19 - and emphasises that to the EU side, who, no doubt, would be happy to have 'negotiations' extended - and collect several billion quid in the process!


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## drdel (Jul 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Twaddle
I think you missed the 'no deal' part. Common sense suggests an extension would have made sense given the current health crisis, that's not irrelevant. Only 5 months until year end. We all want a sensible trading arrangement with EU, not WTO.
Boris got barely any more support than May did, 43% to 42%. How the seats worked out for them both was pot luck in that Corbyn was popular in 2017 then he wasn't in 2019!
		
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Do we assume you are happy to allow EU
...advance knowledge of our planned industrial policy and trading plans,
..that the  Common Fisheries that allow 70% of fish to be caught by subsidised EU boats continues into the future.
..... for the ECJ to have the final say in UK legal issues.

Madness.


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## User62651 (Jul 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Do we assume you are happy to allow EU
...advance knowledge of our planned industrial policy and trading plans,
..that the  Common Fisheries that allow 70% of fish to be caught by subsidised EU boats continues into the future.
..... for the ECJ to have the final say in UK legal issues.

Madness.
		
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The whole exercise was madness, they hold the cards, we don't. Reality sucks.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			The whole exercise was madness, they hold the cards, we don't. Reality sucks.
		
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Oh, I see, roll over and hold up the begging bowl.  Cameron tried that one and look where it got him.


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## rulefan (Jul 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			The whole exercise was madness, they hold the cards, we don't. Reality sucks.
		
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Will they hold any cards when Holland and/or another rich north European country breaks away next?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And who will you blame for that. Boris?
		
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I don't _blame _anyone - and indeed that is not the point - I think the point is very clear.  If you lose your job now or in the coming (many) months it might be rather difficult to get another - and perhaps not quite as 'easy' as it might have been not 6 months ago.  

And with work harder to come by, many more than would otherwise have been be expected in 2020, will find themselves dependent upon the state - and _that_ is something that the government needs to be cognisant of whatever policies it brings forward in the coming months, and potentially the coming few years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			The whole exercise was madness, they hold the cards, we don't. Reality sucks.
		
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Who knows - the reality of life trading under WTO rules might taste very sweet indeed.

Though it is a pity that Johnson didn't actually understand fully what that implied 3 years after the referendum.  I _could_ draw from that that he didn't consider such a scenario as being very likely and so didn't bother to gen up on it for the TP leadership contest - I could but I won't - besides - WTO rules is all detail stuff and why he gathers the best people around him....which he has done...hasn't he...

Anyway - fish - and blue passports - oh...and sovereignty - hurrah! Oh I really must get over it...it's done (and it's in another thread)


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who knows - the reality of life trading under WTO rules might taste very sweet indeed.

Though it is a pity that Johnson didn't actually understand fully what that implied 3 years after the referendum.  I _could_ draw from that that he didn't consider such a scenario as being very likely and so didn't bother to gen up on it for the TP leadership contest - I could but I won't - besides - WTO rules is all detail stuff and why he gathers the best people around him....which he has done...hasn't he...

Anyway - fish - and blue passports - oh...and sovereignty - hurrah! Oh I really must get over it...it's done (and it's in another thread) 

Click to expand...

Get over it


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't _blame _anyone - and indeed that is not the point - I think the point is very clear.  If you lose your job now or in the coming (many) months it might be rather difficult to get another - and perhaps not quite as 'easy' as it might have been not 6 months ago. 

And with work harder to come by, many more than would otherwise have been be expected in 2020, will find themselves dependent upon the state - and _that_ is something that the government needs to be cognisant of whatever policies it brings forward in the coming months, and potentially the coming few years.
		
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Oh, I see.   Brexit is responsible for Corona virus


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## pauljames87 (Jul 28, 2020)

Glad they have said no stat sick pay if you have to come home and quarantine.. 

My work don't pay either..

They see it as a choice to travel aboard.. so tough really 

Correct

It's too risky ..

This is for me one of the most disappointing things about the handling of things during covid (that aren't covid itself)

We are rushing back to "normal" rather than making changes that could have a new way of life that might help other issues aswell


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## Foxholer (Jul 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:





SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't _blame _anyone - and indeed that is not the point - I think the point is very clear.  If you lose your job now or in the coming (many) months it might be rather difficult to get another - and perhaps not quite as 'easy' as it might have been not 6 months ago. 

And with work harder to come by, many more than would otherwise have been be expected in 2020, will find themselves dependent upon the state - and _that_ is something that the government needs to be cognisant of whatever policies it brings forward in the coming months, and potentially the coming few years.
		
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*Oh, I see.   Brexit is responsible for Corona virus* 

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Please explain how you made that leap from the post you quoted! SILH made no such allegation/suggestion/inference!


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## rudebhoy (Jul 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh, I see.   Brexit is responsible for Corona virus 

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A ridiculous post, even by your standards.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Please explain how you made that leap from the post you quoted! SILH made no such allegation/suggestion/inference!
		
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Oh yes, I seem to have got into Brexit mode from other posts  and went off half cocked. Sorry for that.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A ridiculous post, even by your standards.
		
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Opportunist twaddle, even by your standards. 🙄


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## rudebhoy (Jul 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Opportunist twaddle, even by your standards. 🙄
		
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What does that even mean?

Am getting worried about you, yesterday the Nazis were socialists, today you accuse a poster of blaming Covid on Brexit, when his post suggested nothing of the sort. Are you getting enough sleep?


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## Foxholer (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			...
Am getting worried about you.... Are you getting enough sleep?
		
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He reads my posts, so must be!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			What does that even mean?

Am getting worried about you, yesterday the Nazis were socialists, today you accuse a poster of blaming Covid on Brexit, when his post suggested nothing of the sort. Are you getting enough sleep?
		
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It means you are being opportunist in looking for any reason to post silly insults, its immature and ugly.  Just worry about yourself I am sure you have enough insecurities to fix.


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## rudebhoy (Jul 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It means you are being opportunist in looking for any reason to post silly insults, its immature and ugly.  Just worry about yourself I am sure you have enough insecurities to fix.
		
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5 insults in a two sentence post, that could be a record

It's a discussion board. I responded to a comment of yours which was patently ridiculous - is that really being "opportunist"?

I have been ignoring your posts for the last few weeks as all you want to do is snipe at posters who don't share your view of the world, but I stupidly got drawn in by your Nazi = Socialist trolling yesterday. Lesson learned, I'll stop biting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

LOL.  Merging two recent themes of discussion on here -  maybe the Tories are going to have to morph into something akin to a socialist party as they look to help and support those who have lost, or will be losing, their jobs and find themselves stuck on UC as they are unable to get a job...and find themselves - despite themselves - depending upon the state to support their families - and get them back into work...After all - Sunak has been throwing money about as if he _were _a socialist - with his largesse going to pretty much one and all - though unfortunately missing out some who really need it whilst making rather content some who really don't.

We are of course going to have to start paying for it down the line, and I cant see that simply cutting public spending or international aid will be enough.  Tax rises anyone?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LOL.  Merging two recent themes of discussion on here -  maybe the Tories are going to have to morph into something akin to a socialist party as they look to help and support those who have lost, or will be losing, their jobs and find themselves stuck on UC as they are unable to get a job...and find themselves - despite themselves - depending upon the state to support their families - and get them back into work...After all - Sunak has been throwing money about as if he _were _a socialist - with his largesse going to pretty much one and all - though unfortunately missing out some who really need it whilst making rather content some who really don't.

We are of course going to have to start paying for it down the line, and I cant see that simply cutting public spending or international aid will be enough.  *Tax rises anyone*?
		
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Are you serious?   
After all the spending the government have done, as you describe above, do you seriously doubt that there will be tax rises down the line?
Of course there will be. It is expected and it will be a correct thing for the government to do. The arguments will start over who should pay how much😀.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Are you serious?  
After all the spending the government have done, as you describe above, do you seriously doubt that there will be tax rises down the line?
Of course there will be. It is expected and it will be a correct thing for the government to do. The arguments will start over who should pay how much😀.
		
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Indeed...so when asked the Tax Rise question, any minister worth his salt might as well just state that very self-evident expectation - if not fact.  That they will, however, continue to avoid giving a straight answer to the tax rise question does nothing for their credibility and our belief in anything they might say. Maybe they think we're stupid.


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed...so when asked the Tax Rise question, any minister worth his salt might as well just state that very self-evident expectation - if not fact.  That they will, however, continue to avoid giving a straight answer to the tax rise question does nothing for their credibility and our belief in anything they might say. Maybe they think we're stupid.
		
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But Sunak has already stated there’ll need to be tax rises. Further, both yesterday and today he has spoken about a new tax for online sales. 

May be others have dodged the question but he hasn’t.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Are you serious?  
After all the spending the government have done, as you describe above, do you seriously doubt that there will be tax rises down the line?
Of course there will be. It is expected and it will be a correct thing for the government to do. The arguments will start over who should pay how much😀.
		
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Of course. Anything to spread the lies and cover up the government are perpetuating during the whole crisis on any given subject from holiday advice, restarting the economy to tax rises. The arguments presented are morphing into one.

Of course we'll get tax rises and the government have actually been quite open about it especially the Chancellor. People won't like it (they never do) but given what has been done to try and keep as many people getting some form of income per month and trying as best they can to keep the country afloat I don't think the government has done badly and people need to be realistic that their furlough money etc has to be recouped from somewhere.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But Sunak has already stated there’ll need to be tax rises. Further, both yesterday and today he has spoken about a new tax for online sales.

May be others have dodged the question but he hasn’t.
		
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Actually I think I may have heard Sunak say something about that - but others do avoid and have not really been that open about tax rises of any sort - property tax anyone?  I am not sure I've heard Johnson tell of tax rises to come - as I suspect they have been told to not answer the question...but just allow Sunak to say it as he can use up some of the political capital he has built up in the public through his 'keeping us afloat' measures...


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Actually I think I may have heard Sunak say something about that - but others do avoid and have not really been that open about tax rises of any sort - property tax anyone?  I am not sure I've heard Johnson tell of tax rises to come - as I suspect they have been told to not answer the question...but just allow Sunak to say it as he can use up some of the political capital he has built up in the public through his 'keeping us afloat' measures...
		
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To be fair, I'd expect others to be vague. They aren't the chancellor. All you would need is for some other MP/Minister to say something about tax rises. The interviewer asks a follow up question, and god knows where it could lead - an MP or minister floating an idea that the chancellor isn't in favour of. Then you'd see the chancellor appear to be back tracking over something that was never on the agenda anyway.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Actually I think I may have heard Sunak say something about that - but others do avoid and have not really been that open about tax rises of any sort - property tax anyone?  I am not sure I've heard Johnson tell of tax rises to come - as I suspect they have been told to not answer the question...but just allow Sunak to say it as he can use up some of the political capital he has built up in the public through his 'keeping us afloat' measures...
		
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I can't make up my mind from your two last answers whether you are saying that Ministers ( excluding Sunak who you *may* have heard) have said anything about future tax and avoided saying that there will be tax rises,             or that you think they will avoid when asked.
Perhaps you would do better to direct us to an instance ( or more) where they have?
Which would be better than making what might be seen as snide innuendos as to what those you readily attack may do.

For clarity, it is wrong of them if they have denied saying there will be rises,or avoided saying so.
It would also be naively foolish to do so knowing that Sunak, the Head financial guy, is readily saying there will be.


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## Old Skier (Jul 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But Sunak has already stated there’ll need to be tax rises. Further, both yesterday and today he has spoken about a new tax for online sales.

May be others have dodged the question but he hasn’t.
		
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You don’t expect SILH to actually listen to what’s being said. He might learn something.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53577222


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You don’t expect SILH to actually listen to what’s being said. He might learn something.
		
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Have we heard Johnson talk of tax rises?  I suspect not (though maybe he has) as Johnson wouldn't want to own such bad news...and I said that I thought I have heard Sunak talk of tax rises because I can't recall exactly when I did - what tax he was talking about - or in what context - other than the pandemic...what else do you want?


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2020)

Johnson is clinging to the fantasy that the UK can grow its way out of most of the financial crisis. I think Sunak knows that is delusional, but doesn't really want to say. Pity that Brexit is going to take a large dump over the economy soon, and Johnson's idea that it will be difficult to see the Brexit-related damage with all the noise of Covid is mistaken.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Johnson is clinging to the fantasy that the UK can grow its way out of most of the financial crisis. I think Sunak knows that is delusional, but doesn't really want to say. Pity that Brexit is going to take a large dump over the economy soon, and Johnson's idea that it will be difficult to see the Brexit-related damage with all the noise of Covid is mistaken.
		
Click to expand...

One way of looking at it is that brexit is now going to have slightly less affect to the economy than before.. everyone's economy is screwed so at least we screwed together 

Can start again 

Only positive I can take


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			One way of looking at it is that brexit is now going to have slightly less affect to the economy than before.. everyone's economy is screwed so at least we screwed together

Can start again

Only positive I can take
		
Click to expand...

I missed the positive there. Is that some people will feel better about being screwed if others are unnecessarily screwed too? 

I would put it more like the economy may emerge crippled, then Brexit will kick its crutches away. I don't see how that will help recovery.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I missed the positive there. Is that some people will feel better about being screwed if others are unnecessarily screwed too? 

I would put it more like the economy may emerge crippled, then Brexit will kick its crutches away. I don't see how that will help recovery.
		
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It won't help recovery. That's not what I said 

Im saying that the timing is fortunate. Our economy is so buggered anyways that it will have less affect than it would of

Silver lining 

I'd still rather it cancelled.


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It won't help recovery. That's not what I said

Im saying that the timing is fortunate. Our economy is so buggered anyways that it will have less affect than it would of

Silver lining

I'd still rather it cancelled.
		
Click to expand...

I think the timing is spectacularly unfortunate, although avoidable. An economy that is buggered by external events may be even more vulnerable to lasting damage by additional unnecessary ones. Any responsible Govt, even a rabble of feral Brexiters, should extend to spare the extra damage which will affect the poor much more than the hedge fund traders.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2020)

Some good covid UK info on this site.
https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/


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## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the timing is spectacularly unfortunate, although avoidable. An economy that is buggered by external events may be even more vulnerable to lasting damage by additional unnecessary ones. Any responsible Govt, even a rabble of feral Brexiters, should extend to spare the extra damage which will affect the poor much more than the hedge fund traders.
		
Click to expand...

You little ray of sunshine.  Try a modicum of balance.


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## Crazyface (Jul 30, 2020)

The BBC, quick to attck the government over every step they have taken to control COVID,  have news readers who have obviously been away on holiday sunning themselves. God I hate the BBC.


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## Crazyface (Jul 30, 2020)

Lockdown in certain places. Just why is no one connecting the dots?


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## Crazyface (Jul 30, 2020)

Also, this thing is not going to go away for a while. But hang on we still have pneumonia which kills people, and a load of other stuff that kills, it's about time we stood up and said "nutz to it, let us take ours chances".


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 31, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			The BBC, quick to attck the government over every step they have taken to control COVID,  have news readers who have obviously been away on holiday sunning themselves. God I hate the BBC.
		
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If you think the BBC is against the government I'd avoid Channel 4 news if I were you. Loads worse.

Plus even a brainless idiot like me can tell that by the colour of Kristen Guru Murphy it's obvious he has been away on holiday a lot. As despite everything that is going on in the world, I agree with you and our fellow gammons that frequent the dark recesses of the Mail on Line comments sections that newsreaders with a tan is a legitimate reason to get really angry. God I hate Brookside and Countdown.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the timing is spectacularly unfortunate, although avoidable. An economy that is buggered by external events may be even more vulnerable to lasting damage by additional unnecessary ones. Any responsible Govt, even a rabble of feral Brexiters, should extend to spare the extra damage which will affect the poor much more than the hedge fund traders.
		
Click to expand...

Not even a "rabble of feral Brexiters" comes close to the insane delusional rants of idiotic Remainers who cannot accept that they lost a democratic election.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Not even a "rabble of feral Brexiters" comes close to the insane delusional rants of idiotic Remainers who cannot accept that they lost a democratic election.
		
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It wasn't an election,  It was a consultative (aka pre-legislative, or in Brexiter language, advisory) referendum. If you don't know the difference between those, you really should just stay quiet.

Enjoy all the devastation that this will bring to the country. Just remember to accept responsibility for it, although you probably won't because most Brexiters are all mouth and no trousers.

if you have any examples of delusional rants made by Remainers, do tell. There is a massive list of lies  told by Brexiters. Wanna hear a few?


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## Beezerk (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It wasn't an election,  It was a consultative (aka pre-legislative, or in Brexiter language, advisory) referendum. If you don't know the difference between those, you really should just stay quiet.

Enjoy all the devastation that this will bring to the country. Just remember to accept responsibility for it, although you probably won't because most Brexiters are all mouth and no trousers.

if you have any examples of delusional rants made by Reaminers, do tell. There is a massive list of lies  told by Brexiters. Wanna hear a few?
		
Click to expand...

My irony meter just blew up 😲


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			My irony meter just blew up 😲
		
Click to expand...

Go on, explain. Your irony meter may have been set wrongly.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jul 31, 2020)

Nice to see we have a moderator who doesn't believe the rules apply to him.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Nice to see we have a moderator who doesn't believe the rules apply to him.
		
Click to expand...

He's only following the example set by Dominic Cummings.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Nice to see we have a moderator who doesn't believe the rules apply to him.
		
Click to expand...

At least a Brexiter dodging the main point is very much on brand. Well done. 

I don't think I am a moderator any more. Don't have the moderation tools.


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## Beezerk (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Go on, explain. Your irony meter may have been set wrongly.
		
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Your post, to me anyway, seemed quite shouty, ranty, angry man with a few personal digs thrown in for good measure. The thing you seem to suggest only comes from Brexiteers 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Your post, to me anyway, seemed quite shouty, ranty, angry man with a few personal digs thrown in for good measure. The thing you seem to suggest only comes from Brexiteers 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
Click to expand...

You have it wrong. I was just responding to you in the language you seem to understand. One of the basics of communication.


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## Beezerk (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You have it wrong. I was just responding to you in the language you seem to understand. One of the basics of communication.
		
Click to expand...

Must just be me who read it wrong then 👀


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## pauljames87 (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It wasn't an election,  It was a consultative (aka pre-legislative, or in Brexiter language, advisory) referendum. If you don't know the difference between those, you really should just stay quiet.

Enjoy all the devastation that this will bring to the country. Just remember to accept responsibility for it, although you probably won't because most Brexiters are all mouth and no trousers.

if you have any examples of delusional rants made by Remainers, do tell. There is a massive list of lies  told by Brexiters. Wanna hear a few?
		
Click to expand...

Is there a direct link between brexitors and non mask wearers? I mean they don't like someone else telling them what to do.. just an observation from those on twitter who are against them.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there a direct link between brexitors and non mask wearers? I mean they don't like someone else telling them what to do.. just an observation from those on twitter who are against them.
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes, and to a lesser extent, anti-vaxx too.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Also, this thing is not going to go away for a while. But hang on we still have* pneumonia* which kills people, and a load of other stuff that kills, it's about time we stood up and said "nutz to it, let us take ours chances".
		
Click to expand...

Yep! That's (one of) the way(s) C19 eventually kills! And FWIW, it's what was _eventually_ cause-of-death for my Ex several (5) years ago.
Perhaps you meant influenza!
And your suggestion is simply daft for so many reasons! Having 'Crazy' as part of your handle is entirely appropriate!


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## DRW (Jul 31, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there a direct link between brexitors and non mask wearers? I mean they don't like someone else telling them what to do.. just an observation from those on twitter who are against them.
		
Click to expand...




Ethan said:



			Oh yes, and to a lesser extent, anti-vaxx too.
		
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What are you two talking about....


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there a direct link between brexitors and non mask wearers? I mean they don't like someone else telling them what to do.. just an observation from those on twitter who are against them.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call it a 'direct link', so much as an 'associated attribute'. It does seem that 'independence' is the umbrella emotion. Similar to the way those who defy such reason in US are more likely to be Republicans than Democrats.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Oh yes, and to a lesser extent, anti-vaxx too.
		
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Ah yes the crazys 

Not saying all brexit voters are crazy ofc but all crazys seem to be the type who anti vax.. anti mask.. anti EU ... Covid is fake type


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## DanFST (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Oh yes, and to a lesser extent, anti-vaxx too.
		
Click to expand...

Some posters may struggle to put on a mask, with their heads being firmly lodged up their own backsides.


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## drdel (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It wasn't an election, you fool. It was a consultative (aka pre-legislative, or in Brexiter language, advisory) referendum. If you don't know the difference between those, you really should just stay quiet.

Enjoy all the devastation that your braindead bigotry will bring to the country. Just remember to accept responsibility for it, although you probably won't because most Brexiters are all mouth and no trousers.

if you have any examples of delusional rants made by Remainers, do tell. There is a massive list of lies and bullshit told by Brexiters. Wanna hear a few?
		
Click to expand...

Why the constant ranting language and insults against those who dare to disagree.

You may have not noticed but the global economy is fluctuating. The UK is in a relatively good state.  Having left the EU we have better levers of control with our own currency and the BOE to address the consequences of COVID and Brexit.

Perhaps we could get back on subject and trying to treat others with respect.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			Why the constant ranting language and insults against those who dare to disagree.

You may have not noticed but the global economy is fluctuating. The UK is in a relatively good state.  Having left the EU we have better levers of control with our own currency and the BOE to address the consequences of COVID and Brexit.

Perhaps we could get back on subject and trying to treat others with respect.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t agree with Ethan’s choice of language, but once again I can’t see anybody but him responding to another posters choice of language, ie, _“insane delusional rants of idiotic Remainers” _or is it ignored when we agree with the insult and language used?


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			Why the constant ranting language and insults against those who dare to disagree.

You may have not noticed but the global economy is fluctuating. The UK is in a relatively good state.  Having left the EU we have better levers of control with our own currency and the BOE to address the consequences of COVID and Brexit.

Perhaps we could get back on subject and trying to treat others with respect.
		
Click to expand...

You are a bit of a hypocrite, aren’t you? In an earlier thread you impugned my professional credentials, without stating your own, but when I called you on it, you slunk off and said nothing. And now you lecture me on respect?

If you don’t like what I write, and you haven’t the Titleists to respond to the substance, then show your disapproval by ignoring it 

The U.K. economy is not in a good state. It is expected to do worst of major European economies, it has already well ahead in terms of decline. Adding Brexit to Covid is utterly reckless and will cause untold unnecessary damage. As for our currency, we were never in the Euro and had control of our currency, for all the good it did.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

Listening to Matt Hancock this morning explaining the 'Northern Restrictions' - I wish he had sounded more sure of what he was saying - he was often really hesitant when questioned.

If there is one minister I still have some residual faith in in respect of understanding the pandemic then it is he (Sunak has done what he basically had to do)...and so when Hancock sounds like he's struggling I do find that a real concern.  If he struggles to explain things simply and clearly, then what hope has the public got of understanding all the IF...THEN..ELSE scenarios.  I heard reported this morning a survey that has found that 14% of those asked felt they fully understood the rules.  And that's really not good.

At least Hancock was clear on one thing - that there is going to be a real push on the Public Information front - to ram the message home to us all.  Hopefully it will focus on the basics of what we all MUST be doing at the moment - just leave the various scenarios aside for the moment. 

Because many if not most of the folks sitting at tables outside the town pub that me and my Mrs walked past last night did not seem to be obeying the basic rules...of social distancing and masks.  That might not matter at the moment in my town as virus in the community might be very low.  But if the virus gets into our community - and we won't know it's there until it's blowing up - the behaviours we saw last night could well result in problems.


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## DRW (Jul 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t agree with Ethan’s choice of language, but once again I can’t see anybody but him responding to another posters choice of language, ie, _“insane delusional rants of idiotic Remainers” _or is it ignored when we agree with the insult and language used?

Click to expand...

Thought I would mention ethan posted this* first *:-



Ethan said:



			I think the timing is spectacularly unfortunate, although avoidable. An economy that is buggered by external events may be even more vulnerable to lasting damage by additional unnecessary ones. Any responsible Govt, even a *rabble of feral Brexiters*, should extend to spare the extra damage which will affect the poor much more than the hedge fund traders.
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest reading the thread in original and with an open mind.

BTW I am not saying two wrongs make a right....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Matt Hancock this morning explaining the 'Northern Restrictions' - I wish he had sounded more sure of what he was saying - he was often really hesitant when questioned. 

If there is one minister I still have some residual faith in in respect of understanding the pandemic then it is he (Sunak has done what he basically had to do)...and so when Hancock sounds like he's struggling I do find that a real concern.  If he struggles to explain things simply and clearly, then what hope has the public got of understanding all the IF...THEN..ELSE scenarios.  I heard reported this morning a survey that has found that 14% of those asked felt they fully understood the rules.  And that's really not good. 

At least Hancock was clear on one thing - that there is going to be a real push on the Public Information front - to ram the message home to us all.  Hopefully it will focus on the basics of what we all MUST be doing at the moment - just leave the various scenarios aside for the moment.
		
Click to expand...

The big “cock up” that was made in respect of the latest “lockdown” imo, was releasing it on twitter late at night.

Is that really the way a Government should be releasing the decision and information to those affected by it, surely a news conference or a press release is more appropriate than a series of “tweets”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 31, 2020)

DRW said:



			Thought I would mention ethan posted this* first *:-



I would suggest reading the thread in original and with an open mind.

BTW I am not saying two wrongs make a right....
		
Click to expand...

And as I said, I didn’t and don’t agree with Ethan’s language, but all responses since have been one sided when the response to his initial post was just as bad and very unlikely to calm the waters.

To use another cliche “it takes two to tango”


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

DRW said:



			Thought I would mention ethan posted this* first *:-



I would suggest reading the thread in original and with an open mind.

BTW I am not saying two wrongs make a right....
		
Click to expand...

So lets break it down. 

Brexiters, certainly, I am sure you would agree. Chosen by the Leave EU guru for that reason as well as the same applying to other non-Govt posts. Most original Brexiters, some late converts.

Rabble, well to be honest that covers any and all politicians as far as I concerned. 

So that leaves feral. Was that the word that triggered some here? Ah, bless. Anyway, "feral, adj, of or characteristic of wild animals; ferocious; brutal." I would argue that is the case, with many examples of ferocity and brutality, ranging from the effects on local populations from inevitable companies closing due to Brexit, to the hostile environment for immigrants, scandalous treatment of NHS workers, willingness to sacrifice scapegoats at the drop of a hat. 

In any case, unless there is a Secretary of State lurking, it did not refer to anyone here. Yet the same faux offended are happy to take a personal pop at me. 

Maybe I should have added snowflake, a term much beloved of Brexiters. Now, that's first class irony.


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Nice to see we have a moderator who doesn't believe the rules apply to him.
		
Click to expand...

Common theme with him unfortunately


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## Billysboots (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I don't think I am a moderator any more. Don't have the moderation tools.
		
Click to expand...

You might want to try and lose the “Global Moderator” tag, then.

Everyone has their own debating style, but choosing the one you do, given the suggestion you are a moderator, perhaps isn’t particularly helpful to those who _*do *_moderate this forum.

(Mod Edit, Global Mod tag removed and a word had, naughty step beckons)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Common theme with him unfortunately
		
Click to expand...

And have we got back on track? Or have others come along and continued the one sided comments adding nothing to thread?

Funny how nobody on the right of politics is discussed in this manner or if it’s perceived “your” face fits, you can post away.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The big “cock up” that was made in respect of the latest “lockdown” imo, was releasing it on twitter late at night.

Is that really the way a Government should be releasing the decision and information to those affected by it, surely a news conference or a press release is more appropriate than a series of “tweets”
		
Click to expand...

I didn't really want to bring that up...but it doesn't help - and though Hancock was firm on the need to apply the restrictions immediately (OK) - he said he'd been in discussions with Andy Burnham on it for a week or so. Did the notification really then need to be 3hrs notice at 9pm - by twitter?  What's that all about.  Government by twitter...


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			And have we got back on track? Or have others come along and continued the one sided comments adding nothing to thread?

Funny how nobody on the right of politics is discussed in this manner or if it’s perceived “your” face fits, you can post away.
		
Click to expand...

Come on, not agreeing to some of your politics doesn’t necessarily mean your on the right of politics. It’s just unfortunate that the man decides to throw a hand grenade in the thread  using confrontational language knowing that it will get a response that it did.

Unfortunate but it is Friday.


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn't really want to bring that up...but it doesn't help - and though Hancock was firm on the need to apply the restrictions immediately (OK) - he said he'd been in discussions with Andy Burnham on it for a week or so. Did the notification really then need to be 3hrs notice at 9pm - by twitter?  What's that all about.  Government by twitter...

Click to expand...

Perhaps a figure had been agreed with the relevant local authorities and it was hit yesterday.

Ministers should stay away from social media and Starmer was right, this should have been announced by news conference at the time.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Come on, not agreeing to some of your politics doesn’t necessarily mean your on the right of politics. It’s just unfortunate that the man decides to throw a hand grenade in the thread  using confrontational language knowing that it will get a response that it did.

Unfortunate but it is Friday.
		
Click to expand...

I voted Leave, I ignored him,

Choices are:
Like it (like minded)
Ignore (live with it)
Report (hope the mods agree)
Respond (risk inflaming the situation)

What happened? Yet nobody has took the responder to task? Why? Because people had the choices above.

As for the global moderator against his name, report it and ask, didn’t a mod recently amend the title of a forum user and people thought it was funny. (Including me)


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## drdel (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You are a bit of a hypocrite, aren’t you? In an earlier thread you impugned my professional credentials, without stating your own, but when I called you on it, (1) *you slunk off and said nothing.* And now you lecture me on respect?

If you don’t like what I write, and (2) *you haven’t the Titleists to respond to the substance*, then show your disapproval by ignoring it

*(3) The U.K. economy is not in a good state. It is expected to do worst of major European economies, it has already well ahead in terms of decline. Adding Brexit to Covid is utterly reckless and will cause untold unnecessary damage. As for our currency, we were never in the Euro and had control of our currency, for all the good it did*.
		
Click to expand...

1. Never 'slunk' off anywhere: you were (as you well know) merely baiting for the sake of an argument not debate. I did not use insulting language I robustly challenged the opinions you made as statements of fact because I disagreed.

3. Childish

2. These are your opinions and not fact.  UK is not in a "worst state" the major EU members - France, Spain and Italy etc are in decline >10%, Germany is also expected to hit 10% decline. Nowhere did I say we were in the Euro. Brexit is the outcome of a democratically executed process that needs to be concluded swiftly to provide investment, business and security stability. COVID is a novel virus impacting globally the UK does not have the control. The UK can address the issues concurrently and will do so: reckless' is an opinion.

As for the suggestion "..for all the good it did.." The BoE has used measured QE and other levers which enabled a better response to 2007/8 than many others.

Back to topic?


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## Slab (Jul 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The big “cock up” that was made in respect of the latest “lockdown” imo, *was releasing it on twitter late at night.*

Is that really the way a Government should be releasing the decision and information to those affected by it, surely a news conference or a press release is more appropriate than a series of “tweets”
		
Click to expand...

When I read about that it brought back memories of them changing the lock-down here from_ 'confinement'_ when we went to bed into _'curfew' _when we woke up next morning with zero food shops open  (that'll make you ration your cornflakes)


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because many if not most of the folks sitting at tables outside the town pub that me and my Mrs walked past last night did not seem to be obeying the basic rules...of social distancing and masks.  That might not matter at the moment in my town as virus in the community might be very low.  But if the virus gets into our community - and we won't know it's there until it's blowing up - the behaviours we saw last night could well result in problems.
		
Click to expand...

What is the rule in the UK when you're sitting at a table in a pub/restaurant? In Spain, when beyond your front door, just about the only time you can take your mask off is when sitting at a table in a bar/restaurant or on the beach. After all, it is kinda hard drinking your pint with a mask on...


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 31, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there a direct link between brexitors and non mask wearers? I mean they don't like someone else telling them what to do.. just an observation from those on twitter who are against them.
		
Click to expand...

As a brexit voter I can confirm that. A direct correlation between those who wet the bed and those that don’t.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Matt Hancock this morning explaining the 'Northern Restrictions' - I wish he had sounded more sure of what he was saying - he was often really hesitant when questioned.

If there is one minister I still have some residual faith in in respect of understanding the pandemic then it is he (Sunak has done what he basically had to do)...and so when Hancock sounds like he's struggling I do find that a real concern.  If he struggles to explain things simply and clearly, then what hope has the public got of understanding all the IF...THEN..ELSE scenarios.  I heard reported this morning a survey that has found that 14% of those asked felt they fully understood the rules.  And that's really not good.

At least Hancock was clear on one thing - that there is going to be a real push on the Public Information front - to ram the message home to us all.  Hopefully it will focus on the basics of what we all MUST be doing at the moment - just leave the various scenarios aside for the moment.

Because many if not most of the folks sitting at tables outside the town pub that me and my Mrs walked past last night did not seem to be obeying the basic rules...of social distancing and masks.  That might not matter at the moment in my town as virus in the community might be very low.  But if the virus gets into our community - and we won't know it's there until it's blowing up - the behaviours we saw last night could well result in problems.
		
Click to expand...

Come on, for goodness sake.
Your last two paras have the inference that the lack of S D and mask use is down to "not ramming the message home" and again it is because the government haven't done this properly or that properly....
It is because these people choose to ignore the advice ( which they very well understand) that you saw what you saw.
As for the 14%, it is more a comment on the indiscipline and selfishness of today's society, with a good measure of stupidity thrown in, than it is with the official advice not being clear.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			1. Never 'slunk' off anywhere: you were (as you well know) merely baiting for the sake of an argument not debate. I did not use insulting language I robustly challenged the opinions you made as statements of fact because I disagreed.

3. Childish

2. These are your opinions and not fact.  UK is not in a "worst state" the major EU members - France, Spain and Italy etc are in decline >10%, Germany is also expected to hit 10% decline. Nowhere did I say we were in the Euro. Brexit is the outcome of a democratically executed process that needs to be concluded swiftly to provide investment, business and security stability. COVID is a novel virus impacting globally the UK does not have the control. The UK can address the issues concurrently and will do so: reckless' is an opinion.

As for the suggestion "..for all the good it did.." The BoE has used measured QE and other levers which enabled a better response to 2007/8 than many others.

Back to topic?
		
Click to expand...

Rubbish. You never previously justified any of the assertions you presented as fact. Nor did you provide credentials so that anyone could judge if you knew what you were talking about. The username "Drdel" should have alerted people to some ego issues, though. 

The UK is currently in slower decline because it was previously in greater decline. It is simply waiting at the bottom of the valley to see who else will fall in. you mentioned control of our currency. That implied the EU had some control over it. They didn't.

Brexit is the result of a feud in the Tory party which resulted in a consultative referendum based on a set of promises to the electorate almost all of which have now been abandoned.

The UK controlled its own response to Covid and few disagree that it has been an utter shambles. Germany did several orders of magnitude better. The economic effects will be bad, and adding the effects of Brexit to those is reckless. It is the opinion of Nobel wining ecionmicts that is so.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Rubbish. You never previously justified any of the assertions you presented as fact. Nor did you provide credentials so that anyone could judge if you knew what you were talking about. The username "Drdel" should have alerted people to some ego issues, though.

The UK is currently in slower decline because it was previously in greater decline. It is simply waiting at the bottom of the valley to see who else will fall in. you mentioned control of our currency. That implied the EU had some control over it. They didn't.

Brexit is the result of a feud in the Tory party which resulted in a consultative referendum based on a set of promises to the electorate almost all of which have now been abandoned.

The UK controlled its own response to Covid and few disagree that it has been an utter shambles. Germany did several orders of magnitude better. The economic effects will be bad, and adding the effects of Brexit to those is reckless. It is the opinion of Nobel wining ecionmicts that is so.
		
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 "Nor did you provide credentials...."

Its just a discussion forum, not flippin' some gentleman's club in London for toffs... "provide credentials..." pompous or what!?! Sorry Ethan but that's hilarious. And have you scanned yours in so that we can review them??? 

Jeez, this has got to be the best laugh ever on here... "Provide credentials..." oh my sides...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What is the rule in the UK when you're sitting at a table in a pub/restaurant? In Spain, when beyond your front door, just about the only time you can take your mask off is when sitting at a table in a bar/restaurant or on the beach. After all, it is kinda hard drinking your pint with a mask on...

Click to expand...

You don't need to wear a mask in a pub, restaurant or cafe. You had to wear one in a shop / retail space but that has been expanded today to some other places such as museums and similar. In all honesty, if it is indoors and you are not eating or drinking then you put one on. Pretty simple unless you are one of the people looking for a get out, no I don't mean those with medical reasons for not wearing one.

You don't have to wear one when walking about, only when you enter somewhere.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



 "Nor did you provide credentials...."

Its just a discussion forum, not flippin' some gentleman's club in London for toffs... "provide credentials..." pompous or what!?! Sorry Ethan but that's hilarious. And have you scanned yours in so that we can review them??? 

Jeez, this has got to be the best laugh ever on here... "Provide credentials..." oh my sides...

Click to expand...

He waffled on using technical jargon, as if he knew what he was talking about, and at the same time criticised my expertise, which I had previously described. I wanted to know if he was an expert in the area of modelling. In science, you check the provenance of opinions and their stated facts. Not to provide them is hypocritical. 

I really couldn't give a toss if your sides split or not as a result.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			He waffled on using technical jargon, as if he knew what he was talking about, and at the same time criticised my expertise, which I had previously described. I wanted to know if he was an expert in the area of modelling. In science, you check the provenance of opinions and their stated facts. Not to provide them is hypocritical.

I really couldn't give a toss if your sides split or not as a result.
		
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You crack on mate. .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What is the rule in the UK when you're sitting at a table in a pub/restaurant? In Spain, when beyond your front door, just about the only time you can take your mask off is when sitting at a table in a bar/restaurant or on the beach. After all, it is kinda hard drinking your pint with a mask on...

Click to expand...

Off the top of my head I honestly don't know.  I think that it depends upon where you are; who you are with; how many of you there are in your group; how many are in another group you associate with; whether you are inside or out; or in the Manchester; East Lancs; West Yorkshire area...

If I am exaggerating the variations then tell me - because I am frankly now lost.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Off the top of my head I honestly don't know.  I think that it depends upon where you are; who you are with; how many of you there are in your group; how many are in another group you associate with; whether you are inside or out; or in the Manchester; East Lancs; West Yorkshire area...

If I am exaggerating the variations then tell me - because I am frankly now lost.
		
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People here in Mojacar are struggling to understand whats going on too. Many locals don't want tourists but obviously the bar owners etc do. Today's headline in the local press. 4 Spaniards return to Sevilla after a week here and are found to have Covid-19. Did they get it here? Did they bring it with them? Did they get it from other tourists that brought it here? Hysteria is running wild.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Oh the irony 

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Must be hard for you thick people to keep up. You ask Ethan...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on, for goodness sake.
Your last two paras have the inference that the lack of S D and mask use is down to "not ramming the message home" and again it is because the government haven't done this properly or that properly....
It is because these people choose to ignore the advice ( which they very well understand) that you saw what you saw.
As for the 14%, it is more a comment on the indiscipline and selfishness of today's society, with a good measure of stupidity thrown in, than it is with the official advice not being clear.
		
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All very well and good - but I am only mentioning the Public Information getting 'hammered home' (my words) as that is what Hancock has been saying this morning as he said he recognises the need to make sure that everyone does have the information that they need given where we are today - and that the guidance is clear and cannot be missed.  So Hancock himself was implying that for some the message is not getting through - and indeed that the messaging has to get better as iin more forceful?  

And 14% just indiscipline?.  Not sure that stating when questioned that you don't understand the rules fully is the same as being undisciplined or selfish.  Some on here claim to understand the rules but have said that they will choose to ignore them - indeed one of my golfing buddies on Saturday said exactly that to me.  I cannot say that I fully understand them as I do not - but I adhere to the very basics that I DO understand.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
You may have not noticed but the global economy is fluctuating. *The UK is in a relatively good state*.  Having left the EU we have better levers of control with our own currency and _the BOE to address the consequences of COVID and Brexit_.
...
		
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Re the Bold bit....It would, however, be an immense stretch of the imagination to believe it's in a 'good' state though. The effect of C19 has probably been - and will be - much worse than the Banking Crisis that wiped Labour's credibility with the electorate!

Re the Italicised bit...UK ALWAYS had our own currency and the BOE - even while in the EU - so that 'argument' is irrelevant!


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## GB72 (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Off the top of my head I honestly don't know.  I think that it depends upon where you are; who you are with; how many of you there are in your group; how many are in another group you associate with; whether you are inside or out; or in the Manchester; East Lancs; West Yorkshire area...

If I am exaggerating the variations then tell me - because I am frankly now lost.
		
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General rule for pubs and restaurants, no masks, groups of no more than 6, groups at least 1m apart. Pubs round me are pretty sorted on this, turn up and they will seat your group according to the rules.


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Off the top of my head I honestly don't know.  I think that it depends upon where you are; who you are with; how many of you there are in your group; how many are in another group you associate with; whether you are inside or out; or in the Manchester; East Lancs; West Yorkshire area...

If I am exaggerating the variations then tell me - because I am frankly now lost.
		
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Instead of listening to what you want to hear listen to what is being said.  The underlying tone is "If you don't stop being selfish, interpreting the rules in a way that suits you and play the I'm confused tag as you feel fit, the restrictions will get worse." Shame that political correctness stops them from saying it in my opinion.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Re the Bold bit....*It would, however, be an immense stretch of the imagination to believe it's in a 'good' state though. *The effect of C19 has probably been - and will be - much worse than the Banking Crisis that wiped Labour's credibility with the electorate!

Re the Italicised bit...UK ALWAYS had our own currency and the BOE - even while in the EU - so that 'argument' is irrelevant!
		
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I'm more worried about the fact our economy seems to mostly rely on people buying pasties from Greggs and burger and chips from Wetherspoons. I'd of hoped it was a bit more structurally sound and be better able to withstand the odd crisis here and there.  But seems not, so I best get down the spoons as soon as poss.


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## IanM (Jul 31, 2020)

you'd have to be a bit of a wombat to think you can shut down an economy without any adverse impact.   But there are plenty of those about!


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2020)

IanM said:



			you'd have to be a bit of a wombat to think you can shut down an economy without any adverse impact.   But there are plenty of those about! 

Click to expand...

And many will be quick to blame the incumbent government forgetting that a major part of our economy is hospitality which suffered some of the heaviest loses and required substantially assist fro the various government schemes.

While we as a nation prefere quantity over quality this will be a problem.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

GB72 said:



			General rule for pubs and restaurants, no masks, groups of no more than 6, groups at least 1m apart. Pubs round me are pretty sorted on this, turn up and they will seat your group according to the rules.
		
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Well many of the folks we saw sitting outside our local pub were not adhering to that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Instead of listening to what you want to hear listen to what is being said.  The underlying tone is "If you don't stop being selfish, interpreting the rules in a way that suits you and play the I'm confused tag as you feel fit, the restrictions will get worse." Shame that political correctness stops them from saying it in my opinion.
		
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Nothing to do with what I want to hear - I'm trying to understand them all - and it's a moving feast.  14% say they fully understand ALL of the rules - *in a poll* why would the 86% say that they don't understand all the rules if they did.  I understand some of the rules - I do not understand all of the rules for all different scenarios.  If you have listened to Hancock at all today you'll hear how on top of the rules and the rationale for them that he is.

I do not have any personal issue.  If I am not sure about what I can or cannot do in any coming scenario I might be involved in then I look it up - and if I don't like what I read then I don't do it.

But I look at what I see happening out there and - if I go down your route - there are too many who are choosing to do pretty much what they want with the excuse of 'it's too complicated, I don't really understand'.  Well the government needs to kill that as an excuse, and get back to the sort of very simple message we had at the outset - a message that we all understood completely.  Because on the road we are on at the moment I fear that we are heading to a difficult place.

[EDIT]Just heard that Johnson agrees.  Message has to be as simple as possible.  So Hands, Face, Space.


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well many of the folks we saw sitting outside our local pub were not adhering to that.
		
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Down my route, explain. If this is happening report them, authorit have employed enforcement officers to deal with it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



*And many will be quick to blame the incumbent government* forgetting that a major part of our economy is hospitality which suffered some of the heaviest loses and required substantially assist fro the various government schemes.

While we as a nation prefere quantity over quality this will be a problem.
		
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That goes with the terroritory doesn’t it?  Anything bad happening during the period a party is in power they get the blame.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nothing to do with what I want to hear - I'm trying to understand them all - and it's a moving feast.  14% say they fully understand ALL of the rules - *in a poll* why would the 86% say that they don't understand all the rules if they did.  I understand some of the rules - I do not understand all of the rules for all different scenarios.  If you have listened to Hancock at all today you'll hear how on top of the rules and the rationale for them that he is.

I do not have any personal issue.  If I am not sure about what I can or cannot do in any coming scenario I might be involved in then I look it up - and if I don't like what I read then I don't do it.

But I look at what I see happening out there and - if I go down your route - *there are too many who are choosing to do pretty much what they want with the excuse of 'it's too complicated, I don't really understand'.*  Well the government needs to kill that as an excuse, and get back to the sort of very simple message we had at the outset - a message that we all understood completely.  Because on the road we are on at the moment I fear that we are heading to a difficult place.

[EDIT]Just heard that Johnson agrees.  Message has to be as simple as possible.  So Hands, Face, Space.
		
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This is getting frustrating. Read your bit in bold again ( just so you understand, I agree with what it says) . Because you wrote it, I suppose you agree with what it says.
It says that people understand but choose to ignore.
How is the government needing to kill that as an excuse.? It's a plain case of refusing to do something you know you should do. 
Saying the government need to do something is implying they haven't done all they should have done
( your favourite pastime).
The responsibility for" not doing what is needed", which is what you rightly describe in bold, - is that of the idiots being the _many who are choosing...etc._
No one else's, period.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 1, 2020)

Certain demographics are taking the attitude their social lives are more important than containing the virus and the rest of society has to share the burden of their actions.  Completely selfish but not unexpected.


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## Kellfire (Aug 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Certain demographics are taking the attitude their social lives are more important than containing the virus and the rest of society has to share the burden of their actions.  Completely selfish but not unexpected.
		
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I have friends who simply won’t comply with the guidance and it’s come close to causing massive arguments. When smart, educated people are buying into conspiracy theories you know times are crazy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 1, 2020)

There are issues with ALL age groups, yes, some worse than others and at times all have “out done” each other, but some of the behaviour is down to how the information related to the virus has been communicated by the various Governments around the World and the W.H.O. before and during this pandemic.


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## drdel (Aug 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I have friends who simply won’t comply with the guidance and it’s come close to causing massive arguments. When smart, educated people are buying into conspiracy theories you know times are crazy.
		
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I'm afraid I have friends  who refuse to take the restrictions on board. One is a MD of  medium size business, another's family is in the medical profession. Unbelievable!


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## Crumplezone (Aug 1, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			the Banking Crisis that wiped Labour's credibility with the electorate!
		
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Strange that really. Seeing as the global banking crisis was caused entirely by banks.


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## pendodave (Aug 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			When smart, educated people are buying into conspiracy theories you know times are crazy.
		
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When smart educated people look at scandanavian shaped elephants in the room, examine death rates for the last 3 months, consider the generational damage to public health, the economy, our culture and education bought upon us by the government's policies, perhaps you should think again, rather than dismissing them?


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## Kellfire (Aug 1, 2020)

pendodave said:



			When smart educated people look at scandanavian shaped elephants in the room, examine death rates for the last 3 months, consider the generational damage to public health, the economy, our culture and education bought upon us by the government's policies, perhaps you should think again, rather than dismissing them?
		
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Erm, what? I don’t get the point you’re making because the people I’m talking about certainly aren’t doing these things. They’re saying it’s a conspiracy to control us and that masks don’t work.


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## Beezerk (Aug 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm afraid I have friends  who refuse to take the restrictions on board. One is a MD of  medium size business, another's family is in the medical profession. Unbelievable!
		
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It's certainly strange, I have a mate who is an ex brain surgeon, now a GP, smartest man I know by a country mile, but he is so against the lockdown and facemasks it's unreal.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 1, 2020)

pendodave said:



			When smart educated people look at scandanavian shaped elephants in the room, examine death rates for the last 3 months, consider the generational damage to public health, the economy, our culture and education bought upon us by the government's policies, perhaps you should think again, rather than dismissing them?
		
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A lot of people can’t think for themselves , they need to be led, need arbitrary signs and guidance to follow. Like they all swallowed the blue pill of ignorance and just play along. 
95% of people that I saw at night didn’t wear a mask before the 24th July, now they’re giving themselves a hernia shouting “wear a damn mask” like the transmission of the virus has changed and is completely new. 

The government controlling things regarding masks seems way other the top though


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## Billysboots (Aug 1, 2020)

The below was posted on a local community social media page earlier today;

*Latest Government regulations: "If you test positive for coronavirus, or you have symptoms, you now need to self-isolate for 10 days rather than seven. The self-isolation period remains at 14 days for household members of a positive case, people contacted through NHS Test and Trace, and people returning to the UK from certain countries."
I don't know about you, but that sounds self-contradictory.*

Why is it that some people are _choosing_ to be so obtuse? It may just be me, but I have found the vast majority of Covid guidelines very straightforward. Simple to understand. And the above is as simple as can be. Not even remotely difficult to grasp.

I am starting to find the public response to the pandemic, in certain quarters at least, very tiresome.


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## Old Skier (Aug 1, 2020)

Two types of people, those wanting to understand and follow the guidelines and those who will find any excuse not to.

Simple.


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## Foxholer (Aug 1, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The below was posted on a local community social media page earlier today;

*Latest Government regulations: "If you test positive for coronavirus, or you have symptoms, you now need to self-isolate for 10 days rather than seven. The self-isolation period remains at 14 days for household members of a positive case, people contacted through NHS Test and Trace, and people returning to the UK from certain countries."
I don't know about you, but that sounds self-contradictory.*

Why is it that some people are _choosing_ to be so obtuse? It may just be me, but I have found the vast majority of Covid guidelines very straightforward. Simple to understand. And the above is as simple as can be. Not even remotely difficult to grasp.

I am starting to find the public response to the pandemic, in certain quarters at least, very tiresome.
		
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I can understand why some folk can find it 'self contradictory'. But I'd like to think that I understand the reasons. the 4 days 'extra' compared with those who _have_ tested positive is so that symptoms that haven't (yet) appeared can become apparent!


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## Foxholer (Aug 1, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			...
The government controlling things regarding masks seems way other the top though 

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Perhaps, but so bleeding what!
Just do it! At least until a vaccine is widely available!


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## Billysboots (Aug 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Two types of people, those wanting to understand and follow the guidelines and those who will find any excuse not to.

Simple.
		
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Spot on.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Two types of people, those wanting to understand and follow the guidelines and those who will find any excuse not to.

Simple.
		
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You could take that a step further and say those that don't follow guidelines will look to lay the blame elsewhere if something goes wrong


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## SocketRocket (Aug 1, 2020)

pendodave said:



			When smart educated people look at scandanavian shaped elephants in the room, examine death rates for the last 3 months, consider the generational damage to public health, the economy, our culture and education bought upon us by the government's policies, perhaps you should think again, rather than dismissing them?
		
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Does a Scandanavian Elephant have horns?


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## pendodave (Aug 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Does a Scandanavian Elephant have horns?
		
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 Not sure, but I don't think it wears a mask... ;-)


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 2, 2020)

Not political but an interesting point from a virologist on the news this morning. Approx 90% of transmissions happen within the family, hence why multiple households should not be mixing. Something to do with how you interact with family more closely, drop your guard I suspect. It shows how important it is to follow the guidelines still in terms of mixing and keeping distance.


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## Wolf (Aug 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Two types of people, those wanting to understand and follow the guidelines and those who will find any excuse not to.

Simple.
		
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Nailed it.... It doesn't matter the demographic of people it literally comes down to the simple fact some will follow because they care and want to do what's right, and others will find excuses not to because it hasn't affected them but when it does there will be excuses that it someone else's fault..


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The below was posted on a local community social media page earlier today;

*Latest Government regulations: "If you test positive for coronavirus, or you have symptoms, you now need to self-isolate for 10 days rather than seven. The self-isolation period remains at 14 days for household members of a positive case, people contacted through NHS Test and Trace, and people returning to the UK from certain countries."
I don't know about you, but that sounds self-contradictory.*

Why is it that some people are _choosing_ to be so obtuse? It may just be me, but I have found the vast majority of Covid guidelines very straightforward. Simple to understand. And the above is as simple as can be. Not even remotely difficult to grasp.

I am starting to find the public response to the pandemic, in certain quarters at least, very tiresome.
		
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Good post. Very good choice of wording. "Choosing to be so obtuse"  describes  exactly what is being done.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 2, 2020)

The government controlling things regarding masks seems way other the top though :ROFLMAO:[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			The reason for masks now is because the easing of SD, 1 metre rather than 2 etc, as in shops etc , is to offset the chances of transmission that are now greater because of being closer for longer periods.
When you were queuing 2 m apart , two in a shop max etc, people were not close for longish periods. Now, they are allowed to be.
		
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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Nailed it.... It doesn't matter the demographic of people it literally comes down to the simple fact some will follow because they care and want to do what's right, and others will find excuses not to because it hasn't affected them but when it does there will be excuses that it someone else's fault..
		
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The demographics are very important. There will of course be individuals in all demographics that care/dont care but IMO there are very large numbers of people in certain demographics that are acting irresponsible and the virus spikes are indicative of this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The demographics are very important. There will of course be individuals in all demographics that care/dont care but IMO there are very large numbers of people in certain demographics that are acting irresponsible and the virus spikes are indicative of this.
		
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Yes indeed - include the 20 or so individuals not really observing the rules sitting around tables outside a pub in largely 'White middle class’ and generally affluent town in Surrey.  No spiking in our area - but probably only because the virus isn't at a higher level in our community.  Which is worrying if it does become more prevalent as the behaviours we see are not great.

Lots of different demographics across the whole country are being careless...problems arise if the virus is significant in the community.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Does a Scandanavian Elephant have horns?
		
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Bleeding great long curly ones! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth#/media/File:MammothVsMastodon.jpg


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

A bit sweary, but rather amused me!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289337864170246144


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Bleeding great long curly ones! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth#/media/File:MammothVsMastodon.jpg

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They certainly had very large tusks but they weren't horns, they were wooly though and this does have a relationship to Sweden's Covid policy.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They certainly had very large tusks but they weren't horns, they were wooly though and this does have a relationship to Sweden's Covid policy.
		
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Yet it still has fewer Deaths/Million population than UK!
And Norway has way fewer than either!


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## drdel (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:




Yet it still has fewer Deaths/Million population than UK!
And Norway has way fewer than either!
		
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And the population  density is way lower than the UK.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			And the population  density is way lower than the UK.
		
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Another flawed 'throwaway' comment! That stat would be likely be relevant for 'Cases per Mill' - but not (directly) to Deaths/Million!
In Norway's case; perhaps, as both stats are significantly lower. But Sweden's (with twice the population of Norway) doesn't! 

But you are certainly making an argument for 'social distancing' and/or wearing of masks when SD is easily breached. .


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## Billysboots (Aug 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			And the population  density is way lower than the UK.
		
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The U.K. population has certainly proved itself to be dense.

Sorry. Couldn’t resist the temptation.


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## Mudball (Aug 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The U.K. population has certainly proved itself to be dense.

Sorry. Couldn’t resist the temptation.
		
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Atleast the govt guidelines are very clear....


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Atleast the govt guidelines are very clear....  






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And even then, when it explained so well, there are some who make out it's vague!!


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## Fade and Die (Aug 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes indeed - include the 20 or so individuals not really observing the rules sitting around tables outside a pub in largely '*White* middle class’ and generally affluent town in Surrey.  *No spiking in our area *- but probably only because the virus *isn't at a higher level in our community.*  Which is worrying if it does become more prevalent as the behaviours we see are not great.

*Lots of different demographics across the whole country* are being careless...*problems* arise if *the virus is significant in the community*.
		
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I get ya Hogie... nail on head👍... I just wish the politicians would have the courage to say what demographic is really at risk rather than tip-toeing around, worried they “might offend”  Tell the Fat, the old and the Bame they might have to go back into lockdown with full support via extended furlough and extra benefits and let the rest of the population get on with getting the country back on its feet.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Another flawed 'throwaway' comment! That stat would be likely be relevant for 'Cases per Mill' - but not (directly) to Deaths/Million!
In Norway's case; perhaps, as both stats are significantly lower. But Sweden's (with twice the population of Norway) doesn't!

But you are certainly making an argument for 'social distancing' and/or wearing of masks when SD is easily breached. .
		
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You cant compare by population alone,  density was what he suggested and that's a different matter. If you compare the population density of major cities in the UK compared to those in Scandinavia the UK will be many times bigger and you would expect the chances of virus spread to also be greater.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You cant compare by population alone,  density was what he suggested and that's a different matter. If you compare the population density of major cities in the UK compared to those in Scandinavia the UK will be many times bigger and you would expect the chances of virus spread to also be greater.
		
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I repeat for your apparent bias... or inability to read and understand!
That WOULD possibly/likely be appropriate for _Cases/Million_ population. But NOT (directly) to _Deaths/Million_!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I repeat for your apparent bias... or inability to read and understand!
That WOULD possibly/likely be appropriate for _Cases/Million_ population. But NOT (directly) to _Deaths/Million_!
		
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Calm down Dear 😄  Where did I day it was deaths per million, I said 'virus spread'  I'll put it down to your inability to read and uderstand 🙄


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Calm down Dear 😄  Where did I day it was deaths per million, I said 'virus spread'  I'll put it down to your inability to read and *uderstand* 🙄
		
Click to expand...

How many beers/wines did you have with lunch/supper? Re-read my original reply to your alter-ego 'one-line flawed comment-er' (post 5141).
I actually agree - at least to a certain extent - but you don't seem to u*n*derstand that¬

Re the bold bit....


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			How many beers/wines did you have with lunch/supper? Re-read my original reply to your alter-ego 'one-line flawed comment-er' (post 5141).
I actually agree - at least to a certain extent - but you don't seem to u*n*derstand that¬

Re the bold bit....

Click to expand...

I dont drink but you should take a breathalyser 😜  I didnt write the post you replied to in #5141 , either that or go to specsavers 🙄


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont drink but you should take a breathalyser 😜  I didnt write the post you replied to in #5141 , either that or go to specsavers 🙄
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

Come on then Foxy, did I write the post you commented on in #5141 ? 🤣🤣🤣
Re the typo, you're not reading my signature either 🙄


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then Foxy, did I write the post you commented on in #5141 ? 🤣🤣🤣
...
		
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Well, I did quote it in that post - but you apparently didn't bother to read it (properly)!


SocketRocket said:



			...
Re the typo, you're not reading my signature either 🙄
		
Click to expand...

And FWIW...Your sig that inludes 'I may have made some nit picking error here.' is actually a criticism of yourself, that I've noted but ignored, with some amusement, to date! Perhaps typically, badly phrased! I'd suggest 'nit-pickable' (suggesting others might nit-pick it) rather than 'nit-picking' which implies it's YOU THAT'S NIT-PICKING!

Any, enough of the 'personal criticism/abuse'! Let's get back to subject of the thread!


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## drdel (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Another flawed 'throwaway' comment! That stat would be likely be relevant for 'Cases per Mill' - but not (directly) to Deaths/Million!
In Norway's case; perhaps, as both stats are significantly lower. But Sweden's (with twice the population of Norway) doesn't!

But you are certainly making an argument for 'social distancing' and/or wearing of masks when SD is easily breached. .
		
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Another shoot the poster!

Population density and other factors of spatial epidemiology and demographics are key factors in the transmission rates of infectious diseases.

It is of course a fact that the more people that interact the probability of transmission rises.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
Population density and other factors of spatial epidemiology and demographics are key factors in the transmission rates of infectious diseases.

It is of course a fact that the more people that interact the probability of transmission rises.
		
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Ah, Socket's alter-ego chimes back in! with a 3-liner this time!
Kindly re-read the post you quoted!! Specifically, the 2nd sentence!
Btw. I agree - and even posted as much - in that same sentence!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Well, I did quote it in that post - but you apparently bother to read it (properly)!

And FWIW...Your sig that inludes 'I may have made some nit picking error here.' is actually a criticism of yourself, that I've noted but ignored, with some amusement, to date! Perhaps typically, badly phrased! I'd suggest 'nit-pickable' (suggesting others might nit-pick it) rather than 'nit-picking' which implies it's YOU THAT'S NIT-PICKING!

Any, enough of the 'personal criticism/abuse'! Let's get back to subject of the thread!
		
Click to expand...

🙄


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			🙄
		
Click to expand...

Ah! It's so important for you ego to have the last word isn't it it!
Perhaps you shou ld reflect on the fact  that 'the last word' is actually 'zzzzz'!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ah! It's so important for you ego to have the last word isn't it it!
Perhaps you shou ld reflect on the fact  that 'the last word' is actually 'zzzzz'!
		
Click to expand...

🙄


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## bobmac (Aug 3, 2020)

What was the question again?


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## bobmac (Aug 3, 2020)

-!


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 3, 2020)

Guys
Let’s be nice 

Ta muchly


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 3, 2020)




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## SocketRocket (Aug 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



View attachment 31848

Click to expand...

That's really silly.


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## Mudball (Aug 4, 2020)

Just reading the news that Testing *along Tracing *is going to be key to returning to school/normal life.   I thought the Govt convinced us that the Track & Trace app was no longer a priority... have a missed something in the weeks that i stopped looking at our spin doctors yarns


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 4, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Just reading the news that Testing *along Tracing *is going to be key to returning to school/normal life.   I thought the Govt convinced us that the Track & Trace app was no longer a priority... have a missed something in the weeks that i stopped looking at our spin doctors yarns
		
Click to expand...

I'm also not sure why this is news, it has always been the case since they first started talking about bringing kids back to school, the test and trace has to work really well.  It was one of the key requirements stated by the government at the time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 4, 2020)

Exam results day in Scotland seems to have gone off OK.
Before the results were announced many pupils perhaps wishing that they had been much nicer to their class teachers throughout the year.


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## Mudball (Aug 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm also not sure why this is news, it has always been the case since they first started talking about bringing kids back to school, the test and trace has to work really well.  It was one of the key requirements stated by the government at the time.
		
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Testing is working very well now.  As an NHS worker, HID was given priority for a drive in..  all worked smoothly.   

Where is Tracing? The app was the holy grail


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 4, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The U.K. population has certainly proved itself to be dense.

Sorry. Couldn’t resist the temptation.
		
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The UK population can't be dense as we are advised that it is intelligent enough to understand the myriad intricate complexities of international trade, partnerships and governance.  Sorry - couldn't resist the temptation either


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## drdel (Aug 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The UK population can't be dense as we are advised that it is intelligent enough to understand the myriad intricate complexities of international trade, partnerships and governance.  Sorry - couldn't resist the temptation either 

Click to expand...

And the vast majority of those making the decisions are intelligent and competent.


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## chrisd (Aug 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The UK population can't be dense as we are advised that it is intelligent enough to understand the myriad intricate complexities of international trade, partnerships and governance.  Sorry - couldn't resist the temptation either 

Click to expand...

The UK population look to have been lucky enough in their ignorance to have scooped the prize of not bailing out the EU coronavirus costs as well as a huge increase in the new budget 👍


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## drdel (Aug 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			The UK population look to have been lucky enough in their ignorance to have scooped the prize of not bailing out the EU coronavirus costs as well as a huge increase in the new budget 👍
		
Click to expand...

And UK has signed contracts for the supply of several vaccine options against COVID  19. The EU are still thinking about their procurement and distribution strategy.


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## Hobbit (Aug 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The UK population can't be dense as we are advised that it is intelligent enough to understand the myriad intricate complexities of international trade, partnerships and governance.  Sorry - couldn't resist the temptation either 

Click to expand...

Sometimes, even when you might think you’re right, you should just keep your hands in your pockets otherwise you just confirm what people think.


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## Old Skier (Aug 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The UK population can't be dense as we are advised that it is intelligent enough to understand the myriad intricate complexities of international trade, partnerships and governance.  Sorry - couldn't resist the temptation either 

Click to expand...

The vast majority are fine, it just appears there are a few dears who have a problem.


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## chrisd (Aug 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sometimes, even when you might think you’re right, you should just keep your hands in your pockets otherwise you just confirm what people think.

Click to expand...

Let's be honest Brian, we all know that in a couple of years he'll be all over Brexit and how good it's been - just in the same way he posted 10,000 times on dmd's, then eventually bought one - it's only a matter of time 😁


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			And UK has signed contracts for the supply of several vaccine options against COVID  19. The EU are still thinking about their procurement and distribution strategy.
		
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This government also signed contracts with a ferry company with only a few quid in the bank and no ships.
Plus contracts with some T&T companies that did not seem to have any idea what they should be doing.
Plus millions of pounds contracts going to companies without tendering.
Don't hold your breath.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			And UK has signed contracts for the supply of several vaccine options against COVID  19. The EU are still thinking about their procurement and distribution strategy.
		
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The EU has a massive advantage that it controls a medicine approval system, second only to FDA, and vaccines are included in it. The UK MHRA, which is not even properly revived yet, needs to get a move on, but is now a third tier system. The EU therefore can align EMA approval and review processes with procurement and take more time to evaluate a larger number of vaccine programmes, including agreements on faster approval where appropriate, rather than just lob money at a couple. The UK could have remained part of that EMA approval system and would therefore could have had the same vaccines approved here in parallel. The EU is taking a rational, considered and integrated approach to this.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The EU has a massive advantage that it controls a medicine approval system, second only to FDA, and vaccines are included in it. The UK MHRA, which is not even properly revived yet, needs to get a move on, but is now a third tier system. The EU therefore can align EMA approval and review processes with procurement and take more time to evaluate a larger number of vaccine programmes, including agreements on faster approval where appropriate, rather than just lob money at a couple. The UK could have remained part of that EMA approval system and would therefore could have had the same vaccines approved here in parallel. The EU is taking a rational, considered and integrated approach to this.
		
Click to expand...

Was there a specific reason for EMA taking nearly a month longer than UK to approve the use of remdesivir?


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Was there a specific reason for EMA taking nearly a month longer than UK to approve the use of remdesivir?
		
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I'm not sure that is the case. Remdesivir has been available under a named patient program (aka early access to medicines scheme) in the jurisdiction of the EMA (including the UK) for the last 5 years for Ebola. The EMA expanded their scientific advice in April to include certain presentations of Covid. The MHRA did so in May. The EMA has gone on to a conditional marketing approval which is a step further than an early access scheme. 

Remedsivir has a modest but important effect on time to recovery, so in my opinion the approval was reasonable for the benefit and risk seen and the process conducted very quickly. The EMA is a good and rational regulator. Ironically the MHRA used to have a huge influence on it and helped develop many of the procedures used, before being forced to drop out entirely.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 5, 2020)

It generally is not so great.... I do like crowd less football though, reduces the racist abuse to just the pitch. 
Beaches are going to be packed from Friday onwards as the temperature will be high, will be interesting to see what the plan is.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I'm not sure that is the case. Remdesivir has been available under a named patient program (aka early access to medicines scheme) in the jurisdiction of the EMA (including the UK) for the last 5 years for Ebola. The EMA expanded their scientific advice in April to include certain presentations of Covid. The MHRA did so in May. The EMA has gone on to a conditional marketing approval which is a step further than an early access scheme.

Remedsivir has a modest but important effect on time to recovery, so in my opinion the approval was reasonable for the benefit and risk seen and the process conducted very quickly. The EMA is a good and rational regulator. Ironically the MHRA used to have a huge influence on it and helped develop many of the procedures used, before being forced to drop out entirely.
		
Click to expand...

I may be wrong but I seem to remember it being approved for  certain  cases in the UK from 26 May but similar approval in Europe didn't come until 20 June.

I wondered if there had been  some specific doubts with the treatment.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I may be wrong but I seem to remember it being approved for  certain  cases in the UK from 26 May but similar approval in Europe didn't come until 20 June.

I wondered if there had been some specific doubts with the treatment.
		
Click to expand...

The EMA advice to add it to the existing Early Access Programme was made in April and extended in May, with MHRA doing the same in late May, but the 20th June thing was EMA Conditional Marketing Approval. Under Early Access (in either the EU or UK), drug can only be supplied for a specific named patient, but under a Conditional Marketing Approval, it can be supplied to any patient as determined by the prescribing doctor. 

I think it is a good drug, with a proven effect on duration of hospital stay. Not a magic bullet, though. The speed of approvals in the EU and UK were both much faster than normal.


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## Mudball (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I'm not sure that is the case. Remdesivir has been available under a named patient program (aka early access to medicines scheme) in the jurisdiction of the EMA (including the UK) for the last 5 years for Ebola. The EMA expanded their scientific advice in April to include certain presentations of Covid. The MHRA did so in May. The EMA has gone on to a conditional marketing approval which is a step further than an early access scheme.

Remedsivir has a modest but important effect on time to recovery, so in my opinion the approval was reasonable for the benefit and risk seen and the process conducted very quickly. The EMA is a good and rational regulator. Ironically the MHRA used to have a huge influence on it and helped develop many of the procedures used, before being forced to drop out entirely.
		
Click to expand...


Some might say you are talking down the UK with all these rational nonsense...    We have left and we will take time as deemed appropriate for our country


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Some might say you are talking down the UK with all these rational nonsense...    We have left and we will take time as deemed appropriate for our country
		
Click to expand...

Well, there was no necessity to leave the EMA with Brexit. We will certainly take time, perhaps an extra year or two to get some new medicines and fewer clinical trials in the NHS since it is no longer relevant to EMA approval.


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## DanFST (Aug 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Was there a specific reason for EMA taking nearly a month longer than UK to approve the use of remdesivir?
		
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Too busy losing a half a billion pound court case trying to sue Canary Wharf!


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Too busy losing a half a billion pound court case trying to sue Canary Wharf!
		
Click to expand...

As you well know, that had nothing to do with approval times, and as I have pointed out, there was no delay anyhow.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 6, 2020)

Frightening if true.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291244082145177600


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Frightening if true.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291244082145177600

Click to expand...

Wow that seems like pretty serious cronyism to me.
Trouble is that the Tory Government has voted in laws to allow them to do this.


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## patricks148 (Aug 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Frightening if true.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291244082145177600

Click to expand...

leveling up


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Frightening if true.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291244082145177600

Click to expand...

Taking care of business. And their own.  Twas always the way and always will be.


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## Kaz (Aug 6, 2020)

Cases rising. Government corrupt and incompetent. Cool, cool.


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2020)

There are a number of these, and some more in the ventilator procurement process too. Never let a crisis go to waste, as they say.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Cases rising. Government corrupt and incompetent. Cool, cool.
		
Click to expand...

Well, enough about Scotland!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wow that seems like pretty serious cronyism to me.
Trouble is that the Tory Government has voted in laws to allow them to do this.
		
Click to expand...




patricks148 said:



			leveling up

Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			Taking care of business. And their own.  Twas always the way and always will be.
		
Click to expand...




Kaz said:



			Cases rising. Government corrupt and incompetent. Cool, cool.
		
Click to expand...




Ethan said:



			There are a number of these, and some more in the ventilator procurement process too. Never let a crisis go to waste, as they say.
		
Click to expand...

That's what we want to hear, some nice balanced views..   Oh dear dear deary me, Ha haa, oh dear 🤣🤣🤣


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's what we want to hear, some nice balanced views..   Oh dear dear deary me, Ha haa, oh dear 🤣🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Or just ignore what was posted and play the posters!

Why don’t you give the “nice balanced views” that you believe must be missing.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Or just ignore what was posted and play the posters!

Why don’t you give the “nice balanced views” that you believe must be missing.

Click to expand...

Oh the irony, I can hear the bile bubbling 😀


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh the irony, I can hear the bile bubbling 😀
		
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Once again it proves you’re a troll, you get the chance to put a sensible point of view over and instead you try and play me.

Sad man.


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## DanFST (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's what we want to hear, some nice balanced views..
		
Click to expand...

They ain't wrong to be fair.


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's what we want to hear, some nice balanced views..   Oh dear dear deary me, Ha haa, oh dear 🤣🤣🤣
		
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We naive fools clearly just get it, why a massive contract for PPE is handed without tendering to a company which has never made, imported or sourced a scrap of PPE in the short time it has existed, since being created by a political ally. Please enlighten us.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's what we want to hear, some nice balanced views..   Oh dear dear deary me, Ha haa, oh dear 🤣🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Take your head out your own rectum.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2020)

Someone clear this up for me.  I am not saying I believe any of the following - however...

We are making very significant economic and impacting decisions based upon levels of positive cases picked up through testing.   As we are testing a lot more we are picking up a lot more positive cases.  Many of these positive cases could be false positives as the level of the virus (if it is there) may be at a very low level in an individual.  If the virus is at a very low level in an individual it is very unlikely to be shed and infect others.  So we look to a test that only indicates a positive infection if there is a significant level of infection - significant being a level that will present a risk of infection of others.  I have heard that there are such antigen tests available that can provide a result as quickly as a pregnancy test. 

The logic then goes that as we are only really interested in individuals who have the virus at a level that is transmittable, then that 'less sensitive' test is, in fact, what we want.  And as it is so quick and inexpensive we can potentially take the test daily.  And as positives with the test are 'real' and 'dangerous', these individuals isolate, and contacts traced.  And we do not react and make significant decisions based upon numbers of positives that could either be false positives or not significant and 'dangerous'.

To be knocked down.  Tell me where the logic fails.


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## GB72 (Aug 6, 2020)

I can only comment on things as I see them and I was impressed with some swift action where I work in Melton. Earlier in the week, results were showing that cases here may be spiking (OK not massive figures but an increase from 4 to 16 cases) and there was concern over a food plant. Anyway, only a few days later and the car park that I normally use is now a covid testing site. That all happened very quickly.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Take your head out your own rectum.....
		
Click to expand...

😰


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:





SocketRocket said:





Doon frae Troon said:



			Wow that seems like pretty serious cronyism to me.
Trouble is that the Tory Government has voted in laws to allow them to do this.
		
Click to expand...

...
That's what we want to hear, some nice balanced views..   Oh dear dear deary me, Ha haa, oh dear 🤣🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Or just ignore what was posted and play the posters!

Why don’t you give the “nice balanced views” that you believe must be missing.

Click to expand...

Indeed...Demonstrate that they are wrong!

I don't believe even you alter-egor is likely to be able to use his vague half-truths to explain such 'opportunistic exploitation', if not simple cronyism, that appears to have had attempts to hide the connections! Where's 'the Press' and its investigative journalism?


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Someone clear this up for me.  I am not saying I believe any of the following - however...

We are making very significant economic and impacting decisions based upon levels of positive cases picked up through testing.   As we are testing a lot more we are picking up a lot more positive cases.  Many of these positive cases could be false positives as the level of the virus (if it is there) may be at a very low level in an individual.  If the virus is at a very low level in an individual it is very unlikely to be shed and infect others.  So we look to a test that only indicates a positive infection if there is a significant level of infection - significant being a level that will present a risk of infection of others.  I have heard that there are such antigen tests available that can provide a result as quickly as a pregnancy test.

The logic then goes that as we are only really interested in individuals who have the virus at a level that is transmittable, then that 'less sensitive' test is, in fact, what we want.  And as it is so quick and inexpensive we can potentially take the test daily.  And as positives with the test are 'real' and 'dangerous', these individuals isolate, and contacts traced.  And we do not react and make significant decisions based upon numbers of positives that could either be false positives or not significant and 'dangerous'.

To be knocked down.  Tell me where the logic fails.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think the issue is a quantitative one, so lets assume that people either have or do not have the virus, and the test either reads positive or negative. All tests have accuracy measures called sensitivity and specificity. Sensitivity is the likelihood that you will correctly identify a positive case (true positive rate), specificity the true negative rate. These tend to trade off. If you want greater of one, you usually have to settle for less of the other, because you make such changes by adjusting the cutoff for a positive test.

So lets say you have a test with 99% sensitivity and specificity. That is pretty good.

Example 1: In the general population  the current prevalence of Covid is low, say 1 in 1000 people, and you test 100000 people, you will get the following results:


99 people who have the virus and test positive. (true positive), i.e. 99% sensitivity for the 100 actual cases
1 case that has the virus but tests negative (false negative, the missing 1% of sensitivity among 100 cases)
999 people who don't have the virus who test positive (false positive) - 1% of the (100,000-100) who do not have the virus
98,901 who do not have the virus and test negative (true negative)

So 1000 people (false negative and positive) have got an inaccurate result and the ratio of false positive to true positive is 10 to 1. If I was an asymptomatic person in a low prevalence population randomly tested and found to be positive, I would therefore assume the overwhelming likelihood is a false positive.

The main driver of this seemingly weird result is the overwhelming number who do not have the virus, and 1% of a very big number is a big number.

Example 2: Repeat the exercise with a prevalence of 1 in 10, and those results change dramatically. In 100,000 people with a prevalence of 1 in 10:

9,900 true positive
100 false negative
900 false positive
89,100 true negative

So 1000 people have still got an inaccurate result but the ratio of false positive to true positive has now flipped to less than 1 in 10. Nothing has changed except the prevalence of the virus.

All of this suggests that testing is more informative when the prevalence is huge and we should therefore actively test high risk populations. This includes close contacts of known cases, and it is a scandal such people are not tested as part of Test and Trace.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Someone clear this up for me.  I am not saying I believe any of the following - however...

We are making very significant economic and impacting decisions based upon levels of positive cases picked up through testing.   As we are testing a lot more we are picking up a lot more positive cases.  Many of these positive cases could be false positives as the level of the virus (if it is there) may be at a very low level in an individual.  If the virus is at a very low level in an individual it is very unlikely to be shed and infect others.  So we look to a test that only indicates a positive infection if there is a significant level of infection - significant being a level that will present a risk of infection of others.  I have heard that there are such antigen tests available that can provide a result as quickly as a pregnancy test.

The logic then goes that as we are only really interested in individuals who have the virus at a level that is transmittable, then that 'less sensitive' test is, in fact, what we want.  And as it is so quick and inexpensive we can potentially take the test daily.  And as positives with the test are 'real' and 'dangerous', these individuals isolate, and contacts traced.  And we do not react and make significant decisions based upon numbers of positives that could either be false positives or not significant and 'dangerous'.

To be knocked down.  Tell me where the logic fails.
		
Click to expand...

Positive is Positive (provided not a 'false positive' which can only be determined by a re-test! And ignoring low level infection is very dangerous! Again, isolation (perhaps for a shorter time) and re-testing seems, to me, the 'proper' consequence of such a test. The 'current low-level infection' could well simply be because the victim has only recently been infected!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Positive is Positive (provided not a 'false positive' which can only be determined by a re-test! And *ignoring low level infection is very dangerous! *Again, isolation (perhaps for a shorter time) and re-testing seems, to me, the 'proper' consequence of such a test. The 'current low-level infection' could well simply be because the victim has only recently been infected!
		
Click to expand...

Going to take some time ingesting and understanding @Ethan's post .

But on *this *- the logic is that very low level of infection _could_ be ignored - or we don't focus solely upon trying to detect it.

When the infection is at a very low level, the assertion is that it would not present a threat of infection of others as the virus is not shed at very low levels of infection (I do not know if that is true).  The logic goes on that if you can use a very regular (daily?), but less sensitive test, then you will catch individuals positive with infection at a transmittable level as soon as it gets to that level in the individual.  This is based upon there being a test that does not detect low levels of the virus and/or generate false positives - but is generally correct in a positive identification when the infection reaches an infectious level - and that will provide results as quickly as a pregnancy test.  And so the testing spots individuals pretty much as soon as they become, or get close to becoming, infectious.

I am not arguing this - I guess I am putting up a strawman...


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Going to take some time ingesting and understanding @Ethan's post .

But on *this *- the logic is that very low level of infection _could_ be ignored.

When the infection is at a very low level, the assertion is that it would not present a threat of infection of others as the virus is not shed at very low levels of infection (I do not know if that is true).  The logic goes on that if you can use a very regular (daily?), but less sensitive test, then you will catch individuals positive with infection at a transmittable level as soon as it gets to that level in the individual.  This is based upon there being a test that does not detect low levels of the virus and/or generate false positives - but is generally correct in a positive identification when the infection reaches an infectious level - and that will provide results as quickly as a pregnancy test.  And so the testing spots individuals pretty much as soon as they become, or get close to becoming, infectious.
		
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I would say that the logic is that testing should prioritise risk. If you have limited bandwidth, test those at greatest risk - symptomatics, obvs, close contacts of known cases, NHS, care staff, etc. Then if you have additional bandwidth, test more widely. Some of the testing error inherent in imperfect tests are forgiven by repeat testing.

I am not sure we know that low levels of shedding are less likely to lead to transmission, because it is may be more a probability thing than a dose thing. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it may not take all that much virus to infect you. I am also not sure we know that the severity of the illness is proportional to viral load, except at very high levels of viral load, e.g. when a NHS worker gets coughed in the face by someone with active disease.

I think it is very unwise to ignore mild or asymptomatic disease. It is pretty likely that most of the disease around the UK came for people with few or no symptoms coming into the country and transmitting it to others who showed few symptoms at first but transmitted it around the country.


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## Mudball (Aug 6, 2020)

Ethan said:



			We naive fools clearly just get it, why a massive contract for PPE is handed without tendering to a company which has never made, imported or sourced a scrap of PPE in the short time it has existed, since being created by a political ally. Please enlighten us.
		
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Is this the same group in cabinet that awarded Ferry contracts to someone who never ferried things before or provided planning permission to someone before the rule changes applied.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 6, 2020)

Just gets worse!
Coronavirus: Safety concerns halt use of 50 million NHS masks https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53672841


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Is this the same group in cabinet that awarded Ferry contracts to someone who never ferried things before or provided planning permission to someone before the rule changes applied.
		
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And ventilator contracts to companies who had never made ventilators, then made them not up to spec, a tech company owned by Cummings mate who made an app which didn't work ........


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 6, 2020)

Dodgy deals and back handers in the midst of a crisis, wow would never have thought it! 
Can’t wait for the scandal documentaries in a couple of years. 

“Loose change - COVID-19” August 2022


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 6, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Dodgy deals and back handers in the midst of a crisis, wow would never have thought it! 
Can’t wait for the scandal documentaries in a couple of years.

“Loose change - COVID-19” August 2022
		
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So you’re suggesting it’s a non-story?


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So you’re suggesting it’s a non-story?
		
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No I’m suggesting it’s an expected story with much more to come and I’ll wait with my tin foil hat on in a faraday cage hiding from 5g.


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## Kaz (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's what we want to hear, some nice balanced views..   Oh dear dear deary me, Ha haa, oh dear 🤣🤣🤣
		
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This forum needs an anchor emoji.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I would say that the logic is that testing should prioritise risk. If you have limited bandwidth, test those at greatest risk - symptomatics, obvs, close contacts of known cases, NHS, care staff, etc. Then if you have additional bandwidth, test more widely. Some of the testing error inherent in imperfect tests are forgiven by repeat testing.

I am not sure we know that low levels of shedding are less likely to lead to transmission, because it is may be more a probability thing than a dose thing. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it may not take all that much virus to infect you. I am also not sure we know that the severity of the illness is proportional to viral load, except at very high levels of viral load, e.g. when a NHS worker gets coughed in the face by someone with active disease.

I think it is very unwise to ignore mild or asymptomatic disease. It is pretty likely that most of the disease around the UK came for people with few or no symptoms coming into the country and transmitting it to others who showed few symptoms at first but transmitted it around the country.
		
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I don't disagree - but is the logic of what I have outlined flawed.

I simply ask as I heard this outlined with total certainty yesterday by an individual who claimed to have a background that qualified him to put it forward.  He also claimed that the test is available now.  

His argument was based upon his assertions that 1) individuals with very low levels of infection are very unlikely to infect another and so we do not need to know of, or worry about, them 2) a test sensitive to detecting significant levels of the virus (but not sensitive enough for lower levels) is available now, and that test can be take daily with results almost immediate. 3) A daily test would ensure that those missed by the test when the virus was at the lower level would be picked up as soon as the level became 'dangerous' to others.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed...Demonstrate that they are wrong!

I don't believe even you alter-egor is likely to be able to use his vague half-truths to explain such 'opportunistic exploitation', if not simple cronyism, that appears to have had attempts to hide the connections! Where's 'the Press' and its investigative journalism?
		
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I didnt suggest anyone was wrong, I was rather amused by the lack of balance and amount of bile in a number of posts.  There may well have been some poor procurement and even old boy dealing, no doubt we will find out but it's so 'ground hog day' to see the same old gang reaching for their pitchforks.  As to my suggested 'alter-ego' that you keep harping on about , why dont you try adopting one, I mean it would have to be an improvement.


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## drdel (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I didnt suggest anyone was wrong, I was rather amused by the lack of balance and amount of bile in a number of posts.  There may well have been some poor procurement and even old boy dealing, no doubt we will find out but it's so 'ground hog day' to see the same old gang reaching for their pitchforks.  As to my suggested 'alter-ego' that you keep harping on about , why dont you try adopting one, I mean it would have to be an improvement.
		
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Their eyes are blind to the personal fortunes of the union leaders and others on the left.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			This forum needs an anchor emoji.
		
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Oh! You wound my heart 🙄
An anchor is the sign of Hope, one of the three human virtues.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			...but it's so 'ground hog day' to see the same old gang reaching for their pitchforks....
		
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Indeed! But the same applies across the political spectrum! 


SocketRocket said:



			...As to my suggested 'alter-ego' that you keep harping on about...
		
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drdel said:



			Their eyes are blind to the personal fortunes of the union leaders and others on the left.
		
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QED! Times 2!


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 6, 2020)

Although we are in the middle of a global pandemic, economic crisis and probably the greatest test of a government in decades, I for one am ignoring their current government incompetence and cronyism as I vote Tory and the unions have also done something vaguely similar in the past. All evens up in the end.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Although we are in the middle of a global pandemic, economic crisis and probably the greatest test of a government in decades, I for one am ignoring their current government incompetence and cronyism as I vote Tory and the unions have also done something vaguely similar in the past. All evens up in the end.
		
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Yup - divert to the unions.

Meanwhile we learn of more £millions spent on masks not fit for use in the NHS...

Let;'s see how that can be diverted onto Labour or the Unions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53672841

Oh yes - our Test & Trace system - World Beating - according to our PM today - as officials in the department and the boss of Serco say it's got a way to go - and as the number of 2nd tier contacts made falls.  Why should I believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

Meanwhile the Tory-boys will form the wagons into a circle and defend very stoutly the whole sorry shower.


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			His argument was based upon his assertions that 1) individuals with very low levels of infection are very unlikely to infect another and so we do not need to know of, or worry about, them 2) a test sensitive to detecting significant levels of the virus (but not sensitive enough for lower levels) is available now, and that test can be take daily with results almost immediate. 3) A daily test would ensure that those missed by the test when the virus was at the lower level would be picked up as soon as the level became 'dangerous' to others.
		
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In terms of his arguments:

1. I disagree that we do not need to know about such people. We can't really quantify what low levels of infection are. Perhaps the sample of saliva or snot did not have a lot of virus, but viral load will vary from sample to sample, with time as the infection develops or wanes and may vary around the body. The saliva may have little virus but exhaled air and mucus may have more. We don't know that transmissibility is correlated with viral load - symptomatology isn't. 

2. The tests are reasonably sensitive at present. I think that ignoring or engineering out low levels of viral load would require the issues in 1 to be really nailed down.

3. I agree that frequent serial testing is good and would improve our understanding of the risk, but it is a very substantial logistical demand if many are included.


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## drdel (Aug 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - divert to the unions.

Meanwhile we learn of more £millions spent on masks not fit for use in the NHS...

Let;'s see how that can be diverted onto Labour or the Unions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53672841

Oh yes - our Test & Trace system - World Beating - according to our PM today - as officials in the department and the boss of Serco say it's got a way to go - and as the number of 2nd tier contacts made falls.  Why should I believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

Meanwhile the Tory-boys will form the wagons into a circle and defend very stoutly the whole sorry shower.
		
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You may wish to know nobody in government specified these masks. The independent test discovered that some of the 'over the ear' were not satisfactory in certain NHS settings.

If you look at the masked used by other nations you will see the majority are 'over the ear' often supplemented by a face shield.

IMO your 'Tory boy' comment merely demonstrates childishness.


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## Billysboots (Aug 6, 2020)

You know, it really is long overdue that our glorious press started to add some context to their reporting. I’m sure I’m not alone in getting very tired of seeing numbers with no story behind them. 

All we have heard is that cases are on the rise, the second wave is coming, blah, blah. Well, here’s some context which nobody in the scaremongering press seems to want to share. Leicester has seen such a high infection rate that the city has been subject of an extended lockdown. The numbers are frightening. Well, in isolation they are.

But, for all the scaremongering, how many patients are currently in the county’s hospitals having tested positive for COVID-19? Just *eighteen. *And of those eighteen, how many do you think are in ICU? *Three.*

Deaths continue to fall. Hospitalisations continue to fall. Could it be, perhaps, that mass targeted testing is capturing higher numbers of positive tests? Could it? Maybe the actual infection rate is the same, or even lower, than it was in March and April, but our massively increased testing capacity suggests otherwise.

Come on, press hacks. Get off your lazy backsides and do some investigation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			You may wish to know nobody in government specified these masks. The independent test discovered that some of the 'over the ear' were not satisfactory in certain NHS settings.

If you look at the masked used by other nations you will see the majority are 'over the ear' often supplemented by a face shield.

IMO your 'Tory boy' comment merely demonstrates childishness.
		
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My understanding is that Ayanda ordered them based upon a specification provided to them by the government.

_Tim Horlick, CEO of Ayanda Capital, has insisted the masks are not unsafe or unusable, adding that none of his company’s products have ever been rejected by DHSC for any reason: “The masks met all Government specifications and standards, the masks are not unusable or unsafe and the Government has not wasted any money in purchasing these masks.” _

BTW - I am not the only poster on here to refer to _Tory-Boys_ when the wagons are circled - but you choose to attack me?  Whatever...maybe I am a _snowflake _but I don't get upset about it...and I don't criticise those who use it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 6, 2020)

I never though I would see a Forum that produces more thin whataboutary than Pie and Bovril.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			You may wish to know nobody in government specified these masks. The independent test discovered that some of the 'over the ear' were not satisfactory in certain NHS settings.

If you look at the masked used by other nations you will see the majority are 'over the ear' often supplemented by a face shield.

IMO your 'Tory boy' comment merely demonstrates childishness.
		
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So are you saying this *excerpt from a BBC report* is bollocks?

'Fifty million face masks bought by the UK government in April will not be used in the NHS because of safety concerns.
The government says the masks, which use ear-loop fastenings rather than head loops, may not fit tightly enough.
They were bought for NHS England healthcare workers from supplier Ayanda Capital as part of a £252m contract.
*Ayanda says the masks met the specifications No 10 had set out*. The PM said he was "_disappointed_" that any protective kit should be unfit for use.'

I would consider '_disappointed_' as a serious understatement!
Seems an expensive blunder in specs imo!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So are you saying this *excerpt from a BBC report* is bollocks?

'Fifty million face masks bought by the UK government in April will not be used in the NHS because of safety concerns.
The government says the masks, which use ear-loop fastenings rather than head loops, may not fit tightly enough.
They were bought for NHS England healthcare workers from supplier Ayanda Capital as part of a £252m contract.
*Ayanda says the masks met the specifications No 10 had set out*. The PM said he was "_disappointed_" that any protective kit should be unfit for use.'

I would consider '_disappointed_' as a serious understatement!
Seems an expensive blunder in specs imo!
		
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Do you believe No 10 set out the specifications. Really!


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you believe No 10 set out the specifications. Really!
		
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Well if not, somebody's lying!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Well if not, somebody's lying!
		
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Are there actually people working in No 10 who make specifications for equipment, they must have a lot of people working there.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 6, 2020)

What really gets my goat in this is the term  "world beating" 

For example "world beating track and trace app" 

Why do we as Brits have to top people? Just get one that blooming works 

I don't care if you pay someone else to use their app idea just get a working system 

Doesn't need to beat the rest

Just match them


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Are there actually people working in No 10 who make specifications for equipment, they must have a lot of people working there.
		
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I think he’s sensible enough to know that the specs would have been given to No 10 by some so called expert even though he’s playing dumb.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Their eyes are blind to the personal fortunes of the union leaders and others on the left.
		
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This has to be the worst post you ever posted on this thread.
I posted the link and 6 people comment on it, straight away the tory apologist comes along gets called out and instead of condemning it, regardless of political affiliation and whose in Government it’s a disgrace, you agree with the nonsense posted in who you responded to and deflect it it on to us posters and the Unions!

How about discussing/posting on the subject instead of going for the “left” comment, especially when you get so precious when people label you as a tory.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think he’s sensible enough to know that the specs would have been given to No 10 by some so called expert even though he’s playing dumb.
		
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If it’s supplied by No10, then it is issued with No10 authority and they have responsibility.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Are there actually people working in No 10 who make specifications for equipment, they must have a lot of people working there.
		
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I don't care! Either #10 made the specs (like you, I doubt it), they approved the specs (far more likely), or the company (apparently closely associated with #10) providing the PPE is lying! Your choice!


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If it’s supplied by No10, then it is issued with No10 authority and they have responsibility.
		
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Agreed, perhaps they should seriously look at the person giving them the specs


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I don't care! Either #10 made the specs (like you, I doubt it), they approved the specs (far more likely), or the company (apparently closely associated with #10) providing the PPE is lying! Your choice!
		
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Or, people in the NHS made the specs, someone in the NHS procurement ordered it and someone signed it off for the government.  There will be Government procedures that will allow certain procurement methods to be shortcut where the purchase is for equipment to cope with emergency measures. Unfortunatly speeding up such systems do open things up for errors, but when needs must.


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2020)

The MHRA, medicines and healthcare regulatory agency, determines the spec for medicines and medical devices are acceptably safe for use by healthcare professionals. Its a dept within the Dept of Health and Social Care. No product is authorised for use until its been across their desk. 

The PPE ordered by NHS Procurement will have long since(years) had its spec approved by the MHRA. That spec will have been in the tender to supply.

However, there's a number of questions that need answering over this order, one of which is more to do with best price. There are laws about which companies are awarded contracts of this magnitude. How the hell did an equity company with no previous experience of ordering medical equipment get awarded this contract? There is a tendering process, and I can't remember its name, which sees all tenders over a certain value advertised in a European Journal, but the UK is out of Europe. I sincerely hope that process hasn't been dropped! How come only one company replied? When did this company get onto the 'preferred supplier's list?' A significant number of equity companies operate in this field - where were they? The £50m order will be paid for over a period of years, hence buying through an equity company.


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## huds1475 (Aug 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There is a tendering process, and I can't remember its name, which sees all tenders over a certain value advertised in a European Journal,
		
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Not sure its a process,  just public sector contracts > some theshold have to be published in the OJEU?

Been a while since I've been involved commercially in a meaty public sector procurement so memory a bit hazy too!!


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Not sure its a process,  just public sector contracts > some theshold have to be published in the OJEU?

Been a while since I've been involved commercially in a meaty public sector procurement so memory a bit hazy too!!
		
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Got it! OJEC.


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## Mudball (Aug 7, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Dodgy deals and back handers in the midst of a crisis, wow would never have thought it! 
Can’t wait for the scandal documentaries in a couple of years.

“Loose change - COVID-19” August 2022
		
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I rather prefer the titles

*"Covid 19 UnMasked - Lies, Bribes and Incompetence" *Aug 2022


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Are there actually people working in No 10 who make specifications for equipment, they must have a lot of people working there.
		
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Almost certainly not. But nobody stated there was. Seems like you've misinterpreted some of the text n the article (actually, easily done in this case)! Try reading it again! Hint...Put a larger gap between 'had' and 'set out'!


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## Ethan (Aug 7, 2020)

Well, if a contract is agreed for the provision of equipment, presumably the contract says something about the requirements. That any company would consider just heading off and ordering stuff to find it is the wrong stuff is evidence that the company should never have had a contract in the first place. Any responsible company with a clue would agree the precise specs, and any responsible organisation issuing such a contract would have provided them. Sounds like a bake off to determine which party was the most incompetent and reckless.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you believe No 10 set out the specifications. Really!
		
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Foxholer said:



*Well if not, somebody's lying!*

Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Are there actually people working in No 10 who make specifications for equipment, they must have a lot of people working there.
		
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Foxholer said:



*Almost certainly not. But nobody stated there was.* Seems like you've misinterpreted some of the text n the article (actually, easily done in this case)! Try reading it again! Hint...Put a larger gap between 'had' and 'set out'!
		
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Get your act together. Either No 10 made the spec or they didnt!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 7, 2020)

Classic example of a tory mindset of deflect and blame someone else.

Well done Andy Burnham.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1291492604811644928


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Get your act together. Either No 10 made the spec or they didnt!
		
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Where did anyone say No 10 made the spec?
Re-read post 5242 - particularly my explanation of how that report could be misinterpreted!


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## drdel (Aug 7, 2020)

))0


Ethan said:



			Well, if a contract is agreed for the provision of equipment, presumably the contract says something about the requirements. That any company would consider just heading off and ordering stuff to find it is the wrong stuff is evidence that the company should never have had a contract in the first place. Any responsible company with a clue would agree the precise specs, and any responsible organisation issuing such a contract would have provided them. Sounds like a bake off to determine which party was the most incompetent and reckless.
		
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The company says they supplied the item specified by NHS medics.


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## Ethan (Aug 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			))0


The company says they supplied the item specified by NHS medics.
		
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Cool. I am sure paperwork or pixels exist to verify it. 

I am sure you agree it does seem odd spending such a lot of money on companies with no prior experience in supplying these sorts of goods and in some cases next to no infrastructure or staffing.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 7, 2020)




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## Ethan (Aug 7, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 31909

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In reality, there are few medical conditions where wearing a mask is a genuine problem. Some autistic kids have a sensitivity to wearing one, but asthmatics and people with chest disease experience exactly 0% reduction in oxygenation with a mask. In fact the mask may help asthmatics by filtering allergens. 

But more importantly, the mask is for the protection of others. It is one thing to decide you will accept a risk, quite another for you to decide others should accept one from you.


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## drdel (Aug 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Cool. I am sure paperwork or pixels exist to verify it.

I am sure you agree it does seem odd spending such a lot of money on companies with no prior experience in supplying these sorts of goods and in some cases next to no infrastructure or staffing.
		
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Yup a practise carried out over a few decades of GOCO etc by  UK Governments of various colours, including the devolved administrations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Are there actually people working in No 10 who make specifications for equipment, they must have a lot of people working there.
		
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Lot's of folk working in the Cabinet Office - tasked with delivering core government public policy.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Lot's of folk working in the Cabinet Office - tasked with delivering core government public policy.
		
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That's not what I asked.


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## bobmac (Aug 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile we learn of more £millions spent on masks not fit for use in the NHS...
		
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The headline reads....
Safety concerns halt use of 50 million NHS masks

Where does it say not fit for use?
I gave blood this morning and all the nursing staff were wearing the over ear masks.
The two nurses I spoke to had no problems with their masks and neither had heard about any concerns


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## Kaz (Aug 7, 2020)

Getting a bit annoyed at the SNP increasingly using the daily Covid briefing to agitate for more constitutional reform. Really don’t think it’s the time and certainly not the place for that sort of politicking.


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The headline reads....
Safety concerns halt use of 50 million NHS masks

Where does it say not fit for use?
I gave blood this morning and all the nursing staff were wearing the over ear masks.
The two nurses I spoke to had no problems with their masks and neither had heard about any concerns
		
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Er...Here! As in SILH's post you quoted!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53672841


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Getting a bit annoyed at the SNP increasingly using the daily Covid briefing to agitate for more constitutional reform. Really don’t think it’s the time and certainly not the place for that sort of politicking.
		
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Though many Nats are p'd off with her for almost completely *avoiding *talking about independence these days.

That doesn't mean that she can't identify and raise areas of government where further developed powers - such as might have been delivered by Devo-Max - could give her and her government more autonomy and flexibility.   I think that most Scots would want their government to be able to create answers to Scottish issues unhindered by constraints imposed by a Westminster government - constraints that may well be relevant to the majority of the wider UK, but perhaps not to Scotland.  And I think it reasonable that she identifies to the Scots electorate aspects of what she may be having to do in response to the pandemic, that in different circumstances she might not otherwise do.

And in the end there is an election coming soon Scotland's way.


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## Mudball (Aug 7, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The headline reads....
Safety concerns halt use of 50 million NHS masks

Where does it say not fit for use?
I gave blood this morning and all the nursing staff were wearing the over ear masks.
The two nurses I spoke to had no problems with their masks and neither had heard about any concerns
		
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Really..  no PPE problems? Must be a very good Trust.  Well done. 

Mrs just bought her PPE - a full head cover - because they struggle with inconsistent mask quality, availability and having to wear it for 8 hrs .  The new one is like a hazmat headcover and pumps filtered air into it 

Yet to meet a medico who has not had PPE challenges


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## Kaz (Aug 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though many Nats are p'd off with her for almost completely *avoiding *talking about independence these days.

That doesn't mean that she can't identify and raise areas of government where further developed powers - such as might have been delivered by Devo-Max - could give her and her government more autonomy and flexibility.   I think that most Scots would want their government to be able to create answers to Scottish issues unhindered by constraints imposed by a Westminster government that may well be relevant to the majority of the wider UK, but perhaps not to Scotland.  And I think it reasonable that she identifies to the Scots electorate aspects of what she may be having to do in response to the pandemic, that in different circumstances she might not otherwise do.

And in the end there is an election coming soon Scotland's way.
		
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I couldn’t disagree more. They can raise these issues in other settings. It’s wholly inappropriate to use these briefings as party political broadcasts.


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## bobmac (Aug 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Here! As in SILH's post you quoted!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53672841

Click to expand...

Just pasting a link to the site that I quoted from, doesn't tell me anything.
Can you show me any doctor/scientist/virologist who said these are unfit for use.
And if they are unfit, why are further tests on the masks being carried out?
From your link....

_''Most have now been delivered but they have not yet been released for use in the NHS and are awaiting further testing.''_


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Just pasting a link to the site that I quoted from, doesn't tell me anything.
Can you show me any doctor/scientist/virologist who said these are unfit for use.
And if they are unfit, why are further tests on the masks being carried out?
From your link....

_''Most have now been delivered but they have not yet been released for use in the NHS and are awaiting further testing.''_

Click to expand...

Read the entire article!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I couldn’t disagree more. They can raise these issues in other settings. It’s wholly inappropriate to use these briefings as party political broadcasts.
		
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She has to explain why she is having to do what she is doing.

You might as well then say that no Westminster government minister can lay any blame or criticism, or point any finger, at the Labour Party or the Unions for any aspect of dealing with the pandemic.  And when PMQs gets going again, Johnson best stop diverting as he does much of what he is asked by Kier Starmer back to Starmer as a criticism, complaint or question about Starmer, Labour or the unions.


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## Kaz (Aug 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She has to explain why she is having to do what she is doing.

You might as well then say that no Westminster government minister can lay any blame or criticism, or point any finger, at the Labour Party or the Unions for any aspect of dealing with the pandemic.  And when PMQs gets going again, Johnson best stop diverting as he does much of what he is asked by Kier Starmer back to Starmer as a criticism, complaint or question about Starmer, Labour or the unions.
		
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Time and a place. The FM can talk about borrowing powers and what she would do with them all she wants at FM questions but she needs to tell her colleagues not to turn the public health briefing into a party political broadcast.


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## GreiginFife (Aug 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Time and a place. The FM can talk about borrowing powers and what she would do with them all she wants at FM questions but she needs to tell her colleagues not to turn the public health briefing into a party political broadcast.
		
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Wasting your metaphorical breath there Karen, Nats will never see the ill being done by the SNP. Whataboutery towards Westminster or the Tories or the "whoever is in power but not the SNP". 

You are spot on though, if there is an issue with funding or powers or any other non pandemic matter, the briefings are not the place or time. These are the same people that continually said it was wrong of the UK Govt to use briefings as political vehicles (and you wouldn't catch them doing that!).


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## GB72 (Aug 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Time and a place. The FM can talk about borrowing powers and what she would do with them all she wants at FM questions but she needs to tell her colleagues not to turn the public health briefing into a party political broadcast.
		
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I had this issue with the Westminster briefings albeit in that case it was the press looking to use the briefings for scoring points on politicians rather than do what they should and what the briefings are meant for, extract and clarify information that the general public needs directly in relation to the pandemic, how they need to act and what they can do.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Read the entire article!
		
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The phrase unfit for purpose is reported as being said only by BJ and not in the context as inferred.
 He says

Asked about the masks, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said he was "very disappointed" that "any consignment" of personal protective equipment (PPE) "should turn out not to be fit for purpose".

if being literal ,he is talking in general about any PPE consignment , isn't he?

Could be read how you want really😉


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## Mudball (Aug 7, 2020)

Not sure what everyone is bickering about...
1) Unfit PPE were procured ... agree.. this was the case with the Turkish one and widely reported 
2) they were detected... just shows that the system works ... 

Every cloud has a silver lining 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/a...rontline-staff-from-coronavirus-minister-says


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I couldn’t disagree more. They can raise these issues in other settings. It’s wholly inappropriate to use these briefings as party political broadcasts.
		
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I have watched most of them and I really have seen very little 'party politics' coming directly from the First Minister.
She does give some pretty blunt replies to any questions that are politically planted so I can see why some may see that differently.
The quality of many of the press questions put to her are generally very poor, repetitive and politically biased, pretty much what you would expect from a 90% Unionist supporting press and the Scottish BBC.

Nicola's approval rates have her light years ahead of Johnson.
As Hogan said she is building up a fair bit of resistance from Independence supporters for putting Independence on the back burner whilst dealing with Covid.


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## Kaz (Aug 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have watched most of them and I really have seen very little 'party politics' coming directly from the First Minister.
She does give some pretty blunt replies to any questions that are politically planted so I can see why some may see that differently.
The quality of many of the press questions put to her are generally very poor, repetitive and politically biased, pretty much what you would expect from a 90% Unionist supporting press and the Scottish BBC.

Nicola's approval rates have her light years ahead of Johnson.
As Hogan said she is building up a fair bit of resistance from Independence supporters for putting Independence on the back burner whilst dealing with Covid.
		
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I agree with all that.

My complaint is with some of the lesser lights, taking their moment in the spotlight. Kate Forbes, just about every time she's on, and Jeane Freeman today. I infer from your careful wording that you accept some truth in that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I agree with all that.

My complaint is with some of the lesser lights, taking their moment in the spotlight. Kate Forbes, just about every time she's on, and Jeane Freeman today. I infer from your careful wording that you accept some truth in that.
		
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When senior Tory politicians come up to Scotland during the middle of a Covid pandemic to campaign on Scotland staying within the Union surely the SNP have a right of reply.
Especially when they say that Scotland would not have survived Covid without the 'support' of the Union.
The Chancellor did say some positive things the other day, trouble is he is a member of a party that has a long history of lying to the Scots people.
Do I trust his words...no.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 8, 2020)

Doon
Whatever your political allegiances are, I cannot see how Scotland or Northern Ireland or Wales would have been able to afford the furlough scheme and the other economic measures bought in to help the UK through the pandemic, without central government help.

How can you be so blinkered

Praise where praise is due and where mistakes have been made , and there have been plenty, were they made in good faith with the information available at the time?
Which count as learning points for the future

But if people have been on the take with contracts going to family members and cronyism, then full investigations and the culprits hung out to dry is appropriate.

But criticism for criticism’s sake is petty


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## chrisd (Aug 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Doon
Whatever your political allegiances are, I cannot see how Scotland or Northern Ireland or Wales would have been able to afford the furlough scheme and the other economic measures bought in to help the UK through the pandemic, without central government help.

How can you be so blinkered

Praise where praise is due and where mistakes have been made , and there have been plenty, were they made in good faith with the information available at the time?
Which count as learning points for the future

But if people have been on the take with contracts going to family members and cronyism, then full investigations and the culprits hung out to dry is appropriate.

But criticism for criticism’s sake is petty
		
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Fair comment I'd say, but in the case of Doon's postings for many a year I'd say this Phil has come a little too late 😁


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## harpo_72 (Aug 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Chancellor did say some positive things the other day, trouble is he is a member of a party that has a long history of lying to the Scots people.
Do I trust his words...no.
		
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think it’s not just the Scots, pretty much the U.K. and some people have not even realised they have been lied to... just let it play itself out and see whether the level of lying is picked up by the public. What I would prefer is any campaign comments that are not true then they should be identified as a lie or an attempt to misguide.


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The phrase unfit for purpose is reported as being said only by BJ and not in the context as inferred.
He says

Asked about the masks, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said he was "very disappointed" that "any consignment" of personal protective equipment (PPE) "should turn out not to be fit for purpose".

if being literal ,he is talking in general about any PPE consignment , isn't he?

Could be read how you want really😉
		
Click to expand...

That's certainly true, but somewhat irrelevant to the discussion. and the question was, as per your quote 'Asked about *the* masks'! 

These 50M masks were purchased specifically for use in the NHS. Will they be used there? No! Why not? Because they are not up to the standard required for use there!
FWIW, there are 'up to standard' masks that will, presumably, be used in NHS in the same order/consignment.


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## bobmac (Aug 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			These 50M masks were purchased specifically for use in the NHS. Will they be used there? No! Why not? Because they are not up to the standard required for use there!
		
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Says who?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Says who?
		
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The Government, they recalled them:

In response to judicial review proceedings issued by Good Law Project, the Government has admitted that the 50 million FFP2 masks they purchased from Ayanda Capital – for a price that we calculate to be between£156m and £177m –  “will not be used in the NHS” because “there was concern as to whether the[y]… provided an adequate fixing.”

But it may not be the end of it either:

So, unless Government finds another use for, or seeks to sell, those unsuitable masks, that money has been wasted. And as for the remaining 150 million Type IIR masks purchased from Ayanda Capital? Government has admitted they also require further testing and have not been released for use in the NHS.


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Says who?
		
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Read the flaming  article! Specifically the 1st 3 paragraphs and the by-line!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2020)

Watching Sky Golf - Tom Lewis being interviewed in UK on practice hole ( I guess at Hanbury Manor) and I'm not really understanding how the player and interviewer can be standing together almost touching, and not wearing masks.  I know in the overall 'numbers game' of infection this sort of scenario is rare - and so risk of infection one to the other and onward spread into the community is very low.  Now that's my subjective risk assessment - but I am not clear as to how it in the rules of today i.e what rule allows it.


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			...
So, unless Government finds another use for, or seeks to sell, those unsuitable masks, that money has been wasted. And as for the remaining 150 million Type IIR masks purchased from Ayanda Capital? Government has admitted they also require further testing and have not been released for use in the NHS.
		
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As there are millions of folk using this type of mask, I don't believe 'the money has been wasted' completely. It's highly likely that these masks are entirely suitable for 'general' use, just not for use in the NHS. So resale is definitely an option imo.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Doon
Whatever your political allegiances are, I cannot see how Scotland or Northern Ireland or Wales would have been able to afford the furlough scheme and the other economic measures bought in to help the UK through the pandemic, without central government help.

How can you be so blinkered

Praise where praise is due and where mistakes have been made , and there have been plenty, were they made in good faith with the information available at the time?
Which count as learning points for the future

But if people have been on the take with contracts going to family members and cronyism, then full investigations and the culprits hung out to dry is appropriate.

But criticism for criticism’s sake is petty
		
Click to expand...

The furlough money is not actual money but money borrowed.
If the Scots Government had equal borrowing powers do you not think that they would do the same.
An example of this would be of me and my friends buying you a Rolls Royce then expecting you to pay me back the purchase price at enhanced interest rates.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The furlough money is not actual money but money borrowed.
If the Scots Government had equal borrowing powers do you not think that they would do the same.
An example of this would be of me and my friends buying you a Rolls Royce then expecting you to pay me back the purchase price at enhanced interest rates.
		
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But they haven’t 

🤔🙄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But they haven’t

🤔🙄
		
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Indeed - though why would central UK government borrow money to fund a furlough scheme and other measures for the UK, and *not *distribute a proportion of it to the Scottish government as it would surely be bound to do under it's reserved powers responsibilities?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Watching Sky Golf - Tom Lewis being interviewed in UK on practice hole ( I guess at Hanbury Manor) and I'm not really understanding how the player and interviewer can be standing together almost touching, and not wearing masks.  I know in the overall 'numbers game' of infection this sort of scenario is rare - and so risk of infection one to the other and onward spread into the community is very low.  Now that's my subjective risk assessment - but I am not clear as to how it in the rules of today i.e what rule allows it.
		
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Except for the fact that Tom Lewis is playing in the USPGA Championship at Harding Park, San Francisco, USA.


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## Kaz (Aug 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When senior Tory politicians come up to Scotland during the middle of a Covid pandemic to campaign on Scotland staying within the Union surely the SNP have a right of reply.
Especially when they say that Scotland would not have survived Covid without the 'support' of the Union.
The Chancellor did say some positive things the other day, trouble is he is a member of a party that has a long history of lying to the Scots people.
Do I trust his words...no.
		
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All of that's fine, just not at the public health briefing. It lasts about an hour, get the important stuff across and do the campaigning afterwards.

And tory lying is not restricted to the Scots people. If some people put the same energy into countering them rather than endlessly refighting ancient historical battles Scotland and the whole of the UK might be better off.


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## Kaz (Aug 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But they haven’t

🤔🙄
		
Click to expand...

Phil, that's his and the nats point.

You're not helping here!


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The furlough money is not actual money but money borrowed.
If the Scots Government had equal borrowing powers do you not think that they would do the same.
...
		
Click to expand...

I'd 'Like' this...


Doon frae Troon said:



			...
An example of this would be of me and my friends buying you a Rolls Royce then expecting you to pay me back the purchase price at enhanced interest rates.
		
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But the above is simply twaddle!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But they haven’t

🤔🙄
		
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Sadly no, but it was promised by Cameron, Miliband and Clegg when the Political British Unionists went into panic mode 2 days before the 2014 referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Except for the fact that Tom Lewis is playing in the USPGA Championship at Harding Park, San Francisco, USA.
		
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Well whoever it was - I thought I heard say the interview was with Lewis.  My question remains the same. Nick Dougherty was doing the interview.  The two were standing almost cheek by jowel.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well whoever it was - I thought I heard say the interview was with Lewis.  My question remains the same. Nick Dougherty was doing the interview.  The two were standing almost cheek by jowel.
		
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Perhaps Nick Dougherty might also be in San Francisco 🤔

Or maybe it was a recording of a previous interview.


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## Billysboots (Aug 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well whoever it was - I thought I heard say the interview was with Lewis.  My question remains the same. Nick Dougherty was doing the interview.  The two were standing almost cheek by jowel.
		
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I think, now that the pandemic is almost eight months on, that we perhaps need to get used to the fact that, occasionally, people are going to stand a fraction too close to one another. It’s going to happen, intentionally or otherwise, in all walks of life and perhaps no longer warrants a mention.


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## Ethan (Aug 9, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Perhaps Nick Dougherty might also be in San Francisco 🤔

Or maybe it was a recording of a previous interview.
		
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I don't think any of the Sky crew are in SF. The closed doors events have a very limited media attendance and the feed is then picked up by other broadcasters.


MetalMickie said:



			Perhaps Nick Dougherty might also be in San Francisco 🤔

Or maybe it was a recording of a previous interview.
		
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I don't think there are any Sky Sports people onsite at the PGA. Looks like it is all remote using the feed from ESPN/CBS.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I don't think any of the Sky crew are in SF. The closed doors events have a very limited media attendance and the feed is then picked up by other broadcasters.


I don't think there are any Sky Sports people onsite at the PGA. Looks like it is all remote using the feed from ESPN/CBS.
		
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You may be right. Certainly many of the usual suspects are commentating from Sky's UK studios.

However  Tom Lewis is certainly there so any interview was either on site, or pre- recorded (library) or Dougherty is in UK and the interview was downline.


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

GDP drop in Q2

So who was saying the UK economy is in good shape considering?


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## rulefan (Aug 10, 2020)

Hardly unexpected


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Hardly unexpected
		
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Somewhere back in this thread, or the other Covid one, someone said that the UK economy was in good shape, or possibly better shape than other EU countries, to recover. Just wondering how this information affects their analysis.


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## Foxholer (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Somewhere back in this thread, or the other Covid one, someone said that the UK economy was in good shape, or possibly better shape than other EU countries, to recover. Just wondering how this information affects their analysis.
		
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Good shape...almost certainly not! 'better shape than other EU countries' ...possibly! But there WILL be challenges to be faced. I'm quite impressed at how well the government is 'thinking out of the box' with recovery initiatives like the 'Eat Out to Help Out' one. In fact, the Chancellor (and presumably the team of advisers behind him) impresses me more than the PM (and his team of advisers) does!

It's really going to be a case of how well UK economy can recover from this - though first it has to actually survive, as the situation is by no means 'under control' and won't be until a vaccine is freely available. 

And 'Recovery' is going to be a global challenge, not simply a UK one! I equate it to recovery after a World War - so look at how massive the international efforts needed to be for that exercise. It'll require the same sort of efforts, though with a better starting point, as there hasn't been the destruction of buildings and infrastructure resulting from those conflicts. As a 'trading' nation, UK is likely to be, at least initially, more affected than countries with larger (agricultural) land masses imo, as feeding the home population has to be the first priority!


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Good shape...almost certainly not! 'better shape than other EU countries' ...possibly! But there WILL be challenges to be faced. I'm quite impressed at how well the government is 'thinking out of the box' with recovery initiatives like the 'Eat Out to Help Out' one. In fact, the Chancellor (and presumably the team of advisers behind him) impresses me more than the PM (and his team of advisers) does!

It's really going to be a case of how well UK economy can recover from this - though first it has to actually survive, as the situation is by no means 'under control' and won't be until a vaccine is freely available.

And 'Recovery' is going to be a global challenge, not simply a UK one! I equate it to recovery after a World War - so look at how massive the international efforts needed to be for that exercise. It'll require the same sort of efforts, though with a better starting point, as there hasn't been the destruction of buildings and infrastructure resulting from those conflicts. As a 'trading' nation, UK is likely to be, at least initially, more affected than countries with larger (agricultural) land masses imo, as feeding the home population has to be the first priority!
		
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Sunak has had it easy so far, throwing money around like Santa Claus without ay serious scrutiny over how it will be repaid, and remaining calm and coherent. But he will have to repay it, and assuming it won'r come from growth, Brexit putting a bit of boot into that prospect, then it will have to come from taxes and public sector pay restraint. We'll see if his popularity stands after that comes. 

I don't think the UK is in better shape to respond, having taken a huge dump on its trading economy with Brexit. A sane and rational Govt would have extended. Likewise, feeding the population needs people to pick fruit and veg rather than let them rot in the fields.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2020)

In the context of a return to school I heard over the weekend epidemiologists, scientists, of a Lancet report, and other experts tell that risk of spread of the virus among and by young children is (very?) low - higher in the teens - but low in the younger age-group.  And that felt positive and encouraging for a return to school in September.

And then I heard Williamson, and read Johnson, say the same - and I wondered what they were spinning or hiding.  That is very unfortunate, but for me they reap the mistrust that they have sown (by such as the Cummings to Barnard Castle fiasco/deceit).

That said, as their words are consistent with those who actually know and have no reason to spin or deceive, I will try and ignore my prejudice against Williamson and Johnson and look to trust in what they say on this.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the context of a return to school I heard over the weekend epidemiologists, scientists, of a Lancet report, and other experts tell that risk of spread of the virus among and by young children is (very?) low - higher in the teens - but low in the younger age-group.  And that felt positive and encouraging for a return to school in September.

And then I heard Williamson, and read Johnson, say the same - and I wondered what they were spinning or hiding.  That is very unfortunate, but for me they reap the mistrust that they have sown (by such as the Cummings to Barnard Castle fiasco/deceit).

That said, as their words are consistent with those who actually know and have no reason to spin or deceive, I will try and ignore my prejudice against Williamson and Johnson and look to trust in what they say on this.
		
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How do you feel about the kids going back in Scotland next week? Well before those in England. Do you trust the ministers there? Same virus, same way it spreads etc?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do you feel about the kids going back in Scotland next week? Well before those in England. Do you trust the ministers there? Same virus, same way it spreads etc?
		
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Much less virulent in Scotland though.

Even allowing for that everyone is pretty apprehensive, the main worries are about grandchildren infection grandparents.
Many grandparents are like us and involved in child care in the 3pm to 6pm period.
Scottish Grannies social distancing at school gates worries me a bit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do you feel about the kids going back in Scotland next week? Well before those in England. Do you trust the ministers there? Same virus, same way it spreads etc?
		
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I trust the ministers in Scotland more than I trust Johnson and such as Williamson (or more - I would find it difficult to mistrust any bunch more than the current lot in charge in Westminster).

And as for Johnson lecturing us about morals - as in children not returning to school being 'morally indefensible' (yes I read the Sunday Times article).  Well at least the irony of that coming from him made me smile.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Much less virulent in Scotland though.

Even allowing for that everyone is pretty apprehensive, the main worries are about grandchildren infection grandparents.
Many grandparents are like us and involved in child care in the 3pm to 6pm period.
Scottish Grannies social distancing at school gates worries me a bit.
		
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I share your concerns but issues are exactly the same. It has been said before, this virus doesn't see borders, it doesn't see worthy causes. No need to make the schools decision a country v country one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I trust the ministers in Scotland more than I trust Johnson and such as Williamson.  And as for Johnson lecturing us about morals - as in children not returning to school being 'morally indefensible' - well (yes I read the Sunday Times article).  Well at least that can make me smile before I shake my head.
		
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They are making the exact same decision based on the same data, coming to the same conclusions. You either accept both on this or neither as there is no difference between them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I share your concerns but issues are exactly the same. It has been said before, this virus doesn't see borders, it doesn't see worthy causes. No need to make the schools decision a country v country one.
		
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Oh come on.......I was just stating the bleeding obvious.
I am certain the folk living on the Western Isles will be saying exactly the same thing about the Scottish central belt.
You asked about Scotland Vs England and got a reply about Scotland vs England.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh come on.......I was just stating the bleeding obvious.
I am certain the folk living on the Western Isles will be saying exactly the same thing about the Scottish central belt.
You asked about Scotland Vs England and got a reply about Scotland vs England.

Click to expand...

Sorry, that line was not pointed at you (shock horror ). It was for SILH.

I genuinely agree with your points about the grandparents who are picking up their kids at the gate, those who will be mixing with the kids at home and so on. That is a worry but it doesn't seem to have been a problem in Denmark and the likes so hopefully we are worrying over nothing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sorry, that line was not pointed at you (shock horror ). It was for SILH.

I genuinely agree with your points about the grandparents who are picking up their kids at the gate, those who will be mixing with the kids at home and so on. That is a worry but it doesn't seem to have been a problem in Denmark and the likes so hopefully we are worrying over nothing.
		
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Fair enough 
BTW Hogan lives in Surrey so maybe not entirely up to date with what's occurring re Scottish schools.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Fair enough 
BTW Hogan lives in Surrey so maybe not entirely up to date with what's occurring re Scottish schools.
		
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I know he lives down there but what is happening in all 4 home nations is well publicised so that is not an excuse. I'm happy to have a good debate, I'm no fan of Boris, but it has to be a debate and not just yet another cheap jibe. That gets boring, there is no debate in that.


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## GB72 (Aug 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know he lives down there but what is happening in all 4 home nations is well publicised so that is not an excuse. I'm happy to have a good debate, I'm no fan of Boris, but it has to be a debate and not just yet another cheap jibe. That gets boring, there is no debate in that.
		
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This I agree with. I enjoy debating points and am happy to be swayed one way or the other as I have no real political allegiance aside from supporting centerist parties where one exists as I have no time for either hard right or extreme left. The last election left me no preferable option.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Much less virulent in Scotland though.*

Even allowing for that everyone is pretty apprehensive, the main worries are about grandchildren infection grandparents.
Many grandparents are like us and involved in child care in the 3pm to 6pm period.
Scottish Grannies social distancing at school gates worries me a bit.
		
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That really is a silly comment 🤣


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I don't think any of the Sky crew are in SF. The closed doors events have a very limited media attendance and the feed is then picked up by other broadcasters.


I don't think there are any Sky Sports people onsite at the PGA. Looks like it is all remote using the feed from ESPN/CBS.
		
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In fact Rich Beem was onsite, but he had qualified to play as a former winner. MC'd by a fair margin, though but was therefore able to stick around for the rest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They are making the exact same decision based on the same data, coming to the same conclusions. You either accept both on this or neither as there is no difference between them.
		
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They might well be - but as DfT says - I don't live in Scotland.  However the problem for me is not so much the advice or the decisions being made on schooling ...it's about the politicians in Westminster mouthing them.  I don't *need *to trust Sturgeon and her crew in Holyrood.  However I am asked (and need) to believe and trust Johnson and his lot in Westminster.  And by their words and actions over the last 4 years (and indeed to an extent in some matters over the last 6months) I just don't.


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## drdel (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They might well be - but as DfT says - I don't live in Scotland.  However the problem for me is not so much the advice or the decisions being made on schooling ...it's about the politicians in Westminster mouthing them.  I don't *need *to trust Sturgeon and her crew in Holyrood.  However I am asked (and need) to believe and trust Johnson and his lot in Westminster.  And by their words and actions over the last 4 years (and indeed to an extent in some matters over the last 6months) I just don't.
		
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Grandparents collecting kids at school gates are usually in the open air and can SD. They are unlikely to be interacting closely for more than 15mins and can wear masks so the probability of transmission is likely to be pretty low.


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## Hobbit (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They might well be - but as DfT says - I don't live in Scotland.  However the problem for me is not so much the advice or the decisions being made on schooling ...it's about the politicians in Westminster mouthing them.  I don't *need *to trust Sturgeon and her crew in Holyrood.  However I am asked (and need) to believe and trust Johnson and his lot in Westminster.  And by their words and actions over the last 4 years (and indeed to an extent in some matters over the last 6months) I just don't.
		
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What? You don't believe or trust Johnson and the Tories? Well there's an absolute shock. Do you think we care?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			Grandparents collecting kids at school gates are usually in the open air and can SD. They are unlikely to be interacting closely for more than 15mins and can wear masks so the probability of transmission is likely to be pretty low.
		
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This I know - as the experts tell me so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What? You don't believe or trust Johnson and the Tories? Well there's an absolute shock. Do you think we care?
		
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No.

But I am not the only one who does not trust the government - and the analysis and tracking of public opinion shows a lot of trust in the government handling of the pandemic was lost with the Cummings fiasco.

That there is a lack of belief or trust in the government in many seems to have produced variable acceptance, and following of, the measures we are asked to adhere to - and it gives an excuse to those who don't want to - or can't be bothered - to do as requested.  And that should matter to us all.

So on schools and low risk of infection I can listen to the experts and I can believe and trust them.  When a minister or Johnson then reiterates the same point I instinctively look for political motive.


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## chrisd (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.

But I am not the only one who does not trust the government - and the analysis and tracking of public opinion shows a lot of trust in the government handling of the pandemic was lost with the Cummings fiasco.

That there is a lack of belief or trust in the government in many seems to have produced variable acceptance, and following of, the measures we are asked to adhere to - and it gives an excuse to those who don't want to - or can't be bothered - to do as requested.  And that should matter to us all.

So on schools and low risk of infection I can listen to the experts and I can believe and trust them.  When a minister or Johnson then reiterates the same point I instinctively look for political motive.
		
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So when it is a politician talking you look for a political motive mmmmmmmm I never thought of that 😖😖


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## Hobbit (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.

But I am not the only one who does not trust the government - and the analysis and tracking of public opinion shows a lot of trust in the government handling of the pandemic was lost with the Cummings fiasco.

That there is a lack of belief or trust in the government in many seems to have produced variable acceptance, and following of, the measures we are asked to adhere to - and it gives an excuse to those who don't want to - or can't be bothered - to do as requested.  And that should matter to us all.

So on schools and low risk of infection I can listen to the experts and I can believe and trust them.  When a minister or Johnson then reiterates the same point I instinctively look for political motive.
		
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I’m a socialist Hugh, and want a socialist govt, as do so many people. However, your postS are frequently at the extreme end of whatever subject you post on, and very disparaging of anything that doesn’t come close to your version of the truth.

As for trusting the experts on schools; I wonder who pays them for their opinion? Here in Southern Spain the testing regime sees everyone and their dog tested when there’s an outbreak. 25% of under 4‘s are showing positive and 33% of under 15’s. Granted their version of how bad it is is usually not much more than a sniffle. But what about their parents and grandparents, and their friends parents and grandparents?


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			Grandparents collecting kids at school gates are usually in the open air and can SD. They are unlikely to be interacting closely for more than 15mins and can wear masks so the probability of transmission is likely to be pretty low.
		
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I agree. The risk between one another, if SDing, at the school gates is low. The risk of getting it from the grandchild


Hobbit said:



			What? You don't believe or trust Johnson and the Tories? Well there's an absolute shock. Do you think we care?
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.

But I am not the only one who does not trust the government - and the analysis and tracking of public opinion shows a lot of trust in the government handling of the pandemic was lost with the Cummings fiasco.

That there is a lack of belief or trust in the government in many seems to have produced variable acceptance, and following of, the measures we are asked to adhere to - and it gives an excuse to those who don't want to - or can't be bothered - to do as requested.  And that should matter to us all.

So on schools and low risk of infection I can listen to the experts and I can believe and trust them.  When a minister or Johnson then reiterates the same point I instinctively look for political motive.
		
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I don't trust the Govt on Covid either. 

They embarked on a herd immunity strategy, a strategy intended to let the virus sweep through the population at the cost of who knows how many lives. There was no evidence such a strategy could work, we didn't know if immunity was conferred by exposure, and the plan to shield the vulnerable was hopelessly ineffective. 

They stopped tracing on March 12th, just when it was needed most. They failed to close the borders when it was possible to keep the virus out, they failed to lockdown at an early stage. They sent infected patients back to care homes without testing them. They repeatedly lied about testing numbers and capability, they awarded fat contracts to incompetent private companies, donor and acolytes right, left and centre instead of using public sector and academic groups here in the UK. And Cummings. 

It has been a catalogue of disaster. 

On schools, I think it is probably safe enough. My kids will go back to Years 6 and 8. You can never say it is 'safe', though. The issue for me is that it is impossible for the Govt to allow a situation where kids can't go to school but people can go to pubs and shops. Shut the schools, you have to close the pubs and shops too. They really really don't want to do that.


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## GB72 (Aug 10, 2020)

Even as someone with no kids who likes going to the pub, I would happily lose the pub to see kids back at school for so many reasons. In a rural community, school is often the only real opportunity for some kids to socialise and the being away from it has had some real mental impact. There is also the parents. I know some who have lost jobs due to the pandemic but cannot look for a new job because they cannot offer a start date until the their kids are back at school. There is also the parents mental health as they cannot socialise in the same way. There are also those who want to get off furlough but cannot until the schools open again. 

This really does have to be the priority but parents and grandparents alike need to show sense and, if anything, over caution to minimise the impact.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2020)

Well if Scotland is anything to go by watch out for fireworks in England when the Exam results get posted.

Some Scots moms and dads think it was quite OK that some teachers assessments on low attaining pupils give a 20% improvement on the 2019 figures.
Imagine the hoohaa if the Scots Government went with that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well if Scotland is anything to go by watch out for fireworks in England when the Exam results get posted.

Some Scots moms and dads think it was quite OK that some teachers assessments on low attaining pupils give a 20% improvement on the 2019 figures.
Imagine the hoohaa if the Scots Government went with that.
		
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The results were in about 2 weeks ago. My understanding, I have a daughter who will be getting her results this Thursday so I have followed this quite closely, is that the schools over estimated but the exam boards reeled them back in. The results will show a 1% improvement over last year, if the report I read was correct of course. I'm not surprised that schools were over generous but equally it is good that the exam boards are there to retain the credibility of the qualification.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.

But I am not the only one who does not trust the government - and the analysis and tracking of public opinion shows a lot of trust in the government handling of the pandemic was lost with the Cummings fiasco.

That there is a lack of belief or trust in the government in many seems to have produced variable acceptance, and following of, the measures we are asked to adhere to - and it gives an excuse to those who don't want to - or can't be bothered - to do as requested.  And that should matter to us all.

So on schools and low risk of infection I can listen to the experts and I can believe and trust them.  When a minister or Johnson then reiterates the same point I instinctively look for political motive.
		
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Your lack of anything in this Government has nothing to do with Cummings so stop trying to pretend it does. You threw your toys out of the pram way before the Cummings fiasco. You have no interest in anything you disagree with and have no interested in what others post.

Your continued posts on the same old same old shows everyone your lack of interest in others views.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well if Scotland is anything to go by watch out for fireworks in England when the Exam results get posted.

Some Scots moms and dads think it was quite OK that some teachers assessments on low attaining pupils give a 20% improvement on the 2019 figures.
Imagine the hoohaa if the Scots Government went with that.
		
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Education achievement in Scotland I believe has been lower than England for several years so politically it might have been a great idea to boost the grades. We will see next week if the same scam is tried.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The results were in about 2 weeks ago. My understanding, I have a daughter who will be getting her results this Thursday so I have followed this quite closely, is that the schools over estimated but the exam boards reeled them back in. The results will show a 1% improvement over last year, if the report I read was correct of course. I'm not surprised that schools were over generous but equally it is good that the exam boards are there to retain the credibility of the qualification.
		
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I think they did well in the whole.
A relative of mine had an unexpected A and an unexpected D....which one will the school appeal.
Scots Gov under pressure and back tracking now. I think that will probably make things worse.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think they did well in the whole.
A relative of mine had an unexpected A and an unexpected D....which one will the school appeal.
Scots Gov under pressure and back tracking now. I think that will probably make things worse.
		
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It has been enormously difficult and quite an undertaking to estimate marks on this scale. They were on a hiding to nothing, all of the exam boards. Unprecedented times and all that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your lack of anything in this Government has nothing to do with Cummings so stop trying to pretend it does. You threw your toys out of the pram way before the Cummings fiasco. You have no interest in anything you disagree with and have no interested in what others post.

Your continued posts on the same old same old shows everyone your lack of interest in others views.
		
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Survey of public opinion finds that the trust in the government dropped very significantly following the Cummings day trip to BC.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-08-07...ent-fell-after-cummings-durham-trip--research

_*Dominic Cummings*’ trip to Durham at the height of lockdown while suffering from *coronavirus* drastically undermined public trust in the Government’s handling of the pandemic, according to new research._

_The analysis, conducted by University College London (UCL), found the actions of the Prime Minister’s chief adviser reduced people’s willingness to follow social distancing rules._

What trust I hold in the government is neither here nor there.  However it does seem to be matched by much of the population - and that should matter to us all.

What others might post about the government is fine.  But it does not change what has happened over the last four years.  And for me that has not been fine.


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your lack of anything in this Government has nothing to do with Cummings so stop trying to pretend it does. You threw your toys out of the pram way before the Cummings fiasco. You have no interest in anything you disagree with and have no interested in what others post.

Your continued posts on the same old same old shows everyone your lack of interest in others views.
		
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Go on then, persuade us the Govt has done at least a decent job on Covid.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Go on then, persuade us the Govt has done at least a decent job on Covid.
		
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If you see the daily YouGov polls it might surprise you.

 I have no evidence like you that they have handled the crisis in the best way within the country's capabilities. Hopefully we will find that out in the wash up once things become settled.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Survey of public opinion finds that the trust in the government dropped very significantly following the Cummings day trip to BC.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-08-07...ent-fell-after-cummings-durham-trip--research

_*Dominic Cummings*’ trip to Durham at the height of lockdown while suffering from *coronavirus* drastically undermined public trust in the Government’s handling of the pandemic, according to new research._

_The analysis, conducted by University College London (UCL), found the actions of the Prime Minister’s chief adviser reduced people’s willingness to follow social distancing rules._

What trust I hold in the government is neither here nor there.  However it does seem to be matched by much of the population - and that should matter to us all.

What others might post about the government is fine.  But it does not change what has happened over the last four years.  And for me that has not been fine.
		
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There were very few on here that agreed with the Cummings fiasco, what's that got to do with the general day to day running of the country. 

Are you going to shout Cummings everytime the government do something that you disagree with.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There were very few on here that agreed with the Cummings fiasco, what's that got to do with the general day to day running of the country.

Are you going to shout Cummings everytime the government do something that you disagree with.
		
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Unfortunately (and obviously) it is difficult to trust someone to run the country who lies and practices to deceive (as he has been proven as having done recently and continuously over the last 20yrs).   Unlike many for whom Cummings was the catalyst - my mistrust of Johnson and his government is not founded upon Cummings or their handing of the coronavirus pandemic.  That mistrust does not then make it any the easier to believe and trust what they say now,  and it does not make it easy to overlook and forgive the mistakes that have been made - for which there has been little acceptance of responsibility by Johnson - for whom as example our Test and Trace system remains 'World Beating'.  It's not - and it's clearly not.  In fact it's struggling to get fully up to steam - officials and the boss of Serco tell us that.  And because of that it cannot deliver what the country requires for schools to go back without fear in September.  That observation does not denigrate the efforts of those who work in it - it simply points a deceit that Johnson and other ministers continue to perpetrate.  And as long as these deceits continue I will struggle to believe what they say.

That I do not trust Johnson matters not.  That many others do not trust him should bother all Conservatives.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately (and obviously) it is difficult to trust someone to run the country who lies and practices to deceive (as he has been proven as having done recently and continuously over the last 20yrs).   Unlike many for whom Cummings was the catalyst - my mistrust of Johnson and his government is not founded upon Cummings or their handing of the coronavirus pandemic.  That mistrust does not then make it any the easier to believe and trust what they say now,  and it does not make it easy to overlook and forgive the mistakes that have been made - for which there has been little acceptance of responsibility by Johnson - for whom as example our Test and Trace system remains 'World Beating'.  It's not - and it's clearly not.  In fact it's struggling to get fully up to steam - officials and the boss of Serco tell us that.  And because of that it cannot deliver what the country requires for schools to go back without fear in September.  That observation does not denigrate the efforts of those who work in it - it simply points a deceit that Johnson and other ministers continue to perpetrate.  And as long as these deceits continue I will struggle to believe what they say.

That I do not trust Johnson matters not.  That many others do not trust him should bother all Conservatives.
		
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You missed the IMO.  Many countries track and trace systems are not working in the manner that governments wanted, mainly due to people failing to give the necessary information or deliberately failing to cooperate as seen in germany recently.

People are proving to be a bigger obstacle than government in many instances.


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You missed the IMO.  Many countries track and trace systems are not working in the manner that governments wanted, mainly due to people failing to give the necessary information or deliberately failing to cooperate as seen in germany recently.

People are proving to be a bigger obstacle than government in many instances.
		
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Few international tracing systems are working worse. Some have worked very well indeed. Contact tracing is not a call centre algorithm activity. It needs boots on the ground and local contacts, and PHE could easily have been scaled up by bringing in related staff. The UK does contact tracing pretty well, actually, for example for STDs, but the decision to stop Covid tracing in March, then after the stable door is open, replace it with a Serco/Dido call centre version was a horrible, foreseeable, we said so at the time mistake. Most of the tracing claimed by Dido was done by PHE anyway. The app was always a side show, the main effect of which was to lob a load of money at Cummings' sidekicks' brother who is CEO of the firm Faculty who got the contract.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you see the daily YouGov polls it might surprise you.

I have no evidence like you that they have handled the crisis in the best way within the country's capabilities. Hopefully we will find that out in the wash up once things become settled.
		
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I’d take yougov polls with a pinch of salt, your pre selected for the survey and they can swing them how they like by selecting people’s past voting habits. Just a theory as I do them everyday and it just seems very coincidental with the questions I get. 
Good to do though as you get an Amazon voucher every couple of months.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They might well be - but as DfT says - I don't live in Scotland.  However the problem for me is not so much the advice or the decisions being made on schooling ...it's about the politicians in Westminster mouthing them.  I don't *need *to trust Sturgeon and her crew in Holyrood.  However I am asked (and need) to believe and trust Johnson and his lot in Westminster.  And by their words and actions over the last 4 years (and indeed to an extent in some matters over the last 6months) I just don't.
		
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Are you sure?  You wouldn't like to repeat that would you, just so we really know that you don't trust Johnson & co.
The way you go on , honestly!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There were very few on here that agreed with the Cummings fiasco, what's that got to do with the general day to day running of the country.

Are you going to shout Cummings everytime the government do something that you disagree with.
		
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The sad fact is SILH and the others are going to have to put up and shut up until we next go to the polls where they can make a change to the way to the government runs the country. All this "I don't trust Johnson" is repetitious and happens on a daily basis on here. I'm with the majority and thought the Cummings episode was a fiasco and sent a poor message at an important time in lockdown but that is now history. It just seems whatever announcement comes up is met with "Is that true?"


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Few international tracing systems are working worse. Some have worked very well indeed. Contact tracing is not a call centre algorithm activity. It needs boots on the ground and local contacts, and PHE could easily have been scaled up by bringing in related staff. The UK does contact tracing pretty well, actually, for example for STDs, but the decision to stop Covid tracing in March, then after the stable door is open, replace it with a Serco/Dido call centre version was a horrible, foreseeable, we said so at the time mistake. Most of the tracing claimed by Dido was done by PHE anyway. The app was always a side show, the main effect of which was to lob a load of money at Cummings' sidekicks' brother who is CEO of the firm Faculty who got the contract.
		
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Could I ask who the “We” are, or have you transferred from working in a pharma company to becoming a member of sage. Although I appreciate your expertise in some of your post I didn’t realise you were now an advisor.


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## chrisd (Aug 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The sad fact is SILH and the others are going to have to put up and shut up until we next go to the polls where they can make a change to the way to the government runs the country. All this "I don't trust Johnson" is repetitious and happens on a daily basis on here. I'm with the majority and thought the Cummings episode was a fiasco and sent a poor message at an important time in lockdown but that is now history. It just seems whatever announcement comes up is met with "Is that true?"
		
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There is no way on earth that SILH is ever going to "put up and shut up" he is clever in his trolling and sadly the mods let him get away with it because he does it much cleverer than most.


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## pendodave (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Could I ask who the “We” are, or have you transferred from working in a pharma company to becoming a member of sage. Although I appreciate your expertise in some of your post I didn’t realise you were now an advisor.
		
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Is this some sort of bizarre deflection? 
I'm genuinely impressed by your desire to continue to defend the indefensible. 
And genuinely curious to see how utterly incompetent the government would need to be to have you admit what a s***show this whole sorry saga has been. 
Hey ho.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Few international tracing systems are working worse. Some have worked very well indeed. Contact tracing is not a call centre algorithm activity. It needs boots on the ground and local contacts, and PHE could easily have been scaled up by bringing in related staff. The UK does contact tracing pretty well, actually, for example for STDs, but the decision to stop Covid tracing in March, then after the stable door is open, replace it with a Serco/Dido call centre version was a horrible, foreseeable, we said so at the time mistake. Most of the tracing claimed by Dido was done by PHE anyway. The app was always a side show, the main effect of which was to lob a load of money at Cummings' sidekicks' brother who is CEO of the firm Faculty who got the contract.
		
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You continue to have absolutely no balance in your political outlook. You do have a lot of knowledge on health matters as being a qualified medical doctor one would expect but when it comes to anything political you are completely blinkered against the Conservatives which is a shame as I'm sure you would add so much more to discussions.  I hold my hands up to having the opposite political preferences to you but I dont jump in with all guns blazing at every opportunity to castigate the opposition.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 10, 2020)

chrisd said:



			There is no way on earth that SILH is ever going to "put up and shut up" he is clever in his trolling and sadly the mods let him get away with it because he does it much cleverer than most.
		
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I’d suggest living in a Democracy nobody needs or should have to “put up and shut up” if people had of done that, we’d still be living in the dark ages. 

I’d also suggest SILH trolling (in your opinion) is no worse than Homers stalking (in my opinion) of SILH.


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You continue to have absolutely no balance in your political outlook. You do have a lot of knowledge on health matters as being a qualified medical doctor one would expect but when it comes to anything political you are completely blinkered against the Conservatives which is a shame as I'm sure you would add so much more to discussions.  I hold my hands up to having the opposite political preferences to you but I dont jump in with all guns blazing at every opportunity to castigate the opposition.
		
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Offer one coherent argument in favour of your position. refute anything I have said above which is untrue. Tell me why the Govt has done anything better than a terrible job with Covid. Don't just accuse me of being against them, tell me why I am wrong. What have I missed that will change my mind when you enlighten me?


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Could I ask who the “We” are, or have you transferred from working in a pharma company to becoming a member of sage. Although I appreciate your expertise in some of your post I didn’t realise you were now an advisor.
		
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I didn't realise your arguments had descended to personal attacks. You are obviously taking this personally. You really shouldn't. That snarky response misses the point(s). I was talking about contact tracing in general and Serco and Dido in particular. Everything I said is in the public domain, including anger at stopping contact tracing, calls to scale up PHE instead, and that most (85%, I think) of cases in the first week of NHS Test and Trace claimed by Dido were in fact traced by PHE. 

The failure of NHS Test and Trace can be easily estimated by someone with GCSE in Maths, starting with the publicly available number of new cases cases that week and a few quick sums leading to a percentage actually traced and engaged. The Govt then wisely stopped publishing all the figures so that people couldn't tell just how bad it was. No medical or pharma credentials are needed to easily find al this stuff. 

I don't see where SAGE comes into it, although I do know one of the guys on the Independent SAGE.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’d take yougov polls with a pinch of salt, your pre selected for the survey and they can swing them how they like by selecting people’s past voting habits. Just a theory as I do them everyday and it just seems very coincidental with the questions I get.
Good to do though as you get an Amazon voucher every couple of months.
		
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I take all polls with a pinch of salt, I just countered SILH quoted poll. We all know there are stats & there are stats.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Is this some sort of bizarre deflection?
I'm genuinely impressed by your desire to continue to defend the indefensible.
And genuinely curious to see how utterly incompetent the government would need to be to have you admit what a s***show this whole sorry saga has been.
Hey ho.
		
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What deflection, what defence, half the country can defend half the country can attack, until all the facts come about we will not know.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I didn't realise your arguments had descended to personal attacks. You are obviously taking this personally. You really shouldn't. That snarky response misses the point(s). I was talking about contact tracing in general and Serco and Dido in particular. Everything I said is in the public domain, including anger at stopping contact tracing, calls to scale up PHE instead, and that most (85%, I think) of cases in the first week of NHS Test and Trace claimed by Dido were in fact traced by PHE.

The failure of NHS Test and Trace can be easily estimated by someone with GCSE in Maths, starting with the publicly available number of new cases cases that week and a few quick sums leading to a percentage actually traced and engaged. The Govt then wisely stopped publishing all the figures so that people couldn't tell just how bad it was. No medical or pharma credentials are needed to easily find al this stuff.

I don't see where SAGE comes into it, although I do know one of the guys on the Independent SAGE.
		
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Nothing personal in anything I have posted, I admitted that you had expertise in some areas but like me, none in others. Me thinks you are the one who wants to be personal.

Independent  SAGE, is this an official group of advisors or a group set up by those with apposing views of the government advisors and have nothing to do with the SAGE group.

PS- PHE are part of the test and trace strategy.


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## drdel (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I didn't realise your arguments had descended to personal attacks. You are obviously taking this personally. You really shouldn't. That snarky response misses the point(s). I was talking about contact tracing in general and Serco and Dido in particular. Everything I said is in the public domain, including anger at stopping contact tracing, calls to scale up PHE instead, and that most (85%, I think) of cases in the first week of NHS Test and Trace claimed by Dido were in fact traced by PHE.

The failure of NHS Test and Trace can be easily estimated by someone with GCSE in Maths, starting with the publicly available number of new cases cases that week and a few quick sums leading to a percentage actually traced and engaged. The Govt then wisely stopped publishing all the figures so that people couldn't tell just how bad it was. No medical or pharma credentials are needed to easily find al this stuff.

I don't see where SAGE comes into it, although I do know one of the guys on the Independent SAGE.
		
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IMO You post wilth unnecessary aggresion and when others respond in a similar style you react. Some if the content is often interesting but some is just stridently written 'after the event' opinions

Pandemics are handled by politicians with input from medics and economists et al. Each has their view but in the end the nation's economics will always eventually drive policy since capitalism reigns. Any PM or Government will never be proactive as the political risk is too high, just look worldwide at other democracies.

There is no point deriding policies developed from the past when confronted with a novel virus. Decisions will be wrong with the wisdom of hindsight, its a sport of the media and unintelligent.

Galbraith said it well "one of the greatest pieces of economic wisdom is to know what you don't know" and to allow and manage the uncertainty as best we can.


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO You post wilth unnecessary aggresion and when others respond in a similar style you react. Some if the content is often interesting but some is just stridently written 'after the event' opinions

Pandemics are handled by politicians with input from medics and economists et al. Each has their view but in the end the nation's economics will always eventually drive policy since capitalism reigns. Any PM or Government will never be proactive as the political risk is too high, just look worldwide at other democracies.

There is no point deriding policies developed from the past when confronted with a novel virus. Decisions will be wrong with the wisdom of hindsight, its a sport of the media and unintelligent.

Galbraith said it well "one of the greatest pieces of economic wisdom is to know what you don't know" and to allow and manage the uncertainty as best we can.
		
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Dr Del accuses me of having written stridently. Looks up 'irony' in the dictionary. 

You seem to be the one attacking, and not for the first time. When it comes to adding substance, you get a bit quieter, though.

As I have said before, this is NOT hindsight. Much of it was said repeatedly, loudly and publicly with foresight, some of it was even practised for a century beforehand. The WHO publicly called on the UK to take action. Some issues with the novel virus (although it isn't completely novel) are dealt with using standard traditional principles. These were abandoned. Since you are a big fan of the Johari window, then you will know that there were quite a few known unknowns with Covid, but some of the policy overlooked the fact they were unknowns.

Simply dismissing it all as hindsight and a novel experience is grade 1 gaslighting.


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## chrisd (Aug 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d suggest living in a Democracy nobody needs or should have to “put up and shut up” if people had of done that, we’d still be living in the dark ages. 

I’d also suggest SILH trolling (in your opinion) is no worse than Homers stalking (in my opinion) of SILH.
		
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I'm happy to agree with you Paul - I'd be happy if they stopped both


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Offer one coherent argument in favour of your position. refute anything I have said above which is untrue. Tell me why the Govt has done anything better than a terrible job with Covid. Don't just accuse me of being against them, tell me why I am wrong. What have I missed that will change my mind when you enlighten me?
		
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The Government make decisions with Covid based on expert advice.  You seem to be of the opinion that everything they have done is completely wrong so they are either ignoring expert advice or the advice is always flawed.

You have said a number of times the Government had a reckless policy of herd immunity, from my recollection  the Chief Medical and Scientific Officers were recommending this and the Government pulled out when they saw the potential death rates.  

You always take the high ground of hindsight and never suggest something was handled reasonably or at the time it was difficult to handle the huge logistics of procurement and operations, or that the information available at the time was affected by the lack of experience of such a pandemic.  

Bad decisions will have been made but it cant be all bad, there has to be things like the Nightingale Hospitals that were good incentives.


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## funkycoldmedina (Aug 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO You post wilth unnecessary aggresion and when others respond in a similar style you react. Some if the content is often interesting but some is just stridently written 'after the event' opinions

Pandemics are handled by politicians with input from medics and economists et al. Each has their view but in the end the nation's economics will always eventually drive policy since capitalism reigns. Any PM or Government will never be proactive as the political risk is too high, just look worldwide at other democracies.

There is no point deriding policies developed from the past when confronted with a novel virus.* Decisions will be wrong with the wisdom of hindsight, its a sport of the media and unintelligent.*

Galbraith said it well "one of the greatest pieces of economic wisdom is to know what you don't know" and to allow and manage the uncertainty as best we can.
		
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5 COBRA meetings missed right at the very beginning of all this showed how serious this was being taken early on, the science was there and wasn't being listened to well enough. We had a head start as other developed nations were 4-6 weeks ahead and we were still caught out and have been playing virus control catch up ever since.
Also if you're going to attack somebody for their aggressive style which you have regularly done with this poster,  there's no need to put in a passive aggressive point like the highlighted part in . Plenty of intelligent scientists knew what was coming but it was falling on deaf ears for too long.


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The Government make decisions with Covid based on expert advice.  You seem to be of the opinion that everything they have done is completely wrong so they are either ignoring expert advice or the advice is always flawed.

You have said a number of times the Government had a reckless policy of herd immunity, from my recollection  the Chief Medical and Scientific Officers were recommending this and the Government pulled out when they saw the potential death rates.

You always take the high ground of hindsight and never suggest something was handled reasonably or at the time it was difficult to handle the huge logistics of procurement and operations, or that the information available at the time was affected by the lack of experience of such a pandemic.

Bad decisions will have been made but it cant be all bad, there has to be things like the Nightingale Hospitals that were good incentives.
		
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It isn’t hindsight. There was plenty of foresight and structures in place which could have been used. The Govt’s received scientific advice from SAGE but SAGE is not very independent. Most of the membership are on Govt payrolls. There have been plenty of critics, including Jeremy Hunt, for example.

The herd immunity story needs to be looked at carefully. In my opinion, Vallance was pushed out as the spokesman but was not the instigator. I can’t believe that a physician of his standing, or Chris Whitty, would propose such a plan without much much better data that it would even work.

I never criticised the Nightingale Hospitals which were not a bad idea although they did pull some resources from other London hospitals when they could ill afford it. The fact they had few patients was a risk worth taking and better than the alternative.

But amongst all the ‘it's a new virus’ and ‘nobody knew how to deal with it’ someone needs to explain how Germany, New Zealand and S. Korea did much better. In my opinion the answers are actually very simple snd the U.K. was strongly advised with foresight to do the same but didn’t.


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## Old Skier (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It isn’t hindsight. There was plenty of foresight and structures in place which could have been used. The Govt’s received scientific advice from SAGE but SAGE is not very independent. Most of the membership are on Govt payrolls. There have been plenty of critics, including Jeremy Hunt, for example.

The herd immunity story needs to be looked at carefully. In my opinion, Valkance was pushed out as the spokesman but was not the instigator. I can’t believe that a physician of his standing, or Chris Whitty, would propose such a plan without much much better data that it would even work.

I never criticised the Nightingale Hospitals which were not a bad idea although they did pull some resources from other London hospitals when they could ill afford it. The fact they had few patients was a risk worth taking and better than the alternative.

But amongst all the ‘it's a new virus’ and ‘nobody knew how to deal with it’ someone needs to explain how Germany, New Zealand and S. Korea did much better. In my opinion the answers are actually very simple snd the U.K. was strongly advised with foresight to do the same but didn’t.
		
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Are you suggesting that because SAGE were not independent they would rather toe the party line and deliberately put the lives of thousands in danger. Independent or not, they were professionals in their field and would have been quick to blow the whistle if the government deliberately ignored them putting everyone at risk.


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## Ethan (Aug 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are you suggesting that because SAGE were not independent they would rather toe the party line and deliberately put the lives of thousands in danger. Independent or not, they were professionals in their field and would have been quick to blow the whistle if the government deliberately ignored them putting everyone at risk.
		
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We already know from the minutes that SAGE have offered advice, somewhat nuanced, which wasn’t taken. In the last few Number 10 briefings, you could see differences between Whitty, Vallance, van Tam and the politicians. 

But it is a basic principle of science that you take into account biases and conflicts of interest and seek peer review. SAGE members have clear limitations on their ability to speak out. The Imperial model also lacked peer review or they would have come up with their numbers a lot faster.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			We already know from the minutes that SAGE have offered advice, somewhat nuanced, which wasn’t taken. In the last few Number 10 briefings, you could see differences between Whitty, Vallance, van Tam and the politicians.

But it is a basic principle of science that you take into account biases and conflicts of interest and seek peer review. SAGE members have clear limitations on their ability to speak out. The Imperial model also lacked peer review or they would have come up with their numbers a lot faster.
		
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Why do you think Politicians would ignore the advice of SAGE and I cant believe the members would hold back if they believed the government were being reckless.  What would they have to gain, they were not trying to open up the ecconomy at that point.

You know that it's not possible to make comparisons between NZ and the UK, for so many reasons they are incompatible.  Germany have done well but I am not convinced we are recording cases the same way and eventually there will be some clarity there.

I have to stand by my  comments that you do not use any balance in your views and have a blind hatred for the Conservatives to a level it clouds your ability to be fair and unbiased.  You were the same with Brexit.


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## ExRabbit (Aug 11, 2020)

Please stop arguing with Ethan - he is always right. I think. Maybe... mmmmm


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you think Politicians would ignore the advice of SAGE and I cant believe the members would hold back if they believed the government were being reckless.  What would they have to gain, they were not trying to open up the ecconomy at that point.

You know that it's not possible to make comparisons between NZ and the UK, for so many reasons they are incompatible.  Germany have done well but I am not convinced we are recording cases the same way and eventually there will be some clarity there.

I have to stand by my  comments that you do not use any balance in your views and have a blind hatred for the Conservatives to a level it clouds your ability to be fair and unbiased.  You were the same with Brexit.
		
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Nonsense. Germany can count the number of people in their ICU departments, and there were a lot fewer than here. People at other stages of disease are proportional in  umber. There is no doubt from any credible person that their Covid experience is an order of magnitude better than here. If you believe otherwise, then there is no point in trying to discuss anything with you in a rational manner.

As for NZ, it is perfectly possible to compare. They have centres of high pollution density, presumably upper explanation, but the basic principle is that if you do not let the disease in, you have less of a problem with subsequent spread. We could have done the same here but didn't.

As for Brexit, I make no apology for arguing that it is a disastrous idea born of a braindead ideology which has already done much harm to this country and now will severely damage any prospect of a Brexit recovery. No credible economist believes otherwise. If you know of one, please tell. 

At least I use facts and explain my arguments so that others can judge them. It is therefore not 'blind'. You just arbitrarily dismiss in a few words without any substance. I think it is therefore obvious you have an unquestioning support for the Conservatives and are unable to actually explain why, it is just a blind faith. Of that is not true, please enlighten me with examples.


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## DRW (Aug 11, 2020)

Quite a comparison to do UK with NZ, I always wished we had taken a more aggressive stance earlier but to compare them is almost impossible.

There are massive differences between the two countries and economies.

We have far greater integration with the world economy with vastly greater numbers. 

The numbers that would have had to have been dealt would not have been possible.

I think NZ comparisons are worthless.

However don't get me wrong, we could have done it much better, much much better.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			Quite a comparison to do UK with NZ, I always wished we had taken a more aggressive stance earlier but to compare them is almost impossible.

There are massive differences between the two countries and economies.

We have far greater integration with the world economy with vastly greater numbers.

The numbers that would have had to have been dealt would not have been possible.

I think NZ comparisons are worthless.

However don't get me wrong, we could have done it much better, much much better.
		
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The comparison is valid in that there are basically two stages of dealing with the virus. First, stop as much of it getting in as you can. Second, contain what has got in. You can apply that basic model to anywhere, whether an island or not and whether big or small. It is not saying that the countries are similar in population or population density (although that is misused as an explanation) or economy. 

NZ jumped on the first part, with tight border controls fast. As a result they massively reduced the amount of circulating virus. The US tried the same, to a certain extent, although did not quarantine returning Americans, but failed badly on the containment part.

The UK could have imposed the same border controls in March that they imposed in June, and if policed properly that would very likely have reduced the amount of virus that came in and later circulated. Then that makes your job of testing, tracing dn dealing with cases a lot easier.

Funnily enough, some of those (not you) who say we can't compare with NZ or Germany are very happy to compare with Sweden and argue we did not need a lockdown. I think they picked their desired conclusion and worked back to find supporting evidence.


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## drdel (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The comparison is valid in that there are basically two stages of dealing with the virus. First, stop as much of it getting in as you can. Second, contain what has got in. You can apply that basic model to anywhere, whether an island or not and whether big or small.

NZ jumped on the first part, with tight border controls fast. As a result they massively reduced the amount of circulating virus. The US tried the same, to a certain extent, although did not quarantine returning Americans, but failed badly on the containment part.

The UK could have imposed the same border controls in March that they imposed in June, and if policed properly that would very likely have reduced the amount of virus that came in and later circulated. Then that makes your job of testing, tracing dn dealing with cases a lot easier.

Funnily enough, some of those (not you) who say we can't compare with NZ or Germany are very happy to compare with Sweden and argue we did not need a lockdown. I think they picked their desired conclusion and worked back to find supporting evidence.
		
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Comparing the UK with NZ (a population less than Scotland, and almost the same as Manchester) is simply just not valid and is just silly

More people commute in and out of London daily than live in NZ. The UK is an international transit hub, NZ is not. the health policies and logistic challenges for a population of 4.6mill. is vastly different to that of 70mill. Closing the UK borders 'overnight' without reasonable notice was impossible given the numbers of people in transit and the economic consequences.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Nonsense. Germany can count the number of people in their ICU departments, and there were a lot fewer than here. People at other stages of disease are proportional in  umber. There is no doubt from any credible person that their Covid experience is an order of magnitude better than here. If you believe otherwise, then there is no point in trying to discuss anything with you in a rational manner.

As for NZ, it is perfectly possible to compare. They have centres of high pollution density, presumably upper explanation, but the basic principle is that if you do not let the disease in, you have less of a problem with subsequent spread. We could have done the same here but didn't.

As for Brexit, I make no apology for arguing that it is a disastrous idea born of a braindead ideology which has already done much harm to this country and now will severely damage any prospect of a Brexit recovery. No credible economist believes otherwise. If you know of one, please tell.

At least I use facts and explain my arguments so that others can judge them. It is therefore not 'blind'. You just arbitrarily dismiss in a few words without any substance. I think it is therefore obvious you have an unquestioning support for the Conservatives and are unable to actually explain why, it is just a blind faith. Of that is not true, please enlighten me with examples.
		
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There you go again blinded with prejudice. You have absolutely nothing but vitriolic castigation for the Government and EVERYTHING they do, never a mention of doing something good or even reasonably.  How can anyone discuss a subject with someone so politically blinkered.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Comparing the UK with NZ (a population less than Scotland, and almost the same as Manchester) is simply just not valid and is just silly

More people commute in and out of London daily than live in NZ. The UK is an international transit hub, NZ is not. the health policies and logistic challenges for a population of 4.6mill. is vastly different to that of 70mill. Closing the UK borders 'overnight' without reasonable notice was impossible given the numbers of people in transit and the economic consequences.
		
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Actually the health policies and logistics are very similar, just a matter of scale. Closing the borders is perfectly possible and does not need to be overnight, although the recent addition of Spain to quarantine countries was done same day despite many Brits being in Spain at the time. 

As for the economic consequences, those have been dire already and won't be getting much better anytime soon.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 11, 2020)




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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There you go again blinded with prejudice. You have absolutely nothing but vitriolic castigation for the Government and EVERYTHING they do, never a mention of doing something good or even reasonably.  How can anyone discuss a subject with someone so politically blinkered.
		
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I have repeatedly asked you to tell me where specifically I am wrong and you are unable or unwilling to do so. If you want to see political blinkering looks like, get a mirror. Otherwise spare me your hypocrisy.

Also, click on my username and press the button marked 'Ignore'. That'll help your obviously dangerously high blood pressure and save you from having to find other phrases since now that you have descended to 'vitriolic castigation', I fear you will have to recycle old material and no comic likes to do that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Actually the health policies and logistics are very similar, just a matter of scale. Closing the borders is perfectly possible and does not need to be overnight, although the recent addition of Spain to quarantine countries was done same day despite many Brits being in Spain at the time.

As for the economic consequences, those have been dire already and won't be getting much better anytime soon.
		
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And a country of 5m seemed to be mostly able to manage the issues associated with having a city of 1.6m - one third of the population of the whole country.


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## DRW (Aug 11, 2020)

We now have an authorised vaccine from Russia.

Wonder if its good news...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I have repeatedly asked you to tell me where specifically I am wrong and you are unable or unwilling to do so. If you want to see political blinkering looks like, get a mirror. Otherwise spare me your hypocrisy.

Also, click on my username and press the button marked 'Ignore'. That'll help your obviously dangerously high blood pressure and save you from having to find other phrases since now that you have descended to 'vitriolic castigation', I fear you will have to recycle old material and no comic likes to do that.
		
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There we go, I give you reasons where you are being blinkered and you then suggest I havent.  As a medical Doctor I find it worrying you make sarcastic comments on someones health. Unbelievable!

I can only suggest that 'Physician heal thineself' and click that button 🙄


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There we go, I give you reasons where you are being blinkered and you then suggest I havent.  As a medical Doctor I find it worrying you make sarcastic comments on someones health. Unbelievable!

I can only suggest that 'Physician heal thineself' and click that button 🙄
		
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I don't know anything about your health other than some assumptions based on observing your aggression and rage. I am quite chilled, thanks. I can do this all day stopped only by boredom.

Oh and you gave no reasons why you thought I was blinkered, you just ranted. Tell me why I am wrong about any specific argument I use to say the Govt has done a bad job.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			We now have an authorised vaccine from Russia.

Wonder if its good news...
		
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There isn't a bargepole long enough for me to touch that vaccine.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And a country of 5m seemed to be mostly able to manage the issues associated with having a city of 1.6m - one third of the population of the whole country.
		
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And 20% of London with a tiny fraction of the international movement of people.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And a country of 5m seemed to be mostly able to manage the issues associated with having a city of 1.6m - one third of the population of the whole country.
		
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The population question is a false objection. Funny enough they don't use it with Germany or S. Korea.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I don't know anything about your health other than some assumptions based on observing your aggression and rage. I am quite chilled, thanks. I can do this all day stopped only by boredom.
		
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If you dont know anything about my health then why mention my blood pressure. Aggression and rage! Oh dear!!


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you dont know anything about my health then why mention my blood pressure. Aggression and rage! Oh dear!!
		
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How would I know you have blood pressure? OK, i know you are a Brexiter, so that is a clue, I suppose, and 'vitriolic castigation', mmm, sounds like you want to pack as much outrage into an antiquated term as possible, so that is another clue.


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## drdel (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Actually the health policies and logistics are very similar, *just a matter of scale.* Closing the borders is perfectly possible and does not need to be overnight, although the recent addition of Spain to quarantine countries was done same day despite many Brits being in Spain at the time.

As for the economic consequences, those have *been dire already and won't be getting much better anytime soon.*

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"...just a matter of scale." This is quite a ridiculous statement, the procurement, distribution and logistical issues are widely different and it shows a lack of comprehension of the subjects.

Comparisons are  pretty futile as the recording methods, data integrity and criteria vary internationally. it is fine to assess the various approaches taken by the medics but each country/city starts from a different position, population demographics and homogeneity are unique, the proportion of of ethnic minorities and their population density and integration/distribution are also confounding variable.

Of course we may have done things better; but we didn't.

Our economic position is "not dire" and using this language for effect just shows a poor understanding of international economics. Yes it is serious, of course it is and the UK is not pretending otherwise - no country holds enough reserves of the stuff needed; perhaps we should but we didn't. The UK will be more agile without the drag of the EU. The EU has broken its own rules on borrowing and has applied its rule differently in France and Germany who are the main beneficiaries of the Ponsi system. The EU is now built on debt and the difference in the economic structures of the Southern and Eastern members will begin to raise even more tensions. International economists have long derided the EU's ability to develop a coherent set of policies but at the end of the day it is a internal market protection scheme that has mostly benefited Germany and France ( the CAP is the biggest budget item with 80% going to France).

The medical profession has admitted they now know more about caring for COVID patients and the mortality rate has reduced; nobody is suggesting they got it wrong because people died unnecessarily before they understood the treatment correctly.

Lessons will be learnt.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			We now have an authorised vaccine from Russia.

Wonder if its good news...
		
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Would you be in the queue to use it? . I'm not sure if I would until it had been tested elsewhere and cleared.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			"...just a matter of scale." This is quite a ridiculous statement, the procurement, distribution and logistical issues are widely different and it shows a lack of comprehension of the subjects.

Comparisons are  pretty futile as the recording methods, data integrity and criteria vary internationally. it is fine to assess the various approaches taken by the medics but each country/city starts from a different position, population demographics and homogeneity are unique, the proportion of of ethnic minorities and their population density and integration/distribution are also confounding variable.

Of course we may have done things better; but we didn't.

Our economic position is "not dire" and using this language for effect just shows a poor understanding of international economics. Yes it is serious, of course it is and the UK is not pretending otherwise - no country holds enough reserves of the stuff needed; perhaps we should but we didn't. The UK will be more agile without the drag of the EU. The EU has broken its own rules on borrowing and has applied its rule differently in France and Germany who are the main beneficiaries of the Ponsi system. The EU is now built on debt and the difference in the economic structures of the Southern and Eastern members will begin to raise even more tensions. International economists have long derided the EU's ability to develop a coherent set of policies but at the end of the day it is a internal market protection scheme that has mostly benefited Germany and France ( the CAP is the biggest budget item with 80% going to France).

The medical profession has admitted they now know more about caring for COVID patients and the mortality rate has reduced; nobody is suggesting they got it wrong because people died unnecessarily before they understood the treatment correctly.

Lessons will be learnt.
		
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International comparisons have been part of health surveillance and the understanding of disease for centuries. Much has been learnt from it and the quality of data and systems for understanding it has improved a lot in recent years. The virus is the same virus in different countries. Blithely dismissing international comparisons because not all countries are the same is simply wrong.

As for the economy it most certainly is dire. Dire. More dire. And. This.

Nobody in their right mind think Brexit will help matters. The best case from Govt is that the effects will be difficult to separate from the white noise of Covid. Ponzi is spelt with a 'z'. Govt funding systems are all pyramid schemes, by the way. People pay taxes now they are paying for benefits later, but today's taxes pay today's benefits, not your future benefits. The NHS is a massive Ponzi scheme by your thinking. Calling things Ponzi schemes ads no insight except to identify the writer as a right winger. 

The last little jab against the medical profession is revealing. The medical profession is not one united homogeneous system, but setting that aside, you are saying that they learned and adapted to respond better. They also started treating Covid using well established and tested principles, but responded to new data. That is exactly the issue. If only the Govt had done the same. You have made my argument for me.


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## drdel (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			International comparisons have been part of health surveillance and the understanding of disease for centuries. Much has been learnt from it and the quality of data and systems for understanding it has improved a lot in recent years. The virus is the same virus in different countries. Blithely dismissing international comparisons because not all countries are the same is simply wrong.

As for the economy it most certainly is dire. Dire. More dire. And. This.

Nobody in their right mind think Brexit will help matters. The best case from Govt is that the effects will be difficult to separate from the white noise of Covid. Ponzi is spelt with a 'z'. Govt funding systems are all pyramid schemes, by the way. People pay taxes now they are paying for benefits later, but today's taxes pay today's benefits, not your future benefits. The NHS is a massive Ponzi scheme by your thinking. Calling things Ponzi schemes ads no insight except to identify the writer as a right winger.

The last little jab against the medical profession is revealing. The medical profession is not one united homogeneous system, but setting that aside, you are saying that they learned and adapted to respond better. They also started treating Covid using well established and tested principles, but responded to new data. That is exactly the issue. If only the Govt had done the same. You have made my argument for me.
		
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It might be an idea to read the full sentence and think.

I guess you're too intent on a put down.

No point in replying to your posts. Have fun.


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## DRW (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Would you be in the queue to use it? . I'm not sure if I would until it had been tested elsewhere and cleared.
		
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As you say needs more testing and some valid test results being issued for review(don't think any have been issued still ).

In some ways its exciting and concerning and the next chapter to this story is going to start with vaccinations. I hope it works for the people who are going to be given it.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			We now have an authorised vaccine from Russia.

Wonder if its good news...
		
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I’ll be having no vaccine for a good few years wherever it’s from! But cheers anyway vlad!


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## User62651 (Aug 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’ll be having no vaccine for a good few years wherever it’s from! But cheers anyway vlad!
		
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Is that not a little presumptive? If a vaccine is developed (in the West, not a Russian one) and you don't take it Covid may not allow you the chance to wait a good few years! 
It is a dilemma for a lot of us I grant you.
If we didn't accept vaccines for any number of historic unpleasant diseases where would we be?


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## DRW (Aug 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’ll be having no vaccine for a good few years wherever it’s from! But cheers anyway vlad!
		
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## Jamesbrown (Aug 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Is that not a little presumptive? If a vaccine is developed (in the West, not a Russian one) and you don't take it Covid may not allow you the chance to wait a good few years!
It is a dilemma for a lot of us I grant you.
If we didn't accept vaccines for any number of historic unpleasant diseases where would we be?
		
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I’d take any vaccine from Russia to Canada, just not something that’s been rushed with 0 years data. 
I’ll let others be the guinea pig. I’m contempt with getting Covid but I don’t fancy some unknown side defect.


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## Billysboots (Aug 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			We now have an authorised vaccine from Russia.

Wonder if its good news...
		
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Called Sputnik V, apparently.

All sounds a bit too Thunderbirds for my liking..............


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’d take any vaccine from Russia to Canada, just not something that’s been rushed with 0 years data.
I’ll let others be the guinea pig. I’m contempt with getting Covid but I don’t fancy some unknown side defect.
		
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Of course, they've just popped one out of the cupboard. All these countries are doing that, aren't they? 
They haven't done any research, trials, even more trials etc, worked night and day etc.
They just want to put stuff in you , to control you, and make you a zombie in 5 years time so you will do everything they say!🙄

I'm no expert, but I understand that unless a significant number have the vaccine, the disease will live on and possibly flourish. 
There may come a time when results show it works if you take it, but is not eradicated ( a la smallpox) unless enough do.
In that circumstance, would you not feel you are contributing to Covid deaths by "claiming your human right not to have it?"
And would you bleat if you were forced to have it?

Perhaps you could be given an option? Have the vaccine and live in an (almost) free of Covid country. --- or leave.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 11, 2020)

If you have a vaccine you’ll be fine, it’s the ones with out the vaccine that may die. 
I’m not prepared to have a rushed out vaccine for a storm in a teacup virus that statistically I won’t die of and have more chances of getting some side effect that I’ll probably get no compensation for. 
I’m willing to have the vaccine. Just not immediately after being rolled out. That’d be the same for any vaccine, cancer, heart disease. You name it.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			It might be an idea to read the full sentence and think.

I guess you're too intent on a put down.

*No point in replying to your posts.* Have fun.
		
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Great. We finally agree on something. Feel free not to reply to this, but you telling me that it might be an idea to read the full sentence and think - Brasso is good for that neck.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			If you have a vaccine you’ll be fine, it’s the ones with out the vaccine that may die.
I’m not prepared to have a rushed out vaccine for a storm in a teacup virus that statistically I won’t die of and have more chances of getting some side effect that I’ll probably get no compensation for.
I’m willing to have the vaccine. Just not immediately after being rolled out. That’d be the same for any vaccine, cancer, heart disease. You name it.
		
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If they publish the data, including the mechanism of action for the vaccine, data on antibody response and infection rates in treated vs controls, safety data, and make some available for analysis in a reliable UK, EU or US centre, then the world should look at it with an open mind. I assume this is a conventional old-fashioned (but nothing wrong with that) vaccine which targets part of the protein coat rather than a newer RNA type vaccine. It is perfectly possible they saved a lot of time by cutting through bureaucracy, but other more troubling short cuts are available too.


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## funkycoldmedina (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If they publish the data, including the mechanism of action for the vaccine, data on antibody response and infection rates in treated vs controls, safety data, and make some available for analysis in a reliable UK, EU or US centre, then the world should look at it with an open mind. I assume this is a conventional old-fashioned (but nothing wrong with that) vaccine which targets part of the protein coat rather than a newer RNA type vaccine. It is perfectly possible they saved a lot of time by cutting through bureaucracy, but other more troubling short cuts are available too.
		
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They probably scavenged the IP of a number of different projects around the world through hacks


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			They probably scavenged the IP of a number of different projects around the world through hacks
		
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Very possibly, although to be honest if they used good IP, makes it more possible it is effective.

I remember a few years ago, the company I worked for produced a new chemical intended to be the basis for a medicine. The design was published in a chemistry journal as was the usual practice. About 8 weeks later, we got an email from a company in China saying they had made the chemical, were able to make it in kg quantities (quite a lot) and asked if we wanted to buy some.


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## User62651 (Aug 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			If you have a vaccine you’ll be fine, it’s the ones with out the vaccine that may die.
I’m not prepared to have a rushed out vaccine* for a storm in a teacup virus that statistically I won’t die of *and have more chances of getting some side effect that I’ll probably get no compensation for.
I’m willing to have the vaccine. Just not immediately after being rolled out. That’d be the same for any vaccine, cancer, heart disease. You name it.
		
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Hmmm......reminds me very much of a certain blonde haired reality-denier living in Downing Street back in February/March. 

Half a million deaths (we know of) and a lot more very sick people in a little over half a year is not be sniffed at. The virus can kill (not just old people), is resilient and hard to kill and may or may not mutate further to more serious strains.


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2020)

What was the worst death toll, apart from Spanish flu, that hit its number in just over 2 years? 641,000. What's the current death toll for CV-19? 741,000 in less than 8 months. Imagine what that number would have been if there hadn't been some very aggressive lockdowns in a number of countries!! How many died in a little city called Bergamo? 16,000+. Ask Italian Outcast what Bergamo was like at the height of the first outbreak there.

And here in Southern Spain the ICU in Almeria city hospital is full, AGAIN.

Seriously, all you deniers needs to go and find a CV-19 patient and have a good sniff of the air they are breathing. If you survive, great. If you don't, well you asked for it by being Darwin's prime examples of knuckle draggers.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What was the worst death toll, apart from Spanish flu, that hit its number in just over 2 years? 641,000. What's the current death toll for CV-19? 741,000 in less than 8 months. Imagine what that number would have been if there hadn't been some very aggressive lockdowns in a number of countries!! How many died in a little city called Bergamo? 16,000+. Ask Italian Outcast what Bergamo was like at the height of the first outbreak there.

And here in Southern Spain the ICU in Almeria city hospital is full, AGAIN.

Seriously, all you deniers needs to go and find a CV-19 patient and have a good sniff of the air they are breathing. If you survive, great. If you don't, well you asked for it by being Darwin's prime examples of knuckle draggers.
		
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I’d check your numbers on the little city. I think your quoting the figures for the region Bergamo is in - Lombardy which has a population of 10mil. So 0.16% of the population of Lombardy died. 

I’m not a denier, the virus is there, and I’ve probably already had it. (Would be interesting to find out) There’s just more troubling things to worry about. I just look at the odds, and they are in most peoples favour. Including mine. Unfortunately the media have blown it out of proportion, driven fear and if it wasn’t reported you wouldn’t even know it existed.


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’d check your numbers on the little city. I think your quoting the figures for the region Bergamo is in - Lombardy which has a population of 10mil. So 0.16% of the population of Lombardy died.

I’m not a denier, the virus is there, and I’ve probably already had it. (Would be interesting to find out) There’s just more troubling things to worry about. I just look at the odds, and they are in most peoples favour. Including mine. Unfortunately the media have blown it out of proportion, driven fear and if it wasn’t reported you wouldn’t even know it existed.
		
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That's your choice, and good luck. You have your interpretation and I have mine. We all have our own views on what we'll accept. The virus will have up to 6 ripples(spikes) of varying degrees. Hopefully neither of us will be in one. But I wonder what those numbers would have been without  lockdown? What was the R=number at the point of lockdown and how does it extrapolate out if there hadn't been a lockdown?

BTW, have a look at the UK's worst flu deaths numbers, excluding Covid, and where the numbers stand now. As much as we could all add a little spin to those numbers, and their time frame, the numbers are hard facts.


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## Foxholer (Aug 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			Comparing the UK with NZ (a population less than Scotland, *and almost the same as Manchester*) is simply just not valid and is just silly

More people commute in and out of London daily than live in NZ. The UK is an international transit hub, NZ is not. the health policies and logistic challenges for a population of *4.6mill*. is vastly different to that of 70mill. Closing the UK borders 'overnight' without reasonable notice was impossible given the numbers of people in transit and the economic consequences.
		
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While I agree with the gist of your post, the (bold) numbers you use for comparison, particularly the 'Manchester' one are so seriously wrong, it indicates unwarranted exaggeration!
FWIW. NZ has always been prepared to 'close its borders "overnight"' in order to protect its, primarily agricultural/farming economy from the likes of Foot and Mouth disease.
Oh! And just noticed Auckland is back in lockdown after new cases - demonstrating how even 'the best' response is not perfect!


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## drdel (Aug 11, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree with the gist of your post, the (bold) numbers you use for comparison, particularly the 'Manchester' one are so seriously wrong, it indicates unwarranted exaggeration!
FWIW. NZ has always been prepared to 'close its borders "overnight"' in order to protect its, primarily agricultural/farming economy from the likes of Foot and Mouth disease.
Oh! And just noticed Auckland is back in lockdown after new cases - demonstrating how even 'the best' response is not perfect!
		
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You're right a bit disingenuous I agree: better add Liverpool (1.9m) to Manchester (2.9m).


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 11, 2020)

drdel said:



			You're right a bit disingenuous I agree: better add Liverpool (1.9m) to Manchester (2.9m).
		
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Should have quoted West Midlands Metropolitan Zone i.e. Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry, Sandwell, Walsall and Dudley, and Solihull. 

Population 5.8 million.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 11, 2020)

Swinney done a complete U turn on Scottish exam results..........not fair for about 60,000 kids now turns into not fair for generations of kids. IMO

There is an emotional standard in his decision in that kids should not be disadvantaged by covid.
Employers/Universities will now look sceptically at candidates with 2020 results.

England you have this coming to you, be warned.

Update....Flippin hilarious ....BBC Scotland now critical of Swinney for making exam results too easy.
Make up your minds you idiots,


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## AmandaJR (Aug 11, 2020)

Can anyone answer if Portugal has always been a country which required 14 days self isolation on return?


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Can anyone answer if Portugal has always been a country which required 14 days self isolation on return?
		
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I believe since this ruling was brought in they have always been on the list. Much to their annoyance.

Have you got a holiday booked to go there.


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## Foxholer (Aug 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Can anyone answer if Portugal has always been a country which required 14 days self isolation on return?
		
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Yes... No!

But that hasn't stopped a work colleague returning from Madiera (Portuguese) ignoring the 14 days self isolation demand and returning to work the day after he, eventually, made it 'home'. And I believe it was more than a coincidence that a Polish workmate who HAD been self-isolating after returning from Poland (caught by the announcement made while he was away!) returned the day after!


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## AmandaJR (Aug 11, 2020)

Thanks guys. My dentist is Portugese and they cancelled my appointment today claiming he was having to self-isolate as he travelled to Portugal and whilst there the rules were changed.

Lying gits!

Edit - or are they...the ruling is only a couple of weeks old? Prior to that it wasn't required??


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

You do need to quarantine when coming back from Portugal. Your dentist is right, Foxholer's work colleague is wrong and should be sent home by his employer. There is word that the rules may be relaxed soon, but still in place for now.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You do need to quarantine when coming back from Portugal. Your dentist is right, Foxholer's work colleague is wrong and should be sent home by his employer. There is word that the rules may be relaxed soon, but still in place for now.
		
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They stated the rule changed after he'd travelled there which I think is a fib?


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			They stated the rule changed after he'd travelled there which I think is a fib?
		
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Me too

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ies-exempt-without-list-air-bridges-news/amp/

Check the date. I don't think it has been lifted at all since introduced for Portugal


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Me too

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ies-exempt-without-list-air-bridges-news/amp/

Check the date. I don't think it has been lifted at all since introduced for Portugal
		
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Looks like it has been in place since early July. Perhaps something changed for people arriving in Portugal, or they were led to believe that the rules for people coming back into the UK would be lifted.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Me too

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ies-exempt-without-list-air-bridges-news/amp/

Check the date. I don't think it has been lifted at all since introduced for Portugal
		
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That's what I thought. So I had root canal and a temporary filling which needed completion asap and they tell me he can't fit me in until 23rd September. Flipping joke. Pay privately and paid all through lockdown with a broken tooth and no treatment (or refunds) and now this...he's a good dentist but it's pretty damned poor.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Looks like it has been in place since early July. Perhaps something changed for people arriving in Portugal, or they were led to believe that the rules for people coming back into the UK would be lifted.
		
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I think you are being kind. That is quite some gamble to take, quarantine hopefully being lifted. Mmmmmmmm


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2020)

Has Test and Trace changed track to what some have been saying for months that it should be - or was it always the plan to make redundant 6000 recently employed on the scheme and shift the focus of the scheme to local test and tracing.  

If this has always been the plan for the 'world beating' T&T scheme then I'm wondering why we haven't heard of it before - or indeed why the boss of Serco didn't seem to know anything about the plan when interviewed in the last couple of weeks.  Or do we all actually know what has happened, and some of us knew how 'world beating' the system was - but government ministers would prefer to not have to tell us this.  And they wonder why some have doubts about them and their competency.


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## Ethan (Aug 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Has Test and Trace changed track to what some have been saying for months that it should be - or was it always the plan to make redundant 6000 recently employed on the scheme and shift the focus of the scheme to local test and tracing. 

If this has always been the plan for the 'world beating' T&T scheme then I'm wondering why we haven't heard of it before - or indeed why the boss of Serco didn't seem to know anything about the plan when interviewed in the last couple of weeks.  Or do we all actually know what has happened, and some of us knew how 'world beating' the system was - but government ministers would prefer to not have to tell us this.  And they wonder why some have doubts about them and their competency.
		
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Local PHE has been doing most of the work even since NHS Test and Trace has been claiming the credit. Would have been better to scrap it altogether and tell Dido to take a hike but it is a step in the right direction.


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## gmc40 (Aug 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			You're right a bit disingenuous I agree: better add Liverpool (1.9m) to Manchester (2.9m).
		
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You’re quoting the figure for Liverpool City Region which includes the Wirral, areas of Cheshire and North Wales. Liverpool the city is nowhere near the number you quote. I haven’t researched Manchester (I’ll let you do that) but I assume you’re miles off there also. 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/liverpool-population


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## drdel (Aug 12, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			You’re quoting the figure for Liverpool City Region which includes the Wirral, areas of Cheshire and North Wales. Liverpool the city is nowhere near the number you quote. I haven’t researched Manchester (I’ll let you do that) but I assume you’re miles off there also.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/liverpool-population

Click to expand...

And that really changes the price of fish !


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2020)

I note that the English education minister has followed John Swinney's move on exam passes.
I wonder if Unionist supporters will now also call for his resignation.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 12, 2020)

Another really good article. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...y-britain-failed-coronavirus-pandemic/615166/


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I note that the English education minister has followed John Swinney's move on exam passes.
I wonder if Unionist supporters will now also call for his resignation.
		
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I don't think they have. His, John Swinney, change is to go off the teachers prediction, even if that is inflated. The English exams have been marked and will not be altered. What they have changed is that if you feel your mark is too low the grounds for appeal has been expanded to allow your mock exam results to be included, they previously were not. It is a compromise but not a collapse, which I would suggest the Scottish decision was.

There was a very straight talking head of colleges association on the news this morning who spoke very well about this. He was critical of the Scottish decision as universities and employees will now see the Scottish results as flawed in comparison to those in England. That is unfair on Scottish students but a consequence of the decision yesterday. He was not a politician, not looking to score points. To be fair, you raised this yesterday I believe.

Of course, Gavin Williamson could go into full reverse tomorrow and match Swinney once the results are out. It all depends on any outcry, are the results deemed unfair?

The people I know who are stressing about tomorrow are the ones who bob along and cram at the last minute for the exams. Not possible this year. They will not be saved by this change in England as the mocks come too early for them, 'they are only mocks, they don't count'. They do this year though.


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The people I know who are stressing about tomorrow are the ones who bob along and cram at the last minute for the exams. Not possible this year. They will not be saved by this change in England as the mocks come too early for them, 'they are only mocks, they don't count'. They do this year though.
		
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To muddy the waters even further, I didn't realise until this morning that mock exams are not consistent throughout the country, so a mock exam in school A could be considerably harder or easier than a mock exam in school B.
My daughter is generally a straight A student in most exams throughout her school life, she did really poorly in her mocks, can't remember the exact results. Then I hear most teachers make mocks harder for pupils who excel to make them try even harder for the final exam push, and the opposite for pupils who are struggling, give them an easier mock exam to boost their confidence.
I think I'm more nervous about this than my daughter 😂


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			To muddy the waters even further*, I didn't realise until this morning that mock exams are not consistent throughout the country,* so a mock exam in school A could be considerably harder or easier than a mock exam in school B.
My daughter is generally a straight A student in most exams throughout her school life, she did really poorly in her mocks, can't remember the exact results. Then I hear most teachers make mocks harder for pupils who excel to make them try even harder for the final exam push, and the opposite for pupils who are struggling, give them an easier mock exam to boost their confidence.
I think I'm more nervous about this than my daughter 😂
		
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More worrying is that the DfE may not have either.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			To muddy the waters even further, I didn't realise until this morning that mock exams are not consistent throughout the country, so a mock exam in school A could be considerably harder or easier than a mock exam in school B.
My daughter is generally a straight A student in most exams throughout her school life, she did really poorly in her mocks, can't remember the exact results. Then I hear most teachers make mocks harder for pupils who excel to make them try even harder for the final exam push, and the opposite for pupils who are struggling, give them an easier mock exam to boost their confidence.
I think I'm more nervous about this than my daughter 😂
		
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Absolutely. Some try to scare their pupils into working harder for the main exams as you say. It is usually a useful trick without damaging consequences. They are also not externally assesed so how can that work fairly in this situation? Mocks should be part of the equation, they have to work from something, but only part of it. It is a tough year for kids and parents, not of their doing.

I hope your daughter gets what she needs. As we have always told our two, each qualification is a stepping stone to the next stage. Marks are forgotten once you have moved on.


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## funkycoldmedina (Aug 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Another really good article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...y-britain-failed-coronavirus-pandemic/615166/

Click to expand...

That's a fantastic article, well worth taking the time to read. Thanks for sharing.

For those on the right of politics on here it's not a skewering of Johnson but more a comprehensive review of what has gone wrong and why.


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## User62651 (Aug 12, 2020)

So how long until the 1st reopened school (eg Glasgow opens today) closes? 

Say 1,000 kids attending, only 1 pupil or teacher gets covid testing positive, school shuts, all those kids then self isolate for 2 weeks as do all their family/household members?

I've got a bit behind with the rules etc, news burnout, but is that right or close to right or will everyone get tested individually in that scenario rather than a blanket closure?

My youngest goes back tomorrow, eldest on Monday so half expecting this to go south quickly..

See NZ Auckland has shut schools with their tiny covid re-occurence.


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## gmc40 (Aug 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			And that really changes the price of fish !
		
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It sure does!

1. Read the article

2. Understand the information within

3. Post the correct figures.

Simples!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2020)

Friend playing with last night is having to cancel a holiday to Spain.  Why?  Because they are going to Guernsey (F-i-L 80th birthday) within a couple of days of their planned return from Spain.  But as they would have to be in quarantine for two weeks after returning from Spain they wouldn't be able to travel to Guernsey.  So Spain is having to be cancelled.


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## drdel (Aug 12, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			It sure does!

1. Read the article

2. Understand the information within

3. Post the correct figures.

Simples!
		
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The original response was in relation to comparing NZ to the UK. The exact size of the region of Liverpool and/or Manchester does not change the basic incompatibility of NZ and UK.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			That's a fantastic article, well worth taking the time to read. Thanks for sharing.

For those on the right of politics on here it's not a skewering of Johnson but more a comprehensive review of what has gone wrong and why.
		
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It's an opinion that has some pertinent points and some  questionable ones.  We are free to agree with what suits us.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Friend playing with last night is having to cancel a holiday to Spain.  Why?  Because they are going to Guernsey (F-i-L 80th birthday) within a couple of days of their planned return from Spain.  But as they would have to be in quarantine for two weeks after returning from Spain they wouldn't be able to travel to Guernsey.  So Spain is having to be cancelled.
		
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Fair enough.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Fair enough.
		
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Bit of a pain but he is pragmatic about it.  He does not have long before he has to do the cancelling.  He did tell his wife to not book the holiday in Guernsey given the risk of quarantine, but she insisted - it had to be booked for her Dad...ah well.


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## gmc40 (Aug 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			The original response was in relation to comparing NZ to the UK. The exact size of the region of Liverpool and/or Manchester does not change the basic incompatibility of NZ and UK.
		
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It doesn’t but that wasn’t the issue. You posting inaccurate information in an attempt to prove a point was.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit of a pain but he is pragmatic about it.  He does not have long before he has to do the cancelling.  He did tell his wife to not book the holiday in Guernsey given the risk of quarantine, but she insisted - it had to be booked for her Dad...ah well.
		
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It isn't a risk. It's a fact. Didn't he tell his wife that and insist that sense prevail?


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## drdel (Aug 12, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			It doesn’t but that wasn’t the issue. You posting inaccurate information in an attempt to prove a point was.
		
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It's a golf forum - it was not a scientific research paper set on 'proving' twas merely illustrating or suggesting a poor comparison. Shall we get back on topic?


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## Ethan (Aug 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			The original response was in relation to comparing NZ to the UK. The exact size of the region of Liverpool and/or Manchester does not change *my opinion of* the basic incompatibility of NZ and UK.
		
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Fixed it for you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2020)

One or two lost souls on here seem to think that countries the size of NZ, Denmark, Scotland, Norway etc are little more than County Councils.


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## Mudball (Aug 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One or two lost souls on here seem to think that countries the size of NZ, Denmark, Scotland, Norway etc are little more than County Councils.

Click to expand...

...  *United Kingdom* is approximately 243,610 sq km, while *New Zealand* is approximately 268,838 sq km, making *New Zealand* 10% larger than *United Kingdom*.    *Norway* is approximately 323,802 sq km, making *Norway* 33% larger than *United Kingdom*.  

I assume they mean smaller population.  but lets not facts get in the way of a good story


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 13, 2020)

😮😮 BBC NEWS REPORT😮😮
 With highs of 33° expected AGAIN today, it's time to ask "could the government have done more?" Downing Street knew about this heatwave weeks ago and have done nothing. Shipments of 400,000 pairs of Speedos and 500,000 bikinis, sun cream and Cornettos have reportedly been sent back as unsafe after media claims the shipment was quarantined a month ago and Boris did nothing.
Karen from Chavington said, "We just don't  know if it's safe to go outside and sunbathe because we can't function or think for ourselves. Boris hasn't told us either way and all my obese kids need ice cream and sweets, the Hubby can't get out to rob anyone so we're out of lager and weed, I blame the government entirely"
Meanwhile, anti- heat protesters dressed in thick jumpers chanting "cold lives matter" have marched on London, Big Ben has been removed and a giant Mint Feast put in its place by protesters.
The BBC reported earlier, 'clearly the sun has come out and Downing street have done nothing to prevent it.'
A second heat Wave is expected to hit the UK in 4 weeks time


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## drdel (Aug 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			...  *United Kingdom* is approximately 243,610 sq km, while *New Zealand* is approximately 268,838 sq km, making *New Zealand* 10% larger than *United Kingdom*.    *Norway* is approximately 323,802 sq km, making *Norway* 33% larger than *United Kingdom*. 

I assume they mean smaller population.  but lets not facts get in the way of a good story
		
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NW 18 per sq km
UK 247 per sq km (England 427).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It isn't a risk. It's a fact. Didn't he tell his wife that and insist that sense prevail?
		
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I don't know when she booked the holiday - it may have been BEFORE the quarantine on returning from Spain was announced but when quarantines were known to be likely.   In my post I gave his Mrs the benefit of the doubt.  He did try and persuade his wife - but she wasn't having it - the Guernsey holiday had to be booked and if they had to cancel Spain then so be it...


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## bobmac (Aug 13, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			😮😮 BBC NEWS REPORT😮😮
With highs of 33° expected AGAIN today, it's time to ask "could the government have done more?" Downing Street knew about this heatwave weeks ago and have done nothing. Shipments of 400,000 pairs of Speedos and 500,000 bikinis, sun cream and Cornettos have reportedly been sent back as unsafe after media claims the shipment was quarantined a month ago and Boris did nothing.
		
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Maskini


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2020)

The Daily Mail front page - Johnson and Williamson - Dunces.  That and other newspapers - shambles, fiasco...

Even Ferrari on LBC got irritatated yesterday morning with Williamson...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-williamson-u-turn-after-six-seconds-alevels/

In truth - I really don't know why the issue on overgrading seems so significant for Williamson.  Surely it's not the letter that matters it's the ability of the student behind it.   When a student gets into uni on the basis of a set of grades they will cope according to their inherent ability and aptitude - not the fact that they got there with an A that maybe in past years would have been a B.

They had 4 months to think about what to do if no exams sat - they had plenty of time to 'game' the various scenarios once they weren't - and they change their minds with 36hrs to go.  Brilliant.  As the DM said - What a load of dunces.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			...  *United Kingdom* is approximately 243,610 sq km, while *New Zealand* is approximately 268,838 sq km, making *New Zealand* 10% larger than *United Kingdom*.    *Norway* is approximately 323,802 sq km, making *Norway* 33% larger than *United Kingdom*. 

I assume they mean smaller population.  but lets not facts get in the way of a good story
		
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The only mention I can see refers to population density, I dont believe anyone has used country size when referring to Covid numbers.   Let's not let facts get in the way of running ourselves down.


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## Ethan (Aug 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The only mention I can see refers to population density, I dont believe anyone has used country size when referring to Covid numbers.   Let's not let facts get in the way of running ourselves down.
		
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Lets try using relevant facts, though. Population density is a rather simplistic measure used for rather simplistic dismissals of data.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Lets try using relevant facts, though. Population density is a rather simplistic measure used for rather simplistic dismissals of data.
		
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Do you suggest that a countries area is a complex measure for complex support of data 🙄

Rather than population density being used to dismiss data it has been used to support data.


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## Ethan (Aug 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you suggest that a countries area is a complex measure for complex support of data 🙄
		
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I don't even know what that means. Let me copy and paste in into Google Translate. Hang on ..... sorry, it is coming up as nonsense.

If there are spaces in a country where very few people live, that space is irrelevant to the transmissibility of the disease. No people, no transmission. Some countries have lots of such space which massively reduce the average population density of the country but which are irrelevant to the risk. Canada, Russia, Sweden, Norway, Finland all have a very high percentage of their population concentrated in urban centres and then huge areas of barely populated land. Using pollution density or area for the whole country is incredibly stupid.

If the UK took over Greenland, towed the island over and attached it to Scotland, the land mass of the UK would increase by 10 or 20x, and population density fall by the same proportion, at a stroke. The risk of Covid would be unchanged.

Read this: Population density

Let's put it another way. In comparing different countries, you are really just comparing populated areas. Forget about the empty bits which don't matter. The behaviour of the disease in populated areas is much more similar between countries than many would like to acknowledge, and Govt public health action makes a huge difference.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Daily Mail front page - Johnson and Williamson - Dunces.  That and other newspapers - shambles, fiasco...

Even Ferrari on LBC got irritatated yesterday morning with Williamson...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-williamson-u-turn-after-six-seconds-alevels/

In truth - I really don't know why the issue on overgrading seems so significant for Williamson.  Surely it's not the letter that matters it's the ability of the student behind it.   When a student gets into uni on the basis of a set of grades they will cope according to their inherent ability and aptitude - not the fact that they got there with an A that maybe in past years would have been a B.

They had 4 months to think about what to do if no exams sat - they had plenty of time to 'game' the various scenarios once they weren't - and they change their minds with 36hrs to go.  Brilliant.  As the DM said - What a load of dunces.
		
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They went into panic mode in support of Baroness Uturn and the Scottish Tories. I assume. to show consistency, they will now call for the head of Williamson.

Swinney saying that the initial Scottish results were fair, I tend to agree with him.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			...  *United Kingdom* is approximately 243,610 sq km, while *New Zealand* is approximately 268,838 sq km, making *New Zealand* 10% larger than *United Kingdom*.    *Norway* is approximately 323,802 sq km, making *Norway* 33% larger than *United Kingdom*.

I assume they mean smaller population.  but lets not facts get in the way of a good story
		
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Yes SIZE of population.
Lets not start twisting things to suit the agenda and get in the way of a bad bad story.
Pretty big County Councils by size though.


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## DRW (Aug 13, 2020)

Population density of the two capitals, just as an example(yeah I appreciate London is massive and really populated when compared to the rest of the UK but still, just goes to show a point) :-

London  5701
Wellington 2300

Population of London   9,000,000
Population of Wellington  212,700   Population of the WHOLE of NZ is 5,000,000

Nice to compare real basics and lets not even consider the differences in economies and make up of trade and movements of numbers of people. EDIT Or how you enacted NZ policies, how you would possibly scale them up to millions more people overnight.... Worthless comparison IMHO.

A better comparison would be with a country like Germany, a far more interesting comparison...….


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## PNWokingham (Aug 13, 2020)

quite to to argue against much of this!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...hows-true-cost-arrogant-failed-establishment/


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## DRW (Aug 13, 2020)

Keep reading about the false positives in virus testing and non active infections(ie. prior ones) showing up as positives and the more the government test(which they are) the more the numbers will go up in absolute numbers. Also the positivity percentages is not massively changing, hospital admissions, triage/999/111 data and Zoe site are still not really increasing, ONS now perhaps showing a drop/levelling off and so on. But cases still kept going up. Almost be glad when everything points in the same direction to put the mind to rest  

https://vimeo.com/443416775

An interesting video on the testing, goodness know who the people really are, but found it interesting.


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## Ethan (Aug 13, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			quite to to argue against much of this!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...hows-true-cost-arrogant-failed-establishment/

Click to expand...

Paul, my old club mate, it is very easy to argue against that article. Sweden has not had a good pandemic. Their death rate (as of 7/8/20) is 567 per million. Better than the UK (702), for sure, but in the same ballpark as Spain and Italy and way worse than their neighbours and cultural cousins Denmark (107), Finland (63) and Norway (47), and for those who like to compare with countries similar in size to the UK, Germany (111).

As for the economic effect, do I really need to point out another major contributor to the UK's economic woes which the Govt could have avoided but chose not to?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Lets try using relevant facts, though. Population density is a rather simplistic measure used for rather simplistic dismissals of data.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Do you suggest that a countries area is a complex measure for complex support of data 🙄

Rather than population density being used to dismiss data it has been used to support data.
		
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Ethan said:



			I don't even know what that means. Let me copy and paste in into Google Translate. Hang on ..... sorry, it is coming up as nonsense.
		
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Quite easily confused then 🙄


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## Ethan (Aug 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Quite easily confused then 🙄
		
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It is easy to be confused by nonsense. I'd be more worried if I was on the same page as you. 

Population density is data, but in the wrong hands when misinterpreted alongside other data can be used to reach spurious conclusions.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is easy to be confused by nonsense. I'd be more worried if I was on the same page as you.

Population density is data, but in the wrong hands when misinterpreted alongside other data can be used to reach spurious conclusions.
		
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OH I see, so in the right hands and interpreted alongside other data can be used to reach sound conclusions then.

I see you've now taken the normal socialist debating stance of using insults to support your opinions.  Shame really but not surprising.


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## Ethan (Aug 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OH I see, so in the right hands and interpreted alongside other data can be used to reach sound conclusions then.

I see you've now taken the normal socialist debating stance of using insults to support your opinions.  Shame really but not surprising.
		
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You wrote something that made no sense. Sorry. If you had made an understandable point, I would have responded to it. You didn't respond to any of mine, so get off your high horse. 

Try again to explain your point. Or don't. I don't mind either way.


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## Slab (Aug 14, 2020)

How do masks go from ‘not necessary in the UK’  to now warranting a fine for repeat offenders of up to 3k 
I can't get my head round the fact that right through the peak there was no requirement to wear them except on public transport, now you could run up a sizeable fine over the weekend at the shopping centre

Has the UK's science changed that much


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Slab said:



			How do masks go from ‘not necessary in the UK’  to now warranting a fine for repeat offenders of up to 3k 
I can't get my head round the fact that right through the peak there was no requirement to wear them except on public transport, now you could run up a sizeable fine over the weekend at the shopping centre

Has the UK's science changed that much
		
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The politics changed more than the science. The science was always that there was a modest but real effect from wearing a mask, either added to social distancing or as a fall back if SD was not possible. Two people wearing masks and social distancing have a very marked reduction in risk compared to doing neither. Initialy, Govt justified not demanding them by saying they needed to preserve them for NHS and care home staff. That wasn't the whole story. There was also, or perhaps mainly, objections in their own party ("a monstrous imposition") and grumbling unpopularity among certain parts of the public. As lockdown easing progressed, it became obvious that masks were necessary to allow shops to reopen and close indoor contact in other settings to resume, so they caved in.


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## GB72 (Aug 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The politics changed more than the science. The science was always that there was a modest but real effect from wearing a mask, either added to social distancing or as a fall back if SD was not possible. Two people wearing masks and social distancing have a very marked reduction in risk compared to doing neither. Initialy, Govt justified not demanding them by saying they needed to preserve them for NHS and care home staff. That wasn't the whole story. There was also, or perhaps mainly, objections in their own party ("a monstrous imposition") and grumbling unpopularity among certain parts of the public. As lockdown easing progressed, it became obvious that masks were necessary to allow shops to reopen and close indoor contact in other settings to resume, so they caved in.
		
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Have to agree with that. Plus a public confidence issue. To get people out spending, the masks have proved useful in making people feel more comfortable. 

That said, read an article yesterday (wish I had saved it) that compared masks and it was found that Snood type options used as a face covering are actually worse than wearing no mask and increased the spread (probably wrong term) from the user to 110% of what it would be without a mask.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Have to agree with that. Plus a public confidence issue. To get people out spending, the masks have proved useful in making people feel more comfortable.

That said, read an article yesterday (wish I had saved it) that compared masks and it was found that Snood type options used as a face covering are actually worse than wearing no mask and increased the spread (probably wrong term) from the user to 110% of what it would be without a mask.
		
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https://news.sky.com/story/amp/coro...actually-increases-risk-of-infection-12046715

Not sure if it is this one you mentioned, only confusing bit for me, you described it as a snood, the article describes it as a neck fleece, probably the same thing, but is it the material that’s the issue rather than the design?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 14, 2020)

Slab said:



			How do masks go from ‘not necessary in the UK’  to now warranting a fine for repeat offenders of up to 3k 
I can't get my head round the fact that right through the peak there was no requirement to wear them except on public transport, now you could run up a sizeable fine over the weekend at the shopping centre

Has the UK's science changed that much
		
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England only matter for the £3200 fines.
Science has not changed but Johnson's popularity has.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The politics changed more than the science. The science was always that there was a modest but real effect from wearing a mask, either added to social distancing or as a fall back if SD was not possible. Two people wearing masks and social distancing have a very marked reduction in risk compared to doing neither. Initialy, Govt justified not demanding them by saying they needed to preserve them for NHS and care home staff. That wasn't the whole story.* There was also, or perhaps mainly, objections in their own party ("a monstrous imposition") and grumbling unpopularity among certain parts of the public. As lockdown easing progressed, it became obvious that masks were necessary to allow shops to reopen and close indoor contact in other settings to resume, so they caved in.*

Click to expand...



A touch of mixing the medical knowledge with a dash of political stance, it seems.
When the SD was 2 metres and supermarkets and the lockdown shops were open ,with SD markings and two at a time type efforts at SD, then 2 metres was the rule, so masks were not deemed necessary. (As you say, they would have assisted if worn, as in belt and braces). 
But mandatory masks came in when the distancing was below 2 m, as in public transport, and then when the shops were open as they are now.
Supermarkets no longer limiting numbers and one way walking round etc.
So, in these new circumstances of closer distancing, the science said masks were more necessary, hence the new rule.
Don't see why you have to bring in your assertions that "objections in their own party" etc, ( as if you would be in the know of thinking in "the party ",any more than others in the forum)!except to have a political pop at this government.
The last couple of weeks have clearly seen increases in cases of Covid on the continent, hence the new quarantine rules, so it seems the government is clearly worried about the relaxations allowing a second spike to be more likely.
So moves are being made to try to get more compliance by the British public to the new SD rules,


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			A touch of mixing the medical knowledge with a dash of political stance, it seems.
When the SD was 2 metres and supermarkets and the lockdown shops were open ,with SD markings and two at a time type efforts at SD, then 2 metres was the rule, so masks were not deemed necessary. (As you say, they would have assisted if worn, as in belt and braces).
But mandatory masks came in when the distancing was below 2 m, as in public transport, and then when the shops were open as they are now.
Supermarkets no longer limiting numbers and one way walking round etc.
So, in these new circumstances of closer distancing, the science said masks were more necessary, hence the new rule.
Don't see why you have to bring in your assertions that "objections in their own party" etc, ( as if you would be in the know of thinking in "the party ",any more than others in the forum)!except to have a political pop at this government.
The last couple of weeks have clearly seen increases in cases of Covid on the continent, hence the new quarantine rules, so it seems the government is clearly worried about the relaxations allowing a second spike to be more likely.
So moves are being made to try to get more compliance by the British public to the new SD rules,
		
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A good balanced post, well done.


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			A touch of mixing the medical knowledge with a dash of political stance, it seems.
When the SD was 2 metres and supermarkets and the lockdown shops were open ,with SD markings and two at a time type efforts at SD, then 2 metres was the rule, so masks were not deemed necessary. (As you say, they would have assisted if worn, as in belt and braces).
But mandatory masks came in when the distancing was below 2 m, as in public transport, and then when the shops were open as they are now.
Supermarkets no longer limiting numbers and one way walking round etc.
So, in these new circumstances of closer distancing, the science said masks were more necessary, hence the new rule.
Don't see why you have to bring in your assertions that "objections in their own party" etc, ( as if you would be in the know of thinking in "the party ",any more than others in the forum)!except to have a political pop at this government.
The last couple of weeks have clearly seen increases in cases of Covid on the continent, hence the new quarantine rules, so it seems the government is clearly worried about the relaxations allowing a second spike to be more likely.
So moves are being made to try to get more compliance by the British public to the new SD rules,
		
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Well, the politics has made the decisions, as they often said at Number 10 briefings, usually caveated by saying it was based on science. The voices against masks in the Tory Party were pretty public as rumours grew of some degree of mandatory mask wearing beyond public transport.

2M was never a magic distance of safety, especially if aerosolised smaller particles were generated which do not fall to the ground with gravity but float in the air, but it was a convenient recognisable distance that offered good protection. The evidence for masks has not really changed very much. The Govt response to it has changed more. From the outset it was known that there was a modest but real effect, mostly to the benefit of others if infected people were masked, and that benefit was not either/or with social distancing, but additive. 2M plus masks is pretty much excellent protection, 1M plus masks is pretty good.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			A touch of mixing the medical knowledge with a dash of political stance, it seems.
When the SD was 2 metres and supermarkets and the lockdown shops were open ,with SD markings and two at a time type efforts at SD, then 2 metres was the rule, so masks were not deemed necessary. (As you say, they would have assisted if worn, as in belt and braces).
But mandatory masks came in when the distancing was below 2 m, as in public transport, and then when the shops were open as they are now.
Supermarkets no longer limiting numbers and one way walking round etc.
So, in these new circumstances of closer distancing, the science said masks were more necessary, hence the new rule.
Don't see why you have to bring in your assertions that "objections in their own party" etc, ( as if you would be in the know of thinking in "the party ",any more than others in the forum)!except to have a political pop at this government.
The last couple of weeks have clearly seen increases in cases of Covid on the continent, hence the new quarantine rules, so it seems the government is clearly worried about the relaxations allowing a second spike to be more likely.
So moves are being made to try to get more compliance by the British public to the new SD rules,
		
Click to expand...

There was scientific and medical advice from around the world saying face masks in public could help reduce the risk in March and April.

Scientific studies also found the following:

“A separate study conducted under laboratory conditions at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Cambridge, US, found that coughs can project liquid droplets up to 6m away and that sneezes reach up to 8m.”

The WHO initial advice was for 1 metre social distancing.

Therefore I would ask if you could show a link showing were anyone in Government advised masks were not deemed necessary by staying 2 metres apart.

I don’t agree with all Ethan’s points on why masks were not brought in earlier but there was evidence from around the world of Governments not wanting to bring in mandatory wearing of masks in public due to supply and demand and risking the supply to health professionals.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			There was scientific and medical advice from around the world saying face masks in public could help reduce the risk in March and April.

Scientific studies also found the following:

“A separate study conducted under laboratory conditions at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Cambridge, US, found that coughs can project liquid droplets up to 6m away and that sneezes reach up to 8m.”

The WHO initial advice was for 1 metre social distancing.

Therefore I would ask if you could show a link showing were anyone in Government advised masks were not deemed necessary by staying 2 metres apart.

I don’t agree with all Ethan’s points on why masks were not brought in earlier but there was evidence from around the world of Governments not wanting to bring in mandatory wearing of masks in public due to supply and demand and risking the supply to health professionals.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

Click to expand...

Radical move to say you don't agree with me and then cite evidence. Much more rational than complaining I was just being all political but without countering any assertions or points. 

I agree the small droplet issue was understood early in this process.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Radical move to say you don't agree with me and then cite evidence. Much more rational than complaining I was just being all political but without countering any assertions or points.

I agree the small droplet issue was understood early in this process.
		
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I said and I quote, “I don’t agree with all Ethan’s points on why masks were not brought in earlier”


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I said and I quote, “I don’t agree with all Ethan’s points on why masks were not brought in earlier”
		
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I saw that. I have no issue with that because you provide some rational argument. I liked your post.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			There was scientific and medical advice from around the world saying face masks in public could help reduce the risk in March and April.

Scientific studies also found the following:

“A separate study conducted under laboratory conditions at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Cambridge, US, found that coughs can project liquid droplets up to 6m away and that sneezes reach up to 8m.”

The WHO initial advice was for 1 metre social distancing.

Therefore I would ask if you could show a link showing were anyone in Government advised masks were not deemed necessary by staying 2 metres apart.

I don’t agree with all Ethan’s points on why masks were not brought in earlier but there was evidence from around the world of Governments not wanting to bring in mandatory wearing of masks in public due to supply and demand and risking the supply to health professionals.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

Click to expand...

I thought they weren’t bought in because the evidence was weak and nobody wears and uses a mask properly, touching, adjusting then contaminating stuff. 

Then the advice changed because some unscrupulous chaps was lobbying for them. One being sadiq Khan. 
There was an article I read on the BBC that stated the WHO was lobbied to change its advice but it was removed.


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## Old Skier (Aug 14, 2020)

Masks may or may not be the answer but so many don’t wear them properly and others spend most of their time fiddling with them the risk grows with the “we are all safe because we wear masks” that complacency will kick in which was the main worry by SAGE in the first place,


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I thought they weren’t bought in because the evidence was weak and nobody wears and uses a mask properly, touching, adjusting then contaminating stuff.

Then the advice changed because some unscrupulous chaps was lobbying for them. One being sadiq Khan.
There was an article I read on the BBC that stated the WHO was lobbied to change its advice but it was removed.
		
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As far as I can tell, the advice consists of two main elements. One is based on measuring how much of the content of a cough/breath from someone wearing/not wearing a mask reaches someone else at various distances away wearing/not wearing a mask. That varies between masks, obviously. That shows that a properly fitted mask (an important qualifier) reduces the amount someone coughs out, and to a lesser extent the amount someone else takes in (because you can also absorb via the eyes, for example).

The second bit is that the countries that have had a really good Covid experience, especially in S E Asia, are high masks wearers, dating from SARS. 

Given that the downside of masks are extremely minor for almost every person, including asthmatics and those with COPD, then it is really a no-brainer to recommend them. Some kids with autism spectrum disorder are quite sensitive to them.


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Masks may or may not be the answer but so many don’t wear them properly and others spend most of their time fiddling with them the risk grows with the “we are all safe because we wear masks” that complacency will kick in which was the main worry by SAGE in the first place,
		
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Is that the same SAGE whose behavioural psychologists were convinced that compliance fatigue would kick in after 4-5 weeks anyway?


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## Old Skier (Aug 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Is that the same SAGE whose behavioural psychologists were convinced that compliance fatigue would kick in after 4-5 weeks anyway?
		
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It’s the official SAGE, I, like you have no idea if their advise is good or bad, we can only give our opinions.


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It’s the official SAGE, I, like you have no idea if their advise is good or bad, we can only give our opinions.
		
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You, like I, can read minutes of SAGE meetings and see the evidence provided (including external stuff like the the now infamous Imperial report) and form a judgement. We can also listen to experts from SAGE and their subcommittees comment publicly and offer their opinions, some of which have been critical of Govt policy. 

I don't know if you think or know if the advice was good or bad, nor are you in any position to comment whether I do or not.


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## Old Skier (Aug 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You, like I, can read minutes of SAGE meetings and see the evidence provided (including external stuff like the the now infamous Imperial report) and form a judgement. We can also listen to experts from SAGE and their subcommittees comment publicly and offer their opinions, some of which have been critical of Govt policy.

I don't know if you think or know if the advice was good or bad, nor are you in any position to comment whether I do or not.
		
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I'm not sure what your on about as my post was about the inappropriate way people are using masks and how it proved the SAGE committee initial fears correct.


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure what your on about as my post was about the inappropriate way people are using masks and how it proved the SAGE committee initial fears correct.
		
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That's not what you said. 

But mask use is actually pretty good in shops - I was in Tesco a while ago and didn't see anyone beyond primary school age without one. Social distancing practice improved after the initial period when people get used to it. Why do you say SAGE was right about mask use?


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## Old Skier (Aug 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That's not what you said.

But mask use is actually pretty good in shops - I was in Tesco a while ago and didn't see anyone beyond primary school age without one. Social distancing practice improved after the initial period when people get used to it. Why do you say SAGE was right about mask use?
		
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Because in the past SAGE indicated that people’s behaviour when they were wearing masks, improper wearing of them, false sense of security and possible cross contamination, was a concern.


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Because in the past SAGE indicated that people’s behaviour when they were wearing masks, improper wearing of them, false sense of security and possible cross contamination, was a concern.
		
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I know that. That was based on behavioural psychology rather than clinical science. That was the same people who said that people would not tolerate more than 4-5 weeks of lockdown. They were wrong about that. 

It is very dangerous to postpone doing something you think needs doing because you think it won't get public support. The right thing is to do what needs doing when it needs doing and find a way to make it stick.


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## Old Skier (Aug 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I know that. That was based on behavioural psychology rather than clinical science. That was the same people who said that people would not tolerate more than 4-5 weeks of lockdown. They were wrong about that.

It is very dangerous to postpone doing something you think needs doing because you think it won't get public support. The right thing is to do what needs doing when it needs doing and find a way to make it stick.
		
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You and I are unfortunately in the hands of the experts and hopefully lessons will be learned and next time will be implemented.


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You and I are unfortunately in the hands of the experts and hopefully lessons will be learned and next time will be implemented.
		
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Some of the lessons need to be learned now because this is not over and there are further difficult decisions yet to be taken.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 14, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I thought they weren’t bought in because the evidence was weak and nobody wears and uses a mask properly, touching, adjusting then contaminating stuff.

Then the advice changed because some unscrupulous chaps was lobbying for them. One being sadiq Khan.
There was an article I read on the BBC that stated the WHO was lobbied to change its advice but it was removed.
		
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That was an issue across the world, but some Countries still insisted on them from minute one.

I’m not blaming our Government’s decision, whether that was correct at the time or not will come out in an enquiry, as for the argument about peoples behaviour (fiddling with them etc), that’s a deflection for me, you will always get extremes at both ends when a Government (regardless of party) brings new measures in.

They should base their decision on trying to protect everyone, knowing full well some idiots know better.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I know that. That was based on behavioural psychology rather than clinical science. *That was the same people who said that people would not tolerate more than 4-5 weeks of lockdown. They were wrong about that.*

It is very dangerous to postpone doing something you think needs doing because you think it won't get public support. The right thing is to do what needs doing when it needs doing and find a way to make it stick.
		
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Not so sure they were. I don't see a disciplined nation following guidelines and rules. How many instances of  people doing their thing (Durdle Dor for example) and then saying rules are confusing.etc.
And if a second spike comes, I fear it will be even worse.
Genuinely, I hope I'm wrong on that.


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## Ethan (Aug 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not so sure they were. I don't see a disciplined nation following guidelines and rules. How many instances of  people doing their thing (Durdle Dor for example) and then saying rules are confusing.etc.
And if a second spike comes, I fear it will be even worse.
Genuinely, I hope I'm wrong on that.
		
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Govt was pleasantly surprised how well the initial request to work from home was taken up, a lot fewer key workers kids were at school than expected and the high streets were very quiet until badly trailed easing was announced, which triggered a pre-easing. Nobody ever expected there would be slavish 100% compliance but overall it was better than expected. The rules should have been clearer, for sure. Other disciplined nations followed the rules. 

On masks, I think simpler rules should be applied, and medical exemptions would be few and far between, and only with a doctor's approval, not self-certification by buying a lanyard.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

So depressing to see so many kids getting screwed over by a patently unfair system for awarding grades. Some really upsetting stories of students being awarded lower grades than they ever achieved in exams and having uni places withdrawn as a result. The way they are being treated ,postcodes affecting grades, is shameful.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So depressing to see so many kids getting screwed over by a patently unfair system for awarding grades. Some really upsetting stories of students being awarded lower grades than they ever achieved in exams and having uni places withdrawn as a result. The way they are being treated ,postcodes affecting grades, is shameful.
		
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Who do you believe these people are wanting to screw kids over and why would they want to?


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## drdel (Aug 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who do you believe these people are wanting to screw kids over and why would they want to?
		
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Because just about anything must be a conspiracy.

Despite the fact that the method or algorithm has been developed by people with no political slant the personalisation of stuff polical means Gavin Williamson must be shot. 

Getting a process to award grades across the whole of the education system is extremely challenging and will always generate winners and losers. Hopefully the Appeals process can address any grave mistakes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			Because just about anything must be a conspiracy.

Despite the fact that the method or algorithm has been developed by people with no political slant the personalisation of stuff polical means Gavin Williamson must be shot.

Getting a process to award grades across the whole of the education system is extremely challenging and will always generate winners and losers. Hopefully the Appeals process can address any grave mistakes.
		
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https://news.sky.com/story/amp/a-le...uldnt-sign-non-disclosure-agreements-12049289


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

You guys are so predictable and so lacking in empathy. Not a care for kids who’ve had their futures blighted by this patently unfair process.


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## drdel (Aug 15, 2020)

pauldj42 said:




https://news.sky.com/story/amp/a-le...uldnt-sign-non-disclosure-agreements-12049289

Click to expand...

NDA's are a common feature of any examination or related process


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## AmandaJR (Aug 15, 2020)

Wouldn't it be great if we could rely on teachers to be professional and not "over optimistic"...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So depressing to see so many kids getting screwed over by a patently unfair system for awarding grades. Some really upsetting stories of students being awarded lower grades than they ever achieved in exams and having uni places withdrawn as a result. The way they are being treated ,postcodes affecting grades, is shameful.
		
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Interesting stats here, just remember there’s no political influence.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1293835511266713601


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who do you believe these people are wanting to screw kids over and why would they want to?
		
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Not my point and not what I said.

Using data and algorithms for something like this is fundamentally flawed as it will embed the bias or misconceptions of those who develop it. 

My twitter feed is full of tales of straight A students who have been downgraded from their mocks and teacher estimates and had uni places withdrawn.

I feel heart sick for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Wouldn't it be great if we could rely on teachers to be professional and not "over optimistic"...
		
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Any proof or just a feeling?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			You guys are so predictable and so lacking in empathy. Not a care for kids who’ve had their futures blighted by this patently unfair process.
		
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Kaz this years pupils will be blighted whatever the outcome.
Be sympathetic and employers etc will always query 2020 results.
No win situation.
Any political party/politician trying to make political advantage over this really needs to take a good look at themselves.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Kaz this years pupils will be blighted whatever the outcome.
Be sympathetic and employers etc will always query 2020 results.
No win situation.
Any political party/politician trying to make political advantage over this really needs to take a good look at themselves.
		
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What political advantage can be made from it. Maybe the Government should have made kids carry on schooling, is that what you would have preferred.

Not heard of anyone who had upgraded results complaining.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Kaz this years pupils will be blighted whatever the outcome.
Be sympathetic and employers etc will always query 2020 results.
No win situation.
Any political party/politician trying to make political advantage over this really needs to take a good look at themselves.
		
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I think that’s true but it’s the uni admissions that are most immediately and drastically impacted.

A more sympathetic approach is required, I think. Or at least one that doesn’t exacerbate the inequalities that already exist in our education system.

I see one college has said they’ll honour all conditional offers they made regardless of the grades awarded. It’d be good if others were able to follow.


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## rulefan (Aug 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Wouldn't it be great if we could rely on teachers to be professional and not "over optimistic"...
		
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My grandaughter was predicted to get A*AA by her teachers. She told her mother she only expected to get ABA. She said she had no chance of an A*.
Edinburgh required AAA and gave a provisional offer. She was awarded AAB and the uni gave her a place straight away.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			My grandaughter was predicted to get A*AA by her teachers. She told her mother she only expected to get ABA. She said she had no chance of an A*.
Edinburgh required AAA and gave a provisional offer. She was awarded AAB and the uni gave her a place straight away.
		
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So why do the teachers predict an A*. That to me is where the flaw is in this whole system. Why on earth can't we rely on teachers to be honest in their assessment rather than bump everything up so they look good?!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			So why do the teachers predict an A*. That to me is where the flaw is in this whole system. Why on earth can't we rely on teachers to be honest in their assessment rather than bump everything up so they look good?!
		
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Again! What are you basing the teacher’s dishonesty on?

They will of spent 2 years with the kid, seen how they apply themselves and results in mocks etc.

I would trust the teacher assessing the kid far more than an algorithm.

Are you asking for those kids in private schools and who studied less popular subjects, who you must obviously believe have been over graded, to be reassessed as they weren’t part of the algorithm.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 15, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Again! What are you basing the teacher’s dishonesty on?

They will of spent 2 years with the kid, seen how they apply themselves and results in mocks etc.

I would trust the teacher assessing the kid far more than an algorithm.

Are you asking for those kids in private schools and who studied less popular subjects, who you must obviously believe have been over graded, to be reassessed as they weren’t part of the algorithm.
		
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Basing it on the post above and the fact that every single article I've read states they are being over optimistic! Over optimistic being the term used but to me if they're over egging the grades then they've being dishonest and it's unfair to those who have gone before and sat exams, and will come after and sit exams.

I'm asking that EVERY student is giving a fair grade based upon their previous work and results. Simple. Being over optimistic and giving grades above that level doesn't work and isn't fair. There would be no need for an adjustment if the predicted grades were accurate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 15, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Again! What are you basing the teacher’s dishonesty on?

They will of spent 2 years with the kid, seen how they apply themselves and results in mocks etc.

I would trust the teacher assessing the kid far more than an algorithm.

Are you asking for those kids in private schools and who studied less popular subjects, who you must obviously believe have been over graded, to be reassessed as they weren’t part of the algorithm.
		
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In some of the more deprived areas of Scotland the teachers assessments on the lower performing pupils would have meant a +20% pass increase on 2019 figures. Pretty unrealistic IMO. Teachers not doing the kids any favours.
Overall results in Scotland were similar to England about 1% increases on 2019

Still to hear of any protests from the kids who were awarded higher than expected results.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Basing it on the post above and the fact that every single article I've read states they are being over optimistic! Over optimistic being the term used but to me if they're over egging the grades then they've being dishonest and it's unfair to those who have gone before and sat exams, and will come after and sit exams.

I'm asking that EVERY student is giving a fair grade based upon their previous work and results. Simple. Being over optimistic and giving grades above that level doesn't work and isn't fair. There would be no need for an adjustment if the predicted grades were accurate.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			In some of the more deprived areas of Scotland the teachers assessments on the lower performing pupils would have meant a +20% pass increase on 2019 figures. Pretty unrealistic IMO. Teachers not doing the kids any favours.
Overall results in Scotland were similar to England about 1% increases on 2019

Still to hear of any protests from the kids who were awarded higher than expected results.
		
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But as already mentioned, the algorithm has also awarded some kids higher grades!

Were’s the call to have those grades changed?

No teacher, imo, will of given a kid a grade (higher or lower) which could possibly disadvantage them in the future.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2020)

A problem with Teachers being the only decision makers is there can tend to be a degree of favouritism, well unless things have changed dramatically from my and my childrens time at school.  Teachers can easily let a like or dislike for a pupil cloud their view, IMO there also needs to be an independant method of marking or examining.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

I understood that the teacher's assessment was used as part of the grading process in addition to the school's historic results and performance in mocks.

Certainly I can understand the concerns of the authorities when  based solely upon teacher assessments, some establishments would have achieved results far in excess of anything previously achieved.


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## harpo_72 (Aug 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A problem with Teachers being the only decision makers is there can tend to be a degree of favouritism, well unless things have changed dramatically from my and my childrens time at school.  Teachers can easily let a like or dislike for a pupil cloud their view, IMO there also needs to be an independant method of marking or examining.
		
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Your right, and they should use the mock exams and those papers should be sent to show that the mock was made up of past papers. 
Of course non objective A levels are too open to interpretation and are just based on factual knowledge plus an ability to argument or make a point. So will all ways be open to variance in marking.

Then you have the kids who just step up when it comes to exams .. and they have not had a chance.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 15, 2020)

Mock exams are not always spot on, they are not independently moderated. Some teachers go hard in order to scare kids, others feed the kids the likely papers. At my daughter's school this year the maths mock was made up of 3 papers. The first paper was a 2018 one. The kids realised this and practised papers 2 and 3 from the same year. They did come up, they all did well. Should the govt go purely off their mock results when they are clearly tainted?

It's complicated and some have clearly got it wrong. You can't devalue the whole year by reverting to teachers predictions though, imo. There always needed to be a balance in that sense.


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## Ethan (Aug 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			Because just about anything must be a conspiracy.

Despite the fact that the method or algorithm has been developed by people with no political slant the personalisation of stuff polical means Gavin Williamson must be shot.

Getting a process to award grades across the whole of the education system is extremely challenging and will always generate winners and losers. Hopefully the Appeals process can address any grave mistakes.
		
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If the algorithm had been developed by a chimp, it would probably not have a political slant, because as far as I am aware chimps do not have particular party affiliations. However, if that chimp reported to Gavin Williamson, then Gav ultimately carries the can. That is how political accountability works. 

No paranoid conspiracy theories are needed. Shooting him is a bit extreme, making him NI Secretary should be sufficient.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If the algorithm had been developed by a chimp, it would probably not have a political slant, because as far as I am aware chimps do not have particular party affiliations. However, if that chimp reported to Gavin Williamson, then Gav ultimately carries the can. That is how political accountability works.

No paranoid conspiracy theories are needed. Shooting him is a bit extreme, making him NI Secretary should be sufficient.
		
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If there was a political slant to the whole exercise then surely the teachers' gradings would stand thereby enabling the Government to claim a success in their education policies. 

I'm afraid that this is a situation from which no one is going to emerge unscathed. 

Teachers will be accused of misleading pupils by inflating grades.

Pupils may find their future plans thrown into disarray. 

Government will be slammed whichever method had been used in the absence of exams.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

With people losing uni places surely the unis and jobs can be like hmm it's a national scandle so no loss of place 

Seems like even though the gov failed everyone is willing to accept it and just blame the gov rather than step up and say right your predicted grades were AAA so we will offer you a place for exceptional circumstances which also is affecting everyone


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## Ethan (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			If there was a political slant to the whole exercise then surely the teachers' gradings would stand thereby enabling the Government to claim a success in their education policies.

I'm afraid that this is a situation from which no one is going to emerge unscathed.

Teachers will be accused of misleading pupils by inflating grades.

Pupils may find their future plans thrown into disarray.

Government will be slammed whichever method had been used in the absence of exams.
		
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Heavy is the head, as Stormzy would say.

I agree it is a bad break for the Govt but a worse one for some pupils. There does appear to be some systematic issues within this algorithm, though. One is that more popular subjects are more likely to be adjusted because of the larger sample size and greater quantity of data available, whereas less popular niche subjects are less likely for the opposite reason. The latter category are more likely to be taken in private schools. And pupils who were at schools with few previous pupils going on to high grade subjects are penalised more because of the school's lack of track record. Again, private schools benefit.

There are only a finite number of places for a lot of subjects so simply saying that everybody can appeal or have the best of the various measures risks overfilling some courses, doesn't it? I assume that offers are made based on data from previous years and a degree of overselling, like the airlines, is needed. If the pass rate has sharply risen because there are additional ways to meet the grade, how can everyone's offer be honoured?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			With people losing uni places surely the unis and jobs can be like hmm it's a national scandle so no loss of place

Seems like even though the gov failed everyone is willing to accept it and just blame the gov rather than step up and say right your predicted grades were AAA so we will offer you a place for exceptional circumstances which also is affecting everyone
		
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But where have the Government failed?

Throughout all this I have not seen too many constructive suggestions of alternative methods of dealing with an unprecedented situation.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But where have the Government failed?

Throughout all this I have not seen too many constructive suggestions of alternative methods of dealing with an unprecedented situation.
		
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This sums up a lot of the situation well.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Heavy is the head, as Stormzy would say.

I agree it is a bad break for the Govt but a worse one for some pupils. There does appear to be some systematic issues within this algorithm, though. One is that more popular subjects are more likely to be adjusted because of the larger sample size and greater quantity of data available, whereas less popular niche subjects are less likely for the opposite reason. The latter category are more likely to be taken in private schools. And pupils who were at schools with few previous pupils going on to high grade subjects are penalised more because of the school's lack of track record. Again, private schools benefit.

There are only a finite number of places for a lot of subjects so simply saying that everybody can appeal or have the best of the various measures risks overfilling some courses, doesn't it? I assume that offers are made based on data from previous years and a degree of overselling, like the airlines, is needed. If the pass rate has sharply risen because there are additional ways to meet the grade, how can everyone's offer be honoured?
		
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Judging by some of the examples quoted in the media I am not certain that I could agree with you that the niche subjects are  more likely to be sat in the independent schools. 

Most of the pupils complaining about their grades in the more esoteric subjects seemed to be from state schools and colleges.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 32046


This sums up a lot of the situation well.
		
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That is her somewhat less than objective view arising from schools' previous results being a part of the algorithm.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			That is her somewhat less than objective view arising from schools' previous results being a part of the algorithm.
		
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Considering the gov have announced the triple lock grade system because this mess is so bad it shows they really dropped the ball 

Students already had disappointment and some may lose out whilst appeals take place 

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/...triple-lock-written-exam-explained-577436/amp


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering the gov have announced the triple lock grade system because this mess is so bad it shows they really dropped the ball

Students already had disappointment and some may lose out whilst appeals take place

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/...triple-lock-written-exam-explained-577436/amp

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So how should grades have been assessed?

Plenty of negativity around but not too much constructive criticism. 

What in addition to  teacher assessments, historic results and mock results could or should have been included?


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So how should grades have been assessed?

Plenty of negativity around but not too much constructive criticism.

What in addition to  teacher assessments, historic results and mock results could or should have been included?
		
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Oh if only the government hadn't changed the system so there was less course work on which pupils ability could be judged.

So gov been ruining schools for years.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh if only the government hadn't changed the system so there was less course work on which pupils ability could be judged.

So gov been ruining schools for years.
		
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They changed that for sound educational reasons so how have they been ruining schools. In any event coursework will have formed a major part of the teacher assessments included within the gradings.

You appear to be big on rhetoric but short on suggestions of alternative methods.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			They changed that for sound educational reasons so how have they been ruining schools.

You appear to be big on rhetoric but short on suggestions of alternative methods.
		
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How can a system that downgrades state schools but upgrades private schools be fair and consistent?

The system is flawed and has already been deemed so by government (how quick do they turn a decision normally? Shows their wrong) 

They could have trusted the teachers 

https://www.whatuni.com/advice/coro...levels-grades-awarded-in-2020/87371/?amp=true

The problem came when looking at the previous grades and they have graded down in lower performing schools and higher in higher performing schools even on grades that would be acceptable 

It's a massive failing to the students and for them to already have a system in place to override it shows it's a massive mistake.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			How can a system that downgrades state schools but upgrades private schools be fair and consistent?

The system is flawed and has already been deemed so by government (how quick do they turn a decision normally? Shows their wrong)

They could have trusted the teachers

https://www.whatuni.com/advice/coro...levels-grades-awarded-in-2020/87371/?amp=true

The problem came when looking at the previous grades and they have graded down in lower performing schools and higher in higher performing schools even on grades that would be acceptable

It's a massive failing to the students and for them to already have a system in place to override it shows it's a massive mistake.
		
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Also AS level grades are a good indication of ability


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			How can a system that downgrades state schools but upgrades private schools be fair and consistent?

The system is flawed and has already been deemed so by government (how quick do they turn a decision normally? Shows their wrong)

They could have trusted the teachers

https://www.whatuni.com/advice/coro...levels-grades-awarded-in-2020/87371/?amp=true

The problem came when looking at the previous grades and they have graded down in lower performing schools and higher in higher performing schools even on grades that would be acceptable

It's a massive failing to the students and for them to already have a system in place to override it shows it's a massive mistake.
		
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So no criticism of some teachers who seem to quite clearly have inflated the grades awarded?

And there are plenty of instances of pupils in the independent sector being downgraded. 

Personally, were I not retired and still employing school leavers I would be very sceptical of any qualifications based solely upon teachers' assessments.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

There’s no good answer but the algorithm used was obviously unsound. 

Even if the basis for it was reasonable, which is open to debate, it failed.

They had a massive historical data set to test it against; last year’s predicted and actual results. Reportedly it only had a 67% success rate when tested against that data. If true, it’s a massive failure of leadership to use that for real.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So no criticism of some teachers who seem to quite clearly have inflated the grades awarded?

And there are plenty of instances of pupils in the independent sector being downgraded.

Personally, were I not retired and still employing school leavers I would be very sceptical of any qualifications based solely upon teachers' assessments.
		
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Which you should be anyways as grades are massively overatted... Some people don't learn well in a school environment but Excell in the workplace and other areas.

Like a degree may show you can learn doesn't show you can do bugger all.

I'd be more trusting of a teacher's view than on the day performance as they spend all year with them and can gauge their true ability rather than their nerves


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Which you should be anyways as grades are massively overatted... Some people don't learn well in a school environment but Excell in the workplace and other areas.

Like a degree may show you can learn doesn't show you can do bugger all.

I'd be more trusting of a teacher's view than on the day performance as they spend all year with them and can gauge their true ability rather than their nerves
		
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And have often allowed personalities to become involved.


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## rulefan (Aug 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They could have trusted the teachers

https://www.whatuni.com/advice/coro...levels-grades-awarded-in-2020/87371/?amp=true

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Quote from student in the above link

_ It would have been unfair to give everyone their predicted grades because a lot of schools inflate them, which would put our school at a disadvantage because many departments under-predict more than anything else._


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## AmandaJR (Aug 15, 2020)

There's a reason why teacher's aren't permitted anywhere near a live exam anymore...they have a vested interest.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Quote from student in the above link

_ It would have been unfair to give everyone their predicted grades because a lot of schools inflate them, which would put our school at a disadvantage because many departments under-predict more than anything else._

Click to expand...

But also on that side if students are told their predicted grades and their good enough to get into uni even if under predicted that's all that matters to them


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Quote from student in the above link

_ It would have been unfair to give everyone their predicted grades because a lot of schools inflate them, which would put our school at a disadvantage because many departments under-predict more than anything else._

Click to expand...

It's a bit confusing but I don't think that out of context quote from May is actually about the way grades have just been decided.


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## Ethan (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Judging by some of the examples quoted in the media I am not certain that I could agree with you that the niche subjects are  more likely to be sat in the independent schools.

Most of the pupils complaining about their grades in the more esoteric subjects seemed to be from state schools and colleges.
		
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There are likely to be more examples from state than independent because there are more of those to start with. It isn't just less popular subjects but smaller class sizes. This affects the amount of statistical manipulation possible. 

Read this.


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## rulefan (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's a bit confusing but I don't think that out of context quote from May is actually about the way grades have just been decided.
		
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And that is the point. The student is saying that using teachers' grades would have been wrong.

But if used for uni entry, the unis would have been overwhelmed.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			There's a reason why teacher's aren't permitted anywhere near a live exam anymore...they have a vested interest.
		
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There's no good way to decide grades in the absence of exams this year but I'd take the teacher's professional judgement over a computer program every time, even with this valid concern.

And, under the circumstances, I'd err on the side of over rather than under estimating grades. The kids leaving school this year are going to be badly affected by this either way, I'd prefer to help them as much as possible.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			And that is the point. The student is saying that using teachers' grades would have been wrong.

But if used for uni entry, the unis would have been overwhelmed.
		
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It's not what she's saying at all. Here's the quote in context

*"What do you think of the decision to get teachers to grade your A-Levels?*

I’m mostly in agreement with the policy. It would have been unfair to give everyone their predicted grades because a lot of schools inflate them, which would put our school at a disadvantage because many departments under-predict more than anything else."

So she's in favour of teachers setting the grades. It's confusing in the current context because we think that is the predicted grades, but it would seem that's not what they were talking about in April/May when the article was written.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There are likely to be more examples from state than independent because there are more of those to start with. It isn't just less popular subjects but smaller class sizes. This affects the amount of statistical manipulation possible.

Read this.

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I have read that piece and it is certainly long on data.

However,  the authors' conclusions seem to be based upon nothing more than their assumptions and opinions.

I am pretty sure that you would not be happy if such "research" was relied upon in the medical sector.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



*There's no good way to decide grades in the absence of exams *this year but I'd take the teacher's professional judgement over a computer program every time, even with this valid concern.

And, under the circumstances, I'd err on the side of over rather than under estimating grades. The kids leaving school this year are going to be badly affected by this either way, I'd prefer to help them as much as possible.
		
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I'd agree. Neither is ideal. Perhaps having later exams in September would have been the best option, although hindsight and all that.


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## drdel (Aug 15, 2020)

Kids given over inflated grades will struggle on their courses.

An independent method /algorithm is about the only objective approach


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

The other coronavirus thing I'm struggling with today is announcing arrivals from France will need to quarantine and giving people 24 hours (or whatever) notice to get back to avoid having to quarantine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2020)

Johnson and his crew were going to be known as the Brexit Government - but that's been a bit overtaken by the pandemic and so this could be the Covid Government.  But that's no good as Brexit was supposed to be this government's crowning achievement - so maybe they will be known in perpetuity as the Coxit Government...


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The other coronavirus thing I'm struggling with today is announcing arrivals from France will need to quarantine and giving people 24 hours (or whatever) notice to get back to avoid having to quarantine.
		
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There was a woman on tv this morning, beaming as she just beat the deadline. She was extra happy as later today she was going out with friends followed by seeing family she hadn't seen for months. Within the next few days she was going to visit her grandparents. She really didn't see any problem in what she was doing. 

I don't think the govt should have announced any leeway. If there was a problem with France then bring in the quarantine immediately. How can someone arriving at 3am this morning be safer than someone arriving at 5am this morning?


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## AmandaJR (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The other coronavirus thing I'm struggling with today is announcing arrivals from France will need to quarantine and giving people 24 hours (or whatever) notice to get back to avoid having to quarantine.
		
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I was rather hoping for a 2020 version of Dunkirk!


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## Ethan (Aug 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I have read that piece and it is certainly long on data.

However,  the authors' conclusions seem to be based upon nothing more than their assumptions and opinions.

I am pretty sure that you would not be happy if such "research" was relied upon in the medical sector.
		
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It is not "research" but "analysis" and the main news is on the front page:

_With more than 15 entrants in a given subject, Ofqual applied a moderation process that awarded grades based on schools’ and colleges’ historical performance.

In cases where five or fewer students from a particular establishment entered a subject, the grades proposed by their teachers (centre assessment grades) were used to award results. These were typically higher than the grades that the moderation process generated.

And for between five and 15 students a combination of the two approaches was used._

The schools with smaller class sizes didn't use moderation, or for intermediate sizes, use it to the same degree. That introduced a bias, because moderation tended to drive down grades whereas teacher assessment without moderation may have inflated them. You don't need to read any further. 

Just to be clear, prospectively the Govt approach was not unreasonable, using actual data with an attempt to adjust historically, but now it seems that this has introduced a bias. this needs to be fixed. The appeal process won't do that. The net effect of the grades awarded by teacher assessment will be to make more than expected from that population eligible for Uni. That therefore inevitably means fewer places for the rest unless HMG expands Uni places. 

Now, since you are so concerned with how this would be done in the medical sector, by which I assume you mean in clinical trials, so the answer to that is that if a bias is discovered in a data set for a new medicine seeking approval, then it will have to be dealt with by either additional statistical adjustment or additional data acquisition of the drug will not be approved.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was a woman on tv this morning, beaming as she just beat the deadline. She was extra happy as later today she was going out with friends followed by seeing family she hadn't seen for months. Within the next few days she was going to visit her grandparents. She really didn't see any problem in what she was doing.

I don't think the govt should have announced any leeway. If there was a problem with France then bring in the quarantine immediately. How can someone arriving at 3am this morning be safer than someone arriving at 5am this morning?
		
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Yip. Anyone travelling abroad in the last few weeks knew this was a possibility.


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## Papas1982 (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yip. Anyone travelling abroad in the last few weeks knew this was a possibility.
		
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True, but whilst the government (FCO) won’t blanket ban travel as they did during initial lockdown anyone with a holiday booked wont be covered by their insurance and will lose their money.

yes I know there are more important things, but if the government say it’s ok. Then they’ll go.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 15, 2020)

Our witless Transport Minister could not even understand the details of his own departments instructions.

Lions led by Donkeys.com.


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our witless Transport Minister could not even understand the details of his own departments instructions.

Lions led by Donkeys.com.
		
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Is that because the Scottish minister followed the UK government


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2020)

As someone who left before exams became vogue I always felt it rather sad that we continue to con the younger generation into thinking that exams are the bee all and end all of life and everyone should be going to university.

There also seemed to be a lot of college principals stepping up complaining about this years exam results, could it be more to do with the fact that most of them are on performance related pay.

It was also reported by the BBC at the start of the exams fiasco that 40% of schools that normally are amongst the poorest performing group all of a sudden have had a miraculous recovery in the grades issued by the teaching profession. Students have also been interviewed who have been given their university places on the requested course but still complain about the results they have been given even though when they pass their degree it will be irrelevant.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			True, but whilst the government (FCO) won’t blanket ban travel as they did during initial lockdown anyone with a holiday booked wont be covered by their insurance and will lose their money.

yes I know there are more important things, but if the government say it’s ok. Then they’ll go.
		
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True, it's all a bit of a mess.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			As someone who left before exams became vogue I always felt it rather sad that we continue to con the younger generation into thinking that exams are the bee all and end all of life and everyone should be going to university.

There also seemed to be a lot of college principals stepping up complaining about this years exam results, could it be more to do with the fact that most of them are on performance related pay.

It was also reported by the BBC at the start of the exams fiasco that 40% of schools that normally are amongst the poorest performing group all of a sudden have had a miraculous recovery in the grades issued by the teaching profession. Students have also been interviewed who have been given their university places on the requested course but still complain about the results they have been given even though when they pass their degree it will be irrelevant.
		
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Just on that last point. It's very true but we only come to appreciate that when we look back. When you're just leaving school your exam results seem all important.


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The other coronavirus thing I'm struggling with today is announcing arrivals from France will need to quarantine and giving people 24 hours (or whatever) notice to get back to avoid having to quarantine.
		
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Being reported, but it is the Mail, that the Scottish First Minister insisted on the timing even though the Welsh and UK Government wanted longer


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Being reported, but it is the Mail, that the Scottish First Minister insisted on the timing even though the Welsh and UK Government wanted longer
		
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If true, credit where it's due, good for her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2020)

Excoriating critique of Johnson, Cummings and crew by Max Hastings in The Times today.  Gove and Sunak aside - a bunch of lackeys only in post as they swore fealty to Johnson at the insistence of Cummings who is aiming for Presidential-style authority for Johnson - with Johnson alone raising policy initiatives all formulated by Cummings.


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Excoriating critique of Johnson, Cummings and crew by Max Hastings in The Times today.  Gove and Sunak aside - a bunch of lackeys only in post as they swore fealty to Johnson at the insistence of Cummings who is aiming for Presidential-style authority for Johnson - with Johnson alone raising policy initiatives all formulated by Cummings.
		
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In Hastings opinion. Not necessarily fact.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			In Hastings opinion. Not necessarily fact.
		
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Surely a journalist wouldn't spin anything to get a story out


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Surely a journalist wouldn't spin anything to get a story out
		
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Journalist used to report on facts, now they are as bad as politicians, Spout their personal views in the hole of influencing the gullible.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Journalist used to report on facts, now they are as bad as politicians, Spout their personal views in the hole of influencing the gullible.
		
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Totally agree, especially those writing feature columns. Unfair perhaps to tar them all with the same brush but it is certainly a trait amongst the majority


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## rulefan (Aug 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Journalist used to report on facts, now they are as bad as politicians, Spout their personal views in the hole of influencing the gullible.
		
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Hoe would you classify Huw Edwards?

I've noticed that when he makes an announcement about a government action or proposal, he always seems to follow it with 'but .....'


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Totally agree, especially those writing feature columns. Unfair perhaps to tar them all with the same brush but it is certainly a trait amongst the majority
		
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But that is the purpose of feature or comment pieces.

They are not intended to be impartial news reports.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Hoe would you classify Huw Edwards?

I've noticed that when he makes an announcement about a government action or proposal, he always seems to follow it with 'but .....'
		
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Huw Edwards is not a Hoe 😂😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2020)

And so a conservative commentator suggests that the current bunch are pretty useless - that they are not there on and real merit other than they swore fealty Johnson - a condition most likely demanded and therefore imposed by Cummings; that the cabinet are no more than stooges enacting Johnson policy and that that comes from Cummings; and that there are many very capable MPs and ex-ministers that could fill the positions - if only Johnson had the cojones to dump the current bunch. 

But that is all rubbish according to the usual suspects...I’d laugh if it were to so depressing a conclusion.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so a conservative commentator suggests that the current bunch are pretty useless - that they are not there on and real merit other than they swore fealty Johnson - a condition most likely demanded and therefore imposed by Cummings; that the cabinet are no more than stooges enacting Johnson policy and that that comes from Cummings; and that there are many very capable MPs and ex-ministers that could fill the positions - if only Johnson had the cojones to dump the current bunch.

But that is all rubbish according to the usual suspects...I’d laugh if it were to so depressing a conclusion.
		
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Hastings critique could have been directed at any front bench on either side of the House in the past 25 years. 

The growth of personality politics means that no party leader wants his or her front benchers to be like the political giants of the past as that could risk the leadership being overshadowed.

The problem is that Hastings continues to live in the past and does not appear to recognise this change in politics. 

Not that I am suggesting that it has been a change for the better. IMO we benefited when there were strong minds alongside the pary leaders.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			There's a reason why teacher's aren't permitted anywhere near a live exam anymore...they have a vested interest.
		
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Didn’t know that, maybe they should stay away from coursework as well. 
I was given three subjects of coursework to copy from as I just didn’t do mine nor did I attend school barely the last two years.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 16, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Hastings critique could have been directed at any front bench on either side of the House in the past 25 years.

The growth of personality politics means that no party leader wants his or her front benchers to be like the political giants of the past as that could risk the leadership being overshadowed.

The problem is that Hastings continues to live in the past and does not appear to recognise this change in politics.

Not that I am suggesting that it has been a change for the better. IMO we benefited when there were strong minds alongside the pary leaders.
		
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I agree with your comments ref Hastings and your last paragraph, but isn’t it time we stopped using the excuse of “the last 25 years” or “it could be any party” or “it’s always been that way” etc?

Maybe it’s time to say enough is enough and we should consign the past to history and change the future rather than accepting it.

Calling out issues in the Government doesn’t make a person anti-tory, no more than calling out issues in the Opposition anti-Labour.

All parties have problems and they should be faced rather than accepted.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree with your comments ref Hastings and your last paragraph, but isn’t it time we stopped using the excuse of “the last 25 years” or “it could be any party” or “it’s always been that way” etc?

Maybe it’s time to say enough is enough and we should consign the past to history and change the future rather than accepting it.

Calling out issues in the Government doesn’t make a person anti-tory, no more than calling out issues in the Opposition anti-Labour.

All parties have problems and they should be faced rather than accepted.
		
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I'm sorry but I thought my last paragraph made it clear what my view is on this unfortunate development. 

I certainly wasn't aware of offering recent history as an excuse, more a case of placing in context.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 16, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I'm sorry but I thought my last paragraph made it clear what my view is on this unfortunate development.

I certainly wasn't aware of offering recent history as an excuse, more a case of placing in context.
		
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That’s why I said “we” when mentioning excuses.
The whole article is about how johnson and cummings are trying to change the “playbook” and calls this Government/Cabinet out as “the least impressive of the last century”

Your opening paragraph in relation to the article misses the point imo.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s why I said “we” when mentioning excuses.
The whole article is about how johnson and cummings are trying to change the “playbook” and calls this Government/Cabinet out as “the least impressive of the last century”

Your opening paragraph in relation to the article misses the point imo.

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But my point was that it is not a recent development and I cannot remember when there was last  an impressive Government. 

When I first voted there were some truly significant politicians around. Just look at the Wilson era when he had the likes of Brown, Callaghan, Healey, et al.

But then it evolved into personality politics. Thatcher or Foot, Blair or Major, Johnson or Corbyn. 

The result has been that policies are all completely dictated from the party leaders and their own advisers and strong politicians are not needed. 

My point about Hastings' article is that I completely agree about the overall quality of the current Cabinet but this isn't going to change until the attitude of the electorate itself changes.

And whether this lot is any worse than some who have gone before is irrelevant, few if any have been impressive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 16, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But my point was that it is not a recent development and I cannot remember when there was last  an impressive Government.

When I first voted there were some truly significant politicians around. Just look at the Wilson era when he had the likes of Brown, Callaghan, Healey, et al.

But then it evolved into personality politics. Thatcher or Foot, Blair or Major, Johnson or Corbyn.

The result has been that policies are all completely dictated from the party leaders and their own advisers and strong politicians are not needed.

My point about Hastings' article is that I completely agree about the overall quality of the current Cabinet but this isn't going to change until the attitude of the electorate itself changes.

And whether this lot is any worse than some who have gone before is irrelevant, few if any have been impressive.
		
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No worries mate, I read the article as more about the style of Government and the agenda of johnson and cummings and what they are trying to do, hence surrounding themselves with a weak Cabinet, more about the motives of the leadership not giving the strong backbenchers a chance/choice.

As he says in the article if any previous Governments had attempted to behave the way thay are, the parties themselves would of stopped it or been called out publicly.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No worries mate, I read the article as more about the style of Government and the agenda of johnson and cummings and what they are trying to do, hence surrounding themselves with a weak Cabinet, more about the motives of the leadership not giving the strong backbenchers a chance/choice.

As he says in the article if any previous Governments had attempted to behave the way thay are, the parties themselves would of stopped it or been called out publicly.
		
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But that's it. I would like to think that it might have been different under previous Governments. 

I'm just not certain that it would have been. 

For example Heseltine and to a lesser extent Howe stood up to Thatcher but plenty of others didn't.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 16, 2020)

Having had a weeks notice of what happened with the Scottish exam results I can't believe that the English system did not anticipate a similar outcome


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

But the argument, even though it is a whatabouttery and a gaslighting combination, that previous Govts were essentially no different is irrelevant, even if it cannot be proven to be false. Each Govt has to deal with the challenges it faces, whether those challenges occur as a result of the actions of previous Govts of the same or different flavour or force majeure, and be accountable for them. If we are now at the stage where we expect nothing but incompetence and corruption from any of them, then society is truly doomed. 

I have no doubt that Labour would have made mistakes if it was handling Covid, but I doubt there would be quite the same amount of throwing loads of money at private sector companies singularly unqualified to do the job asked of them, and there would have been more real support, being hand clapping, for the NHS and public health.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But the argument, even though it is a whatabouttery and a gaslighting combination, that previous Govts were essentially no different is irrelevant, even if it cannot be proven to be false. Each Govt has to deal with the challenges it faces, whether those challenges occur as a result of the actions of previous Govts of the same or different flavour or force majeure, and be accountable for them. If we are now at the stage where we expect nothing but incompetence and corruption from any of them, then society is truly doomed.

I have no doubt that Labour would have made mistakes if it was handling Covid, but I doubt there would be quite the same amount of throwing loads of money at private sector companies singularly unqualified to do the job asked of them, and there would have been more real support, being hand clapping, for the NHS and public health.
		
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And labour would have "bankrupted" the country in a way only the Tory's can save.... By doing the same amount of debt but Tory's ofc is necessary and labour is unstable....


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 16, 2020)

I hope the girl on the left wasn't protesting about her grade in English......


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			And labour would have "bankrupted" the country in a way only the Tory's can save.... By doing the same amount of debt but Tory's ofc is necessary and labour is unstable....
		
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A classic 'Tory response' that, I believe, is unwarranted - but is an incredibly effective 'weapon'! 
Both parties have made serious financial blunders - and will continue to do so imo! PFI was the worst of the Conservative Party's imo! Labour actually handled the post-Lehman crisis rather well imo, though they still got hammered for 'being in power when it happened'! Some of the Covid initiatives will almost certainly cost huge amounts - but can actually be portrayed positively, so not too much damage. 
Mind you, Labour seems, to me, to move significantly 'left' as a consequence, which, imo, has done them no favours. It'll be 'interesting' to see whether the new leader changes the drift into 'unelectability'!
The Conservatives have always been 'guilty' of 'granting contracts to their sponsors/mates', but I'm certain Labour used/provided the same folk too - purely because 'Business' is naturally 'right wing'! So, much of it comes down purely to ideology rather effectiveness imo. Has splitting Water and Power into a myriad of companies been beneficial - to the country as a whole? Likewise has the split of the Railways? TfL seems to run extremely well as mix - The Underground (publicly run I believe) being highly efficient, if regularly 'uncomfortably crowded'!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But the argument, even though it is a whatabouttery and a gaslighting combination, that previous Govts were essentially no different is irrelevant, even if it cannot be proven to be false. Each Govt has to deal with the challenges it faces, whether those challenges occur as a result of the actions of previous Govts of the same or different flavour or force majeure, and be accountable for them. If we are now at the stage where we expect nothing but incompetence and corruption from any of them, then society is truly doomed
		
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Certainly no whataboutery on my part. Nor meek acceptance of the situation. 

Merely sadness that politics should have descended to the level that it has. 

And it can only be changed by the electorate making it clear that their vote will be decided by issues and policies. 

But whilst "Personality Politics" remains the order of the day I don't foresee any party leader acting unilaterally. 

As to proving that the current Government is any better or worse than its predecessors on this issue I will only say that we do not know the answer as ultimately it is all about opinions and perceptions.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			A classic 'Tory response' that, I believe, is unwarranted - but is an incredibly effective 'weapon'!
Both parties have made serious financial blunders - and will continue to do so imo! PFI was the worst of the Conservative Party's imo! Labour actually handled the post-Lehman crisis rather well imo, though they still got hammered for 'being in power when it happened'! Some of the Covid initiatives will almost certainly cost huge amounts - but can actually be portrayed positively, so not too much damage.
Mind you, Labour seems, to me, to move significantly 'left' as a consequence, which, imo, has done them no favours. It'll be 'interesting' to see whether the new leader changes the drift into 'unelectability'!
The Conservatives have always been 'guilty' of 'granting contracts to their sponsors/mates', but I'm certain Labour used/provided the same folk too - purely because 'Business' is naturally 'right wing'! So, much of it comes down purely to ideology rather effectiveness imo. Has splitting Water and Power into a myriad of companies been beneficial - to the country as a whole? Likewise has the split of the Railways? TfL seems to run extremely well as mix - The Underground (publicly run I believe) being highly efficient, if regularly 'uncomfortably crowded'!
		
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Did you miss the sarcasm in my post?

And tfl is a poor example ATM with our bailout .. but mainly because the Tory's cut out grant.. without the grant we needed a bailout and they used it to get more control of the board 

One step closer to privatising


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Did you miss the sarcasm in my post?
...
		
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Unfortunately, Yes!


pauljames87 said:



			...
And tfl is a poor example ATM with our bailout .. but mainly because the Tory's cut out grant.. without the grant we needed a bailout and they used it to get more control of the board

One step closer to privatising
		
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Ah! Hadn't heard/noticed that. Not altogether certain whether that's good or bad - though I certainly distrust Boris's motives. (Additional) 'Tory'/Business approach at Board level is not, necessarily, a bad thing imo, but I strongly suspect there's more to it than that! Certainly LU been financially unsustainable for months, so a direct - and continuing - bailout was/is/will be inevitable. Presumably, the grant was based on numbers of passengers? Covid has simply made certain services liabilities!


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## pauljames87 (Aug 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, Yes!

Ah! Hadn't heard/noticed that. Not altogether certain whether that's good or bad - though I certainly distrust Boris's motives. (Additional) 'Tory'/Business approach at Board level is not, necessarily, a bad thing imo, but I strongly suspect there's more to it than that! Certainly LU been financially unsustainable for months, so a direct - and continuing - bailout was/is/will be inevitable. Presumably, the grant was based on numbers of passengers? Covid has simply made certain services liabilities!
		
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Finances were ver healthy before covid with billions in the bank but in 3 months of covid we burned through to the money we have to keep in bank to cover basic running costs 

So we got bailed out with a terrible conditions
Raising congestion charge and making it 7 days a week / until 10 pm
Getting rid of free travel for under 18s and for over 60s (in peak for that one)
Raising fares (agreed with that one)
2 Tories have to sit on the board 
All sickness reported to central government

Every other train op company just given money zero conditions


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			And labour would have "bankrupted" the country in a way only the Tory's can save.... By doing the same amount of debt but Tory's ofc is necessary and labour is unstable....
		
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If Labour had splashed out the same amount of money, I doubt they would have lobbed as much at some of the Tory donors and might have at least spent it with


MetalMickie said:



			Certainly no whataboutery on my part. Nor meek acceptance of the situation.

Merely sadness that politics should have descended to the level that it has.

And it can only be changed by the electorate making it clear that their vote will be decided by issues and policies.

But whilst "Personality Politics" remains the order of the day I don't foresee any party leader acting unilaterally.

As to proving that the current Government is any better or worse than its predecessors on this issue I will only say that we do not know the answer as ultimately it is all about opinions and perceptions.
		
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But would you agree that simply dismissing them all as being as bad as each other does little to select out those who have served the country particularly badly?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If Labour had splashed out the same amount of money, I doubt they would have lobbed as much at some of the Tory donors and might have at least spent it with


But would you agree that simply dismissing them all as being as bad as each other does little to select out those who have served the country particularly badly?
		
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I appreciate that it may seem that way although it was not my intention.

However, my greater concern is how are we to stop this downward spiral?

I see Johnson rightly referred to  as a populist PM but then so was Thatcher, so was Blair. What can be done to get the "floating voter" to look beyond the personalities and onto issues and policies.

Until that happens we are likely to see front benches occupied dominating leaders and their acolytes.


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I appreciate that it may seem that way although it was not my intention.

However, my greater concern is how are we to stop this downward spiral?

I see Johnson rightly referred to  as a populist PM but then so was Thatcher, so was Blair. What can be done to get the "floating voter" to look beyond the personalities and onto issues and policies.

Until that happens we are likely to see from benches occupied dominating leaders and their acolytes.
		
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I detested Thatcher and have mixed feelings about Blair but neither were populists. They both used their personalities and had a style but neither took decisions they thought were in advisable in order to pander to public opinion. Nor did they create a false enemy in the elite.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I detested Thatcher and have mixed feelings about Blair but neither were populists. They both used their personalities and had a style but neither took decisions they thought were in advisable in order to pander to public opinion. Nor did they create a false enemy in the elite.
		
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Thatcher created enemies to suit and Blair was a populist from the point of view of having absolutely no ideology. 

He would  IMO have quite happily stood as a Conservative if he had thought it would have more quickly led to power.


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## drdel (Aug 16, 2020)

If you look around celebritisation has hit virtually every sector. Newscasters, reporters, presenters, sports personalities, reality candidates, company chair persons, etc use heavy PR to add value to themselves as a 'brand'.

It's unfortunately spread into politics but it's not surprising given the media try to personalise pretty much everything.


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Thatcher created enemies to suit and Blair was a populist from the point of view of having absolutely no ideology.

He would  IMO have quite happily stood as a Conservative if he had thought it would have more quickly led to power.
		
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Populism isn’t the same as having no ideology, which anyway I don’t think is accurate for Blair. Populism is about convincing put upon people that their lot is all the fault of the elite and the establishment and they will get a voice now. If anything the populism arose from Tory opponents who tried to characterise Blair as that. 

Farage is the arch populist of recent times.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Populism isn’t the same as having no ideology, which anyway I don’t think is accurate for Blair. Populism is about convincing put upon people that their lot is all the fault of the elite and the establishment and they will get a voice now. If anything the populism arose from Tory opponents who tried to characterise Blair as that.

Farage is the arch populist of recent times.
		
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We will just have to agree to disagree on Blair. 

I have the same level of contempt for  him and his lying friend Campbell that I hold for Thatcher.

"Things can only get better!" 

What a joke.


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			We will just have to agree to disagree on Blair.

I have the same level of contempt for  him and his lying friend Campbell that I hold for Thatcher.

"Things can only get better!"

What a joke.
		
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That’s all fine. My point is basically that courting popularity and being a populist are not the same thing. You can hate him but that doesn’t make him a populist.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That’s all fine. My point is basically that courting popularity and being a populist are not the same thing. You can hate him but that doesn’t make him a populist.
		
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He was certainly seen by many as often adopting a populist style.

That may or may not define him as a populist. 

Using a strict definition of populism it might be said that Western Europe (inc; UK) has not seen a true populist leader since WW2.


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## DRW (Aug 17, 2020)

More good news on T cells and cross protection, along with 'easier' testing starting to come on line :-

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2931008-4

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-53764640

We really need to get this stuff rolled out as soon as possible and letting people know and find were we are and get the economy moving better.


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## Mudball (Aug 17, 2020)

DRW said:



			More good news on T cells and cross protection, along with 'easier' testing starting to come on line :-

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2931008-4

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-53764640

We really need to get this stuff rolled out as soon as possible and letting people know and find were we are and get the economy moving better.
		
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Lets not jump the gun...  A good & stable leader with a contrarian approach would say, we should not test so many people...  there seems to be an increase in cases as soon as testing is increased.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

DRW said:



			More good news on T cells and cross protection, along with 'easier' testing starting to come on line :-

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2931008-4

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-53764640

We really need to get this stuff rolled out as soon as possible and letting people know and find were we are and get the economy moving better.
		
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The T Cell story is the real story of immunity. There are some who think that we are approaching herd immunity through the combination of antibodies and T Cell activation. I hope they are right, but would need to see better evidence to be convinced.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Lets not jump the gun...  A good & stable leader with a contrarian approach would say, we should not test so many people...  there seems to be an increase in cases as soon as testing is increased.
		
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Not sure if you're being somewhat sarcastic here, but

As I understand this, it is not testing for those who have Covid, it's testing for those with antibodies and/or T cells. I.e those who have had Covid some time previous. Thus giving an idea of the level of immunity in the population.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 17, 2020)

And yet another U-turn...what an utter shambles and still further evidence of a completely incompetent government.

Williamson is responsible for Ofqual - if he didn't know of the furore that was likely then why not?  If he did know of the likely furore then why did he let it happen? - then double down on his decision when the issue exploded.  And then - along with his boss- he told us that the Sturgeon's Scottish U-turn was WRONG and not right for England.  And that's what they are now doing.  Honest to god.

And as usual - no personal apology yet from Williamson.  Oh he's sorry for the upset that has come about - but nothing in respect of any notion of taking responsibility.  In the end he is totally responsible - he is the Education Secretary. He should resign - but most probably he won't such is the level of arrogance of too many in this government.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

I assume that each year, universities make offers to more people than there are places available, knowing that based on marking systems and predictable percentage pass rates, there will not be an oversupply of successful candidates. Like airlines overbooking to allow for no shows. But we know teacher assessments are higher than actual exam scores, so that is the same as more passengers turning up. 

This year that system has been thrown out of the window. France have seen this coming and announced an increase in Uni places but some courses just can't do that due to lecture or tutor space or the need to provide specific training, e.g. medical students and hospital attachments.

The UK is going to have to do the same as France, isn't it?


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## pauljames87 (Aug 17, 2020)

Only fair way to make it happen

Thankfully it's happened now


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## pendodave (Aug 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And yet another U-turn...what an utter shambles and still further evidence of a completely incompetent government.

Williamson is responsible for Ofqual - if he didn't know of the furore that was likely then why not?  If he did know of the likely furore then why did he let it happen? - then double down on his decision when the issue exploded.  And then - along with his boss- he told us that the Sturgeon's Scottish U-turn was WRONG and not right for England.  And that's what they are now doing.  Honest to god.

And as usual - no personal apology yet from Williamson.  Oh he's sorry for the upset that has come about - but nothing in respect of any notion of taking responsibility.  In the end he is totally responsible - he is the Education Secretary. He should resign - but most probably he won't such is the level of arrogance of too many in this government.
		
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Its been "government" by sticking a finger in the air to see which way the wind's blowing since February. 
The only thing they've held a position on is Cummings. 
Hey ho...


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## pendodave (Aug 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Only fair way to make it happen

Thankfully it's happened now
		
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Thankfully it might have been best if it happened BEFORE the s***show, rather than after....


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2020)

Simply the common-sense thing to do! Though it passes the buck somewhat to Universities, who were, no doubt, expecting some sort of reduction in numbers from 'the usual' downgrading resulting from actual exam results.

Shows a complete lack of common sense by Government, imo, as they had already had the warning from Scotland of the sort of s...-storm they were letting themselves in for! Whether it will work out for those 'on the cusp' is a different matter, but it certainly gives them an opportunity to continue in education for the next year and re-assess their prospects, hopefully by when this pandemic is 'beaten'!

But an embarrassing and totally avoidable about face all the same! With a surprising lack of common-sense leadership demonstrated!


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## pendodave (Aug 17, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			With a surprising lack of common-sense leadership demonstrated!
		
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Really????
If anyone's surprised, they really haven't been paying attention.
(Apologies if this was written using the 'extreme irony' font).


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And yet another U-turn...what an utter shambles and still further evidence of a completely incompetent government.

Williamson is responsible for Ofqual - if he didn't know of the furore that was likely then why not?  If he did know of the likely furore then why did he let it happen? - then double down on his decision when the issue exploded.  And then - along with his boss- he told us that the Sturgeon's Scottish U-turn was WRONG and not right for England.  And that's what they are now doing.  Honest to god.

And as usual - no personal apology yet from Williamson.  Oh he's sorry for the upset that has come about - but nothing in respect of any notion of taking responsibility.  In the end he is totally responsible - he is the Education Secretary. He should resign - but most probably he won't such is the level of arrogance of too many in this government.
		
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I presume by your post you are including all 4 governments of incompetence as they all came to the same U Turn or is this a selective incompetence.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I presume by your post you are including all 4 governments of incompetence as they all came to the same U Turn or is this a selective incompetence.
		
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NI did not do the moderation thing. My niece over there was happy with her teacher-assessed grades which will get her into her chosen Uni.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I presume by your post you are including all 4 governments of incompetence as they all came to the same U Turn or is this a selective incompetence.
		
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I'm talking about *this *government....no other government - *this *one.  A government that had seen what had happened in Scotland and what Sturgeon had to do - (she said she was sorry) but continued to insist on their way.  And yet Johnson and Williamson doubled down...talking up a system that Johnson called a 'robust and dependable' system.  So what you think?  Just for a change how about addressing yet another abject failure of this government.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			NI did not do the moderation thing. My niece over there was happy with her teacher-assessed grades which will get her into her chosen Uni.
		
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NI only originally said teachers assessment would only count on GCSE results because most A level papers were set by English exams boards, they did there Albert Turner on A levels at the same time as the UK Government as just reported on BBC.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm talking about *this *government....no other government - *this *one.  A government that had seen what had happened in Scotland and what Sturgeon had to do - (she said she was sorry) but continued to insist on their way.  And yet Johnson and Williamson doubled down...talking up a system that Johnson called a 'robust and dependable' system.  So what you think?  Just for a change how about addressing yet another abject failure of this government.
		
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Ive got, it’s fine for the devolved government to U Turn but not this one, or are you just being your normal hypercritical self.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm talking about *this *government....no other government - *this *one.  A government that had seen what had happened in Scotland and what Sturgeon had to do - (she said she was sorry) but continued to insist on their way.  And yet Johnson and Williamson doubled down...talking up a system that Johnson called a 'robust and dependable' system.  So what you think?  Just for a change how about addressing yet another abject failure of this government.
		
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It is OK for Govt's to get stuff wrong provided they had been making a good faith effort to do it right. It's those unknown unknown that usually get them. But if they do get it wrong, they should admit as much and fix it. It is the pressing on and doubling down that really pisses off people. On Covid, for example, if the Govt said, "look we got some of this wrong. To make sure we get it right, we are going to involve a braider group of experts, including [some currently independent voices].", then I think that would bring a lot of people on board. But that is not the modern political style.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			NI only originally said teachers assessment would only count on GCSE results because most A level papers were set by English exams boards, they did there Albert Turner on A levels at the same time as the UK Government as just reported on BBC.
		
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You are correct.


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## pendodave (Aug 17, 2020)

I was thinking that the blue rince _cohortes praetoriae _were a little slow off the mark this afternoon...
Maybe they have a sense of shame after all? Who knew...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm talking about *this *government....no other government - *this *one.  A government that had seen what had happened in Scotland and what Sturgeon had to do - (she said she was sorry) but continued to insist on their way.  And yet Johnson and Williamson doubled down...talking up a system that Johnson called a 'robust and dependable' system.  So what you think?  Just for a change how about addressing yet another abject failure of this government.
		
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Lots of Scottish Unionists desperately deleting any social media Wee Krankie guff they have been spouting for the last fortnight.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 17, 2020)

Looks to me like a few people will be having humble pie for Tea.

Good to see Teachers graded being trusted.


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Looks to me like a few people will be having humble pie for Tea.

Good to see Teachers graded being trusted.

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But what will happen with those who disagreed with their teacher’s assessment or as a result ended up with a lover grade.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			But what will happen with those who disagreed with their teacher’s assessment or as a result ended up with a lover grade.
		
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That’s another “cop out” williamson said those who’d been given a higher grade by the algothrim will be allowed to keep the higher grade!

Absolute shambles!


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## Old Skier (Aug 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s another “cop out” williamson said those who’d been given a higher grade by the algothrim will be allowed to keep the higher grade!

Absolute shambles!
		
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Jess Phillips is now suggesting that next year’s students should be graded by their teachers.


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## Beezerk (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Jess Phillips is now suggesting that next year’s students should be graded by their teachers.
		
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She would!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Jess Phillips is now suggesting that next year’s students should be graded by their teachers.
		
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Might not be a bad thing to put something in place now and review it after 4-6 months or whatever. Make the Teachers more accountable etc.

God knows what will happen if we do get hit by the virus badly again in the winter.

Can’t be any more a fiasco than this year.

Whatever is decided the kids should be the priority.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 17, 2020)




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## pendodave (Aug 17, 2020)

Just read (might not be true, so apologies if not) that following her successful role heading up the world leading test and trace effort, dido harding will be leading the mooted replacement for PHE...
What could possibly go right???
Hey ho and on we go...


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Just read (might not be true, so apologies if not) that following her successful role heading up the world leading test and trace effort, dido harding will be leading the mooted replacement for PHE...
What could possibly go right???
Hey ho and on we go...
		
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It is precisely the wrong thing to do. They have been shown what works and what doesn't, so the response is to allow the part that doesn't work to run the part that does. PHE has been slowly neglected for years, and Public Health has been undervalued for even longer. Most PH is not pandemic stuff, it is following up meningitis, food poisoning, STDs, working with other agencies on everything from for labelling to anti-suicide strategies. Dido has no clue at all about any of this, and nobody has the time to teach her, so we can expect all these things to get neglected further. NHS Test and Trace as currently contracted should be scrapped and Serco told to sling their overpriced hooks. Testing should be properly devolved to local bodies and testing criteria set locally, so contacts of cases can and should be tested, and so some idea how many people have bee tested, as opposed to how many tests have been posted out.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Jess Phillips is now suggesting that next year’s students should be graded by their teachers.
		
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Well, she has a point. Some students will get in to Uni this year who wouldn't get in next year. If I was one of next years, I might consider that unfair. Maybe a transitional process is needed. 

The Govt wil have to increase student numbers this year. The net effect of teacher assessment is that more students will get qualifying grades. Most courses will have to increase numbers, and for some like Medicine whose numbers are set by Govt, those guidelines will have to change. Then in 5 years, they will need more Housemen jobs for those graduates in Medicine or see they will go overseas. 

My old Uni, Queens in Belfast has just issued a statement on this. It references the NI arrangements, but same issue across the UK. 

QUB statement


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## drdel (Aug 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			NI only originally said teachers assessment would only count on GCSE results because most A level papers were set by English exams boards, they did there Albert Turner on A levels at the same time as the UK Government as just reported on BBC.
		
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Grade inflation has been going on for decades; especially when Schools are publicly 'ranked'/assessed.

In my experience even 'A' graded maths/science undergraduates' skills are pretty dire - even p.grad Masters level candidates cannot be guaranteed to be competent in quantitative methods.

It does not do anything other than give students unreal expectations and employers disappointment.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 17, 2020)

I'm still puzzled that it seems to be simply accepted that teachers will over estimate student grades. Not once have I heard any criticism of that - simply that it's fact. Surely they're professional people who should be accurate and trustworthy when it comes to assessing their students.

As for unreal expectations. The numbers of students requiring special measures for exams - extra time, supervised rest breaks, lap tops etc is surely only adding to that. When they hit the real world employers aren't going to accept it takes them 25% longer to do the same job, or that they need 5 minutes rest every half an hour.

Not really coronavirus as such but this current debacle shines a light on a system which for me is setting many up for failure.

Government's handling has been shocking (before my resident stalker feels the need to argue with me)...all the tools seem far too blunt and can't understand why there hasn't been a more student-based rather than school-based system. After all their papers would have all been individually marked.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 18, 2020)

Ha ha ha - Gavin Williamson being torn a new one by Louise Minchen - *Louise Minchen* - holy cow he is awful!


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Ha ha ha - Gavin Williamson being torn a new one by Louise Minchen - *Louise Minchen* - holy cow he is awful!
		
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Very poor wasn't he? Better to front up and be straight. Instead he ignored the questions and waffled his script. Has to be gone soon, surely.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 18, 2020)

Interesting college head on the radio yesterday afternoon. 

'Awarding grades based on teachers assessments is not a good method but it is the least worst option.'

'Comparing next years grades to this years is pointless. Compare them to 2019 students. 2020 is an anomaly, accept that and move on'

The above isn't word for word but it is close. I think it was a fair assessment of where we are at, how to deal with this and move on.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting college head on the radio yesterday afternoon.

'Awarding grades based on teachers assessments is not a good method but it is the least worst option.'

'Comparing next years grades to this years is pointless. Compare them to 2019 students. 2020 is an anomaly, accept that and move on'

The above isn't word for word but it is close. I think it was a fair assessment of where we are at, how to deal with this and move on.
		
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I heard that too and it makes sense but I'm not sure how much A Level grades count down the line? If you go to Uni and get a degree then I assume that grade supercedes the A Levels and down the line on a CV will be the marker of the individual. Not sure about those that leave mainstream education and whether their 3 A*s would favour them versus the 3 Bs an equally good candidate got through "fairer" means?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Jess Phillips is now suggesting that next year’s students should be graded by their teachers.
		
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You'll be glad she's not in government then and so her views will make little difference to what happens.  We should be asking the PM and education minister about the government's contingency plan for next year.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm talking about *this *government....no other government - *this *one.  _A government that had seen what had happened in Scotland and what Sturgeon had to do - (she said she was sorry) but continued to insist on their way._  And yet Johnson and Williamson doubled down...talking up a system that Johnson called a 'robust and dependable' system.  So what you think?  Just for a change how about addressing yet another abject failure of this government.
		
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This exactly the reason i posted 'surprising lack of common-sense leadership'!
I can forgive, up to a point, mistakes made in the battle against Covid. But (as per the italicised bit) they had warning from Scotland's 'experience' and should have known that the same was going to happen in England. Completely shambolic! Perfectly described as 'abject failure by this government' by SILH!


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			Grade inflation has been going on for decades; especially when Schools are publicly 'ranked'/assessed.

In my experience even 'A' graded maths/science undergraduates' skills are pretty dire - even p.grad Masters level candidates cannot be guaranteed to be competent in quantitative methods.

It does not do anything other than give students unreal expectations and employers disappointment.
		
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Grade inflation would not be a problem if each grade was allocated to a certain percentage of candidates, e.g. an A* to the top 5%, and A to the next 10% and so on.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting college head on the radio yesterday afternoon.

'Awarding grades based on teachers assessments is not a good method but it is the least worst option.'

'Comparing next years grades to this years is pointless. Compare them to 2019 students. 2020 is an anomaly, accept that and move on'

The above isn't word for word but it is close. I think it was a fair assessment of where we are at, how to deal with this and move on.
		
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The effects of this year will be very much there next year. It seems likely that many students will be allocated places, but deferred ones because there is not room for them. This is a concern in Medicine, for example, so they will get places next year, which will then squeeze availability for next years students who have also been denied a term and half of ket education and whose grades will be affected.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm still puzzled that it seems to be simply accepted that teachers will over estimate student grades. *Not once have I heard any criticism of that -* simply that it's fact. Surely they're professional people who should be accurate and trustworthy when it comes to assessing their students.

As for unreal expectations. The numbers of students requiring special measures for exams - extra time, supervised rest breaks, lap tops etc is surely only adding to that. When they hit the real world employers aren't going to accept it takes them 25% longer to do the same job, or that they need 5 minutes rest every half an hour.

Not really coronavirus as such but this current debacle shines a light on a system which for me is setting many up for failure.

Government's handling has been shocking (before my resident stalker feels the need to argue with me)...all the tools seem far too blunt and can't understand why there hasn't been a more student-based rather than school-based system. After all their papers would have all been individually marked.
		
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Don't know what you've been listening to - but I have heard plenty of comment and criticism of teachers over-estimating...


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## drdel (Aug 18, 2020)

The 'grade' a student attains is supposed to indicate and reflect the level and capability achieved in that subject that can then be built upon and used by an employer or future study. Grade inflation is a reality. In the past we in the UK would look down on the USA degrees. 

I can tell you that some of the material I used in US universities undergraduate course was beyond that of a few UK post grad students. 

Dishonesty in grading does the UK harm in the long run.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
In my experience even 'A' graded maths/science undergraduates' skills are pretty dire -* even p.grad Masters level candidates cannot be guaranteed to be competent in quantitative methods*.
...
		
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Re the bold bit...Surely, that a criticism of the University/ies, as opposed to Schools, as they've, presumably, passed their Uni's exams for 3 years.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't know what you've been listening to - but I have heard plenty of comment and criticism of teachers over-estimating...
		
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And as a School's 'rating' is significantly influenced by academic achievement(s), 'the system' encourages them to do so!


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The effects of this year will be very much there next year. It seems likely that many students will be allocated places, but deferred ones because there is not room for them. This is a concern in Medicine, for example, so they will get places next year, which will then squeeze availability for next years students who have also been denied a term and half of ket education and whose grades will be affected.
		
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A number of universtities are restricting the number of deferrments as they were receiving so many requests for it. Due to covid the year is not going to be what a lot were hoping for so the rush to defer has been big. The worry you mention is a very real one and hopefully this has been addressed. It will though affect next years intake no matter as there are bound tobe more deferrments than usual, meaning less spaces available overall for them.


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## GB72 (Aug 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A number of universtities are restricting the number of deferrments as they were receiving so many requests for it. Due to covid the year is not going to be what a lot were hoping for so the rush to defer has been big. The worry you mention is a very real one and hopefully this has been addressed. It will though affect next years intake no matter as there are bound tobe more deferrments than usual, meaning less spaces available overall for them.
		
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This is an interesting point. I wonder if a percentage are looking to defer their place based on the social aspect of university being curtailed rather than any issues on the educational side of things. In that case I have less sympathy for those concerned. 

Appreciate the issues with spaces etc but was it not only a few months ago that universities were making the case for additional funding as they were going to have a massively reduced intake of foreign students. Surely this would allow greater capacity for UK based students to fill those gaps. 

Looking at this purely from a practical point of view and not making any particular political statement.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I heard that too and it makes sense but I'm not sure how much A Level grades count down the line? If you go to Uni and get a degree then I assume that grade supercedes the A Levels and down the line on a CV will be the marker of the individual. Not sure about those that leave mainstream education and whether their 3 A*s would favour them versus the 3 Bs an equally good candidate got through "fairer" means?
		
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I think you are dead right. The moment you walk through the door at university your A levels are close to forgotten. If you leave after A levels then as soon as you start a job work experience becomes more important to the next employer. It is all just a bit raw for people at the moment.

I think what may be interesting is to look at the drop out level, failure level at university this coming year at the end of it. Will it be greater as too many went that are not actually capable of the courses they applied to or will they be okay? It has been pointed out, quite fairly imo, that this problem has been dumped onto the universities to sort out. They could be having a very tricky year, or two.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A number of universtities are restricting the number of deferrments as they were receiving so many requests for it. Due to covid the year is not going to be what a lot were hoping for so the rush to defer has been big. The worry you mention is a very real one and hopefully this has been addressed. It will though affect next years intake no matter as there are bound tobe more deferrments than usual, meaning less spaces available overall for them.
		
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But it is not possible to address it  easily for something like Medicine where national Uni places are controlled and linked to numbers of junior hospital jobs available for those graduates. If they don't defer this year, there will be too many students. If they defer, there will be fewer places for next years A level students.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 18, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is an interesting point. I wonder if a percentage are looking to defer their place based on the social aspect of university being curtailed rather than any issues on the educational side of things. In that case I have less sympathy for those concerned.

Appreciate the issues with spaces etc but was it not only a few months ago that universities were making the case for additional funding as they were going to have a massively reduced intake of foreign students. Surely this would allow greater capacity for UK based students to fill those gaps.

Looking at this purely from a practical point of view and not making any particular political statement.
		
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Going off my daughters school, she spoke to the head of 6th form a few weeks ago, it was then entirely down to the university experience being very different to what they hope it would be. They wanted to delay a year hoping that life would be back to normal. 

It covers both aspects to be fair, social and teaching. I'll have two kids away this acedemic year. In the first term both will have online lectures only. They will have small tutor groups but not proper lectures as was. You will not see your whole course group together at any stage. There are a host of restrictions related to mixing. Less of an issue for my son, yr 3, but significant for my daughter yr 1. How does she make new friends? How does she find people to live with next year beyond her immediate bubble of flatmates in halls, you have to arrange that prior to Christmas to have anything decent. I don't blame anyone looking to defer.


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## howbow88 (Aug 18, 2020)

There's also the fact that the vast majority of unis aren't offering reductions in their fees. Uni is about more than just getting a degree.


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## GB72 (Aug 18, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			There's also the fact that the vast majority of unis aren't offering reductions in their fees. Uni is about more than just getting a degree.
		
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Not sure why they would need to. OK, things may have changed since my day but back then lectures were not in any way interactive and contained a number of class groups and so, on a basic level, were no different to watching the lecture online. The actual interactive teaching was carried out in tutorial groups of 6-8 people and that would work as well on zoom or socially distanced. The university still need to employ the lecturer and the tutors. Appreciate it is very different for courses that need lab time etc. For a number of subjects, however, the method of teaching for what is only likely to be the first year should have little bearing on the direct quality of the education being given. The university is only responsible for the education element, the fact that students expect a social element as well is not the fault of the university. 

OK, a bit harsh I know but I would actually be intrigued to see how this panned out as a social experiment. Would you see a significant improvement in university grades if the year was conducted in lockdown conditions with no social element possible.


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## howbow88 (Aug 18, 2020)

I get all that. I mean it purely from a student's point of view - you pay the same amount of money, but end up with absolutely none of the fun and just the 'end product' of a degree. 

If I were 18 right now and wanted to go to uni, I would absolutely try and put it off until 'normality' returns.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Jess Phillips is now suggesting that next year’s students should be graded by their teachers.
		
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It might not be a bad solution, or at the very least include more elements of coursework/teacher assessment.  Those going into the final year of GCSEs or A Levels have already lost at the very least, a term of valuable teaching, and there is not much time to catch up. It is by no means certain that schools will be kept open though the next academic year depending on what happens with the virus, so you may well get to a stage where when exams come around there will be a vast difference in terms of how much time the pupils have had to cover the curriculum.

So for next year I'd much rather see a pupils grade being given partly on exams if the majority of pupils have had a fair chance to pass them in terms of having being taught all the curriculum, but definitely include an element of teacher assessment. They should be graded on their ability, not on how much of the curriculum they have managed to be taught through no fault of their own. And the point is that we now have time to plan for that, instead of repeating the last minute debacle we have seen this year.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



*I'm still puzzled that it seems to be simply accepted that teachers will over estimate student grades. Not once have I heard any criticism of that - simply that it's fact. Surely they're professional people who should be accurate and trustworthy when it comes to assessing their students.*

As for unreal expectations. The numbers of students requiring special measures for exams - extra time, supervised rest breaks, lap tops etc is surely only adding to that. When they hit the real world employers aren't going to accept it takes them 25% longer to do the same job, or that they need 5 minutes rest every half an hour.

Not really coronavirus as such but this current debacle shines a light on a system which for me is setting many up for failure.

Government's handling has been shocking (before my resident stalker feels the need to argue with me)...all the tools seem far too blunt and can't understand why there hasn't been a more student-based rather than school-based system. After all their papers would have all been individually marked.
		
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Think of it like how the vast majority of experienced golfers over estimate how far their 7 iron will go.  The assessments in the vast majority of cases will be fair in that pupil x on a good day would have got a B or whatever, but they will always make an assumption that the student will have a good day in the exam hall. Human nature means doing anything else is not realistic.  Much like I always think my 7 iron will always go 160 yards.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2020)

Funny that a bunch of golfers who say 'my handicap is X' when their average score does not justify it, and I hit my 7 iron 150 yards when it usually goes 140 can't see how teachers might over-rate their pupils performance. 

Me included.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 18, 2020)

Heard a student on the radio today. She was given 3 D's but now her teacher's grades give her 2 B's and a C. "I'm happy as my chances of getting unto a university after my gap year are improved."

Made me wonder about how fair that will be this time next year...ditto those returning from a gap year with last year's grades.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think of it like how the vast majority of experienced golfers over estimate how far their 7 iron will go.  The assessments in the vast majority of cases will be fair in that pupil x on a good day would have got a B or whatever, but they will always make an assumption that the student will have a good day in the exam hall. Human nature means doing anything else is not realistic.  Much like I always think my 7 iron will always go 160 yards.
		
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Ethan said:



			Funny that a bunch of golfers who say 'my handicap is X' when their average score does not justify it, and I hit my 7 iron 150 yards when it usually goes 140 can't see how teachers might over-rate their pupils performance.

Me included.
		
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I guess it's just me then - don't do either in terms of handicap or distance hit...maybe that's a male/female thing


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## GB72 (Aug 18, 2020)

The estimated grades thing does concern me somewhat. Yes teachers will give a reasonable assessment of what is possible to achieve but how much of that is based on pure, analytical fact based on grades achieved to date and how much is aspiration if they really knuckle down and work to their potential. Were the estimated grades assessed before or after it was known that exams would not be sat?

Also, to add a further golfing analogy, so far teachers have seen the pupils perform in a number of friendly rounds with mates and a couple of monthly stableford rounds. Those final exams are ramped up in pressure to the level of playing the back 9 of the club championships with a decent card in hand. You can award the grades as high or as low as you like but, and I am being honest here, if I am sat in an employment situation with 2 candidates, i am picking the one that actually sat those final exams under that pressure and that will be a problem for this year of A level students.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I guess it's just me then - don't do either in terms of handicap or distance hit...maybe that's a male/female thing 

Click to expand...

To be fair, every handicap is an overestimate of typical performance since it is pivoted at around the 75th percentile.


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## drdel (Aug 18, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The estimated grades thing does concern me somewhat. Yes teachers will give a reasonable assessment of what is possible to achieve but how much of that is based on pure, analytical fact based on grades achieved to date and how much is aspiration if they really knuckle down and work to their potential. Were the estimated grades assessed before or after it was known that exams would not be sat?

Also, to add a further golfing analogy, so far teachers have seen the pupils perform in a number of friendly rounds with mates and a couple of monthly stableford rounds. Those final exams are ramped up in pressure to the level of playing the back 9 of the club championships with a decent card in hand. You can award the grades as high or as low as you like but, and I am being honest here, if I am sat in an employment situation with 2 candidates, i am picking the one that actually sat those final exams under that pressure and that will be a problem for this year of A level students.
		
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.
I know it might be a few decades ago but I suspect many of you will recall your school days and the teachers who had their 'pet' pupils. Blind marked nationally set exams and coursework has to be the honest way forwards. I was too interested in sports and stuff so wasn't ever one of the 'favoured' kids but that motivated me to prove them wrong and that encouraged me in a science field through Uni. the real world and a doctorate. 20 years in Industry and  20+ years as a Uni. Head of department I'm afraid my soap-box looms  - the UK needs to wake up to the real world of competition rather than the artificial media/film portrayed celebrity leftist entitlement culture!

In UK Universities there are a plethora of 'easy' courses today like media studies and performing arts etc where well paid stable careers are like hens teeth, as SILH's various posts have demonstrated. Students study TV Soaps at Maters level - honestly .

We desperately need young UK kids to get to grip with the sciences to help the planet and people, in areas of biology, chemistry, computing, medicines, engineering, etc. The so-called 'vocational' studies should be taught at colleges and not clutter up Universities with a load of timewasters. The sciences may be harder but then its the harsh reality of work that needs to be the focus; unskilled jobs are being absorbed by automation, AI and robotics.

In my humble opinion, of course


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## GB72 (Aug 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			.
I know it might be a few decades ago but I suspect many of you will recall your school days and the teachers who had their 'pet' pupils. Blind marked nationally set exams and coursework has to be the honest way forwards. I was too interested in sports and stuff so wasn't ever one of the 'favoured' kids but that motivated me to prove them wrong and that encouraged me in a science field through Uni. the real world and a doctorate. 20 years in Industry and  20+ years as a Uni. Head of department I'm afraid my soap-box looms  - the UK needs to wake up to the real world of competition rather than the artificial media/film portrayed celebrity leftist entitlement culture!

In UK Universities there are a plethora of 'easy' courses today like media studies and performing arts etc where well paid stable careers are like hens teeth, as SILH's various posts have demonstrated. Students study TV Soaps at Maters level - honestly .

We desperately need young UK kids to get to grip with the sciences to help the planet and people, in areas of biology, chemistry, computing, medicines, engineering, etc. The so-called 'vocational' studies should be taught at colleges and not clutter up Universities with a load of timewasters. The sciences may be harder but then its the harsh reality of work that needs to be the focus; unskilled jobs are being absorbed by automation, AI and robotics.

In my humble opinion, of course
		
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What I did see at school were 2 groups of people, there were those who excelled in the classroom (not much coursework in my day) but crumbled when it came to exams and also those who just could not get on with the day to day of school work but give them a subject and a few weeks notice and they could get through pretty much any exam (I was more of the latter). That is what estimated grades cannot take into account. The inability of one to handle the pressure of the exam room will remain hidden until later in life whereas the the ability of the other to produce a last minute spurt to achieve a goal will not be taken into account. There is no fair way of addressing this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 18, 2020)

I'd have been a bit cheesed off if my O-Level French prelims and teacher assessment determined my O-Level.  I couldn't be bothered learning irregular verbs and so was total rubbish in ongoing tests; and flunked my prelim.  Teacher reckoned I'd do well to get a D.  But I wasn't a D sort of pupil so I learned the irregulars and got an A.  Was actually quite important back then as Scottish Unis liked their intake to have a good O-level in a foreign language (English didn't count as one  )


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			.
I know it might be a few decades ago but I suspect many of you will recall your school days and the teachers who had their 'pet' pupils. Blind marked nationally set exams and coursework has to be the honest way forwards. I was too interested in sports and stuff so wasn't ever one of the 'favoured' kids but that motivated me to prove them wrong and that encouraged me in a science field through Uni. the real world and a doctorate. 20 years in Industry and  20+ years as a Uni. Head of department I'm afraid my soap-box looms  - the UK needs to wake up to the real world of competition rather than the artificial media/film portrayed celebrity leftist entitlement culture!

In UK Universities there are a plethora of 'easy' courses today like media studies and performing arts etc where well paid stable careers are like hens teeth, as SILH's various posts have demonstrated. Students study TV Soaps at Maters level - honestly .

We desperately need young UK kids to get to grip with the sciences to help the planet and people, in areas of biology, chemistry, computing, medicines, engineering, etc. The so-called 'vocational' studies should be taught at colleges and not clutter up Universities with a load of timewasters. The sciences may be harder but then its the harsh reality of work that needs to be the focus; unskilled jobs are being absorbed by automation, AI and robotics.

In my humble opinion, of course
		
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Interesting post. Some I agree with and some I strongly disagree with. 

Vocational courses are done by timewasters. Interesting. I am sure some people in vocational careers will be along shortly to discuss that. 

The UK needs to waken up to competition. I agree, but then the choice to leave the powerful EU block to become an academic also-ran is an odd choice. The flight of academics and research money has long since started, and will only continue. 

And what is this leftist entitlement culture - the NHS, welfare state? Dunno if you had noticed but Johnson is the most socialist PM for a generation.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 18, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The estimated grades thing does concern me somewhat. Yes teachers will give a reasonable assessment of what is possible to achieve but how much of that is based on pure, analytical fact based on grades achieved to date and how much is aspiration if they really knuckle down and work to their potential. *Were the estimated grades assessed before or after it was known that exams would not be sat?*

Also, to add a further golfing analogy, so far teachers have seen the pupils perform in a number of friendly rounds with mates and a couple of monthly stableford rounds. Those final exams are ramped up in pressure to the level of playing the back 9 of the club championships with a decent card in hand. You can award the grades as high or as low as you like but, and I am being honest here, if I am sat in an employment situation with 2 candidates, i* am picking the one that actually sat those final exams under that pressure and that will be a problem for this year of A level students*.
		
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Kids are are given estimated GCSE grades from the moment they start primary school nowadays.  It is a very thorough process, if understandably not completely standardised as it is all based on human interpretation.  One could argue that seeing someone perform day in day out is actually more relevant to what they will do in most (but not all) jobs than an artificial one off knowledge recall exam situation. I'm sure you'll be aware through interviewing people that there are many other factors needed than just exam grades.

Also there's a whole debate over if pupils are being taught the skills and abilities they will need in the future world of work where some studies say future workers will go through on average about 4 different careers. The world of work has changed and that change will only accelerate in the current climate.  The way kids are taught and what they are taught has not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Interesting post. Some I agree with and some I strongly disagree with.

Vocational courses are done by timewasters. Interesting. I am sure some people in vocational careers will be along shortly to discuss that.

The UK needs to waken up to competition. I agree, but then the choice to leave the powerful EU block to become an academic also-ran is an odd choice. The flight of academics and research money has long since started, and will only continue.

*And what is this leftist entitlement culture* - the NHS, welfare state? Dunno if you had noticed but Johnson is the most socialist PM for a generation.
		
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Indeed - what is it - because I see a culture of entitlement that spans political leaning; social background and socio-economic groupi...

The actual entitlement might well be different - but the entitlement is there.  See for example the entitlement many feel about their tax - that they are entitled to minimise what they pay in tax, and entitled to keep as much of their income as possible.  Indeed.  And many would add - because they are entitled to a certain standard of living.  We all have feelings of entitlement...


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 18, 2020)

GB72 said:



			What I did see at school were 2 groups of people, there were those who excelled in the classroom (not much coursework in my day) but crumbled when it came to exams and also those who just could not get on with the day to day of school work but give them a subject and a few weeks notice and they could get through pretty much any exam (I was more of the latter). *That is what estimated grades cannot take into account*. The inability of one to handle the pressure of the exam room will remain hidden until later in life whereas the the ability of the other to produce a last minute spurt to achieve a goal will not be taken into account. There is no fair way of addressing this.
		
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Literally no one (unions, Labour, teachers, universities etc) were calling for just estimated grades to be used 2 weeks ago.  Everyone knew it is/was an imperfect solution with significant challenges. But at the same time it was also clear that using the algorithms would lead to situations where kids would be treated 'unfairly' due to the use of big data algorithms using large scale past performance data. That is fine if used to look at the whole as one (hence all the initial guff about the grades staying the same year on year) but falls down when dealing with individuals who are unfairly treated. And without getting too political (god forbid ) it is a sign of how badly this situation has been managed where estimated grades suddenly becomes consensus as the only way to do it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - what is it - because I see a culture of entitlement that spans political leaning; social background and socio-economic groupi...

The actual entitlement might well be different - but the entitlement is there.  See for example the entitlement many feel about their tax - that they are entitled to minimise what they pay in tax, and entitled to keep as much of their income as possible.  Indeed.  And many would add - because they are entitled to a certain standard of living.  We all have feelings of entitlement...
		
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That feeling has been coming in over the last 40+ years, us and our children being in the middle of it and quite happy to blame current and future generations for the mess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That feeling has been coming in over the last 40+ years, us and our children being in the middle of it and quite happy to blame current and future generations for the mess.
		
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My immediate thought was that 40yrs is looking way too far back in time surely - into my parents days and they didn't have feelings of entitlement that I noticed - then I realised your 40yrs takes us from 1980 to the present day...so yes indeed.  A lot has changed over these 40yrs.


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## Backache (Aug 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			.


We desperately need young UK kids to get to grip with the sciences to help the planet and people, in areas of biology, chemistry, computing, medicines, engineering, etc. The so-called 'vocational' studies should be taught at colleges and not clutter up Universities with a load of timewasters. The sciences may be harder but then its the harsh reality of work that needs to be the focus; unskilled jobs are being absorbed by automation, AI and robotics.
		
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Last time I looked engineering and medicine were considered vocational courses.
And I don't see why AI can't push pills.
Is there any evidence that learning to push pills is harder than journalism?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 19, 2020)

Excellent work by the T&T team.

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/20...e-99-7/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Excellent work by the T&T team.

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/20...e-99-7/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Click to expand...

All the effective Test and Trace work in England has also been done by established PHE teams rather than Dido's hideously expensive and ineffective call centres. We can now look forward to her doing her magic on those PHE teams and destroying that work too.


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 19, 2020)

Junior Shark received her A-Level grades which were exactly in line with projections and what she was expecting.  She had an unconditional offer in place from Nottingham Trent University.
But she has told me that the only ones bitching and complaining about the grades they got from her 6th form college are the ones who had done sod all work, dossed through their mocks and had false impressions of what they would get.   This of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting.


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Junior Shark received her A-Level grades which were exactly in line with projections and what she was expecting.  She had an unconditional offer in place from Nottingham Trent University.
But she has told me that the only ones bitching and complaining about the grades they got from her 6th form college are the ones who had done sod all work, dossed through their mocks and had false impressions of what they would get.   This of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting.
		
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That is very unfair to the swathe of students across the country. It should be obvious that pinning the results of this years exams to previous performance in the school would cause a range of unfair results, and that effectively exempting those schools with small class sizes or less popular subjects from the same algorithm would lead to anomalies. BBC More or Less covered the matter nicely this week.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Junior Shark received her A-Level grades which were exactly in line with projections and what she was expecting.  She had an unconditional offer in place from Nottingham Trent University.
But she has told me that the only ones bitching and complaining about the grades they got from her 6th form college are the ones who had done sod all work, dossed through their mocks and had false impressions of what they would get.   This of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting.
		
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That's complete and utter bull rubbish and your daughter is a lucky one

Plenty get marked down unfairly 

Just because it didn't happen to your daughter doesn't mean it didn't happen to someone who did work hard


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 19, 2020)

Try and read the post before taking your politically-biased opinions.     As I stated  "this of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting"


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Junior Shark received her A-Level grades which were exactly in line with projections and what she was expecting.  She had an unconditional offer in place from Nottingham Trent University.
But she has told me that the only ones bitching and complaining about the grades they got from her 6th form college are the ones who had done sod all work, dossed through their mocks and had false impressions of what they would get.   This of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting.
		
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It might be easier to be relaxed about the grades and the whole process if you have an unconditional offer. And there could be two types of people bitching, those that are bitching as their projected grades from their teachers were not what they expected, in which case they probably had an over inflated opinion of their abilities.  And those bitching that they got given much lower grades from their teacher assessments mostly due to the unfairness inherent in the algorithms used.  And in the latter case I expect most right thinking people would have a lot of sympathy. In the former may be less so.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It might be easier to be relaxed about the grades and the whole process if you have an unconditional offer. And there could be two types of people bitching, those that are bitching as their projected grades from their teachers were not what they expected, in which case they probably had an over inflated opinion of their abilities.  And those bitching that they got given much lower grades from their teacher assessments mostly due to the unfairness inherent in the algorithms used.  And in the latter case I expect most right thinking people would have a lot of sympathy. In the former may be less so.
		
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I think you have summed it up perfectly. My daughter could list people in both camps that she knows. She is angry on behalf of the latter, shrugs her shoulders regarding the former.


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Try and read the post before taking your politically-biased opinions.     As I stated  "this of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting"
		
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Read it. Still a gross, unfair and almost certainly false assertion. Why are opinions which differ from you or your daughter 'politically-biased'. Sounds like you are the one with the french field potato on your shoulder. Try to educate yourself on the methods used for this algorithm and get back to us with your analysis.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



*I think you have summed it up perfectly*. My daughter could list people in both camps that she knows. She is angry on behalf of the latter, shrugs her shoulders regarding the former.
		
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Had to happen sometime, even a blind hen pecks some corn eventually


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2020)

Sometimes you love some of our electorate.  Just heard caller phone in to Eddie Mair on LBC

Eddie: So John, tell me what you think of Boris Johnson and the government
John: Brilliant, fabulous they did great with furlough, grants - kept me afloat - helped me a lot.
Eddie: What about any things they've done wrong, that they don't listen - the A levels for instance
John: Well it was difficult - maybe they should not have marked down students who got A*s
Eddie: What about Dominic Cummings?
John: Erm - I haven't heard about him
Eddie: Thanks John - get back to me...


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			All the effective Test and Trace work in England has also been done by established PHE teams rather than Dido's hideously expensive and ineffective call centres. We can now look forward to her doing her magic on those PHE teams and destroying that work too.
		
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Even Toby Young agrees with you on that one. And it's a frightening day when you find yourself nodding along with anything he posts. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295745557617680387


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## pauljames87 (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Try and read the post before taking your politically-biased opinions.     As I stated  "this of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting"
		
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Read it. Just sounds smug and looking down at others.... Standard


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Even Toby Young agrees with you on that one. And it's a frightening day when you find yourself nodding along with anything he posts. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295745557617680387

Click to expand...

I don't agree with Toby on much, but this is such an egregious and shameless act that even reasonable and unreasonable people (I will leave you to decide which of us is which) can agree.


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 19, 2020)

Our usual two trolls are in full flow today.  My daughter had simply made a comment about the only A-level complaints at her college coming from students who had no business expecting anything better.  She knew that was not indicative of the national position and I posted the same.   But that was far too basic for a couple of people to understand.  

Time to employ the ignore function on this forum for the first time.   I can only imagine how unpopular these two are at their own clubs.   Sad really.


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Our usual two trolls are in full flow today.  My daughter had simply made a comment about the only A-level complaints at her college coming from students who had no business expecting anything better.  She knew that was not indicative of the national position and I posted the same.   But that was far too basic for a couple of people to understand.

Time to employ the ignore function on this forum for the first time.   I can only imagine how unpopular these two are at their own clubs.   Sad really.
		
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How would your daughter know? Maybe she jumped to unreasonable conclusions and gross generalisations based on her prejudices and her lack of understanding how the algorithm worked. Maybe that unpleasant trait is hereditary.

So if you are talking about me, please do hit ignore. Bye bye. You chose your username wisely, at least the first part.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Junior Shark received her A-Level grades which were exactly in line with projections and what she was expecting.  She had an unconditional offer in place from Nottingham Trent University.
But she has told me that the only ones bitching and complaining about the grades they got from her 6th form college are the ones who had done sod all work, dossed through their mocks and had false impressions of what they would get.   This of course is not the full picture across the country but very clear from where she was sitting.
		
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Congrats to your daughter!
But that post simply demonstrates that you don't understand the 'problem'!


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Our usual two trolls are in full flow today.  My daughter had simply made a comment about the only A-level complaints at her college coming from students who had no business expecting anything better.  She knew that was not indicative of the national position and I posted the same.   But that was far too basic for a couple of people to understand.

Time to employ the ignore function on this forum for the first time.   *I can only imagine how unpopular these two are at their own clubs.*   Sad really.
		
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I'm not a member of any golf club.  Ha. Jokes on you.......


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm not a member of any golf club.  Ha. Jokes on you.......
		
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Pathetic Shark said:



			...I can only imagine how unpopular these two are at their own clubs.   Sad really.
		
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And I can vouch for how wrong PS was, in this regard, re Ethan!


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 19, 2020)

Guys let’s wind our respective necks in please, Shark & Ethan particularly

There’s ways to disagree with people without insults and personal remarks,
Please adopt them 

Thank you


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys let’s wind our respective necks in please, Shark & Ethan particularly

There’s ways to disagree with people without insults and personal remarks,
Please adopt them

Thank you
		
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Anyone calling me a troll for a perfectly reasonable response to a wildly pejorative and self-evidently false generalisation such as his post above will receive a robust response. no bad language was used, whoever justified.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Anyone calling me a troll for a perfectly reasonable response to a wildly pejorative and self-evidently false generalisation such as his post above will receive a robust response. no bad language was used, whoever justified.
		
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“”You chose your username wisely, at least the first part.””

It’s little digs like this you need to stop, it’s not big and it’s not clever.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 19, 2020)

You can’t judge someone’s results on mock exams that not many will care what result they’ll get or how they are in a classroom environment. Otherwise why have final exams at all?
Unfair. 
Schools should of done more, plenty of schools have been empty and social distancing wouldn’t of been difficult for these to take place or still can still take place. The first few months at uni are a jolly anyway full of alcohol and visits to the clap clinic.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			...
Schools should *of* done more, plenty of schools have been empty and social distancing wouldn’t *of* been difficult...
		
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Like teaching proper English!


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## pauljames87 (Aug 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			You can’t judge someone’s results on mock exams that not many will care what result they’ll get or how they are in a classroom environment. Otherwise why have final exams at all?
Unfair. 
Schools should of done more, plenty of schools have been empty and social distancing wouldn’t of been difficult for these to take place or still can still take place. The first few months at uni are a jolly anyway full of alcohol and visits to the clap clinic.
		
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This is where the school you go to really plays a part

My old school could use mocks because Mock week is treated like proper exams. 

Other schools will do them in different ways 

It's a very unfair process 

Teachers view the only way

However as others have said a levels GCSE etc all meaningless in long run.. when they are replaced by the next qualification it will all be forgotten


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			“”You chose your username wisely, at least the first part.””

It’s little digs like this you need to stop, it’s not big and it’s not clever.
		
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Not big, fair enough.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 19, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Like teaching proper English!
		
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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Like teaching proper English!
		
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Oh dear, that is the grammatical equivalent of fingernails on a blackboard.


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## drdel (Aug 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			This is where the school you go to really plays a part

My old school could use mocks because Mock week is treated like proper exams.

Other schools will do them in different ways

It's a very unfair process

Teachers view the only way

However as others have said a levels GCSE etc all meaningless in long run.. when they are replaced by the next qualification it will all be forgotten
		
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'A' Levels are like all qualifications: a stepping stone to the next rung up. They can only be forgotten once you have cleared the hurdle. 

Using a Teacher's view is far too subjective. Some teachers take their job seriously and would take time to consider what grade to allocate. However a considerable number are rubbish and will rush through the list to get it off their desk.


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 19, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Like teaching proper English!
		
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If that’s the only fault you could find I’m happy. My attendance was 58% in the crucial years and most of that was just turning in for register and then leaving. 

Edit; to be frank it’s a dialect issue due to being from Yorkshire as that’s how I talk. We’ll sort of I don’t pronounce the ‘f’.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			'A' Levels are like all qualifications: a stepping stone to the next rung up. They can only be forgotten once you have cleared the hurdle. 

Using a Teacher's view is far too subjective. Some teachers take their job seriously and would take time to consider what grade to allocate. However a considerable number are rubbish and will rush through the list to get it off their desk.
		
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I have to admit I've been very fortunate in my up bringing that I have only had dedicated hard working teachers 

Any failings are fully on the students in their classes as they give every student their all


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			If that’s the only fault you could find I’m happy. My attendance was 58% in the crucial years and most of that was just turning in for register and then leaving. 

Edit; to be frank it’s a dialect issue due to being from Yorkshire as that’s how I talk. We’ll sort of I don’t pronounce the ‘f’.
		
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Still no excuse - though perhaps explained by your 58% attendance! Dialects/regional accents excuse spoken abberations, not written ones! There's a totally valid alternative/abbreviation - 've!


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## Billysboots (Aug 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			Using a Teacher's view is far too subjective. Some teachers take their job seriously and would take time to consider what grade to allocate. However a considerable number are rubbish and will rush through the list to get it off their desk.
		
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I may have said here or elsewhere, but my experience of predicted grades is less than positive. 

Throughout my lad’s time at high school his teachers across the board predicted grades above what we knew he was capable of. He has never been a straight “A” student but that was what they were telling us. He passed the lot, but did not get anywhere close to the predictions. Many of his peer group were the same.


So, whilst predicted grades are perhaps fairer than an algorithm, they are by no means an accurate reflection of what students are likely to achieve in an exam either. All a bit of a mess.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			...*Some* teachers take their job seriously and would take time to consider what grade to allocate. However a considerable number are rubbish and will rush through the list to get it off their desk.
		
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I'd suggest that 'The vast majority' would be a more appropriate description! After all, that's their primary task!
Certainly, some, are forced to rush both their task of teaching pupils and assigning grades by the amount of petty bureaucracy foisted upon them by 'the system'! As the husband of a teacher and Deputy Head, I've certainly seen plenty of that!
Unless you can put some actual stats (your field of expertise I believe) on your numbers though, I'd suggest you really don't know what you are posting about!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2020)

BTec results day...shambles - what shambles?

Just as well we have a government of competents in charge to sort it all out.  Sorry?...what?...they have been in charge?...for how long?


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## patricks148 (Aug 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Even Toby Young agrees with you on that one. And it's a frightening day when you find yourself nodding along with anything he posts. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295745557617680387

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could be a job for Boris's Corruption champion to look into


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## Old Skier (Aug 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTec results day...shambles - what shambles?

Just as well we have a government of competents in charge to sort it all out.  Sorry?...what?...they have been in charge?...for how long?
		
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Head of 6th form colleges said it was the right decision but you obviously know better.
Shame the story of GCSEs became a non story.


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## Beezerk (Aug 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTec results day...shambles - what shambles?

Just as well we have a government of competents in charge to sort it all out.  Sorry?...what?...they have been in charge?...for how long?
		
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Weird, I was under the impression it was the Pearson exam board who have pulled the results.

Awaits being tagged as a Tory sympathiser 🥱😴


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 20, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Weird, I was under the impression it was the Pearson exam board who have pulled the results.
		
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That is exactly how it is being reported this morning. The exam board, just the one, want longer to go through the results. GCSE results coming out as normal.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 20, 2020)

My understanding is the change in GCSE and A Level grading (not being downgraded) has meant that the vocational qualifications need to be sure they are doing the equivalent so as to not disadvantage their students.

All very last minute which isn't ideal but rather they did that than not.


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## Old Skier (Aug 20, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			My understanding is the change in GCSE and A Level grading (not being downgraded) has meant that the vocational qualifications need to be sure they are doing the equivalent so as to not disadvantage their students.

All very last minute which isn't ideal but rather they did that than not.
		
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Dont bust SILH bubble. The whole BTEC fiasco occurred as reported and ignored by SILH was due to the over generous grades being given by teachers in the A and GCSEs as reported by many commentators in the media.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Dont bust SILH bubble. The whole BTEC fiasco occurred as reported and ignored by SILH was due to the over generous grades being given by teachers in the A and GCSEs as reported by many commentators in the media.
		
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You’re right about silh, but the Pearson BTEC statement says the following:

“Because BTEC results are largely based on continuous teacher-assessed projects and assignments, grade outcomes have been generally consistent with teacher and learner expectations. However, we have become concerned about unfairness, including consistency with the approaches now being used for GCSE and A Levels.

This means we will now be removing Pearson calculated grades and allowing higher outcomes for the externally examined units so they are in line with those assessed by teachers. *We believe this is now a more trusted source of evidence of learner attainment*.”

Isn’t the bit I’ve highlighted supporting the teachers rather than accussing them of being over generous?


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## Ethan (Aug 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			could be a job for Boris's Corruption champion to look into

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Certain to be someone of unimpeachable integrity and independence.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re right about silh, but the Pearson BTEC statement says the following:

“Because BTEC results are largely based on continuous teacher-assessed projects and assignments, grade outcomes have been generally consistent with teacher and learner expectations. However, we have become concerned about unfairness, including consistency with the approaches now being used for GCSE and A Levels.

This means we will now be removing Pearson calculated grades and allowing higher outcomes for the externally examined units so they are in line with those assessed by teachers. *We believe this is now a more trusted source of evidence of learner attainment*.”

Isn’t the bit I’ve highlighted supporting the teachers rather than accussing them of being over generous?
		
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We will only know the answer to this when the GCSE and A level grades are released in full and compared to previous years. The results are going to be higher than any other year, the only question is by how much? If they are totally out of sync with past years, how much more will trigger that feeling I don't know, then the support for teachers may reduce. 

Pearson have to up their grading otherwise B-Tec students will miss out compared to the GCSE students.

GCSE are up across the board around 9% apparently, just seen that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Weird, I was under the impression it was the Pearson exam board who have pulled the results.

Awaits being tagged as a Tory sympathiser 🥱😴
		
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You are quite right - just as well we have the government we have to sort it all out


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Dont bust SILH bubble. The whole BTEC fiasco occurred as reported and ignored by SILH was due to the over generous grades being given by teachers in the A and GCSEs as reported by many commentators in the media.
		
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...indeed - just as well that neither the education secretary nor the schools minister have oversight responsibilities for any of the examination boards or the schools and so are well positioned to take independent but firm and decisive action.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We will only know the answer to this when the GCSE and A level grades are released in full and compared to previous years. The results are going to be higher than any other year, the only question is by how much? If they are totally out of sync with past years, how much more will trigger that feeling I don't know, then the support for teachers may reduce.

Pearson have to up their grading otherwise B-Tec students will miss out compared to the GCSE students.

GCSE are up across the board around 9% apparently, just seen that.
		
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Totally agree, just wonder why some are prepared straight away to “bash” teachers.

Lot’s of things that have happened this year are down to the pandemic, strange how it’s only used by some when it suits their argument.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, just wonder why some are prepared straight away to “bash” teachers.

Lot’s of things that have happened this year are down to the pandemic, strange how it’s only used by some when it suits their argument.
		
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I suspect what happened is that the teachers unions went a bit holier than thou in their defence of teachers and that got peoples backs up. Instead of a rational discussion you then get swinging extremes. The reality is that teachers have over estimated but the correction was an unfair one. This is the best of a bad job. Give out the marks, move on to next year.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect what happened is that the teachers unions went a bit holier than thou in their defence of teachers and that got peoples backs up. Instead of a rational discussion you then get swinging extremes. The reality is that teachers have over estimated but the correction was an unfair one. This is the best of a bad job. Give out the marks, move on to next year.
		
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Bit like taking your driving test with your Mum 😉


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## patricks148 (Aug 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Certain to be someone of unimpeachable integrity and independence.
		
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of course, its not like it will be her husband or anything


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit like taking your driving test with your Mum 😉
		
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It is human nature, particularly as they and schools get judged by results so much now. Equally, a child who has been a solid C throughout but might on their best day ever get a B. How many will have estimated B and how many went C? To think this didn't happen is naive, to think every student got over marked is just as wrong. As I said, best of a bad job.


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## Beezerk (Aug 20, 2020)

I heard a teacher on the radio last week who made a valid point re marking some students up. Let's say he has 20 A mark students, maybe a handful will do badly in the exam for a variety of reasons, he can't predict which ones will fall short so he has to predict they all get A's as that is what their course work says they will achieve.

Another point slightly getting on my tats, it's isn't teachers predictions as such, it is the centre of learning predictions,they take the teachers comments and adjust as they see fit. It may go through two or three stages from teacher giving predictions to the centre of learning giving their final results.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect what happened is that the teachers unions went a bit holier than thou in their defence of teachers and that got peoples backs up. Instead of a rational discussion you then get swinging extremes. The reality is that teachers have over estimated but the correction was an unfair one. This is the best of a bad job. Give out the marks, move on to next year.
		
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I’d expect any Union to support their members, but let’s be honest, this situation wasn’t created by the teachers, 99% of those teachers are the same ones who have been in the schools for years and nobody really cared about whether they over graded or under graded unless it affected their child.

This year the authorities have had to make drastic decisions and have gotten some wrong. Rather than hold their hands up and have the discussion (you mention) months ago we’ve had uturns and delays and then at times they’ve looked to shift the blame.

If you push people in any job and question their integrity, they are going to come out swinging.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 20, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I may have said here or elsewhere, but my experience of predicted grades is less than positive.

Throughout my lad’s time at high school his teachers across the board predicted grades above what we knew he was capable of. He has never been a straight “A” student but that was what they were telling us. He passed the lot, but did not get anywhere close to the predictions. Many of his peer group were the same.


So, whilst predicted grades are perhaps fairer than an algorithm, they are by no means an accurate reflection of what students are likely to achieve in an exam either. All a bit of a mess.
		
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I 100% agree, my son is bright (but a touch lazy) throughout his secondary schooling teachers would say “he’s currently at about 6/7 but if he pushes himself he can get 7/8/9s”
Results out today, he got 7/8s on every subject. Now don’t get me wrong, we are delighted for him, and have said he now has to “prove” them results with his A levels, but obviously if exams had been sat he would have excelled in some subjects, and been disappointed with others. Every year this is what happens. I don’t have an answer on how they could have done it fairer but relying on teachers is not ideal.... In 1982 I got a CSE grade 2 in Art. When we walked around the Art dept looking at coursework 2 pieces on my table were not mine! 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Dont bust SILH bubble. The whole BTEC fiasco occurred as reported and ignored by SILH was due to the over generous grades being given by teachers in the A and GCSEs as reported by many commentators in the media.
		
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Pity Williamson was forewarned.  Bit strange then that he seemed 'surprised' when he 'discovered' the scale of the problem after the results were released, 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gavin-williamson-was-warned-about-risk-of-exam-fiasco-w00fhr0tk


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 20, 2020)

Part of the blame for the situation schools are now in is the fact successive governments have changed so much, tests at earlier age, OFSTED, curriculum changes etc etc.

Add to that societies expectations of wanting “little jonny” to go to uni rather than get a trade etc and we’ve become a results based Country and imo, in the wrong areas.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, j*ust wonder why some are prepared straight away to “bash” teachers.*

Lot’s of things that have happened this year are down to the pandemic, strange how it’s only used by some when it suits their argument.
		
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It's kind of a right wing narrative that flows all the way from the government down. Not 100% sure why, may be because it's difficult to make a a profit out of education? Who knows.

From my experience of teachers the vast majority have been working extremely hard in very challenging circumstances in an environment of constantly reducing funding.  It would be great if schools could suddenly switch to top class on line learning at the drop of a hat.  But the truth is the vast majority of school are constantly working at their limits of efficiency under all the targets they have to hit and pressures to get the kids to certain grades. So they simply did not have the capacity to turn into a provider of on line learning straight away. May be if schools were better funded they could have done this, but in terms of funding of public services you reap what you sow, especially under unprecedented circumstances.

And yes some teachers will be useless, but that is the same for all professions. And the unions at times do not help themselves. But the vast majority care deeply for the pupils and their futures.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We will only know the answer to this when the GCSE and A level grades are released in full and compared to previous years. The results are going to be higher than any other year, the only question is by how much? If they are totally out of sync with past years, how much more will trigger that feeling I don't know, then the support for teachers may reduce.

Pearson have to up their grading otherwise B-Tec students will miss out compared to the GCSE students.

*GCSE are up across the board around 9% apparently, just seen that*.
		
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Not sure it will make up for the percentage drop in employment opportunities and all the rest of the **** we seem to be bequeathing to the next generation though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Part of the blame for the situation schools are now in is the fact successive governments have changed so much, tests at earlier age, OFSTED, curriculum changes etc etc.

Add to that societies expectations of wanting “little jonny” to go to uni rather than get a trade etc and we’ve become a results based Country and imo, in the wrong areas.
		
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Both of my parents were teachers. They used to groan every time the Education Sec got changed as each one wanted to leave their mark. Instead of allowing gentle evolution and time for new policies to settle in it would be upheaval every few years. Listen each time, it happens across Ministries but Education in particular, and you will hear the phrase 'radical overhaul of .............'

Also agree with your last point. That is starting to change with the expansion of apprenticeships. Hopefully Covid will not stall this too greatly although it is bound to have some impact.


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## Ethan (Aug 20, 2020)

Govt just announced that national limits on student numbers for medicine, dentistry, veterinary and teaching. Inevitable, but doesn't create space or attachments for the students and what happens in X years when they graduate? Canada, NZ or Oz?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Govt just announced that national limits on student numbers for medicine, dentistry, veterinary and teaching. Inevitable, but doesn't create space or attachments for the students and what happens in X years when they graduate? Canada, NZ or Oz?
		
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Government announce 'what' for national limits on student numbers for medicine, dentistry, veterinary and teaching?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's kind of a right wing narrative that flows all the way from the government down. Not 100% sure why, may be because it's difficult to make a a profit out of education? Who knows.

From my experience of teachers the vast majority have been working extremely hard in very challenging circumstances in an environment of constantly reducing funding.  It would be great if schools could suddenly switch to top class on line learning at the drop of a hat.  But the truth is the vast majority of school are constantly working at their limits of efficiency under all the targets they have to hit and pressures to get the kids to certain grades. So they simply did not have the capacity to turn into a provider of on line learning straight away. May be if schools were better funded they could have done this, but in terms of funding of public services you reap what you sow, especially under unprecedented circumstances.

And yes some teachers will be useless, but that is the same for all professions. And the unions at times do not help themselves. But the vast majority care deeply for the pupils and their futures.
		
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Surely a lot of the money available is used to pay for their pension funds.


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## Ethan (Aug 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Government announce 'what' for national limits on student numbers for medicine, dentistry, veterinary and teaching?
		
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Oops, that caps on numbers are removed, so Unis can take in more students. This has a few knock on effects, though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

I see the ban on evictions is lifted on Sunday.  That's not good.  Hearing stories of landlords threatening eviction action starting next week unless rent arrears are paid immediately.  And of course many whose work is still on hold or who have lost their jobs have no income to pay what they owe - and there is no scope to pay arrears out of their UC - if that's what they are on - even if they can make up the shortfall between UC contribution to the rent and what they will be paying.

Houseowners who are in the same income situation could be taking a mortgage 'holiday' - money still has to be paid back but at least they might can a sympathetic ear or a rearrangement from the lender.   Many private landlords may not feel they are able to be so accommodating - they may have mortgage payments or arrears to meet themselves.  Risk of surge in homeless.  What to do.  Very worrying time for many. 

Can or should the government do anything - or is it just tough - and a fact of life when you are on the dole.  Meanwhile self-employed can apply for a second grant to keep themselves going...whether they need the money or not.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see the ban on evictions is lifted on Sunday.  That's not good.  Hearing stories of landlords threatening eviction action starting next week unless rent arrears are paid immediately.  And of course many whose work is still on hold or who have lost their jobs have no income to pay what they owe - and there is no scope to pay arrears out of their UC - if that's what they are on - even if they can make up the shortfall between UC contribution to the rent and what they will be paying.

Houseowners who are in the same income situation could be taking a mortgage 'holiday' - money still has to be paid back but at least they might can a sympathetic ear or a rearrangement from the lender.   Many private landlords may not feel they are able to be so accommodating - they may have mortgage payments or arrears to meet themselves.  Risk of surge in homeless.  What to do.  Very worrying time for many.

Can or should the government do anything - or is it just tough - and a fact of life when you are on the dole.  Meanwhile self-employed can apply for a second grant to keep themselves going...whether they need the money or not.
		
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What do you suggest should happen?


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## Old Skier (Aug 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re right about silh, but the Pearson BTEC statement says the following:

“Because BTEC results are largely based on continuous teacher-assessed projects and assignments, grade outcomes have been generally consistent with teacher and learner expectations. However, we have become concerned about unfairness, including consistency with the approaches now being used for GCSE and A Levels.

This means we will now be removing Pearson calculated grades and allowing higher outcomes for the externally examined units so they are in line with those assessed by teachers. *We believe this is now a more trusted source of evidence of learner attainment*.”

Isn’t the bit I’ve highlighted supporting the teachers rather than accussing them of being over generous?
		
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Im not accusing, I’m just posting what was being said on media outlets. If it’s a better way of assessing students and so reliable why to we spend so much on exams and exam bodies.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Im not accusing, I’m just posting what was being said on media outlets. If it’s a better way of assessing students and so reliable why to we spend so much on exams and exam bodies.
		
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Nobody is saying it’s a better way, just the method they’ve chosen after it turning in to a cluster..

So going by the actual Pearson BTEC statement you can probably see the media outlets and commentators are at best misquoting what has been said.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Word on the grapevine this evening is that the eviction ban will be extended.  That would be a very good thing done by the government - recognising the terribly difficult issues associated with having suddenly severely depleted income for months on end if not longer - which for many is just UC - for absolutely no fault of their own - and with nothing to fall back on to pay the arrears built up.  They are not the feckless ones - they are those that need our support and encouragement.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What do you suggest should happen?
		
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Don't ask questions like that. It's all the governments fault and so as soon as we get a labour government we'll all be in the land of milk and honey


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What do you suggest should happen?
		
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What I'd like to happen is it seems what is most likely going to happen.  I'm hoping that that is what everyone would have wanted to happen also.  Those who disagree might find themselves disagreeing with the government action.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't ask questions like that. It's all the governments fault and so as soon as we get a labour government we'll all be in the land of milk and honey
		
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It is within the power of the government to prevent landlords, from Monday, initiating eviction proceedings on those tenants in arrears and who cannot pay.  If the government do not extend the ban then what happens will be as a result of their inaction - because many simply do not have the wherewithal to clear their rent arrears as some landlords seem to be demanding.  The government has a choice.  The tenants don't.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What I'd like to happen is it seems what is most likely going to happen.  I'm hoping that that is what everyone would have wanted to happen also.  Those who disagree might find themselves disagreeing with the government action.
		
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It's not the govs fault on this one but what id like to see happen is arrears caused by covid 19 covered by the gov. We have already supported people with furlough and grants so it wouldn't even make a dent in the debt really.

Those who own a house were offered payment holidays by the banks

Furlough people got wages 

Those who have lost out but now can get on again would be nice to see them supported by the arrears being paid

Don't want to see people out on the streets


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## GB72 (Aug 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's not the govs fault on this one but what id like to see happen is arrears caused by covid 19 covered by the gov. We have already supported people with furlough and grants so it wouldn't even make a dent in the debt really.

Those who own a house were offered payment holidays by the banks

Furlough people got wages

Those who have lost out but now can get on again would be nice to see them supported by the arrears being paid

Don't want to see people out on the streets
		
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I suppose the comparison is that those with a mortgage still owe the amounts due for the mortgage holiday plus interest on that sum and so have, effectively received the same as those in the rental market. The position is pretty much the same in that home owners face the risk of repossession in the same way that renters face eviction. The only difference is that the renter is at the whim of how a private landlord wants to act whereas there is more sympathy among mainstream lenders these days. 

A scheme whereby the government paid some rent and any arrears etc then became an interest free debt to the government would seem equitable. The rent is paid and any arrears etc cleared by the government are deducted at source as part of your PAYE when you are back in employment.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely a lot of the money available is used to pay for their pension funds.
		
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Only in 'the same way' any private company that operates a pension scheme commits to contributing to it also.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I suppose the comparison is that those with a mortgage still owe the amounts due for the mortgage holiday plus interest on that sum and so have, effectively received the same as those in the rental market. The position is pretty much the same in that home owners face the risk of repossession in the same way that renters face eviction. The only difference is that the renter is at the whim of how a private landlord wants to act whereas there is more sympathy among mainstream lenders these days. 

A scheme whereby the government paid some rent and any arrears etc then became an interest free debt to the government would seem equitable. The rent is paid and any arrears etc cleared by the government are deducted at source as part of your PAYE when you are back in employment.
		
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Very good idea.

Private landlords could take the holidays and the Tennant's were still expected to pay when really they could not charge .. as they will own the house outright eventually and the rent will cover the mortgage they don't lose out 

Home owners in better place because even if they did lose their house they could sell up and then use the money to rent if it all went wrong.. renters just constantly get shafted it seems


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2020)

Neither Sunak or 'Government ' have any money. 

Any giveaways will add to the UK £2tn debt which is accruing interest: it is not FREE, it must be repaid via taxes.

Householders who have used the mortgage payment holiday have not had an interest holiday.

In general the UK has been pretty generous compared to many nations but economic realism must start to come into play.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			Neither Sunak or 'Government ' have any money. 

Any giveaways will add to the UK £2tn debt which is accruing interest: it is not FREE, it must be repaid via taxes.

Householders who have used the mortgage payment holiday have not had an interest holiday.

In general the UK has been pretty generous compared to many nations but economic realism must start to come into play.
		
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We will never balance the books. Yes we will have to pay it back in taxes but it's all fantasy money ..... We will always have debt 

It would be better to support people to keep them in homes so they carry on working etc. If you have no where to live how long can you go working etc? It all adds up

2 trillion or 2.1 trillion it will still just be money that never gets fully repaid


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## Ethan (Aug 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			Neither Sunak or 'Government ' have any money.

Any giveaways will add to the UK £2tn debt which is accruing interest: it is not FREE, it must be repaid via taxes.

Householders who have used the mortgage payment holiday have not had an interest holiday.

In general the UK has been pretty generous compared to many nations but economic realism must start to come into play.
		
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So how does Johnson stick to his recently reaffirmed manifesto pledge of not raising national insurance, VAT or income taxes?

Through economic growth? Not a chance. least of all with a calamitous Brexit.

They could tax their mates with lots of offshore money. Just kidding, that will never happen. 

Sunak has had it easy so far, throwing money around without protest while sounding much more reasonable than other Tories. He will find the going getting a lot tougher soon.


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We will never balance the books. Yes we will have to pay it back in taxes but it's all fantasy money ..... We will always have debt

It would be better to support people to keep them in homes so they carry on working etc. If you have no where to live how long can you go working etc? It all adds up

2 trillion or 2.1 trillion it will still just be money that never gets fully repaid
		
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Except the higher interest will reduce the Budget and thus public services, infrastructure and investment. 

It's is real money when it hits real people and employers and its naive to think there is no reckoning.


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see the ban on evictions is lifted on Sunday.  That's not good.  Hearing stories of landlords threatening eviction action starting next week unless rent arrears are paid immediately.  And of course many whose work is still on hold or who have lost their jobs have no income to pay what they owe - and there is no scope to pay arrears out of their UC - if that's what they are on - even if they can make up the shortfall between UC contribution to the rent and what they will be paying.

Houseowners who are in the same income situation could be taking a mortgage 'holiday' - money still has to be paid back but at least they might can a sympathetic ear or a rearrangement from the lender.   Many private landlords may not feel they are able to be so accommodating - they may have mortgage payments or arrears to meet themselves.  Risk of surge in homeless.  What to do.  Very worrying time for many.

Can or should the government do anything - or is it just tough - and a fact of life when you are on the dole.  Meanwhile self-employed can apply for a second grant to keep themselves going...whether they need the money or not.
		
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Legal beaggles say the current eviction process takes over 3 months even after court proceedings take place so although it’s an issue that needs resolving for both the tenants and landlords nobody will be out on their ear immediately.


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## GB72 (Aug 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Legal beaggles say the current eviction process takes over 3 months even after court proceedings take place so although it’s an issue that needs resolving for both the tenants and landlords nobody will be out on their ear immediately.
		
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Add to that the covid related backlogs in the courts and you could be looking 6 months plus.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			Except the higher interest will reduce the Budget and thus public services, infrastructure and investment.
...
		
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Only if the government decides that's what they want to do!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Add to that the covid related backlogs in the courts and you could be looking 6 months plus.
		
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...and meanwhile for all that time the landlord has debt collection agencies banging on your door - whilst living in the fear that eviction is coming and that there is simply nothing you can do about it unless you are lucky enough to find a job and further income.


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and meanwhile for all that time the landlord has debt collection agencies banging on your door - whilst living in the fear that eviction is coming and that there is simply nothing you can do about it unless you are lucky enough to find a job and further income.
		
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You seem to tar all the landlords as bad guys, why, the majority are reasonable people. What is your beef, what proof have you that the thousands of landlords are about to evict all their tenants.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You seem to tar all the landlords as bad guys, why, the majority are reasonable people. What is your beef, what proof have you that the thousands of landlords are about to evict all their tenants.
		
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Am I? I don’t think I made any general point - just one highlighting the terrible stresses and worries many of our Fellow citizens are currently living with and fearing.  And if there was little risk why did the government even bother  having a ban on evictions?


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Am I? I don’t think I made any general point - just one highlighting the terrible stresses and worries many of our Fellow citizens are currently living with and fearing.  And if there was little risk why did the government even bother  having a ban on evictions?
		
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General point, what a load of tosh, you made one of your predictable one size catch all attacks on what the government did. Perhaps they should have done nothing but there again they extended the legislation for another month so you can increase your post count in 30 days time with another unsubstantiated attack.


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2020)

Ban on evictions to be extended.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			So how does Johnson stick to his recently reaffirmed manifesto pledge of not raising national insurance, VAT or income taxes?

Through economic growth? Not a chance. least of all with a calamitous Brexit.

They could tax their mates with lots of offshore money. Just kidding, that will never happen.

Sunak has had it easy so far, throwing money around without protest while sounding much more reasonable than other Tories. He will find the going getting a lot tougher soon.
		
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How can he be held to a manifesto pledge when the whole world has been through an ecconomic mincer.  Surely even you must realise that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			General point, what a load of tosh, you made one of your predictable one size catch all attacks on what the government did. Perhaps they should have done nothing but there again they extended the legislation for another month so you can increase your post count in 30 days time with another unsubstantiated attack.
		
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I did not attack the government - I said that I hoped they'd reconsider ending the ban on evictions.  I then said that if they didn't then that would be their choice to put many people and families at risk of eviction. THAT is what I said.  

And let's not forget that some here are not great fans of such government intervention and support.  However it is excellent news that they have extended the ban on evictions and gone further to make it necessary for landlords to give 6months notice.  

Another poster in response to mine suggested somewhat sarcastically that _it _was all the governments fault - I did not suggest it was (whatever _it _was_) _- and another asked - what do you suggest should happen?  Well the government has answered that question - and so I might be tempted to ask those who disagreed with the substance or the tone of my couple of posts on the matter - what do _you _suggest they should have done?  Because oviously there was some push back against my hope of an extension.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How can he be held to a manifesto pledge when the whole world has been through an ecconomic mincer.  Surely even you must realise that.
		
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You are talking about Brexiting on the 31st December yes?


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## Ethan (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How can he be held to a manifesto pledge when the whole world has been through a minser.  Surely even you must realise that.
		
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What is a minser?

Johnson repeated the promise in July. Read this

I know that it is, as with most of his other utterances, a lie, but I didn't make him say it. Surely even you must realise that?

I would be more than happy to see him break it, given the exceptional circumstances, so long as he did the same with Brexit for the same reasons.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*How can he be held to a manifesto pledge* when the whole world has been through an ecconomic mincer.  Surely even you must realise that.
		
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Well, he should be - until he explains that that manifesto is no longer viable! I'd possibly/probably forgive him for having to do so, but, imo, it would still go down as a broken manifesto pledge! Remember that the Manifesto is, supposedly, a set of *promises* that forms the basis upon which voters select which party to vote for! If they go back on those promises, there's an argument for the government resigning and calling another election - with an 'adjusted' Manifesto!


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			What is a minser?.
		
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Careful


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## Ethan (Aug 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Well, he should be - until he explains that that manifesto is no longer viable! I'd possibly/probably forgive him for having to do so, but, imo, it would still go down as a broken manifesto pledge! Remember that the Manifesto is, supposedly, a set of *promises* that forms the basis upon which voters select which party to vote for! If they go back on those promises, there's an argument for the government resigning and calling another election - with an 'adjusted' Manifesto!
		
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He has had plenty of chances to row back on it, and get away with it, but has chosen not to.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			What is a minser?

Johnson repeated the promise in July. Read this

I know that it is, as with most of his other utterances, a lie, but I didn't make him say it. Surely even you must realise that?

I would be more than happy to see him break it, given the exceptional circumstances, so long as he did the same with Brexit for the same reasons.
		
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You will notice I corrected that typo.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Well, he should be - until he explains that that manifesto is no longer viable! I'd possibly/probably forgive him for having to do so, but, imo, it would still go down as a broken manifesto pledge! Remember that the Manifesto is, supposedly, a set of *promises* that forms the basis upon which voters select which party to vote for! If they go back on those promises, there's an argument for the government resigning and calling another election - with an 'adjusted' Manifesto!
		
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So a World wide pandemic that has put the global economy into chaos needs spelling out on how it will decimate the previous budget plans.  We will hear soon enough how we will need to tighten our belts, the timing may not suit some but the Government may just have a few other things on and some rather difficult plans to make rather than apologising to a bunch of pedants that their manifesto needs changing.  get real for crying out load.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So a World wide pandemic that has put the global economy into chaos needs spelling out on how it will decimate the previous budget plans.  We will hear soon enough how we will need to tighten our belts, the timing may not suit some but the Government may just have a few other things on and some rather difficult plans to make rather than apologising to a bunch of pedants that their manifesto needs changing.  get real for crying out load.
		
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More than one way out of a recession though. We could plough Into construction projects 

Housing shortage hasn't gone away 
Would create jobs for people
Would bring in lot of tax aswell

Maybe build some of those new hospitals they promised and staff them

Invest in cleaner transport 

All creates jobs , raises money . Without the need for cuts cuts cuts


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So a World wide pandemic that has put the global economy into chaos needs spelling out on how it will decimate the previous budget plans.  We will hear soon enough how we will need to tighten our belts, the timing may not suit some but the Government may just have a few other things on and some rather difficult plans to make rather than apologising to a bunch of pedants that their manifesto needs changing.  get real for crying out load.
		
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Doesn't change the obligations/implications of what a Manifesto is! No doubt there would be (more difficult/expensive) alternatives!
If the Manifesto has to change, then so be it. But a Government elected on a specific Manifesto (promises to the electorate), that subsequently breaks those promises, needs to explain the reasons for doing so! Whether the electorate accepts those reasons is up to the electorate!


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Doesn't change the obligations/implications of what a Manifesto is! No doubt there would be (more difficult/expensive) alternatives!
If the Manifesto has to change, then so be it. But a Government elected on a specific Manifesto (promises to the electorate), that subsequently breaks those promises, needs to explain the reasons for doing so! Whether the electorate accepts those reasons is up to the electorate!
		
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Ask the electorate what the governments manifesto promises was I suspect 90% wil shrug their shoulders and look at you blankly.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			More than one way out of a recession though. We could plough Into construction projects 

Housing shortage hasn't gone away 
Would create jobs for people
Would bring in lot of tax aswell

Maybe build some of those new hospitals they promised and staff them

Invest in cleaner transport 

All creates jobs , raises money . Without the need for cuts cuts cuts
		
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I'm not disagreeing with that. Did you think I should?
I would only say that tax returns from government money is not a gain.


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			More than one way out of a recession though. We could plough Into construction projects

Housing shortage hasn't gone away
Would create jobs for people
Would bring in lot of tax aswell

Maybe build some of those new hospitals they promised and staff them

Invest in cleaner transport

All creates jobs , raises money . Without the need for cuts cuts cuts
		
Click to expand...

Good idea, could I request the A303 goes to the top of the list.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not disagreeing with that. Did you think I should?
I would only say that tax returns from government money is not a gain.
		
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It is if you get mass employment encouraging people to spend again boosting the economy and bringing in even more tax

Whilst on the flip side taking people off universal credits 

So instead of paying out for people they pay out for investment in people that brings back money 

We need a massive boost to get the economy going again and with the dreaded b word on way it really is time to rebuild the entire country from top to bottom 

Make a future for our kids not make our kids wish for a future we had


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## MegaSteve (Aug 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Ask the electorate what the governments manifesto promises was I suspect 90% wil shrug their shoulders and look at you blankly.
		
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I am fairly confident the press will happily remind those amongst the electorate who require their memories jogging...


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## Ethan (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You will notice I corrected that typo.
		
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Grrat. Nothing on Johnson to acknowledge he did say as I suggested he did?


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## DanFST (Aug 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			What is a minser?

Johnson repeated the promise in July. Read this

I know that it is, as with most of his other utterances, a lie, but I didn't make him say it. Surely even you must realise that?

I would be more than happy to see him break it, given the exceptional circumstances, so long as he did the same with Brexit for the same reasons.
		
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Assuming you were even more annoyed by the Lib Dems in 2012.
It seems as if politicians lie.....


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 22, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Assuming you were even more annoyed by the Lib Dems in 2012.
*It seems as if politicians lie.....*

Click to expand...

But only when their lips are moving.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 22, 2020)

A short message to Rishi just in case he keeps a watchful eye on forum utterances...

Touch the triple lock at your peril ...


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I did not attack the government - I said that I hoped they'd reconsider ending the ban on evictions.  I then said that if they didn't then that would be their choice to put many people and families at risk of eviction. THAT is what I said. 

And let's not forget that some here are not great fans of such government intervention and support.  However it is excellent news that they have extended the ban on evictions and gone further to make it necessary for landlords to give 6months notice. 

Another poster in response to mine suggested somewhat sarcastically that _it _was all the governments fault - I did not suggest it was (whatever _it _was_) _- and another asked - what do you suggest should happen?  Well the government has answered that question - and so I might be tempted to ask those who disagreed with the substance or the tone of my couple of posts on the matter - what do _you _suggest they should have done?  Because oviously there was some push back against my hope of an extension.
		
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I wonder why, in this case, you haven't jumped in to accuse the government of a "U turn".   For which you have "previous" - 
Haven't you missed an opportunity to slag off Johnson and Co? 
You're slipping🙄


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## drdel (Aug 22, 2020)

It might be worth noting that evictions aren't banned: it's the Court process that are on hold with a substantial backlog.


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## Foxholer (Aug 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			It might be worth noting that evictions aren't banned: it's the Court process that are on hold with a substantial backlog.
		
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And the effect is....that evictions are/continue to be 'banned'! 
Putting the Court process on hold is the mechanism by which 'evictions are banned', which is what virtually every report I've seen states! In his interview, Housing Minister Jenrick described it as a 'stay', but that was, typically, misquoted by at least 1 rag!


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## Ethan (Aug 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wonder why, in this case, you haven't jumped in to accuse the government of a "U turn".   For which you have "previous" -
Haven't you missed an opportunity to slag off Johnson and Co?
You're slipping🙄
		
Click to expand...

A U-turn is generally when political pressure or other external forces make the Govt go back on a plan, even though they really don't want to. There is no virtue in that. 

On those rare occasions when a Gift realises a policy is unwise and it is responsible to change it, that is more akin to learning and should usually be applauded. 

Johnson doubling down on the manifesto pledge (and other Ministers have done the same), despite the massive financial defects of Covid suggests that learning is not part of his process. But political and economic pressure will force his hand, if his hand is even still on the wheel early next year. 

All political parties are the same in this respect. Certitude seems to be an overvalued political virtue, even when it runs against all reasonable evidence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			Neither Sunak or 'Government ' have any money.

Any giveaways will add to the UK £2tn debt which is accruing interest: it is not FREE, it must be repaid via taxes.

Householders who have used the mortgage payment holiday have not had an interest holiday.

In general the UK has been pretty generous compared to many nations but economic realism must start to come into play.
		
Click to expand...

That first line is bookmarked and reserved for the next Scotland saved by Westminster post.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Grrat. Nothing on Johnson to acknowledge he did say as I suggested he did?
		
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What's a 'Grrat' ?

I have already explained my view on the matter, just as you have, nothing has changed my view so why would I wish to comment further?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That first line is bookmarked and reserved for the next Scotland saved by Westminster post. 

Click to expand...

Its correct, they've sent too much North 😍


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## Ethan (Aug 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have already explained my view on the matter, just as you have, nothing has changed my view so why would I wish to comment further?
		
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You haven't explained anything. You said that you thought it was OK to change the pledge due to coronavirus, but I pointed out that he had recently stood by it, but you have not explained whether you think that was wise or wether that commitment means anything.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You haven't explained anything. You said that you thought it was OK to change the pledge due to coronavirus, but I pointed out that he had recently stood by it, but you have not explained whether you think that was wise or wether that commitment means anything.
		
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I have explained something, try to keep up.
I said its unreasonable to suggest the government cannot digress fiscally from their manifesto due to he Corona virus pandemic and  I stand by that but if they want to keep to their manifesto then that's something for them to figure out.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have explained something, try to keep up.
I said its unreasonable to suggest the government cannot digress fiscally from their manifesto due to he Corona virus pandemic and  I stand by that but if they want to keep to their manifesto then that's something for them to figure out.
		
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Well, the question of whether they can actually pull off this pledge is probably uncontroversial, and I doubt even Rishi Sunak thinks they can, so the question which I thought we were debating was whether it was politically responsible or wise to stick by it, as well as a wider question of politicians sticking to promises because adapting is seen as weak. But you don't seem to care about any of that because "that's something for them to figure out", so I look forward to seeing you apply the same uncritical ambivalence to a range of other political questions. It's OK to criticise the Govt when it is deserved, you know. They won't kick you out of the True Blue club for a first offence.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, the question of whether they can actually pull off this pledge is probably uncontroversial, and I doubt even Rishi Sunak thinks they can, so the question which I thought we were debating was whether it was politically responsible or wise to stick by it, as well as a wider question of politicians sticking to promises because adapting is seen as weak. But you don't seem to care about any of that because "that's something for them to figure out", so I look forward to seeing you apply the same uncritical ambivalence to a range of other political questions. It's OK to criticise the Govt when it is deserved, you know. They won't kick you out of the True Blue club for a first offence.
		
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Your point is unreasonable, it's like a man laid in a hospital bed after being struck by lightening and his wife stood by him complaining that he had promised to take her out to dinner but hasnt apologised yet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wonder why, in this case, you haven't jumped in to accuse the government of a "U turn".   For which you have "previous" - 
Haven't you missed an opportunity to slag off Johnson and Co? 
You're slipping🙄
		
Click to expand...

It is indeed yet another u-turn.  A Governments that continues to make u-turns - sometimes days after promising no change of direction - suggest lack of clear direction in that government. Meanwhile pilot in chief to provide the clear direction has been absent.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Your point is unreasonable, it's like a man laid in a hospital bed after being struck by lightening and his wife stood by him complaining that he had promised to take her out to dinner but hasnt apologised yet.
		
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I think you are losing it. Perhaps lost it. OK, let's leave it there, since you are unwilling or unable to actually debate the issue.


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## Hobbit (Aug 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is indeed yet another u-turn.  A Governments that continues to make u-turns - sometimes days after promising no change of direction - suggest lack of clear direction in that government. Meanwhile pilot in chief to provide the clear direction has been absent.
		
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Or a govt that is flexible and responsive. Depends how you spin it.

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Or a govt that is flexible and responsive. Depends how you spin it.

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
		
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Well, the problem is not that the media and public castigate them for changing their minds, it is that they make themselves hostages to fortune with boldly stated promises which are often unrealistic even in normal times, and then usually reaffirm their commitment even after it is obvious it is untenable, then only change when forced to do so. They deserve to get a kicking for that.

If politicians treated the public as the responsible adults they always claim the public are, and said that there are difficult choices to make, this is what they have chosen and why, but also that if circumstances change significantly, the policy may have to be reconsidered, then in terms of Covid, taxes or triple lock pensions, I think most reasonable people would be OK with that.


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## drdel (Aug 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is indeed yet another u-turn.  A Governments that continues to make u-turns - sometimes days after promising no change of direction - suggest lack of clear direction in that government. Meanwhile pilot in chief to provide the clear direction has been absent.
		
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He is entitled to a holiday, the UK is not a dictatorship not do we have an Emporer: there are Ministers in charge!

He didn't fly off to an expensive destination but simply went for a break in the Highlands without any fuss. You would find fault with anything and everything, whether relevant to addressing the issues around the virus or not.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think you are losing it. Perhaps lost it. OK, let's leave it there, since you are unwilling or unable to actually debate the issue.
		
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I guess your version of debate the issue is to either keep repeating the same belief or to accept your version, I have no intention of doing either so 'yes' you could say I've lost it in that respect.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			He is entitled to a holiday, the UK is not a dictatorship not do we have an Emporer: there are Ministers in charge!

He didn't fly off to an expensive destination but simply we for a break in the Highlands without any fuss. You would find fault with anything and everything, whether relevant to addressing the issues around the virus or not.
		
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It’s as if thoughts on where the prime minister is through the exams mess is something that only I have commented upon.  If I am finding fault then I am not alone...yet the accusation is that I am somehow out on a limb with any such thoughts.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess your version of debate the issue is to either keep repeating the same belief or to accept your version, I have no intention of doing either so 'yes' you could say I've lost it in that respect.
		
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My version of debate is to say something about the topic. You still haven’t actually commented on whether Johnson should have recommitted to the pledge. I will assume that you are just an unthinking loyalist.


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## drdel (Aug 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s as if thoughts on where the prime minister is through the exams mess is something that only I have commented upon.  If I am finding fault then I am not alone...
		
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OK,  but the personalisation of everything when we have a full Cabinet form of government is  plainly silly. It is just lazily swallowing and pandering to the media and press who just want to put out a name to blame to fill the page and airwaves with sensationalism.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2020)

*


Ethan said:



			My version of debate is to say something about the topic. You still haven’t actually commented on whether Johnson should have recommitted to the pledge. I will assume that you are just an unthinking loyalist.
		
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*


SocketRocket said:



			How can he be held to a manifesto pledge when the whole world has been through an ecconomic mincer.  Surely even you must realise that.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I have explained something, try to keep up.
I said its unreasonable to suggest the government cannot digress fiscally from their manifesto due to he Corona virus pandemic and  I stand by that but if they want to keep to their manifesto then that's something for them to figure out.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I guess your version of debate the issue is to either keep repeating the same belief or to accept your version, I have no intention of doing either so 'yes' you could say I've lost it in that respect.
		
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Try re-reading my comments, you will see that I have made my view clear enough on the Conservative manifesto and how recent events have changed the economic situation to a degree that it would be unreasonable to to hold the government to account over its previous fiscal policy.  I also explained that if they decide not to increase tax or NI then it's for them to show how they will do this.

If you cannot understand what I have said then I'm sorry but I cant say it any plainer so you are either being obtuse or stupid.  I suggest the former.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Try re-reading my comments, you will see that I have made my view clear enough on the Conservative manifesto and how recent events have changed the economic situation to a degree that it would be unreasonable to to hold the government to account over its previous fiscal policy.  I also explained that if they decide not to increase tax or NI then it's for them to show how they will do this.

If you cannot understand what I have said then I'm sorry but I cant say it any plainer so you are either being obtuse or stupid.  I suggest the former.
		
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I understand exactly what you are saying but we are not debating whether it is possible to maintain the fricking pledge or not. I am trying to make the point that despite all the evidence that it is impossible to fix the balance sheet through growth alone, especially with the additional unnecessary insult of Brexit, Johnson and other Cabinet Ministers have doubled down and reaffirmed their pledge. I have repeatedly asked you what you think of that political act, but you have just repeated that you have made your point clear on the issue on which we already agree. 

So, what do you think of the political wisdom of reaffirming that pledge, and are there any other economic options you would prefer?


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			OK,  but the personalisation of everything when we have a full Cabinet form of government is  plainly silly. It is just lazily swallowing and pandering to the media and press who just want to put out a name to blame to fill the page and airwaves with sensationalism.
		
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Yeah, but we clearly don't have a Cabinet Govt in reality. We have a quasi-Presidential form. Looks at the political paralysis, not that it is necessarily a bad thing, when Johnson was hiding away in St. Thomas' and when he is on holiday. 

He also likes to dodge Parliament as much as possible too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			OK,  but the personalisation of everything when we have a full Cabinet form of government is  plainly silly. It is just lazily swallowing and pandering to the media and press who just want to put out a name to blame to fill the page and airwaves with sensationalism.
		
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We have a cabinet of ministers who have sworn an oath of loyalty to Johnson as demanded by Cummings.  As many commentators have pointed out this does not mean the current cabinet are up to their job - and it most probably means that they will not make any significant decision without the OK from Johnson.  Those who refused to swear the oath of loyalty or refuse to toe-the-line are nowhere to be seen.  Indeed Williamson has said that he had spoken to the PM and he had approved the decision to U-turn on A-levels.  Besides - plenty of folks have cancelled holidays or had to return early from them if the circumstances demanded it.  But not our PM.


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## drdel (Aug 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have a cabinet of ministers who have sworn an oath of loyalty to Johnson as demanded by Cummings.  As many commentators have pointed out this does not mean the current cabinet are up to their job - and it most probably means that they will not make any significant decision without the OK from Johnson.  Those who refused to swear the oath of loyalty or refuse to toe-the-line are nowhere to be seen.  Indeed Williamson has said that he had spoken to the PM and he had approved the decision to U-turn on A-levels.  Besides - plenty of folks have cancelled holidays or had to return early from them if the circumstances demanded it.  But not our PM.
		
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It would seem you accept the media portrayed view of politicians, especially anyone in Government.

I have a strong suspicion that there is absolutely nobody that would measure up to your standards which rather makes any debate about politicians with you a waste of time.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I understand exactly what you are saying but we are not debating whether it is possible to maintain the fricking pledge or not. I am trying to make the point that despite all the evidence that it is impossible to fix the balance sheet through growth alone, especially with the additional unnecessary insult of Brexit, Johnson and other Cabinet Ministers have doubled down and reaffirmed their pledge. I have repeatedly asked you what you think of that political act, but you have just repeated that you have made your point clear on the issue on which we already agree.

So, what do you think of the political wisdom of reaffirming that pledge, and are there any other economic options you would prefer?
		
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When you say 'The Pledge' I assume you are referring to the Conservatives manifesto where they will not increase tax thresholds for national insurance rates. How many times must I repeat that for me it would be quite reasonable to increase them but if the government decide not to then they will need to show what measures they will use to reduce the increased defecit.  I am not in a position of making that decision for them.

You keep mentioning the Governments reaffirmation that they will not increase tax thresholds or Ni levels, can you show where they have stated this?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			It would seem you accept the media portrayed view of politicians, especially anyone in Government.

I have a strong suspicion that there is absolutely nobody that would measure up to your standards which rather makes any debate about politicians with you a waste of time.
		
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If there were a change of Government then I think his standards would adjust.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			When you say 'The Pledge' I assume you are referring to the Conservatives manifesto where they will not increase tax thresholds for national insurance rates. How many times must I repeat that for me it would be quite reasonable to increase them but if the government decide not to then they will need to show what measures they will use to reduce the increased defecit.  I am not in a position of making that decision for them.

You keep mentioning the Governments reaffirmation that they will not increase tax thresholds or Ni levels, can you show where they have stated this?
		
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Sigh. I knew you do not make that decision for the Govt. OK, then don't comment further on the politics then until you join the Cabinet. I am not in the Cabinet either, but I think it is bad politics to keep making promises you can't keep, and which you know you can't keep. That includes this and the great imaginary Brexit future. A strong and capable leader would be shifting the message towards the realistic. 

The manifesto pledge was for income tax, NI and VAT. Hardly need to scroll

I will assume you now also object to debates on the rules of golf unless the people concerned are on the R&A Rules Committee, or the merits of golf courses unless they are designers?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Sigh. I knew you do not make that decision for the Govt. OK, then don't comment further on the politics then until you join the Cabinet. I am not in the Cabinet either, but I think it is bad politics to keep making promises you can't keep, and which you know you can't keep. That includes this and the great imaginary Brexit future. A strong and capable leader would be shifting the message towards the realistic.

The manifesto pledge was for income tax, NI and VAT. Hardly need to scroll

I will assume you now also object to debates on the rules of golf unless the people concerned are on the R&A Rules Committee, or the merits of golf courses unless they are designers?
		
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"Big Sigh" 
You really are the master of prevarication, never mind Brexit theres another thread for that but I guess in your 'lack of balance' world everything is a Brexit issue.

I asked you to show where the Government have reafirmed their pledge not to increase tax thresholds or Ni, maybe you can show me where they have said this recently, the 2019 manifesto is not recently.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			"Big Sigh"
You really are the master of prevarication, never mind Brexit theres another thread for that but I guess in your 'lack of balance' world everything is a Brexit issue.

I asked you to show where the Government have reafirmed their pledge not to increase tax thresholds or Ni, maybe you can show me where they have said this recently, the 2019 manifesto is not recently.
		
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In that newspaper link I sent previously, referenced income tax, NI and VAT. Dated July 6th, so I think he knew by then the economy was badly affected. Sorry if you don't like mentions of Brexit - I would be a bit embarrassed if I was a Brexiter too - but it is a consideration in thinking about the economy, and the UK could, and any responsible Govt would, negotiate a delay in order to decouple the potentially disastrous combo of end of transition and abad winter pandemic. 

So, I asked you to comment on the political wisdom of this. You can mention Brexit too if you think it will help matters. Fire away.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			In that newspaper link I sent previously, referenced income tax, NI and VAT. Dated July 6th, so I think he knew by then the economy was badly affected. Sorry if you don't like mentions of Brexit - I would be a bit embarrassed if I was a Brexiter too - but it is a consideration in thinking about the economy, and *the UK could, and any responsible Govt would, negotiate a delay *in order to decouple the potentially disastrous combo of end of transition and abad winter pandemic.

So, I asked you to comment on the political wisdom of this. You can mention Brexit too if you think it will help matters. Fire away.
		
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Surely that would depend on what the EU wanted in return for a delay. If it means that we continue to pay our subs at the current level then it might not be a bad idea. If it means that we have to increase our payments and get landed with a percentage of the Covid recovery costs then it might not be such a good idea.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely that would depend on what the EU wanted in return for a delay. If it means that we continue to pay our subs at the current level then it might not be a bad idea. If it means that we have to increase our payments and get landed with a percentage of the Covid recovery costs then it might not be such a good idea.
		
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In the circumstances, I suspect the EU would welcome it. They will get a hit in Jan too, and probably would be happy to postpone that for at least 6 months. on the payments, that is still going to be cheaper than the costs of leaving right now, especially when ill-prepared. On Covid recovery, I don't think the UK will be subsiding anywhere else.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			In the circumstances, I suspect the EU would welcome it. They will get a hit in Jan too, and probably would be happy to postpone that for at least 6 months. on the payments, that is still going to be cheaper than the costs of leaving right now, especially when ill-prepared. On Covid recovery, I don't think the UK will be subsiding anywhere else.
		
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Unfortunately the costs of leaving are going to have to be paid at some point. I'm not convinced that delaying it for 6 months will make that much of a difference. Possibly better to rip off the plaster and get the pain out of the way earlier. I'm not sure that we will be any better prepared in 6 months time than we are now. We could delay our departure by 10 years and nothing would be publicly resolved for the first 9 years, 364 days and there would be a mad scramble to get something agreed in the last 5 minutes before the deadline.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unfortunately the costs of leaving are going to have to be paid at some point. I'm not convinced that delaying it for 6 months will make that much of a difference. Possibly better to rip off the plaster and get the pain out of the way earlier. I'm not sure that we will be any better prepared in 6 months time than we are now. We could delay our departure by 10 years and nothing would be publicly resolved for the first 9 years, 364 days and there would be a mad scramble to get something agreed in the last 5 minutes before the deadline.
		
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The costs of membership are less than the costs of leaving. Ripping off the plaster right now is akin to taking the patient off the ventilator immediately to see if they can breathe spontaneously. They probably can’t but at least it brings certainty. 

Not even the ardent Brexiters imagined that the final departure would be part of a cataclysmic double whammy of economic effects. No sane economist thinks this is a good idea.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			In that newspaper link I sent previously, referenced income tax, NI and VAT. Dated July 6th, so I think he knew by then the economy was badly affected. Sorry if you don't like mentions of Brexit - I would be a bit embarrassed if I was a Brexiter too - but it is a consideration in thinking about the economy, and the UK could, and any responsible Govt would, negotiate a delay in order to decouple the potentially disastrous combo of end of transition and abad winter pandemic.

So, I asked you to comment on the political wisdom of this. You can mention Brexit too if you think it will help matters. Fire away.
		
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That article is the Manifesto dated 2019, it makes no new pledge to uphold the tax and Ni levels.  The Chancellor has already told us we are in for a hard time and no doubt we will be informed what that means in due course.

Brexit is a pledge and has been realised so you need to get over it rather than continueing to harp on about your sad loss.   Hanging on to the lost dream by our fingernails will cost us dearly and only delay us making the commitment we need push ahead with the changes needed to create a better future.   If being a part of it is an embarrassment to you then there are alternatives you could consider.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 24, 2020)

Credit to the Government for preparing for the perfect storm.
https://news.sky.com/story/revealed...-spike-coincides-with-no-deal-brexit-12055049


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That article is the Manifesto dated 2019, it makes no new pledge to uphold the tax and Ni levels.  The Chancellor has already told us we are in for a hard time and no doubt we will be informed what that means in due course.

Brexit is a pledge and has been realised so you need to get over it rather than continueing to harp on about your sad loss.   Hanging on to the lost dream by our fingernails will cost us dearly and only delay us making the commitment we need push ahead with the changes needed to create a better future.   If being a part of it is an embarrassment to you then there are alternatives you could consider.
		
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No, it was a newspaper report in the Yorkshire Post dated 6 July 2020. Read it this time. The manifesto pledge was not to increase income tax, NI or VAT, and all were specifically mentioned again in July.

Seems you think some pledges are sacrosanct but others can be changed if needed.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, it was a newspaper report in the Yorkshire Post dated 6 July 2020. Read it this time. The manifesto pledge was not to increase income tax, NI or VAT, and all were specifically mentioned again in July.

Seems you think some pledges are sacrosanct but others can be changed if needed.
		
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It was an article posting the Conservative manifesto from 2019, that's not a re-conformation of it.

I have posted a number of times that if the Government wish to keep to their manifeso commitments on tax and Ni then it's up to them to explain how they will do it but the Chancellor has already told us we can expect hard times ahead. I  don't don't understand why you keep asking.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 24, 2020)

Had a tidy up, deleted a few posts and issued a warning or 2

Please can we post respecting other members opinions, without any insults and agreeing to disagree where appropriate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Scottish government considering and close to requiring high/secondary school students to wear masks between classes.  Westminster says no way that masks will be required to be worn in England's schools.  

Will be interesting to see whether Swinney/Sturgeon and Williamson/Johnson remained aligned on this given Scottish schools have returned and Swinney/Sturgeon say they are acting on new WTO guidance,


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It was an article posting the Conservative manifesto from 2019, that's not a re-conformation of it.

I have posted a number of times that if the Government wish to keep to their manifeso commitments on tax and Ni then it's up to them to explain how they will do it but the Chancellor has already told us we can expect hard times ahead. I  don't don't understand why you keep asking.
		
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Johnson said it on 6/7/20 - click here


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## Old Skier (Aug 24, 2020)

Strange that the BBC are giving the average for new Covid cases but have stopped reporting the average on deaths.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Strange that the BBC are giving the average for new Covid cases but have stopped reporting the average on deaths.
		
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Why strange...what are Sky reporting?


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## Old Skier (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why strange...what are Sky reporting?
		
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I don’t know, what are Sky reporting.

Strange because they were reporting it before. Why do the average on one and all of a sudden stop on the other.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



Johnson said it on 6/7/20 - click here

Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I have explained something, try to keep up.
I said its unreasonable to suggest the government cannot digress fiscally from their manifesto due to he Corona virus pandemic and  I stand by that *but if they want to keep to their manifesto then that's something for them to figure out*.
		
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SocketRocket said:



*but if the government decide not to then they will need to show what measures they will use to reduce the increased defecit.  I am not in a position of making that decision for them.*

Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



* I also explained that if they decide not to increase tax or NI then it's for them to show how they will do this.*

Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



*  The Chancellor has already told us we are in for a hard time and no doubt we will be informed what that means in due course.*

Click to expand...

You will see that I have repeated the same comment to you a number of times and will not do it again as you seem to be ignoring it.  There is no mileage in this now, we dont agree, we never will agree so its pointless going round in circles.  I wont comment further.


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## Foxholer (Aug 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			... we dont agree, we never will agree so its pointless going round in circles.  *I wont comment further.*

Click to expand...

Hoorah!
Can you keep to this 'promise' though?!


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You will see that I have repeated the same comment to you a number of times and will not do it again as you seem to be ignoring it.  There is no mileage in this now, we dont agree, we never will agree so its pointless going round in circles.  I wont comment further.
		
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Works for me, but you had repeatedly said that I had only posted the 2019 manifesto. That was manifestly untrue. I won't comment further to you if you don't to me.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Scottish government considering and close to requiring high/secondary school students to wear masks between classes.  Westminster says no way that masks will be required to be worn in England's schools. 

Will be interesting to see whether Swinney/Sturgeon and Williamson/Johnson remained aligned on this given Scottish schools have returned and Swinney/Sturgeon say they are acting on new WTO guidance,
		
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And nothing to do perhaps with an outbreak at a Dundee school and a desperate bid by Sturgeon and co to keep the Scottish schools open https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...members-and-two-pupils-test-positive-12055594


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## ExRabbit (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Works for me, but you had repeatedly said that I had only posted the 2019 manifesto. That was manifestly untrue. I won't comment further to you if you don't to me.
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Scottish government considering and close to requiring high/secondary school students to wear masks between classes.  Westminster says no way that masks will be required to be worn in England's schools.

Will be interesting to see whether Swinney/Sturgeon and Williamson/Johnson remained aligned on this given Scottish schools have returned and Swinney/Sturgeon say they are acting on new WTO guidance,
		
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I think that move was public driven.
Many parents concerned about the 16-18 age group.

Give England a couple of weeks and they will be following Scotland's lead again.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that move was public driven.
Many parents concerned about the 16-18 age group.

Give England a couple of weeks and they will be following Scotland's lead again.
		
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I think wearing masks in corridors/public areas in schools is sensible and should be uncontroversial. My 12 year old says he would prefer to wear one in school. He has accepted the public health message and doesn't see why the rules of virus transmission are different in the school.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

From 31st Aug masks will now be mandatory for Scottish secondary school children between classes


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## MegaSteve (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			From 31st Aug masks will now be mandatory for Scottish secondary school children between classes
		
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My eldest grandsons school sent out a communication a week or so back advising the wearing of a face covering will be a requirement in communal areas when school reconvenes... Suspect they won't be the only school that's taken that decision without prompting from government...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that move was public driven.
Many parents concerned about the 16-18 age group.

Give England a couple of weeks and they will be following Scotland's lead again.
		
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Indeed - and so after #10 told us just yesterday that there are no plans for face masks in schools - Johnson today tells us the guidance might change.  I suppose - looking positively at this - that this is not the government preparing the ground for another U-turn after an adamant doubling-down on their decision and guidance - this is Johnson taking control of 'back to school'.  However why open yourself to accusations of vacillation - just do it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 25, 2020)

[QUOTE="SwingsitlikeHogan, post: 2221544, member: 16449" that this is not the government preparing the ground for another U-turn after an adamant doubling-down on their decision and guidance - this is Johnson taking control of 'back to school'.[/QUOTE]

Alternatively, they may be looking at Scotland and how it's panning out (pupils and staff already infected in Dundee) and taking a more proactive stance. Of course that wouldn't fit with your anti government, Johnson bashing agenda but maybe, just maybe taking a pragmatic view based on the evidence emerging and changing plans accordingly should be applauded and that should masks in communial areas of school be mandatory they are actually looking after the health of staff and pupils as best as they can while trying to keep schools open and offer the best education possible in the current situation


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## User62651 (Aug 25, 2020)

Anyone with a medical background care to inform what issues there may be from long term mask wearing, I obviously don one for the supermarket etc but find them unpleasant.

Is there not a degree of reabsorbing CO2 or dampness from your own exhaled air hanging around inside the mask, a little like what you'd do if hyperventilating (brown bag treatment). An impeded airway, even slight, can't be good.
I guess surgeons, dentists and lab workers wear them though!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Alternatively, they may be looking at Scotland and how it's panning out (pupils and staff already infected in Dundee) and taking a more proactive stance. Of course that wouldn't fit with your anti government, Johnson bashing agenda but maybe, just maybe taking a pragmatic view based on the evidence emerging and changing plans accordingly should be applauded and that should masks in communial areas of school be mandatory they are actually looking after the health of staff and pupils as best as they can while trying to keep schools open and offer the best education possible in the current situation
		
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yes they are - that is indeed the correct thing to do.

But as @Ethan has said previously - the government shouldn't be so certain in the absolute correctness of their decisions...in ruling things in and ruling things out - and have such as Alok Sharma this morning declaring that there are no plans for face masks - not even for a review.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-mask-rules-in-english-schools-says-minister

Even a few hours ago #10 was saying the same.  And now the PM sets out a different story.  What happened to 'no review'?  With their desperation to sound decisive and that their decisions would not be 'led' by such as Sturgeon - the government just ends up looking a bit indecisive.  It's all very well being led by events over a period of time...because circumstances and understanding change and- but changing course sometimes on a daily basis?  They don;t need to do this.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Alternatively, they may be looking at Scotland and how it's panning out (pupils and staff already infected in Dundee) and taking a more proactive stance. Of course that wouldn't fit with your anti government, Johnson bashing agenda but maybe, just maybe taking a pragmatic view based on the evidence emerging and changing plans accordingly should be applauded and that should masks in communial areas of school be mandatory they are actually looking after the health of staff and pupils as best as they can while trying to keep schools open and offer the best education possible in the current situation
		
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yes they are - that is indeed the correct thing to do.

But as @Ethan has said previously - the government shouldn't be so certain in the absolute correctness of their decisions...in ruling things in and ruling things out - and have such as Alok Sharma this morning declaring that there are no plans for face masks - not even for a review.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-mask-rules-in-english-schools-says-minister

Even a few hours ago #10 was saying the same.  And now the PM sets out a different story.  What happened to 'no review'?  With their desperation to sound decisive and that their decisions would not be 'led' by such as Sturgeon - the government just ends up looking a bit indecisive.  It's all very well being led by events over a period of time...because circumstances and understanding change and- but changing course sometimes on a daily basis?  They don;t need to do this.[/QUOTE]

Surely you'd accept it is and remains a changing situation and so a decision taking today may, on review and fresh advice not be the right thing tomorrow. As for newspaper interviews I take every one of them with a large pinch of salt. Where is this need to sound decisive. They won the election and so in power for a good few years as it stands and so can simply get on with trying to sort an unprecedented mess out. I'd rather they changed tack if it means keeping pupils and staff safe especially as HID works in a school


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## User62651 (Aug 25, 2020)

Homer, expect you're on a mobile device but your quoting function seems to have gone haywire, you appear to be quoting yourself and then claiming SILHs words as if they're your own!
Hard to know who said what!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			yes they are - that is indeed the correct thing to do.

But as @Ethan has said previously - the government shouldn't be so certain in the absolute correctness of their decisions...in ruling things in and ruling things out - and have such as Alok Sharma this morning declaring that there are no plans for face masks - not even for a review.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-mask-rules-in-english-schools-says-minister

Even a few hours ago #10 was saying the same.  And now the PM sets out a different story.  What happened to 'no review'?  With their desperation to sound decisive and that their decisions would not be 'led' by such as Sturgeon - the government just ends up looking a bit indecisive.  It's all very well being led by events over a period of time...because circumstances and understanding change and- but changing course sometimes on a daily basis?  They don;t need to do this.
		
Click to expand...





			Surely you'd accept it is and remains a changing situation and so a decision taking today may, on review and fresh advice not be the right thing tomorrow. As for newspaper interviews I take every one of them with a large pinch of salt. Where is this need to sound decisive. They won the election and so in power for a good few years as it stands and so can simply get on with trying to sort an unprecedented mess out. I'd rather they changed tack if it means keeping pupils and staff safe especially as HID works in a school
		
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I may or may not agree with a decision - if and when a decision is made - to require secondary students to wear a mask between classes.  That's not the point.  Sharma said TODAY that there would be no review of the decision to NOT require masks to be worn - and hours later Johnson tells us that there IS a review underway.  What changed?   As this simply gives an impression that they do they not know what each other are saying or are going to say - and that they are making it up as they go along.  Which is fine from week to week as we learn more - of course we all understand that - but not the way we are seeing government changes of mind day to day and even in the same day.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

The decision on masks in school is not based on science - it is all about the politics. Sharma is one of those obedient loyalists who discovers every now and again that he is not really in the loop.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 25, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The decision on masks in school is not based on science - it is all about the politics. Sharma is one of those obedient loyalists who discovers every now and again that he is not really in the loop.
		
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So, then, I must have missed it. What is your opinion on masks in schools, including secondary, I.e. near adults?, especially in view of events in Dundee.
Being a medical chap and a man of science, as opposed to a man of politics🙄


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			So, then, I must have missed it. What is your opinion on masks in schools, including secondary, I.e. near adults?, especially in view of events in Dundee.
Being a medical chap and a man of science, as opposed to a man of politics🙄
		
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My opinion is that masks should be worn in school where possible, for example when classes are moving around and during arrival/departure.

I haven’t read the details of what happened in Dundee but near adults can certainly transmit the virus. The value is likely to be less and harder to enforce for primary schools.

Just to be clear, I think Johnson wants to do the right thing on this, but is getting pushback from some of his own MPs, such as this guy:

Marcus Fysh

He wants them banned, not even just not made mandatory.


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## DRW (Aug 26, 2020)

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/coronavirus-all-new-zealand-s-confirmed-covid-19-cases-to-be-put-in-quarantine-facilities-from-now-on.html




			All confirmed cases of COVID-19 in New Zealand will be placed quarantine facilities from now on.

Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield announced the change at a press conference on Thursday, moments after revealing there are 13 new cases of coronavirus linked to an outbreak in south Auckland.

The use of quarantine facilities marks a major departure from how positive cases were managed by health officials when New Zealand was last at level 3, as cases earlier in the year were told to simply self-isolate in their homes.
		
Click to expand...

Missed this, interesting step up in action.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

Anyone know what the latest rules are with masks in English and Welsh schools.


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know what the latest rules are with masks in English and Welsh schools.

Click to expand...

Yes, don’t you watch the news.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yes, don’t you watch the news.
		
Click to expand...

I think the answer to DfTs question is...It depends...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

Btw - wth is a ‘mutant algorithm’?  Whatever it is it is clearly enough to see the back of the head civil servant in the DoE.


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think the answer to DfTs question is...It depends...
		
Click to expand...

Yep, like some on here I expect his annual reports said “unable/unwilling to follow simple instructions “


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yep, like some on here I expect his annual reports said “unable/unwilling to follow simple instructions “
		
Click to expand...

Problem is that, as for everything to do with what we can and can’t do in this time of Covid, the simple instructions continue to change, often weekly - even sometimes in a few days, and they vary according to place, circumstance and often the individual responsible for implementing and enforcing the instructions.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Problem is that, as for everything to do with what we can and can’t do in this time of Covid, the simple instructions continue to change, often weekly - even sometimes in a few days, and they vary according to place, circumstance and often the individual responsible for implementing and enforcing the instructions.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with the medical and scientific advice changing on a regular basis too so guidance changing regularly as well to give people the best advice possible. Or perhaps just a different day and a different way to whinge about the government and their decision making


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Problem is that, as for everything to do with what we can and can’t do in this time of Covid, the simple instructions continue to change, often weekly - even sometimes in a few days, and they vary according to place, circumstance and often the individual responsible for implementing and enforcing the instructions.
		
Click to expand...

It’s taken you all this time to finally get it. As with everything from the weather up, things change and change quickly but, as a good plan never survives first contact with the enemy, flexible response is the answer.

Now I understand that there will always be some who will directly ignore government whoever’s in government but reasonable and responsible people will.

Its up to the individual to decide which category they wish to be in.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			...
Alternatively, they may be looking at Scotland and how it's panning out (pupils and staff already infected in Dundee) and taking a more proactive stance. Of course that wouldn't fit with your anti government, Johnson bashing agenda but maybe, just maybe taking a pragmatic view based on the evidence emerging and changing plans accordingly should be applauded and that should masks in communial areas of school be mandatory they are actually looking after the health of staff and pupils as best as they can while trying to keep schools open and offer the best education possible in the current situation
		
Click to expand...

Kindly explain stating 'No plans to enforce masks in schools' one day, then a complete about face a couple of days later doesn't open BoJo to an accusation of poor 'management'!


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Btw - wth is a ‘mutant algorithm’?  Whatever it is it is clearly enough to see the back of the head civil servant in the DoE.
		
Click to expand...

It's one that works as specified/required, but produces politically embarrassing (therefore unacceptable) results!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It’s taken you all this time to finally get it. As with everything from the weather up, things change and change quickly but, as a good plan never survives first contact with the enemy, *flexible response is the answer.*

Now I understand that there will always be some who will directly ignore government whoever’s in government but reasonable and responsible people will.

Its up to the individual to decide which category they wish to be in.
		
Click to expand...

Is that after days and days of quite clearly stating the policies will not change.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Kindly explain stating 'No plans to enforce masks in schools' one day, then a complete about face a couple of days later doesn't open BoJo to an accusation of poor 'management'!
		
Click to expand...

It's all going fine you cynical doubter. https://www.ft.com/content/2feb9cc1-02e7-4d02-bb5c-25aff1adb93b


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that after days and days of quite clearly stating the policies will not change.

Click to expand...

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that this government is not falling over a cliff edge and appears to have a policy and communications set up that nobody can make a case for but not to accept things do change in an ever changing situation seems a bit silly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nothing to do with the medical and scientific advice changing on a regular basis too so guidance changing regularly as well to give people the best advice possible. Or perhaps just a different day and a different way to whinge about the government and their decision making
		
Click to expand...

Yes it often is.  But that does change the fact of what I posted - which is simply that the advice is not consistent and is continually changing.  And that simple fact makes it quite hard for any of us to get to grips with and fully understand.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that after days and days of quite clearly stating the policies will not change.

Click to expand...

...and giving 'solid' reasons for the approach being taken, and similarly 'solid' reasons why the alternative approach is absolutely inappropriate.


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes it often is.  But that does change the fact of what I posted - which is simply that the advice is not consistent and is continually changing.  And that simple fact makes it quite hard for any of us to get to grips with and fully understand.
		
Click to expand...

How can advice be consistent if it’s continua changing


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and giving 'solid' reasons for the approach being taken, and similarly 'solid' reasons why the alternative approach is absolutely inappropriate.
		
Click to expand...

They have a get out clause whether you accept it or not, “we are following the scientific advice”.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that this government is not falling over a cliff edge and appears to have a policy and communications set up that nobody can make a case for but not to accept things do change in an ever changing situation seems a bit silly.
		
Click to expand...

And I totally agree, I prefer them or any Party to remain flexible, especially as this situation is unprecedented.

We just need those in power to think before they speak, especially when absolutely stating decisions won’t change.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			They have a get out clause whether you accept it or not, “we are following the scientific advice”.
		
Click to expand...

That’s a “cop out” not a “get out”


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nothing to do with the medical and scientific advice changing on a regular basis too so guidance changing regularly as well to give people the best advice possible. Or perhaps just a different day and a different way to whinge about the government and their decision making
		
Click to expand...

If they haven't learnt by now that medical and scientific advice CAN change (though I don't believe it has changed that drastically!) and modify the language they use for their pronouncements, then they seriously undermine their competence as 'politicians' imo!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 27, 2020)

Why don't the English schools/health department's  cut out the middle management men and advisors and simply say 'we will just follow on from whatever Nicola does.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why don't the English schools/health department's  cut out the middle management men and advisors and simply say 'we will just follow on from whatever Nicola does.

Click to expand...

I've heard the current policy in most schools now is to listen to the latest DFe advice and then plan to implement the opposite of what they say. It saves time.


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## DRW (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why don't the English schools/health department's  cut out the middle management men and advisors and simply say 'we will just follow on from whatever Nicola does.

Click to expand...

Why doesn't Nicola just copy other nations that have used masks in schools for a lot longer. 

Do you never get bored of blowing smoke up her derriere? 

Next you will be saying she has saved the world 

Her performance has not been great over the virus, lets all be honest, far to many unneeded deaths in Scotland as well.....

Totally agree with Pauls post above, to say we aren't changing and then changing it the following day, looks stupid, un professional, just plan rubbish approach to things (not the first time the government has done that either)


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 27, 2020)

Strange post...SNP baddd but Boris is worserrrrrrr.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why don't the English schools/health department's  cut out the middle management men and advisors and simply say 'we will just follow on from whatever Nicola does.

Click to expand...

True enough - and that's exactly what England has done! Scotland/FM initially attempted to ride the challenge by those downgraded, but fairly quickly decided it was better to stay with the School gradings - and let Universities etc sort the mess out! Exactly as England did!

U-Turns all round! No credit to either leader imo!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			True enough - and that's exactly what England has done! Scotland/FM initially attempted to ride the challenge by those downgraded, but fairly quickly decided it was better to stay with the School gradings - and let Universities etc sort the mess out! Exactly as England did!

U-Turns all round! No credit to either leader imo!
		
Click to expand...

Do you not think that the English politicians should have looked at what happened in Scotland and anticipated the same happening to them.
Virtually the same system, you did'nt have to be a genius to see what was coming.

Scotland endured a week of screaming and howling from the unionistas re exam results..........they suddenly went very very quiet when Williamson followed suit.

BTW I notice that Switzerland has now been added to the UK ban list two weeks after Scotland Government called it.


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/27/europe-last-waking-lockdown-folly/


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you not think that the English politicians should have looked at what happened in Scotland and anticipated the same happening to them.
Virtually the same system, you did'nt have to be a genius to see what was coming.

Scotland endured a week of screaming and howling from the unionistas re exam results..........they suddenly went very very quiet when Williamson followed suit.
...
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure they (and their civil servants) did! That's why it was so daft to repeat Scotland's blunder!


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/27/europe-last-waking-lockdown-folly/

Click to expand...

Sadly I don’t pay a penny to this rag so I’ll have to miss out on its hateful rants.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Sadly I don’t pay a penny to this rag so I’ll have to miss out on its hateful rants.
		
Click to expand...

fly away snowflake troll and go read your cotton-candy trotskyite fantasy comics


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Sadly I don’t pay a penny to this rag so I’ll have to miss out on its hateful rants.
		
Click to expand...

I see the Telegraph were printing Qanon conspiracy theories about pizza emojis the other day, so that's the kind of level they now seem to have descended to.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Aug 31, 2020)

Guys play nice or we won’t be playing at all
👍


----------



## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see the Telegraph were printing Qanon conspiracy theories about pizza emojis the other day, so that's the kind of level they now seem to have descended to.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not sure how I’d avoided learning about QAnon until about two weeks ago but now I am astounded at just how widespread these notions are!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’m not sure how I’d avoided learning about QAnon until about two weeks ago but now I am astounded at just how widespread these notions are!
		
Click to expand...

From some of the people they interviewed at the march in London the other day on the protest against chuff knows what, Bill Gates seemed to be a common target for the heinous crime of trying to make it easier to vaccinate kids against diseases that could kill them, it is frightening how much people seem to believe something they have read on Facebook nowadays. Independent thought and critical analysis seem to be an increasingly disappearing skill.


----------



## GreiginFife (Aug 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			From some of the people they interviewed at the march in London the the day on the protest against chuff knows what, Bill Gates seemed to be a common target for the heinous crime of trying to make it easier to vaccinate kids against diseases that could kill them, it is frightening how much people seem to believe something they have read on Facebook nowadays. Independent thought and critical analysis seem to be an increasingly disappearing skill.
		
Click to expand...


As a number of posters on here demonstrate admirably, why research or analyse when someone else can do it (badly) for you or to play to their own bias?


----------



## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/27/europe-last-waking-lockdown-folly/

Click to expand...

I don’t have access to this either, but did she advance an alternative to lockdown that still achieves the objective of stopping circulation? 

Either you stop the virus circulating, which means minimising person to person contact through suicidal distancing snd thd like, or you accept a de facto herd immunity strategy. Despite much initial hoopla that Sweden pulled off the no lockdown version, their death rates have turned out to be much higher than their neighbours of similar size and culture.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I don’t have access to this either, but did she advance an alternative to lockdown that still achieves the objective of stopping circulation?

Either you stop the virus circulating, which means minimising person to person contact through suicidal distancing snd thd like, or you accept a de facto herd immunity strategy. Despite much initial hoopla that Sweden pulled off the no lockdown version, their death rates have turned out to be much higher than their neighbours of similar size and culture.
		
Click to expand...

*Europe is at last waking up to its lockdown folly*
As battening down the hatches fast loses favour, we can at least take this as a glimmer of hope

Did you hear it? Beyond the second wave sirens and the schools debate, the sound of the penny dropping on the global stage. In recent days, world leaders have hinted at an extraordinary admission: lockdowns are a disaster, and we can’t afford to repeat the mistake.

Still, when that spiritless reverend of the global order Angela Merkel delivered this confession a few days ago, she was so officiously ambiguous that the world paid no attention. “Politically, we want to avoid closing borders again at any cost, but that assumes that we act in coordination,” she droned at a summit in the Mediterranean. And with that, an earthquake: saving lives “at any cost” has been excised from the lexicon of liberal internationalism. Instead the aim is to save the economy. This means “acting in coordination” to kill off second lockdowns.

Emmanuel Macron was the first leader to drop this little bombshell. Last week he said that France can’t cope with the “collateral damage” of a second lockdown, explaining that “zero risk never exists in any society”. Italy joined in three days later, with the health minister hinting that the country will not return to national hibernation. Meanwhile, after lauding China’s draconian lockdown, the World Health Organisation (WHO) is imploring countries to avoid battening down the hatches again.

About time. Lockdowns are officially indefensible. Sweden has won the international experiment, as its firms outperform even the German Großunternehmen while Covid deaths plummet in line with the rest of Europe. Scientists caution that it may take years to develop a vaccine. Economists warn that even the richest economies in the world cannot afford national lockdowns costing up to 3 per cent of GDP per month.

Perhaps even doom-mongering politicians have twigged that civilisation threatens to evaporate into a mushroom cloud of psychoneurotic delirium. Polling reveals that Westerners on average believe 6 per cent of their national populations have died from Covid-19. The real figure is around 100 times lower.

Or maybe global leaders have been terrified by their instinct to protect the status quo. After all, seasonal travel shutdowns are an existential threat to a borderless Europe. Italy’s collapse following another lockdown would bankrupt the Eurozone. The banal rituals of cosmopolitanism are under threat – from the professional class’s daily pilgrimage into the cities to Starbucks lattes in reusable cups.

The trouble is, if Britain is any guide, leaders will struggle to persuade the masses to keep calm and carry on. Risk-averse statesmen aren’t ideal poster children for the message that we must all learn to live with more risk.

More importantly, no leader dare tackle the toxic relationship between mass panic and “the science”. Take the problem of dodgy Covid statistics. The bizarre failure of politicians to explain to people the basic fact that “rising” cases could partly reflect an increase in testing is a scandal. So is their inability to point out that, far from being cause for alarm, mild upticks may be an encouraging sign that testing and tracing is working, as the system becomes more effective at picking up localised spikes.

Nor do governments have a handle on the spurious second wave modelling that could yet drive us into another lockdown. It is, however, a myth that politicians are helpless against the judgment of career scientists. In Britain and beyond, politicians have never followed the modelling; modelling has always followed the politicians.

As the pandemic hit, officials across the world requested forecasts for long-term worst-case scenarios, even though it is widely held in expert circles that statistical models are only accurate for roughly two-week stretches. Worse, part of the reason the science has come up with ridiculous solutions is that politicians have asked ridiculous questions.

As government adviser Prof Mark Woolhouse recently told a parliamentary committee:“We are not aiming the models at the right target; we are aiming them at everyone when in fact the burden of this disease is very concentrated.” Perhaps the number crunchers would do better to model social distancing measures directed at the vulnerable rather than population-wide lockdowns.

Sadly, world leaders are less interested in taking the science debate forward than in covering their backs. Their expediency will only fuel paranoia. After an intriguing U-turn from the WHO, face masks are being rolled out as a mass market placebo from Britain to Spain. The notion that they reassure more people than they alarm – let alone the evidence that they work – is risible. Still, they usefully distract from the incompetence of Western states when it comes to the routine mass testing that could genuinely quiet hysteria and avert new lockdowns.

And so the Covid saga rumbles on. A grim tale of Machiavellian idiocy, statistical illiteracy, and robotic leaders who have no idea how to level with voters. Still, at least they have realised their lockdown error. It’s a glimmer of hope to which we must cling.


----------



## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



*Europe is at last waking up to its lockdown folly*
As battening down the hatches fast loses favour, we can at least take this as a glimmer of hope

Did you hear it? Beyond the second wave sirens and the schools debate, the sound of the penny dropping on the global stage. In recent days, world leaders have hinted at an extraordinary admission: lockdowns are a disaster, and we can’t afford to repeat the mistake.

Still, when that spiritless reverend of the global order Angela Merkel delivered this confession a few days ago, she was so officiously ambiguous that the world paid no attention. “Politically, we want to avoid closing borders again at any cost, but that assumes that we act in coordination,” she droned at a summit in the Mediterranean. And with that, an earthquake: saving lives “at any cost” has been excised from the lexicon of liberal internationalism. Instead the aim is to save the economy. This means “acting in coordination” to kill off second lockdowns.

Emmanuel Macron was the first leader to drop this little bombshell. Last week he said that France can’t cope with the “collateral damage” of a second lockdown, explaining that “zero risk never exists in any society”. Italy joined in three days later, with the health minister hinting that the country will not return to national hibernation. Meanwhile, after lauding China’s draconian lockdown, the World Health Organisation (WHO) is imploring countries to avoid battening down the hatches again.

About time. Lockdowns are officially indefensible. Sweden has won the international experiment, as its firms outperform even the German Großunternehmen while Covid deaths plummet in line with the rest of Europe. Scientists caution that it may take years to develop a vaccine. Economists warn that even the richest economies in the world cannot afford national lockdowns costing up to 3 per cent of GDP per month.

Perhaps even doom-mongering politicians have twigged that civilisation threatens to evaporate into a mushroom cloud of psychoneurotic delirium. Polling reveals that Westerners on average believe 6 per cent of their national populations have died from Covid-19. The real figure is around 100 times lower.

Or maybe global leaders have been terrified by their instinct to protect the status quo. After all, seasonal travel shutdowns are an existential threat to a borderless Europe. Italy’s collapse following another lockdown would bankrupt the Eurozone. The banal rituals of cosmopolitanism are under threat – from the professional class’s daily pilgrimage into the cities to Starbucks lattes in reusable cups.

The trouble is, if Britain is any guide, leaders will struggle to persuade the masses to keep calm and carry on. Risk-averse statesmen aren’t ideal poster children for the message that we must all learn to live with more risk.

More importantly, no leader dare tackle the toxic relationship between mass panic and “the science”. Take the problem of dodgy Covid statistics. The bizarre failure of politicians to explain to people the basic fact that “rising” cases could partly reflect an increase in testing is a scandal. So is their inability to point out that, far from being cause for alarm, mild upticks may be an encouraging sign that testing and tracing is working, as the system becomes more effective at picking up localised spikes.

Nor do governments have a handle on the spurious second wave modelling that could yet drive us into another lockdown. It is, however, a myth that politicians are helpless against the judgment of career scientists. In Britain and beyond, politicians have never followed the modelling; modelling has always followed the politicians.

As the pandemic hit, officials across the world requested forecasts for long-term worst-case scenarios, even though it is widely held in expert circles that statistical models are only accurate for roughly two-week stretches. Worse, part of the reason the science has come up with ridiculous solutions is that politicians have asked ridiculous questions.

As government adviser Prof Mark Woolhouse recently told a parliamentary committee:“We are not aiming the models at the right target; we are aiming them at everyone when in fact the burden of this disease is very concentrated.” Perhaps the number crunchers would do better to model social distancing measures directed at the vulnerable rather than population-wide lockdowns.

Sadly, world leaders are less interested in taking the science debate forward than in covering their backs. Their expediency will only fuel paranoia. After an intriguing U-turn from the WHO, face masks are being rolled out as a mass market placebo from Britain to Spain. The notion that they reassure more people than they alarm – let alone the evidence that they work – is risible. Still, they usefully distract from the incompetence of Western states when it comes to the routine mass testing that could genuinely quiet hysteria and avert new lockdowns.

And so the Covid saga rumbles on. A grim tale of Machiavellian idiocy, statistical illiteracy, and robotic leaders who have no idea how to level with voters. Still, at least they have realised their lockdown error. It’s a glimmer of hope to which we must cling.
		
Click to expand...


OK, thanks. I think that article has a few problems.

It may be true that, so far, the Swedish economy has suffered less, but this is a middle distance race rather than a sprint. It is too early to declare winners, and before we do so, we need to know what counts as success. If it is numbers of dead, Sweden has not won. Sweden paid for that economic benefit with a death toll of 571 per million, which is more than 5 x Denmark, and more than 10 x Norway, its two neighbours. Still, a bit less than the UK, to be fair. It may also be presumed that the long term complications of Covid in survivors are also proportional to case numbers.

In the first phase of Covid, when we did not know if herd immunity was even possible, i.e. whether an antibody response would result from infection, it would have been utterly reckless to allow the disease to run rampant. Arguably, if we had restricted inward travel to the UK fast, and applied strict quarantine, we might have got away with fewer cases and then relaxing lockdown would have been less risky because there would have been less virus circulating around. That was essentially the lesson of Spanish flu a hundred years ago.

It is true that normality has to return. The Govt has placed a great emphasis on schools, knowing that allowing shops, pubs and restaurants to stay open in untenable if the public is told schools can't stay open. And resuming economic activity is important. But even if we accept that a second lockdown must be avoided, it doesn't mean that the first one was wrong or a mistake. Different stages in the response require different strategies.

She also says a vaccine could take years to develop. That is unlikely to be accurate. There are several plausible candidates in late development which have passed the critical step of showing they generate neutralising (i.e. virus killing) antibodies and production is already taking place. It is also untrue that rising case numbers are explained by increased testing. Testing numbers have actually fallen back recently, and the discerning statto knows that the key figure to determine whether rising numbers is explained by rising testing is the percentage positive rate. If this is falling while case numbers rise, it is because of greater dilution of positive cases by wider testing. This is not currently the case here or in the US.

The whole article is dropping with condescension, from references to Merkel droning to Starbucks latte drinkers to, natch, lots of anti-European sentiment. The Telegraph has done some good journalism on Covid. Her rant is not such a piece.


----------



## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			OK, thanks. I think that article has a few problems.

It may be true that, so far, the Swedish economy has suffered less, but this is a middle distance race rather than a sprint. It is too early to declare winners, and before we do so, we need to know what counts as success. If it his numbers of dead, Sweden has not won. Sweden paid for that economic benefit with a death toll of 571 per million, which is more than 5 x Denmark, and more than 10 x Norway, its two neighbours. Still, a bit less than the UK, to be fair. It may also be presumed that the long term complications of Covid in survivors are also proportional to case numbers.

In the first phase of Covid, when we did not know if herd immunity was even possible, i.e. whether an antibody response would result from infection, it would have been utterly reckless to allow the disease to run rampant. Arguably, if we had restricted inward travel to the UK fast, and applied strict quarantine, we might have got away with fewer cases and then relaxing lockdown would have been less risky because there would have been less virus circulating around. That was essentially the lesson of Spanish flu a hundred years ago.

It is true that normality has to return. The Govt has placed a great emphasis on schools, knowing that allowing shops, pubs and restaurants to stay open in untenable if the public is told schools can't stay open. And resuming economic activity is important. But even if we accept that a second lockdown must be avoided, it doesn't mean that the first one was wrong or a mistake. Different stages in the response require different strategies.

She also says a vaccine could take years to develop. That is unlikely to be accurate. There are several plausible candidates in late development which have passed the critical step of showing they generate neutralising (i.e. virus killing) antibodies and production is already taking place. It is also untrue that rising case numbers are explained by increased testing. Testing numbers have actually fallen back recently, and the discerning statto knows that the key figure to determine whether rising numbers is explained by rising testing is the percentage positive rate. If this is falling while case numbers rise, it is because of greater dilution of positive cases by wider testing. This is not currently the case here or in the US.

The whole article is dropping with condescension, from references to Merkel droning to Starbucks latte drinkers to, natch, lots of anti-European sentiment. The Telegraph has done some good journalism on Covid. Her rant is not such a piece.
		
Click to expand...

It reads like Tinfoil Bill who runs his own Facebook conspiracy group has written in - one part misdirection with one part anger.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 1, 2020)




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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 32219

Click to expand...

It’s understandable why vegetarians might be annoyed at meat eaters given how many vegetarians do it for ethical reasons. What’s more confusing is why meat eaters get angry at vegetarians!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

Last night BBC reports about 1500 new cases of infection and 2 deaths for previous 24hrs.  And there was me thinking that the BBC had stopped reporting number of deaths now that they are generally in single figures - well that’s what I read on here.🙄 

What’s changed?  Nothing i am guessing.  More likely that the BBC hadn’t actually stopped reporting numbers of deaths.  Not something the anti-Beebers will mention so I thought I would...


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s understandable why vegetarians might be annoyed at meat eaters given how many vegetarians do it for ethical reasons. What’s more confusing is why meat eaters get angry at vegetarians!
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s veggies par se

More like the vegan evangelical militia who will have a go at the carnivores


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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I don’t think it’s veggies par se

More like the vegan evangelical militia who will have a go at the carnivores
		
Click to expand...

One of my best friends is an ethical vegan and thankfully he never gives me any jip for eating meat whatsoever. And he really misses proper cheese, too.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s understandable why vegetarians might be annoyed at meat eaters given how many vegetarians do it for ethical reasons. What’s more confusing is why meat eaters get angry at vegetarians!
		
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Flatulence


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Last night BBC reports about 1500 new cases of infection and 2 deaths for previous 24hrs.  And there was me thinking that the BBC had stopped reporting number of deaths now that they are generally in single figures - well that’s what I read on here.🙄

What’s changed?  Nothing i am guessing.  More likely that the BBC hadn’t actually stopped reporting numbers of deaths.  Not something the anti-Beebers will mention so I thought I would...
		
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They report the numbers each day on the News.


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## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			One of my best friends is an ethical vegan and thankfully he never gives me any jip for eating meat whatsoever. And he really misses proper cheese, too.
		
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Veganism is like religion. Everyone should be free to practise their own beliefs, but when they try to push it on to others, it becomes a problem.


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2020)

Well the recent posts show that, despite the theme, golfers can can find a tangent and an argument anywhere.


----------



## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			Well the recent posts show that, despite the theme, golfers can can find a tangent and an argument anywhere.
		
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Oh no they can't.


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Oh no they can't. 

Click to expand...

A tad early for pantomime, but John Lewis have their Christmas displays in their stores


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			A tad early for pantomime, but John Lewis have their Christmas displays in their stores

Click to expand...

A tad early? It is all we will get this year. The Newcastle one was cancelled last week, most others have done as well. 26 consecutive years of panto for us brought to a halt . The virus has gone too far when it stops panto season


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## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			A tad early for pantomime, but John Lewis have their Christmas displays in their stores

Click to expand...

It's very early. I have tickets for the family for the second weekend in December 2021 at The Hexagon, Reading.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They report the numbers each day on the News.
		
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Not according to another anti-bbc poster on here who claimed the bbc has stopped reporting numbers of deaths now that the number is low. Quite.


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## ScienceBoy (Sep 1, 2020)

I am not in a ground largely impacted by the virus, only inconvenienced by it.

I can work from home, I can homeschool, I can cover childcare, I can shop and I can keep those around me safe.

I have been doing all these things since day 1 of lockdown and been given great support throughout.

This means my opinion here is somewhat caveated by my experience.

One thing I must say is that all the criticism to the government from all the angle like those affected families, school teachers, NHS workers etc are all valid and necessary. 

I also feel the government has made incorrect choices and decisions too late with hindsight.

Everytime the government brings out new or contradicting rules it causes confusion as a minimum and all the criticism of these near constant “U-turns” are valid.

My understanding here is the government has chosen to take an approach and has consistently maintained an approach which drives these frequent changes in advice. It is by design we are getting new advice, conflicting or not as frequently as we are.

The alternative approach at the other end of the scale would be to set out advice and never change it, which (not proven) could have been just as detrimental. The halfway house is to change some advice and not others, this again has many positives but also negatives and the choice may be political, not to contradict earlier advice or medical, how would the government choose? Probably not medical as this would be the same situation we have now!

So in summary all the criticism of the current approach are valid, the approach by design has those flaws but on reflection of the bigger picture I would rather have the approach the government has taken over the alternatives which are less medical driven but would only serve to keep the government high in opinion polls.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Last night BBC reports about 1500 new cases of infection and 2 deaths for previous 24hrs.  And there was me thinking that the BBC had stopped reporting number of deaths now that they are generally in single figures - well that’s what I read on here.🙄

What’s changed?  Nothing i am guessing.  More likely that the BBC hadn’t actually stopped reporting numbers of deaths.  Not something the anti-Beebers will mention so I thought I would...
		
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I mentioned it when they stopped, most likely they started again, well spotted that they now include them.  Who are the anti - Beebers or is this your attempt at another attack on posters rather than the subject.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They report the numbers each day on the News.
		
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I bought it up as they stopped posting the figures for a couple of days on the 1800 hr news. That obviously makes me automatically a heretic in the eyes of SILH


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I bought it up as they stopped posting the figures for a couple of days on the 1800 hr news. That obviously makes me automatically a heretic in the eyes of SILH
		
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No - it doesn’t - but your post was a 100% dig at the BBC - a dig that you can now admit was unmerited.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - it doesn’t - but your post was a 100% dig at the BBC - a dig that you can now admit was unmerited.
		
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It was posed as a question asking if others had noticed, unlike you, I don’t throw my toys out the pram when I disagree or things don’t go my way.


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## chrisd (Sep 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The virus has gone too far when it stops panto season 

Click to expand...

"Oh no it hasn't"
C'mon someone had to do it 😁😁


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 1, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



*Europe is at last waking up to its lockdown folly*
As battening down the hatches fast loses favour, we can at least take this as a glimmer of hope

Did you hear it? Beyond the second wave sirens and the schools debate, the sound of the penny dropping on the global stage. In recent days, world leaders have hinted at an extraordinary admission: lockdowns are a disaster, and we can’t afford to repeat the mistake.

Still, when that spiritless reverend of the global order Angela Merkel delivered this confession a few days ago, she was so officiously ambiguous that the world paid no attention. “Politically, we want to avoid closing borders again at any cost, but that assumes that we act in coordination,” she droned at a summit in the Mediterranean. And with that, an earthquake: saving lives “at any cost” has been excised from the lexicon of liberal internationalism. Instead the aim is to save the economy. This means “acting in coordination” to kill off second lockdowns.

Emmanuel Macron was the first leader to drop this little bombshell. Last week he said that France can’t cope with the “collateral damage” of a second lockdown, explaining that “zero risk never exists in any society”. Italy joined in three days later, with the health minister hinting that the country will not return to national hibernation. Meanwhile, after lauding China’s draconian lockdown, the World Health Organisation (WHO) is imploring countries to avoid battening down the hatches again.

About time. Lockdowns are officially indefensible. Sweden has won the international experiment, as its firms outperform even the German Großunternehmen while Covid deaths plummet in line with the rest of Europe. Scientists caution that it may take years to develop a vaccine. Economists warn that even the richest economies in the world cannot afford national lockdowns costing up to 3 per cent of GDP per month.

Perhaps even doom-mongering politicians have twigged that civilisation threatens to evaporate into a mushroom cloud of psychoneurotic delirium. Polling reveals that Westerners on average believe 6 per cent of their national populations have died from Covid-19. The real figure is around 100 times lower.

Or maybe global leaders have been terrified by their instinct to protect the status quo. After all, seasonal travel shutdowns are an existential threat to a borderless Europe. Italy’s collapse following another lockdown would bankrupt the Eurozone. The banal rituals of cosmopolitanism are under threat – from the professional class’s daily pilgrimage into the cities to Starbucks lattes in reusable cups.

The trouble is, if Britain is any guide, leaders will struggle to persuade the masses to keep calm and carry on. Risk-averse statesmen aren’t ideal poster children for the message that we must all learn to live with more risk.

More importantly, no leader dare tackle the toxic relationship between mass panic and “the science”. Take the problem of dodgy Covid statistics. The bizarre failure of politicians to explain to people the basic fact that “rising” cases could partly reflect an increase in testing is a scandal. So is their inability to point out that, far from being cause for alarm, mild upticks may be an encouraging sign that testing and tracing is working, as the system becomes more effective at picking up localised spikes.

Nor do governments have a handle on the spurious second wave modelling that could yet drive us into another lockdown. It is, however, a myth that politicians are helpless against the judgment of career scientists. In Britain and beyond, politicians have never followed the modelling; modelling has always followed the politicians.

As the pandemic hit, officials across the world requested forecasts for long-term worst-case scenarios, even though it is widely held in expert circles that statistical models are only accurate for roughly two-week stretches. Worse, part of the reason the science has come up with ridiculous solutions is that politicians have asked ridiculous questions.

As government adviser Prof Mark Woolhouse recently told a parliamentary committee:“We are not aiming the models at the right target; we are aiming them at everyone when in fact the burden of this disease is very concentrated.” Perhaps the number crunchers would do better to model social distancing measures directed at the vulnerable rather than population-wide lockdowns.

Sadly, world leaders are less interested in taking the science debate forward than in covering their backs. Their expediency will only fuel paranoia. After an intriguing U-turn from the WHO, face masks are being rolled out as a mass market placebo from Britain to Spain. The notion that they reassure more people than they alarm – let alone the evidence that they work – is risible. Still, they usefully distract from the incompetence of Western states when it comes to the routine mass testing that could genuinely quiet hysteria and avert new lockdowns.

And so the Covid saga rumbles on. A grim tale of Machiavellian idiocy, statistical illiteracy, and robotic leaders who have no idea how to level with voters. Still, at least they have realised their lockdown error. It’s a glimmer of hope to which we must cling.
		
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Eventually all the media sources will do a u turn on their current covidphobia narrative. 

Laughable that the article pins this on government leadership when it’s the fear-mongering news that frightened most of the public, backing government into a corner with no choice but to implement daft measures to appease a public with soiled pants. 

Initially I blamed Boris, but a lot of the blame I place on MSM now.


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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Eventually all the media sources will do a u turn on their current covidphobia narrative.

Laughable that the article pins this on government leadership when it’s the fear-mongering news that frightened most of the public, backing government into a corner with no choice but to implement daft measures to appease a public with soiled pants.

Initially I blamed Boris, but a lot of the blame I place on MSM now.
		
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Do you actually mean these words?


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## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Eventually all the media sources will do a u turn on their current covidphobia narrative.

Laughable that the article pins this on government leadership when it’s the fear-mongering news that frightened most of the public, backing government into a corner with no choice but to implement daft measures to appease a public with soiled pants.

Initially I blamed Boris, but a lot of the blame I place on MSM now.
		
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This article is blaming Johnson for an unnecessary lockdown. Most public health people blame him for not locking down fast enough or hard enough and thus failing to get control of the virus, which if he had done so successfully would have lessened the economic impact. There is nothing in this article that makes any convincing case that not locking down was a good idea other economically or medically.

The Swedish example is leaking water badly. As well as the worst death rate in the Nordics, by a long way, they also had worse economic Q2 performance than Finland and barely beat Denmark. The lesson from Sweden is one about hubris, a character flaw not often seen in Swedes.

I am no fan of the MSM, but they have rightly reflected the indecision, dithering and cynicism in the Govt's approach.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It was posed as a question asking if others had noticed, unlike you, I don’t throw my toys out the pram when I disagree or things don’t go my way.
		
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It was to my reading very obviously a dig at the BBC for, as you saw it, stopping mentioning numbers of deaths.  Implying that as the number was low it might reflect well on the government and that would be counter to the anti-Tory agenda many seem to believe the BBC maintains.  But hey.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was very obviously a dig at the BBC for, as you saw it, stopping mentioning numbers of deaths.  Implying that as the number was low it might reflect well on the government and that would be counter to the anti-Tory agenda many seem to believe the BBC maintains.
		
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Funny how the person who has had a dig/insulted

The PM
Every Government Minister
The way his son shouldn't have to be included in the rules for UC
The SAGE Committee
President Trump
Anyone who voted Trump
Everyone who voted for Brexit
Everyone who voted Conservative

has the cheek to accuse others of having a dig, I didn’t have a dig, take it anyway you like but to even suggest that death numbers, no matter how low, can counter any agenda is plain sick.


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## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how the person who has had a dig/insulted

The PM
Every Government Minister
The way his son shouldn't have to be included in the rules for UC
The SAGE Committee
President Trump
Anyone who voted Trump
Everyone who voted for Brexit
Everyone who voted Conservative

has the cheek to accuse others of having a dig, I didn’t have a dig, take it anyway you like but to even suggest that death numbers, no matter how low, can counter any agenda is plain sick.
		
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You are most welcome to defend any and all of those, but you will have a more constructive and interesting debate if you do so with rational arguments rather than accusations that the other person is biased or just against the Govt. even those of us who ARE against the Govt are capable to breaking down the issues and you may be surprised to find that we are not against everything they do. 

You may have less success finding agreement on aspects of Brexit and Trump, though. 

I am not aware of people who insulted SAGE, although I, for one, have pointed out, correctly, that most of them are on the Govt payroll, so cannot really be considered independent.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You are most welcome to defend any and all of those, but you will have a more constructive and interesting debate if you do so with rational arguments rather than accusations that the other person is biased or just against the Govt. even those of us who ARE against the Govt are capable to breaking down the issues and you may be surprised to find that we are not against everything they do.

You may have less success finding agreement on aspects of Brexit and Trump, though.

I am not aware of people who insulted SAGE, although I, for one, have pointed out, correctly, that most of them are on the Govt payroll, so cannot really be considered independent.
		
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Thank you for explaining how you feel I should debate with someone who’s only form of post normaly involves one kind of general moan/insult or other, much appreciated although not really needed.

Trump may not be our ideal for President of the good old USA but to insult him and those that voted him in does seem strange.

As to Brexit, time for the minority to move on.

Be interested to know who you feel are funding the destabilising group who call themselves alternative SAGE.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You are most welcome to defend any and all of those, but you will have a more constructive and interesting debate if you do so with rational arguments rather than accusations that the other person is biased or just against the Govt. even those of us who ARE against the Govt are capable to breaking down the issues and you may be surprised to find that we are not against everything they do.

You may have less success finding agreement on aspects of Brexit and Trump, though.

I am not aware of people who insulted SAGE, although I, for one, have pointed out, correctly, that most of them are on the Govt payroll, so cannot really be considered independent.
		
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Jeremy Corbyn is on the Government payroll but hes not a great supporter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how the person who has had a dig/insulted

The PM
Every Government Minister
The way his son shouldn't have to be included in the rules for UC
The SAGE Committee
President Trump
Anyone who voted Trump
Everyone who voted for Brexit
Everyone who voted Conservative

has the cheek to accuse others of having a dig, I didn’t have a dig, take it anyway you like but to even suggest that death numbers, no matter how low, can counter any agenda is plain sick.
		
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I call out the PM in accordance with known and well published FACTS. 
I do not call out every government minister - in fact I have quite often praised Hancock and Sunak.  I question the competency of others.  
I have NEVER ONCE suggested that my son shouldn't have to be included in the rules for UC - I suggested how the government might have considered things differently on a 'once-only' basis at the very outset of the lockdown.
I have absolutely no idea what you are on about in respect of the SAGE Committee - in fact I can't recall every having actually posted anything specifically about the SAGE committee
President Trump - FACT.  And if you don't believe he has told one of two lies and is a threat to US democracy then it's easy to check that out.
Anyone who voted for Trump...?  You mean his core 32% for whom he could commit murder on 5th Avenue and get away with it?   Again.  Not sure I often criticise his support....they are who they are.
Everyone who voted Brexit.  Get over it - we are leaving.  I have in the past suggested that many who voted to Leave were deceived by leading proponents of Leave.  I do not change my view.  It is pointless though - as we are leaving.
Everyone who voted Conservative. Now that's a bit of a jump as I can't recall when I last criticised anyone for being a Conservative voter.  I might strongly disagree with many Conservative policies and might also suggest that many who vote Conservative may well have different personal agendas to mine - but hey - that's just politics

And it was not I who posted questioning why the BBC were no longer reporting the numbers of deaths.

And btw - I really struggled with Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party - and though having generally socialist inclinations I did not vote Labour in the last election because of him.  I frankly did not trust him.


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## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Thank you for explaining how you feel I should debate with someone who’s only form of post normaly involves one kind of general moan/insult or other, much appreciated although not really needed.

Trump may not be our ideal for President of the good old USA but to insult him and those that voted him in does seem strange.

As to Brexit, time for the minority to move on.

Be interested to know who you feel are funding the destabilising group who call themselves alternative SAGE.
		
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There you go, a snarky response typical of the intolerant Brexiter. A quick review of recent posts in this forum suggest it is quite typical for you to post an aggressive opinion and no facts, so I take no lectures from you. 

No idea who is funding The Independent SAGE. At least they are independent. And their opinions have not been wrong.


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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There you go, a snarky response typical of the intolerant Brexiter. A quick review of recent posts in this forum suggest it is quite typical for you to post an aggressive opinion and no facts, so I take no lectures from you.

No idea who is funding The Independent SAGE. At least they are independent. And their opinions have not been wrong.
		
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YoU LOST M8 get ova IT. etc.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There you go, a snarky response typical of the intolerant Brexiter. A quick review of recent posts in this forum suggest it is quite typical for you to post an aggressive opinion and no facts, so I take no lectures from you.

No idea who is funding The Independent SAGE. At least they are independent. And their opinions have not been wrong.
		
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No more ore less snarky than your respons. PS Brexiters don’t have to be intolerant. It appears to be remainders that have gone all gammon on every one/thing.


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You are most welcome to defend any and all of those, but you will have a more constructive and interesting debate if you do so with rational arguments rather than accusations that the other person is biased or just against the Govt. even those of us who ARE against the Govt are capable to breaking down the issues and you may be surprised to find that we are not against everything they do.

You may have less success finding agreement on aspects of Brexit and Trump, though.

I am not aware of people who insulted SAGE, although I, for one, have pointed out, *correctly,(1)* that most of them are on the Govt payroll, so *cannot really be considered independent (2)*.
		
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1. This is your opinion, worth no more and no less.

2. There is such a thing as professional integrity - whether the paymaster is the Government will not impact an expert's deduction: unless they are prepared for ridiculed by their peers and a short life as an advisor.


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## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			1. This is your opinion, worth no more and no less.

2. There is such a thing as professional integrity - whether the paymaster is the Government will not impact an expert's deduction: unless they are prepared for ridiculed by their peers and a short life as an advisor.
		
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So you condemn something that I said as an opinion, no more or no less, then offer an opinion yourself, no more or no less. 

You must be rather naive to think that the source of employment does not affect an opinion.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 1, 2020)

Gents
Let’s stop the tit for tat exchanges please

Thank you


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			So you *condemn* something that I said as an opinion, no more or no less, then offer an opinion yourself, no more or no less. You *must be rather naive to think that the source of employment does not affect an opinion*.
		
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I did not *condemn* I merely identified it as an opinion.

It is ironic that some posts ago you attacked the validity of my expertise and now you call me '*naive' *: you post with personal insults yet expect your own didactic post to be accepted. 

My opinion on 'experts' is based on having being a member on numerous of UK high level Government panels, Chair of Paris' OECD 15 nation specialist committee etc. During  that 30 odd years I have found that the professional experts are quite capable of employing a balanced and logical approach to their task devoid of paymaster influence.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			So you condemn something that I said as an opinion, no more or no less, then offer an opinion yourself, no more or no less.

You must be rather naive to think that the source of employment does not affect an opinion.
		
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Is it your opinion that professional scientists and medical experts will mislead the public just to stay on side with the government.


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## Ethan (Sep 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is it your opinion that professional scientists and medical experts will mislead the public just to stay on side with the government.
		
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Is that what I said? No.

There are a variety of reasons to explain it. One of them is that the construction of the committee may give undue weight to certain components of the debate, for example behavioural psychology or modelling, rather than virology or molecular biology, and groupthink is another well known problem which affects such groups. Finally, the committee members may be selected, or excluded, in part based on pre-existing knowledge of their opinions. These opinions offered by SGAE are opinions. Drdel will be along shortly to confirm that opinions are not facts, therefore other opinions are also available. A wise committee would take account of opinions offered by external experts whether statutory or not. 

Sir David King, former Chief Scientific Adviser, was head of The Independent SAGE. He knows well how things work.


----------



## drdel (Sep 1, 2020)

Every statement made here by anyone is an opinion. 

Many are not capable of being verified or quantitatively or qualitatively tested as repeatable and so remain gossip. Experts generally have views supported by a body of knowledge and are hypothesised as 'facts' by their peers. 

It should make debate fun🤔🤔


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			Every statement made here by anyone is an opinion.

Many are not capable of being verified or quantitatively or qualitatively tested as repeatable and so remain gossip. Experts generally have views supported by a body of knowledge and are hypothesised as 'facts' by their peers.

It should make debate fun🤔🤔
		
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That is untrue. Some statements made here are backed up by evidence and facts, others are not. Some people here may be experts in one field or another, some not. Differentiating between these is important, and simply lumping everything into one pot as opinion or gossip is simply a poor attempt to discredit views with which you do not agree nor are able to refute. 

Happy to swap professional credentials if you are so that others can see who is qualified in what.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is untrue. Some statements made here are backed up by evidence and facts, others are not. Some people here may be experts in one field or another, some not. Differentiating between these is important, and simply lumping everything into one pot as opinion or gossip is simply a poor attempt to discredit views with which you do not agree nor are able to refute.

*Happy to swap professional credentials if you are so that others can see who is qualified in what*.
		
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I'll start, failed O level French first time, passed the second. La plume de ma tante.


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'll start, failed O level French first time, passed the second. La plume de ma tante.
		
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est dans le salon.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'll start, failed O level French first time, passed the second. La plume de ma tante.
		
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If your still looking it's in your Uncles sideboard.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			est dans le salon.
		
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Est sur le bureau de mon Oncle


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Sep 2, 2020)

Bonnet de douche 😎


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 2, 2020)

Mange Tout Rodney. Mange Tout


----------



## chrisd (Sep 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Happy to swap professional credentials if you are so that others can see who is qualified in what.
		
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33 yards swimming certificate 1960


----------



## funkycoldmedina (Sep 2, 2020)

Cycling proficiency 1979


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			33 yards swimming certificate 1960
		
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Ive only one for swimming a width


----------



## DRW (Sep 2, 2020)

BAGA Gymnastics award 3


----------



## Ethan (Sep 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			33 yards swimming certificate 1960
		
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Was the pool that length?


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## SatchFan (Sep 2, 2020)

Wall's Ice Cream 4 star athletics certificate 1977.


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## chrisd (Sep 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Ive only one for swimming a width
		
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Then I look down on you and all your future posts 🤫


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## chrisd (Sep 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Was the pool that length?
		
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Yes


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## DRW (Sep 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Yes
		
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Did you get a qualified pool measurer to measure it, or are you just guessing with no qualifications?

You sure it was 33 feet and the memory failing

Was it a British or English pool, asking for a friend


----------



## chrisd (Sep 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			Did you get a qualified pool measurer to measure it, or are you just guessing with no qualifications?

You sure it was 33 feet and the memory failing

Was it a British or English pool, asking for a friend

Click to expand...

Guessing

Definitely yards as I refuse to go metric

English - deep South East 

+ floundered the last few feet 😖


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Then I look down on you and all your future posts 🤫
		
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However, I take your swimming certificate and raise you my boy scouts wood chopping badge


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If your still looking it's *in* your Uncles sideboard.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Est *sur* le bureau de mon Oncle
		
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Oh dear!


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			So you condemn something that I said as an opinion, no more or no less, then offer an opinion yourself, no more or no less.

You must be rather naive to think that the source of employment does not affect an opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Not when professional medical  men and  scientists of international repute are asked to advise on life and death matters , such as a pandemic.
Your cynicism is OTT, and begs the question that may be asked of you, as a medical man- would your advice be coloured by who is paying you and their wishes, or would you be a true clinician?


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not when professional medical  men and  scientists of international repute are asked to advise on life and death matters , such as a pandemic.
Your cynicism is OTT, and begs the question that may be asked of you, as a medical man- would your advice be coloured by who is paying you and their wishes, or would you be a true clinician?
		
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I have answered that question already. If you did not understand the answer then that is your problem. 

Some SAGE members are not scientists or medics of international repute, some of those outside SAGE trying to persuade the Govt to do differently are, but were ignored. The result of the political decisions taken along with SGAE advice can be seen in the pile of bodies, amongst the highest per capita in the region. If that doesn't make you skeptical, then again that is your problem.


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## Mudball (Sep 2, 2020)

needs headphones and open minds


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not when *professional medical  men and  scientists of international repute* are asked to advise on life and death matters , such as a pandemic.
Your cynicism is OTT, and begs the question that may be asked of you, as a medical man- would your advice be coloured by who is paying you and their wishes, or would you be a true clinician?
		
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This is the core of professionalism and expertise. Thankfully not a game of CV waving a on a Golf Forum. Respected experts are engaged because it is expected that they will use their knowledge and experience in an objective and considered manner on the problem/issue at hand.

If they are seen to become a "gun for hire" the reputation and trust dies and their life and career as an expert in the field is likely to be very short lived. Most professional and honest experts do not engage in childish arguments of the "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" style. SAGE members will have opinions that differ at the margins and their advice may/will changes as the environment, society and medical knowledge evolves with ongoing research in the area.

It is entirely right that experts, politicians and decision-makers are held to account rigorously to maintain trust in the outcomes.


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			This is the core of professionalism and expertise. Thankfully not a game of CV waving a on a Golf Forum. Respected experts are engaged because it is expected that they will use their knowledge and experience in an objective and considered manner on the problem/issue at hand.

If they are seen to become a "gun for hire" the reputation and trust dies and their life and career as an expert in the field is likely to be very short lived. Most professional and honest experts do not engage in childish arguments of the "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" style. SAGE members will have opinions that differ at the margins and their advice may/will changes as the environment, society and medical knowledge evolves with ongoing research in the area.

It is entirely right that experts, politicians and decision-makers are held to account rigorously to maintain trust in the outcomes.
		
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OK, then explain to me why the UK embarked on a herd immunity stragey and stopped contact tracing, both of which appealed the international experts and pandemic-experienced public health doctors and scientists at WHO. That was a damn sight greater than differing at the margins.

It is naive to imagine that different groups of experts will arrive at similar conclusions just because they are experts. If that is true, all the efforts made to properly balance advisory committees and peer review work is unnecessary because expertise is just like gravity, it always acts in the same direction. The inclusion of certain types of expert, for example the behavioural psychologists, will clearly change the slant of advice. So to will the lack of certain other types, for example virology or molecular biology. Nobody on SAGE was an expert in vaccine development.

The "gun for hire" stuff suggests that I think some of these people are knowingly partisan. I made it clear that I did not, but that there were inevitable and unavoidable biases introduced by being from within Govt.

You are not waving your CV. You are waving something else, and you should stop doing it.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Oh dear!

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You pedantic troll 🙄   You are so sad you have to make a post to point out the difference in two separate posts  between 'in' and 'on' in French. Absolutely pathetic.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			OK, then explain to me why the UK embarked on a herd immunity stragey and stopped contact tracing, both of which appealed the international experts and pandemic-experienced public health doctors and scientists at WHO. That was a damn sight greater than differing at the margins.
		
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From my recollection the Herd Imunity Strategy was promoted by the Medical and Scientific Chief Officers and when the projected death rates were shown the Government insisted it was not used.

I also think the test and trace was stopped when it was decided to close the fragmented testing labs and resite them in more centralised larger facilities so that testing capacity could be ramped up.

Is this correct?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			needs headphones and open minds






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You do know that I've got a reputation for posting foul mouthed Pie videos which seem to get some posters clutching their pearls, when I haven't posted one for ages now. 

I have seen this one already, it's very good and he's spot on about the trust issue.  But then again I would say that.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You pedantic troll 🙄   You are so sad you have to make a post to point out the difference in two separate posts  between 'in' and 'on' in French. Absolutely pathetic.
		
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Pretty sad when a Kiwi who had 1 year of French language study over 50 years ago can spot a blunder by some international executive 'showing off'! The venom of your reply (aka personal abuse!) seems absolutely in proportion to the embarrassment you should (and probably are) feeling!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:




Pretty sad when a Kiwi who had 1 year of French language study over 50 years ago can spot a blunder by some international executive 'showing off'! The venom of your reply (aka personal abuse!) seems absolutely in proportion to the embarrassment you should (and probably are) feeling!


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'Blunder ' You're such a saddo 😔 I guess it massages your ego though.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:




Pretty sad when a Kiwi who had 1 year of French language study over 50 years ago can spot a blunder by some international executive 'showing off'! The venom of your reply (aka personal abuse!) seems absolutely in proportion to the embarrassment you should (and probably are) feeling!


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Why do you feel the need to correct people over minor mistakes, unfortunately you have a lot of history for it and there is really no need.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			'Blunder ' You're such a saddo 😔 I guess it massages your ego though.
		
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 Blunder indeed!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why do you feel the need to correct people over minor mistakes, unfortunately you have a lot of history for it and there is really no need.
		
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It's his inferiority complex coming to the surface and probably due to some form of insecurity that he has to pass off as being a pedant.  Shame really as he can be quite interesting when he acts more adult.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's his inferiority complex coming to the surface and probably due to some form of insecurity that he has to pass off as being a pedant.  Shame really as he can be quite interesting when he acts more adult.
		
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Not sure it’s anything to do with an inferiority complex


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure it’s anything to do with an inferiority complex
		
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I think it is, his attempts at putting down are a cover to boost his ego.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 2, 2020)

Seeing as you lot seem unable to stop the petty bickering, I’ll do it for you

Thread closed


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