# Junior Doctors Strike



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2016)

And so we have a two day strike by Junior Doctors and we hear Jeremy Hunt opining that they are try to "bring down the government" - and that what they are doing is fundamentally undemocratic as the the 7-day NHS was in the manifesto.  I have to say that I don't recall that or it being debated at the time - maybe it wasn't deemed that significant a pledge so not worth bothering to much about.  Anyway.  

Truth is if the Tories really want to deliver on a manifesto pledge of 7-day NHS - well they can - just not the way they are trying to do it at the moment.  Hunt's complaints are actually not much more than diversionary hot air.


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## bluewolf (Apr 26, 2016)

And the Earth is round, the sky is blue, and the sun will rise tomorrow...

I fully support the Junior Doctors.. All the Government are actually trying to do is soften up the NHS, ready for privatisation.. With any luck, this action will bring down Hunt and make people more aware of what is actually happening under our noses...


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## Rooter (Apr 26, 2016)

Glad my neice decided to dislocate her wrist yesterday rather than today! Already been discharged this morning. Just hope there are no horror stories to come out from todays actions.


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## Crazyface (Apr 26, 2016)

Does anyone know why they are striking? I think its because they won't get paid shed loads for working on a weekend. Hey you know what? That went out YEARS AGO!!!! You chose the profession. You get very well paid. Shut up and get on with it.


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## bluewolf (Apr 26, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Does anyone know why they are striking? I think its because they won't get paid shed loads for working on a weekend. Hey you know what? That went out YEARS AGO!!!! You chose the profession. You get very well paid. Shut up and get on with it.
		
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LOL... Comedy gold...


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## bluewolf (Apr 26, 2016)

Rooter said:



			Glad my neice decided to dislocate her wrist yesterday rather than today! Already been discharged this morning. Just hope there are no horror stories to come out from todays actions.
		
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All the Hospitals are covered by Consultants and senior Doctors.. All emergency cases will be seen.. Some planned Ops cancelled..


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## Rooter (Apr 26, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			All the Hospitals are covered by Consultants and senior Doctors.. All emergency cases will be seen.. Some planned Ops cancelled..
		
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I know thats the plan, but can see the Daily Fail headline tomorrow already where someone dies due to waiting too long at A&E.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 26, 2016)

This is either about money, at which point Crazyface is correct, or it is about how hospitals are run which is not for junior doctors to decide. They are employed to treat patients, not make strategic decisions on the running of hospitals.


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## ADB (Apr 26, 2016)

According to J.Hunt on Radio 4 this morning, 'we' are all to blame for this mess by voting Conservative as this was a manifesto pledge to improve 7-day NHS operation. Whether I voted Tory or not, I didn't sign up to the point scoring, pigheadedness and contempt the Government are showing Junior Doctors.


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## Snelly (Apr 26, 2016)

I do not support the junior doctors.  It is about money. Striking is not the answer, talking is.  Striking when you are paid to help the sick and injured is lower than whale poo. 


My experience of the NHS is that it is a bloated, badly managed dinosaur of a service and I am in favour of moving to a privatised healthcare system. The French model would be a good one to follow.


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## Tarkus1212 (Apr 26, 2016)

Rooter said:



			I know thats the plan, but can see the Daily Fail headline tomorrow already where someone dies due to waiting too long at A&E.
		
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I had to go to A&E at about 2pm on the day of the doctors strike in 2012. I was the only person there. Seems like those people who go to A&E for unnecessary reasons had figured out that it wasn't worth their time!


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

TBH, its hard to really know who just who is telling the truth. For example, there was a junior doctor in Breakfast TV this morning saying that there was a commitment to reduce hours and give a 13% pay rise... a govt stooge?

Anyway, if you were a business boss and had decided to change the structure of the business, would you accept your staff refusing to take on the changes, especially after lengthy consultation and negotiation? If my staff kicked off to that extent, they know where the door is.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			All the Hospitals are covered by Consultants and senior Doctors.. All emergency cases will be seen.. Some planned Ops cancelled..
		
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Not much solace for all those people who have had operations and procedures cancelled.  Some of those people will have cancer and other life threatening conditions.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 26, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			And the Earth is round, the sky is blue, and the sun will rise tomorrow...

I fully support the Junior Doctors.. All the Government are actually trying to do is soften up the NHS, ready for privatisation.. With any luck, this action will bring down Hunt and make people more aware of what is actually happening under our noses...
		
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Do you have evidence to support this claim or is it just your political belief? 

And what do you mean by privatisation?

*Provided the service remains open to all and is essentially a "free" service* does it matter if the service is provided by a Private or Public sector organisation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			TBH, its hard to really know who just who is telling the truth. For example, there was a junior doctor in Breakfast TV this morning saying that there was a commitment to reduce hours and give a 13% pay rise... a govt stooge?

Anyway, if you were a business boss and had decided to change the structure of the business, would you accept your staff refusing to take on the changes, especially after lengthy consultation and negotiation? If my staff kicked off to that extent, they know where the door is.
		
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But if your staff felt that a change in working practice that you wanted to implement would put them personally at risk (in whatever way) then they would be fully entitled to object and withdraw their labour.  And so for the doctors - they see the changes as proposed as putting both their patients and themselves at risk.  Their patients at risk of harm - themselves at risk of failing their patients and potentially 'causing' them harm.

If they want to have a 7-day NHS they can have one - just do it a different way. Except it will cost.

And I do wonder how many who voted Tory in the GE saw this as one of the key reasons for them voting as they did - I obviously don't know the answer to that but I am guessing that as manifesto pledges go it was not at the forefront of their thinking when putting the X in the box.  

Now according to Hunt it is one thing that if not delivered will cause the very foundations of the Tory government to crumble. I don't think so.


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## GB72 (Apr 26, 2016)

Always going to be a contentious subject and it has not been helped by decades of elections being won or lost on both parties promoting how much money they can throw at the NHS. That has to stop eventually. Simple fact is that we cannot afford to keep doing that and the honest truth is that we have not been able to afford it for some time. 
However painful or unpopular it may seem, some radical thinking is required to sort out the NHS problem. Now this issue is not really part of that but the calls to keep throwing money at the problem remain and so the point is relevant. 
What is niggling me is the mixed messages that are coming from the Junior Doctors. The news reports I get are that it is about pay and weekend working but the obviously well scripted message from the picket lines today is to say that it is about patient care. No details about how the contract is going to impact on patient care, just that they are striking to ensure patient care and the future of the NHS. Perhaps the thought that saying that they want more overtime and not to work as many weekends has suddenly struck them as one that will not play well with a general public that has seen a decade of pay cuts, job losses and increased work pressures. 
I am not the most sympathetic to the cause. Whilst it still costs, these people have had their training and education heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, they have guaranteed jobs for life, they know that the 6 figure salary positons are pretty much guaranteed so it is not a hard life in the medium to long term. Until then, they have to work long and unsociable hours like most people learning their trade.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 26, 2016)

If the 7 day a week proposal is such an issue why are there no nurses and consultants out on strike? Do they not care, is it only junior doctors who want to protect the NHS? The junior doctors are not there to make those judgements, they are there to treat people. Argue about working conditions or pay rates but not decisions such as this.

With regards to the manifesto, you can apply that to all points or decisions. The fact is it was in the manifesto so the Tories have a right to press ahead with this. We do not vote based on individual policies, it does not work that way. You would hope they would amend it to suit but basically if it was in they are entitled to press ahead with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Always going to be a contentious subject and it has not been helped by decades of elections being won or lost on both parties promoting how much money they can throw at the NHS. That has to stop eventually. Simple fact is that we cannot afford to keep doing that and the honest truth is that we have not been able to afford it for some time. 
However painful or unpopular it may seem, some radical thinking is required to sort out the NHS problem. Now this issue is not really part of that but the calls to keep throwing money at the problem remain and so the point is relevant. 
What is niggling me is the mixed messages that are coming from the Junior Doctors. The news reports I get are that it is about pay and weekend working but the obviously well scripted message from the picket lines today is to say that it is about patient care. No details about how the contract is going to impact on patient care, just that they are striking to ensure patient care and the future of the NHS. Perhaps the thought that saying that they want more overtime and not to work as many weekends has suddenly struck them as one that will not play well with a general public that has seen a decade of pay cuts, job losses and increased work pressures. 
I am not the most sympathetic to the cause. Whilst it still costs, these people have had their training and education heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, they have guaranteed jobs for life, they know that the 6 figure salary positons are pretty much guaranteed so it is not a hard life in the medium to long term. Until then, they have to work long and unsociable hours like most people learning their trade.
		
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The NHS is currently going to hell in a handcart.  My Mrs and her colleagues - all senior highly experienced band 7 and 8 nurse specialists working with women with breast cancer - were told yesterday that management plans are for them to work one day a week on the wards.  This will mean my wife will have to undergo training to deliver a Band 2 level role.  As she says - she hasn't done 30 yrs education and training to get to where she is today working in a specialist unit with patients with specialist needs - to be told that that role can afford to lose her for a day a week to work as a band 2 on a ward.  It is disrespectful to both her role and and experience - and will only damage the service she currently delivers.  And she will leave - as will very many senior nurses - especially those over the age of 55.  

Mind you she thinks that maybe that's what they are trying to achieve.  Cut back the role and level of nurse required to deliver her service so that the service can be outsourced to Virgin Heathcare or another private healthcare provider.  

The NHS we have is going to hell in a handcart unless we all dig deep into our pockets through increased and probably a hypothecated NHS income tax


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the 7 day a week proposal is such an issue why are there no nurses and consultants out on strike? Do they not care, is it only junior doctors who want to protect the NHS? The junior doctors are not there to make those judgements, they are there to treat people. Argue about working conditions or pay rates but not decisions such as this.

With regards to the manifesto, you can apply that to all points or decisions. The fact is it was in the manifesto so the Tories have a right to press ahead with this. We do not vote based on individual policies, it does not work that way. You would hope they would amend it to suit but basically if it was in they are entitled to press ahead with it.
		
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They are entitled to - they don't *have * to.  Yet they say they do.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 26, 2016)

If it was in their manifesto then obviously they are going to look to bring it in. Why else would it be there? They think it is a good idea. You may disagree. If political parties ignored manifesto pledges when they came into power then people would question their worth come the next election.


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## Crazyface (Apr 26, 2016)

I went for a job interview a few weeks ago, I followed the signs posted to guide all candidates to the interview location. I walked though a door that opened up into a massive room full of clerical staff.  As I chatted to the bloke who was given the task of taking my information proving who I was and was entitled to work in the UK, you wouldn't believe it, he painted a grim picture of how things work clerically. constantly changing on the whim of people in charge. Utter shambles. 

PS I'm STILL waiting for the outcome 4 weeks later. the job on the NHS site is at a status of "Decision Pending"


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mind you she thinks that maybe that's what they are trying to achieve.  Cut back the role and level of nurse required to deliver her service so that the service can be outsourced to Virgin Heathcare or another private healthcare provider.  

The NHS we have is going to hell in a handcart unless we all dig deep into our pockets through increased and probably a hypothecated NHS income tax
		
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I agree it is a big IF but if there are no cost implications and the quality is at least equal does it matter if that service is provided by the private sector.

On your other point I am in total agreement. We all want a top quality NHS but all seem to think it is someone else's responsibility to pay for it.

I don't know, however, if we as a nation can ever provide "enough" funding as science and research constantly develop new treatments and drugs all of which have significant cost implications and to someone each of those treatments etc; is vital.


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## shewy (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm going to take the simplistic view on this, why do we need a 7 day NHS? Are these people not entitled to a weekend off after a hard week to recharge the batteries?
Yes by all means have emergency cover at weekends but surely most routine stuff can wait until the working week, are these people not entitled to a life?
Also (and I don't know the answer) what about the working time directive? does it not apply to the NHS?
As for the politicians voting themselves a big wage rise and giving the majority 1% at most is an absolute disgrace. I'd love to see the hours worked by an MP for the year, even when they are there there either asleep or scamming the expenses. Shame on them.
B.T.W 7 day cover is called BUPA.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Does anyone know why they are striking? I think its because they won't get paid shed loads for working on a weekend. Hey you know what? That went out YEARS AGO!!!! You chose the profession. You get very well paid. Shut up and get on with it.
		
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If you don't know anything about a subject, it is best to just stay quiet.

This dispute is NOT about money. The Secretary of State for Health has said there is no more money, and the BMA have acknowledged that. 

This dispute is about a hard working group of professionals who have been pushed too far and aren't willing to take any more. Junior Doctors are those in hospital training positions who have not yet reached Consultant. That means they can be in their mid-30s and they represent the key group of doctors covering our 24/7 NHS. These doctors work long hours already and most work at least 1 in 3 weekends as it stands. This dispute will increase that so they work as many weekends as they have off. And they will still work the weekdays. Work intensity is high and it is being burdened with increasing bureaucracy. They do NOT get paid shedloads for working weekends. They don't even get paid their standard rate. I used to get paid 38% of my standard rate for overtime. Not time plus 38%, time minus 62%. A typical registrar in medicine gets paid about Â£45K a year. That is for saving your life after a heart attack, traeting your gran for dementia or treating your kids fracture after they fall off their skateboard. Sounds like a bargain to me.   

The argument about a 7 day NHS is a lie. The data Hunt cites is contradicted by his own Medical Director of the NHS, who says that it is not possible to say why deaths at the weekend are higher, although it may be due to case-mix (that people who come in at the weekends are sicker), and that there is no evidence that upending staffing levels will make any difference. Yet on the back of this, Hunt is making another fundamental NHS reorganisation. 

There will be no 7 day NHS, at least not an elective one. That would cost Â£20billion a year or so, and the NHS can't afford the current set up. There have been pilot studies of weekend clinics in hospitals and GP and they have attracted low levels of interest from patients.

The real subtext, though, is that the Government (including New Labour) have been moving towards a privatised NHS for some years, really since Ken Clarke and the internal market. This is sucking a massive amount of money that could be used for frontline healthcare, and that will get worse. The private companies like 'flexible' workforces, who can be moved around in the week or between jobs, so this change to JD contracts is part of that. The Chief Exec of NHS England, formerly worked for the DH and a US private healthcare company, and is really the driver behind this. 

For some years now, medicine as a profession has been declining, due to reduced prospects, eroded pensions (which are a form of deferred salary), and more and more bureaucracy, which has meant that more and more UK doctors are going to Oz, NZ and Canada where they can practice as doctors should be able to.

Even if the Govt surrender in this dispute (and they won't), the junior doctors will not get any more money. Like I said, it isn't about money. It is really about whether medicine remains a viable profession in the UK and whether further steps along the road to a privatised NHS are made easier. 

I was one of those junior doctors about 20 odd years ago, and I support them 100%. This is an existential crisis for them and if they lose, we all will.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the 7 day a week proposal is such an issue why are there no nurses and consultants out on strike? Do they not care, is it only junior doctors who want to protect the NHS? The junior doctors are not there to make those judgements, they are there to treat people. Argue about working conditions or pay rates but not decisions such as this.

With regards to the manifesto, you can apply that to all points or decisions. The fact is it was in the manifesto so the Tories have a right to press ahead with this. We do not vote based on individual policies, it does not work that way. You would hope they would amend it to suit but basically if it was in they are entitled to press ahead with it.
		
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The Consultant Contract is next on the list.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			The Consultant Contract is next on the list.
		
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Shortly followed by nurses, I imagine!

I can't believe all the people commenting on this who haven't read up on any it beyond paper headlines. I've looked into it, nowhere near enough to comment in detail, but it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Ethan has said it better than I ever will, but even as a "true blue", this is not good.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Shortly followed by nurses, I imagine!

I can't believe all the people commenting on this who haven't read up on any it beyond paper headlines. I've looked into it, nowhere near enough to comment in detail, but it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Ethan has said it better than I ever will, but even as a "true blue", this is not good.
		
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The papers are all serving their own agenda. The Telegraph deplores this strike, the Mirror loves it, The Sun is suspicious of strikes but hates Cameron, The Mail doesn't like doctors (Paul Dacre, at least), the BBC is kissing up to the Govt etc.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 26, 2016)

I just think that the whole notion of doctors working 70 plus hours a week is bonkers, these people are making life or death decisions which might effect you or your loved ones. How can they possibly function properly?

I was in hospital for 3 days a couple of weeks ago, spoke to a couple of them about their shifts, one was working a 22 hour shift, but it was ok because after 11pm he was "on Call" so would spend most of that time sleeping  --(in theory)  in practice he was on the go all that time, grabbing a sandwich on the go and barely time for a loo break.

he looked tired and jaded and said it was normal.

Its just wrong


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## Snelly (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			If you don't know anything about a subject, it is best to just stay quiet.

This dispute is NOT about money. The Secretary of State for Health has said there is no more money, and the BMA have acknowledged that. 

This dispute is about a hard working group of professionals who have been pushed too far and aren't willing to take any more. Junior Doctors are those in hospital training positions who have not yet reached Consultant. That means they can be in their mid-30s and they represent the key group of doctors covering our 24/7 NHS. These doctors work long hours already and most work at least 1 in 3 weekends as it stands. This dispute will increase that so they work as many weekends as they have off. And they will still work the weekdays. Work intensity is high and it is being burdened with increasing bureaucracy. They do NOT get paid shedloads for working weekends. They don't even get paid their standard rate. I used to get paid 38% of my standard rate for overtime. Not time plus 38%, time minus 62%. A typical registrar in medicine gets paid about Â£45K a year. That is for saving your life after a heart attack, traeting your gran for dementia or treating your kids fracture after they fall off their skateboard. Sounds like a bargain to me.   

The argument about a 7 day NHS is a lie. The data Hunt cites is contradicted by his own Medical Director of the NHS, who says that it is not possible to say why deaths at the weekend are higher, although it may be due to case-mix (that people who come in at the weekends are sicker), and that there is no evidence that upending staffing levels will make any difference. Yet on the back of this, Hunt is making another fundamental NHS reorganisation. 

There will be no 7 day NHS, at least not an elective one. That would cost Â£20billion a year or so, and the NHS can't afford the current set up. There have been pilot studies of weekend clinics in hospitals and GP and they have attracted low levels of interest from patients.

The real subtext, though, is that the Government (including New Labour) have been moving towards a privatised NHS for some years, really since Ken Clarke and the internal market. This is sucking a massive amount of money that could be used for frontline healthcare, and that will get worse. The private companies like 'flexible' workforces, who can be moved around in the week or between jobs, so this change to JD contracts is part of that. The Chief Exec of NHS England, formerly worked for the DH and a US private healthcare company, and is really the driver behind this. 

For some years now, medicine as a profession has been declining, due to reduced prospects, eroded pensions (which are a form of deferred salary), and more and more bureaucracy, which has meant that more and more UK doctors are going to Oz, NZ and Canada where they can practice as doctors should be able to.

Even if the Govt surrender in this dispute (and they won't), the junior doctors will not get any more money. Like I said, it isn't about money. It is really about whether medicine remains a viable profession in the UK and whether further steps along the road to a privatised NHS are made easier. 

I was one of those junior doctors about 20 odd years ago, and I support them 100%. This is an existential crisis for them and if they lose, we all will.
		
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I listened to BBC Radio Sheffield this morning and specifically, the interview with the spokesman for the junior doctors in our region, in which he was asked this opening question, "Is this strike about more money?"  His answer - "It is about more money yes, but not just that, it is about blah, blah...." 

It would seem from your waffling impersonation of a GCSE politics student that he is either lying, mistaken or you are wrong? 

The latter would be my bet.  


Existential crisis? Perhaps, especially if you are referring to the existence of more cash in junior doctors wallets. 

This strike is about wages - almost every strike is.  Anyone claiming otherwise is blinkered or naive.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I just think that the whole notion of doctors working 70 plus hours a week is bonkers, these people are making life or death decisions which might effect you or your loved ones. How can they possibly function properly?

I was in hospital for 3 days a couple of weeks ago, spoke to a couple of them about their shifts, one was working a 22 hour shift, but it was ok because after 11pm he was "on Call" so would spend most of that time sleeping  --(in theory)  in practice he was on the go all that time, grabbing a sandwich on the go and barely time for a loo break.

he looked tired and jaded and said it was normal.

Its just wrong
		
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In my houseman year, I worked up to 120 hours a week. We did a 1 in 2.75 rota, which meant we did every weekday 8.30 to 5.30, plus every third night, plus a second doctor worked on 'take nights' which were 1 in 6 nights, plus we all covered each others leave. A few times I was so tired I drove home, arrived home and couldn't remember leaving the hospital or driving home. 

As an SHO, a couple of years later, we did a 1 in 4, which was only about 80 hours, but every 1 in 3 weekends, I worked from Friday morning through to Monday 5pm, then back on duty Tuesday morning.

One New Years Eve, I was sitting in a Casualty having seen someone with chest pain and admitted them. The porter arrived to take the patient to the ward and said to me 'Bummer, doc, working tonight. Still, at least we are getting triple time'. 'I'm not' I said, 'I'm getting 38% of my standard rate'. 'Time plus 38%?' he asked. 'No, just 38%'. 'Jesus, doc, I thought you lot were supposed to [redacted] smart'. 

Junior Doctors have always been paid badly for overtime. They are not doing it for the money, but they have mortgages and families to support, and when you do 60 or 70 hours, you have more childcare to cover. When you are earning an hourly rate which after tax doesn't pay the childcare, you are not doing it for the money.


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## Snelly (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			In my houseman year, I worked up to 120 hours a week. We did a 1 in 2.75 rota, which meant we did every weekday 8.30 to 5.30, plus every third night, plus a second doctor worked on 'take nights' which were 1 in 6 nights, plus we all covered each others leave. A few times I was so tired I drove home, arrived home and couldn't remember leaving the hospital or driving home. 

As an SHO, a couple of years later, we did a 1 in 4, which was only about 80 hours, but every 1 in 3 weekends, I worked from Friday morning through to Monday 5pm, then back on duty Tuesday morning.

One New Years Eve, I was sitting in a Casualty having seen someone with chest pain and admitted them. The porter arrived to take the patient to the ward and said to me 'Bummer, doc, working tonight. Still, at least we are getting triple time'. 'I'm not' I said, 'I'm getting 38% of my standard rate'. 'Time plus 38%?' he asked. 'No, just 38%'. 'Jesus, doc, I thought you lot were supposed to [redacted] smart'. 

Junior Doctors have always been paid badly for overtime. They are not doing it for the money, but they have mortgages and families to support, and when you do 60 or 70 hours, you have more childcare to cover. When you are earning an hourly rate which after tax doesn't pay the childcare, you are not doing it for the money.
		
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None of this is news.  Everyone who signs up for this as a career knows what they are walking into unless they are a total idiot.   

Suck it up doctors and get back to work.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I listened to BBC Radio Sheffield this morning and specifically, the interview with the spokesman for the junior doctors in our region, in which he was asked this opening question, "Is this strike about more money?"  His answer - "It is about more money yes, but not just that, it is about blah, blah...." 

It would seem from your waffling impersonation of a GCSE politics student that he is either lying, mistaken or you are wrong? 

The latter would be my bet.  


Existential crisis? Perhaps, especially if you are referring to the existence of more cash in junior doctors wallets. 

This strike is about wages - almost every strike is.  Anyone claiming otherwise is blinkered or naive.
		
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If I could give a toss about your trolling and snarky opinion, I would respond. See below:


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## balaclava (Apr 26, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I do not support the junior doctors.  It is about money. 
My experience of the NHS is that it is a bloated, badly managed dinosaur of a service .
		
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I agree with you - It's all about money, they want as much as they can get and will use the nations love of the NHS to line their own pockets.
AND, I agree with the that the NHS is overstaffed and underemployed (badly managed). I have lived and worked in other countries and can compare, other hospitals in other countries (or private hospitals in this country) get through twice the work load on half as many staff because they are managed.  The NHS is just like every nationalised industry, overstaffed under-employed and overpaid.  The doctors on strike are a disgrace.


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## balaclava (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			If you don't know anything about a subject, it is best to just stay quiet.
This dispute is NOT about money.
		
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It is ABSOLUTELY about money.  It's about a bunch of prima donnas who convince each other that their 4 years at medical school (subsidised by the tax-payer) followed by 'x' learning years in hospital on full pay entitles them to MORE and MORE money.   They need some medicine, it's called reality pills.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

balaclava said:



			I agree with you - It's all about money, they want as much as they can get and will use the nations love of the NHS to line their own pockets.
AND, I agree with the that the NHS is overstaffed and underemployed (badly managed). I have lived and worked in other countries and can compare, other hospitals in other countries (or private hospitals in this country) get through twice the work load on half as many staff because they are managed.  The NHS is just like every nationalised industry, overstaffed under-employed and overpaid.  The doctors on strike are a disgrace.
		
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Well, you have convinced me with all those well researched and referenced gross generalisations. I am even considering moving to one of the unstated or possibly imaginary countries where you lived. How was the golf there?


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## USER1999 (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			In my houseman year, I worked up to 120 hours a week. We did a 1 in 2.75 rota, which meant we did every weekday 8.30 to 5.30, plus every third night, plus a second doctor worked on 'take nights' which were 1 in 6 nights, plus we all covered each others leave. A few times I was so tired I drove home, arrived home and couldn't remember leaving the hospital or driving home. 

As an SHO, a couple of years later, we did a 1 in 4, which was only about 80 hours, but every 1 in 3 weekends, I worked from Friday morning through to Monday 5pm, then back on duty Tuesday morning.

One New Years Eve, I was sitting in a Casualty having seen someone with chest pain and admitted them. The porter arrived to take the patient to the ward and said to me 'Bummer, doc, working tonight. Still, at least we are getting triple time'. 'I'm not' I said, 'I'm getting 38% of my standard rate'. 'Time plus 38%?' he asked. 'No, just 38%'. 'Jesus, doc, I thought you lot were supposed to [redacted] smart'. 

Junior Doctors have always been paid badly for overtime. They are not doing it for the money, but they have mortgages and families to support, and when you do 60 or 70 hours, you have more childcare to cover. When you are earning an hourly rate which after tax doesn't pay the childcare, you are not doing it for the money.
		
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My Mrs worked these hours too. It's why she is no longer working for the NHS. They work fewer hours these days, but it's still not a job I'd want. I value my sleep.

I don't like them being on strike, but I can see why they are.

Money isn't worth much if you don't have any time off to enjoy it.


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## Snelly (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			If I could give a toss about your trolling and snarky opinion, I would respond. See below:
		
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Steady love. You'll end up with a self-infraction. If you do you can probably get a cream for it, but not from a junior doctor, least not today as they are all in the pub. 

And for the record, I am not trolling - I have articulated my opinion.  Your response is perfectly understandable and natural though as it is the standard reaction of anyone in the liberal middle classes to anyone with a differing view.   

So if you can see this far down off your high horse, who is right?  The junior doctor in Sheffield who said this morning on BBC radio that in fact, the strike was absolutely about more money,  or you?    One of you is completely wrong.


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## balaclava (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Well, you have convinced me with all those well researched and referenced gross generalisations. I am even considering moving to one of the unstated or possibly imaginary countries where you lived. How was the golf there?
		
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I've lived and worked in 5 different countries (6 including the UK).  I can compare apples with apples.  I'll give you an example (one of many)  . . . I have had BSC's for more than 20 years and get them cut out on a regular basis.  I can compare the number of staff involved and the amount of time and bureaucracy involved from hospitals in other countries compared with the UK and I can tell you without any doubt that the UK has twice and many doctors, nurses, and support staff than any other country I've been in.   The NHS is just badly managed it isn't managed at all, the Consultants do what ever they want to do when they want to do it and it trickles down from there.  That's fact.

And the golf is better not least because they (generally) have a more egalitarian culture where doctors play golf with ordinary mortals and not just other doctors.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 26, 2016)

Have to say I don't side with the docs on this. I work for the NHS and have been shafted time and time again with Agenda for change etc. 

It's their turn to take a hit as us all other staff have had it for years but we won't look forward to a huge 6 figure salary. Oh and i know of consultants doubling that 6 figure salary with a little bit of overtime.

And to use Â£45k as some sort of justification of being a low wage for the job they do shows you're not on this planet.


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I do not support the junior doctors.  It is about money. Striking is not the answer, talking is.  Striking when you are paid to help the sick and injured is lower than whale poo. 


My experience of the NHS is that it is a bloated, badly managed dinosaur of a service and I am in favour of moving to a privatised healthcare system. The French model would be a good one to follow.
		
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I DO support the 'Junior' Doctors! I agree it's (mainly) about money, but there seem to be some sinister 'other factors' - primarily back-door preparation for privatisation - that worry me! However, the basic issue is that the Tories promised a 24/7 NHS without properly costing it - or assuming they could simply impose their will on the staff required to deliver their promise!

Also agree that talking is much better than striking, but JDs have been 'forced' to take the strike route because Government isn't prepared to talk! As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what 'industry' is involved..strikes are a last resort these days!

It seems to me that the 'bloatedness' you refer to is more because of the drain caused by (non-medical) management and systems than by the medical areas. Though any health service is actually a bottomless (money-) pit!


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

balaclava said:



			I've lived and worked in 5 different countries (6 including the UK).  I can compare apples with apples.  I'll give you an example (one of many)  . . . I have had BSC's for more than 20 years and get them cut out on a regular basis.  I can compare the number of staff involved and the amount of time and bureaucracy involved from hospitals in other countries compared with the UK and I can tell you without any doubt that the UK has twice and many doctors, nurses, and support staff than any other country I've been in.   The NHS is just badly managed it isn't managed at all, the Consultants do what ever they want to do when they want to do it and it trickles down from there.  That's fact.

And the golf is better not least because they (generally) have a more egalitarian culture where doctors play golf with ordinary mortals and not just other doctors.
		
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Anytime someone says that is fact, they are talking total crap. So again it proves to be. The U.K. is certainly not over doctored compared to most western countries. You haven't even named one of these countries so it could still all be in your imagination. Now perhaps you attract a crowd of staff to one of your BSC excisions but don't assume that is representative and there is no good data available for that.  

For those in the real world, the U.K. has fewer doctors per capita than many comparator countries. Balaclava looks like a Daily Mail reader, so check out what they have to say:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...00-people-fewer-Latvia-Estonia-Lithuania.html


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Steady love. You'll end up with a self-infraction. If you do you can probably get a cream for it, but not from a junior doctor, least not today as they are all in the pub. 

And for the record, I am not trolling - I have articulated my opinion.  Your response is perfectly understandable and natural though as it is the standard reaction of anyone in the liberal middle classes to anyone with a differing view.   

So if you can see this far down off your high horse, who is right?  The junior doctor in Sheffield who said this morning on BBC radio that in fact, the strike was absolutely about more money,  or you?    One of you is completely wrong.
		
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That reminds me, I must put the bins out.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 26, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I DO support the 'Junior' Doctors! I agree it's (mainly) about money, but there seem to be some sinister 'other factors' - primarily back-door preparation for privatisation - that worry me! However, the basic issue is that the Tories promised a 24/7 NHS without properly costing it - or assuming they could simply impose their will on the staff required to deliver their promise!

Also agree that talking is much better than striking, but JDs have been 'forced' to take the strike route because Government isn't prepared to talk! As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what 'industry' is involved..strikes are a last resort these days!

It seems to me that the 'bloatedness' you refer to is more because of the drain caused by (non-medical) management and systems than by the medical areas. Though any health service is actually a bottomless (money-) pit!
		
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I don't see the big problem with privatisation.  It will certainly get rid of all the deadwood floating about the place. That includes non-medical and medical staff. 

Too many ornaments working in the NHS. The amount of consultants who are handless never ceases to amaze me. They need to have their bums wiped by anyone and everyone half the time.


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## Snelly (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			That reminds me, I must put the bins out.
		
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A poor response Ethan. 


Stick to the subject of exotic golf shafts would be my advice.  No class angst bias in that field and you seem to know your stuff.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Snelly said:



			A poor response Ethan. 


Stick to the subject of exotic golf shafts would be my advice.  No class angst bias in that field and you seem to know your stuff.
		
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You are making assumptions about me. One of these is to accept a hearsay comment made by an unnamed doctor on Radio Sheffield. The Chairman of BMA Council, whom I have known for over 25 years, says it isn't about more money. Who should I believe? Him, or your unnamed correspondent?

The BMA have accepted that the pay envelope, as the DH calls it, is fixed. That means no more money. Same money, same number of doctors means no net increases. What they are concerned about is a rebalancing of the work week towards weekends, as a fix for a problem which probably doesn't really exist, and if it did, best case would be that you would simply distribute deaths through the week. As I said before,  but you did not comment on it, even the paper in the BMJ published by the NHS Medical director, who works for Hunt, said that the reason for the weekend effect is not known and staff changes may have no effect.


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

I've just read up on the new T's&C's, hours, pay rise. I also read up on the death rates for midweek, Saturday and Sunday. I'm missing something coz it looks very attractive. Is it because its more weekend work and more time off mid week?

Unless someone has a link to something different, sorry but I just don't get what the juniors doctors gripe is.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I've just read up on the new T's&C's, hours, pay rise. I also read up on the death rates for midweek, Saturday and Sunday. I'm missing something coz it looks very attractive. Is it because its more weekend work and more time off mid week?

Unless someone has a link to something different, sorry but I just don't get what the juniors doctors gripe is.
		
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Where did you read up on the weekend death rates? Did you read anything that suggests this new contract would improve them? Or did you read up on anything that suggested the reasons behind differing death rates for those who are admitted at weekends?


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Where did you read up on the weekend death rates? Did you read anything that suggests this new contract would improve them? Or did you read up on anything that suggested the reasons behind differing death rates for those who are admitted at weekends?
		
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You've picked up on one point. What about the 33% pay rise, covering a longer spread of hours? And for info, it is on the BBC's website.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You've picked up on one point. What about the 33% pay rise, covering a longer spread of hours? And for info, it is on the BBC's website.
		
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I did indeed pick up on the one point, being the main justification point from the Health Secretary, that has been completely and utterly shot down.

33% payrise? More like 13% payrise in base pay (I believe), with a cut in other pay. As far as i've seen, this doesn't result in a pay rise for anyone. And this still comes back to "why do we need more staff at weekends"? Until he can prove that, then this whole thing is a wasted exercise, prepping for privatisation.


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## Fish (Apr 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have a two day strike by Junior Doctors and we hear Jeremy Hunt opining that they are try to "bring down the government" - and that what they are doing is fundamentally undemocratic as the the 7-day NHS was in the manifesto.  I have to say that I don't recall that or it being debated at the time - maybe it wasn't deemed that significant a pledge so not worth bothering to much about.  Anyway.  

Truth is if the Tories really want to deliver on a manifesto pledge of 7-day NHS - well they can - just not the way they are trying to do it at the moment.  Hunt's complaints are actually not much more than diversionary hot air.
		
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I bet you're great fun at parties :mmm:


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## Fish (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			If I could give a toss about your trolling and snarky opinion, I would respond. See below:
		
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I have noticed a lot recently that you seem to be very rude and are constantly making personal attacks on people who don't agree with your opinion on things, If this was a forumite we would be facing or indeed receiving warnings or infractions, what gives you carte blanche to be so rude and make personal slights on people without any moderation, I think you have just lately well exceeded your authority with your comments and its been well noticed by quite a lot on here, I think you need to wind your neck in at times, I'm aware mods can't moderate other mods but your comments of late in the EU topic and now on here are against the rules of the forum which we have to adhere to, so I suggest you take stock of them also, I'm not like some on here who run to the teacher all the time unless I think it's fully justified, but I'm happy to go to Mike with a complaint about you shortly if you don't change your insulting posting style!   



Snelly said:



			Steady love. You'll end up with a self-infraction. If you do you can probably get a cream for it, but not from a junior doctor, least not today as they are all in the pub. 

And for the record, I am not trolling - I have articulated my opinion.  Your response is perfectly understandable and natural though as it is the standard reaction of anyone in the liberal middle classes to anyone with a differing view.   

So if you can see this far down off your high horse, who is right?  The junior doctor in Sheffield who said this morning on BBC radio that in fact, the strike was absolutely about more money,  or you?    One of you is completely wrong.
		
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:thup:


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			You've picked up on one point. What about the 33% pay rise, covering a longer spread of hours? And for info, it is on the BBC's website.
		
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Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			I have noticed a lot recently that you seem to be very rude and are constantly making personal attacks on people who don't agree with your opinion on things, If this was a forumite we would be facing or indeed receiving warnings or infractions, what gives you carte blanche to be so rude and make personal slights on people without any moderation, I think you have just lately well exceeded your authority with your comments and its been well noticed by quite a lot on here, I think you need to wind your neck in at times, I'm aware mods can't moderate other mods but your comments of late in the EU topic and now on here are against the rules of the forum which we have to adhere to, so I suggest you take stock of them also, I'm not like some on here who run to the teacher all the time unless I think it's fully justified, but I'm happy to go to Mike with a complaint about you shortly if you don't change your insulting posting style!   



:thup:
		
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Be my guest. Go right ahead. Whine to Mike. Throw some toys out of the cot while you are at it.


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## Junior (Apr 26, 2016)

I can only comment based on what I've read and heard in the news but I don't quite get the junior doctors position.  

Everything I've heard and read tells me that they will receive on average a 13.5% pay rise, a reduction in hours , BUT day rates for weekend between 9-5 will be at a normal rate.  99% of junior doctors will be better off and the 1 % who won't are those who today do lots of extra hours and qualify for premium rates.  

The problem is that to level out the hours, more doctors will work at weekends but when they do, they won't work as many hours during the week. What's the problem with this,  do the junior doctors not believe the proposal regarding hours?  

It just sounds like a good deal to me.  I must be missing something as I don't blame the govt for not wanting to negotiate further.  Maybe it's the media-spin but the junior doctors seem to want to have their cake and eat it.


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## Fish (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Be my guest. Go right ahead. Whine to Mike. Throw some toys out of the cot while you are at it.
		
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I rest my case :clap:


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Be my guest. Go right ahead. Whine to Mike. Throw some toys out of the cot while you are at it.
		
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To be fair Ethan, Fish has a valid point, you're postings are quite rude and I'm not sure that they are consistent with being a moderator


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Junior said:



			I can only comment based on what I've read and heard in the news but I don't quite get the junior doctors position.  

Everything I've heard and read tells me that they will receive on average a 13.5% pay rise, a reduction in hours , BUT day rates for weekend between 9-5 will be at a normal rate.  99% of junior doctors will be better off and the 1 % who won't are those who today do lots of extra hours and qualify for premium rates.  

The problem is that to level out the hours, more doctors will work at weekends but when they do, they won't work as many hours during the week. What's the problem with this,  do the junior doctors not believe the proposal regarding hours?  

It just sounds like a good deal to me.  I must be missing something as I don't blame the govt for not wanting to negotiate further.  Maybe it's the media-spin but the junior doctors seem to want to have their cake and eat it.
		
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You are missing quite a lot. The overall pay bill for junior doctors is not going to increase. That was the basic premise of the whole negotiation. There is no possible scenario in which you keep the total pay the same but 99% are better off unless you cut numbers, and the DH has said they will increase numbers. Show me where you read that 99% will be better off.

In fact, not even Jeremy Hunt claims that. He claims that doctors will not be worse off.


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## MarkE (Apr 26, 2016)

It's basically all about the doctors not wanting to give up the pay perks for working 'unsociable' weekends. Meanwhile, back in the real world, those days are long since over and nobody gets these pay boosts any longer. It's the NHS gravy train.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

MarkE said:



			It's basically all about the doctors not wanting to give up the pay perks for working 'unsociable' weekends. Meanwhile, back in the real world, those days are long since over and nobody gets these pay boosts any longer. It's the NHS gravy train.
		
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Really. What are these perks?


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.
		
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Its on the BBC's website, including 3 different graphs showing the rates paid at different times of the day. Get off your arris and look through BBC's website. Then you can email the beeb and tell them what you think.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.
		
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Ethan, you really don't seem able to stop insulting people rather than using reasoned debate.   Why don't you just explain your reasons to disagree rather than using these rather crude insults to the integrity of someone with a different opinion.  You must be intelligent enough to understand that people are wired up differently and along with their life experiences will have varying views on subjects.   It doesn't make them idiots, people that talk utter crap or complete cretins as you tend to often suggest.

Others would be far more likely to consider your opinion if it was tempered and persuasive by intelligent debate.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Its on the BBC's website, including 3 different graphs showing the rates paid at different times of the day. Get off your arris and look through BBC's website. Then you can email the beeb and tell them what you think.
		
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You don't even understand the data. That shows a set of hours (M-F 0700-1900) currently paid at basic rate with overtime (all other hours) paid at 20-100%, changed to a much larger group of hours (M-F 0700-2100, Sat 0700-1700) paid at basic rate plus 13.5% and a much smaller set paid at 33-50%. The overall effect is not an increase. 

You are comparing 20-100 with 33-50 and concluding the latter is a big increase. 

I will tell the Beeb their data is accurate but some people seem to be incapable of understanding it.


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## Junior (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are missing quite a lot. The overall pay bill for junior doctors is not going to increase. That was the basic premise of the whole negotiation. There is no possible scenario in which you keep the total pay the same but 99% are better off unless you cut numbers, and the DH has said they will increase numbers. Show me where you read that 99% will be better off.

In fact, not even Jeremy Hunt claims that. He claims that doctors will not be worse off.
		
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Here .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980.  It says a small number 1% will lose out, but then sky news does say 75% will be better off.  

http://news.sky.com/story/1684491/junior-doctors-are-wrong-to-strike-says-pm

Either way, still seems a good deal.  What do they actually want out of the negotiations  ?


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ethan, you really don't seem able to stop insulting people rather than using reasoned debate.   Why don't you just explain your reasons to disagree rather than using these rather crude insults to the integrity of someone with a different opinion.  You must be intelligent enough to understand that people are wired up differently and along with their life experiences will have varying views on subjects.   It doesn't make them idiots, people that talk utter crap or complete cretins as you tend to often suggest.

Others would be far more likely to consider your opinion if it was tempered and persuasive by intelligent debate.
		
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See below. It was complete and utter ... you know what.


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:





Ethan said:



			Complete and utter crap. Show me where it says that.
		
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Ethan, you really don't seem able to stop insulting people rather than using reasoned debate....
		
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There doesn't seem to be any actual 'insult' in Ethan's post!



SocketRocket said:



			...
Others would be far more likely to consider your opinion if it was tempered and persuasive by intelligent debate.
		
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A far better statement imo!

Note: I not making any comment on the veracity (I seem to be using that word a lot these days!) of any of the opinions/statements involved!


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Junior said:



			Here .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980.  It says a small number 1% will lose out, but then sky news does say 75% will be better off.  

http://news.sky.com/story/1684491/junior-doctors-are-wrong-to-strike-says-pm

Either way, still seems a good deal.  What do they actually want out of the negotiations  ?
		
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I haven't heard Sky News on pay, but the Department of Health doesn't claim 75% will be better off. In fact, pay protection steps have to be put in to prevent large drops in pay for many.


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You don't even understand the data. That shows a set of hours (M-F 0700-1900) currently paid at basic rate with overtime (all other hours) paid at 20-100%, changed to a much larger group of hours (M-F 0700-2100, Sat 0700-1700) paid at basic rate plus 13.5% and a much smaller set paid at 33-50%. The overall effect is not an increase. 

You are comparing 20-100 with 33-50 and concluding the latter is a big increase. 

I will tell the Beeb their data is accurate but some people seem to be incapable of understanding it.
		
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Don't I? Truthfully, I just couldn't be bothered reading it too much, but I did note the different spread of hours in each graph and expected that it probably came out as cost neutral.

Can you explain why one junior doctor on breakfast tv couldn't articulate why it was a poor deal whilst another could articulate the deal very well and said he was happy with it?

Also, please remember that as a moderator others who may find your posts offensive can't put you on ignore. Surely, you could be a little more temperate and considerate, knowing you can't be put on ignore. Alternatively, just carry on abusing the privilege you have.


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## Ethan (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Don't I? Truthfully, I just couldn't be bothered reading it too much, but I did note the different spread of hours in each graph and expected that it probably came out as cost neutral.

Can you explain why one junior doctor on breakfast tv couldn't articulate why it was a poor deal whilst another could articulate the deal very well and said he was happy with it?

Also, please remember that as a moderator others who may find your posts offensive can't put you on ignore. Surely, you could be a little more temperate and considerate, knowing you can't be put on ignore. Alternatively, just carry on abusing the privilege you have.
		
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There have been many junior doctors interviewed on all sorts of programmes. I have only seen a few of them. Most are just everyday regular doctors and not involved with the negotiations and not proficient in the technical details. They know they feel exhausted and their work/life balance is a disaster and don't want it getting worse.

One of the doctors featured prominently in the anti-strike side has a business offering consulting and strategy services. I guess he feels he is more likely to be hired by the DH and Trusts than by the BMA. 

The debate is much more detailed on some medical websites which are accessible by doctors only. It is quite striking how strong feelings are across the profession including GPs and Consultants. There has been a growing exodus of juniors to Oz and Canads in recent years and early reports on application numbers for August suggest this could get a lot worse, and then staffing A&E and other jobs becomes impossible. I said in a previous post this was an existential crisis and was mocked for it. Let's revisit that question in August and beyond.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I haven't heard Sky News on pay, but the Department of Health doesn't claim 75% will be better off. In fact, pay protection steps have to be put in to prevent large drops in pay for many.
		
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Yup I was moved to 'pay protection' which resulted in a 5k pay drop. Yes I work for the NHS and in the last two years I've lost 5k off my pay purely down to 'changes'. 

I'm afraid it's now time for the doctors to take their turn. 7 day working is prevalent everywhere without any mark-up in pay. I know doctors have to work hard but I know a lot of people who work just as hard 7 days a week for nowhere near the figures you keep quoting. Suck it up...


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 26, 2016)

All I know is that when my mother was in hospital 3 months ago, she needed some extra things to help ease her bed sore pains, but because it was a Sunday pm, the stores were closed and she had to wait until 9 am on Monday. How is that 21st Century health care? It's about time our hospitals worked 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week with all staff (obviously more of them) doing shift patterns. You never know, waiting lists might actually drop as a result.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

HowlingGale said:



			Yup I was moved to 'pay protection' which resulted in a 5k pay drop. Yes I work for the NHS and in the last two years I've lost 5k off my pay purely down to 'changes'. 

I'm afraid it's now time for the doctors to take their turn. 7 day working is prevalent everywhere without any mark-up in pay. I know doctors have to work hard but I know a lot of people who work just as hard 7 days a week for nowhere near the figures you keep quoting. Suck it up...
		
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Yep, good point, everyone should race to the bottom.
In fact, i know people who work on minimum wage. Therefore you don't mind if everyone does, correct?


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## Kellfire (Apr 26, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			All I know is that when my mother was in hospital 3 months ago, she needed some extra things to help ease her bed sore pains, but because it was a Sunday pm, the stores were closed and she had to wait until 9 am on Monday. How is that 21st Century health care? It's about time our hospitals worked 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week with all staff (obviously more of them) doing shift patterns. You never know, waiting lists might actually drop as a result.
		
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Where do we find these staff and what do we pay them with?


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 26, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			Where do we find these staff and what do we pay them with?
		
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To start with you could ban all new doctors and consultants from anything other than NHS work for 10 years or so after qualifying. Nothing is worse than being told by a consultant that you wil go on a waiting list which will be about 6 months but he could do it privately next thursday.
If we have money to give to India and China as aid, we can afford more nurses  etc.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			To start with you could ban all new doctors and consultants from anything other than NHS work for 10 years or so after qualifying. Nothing is worse than being told by a consultant that you wil go on a waiting list which will be about 6 months but he could do it privately next thursday.
If we have money to give to India and China as aid, we can afford more nurses  etc.
		
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So the private healthcare industries stops working, and stops paying the NHS money for all of the services/staff they use....

Also, money to India and China has absolutely nothing to do with the NHS


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## Berger (Apr 26, 2016)

Ethan said:



			There have been many junior doctors interviewed on all sorts of programmes. I have only seen a few of them. Most are just everyday regular doctors and not involved with the negotiations and not proficient in the technical details. They know they feel exhausted and their work/life balance is a disaster and don't want it getting worse.

One of the doctors featured prominently in the anti-strike side has a business offering consulting and strategy services. I guess he feels he is more likely to be hired by the DH and Trusts than by the BMA. 

The debate is much more detailed on some medical websites which are accessible by doctors only. It is quite striking how strong feelings are across the profession including GPs and Consultants. *There has been a growing exodus of juniors to Oz and Canads in recent years and early reports on application numbers for August suggest this could get a lot worse, and then staffing A&E and other jobs becomes impossible*. I said in a previous post this was an existential crisis and was mocked for it. Let's revisit that question in August and beyond.
		
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But surely the government are doing all in their power to keep doctors happy to stop them leaving the UK?! Oh wait, I think I've got doctors mixed up with bankers.

Who cares if the people who help save lives are being run into the ground?!


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			Where do we find these staff and what do we pay them with?
		
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Is it ok for someone to suffer or should a hospital be truly able to deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients? Note, I didn't advocate 24/7 for outpatient appointments.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Is it ok for someone to suffer or should a hospital be truly able to deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients? Note, I didn't advocate 24/7 for outpatient appointments.
		
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When does a hospital not deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients?


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			When does a hospital not deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients?
		
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When an inpatient needs something that the stores have, but the stores are shut because it's the weekend.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So the private healthcare industries stops working, and stops paying the NHS money for all of the services/staff they use....

Also, money to India and China has absolutely nothing to do with the NHS
		
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Why should private healthcare use NHS staff?
If China and India can afford space programs and the like, they don't need our aid we give them..so we would have more money to then spend on our NHS.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Yep, good point, everyone should race to the bottom.
In fact, i know people who work on minimum wage. Therefore you don't mind if everyone does, correct?
		
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Where have you been for the last 8 years? The NHS has been crippled because of overspending. I know lots of people who have taken a hit in pay. Private and public sector.

Live in the real world. The one where we must make sacrifices in order to continue our way of life.


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			When does a hospital not deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients?
		
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I was answering/asking Mark. Read it in context of what BM posted and Kellfire's response. And having worked for and with the NHS for over 25yrs I have a pretty good idea of their operational prowess.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			When an inpatient needs something that the stores have, but the stores are shut because it's the weekend.
		
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Never would anything a patient needs urgently, not be provided to them at any point. Day or night, weekend or not.



Bunkermagnet said:



			Why should private healthcare use NHS staff?
If China and India can afford space programs and the like, they don't need our aid we give them..so we would have more money to then spend on our NHS.
		
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 Private healthcare use NHS staff, because they pay the NHS for it. Meaning there is more money in the system for those not paying for private. 




HowlingGale said:



			Where have you been for the last 8 years? The NHS has been crippled because of overspending. I know lots of people who have taken a hit in pay. Private and public sector.

Live in the real world. The one where we must make sacrifices in order to continue our way of life.
		
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Live in the real world? I like to think I do, being involved with healthcare on both a professional and personal level (and no I'm not a dr). I am yet to see a good reason for cutting doctors pay. (i wish people would agree, half the people are saying dr's wont lose pay!). 

How does making doctors work longer, and more unsafe hours = a good thing? Jeremy Hunt already said the cost of dr's won't decrease, so that doesn't impact your "need to save money" point. All it is is stretching an already thin resource, even thinner.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I was answering/asking Mark. Read it in context of what BM posted and Kellfire's response. And having worked for and with the NHS for over 25yrs I have a pretty good idea of their operational prowess.
		
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I do appreciate your experience, and ca'nt argue with your experiences. I just question how "standard" it would be not to give this 24/7 care. I know a lot of nurses, and they would massively disagree with that.


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## palindromicbob (Apr 26, 2016)

Big focus on physical health care when people talk about privatisation.  

If you think mental health care is bad now then just watch what happens when it's privatised.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 26, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Never would anything a patient needs urgently, not be provided to them at any point. Day or night, weekend or not.


 Private healthcare use NHS staff, because they pay the NHS for it. Meaning there is more money in the system for those not paying for private. 
.
		
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So if what you say is true, was my mother left to wait until 9 am Monday, for something she needed badly, when the stores would be opened again?

If NHS weren't working for the private sector the NHS wouldnt have to pay over the top agency staff to cover.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 27, 2016)

Live in the real world? I like to think I do, being involved with healthcare on both a professional and personal level (and no I'm not a dr). I am yet to see a good reason for cutting doctors pay. (i wish people would agree, half the people are saying dr's wont lose pay!). 

How does making doctors work longer, and more unsafe hours = a good thing? Jeremy Hunt already said the cost of dr's won't decrease, so that doesn't impact your "need to save money" point. All it is is stretching an already thin resource, even thinner.[/QUOTE]

That's good. So you'll have extensive knowledge of the realignment of T's & C's that were imposed on all other staff that the doctors were immune to. This resulted in pay cuts for many.

You'll also be acutely aware of the underfuning crisis which means vacancies are not being filled. Gues who picks up that slack. Yep, you've guessed it, the staff (not doctors) that are being paid less. 

So we're working more hours for less pay but we don't have a nice new fluffy contact and accompanying pay rise.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 27, 2016)

HowlingGale said:



			Live in the real world? I like to think I do, being involved with healthcare on both a professional and personal level (and no I'm not a dr). I am yet to see a good reason for cutting doctors pay. (i wish people would agree, half the people are saying dr's wont lose pay!). 

How does making doctors work longer, and more unsafe hours = a good thing? Jeremy Hunt already said the cost of dr's won't decrease, so that doesn't impact your "need to save money" point. All it is is stretching an already thin resource, even thinner.
		
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That's good. So you'll have extensive knowledge of the realignment of T's & C's that were imposed on all other staff that the doctors were immune to. This resulted in pay cuts for many.

You'll also be acutely aware of the underfuning crisis which means vacancies are not being filled. Gues who picks up that slack. Yep, you've guessed it, the staff (not doctors) that are being paid less. 

So we're working more hours for less pay but we don't have a nice new fluffy contact and accompanying pay rise.[/QUOTE]

My mate got hypothetically punched on a night out the other week. I guess I can't complain if anyone punches me now then.

You're completely confounding a race to the bottom. And so far your only argument for not supporting the doctors is that you suffered a pay cut, ergo they should to. 

Any thoughts on the safety element of this whole argument?


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## bluewolf (Apr 27, 2016)

Looks like some are drinking the "We're all in this together" Kool Aid a bit too eagerly... Some bitter, bitter people about...


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## HowlingGale (Apr 27, 2016)

[Any thoughts on the safety element of this whole argument?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. They'll be rotad on the weekends they're meant to be working with days off to compensate. Don't ne fooled by the safety thing. Doctors work long hours just now. They'll just ne doing it more at weekends for a bit less pay.

And if you think a starting salary of 25k (quickly rising to 30k) for a 22-23 year old is a race to the bottom you have a very good life.

BTW I'm not bitter just trying to provide a bit of balance to the argument as i see what goes on daily.


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## Kellfire (Apr 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Is it ok for someone to suffer or should a hospital be truly able to deliver 24/7 care to those who are inpatients? Note, I didn't advocate 24/7 for outpatient appointments.
		
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It is ok to suffer? Obviously not, it would be fantastic to have full staffing availability 24/7/52 but we don't have the finances or the available personnel to make that happen at present.

I've been in the NHS for seven years now and was in a department that looked into the privatisation route back in 2011. At that time, I wasn't massively against it and I'm not now either. At the moment the NHS is still learning how to manage its finances like a private business after previously being a bit of a cash cow.

It might get there on its own, it might take going fully private to get the finances in order... or maybe it never will, maybe we simply don't have the resources to fund the NHS as we all know it.

I don't have the answers but I know blanket statements like "sack managers, hire nurses and doctors" don't help anyone.


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## MarkE (Apr 27, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Really. What are these perks?
		
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I'd call extra unsocial pay after 7pm weekdays a perk that's not available in any other industry. Same for working Saturdays.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Shortly followed by nurses, I imagine!

I can't believe all the people commenting on this who haven't read up on any it beyond paper headlines. I've looked into it, nowhere near enough to comment in detail, but it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Ethan has said it better than I ever will, but even as a "true blue", this is not good.
		
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As said above - nowhere in my wife's contract does it say she'll work a day a week on the ward filling a band 2 role.  It says she's expected to be flexible from time to time - but nothing about working on the ward as a permanent aspect of her job.  So a change in her contract coming?  They might try - but she'll leave.


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## bluewolf (Apr 27, 2016)

HowlingGale said:



			And if you think a starting salary of 25k (quickly rising to 30k) for a 22-23 year old is a race to the bottom you have a very good life.
		
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I was earning more than that at 22/23 and I had no formal qualifications beyond 6th form, I worked 37.5 hrs per week (all on days), and I wasn't responsible for keeping someone alive when every other factor said they should be dead...

 I have zero issue with Doctor's wages.. In fact, when my wife told me how much they earned, I was shocked at how low it was for the job they did..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			I was earning more than that at 22/23 and I had no formal qualifications beyond 6th form, I worked 37.5 hrs per week (all on days), and I wasn't responsible for keeping someone alive when every other factor said they should be dead...

 I have zero issue with Doctor's wages.. In fact, when my wife told me how much they earned, I was shocked at how low it was for the job they did..
		
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I too was shocked at how low their salary is.  And I also never realised how much a misnomer 'Junior' is - when in fact many are anything _but _junior.  Junior Doctors basically being all doctors not consultants - so including registrars (registrars doing many of the operations)

Â£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.


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## bluewolf (Apr 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I too was shocked at how low their salary is.  And I also never realised how much a misnomer 'Junior' is - when in fact many are anything _but _junior.  Junior Doctors basically being all doctors not consultants - so including registrars (registrars doing many of the operations)

Â£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.
		
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About 11 years ago, my boy was taken into hospital with heart problems.. The Senior House Officer on at the time stayed with him all night, before transferring him to Pendlebury Hospital..

 I spoke to him at length that night. He gave up his chance of some sleep to stay with me and wifey whilst monitoring my Son's heart.. He'd been on shift for over 30 hours, and hadn't eaten for over 15 hours.. The fact that I was earning more per year at that time still sticks with me now.. Doctor's, Nurses, NHS staff in general deserve to be treated better than this...


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## MendieGK (Apr 27, 2016)

I dont know enough about the whole subject to comment and its clear everyone has vastly different views. 

One question though - 

Why would you 'sign up' to become a doctor? 

Obviously there would be major issues if people didnt and i am forever grateful they do, but you can see the Sh!t you're going into - long hours, poor conditions, poor (relatively) pay so why would you do it? 

as a comparable, I'd love to turn pro and become a coach, but know the money fairly bad, so i dont? 

Genuine question - no agenda at all


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## HowlingGale (Apr 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Â£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.
		
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For a fresh-faced youngster with no experience? It's a good wage. They are intelligent there's no disputing that fact.

However I know equally intelligent people with a degree who didn't have a hope in hell of getting that straight out of uni.

That amount is for just one year. It goes up very, very quickly. More so than any others within the NHS. They are more than recompensed for their hard work.


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## Ethan (Apr 27, 2016)

MendieGK said:



			I dont know enough about the whole subject to comment and its clear everyone has vastly different views. 

One question though - 

Why would you 'sign up' to become a doctor? 

Obviously there would be major issues if people didnt and i am forever grateful they do, but you can see the Sh!t you're going into - long hours, poor conditions, poor (relatively) pay so why would you do it? 

as a comparable, I'd love to turn pro and become a coach, but know the money fairly bad, so i dont? 

Genuine question - no agenda at all
		
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Different reasons. Like science, like people, medical family, driven to get into best course for your grades. It is not easy to envisage as a A level student what a working life will look like a decade later. Medical School takes 5 years, and the initial training positions a few more. People who are just now completing their Foundation Years after graduating started medical school when things were rather different. Doctors towards the end of speciality training entered when it was very different. Almost all doctors dislike the new emphasis on pretending the NHS is run like a business, which distorts clinical practice, puts loads of useless bureaucracy and targets in the way.

It was always a long hours job, but work intensity has increased as hours have slowly fallen, and pay used to be relatively better. Pay hasn't kept up with inflation and the cost of pension contributions has risen as the value of the pension paid has fallen. 

Conditions are better in Oz, NZ and Canada so a lot of junior doctors are voting with their feet.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I too was shocked at how low their salary is.  And I also never realised how much a misnomer 'Junior' is - when in fact many are anything _but _junior.  Junior Doctors basically being all doctors not consultants - so including registrars (registrars doing many of the operations)

Â£25k at 22/23 is, in today's world, nothing to at all write home about for someone who is really bright and wants to do the job for what it is - not for what it pays.
		
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Fully agree with this.  A London Bus driver earns 25k.  A newly qualified tube driver earns nearly 50k a year.  I know which one of the three I need most and which I value highest.



bluewolf said:



			I was earning more than that at 22/23 and I had no formal qualifications beyond 6th form, I worked 37.5 hrs per week (all on days), and I wasn't responsible for keeping someone alive when every other factor said they should be dead...

 I have zero issue with Doctor's wages.. In fact, when my wife told me how much they earned, *I was shocked at how low it was for the job they did..*

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Likewise, considering the responsibility on their shoulders.  There are people I work with at a local authority earning more at a younger age without half the responsibility or any anti social hours.



HowlingGale said:



			For a fresh-faced youngster with no experience? It's a good wage. They are intelligent there's no disputing that fact.

However I know equally intelligent people with a degree who didn't have a hope in hell of getting that straight out of uni.

That amount is for just one year. It goes up very, very quickly. More so than any others within the NHS. *They are more than recompensed for their hard work.*

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Ease up on the bitterness fella, you'll give yourself a heart attack.  Mind you, if you do I can personally testify that you will be in very good hands, so if they earn that bit more for saving lives (as they did mine), please understand why I'm in the camp that doesn't begrudge them a penny, unlike some other trades & professions who are grossly overpaid in my opinion.

And if you think that cash alone is sufficient compensation for extended hours and shift working, maybe you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 27, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Ease up on the bitterness fella, you'll give yourself a heart attack.  Mind you, if you do I can personally testify that you will be in very good hands, so if they earn that bit more for saving lives (as they did mine), please understand why I'm in the camp that doesn't begrudge them a penny, unlike some other trades & professions who are grossly overpaid in my opinion.

And if you think that cash alone is sufficient compensation for extended hours and shift working, maybe you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
		
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Perfectly at ease thanks. No chance of a heart attack and no bitterness whatsoever. I know exactly the job they do. I see it daily. I'm not saying they don't deserve it.

What I'm saying is that in a time when there are massive spending cuts within the NHS the doctors have been more or less immune. Most other staff have been given cuts in pay, more work etc. They have squeezed other staff to breaking point.

Do they deserve a lot more than they get? Yes they do.

Do they deserve to remain on the level playing field they are currently on whilst everyone around them, supporting them are being shafted? Absolutely not.

Don't be fooled. Any changes to anything in the NHS is about saving money. The whole thing is at breaking point. Something needs to give. This time it's the doctors. Next time it'll be the rest of the staff.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2016)

Having looked at the pay scales and pension contribution rates on the BMA website it appears that the doctors' package compares reasonably well with others such as teachers and from the starting point increases quite quickly.

Still not a fortune, however, and more concerning I would say are the hours that they can be expected to fulfil.

Many of the decisions they may have to make are of the "life or death" variety and yet they can be on call for periods that we would never tolerate for pilots, train & bus drivers and many others.

It is that area rather than pay that I think society has got its priorities mixed up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2016)

One thing not mentioned much are the sacrifices, hassle and cost that junior doctors having to go through to climb the professional ladder.  Moving from hospital to hospital to gain the experience - maybe only a short time at each post before moving to the next; living away from home and all the costs associated with that; the long distances many doctors travel from home to place of work - if you can live at home - and the very ling days that result; the costs of all the exams; loss of family life. and so on.  

The life of a junior doctor gaining experience they must gain to progress through promotions is not like most professions.  In my line of work (IT Project Management) there is no need for an ambitious graduate to move company or location as he works his way up.  He can live in the same town and work for the same company all his life from graduate to the very top.  It's really just not like that for doctors.


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## Foxholer (Apr 27, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I'd call extra unsocial pay after 7pm weekdays a perk that's not available in any other industry. Same for working Saturdays.
		
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It's only a 'perk' if it's optional!

If it's compulsory, it's 'compensation'!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One thing not mentioned much are the sacrifices, hassle and cost that junior doctors having to go through to climb the professional ladder.  Moving from hospital to hospital to gain the experience - maybe only a short time at each post before moving to the next; living away from home and all the costs associated with that; the long distances many doctors travel from home to place of work - if you can live at home - and the very ling days that result; the costs of all the exams; loss of family life. and so on.  

The life of a junior doctor gaining experience they must gain to progress through promotions is not like most professions.  In my line of work (IT Project Management) there is no need for an ambitious graduate to move company or location as he works his way up.  He can live in the same town and work for the same company all his life from graduate to the very top.  It's really just not like that for doctors.
		
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Much of what you list can be equally true for many other professions and your own experience would seem more unusual.

As stated I have grave concerns about the demands placed upon doctors but I don't believe their cause is helped by seeking sympathy for them where it isn't really justified.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One thing not mentioned much are the sacrifices, hassle and cost that junior doctors having to go through to climb the professional ladder.  Moving from hospital to hospital to gain the experience - maybe only a short time at each post before moving to the next; living away from home and all the costs associated with that; the long distances many doctors travel from home to place of work - if you can live at home - and the very ling days that result; the costs of all the exams; loss of family life. and so on.  

The life of a junior doctor gaining experience they must gain to progress through promotions is not like most professions.  In my line of work (IT Project Management) there is no need for an ambitious graduate to move company or location as he works his way up.  He can live in the same town and work for the same company all his life from graduate to the very top.  It's really just not like that for doctors.
		
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Is there anyone who suggests Doctors, junior or otherwise are not hard working, do a demanding and highly skilled job and are worth a good job package?

Something I don't like about this dispute is much of the rhetoric thats getting thrown around.  "Save our NHS"  they keep chanting, whats that all about, this dispute isn't about 'saving' their NHS, is it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Much of what you list can be equally true for many other professions and your own experience would seem more unusual.

As stated I have grave concerns about the demands placed upon doctors but I don't believe their cause is helped by seeking sympathy for them where it isn't really justified.
		
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I don't think that many professionals *must *move around work places around the country to gain the experience they need to climb the ladder.  Many of us *choose* to move to develop and progress our career - but we can still choose to remain in the same locality - so the imperative is not quite the same.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One thing not mentioned much are the sacrifices, hassle and cost that junior doctors having to go through to climb the professional ladder.  Moving from hospital to hospital to gain the experience - maybe only a short time at each post before moving to the next; living away from home and all the costs associated with that; the long distances many doctors travel from home to place of work - if you can live at home - and the very ling days that result; the costs of all the exams; loss of family life. and so on.  

The life of a junior doctor gaining experience they must gain to progress through promotions is not like most professions.  In my line of work (IT Project Management) there is no need for an ambitious graduate to move company or location as he works his way up.  He can live in the same town and work for the same company all his life from graduate to the very top.  It's really just not like that for doctors.
		
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A massive wage increase, absolutely! But sympathy for the above, no not at all. Do they really go into it with their eyes closed? These are bright kids that choose the profession. Do you think they don't know what's just around the corner? Are they bonded serfs?

I think the hours they do, on the deal they are on, is unhealthy and unfair but they have a choice. And it's a choice they've accepted and made.


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## MarkE (Apr 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It's only a 'perk' if it's optional!

If it's compulsory, it's 'compensation'!
		
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Alright, if you want to be pedantic, let's call it compensation. This 'compensation' is still not forthcoming in other walks of life. Teachers for example get a salary. No enhancements for the work they do out of work hours.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2016)

I never thought I would witness the day where Doctors who all my life I have considered as professional people standing on Picket Lines with placards and chanting their cause.   They may well believe they need to negotiate their contracts but to act in the manner they are is a disgrace to the profession.

Hoot if you agree


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## Ethan (Apr 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A massive wage increase, absolutely! But sympathy for the above, no not at all. Do they really go into it with their eyes closed? These are bright kids that choose the profession. Do you think they don't know what's just around the corner? Are they bonded serfs?

I think the hours they do, on the deal they are on, is unhealthy and unfair but they have a choice. And it's a choice they've accepted and made.
		
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By the same reasoning a soldier who joins the Army voluntarily and gets shot while on duty in a war zone only has himself to blame. Is that your view?


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## Ethan (Apr 28, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Alright, if you want to be pedantic, let's call it compensation. This 'compensation' is still not forthcoming in other walks of life. Teachers for example get a salary. No enhancements for the work they do out of work hours.
		
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I didn't know teachers were rostered to do 30 to 50 hours of overtime including nights, weekends, high days and holidays. 

Next time you call out an electrician or plumber on call for an emergency be sure to explain your compensation philosophy to him before he starts work. Then you might meet a junior doctor for removal of the wrench.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2016)

Ethan said:



			By the same reasoning a soldier who joins the Army voluntarily and gets shot while on duty in a war zone only has himself to blame. Is that your view?
		
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I think you are stretching my post to make it something it isn't. A doctor isn't to blame, just as the soldier isn't. Both made a life choice. Both know the potential consequences of their respective choices. Equally, they could have chosen a different path.

Are you suggesting I should weep and wail and tear my clothing because a JD has freely chosen a career that includes long hours?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Are you suggesting I should weep and wail and tear my clothing because a Soldier has freely chosen a career that includes long hours?
		
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Yes please, Union Street is where you can do it for me&#128515; Or buy me beer&#128515;


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes please, Union Street is where you can do it for me&#62979; Or buy me beer&#62979;
		
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For you Paulie, you can have both... kisses xxx


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			For you Paulie, you can have both... kisses xxx
		
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See you soon sweetie x do you need anything bringing up?


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## rosecott (Apr 28, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes please, Union Street is where you can do it for me&#62979; Or buy me beer&#62979;
		
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Hobbit said:



			For you Paulie, you can have both... kisses xxx
		
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pauldj42 said:



			See you soon sweetie x do you need anything bringing up?
		
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I'm bringing up my breakfast.


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## Ethan (Apr 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I think you are stretching my post to make it something it isn't. A doctor isn't to blame, just as the soldier isn't. Both made a life choice. Both know the potential consequences of their respective choices. Equally, they could have chosen a different path.

Are you suggesting I should weep and wail and tear my clothing because a JD has freely chosen a career that includes long hours?
		
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No, I am suggesting that you understand how the NHS that you use works, and consider that next time you or a relative are in for a life saving procedure, you should care if the staff looking after you or them is sufficiently rested and or de-stressed to do their best. Other than that, you can give as many or few tosses as you like.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2016)

Ethan said:



			No, I am suggesting that you understand how the NHS that you use works, and consider whether next time you or a relative are in for a life saving procedure, whether the staff looking after you or them is sufficiently rested and or de-stressed to do their best. Other than that, you can give as many or few tosses as you like.
		
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Can I refer you back to post 110, in which you quote my post but seem to have completely ignored the second paragraph. It would appear I think the Ts&Cs are "unhealthy and unfair."

As to understanding how the NHS works, I've so enjoyed being blissfully asleep in the resies only for the phone to go.


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## Crazyface (Apr 28, 2016)

To be brutally honest, who's actually seen a doctor senior or otherwise do any actual work? All they seem to do is fill in forms, talk sympathetically to patients, tell nurses what to do. I am being honest here. I've spent a lot of time in hospitals with my son, wife, wifes mum and the doctors do sweet fanny adams, whilst the nurses and such run about despensing pills, injecting stuff, taking blood...the actual work.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			To be brutally honest, who's actually seen a doctor senior or otherwise do any actual work? All they seem to do is fill in forms, talk sympathetically to patients, tell nurses what to do. I am being honest here. I've spent a lot of time in hospitals with my son, wife, wifes mum and the doctors do sweet fanny adams, whilst the nurses and such run about despensing pills, injecting stuff, taking blood...the actual work.
		
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Troll alert, Troll alert!

I've had the pleasure of working with some truly great Docs. And there are some truly fantastic, clinically adept nurses. There's the odd numpty, but it would appear that they are in all walks of life.


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## Ethan (Apr 28, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			To be *brutally honest*, who's actually seen a doctor senior or otherwise do any actual work? All they seem to do is fill in forms, talk sympathetically to patients, tell nurses what to do. I am being honest here. I've spent a lot of time in hospitals with my son, wife, wifes mum and the doctors do sweet fanny adams, whilst the nurses and such run about despensing pills, injecting stuff, taking blood...the actual work.
		
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Brutally stupid, more like.


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## Ethan (Apr 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Can I refer you back to post 110, in which you quote my post but seem to have completely ignored the second paragraph. It would appear I think the Ts&Cs are "unhealthy and unfair."

As to understanding how the NHS works, I've so enjoyed being blissfully asleep in the resies only for the phone to go.
		
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In that case, don't make a post asking if you should weep and wail etc. 

My point was that even if you don't give a toss for the doctors who work long hours, you should be concerned about the care they are able to give you as a result of those long hours. 

And when I read your utterances, I don't go back and check the entire body of work that forms the collected wisdom of hobbit.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2016)

Ethan said:



			In that case, don't make a post asking if you should weep and wail etc. 

My point was that even if you don't give a toss for the doctors who work long hours, you should be concerned about the care they are able to give you as a result of those long hours. 

And when I read your utterances, I don't go back and check the entire body of work that forms the collected wisdom of hobbit.
		
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What part of unhealthy and unfair don't you understand? 

If that's what I posted it clearly suggests I do care about what they work but, as I said, they chose it.

Maybe you should read ALL of a post before you utter drivel. You might just find someone actually agrees with you............................. for a change


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			What part of unhealthy and unfair don't you understand? 

If that's what I posted it clearly suggests I do care about what they work but, as I said, they chose it.

Maybe you should read ALL of a post before you utter drivel. You might just find someone actually agrees with you............................. for a change
		
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They might have chosen the profession - they did not choose to work stretched and extended hours that results in them being so knackered and demoralised that the well-being of patients is put at risk.  

A few here seem to be saying they doctors should just 'suck it up' and get on with the job - it's what they signed up to when becoming doctors and they get paid pretty well for it.  Well that is fine - except that unlike most other jobs - if they don't do their job properly, or make mistakes through tiredness - people can die.  Do they turn to us and say "well - it's what you voted for dear public - it was in the Tory manifesto - you are just going to have to 'suck _*that*_ up'?"


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## DCB (Apr 28, 2016)

Some incredible reading on this thread. Granted, I'm up here North of the border and our system is devolved and not going through quite the same traumas as the NHS down South, however, I've seen at first hand what our Doctors do for us. I had a fairly innocuous accident that resulted in a rather serious outcome. I have nothing but praise for the Doctors who worked out what was happening to me and who worked out what needed to be done. I saw them at all stages of my hospitalisation, A&E, Surgical team, Intensive Care, High Dependency, Neuro Ward, ReHab specialists. They all work within a failing system, but, they all, without exception, cared for the outcome of their patient. Without them I'd not be typing this today.


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## daverollo (Apr 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They might have chosen the profession - they did not choose to work stretched and extended hours that results in them being so knackered and demoralised that the well-being of patients is put at risk.  

A few here seem to be saying they doctors should just 'suck it up' and get on with the job - it's what they signed up to when becoming doctors and they get paid pretty well for it.  Well that is fine - except that unlike most other jobs - if they don't do their job properly, or make mistakes through tiredness - people can die.  Do they turn to us and say "well - it's what you voted for dear public - it was in the Tory manifesto - you are just going to have to 'suck _*that*_ up'?"
		
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But one of the main features on the governments proposal is to reduce the amount of hours a Junior Doctor can work over a set period of time. Therefore ensuring they get more rest and don't work excessively.  The point being it should improve patient safety.

Currently a Junior Doctor can sign up and do 91 hours in a week, surely far too much to be making life threatening decisions accurately.  The proposal is that a cap of 72 hours in any one week will be the absolute maximum they can work, along with other safeguards, such as:
- Not allowed to work more than 4 night shifts in a row or 5 long day shifts.
- Employers banned from scheduling any shifts over 13 hours
- Maximum 7 days or nights on call in a row

But the crux of it surely is the part which states:
The removal of the financial incentives in the current contract that encourage doctors to work unsafe hours.

Now I have no idea what the main motives are from the government to wanting to introduce a new contract when in the long run it won't reduce the wage bill.  With the proposed increases in core basic pay it will mean an increased pension liability to the rest of the nation who work in the private sector in the future.

But just looking at the above and the reduction in maximum hours a junior doctor will be allowed to work, surely this whole dispute is about pay?

The government really have made a hash of the negotiations, because from what is on offer surely it will improve patient safety?


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## Ethan (Apr 28, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			What part of unhealthy and unfair don't you understand? 

If that's what I posted it clearly suggests I do care about what they work but, as I said, they chose it.

Maybe you should read ALL of a post before you utter drivel. You might just find someone actually agrees with you............................. for a change
		
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I understand both parts of it, and do read all of a post, but if you are accusing me of selectively responding to only parts of a post, well, Mr Pot, say hi to Mr Kettle.


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## Ethan (Apr 28, 2016)

daverollo said:



			But one of the main features on the governments proposal is to reduce the amount of hours a Junior Doctor can work over a set period of time. Therefore ensuring they get more rest and don't work excessively.  The point being it should improve patient safety.

Currently a Junior Doctor can sign up and do 91 hours in a week, surely far too much to be making life threatening decisions accurately.  The proposal is that a cap of 72 hours in any one week will be the absolute maximum they can work, along with other safeguards, such as:
- Not allowed to work more than 4 night shifts in a row or 5 long day shifts.
- Employers banned from scheduling any shifts over 13 hours
- Maximum 7 days or nights on call in a row

But the crux of it surely is the part which states:
The removal of the financial incentives in the current contract that encourage doctors to work unsafe hours.

Now I have no idea what the main motives are from the government to wanting to introduce a new contract when in the long run it won't reduce the wage bill.  With the proposed increases in core basic pay it will mean an increased pension liability to the rest of the nation who work in the private sector in the future.

But just looking at the above and the reduction in maximum hours a junior doctor will be allowed to work, surely this whole dispute is about pay?

The government really have made a hash of the negotiations, because from what is on offer surely it will improve patient safety?
		
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It will not improve patient safety. It may make it less safe. The patient safety issue is that currently medical staffing is stretched to its limit, and vacancies are widespread. These vacancies are why the locum/agency issue has become such a big deal. There used to be very few locums and agency staff in medical positions. It is not possible to stretch this staffing even further over 7 days, and it is not necessary because the weekend effect is mostly contrived and what is left is due to case-mix (sicker patients). Further, the reduction in staffing during the week may adversely affect patient safety. 

Few doctors work 91 hours a week. As work intensity has gone up, most juniors work more in the region of 72, but at higher intensity. They often work beyond their rota'd hours, but unpaid. They are often asked at short notice to cover vacant shifts. Their leave is often allocated in advance and The DH have said that 99% of doctors will not earn less, but that is only due to transitional arrangements. They will lose automatic increments though. 

In fact, if some doctors work fewer hours, but the total number of hours needed to be covered stays the same or increases, more doctors will be needed. If the pay envelope is static, then they must on average earn less. 

The BMA was willing to negotiate on the assumption there was no more money available, meaning no average increase. They wanted protection against abuse over hours and rotas and these assurances were not given.

You have hit on the main issue though - what is the Govt's motive if it won't reduce the wage bill? The motive is that Simon Stevens, the NHS England CEO (and former employee of a US HMO) was brought in to help the drive towards privatisation of services, and private employers want more flexible workforces. This is about breaking restrictive working practices.


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## Foxholer (Apr 28, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Alright, if you want to be pedantic, let's call it compensation. This 'compensation' is still not forthcoming in other walks of life. Teachers for example get a salary.* No enhancements for the work they do out of work hours.*

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Agreed! That's one of the reasons they have invoked industrial action in the past! To me, it's another example of government taking advantage of the 'good nature' of those in a particular industry in order to keep costs down. The compensation is, relatively, reasonable at higher grades, but the lower levels get hammered - not unlike the 'Junior' Doctors!


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## daverollo (Apr 28, 2016)

Ethan said:



			In fact, if some doctors work fewer hours, but the total number of hours needed to be covered stays the same or increases, more doctors will be needed. If the pay envelope is static, then they must on average earn less.
		
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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to grasp the idea that if you go from a 5 day a week service (for operations etc) to a 7 day a week service that you will need more Doctors.  Absolutely a pointless exercise if all they intend to do is the same amount of operations/treatments but spread them over 7 days instead of 5.  That's not increasing capacity or reducing waiting times in my mind.

I am not grasping the privatisation part though.  Are you suggesting that patients will be sent down the road to a BUPA (or similar) hospital to have some routine operations carried out at a cost to the NHS?  That would be completely counter productive if it will cost the tax payer more to do that. If however, it saves the tax payer money then what is the problem?

I have a lot of clients on my books who are medical professionals, quite a few who mix their time between NHS and private work.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2016)

Privatisation _may _save money - but do you get the same service delivered with the same ethos by equally qualified and committed staff?  That's the problem.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Privatisation _may _save money - but do you get the same service delivered with the same ethos by equally qualified and committed staff?  That's the problem.
		
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Surely many of the Surgeons, Doctors, Nurses are ones that were trained  in the NHS and some probably work in the NHS as well.  Why should the ethos, service or commitment be any different?   My experience of Private Health supply is that it is very good.


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## MarkE (Apr 28, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I didn't know teachers were rostered to do 30 to 50 hours of overtime including nights, weekends, high days and holidays. 

Next time you call out an electrician or plumber on call for an emergency be sure to explain your compensation philosophy to him before he starts work. Then you might meet a junior doctor for removal of the wrench.
		
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Yep. My daughter is a teacher and has to work all of those within her contract. Impossible to do everything in her 38 hours contracted. She knew this when she went into teaching, as do the junior doctors.
Fail to see what a leaky tap has to do with anything.


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## drdel (Apr 28, 2016)

The medics I know work so hard for the NHS and are so tired, but still somehow manage to do private work in cosmetic clinics and private hospitals.

I guess one of the gripes might be that by putting a structure and process around their NHS contracts might impinge on these, their second jobs sometimes using the NHS hospital's kit !!


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## Kellfire (Apr 29, 2016)

daverollo said:



			Are you suggesting that patients will be sent down the road to a BUPA (or similar) hospital to have some routine operations carried out at a cost to the NHS?
		
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This already happens routinely. It costs less to send them private and pick up that cost than the fines that would be imposed if they breached waiting times.


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

I see our government chose the day the chilcott report came out to announce they were imposing the contract on junior doctors, despite them voting against it.

There's nothing like a good day to bury bad news for our dysfunctional administration.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I see our government chose the day the chilcott report came out to announce they were imposing the contract on junior doctors, despite them voting against it.

There's nothing like a good day to bury bad news for our dysfunctional administration.
		
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I am no apologist for Jeremy Hunt but I cannot see what option the Government now has. 

Those chosen by the junior doctors to negotiate on their behalf accepted the revised terms but apparently those negotiators did not have the authority to make that decision.

Just who, therefore, are the DoH to deal with?


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I am no apologist for Jeremy Hunt but I cannot see what option the Government now has. 

Those chosen by the junior doctors to negotiate on their behalf accepted the revised terms but apparently those negotiators did not have the authority to make that decision.

Just who, therefore, are the DoH to deal with?
		
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My point is they chose to sneak the news out yesterday rather than actually deal with the ensuing bad publicity.

On the broader issue, they need to negotiate a deal that can pass a vote of those affected. It's certainly unfortunate that the doctor's negotiating team haven't adequately represented their members' views.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 7, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			My point is they chose to sneak the news out yesterday rather than actually deal with the ensuing bad publicity.

On the broader issue, they need to negotiate a deal that can pass a vote of those affected. It's certainly unfortunate that the doctor's negotiating team haven't adequately represented their members' views.
		
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Not sure that the publicity would be so bad.Much of the public sympathy that the doctors previously enjoyed now seems to have drifted away.

And as for negotiating a deal that might be acceptable, that is my point . How are the DoH to know what might be acceptable if the profession's own representatives don't know?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 7, 2016)

How long do you give people to negotiate? This has been going on for years and the sticking point is the same. There has not been progress for months. As an employer you reach a point where you have to say "this is the deal, like it or lump it". If the junior doctors don't like it then they will have to leave and find work with another employer. That is how the rest of us work.


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And as for negotiating a deal that might be acceptable, that is my point . How are the DoH to know what might be acceptable if the profession's own representatives don't know?
		
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Indeed and they'd be right to be annoyed by it. But reacting to a democratic vote by saying "tough" isn't great is it? Imagine that reaction to other recent votes....


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 7, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How long do you give people to negotiate? This has been going on for years and the sticking point is the same. There has not been progress for months. As an employer you reach a point where you have to say "this is the deal, like it or lump it". If the junior doctors don't like it then they will have to leave and find work with another employer. That is how the rest of us work.
		
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The difference being we, the public, need these doctors, there is already a shortage, and they have plenty of much more appealing opportunities elsewhere. Once again the tories seem to be placing their own ideology ahead of the good of the country.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2016)

Im getting confused on what the Doctors want.  They seem to be suggesting they want to save 'Our NHS'  but don't seem to come out and suggest exactly what they do want.  Is it more Money, is it less hours, is it five day working?  It seems rather odd that they have their representatives recommending they accept the latest offer but they reject it.  Fair enough but what the public want (before their support runs out) is a clear statement of what they actually want other than the confusing messages they display on banners.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Im getting confused on what the Doctors want.  They seem to be suggesting they want to save 'Our NHS'  but don't seem to come out and suggest exactly what they do want.  Is it more Money, is it less hours, is it five day working?  It seems rather odd that they have their representatives recommending they accept the latest offer but they reject it.  Fair enough but what the public want (before their support runs out) is a clear statement of what they actually want other than the confusing messages they display on banners.
		
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After the Referendum debate I never thought I would say this but I completely agree with you on this.

At present it would seem to be akin to dealing with a recalcitrant adolescent; knows what he/she doesn't want but not what he/she does want.

Save Our NHS is an admirable sentiment but how is it to be achieved within available budgets?


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 8, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			After the Referendum debate I never thought I would say this but I completely agree with you on this.

At present it would seem to be akin to dealing with a recalcitrant adolescent; knows what he/she doesn't want but not what he/she does want.

Save Our NHS is an admirable sentiment but how is it to be achieved within available budgets?
		
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Should be a doddle once they get the extra Â£350m a week!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2016)




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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 8, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Should be a doddle once they get the extra Â£350m a week!
		
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I'm not holding my breath!


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## HowlingGale (Jul 9, 2016)

Keep going back to it. The NHS is on it's knees. All other staff have taken a pounding over the last few years and the doctors have remained immune due to a different contract.
The government offered them teacakes toasted. They refused. Then they offered them toasted teacakes. They refused. Sorry but if they don't like it GTF. That's what I need to do if I don't like my contract.

The prestige may have gone from being a doctor nowadays as it doesn't pay enough but I personally know of one from an extremely well to do family (world famous) who sticks it out. That's not for the money. That's for the good of what that they can do without the need of an enhanced contract.


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## Kellfire (Jul 9, 2016)

A quick look on NHS jobs at the going rate for a consultant will soon tell you the job definitely pays enough. Yes they have to earn their way there but so do we all.


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## JD2773 (Jul 10, 2016)

HowlingGale said:



			Keep going back to it. The NHS is on it's knees. All other staff have taken a pounding over the last few years and the doctors have remained immune due to a different contract.
The government offered them teacakes toasted. They refused. Then they offered them toasted teacakes. They refused. Sorry but if they don't like it GTF. That's what I need to do if I don't like my contract.

The prestige may have gone from being a doctor nowadays as it doesn't pay enough but I personally know of one from an extremely well to do family (world famous) who sticks it out. That's not for the money. That's for the good of what that they can do without the need of an enhanced contract.
		
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Yes the NHS is on its knees and is unlikely to continue in its current form unless the public wake up about what is going on and then care enough to do something about it!

I'm not sure I agree with you that doctors have been spared from the pounding other staff in the NHS have received though! Just a small amount of research shows that junior doctors have had to suffer in the same way as other non medical staff.

For example the pay freeze that was actually applied to doctors before it was applied to other front line NHS staff has meant a fall in real term earnings of around Â£7-10k at the foundation level which is when new doctors entering training.

Also perks that existed for junior doctors only a little over 10 years ago have been completely abolished such as free accommodation, free food and drink in the doctors mess, free laundry service etc. 

Against this junior doctors have increasing costs, for example it is now compulsory to belong to a legal defence organisation and pay the applicable fees, you also have the cost of GMC registration, cost of further training such as exams which are required to progress through your training and can run into many thousands of pounds.

Thing that really worries me about your statement though is the "if they don't like it gtf (out)". There is already a huge recruitment and retention crisis for frontline healthcare staff in this country and in particular doctors. Over the last 2 years we have seen numbers of doctors drop by 5000 across the country already. Early evidence suggests that many doctors are doing exactly what you have suggested and are gtf out. Which is great until either you or one of your loved ones ends up needing to be admitted to hospital!


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