# Transgender Swimmer - should she be allowed to compete



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2022)

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.c...-must-not-compete-against-biological-females/


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494665841052459019
A transgender Female is currently breaking all the records in swimming 

It’s a debate that’s been bubbling for a while without it hitting main stream

The current trajectory that Lia is on would see her smash all the female World Records 

So the question is should it be allowed or should they compete with other transgenders ?


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## Old Colner (Feb 21, 2022)

I personally think this perfectly proves the point that it's actually unfair on the other competitors, a full seven seconds clear.


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## Beezerk (Feb 21, 2022)

It’s a big fat no for me, apologies for my bluntness but that’s a man in a woman’s swimming costume.


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## fundy (Feb 21, 2022)




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## pauljames87 (Feb 21, 2022)

I'm sure Elaine poulter would win a few majors


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## Orikoru (Feb 21, 2022)

It's a no from me. I still think it beggars belief that this is allowed to happen in multiple sports. Transgender people should be given every bit of support they need in life, of course, but to let them compete against cisgender female athletes is just patently unfair for biological reasons. It really needs to be looked at. It feels like sports governing bodies are too afraid of offending certain communities to actually do the right thing here.


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## Robster59 (Feb 21, 2022)

No.  This is totally unfair on those who have been born as female.  Have a look at the athletics world records that are still held by Eastern European athletes before more diligent drug testing came in.  
If they want to do something, then set up a separate transgender class.


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## Neilds (Feb 21, 2022)

I think people should be careful about how they answer this question.  Will leave you open to claims of transphobia, sexism, etc and lead to you being cancelled - just refer to JK Rowling


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## Rooter (Feb 21, 2022)

The story has been doing the rounds on my socials timeline for some time. I think the important factors are around the fact they went through puberty as a man, this dictates a lot in terms of muscle, etc for the future. I don't confess to being an expert on the subject, but I am firmly in the not fair on the female from birth athletes, not fair at all. All of the training they have done for years to then get beaten by someone with a massive genetic advantage.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 21, 2022)

Big no for me. Beezerk nailed it for me


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## Beezerk (Feb 21, 2022)

I would love the know his/her genuine reason for becoming transgender. Is it something he wrestled with for years as a boy or is it purely for sporting achievement 🤔


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I would love the know his/her genuine reason for becoming transgender. Is it something he wrestled with for years as a boy or is it purely for sporting achievement 🤔
		
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Now that’s an interesting question

I would suspect that most people go through gender change because of deep feelings they have had for years 

But are we going to get to stage where people look to gender reassign to help with their future - for example a decent male golfer changes gender and then becomes a top female golfer and the riches associated ?


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## Orikoru (Feb 21, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I would love the know his/her genuine reason for becoming transgender. Is it something he wrestled with for years as a boy or is it purely for sporting achievement 🤔
		
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I still find it hard to believe any bloke would have the chop as it were just to win at swimming. That would be seriously extreme.


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## Orikoru (Feb 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Now that’s an interesting question

I would suspect that most people go through gender change because of deep feelings they have had for years

*But are we going to get to stage where people look to gender reassign to help with their future - for example a decent male golfer changes gender and then becomes a top female golfer and the riches associated ?*

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I honestly think you'd have to have a serious mental illness to get reassigned for that reason alone. That would be insane. Although if it did happen, I suppose we would never know for sure if they didn't admit it. I just can't believe that it would happen really.


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## Beezerk (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I still find it hard to believe any bloke would have the chop as it were just to win at swimming. That would be seriously extreme.
		
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Yeah I know, it would be absolutely insane…but some people are…


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## GB72 (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I honestly think you'd have to have a serious mental illness to get reassigned for that reason alone. That would be insane. Although if it did happen, I suppose we would never know for sure if they didn't admit it. I just can't believe that it would happen really.
		
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I guess nothing is out of the question when it comes to the subject of becoming rich and famous. Hell, it even happened in an episode of Futurama 

This will always be a hot topic and once that will only cause hatred and confrontation. The thing is, there is a really simple answer, just add event cataegories for transgender competititors, one for male to female and one for female to male. Works for most olympic type events. Team sports and matters such as golf with separate male and female tours are more of an issue.


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

I doubt that he/she had their surgery just to get an advantage in swimming, but they have clearly gained an enormous advantage. BBC More or Less, which deals with stats and data in the news, did a recent episode and cited good data that shows a significant benefit is carried over in male to female transgender changes in strength and power sports.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 21, 2022)

Return to the 70's and 80's when the East Germans and Russians entered blokes in the female swimming events at the Olympics.

The advantage she has could soon be lost if some unscrupulous Nations decide to go down that doping route again.


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2022)

My cousin's daughter is doing a Sports Degree at Durham and writing a paper about this.  It throws up lots of issues., looking forward to reading it!  There won't be one uniform reason, outcome or answer to this.

Where an event becomes a forgone conclusion, especially due to "non sporting circumstances" people will cease to participate or watch....or sponsor. 

When Tiger was unbeatable, it got the rest of them in the gym, working harder to close the gap.  But, there's little female swimmers could do to catch up in this case. 

The only thing to be damaged will be womens' sport.  

I think were someone genuinely wants to change gender, that's a massive decision, and their call.  I can't even begin to fully understand it.  Would someone do this for the cash and fame only?  Only they'd know that for sure.

I abstain from this vote, I'm not qualified to answer.


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## Rooter (Feb 21, 2022)

The graphic showed 462 in mens swimming Vs 1 in womans. Are these world numbers?

462nd in the world at anything puts you in the top 0.0001% (Or whatever the maths is), the point is, that's blooming good at what you do! He would have trained his balls off (quite literally in this case) to get there, maybe now it's win at all costs?


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## Orikoru (Feb 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I doubt that he/she had their surgery just to get an advantage in swimming, but they have clearly gained an enormous advantage. BBC More or Less, which deals with stats and data in the news, did a recent episode and cited good data that shows a significant benefit is carried over in male to female transgender changes in strength and power sports.
		
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This is the thing - I'm not an expert at all but it just seems so obvious that there would be advantages to having had a male skeleton and muscle density?? Where is the research on this? Is it proving inconclusive or are people scared to do the research in the first place for fear of being called transphobic? We need answers sooner rather than later as the issue is getting bigger all the time. I'm just surprised if nobody is out there trying to prove conclusively if it's fair or not, because otherwise we're just having the same conversation every time a trans boxer, weightlifter or swimmer turns up.


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## fundy (Feb 21, 2022)

Rooter said:



			The graphic showed 462 in mens swimming Vs 1 in womans. Are these world numbers?

462nd in the world at anything puts you in the top 0.0001% (Or whatever the maths is), the point is, that's blooming good at what you do! He would have trained his balls off (quite literally in this case) to get there, maybe now it's win at all costs?
		
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i think theyre us college numbers


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## Carlwm (Feb 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure Elaine poulter would win a few majors
		
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And Amirah Khan might regain a world championship.


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## DanFST (Feb 21, 2022)

Male to female doesn't sit with me. Imagine boxing? 

Female to male I don't see any issue with however.


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## GB72 (Feb 21, 2022)

The point as far as I see it though is that the wider argument is not being based on sporting performance but rather on a person's right to compete as the gender that they define themselves as. Emotive argument but one that does not take into account any form of parity in the world of sport, in fact, those that have competed so far are being put forward as trailblazers for the cause of transgender rights. All well and good until the events that they compete in wither due to lack fo competition and interest. 

This is a question with no correct answer. Everyone should have the right to live and compete as their chosen gender, no issue with that but then the current, born female athletes have a right to compete on a level playing field but is is victimising transgender athletes to put them in a separate category. As I said, no answer but it is one area that needs to be debated between interested parties and groups but it has to be clear that these debates are based on nothing other than performance advantage. The problem is that these debates cannot happen as, just as soon as someone puts across a vald point, the more militant members of groups look ot have the them cancelled for having a contrary opinion.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

No.

Unless they just do what they did for the Brit Awards and remove gender categories completely.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 21, 2022)

Carlwm said:



			And Amirah Khan might regain a world championship.
		
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Or Brianna Dechambeau in womens long drive. 

I’m no biologist. But Men and Women are built differently. From skeletal down to eyesight perception. There’s a reason why a lady half will see the butter in the fridge and not you. 

Absolute no from me.


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

Men race against men
Women race against women
Trans race against trans
QED


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			This is the thing - I'm not an expert at all but it just seems so obvious that there would be advantages to having had a male skeleton and muscle density?? Where is the research on this? Is it proving inconclusive or are people scared to do the research in the first place for fear of being called transphobic? We need answers sooner rather than later as the issue is getting bigger all the time. I'm just surprised if nobody is out there trying to prove conclusively if it's fair or not, because otherwise we're just having the same conversation every time a trans boxer, weightlifter or swimmer turns up.
		
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Listen to this podcast (9 minutes).


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Men race against men
Women race against women
*Trans race against trans*
QED
		
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I was actually thinking along these lines, plus. Has there ever been any transgender athlete male to female that has had no 
“ advantage”.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2022)

Neilds said:



			I think people should be careful about how they answer this question.  Will leave you open to claims of transphobia, sexism, etc and lead to you being cancelled - just refer to JK Rowling

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I’m another no and it is nothing to do with transphobia, sexism or anything else of that nature. It is simply unfair to born female athletes to have to compete against someone who clearly has a genetic advantage due to their birth gender. 

If you choose to change gender then you should compete in the appropriate trans gender category against similar athletes.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2022)

Just to add that it’s a fine line that there are some sports where I don’t think that it matters if you are male, female or Trans.There would be no advantage where physical strength is an advantage.


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## sweaty sock (Feb 21, 2022)

Meanwhile, Caster Semenya is banned....  Sports got a long way to go on this one...


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

20 votes cast, all in agreement  
Must be a first


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## phillarrow (Feb 21, 2022)

No, for all the reasons already stated about biological advantages ... but I'll say one thing for you guys... 
I've been on another forum that had this same discussion and it very quickly descended into homophobia/transphobia/anti-woke BS! It's really nice to see that this has provoked genuine, well-considered responses. 👍


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## pauljames87 (Feb 21, 2022)

Must say never seen the forum this United 🤣🤣


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## Rooter (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			20 votes cast, all in agreement  
Must be a first
		
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Am just waiting for a few to finish work and be along to put the cat amongst the pigeons.. there will be one!


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## Leftitshort (Feb 21, 2022)

I’m not sure this is the place to get a contrary opinion. I’ll fully admit to not understanding all of the issues but if I had daughters I wouldn’t be happy about them competing vs a trans athlete. Especially in a contact sport


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## GB72 (Feb 21, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m not sure this is the place to get a contrary opinion. I’ll fully admit to not understanding all of the issues but if I had daughters I wouldn’t be happy about them competing vs a trans athlete. Especially in a contact sport
		
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This is a very valid point which is why I believe, and I could be wrong, trans athletes cannot play womens rugby


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m not sure this is the place to get a contrary opinion. I’ll fully admit to not understanding all of the issues but if I had daughters I wouldn’t be happy about them competing vs a trans athlete. Especially in a contact sport
		
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wasn't there a dude MMA fighter who transitioned and unsurprisingly beat 2 shades of poo out of "his" opponents


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## Orikoru (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Men race against men
Women race against women
*Trans race against trans*
QED
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			If you choose to change gender then you should compete in the appropriate trans gender category against similar athletes.
		
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I agree with this as an idea, but I think it will be seen as an imperfect solution simply because there will be a real paucity of competitors for quite a number of years I would have thought. I mean just how many transgender competitive swimmers are out there?


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I agree with this as an idea, but I think it will be seen as an imperfect solution simply because there will be a real paucity of competitors for quite a number of years I would have thought. I mean just how many transgender competitive swimmers are out there?
		
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More than you may think it seems...

''Thomas' win in the 100-yard freestyle was a school- and meet-record time of 47.63, and marked her third individual title at the Ivy League Championships
*Iszac Henig - a transgender man who swims for Yale's women's team - placed second* in 47.82, followed by Princeton's Nikki Venema in 48.81


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## GB72 (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I agree with this as an idea, but I think it will be seen as an imperfect solution simply because there will be a real paucity of competitors for quite a number of years I would have thought. I mean just how many transgender competitive swimmers are out there?
		
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And then you have the more complex issue of the fact that a transgender athlete sees themselves as female and so to be denied the right to compete in female gender specific events is the discimination.


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## Orikoru (Feb 21, 2022)

GB72 said:



			And then you have the more complex issue of the fact that a transgender athlete sees themselves as female and so to be denied the right to compete in female gender specific events is the discimination.
		
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Yes, that is of course what they'll continue to say. At least until the proper research comes out actually proving that their male genes and body type does give them a clear advantage.


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## GB72 (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Yes, that is of course what they'll continue to say. At least until the proper research comes out actually proving that their male genes and body type does give them a clear advantage.
		
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I think what is lacking globally is some legal defintiion in these instances that can be applied but, again, the argument will be to classify anyone by anything other than their chosen gender is discriminatory.


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## Orikoru (Feb 21, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I think what is lacking globally is some legal defintiion in these instances that can be applied but, again, the argument will be to classify anyone by anything other than their chosen gender is discriminatory.
		
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Yes. Their first attempt was obviously the legislation over amount of testosterone in the body, but I don't think it goes far enough. As we've mentioned, just the size and muscle mass are surely factors too.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I agree with this as an idea, but I think it will be seen as an imperfect solution simply because there will be a real paucity of competitors for quite a number of years I would have thought. I mean just how many transgender competitive swimmers are out there?
		
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If in doubt, and they simply wanted to be able to compete, could they be allowed to compete with "biological" males?

I very much doubt a person transitions to become a male to female for sporting reasons (if they did, then surely that would just be cheating by finding a loophole?). I've no problem if a person wants to make this call, but surely they need to weigh up the consequences of doing such a thing. They may get their desire of becoming a female physically, but should that give them a right to also compete at an elite level of sport?

A trans athlete will already have had the "benefits" of going through male puberty, in terms of physical stature, as others have pointed out. Many of them cannot be undone, such as height and other physical attributes. I understand that one of the arguments FOR a trans person competing is that their hormone levels are kept below acceptable standards by drugs? If so, what are those acceptable standards and how are they set?  Also, if a trans athlete is taking performance reducing drugs to get to the specified level, would they get disqualified for NOT taking drugs, or enough drugs? If a biological female was well below the specified hormone levels, could they argue they should be allowed to take performance enhancing drugs to elevate their hormones to the same level as the trans athlete?


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## Robster59 (Feb 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I still find it hard to believe any bloke would have the chop as it were just to win at swimming. That would be seriously extreme.
		
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Helps with the streamlining.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2022)

For once I’m in full agreement with Piers Morgan on this

It’s not a level playing field, so it’s a no from me


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## GreiginFife (Feb 21, 2022)

It seems in these modern times that the more we (society) talks about not labelling, the more labels we seem to find or be told to use. 

I'm not sure level playing fields actually exist, some people are naturally bigger or smaller than other so naturally become more apt for a certain task. I'm sure I'd be at a disadvantage in basketball against a team of 7 footers. I can't make "learn" or "train" myself to be 7ft. 

I say, remove all labels, categories, genders, groups and other stratifications from sports and just have one big free for all. Fairest way really...


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2022)

A 'transgender' sports classification would still give an advantage to the 'male to female' competitors.

Unfortunately there are people who will make the change for ulterior motives and that clouds the issue.

IMO competing on a level basis is what sport is about and since 'sport' is primarily about physical strength and skill it is impossible to level it with transgender transitioning and the legally suspect chemical controlling of hormones.


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## Pants (Feb 21, 2022)

If you are physically born male, the you compete against other males - no matter what you chose to do with parts of your body.
Females ditto.

Simples


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Am just waiting for a few to finish work and be along to put the cat amongst the pigeons.. there will be one!
		
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🤐


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## fundy (Feb 21, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			It seems in these modern times that the more we (society) talks about not labelling, the more labels we seem to find or be told to use.

I'm not sure level playing fields actually exist, some people are naturally bigger or smaller than other so naturally become more apt for a certain task. I'm sure I'd be at a disadvantage in basketball against a team of 7 footers. I can't make "learn" or "train" myself to be 7ft.

I say, remove all labels, categories, genders, groups and other stratifications from sports and just have one big free for all. Fairest way really... 

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better get rid of golf handicaps whilst youre at it


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## GreiginFife (Feb 21, 2022)

fundy said:



			better get rid of golf handicaps whilst youre at it 

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Damn straight. Bare feet or nay feet 🤪


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## Fade and Die (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			20 votes cast, all in agreement  
Must be a first
		
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Up to 36 now, maybe because there is not really a legitimate counter argument? After all It cannot be fair for real women to have to compete against someone who might only be “identifying” as a woman. Trans woman are just not real woman.


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## RichA (Feb 21, 2022)

I'm not voting yes or no. It's too complex for a binary answer without narrative.
I don't see why it couldn't be resolved without being contentious.
In addition to gender separation, boxing and other combat sports have divisions that prevent a 19 stone man fighting a 9 stone man.
Why can't additional divisions be created in any sport to allow trans sportspeople to compete on a level playing field?


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Up to 36 now, *maybe because there is not really a legitimate counter argument?* After all It cannot be fair for real women to have to compete against someone who might only be “identifying” as a woman. Trans woman are just not real woman.
		
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In fairness that doesn't stop a few on here


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			It seems in these modern times that the more we (society) talks about not labelling, the more labels we seem to find or be told to use.

I'm not sure level playing fields actually exist, some people are naturally bigger or smaller than other so naturally become more apt for a certain task. I'm sure I'd be at a disadvantage in basketball against a team of 7 footers. I can't make "learn" or "train" myself to be 7ft.

I say, remove all labels, categories, genders, groups and other stratifications from sports and just have one big free for all. Fairest way really... 

Click to expand...

Plenty of sports have weight categories that work, while for others it's completely irrelevant.

As for the actual question in the OP/Title. I agree with Hogshead-Makar on the 1st article of the OP. Going through male-puberty provides such a benefit that it's not competing on a 'equal opportunity' basis.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 21, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			For once I’m in full agreement with Piers Morgan on this

It’s not a level playing field, so it’s a no from me
		
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I find it hard when my view will align with his.. has to be a really strong second thought to confirm


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			For once I’m in full agreement with Piers Morgan on this

It’s not a level playing field, so it’s a no from me
		
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Agreeing with Pies makes you want to scrub yourself  clean with bleech


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you choose to change gender then you should compete in the appropriate trans gender category against similar athletes.
		
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Orikoru said:



			I agree with this as an idea, but I think it will be seen as* an imperfect solution simply because there will be a real paucity of competitors* for quite a number of years I would have thought. I mean just how many transgender competitive swimmers are out there?
		
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It's not imperfect to those who have been deprived of a fair chance because of someone else's decision to change gender. 

Why should the paucity of similar competitors for those who have transitioned be a factor in any decision to allow the transgender to compete with those who remain in their birth gender and are consequently seriously disadvantaged ?  It should be based purely on whether or not the transgender athlete gains an unfair advantage and it seems fairly clear in this case that they do.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2022)

Dando said:



			Agreeing with Pies makes you want to scrub yourself  clean with bleech
		
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I agree, Pierced Organ is not my favourite human


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 21, 2022)

Piers Moron as Private Eye always calls him as they found out after the first time they did it, he really hates it.


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## Crow (Feb 21, 2022)

Why mention him in the first place?
(Spoilt my day  )


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## louise_a (Feb 21, 2022)

I have not voted, it is a very emotive subject and one with which I have an interest. Knowing what it takes and the hoops you have to jump through i really cannot see anyone transitioning for sporting success, in this country at least you would not get through the gatekeepers. The way I see it is the recognition of gender change based purely on word of the individual concerned, without any hormonal or surgical intervention, it was allowed for the best of intentions but does leads to a can of worms when it comes to some sports.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 22, 2022)

louise_a said:



			I have not voted, it is a very emotive subject and one with which I have an interest. Knowing what it takes and the hoops you have to jump through i really cannot see anyone transitioning for sporting success, in this country at least you would not get through the gatekeepers. The way I see it is the recognition of gender change based purely on word of the individual concerned, without any hormonal or surgical intervention, *it was allowed for the best of intentions but does leads to a can of worms when it comes to some sports.*

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Not just in sport…….



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470978594256130050


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

bobmac said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470978594256130050

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The scary thing is, the other female athletes seem to completely accept this as OK. However, the question is, do they really believe this, or do they recognise that if they even raise the slightest objection, in the politest possible way, they will be defined as a transphobe, reputation ruined and possibly their future careers? 

Are biological females now in a position where they simply have to take it on the chin, and politely applaud with a smile on their face? Or do biological females genuinely accept the issue as fair?


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The scary thing is, the other female athletes seem to completely accept this as OK. However, the question is, do they really believe this, *or do they recognise that if they even raise the slightest objection, in the politest possible way, they will be defined as a transphobe, reputation ruined and possibly their future careers?*

Are biological females now in a position where they simply have to take it on the chin, and politely applaud with a smile on their face? Or do biological females genuinely accept the issue as fair?
		
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Therein lies the problem.


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## Crazyface (Feb 22, 2022)

Not for me it wouldn't. I'd be kicking off big style. What a bluddy joke. It was bound to happen. I heard many a joke being made about how this could happen, even today, one of the lads at work joked he could do it and play in a pro women's team and make a fortune.


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## Ser Shankalot (Feb 22, 2022)

Now that gender re-assignment surgery is a thing - it's time the law caught up to the science, not just in sports but in many other aspects of life where gender is a legal or administrative differentiator. Leaving it up to individual associations and federations is a can of worms, and ripe for abuse and lawsuits from both sides. 

In current law and admin we've had to define age separators (child vs adult vs senior), nationality (citizen vs resident vs temporary) and tax (wealth). We've just never had to legally define male vs female before, because it never came up. Surely, in modern science and biology, there are rigorous, scientific definitions of what is male or female in any species - and hopefully they are based on not just what reproductive organs are still functioning?


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## RichA (Feb 22, 2022)

Difficult though, when the differentiator can only be accurately established via sensitive and intrusive examination and testing. But yes, that kind of stuff needs to be legislated properly rather than left to sports federations and other NG bodies to muddle through.


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## Smiffy (Feb 22, 2022)

If a woman wanted to become a man and play me off scratch, I wouldn't have a problem .
I might even win a few bob...🤔🤔🤔


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

Ser Shankalot said:



			Now that gender re-assignment surgery is a thing - it's time the law caught up to the science, not just in sports but in many other aspects of life where gender is a legal or administrative differentiator. Leaving it up to individual associations and federations is a can of worms, and ripe for abuse and lawsuits from both sides.

In current law and admin we've had to define age separators (child vs adult vs senior), nationality (citizen vs resident vs temporary) and tax (wealth). We've just never had to legally define male vs female before, because it never came up. Surely, in modern science and biology, there are rigorous, *scientific definitions of what is male or female in any species - and hopefully they are based on not just what reproductive organs are still functioning?*

Click to expand...

You'd think, but if those rigorous definitions are set out, then no doubt it will not meet the criteria of some trans people? Gender definition appears to have nothing to do with physicality anymore, but the state of an individuals mind. So, one can no longer use physical characteristics to define gender. Perhaps they could use certain hormone levels? But, would this not simply be arbitrarily set (if you are on one side of the level you are male, otherwise you are female)? Try telling a male to female person that they are male simply because they don't meet the criteria. If a person is right on the level set, are they female one day, and male the next, dependent on fluctuations of hormones?

It appears that the situation is simply this, the gender of a person is whatever they tell you it is. Even if they have absolutely zero surgery, and a man says he identifies as a woman, then many will expect you to take that at face value.


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

Ser Shankalot said:



			Now that gender re-assignment surgery is a thing - it's time the law caught up to the science, not just in sports but in many other aspects of life where gender is a legal or administrative differentiator. Leaving it up to individual associations and federations is a can of worms, and ripe for abuse and lawsuits from both sides.

In current law and admin we've had to define age separators (child vs adult vs senior), nationality (citizen vs resident vs temporary) and tax (wealth). We've just never had to legally define male vs female before, because it never came up. Surely, in modern science and biology, there are rigorous, scientific definitions of what is male or female in any species - and hopefully they are based on not just what reproductive organs are still functioning?
		
Click to expand...

I suppose that you then have to look at the end ambition of the person in question. To create fair and even differentiations in sexes, you are going to need more categories than the curernt male/female. The problem is that the transgender individual wishes to be associated as the opposite sex to their one birth. They may not wish to be classified as transmale or transfemale and may see that as discriminatory. The goal is to be defined as male or female depending on the original sex and direction of change. I suspect that it would be seen as more insulting to create new definitions of sex for the purposes of clasifying transgender individuals who want to be defined as male or female.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2022)

Ser Shankalot said:



			Now that gender re-assignment surgery is a thing - it's time the law caught up to the science, not just in sports but in many other aspects of life where gender is a legal or administrative differentiator. Leaving it up to individual associations and federations is a can of worms, and ripe for abuse and lawsuits from both sides.

In current law and admin we've had to define age separators (child vs adult vs senior), nationality (citizen vs resident vs temporary) and tax (wealth). We've just never had to legally define male vs female before, because it never came up. Surely, in modern science and biology, there are rigorous, scientific definitions of what is male or female in any species - and hopefully they are based on not just what reproductive organs are still functioning?
		
Click to expand...

Speaking from a position of ignorance here, but if you are defining gender etc what about those that wish to be known as gender neutral and not associate either way. Taking that to the extreme, what happens in the sporting context.


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

I do believe that this will reach some sort of crescendo soon though. You cannot tell me that there will not be nations actively recruiting transgender athletes to secure Olympic or other success.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Speaking from a position of ignorance here, but if you are defining gender etc what about those that wish to be known as gender neutral and not associate either way. Taking that to the extreme, what happens in the sporting context.
		
Click to expand...

Another great question. If Sam Smith was a rapid sprinter, could he race in both the female AND male races? Or neither?


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## phillarrow (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You'd think, but if those rigorous definitions are set out, then no doubt it will not meet the criteria of some trans people? *Gender definition appears to have nothing to do with physicality anymore, but the state of an individuals mind*. So, one can no longer use physical characteristics to define gender. Perhaps they could use certain hormone levels? But, would this not simply be arbitrarily set (if you are on one side of the level you are male, otherwise you are female)? Try telling a male to female person that they are male simply because they don't meet the criteria. If a person is right on the level set, are they female one day, and male the next, dependent on fluctuations of hormones?

It appears that the situation is simply this, the gender of a person is whatever they tell you it is. Even if they have absolutely zero surgery, and a man says he identifies as a woman, then many will expect you to take that at face value.
		
Click to expand...

Gender has never been about biology or physicality. Gender is a societal construct that isn't universally consistent across the globe. Sex is about biology and is universally consistent. 

The sex of some people is male. The sex of some people is female. Some people feel that they are born as the wrong sex and so wish to go through a reassignment process. Those people are transsexual. 
Some people choose to live as a different gender from their biological sex without going through any kind of medical intervention. Those people are transgender. 
Some people believe they fit neither of the traditional genders and so choose to live as non-binary (which is the norm for some tribes and not as unusual as people in the west believe). 

Given the biology of how foetuses develop, all of these things are easy to understand and there is scientific evidence that pre-treatment transexuals have different biology from their birth sex, especially in some parts of the brain.


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## phillarrow (Feb 22, 2022)

This thread is moving quite far away from its original post, which is a shame really because the sport question is simply about fairness - not about society/ acceptance/crime etc.


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			This thread is moving quite far away from its original post, which is a shame really because the sport question is simply about fairness - not about society/ acceptance/crime etc.
		
Click to expand...

I guess that the road that I have been going down has bene about fariness across the board. in other words, in a sporting context, to be fair, in this case, to born female swimmers, you would need to be looking at separate race categories for transgender and/or transexual athletes (thank you for the definitions by the way, that helped) but is that fair to create new categories that, in effect, stop people being female who feel that they were born the wrong sex and wish to be treated the same as all other females.


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## Smiffy (Feb 22, 2022)

Do they still have a rudder??


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



*Gender has never been about biology or physicality.* Gender is a societal construct that isn't universally consistent across the globe. Sex is about biology and is universally consistent.

The sex of some people is male. The sex of some people is female. Some people feel that they are born as the wrong sex and so wish to go through a reassignment process. Those people are transsexual.
Some people choose to live as a different gender from their biological sex without going through any kind of medical intervention. Those people are transgender.
Some people believe they fit neither of the traditional genders and so choose to live as non-binary (which is the norm for some tribes and not as unusual as people in the west believe).

Given the biology of how foetuses develop, all of these things are easy to understand and there is scientific evidence that pre-treatment transexuals have different biology from their birth sex, especially in some parts of the brain.
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure? Up until the 1970's gender had an identical meaning to "sex", and was often simply used to avoid confusion with the other meaning of sex (the physical act between people).

Therefore, at one point in our history, gender WAS about biology / physicality? The definition of gender then changed to something much more complex that one used to think.

So, when male and female categories were originally set up in sports, it was at a time when gender effectively meant biological sense? Now that this definition has changed, then maybe sports should change their categories, or the definitions of their categories? Perhaps they could term them as "biological sex"? Therefore, whether a person identifies with a particular gender, or no gender, that is fine. However, gender has nothing to do with sporting categories, and so it becomes irrelevant? Would that be a fairer approach?


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## Orikoru (Feb 22, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Do they still have a rudder??
		
Click to expand...

I didn't even think about this you know - I was working on the assumption that the swimmer in question had undergone the sex change - and I still voted no. If they are simply 'identifying' as a woman with no physical changes (other than testosterone suppressants presumably) and annihilating women at swimming, then that is completely ridiculous.



Fade and Die said:



			Not just in sport…….
View attachment 41388


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html

Click to expand...

And this... if this is true, well, it's just so far beyond ridiculous that there are no words for it. I'm sincerely hoping that since it's the Daily Mail (and there are typos in the image) that the veracity is hazy.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I didn't even think about this you know - I was working on the assumption that the swimmer in question had undergone the sex change - and I still voted no. If they are simply 'identifying' as a woman with no physical changes (other than testosterone suppressants presumably) and annihilating women at swimming, then that is completely ridiculous.


And this... if this is true, well, it's just so far beyond ridiculous that there are no words for it. I'm sincerely hoping that since it's the Daily Mail (and there are typos in the image) that the veracity is hazy. 

Click to expand...

The story is also in the Guardian, the Independent, the Times, the Mirror, the BBC, etc.


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## phillarrow (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Are you sure? Up until the 1970's gender had an identical meaning to "sex", and was often simply used to avoid confusion with the other meaning of sex (the physical act between people).

*Therefore, at one point in our history, gender WAS about biology / physicality? The definition of gender then changed to something much more complex that one used to think.*

So, when male and female categories were originally set up in sports, it was at a time when gender effectively meant biological sense? Now that this definition has changed, then maybe sports should change their categories, or the definitions of their categories? Perhaps they could term them as "biological sex"? Therefore, whether a person identifies with a particular gender, or no gender, that is fine. However, gender has nothing to do with sporting categories, and so it becomes irrelevant? Would that be a fairer approach?
		
Click to expand...

Hard to answer it all due to the way replies work on here. 

The bit I've highlighted is only true for the west. It was never universally true. You're right about how interchangeable the words became though - which is still the cause of lots of confusion. 

In terms of society, I'd say that we live so differently from how we used to live that, in many ways, what it means to be a man or a woman is virtually unrecognisable from what it used to mean - societally that is. 

As for sport, I honestly don't believe that there is a reasonable solution that works for everyone, so I personally would go for keeping the current categories, based on sex, even though that excludes transsexual athletes from competing. As much as I don't like exclusion, I feel it's the only way to keep things fair, without excluding women from sport.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



*This thread is moving quite far away from its original post,* which is a shame really because the sport question is simply about fairness - not about society/ acceptance/crime etc.
		
Click to expand...

Is your comment part of the problem? Crude comments aside, it appears that the very fact some comments have drifted away from purely sport, it becomes taboo to talk about. Surely if we are to look for a good rounded solution to the issue in the OP, we need to look at the topic in a wider sense? Otherwise we are just focusing on very specific areas, not dealing with other broader issues, and then we get ourselves into a big mess because of inconsistency across the board.


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## phillarrow (Feb 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is your comment part of the problem? Crude comments aside, it appears that the very fact some comments have drifted away from purely sport, it becomes taboo to talk about. Surely if we are to look for a good rounded solution to the issue in the OP, we need to look at the topic in a wider sense? Otherwise we are just focusing on very specific areas, not dealing with other broader issues, and then we get ourselves into a big mess because of inconsistency across the board.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you're right. However, my experience of these conversations is that as soon as someone brings into the discussion the behaviour of sexual predators, it rarely ends up as a reasonable discussion and often descends into one about the 'rightness' of the whole issue. I also personally feel that people use these incredibly rare incidents - which are about the perversions of sick individuals - to mask their own prejudices. 

Each to their own but my view is that a conversation about the actions of a perverted criminal are so far away from the fairness of sport that they don't belong on the same page. 👍


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## Swango1980 (Feb 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Maybe you're right. However, my experience of these conversations is that as soon as someone brings into the discussion the behaviour of sexual predators, it rarely ends up as a reasonable discussion and often descends into one about the 'rightness' of the whole issue. I also personally feel that people use these incredibly rare incidents - which are about the perversions of sick individuals - to mask their own prejudices.

Each to their own but my view is that a conversation about the actions of a perverted criminal are so far away from the fairness of sport that they don't belong on the same page. 👍
		
Click to expand...

True in many respects, although I guess the relevance in that particular story is nothing to do with the perversions of this individual, but the decisions made to put them in that particular prison. I am sure similar conversations were made leading up to that particular decision, however in that particular case the outcome were horrible criminal acts from a nasty person, whereas the outcomes in the OP are simply about fairness in sport. 

I suppose in sport, even in each individual sport, the question needs to be asked "why were separate male and female categories set up in the first place?". When that can be answered, the sports governing bodies can decide if this is still relevant or not, or if they need to be defined differently to meet modern definitions. As some have already said, it is probably vitally important to get these definitions right in physical sports such as boxing and rugby, just like they have weight divisions in boxing. Other sports, such as swimming and running, it also seems likely it is important to get it right, as physical attributes play a key part in the sport. Snooker, do we need different male and female categories? If so, what is the purpose? Golf and tennis? Athletes are not in danger from physical contact, and skill plays a large role, however physicality is still hugely important (distance a golf ball is hit, speed of tennis serve, etc).


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## Ser Shankalot (Feb 22, 2022)

This has been a really cool, thoughtful discussion.
I suppose I separate the issue from one of social gender norms vs legal/medical requirement where it is clearly required for sex identity definition. Many areas which have different gender rules are probably just due to historical legacy - eg. I had no idea from a previous poster that snooker had male/female categories. After watching the Queen's Gambit, I'm wondering if chess is also similar. What about darts? Even certain physical sports don't really need it  - why does ice skating have to be 1 man 1 woman? Or even Dancing with the Stars.

But there are other areas, where it can be validly argued that it is not about enforcing social gender norms, but for physical safety and/or fair play. And purely in those areas, it's got nothing to do with feelings, but about some objective definition. And that objective definition will probably be unfair to a few people on the boundary, but so are most of these legal definitions already - they're arbitrary, but at some point, you need to legally define where something is one thing and not another for those cases. It's not fair that a youth aged 16 years and 364 days is arbitrarily treated differently in the justice system than his/her accomplice who is 17 years and 1 day old. Is doing 31 mph on the road that different from doing 29mph? It goes back my suggestion that this is something for governments to decide where it can be applied (only narrowly) and how, so there's no hodge-podge mess which will be very unfair to everybody.


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## Slime (Feb 22, 2022)

NO.
The thought is just utterly ridiculous and unfair.
Anyone who thinks it's fair is just wrong.


The very thought of it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2022)

So it’s been a great debate - so great posts 

What would be interesting is if the people that think it is fair and she should be allowed to compete would expand on the reasons why ?


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## Slime (Feb 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it’s been a great debate - so great posts

*What would be interesting is if the people that think it is fair and she should be allowed to compete would expand on the reasons why ?*

Click to expand...

To date, there's only one person who has voted yes.
You're dead right, it'd be very interesting to hear what their thoughts on this are.


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

OK, not my point of view but I will have a go at the counter argument. If someone has transitioned to the opposite sex then they have a right to be treated equally as others within the same defined group. How would it feel to have transitioned but then be told that you still have to be treated as a man. Furthermore, sports have always favoured those with a genetic or biological propensity in the first place. Taller basketball players have a genetic advantage, is that unfair etc. OK, not the strongest argument but I thought I would at least try and put across an opposing view for discussion.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 22, 2022)

Slime said:



			To date, there's only one person who has voted yes.
You're dead right, it'd be very interesting to hear what their *feelings* on this are.
		
Click to expand...

“Fixed” your post. There’s no way actual thinking can make for a solid argument on the opposite.


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## Slime (Feb 22, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



View attachment 41392

Click to expand...


Why alter what I posted?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I didn't even think about this you know - I was working on the assumption that the swimmer in question had undergone the sex change - and I still voted no. If they are simply 'identifying' as a woman with no physical changes (other than testosterone suppressants presumably) and annihilating women at swimming, then that is completely ridiculous.


And this... if this is true, well, it's just so far beyond ridiculous that there are no words for it. I'm sincerely hoping that since it's the Daily Mail (and there are typos in the image) that the veracity is hazy. 

Click to expand...

I've seen this story on a few sources. Tbh if sent inside I personally and I'm sure many will disagree that you forfeit the right to decide where you go 

It's not like you get sent to the one nearest your home or with the best WiFi service...


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## Stuart_C (Feb 22, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			If a woman wanted to become a man and play me off scratch, I wouldn't have a problem .
I might even win a few bob...🤔🤔🤔
		
Click to expand...

Would you play off the reds too?


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 22, 2022)

Slime said:



			Why alter what I posted?[/QUOTE
		
Click to expand...

Apologies, I should've made it clear that it was a "Fixed your post" take on it all. Have Updated my post to reflect it.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 22, 2022)

Slime said:



			To date, there's only one person who has voted yes.
You're dead right, it'd be very interesting to hear what their thoughts on this are.
		
Click to expand...

If there’s a yes vote without an explanation my initial thought would be it’s a wind-up.


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## Orikoru (Feb 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If there’s a yes vote without an explanation my initial thought would be it’s a wind-up.
		
Click to expand...

The votes aren't anonymous, it says @2blue was the sole yes voter.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 22, 2022)

He was going to sit on the fence but mis-judged it and injured his balls.  Hence the vote  ;-)


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## JamesR (Feb 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			OK, not my point of view but I will have a go at the counter argument. If someone has transitioned to the opposite sex then they have a right to be treated equally as others within the same defined group. How would it feel to have transitioned but then be told that you still have to be treated as a man. Furthermore, sports have always favoured those with a genetic or biological propensity in the first place. Taller basketball players have a genetic advantage, is that unfair etc. OK, not the strongest argument but I thought I would at least try and put across an opposing view for discussion.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that in sport, more often than not, the winners are those with physical genetic advantages - bigger hearts, lungs, hands, limbs etc, being examples.
But those people normally only compete against people from their own sex.  ie Lood de jager is taller than Maro Itoje, so has an advantage is lineouts.
If One of those players were to start competing against women, that advantage in height is suddenly unfair, because you aren't comparing like for like (male lock v's male lock), you're comparing different genetic athletes (current, or former, male lock v's female lock).


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## phillarrow (Feb 22, 2022)

It's the difference between those born with an advantage and those whose advantage is as a result of medical intervention. 

However, just to throw a spanner in the works, I give you Castor Semenya! What are the views on intersex athletes being allowed to compete v being directed to take medication to change hormone levels? How different is this from Michael Phelp's freakishly large lungs?


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I agree that in sport, more often than not, the winners are those with physical genetic advantages - bigger hearts, lungs, hands, limbs etc, being examples.
But those people normally only compete against people from their own sex.  ie Lood de jager is taller than Maro Itoje, so has an advantage is lineouts.
If One of those players were to start competing against women, that advantage in height is suddenly unfair, because you aren't comparing like for like (male lock v's male lock), you're comparing different genetic athletes (current, or former, male lock v's female lock).
		
Click to expand...

As I mentioned, just making an argument for the sake of an opposing view. That siad, yest there are issues when there is direct physical contact involved but, lets have a look at the example given. How does Itoje compete when he is shorter etc. By developing skills to make the most of the advantages he does have and try and negate those that other lock has and so technique is adapted to deal with genetic differences. Harder to do with swinning where the technique is set and so much is dpendent on physical factors. So, you had Phelps with his massive feet that contributed towards making him nigh on unbeatable. Genetic advantage again. I guess (and again not my viewpoint) but the argument is that the trnasgender athlete has set the new benchmark and it is up to others to reach that standard. The counter to that is that, with the gaps involved, is it possible to reach those standards.


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			It's the difference between those born with an advantage and those whose advantage is as a result of medical intervention.

However, just to throw a spanner in the works, I give you Castor Semenya! What are the views on intersex athletes being allowed to compete v being directed to take medication to change hormone levels? How different is this from Michael Phelp's freakishly large lungs?
		
Click to expand...

I think that your first point goes back to your original comments about sex and gender. Whilst the category definition in sport remains based on a generic interpretation of the term gender then the intervention, which is not performance enhancing per se, remains legal. I suppose you could argue that a transexual athlete was born with an advantage, like Phelps or Thorpe (think I used the wrong one in an earlied post about feet) and so is in the same position and it is the non performance enhancing gender swap that has allowed that advantage to become a massive one by changing the field.


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## louise_a (Feb 22, 2022)

I have been trying to approach this thread with open mind and most of the posts have merit. Personally I noticed a great different in physical strength once I had fully transitioned medication and surgery do make a big difference. I do not know how far down the road some of these athletes have gone and I do understand that without intervention physical difference play a big part, after fully transitioning not much, the grey area is the middle ground. England had a rule where if you had not had surgery you had to have been taking hormone therapy forat lest two years, however I think that doe to equality laws this may have changed. I do not know what that best way forward is and am just thankful that playing golf is not reliant on physical attributes, I am very comparable with others of my standard and am often out driven.


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

louise_a said:



			I have been trying to approach this thread with open mind and most of the posts have merit. Personally I noticed a great different in physical strength once I had fully transitioned medication and surgery do make a big difference. I do not know how far down the road some of these athletes have gone and I do understand that without intervention physical difference play a big part, after fully transitioning not much, the grey area is the middle ground. England had a rule where if you had not had surgery you had to have been taking hormone therapy forat lest two years, however I think that doe to equality laws this may have changed. I do not know what that best way forward is and am just thankful that playing golf is not reliant on physical attributes, I am very comparable with others of my standard and am often out driven.
		
Click to expand...

So there is a reduction in physical benefit over time (apologies, a subject matter that I know very little about). If that is the case, and apologies for making a serious issue sound trite and petty, but would an option be one similar to residency rules for changing the nation you represent at some sports and so a period has to pass post transition before being able to compete.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2022)

In the case of Trans people competing in Sport I think we need to strip away all the issues relating to sexual identity and consider what's fair for the particular Sport.
Sports need to be competed on a level playing field where each competitor has the same opportunities.  

In this particular situation it seems this isn't the case so the ruling body should make a decision on what's acceptable to allow competitions to be equitable.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 22, 2022)

Ser Shankalot said:



			Now that gender re-assignment surgery is a thing - it's time the law caught up to the science, not just in sports but in many other aspects of life where gender is a legal or administrative differentiator. Leaving it up to individual associations and federations is a can of worms, and ripe for abuse and lawsuits from both sides. 

In current law and admin we've had to define age separators (child vs adult vs senior), nationality (citizen vs resident vs temporary) and tax (wealth). We've just never had to legally define male vs female before, because it never came up. Surely, in modern science and biology, there are rigorous, scientific definitions of what is male or female in any species - and hopefully they are based on not just what reproductive organs are still functioning?
		
Click to expand...

I always understood that the individual cells of a person are either male or female, notwithstanding other parameters.
If that is a scientific fact, why cannot that be the yardstick for such things as sports etc where there are male and female categories.?


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## phillarrow (Feb 22, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I always understood that the individual cells of a person are either male or female, notwithstanding other parameters.
If that is a scientific fact, why cannot that be the yardstick for such things as sports etc where there are male and female categories.?
		
Click to expand...

It's not a scientific fact. Our cells aren't male or female. 

I think you're referring to chromosomes and XX vXY? The truth is that this very simple way of teaching genetics massively understates how complex the development of a foetus is, as well as the multitude of facets that go into our sex. It's not just the chromosomes that are different, or the reproductive parts, there are changes that take place in areas of the brain too. It's varied and complex. The XX/XY thing is just a simple way of teaching it to secondary school level. 

We are all technically female at first (it's why men have nipples) and the testicles are formed due to a single amino acid working on the Y chromosome. Gene development is so easily disrupted at this early stage that changes/differences are quite frequent. Some of those changes lead to biological advantage - evolution, some lead to deformities, many lead to nothing at all, but some lead to the 'switch' from female embryo to male not quite going to completion. 

There is no science to suggest that men are men and women are women, with nothing in between. Our understanding has grown a long way away from that binary view of both gender and sex. 👍


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## sweaty sock (Mar 1, 2022)

Theres been a proposition by a journalist whos name I'll try and find....

It was to abolish the 'male' category.  And just call it 'Open'.  Anyone can compete and the best will win.  Its also possible to see how sport could be divided in ways different from sex/gender. You could for instance have height categories for basketball instead, so that the elite top end of the sport is open to all,  without restriction.  And the lower levels (normally split by sex and age) are divided up in a function away from sex/gender in a way more suited to the sport?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 1, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Theres been a proposition by a journalist whos name I'll try and find....

It was to abolish the 'male' category.  And just call it 'Open'.  Anyone can compete and the best will win.  Its also possible to see how sport could be divided in ways different from sex/gender. You could for instance have height categories for basketball instead, so that the elite top end of the sport is open to all,  without restriction.  And the lower levels (normally split by sex and age) are divided up in a function away from sex/gender in a way more suited to the sport?
		
Click to expand...

Although, presumably you'd still have a female category (i.e. Open and Female)? I see two problems with that:
1. It is likely to worsen equality between men and women, not improve it, as the Open category is simply open to all. As the Open category is theoretically open to ALL sexes, then the female category would easily be considered the lower level / quality
2. Male to female athletes consider themselves female, so would still wish to be allowed to compete in that category, so the problem still remains


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 1, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Theres been a proposition by a journalist whos name I'll try and find....

It was to abolish the 'male' category.  And just call it 'Open'.  Anyone can compete and the best will win.  Its also possible to see how sport could be divided in ways different from sex/gender. *You could for instance have height categories for basketball instead,* so that the elite top end of the sport is open to all,  without restriction.  And the lower levels (normally split by sex and age) are divided up in a function away from sex/gender in a way more suited to the sport?
		
Click to expand...

This is sheer stupidity, to bend over backwards and find "solutions" to everything in the name of "inclusion". Pandora's box sure has been opened up nice and wide due to these few pre-men who now are women. Assuming the journalist is based at the Huffington Post or the Guardian, have never set foot on any sort of sports field, let alone tried to put together a team week in and week out. And now some people think that even more classifications is gonna make things better? F me.


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## Dando (Mar 1, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			This is sheer stupidity, to bend over backwards and find "solutions" to everything in the name of "inclusion". Pandora's box sure has been opened up nice and wide due to these few pre-men who now are women. Assuming the journalist is based at the Huffington Post or the Guardian, have never set foot on any sort of sports field, let alone tried to put together a team week in and week out. And now some people think that even more classifications is gonna make things better? F me.
		
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We’ve had to bend over backwards to let you attend meets! Bloody foreigners coming over here with their
dodgy handicaps


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 1, 2022)

Dando said:



			We’ve had to bend over backwards to let you attend meets! Bloody foreigners coming over here with their
dodgy handicaps
		
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At least I've got myself my own car now!


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## Dando (Mar 1, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			At least I've got myself my own car now!
		
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Did you part exchange your horse?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 1, 2022)

Dando said:



			Did you part exchange your horse?
		
Click to expand...


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## sunshine (Mar 1, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Speaking from a position of ignorance here, but if you are defining gender etc what about those that wish to be known as gender neutral and not associate either way. Taking that to the extreme, what happens in the sporting context.
		
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I guess that wouldn't be a problem, because if the person didn't identify as female they wouldn't enter a female event.


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## sunshine (Mar 1, 2022)

This is a good debate with some excellent contributions.

Firstly, the notion that a man would seek to transition to female to win competitions feels absurd. Transitioning is a long, arduous process that has massive implications in life. Transgender people suffer huge levels of discrimination and have a very high suicide rate. It's not something to be done on a whim - the bits that are chopped off do not grow back.

Secondly, female sport is not being swamped by transgender athletes. The Lia Thomas situation is highly unusual, but of course newsworthy. It's not clear how far she has transitioned, but I don't think she would yet meet the established IOC criteria to participate in elite sport: IOC approves consensus with regard to athletes who have changed sex - Olympic News (olympics.com)  (note this is being superceded).

Thirdly, FINA and other governing bodies generally have had clear policies over the last decade or so, but these are being increasingly challenged.
New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils | Sport politics | The Guardian


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## Papas1982 (Mar 1, 2022)

Can't believe this is even a discussion. 

Live your life in general society however you wish. But the best women in the world will get robbed. 

How the hell can Caster Semenya be questioned if this is allowed. 

It's farcical. How anyone can genuinely claim that is fully post transition there isn't some residual advantage is ridiculous. For the average Joe/Jane maybe, but for an athlete that still trains. Absolute BS!


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## Slime (Mar 2, 2022)

I'd still love to hear *2blue*'s take on this.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 2, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			This is sheer stupidity, to bend over backwards and find "solutions" to everything in the name of "inclusion". Pandora's box sure has been opened up nice and wide due to these few pre-men who now are women. Assuming the journalist is based at the Huffington Post or the Guardian, have never set foot on any sort of sports field, let alone tried to put together a team week in and week out. And now some people think that even more classifications is gonna make things better? F me.
		
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Its not the only instance in sport though is it, the same problem exists in special olympics with athletes category allocation 'issues'.  We just happen to turn a bling eye to one and are up in arms about another.  I'd love to know the solution.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60842863

Don't look like this story will go away for some time. Not sure how it will come to an amicable solution when different associations have different stances on it.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 23, 2022)

I was on American sports radio talking about this - my own view was that people born men compete in men's events and people born women compete in women's events.  If people want to transition that is up to them but they cannot compete in the alternative sex sport.
Not sure if that is right or wrong and I know the woke police would go mental over that view but that is how I see it.


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## road2ruin (Mar 23, 2022)

This may have been previously covered, apologies if so, however you have a very average men's swimmer who was ranked around 500 odd. They transition over to women's and they're now amongst the best. It's clear from those numbers alone that she has an advantage.

There should be two categories IMO, Open and Female. Female is for those born a female, the Open category is open to anyone else regardless of sex/gender.


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60842863

Don't look like this story will go away for some time. Not sure how it will come to an amicable solution when different associations have different stances on it.
		
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This has become a culture war virtue signal for ambitious and cynical [people who can't be discussed here].


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			This has become a culture war virtue signal for ambitious and cynical [people who can't be discussed here].
		
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👍Totally understand the transgender dilemma in a person. But my thoughts are with competitors who are then at a disadvantage.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 23, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			👍Totally understand the transgender dilemma in a person. But my thoughts are with competitors who are then at a disadvantage.
		
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Lord Coe is hardly a Transphobe but his view "I think that the integrity of women's sport if we don't get this right, and actually the future of women's sport, is very fragile," Is spot on, also Hungarian Swimmer Reka Gyorgy who missed out because of the inclusion of Lia Thomas said "Thomas is doing what she is passionate about and deserves that right" but said she "would like to critique the NCAA rules that allow her to compete against us". Which is really magnanimous but shows how woman athletes feel about having to race against trans athletes.

I agree with Sharon Davies it is  a "Disgraceful abandonment of women's right to equal opportunities in sport"... Mind you when two senior Female MPs cannot even define the word _"Female"_ maybe the writing is on the wall for real female athletes.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Lord Coe is hardly a Transphobe but his view "I think that the integrity of women's sport if we don't get this right, and actually the future of women's sport, is very fragile," Is spot on, also Hungarian Swimmer Reka Gyorgy who missed out because of the inclusion of Lia Thomas said "Thomas is doing what she is passionate about and deserves that right" but said she "would like to critique the NCAA rules that allow her to compete against us". Which is really magnanimous but shows how woman athletes feel about having to race against trans athletes.

I agree with Sharon Davies it is  a "Disgraceful abandonment of women's right to equal opportunities in sport"... Mind you when two senior Female MPs cannot even define the word _"Female"_ maybe the writing is on the wall for real female athletes. 

Click to expand...

When I look at how disabled athletics and swimming is put into different categories “ to make it fair” that people are competing against one another with an equal chance of winning. I can see how this will go in the future re transgender. At the end of the day they are athlete and deserve to compete on an equal footing. As do the people they are competing against.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			This may have been previously covered, apologies if so, however you have a very average men's swimming who was ranked around 500 odd. They transition over to women's and they're now amongst the best. It's clear from those numbers alone that she has an advantage.

There should be two categories IMO, Open and Female. Female is for those born a female, the Open category is open to anyone else regardless of sex/gender.
		
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This seems , to me, is the only way to resolve a 'binary' situation.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Lord Coe is hardly a Transphobe but his view "I think that the integrity of women's sport if we don't get this right, and actually the future of women's sport, is very fragile," Is spot on, also Hungarian Swimmer Reka Gyorgy who missed out because of the inclusion of Lia Thomas said "Thomas is doing what she is passionate about and deserves that right" but said she "would like to critique the NCAA rules that allow her to compete against us". Which is really magnanimous but shows how woman athletes feel about having to race against trans athletes.

I agree with Sharon Davies it is  a "Disgraceful abandonment of women's right to equal opportunities in sport"... Mind you when two senior Female MPs cannot even define the word _"Female"_ maybe the writing is on the wall for real female athletes. 

Click to expand...

When I look at how disabled athletics and swimming is put into different categories “ to make it fair” that people are competing against one another with an equal chance of winning. I can see how this will go in the future re transgender. At the end of the day they are athlete and deserve to compete on an equal footing. As do the people they are competing against.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2022)

I did put this in the Laughter thread but....


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## Springveldt (Mar 23, 2022)

Another no from me. The simple fact that she has went through puberty (while training no doubt, you don't get to be a college swimmer by accident) is a major advantage. It's not an equal playing field for those born female.

On a side note, I used to weight train through my 20's and then stopped when the kids came along. When I starting training again 10 years or so later I hadn't really lost that much strength and I was much stronger than work colleagues who had never really trained. It takes years for male strength to disappear. I'd imagine taking suppressants will speed it up but I'd bet she will still have a major advantage in strength even a few years from now.


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## Captainron (Mar 23, 2022)

Slime said:



			I'd still love to hear *2blue*'s take on this.
		
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Think we all would. 1 out of 71.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 23, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Think we all would. 1 out of 71.
		
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I used to love to go against the grain for the sake of it too. On the other hand, that was when I was around 6-7 years old.


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## Orikoru (Mar 24, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			I used to love to go against the grain for the sake of it too. On the other hand, that was when I was around 6-7 years old.
		
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He has stopped this from being the only completely unanimous debate in the history of the forum I think.


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## SteveW86 (Mar 24, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			He has stopped this from being the only completely unanimous debate in the history of the forum I think. 

Click to expand...

Does it count as a debate if he hasnt actually put an argument forward?


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## RichA (Mar 24, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			He has stopped this from being the only completely unanimous debate in the history of the forum I think. 

Click to expand...

There have been abstentions, so he's not the only one blocking unanimity.


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## Orikoru (Mar 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			There have been abstentions, so he's not the only one blocking unanimity.
		
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On the fence doesn't count I'm afraid, everything must be black and white.


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## RichA (Mar 24, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			On the fence doesn't count I'm afraid, everything must be black and white. 

Click to expand...

A non-binary question shouldn't be restricted to a binary answer.


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## Orikoru (Mar 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			A non-binary question shouldn't be restricted to a binary answer.
		
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I don't think she's non-binary, that's a whole additional can of worms.


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## Backache (Mar 24, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I don't think she's non-binary, that's a whole additional can of worms. 

Click to expand...

Worms are hermaphrodite so definitely non-binary.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 27, 2022)

UK version... Ms Bridges making case for british olympic pursuit team...


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## Fade and Die (Mar 27, 2022)




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## Rooter (Mar 29, 2022)

Things gonna hit the fan soon, Emily is going to be racing against Laura Kenny! Emily beat men only a few months ago....

https://www.outkick.com/transgender...et-to-become-the-lia-thomas-of-great-britain/


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## Tashyboy (Mar 30, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			UK version... Ms Bridges making case for british olympic pursuit team...
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099
Ms Bridges failed


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## IanM (Mar 31, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099
Ms Bridges failed
		
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No idea what Mr Hudson would have made of this!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2022)

Sort of sums it up for me.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 1, 2022)

Yeah, ive been pondering this.

My conclusion is that I've made lots of decisions over my life that have adversely effected my sporting ability, all of which ive taken and accepted the consequences.  I dont feel the decisions ive taken should allow me dispensation to compete at a national level.  Things like getting married, having a job, going to university, eating pie and chips.  All of which i valued more than my 400m pace.  I dont think i should be permitted a berth into a national side that considers these choices as a basic right.  

Clearly, changing your gender is a colossal, and no doubt incredibly difficult decision. In my view it must outway any sporting ambition.  So i think its unreasonable for these athletes to expect their sporting careers to be unaffected. I am totally behind theyre rights to be included and compete in sport, but that competition must be on a level playing field, even if that is one skewed against you by your other life choices.  It shouldnt be possible to skew things in your favour.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Yeah, ive been pondering this.

My conclusion is that I've made lots of decisions over my life that have adversely effected my sporting ability, all of which ive taken and accepted the consequences.  I dont feel the decisions ive taken should allow me dispensation to compete at a national level.  Things like getting married, having a job, going to university, eating pie and chips.  All of which i valued more than my 400m pace.  I dont think i should be permitted a berth into a national side that considers these choices as a basic right. 

Clearly, changing your gender is a colossal, and no doubt incredibly difficult decision. In my view it must outway any sporting ambition.  So i think its unreasonable for these athletes to expect their sporting careers to be unaffected. I am totally behind theyre rights to be included and compete in sport, but that competition must be on a level playing field, even if that is one skewed against you by your other life choices.  It shouldnt be possible to skew things in your favour.
		
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Agreed. I’ve no argument with their life choices or their right to compete in sport, but equally those still competing in sport in their birth gender are entitled to a level playing field as well. The pendulum seems to be swinging away from common sense in a desperate attempt to ensure that the wants and needs of the minority are placed ahead of the vast majority. 

Listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday, India Willoughby tried to defend her right to compete against women by saying that Peter Crouch had an unfair advantage in the penalty area because he was so tall, but wasn’t banned or forced to play against people of the same height. If she feels that is a genuine argument I pity her.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 1, 2022)

I feel trans persons should have their own single category, as I feel a man going trans will have inherent muscle strength and a woman going trans will likely be taking supplements to boost their muscle strength.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 1, 2022)

A very good lengthy read and very insightful

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...lee-weigh-in&usg=AOvVaw3aRWFQVK-GaX7OZsvqKvz1


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## Dando (Apr 1, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Agreed. I’ve no argument with their life choices or their right to compete in sport, but equally those still competing in sport in their birth gender are entitled to a level playing field as well. The pendulum seems to be swinging away from common sense in a desperate attempt to ensure that the wants and needs of the minority are placed ahead of the vast majority.

Listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday, India Willoughby tried to defend her right to compete against women by saying that *Peter Crouch had an unfair advantage in the penalty area because he was so tall*, but wasn’t banned or forced to play against people of the same height. If she feels that is a genuine argument I pity her.
		
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This must go down it history as the stupidest comment ever made


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## IanM (Apr 1, 2022)

I think the chances of folk changing gender, purely motivated by potential earnings in womens' sport, is really, really low.  Not impossible though...  anyone aware of anyone competing who has transitioned in the opposite direction?

What we'll see played out soon is confirmation of who is higher up the Woke Rights Table:   Women at Birth, or  Women who were not female at birth.

Of course, I'm not qualified to say how I'd feel as a women if I was beaten a former bloke.   So, I'm willing to be educated on this, but having made massive strides in the past decade, is Women's sport under threat?  (Or is this a minor issue?)


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## IanM (Apr 1, 2022)

Dando said:



			This must go down it history as the stupidest comment ever made
		
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No, it's true. Alex Stewart cost me a Test  Career cos he had loads more talent!!   Who do I sue?


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## chrisd (Apr 1, 2022)

Simple 

Only men have prostates. I now don't have one, I now want to win the ladies club championship at my place, I identify as a female as a result of my body changes 😁😁


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## IanM (Apr 1, 2022)

chrisd said:



			Simple

Only men have prostates. I now don't have one, I now want to win the ladies club championship at my place, I identify as a female as a result of my body changes 😁😁
		
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But would you?


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## sweaty sock (Apr 1, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			A very good lengthy read and very insightful

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj-lMK4y_L2AhX1mFwKHWqdAIEQFnoECAUQAQ&url=https://www.deseret.com/2021/7/29/22584285/male-to-female-transgender-olympic-athletes-impact-womens-sports-president-biden-mike-lee-weigh-in&usg=AOvVaw3aRWFQVK-GaX7OZsvqKvz1

Click to expand...

Thanks for that - good read.


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## chrisd (Apr 1, 2022)

IanM said:



			But would you?
		
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Win? 

Quite possibly


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## RichA (Apr 1, 2022)

I don't think that those affected in any walk of life other than sport see it as a lifestyle choice, like diet, or as an opportunity to make it big.
Purely in a sporting context, taking gender and sexual identity out of the equation, it makes me think of the period when Jack Charlton helped about 20 English footballers who couldn't make their national team realise that they were actually Irish.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 1, 2022)

RichA said:



			I don't think that those affected in any walk of life other than sport see it as a lifestyle choice, like diet, or as an opportunity to make it big.
Purely in a sporting context, taking gender and sexual identity out of the equation, it makes me think of the period when Jack Charlton helped about 20 English footballers who couldn't make their national team realise that they were actually Irish.
		
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100% agree, I cant believe anyone looks at their sporting status and decides the best way to improve is to change gender.

I assume this is all a side effect of a solution to each persons much bigger struggles


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## Tashyboy (Apr 1, 2022)

chrisd said:



			Simple

Only men have prostates. I now don't have one, I now want to win the ladies club championship at my place, I identify as a female as a result of my body changes 😁😁
		
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Er, that link I posted showed that not only men have prostates. 😳 It goes onto explain the difference between people born with
 “ intersex” organs and transgender people, for want of a better wording. People who identify as being the wrong sex as against people who are born both sexes. Obviously there is a massive difference. It really was an eye opening historical read re past,present and future problems.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 1, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Er, that link I posted showed that not only men have prostates. 😳 It goes onto explain the difference between people born with
“ intersex” organs and transgender people, for want of a better wording. People who identify as being the wrong sex as against people who are born both sexes. Obviously there is a massive difference. It really was an eye opening historical read re past,present and future problems.
		
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Not to mention the dismal performance of current requirements to compete!


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## Swango1980 (Apr 1, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			100% agree, I cant believe anyone looks at their sporting status and decides the best way to improve is to change gender.

I assume this is all a side effect of a solution to each persons much bigger struggles
		
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It is an interesting question though.
As far as I can tell, the individuals in these cases were all excellent make athletes, albeit they were not at the level of the top male athletes. They then want to make a major lifestyle choice, but demand they can then still compete at the top of the women's sport.

However, an answer I do not know. How many female athletes, at any level of their game, decide they want to transition as a male and compete in male sport? I do not know the answer, potential thoughts are:


exactly the same number, it just doesn't make the news as there is no fairness issue (although would they be able to compete in the men's game, would the drugs be performance enhancing?)
it doesn't really happen at all, as a female athlete who wishes to be a male knows they'd pretty much be sacrificing their sporting career. So, they either balance things up and decide not to do it, or they do it aware of the sacrifices.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 1, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			100% agree, I cant believe anyone looks at their sporting status and decides the best way to improve is to change gender.

I assume this is all a side effect of a solution to each persons much bigger struggles
		
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Unfortunately when early testing was brought out for women in the olympics I think it was. Some athletes stopped competing because they knew they would fail. Suffice to say that was a massive improvement on women being asked to strip naked and show there tackle 😳 to prove they are women 😖


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## sweaty sock (Apr 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is an interesting question though.
As far as I can tell, the individuals in these cases were all excellent make athletes, albeit they were not at the level of the top male athletes. They then want to make a major lifestyle choice, but demand they can then still compete at the top of the women's sport.

However, an answer I do not know. How many female athletes, at any level of their game, decide they want to transition as a male and compete in male sport? I do not know the answer, potential thoughts are:


exactly the same number, it just doesn't make the news as there is no fairness issue (although would they be able to compete in the men's game, would the drugs be performance enhancing?)
it doesn't really happen at all, as a female athlete who wishes to be a male knows they'd pretty much be sacrificing their sporting career. So, they either balance things up and decide not to do it, or they do it aware of the sacrifices.


Click to expand...

I find it hard to believe its not the same number.  In the current climate, if my sporting status was important enough to me, I'd be asking for option 3.  Continue to compete in womens sport as they'd easily meet the current criteria!!


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## Swango1980 (Apr 1, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			I find it hard to believe its not the same number.  In the current climate, if my sporting status was important enough to me, I'd be asking for option 3.  Continue to compete in womens sport as they'd easily meet the current criteria!!
		
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I don't know enough about the medical procedures. I assumed they would have to take some sort of hormones, which could be considered performance enhancing if going from female to male, yet still wanting to compete with the females. Mind you, even if they did have an Option 3, then should male to female still not have that Option 3, and continue to compete in the male category?


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## sweaty sock (Apr 1, 2022)

So according to article previously posted.

Female testosterone levels generally between 2 and 4
Male around 23
Requirement for male to female to compete 10

So having gone through male puberty and having more than twice as much testosterone, in some cases its not even tested if you can prove youve taken the pills, which in some cases dont even work... youre free to join the womens wrestling team... what a mess!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2022)

We have various classes in the Paralympics, why not have two transgender classes for regular sports, transgender female to male & transgender male to female.  Those who have transgendered then complete against their peers, as do able bodied & disabled athletes.  Where's the problem; the only issue I'm seeing is small fields?


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## road2ruin (Apr 1, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			We have various classes in the Paralympics, why not have two transgender classes for regular sports, transgender female to male & transgender male to female.  Those who have transgendered then complete against their peers, as do able bodied & disabled athletes.  Where's the problem; the only issue I'm seeing is small fields?
		
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I would tend to agree with this, the Paralympic classes are very specific to ensure as level a playing field as possible so I don't see a reason why it couldn't be the same in regular sports. Failing that there should just be two classes, 'Open' and 'Female'.


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## bobmac (Apr 1, 2022)

Have there been any women who have wanted to change gender to compete against men?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 1, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Have there been any women who have wanted to change gender to compete against men?
		
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It is entirely possible but at elite level they simply would not register as competitive so it does not become a story. We are only hearing about these stories because the people changing have the potential to compete way above their previous level and are distorting the competitions they are in.


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## bobmac (Apr 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is entirely possible but at elite level they simply would not register as competitive so it does not become a story. We are only hearing about these stories because the people changing have the potential to compete way above their previous level and are distorting the competitions they are in.
		
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So the women wouldn't stand a chance against the men/man


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 1, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So the women wouldn't stand a chance against the men/man
		
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I presume you are making a point here, one we already know to be fair. I don't think the people on this forum are the ones that need convincing in this debate.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 1, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So the women wouldn't stand a chance against the men/man
		
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It would depend on the sport. Almost certainly not if it was boxing, cycling, swimming or other more physical activities. Absolutely no reason why not in sports such as snooker, darts, chess etc.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 1, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			So according to article previously posted.

Female testosterone levels generally between 2 and 4
Male around 23
Requirement for male to female to compete 10

So having gone through male puberty and having more than twice as much testosterone, in some cases its not even tested if you can prove youve taken the pills, which in some cases dont even work... youre free to join the womens wrestling team... what a mess!
		
Click to expand...

I think also one thing that made me smile. You cannot use banned drugs to compete. But you can use drugs to compete from male to female 😳🤔😖
It’s a minefield


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## louise_a (Apr 1, 2022)

The idea of having a competitions for trans competitors is really laughable, there are only a handful in each sport. That said I don't know the answer is, I am just glad that I play golf where any perceived physical advantage is by far outweighed by the skill aspect.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2022)

louise_a said:



*The idea of having a competitions for trans competitors is really laughable*, there are only a handful in each sport. That said I don't know the answer is, I am just glad that I play golf where any perceived physical advantage is by far outweighed by the skill aspect.
		
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More or less laughable than the alternative of watching transitioned female athletes beating birth female athletes?  Yes, it would be a small field but at least they would be competing against their peers and any win would be properly acknowledged; as it stands any victory that a transitioned female athlete achieves is tainted for me, and I suspect the vast majority.

This is the opinion of someone with first hand experience of the subject;

Among those standing by Navratilova: her former tennis coach, who's also a world-renowned eye doctor, still practicing in her mid-80s. This doctor drew on her understanding of the science, citing medical journals. As she reaffirms months later in a deep, authoritative voice: "It is just biology. Men have 10 times the amount of testosterone that normal women have. [The peer-reviewed journal _Clinical Chemistry _has that number at seven or eight times.] Now you want to get rid of that testosterone? O.K., but then it is going to take a couple of years for that to equilibrate. And men still have a larger frame with a larger cardiac output, a larger lung capacity."

https://www.si.com/tennis/2019/06/2...ntity-politics-transgender-where-are-they-now


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 2, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It would depend on the sport. Almost certainly not if it was boxing, cycling, swimming or other more physical activities. Absolutely no reason why not in sports such as snooker, darts, chess etc.
		
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Darts are out. They don’t have the hunter gatherer genes of throwing spears nor the narrower perception for focusing on targets as men do. 
“You throw like a girl” still stands. They just don’t throw with the same velocity regardless of how long they’ve done it. 
I suspect Snooker with imparting the necessary amount of spin on the ball would be the same.


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Darts are out. They don’t have the hunter gatherer genes of throwing spears nor the narrower perception for focusing on targets as men do.
“You throw like a girl” still stands. They just don’t throw with the same velocity regardless of how long they’ve done it.
I suspect Snooker with imparting the necessary amount of spin on the ball would be the same.
		
Click to expand...

Fallon Sherrock?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 2, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Darts are out. They don’t have the hunter gatherer genes of throwing spears nor the narrower perception for focusing on targets as men do.
“You throw like a girl” still stands. They just don’t throw with the same velocity regardless of how long they’ve done it.
I suspect Snooker with imparting the necessary amount of spin on the ball would be the same.
		
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You do realise that they don't get bonus points in darts for how hard they throw it? As long as a woman can throw it hard enough to stick in the board that's all that matters. As Philarrow points out in the post after your's, Fallon Sherrock has proven that she can compete against the men in that sport.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 2, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Darts are out. They don’t have the hunter gatherer genes of throwing spears nor the narrower perception for focusing on targets as men do. 
“You throw like a girl” still stands. They just don’t throw with the same velocity regardless of how long they’ve done it. 
I suspect Snooker with imparting the necessary amount of spin on the ball would be the same.
		
Click to expand...

I guess eventually someone was bound to throw in a stupid stereotypical comment  .

 I didn't realise darts had to be thrown at maximum physical effort, or putting spin on a cueball required the same strength as a weightlifting champion. I always thought it was about technique and skill. Silly me.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 2, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			You do realise that they don't get bonus points in darts for how hard they throw it? As long as a woman can throw it hard enough to stick in the board that's all that matters. As Philarrow points out in the post after your's, Fallon Sherrock has proven that she can compete against the men in that sport.
		
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Sherrock can compete, the same way Lydia Ko could compete on the European tour and beat a lot of males.
Neither will win their respective tournaments though.
No you don’t get bonus points for speed but trajectory, arc and some speed all comes hand in hand. Something that Males have evolved perfectly to learn.
As males we have evolved physically and neurologically due to our genealogical history for most sports were if you present the best lady in the world and the best man to compete the man will win.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It would depend on the sport. Almost certainly not if it was boxing, cycling, swimming or other more physical activities. Absolutely no reason why not in sports such as snooker, darts, chess etc.
		
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Think we are in the always tricky subject of what is a sport? Darts, snooker and chess (think you just lobbed that in to make up your examples) are games, no physical exertion required so absolutely everyone can compete equally.
In “Sports” like horse racing women can and do beat the best men.
“Sports” like motor racing are dominated by Men but I think that’s because girls are not as interested as boys from a younger age so they don’t go on and work there way through the pyramid to the top. No reason they could not though.

But in its truest form Sport is normally a physical competitive activity, so at its highest level men and women cannot *fairly* compete against each other.


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## Slime (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Think we are in the always tricky subject of what is a sport? Darts, snooker and chess (think you just lobbed that in to make up your examples) are games, no physical exertion required so absolutely everyone can compete equally.
In “Sports” like horse racing women can and do beat the best men.
*“Sports” like motor racing are dominated by Men but I think that’s because girls are not as interested as boys from a younger age so they don’t go on and work there way through the pyramid to the top. No reason they could not though.*

But in its truest form Sport is normally a physical competitive activity, so at its highest level men and women cannot *fairly* compete against each other.
		
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They neither have the strength nor the stamina of men, therefore they'd always struggle.
Motor racing is extremely physical at the highest levels.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

Slime said:



			They neither have the strength nor the stamina of men, therefore they'd always struggle.
Motor racing is extremely physical at the highest levels.
		
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Without going off subject too much I think it’s been proven that women have better stamina than men so it’s just the strength thing and when I look at Lewis’ physique I don’t think wow that’s special.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 2, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Sherrock can compete, the same way Lydia Ko could compete on the European tour and beat a lot of males.
Neither will win their respective tournaments though.
No you don’t get bonus points for speed but trajectory, arc and some speed all comes hand in hand. Something that Males have evolved perfectly to learn.
As males we have evolved physically and neurologically due to our genealogical history for most sports were if you present the best lady in the world and the best man to compete the man will win.
		
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Are you actually genuine with this? I thought your first post was tongue in cheek 😳


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## Slime (Apr 2, 2022)

I'm still hoping that 2blue gives their opinion on the subject, as the only one to vote 'Yes',as I really am genuinely interested.
Unless the vote was 'just for a laugh', but I don't think so.


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## Dando (Apr 2, 2022)

Slime said:



			They neither have the strength nor the stamina of men, therefore they'd always struggle.
Motor racing is extremely physical at the highest levels.
		
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I’m not sure Danica Patrick would agree


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## Captainron (Apr 2, 2022)

Still waiting for @2blue to put his thoughts across on this issue. He clearly has a different opinion to the majority on here. Would be nice to hear why he thinks/believes that they should be allowed to compete.


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## Orikoru (Apr 2, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			More or less laughable than the alternative of watching transitioned female athletes beating birth female athletes?  Yes, it would be a small field but at least they would be competing against their peers and any win would be properly acknowledged; as it stands any victory that a transitioned female athlete achieves is tainted for me, and I suspect the vast majority.

This is the opinion of someone with first hand experience of the subject;

Among those standing by Navratilova: her former tennis coach, who's also a world-renowned eye doctor, still practicing in her mid-80s. This doctor drew on her understanding of the science, citing medical journals. As she reaffirms months later in a deep, authoritative voice: "It is just biology. Men have 10 times the amount of testosterone that normal women have. [The peer-reviewed journal _Clinical Chemistry _has that number at seven or eight times.] Now you want to get rid of that testosterone? O.K., but then it is going to take a couple of years for that to equilibrate. And men still have a larger frame with a larger cardiac output, a larger lung capacity."

https://www.si.com/tennis/2019/06/2...ntity-politics-transgender-where-are-they-now

Click to expand...

This is what I still can't understand. Surely research is being done to categorically prove the advantages a trans athlete might have? But we're not seeing it anywhere and sports governors are basically making it up with minor rules about suppressing testosterone which is only the tip of the iceberg. Are the scientific studies being silenced to not upset LGBT groups??


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			This is what I still can't understand. Surely research is being done to categorically prove the advantages a trans athlete might have? But we're not seeing it anywhere and sports governors are basically making it up with minor rules about suppressing testosterone which is only the tip of the iceberg. Are the scientific studies being silenced to not upset LGBT groups??
		
Click to expand...

And, if research IS still being done, why not just say we need to await the outcome of that research before allowing trans-female athletes to compete with natural born women? 

If it's not still ongoing...why not? 

I read a story about the cyclist yesterday and I really felt sorry for her. She's clearly finding this whole thing difficult to deal with emotionally. But my view on that is that she is also a victim of the lack of clarity and firm decision making. Nobody is being helped by this daft halfway house approach currently being employed. 

Get the research done, make a decision, publish it all, then stick to it. Until then, stick with natural born categories.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 2, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you actually genuine with this? I thought your first post was tongue in cheek 😳
		
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Am I genuine that women are better than men at certain things,  Men better than women at certain things? Yes, yes I am. 
It’s the way we have evolved, evolved to have certain traits, strengths, weaknesses  and characteristics to survive since we are still animals. 

On our way home earlier and went to a drive through Starbucks I’d never been to. I was driving looking for the order point but the other half said I’d driven past it. I missed it because as a male my perception is narrow from my hunting genes. 
My missus spotted it because she has a wider perception and differentiates colours better being a female.


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

Whilst I agree with the principle that some of the natural differences between men and women can be explained by our evolution as Hunters/Gatherers, to present it in such absolute terms is just a bit silly, especially with the examples you are using. 

There could be a thousand reasons why one person notices something that another person misses, to suggest it is only because of our traditional roles through evolution really rather oversimplifies a highly complex issue.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Still waiting for @2blue to put his thoughts across on this issue. He clearly has a different opinion to the majority on here. Would be nice to hear why he thinks/believes that they should be allowed to compete.
		
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Almost definitely lost in a woke rabbit hole. Who to favour, natural woman like your wives and sisters or men with mental disorders? 🤔


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2022)

louise_a said:



			The idea of having a competitions for trans competitors is really laughable, there are only a handful in each sport. That said I don't know the answer is, I am just glad that I play golf where any perceived physical advantage is by far outweighed by the skill aspect.
		
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And, I guess the handicap takes care of enhanced, or maybe, reduced ability. In golf, at mostly our level, the handicap system would probably level out strength advantages or disadvantages


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Almost definitely lost in a woke rabbit hole. Who to favour, natural woman like your wives and sisters or men with mental disorders? 🤔
		
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That last line is bang out of order. 👎
As well as showing total ignorance of the biology involved in being transgender. 🙄 
If you don't understand something, why not try to find out and improve your understanding, rather then making nasty comments?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 2, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Am I genuine that women are better than men at certain things,  Men better than women at certain things? Yes, yes I am. 
It’s the way we have evolved, evolved to have certain traits, strengths, weaknesses  and characteristics to survive since we are still animals. 

On our way home earlier and went to a drive through Starbucks I’d never been to. I was driving looking for the order point but the other half said I’d driven past it. I missed it because as a male my perception is narrow from my hunting genes. 
My missus spotted it because she has a wider perception and differentiates colours better being a female.
		
Click to expand...

It could just be because you are a crap driver.

Or, just maybe, the fact you were driving meant most of your focus was on the road ahead of you. Hers wasn't. 

Your example provides zero evidence about the potential differences between men and women.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			That last line is bang out of order. 👎
As well as showing total ignorance of the biology involved in being transgender. 🙄
If you don't understand something, why not try to find out and improve your understanding, rather then making nasty comments?
		
Click to expand...

Is it? I find the whole transgender fad just another form of misogyny (and that really is “bang out of order”) Apart from extremely rare intersex the vast majority of people are born male or female. Being born male and *thinking* you are a woman is a mental issue. Indulging their delusions only makes it worse for real women who have had to fight for equality (yet still find men knocking them down every chance they get)
Plenty of impressive women in the US right now including the first every Woman VP but no, USA today makes a transgender man one of the “Woman of the year” How insulting is that? 
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/6600134001


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## Slime (Apr 2, 2022)

Pin-seeker, may we please have your views?


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Is it? I find the whole transgender fad just another form of misogyny (and that really is “bang out of order”) Apart from extremely rare intersex the vast majority of people are born male or female. Being born male and *thinking* you are a woman is a mental issue. Indulging their delusions only makes it worse for real women who have had to fight for equality (yet still find men knocking them down every chance they get)
Plenty of impressive women in the US right now including the first every Woman VP but no, USA today makes a transgender man one of the “Woman of the year” How insulting is that?
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/6600134001

Click to expand...

Again, just repeatedly showing your ignorance doesn't make you any less wrong.

I'm guessing it's not actually your fault you don't understand the science behind how people can be born into the wrong body - as opposed to the only other option, which is that you're just choosing to be bigoted? - but you really should try to learn more before you continue to display this ignorance. Using words like "fad", "insulting" just makes you sound a bit thick to be honest.

You might wish to believe it's "a mental thing" but the world's leading geneticists and biologists disagree with you. I wonder which of you knows more? 🤔🙄

Try starting with reading about the hormone changes that take place in the first trimester of a foetuses life. Or thinking for just one second about why men have nipples? Or the various other things that don't quite go 'to plan' during the development of a foetus, such as conjoined twins. It's really not that hard to understand how it happens that people are born into the wrong sex body.

If you are just ignorant because you don't know these things, fair enough, but go and read about them to make yourself less ignorant.
If, on the other hand, you are willfully ignorant because it suits your prejudices, then do one. This is a thread about whether trans athletes should be able to compete, not about whether they have the right to exist. 🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 2, 2022)

Guys, can we discuss this as grownups without the personal insults or digs
Please


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It could just be because you are a crap driver.

*Or, just maybe, the fact you were driving meant most of your focus was on the road ahead of you. Hers wasn't.*

Your example provides zero evidence about the potential differences between men and women.
		
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I’ll use your example then. 
I was trying to negotiate the usual tight drive through road, so yes most of my focus was on that. 
Unfortunately being male the part that connects my left and right hemispheres is small and compartmentalised allowing me to focus on only one thing at once. 
My partner was figuring out what she wanted on the app menu at the time but being female the part that connects her left and right hemispheres is larger allowing her to multitask and focus on more things. 
Something men can’t cope doing. 

There are no “potential differences”. WE are biologically different inside and out.


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			On our way home earlier and went to a drive through Starbucks I’d never been to. I was driving looking for the order point but the other half said I’d driven past it. I missed it because as a male my perception is narrow from my hunting genes. 
My missus spotted it because she has a wider perception and differentiates colours better being a female.
		
Click to expand...

........................... and possibly because she wasn't driving a large lump of car which may require a small amount of attention?


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys, can we discuss this as grownups without the personal insults or digs
Please
		
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Are you suggesting that I'm grown up ......................🤔🤔


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Again, just repeatedly showing your ignorance doesn't make you any less wrong.

I'm guessing it's not actually your fault you don't understand the science behind how people can be born into the wrong body - as opposed to the only other option, which is that you're just choosing to be bigoted? - but you really should try to learn more before you continue to display this ignorance. Using words like "fad", "insulting" just makes you sound a bit thick to be honest.

You might wish to believe it's "a mental thing" but the world's leading geneticists and biologists disagree with you. I wonder which of you knows more? 🤔🙄

Try starting with reading about the hormone changes that take place in the first trimester of a foetuses life. Or thinking for just one second about why men have nipples? Or the various other things that don't quite go 'to plan' during the development of a foetus, such as conjoined twins. It's really not that hard to understand how it happens that people are born into the wrong sex body.

If you are just ignorant because you don't know these things, fair enough, but go and read about them to make yourself less ignorant.
If, on the other hand, you are willfully ignorant because it suits your prejudices, then do one. This is a thread about whether trans athletes should be able to compete, not about whether they have the right to exist. 🙄
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂

That statement might have worked when you was a tutor at the local poli Phil but not here.

As this poll shows I think my view is seated in reality… trans people have a right to exist but they are *not* women and have absolutely no right to compete against real women.


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## bobmac (Apr 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys, can we discuss this as grownups without the personal insults or digs
Please
		
Click to expand...

I guess not


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 2, 2022)

Right
I’m going to say this once and once only

This is an emotive subject and people of different ages are likely to have differing views.

I will not tolerate insulting posts, words like sanctimonious, pathetic, etc will only wind people up and will be rewarded with infractions.

Please discuss the ideas and opinions without resorting to personal attacks

Last warning


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			😂😂😂

That statement might have worked when you was a tutor at the local poli Phil but not here.

As this poll shows I think my view is seated in reality… trans people have a right to exist but they are *not* women and have absolutely no right to compete against real women.
		
Click to expand...

Look at my vote. Or at my posts on this thread. I absolutely don't agree that trans athletes should be able to compete - at least not unless scientific research proves conclusively that it's a level playing field... which I personally doubt will ever happen. What I am arguing with you about is your assertion that being trans is simply a mental health issue. The science is really very simple - as I've already said, just take a second to ask why you have nipples. 

Oh, and I've never been a tutor in a poli? Not sure where you've got that from?


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Right
I’m going to say this once and once only

This is an emotive subject and people of different ages are likely to have differing views.

I will not tolerate insulting posts, words like sanctimonious, pathetic, etc will only wind people up and will be rewarded with infractions.

Please discuss the ideas and opinions without resorting to personal attacks

Last warning
		
Click to expand...

Ok but did you not find post #203 insulting at all?


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Look at my vote. Or at my posts on this thread. I absolutely don't agree that trans athletes should be able to compete - at least not unless scientific research proves conclusively that it's a level playing field... which I personally doubt will ever happen. What I am arguing with you about is your assertion that being trans is simply a mental health issue. The science is really very simple - as I've already said, just take a second to ask why you have nipples.

Oh, and I've never been a tutor in a poli? Not sure where you've got that from?
		
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I know we were all female before some of us were “made” male and I know that some fall between the cracks, but the “inbetweeners” are massively over represented at the moment to the detriment of real women/girls and it’s just wrong.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Ok but did you not find post #203 insulting at all?
		
Click to expand...

If you are referring to the “ignorant” statements then yes a bit, 

But ignorance in itself is not insulting, it means a set of ideas that one was not aware of, so isn’t the same.

Expressing trans issues as a mental illness really isn’t helpful.


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## Dando (Apr 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Right
I’m going to say this once and once only

This is an emotive subject and people of different ages are likely to have differing views.

I will not tolerate insulting posts, words like sanctimonious, pathetic, etc will only wind people up and will be rewarded with infractions.

Please discuss the ideas and opinions without resorting to personal attacks

Last warning
		
Click to expand...

“I’m going to say this once and once only”

Why did I read this how Michelle from allo allo would’ve said it?


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			I know we were all female before some of us were “made” male and I know that some fall between the cracks, but the “inbetweeners” are massively over represented at the moment to the detriment of real women/girls and it’s just wrong.
		
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And that's where we will just have to agree to disagree. 👍 
Given that this change from female embryo to male is entirely down to a single hormone acting on a single chromosome, and that it happens at such a formative time in the development of the embryo - when the embryo is incredibly fragile and miscarriages are all too frequent, I actually think it's a bit odd that it's so rare.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			If you are referring to the “ignorant” statements then yes a bit,

But ignorance in itself is not insulting, it means a set of ideas that one was not aware of, so isn’t the same.

Expressing trans issues as a *mental illness* really isn’t helpful.
		
Click to expand...

But Phil, that is my view. I think it is a mental issue. (I haven’t said they should not exist like PhilA intimated was my view) I just think they get too much air time.

Re Phil’s earlier post, I think it was _making a show of being morally and intellectually  superior to other people. _(That’s the definition of sanctimonious btw)


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 2, 2022)

Dando said:



			“I’m going to say this once and once only”

Why did I read this how Michelle from allo allo would’ve said it?
		
Click to expand...

Because you are an old git 🤭😂


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## louise_a (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Is it? I find the whole transgender fad just another form of misogyny (and that really is “bang out of order”) Apart from extremely rare intersex the vast majority of people are born male or female. Being born male and *thinking* you are a woman is a mental issue. Indulging their delusions only makes it worse for real women who have had to fight for equality (yet still find men knocking them down every chance they get)
Plenty of impressive women in the US right now including the first every Woman VP but no, USA today makes a transgender man one of the “Woman of the year” How insulting is that?
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/6600134001

Click to expand...

Fad!!! you havent got a Flippin
 clue!  Do you actually know what it takes to indulge in this FAD? you risk losing everything in your life, you have no idea how people will react, you risk being  assaulted and worse, some think suicide is a better option but yeah we just do it for  a laugh as its the latest fad!


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## sunshine (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Ok but did you not find post #203 insulting at all?
		
Click to expand...

Post #203 is just stating facts.


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## 2blue (Apr 2, 2022)

louise_a said:



			Fad!!! you havent got a Flippin
clue!  Do you actually know what it takes to indulge in this FAD? you risk losing everything in your life, you have no idea how people will react, you risk being assaulted and worse, some think suicide is a better option but yeah we just do it for a laugh as its the latest fad!
		
Click to expand...

I think it was 1972 when a friend's daughter, Imogen, with 2 sisters became Steve & he started to ask me about the customs & procedures of 'men' when in the local Sports Hall changing rooms etc & taking great pleasure in getting to the bar first & ordering the drinks for the ladies....  little things like that he considered pretty important. 
The Sunday gutter Press harassed him endlessly. However, the strength he drew from friends & family accepting the decision prevented the suicide he'd considered. 
Yeah, the pretty early days of such...  couldn't get his Passport changed as well as lots of other formal type stuff....   'tis an experience I'll never forget having shared in a rather small way.
As regards the vote...  I think I may have voted in an unintended way.....  however it's been quite illuminating, so haven't bothered to change it


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			...
Plenty of impressive women in the US right now including the first every Woman VP but no, USA today makes a transgender man one of the “Woman of the year” How insulting is that?
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/6600134001

Click to expand...

Indeed, truly insulting.....that it has taken so long!
Oh! And the 1st ever female VP is a step forward too - especially compared to the likes of Dan Quayle!


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, truly insulting.....that it has taken so long!
Oh! And the 1st ever female VP is a step forward too - especially compared to the likes of Dan Quayle!
		
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She may be a lady but is she a competent VP in post through merit...


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## Fade and Die (Apr 3, 2022)

drdel said:



			She may be a lady but is she a competent VP in post through merit...
		
Click to expand...

To discuss is verboten 🤫


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Again, just repeatedly showing your ignorance doesn't make you any less wrong.

I'm guessing it's not actually your fault you don't understand the science behind how people can be born into the wrong body - as opposed to the only other option, which is that you're just choosing to be bigoted? - but you really should try to learn more before you continue to display this ignorance. Using words like "fad", "insulting" just makes you sound a bit thick to be honest.

You might wish to believe it's "a mental thing" but the world's leading geneticists and biologists disagree with you. I wonder which of you knows more? 🤔🙄

Try starting with reading about the hormone changes that take place in the first trimester of a foetuses life. Or thinking for just one second about why men have nipples? Or the various other things that don't quite go 'to plan' during the development of a foetus, such as conjoined twins. It's really not that hard to understand how it happens that people are born into the wrong sex body.

If you are just ignorant because you don't know these things, fair enough, but go and read about them to make yourself less ignorant.
If, on the other hand, you are willfully ignorant because it suits your prejudices, then do one. This is a thread about whether trans athletes should be able to compete, not about whether they have the right to exist. 🙄
		
Click to expand...

There is plenty of science that relates to the underlying point you seem to be trying to make, that most species, including humans, being with an ambiguous gender, usually female, and then gender emerges through various related biological processes, which in some cases do not end up quite as definitively binary as perhaps intended. I am not sure you can jump from that biology to say that some people are born into the wrong body. You need to be careful not to conflate several broad groups into one. 

Hermaphrodites, intersex and people with hyperandrogenism have been well recognised for years. The basis for their situation is entirely and demonstrably biological. These people are generally not seeking to further alter the expression of their gender, that just fall into a non-binary category which leads to complications in various parts of everyday life. 

Some of the currently controversial athletes do not seem to fall into this category, though, and instead fall into a category sometimes seen in medical circles with perfectly normal (for their presumed gender) hormone levels and normal genetics but a desire to be assigned to another gender. This sometimes occurs quite late in life, e.g. Frank Warren and Bruce Jenner. The basis for their situation is much less clearly biological and has elements, perhaps substantial, of psychological origin. That doesn't mean they are less important or need less intervention.

Moving from male to female is much more common, and involves receiving female sex hormones to soften the masculine appearance, and usually living "as a woman" for a period of time, before any surgery will be considered. It is not uncommon for such people to regret their change and want to go back, which is tricky if they have had surgery.

As far as trans athletes are concerned, I think not is fairly clear that gender reassignment does not reverse all the effects of earlier development, so male to female athletes still retain some muscle mass, height or other biomechanics advantages. Suppressing testosterone is not enough to negate the previous gender advantage.


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## phillarrow (Apr 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			There is plenty of science that relates to the underlying point you seem to be trying to make, that most species, including humans, being with an ambiguous gender, usually female, and then gender emerges through various related biological processes, which in some cases do not end up quite as definitively binary as perhaps intended. *I am not sure you can jump from that biology to say that some people are born into the wrong body*. You need to be careful not to conflate several broad groups into one.

Hermaphrodites, intersex and people with hyperandrogenism have been well recognised for years. The basis for their situation is entirely and demonstrably biological. These people are generally not seeking to further alter the expression of their gender, that just fall into a non-binary category which leads to complications in various parts of everyday life.

Some of the currently controversial athletes do not seem to fall into this category, though, and instead fall into a category sometimes seen in medical circles with perfectly normal (for their presumed gender) hormone levels and normal genetics but a desire to be assigned to another gender. This sometimes occurs quite late in life, e.g. Frank Warren and Bruce Jenner. The basis for their situation is much less clearly biological and has elements, perhaps substantial, of psychological origin. That doesn't mean they are less important or need less intervention.

Moving from male to female is much more common, and involves receiving female sex hormones to soften the masculine appearance, and usually living "as a woman" for a period of time, before any surgery will be considered. It is not uncommon for such people to regret their change and want to go back, which is tricky if they have had surgery.

As far as trans athletes are concerned, I think not is fairly clear that gender reassignment does not reverse all the effects of earlier development, so male to female athletes still retain some muscle mass, height or other biomechanics advantages. Suppressing testosterone is not enough to negate the previous gender advantage.
		
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I agree with almost everything you've written here, apart from the bit I've highlighted in bold. 

There's research going back almost a decade now that suggests our sex is defined both by our reproductive organs and our brain structure and function. That same research - repeated several times in different parts of the world - has provided evidence that pre-treatment transexuals have brain structures and functioning that are more aligned to their chosen identity than their reproductive parts. 
In these cases, I would say that the evidence would strongly suggest that those people were born into the wrong body. 
Maybe it's a phrase that oversimplifies the complexity of the issue, but I can't think of a better one?


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I agree with almost everything you've written here, apart from the bit I've highlighted in bold.

There's research going back almost a decade now that suggests our sex is defined both by our reproductive organs and our brain structure and function. That same research - repeated several times in different parts of the world - has provided evidence that pre-treatment transexuals have brain structures and functioning that are more aligned to their chosen identity than their reproductive parts.
In these cases, I would say that the evidence would strongly suggest that those people were born into the wrong body.
Maybe it's a phrase that oversimplifies the complexity of the issue, but I can't think of a better one?
		
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Can you cite an example of this evidence?

It would not be surprising if there was evidence of an association between a characteristic and some physiological or anatomical feature, but it is very likely that precisely the same feature can be observed in many people who have no desire to change their gender. are they also in the wrong bodies? By looking at pre-treatment transexuals, you may get a very narrow perspective. The evidence would be more useful if it could predict who would want to be a transexual, and what if pre-treatment transexuals do not exhibit this feature? Are they rejected for treatment because they are in the right bodies already?


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## phillarrow (Apr 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Can you cite an example of this evidence?

It would not be surprising if there was evidence of an association between a characteristic and some physiological or anatomical feature, but it is very likely that precisely the same feature can be observed in many people who have no desire to change their gender. are they also in the wrong bodies? By looking at pre-treatment transexuals, you may get a very narrow perspective. The evidence would be more useful if it could predict who would want to be a transexual, and what if pre-treatment transexuals do not exhibit this feature? Are they rejected for treatment because they are in the right bodies already?
		
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Like most things, the reality of the situation is far more complex than could ever be managed by simply saying - "Have this scan and it will tell you who you are." You know that, I know that, and we both know that each other knows that. 

I'm not for one second suggesting that all men have a brain like X and all women have a brain like Y, whereas all trans people have a brain like....  
Of course it's far more complex than that. However, the fact that differences have been observed suggests that there is more to being a man than simply having a willy, and, in my opinion, I think we just need to accept the evidence that we are far less binary than we used to believe. 
Why should sex be so different from something like handedness, for example? 

In terms of citations, I don't have the exact articles I've read to hand, but just googling "The difference between the trans and cis brain" brings up lots of articles from Scientifica America and Nature. These give reference to the research they are based upon.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 3, 2022)

@Ethan Mrs Warren took to the bottle quite heavily upon reading your post. Thankfully Frank was able to convince her with decent speed that it was his competitor, Frank Maloney, who had transitioned to Kellie Maloney, not himself 😄


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## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2022)

drdel said:



			She may be a lady but is she a competent VP in post through merit...
		
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I seriously doubt *any* VP is in the post purely through 'merit' as defined elsewhere, though she seems an entirely capable choice - certainly a better choice than Sarah Palin was by McCain. And as I mentioned earlier, the bar is pretty low, given the choice of Dan Quayle by 'Dubya'!


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## Fade and Die (Apr 3, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Like most things, the reality of the situation is far more complex than could ever be managed by simply saying - "Have this scan and it will tell you who you are." You know that, I know that, and we both know that each other knows that.

I'm not for one second suggesting that all men have a brain like X and all women have a brain like Y, whereas all trans people have a brain like.... 
Of course it's far more complex than that. However, the fact that differences have been observed suggests that there is more to being a man than simply having a willy, and, in my opinion, I think we just need to accept the evidence that we are far less binary than we used to believe.
Why should sex be so different from something like handedness, for example?

In terms of citations, I don't have the exact articles I've read to hand, but just googling "The difference between the trans and cis brain" brings up lots of articles from Scientifica America and Nature. These give reference to the research they are based upon.
		
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😂😂😂
Don’t you love it when a googling internet expert meets a real expert? 😆


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



@Ethan Mrs Warren took to the bottle quite heavily upon reading your post. Thankfully Frank was able to convince her with decent speed that it was his competitor, Frank Maloney, who had transitioned to Kellie Maloney, not himself 😄
		
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Indeed. Not a boxing fan, so apologies to anyone offended or put into a state of apoplexy.


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## phillarrow (Apr 3, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			😂😂😂
Don’t you love it when a googling internet expert meets a real expert? 😆
		
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How are you getting on with that suggestion that we should discuss things like grown ups? 🙄

You have no idea who I am, what I do for a living, or why I have needed to learn so much about this issue. But carry on making your ignorant assumptions, they are very revealing. 👍

P.S. You can take the word "ignorant" in that sentence in whatever way you wish. 😉


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Like most things, the reality of the situation is far more complex than could ever be managed by simply saying - "Have this scan and it will tell you who you are." You know that, I know that, and we both know that each other knows that.

I'm not for one second suggesting that all men have a brain like X and all women have a brain like Y, whereas all trans people have a brain like.... 
Of course it's far more complex than that. However, the fact that differences have been observed suggests that there is more to being a man than simply having a willy, and, in my opinion, I think we just need to accept the evidence that we are far less binary than we used to believe.
Why should sex be so different from something like handedness, for example?

In terms of citations, I don't have the exact articles I've read to hand, but just googling "The difference between the trans and cis brain" brings up lots of articles from Scientifica America and Nature. These give reference to the research they are based upon.
		
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I will take a look later, but I wonder if starting with pre-identified candidates for transgender is the right approach. It would be interesting to blindly look at brain and identify characteristics, then latterly attempt to associate them with transgender intent. I suspect that would be a wash, though. 

Handedness is a very different characteristic, though, and is largely hard wired in a reasonably simple way. People can learn to use the other hand, but the hard wiring element will stick. There is some debate that some of the perceived brain differences result from cultural adaptation rather than being primary aetiological factors. Brain plasticity and brain changes are well recognised.


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## IanM (Apr 3, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Post #203 is just stating facts.
		
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The final part is important.   It's about participation in sport.

As I see it, if there were no inherent sporting physical advantages of starting life as a bloke,  there'd be no discussion.  Clearly there are,  so there's a problem.

Its a bit like allowing a Major winner to play you in the summer knockout with no shots given.   You'd stay home, unless you fancy going for 10 holes and a beer!


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I will take a look later, but I wonder if starting with pre-identified candidates for transgender is the right approach. It would be interesting to blindly look at brain and identify characteristics, then latterly attempt to associate them with transgender intent. I suspect that would be a wash, though.

Handedness is a very different characteristic, though, and is largely hard wired in a reasonably simple way. People can learn to use the other hand, but the hard wiring element will stick. There is some debate that some of the perceived brain differences result from cultural adaptation rather than being primary aetiological factors. Brain plasticity and brain changes are well recognised.
		
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You've identified an area which has challenged analysts for decades. The classic "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" is a dilemma in such a sensitive subject and many observers come with preconceived and beliefs about the results

By way of example and issues: take a look at the proportions of different gender representations in broadcasting it would give a false overstated impression of the real proportions in society and thus people's expectations for Schools and the potential impact on young impressionable kids.


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2022)

IanM said:



			The final part is important.   It's about participation in sport.

As I see it, if there were no inherent sporting physical advantages of starting life as a bloke,  there'd be no discussion.  Clearly there are,  so there's a problem.

Its a bit like allowing a Major winner to play you in the summer knockout with no shots given.   You'd stay home, unless you fancy going for 10 holes and a beer!
		
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Whether or not the brain anatomy or wiring is similar or different between trans and cis-gender people, and I think it is a bit more complicated than presented above, the physiology, muscle mass, height etc, are not, and do not regress (fully) with testosterone suppression.


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2022)

drdel said:



			You've identified an area which has challenged analysts for decades. The classic "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" is a dilemma in such a sensitive subject and many observers come with preconceived and beliefs about the results

By way of example and issues: take a look at the proportions of different gender representations in broadcasting would give a false overstated impression of the real proportions in society and thus people's expectations for Schools and the potential impact on young impressionable kids.
		
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There is a study type called case-control, where you (usually) look at people with a condition and compare them to people without, but who are matched to share as many relevant risk factors as possible (age, gender, smoking status, whatever). It is a useful technique but suffers from at least one big problem, that you must know the variables that matter and on which you match cases and controls. More than the odd study has turned up an interesting finding later explained away by an aetiological factor unknown (and therefore not matched for) at the time. For that reason, these studies are considered to be unable to prove anything but may generate hypotheses for later study in a prospective study.


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			There is a study type called case-control, where you (usually) look at people with a condition and compare them to people without, but who are matched to share as many relevant risk factors as possible (age, gender, smoking status, whatever). It is a useful technique but suffers from at least one big problem, that you must know the variables that matter and on which you match cases and controls. More than the odd study has turned up an interesting finding later explained away by an aetiological factor unknown (and therefore not matched for) at the time. For that reason, these studies are considered to be unable to prove anything but may generate hypotheses for later study in a prospective study.
		
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Agreed. Once published (in this subject area especially) the general media rarely grasps the complexity and further perpetuates the fallacy.


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2022)

Many years ago (some pros were still playing persimmon woods), before terms like cis-gender existed, I worked in psychiatry, and for a while did sessions in a clinic which saw people with various complaints which included what would now be called gender dysfunction. Because gender reassignment is a big deal and may include risks and points of no return, one of the big priorities was to determine if the anxiety, distress and depression that some of the patients clearly had was really due to their perception of being in the wrong bodies, as it were. So some deep counselling/analysis was conducted and it often emerged that it really wasn't the core problem and something else was uncovered. Equally, sometimes people had reassignment and it didn't change their mindset, sometimes made it worse. On the other hand, I saw some people who had successful reassignment, usually male to female, and did well. Of course, this didn't include people with physical intersex conditions, whose issues are more endocrinological than psychological.


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## DaveR (Apr 3, 2022)

There should be a separate category for transgender athletes, end of.


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Many years ago (some pros were still playing persimmon woods), before terms like cis-gender existed, I worked in psychiatry, and for a while did sessions in a clinic which saw people with various complaints which included what would now be called gender dysfunction. Because gender reassignment is a big deal and may include risks and points of no return, one of the big priorities was to determine if the anxiety, distress and depression that some of the patients clearly had was really due to their perception of being in the wrong bodies, as it were. So some deep counselling/analysis was conducted and it often emerged that it really wasn't the core problem and something else was uncovered. Equally, sometimes people had reassignment and it didn't change their mindset, sometimes made it worse. On the other hand, I saw some people who had successful reassignment, usually male to female, and did well. Of course, this didn't include people with physical intersex conditions, whose issues are more endocrinological than psychological.
		
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That's the bit that worries me when kids are getting reassignment treatments.


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## Captainron (Jun 19, 2022)

See they have a sensible ruling on this! Must have transitioned by age 12 to compete as a female. Also creating an “open” category for those who transition later on. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450


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## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2022)

Captainron said:



			See they have a sensible ruling on this! Must have transitioned by age 12 to compete as a female. Also creating an “open” category for those who transition later on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

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Exactly as it should be imo. Will likely put 'late realisers' at a disadvantage, but the 'open' category allows them to compete if desired and obvious mismatches are almost certainly eliminated.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Exactly as it should be imo. Will likely put 'late realisers' at a disadvantage, but the 'open' category allows them to compete if desired and obvious mismatches are almost certainly eliminated.
		
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Will anyone actually compete in the open category though? Has that category just been announced for show in reality?


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## louise_a (Jun 19, 2022)

Creating an open category is just a cop out as there are so few transgendered people wanting to compete in the first place.


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## Foxholer (Jun 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Will anyone actually compete in the open category though? Has that category just been announced for show in reality?
		
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I think they will - such as the guy/gal who seems to have triggered this action.
But, imo, it won't be a high profile category - at least not in the short term. Swimming will get back to having 'pure' competitions again cf 'anomolies' producing seemingly outstanding results.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 19, 2022)

louise_a said:



			Creating an open category is just a cop out as there are so few transgendered people wanting to compete in the first place.
		
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So what’s the answer then? To allow transgendered males to compete as female athletes completely destroys the level playing field for birth female athletes, so how else do we accommodate transgendered males?


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## sweaty sock (Jun 20, 2022)

So are there 3 categories, Male, Female, Open.  Or are there just 2, Female, Open.

If there are 3 then the open category is a bit pointless  so I'm assuming theres only 2 and anyone whos gone through male puberty just end up with the blokes?


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## cliveb (Jun 20, 2022)

Captainron said:



			See they have a sensible ruling on this! Must have transitioned by age 12 to compete as a female. Also creating an “open” category for those who transition later on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

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This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition. For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 20, 2022)

cliveb said:



			This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition. For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.
		
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I would say it’s irresponsible if any country allowed for 12-year olds to undergo such procedures. Probably put it in place knowing that it will effectively put an end to the issue.


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## Ethan (Jun 20, 2022)

cliveb said:



			This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition. For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.
		
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It is not a recommendation to transition early, it simply recognises that once pubertal changes have occurred, it is too late to allow (particular male-female) athletes to fairly compete with biological females.


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## louise_a (Jun 20, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			So what’s the answer then? To allow transgendered males to compete as female athletes completely destroys the level playing field for birth female athletes, so how else do we accommodate transgendered males?
		
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I do not know the answer, and fyi a transgendered male is someone born female


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## cliveb (Jun 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It is not a recommendation to transition early, it simply recognises that once pubertal changes have occurred, it is too late to allow (particular male-female) athletes to fairly compete with biological females.
		
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In which case if the governing body doesn't believe post-pubertals can compete fairly, and if it doesn't want to suggest that pre-pubertals could transition, then why not just ban any transitioned swimmer from competing in the female catagory?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 20, 2022)

cliveb said:



			In which case if the governing body doesn't believe post-pubertals can compete fairly, and *if it doesn't want to suggest that pre-pubertals could transition*, then why not just ban any transitioned swimmer from competing in the female catagory?
		
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This is probably because the governing body for swimming recognises it is not in the position to state the suitable age at which a person can transition. That is up to medical professionals, and probably government policies, to decide what is and isn't responsible. If the swimming governing body just cast a blanket ban on all transitioned swimmers, and then a case came about in which an athlete had transitioned as a child for whatever reason, then they'd have to justify why this athlete could not compete if the only data they have is related to people that transition post puberty.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 20, 2022)

cliveb said:



*This disturbs me. I don't believe anyone under 12 is in a position to know if they should transition.* For a sporting body to put in place a rule that might possibly encourage a child to make a life-changing decision seems irresponsible.
		
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For me that is not the disturbing part. The disturbing ( If that is the way to say it) part is that some kids under 12 have already choosen whether they want to be gay or straight. In fact I posted about this the other week. I talked about this to the lads last week on the course. One of the guys told me that through his second marriage he has a child in the first year at comp. The school is obviously discussing race, multicultural society and amongst others sexuality. They are taught it is ok to be male, female, gay or in fact non binary and quite a few have already chosen that route. I don’t have a problem with that whatsoever. But as in the case of Dame Kelly Holmes she has stated it is a massive decision even as an adult yet 12 years olds that cannot even legally have sex are choosing there sexuality. 
Re children making a decision on transition, I don’t think many will be swayed by the fact they cannot compete at swimming as adults if they do or don’t transition. That said at least swimming have left open the door for some to compete in the future.


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## Orikoru (Jun 20, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			For me that is not the disturbing part. The disturbing ( If that is the way to say it) part is that* some kids under 12 have already choosen whether they want to be gay or straight.* In fact I posted about this the other week. I talked about this to the lads last week on the course. One of the guys told me that through his second marriage he has a child in the first year at comp. The school is obviously discussing race, multicultural society and amongst others sexuality. They are taught it is ok to be male, female, gay or in fact non binary and quite a few have already chosen that route. I don’t have a problem with that whatsoever. But as in the case of Dame Kelly Holmes she has stated it is a massive decision even as an adult yet 12 years olds that cannot even legally have sex are choosing there sexuality.
Re children making a decision on transition, I don’t think many will be swayed by the fact they cannot compete at swimming as adults if they do or don’t transition. That said at least swimming have left open the door for some to compete in the future.
		
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 I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt with poor wording, but you know that's not how it works, right?? 



cliveb said:



			In which case if the governing body doesn't believe post-pubertals can compete fairly, and if it doesn't want to suggest that pre-pubertals could transition, then why not just ban any transitioned swimmer from competing in the female catagory?
		
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I agree with you. I really don't think children should be thinking about transitioning as it's such a massive decision, I'd prefer they didn't even acknowledge that by the way they've worded it. I think there should be laws against transitioning as a child. How can you possibly know that unquestionably if you've not even gone through puberty?? Madness.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 20, 2022)

Orikoru said:



 *I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt with poor wording, but you know that's not how it works, right??*


I agree with you. I really don't think children should be thinking about transitioning as it's such a massive decision, I'd prefer they didn't even acknowledge that by the way they've worded it. I think there should be laws against transitioning as a child. How can you possibly know that unquestionably if you've not even gone through puberty?? Madness.
		
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https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/“-grandad-what-country-are-lesbians-from”.112209/

Try explaining that to a 10 yr old in primary school 😳👍


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## Orikoru (Jun 20, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/“-grandad-what-country-are-lesbians-from”.112209/

Try explaining that to a 10 yr old in primary school 😳👍
		
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I'm telling you you don't "choose whether you want to be gay or straight". That's not how it works. You just are what you are. People will realise they are gay at different ages but they've not _chosen _it.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2022)

louise_a said:



			I do not know the answer, and fyi a transgendered male is someone born female
		
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Thank you for the correction 👍


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## Oddsocks (Jun 20, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			More or less laughable than the alternative of watching transitioned female athletes beating birth female athletes?  Yes, it would be a small field but at least they would be competing against their peers and any win would be properly acknowledged; as it stands any victory that a transitioned female athlete achieves is tainted for me, and I suspect the vast majority.
		
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This was my and is my continuous thought on the subject. I don’t know the names so excuse me on this, but surely the swimmer feels a sense of hollowness on her accomplishment knowing that pre transition they were barely average at best?  Does she honestly wake up, look in the mirror and feel that she is the fastest female swimmer in the world?

If we look at the golf this weekend, most would agree (even on this forum) that Fitzpatrick is a very slim golfer who has worked hard to increase ball speeds and so on to improve he’s length, if he were to transition he would still be not far off the build of 50% of the LPGA players yet I don’t know many with 120+ mph ball speeds and that is a mix of technique and unfortunately make genetics.

There are many other sports where the highest performing sports women attempt make categories and are simply average by comparison , even in motorsports where it’s less about physical ability.

I’m a believer that born gender is the way to ensure that there is no grey area and if society is to adapt then it’s female or open categories.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 21, 2022)

Rugby League has now implemented a ban;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/61875651


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## Oddsocks (Jun 21, 2022)

At least they were short and clear stating further research is being carried out.


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## IanM (Jun 22, 2022)

I can't possibly get my head round all this having not been in the situation. 

Two things occur to me.

1) If you are wrestling with things like gender transition,  I'd have thought getting accepted into swimming comps wouldn't be a priority.   Unless it was your profession beforehand. 

2) The potential price of open access is  damage to womens' sport.    The physiological advantage of previously being male, is significant in many sports.

One group will lose out here.


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Rugby League has now implemented a ban;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/61875651

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Lol. Rapinoe (at the end of article) with the typical “progressive” woke argument that anyone who doesn’t agree with their backward logics is to “step back”.


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Lol. Rapinoe (at the end of article) with the typical “progressive” woke argument that anyone who doesn’t agree with their backward logics is to “step back”.
		
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Not surprised it was her who made that comment.
she comes across as an arrogant nasty piece of work


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## Orikoru (Jun 22, 2022)

Dando said:



			Not surprised it was her who made that comment.
she comes across as an arrogant nasty piece of work
		
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She's an idiot. Whenever I see a comment from her I just immediately think...


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Lol. Rapinoe (at the end of article) with the typical “progressive” woke argument that anyone who doesn’t agree with their backward logics is to “step back”.
		
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That seems, to me, more the author's/BBC's issue as the Rapinoe article was unelated/only tenuously related to the particular article. If anything, it should have been as a link underneath the article as opposed to within it. Bad/biased journalism imo, which is rare to see from the Beeb.


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