# Another question for Builder/Structural engineer



## vkurup (Jan 13, 2015)

One of the things we are considering is to put a wrap around extension around the kitchen area.  The current kitchen is roughly 320x320.  We have space to double the size.. i.e. go 650x650 (can add another meter if budgets and neigbhours permit).  The idea would be to create the main family room with open plan kitchen, informal dinning and entertainment/TV area.  The idea has one fly in the ointment.  As this kitchen is the corner of the house, we have a pillar supporting the house at that point.  

We had an architect look at it, and he said that it should not be a problem as you can do a steel frame that would support it - effectively a T-junction RSJs and then the RSJ itself sitting on other steels etc.   Removing the pillar would be ideal as it will have a massive sense of space.  However the engineer in me says that it would be a tough (read expensive) act.  Was speaking to a builder and and he had an allergic reaction to it too. His suggestion was to keep it simple and retain the pillar and build a feature around it e.g. kitchen island or something. 

Any builders, structural engg on the forum think this has legs?


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## Chisteve (Jan 13, 2015)

All can be done in steel - just how much like all these things 

Difficult to understand from what you have written 

I deal in steel have supplied all sorts to private customers over the years 

Your engineer may not be specialist in steel I have seen a lot of calculations like that 

You need to talk to a small fabricator - he may have an engineer if your lucky - only difficulty now is that everybody is busy and you may have difficulty if finding the right one to look at a small contract like this 

Hope this is of help


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2015)

Removing the pillar would mean replacing it with a suitably supported lintel that is capable of supporting the load.   An Architect should be able to calculate the potential loading, then the dimensions and suitable material for the lintel and it's supports.   I tend to remember you use a calculation based on 'Young's Modulus of Elasticity' in calculating the potential deflection    Anyhow, sounds possible but the cost is another factor.


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Removing the pillar would mean replacing it with a suitably supported lintel that is capable of supporting the load.   An Architect should be able to calculate the potential loading, then the dimensions and suitable material for the lintel and it's supports.   I tend to remember you use a calculation based on 'Young's Modulus of Elasticity' in calculating the potential deflection    Anyhow, sounds possible but the cost is another factor.
		
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I think you've mixed up the roles! The Architect does the conceptual drawings, but doesn't have any real responsibility for determining whether it's possible or not - apart from an 'experienced guess'! It's the Structural Engineer that does the definitive calculations that prove whether the concept is do-able - and at what cost!

And I don't think Young's Modulus comes into it - it's more about load bearing rather than elasticity!


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## vkurup (Jan 14, 2015)

Chisteve said:



			All can be done in steel - just how much like all these things 

Difficult to understand from what you have written 
I deal in steel have supplied all sorts to private customers over the years 

Your engineer may not be specialist in steel I have seen a lot of calculations like that 

You need to talk to a small fabricator - he may have an engineer if your lucky - only difficulty now is that everybody is busy and you may have difficulty if finding the right one to look at a small contract like this 

Hope this is of help
		
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Here is my lame and unscientific attempt at sketching this.. should hopefully give a better idea.. 



Never thought of using a fabricator for something like this.. my guess it will be easier and cheaper to convince HID rather than try and do this via steel. Though I like the engineering challenge on this one... 

being trying to seduce HID with pics like this - were people have used the pillar as a feature.. 






SocketRocket said:



			Removing the pillar would mean replacing it with a suitably supported lintel that is capable of supporting the load.   An Architect should be able to calculate the potential loading, then the dimensions and suitable material for the lintel and it's supports.   I tend to remember you use a calculation based on 'Young's Modulus of Elasticity' in calculating the potential deflection    Anyhow, sounds possible but the cost is another factor.
		
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Foxholer is right... the architect is the visualiser but a structural guy would need to come up with the load bearing values. 
ps: Good effort for lobbing in Elasticity in the discussion... i was thinking more thermodynamics... )


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## Rooter (Jan 14, 2015)

You should join a builders forum dude, they might do a free extension fitting too!


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## vkurup (Jan 14, 2015)

Rooter said:



			You should join a builders forum dude, they might do a free extension fitting too!
		
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ROFL...  I like the way you think...


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## Chisteve (Jan 14, 2015)

vkurup said:



			Here is my lame and unscientific attempt at sketching this.. should hopefully give a better idea.. 
View attachment 13576


Never thought of using a fabricator for something like this.. my guess it will be easier and cheaper to convince HID rather than try and do this via steel. Though I like the engineering challenge on this one... 

being trying to seduce HID with pics like this - were people have used the pillar as a feature.. 

View attachment 13577




Foxholer is right... the architect is the visualiser but a structural guy would need to come up with the load bearing values. 
ps: Good effort for lobbing in Elasticity in the discussion... i was thinking more thermodynamics... )
		
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I'm assuming the extension will be a flat roof and existing has a room above with cavity walls ?

If so and you want to remove the post in middle then you will need to have twin beams or one beam with a wider plate on top under the walls above, one will have to span  across room 

If you can live with a post, then remove walls and have beams under walls with a steel post in the corner.

With regards to the extension this can be built as you have drawn using brick walls etc I would think depending on how far the joists will span or you can introduce steel supports 

When i note fabricator I mean steel fabricator ie steelwork fabrication - Steelwork Company for advice and supply of the fabricated beams - to get through building control you will need structural calculations 

There are lots of ways to do this dependent on what you want and the constraints on site  

Hope this helps 

Steve


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I think you've mixed up the roles! The Architect does the conceptual drawings, but doesn't have any real responsibility for determining whether it's possible or not - apart from an 'experienced guess'! It's the Structural Engineer that does the definitive calculations that prove whether the concept is do-able - and at what cost!

And I don't think Young's Modulus comes into it - it's more about load bearing rather than elasticity!
		
Click to expand...

The Architect takes care of all that when he designs it, you don't need to get a SE yourself.

Regarding Youngs Modulus, is that why it's full title is 'Young's Modulus of Elasticity'    It's used to calculate the elasticity of load bearing sections so you can determine their Yield Strength.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 14, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The Architect takes care of all that when he designs it, you don't need to get a SE yourself.

Regarding Youngs Modulus, is that why it's full title is 'Young's Modulus of Elasticity'    It's used to calculate the elasticity of load bearing sections so you can determine their Yield Strength.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html

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Architects are not Structural Engineers, father in law is a retired SE and he was always going on about blooming architects and their fancy ideas without having a clue how its going to work.

His son is an architect, they have interesting conversations


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2015)

That's one ginormous Kitchen extension!

I suspect that if it happens, that'll be the area(s) where 85%+ of your waking time at home will be! Make sure you get the actual 'working' kitchen logistics right!


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## vkurup (Jan 14, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The Architect takes care of all that when he designs it, you don't need to get a SE yourself.

Regarding Youngs Modulus, is that why it's full title is 'Young's Modulus of Elasticity'    It's used to calculate the elasticity of load bearing sections so you can determine their Yield Strength.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html

Click to expand...

SR... agree.. elasticty would play a role... havent come across Youngs modulus since first year of my engineering school - brings back memories esp about the lovely Physics teacher ..... (and all the drinking evening spent in her thoughts)



Foxholer said:



			That's one *ginormous *Kitchen extension!

I suspect that if it happens, that'll be the area(s) where 85%+ of your waking time at home will be! Make sure you get the actual 'working' kitchen logistics right!
		
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Agree.. it will be the family hub, so will have an entertainment corner, kitchen, informal bench/table for dinning.  Our neighbour did a similar extension - smaller as it only went to the side rather than wrap around... but they spend all their time there.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Architects are not Structural Engineers, father in law is a retired SE and he was always going on about blooming architects and their fancy ideas without having a clue how its going to work.

His son is an architect, they have interesting conversations 

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Phil, please read my previous post


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 14, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Phil, please read my previous post
		
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I did and thought I would give you the benefit of my first hand experience


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I did and thought I would give you the benefit of my first hand experience 

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OK Phil.   As I said you normally hire an Architect to draw up the plans and they sort out the Structural Engineering issues.  Thats what I did!


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			OK Phil.   As I said you normally hire an Architect to draw up the plans and they sort out the Structural Engineering issues.  Thats what I did! 

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:thup:

That's the way it works! In standard/simple jobs, no separate SE is required, but the sort of thing envisaged will possibly/likely need a separate specialist.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Jan 15, 2015)

The overall cost is likely to be significantly less if you can retain parts of the existing structure, depending on your precise situation this will provide part of the temporary support required, provide bearings for the structural steels and will most likely simplify the SE's work.

Speaking as a QS I suspect retaining a pier and utilising it in your design will provide best value.

Hope it goes well.


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## Andy808 (Jan 15, 2015)

There is always a way to do what you want in the long run but the bigger implications are how much it will cost and whether you would prefer a small supporting post or some serious steel sticking down into the room from the ceiling. 
If the post is put in sympathetically then it can almost disappear into the room.


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## vkurup (Jan 16, 2015)

Andy808 said:



			There is always a way to do what you want in the long run but the bigger implications are how much it will cost and whether you would prefer a small supporting post or some serious steel sticking down into the room from the ceiling. 
If the post is put in sympathetically then it can almost disappear into the room.
		
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I have a feeling that we will end up with the post.  Not sure how much sympathetic we can make it look as it will be smack bang in the middle.  

Got the Anglian Windows guys coming around in a few days.  Apparently they now do home extensions, so will be interesting to hear what they say..


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