# Anyone Learned Aimpoint? Your Thoughts?



## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

Im really interested in taking the aimpoint course. Anyone who has taken the course, would you recommend it? Im not great with really technical things, and was wondering if there are any resources online so i can research it before attending? I've seen a few basic videos on youtube.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 7, 2014)

Homer has done it and uses it on the course so I'm sure he'll be along soon to tell you all about it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2014)

I love it, especialy on greens I don't know. Contrary to popular misconception it really takes no longer than it would to look at your putt using a more conventional method. I'm doing the new express read course in June so I won't need the chart. The great thing is, you pay your money once for the basic course and can then go back and go on it again if you need a refresher. 

Many will say my putting is still as bad as ever and that may be true bit I can stand over the ball now and feel absolute confidence I have a good read, again especially on other courses. That allows me to just trust the read and make a solid stroke. I like it and I would always suggest doing the course


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## pendodave (Feb 7, 2014)

I've seen a couple of bits on one of the Crossfield course vids where one of the protagonists hops about a bit on both feet and then looks at a book.

But I've never read anywhere how the system actually works. Can someone who has done the course explain the method in words of one syllable or would you have to kill me afterwards ???


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2014)

In simple terms, you need to work out the pace as this obviously affects the amount of break. You then find the mid point of the putt on the lowest side You need to turn until you face up the slope and the angle you are to your ball gives you the angle. You then need to work out the degree of slope (1 being a virtually flat putt, 4 being a severe slope). Simply look up the result in the chart and that's it. 

It doesn't read as easily as it is in use. We had an odyssey demo day at my club in the summer. I talked their rep through the process and he plopped in a 15 foot downhill left to right first time. My read was way bigger than the one he had which is perhaps the thing I found hardest. It will give you some big breaks and you look at it and think "no way" but you'll be surprised


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## pendodave (Feb 7, 2014)

Thanks for that Homer, food for thought.


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## Stuey01 (Feb 7, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Contrary to popular misconception it really takes no longer than it would to look at your putt using a more conventional method
		
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I must be one of the popularly misconceived then, because I can't see how all that penguin hopping about and looking at a little book can possibly not take longer.
Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, taking a little longer to read a putt is far from the worst thing you could do on a golf course, but do you really believe it doesn't take longer?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			I must be one of the popularly misconceived then, because I can't see how all that penguin hopping about and looking at a little book can possibly not take longer.
Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, taking a little longer to read a putt is far from the worst thing you could do on a golf course, but do you really believe it doesn't take longer?
		
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I suggest you speak to Hawkeye as he plays with me regularly but unless it is a real tricky putt with a big slope then I have got the slope and looking uphill (or hopping about) down to a 10-15 second exercise. Couple of secs to check the break in the chart and maybe a second look as others are putting and I'm done. If there is a big slope I still reckon that I take no longer than others would taking care to get their own read right

Used it at H4H and all the forum meets I've been on and no-one I played with had any issues with my speed of play on the greens. Like I say, there seems to be a fair bit of misconception about this process


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## Stuey01 (Feb 7, 2014)

Fair enough Homer.  That's a bit slower than myself (but I'm a crap putter!) and my playing partners (who are good putters) but only so slightly as it would not make any real difference.  Certainly not enough to prompt any complaints that's for sure.
Seems you have down to a pretty quick process.


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## Robobum (Feb 7, 2014)

@Homer. What were your putt stats before and after starting using this please?


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I love it, especialy on greens I don't know. Contrary to popular misconception it really takes no longer than it would to look at your putt using a more conventional method. I'm doing the new express read course in June so I won't need the chart. The great thing is, you pay your money once for the basic course and can then go back and go on it again if you need a refresher. 

Many will say my putting is still as bad as ever and that may be true bit I can stand over the ball now and feel absolute confidence I have a good read, again especially on other courses. That allows me to just trust the read and make a solid stroke. I like it and I would always suggest doing the course
		
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Do you use a digital spirit level? You can get free spirit level apps i was wondering if these could be used.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 7, 2014)

standrew said:



			Do you use a digital spirit level? You can get free spirit level apps i was wondering if these could be used.
		
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Pretty sure you can't use those, against the rules of the game n'all that!


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Pretty sure you can't use those, against the rules of the game n'all that!
		
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On the practice greens obviously son.

I heard digital spirit levels were used by some aimpoint learners to check for the zero line.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 7, 2014)

standrew said:



			On the practice greens obviously son.
		
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Dad??


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## pendodave (Feb 7, 2014)

I think you get a 'proper' digital level if you go on the course? 

They are certainly available on all brands of smartphone for free. Trouble is, the size of the phones makes me think that the minor abnormalities on the green beneath the phone might override the overall slope in a particular area. Would need to use one of those Dom Jolly supersized ones to eliminate the statistical uncertainty...


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			I must be one of the popularly misconceived then, because I can't see how all that penguin hopping about and looking at a little book can possibly not take longer.
Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, taking a little longer to read a putt is far from the worst thing you could do on a golf course, but do you really believe it doesn't take longer?
		
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I've seen it used by a couple of folk and it turned their poor putting into noticeably better putters. 
Certain aspects - what you refer to as 'penquins hopping about' can be useful to non-Aimpoint users too - to actually determine a slop - occasionally.

If it helps sink putts, get longer putts to tap-in distance or avoid 3-putts, it's actually a time saver!


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Dad??
		
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Son?!?!?!?!?!


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

pendodave said:



			I think you get a 'proper' digital level if you go on the course? 

They are certainly available on all brands of smartphone for free. Trouble is, the size of the phones makes me think that the minor abnormalities on the green beneath the phone might override the overall slope in a particular area. Would need to use one of those Dom Jolly supersized ones to eliminate the statistical uncertainty...
		
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Perhaps a tablet haha.


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## Stuey01 (Feb 7, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			If it helps sink putts, get longer putts to tap-in distance or avoid 3-putts, it's actually a time saver!
		
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Fair point.


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## pendodave (Feb 7, 2014)

standrew said:



			Perhaps a tablet haha.
		
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In all seriousness, a full size tablet is probably the optimum size for this sort of malarky. 

I wonder if closing your eyes would help to feel the slope ? If you take one of your senses out of the equation, the others are supposed to kick in to compensate.

On the other hand, it would probably just cause the hearing to sharpen up enough to hear people whispering from the clubhouse 'why is that d**k hopping about on the practice green like a penguin....'


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 7, 2014)

I wouldn't say that Homer takes any longer now he is used to it than anyone else. In the first instance I think it did take a little longer but I guess that is to be expected.

My own opinion, having seen it used but never used it, is it all looks like a bit too scientific and calculated for my liking and is still open to a little bit of human error and guess work but even if the result is your second putt is a tap in that has to be a good thing. My own method of reading greens isn't too dissimilar in theory to the aimpoint approach, but with more feel and no books. I understand the theory and have no doubt it works, but I know that I personally couldn't be bothered with the charts.

The biggest thing I think it has done for Homer is to teach him that putts break more than he had previously allowed himself to think. In the beginning I heard him question the information given to him on more than one occasion but he now seems to trust it and go with it. I don't know whether he holes more putts but I am sure he gets it rolling on a better line than he did before.


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I wouldn't say that Homer takes any longer now he is used to it than anyone else. In the first instance I think it did take a little longer but I guess that is to be expected.

My own opinion, having seen it used but never used it, is it all looks like a bit too scientific and calculated for my liking and is still open to a little bit of human error and guess work but even if the result is your second putt is a tap in that has to be a good thing. My own method of reading greens isn't too dissimilar in theory to the aimpoint approach, but with more feel and no books. I understand the theory and have no doubt it works, but I know that I personally couldn't be bothered with the charts.

The biggest thing I think it has done for Homer is to teach him that putts break more than he had previously allowed himself to think. In the beginning I heard him question the information given to him on more than one occasion but he now seems to trust it and go with it. I don't know whether he holes more putts but I am sure he gets it rolling on a better line than he did before.
		
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Well the subconscious mind works 10000 times faster than the conscious apparantly. I dont know if its just me but i feel my brain gets the read roughly after a second or two of looking down the line. 

I was wondering before if there was any training product which would have for example photos of putt lies and photos round the hole, and you had to visually identify the break. I think this would be quite a useful tool.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

There are also 2 requirements that are likely to put folk off adopting it (apart from the price and ego) imo.

You have to know the speed of the greens - or at least get your estimate reasonable close - so the Practice green and first couple of Course greens are a bit of a learning exercise. And the Greens have to be consistent - which isn't always the case!

That shouldn't, though can, put people off trying it.

Their (completely different system) predictions that are used by PGA coverage are great to watch. Those greens have been mapped and modeled to get the line, but the calculation of break is the same.


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## Qwerty (Feb 7, 2014)

I can't see how this would work unless the Slope/break was a constant amount of degrees. In most Putts its got to be variable throughout and surely you can only judge that via the eye.

Also if Theres break involved you need to hit the putt at the right pace to take the break accordingly.
I really don't have a problem with someone using this if they feel its helping, but I just don't get it.  

Putting is a skill surely? And even if this method did work is it not taking some of the pleasure away from reading hitting and holing a putt?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			In simple terms, you need to work out the pace as this obviously affects the amount of break. You then find the mid point of the putt on the lowest side You need to turn until you face up the slope and the angle you are to your ball gives you the angle. You then need to work out the degree of slope (1 being a virtually flat putt, 4 being a severe slope). Simply look up the result in the chart and that's it.
		
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Eh?  Looking up a chart - what's that about?


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## john0 (Feb 7, 2014)

Surely someone must have a video of this penguin dance that we can see?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

just have a good look at the break and visualise the putt.  Pick your spot on the putt trajectory to aim at and hit a straight putt at that spot.  Bobby Locke - all putts are straight...


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2014)

http://aimpointgolf.com/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



http://aimpointgolf.com/

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Looking at the video - I do this I think.  Sort out trajectory and and define aimpoint then define point on trajectory in fov (or straightline to aimpoint - pretty much coincident) and hit ball at it.


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## Stuey01 (Feb 7, 2014)

Done some YouTube "research" (using the term loosely!). I have a serious question for you aimpointers.
Having established the position of the straight line to the hole, how do you go about accurately assessing the angle between that and the position of your ball? 
Is it an estimate? How critical is it that this is accurate?

Thanks


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			Done some YouTube "research" (using the term loosely!). I have a serious question for you aimpointers.
Having established the position of the straight line to the hole, how do you go about accurately assessing the angle between that and the position of your ball? 
Is it an estimate? How critical is it that this is accurate?

Thanks
		
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There is a chart they use to determine this. I think it would be pretty make or break.


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## Stuey01 (Feb 7, 2014)

standrew said:



			There is a chart they use to determine this. I think it would be pretty make or break.
		
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I thought the angle was what you use with the chart to determine break, not what the chart helps you to determine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

But how can you use a chart when playing a comp - your chart isn't a caddy - it's an external aid?


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But how can you use a chart when playing a comp - your chart isn't a caddy - it's an external aid?
		
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I guess eventually you wouldnt need it but idk.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 7, 2014)

Having never done this, but seen about it, the chart is just a piece of paper with numbers on it. You can write anything you like on a piece of paper, such as yardages etc etc, and as long as you use it in the "traditional sense", ie, you read it, that is fine.

Happy to be corrected if i'm wrong, but that is how I understood it...


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2014)

From Mark Sweeney -Aimpoint Founder
The R&A has issued a decision on AimCharts (Decision Reference Number ES2012-0479) which states that using them during a stipulated round does NOT violate Rule 14-3 (Artificial Devices and Unusual Equipment) provided that: 1.    It is not used as a physical reference for gauging angle. This means that in R&A governed rounds you cannot use the AimChart at the MidPoint to pick the angle, you will have to visually pick the angle based on how it intersects your body, then move away from the MidPoint before looking up the break on the AimChart. 2.    Golfers play without undue delay (Rule 6-7)3.    Players do not stand on or touch the line of the putt (Rule 16-1a) Points 2 and 3 are existing rules governing standard play which you probably know already.  The USGA has not commented on this decision, but to be safe we recommend that anyone playing USGA-governed rounds follow the same process.  This modified process is just as efficient, just be sure to practice what angles visually look like when standing at the MidPoint. Two AimPoint players who already modified their process won this weekâ€”Stacy Lewis on the LPGA and Stacey Keating on the Ladies European Tour.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But how can you use a chart when playing a comp - your chart isn't a caddy - it's an external aid?
		
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Lol I had a post here trying to dissect all the possible arguments how it is against the rules but Homer has it covered more solidly before I hit post.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

Anyone using the Pythagoras method for determining who is first to putt.

Two balls and hole make three points - three points define a triangle.  

Draw imaginary line between the two balls (the base line) and walk along it looking at the hole - with another imaginary line drawn between yourself and the hole.  

Move along the base line until the angles between the two imaginary lines is a right angle - as best as you can judge obviously.  When it is look at each ball in turn.  Whichever looks furthest from you is first away.  

Obviously for short putts simply pacing it out is quickest and easy - but this is a good way for longer putts that saves someone doing two lots of pacing out.


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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

I've been using Aimpoint since early 2012, and been using the Express read recently through the knowledge I've gained by using the chart. Reading these posts you will always get sceptics about something new and Aimpoint is revolutionary.  You go to the range, hit balls, pace, laser, gps the distance so you have a better knowledge of how far you hit each club, you go on Trackman and number crunch your AoA, smash whacker, launch of orbit, terminal velocity of the little white missile, and boast how far you can smash your driver, that can be tweeked down to 7.75* with XX-stiff macho shaft................ Why be so cynical when a guy who took time and effort to produce something that gives you no matter what the speed of green is the amount of break required after you have taken certain parameters into account.  

I've had players stand and watch what I'm doing on the putting green and they always say the same thing, too bloody complicated, it is if you don't apply the brain, but when I show and then drain the putt without studying the putt the normal way, it shuts them up.


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## chrisd (Feb 7, 2014)

But it's not rocket science is it?





3565 said:



			I've been using Aimpoint since early 2012, and been using the Express read recently through the knowledge I've gained by using the chart. Reading these posts you will always get sceptics about something new and Aimpoint is revolutionary.  You go to the range, hit balls, pace, laser, gps the distance so you have a better knowledge of how far you hit each club, you go on Trackman and number crunch your AoA, smash whacker, launch of orbit, terminal velocity of the little white missile, and boast how far you can smash your driver, that can be tweeked down to 7.75* with XX-stiff macho shaft................
		
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Well maybe it is!


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyone using the Pythagoras method.
		
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Something about about Squaws and Hippopotamus Hides?



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Two balls and hole make
		
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Careful! 



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Draw imaginary line between the two balls (the base line) and walk along it looking at the hole - with another imaginary line drawn between yourself and the hole.  

Move along the base line until the angles between the two imaginary lines is a right angle - as best as you can judge obviously.  When it is look at each ball in turn.  Whichever looks furthest from you is first away.
		
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I use a slightly different Geometric method - equally convoluted to explain - occasionally.


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

3565 said:



			I've been using Aimpoint since early 2012, and been using the Express read recently through the knowledge I've gained by using the chart. Reading these posts you will always get sceptics about something new and Aimpoint is revolutionary.  You go to the range, hit balls, pace, laser, gps the distance so you have a better knowledge of how far you hit each club, you go on Trackman and number crunch your AoA, smash whacker, launch of orbit, terminal velocity of the little white missile, and boast how far you can smash your driver, that can be tweeked down to 7.75* with XX-stiff macho shaft................ Why be so cynical when a guy who took time and effort to produce something that gives you no matter what the speed of green is the amount of break required after you have taken certain parameters into account.  

I've had players stand and watch what I'm doing on the putting green and they always say the same thing, too bloody complicated, it is if you don't apply the brain, but when I show and then drain the putt without studying the putt the normal way, it shuts them up.
		
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Great post.  

I did the Aimpoint Express course last week (Â£40) and it was fascinating.  I've taken a huge amount from it and my last two rounds have been superb on the greens.  I rarely (if ever) sink any putts from 6 feet and over but have played 3 rounds since and have slotted a lot more.  3 putts have suddenly deserted me!

The main thing I took away was that I was always looking for a break that wasn't there.  I'm now confident enough to hit a putt, even from 20 feet away, straight.

I don't think I'd bother with the Midpoint course as I don't fancy carrying around charts with me etc and I reckon that Express 2 course will be getting hit next.  It deals with multiple break putts.

Â£40 well spent.

Oh- I was dubious too.


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Great post.  

I did the Aimpoint Express course last week (Â£40) and it was fascinating.  I've taken a huge amount from it and my last two rounds have been superb on the greens.  I rarely (if ever) sink any putts from 6 feet and over but have played 3 rounds since and have slotted a lot more.  3 putts have suddenly deserted me!

The main thing I took away was that I was always looking for a break that wasn't there.  I'm now confident enough to hit a putt, even from 20 feet away, straight.

I don't think I'd bother with the Midpoint course as I don't fancy carrying around charts with me etc and I reckon that Express 2 course will be getting hit next.  It deals with multiple break putts.

Â£40 well spent.

Oh- I was dubious too.
		
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Bargain. Im there.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			just have a good look at the break and visualise the putt.  Pick your spot on the putt trajectory to aim at and hit a straight putt at that spot.  Bobby Locke - all putts are straight...

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This is the right answer  :thup:

Too many variables using the aimpoint method.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			This is the right answer  :thup:

Too many variables using the aimpoint method.
		
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Have you actually tried it? Can't see how you can dismiss it without learning how to do it properly and giving it a go


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Have you actually tried it? Can't see how you can dismiss it without learning how to do it properly and giving it a go
		
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No and I have no interest in trying it to be honest. I don't have a problem reading greens, when I get a putt wrong it's because I've misjudged the speed. 

My question is....if this method is so good, how come nobody has thought about it in the 500 years that golf has been around? Just a fad I think, spend time on the practice green if you are struggling.

And these charts, who plots them out? And what about the natural movement in greens over time, particularly on new courses?


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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			No and I have no interest in trying it to be honest. I don't have a problem reading greens, when I get a putt wrong it's because I've misjudged the speed. 

My question is....if this method is so good, how come nobody has thought about it in the 500 years that golf has been around? Just a fad I think, spend time on the practice green if you are struggling.

And these charts, who plots them out? And what about the natural movement in greens over time, particularly on new courses?
		
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Theres a daft post if ever I saw one, pity Trackman wasn't invented back then as well, or metal woods, or gps laser finders....... 

I always say if you've not tried it you can't comment as you don't know the facts


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## standrew (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			My question is....if this method is so good, how come nobody has thought about it in the 500 years that golf has been around? Just a fad I think, spend time on the practice green if you are struggling.
		
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How come if traditional putt reading methods are so great, why has there only a tiny handful of truly top quality putters in modern history out of the hundreds of top pros?


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)




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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:








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Agree, and That depends on what the change is?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2014)

standrew said:



			How come if traditional putt reading methods are so great, why has there only a tiny handful of truly top quality putters in modern history out of the hundreds of top pros?
		
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Stacey Lewis. One of the best female golfers on the planet right now and plenty of others have used it or tried it. Getting more popular with express read.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

3565 said:





drive4show said:



			.....
And these charts, who plots them out? And what about the natural movement in greens over time, particularly on new courses?
		
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Theres a daft post if ever I saw one, pity Trackman wasn't invented back then as well, or metal woods, or gps laser finders....... 

I always say if you've not tried it you can't comment as you don't know the facts
		
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Wow! Agreeing with 3565 and disagreeing with D4S at the same time! Rare enough for either, let alone both! 

One of the 'Facts' is that the charts are not for specific greens. They are the end result of the calculation taking speed of green, length of putt and 'average' slope into consideration (roughly speaking). So essentially universal.

@Standrew. 1. There will always be a Top n% of anything. The 'quality' that defines that level just changes! And those that are trying to improve are either trying to get into that 'top n%' or maintain their position. No different from Road to Dubai Ranking/World scale for example. Top n% Driving Distance might be a better analogy.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

3565 said:



			Theres a daft post if ever I saw one, pity Trackman wasn't invented back then as well, or metal woods, or gps laser finders....... 

I always say if you've not tried it you can't comment as you don't know the facts
		
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Completely different, they involve technology that has been devised over time. There isn't any technology involved in a ball rolling across some grass.



standrew said:



			How come if traditional putt reading methods are so great, why has there only a tiny handful of truly top quality putters in modern history out of the hundreds of top pros?
		
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And there are suddenly loads more top quality putters now? Show me the stats to prove it.



HomerJSimpson said:



			Stacey Lewis. One of the best female golfers on the planet right now and plenty of others have used it or tried it. Getting more popular with express read.
		
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Again, show me the stats to prove they are holing more putts now.


So you guys that use this method, you turn up at a course you've never played before and get to the first green.....then what? You start mapping it all out and hold up play or you look at the putt as before and use your judgement to work out the line and pace?


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			So you guys that use this method, you turn up at a course you've never played before and get to the first green.....then what? You start mapping it all out and hold up play or you look at the putt as before and use your judgement to work out the line and pace?
		
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It's NOT MAPPING!

Btw. Given that Greens, as we know then today, really only became official in very early 1950s, Green Reading skills haven't been so impoirtant for most of the 500 years of golf. We've been luck the hole has been the right size.....no, better not!:rofl:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It's NOT MAPPING!
		
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Insert word of your choice in place of mapping, the concept is still the same. You look at the contours, estimate the pace, select your line and hit the putt. Nothing has changed, it's just been wrapped up and resold as a 'new' product so that someone can make a few bucks. 

What about other variables such as things like bermuda grass where the grain changes during the course of the day?


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

The stack and tilt of putting.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			The stack and tilt of putting.
		
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This could possibly be the truest comment ever posted on here


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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Completely different, they involve technology that has been devised over time. There isn't any technology involved in a ball rolling across some grass.



And there are suddenly loads more top quality putters now? Show me the stats to prove it.



Again, show me the stats to prove they are holing more putts now.


So you guys that use this method, you turn up at a course you've never played before and get to the first green.....then what? You start mapping it all out and hold up play or you look at the putt as before and use your judgement to work out the line and pace?
		
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When Nicklaus turned Pro he was the first to chart out yardages on courses as to give him an advantage over FCs, he knew how far he hit the ball, now it's not normal to NOT have a yardage book, gps, laser finder! Technology in this game is massive as we all know, from the first metal wood to the nano space tech shafts. Aimpoint was devised to assist in helping to hole more putts within 20ft range as statistically above that distance you hole less the further away you are, stands to reason? The pros have green mapped charts that indicate severity of slope in percent and direction to help them which has been gained from their caddies and them thru years of playing at the same courses year after year. Aimpoint is no different apart from that it helps you how far right left you need to aim your putt to pending on the The thing with Aimpoint is that if hypothetically we played a course with a stimp of 9, then played the next day and the stimp increased to say 11 or 12, I would think you'd have a hard time to adjust to the increase of speed which means allowing for more break and trusting that what you think is the amount of break is correct, and have the confidence that's your line and trust it , (not knocking your ability as a golfer here). I have been on greens and said no way that will break that much, but I've holed it. It's freakish, honestly. The express read is even quicker although not as accurate as aimpoint, but from 40 ft where your expectations in holing is next to nil, it's a great tool to try and eliminate 3 putts.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

3565 said:



			When Nicklaus turned Pro he was the first to chart out yardages on courses as to give him an advantage over FCs, he knew how far he hit the ball, now it's not normal to NOT have a yardage book, gps, laser finder! Technology in this game is massive as we all know, from the first metal wood to the nano space tech shafts. Aimpoint was devised to assist in helping to hole more putts within 20ft range as statistically above that distance you hole less the further away you are, stands to reason? The pros have green mapped charts that indicate severity of slope in percent and direction to help them which has been gained from their caddies and them thru years of playing at the same courses year after year. Aimpoint is no different apart from that it helps you how far right left you need to aim your putt to pending on the The thing with Aimpoint is that if hypothetically we played a course with a stimp of 9, then played the next day and the stimp increased to say 11 or 12, I would think you'd have a hard time to adjust to the increase of speed which means allowing for more break and trusting that what you think is the amount of break is correct, and have the confidence that's your line and trust it , (not knocking your ability as a golfer here). I have been on greens and said no way that will break that much, but I've holed it. It's freakish, honestly. The express read is even quicker although not as accurate as aimpoint, but from 40 ft where your expectations in holing is next to nil, it's a great tool to try and eliminate 3 putts.
		
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I don't doubt what you are saying but there really isn't anything new in this concept. The bottom line is you have to be able to judge line and pace, whichever method you choose to use. Using charts, maps, whatever you want to call them won't necessarily make you a better putter but spending time on the practice green learning to read putts and control distance WILL make you a better putter  :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

For me this whole Aimpoint stuff doesn't fit with one of the basics that underpin the ethos of the game - the individual using his skill and judgement.

But you all know I would say that.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Insert word of your choice in place of mapping, the concept is still the same.
		
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I was simply pointing out that your argument about 1st Green delays was flawed. Yes, there may be an issue getting correct speed, which I have previously pointed out, but no different to the same issue for 'traditional' methods.



drive4show said:



			I
What about other variables such as things like bermuda grass where the grain changes during the course of the day?
		
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That's why I used 'roughly' and 'essentially' in my post! Things like Bermuda, dampness and wind are in there as things to consider, but I haven't gone into the depths of how and how much - as I'm not an Aimpoint exponent. When was the last time you played on Bermuda? I have never had that 'pleasure'! Dampness of Bent Grass definitely has an effect on speed on down-hillers though.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I was simply pointing out that your argument about 1st Green delays was flawed. Yes, there may be an issue getting correct speed, which I have previously pointed out, but no different to the same issue for 'traditional' methods.



That's why I used 'roughly' and 'essentially' in my post! Things like Bermuda, dampness and wind are in there as things to consider, but I haven't gone into the depths of how and how much - as I'm not an Aimpoint exponent. *When was the last time you played on Bermuda?* I have never had that 'pleasure'! Dampness of Bent Grass definitely has an effect on speed on down-hillers though.
		
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Fortunately only when playing on holiday, I hate the stuff!  Just can't read bermuda greens


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For me this whole Aimpoint stuff doesn't fit with one of the basics that underpin the ethos of the game - the individual using his skill and judgement.

But you all know I would say that.
		
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Good point.

If I make a good putt I want to know that I made it through my own judgement and skill.


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## BTatHome (Feb 7, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Good point.

If I make a good putt I want to know that I made it through my own judgement and skill.
		
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Surely aimpoint users still have judgement and skill. They still have to aim the putt and still have to hit it at the correct pace.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Fortunately only when playing on holiday, I hate the stuff!  Just can't read bermuda greens  

Click to expand...

Check this out then! http://aimpointgolf.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/if-it-makes-so-much-sense-why-wont-they/

Attitude seem familiar? I think the Author is actually independent too.

Note: Aimpoint developed in Florida on Bermuda greens. Oh, and just as relevant to 'normal' ones - you can't beat gravity!


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			the ethos of the game - the individual using his skill and judgement.

.
		
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Why did you buy a new putter?


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## Stuey01 (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Fortunately only when playing on holiday, I hate the stuff!  Just can't read bermuda greens  

Click to expand...

I've heard about a course that can help with that... :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Surely aimpoint users still have judgement and skill. They still have to aim the putt and still have to hit it at the correct pace.
		
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So why do you need to do the Penguin hop and read up a table?


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So why do you need to do the Penguin hop and read up a table?
		
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Aimpoint Express requires neither.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

Stuey01 said:



			I've heard about a course that can help with that... :thup:
		
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I've got a better cure......bent fescue greens


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## tsped83 (Feb 7, 2014)

Each to their own, but using a map/chart/book to read the green? Come on, seriously? Use your eyes, judgement and skill. Man and putter in sync, referring to a chart to roll a ball along the floor? Come off it. Pull the other one.


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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I don't doubt what you are saying but there really isn't anything new in this concept. The bottom line is you have to be able to judge line and pace, whichever method you choose to use. Using charts, maps, whatever you want to call them won't necessarily make you a better putter but spending time on the practice green learning to read putts and control distance WILL make you a better putter  :thup:
		
Click to expand...

yeah I agree with you from the bottom line and onwards part of your post, and yes to get better you need to practise. Whether it's Bobby 1930's Locke way or the scientific number crunching way, you still got to hit the putt and the fact that a stone or poorly repaired pitch mark deflects the ball, no amount of aiming, mathematical sequencing will stop that. But you know how far you crunch a 7i or half a 52* wedge? Aimpoint is the yardage chart for greens and I have a greater understanding of green reading thru Aimpoint! We are all quick to go and try out the latest driver to gain the grail, but that doesn't put the ball in the hole, nor will the latest Â£300 Cameron, an understanding distance, speed, slope and angle and a sound putting technique will. 

If it's not your bag then it's not, I ain't going to put a gun to your head and say do it, but if you don't know the principle and facts about it your not in a position to really give an objective view as it's based on your 1930's Locke principles. 

Note, don't think that i rely on the system all the time, I have a hard time on flat greens using Aimpoint, and revert back to the normal way


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			Man and putter in sync
		
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Which putter is this now?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Aimpoint Express requires neither.
		
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So is it as good as skill and feel?


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## tsped83 (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Which putter is this now? 

Click to expand...

Touche. But the same putter has been in the bag for 3 months (ish) now and putting has improved. By using the same putter, yes, but also from practicing on the putting green a few times a week. Leave your charts at home and use your eyes and your head. Putting is an instinctive process. Maps not required.


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## mefromhere (Feb 7, 2014)

A few weeks ago (I think) there was a thread on how people read a putt and then play the shot you need to. Everybody explained what they do.
I would say that most people look at a slope, see how steep it is and the steeper it is the more up the slope you aim. I don't see how a table helps decide that as it still requires you to use your eyes to determine the steepness of said slope.

Also, what is there to stop somebody who has been on the course sharing exactly what the "secret" is?


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So is it as good as skill and feel?
		
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Absolutely.

Feel is with the feet.  This feeling is easy to measure as the individual puts a number on how much slope they feel.  Eyes cannot read greens well.  Eyes lie.  

Skill is about pace and starting the ball on the line you want to.  

Honestly, I'd love to crouch down and say, "Yep, definitely breaking right to left 2 feet, let's sink this bad boy" but I can't.  I honestly can't believe how good the Express read is, how simple it is.  I could teach it to you in 20 minutes.  

Get yourself off to a course. 

#believetoachieve


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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			Each to their own, but using a map/chart/book to read the green? Come on, seriously? Use your eyes, judgement and skill. Man and putter in sync, referring to a chart to roll a ball along the floor? Come off it. Pull the other one.
		
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Hey that's fine, like you say each to there own, I'm presuming here, but next time you play, use your eyes and judgement and skill, man, clubs and ball in sync and leave your stroke saver, gps or laser finder at home then!!!!!!


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			Maps not required.
		
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I don't have a map.


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

mefromhere said:



			I don't see how a table helps decide that as it still requires you to use your eyes to determine the steepness of said slope.
		
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Go on a course.



mefromhere said:



			Also, what is there to stop somebody who has been on the course sharing exactly what the "secret" is?
		
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Pay me Â£39 and I'll tell you.


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

Anyhoo, I'll bow out as I sound somewhat defensive!  I'm just really loving this method of reading greens and have had instant success with it.

Each to their own!


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2014)

tsped83 said:



			Man and putter in sink!
		
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FTFY!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 7, 2014)

I would love to do this course but there doesn't appear to be one in England until October!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Why did you buy a new putter?
		
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because PPs were taking the rip out of me for using such an old putter - and it being 30yr old I thought that maybe it had earned it's retirement.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Absolutely.

Feel is with the feet.  This feeling is easy to measure as the individual puts a number on how much slope they feel.  Eyes cannot read greens well.  Eyes lie.  

Skill is about pace and starting the ball on the line you want to.  

Honestly, I'd love to crouch down and say, "Yep, definitely breaking right to left 2 feet, let's sink this bad boy" but I can't.  I honestly can't believe how good the Express read is, how simple it is.  I could teach it to you in 20 minutes.  

Get yourself off to a course. 

#believetoachieve
		
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OK, I will take your word for that.

I dont think I will get myself off to a course though. I am very happy with my putting but I have put rather a lot of practice into it over the years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

3565 said:



			yeah I agree with you from the bottom line and onwards part of your post, and yes to get better you need to practise. Whether it's Bobby 1930's Locke way or the scientific number crunching way, you still got to hit the putt and the fact that a stone or poorly repaired pitch mark deflects the ball, no amount of aiming, mathematical sequencing will stop that. But you know how far you crunch a 7i or half a 52* wedge? Aimpoint is the yardage chart for greens and I have a greater understanding of green reading thru Aimpoint! We are all quick to go and try out the latest driver to gain the grail, but that doesn't put the ball in the hole, nor will the latest Â£300 Cameron, an understanding distance, speed, slope and angle and a sound putting technique will. 

If it's not your bag then it's not, I ain't going to put a gun to your head and say do it, but if you don't know the principle and facts about it your not in a position to really give an objective view as it's based on your 1930's Locke principles. 

Note, don't think that i rely on the system all the time, I have a hard time on flat greens using Aimpoint, and revert back to the normal way
		
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btw Bobby Locke was 1950s (and as it happens a member of my club at the time) - so not quite so far 'back in the day'.  Just watch Bobby Locke putting - it'll freak you out and make you wonder why we bother with all the faffing about we do


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2014)

3565 said:



			Hey that's fine, like you say each to there own, I'm presuming here, but next time you play, use your eyes and judgement and skill, man, clubs and ball in sync and leave your stroke saver, gps or laser finder at home then!!!!!!
		
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atta boy


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			I'm just really loving this method of reading greens and have had instant success with it.
		
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I look forward to hearing how your putting stats have improved  :thup:


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I look forward to hearing how your putting stats have improved  :thup:
		
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They already have!  Celebrate!


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## virtuocity (Feb 7, 2014)

JUST A JOKE!


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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			btw Bobby Locke was 1950s (and as it happens a member of my club at the time) - so not quite so far 'back in the day'.  Just watch Bobby Locke putting - it'll freak you out and make you wonder why we bother with all the faffing about we do 

Click to expand...

Ok he was a younger version of the 50's Locke and amateur till 1938. Wikipedia says so.......


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## 3565 (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			JUST A JOKE!






Click to expand...

:rofl:So true.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			JUST A JOKE!






Click to expand...

Tell me how aimpoint works differently from the 'traditional' method?

I can only think of one difference.......the traditional method is free


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

our green keeper records the stimp reading of various greens on a particular day.    the speeds vary from green to green.     how can you choose a speed and apply it to a chart if it changes every green. 


there is probably some merit in reading the putt but I cant see it being the be all and end all of putting. 

virtuocity - I hope you can give me a quick lesson on this at hillside!


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## backwoodsman (Feb 8, 2014)

Have followed the thread carefully and have to say I'm no wiser as to how it works. But I assume I'm correct in that no-one is taking any actual, physical, measurements? If that is the case, then one can dress it up how you like, but it is still only a method of estimating the line to the hole. However, if attending a course gives one a method to pick the line with more confidence than one used to, then who is to say it doesn't work?

But whatever - without any measurement, it is all estimate or opinion .

And, in any case, is not the hard bit actually hitting the darn thing along your chosen line? I know where I want to hit the ball, but doing it is different matter.


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Tell me how aimpoint works differently from the 'traditional' method?

I can only think of one difference.......the traditional method is free  

Click to expand...

Well, why even use the 'traditional' method. Simply walk up to the ball and hit it towards the hole.

The benefit of doing something slightly more than the above is that it's likely to be more accurate.

And Aimpoint is (meant to be) another step in the 'more accurate' direction.

Of course, you still have to hit it along the selected line and at the right speed. 

And indeed, there are other variables that affect the 'standard' line. But that's the same for all methods. If Stimp readings are wildly out, I'm a little surprised the GK is broadcasting that info. The charts don't are only for whole number stimps, so break is quite possibly not as sensitive to green speed as you may think - and that makes sense to me for gentle slopes; it's how hard you have to hit it that's affected most by green speed.


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## JustOne (Feb 8, 2014)




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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Well, why even use the 'traditional' method. Simply walk up to the ball and hit it towards the hole.

The benefit of doing something slightly more than the above is that it's likely to be more accurate.

And Aimpoint is (meant to be) another step in the 'more accurate' direction.

Of course, you still have to hit it along the selected line and at the right speed. 

And indeed, there are other variables that affect the 'standard' line. But that's the same for all methods. If Stimp readings are wildly out, I'm a little surprised the GK is broadcasting that info. The charts don't are only for whole number stimps, so break is quite possibly not as sensitive to green speed as you may think - and that makes sense to me for gentle slopes; it's how hard you have to hit it that's affected most by green speed.
		
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Well put. 
If a green keeper is admitting that the speed varies from green to green then he's not doing his job properly?
if you watched the PGA tour a couple of seasons ago, they had a green line running on the putting green showing the line of the put and the Aimpoint of the putt, whilst the player was putting. That was Aimpoint. 

We all started playing this game by getting a club and giving it a whack, then start to take it seriously after a while and pick up tips in how to hold and swing and read books, mags, go to a pro to improve our swing, then buy the latest 25yd gain driver and thinking that we WILL get that. But how many on here can actually put their hands up and say 'I've had a green reading lesson'? I'd be very surprised if many at all? There have been golf writers who have heard about it, sceptical, tried, and been surprised of the results. Deep down we all somewhere want to find that thing whether it's latest driver, putter, irons, range finders that gives us the edge, we buy these things hoping it's going to change our game, confidence or what ever, we've all bought something and said well that was a waste of money, but you don't know till you try? ... There is a system that helps with green reading.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Check this out then! http://aimpointgolf.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/if-it-makes-so-much-sense-why-wont-they/

Attitude seem familiar? I think the Author is actually independent too.

Note: Aimpoint developed in Florida on Bermuda greens. Oh, and just as relevant to 'normal' ones - you can't beat gravity!
		
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Most important bit in that one for me was the criteria the author uses to assess putting; Read, Stroke & Commitment.  And the greatest of these for me is commitment.  If you don't commit you'll rarely make anything.  I'm with D4S on this, one trust your judgement and commit to what you see; I've missed far more puts second guessing myself over the ball than I ever have from misreads.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

For what it's worth, I like the sound of the express method. It's the charts that I know I wouldn't get on with. I'm quite good at reading greens as it is but always up for improving. Maybe I'll join homer on the express course, it can't hurt can it?


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

It's just another example of 'emperors new clothes' 


Also it's definitely a recipe for slow play......I forget no one here is slow, but there's enough slow players


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

How many people here who are dismissing aimpoint have...

...Ever had a lesson in reading greens?
...never hit a putt and completely misread the break?
...never 3-stabbed?
...ever wished you could hole more putts?

I'm not an aimpoint user and unlike most I have seen it used first hand, but the number of people with no experience who dismiss it out of hand surprises me. Most of us will invest money, time and effort into lessons and clubs to help us get the ball near the hole, why not invest a little in actually getting the ball in the hole? In all my golfing life, I have never come across anyone who couldn't do with a bit of help reading greens from time to time.


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

our green keeper isnt doing his job as his stimp readings are wildly out.  ha ha ha , remind me what tour im playing in again?

you can gurantee 99% of greens up and dwn the country will vary in speed somewhat.

our green keeper posts the speeds of 6holes every day.  one reading might be 11, the next 10. 

its a lot more than most.


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

JustOne said:








Click to expand...


getting this feeling! hahaha

can someone post a youtube clip telling me how to sink a monster putt using aimpoint. thanks


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			How many people here who are dismissing aimpoint have...

...Ever had a lesson in reading greens?
...never hit a putt and completely misread the break?
...never 3-stabbed?
...ever wished you could hole more putts?
		
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You'd still do all those things with aimpoint, you telling me homie doesn't 3 jab anymore

I've no great objection to it, infact this thread has made me have a more in depth look at it.

I read a long description on golfwrx. It basically told me with aim point I would have to; estimate the distance of the putt, estimate the break and estimate the speed of the putt. Really, that's where I've been going wrong 

I know it formalises the process with a chart, but how much do they charge for getting me to do what I'm already doing??

I'd also make the point, without a repeatable putting stroke it's pointless, and if you have a repeatable putting stroke you don't need it. 

On the infomercial, the fella rolls in 20 foot putt after 20 foot putt, really!!!!

Anyway..I've got these magic beans ..


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## BTatHome (Feb 8, 2014)

Surely if your greens vary then there is no method that will ever work, even some that uses the force will struggle as they won't know the speed of the green until after they have hit the first putt. Aimpoint would be no disadvantage in this case, just as traditional players would have no advantage either!


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			How many people here who are dismissing aimpoint have...

...Ever had a lesson in reading greens?
...never hit a putt and completely misread the break?
...never 3-stabbed?
...ever wished you could hole more putts?

I'm not an aimpoint user and unlike most I have seen it used first hand, but the number of people with no experience who dismiss it out of hand surprises me. Most of us will invest money, time and effort into lessons and clubs to help us get the ball near the hole, why not invest a little in actually getting the ball in the hole? In all my golfing life, I have never come across anyone who couldn't do with a bit of help reading greens from time to time.
		
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I agree. 
And as for the post previous to yours about recipe for slow play, you can't really comment as you've not actually seen it done or tried it! So how do you know it slows play up? They said the same about range finders when they first came out and was allowed to use them, slow up play, slow up play, but in fact there's proof that on average it speeds play by 23 minutes a round using lasers, why? It has taken the indecision away from your mind as to the yardage and you instantly go for the club you want to hit. It's the same with Aimpoint that it gives you how far right/left to aim, so you have a number to work on and you just need to pick that spot 6" right of the hole. I've gotten to the point where I can stand 5yds away while another player is putting and can assess my putt by seeing the zero line at mid point, assess the slope, look at my chart get the number. I may go and check the slope at mid point and if I'm right or I need to adjust then I can. It's no slower then the conventional way once you know what to do.
It's not for everyone I know, and everyone has a view but to actually say it's load of tosh without researching or trying is a bit narrow minded IMO.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			How many people here who are dismissing aimpoint have...

...Ever had a lesson in reading greens?
...never hit a putt and completely misread the break?
...never 3-stabbed?
...ever wished you could hole more putts?

I'm not an aimpoint user and unlike most I have seen it used first hand, but the number of people with no experience who dismiss it out of hand surprises me. Most of us will invest money, time and effort into lessons and clubs to help us get the ball near the hole, why not invest a little in actually getting the ball in the hole? In all my golfing life, I have never come across anyone who couldn't do with a bit of help reading greens from time to time.
		
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I've asked Homer to tell show us his stats improvement wit Aimpoint, but he seems to have adopted the defensive mute stance again.

A real demonstration of improvement rather than promotional guff, may change a few people's attitudes?

Feeling more confident over a read is not really a measure to me


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			You'd still do all those things with aimpoint, you telling me homie doesn't 3 jab anymore

I've no great objection to it, infact this thread has made me have a more in depth look at it.

I read a long description on golfwrx. It basically told me with aim point I would have to; estimate the distance of the putt, estimate the break and estimate the speed of the putt. Really, that's where I've been going wrong 

I know it formalises the process with a chart, but how much do they charge for getting me to do what I'm already doing??

I'd also make the point, without a repeatable putting stroke it's pointless, and if you have a repeatable putting stroke you don't need it. 

On the infomercial, the fella rolls in 20 foot putt after 20 foot putt, really!!!!

Anyway..I've got these magic beans ..

Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, the chart option isn't for me either and I know it isn't going to cure all our putting woes, but if it helps you to read greens, what's not to like? I don't know anywhere else that offers lessons in green reading around my way.


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

So how do you know it slows play up?
		
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I don't. It's just another factor in the mix. On their own info it mentions taking only 15 secs to read the charts. I guess this is additional time after you've read the pace, distance, break etc. 

15 secs extra on 27 putts per round in a 4 ball is about 30 mins extra per round, that's slow play for me.

I wouldn't want to be stuck behind you


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## Imurg (Feb 8, 2014)

I've done some reading up about this and while I'm not going to agree with it, I'm not going to knock it too much either.
It relies on input, from length, pace, slope etc etc...
If any of these are out- you've missed.

I think most people can look at all but the most seriously sloping putts and give you a line that won't be far off.
The biggest variable in putting is pace.
The majority of missed putts as either feet long or feet short not feet left or right. You can have the best read in the world on a putt but if you don't hit it at the right pace it ain't going in.
People who use Aimpoint say that, with practice, they get better reads on their putts. Impossible to argue with. But, as with those who had to spend a significant amount of practice time getting used to belly/broom putters, could that practice time not be used to, you know, practice..?
Not for me but if it helps some then fill yer boots!!


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## BTatHome (Feb 8, 2014)

Only if you stand around doing nothing at all whilst others are putting, and also as said earlier if you use the express method then you don't have the same routine.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 8, 2014)

First I've heard of it tbh. After reading up on it,it's not for me. 
Can't really see how it would affect speed of play. Some people take a lifetime lining up putts regardless of technique.


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

Imurg said:



			I've done some reading up about this and while I'm not going to agree with it, I'm not going to knock it too much either.
It relies on input, from length, pace, slope etc etc...
If any of these are out- you've missed.

I think most people can look at all but the most seriously sloping putts and give you a line that won't be far off.
The biggest variable in putting is pace.
The majority of missed putts as either feet long or feet short not feet left or right. You can have the best read in the world on a putt but if you don't hit it at the right pace it ain't going in.
People who use Aimpoint say that, with practice, they get better reads on their putts. Impossible to argue with. But, as with those who had to spend a significant amount of practice time getting used to belly/broom putters, could that practice time not be used to, you know, practice..?
Not for me but if it helps some then fill yer boots!!
		
Click to expand...


pace is thee biggest factor in 3 putts.  if you the right pace you wont be far away.  :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

Lots of interesting comments on here but it seems to boil down to one thing......confidence. That is a big part of putting but it won't overcome a dodgy technique. Hawkeye raises a valid point, we spend loads on the latest gear but not enough on the basics. If taking the aimpoint course improves your confidence then go for it but it's not for me.

I can give anyone an extremely simple tip that will improve their putting.......but I'd need to charge you for it


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I can give anyone an extremely simple tip that will improve their putting.......but I'd need to charge you for it   

Click to expand...

I'm gonna write it on a card and charge double !!:thup:


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			I'm gonna write it on a card and charge double !!:thup:
		
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I'm gonna do a slideshow and invite people to see it and charge ten times more  :thup:


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## richart (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			You'd still do all those things with aimpoint, you telling me homie doesn't 3 jab anymore

I've no great objection to it, infact this thread has made me have a more in depth look at it.

I read a long description on golfwrx. It basically told me with aim point I would have to; estimate the distance of the putt, estimate the break and estimate the speed of the putt. Really, that's where I've been going wrong 

I know it formalises the process with a chart, but how much do they charge for getting me to do what I'm already doing??

I'd also make the point, without a repeatable putting stroke it's pointless, and if you have a repeatable putting stroke you don't need it. 

On the infomercial, the fella rolls in 20 foot putt after 20 foot putt, really!!!!

Anyway..I've got these magic beans ..

Click to expand...

Just sounds like another case of over thinking to me. I can read greens, well most of the time, but it doesn't mean I have a super smooth stroke that starts the ball on the line I have picked. Seems like something else to take the fun out of the game.

I am thinking of marketing a golfers comfort blanket, so they can get round the course without imploding with so many technical thoughts. Two best putters I have seen are Tiger and Jack, they could find the hole under the greatest pressure. Perhaps copy their methods ?


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## richart (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I can give anyone an extremely simple tip that will improve their putting.......but I'd need to charge you for it   

Click to expand...

 Don't putt into bunkers ?


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I'm gonna do a slideshow and invite people to see it and charge ten times more  :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Call yourself a Pro & you can pretty much name your price:thup:


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Lots of interesting comments on here but it seems to boil down to one thing......confidence. That is a big part of putting but it won't overcome a dodgy technique. Hawkeye raises a valid point, we spend loads on the latest gear but not enough on the basics. If taking the aimpoint course improves your confidence then go for it but it's not for me.

I can give anyone an extremely simple tip that will improve their putting.......but I'd need to charge you for it   

Click to expand...

Then shoot you :thup:


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## standrew (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			JUST A JOKE!






Click to expand...

Hahaha


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			I don't. It's just another factor in the mix. On their own info it mentions taking only 15 secs to read the charts. I guess this is additional time after you've read the pace, distance, break etc. 

15 secs extra on 27 putts per round in a 4 ball is about 30 mins extra per round, that's slow play for me.

I wouldn't want to be stuck behind you
		
Click to expand...

You don't know how it works and how to go about getting the read, so you can't comment on it that it could take this long or that long! It's a kin to your pre shot routine that you practise and over time you refine it that it comes second nature and is a routine that doesn't take the 30 mins extra you talk about!!!!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

richart said:



			Don't putt into bunkers ?

Click to expand...

That's lesson number 2 Rich.....be patient!


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## Qwerty (Feb 8, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			pace is thee biggest factor in 3 putts.  if you the right pace you wont be far away.  :thup:
		
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richart said:



			. Seems like something else to take the fun out of the game.
 ?
		
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Agree with this 


Let's just say for instance that aimpoint works fantastically well and it gives you the correct line on every putt providing pace wise its the intention to hit it 1ft past the hole.

For me it would just feel the same as having someone walking the course with me showing me the line on every putt and I'm not even having to think about it.

Where's the fun in that?


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## virtuocity (Feb 8, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Agree with this 


Let's just say for instance that aimpoint works fantastically well and it gives you the correct line on every putt providing pace wise its the intention to hit it 1ft past the hole.

For me it would just feel the same as having someone walking the course with me showing me the line on every putt and I'm not even having to think about it.

Where's the fun in that? 

Click to expand...

1 irons are fun.


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## standrew (Feb 8, 2014)

Just out of interest, when rangefinders were introduced, were they met with a similar level of opposition? They take a lot of the visual skill out the game as well imo.


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## Qwerty (Feb 8, 2014)

standrew said:



			They take a lot of the visual skill out the game as well imo.
		
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I agree, But I think reading a green is a much more subtle skill and one i take a lot of pleasure from when I get it right.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Call yourself a Pro & you can pretty much name your price:thup:
		
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Which would be great until I was found out and sued


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm still waiting to see the stats that prove aimpoint works for club golfers.


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			...I guess ....
		
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Now that's the problem!



therod said:



			I guess this is *additional time* after you've read the pace, distance, break etc.
		
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And I believe you've guessed wrong!


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I'm still waiting to see the stats that prove aimpoint works for club golfers.
		
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Why do you need stats? If the people who have been on the course are happy, are more confident with their putting and believe or know they themselves are taking less putts, who is anyone to question them?

Of all the people who have been on the course, I've never heard anyone say it doesn't work and hasn't improved their putting - there must be something in that.

The charts aren't for me, but if I can get on the express course I will, you never know, I might learn something.


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I'm still waiting to see the stats that prove aimpoint works for club golfers.
		
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Such stats are impossible to prove as being solely down to Aimpoint.

The 2 guys I've seen using it before/after are noticeably better putters after than they were before. Another guy is a significantly better putter than his handicap would suggest. The couple of low guys who have 'always' used it scare the hole with virtually every putt that makes the distance.

'Overpriced' might be a criticism, but doesn't that apply to most things in Golf?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Why do you need stats? If the people who have been on the course are happy, are more confident with their putting and believe or know they themselves are taking less putts, who is anyone to question them?

Of all the people who have been on the course, I've never heard anyone say it doesn't work and hasn't improved their putting - there must be something in that.

The charts aren't for me, but if I can get on the express course I will, you never know, I might learn something.
		
Click to expand...

Well, if I'm going to invest time and money into something that will supposedly improve my game I think it's only normal to expect a return on it. And let's be honest Mike, how many people would say it hadn't improved their putting after shelling out cash?

Virtuocity, I'd genuinely be interested to see your stats, once you can get back out on the course and put a few rounds together put some numbers up on here  :thup:


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## AmandaJR (Feb 8, 2014)

This interests me as green reading and putting in general can often be the weakest part of my game. I have some good days but, when under pressure, lose confidence quickly. Knowing I've got a handle on the read should hopefully mean I can stroke the putt confidently.

Looks like Jamie Donaldson holds classes in this area so will find out more.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

I think one of the people that has done the course should run a session for everyone else that's interested  :thup:


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Well, if I'm going to invest time and money into something that will supposedly improve my game I think it's only normal to expect a return on it. And let's be honest Mike, how many people would say it hadn't improved their putting after shelling out cash?

Virtuocity, I'd genuinely be interested to see your stats, once you can get back out on the course and put a few rounds together put some numbers up on here  :thup:
		
Click to expand...


It's a fair point, but enough people invest time and money in swing lessons and then claim they didn't work so I don't see why this should be any different.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's a fair point, but enough people invest time and money in swing lessons and then claim they didn't work so I don't see why this should be any different.
		
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C'mon Mike, talk Homer into giving us all a lesson on aimpoint, in return we can then give him tips about his swing  :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2014)

standrew said:



			Just out of interest, when rangefinders were introduced, were they met with a similar level of opposition? They take a lot of the visual skill out the game as well imo.
		
Click to expand...

 LOL - indeed :thup:


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Now that's the problem!



And I believe you've guessed wrong!
		
Click to expand...

You know as well as I do no one is slow, everyone plays ready golf and having a chart to read a green before every putt won't add to an already painfully slow pace of play for some. 

I love it when you dress your opinion up as fact, it just reinforces my guesses!:thup:


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## JustOne (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			The stack and tilt of putting.
		
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New putting laws VS old putting laws except nothing has changed and the new way is the same as the old way that pros always taught yet no one understood them and everyone just got confused, missing 6ft putts all the time. I made putts (and all the pros won majors in the past) without having to know the new OR the old putting laws and I'll continue to do so, sounds like snake oil and I need to know how many pros have won on tour using this method before I can embrace any change whatsoever.   

Now... do I need more weight into my left side or not?


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			You know as well as I do no one is slow, everyone plays ready golf and having a chart to read a green before every putt won't add to an already painfully slow pace of play for some. 

I love it when you dress your opinion up as fact, it just reinforces my guesses!:thup:
		
Click to expand...

What are you going on about? 

Have you actually seen it in action? I have, by several different players, and it's no slower, and quite possibly actually quicker, than the 'traditional' method.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Well, if I'm going to invest time and money into something that will supposedly improve my game I think it's only normal to expect a return on it. And let's be honest Mike, how many people would say it hadn't improved their putting after shelling out cash?

Virtuocity, I'd genuinely be interested to see your stats, once you can get back out on the course and put a few rounds together put some numbers up on here  :thup:
		
Click to expand...

So what your saying is before you even think of splashing the cash you want some stats from players putting since Taking up Aimpoint? 

Expect a return? You can never say you expect a return, you have to work at it to get that return! sounds like your a wait for it to come golfer......


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			You know as well as I do no one is slow, everyone plays ready golf and having a chart to read a green before every putt won't add to an already painfully slow pace of play for some. 

I love it when you dress your opinion up as fact, it just reinforces my guesses!:thup:
		
Click to expand...

Yeah that's what they are......... Guesses.


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Yeah that's what they are......... Guesses.
		
Click to expand...


No it's my opinion, equally as valid as you and foxy's 

It's just another thing, pre shot routine, aimpoint putting etc. The preserve of the mentally weak IMO, looking for an emotional crutch.

The players that will use it will be those that are slow anyway, it will make them slower (ready for it..) IMO :thup:


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			No it's my opinion, equally as valid as you and foxy's
		
Click to expand...

Again, have you seen it? I have, so believe my *observation* has more value than an uninformed *guess*.But you are entitled to an opinion, however uninformed!



therod said:



			It's just another thing, pre shot routine, aimpoint putting etc. *The preserve of the mentally weak IMO, looking for an emotional crutch.*

Click to expand...

A ridiculous statement imo! 



therod said:



			The players that will use it will be those that are slow anyway, it will make them slower (ready for it..) IMO :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Not something I noted from my observations. Perhaps a more consistent time, but not slower overall. The 'clutch' putts were actually noticeably quicker!


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

Weakness  masquerading as a scientific approach!!

Putting should be the most straight forward part of the game, why make it more complicated unless really you're a bit scared of it?

I do however recognise the fact that your observations are more valid than others' opinion:rofl:

I too have observed !! With some I've played with on here.....pre shot etc and sloooooow:thup:

Do you do it yourself foxy??


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## virtuocity (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			The preserve of the mentally weak IMO, looking for an emotional crutch.
		
Click to expand...

If this wasn't the most stupid thing I've read today, I might have been insulted.


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			Do you do it yourself foxy??
		
Click to expand...

No. I've already stated that. Can't justify the cost! 

Or is it emotional weakness!  Fear of disrupting already pretty reasonable Green Reading skills and putting stats.

Doesn't alter any opinion I have on it's validity, or the invalidity of rejecting it out of hand, though!


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			No. I've already stated that. Can't justify the cost! 

Or is it emotional weakness!  Fear of disrupting already pretty reasonable Green Reading skills and putting stats.

Doesn't alter any opinion I have on it's validity, or the invalidity of rejecting it out of hand, though!
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you don't need it... Maybe the force is strong !!:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

Aim point ?! Well I point my putter where I'm aiming and then hit it ? Does that count 

I'm going to guess Homer has done it and has said it has improved his putting but hasn't improved the scoring or handicap 

Reading this thread I'm expecting some big handicap drops this year 

People do realise we are just amateurs having fun ?


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			If this wasn't the most stupid thing I've read today, I might have been insulted.
		
Click to expand...

Most of the stuff I post is nonsense, and normally I'd agree. In this case & with pre shot routines I just reckon that those who invest in them are actually a bit scared of hitting the ball.


Please don't be insulted...think of the hours of counselling :rofl:


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I've asked Homer to tell show us his stats improvement wit Aimpoint, but he seems to have adopted the defensive mute stance again.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm going to guess Homer has done it and has said it has improved his putting but hasn't improved the scoring or handicap 

Reading this thread I'm expecting some big handicap drops this year 

People do realise we are just amateurs having fun ?
		
Click to expand...

Not mute and banter or not I find that comment just a little insulting. Tied up doing other things and hadn't had time to read the thread since middle of last evening

I stopped taking stats of nay nature so impossible to provide actual numbers. Suffice to say from the 15-20 feet range I am much more optimistic of making it or scaring the hole these days as I know the read and usually know the break will be a lot bigger than had I looked at it visually alone. Reading greens pre-Aimpoint was always a weakness even if the stroke was sound

I have done NO work on my putting an haven't played a single hole on 2014 and so it's fair to say I'm not expecting great things early on. I will get back to it and already have a putting lesson booked before the main start of the season in March just to check the mechanics such as address and the path. On the back of this and given the place my swing is in now I am looking for good things this year. Just need to get the chipping sorted and I will be in a very good position (Homer's happy place).

One final note, the chart comes with readings for greens measuring 8-12 on the stimp which covers the majority in the UK. The idea for deciding what stimp to use is to measure a 10 feet putt on the practice green and start with your guesstimate. If the ball over/under breaks you can change the read up or down to the next level. I know many of you will say what happens if the practice green doesn't resemble the real ones. It has happened and with a bit of use and experience you can see after one or two putts if you using a wrong chart by the way the ball breaks. 

As always there will always be doubters naysayers and those that just want to have an online argument without ever having seen it or tried it. I'm not here to convert and wouldn't dream of saying my method is better. What it has done is make me more aware of how slopes affect breaks and how we naturally under read the majority of putts. I have found it a godsend on away courses once I have right chart and it does give me a feeling of confidence on away greens. Placebo? Maybe. However if I can stand there knowing its a 10 inch break on what others think may be a relatively flat putt (and so will under read) then I can make a confident stroke.

Three putting doesn't go away. I can still miss from 1-2 feet where the chart and the read rarely comes into affect. That's solely pilot error and science, the four horsemen of the apocalypse or the second coming will ever eradicate but if the top pros can three putt I really can't see how you can use it as an argument for the inefficiency of the Aimpoint method


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

Homer - are you related to Paddy Harrington in anyway


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Homer - are you related to Paddy Harrington in anyway 

Click to expand...

Well I talked with him when we had a five minute mobile call but I don't remember him mentioning a family connection
		
Click to expand...


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:





Robobum said:



			Well I talked with him when we had a five minute mobile call but I don't remember him mentioning a family connection
		
Click to expand...


 you really do need to relax - it's supposed to be a fun game

I'll give you a bit of a incentive in your quest for single figures - 

If you are single figures by the time H4H day arrives I'll drop Â£50 into the charity
		
Click to expand...


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Well said Homer..


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			Most of the stuff I post is nonsense, and normally I'd agree. In this case & with pre shot routines I just reckon that those who invest in them are actually a bit scared of hitting the ball
		
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hmmm the whole of the professional circuit must be scared then by your drivel........


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I've asked Homer to tell show us his stats improvement wit Aimpoint, but he seems to have adopted the defensive mute stance again.

A real demonstration of improvement rather than promotional guff, may change a few people's attitudes?

Feeling more confident over a read is not really a measure to me
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Aim point ?! Well I point my putter where I'm aiming and then hit it ? Does that count 

I'm going to guess Homer has done it and has said it has improved his putting but hasn't improved the scoring or handicap 

Reading this thread I'm expecting some big handicap drops this year 

People do realise we are just amateurs having fun ?
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:





HomerJSimpson said:



 you really do need to relax - it's supposed to be a fun game
		
Click to expand...

And the humourous reply to your post passes you by. Don't need any incentives thank you. More than happy to do it my own way on my own terms. And guess what. I actually enjoy what I'm doing on and off the course to get as good as I can.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			And the humourous reply to your post passes you by. Don't need any incentives thank you. More than happy to do it my own way on my own terms. And guess what. I actually enjoy what I'm doing on and off the course to get as good as I can.
		
Click to expand...

There was a humerous reply in there ? 

Not fancy taking on my little wager then ? With aim point , swing changes , putting mechanics , good numbers during a club fitting , short game assessments all working together you will be well into single figures and the charity will be Â£50 better off ? 

There is a pro inside you just itching to get out ! Release the pro
		
Click to expand...


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

My retort that when Paddy and I had a conversation on the phone he never mentioned a family connection. 

As I said I don't need a bet, incentive or motive. I've said no to others and will say no to anyone else. I will do it my way and stand or fall by the effort I put in and the performances I put in. If I get there then two fingers to all the knockers on here (can't use I25, aimpoint is crap, GPS are the devils work, chipping is all in your mind etc ad infinitum). If not, I'll get my head down, work harder, learn from my mistakes and try again in 2015. Thanks. Think this is taking it off the Aimpoint topic though


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

Looks like lessons in editing posts wouldn't go amiss for some either!

Hard to follow who's saying/quoting what!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My retort that when Paddy and I had a conversation on the phone he never mentioned a family connection. 

As I said I don't need a bet, incentive or motive. I've said no to others and will say no to anyone else. I will do it my way and stand or fall by the effort I put in and the performances I put in. If I get there then two fingers to all the knockers on here (can't use I25, aimpoint is crap, GPS are the devils work, chipping is all in your mind etc ad infinitum). If not, I'll get my head down, work harder, learn from my mistakes and try again in 2015. Thanks. Think this is taking it off the Aimpoint topic though
		
Click to expand...

That retort was humour ? Oh 

When did you do your aim point course ? And how long have you been playing golf


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			hmmm the whole of the professional circuit must be scared then by your drivel........
		
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Are you seriously comparing your golf to those that make a living on the pro tour. You've got delusions of grandeur pal:thup:

You do realise the 'act like a pro' thread is ironic

Pre shot routines aimpoint you must be a joy in the monthly medal. 

Do you talk about yourself in third person?:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			Are you seriously comparing your golf to those that make a living on the pro tour. You've got delusions of grandeur pal:thup:

You do realise the 'act like a pro' thread is ironic

Pre shot routines aimpoint you must be a joy in the monthly medal. 

Do you talk about yourself in third person?:rofl:
		
Click to expand...


Liverpoolphil likes this


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## tsped83 (Feb 8, 2014)

Time to stop bickering girls, not playing golf is depressing enough without reading this bitch fest.

Having a pop at Homer is a bit cheap too, I don't always agree with his opinions, as I approach the game in a completely different way, but each to their own and more power to him for doing it his way. Digging him out repeatedly just makes YOU look bad.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			Are you seriously comparing your golf to those that make a living on the pro tour. You've got delusions of grandeur pal:thup:

You do realise the 'act like a pro' thread is ironic

Pre shot routines aimpoint you must be a joy in the monthly medal. 

Do you talk about yourself in third person?:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

i never said I was comparing myself to the Pro's, it was idiotic comment bout players having a pre shot routine are scared of hitting a ball. Your obviously the joker on here does your hc reflect your personality :rofl:


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## One Planer (Feb 8, 2014)

Ok gentlemen. 

I know conditions are crap for actual play and it can be frustrating, but please let's try and keep it civil on here. 

If the thread goes any lower you'll leave the moderator panel little option but to lock it. 

You all know the penalties for ignoring moderator advice. 

Consider yourselves warned.


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			i never said I was comparing myself to the Pro's, it was idiotic comment bout players having a pre shot routine are scared of hitting a ball. Your obviously the joker on here does your hc reflect your personality :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you are so defensive, it's just an opinion, if you think it's wrong just state that


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 8, 2014)

Going back to the original post ( seems a long time ago now! ) I've not used Aimpoint but have used the Vector putting system. They're fairly similar in principle ( but not too similar, the court case in the US is dealing with that!) and I've been using it for about a year. 

What it gives me is confidence on putts 20 ft and in ( or an emotional crutch  ) that I'm going to get get down in 2 putts. If you want stats I've taken two shots off in the last year and my driving definitely hasn't contributed to that, neither has my iron play. It works for some, not for others. It's definitely not slowed me down, if anything it's speeded me up as I don't have do dither and over read lines - the science deals with that. And as I'm taking a couple less putts a round then that saves a minute or two surely? 

I'd say don't knock it until you've tried it, but my Vector session cost me Â£40 - based on me having lessons for my long game on a regular basis I saw this as an investment on my enjoyment. 

However the caveat to all this is you have yo have a decent technique for actually hitting putts - that's the starting point


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Jaymosafehands said:



			Going back to the original post ( seems a long time ago now! ) I've not used Aimpoint but have used the Vector putting system. They're fairly similar in principle ( but not too similar, the court case in the US is dealing with that!) and I've been using it for about a year. 

What it gives me is confidence on putts 20 ft and in ( or an emotional crutch  ) that I'm going to get get down in 2 putts. If you want stats I've taken two shots off in the last year and my driving definitely hasn't contributed to that, neither has my iron play. It works for some, not for others. It's definitely not slowed me down, if anything it's speeded me up as I don't have do dither and over read lines - the science deals with that. And as I'm taking a couple less putts a round then that saves a minute or two surely? 

I'd say don't knock it until you've tried it, but my Vector session cost me Â£40 - based on me having lessons for my long game on a regular basis I saw this as an investment on my enjoyment. 

However the caveat to all this is you have yo have a decent technique for actually hitting putts - that's the starting point
		
Click to expand...

been meaning to come over the warrrter to see you Mr Grey...... And do the Vector with your Pro. Best of both worlds and all that, you don't know till you try like you said, you can lead a horse to water........


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 8, 2014)

Ahh Mr M, good to hear from you. Check out the facilities they've got there now - one stop golf, Hull. Great for winter!


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## virtuocity (Feb 8, 2014)

The worst side of the GM forum on show here- by the usual suspects as well.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not mute and banter or not I find that comment just a little insulting. Tied up doing other things and hadn't had time to read the thread since middle of last evening

I stopped taking stats of nay nature so impossible to provide actual numbers. Suffice to say from the 15-20 feet range I am much more optimistic of making it or scaring the hole these days as I know the read and usually know the break will be a lot bigger than had I looked at it visually alone. Reading greens pre-Aimpoint was always a weakness even if the stroke was sound

I have done NO work on my putting an haven't played a single hole on 2014 and so it's fair to say I'm not expecting great things early on. I will get back to it and already have a putting lesson booked before the main start of the season in March just to check the mechanics such as address and the path. On the back of this and given the place my swing is in now I am looking for good things this year. Just need to get the chipping sorted and I will be in a very good position (Homer's happy place).

One final note, the chart comes with readings for greens measuring 8-12 on the stimp which covers the majority in the UK. The idea for deciding what stimp to use is to measure a 10 feet putt on the practice green and start with your guesstimate. If the ball over/under breaks you can change the read up or down to the next level. I know many of you will say what happens if the practice green doesn't resemble the real ones. It has happened and with a bit of use and experience you can see after one or two putts if you using a wrong chart by the way the ball breaks. 

As always there will always be doubters naysayers and those that just want to have an online argument without ever having seen it or tried it. I'm not here to convert and wouldn't dream of saying my method is better. What it has done is make me more aware of how slopes affect breaks and how we naturally under read the majority of putts. I have found it a godsend on away courses once I have right chart and it does give me a feeling of confidence on away greens. Placebo? Maybe. However if I can stand there knowing its a 10 inch break on what others think may be a relatively flat putt (and so will under read) then I can make a confident stroke.

Three putting doesn't go away. I can still miss from 1-2 feet where the chart and the read rarely comes into affect. That's solely pilot error and science, the four horsemen of the apocalypse or the second coming will ever eradicate but if the top pros can three putt I really can't see how you can use it as an argument for the inefficiency of the Aimpoint method
		
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What this is basically saying to me is that you were crap at reading greens and you've had a lesson in how to do it?


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## AmandaJR (Feb 8, 2014)

It strikes me as rather weird that there's a "product" out there which could help golfers score better and perform better at a massive element of the game and yet it is scorned, ridiculed, accused of being borderline cheating, accused of being a cause of slow play and a crutch for those poor souls that are absolutely useless or take the game far too seriously!

All by those who have never even tried it but (I assume) play this game for fun but also to try and be the best they can be.

Quite bizarre.


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## bluewolf (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			The worst side of the GM forum on show here- by the usual suspects as well.
		
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But I haven't said anything yet?????

My tuppence - As someone who plays with a chronically poor putter, I'm all for something that improves confidence. I haven't seen anyone using the system yet (but I have played with Homer before the lesson and he putted well that day at Woburn).

It's not something that I'm overly interested in as I appear to have found a rich vein of putting form at the moment, but I might suggest it to my regular PP (As I'm sick of suggesting that he should practice his putting regularly).:thup:


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 8, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			It strikes me as rather weird that there's a "product" out there which could help golfers score better and perform better at a massive element of the game and yet it is scorned, ridiculed, accused of being borderline cheating, accused of being a cause of slow play and a crutch for those poor souls that are absolutely useless or take the game far too seriously!

All by those who have never even tried it but (I assume) play this game for fun but also to try and be the best they can be.

Quite bizarre.
		
Click to expand...

+1.


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## Piece (Feb 8, 2014)

Now that the handbags have been put(t) away, my view is that Aimpoint is a worthwhile tool for those that think they need it. It has benefits for those that do struggle to read greens, but it also works for full blown pros too that are good putters anyway. I know local club pros and those that occasionally do GM teaching sections that do Aimpoint. I can see the benefit as it takes some of the complexity out of putting.

Personally it's not for me at the moment. I like to feel and work out a putt, rather than mechanically trust a chart. Yet I was the same skeptic about VIBEs in putters until I used one years ago and now think it is the best thing since sliced bread.


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			It strikes me as rather weird that there's a "product" out there which could help golfers score better and perform better at a massive element of the game and yet it is scorned, ridiculed, accused of being borderline cheating, accused of being a cause of slow play and a crutch for those poor souls that are absolutely useless or take the game far too seriously!

All by those who have never even tried it but (I assume) play this game for fun but also to try and be the best they can be.

Quite bizarre.
		
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:rofl:

Could well be worth saving that post Amanda. Almost certainly applicable, perhaps with minor adjustment, elsewhere!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

Piece said:



			Now that the handbags have been put(t) away, my view is that Aimpoint is a worthwhile tool for those that think they need it. It has benefits for those that do struggle to read greens, but it also works for full blown pros too that are good putters anyway. I know local club pros and those that occasionally do GM teaching sections that do Aimpoint. I can see the benefit as it takes some of the complexity out of putting.

Personally it's not for me at the moment. I like to feel and work out a putt, rather than mechanically trust a chart. Yet I was the same skeptic about VIBEs in putters until I used one years ago and now think it is the best thing since sliced bread.
		
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Fair comment  :thup:  

For those that need an emotional crutch then it may be a good thing, for those that can already read a green to a reasonable level then it's probably a waste of money.

I can read greens     I just struggle to hit the putt at the correct pace


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			The worst side of the GM forum on show here- by the usual suspects as well.
		
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I resemble that remark


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

It was a very simple question.

Are you taking less putts after using this method?

I'm having difficulty seeing how confidence over the putt can go up if you aren't seeing the ball go in the hole more. Are Ascots greens so slopey that you were missing low side by a few feet? If not, a two putt (or three) is still a two putt.


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## virtuocity (Feb 8, 2014)

This "emotional crutch" talk is embarrassing.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Fair comment  :thup:  

For those that need an emotional crutch then it may be a good thing, for those that can already read a green to a reasonable level then it's probably a waste of money.

I can read greens     I just struggle to hit the putt at the correct pace  

Click to expand...

Maybe you need to read putts for the pace you hit it at?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			This "emotional crutch" talk is embarrassing.
		
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Don't worry mate, this should help    1-800-SAMARITANS


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			It strikes me as rather weird that there's a "product" out there which could help golfers score better and perform better at a massive element of the game and yet it is scorned, ridiculed, accused of being borderline cheating, accused of being a cause of slow play and a crutch for those poor souls that are absolutely useless or take the game far too seriously!

All by those who have never even tried it but (I assume) play this game for fun but also to try and be the best they can be.

Quite bizarre.
		
Click to expand...

That's what I was trying to say, but not so eloquently(sp?) put :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Maybe you need to read putts for the pace you hit it at?
		
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No.....I just need to hit putts that reach the hole  

My preferred method is to ram the ball into the front of the hole


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## virtuocity (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Don't worry mate, this should help    1-800-SAMARITANS   

Click to expand...


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			This "emotional crutch" talk is embarrassing.
		
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Not really mate, it's akin to a pre shot routine, it gives you a mechanical structure to follow to give you confidence to hit the ball. It's very regimented, but there's no need to be embarrassed, fill your boots :thup:


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## virtuocity (Feb 8, 2014)

therod said:



			Not really mate, it's akin to a pre shot routine, it gives you a mechanical structure to follow to give you confidence to hit the ball. It's very regimented, but there's no need to be embarrassed, fill your boots :thup:
		
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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

virtuocity said:








[/QUOTE
Have you for a library of these for every occasion??

Click to expand...


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

So can the people using it give me their improvement figures in terms of handicap decreases and scoring in competitions to show the improvement since taking on this method of putting ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			No.....I just need to hit putts that reach the hole  

My preferred method is to ram the ball into the front of the hole  

Click to expand...


Sorry D4S, I was only joking


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can the people using it give me their improvement figures in terms of handicap decreases and scoring in competitions to show the improvement since taking on this method of putting ?
		
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I've already had this discussion on the thread (#153). Are you DelC in disguise and just keep repeating yourself until it validates your point. I haven't kept stats so no way of verifying it in numbers other than I know I am holing more in the 15-20 area and can go to any course I've not played and understand how the ball will react.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Sorry D4S, I was only joking 

Click to expand...

I wasn't


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## richart (Feb 8, 2014)

It is a forum to discuss on. It would be very boring if everyone agreed with each other. You should be able to make your point without getting personal. You should also be able to have a bit of banter without forumers taking umbrage. Personally I would never say anything to someone on here I wouldn't say to their face, and knowing some of the characters on here, I am sure they are the same.

Just pull down your pants and slide on the ice.:whoo:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I've already had this discussion on the thread (#153). Are you DelC in disguise and just keep repeating yourself until it validates your point. I haven't kept stats so no way of verifying it in numbers other than I know I am holing more in the 15-20 area and can go to any course I've not played and understand how the ball will react.
		
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Are you the only person who has used this method or was the post I made directed at more than just yourself 

Understand how the ball will react ?! Sorry but can you explain that statement please ?


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## richart (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			No.....I just need to hit putts that reach the hole  

My preferred method is to ram the ball into the front of the hole  

Click to expand...

 I would just like to say that D4S is one of the best putters I have played with. His chipping is another matter.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

richart said:



			I would just like to say that D4S is one of the best putters I have played with. His chipping is another matter.

Click to expand...

Goddam you Richard......I thought I was going to go an entire thread with no mention of my chipping  :sbox:

But thanks for the compliment on my putting


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you the only person who has used this method or was the post I made directed at more than just yourself 

Understand how the ball will react ?! Sorry but can you explain that statement please ?
		
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Read the whole thread. Explained very clearly how Aimpoint works for me. Feel you are just stirring the pot some more


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

richart said:



			I would just like to say that D4S is one of the best putters I have played with. His chipping is another matter.

Click to expand...


No point being both, if you can't chip, it helps to be able to putt, if you can't putt, it helps to be able to chip :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No point being both, if you can't chip, it helps to be able to putt, if you can't putt, it helps to be able to chip :thup:
		
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Good point! Given the choice I'll take good putter. Only thing worse than chipping stone dead then missing the putt is putting into a bunker. 

But nobody would ever do that...........??


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Read the whole thread. Explained very clearly how Aimpoint works for me. Feel you are just stirring the pot some more
		
Click to expand...


Again - are you the only person to use this method ? 

Yes you don't keep stats - thank you for letting me know 

Now let's see what other people who use this method bring to the table 

Never heard of this method and I'm trying to see the positive from actual results on the course 

For example since people had their lesson how has their handicap been and competition results - simple stats that could show an improvement ( I'm sure you keep those stats though )


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Good point! Given the choice I'll take good putter. Only thing worse than chipping stone dead then missing the putt is putting into a bunker. 

But nobody would ever do that...........??  

Click to expand...

That's how I get by, I certainly don't get to playing off of 8 by good chipping! (I've never putted into a bunker though )


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again - are you the only person to use this method ? 

Yes you don't keep stats - thank you for letting me know 

Now let's see what other people who use this method bring to the table 

Never heard of this method and I'm trying to see the positive from actual results on the course 

For example since people had their lesson how has their handicap been and competition results - simple stats that could show an improvement ( I'm sure you keep those stats though )
		
Click to expand...

How bout you give us your putting stats, you must keep them?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I've never putted into a bunker though 

Click to expand...

I'm sure Richart will be along soon to own up to doing it. I did give him the line though, maybe if I'd done the aimpoint course I would have given him the right one  :mmm:


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			How bout you give us your putting stats, you must keep them?
		
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What's that going to show us about Aimpoint?


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never heard of this method and I'm trying to see the positive from actual results on the course 

For example since people had their lesson how has their handicap been and competition results - simple stats that could show an improvement ( I'm sure you keep those stats though )
		
Click to expand...

As I posted several pages ago, I don't believe such stats are possible!

PGA 'Strokes Gained - Putting' data and movement up the list might be the best indicator. But there are too many other variables involved at our level.

I do know a Pro who went on the course but decided it wasn't the method for him! He didn't consider it bad or slow though, just 'un-natural' - for him.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			How bout you give us your putting stats, you must keep them?
		
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Why must I keep them ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			As I posted several pages ago, I don't believe such stats are possible!

PGA 'Strokes Gained - Putting' data and movement up the list might be the best indicator. But there are too many other variables involved at our level.

I do know a Pro who went on the course but decided it wasn't the method for him! He didn't consider it bad or slow though, just 'un-natural' - for him.
		
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So would you expect a successful method of putting to provide better results in comps and a decrease in handicap ?


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			That's how I get by, I certainly don't get to playing off of 8 by good chipping! (I've never putted into a bunker though )
		
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Nor did gordon, I believe it may have been someone else r.....t 

Maybe he's a man that could benefit from aimpoint, I'm sure I've seen the 'don't putt into the bunker' message on the promo!!


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why must I keep them ?
		
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The only stat he needs is 5.1, the rest is academic


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can the people using it give me their improvement figures in terms of handicap decreases and scoring in competitions to show the improvement since taking on this method of putting ?
		
Click to expand...

Yep. Using a similar system - read my post earlier in the thread - I chopped 2 shots off since adopting the system. Do you want my spreadsheet to confirm the stats (signed by my mum for authentication) ? 

Just because you doubt it don't doubt others. I can't abide black gloves on a golf clue, but if others choose them I won't slate them


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why must I keep them ?
		
Click to expand...

Surely if you have such a train spotter like addiction to stats you'd keep them to prove that your non-Aimpoint method is working for. No? Didn't think so. Stop banging on about stats then. It isn't what Aimpoint is about and either you are being deliberately obtuse or missing the point. It is a green reading method


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			What's that going to show us about Aimpoint?
		
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He keeps asking so why not divulge? Homer doesn't keep stats but has said all along that what it does for him is to narrow his focus at a point that he putts towards and that gives him the confidence to then hit the putt. He has seen results I'm sure similar to mine where the ball tracks to the hole more often then before and he either cans it, shaves it topside or miss on low side which now becomes a speed issue. We in this country very rarely play on a12 stimp. But I'd be more confident and trust the system in playing the breaks as the quicker the greens the more break required......


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

Jaymosafehands said:



			Yep. Using a similar system - read my post earlier in the thread - I chopped 2 shots off since adopting the system. Do you want my spreadsheet to confirm the stats (signed by my mum for authentication) ? 

Just because you doubt it don't doubt others. I can't abide black gloves on a golf clue, but if others choose them I won't slate them
		
Click to expand...

Apologies missed your post and thank you for showing me your improvement - ( that's all I asked ) 

Well done on improving your handicap -:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Surely if you have such a train spotter like addiction to stats you'd keep them to prove that your non-Aimpoint method is working for. No? Didn't think so. Stop banging on about stats then. It isn't what Aimpoint is about and either you are being deliberately obtuse or missing the point. It is a green reading method
		
Click to expand...

I asked for handicap reductions and competition results - one person has shown the method has helped them improve their handicap 

My handicap not using the method is 5 :thup: - that is the stat I maintain and the only stat I have asked


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why must I keep them ?
		
Click to expand...

Your a Cat 1 player surely you need to keep stats to see where you can improve to get lower or are you satisfied with 5.1?


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

:rofl:



therod said:



			The only stat he needs is 5.1, the rest is academic
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Your a Cat 1 player surely you need to keep stats to see where you can improve to get lower or are you satisfied with 5.1?
		
Click to expand...

Never kept a stat in my life 

I go out to enjoy the game and what happens is immaterial as long as I enjoy myself 

I'm satisfied just enjoying myself


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## standrew (Feb 8, 2014)

Wow this thread got crazy. Anyway im taking the course and Ill just wait to see if i lose my fun putting, bring the course to a halt, lose my natural instinct, waste money and become 'that guy'.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never kept a stat in my life 

I go out to enjoy the game and what happens is immaterial as long as I enjoy myself 

I'm satisfied just enjoying myself
		
Click to expand...

Strangely enough I enjoy my golf even the bad ones. Just because I use Aimpoint you seem to be making an assumption is somehow not helping me do this


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never kept a stat in my life 

I go out to enjoy the game and what happens is immaterial as long as I enjoy myself 

I'm satisfied just enjoying myself
		
Click to expand...

Then stop attacking Homer then! He enjoys his golf, he does what he does to improve whether it's Aimpoint, Nopoint or Somepoint. It's quite clear you only play to enjoy the game but don't have a go at players who want to improve.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Strangely enough I enjoy my golf even the bad ones. Just because I use Aimpoint you seem to be making an assumption is somehow not helping me do this
		
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Simple question yes or no 

Has using aimpoint help you improve your competition results and decrease your handicap


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Then stop attacking Homer then! He enjoys his golf, he does what he does to improve whether it's Aimpoint, Nopoint or Somepoint. It's quite clear you only play to enjoy the game but don't have a go at players who want to improve.
		
Click to expand...


I haven't "attacked" anyone - I asked a question aimed at everyone 

I asked a simple question on the improvement using a different putting method 

So far the only replies are ones on the defensive about such method without actually quantifying the improvements in terms on handicap decreases and competitions results 

One person has shown how the change in method has improved their handicap


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Simple question yes or no 

Has using aimpoint help you improve your competition results and decrease your handicap
		
Click to expand...

I think in the context of this thread, this is a valid question. Don't really understand the reluctance to answer it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I think in the context of this thread, this is a valid question. Don't really understand the reluctance to answer it.
		
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I didn't realise it was such a bad question that has evoked such a reaction from some people


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			He keeps asking so why not divulge? Homer doesn't keep stats but has said all along that what it does for him is to narrow his focus at a point that he putts towards and that gives him the confidence to then hit the putt. He has seen results I'm sure similar to mine where the ball tracks to the hole more often then before and he either cans it, shaves it topside or miss on low side which now becomes a speed issue. We in this country very rarely play on a12 stimp. But I'd be more confident and trust the system in playing the breaks as the quicker the greens the more break required......
		
Click to expand...

Homer religiously kept stats using SS2, he posted about using that software on a daily basis about one part of the game or another - so he has got stats. Fine, he doesn't keep them anymore but surely you would have a snapshot over a couple or few rounds?! Within 30 secs I could recount the putts from last 2 rounds to at least get an idea.

Making more mid range putts would make a dent in my h'cap. I've said a few times on here that I don't convert enough birdie chances. I was genuinely interested in seeing if the method had demonstrated a tangible improvement rather than a feel.

Never mind


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

[video=youtube;7e8UgT6LrW4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8UgT6LrW4[/video]

good video this.    it kind of backs up my idea of seeing my line on a big breaking putt, then giving it a little more.   not exactly scientific but it works for me.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Simple question yes or no 

Has using aimpoint help you improve your competition results and decrease your handicap
		
Click to expand...

Yes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Yes.
		
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See that wasn't hard was it - what was your improvement ?


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			[video=youtube;7e8UgT6LrW4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8UgT6LrW4[/video]

good video this.    it kind of backs up my idea of seeing my line on a big breaking putt, then giving it a little more.   not exactly scientific but it works for me.
		
Click to expand...

I watched that video when searching for it. Where does this chart come in though?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			[video=youtube;7e8UgT6LrW4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8UgT6LrW4[/video]

good video this.    it kind of backs up my idea of seeing my line on a big breaking putt, then giving it a little more.   not exactly scientific but it works for me.
		
Click to expand...

All derived from the golf channels aimpoint ?


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

can someone post the putting stats of the pros again.   once they get outside 10 feet it becomes a lottery if they make it or not. 


just cut down the three putts.   

if this system was so good pros would forget about swing changes and work on this alone.  its as simple as that!  the money is made on the green!


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I watched that video when searching for it. Where does this chart come in though?
		
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no idea chap.  I'm still a bit lost with the whole aim point thing, but it has shown me I am on the right path at "reading" by doing what I am doing.   

I just found this vid when looking up aimpoint. I thought it was worth sharing.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			can someone post the putting stats of the pros again.   once they get outside 10 feet it becomes a lottery if they make it or not. 


just cut down the three putts.   

if this system was so good pros would forget about swing changes and work on this alone.  its as simple as that!  the money is made on the green!
		
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I am only looking to increase chances of regularly making ONE more putt per round from this range


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			See that wasn't hard was it - what was your improvement ?
		
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Can I just point out that Liverpoolphil doesn't work for the FBI & you don't have to put up with interrogation :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			no idea chap.  I'm still a bit lost with the whole aim point thing, but it has shown me I am on the right path at "reading" by doing what I am doing.   

I just found this vid when looking up aimpoint. I thought it was worth sharing.
		
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One method I have seen being used by a pro is first finding the straight putt on the green and then pacing until you reach your ball then use the amount of steps to judge the break and how far left or right the aim needs to be


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I am only looking to increase chances of regularly making ONE more putt per round from this range
		
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the ONLY way to do this is spend more time on the practice green.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I am only looking to increase chances of regularly making ONE more putt per round from this range
		
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When inside that are your misses the same , short, long , high or low ? 

Mine used to be high - lots of missed putts above the hole. Found my putter face was open on impact


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Homer religiously kept stats using SS2, he posted about using that software on a daily basis about one part of the game or another - so he has got stats. Fine, he doesn't keep them anymore but surely you would have a snapshot over a couple or few rounds?! Within 30 secs I could recount the putts from last 2 rounds to at least get an idea.

Making more mid range putts would make a dent in my h'cap. I've said a few times on here that I don't convert enough birdie chances. I was genuinely interested in seeing if the method had demonstrated a tangible improvement rather than a feel.

Never mind 

Click to expand...

a recent round in January winter stableford.

PAR	   4	4	4	4	3	5	4	4	3	35	4	4	4	5	3	5	4	3	4	36	71
SCOR.  3	6	5	4	4	4	5	5	4	40	4	3	3	4	3	5	3	2	4	31	71


Putts    1	2	2	2	3	1	2	2	2	17	2	1	1	1	2	2	1	1	1	12	1.6/29

To date my putts per hole 1.75
GIR 1.88


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Can I just point out that Liverpoolphil doesn't work for the FBI & you don't have to put up with interrogation :thup:
		
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Can I point out that once again you quote me in a thread with zero relevance to the thread :thup:


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One method I have seen being used by a pro is first finding the straight putt on the green and then pacing until you reach your ball then use the amount of steps to judge the break and how far left or right the aim needs to be
		
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ive seen that but I still don't get how it can read EVERY green.  it just doesn't compute with me.   loads of greens have subtle breaks both ways, or a little break here, then straight, then more break.  I just cant see how a system can read this.    then there is the pace.    

I don't know.  in a way, I kind of a agree with SILH. if someone was to show me the exact line of every putt, I would feel it takes away some of the challenge.   at the same time, there is no one line, it all depends on PACE!!!!


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 8, 2014)

People use different putting techniques,it's really not a big deal. You don't have to start producing stats just to justify why you do it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			ive seen that but I still don't get how it can read EVERY green.  it just doesn't compute with me.   loads of greens have subtle breaks both ways, or a little break here, then straight, then more break.  I just cant see how a system can read this.    then there is the pace.    

I don't know.  in a way, I kind of a agree with SILH. if someone was to show me the exact line of every putt, I would feel it takes away some of the challenge.   at the same time, there is no one line, it all depends on PACE!!!!
		
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I have no idea how it works on every green also 

And your last statement is spot on - it's all about the pace. Get the pace right and you won't go far wrong ( something I have improved on )


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All derived from the golf channels aimpoint ?
		
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Mark Sweeney the originator of Aimpoint let golf channel use the system to show it. John Graham is an avid Aimpoint and certified teacher.


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So would you expect a successful method of putting to provide better results in comps and a decrease in handicap ?
		
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Define 'successful'!

How would you measure whether it is or it isn't?

How would you know that the results weren't influenced by other factors?

As for the query about Pace...

One of the fundamentals about the tool is that the calculation uses a pace such that if the ball fails to go in it goes past the hole by a certain amount (6 inches I believe). The other truism is 'you can't beat gravity'! Bermuda style grain notwithstanding, those are the only variables required - as their computer modeled PGA used tool demonstrates!


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no idea how it works on every green also 

And your last statement is spot on - it's all about the pace. Get the pace right and you won't go far wrong ( something I have improved on )
		
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Are you sure it's ALL about pace? You really think it is?


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			One method I have seen being used by a pro is first finding the straight putt on the green and then pacing until you reach your ball then use the amount of steps to judge the break and how far left or right the aim needs to be
		
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The method I use is to walk up the slope until I find what I think is a straight putt and imagine a line from the hole to where I am standing. I then go back to my ball and imagine a line from my ball to the midway point of the straight putt line, that's my aim line. It's not an exact science as the break won't be uniform for the entire length of the putt but it is close enough and seems to get me on a good line.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Define 'successful'!

How would you measure whether it is or it isn't?

How would you know that the results weren't influenced by other factors?
		
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Successful - provide the positive results you want 

You can measure it yourself - one person has already said it has improved his handicap by 2 shots :thup:


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## Imurg (Feb 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			People use different putting techniques,it's really not a big deal. You don't have to start producing stats just to justify why you do it.
		
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But surely you would want to see some form of improvement otherwise why use it...?


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## fundy (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When inside that are your misses the same , short, long , high or low ? 

Mine used to be high - lots of missed putts above the hole. Found my putter face was open on impact
		
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Surely you would miss most putts on the right hand side, rather than the high side (which could either be left or right)?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The method I use is to walk up the slope until I find what I think is a straight putt and imagine a line tfrom the hole to where I am standing. I then go back to my ball and imagine a line from my ball to the midway point of the straight putt line, that's my aim line. It's not an exact science as the break won't be uniform for the entire length of the putt but it is close enough and seems to get me on a good line.
		
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I just look at the line - then just try to imagine the break and the pace needed then hit it


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

fundy said:



			Surely you would miss most posts on the right hand side, rather than the high side (which could either be left or right)?
		
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Sorry yes - right side ( always call it the high side )


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I just look at the line - then just try to imagine the break and the pace needed then hit it
		
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That's what I used to do but found I wasn't allowing enough break. Not sure how I came up with this method, it must be the engineer in me, but it seems to work better which is all that matters


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			at the same time, there is no one line, it all depends on PACE!!!!
		
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Spot on  :thup:

A mate of mine absolutely smashes the ball at the hole whereas my putts are much more dead weight, we can take completely different lines for the same putt.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			That's what I used to do but found I wasn't allowing enough break. Not sure how I came up with this method, it must be the engineer in me, but it seems to work better which is all that matters
		
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Exactly - it works for you 

I do like to give it a bit more to take a lot of the break of it


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 8, 2014)

Imurg said:



			But surely you would want to see some form of improvement otherwise why use it...?
		
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I agree 100%.I just don't think you need to produce stats to make some one else happy. Homer uses it but he hasn't come on here saying we should all use it & it will transform our game.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			See that wasn't hard was it - what was your improvement ?
		
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Went from 3 and got to 1.6 have since gone up due to swing changes plus playing comps during winter period. Although I have posted a round earlier showing some stats.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I agree 100%.I just don't think you need to produce stats to make some one else happy. Homer uses it but he hasn't come on here saying we should all use it & it will transform our game.
		
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But those who are interested have asked how it has improved his putting.......zero evidence that it has.

It's not a case of religiously churning out stats, but you've got to have at least a handle on it? Surely?


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Successful - provide the positive results you want
		
Click to expand...

That's the wooliest measurement I've ever encountered! Ideal attributes for a Politician or a Journalist!



Liverpoolphil said:



			You can measure it yourself - one person has already said it has improved his handicap by 2 shots :thup:
		
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Not doubting, but can he be absolutely certain that was the reason? Was that the only change? Did he practice his putting more - perhaps to embed the method? I improved my handicap by 2 shots over a short period, a number of times. Most of them I didn't actually change a thing!

Now, a movement of a Pro up the 'Shots Gained - Putting' list would indicate an improvement in putting (overall and relative to other players).


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Went from 3 and got to 1.6 have since gone up due to swing changes plus playing comps during winter period. Although I have posted a round earlier showing some stats.
		
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Very good scoring :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Went from 3 and got to 1.6 have since gone up due to swing changes plus playing comps during winter period. Although I have posted a round earlier showing some stats.
		
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This is the sort of improvement that sparks my interest. When you get low the improvements tend to be around the greens rather than through the swing.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			But those who are interested have asked how it has improved his putting.......zero evidence that it has.

It's not a case of religiously churning out stats, but you've got to have at least a handle on it? Surely?
		
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I don't think it's people showing interest more a case of being sceptic instead of an open mind. I've already stated how my hc came down and posted a round earlier I played in a comp in January.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			I don't think it's people showing interest more a case of being sceptic instead of an open mind. I've already stated how my hc came down and posted a round earlier I played in a comp in January.
		
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Well you're wrong, I am interested.

There was no comparison to pre Aimpoint rounds - just a one round score


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very good scoring :thup:
		
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thank you. But I will be the first to say that even tho I use Aimpoint it's a combination of everything that had improved, hitting more fairways was my main priority and still is to be able to hit more greens to take advantage of Aimpoint.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			But those who are interested have asked how it has improved his putting.......zero evidence that it has.

It's not a case of religiously churning out stats, but you've got to have at least a handle on it? Surely?
		
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I've said I'm making more 15-20 footers. I have nothing statistically to back this up. All I need to do is get the ball in play off the tee and chip and I am in business. Think my position is clear enough and I am happy with it so that's all I care about. Whether others think its old tosh, placebo, hocus pocus or whatever is up to them.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I've said I'm making more 15-20 footers. I have nothing statistically to back this up. All I need to do is get the ball in play off the tee and chip and I am in business. Think my position is clear enough and I am happy with it so that's all I care about. Whether others think its old tosh, placebo, hocus pocus or whatever is up to them.
		
Click to expand...


2 simple questions:

How many putts in your last round using Aimpoint?

How many 15-20ft putts were holed in that single round?


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Well you're wrong, I am interested.

There was no comparison to pre Aimpoint rounds - just a one round score
		
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my coach at the time wasn't interested in putts per hole. He was more interested in how far away I was for a birdies in feet and how many I made. I kept a record of birdie footage putts for a year, then averaged it out and found I was averaging 12 ft, so that gave me a general idea of where I needed to focus my putting distance from. That's where I went to Aimpoint to see what the fuss was all about and would say my putting stats have improved then pre Aimpoint. I did have stats before but lost them.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2014)

I know a guy that won the Order of Merit on the Euro Tour last year and will play in the European Challenge Tour this year.   He practises his putting, chipping and pitching a great deal.   Maybe if we all practised ours more we would have a good chance to lower our handicaps.   If this system gets you practising more then it will probably help you by gaining a better feel.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

No idea. Last round was December 14th and can't remember. I used Aimpoint on every green I was in (4BBB match so didn't finish all of them). In that round not many as Hawkeye and I both played below average. These threads are still about numbers. My position is clear. I use it. I like it and I think it helps. No point asking me for more info as I don't have the details on how many putts from that range or others I've made in the last two years since using it other than I know in my own mind many more are going in. I only kept number of putts and not any record of the distances and not kept stats since early 2013


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			But those who are interested have asked how it has improved his putting.......zero evidence that it has.

It's not a case of religiously churning out stats, but you've got to have at least a handle on it? Surely?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe it just gives him more confidence. 
If he wants to answer the questions I'm sure he will.


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## Qwerty (Feb 8, 2014)

A question for the aimpoint users...   How do measure the Slope/break  without using some kind of device?   I just watched a video on the subject but I'm still non the wiser.


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 8, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's the wooliest measurement I've ever encountered! Ideal attributes for a Politician or a Journalist!



Not doubting, but can he be absolutely certain that was the reason? Was that the only change? Did he practice his putting more - perhaps to embed the method? I improved my handicap by 2 shots over a short period, a number of times. Most of them I didn't actually change a thing!

Now, a movement of a Pro up the 'Shots Gained - Putting' list would indicate an improvement in putting (overall and relative to other players).
		
Click to expand...

I'm certain it was the major reason. I still can't hit a consistent drive and am average with my irons, but now I'm the best putter in my group (including 4 single fig boys) and made the regional finals for Britains best putter. 

All I'd say is that the game is about slapping a small white thing into a hole twice it's size. If this works for the individual then it's absolutely the right thing to do. If you don't need to improve this aspect or don't believe in gaining a potential advantage using a scientific approach compared to using 'feel' then god speed to you. 

Play well and enjoy


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## garyinderry (Feb 8, 2014)

how do you read a 1/2 inch outside the cup putt using aimpoint?    fine margins this putting lark!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 8, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			A question for the aimpoint users...   How do measure the Slope/break  without using some kind of device?   I just watched a video on the subject but I'm still non the wiser.
		
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There is a chart based on the severity of the slope, position of the ball and the speed of the green. It takes a matter of seconds once you get use to it


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## stevelev (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			2 simple questions:

How many putts in your last round using Aimpoint?

How many 15-20ft putts were holed in that single round?
		
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 Think that there are only a couple of you worried about ststs and obviosly not getting the answers you want. Maybe stop asking.

I for one and I think there are others totally understand that homer has done the course and it has helped him to enjoy the game more, given him more confidence over putts.  Bit like having a gps to give you confidence of a distance or planner so you know what hazards there are.

Homer do you or any of the others that have done this course know who does it near manchester, I would like to look into it and have even a little more confidence over putts and enjoy my game more. I alread putt well just crap at the rest of it, but confidence is always appreciated.

Glad your enjoying thr gsme more since you did the course.

For all the ne'sayers, fine but accpet there is more than one to skin a cat. And if the stats bother you that much do the course and see if you improve or stop hounding other for it is only your use of the instruction that can tell you if it works for you.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			A question for the aimpoint users...   How do measure the Slope/break  without using some kind of device?   I just watched a video on the subject but I'm still non the wiser.
		
Click to expand...

By standing up straight and allow gravity to dictate where your weight is in your feet. If it's flat then weight should be toe area which would be 1%. 2% will be about slightly further away from your toes, about toe ball joint, 3 is middle of foot until 4% will be on your heels. That's how you assess slope.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			There is a chart based on the severity of the slope, position of the ball and the speed of the green. It takes a matter of seconds once you get use to it
		
Click to expand...

OK...help me out here please.

My ball is 18ft from the hole. How do I work out the line from here? Do I have to guess the stimp speed? How do I work out what the slope is from your chart? It's been pointed out that the greens are not mapped so what calculation is used?

I'm not trying to disparage the method, just curious as to how it all works.


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## richart (Feb 8, 2014)

If it doesn't slow up play, I have no problem with it. Each to his own. If I played with someone and it was slowing up play I would have words. I know there are some on here that take the game very seriously, even obsessively in my opinion, but I believe the majority of golfers just want to get out on the course and enjoy the game. If I mentioned Aimpoint to my playing partners they would probably never play with me again.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

I think I've got it, it makes the user feel more confident.

That's just brilliant - 40 confident putts!

The Aimpoint hashtag is/ was #makeeverything - that must mean someone keeps count.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

stevelev said:



			Think that there are only a couple of you worried about ststs and obviosly not getting the answers you want. Maybe stop asking.

I for one and I think there are others totally understand that homer has done the course and it has helped him to enjoy the game more, given him more confidence over putts.  Bit like having a gps to give you confidence of a distance or planner so you know what hazards there are.

Homer do you or any of the others that have done this course know who does it near manchester, I would like to look into it and have even a little more confidence over putts and enjoy my game more. I alread putt well just crap at the rest of it, but confidence is always appreciated.

Glad your enjoying thr gsme more since you did the course.

For all the ne'sayers, fine but accpet there is more than one to skin a cat. And if the stats bother you that much do the course and see if you improve or stop hounding other for it is only your use of the instruction that can tell you if it works for you.
		
Click to expand...

styal golf club I did it at in 2011


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## Piece (Feb 8, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			A question for the aimpoint users...   How do measure the Slope/break  without using some kind of device?   I just watched a video on the subject but I'm still non the wiser.
		
Click to expand...

There's a good review on myGolfSpy.com that explains a lot. 

The bottom line is that you use your feet to find a transition point (no break line) and this takes practise to nail down. 

Once you know the distance from hole, estimated green pace and the putt angle from the transition point, you find the right chart figure to give you the Aimpoint/amount of break. It's up to you to aim at this point, trust it, and hit the right pace putt. If you can't get pace right and aim incorrectly, it's unlikely you'll make it!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			By standing up straight and allow gravity to dictate where your weight is in your feet. If it's flat then weight should be toe area which would be 1%. 2% will be about slightly further away from your toes, about toe ball joint, 3 is middle of foot until 4% will be on your heels. That's how you assess slope.
		
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I play on a links course where some of the greens are quite lumpy, how does it work then? You'd end up pacing out quite a few places on the green to assess all the different slopes. And what about multi tiered greens with varying slopes?


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## richart (Feb 8, 2014)

Piece said:



			There's a good review on myGolfSpy.com that explains a lot. 

The bottom line is that you use your feet to find a transition point (no break line) and this takes practise to nail down. 

Once you know the distance from hole, estimated green pace and the putt angle from the transition point, you find the right chart figure to give you the Aimpoint/amount of break. It's up to you to aim at this point, trust it, and hit the right pace putt. If you can't get pace right and aim incorrectly, it's unlikely you'll make it! 

Click to expand...

Surely you must be either walking all over your own line, or at least one of your playing partners. I don't understand the idea of using your feet. I also don't understand how it doesn't slow down play.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			OK...help me out here please.

My ball is 18ft from the hole. How do I work out the line from here? Do I have to guess the stimp speed? How do I work out what the slope is from your chart? It's been pointed out that the greens are not mapped so what calculation is used?

I'm not trying to disparage the method, just curious as to how it all works.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, a green slopes back to front and is the same %age of slope say 3% for simplicity. the hole is in the middle, you've hit you ball pin high right 18ft away. You will approach ur ball on the low side of the green and mid way between ball n hole. As the slope in this case the same thruout the green you will stand facing straight uphill and your feet will be level this is the zero line or straight line putt. We said that the slope is 3 which you'll confirm by where your weight is on your feet, you have now got a 90* putt and is marked on your chart. Chart has 5, 10, 15, 20ft sections with numbers in each section look at the corresponding number ie 18ft I'd use 20 on the chart and that number gives you the amount of break to the right of the hole. 

You can gauge the stimp by a simple 5ft 90* putt by using the chart. It sounds complex and at first it is but you do get the idea really quick when you use it.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Ok, a green slopes back to front and is the same %age of slope say 3% for simplicity. the hole is in the middle, you've hit you ball pin high right 18ft away. You will approach ur ball on the low side of the green and mid way between ball n hole. As the slope in this case the same thruout the green you will stand facing straight uphill and your feet will be level this is the zero line or straight line putt. We said that the slope is 3 which you'll confirm by where your weight is on your feet, you have now got a 90* putt and is marked on your chart. Chart has 5, 10, 15, 20ft sections with numbers in each section look at the corresponding number ie 18ft I'd use 20 on the chart and that number gives you the amount of break to the right of the hole. 

You can gauge the stimp by a simple 5ft 90* putt by using the chart. It sounds complex and at first it is but you do get the idea really quick when you use it.
		
Click to expand...


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I play on a links course where some of the greens are quite lumpy, how does it work then? You'd end up pacing out quite a few places on the green to assess all the different slopes. And what about multi tiered greens with varying slopes?
		
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Lmao, yeah you can do multiple breaks with it and there is a way of calculating it but if you can't grasp a single planer green read then I ain't going to try and explain that.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:





Click to expand...

Dont worry about it your too good a player to bother with it.....


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

He (mod edit) asked, so I'm explaining......... The best I can.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			He mod edit asked, so I'm explaining......... The best I can.
		
Click to expand...

 .


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Ok, a green slopes back to front and is the same %age of slope say 3% for simplicity. the hole is in the middle, you've hit you ball pin high right 18ft away. You will approach ur ball on the low side of the green and mid way between ball n hole. As the slope in this case the same thruout the green you will stand facing straight uphill and your feet will be level this is the zero line or straight line putt. We said that the slope is 3 which you'll confirm by where your weight is on your feet, you have now got a 90* putt and is marked on your chart. Chart has 5, 10, 15, 20ft sections with numbers in each section look at the corresponding number ie 18ft I'd use 20 on the chart and that number gives you the amount of break to the right of the hole. 

You can gauge the stimp by a simple 5ft 90* putt by using the chart. It sounds complex and at first it is but you do get the idea really quick when you use it.
		
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The answer to that scenario is this. 

Stimp        Aim
7        21" right
8.       25"
9.       29"
10.     34"
11.     39"
12      44"


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			The answer to that scenario is this. 

Stimp        Aim
7              21" right
8.             25"
9.             29"
10.           34"
11.           39"
12            44"
		
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Are these reads for dying the ball into the hole?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			Ok, a green slopes back to front and is the same %age of slope say 3% for simplicity. the hole is in the middle, you've hit you ball pin high right 18ft away. You will approach ur ball on the low side of the green and mid way between ball n hole. As the slope in this case the same thruout the green you will stand facing straight uphill and your feet will be level this is the zero line or straight line putt. We said that the slope is 3 which you'll confirm by where your weight is on your feet, you have now got a 90* putt and is marked on your chart. Chart has 5, 10, 15, 20ft sections with numbers in each section look at the corresponding number ie 18ft I'd use 20 on the chart and that number gives you the amount of break to the right of the hole. 

You can gauge the stimp by a simple 5ft 90* putt by using the chart. It sounds complex and at first it is but you do get the idea really quick when you use it.
		
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Thanks for explaining that, does sound complex but like you say, I'm sure you get used to it.

Bottom line though is that it still seems to come down to human judgement so I'm struggling to see any advantage over conventional methods.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Are these reads for dying the ball into the hole?
		
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ideally aim to roll ball past hole by 6" as the last six inches as ball speed reduces will be affected by any green impurities more.


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Thanks for explaining that, does sound complex but like you say, I'm sure you get used to it.

Bottom line though is that it still seems to come down to human judgement so I'm struggling to see any advantage over conventional methods.
		
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What, hit and hope?


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## harpo_72 (Feb 8, 2014)

Sounds like it basically gives people confidence, by offering them a tool to overcome their inability to imagine how a ball rolls .. I don't have a problem with it as I use the jack Nicklaus method of chip and running, which is another mechanical solution to a feel problem.


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## Robobum (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			ideally aim to roll ball past hole by 6" as the last six inches as ball speed reduces will be affected by any green impurities more.
		
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Thanks, you are the only user to at least try to explain it! :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

Jaymosafehands said:



			What, hit and hope? 

Click to expand...

No certainly not. Reading a green is a skill just like any other part of the game. Maybe you turned to the vector method because you used to hit and hope?


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Thanks for explaining that, does sound complex but like you say, I'm sure you get used to it.

Bottom line though is that it still seems to come down to human judgement so I'm struggling to see any advantage over conventional methods.
		
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I said in an earlier post if you trust the system and play at different courses that are faster then your used to as you can see by the example above the distance between stimp 9 and 12 is huge. That's where the advantage comes into it. We would all struggle on a 12 stimp as we are not used to it. You being on a links course I would suspect your greens will be quick anyway


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			I said in an earlier post if you trust the system and play at different courses that are faster then your used to as you can see by the example above the distance between stimp 9 and 12 is huge. That's where the advantage comes into it. We would all struggle on a 12 stimp as we are not used to it. You being on a links course I would suspect your greens will be quick anyway
		
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Generally yeah, pretty quick. I wouldn't have a clue what my greens stimp at and it's probably irrelevant when you factor in slopes and wind.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Thanks, you are the only user to at least try to explain it! :thup:
		
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Not really Homer has tried but it is hard when you have people who discount it with no knowledge. Taylor Made said that the white heads helped with better alignment to the golf ball. True or tosh? I don't know but not passing judgement on it as I've never tried or wanted to try it as I personally didn't like them....... And I've got no knowledge to if it's true.


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## 3565 (Feb 8, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Generally yeah, pretty quick. I wouldn't have a clue what my greens stimp at and it's probably irrelevant when you factor in slopes and wind.
		
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I had a putt today and used the express read (don't ask) aimed it 3ft right down the slope right to left, and the wind blew it straight... It can't account for that but at least the ball ended up where the initial read was just that it bypassed the slope....


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## Robobum (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Not really Homer has tried but it is hard when you have people who discount it with no knowledge. Taylor Made said that the white heads helped with better alignment to the golf ball. True or tosh? I don't know but not passing judgement on it as I've never tried or wanted to try it as I personally didn't like them....... And I've got no knowledge to if it's true.
		
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Must have got lost in the bleating


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## garyinderry (Feb 9, 2014)

there is no one read!   it depends on how hard you hit it.   for a big breaking putt, there will be a window where you can put the ball and it will end up the hole depending on pace!   


:thup:   simples


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## stevie_r (Feb 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I wouldn't have a clue what my greens stimp at and it's probably irrelevant when you factor in slopes and wind.
		
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Me neither, 18 different stimp readings would be a pain in the butt to remember during a round tbh


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			there is no one read!   it depends on how hard you hit it.   for a big breaking putt, there will be a window where you can put the ball and it will end up the hole depending on pace!
		
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3565 said:



			ideally aim to roll ball past hole by 6" as the last six inches as ball speed reduces will be affected by any green impurities more.
		
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There's normally only 1 line that gives this though!

No need to remember different stimps. Check the practice green and make your estimate. If different on 1st, then adjust. This process is exactly the same as 'traditional' method. It's the determining how much break to allow that's different.

You guys seem to be putting up barriers that don't exist - the British 'can't do' cf rest of world's 'can do'! Though factoring the wind is definitely a consideration. There may be a method (adjusting the % slope?) but that's a detail too deep for my limited knowledge of it.


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## garyinderry (Feb 9, 2014)

there is no "cant do" in my post.   it talks about an area to put the ball and rely on pace to find the target.     its arguably less limiting than a one line putt.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

No idea what you mean by that!

Remember it's greatest value/benefit is for medium length putts 8-20 footers, or longer. Sure there are several ways to sink the 3-footers, including taking all the break out of it!


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## Robobum (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			......

You guys seem to be putting up barriers that don't exist - the British 'can't do' cf rest of world's 'can do'! .
		
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That's a whole new level of tosh - even by your usual standards. :thup:


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## SammmeBee (Feb 9, 2014)

I am surprised the majority of courses around here have big enough breaks to make it worth using and ever get quicker than 8/9 on the stimp to worry about it.

How do you apply the concept if you have the same breaking putt that is uphill or downhill and how do you apply to double breaking putts?


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## richart (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			I had a putt today and used the express read (don't ask) aimed it 3ft right down the slope right to left, and the wind blew it straight... It can't account for that but at least the ball ended up where the initial read was just that it bypassed the slope.... 

Click to expand...

 So you can still use skill in reading a putt and allowing for wind. To me there are too many variable factors to take into account.

When I have played texas scrambles I have watched partners hit the same putt and it has broken differently. Surely a putt with slight side spin will react differently to one hit absolutely square.

Personally I try and hit every putt straight, aim at a point level with the hole behind the peak of the break. Is that too simple ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

richart said:



			So you can still use skill in reading a putt and allowing for wind. To me there are too many variable factors to take into account.

When I have played texas scrambles I have watched partners hit the same putt and it has broken differently. Surely a putt with slight side spin will react differently to one hit absolutely square.

Personally I try and hit every putt straight, aim at a point level with the hole behind the peak of the break. Is that too simple ?
		
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Keeping it simple seems a better method IMO


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 9, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I think I've got it, it makes the user feel more confident.

That's just brilliant - 40 confident putts!

The Aimpoint hashtag is/ was *#makeeverything* - that must mean someone keeps count.
		
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Well if they make everything then that's only 18 putts a round, surelyâ€¦...


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

richart said:



			So you can still use skill in reading a putt and allowing for wind. To me there are too many variable factors to take into account.

When I have played texas scrambles I have watched partners hit the same putt and it has broken differently. Surely a putt with slight side spin will react differently to one hit absolutely square.

Personally I try and hit every putt straight, aim at a point level with the hole behind the peak of the break. Is that too simple ?
		
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This is the point I wanted to make. 

Do you have to have a semi-solid, repeatable putting stroke before you take the course?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

richart said:



			So you can still use skill in reading a putt and allowing for wind. To me there are too many variable factors to take into account.

When I have played texas scrambles I have watched partners hit the same putt and it has broken differently. Surely a putt with slight side spin will react differently to one hit absolutely square.

Personally I try and hit every putt straight, aim at a point level with the hole behind the peak of the break. Is that too simple ?
		
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Aimpoint does not help with your putting stroke. You can read the line perfectly no matter how you do it but if you don't start the ball on your line and with speed you'll miss. This system allows you with certain parameters work out where your Aimpoint has to be. Simple as that. 

Example, your course, on a stimp of 9 if I have a 10ft left to right putt on a slope of 1% (relatively flat) I aim 3" left of the hole. If the slope is 4% (classed as severe) I aim 21" left. Now the same putt but on a stimp of 12 which for the uk is very quick on a slope of 4% how much further left do you think you need to aim? I know, I've done it and more importantly it works. Now whether I hole it or not that depends if I putt a good stroke, aimed right and the right speed plus all other factors outside of your control the golfing gods decide what happens to your ball.


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Gareth said:



			This is the point I wanted to make. 

Do you have to have a semi-solid, repeatable putting stroke before you take the course?
		
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seriously? Does that mean you can't take to the golf course if you've not got a semi solid repeatable swing?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Aimpoint does not help with your putting stroke. You can read the line perfectly no matter how you do it but if you don't start the ball on your line and with speed you'll miss. This system allows you with certain parameters work out where your Aimpoint has to be. Simple as that. 

Example, your course, on a stimp of 9 if I have a 10ft left to right putt on a slope of 1% (relatively flat) I aim 3" left of the hole. If the slope is 4% (classed as severe) I aim 21" left. Now the same putt but on a stimp of 12 which for the uk is very quick on a slope of 4% how much further left do you think you need to aim? I know, I've done it and more importantly it works. Now whether I hole it or not that depends if I putt a good stroke, aimed right and the right speed plus all other factors outside of your control the golfing gods decide what happens to your ball.
		
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What if it's left to right the right to left and then left to right again - do you need gage every single slope

I can see the pros doing it and walking up and down their line but a guy in a Saturday swindle ?! I can see that slowing everything up - especially if they got out some chart


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What if it's left to right the right to left and then left to right again - do you need gage every single slope

I can see the pros doing it and walking up and down their line but a guy in a Saturday swindle ?! I can see that slowing everything up - especially if they got out some chart
		
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Yes you can work it out. What's more important to you in your game? Going round in the least amount of strokes or the time it takes for you to get round? Which will win you comps and lower your hc?


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			seriously? Does that mean you can't take to the golf course if you've not got a semi solid repeatable swing?
		
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The point I'm making, or trying to make, what's the point in going to what is, essentially, a green reading course if you can't put what you're taught into practice because your stroke isn't the same from one putt to the next. Yes I know that could be said for most amateurs, but I'm sure you'll agree, some amateurs putt Pretty well.

It's all well and good being able to step onto the green, use your Aimpoint knowledge to read the green and find the correct line, only for you to push the ball 3ft off line and miss the hole by a bus ride.

IMHO, if you have a repeatable stroke you will get the best out of a course like Aimpoint, where as if your putting looks like, push, pull, push, straight you won't get the best out of it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Yes you can work it out. What's more important to you in your game? Going round in the least amount of strokes or the time it takes for you to get round? Which will win you comps and lower your hc?
		
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What's more important to me is not getting held up on every single hole disturbing any natural flow in the game - that would ruin my game and I know would ruin the others who were stuck behind whilst the amateur golfer studies a chart and walks up and down each putt getting some feel under his feet 

A natural flow in my game helps my score and my handicap


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Gareth said:



			The point I'm making, or trying to make, what's the point in going to what is, essentially, a green reading course if you can't put what you're taught into practice because your stroke isn't the same from one putt to the next. Yes I know that could be said for most amateurs, but I'm sure you'll agree, some amateurs putt Pretty well.

It's all well and good being able to step onto the green, use your Aimpoint knowledge to read the green and find the correct line, only for you to push the ball 3ft off line and miss the hole by a bus ride.

IMHO, if you have a repeatable stroke you will get the best out of a course like Aimpoint, where as if your putting looks like, push, pull, push, straight you won't get the best out of it.
		
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Ok good point and yes like I've said no matter what system, conventional, Aimpoint or Vector, if your stroke is different every time, then go see your pro cos you got problems and practise. I mentioned a 10ft putt here is a video of what I mean by a 21" break. Here he is demonstrating what happens and when starting off with Aimpoint is how you do it but with time n practise you get the reads quicker. So bear that in mind before castigating slow play......


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What's more important to me is not getting held up on every single hole disturbing any natural flow in the game - that would ruin my game and I know would ruin the others who were stuck behind whilst the amateur golfer studies a chart and walks up and down each putt getting some feel under his feet 

A natural flow in my game helps my score and my handicap
		
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You got a DMD have you not? When they came into competition play they said it would slow things down but reality says it's quickened it up? So why do you think Aimpoint will slow it down. Through Aimpoint the express read, which is not as accurate or precise as the chart is equivalent to your conventional method but is quicker, and you don't have to step back five paces crouch down peer thru your hands around your baseball cap and trying to read where you need to aim at.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			You got a DMD have you not? When they came into competition play they said it would slow things down but reality says it's quickened it up? So why do you think Aimpoint will slow it down. Through Aimpoint the express read, which is not as accurate or precise as the chart is equivalent to your conventional method but is quicker, and you don't have to step back five paces crouch down peer thru your hands around your baseball cap and trying to read where you need to aim at.
		
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My distances are always measured when the other players are taking their shot 

So once they have played I'm ready and take my shot. 

From reading this thread it would appear that aimpoint would take time on each green


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My distances are always measured when the other players are taking their shot 

So once they have played I'm ready and take my shot. 

From reading this thread it would appear that aimpoint would take time on each green
		
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With both of the putting methods commented on you can start reading great as soon as you walk up to it, exactly as a 'feel' putter would. I think people are complicating things / making it sound like it takes minutes - it takes me 30 seconds max, as I don't need the chart ( I know the numbers now) and having seen others play who use it I wouldn't say they are any slower than me. 

It's basically help, which we all need cos if we didn't we'd be on Sky Sports 4 right now.....


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Ok good point and yes like I've said no matter what system, conventional, Aimpoint or Vector, if your stroke is different every time, then go see your pro cos you got problems and practise. I mentioned a 10ft putt here is a video of what I mean by a 21" break. Here he is demonstrating what happens and when starting off with Aimpoint is how you do it but with time n practise you get the reads quicker. So bear that in mind before castigating slow play......
		
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Owed thee osses (Hold your horses) as they say in Stoke. 

I never said anything about slow play, more the validity of the system when a non repetitive stroke is introduced.

A further point you could clarify for me. 

Getting the line is only part of the recipe for a good putt. Does Aimpoint make any provision for, what I consider the most important part of the putt, the pace of the shot.

As per my original point. It's all well having the line, but that line must be governed by the pace with which the putt must be hit. Get the pace wrong and the line become irrelevant?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

Jaymosafehands said:



			With both of the putting methods commented on you can start reading great as soon as you walk up to it, exactly as a 'feel' putter would. I think people are complicating things / making it sound like it takes minutes - it takes me 30 seconds max, as I don't need the chart ( I know the numbers now) and having seen others play who use it I wouldn't say they are any slower than me. 

It's basically help, which we all need cos if we didn't we'd be on Sky Sports 4 right now.....
		
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On average off the top of your head how many putts per round do you reckon you have ?

What about pace ?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My distances are always measured when the other players are taking their shot 

So once they have played I'm ready and take my shot. 

From reading this thread it would appear that aimpoint would take time on each green
		
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yeah and so can Aimpoint once you know what your doing which to be fair you don't know enough about it. It takes no longer then what you do. I've used it and have had no complaints from any one bout how long/short I take. All they see is I'm making more putts, which essentially what it is all about surely? Drain a 20 ft putt straight off or 2 putt from 20ft, I know which one I'd get more pleasure with!!! Stick to your conventional method and at times I revert to it I won't deny that but I've got something else I can use that like Homer says works.


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Jaymosafehands said:



			With both of the putting methods commented on you can start reading great as soon as you walk up to it, exactly as a 'feel' putter would. I think people are complicating things / making it sound like it takes minutes - it takes me 30 seconds max, as I don't need the chart ( I know the numbers now) and having seen others play who use it I wouldn't say they are any slower than me. 

It's basically help, which we all need cos if we didn't we'd be on Sky Sports 4 right now.....
		
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+1 there


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			yeah and so can Aimpoint once you know what your doing which to be fair you don't know enough about it. It takes no longer then what you do. I've used it and have had no complaints from any one bout how long/short I take. All they see is I'm making more putts, which essentially what it is all about surely? Drain a 20 ft putt straight off or 2 putt from 20ft, I know which one I'd get more pleasure with!!! Stick to your conventional method and at times I revert to it I won't deny that but I've got something else I can use that like Homer says works.
		
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Why do you revert to the traditional method if aimpoint "works" as you suggest ? 

And how many pros use it ?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			On average off the top of your head how many putts per round do you reckon you have ?

What about pace ?
		
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at the moment ave is 1.75 putts per per hole, 1.88 GIR. 
Pace. Ok can I ask how you find your pace of the greens? How do you like to see the ball go towards the hole, at pace so if you miss it goes 3ft past, die at hole, a foot past, 6" what?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

I find the pace from the putting green and the first green I reach - I have no preference to how the ball goes into the hole - I take each putt how it's comes, sometimes they die in , sometimes the go in at pace

Your stats are up there with the pros - in fact better than a lot of pros

Edit : 1.88 GIR ?! Greens in reg ?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you revert to the traditional method if aimpoint "works" as you suggest ? 

And how many pros use it ?
		
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Anything less the 5 ft. As Aimpoint works for 5ft and above, so the short distance is what it is a short putt so im not going to do the penguin shuffle as some say on here. 

Pros using it, on the LPGA there are quite a few Stacey Lewis/Keating, on the men's circuit Fowler has been seen with a chart, Brain Gay the other week was seen using express read and shot 8 under in one round. Let's face it you won't see Pros being a penguin will you, they have mapped out greens of each of the events showing the slope direction and amount, I know that some of the caddies use Aimpoint, but with all the info they have all they need to know once on the green is distance, and angle, look at the charts they have give him the number and off he goes.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

richart said:



			Personally I try and hit every putt straight, aim at a point level with the hole behind the peak of the break. Is that too simple ?
		
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That's pretty much what Aimpoint does. Though 'peak of the break' needs to be defined. If you aim at that 'peak of the break'  that's on the line of the putt, then thall ball will miss the hole - on the low side if it's a single-breaker - as you are not allowing enough break. Aimpoint calc-ed putt would travel through that 'peak of the break'  point on its way to the hole. 

The only thing not simple about it is the method of working out what that line actually is, which devotees say is quick and easy after a little practice. And, I guess (!), Express is a simplified method of working that out - or is it 'without pressing down'?!.

Btw. Why/how would you hit a putt that wasn't 'straight'? Do you mean 'along the intended line' as opposed to a Push or Pull? 


Gareth said:



			Do you have to have a semi-solid, repeatable putting stroke before you take the course?
		
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No more or less than using any other method. Why would you think that requirement was any different? 


Liverpoolphil said:



			Keeping it simple seems a better method IMO
		
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Fair enough. I believe that was their approach too. But a 'rigorous' method often involves a certain amount of complexity. If it's 'looks too complicated' (or 'looks like too much faffing about') for you, then that's a valid reason. But if keeping it simple means you miss putts that you might have made.....?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I find the pace from the putting green and the first green I reach - I have no preference to how the ball goes into the hole - I take each putt how it's comes, sometimes they die in , sometimes the go in at pace

Your stats are up there with the pros - in fact better than a lot of pros

Edit : 1.88 GIR ?! Greens in reg ?
		
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yes Greens in reg. I've had rounds where they are above 2.22 but that's not Aimpoints fault, it's mine as I've not putted well, but I've had a couple rounds of 1.5 and one at 1.43, but I might of got u&d well that day, I can't remember.


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Forgot to post this with comment #322 so read that then watch what he does. Just found this and mirrors my example I mentioned earlier bout a 10ft putt. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fj6R-_wfKdo


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			yes Greens in reg. I've had rounds where they are above 2.22 but that's not Aimpoints fault, it's mine as I've not putted well, but I've had a couple rounds of 1.5 and one at 1.43, but I might of got u&d well that day, I can't remember.
		
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Aren't GIR measured in percentage ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Anything less the 5 ft. As Aimpoint works for 5ft and above, so the short distance is what it is a short putt so im not going to do the penguin shuffle as some say on here. 

Pros using it, on the LPGA there are quite a few Stacey Lewis/Keating, on the men's circuit Fowler has been seen with a chart, Brain Gay the other week was seen using express read and shot 8 under in one round. Let's face it you won't see Pros being a penguin will you, they have mapped out greens of each of the events showing the slope direction and amount, I know that some of the caddies use Aimpoint, but with all the info they have all they need to know once on the green is distance, and angle, look at the charts they have give him the number and off he goes.
		
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But you can get a lot of break in 5ft putts ? But the method won't work for those type of putts ? 

For a method you suggest "works" it doesn't appear to be used very much ?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's pretty much what Aimpoint does. Though 'peak of the break' needs to be defined. If you aim at that 'peak of the break'  that's on the line of the putt, then thall ball will miss the hole - on the low side if it's a single-breaker - as you are not allowing enough break. Aimpoint calc-ed putt would travel through that 'peak of the break'  point on its way to the hole. 

The only thing not simple about it is the method of working out what that line actually is, which devotees say is quick and easy after a little practice. And, I guess (!), Express is a simplified method of working that out - or is it 'without pressing down'?!.

Btw. Why/how would you hit a putt that wasn't 'straight'? Do you mean 'along the intended line' as opposed to a Push or Pull? 

No more or less than using any other method. Why would you think that requirement was any different? 

Fair enough. I believe that was their approach too. But a 'rigorous' method often involves a certain amount of complexity
		
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Well put with your first statement, most (not all) amateurs read a break and say that's where it starts to go and aim for that point. Unfortunately gravity takes over and like you said it breaks quicker and miss on the low side, the only way to make that putt is to hit it harder, which then reduces the size of the hole by some considerable amount unless you do a Jacklin!!!


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Aren't GIR measured in percentage ?
		
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I read that as 1.88 putts average where Green hit in Reg.


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But you can get a lot of break in 5ft putts ? But the method won't work for those type of putts ? 

For a method you suggest "works" it doesn't appear to be used very much ?
		
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Ok, yes your right, but when under 5ft I'm confident to hole it, but if you want here's an extreme example. Augusta is known to be 13 on stimp, and slopey, a 3ft left to right putt on a slope 4% at 90* (meaning putt is at 9 o'clock to the centre of clock face) aim 8" left of the hole. 
Think your clutching at straws with your last comment but that's your opinion. Do you want a reading from a foot from the hole? Can give you one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I read that as 1.88 putts average where Green hit in Reg.
		
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Which are figures you expect to see from tour pros


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## SammmeBee (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which are figures you expect to see from tour pros
		
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But they hit 3 times as many greens......


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Ok, yes your right, but when under 5ft I'm confident to hole it, but if you want here's an extreme example. Augusta is known to be 13 on stimp, and slopey, a 3ft left to right putt on a slope 4% at 90* (meaning putt is at 9 o'clock to the centre of clock face) aim 8" left of the hole. 
Think your clutching at straws with your last comment but that's your opinion. Do you want a reading from a foot from the hole? Can give you one.
		
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Under 5ft is the critical area for holing putts IMO 

And why is it clutching at straws ?

You have said the method works - so why if it works don't we see more people using it ?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I read that as 1.88 putts average where Green hit in Reg.
		
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exactly right, I'm hitting 60.4% GIR, And taking 1.88 putts


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

SammmeBee said:



			But they hit 3 times as many greens......
		
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Most of the stats on the PGA tour are taken from 20 rounds upwards


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which are figures you expect to see from tour pros
		
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No surprise! Putting is the one area where it's possible for Ams (at any level) to be 'competitive' with Pros. Though perhaps not on the Greens they play on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			exactly right, I'm hitting 60.4% GIR, And taking 1.88 putts
		
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Better stats than Harrington - good golf


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			exactly right, I'm hitting 60.4% GIR, And taking 1.88 putts
		
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Can I ask. What is your current handicap?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Under 5ft is the critical area for holing putts IMO 

And why is it clutching at straws ?

You have said the method works - so why if it works don't we see more people using it ?
		
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well I take that as either you knock your irons to within the 5ft range all the time, or your not good at lag putting??? I did some stats couple yrs ago with my birdie opportunities only in footage to the pin, I had an average of around 12ft, so it gave me a distance to practise more from.that was based on putts less then 25ft away to give me that average, if I included all birdie putts no matter what the distance on the green my average went up to 18ft.  

Its like most most things it's peoples sceptic nature and disregard to something new I suppose.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			well I take that as either you knock your irons to within the 5ft range all the time, or your not good at lag putting??? I did some stats couple yrs ago with my birdie opportunities only in footage to the pin, I had an average of around 12ft, so it gave me a distance to practise more from.that was based on putts less then 25ft away to give me that average, if I included all birdie putts no matter what the distance on the green my average went up to 18ft.  

Its like most most things it's peoples sceptic nature and disregard to something new I suppose.
		
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I take that as meaning I'm just a club amateur golfer who doesn't always hit it close to the pin or even on the green 

And yes I am suspect of a method that not many use - to mean that means people ( majority ) don't find it works.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Can I ask. What is your current handicap?
		
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Think he says it was 3 but now it's 2


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Can I ask. What is your current handicap?
		
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I'd pick 2 +/- 1 with those numbers - assuming short game is about same level.

And that's why short game is so important!


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## One Planer (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I'd pick 2 +/- 1 with those numbers.
		
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I would agree. Definitely low cat 1.


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Better stats than Harrington - good golf
		
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Lets get real here, they play courses that are 1000 yds longer then we do and are 11/12 on stimp, harder courses thicker rough etc etc. I've got golfshot app which I input and I'm brutally honest when inputting data, am I better then him? I wish I was else I'd not be on here explaining Aimpoint, and be on European tour. 

I've gotten as low as 1.6, but in past year got back to 2.5, I play a lot of scratch 36 hole golf all over so it's not just from my home course, and changed coaches and swing improvements.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Lets get real here, they play courses that are 1000 yds longer then we do and are 11/12 on stimp, harder courses thicker rough etc etc. I've got golfshot app which I input and I'm brutally honest when inputting data, am I better then him? I wish I was else I'd not be on here explaining Aimpoint, and be on European tour. 

I've gotten as low as 1.6, but in past year got back to 2.5, I play a lot of scratch 36 hole golf all over so it's not just from my home course, and changed coaches and swing improvements.
		
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It was a compliment on some very good golf :thup:


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And yes I am suspect of a method that not many use - to mean that means people ( majority ) don't find it works.
		
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Or haven't tried it - for various possible reasons!

Perhaps a better way of measuring the (somewhat negative, but valid nevertheless) thing you are looking at is 'How many who have tried it revert to another/old method?'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Or haven't tried it - for various possible reasons!

Perhaps a better way of measuring the (somewhat negative, but valid nevertheless) thing you are looking at is 'How many who have tried it revert to another/old method?'.
		
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So why wouldnt someone try something that people are claiming - works

Golfers are always looking for an advantage - so why not try this ?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I take that as meaning I'm just a club amateur golfer who doesn't always hit it close to the pin or even on the green 

And yes I am suspect of a method that not many use - to mean that means people ( majority ) don't find it works.
		
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no, your in the minority of golfers 2% in cat 1. You can play, you say that 5ft and in is the most important distance, it is if you've got a birdie putt from within that, but it's not often we hit it in that close. Well I don't can't say if you do or not.  

That's fine, if you feel like that then ok. Like someone says there's more ways to skin a cat,  but the main thing tbh is I'm open minded to new methods techniques equipment and I try them out, if it works then great if not move on.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 9, 2014)

Another three pages added and still the same faces bleating away. You don't like Aimpoint. Move on. Why hammer 3565 to death with inane questions as well, which were more or less the same ones you asked me. He has provided a much ore detailed explanation but still not good enough. Bottom line is it doesn't slow play. Ask those that played at Woburn or H4H last year. I can get my read while others are marking balls, playing greenside bunker shots and raking after and I can get the read from a foot or so further away IF I'm going to be on someones line. Unless you have inclination to try it, don't knock it. But there again some people are happy to hide behind a keyboard and make brave comments but don't have to heart to try something else

Mods - I think this is now going around in circles and those that don't accept or understand are making the same points. Both 3565 and I have explained it and still getting the same comments disregarding or knocking. Is there any mileage keeping it open?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a compliment on some very good golf :thup:
		
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It was taken that way.  
I was tryin to be realistic.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why wouldnt someone try something that people are claiming - works

Golfers are always looking for an advantage - so why not try this ?
		
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Good point! Why haven't you?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another three pages added and still the same faces bleating away. You don't like Aimpoint. Move on. Why hammer 3565 to death with inane questions as well, which were more or less the same ones you asked me. He has provided a much ore detailed explanation but still not good enough. Bottom line is it doesn't slow play. Ask those that played at Woburn or H4H last year. I can get my read while others are marking balls, playing greenside bunker shots and raking after and I can get the read from a foot or so further away IF I'm going to be on someones line. Unless you have inclination to try it, don't knock it. But there again some people are happy to hide behind a keyboard and make brave comments but don't have to heart to try something else

Mods - I think this is now going around in circles and those that don't accept or understand are making the same points. Both 3565 and I have explained it and still getting the same comments disregarding or knocking. Is there any mileage keeping it open?
		
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Just because you are fed up with this thread doesn't mean everyone else is, I'd like it to remain open.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Just because you are fed up with this thread doesn't mean everyone else is, I'd like it to remain open.
		
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I'm happy to keep it going but was just asking the question. Just the same people asking the same questions and making the same "show me the proof" comments all the time. Three new pages and nothing interesting or different added. Just seems to be circulous


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			no, your in the minority of golfers 2% in cat 1. You can play, you say that 5ft and in is the most important distance, it is if you've got a birdie putt from within that, but it's not often we hit it in that close. Well I don't can't say if you do or not.  

That's fine, if you feel like that then ok. Like someone says there's more ways to skin a cat,  but the main thing tbh is I'm open minded to new methods techniques equipment and I try them out, if it works then great if not move on.
		
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It's been a good discussion - nice and open and you have certainly given food for thought and not just dismissed any questions

Golfers strive for the missing link to suddenly propel themselves into being a good golfer and will try anything 

I'm certainly going to investigate during pro Am's etc the aimpoint method :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another three pages added and still the same faces bleating away. You don't like Aimpoint. Move on. Why hammer 3565 to death with inane questions as well, which were more or less the same ones you asked me. He has provided a much ore detailed explanation but still not good enough. Bottom line is it doesn't slow play. Ask those that played at Woburn or H4H last year. I can get my read while others are marking balls, playing greenside bunker shots and raking after and I can get the read from a foot or so further away IF I'm going to be on someones line. Unless you have inclination to try it, don't knock it. But there again some people are happy to hide behind a keyboard and make brave comments but don't have to heart to try something else

Mods - I think this is now going around in circles and those that don't accept or understand are making the same points. Both 3565 and I have explained it and still getting the same comments disregarding or knocking. Is there any mileage keeping it open?
		
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I do believe the only person who currently has a problem with the thread is yourself 

So I would have thought the easiest solution for you would be to avoid it and not comment on it 

Maybe some people have a constant need to change and try something because it hides them knowing that they have reached their level 

Also it's prob not nice to accuse people of not having the heart to try something different when I'm sure every single one of us has tried something different to try and improve ( they prob don't feel the need to let the world know in a blog though )


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Good point! Why haven't you?
		
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Never heard of it until the last couple of days :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			It was taken that way.  
I was tryin to be realistic.
		
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No worries mate 

Where do you play your golf ?


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## fundy (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			well I take that as either you knock your irons to within the 5ft range all the time, or your not good at lag putting??? I did some stats couple yrs ago with my birdie opportunities only in footage to the pin, I had an average of around 12ft, so it gave me a distance to practise more from.that was based on putts less then 25ft away to give me that average, if I included all birdie putts no matter what the distance on the green my average went up to 18ft.  

Its like most most things it's peoples sceptic nature and disregard to something new I suppose.
		
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Interesting to read your views 3565, and good to see you have found something that clearly works well for you.

Quick question as to how you got to deciding 12 ft was the important distance for you. If Im reading right you have taken the average length of birdie putts under 25ft and come to 12 ft. I dont understand a) why you would use an average (surely a median would be better here) albeit I do understand why you have excluded the over 25ft ones and b) why do you only consider birdies putts - surely all putts count the same?

I did a relatively similar exercise a while back and came to a range between 6 and 10 ft as critical to me (highlights a relatively poor short game) and the fact that I hole out very well inside 6ft. Funnily whilst streaky at times I tend to hole more than my share from 10-25ft but the days where I feel I havent scored well its that 6-10ft area where I feel costs me dearly  (I have days where I cant miss but other days where I may miss 5 or 6 of these in a round). You could argue that the issue is my short game in leaving too many of this distance.

As I say, not a criticism just curious as to why you chose the parameters you did to get to 12ft


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's been a good discussion - nice and open and you have certainly given food for thought and not just dismissed any questions

Golfers strive for the missing link to suddenly propel themselves into being a good golfer and will try anything 

I'm certainly going to investigate during pro Am's etc the aimpoint method :thup:
		
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Theres plenty of you tube Aimpoint vids, I don't expect you to understand it all, but it's there. You learn the basics, it is regimented at start and yes, you doubt your calculations at the start of it but like new techniques takes time to in grain, then you get used to it and becomes second nature and becomes easier and you'll find the regimented way of aimpointing is not as much as thru experience you can visually see things that maybe you've never took into account before and I'm sure Homer will testify that my understanding of breaking putts and green reading has gone up from how I used to do it.. Best of both worlds??? Why not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Theres plenty of you tube Aimpoint vids, I don't expect you to understand it all, but it's there. You learn the basics, it is regimented at start and yes, you doubt your calculations at the start of it but like new techniques takes time to in grain, then you get used to it and becomes second nature and becomes easier and you'll find the regimented way of aimpointing is not as much as thru experience you can visually see things that maybe you've never took into account before and I'm sure Homer will testify that my understanding of breaking putts and green reading has gone up from how I used to do it.. Best of both worlds??? Why not.
		
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I guess I don't take my golf that serious to start thinking about regimented methods 

I'm natural type player - never had a lesson nor ever will , just see things and try them out on my own and see what works 

I have no idea what my swing looks like nor do I care because the ball appears to go where I want - I judge each putt on it's own merit and will putt differently every single time ( most amateurs will ) 

My putting never seems to be problem and I very rarely 3 putt and sink my fair share of birdies , I'm not the greatest reader of lines but I believe I get the pace of greens pretty well


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never heard of it until the last couple of days :thup:
		
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That's one of the valid ones then! 
Along with Cost, Availability, Suitability, Support and a couple of others.

Narrow-mindedness is not a valid one though - at least, not for me!



Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm not the greatest reader of lines but I believe I get the pace of greens pretty well
		
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Aimpoint/You could be well matched then! Certainly  better matched than to someone who can read Greens well, but not get hit the required Pace!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's one of the valid ones then! 
Along with Cost, Availability, Suitability, Support and a couple of others.

Narrow-mindedness is not a valid one though - at least, not for me!
		
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I'll always give something a try but only if I can see that it could make a difference - so far I haven't seen any that could possibly suggest it 

The views of 3565 are ones to open eyes and possibly look into further

Got a round next week with a pro who did some putting lessons with Els and Singh last year at the Open - going to speak to him about


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			Interesting to read your views 3565, and good to see you have found something that clearly works well for you.

Quick question as to how you got to deciding 12 ft was the important distance for you. If Im reading right you have taken the average length of birdie putts under 25ft and come to 12 ft. I dont understand a) why you would use an average (surely a median would be better here) albeit I do understand why you have excluded the over 25ft ones and b) why do you only consider birdies putts - surely all putts count the same?

I did a relatively similar exercise a while back and came to a range between 6 and 10 ft as critical to me (highlights a relatively poor short game) and the fact that I hole out very well inside 6ft. Funnily whilst streaky at times I tend to hole more than my share from 10-25ft but the days where I feel I havent scored well its that 6-10ft area where I feel costs me dearly  (I have days where I cant miss but other days where I may miss 5 or 6 of these in a round). You could argue that the issue is my short game in leaving too many of this distance.

As I say, not a criticism just curious as to why you chose the parameters you did to get to 12ft
		
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it was my ex coach who suggested it, so it's what I did. This game is the most complex of all I've tried, and you can get bogged down with all that's available to you, which can affect your game. I'm a believer in that the better your skill set is the more complexities you have to deal with, and your expectations become greater. But it's how you deal and process them factors to get the best out of yourself whether it's old school or new.


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## fundy (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			it was my ex coach who suggested it, so it's what I did. This game is the most complex of all I've tried, and you can get bogged down with all that's available to you, which can affect your game. I'm a believer in that the better your skill set is the more complexities you have to deal with, and your expectations become greater. But it's how you deal and process them factors to get the best out of yourself whether it's old school or new.
		
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Wow, thats possibly the most informed thing Ivge read on this forum over the years, sums up my recent failings perfectly


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			it was my ex coach who suggested it, so it's what I did. This game is the most complex of all I've tried, and you can get bogged down with all that's available to you, which can affect your game. I'm a believer in that the better your skill set is the more complexities you have to deal with, and your expectations become greater. But it's how you deal and process them factors to get the best out of yourself whether it's old school or new.
		
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Good post :thup:

I will never understand Harringtons desire to change when he had a game that was good enough to win the biggest trophies in the game 

It's why I also believe people should just go and hit the ball without thinking too much about swing changes etc


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess I don't take my golf that serious to start thinking about regimented methods 

I'm natural type player - never had a lesson nor ever will , just see things and try them out on my own and see what works 

I have no idea what my swing looks like nor do I care because the ball appears to go where I want - I judge each putt on it's own merit and will putt differently every single time ( most amateurs will ) 

My putting never seems to be problem and I very rarely 3 putt and sink my fair share of birdies , I'm not the greatest reader of lines but I believe I get the pace of greens pretty well
		
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Then I'm impressed with your hc n where you got to by your own means. I've played this game foe 35 yrs, but you plateau once you get to a certain standard. If you want to improve then you have to succumb, but if your happy to stay the way as you are then great. It depends what you want out of golf really. I want to play great courses in great scratch comps, like the Brabazon, Lytham trophy, but you need to be scratch or better. Each to their own no rights or wrongs.


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Good post :thup:

I will never understand Harringtons desire to change when he had a game that was good enough to win the biggest trophies in the game 

It's why I also believe people should just go and hit the ball without thinking too much about swing changes etc
		
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my opinion, and I know it's going off subject here, but will Tiger break Jacks record, my view is no. Why, he won a lot with Butch and I think if he stayed with him he would of passed it by now. Some Tiger fan will probably correct me here no doubt. But you live in a golfing Mecca if it's Liverpool and the northern order of merit is loaded with great comps n courses, which I hope entices you to play in. Come to n.e. Lincs we have 4 county run events for the better player compared to the 30 plus in Lancashire. I'm jealous.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Then I'm impressed with your hc n where you got to by your own means. I've played this game foe 35 yrs, but you plateau once you get to a certain standard. If you want to improve then you have to succumb, but if your happy to stay the way as you are then great. It depends what you want out of golf really. I want to play great courses in great scratch comps, like the Brabazon, Lytham trophy, but you need to be scratch or better. Each to their own no rights or wrongs.
		
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For me it appears playing regularly has improved my game - will be interesting to see how I get on this season.

Regularly playing to around par at the moment

Was thinking of playing scratch comps but I think it would be too serious then for me


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			my opinion, and I know it's going off subject here, but will Tiger break Jacks record, my view is no. Why, he won a lot with Butch and I think if he stayed with him he would of passed it by now. Some Tiger fan will probably correct me here no doubt. But you live in a golfing Mecca if it's Liverpool and the northern order of merit is loaded with great comps n courses, which I hope entices you to play in. Come to n.e. Lincs we have 4 county run events for the better player compared to the 30 plus in Lancashire. I'm jealous.
		
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I agree on your point about Woods - fully agree he won't win another 

I live down south now around Beds and Bucks 

I play in Pro Am's currently and enjoy that and like to see where my scratch score would be.

Going to play in Pairs comps on the Nike Tour thing and might play in the county champs


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## fundy (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me it appears playing regularly has improved my game - will be interesting to see how I get on this season.

Regularly playing to around par at the moment

Was thinking of playing scratch comps but I think it would be too serious then for me
		
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The over 35s ones tend to be great, bit pot luck on who you draw if in the open events Phil. That one at Ashridge not the worst place to start!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			The over 35s ones tend to be great, bit pot luck on who you draw if in the open events Phil. That one at Ashridge not the worst place to start!
		
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Yeah seen that and certainly thinking of entering - I just don't want the game to become to competitive for me and lose the enjoyment factor


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me it appears playing regularly has improved my game - will be interesting to see how I get on this season.

Regularly playing to around par at the moment

Was thinking of playing scratch comps but I think it would be too serious then for me
		
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how do you know till you try. I played in Birkdale goblet off 3hc in 2005 for Â£45 2 rounds!!!!!! But unfortunately not played it since cos there are an abundance of good players better then me who get in and I don't. It was only cos the Brabazon was on that same time that I got in. 

Old coach once said if hc's worked we'd all be shooting the same. Play better golf and that will take care of your hc.


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah seen that and certainly thinking of entering - I just don't want the game to become to competitive for me and lose the enjoyment factor
		
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Treat the scratch as a jolly day out, playing a quality course, with fellow good players, and play as you normally do. I understand your concerns bout getting serious but that down to you how you deal with it. 

Any one know if the OP to this has made his mind up bout this Aimpoint malarkey? ne:


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## richart (Feb 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Just because you are fed up with this thread doesn't mean everyone else is, I'd like it to remain open.
		
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 Same here. I am still trying to understand it. Many thanks to 3565 for being so patient. I always think if some one doesn't like a thread just leave it to those who do. It is not compulsary to post on every thread.


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## richart (Feb 9, 2014)

Perhaps 3565 would like to give a demonstration at North Hants on the H4H day ?


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## 3565 (Feb 9, 2014)

richart said:



			Perhaps 3565 would like to give a demonstration at North Hants on the H4H day ?
		
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Thanks for the invite but I can't due to work and other golf commitments. Hope it's a good day for you.


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## Jaymosafehands (Feb 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			On average off the top of your head how many putts per round do you reckon you have ?

What about pace ?
		
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The pace is to hit the hole - 12 inch past max. I'm sub 32 putts now, was 34+ two years ago


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## Slab (Feb 10, 2014)

Well I knew with near 400 posts in a few days it wasnâ€™t going to be a boring thread 

Iâ€™d never heard of it before, and much like explaining a bodyâ€™s movement during a swing, it seems that in text form, Aimpoint comes across as convoluted and intricate when perhaps we all do something like this on occasion itâ€™s just that someone decided to do the maths and note it on a chart

Who hasnâ€™t walked up/down/across a slope to try and get a read for the break and break-point simply by what they feel underfoot, this appears to be a system that adds some numbers &/or a rating to this practice

I donâ€™t think Iâ€™ll try it but not because of what itâ€™s trying to do, more because this kind of approach to golf is beyond me in the same way that a pro telling me to shift my weight from 50/50 to 60/40 is beyond me (what kind of machines are you guys that can ascertain 10% of your stance weight and adjust it consistently, sure I can adjust my weight but by 10%!!) 

Good luck to those that want to do aimpoint though ... EYG (whatever happened to that fad)


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## Stuey01 (Feb 10, 2014)

richart said:



			It is not compulsary to post on every thread.

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Wait a minute... What?!
Are you sure?


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## tallpaul (Feb 13, 2014)

I took the Aimpoint Express course today and was very happy with the content. To me it seems a very simple method and produced good results for every person there today. I'm looking forward to taking it out on the course and seeing how it works under pressure.


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## karlcole (Feb 13, 2014)

Hi mate is there some sort of website that shows you where and when the courses are running im very interested in this
cheers


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## the_coach (Feb 13, 2014)

karlcole said:



			Hi mate is there some sort of website that shows you where and when the courses are running im very interested in this
cheers
		
Click to expand...

http://www.aimpointgolf.com/clinics.asp


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## virtuocity (Feb 13, 2014)

http://www.aimpointgolf.com/clinics.asp

Whoops- beaten to the punch.


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## BTatHome (Feb 13, 2014)

Not all of them are shown on that map. I know that George Porter (North Hants golf club) is running an Express class on the 15th March.

I'm a little confused about the pricing structure though, as many of the Express classes seem to be advertised as Â£99 ... but I thought the Express class was closer to Â£50.


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## virtuocity (Feb 13, 2014)

I paid Â£40 but I know the midpoint and 2hr classes are around Â£90


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## 3565 (Feb 14, 2014)

tallpaul said:



			I took the Aimpoint Express course today and was very happy with the content. To me it seems a very simple method and produced good results for every person there today. I'm looking forward to taking it out on the course and seeing how it works under pressure.
		
Click to expand...

Im taking the advanced Aimpoint class in May. As I understand the Express read it's for reads that are across and 90* to the slope. Did he show how to use express read that's up or down slope?


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## tallpaul (Feb 14, 2014)

3565 said:



			Im taking the advanced Aimpoint class in May. As I understand the Express read it's for reads that are across and 90* to the slope. Did he show how to use express read that's up or down slope?
		
Click to expand...

Focus was across the slope but I believe it's applicable up or down. We discussed how to adjust the read for faster or slower, which you could apply up or down the slope and a straight putt is a straight putt. 

We were limited by the putts our practice green offers. I'm interested to try it on-course and see what works and what doesn't. He's arranging three more express classes at my club and I am free to attend as many as I like now I've paid.


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## 3565 (Feb 14, 2014)

tallpaul said:



			Focus was across the slope but I believe it's applicable up or down. We discussed how to adjust the read for faster or slower, which you could apply up or down the slope and a straight putt is a straight putt. 

We were limited by the putts our practice green offers. I'm interested to try it on-course and see what works and what doesn't. He's arranging three more express classes at my club and I am free to attend as many as I like now I've paid.
		
Click to expand...

Thats stats good cos once you start using it on course you'll get situations that may need clarifying and you can go back and ask the question. From using Aimpoint in past 2 yrs I've just applied some logic with the express read for reads that are not across the slope.


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## titleistho (Feb 14, 2014)

what a croc

ball rolls *down* a hill..... 

people are paying to get told this?


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2014)

titleistho said:



			what a croc

ball rolls *down* a hill..... 

people are paying to get told this?
		
Click to expand...

So you've never misread a putt?

And every putt you've hit that has got to the hole has gone in?


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## NWJocko (Feb 14, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So you've never misread a putt?

And every putt you've hit that has got to the hole has gone in?



Click to expand...

If Aimpoint guarantees that putts go in then I'll pay up now!!


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## User20205 (Feb 14, 2014)

titleistho said:



			what a croc

ball rolls *down* a hill..... 

people are paying to get told this?
		
Click to expand...

Don't go there!!! You'll get lynched. 

I'm with you :thup:

 part of it for me is the formulaic, paint by numbers approach to golf it encourages.

Magic beans :rofl:


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			If Aimpoint guarantees that putts go in then I'll pay up now!! 

Click to expand...

I think they'd be overwhelmed!

The point is 'Would you pay/What's it worth to (supposedly) increase the percentage that do'!

So how much would you pay for 50% more. Or even 5% nore.

No different from the reasoning associated with buying the latest model Driver, that 'gives you 10 extra yards and more fairways'!


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## User20205 (Feb 14, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So you've never misread a putt?

And every putt you've hit that has got to the hole has gone in?



Click to expand...

Ahh the rolley eyes!!
Are you telling me that fellas that use aimpoint never miss a putt?

Because that's the counterpoint to yours


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2014)

therod said:



			Ahh the rolley eyes!!
Are you telling me that fellas that use aimpoint never miss a putt?

Because that's the counterpoint to yours

Click to expand...

Absolute tosh! With logic like that, you deserve to get lynched!

That's as illogical as saying the 'without Aimpoint you will always miss'!


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## User20205 (Feb 14, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Absolute tosh! With logic like that, you deserve to get lynched!

That's as illogical as saying the 'without Aimpoint you will always miss'!
		
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 of course it is foxy....that's the point 

you basically said with aimpoint you can't misread a putt

as for lynching, there's not much chance of that, there's a high chance of being bored to death though. :thup:


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## 3565 (Feb 14, 2014)

Is it something in the air in Dorset!!! 
Aimpoint, thru a science and mathematical approach, helps you to pick the correct place to aim. After the ball leaves the club head then it's out of your control no matter what system you use. You say paint by numbers golf approach,  I bet you use DMDs? It's no different with Aimpoint!


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2014)

therod said:



			you basically said with aimpoint you can't misread a putt

Click to expand...

You do indeed post some drivel!  But I seem to remember you (proudly?) stated that anyway! 



therod said:



			Most of the stuff I post is nonsense,....
		
Click to expand...

From earlier in this very thread


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## User20205 (Feb 14, 2014)

3565 said:



			Is it something in the air in Dorset!!! 
Aimpoint, thru a science and mathematical approach, helps you to pick the correct place to aim. After the ball leaves the club head then it's out of your control no matter what system you use. You say paint by numbers golf approach,  I bet you use DMDs? It's no different with Aimpoint!
		
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just rain 

I have got a laser so maybe I'm a slight hypocrite, but my laser doesn't tell me where to aim and what club to take to compensate for slope etc. There is one that does that....and it's not allowed in comps 

I've no great objection to aimpoint, it's just the evangelical glee with which some embrace it...until the next fad

I don't want to pick on Homer...but I will He's always going through a swing change, he's using the linear method for his chipping, aimpoint for his putting, it's all bit contrived. 

It may be the best putting solution ever, but for me it's gets drowned out in the volume of other voices trying to re-invent the golfing wheel


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## User20205 (Feb 14, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You do indeed post some drivel!  But I seem to remember you (proudly?) stated that anyway! 

Click to expand...


did I say drivel or nonsense? I can't remember 

I'm in good company:thup:


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## 3565 (Feb 14, 2014)

therod said:



			just rain 

I have got a laser so maybe I'm a slight hypocrite, but my laser doesn't tell me where to aim and what club to take to compensate for slope etc. There is one that does that....and it's not allowed in comps 

I've no great objection to aimpoint, it's just the evangelical glee with which some embrace it...until the next fad

I don't want to pick on Homer...but I will He's always going through a swing change, he's using the linear method for his chipping, aimpoint for his putting, it's all bit contrived. 

It may be the best putting solution ever, but for me it's gets drowned out in the volume of other voices trying to re-invent the golfing wheel
		
Click to expand...

Thats fine and it's your opinion which your entitled to, but you have to give Homer credit for doing what he does to WANT to improve. Your right DMD's don't tell you where to aim, not as yet anyway, who knows where technology will take us to and I have both none and slope bushnells.. As far as Evangelical glee, isn't that the case with most things in golf, new 350yd driver, suck back 40ft wedge, etc etc. no doubt you've been there done that?


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2014)

therod said:



			did I say drivel or nonsense? I can't remember 

I'm in good company:thup:
		
Click to expand...

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&ei=KVb-UryLOqeBywO3g4CoAw#q=drivel



Btw. We actually agree! It's the evangelical, and generally uninformed, pooh-pooh-ing of it that I consider wrong. 

Not for you? Fine. 

But that doesn't mean it's not perfect for someone else! 

And if you are honest, you'd observe the results before jumping in with an opinion about whether it works or not. No problem with the opinion that it *seems* contrived, or whatever though.


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## chrisd (Feb 14, 2014)

I had a chat with an Aimpoint coach today and am quite keen to do a course. It's no more than the cost of a couple of chipping lessons and if it knock 1 shot off my handicap it's been worthwhile.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2014)

Spoke to a couple of very successful PGA coaches today about Aimpoint

One had been on the course 

Response was what I expected 

- each to their own but they both think it is a waste of money for an amateur unless the amateur can putt with the same consistent stroke every single putt.


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## User20205 (Feb 14, 2014)

Foxholer said:



https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=cr&ei=KVb-UryLOqeBywO3g4CoAw#q=drivel



Btw. We actually agree! It's the evangelical, and generally uninformed, pooh-pooh-ing of it that I consider wrong. 

Not for you? Fine. 

But that doesn't mean it's not perfect for someone else! 

And if you are honest, you'd observe the results before jumping in with an opinion about whether it works or not. No problem with the opinion that it *seems* contrived, or whatever though.
		
Click to expand...

I can't observe the results because I'm not up for trying it. I've read the promo stuff that's all, I obviously haven't got your keen observational skills because I've seen no one using it, they can't sell many magic beans down here. 

the only reason I got drawn into this is because of one of your high handed slightly patronising replies, I really wish I hadn't

you know when I said you were boring me to death ....


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## 3565 (Feb 14, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Spoke to a couple of very successful PGA coaches today about Aimpoint

One had been on the course 

Response was what I expected 

- each to their own but they both think it is a waste of money for an amateur unless the amateur can putt with the same consistent stroke every single putt.
		
Click to expand...

fair enough, their opinion, but are they saying that you, a Cat 1 player, don't have a REASONABLE consistent stroke? I would suspect you do, how else are you a Cat 1 player?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2014)

3565 said:



			fair enough, their opinion, but are they saying that you, a Cat 1 player, don't have a REASONABLE consistent stroke? I would suspect you do, how else are you a Cat 1 player?
		
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They said there was no reason for me to look at other methods as I appear to read greens well and get the crucial elements close - pace


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They said there was no reason for me to look at other methods as I appear to read greens well and get the crucial elements close - pace
		
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to read what areas, if any, they suggested was most effective for you to work on. Cynically, I'd think it involved their (or other Pros) input rather more than the likes of Aimpoint courses or Wedge analysis/grinding, but that's not un-natural. Bet it wouldn't involve spending Â£300 on a new Driver though!

If you posed the question 'I have Â£250 (or Â£100 or Â£500) and 120 hours (again think of a number) that I can dedicate to Golf training/practice from here to the end of the season, with the idea of getting as low as I can by <whenever>. How and when do you recommend the best way to allocate those resources' In other words, let's create a plan! 

I tried to do that with my Pro many years ago, when i knew some of those numbers, but he wasn't keen to set the time aside to do it, preferring ad-hoc lessons and practice. Fairly stereotypical attitude, but one that could be worth battering a bit imo. I've seen equivalent plans, sort of along the lines I'd envisaged, for kids development, so why not us big kids!


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## SGC001 (Mar 7, 2014)

Sorry to dredge this thread up form the depths. 

I gather there's an aimpoint app. 

Does anyone know if that'd be legal and if so what other features you'd have to make sure your mobile phone didn't have.


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## virtuocity (Mar 7, 2014)

SGC001 said:



			Sorry to dredge this thread up form the depths. 

I gather there's an aimpoint app. 

Does anyone know if that'd be legal and if so what other features you'd have to make sure your mobile phone didn't have.
		
Click to expand...

Good question.... there was a 100000000 page thread about mobile phones recently but I'm still none-the-wiser as to whether they are allowed on the course!

I don't use midpoint- only Express so I don't need charts or anything.  Just my feet, fingers and a prayer!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 7, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			I don't use midpoint- only Express so I don't need charts or anything.  *Just my feet, fingers and a prayer!*

Click to expand...

That's what I use too.....only I haven't paid anything for the privilege   :ears:


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## NWJocko (Mar 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			That's what I use too.....only I haven't paid anything for the privilege   :ears:
		
Click to expand...

It's a special Aimpoint prayer though, like the Lord's Prayer :ears:

Saw something on twitter with Adam Scott using it in the tournament last week. Was holding his fingers up in a "scouts honour" type of pose?


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## richart (Mar 7, 2014)

drive4show said:



			That's what I use too.....only I haven't paid anything for the privilege   :ears:
		
Click to expand...

 Many a mickle makes a muckle Gordon.:thup:


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## 3565 (Mar 8, 2014)

SGC001 said:



			Sorry to dredge this thread up form the depths. 

I gather there's an aimpoint app. 

Does anyone know if that'd be legal and if so what other features you'd have to make sure your mobile phone didn't have.
		
Click to expand...

ive got the app, and it's more accurate by it giving all the individual feet up to 20 as apposed to the 5 10 15 20ft chart readings, and gives .5% in the grade as in 2.5 or 3.5% and up to 13 stimp reading. But I don't think it's legal to use in comp play as it's on your phone. If gps ain't allowed then this won't be.


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## 3565 (Mar 8, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			It's a special Aimpoint prayer though, like the Lord's Prayer :ears:

Saw something on twitter with Adam Scott using it in the tournament last week. Was holding his fingers up in a "scouts honour" type of pose?
		
Click to expand...

yes he was using it as is the bloke who just missed the play off, he used express read to, can't remember his name.


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## NWJocko (Mar 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			yes he was using it as is the bloke who just missed the play off, he used express read to, can't remember his name.
		
Click to expand...

How does the express read work with the fingers then?

Not something I think I'd do (never say never right enough) just interested how it works....

Do you think anyone will do the non express Aimpoint now?


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## SGC001 (Mar 8, 2014)

3565 said:



			ive got the app, and it's more accurate by it giving all the individual feet up to 20 as apposed to the 5 10 15 20ft chart readings, and gives .5% in the grade as in 2.5 or 3.5% and up to 13 stimp reading. But I don't think it's legal to use in comp play as it's on your phone. If gps ain't allowed then this won't be.
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure?

I'm not sure mobiles are always disallowed for use as a distance measuring device and if the app is just the same as a chart (even if it contains the data of extra charts) might it not also be available.

https://www.usga.org/equipment/overview/Distance-Measuring-Devices-FAQ/

http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/USGAHome/equipment/DMD flowchartv1-3.pdf

If it was legal it might be tempting.


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## 3565 (Mar 8, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			How does the express read work with the fingers then?

Not something I think I'd do (never say never right enough) just interested how it works....

Do you think anyone will do the non express Aimpoint now?
		
Click to expand...

ok. Think of the green as a clock, the green slopes back to front (12-6), hole is in the centre, and your ball is pin high at 3 o'clock. Now you need to know the stimp of the greens, let's say UK AVE is 9, and you now need to find % of the slope, which lets say is 3%. This express read at the moment is for across the slope or 90* which is our example here! you would stand 2 paces behind the ball facing the hole (this accounts for the speed as in if it was 7 on stimp, you'd stand on right behind the ball, every step back from the ball accounts for 1ft of increase in speed) so stimp of 9 is 2 paces behind the ball. We know the slope as we face the hole from behind the ball will be right to left, Raise your arm stick 3 fingers in the air close your non dominant eye,  the left side of your fore finger should cover the right half of the hole leaving the left half visible, once you cover half the hole with your fore finger look at the outside edge of your 3rd finger and this will be your break or Aimpoint for that putt. 

Sounds complex but once you know how to calculate the slope plus speed it takes 5 secs to do.

now I can't wait for the barrage of critics saying, WT...... 

As for it taking over the main Aimpoint read, the Express is a quick reference just like plumb bobbing, but not as accurate as the chart. 

Thank you for listening and I'm happy to take your sceptic remarks Dragons!!!!!!


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## vkurup (Mar 8, 2014)

I did the course along with a friend.  He was skeptical but tagged along.  After the course, I dont use the book at all, but do the other steps, which I find useful. I am not a very consistent putter, so even if I read the break length, I would not be able to putt it that way.  However, despite that I think my putting has improved - more due to the confidence than my putting ability.  I am hoping to do the Express one at some point

My skeptical friend is a full blown convert. He takes his book everywhere.  He apparently went around in 30 putts or something - which is pretty good for a 24 HC!!!  He is thinking of doing a refresher in the summer too.


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## 3565 (Mar 8, 2014)

Aimpoint does not help in your putting technique, that's hard work with a Pro territory. But at least you can get a better understanding of green reading thru AP.


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## vkurup (Mar 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Aimpoint does not help in your putting technique, that's hard work with a Pro territory. But at least you can get a better understanding of green reading thru AP.
		
Click to expand...

+1...  also it does not dictate where your PP/FC should stand when you are putting..


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2014)

Do you need to have a custom fitted ball marker to use Aimpoint?


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## 3565 (Mar 9, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Do you need to have a custom fitted ball marker to use Aimpoint?
		
Click to expand...

Sarcasm........... You got to love it.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2014)

3565 said:



			Lmao, yeah you can do multiple breaks with it and there is a way of calculating it but if you can't grasp a single planer green read then I ain't going to try and explain that.
		
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Jut re-read the entire thread and I still want to know how you read a multiple-break putt using this method.
Can someone please explain.....?


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Jut re-read the entire thread and I still want to know how you read a multiple-break putt using this method.
Can someone please explain.....?
		
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You are starting with the most complicated first. Not normally a great idea. Though sometimes that's just the way it is. The guy that took me for my Road Test for car license stated (afterwards) that being able to get from stopped to 3rd in the 50s Rover we were in was all he needed to check about gear changing work!

I believe AP splits the putt up into 'logical' chunks according to the different chunks of break, then finds an 'average'. I chop my reads into thirds anyway, or at least sections, so if there's multiple breaks I start on something like an average and iteratively adjust for the differing breaks - from the hole back to me.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You are starting with the most complicated first.
		
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That's because I understand the basics of the "1 plane" putt and also because I did just as many multiple-break putts as I do ordinary ones...


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## 3565 (Mar 9, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Jut re-read the entire thread and I still want to know how you read a multiple-break putt using this method.
Can someone please explain.....?
		
Click to expand...

That I don't know as yet, but I'm doing the advanced course in May. If I had a double breaker today, then I'd just revert to the normal way of reading putts. After May I'll know a lot more about it.


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## Robobum (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			The guy that took me for my Road Test for car license stated (afterwards) that being able to get from stopped to 3rd in the 50s Rover we were in was all he needed to check about gear changing work!

.
		
Click to expand...

Probably as fast as the guy in front with the red flag could run


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## vkurup (Mar 9, 2014)

I can recommend Rory gets checked in for an Aimpoint... cant putt for toffee..


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## CMAC (Mar 10, 2014)

3565 said:



			ok. *Think of the green as a clock, the green slopes back to front (12-6), hole is in the centre, and your ball is pin high at 3 o'clock. Now you need to know the stimp of the greens, let's say UK AVE is 9, and you now need to find % of the slope, which lets say is 3%. This express read at the moment is for across the slope or 90* which is our example here! you would stand 2 paces behind the ball facing the hole (this accounts for the speed as in if it was 7 on stimp, you'd stand on right behind the ball, every step back from the ball accounts for 1ft of increase in speed) so stimp of 9 is 2 paces behind the ball. We know the slope as we face the hole from behind the ball will be right to left, Raise your arm stick 3 fingers in the air close your non dominant eye,  the left side of your fore finger should cover the right half of the hole leaving the left half visible, once you cover half the hole with your fore finger look at the outside edge of your 3rd finger and this will be your break or Aimpoint for that putt. *

Sounds complex but once you know how to calculate the slope plus speed it takes 5 secs to do.

now I can't wait for the barrage of critics saying, WT...... 

As for it taking over the main Aimpoint read, the Express is a quick reference just like plumb bobbing, but not as accurate as the chart. 

Thank you for listening and I'm happy to take your sceptic remarks Dragons!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

as there is still a lot of guestimate numbers in there, isn't this what us 'normal' putters do once we get a 'feel' for the greens?


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2014)

CMAC said:



			as there is still a lot of guestimate numbers in there, isn't this what us 'normal' putters do once we get a 'feel' for the greens?
		
Click to expand...

The guestimate is for an example purposely to highlight how the express read works. Once you learn the system it relatively quick and gives a good indication of break. Now, I showed a 75yr old on our putting green that has a 4% slope on a stimp of 8 from 15ft in both directions, and we put a tee peg in the ground where his express read said to aim at, he canned both putts first time........ His face said it all really.


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## CMAC (Mar 12, 2014)

3565 said:



			The guestimate is for an example purposely to highlight how the express read works. Once you learn the system it relatively quick and gives a good indication of break. Now, I showed a 75yr old on our putting *green that has a 4% slope on a stimp of 8 from 15ft in both directions*, and we put a tee peg in the ground where his express read said to aim at, he canned both putts first time........ His face said it all really.
		
Click to expand...

but how do you know these figures, they are as rough as mine when I roughly read a line, then how do you know where to aim (put the T peg in your example?) except you put it approximately where you think it should be...............which all boils down to what the rest of us do..............

However, I can see how this affirmation can help if you have trouble reading that a ball will run 'down' a slope, by how much will come from practice and getting a feel for the greens of that day.........

As much as it looks like I'm belittling aimpoint I'm not, just trying to see how different it is compared to a normal read based on normal physics and experience.


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## vkurup (Mar 12, 2014)

CMAC said:



			but how do you know these figures, they are as rough as mine when I roughly read a line, then how do you know where to aim (put the T peg in your example?) except you put it approximately where you think it should be...............which all boils down to what the rest of us do..............
		
Click to expand...

There is a bit in me that says RTFM... but the mods wont have it.. so wont say it 



CMAC said:



			As much as it looks like I'm belittling aimpoint I'm not, just trying to see how different it is compared to a normal read based on normal physics and experience.
		
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Agree with it.. If you have the experience, then fabulous.  However, for a relative beginner it gave me a jump start.  The numbers that 3665 talks about come from reading a guide book that you carry around and takes  2 second to read. I dont use the numbers but read the break by standing near the line. I think my putting is now less worse than before. 

Having said that, even for the experienced lot, I think it gives them a boot of confidence that they are reading it correctly.  My friend was surprised at some amount of break that we read from the book, but when we followed the instruction, it did break by that much.. Think of it like a refresher green reading course.


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## CMAC (Mar 12, 2014)

vkurup said:



*There is a bit in me that says RTFM... but the mods wont have it.. so wont say it* 



Agree with it.. If you have the experience, then fabulous.  However, for a relative beginner it gave me a jump start.  The numbers that 3665 talks about come from reading a guide book that you carry around and takes  2 second to read. I dont use the numbers but read the break by standing near the line. I think my putting is now less worse than before. 

Having said that, even for the experienced lot, I think it gives them a boot of confidence that they are reading it correctly.  My friend was surprised at some amount of break that we read from the book, but when we followed the instruction, it did break by that much.. Think of it like a refresher green reading course.
		
Click to expand...

which defeats the point of a forum and discussion, might as well say the same with any rules query you've had 

I didnt realise the guide book gave you all these figures, wonder where they get it from as each course and green are different.

As for having experience, you have the same experience of gravity that I have, didnt take me long when a putt falls below a hole to aim a bit higher.

On saying that there must be something in it as you are all forking out a min Â£40 for the experience, so I will duly find a club member and RTFM- maybe I'll be converted as my putting is one of my weakest areas:mmm:


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## vkurup (Mar 12, 2014)

CMAC said:



			which defeats the point of a forum and discussion, might as well say the same with any rules query you've had 

Click to expand...

cmac.. the rtfm was attempt at humour, so apologies if offended.  I am sure this will come to bite me at some point. 

I was very skeptical of it before I went on the course. It was 90 quid which could have found better use elsewhere.  But then I got an offer to do it for Â£50 and then play the Brocket Hall/Melbourne course for another 40.  No one on the course and we had a 2 ball millionaire golf that day!!! We put it into practice and both struggled, but that is part of the learning and unlearning process



CMAC said:



			I didnt realise the guide book gave you all these figures, wonder *where they get it from as each course and green are different.*

As for having experience, you have the same experience of gravity that I have, didnt take me long when a putt falls below a hole to aim a bit higher.

On saying that there must be something in it as you are all forking out a min Â£40 for the experience, so I will duly find a club member and RTFM- maybe I'll be converted as my putting is one of my weakest areas:mmm:
		
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The chart book is not specific to any green or course but provides a template.  You then make ur calculation and use the appropriate page.  Here is a pic that I got from the net.. 
	


As you see from the pic, there is no mention of any greens or courses.  
1) There is a page for stimp reading from 7 - 10. For 
2) For each stimp they have a reading for slopes 1% to 4%
3) Once you have determined your stimp and your slope, you look up the book and see how much will it break. 
4) The book then tells u where to aim i.e. 1 inch to the right or -1 to the left (which are the numbers in the pic)
I will try and upload a pic of my book when i get near my bag.  

If ur at KoK or H4H, I am sure one of us can show the book.


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## garyinderry (Mar 12, 2014)

I haven't RTFM but I still cant get m head around the fact the line is dictated largely by pace!  you might see the line, the chart might tell you where to aim.  if you don't hit it hard enough / too hard, it wont go in!


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## vkurup (Mar 12, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			I haven't RTFM but I still cant get m head around the fact the line is dictated largely by pace!  you might see the line, the chart might tell you where to aim.  if you don't hit it hard enough / too hard, it wont go in!
		
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Agree.. it wont putt itself irrespective of Aimpoint or nopoint..

I think this page makes a decent read and addresses some concerns on this thread..
http://www.sggc.com.au/2013/03/01/can-we-really-trust-the-aimchart/


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## Foxholer (Mar 12, 2014)

CMAC said:



			I didnt realise the guide book gave you all these figures, wonder where they get it from as each course and green are different.
		
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It all comes down to physics!

Greens may be 'different' but (on non-grained greens like we have in UK) you only need to know (estimate) the speed and slope and you have everything you need.

Their PGA 'version' - which is not about green reading - demonstrates that!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 12, 2014)

It still boils down to those that have never tried it or never want to being sceptical. My suggestion is to see it in action somewhere and understand how quickly and easily you can get an accurate read. Before I went on the course I would never have believed some of the reads it was giving me, but putt the ball on the right line (it doesn't help the mechanics) and it really is amazing how good it is.


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## Robobum (Mar 12, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It still boils down to those that have never tried it or never want to being sceptical. My suggestion is to see it in action somewhere and understand how quickly and easily you can get an accurate read. Before I went on the course I would never have believed some of the reads it was giving me, but putt the ball on the right line (it doesn't help the mechanics) and it really is amazing how good it is.
		
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Scepticism, well mine anyway, comes from the inability of the users to quantify how Aimpoint helps to hole more putts. 

Assessing green speed is a guess? If the guess is incorrect, the charts are pointless?

Assessing %slope is a guess? Again, the charts are pointless if you have it wrong?

It's hard to see how the Aimpoint guessing game is any different to a "normal" guessing game. Except that one costs Â£90 more than the other.

I'm never going to criticise anyone using it or any other method though.


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## Foxholer (Mar 12, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Scepticism, well mine anyway, comes from the inability of the users to quantify how Aimpoint helps to hole more putts. 

Assessing green speed is a guess? If the guess is incorrect, the charts are pointless?

Assessing %slope is a guess? Again, the charts are pointless if you have it wrong?

It's hard to see how the Aimpoint guessing game is any different to a "normal" guessing game. Except that one costs Â£90 more than the other.

I'm never going to criticise anyone using it or any other method though.
		
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Indeed.

I seem to remember stating that it was a 'quite scientific method of guessing'. If that helps, and I've seen several cases where it seems to have, then that's great. It certainly seems to give users more confidence, always a good thing imo.


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## SGC001 (Mar 12, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Scepticism, well mine anyway, comes from the inability of the users to quantify how Aimpoint helps to hole more putts. 

Assessing green speed is a guess? If the guess is incorrect, the charts are pointless?

Assessing %slope is a guess? Again, the charts are pointless if you have it wrong?

It's hard to see how the Aimpoint guessing game is any different to a "normal" guessing game. Except that one costs Â£90 more than the other.

I'm never going to criticise anyone using it or any other method though.
		
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I look at it slightly differently in that I'm not that bothered by others results one way or the other.

The basic elements for putting as I see them are pace, line and green reading. Even if we do these things well we can still miss due to surface irregularities.

If I was missing or making putts and wanted to know why it could be due to any 1 of the factors or a combination of them (I might misread, start it wrong and make it).

If I was making loads I might not be that interested in doing it, if I was missing some then it would become an option.

So if I was going to assess my putting I'd try and assess myself on aim (test to see if I can start it on line), on pace (test to see if I can hit at the pace I want for different distances) and on green reading (take aim out by using tee pegs as a gate, I know if I hit it at the correct pace when I see it finish) individually. Then if I found green reading an issue I'd consider it.

I see aimpoint as a feel system, you're just collecting as much information as you can and using that to make a best guess, similar to a like a laser or GPS.

Most people who putt well will have practiced a fair bit to get experience of this, with aimpoint I don't see any reason why you couldn't take a complete beginner and get them to a pretty good level of green reading within a couple of hours. They'd still have to learn to putt.

One advantage of green speed guess is that after your first putt on a green, if you feel you missed because the pace was wrong then just flip the chart to the appropriate speed for your next putt (green keepers shouldn't be producing greens of vastly different speeds on the same course).

Slope's a guess, though they give you a way to feel it or assess it. However, on a home course or any if you're that bothered you could map the course beforehand (or just the main pin positions)and it wouldn't be some much of a guess then.

I've done the course to see what it's about and found it very interesting, the 2 hours with the guy who knew what they were doing both in green reading and other areas of putting was time and money well spent for me. I don't see the system taking that much time to get a read.

I think it's nice to have confirmation, I can remember hearing either Stepen Ames, Robert Allenby or Stuart Appelby making a comment along the lines of they'd had their best year after committing fully to shots from the fairway, not second guessing themselves after they had to come to accept that if they were half a club out so what, they'd still be close.


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## Robobum (Mar 12, 2014)

SGC001 said:



			I look at it slightly differently in that I'm not that bothered by others results one way or the other.

The basic elements for putting as I see them are pace, line and green reading. Even if we do these things well we can still miss due to surface irregularities.

If I was missing or making putts and wanted to know why it could be due to any 1 of the factors or a combination of them (I might misread, start it wrong and make it).

*If I was making loads I might not be that interested in doing it, if I was missing some then it would become an option.*

So if I was going to assess my putting I'd try and assess myself on aim (test to see if I can start it on line), on pace (test to see if I can hit at the pace I want for different distances) and on green reading (take aim out by using tee pegs as a gate, I know if I hit it at the correct pace when I see it finish) individually. Then if I found green reading an issue I'd consider it.

I see aimpoint as a feel system, you're just collecting as much information as you can and using that to make a best guess, similar to a like a laser or GPS.

Most people who putt well will have practiced a fair bit to get experience of this, with aimpoint I don't see any reason why you couldn't take a complete beginner and get them to a pretty good level of green reading within a couple of hours. They'd still have to learn to putt.

One advantage of green speed guess is that after your first putt on a green, if you feel you missed because the pace was wrong then just flip the chart to the appropriate speed for your next putt (green keepers shouldn't be producing greens of vastly different speeds on the same course).

Slope's a guess, though they give you a way to feel it or assess it. However, on a home course or any if you're that bothered you could map the course beforehand (or just the main pin positions)and it wouldn't be some much of a guess then.

I've done the course to see what it's about and found it very interesting, the 2 hours with the guy who knew what they were doing both in green reading and other areas of putting was time and money well spent for me. I don't see the system taking that much time to get a read.

I think it's nice to have confirmation, I can remember hearing either Stepen Ames, Robert Allenby or Stuart Appelby making a comment along the lines of they'd had their best year after committing fully to shots from the fairway, not second guessing themselves after they had to come to accept that if they were half a club out so what, they'd still be close.
		
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Good post, agree with that.

That is my point there - everyone misses putts due to misreads, so Aimpoint is very interesting to me if it will help me hole more putts. But, there has to be something tangible for the advocates to remain with the method surely? When I asked the question of how many putts were being holed, there was no answer - then the defensive comments came.

Feeling more confident over putts is too wishy washy for me, You can be the most confident 3 putter in the world, but it doesn't help the scores any. 

I'm still searching for the green reading laser grid from Caddyshack to go into production!!


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2014)

CMAC said:



			but how do you know these figures, they are as rough as mine when I roughly read a line, then how do you know where to aim (put the T peg in your example?) except you put it approximately where you think it should be...............which all boils down to what the rest of us do..............
		
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There is no guessing about these figures in Aimpoint. You get to LEARN (like most things in golf) what to do to attain these figures.
A putt is affected by numerous parameters but the main 4 are Distance, Speed, Slope and Angle.  Distance is down to pacing the putt off (easily done),  speed, you can ask, stimp yourself (if you have one) OR use the chart on a 5ft putt to get a speed reading. Slope is judge by the weight placement on your feet, no different to walking down length of a putt to gauge which way slope is going. Angle is obtained from the ball to the hole from the midpoint of the putt, the chart will tell you if it's uphill or downhill and this will eventually give the amount of break for that putt. 

Sounds complex but it's no different to you working out, a downhill lie that flies left to right out of a flying lie into a 15mph wind, with pin cut 4ft left of the green from 163yds out, how far left do I aim? ..... What club do I use? You'll have maybe one of those in a round, Aimpoint, if we hit the green in reg, will be used 18 times at least. The more you do it the easier it becomes to a point that I can stand to the side and have a good idea before I get to the ball what it's going to do. 

I will say this, normally in UK greens are generally about 9-10 on a stimp, if we had a weeks golf on various course and the speeds were similar day to day, then I'd say, if comparable in putting technique, there not be much between us in number of putts. But if we played a course that had a stimp of 12, then potentially, I'd be able to adapt quicker to the huge amount of breaks required on a green that fast then you. Aimpoint gives me that.


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## Foxholer (Mar 12, 2014)

3565 said:



			There is no guessing about these figures in Aimpoint. You get to LEARN (like most things in golf) what to do to attain these figures.
		
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That's codswallop!

You are just learning to guess better. Though that's a good thing!

The fact that it comes up with a precise number should not detract from the fact that everything about the process to get there was a guess - albeit an educated one!

To quantify the benefit, somewhat...What were your putts-per-GIR before learning Aimpoint? What are they now?


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Good post, agree with that.

That is my point there - everyone misses putts due to misreads, so Aimpoint is very interesting to me if it will help me hole more putts. But, there has to be something tangible for the advocates to remain with the method surely? When I asked the question of how many putts were being holed, there was no answer - then the defensive comments came.

Feeling more confident over putts is too wishy washy for me, You can be the most confident 3 putter in the world, but it doesn't help the scores any. 

I'm still searching for the green reading laser grid from Caddyshack to go into production!! 

Click to expand...

Think asking that question, how many putts were being holed, doesn't justify if Aimpoint is viable or not. It tells you the amount of break needed for that putt, but can't work out if your putting action is a figure of 8, or you open/close the head by a degree or 2, and if it deflects off a spike/pitch mark/stone, or the hole is crowned...... Just cos I use Aimpoint doesn't mean I'm immune to all the vagaries of outside influences, but it gives me a great OPPORTUNITY to hole more putts and I have holed a fair share of putts including more 20ft plus putts. 

Let me ask you this, if your Pro had been on the European tour and gave a 2-3 hr seminar on short game shots that he gained from Seve whilst on tour and charged Â£100, would it be foolish to disregard paying that and learn how he approached and played certain shots that could potentially improve you in getting the ball into the hole?


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's codswallop!

You are just learning to guess better. Though that's a good thing!

The fact that it comes up with a precise number should not detract from the fact that everything about the process to get there was a guess - albeit an educated one!

To quantify the benefit, somewhat...What were your putts-per-GIR before learning Aimpoint? What are they now?
		
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ok codswallop stands corrected. I suppose everything we do in golf is a guess then. 

All I can give you is my stats right now thru golfshot, I had stats on computer but lost them before Aimpoint, I can't remember what they were.

GIR is 64.7%.   Putts per hole 1.78.   Per GIR 1.84


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## Robobum (Mar 12, 2014)

3565 said:



			Think asking that question, how many putts were being holed, doesn't justify if Aimpoint is viable or not. It tells you the amount of break needed for that putt, but can't work out if your putting action is a figure of 8, or you open/close the head by a degree or 2, and if it deflects off a spike/pitch mark/stone, or the hole is crowned...... Just cos I use Aimpoint doesn't mean I'm immune to all the vagaries of outside influences, but it gives me a great OPPORTUNITY to hole more putts and I have holed a fair share of putts including more 20ft plus putts. 

Let me ask you this, if your Pro had been on the European tour and gave a 2-3 hr seminar on short game shots that he gained from Seve whilst on tour and charged Â£100, would it be foolish to disregard paying that and learn how he approached and played certain shots that could potentially improve you in getting the ball into the hole?
		
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We have exactly the same amount of opportunities, whether Aimpoint increases chance of taking those opportunities is the point no-one has demonstrated...............as of yet.

He'd be teaching me a technique which I could execute physically rather than an elaborate guessing system though


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2014)

Robobum said:



			We have exactly the same amount of opportunities, whether Aimpoint increases chance of taking those opportunities is the point no-one has demonstrated...............as of yet.

He'd be teaching me a technique which I could execute physically rather than an elaborate guessing system though
		
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and I'm executing an elaborate system that has seen me have more putts go online and hole a few more putts then I did before, do I hole everyone, no, do I 3 putt, yes, do I have off days putting, yes, but that's not the systems fault, that's physical, like you executing a short game technique well one day physically but next day it doesn't........ Is that Seve's fault? 

At the end of the day it's a learning skill that helps players whether it's Aimpoint, Trackman, Peltz short game bible, the linear method, Seve's/Mickelsons short game, Leadbetter/harmon/Foley/Golfing Machine teachings, Dr Karl Morris/Joseph Parent/Golf 54/Rotella psychology, they are there to help. Not to everyone's liking, but at least I've TRIED these out over the years and gained a little bit from each. You will go and pay good money for a fitting to the latest TM advertising claim of Loft up, if the numbers crunch then you'll buy it, if it doesn't and you've already got the right club, then the doubt is taken away. I didn't pay but I tried it out and made no difference for me. 

Call me a nutter, I don't rightly care, but I'd rather be that and try then be a sceptic and not open minded to these advances.


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## Robobum (Mar 12, 2014)

3565 said:



			and I'm executing an elaborate system that has seen me have more putts go online and hole a few more putts then I did before, do I hole everyone, no, do I 3 putt, yes, do I have off days putting, yes, but that's not the systems fault, that's physical, like you executing a short game technique well one day physically but next day it doesn't........ Is that Seve's fault? 

At the end of the day it's a learning skill that helps players whether it's Aimpoint, Trackman, Peltz short game bible, the linear method, Seve's/Mickelsons short game, Leadbetter/harmon/Foley/Golfing Machine teachings, Dr Karl Morris/Joseph Parent/Golf 54/Rotella psychology, they are there to help. Not to everyone's liking, but at least I've TRIED these out over the years and gained a little bit from each. You will go and pay good money for a fitting to the latest TM advertising claim of Loft up, if the numbers crunch then you'll buy it, if it doesn't and you've already got the right club, then the doubt is taken away. I didn't pay but I tried it out and made no difference for me. 

Call me a nutter, I don't rightly care, but I'd rather be that and try then be a sceptic and not open minded to these advances.
		
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I don't see what is physical about guessing a stimp of 8 when it is 9. Or guessing a slope is 5% when it is 7%.

If the greens vary slightly in speed (which almost definitely they will do) what do you do then? After guessing the speed correctly at bang on 8 on the 1st hole, the 2nd is 8.2, the 3rd is 7.9. When do the speeds change the read?

Don't need to get defensive!


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I don't see what is physical about guessing a stimp of 8 when it is 9. Or guessing a slope is 5% when it is 7%.

If the greens vary slightly in speed (which almost definitely they will do) what do you do then? After guessing the speed correctly at bang on 8 on the 1st hole, the 2nd is 8.2, the 3rd is 7.9. When do the speeds change the read?

Don't need to get defensive! 

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far from defensive as you are attacking. 

Ill be interested in how you actually read a putt with your system, which I guess is self taught? 
How do you go about it? 
Do you Read from one side? 
What you look at? 
Do you access where the ball starts to break? 
Where do you aim your ball and putter to? 
Are you a break taker and die it, or take the break out and rattle it? 
Do you plumb bob, a line burner, or visually see ball rolling? 

What makes what you do better then any other?

as for the speed parameters you stated, I think on average they would be er............ 8!!!!! Not sure of your point there?


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## DanFST (Mar 12, 2014)

This is the first time i've come across something like this. And after reading 47 odd pages, it does seem like a massive waste of time!


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## Robobum (Mar 12, 2014)

3565 said:



			far from defensive as you are attacking. 

Ill be interested in how you actually read a putt with your system, which I guess is self taught? 
How do you go about it? 
Do you Read from one side? 
What you look at? 
Do you access where the ball starts to break? 
Where do you aim your ball and putter to? 
Are you a break taker and die it, or take the break out and rattle it? 
Do you plumb bob, a line burner, or visually see ball rolling? 

What makes what you do better then any other?

as for the speed parameters you stated, I think on average they would be er............ 8!!!!! Not sure of your point there?
		
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I think you need to reread my posts, no attacking. I want someone to tell me that Aimpoint (or another system of any sort) works and demonstrate that - you aren't.

I do not think the way I do it is better than another - however I am interested if someone demonstrates that theirs IS the best.

I don't want to get into math with you but the average of those three numbers is not 8 and that was the point of the question.......If the green speeds differ slightly, your perfect read for 8 on the stimp stops going in the hole at what speed? 0.1 difference? 0.2? 0.3?


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## bobmac (Mar 12, 2014)

Aimpoint could be useful to those who learn by the numbers, those who learn from charts and figures.
Aimpoint wouldnt be useful to those who learn by feel, by imagination and experience.
Who's right?
Both are
It's what suits your way of learning.


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## DanFST (Mar 12, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Aimpoint could be useful to those who learn by the numbers, those who learn from charts and figures.
		
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I agree, everyone has there own way of learning, however. From what i can tell it would work every time if you could quantifiably. input correct and measured data. We all know you can't do that. So it's basically adding your estimated readings. The formula could be correct but if one reading is still off, it won't work. And is pointless. I'm guessing Aimpoint isn't cheap?


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## 3565 (Mar 12, 2014)

Robobum said:



			I think you need to reread my posts, no attacking. I want someone to tell me that Aimpoint (or another system of any sort) works and demonstrate that - you aren't.

I do not think the way I do it is better than another - however I am interested if someone demonstrates that theirs IS the best.

I don't want to get into math with you but the average of those three numbers is not 8 and that was the point of the question.......If the green speeds differ slightly, your perfect read for 8 on the stimp stops going in the hole at what speed? 0.1 difference? 0.2? 0.3?
		
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I never said your attacking, I'm far from being defensive as you are as attacking. 
You play off 2 so you have a good understanding of breaks, so therefore your routine and break reading is far superior (no offense here) to most. Therefore you probably don't need Aimpoint as you are holing your fair share of putts. 
I stand corrected again, 8ish then...... The chart has stimp of 8 9 10 11 12, so the speed could be 8.5 so do you round up or down, me I'll round it up as if I'm going to miss it will be on the high side as it still got a chance of goin in, and like you said you gain from experience..

Ok ok im not here to convert you I'm just passing on how it works and you need proof. Proof is in the doing and go find out and no amount of posts here will convince you. I've posted my putting stats here earlier and take from it what you will? I don't know what your stats are but compare them to mine and see if they are better or worse then mine. I play all over and on tough courses like Moortown, Allerton, Sherwood Forest, Hallamshire, so not all at my home course either.


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