# Right leg position at the top of the backswing



## One Planer (Jan 27, 2015)

When it comes to straightening or allowing the right leg to lose flex in the backswing,  are there different schools of thought? 

Here's an old picture of some of the games greatest ever players:







Quite a few majors won with those swings :thup:

j I w if you look at more modern swings, difference in knee flex in the right knee is noticeable:

Luke Donald:







Adam Scott:







Justin Rose:







Martin Kaymer:







Charles Schwartzel:







Are there different schools of thought/teaching when it comes to allowing the leg to lose flex/straighten or retaining  it's flex? 

Is one way considered more correct than the other? 

Is there reasons why you shouldn't allow the trail leg to lose its flex in the backswing?  

Or

Is the reverse true and you should allow your trail knee to lose flex in the back swing? 

I'd like to point out I'm not after help with this,  I just thought it an interesting topic of conversation. 

Anyone have any thoughts?


----------



## virtuocity (Jan 27, 2015)

You thinking about Stack and Tilt again?


----------



## tsped83 (Jan 27, 2015)

Is it even possible to consciously know what your right leg is doing in the swing? For me it's instinctive and I couldn't tell you what happens with my leg. I'd also argue a lot of those legs looks very similar to me, both new and old.


----------



## chellie (Jan 27, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Is it even possible to consciously know what your right leg is doing in the swing? For me it's instinctive and I couldn't tell you what happens with my leg. I'd also argue a lot of those legs looks very similar to me, both new and old.
		
Click to expand...

I was just going to say that. Also, wasn't there a thread like this last year.


----------



## Region3 (Jan 27, 2015)

This is just my opinion, not (knowingly) fact.

I think for most handicap golfers, the right leg straightening is a symptom of not being able to turn the shoulders more than the hips. The only way to get a full shoulder turn for them is to turn the hips more than necessary, which almost forces the right knee to lose flex.

I don't think in itself the right knee straightening is the problem, but what causes it to do so.

This is something I'm trying to 'fix', so quite often I will watch a pro swing just watching their right leg, and it's surprising to me how many have exactly the same angle in their right knee at the top of the backswing that they did at address.

I've also noticed that when I get it right I can really feel the muscle on the inside of my right thigh being worked, and to me at least, it feels more powerful.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2015)

Straightening the right leg in the backswing restricts weight shift and prevents turning behind the ball, it creates a tendency to lift up or early extend. It also promotes a reverse pivot and potential slicing.    

S@T does allow the right leg to straighten but keeps the weight forward in the downswing and pushes the hips forward to shallow out the swing.

IMO most of those images are not really straightening the rear leg a great deal, it looks like it due to the forward knee turning inwards.


----------



## JustOne (Jan 27, 2015)

The swing is like a puzzle, all the pieces need to fit to have a great swing, just looking at one part doesn't mean it will work with the other pieces you have.

IF you allow the right leg to lose some flex then you need the other pieces to work with that move, IF you restrict your leg movement then you need a whole different set of pieces.

IMO there is no problem losing *some* flex (some tour golfers straighten it completely), but it depends what is going on with your own swing and what you want to achieve.

Bad backs caused by restricting hip turn has plagued millions and millions of golfers. Understanding the mechanics of what a human body can or can't do is paramount. Get someone to hold your hips *solidly* so they can't move and see how far you can turn your shoulders,.... 

Those pictures are slightly misleading and inconclusive both FOR and AGAINST losing flex as you need to know what the UPPER body is doing in relation to the legs (see above about 'pieces').


----------



## JustOne (Jan 27, 2015)

*Consider this...... *should the club be swung back ON THE HANDS/TOE LINE.....? 

or outside it?

or inside it?








These guys make millions,... now ask yourself your question again :thup:


----------



## Marc Cools (Jan 28, 2015)

*I think *the swing is a system with not exact positions but a range of positions within certain boundaries. Going more to a bouderie gives you certain advantages and disadvantages which has to be compensated by going with other parts to other boundaries. Over time the common thoughts about those boundaries evolves due to techniques like filming, Track Man, pressure plates and so on.

My pro wants me to have a little bent in the R leg. In the backswing I have to rotate around the R leg and adding pressure into the ground. It gives a lot of tension that I can use to hit it far. My general swing thought is not a circle movement around my spine but an ellipse around my two legs. It helps *me* to load my R side and to transfer the weight to the L side.
I have the tendency to take the club on the inside not allowing to rotate my shoulders very well. So I try to take the club outside which helps me to rotate the shoulders better. For me that works. For somebody else, who knows? Thats the pro's job who understands those boundaries very well.


----------



## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

Marc Cools said:



*I think *the swing is a system with not exact positions but a range of positions within certain boundaries. Going more to a bouderie gives you certain advantages and disadvantages which has to be compensated by going with other parts to other boundaries. Over time the common thoughts about those boundaries evolves due to techniques like filming, Track Man, pressure plates and so on.
		
Click to expand...

That sounds about right, no different than balancing a childs playground see-saw.... move something left and something has to move right to balance it. Allow your right knee to lose a little flex (straighten a bit) and something else has to balance that.

Problem is that 99.9% of golfers aren't balanced in the first place as they are waaaaaaay outside the boundaries you describe.


----------



## One Planer (Jan 28, 2015)

Some great replies so far :thup:

While reading a little about in online and came across this:


*Source: Peter Kostis*

_In your backswing especially. Once you get your flex at address, you want to feel like your right knee cap doesn't move much as you take the club back. If you really let it straighten, and let this leg lock, sometimes all you're gonna do is make this over the top move. So try to maintain some flex in your knees as you go back._

Not sure what to make of that.


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2015)

Remember that there's a difference between straightening the back leg (fine if that's what you do) and locking it (not a good thing to do). It's impossible to tell from those pics whether the back leg is locked or simply straight. And it's also impossible to tell just exactly in the swing the pic is taken. Many will straighten their back leg with the 'bump' of the hips that is the first part of the downswing! 

There's plenty of other things - as well as the straight right leg - that are not 'classic' about Doug Sanders's swing! His right leg is pretty straight throughout the entire backswing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny1BEmAsvD8


----------



## garyinderry (Jan 28, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Remember that there's a difference between straightening the back leg (fine if that's what you do) and locking it (not a good thing to do). It's impossible to tell from those pics whether the back leg is locked or simply straight. And it's also impossible to tell just exactly in the swing the pic is taken. Many will straighten their back leg with the 'bump' of the hips that is the first part of the downswing! 

There's plenty of other things - as well as the straight right leg - that are not 'classic' about Doug Sanders's swing! His right leg is pretty straight throughout the entire backswing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny1BEmAsvD8

Click to expand...

Loving that swing.  All over swingers should give that a try as the wide stance should naturally limit hip movement and as long as you dont let the left arm break you won't over swing.


----------



## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Loving that swing.  All over swingers should give that a try as *the wide stance should naturally limit hip movement *and as long as you dont let the left arm break you won't over swing.
		
Click to expand...

WHY would you want to do that??



JustOne said:



			Bad backs caused by restricting hip turn has plagued millions and millions of golfers. Understanding the mechanics of what a human body can or can't do is paramount. Get someone to hold your hips *solidly* so they can't move and see how far you can turn your shoulders,.... 

Click to expand...



And for what it's worth (from Doug Sanders's  Wikipedia....)



			He is remembered for an exceptionally short, flat golf swingâ€”a consequence, it appears, of a painful neck condition that radically restricted his movements.
		
Click to expand...

:mmm:


a bit more info from Google... 
"Sanders suffered from a condition called torticollis - "a neck condition where my head tilted one way and my chin went the other" - that caused intense pain. He was scheduled for an operation, but the doctor told him the operation wasn't guaranteed to rid him of the pain"

So if you happen to have torticollis


----------



## garyinderry (Jan 28, 2015)

Lot of people who overswing and get across the line do just that.    left arm breaks and they have the club head pointing way out to right field. 

It would be a good drill to help them and could adjust it as they manage to lessen the across the line problem and overswing.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2015)

Ensuring you have some secondary spine tilt will encourage you to keep some knee flex.   It makes it harder to straighten the leg.


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Ensuring you have some secondary spine tilt will encourage you to keep some knee flex.   It makes it harder to straighten the leg.
		
Click to expand...

Notwithstanding the importance of the initial setup and the back-swing, it has to be remembered that the entire purpose is to optimise impact - both from a power and consistency point of view. If having a straight back leg (or bowed wrist, or flat, steep or twirly swing) does that, then it's immaterial how that is achieved for the particular player!

Palmer was, arguably, the best player of his time (until Nicklaus) but had all sorts of quirks including being very hunched when playing irons (which he acknowledged was a 'weak' part of his game). You only need to look at how much Jeev Milkha Singh has won to see you don't need anywhere near a perfect swing to compete! And Eamon Darcy and Jim Furyk are further demo of that!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding the importance of the initial setup and the back-swing, it has to be remembered that the entire purpose is to optimise impact - both from a power and consistency point of view. If having a straight back leg (or bowed wrist, or flat, steep or twirly swing) does that, then it's immaterial how that is achieved for the particular player!

Palmer was, arguably, the best player of his time (until Nicklaus) but had all sorts of quirks including being very hunched when playing irons (which he acknowledged was a 'weak' part of his game). You only need to look at how much Jeev Milkha Singh has won to see you don't need anywhere near a perfect swing to compete! And Eamon Darcy and Jim Furyk are further demo of that!
		
Click to expand...

What  world class players can do and get away with is not a lot of help to the average Joe. You would probably run a mile from a coach that wanted you to emanate the swings you mentioned above.   IMO straightening the back leg in the backswing restricts weight shift and promotes a reverse pivot thus reducing power and consistency.   I admit lots of people do it, that's why the golfing world has so many slicers.

A flexed and stable back leg allows you to stay grounded and stable encouraging retained angles and good leverage.


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			What  world class players can do and get away with is not a lot of help to the average Joe.
		
Click to expand...

That's true, but a bit of a cop-out!

The reasoning is surely the same - And I believe that is what Gareth was asking in the OP! Doesn't that mean that either the 'world class players' have changed to have those straight back legs - so why was the change made? Or they always did it, so it wasn't as bad as made out to be as they progressed from juniors up to world class players!



SocketRocket said:



			I admit lots of people do it, that's why the golfing world has so many slicers who probably are consistent with their slice.
		
Click to expand...

I'd suggest that it's more often a sequencing issue - starting the downswing with the arms/hands! 



SocketRocket said:



			A flexed and stable back leg allows you to *stay grounded* and stable *encouraging retained angles* and *good leverage*.
		
Click to expand...

That's just gobbledeegook! 

Surely a straightened, but not locked (ie flexed, even if not bent), back leg is stable. And subsequent bending of it can provide the 'ground up' impetus that's desirable.

Btw. For those with a tendency to sway, restricting weight shift (while ensuring a turn/coil is performed) can be a good thing, providing the upper body doesn't persist on swaying - in either direction! 

Anyway, I have no obsession one way or the other - except against those who are obsessed with one way or the other! To me, it's what's right for the particular player and their circumstances/capabilities!

Oh and Phil Mickelson is another who straightens his back leg! http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/phil_mickelson_swing_sequence.html

On that note, I'm out!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			That's true, but a bit of a cop-out!

The reasoning is surely the same - And I believe that is what Gareth was asking in the OP! Doesn't that mean that either the 'world class players' have changed to have those straight back legs - so why was the change made? Or they always did it, so it wasn't as bad as made out to be as they progressed from juniors up to world class players!



I'd suggest that it's more often a sequencing issue - starting the downswing with the arms/hands! 



That's just gobbledeegook! 

Surely a straightened, but not locked (ie flexed, even if not bent), back leg is stable. And subsequent bending of it can provide the 'ground up' impetus that's desirable.

Btw. For those with a tendency to sway, restricting weight shift (while ensuring a turn/coil is performed) can be a good thing, providing the upper body doesn't persist on swaying - in either direction! 

Anyway, I have no obsession one way or the other - except against those who are obsessed with one way or the other! To me, it's what's right for the particular player and their circumstances/capabilities!

Oh and Phil Mickelson is another who straightens his back leg! http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/phil_mickelson_swing_sequence.html

On that note, I'm out!
		
Click to expand...

Your post is just confusing and contradictory!  Most world class players don't straighten out their back legs.

If you think Phil is straighetning his back leg in the backswing then I suggest a visit to Specsavers 

[video=youtube;ISYYkjiwzDk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISYYkjiwzDk[/video]


----------



## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			If you think Phil is straighetning his back leg in the backswing then I suggest a visit to Specsavers 

Click to expand...

Interesting. 

From the vid you posted....









It's actually impossible to tell what's going on from just the side view which is why those pics in the original post are misleading. To know what knee flex he has we need to know how the orientation of his leg changed ie has his leg simply rotated so the 'flex' appears hidden from a DTL view. In terms of general web garbage about legs straightening - the pic above would qualify in the yes camp as YES his trail leg is straighter than it was at address (moved backwards 5-6cm), thefore it is straightening (not STRAIGHTENED) and/or has lost some flex.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2015)

Whether it's straightened a little, straightening is a little complex for me.   I just stand by my opinion that a straight back leg in the backswing creates the wrong angles.

Unless you are a S&T type Golfer.


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is just confusing and contradictory!  Most world class players don't straighten out their back legs.

If you think Phil is straighetning his back leg in the backswing then I suggest a visit to Specsavers 

[video=youtube;ISYYkjiwzDk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISYYkjiwzDk[/video]
		
Click to expand...

I've never suggested 'most' world class players straighten their back legs. I merely suggest it's not something to get particularly obsessed with! That doesn't seem confusing, nor contradictory to me.

I believe that was Phil's 'changed' swing (as per Kostis's comment from 50 secs) prior to the tournament. Note there are no spectators etc.

Here's a comparison of the swing he actually used during that tournament (a few days later) and one from 5 years earlier. Both have a straight back leg - his tournament swing appears to be his 'old' swing - the one he won 3 majors with, including a couple of Masters.

So he certainly *has* swung with a straightened back leg. Wayne de F comments on several 'unique' aspects of Phil's swing, but doesn't mention his back leg, so doesn't seem too great an issue for him.

Specsavers won't be getting my custom for a while yet!

Btw. The exclusion of S&T players is another cop-out. Weight shift notwithstanding, they would still have the same, or very similar, issues with angles and turning/coiling as a 'weight-shifter'.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I've never suggested 'most' world class players straighten their back legs. I merely suggest it's not something to get particularly obsessed with! That doesn't seem confusing, nor contradictory to me.

I believe that was Phil's 'changed' swing (as per Kostis's comment from 50 secs) prior to the tournament. Note there are no spectators etc.

Here's a comparison of the swing he actually used during that tournament (a few days later) and one from 5 years earlier. Both have a straight back leg - his tournament swing appears to be his 'old' swing - the one he won 3 majors with, including a couple of Masters.

So he certainly *has* swung with a straightened back leg. Wayne de F comments on several 'unique' aspects of Phil's swing, but doesn't mention his back leg, so doesn't seem too great an issue for him.

Specsavers won't be getting my custom for a while yet!

Btw. The exclusion of S&T players is another cop-out. Weight shift notwithstanding, they would still have the same, or very similar, issues with angles and turning/coiling as a 'weight-shifter'.
		
Click to expand...

So you're not out?


----------



## One Planer (Jan 29, 2015)

Changing direction slightly.

The effect of straightening or not straightening the trail leg will have a knock on effect on how the hips move and turn through the swing.

One way more detrimental than the other when it comes to how the hips move?


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			So you're not out? 

Click to expand...

I naturally reserve the right to re-enter to reply to insults! Not something I normally need!



Gareth said:



			Changing direction slightly.

The effect of straightening or not straightening the trail leg will have a knock on effect on how the hips move and turn through the swing.

One way more detrimental than the other when it comes to how the hips move?
		
Click to expand...

Depends on the person and what movement of the hips (backward; forward etc) you are after. It's more likely to be restrictive than adding flexibility imo though - which may be part of why it's done.

I think you may be starting to build a swing 'out of spare parts'! That doesn't seem like a good idea to me! I believe the swing should be either created as a flowing entity (anew) or by tweaking particular areas of an existing one in order to iteratively improve it.


----------



## One Planer (Jan 29, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I naturally reserve the right to re-enter to reply to insults! Not something I normally need!



Depends on the person and what movement of the hips (backward; forward etc) you are after. It's more likely to be restrictive than adding flexibility imo though - which may be part of why it's done.

*I think you may be starting to build a swing 'out of spare parts'! That doesn't seem like a good idea to me!* I believe the swing should be either created as a flowing entity (anew) or by tweaking particular areas of an existing one in order to iteratively improve it.
		
Click to expand...

Not at all.

I'm just curious to see peoples' thoughts on the subject. Clearly from what I've read, there are differing schools of thought. Pro's and con's  for both

I'm just curious to hear both sides.

It's something my pro has me working on just now. I've had his views on the subject matter and found it interesting enough to post up on here for debate.


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2015)

Gareth said:



			Not at all.

I'm just curious to see peoples' thoughts on the subject. Clearly from what I've read, there are differing schools of thought. Pro's and con's  for both

I'm just curious to hear both sides.

It's something my pro has me working on just now. I've had his views on the subject matter and found it interesting enough to post up on here for debate.
		
Click to expand...

As I've mentioned elsewhere, he's the guy that should have the plan, so trust him - but make sure he knows your capabilities - or the lack of them! Don't let him try to get you to do things that your body is physically incapable of doing! I've seen/heard of that happening more than once!


----------



## JustOne (Jan 29, 2015)

All you need to know, doesn't matter if you're a regular swinger, a stack and tilter, or what you think should be going on with knee flex....... make sure this happens and you're on your way to hitting the ball with a better swing. Work the hips in this correct manner and the knee will do whatever it NATURALLY HAS TO, after all - you don't want to go forcing anything on your knee (they are very sensitive and prone to injury).

[video=youtube;WvOr5nNqYEw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvOr5nNqYEw[/video]


----------



## the_coach (Jan 31, 2015)

it is pretty true to say that you don't want the trail leg to 'lock out' at the knee. 
also if you sway to the right off the ball with the trail leg & hip, trail knee moving laterally away from target that will dramatically affect the golfers ability to make a sound efficient swing motion.

so would say as far as just looking at the trail knee, there are 2 no no's, no trail knee 'complete locking out' & no trail knee lateral move away from target.

you would want to retain some degree of flex range in the trail knee, to be able to have an efficient leg movement that can properly utilize ground pressure reactions & also provide stability & balance, plus allow a hip turn during the swing motion - a motion that needs to be both dynamic & balanced. how the feet, legs. hips (pelvis) move directly affect the upper body's ability to rotate efficiently.

a good elite amateur to top tour player will have a hip turn in the backswing that's approximately around 37Âº ('closed' to the 0Âº target line) at impact those same players hip turn/clearance at impact will be approximately around 53Âº('open' to the 0Âº target line) it will also be titled upwards left at around 14Âº. (hip clearance at impact in 'average' amateur is some 21Âº less at 32Âº with the upwards tilt being only some 4Âº)

you can look at a bunch of 'isolated parts' of a swing motion as they will have a bearing on how efficiently the swing works, but you always have to keep in mind they are part of a 'whole'. 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifesty...-pga-tour-players-target-linefront-view-.html


----------



## CMAC (Jan 31, 2015)

Gareth, if your right leg is at the top of your backswing you need to see a Chiropractor :lol:


for anything else I copy Rory:thup: he seems to know a wee bit and (so far) the results are beyond my expectations for a very old guy past his prime- roll on Summer


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2015)

CMAC said:



			Gareth, if your right leg is at the top of your backswing you need to see a Chiropractor :lol:


for anything else I copy Rory:thup: he seems to know a wee bit and (so far) the results are beyond my expectations for a very old guy past his prime- roll on Summer
		
Click to expand...

Almost certain that any guy (at least) older than about 18 who tries to replicate Rory's hip action is more than likely the one who will need a Chiropractor!


----------



## CMAC (Jan 31, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Almost certain that any guy (at least) older than about 18 who tries to replicate Rory's hip action is more than likely the one who will need a Chiropractor! 

Click to expand...

so far I've let my hair grow curly and had toothache, what else is there


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2015)

CMAC said:



			so far I've let my hair grow curly and had toothache, what else is there
		
Click to expand...

Are you following Rory or Tiger?! :rofl:

Either way, you need a top sports star for an 'other half'!


----------



## JustOne (Jan 31, 2015)

CMAC said:



			for anything else I copy Rory:thup: he seems to know a wee bit and (so far) the results are beyond my expectations for a very old guy past his prime- roll on Summer
		
Click to expand...

That's something we NEED to see on video... our very own forum McIlroy,.. can't wait for the Youtube link.....


----------



## CMAC (Jan 31, 2015)

JustOne said:



			That's something we NEED to see on video... our very own forum McIlroy,.. can't wait for the Youtube link.....
		
Click to expand...

you've skipped a post


----------

