# Do you use a yardage device



## JCW (Dec 16, 2012)

Yes or no , if yes , which one do you use and would you change for another make , i use a Garmin S5, GOOD BIT OF KIT , NO I WONT CHANGE 
:smirk:


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## wrighty1874 (Dec 16, 2012)

garmin 3 and I won't change. Very happy with it.


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## Imurg (Dec 16, 2012)

Bushnell V2 Laser.
Love it.
It stays.....Does everything I need it to.


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## pbrown7582 (Dec 16, 2012)

Yes skycaddie sgx, I'm happy despite the annual fee.


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## chrisd (Dec 16, 2012)

Garmin G3 good bit of kit - will I change?

Yes probably when a better one takes my fancy


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 16, 2012)

Imurg said:



			Bushnell V2 Laser.
Love it.
It stays.....Does everything I need it to.
		
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Wot he said...


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## Phil2511 (Dec 16, 2012)

Golf Buddy World Platinum. No downloads, no annual fees. Literally a dummies guide to yardage measuring lol. 

Also have a hillman rangefinder cos they were getting good reviews and great prices.


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## mattdeeks (Dec 16, 2012)

Skycaddie 2.5, won't be changing as it does everything I need and want.


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## bigslice (Dec 16, 2012)

yes, goplanet cheap as chips, if i had the dosh i would have the garmin approach G6 and if i really had dosh i would have a full time caddie


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## thecraw (Dec 16, 2012)

Snooper Shotsaver 400 laser.

Perfect.


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## macca64 (Dec 16, 2012)

no, don't see the point with my game.


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## chris661 (Dec 16, 2012)

Skycaddie 2.5 does everything I need but if palindromicbob would ever remember his laser so I could get a go with it I would be tempted to get one of them.


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## Mungoscorner (Dec 16, 2012)

150 yard posts,100 yard plates and my feet.
If i'm playing away then i buy a course planner.


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## thecraw (Dec 16, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			150 yard posts,100 yard plates and my feet.
If i'm playing away *then i buy a course planner*.
		
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I've never found an accurate one of these in my life.


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## Jon321 (Dec 16, 2012)

Garmin G6. Love it staying for along time


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## Lump (Dec 16, 2012)

Garmin S1 GPS watch. Works a treat but only when your ball goes the right distance. My distances have gone all funny with the colder weather.


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## Wayman (Dec 16, 2012)

bushnell v2 tour


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## CMAC (Dec 16, 2012)

Garmin S3- bought it today


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## Mungoscorner (Dec 16, 2012)

thecraw said:



			I've never found an accurate one of these in my life.
		
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Well at least i have something to blame a poor showing on mate.
"i played great,but the course planner was duff"


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## car.crash (Dec 16, 2012)

I've never used one, I love a gadget but not found the urge to buy one yet. Seen a few paid apps for the iPhone that say they do similar things but I'm happy to focus on hitting balls rather than have to focus on tech right now.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 16, 2012)

Mars100. Very basic but does what it needs to. Front middle and back... Won't change till more scoring clubs get better.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 16, 2012)

Sky caddie 5 but starting to play up so on the look out for another one. Definitely worth it in my opinion


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## Scottjd1 (Dec 16, 2012)

Imurg said:



			Bushnell V2 Laser.
Love it.
It stays.....Does everything I need it to.
		
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HawkeyeMS said:



			Wot he said...
		
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Wayman said:



			bushnell v2 tour
		
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Wise people on this forum you know.... :thup:


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## williamalex1 (Dec 16, 2012)

no , as most courses have disc/markers or posts at .200--150--100yrds to the front of greens and from the centre of the marker Benhard,  so if you can stay on the f/way no problem .the other week  i felt like slapping a 14 h/c playerwho was  using one of these aids from 50 yards when he only had 1 p/w or a s/w to pick from. i was grumpy again i know its getting near xmas ,no devices needed


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## bigslice (Dec 16, 2012)

Oddsocks said:



			Mars100. Very basic but does what it needs to. Front middle and back... Won't change till more scoring clubs get better.
		
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snap does was it says on the tin


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## Iaing (Dec 16, 2012)

I use a Garmin G3. It does everything I need.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 16, 2012)

Sky Caddie SG2.5, simple with front/middle/back but also like the ability to see yardages to specific hazards if needed. Knowing how far to a ditch for example is a handy bit of info especially at away courses. 

Won't change until it gives up the ghost.


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## Piece (Dec 16, 2012)

Garmin S1. Simple, effective, accurate.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 16, 2012)

mattdeeks said:



			Skycaddie 2.5, won't be changing as it does everything I need and want.
		
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ditto


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## tyke (Dec 16, 2012)

Piece said:



			Garmin S1. Simple, effective, accurate.
		
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Wot he said


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## Wolfman (Dec 16, 2012)

Garmin S3 Watch in black, superb and simple and always with me while playing !


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## Wolfman (Dec 16, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			Garmin S3- bought it today 

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Which one did you get black or white ?


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## brendy (Dec 16, 2012)

Nothing for me, I dont hit it inch perfect every time so its pointless. As long as I can figure out 100-150-200 Im happy.


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## Mungoscorner (Dec 16, 2012)

brendy said:



			Nothing for me, I dont hit it inch perfect every time so its pointless. As long as I can figure out 100-150-200 Im happy.
		
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Wot he said.


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## ventura (Dec 16, 2012)

Just yardage markers and guess work for me.

Although my guess work might not be very accurate! When I go to a football match the pitch looks bigger than it is, always think I'd need a driver to get from one end to the other when in reality it's only 100-130 yards!


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## Oddsocks (Dec 16, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			no , as most courses have disc/markers or posts at .200--150--100yrds to the front of greens and from the centre of the marker Benhard,  so if you can stay on the f/way no problem .the other week  i felt like slapping a 14 h/c playerwho was  using one of these aids from 50 yards when he only had 1 p/w or a s/w to pick from. i was grumpy again i know its getting near xmas ,no devices needed
		
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Played with a 9 capper recently who zapped every shot including chips from 20/30 feet..... Even some long puts:sbox:


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## gjbike (Dec 16, 2012)

Got sky caddie SGX don't mind the yearly fee and a Bushnell V2 Laser.


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## WideEyedFox (Dec 16, 2012)

Bushnell Tour V2.  Fantastic piece of kit that dropped a few chip shots off my game.

Find it handy as it is not course specific and you can use it to gauge hazard distances too for avoiding or carrying.


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## garyinderry (Dec 16, 2012)

they are ver handy when playing a course for the first time. i would only use one to see if i can carry a hazard. they can take some of the fun out of the game.

they are useful but some people couldnt find the 1st tee if they didnt have their gps !!


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## bladeplayer (Dec 16, 2012)

brendy said:



			Nothing for me, I dont hit it inch perfect every time so its pointless. As long as I can figure out 100-150-200 Im happy.
		
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I was this man , even went on record in the magazine saying this ,  but having used the garmin for some time , it helps alot


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## 6inchcup (Dec 16, 2012)

i use the one i have always used and it has never been far of all these years,my eyes and brain,if you cant judge the distance you should not be playing golf,how many on these pages can hit their irons to exactly the same distance shot after shot,i remember playing a friendly game with a new member who had a range finder and after his first drive took the thing out and started faffing about on the fairway,in a puzzled tone said its either a big 8 or an easy 7,i then showed him the 150 yd marker adjacent to his ball,"i never take notice of them" after he hit a thinned 8i into a bunker he decided it was a 7i but when asked he couldn't tell me how far he hit any of his clubs.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 16, 2012)

6inchcup said:



			i use the one i have always used and it has never been far of all these years,my eyes and brain,if you cant judge the distance you should not be playing golf,how many on these pages can hit their irons to exactly the same distance shot after shot,i remember playing a friendly game with a new member who had a range finder and after his first drive took the thing out and started faffing about on the fairway,in a puzzled tone said its either a big 8 or an easy 7,i then showed him the 150 yd marker adjacent to his ball,"i never take notice of them" after he hit a thinned 8i into a bunker he decided it was a 7i but when asked he couldn't tell me how far he hit any of his clubs.
		
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Strangely as you say your eyes and brain. 

I caddied for a young lad a few months back. He had a rangefinder. When the battery died mid round I started pacing shots from the 100 and 150yd markers and guessed the pin distances on the greens. 

He actually hit closer to pins on those distances than when he had the rangefinder. My pro dislikes rangefinders. He uses a GoofBuddy to get him distance for front, middle and backs of greens and that's it.


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## palindromicbob (Dec 16, 2012)

Shotmiser G500. Love the thing but had an issue with it at Murvagh where it failed to pick up GPS and when it did the yardages were off. Contacted the company and within 1 day they contacted me saying it would be looked into. A few weeks later I got an email with instruction about the process to re download the course which had since been remapped. Can't say anything to quick as I haven't been back since but if a certain person joins  I'll get plenty of opportunity. 

Usually carry a laser as back up or if I'm in doubt. Also handy for temp greens. The time Chris is referring to is the first time it had been off my bag in 3 months :0 and it would have been very useful that day.


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## upsidedown (Dec 16, 2012)

Pinseeker laser, about half price of a Bushnell .


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## bladeplayer (Dec 16, 2012)

6inchcup said:



			i use the one i have always used and it has never been far of all these years,my eyes and brain,if you cant judge the distance you should not be playing golf,how many on these pages can hit their irons to exactly the same distance shot after shot,.
		
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As per my earlier post i used to always use my eyes & brain , i have fair idea how far i hit each iron & i find i have more confidence knowing exact yardages , im using it a year and have dropped from 9 to 7 , would i have dropped them witout the DMD ? maybe so but mybe not ? it helps so il use it 

to say if you cant judge distance you shouldnt be playing golf is a terrible sweeping statement tho ... if you dont want one , dont use one


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## garyinderry (Dec 16, 2012)

there is no denying, the can help save you shots!  there is time ive been told a distance by someone using a gps and it made me choose a club id never though i  had to hit. they are handy when you are on the wrong fairway.  in fact, i should probably get one!


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2012)

A Bushnell, but not the V2... Doesn't get used often, only if I'm unsure of what I 'see' in front of me.


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## Imurg (Dec 16, 2012)

6inchcup said:



			i use the one i have always used and it has never been far of all these years,my eyes and brain,if you cant judge the distance you should not be playing golf,how many on these pages can hit their irons to exactly the same distance shot after shot
		
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When will people get it into their skulls that having a DMD of any description has nothing to do with hitting your clubs exactly the same distance every time. Nobody does that at out level. The DMD doesn't swing the club.
That doesn't stop you needing to know how far you need to hit it and that's all a DMD will tell you.
If you're standing on the 150 yard marker, you know it's 150 yards to the green but you're not going to hit your club the same distance every time so why bother knowing that it's 150 yards at all?

How do you know that the Course Yardage Markers are correct?
Is the flag at the front or back of the green if it's not shown in another way?
You need to know yardage and that's all DMD does.
It's not magic or Voodoo


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## palindromicbob (Dec 16, 2012)

6inchcup said:



			i use the one i have always used and it has never been far of all these years,my eyes and brain,if you cant judge the distance you should not be playing golf,how many on these pages can hit their irons to exactly the same distance shot after shot,
		
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I know I can't but I have a fair idea of my average yardages with a decent strike. DMD for me helps me have confidence in my club selection and remove one more thought from the fuzz that enters my head prior to a shot.


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## fundy (Dec 16, 2012)

Bushnell Tour Z6 laser (6x rather than 5x yet smaller and lighter than the V2 they all rave about  ). also own a Upro GPS but only gets used if its a course I dont know at all


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## spawn_ukuk (Dec 17, 2012)

Anyone ever used the Garmin S1 watch?


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## Mungoscorner (Dec 17, 2012)

Having read through all the posts on this thread,these devices seem to be very popular with the higher handicappers.I'm amazed i ever got my handicap the right side of 20 without the help of trackman,custom fitting,isotonic sports drinks,and of course yardage device's.Is it any wonder we cannot get around 18 holes in less than 5 hours.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Is it any wonder we cannot get around 18 holes in less than 5 hours.
		
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Speak for yourself. If I'm on that course more than 4hrs for our 4ball on a Saturday I'd be pretty annoyed about being held up.


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## palindromicbob (Dec 17, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Having read through all the posts on this thread,these devices seem to be very popular with the higher handicappers.I'm amazed i ever got my handicap the right side of 20 without the help of trackman,custom fitting,isotonic sports drinks,and of course yardage device's.Is it any wonder we cannot get around 18 holes in less than 5 hours.
		
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It's a hell of a lot quicker to glance at a GPS than to pace out a yardage. Long rounds are down to other reasons apart from DMD's.   On saying that lower handicappers I play with seem to get the most benefit out of my GPS. Primary reason I got it was I play a lot of different courses in the year and because of display method it really helps as it shows the layout.  

Have you ever thought that maybe the reason higher handicappers have them is because we tend to be newer to the game and this tech is readily available to us now when we are starting. Had I started 10 or 15 years ago might be a different story.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

The SLOWEST person in our club is a Cat 1 player. And gets his yardages from others. Oh and he is only 21 and pretty athletic from football.


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## Idlenorth1 (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm sure the skycaddie is a great piece of kit but to pay Â£30 a years is subs is a bit of a mickey take in my opinion
Ps, don't use any GPS device but haven rough idea how far I hit a club and work off the yardage markers (I am looking at the garmin g3 though)


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## palindromicbob (Dec 17, 2012)

based on input up to post #55 prior and based on handicap displayed and some tired and slightly tipsie maths. 

28 people responded they use a DMD. 21 display their HC in the sig. 1 undisplayed but I know his playing HC.  

Average HC ignoring those not displaying. 11.9
Average HC assuming those not displaying is 28. = 15.4

36.4% are 0 - 9.9 HC
50% are 10-18
remaining 13.6% are 19 or greater. 

God I'm bored.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

palindromicbob said:



			based on input up to post #55 prior and based on handicap displayed and some tired and slightly tipsie maths. 

28 people responded they use a DMD. 21 display their HC in the sig. 1 undisplayed but I know his playing HC.  

Average HC ignoring those not displaying. 11.9
Average HC assuming those not displaying is 28. = 15.4

36.4% are 0 - 9.9 HC
50% are 10-18
remaining 13.6% are 19 or greater. 

God I'm bored.
		
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Could you redo these stats by Category 1-4 please lol


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

Idlenorth1 said:



			I'm sure the skycaddie is a great piece of kit but to pay Â£30 a years is subs is a bit of a mickey take in my opinion
Ps, don't use any GPS device but haven rough idea how far I hit a club and work off the yardage markers (I am looking at the garmin g3 though)
		
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That's why I got a GolfBuddy. I was told they use satellites of/are owned by Garmin. Not confirmed myself but heard it.


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## the hants reaper (Dec 17, 2012)

I  have just read all the posts , lots use the DMD , to me its to take out the guest work on how far you have to the green , pin or to carry a bunker , pond etc etc  , a lot quickly then pacing it out , just a quick glance needed so it speeds up play, notink to do with how far you hit clubs or if you can hit a club the same distance each time , problem is the everyday golfer then thinks too much about it , myself if i have a pond to carry at say 140 and i hit a 8 iron 145 and there is no trouble long then its a 7 iron all day long , the low boys have an idea how far give or take a few yards they hit each club , my 9 iron is 135 , so anythink from 125 to 140 is a 9 iron , if its nearer 140 then i will go with 8 rather then trash a 9 , it does take the guest work out , i got garmin 3


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

I use a bushnell V2 for the last year and a half and its pretty good. 

We have yardage on the fairways evey 10 yards or so front and middle. I find its good for goinging straight at the flag as we have very big greens as the difference can be sometimes 10 or 15 yards difference.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			no , as most courses have disc/markers or posts at .200--150--100yrds to the front of greens and from the centre of the marker Benhard,  so if you can stay on the f/way no problem .the other week  i felt like slapping a 14 h/c playerwho was  using one of these aids from 50 yards when he only had 1 p/w or a s/w to pick from. i was grumpy again i know its getting near xmas ,no devices needed
		
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Oh thank the Lord - a fellow non-believer 

I thought I was alone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

Oddsocks said:



			Played with a 9 capper recently who zapped every shot including chips from 20/30 feet..... Even some long puts:sbox:
		
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Now that :sbox: me too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

bladeplayer said:



			As per my earlier post i used to always use my eyes & brain , i have fair idea how far i hit each iron & i find i have more confidence knowing exact yardages , im using it a year and have dropped from 9 to 7 , would i have dropped them witout the DMD ? maybe so but mybe not ? it helps so il use it 

to say if you cant judge distance you shouldnt be playing golf is a terrible sweeping statement tho ... if you dont want one , dont use one
		
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Absolutely really useful I'm sure for learning your yardages so yes - each to his or her own whether you use one or not.  

However due to competitive advantage provided (they wouldn't sell if they didn't give one and don't bother with the 'they save time' or 'club/ball technology' red herrings) they should be banned from being used in any club competition.  If not then in a competitive match both players should agree whether or not DMDs should be allowed in that match (though that sort of decision should be the responsibility of the club committee and not the players).

As said, eyes and brain to manage doubt and uncertainty.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			no , as most courses have disc/markers or posts at .200--150--100yrds to the front of greens and from the centre of the marker Benhard,  so if you can stay on the f/way no problem .the other week  i felt like slapping a 14 h/c playerwho was  using one of these aids from 50 yards when he only had 1 p/w or a s/w to pick from. i was grumpy again i know its getting near xmas ,no devices needed
		
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I use mine from 50-60 yds, that's almost when it is most useful and it doesn't matter how manner wedges you have, there is such a thing as 1/2 and 3/4 shots. On Saturday I had 3 times where I found myself between 50 and 70 yds from the pin, laser told me the yardage, I hit the shot close (same club for each shot) and holed the putt for par. It might have driven you mad, but it made me happy :ears:


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## Tiger (Dec 17, 2012)

Got a Shotmiser G500 great piece of kit if a little slow and only has sufficient battery for 18 holes. Thinking of maybe getting a laser in the future and judging by this thread there is a whole lotta love for the Bushnell V2. Need to win myself a few comps in the New Year methinks to add to the totaliser...


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## Ethan (Dec 17, 2012)

Yes. I have a Bushnell V2, but I previously had a Nikon 350 (until it was nicked) and think it was a better rangefinder.


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## bladeplayer (Dec 17, 2012)

Ya gota remember Its not the devices that cause delays or speeds things up tho,  its the person using it , if you use it correctly you will benifit from it and wont delay anyone , if you dont know how to use it properly you will just upset & delay others and probably confuse & frustrate yourself ,, 

If a guy is constantly leaving his bag or his trolley in the wrong place its not the bag or trolleys fault ..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I use mine from 50-60 yds, that's almost when it is most useful and it doesn't matter how manner wedges you have, there is such a thing as 1/2 and 3/4 shots. On Saturday I had 3 times where I found myself between 50 and 70 yds from the pin, laser told me the yardage, I hit the shot close (same club for each shot) and holed the putt for par. It might have driven you mad, but it made me happy :ears:
		
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So you'd be happy if in a medal or a match a fellow player or opponent paced the distance to the flag every time he had a 50-60yarder?  Chances are you'd end up having to let the group behind through and that would probably drive you mad.


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## Stuey01 (Dec 17, 2012)

Just got a Garmin S1 watch, used it for the first time on Sunday.  It's great, less than a second to glance at my wrist and I have front middle and back, all I want to know.
I can see how the yardage to hazard stuff would be good on new courses, but the convenience of the watch tipped the balance for me.


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## Matty (Dec 17, 2012)

Golf Buddy Tour Pro - or something like that.

Does the job fine and in fact I think I'm a faster player for it as there is less time spent hunting for course yardage markers, pacing distances from these to my ball and then deliberating which stick to pull from the bag.

Hasn't made me a better golfer mind you!!


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## brendy (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you'd be happy if in a medal or a match a fellow player or opponent paced the distance to the flag every time he had a 50-60yarder?  Chances are you'd end up having to let the group behind through and that would probably drive you mad.
		
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Everything under a hundred yards has a higher element of feel to it, does it matter if its 65 or 62 yards? we are amateur golfers and where that would make a difference generally means there is a must make carry over a bunker or water, middle of the green is the percentage shot.

I openly admit that I am a half traditionalist-half hypocrite, I wont use a hybrid, chipper nor DMD but do use a two ball putter, 460cc driver etc.
 I maintain though that a club golfer will get no real advantage out of a GPS device as too much else has a say in how far the ball travels and in what direction. Being "certain and confident" over a ball knowing 153 yards exactly wouldnt make me hit it any better than knowing it was a good 150 yards shot. For what its worth, when playing with out a device, I am never much more than a yard or two out in my estimations, I have seen first hand, guys using DMDs, selecting a club and still missing wildly. It wont put the ball in the hole for you so maybe the money should be spent on honing that part of the game instead??


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## One Planer (Dec 17, 2012)

brendy said:



			Everything under a hundred yards has a higher element of feel to it, does it matter if its 65 or 62 yards? we are amateur golfers and where that would make a difference generally means there is a must make carry over a bunker or water, middle of the green is the percentage shot.
I am a half hypocrite, I wont use a hybrid, chipper nor DMD but do use a two ball putter, 460cc driver etc. I maintain though that a club golfer will get no real advantage out of a GPS device as too much else has a say in how far the ball travels and in what direction. Being "certain and confident" over a ball knowing 153 yards exactly wouldnt make me hit it any better than knowing it was a good 150 yards shot.
		
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I like this :clap:

I'm of the same thought as Brendy in this.


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## Curls (Dec 17, 2012)

No device used yet but probably investing in the S3 after Christmas as I'll be playing away from home course a lot more next year


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 17, 2012)

Ethan said:



			Yes. I have a Bushnell V2, but I previously had a Nikon 350 (until it was nicked) and think it was a better rangefinder.
		
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I use a Nikon 350, great bit of kit. If you use a rangefinder it soon helps you work out rough distances that you can hit, easier to select clubs, doesn't take up any time. I'll use it from 50 yards too, helps decide how much of a swing I need, not exact science but certainly helps, wouldn't play without it on purpose. 

Sometimes when I switch between carry and cart bags, I forget it or leave it in the wrong bag, don't always get the same accuracy with my guesses, although yesterday as I got ready to zap I said "about 150", and zapped it exactly at 150......

If I have a choice, I use it.


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely really useful I'm sure for learning your yardages so yes - each to his or her own whether you use one or not.  

However due to competitive advantage provided (they wouldn't sell if they didn't give one and don't bother with the 'they save time' or 'club/ball technology' red herrings) they should be banned from being used in any club competition.  If not then in a competitive match both players should agree whether or not DMDs should be allowed in that match (though that sort of decision should be the responsibility of the club committee and not the players).

As said, eyes and brain to manage doubt and uncertainty.
		
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Why, iknow you have a real bee in your bunnet about them, but at the end of the day they are legal and approved by the R&A for use in comps.

Also they don't hit the shot for you, so knowing that its 100 yards and being able to hit it there are 2 differnt things


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you'd be happy if in a medal or a match a fellow player or opponent paced the distance to the flag every time he had a 50-60yarder?  Chances are you'd end up having to let the group behind through and that would probably drive you mad.
		
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That isn't even close to being the same thing, if you're gonna put an argument against DMDs together then at least make sure it makes sense. DMDs don't cause slow play.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			Why, iknow you have a real bee in your bunnet about them, but at the end of the day they are legal and approved by the R&A for use in comps.

Also they don't hit the shot for you, so knowing that its 100 yards and being able to hit it there are 2 differnt things

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Being picky, they aren't approved by the R&A for use in comps, they are approved if the club in question has a local rule permitting their use.


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## Mungoscorner (Dec 17, 2012)

brendy said:



			Everything under a hundred yards has a higher element of feel to it, does it matter if its 65 or 62 yards? we are amateur golfers and where that would make a difference generally means there is a must make carry over a bunker or water, middle of the green is the percentage shot.

I openly admit that I am a half traditionalist-half hypocrite, I wont use a hybrid, chipper nor DMD but do use a two ball putter, 460cc driver etc.
 I maintain though that a club golfer will get no real advantage out of a GPS device as too much else has a say in how far the ball travels and in what direction. Being "certain and confident" over a ball knowing 153 yards exactly wouldnt make me hit it any better than knowing it was a good 150 yards shot. For what its worth, when playing with out a device, I am never much more than a yard or two out in my estimations, I have seen first hand, guys using DMDs, selecting a club and still missing wildly. It wont put the ball in the hole for you so maybe the money should be spent on honing that part of the game instead??
		
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Spot on Brendy.


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## Robobum (Dec 17, 2012)

I've got a Busnell, I use it as often as I can. I am reliant on it to judge distance and have adopted that reliance because the info is correct and no longer a guess.

I still struggle to see the argument against them if I can obtain a factual bit of info as a starting point before continuing a process of guess work to include wind, slope, length of swing, speed of swing, quality of strike, spin.........blah blah

Each to their own though


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2012)

Really useful from under 100 yards.
And as for the eye and the brain being the best, how does that measue if you cant see the pot bunker from the tee or the stream running across the fairway just over the rise or if the flag is front, middle or back of a raised green ?
Each to their own though


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

Ethan said:



			Yes. I have a Bushnell V2, but I previously had a Nikon 350 (until it was nicked) and think it was a better rangefinder.
		
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That's interesting Ethan because I've got the Nikon as well. If I was to change I'd get a Bushnell as the only downside to the Nikon is it doesn't work very well in the rain, the laser seems to bounce off the moisture and give false readings.


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Being picky, they aren't approved by the R&A for use in comps, they are approved if the club in question has a local rule permitting their use.
		
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if the R&A did not approve them then the clubs could not have a local rule, no?


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 17, 2012)

I've never used one, but I see the merits in them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			That isn't even close to being the same thing, if you're gonna put an argument against DMDs together then at least make sure it makes sense. DMDs don't cause slow play.
		
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Sorry - you got what I said the wrong way round.  Use of DMDs is often cited as being something that can speed up play - which may or may not be the case - depends upon the user.  I was saying that if I was playing someone wjho was using a DMD, then for me to get the same sort of distance accuracy as my opponent I might choose to pace the distance from his ball to the flag.  That's what I'm saying would slow things up.  And wouldn't *that* make me popular.

And I'm not saying they should be banned from play - just that club committees should accept that they provide the user with an advantage and that for many players this is an unfair advatage and hence their use should not be allowed in club competitions. Simple.  Give me a reason why they *should* be allowed in competitions.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			if the R&A did not approve them then the clubs could not have a local rule, no?
		
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Technically yes, but the statement "They are approved by the R&A for use in comps" is incorrect as there has to be a local rule allowing them, I did say I was being picky


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Technically yes, but the statement "They are approved by the R&A for use in comps" is incorrect as there has to be a local rule allowing them, I did say I was being picky 

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Picky but correct - so the decision on whether or not they can be used for any particular competition or on any particular day is not the golfer's but the committee's.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I'm not saying they should be banned from play - just that club committees should accept that they provide the user with an advantage and that for many players this is an unfair advatage and hence their use should not be allowed in club competitions. Simple.  Give me a reason why they *should* be allowed in competitions.
		
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Have to disagree with this, there is no unfair advantage because DMD's are freely and readily available to anyone. OK, I accept the cost implications and some people might struggle to afford one but that is no different to someone having the latest whizzy straight down the middle 300 yard driver and someone else using a 10 year old one.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Really useful from under 100 yards.
And as for the eye and the brain being the best, how does that measue if you cant see the pot bunker from the tee or the stream running across the fairway just over the rise or if the flag is front, middle or back of a raised green ?
Each to their own though
		
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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2012)

Give me a reason why they should be allowed in competitions.
		
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 Give me a reason why electric trollies should be allowed in competitions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Have to disagree with this, there is no unfair advantage because DMD's are freely and readily available to anyone. OK, I accept the cost implications and some people might struggle to afford one but that is no different to someone having the latest whizzy straight down the middle 300 yard driver and someone else using a 10 year old one.
		
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Sorry - I'm not talking about use of clubs, balls, shoes, gloves, hats, ball cleaners, trolleys etc - I'm talking about DMDs.  Acceptance of the use of one does not in any way imply that the use of the other is acceptable.  

Every time I mention my opposition to use of DMDs in competitions I get arguments based upon use of other bits of kit raised - and other bits of kit are a complete irrelevance to use or otherwise of DMDs.  

And affordability is a complete irrelevance.


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## CMAC (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I'm not saying they should be banned from play - just that club committees should accept that *they provide the user with an advantage* and that for many players *this is an unfair advatage* and hence their use should not be allowed in club competitions. Simple.  Give me a reason why they *should* be allowed in competitions.
		
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I don't see how it is unfair as the yardages are a matter of fact and public knowledge available to anyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Give me a reason why electric trollies should be allowed in competitions.
		
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Why?  Don't get the relevance to DMDs


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Technically yes, but the statement "They are approved by the R&A for use in comps" is incorrect as there has to be a local rule allowing them, I did say I was being picky 

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then in that case i'm technically correct the R &A have approved there use, they have just allowed the club to have the ultimate say.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I'm not talking about use of clubs, balls, shoes, gloves, hats, ball cleaners, trolleys etc - I'm talking about DMDs.  Acceptance of the use of one does not in any way imply that the use of the other is acceptable.  

Every time I mention my opposition to use of DMDs in competitions I get arguments based upon use of other bits of kit raised - and other bits of kit are a complete irrelevance to use or otherwise of DMDs.  

And affordability is a complete irrelevance.
		
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I don't follow your argument, everything you list is a piece of golf equipment, just like a DMD. Times change and so does equipment. Go back to the origins of golf and there weren't even tee pegs yet they are now essential. In time I have no doubt that DMD's will be as well.


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## joma1108 (Dec 17, 2012)

Skycaddie SGXw Wifi option save so much @rseing around when adding courses, price y but you get what you pay for i guess
No intention of changing as it was pricey and wife would kill me


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - you got what I said the wrong way round.  Use of DMDs is often cited as being something that can speed up play - which may or may not be the case - depends upon the user.  I was saying that if I was playing someone wjho was using a DMD, then for me to get the same sort of distance accuracy as my opponent I might choose to pace the distance from his ball to the flag.  That's what I'm saying would slow things up.  And wouldn't *that* make me popular.

And I'm not saying they should be banned from play - just that club committees should accept that they provide the user with an advantage and that for many players this is an unfair advatage and hence their use should not be allowed in club competitions. Simple.  Give me a reason why they *should* be allowed in competitions.
		
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OK, I'm with you now, yes that would make you unpopular but if you are that concerned about distance, buy a DMD . 

I don't see how the use of DMDs gives some people an unfair advantage, if there is a local rule, everyone is allowed one, if a person chooses not to buy one that's up to them. Besides, the sharing of distance information is not considered as advice so if one person in your group had a DMD then he could give everyone information from it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			I don't see how it is unfair as the yardages are a matter of fact and public knowledge available to anyone.
		
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No they are not - on any day to get a yardage from your ball to the flag equivalent to that provided by a DMD you would have to pace it out.  And anyway if I were to accept that they *are* freely available then what point a DMD - so no disadvantage not using one in a competition.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			then in that case i'm technically correct the R &A have approved there use, they have just allowed the club to have the ultimate say.
		
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Actually no you're not, under the rules of golf, DMDs are banned for use in competition. Committee's are however allowed to permit them under local rule. The R&A say...

"The use of distance measuring devices during a stipulated round remains contrary to the Rules of Golf â€“ the penalty being disqualification under Rule 14-3 (Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment). However, since January 2006, a Committee can permit the use of some such devices via a Local Rule."


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## chrisd (Dec 17, 2012)

It's so sad that threads on DMD's always decend into the utter nonsense of "golf morals" the fact is that they are allowed at the great majority of clubs and I, for one, wouldn't want to be a member at a club where the "committee" are so pompous that they wouldn't make the necessary local rule to permit their use.

Basically it's very simple - the yardage to a green/bunker/ ditch etc etc is a matter of fact and you can use a book or pace it out to obtain the information, the DMD just does it instantly for you. If you are capable of guestimating the yardage - great, but I am not and rather than buy poor yardage books or spend all morning pacing up and down and wasting time I prefer to embrace the technology that the R and A are quite happy to sanction and get on with my game. 

I don't believe in the expression "spirit of the rules" as the rules of golf are specific, but I do believe in the "spirit of the game" and the use of my Garmin or Busnell don't, in my opinion, conflict with this in any way. No one is forced to buy a device or use one and no one is barred - couldn't be better!


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

joma1108 said:



			Skycaddie SGXw Wifi option save so much @rseing around when adding courses, price y but you get what you pay for i guess
No intention of changing as it was pricey and wife would kill me
		
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How much are these? 

I got the GolfBuddy as that's what my pro shop sells. 
No annual fees and has over 44,000 courses installed. Just switch it on in the car park of the course you are at and switch it on and walk to the tee. It does everything else.


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## BTatHome (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No they are not - on any day to get a yardage from your ball to the flag equivalent to that provided by a DMD you would have to pace it out.  And anyway if I were to accept that they *are* freely available then what point a DMD - so no disadvantage not using one in a competition.
		
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?????


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

chrisd said:



			It's so sad that threads on DMD's always decend into the utter nonsense of "golf morals" the fact is that they are allowed at the great majority of clubs and I, for one, wouldn't want to be a member at a club where the "committee" are so pompous that they wouldn't make the necessary local rule to permit their use.

Basically it's very simple - the yardage to a green/bunker/ ditch etc etc is a matter of fact and you can use a book or pace it out to obtain the information, the DMD just does it instantly for you. If you are capable of guestimating the yardage - great, but I am not and rather than buy poor yardage books or spend all morning pacing up and down and wasting time I prefer to embrace the technology that the R and A are quite happy to sanction and get on with my game. 

I don't believe in the expression "spirit of the rules" as the rules of golf are specific, but I do believe in the "spirit of the game" and the use of my Garmin or Busnell don't, in my opinion, conflict with this in any way. No one is forced to buy a device or use one and no one is barred - couldn't be better!
		
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Well in my opinion they conflict with the spirit of a level playing field when distance is anunceertainty we al;l have to deal with and that is a key part of the game.  You are rather relying on the goodwill of an opponent to not go pacing out yardages.


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## Scottjd1 (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well in my opinion they conflict with the spirit of a level playing field when distance is anunceertainty we al;l have to deal with and that is a key part of the game.  You are rather relying on the goodwill of an opponent to not go pacing out yardages.
		
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Do you accept that some of us have a keener eye than others, so can judge distances/depth perception with a degree of accuracy.

I, like Chris cannot do this reliably and I would look at a yardage marker and the pin and think, 110 to the bunker - 140 to pin, and my Bushnell tells me 125 bunker 150 pin in probably under 5 seconds.

Pleased for you that you can tell this information without any help, maybe if you couldnt you would have a different view.


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## Stuey01 (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't really see it as any different to getting a yardage from a well informed caddy with a dog-eared yardage book.  It just makes that level of information available to mere mortals. 
Or do people object to caddies too?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well in my opinion they conflict with the spirit of a level playing field when distance is anunceertainty we al;l have to deal with and that is a key part of the game.  You are rather relying on the goodwill of an opponent to not go pacing out yardages.
		
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Distance isn't an uncertainty though is it. There are course yardage markers, course planners and in some cases pin position sheets. Many courses have yardages on every sprinkler head, some courses indicate the flag position using different coloured flags. On par 3s there is a yardage marker right next to the tee - shall we take all that away as well?

The pros have coloured markers in the fairway\yardage books created using laser range finders which give them exact yardages from pretty much wherever they are on the course, they know exactly how far the pin is cut onto the green, how big the plateau is that the pin is cut on, how far right of the pin the slope that takes the ball down to the hole is.

We don't have the benefit of caddies to map the course for us and over time developments have been made to give us as accurate distance information as is achievable on a given course. Range finders are just the next step in yardage information. What is the point knowing you can hit a 7i 150yds if you don't know when you're 150yds away? (What is the point even knowing it's a 7i? Besides, you still have to judge the wind, understand how much spin (or not) you normally get, decide if you want to leave yourself an uphill putt etc etc.

The skill of golf isn't being able to guess the yardage, it's about being able to hit the ball that yardage consistently.

DMDs don't make an un-level playing field, if they did, people using DMDs would always win, but they don't, I would always hit every green from 150yds and in, but  I don't. Distance information is available in many forms, DMDs are just one of these forms.


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Actually no you're not, under the rules of golf, DMDs are banned for use in competition. Committee's are however allowed to permit them under local rule. The R&A say...

"The use of distance measuring devices during a stipulated round remains contrary to the Rules of Golf â€“ the penalty being disqualification under Rule 14-3 (Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment). However, since January 2006, a Committee can permit the use of some such devices via a Local Rule."
		
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so i one post im tech right then not?

So what you are saying is that the R&A donâ€™t allow them but club committees do, right?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			So what you are saying is that the R&A donâ€™t allow them but club committees do, right?
		
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Basically yes. 

I play in lots of open competitions and I've yet to come across one where DMD's are forbidden.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well in my opinion they conflict with the spirit of a level playing field when distance is anunceertainty we al;l have to deal with and that is a key part of the game.  You are rather relying on the goodwill of an opponent to not go pacing out yardages.
		
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Yardage information is all over the course, DMDs just give you accurate infomation quickly. Would you agree with taking away the on course markers or the numbers on Par 3 tee boxes?

The skill of golf isn't guessing the yardage, it's about hitting the ball the right yardage. There's no point knowing you hit a 7i 150yds if you don't know where 150yds is, heck, there's no point even knowing it's a 7i.

Caddies give the pro's distances they have measured mostly using DMDs, allowing us to use them just gives us the same information. If it were an unfair playing field, people with DMDs would always win, but they don't.



This post or something similar may appear twice as I posted it once and it never appeared


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

R&A / USGA Joint Statement on Electronic Devices, Including Distance-Measuring Devices

Introduction 

As the governing authorities for the Rules of Golf, R&A Rules Limited (â€œThe R&Aâ€) and the United States Golf Association (â€œUSGAâ€) issued a â€˜Joint Statement of Principlesâ€™ on the Rules concerning golf equipment in May 2002. These principles continue to be relevant to the game and have proved invaluable in guiding the governing authoritiesâ€™ actions since their publication seven years ago. 

Since that time, the effects of advancing equipment technology on the playing of the game have spread beyond golf clubs and golf balls to electronic devices, especially distancemeasuring devices. The R&A and USGA are aware that this subject has attracted wideranging comment and a number of conflicting views. History has proved that it is difficult, if not impossible, to foresee the developments in golf-related equipment which advancing technology will deliver. It is of the greatest importance to golfâ€™s continuing appeal that such advances are judged against clearly articulated principles that are designed to preserve the integrity of the sport. 

Distance Information 

In an historical context, the game has seen progressive developments in the means by which distance information is available to golfers. From the days when selecting a club was a matter of human judgement, the use of yardage books and hole location sheets and reference to oncourse markings has increased significantly. Most recently, the use of distance-measuring devices has become more widespread. 

The R&A and USGA first allowed the use of distance-measuring devices in January 2006. Prior to this, while the use of yardage books was allowed, the use of distance-measuring devices was prohibited by Rule 14-3. The change introduced in 2006 permitted the committee in charge of a competition or course to introduce a Local Rule allowing distancemeasuring devices. A very important proviso of this permission is that the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature. 

The Rules and their Purpose 

While accepting this development in the provision of distance information, The R&A and USGA will remain vigilant when considering the Rules on distance-measuring devices. As with the equipment Rules, the purpose of these Rules is to protect golfâ€™s best traditions, to prevent an over-reliance on technological advances rather than skill, and to ensure that skill is the dominant element of success throughout the game. Permitting the use of a measuring device to provide the same information that can be obtained through use of a yardage book or on-course markings is not considered to diminish the skill level required to play the game. 

The R&A and USGA believe that the current practice of allowing distance-measuring devices by Local Rule remains appropriate. In the current circumstances, The R&A and USGA are not advocating that this practice should be changed and neither The R&A nor USGA plan to introduce the Local Rule at any of their championships. 

A Clarification of the Rules 

The emergence of multi-functional devices that can provide additional information to golfers (that could, for example, further help the golfer to determine how to make his next stroke or that could otherwise affect his playing of the game) is a relatively new development. For the avoidance of doubt, the governing bodies do not believe that it is necessary or appropriate for the Rules of Golf to allow all such devices. The following points clarify how the Rules will be applied: 

1. Distance-measuring devices (i.e. devices whose primary function is to measure distance) may continue to be used only if the Local Rule is in effect. 

2. When the Local Rule is in effect, distance-measuring devices must be limited to measuring distance only. The use of a distance-measuring device would constitute a breach of the Rules if: 
â€¢The device has the capability of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play (e.g. wind speed, gradient, temperature, etc), or; 
â€¢The device has some other non-conforming feature, including, but not limited to, recommendations that might assist the player in making a stroke or in his play, such as club selection, type of shot to be played (e.g. punch shot, pitch and run, etc.), or green reading (i.e. a recommended line of putt), or other advice-related matters. However, it is permissible to use such a device, during a stipulated round, to access distance information from previous rounds that has been processed prior to the commencement of the current round (e.g. a chart of all club yardages), or; 
â€¢The device has the capability to assist in calculating the effective distance between two points (i.e. distance after considering gradient, wind speed and/or direction, temperature or other environmental factors). 

There would be a breach of the Rules even if all of the above features can be switched off or disengaged, and in fact are switched off or disengaged. 

3. Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e. devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows: 
â€¢The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g. as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club / course regulations and the Rules on accessing advice-related matters â€“ see Decision 14-3/16. 
â€¢When the Local Rule is in effect, a distance-measuring application may be used, provided the specific application is restricted to â€œdistance onlyâ€ and the device does not have any other â€œnon-conformingâ€ features. This is the case even if these other features are not being used. As above, the Rules on advice-related communications (including the use of the internet) still apply. 

Conclusion 

The R&A and USGA have no intention to permit the use of electronic devices to go beyond the current Rules and interpretations. This means that distance-measuring devices and applications will be limited to distance information only. If a device that is being used for distance-measuring purposes has any additional features, all such features must conform to the Rules of Golf. 

All manufacturers of distance-measuring products are encouraged to submit their devices or applications to the appropriate governing body for a ruling.


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## full_throttle (Dec 17, 2012)

JCW said:



			Yes or no , if yes , which one do you use and would you change for another make :smirk:
		
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Skycaddie 3.5

If I change it would be for a sgx or sg5, does exactly as it says on the tin.

OK there is a subscription charge but I'm happy to pay that as so far there isn't one course I haven't been able to download

tried the garmin laser and it's no good for me as i cant hold the damn thing level long enough to get a reading...lol


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Basically yes. 

I play in lots of open competitions and I've yet to come across one where DMD's are forbidden.
		
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but id the R&A had not made this decision, clubs would not be able to just make a local rule themselves, yes?


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## elliottlale (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't currently own one, I did own a range finder, a TM 1500, was really good, but I sold it, think I might buy the garmin, s1 or maybe s3. Double the price, but doubt its twice as good!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2012)

joma1108 said:



			Skycaddie SGXw Wifi option save so much @rseing around when adding courses, price y but you get what you pay for i guess
No intention of changing as it was pricey and wife would kill me
		
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I've got a non wifi SGX and to be honest I don't find the adding of courses that much of a faff. Possibly because I don't play that many new ones and the 15 or so I play are always stored on there.  I've heard it's a pain navigating the new SGXw as they have done away with the joy stick thing haven't they?  Is yours easy to navigate through on the course?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			but id the R&A had not made this decision, clubs would not be able to just make a local rule themselves, yes?
		
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No idea mate, I don't really understand that side of things


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## brendy (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The skill of golf isn't being able to guess the yardage, it's about being able to hit the ball that yardage consistently.

DMDs don't make an un-level playing field, if they did, people using DMDs would always win, but they don't, I would always hit every green from 150yds and in, but  I don't. Distance information is available in many forms, DMDs are just one of these forms.
		
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The game of golf is the all encompassing task of getting the ball from the teeing area into the hole, this does include working out distance, when the game was invented DMDs didnt exist so it was a real part of the game. I dont believe they are an essential part of the game. 
If you want to use them, go for it but I honestly think the accomplishment of playing well is slightly diminished when using them as you are removing a small element of the sport.


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## Robobum (Dec 17, 2012)

Intersting to see an argument citing "level playing field" but then discriminate against people with less than perfect eyesight, unable to judge distance by eye.

I'm okay with "cheating" my way round with a range finder.


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## bobmac (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm okay with "cheating" my way round with a range finder.
		
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As long as you dont use those lines on the ball to aim yourself. Ewen Murray hates that :rofl:


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			so i one post im tech right then not?

So what you are saying is that the R&A donâ€™t allow them but club committees do, right?
		
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I told you I was being picky  as usual for the R&A, they make things for complicated than they should or need to be. Why they don't say they are permitted as long as there is a local rule I don't know but the official line is DMDs contravene the rules of golf - bizarre


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I told you I was being picky  as usual for the R&A, they make things for complicated than they should or need to be. Why they don't say they are permitted as long as there is a local rule I don't know but the official line is DMDs contravene the rules of golf - bizarre
		
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I trien to post the R&A/USGA statement on DMD's but it went to a mod and never seen again.

But by the look of that what they are saying is they allow them by local rule that way its no allowed in all comps, Pro, etc.

Clubs can't just make there own local rules, so the R&A had some imput in that dec.


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## Captain_Black (Dec 17, 2012)

I use a Garmin S1 watch, it tells me all I need to know & is deadly accurate.


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## Robobum (Dec 17, 2012)

bobmac said:



			As long as you dont use those lines on the ball to aim yourself. Ewen Murray hates that :rofl:
		
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If only I could afford a caddy to line me up too Bob!!!


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## Dodger (Dec 17, 2012)

Skycaddie 2.5 that does everything I want it to do.

The biggest thing for me is it backs up what you should be hitting several times during a round.

I have lost count the number of times I have say 153 to the middle and the pin is middle and I have hit a 9 iron in pin high and 2 holes later I am confronted with the same yardage give or take a yard or 2.......it makes the choice so easy.

Like wise if you have ten yards more or less than the 153 makes the choice easier.

I now actually find I work more from the back of the green yardage so if it is 160 to back I know depending on wind taht I can't hit x club over the green so I tend to work back from their.

I am still,however, pish at the game.:lol:


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## Scottjd1 (Dec 17, 2012)

brendy said:



			If you want to use them, go for it but I honestly think the accomplishment of playing well is slightly diminished when using them as you are removing a small element of the sport.
		
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Really, are you serious???


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## thecraw (Dec 17, 2012)

Ethan said:



			Yes. I have a Bushnell V2, but I previously had a Nikon 350 (until it was nicked) and think it was a better rangefinder.
		
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My mate has the Nikon and swears by it. My other mate has the Bushnell V2 and thinks my Snooper is better made and better quality.

I'm happy with mine. Tried a couple of cheaper models including the Hillman and it was no contest.


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## garyinderry (Dec 17, 2012)

I wouldn' Shed a tear if they were banned. They are a great piece of technology no doubt. I dont mind people using them but as brendy put so well, you take some of the original fun out of the game. If you use it for the majority of your shots then thats when i think it becomes a problem.

My home course is well marked out with distance markers. I know that course so well that i would never need one there. I played a course recently that wasnt well marked out and to be honest i felt completly lost. I really could have used a gps that day.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 17, 2012)

The old DMD is the work of the devil debate. It is simple in my eyes. DMD's are there and can be used (agreed that its subject to a local rule in comps). If you think they are the antithesis of everything golf stands for then don't use them. If not and you feel they will be a help get one (budget allowing). There is no right or wrong answer and its about freedom of choice.


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## brendy (Dec 17, 2012)

Scottjd1 said:



			Really, are you serious??? 

Click to expand...

I think so, just my personal opinion. I dont see it as cheating, to be clear, just simplifying the game slightly.Much in the same way that if someone With the same handicap as myself matched my score round the course using hickory shafts, I would see their achievement as a bigger deal. Some wont see it like that.


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## AuburnWarrior (Dec 17, 2012)

I use a Callaway uPro and it's a very good bit of kit.
When funds permit, I'll be after a laser though.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

brendy said:



			The game of golf is the all encompassing task of getting the ball from the teeing area into the hole, this does include working out distance, when the game was invented DMDs didnt exist so it was a real part of the game. I dont believe they are an essential part of the game. 
If you want to use them, go for it but I honestly think the accomplishment of playing well is slightly diminished when using them as you are removing a small element of the sport.
		
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OK, so shall we remove the yardage markers from the course as well? Is the feat of getting a birdie on a par 3 diminished because of the helpful sign that told you how long the hole was? I don't think they're essential, but I also don't see how they are taking away any skill or unlevelling the playing field.

Giving you a yardage on a sprinkler head that you can pace from is the same thing as giving you a DMD?


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## Dodger (Dec 17, 2012)

brendy said:



			I think so, just my personal opinion. I dont see it as cheating, to be clear, just simplifying the game slightly.Much in the same way that if someone With the same handicap as myself matched my score round the course using hickory shafts, I would see their achievement as a bigger deal. Some wont see it like that.
		
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I bet you don't use a Sharwood sauce when making a Ruby either.

Each to their own.


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## garyinderry (Dec 17, 2012)

brendy said:



			I think so, just my personal opinion. I dont see it as cheating, to be clear, just simplifying the game slightly.Much in the same way that if someone With the same handicap as myself matched my score round the course using hickory shafts, I would see their achievement as a bigger deal. Some wont see it like that.
		
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I agree with you in some respect. I havnr played bangor but i would imagine it is well laid out and the distances to the green clearly marked out. This is not the case with alot of clubs.


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## brendy (Dec 17, 2012)

I think each hole needs a marker on the teebox, that is a given. Fairway markers are fine to as they are rough guides and you can get a pretty good idea of yardage without using digital devices. If you miss the fairway then you should be penalised, I have yet to see yardage discs in the munchies.
I think the key here is that you are being given information that a certain degree of which should be determined by skill.



HawkeyeMS said:



			OK, so shall we remove the yardage markers from the course as well? Is the feat of getting a birdie on a par 3 diminished because of the helpful sign that told you how long the hole was? I don't think they're essential, but I also don't see how they are taking away any skill or unlevelling the playing field.

Giving you a yardage on a sprinkler head that you can pace from is the same thing as giving you a DMD?
		
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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

Dodger said:



			I bet you don't use a Sharwood sauce when making a Ruby either.

Each to their own.
		
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Or soft toilet paper


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## brendy (Dec 17, 2012)

More of a sweet and sour man  but yea, world would be boring if we all were the same.


Dodger said:



			I bet you don't use a Sharwood sauce when making a Ruby either.

Each to their own.
		
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## palindromicbob (Dec 17, 2012)

Phil2511 said:



			Could you redo these stats by Category 1-4 please lol
		
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Challenge accepted.  :fore::lol:

48 people state they use one.

12 don't have handicap in their sig and 2 are unofficial so reduce the field to 34. Where playing handicaps are used they don't straddle the boundaries between cats so no worries there. 

Cat 1 (0.1-5.4) = 14.7% (5)
Cat 2 (5.5-12.4) = 50% (17)
Cat 3 (12.5-20.4) = 14.7% (5)
Cat 4 (20.5-28) = 20.6% (7)

edit (whoops forgot a person)


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## duncan mackie (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well in my opinion they conflict with the spirit of a level playing field when distance is anunceertainty we al;l have to deal with and that is a key part of the game.
		
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this is a fundamental flaw in your argument (as presented) and to quote the ruling bodies "Permitting the use of a measuring device to provide the same information that can be obtained through use of a yardage book or on-course markings is not considered to diminish the skill level required to play the game. "

so let's move on to the next part of your argument against DMDs; that they create an unfair advantage to the player that as one. I would suggest that exactly the opposite applies! I will explain why - 
1. in the absence of any written yardage information if you and I met on a course you hadn't played before, and I have played it 1,000 times, I have a huge advantage that you cannot, by your argument, counter. So for the lack of information that assists the application of your golfing skill it becomes an unfair match.
2. we are drawn to play a neutral course in a match, and having a lot more time than you I make a trip over and pace out/record all the appropriate distances on the course. My application of time has gained me an advantage you cannot match.
3. same place and venue, being richer than you I employ a caddie who knows all............again I now have an advantage.

In all 3 cases you could push 'start' on your DMD and 'level the playing field (apart from some caddie factors )

The parallel to an electric trolley, better (more expensive) golf balls, new wedges every round, monthly re-gripping of clubs, right through to the best shoes and waterproofs, is also valid in my view - they are all a matter of choice but to feel that an opponent has an 'unfair' advantage because they are better prepared doesn't really work. You can't set the barriers in any of these areas - the ruling bodies do, including committes as you point out. When the above factors are pointed out most committees realise that it's by not permitting the use of DMDs that they are, themselves, contributing to an unfair environment at their club and, for those doing it to retain 'home advantage' it is they that are at odds with 'spirit of the game' elements; not everyone else!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2012)

I dont use them and dont mind others using them.    People I know that have them hardly ever seem to use them anymore, bit like gym membership.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

palindromicbob said:



			Challenge accepted.  :fore::lol:

48 people state they use one.

12 don't have handicap in their sig and 2 are unofficial so reduce the field to 34. Where playing handicaps are used they don't straddle the boundaries between cats so no worries there. 

Cat 1 (0.1-5.4) = 14.7% (5)
Cat 2 (5.5-12.4) = 50% (17)
Cat 3 (12.5-20.4) = 14.7% (5)
Cat 4 (20.5-28) = 20.6% (7)

edit (whoops forgot a person)
		
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You're the man Bob lol


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			People I know that have them hardly ever seem to use them anymore
		
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Are these people playing the same course every week or travelling around other courses? I can understand familiarity with your home course reducing the need for a DMD.


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## G1BB0 (Dec 17, 2012)

I own a Garmin G3 that will be for sale later tonight, reason.... I actually prefer using strokesavers/yardage markers! I now know my home course backwards and only the odd away day when it comes in handy and as most of them are on quality courses I am sure yardage markers/strokesavers will be good enough 

if I was to purchase at a later date then it would be an s1 in conjunction with a range finder. Off 22 h/c I dont need either right now as I reckon I can probably hit a green spot on 150yds + away 2/10 times at best!


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2012)

He's seen something on eBay^^^^^^. Lol


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Are these people playing the same course every week or travelling around other courses? I can understand familiarity with your home course reducing the need for a DMD.
		
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I have to say, i use mine just as much around my home course as i would away from home, despite the fact we have yardages on the sprinkler heads pretty much every 10 yards from 270 yards out. 

my reasoning is we have quite large greens and for me, who's eyesight is not the best i struggle with judging distance.

if push came to shove, i prob could do without at home, but i still have to hit the ball the req distance, not the dmd.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

Scottjd1 said:



			Really, are you serious??? 

Click to expand...

Yes - I think he is absolutely serious and absolutely right.


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## garyinderry (Dec 17, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			despite the fact we have yardages on the sprinkler heads pretty much every 10 yards from 270 yards out. 

.
		
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really no need for one if you have markers every 10 yards.


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## joe nustedt (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't use one out of preference.  Buying a course guide from the pro shop and using this to work out distances is part of the game for me, although have absolutely no problem with others using them. 

That being said, it's amazing how many golf courses I visit which have run out of course guides and are waiting for new ones to be printed...  :angry:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

Sorry guys and gals - whilst I sympathise - I'm struggling with a rationale that says one reason to allow DMDs* in a competition* is that some folks eyes ain't so good and/or distance judgement isn't great.  My upper arms ache quite a lot these days - sometimes to the extent that my ability to swing the club is impaired. And on my bad days I don't score so well - but I have to get on with it.  

Still haven't heard a really good reason 'pro' DMDs in club competitions (I keep stressing club comps as I am absolutely *not *against them for casual and practice play).  Yes OK - the R&A have their view - committees can permit their use - but none of that is a good reason to allow them in a comp when not all have, or can have, use of one - even if they wanted.  

It is all very well for the R&A to say that the same information can be gleaned from yardage charts and on-course markings.  Plain fact is that we all know that this is only partly true - and the R&A will know that.  The only way a player can get the same yardage information as is provided by a DMD is by working out (by pacing etc) their position relative to a yardage marker on the course or on yardage chart, and if playing to a green and pin placement diagrams are not provided (rare I'd say) by walking to the green and working out where the flag is relative to the datum point on the green.  Yes - sounds excessive but is factually the only way.  Do we want playes doing that?  Of course not.  But nothing stopping me doing it other than the ire of my partners and following players.  

But look - I don't have to justify why I think they should be banned from club comps - the R&A says they are illegal!  Users of DMDs have to make their case as to why they should be *allowed *to use them.  However I do not hold my breath and will, as usual with this matter, have to shrug my shoulders - walk off - and maybe kick the cat (that is if I judge distance to the cat correctly and don't do a fresh air swing of my foot)


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry guys and gals - whilst I sympathise - I'm struggling with a rationale that says one reason to allow DMDs* in a competition* is that some folks eyes ain't so good and/or distance judgement isn't great.  My upper arms ache quite a lot these days - sometimes to the extent that my ability to swing the club is impaired. And on my bad days I don't score so well - but I have to get on with it.  

Still haven't heard a really good reason 'pro' DMDs in club competitions (I keep stressing club comps as I am absolutely *not *against them for casual and practice play).  Yes OK - the R&A have their view - committees can permit their use - but none of that is a good reason to allow them in a comp when not all have, or can have, use of one - even if they wanted.  

It is all very well for the R&A to say that the same information can be gleaned from yardage charts and on-course markings.  Plain fact is that we all know that this is only partly true - and the R&A will know that.  The only way a player can get the same yardage information as is provided by a DMD is by working out (by pacing etc) their position relative to a yardage marker on the course or on yardage chart, and if playing to a green and pin placement diagrams are not provided (rare I'd say) by walking to the green and working out where the flag is relative to the datum point on the green.  Yes - sounds excessive but is factually the only way.  Do we want playes doing that?  Of course not.  But nothing stopping me doing it other than the ire of my partners and following players.  

But look - I don't have to justify why I think they should be banned from club comps - the R&A says they are illegal!  Users of DMDs have to make their case as to why they should be *allowed *to use them.  However I do not hold my breath and will, as usual with this matter, have to shrug my shoulders - walk off - and maybe kick the cat (that is if I judge distance to the cat correctly and don't do a fresh air swing of my foot)
		
Click to expand...

That's fair enough, but I haven't yet heard a good reason why they shouldn't be allowed. The R&A doesn't say they are illegal, it says they contravene the rules of golf but are allowed under local rule. They have to say that because there is one set of rules that cover the sport for all players. If they said they were legal in comps, the pros would be able to use them. If they were illegal, they wouldn't be allowed at all


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## moogie (Dec 17, 2012)

But does using a GPS not 'speed up' play.......??
1 quick glance,  select club,  pull the trigger
Saves somebody pacing back and forth to a yardage marker,  as lots do


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			really no need for one if you have markers every 10 yards.
		
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i managed ok i guess without one, but I still find it worth it, some of our greens are pretty big and for me, it gets me closer than if i were to just go for the middle all the time.

sometimes up to 10 to 15 yards difference.


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			That's fair enough, but I haven't yet heard a good reason why they shouldn't be allowed. The R&A doesn't say they are illegal, it says they contravene the rules of golf but are allowed under local rule. They have to say that because there is one set of rules that cover the sport for all players. If they said they were legal in comps, the pros would be able to use them. If they were illegal, they wouldn't be allowed at all
		
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at last


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			That's fair enough, but I haven't yet heard a good reason why they shouldn't be allowed. The R&A doesn't say they are illegal, it says they contravene the rules of golf but are allowed under local rule. They have to say that because there is one set of rules that cover the sport for all players. If they said they were legal in comps, the pros would be able to use them. If they were illegal, they wouldn't be allowed at all
		
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:thup:

I actually think it would be a good idea to allow the pros to use them anyway, might help to speed up play and that can't be a bad thing!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Are these people playing the same course every week or travelling around other courses? I can understand familiarity with your home course reducing the need for a DMD.
		
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Like the majority of golfers they play their home course most of the time.


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## Dodger (Dec 17, 2012)

moogie said:



			But does using a GPS not 'speed up' play.......??
1 quick glance,  select club,  pull the trigger
Saves somebody pacing back and forth to a yardage marker,  as lots do
		
Click to expand...

Proved by the EGU and by the bawbag I played with in a Northumberland County event....one of the slowest players ever one week during a comp with no DMD's allowed then a totally different mad a month later at an event they were allowed!!

It didn't help that he could never find the bush/tree that was a marker on the course guide that was useless so ended up pacing every bloody thing!!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 17, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Like the majority of golfers they play their home course most of the time.
		
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Agreed, the majority do but there are loads who play lots of different courses all the time. The recent poll on here had a lot of people playing in excess of 20 courses a year, DMD's are a godsend for them.


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## Scottjd1 (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I think he is absolutely serious and absolutely right.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry guys and gals - whilst I sympathise - I'm struggling with a rationale that says one reason to allow DMDs* in a competition* is that some folks eyes ain't so good and/or distance judgement isn't great.  My upper arms ache quite a lot these days - sometimes to the extent that my ability to swing the club is impaired. And on my bad days I don't score so well - but I have to get on with it.  

Still haven't heard a really good reason 'pro' DMDs in club competitions (I keep stressing club comps as I am absolutely *not *against them for casual and practice play).  Yes OK - the R&A have their view - committees can permit their use - but none of that is a good reason to allow them in a comp when not all have, or can have, use of one - even if they wanted.  

It is all very well for the R&A to say that the same information can be gleaned from yardage charts and on-course markings.  Plain fact is that we all know that this is only partly true - and the R&A will know that.  The only way a player can get the same yardage information as is provided by a DMD is by working out (by pacing etc) their position relative to a yardage marker on the course or on yardage chart, and if playing to a green and pin placement diagrams are not provided (rare I'd say) by walking to the green and working out where the flag is relative to the datum point on the green.  Yes - sounds excessive but is factually the only way.  Do we want playes doing that?  Of course not.  But nothing stopping me doing it other than the ire of my partners and following players.  

But look - I don't have to justify why I think they should be banned from club comps - the R&A says they are illegal!  Users of DMDs have to make their case as to why they should be *allowed *to use them.  However I do not hold my breath and will, as usual with this matter, have to shrug my shoulders - walk off - and maybe kick the cat (that is if I judge distance to the cat correctly and don't do a fresh air swing of my foot)
		
Click to expand...

Yeah we know thats what you think, I disagree . :whoo:


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Agreed, the majority do but there are loads who play lots of different courses all the time. The recent poll on here had a lot of people playing in excess of 20 courses a year, DMD's are a godsend for them.
		
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Yes, I can see that.


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## BTatHome (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Users of DMDs have to make their case as to why they should be *allowed *to use them.
		
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i use one, and don't have to justify to anybody why I should be allowed to use one !!

I hope your next crusade is to outlaw equipment that costs more than Â£200 .... not everyone can use that either, even if they wanted. I doubt you'll agree to that though


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## elliottlale (Dec 17, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Agreed, the majority do but there are loads who play lots of different courses all the time. The recent poll on here had a lot of people playing in excess of 20 courses a year, DMD's are a godsend for them.
		
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Agreed!! If those people who play 20+ courses a year buy a course guide every time they play a new course, the price soon racks up.Â£3ish for a guide, that's Â£60 a year, then some may be lost if you happen to go back a second time. 2 years play and some can even pa for themselves! Well, unless you own a Skycaddie! Haha


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## Imurg (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Users of DMDs have to make their case as to why they should be *allowed *to use them.
		
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Nope, Sorry there but the R&A and my Club have done that for me. They're not illegal. They contravene the rules for competitive golf unless the club has introduced a Local Rule allowing them.

My club says I can use mine so - Tough!

A Driver with a COR of more than 0.83 is illegal, it can't be used and a Club cannot make a Local Rule to allow it.
This is an example of something that has been banned.
DMD's have not been banned

And anyway - if anyone doesn't like DMD's they have 3 choices....

1. Complain to the R&A and see how far you get 
or
2. Choose not to use one - as is your right
or 
3. Use one and take a giant step into the 21st century.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2012)

moogie said:



			But does using a GPS not 'speed up' play.......??
1 quick glance, select club, pull the trigger
Saves somebody pacing back and forth to a yardage marker, as lots do
		
Click to expand...

Only to an extent that matters if you are a slow player.  And you rather make my point - it becomes very easy to get a good estimate of distance if you use one and it can be a lot trickier if you don't.  So if during a competition I felt for whatever reason that those using DMDs had an advantage then I might well start pacing things out.  And boy would *that * slow things down and make me unpopular. But why shouldn't I do that if the rest of my game is quick (as it is) and I only seek the same information as those with the devices.

And @HawkeyeMS - surely the onus is on the proponents of new equipment to state their case for it being allowed, rather than accept the use of the equipment and then try and make a case against it.  That always - as in this case - ends in dispute.  

I can make a case *against *allowing DMDs in competitions whether you accept it or not (fairness and tampering with a fundamental of the game) - I just don't hear *any *convincing case *for* allowing DMDs in a comp.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 17, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can make a case *against *allowing DMDs in competitions whether you accept it or not (fairness and tampering with a fundamental of the game) - I just don't hear *any *convincing case *for* allowing DMDs in a comp.
		
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I've made my case earlier, in detail - which bit did you consider flawed?

As a practical example I was intending to support 2 Open events at your club this coming year - but will now have to make a point to establish that DMDs are permitted because without one I cannot possibly compete on an even playing field with home, or local, competitors....it's that simple. The DMD actually levels an otherwise distorted situation.


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## the hants reaper (Dec 18, 2012)

lots of replys to this , i use one to , cant do without mine i be lost


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 18, 2012)

Laser rangefinder for me, all the info I need.


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## the hants reaper (Dec 18, 2012)

no good on blind shots


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 18, 2012)

the hants reaper said:



			no good on blind shots
		
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I look at the map on the sign at the start of the hole. Usually some information like aiming posts and alike. Even with a GPS its still a massive risk hitting blind into a hole. I usually just play safe and lay up.


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## the hants reaper (Dec 18, 2012)

what there are none or kids have nicked them , what then


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 18, 2012)

the hants reaper said:



			what there are none or kids have nicked them , what then
		
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Golfers have been playing blind holes for decades without GPS, yes they reduce the risk but those shots are still tricky. I much prefer to just use the information I have. Not saying they are a bad thing, just not for me.


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## the hants reaper (Dec 18, 2012)

:lol:you know that stevie wonder plays blind shots , he is a scratch golfer , like to play for big money , nobody takes him on , TWoods heard about him and said he would for charity , TW asked SW how you know where you going , aaah thats where my caddy comes in , off the tee and fairways he lines me up then goes down the and shouts back to me , over here steve , same on the greens and i just hit it towards him , i getting very good at it , you want to play me for money , Â£20000 a hole says SW, .....TW says yes , as he is a 14 time major winner he thinks this be easy, so what time you want to play then SW, anytime at night says stevie wonder , woods being a pro cant use a DMD , lol .....


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## Slab (Dec 18, 2012)

Only ever used a yardage device when its fitted on-screen in the buggy, pretty useful in removing doubt but little else

_(I take it everyone supporting DMD's is also an staunch advocate (in principle) of using a dedicated chipper club for those players who use them & will proactively speak in favor of their use by golfers) _


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## Phil2511 (Dec 18, 2012)

Slab said:



_(I take it everyone supporting DMD's is also an staunch advocate (in principle) of using a dedicated chipper club for those players who use them & will proactively speak in favor of their use by golfers) _ 

Click to expand...

I would be lost without mine.


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## Slab (Dec 18, 2012)

Here's a hypothetical Q

If DMD's were to be officially recognised for any comp_ on the condition that it counted as a club_ (part of your permitted 14) would we accept the trade off (i.e one club out and carry a DMD)?


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## Phil2511 (Dec 18, 2012)

Personally I would put it on EBay for Gibbo to buy. Inside 100yds I never use mine. Preferring to play shots by eye and usually having better results which is why I now don't use it when I go past the 100yd disc. 

Mainly I would use mine to check hazards but tbh have only used it rarely the past 4 or 5 months so know I can get by without it especially if I had to forfeit my chipper lol


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## chrisd (Dec 18, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry guys and gals - whilst I sympathise - I'm struggling with a rationale that says one reason to allow DMDs* in a competition* is that some folks eyes ain't so good and/or distance judgement isn't great.  My upper arms ache quite a lot these days - sometimes to the extent that my ability to swing the club is impaired. And on my bad days I don't score so well - but I have to get on with it.  

Still haven't heard a really good reason 'pro' DMDs in club competitions (I keep stressing club comps as I am absolutely *not *against them for casual and practice play).  Yes OK - the R&A have their view - committees can permit their use - but none of that is a good reason to allow them in a comp when not all have, or can have, use of one - even if they wanted.  

It is all very well for the R&A to say that the same information can be gleaned from yardage charts and on-course markings.  Plain fact is that we all know that this is only partly true - and the R&A will know that.  The only way a player can get the same yardage information as is provided by a DMD is by working out (by pacing etc) their position relative to a yardage marker on the course or on yardage chart, and if playing to a green and pin placement diagrams are not provided (rare I'd say) by walking to the green and working out where the flag is relative to the datum point on the green.  Yes - sounds excessive but is factually the only way.  Do we want playes doing that?  Of course not.  But nothing stopping me doing it other than the ire of my partners and following players.  

But look - I don't have to justify why I think they should be banned from club comps - the R&A says they are illegal!  Users of DMDs have to make their case as to why they should be *allowed *to use them.  However I do not hold my breath and will, as usual with this matter, have to shrug my shoulders - walk off - and maybe kick the cat (that is if I judge distance to the cat correctly and don't do a fresh air swing of my foot)
		
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Sorry mate but is just a load of twaddle!


If you want to pace every shot, thats your perogative, only I rekon you'll be very short of games due to the unecessary delays you cause meaning that sane members will cold shoulder you unless they want the 6 hour round.

 The Rand A don't say they are illegal - full stop no argument, the requirement of a local rule doesn't mean that and a local rule CANNOT make something in golf legal, that is against the rules of golf. The initial reason for a local rule was that the R&A allowed their use in the mid point of the publication of new rules books and the local rule was the only way that they could allow them at that time - which also suggests that, far from discouraging them they were quite happy and relaxed about their use in comps.

I always got a yardage before they were allowed and always get on now, so they do nothing other than speed up my play as the process of getting the info is vastly quicker and your argument that only some people can have them is totally flawed - everyone can have one, just like everyone can have prov1 balls, a Â£300 driver, a set of Â£1,000 irons or not as their budget allows. No one CAN'T have one, just like the other things but not everyone WANT'S one but if that you mate please dont deny yourself one and then try and claim the moral high ground, the flawed arguments you put have been peddled here loads and not many agree with them.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you'd be happy if in a medal or a match a fellow player or opponent paced the distance to the flag every time he had a 50-60yarder?  Chances are you'd end up having to let the group behind through and that would probably drive you mad.
		
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There was a guy who did pretty much that a while back in top level competition and he seemed to be allowed to do so. He had some success too - 18 Majors!

I've used DMDs almost from the time they first became available, so I'm a fan. Immediately prior to that, I had memorized the yardages that were on the sprinkler heads of my home course - and there were 2 courses. At a previous, links, course, I found I was pretty good at guessing yardage by eye, though the wind was a huge factor too.

I don't have a problem if others choose not to use them, for one reason or another, but have seen quite a bit of hypocrisy (imo) from non-users.

Currently use SkyCaddie SGX (with pin-sheets) but have previously used Nikon 350G (best optics), Bushnell V2 (simplest to use) of those currently available. And I've also got a couple of 'Professional' yardage books too - so I've memorised some of the reference points from there too.

@Patrick148. That 'announcement' was the one about the use of multi-use devices (Iphones and the like), not the original (2006) one (placed in 2008 Rules) about allowing Committees to allow them. I believe  that ruling was a cop-out but that it appears to be consistent with their (pretty conservative) approach to the subject.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2012)

Slab said:



_(I take it everyone supporting DMD's is also an staunch advocate (in principle) of using a dedicated chipper club for those players who use them & will proactively speak in favor of their use by golfers) _ 

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Irrelevant to a discussion on DMDs, but, provided it's a legal one (as there have been 2-sided ones, which aren't), then I've no problem with one of these being one of the 14 clubs allowed. I know of someone who carries a left-handed PW for some recoveries - and still only carries 12 clubs!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm pretty awful at judging distances.  So I use mine all the time to give me a good idea of how far it is to the green.  Can I then make the ball go that exact distance? 90% of the time no.  But at least I quickly know how far I am supposed to hit it and can get on with it.  So it enhances my enjoyment of the game.

Aaaah, enjoying the game, what ever happened to that quaint concept.....


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## Robobum (Dec 18, 2012)

Hacker Khan said:



			.........

Aaaah, enjoying the game, what ever happened to that quaint concept.....
		
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 Enjoyment!!!!! How dare you


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## chrisd (Dec 18, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well in my opinion they conflict with the spirit of a level playing field when distance is anunceertainty we al;l have to deal with and that is a key part of the game.  You are rather relying on the goodwill of an opponent to not go pacing out yardages.
		
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Golf is anything but a level playing field and thats why we all have handicaps.

We are all, different ages, fitness, equipment, knowledge, ability etc etc - there is no level playing field and, since when was having one a "spirit" within the game. The course is out there in all it's glory and thats a level playing field (same for everyone on the day) but the ability to tackle it varies infinitely for everyone.

Distance, as I have said before is NOT an uncertainty - it is a matter of fact, and it's only how you ascertain the distance that is questionable. I have always done it by a DMD because its quick, accurate and legal.

I dont rely on the goodwill of others not to pace out and if they ask I would more than likely give them the yardage anyway. If they want to pace it I would be quite content so long as it didn't hold play up uneccessarily, after all, thats how we used to do it.

You have the right to not use a DMD Hogan but I really think on this issue that you are digging yourself into a hole, as have many before you when this subject has reared it's head. We play the game by the rules and they allow the use of devices and that is a tide that you really cannot swim sucessfully against!


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 18, 2012)

And @HawkeyeMS - surely the onus is on the proponents of new equipment to state their case for it being allowed, rather than accept the use of the equipment and then try and make a case against it. That always - as in this case - ends in dispute.
		
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Why should I (we) make a case for them being allowed when the R&A have said they can be used under local rule? This thread only turned into a debate because the anti-DMD guys turned it in to one trying to state their case why hey shouldn't be allowed. None of the pro-DMD brigade had to justify them until that point because they are allowed, there is nothing to justify.

I didn't buy my DMD until my old course introduced a local rule allowing them, there was no point, when they introduced the rule I embraced the technology. It hasn't made me a better player (I'm 0.7 higher now than I was in January), I haven't won a single club competition this year and I've only broken 80 once in a competition. Homer and I got knocked out of the Volvo matchplay at our home course despite me having a laser and he a GPS - they simply aren't a magic device that improves your game and they don't give you an advantage, if you play crap, you play crap regardless of the information you have.

The bottom line is, DMDs give you accurate yardage information, that's all they do. They don't hit the shot for you and they don't ensure you hit the right yardage or direction. You still have to judge the wind, slope, temparature etc and hit the shot.

Frankly, I'm at a loss to see how anyone can think a DMD is giving someone an unfair advantage and I've read nothing here that is gonna change my mind.


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## Slab (Dec 18, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Irrelevant to a discussion on DMDs....
		
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Not from the perspective of posters to this thread praising the virtues of DMD's while citing legality & justification for its use, who may have also slagged off the use of other sanctioned equipment due to some mis-placed sanctimonious viewpoint. Its actually just a replica discussion about another piece of golf equipment!


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## BTatHome (Dec 18, 2012)

If someone decided to pace out every shot then I would think they would get DQ'd from most comps for slowplay. 

Btw, you seem to think you have compelling arguments against DMD's yet we still don't see them, and you flatly refuse to listen to the fact they are NOT illegal


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 18, 2012)

Slab said:



			Not from the perspective of posters to this thread praising the virtues of DMD's while citing legality & justification for its use, who may have also slagged off the use of other sanctioned equipment due to some mis-placed sanctimonious viewpoint. Its actually just a replica discussion about another piece of golf equipment!
		
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It is totally different. Some people knock chippers as a club used by people who have given up trying to learn to chip. It's a bit a of joke but they are legal and I don't know anyone who has seriously argued that they should be banned.


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2012)

Have a game at Brora, and then tell me DMD's should be banned


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 18, 2012)

Robobum said:



			Enjoyment!!!!! How dare you
		
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Sorry, in the cold light of day I realise I was talking rubbish.  So in the future I will try harder to take it out of all proportion and spend most of my time on the golf course very frustrated.  Must try harder.

And I blame the forum for making me worse at golf.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 18, 2012)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry, I will try harder to take it out of all proportion and spend most of my time on the golf course very frustrated next time.  Must try harder.

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I've got that frustration bit down to a tee, need some tips?


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## Slab (Dec 18, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It is totally different. Some people knock chippers as a club used by people who have given up trying to learn to chip. It's a bit a of joke but they are legal *and I don't know anyone who has seriously argued that they should be banne*d.
		
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In the context of the forum its not hard to find...

Anyway I didn't mean to send this off topic, only to highlight the difficulty for the reader of this thread in how to take the pro-DMD lobby seriously when posters donâ€™t hold a consistent view on sanctioned equipment, conveniently jumping the fence when its something they don't use 

Bottom line is if your game needs a DMD beyond the markers then fill yer boots


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## Stuey01 (Dec 18, 2012)

Slab said:



			Not from the perspective of posters to this thread praising the virtues of DMD's while citing legality & justification for its use, who may have also slagged off the use of other sanctioned equipment due to some mis-placed sanctimonious viewpoint. Its actually just a replica discussion about another piece of golf equipment!
		
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Thats a nice strawman, well done.
For the record, if someone wants to use one of their 14 allowed spots for a dedicated chipper club then thats fine by me.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 18, 2012)

Slab said:



			In the context of the forum its not hard to find...

Anyway I didn't mean to send this off topic, only to highlight the difficulty for the reader of this thread in how to take the pro-DMD lobby seriously when posters donâ€™t hold a consistent view on sanctioned equipment, conveniently jumping the fence when its something they don't use 

Bottom line is if your game needs a DMD beyond the markers then fill yer boots 

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I'd be amazed if you can point me to a thread where someone actually seriously argued that chippers should be banned, long putters is a different story but the R&A have acted on that so those of us who disagree with their use on the basis that anchoring shouldn't be allowed had a point. The anti-DMD brigade haven't made any valid arguement to ban them.

By the way, as a free and independent person, I reserve the right to form opinions on things on a case by case basis and don't see why I should agree with, lets say long putters, just because I don't see an issue with DMDs in the same way that someone who uses a DMD may not agree with the concept of hybrids.


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## Region3 (Dec 18, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry guys and gals - whilst I sympathise - I'm struggling with a rationale that says one reason to allow DMDs* in a competition* is that some folks eyes ain't so good and/or distance judgement isn't great.
		
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A guy I play with often guesses the distance when I'm using my laser and he's rarely more than 3 or 4 yards wrong.
I've tried doing the same and I'm rarely within 10 yards and often 20 or more wrong - even inside 100 yards.
Is that fair?



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My upper arms ache quite a lot these days - sometimes to the extent that my ability to swing the club is impaired. And on my bad days I don't score so well - but I have to get on with it.
		
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If there were a device to make your arms feel much better I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would want to deny you the right to use that device.
Do you have stretching/strengthening exercises for your ailing arms?
I'm lucky in that I know what's wrong with mine, and I have daily exercises to try to make it better. If I stopped doing them I too would find it very difficult to swing normally.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes OK - the R&A have their view - committees can permit their use - but none of that is a good reason to allow them in a comp when not all have, or can have, use of one - even if they wanted.
		
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Is there anything other than cost that prevents somebody having a DMD who wants one?




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is all very well for the R&A to say that the same information can be gleaned from yardage charts and on-course markings.  Plain fact is that we all know that this is only partly true - and the R&A will know that.  The only way a player can get the same yardage information as is provided by a DMD is by working out (by pacing etc) their position relative to a yardage marker on the course or on yardage chart, and if playing to a green and pin placement diagrams are not provided (rare I'd say) by walking to the green and working out where the flag is relative to the datum point on the green.  Yes - sounds excessive but is factually the only way.  Do we want playes doing that?  Of course not.  But nothing stopping me doing it other than the ire of my partners and following players.
		
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You can get the same yardage info as a GPS user by pacing off from the last marker you pass on the way to your ball.
What about making pacing out illegal because some people have to use buggies because they can't walk the course. Now that is unfair. The fact that you and I can walk to pace out a yardage and the poor guy in the buggy has no chance.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But look - I don't have to justify why I think they should be banned from club comps - the R&A says they are illegal!  Users of DMDs have to make their case as to why they should be *allowed *to use them.
		
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My case is thus:
The R&A say that each club has the power to invoke a local rule allowing the use of them, and my club has that local rule in place. Ergo, I'm allowed to use one.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can make a case against allowing DMDs in competitions whether you accept it or not (fairness and tampering with a fundamental of the game)
		
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As I said at the start, I don't agree that my friend's far better judgement of distance than mine should have anything to do with who is the better golfer between us.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just don't hear any convincing case for allowing DMDs in a comp.
		
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That's because you are not *listening*.

Not including my post - there have been several very good rational arguments put forward, but you have not debated (or even acknowledged) any of them.


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## Region3 (Dec 18, 2012)

To answer the original question, yes I use one and it's a Nikon 350 laser.


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## garyinderry (Dec 18, 2012)

i think the anti-gps crew feel like its cheating when you introduce a digital-do-da into the mix. they like the idea of everyone turning up to the 1st tee with their 14 clubs, swing and brain. thats it!


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 18, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			i think the anti-gps crew feel like its cheating when you introduce a digital-do-da into the mix. they like the idea of everyone turning up to the 1st tee with their 14 clubs, swing and a*brain*. thats it!
		
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Sometimes that bold bit is optional 

BTW, have you got the PMs I've sent you? Not sure if they're working just now...


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## garyinderry (Dec 18, 2012)

sorry i did. waiting to hear back from my mate. i think he was on another bender at the weekend. he should re-appear today.  the driver is for his wee bro. you will be making the wee man very happy on christmas day. he also has a set of irons waiting for him then too. he must be ready to bust at this stage.  lol


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## the hants reaper (Dec 18, 2012)

agree with you , i share my info with my group , but i do wait for them to ask me as if like me once into a pre shot routine i dont want someone giving me info to confuse me


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## StrangelyBrown (Dec 18, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			sorry i did. waiting to hear back from my mate. i think he was on another bender at the weekend. he should re-appear today.  the driver is for his wee bro. you will be making the wee man very happy on christmas day. he also has a set of irons waiting for him then too. he must be ready to bust at this stage.  lol
		
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Magic :thup:


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2012)

the hants reaper said:



			agree with you , i share my info with my group , but i do wait for them to ask me as if like me once into a pre shot routine i dont want someone giving me info to confuse me
		
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I have no problem giving out the yardages to the flag to any of my playing partners. Ive even done it in matches so no real advantage. Ive a mate that won't be told, he likes to just go with what he feels is right and thats up to him at the end of the day.


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## Andy808 (Dec 18, 2012)

I started to use one but found I was not taking slopes or wind into account enough so stopped and I am better without one. 
I do still use one on a new course but not if I've played it a couple of times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			this is a fundamental flaw in your argument (as presented) and to quote the ruling bodies "Permitting the use of a measuring device to provide the same information that can be obtained through use of a yardage book or on-course markings is not considered to diminish the skill level required to play the game. "
		
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_Yes - assuming the player takes the time to pacie out yardage to the yardage marker and walk to the green to determine precise position of the flag_




			so let's move on to the next part of your argument against DMDs; that they create an unfair advantage to the player that as one. I would suggest that exactly the opposite applies! I will explain why - 
1. in the absence of any written yardage information if you and I met on a course you hadn't played before, and I have played it 1,000 times, I have a huge advantage that you cannot, by your argument, counter. So for the lack of information that assists the application of your golfing skill it becomes an unfair match.
		
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_I agree - that is why I ask my club committee to disallow use of DMDs in Closed Club Competitions - use would be permitted in Open Competitions_




			2. we are drawn to play a neutral course in a match, and having a lot more time than you I make a trip over and pace out/record all the appropriate distances on the course. My application of time has gained me an advantage you cannot match.
		
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_I agree - as above - DMDs can be used in any competition other than Closed Club Competition at my own club_




			3. same place and venue, being richer than you I employ a caddie who knows all............again I now have an advantage.
		
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_I agree that if we were members of the same club and you employed a caddy in a closed club competition, then you could have an advantage - though I'd say that the advantage you would have would be in respect of general play advice rather than distance_




			In all 3 cases you could push 'start' on your DMD and 'level the playing field (apart from some caddie factors )
		
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_I agree - though in a closed club competition without DMDs the playing field would already be level_




			The parallel to an electric trolley, better (more expensive) golf balls, new wedges every round, monthly re-gripping of clubs, right through to the best shoes and waterproofs, is also valid in my view - they are all a matter of choice but to feel that an opponent has an 'unfair' advantage because they are better prepared doesn't really work. You can't set the barriers in any of these areas - the ruling bodies do, including committes as you point out. When the above factors are pointed out most committees realise that it's by not permitting the use of DMDs that they are, themselves, contributing to an unfair environment at their club and, for those doing it to retain 'home advantage' it is they that are at odds with 'spirit of the game' elements; not everyone else!
		
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_I agree that such things can indeed make an individual more *prepared *to play the game in whatever conditions.  However none are actually *required *to be able to play the game and none need give anyone an advantage.   I could pick up any old set of clubs and balls and practice like billy-oh in all sorts of weather wearing nothing but my sunday suit - and I might  get down to scratch.  My hard work and experience prepares me to take on the best 'prepared' golfer - he who has all the raingear, expensive clubs , shafts and balls etc.  We still both stand on the 1st tee, deciding what to do, then club in hand we address the ball - and we hit it.  May the best player win._

So you see - I'm not totally anti-DMDs - I would just ask my club committee to disallow their use in closed club competitions.


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## Twire (Dec 18, 2012)

Hmmm, so now someone's come up with a good argument to allow dmd use in competitions, you move the goal post to 'closed club competitions'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2012)

Twire said:



			Hmmm, so now someone's come up with a good argument to allow dmd use in competitions, you move the goal post to 'closed club competitions'.
		
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I have agreed that in Duncan's scanarios in certain competitions one player will be at an advantage and another a disadvantage - but that doesn't necessarily make it right.  Antway - if I'm not happy that a competition I might enter away from my home club allows DMDs - then either I don't ente,r or I enter and keep my gob shut!  

My main gripe is (and always has been even if I have not said it explicitly) in the context of club competitions.  I prefixed this with Closed as someone would no doubt have started on about Opens - so my view on these are as given against Duncan's scenarios - OK.

And btw - I am allowed to *accept *arguments in favour of DMDs, whether I wholly agree with them or not.

So given that I accept that Duncan may have a point (or two) am I not then allowed to be more precise about my gripe?  Is that not what proper debate is all about?



But at my own club where I have a voice I think the situation


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2012)

swingsitlikehogan said:



			i have agreed that in duncan's scanarios in certain competitions one player will be at an advantage and another a disadvantage - but that doesn't necessarily make it right.  Antway - if i'm not happy that a competition i might enter away from my home club allows dmds - then either i don't ente,r or i enter and keep my gob shut!  

My main gripe is (and always has been even if i have not said it explicitly) in the context of club competitions.  I prefixed this with closed as someone would no doubt have started on about opens - so my view on these are as given against duncan's scenarios - ok.

And btw - i am allowed to *accept *arguments in favour of dmds, whether i wholly agree with them or not.

So given that i accept that duncan may have a point (or two) am i not then allowed to be more precise about my gripe?  Is that not what proper debate is all about?
		
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edit


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But at my own club where I have a voice...
		
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Does your own club allow DMDs in 'closed' competitions?


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## brendy (Dec 18, 2012)

Why are people being so negative and arsey towards those who chose not to use them?
The rules currently stipulate that it is down to the club local rules to decide if they are allowed in competition, ours allows them but I prefer to not use it.
 I also prefer not to use a trolly and I prefer not to wear long sleeved jumpers/jackets on the course, as long as we are all within the current rules, do we need to disect everything someone says? Seems very nit picky by some that feel the need to justify something that is perfectly fine to use at the moment. The R&A rarely get it wrong and I trust they evaluate everything with the good of the game in mind.


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2012)

How about all the folk in fav of DMD's chip in a Â£1 and buy Swing it like Hogan a range finder or gps. i wonder if that will do the trick to change hios mind.

Well SLH old boy what do you think?


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## bluewolf (Dec 18, 2012)

brendy said:



			Why are people being so negative and arsey towards those who chose not to use them?
The rules currently stipulate that it is down to the club local rules to decide if they are allowed in competition, ours allows them but I prefer to not use it.
 I also prefer not to use a trolly and I prefer not to wear long sleeved jumpers/jackets on the course, as long as we are all within the current rules, do we need to disect everything someone says? Seems very nit picky by some that feel the need to justify something that is perfectly fine to use at the moment. The R&A rarely get it wrong and I trust they evaluate everything with the good of the game in mind.
		
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 There's a difference between choosing not to use them and stating that they shouldn't be used. Personally, I don't care if you do or don't. They're within the rules so I'll use mine. If I forget it, I'll manage perfectly well without it. I wouldn't dream of imposing my opinion on people I play with.


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## chrisd (Dec 18, 2012)

bluewolf said:



			There's a difference between choosing not to use them and stating that they shouldn't be used. Personally, I don't care if you do or don't. They're within the rules so I'll use mine. If I forget it, I'll manage perfectly well without it. I wouldn't dream of imposing my opinion on people I play with.
		
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And that goes for me too. It's also the implied suggestion that everyone who uses them is cheating!


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## duncan mackie (Dec 18, 2012)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you see - I'm not totally anti-DMDs - I would just ask my club committee to disallow their use in closed club competitions.
		
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thank you for the response

so you are just of the view that new members joining the club should earn their knowledge of the course over time to get on the same level of inherent distance information as those who have been playing the course 40 years then.......... ?

as an aside I was looking through some of the detailed yardage maps I purchased (hugely annotated versions of the course planners closer to what the caddies carry for tour events) as well as my own versions derived from a lot of pacing out (actually used a wheel but the principles the same) - and considering the investment in terms of time and money that was involved. Boy am I glad I don't have all that now!

Please don't misunderstand me, I am happy for people to play the game the way they feel provides them with the most satisfaction (this seems to be the main driver for Brendy's stance and I can understand it), and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion about all aspects of this great game, but my opinion remains that the availability of a DMD is one of the best equalisers we have seen.

btw, you make a lot about pin positions but many clubs indicate the distance elements of their pin positions though the use of coloured flags, pattern approaches, indicator flags or, of course, detailed pin sheets so there's no need to walk up and take a look at all.


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## brendy (Dec 18, 2012)

chrisd said:



			And that goes for me too. It's also the implied suggestion that everyone who uses them is cheating!
		
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Similar to the broom handle threads then before the R&A made the announcement?
I dont think they are cheating but are certainly adding something to the users game that would otherwise leave them feeling at somewhat of a disadvantage Obviously this doesnt apply to all users as they are not currently blackballed.


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## TheJezster (Dec 18, 2012)

I use one, I bought the Garmin G5, purchased from Tesco at the knock down price of Â£120ish I think.  I started a thread about the offer some months ago.

They are allowed, so I will use one.  Its very very good too, does exactly what I want it to do.  As has been said above, no need to make a claim as to why they should be allowed because thats already been done for me.  I can use one.  Simples ;-)

I also have no issue if you choose not to use one, its each to their own as far as I'm concerned.  Im quite happy to let people know the distance from a given point if they ask me so you wouldnt have to use one if we played ;-)


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## thecraw (Dec 18, 2012)

Starting to get bored with this thread. Its going round in ever decreasing circles. 

Agree to disagree???


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Starting to get bored with this thread. Its going round in ever decreasing circles. 

Agree to disagree???
		
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just send me a Â£1 and be done with it


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 18, 2012)

Eight pages and counting. They are legal, subject to local rulings at your club, and you have a choice to use them or not. It is that simple. If you don't like them and prefer a more natural approach using your eyes, pacing yardage charts and marker posts crack on. If you like an easy life get a DMD.

Respect the choice of those on either side of the fence and move on.


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## joe nustedt (Dec 18, 2012)

Andy808 said:



			I started to use one but found I was not taking slopes or wind into account enough so stopped and I am better without one.
		
Click to expand...

I see that happening often in others, it's like click the button, yardage is xxx, that's a x iron or whatever.


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## Scottjd1 (Dec 18, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Starting to get bored with this thread. Its going round in ever decreasing circles. 

Agree to disagree???
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you Crawford.... (had to happpen one day )


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