# Should you be able to get relief from divots in the fairway?



## MarkT (Feb 17, 2021)

For help with an online piece... thanks


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

Nope - it opens up all sorts of issues , you would end up with people taking relief from the smallest mark on the fairway and it would end up just being pick and place 

And realistically how many times have people actually landed in that much of divot that it causes issues -? Once in a blue moon


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## Ethan (Feb 17, 2021)

I think not, actually. It may seem unfair and arbitrary, but we are playing in a natural environment and the environment is therefore variable and sometimes imperfect. We put large pits of sand on the course, so learning to play from a divot should be acceptable.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 17, 2021)

One of the most fundamental principles of golf, play the ball as it lies.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 17, 2021)

Imagine the likes of Matt Kuchar and the rest of the pro's if that was allowed. They wouldn't be able to finish a round under 8 hours as they'd claim a missing straw of grass under the ball being a divot.






It's a no from me.


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## DRW (Feb 17, 2021)

No.


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## JamesR (Feb 17, 2021)

I should, yes


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## Curls (Feb 17, 2021)

Too many will take advantage especially in matches, it’ll slow everything down checking. Just get on with it, you don’t get relief from a bad lie in snooker do you?


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2021)

probably not, but i think maybe you should at certain times from a seeded divot. seems strange to just undo a greenkeeps work


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 17, 2021)

Just from those that point at 45 degrees to the target


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## upsidedown (Feb 17, 2021)

Voted no, but why not take it the enth degree and have placing all year round to take any question as to what a Divot is out of the equation 😜😜😜


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## Canary Kid (Feb 17, 2021)

No ... as there can be no definitive description of what exactly is a divot and those that want to take unfair advantage will do so.


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## LincolnShep (Feb 17, 2021)

There is no way to write a rule that specifically defines a 'divot'.  The only way to achieve it would be to allow preferred lies anywhere, for any reason - and I don't want that.


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## 2blue (Feb 17, 2021)

No...  play it as it lies


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 17, 2021)

Curls said:



			Too many will take advantage especially in matches, it’ll slow everything down checking. Just get on with it, *you don’t get relief from a bad lie in snooker do you*?
		
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Do you get a bad lie in snooker? The table is immaculate, if there is dust on it it gets cleaned. (if the post was made tongue in cheek then I apologise for being slow)

I'm torn on this but on the basis that too many would take advantage I have gone no.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 17, 2021)

MarkT said:



			For help with an online piece... thanks
		
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If we do that we may as well go to preferred lies all season long.

This discussion gets done to death every year and for each little mark on the fairway everyone will be calling it a divot.

Its a bit like the embedded ball rule now and how many times can you see professionals claiming that they have broken ground when the ball has clearly bounced.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 17, 2021)

The only divots I want relief from are the ones holding the clubs.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

On the fairway yes.
You should be entitled to a fairway lie if your drive is on it.
I have snapped a shaft in the Club Champs playing from a divot.
It can hurt and is quite dangerous.
A seeded divot should be GUR as the greenkeeper has taken time to fill it but when you play your shot there’s nothing to put back.
This is a problem at short par 4s or dog legs where everyone lays up.

I do understand the cheating issue but imo that is a different issue. 
If the turf is missing it’s a divot.
If there’s grass under the ball it’s not a divot it’s a depression.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2021)

It can be a very cruel rule.
My daughter [then aged 14 or 15] was playing in the last eight of the SW Women's championship.
She was dormie 4 down to the previous years British Champion.
She parred 15, birdied 16, and parred 17 for wins then split the fairway with a great drive on 18 to find her ball in a deep divot that had obviously been removed by a crow/bird [upturned divot was lying next to it.]
She could not make the green from there and lost to a par.
Cost me £30 as the night before I said would give her a tenner for every hole she played past the 15th. [ A lot of money in those days]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2021)

No.  Too subjective and liable to give rise to contentious actions/decisions and bad feeling between players.  And that's not the nature of our game even when playing in a highly competitive context.

It's just rub of the green - one of these things.  There are plenty such 'things' we encounter during a round, and plenty of times the rules help us out of a scrape...sometimes literally.  And over the piece, good and bad breaks even out.

An old fella once told me as I moaned over the unfairness of something that could easy have been my ball in a divot hole - 'who said golf should be fair?'  Well I'm not sure of that but I get what he was on about.  Bottom line in the game is that you play the ball as you find it.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It can be a very cruel rule.
My daughter [then aged 14 or 15] was playing in the last eight of the SW Women's championship.
She was dormie 4 down 4  the previous years British Champion.
She parred 15, birdied 16, and parred 17 for wins then split the fairway with a great drive on 18 to find her ball in a deep divot that had obviously been removed by a crow/bird [upturned divot was lying next to it.]
She could not make the green from there and lost to a par.
		
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That’s very unlucky and unfair imo.
And like me that will influence her and your opinion on it .
If you don’t hit many fairways it’s not a problem.
But in my experience it always happens in a very important game.
Or seems like it.


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## Curls (Feb 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you get a bad lie in snooker? The table is immaculate, if there is dust on it it gets cleaned. (if the post was made tongue in cheek then I apologise for being slow)

I'm torn on this but on the basis that too many would take advantage I have gone no.
		
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Tongue firmly in cheek chap in relation to previous thread about snooker being more difficult 😉


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.  Too subjective and liable to give rise to contentious actions/decisions and bad feeling between players.  And that's not the nature of our game even when playing in a highly competitive context.

It's just rub of the green - one of these things.  There are plenty such 'things' we encounter during a round, and plenty of times the rules help us out of a scrape...sometimes literally.  And over the piece, good and bad breaks even out.

An old fella once told me as I moaned over the unfairness of something that could easy have been my ball in a divot hole - golf was never meant to be fair.  Well I'm not sure of that but I get what he was on about.  Bottom line in the game is that you play the ball as you find it.
		
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That’s not true anymore though.
Ask Reed or Mcilroy there are loads of exceptions to play as it lies.
A plugged ball is just in its own little divot , what’s the difference?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Play the ball as it lies.

Alternatively lift and drop with one stroke added.

What next? 

" I hit the fairway but got a bare lie! I should be  allowed to place the ball on a perfect lie."


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Just from those that point at 45 degrees to the target 

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theres a guy at Nairn with a terrible slice, his divots and big ones at that point 45 deg left, we were playing behind him in a comp last year and my mate landed in his divot on the 9th, no chance of him getting anywhere near the ball the divot was at least 3 inches deep, he could only chip out sideways on the line of the divot. We had been told not to replace divots the day before as from now on the club were just going to fill on a daily basis... it was aSat so no GK working


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 17, 2021)

Golf should be in essence “play the ball as it lies” and the rules we have should deal with things that prevent that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			On the fairway yes.
You should be entitled to a fairway lie if your drive is on it.
I have snapped a shaft in the Club Champs playing from a divot.
It can hurt and is quite dangerous.
A seeded divot should be GUR as the greenkeeper has taken time to fill it but when you play your shot there’s nothing to put back.
This is a problem at short par 4s or dog legs where everyone lays up.

I do understand the cheating issue but imo that is a different issue.
If the turf is missing it’s a divot.
If there’s grass under the ball it’s not a divot it’s a depression.
		
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How many times has it really happened to that level though ? 

And if you know it’s an a level of divot that’s going to cause potential damage then it’s time to be sensible and take an unplayable 

And how much turf needs to be missing for it to be called a divot ? 

It’s very much subjective and it’s down to the rub of the green even if you hit the fairwayb


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## Jimaroid (Feb 17, 2021)

Actually I've changed my mind. We should just play off mats all year round as it's the only way to get a consistent lie every time.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many times has it really happened to that level though ?

And if you know it’s an a level of divot that’s going to cause potential damage then it’s time to be sensible and take an unplayable

And how much turf needs to be missing for it to be called a divot ?

It’s very much subjective and it’s down to the rub of the green even if you hit the fairwayb
		
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Yes it’s is subjective.
So a ball in a divot no grass is a divot ,any grass under it it’s a depression.
The play it as it lies has so many exceptions now it’s not really relevant anymore.

A ball in its own mark is just a ball in its own divot but as Reed And Rory found you get relief .
What’s the difference one is made by your ball one is made by someone else?
Should it be played as it lies?


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## jim8flog (Feb 17, 2021)

A question that crops ever year or so.

I am firmly in the no camp. There would be too many arguments over what is a divot hole.

I play with one guy who would probably query every single lie.

Ps we do get relief from divots, they are loose impediments.


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## azazel (Feb 17, 2021)

If you're entitled to a "fairway lie" for hitting the fairway, does that mean that if you hit it into the cabbage and find a good lie you should have to bury it a bit so that you've got a "rough lie"? 

It's a no from me for free relief from fairway divots.


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## KenL (Feb 17, 2021)

Canary Kid said:



			No ... as there can be no definitive description of what exactly is a divot and those that want to take unfair advantage will do so.
		
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This is the reason I said no.
Also, can you imagine how much it would slow up play?


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			So a ball in a divot no grass is a divot ,any grass under it it’s a depression.
		
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Obviously going extreme here but.. 
An apparent divot, 1-2 inches deep.
Someone has replaced some grass but not trodden around it to smooth the edges.
Ball is sitting down in the "divot" but there's grass, a blade or 2, under the ball....
What now.?

Thats the scenario you're going to get.
Some will look and say it's a divot, some will say it's a depression.....
Who's right?
In your scenario, 1 blade of grass under the ball renders the divot a depression...
There's a reason the R&A haven't defined a divot that you can get relief from.


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## KenL (Feb 17, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			theres a guy at Nairn with a terrible slice, his divots and big ones at that point 45 deg left, we were playing behind him in a comp last year and my mate landed in his divot on the 9th, no chance of him getting anywhere near the ball the divot was at least 3 inches deep, he could only chip out sideways on the line of the divot. We had been told not to replace divots the day before as from now on the club were just going to fill on a daily basis... it was aSat so no GK working

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Ridiculous. You clearly have too many GKs.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes it’s is subjective.
So a ball in a divot no grass is a divot ,any grass under it it’s a depression.
The play it as it lies has so many exceptions now it’s not really relevant anymore.

A ball in its own mark is just a ball in its own divot but as Reed And Rory found you get relief .
What’s the difference one is made by your ball one is made by someone else?
Should it be played as it lies?
		
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Yes.

In my view we should all, amateurs and pro's alike, play it as it lies.


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## Neilds (Feb 17, 2021)

Doesn’t affect me, I never hit it where people have been before so never have to worry about divots🤣
Another thing to consider is whether you get relief from the hole, the turf or both (or neither)?


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## Crow (Feb 17, 2021)

No.


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2021)

KenL said:



			Ridiculous. You clearly have too many GKs.
		
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not on a saturday we don't


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## mister v (Feb 17, 2021)

I voted yes, without really thinking about it....... and now having read the thread i've changed my mind. in fairness i've only really rolled into a few diviots and for half the season at our course its pick and place due to the wet conditions
I do think that if you hit a fairway you should be rewarded with a good lie, but thats life


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Yes - Reed can get relief pretending the ball is plugged in deep rough, yet you hit a perfect drive up the fairway land in a massive divot and get nothing? That seems backward to me.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Yes - Reed can get relief pretending the ball is plugged in deep rough, yet you hit a perfect drive up the fairway land in a massive divot and get nothing? That seems backward to me.
		
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One is Rub of the Green, the other is chea.....


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

All year round preferred lies - no!


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Yes.

In my view we should all, amateurs and pro's alike, play it as it lies.
		
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Well at least that’s consistent and removes any argument.
But there are so many exemptions now it’s never going to happen.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			All year round preferred lies - no!
		
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Why not though? It's only if you manage to hit the fairway. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie for hitting a fairway? 

I'm shocked at the number of no votes to be honest. Feels like too many people want golf to remain unchanged for a hundred years. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie on the fairway?? It's only six inches no nearer the hole and doesn't take more than a second so what is the actual problem people have with it?? Other than change = bad.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

Yet some still think there is no bifurcation of the rules, and we are all playing to the same set. Well, yes, we are, due to provision of local rules that you will never see at your own course.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why not though? It's only if you manage to hit the fairway. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie for hitting a fairway?

I'm shocked at the number of no votes to be honest. Feels like too many people want golf to remain unchanged for a hundred years. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie on the fairway?? It's only six inches no nearer the hole and doesn't take more than a second so what is the actual problem people have with it?? Other than change = bad. 

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Just make the whole game easier, so everybody can play off scratch. Why stop at preferred lies?


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## Crazyface (Feb 17, 2021)

I voted YES and will always vote YES. It will not slow up play. Make a rule so that if the player claims a divot they are allowed one free drop one clubs length and then MUST play the ball from where it lies NO MATTER WHAT. Job done.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Just make the whole game easier, so everybody can play off scratch. Why stop at preferred lies?
		
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Because the lie is what the thread is about? Lovely bit of whataboutery though. 

If you vote no you're saying it's fair that a golfer is punished for a previous golfer they may never have met not replacing/repairing their divot earlier on. That's not fair at all.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I voted YES and will always vote YES. It will not slow up play. Make a rule so that if the player claims a divot they are allowed one free drop one clubs length and then MUST play the ball from where it lies NO MATTER WHAT. Job done.
		
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Why would it need to be a whole club length? The most sensible thing would be to just make it preferred lies as others mentioned, so no question about what is or isn't a divot. You could even make it 3 inches rather than 6 in summer if you want, that should still be enough to get out of most divots.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why not though? It's only if you manage to hit the fairway. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie for hitting a fairway?

I'm shocked at the number of no votes to be honest. Feels like too many people want golf to remain unchanged for a hundred years. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie on the fairway?? It's only six inches no nearer the hole and doesn't take more than a second so what is the actual problem people have with it?? Other than change = bad. 

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How about using a tee everywhere ? Maybe a mat ? 

Should they make the holes bigger ? Remove bunker and make the greens flag ? 

How many times have you actually had that bad a lie on a fairway ? 

Golf is constantly changing in regards equipment, courses , clothing , rules 

And taking a second for a preffered lie ? Have you seen how long some take when doing a drop 

Golf as with all sports is supposed to be hard to master , lots of things have made it easier for people to win when playing the sport - handicap , equipment etc , surely you don’t want to sanitise it even more


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## sweaty sock (Feb 17, 2021)

No way, Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it.

Replace or fill your divots and its a non issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why not though? It's only if you manage to hit the fairway. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie for hitting a fairway?

I'm shocked at the number of no votes to be honest. Feels like too many people want golf to remain unchanged for a hundred years. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie on the fairway?? It's only six inches no nearer the hole and doesn't take more than a second so what is the actual problem people have with it?? Other than change = bad. 

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In my thinking it's simply too subjective and therefore contentious - and contention can lead to conflict.

One of the basic tenets of our game is that we honestly follow the rules as laid down and accept that under the rules we sometimes get a good break, and sometimes our opponent will get a good break.  We absolutely don't need more _subjective _interpretation associated with the rules.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			All year round preferred lies - no!
		
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Thats what we have at the Forest, due to the amount of animal damage and the arguments it causes over whats a divot and what is caused by animals 😂


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why not though? It's only if you manage to hit the fairway. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie for hitting a fairway?

I'm shocked at the number of no votes to be honest. Feels like too many people want golf to remain unchanged for a hundred years. Why shouldn't you get a decent lie on the fairway?? It's only six inches no nearer the hole and doesn't take more than a second so what is the actual problem people have with it?? Other than change = bad. 

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You can always move your ball out of a divot, it's just that it'll cost a shot penalty.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How about using a tee everywhere ? Maybe a mat ?

Should they make the holes bigger ? Remove bunker and make the greens flag ?

How many times have you actually had that bad a lie on a fairway ?

Golf is constantly changing in regards equipment, courses , clothing , rules

And taking a second for a preffered lie ? Have you seen how long some take when doing a drop

Golf as with all sports is supposed to be hard to master , lots of things have made it easier for people to win when playing the sport - handicap , equipment etc , surely you don’t want to sanitise it even more
		
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More stupid whataboutery. It would be a miniscule change that adds no time and all it does is eliminate the possibility of being unfairly punished for somebody else's laziness.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			You can always move your ball out of a divot, it's just that it'll cost a shot penalty.
		
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Nobody would do that would they.


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## Neilds (Feb 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			No way, Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it.

Replace or fill your divots and its a non issue.
		
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Not quite a non issue. Usually a replaced divot won’t fully fit the hole it came from so will leave some uneven gaps. A divot could have been replaced then dried out, again leaving gaps. A filled divot with seed mixture is not the same as the main fairway.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			More stupid whataboutery. It would be a miniscule change that adds no time and all it does is eliminate the possibility of being unfairly punished for somebody else's laziness.
		
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Ok simple question - define what divot you can take relief from ? 

Any ? Specific size ?


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Thats what we have at the Forest, due to the amount of animal damage and the arguments it causes over whats a divot and what is caused by animals 😂
		
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I saw that they did and intended to ask if that was correct. I get the reasoning behind the rule in your club case


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok simple question - define what divot you can take relief from ?

Any ? Specific size ?
		
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I already said you can scoot past that conundrum by making it basically the same as preferred lies, but you could restrict to 3 inches rather than 6 maybe. No need to overcomplicate it.


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## KenL (Feb 17, 2021)

Is this a major issue for people?
You could probably count the number of times it happens over a year using your fingers.

No real issue playing a shot with a 7 iron down. Ball back in the stand at hit down steeply on it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I already said you can scoot past that conundrum by making it basically the same as preferred lies, but you could restrict to 3 inches rather than 6 maybe. No need to overcomplicate it.
		
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So you want to be able to pick the ball up and place it on a nice lie every time you hit the fairway ?! 

Is that not just dumbing down the sport to try and make it easier for people.

Do you not understand the basic principles of golf - that would be like stopping tackling in football.


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Nobody would do that would they. 

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I guess some might if it's a bad divot and there could be a potentially disastrous outcome to a shot. A 1 shot penalty could easily save an additional 2 or 3 shots.


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## Sats (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope - it opens up all sorts of issues , you would end up with people taking relief from the smallest mark on the fairway and it would end up just being pick and place

And realistically how many times have people actually landed in that much of divot that it causes issues -? Once in a blue moon
		
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This ^. Plus hitting out the divot is a skill that one must master, just like hitting out of a bunker/rough/etc


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you want to be able to pick the ball up and place it on a nice lie every time you hit the fairway ?!

Is that not just dumbing down the sport to try and make it easier for people.

Do you not understand the basic principles of golf - that would be like stopping tackling in football.
		
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Why not? 99% of the time I wouldn't bother because there would be no need. When it's winter and preferred lies you don't pick and place the ball for every single shot do you? So why would you if it was all year round? We're only talking about extending a rule that is already in place for half of the year.

No it would not be like stopping tackling in football.  



chrisd said:



			I guess some might if it's a bad divot and there could be a potentially disastrous outcome to a shot. A 1 shot penalty could easily save an additional 2 or 3 shots.
		
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Not really, you'd just take a pitching wedge out and bunt it 100 yards forward wouldn't you? Far better than taking a shot to move it 6 inches. Even if you duff it and it only goes 10 yards it's better than moving it 6 inches. Unless it lands in _another _divot but that really would be tremendous bad luck.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

azazel said:



			If you're entitled to a "fairway lie" for hitting the fairway, does that mean that if you hit it into the cabbage and find a good lie you should have to bury it a bit so that you've got a "rough lie"? 

It's a no from me for free relief from fairway divots.
		
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This is as good an answer as there is.


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## Captainron (Feb 17, 2021)

No. Golf is unique in that you are influenced by several factors outside of your control. Divots on the fairways are part of those factors. Deal with it


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why not? 99% of the time I wouldn't bother because there would be no need. When it's winter and preferred lies you don't pick and place the ball for every single shot do you? So why would you if it was all year round? We're only talking about extending a rule that is already in place for half of the year.

No it would not be like stopping tackling in football. 

Not really, you'd just take a pitching wedge out and bunt it 100 yards forward wouldn't you? Far better than taking a shot to move it 6 inches. Even if you duff it and it only goes 10 yards it's better than moving it 6 inches. Unless it lands in _another _divot but that really would be tremendous bad luck. 

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Because that’s not the game of golf - it’s supposed to be played from the lie you have been given not trying to find the best lie possible 

If you drive into the rough and it’s sat lovely do you think we should then make it a bad lie because you need to be punished because you have missed a fairway ? Or does it balance itself out 

You play the ball where it ends up regardless of the lie . 

In the winter I only pick the ball up to clean it , then it goes back to the same place it landed 

Asking for it to be pick and place all the time is just dumbing down the sport and people trying to make it easier


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## banjofred (Feb 17, 2021)

I'm against it, but I'd also like to find the people who keep leaving these huge divots....maybe the club could assign them some fairway maintenance work...

This happens to me a few times a month, usually just a minor irritation. I had several divots last year that I was in so deep there was no way the ball was going to go very far and all I could do was play it reasonably safely out of the divot without gouging it another few inches down and still not going very far. What if your ball rolls into a divot like this picture....this kind of a thing happens to me a 
number of times a year. Or another one that happens is someone "kind of" put their divot back, but there is a huge space between the divot and the rest of the fairway...ball sits down at least half an inch...all you can do is dig a ditch trying to get it out.


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## banjofred (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Asking for it to be pick and place all the time is just dumbing down the sport and people trying to make it easier
		
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Trying to make it easier....kind of like bigger headed clubs? I'd be fine to go back to the old style of clubs.....smaller heads with less help on bad shots. But, kind of hard to put the genie back in the bottle....


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## Sats (Feb 17, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I'm against it, but I'd also like to find the people who keep leaving these huge divots....maybe the club could assign them some fairway maintenance work...

This happens to me a few times a month, usually just a minor irritation. I had several divots last year that I was in so deep there was no way the ball was going to go very far and all I could do was play it reasonably safely out of the divot without gouging it another few inches down and still not going very far. What if your ball rolls into a divot like this picture....this kind of a thing happens to me a
number of times a year. Or another one that happens is someone "kind of" put their divot back, but there is a huge space between the divot and the rest of the fairway...ball sits down at least half an inch...all you can do is dig a ditch trying to get it out.





Click to expand...


Wow, how hard would it have been to 'un-peel' it back into the ground and step on it??? 
I just hate the divots that you don't see where it went and you spend the next few minutes hunting it, or those ones which disintegrate in mid air!


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because that’s not the game of golf - it’s supposed to be played from the lie you have been given not trying to find the best lie possible

If you drive into the rough and it’s sat lovely do you think we should then make it a bad lie because you need to be punished because you have missed a fairway ? Or does it balance itself out

You play the ball where it ends up regardless of the lie .

In the winter I only pick the ball up to clean it , then it goes back to the same place it landed

Asking for it to be pick and place all the time is just dumbing down the sport and people trying to make it easier
		
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That's how golf has been up until now, yeah. Again it's stamping your feet and saying 'I don't like change' which is fine if that's how you feel. I'm not lobbying for this change either, I just answered the hypothetical question on here with my honest feelings on it. The difference for me is that you're talking about luck of the draw on a natural landscape, which I agree with, but a divot isn't quite down to nature, it's down to the damage and neglect of a previous golfer, and that's the only reason I don't think it's fair. Perhaps preferred lies all year round isn't the best way to combat it, I'll grant you, it was just the easiest way to avoid grey areas.

There is some small precedent to this in Covid times - generally when you go in a bunker you were expected to deal with however it lies, but once the rakes were taken away, the rule changed to allow you to move it six inches to allow for footprints or whatever. So while I don't think golf will ever change the rule on divots, it wouldn't be completely unheard of.


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## sweaty sock (Feb 17, 2021)

I also want relief from but not limited to, Sudden rain showers, Gusts of wind, unexpected noises, irregular bounces.  Fairway lies that are into the grain or down grain, depending on what shot i want to play.... golfs full of luck, thats what makes it a challenge...


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## SaintHacker (Feb 17, 2021)

Play it as it lies for me, however i would add a caveat about playing out of filled seeded divots, purely from a course maintenance perspective


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Not really, you'd just take a pitching wedge out and bunt it 100 yards forward wouldn't you? Far better than taking a shot to move it 6 inches. Even if you duff it and it only goes 10 yards it's better than moving it 6 inches. Unless it lands in _another _divot but that really would be tremendous bad luck. 

Click to expand...

Not necessarily so easy, divots could be near a lake or heavy rough etc etc so your duffed 100 yard shot could hook into the lake or rough, or another divot, whereas a perfect lie from a drop could give a perfect 8 iron on the green and a one putt. Circumstances which would vary every time might make a drop a perfect answer.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 17, 2021)

As Traminator says in post #65, I have been playing over 40 years and can only remember finding by ball in a divot a handful of times.

 Find myself much more annoyed by the lazy sods that can't be bothered to rake bunkers properly and end up in their footmarks. Links pot bunkers can be tricky enough without adding in difficulty due to footprints


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Not necessarily so easy, divots could be near a lake or heavy rough etc etc so your duffed 100 yard shot could hook into the lake or rough, or another divot, whereas a perfect lie from a drop could give a perfect 8 iron on the green and a one putt. Circumstances which would vary every time might make a drop a perfect answer.
		
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Err, ok. Or a more perfect answer, drop out of the divot for free.


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Err, ok. Or a more perfect answer, drop out of the divot for free. 

Click to expand...

And just ruin golf as a game?


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## SteveJay (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			When it's winter and preferred lies you don't pick and place the ball for every single shot do you? 

Click to expand...

Err....yes, if its permitted, i.e. you are on the fairway. Why wouldn't you? Lift, clean and place.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Obviously going extreme here but..
An apparent divot, 1-2 inches deep.
Someone has replaced some grass but not trodden around it to smooth the edges.
Ball is sitting down in the "divot" but there's grass, a blade or 2, under the ball....
What now.?

Thats the scenario you're going to get.
Some will look and say it's a divot, some will say it's a depression.....
Who's right?
In your scenario, 1 blade of grass under the ball renders the divot a depression...
There's a reason the R&A haven't defined a divot that you can get relief from.
		
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Yes I get that we’re not all the same thank god.
The problem is most golfers know what a divot is.
But the waters are muddied by all the variations in stages of repair.
My opinion is made of my experience of them ,other opinions are avaliable .
But think a seeded divot should be GUR.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			And just ruin golf as a game?
		
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I've told you a million times not to exaggerate! 



SteveJay said:



			Err....yes, if its permitted, i.e. you are on the fairway. Why wouldn't you? Lift, clean and place.
		
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Eh? Why would you bother if you don't need to? If the ground is good and the ball is clean you just hit it and move on. Otherwise you're just wasting time.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			No way, Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it.

Replace or fill your divots and its a non issue.
		
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“Play the ball where it lies” Do you advocate playing your ball off a wrong green.?
Then if you take a divot that’s fine.
The birds at my club remove divots looking for worms. (I have seen them doing it early morning!)
So if the divot on the green is removed by a bird you must putt out of the divot if your unlucky enough to land in it.

There are so many exemptions to “play it as it lies”
Should the pros play from the middle of a grandstand?
After all it was there when they teed off.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

I don't get how people who have taken up a sport, have played it for about 30 seconds, feel the need to change the rules. They are what makes golf, golf. Yep, some are idiosyncratic, some are plain baffling, but that is what makes golf great. Is it fair? No. But so what. It was never meant to be.

If every shot had the expected outcome, how boring would it be?


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## MarkT (Feb 17, 2021)

I've played golf for 40 years and must have finished in fewer than 10 divots. Which maybe says a lot about my driving. There are few things more satisfying than getting to the bottom of the ball from one and it would just feel weird picking it up and moving it in the middle of summer


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## sweaty sock (Feb 17, 2021)

To put it into perspective, say it happens twice a season (which it doesnt, but for the sake of argument...)  and everytime it happens it costs you a full shot (which it doesnt, but for the sake of argument...).  Thats 2 shots in a year.  Who cares. Nobody.

So you're talking about removing one of the most
fundamental tenets of the game, for the sake of 2 shots a year.

Not to mention removing the skill of being able to hit from a bad lie.

Or removing the mental strength required to get through it without crying your eyes out about it being unfair.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			“Play the ball where it lies” Do you advocate playing your ball off a wrong green.?
Then if you take a divot that’s fine.
The birds at my club remove divots looking for worms. (I have seen them doing it early morning!)
So if the divot on the green is removed by a bird you must putt out of the divot if your unlucky enough to land in it.

There are so many exemptions to “play it as it lies”
Should the pros play from the middle of a grandstand?
After all it was there when they teed off.
		
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No  the pro should not play from a grandstand,  he should be obliged to take a drop under penalty.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you want to be able to pick the ball up and place it on a nice lie every time you hit the fairway ?!

Is that not just dumbing down the sport to try and make it easier for people.

Do you not understand the basic principles of golf - that would be like stopping tackling in football.
		
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Well that is basically happening now in football.
If you get the ball first and contact the player it’s yellow?
But that’s another thread.


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## sweaty sock (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			“Play the ball where it lies” Do you advocate playing your ball off a wrong green.?
Then if you take a divot that’s fine.
The birds at my club remove divots looking for worms. (I have seen them doing it early morning!)
So if the divot on the green is removed by a bird you must putt out of the divot if your unlucky enough to land in it.

There are so many exemptions to “play it as it lies”
Should the pros play from the middle of a grandstand?
After all it was there when they teed off.
		
Click to expand...

Just do what you like, tee it up on every shot.  Infact just write '1', all the way down the score column. Nobody forces you to play to the rules.


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## banjofred (Feb 17, 2021)

Sats said:



			Wow, how hard would it have been to 'un-peel' it back into the ground and step on it???
I just hate the divots that you don't see where it went and you spend the next few minutes hunting it, or those ones which disintegrate in mid air!
		
Click to expand...

This doesn't happen to me much during the "good months", but Winter?.....all the time when I'm in the rough and it's sloppy. I just give myself 10 seconds or so to find it (or pieces of it).... I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking for it. Quite often our group just says _what the heck_, play off your mat anywhere....makes me feel better about NOT taking a big soggy divot that you can only find bits of at the best. 

I must have bad luck, I'm in a LOT more divots than "couple of times a year" that a bunch of people are claiming.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2021)

MarkT said:



			I've played golf for 40 years and must have finished in fewer than 10 divots. Which maybe says a lot about my driving. There are few things more satisfying than getting to the bottom of the ball from one and it would just feel weird picking it up and moving it in the middle of summer
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - and imagine how an opponent of yours would feel if his ball came to rest in the middle of the fairway - but sat on a great big sycamore leaf.  You could move your ball out of the divot hole getting free relief from it; your opponent would be unable to remove the leaf without moving his ball and so would have to play it as it lay...

Both are just about equally unlikely to happen in the run of things - and so we have it today that the outcome in both events is the same - play ball as lies - there is no issue - and no issue = no debate = no contention = no conflict.  Because holy moly - the last thing we need when playing our game is conflict...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I get that we’re not all the same thank god.
The problem is most golfers know what a divot is.
But the waters are muddied by all the variations in stages of repair.
My opinion is made of my experience of them ,other opinions are avaliable .
But think a seeded divot should be GUR.
		
Click to expand...

I can sympathise with your point on seeded divots being GUR as that is precisely what it is.

There would, however,  be problems in determining when it cease to be a seeded divot once the seed germinated. Some grass growth and still some seed.

But overall I am firmly in the camp of hitting the ball and not touching it until it's holed. 

Obviously I will concede that it can be lifted and cleaned on the green but in any other intervention should be a penalty stroke.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			No  the pro should not play from a grandstand,  he should be obliged to take a drop under penalty.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough ! But that’s not play it as it lies.
I am sure the pro would want a choice of playing it if they could.
What about the wrong green? Play it as it lies ?


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## JamesR (Feb 17, 2021)

MarkT said:



			I've played golf for 40 years and must have finished in fewer than 10 divots. Which maybe says a lot about my driving. There are few things more satisfying than getting to the bottom of the ball from one and it would just feel weird picking it up and moving it in the middle of summer
		
Click to expand...

That’s why they annoy so much, because they are rare and they stand out in your memory.

I remember in the club champs, I finished in one which pointed off on a slicers angle,(not the best for a drawer of the ball), but it’s one of very few so really got under my skin for a while.

But I don’t really think the rule should be changed.

It’s also a shame that, for a game of honesty, one of the main reasons people say no is that people can’t be trusted to not take advantage of the rules.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Just do what you like, tee it up on every shot.  Infact just write '1', all the way down the score column. Nobody forces you to play to the rules.
		
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Very good answer to my question.
It’s a discussion.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

JamesR said:



			It’s also a shame that, for a game of honesty, one of the main reasons people say no is that people can’t be trusted to not take advantage of the rules.
		
Click to expand...

True, that. It often seems to be the recourse from some people when we talk about rules that "people would abuse it" - but a lot of existing rules can already been abused, so trusting a golfer's integrity is no different whatever the rule says.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

JamesR said:



			That’s why they annoy so much, because they are rare and they stand out in your memory.

I remember in the club champs, I finished in one which pointed off on a slicers angle,(not the best for a drawer of the ball), but it’s one of very few so really got under my skin for a while.

But I don’t really think the rule should be changed.

It’s also a shame that, for a game of honesty, one of the main reasons people say no is that people can’t be trusted to not take advantage of the rules.
		
Click to expand...

Tottaly agree the honesty bit.
But it’s “the play it as it lies “that is trotted out every time this is debated.
There are so many exceptions in the rules the ball is not played where it lies anymore.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			There are so many exceptions in the rules the ball is not played where it lies anymore.
		
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But they are not exceptions, they are rules within the game. Drop off a green, drop out of a penalty area etc. These are all inherent parts of the game. When the ball is in play you play it as it lies or declare it unplayable and take a penalty. Simple.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			True, that. It often seems to be the recourse from some people when we talk about rules that "people would abuse it" - but a lot of existing rules can already been abused, so trusting a golfer's integrity is no different whatever the rule says.
		
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The reason it would be abused isn't really down to a lack of integrity on the part of the player (although that will occur occasionally), it's more down to the comp,etc inability to define, to the absolute certainty, what a divot is.
That's the crux of the whole debate.
If you can 100% define what constitutes a divot, without there being any potential anomalies, then you have a case for arguing whether you should get relief or not.
And..
As has been said, if you are allowed a "perfect" lie on the fairway are you going to bury your ball in the cabbage when you, miraculously, get a decent lie after carving a drive?
After all, they are both examples of luck
Can you deny one while righting the other?


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## Whereditgo (Feb 17, 2021)

When does a divot cease to be a divot?

Hit it, go find it, hit it again!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The reason it would be abused isn't really down to a lack of integrity on the part of the player (although that will occur occasionally), it's more down to the comp,etc inability to define, to the absolute certainty, what a divot is.
That's the crux of the whole debate.
If you can 100% define what constitutes a divot, without there being any potential anomalies, then you have a case for arguing whether you should get relief or not.
And..
As has been said, if you are allowed a "perfect" lie on the fairway are you going to bury your ball in the cabbage when you, miraculously, get a decent lie after carving a drive?
After all, they are both examples of luck
Can you deny one while righting the other?
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. At what point does a divot become 'a slightly uneven bit of fairway'?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			But they are not exceptions, they are rules within the game. Drop off a green, drop out of a penalty area etc. These are all inherent parts of the game. When the ball is in play you play it as it lies or declare it unplayable and take a penalty. Simple.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I don’t agree.
You are not playing it as it lies if you are moving it somewhere else. Not so simple.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The reason it would be abused isn't really down to a lack of integrity on the part of the player (although that will occur occasionally), it's more down to the comp,etc inability to define, to the absolute certainty, what a divot is.
That's the crux of the whole debate.
If you can 100% define what constitutes a divot, without there being any potential anomalies, then you have a case for arguing whether you should get relief or not.
And..
As has been said, if you are allowed a "perfect" lie on the fairway are you going to bury your ball in the cabbage when you, miraculously, get a decent lie after carving a drive?
After all, they are both examples of luck
Can you deny one while righting the other?
		
Click to expand...

I would say the cabbage isn’t a prepared area to play from .
The fairway is prepared for you to play from.
So a comparison can’t really be made.
Luck plays a part but we forget the good luck but do remember for a long time the bad luck.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The reason it would be abused isn't really down to a lack of integrity on the part of the player (although that will occur occasionally), it's more down to the comp,etc inability to define, to the absolute certainty, what a divot is.
That's the crux of the whole debate.
If you can 100% define what constitutes a divot, without there being any potential anomalies, then you have a case for arguing whether you should get relief or not.
And..
As has been said, if you are allowed a "perfect" lie on the fairway are you going to bury your ball in the cabbage when you, miraculously, get a decent lie after carving a drive?
After all, they are both examples of luck
Can you deny one while righting the other?
		
Click to expand...

There are loads of areas open to interpretation in much the same way, like what constitutes a path or not, nearest point of relief, embedded ball, etc etc. 

And as has also been said (by me) - you're talking about luck of the draw with the natural landscape, whereas a divot is (usually) the negligence of another human being which makes it unfair to let that affect someone else's game.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			There are loads of areas open to interpretation in much the same way, like what constitutes a path or not, nearest point of relief, embedded ball, etc etc.

And as has also been said (by me) - you're talking about luck of the draw with the natural landscape, whereas a divot is (usually) the negligence of another human being which makes it unfair to let that affect someone else's game.
		
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Negligence.??
Ever seen a crow turn a divot over.?
And you still need to define a divot.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Negligence.??
Ever seen a crow turn a divot over.?
And you still need to define a divot.
		
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Do I? It's where a chunk of grass & earth has been removed with a golf club and not put back isn't it? I thought you would know that, you've been playing longer than I have.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Do I? It's where a chunk of grass & earth has been removed with a golf club and not put back isn't it? I thought you would know that, you've been playing longer than I have. 

Click to expand...

The #1 reason for this debate
Some are obvious, some barely visible. 
Where is the line drawn?
It's all down to definition and that's virtually impossible


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The #1 reason for this debate
Some are obvious, some barely visible.
Where is the line drawn?
It's all down to definition and that's virtually impossible
		
Click to expand...

As I said before, there are plenty of things already in the rules that are debatable and not black and white, all of which require integrity from you and your fellow golfers. You only have to look at the latest fortnightly Patrick Reed scandal to realise that.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Do I? *It's where a chunk of grass & earth has been removed with a golf club and not put back isn't it?* I thought you would know that, you've been playing longer than I have. 

Click to expand...

Yes it is. But 3 months later when the grass has grown back, is it still a divot then?


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yes it is. But 3 months later when the grass has grown back, is it still a divot then?
		
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That's like asking when a man's hair has grown back, is he still bald? What do you think?


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			There are loads of areas open to interpretation in much the same way, like what constitutes a path or not, nearest point of relief, embedded ball, etc etc.

And as has also been said (by me) - you're talking about luck of the draw with the natural landscape, whereas a divot is (usually) the negligence of another human being which makes it unfair to let that affect someone else's game.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure a path, nearest point of relief or embedded is "open to interpretation" I'd say they were fact


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			That's like asking when a man's hair has grown back, is he still bald? What do you think? 

Click to expand...

I think your reply sums up the problem. You don't know when a divot is no longer a divot so the simple solution is play the ball as it lies.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure a path, nearest point of relief or embedded is "open to interpretation" I'd say they were fact
		
Click to expand...

Then you're not thinking hard enough. Often the end of a path isn't clearly defined as it reaches the end and sort of fades into mud. Nearest point of relief from said path could arguably be one side or the other depending on where the ball rests. And a ball could be embedded to different degrees, so at some point you have to draw the line and say it isn't embedded enough to get relief wouldn't you? They're not yes/no answers, you generally need to reach an agreement with those you are playing with.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I think your reply sums up the problem. You don't know when a divot is no longer a divot so the simple solution is play the ball as it lies.
		
Click to expand...

My reply summed up the problem with your daft question, yeah.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			My reply summed up the problem with your daft question, yeah.
		
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Jeez you really don't get it do you? How do I explain this in simple terms so that you can understand the issue   Actually I can't be bothered, maybe you should stick to football.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Then you're not thinking hard enough. Often the end of a path isn't clearly defined as it reaches the end and sort of fades into mud. Nearest point of relief from said path could arguably be one side or the other depending on where the ball rests. And a ball could be embedded to different degrees, so at some point you have to draw the line and say it isn't embedded enough to get relief wouldn't you? They're not yes/no answers, you generally need to reach an agreement with those you are playing with.
		
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NPR is either one or the other - it's the nearest point. You don't get a choice.
A ball is either embedded or it isn't - if part of the ball is below ground level and stuck then it's embedded.
These are clearly defined.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Then you're not thinking hard enough. Often the end of a path isn't clearly defined as it reaches the end and sort of fades into mud. Nearest point of relief from said path could arguably be one side or the other depending on where the ball rests. And a ball could be embedded to different degrees, so at some point you have to draw the line and say it isn't embedded enough to get relief wouldn't you? They're not yes/no answers, you generally need to reach an agreement with those you are playing with.
		
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All of these examples are clear, to someone who knows the rules, and is not seeking unfair advantage.


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## Crow (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would say the cabbage isn’t a prepared area to play from .
*The fairway is prepared for you to play from.*
So a comparison can’t really be made.
Luck plays a part but we forget the good luck but do remember for a long time the bad luck.
		
Click to expand...


I don't think that's strictly true, in fact I'm not even sure that the "fairway" is defined in the latest edition of the rules.

A quick check on randa.org reveals that the rules define five areas of the course, from which I'd guess that terms such as fairway and rough are just used by golfers for their convenience.

So the whole pretext for this poll is a nonsense!


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## MarkT (Feb 17, 2021)

JamesR said:



			That’s why they annoy so much, because they are rare and they stand out in your memory.

I remember in the club champs, I finished in one which pointed off on a slicers angle,(not the best for a drawer of the ball), but it’s one of very few so really got under my skin for a while.

But I don’t really think the rule should be changed.

It’s also a shame that, for a game of honesty, one of the main reasons people say no is that people can’t be trusted to not take advantage of the rules.
		
Click to expand...

Where did the shot go?


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			NPR is either one or the other - it's the nearest point. You don't get a choice.
A ball is either embedded or it isn't - if part of the ball is below ground level and stuck then it's embedded.
These are clearly defined.
		
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They were just off the top of my head. I'm sure you could think of better examples where interpretation and agreement is required, if you wanted to.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Actually, generally the answers to those are fairly clear-cut according to the rules:

1.   If you get relief from man-made surfaces, including paths, mud is not a man-made surface and isn't actually on the path, therefore no drop.

2.   Nearest point is a specific place and is never normally open to debate.   One one side of the path there will be a clear nearest point where the ball can sit and the ball and player are clear of the obstruction.   Often this is determined by whether the player is left or right handed.

3.   Very clearly defined in the rules.   If the earth is broken and the ball sits in the indentation, it's embedded.    Recent update, indentations made by forefingers don't actually count 

Click to expand...

I'm not describing it well, but I've seen it a number of times where a gravel path kind of ends gradually rather than abruptly, and you could end up on a bit which is some gravel some mud (usually at the end of the path) and you might have some debate with your fellow golfers about whether it's the path or not. It has happened to me anyway and I can only speak from experience. 

Obviously there will be a factually correct point of relief but that doesn't mean everyone present will agree upon where that is does it? It can be difficult to come to an agreement sometimes.

Re embedded ball - I was just trying to spitball examples, that was obviously fresh in my mind due to recent incidents.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			you generally need to reach an agreement with those you are playing with.
		
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I don't think you'll find that in the rules! Just because you've come to an agreement doesn't make it correct.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			That entirely depends how mentally weak you are.
Landing in a divot is a possibility, it doesn't happen often but it can.
You wouldn't see any good players whingeing about it, it's just something that happens occasionally, you hit the ball and get on with it.

EDIT: To be fair I would whinge like hell...But I'd get over it as it's part of the game 

Click to expand...

Playing Club Champs 16th hole nailed my drive into a divot.
I was one shot behind my pp so had no option to have a go.
Cost me as I snapped my shaft but bogey was ok.
I lost by one so I remember.
Yes I agree it’s rare but always seems to be in an important one.
Yes it is part of the game I agree.
But good players whinge like hell can’t agree there.

What I would say though is a divot 2” deep with the turf next to it is a very different thing to a repaired one that’s only a slight depression, maybe that’s the problem .
We don’t really register the depressions but if your in a crater you remember!


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I don't think you'll find that in the rules! Just because you've come to an agreement doesn't make it correct.
		
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Well that's the way it is in the real world I'm afraid. I tend not to operate just on my own volition on the course, I generally check with someone else just so there's no disagreements - even if I'm sure I have it correct. Save arguing after the event.


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## JamesR (Feb 17, 2021)

MarkT said:



			Where did the shot go?
		
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Straight, but nowhere near far enough 🤬


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Crow said:



			I don't think that's strictly true, in fact I'm not even sure that the "fairway" is defined in the latest edition of the rules.

A quick check on randa.org reveals that the rules define five areas of the course, from which I'd guess that terms such as fairway and rough are just used by golfers for their convenience.

So the whole pretext for this poll is a nonsense! 

View attachment 35081

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How does Preffered lies on areas cut to fairway height work then if there are no fairways?
What the hell are our green keepers doing cutting them all the time for?


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Well that's the way it is in the real world I'm afraid. I tend not to operate just on my own volition on the course, I generally check with someone else just so there's no disagreements - even if I'm sure I have it correct. Save arguing after the event.
		
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I get the impression that your regular 4 ball play something that looks like golf, but actually isn't golf. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem so.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			They were just off the top of my head. I'm sure you could think of better examples where interpretation and agreement is required, if you wanted to.
		
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The thing is that, in go,f, if you have things that are open to interpretation then the World will burn.
The R&A don't like us interpreting anything.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I get the impression that your regular 4 ball play something that looks like golf, but actually isn't golf. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem so.
		
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Well we hit balls towards flags with sticks, what do you do?   Seriously though, I don't know why it causes people to be uptight when I say these things. I've always said we play to the rules as best as we understand them, I get the agreement with others purely out of acceptance that I don't have an encyclopaedic memory and sometimes I need reassurance that I'm doing the right thing. What's wrong with that?


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## theoneandonly (Feb 17, 2021)

As an awesome Golfer who hits a lot of fairways, its actually pretty rare I find myself in a divot and to be fair it's not that tough a shot to play anyway.
It's a no from me!


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The thing is that, in go,f, if you have things that are open to interpretation then the World will burn.
The R&A don't like us interpreting anything.
		
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As golf is played in the real world, everything can't be black and white. It's impossible.


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## theoneandonly (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:




Fair enough
		
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It's true though right?


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

Pretty much the only times the rules are not obvious, is when someone doesn't like the obvious answer, and looks for a different one.


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 17, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Replace or fill your divots and its a non issue.
		
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It's not me that you have to worry about, it's all of the other idiots that don't fill their divots.


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## Fore Right! (Feb 17, 2021)

I'd prefer a yes but appreciate the rules (unless temporary local rule is in place) is no.
with fairways struggling to recover over the last few years (effect of hot weather and then heavy rains) it would be better for the course recovery as well as the player + it does seem "unfair" to hit a fairway and get a lie that can be worse than being off the fairway


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## Tashyboy (Feb 17, 2021)

When I play, I replace divots and repair my pitch marks, and others. If I am waiting to play a shot and there’s divots around I will replace them.
So should I get a free relief from a divot. It should not be there in the first place, yes crows turn them over but not the hundreds and thousands I see every year.Crows don’t take divots 15 yds down the fairway to look for a worm. Hypothetically I hit a stonking drive down the middle and it ends up in a divot. I would be bloody livid coz someone could not be bothered to replace it. 
In an ideal world there should be no divots and it should be a hypothetical question. So it’s a reluctant yes from me. 
For me it’s similar to repairing someone else’s pitch mark on a green what someone else has left but you repair it coz it’s in your line. You shouldnt have to, but you do.
Litter, Repairing others pitch marks, replacing others divots, and slow play are my main gripes with golf.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Pretty much the only times the rules are not obvious, is when someone doesn't like the obvious answer, and looks for a different one.
		
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I thought checking with your PPs was standard practice, I always do it and every group I've played in has. It's not that rules are complicated or obscure, it just saves hassle. Don't want to get onto the green and someone argue that your drop wasn't nearest point of relief etc. If everyone agrees what you are doing is correct then they can't complain later.

There are a few obscure rules though, practice swing hitting a tree, no penalty: practice swing hitting a tree and a twig falls off and hit the ground, penalty; real swing hits a tree and a twig falls off, no penalty


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## Crow (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			How does Preffered lies on areas cut to fairway height work then if there are no fairways?
What the hell are our green keepers doing cutting them all the time for? 

Click to expand...

What I meant was that "fairways" or closely mown areas are just a part of the general area, a golfer has no more right to expect a good lie there than in the rough.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Well we hit balls towards flags with sticks, what do you do?   Seriously though, I don't know why it causes people to be uptight when I say these things. I've always said we play to the rules as best as we understand them, I get the agreement with others purely out of acceptance that I don't have an encyclopaedic memory and sometimes I need reassurance that I'm doing the right thing. What's wrong with that?
		
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It's quite likely that it causes people to be uptight because the way it comes across is you're arguing for a rules change but not always appearing to understand the rules you want changed.

And in wider principal I agree, very few people can keep all the nuances of the rules of golf in their head but that's what the R&A/USGA booklets and Apps are for.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			I thought checking with your PPs was standard practice, I always do it and every group I've played in has. It's not that rules are complicated or obscure, it just saves hassle. Don't want to get onto the green and someone argue that your drop wasn't nearest point of relief etc. If everyone agrees what you are doing is correct then they can't complain later.

There are a few obscure rules though, practice swing hitting a tree, no penalty: practice swing hitting a tree and a twig falls off and hit the ground, penalty; real swing hits a tree and a twig falls off, no penalty
		
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Is this an animal scrape? No. If you need to ask, it isn't. I am taking relief from etc, or I am not. There is no grey area. If it is, then it is as grey for them, as it is for you. Therefore, it isn't.
Is it on the path? Only you can answer this, and if it is not clear to you, then it will not be clearer to someone else, and it isn't.
Is this the nearest point of relief? There is only one nearest point. Asking someone else would arrive at the same point. 

if you need to ask, either you do not know how to proceed, or, you don't like the answer.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			It's quite likely that it causes people to be uptight because the way it comes across is you're arguing for a rules change but not always appearing to understand the rules you want changed.

And in wider principal I agree, very few people can keep all the nuances of the rules of golf in their head but that's what the R&A/USGA booklets and Apps are for.
		
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I've not asked for it to be changed, just answered the hypothetical question at the top and justified my answer. 

I prefer not to spend ten minutes trying to find the ruling in an app, if everyone in the group agrees on a ruling that's good enough for me. I'm only going to look it up if we have no idea, or are directly opposed on what the ruling should be.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Is this an animal scrape? No. If you need to ask, it isn't. I am taking relief from etc, or I am not. There is no grey area. If it is, then it is as grey for them, as it is for you. Therefore, it isn't.
Is it on the path? Only you can answer this, *and if it is not clear to you, then it will not be clearer to someone else*, and it isn't.
Is this the nearest point of relief? There is only one nearest point. Asking someone else would arrive at the same point.

if you need to ask, either you do not know how to proceed, or, you don't like the answer.
		
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I disagree. If I'm playing in a comp with some older members they often have a greater knowledge of the rules than me, indeed they may have been in the exact situation I find myself in, and thus able to advise based on how they proceeded in the past.


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## Orikoru (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			This is a popular misconception amongst golfers, it is not an *automatic* penalty if you knock something off a tree with a practice swing.
It is only a penalty if that action improves the area of your intended swing.
		
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I would say that's another rule that's open to interpretation. It's impossible to say 100% if that twig would have affected your final swing or not if it's no longer there when you take your stance.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Is this an animal scrape? No. If you need to ask, it isn't. I am taking relief from etc, or I am not. There is no grey area. If it is, then it is as grey for them, as it is for you. Therefore, it isn't.
Is it on the path? Only you can answer this, and if it is not clear to you, then it will not be clearer to someone else, and it isn't.
Is this the nearest point of relief? There is only one nearest point. Asking someone else would arrive at the same point.

if you need to ask, either you do not know how to proceed, or, you don't like the answer.
		
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it's simply a courtesy, and I would fine someone saying I am taking relief from this and dropping here to be quite rude. Animal scarpings are not clear cut, to use your example, on the tour the pros often get the referee over to make a ruling on what is and what isn't relievable. So why do you think your knowledge is to a standard that the pros don't have.

Of course things are or they aren't, but it isn't always incredibly obvious what is it. If I saw my playing partner pick the ball up and take relief I would want to know why as that is odd. Instead if they said, hey guys, animal scraping he's so going to take a drop here is that okay? then no issue.

It is purely being courteous to your playing partners and keeping them updated with what you are doing


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Is this an animal scrape? No. If you need to ask, it isn't. I am taking relief from etc, or I am not. There is no grey area. If it is, then it is as grey for them, as it is for you. Therefore, it isn't.
Is it on the path? Only you can answer this, and if it is not clear to you, then it will not be clearer to someone else, and it isn't.
Is this the nearest point of relief? There is only one nearest point. Asking someone else would arrive at the same point.

if you need to ask, either you do not know how to proceed, or, you don't like the answer.
		
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Like you Murph, I rarely ask and that's for two reasons, I think I'm pretty clued up on the rules and the guys I'm playing with in a comp are not refereeing so I dont want to get into an argument, but I'm happy to give an opinion if asked. I know you're clued up to as are quite a few of the forum guys I've played with.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			This is a popular misconception amongst golfers, it is not an *automatic* penalty if you knock something off a tree with a practice swing.
It is only a penalty if that action improves the area of your intended swing.
		
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I know why it would be a penalty, just pointing out the the nature of the rules are not clear cut. Improving you lies doesn't have to be deliberate so You could be standing in the exact same place, do the exact same thing and for the drop of one twig you could get a penalty or not


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I disagree. If I'm playing in a comp with some older members they often have a greater knowledge of the rules than me, indeed they may have been in the exact situation I find myself in, and thus able to advise based on how they proceeded in the past.
		
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Believe me, many of the older guys are good on the rules but dont always keep up to date with them, I've had a few disagreements and had to prove that the rule they refer to changed years ago.


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			I know why it would be a penalty, just pointing out the the nature of the rules are not clear cut. Improving you lies doesn't have to be deliberate so You could be standing in the exact same place, do the exact same thing and for the drop of one twig you could get a penalty or not
		
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Improving your swing path is probably the hardest rule in the book to call i reckon, but I've seen it said that taking 100 leaves off a tree with many thousands may not improve your line but taking two leaves off a tree with huge leaves may do so. It is one of the few rules that are genuinely arguable imo


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## DanFST (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you not understand the basic principles of golf - that would be like stopping tackling in football.
		
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Really? I assume your clubs stay in the garage when preferred lies comes about? Seeing as it's not golf anymore!


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## Whereditgo (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Believe me, many of the older guys are good on the rules but dont always keep up to date with them, I've had a few disagreements and had to prove that the rule they refer to changed years ago.
		
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And very often false rulings have become ingrained over the years, I still regularly hear people "declaring" their ball lost, "you just roll the ball out of it's pitch mark" etc etc

Best one I can remember was back when the phone apps first became popular, but weren't allowed in competitions. I quietly mentioned to a F/C that he shouldn't be using his and he got quite heated, insisted we took it up with the pro. The pro just laughed and said I can use this laser range finder in competitions and it can calculate elevation, so if I can use this you lot can certainly use your phones.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I prefer not to spend ten minutes trying to find the ruling in an app, if everyone in the group agrees on a ruling that's good enough for me. I'm only going to look it up if we have no idea, or are directly opposed on what the ruling should be.
		
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I don't fancy a comp at your place much.


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## jim8flog (Feb 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			There are loads of areas open to interpretation in much the same way, like what constitutes a path or not, nearest point of relief, embedded ball, etc etc.

.
		
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I would say all those points *are* clearly defined within the rule book.  It is just a players failure to read the rule book which is another matter.

Embedded ball - see the drawings on page 101 of the rule book
When is a path not a path where you get relief? In the absence of a local rule the point at which it ceases to be artificially surfaced.
Nearest point of relief is always that. If there is more than one because they are equidistant the player is permitted to choose which point to use.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I would say all those points *are* clearly defined within the rule book.  It is just a players failure to read the rule book which is another matter.
		
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like with all rules and laws in all sports, just because something is defined doesn't mean it is opened to interpretation as well.

Take rugby, everything is defined in the law book, but incidents on the pitch are all determined by how the referee interpreted the event against the law, or even interpreted the laws themselves. Even if we get into the actual law, everything is defined, but will be interpreted by the judges


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			And very often false rulings have become ingrained over the years, I still regularly hear people "declaring" their ball lost, "you just roll the ball out of it's pitch mark" etc etc

Best one I can remember was back when the phone apps first became popular, but weren't allowed in competitions. I quietly mentioned to a F/C that he shouldn't be using his and he got quite heated, insisted we took it up with the pro. The pro just laughed and said I can use this laser range finder in competitions and it can calculate elevation, so if I can use this you lot can certainly use your phones.
		
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Pretty typical of what I've had too. I had the " you cant brush anything off the green with anything other than the back of your hand" that one probably changed 10 years ago!


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			like with all rules and laws in all sports, just because something is defined doesn't mean it is opened to interpretation as well.

Take rugby, everything is defined in the law book, but incidents on the pitch are all determined by how the referee interpreted the event against the law, or even interpreted the laws themselves. Even if we get into the actual law, everything is defined, but will be interpreted by the judges
		
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Any examples come to mind?


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## DanFST (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Any examples come to mind?
		
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Scotland Red card this weekend is a perfect example.


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## jim8flog (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			like with all rules and laws in all sports, just because something is defined doesn't mean it is opened to interpretation as well.

Take rugby, everything is defined in the law book, but incidents on the pitch are all determined by how the referee interpreted the event against the law, or even interpreted the laws themselves. Even if we get into the actual law, everything is defined, but will be interpreted by the judges
		
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see my edited post #158


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## Whereditgo (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			like with all rules and laws in all sports, just because something is defined doesn't mean it is opened to interpretation as well.

Take rugby, everything is defined in the law book, but incidents on the pitch are all determined by how the referee interpreted the event against the law, or even interpreted the laws themselves. Even if we get into the actual law, everything is defined, but will be interpreted by the judges
		
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I don't think there is a comparison, in your example of rugby the referee may have to interpret intent, take the attempted interception for example resulting in a knock-on. Plus referee's in many other sports are looking at moving objects and moving people. In golf it's pretty much a matter of fact of where the ball is etc and even when there is conjecture (ball hit towards a penalty area) the amount of certainty required is defined.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Any examples come to mind?
		
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sure, take the England game last Saturday, was Johnny May diving for the line or jumping to avoid a tackle. One interpretation means a try is scored and one means a penalty against. The referee on the day gave the try, Nigel Owens on social media said it should have been a penalty.

In cricket you cannot score leg byes unless you are playing a shot or taking evasive action, but it down to the interpretation of the umpire whether the there was genuine shot being offered or if evasive action was being taken

In law theft is defined as permanently depriving someone of something, most times it is straight forward but that doesn't mean the judge cannot interpret the facts and come to a different conclusion

Knowing the rules in black and white does not necessarily mean you can interpret them all the time correctly. Which is why just a courtesy word with your PPs is normal behaviour in my experience. You are not looking for a new ruling or questioning the rules, you are simply saying this is what has happened, this is how I interpret it, are you okay with that.

This won't be everything obviously, if I have hit into a lake I will take a drop as prescribed, but if there were animal scrapes I would as a courtesy say this as it is less obvious to my PPs what I am doing


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Scotland Red card this weekend is a perfect example.
		
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I meant in golf, may not have made that clear


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			I don't think there is a comparison, in your example of rugby the referee may have to interpret intent, take the attempted interception for example resulting in a knock-on. Plus referee's in many other sports are looking at moving objects and moving people. In golf it's pretty much a matter of fact of where the ball is etc and even when there is conjecture (ball hit towards a penalty area) the amount of certainty required is defined.
		
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sometimes it is intent, often it is an interpretation of the laws and the actions themselves. See the Johnny May try above


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## Whereditgo (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			sometimes it is intent, often it is an interpretation of the laws and the actions themselves. See the Johnny May try above
		
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Absolutely, my point was when does interpretation happen in golf? I would suggest it should almost never happen, the example Chrisd gave of leaves being knocked off a tree on a practice swing is about the only one I can think of.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I meant in golf, may not have made that clear
		
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in golf you only have to go back to Reed's drop a few weeks ago. Numerous arguments over what was the correct interpretation of the rules, Which could have all be avoided if he clarified the rules before making his drop rather than retrospectively 

or you may left and check your ball if you have reasonable belief that it is cracked. To do so without that reasonable belief is a penalty. Now define reasonable belief or would that be a case of making an interpretation on the course based on events


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Absolutely, my point was when does interpretation happen in golf? I would suggest it should almost never happen, the example Chrisd gave of leaves being knocked off a tree on a practice swing is about the only one I can think of.
		
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see above


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## rulefan (Feb 17, 2021)

MarkT said:



			For help with an online piece... thanks
		
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You do have the opportunity to get relief. Divots are generally 'Loose Impediments'


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## jim8flog (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			I thought checking with your PPs was standard practice, I always do it and every group I've played in has. It's not that rules are complicated or obscure, it just saves hassle. Don't want to get onto the green and someone argue that your drop wasn't nearest point of relief etc. If everyone agrees what you are doing is correct then they can't complain later.

There are a few obscure rules though, practice swing hitting a tree, no penalty: practice swing hitting a tree and a twig falls off and hit the ground, penalty; real swing hits a tree and a twig falls off, no penalty
		
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 There is no requirement to check with your fellow competitors  under the majoriy of the rules in the Rule book and in fact within the rule book there is a the following

c. Rules Issues in Stroke Play
(1) No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time to help with a Rules issue:

• The players are encouraged to help each other in applying the Rules, but they have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement they may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Reed did clarify the rules before dropping.
What is in doubt is how the hole was made (although it was onviously made by his finger imo).

If you wish to check if your ball is damaged and it's not, you just replace it exactly as it was.
		
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But if you don't have reasonable belief that it's scratched it is a penalty to lift and check

plus what Reed did was mark, pick up the ball and the clarify


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			There is no requirement to check with your fellow competitors  under the majoriy of the rules in the Rule book and in fact within the rule book there is a the following

c. Rules Issues in Stroke Play
(1) No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time to help with a Rules issue:

• The players are encouraged to help each other in applying the Rules, but they have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement they may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.
		
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I never said there was a requirement

it's just a courtesy to let them know what you are doing and why, then if they disagree they can do so then. For instance if I was playing with you for the first time, I don't know your character, and I look over and you are picking your ball up and taking a drop, because you had decided there was an animal scrape. I would be looking at you very warily indeed, if you announced I am taking a drop because there's an animal scrape, then I would think fine, I wouldn't check. It is just a courtesy.

I have played in matches where my opponent has said he is doing something and I have raised an objection under the rules and we have consulted the rule book and found them to be wrong. Now if he had just unilaterally decided his interpretation was correct and carried on without telling me the situation would have become a lot worse


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			in golf you only have to go back to Reed's drop a few weeks ago. Numerous arguments over what was the correct interpretation of the rules, Which could have all be avoided if he clarified the rules before making his drop rather than retrospectively

or you may left and check your ball if you have reasonable belief that it is cracked. To do so without that reasonable belief is a penalty. Now define reasonable belief or would that be a case of making an interpretation on the course based on events
		
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 As Traminator says, Reed did everything within the rules and the arguments after were all because it was Reed. If you believe your ball to be cracked then you'd follow the laid down rules , it's down to the player not the people he's playing with


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			If a player genuinely thinks their ball is embedded, they are entitled to mark it and check. There no requirement to call anyone else.
		
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again we come back to reasonable belief

that can only be determined by interpretation. It is not clear cut whether someone has a genuine reasonable belief or is just trying to improve their position


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			As Traminator says, Reed did everything within the rules and the arguments after were all because it was Reed. If you believe your ball to be cracked then you'd follow the laid down rules , it's down to the player not the people he's playing with
		
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you are missing the point. I know the rules are there for checking your ball, but the rules are defined as "if the player has a reasonable belief" which by definition is open to interpretation. If they hit a ball into the semi rough and it's a bit embedded, and they say oh I think it may be cracked, is that genuine reasonable belief or an attempt to improve the position. Interpretation


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			again we come back to reasonable belief

that can only be determined by interpretation. It is not clear cut whether someone has a genuine reasonable belief or is just trying to improve their position
		
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If he doesn't have reasonable belief he simply cheating if he lifts the ball


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			you are missing the point. I know the rules are there for checking your ball, but the rules are defined as "if the player has a reasonable belief" which by definition is open to interpretation. If they hit a ball into the semi rough and it's a bit embedded, and they say oh I think it may be cracked, is that genuine reasonable belief or an attempt to improve the position. Interpretation
		
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If he's cheating then he's cheating, maybe only he knows that but its not open to interpretation


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			If he doesn't a reasonable belief he simply cheating if he lifts the ball
		
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exactly

now if someone you were playing with marked, and picked up their ball and put it down again without saying anything to you would you not be a bit curious at what they were doing? If they said the ball felt funny of the face I think it's cracked I'm going to check would you still be curious as to why and what they were doing.

I know you don't have to say anything, but I would rather tell my PPs what I was doing than do it and get accused of cheating later


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## r0wly86 (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			If he's cheating then he's cheating, maybe only he knows that but its not open to interpretation
		
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of course it is

also someone earlier said an animal scrape either is or isn't, technically true but unless your David Attenborough you won't necessarily be able to identify all types of scrapes. I have seen Mickelson invite the referee over to determine whether he was correct in saying something was a scrape. Why would he do that if it obvious and self evident


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## Whereditgo (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			you are missing the point. I know the rules are there for checking your ball, but the rules are defined as "if the player has a reasonable belief" which by definition is open to interpretation. If they hit a ball into the semi rough and it's a bit embedded, and they say oh I think it may be cracked, is that genuine reasonable belief or an attempt to improve the position. Interpretation
		
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But you are interpreting their actions (and possibly their integrity), they are checking the facts, marking and lifting a ball to see if it is damaged or marking and lifting a ball to see if is is embedded.


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## Whereditgo (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			What about Chris Packham?

Michaela Strachan?🙂
		
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Michaela Strachan please


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## chrisd (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			of course it is

also someone earlier said an animal scrape either is or isn't, technically true but unless your David Attenborough you won't necessarily be able to identify all types of scrapes. I have seen Mickelson invite the referee over to determine whether he was correct in saying something was a scrape. Why would he do that if it obvious and self evident
		
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In the pro game a decision by a referee is final and that is the main reason why the pro asks the referee to guide them.

In our case a player can lift and check a ball without referring to any other player, they no longer have to be observed doing it so as its solely down to the players honesty there is no interpretation involved. If a PP thinks the player has acted incorrectly he can ask the committee to make a decision


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			of course it is

also someone earlier said an animal scrape either is or isn't, technically true but unless your David Attenborough you won't necessarily be able to identify all types of scrapes. I have seen Mickelson invite the referee over to determine whether he was correct in saying something was a scrape. Why would he do that if it obvious and self evident
		
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Mickelson knows the rules. He probably knew he shouldn't get a drop in that instance. He does, he gets lucky, and gets the ruling he wants, probably because of who he is. Cheating? No, but not being 100% honest, hmm.

So which of my 3 playing partners is better equipped to define an animal scrape than me? I would guess none of them. Why would I push a decision onto them, that I am uncomfortable making myself? Because I am hoping they will say yes? Not a good reason to ask. Not in my view.


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## Paperboy (Feb 17, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Err....yes, if its permitted, i.e. you are on the fairway. Why wouldn't you? Lift, clean and place.
		
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I only do it if a massive lump of mud or a poor lie. Otherwise I still play it as it lies.


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## jim8flog (Feb 17, 2021)

r0wly86 said:



			I never said there was a requirement

it's just a courtesy to let them know what you are doing and why, then if they disagree they can do so then. For instance if I was playing with you for the first time, I don't know your character, and I look over and you are picking your ball up and taking a drop, because you had decided there was an animal scrape. I would be looking at you very warily indeed, if you announced I am taking a drop because there's an animal scrape, then I would think fine, I wouldn't check. It is just a courtesy.

I have played in matches where my opponent has said he is doing something and I have raised an objection under the rules and we have consulted the rule book and found them to be wrong. Now if he had just unilaterally decided his interpretation was correct and carried on without telling me the situation would have become a lot worse
		
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I virtually always tell my fellow competitors what I am doing unless it is blatantly obvious, e.g. taking relief from an obstruction it is up to them if they want to come and check and I take the same view the other way round tell the player to decide for themself f I know them well.

I quoted the stroke play rule it is slightly different for match play.


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## jim8flog (Feb 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			In the pro game a decision by a referee is final
		
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As it is in the amateur game. It is just that in the amateur game very few games have an official referee.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The thing is that, in go,f, if you have things that are open to interpretation then the World will burn.
The R&A don't like us interpreting anything.
		
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What about a percentage guess your balls gone in the water?


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about a percentage guess your balls gone in the water?
		
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A virtually certain percentage guess?


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## Steve Wilkes (Feb 17, 2021)

Once a round a free drop, no clean and only if on fairway, although I think this will be abused


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about a percentage guess your balls gone in the water?
		
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It's defined.
Known or virtually (at least 95%) certain.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			A virtually certain percentage guess?
		
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Is still a guess.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			It's defined.
Known or virtually (at least 95%) certain.
		
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Can’t be both can it so it’s still a guess unless you see a splash.
It black and white if it’s 100% any less it’s an educated guess.
So interpretation is allowed under this rule!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 17, 2021)

t



jim8flog said:



			As it is in the amateur game. It is just that in the amateur game very few games have an official referee.
		
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I was playing with one of our members a couple of years who had just stopped representing the county.

In his mid 50's but still playing off +3 and had played county golf for donkeys years. Reason he had stopped was the number of opponents he was playing in late teens and early 20's who were calling in the refs for a ruliing every time they were in trouble in the rough. He reckoned they were so desperate to win in the hope of attracting England selectors.

Took the enjoyment right out of it for him and as he said, if they as full time amateurs couldn't beat an old fella like him working a 40 hour week they weren't good enough for England.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can’t be both can it so it’s still a guess unless you see a splash.
It black and white if it’s 100% any less it’s an educated guess.
So interpretation is allowed under this rule!
		
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It is only virtually certain, if there really is nowhere else it can be. So if the close cut grass runs out to the water, and you can't find it, it is virtually certain. If there is any possibility it is hidden by rough, then no, it's not virtually certain. Same if there are a load of leaves, etc. Virtually certain, is exactly that.


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## Imurg (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can’t be both can it so it’s still a guess unless you see a splash.
It black and white if it’s 100% any less it’s an educated guess.
So interpretation is allowed under this rule!
		
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What are you interpreting? 
The rule defines it, you don't interpret this rule..you play to it
It sets out what can and can't happen.
The fact that there only needs to 95%+ certainty doesn't mean any interpreting is going on.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It is only virtually certain, if there really is nowhere else it can be. So if the close cut grass runs out to the water, and you can't find it, it is virtually certain. If there is any possibility it is hidden by rough, then no, it's not virtually certain. Same if there are a load of leaves, etc. Virtually certain, is exactly that.
		
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Yes I know the rule.
I was answering a quote about the R&A not liking golfers interpreting anything.
This is one example that is up for interpretation.
It’s a high threshold but it’s there.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What are you interpreting?
The rule defines it, you don't interpret this rule..you play to it
It sets out what can and can't happen.
The fact that there only needs to 95%+ certainty doesn't mean any interpreting is going on.
		
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You are making a guess under a certain set of circumstances that it’s gone where you think it’s gone.
It’s a funny one I don’t see how anyone can be 95% certain. 
I have never in my 63 yrs heard anyone use that as an example
Even 99% leaves a small dought.
So I think it is open to interpretation.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I know the rule.
I was answering a quote about the R&A not liking golfers interpreting anything.
This is one example that is up for interpretation.
It’s a high threshold but it’s there.
		
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Not sure. In my view it has to be pretty obvious that the ball went in the hazard. If there is anywhere else it could be, then it isn't virtually certain. I don't see much room for interpretation unless someone is looking for it.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Not sure. In my view it has to be pretty obvious that the ball went in the hazard. If there is anywhere else it could be, then it isn't virtually certain. I don't see much room for interpretation unless someone is looking for it.
		
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I bet Mickelson or Reed would be.
Certain means 100% sure.
Virtually means an educated guess but still a guess.
That’s just how I see it.


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I bet Mickelson or Reed would be.
Certain means 100% sure.
Virtually means an educated guess but still a guess.
That’s just how I see it.
		
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I don't see it as a guess. If you saw it go in, then it is in.
If you didn't see it go in, but there really is nowhere else it could be, then you are vitually certain.
If there is anywhere else it can be, then no, it's not virtually certain, and you proceed accordingly. 
I don't see any guessing, or any opportunity whereby what your options are, are other than the rules.
Again, there only exists an option, if you are looking for an option that is not what is obvious.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 17, 2021)

Since when does virtually mean guessing?

I’m not being that guy who posts a dictionary meanings but virtually has nothing to do with guesswork. Virtually certain, almost certain, nearly certain, effectively certain, pick any other synonym but it’s not guessing.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Since when does virtually mean guessing?

I’m not being that guy who posts a dictionary meanings but virtually has nothing to do with guesswork. Virtually certain, almost certain, nearly certain, effectively certain, pick any other synonym but it’s not guessing. 

Click to expand...

Certain means your 100% sure.
Virtually certain means there is an element of dought so a small element of guesswork.
Imo the two words don’t really go together.
Your either Certain or your not .


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## Oddsocks (Feb 17, 2021)

It never makes sense to 

1) make the divot deeper by playing from it.
2) undo potential repair work carried out from seeding 
3) penalise a player from hitting a good shot
4) risk potential damage to equipment or injury to a player.

For me pros and clubman games are not comparable as the courses are rested then manicured to ensure perfection, even with pick and placed after a couple of heavy showers.  
Clubman golf items played in what pros would deem as unplayable weather, if it’s on the fairway pick and place as standard.


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## Kellfire (Feb 17, 2021)

Yes. Hitting the fairway should be rewarded with a good lie and it isn’t the golfer’s fault there is a flaw in the turf.


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## Slab (Feb 18, 2021)

@MarkT , do the other guys in the GM office give you these ‘suggestions’ as great ideas for topics to post about, and then snigger to themselves? (A bit like sending the new guy next door for a long stand/left handed screwdriver etc) 

Just beware if they next tell you to post about:
Poker chip ball markers
Where to stand on the teeing area
Colour of socks
Any dress code topic
Declaring what ball you’re using
What is advice
Timing your lost ball search
etc....


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Yes. Hitting the fairway should be rewarded with a good lie and it isn’t the golfer’s fault there is a flaw in the turf.
		
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What’s this “rewarded” with a good lie ? What happens if it’s hit and tree and then goes into the fairway ? Or it’s going into the rough then gets a lucky bounce into the fairway - should someone really get the lie they want just because they have landed in the fairway ?

And on the flip side does that mean if you hit into the cabbage and get a good lie you need to place it to get a poor lie because that’s what you should be rewarded ? Or you hit it into trees but have a perfect line out so you need to move the ball behind a tree ?
Golf had elements of luck in it - sometimes bad and sometimes good - if you hit a great shot and it just gives you a poor lie - that’s just the rub of the green , you just move on , that’s the sport of golf


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## Kellfire (Feb 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s this “rewarded” with a good lie ? What happens if it’s hit and tree and then goes into the fairway ? Or it’s going into the rough then gets a lucky bounce into the fairway - should someone really get the lie they want just because they have landed in the fairway ?

And on the flip side does that mean if you hit into the cabbage and get a good lie you need to place it to get a poor lie because that’s what you should be rewarded ? Or you hit it into trees but have a perfect line out so you need to move the ball behind a tree ?
Golf had elements of luck in it - sometimes bad and sometimes good - if you hit a great shot and it just gives you a poor lie - that’s just the rub of the green , you just move on , that’s the sport of golf
		
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I disagree. Hitting the fairway (although obviously this will involve luck sometimes) is the aim and should be rewarded with a good lie.

Others have replied saying similar. Are you going to give them as detailed a reply or are you playing the man and not the proverbial ball here? Are the others stuck in a divot and you can’t get a clean strike at them?


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## JamesR (Feb 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s this “rewarded” with a good lie ? What happens if it’s hit and tree and then goes into the fairway ?
		
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I think you’re living in a world of fantasy there Phil...doesn’t happen, at least not to me!


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

I can hit fairways at my place and have a downhill/uphill lie with the ball above or below my feet 
I'd rather be further left or right, in the rough and in a divot because it's flatter.


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## Kellfire (Feb 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I can hit fairways at my place and have a downhill/uphill lie with the ball above or below my feet
I'd rather be further left or right, in the rough and in a divot because it's flatter.
		
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So aim left or right off the tee then.  😬


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			So aim left or right off the tee then.  😬
		
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If only one had such control over the small white sphere....


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## Kellfire (Feb 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If only one had such control over the small white sphere....
		
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Have you tried pink or yellow balls? That left handed fella over in the states seems to use them at times and he can’t hit the damn thing straight to save his life.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Have you tried pink or yellow balls? That left handed fella over in the states seems to use them at times and he can’t hit the damn thing straight to save his life.
		
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That's actually true.
He has real trouble "seeing" a straight shot other than a putt.

Our slopes, bounces and the wind make it tricky to be as accurate as you'd like.
Often you have to aim over the left rough and hit a draw just to find the first cut right.....


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## Jimaroid (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Yes. Hitting the fairway should be rewarded with a good lie and it isn’t the golfer’s fault there is a flaw in the turf.
		
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This is cloud cuckoo land.

The only way you can guarantee perfect turf is to close the course, manicure it, let it mature, and then be lucky enough to be the only golfer on the course.

Maybe for Jeff Bezos it's ideal but for the majority of us it's a game played on a natural surface subject to natural defects.


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## Kellfire (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			This is cloud cuckoo land.

The only way you can guarantee perfect turf is to close the course, manicure it, let it mature, and then be lucky enough to be the only golfer on the course.

Maybe for Jeff Bezos it's ideal but for the majority of us it's a game played on a natural surface subject to natural defects.
		
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Divots aren’t natural defects. 

And the fact clubs don’t have the resources to perfectly manicure the course is why I’m saying we should get a drop from a divot on the fairway. 

You’ve basically provided me with the evidence for a drop. Thank you.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			That's actually true.
He has real trouble "seeing" a straight shot other than a putt.

Our slopes, bounces and the wind make it tricky to be as accurate as you'd like.
Often you have to aim over the left rough and hit a draw just to find the first cut right.....
		
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Do you have windmills as well?  Sounds like a crazy golf course.....


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Do you have windmills as well?  Sounds like a crazy golf course.....
		
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Just built on the side and base of the biggest hill in the county..


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## Jimaroid (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Divots aren’t natural defects.
		
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Says who?

You've decided that to be fact to suit your desired outcome.

Divots are a natural outcome of the game being played. I expect you also feel that every stance should be perfect too. Why not take this to the logical conclusion and play all golf on a concrete runway.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 18, 2021)

I think if you hit your ball into the trees and it rebounds into the fairway then you should place your ball into the nearest deep divot and play from there. That would be fair 👍😂


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## banjofred (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Says who?

You've decided that to be fact to suit your desired outcome.

Divots are a natural outcome of the game being played. I expect you also feel that every stance should be perfect too. Why not take this to the logical conclusion and* play all golf on a concrete runway*.
		
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Yes!! I could finally get some length back on my drives!!


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## Kellfire (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Says who?
		
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The dictionary.


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



*Divots aren’t natural defects.*

And the fact clubs don’t have the resources to perfectly manicure the course is why I’m saying we should get a drop from a divot on the fairway.

You’ve basically provided me with the evidence for a drop. Thank you. 

Click to expand...

Exactly. As I said earlier in the thread, that's not rub of the green, it's the result of another golfer's negligence in not repairing it, more often than not. 

I think some people need to be reminded that we play this game for fun, not to punish ourselves.


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## Rlburnside (Feb 18, 2021)

Don’t think it’s that big a issue really, how many of us land in a divot often? I’ve been playing for over 30 years and it’s never been a issue to me. 

I remember one of the few times I did land in a divot I was playing in a Texas scramble competition and one of my team told me to just take it out of the divot, it annoyed me at the time as I know he new the rule but thought it unfair, never played with him again


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## 2blue (Feb 18, 2021)

I've changed my mind on this & my earlier vote.
 I would never have thought I would but, yes, preferred lies all year on the fairway just like New Zealand GC do.
It's played for pleasure & a difficult enough game anyway so why should anyone suffer because someone hasn't replaced their divot or a bird has removed it to get at food. Yes, I'd be quite happy for that to be the rule.


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Don’t think it’s that big a issue really, how many of us land in a divot often? I’ve been playing for over 30 years and it’s never been a issue to me.

I remember one of the few times I did land in a divot I was playing in a Texas scramble competition and one of my team told me to just take it out of the divot, it annoyed me at the time as I know he new the rule but thought it unfair, never played with him again
		
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At least in a scramble only the first player has to play out of it. Right? Since everyone else will be placing their ball within 6 inches?


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## Jimaroid (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The dictionary.
		
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Citation please.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			At least in a scramble only the first player has to play out of it. Right? Since everyone else will be placing their ball within 6 inches?
		
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Could be a really big divot though...


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## Kellfire (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Citation please.
		
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If you have natural occurring divots at your course, I suggest there is something very unusual going on. Anyway, we disagree about something that divides opinion. Any reason why you’ve singled me out of everyone to be aggressive with?


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Citation please.
		
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English Language Learners *Definition* of *divot*
: a loose piece of grass and dirt that is dug out of the ground when the ground is struck by something (such as a *golf* club)


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## Whereditgo (Feb 18, 2021)

Golf is not supposed to be easy! Course designers even put manufactured obstacles there to make it harder!

One of the fundamental principles of the game of golf is to "play the course as you find it".


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## Jimaroid (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			English Language Learners *Definition* of *divot*
: a loose piece of grass and dirt that is dug out of the ground when the ground is struck by something (such as a *golf* club)
		
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Thank you. Now point to the part that says it's unnatural.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

2blue said:



			I've changed my mind on this & my earlier vote.
I would never have thought I would but, yes, preferred lies all year on the fairway just like New Zealand GC do.
It's played for pleasure & a difficult enough game anyway so why should anyone suffer because someone hasn't replaced their divot or a bird has removed it to get at food. Yes, I'd be quite happy for that to be the rule. 

Click to expand...

When I first joined my club we had a LR that you could move your ball out of a seeded divot with the head of your club.
No picking or cleaning it.
This was stopped by the rule makers for some reason .
It made sense imo as there was no divot to put back.
This imo was an error , as it just ruined the work the GK had put in filling them.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Could be a really big divot though...

Click to expand...

Well they usually are if you take another big chunk out of a existing divot.
The poor sod behind who has the unlucky time landing in a double divot as there is nothing to put back if the soil explodes.
Must be bad if your best drive in a scramble though is in a divot hole.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

Just a thought...
We've all been talking, not about the divot, but the hole left by the divot.
The divot is the beaver pelt that goes almost as far as your ball..
So...
The hole is made, ostensibly, by a burrowing animal - humans do dig holes ( ask Tashy)
So, if the hole was made by a burrowing animal, maybe we should get relief after all......


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## Robster59 (Feb 18, 2021)

I was at a rules presentation done by Scottish Golf and this old thorny question was asked and the basic answer is what was written right at the start of this protracted thread. 
When is a divot not a divot?  What defines a divot?  A scrape?  A hole?  Everyone's interpretation is different and in that way lies madness/anarchy/arguments/cheating.
By keeping the rules as they are there are no grey areas.  
Golf is a game where sometimes you get the breaks, other times you don't.  
They are the rules, I understand why from above so just man up and get on with it.  It's happened to me, it's happened to everyone.  How you approach it and how it affects you is down to yourself.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			If you have natural occurring divots at your course, I suggest there is something very unusual going on. Anyway, we disagree about something that divides opinion. Any reason why you’ve singled me out of everyone to be aggressive with?
		
Click to expand...

An expected consequence of striking a soft surface with an iron club is damage to the surface. As such, the courses are naturally full of divots.

You'll find no aggression with me, it's not even a matter of opinion as I disagree on facts, chill out.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Just a thought...
We've all been talking, not about the divot, but the hole left by the divot.
The divot is the beaver pelt that goes almost as far as your ball..
So...
The hole is made, ostensibly, by a burrowing animal - humans do dig holes ( ask Tashy)
So, if the hole was made by a burrowing animal, maybe we should get relief after all......

Click to expand...

I have never seen a human digging a hole with a golf club.
But can’t fault the logic.
The question was framed incorrectly.


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## Crow (Feb 18, 2021)

The game is definitely too hard and these damned divot holes only add to the difficulty.

I think all holes should slope downhill so that, once struck from the tee, the ball will roll all the way to the green which should be saucer shaped with the hole at the lowest point so that the ball will always go into the hole.

You can't get fairer than that, everyone gets a hole in one and there are no pesky difficulties.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I was at a rules presentation done by Scottish Golf and this old thorny question was asked and the basic answer is what was written right at the start of this protracted thread.
When is a divot not a divot?  What defines a divot?  A scrape?  A hole?  Everyone's interpretation is different and in that way lies madness/anarchy/arguments/cheating.
By keeping the rules as they are there are no grey areas. 
Golf is a game where sometimes you get the breaks, other times you don't. 
They are the rules, I understand why from above so just man up and get on with it.  It's happened to me, it's happened to everyone.  How you approach it and how it affects you is down to yourself.
		
Click to expand...

If that’s the case why have they changed other rules over the years?
Stymies would still be allowed.


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## Robster59 (Feb 18, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			If that’s the case why have they changed other rules over the years?
Stymies would still be allowed.

Click to expand...

Different rules, different reasons.  I explained at the start as to why they haven't changed this rule.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Different rules, different reasons.  I explained at the start as to why they haven't changed this rule.
		
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It’s not like other rules have grey areas.
Cause debate etc .
The main reason is we can’t trust people not to cheat.


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## PieMan (Feb 18, 2021)

Easy solution to all this. 

Ball in a divot? No problem, move it out and play on. 

Ball in a bunker? No problem, move it out and play on. 

Ball gone into water? No problem, drop another one away from that pesky water, and play on, no penalty. 

Ball in the trees? No problem, throw it back out onto the fairway and play on. 

A tree blocking your next shot? No problem, just move your ball to where you have no obstruction with your next shot.....and play on.

Duff a chip? No worries, have another go.

Struggling with putting? No problem, move your ball as close as you want to the hole and play on. 

Now if you adopt the above approach and are still crap, then perhaps take up another game!! 😉 

I'm expecting a call from the R&A very shortly with an offer to be on their rules committee.......😉 😂


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## USER1999 (Feb 18, 2021)

Crow said:



			The game is definitely too hard and these damned divot holes only add to the difficulty.

I think all holes should slope downhill so that, once struck from the tee, the ball will roll all the way to the green which should be saucer shaped with the hole at the lowest point so that the ball will always go into the hole.

You can't get fairer than that, everyone gets a hole in one and there are no pesky difficulties.
		
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So you have played Pinner Hill?


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## USER1999 (Feb 18, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Easy solution to all this.

Ball in a divot? No problem, move it out and play on.

Ball in a bunker? No problem, move it out and play on.

Ball gone into water? No problem, drop another one away from that pesky water, and play on, no penalty.

Ball in the trees? No problem, throw it back out onto the fairway and play on.

A tree blocking your next shot? No problem, just move your ball to where you have no obstruction with your next shot.....and play on.

Duff a chip? No worries, have another go.

Struggling with putting? No problem, move your ball as close as you want to the hole and play on.

Now if you adopt the above approach and are still crap, then perhaps take up another game!! 😉

I'm expecting a call from the R&A very shortly with an offer to be on their rules committee.......😉 😂
		
Click to expand...

I would prefer the option of placing my ball where I thought I was going to hit it, rather than where I actually did.
This would cover all eventualities, and I would potentially be scoring 18 strokes for 18 holes every time I go out.


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## PieMan (Feb 18, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I would prefer the option of placing my ball where I thought I was going to hit it, rather than where I actually did.
This would cover all eventualities, and I would potentially be scoring 18 strokes for 18 holes every time I go out.
		
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Go for it - you have my permission!


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I would prefer the option of placing my ball where I thought I was going to hit it, rather than where I actually did.
This would cover all eventualities, and I would potentially be scoring 18 strokes for 18 holes every time I go out.
		
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Yes but you would only tie the course record.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but you would only tie the course record.
		
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I could live with that


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Easy solution to all this.

Ball in a divot? No problem, move it out and play on.

Ball in a bunker? No problem, move it out and play on.

Ball gone into water? No problem, drop another one away from that pesky water, and play on, no penalty.

Ball in the trees? No problem, throw it back out onto the fairway and play on.

A tree blocking your next shot? No problem, just move your ball to where you have no obstruction with your next shot.....and play on.

Duff a chip? No worries, have another go.

Struggling with putting? No problem, move your ball as close as you want to the hole and play on.

Now if you adopt the above approach and are still crap, then perhaps take up another game!! 😉

I'm expecting a call from the R&A very shortly with an offer to be on their rules committee.......😉 😂
		
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Seen plenty of guys that this is their normal game.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I could live with that
		
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Would need a big frame to get 700 cards in on the wall.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

2blue said:



			I've changed my mind on this & my earlier vote.
I would never have thought I would but, yes, preferred lies all year on the fairway just like New Zealand GC do.
It's played for pleasure & a difficult enough game anyway so why should anyone suffer because someone hasn't replaced their divot or a bird has removed it to get at food. Yes, I'd be quite happy for that to be the rule. 

Click to expand...

Because a ball can just as easily come to a halt in the middle of the fairway but on top of such as - let's say - a great big sycamore leaf.  It's nature - and it's a movable obstruction - but I'm not going to be able to move it when my ball is sitting on it.  Is it 'fair' that I have to play my shot with my ball sitting there after a 'perfect' tee shot?  Well yes - in the context of golf - that's perfectly 'fair' - and so I just get on with it.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2021)

Simple def is damage by an non natural object such as a golf club. I know when I am in a divot the person who made it went steep, but I will have to go steep to get it and make it worse. May be the solution is a 1 shot penalty for not repairing the damage you make ..


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## DanFST (Feb 18, 2021)

Unless its a card or comp. I'll move it.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 18, 2021)

Golf is played in a big grassy field which is neither flat, level or even. Some of it is cut shorter than the rest. Your ball will come to rest where it will. Just go & hit it.


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## Pants (Feb 18, 2021)

Bob Rotella had it right with his book title "Golf is not a game of perfect".  Less than perfect lie?  Stop wingeing and man up. 

*Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it, and if you can't do either do what is fair.  But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf.*

Having said that, in casual play, if my ball were on a filled divot hole, I would move it (in agreement with others in my group) for course protection purposes.

BTW, for those clever dicks who like to quote dictionary definitions, you are now aware that the divot is the piece of turf that has been moved, not the subsequent depression where your ball may lie which appears to worry you so much.


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Thank you. Now point to the part that says it's unnatural.
		
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*points at whole sentence*


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## Pants (Feb 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			May be the solution is a 1 shot penalty for not repairing the damage you make ..
		
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You do come out with some corkers at times 

And have you never seen crows move divots, or played a heathland or links course where the "divot" explodes rather than being a lump of turf so there's nothing effectively left to replace?


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 18, 2021)

Who could've possibly foreseen that this topic would turn out this way, ey?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Who could've possibly foreseen that this topic would turn out this way, ey?

View attachment 35106




Click to expand...

It does every year we just can’t help ourselves.
Plus lockdown hasn’t helped.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 18, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have never seen a human digging a hole with a golf club.

Click to expand...

You've obviously never played golf with me then...🤣


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## Crazyface (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why would it need to be a whole club length? The most sensible thing would be to just make it preferred lies as others mentioned, so no question about what is or isn't a divot. You could even make it 3 inches rather than 6 in summer if you want, that should still be enough to get out of most divots.
		
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OK. That works for me. 

This has raced along hasn't it?????


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2021)

I think that golf should be going in the opposite direction. The rules need simplifying and not looking to legislate for further instances of relief for bad luck. Any sport that needs a book to explain the rule book needs to take a long hard look at itself. It may make the game harder to play, and simpler to understand, but it should be moving more towards hit ball, find ball, hit it again. If you cannot find it or cannot hit it from where it is, take a penalty and move on. Golf is played outside on often busy courses, you are going to get no end of instances of simple bad luck but to try and legislate for every one just over complicates what should be a simple sport of hitting a ball in a hole.


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## Kellfire (Feb 18, 2021)

Pants said:



			Bob Rotella had it right with his book title "Golf is not a game of perfect".  Less than perfect lie?  Stop wingeing and man up.

*Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it, and if you can't do either do what is fair.  But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf.*

Having said that, in casual play, if my ball were on a filled divot hole, I would move it (in agreement with others in my group) for course protection purposes.

BTW, for those clever dicks who like to quote dictionary definitions, you are now aware that the divot is the piece of turf that has been moved, not the subsequent depression where your ball may lie which appears to worry you so much. 

Click to expand...

The Cambridge dictionary says that he subsequent hole left behind can be classed as a divot.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2021)

Pants said:



			You do come out with some corkers at times 

And have you never seen crows move divots, or played a heathland or links course where the "divot" explodes rather than being a lump of turf so there's nothing effectively left to replace? 

Click to expand...

I wasn’t aware crows had golf clubs .. their damage is natural.
yeah I have seen divots explode but some attempt to make good would be appreciated.. 
and in the end it was a “ perhaps look at the issue another way”  it’s a subjective topic so there are no right and wrong arguments


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 18, 2021)

I think if we want to allow this we should have pick and place on the fairway at all times, as long as 100% of the ball is within fairway bounds, any doubt and no pick and place. So it rewards fully hitting the fairway 100% and any edge cases are not rewarded.

I do like golf as “play it as it lies” but I can’t see anything between these two working at all.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 18, 2021)

Simple answer is dont replace divots but everyone takes a bag of seed mix out with them and fills in their damage, these areas are then treated as GUR . Win win from a golfers and greenkeepers perspective. But then if people can't be arsed to repair a simple pitchmark what are the chances if them filling a divot hole?🙄


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## Jimaroid (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			*points at whole sentence*
		
Click to expand...

Do you not accept that the natural consequence of striking a soft material with a hard implement will result in that soft material being deformed?

It would only be unnatural if a divot wasn't taken!

Divots are natural the same way a ball falling into a hole is natural, that is normal and expected.


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## DRW (Feb 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



*I wasn’t aware crows had golf clubs *.. their damage is natural.
yeah I have seen divots explode but some attempt to make good would be appreciated..
and in the end it was a “ perhaps look at the issue another way”  it’s a subjective topic so there are no right and wrong arguments
		
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Got to disagree with that.

One Crow, has more clubs than a cupboard can hold


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Do you not accept that the natural consequence of striking a soft material with a hard implement will result in that soft material being deformed?

It would only be unnatural if a divot wasn't taken!

Divots are natural the same way a ball falling into a hole is natural, that is normal and expected.
		
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Your ball going into a divot is a result of said divot not being replaced or repaired by the golfer, not a result if it having been made in the first place. So it's not nature, it's negligence of a human being.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

Or Act of Crow


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## Jimaroid (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Your ball going into a divot is a result of said divot not being replaced or repaired by the golfer, not a result if it having been made in the first place. So it's not nature, it's negligence of a human being.
		
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Well. I'm surprised nobody has mention this yet but here I go... Good luck replacing divots on links courses.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Well. I'm surprised nobody has mention this yet but here I go... Good luck replacing divots on links courses.
		
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Or, if playing in certain countries, courses growing Bermuda grass.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Well. I'm surprised nobody has mention this yet but here I go... Good luck replacing divots on links courses.
		
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They don’t suffer as badly with the issue.. a real links is pretty scabby and moss or clover is deemed to be an excellent lie 🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Simple answer is dont replace divots but everyone takes a bag of seed mix out with them and fills in their damage, these areas are then treated as GUR . Win win from a golfers and greenkeepers perspective. But then if people can't be arsed to repair a simple pitchmark what are the chances if them filling a divot hole?🙄
		
Click to expand...

We have seed mix bags to take out and many do - filling in not just our own divot holes but others we come across.  It has really helped keeping the fairways in good condition - and it is rare to end up on a divot hole. And with so many repaired holes - with repairs by members ongoing continuously - there is no need to worry about damaging a repaired hole.

Of course I can still end up on a bare(r) piece of fairway - when a foot or two away the fairway is perfect.  My lie is rubbish relative to where it might be - and I might complain about my bad luck - but that's the end of it - bad luck - and I don't expect relief from it.


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## davidy233 (Feb 18, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			They don’t suffer as badly with the issue.. a real links is pretty scabby and moss or clover is deemed to be an excellent lie 🤣
		
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Good luck growing moss on a links (sandy) course


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## Robster59 (Feb 18, 2021)

Goodness me.  IMHO this thread is part of the "Wah Wah Wah it's not fair" culture that seems to be afflicting the world nowadays.  If you had to write the rules and then had to connsider all the "What if..." options you would maybe have a different viewpoint.  This particular rule takes into account the machinations and thoughts of people in the 15 pages posted so far.  People look for loopholes, push the limits, etc.  This is cut and dried.  It's in a divot (or whatever you want to call it) you don't get free relief.  If you want to take relief, take the penalty.  Simple,


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## Rlburnside (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			At least in a scramble only the first player has to play out of it. Right? Since everyone else will be placing their ball within 6 inches?
		
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No we were playing a different format team of 3 and alternate shots it was a society day, 9 hole scramble before the 18 holes in afternoon. 

It was a rubbish format.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

Some words of wisdom from Harry Vardon in his book _The Complete Golfer _of *1905*.

_'Make a point of seeing that your caddie always replaces your divots, or replace them yourself if you have no caddie.  This, as we all know, is a golfer's first duty.  If your ball at any time came to rest in a hole where a divot had not ben replaced, you would be extremely annoyed, would say hard things about the other players on the links, and would declare that the course was badly kept'._

Our predecessors on the links of 115ys ago got just as fed up as we on such matters...but they too just got on with it.


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## chrisd (Feb 18, 2021)

What do people say when they land in a tractor tyre mark?


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			What do people say when they land in a tractor tyre mark?
		
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Who's been driving a tractor through this bunker?


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## SaintHacker (Feb 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			What do people say when they land in a tractor tyre mark?
		
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Oh woe is me, fancy driving a tractor through here, the downright cad...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			What do people say when they land in a tractor tyre mark?
		
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Ford 5000 I think...


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## jim8flog (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			At least in a scramble only the first player has to play out of it. Right? Since everyone else will be placing their ball within 6 inches?
		
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We use a club length in scrambles so no problem regardless of the divot hole size.


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## jim8flog (Feb 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Just a thought...
We've all been talking, not about the divot, but the hole left by the divot.
The divot is the beaver pelt that goes almost as far as your ball..
So...
The hole is made, ostensibly, by a burrowing animal - humans do dig holes ( ask Tashy)
So, if the hole was made by a burrowing animal, maybe we should get relief after all......

Click to expand...

Rules of Golf Definitions -  Humans are not Animals.


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Goodness me.  IMHO this thread is part of the "Wah Wah Wah it's not fair" culture that seems to be afflicting the world nowadays.  If you had to write the rules and then had to connsider all the "What if..." options you would maybe have a different viewpoint.  This particular rule takes into account the machinations and thoughts of people in the 15 pages posted so far.  *People look for loopholes, push the limits, etc.  This is cut and dried.  It's in a divot (or whatever you want to call it) you don't get free relief.  If you want to take relief, take the penalty.  Simple*,
		
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I think you might have misread the topic? It was not asking what the rule is currently.


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## jim8flog (Feb 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Simple answer is dont replace divots but everyone takes a bag of seed mix out with them and fills in their damage, these areas are then treated as GUR . Win win from a golfers and greenkeepers perspective. But then if people can't be arsed to repair a simple pitchmark what are the chances if them filling a divot hole?🙄
		
Click to expand...

 We have divot bags by the tee (they get moved from tee to tee). They are relatively small and the idea is that you use up all the bag on that hole and just leave the bag in the bin on the next tee. If you watch the first tee on a Saturday morning I reckon about 1 in 40 players actually takes a bag with them.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Rules of Golf Definitions -  Humans are not Animals.
		
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I'd argue that in a few cases..


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## jim8flog (Feb 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			What do people say when they land in a tractor tyre mark?
		
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 how do you know it was a tractor?


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## USER1999 (Feb 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			how do you know it was a tractor? 

Click to expand...

Exactly. It could have been a badger pretending to be a tractor.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			how do you know it was a tractor? 

Click to expand...

Indeed these new trolleys have some ludicrous wheel tyre assemblies!!


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Good luck growing moss on a links (sandy) course
		
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Links definition doesn’t state that they are all sandy underneath ... so yeah look for the moss it’s the perfect lie


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			You've obviously never played golf with me then...🤣
		
Click to expand...

It’s much easier with a spade .
I have a selection I just need a bag.
Don’t know how far I can hit a ball with a spade though.


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## chrisd (Feb 18, 2021)

But nobody is claiming there should be relief from a tractor mark, done by someone not playing golf


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			We have divot bags by the tee (they get moved from tee to tee). They are relatively small and the idea is that you use up all the bag on that hole and just leave the bag in the bin on the next tee. If you watch the first tee on a Saturday morning I reckon about 1 in 40 players actually takes a bag with them.
		
Click to expand...

Why would players make at effort to that when they can play their 18 holes, hack up the place without replacing divots, repairing pitchmarks and not bothering to rake bunkers and then have a good moan afterwards what crap condition the course is in.....

The average member shouldn't be let anywhere near a golf course as they don't have a clue how to tidy up after the carnage they cause in acquiring their 32 pts with 2 blobs


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Or, if playing in certain countries, courses growing Bermuda grass.
		
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Normally Bermuda is in hot countries and they have divot hole sand on the buggy.
Most are seeded divot is GUR. I do think that is sensible.


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## Crow (Feb 18, 2021)

Yes voters should think themselves lucky that they're not following the late Horace Hutchinson; JH Taylor described his iron shot technique:

_...flashing the bright iron head to and fro above the ball in the usual menacing style it would be plunged, at point of impact, deep into the earth, ripping out large fids of turf, which would be sent hurtling through the air like partridges on the wing._


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Rules of Golf Definitions -  Humans are not Animals.
		
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I have met a few!
There is a museum somewhere where you follow clues to the most dangerous animal in the world.
When you get there it’s a mirror.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Exactly. It could have been a badger pretending to be a tractor.
		
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A crow driving a tractor!


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Crow said:



			Yes voters should think themselves lucky that they're not following the late Horace Hutchinson; JH Taylor described his iron shot technique:

_...flashing the bright iron head to and fro above the ball in the usual menacing style it would be plunged, at point of impact, deep into the earth, ripping out large fids of turf, which would be sent hurtling through the air like partridges on the wing._

Click to expand...

I think I have played behind him.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 18, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Normally Bermuda is in hot countries and they have divot hole sand on the buggy.
Most are seeded divot is GUR. I do think that is sensible.
		
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If you are lucky.

Both in Florida and the Middle East I have witnessed plenty where the divot had not been filled.


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## Robster59 (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I think you might have misread the topic? It was not asking what the rule is currently.
		
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No, I've not missed the topic at all which is what all my previous responses where about.  And the last response I gave was, I believe, relevant to the original topic and the other posts that followed it.


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			No, I've not missed the topic at all which is what all my previous responses where about.  And the last response I gave was, I believe, relevant to the original topic and the other posts that followed it.
		
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But the topic is a hypothetical question about whether a rule should be changed or not. You were stamping your feet telling us what the rule is now. We already know what the rule is now.


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## Robster59 (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			But the topic is a hypothetical question about whether a rule should be changed or not. You were stamping your feet telling us what the rule is now. We already know what the rule is now.
		
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You can call it stamping your feet if you wish.  I call it having an opinion.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

Traminator said:



			The first bit, yeah.

The second bit?   Really?   I have never, ever anywhere in the world seen such a rule as a seeded divot is GUR.
		
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Seen a lot . Mostly for tourists .
Only in comps you can’t move it.
To be honest they grow back in a day over there.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			If you are lucky.

Both in Florida and the Middle East I have witnessed plenty where the divot had not been filled.
		
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Yes so have I and they look terrible.


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## DanFST (Feb 18, 2021)

A guy jumped on our booking a while back, Kept telling me I was cheating because I was using my club to nudge the ball a couple of inches back to check it wasn't muddy in preferred lies.

Was a long round.


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			You can call it stamping your feet if you wish.  I call it having an opinion.
		
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But, no - you still don't get it. If the question is do you think we should have to play out of a divot or not, and your answer is "you are not allowed to drop out of a divot" then that's not an opinion, it's just superfluous.


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## Robster59 (Feb 18, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			But, no - you still don't get it. If the question is do you think we should have to play out of a divot or not, and your answer is "you are not allowed to drop out of a divot" then that's not an opinion, it's just superfluous.
		
Click to expand...

I do get it, and I answered it and expanded on it in my posts.  Let's just agree to disagree eh?


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## Orikoru (Feb 18, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I do get it, and I answered it and expanded on it in my posts.  Let's just agree to disagree eh?
		
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I couldn't disagree with you if I wanted to, since you only posted a fact about what the rule is.


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## Robster59 (Feb 18, 2021)

Anyway, moving on


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