# What is a fair suspension ?



## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

Hello all . Just joined the site hope this post is in order. Following what i considered a minor altercation with my Club President  I was summoned to a disciplinary committee of 3 members  who were all friends of the President and without any real explanation was given 3 month suspension. This included being banned from the club house, banned from playing as a guest of friends who were members and removed form the club website so could not access my handicap or scores. I was also told that I need to carry on paying my membership whilst the ban was in place. I am now suing the club  for this and other infringements, including fees being demanded during lock-down). Does anyone have any idea of how suspensions are decided and if there is some kind of unwritten rules to what constitutes a 1 month ban and what constitutes a 3 month ban? Really curious as is my lawyer! Thanks


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 15, 2020)

Welcome - that’s quite some first post.

I presume you’ve deliberately not gone into details on what actually happened, so I won’t ask. 

I don’t know the answer to your question, but I would have thought it would vary from club to club. I wouldn’t expect there to be some kind of standard that all clubs are required to adhere to, does yours not have a written disciplinary policy of some sort that has resulted in this punishment being handed out?


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2020)

I would suggest removing the name of the club from your post. I would not have thought that will help your cause should anyone from the club be on here.


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## JamesR (Sep 15, 2020)

What happened?
fisticuffs, dippin' his wife, cheating ... come on, we need details before we can advise


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## Mark_Aged_42 (Sep 15, 2020)

That degree of severity - can only be a dress code violation


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Welcome - that’s quite some first post.

I presume you’ve deliberately not gone into details on what actually happened, so I won’t ask.

I don’t know the answer to your question, but I would have thought it would vary from club to club. I wouldn’t expect there to be some kind of standard that all clubs are required to adhere to, does yours not have a written disciplinary policy of some sort that has resulted in this punishment being handed out?
		
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Canary_Yellow said:



			Welcome - that’s quite some first post.

I presume you’ve deliberately not gone into details on what actually happened, so I won’t ask.

I don’t know the answer to your question, but I would have thought it would vary from club to club. I wouldn’t expect there to be some kind of standard that all clubs are required to adhere to, does yours not have a written disciplinary policy of some sort that has resulted in this punishment being handed out?
		
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Canary_Yellow said:



			Welcome - that’s quite some first post.

I presume you’ve deliberately not gone into details on what actually happened, so I won’t ask.

I don’t know the answer to your question, but I would have thought it would vary from club to club. I wouldn’t expect there to be some kind of standard that all clubs are required to adhere to, does yours not have a written disciplinary policy of some sort that has resulted in this punishment being handed out?
		
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Thank you for this. There is no mention in the clubs constitution as to what a suspension should be so I was just wondering if there may be an unwritten rule. General opinion was it was harsh as it was in a private email  not a public spat also the fact that the committee was made up of friends rather than being independent seems a touch unfair. Only didn't go into details as it would be most boring. I suspect you are right in it varying but not sure why it should be. Thanks for the response.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would suggest removing the name of the club from your post. I would not have thought that will help your cause should anyone from the club be on here.
		
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Checked. I am not obliged to protect the name of the club and everything I have said is factual. In some ways it would be nice if they engaged with me as I am currently being completely ignored. Just trying to  gauge opinion as to  severity, seems to be a fairly arbitrary field.


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 15, 2020)

Do you think there should be no suspension at all? Or just a lesser one?


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

JamesR said:



			What happened?
fisticuffs, dippin' his wife, cheating ... come on, we need details before we can advise 

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Nothing quite so  fun alas... Was told that the club had a legal letter saying fees must be paid during lock down, I asked as a member to see the letter was told it was private and it was not being shown to members.. Ended up in a private email to the President with me  suggesting that he hadn't  told the truth and was now hiding (a little more colorful to be fair).


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Do you think there should be no suspension at all? Or just a lesser one?
		
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Canary_Yellow said:



			Do you think there should be no suspension at all? Or just a lesser one?
		
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Canary_Yellow said:



			Do you think there should be no suspension at all? Or just a lesser one?
		
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Fair question. I would have I think accepted 1 month just to be done, but it also seems penal to demand fees whilst suspended and also that i could not play as a guest and locking me out of the website. General view is that this morphed from harsh to vindictive.. Just trying to quantify.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 15, 2020)

Does the time fit the crime? 

If you've just questioned their actions during lockdown and theyve decided to ban you then it seems a bit OTT. However, if you full on went at them in your first approach to them for information, and they felt like you were overly aggressive, then to be honest a short ban might suffice.

Personally, as I havent played long, I'd leave that golf club, cancel my DD and tell them where to stick it if thats how they treat members that ask questions. A 3 month ban for any email, no matter how abusive is ridiculous, and I certainly wouldnt keep paying my membership fee during the ban. Are they having a laugh?!


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## Papas1982 (Sep 15, 2020)

Ok.
So basically you broke or wanted to break your obligation to pay your membership. then didn’t like the response you got.

Without more details, I’m siding with the club here.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			Does the time fit the crime?

If you've just questioned their actions during lockdown and theyve decided to ban you then it seems a bit OTT. However, if you full on went at them in your first approach to them for information, and they felt like you were overly aggressive, then to be honest a short ban might suffice.

Personally, as I havent played long, I'd leave that golf club, cancel my DD and tell them where to stick it if thats how they treat members that ask questions. A 3 month ban for any email, no matter how abusive is ridiculous, and I certainly wouldnt keep paying my membership fee during the ban. Are they having a laugh?!
		
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Was my first thought but it is a 2 course club only one in my area plus all my mates play there so I wondered why i should have to leave.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Checked. I am not obliged to protect the name of the club and everything I have said is factual. In some ways it would be nice if they engaged with me as I am currently being completely ignored. Just trying to  gauge opinion as to  severity, seems to be a fairly arbitrary field.
		
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Up to you regarding naming the club. You are putting yourself out there by doing that though and may add to the file of offences the club have on you.

In terms of disciplinary action, Canary Yellow has it right. It depends on the policy at the club. It is also impossible to say a great deal more without full disclosure. I'm not asking for that, it really should be between you and the club imo.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok.
So basically you broke or wanted to break your obligation to pay your membership. then didn’t like the response you got.

Without more details, I’m siding with the club here.
		
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Not quite. I was merely responding to what was generally accepted was an aggressive email from the club saying everybody had to pay during lock down which they received a lot of complaints about. I had a zoom call with the President and Club general manager ( very civil)  when they told me that the reason why they had sent out the email was they had a bona fida letter from a lawyer saying they could. All I did was ask to see the letter. I never suggested I wasn't going to pay just wanted clarification as to how they had arrived at believing we had no option but to pay.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			Does the time fit the crime?

If you've just questioned their actions during lockdown and theyve decided to ban you then it seems a bit OTT. However, if you full on went at them in your first approach to them for information, and they felt like you were overly aggressive, then to be honest a short ban might suffice.

Personally, as I havent played long, I'd leave that golf club, cancel my DD and tell them where to stick it if thats how they treat members that ask questions. A 3 month ban for any email, no matter how abusive is ridiculous, and I certainly wouldnt keep paying my membership fee during the ban. Are they having a laugh?!
		
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Be aware that if a DD or other regular payment scheme is set up to pay your annual membership fee in instalments, then it is quite possible that you remain liable for the full amount that is outstanding if you choose to leave.  If membership is on a month-by-month basis (unlikely) then that liability may not apply.


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## DRW (Sep 15, 2020)

Can an admin or OP please delete the club name references.

It is going to cause you further problems.

EDIT Your club will have a policy with regards to internet/social media usage...and you are falling foul of it.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

DRW said:



			Can an admin or OP please delete the club references.

It is going to cause you further problems.
		
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I would prefer if it wasn't ( although will  accept if admin think it better) . I am happy to stand by anything that is said and the club can of course defend itself. I thought it would be helpful so any members of the club could remove themselves from the debate. The claim is in the public domain I assure you.


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## Orikoru (Sep 15, 2020)

Three months suspension seems harsh for what you've described. Of course, we only have your side. I wouldn't be paying fees during an arbitrary suspension like that, but if you have any thoughts of actually returning to the club (can't see it myself after taking legal action) then you'd have to. 

I don't think there's any standard or recommended list of suspensions for different offences, each golf club would have their own standards on that I should think. 

Payment of fees during lockdown was quite a hot topic as I recall. A lot were unwilling or unable to keep paying during a potentially difficult time when they weren't able to play any golf. Others pointed out that if people didn't pay fees there wouldn't be any clubs to come back to. No right or wrong answer as it depended on everyone's personal circumstances in my opinion. But if they're claiming you legally have to pay those fees - I don't think it's all unreasonable to ask to see that legal justification. Particularly, as I said, when people were losing their jobs or being furloughed and having to think about what's important financially.


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## DRW (Sep 15, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok.
So basically you broke or wanted to break your obligation to pay your membership. then didn’t like the response you got.

Without more details, I’m siding with the club here.
		
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Yeah agreed.

And why would you send a more colourful email to any club official.

Its not hard to see why action was taken. 

Why I would think you have been given details of, but you have not posted the club version of events.


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## DRW (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I would prefer if it wasn't ( although will  accept if admin think it better) . I am happy to stand by anything that is said and the club can of course defend itself. I thought it would be helpful so any members of John O Gaunt could remove themselves from the debate. The claim is in the public domain I assure you.
		
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Have you read the clubs social media policy ?

Your posts will not comply with it. By all means leave the club fully and then have your say, but currently you are in the wrong.

You are only making matters a lot worse and painting a picture IMHO.

I wish you well on sorting out your problem though and leave the thread.


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## fundy (Sep 15, 2020)

Would like to hear the other side of the story but ban seems excessive on what you have shared with us, also seems out of character with the minor dealings Ive had with the club in the past

Are definitely a few members  on here so be interesting to see  if they comment


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

DRW said:



			Yeah agreed.

And why would you send a more colourful email to any club official.

Its not hard to see why action was taken.

Why I would think you have been given details of, but you have not posted the club version of events.
		
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just wanted to get a view on length of suspension that's all. I understand and can accept you think the club is right and that is helpful. I am really just gauging opinion from the golfing world


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## robinthehood (Sep 15, 2020)

DRW said:



			Can an admin or OP please delete the club name references.

It is going to cause you further problems.

EDIT Your club will have a policy with regards to internet/social media usage...and you are falling foul of it.
		
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Jeez... lighten up.... if its in court it's public info.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

fundy said:



			Would like to hear the other side of the story but ban seems excessive on what you have shared with us, also seems out of character with the minor dealings Ive had with the club in the past

Are definitely a few members on here so be interesting to see  if they comment
		
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I to  would welcome their view. Back to work but thanks for the comments.


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## robinthehood (Sep 15, 2020)

Post no longer makes sense.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 15, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Jeez... lighten up.... if its in court it's public info.
		
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I most certainly don't want to upset anyone and really was just trying to get a sense of quantum on the length of suspension. I will leave it here and post no more


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## robinthehood (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I most certainly don't want to upset anyone and really was just trying to get a sense of quantum on the length of suspension. I will leave it here and post no more
		
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I was talking to DRW, you crack on mate.


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## fundy (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I most certainly don't want to upset anyone and really was just trying to get a sense of quantum on the length of suspension. I will leave it here and post no more
		
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No reason for you not to post anymore, just expect plenty of judgemental views at the extremes


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## Orikoru (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I most certainly don't want to upset anyone and really was just trying to get a sense of quantum on the length of suspension. I will leave it here and post no more
		
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You can't leave it there I'm afraid, I now have to know how the whole thing turns out. Please give us regular weekly updates until the case is concluded.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 15, 2020)

JOG on. 

I think most clubs have lots of "offences" as arbitary, and never seen a list saying this offence is 1 month, this offence 3 months, this offence lifetime ban etc.

It can all differ within a club depending on who offends, friends in high places (or not), length of membership, previous behaviour etc.


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## robinthehood (Sep 15, 2020)

fundy said:



			No reason for you not to post anymore, just expect plenty of judgemental views at the extremes 

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Post no longer makes sense.


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## banjofred (Sep 15, 2020)

Mark_Aged_42 said:



			That degree of severity - can only be a dress code violation
		
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I would "like" this comment more than once if I could.....


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## DRW (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I most certainly don't want to upset anyone and really was just trying to get a sense of quantum on the length of suspension. I will leave it here and post no more
		
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I certainly wasn't suggesting that. You crack on, as me personally I couldn't careless if you say the club name or not.

Was thinking more about the fact you said you don't wish to leave the club.


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## Rlburnside (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Nothing quite so  fun alas... Was told that the club had a legal letter saying fees must be paid during lock down, I asked as a member to see the letter was told it was private and it was not being shown to members.. Ended up in a private email to the President with me  suggesting that he hadn't  told the truth and was now hiding (a little more colorful to be fair).
		
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So you basically called the president a lair and used colorful language in the e- mail, not very tactful, but that length of ban seems excessive and the club would have been better to call you in again and try to resolve the matter.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 15, 2020)

From the little bit of information that has been disclosed, I'm inclined to side with the OP.,  I was briefly a member there and it is a private members club and as such the OP is fully entitled to question the actions taken by the GM/Committee. We don't know the content of that exchange but assuming it was civil then the club is in the wrong to ban a member for questioning club policy.

If there is more (sinister) information about the spat that has not been disclosed then that could put a different perspective on the situation.


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## Rlburnside (Sep 15, 2020)

drive4show said:



			From the little bit of information that has been disclosed, I'm inclined to side with the OP. I know JOG, I was briefly a member there and it is a private members club and as such the OP is fully entitled to question the actions taken by the GM/Committee. We don't know the content of that exchange but assuming it was civil then the club is in the wrong to ban a member for questioning club policy.

If there is more (sinister) information about the spat that has not been disclosed then that could put a different perspective on the situation.
		
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But the op said he called the president a lair and used colorful language so why would you assume it was civil?


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## banjofred (Sep 15, 2020)

DRW said:



			I certainly wasn't suggesting that. You crack on, as me personally I couldn't careless if you say the club name or not.

Was thinking more about the fact you said you don't wish to leave the club.
		
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So obviously not leaving the thread.....


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 15, 2020)

Let’s be honest there won’t be anyone on the committee that isn’t known to the President.
If it’s about fees during lockdown that’s fine , we all have our own opinion.
But you must pick your battles and insulting the president is not wise.
But if the club are citing a legal document as justification for their actions then they should let members see it imo.
If you asked and was refused that’s poor.
Three months for a coulerful email is just ott.
But there is no excuse for your bad mouthing someone in a email.
The ban though?
They are charging you for a service that they are stopping you using, I would be surprised if that’s legal.


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## jim8flog (Sep 15, 2020)

I would also go with the comment from Lord Tyrion about naming the club.

Where I play bringing the club's name in to disrepute on any form of social media would get a ban. It is in our club's rules and regulations.


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## jim8flog (Sep 15, 2020)

Is the suspension reasonable?  is open to interpretation. Where I play one member got himself thrown out of the club for alleging financial impropriety without having the evidence to back it up.


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## jim8flog (Sep 15, 2020)

Also worth noting-  whilst you are suspended you do not have a handicap.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 15, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			But the op said he called the president a lair and used colorful language so why would you assume it was civil?
		
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I missed that bit


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## banjofred (Sep 15, 2020)

This is a soap opera quality thread .....I love it. I should feel guilty, but I don't. 

Short of threatening somebody, I just can't see a 3 month ban. If I had a disagreement with the head honcho......even if a bit extreme.... sits way too much with the old boys club mentality. A reasonable person would just tell you to knock it off or xxxxx will happen. Repeated offenses after a warning......then I could see the ban. Keeps coming back to my opinion about way too many golfers having thin skin. It's just golf.....it's just a game.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 15, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Also worth noting-  whilst you are suspended you do not have a handicap.
		
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Interesting, even though he is a fully paid up member and has paid county subs?


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			They are charging you for a service that they are stopping you using, I would be surprised if that’s legal.
		
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I think we covered this at the time and I can't really remember if there was any end decision. The club would argue that you have committed to being a member of the club for 12 months, you have agreed to pay the fees. What happened, Covid, would then be looked at as exceptional circumstance and they are within their right to expect people to continue to pay. If you don't then they could go after you, problematic and perhaps costly, but at the minimum you would cease to be a member and they could blacklist you going forward.


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

I am not a lawyer, but I would have thought that a small claims court could be sympathetic and consider both the refusal to adjust subs and the refusal to release the letter as unreasonable. It may turn out that the letter from the lawyer to the club could be more of the 'give it a go' nature rather than 'you are on solid legal ground'. As for the email, it depends whether you called someone a bloody liar or whether you said you found it hard to believe that the lawyer would so advise. 

I assume if you are taking legal action, that sounds to me like an acceptance that you will not stay a club member. I don't see how you could after taking legal action, so you might need to consider other fees, like the joining fee.


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## hovis (Sep 15, 2020)

So basically, you said a nasty word to someone important and threw his toys out the pram?   I hate this golf club "masonic" culture


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## jim8flog (Sep 15, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Interesting, even though he is a fully paid up member and has paid county subs?
		
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 Basic CONGU rule to have a CONGU handicap you must be a member of a club. Whilst a member is suspended they are not a member of that club.


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## robinthehood (Sep 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think we covered this at the time and I can't really remember if there was any end decision. The club would argue that you have committed to being a member of the club for 12 months, you have agreed to pay the fees. What happened, Covid, would then be looked at as exceptional circumstance and they are within their right to expect people to continue to pay. If you don't then they could go after you, problematic and perhaps costly, but at the minimum you would cease to be a member and they could blacklist you going forward.
		
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Post no longer makes sense.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 15, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Basic CONGU rule to have a CONGU handicap you must be a member of a club. Whilst a member is suspended they are not a member of that club.
		
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I would argue against that, if I'm suspended but been told that I still have to pay my subs then I think that makes me a member.


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## JamesR (Sep 15, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I would argue against that, if I'm suspended but been told that I still have to pay my subs then I think that makes me a member.
		
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Yeah, you're a member who isn't allowed to use the clubs facilities


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## Bdill93 (Sep 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Be aware that if a DD or other regular payment scheme is set up to pay your annual membership fee in instalments, then it is quite possible that you remain liable for the full amount that is outstanding if you choose to leave.  If membership is on a month-by-month basis (unlikely) then that liability may not apply.
		
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My course is monthly, cancel when you want, and they didnt take payments through lockdown/ course closure.  We're really going for the inclusivity approach and "get people into golf" and manage to do well with the system we have! But I do appreciate not every club is the same!


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## patricks148 (Sep 15, 2020)

can we refrain from naming the club please, if there is legal action pending  Thanks


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## Grizzly (Sep 15, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			But if the club are citing a legal document as justification for their actions then they should let members see it imo.
If you asked and was refused that’s poor.
		
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It is, and I may be missing the point somewhat here, but I am not actually all that sure what the relevance of seeing the letter is.  In a legal dispute, you would surely want your OWN legal advice, rather than just accepting legal advice given to the other party as being fact - in any ongoing dispute, it would be for a court to determine the correct interpretation, not the club's advisors, so seeing what was in the letter is largely meaningless.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			This isnt a unique issue, I know members at other clubs that are annoyed with the clubs stance during lockdown and general theme of taking members for granted.
*** is a nice enough course, the sort of place that 30 years ago you'd have to wait or someone to die before getting a chance being a member.
		
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I fully understand the point, we covered it a lot at the time. It was tough for clubs and members, I was putting the clubs, general, side of things forward to give a little balance to the point that clubchamp was making. His point is entirely fair but we would have lost a good number of clubs had that actually happened en masse.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			My course is monthly, cancel when you want, and they didnt take payments through lockdown/ course closure.  We're really going for the inclusivity approach and "get people into golf" and manage to do well with the system we have! But I do appreciate not every club is the same!
		
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Indeed - one way to aim for inclusivity.  I deliberately kept my post general - but I suspect that OP's club is a full membership club - and not of the pay-by-month category.  Without looking it might be.


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## GB72 (Sep 15, 2020)

Grizzly said:



			It is, and I may be missing the point somewhat here, but I am not actually all that sure what the relevance of seeing the letter is.  In a legal dispute, you would surely want your OWN legal advice, rather than just accepting legal advice given to the other party as being fact - in any ongoing dispute, it would be for a court to determine the correct interpretation, not the club's advisors, so seeing what was in the letter is largely meaningless.
		
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I am assuming that this is a private members club. My argument would be that if the committee sought legal advice on a matter, they ware doing so on behalf of the membership. As such there should be a duty to disclose that advice that the members have, after all, paid for.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - one way to aim for inclusivity.  I deliberately kept my post general - but I suspect that OP's club is a full membership club - and not of the pay-by-month category.  Without looking it might be.
		
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I have to be honest, its working wonders for us! But yes, does sound like his club take a stronger approach than mine. Kind of one of the reasons I like my club so much, its nothing special but they do all they can to ensure members are happy and looked after - and we have the cheapest green fees in the City!


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## Orikoru (Sep 15, 2020)

DRW said:



			I certainly wasn't suggesting that. You crack on, as me personally I couldn't careless if you say the club name or not.

*Was thinking more about the fact you said you don't wish to leave the club*.
		
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Surely that ship has sailed though.


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am assuming that this is a private members club. My argument would be that if the committee sought legal advice on a matter, they ware doing so on behalf of the membership. As such there should be a duty to disclose that advice that the members have, after all, paid for.
		
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The Committee's interpretation of what is in the members interests may differ from that of the members, and a lack of transparency would raise some red flags.


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## Jordanti9 (Sep 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think we covered this at the time and I can't really remember if there was any end decision. The club would argue that you have committed to being a member of the club for 12 months, you have agreed to pay the fees. What happened, Covid, would then be looked at as exceptional circumstance and they are within their right to expect people to continue to pay. If you don't then they could go after you, problematic and perhaps costly, but at the minimum you would cease to be a member and they could blacklist you going forward.
		
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He would have agreed to pay fees based on have access to use the service (the course facilities) if that service is no longer possible, irrelevant of situation (unless they have in their T&C’s that he agreed to) he has every right to either, refuse to pay those months or request those months be carried over (which my club did)

Legally he wasn’t allowed to play due to the course having to be closed, so I don’t think exceptional circumstance would apply (it’s not like an act of god) 

But I may be wrong.


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2020)

Mmmm.

From what you say : 
 - I would think three months on the harsh side, if its simply on pushing why they wouldnt show you the letter and suggeesting they had something to hide. If the language itself, written, moved into personally abusive or questioning their honesty, then possibly not.
- Golf clubs are groups of friends in effect, and effectively when it comes to the committee level or people likely to be appointed to such a hearing (who no more want to be involved in such a mess than a hole in the head), then since they associate together, they are always going to seem as if they are friends, whether they are or arent. 

On the other hand. 
 - If its a member owned club, then paying up to fund your club during lock down, if that is the members decision, it is the correct one. If you dont agree with your fellow members, then you pay and suck it up, or leave.
 - there is no general penalty precedence for this sort of thing. Its so rare, even in golf clubs in general, let alone a single one. Clubs are very unlikely, and correctly so, to have written levels of penalty. So deciding on the individual case is fair enough.
- paying during the suspension can go either way too. Generally likely no written procedure either, as since rare enough in the first place, suspensions are more likely to be of trivial duration or a week or the like, where payment isnt worth considering. 
 - But given the length of the suspension, combined with the requirement that you continue paying, they are probably hoping that this encourages you to leave if you dont like it. That you are suing the club would also indicate you are indeed outside the thinking of the club, and they would like to see you just leave. No committee wants this sort of hassle anyway.


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I would argue against that, if I'm suspended but been told that I still have to pay my subs then I think that makes me a member.
		
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Not really. It means you remain a member, your membership is not interrupted, and that you dont need to rejoin. You are a member with reduced rights.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 15, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Hello all . Just joined the site hope this post is in order. Following what i considered a minor altercation with my Club President  I was summoned to a disciplinary committee of 3 members  who were all friends of the President and without any real explanation was given 3 month suspension. This included being banned from the club house, banned from playing as a guest of friends who were members and removed form the club website so could not access my handicap or scores. I was also told that I need to carry on paying my membership whilst the ban was in place. I am now suing the club  for this and other infringements, including fees being demanded during lock-down). Does anyone have any idea of how suspensions are decided and if there is some kind of unwritten rules to what constitutes a 1 month ban and what constitutes a 3 month ban? Really curious as is my lawyer! Thanks
		
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Have you checked your clubs appeals procedure,  there must be one if the club are following Englands Golfs disciplinary procedure,  if there isn't one they Iwould suggest you apppeal to your county association in the first instance.   A littel supprised that your legal advisor has not suggested this though,  as my understandiong of the law is that you must persue all internal avenue's before resorting tocourt action.


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## jim8flog (Sep 15, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I would argue against that, if I'm suspended but been told that I still have to pay my subs then I think that makes me a member.
		
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 See traminator's post #66

From our club's Rules and Regs.

15.9 A suspended member (including a member whose handicap has been suspended) shall be excluded from the Club for the duration of the suspension and cease to have any of the privileges of membership. These include the right to vote at an EGM of the Club, the right to be nominated for or hold office while being suspended but he shall remain liable to pay all subscriptions, levies and other monies due from him.

I suspect that many members do not read their clubs Rules and Regs until they are affected by them.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think we covered this at the time and I can't really remember if there was any end decision. The club would argue that you have committed to being a member of the club for 12 months, you have agreed to pay the fees. What happened, Covid, would then be looked at as exceptional circumstance and they are within their right to expect people to continue to pay. If you don't then they could go after you, problematic and perhaps costly, but at the minimum you would cease to be a member and they could blacklist you going forward.
		
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Sorry “I did say as for the ban”I was talking about the three month ban not the Covid as there wasn’t an option for the club about that.
But the ban seems very draconian just for questioning the legality of something.
It’s seems ott to me.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Sep 15, 2020)

Obviously very different but on the tour:

3 months suspension for a couple of players for recreational drugs.
Simon Dyson given a suspended two month ban for non-premediated cheating although he did seem harshly hung out to dry compared to the likes of others.
Scottish golf club (Strathmore) was temporarily suspended by Scottish golf for running a competition during covid restrictions. They dropped the comp and got reinstated.

All different to a private members club but in the world of golf they seem more serious events than a colorful e-mail. I guess only a very few will actually know about club suspensions straight away.

If it was, don't want to pay as club closed (very common), can you show me legal backing, expletive/colorful language then 3 months seems very harsh and to still be expected to pay. However, if you threatened physical violence or some other intimidation against president or any member, then I'd say fair enough or potentially soft given it is a members club and no place for intimidation.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 15, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			See traminator's post #66

From our club's Rules and Regs.

15.9 A suspended member (including a member whose handicap has been suspended) shall be excluded from the Club for the duration of the suspension and cease to have any of the privileges of membership. These include the right to vote at an EGM of the Club, the right to be nominated for or hold office while being suspended but he shall remain liable to pay all subscriptions, levies and other monies due from him.

I suspect that many members do not read their clubs Rules and Regs until they are affected by them.
		
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You are confusing suspension with expulsion. You are still a member whilst suspended albeit with reduced privileges.


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## chrisd (Sep 15, 2020)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			Obviously very different but on the tour:

3 months suspension for a couple of players for recreational drugs.
Simon Dyson given a suspended two month ban for non-premediated cheating although he did seem harshly hung out to dry compared to the likes of others.
Scottish golf club (Strathmore) was temporarily suspended by Scottish golf for running a competition during covid restrictions. They dropped the comp and got reinstated.

All different to a private members club but in the world of golf they seem more serious events than a colorful e-mail. I guess only a very few will actually know about club suspensions straight away.

If it was, don't want to pay as club closed (very common), can you show me legal backing, expletive/colorful language then 3 months seems very harsh and to still be expected to pay. However, if you threatened physical violence or some other intimidation against president or any member, then I'd say fair enough or potentially soft given it is a members club and no place for intimidation.
		
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I suspect the penalty is to try and force someone who's "upset the apple cart" to leave the club.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 15, 2020)

Backsticks said:



			Not really. It means you remain a member, your membership is not interrupted, and that you dont need to rejoin. You are a member with reduced rights.
		
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Which is what I said.


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Sounds reasonable for sending an abusive email, to be honest.

Without knowing exactly what was said we have to speculate if a line was crossed but my guess is the OP was being a bit euphemistic to describe it as “colourful”.

I’m also not a lawyer but any legal advice the club received would be privileged so no obligation to disclose its contents.
		
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One person's opinion of what is abusive may not be another's, nor that of a court. 

In a members club, surely legal advice obtained on behalf of the club and its membership, not just the officers of the club, should be available unless something of a defamatory of highly confidential nature is part of it? On a matter such as this, which is probably not covered in the club regulations, that is highly unlikely.


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## slowhand (Sep 15, 2020)

hovis said:



			So basically, you said a nasty word to someone important and threw his toys out the pram?   I hate this golf club "masonic" culture
		
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Don't tar us with this brush. We have nothing to do with this club and in fact are an extremely tolerant society


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## Jacko_G (Sep 15, 2020)

Another colourful email to the club telling them to ram their membership and move on.

Why would you want to go back? Genuinely why?


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## Grantley1988 (Sep 15, 2020)

slowhand said:



			Don't tar us with this brush. We have nothing to do with this club and in fact are an extremely tolerant society
		
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😂


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## jim8flog (Sep 15, 2020)

drive4show said:



			You are confusing suspension with expulsion. You are still a member whilst suspended albeit with reduced privileges.
		
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 from the OPs post


. Following what i considered a minor altercation with my Club President I was summoned to a disciplinary committee of 3 members who were all friends of the President and without any real explanation was given 3 month *suspension*.


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## hovis (Sep 15, 2020)

slowhand said:



			Don't tar us with this brush. We have nothing to do with this club and in fact are an extremely tolerant society
		
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Golf must be your only hobby.  Golf definitely isn't a tolerant society


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## Billysboots (Sep 15, 2020)

If there’s one thing in golf I can’t abide it’s when committees are unwilling to communicate and rationalise decisions made on behalf of the members to those members. If I am a fee paying member of a private club then I expect there to be transparency around decisions, especially when those decisions hit me in the pocket.

I’m not about to condone members sending rude or aggressive emails, however, there are occasions when I can perhaps understand that such emails arise from frustration at what the “offender” interprets as secrecy, a lack of transparency or someone being economical with the truth.

We only have one side of the story here, so must be guarded. That said, this stinks to me of a committee taking umbrage at a member exercising his right in seeking a full and transparent explanation, detailing how a decision impacting on that member financially had been made. I, too, would have asked to see the alleged legal advice which was costing me money.

The failure of the club to share that advice would have the tendency to suggest that the club may have something to hide. As such, I can understand why the OP is rather miffed.

Regardless of the length of suspension I would not set foot in the place again. I don’t think I could tolerate the prospect of the pink gin brigade smirking at me, thinking they had got one over on me.


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## banjofred (Sep 15, 2020)

Golf in the UK is not tolerant. It is if you compare to a middle east dictatorship though.....


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## Leftie (Sep 15, 2020)

Just for interest (or not) an extract from a recent club newsletter ....

"3. To undertake a full review of the Club’s Disciplinary Procedure, and as part of that, to ensure that the procedure applies to all people who use the club premises.

As part of the Disciplinary Procedure review, the Club will be looking to form a pool of members who would be willing to sit on a committee to consider a complaint if called upon.
The current procedure calls on members of the Club Committee to take on this role. However, it can sometimes be difficult to find people on committee who are not connected in some way to the person under complaint.
A wider pool of people from across the membership would therefore help to ensure a truly independent panel is formed to review a case and reach a decision.  

Once the revised procedure has been finalised we will contact members again about getting involved in this capacity. "  

Progressive or what 

I've only been a member of 2 different clubs in the last 25 years so maybe not fully representative, but at both, when the new financial year started and subs were due it was made *100% clear* that you were committing to paying a full year's subscription, whether by lump sum or monthly payments, even if you decided to leave/were asked to leave/suspended/whatever, and renewing your membership was an acceptance of that.  If you don't like it, then don't renew.  Simples!  Having said that however, I'm aware of many instances where discretion was used because of illness or hardship - particularly earlier this year.


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## banjofred (Sep 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			They let you play 🤷‍♂️😜
		
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Yeah....as long as I have the correct socks on......and don't turn my hat backwards.....and have a shirt with a collar......... I'm a firm believer in the club having a standard that must be followed by the members......but I won't ever believe that I am not allowed an explanation of why I have been suspended. I won't ever believe that if the club states that I can't view the legal document that states they can charge fees through the lockdown, that I can't challenge that. It's not right. Right....as in doing something that is the correct thing.  Just doing something...because you can get away with it.....Trump comes to mind......


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## hovis (Sep 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Where are you based?
I completely disagree.
		
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I'm a nomad at the moment.  No one will tolerate me.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 15, 2020)

Can only see the OP's situation getting messy. Was the email sent private and confidential or marked not for pubic display? If not then I think the club could be on thin ice but as I say not paying (or threatening not to) will give them some leverage


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## MrC (Sep 15, 2020)

Context is everything without the full story it is impossible to give a judgement 

In isolation it is very harsh 

However the fact that it is now at legal action stage says that the relationships has broken down completely. Also if the club took this action regular then the membership wouldn’t last. All of this says to me that this is not an isolated incident......


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## banjofred (Sep 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Probably everyone agrees, especially about the hat 🧢 😁...
Bear in mind we only have a brief explanation of the situation at the moment.
		
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Yep, understood. My hackles come up IFFFFF the situation is as the OP has stated. We are not likely to hear from the committee of that golf club however.......so.....back to the soap opera


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## slowhand (Sep 15, 2020)

hovis said:



			Golf must be your only hobby.  Golf definitely isn't a tolerant society
		
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I was referring to Freemasonry


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## harpo_72 (Sep 15, 2020)

I thought as a members club the committee pretty much can do as it pleases provided it was past by the member votes .. so if you don’t show up be prepared for the muppets to start to run the show ..


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Indeed, we're only speculating on what was said.

I've just asked my tame lawyer about this and she's not 100% sure there aren't any specific members club rules but in general privilege would apply unless the officers had already shared the advice more widely than those who need it for their job. (Also caveated that rules might vary slightly in England)
		
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Even if privilege applied, the club is perfectly free to waive it and disclose it to members individually or en masse. It is odd that they sought legal opinion on it, though, suggesting they anticipated pushback that they intended to resist.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 15, 2020)

Do we know if the advice was independent, or provided by a club member who is a solicitor?  If the latter, it might explain some reluctance to release the letter.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do we know if the advice was independent, or provided by a club member who is a solicitor?  If the latter, it might explain some reluctance to release the letter.
		
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Could be they have asked a member who is a solicitor to make sure they get the answer they wanted.
If he’s a solicitor and giving LEGAL ADVICE I can’t see what difference it makes if he’s a member or not.
If it’s in writing and they use it as justification to answer a question from a member then they should at least back up their answer if the member asks them to.!


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## Bermuda (Sep 16, 2020)

I think that you need to recognise that being a member is probably over for you now, would you even want to re join when the suspension is over, if you are going elsewhere then you should go out with a bang and spend the next few days at the club house!


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## Neil Grice (Sep 16, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			But the op said he called the president a lair and used colorful language so why would you assume it was civil?
		
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I did try to keep it civil but it was escalated on both sides. I apologised  for what i said in a private email. There was disrespect on both sides.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 16, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Could be they have asked a member who is a solicitor to make sure they get the answer they wanted.
If he’s a solicitor and giving LEGAL ADVICE I can’t see what difference it makes if he’s a member or not.
If it’s in writing and they use it as justification to answer a question from a member then they should at least back up their answer if the member asks them to.!
		
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I dont want to  stray to much into the other legal issues as the query was really to  get a idea of a fair suspension.  I suspect it was in a letter/circular that was issued by the NGCAA which is the basis of their legal advice *. *


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## Neil Grice (Sep 16, 2020)

MrC said:



			Context is everything without the full story it is impossible to give a judgement

In isolation it is very harsh

However the fact that it is now at legal action stage says that the relationships has broken down completely. Also if the club took this action regular then the membership wouldn’t last. All of this says to me that this is not an isolated incident......
		
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i am definitely a first time offender. After 4 years at the club


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 16, 2020)

My view is that if you want to continue to be a member in the future, then accept the suspension, rightly or wrongly, do your time and return.

Any action you take is only going to make the situation worse and will guarantee that you are not welcome in the future.

However if you feel that you have already burned your boats and there is no way back, then crack on.

It wasn’t the clubs fault that they had to close, they were closed for about 2 months 
So we are talking about a sum of between £150-£200 (assuming average subs paid monthly) 

You may find that the club rewarded those who stood by the club, with various sweeteners , like no subs rise next year etc.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 16, 2020)

Thank you all of this it was enlightening. I really only wanted to  get a view on suspensions but it was very powerful to  hear in the main that my issues with the club , that of transparency, old boys club running things and a ganging up on any member that seeks merely to  receive clarification for a major decision in recognised. "It isn't just me" is a great box to tick. Perhaps once the case has been settled or the court ( it will be magistrates or  county court not small claims ) I can update. Thanks for taking an interest and giving me a gambit of views I appreciate then all even the ones that think I am wrong.


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## Rlburnside (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			My view is that if you want to continue to be a member in the future, then accept the suspension, rightly or wrongly, do your time and return.

Any action you take is only going to make the situation worse and will guarantee that you are not welcome in the future.

However if you feel that you have already burned your boats and there is no way back, then crack on.

It wasn’t the clubs fault that they had to close, they were closed for about 2 months
So we are talking about a sum of between £150-£200 (assuming average subs paid monthly)

You may find that the club rewarded those who stood by the club, with various sweeteners , like no subs rise next year etc.
		
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 No that’s not right it’s like accepting a guilty plea in court when you are not guilty just to get a lesser sentence. 👍


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## Ross61 (Sep 16, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I dont want to  stray to much into the other legal issues as the query was really to  get a idea of a fair suspension.  I suspect it was in a letter/circular that was issued by the NGCAA which is the basis of their legal advice *. *

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From what you have said it sounds very harsh, but obviously we only have your version. As for still paying for your membership during suspension, on the face of it it appears wrong, but the subscription is usually paid up front for the whole year and paying by DD is usually a loan from a financial institution and the club already have the full payment so you are paying for the loan and basically they have not much to do with your “debt”.
 Having read the name of the club before it was removed I know that it is at the top tier of clubs in the area with not too much else available, so I understand why you would wish to return to playing there. Unfortunately for you there is now bad blood between yourself and the management, I personally would feel uncomfortable about ever returning, but if you are of sterner stuff than me I would be trying to building bridges rather than burning them.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 16, 2020)

I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble, 

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....


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## Ethan (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble,

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....
		
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That is the pragmatic choice. Sounds to me like it has gone beyond reconciliation, and if so, fill yer boots, mate. But if he wants to stay, instructing his lawyer is not the way forward. If the Club is prepared to take a step back too, that would help.


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## hombre_paulo (Sep 16, 2020)

Sounds like a costly lesson but tells you a lot about the attitude of the committee. Does that fit with the kind of club you want to be part of?
Taking your situation at face value it certainly sounds very old boys style - not something I would wish to be part of so would probably leave, but would make use of the course until they booted me properly, just to wind em up a bit.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble,

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....
		
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Indeed I do. It is not their club it is ours. Have never had much to do with the committee ( although I always vote when members stand for election.) Have zero interest in the social side other than a beer after a round. My mates plat there and I like 2 courses and its close to my house/business. Why should I be forced out?  Perhaps if I win some of the committee members may find it uncomfortable to show their face.


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## Orikoru (Sep 16, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Indeed I do. It is not their club it is ours. Have never had much to do with the committee ( although I always vote when members stand for election.) Have zero interest in the social side other than a beer after a round. My mates plat there and I like 2 courses and its close to my house/business. Why should I be forced out?  Perhaps if I win some of the committee members may find it uncomfortable to show their face.
		
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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2020)

The OP's club


PhilTheFragger said:



			I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble,

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....
		
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I think you're being bit melodramatic there about the floodgates, but if clubs had done more for their members post Lockdown I doubt we'd be in this position.
.... as for the OP good on him, give people a little bit of authority and some find it hard not to abuse it so I applaud his stance.


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I know it’s not right, but it’s practical

Ok he wins his case, opens the floodgates for other people to demand refunds from cash strapped clubs, some of which are already in financial trouble,

He loses and ends up with a chunky legal bill

Either way, he’s not going to be welcome back at that club

So I return to my first point , does he still want to be a member there? ....
		
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Not sure that there is the need for a lawyer here. It is going to be a small claims case, non provision of services paid for. Small claims are geared towards people not being represented and, in fact, have no facility to allow the reclaiming of legal fees, you instruct a lawyer then you pay but you are not going to get stung for both side's costs. Basically pay your court fee, plead your case and see what the judge says. 

That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.
		
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This


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## Neilds (Sep 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure that there is the need for a lawyer here. It is going to be a small claims case, non provision of services paid for. Small claims are geared towards people not being represented and, in fact, have no facility to allow the reclaiming of legal fees, you instruct a lawyer then you pay but you are not going to get stung for both side's costs. Basically pay your court fee, plead your case and see what the judge says.

That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.
		
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The OP has said it isn’t Small Claims Court so could get messy and expensive


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## Neil Grice (Sep 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure that there is the need for a lawyer here. It is going to be a small claims case, non provision of services paid for. Small claims are geared towards people not being represented and, in fact, have no facility to allow the reclaiming of legal fees, you instruct a lawyer then you pay but you are not going to get stung for both side's costs. Basically pay your court fee, plead your case and see what the judge says.

That said, it is not being melodramatic to think that such a case could have a national impact. Winning the case would then set precedent for others to make the same application and that could spread pretty quickly from those who feel disenfranchised from their club.
		
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Actually the key driver here is not paying or not paying fees. It is about the  right to info as a member and the right to see advice given to a committee but paid for by the members. It cannot be a small claims court because I am not actually claiming a loss or that money is owed I am claiming that they have illegally and penally suspended me, kangaroo court against natural justice and also that they cannot demand fees whilst suspended and that as members club I am as entitl;ed as anyone to see advice which tyhe club acts on. If i am right then we are moving into fraudelant action and matters wil get extremely serious but that is not my intention.


jim8flog said:



			See traminator's post #66

From our club's Rules and Regs.

15.9 A suspended member (including a member whose handicap has been suspended) shall be excluded from the Club for the duration of the suspension and cease to have any of the privileges of membership. These include the right to vote at an EGM of the Club, the right to be nominated for or hold office while being suspended but he shall remain liable to pay all subscriptions, levies and other monies due from him.

I suspect that many members do not read their clubs Rules and Regs until they are affected by them.
		
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Our rules and constitution make absolutely no reference to what the suspension entails and nothing about continuing to pay.


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 16, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Indeed I do. It is not their club it is ours. Have never had much to do with the committee ( although I always vote when members stand for election.) Have zero interest in the social side other than a beer after a round. My mates plat there and I like 2 courses and its close to my house/business. Why should I be forced out?  Perhaps if I win some of the committee members may find it uncomfortable to show their face.
		
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How do the other members of the club feel about the issue you are taking to court? Is this a one man crusade, a small group of you, or are your feelings representative of a good number of members?

Depending on where you sit on that scale will have a big impact on whether returning to the club is realistic. I'd think winning a prerequisite for being able to return, but even then, if it's a one man crusade, I'm not sure the other members are going to be particularly chuffed about the cost and hassle that the club will go through as a consequence.

Also, if it's a private members club, are they obligated to continue your membership? Continuing to be a member might not be within your control.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 16, 2020)

I'd just suggest that, as in life in general, I always advise against exacting retribution when nothing much more than self-satisfaction is to be gained.  I have found that in circumstances such as those outlined by the OP, it is better to accept the judgement of others even although you may feel they are wrong and any penalty applied is harsh and unmerited.  When I have done that and accepted that I cannot change the way others think, and accepted that I cannot change what they have said or done - I find that I can walk away from the situation with a completely clear conscience.

Were I to exact retribution or take other action, then I risk feelings of concern and potentially guilt building up around what I did; and these feelings of guilt will lead me to feeling huge resentment against the individuals or whoever....and such feelings are corrosive to my peace of mind - and that loss of peace of mind will ripple out and impact those closest to me.  And so protecting my peace of mind is, to me, much more important than any short-term satisfaction I might get from any retribution.

It's easy to say.  It's not easy to do.  But in my experience it is the right thing to do.


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## MrC (Sep 16, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			i am definitely a first time offender. After 4 years at the club
		
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In that case it seems harsh. I would be asking for what other suspensions have been issued in the last 5 years and for what (they are unlikely to give you a name but they can say Player A 3 months inappropriate language to a committee member)


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## Orikoru (Sep 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'd just suggest that, as in life in general, I always advise against exacting retribution when nothing much more than self-satisfaction is to be gained.  I have found that in circumstances such as those outlined by the OP, it is better to accept the judgement of others even although you may feel they are wrong and any penalty applied is harsh and unmerited.  When I have done that and accepted that I cannot change the way others think, and accepted that I cannot change what they have said or done - I find that I can walk away from the situation with a completely clear conscience.

Were I to exact retribution or take other action, then I risk feelings of concern and potentially guilt building up around what I did; and these feelings of guilt will lead me to feeling huge resentment against the individuals or whoever....and such feelings are corrosive to my peace of mind - and that loss of peace of mind will ripple out and impact those closest to me.  And so protecting my peace of mind is, to me, much more important than any short-term satisfaction I might get from any retribution.

It's easy to say.  It's not easy to do.  But in my experience it is the right thing to do.
		
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So you just let people walk all over you even if it puts you a few hundred pounds out of pocket??   That's not the 'right thing to do' in my book.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			So you just let people walk all over you even if it puts you a few hundred pounds out of pocket??   That's not the 'right thing to do' in my book.
		
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Yeah what a strange notion.


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Actually the key driver here is not paying or not paying fees. It is about the  right to info as a member and the right to see advice given to a committee but paid for by the members. It cannot be a small claims court because I am not actually claiming a loss or that money is owed I am claiming that they have illegally and penally suspended me, kangaroo court against natural justice and also that they cannot demand fees whilst suspended and that as members club I am as entitl;ed as anyone to see advice which tyhe club acts on. If i am right then we are moving into fraudelant action and matters wil get extremely serious but that is not my intention.

Our rules and constitution make absolutely no reference to what the suspension entails and nothing about continuing to pay.
		
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Then I think that you may have an issue. I had assumed a pure financial claim based on the charges made for the lockdown period. You are then looking at whether the committee has acted outside of the constitution that the club has put in place for it to run under, moving on to matters of who instructed a legal firm and for what purpose, whether the information and advice is protected by privilege and whether the actions are within in the interests of the club and finally you are looking at a civil action for purported fraud. If you are planning on going down that route, put away a high 5 or 6 figure sum, plan for this to take several years, during which time I suspect that the club will at least suspend your membership, be prepared for national press coverage and, I suspect, win or lose, do not expect to be welcome at any club locally. 

Not saying that I agree with any of the above but, from a legal perspective, that is how I can see matters panning out and I do not feel that this is an over the top expectation. Before you do anything, I would recommend that you have a solicitor plough through the clubs rules, regulations and constitution with a fine tooth comb as if there is there is no breach or no case of acting ultra vires then there is no case. I would put aside circa £2000.00 just to cover the legal fees for that element then move on from there. Oh, and be prepared for a counter claim for the use of language towards an official of the club as contained in your email as that in itself could be grounds for dismissal.


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## Slab (Sep 16, 2020)

Is it possible it might not even be as straightforward as a win or lose for either side

Depending on what particular act/incident the member was suspended for the suspension itself might be totally warranted, even if its then found as part of a suspension they are/are not liable for fees

Private exchange or not if I were on the receiving end of someone swearing at me and calling me a liar in my capacity as a committee member (which is an assumption by me to explain the OP saying; _‘suggesting he hadn’t told the truth using colourful language’_) It’d then come down to:

If I was also swearing/insulting etc then its all fair, can't really suspend the bloke
If I wasn’t swearing/insulting then a 3 month (mostly off season) suspension isn’t OTT
Regardless of whether a document exists people can’t just say/do what they like and not expect repercussions if they choose to fling insults around. Fortunately as it was by email it’ll be easy to see if it’s just the OP (which he's admitted to) or if both are at fault


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			So you just let people walk all over you even if it puts you a few hundred pounds out of pocket??   That's not the 'right thing to do' in my book.
		
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As per my post above, you are not looking at at a few hundred pounds. First meeting with a solicitor will be a couple of hours at £250 plus an hour for someone with decent experience. 3 or 4 hours for the solicitor to read through the club rules and constitution, maybe another hour checking the facts of the case against the rules. Would suggest that you will be a couple of thousand pounds into this before the matter has even really started. Once you get to court, and I suspect that this will need advice of council, the bills really rack up to the tune of thousands of pounds a day. Plus court time is hard to come by at the moment, you are probably looking at 2022 before you get a court date.


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## CountLippe (Sep 16, 2020)

A I understand it a golf club is a legal person. A lot of members clubs are run by a committee of volunteers who do not have the skills/experience in complying with all applicable laws and codes.
There are situations whereby these are ignored / avoided by a committee who believe they are acting 'for the greater good' of the club, which a court would regard as unlawful.
They are leaving themselves open to considerable damages.
At my club, a friend of mine was the club solicitor, (for which his membership fees we waived in lieu of legal advice which may be required).  He was consulted on only a handful of occasions over 10 years and his advice was usually ignored.  I do worry.


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## Ethan (Sep 16, 2020)

I think the point that some are making, and with which I agree, is that it is perfectly possible to win a legal case and be morally in the right, but in doing to so alienate yourself at the club to the extent it is no longer pleasant to be a member. It sounds like the President and club officials have a rather inflated idea of their power, but unfortunately they are where they are and unlikely to be booted out even if they lose a case. They might also put out the word to other local clubs. 

So the choice may be between trying to find some sort of reconciliation where both sides give a bit or fighting the case and likely leaving the club.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 16, 2020)

This thread is GOLD. 

This will be my daily dose of popcorn for a while yet. A good few Perry Mason's here.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the point that some are making, and with which I agree, is that it is perfectly possible to win a legal case and be morally in the right, but in doing to so alienate yourself at the club to the extent it is no longer pleasant to be a member. It sounds like the President and club officials have a rather inflated idea of their power, but unfortunately they are where they are and unlikely to be booted out even if they lose a case. They might also put out the word to other local clubs.

.
		
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Post no longer makes sense


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 16, 2020)

I find it strange that a Club President would get embroiled with a member at that level.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 16, 2020)

Final request
We do not want the clubs name published
Please desist


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			So you just let people walk all over you even if it puts you a few hundred pounds out of pocket??   That's not the 'right thing to do' in my book.
		
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It's nothing to do with letting people walk all over me.  It's about understanding what is best for me in the long-run - putting aside any short-term satisfaction I might get...

A few years I was moved off an assignment (I was effectively sacked from that assignment) and the rationale of the boss responsible was I felt to be extremely unfair and unmerited.  Indeed it seemed to me at the time that the impact of being 'sacked' would be very significant and that as well as the extreme upset I felt, I considered that I had to leave the company.  I spoke with the HR Director and she agreed that the way the situation was handled was unacceptable - and she agreed that I had grounds for going down the constructive dismissal route.  However I reflected on the implications of doing so.  On how going through such a process would impact me personally and my family, and what would I benefit from doing so - and by leaving the company.

In the end I decided to take on board the criticisms and understand my part in what had happened - because the victim of such an injustice often has had a part to play, even though that part might be tiny and not justify what happened.  I just accepted being 'sacked' and put it behind me.  I was able to move to another part of the company and just got on with life.  I hold no resentments whatsoever against the boss who 'sacked' me - because I did not pursue retribution.  And in the years since, my company has been extremely supportive to me through some very difficult personal times.

If someone chooses to walk over me and I can do little or nothing to prevent that, then I can, through acceptance and other means, find the strength that means there is no impact on me beyond the knowledge that someone has felt they have gained something - but I have not suffered any long term damage or built up any resentments or guilt  - and can get on with life.


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## Orikoru (Sep 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's nothing to do with letting people walk all over me.  It's about understanding what is best for me in the long-run - putting aside any short-term satisfaction I might get...

A few years I was moved off an assignment (I was effectively sacked from that assignment) and the rationale of the boss responsible was I felt to be extremely unfair and unmerited.  Indeed it seemed to me at the time that the impact of being 'sacked' would be very significant and that as well as the extreme upset I felt, I considered that I had to leave the company.  I spoke with the HR Director and she agreed that the way the situation was handled was unacceptable - and she agreed that I had grounds for going down the constructive dismissal route.  However I reflected on the implications of doing so.  On how going through such a process would impact me personally and my family, and what would I benefit from doing so - and by leaving the company.

In the end I decided to take on board the criticisms and understand my part in what had happened - because the victim of such an injustice often has had a part to play, even though that part might be tiny and not justify what happened.  I just accepted being 'sacked' and put it behind me.  I was able to move to another part of the company and just got on with life.  I hold no resentments whatsoever against the boss who 'sacked' me - because I did not pursue retribution.  And in the years since, my company has been extremely supportive to me through some very difficult personal times.

If someone chooses to walk over me and I can do little or nothing to prevent that, then I can, through acceptance and other means, find the strength that means there is no impact on me beyond the knowledge that someone has felt they have gained something - but I have not suffered any long term damage or built up any resentments or guilt  - and can get on with life.
		
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Being sacked by your boss is a bit different to being denied membership privileges that you've paid for.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Being sacked by your boss is a bit different to being denied membership privileges that you've paid for.
		
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Agreed but if that had been me I would definitely sought legal advice and considered the constructive dismissal route. If I have been processed through something like a capability programme and then dismissed then fine, but if wasn't gross misconduct or done correctly then I'd have fought it. Pretty sure my family would have backed me too


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			How do the other members of the club feel about the issue you are taking to court? Is this a one man crusade, a small group of you, or are your feelings representative of a good number of members?

Depending on where you sit on that scale will have a big impact on whether returning to the club is realistic. I'd think winning a prerequisite for being able to return, but even then, if it's a one man crusade, *I'm not sure the other members are going to be particularly chuffed about the cost and hassle that the club will go through as a consequenc*e.

Also, if it's a private members club, are they obligated to continue your membership? Continuing to be a member might not be within your control.
		
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Equally there may be a number of other members feeling much the same as the OP and are hoping for a win to make the President's position untenable, but who, for whatever reason, are unwilling to pick up the cudgel themselves and so are consequently keeping quiet.

Not saying your view is right or wrong, just looking from an alternative viewpoint.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2020)

I seem to remember members at a club I was at putting something taking the proverbial out of the club or an official on YouTube.  I'm fairly sure that the suspension they got was considerably less than 3 months.

Given the amount of abuse I was expected to take in a previous occupation before I was allowed to be offended by it, I'm amazed that if there was abuse on both sides that the club has followed this through.  The old rule used to be that you bollock them or put them the book but never both; the club here seems to be doing both.  If it can be proved that the President was equally or similarly abusive, I would hope any decent committee would have started on a reconciliatory route from the off.


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## GGTTH (Sep 16, 2020)

This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama


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## Beezerk (Sep 16, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			This thread is GOLD.

This will be my daily dose of popcorn for a while yet. A good few Perry Mason's here.
		
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Who needs  Netflix subscription when you have threads like this 😆


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## Orikoru (Sep 16, 2020)

GGTTH said:



			This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama
		
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It's not like this happens all the time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 16, 2020)

GGTTH said:



			This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama
		
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This is exceptional. Join a club, play golf, make friends, socialise after a round, go home. It is what happens 99.9% of the time.

The politics of a club, on the whole, only tend to affect you if you go looking for them.


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## Grant85 (Sep 16, 2020)

Personal view is that the club have issued a suspension, almost certainly hoping that you would just leave. Ultimately a suspension used to be a harsh penalty when clubs had big joining fees and waiting lists as members would have no choice by to sit it out or give up golf. Many clubs might also ask for a reference from your previous club upon joining. Now a days, you could probably join another club this week and be playing by the weekend. 

I also think if you have called the president or committee member a liar, that is not on at all. If it got to that stage and you didn't trust the word of the club president, then you have to sit on your hands or leave and go to another club. 

People on committees tend to do a lot of things at clubs voluntarily and yes, some people do it just cause they like being involved and like a little bit of authority, but in the main, these are well meaning people trying to do their best for the club and collectively save clubs money on salaries of managers / staff, who would otherwise have to do these jobs. 

All clubs I've been at have done things I haven't agreed with. Occasionally I'll state my case, but as I am not in a position to get involved with joining the committee or putting in the hours, I accept that I let them get on with it. 

With regards to paying fees during lockdown - assuming your clubs runs an annual subscription only - rather than a monthly subscription - then members should pay up. That's certainly what I did as it clearly wasn't the clubs fault we were closed and there is no way I'd have a club to go back to now if all members withheld a quarter of their fees for the lockdown period.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This is exceptional. Join a club, play golf, make friends, socialise after a round, go home. It is what happens 99.9% of the time.

*The politics of a club, on the whole, only tend to affect you if you go looking for them.*

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Possibly the truest post on here, although I think it is fair to add that you have to look harder at some clubs than at others.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Personal view is that the club have issued a suspension, almost certainly hoping that you would just leave. Ultimately a suspension used to be a harsh penalty when clubs had big joining fees and waiting lists as members would have no choice by to sit it out or give up golf. Many clubs might also ask for a reference from your previous club upon joining. Now a days, you could probably join another club this week and be playing by the weekend.

*I also think if you have called the president or committee member a liar, that is not on at all. *

Click to expand...

If it is not true, fair enough, but if he is a liar, why would that be not on to state as much?



Grant85 said:



*If it got to that stage and you didn't trust the word of the club president, then you have to sit on your hands or leave and go to another club.*

People on committees tend to do a lot of things at clubs voluntarily and yes, some people do it just cause they like being involved and like a little bit of authority, but in the main, these are well meaning people trying to do their best for the club and collectively save clubs money on salaries of managers / staff, who would otherwise have to do these jobs.

All clubs I've been at have done things I haven't agreed with. Occasionally I'll state my case, but as I am not in a position to get involved with joining the committee or putting in the hours, I accept that I let them get on with it.

With regards to paying fees during lockdown - assuming your clubs runs an annual subscription only - rather than a monthly subscription - then members should pay up. That's certainly what I did as it clearly wasn't the clubs fault we were closed and there is no way I'd have a club to go back to now if all members withheld a quarter of their fees for the lockdown period.
		
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Edmund Burke's quote comes to mind here...

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Equally there may be a number of other members feeling much the same as the OP and are hoping for a win to make the President's position untenable, but who, for whatever reason, are unwilling to pick up the cudgel themselves and so are consequently keeping quiet.

Not saying your view is right or wrong, just looking from an alternative viewpoint.
		
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How is saying exactly what I said an alternative viewpoint?


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## Neil Grice (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Equally there may be a number of other members feeling much the same as the OP and are hoping for a win to make the President's position untenable, but who, for whatever reason, are unwilling to pick up the cudgel themselves and so are consequently keeping quiet.

Not saying your view is right or wrong, just looking from an alternative viewpoint.
		
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Just me at the moment but feeling is I am not a lone voice. Club Pro has just resigned and I am told disquiet abounds, This is however hearsay only.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Being sacked by your boss is a bit different to being denied membership privileges that you've paid for.
		
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Indeed the two situations are very different - however how you can deal with both is identical.

I suggest that if you can deal with getting (unfairly) sacked without seeking retribution or recompense then you can deal with the OPs issue and the potential 'loss' of a few hundred pounds.  It's all about dealing with life...and the things that life throws up.


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## Orikoru (Sep 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed the two situations are very different - however how you can deal with both is identical.

I suggest that if you can deal with getting (unfairly) sacked without seeking retribution or recompense then you can deal with the OPs issue and the potential 'loss' of a few hundred pounds.
		
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Sorry, I just see them as totally different scenarios so I don't think your analogy meant anything. But I don't want to go on about it for too long so let's leave it.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I seem to remember members at a club I was at putting something taking the proverbial out of the club or an official on YouTube.  I'm fairly sure that the suspension they got was considerably less than 3 months.

Given the amount of abuse I was expected to take in a previous occupation before I was allowed to be offended by it, I'm amazed that if there was abuse on both sides that the club has followed this through.  The old rule used to be that you bollock them or put them the book but never both; the club here seems to be doing both.  If it can be proved that the President was equally or similarly abusive, I would hope any decent committee would have started on a reconciliatory route from the off.
		
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Exactly this .
But some people seem to think they are judge and jury once given a modicum of power.
If the ops account is accurate and the abuse was from both sides , it shows the comittiee isn’t up to the job imo.
When both sides are at fault you can’t just punish one.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2020)

GGTTH said:



			This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama
		
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Just don’t call the President  a liar.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If it is not true, fair enough, but if he is a liar, why would that be not on to state as much?



Edmund Burke's quote comes to mind here...

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."
		
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This is correct as once President you are unchallenged and can do what you want.
That’s not right.
The higher the office the more the scrutiny.


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## Chico84 (Sep 16, 2020)

GGTTH said:



			This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama
		
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I found it amusing and apropos that the episode of Midsomer Murders repeated last night was about a golf club and the politics that went on in the background. Let’s hope DCI Barnaby doesn’t need to get involved in this situation!


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## Springveldt (Sep 16, 2020)

GGTTH said:



			This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama
		
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Been a member of my current club for coming on 5 years now. I couldn't even tell you who is on the committee, who the president is (if we even have one) etc. I book my game for Saturday, go play, have a pint/food afterwards then go home.


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 16, 2020)

I've got a feeling that this thread is gonna become a real forum classic.

Looking forward to read post 16,574 sometime around christmas 2023.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 16, 2020)

Here's a couple of notes from our constitution.


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## howbow88 (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This is exceptional. Join a club, play golf, make friends, socialise after a round, go home. It is what happens 99.9% of the time.

The politics of a club, on the whole, only tend to affect you if you go looking for them.
		
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Yep. I go to our yearly AGM (sometimes), quietly laugh at how angry some members get over trivial matters, and it just reminds me of why I always shirk getting involved in the committee. Sometimes committee members think they have been given some sort of presidential level of office, and the ooze of ego is a pathetic to see. But on the whole, being on the committee seems like a thankless task for which you only get grief. No thanks. 

That said, this situation seems a bit crazy. A 3 month ban for a naughtily worded email? No way is that fair...


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## Grant85 (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If it is not true, fair enough, but if he is a liar, why would that be not on to state as much?



Edmund Burke's quote comes to mind here...

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."
		
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As I said, just my view. Don't see what there is to gain here. The committee made their decision re: subs and it is up to members to adhere to the decisions made regardless of what backs up that decision.

What is the best outcome from calling the Club President a liar? He says, 'yes, you're right enough I lied, don't worry about those 3 months worth of fees.'

If you don't like a club president or committee member, you usually only have to wait a year or two before they are replaced, and as I've said, if you have a real issue with the leadership at a club then either get involved and try to influence decisions from sitting on the committee and putting in the hours, or go and join somewhere else.


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## JamesR (Sep 16, 2020)

I think one problem with committees is that the people on them are little like politicians; they aren’t the right people for the job, but they are the only ones who want it.


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## Grant85 (Sep 16, 2020)

Other point I would make is that other clubs I've been at have had people banned for fighting or causing a disturbance in the clubhouse. 

The bans issued were club house bans. i.e. the member could still play on the course and play in competitions. As I've said, I think the ban is not all that clever a move by the club and is more using a sledgehammer to get the member to leave / move on. I'm sure there would have been better ways of resolving things.


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## slowhand (Sep 16, 2020)

If they are trying to force the OP to leave of his own volition by coming down on him like this, it begs the question what are they trying to hide? Why would a request to view the legal advice given to the comittee that they claim gives them the right to demand the fees for the time they were unable to provide the services the members had paid for?

I'm not saying they didn't have the legal standing, I'm just wondering why they went for the nuclear option so quickly (according to the OP)


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 16, 2020)

slowhand said:



			If they are trying to force the OP to leave of his own volition by coming down on him like this, it begs the question what are they trying to hide? Why would a request to view the legal advice given to the comittee that they claim gives them the right to demand the fees for the time they were unable to provide the services the members had paid for?

I'm not saying they didn't have the legal standing, I'm just wondering why they went for the nuclear option so quickly (according to the OP)
		
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Golf Is all about integrity and honesty, it’s what the game is built on...

So let’s question the presidents integrity and honesty by calling him a liar in colourful terms and see what happens.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Sorry, I just see them as totally different scenarios so I don't think your analogy meant anything. But I don't want to go on about it for too long so let's leave it. 

Click to expand...

OK - but my view remains simply that for any problem in life it's not so much the problem - it's how you cope with it and deal with it.  And you can do the coping and the dealing using the same sort of thinking.  And for me - in most scenarios and for the reasons I have given - the dealing with it does not involve any form of retribution being enacted.  

And that is how I'd advise the OP.  Walk away from the problem - do not complicate it; do not draw it out, do not cause yourself further pain and do not create resentments - and then you can decide if you wish to remain a member or not.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - but my view remains simply that for any problem in life it's not so much the problem - it's how you cope with it and deal with it.  And you can do the coping and the dealing using the same sort of thinking.  And for me - in most scenarios and for the reasons I have given - the dealing with it does not involve any form of retribution being enacted.  And that is how I'd advise the OP.  Walk away from the problem - do not complicate it and draw it out - and decide if you wish to remain a member or not.
		
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Its not retribution, he's asking a valid question and getting short shrift for his efforts.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Golf Is all about integrity and honesty, it’s what the game is built on...

So let’s question the presidents integrity and honesty by calling him a liar in colourful terms and see what happens.
		
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Then presidents and committee’s should ensure they are whiter than white and beyond reproach when dealing with club business.

They certainly shouldn’t be lying or keeping information from members (if that is the case).


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## slowhand (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Golf Is all about integrity and honesty, it’s what the game is built on...

So let’s question the presidents integrity and honesty by calling him a liar in colourful terms and see what happens.
		
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If that's the genuine reason for the suspension, then fair enough (although a bit harsh, I'd have thought a month would have been sufficient), but that isn't what the OP is claiming


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Golf Is all about integrity and honesty, it’s what the game is built on...

So let’s question the presidents integrity and honesty by calling him a liar in colourful terms and see what happens.
		
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Like the honesty involved in allegedly keeping the legal advice from the membership, or the integrity in allegedly responding to the allegations from the OP in the same colourful terms?

I completely understand where you're coming from Phil, but I'm more minded towards the OP's view if the claim that the club are unwilling to release the legal advice is correct; what is there to lose by doing it?  I'm not saying the course of action he took was correct, but given some of the club Presidents I've met over the years, I can't criticise him as I might well have done something similar.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 16, 2020)

It certainly seems that the majority on here have decided that the OP's version of events is the unalloyed truth. Personally I prefer to hear both sides of  the story before condemning the Committee. 

What is clear is that many think it OK to criticise Committee members in quite colourful terms whilst happily posting on a forum where open criticism of Moderators and their rulings is rightly prohibited. 

Is that not clear double standards?


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## Slab (Sep 16, 2020)

If Mr Nicholson taught us anything its that you have to ask nicely (oh, and: you can't handle the truth) 

I'm not sure why, but I get a feeling that didn't happen (just speculating)


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## jim8flog (Sep 16, 2020)

GGTTH said:



			This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama
		
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Having been a member at the same club for over 30 years I can tell you that situations like this are pretty rare.  Where I play often a quiet word in someones ear is sufficient to avoid going to a disciplinary tribunal. I know of only two in that period.

The main the reason for calling one have been because someone was reported for cheating in a comp and on at least two occasions to my knowledge that has resulted in a player either leaving the club of their own volition or be expelled from the club.

The only other expulsions I know of were one for not paying their subs and another for repeated verbal abuse of officials.


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## jim8flog (Sep 16, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is correct as once President you are unchallenged and can do what you want.
That’s not right.
The higher the office the more the scrutiny.
		
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 Where I play the President is a 'figure head' only and has no power.  All matters of discipline are referred to the Captain's Committee which is made of members voted in by the other members. 

 As you may have gathered from my earlier posts we have a well written Rules and Regs document which lays out all procedures in a clearly defined fashion. This document is available for all members to read either via the website or in written form on the bookshelf. In a case like this the first recourse the OP would have is to appeal the decision and the appeals panel is not allowed to have anybody on it that was part of the original Disciplinary Panel.


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## sunshine (Sep 16, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is correct as once President you are unchallenged and can do what you want.
That’s not right.
The higher the office the more the scrutiny.
		
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The President is here to make golf great again


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 16, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Its not retribution, he's asking a valid question and getting short shrift for his efforts.
		
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And so be it.


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## sunshine (Sep 16, 2020)

GGTTH said:



			This is one side of joining a club I am not looking forward to, the politics and drama
		
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You have to realise that some members have a lot of time on their hands and need to find something to occupy it.

My club has recently purchased new white flagsticks. I was chatting to the captain recently and he told me some members have complained that they preferred the old yellow flagsticks. They are the same design just a different colour.

You can get involved in this stuff if you want, but you really don't have to!


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## sunshine (Sep 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Then presidents and committee’s should ensure they are whiter than white
		
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Sadly this is very true at some golf clubs. Casual racism is still rife.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 16, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			It certainly seems that the majority on here have decided that the OP's version of events is the unalloyed truth. Personally I prefer to hear both sides of  the story before condemning the Committee.

What is clear is that many think it OK to criticise Committee members in quite colourful terms whilst happily posting on a forum where open criticism of Moderators and their rulings is rightly prohibited.

Is that not clear double standards?
		
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Double standards by mods also! Doesn't make it right....

Just saying


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## KenL (Sep 16, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Double standards by mods also! Doesn't make it right....

Just saying
		
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3 month suspension coming your way. 🤣


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## Red scorpion (Sep 16, 2020)

If other people are not happy with what they are doing,get names and call an egm.


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## GGTTH (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This is exceptional. Join a club, play golf, make friends, socialise after a round, go home. It is what happens 99.9% of the time.

The politics of a club, on the whole, only tend to affect you if you go looking for them.
		
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Oh I know,

It was a bit tongue in cheek.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Like the honesty involved in allegedly keeping the legal advice from the membership...
		
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That's quite likely entirely appropriate! AFAIK, legal advice (whether at a cost or not) is entirely the 'property' of the requestor/recipient! They may choose to release it, describe it, or keep it to themselves, but that's THEIR choice!

If you are questioning anyone's 'honesty' about itholding legal advice, then there's far greater targets that you have likely had 'intimate' knowledge of imo!


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## slowhand (Sep 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's quite likely entirely appropriate! AFAIK, legal advice (whether at a cost or not) is entirely the 'property' of the requestor/recipient! They may choose to release it, describe it, or keep it to themselves, but that's THEIR choice!

If you are questioning anyone's 'honesty' about itholding legal advice, then there's far greater targets that you have likely had 'intimate' knowledge of imo!
		
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I’m no lawyer, but surely the argument could thus be made that since the advice was given to a members club, it’s the property of all them members, and so the OP was entitled to see it


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2020)

slowhand said:



			...Why would a request to view the legal advice given to the comittee that they claim gives them the right to demand the fees for the time they were unable to provide the services the members had paid for?

I'm not saying they didn't have the legal standing, I'm just wondering why they went for the nuclear option so quickly (according to the OP)
		
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FWIW. My understanding is that (generally) membership fees are a fixed amount, but may be paid in instalments. That's certainly the case at my club and is how I pay. It is stressed, in the agreement, that the 'instalment' method is purely for 'customer convenience' and the total cost is due - even when no play is permitted! My club was particularly generous (imo) and gave 2 month's worth of 'reduction' for this year's subs - something that cost them almost 15% of their sub income, but was a great gesture - typical of their 'business' approach to running a golf course!


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## Ethan (Sep 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's quite likely entirely appropriate! AFAIK, legal advice (whether at a cost or not) is entirely the 'property' of the requestor/recipient! They may choose to release it, describe it, or keep it to themselves, but that's THEIR choice!

If you are questioning anyone's 'honesty' about itholding legal advice, then there's far greater targets that you have likely had 'intimate' knowledge of imo!
		
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If you defend an action by saying that you got legal advice, you kinda have to show what it said. And if that advice was obtained on behalf of, and paid by, a members club, surely the members have a right to see.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2020)

slowhand said:



			...surely the argument could thus be made that since the advice was given to a members club, it’s the property of all them members, and so the OP was entitled to see it
		
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But was it?
You'd have to see Rules/Regs of Committee and determine how that advice was commissioned/received to determine whose 'property' it was! Personally, I'd believe it's likely to be 'priviledged' info - only available to certain areas of the club. However, it seems the gist of it has been made available to the OP - even if not accepted by him!


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If you defend an action by saying that you got legal advice, you kinda have to show what it said. And if that advice was obtained on behalf of, and paid by, a members club, surely the members have a right to see.
		
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Depends on what Club Rules/Constitution say! And may not have been (specifically) paid for by 'The Club' either.
From what I percieve has happened (and I may be wrong), it seems to me that the OP reacted badly to being told he had to pay for the 'missed' period and his objections escalated out of control. I'm obviously not privy to the conversation, but swearing at the President of the club does not seem a smart thing to do! While it seems rather harsh, I believe accepting the 3 months suspension would be a far simpler/cheaper 'result' than getting lawyers involved! I'm pretty certain that the admissions on here would mean he'd lose a case for 'excess punishment' and, as i've previously stated, the obligation to continue paying subs, even though the coursed was closed by Covid restrictions, is fundamental to every 'deferred payment plan' that I know of!

So to the OP...Suck it up; pay the money; take the punishment! It doesn't seem, to me, that you are the sort to get involved with Club administration, but you are quite entitled to garner support for a 'member revolution' at the next AGM!


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's quite likely entirely appropriate! AFAIK, *legal advice (whether at a cost or not) is entirely the 'property' of the requestor/recipient!* They may choose to release it, describe it, or keep it to themselves, but that's THEIR choice!

If you are questioning anyone's 'honesty' about itholding legal advice, then there's far greater targets that you have likely had 'intimate' knowledge of imo!
		
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slowhand said:



			I’m no lawyer, but surely the argument could thus be made that *since the advice was given to a members club, it’s the property of all them members*, and so the OP was entitled to see it
		
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Ethan said:



			If you defend an action by saying that you got legal advice, you kinda have to show what it said. And *if that advice was obtained on behalf of, and paid by, a members club, surely the members have a right to see.*

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The second & third quotes are where I'm coming from. 

The other point I'd make is that I'd have a couple of bob on the fact that any club in the country had some members who were not happy about paying fees for a service they weren't currently getting.  If there is legal advice available to the club that proves the members are liable for subs despite the lack of service, why not simply pin it to the notice board, or email it to the members, and put the mutiny down before it starts; would that not be acting in the club's best interest by dispelling any misunderstanding?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The second & third quotes are where I'm coming from.

The other point I'd make is that I'd have a couple of bob on the fact that any club in the country had some members who were not happy about paying fees for a service they weren't currently getting.  If there is legal advice available to the club that proves the members are liable for subs despite the lack of service, why not simply pin it to the notice board, or email it to the members, and put the mutiny down before it starts; would that not be acting in the club's best interest by dispelling any misunderstanding?
		
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And  do we know that the Committee didn't do any of that?

So far we have heard only one very limited version of events.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The second & third quotes are where I'm coming from.
...
		
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See Post 182


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 16, 2020)

Have you considered contacting The President and saying we both may have done/ said things in haste which we both have later regret. 

Explain you were out of order for what you said but in the heat of the moment and apologise. Explain what you want from the situation and want an amicable resolution.


Also you do not want to leave the Club, if this is the case, and try and offer an olive branch, perhaps through gritted teeth.

Somebody has to make the first move and if there is no movement/ attempt to meet halfway you have done your best and then consider your options after you have explained your position


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## KenL (Sep 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The club have already suspended him, what's the point of any of that? 
They'll just say thanks, see you when your suspension ends.
		
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Probably true but it might be that what they really want is an apology.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Golf Is all about integrity and honesty, it’s what the game is built on...

So let’s question the presidents integrity and honesty by calling him a liar in colourful terms and see what happens.
		
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Yes I see your point.
But the President should quieten him by proving he wasn’t lying instead of using his mates on the comittiee to get rid of his accuser.
That’s what Dictators do.


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## Chico84 (Sep 16, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Have you considered contacting The President and saying we both may have done/ said things in haste which we both have later regret.

Explain you were out of order for what you said but in the heat of the moment and apologise. Explain what you want from the situation and want an amicable resolution.


Also you do not want to leave the Club, if this is the case, and try and offer an olive branch, perhaps through gritted teeth.

Somebody has to make the first move and if there is no movement/ attempt to meet halfway you have done your best and then consider your options after you have explained your position
		
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This is far too sensible a suggestion


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## Green Bay Hacker (Sep 16, 2020)

I might have missed it but why was the president the recipient of the irate email?

Surely the president is just a figurehead at the club and it is the main committee that make the decisions and take the flak or am I just basing that on my own club.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			I might have missed it but why was the president the recipient of the irate email?

Surely the president is just a figurehead at the club and it is the main committee that make the decisions and take the flak or am I just basing that on my own club.
		
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Good question.
He might be chair of comittiee. Or he was the one delivering the brush off over the legal advice.


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## Springveldt (Sep 16, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Golf Is all about integrity and honesty, it’s what the game is built on...

So let’s question the presidents integrity and honesty by calling him a liar in colourful terms and see what happens.
		
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Just because he's a president doesn't make him immune from "stretching the truth". Just need to look no further than that orange buffoon across the pond.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			I might have missed it but why was the president the recipient of the irate email?

Surely the president is just a figurehead at the club and it is the main committee that make the decisions and take the flak or am I just basing that on my own club.
		
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See one of the OP's posts below, should explain it. 



Neil Grice said:



			Not quite. I was merely responding to what was generally accepted was an aggressive email from the club saying everybody had to pay during lock down which they received a lot of complaints about. I had a zoom call with the President and Club general manager ( very civil)  when they told me that the reason why they had sent out the email was they had a bona fida letter from a lawyer saying they could. All I did was ask to see the letter. I never suggested I wasn't going to pay just wanted clarification as to how they had arrived at believing we had no option but to pay.
		
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## 3offTheTee (Sep 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The club have already suspended him, what's the point of any of that?
They'll just say thanks, see you when your suspension ends.
		
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Trami 

He will never know if he does not try. It all depends on what he wants and what the Club wants. They will not wish to have the publicity, possibly local paper.

The president may regret how things have evolved. It has been said there are always 2 sides to most disputes and if he has tried everything possible to resolve the situation he will come out with his head held high.


We all react differently to situations; from my experience I feel that is a preferable option.


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## Ross61 (Sep 16, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Have you considered contacting The President and saying we both may have done/ said things in haste which we both have later regret.

Explain you were out of order for what you said but in the heat of the moment and apologise. Explain what you want from the situation and want an amicable resolution.


Also you do not want to leave the Club, if this is the case, and try and offer an olive branch, perhaps through gritted teeth.

Somebody has to make the first move and if there is no movement/ attempt to meet halfway you have done your best and then consider your options after you have explained your position
		
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The OP has already stated in an earlier post:

 “I did try to keep it civil but it was escalated on both sides. I apologised for what i said in a private email. There was disrespect on both sides.”


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## Robster59 (Sep 16, 2020)

What an interesting thread.  I think that each club has their own rules about how to deal with disciplinary procedures, they have their own constitutions and management structure as to who makes the decisions but here's my thoughts, for what they're worth. 

If it is a members club, and the club say they have taken legal advice about paying the membership, and use that for coercing/forcing/demanding the members pay their membership, then I would say the members have the right to have that advice shared with them.
The OP hasn't really done themselves any favours by getting personal/abusive and calling the integrity of the President into question.  And in writing.  That's an example of where my old boss would write an email, save it, and then come back the next day to see if he still wanted to send it.  Often he didn't.
The President sounds like he is being thin-skinned.  When I was Vice Captain, a member wanted to see us about a dispute he had.  I explained part of the situation to him and he pretty much called me a liar.  I let it by as I knew he was annoyed he wasn't getting his way (he was in the wrong btw) and was trying to get a rise out of me.  I certainly wouldn't have banned him for three months.
By the sound of it the club haven't handled it well in what they have done either.  Call you in and show you the document, or give you the chance to apologies, or just talk it over.  
We have had to call people in for infringements, some of which I would say have been worse than the OP but in most instances the individual has know what they have done has been wrong and it was left at that.  In one instance there could almost certainly have been a ban but he showed contrition so it was simply a warning. 
At the end of the day, if you have an issue, there are ways to handle it.  Making inflammatory and unfounded allegations then you really have to expect a reaction.  Maybe that's what you were after but just didn't expect the reaction you got.


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## NeilG (Sep 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's nothing to do with letting people walk all over me.  It's about understanding what is best for me in the long-run - putting aside any short-term satisfaction I might get...

A few years I was moved off an assignment (I was effectively sacked from that assignment) and the rationale of the boss responsible was I felt to be extremely unfair and unmerited.  Indeed it seemed to me at the time that the impact of being 'sacked' would be very significant and that as well as the extreme upset I felt, I considered that I had to leave the company.  I spoke with the HR Director and she agreed that the way the situation was handled was unacceptable - and she agreed that I had grounds for going down the constructive dismissal route.  However I reflected on the implications of doing so.  On how going through such a process would impact me personally and my family, and what would I benefit from doing so - and by leaving the company.

In the end I decided to take on board the criticisms and understand my part in what had happened - because the victim of such an injustice often has had a part to play, even though that part might be tiny and not justify what happened.  I just accepted being 'sacked' and put it behind me.  I was able to move to another part of the company and just got on with life.  I hold no resentments whatsoever against the boss who 'sacked' me - because I did not pursue retribution.  And in the years since, my company has been extremely supportive to me through some very difficult personal times.

If someone chooses to walk over me and I can do little or nothing to prevent that, then I can, through acceptance and other means, find the strength that means there is no impact on me beyond the knowledge that someone has felt they have gained something - but I have not suffered any long term damage or built up any resentments or guilt  - and can get on with life.
		
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Some really good advice in this. Sometimes we can get fixated on proving that we were in the right, when that isn't always the optimum route to follow.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The club have already suspended him, what's the point of any of that?
They'll just say thanks, see you when your suspension ends.
		
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As @3offTheTee says - that ain't necessarily so...

We can all, at times, forget our part in any disagreement or conflict - and sometimes it really helps if look at _our _part - not the part of the other party - and with some humility admit our fault to the other party.  It is then up to the other party to decide whether or not to do likewise - but unless someone takes a lead (and I suggest that that's unlikely to be the club) then nothing will happen.   And the wound will fester and the pain, resentments and anger will worsen.

Just my experience.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I see your point.
But the President should quieten him by proving he wasn’t lying instead of using his mates on the comittiee to get rid of his accuser.
That’s what Dictators do.
		
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Member gets into heated argument with President of club. Member gets suspended by club (regardless if the Committee are mates, they are probably voted into that Committee by members and ultimately feel the member over stepped the mark, and are not bothered if they never rejoin again). Member takes club to court. Member goes online to give his version of events, initially naming club, potentially harming their reputation.

Now, perhaps members at this club are about to revolt against a terrible Committee and nasty President. However, I have my suspicions that this is a particular member that most clubs would rather was not at their club. 

So, I think it is harsh for anyone to assume the President is some sort of Dictator (not all Presidents are like Trump)

But, I agree, I'm loving the drama


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## Neil Grice (Sep 17, 2020)

Slab said:



			Is it possible it might not even be as straightforward as a win or lose for either side

Depending on what particular act/incident the member was suspended for the suspension itself might be totally warranted, even if its then found as part of a suspension they are/are not liable for fees

Private exchange or not if I were on the receiving end of someone swearing at me and calling me a liar in my capacity as a committee member (which is an assumption by me to explain the OP saying; _‘suggesting he hadn’t told the truth using colourful language’_) It’d then come down to:

If I was also swearing/insulting etc then its all fair, can't really suspend the bloke
If I wasn’t swearing/insulting then a 3 month (mostly off season) suspension isn’t OTT
Regardless of whether a document exists people can’t just say/do what they like and not expect repercussions if they choose to fling insults around. Fortunately as it was by email it’ll be easy to see if it’s just the OP (which he's admitted to) or if both are at fault[/QUO
		
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MetalMickie said:



			It certainly seems that the majority on here have decided that the OP's version of events is the unalloyed truth. Personally I prefer to hear both sides of  the story before condemning the Committee.

What is clear is that many think it OK to criticise Committee members in quite colourful terms whilst happily posting on a forum where open criticism of Moderators and their rulings is rightly prohibited.

Is that not clear double standards?
		
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I am absolutely adamant that the clubs side should be heard before decisions are made. I named the club in the hope of getting some feedback as currently my dispute is being hushed up and i suspect many members don't know the club is being sued. The club are currently refusing to even confirm my ban will be lifted as at 1st Oct when it is up.


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## Siolag (Sep 17, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I am absolutely adamant that the clubs side should be heard before decisions are made. I named the club in the hope of getting some feedback as currently my dispute is being hushed up and i suspect many members don't know the club is being sued. The club are currently refusing to even confirm my ban will be lifted as at 1st Oct when it is up.
		
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You are taking the club to court and are also hoping that your suspension will be lifted? Have you informed the club that this is the route you are taking? If so, then are you really expecting to be back there any time soon?


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## Slab (Sep 17, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I am absolutely adamant that the clubs side should be heard before decisions are made. I named the club* in the hope of getting some feedback as currently my dispute is being hushed up *and i suspect many members don't know the club is being sued. The club are currently refusing to even confirm my ban will be lifted as at 1st Oct when it is up.
		
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You say 'hushed up' but might they be maintaining a silence _only because _you’re taking a legal route, Is it not the correct thing for them to do under those circumstances so that they don’t compromise proceedings with ongoing fruitless discussions ?


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## Jacko_G (Sep 17, 2020)

Why are so many people on here blowing smoke up the backside of the "president". They're just a person at a golf club not someone to be in awe of in any shape or form.

Can't wait to come in from work tonight to pick up on the latest twists and drama's of GM SuspensionGate!!!!


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Why are so many people on here blowing smoke up the backside of the "president". They're just a person at a golf club not someone to be in awe of in any shape or form.

If they act and conduct themselves as a tit - treat them like a tit. (basing on the fact that I read the "president" sent derogatory remarks also)

Can't wait to come in from work tonight to pick up on the latest twists and drama's of GM SuspensionGate!!!!
		
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Who is blowing smoke up his backside? Some are just saying, maybe, just maybe, he is not actually a tit!?


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## Jacko_G (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Who is blowing smoke up his backside? Some are just saying, maybe, just maybe, he is not actually a tit!?
		
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Perhaps.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Member gets into heated argument with President of club. Member gets suspended by club (regardless if the Committee are mates, they are probably voted into that Committee by members and ultimately feel the member over stepped the mark, and are not bothered if they never rejoin again). Member takes club to court. Member goes online to give his version of events, initially naming club, potentially harming their reputation.

Now, perhaps members at this club are about to revolt against a terrible Committee and nasty President. However, I have my suspicions that this is a particular member that most clubs would rather was not at their club.

So, I think it is harsh for anyone to assume the President is some sort of Dictator (not all Presidents are like Trump)

But, I agree, I'm loving the drama 

Click to expand...

Not sure i can agree i have been a loyal member of 4 years never any trouble. I just don't like secrecy or bullies and feel I should stand up to them. it is a members club not the Presidents. Have currently spent over £2000 on this and likely £2k more to get to court . I see this as a principled stance on a honest question. I don't see myself as a trouble maker but also i am not going to role over and see the club managed in this way.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 17, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Have you considered contacting The President and saying we both may have done/ said things in haste which we both have later regret.

Explain you were out of order for what you said but in the heat of the moment and apologise. Explain what you want from the situation and want an amicable resolution.


Also you do not want to leave the Club, if this is the case, and try and offer an olive branch, perhaps through gritted teeth.

Somebody has to make the first move and if there is no movement/ attempt to meet halfway you have done your best and then consider your options after you have explained your position
		
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Already done I agreed to drop my complaint against his attack on me. He refused and insisted on the complaint being dealt with.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 17, 2020)

Siolag said:



			You are taking the club to court and are also hoping that your suspension will be lifted? Have you informed the club that this is the route you are taking? If so, then are you really expecting to be back there any time soon?
		
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I have served my suspension all 3 months of it.In full. I am going to court on there refusal to issue the legal advice they claim to have . As a members club we are entitled to see this. I am also going to court over being forced to pay fees whilst suspended which we believe to be illegal as is the suspension as it was meted out by what everyone even the club now agree was a unfair process.


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## bobmac (Sep 17, 2020)

Why not get revenge by letting the presidents tyres down in the car park, it will save you a fortune.
Seriously though...
If this goes to court and you lose, will you have to pay their fees too?
At the end, what do you want to happen?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Siolag said:



			You are taking the club to court and are also hoping that your suspension will be lifted? Have you informed the club that this is the route you are taking? If so, then are you really expecting to be back there any time soon?
		
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If he’s paying subscriptions and the 3 month ban is complete, why shouldn’t he expect to be able to play?


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## Slab (Sep 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



*Why are so many people on here blowing smoke up the backside of the "president".* They're just a person at a golf club not someone to be in awe of in any shape or form.

Can't wait to come in from work tonight to pick up on the latest twists and drama's of GM SuspensionGate!!!!
		
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I think the opposite, some posters have hung _El Presidente_  out to dry based only on one side of the events. it needs a little perspective for balance. The President could be at fault but it could equally be the OP 

There are posts saying _'if the OP version is true then blah blah power hungry blah blah too severe etc_... but not many offer up the flip side of what if its the OP at fault


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## Siolag (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If he’s paying subscriptions and the 3 month ban is complete, why shouldn’t he expect to be able to play?
		
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Because the club might very well decide he’s not worth the trouble and give him a further ban.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Siolag said:



			Because the club might very well decide he’s not worth the trouble and give him a further ban.
		
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On what grounds? Isn’t he already taking them to court for not following correct procedures?

And ask him to keep paying


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## Neil Grice (Sep 17, 2020)

Siolag said:



			Because the club might very well decide he’s not worth the trouble and give him a further ban.
		
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May i ask on what grounds? The case i have has what is termed legal merit i.e i have a case, I am not prepared to ignore injustice or unfair tactics  just to get back to playing golf. That cannot be right


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## Jacko_G (Sep 17, 2020)

Slab said:



			I think the opposite, some posters have hung _El Presidente_  out to dry based only on one side of the events. it needs a little perspective for balance. The President could be at fault but it could equally be the OP

There are posts saying _'if the OP version is true then blah blah power hungry blah blah too severe etc_... but not many offer up the flip side of what if its the OP at fault
		
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Again perhaps you are correct but they're only a figurehead at a GC not a God.


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## Siolag (Sep 17, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			May i ask on what grounds? The case i have has what is termed legal merit i.e i have a case, I am not prepared to ignore injustice or unfair tactics  just to get back to playing golf. That cannot be right
		
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Aren’t there other members of your club on here? Has your club got a social media policy? Are you totally in line with that? 

Have you paid all of your fees? 

If, as you say, it’s got vindictive, they might well turn round and say that they just simply don’t want you as a member any more, and I’m not really sure what you could do about that save for adding it to the court case.


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## GB72 (Sep 17, 2020)

I am interested in what can be gained from the legal action. If the club is incorporated then it is a separate legal entity from the members and so any legal advice obtained is privileged and you have no entitlement to see the same. If the club is unincorporated, it is not a legal entity and so you can only only take action against the individual members. If you have commenced legal action against the club as you state then the club has to be a legal entity separate from the members and you have no entitlement to see privileged advice obtained by that entity. 

With regards the payments lockdown, a simple small claims matter.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Siolag said:



			Aren’t there other members of your club on here? Has your club got a social media policy? Are you totally in line with that?

Have you paid all of your fees?

If, as you say, it’s got vindictive, they might well turn round and say that they just simply don’t want you as a member any more, and I’m not really sure what you could do about that save for adding it to the court case.
		
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So you are basically suggesting he’s a troublemaker and best for them if they just find a way to get rid of him and make this all go away!

I have no idea if he is telling the truth or not or if he’ll win his case or not, but it’s his money he’s risking and he (or anyone) shouldn’t be expected to be badly treated (in their eyes) and simply go away and allow themselves to be trodden on.


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 17, 2020)

I must say, although I understand the OP has a valid point of principle here in relation to how the club has been run (based on his version), I don't really see why it's worth spending £000s on. 

Having soaked all the information in, there are a few things that don't really make sense:

1. If a few hundred quid during lockdown are so important to the OP, why then are the £000s litigation will cost worth it?
2. Does a lack of transparency over the way the committee have made a decision really matter? They have been elected by the members to make decisions on behalf of the membership. A club would not work if every member got a say on every decision. Is the OPs suggestion that they are not acting in the interests of the club (i.e. the members)?
3. If the club isn't being run at a profit, how does the OP expect the club to recoup the losses from members not paying during the lockdown? Would the OP prefer a reduction in quality of the golf offering, more visitors clogging up the course, or higher fees in the future?

Pride can manifest itself in ugly ways - does the OPs lawyer really believe there is a valid case here? I suspect the OP probably does have a reasonable point of principle in relation to the way the committee has made decisions, but I think he can no longer see the wood from the trees on what really matters here. The committee should be held to account, but a member taking the club to court over something that seems to me relatively trivial in the grand scheme of what has happened to the world in 2020 is nuts; is this just a personal vendetta that's got out of hand?


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 17, 2020)

If it’s a private members club, I can easily see the OP not being asked to renew his membership at the next renewal time. 
As for the whys and wherefores , I reserve judgement suffice to say that as a member of a private members club I wouldn’t be too pleased with another member posting about my club on a public forum and taking legal action over something some may perceive as trivial in the grand scheme of things.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am interested in what can be gained from the legal action. If the club is incorporated then it is a separate legal entity from the members and so any legal advice obtained is privileged and you have no entitlement to see the same. If the club is unincorporated, it is not a legal entity and so you can only only take action against the individual members. If you have commenced legal action against the club as you state then the club has to be a legal entity separate from the members and you have no entitlement to see privileged advice obtained by that entity.

With regards the payments lockdown, a simple small claims matter.
		
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Interesting points. I have no legal experience, but I did wonder what would happen if individual members kept demanding to see certain types of paperwork the Committee were in possession of. Surely members simply elect a Committee to take responsibility for that, and if they don't trust them, then ultimately they can hopefully vote for a different Committee.

I pay a Sky subscription. Very expensive (double by golf membership over the year). But, I doubt I can call Sky and demand to see every legal document they are in possession off to ensure my payments are fair. 

It is in the interest of the Committee to provide clarity to members. That doesn't necessarily mean every individual member will be happy with that, and sadly sometimes their reactions can be fairly extreme.

I'm assuming that when it comes to membership renewal, then I'd be shocked if the OP would join again with all this going on. But, if he does, I'm sure the Club has the right to not accept someone as a member, albeit not sure where that leaves them on the grounds of discrimination? If they do not have to accept the OP's new membership, then I can't see they will.

It seems like a complete mess, caused by a huge case of stubbornness.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am interested in what can be gained from the legal action. If the club is incorporated then it is a separate legal entity from the members and so any legal advice obtained is privileged and you have no entitlement to see the same. If the club is unincorporated, it is not a legal entity and so you can only only take action against the individual members. If you have commenced legal action against the club as you state then the club has to be a legal entity separate from the members and you have no entitlement to see privileged advice obtained by that entity.

With regards the payments lockdown, a simple small claims matter.
		
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Good question. Another issue we have is club is both. A limited company and an unincorporated club. This isn't really feasible and certainly not advisable. We asked 4 weeks ago what entity we should focus on. We don't as yet have an answer. Club ( via captain) already admitted they have known for some time the constitution is not fit for purpose but they never got around to changing it. Not sure at the moment if i am having to sue the members (all 1200 of them) or the directors of the company which is 7 and in my view the main personalities behind this dispute. I most certainly don't want to drag the members in unless forced to by circumstances beyond our control.


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## Siolag (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So you are basically suggesting he’s a troublemaker and best for them if they just find a way to get rid of him and make this all go away!

I have no idea if he is telling the truth or not or if he’ll win his case or not, but it’s his money he’s risking and he (or anyone) shouldn’t be expected to be badly treated (in their eyes) and simply go away and allow themselves to be trodden on.
		
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I’m not saying what I would do if I was on this club committee, what the right thing to do is, or what would happen at most clubs. I’m saying that if the relationship has gotten that bad, that the club could easily not offer renewal to him, and other than adding that to the court case there’s probably not much he can do about that.

There’s a good chance he will win if this gets to court, as a skilled lawyer will probably find something that the club has done wrong due to the fact it’s likely to be volunteers trying to work within a constitution.

Given that this is unlikely to be only known to a few members, the membership might be split between people who agree with him (and may or may not say) or didn’t mind paying fees through the lockdown. If he could find enough of the former to force an EGM then that would be a potential route that would be within the rules of the club, but not as severe as taking the club to court. We also don’t know the financial situation of the club, if it really needed the cash during lockdown, then this court case could wind up very serious indeed if they lose.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting points. I have no legal experience, but I did wonder what would happen if individual members kept demanding to see certain types of paperwork the Committee were in possession of. Surely members simply elect a Committee to take responsibility for that, and if they don't trust them, then ultimately they can hopefully vote for a different Committee.

*I pay a Sky subscription. Very expensive (double by golf membership over the year). But, I doubt I can call Sky and demand to see every legal document they are in possession off to ensure my payments are fair.*

It is in the interest of the Committee to provide clarity to members. That doesn't necessarily mean every individual member will be happy with that, and sadly sometimes their reactions can be fairly extreme.

I'm assuming that when it comes to membership renewal, then I'd be shocked if the OP would join again with all this going on. But, if he does, I'm sure the Club has the right to not accept someone as a member, albeit not sure where that leaves them on the grounds of discrimination? If they do not have to accept the OP's new membership, then I can't see they will.

It seems like a complete mess, caused by a huge case of stubbornness.
		
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Depends on the “Club” all our members are shareholders and is written in the constitution that we can request in writing any paperwork relating to Club business, obviously you have to give reasons etc.

If Sky decided to block your Sky box for 3 months would you keep paying?

Not sure equating Sky to a Golf Club is a good analogy.


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## Slab (Sep 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Again perhaps you are correct *but they're only a figurehead at a GC not a God*.
		
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Correct but whether they were office bearers or not I wouldn't insult my PP's with colourful language (I guess we can just say swearing now) call them liars and expect them to do nothing about it, there's gonna be repercussions  

I've said already that the email thread between them will show 'who started it' and how much blame to apportion to each side, and whether the correct process was followed etc so its a simple matter


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Siolag said:



			I’m not saying what I would do if I was on this club committee, what the right thing to do is, or what would happen at most clubs. I’m saying that if the relationship has gotten that bad, that the club could easily not offer renewal to him, and other than adding that to the court case there’s probably not much he can do about that.

There’s a good chance he will win if this gets to court, as a skilled lawyer will probably find something that the club has done wrong due to the fact it’s likely to be volunteers trying to work within a constitution.

Given that this is unlikely to be only known to a few members, the membership might be split between people who agree with him (and may or may not say) or didn’t mind paying fees through the lockdown. If he could find enough of the former to force an EGM then that would be a potential route that would be within the rules of the club, but not as severe as taking the club to court. We also don’t know the financial situation of the club, if it really needed the cash during lockdown, then this court case could wind up very serious indeed if they lose.
		
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That’s not what you said mate, you said a “further ban” not stop him renewing. Post #214.


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## Siolag (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s not what you said mate, you said a “further ban” not stop him renewing. Post #214.
		
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Yep, my error, that’s what I meant really. Typing when doing something else not the best. 

The post about the constitution “not being fit for purpose” could be the key here. I feel he has a good chance of winning, but it may be something of a Pyrrhic victory.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Depends on the “Club” all our members are shareholders and is written in the constitution that we can request in writing any paperwork relating to Club business, obviously you have to give reasons etc.

If Sky decided to block your Sky box for 3 months would you keep paying?

Not sure equating Sky to a Golf Club is a good analogy.
		
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May not be a perfect analogy, but a big part of the reason he is taking club to court is he wasn't able to see their legal documents. The ban of 3 months and paying subscription is just a further element. Not sure where club stand on that. But, presumable Clubs can ban players under extreme circumstances. If that member had already paid their annual fee, I doubt they have a right to get some sort of refund from the club.

Of course, whether the club were right or wrong in that judgement is difficult to know, as we do not really have a detailed description of what exactly has gone on. I'd have thought that if the Club were completely out of order, then the Committee between them would have tried to calm the situation down by now to avoid going to court. It doesn't seem that this is happening, so it may be the Committee are fairly confident (or maybe stubborn as well) with their case.


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## banjofred (Sep 17, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I must say, although I understand the OP has a valid point of principle here in relation to how the club has been run (based on his version), I don't really see why it's worth spending £000s on.

Having soaked all the information in, there are a few things that don't really make sense:

1. *If a few hundred quid during lockdown are so important to the OP, why then are the £000s litigation will cost worth it?*

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Because sometimes money isn't the most important thing to a person. Money isn't everything.

In this case, it is kind of sounding like both sides were a little bit out of line.....so I don't know if I would fight it if I thought I had at least partial responsibility for the negative results. One thing I've learned over the years, when something unpleasant happens to me.....I've usually been able to have done something different that would have helped.


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## rksquire (Sep 17, 2020)

Wow, a lot to digest there!

re: your colourful email, as long as you didn't break any laws with your language, I imagine a small sanction would have been justified regardless of whether you felt the situation required such a response.  Foul & abusive language personally directed at an individual is not acceptable.

I assume the Club sought legal advice about lockdown fees as that had been a topic of discussion amongst members?  If so, and the club are relying on that advice, they certainly should have been able to share that, or part of that, with members or at least summarise the relevant part and cross reference with the Clubs constitution / rules / agreements to convey their point.  It was stated it was 'bona fide' so why the difficulty in explaining to members.  

Support was given to Clubs (and every business during lockdown), and peoples individual circumstances changed dramatically - being able to pay for something you no longer were able to benefit from because you love the club and want it to survive is different to someone who could no longer afford it.  I imagine there is a principle here regardless of the £000s of legal fees versus 3 months membership.

In reality, failure to share relevant information or fully explain decisions is not something, in my experience, elected representatives want to do.  Which is a shame.  It seems alot of this could have been avoided!


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 17, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Because sometimes money isn't the most important thing to a person. Money isn't everything.

In this case, it is kind of sounding like both sides were a little bit out of line.....so I don't know if I would fight it if I thought I had at least partial responsibility for the negative results. One thing I've learned over the years, when something unpleasant happens to me.....I've usually been able to have done something different that would have helped.
		
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I understand that, but I don't understand what the major point of principle is that's worth £000s.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

I'm just imagining a member of my own club winning a court case (of this nature) against the club, and it costing the club many £000s of pounds.  No matter the rights or the wrongs of the issue, I have a feeling that some or many members might not be that favourably disposed towards that member (or the board).  That is unfortunate but it is not unlikely.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I understand that, but I don't understand what the major point of principle is that's worth £000s.
		
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Two possible answers:


The OP is very wealthy, and 000's for him would be a drop in the ocean
The OP is very passionate on the topic, and has either allow it to snowball to this point, or is simply not bothered by a huge financial loss to make his point.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 17, 2020)

I had yesterday off the foum - what a catch up this has been!


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## NedPizza (Sep 17, 2020)

I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.


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## Canary_Yellow (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Two possible answers:


The OP is very wealthy, and 000's for him would be a drop in the ocean
The OP is very passionate on the topic, and has either allow it to snowball to this point, or is simply not bothered by a huge financial loss to make his point.


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If it's 1, it's also 2, given the starting point is whether fees were still due during lockdown, which to a wealthy person not bothered about spending 000s on litigation would also be trivial.

If it's 2, then my point still stands that I don't understand the big point of principal at play that makes it worth it. 

Clearly, to me at least, it's something fairly minor that has escalated on both sides, and the OP is continuing that escalation come hell or high water regardless of whether the end point (a court case costing both sides a lot of cash) is worth it. It's human pride in action, and I get it, because I'm someone that holds equitable treatment in very high regard, but there has to be a sensible limit on that. Particularly as surely there are other ways to influence the way the golf club is run than this.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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Membership frozen just like my gym was! Courses re-opened, membership started up again. Standard Covid protocols followed throughout the actual course to ensure safe play. The best approach in my opinion.


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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Nothing from mine for that year (to 30/6/20). But 2 months gratis for this year. (1/7/20 to 30/6/21). No problem with that at all.


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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No nothing,  and then prioritised pay and play members.
Have heard similar at other clubs too


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## azazel (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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Our club didn't offer anything that I'm aware of and that's fine by me. We pay our subs "in advance" rather than monthly so there wasn't anything straightforward they could realistically have offered. Plus - and I know some people will see this differently - I don't view my golf membership in the same way as my gym membership. Our club is a private members club, which therefore makes it "my" club, and if my club needs my money to survive then they can have it. There's obviously a limit to what the amount is, and not everyone is in the same financial boat, but if not giving me my money back or offering any kind of discount is what's needed to keep the club going for me, my family and my mates then I'm right behind it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 17, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Clearly, to me at least, it's something fairly minor that has escalated on both sides, and the OP is continuing that escalation come hell or high water regardless of whether the end point (a court case costing both sides a lot of cash) is worth it. It's human pride in action, and I get it, because I'm someone that holds equitable treatment in very high regard, but there has to be a sensible limit on that. Particularly as surely there are other ways to influence the way the golf club is run than this.
		
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Very true, I have seen this many times in my 45 years working at golf clubs and with committees. No one wins and the complainant is generally sent to Coventry.
Countless times I have advised members to make an application to join the committee if they do not like the way the club is being run.
95% reply.
I haven't got the time/ can't be bothered/ what difference would I make.

Re committee members they tend to split into three equal types.
Those who have a genuine desire to improve the club.
Those on a one agenda ticket or ego/social trip
Those who see it as a way of making money.


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## Rlburnside (Sep 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Why are so many people on here blowing smoke up the backside of the "president". They're just a person at a golf club not someone to be in awe of in any shape or form.

Can't wait to come in from work tonight to pick up on the latest twists and drama's of GM SuspensionGate!!!!
		
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Why wait do what someone else does says how busy he is at work then is on the forum all day 😂😂


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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We have different grades of membership, but most are on £180 per year, then they pay green fees per round.

I'm a member that pays the full annual fee of nearly £700 per year.

No discounts in fees after. But, that is fine to me. Club still had to maintain the course over lockdown, and were also losing out on budget members not paying those green fees per round, or fees from visitors.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

azazel said:



			Our club didn't offer anything that I'm aware of and that's fine by me. We pay our subs "in advance" rather than monthly so there wasn't anything straightforward they could realistically have offered. Plus - and I know some people will see this differently - I don't view my golf membership in the same way as my gym membership. Our club is a private members club, which therefore makes it "my" club, and if my club needs my money to survive then they can have it. There's obviously a limit to what the amount is, and not everyone is in the same financial boat, but if not giving me my money back or offering any kind of discount is what's needed to keep the club going for me, my family and my mates then I'm right behind it.
		
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For those of us who renewed end March my club is given a reduction in fees for next two years.  The amount of reduction is a pro rata calculation based upon golf time lost due to closure split over two years.  So if we were shut 3months then 1/4 of £1600 = £200 reduction for each of next two renewals.  

If I don't renew next year then I don't think I get anything from the club in lieu of that reduction; I wouldn't expect to get anything. - and so I wouldn't be asking.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Member gets into heated argument with President of club. Member gets suspended by club (regardless if the Committee are mates, they are probably voted into that Committee by members and ultimately feel the member over stepped the mark, and are not bothered if they never rejoin again). Member takes club to court. Member goes online to give his version of events, initially naming club, potentially harming their reputation.

Now, perhaps members at this club are about to revolt against a terrible Committee and nasty President. However, I have my suspicions that this is a particular member that most clubs would rather was not at their club.

So, I think it is harsh for anyone to assume the President is some sort of Dictator (not all Presidents are like Trump)

But, I agree, I'm loving the drama 

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To be honest.
All the pres had to do is shut him up by showing him the letter.
But he got him suspended and are imo trying to force him out.


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## Billysboots (Sep 17, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I've got a feeling that this thread is gonna become a real forum classic.

Looking forward to read post 16,574 sometime around christmas 2023.
		
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Will Brexit be done and dusted by then, do you think? And what about this pesky virus?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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Nothing yet.
But we pay January so maybe .
But not expecting anything.
But would hope I would not get myself into a situation like this.
One is wrong and that dosnt make the other one right.
Sounds like a right mess imo.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Will Brexit be done and dusted by then, do you think? And what about this pesky virus?
		
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That’s real life!!
This is just golf???


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## Billysboots (Sep 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s real life!!
This is just golf???
		
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Indeed. But there are far more politics in play here than in the Brexit shenanigans! Private members clubs can be a hoot at times, can’t they?


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 17, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Will Brexit be done and dusted by then, do you think? And what about this pesky virus?
		
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Brexit will be done, but most certainly not dusted by any means. By this time, I envision daily calls from The Guardian for the queen to abdicate her throne and to be replaced by Angela Merkel, whilst at the same time an online petition to introduce WOKE as state religion is growing exponentially. 

The virus will still be around, but as it's mainly elderly people that die from it, it doesn't really matter as they voted Brexit. The departure of the old will only pave way to a new and more liberal, inclusive and less hateful society - you bigot. 

But I might be wrong.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 17, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Not sure i can agree i have been a loyal member of 4 years never any trouble. I just don't like secrecy or bullies and feel I should stand up to them. it is a members club not the Presidents. Have currently spent over £2000 on this and likely £2k more to get to court . I see this as a principled stance on a honest question. I don't see myself as a trouble maker but also i am not going to role over and see the club managed in this way.
		
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Must admit I admire your tenacity on a point of principle. £200 is a lot to spend plus potentially another £2k for starters. Personally I would have probably accepted the situation but we are all different and admire you but I could not contemplate such action.

You  mention that the 3 month ban will be on 1st October so with the 3 month ban the incident possibly happened in June. Why has it taken so long for you to post on here please? In 2 weeks‘ time what are your plans re playing in Comps. Social golf, bar etc?

On a lighter note have you considered asking a few from GM Forum to join you or perhaps offer a meet in “ Arrange a Game “ thread. Sure there would be plenty of interest!


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## patricks148 (Sep 17, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If it’s a private members club, I can easily see the OP not being asked to renew his membership at the next renewal time.
As for the whys and wherefores , I reserve judgement suffice to say that as a member of a private members club I wouldn’t be too pleased with another member posting about my club on a public forum and taking legal action over something some may perceive as trivial in the grand scheme of things.
		
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This...


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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Next years subs frozen at the current rate.


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## Robster59 (Sep 17, 2020)

Whenever I see a discussion like this where you only hear one side, I always think of this advert.


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## sunshine (Sep 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm just imagining a member of my own club winning a court case (of this nature) against the club, and it costing the club many £000s of pounds.  No matter the rights or the wrongs of the issue, I have a feeling that some or many members might not be that favourably disposed towards that member (or the board).  That is unfortunate but it is not unlikely.
		
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A member sued my club after she fell over and broke her wrist. It was in january when the course was frozen, obviously she knew the risks, but the club was advised to settle out of court as it had a duty of care to golfers. This was several years ago and she is still a member.

So maybe our freedom fighter can safely reintegrate himself into the club once he has won or lost his crusade. Vive la revolution!


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## LincolnShep (Sep 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re committee members they tend to split into three equal types.
Those who have a genuine desire to improve the club.
Those on a one agenda ticket or ego/social trip
*Those who see it as a way of making money.*

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How would one make money by being on a GC committee?  Asking for a friend.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			A member sued my club after she fell over and broke her wrist. It was in january when the course was frozen, obviously she knew the risks, but the club was advised to settle out of court as it had a duty of care to golfers. This was several years ago and she is still a member.

So maybe our freedom fighter can safely reintegrate himself into the club once he has won or lost his crusade. Vive la revolution!
		
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Out of interest - are you a Proprietary Club or a Members Club.  

Win a case against a members club and it costs the members - indirectly if not directly - but possibly directly if funds are required to fill the gap created.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Indeed. But there are far more politics in play here than in the Brexit shenanigans! Private members clubs can be a hoot at times, can’t they?
		
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I was on the greens comittiee at my last club.
People won’t leave you alone.
Would never do it again.
Never understood why a politician works for £70k when he can earn double that or more outside Parliament.
Must be the kudos and power.


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## banjofred (Sep 17, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Back on track. There will be no winners in the case that has been mentioned
		
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To me.....this isn't the point. It's what is *right*.


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## KenL (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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Nothing and I wouldn't expect anything.
Clubs need support to keep going as not many have much in the bank.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Assuming the advice was privileged and the club wanted to maintain that, they absolutely could not show it to him.
		
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Yes I do see that point.
But if that’s the case why use the letter as justification in an answer to a quite legitimate question from a member.?
It’s a bit silly getting into a slanging match , Both sides need a long look in the mirror imo.
Only the Laywers will win in this one.


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## sunshine (Sep 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Out of interest - are you a Proprietary Club or a Members Club. 

Win a case against a members club and it costs the members - indirectly if not directly - but possibly directly if funds are required to fill the gap created.
		
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Members club. 
Don't think I would have the temerity to sue my club and remain a member.

Unsurprisingly, We now have a very conservative frost policy and lots of safety signs all over the place!


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## Green Bay Hacker (Sep 17, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			See one of the OP's posts below, should explain it.
		
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Thanks.
These are strange times that we are living in and most, if not all golf clubs have had to make difficult decisions based on their own individual circumstances. At the OP's club, at least one of the members was not happy with the committee's decision and pushed for further information. His own financial situation may well have been the driving force in this. Rightly or wrongly, two officials agreed to try and appease the OP with a face to face virtual meeting but seem to have dug themselves into a hole with their answers that the OP felt he had to follow up with an email rant that he now probably regrets. 
No one is going to win in this situation, especially if legal action is being taken (except for the solicitors). 
If the OP can see his way to apologising personally to the president and explain how frustrated he was after the virtual meeting, it may well help in any appeal. You never know, the president may even speak up for him.
Moral for the club is, don't let one or two officials try to deal with a problem that needs the full committee's attention.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Sep 17, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

As an example some gyms offered their members a few extra months free, mine offered nothing. However I like my gym so I accepted their decision.
		
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We offered 3 options (from memory)
1. Let the club keep the 2 months subs from when the club was closed.
2. Member can get the 2 months subs paid into their bar accounts.
3. Member can get some of the 2 months subs paid into their account and let the club keep the balance.

I believe that over 75% of the subs were donated to the club by the members.


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## Robster59 (Sep 17, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Nothing quite so  fun alas... Was told that the club had a legal letter saying fees must be paid during lock down, I asked as a member to see the letter was told it was private and it was not being shown to members.. Ended up in a private email to the President with me  suggesting that he hadn't  told the truth and was now hiding (a little more colorful to be fair).
		
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A question on this. Where you objecting to the principle of paying the money during lockdown or the fact that you didn't like the reason? If the former, well there a big thread one this in the forum somewhere so I won't up that debate but if the latter it seems a strange way for the club to get members to pay.  Our club has been very open throughout it and most members stayed  and paid as the course still needed to be maintained.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 17, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			What an interesting thread.  I think that each club has their own rules about how to deal with disciplinary procedures, they have their own constitutions and management structure as to who makes the decisions but here's my thoughts, for what they're worth.

If it is a members club, and the club say they have taken legal advice about paying the membership, and use that for coercing/forcing/demanding the members pay their membership, then I would say the members have the right to have that advice shared with them.
The OP hasn't really done themselves any favours by getting personal/abusive and calling the integrity of the President into question.  And in writing.  That's an example of where my old boss would write an email, save it, and then come back the next day to see if he still wanted to send it.  Often he didn't.
The President sounds like he is being thin-skinned.  When I was Vice Captain, a member wanted to see us about a dispute he had.  I explained part of the situation to him and he pretty much called me a liar.  I let it by as I knew he was annoyed he wasn't getting his way (he was in the wrong btw) and was trying to get a rise out of me.  I certainly wouldn't have banned him for three months.
By the sound of it the club haven't handled it well in what they have done either.  Call you in and show you the document, or give you the chance to apologies, or just talk it over.
We have had to call people in for infringements, some of which I would say have been worse than the OP but in most instances the individual has know what they have done has been wrong and it was left at that.  In one instance there could almost certainly have been a ban but he showed contrition so it was simply a warning.
At the end of the day, if you have an issue, there are ways to handle it.  Making inflammatory and unfounded allegations then you really have to expect a reaction.  Maybe that's what you were after but just didn't expect the reaction you got.


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Years ago I had a disagreement  with my club/council over an extant rule, but just before my hearing/meeting , a friend whispered in my ear, " don't go in guns blazing, be calm and state your case ". It work out in my favour.
But golf clubs /councils can basically do what they want.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 18, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am interested in what can be gained from the legal action. If the club is incorporated then it is a separate legal entity from the members and so any legal advice obtained is privileged and you have no entitlement to see the same. If the club is unincorporated, it is not a legal entity and so you can only only take action against the individual members. If you have commenced legal action against the club as you state then the club has to be a legal entity separate from the members and you have no entitlement to see privileged advice obtained by that entity.

With regards the payments lockdown, a simple small claims matter.
		
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Interesting post. I am not of the legal persuasion, but was thinking exactly the same thing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 18, 2020)

LincolnShep said:



			How would one make money by being on a GC committee?  Asking for a friend.
		
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By promoting their business to a large group of like minded well to do people.
Financial adviser, builder/trades, car/home/ insurance sales etc. etc etc.
Lots of business done on the golf course I am told.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			By promoting their business to a large group of like minded well to do people.
Financial adviser, builder/trades, car/home/ insurance sales etc. etc etc.
Lots of business done on the golf course I am told.
		
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You'll need to be more specific - as I'll  need to make some notes. For my friend, that is


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## Robster59 (Sep 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			By promoting their business to a large group of like minded well to do people.
Financial adviser, builder/trades, car/home/ insurance sales etc. etc etc.
Lots of business done on the golf course I am told.
		
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I must have missed something during my stint.  Everything was done for the benefit of the club and getting the best value for them.


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## jim8flog (Sep 18, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I have served my suspension all 3 months of it.In full. I am going to court on there refusal to issue the legal advice they claim to have . As a members club we are entitled to see this. I am also going to court over being forced to pay fees whilst suspended which we believe to be illegal as is the suspension as it was meted out by what everyone even the club now agree was a unfair process.
		
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 I play at a members club but the club is split in to two legal entities 

1. A limited Company run by directors which we vote in, which handles all affairs of finance, a large amount of which is not divulged to the members other than in the end of year accounts.
2. A golf club run for the members benefit which does not have any say in the financial affairs.

Before going any further you really need to look at all the club's constitution papers, Articles of Association (if applicable) and the club's Rules and Regulations.  There is no point in suing them if they can simply point to the club's rules and they are following them.


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## jim8flog (Sep 18, 2020)

NedPizza said:



			I don't belong to a golf club, but it would be interesting to hear from others on here who are members, as to what their club offered during lock down if anything.

A.
		
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 Search the threads and you will find one on that specific topic.


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## jim8flog (Sep 18, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			Good question. Another issue we have is club is both. A limited company and an unincorporated club. This isn't really feasible and certainly not advisable. .
		
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 Not what our club's solicitors advised us.

They did however completely rewrite our Articles of Association and suggest various alterations to our Rules and Regs.


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## jim8flog (Sep 18, 2020)

sunshine said:



			A member sued my club after she fell over and broke her wrist. It was in january when the course was frozen, obviously she knew the risks, but the club was advised to settle out of court as it had a duty of care to golfers. This was several years ago and she is still a member.

So maybe our freedom fighter can safely reintegrate himself into the club once he has won or lost his crusade. Vive la revolution!
		
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 There is a difference there,  the club would be insured and it would/should have been referred to the insurers . here have been several members who have claimed against the club for personal injury where I play.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 18, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I play at a members club but the club is split in to two legal entities

1. A limited Company run by directors which we vote in, which handles all affairs of finance, a large amount of which is not divulged to the members other than in the end of year accounts.
2. A golf club run for the members benefit which does not have any say in the financial affairs.

Before going any further *you really need to look at all the club's constitution papers, Articles of Association (if applicable) and the club's Rules and Regulations*.  There is no point in suing them if they can simply point to the club's rules and they are following them.
		
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IIRC, the OP stated that the club, or an official/officer of the club, have admitted this is not fit for purpose.


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## Neil Grice (Sep 18, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			A question on this. Where you objecting to the principle of paying the money during lockdown or the fact that you didn't like the reason? If the former, well there a big thread one this in the forum somewhere so I won't up that debate but if the latter it seems a strange way for the club to get members to pay.  Our club has been very open throughout it and most members stayed  and paid as the course still needed to be maintained.
		
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I didn't mind paying fees during lock down if it was shown the club needed the money ( they really don't) was annoyed as were many by the arrogant way the club demanded money and gave no indication that there was room for debate or discussion. Felt to a lot of us that it was a little intimidating


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## Neil Grice (Sep 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			IIRC, the OP stated that the club, or an official/officer of the club, have admitted this is not fit for purpose.
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			IIRC, the OP stated that the club, or an official/officer of the club, have admitted this is not fit for purpose.
		
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we have looked into it in great detail. There is nothing in the constitution that protects the club at all. I am sure they wish there was


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## KenL (Sep 18, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I didn't mind paying fees during lock down if it was shown the club needed the money ( they really don't) was annoyed as were many by the arrogant way the club demanded money and gave no indication that there was room for debate or discussion. Felt to a lot of us that it was a little intimidating
		
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Am I missing something?  You join a club for a year's membership.  Gov closed the course for 2 months and you want money off.
If it snowed and was closed for a month, would you want money back then?


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## banjofred (Sep 18, 2020)

KenL said:



			Am I missing something?  You join a club for a year's membership.  Gov closed the course for 2 months and you want money off.
If it snowed and was closed for a month, would you want money back then?
		
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Traminator said:



			To be fair, plenty of people expressed that view when the thread on this debate was top of the hit parade...
I think most felt like you though regarding a members club, ie all members should pull together.
Maybe different at a proprietary venue where members haven't felt valued though.
		
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The only problem I really had was that I paid the whole fee at the beginning of March (April is the new term). A lot of people were waiting until the end of March to pay, and of course they didn't have to re-up since there was no reason to if you weren't playing. A whole lot of these people did not pay during the closed down time. I don't want to have to pay, so that other people don't have to. If we are ALL in it together....fair enough. We were supposedly given the chance to either get that money back, or we could count it off on next years fees (which is fine with me).


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## Robster59 (Sep 18, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I didn't mind paying fees during lock down if it was shown the club needed the money ( they really don't) was annoyed as were many by the arrogant way the club demanded money and gave no indication that there was room for debate or discussion. Felt to a lot of us that it was a little intimidating
		
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If your club doesn't need the money then they're in a fortunate position as a lot of clubs were very concerned over finances and needed that money over the lockdown.  No income from visitors, people using the clubhouse,etc. has a big impact on the club and the bills, and non-furloughed staff still have to be paid in that time.  The course has to be maintained and kept in good condition for when the lockdown finished.  I know a lot of work was done behind the scenes by the Board of Management, Captain and Vice Captain, Club Manager, Council, etc. (all unpaid except for the club manager).  All that work was done quietly and efficiently behind the scenes.  Nobody made a big fuss about doing it, they just did it for the club.  Not for any personal benefit of kudos.

At our club, most people respected that and supported the club by keeping their contributions coming in.  The club kept us aware of the financial position and even kept the members updated with current and forecast accounts during that period.  They left it up to the decisions of the individual members as to what they wanted to do.  When we came out, they offered some options on a show of appreciation in terms of financial recompense.  Again the members could take it or, if they didn't, the money would go towards the course.  I think over half the members went for that option.

Maybe the club hasn't acted in the best way, but in all honestly, do you think you have?  Or are you now just pursuing a crusade?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 18, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			If your club doesn't need the money then they're in a fortunate position as a lot of clubs were very concerned over finances and needed that money over the lockdown.  No income from visitors, people using the clubhouse,etc. has a big impact on the club and the bills and staff still have to be paid in that time.  The course has to be maintained and kept in good condition for when the lockdown finished.  I know a lot of work was done behind the scenes by the Board of Management, Captain and Vice Captain, Club Manager, Council, etc. (all unpaid except for the club manager).  All that work was done quietly and efficiently behind the scenes.  Nobody made a big fuss about doing it, they just did it for the club.  Not for any personal benefit of kudos. 
At our club, most people respected that and supported the club by keeping their contributions coming in.  The club kept us aware of the financial position and even kept the members updated with current and forecast accounts during that period.  They left it up to the decisions of the individual members as to what they wanted to do.  When we came out, they offered some options on a show of appreciation in terms of financial recompense.  Again the members could take it or if they didn't the money would go towards the course.  I think over half the members went for that option. 
Maybe the club hasn't acted in the best way, but in all honestly, do you think you have?  Or are you now just pursuing a crusade?
		
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That's a good response. Although golf clubs would have got some / all money back on wages through furlough, there'd still be costs associated with keeping it maintained and other bills they need to take care off. No longer getting any income from visitors, pro shop, food and drink, etc and then some members may also be asking / demanding refunds.

So, it begs the question that, if a members club really didn't need the money, that would imply they have plenty of reserves. If they had plenty of reserves, there'd come a point where, before Covid came along, members might be asking why they are not spending a lot of these reserves on the course. I appreciate you want some reserve, but before February / March, how many members would have demanded their clubs held enough reserves to cope with a worldwide pandemic where golf would be completely banned for 2/3 months? It's a genuine question, I'm not a member of a members club, so the Owner of our club is responsible for the finances.


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## Neilds (Sep 18, 2020)

Neil Grice said:



			I am absolutely adamant that the clubs side should be heard before decisions are made. I named the club in the hope of getting some feedback as currently my dispute is being hushed up and i suspect many members don't know the club is being sued. The club are currently refusing to even confirm my ban will be lifted as at 1st Oct when it is up.
		
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You say here your ban is up on 1 Oct, but in a later post you say that you have served your ban in full. Both cannot be true so how can we be sure your side Of the story is totally factual and correct?


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## Sats (Sep 18, 2020)

The clubs sounds like it's filled and run by investment bankers. It's a golf club not a company you work for - stick the disciplinary and stick the club where the sun doesn't shine. I'd go elsewhere. Mind you I don't get involved in club politics - and during the lockdown I paid my DD as I was fortunate to still be working as my thoughts were i wanted a club to come back to.


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## OnTour (Sep 19, 2020)

You sign up you pay up simples.  I never signed my renewal after being closed for 5 months just paid monthly if it's shut this year I'll just stop the transaction and move on. 5 months shut then covid lockdown pretty much 6 months membership in the end. 

AS for getting banned pretty sure they don't just ban people for nothing!


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## Bermuda (Sep 19, 2020)

Given what's happened surely you would prefer to just join elsewhere and start over?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 19, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I must have missed something during my stint.  Everything was done for the benefit of the club and getting the best value for them.
		
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Unfortunately not all think the same as you.
You are in the good 33%.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 19, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			You'll need to be more specific - as I'll  need to make some notes. For my friend, that is
		
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A friend was the owner of a couple of big local Rover/Jaguar car dealerships.
He joined the club but played little golf.
His company generously sponsored a big annual tournament. [Impressive smart display of cars at the club for a weekend.]
Sold lots of cars to club members as he was regarded as a good trustworthy member.


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## MrGrumtastic (Sep 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A friend was the owner of a couple of big local Rover/Jaguar car dealerships.
He joined the club but played little golf.
His company generously sponsored a big annual tournament. [Impressive smart display of cars at the club for a weekend.]
Sold lots of cars to club members as he was regarded as a good trustworthy member.
		
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Is that not the entire point of sponsoring a tournament?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 19, 2020)

MrGrumtastic said:



			Is that not the entire point of sponsoring a tournament?
		
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That's what I was thinking. It certainly doesn't provide evidence that people would join a Committee to benefit financially. In fact, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Committee before. Unless this chap was paying someone on the Committee backhanders to host this event?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 19, 2020)

MrGrumtastic said:



			Is that not the entire point of sponsoring a tournament?
		
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Read the last line re trustworthy member, most committee members are regarded by the membership as trustworthy members. [after all they were elected by them].
It has been my experience that a certain number of committee members that I have worked with I would not have trusted to mind my dog.


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## Chico84 (Sep 19, 2020)

Neilds said:



			You say here your ban is up on 1 Oct, but in a later post you say that you have served your ban in full. Both cannot be true so how can we be sure your side Of the story is totally factual and correct?
		
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I interpreted that to mean effectively served as we’re almost in October anyway. It feels a little unfair to question what has been an otherwise consistently replayed version of events based on a minor discrepancy.


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## Neilds (Sep 19, 2020)

Chico84 said:



			I interpreted that to mean effectively served as we’re almost in October anyway. It feels a little unfair to question what has been an otherwise consistently replayed version of events based on a minor discrepancy.
		
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Might seem unfair to you but the OP hasn’t been on to clarify so I still think we might not be getting to full story


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## Chico84 (Sep 19, 2020)

Neilds said:



			Might seem unfair to you but the OP hasn’t been on to clarify so I still think we might not be getting to full story
		
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Fair enough. Let’s see what he says.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 19, 2020)

Bermuda said:



			Given what's happened surely you would prefer to just join elsewhere and start over?
		
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My thoughts as well. Even if the ban is served and the OP is allowed back in, there will always an undercurrent, perhaps some whisperings amongst groups in the clubhouse and certainly mistrust on both sides about how the club is run and members attitudes. A clean break (and that isn't allowing for gossip to travel to other locally clubs if it hasn't already done so) would seem the only way forward to enjoy being a member somewhere again


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 20, 2020)

Bermuda said:



			Given what's happened surely you would prefer to just join elsewhere and start over?
		
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Yes I see this valid point.
But if everything the op said is accurate, Then  it’s the Comittiee getting rid of members asking awkward questions.
That’s not right imo.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 21, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I see this valid point.
But if everything the op said is accurate, Then  it’s the Comittiee getting rid of members asking awkward questions.
That’s not right imo.
		
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I totally agree although we're never going to get both sides of this story and I can't seeing the club or committee wanting to much of it to become public knowledge. That leaves the OP in the unfortunate situation of having a large stain against his character at the club and sadly, at some clubs there will always be those whispers and rumours going around about what really happened. If it were I, to be able to enjoy my golf and play without any added stress and enjoy the 19th hole as well then I'd be getting out and joining somewhere else asap before the rumour mill goes into over drive and it gets to other clubs. It isn't necessarily right and I feel for the OP and how this appears to have played out but sometimes prudence is the better option


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## Chico84 (Sep 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I totally agree although we're never going to get both sides of this story and I can't seeing the club or committee wanting to much of it to become public knowledge. That leaves the OP in the unfortunate situation of having a large stain against his character at the club and sadly, at some clubs there will always be those whispers and rumours going around about what really happened. If it were I, to be able to enjoy my golf and play without any added stress and enjoy the 19th hole as well then I'd be getting out and joining somewhere else asap before the rumour mill goes into over drive and it gets to other clubs. It isn't necessarily right and I feel for the OP and how this appears to have played out but sometimes prudence is the better option
		
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I’ve never been a member of a golf club so I don’t know how it all works but if there’s around 700 members then surely not everyone can be whispering. I’d imagine a large number if members just go to have a round and then a beer or two after. It’s not high school (or am I being too generous?!) and even if it was, who cares, as long as there are still mates who will play a round with you and you can still enjoy it that’s all that matters.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 21, 2020)

Chico84 said:



			I’ve never been a member of a golf club so I don’t know how it all works but if there’s around 700 members then surely not everyone can be whispering. I’d imagine a large number if members just go to have a round and then a beer or two after. It’s not high school (or am I being too generous?!) and even if it was, who cares, as long as there are still mates who will play a round with you and you can still enjoy it that’s all that matters.
		
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You are quite right. Most don't give a flying fig about what is going on behind the scenes or any of the latest gossip and turn up, play, maybe have a pint after and go home. Sadly there are also others, sometimes in their own little cliques that feel they need to know (and to some degree in their minds have the right to know) exactly what is going on and exactly how the club is being run and that all officers of the club are doing their jobs properly. They want to know any gossip about fellow members and want to be the source of all knowledge. I think a lot of clubs have these, and to a large degree their gossiping is nothing more than an irritation and boring but if they get a whiff of a scandal they'll be right into it. That won't do the OP's position any favours


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