# 6-9 irons



## bobmac (Dec 20, 2015)

When I started playing golf, a set of irons were 3-SW
Nowadays, with people buying more hybrids and specialist wedges, is it likely manufacturers will end up selling just 4 irons in a set (6-9)?

I know people will buy whatever clubs makes golf easier and they haven't got time to practice so why bother.......just fill your bag full of hybrids and wedges and bingo, I'm your uncle.


----------



## brendy (Dec 20, 2015)

Give me a hug Bob I'm still a 3-pw guy.


----------



## fundy (Dec 20, 2015)

last set I bought was 3-PW plus 52,56,60

people will build whatever set they think suits them best imo


----------



## Fish (Dec 20, 2015)

I've just got myself a new set, 4-PW plus 52, 56 & 60, I have no love for hybrids.


----------



## Bazzatron (Dec 20, 2015)

They'll still charge the same price too.


----------



## Fyldewhite (Dec 20, 2015)

I must be one of the few golfers who doesn't own a hybrid. 3-PW for me.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

Surely it's whatever suits people the best 

Great to have a choice 

I have a 3 hybrid instead of a 3 iron - I hit it further and better than any 3iron I have tried


----------



## brendy (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it's whatever suits people the best 

Great to have a choice 

I have a 3 hybrid instead of a 3 iron - I hit it further and better than any 3iron I have tried
		
Click to expand...

Something stuck to the back of yer skirt there Phil. If it's not a 3i it's not golf :ears:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

brendy said:



			Something stuck to the back of yer skirt there Phil. If it's not a 3i it's not golf :ears:
		
Click to expand...

It's golf if it helps me get onto two par 5's today in two   :ears:


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

I'm getting rid of the 4 iron. A hybrid is more versatile for me and much easier to hit. No brainer.


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

Just brought new irons in 5-W.

First thing I did once ordered was to start looking for the matching 4 iron.

I find long irons give me a more controlled flight. Hybrids are always a litte hooky, even the 19Â° I carry.


----------



## MashieNiblick (Dec 20, 2015)

5-PW seems to be quite a common set option now and looks like becoming the norm. Sensible given that hybrids are popular. The independent wedge market doesn't seem to really focus on the less lofted end and as the PW is effectively 10 iron rather than a specialist club I'd be surprised if they started to fall out of what is generally offered as part of a matched set.


----------



## Bigfoot (Dec 20, 2015)

I find my 20 deg hybrid great out of rough but would never get rid of my longer irons as I play them much better off the deck than the hybrid.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf, a set of irons were 3-SW
Nowadays, with people buying more hybrids and specialist wedges, is it likely manufacturers will end up selling just 4 irons in a set (6-9)?

I know people will buy whatever clubs makes golf easier and they haven't got time to practice so why bother.......just fill your bag full of hybrids and wedges and bingo, I'm your uncle.
		
Click to expand...


I currently only have pw, 9i, 8i then wedges and hybrids and a driver. Nothing to do with practice, it's just gives my confidence at the moment.


----------



## selwood90 (Dec 20, 2015)

4-sw for me, not consistent enough with a 3 iron. Got my eye on a 21 degree hybrid to go in place of a 3 iron. But never actually hit a hybrid so a bit of practise will no doubt be required! My last set I had no hybrids and carried a 3 iron got on with it like a house on fire. But my new set I struggle with my 4 iron regularly. Just whatever suits the individual in my experience.


----------



## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2015)

gone back to 3-pw this year , last iron set didn't even have a a 3 iron available if you wanted one


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Modern life is all about dumbing down rather than learning.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

All for making it as easier and accessible as possible. 4-PW guy personally


----------



## Foxholer (Dec 20, 2015)

brendy said:



			Something stuck to the back of yer skirt there Phil. If it's not a 3i it's not golf :ears:
		
Click to expand...

Ask Y E Yang - who happened to have a load of head-covers in his bag when he beat Tiger in the PGA!

And there have been occasions when KJ Choi's longest iron has been a 7!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Modern life is all about dumbing down rather than learning.
		
Click to expand...

What do you mean in regards dumbing down ?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Ask Y E Yang - who happened to have a load of head-covers in his bag when he beat Tiger in the PGA!

And there have been occasions when KJ Choi's longest iron has been a 7!
		
Click to expand...

Good point well made. He didn't seem to care


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do you mean in regards dumbing down ?
		
Click to expand...

Rather than learning how to do a task you make the task easier (dumb it down).


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Rather than learning how to do a task you make the task easier (dumb it down).
		
Click to expand...

Or you use something that gives you better results 

Why would I use a three iron when I can hit a hybrid better ?! 

That's not "dumbing" down - that's sensible choice


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or you use something that gives you better results 

Why would I use a three iron when I can hit a hybrid better ?! 

That's not "dumbing" down - that's sensible choice
		
Click to expand...

Its dumbing down you don't have the skill to do one thing so you find a way that takes less skill, I get it.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Its dumbing down you don't have the skill to do one thing so you find a way that takes less skill, I get it.
		
Click to expand...

Less skill ?! - it's quite clear you don't get it.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Less skill ?! - it's quite clear you don't get it.
		
Click to expand...

Spin it how you want it's dumbing down.

A hybrid takes less skill to hit than a long iron its why they were created.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Spin it how you want it's dumbing down.

A hybrid takes less skill to hit than a long iron its why they were created.
		
Click to expand...

I see your point and up to a level agree with it. It takes a degree of skill to hit a five iron well, regularly out of different lies and off the tee. Some can, others struggle. As a past time we do to "enjoy" surely using the easiest tools of the trade to do that and make it as fun as possible makes sense. At the end of the day no-one asks what club you used on the 14th to make birdie. The card simply says you did it


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or you use something that gives you better results 

*Why would I use a three iron when I can hit a hybrid better ?! *

That's not "dumbing" down - that's sensible choice
		
Click to expand...

This is something I've never understood. 

How are hybrids easier to hit? 

We generally agree that as a rule the longer the shaft,  the harder the club to consistently hit. 

The shafts in hybrids are longer than the equivalent iron so, to me,  it seems a little backwards.  You can't hit a 3 iron very will that is 38.3/4" , but a (Ping G30 as an example) is easier to hit at 39.3/4" 

If you consistently hit a long iron heavy (fat), why would this be different/better with ba hybrid? 

If you slice/hook a long iron,  why will a hybrid be any different?

I, personally,  don't buy into the easier to hit argument, but  that's just my opinion.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

I don't think they are "easier" to hit 

I just hit my one better than a 3 iron 

But I know plenty that can't hit a hybrid for toffee 

Think it's false that it takes less skill to hit a hybrid


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

One Planer said:



			This is something I've never understood. 

How are hybrids easier to hit? 

We generally agree that as a rule the longer the shaft,  the harder the club to consistently hit. 

The shafts in hybrids are longer than the equivalent iron so, to me,  it seems a little backwards.  You can't hit a 3 iron very will that is 38.3/4" , but a (Ping G30 as an example) is easier to hit at 39.3/4" 

If you consistently hit a long iron heavy (fat), why would this be different/better with ba hybrid? 

If you slice/hook a long iron,  why will a hybrid be any different?

I, personally,  don't buy into the easier to hit argument, but  that's just my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying but for me, the length isn't an issue, and a hybrid can have more versatility especially out of iffy lies


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't think they are "easier" to hit 

I just hit my one better than a 3 iron 

But I know plenty that can't hit a hybrid for toffee 

Think it's false that it takes less skill to hit a hybrid
		
Click to expand...

Spin it how you want, the exist for people who struggle to hit long irons.

That's what thread about it dumbing the game down.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

Hybrids ARE easier to hit. Bigger heads, lower CG, tend to be forgiving across the face. It's not hard to work out.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Spin it how you want, the exist for people who struggle to hit long irons.

That's what thread about it dumbing the game down.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of pros on tour struggling then...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Spin it how you want, the exist for people who struggle to hit long irons.

That's what thread about it dumbing the game down.
		
Click to expand...

I can hit a three iron , can hit a 2 iron 

I can hit other clubs better. 

No spin at all and certainly not being dumbed down


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I see what you are saying but for me, the length isn't an issue, and a hybrid can have more versatility especially out of iffy lies
		
Click to expand...

But how does that make then easier to hit?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can hit a three iron , can hit a 2 iron 

I can hit other clubs better. 

No spin at all and certainly not being dumbed down
		
Click to expand...

Ok whatever spin it how you want, facts are facts.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ok whatever spin it how you want, facts are facts.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but you haven't supplied any facts ?


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Hybrids ARE easier to hit. Bigger heads, lower CG, tend to be forgiving across the face. It's not hard to work out.
		
Click to expand...

Are they?

I find the equivalent long iron easier to hit. 

I personally think hybrids are hook machines where the flight of a long iron is simply more predictable. 

Horses for courses I suppose but to say they are easier to hit is a misnomer in my view.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			A lot of pros on tour struggling then...
		
Click to expand...

Not struggling but making the game easier.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

One Planer said:



			But how does that make then easier to hit?
		
Click to expand...

From my own perspecitve I can hit my irons reasonably well as well as a hybrid and so there's not an issue. I'd argue, and stand to be corrected that the design of a hybrid, irrespective of the marginal length increase, makes it easier for some to get the ball airborne


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			A lot of pros on tour struggling then...
		
Click to expand...

Are all tour pros using blades?


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			From my own perspecitve I can hit my irons reasonably well as well as a hybrid and so there's not an issue. I'd argue, and stand to be corrected that the design of a hybrid, irrespective of the marginal length increase, makes it easier for some to get the ball airborne
		
Click to expand...

Let me clarify my point. 

If you hit long irons fat, will it be different with ba hybrid? 

If you thin your long irons,  will it be different with a hybrid? 

If you hook/slice your long irons will it be different with a hybrid? 

I would wager not,  hence my misunderstanding of the "easier to hit" comment?


----------



## Qwerty (Dec 20, 2015)

Hybrids are easier to hit, no doubt.  But for a reasonable ball striker are they easier to control. Personally I'd say no, I find I get far more control with a long iron. 
Probably not an issue off the Tee, but a big asset on approach shots.



Would it be beneficial long term for a better player/good ball striker to learn to how to middle and control their long irons rather than 'copping out' with Hybrids?


----------



## bobmac (Dec 20, 2015)

I think the game has been dumbed down.

Can't hit a 460 CC driver? Then get a 12 deg Mini driver with a shorter shaft 
Cant hit a long iron? Get a rescue or 3
Cant vary your shots with a PW? Get 4 more
Cant be bothered practicing ? No problem....full handicap.
GPS, lasers, wider fairways, bigger greens, bigger balls, 36 handicaps for men..........
Etc


----------



## Robobum (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Spin it how you want, the exist for people who struggle to hit long irons.

That's what thread about it dumbing the game down.
		
Click to expand...

Have you got a tiny cock?

Aw bless. Size doesn't matter


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Are all tour pros using blades?
		
Click to expand...

What difference does that make? Hybrids being hook machines surely technique and not the stick?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but you haven't supplied any facts ?
		
Click to expand...

Ok why we're they created? Why is the thread about iron sets being 6 -9 because they are easier to hit. The facts are there, in every magazine you read, think what you like but if you believe anything other than you are dumbing the game down then you are lying to yourself.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I think the game has been dumbed down.

Can't hit a 460 CC driver? Then get a 12 deg Mini driver with a shorter shaft 
Cant hit a long iron? Get a rescue or 3
Cant vary your shots with a PW? Get 4 more
Cant be bothered practicing ? No problem....full handicap.
GPS, lasers, wider fairways, bigger greens, bigger balls, 36 handicaps for men..........
Etc
		
Click to expand...

Or made more fun and accessible? 

A lot of recreational golfers simply don't have the time to practice rather than your assumption that "they can't be bothered". Oh yes, and I use a mini driver because it's easier, goes nearly as far and is more successful for me, this making it more FUN. On my scorecard it doesn't say "uses blades and a 430cc tour edition driver"....


----------



## Robobum (Dec 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I think the game has been dumbed down.

Can't hit a 460 CC driver? Then get a 12 deg Mini driver with a shorter shaft 
Cant hit a long iron? Get a rescue or 3
Cant vary your shots with a PW? Get 4 more
Cant be bothered practicing ? No problem....full handicap.
GPS, lasers, wider fairways, bigger greens, bigger balls, 36 handicaps for men..........
Etc
		
Click to expand...

For a pro to post this is pretty sad Bob.

Golf is your livelihood but, in the grand scheme, you aren't very good at it. There are plenty who play for fun who have a knock once a week that'll kick your arse for you with or without shots.

Would you like it made easier for you! Perhaps YOU need to practice more?


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			What difference does that make? Hybrids being hook machines surely technique and not the stick?
		
Click to expand...

If tour pros weren't struggling,  surely they would all be using blades instead of cavity/GI irons? 

 As for the hooks,  the 19Â° I carry is Jekyl and Hyde. Getting more Jekyl than Hyde of late but it (Hook/Hooking) a recurring comment people make when referencing hybrids and v why they can't get on with them. 

I have no issue with people using  them. No issue at all as I use one myself.  It's the easier to hit comments I don't understand.


----------



## Qwerty (Dec 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I think the game has been dumbed down.

Can't hit a 460 CC driver? Then get a 12 deg Mini driver with a shorter shaft 
Cant hit a long iron? Get a rescue or 3
Cant vary your shots with a PW? Get 4 more
Cant be bothered practicing ? No problem....full handicap.
GPS, lasers, wider fairways, bigger greens, bigger balls, 36 handicaps for men..........
Etc
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree Bob :thup: 

"Rubbish a reading greens?? Well here's a Chart that'll do it for you and Take the fun out of it"


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ok why we're they created? Why is the thread about iron sets being 6 -9 because they are easier to hit. The facts are there, in every magazine you read, think what you like but if you believe anything other than you are dumbing the game down then you are lying to yourself.
		
Click to expand...

Because they add some thing else to people's game 

They give a different ball flight , allow people to shape a shot different , allow someone to use it on lies where it's tough for irons to be used 

But it's not a fact to say they are easier to hit when I know people that can't hit one for toffee but can hit a 3 iron 

Clubs are always changing as the game does


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I think the game has been dumbed down.

Can't hit a 460 CC driver? Then get a 12 deg Mini driver with a shorter shaft 
Cant hit a long iron? Get a rescue or 3
Cant vary your shots with a PW? Get 4 more
Cant be bothered practicing ? No problem....full handicap.
GPS, lasers, wider fairways, bigger greens, bigger balls, 36 handicaps for men..........
Etc
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree give some of today's cat 1 golfers persimmon woods and a set of blades and the wouldn't break 90.


----------



## Fish (Dec 20, 2015)

Robobum said:



			For a pro to post this is pretty sad Bob.

Golf is your livelihood but, in the grand scheme, you aren't very good at it. There are plenty who play for fun who have a knock once a week that'll kick your arse for you with or without shots.

Would you like it made easier for you! Perhaps YOU need to practice more?
		
Click to expand...

Wow, what a totally disrespectful post &#128563;


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

One Planer said:



			If tour pros weren't struggling,  surely they would all be using blades instead of cavity/GI irons?
		
Click to expand...

I think you're a bit off on this one fella. I don't think they struggle, but use hybrids because they are easier to hit and more forgiving. For them, why take the chance?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

Bob's stance seems a little strange. Isn't golf suppose to be inclusive and so using whatever it takes to make it fun and playable has to be a good thing doesn't it?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Are all tour pros using blades?
		
Click to expand...

Not all but the best do.


----------



## Fish (Dec 20, 2015)

There nicknamed cheating sticks for a reason.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

Fish said:



			There nicknamed cheating sticks for a reason.
		
Click to expand...

Chortle.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bob's stance seems a little strange. Isn't golf suppose to be inclusive and so using whatever it takes to make it fun and playable has to be a good thing doesn't it?
		
Click to expand...

Why it's his opinion doesn't mean he agrees it's a bad thing.

I find it ridiculous that anyone who has played golf for say the last 2o years cannot see that it's a lot easier than it used to be.


----------



## Robobum (Dec 20, 2015)

Fish said:



			There nicknamed cheating sticks for a reason.
		
Click to expand...

Get one for your pitching #dropkick


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because they add some thing else to people's game 

They give a different ball flight , allow people to shape a shot different , allow someone to use it on lies where it's tough for irons to be used 

But it's not a fact to say they are easier to hit when I know people that can't hit one for toffee but can hit a 3 iron 

Clubs are always changing as the game does
		
Click to expand...

Sorry it is a fact.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Sorry it is a fact.
		
Click to expand...

No it's an opinion.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 20, 2015)

Robobum said:



			For a pro to post this is pretty sad Bob.

Golf is your livelihood but, in the grand scheme, you aren't very good at it. There are plenty who play for fun who have a knock once a week that'll kick your arse for you with or without shots.

Would you like it made easier for you! Perhaps YOU need to practice more?
		
Click to expand...

I only play a few rounds a year for fun so nothing to prove, no handicap to chase and I've done my fair share of practice over the years.
Someone earlier posted that they couldn't hit a 5 iron off a tee so were looking at buying a hybrid, that's what prompted this thread


----------



## Robobum (Dec 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I only play a few rounds a year for fun so nothing to prove, no handicap to chase and I've done my fair share of practice over the years.
Someone earlier posted that they couldn't hit a 5 iron off a tee so were looking at buying a hybrid, that's what prompted this thread
		
Click to expand...

Do you tell your pupils that have hybrids instead of long irons that they are dumbing the game down?


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			I think you're a bit off on this one fella. I don't think they struggle, but use hybrids because they are easier to hit and more forgiving. For them, why take the chance?
		
Click to expand...

If we're being honest. Tour professionals can hit any club they wanted, and hit it extremely well.

Yang had a bag full of hybrids, others carry very few. Some will alter their bags to fit a particular course.

What's your take on the new(...er) versions of hybrids that are more akin in appearance to the iron they replace?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No it's an opinion.
		
Click to expand...

No it's a fact they have been designed to be easier to hit than irons.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 20, 2015)

One Planer said:



			What's your take on the new(...er) versions of hybrids that are more akin in appearance to the iron they replace?
		
Click to expand...

Like the Adams DHY style? Like them!


----------



## bobmac (Dec 20, 2015)

Robobum said:



			Do you tell your pupils that have hybrids instead of long irons that they are dumbing the game down?
		
Click to expand...

No, hybrids are easier to hit so why not buy them.


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Like the Adams DHY style? Like them!
		
Click to expand...

More the Titleist 712u, Mizuno H5 shape. 

Never hit the DHY. Look strange


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Absolutely agree give some of today's cat 1 golfers persimmon woods and a set of blades and the wouldn't break 90.
		
Click to expand...

What a stupid post!! While we're at it let's bring back Model T Fords and see how Hamilton drives, or leather footballs with laces in, Ronaldo wouldn't be a pro
It's 2015 ffs, why not just use equipment available and enjoy. Ahh the good old days when scurvy and smallpox was rife


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			What a stupid post!! While we're at it let's bring back Model T Fords and see how Hamilton drives, or leather footballs with laces in, Ronaldo wouldn't be a pro
It's 2015 ffs, why not just use equipment available and enjoy. Ahh the good old days when scurvy and smallpox was rife
		
Click to expand...

You forgot the kids down the mines and up the chimneys


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Not all but the best do.
		
Click to expand...

Really? Speith is an ap2 guy and countless others. Can tell winter is here the bitchyness is back not aimed at you Freddie BTW


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

Tiger man said:



			Really? Speith is an ap2 guy and countless others.
		
Click to expand...

Zach Johnson also using the Ap2


----------



## One Planer (Dec 20, 2015)

Rory, Woods, Scott......


----------



## ruff-driver (Dec 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You forgot the kids down the mines and up the chimneys
		
Click to expand...

You pillock homer



























all the mines are shut down


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Zach Johnson also using the Ap2
		
Click to expand...

Plenty of top pros using the modern tech to help them and why not? It is their livelihood and one shot sacrificed that could have been prevented with a bit of help from a club would be one too many for them.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			What a stupid post!! While we're at it let's bring back Model T Fords and see how Hamilton drives, or leather footballs with laces in, Ronaldo wouldn't be a pro
It's 2015 ffs, why not just use equipment available and enjoy. Ahh the good old days when scurvy and smallpox was rife
		
Click to expand...

The point was golf is now easier some people find that hard to admit.


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 20, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Rory, Woods, Scott......
		
Click to expand...

Who's this Woods you talk of?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			The point was golf is now easier some people find that hard to admit.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, just about every sport is, it's called technology.


----------



## JCW (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Absolutely agree give some of today's cat 1 golfers persimmon woods and a set of blades and the wouldn't break 90.
		
Click to expand...

No really , I playrd with Titliest blades for years and won many comps and maintained a cat 1 handicap , still do but now change to TM as fancied a change and its so easy with new clubs .......................I used to go round Dudsbury with a callaway 2 iron off the tee , course is 6900 plus yards  .................EYG


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			The point was golf is now easier some people find that hard to admit.
		
Click to expand...

Yes equipment is much better as all things evolve? Don't know where you are going with this are you saying we should all go back to blades and Persimmons so it is the same as how it was? The pros are also playing courses that are 7500 yards which would be unheard of in the good'ol days which kind of offsets it?


----------



## MashieNiblick (Dec 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I think the game has been dumbed down.

Can't hit a 460 CC driver? Then get a 12 deg Mini driver with a shorter shaft
		
Click to expand...

Oh Bob, the irony. 

460cc drivers were for those who couldn't hit 415cc ones
415cc drivers were for those who couldn't hit 330cc drivers
330cc drivers were for those who couldn't hit 270cc drivers
Metal drivers were for those who couldn't hit a wooden one.

How many people who decry hybrids for making the game easy are using wooden drivers? I'd guess none. Seems a bit hypocritical to have a go at hybrids but using a huge titanium melon on the end of a lightweight shaft is OK.

Having learned with wooden woods I'd say modern drivers make the game much easier than hybrids.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

I am not going anywhere just saying I think the equipment shouldn't remove the skill, I believe we are at a point where modern equipment has a numbness to it and that we should pull back a bit, before it gets boring.


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I am not going anywhere just saying I think the equipment shouldn't remove the skill, I believe we are at a point where modern equipment has a numbness to it and that we should pull back a bit, before it gets boring.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I personally much prefer playing blades, currently have the s3 pros in my bag, as I love the feedback but that's not to say I would want everyone to play them as the game is about enjoyment and plenty of people don't have time or the game to enjoy a bladed club. But if GI clubs where that easy to play everyone would be shooting in the 60/70's which is clearly not the case so plenty of skill is still required to shoot low scores with modern tech.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Not struggling but making the game easier.
		
Click to expand...

Launch higher, land softer. Nothing to do with easier or not. In the main reason they exist is they create a better result. Landing on the green from a long distance.

Arguing that young people dumb things down is like saying old people like doing things in a worse way.... 

The human program is to better ones self... Do things better.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Launch higher, land softer. Nothing to do with easier or not. In the main reason they exist is they create a better result. Landing on the green from a long distance.

Arguing that young people dumb things down is like saying old people like doing things in a worse way.... 

The human program is to better ones self... Do things better.
		
Click to expand...

Nice sentiment it would be lovely if it were true.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Nice sentiment it would be lovely if it were true.
		
Click to expand...

Well it will be for some but it's pretty hard to lump the whole human race of an age bracket into one compartment. 

I would say on the whole in the UK, the people I come across are people who want to move things forward. Focusing things a bit more, the young people I meet at our club are always quite impressive.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Well it will be for some but it's pretty hard to lump the whole human race of an age bracket into one compartment. 

I would say on the whole in the UK, the people I come across are people who want to move things forward. Focusing things a bit more, the young people I meet at our club are always quite impressive.
		
Click to expand...

Its human nature to design things/tools to make things easier, that in itself isn't a bad thing, but you see it in almost every walk of life skills and talents are being lost.


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Its human nature to design things/tools to make things easier, that in itself isn't a bad thing, but you see it in almost every walk of life skills and talents are being lost.
		
Click to expand...

Hybrids are ruining mankind!


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Tiger man said:



			Hybrids are ruining mankind!
		
Click to expand...

Again that's not what was said, possibly more of a symptom of the ruination of mankind.


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Again that's not what was said, possibly more of a symptom of the ruination of mankind.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:Was of course in jest


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 20, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Its human nature to design things/tools to make things easier, that in itself isn't a bad thing, but you see it in almost every walk of life skills and talents are being lost.
		
Click to expand...

Are those skills not made redundant by the new skills. Surly there is skill in the making of the things that make things "easier". 

Is it Mormons that exist with no technology in the US? At what point did they decide that the use of the wheel was just enough tech but not too much?

At the end of the day I would think if the golf equipment rules were closed sooner and we all played with blades and wooden woods it would be just as popular or unpopular as it is now. We would play on shorter courses and shoot the same numbers.


----------



## ChrisB0210 (Dec 20, 2015)

I don't agree that hybrids dumb the game down or make it much easier than traditional irons.

Ultimately, you still have to swing the club and a bad swing still leads to a bad shot. Hybrids aren't a foolproof solution for a poor swing. As I play 3 in my present set I know this for a fact.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Tiger man said:



			:rofl:Was of course in jest
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha of course.&#128517;


----------



## freddielong (Dec 20, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Are those skills not made redundant by the new skills. Surly there is skill in the making of the things that make things "easier". 

Is it Mormons that exist with no technology in the US? At what point did they decide that the use of the wheel was just enough tech but not too much?

At the end of the day I would think if the golf equipment rules were closed sooner and we all played with blades and wooden woods it would be just as popular or unpopular as it is now. We would play on shorter courses and shoot the same numbers.
		
Click to expand...

No it's not Mormons it the amish.

Not if the new skill requires less ability.


----------



## virtuocity (Dec 20, 2015)

From practice, to hybrids, to Amish.

I do love a good GM winter.


----------



## ruff-driver (Dec 20, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			From practice, to hybrids, to Amish.

I do love a good GM winter.
		
Click to expand...

Next seasons pga tour


----------



## Oddsocks (Dec 21, 2015)

Current set is 3-pw, during the winter when the course is shorter I carry 5-w


----------



## Slab (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf, a set of irons were 3-SW
Nowadays, with people buying more hybrids and specialist wedges, is it likely manufacturers will end up selling just 4 irons in a set (6-9)?

I know people will buy whatever clubs makes golf easier and they haven't got time to practice so why bother.......just fill your bag full of hybrids and wedges and bingo, I'm your uncle.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, these tricked up wedges are a blight on the game! If you carry more than two its in the rules, but its kinda like cheating 

Obviously not putting in the time to practice a 1/4, 1/2 or three quarter shot with PW & SW and just sticking some extra loft options in the bag, shame really but that's progress


----------



## ScienceBoy (Dec 21, 2015)

My ideal set is a mixed bag of driver, 3 wood, 5 wood, 3h, 4h, 5h, cavity 6-9 and bladed wedges + putter.

I think that would help me get my lowest possible handicap and score best.

I currently have a 3h only and mid cavity irons. Look nice, I love them but certainly not helping me score my best. I can score well with them but in the long run they probably dont maximise my potential. Thankfully my confidence is high, I trust them. I can hit them well if my alignment and posture are good .

I have them only because this is the set I have. If I ever choose to buy a new set it will be from the ground up (except putter).


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

Let me just clarify if I may..........
I have no problems with technology being used to enhance your skills
I use a 460 driver
I own an 18 deg hybrid which I can swap with my 2 iron, depending on what course I'm playing. Parkland=hybrid, links=2 iron.

What I do find a shame is some people using technology to *replace* a skill.
'I cant putt so I'll buy a new putter'
'I cant get out of bunkers so I'll buy a LW with less/more bounce, different grind, different shaft'
'I cant hit a 5 iron so I'll buy a hybrid'
'I cant hit a 1/2 wedge so I'll buy a LW. 
etc

I'd like to see people experiment with golf more and learn the skills of 'shot making' I think you'd be surprised at how good you can be.
How many options you can have with only one wedge
How to shape the ball with your irons
Learn how to change the height your driver/3 wood go

I know this takes practice and time which some people dont have which is a shame.
But as they say.........
You only get out what you put in and the satisfaction of learning a new skill is something that can't be measured in pound notes.

Don't punish yourself, challenge yourself


----------



## Slab (Dec 21, 2015)

Itâ€™s not that folk donâ€™t have time to expand their skills, itâ€™s more that we donâ€™t need to spend time to learn a redundant skill





If the good people at Cadburyâ€™s have taught us anything it is that if we want success at anything then we should have it now, this instant


----------



## Slab (Dec 21, 2015)

Quick question if anyone knows

Is it true to say that for some manufactures the 5I loft of today is similar to the 3I loft of 50 years ago (no idea how long since you started playing Bob) & despite ever expanding sweet spots/more forgiveness etc the loft that we're attempting to hit consistently well will require the same skill used to hit an oldie 3I? (or a 4I to 2I etc)




Just had a look at AG with near 80 sets of Irons on sale just now... zero, nada, zilch have a 3I in the set, not much point learning how to hit one of them then

Only 50% have a 4I in the set so that's heading south now and wont be long before its extinct

I'd go so far as to promote learning how to use a hybrid to replace your 5I before that's taken away from players too!


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Let me just clarify if I may..........
I have no problems with technology being used to enhance your skills
I use a 460 driver
I own an 18 deg hybrid which I can swap with my 2 iron, depending on what course I'm playing. Parkland=hybrid, links=2 iron.

What I do find a shame is some people using technology to *replace* a skill.
'I cant putt so I'll buy a new putter'
'I cant get out of bunkers so I'll buy a LW with less/more bounce, different grind, different shaft'
'I cant hit a 5 iron so I'll buy a hybrid'
'I cant hit a 1/2 wedge so I'll buy a LW. 
etc

I'd like to see people experiment with golf more and learn the skills of 'shot making' I think you'd be surprised at how good you can be.
How many options you can have with only one wedge
How to shape the ball with your irons
Learn how to change the height your driver/3 wood go

I know this takes practice and time which some people dont have which is a shame.
But as they say.........
You only get out what you put in and the satisfaction of learning a new skill is something that can't be measured in pound notes.

Don't punish yourself, challenge yourself
		
Click to expand...

Great post Bob


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Let me just clarify if I may..........
I have no problems with technology being used to enhance your skills
I use a 460 driver
I own an 18 deg hybrid which I can swap with my 2 iron, depending on what course I'm playing. Parkland=hybrid, links=2 iron.

What I do find a shame is some people using technology to *replace* a skill.
'I cant putt so I'll buy a new putter'
'I cant get out of bunkers so I'll buy a LW with less/more bounce, different grind, different shaft'
'I cant hit a 5 iron so I'll buy a hybrid'
'I cant hit a 1/2 wedge so I'll buy a LW. 
etc

I'd like to see people experiment with golf more and learn the skills of 'shot making' I think you'd be surprised at how good you can be.
How many options you can have with only one wedge
How to shape the ball with your irons
Learn how to change the height your driver/3 wood go

I know this takes practice and time which some people dont have which is a shame.
But as they say.........
You only get out what you put in and the satisfaction of learning a new skill is something that can't be measured in pound notes.

Don't punish yourself, challenge yourself
		
Click to expand...

The sentiment is spot on and the point about time/practise is probably the biggest issue for people, 
The rules allow you to carry 14 clubs, so surely it's about maximising that to suit your game, some carry 2 wedges some 4, some carry the 5Iron and 5Hybrid why struggle with a club when  changing your set up will give you what you want and save on time and practise, the practise can then be targeted elsewhere.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

Depends which irons you look at.
The irons aimed at the lower handicap like the Titleist MB, the Ping S55 and a few of the Mizuno range MP4, MP5, MP 15 MP 25 etc all have 3 irons at 21 degrees which is the same as my 3 iron which is 28 years old.




			I'd go so far as to promote learning how to use a hybrid to replace your 5I before that's taken away from players too!
		
Click to expand...

I dont think the 5 iron will ever be taken away from players


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

Hogan had 7 clubs from 150 yards in... I have the same. Beyond that I just want to get the ball to the hole. 

Last year I used Driver, 3 wood, hybrid, 4-PW, 3 wedges and a blade putter. This year I am Driver, 6 hybrids, 3 irons, 3 wedges and the biggest putter in the world. Last few 9s I average scratch (clearly it does not really count for anything). 

Have I dumbed things down... As I write this I kinda think I have. Am I enjoying myself... Hell yes!


----------



## garyinderry (Dec 21, 2015)

Most people don't have the club head speed for a old school blade 3 iron.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Let me just clarify if I may..........
I have no problems with technology being used to enhance your skills
I use a 460 driver
I own an 18 deg hybrid which I can swap with my 2 iron, depending on what course I'm playing. Parkland=hybrid, links=2 iron.

What I do find a shame is some people using technology to *replace* a skill.
'I cant putt so I'll buy a new putter'
'I cant get out of bunkers so I'll buy a LW with less/more bounce, different grind, different shaft'
'I cant hit a 5 iron so I'll buy a hybrid'
'I cant hit a 1/2 wedge so I'll buy a LW. 
etc

I'd like to see people experiment with golf more and learn the skills of 'shot making' I think you'd be surprised at how good you can be.
How many options you can have with only one wedge
How to shape the ball with your irons
Learn how to change the height your driver/3 wood go

I know this takes practice and time which some people dont have which is a shame.
But as they say.........
You only get out what you put in and the satisfaction of learning a new skill is something that can't be measured in pound notes.

Don't punish yourself, challenge yourself
		
Click to expand...

Why is it punishing yourself for using whatever way you wish 

The aim of golf is to get the ball in hole - that's it 

There is nothing special about using only one wedge or 2 irons 

It's the satisfaction of playing the game with friends and getting low scores


----------



## rksquire (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf, a set of irons were 3-SW
Nowadays, with people buying more hybrids and specialist wedges, is it likely manufacturers will end up selling just 4 irons in a set (6-9)?

I know people will buy whatever clubs makes golf easier and they haven't got time to practice so why bother.......just fill your bag full of hybrids and wedges and bingo, I'm your uncle.
		
Click to expand...

The world moves on, attitudes, technology and society etc. and that applies to golf - no point standing still.  I only have 1 hybrid but am considering an addition in the new year.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is it punishing yourself for using whatever way you wish 

The aim of golf is to get the ball in hole - that's it 

There is nothing special about using only one wedge or 2 irons 

It's the satisfaction of playing the game with friends and getting low scores
		
Click to expand...

I know you don't like seeing someone else's point of view but the points you don't get astound me at times.

Bob is saying it shouldn't be impossible but it should be a challenge.


----------



## BoadieBroadus (Dec 21, 2015)

it is true that people might be thinking they are using technology to replace a skill, but i have rarely ever seen a new club overcome the swing fault that caused the original problem.

the player who couldn't hit a 5 iron off a tee probably won't be able to hit the new hybrid off the tee well either. no matter what they say, new clubs aren't that more forgiving.

on the subject of hybrids, i tend to think that if you took your clubs back in time to st andrews of 1800's the golfers of the day would be much more familiar with the head shape, loft and shaft length of our hybrids than they would of the drivers and fairways we carry now. so to suggest that hybrids are something new is incorrect...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I know you don't like seeing someone else's point of view but the points you don't get astound me at times.

Bob is saying it shouldn't be impossible but it should be a challenge.
		
Click to expand...

Golf still is a challenge - it is never how it's how many 

You can insult people by calling it's no skill or dumbing down etc but golf is getting the ball into the hole in as few as shots is possible


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

Depends on why you play the game really.  If you get your kicks my mastering all the intricacies of the game, shape shots both ways and have enough skills to manufacture shots with clubs then knock yourself out, feel free to use as 'traditional' a set as you want. If you get your kicks by using the latest technology to get the ball in the hole in the fewer shots as possible then use all the help you can get.  Or if you are somewhere in between then mix and match.

I kind of know where I stand, I'll take all the help on offer as it is just a leisure pass time to me. And I have not got the time and skill to make the game harder for myself than it already is. Trust me, it provides more than enough of a challenge even with a bag full of hybrids and frying pan sized drivers. 

But there's no right or wrong answer, as long as all approaches are catered for and you are free to do what you want.


----------



## MendieGK (Dec 21, 2015)

I tend to agree with both parts of the argument here.

Are golfers incentivized to improve and work on something nowadays as much as they used to be? no. 

Does it really matter as long as it gets people playing? no.

for what its worth, I've recently dropped my hybrid and put a 2iron in the bag, largely because of the high club head speed I generate and the tendency to hook a hybrid. 

I'm also about to take delivery of a set of blades for my new set of irons. However, if an OS set of irons would have been better for me, would i have bought them? 100%


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I know you don't like seeing someone else's point of view but the points you don't get astound me at times.

Bob is saying it shouldn't be impossible but* it should be a challenge*.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect that if you went to any course on any day of the week and asked everyone if they thought the game was providing a sufficient enough level of challenge then the vast majority would say it was.  I'd say you could probably make a much stronger argument for all the tech making the game easier for pros.  For for (most of) the rest of the people that play golf, and those who need to be encouraged to play golf if the game is to remain a major sport, it has/will made the game more enjoyable.  

Yes of course it provides more instant gratification, but that boat sailed a long time ago in society.  After all, how many of us are writing beautifully structured letters to GM?  Or how many of us have possibly lost the art of doing that, but instead can use technology and a browser spell checker to make our point in seconds on a forum?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			I tend to agree with both parts of the argument here.

Are golfers incentivized to improve and work on something nowadays as much as they used to be? no. 

Does it really matter as long as it gets people playing? no.

for what its worth, I've recently dropped my hybrid and put a 2iron in the bag, largely because of the high club head speed I generate and the tendency to hook a hybrid. 

I'm also about to take delivery of a set of blades for my new set of irons. However, if an OS set of irons would have been better for me, would i have bought them? 100%
		
Click to expand...

That's it summed up well 

I'm going for fitting and fully happy to have OS if that's what is shown to be better for me


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Golf still is a challenge - it is never how it's how many 

You can insult people by calling it's no skill or dumbing down etc but golf is getting the ball into the hole in as few as shots is possible
		
Click to expand...

I have not insulted anyone if anyone has been insulted then that is on them, just stated golf is being made easier.

Just stated a fact.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

A 2 handicap golfer moves from a links course to a parkland course so he takes out the 2 iron 'driller' and replaces it with an 18 degree hybrid 'floater'.
He also changes his wedges for more bounce for the long lush fairways. He buys a heavier putter for the slower greens.
Dumbing down?
I think not.

A 22 handicap golfer cant hit a 5 iron due to a rubbish swing so buys a 5 hybrid.
He duffs his wedges so buys more wedges. His putting stroke is all over the place so he keeps buying more putters
Dumbing down?

By all means use technology to enhance your skills but dont try and replace a skill with the latest shiney
Those who do may end up with a rubbish technique and a garage full of drivers, wedges and putters


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			A 2 handicap golfer moves from a links course to a parkland course so he takes out the 2 iron 'driller' and replaces it with an 18 degree hybrid 'floater'.
He also changes his wedges for more bounce for the long lush fairways. He buys a heavier putter for the slower greens.
Dumbing down?
I think not.

A 22 handicap golfer cant hit a 5 iron due to a rubbish swing so buys a 5 hybrid.
He duffs his wedges so buys more wedges. His putting stroke is all over the place so he keeps buying more putters
Dumbing down?

By all means use technology to enhance your skills but dont try and replace a skill with the latest shiney
Those who do may end up with a rubbish technique and a garage full of drivers, wedges and putters
		
Click to expand...


Ahh ok, so this is not about dumbing down at all, its about "dont try and buy a game"


----------



## ScienceBoy (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			its about "dont try and buy a game"
		
Click to expand...

That's what lessons are for!


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

ScienceBoy said:



			That's what lessons are for!
		
Click to expand...

Hehe :clap:


----------



## Qwerty (Dec 21, 2015)

For me it isn't about 'Dumbing Down'.  Personally I'd say that a long iron is far easier to control and much more Versatile providing you can find the Middle of the Club.
In the same way that you get more feel from a players iron than a SGI shovel.
Why are most wedges Bladed??  

But If you disagree and you can hit a variety of shots with your Hybrid, Fair Enough.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			A 2 handicap golfer moves from a links course to a parkland course so he takes out the 2 iron 'driller' and replaces it with an 18 degree hybrid 'floater'.
He also changes his wedges for more bounce for the long lush fairways. He buys a heavier putter for the slower greens.
Dumbing down?
I think not.

A 22 handicap golfer cant hit a 5 iron due to a rubbish swing so buys a 5 hybrid.
He duffs his wedges so buys more wedges. His putting stroke is all over the place so he keeps buying more putters
Dumbing down?

By all means use technology to enhance your skills but dont try and replace a skill with the latest shiney
Those who do may end up with a rubbish technique and a garage full of drivers, wedges and putters
		
Click to expand...

But in a way the fact that people do buy clubs on a regular basis is sustaining part of the game as a whole. And it also sustains golf magazines so they can provide forums for us all to rant away on. 

And by your admission there, they still will not have bought the skill, so the game has not really become any easier to them.  It is still a challenge, arguably more of one if they have a hybrid where they need to keep it low. Yes they may have a garage full of clubs (guilty as charged sir) but is that really doing anyone any harm? As if they want to take the game a bit more seriously then they will have lessons.


----------



## Three (Dec 21, 2015)

Hybrids are obviously easier, that's why they were invented. 
For those of you who hook your hybrids, I found out a few years ago that I should always have a stiffer shaft in the hybrid than the irons, eg stiff in irons so X in the hybrid. This has served me well and I recommend to try.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

Three said:



*Hybrids are obviously easier, that's why they were invented*. 
For those of you who hook your hybrids, I found out a few years ago that I should always have a stiffer shaft in the hybrid than the irons, eg stiff in irons so X in the hybrid. This has served me well and I recommend to try.
		
Click to expand...

No its not, they were invented to launch higher and land softer.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			No its not, they were invented to launch higher and land softer.
		
Click to expand...

No they weren't that is just something they do, they were invented as an alternative to long irons because long irons are a difficult skill to aquire.

And of course the club's are not going to play shots for you but every added little bit of "Artificial consistency" makes the game easier.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2015)

BoadieBroadus said:



			the player who couldn't hit a 5 iron off a tee probably won't be able to hit the new hybrid off the tee well either. no matter what they say, new clubs aren't that more forgiving.
		
Click to expand...

But is that any different to someone not be able to use a particular Driver then buys one they can.

Sometimes it's between the ears were the problem lies&#128515;


----------



## Three (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			No its not, they were invented to launch higher and land softer.
		
Click to expand...

Hence making it easier.

Plus they are more forgiving for off-centre hits.


----------



## Canfordhacker (Dec 21, 2015)

Try as I might, hitting my hybrid into a strong wind or punching a low draw under the trees remains too difficult. Which is why I keep my three iron in the bag  . But just off the fairway and 180 out in the first cut? Hybrid every time.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			No they weren't that is just something they do, they were invented as an alternative to long irons because long irons are a difficult skill to aquire.

And of course the club's are not going to play shots for you but every added little bit of "Artificial consistency"* makes the game easier*.
		
Click to expand...

OK, genuine question.  Do you think we have got to the stage where the game is too easy so that is not a challenge for the vast majority of amateurs that play the game?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

Three said:



			Hence making it easier.

*Plus they are more forgiving for off-centre hits*.
		
Click to expand...

But you could argue that that is the case for every single iron, driver, wedge and hybrid release there has ever been when they are updating their ranges.  Has any manufacturer ever launched a new club and said "this is less forgiving on off centre hits?"


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, genuine question.  Do you think we have got to the stage where the game is too easy so that is not a challenge for the vast majority of amateurs that play the game?
		
Click to expand...

No not yet.

But I do think we are near a tipping point.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



*No they weren't that is just something they do*, they were invented as an alternative to long irons because long irons are a difficult skill to aquire.

And of course the club's are not going to play shots for you but every added little bit of "Artificial consistency" makes the game easier.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry, that's not the case. Long irons fly too flat to land on hard modern greens. Hybrids were designed to combat that and  to land soft at long range.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Sorry, that's not the case. Long irons fly too flat to land on hard modern greens. Hybrids were designed to combat that and  to land soft at long range.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry that is not true.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Sorry that is not true.
		
Click to expand...

Going to have to agree to disagree. I am pretty sure of myself though... I would like the facts if you have some evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			No not yet.

But I do think we are near a tipping point.
		
Click to expand...

So we are getting very close to the stage where the tech in clubs/balls will be enough to make up for poor technique for the vast majority of players?  Can't see it myself, especially with the way the tolerances are so heavily regulated by the governing bodies.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			So we are getting very close to the stage where the tech in clubs/balls will be enough to make up for poor technique for the vast majority of players?  Can't see it myself, especially with the way the tolerances are so heavily regulated by the governing bodies.
		
Click to expand...

I think we are closer than we should be yes


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			So we are getting very close to the stage where the tech in clubs/balls will be enough to make up for poor technique for the vast majority of players?  Can't see it myself, especially with the way the *tolerances are so heavily regulated by the governing bodies*.
		
Click to expand...


And have been for a pretty long time!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I think we are closer than we should be yes
		
Click to expand...

Suppose it depends on how you define 'should be'. Should be for who, the elite amateur, the pro, the mid range handicapper, the happy hacker, the potential golfer that has not yet got into the game.  

You will struggle to find a solution for all parties the way the game currently is.  I think to be fair to the governing bodies that have mostly done a decent job in trying to keep everyone playing to the same rules and using the same equipment.  But I've heard/read calls for the game to be made easier for the amateur so we can grow the game and harder for the pros so most courses do not become a drive and pitch for them. And club and ball technology is a major part of that. So maybe bifurcation is the only sensible way forwards.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I think we are closer than we should be yes
		
Click to expand...

So why are average HC no different to 20/30 years ago ? 

If you believe the game is easier why aren't average HC coming down ? Why aren't course records and scores getting better ?


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why are average HC no different to 20/30 years ago ? 

If you believe the game is easier why aren't average HC coming down ? Why aren't course records and scores getting better ?
		
Click to expand...

Because people are too busy to practice


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Because people are too busy to practice
		
Click to expand...

I know plenty who practise lots , use hybrids etc but HC hasn't come down 

Maybe just maybe the game is still as hard to master as it always used to be


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why are average HC no different to 20/30 years ago ? 

If you believe the game is easier why aren't average HC coming down ? Why aren't course records and scores getting better ?
		
Click to expand...

Because people play less and don't put the time in, the guys at the top of the amateur ranks who put the time in are way lower handicap wise than they used to be.

25 years ago the one or two lowest club golfers on the island played off 2 now we have at least 10 players playing off plus numbers.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know plenty who practise lots , use hybrids etc but HC hasn't come down 

Maybe just maybe the game is still as hard to master as it always used to be
		
Click to expand...

When I learned my golf, you bought a whole set, irons and woods. (1,2,3,4 normally) The only real choice you had was persimmon or laminated woods. The ball was small and it went nowhere. And if you found it you had no idea how far you had to go as there were no 150 markers. The bunkers were ill maintained and the greens weren't much better. I cycled there and back and carried my bag. And as a junior, I wasn't allowed to tee off if adults were waiting. But I still loved it and spent all my spare time there playing and practicing


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Because people play less and don't put the time in, the guys at the top of the amateur ranks who put the time in are way lower handicap wise than they used to be.

25 years ago the one or two lowest club golfers on the island played off 2 now we have at least 10 players playing off plus numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Im guessing that's all backed up by surveys and factual evidence ? 

Or is it just your opinion 

I know people that play week in week out , practise regualry but HC stays as it is 

Not seen any factual back up to provide the evidence to suggest that the game is easier now


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I learned my golf, you bought a whole set, irons and woods. (1,2,3,4 normally) The only real choice you had was persimmon or laminated woods. The ball was small and it went nowhere. And if you found it you had no idea how far you had to go as there were no 150 markers. The bunkers were ill maintained and the greens weren't much better. I cycled there and back and carried my bag. And as a junior, I wasn't allowed to tee off if adults were waiting. But I still loved it and spent all my spare time there playing and practicing
		
Click to expand...

But that doesn't mean that golf is easier now 

Courses are longer , tougher , greens are bigger and quicker , more water , more bunkering, course designed to test 

Still just as hard to put the ball in the hole


----------



## Qwerty (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Because people play less and don't put the time in, the guys at the top of the amateur ranks who put the time in are way lower handicap wise than they used to be.

25 years ago the one or two lowest club golfers on the island played off 2 now we have at least 10 players playing off plus numbers.
		
Click to expand...

:thup:

There was a guy on here a couple of weeks ago saying he played in the British Amateur at Nairn 10 years ago and he was able to get in to the event off +0.3 as that was a very low H'cap back then.
Nowadays I'd imagine you'd have to be considerably lower to qualify.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know plenty who practise lots , use hybrids etc but HC hasn't come down 

Maybe just maybe the game is still as hard to master as it always used to be
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha

So you drive it further and straighter with less side spin , your irons go further they are much much more forgiving the stop from everywhere, your putter is more balanced, the balls travel further and deviate less in the wind, grips are better so playing in the rain is easy, every aspect of the game is easier, but overall the games not easier.

Ok I'll have whatever your having please


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But that doesn't mean that golf is easier now 

Courses are longer , tougher , greens are bigger and quicker , more water , more bunkering, course designed to test 

Still just as hard to put the ball in the hole
		
Click to expand...

The ball is bigger, the hole is the same size....


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ha ha

So you drive it further and straighter with less side spin , your irons go further they are much much more forgiving the stop from everywhere, your putter is more balanced, the balls travel further and deviate less in the wind, grips are better so playing in the rain is easy, every aspect of the game is easier, but overall the games not easier.

Ok I'll have whatever your having please
		
Click to expand...

So why are the scores not getting better and HC not coming tumbling down ?


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But that doesn't mean that golf is easier now 

Courses are longer , tougher , greens are bigger and quicker , more water , more bunkering, course designed to test 

Still just as hard to put the ball in the hole
		
Click to expand...

Championship courses may be. My home course is still the same as it was 40 years ago


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why are the scores not getting better and HC not coming tumbling down ?
		
Click to expand...

Scores at the top end have come down


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But that doesn't mean that golf is easier now 

Courses are longer , tougher , greens are bigger and quicker , more water , more bunkering, course designed to test 

Still just as hard to put the ball in the hole
		
Click to expand...

Some courses are harder the majority are the same more or less.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why are the scores not getting better and HC not coming tumbling down ?
		
Click to expand...

Because people are too busy to practice 
We're going round in circles here.

Phil, before I finish, how can you really argue about the standard of golf now and the standard back in the 70s when you weren't born until 1973?


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

We are now going round in circles but I have never seen a post with so little evidence or fact from either point of view.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			We are now going round in circles but I have never seen a post with so little evidence or fact from either point of view.
		
Click to expand...

OK, some other opinion from the 'let's not make it harder' argument  http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/new...my-view-on-what-the-game-of-golf-needs-to-do/


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Because people are too busy to practice 
We're going round in circles here.

Phil, before I finish, how can you really argue about the standard of golf now and the standard back in the 70s when you weren't born until 1973?
		
Click to expand...

I play with plenty who played the game through those years who suggest the game is still just as hard 

Until someone produces something to show that the game is easier then it's just opinions


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, some other opinion from the 'let's not make it harder' argument  http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/new...my-view-on-what-the-game-of-golf-needs-to-do/

Click to expand...

"It needs to have the stigma taken away from it that itâ€™s an old manâ€™s game" ... Is that relevant to this post?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I play with plenty who played the game through those years who suggest the game is still just as hard 

Until someone produces something to show that the game is easier then it's just opinions
		
Click to expand...

Phil I find the fact that you you would argue with bobmac given his years working in the game and his experience as a coach and professional based on a hunch remarkably arrogant and disrespectful.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Phil I find the fact that you you would argue with bobmac given his years working in the game and his experience as a coach and professional based on a hunch remarkably arrogant and disrespectful.
		
Click to expand...

I'd disagree. This is a subjective debate in which there are different opinions. A pro's opinion does not necessarily hold more weight than any other.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Phil I find the fact that you you would argue with bobmac given his years working in the game and his experience as a coach and professional based on a hunch remarkably arrogant and disrespectful.
		
Click to expand...

Ive no problem with Phil having a different opinion than me, even if it's not his own.
 Live and let live.

I've said my piece. 
If only one person practices more and buys less stuff then I'll be happy


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			I'd disagree. This is a subjective debate in which there are different opinions. A pro's opinion does not necessarily hold more weight than any other.
		
Click to expand...

Ok

Name an area of the game that hasn't been made easier in the last 10 years


----------



## Fish (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			We are now going round in circles.
		
Click to expand...

It's becoming more and more of a recurring theme on lots of topics &#128544;


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ok

Name an area of the game that hasn't been made easier in the last 10 years
		
Click to expand...

It was your opinion that previous posts are arrogant and disrespectful I disagreed with.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			It was your opinion that previous posts are arrogant and disrespectful I disagreed with.
		
Click to expand...

That's the world we live in i supose anyone with a keyboard now thinks their opinion is as valid an an expert who has 30 plus years experience.

Sad


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ok

Name an area of the game that hasn't been made easier in the last 10 years
		
Click to expand...

I think the argument was more about whether the fact that it has got a bit easier is a bad thing.  Well that's what I was debating anyway. I'm not sure anyone can really argue that advances in club and ball technology has not made it easier to hit a shot in vaguely the intended direction. But I think you are vastly overestimating the effect that has had on the game in general at the level the vast majority of amateurs play at in regards to challenge. 

And to me the upside of increased enjoyment and engagement by those using the new technology through a shot going a bit further, straighter or higher vastly outweighs any downsides in that the game is not challenging enough, or the worry that it may not be shortly if things continue.  

But then again even I think I'm going round in circles now so I'll bob out.  And go and buy myself a new wedge as my short game is bloody awful at the moment.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the argument was more about whether the fact that it has got a bit easier is a bad thing.  Well that's what I was debating anyway. I'm not sure anyone can really argue that advances in club and ball technology has made it easier to hit a shot in vaguely the intended direction. But I think you are vastly overestimating the effect that has had on the game in general at the level the vast majority of amateurs play at in regards to challenge. 

And to me the upside of increased enjoyment and engagement by those using the new technology through a shot going a bit further, straighter or higher vastly outweighs any downsides in that the game is not challenging enough, or the worry that it may not be shortly if things continue.  

But then again even I think I'm going round in circles now so I'll bob out.  And go and buy myself a new wedge as my short game is bloody awful at the moment. 

Click to expand...

That is were it started but certain people were adamant that the game was not easier


----------



## Fish (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			That is were it started but A certain person was adamant that the game was not easier
		
Click to expand...

Edited &#128077;


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Phil I find the fact that you you would argue with bobmac given his years working in the game and his experience as a coach and professional based on a hunch remarkably arrogant and disrespectful.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing - I'm offering an opinion to a person I respect and had a few rounds of golf with.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm not arguing - I'm offering an opinion to a person I respect and had a few rounds of golf with.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry not arguing just telling him he was wrong

Tomatos, tomatoes


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

Do you mind if I ask you how old you are Freddie?


----------



## tugglesf239 (Dec 21, 2015)

What I can't fathom, from any poster yet, is what is actually wrong with the game being a fraction (and we are talking fractions) easier?

Seems a very elitist point of view if I'm being honest.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Do you mind if I ask you how old you are Freddie?
		
Click to expand...

I am 43 I have played golf since I was 11 so I know what I am talking about


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

tugglesf239 said:



			What I can't fathom, from any poster yet, is what is actually wrong with the game being a fraction (and we are talking fractions) easier?

Seems a very elitist point of view if I'm being honest.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe it is, but I think some of the fractions are fairly sizeable and i would rather people put the effort in and got better the old fashioned way.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Maybe it is, but I think some of the fractions are fairly sizeable and i would rather people put the effort in and got better the old fashioned way.
		
Click to expand...

You're 43 not 93! Maybe we shoukd wear collar and tie and tweeds when we play, then let's see the blighters swing a club&#128515;


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Maybe it is, but I think some of the fractions are fairly sizeable and i would rather people put the effort in and got better the old fashioned way.
		
Click to expand...

So time to bring back the mashie , the persimmon driver etc 

That's the old fashioned way is it not ?


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I am 43 I have played golf since I was 11 so I know what I am talking about
		
Click to expand...

I'm a little surprised, your very much a traditionalist, I had you down as nearly double that. 

Not questioning whether you know what your on about as all you have done is give an opinion. Opinions can't be wrong. 

How come the very traditional out look and dislike you the wider youth?


----------



## One Planer (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So time to bring back the mashie , the persimmon driver etc 

That's the old fashioned way is it not ?
		
Click to expand...

I think Freddie was referring to learning to hit clubs as opposed to the type of club. 


But I'm guessing you already knew that :smirk:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

One Planer said:



			I think Freddie was referring to learning to hit clubs as opposed to the type of club. 


But I'm guessing you already knew that :smirk:
		
Click to expand...

Surely everyone will learn to hit a club in their own way anyway - that happens naturally. 

If someone buys a hybrid and then spends a week practising with it , it then becomes ok ? 

There just seems to be a sniff of elitism in regards what clubs people use and this supposed "old fashioned" way.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone buys a hybrid and then spends a week practising with it , it then becomes ok?
		
Click to expand...

:clap:


Would be nice but... No. 3 iron or your cheating


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			I'm a little surprised, your very much a traditionalist, I had you down as nearly double that. 

Not questioning whether you know what your on about as all you have done is give an opinion. Opinions can't be wrong. 

How come the very traditional out look and dislike you the wider youth?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know I like things to be done properly and I honestly think some of the updates make the game easier rather than better.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 21, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I don't know I like things to be done properly and I honestly think some of the updates make the game easier rather than better.
		
Click to expand...

So in fairness, why do you not have wooden shafts? A leather ball? At what point in time was it where things were being done "properly" ? Was it not proper before that time? Are cavity backs too far? 

On what day in history did things reach the prefect level of properness where it was hard enough without being spoiled?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			So in fairness, why do you not have wooden shafts? A leather ball? At what point in time was it where things were being done "properly" ? Was it not proper before that time? Are cavity backs too far? 

On what day in history did things reach the prefect level of properness where it was hard enough without being spoiled?
		
Click to expand...

26th March 1964&#128515;


----------



## freddielong (Dec 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			So in fairness, why do you not have wooden shafts? A leather ball? At what point in time was it where things were being done "properly" ? Was it not proper before that time? Are cavity backs too far? 

On what day in history did things reach the prefect level of properness where it was hard enough without being spoiled?
		
Click to expand...

I would love to go back to wooden shafts but I wouldn't be able to compete.

For me golf was a better game prior to the birth of big drivers you still needed ability to hit the ball.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2015)

I work hard at my game, have fairly forgiving irons in my bag, and have had tuition. Is the game easy? No of course not but I've maintained I can get better. Technology will continue to help me and I definitely don't want to go back to balata and persimmon. I can definitely improve my 5 iron but I hit it well enough for my level to justify keeping it and not sticking another hybrid in. Others don't work on their game because they don't want to or don't have time and some on here have improved quicker than me. Not sure how you quantify whether practice justifies the make up of the bag. Of course, while technology has undoubtedly made golf more accessible with SGI clubs, it still takes a degree of co-ordination to play half decently some of the time. That won't change wherever equipment goes in the future


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

This thread is NOT about going back to the old days of wooden clubs and ties.
It was supposed to be about improving your skills rather than buying more clubs.
If you cant hit a half wedge, practice.
If your driver slices, learn to hit it straight.
If you cant putt, have lessons and practice.

Why?
1. Having lessons is cheaper than buying new clubs
2. You'll play better and enjoy your golf more
3. The satisfaction of learning new skills.
4. Having space in your garage for your car
5. Learning a swing that can hit anything 
6. And when someone asks you what your handicap is you dont say it's 20 something but I've got a great set of clubs.

Get out there, learn how to play golf and stop trying to buy a game.

For those of you who want to go back to the 'good old days'....start your own thread.
Thank you






One more bottle of Cabernet Shiraz coming right up   :cheers:


----------



## Crow (Dec 21, 2015)

bobmac said:



			This thread is NOT about going back to the old days of wooden clubs and ties.
It was supposed to be about improving your skills rather than buying more clubs.
If you cant hit a half wedge, practice.
If your driver slices, learn to hit it straight.
If you cant putt, have lessons and practice.

Why?
1. Having lessons is cheaper than buying new clubs
2. You'll play better and enjoy your golf more
3. The satisfaction of learning new skills.
4. Having space in your garage for your car
5. Learning a swing that can hit anything 
6. And when someone asks you what your handicap is you dont say it's 20 something but I've got a great set of clubs.

Get out there, learn how to play golf and stop trying to buy a game.

For those of you who want to go back to the 'good old days'....start your own thread.
Thank you


One more bottle of Cabernet Shiraz coming right up   :cheers:
		
Click to expand...

I'll join you in a toast to that, although I'm currently qauffing a bit of Malbec. :cheers:


----------



## bobmac (Dec 21, 2015)

Crow said:



			I'm currently qauffing a bit of Malbec. :cheers:
		
Click to expand...

I thought that was the new Mercedes


----------



## Leereed (Dec 21, 2015)

Might just be me but why would anybody want to make the game any harder?
i started about 5-6 years ago so only know the clubs as they are now.I have got down to 12 with hard work and playing a lot.A lad we play with off 28(more like 38)you could give him the best most forgiving clubs and it would make no difference to his game. He's just crap.


----------



## Slab (Dec 22, 2015)

bobmac said:



			This thread is NOT about going back to the old days of wooden clubs and ties.
It was supposed to be about improving your skills rather than buying more clubs.
If you cant hit a half wedge, practice.
If your driver slices, learn to hit it straight.
If you cant putt, have lessons and practice.

Why?
1. Having lessons is cheaper than buying new clubs
2. You'll play better and enjoy your golf more
3. The satisfaction of learning new skills.
4. Having space in your garage for your car
5. Learning a swing that can hit anything 
6. And when someone asks you what your handicap is you dont say it's 20 something but I've got a great set of clubs.

Get out there, learn how to play golf and stop trying to buy a game.

For those of you who want to go back to the 'good old days'....start your own thread.
Thank you






One more bottle of Cabernet Shiraz coming right up   :cheers:
		
Click to expand...



I get where you're coming from given your job etc but that's hardly what your opening post suggested the thread was about, unless its all contained in the 'why bother' comment, apportioning the blame to the player

The golf market, like most, is a supply and (create) demand market, not demand and create supply (innovation to correct a problem can be there too)

Golfers didn't go the the manufactures and say take away our 3I's and give us an easier hybrid club to hit. The manufactures/the trade, presented the hybrid to the player as a commercial venture, created a very successful demand & becasue of that and other factors, eventually took away the 3I to get to where we are now. And its the same for space age putters, booming drivers and magic wedges

If there's a list of reasons folk don't have enough lessons to improve then 'time' will certainly be up near the top but so will other things like the quality of the teaching pro, perceived return on investment, consumer choice, confusion, inflexible approach to teaching, past experiences and several others 
(I actually had one lesson that physically hurt when attempting the lower back movement the pro persisted with even after being told and ended as a wholly un-enjoyable experience that still puts me off lessons) 

Whether they are valid or not the reasons for not having a lesson to improve doesn't begin & end with 'why bother I can always buy xyz' and of course you can have a dig at the player but I'd love to hear your thoughts on your colleagues contribution to the current state of affairs too


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ok

Name an area of the game that hasn't been made easier in the last 10 years
		
Click to expand...

With all the advances in clubs, balls and other equipment that make the game "easier", why hasn't the average handicap dropped in relation????
I don't think that's moved for 25 years or more.
I remember when Beryllium wedges became the latest "must have" a good few years ago. You had to have them, or so we were led to believe.
I asked my then club pro what discernible difference they made.
"More money in the tills" came the reply.
Golf has not become easier. We have become more gullible.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			With all the advances in clubs, balls and other equipment that make the game "easier", why hasn't the average handicap dropped in relation????
I don't think that's moved for 25 years or more.
I remember when Beryllium wedges became the latest "must have" a good few years ago. You had to have them, or so we were led to believe.
I asked my then club pro what discernible difference they made.
"More money in the tills" came the reply.
Golf has not become easier. We have become more gullible.
		
Click to expand...

So you believe every aspect of the game has been made easier, but overall the game isn't easier.


----------



## patricks148 (Dec 22, 2015)

The game must be easier that i was with wooded headed clubs and everyone having to use a blade iron.

I don'y know why the av handicap has not dropped since them, maybe there are more lower handicaps that back then and that has made up for more guys in the higher handicap sections..

I only started playing with modern equipment, so didn't play beck then, but have used older stuff on the odd occasion and that was much harder to use.


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			So you believe every aspect of the game has been made easier, but overall the game isn't easier.
		
Click to expand...

No.
I said that despite people saying that equipment has improved and therefore made the game easier, the "average" handicap doesn't back this up!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2015)

For me 

It maybe easier to hit the ball with certain clubs 

But that doesn't mean the game itself is easier and IMO it's still just as hard to get the ball into the hole


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me 

It maybe easier to hit the ball with certain clubs 

But that doesn't mean the game itself is easier and IMO it's still just as hard to get the ball into the hole
		
Click to expand...

Although because you are hitting it further and with more control, you are now on average closer to the hole and your putter is perfectly balanced, the balls are rounder and the greens are better, you still have to put the ball in the hole, so it's not easier is that it.


----------



## Junior (Dec 22, 2015)

I 100% get the opening post. 

I'm pants right now.  I've gone from shooting sub 80's in most of my rounds to mid 80's pretty much every time I tee it up.  

When I was scoring in the 70's , I feel I could put any club in my hands and hit it well (2i's / 3i's etc) My belief was that if I could improve my chipping / putting, I could be close to a cat 1 handicap.  

Right now, after the weekend, and after the range last night, I'm missing greens with 9i's.  

I'm old and ugly enough to realise that no new gear will fix missing greens with 9i's.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			No.
I said that despite people saying that equipment has improved and therefore made the game easier, the "average" handicap doesn't back this up!
		
Click to expand...

I don't see that, less people are playing and those that are playing practice less.  I can go to our practice area pretty much anytime I want in the summer and there is no one there. 

If the handicap hasn't moved it's because the average golfer no longer needs to practice to maintain their handicap due to the game being easier.


From my experience the average category 1 handicap is a lot lower.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Although because you are hitting it further and with more control, you are now on average closer to the hole and your putter is perfectly balanced, the balls are rounder and the greens are better, you still have to put the ball in the hole, so it's not easier is that it.
		
Click to expand...

That's what happened as I improved over the years from playing regulary 

As opposed to just picking up a certain club and doing what you suggest


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's what happened as I improved over the years from playing regulary 

As opposed to just picking up a certain club and doing what you suggest
		
Click to expand...

Ok Phil

It's all you well done


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ok Phil

It's all you well done
		
Click to expand...

What category HC are you ? Are you a PGA Pro


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What category HC are you ? Are you a PGA Pro
		
Click to expand...

No, I have been a cat 1 golfer since I was a junior.

I finally see why you are so desperate not to admit that golf is easier, you think it will detract from your achievement.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			No, I have been a cat 1 golfer since I was a junior.

I finally see why you are so desperate not to admit that golf is easier, you think it will detract from your achievement.
		
Click to expand...

My achievement ?


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I don't see that, less people are playing and those that are playing practice less.  I can go to our practice area pretty much anytime I want in the summer and there is no one there. 

If the handicap hasn't moved it's because the average golfer no longer needs to practice to maintain their handicap due to the game being easier.


From my experience the average category 1 handicap is a lot lower.
		
Click to expand...

That's a fair old list of assumptions.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Just brought new irons in 5-W.

First thing I did once ordered was to start looking for the matching 4 iron.

*I find long irons give me a more controlled flight. Hybrids are always a litte hooky, *even the 19Â° I carry.
		
Click to expand...

That's me - got a bit fed up with my hooky-flighty hybrid so relearning how to hit my 3i and 4i - and getting good result.  Good strong penetrating flight.

Hybrid remains handy for playing out of slightly poorer fairway lies and first cut rough


----------



## brendy (Dec 22, 2015)

It has made moving the ball forwards in a reasonable manner easier. You still have to put it in the hole though.
I think its fair to say that most courses have been modified over the years with more bunkers/hazards, faster greens etc and this has evened out the advantages of getting the ball airborne easier. For some though, getting the ball in the air is a battle so it has indeed made it "easier" for them, scuffing a 3i or floating a 3h, regardless of direction, most guys who are uncomfortable with long irons would readily take the air route.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

According to golf digest the average handicap fell 2 shots from 1990 to 2013 from 16.3 to 14.3.

Suprised you didn't Google it Phil.


----------



## ruff-driver (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			According to golf digest the average handicap fell 2 shots from 1990 to 2013 from 16.3 to 14.3.

Suprised you didn't Google it Phil.
		
Click to expand...


Depends where you look , on here it's 18.4 av 

http://www.masterscoreboard.co.uk/SiteStats.php


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2015)

Our par 3s are 184; 183; 168 and 208yds (to middle).  All bar the 168yder are basically into the prevailing wind.  Since I started hitting 3i and 4i into these holes my GIR for the par 3s has shot up.  I was a 1-2 out of 4 player.  Now a 3 out of 4.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

ruff-driver said:



			Depends where you look , on here it's 18.4 av 

http://www.masterscoreboard.co.uk/SiteStats.php

Click to expand...

And what was it 30 years ago according to them.


----------



## Fish (Dec 22, 2015)

ruff-driver said:



			Depends where you look , on here it's 18.4 av 

http://www.masterscoreboard.co.uk/SiteStats.php

Click to expand...

That's only from figures and handicaps from clubs that use that specific software for their comps, as such it can be very distorted.


----------



## Craigg (Dec 22, 2015)

Don't despair Bob. I have 1-SW.......Now I just need to learn how to hit them!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Don't despair Bob. I have 1-SW.......Now I just need to learn how to hit them!
		
Click to expand...

As I'm having to reacquaint myself with my 3i and 4i I'm finding that I'm also striking 5i and 6i better.  I just got lazy wafting a hybrid at the ball and that laziness infected my iron play.


----------



## Craigg (Dec 22, 2015)

Yes, I agree. A really windy day the other week saw me taking all the woods out and putting a 2,3 and 4 iron in, as a fun experiment really. Used the two iron for teeing off. Not that long, but nice and low and more importantly, in play. not a lot of run out due to conditions, but I reckon I could squeeze 230yds out of that 2 iron with a good summer roll out.


----------



## Jates12 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Modern life is all about dumbing down rather than learning.
		
Click to expand...

So I take it that you only use clubs that are 100 years old? or are you classing yourself in that market while attempting to insult hybrid users?


----------



## One Planer (Dec 22, 2015)

Jates12 said:



			So I take it that you only use clubs that are 100 years old? or are you classing yourself in that market while attempting to insult hybrid users?
		
Click to expand...

See post #188 :thup:


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Jates12 said:



			So I take it that you only use clubs that are 100 years old? or are you classing yourself in that market while attempting to insult hybrid users?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't insulted anyone, if you have taken offence you need to grow a pair and not be so sensitive.

I do occasionally use old equipment but you cannot compete against modern equipment. It makes the game a lot easier you know.


----------



## tugglesf239 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I haven't insulted anyone, if you have taken offence you need to grow a pair and not be so sensitive.

I do occasionally use old equipment but you cannot compete against modern equipment. It makes the game a lot easier you know.
		
Click to expand...

You are correct then 

The game is marginally easier. 

So please answer the one question that you have not answered please. 


I'm not talking about the pro game. I am specifically asking about the amature game. 

Why is the game being slightly easier, such a bad thing?


----------



## Jates12 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I haven't insulted anyone, if you have taken offence you need to grow a pair and not be so sensitive.

I do occasionally use old equipment but you cannot compete against modern equipment. It makes the game a lot easier you know.
		
Click to expand...

Im not saying you have offended me at all, because im happy with using hybrids and happy with my game and couldnt really care less, if it makes the game easier it makes the game easier.

So the first point you made in this thread is why would people rather dumb it down than learn. Well people have learnt to hit hybrids, people have learnt to putt, people have learnt to drive. The equipment is there to help you but you still need to be able to swing the club to hit the ball.

But if you dont want to "Dumb things down" you could always go back to hickory shafts and play with non dimpled balls and prove to everyone how incredibly talented you are.

Edit: As previously stated though, what is so bad about making the game a little easier? It gets more people involved which means more people playing, more exposure for the sport and more funding towards clubs from the powers that be if its recognized as social growth. My cricket club recently got a government grant because cricket has become a lot bigger since the ashes success that has been had in the last 10 years and they are now offering that money out. If more people are playing golf it will be recognized and clubs may not be shutting as frequently.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2015)

Jates12 said:



			Im not saying you have offended me at all, because im happy with using hybrids and happy with my game and couldnt really care less, if it makes the game easier it makes the game easier.

So the first point you made in this thread is why would people rather dumb it down than learn. Well people have learnt to hit hybrids, people have learnt to putt, people have learnt to drive. The equipment is there to help you but you still need to be able to swing the club to hit the ball.

But if you dont want to "Dumb things down" you could always go back to hickory shafts and play with non dimpled balls and prove to everyone how incredibly talented you are.

Edit: As previously stated though, what is so bad about making the game a little easier? It gets more people involved which means more people playing, more exposure for the sport and more funding towards clubs from the powers that be if its recognized as social growth. *My cricket club recently got a government grant because cricket has become a lot bigger since the ashes success that has been had in the last 10 years and they are now offering that money out.* If more people are playing golf it will be recognized and clubs may not be shutting as frequently.
		
Click to expand...

But I bet they use modern pads to protect their legs instead of proper pads made of tissue paper that they used to wear in the good old days.  Yes another example of society dumbing down!


----------



## pokerjoke (Dec 22, 2015)

To be honest most sports have moved forward in the last 20 years making things slightly easier.

Even if technology has moved on its still a very difficult game and the new equipment still has to be mastered which in itself is not guaranteed.


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I haven't insulted anyone
		
Click to expand...

You've come pretty close a couple of times.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			You've come pretty close a couple of times.
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha

Who when and how.


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ha ha

Who when and how.
		
Click to expand...

The Vicar in the drawing room with a knife.


----------



## tugglesf239 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Ha ha

Who when and how.
		
Click to expand...

Can you answer my question?

Whats wrong with the game being marginally easier for amateurs?

Ta


----------



## brendy (Dec 22, 2015)

tugglesf239 said:



			Can you answer my question?

Whats wrong with the game being marginally easier for amateurs?

Ta
		
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with it as such but expect someone who can hit long irons to mention the fact once in a while, if you choose to feel inferior/superior/meh its up to you.
To me someone (amateurs) who can hit (actually use, not just carry for effect) long irons carries a little more kudos than someone whose bag is full of spoons, thats just me though.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Dec 22, 2015)

brendy said:



			Nothing wrong with it as such but expect someone who can hit long irons to mention the fact once in a while, if you choose to feel inferior/superior/meh its up to you.
To me someone (amateurs) who can hit (actually use, not just carry for effect) long irons carries a little more kudos than someone whose bag is full of spoons, thats just me though.
		
Click to expand...


Just as well no wimpy pro carries a hybrid then isn't it.


----------



## brendy (Dec 22, 2015)

Hence my amateur mention, pros do it for a living so they are going to use whatever tools the need to get food on the table and keep their card. As I said, take it how you will. I couldn't hit a 3i to save myself at one point, I learned. Just need to suss the rest of the game out again.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Dec 22, 2015)

brendy said:



			Hence my amateur mention, pros do it for a living so they are going to use whatever tools the need to get food on the table and keep their card. As I said, take it how you will. I couldn't hit a 3i to save myself at one point, I learned. Just need to suss the rest of the game out again.
		
Click to expand...


Whether you're an amateur or fully fledged pro, results is all that matters.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 22, 2015)

200 posts that have got nothing to do with the OP


----------



## brendy (Dec 22, 2015)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Whether you're an amateur or fully fledged pro, results is all that matters.
		
Click to expand...

To some that is correct, I am competitive but not as much as I used to be, I enjoy my golf more now than say 5 years ago, some of that enjoyment came with losing the frustration of the long game jitters.


----------



## pokerjoke (Dec 22, 2015)

The reason being the answer is yes or no and that is boring and too easy.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2015)

bobmac said:



			200 posts that have got nothing to do with the OP 

Click to expand...

In answer to the your first post

Things change - they move on , whether it's a good thing or bad thing will always be a personal choice in regards what the make up of their bag is - people will use whatever they find helps them play the game and enjoy it 

No doubt in 20 years things will no doubt move again.

But what I do see it a good number of people like the iron look in their longer clubs but like the playability of a hybrid so the driving iron is becoming more popular

Manufacturers still sell sets of 3-PW and expect they will always be on sale


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 22, 2015)

bobmac said:



			200 posts that have got nothing to do with the OP 

Click to expand...


For me in answer to the OP. I like to spend money on my hobby. When it was skiing I owned a few pairs, lots of boots, bindings and so on. Skateboarding, I had tons of them. Karting, the money spends its self, engines, rubber, fees. Now it's golf. Fun money.

That said I can hit any golf club, I don't change them to bridge a skill gap, I practice every day so the post was not really at me.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

tugglesf239 said:



			Can you answer my question?

Whats wrong with the game being marginally easier for amateurs?

Ta
		
Click to expand...

I honestly don't think it's marginally and I like that golf is difficult it makes it worth doing and putting the time in.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2015)

In response to the OP then, does it really matter what clubs are being sold in sets if people are enjoying themselves playing the game?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			In response to the OP then, does it really matter what clubs are being sold in sets if people are enjoying themselves playing the game?
		
Click to expand...

To me it does because they are not learning to play golf properly  for me a beginner should start with a half set so they learn to play half shots and full shots, vary the elevation etc none of this one club one shot scuttle it about nonsense.


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			To me it does because they are not learning to play golf properly  for me a beginner should start with a half set so they learn to play half shots and full shots, vary the elevation etc none of this one club one shot scuttle it about nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of bollocks.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			What a load of bollocks.
		
Click to expand...

Nice guy aren't you


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Nice guy aren't you
		
Click to expand...

Yes. But you talk nonsense. To suggest someone is not playing the game properly because they use certain clubs, or buy certain clubs is utter pish. Have you heard of GCW?


----------



## Fish (Dec 22, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			What a load of bollocks.
		
Click to expand...

&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

I couldn't say it, I'd be on vacation now otherwise &#128077;


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 22, 2015)

Fish said:



			&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

I couldn't say it, I'd be on vacation now otherwise &#128077;
		
Click to expand...

Same but I kinda feel like I need a vacation :mmm:


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2015)

The game has moved on and technology has made it easier. I don't think anyone would argue with that so why aren't we getting better. It still comes down to the idiot holding the club and still needs either a large chunk of natural talent (which I don't have) or they could benefit from tuition (not all decide they need this and I accept this). Some don't care about scores or chasing cuts and that fine also but if you're like me, I need all the benefits I can get from modern technology, have to work hard at my game and good scores and cuts are hard earned. To me that's what golf is about. No-one said it was ever meant to be easy and how you go about making good scores and dealing with the disappointments is what defines you (to a large degree) as a golfer


----------



## Three (Dec 22, 2015)

I don't really see any validity in criticism of someone else's equipment when it makes the game easier for them as long as the equipment is within the rules. 

We all get turned on by different things, for me it's the total number at the end of the round, for some it's being seen with a 2 &  3 iron. 

Each to their own, but what on earth is the point of worrying about what other guys choose to use?


----------



## ruff-driver (Dec 22, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Yes. But you talk nonsense. To suggest someone is not playing the game properly because they use certain clubs, or buy certain clubs is utter pish. *Have you heard of GCW*?
		
Click to expand...

:clap:


----------



## sev112 (Dec 22, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf, a set of irons were 3-SW
Nowadays, with people buying more hybrids and specialist wedges, is it likely manufacturers will end up selling just 4 irons in a set (6-9)?

I know people will buy whatever clubs makes golf easier and they haven't got time to practice so why bother.......just fill your bag full of hybrids and wedges and bingo, I'm your uncle.
		
Click to expand...

When I started playing a set was a wood, a spoon, a brassie, a niblick, and a putter.
Anyone using a such things as mass produced irons with numbers on are just trying to make the game artificially easy and have no place on a golf course


----------



## Robobum (Dec 22, 2015)

One player hits the absolute button on their hybrid 

The other player hits the absolute button on their 2iron

Is one better than the other?


----------



## Fish (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			To me it does because they are not learning to play golf properly  for me a beginner should start with a half set so they learn to play half shots and full shots, vary the elevation etc none of this one club one shot scuttle it about nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

OK, I'll answer this with a factual response, I started playing after I was 50, if I had to do what you suggest I wouldn't have carried on or thought to join a club, I'm pretty sure many like me would be the same, so where would that leave the game now, just think how many Cat 4's there are in your club and imagine how many wouldn't want to do what youve suggested then think about that number across the country, your talking like some kind of purest, not everyone wants that, some are happy to hack it around and just enjoy it for what it is, a pastime and game.


----------



## sev112 (Dec 22, 2015)

sev112 said:



			When I started playing a set was a wood, a spoon, a brassie, a niblick, and a putter.
Anyone using a such things as mass produced irons with numbers on are just trying to make the game artificially easy and have no place on a golf course
		
Click to expand...

In fact my Dutch grandfather bemoans my modern approach while we play a 2 ball,while he uses his hockey stick and illegal shove ha'penny push putter


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			To me it does because they are not learning to play golf properly  for me a beginner should start with a half set so they learn to play half shots and full shots, vary the elevation etc none of this one club one shot scuttle it about nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

That's just insulting people 

The aim of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as less amount of shots as possible within the rules of golf

What clubs are used and how they are used is up to the player 

If you are playing the game within the rules you are playing it properly


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Yes. But you talk nonsense. To suggest someone is not playing the game properly because they use certain clubs, or buy certain clubs is utter pish. Have you heard of GCW?
		
Click to expand...


For me if you want to do something properly and want to be really good at something. you learn how to do it properly, why do you think golfers like Seve Rory and tiger were so good, they learned the art of shot making when they were young

It is my opinion I would be grateful if you respected it just like I respect the tripe you come out with.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's just insulting people 

The aim of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as less amount of shots as possible within the rules of golf

What clubs are used and how they are used is up to the player 

If you are playing the game within the rules you are playing it properly
		
Click to expand...

If you are insulted by that I will write you an apology card, you can keep it in your purse.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			For me if you want to do something properly and want to be really good at something. you learn how to do it properly, why do you think golfers like Seve Rory and tiger were so good, they learned the art of shot making when they were young

It is my opinion I would be grateful if you respected it just like I respect the tripe you come out with.
		
Click to expand...

I started with a half set thank you. Got down to decent single figures as a teenager having progressed to bladed irons (full set). Left the game for a number of years and came back and had to work hard to get back to wear I am now. Should I have to go back to half sets?


----------



## upsidedown (Dec 22, 2015)

Common theme here seems to be clubs are now easier to hit and play with but handicaps haven't dropped significantly so were the players of old better golfers ?

Having played with Hickory clubs up in Scotland I'd say yes for sure, modern equipment is far easier but if we were still restricted to just Hickory it wouldn't put me off the game , it'd be a challenge to master and guess my handicap would be higher .

As for OP , no think they will still sell in 4 to PW


----------



## bobmac (Dec 22, 2015)

This is getting stupid and still nowhere near the OP.
Can a MOD close this please before the sniping gets any worse


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 22, 2015)

upsidedown said:



			Common theme here seems to be clubs are now easier to hit and play with but handicaps haven't dropped significantly so were the players of old better golfers ?

Having played with Hickory clubs up in Scotland I'd say yes for sure, modern equipment is far easier but if we were still restricted to just Hickory it wouldn't put me off the game , it'd be a challenge to master and guess my handicap would be higher .

As for OP , no think they will still sell in 4 to PW
		
Click to expand...

Is it not the case that as technology has come into the game (largely the ball) the courses have become longer? Net gain to the players handicaps being little to non?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I started with a half set thank you. Got down to decent single figures as a teenager having progressed to bladed irons (full set). Left the game for a number of years and came back and had to work hard to get back to wear I am now. Should I have to go back to half sets?
		
Click to expand...

That's totally up to you, I have given my opinion and for so reason people don't like it.

Reading through the posts I think we just have different opinions on how the game is to be played and what we are trying to achieve.

For me there are no short cuts if you want to be good at something.


----------



## sev112 (Dec 22, 2015)

upsidedown said:



			Common theme here seems to be clubs are now easier to hit and play with but handicaps haven't dropped significantly so were the players of old better golfers ?

Having played with Hickory clubs up in Scotland I'd say yes for sure, modern equipment is far easier but if we were still restricted to just Hickory it wouldn't put me off the game , it'd be a challenge to master and guess my handicap would be higher .

As for OP , no think they will still sell in 4 to PW
		
Click to expand...

Average handicaps don't reduce because there is alwAys a stream if new people coming into the game at 28, and high number always skew averages, so the average never drops


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			That's totally up to you, I have given my opinion and for so reason people don't like
		
Click to expand...

I think the reason is because it comes over (I am aware it's just your opinion) as very judgemental and people do not like to feel judged even though we all do it. 

Question. Your playing a match, your giving 5 or 6 shots to your opponent and he has a bag full of hybrids and loads of wedges. On his approach shots he lasers the pin, picks a club and plays a full shot. At the end of the round he or she beats you.

Do you tell yourself that you gave shots away and you used blades so really you won? Perhaps do you even tell your competitor that?


----------



## pokerjoke (Dec 22, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf, a set of irons were 3-SW
Nowadays, with people buying more hybrids and specialist wedges, is it likely manufacturers will end up selling just 4 irons in a set (6-9)?

I know people will buy whatever clubs makes golf easier and they haven't got time to practice so why bother.......just fill your bag full of hybrids and wedges and bingo, I'm your uncle.
		
Click to expand...


No manufacturers will never sell 4 clubs as a set.
Why didn't you just set up a poll that would have give you your answer.
As i'm sure your fully aware as your a forum stalwart 99% of threads end up as arguments with snipes in them.


----------



## upsidedown (Dec 22, 2015)

sev112 said:



			Average handicaps don't reduce because there is alwAys a stream if new people coming into the game at 28, and high number always skew averages, so the average never drops
		
Click to expand...

OK taking handicaps out of it, were the players from 30 years ago more skillful ? Seeing how some 70+ age wise players play the game I'd say yes. The way they can get score without being long off the tee is very commendable with very hot short games.



Alex1975 said:



			Is it not the case that as technology has come into the game (largely the ball) the courses have become longer? Net gain to the players handicaps being little to non?
		
Click to expand...

Don't know , is your home course 400+ yards longer? No idea for mine as only been there 3 years and been playing 16. I'd hazard a gues that most of members here are playing on courses that haven't been lengthened by much because when I play away the fairway bunkers seem to be not so intimidating as i can carry them , well some of them


----------



## wrighty1874 (Dec 22, 2015)

No, manufacturers won't sell just 4 irons in a set . I've been playing off and on since 1969 when I was 10 and if the manufacturers thought it was viable to sell just four irons, they would have done so by now.


----------



## Jimaroid (Dec 22, 2015)

Clubs have always evolved with golf. There were no rules about the makeup of clubs prior to the 20th Century and the 14 club limit was introduced "only" about the 1930's because of some argy bargy about the time hickory started dying out. 

Embrace the evolution, it's part of the game and always has been.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			To me it does because they are not learning to play golf properly  for me a beginner should start with a half set so they learn to play half shots and full shots, vary the elevation etc none of this one club one shot scuttle it about nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

What I meant is they are not learning properly not learning the right things rather than not playing properly.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2015)

wrighty1874 said:



			No, manufacturers won't sell just 4 irons in a set . I've been playing off and on since 1969 when I was 10 and if the manufacturers thought it was viable to sell just four irons, they would have done so by now.
		
Click to expand...

Plenty of manufacturers sell clubs individually so in theory nothing to stop you purchasing just a half set


----------



## ruff-driver (Dec 22, 2015)

The cobra baffler xl were technically only 7-pw


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			What I meant is they are not learning properly not learning the right things rather than not playing properly.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't listen to the latest GM podcast then as Mike H goes on about how much he likes his Adams hybrids. The lazy cheating so and so....


----------



## freddielong (Dec 22, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I wouldn't listen to the latest GM podcast then as Mike H goes on about how much he likes his Adams hybrids. The lazy cheating so and so....
		
Click to expand...

He is paid to say that


----------



## tugglesf239 (Dec 22, 2015)

freddielong said:



			He is paid to say that
		
Click to expand...

Controversial


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 23, 2015)

Hey Freddie. Have you ever attended a forum meet?
Serious question.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Hey Freddie. Have you ever attended a forum meet?
Serious question.
		
Click to expand...

No I would like to but I live in the Isle of man so it just makes it difficult


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 23, 2015)

freddielong said:



			No I would like to but I live in the Isle of man so it just makes it difficult
		
Click to expand...

Oh right.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2015)

freddielong said:



			What I meant is they are not learning properly not learning the right things rather than not playing properly.
		
Click to expand...

What are the *right* things to learn ? And indeed what makes them *right* and indeed properly


----------



## chrisd (Dec 23, 2015)

Almost every popular sport evolves over time. Football is easier than it was, the ball is not leather with a lace, boots are like slippers, pitches are not mud heaps  like they were back in the late 50's when I started out - so you could argue it's easier, but, the players are faster, more skilful as a result. 

It's a better game for evolution as is golf. Back at the start of the 1990's I couldn't even play golf as there weren't any clubs who didn't have a long waiting list and there was no chance of getting in as a member. I can hit a 3 iron as I'm sure Smiffy will testify, but the same swing with a hybrid will give more consistent results, so I will carry two of them and make the game more enjoyable - why not go back to hickory and blades and see how many golf clubs survive ?


----------



## Smiffy (Dec 23, 2015)

chrisd said:



			I can hit a 3 iron as I'm sure Smiffy will testify
		
Click to expand...

Don't rope me into it mate.
I was visiting my sister in law in Wales.
I've got witnesses.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 23, 2015)

freddielong said:



			He is paid to say that
		
Click to expand...

Of course he's not paid to say he likes hybrids. Yes he is paid to have an interest in golf, but he could just have easily have said he can't get on with them and prefers long irons as some do. You seemed to have tipped over into blinkered paranoia now.


----------



## Fish (Dec 23, 2015)

chrisd said:



			I can hit a 3 iron
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, there great for chipping low balls out of the trees, aren't they &#128521;&#128514;


----------



## chrisd (Dec 23, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Don't rope me into it mate.
I was visiting my sister in law in Wales.
I've got witnesses.



Click to expand...

"The witness for the defence can stand down now"



Fish said:



			Yeah, there great for chipping low balls out of the trees, aren't they &#128521;&#128514;
		
Click to expand...

I'll take your word for that Robin!


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 23, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			I think the reason is because it comes over (I am aware it's just your opinion) as very judgemental and people do not like to feel judged even though we all do it. 

Question. Your playing a match, your giving 5 or 6 shots to your opponent and he has a bag full of hybrids and loads of wedges. On his approach shots he lasers the pin, picks a club and plays a full shot. At the end of the round he or she beats you.

Do you tell yourself that you gave shots away and you used blades so really you won? Perhaps do you even tell your competitor that?
		
Click to expand...


Freddie, did you miss this question or chose not to answer it?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Freddie, did you miss this question or chose not to answer it?
		
Click to expand...

Its a tough one as i hate losing in matchplay full stop and if i lose i tend to blame myself, so no I don't think I would.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Of course he's not paid to say he likes hybrids. Yes he is paid to have an interest in golf, but he could just have easily have said he can't get on with them and prefers long irons as some do. You seemed to have tipped over into blinkered paranoia now.
		
Click to expand...

My gosh people are touchy on here, it was a joke Mike is entitled to his own opinion just as much as I am.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What are the *right* things to learn ? And indeed what makes them *right* and indeed properly
		
Click to expand...

I started playing as a junior so when I say beginner I am talking about youngsters I have no experience of coming into the game late.

And for me my opinion is once you can hit a golf ball you should learn how to play different shots, knock down shots, half shots , little cuts to take some yards off or to hold the wind, hooks, fades, low ones high ones, so that you can get it around in all conditions. 
My 8 year old son has a half set of irons and he is coming on well.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I started playing as a junior so when I say beginner I am talking about youngsters I have no experience of coming into the game late.

And for me my opinion is once you can hit a golf ball you should learn how to play different shots, knock down shots, half shots , little cuts to take some yards off or to hold the wind, hooks, fades, low ones high ones, so that you can get it around in all conditions. 
My 8 year old son has a half set of irons and he is coming on well.
		
Click to expand...

But what makes that "right" and "proper" ?

Don't most people do that as they play the game anyway ?


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But what makes that "right" and "proper" ?

Don't most people do that as they play the game anyway ?
		
Click to expand...

Just my opinion because you learn to manipulate the ball which should give you a greater understanding of the game and ultimately make you a better golfer.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2015)

freddielong said:



			Just my opinion because you learn to manipulate the ball which should give you a greater understanding of the game and ultimately make you a better golfer.
		
Click to expand...

But surely they only measure to show a better golfer is the scores the make and the HC they get too 

As opposed to how 

If I go round the course in the same score as someone else but using hybrids and lots of wedges - neither is the "better" golfer. It's just doing something different. 

The issue I have with a lot of what has been said is there appears to be an underlining arrogance or snobbery towards people that haven't learnt the game of golf the way you believe they should to make them "better" golfers 

It's golf - the aim of the game hasn't changed


----------



## One Planer (Dec 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But surely they only measure to show a better golfer is the scores the make and the HC they get too 

As opposed to how 

*If I go round the course in the same score as someone else but using hybrids and lots of wedges - neither is the "better" golfer. It's just doing something different. 

The issue I have with a lot of what has been said is there appears to be an underlining arrogance or snobbery towards people that haven't learnt the game of golf the way you believe they should to make them "better" golfers 
*
It's golf - the aim of the game hasn't changed
		
Click to expand...

If that's the case, you've missed Bobs point IMO.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2015)

One Planer said:



			If that's the case, you've missed Bobs point IMO.
		
Click to expand...

I was replying to what Freddie said 

And I understand Bobs point even if I don't fully agree with it


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But surely they only measure to show a better golfer is the scores the make and the HC they get too 

As opposed to how 

If I go round the course in the same score as someone else but using hybrids and lots of wedges - neither is the "better" golfer. It's just doing something different. 

The issue I have with a lot of what has been said is there appears to be an underlining arrogance or snobbery towards people that haven't learnt the game of golf the way you believe they should to make them "better" golfers 

It's golf - the aim of the game hasn't changed
		
Click to expand...

That is fine that is your opinion.


----------



## One Planer (Dec 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I was replying to what Freddie said 

And I understand Bobs point even if I don't fully agree with it
		
Click to expand...

There's nothing snobby, arrogant or elitist about what Freddie has said.

What Freddie has said throughout the thread echo's Bobs OP.

People today often (... Not always) look for a solution to an issue they have in hardware as opposed to learning to hit a particular club or shot.

Can't putt, change the putter etc.

Can't hit a long iron, play a hybrid.

Can't hit a driver, buy a mini driver.

You can learn a lot more than just what you're looking for. 

For example I used to fade the ball, but wanted to learn to hit a draw. Before I could draw the ball I hit big hooks. Now, I know how to hit a hook or bigger draw, based on what I initially learned when simply  looking for a draw shape.

That can be very useful on the course.


----------



## Jates12 (Dec 23, 2015)

brendy said:



			Hence my amateur mention, pros do it for a living so they are going to use whatever tools the need to get food on the table and keep their card. As I said, take it how you will. I couldn't hit a 3i to save myself at one point, I learned. Just need to suss the rest of the game out again.
		
Click to expand...

In my opinion you have just muted your own argument. Pro's use hybrids to do the best they can. So why is everyone against amateurs using them to do the best they can :/


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2015)

One Planer said:



			There's nothing snobby, arrogant or elitist about what Freddie has said.

What Freddie has said throughout the thread echo's Bobs OP.

People today often (... Not always) look for a solution to an issue they have in hardware as opposed to learning to hit a particular club or shot.

Can't putt, change the putter etc.

Can't hit a long iron, play a hybrid.

Can't hit a driver, buy a mini driver.

You can learn a lot more than just what you're looking for. 

For example I used to fade the ball, but wanted to learn to hit a draw. Before I could draw the ball I hit big hooks. Now, I know how to hit a hook or bigger draw, based on what I initially learned when simply  looking for a draw shape.

That can be very useful on the course.
		
Click to expand...

Someone suggest that someone who uses a hybrid is dumbing down , someone who uses a 3 iron is a better golfer , someone who used a half set to learn and then learn different shots is a better golfer 

It's a underlying theme throughout in my opinion


----------



## Jates12 (Dec 23, 2015)

freddielong said:



			For me if you want to do something properly and want to be really good at something. you learn how to do it properly, why do you think golfers like Seve Rory and tiger were so good, they learned the art of shot making when they were young

It is my opinion I would be grateful if you respected it just like I respect the tripe you come out with.
		
Click to expand...

Playing the game properly. :rofl: Ive never heard anyone chat so much **** in all of my life.


----------



## One Planer (Dec 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone suggest that someone who uses a hybrid is dumbing down , someone who uses a 3 iron is a better golfer , someone who used a half set to learn and then learn different shots is a better golfer 

It's a underlying theme throughout in my opinion
		
Click to expand...

I an hit both a 3 iron and a hybrid. Look out for me on tour soon :rofl:

In all honestly, I don't think anyone on this thread has said if you can't hit a long iron you're a lesser golfer than someone who can.

If you can point me to a post that say's differently, I'd appreciate it.

As regards to dumbing down, I personally took it as a metaphor highlighting how technology has changed to make things easier for the golfer to play better.

Not make the game easier, just give the player the opportunity to play better.

My 19Â° hybrid is massively easier to hit than any 2 iron I've ever tried, however, I would still put the effort into learning to play a 2 iron correctly should the need ever arise.


----------



## Slab (Dec 23, 2015)

Given that the vast majority of manufactures donâ€™t include a 3I in their sets, what happens if we all learn to hit a 3I ? 

And:
Why learn to hit a club that doesnâ€™t exist in the popular market?
Where do we get a 3I to learn to hit?
Once we buy a club that doesnâ€™t exist & learn to hit it, what happens when we change our clubs

Sure itâ€™s a nice skill to have but like baking your own bread or tying a bow-tie, itâ€™s a pretty redundant/obsolete skill and thereâ€™s no sign that itâ€™ll come back into fashion anytime soon


----------



## Slab (Dec 23, 2015)

I typed this and removed it before the previous post but I'm going to ask:

Isn't the plethora of modern training aids dumbing down the skill of learning to putt/drive/chip? 

Or is it just an alternative means to an end, a little bit like a hybrid V's a 3I & neither is wrong


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			I typed this and removed it before the previous post but I'm going to ask:

Isn't the plethora of modern training aids dumbing down the skill of learning to putt/drive/chip? 

Or is it just an alternative means to an end, a little bit like a hybrid V's a 3I & neither is wrong
		
Click to expand...

I don't know what training aids your referring to but a training aid by nature helps you learn something rather than find an alternate way to do it.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 23, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I don't know what training aids your referring to but a training aid by nature helps you learn something rather than find an* alternate *way to do it.
		
Click to expand...

I think alternate is the important word there.  That's all these clubs are, alternate ways of getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes.  Not better or worse, not proper or cheating, just alternate.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			Given that the vast majority of manufactures donâ€™t include a 3I in their sets, what happens if we all learn to hit a 3I ? 

And:
Why learn to hit a club that doesnâ€™t exist in the popular market?
Where do we get a 3I to learn to hit?
Once we buy a club that doesnâ€™t exist & learn to hit it, what happens when we change our clubs

Sure itâ€™s a nice skill to have but like baking your own bread or tying a bow-tie, itâ€™s a pretty redundant/obsolete skill and thereâ€™s no sign that itâ€™ll come back into fashion anytime soon
		
Click to expand...

You obviously have not tasted my home made stone baked ciabatta then..


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 23, 2015)

bobmac said:



			When I started playing golf, a set of irons were 3-SW
Nowadays, with people buying more hybrids and specialist wedges, is it likely manufacturers will end up selling just 4 irons in a set (6-9)?

I know people will buy whatever clubs makes golf easier and they haven't got time to practice so why bother.......just fill your bag full of hybrids and wedges and bingo, I'm your uncle.
		
Click to expand...

So actually golf equipment is well on the way to a complete return to the old days before full sets - when players found a specific spoon, brassie, driving iron, baffie, niblik etc that suited them for the various facets of game.

In fact it could be that a player finds that all he needs for his best game is a putter, a couple of wedges; a 9i and a 7i; a couple of hybrids and a driver (maybe with 2wood loft).   Eight clubs - possibly all different manufacturers


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 23, 2015)

One Planer said:



			There's nothing snobby, arrogant or elitist about what Freddie has said.

What Freddie has said throughout the thread echo's Bobs OP.

People today often (... Not always) look for a solution to an issue they have in hardware as opposed to learning to hit a particular club or shot.

Can't putt, change the putter etc.

Can't hit a long iron, play a hybrid.

Can't hit a driver, buy a mini driver.

You can learn a lot more than just what you're looking for. 

For example I used to fade the ball, but wanted to learn to hit a draw. Before I could draw the ball I hit big hooks. Now, I know how to hit a hook or bigger draw, based on what I initially learned when simply  looking for a draw shape.

That can be very useful on the course.
		
Click to expand...


I disagree, Freddie and Bob are not talking about the same thing *at all*!! Bob is saying dont try and buy a game, if you cant hit X club (the story started with a 5 iron) then learn. Freddies point is "your not doing things right if your not using blades, starting with a half set" and so on. Freddie has been very clear that he does not respect people who use technology. It could be said that's snobby, arrogant or elitist!!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			I disagree, Freddie and Bob are not talking about the same thing *at all*!! Bob is saying dont try and buy a game, if you cant hit X club (the story started with a 5 iron) then learn. Freddies point is "your not doing things right if your not using blades, starting with a half set" and so on. Freddie has been very clear that he does not respect people who use technology. It could be said that's snobby, arrogant or elitist!!
		
Click to expand...

That's the way I have read it also throughout the thread


----------



## One Planer (Dec 23, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			I disagree, Freddie and Bob are not talking about the same thing *at all*!! Bob is saying dont try and buy a game, if you cant hit X club (the story started with a 5 iron) then learn. Freddies point is "your not doing things right if your not using blades, starting with a half set" and so on. Freddie has been very clear that he does not respect people who use technology. It could be said that's snobby, arrogant or elitist!!
		
Click to expand...

The overriding point in both (Bob and Freddie's) argument is that is better to learn a skill as opposed to not learning.

That's the point I'm making.

It doesn't matter whether a player wants to learn to hit a hybrid, driver or even a 5 iron as in the OP, the skill still has to be acquired.

We all know you can't buy a swing or golfing ability, but that doesn't stop people changing a putter/driver/wedge frequently in an attempt to find something 'better'.


----------



## freddielong (Dec 23, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			I disagree, Freddie and Bob are not talking about the same thing *at all*!! Bob is saying dont try and buy a game, if you cant hit X club (the story started with a 5 iron) then learn. Freddies point is "your not doing things right if your not using blades, starting with a half set" and so on. Freddie has been very clear that he does not respect people who use technology. It could be said that's snobby, arrogant or elitist!!
		
Click to expand...

Ok I don't recall saying I don't respect anyone let alone making it very clear that I don't respect anyone.

I just happen to think you need to learn the fundamentals to maximise your own potential.


----------



## Tiger man (Dec 23, 2015)

This thread just keeps on giving:rofl:


----------



## Jates12 (Dec 23, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			I disagree, Freddie and Bob are not talking about the same thing *at all*!! Bob is saying dont try and buy a game, if you cant hit X club (the story started with a 5 iron) then learn. Freddies point is "your not doing things right if your not using blades, starting with a half set" and so on. Freddie has been very clear that he does not respect people who use technology. It could be said that's snobby, arrogant or elitist!!
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			That's the way I have read it also throughout the thread
		
Click to expand...

This is also how i have perceived what Freddie has been saying, simply because that's what he has been saying.


----------



## bobmac (Dec 23, 2015)

If you cant putt do you keep buying more putters OR DO YOU LEARN TO PUTT.
If you cant hit your wedges, do you keep buying more wedges OR DO YOU LEARN HOW TO HIT THEM
If you cant hit a driver straight, do you keep buying more drivers OR DO YOU LEARN HOW TO HIT IT STRAIGHT.

I have no problem whatsoever with people buying the latest kit to enhance the skills they already have.
I do have a problem with people trying to buy more equipment because they have no skills and cant hit the perfectly good set they already have whether it's blades, Super GI irons or a bag full of hybrids, I dont give a monkeys.

THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

Golf is a game made up of many skills. 
If you want to be any good, you have to learn these skills.
Buying more kit wont buy you a skill

There's nothing elitist, arrogant or insulting about that.

If you want to discuss anything else, please start your own thread.

Rant over.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 23, 2015)

bobmac said:



			If you cant putt do you keep buying more putters OR DO YOU LEARN TO PUTT.
If you cant hit your wedges, do you keep buying more wedges OR DO YOU LEARN HOW TO HIT THEM
If you cant hit a driver straight, do you keep buying more drivers OR DO YOU LEARN HOW TO HIT IT STRAIGHT.

I have no problem whatsoever with people buying the latest kit to enhance the skills they already have.
I do have a problem with people trying to buy more equipment because they have no skills and cant hit the perfectly good set they already have whether it's blades, Super GI irons or a bag full of hybrids, I dont give a monkeys.

THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

Golf is a game made up of many skills. 
If you want to be any good, you have to learn these skills.
Buying more kit wont buy you a skill

There's nothing elitist, arrogant or insulting about that.

If you want to discuss anything else, please start your own thread.

Rant over.
		
Click to expand...


Bob, i think EVERYONE that has taken part in this thread is very very clear what you were saying. Many of us have covered the point. If the thread had not moved on it would have been one that would have had 15 replies and been long gone by now. In my opinion you were talking to about 5 people because not many people do what your talking about on this forum. Most people who are buying new kit are doing it for other reason, that have been covered.

Why do you care that this has moved onto another conversation? Why is it bothering you?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Dec 23, 2015)

bobmac said:



			If you cant putt do you keep buying more putters OR DO YOU LEARN TO PUTT.
If you cant hit your wedges, do you keep buying more wedges OR DO YOU LEARN HOW TO HIT THEM
If you cant hit a driver straight, do you keep buying more drivers OR DO YOU LEARN HOW TO HIT IT STRAIGHT.

I have no problem whatsoever with people buying the latest kit to enhance the skills they already have.
I do have a problem with people trying to buy more equipment because they have no skills and cant hit the perfectly good set they already have whether it's blades, Super GI irons or a bag full of hybrids, I dont give a monkeys.

THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

Golf is a game made up of many skills. 
If you want to be any good, you have to learn these skills.
Buying more kit wont buy you a skill

There's nothing elitist, arrogant or insulting about that.

If you want to discuss anything else, please start your own thread.

Rant over.
		
Click to expand...


So really you should be discourageing GM from taking monies for advertising of these new modern clubs that "do allow you to hit the ball better, easier, longer and with more forgiveness". No...I thought not.
In any case,  a modern 3 iron will probably be equal to an old 2 or even 1 iron going on lofts. How is modern lofts "playing the game as it should be played?"


----------



## bobmac (Dec 24, 2015)

Bunkermagnet said:



			In any case,*  a modern 3 iron* will probably be equal to an old 2 or even 1 iron going on lofts.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you look at the Titleist range of AP2, CB and MB ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Also look at the Ping I and S ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees and some of the G ranges are 20 degrees

Also the Mizuno MP range all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Not forgetting the TM MB range all 3 irons 21 degrees 



Bunkermagnet said:



			How is modern lofts "playing the game as it  should be played?"
		
Click to expand...

When did I say anything about playing golf as it should be played?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2015)

I really like the idea of us rejecting full sets and going back to the days of choosing individual clubs we want and like - and get on with - from as many different manufacturers as we care.  And almost certainly we'll end up with fewer clubs in our bags (why would we spend money on clubs we don't need) and learn to play them better as we'd be playing them more frequently.  Too often beginners will have a full set and not know what to do with them; which club to use and when; getting tied up with range finders etc and getting confused.  Simplify the game by just playing with clubs you like and have learned to use.  And so a beginner might not have any iron stronger than a 6i or 7i! His distance clubs being a couple of hybrids and then a couple of woods.


----------



## Slab (Dec 24, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I really like the idea of us rejecting full sets and going back to the days of choosing individual clubs we want and like - and get on with - from as many different manufacturers as we care.  And almost certainly we'll end up with fewer clubs in our bags (why would we spend money on clubs we don't need) and learn to play them better as we'd be playing them more frequently.  Too often beginners will have a full set and not know what to do with them; which club to use and when; getting tied up with range finders etc and getting confused.  Simplify the game by just playing with clubs you like and have learned to use.  And so a beginner might not have any iron stronger than a 6i or 7i! His distance clubs being a couple of hybrids and then a couple of woods.
		
Click to expand...

That all sounds really good on paper & even quite good fun, but how am I ever going to play the game properly if I don't learn how to draw a 3I under the wind (lets forget for a moment that the popular mass market doesn't sell a 3I in their sets anymore)

It'll be pandemonium on the course with folk enjoying themselves, having fun & playing any club they choose and taking the game far too lightly!


----------



## bobmac (Dec 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			Given that the vast majority of manufactures donâ€™t include a 3I in their sets,
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you look at the Titleist range of AP2, CB and MB ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Also look at the Ping I and S ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees and some of the G ranges are 20 degrees

Also the Mizuno MP range all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Not forgetting the TM MB range all 3 irons 21 degrees


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 24, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I suggest you look at the Titleist range of AP2, CB and MB ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Also look at the Ping I and S ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees and some of the G ranges are 20 degrees

Also the Mizuno MP range all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Not forgetting the TM MB range all 3 irons 21 degrees
		
Click to expand...

Is there an echo? The vast majority of sets don't include a 3i


----------



## Slab (Dec 24, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I suggest you look at the Titleist range of AP2, CB and MB ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Also look at the Ping I and S ranges  all 3 irons 21 degrees and some of the G ranges are 20 degrees

Also the Mizuno MP range all 3 irons 21 degrees 

Not forgetting the TM MB range all 3 irons 21 degrees
		
Click to expand...

Just used American golf as a barometer for the popular mass market, near 80 sets of irons for sale today, none include a 3 iron. It suggests this club is fast becoming a relic and inevitably 3 iron users will follow

I'd suggest anyone who has one hold onto it to show the grandkids, I might give mine to the local club to hang on the wall behind the bar


----------



## One Planer (Dec 24, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Is there an echo? The vast majority of sets don't include a 3i
		
Click to expand...

As an iron set, they are available.

They're just not overly carried by retailers. 

I wonder why that could be


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 24, 2015)

One Planer said:



			I wonder why that could be 

Click to expand...


Your a trouble maker!!


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 24, 2015)

One Planer said:



			As an iron set, they are available.

They're just not overly carried by retailers. 

I wonder why that could be 

Click to expand...

Yes, but the VAST majority do not come with a 3i in the stock set. Oh, and it's because hybrids are easier to hit.


----------



## Alex1975 (Dec 24, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Yes, but the VAST majority do not come with a 3i in the stock set. Oh, and it's because hybrids are easier to hit. 

Click to expand...

They are not easier they just launch higher and land softer.... :ears:


----------



## bobmac (Dec 24, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Is there an echo? The vast majority of sets don't include a 3i
		
Click to expand...

I was replying to Slab who wrote




			Given that the vast majority of *manufactures* donâ€™t include a 3I in their sets
		
Click to expand...

I just listed 4 fairly well known manufacturers that do and I'm sure there are more.

Setting that aside, when did I mention anything about a 3 iron?


----------



## One Planer (Dec 24, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Yes, but the VAST majority do not come with a 3i in the stock set. Oh, and it's because hybrids are easier to hit. 

Click to expand...

Stock set? 

If you CHOOSE not to order a 3/4/5 iron as part of an iron set that is down to personal choice. 

To say they are not available is not true. Below is a selection of iron spec's from Taylormade (TP CB), Mizuno (MP15) and Titleist.



















They ARE available, so why do retailers not offer them?

Is it because hybrids are easier to hit?

Or the fact the can make another sale at around Â£100 for a hybrid


----------



## tsped83 (Dec 24, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Stock set? 

If you CHOOSE not to order a 3/4/5 iron as part of an iron set that is down to personal choice. 

To say they are not available is not true. Below is a selection of iron spec's from Taylormade (TP CB), Mizuno (MP15) and Titleist.



















They ARE available, so why do retailers not offer them?

Is it because hybrids are easier to hit?

Or the fact the can make another sale at around Â£100 for a hybrid 

Click to expand...

Because hybrids are easier to hit


----------



## One Planer (Dec 24, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Because hybrids are easier to hit
		
Click to expand...

You're not in retail are you :rofl:


----------



## Slab (Dec 24, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Stock set? 

If you CHOOSE not to order a 3/4/5 iron as part of an iron set that is down to personal choice. 

To say they are not available is not true. Below is a selection of iron spec's from Taylormade (TP CB), Mizuno (MP15) and Titleist.



















They ARE available, so why do retailers not offer them?

Is it because hybrids are easier to hit?

Or the fact the can make another sale at around Â£100 for a hybrid 

Click to expand...

AG = 77 iron sets on sale today, none with 3Iron (including several makes/models that Bob thinks do come with one) So what if you can place a special order for one, that's not what the vast majority of golfers will do

Remember too that players didn't invent the hybrid and stick 2 fingers up at the manufactures. Its the golf club manufactures that's responsible for the clubs we can currently choose from & play, not the players or the retailers


----------



## One Planer (Dec 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			AG = 77 iron sets on sale today, none with 3Iron (including several makes/models that Bob thinks do come with one) So what if you can place a special order for one, that's not what the vast majority of golfers will do

Remember too that players didn't invent the hybrid and stick 2 fingers up at the manufactures. Its the golf industry that's responsible for the clubs we can currently choose from & play, not the players or the retailers
		
Click to expand...


Just because AG don't offer it as part of a 'shop set' does not mean that the clubs (3/4/5 irons) are not available. 

The 3 pictures highlighted above evidence that with Titleist offering a 3 iron in all iron sets and even a 2 iron in two of them!

OK, so AG don't offer the 3 iron despite them being available, however they will sell you a hybrid to bridge the gap. 

Convenient that :thup:


----------



## bobmac (Dec 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			AG = 77 iron sets on sale today, none with 3Iron (including several makes/models that Bob thinks do come with one)
		
Click to expand...

They may not advertise the 3 iron as part of the set because they want to sell you a hybrid instead (more profit) but they are all available in the sets I mentioned if you want them.
Why do they not advertise the 3 iron?
1. People dont want them any more.
2. A 3 hybrid is easier to hit (see post 69)
3. A Ping 3 iron will cost you an extra Â£60-65. A 3 hybrid will cost you Â£100-150

No brainer for AG


----------



## patricks148 (Dec 24, 2015)

when i switched to the Mizuno JPX825 pro there was not a 3 iron available with the set, though the prev model the 800 did have a 3 iron.


----------



## bluewolf (Dec 24, 2015)

Lovin this thread.. Perfectly encapsulates why some people should have their internet access restricted (myself included probably)..

But, what I do know is that a well hit 3 iron to the green feels far better than a well hit hybrid.. That said, I use the hybrid because I get that feeling far too sparingly these days...


----------



## ScienceBoy (Dec 24, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I really like the idea of us rejecting full sets and going back to the days of choosing individual clubs we want and like And almost certainly we'll end up with fewer clubs in our bags (why would we spend money on clubs we don't need) and learn to play them better as we'd be playing them more frequently.  Too often beginners will have a full set and not know what to do with them; which club to use and when; getting tied up with range finders etc and getting confused.  Simplify the game by just playing with clubs you like and have learned
		
Click to expand...

My advice to a guy who just started the game was to pick a club and just hit that. It was round a par 3 course and he had a full set. He then just hit an 8 iron, chipped and pitched with the PW and putted with putter. His scored tumbled and he had a hole in one after just 3 months of playing.

Also a lot of players would be better off with 7 woods and maybe even 9 woods instead of low lofted hybrids. Then hybrids and finally 6-9 irons.

Why make the game harder when a majority of people have their number 1 goal being scoring better and having a lower handicap?


----------



## shewy (Dec 24, 2015)

A lot of sets don't have 3 irons and 4 irons due to strong lofts, my 4 iron would be 20 degrees, my 5 is 23 degrees, an old 3/4 iron.
I had the 4 iron from my set but went the same distance as my 5 so moved it on, easy enough to hit though, the hybrid is more versatile from different lies though.


----------

