# Golf clubs low on membership



## Dave1980 (Jan 10, 2019)

With a lot of clubs reporting dips in membership or having capacity to allow more members, are you clubs doing anything to attract new members? 

If not what do you think they should be doing?


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## robinthehood (Jan 10, 2019)

oof...now you've started it.. I found the whole process of looking for a new club quite depressing, club websites telling me you need to be recommended, then seconded and have an interview. The reality when I rang them was , don't worry about that, just come down with your bank card!
This sort of stuff does little for a game that suffers from an image problem.


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## Orikoru (Jan 10, 2019)

Could start by lowering the prices.


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## Britishshooting (Jan 10, 2019)

My course seems to be actively welcoming new members and their friends.

When i joined I got asked on 2 occasions to invite 1 friend and they could play 18 holes and have a bacon sarnie for Â£5. I invited 2 different people, one for each occasion.

1 of them joined immediately the other is joining when membership renewal is due.

They seem to also offer finance to cover the cost on a monthly basis and offer an alternative where you have an allocated number of points which you use each time you play. You only get something like 30 rounds from memory but it bridges the gap for those that don't get to play as often but also want to reduce the cost of paying a greenfee each time. You get all member benefits included so can play comps, double credit on the range etc.

I joined as a full member and paid outright, one of the lads i invited struggles for cash so pays the monthly which costs a slight bit more but its negligible and the other lad wants to play with us time to time so has joined on the points based system which he can top up should he need to.

Our club seems to be flexible and welcoming to suit the needs of potential members. There intermediate bracket also goes up to age 30 then it takes quite a price hike, I turn 30 a week after renewal but there happy to let me pay intermediate for the whole year.

Coxmoor however which is just down the road, once you have got over the waiting list you need to have interviews etc and when you do finally become a member you can never get a round in as they don't do online booking and their constantly at capacity. One of my friends is a member there and considering not rejoining as it's bothering him that much. However with a several year waiting list and a course in superb condition they don't actively need to entice members at all.


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## IanM (Jan 10, 2019)

We're full 

But a cold snap usually makes a few spaces!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Could start by lowering the prices. 

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And which could then mean the course itself suffers.

A club needs to make itself look attractive to a potential new member - show off the club , highlight what makes the course so good , sell the clubs extras for families and social activities- have faith in the product. 

If the product ( course/club ) is good then people will want to join it 

Once a club starts offering cheap deals and reduced fees then somewhere there is going to be a consequence of that.


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## Wolf (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And which could then mean the course itself suffers.

A club needs to make itself look attractive to a potential new member - show off the club , highlight what makes the course so good , sell the clubs extras for families and social activities- have faith in the product. 

If the product ( course/club ) is good then people will want to join it 

Once a club starts offering cheap deals and reduced fees then somewhere there is going to be a consequence of that.
		
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I agree with absolutley everything that LP says in this post. 

Cost is a factor for many people but in my own experience you look at clubs within the budget you have, that then takes a large number out of the equation and its then down to what those clubs in your budget offer within all the criteria mentioned above by LP


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## anotherdouble (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Could start by lowering the prices. 

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But your membership is only Â£80/100. How much cheaper do you want


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## Orikoru (Jan 10, 2019)

anotherdouble said:



			But your membership is only Â£80/100. How much cheaper do you want
		
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No, I was referring to all of the private members golf clubs around where I live which are around Â£1200 or more. Not even remotely affordable for me. Which is _why _I have a Â£100 membership at a club operating from a public course.


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## Wolf (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			No, I was referring to all of the private members golf clubs around where I live which are around Â£1200 or more. Not even remotely affordable for me. Which is _why _I have a Â£100 membership at a club operating from a public course.
		
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But then surely you're playing golf that's affordable to you, I understand can't afford the higher rate one but them making it cheaper doesn't guarantee them more members therefore have to set the amount at a rate that is able keep the club in profit to maintain it being able to run.

Not everyone can afford a private club, or afford more expensive private clubs so cut the cloth accordingly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			No, I was referring to all of the private members golf clubs around where I live which are around Â£1200 or more. Not even remotely affordable for me. Which is _why _I have a Â£100 membership at a club operating from a public course.
		
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And I have no doubt they charge that level to enable them to keep the course at the standard required for a private members club charging those fees - make the fees cheaper what happens to the course. 

Clubs arenâ€™t going to lower fees just to enable people to join if it means sacrificing the quality


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## DRW (Jan 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			oof...now you've started it.. I found the whole process of looking for a new club quite depressing, club websites telling me you need to be recommended, then seconded and have an interview. The reality when I rang them was , don't worry about that, just come down with your bank card!
This sort of stuff does little for a game that suffers from an image problem.
		
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I can understand what you say, but would add in comparison to 15 years ago, it is like night and day now. Have been though the process now at a number of clubs around the country. Clubs are much better now and more options available, mainly down to almost all clubs not having waiting lists and the power of the internet. IMHO it being forced upon them.

Hopefully they will continue evolving into more of a proper service industry than a closed doors/old boys kind of setup that they used to operate under.

The main thing is they treat you right when you contact them and are welcoming. I think all the ones I have recently contacted have been excellent, even if it involved chats/interviews or not (well being completely honest maybe apart from one but that operates in the old exclusive club kind of way and getting membership really is not a simple case of taking your bank card).

I think golf is evolving due to market and social pressures and will continue to and I am thankful of that.....


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## Orikoru (Jan 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			But then surely you're playing golf that's affordable to you, I understand can't afford the higher rate one but them making it cheaper doesn't guarantee them more members therefore have to set the amount at a rate that is able keep the club in profit to maintain it being able to run.

Not everyone can afford a private club, or afford more expensive private clubs so cut the cloth accordingly.
		
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Well it would get them_ one_ more member, haha.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 10, 2019)

I'd go as far as saying I'd estimate that 90% of GC's in Scotland are short of members. Yet as you say, some of the dinosaur attitudes is horrendous. Some of these clubs insist on letters of introduction, meetings with the captain, people to back up your application etc etc.

Dark ages outdated nonsense is my assessment!


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Most reputable golf clubs around south west Scotland would still require you to have a meeting with the captain or Secretary, I don't see why this is an issue, surely it's the clubs responsibility to go over the finer details of membership, make sure you are respectful, show you around the facilities etc. I wouldn't want my club to let in somebody who just phoned up and paid via card, I think there is value in a face to face chat, making sure the joining member is comfortable etc


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## mhwgc (Jan 10, 2019)

Interesting, our club is full and they closed the membership in October and now have a waiting list in operation. A few places usually get freed up around renewal time due to the usual churn but looks like they'll be quickly filled.


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## Orikoru (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Most reputable golf clubs around south west Scotland would still require you to have a meeting with the captain or Secretary, I don't see why this is an issue, surely it's the clubs responsibility to go over the finer details of membership, make sure you are respectful, show you around the facilities etc. I wouldn't want my club to let in somebody who just phoned up and paid via card, I think there is value in a face to face chat, making sure the joining member is comfortable etc
		
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On the one hand, I actually agree that someone from the club would obviously want to meet the new member in person before accepting them. But on the other hand, I wonder what on earth it would take for them to then reject said member based on that meeting?? Surely it must be pretty much a formality unless they openly admit to being a racist, or end up punching the captain in the face for some reason.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 10, 2019)

My membership fees have slowly gone up through time, once or twice stood still but never down. We must be doing something right because we are almost full.


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## Dando (Jan 10, 2019)

Dave1980 said:



			With a lot of clubs reporting dips in membership or having capacity to allow more members, are you clubs doing anything to attract new members?

If not what do you think they should be doing?
		
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my local 18 holer is Shooters Hill and they have done away with the joining fee but I still cant really justify the annual fee of Â£1300 when I have a love/hate relationship with golf plus I prefer to join the forums motley crew on their meets.

for me, I would love a weekend membership but I know that's not possible.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			On the one hand, I actually agree that someone from the club would obviously want to meet the new member in person before accepting them. But on the other hand, I wonder what on earth it would take for them to then reject said member based on that meeting?? Surely it must be pretty much a formality unless they openly admit to being a racist, or end up punching the captain in the face for some reason.
		
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I think in an interview situation you would have to say something pretty bad or express something not in the clubs interest to be rejected. I think there is a need for interviews and if people don't want to attend a 15 minute interview they really can't be very serious about joining


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## Wolf (Jan 10, 2019)

Dando said:



			my local 18 holer is Shooters Hill and they have done away with the joining fee but I still cant really justify the annual fee of Â£1300 when I have a love/hate relationship with golf plus I prefer to join the forums motley crew on their meets.

for me, I would love a weekend membership but I know that's not possible.
		
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How is Shooters Hill these days used to play against them in club matches as a junior always a good match


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## Orikoru (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			I think in an interview situation you would have to say something pretty bad or express something not in the clubs interest to be rejected. I think there is a need for interviews and if people don't want to attend a 15 minute interview they really can't be very serious about joining
		
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Even with my very informal and relaxed club I had a meeting with the club secretary, but as I said, it was a formality and not a hoop to jump through. I was happy about it, because I wanted to meet someone and be told about the club itself and how everything works with regards to entering comps and so on. It actually benefitted me.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Even with my very informal and relaxed club I had a meeting with the club secretary, but as I said, it was a formality and not a hoop to jump through. I was happy about it, because I wanted to meet someone and be told about the club itself and how everything works with regards to entering comps and so on. It actually benefitted me.
		
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Well I think that's how most clubs see it, nobody should want to join a club where nobody bothers to meet you to tell you about the club, show you around etc also the clubs have a duty to their existing members to make sure people who join are respectful of the clubs values


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Even with my very informal and relaxed club I had a meeting with the club secretary, but as I said, it was a formality and not a hoop to jump through. I was happy about it, because I wanted to meet someone and be told about the club itself and how everything works with regards to entering comps and so on. It actually benefitted me.
		
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Our "interviews" are carried out by the incumbant vice captain, and is in reality a talk through of how the club works and such. A benefit to the prospetive new member.


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## Grant85 (Jan 10, 2019)

When I started playing again, all of the clubs round the Southside of Glasgow still appear to have joining fees and the usual introductory letters that were required.

One or two didn't have a joining fee, but I think it is clear that those are ones that maybe are in poorer states of health and / or have a brisker turnover of members.

I think most are in a reasonable position but it is a fragile eco-system and as far as I can see all are doing something to get new people in their club.

It does seem the cost of golf in Glasgow is expensive (basically Â£1,000 pa) and I struggle to see how it is so much dearer than in smaller towns and cities with similar properties and climates. I think it is mainly a case of the clubs in and around Glasgow having had a big population base, and back in the day when clubs were full there was a case to creep the prices higher and higher. Now that clubs are not in as good a state, they have become used to the fees that the 400 or so members pay and operate accordingly.


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## Dando (Jan 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			How is Shooters Hill these days used to play against them in club matches as a junior always a good match
		
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no idea mate. I've lived within 5 miles of the place all my life and never stepped foot on it.
a few guys I played football with joined there after Broke Hill shut and they all said its a great course but its gets waterlogged in places


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			When I started playing again, all of the clubs round the Southside of Glasgow still appear to have joining fees and the usual introductory letters that were required.

One or two didn't have a joining fee, but I think it is clear that those are ones that maybe are in poorer states of health and / or have a brisker turnover of members.

I think most are in a reasonable position but it is a fragile eco-system and as far as I can see all are doing something to get new people in their club.

It does seem the cost of golf in Glasgow is expensive (basically Â£1,000 pa) and I struggle to see how it is so much dearer than in smaller towns and cities. I think it is mainly a case of the clubs in and around Glasgow having had a big population base, and back in the day when clubs were full there was a case to creep the prices higher and higher. Now that clubs are not in as good a state, they have become used to the fees that the 400 or so members pay and operate accordingly.
		
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As far as I'm aware most Glasgow clubs still do very well for members, my own club still has a joining fee but I'd say 70% don't. If you don't know any members it's easy enough to get the captain and vice captain to propose you if they are doing the interview. Fees are about 200-300 more expensive in SW Scotland generally to what you'd find more north in the central belt and eastwards going towards Edinburgh, if they really were struggling though the fees would come down


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Well I think that's how most clubs see it, nobody should want to join a club where nobody bothers to meet you to tell you about the club, show you around etc also the clubs have a duty to their existing members to make sure people who join are respectful of the clubs values
		
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Yep agree 100%
Golf is fairly incestuous, if someone gets a reputation locally there are always people at other clubs who know someone who knows someone etc so an interview is a quick check  to make sure you are accepting the 'right sort' (joke!)


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## DCB (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Could start by lowering the prices. 

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That's the start of the slippery slope to oblivion.  Once started there is no return.


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## Grant85 (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			As far as I'm aware most Glasgow clubs still do very well for members, my own club still has a joining fee but I'd say 70% don't. If you don't know any members it's easy enough to get the captain and vice captain to propose you if they are doing the interview. Fees are about 200-300 more expensive in SW Scotland generally to what you'd find more north in the central belt and eastwards going towards Edinburgh, if they really were struggling though the fees would come down
		
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I think they probably are doing ok. Certainly around the Southside and East Renfrewshire, but there's not exactly anyone building a new clubhouse or turning folk away - and like I said, I believe Whitecraigs is the only one that genuinely has limited spaces for new full members. 

But like I said, it can all change within a few years.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 10, 2019)

Likewise Paisley GC is probably the only one in Renfrewshire with limited spaces.

Its a fantastic club. Well run, great condition and superb staff.

You could probably walk into any other club in the area with a pocket of cash and join instantly.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I think they probably are doing ok. Certainly around the Southside and East Renfrewshire, but there's not exactly anyone building a new clubhouse or turning folk away - and like I said, I believe Whitecraigs is the only one that genuinely has limited spaces for new full members.

But like I said, it can all change within a few years.
		
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I'm a member of whitecraigs, not really sure on membership availability. We have just submitted plans for a clubhouse extension for a lounge and simulator area


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Jan 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			We're full 

But a cold snap usually makes a few spaces! 

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AAH, that takes me back to over 30 years ago, going up to the club when I was on the waiting list hoping to see the flag at 1/2 mast, ticking down the years until I might be able to join as a restricted 5 day member, happy days


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## Dave1980 (Jan 10, 2019)

Dando said:



			my local 18 holer is Shooters Hill and they have done away with the joining fee but I still cant really justify the annual fee of Â£1300 when I have a love/hate relationship with golf plus I prefer to join the forums motley crew on their meets.

for me, I would love a weekend membership but I know that's not possible.
		
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Iâ€™ve just joined Eltham Warren, mainly because how close it is to me, but also as they have a bit more flexibility with membership options. It may only be a 9 hole course, but has two sets off tees and is not the easiest of courses and has been I great condition this year. 

Interestingly the club I left had a weekend membership option but had too many restrictions to go with it. How much would you be prepared to pay for weekend membership?


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## Matty6 (Jan 10, 2019)

Weâ€™re nearly full. Think thereâ€™s only 15 or so places left.


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## Grant85 (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			I'm a member of whitecraigs, not really sure on membership availability. We have just submitted plans for a clubhouse extension for a lounge and simulator area
		
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Certainly my impression that that is the club with the most healthy membership numbers in the area. 

Good luck with the plans.


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## Dave1980 (Jan 10, 2019)

My old club had a big push for membership at the time another local club closed, this resulted in a full membership and too many people wanted to play at the same time, so you could turn up at 7:30 on a Saturday and there would be 10 groups already on the first tee. So sometimes an increased subscription could be better than a full membership.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Certainly my impression that that is the club with the most healthy membership numbers in the area.

Good luck with the plans.
		
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Pollock would definitely be right up there, can come across as very clique though


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## Jacko_G (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Pollock would definitely be right up there, can come across as very clique though
		
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And no joining fee. 

Lovely track though, always enjoy it.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			And no joining fee.

Lovely track though, always enjoy it.
		
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Not a kick in the you know what's off Â£1500 a year though


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## jim8flog (Jan 10, 2019)

Where I play interviews etc have been gone for a very long time.

It is a simple case of turn up with your money and you can become a member. There are always vacancies. We have the largest membership in Dorset I believe.

Our promotions are reduced rate winter membership (one time only offer) and join now get the months up to the end of March included in the Annual subscription for free.

Minimal joining fee, more of an admin charge to cover cost of bag tags , club charges card (needed for booking in comps) etc


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## Grant85 (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Pollock would definitely be right up there, can come across as very clique though
		
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Jacko_G said:



			And no joining fee.

Lovely track though, always enjoy it.
		
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I imagine they have had a real economic reality check and have finally started to do a lot more to encourage new members. 
Also note their intermediary memberships extend to 35.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I imagine they have had a real economic reality check and have finally started to do a lot more to encourage new members.
Also note their intermediary memberships extend to 35.
		
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I heard they were thinking of reinstating a joining fee as there was a lot of new applications, obviously more than they wanted. It's an expensive yearly fee and definitely more than most are prepared to pay for membership when most other locally clubs are around Â£450 cheaper. Id have joined pollok but the lack of practice facilities puts me off if im honest, know a few members though and it's a nice track always well presented.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Not a kick in the you know what's off Â£1500 a year though
		
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Yes I did see that but has a few benefits with the membership, concierge service, etc good reciprocals etc.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I imagine they have had a real economic reality check and have finally started to do a lot more to encourage new members. 
Also note their intermediary memberships extend to 35.
		
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It's a fantastic course and clubhouse, attention to detail and service is excellent. I like it a lot.


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## Dando (Jan 10, 2019)

Dave1980 said:



			Iâ€™ve just joined Eltham Warren, mainly because how close it is to me, but also as they have a bit more flexibility with membership options. It may only be a 9 hole course, but has two sets off tees and is not the easiest of courses and has been I great condition this year.

Interestingly the club I left had a weekend membership option but had too many restrictions to go with it. How much would you be prepared to pay for weekend membership?[/QUOTE

I played Eltham Warren last year and thought it was a decent course
		
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## drdel (Jan 10, 2019)

Members are a dying breeds. Too many clubs fishing in an understocked 'lake'.


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## Bit of rough (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			On the one hand, I actually agree that someone from the club would obviously want to meet the new member in person before accepting them. But on the other hand, I wonder what on earth it would take for them to then reject said member based on that meeting?? Surely it must be pretty much a formality unless they openly admit to being a racist, or end up punching the captain in the face for some reason.
		
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I joined a club within ten miles or so of you fifteen years ago, after playing there many times paying green fees.  The first few times I used the Members Only locker room, I discovered that a large proportion of the members in there were openly, horribly racist.  Back to the Visitors locker room, and I started counting down the months left on my membership.


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## Wolf (Jan 10, 2019)

Bit of rough said:



			I joined a club within ten miles or so of you fifteen years ago, after playing there many times paying green fees.  The first few times I used the Members Only locker room, I discovered that a large proportion of the members in there were openly, horribly racist.  Back to the Visitors locker room, and I started counting down the months left on my membership.
		
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That sort of horror story is why golf still in some parts gets a bad name. 

Whilst this happened to you it's not indicative of other clubs or something that should put people off as golf clubs now are welcoming, friendly places plus these things are not the fault of a club but more of the people who hold such bigoted views which now in society are the very sad few. I'd also ask did you report this to the club that it had occurred because I'm sure something would have been done


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## Oldham92 (Jan 10, 2019)

Only joined in 2018 but for the new membership year starting April they changed the pricing structure. Used to have a full membership then a few categories under 30 (18-21, 22-25, 26-29 I think) that were cheaper. Now they're just having two rates, under 40 and over 40. Makes it slightly more expensive than it was if you're under 30 but cheaper if you're 30-40.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2019)

We offer a competitive age based annual fee up to the age of 35. We're doing nicely in recruiting and we have introduced a buddy scheme to help newbies integrate


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## tugglesf239 (Jan 10, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			No, I was referring to all of the private members golf clubs around where I live which are around Â£1200 or more. Not even remotely affordable for me. Which is _why _I have a Â£100 membership at a club operating from a public course.
		
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You should have stuck in at school then ðŸ˜‰


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## Bit of rough (Jan 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			That sort of horror story is why golf still in some parts gets a bad name.

Whilst this happened to you it's not indicative of other clubs or something that should put people off as golf clubs now are welcoming, friendly places plus these things are not the fault of a club but more of the people who hold such bigoted views which now in society are the very sad few. I'd also ask did you report this to the club that it had occurred because I'm sure something would have been done
		
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It took me by surprise at the time.  I'd become friendly with a few members from green fee rounds, regularly had a beer in the bar; I suspect I'd got to know one element of the membership before I joined, then encountered another element in a different area of the clubhouse.  Honestly, I suspect many of them will be either dead or close to dead by now.

I'll be careful what I write about it; the geographical mention I gave earlier encompasses so many clubs, there's virtually no chance of someone correctly identifying the place I'm referring to.

I mentioned the racism to the club Pro, who'd been giving me regular lessons.   Young bloke, good guy, liked him.  He said something along the lines of "yeah, some of them are awful.  You just have to ignore them, keep out of their way.  Thing is, they've been members forever".   2004 - doesn't seem that long ago, but I'd hope there'd be no chance of a blind eye being turned today.

Something else disturbed me at that club, before I'd joined; the number of members who'd leave the bar clearly the worse for wear, and head straight to the car park.  The Pro again: "If you're a copper at XXX or YYY nicks, you can play golf here for free.  Lots of them do, they're here every day.  Know what I'm saying?".  

Thinking back to it now, it feels like it must have been the Dark Ages.  2004.  Not that long ago.

Bringing "Golf Clubs - Things That Get On My....."  bang up to date, I played a round on my own over Christmas at a course hundreds of miles away, visiting family.  Nothing grand - a Â£25 green fee place.  Busy day there, I was lucky to get on.   

Not being the greatest golfer, I needed perhaps slightly more shots than many to get around, and was keen to keep moving briskly to stay ahead of the two ball behind me.  On one of the last few holes, a Par 3, I hooked my tee shot about 25 yards left of the green, into the fringe of a neighbouring fairway.  Hoofed it up to the ball, and saw a four ball game around 150 yards up the fairway, all of them on the move with trollies, balls pretty close to where mine had landed.  What to do?  Sod it, just play, get out of the way, 

Lining up my putt, flagstick in (not quite 1/1/19), one of the four ball came over to the green.  "You should have waited until we'd played our balls and passed you before playing".   Hmmm.  Yes, he's right, but really?  "You're right, I'm sorry".  Another of the four ball: "Take that flagstick out before you putt".  Really?  He's detected my nose is slightly out of joint, surely, and is making a bad joke to try and lighten the mood.   "I'm practicing for 2019".   "2019's not till next week.  [pointing] Take That Flagstick Out Before You Putt".  And off the four of them go, shaking their heads.

I was in the wrong on both counts; though the first time seems to me pretty trivial, the second time surely not even of concern to my mother.  Funny how something like that can leave a sour taste in the mouth that lingers for hours.

I'm thinking of joining a club again now, as it happens.  The first club has a membership offer on right now, which is pretty good, and it's a decent course.  I discussed the options with a local teaching pro I know, not affiliated to a club.  Another nearby option "good course, a few real asreohles though".  And another "good course, seems like a really friendly relaxed place".  Guess which one I'm leaning towards?

(Here endeth the essay).


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## robinthehood (Jan 10, 2019)

Did they have some sort of rule against putting with the flag in ?


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## Bit of rough (Jan 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Did they have some sort of rule against putting with the flag in ?
		
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Confession - I didn't read the local rules before setting off on my own for a practice round.  But I got the very firm impression I'd bumped into members of the club's Standards Police, who took the opportunity to school me while they had the chance.

It's funny with hindsight, though at the time, perhaps slightly less so.


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## robinthehood (Jan 10, 2019)

Bit of rough said:



			Confession - I didn't read the local rules before setting off on my own for a practice round.  But I got the very firm impression I'd bumped into members of the club's Standards Police, who took the opportunity to school me while they had the chance.

It's funny with hindsight, though at the time, perhaps slightly less so.
		
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They just sound  like the usual arses that inhabit clubs up and down the land sadly.


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## SteveJay (Jan 10, 2019)

I have seen a few clubs around here advertising membership deals without a joining fee, including, interestingly, Frilford Heath. Think membership there is still pricey, but surprised a course like that has to do that to attract new members.


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## KenL (Jan 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Most reputable golf clubs around south west Scotland would still require you to have a meeting with the captain or Secretary, I don't see why this is an issue, surely it's the clubs responsibility to go over the finer details of membership, make sure you are respectful, show you around the facilities etc. I wouldn't want my club to let in somebody who just phoned up and paid via card, I think there is value in a face to face chat, making sure the joining member is comfortable etc
		
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For me at least this sort of attitude could stop people, who would turn out to be great members, joining a club.

I agree, you may get the odd PITA getting in but come renewal time, tell them they are not being allowed to re-join.  Plenty companies operate a probation period, clubs could do they same.

An interview with the captain/secretary won't prevent the odd "nightmare" member getting in.


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## Grant85 (Jan 10, 2019)

KenL said:



			For me at least this sort of attitude could stop people, who would turn out to be great members, joining a club.

I agree, you may get the odd PITA getting in but come renewal time, tell them they are not being allowed to re-join.  Plenty companies operate a probation period, clubs could do they same.

An interview with the captain/secretary won't prevent the odd "nightmare" member getting in.
		
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My club did that, but it was made quite obvious early at the enquiry stage that this was more an introductory meeting and certainly not an interview. 

The Captain and Vice Captain spent a lot of time meeting with and speaking to new / prospective members. Answering questions. 
Asking about someones golf experience should they need to know about etiquette or dress code etc. 

However I certainly agree that this may put the odd person off. Where it is not an interview, but more an introductory meeting, they should make it clear that it is such.


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## woofers (Jan 10, 2019)

This one's tempting isn't it......................?

_"There are two ways of joining ..........Golf Club as a new member. The usual way is through an existing member who must propose you with an introductory letter and seek support from several other members. If you are not known to members, there is an exceptional self proposing procedure which involves submitting a personal application letter and form plus support from suitable referees. Either way and once *vetting and interviews have been completed* satisfactorily, you can then be entered in a waiting pool of applicants from which new members may be selected from time to time. Once selected, you will be invited to join and become a member on payment of a joining fee and annual subscription."_

Straight from their website, really nice golf course though.


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## Orikoru (Jan 10, 2019)

Bit of rough said:



			I joined a club within ten miles or so of you fifteen years ago, after playing there many times paying green fees.  The first few times I used the Members Only locker room, I discovered that a large proportion of the members in there were openly, horribly racist.  Back to the Visitors locker room, and I started counting down the months left on my membership.
		
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Damn, that must have been extremely saddening to hear. I did have a similar experience with two members of our club, and what made it worse was that it was during drinks after a match against another club, so I found myself apologising on their behalf to our opponents, lest they give our club a bad name. I comfort myself with the fact that these two are well in their 70s and hopefully not long for this world. Thankfully every other member I've met in my two years has been sound.


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## Homer (Jan 10, 2019)

woofers said:



			This one's tempting isn't it......................?

_"There are two ways of joining ..........Golf Club as a new member. The usual way is through an existing member who must propose you with an introductory letter and seek support from several other members. If you are not known to members, there is an exceptional self proposing procedure which involves submitting a personal application letter and form plus support from suitable referees. Either way and once *vetting and interviews have been completed* satisfactorily, you can then be entered in a waiting pool of applicants from which new members may be selected from time to time. Once selected, you will be invited to join and become a member on payment of a joining fee and annual subscription."_

Straight from their website, really nice golf course though.
		
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Itâ€™s not West Surrey - I know that!


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## Italian outcast (Jan 11, 2019)

I'm hoping to join my local club over here (as in my signature) after playing a bit last year as a guest
Going down later this month to get details about likelihood and process (and fees) don't know about joining fees here 
I've played with a few members and all seemed friendly and welcoming
Interview in Italian would be interesting (mines mediocre at best at the moment) - and European clubs have additional things (maybe even a round with the pro or senior member)


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 11, 2019)

woofers said:



			This one's tempting isn't it......................?

_"There are two ways of joining ..........Golf Club as a new member. The usual way is through an existing member who must propose you with an introductory letter and seek support from several other members. If you are not known to members, there is an exceptional self proposing procedure which involves submitting a personal application letter and form plus support from suitable referees. Either way and once *vetting and interviews have been completed* satisfactorily, you can then be entered in a waiting pool of applicants from which new members may be selected from time to time. Once selected, you will be invited to join and become a member on payment of a joining fee and annual subscription."_

Straight from their website, really nice golf course though.
		
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Sounds like Rye. Know they were running that sort of policy about ten years ago
Further to the subject of blatant racism, that's sad to hear about in todays modern society but it just shows how insular and stuck in their ways some of the older members of golf clubs are and perhaps indicates to a degree why some clubs are finding it hard to transist into a more modern club and one that would appeal to racially diverse and younger golfers and offer an open and pleasurable experience on and off the course


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## DRW (Jan 11, 2019)

woofers said:



			This one's tempting isn't it......................?

_"There are two ways of joining ..........Golf Club as a new member. The usual way is through an existing member who must propose you with an introductory letter and seek support from several other members. If you are not known to members, there is an exceptional self proposing procedure which involves submitting a personal application letter and form plus support from suitable referees. Either way and once *vetting *and interviews have been completed satisfactorily, you can then be entered in a waiting pool of applicants from which new members may be selected from time to time. Once selected, you will be invited to join and become a member on payment of a joining fee and annual subscription."_

Straight from their website, really nice golf course though.
		
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They  have missed one trick that I am having to do shortly, you having to play a round with a couple of officers to obtain their support as well as all the above, so that they can support your application if you do not know any members. You could suggest it to West SUssex, to improve their *vetting *procedure.

I suppose I think at least they do have an option available to people who do not know any members that wish to join, which is a good thing but its not very welcoming


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			I think in an interview situation you would have to say something pretty bad or express something not in the clubs interest to be rejected. I think there is a need for interviews and if people don't want to attend a 15 minute interview they really can't be very serious about joining
		
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...and I think it worthwhile the membership secretary pointing out to any prospective member face-to-face and in the nicest way that the club has rules and expectations in respect of etiquette and behaviour that all members are expected to adhere to - and that miscreants are pulled up...and if the prospective member doesn't like the sound of that and cheerio - then fine - so be it.


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## sunshine (Jan 11, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sounds like Rye. Know they were running that sort of policy about ten years ago
Further to the subject of blatant racism, that's sad to hear about in todays modern society but it just shows how insular and stuck in their ways some of the older members of golf clubs are and perhaps indicates to a degree why some clubs are finding it hard to transist into a more modern club and one that would appeal to racially diverse and younger golfers and offer an open and pleasurable experience on and off the course
		
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Doubt you can self propose yourself and join Rye without knowing any members. That place is pretty much a closed shop unless you know the right people.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2019)

woofers said:



			This one's tempting isn't it......................?

_"There are two ways of joining ..........Golf Club as a new member. The usual way is through an existing member who must propose you with an introductory letter and seek support from several other members. If you are not known to members, there is an exceptional self proposing procedure which involves submitting a personal application letter and form plus support from suitable referees. Either way and once *vetting and interviews have been completed* satisfactorily, you can then be entered in a waiting pool of applicants from which new members may be selected from time to time. Once selected, you will be invited to join and become a member on payment of a joining fee and annual subscription."_

Straight from their website, really nice golf course though.
		
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Iâ€™m struggling to see whatâ€™s the problem ? 

Itâ€™s prob clearly a course that is attractive to people and I suspect itâ€™s a private members club so they would like something in place to ensure the right people for them join the club


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## robinthehood (Jan 11, 2019)

Ultimately there are more courses



Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m struggling to see whatâ€™s the problem ? 

Itâ€™s prob clearly a course that is attractive to people and I suspect itâ€™s a private members club so they would like something in place to ensure the right people for them join the club
		
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It is  up to them,  I'm not sure what you mean by the right people though..... 

I thought golf was trying to shed it's stuffy old image and  be more inclusive.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ultimately there are more courses
It is  up to them,  I'm not sure what you mean by the right people though.....

I thought golf was trying to shed it's stuffy old image and  be more inclusive.
		
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Maybe they want people who are looking to be fully involved in the club , maybe they want people who value the old traditions etc etc - who knows what their set criteria is but most of the top private courses will have one - and they can because they are courses most want to play and be a member off. Just because there is a joining process doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s stuffy or not inclusive.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 11, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sounds like Rye. Know they were running that sort of policy about ten years ago
		
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Rye certainly haven't relaxed their membership process to anything like that degree!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 11, 2019)

Would I get blackballed during an interview if I mentioned I had no intention to tend the flag ever, regardless of the situation???


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## woofers (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe they want people who are looking to be fully involved in the club , maybe they want people who value the old traditions etc etc - who knows what their set criteria is but most of the top private courses will have one - and they can because they are courses most want to play and be a member off. Just because there is a joining process doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s stuffy or not inclusive.
		
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Trust me, this place is certainly stuffy and not inclusive. You are interviewed, "vetted !", and put on a waiting list. After x years, and no vacancies (for you), you have to go through the whole scenario again. You have a very good chance of acceptance if you are ex military officer rank or some other honour and certainly part of the establishment. You must also enjoy singles or foursomes golf, any other form of golf is anathema to them. It's the sort of place that I expect the application form to ask for your breed of dog, and if that isn't Labrador, you won't get much further.
But it is still a delightful golf course.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2019)

woofers said:



			Trust me, this place is certainly stuffy and not inclusive. You are interviewed, "vetted !", and put on a waiting list. After x years, and no vacancies (for you), you have to go through the whole scenario again. You have a very good chance of acceptance if you are ex military officer rank or some other honour and certainly part of the establishment. You must also enjoy singles or foursomes golf, any other form of golf is anathema to them. It's the sort of place that I expect the application form to ask for your breed of dog, and if that isn't Labrador, you won't get much further.
But it is still a delightful golf course.
		
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And Iâ€™m going to guess they are full and have a waiting list which shows they have no problems getting members - and the reason why will be simple , their product is good and attractive - the course.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 11, 2019)

woofers said:



			Trust me, this place is certainly stuffy and not inclusive. You are interviewed, "vetted !", and put on a waiting list. After x years, and no vacancies (for you), you have to go through the whole scenario again. You have a very good chance of acceptance if you are ex military officer rank or some other honour and certainly part of the establishment. You must also enjoy singles or foursomes golf, any other form of golf is anathema to them. It's the sort of place that I expect the application form to ask for your breed of dog, and if that isn't Labrador, you won't get much further.
But it is still a delightful golf course.
		
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And is it located in the Pulborough/Storrington area


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Iâ€™m going to guess they are full and have a waiting list which shows they have no problems getting members - and the reason why will be simple , their product is good and attractive - the course.
		
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Sounds the opposite to me. Sounds like they are trying to stay firmly in the 1970's and want to be exclusive elite and to be honest (in my opinion) snobbish. The whole idea of "vetting" and making a potential wait and then repeat the process is definitely not designed to be inclusive. To me it's very sad, irrespective of the quality of the "product" that it's being like this. I would even suggest that perhaps they aren't full (so would rather give their well heeled existing members higher fees each year) but don't want to be


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2019)

anotherdouble said:



			And is it located in the Pulborough/Storrington area
		
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It is indeed and itâ€™s a beautiful course


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## richart (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is indeed and itâ€™s a beautiful course
		
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Though they let anyone pay a visitors green fee, even me and Smiffy.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Iâ€™m going to guess they are full and have a waiting list which shows they have no problems getting members - and the reason why will be simple , their product is good and attractive - the course.
		
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You can have a great product and not be an "exclusive" club. Plenty of "inclusive" great product clubs too.

And by exclusive and inclusive I mean membership wise.


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## woofers (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Iâ€™m going to guess they are full and have a waiting list which shows they have no problems getting members - and the reason why will be simple , their product is good and attractive - the course.
		
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You're right Phil, I really shouldn't be posting about them on this thread, because this is about golf clubs that are low on membership.
However, they are mostly everything the golfing world, in trying to 'grow the game', tell the rest of world golf isn't. Elitist.
It's full because many of the members are either full of themselves or too pompous to consider playing anywhere else, and like minds attract. And good luck to them, and anyone else on this forum who believes that is what a successful golf club should be.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			You can have a great product and not be an "exclusive" club. Plenty of "inclusive" great product clubs too.

And by exclusive and inclusive I mean membership wise.
		
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You can no doubt about that



woofers said:



			You're right Phil, I really shouldn't be posting about them on this thread, because this is about golf clubs that are low on membership.
However, they are mostly everything the golfing world, in trying to 'grow the game', tell the rest of world golf isn't. Elitist.
It's full because many of the members are either full of themselves or too pompous to consider playing anywhere else, and like minds attract. And good luck to them, and anyone else on this forum who believes that is what a successful golf club should be.
		
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It is a successful club though - itâ€™s successful because of the course at the end of the day. It may not be to your taste but that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s not successful 

Golfs â€œimageâ€ isnâ€™t going to change to any great detail - one of the biggest golf tournaments is on a course that no one can play - yet itâ€™s the one most want to watch - Augusta is the King of elitism 

This club can have an selective set of principles for their members because they know itâ€™s a course people want to play and want to join irrelevant of the stuffy attitude.


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## robinthehood (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And Iâ€™m going to guess they are full and have a waiting list which shows they have no problems getting members - and the reason why will be simple , their product is good and attractive - the course.
		
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It sounds like a truly dreadful club.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It sounds like a truly dreadful club.
		
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It was fine when I played there , very welcoming, treated very well by all and the course was excellent , others on the forum have also been and enjoyed it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can no doubt about that



It is a successful club though - itâ€™s successful because of the course at the end of the day. It may not be to your taste but that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s not successful

Golfs â€œimageâ€ isnâ€™t going to change to any great detail - one of the biggest golf tournaments is on a course that no one can play - yet itâ€™s the one most want to watch - Augusta is the King of elitism

This club can have an selective set of principles for their members because they know itâ€™s a course people want to play and want to join irrelevant of the stuffy attitude.
		
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But Augusta over the years has had more than its share of critics for the fact it's elitist, until recently there were no women members etc and indeed it has been said that the Masters shouldn't be considered a major because of the way the club was run. 

For me it's very simple. You can have the best course you like but if you're attitude is that terrible and the whole ethos of the club membership so elitist then quite frankly it's not a place I'd want to be a member of anyway irrespective if I could every meet their criteria and process (that's a no so academic)


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## robinthehood (Jan 11, 2019)

There will always be some exceptions like West Sussex and the whole exclusive private members thing still clearly appeals to some, but look around, the game has been in decline for a long long time.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			There will always be some exceptions like West Sussex and the whole exclusive private members thing still clearly appeals to some, but look around, the game has been in decline for a long long time.
		
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Good point but will there come a time when this sort of club can no longer continue with these narrow attitudes (especially with their older members). Some of the very exclusive clubs have been forced to change, Augusta letting in women (granted in small numbers), was it Muirfield that were forced to or lose the Open


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			There will always be some exceptions like West Sussex and the whole exclusive private members thing still clearly appeals to some, but look around, the game has been in decline for a long long time.
		
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Decline in what way ? Golf participation has been at a steady level for a while , good golf courses arenâ€™t closing , the ones that do are mainly the poor courses , ones where there is already a high level number of courses or poorly run ones. There will be the odd few that will be sold for good money 

But a good course will survive and do well , Golf is not at the â€œcriticalâ€ levels some suggestion - these â€œexclusiveâ€ members courses actually seem to be the ones doing well - you donâ€™t hear about them closing. 

Golf had a boom in the 80â€™s - lots of courses got built on the back of that boom , most of those courses were poor and when the recession hit those were the courses that suffered

A recent survey showed that people playing golf was actually on the rise in England 

http://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2018/09/club-membership-has-risen-in-england/


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## robinthehood (Jan 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Decline in what way ? Golf participation has been at a steady level for a while , good golf courses arenâ€™t closing , the ones that do are mainly the poor courses , ones where there is already a high level number of courses or poorly run ones. There will be the odd few that will be sold for good money

But a good course will survive and do well , Golf is not at the â€œcriticalâ€ levels some suggestion - these â€œexclusiveâ€ members courses actually seem to be the ones doing well - you donâ€™t hear about them closing.

Golf had a boom in the 80â€™s - lots of courses got built on the back of that boom , most of those courses were poor and when the recession hit those were the courses that suffered

A recent survey showed that people playing golf was actually on the rise in England

http://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2018/09/club-membership-has-risen-in-england/

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Your report tells of the well documented decline of golf, for goodness sake at least read it yourself before posting. 
I can find you any number of traditional historic  members clubs that have gone under, to suggest that its just the ones built in the 80s and 90s that are suffering is just daft.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Your report tells of the well documented decline of golf, for goodness sake at least read it yourself before posting. 
I can find you any number of traditional historic  members clubs that have gone under, to suggest that its just the ones built in the 80s and 90s that are suffering is just daft.
		
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Golf in Scotland is also in decline. It was only yesterday that I read Brunston Castle in deepest darkest Ayrshire has closed it's doors for good now too. 

Wasn't a bad track, some decent holes. Probably built in the wrong location.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 12, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Golf in Scotland is also in decline. It was only yesterday that I read Brunston Castle in deepest darkest Ayrshire has closed it's doors for good now too.

Wasn't a bad track, some decent holes. Probably built in the wrong location.
		
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Played a tie at it last year, literally the worst greens I've ever played on there wasn't any grass on half of them


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## Grant85 (Jan 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is a successful club though - itâ€™s successful because of the course at the end of the day. It may not be to your taste but that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s not successful

Golfs â€œimageâ€ isnâ€™t going to change to any great detail - one of the biggest golf tournaments is on a course that no one can play - yet itâ€™s the one most want to watch - Augusta is the King of elitism

This club can have an selective set of principles for their members because they know itâ€™s a course people want to play and want to join irrelevant of the stuffy attitude.
		
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Fair enough some of these clubs are successful, but at some point their ageing membership will not be able to sustain their club on their terms. And while they are entitled to run their own affairs, they are harmful to the image of the game. 

Look at Muirfield, they were broadly of the view that they could continue as a Gentlemen's club until the R&A stated they would be off the Open Rota. At that point the finances were going to change considerably for them, as well as no doubt the prestige of hosting the Open and they got over the hurdle at the 2nd time of asking. I'm sure it is still as elitist as ever (which is just as great a crime as being sexist) and while they are entitled to run their club how they want, it doesn't mean they are entitled to host the Open there and for a week in July, have the golfing focus on a stuffy Gentleman's club who are pretty much exclusively open to white upper class males. 

I personally would like to see some minimum thresholds for clubs on the Open rota. In terms of a minimum number of tee times each week for visitors (at a sensible rate) and access to membership for all residents who live in the area of the club, obviously subject to a cap.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Played a tie at it last year, literally the worst greens I've ever played on there wasn't any grass on half of them
		
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I'd assume that it was in decline then!

When it was a few years old it wasn't a bad track tbh.

Some decent holes.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			No, I was referring to all of the private members golf clubs around where I live which are around Â£1200 or more. Not even remotely affordable for me. Which is _why _I have a Â£100 membership at a club operating from a public course.
		
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Fair enough, but presume you have to pay a green fee each time you play.

How much is this and how often do you play?

Coz if itâ€™s Â£15 a pop and you play twice a week , thatâ€™s Â£1500 plus Â£100 over a year.

If itâ€™s Â£20 a pop and you play once a week thatâ€™s still Â£1100 with the fee. 

Just askin


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

If you think that clubs like WS are going to decline as the membership dies off then you really don't understand the appeal (and it's far from being just the course). 
People like being a member of "exclusive" clubs. The harder to get in, the more they like it. They like being surrounded by people just like them. They feel safe. They don't want any Tom, Dick or Tyler to join. They want Charles, Henry and Bertie. 
This isn't going away, in fact, in today's political climate, I'd say that it was increasing.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 12, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd assume that it was in decline then!

When it was a few years old it wasn't a bad track tbh.

Some decent holes.
		
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Yeah not a bad layout but it was a mess, just in the wrong location, too far out the way and too many quality courses around the area


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## Grant85 (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			If you think that clubs like WS are going to decline as the membership dies off then you really don't understand the appeal (and it's far from being just the course).
People like being a member of "exclusive" clubs. The harder to get in, the more they like it. They like being surrounded by people just like them. They feel safe. They don't want any Tom, Dick or Tyler to join. They want Charles, Henry and Bertie.
This isn't going away, in fact, in today's political climate, I'd say that it was increasing.
		
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As I said, that may be the case, but it may not go on for ever and if clubs want to do that, then fair enough - but for the image of golf it is better that they keep a low profile. There are a few clubs like that in Glasgow - Pollok and Glasgow Golf Club.

Pollok has now opened it's doors, reduced its joining fee and put up very attractive deals for younger members.

As far as I know, Glasgow is doing ok (apart from a fire last year) but the Glasgow operation may well be heavily subsidised by the Ayrshire course and they aren't even at the stage of advertising the cost of membership.


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## Homer (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Fair enough some of these clubs are successful, but at some point their ageing membership will not be able to sustain their club on their terms. And while they are entitled to run their own affairs, they are harmful to the image of the game.

Look at Muirfield, they were broadly of the view that they could continue as a Gentlemen's club until the R&A stated they would be off the Open Rota. At that point the finances were going to change considerably for them, as well as no doubt the prestige of hosting the Open and they got over the hurdle at the 2nd time of asking. I'm sure it is still as elitist as ever (which is just as great a crime as being sexist) and while they are entitled to run their club how they want, it doesn't mean they are entitled to host the Open there and for a week in July, have the golfing focus on a stuffy Gentleman's club who are pretty much exclusively open to white upper class males.

I personally would like to see some minimum thresholds for clubs on the Open rota. In terms of a minimum number of tee times each week for visitors (at a sensible rate) and access to membership for all residents who live in the area of the club, obviously subject to a cap.
		
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But they donâ€™t want to just play it at St Andrews!

You can get on all of them for a sensible rate anyway already too.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			As I said, that may be the case, but it may not go on for ever and if clubs want to do that, then fair enough - but for the image of golf it is better that they keep a low profile. There are a few clubs like that in Glasgow - Pollok and Glasgow Golf Club.

Pollok has now opened it's doors, reduced its joining fee and put up very attractive deals for younger members.

As far as I know, Glasgow is doing ok (apart from a fire last year) but the Glasgow operation may well be heavily subsidised by the Ayrshire course and they aren't even at the stage of advertising the cost of membership.
		
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I'd hardly say that Pollok and Killermont are in the same "exclusive" leagues as the London based clubs that are getting mentioned.

The closest we can come up with is Loch Lomond. Â£160k debenture and then Â£6k a year for 6 months golf.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 12, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Fair enough, but presume you have to pay a green fee each time you play.

How much is this and how often do you play?

Coz if itâ€™s Â£15 a pop and you play twice a week , thatâ€™s Â£1500 plus Â£100 over a year.

If itâ€™s Â£20 a pop and you play once a week thatâ€™s still Â£1100 with the fee.

Just askin
		
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Full weekend green fee for a local resident is Â£20 according to the council website Phil, so Â£1100 per year for one round week or Â£1200 for as much as you can play elsewhere...  no brainer for me.


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## SatchFan (Jan 12, 2019)

I pay Â£90 per year for membership at my local pay and play with a seven day season ticket costing Â£590. Playing 3 or 4 times a week that's an absolute bargain for me.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 12, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Full weekend green fee for a local resident is Â£20 according to the council website Phil, so Â£1100 per year for one round week or Â£1200 for as much as you can play elsewhere...  no brainer for me.
		
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Yup, but it might depend on cash flow, obviously if only playing a couple of times a month, then itâ€™s a different kettle of fish, but for a regular player, itâ€™s a no brainer ðŸ‘


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## anotherdouble (Jan 12, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yup, but it might depend on cash flow, obviously if only playing a couple of times a month, then itâ€™s a different kettle of fish, but for a regular player, itâ€™s a no brainer ðŸ‘
		
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Even with cash flow Phil a lot of clubs do direct debits or even use the likes of fairway credit (other credit firms are available). I know you pay a tad more but for the extra golf you can get you will be quids in


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 12, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Fair enough, but presume you have to pay a green fee each time you play.

How much is this and how often do you play?

Coz if itâ€™s Â£15 a pop and you play twice a week , thatâ€™s Â£1500 plus Â£100 over a year.

If itâ€™s Â£20 a pop and you play once a week thatâ€™s still Â£1100 with the fee.

Just askin
		
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Always amazes me just how much people have to pay even for 'cheap' golf in some parts of the country.

As much as I enjoy the game there is no way I play enough to justify a membership of 1K or above.


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 12, 2019)

my fees this year will be around Â£1300 [june] but i can pay it with a DD monthly so it dosent incur a huge sum to find once a year. 
 im sure most places do this now as a full lump in one go is not really a goer for most im sure.


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## Imurg (Jan 12, 2019)

Norrin Radd said:



			my fees this year will be around Â£1300 [june] but i can pay it with a DD monthly so it dosent incur a huge sum to find once a year.
im sure most places do this now as a full lump in one go is not really a goer for most im sure.
		
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It is if you've been stashing the cash for a while..


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 12, 2019)

Imurg said:



			It is if you've been stashing the cash for a while..

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if i stash cash her indoors has got a nose for where it is stashed and as if by magic she has new shoes and matching handbag.


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## Imurg (Jan 12, 2019)

Norrin Radd said:



			if i stash cash her indoors has got a nose for where it is stashed and as if by magic she has new shoes and matching handbag.
		
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You need a plan


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Fair enough some of these clubs are successful, but at some point their ageing membership will not be able to sustain their club on their terms. And while they are entitled to run their own affairs, they are harmful to the image of the game.

Look at Muirfield, they were broadly of the view that they could continue as a Gentlemen's club until the R&A stated they would be off the Open Rota. At that point the finances were going to change considerably for them, as well as no doubt the prestige of hosting the Open and they got over the hurdle at the 2nd time of asking. I'm sure it is still as elitist as ever (which is just as great a crime as being sexist) and while they are entitled to run their club how they want, it doesn't mean they are entitled to host the Open there and for a week in July, have the golfing focus on a stuffy Gentleman's club who are pretty much exclusively open to white upper class males.

I personally would like to see some minimum thresholds for clubs on the Open rota. In terms of a minimum number of tee times each week for visitors (at a sensible rate) and access to membership for all residents who live in the area of the club, obviously subject to a cap.
		
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Why do you think there are just old people there ? 

These private members ( exclusive) clubs will continue to have their appeal - the course will attract people and members and that wonâ€™t change , even through recessions and slumps these courses still stay strong 

Why should these clubs be subjected to thresholds and caps ? They are doing really well as clubs so why do they need to change ?


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## woofers (Jan 12, 2019)

Homer said:



			But they donâ€™t want to just play it at St Andrews!

You can get on all of them for a sensible rate anyway already too.
		
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2019 Visitor Fees:
Royal Liverpool    Â£200
Royal Lytham      Â£200
Royal Birkdale     Â£235
Royal St Georges Â£225
Royal Troon        Â£250
Carnoustie          Â£210
Muirfield             Â£250
Turnberry           Â£200
Royal Portrush     Â£220
St Andrews         Â£190


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## Homer (Jan 12, 2019)

woofers said:



			2019 Visitor Fees:
Royal Liverpool    Â£200
Royal Lytham      Â£200
Royal Birkdale     Â£235
Royal St Georges Â£225
Royal Troon        Â£250
Carnoustie          Â£210
Muirfield             Â£250
Turnberry           Â£200
Royal Portrush     Â£220
St Andrews         Â£190
		
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Donâ€™t see any problem with any of them - also lower rates in shoulder periods and winter. RStG is only Â£125 and they do a great group rate with lunch.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

woofers said:



			2019 Visitor Fees:
Royal Liverpool    Â£200
Royal Lytham      Â£200
Royal Birkdale     Â£235
Royal St Georges Â£225
Royal Troon        Â£250
Carnoustie          Â£210
Muirfield             Â£250
Turnberry           Â£200
Royal Portrush     Â£220
St Andrews         Â£190
		
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Played a few of them but never played the full fee , always ways to play the best courses at a good rate but even then as with club membership costs - all down to how you can justify the cost to yourself , if you can afford it then you will pay whatâ€™s needed if you want to play the top courses


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## Oddsocks (Jan 12, 2019)

When will clubs realise that there needs to be a membership package for people who can only get out once a week , normally on a weekend!

When clubs Taylor a package to suit this golfer then they will see a HUGE increase in memberships and a large reduction in nomads


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			When will clubs realise that there needs to be a membership package for people who can only get out once a week , normally on a weekend!

When clubs Taylor a package to suit this golfer then they will see a HUGE increase in memberships and a large reduction in nomads
		
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Never going to happen because they would lose a dramatic amount of funds - itâ€™s the busiest prime time of the week , if you offer weekend only membership then I suspect 60/70% of people would take it up - just think of all that money lost. Itâ€™s not a workable financial model to have weekend only membership


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## Oddsocks (Jan 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Never going to happen because they would lose a dramatic amount of funds - itâ€™s the busiest prime time of the week , if you offer weekend only membership then I suspect 60/70% of people would take it up - just think of all that money lost. Itâ€™s not a workable financial model to have weekend only membership
		
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There should at least be a reduction in weekend only, similar to that of a 5 day member.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			There should at least be a reduction in weekend only, similar to that of a 5 day member.
		
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Why ? Itâ€™s the prime time membership the course is normally rammed , no greenkeeprs working , main comps etc - itâ€™s the main time for everyone to play. A club isnâ€™t going to financially hamper themselves


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

Unusually I'm firmly in the same camp as LP. Clubs would lose a fortune in membership fees as everyone migrated to a weekend only membership.

Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

If you can only golf one day a week I would question the value and what I get out of a membership and see if a nomad status playing when and where I want would be more beneficial to my lifestyle.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 12, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Unusually I'm firmly in the same camp as LP. Clubs would lose a fortune in membership fees as everyone migrated to a weekend only membership.

Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

If you can only golf one day a week I would question the value and what I get out of a membership and see if a nomad status playing when and where I want would be more beneficial to my lifestyle.
		
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Iâ€™m in a catch 22.  I love the people I play with in our roll up but the fact remains that once a week golf is the best I will see for at least a year and what has been the last two years.

This is what brings me to my previous statement: is my club better off losing a once a week golfer at Â£1300 a year because nomad is better for them or retaining a 700/800 weekend only golfer?

Itâ€™s a chicken and eggs situation and I know for a fact we have lost members in the past who are in the same boat


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## KenL (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Fair enough some of these clubs are successful, but at some point their ageing membership will not be able to sustain their club on their terms. And while they are entitled to run their own affairs, they are harmful to the image of the game.

Look at Muirfield, they were broadly of the view that they could continue as a Gentlemen's club until the R&A stated they would be off the Open Rota. At that point the finances were going to change considerably for them, as well as no doubt the prestige of hosting the Open and they got over the hurdle at the 2nd time of asking. I'm sure it is still as elitist as ever (which is just as great a crime as being sexist) and while they are entitled to run their club how they want, it doesn't mean they are entitled to host the Open there and for a week in July, have the golfing focus on a stuffy Gentleman's club who are pretty much exclusively open to white upper class males.

I personally would like to see some minimum thresholds for clubs on the Open rota. In terms of a minimum number of tee times each week for visitors (at a sensible rate) and access to membership for all residents who live in the area of the club, obviously subject to a cap.
		
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I have heard you need something like 25 letters of support for Muirfield.


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## ger147 (Jan 12, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			Iâ€™m in a catch 22.  I love the people I play with in our roll up but the fact remains that once a week golf is the best I will see for at least a year and what has been the last two years.

This is what brings me to my previous statement: is my club better off losing a once a week golfer at Â£1300 a year because nomad is better for them or retaining a 700/800 weekend only golfer?

Itâ€™s a chicken and eggs situation and I know for a fact we have lost members in the past who are in the same boat
		
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They are better losing a once a week golfer at Â£1,300 per year than having the vast majority of their membership flip to a weekend only membership at Â£7/800 per year. The club would be making a loss for every 2 members that switched to save 1 once a week guy, would be absolute madness for the club to do so.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

KenL said:



			I have heard you need something like 25 letters of support for Muirfield.
		
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Good, guess I better trim 10 of my supporters back then, don't want to appear overly keen!


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## Parsaregood (Jan 12, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			Iâ€™m in a catch 22.  I love the people I play with in our roll up but the fact remains that once a week golf is the best I will see for at least a year and what has been the last two years.

This is what brings me to my previous statement: is my club better off losing a once a week golfer at Â£1300 a year because nomad is better for them or retaining a 700/800 weekend only golfer?

Itâ€™s a chicken and eggs situation and I know for a fact we have lost members in the past who are in the same boat
		
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They are better losing the member, too many others would try and follow suit. If you don't have the adequate time to get value out of a membership you'd be better playing a public track or getting a public course season ticket


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## Grant85 (Jan 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you think there are just old people there ?

These private members ( exclusive) clubs will continue to have their appeal - the course will attract people and members and that wonâ€™t change , even through recessions and slumps these courses still stay strong

Why should these clubs be subjected to thresholds and caps ? They are doing really well as clubs so why do they need to change ?
		
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I didnâ€™t say they should be subjected to thresholds and caps, I said the Open venues should adhere to higher standards.

Obviously itâ€™s a different world down there and land being far more valuable, itâ€™s no surprise that there is more of an American model starting to form. In my opinion, not great for the game of golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			Iâ€™m in a catch 22.  I love the people I play with in our roll up but the fact remains that once a week golf is the best I will see for at least a year and what has been the last two years.

This is what brings me to my previous statement: is my club better off losing a once a week golfer at Â£1300 a year because nomad is better for them or retaining a 700/800 weekend only golfer?

Itâ€™s a chicken and eggs situation and I know for a fact we have lost members in the past who are in the same boat
		
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Imagine 700/800 weekend only golfers and how busy that course is going to be ?

The club is better of losing the odd member as opposed to losing the thousands of pounds they would do if they offered weekend only membership 

As an example if my club gave a weekend membership of the same price at 5 day thatâ€™s about Â£200 less per member and you would prob see 100-150 take it up , thatâ€™s going to be anywhere between Â£20k and Â£30k of lost fees - thatâ€™s a big hit on most clubs budgets thatâ€™s going to affect the course.


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## Parsaregood (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I didnâ€™t say they should be subjected to thresholds and caps, I said the Open venues should adhere to higher standards.

Obviously itâ€™s a different world down there and land being far more valuable, itâ€™s no surprise that there is more of an American model starting to form. In my opinion, not great for the game of golf.
		
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Higher standards of what, the elite clubs and courses are able to keep them in such good condition because of higher fees, they have the membership they want, their membership will always have a waiting list so why shouldn't they choose who they wish to be a member, it's not as if they are going to run out of guys wanting to be members


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I didnâ€™t say they should be subjected to thresholds and caps, I said the Open venues should adhere to higher standards.

Obviously itâ€™s a different world down there and land being far more valuable, itâ€™s no surprise that there is more of an American model starting to form. In my opinion, not great for the game of golf.
		
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What higher â€œstandardsâ€ ? And why should they ? 

Iâ€™m not sure what an American Model is in Regards membership ? Do you mean expensive


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## Oddsocks (Jan 12, 2019)

On a weekend only membership o would expect restrictions to make it viable for the club.

For example no majors and only say one comp a month for handicap maintenance.  Any majors and so on you would need to pay an addition green fee (gained revenue)


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## ger147 (Jan 12, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			On a weekend only membership o would expect restrictions to make it viable for the club.

For example no majors and only say one comp a month for handicap maintenance.  Any majors and so on you would need to pay an addition green fee (gained revenue)
		
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No such thing as majors in most Scottish clubs.  Would you accept tee time restrictions e.g. no teeing off before 12pm?


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## Grant85 (Jan 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What higher â€œstandardsâ€ ? And why should they ?

Iâ€™m not sure what an American Model is in Regards membership ? Do you mean expensive
		
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Do some research. In America, to be a member of a club as we would term it (i.e. with unlimited access to your course, competitions, handicap, trophies etc.) is probably in the range of $10,000 starting, with bug joining fees or buy ins. Most will have minimum spends on food and beverages ($100 pm), most will insist on caddies ($80 to $100) and might have a cart fee as well. A lot are now struggling and having to drop fees for younger people. 

The alternative is you play public courses or municipals. You don't belong to a club, can't really have a proper handicap or play in competitions.  Typically these will be $50 to $100 a pop and weekend rounds will take upwards of 5 hours as they are obviously a money making operation and try to get 4 balls of the 1st tee every 8 minutes. 

If thats the model that you think is healthy for parts of the UK, then it's going to be a pretty bleak existence for the weekend warrior living in the home counties. 

I meant higher standards in terms of accessibility. If you are an Open venue you should be more accessible or you can continue to do your own thing in private and not benefit from the massive public spectacle. This has improved in recent years, but still has some way to go. In my view, the R&A basically bowed to public pressure with regards to male only clubs and if the media hadn't made an issue of it, the Open rota courses would have continued as they had been. 

If you think elitism is good for the game of golf, then you are wrong and I would suggest you are part of the problem. Elitism does no good for the sport. It turns people off, it prices people out of the game and ultimately makes the game smaller and in time there will be a knock on effect on the sustainability of courses, tournaments, manufacturers etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Do some research. In America, to be a member of a club as we would term it (i.e. with unlimited access to your course, competitions, handicap, trophies etc.) is probably in the range of $10,000 starting, with bug joining fees or buy ins. Most will have minimum spends on food and beverages ($100 pm), most will insist on caddies ($80 to $100) and might have a cart fee as well. A lot are now struggling and having to drop fees for younger people.

The alternative is you play public courses or municipals. You don't belong to a club, can't really have a proper handicap or play in competitions.  Typically these will be $50 to $100 a pop and weekend rounds will take upwards of 5 hours as they are obviously a money making operation and try to get 4 balls of the 1st tee every 8 minutes.

If thats the model that you think is healthy for parts of the UK, then it's going to be a pretty bleak existence for the weekend warrior living in the home counties.

I meant higher standards in terms of accessibility. If you are an Open venue you should be more accessible or you can continue to do your own thing in private and not benefit from the massive public spectacle. This has improved in recent years, but still has some way to go. In my view, the R&A basically bowed to public pressure with regards to male only clubs and if the media hadn't made an issue of it, the Open rota courses would have continued as they had been.

If you think elitism is good for the game of golf, then you are wrong and I would suggest you are part of the problem. Elitism does no good for the sport. It turns people off, it prices people out of the game and ultimately makes the game smaller and in time there will be a knock on effect on the sustainability of courses, tournaments, manufacturers etc.
		
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Blimey thatâ€™s a lot to take in 

I donâ€™t recall when I said â€œelitism is good for the sportâ€ - if you would mind just finding that for me 

As for the American Model - I donâ€™t expect many clubs are anywhere near the same level of fees in the UK bar the top level clubs , even then some top courses are still under a grand a year 

There is plenty of choice around the Uk - private members courses , exclusive ones , pay and play , members courses owned. Y companies etc etc - there is plenty of â€œaffordableâ€ golf around the UK for everyone depending on their situation , I live 40 mins from London and have loads of options in the area depending on my budget 

As for Open course being accessible - I have played 7 of them with no issues at all , was able to book a tee as either part of a group or just a fourball, the only way which is hard to get to play is St Andrews but even then people still get to play it regularly 

There are lots of options for people who want to play golf in the UK - and there are also exclusive courses for the people that want that - and those exclusive courses do very well because the courses are some of the best in the UK 

To me at times you post a lot of paragraphs but donâ€™t actually understand. Suggesting that exclusive clubs will soon start to struggle shows a lack of understanding of the appeal of them.


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## Orikoru (Jan 12, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Fair enough, but presume you have to pay a green fee each time you play.

How much is this and how often do you play?

Coz if itâ€™s Â£15 a pop and you play twice a week , thatâ€™s Â£1500 plus Â£100 over a year.

If itâ€™s Â£20 a pop and you play once a week thatâ€™s still Â£1100 with the fee.

Just askin
		
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You are correct, and don't worry I have done the maths. But we don't want to play the same course every week. So yes being a member where I am and paying 20 a week on green fees works out nearly the same as one year's membership, but that assumes if I join the members course I literally just play that same course every week for the whole year, which I wouldn't want to do at all. We like to vary it up, play two comps a months and play at different courses on the other weeks.


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## woofers (Jan 12, 2019)

As stated here and I have seen on other threads in my short time on this forum, weekend only membership is a no no.
What is more viable is some form of flexible or credit membership, where the 'credits' are purchased up front and redeemed at different rates depending on the season / day / time of play.
Basically you pay for when you play, retaining club membership but possibly with some restrictions e.g. entering 'board competitions' or Inter Club matches...
These are being offered in various guises at clubs in my area.


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## Grant85 (Jan 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Blimey thatâ€™s a lot to take in

I donâ€™t recall when I said â€œelitism is good for the sportâ€ - if you would mind just finding that for me

As for the American Model - I donâ€™t expect many clubs are anywhere near the same level of fees in the UK bar the top level clubs , even then some top courses are still under a grand a year

There is plenty of choice around the Uk - private members courses , exclusive ones , pay and play , members courses owned. Y companies etc etc - there is plenty of â€œaffordableâ€ golf around the UK for everyone depending on their situation , I live 40 mins from London and have loads of options in the area depending on my budget

As for Open course being accessible - I have played 7 of them with no issues at all , was able to book a tee as either part of a group or just a fourball, the only way which is hard to get to play is St Andrews but even then people still get to play it regularly

There are lots of options for people who want to play golf in the UK - and there are also exclusive courses for the people that want that - and those exclusive courses do very well because the courses are some of the best in the UK

To me at times you post a lot of paragraphs but donâ€™t actually understand. Suggesting that exclusive clubs will soon start to struggle shows a lack of understanding of the appeal of them.
		
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With regards to the exclusive clubs struggling that was more to do with the traditional members clubs who still had the stuffy appearance and you could only get in if you knew a few members or had the right job or religion and went through an interview process etc. Accept the playgrounds for the well off may well be doing just fine. 

And yes, there is still a lot of choice for most in the UK. However probably that choice is diminishing in certain areas around the south east. 

Like I said, the American model is not something we want to go down and regular golfers (especially those in the SE) should be wary of legitimising these places by aspiring to play the likes of Wentworth and Loch Lomond etc. As I've said, accept they have a place and a right to exist and most do a decent job of keeping a low profile.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 12, 2019)

"The alternative is you play public courses or municipals. You don't belong to a club, can't really have a proper handicap or play in competitions. Typically these will be $50 to $100 a pop and weekend rounds will take upwards of 5 hours as they are obviously a money making operation and try to get 4 balls of the 1st tee every 8 minutes"
The vast majority of US golfers are not members of clubs, but they have proper handicaps managed by associations under the USGA. They play competitions in the same way as CONGU members in the UK.
It's easy to confuse the golf and country club approach with golf clubs; in many ways we are the odd one out in having golf clubs that are fundamentally for the playing of golf alone. These are very rare things elsewhere around the world where the club, country club or resort is far more normal. In the US they go even further and have full time retirement communities with golf as well (as much of Southern Europe is moving into as people are moving into their holiday homes on a more permenant basis!).

Oh, and we have 8min gaps for 4 balls day in, and day out....not saying it's good, just that it exists in normal clubs too!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			You are correct, and don't worry I have done the maths. But we don't want to play the same course every week. So yes being a member where I am and paying 20 a week on green fees works out nearly the same as one year's membership, but that assumes if I join the members course I literally just play that same course every week for the whole year, which I wouldn't want to do at all. We like to vary it up, play two comps a months and play at different courses on the other weeks.
		
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Thatâ€™s absolutely fine, but it blows your argument about it being financially based out of the water, 

It is clear that if you play the same course regularly (weekly) (especially dahn sarf) , then membership is probably cheaper than nomad golf.

Itâ€™s good to have the choice ðŸ‘


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## Grant85 (Jan 12, 2019)

woofers said:



			As stated here and I have seen on other threads in my short time on this forum, weekend only membership is a no no.
What is more viable is some form of flexible or credit membership, where the 'credits' are purchased up front and redeemed at different rates depending on the season / day / time of play.
Basically you pay for when you play, retaining club membership but possibly with some restrictions e.g. entering 'board competitions' or Inter Club matches...
These are being offered in various guises at clubs in my area.
		
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Completely agree with this. A good way of keeping lapsed golfers in the game and also introducing new golfers to the sport without coughing up a full years fees.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			With regards to the exclusive clubs struggling that was more to do with the traditional members clubs who still had the stuffy appearance and you could only get in if you knew a few members or had the right job or religion and went through an interview process etc. Accept the playgrounds for the well off may well be doing just fine.
		
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Those clubs are also going to be just fine because they come attached with a great golf course to them - if the course is that good people donâ€™t have issues jumping through hoops. There are plenty of courses that only allow jacket in dinning room etc etc etc - would love to be a member at them and these just arenâ€™t playgrounds for the rich. 




			And yes, there is still a lot of choice for most in the UK. However probably that choice is diminishing in certain areas around the south east.
		
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I donâ€™t think it is diminishing at all - there is loads of choices , courses all over the place from exclusive to pay and play council run. This forum has members from the varying courses in the South East and into the home counties and the M3 Belt 




			Like I said, the American model is not something we want to go down and regular golfers (especially those in the SE) should be wary of legitimising these places by aspiring to play the likes of Wentworth and Loch Lomond etc. As I've said, accept they have a place and a right to exist and most do a decent job of keeping a low profile.
		
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You mention SE again and the American Model - the only person that has suggested anything of the such is yourself - itâ€™s nowhere near that and wouldnâ€™t even get close. 

Golfers want to play the best courses they can - and people will always get the chance to play 99.9% of them.

It doesnâ€™t matter what the level of â€œexclusivity or Elitsmâ€ is if the course is of the top standard.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Completely agree with this. A good way of keeping lapsed golfers in the game and also introducing new golfers to the sport without coughing up a full years fees.
		
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These would obviously be good outcomes - in practice, as predicted by many, clubs introducing these have seen large numbers of existing members switch their membership category. Things will re-balance in time but there is scope for a number of significant problems to crop up in the meantime!


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## Dibby (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Do some research. In America, to be a member of a club as we would term it (i.e. with unlimited access to your course, competitions, handicap, trophies etc.) is probably in the range of $10,000 starting, with bug joining fees or buy ins. Most will have minimum spends on food and beverages ($100 pm), most will insist on caddies ($80 to $100) and might have a cart fee as well. A lot are now struggling and having to drop fees for younger people.

The alternative is you play public courses or municipals. You don't belong to a club, can't really have a proper handicap or play in competitions.  Typically these will be $50 to $100 a pop and weekend rounds will take upwards of 5 hours as they are obviously a money making operation and try to get 4 balls of the 1st tee every 8 minutes.

If thats the model that you think is healthy for parts of the UK, then it's going to be a pretty bleak existence for the weekend warrior living in the home counties.

I meant higher standards in terms of accessibility. If you are an Open venue you should be more accessible or you can continue to do your own thing in private and not benefit from the massive public spectacle. This has improved in recent years, but still has some way to go. In my view, the R&A basically bowed to public pressure with regards to male only clubs and if the media hadn't made an issue of it, the Open rota courses would have continued as they had been.

If you think elitism is good for the game of golf, then you are wrong and I would suggest you are part of the problem. Elitism does no good for the sport. It turns people off, it prices people out of the game and ultimately makes the game smaller and in time there will be a knock on effect on the sustainability of courses, tournaments, manufacturers etc.
		
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That's not true. Sure some clubs are like that, and then there are others at the opposite end of the scale. When I used to live in the US, I wasn't really into golf, but I was aware of one local club that offered a family membership for $660, that covered handicaps, comps and golf for the year for all members of a family who resided at the same address. At the other end of the scale, there was Ryder cup course in the general area, prices were not even published, but it was clear you had to pay thousands a month, plus extra charges like restaurant minimums, locker rates, cart boy charges etc.. 

The US membership model is pretty much the same as here - there are all different offerings to suit all budgets, with some regions e.g Florida and California are more pricey than others. However usually the more upmarket clubs are the ones that the members like to talk about a lot, and post about a lot online - who would have thought!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Completely agree with this. A good way of keeping lapsed golfers in the game and also introducing new golfers to the sport without coughing up a full years fees.
		
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A lot of clubs are now offering a credit based system where you can pay an amount to be a member and get points based on the fee paid which are then redeemed when the golfer plays. Naturally a weekend round is more points than say a midweek afternoon but it gives those who want a weekend only type of membership the opportunity to play when they want and have access to a handicap and comps. Once the credits run up they simply get topped up. I have a friend who was a member at Kingswood in Surrey and wanted weekends only and didn't play on a frequent basis. For him it worked out as a really flexible option


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## chellie (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			You are correct, and don't worry I have done the maths. But we don't want to play the same course every week. So yes being a member where I am and paying 20 a week on green fees works out nearly the same as one year's membership, but that assumes if I join the members course I literally just play that same course every week for the whole year, which I wouldn't want to do at all. We like to vary it up, play two comps a months and play at different courses on the other weeks.
		
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Curious as to why don't you want to play the same course every week? Conditions are never the same from one day to another so the course is never the same.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 12, 2019)

chellie said:



			Curious as to why don't you want to play the same course every week? Conditions are never the same from one day to another so the course is never the same.
		
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Tbf, I only pay Â£650 for a 5 day membership due to a work offer so can justify my weekend golf elsewhere as well as society and the meets from here, BUT i can see where he is coming from. I like my course, and have a good group of 8-10 people i'll enjoy a kcock with.  That said, if 6/7 clubs in the area did a joint membership that cost me Â£1200 instead i'd happily pay that. Variation isn't a bad thing in my opinion.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Tbf, I only pay Â£650 for a 5 day membership due to a work offer so can justify my weekend golf elsewhere as well as society and the meets from here, BUT i can see where he is coming from. I like my course, and have a good group of 8-10 people i'll enjoy a kcock with.  That said, if 6/7 clubs in the area did a joint membership that cost me Â£1200 instead i'd happily pay that. Variation isn't a bad thing in my opinion.
		
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I know the likes of Crown Golf do a scheme where you can play at any of their clubs and use the vouchers purchased as membership but I guess the question would come down to how adjacent these courses were for a golfer to be able to choose where to play and not rack up ages in a car to get there

I like being a member of my club but it's a double edged sword sometimes. Great for convenience, knowing people and getting a game etc, but I do wonder if playing the same course all the time can breed a form of familiarity where you know the yardages, trouble etc and so sometimes you may not give a shot the attention it deserves.

I think in time more and more clubs will recognise the benefits of a flexible membership scheme and take it up in some format or another.


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## Homer (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Do some research. In America, to be a member of a club as we would term it (i.e. with unlimited access to your course, competitions, handicap, trophies etc.) is probably in the range of $10,000 starting, with bug joining fees or buy ins. Most will have minimum spends on food and beverages ($100 pm), most will insist on caddies ($80 to $100) and might have a cart fee as well. A lot are now struggling and having to drop fees for younger people.

The alternative is you play public courses or municipals. You don't belong to a club, can't really have a proper handicap or play in competitions.  Typically these will be $50 to $100 a pop and weekend rounds will take upwards of 5 hours as they are obviously a money making operation and try to get 4 balls of the 1st tee every 8 minutes.

If thats the model that you think is healthy for parts of the UK, then it's going to be a pretty bleak existence for the weekend warrior living in the home counties.

I meant higher standards in terms of accessibility. If you are an Open venue you should be more accessible or you can continue to do your own thing in private and not benefit from the massive public spectacle. This has improved in recent years, but still has some way to go. In my view, the R&A basically bowed to public pressure with regards to male only clubs and if the media hadn't made an issue of it, the Open rota courses would have continued as they had been.

If you think elitism is good for the game of golf, then you are wrong and I would suggest you are part of the problem. Elitism does no good for the sport. It turns people off, it prices people out of the game and ultimately makes the game smaller and in time there will be a knock on effect on the sustainability of courses, tournaments, manufacturers etc.
		
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Some of us donâ€™t want to play with the great unwashed though so are quite happy with the status quote - as are all those clubs with full memberships.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

Homer said:



			Some of us donâ€™t want to play with the great unwashed though so are quite happy with the status quote - as are all those clubs with full memberships.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Why if I spray some Lynx and slap on a bit of Brut?

Might mask my unwashed aroma.

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Dave1980 (Jan 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Completely agree with this. A good way of keeping lapsed golfers in the game and also introducing new golfers to the sport without coughing up a full years fees.
		
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What would be any acceptable flexi membership? For example if your annual subs was Â£1200, would you pay Â£300 upfront and then a green fee of Â£15 or half the visitors green fee?


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## Orikoru (Jan 12, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thatâ€™s absolutely fine, but it blows your argument about it being financially based out of the water,

It is clear that if you play the same course regularly (weekly) (especially dahn sarf) , then membership is probably cheaper than nomad golf.

Itâ€™s good to have the choice ðŸ‘
		
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No. That's like saying "ah but if you sold your house, then you COULD afford it!" That would also be a choice.


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## Orikoru (Jan 12, 2019)

chellie said:



			Curious as to why don't you want to play the same course every week? Conditions are never the same from one day to another so the course is never the same.
		
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Christ, because that would be dull obviously. There are lots of courses near me that we like playing, sometimes you fancy playing a particular course for a particular reason, different challenges and so on. Some days you want an easier flat course, some days you want more of a challenge. Variety is the spice of life as they say.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Christ, because that would be dull obviously. There are lots of courses near me that we like playing, sometimes you fancy playing a particular course for a particular reason, different challenges and so on. Some days you want an easier flat course, some days you want more of a challenge. Variety is the spice of life as they say.
		
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I can sort of understand that. I got bored a few years back playing the same course week in week out and would enter Opens just to get away. I was sick of medals taking 4+ hours and sickened myself. I was questioning if I still liked golf which was crazy, I'd just got sick of the same bland mundane golf course I think is the honest answer. Not many people understood where I was coming from right enough so I don't expect you to get much slack or sympathy on here!!!

People just expect you to love your home golf course! 

Since moved on and love where I'm now playing, every day is a different challenge despite it being the same track. 

I think when you get to that stage of golf being a chore or you don't enjoy playing the same course then it's time to move on/branch out, reassess what your aims and goals are.


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## chellie (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Christ, because that would be dull obviously. There are lots of courses near me that we like playing, sometimes you fancy playing a particular course for a particular reason, different challenges and so on. Some days you want an easier flat course, some days you want more of a challenge. Variety is the spice of life as they say.
		
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Sorry, I just cannot comprehend the "It would be dull" argument. Unless of course it's a crap course. 







How can this be dull.  Oops, sorry for large picture size


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

Anything can be dull if it doesn't float your boat.


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## Orikoru (Jan 12, 2019)

chellie said:



			Sorry, I just cannot comprehend the "It would be dull" argument. Unless of course it's a crap course.







How can this be dull.  Oops, sorry for large picture size
		
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Over the course of a whole year I would definitely miss the variety of playing a host of different courses. No matter how good my home course was. It's like, I love pizza, but I wouldn't want pizza for dinner every day for a year would I?


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## Parsaregood (Jan 12, 2019)

Each to their own and all that, you can play loads of opens through the year for little money. Not sure id like not to be a member anywhere wouldn't really feel like a proper golfer i dont think, not having somewhere to go and play a few holes or practice for an hour, not for me


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## chellie (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Over the course of a whole year I would definitely miss the variety of playing a host of different courses. No matter how good my home course was. It's like, I love pizza, but I wouldn't want pizza for dinner every day for a year would I?
		
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Still can't comprehend. I could play our course every day of the year and not get bored with it.


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## shortgame (Jan 12, 2019)

chellie said:



			Still can't comprehend. I could play our course every day of the year and not get bored with it.
		
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Beat me too it, was going to say exactly the same ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Papas1982 (Jan 12, 2019)

chellie said:



			Sorry, I just cannot comprehend the "It would be dull" argument. Unless of course it's a crap course. 







How can this be dull.  Oops, sorry for large picture size
		
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Do you ever play away courses?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2019)

shortgame said:



			Beat me too it, was going to say exactly the same ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
		
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Have to agree. My course is parkland but we have an abundance of wildlife, decent facilities and a course which is more than challenging and interesting enough for me (especially off the whites) to try and tame on a daily basis. Add in the great group of friends I have up there to play with regularly and I can't really see why I'd not want to be a member there and be up there playing as often as I can. Sadly a stupid thing called work gets in the way or I really would almost live up there


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Christ, because that would be dull obviously. There are lots of courses near me that we like playing, sometimes you fancy playing a particular course for a particular reason, different challenges and so on. Some days you want an easier flat course, some days you want more of a challenge. Variety is the spice of life as they say.
		
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Indeed variety is the spice of life.  That's why I choose to play as many club matches as possible; small match fee to cover the cost of the food and a free round on an away course.  Home matches get to meet people from other clubs you'd like to play & pick up an invite as a member's guest.


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## shortgame (Jan 12, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed variety is the spice of life.  That's why I choose to play as many club matches as possible; small match fee to cover the cost of the food and a free round on an away course.  Home matches get to meet people from other clubs you'd like to play & pick up an invite as a member's guest.
		
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club logoed shirts are damned expensive though!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 12, 2019)

shortgame said:



			club logoed shirts are damned expensive though! 

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Naughty,  funny though. 

Orikoru, will you ever live that down? Worse things to be remembered for though


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## williamalex1 (Jan 12, 2019)

Gr


Grant85 said:



			Completely agree with this. A good way of keeping lapsed golfers in the game and also introducing new golfers to the sport without coughing up a full years fees.
		
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Grant, the best thing people can do is to start a monthly direct debit as soon as they pay their first years fees. OK you're paying in advance, but still better than paying the full lump sum every year. You really don't miss it , especially if taken from the joint account


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## DRW (Jan 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Over the course of a whole year I would definitely miss the variety of playing a host of different courses. No matter how good my home course was. It's like, I love pizza, but I wouldn't want pizza for dinner every day for a year would I?
		
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I can understand this completely and really enjoyed playing different courses, have done since starting golf. Could never imagine playing only one course for a whole year, even if that meant I just play the local council course for Â£8 just for a change. I like variety.

EDIT got nothing to do with quality of golf course


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## chellie (Jan 12, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Do you ever play away courses?
		
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Yes. To name a few: Royal Lytham, Trump Aberdeen, Turnberry, Carnasty, Castle Stewart, Dornoch, Nairn, Sunningdale (both), New Zealand, Alwoodley, Formby, Silloth


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## chellie (Jan 12, 2019)

Oh and both times at Royal have been FOC as once was a club match and the other was a Daily Mail Foursomes match


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 12, 2019)

shortgame said:



			club logoed shirts are damned expensive though! 

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Curiously our club don't insist on a club shirt for matches, one of the few things I disagree with at my club.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 12, 2019)

chellie said:



			Yes. To name a few: Royal Lytham, Trump Aberdeen, Turnberry, Carnasty, Castle Stewart, Dornoch, Nairn, Sunningdale (both), New Zealand, Alwoodley, Formby, Silloth
		
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Was your course closed on those days?

Purely playing devils advocate and said in jest mainly, but to claim you would happily play yours everyday. Would suggest you donâ€™t feel the urge to play elsewhere (like Orikoru). Granted I doubt very much if the courses he plays have quite the same allure as the ones you list (quality names drops btw)!

I think refusing to buy one club shirt has been jumped on too easily now. Nomads are a part of golf and clubs (maybe not exclusive ones) need them to survive. Thereâ€™s now shame in being one imo.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 12, 2019)

It's easy for people to mock from the safety of their keyboards.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 13, 2019)

DRW said:



			I can understand this completely and really enjoyed playing different courses, have done since starting golf. Could never imagine playing only one course for a whole year, even if that meant I just play the local council course for Â£8 just for a change. I like variety.

EDIT *got nothing to do with quality of golf course*

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Not for me, thank you; more than happy to play other courses but I'd always look for something at least as good if not better than my home course if I'm choosing to go away & pay a green fee.


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## patricks148 (Jan 13, 2019)

chellie said:



			Still can't comprehend. I could play our course every day of the year and not get bored with it.
		
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Same here, my course gives you something different every time you play. there are plenty of guys at the club that play no where else.. I didn't feel that way at a couple of other parkland courses I have been a member of.

I get to play a fair few different courses throughout the year


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## chellie (Jan 13, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Was your course closed on those days?

Purely playing devils advocate and said in jest mainly, but to claim you would happily play yours everyday. Would suggest you donâ€™t feel the urge to play elsewhere (like Orikoru). Granted I doubt very much if the courses he plays have quite the same allure as the ones you list (quality names drops btw)!

I think refusing to buy one club shirt has been jumped on too easily now. Nomads are a part of golf and clubs (maybe not exclusive ones) need them to survive. Thereâ€™s now shame in being one imo.
		
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I would still happily play ours everyday. Had the opportunity to play those courses I listed through the forum meets. 

Still don't get the clubs need nomads to survive argument and never will. A guaranteed income stream is needed to run a club. That is what a membership provide.


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## Wolf (Jan 13, 2019)

chellie said:



			Still don't get the clubs need nomads to survive argument and never will. A guaranteed income stream is needed to run a club. That is what a membership provide.
		
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I agree with you on this the argument for survival will surely always be guaranteed income from membership and in club spend, then followed up by smart marketing to bring in x amount of society days or run Open competitons then any nomadic fees would be used as extra profit. To run a business hoping a certain amount of nomads will just come through the door always seems odd to me as to many variables to predict a number of how many you'll get.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 13, 2019)

chellie said:



			I would still happily play ours everyday. Had the opportunity to play those courses I listed through the forum meets.

Still don't get the clubs need nomads to survive argument and never will. A guaranteed income stream is needed to run a club. That is what a membership provide.
		
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Good clubs will always survive off of of just their membership because they can charge top fee's and will be oversubscribed i'd imagine.  

Obviously in an ideal world all clubs would be full of members and not have space left for nomads, but i would imagine that 80% of clubs open their bookings to the public. I doubt very much they do that to "grow the game", they do it for money.


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## robinthehood (Jan 13, 2019)

A huge proportion of golfer are nomads,possibly never more so. it would be a mistake to not tap into that market.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I agree with you on this the argument for survival will surely always be guaranteed income from membership and in club spend, then followed up by smart marketing to bring in x amount of society days or run Open competitons then any nomadic fees would be used as extra profit. To run a business hoping a certain amount of nomads will just come through the door always seems odd to me as to many variables to predict a number of how many you'll get.
		
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I don't think clubs "hope" a certain amount visit. I'm sure clubs can use years of data t predict average numbers and work it into a business plan. Not many clubs will right off the opportunity to earn extra from nomads. They're a supplementary income, and a mainstay of golf now. Imo, if any club that doesn't currently have a waiting list decided to go it alone for a year. Simply members only and society days they'd be writing loads of money off, that imo is a far riskier business plan than accepting you'll get nomads visit.


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## Wolf (Jan 13, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't think clubs "hope" a certain amount visit. I'm sure clubs can use years of data t predict average numbers and work it into a business plan. Not many clubs will right off the opportunity to earn extra from nomads. They're a supplementary income, and a mainstay of golf now. Imo, if any club that doesn't currently have a waiting list decided to go it alone for a year. Simply members only and society days they'd be writing loads of money off, that imo is a far riskier business plan than accepting you'll get nomads visit.
		
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I don't disagree  that they are supplementary income and agree its a good revenue stream but to try to forecast using year on year figures imo isn't something a golf club can use accurately to predict or estimate a % income for a club based on nomadic Green fees. When you factor in weather changes, people having other choice etc it leaves far to many variables to predict income from these just because a certain amount was achieved in previous years. 

I've always thought smart business would be allocate costs according to current membership and revenue then use these extras to supplement and make improvements. To rely on green fees to form a part of clubs daily revenue streams seems a risky strategy to me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			I think in an interview situation you would have to say something pretty bad or express something not in the clubs interest to be rejected. I think there is a need for interviews and if people don't want to attend a 15 minute interview they really can't be very serious about joining
		
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I know a couple of clubs where a tattooed forehead or the wrong sort of handshake is frowned upon.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't disagree  that they are supplementary income and agree its a good revenue stream but to try to forecast using year on year figures imo isn't something a golf club can use accurately to predict or estimate a % income for a club based on nomadic Green fees. When you factor in weather changes, people having other choice etc it leaves far to many variables to predict income from these just because a certain amount was achieved in previous years.

*I've always thought smart business would be allocate costs according to current membership and revenue then use these extras to supplement and make improvements. To rely on green fees to form a part of clubs daily revenue streams seems a risky strategy to me*.
		
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I agree entirely, I don't know if many will consider them as a fixed income. Some will of course and the'll likely be the one's that hit the wall in tough times. That said, i reckon most clubs run on pretty tight margins and so whilst they may survive with just their membership revenue, for them to grow and thrive they need to make them self appeal to nomads and societies. As to weather affecting visitors, i'm sure seasonal variations can be accounted for, historical averages based on years of data will be used my all manner of businesses. All good businesses will have profit forecasts for good, bad and indifferent years. Ideally you'll make a profit on a bad year and then have plans how best to improve with the added finance of a good year.

I'll be honest, i'm not sure why society members seem to be regarded higher than nomads by some?


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## Wolf (Jan 13, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree entirely, I don't know if many will consider them as a fixed income. Some will of course and the'll likely be the one's that hit the wall in tough times. That said, i reckon most clubs run on pretty tight margins and so whilst they may survive with just their membership revenue, for them to grow and thrive they need to make them self appeal to nomads and societies. As to weather affecting visitors, i'm sure seasonal variations can be accounted for, historical averages based on years of data will be used my all manner of businesses. All good businesses will have profit forecasts for good, bad and indifferent years. Ideally you'll make a profit on a bad year and then have plans how best to improve with the added finance of a good year.

I'll be honest, i'm not sure why society members seem to be regarded higher than nomads by some?
		
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I'd hazard a guess they put more regard on them from a business point in that they probably get a lot of repeat bookings at similar times of year so can factor this in to budgets. 

From a golfer perspective of why they regard them higher I can only imagine that people do so because they assume all nomads are choppers who have no idea of how to play, etiquette, rules etc. If this is the case then sadly that says a lot more about the average club golfers assumption of outsiders even though they were once one themselves.


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## patricks148 (Jan 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't disagree  that they are supplementary income and agree its a good revenue stream but to try to forecast using year on year figures imo isn't something a golf club can use accurately to predict or estimate a % income for a club based on nomadic Green fees. When you factor in weather changes, people having other choice etc it leaves far to many variables to predict income from these just because a certain amount was achieved in previous years.

I've always thought smart business would be allocate costs according to current membership and revenue then use these extras to supplement and make improvements. To rely on green fees to form a part of clubs daily revenue streams seems a risky strategy to me.
		
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yes all true, but as had been discussed many, many times on here, the raise in nomad golf isn't the answer for golf clubs that's for sure. 

offering cheap golf to non members starts the slippery slope, all of a sudden guys who played less frequently get to thinking why pay membership when I can play when I like where ever I like for less than a membership. its a difficult one to balance for clubs and nomad golf isn't an option in some parts of the country.. I'd imagine there are not many nomads up my way, but then membership isn't excessive cost wise and it would be cheaper up here to be a member than a nomad if you play regularly. In the home counties ( well some of them) id imagine its easy and cheaper to not be a member, especially if you are not interested in competitive golf and having a handicap. I'd imagine there won't be many clubs that are offering Â£25 green fee will be doing that well and will be the ones struggling..... IMO of course


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## User2021 (Jan 13, 2019)

I love going and playing new courses.

However, would happily play the course I am a member of every day.
I feel the course is a good test to most abilities.
It hosts amateur events and doesn't get ripped up.
The course changes dramatically with the seasons and the weather etc etc.

Its in a wonderful setting, tee'd off yesterday at 7.45 as the sun came up. The place was magical, hundreds of deer wandering around, all sorts of different species of birds etc etc. Cold, crisp but lovely bright winter sunshine - what more could you want.

Only been a member a year, but can honestly say I now have made several hundred new friends, of which probably 50 are now very good friends. And that to me is what the "club" is about.
I can play when I like, play with some great people, go and use the range as I like or the short game area and best of all always grab a pint and a chat with like minded people.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 13, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Could start by lowering the prices. 

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One of the difficulties with this is a golf club acts like a fixed cost business. Whether you have 10 or 100 players a day the cost of staff, greenkeeping, pro. etc is the same. So a bit like hotels or airlines which have a similar model you need to make a choice. Either go for volume on the basis that any extra are all profit (visitors, societies or members) or go for exclusivity and attract enough people who are willing to pay the price. Getting caught in the middle is the problem. 

The are lots of clubs that can make the latter model work and many that can make the former work but as recent press articles show both can go badly wrong. As a member you have to decide which you want and can afford. I think the choice will get less over time as courses continue to close.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2019)

Always find it a bit odd when I read these threads about low membership. I just cannot relate to it. I know ave said it before and al say it again. Our club is proactive in getting members and the general public through the door. The letter below is the latest plaudit for one of our pros. Are clubs just sitting back and waiting for Mohammad to come to the mountain.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2019)

mikejohnchapman said:



			One of the difficulties with this is a golf club acts like a fixed cost business. Whether you have 10 or 100 players a day the cost of staff, greenkeeping, pro. etc is the same. So a bit like hotels or airlines which have a similar model you need to make a choice. Either go for volume on the basis that any extra are all profit (visitors, societies or members) or go for exclusivity and attract enough people who are willing to pay the price. Getting caught in the middle is the problem.

The are lots of clubs that can make the latter model work and many that can make the former work but as recent press articles show both can go badly wrong. As a member you have to decide which you want and can afford. I think the choice will get less over time as courses continue to close.
		
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Disagree, 100 golfers a day will cause considerably more wear and tear than 10 on the course, clubhouse an even areas like the car park.
Clubs who reduce green fees during the winter months are pretty foolish in my view.

One of my old clubs averaged over 200 players a day for the busy 8 months. That comes at a cost.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Disagree, 100 golfers a day will cause considerably more wear and tear than 10 on the course*, clubhouse an even areas like the car park.
Clubs who reduce green fees during the winter months are pretty foolish in my view.

One of my old clubs averaged over 200 players a day for the busy 8 months. That comes at a cost.
		
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Say the day rate is cheap. Maybe Â£20. Is club really gonna be worse (if it allows nomads for 100 days during the summer) with Â£180,000 in the bank?


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## ger147 (Jan 13, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Say the day rate is cheap. Maybe Â£20. Is club really gonna be worse (if it allows nomads for 100 days during the summer) with Â£180,000 in the bank?
		
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Just checking your sums. To get Â£180k in 100 days at Â£20 a round, you would need 90 visitors per day playing.

Where are you going to get 90 visitors a day from and when do the members get to play if 90 visitors per day are playing your course?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 13, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Just checking your sums. To get Â£180k in 100 days at Â£20 a round, you would need 90 visitors per day playing.

Where are you going to get 90 visitors a day from and when do the members get to play if 90 visitors per day are playing your course?
		
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I was simply using the numbers given by Doon (as seen on my post in which i respond). He says 100 visitors a day are worse than 10. He actually quoted 8 months too. So i guess Â£180k was me being conservative....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 13, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Always find it a bit odd when I read these threads about low membership. I just cannot relate to it. I know ave said it before and al say it again. Our club is proactive in getting members and the general public through the door. The letter below is the latest plaudit for one of our pros. Are clubs just sitting back and waiting for Mohammad to come to the mountain.
		
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On the whole I'd say yes they are. The better ones are proactive in a smart way, like your club. The others either sit back or are old fashioned in their approach, and so largely unsuccessful. That is my own experience. Be grateful you are at a good club


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## trevor (Jan 13, 2019)

Slightly  off topic but Iâ€™ve never worked out how a golf club knows when itâ€™s full. Who sets the limits? If a club has 500 members and someone comes along with his Â£1000 and asks to join are they going to say sorry weâ€™re full?


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## ger147 (Jan 13, 2019)

trevor said:



			Slightly  off topic but Iâ€™ve never worked out how a golf club knows when itâ€™s full. Who sets the limits? If a club has 500 members and someone comes along with his Â£1000 and asks to join are they going to say sorry weâ€™re full?
		
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Many say exactly that and the clubs that do operate a waiting list.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 13, 2019)

trevor said:



			Slightly  off topic but Iâ€™ve never worked out how a golf club knows when itâ€™s full. Who sets the limits? If a club has 500 members and someone comes along with his Â£1000 and asks to join are they going to say sorry weâ€™re full?
		
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It will depend on the type of club.

A members club will have a set membership, and everything will be openly accounted in terms of how many at any time, income etc

A proprietary will have somewhat more nominal numbers and, in the absence of a waiting list, the concept of a full membership will lie with the management.


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## shortgame (Jan 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			When you factor in weather changes, people having other choice etc it leaves far to many variables to predict income from these just because a certain amount was achieved in previous years.
		
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Agree. Add in neighbouring clubs undercutting each other offering cheap green fees (of which they only receive half and the intermediaries the other half).


trevor said:



			Slightly  off topic but Iâ€™ve never worked out how a golf club knows when itâ€™s full. Who sets the limits? If a club has 500 members and someone comes along with his Â£1000 and asks to join are they going to say sorry weâ€™re full?
		
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Yes. Potentially.  If the club is financially healthy.

There are only so many available tee times in a day.  I know a few clubs who are full who are having complaints from members who can't book tee times because all the slots are regularly full most weekends (especially during a mild winter like we are currently enjoying).

It's not just membership numbers it's the profile.  One club I mention has always had a full membership (450 or so) even with a sizeable joining fee, however whereas in years gone by a large % were infrequent players, currently the vast majority are very active.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 13, 2019)

trevor said:



			Slightly  off topic but Iâ€™ve never worked out how a golf club knows when itâ€™s full. Who sets the limits? If a club has 500 members and someone comes along with his Â£1000 and asks to join are they going to say sorry weâ€™re full?
		
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Our numbers are set out in the rules and constitution as to how many we can have in each section (male, female and junior members)


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## DRW (Jan 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not for me, thank you; more than happy to play other courses but I'd always look for something at least as good if not better than my home course if I'm choosing to go away & pay a green fee.
		
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I do not think like that, have played some 'rubbish' courses that I would love to go back to more than a number of the top 100 course I have played. I do like to have variety. Think I am much more of okis mind set with regards to like playing different courses .

Would not liked to have missed out playing courses like church stretton, Bamburgh, Kendal and Kirby Lonsdale that spring to mind and want to really return to but are far from top courses and rated worse than a few of the courses I am member at, I also travel down to Essex for a couple of days a year to play on as such 'poor' courses and wouldn't wish to miss playing them.  Everyone to their own


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## upsidedown (Jan 13, 2019)

On a slightly different tack I love being a member, never get tired of playing my home course  but yet still managed to play another 56 courses last year, benefits of semi retirement and being self employed. 
One of the benefits of being a member is the other members and the friendships and connections that come with that membership. We are currently sitting in a very swish 4 bedroom villa in Portugal courtesy of one of those connections and will be catching up with other members later in the week. I get my car serviced at Mates rates now and also have, without looking for them have gained another 10 customers to finance my away days. 
I'm sure I'm not alone and many other members across the country  who also enjoy members with benefits ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## williamalex1 (Jan 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Our numbers are set out in the rules and constitution as to how many we can have in each section (male, female and junior members)
		
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Same at our club, set at 500 full time members, but I doubt they would turn away a few extra, especially associate members.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 13, 2019)

DRW said:



*I do not think like that, have played some 'rubbish' courses that I would love to go back to more than a number of the top 100 course I have played.* I do like to have variety. *Think I am much more of okis mind set with regards to like playing different courses .*

Would not liked to have missed out playing courses like church stretton, Bamburgh, Kendal and Kirby Lonsdale that spring to mind and want to really return to but are far from top courses and rated worse than a few of the courses I am member at, I also travel down to Essex for a couple of days a year to play on as such 'poor' courses and wouldn't wish to miss playing them.  Everyone to their own 

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And how do I know if a course is rubbish; because I've been and played it.   

I have an open mind to playing any course; I'm a little more selective when it comes to paying for a green fee, as per the original post.


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## Grant85 (Jan 13, 2019)

With regards to getting more people on the golf course. 

St. Andrews Old Course has 40,000 rounds on it a year, even with every Sunday off. No doubt a lot of wear and tear and yes a lot of green keepers and ideal natural conditions for a golf course.  

But for the most part, members clubs with 400 or 500 members will have an empty tee for a lot of time during the week and Sunday afternoons. 

A golf course at a members club with decent sized greens, spending several hundred thousand om staff and maintenance is almost certainly being under utilised.


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## Slab (Jan 14, 2019)

chellie said:



			Curious as to why don't you want to play the same course every week? Conditions are never the same from one day to another so the course is never the same.
		
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For my experience and having moved from almost exclusively playing a single course, to rotating through half a dozen courses & no home course (with a different course almost every week) I didn't think i'd like the latter option but found I really enjoyed the variation much more than I thought I would (the travel is really the only downside)

The fundamental changes in design & environment from one course to another, including different grasses, fairways, greens etc (even different sand in the bunkers) makes for more of an all round challenge of the game. I don't doubt I'd be scoring better if all my rounds were at one course too as I'd learn all the course and weather variables from a single course and how to play in them much more easily than 6 courses
I know for the challenge someones 'home course is different everyday' (but its not really) As you say its typically just the conditions that change, so the wind might change direction on the odd occasion, it might be a tad warmer, wetter, the tees might go forward etc etc but inherently it is the same course with the same holes, same grass, same hazards etc etc same menu in the clubhouse even (without even considering the differences in links, parkland and the rest)

Due to a new course opening very near me this last 12mnths has seen about half my rounds played at this one course with the rest still spread around and while I never get bored, I do yearn for the other courses if I haven't been out and about to somewhere else for three or four weeks running

When I get back to the Uk I'll probably join one place (probably manage to drop the handicap too) but other than the odd day-out I'll likely miss out on this variety because I've paid a membership (and I'll gain the benefits of that membership) but I will lose out when it comes to the sheer scale of variation in the game


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## shortgame (Jan 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			But for the most part, members clubs with 400 or 500 members will have an empty tee for a lot of time during the week and Sunday afternoons.
		
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except it's not possible to get round for 18 holes in winter if you tee off in the afternoon.

Realistically you have from 8am or so until around noon.  Even at 8 min intervals that's 30 tee times.

With this winter being so mild and the membership so active, those 30 tee times are in huge demand every weekend.  Any additional members would mean more  (all paying hefty joining fees and subs) would be unable to play.

Simply put, the club is at it's limit - membership is always in demand and could easily attract more members (and visitors) but there isn't enough room.

Sure they could play a few holes in the afternoon but after paying for membership you'd want/expect to be able to play 18 holes and to enter comps.  I know I would.

There's 2 local clubs I know well that are in this envious position - one a members club with an outstanding course and another (proprietary) with great facilities (gym, spa, restaurants etc).


The members club accept it's full but us always considering it's options.

The proprietary club blindly keeps on adding members compounding the issue (but making a lot of profit).


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## Slab (Jan 14, 2019)

shortgame said:



			except it's not possible to get round for 18 holes in winter if you tee off in the afternoon.

Realistically you have from 8am or so until around noon.  Even at 8 min intervals that's 30 tee times.

With this winter being so mild and the membership so active, those 30 tee times are in huge demand every weekend.  Any additional members would mean more  (all paying hefty joining fees and subs) would be unable to play.

Simply put, the club is at it's limit - membership is always in demand and could easily attract more members (and visitors) but there isn't enough room.

Sure they could play a few holes in the afternoon but after paying for membership you'd want/expect to be able to play 18 holes and to enter comps.  I know I would.

There's 2 local clubs I know well that are in this envious position - one a members club with an outstanding course and another (proprietary) with great facilities (gym, spa, restaurants etc).


The members club accept it's full but us always considering it's options.

The proprietary club blindly keeps on adding members compounding the issue (but making a lot of profit).
		
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On the flip side is the same club solid with 280 players on a sunny Thursday in August, probably not and if not its under-utilized on that day just as it would be oversubscribed in your scenario 

As with most things its a compromise with a members club 'probably' erring on the side of caution (which leaves them missing out financially but with happier members, where a resort/propriety club on the other side of over subscribed 

The ideal would probably be a members club set up with the marketing infrastructure & wherewithal to shift the majority of the excess tee times in slack periods (which there are a lot of given the uk seasonality of the game)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2019)

You canâ€™t smash the living daylights out of a golf course packing them in from 8 till 4 each day - itâ€™s just not good for a course. They need breathing spaces, time for the course to recover a little , time for the greenkeepers to do work. We have quiet gaps during the week and we feel no need to fill them up with green fees. 

Those quiet times people know as well so can use them for a bit of single rounds or arrange matches when they know they wonâ€™t be held up etc - clubs donâ€™t need to â€œmilk the asset â€œ - and any decent greenkeeper will tell you that any course needs free gaps where the course has very minimal footfall on them.


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## patricks148 (Jan 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			With regards to getting more people on the golf course.

St. Andrews Old Course has 40,000 rounds on it a year, even with every Sunday off. No doubt a lot of wear and tear and yes a lot of green keepers and ideal natural conditions for a golf course. 

But for the most part, members clubs with 400 or 500 members will have an empty tee for a lot of time during the week and Sunday afternoons.

A golf course at a members club with decent sized greens, spending several hundred thousand om staff and maintenance is almost certainly being under utilised.
		
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the old course is basically subsidising the other courses in the links trust, so not a normal situation.


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## Slab (Jan 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You canâ€™t smash the living daylights out of a golf course packing them in from 8 till 4 each day - itâ€™s just not good for a course. They need breathing spaces, time for the course to recover a little , time for the greenkeepers to do work. We have quiet gaps during the week and we feel no need to fill them up with green fees.

Those quiet times people know as well so can use them for a bit of single rounds or arrange matches when they know they wonâ€™t be held up etc - clubs donâ€™t need to â€œmilk the asset â€œ - and any decent greenkeeper will tell you that any course needs free gaps where the course has very minimal footfall on them.
		
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My example was simply to compare capacity posted from the mid-winter example given to the high season 

Its absolutely fine if a members club doesn't want to fill the gaps but that in itself doesn't mean the course is not way underutilized in relation to capacity (and when we say 'gaps' it's likely only 40-50% of tee times are used in a good week)

Is there really that many clubs that wouldn't like to fill a few of those and still leave plenty time for the matches and practicing singles?


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## DRW (Jan 14, 2019)

Slab said:



			For my experience and having moved from almost exclusively playing a single course, to rotating through half a dozen courses & no home course (with a different course almost every week) I didn't think i'd like the latter option but found I really enjoyed the variation much more than I thought I would (the travel is really the only downside)

The fundamental changes in design & environment from one course to another, including different grasses, fairways, greens etc (even different sand in the bunkers) makes for more of an all round challenge of the game. I don't doubt I'd be scoring better if all my rounds were at one course too as I'd learn all the course and weather variables from a single course and how to play in them much more easily than 6 courses
I know for the challenge someones 'home course is different everyday' (but its not really) As you say its typically just the conditions that change, so the wind might change direction on the odd occasion, it might be a tad warmer, wetter, the tees might go forward etc etc but inherently it is the same course with the same holes, same grass, same hazards etc etc same menu in the clubhouse even (without even considering the differences in links, parkland and the rest)

Due to a new course opening very near me this last 12mnths has seen about half my rounds played at this one course with the rest still spread around and while I never get bored, I do yearn for the other courses if I haven't been out and about to somewhere else for three or four weeks running

When I get back to the Uk I'll probably join one place (probably manage to drop the handicap too) but other than the odd day-out I'll likely miss out on this variety because I've paid a membership (and I'll gain the benefits of that membership) but I will lose out when it comes to the sheer scale of variation in the game
		
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Probably sums me up my way of thinking about playing other course completely. Great post.

Did you used to live in the UK before ?, that's a big move to port louis


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## Slab (Jan 14, 2019)

DRW said:



			Probably sums me up my way of thinking about playing other course completely. Great post.

*Did you used to live in the UK before ?*, that's a big move to port louis

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Born and bred in Scotland, its only last few years I moved for work (looking forward to going home someday but for the time being its still hot and sunny here)


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## Grant85 (Jan 14, 2019)

Slab said:



			For my experience and having moved from almost exclusively playing a single course, to rotating through half a dozen courses & no home course (with a different course almost every week) I didn't think i'd like the latter option but found I really enjoyed the variation much more than I thought I would (the travel is really the only downside)

The fundamental changes in design & environment from one course to another, including different grasses, fairways, greens etc (even different sand in the bunkers) makes for more of an all round challenge of the game. I don't doubt I'd be scoring better if all my rounds were at one course too as I'd learn all the course and weather variables from a single course and how to play in them much more easily than 6 courses
I know for the challenge someones 'home course is different everyday' (but its not really) As you say its typically just the conditions that change, so the wind might change direction on the odd occasion, it might be a tad warmer, wetter, the tees might go forward etc etc but inherently it is the same course with the same holes, same grass, same hazards etc etc same menu in the clubhouse even (without even considering the differences in links, parkland and the rest)

Due to a new course opening very near me this last 12mnths has seen about half my rounds played at this one course with the rest still spread around and while I never get bored, I do yearn for the other courses if I haven't been out and about to somewhere else for three or four weeks running

When I get back to the UK I'll probably join one place (probably manage to drop the handicap too) but other than the odd day-out I'll likely miss out on this variety because I've paid a membership (and I'll gain the benefits of that membership) but I will lose out when it comes to the sheer scale of variation in the game
		
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I can see the logic here and if memberships were designed around access to multiple courses, I think more people would go for them. However, there would probably need to be a good portfolio of courses all of a similar stature and quality. 

That said, I think there is a different challenge to playing the same course each week. I used to play at quite a short course, with 8 par 3s. Most of them were strong par 3s with decent sized greens (by par 3 standards) but you would get into a bad habit of taking the same club up to the same tee each week, without accounting for wind / temperature or pin position. If you were only playing that course once a month, you wouldn't form the same habit and would take much more care over your club selection.


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## shortgame (Jan 14, 2019)

No doubt.  And the club does accept visitors and societies at *quiet* times but what they don't (thankfully) do is undersell themselves by flogging off very cheap deals. They know their worth.


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## Slab (Jan 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I can see the logic here and if memberships were designed around access to multiple courses, I think more people would go for them. However, there would probably need to be a good portfolio of courses all of a similar stature and quality.

*That said, I think there is a different challenge to playing the same course each week.* I used to play at quite a short course, with 8 par 3s. Most of them were strong par 3s with decent sized greens (by par 3 standards) but you would get into a bad habit of taking the same club up to the same tee each week, without accounting for wind / temperature or pin position. If you were only playing that course once a month, you wouldn't form the same habit and would take much more care over your club selection.
		
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Yeah there's a lot to be said for beating/bettering the same course in any condition. (I've a par 3 near me that I've hit everything from 8iron to driver on depending on wind/pin) though my comment was really an opinion on the question asked; why wouldn't someone want to play the same course every week


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## Grant85 (Jan 14, 2019)

Slab said:



			Yeah there's a lot to be said for beating/bettering the same course in any condition. (I've a par 3 near me that I've hit everything from 8iron to driver on depending on wind/pin) though my comment was really an opinion on the question asked; why wouldn't someone want to play the same course every week
		
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Yes - I think generally this is budget based and the fact that people pay an annual fee to access a single venue. Even if they can afford to play different courses, there is still the financial decision to be made every time you venture elsewhere. 

I'd reckon most people would play different courses each week if it wasn't a financial impact on doing so, even if their 'home' course was the best in the area. 

In the states, many golfers just pay to play each week so there is a culture there of constantly evaluating cost, condition, course, distance, time per round etc.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Yes - I think generally this is budget based and the fact that people pay an annual fee to access a single venue. Even if they can afford to play different courses, there is still the financial decision to be made every time you venture elsewhere.

I'd reckon most people would play different courses each week if it wasn't a financial impact on doing so, even if their 'home' course was the best in the area.

In the states, many golfers just pay to play each week so there is a culture there of constantly evaluating cost, condition, course, distance, time per round etc.
		
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In my case the decision to be a member only of the one club is definitely budget based especially with the cost of fees annually. Fortunately my club does have a number of reciprocal arrangements with other clubs meaning we can play there for nothing at certain times so we definitely have a degree of choice should we want it. I am restricting my ventures to other courses to club matches (if selected) and the 2019 GM meets at Sunningdale, The Addington and H4H/Hankley Common

For me, my course presents more than a stern enough test and I never get bored of playing it and I simply go out to play as well as I can on any given day. With reasonable practice facilities, there's more than enough to keep me occupied and I can't see why I'd want to pay to join another club locally


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## Italian outcast (Feb 20, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			I'm hoping to join my local club over here (as in my signature) after playing a bit last year as a guest
Going down later this month to get details about likelihood and process (and fees) don't know about joining fees here
I've played with a few members and all seemed friendly and welcoming
Interview in Italian would be interesting (mines mediocre at best at the moment) - and European clubs have additional things (maybe even a round with the pro or senior member)
		
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In follow up to an earlier post -  I finally joined the local course over here in Italy as a full member
Process could not have been easier - no interview or even talking to a playing member - more or less hand over the money (at least there was no joining fee) + join the Italian Golf Federation

Need to have some form of session with the pro before i can play in any competition - 30 minutes on the range I think - hope there is not a rules test in there

Then I think I start with an EGA handicap of 54
I assume I can then play in QF's over the next few weeks - not sure how many I need to play as a minimum to allow me to establish something a bit more realistic


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## Crazyface (Feb 20, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			In follow up to an earlier post -  I finally joined the local course over here in Italy as a full member
Process could not have been easier - no interview or even talking to a playing member - more or less hand over the money (at least there was no joining fee) + join the Italian Golf Federation

Need to have some form of session with the pro before i can play in any competition - 30 minutes on the range I think - hope there is not a rules test in there

Then I think I start with an EGA handicap of 54
I assume I can then play in QF's over the next few weeks - not sure how many I need to play as a minimum to allow me to establish something a bit more realistic 

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You'll get you handicap after you've played 3 QF rounds. 

What was the cost to join if you don't mind me asking?


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			You'll get you handicap after you've played 3 QF rounds.

What was the cost to join if you don't mind me asking?
		
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What on earth do you base this on? To my mind its wrong on both reference points - its 1 round rather than 3 and won't be whatever is indicated by a QF round either.


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## Bxm Foxy (Feb 20, 2019)

Apologies If it's been mentioned before, the club I used to be a member at is an 1895 club. A really good reciprocal arrangement with other 1895 clubs worldwide.


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2019)

with an ageing population, I'm still not sure why clubs continue to reduce membership fees for under 40's. clubs IMO should be targeting older people,who have  more time more money.
i wasn't the slightest bit interested in playing when i was under 40 and i can't be an isolated case.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			What on earth do you base this on? To my mind its wrong on both reference points - its 1 round rather than 3 and won't be whatever is indicated by a QF round either.
		
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Duncan, without sounding thick ( again). What is the criteria to getting a hcap. I thought when you started from scratch/ the beginning ðŸ˜‰Bob, it was three rounds and the best score from those with a bit of fettling.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I thought *when you started from scratch* it was three rounds and the best score from those with a bit of fettling.
		
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The pedants' heads will be exploding


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2019)

bobmac said:



			The pedants' heads will be exploding 

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Just seen it ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Duncan, without sounding thick ( again). What is the criteria to getting a hcap. I thought when you started from scratch/ the beginning ðŸ˜‰Bob, it was three rounds and the best score from those with a bit of fettling.
		
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The criteria will be as laid down from time to time by the issuing authority.
In this instance that is the EGA who are responsible for handicapping for clubs in the Italian Golf Federation, as laid out in the post.
Their current basis is laid out in section 3.11 of their manual.
They work from 18 holes of scores played under handicap conditions (if you only play 9 holes they will still allocate a handicap using the 9 hole stableford adjustment system)...and away you go.
Get them in, get them started and let the enjoyment begin ðŸ˜Ž


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			The criteria will be as laid down from time to time by the issuing authority.
In this instance that is the EGA who are responsible for handicapping for clubs in the Italian Golf Federation, as laid out in the post.
Their current basis is laid out in section 3.11 of their manual.
They work from 18 holes of scores played under handicap conditions (if you only play 9 holes they will still allocate a handicap using the 9 hole stableford adjustment system)...and away you go.
Get them in, get them started and let the enjoyment begin ðŸ˜Ž
		
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Cheers me man. ðŸ‘


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Duncan, without sounding thick ( again). What is the criteria to getting a hcap. I thought when you started from scratch/ the beginning ðŸ˜‰Bob, it was three rounds and the best score from those with a bit of fettling.
		
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_''You will need to submit sufficient cards to provide scores for 54 holes of golf, which must be  9 hole or 18 hole scores. Once you have submitted these scores  your Handicap Committee will allot you a handicap.''_


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2019)

bobmac said:



_''You will need to submit sufficient cards to provide scores for 54 holes of golf, which must be  9 hole or 18 hole scores. Once you have submitted these scores  your Handicap Committee will allot you a handicap.''_

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That would be for a CONGU handicap...the EGA don't do it that way.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2019)

Apologies, I thought Tashy was asking about a Congu h/cap


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## williamalex1 (Feb 20, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Apologies, I thought Tashy was asking about a Congu h/cap
		
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The OP stays in Italy, not sure if EGA or CONGU rules will relevant be there, will they ?.


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## Italian outcast (Feb 20, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			In follow up to an earlier post -  I finally joined the local course over here in Italy as a full member
Process could not have been easier - no interview or even talking to a playing member - more or less hand over the money (at least there was no joining fee) + join the Italian Golf Federation

Need to have some form of session with the pro before i can play in any competition - 30 minutes on the range I think - hope there is not a rules test in there

Then I think I start with an EGA handicap of 54
I assume I can then play in QF's over the next few weeks - not sure how many I need to play as a minimum to allow me to establish something a bit more realistic 

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Crazyface said:



			You'll get you handicap after you've played 3 QF rounds.

What was the cost to join if you don't mind me asking?
		
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No joining fee - annual membership is 1,300 Euros (plus various add-ons for personal locker and club storage)
Pricey but it's Italy where golf is more expensive (plus I'm remarkably cheap in my vices) - its roughly equivalent to the annual cat & dog grooming fees!




duncan mackie said:



			What on earth do you base this on? To my mind its wrong on both reference points - its 1 round rather than 3 and won't be whatever is indicated by a QF round either.
		
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Tashyboy said:



			Duncan, without sounding thick ( again). What is the criteria to getting a hcap. I thought when you started from scratch/ the beginning ðŸ˜‰Bob, it was three rounds and the best score from those with a bit of fettling.
		
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bobmac said:



			The pedants' heads will be exploding 

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Tashyboy said:



			Just seen it ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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duncan mackie said:



			The criteria will be as laid down from time to time by the issuing authority.
In this instance that is the EGA who are responsible for handicapping for clubs in the Italian Golf Federation, as laid out in the post.
Their current basis is laid out in section 3.11 of their manual.
They work from 18 holes of scores played under handicap conditions (if you only play 9 holes they will still allocate a handicap using the 9 hole stableford adjustment system)...and away you go.
Get them in, get them started and let the enjoyment begin ðŸ˜Ž
		
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williamalex1 said:



			The OP stays in Italy, not sure if EGA or CONGU rules will relevant be there, will they ?.
		
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In reply to all of this - yes I am effectively starting from scratch (last official hcp was as a Junior at Bellshill circa 1981) - an Italian based hcp is long overdue
NB they did ask if I had any paperwork from my last handicap - williamalex - can you ask at the club if they still have mine stored anywhere 

It was all confusing to me what may be required - I had also assumed it would be 3 rounds but it does seem from the EGA literature it may be just one round (and perhaps just one 9-hole round) as an initial allocation
It is a 9-hole course (par 30 - six par 3s and three par 4's - CR = 31, SL=113) - 2 of the par 3's are 200 yards uphill (one with a lake at the front left!!)

I will just go with it - the main thing is to get a number to work with (and enjoy I guess)
My last two 9-hole rounds - played deliberately off the back tees were 38 and 36 - but I don't want to start '_beginning to believe'_ on this basis
Lets see what the golf-gods shall bestow


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## Fish (Feb 20, 2019)

Dave1980 said:



			With a lot of clubs reporting dips in membership or having capacity to allow more members, are you clubs doing anything to attract new members? 

If not what do you think they should be doing?
		
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We donâ€™t do anything actively, we are attracting new members consistently from neighbouring clubs due to the quality of the course, which I know will be subjective, plus also because of issues (problems) at those clubs that they donâ€™t feel will change, and so naturally move.

Although we are slightly just under our full allocation, our 7-day membership is full imo as the course is becoming congested at times and booking in for comps has become a race at the time the Comp opens to get a suitable tee time. 

Our categories are unbalanced, in that, as social members, seniors and 5-day members pass on or leave, the new members to replace them have all been 7-day members, so it looks like we will have to restrict that category on its own. 

The only thing we did in the last 12 - 18 months, which has divided opinion massively, has been the removal of our joining fee.


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## Boabski (Feb 20, 2019)

a few things have led to the declining trend of membership,
Increase in cost for membership 
time consuming , 18 holes take too long
Smoking bans
alcohol reduction, cant have a pint anymore before you leave , you will be over the limit 
no juniors coming through, they would rather play online golf on the computer


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## Oldham92 (Feb 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			with an ageing population, I'm still not sure why clubs continue to reduce membership fees for under 40's. clubs IMO should be targeting older people,who have  more time more money.
i wasn't the slightest bit interested in playing when i was under 40 and i can't be an isolated case.
		
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So you can't figure out why it benefits a club to get a potential lifetime member in their 20s instead of one in their 60s?

Also as you've said older people have more time, so they can use the course more often. More use = more upkeep cost.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 20, 2019)

Oldham92 said:



			So you can't figure out why it benefits a club to get a potential lifetime member in their 20s instead of one in their 60s?

Also as you've said older people have more time, so they can use the course more often. More use = more upkeep cost.
		
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I think Patrick was meaning more reduced rates for mid week membership for older people, leaving weekends free for you young bucks.


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## Oldham92 (Feb 20, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			I think Patrick was meaning more reduced rates for mid week membership for older people, leaving weekends free for you young bucks.
		
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The post said 'I'm not sure why clubs continue to reduce membership fees for under 40s'


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## williamalex1 (Feb 20, 2019)

Oldham92 said:



			The post said 'I'm not sure why clubs continue to reduce membership fees for under 40s'
		
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Speck savers for me  
	
.


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2019)

Oldham92 said:



			So you can't figure out why it benefits a club to get a potential lifetime member in their 20s instead of one in their 60s?

Also as you've said older people have more time, so they can use the course more often. More use = more upkeep cost.
		
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all the under 40 are paying h half what a full member pays,give me 20 years of full fee against someone playing half until they reach 40 then give up  anyway, ðŸ˜ƒ or go to another club f or a cheaper deal


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all the under 40 are paying h half what a full member pays,give me 20 years of full fee against someone playing half until they reach 40 then give up  anyway, ðŸ˜ƒ or go to another club f or a cheaper deal
		
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Where can I play for half the fee until I'm 40, im 28 and pay 60% until I'm 30 then it's full. Might  give up my other course at that point but probably not


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## williamalex1 (Feb 20, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Where can I play for half the fee until I'm 40, im 28 and pay 60% until I'm 30 then it's full. Might  give up my other course at that point but probably not
		
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Where do you play Kiddo ? or is is a secret


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## HamiltonGuy (Feb 20, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			No joining fee - annual membership is 1,300 Euros (plus various add-ons for personal locker and club storage)
Pricey but it's Italy where golf is more expensive (plus I'm remarkably cheap in my vices) - its roughly equivalent to the annual cat & dog grooming fees!













In reply to all of this - yes I am effectively starting from scratch (last official hcp was as a Junior at Bellshill circa 1981) - an Italian based hcp is long overdue
NB they did ask if I had any paperwork from my last handicap - williamalex - can you ask at the club if they still have mine stored anywhere 

It was all confusing to me what may be required - I had also assumed it would be 3 rounds but it does seem from the EGA literature it may be just one round (and perhaps just one 9-hole round) as an initial allocation
It is a 9-hole course (par 30 - six par 3s and three par 4's - CR = 31, SL=113) - 2 of the par 3's are 200 yards uphill (one with a lake at the front left!!)

I will just go with it - the main thing is to get a number to work with (and enjoy I guess)
My last two 9-hole rounds - played deliberately off the back tees were 38 and 36 - but I don't want to start '_beginning to believe'_ on this basis
Lets see what the golf-gods shall bestow
		
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Apologies if itâ€™s answered already where In Italy are you? Was it the hill on 16th at bellshill that took it out of you and you decided to retire to sunnier climates


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## Oldham92 (Feb 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all the under 40 are paying h half what a full member pays,give me 20 years of full fee against someone playing half until they reach 40 then give up  anyway, ðŸ˜ƒ or go to another club f or a cheaper deal
		
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At my course there are two categories. Over 40 and under 40. Prices Â£600 and Â£790. I'm in the under 40 category and I wouldn't be getting a membership if it was Â£790. At Â£600 I will. That's 12 months of me playing that course where I can get used to the environment, and meet people meaning I'm more likely to renew the year after. It's common sense marketing really.


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2019)

Oldham92 said:



			At my course there are two categories. Over 40 and under 40. Prices Â£600 and Â£790. I'm in the under 40 category and I wouldn't be getting a membership if it was Â£790. At Â£600 I will. That's 12 months of me playing that course where I can get used to the environment, and meet people meaning I'm more likely to renew the year after. It's common sense marketing really.
		
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So what are you going to do when you reach 40?


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## Aussie Swinger (Feb 20, 2019)

Bxm Foxy said:



			Apologies If it's been mentioned before, the club I used to be a member at is an 1895 club. A really good reciprocal arrangement with other 1895 clubs worldwide.
		
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My old club, Mullion in the Uk was on the 1895 reciprocal scheme. I used it to play Ipswich a couple of times and saved myself a fair chunk in green fees. What was your club if you donâ€™t mind me asking?


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## Oldham92 (Feb 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			So what are you going to do when you reach 40?
		
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Have progressed in my career and be earning a higher salary, and not be saving for a mortgage deposit so I'll have more money to spend on a hobby.

Also worth mentioning that the younger members may be more likely to want the latest clubs from the big brands, and so could bring more money into the club through the pro shop.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 20, 2019)

HamiltonGuy said:



			Apologies if itâ€™s answered already where In Italy are you? Was it the hill on 16th at bellshill that took it out of you and you decided to retire to sunnier climates
		
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You pussies in Hamilton don't know what a hill is , BTW a few of your low h/c guys have returned to face the Hill at Bellshill after a couple of years exile in the flat wet lands .
Anytime you fancy a climb give me a Bell,


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## HamiltonGuy (Feb 20, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			You pussies in Hamilton don't know what a hill is , BTW a few of your low h/c guys have returned to face the Hill at Bellshill after a couple of years exile in the flat wet lands .
Anytime you fancy a climb give me a Bell, 

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Bellshill is a great course nothing quite as exhilarating as trying to drive the pond at 4 knowing if you donâ€™t the splash will wake up the local delinquents fishing for golf balls?! I do like bellshill all joking aside other than the hill at 16 where Iâ€™ve found a dead mountain goat or 2 percent 


Ps wetlands? Those days are gone that new drainage Robertson group paid for means the course is so dry we might need sprinklers


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## Reemul (Feb 20, 2019)

My club has multiple levels

Platinum - 7 day + reciprocals = Â£905
Gold - 7 Day - No reciprocals  Â£805
Intermediate plus (same as platinum for 36-40) Â£645
Intermediate - (same as platinum for 26-35) Â£505
Colt Plus - (22-25) = Â£345
Colt (18-21) = Â£195
Junior (under 17) =Â£25

Personally unsure why some one aged 35 pays Â£400 a year less than me, guy I work with, same job, same money, one less kid pays the Â£400 less than I do, we play together. Not sure what benefits im getting for the additional Â£400.


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## Italian outcast (Feb 20, 2019)

HamiltonGuy said:



			Apologies if itâ€™s answered already where In Italy are you? Was it the hill on 16th at bellshill that took it out of you and you decided to retire to sunnier climates
		
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I loved that hole - effectively no out of bounds and a holding green
T'was the 9th and 18th that always did for me
I'm in Bergamo (near Milan) most of my time - as in signature


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			I loved that hole - effectively no out of bounds and a holding green
T'was the 9th and 18th that always did for me
I'm in Bergamo (near Milan) most of my time - as in signature
		
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Ciao IO, had many a happy hour in Bergamo, love it up Bergamo Alto, the funicular railway was made in Ceriano Laghetto which is just east of Saronno. I have good friends who live there.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 20, 2019)

HamiltonGuy said:



			Bellshill is a great course nothing quite as exhilarating as trying to drive the pond at 4 knowing if you donâ€™t the splash will wake up the local delinquents fishing for golf balls?! I do like bellshill all joking aside other than the hill at 16 where Iâ€™ve found a dead mountain goat or 2 percent


Ps wetlands? Those days are gone that new drainage Robertson group paid for means the course is so dry we might need sprinklers 

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With all the trees you cut down global warming has shot up quite a bit lol,  only kidding mate . We play your senior opens and 4bbb comps every year and usually do quite well, we actually won it 2 years ago .
 I know your pro's dad Billy Wright quite well, plus a few of your low h/c players, always a pleasure to play Ricarton and come off breathing normally with a 66 . Anytime mate, we can play just the 15 holes if your old bones can't make the last 3   Billy.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 21, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			I loved that hole - effectively no out of bounds and a holding green
T'was the 9th and 18th that always did for me
I'm in Bergamo (near Milan) most of my time - as in signature
		
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Yes Ian, the 9th par 5 dogleg left with OOB all the way on the left, and the 18th uphill par 4 slight dogleg right with OOB all the way on the right. Or maybe the 4th a dogleg right with OOB all the way on the right .


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## Italian outcast (Feb 21, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Yes Ian, the 9th par 5 dogleg left with OOB all the way on the left, and the 18th uphill par 4 slight dogleg right with OOB all the way on the right. Or maybe the 4th a dogleg right with OOB all the way on the right .
		
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Exactly - i can still go OOB in either direction


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## Italian outcast (Feb 21, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Ciao IO, had many a happy hour in Bergamo, love it up Bergamo Alto, the funicular railway was made in Ceriano Laghetto which is just east of Saronno. I have good friends who live there.
		
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Ciao signore Tash
I love it here - truly beautiful and well connected
Lady outcast is from here so we moved over (from France) to be closer to her parents
We live just down the hill so look up to _citta alta _every morning - have to walk up the hill every day on _one_ of the dog tours (no funiculare on my side of the hill)


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## Bxm Foxy (Feb 21, 2019)

Aussie Swinger said:



			My old club, Mullion in the Uk was on the 1895 reciprocal scheme. I used it to play Ipswich a couple of times and saved myself a fair chunk in green fees. What was your club if you donâ€™t mind me asking?
		
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Wrangaton.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2019)

Italian outcast said:



			Ciao signore Tash
I love it here - truly beautiful and well connected
Lady outcast is from here so we moved over (from France) to be closer to her parents
We live just down the hill so look up to _citta alta _every morning - have to walk up the hill every day on _one_ of the dog tours (no funiculare on my side of the hill)
		
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Once went up there with a Kids football team before our flights back from Bergamo. Anyway we found the old opera house and had a mosey on round. One of the guys got up on the stage, he is a bit of a football hooligan. Anyway he starts booming out Shakespeare. It was electric, some of the Italians were shouting Bravo when he finished. We were wetting our pants laughing.


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## Crazyface (Feb 21, 2019)

Reemul said:



			My club has multiple levels

Platinum - 7 day + reciprocals = Â£905
Gold - 7 Day - No reciprocals  Â£805
Intermediate plus (same as platinum for 36-40) Â£645
Intermediate - (same as platinum for 26-35) Â£505
Colt Plus - (22-25) = Â£345
Colt (18-21) = Â£195
Junior (under 17) =Â£25

Personally unsure why some one aged 35 pays Â£400 a year less than me, guy I work with, same job, same money, one less kid pays the Â£400 less than I do, we play together. Not sure what benefits im getting for the additional Â£400.
		
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Whilst these things are in place I have decided to not join anywhere on full membership. And before anyone jumps in i'm on Â£12K a year before tax. Which is great in one respect as the tax man gets as close to nothing as can be from me, but means I have to be VERY careful how I spend what money I have for myself.


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## Britishshooting (Feb 21, 2019)

I'm a member at two courses. One is superior however has intermediate up to 30 years of age, it's therefore similar price for me to play there than a lesser course I'm also a member at. It also does the points system which works out cheaper still with the option to top up should you get on the course more than planned. These options have seen good membership renewals and encouragement of members from other local courses.

The second course which is the lower quality option has intermediate up to 26 years old, there seems to be a trend of members moving to courses which offer the higher intermediate age bracket once they reach 26. The only constant seems to be the pensioner bracket who reliably rejoin year after year.

If money was tighter I wouldn't be a member at the latter myself, however it's a decent enough course and is brilliant in terms of social between the members and it almost went under last year so I decided to re-join myself as that would be a huge shame.


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## Bigfoot (Feb 21, 2019)

I can see a club going under around here soon. We lost a nine hole course - Habberley and Burlish Park - both near kidderminster - over the last few years but others are going about getting new members in different ways.

One is trying a drop in membership fees but existing members will pay an amount more, if they don't get the required numbers.
Another is raising fees in order to pay for better quality of course. 
A further course had a meeting to get ideas but members walked out when the committee said no to all the ideas proposed by the members!!

It will be interesting to see who gets the required result.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Whilst these things are in place I have decided to not join anywhere on full membership. And before anyone jumps in i'm on Â£12K a year before tax. Which is great in one respect as the tax man gets as close to nothing as can be from me, but means I have to be VERY careful how I spend what money I have for myself.
		
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Amen to that brother


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## xreyuk (Feb 21, 2019)

Our club donâ€™t seem to care, fees have just gone up.


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## Grant85 (May 15, 2019)

Just to bump this as not seen it mentioned elsewhere, but Eastwood GC to the south of Glasgow appointed administrators this week. A proposed deal / purchase to keep it as a golf course fell through and they basically have no cash. 

Scotsman Story

Given the number of courses in the area (and in nearby Ayrshire) it's a very competitive location and I think it was inevitable that a course was going to go sooner or later. 

It seems that a lot of members left over the past year, with a big exodus when 2019 fees were due. Likely been past the tipping point for a year or two now. 

Pollok dropping joining fee possibly led the charge last year. Who I understand are now full and will be putting their joining fee back on. 

Hopefully if nothing else, this strengthens the position of other courses and they realise the seriousness of not recruiting younger people and encouraging people to take up the sport.


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## patricks148 (May 15, 2019)

Ive heard Stathpeffer now only has 25 members, not sure if this is true or not but they must be on their last legs. most of the smaller clubs are struggling.


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## Capella (May 15, 2019)

Are there fixed rules in the UK how many members a golf club is allowed to have? In Germany, according to DGV (the German golf association) a club is allowed 700 full members per 9 holes. "full" means full paying, junior members, long distance, green fee and secondary memberships don't count. Only few really reach that limit, but I know of one or two who built an additional 9 hole par 3 course to be allowed more members.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 15, 2019)

Capella said:



			Are there fixed rules in the UK how many members a golf club is allowed to have? In Germany, according to DGV (the German golf association) a club is allowed 700 full members per 9 holes. "full" means full paying, junior members, long distance, green fee and secondary memberships don't count. Only few really reach that limit, but I know of one or two who built an additional 9 hole par 3 course to be allowed more members.
		
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No there aren't, but many private clubs will have a max number for 7 day members so as not to crowd the course at the weekends and balance budget with course flow rates. Mine I think is about 450 7 day male members. Obviously you also have 5 day males, 5 and 7 day females and juniors as well.


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## Siolag (May 15, 2019)

My club allows 600 ordinary (7 day) members, and has a waiting list now.


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## Grant85 (May 15, 2019)

Capella said:



			Are there fixed rules in the UK how many members a golf club is allowed to have? In Germany, according to DGV (the German golf association) a club is allowed 700 full members per 9 holes. "full" means full paying, junior members, long distance, green fee and secondary memberships don't count. Only few really reach that limit, but I know of one or two who built an additional 9 hole par 3 course to be allowed more members.
		
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A lot of clubs will have it written in their documents that they can have a maximum of x number of members. But some clubs that are 'full' may create additional categories such as young adult, 5 day, temporary member etc. if they feel the course has capacity for more paying members.


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## Bigfoot (May 15, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Ive heard Stathpeffer now only has 25 members, not sure if this is true or not but they must be on their last legs. most of the smaller clubs are struggling.
		
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That's a great pity as I have enjoyed playing there a number of times. The members have been very welcoming and encouraged me to join in with their group.


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## Robster59 (May 18, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Just to bump this as not seen it mentioned elsewhere, but Eastwood GC to the south of Glasgow appointed administrators this week. A proposed deal / purchase to keep it as a golf course fell through and they basically have no cash.

Scotsman Story

Given the number of courses in the area (and in nearby Ayrshire) it's a very competitive location and I think it was inevitable that a course was going to go sooner or later.

It seems that a lot of members left over the past year, with a big exodus when 2019 fees were due. Likely been past the tipping point for a year or two now.

Pollok dropping joining fee possibly led the charge last year. Who I understand are now full and will be putting their joining fee back on.

Hopefully if nothing else, this strengthens the position of other courses and they realise the seriousness of not recruiting younger people and encouraging people to take up the sport.
		
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Now sadly confirmed
Eastwood Golf Club closes
I've not commented before but this has been coming for a while.  It was known they've been struggling for years and an EGM was called a couple of months ago as the club was on the brink then.  They closed on Thursday with the members playing their last round on Wednesday.
They've basically run out of money and, combined with falling membership, the club just became unsustainable. For a club that reached its 125th anniversary last year is a sad loss., for the members, and for those employed there.  And it's a salutary lesson for all the clubs in the area.  A club has to evolve in the right way to survive.


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## ScienceBoy (May 19, 2019)

I would love to be a member but golf takes far too long to play.

We need high quality, short and interesting courses. We donâ€™t need 18 hole â€œchampionshipâ€ courses with â€œUSGAâ€ spec greens that in the end are glorified fields.

Itâ€™s sad but some courses will close, we have too many like the above, itâ€™s a fact. 

Golf needs to be accessible, fun to play and take a reasonable period of time.

To do so courses need to be cheaper to manage, take up less space and be closer to the population they want to serve.

I see a future for 9, 12 or 14 hole courses if Golf can ever accommodate such a change.

Will 18 hole courses ever completely go? No, they shouldnâ€™t either, but the should be more room for alternatives to 9 and 18 hole courses.

9 hole courses also need to lose the stigma, they should be embraced rather than laughed at.


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## Reemul (May 19, 2019)

I have 2 club memberships at the moment.

1 is a 9 hole course par 32. Take around 75 minutes to do 9 holes, great for after work or a short time round. My other membership is at a full 18 hole course. Thing is I can get round there in 3 hours with my son which is great and even the 9 holes is 90 minutes. So the 9 hole membership is going in June.

I find it's about playing at the right time. Normally I play on a Sunday morning as it fits family life  but it's busy and can take a lot longer so we've started playing in the afternoons as it's got a nice pace to it.

Additonally playing 9 holes of the 18 still works, club are happy for us to play either the front 9 or the back if it's not too busy


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## Matty6 (May 19, 2019)

We now have a waiting list for male members. Plenty of spaces for womenâ€™s and juniors though.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I would love to be a member but golf takes far too long to play.

We need high quality, short and interesting courses. We donâ€™t need 18 hole â€œchampionshipâ€ courses with â€œUSGAâ€ spec greens that in the end are glorified fields.

Itâ€™s sad but some courses will close, we have too many like the above, itâ€™s a fact.

Golf needs to be accessible, fun to play and take a reasonable period of time.

To do so courses need to be cheaper to manage, take up less space and be closer to the population they want to serve.

I see a future for 9, 12 or 14 hole courses if Golf can ever accommodate such a change.

Will 18 hole courses ever completely go? No, they shouldnâ€™t either, but the should be more room for alternatives to 9 and 18 hole courses.

9 hole courses also need to lose the stigma, they should be embraced rather than laughed at.
		
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I can never see a time when you'll get 12 or 14 hole courses and to be honest by the time you've committed the time to play 14 holes you may as well play 18. Is there really a stigma towards 9 hole courses. Well designed with two distinct set of tees can provide a varied challenge and there are loads of great ones about. Didn't GM (or maybe someone else) do a feature on some of the best in the UK


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## Biggleswade Blue (May 19, 2019)

I think accessible 9 hole courses is a great way to play, and terrific for those who are time poor, as well as an easier access route for new and returning players.  It can of course be a loop of a 18 hole course, but perhaps a club can offer a reduced green fee for just 9 holes for visitors?  I don't think many do.

I also think that clubs with space could set up 9 hole par 3 courses to complement their 18 hole main course offering.  The 9 hole can be cheapish to play, no dress code, and becomes a gateway to the bigger game for those who want it, as well as a great way for members to practice their short game.  Would the costs of that be significant?  I wouldn't have thought so as they already are looking after 18 holes, but I'd be interested to know.  Then, make the clubhouse accessible to all, members, players, visitors, anyone who wants to, to buy a meal and a drink.

I'm genuinely interested to know why struggling golf clubs do not do this.


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## Slab (May 20, 2019)

Biggleswade Blue said:



			I think accessible 9 hole courses is a great way to play, and terrific for those who are time poor, as well as an easier access route for new and returning players.  It can of course be a loop of a 18 hole course, but perhaps a club can offer a reduced green fee for just 9 holes for visitors?  I don't think many do.

*I also think that clubs with space could set up 9 hole par 3 courses to complement their 18 hole main course offering. * The 9 hole can be cheapish to play, no dress code, and becomes a gateway to the bigger game for those who want it, as well as a great way for members to practice their short game.  Would the costs of that be significant?  I wouldn't have thought so as they already are looking after 18 holes, but I'd be interested to know.  Then, make the clubhouse accessible to all, members, players, visitors, anyone who wants to, to buy a meal and a drink.

I'm genuinely interested to know why struggling golf clubs do not do this.
		
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Perhaps clubs without space for an extra 9 could consider an offer of a 9 hole membership from their existing 18 holes (after all if clubs can offer 5 day membership instead of 7 specifically to accommodate folks who forfeit playing at weekends, why not offer 9 holes instead of 18 for those prepared to forfeit half the full size course) 
Make it the back 9 and for most of the year, even playing at weekends, it wont affect the folk playing full medals at many clubs


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## maxy33 (May 20, 2019)

Slab said:



			Perhaps clubs without space for an extra 9 could consider an offer of a 9 hole membership from their existing 18 holes (after all if clubs can offer 5 day membership instead of 7 specifically to accommodate folks who forfeit playing at weekends, why not offer 9 holes instead of 18 for those prepared to forfeit half the full size course)
Make it the back 9 and for most of the year, even playing at weekends, it wont affect the folk playing full medals at many clubs
		
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Totally agree with this.

I also think clubs need to be fairer about their pricing of 9 holes - a lot of the places I've asked have been full 18 holes price / 2 + a random amount!
I'd love to take my son for 9 most nights, and if it was about Â£10 I would, but it's usually more than that.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 20, 2019)

I think pitch and putt courses are the best way to bring new people into the game. 

On a different note, it is rumoured that Deangate Ridge may be re-opening, with something to do with an unknown covenant placed on the land when it was given to the council by the MOD requiring the land to be used for sport. As a result it's felt easier to keep it as a golf course.
Heres hoping


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## Grant85 (May 20, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I can never see a time when you'll get 12 or 14 hole courses and to be honest by the time you've committed the time to play 14 holes you may as well play 18. Is there really a stigma towards 9 hole courses. Well designed with two distinct set of tees can provide a varied challenge and there are loads of great ones about. Didn't GM (or maybe someone else) do a feature on some of the best in the UK
		
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I believe there is a stigma in that people tend to join 9 hole courses solely on a budget basis. And these obviously tend not to be celebrated courses or courses with a top designer. 

Completely agree with the point about 12 holes. I feel this would be the ideal number of holes in a lot of cases. 12 would be far better as people could play a lot more competition golf midweek. You could tee off about 7:30 / 8pm and get a medal round or a matchplay in. Guys with work / families could play a lot more 'proper' golf through May to September. 

Clubs would still have a good variety of holes with 12 but would have to maintain less land and fees would be adjusted. 




Slab said:



			Perhaps clubs without space for an extra 9 could consider an offer of a 9 hole membership from their existing 18 holes (after all if clubs can offer 5 day membership instead of 7 specifically to accommodate folks who forfeit playing at weekends, why not offer 9 holes instead of 18 for those prepared to forfeit half the full size course)
Make it the back 9 and for most of the year, even playing at weekends, it wont affect the folk playing full medals at many clubs
		
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Problem with this is it still costs the same to maintain the 18 holes and the key point is a club is limited by the number of guys on the 1st tee. So you would devalue 18 hole membership if guys are turning up and there 8 guys on the 1st tee playing 9 holes.


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## Slab (May 20, 2019)

Grant85 said:



*Problem with this is it still costs the same to maintain the 18 holes *and *the key point is a club is limited by the number of guys on the 1st tee.* So you would devalue 18 hole membership if guys are turning up and there 8 guys on the 1st tee playing 9 holes.
		
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Not really any different to having to maintain a course for 7 days for a group with 5 day membership
And as I suggested it would make most sense for any 9 hole membership to be restricted to the back 9 which would cut out any problem on the 1st tee


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## r0wly86 (May 20, 2019)

I don't think you will ever lose 18 hole course.

What may happen is that doing 6, 12, or 18 holes will become the norm rather than 9, or 18.

6 holes allows for a very quick blast around, doesn't take long at all and so clubs could run evening comps quite late into the year, 12 is a good amount, I often feel like 9 isn't quite enough sometimes but I don't fancy a full 18, 12 would fill that gap nicely. And then 18 holes for comps or those wanting a full day out


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## HomerJSimpson (May 20, 2019)

maxy33 said:



			Totally agree with this.

I also think clubs need to be fairer about their pricing of 9 holes - a lot of the places I've asked have been full 18 holes price / 2 + a random amount!
I'd love to take my son for 9 most nights, and if it was about Â£10 I would, but it's usually more than that.
		
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I am pretty sure we offer 9 hole rates these days after 5.30 which would be ideal for taking youngsters/visitors onto a course in the evening when it is quieter and get them into golf. 

I don't see pitch and putts as an answer. They take considerable space most clubs won't have and in my experience, a lot of council owned ones are never kept to a reasonable standard especially the greens. That said, places that do have them attached (Hoebridge being an example, Sandown Park another) have made them into good mini courses and perfect for younger kids in particular. If you can find one locally in good nick they would represent a cheap and easy to play introduction

Whilst I can see a logic to clubs offering a 9 hole membership, I fear many would be reticent as it is surely open to abuse. Who will ensure this category of member stop after 9 and don't play a full 18 (in the same way as do clubs check 5 day members aren't on the course at weekends)


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## Grant85 (May 20, 2019)

Slab said:



			Not really any different to having to maintain a course for 7 days for a group with 5 day membership
And as I suggested it would make most sense for any 9 hole membership to be restricted to the back 9 which would cut out any problem on the 1st tee
		
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It just defers the problem and you end up getting held up on the back 9, which is arguably even more frustrating.


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## robinthehood (May 20, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/48334699


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## Bunkermagnet (May 20, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I don't see pitch and putts as an answer. They take considerable space most clubs won't have and in my experience, a lot of council owned ones are never kept to a reasonable standard especially the greens.
		
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They dont have to be to a "good course standard", just being there and a place for non-players to grab an interest in the game at it's almost very thinnest tip. Sew the interest and enjoyment at an early easy stage, and then watch it grow. Without putting greens, crazy golf and p&p, golf will not get the amount of new players it will need in time.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 1, 2019)

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/golf-club-membership-2019-decline/

Not great reading.


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## 2blue (Nov 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/golf-club-membership-2019-decline/

Not great reading.
		
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Yeah...  shocking.... gonna take some turning around.....  radical thinking of some kind required... & I'm not sure the Trad Golf Clubs are capable of doing it.


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## patricks148 (Nov 1, 2019)

2blue said:



			Yeah...  shocking.... gonna take some turning around.....  radical thinking of some kind required... & I'm not sure the Trad Golf Clubs are capable of doing it.
		
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like everything else its all Labours Fault


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## upsidedown (Nov 1, 2019)

Not great reading but thankfully we seem to be bucking the trend as we are full for male membership with a waiting list and contemplating re introducing a joining fee .


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## Tashyboy (Nov 1, 2019)

upsidedown said:



			Not great reading but thankfully we seem to be bucking the trend as we are full for male membership with a waiting list and contemplating re introducing a joining fee .
		
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Think I am in the same boat as you re our club, however some players are still stuck in there ways. Don't just think the blame lies with clubs. That aside Germany has increasing club membership. Wonder what they are doing differant for that to happen. As sure as eggs is eggs, al bet no one from the UK pops over to make a few enquiries.


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## duncan mackie (Nov 1, 2019)

2blue said:



			Yeah...  shocking.... gonna take some turning around.....  radical thinking of some kind required... & I'm not sure the Trad Golf Clubs are capable of doing it.
		
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Not sure what's shocking, or whether it's even a problem - let alone one that desperately requires turning round.

Taking a couple of stats from it and looking at it a different way; England has had a higher increase in New courses in percentage terms than it has had a fall in 'registered' players.
Taken together with the fact that the reported numbers are the cumulative club membership returns (without adjustment for multiple memberships) as well as not accounting for non members, and you don't really have any firm basis for the statement that participation in English golf has really changed at all - and some evidence that it's seen as being able to support increased supply (although the new courses may well have been offset by those closing down!).

On the other hand it could also be argued that the percentages in England and Scotland are higher than can probably be realistically sustained anyway.


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## timd77 (Nov 1, 2019)

Iâ€™ve recently joined a golf club for the very first time, and 2 months in, itâ€™s not been a great experience. I donâ€™t know anyone at the club. Iâ€™ve played in all of the comps to try and get â€˜inâ€™ and although Iâ€™ve got on well enough with playing partners, gone in for a beer after each round and have been added to a WhatsApp group of some 20+ members, Iâ€™m not getting asked to join in roll ups.

The official fourball is coming up, Iâ€™ve asked on the WhatsApp group if anyone wants to partner up, didnâ€™t even get a response. Iâ€™ve texted the captain twice to ask for help but he hasnâ€™t even acknowledged them, despite responding to other texts about comps, fees etc.

Iâ€™ve asked the pro shop to help, all I get is â€˜weâ€™ll ask aroundâ€™ but nothing ever comes of it. I emailed the pro yesterday to formally ask for help with the winter pairs series, again he says heâ€™ll try and help but Iâ€™m not holding my breath.

If this is how it is everywhere else, Iâ€™m not surprised membership isnâ€™t decreasing, and I probably wonâ€™t bother next year.


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## IanM (Nov 1, 2019)

Sad to hear.  I've been a member at 4 clubs in my golfing life and I've seen similar at one, but generally that's the exception in my experience.

2 months might not be long, but after a while Id consider leaving if decent local alternatives are available.

If the club requires notice to leave, give it and state reasons....see what happens.   

But 2 months isn't very long.....good luck


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## SammmeBee (Nov 1, 2019)

2blue said:



			Yeah...  shocking.... gonna take some turning around.....  radical thinking of some kind required... & I'm not sure the Trad Golf Clubs are capable of doing it.
		
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Which bit is â€˜shockingâ€™?!


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## Crow (Nov 1, 2019)

timd77 said:



			Iâ€™ve recently joined a golf club for the very first time, and 2 months in, itâ€™s not been a great experience. I donâ€™t know anyone at the club. Iâ€™ve played in all of the comps to try and get â€˜inâ€™ and although Iâ€™ve got on well enough with playing partners, gone in for a beer after each round and have been added to a WhatsApp group of some 20+ members, Iâ€™m not getting asked to join in roll ups.

The official fourball is coming up, Iâ€™ve asked on the WhatsApp group if anyone wants to partner up, didnâ€™t even get a response. Iâ€™ve texted the captain twice to ask for help but he hasnâ€™t even acknowledged them, despite responding to other texts about comps, fees etc.

Iâ€™ve asked the pro shop to help, all I get is â€˜weâ€™ll ask aroundâ€™ but nothing ever comes of it. I emailed the pro yesterday to formally ask for help with the winter pairs series, again he says heâ€™ll try and help but Iâ€™m not holding my breath.

If this is how it is everywhere else, Iâ€™m not surprised membership isnâ€™t decreasing, and I probably wonâ€™t bother next year.
		
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That's poor. How big are the roll-up groups?

My club used to be good for roll-ups but once we went to on-line tee booking they became less easy to organise.

Having said that though I find on-line booking great as I can just drop into a free space. I don't like playing in a regular fourball or threeball as I find they're restrictive, my preference is to play with as many different people as I can, which at the same time helps in integrating into the club. It takes a while but eventually it happens.

Re  the official fourball, maybe try asking a few people face-to-face about partnering?  It's easy to ignore a general WhatsApp request but asking directly will get you an answer one way or the other, and if people are already paired up they might know someone who isn't or ask around on your behalf.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 1, 2019)

We seems to be bucking the trend with over 40 new members last year and more joining.

While our course doesnâ€™t have the best overall layout, the condition is one of the best in the area and itâ€™s the most relaxed club to match.  Our roll up is open to everyone without any restrictions to gender and an average turn up is 35-40.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 1, 2019)

Our committee are now younger guys who are trying to change things for the better, and doing a grand job 
We recently changed to a Public house / Restaurant licence, which allows non members to book the lounge for meals and functions or just pop in for a drink. Seems to be working the lounge is busy most days.


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## robinthehood (Nov 1, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Our committee are now younger guys who are trying to change things for the better, and doing a grand job 
We recently changed to a Public house / Restaurant licence, which allows non members to book the lounge for meals and functions or just pop in for a drink. Seems to be working the lounge is busy most days.
		
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Any restrictions on dress. ?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 1, 2019)

timd77 said:



			Iâ€™ve recently joined a golf club for the very first time, and 2 months in, itâ€™s not been a great experience. I donâ€™t know anyone at the club. Iâ€™ve played in all of the comps to try and get â€˜inâ€™ and although Iâ€™ve got on well enough with playing partners, gone in for a beer after each round and have been added to a WhatsApp group of some 20+ members, Iâ€™m not getting asked to join in roll ups.

The official fourball is coming up, Iâ€™ve asked on the WhatsApp group if anyone wants to partner up, didnâ€™t even get a response. Iâ€™ve texted the captain twice to ask for help but he hasnâ€™t even acknowledged them, despite responding to other texts about comps, fees etc.

Iâ€™ve asked the pro shop to help, all I get is â€˜weâ€™ll ask aroundâ€™ but nothing ever comes of it. I emailed the pro yesterday to formally ask for help with the winter pairs series, again he says heâ€™ll try and help but Iâ€™m not holding my breath.

If this is how it is everywhere else, Iâ€™m not surprised membership isnâ€™t decreasing, and I probably wonâ€™t bother next year.
		
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Two months isnâ€™t that long really.
Our roll ups are exactly that 11am mon,wed fri. Anyone can play.
Itâ€™s a great way to meet people .
So hang in there ,donâ€™t forget the weather has been crap people wonâ€™t commit when itâ€™s like this.

We have meets for new players.
Put a notice on the notice board asking if someone wants to play ,there maybe another member in your position.


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## GG26 (Nov 1, 2019)

We have had a good year for new joiners and our junior membership has grown significantly.  
Just wondering if nationally there has been an increase in membership this year to buck the recent trend.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Any restrictions on dress. ?
		
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Smart casual in the club house, no dirty working clothes .You can wear a dress if you want


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## inc0gnito (Nov 1, 2019)

The tide comes in. The tide goes out. The tide comes in again.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Two months isnâ€™t that long really.
Our roll ups are exactly that 11am mon,wed fri. Anyone can play.
Itâ€™s a great way to meet people .
So hang in there ,donâ€™t forget the weather has been crap people wonâ€™t commit when itâ€™s like this.

We have meets for new players.
Put a notice on the notice board asking if someone wants to play ,there maybe another member in your position.
		
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Two months isn't long, no help response from fellow members, pro and captain??? I'd be taking my custom elsewhere.

I recently moved clubs and my welcome has been tremendous. From the initial  welcome/introduction game with a couple of council members, to the starter and club steward both taking the time to come and introduce themselves to me due to not knowing my face. Both also told me if I need any help not to hesitate to approach them. The pro has also been extremely pleasant and helpful. I also turned up at the Saturday morning sweep (roll up I think is your equivalent) and was made more than welcome.

That's what a good members club is all about.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 1, 2019)

That's a grim post by timd77. I'm with Jacko on his response, if it didn't improve I'd be off.

Clubs have to be welcoming. It's a buyer's market right now and if the overall product isn't good enough there are plenty of alternatives to jump to.


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## timd77 (Nov 1, 2019)

Thanks for the responses.

Iâ€™ve asked about roll ups, theyâ€™re during the week, which is no good for me as I work.

I guess it is still early days and the weather wonâ€™t have helped. Iâ€™m just feeling a bit frustrated, especially because most of the upcoming official comps are either four balls or the winter pairs series, and so if I canâ€™t find a playing partner, I wonâ€™t be able to join in, meaning very little competitive golf until spring, and subsequently fewer chances of playing with a range of members.

I know I could just ask people face to face if I can join in, but Iâ€™m not the most confident chap to do that.

I think if Iâ€™d joined in the spring I wouldâ€™ve had a good 6 months to get involved, and would by now know people to arrange games with during the winter.

Iâ€™m mainly frustrated at the club and captain. I thought their job was to help with this sort of thing!

Ps - I canâ€™t bugger off because itâ€™s a fairway credit membership type thing.


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## SammmeBee (Nov 1, 2019)

Surely for a Roll Up you just â€˜roll upâ€™?!


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 1, 2019)

upsidedown said:



			thankfully we seem to be bucking the trend
		
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Itâ€™s not clubs like yours that are at risk. You likely have a quality product in a reasonable location and a healthy pool of customers.

If your club a 27 hole complex is in the middle of nowhere, where there is already a high quality club but can still get away charging Â£15 for 18 holes and somehow not going under... then you would be bucking the trend.

There are only so many golfers who can be members, so many other distractions in life. 

These clubs could reinvent themselves and survive but never as 18 hole member clubs with joining fees. 

We need shorter courses, fewer holes and easier and cheaper to run and maintain clubs. Make them affordable all around and open to the huge market of nomad or infrequent golfer who canâ€™t commit to a yearly sub for barley 6 or 7 rounds over a summer.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 1, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			Itâ€™s not clubs like yours that are at risk. You likely have a quality product in a reasonable location and a healthy pool of customers.

If your club a 27 hole complex is in the middle of nowhere, where there is already a high quality club but can still get away charging Â£15 for 18 holes and somehow not going under... then you would be bucking the trend.

There are only so many golfers who can be members, so many other distractions in life.

These clubs could reinvent themselves and survive but never as 18 hole member clubs with joining fees.

We need shorter courses, fewer holes and easier and cheaper to run and maintain clubs. Make them affordable all around and open to the huge market of nomad or infrequent golfer who canâ€™t commit to a yearly sub for barley 6 or 7 rounds over a summer.
		
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I think cheaper courses are key. Britain isn't exactly a prosperous flourishing economy now, wages have stagnated while inflation and costs creep upwards year on year which is seriously hitting Joe Public in the pocket. Luxury past times are not affordable to many now. 

Golf is expensive and time consuming with selfish attitudes. It'll continue to fall in popularity in Britain is my assessment.


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## Wolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I think cheaper courses are key. Britain isn't exactly a prosperous flourishing economy now, wages have stagnated while inflation and costs creep upwards year on year which is seriously hitting Joe Public in the pocket. *Luxury past times are not affordable to many now.*

*Golf is expensive and time consuming with selfish attitudes. It'll continue to fall in popularity in Britain is my assessment.*

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Absolutely nailed it with that last part imo. Memberships are not cheap, golf isn't a game that allows for a quick fix, especially for those under 45yrs old with young families or those with more important outgoings on salaries that are stagnated in an unbelievably uncertain economic time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			Itâ€™s not clubs like yours that are at risk. You likely have a quality product in a reasonable location and a healthy pool of customers.

If your club a 27 hole complex is in the middle of nowhere, where there is already a high quality club but can still get away charging Â£15 for 18 holes and somehow not going under... then you would be bucking the trend.

There are only so many golfers who can be members, so many other distractions in life.

These clubs could reinvent themselves and survive but never as 18 hole member clubs with joining fees.

*We need shorter courses, fewer holes and easier and cheaper to run and maintain clubs. Make them affordable all around and open to the huge market of nomad or infrequent golfer who canâ€™t commit to a yearly sub for barley 6 or 7 rounds over a summer.*

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How huge a market do you think it is ? Suspect itâ€™s not as huge as you suspect 

Shorter, easier courses ?!? Why make it easier ? Thatâ€™s sanitising the sport - If someone finds it hard - practise 

Golf courses are expensive to look after even the bog standard public courses 



Jacko_G said:



			I think cheaper courses are key. Britain isn't exactly a prosperous flourishing economy now, wages have stagnated while inflation and costs creep upwards year on year which is seriously hitting Joe Public in the pocket. Luxury past times are not affordable to many now.

Golf is expensive and time consuming with selfish attitudes. It'll continue to fall in popularity in Britain is my assessment.
		
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A cheap golf course in most areas will mean a poor golf course , and a poor golf course will be the course that struggles in hard times 

We donâ€™t see top courses closing ? Why when they are the most expensive to play? Because there are still thousands of golfers out there that want to play these courses - they donâ€™t want cheap they want quality 

Golf memberships fluctuate with the financial conditions in the nation - it dropped during the recession, increased during the recovery and we now have a slight drop prob due to Brexit uncertainty , â€œselfish attitudesâ€ ? Not exactly sure what these are in golf but again I doubt the impact is as much as you believe 

Either way the sport has pretty much levelled out over the past 5 years - courses will close if they arenâ€™t good enough or run poorly - but new courses appear 

We donâ€™t need to dumb down the sport or the courses - there will always be a course or a membership level for the golf you want in your area


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## Bazzatron (Nov 2, 2019)

Two munis closing by me, Brandhall and Hill Top. Learned to play the game at both, sad to see them close. Still use them often.


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## timd77 (Nov 2, 2019)

Bazzatron said:



			Two munis closing by me, Brandhall and Hill Top. Learned to play the game at both, sad to see them close. Still use them often.
		
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Is that true? I played those regularly until recently! Both very good courses.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Two months isn't long, no help response from fellow members, pro and captain??? I'd be taking my custom elsewhere.

I recently moved clubs and my welcome has been tremendous. From the initial  welcome/introduction game with a couple of council members, to the starter and club steward both taking the time to come and introduce themselves to me due to not knowing my face. Both also told me if I need any help not to hesitate to approach them. The pro has also been extremely pleasant and helpful. I also turned up at the Saturday morning sweep (roll up I think is your equivalent) and was made more than welcome.

That's what a good members club is all about.
		
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Yes I agree with you but was trying to be a bit upbeat!
The response from the club and pro is really poor.
But you have to put your face about a bit to get involved as some members can be very hard to let a stranger in their games.
But you are right it should be more welcoming!


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## Jacko_G (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How huge a market do you think it is ? Suspect itâ€™s not as huge as you suspect 

Shorter, easier courses ?!? Why make it easier ? Thatâ€™s sanitising the sport - If someone finds it hard - practise 

Golf courses are expensive to look after even the bog standard public courses 



A cheap golf course in most areas will mean a poor golf course , and a poor golf course will be the course that struggles in hard times 

We donâ€™t see top courses closing ? Why when they are the most expensive to play? Because there are still thousands of golfers out there that want to play these courses - they donâ€™t want cheap they want quality 

Golf memberships fluctuate with the financial conditions in the nation - it dropped during the recession, increased during the recovery and we now have a slight drop prob due to Brexit uncertainty , â€œselfish attitudesâ€ ? Not exactly sure what these are in golf but again I doubt the impact is as much as you believe 

Either way the sport has pretty much levelled out over the past 5 years - courses will close if they arenâ€™t good enough or run poorly - but new courses appear 

We donâ€™t need to dumb down the sport or the courses - there will always be a course or a membership level for the golf you want in your area
		
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You're missing the point. "Working class" don't have the disposable income anymore due to inflation and  and huge rises in cost of living while their wages have stalled. That bracket are the ones walking away as they reassess their incomes and needs. Family comes before golf. 

The club's who depended on this are the ones struggling, top courses will always have the money and demand. That's life.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			You're missing the point. "Working class" don't have the disposable income anymore due to inflation and  and huge rises in cost of living while their wages have stalled. That bracket are the ones walking away as they reassess their incomes and needs. Family comes before golf.

The club's who depended on this are the ones struggling, top courses will always have the money and demand. That's life.
		
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You canâ€™t â€œmakeâ€ golf cheaper - golf clubs on a whole make what is needed to keep the course going , they arenâ€™t looking to make profits , any money earned is money spent back into the course - offer cheap golf make less money , course then starts to suffer , less people play it because itâ€™s in a poor condition and the end game is closure. 

Start making the product cheaper you reduce the quality - 

And itâ€™s not always about the cost - our club is full of working class people - time is a big barrier for people but thatâ€™s the nature of the sport.


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			You're missing the point. "Working class" don't have the disposable income anymore due to inflation and  and huge rises in cost of living while their wages have stalled. That bracket are the ones walking away as they reassess their incomes and needs. Family comes before golf. 

The club's who depended on this are the ones struggling, top courses will always have the money and demand. That's life.
		
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I'm not sure what the boundary of Working Class is, but lots of middle aged blokes who would have played golf in the 80s are now clogging up B Roads, in funny clothes, riding Â£5k bicycles!


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## Hobbit (Nov 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			You're missing the point. "Working class" don't have the disposable income anymore due to inflation and  and huge rises in cost of living while their wages have stalled. That bracket are the ones walking away as they reassess their incomes and needs. Family comes before golf.

The club's who depended on this are the ones struggling, top courses will always have the money and demand. That's life.
		
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Are working class significantly worse off in recent years due to inflation. I genuinely don't know but would ask the question that if inflation has been running at between 1% and 3%, and the average wage increase has been running at around 0.5% below inflation just how much has wages lagged behind inflation? The raw numbers suggest that, based on the average wage, the lag is around Â£13 per month - that's not even 4 pints of beer a month. That's one pint a week.

That aside, there's a good number of articles with emotional headlines suggesting armageddon is just around the corner in terms of club numbers. But the stats don't accurately reflect the headlines, and do in fact suggest that numbers have increased slightly since 2014.

But there's been a number of clubs gone to the wall. How is that reconciled against membership numbers/fees? Maybe its down to members becoming nomads. Maybe its because the inflation factors for a business are different to those that Joe Public feels, e.g. a significant cost for a club is diesel. Has diesel gone up at a greater rate than the average inflation rate? Have some clubs gone to the wall because over a period of time they've frozen their subs to retain membership numbers, and are now doubly struggling to make ends meet?

Honestly, I think any change is down to popularity. Golf just doesn't light many people's candles. Many guys coming away from Sunday league football find other, less time-consuming sports. And guys are more family orientated now than they've ever been.

But the stats suggest that golf is slightly on the up? Go figure.


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## RangeMonkey (Nov 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are working class significantly worse off in recent years due to inflation. I genuinely don't know but would ask the question that if inflation has been running at between 1% and 3%, and the average wage increase has been running at around 0.5% below inflation just how much has wages lagged behind inflation? The raw numbers suggest that, based on the average wage, the lag is around Â£13 per month - that's not even 4 pints of beer a month. That's one pint a week.
		
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But thatâ€™s been going for over ten years. So thatâ€™s Â£130 a month, or, with compounding, closer to Â£200 a month. And the figures are skewed by higher earners. For low and middle earners, itâ€™s much worse.

20 years ago, I earned about 60% of what I earn now (because Iâ€™ve progressed in my career), but I had easily double the disposable income.


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## stefanovic (Nov 2, 2019)

Bazzatron said:



			Two munis closing by me, Brandhall and Hill Top. Learned to play the game at both, sad to see them close. Still use them often.
		
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Hilltop may be closed for a revamp. It's in Sandwell Valley country park so housing is unlikely. Whenever I've been there in the last few years the huge car park hasn't had many cars in it. So they need to do something.

Brandhall probably will close because of declining membership. It has more dog walkers than golfers and kids invade the course after school ripping out the flags. A couple of years ago when I complained about this I was told by a guy sitting in the shop "I don't give a ####!"

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/black-country/totally-disgusted-golfers-fear-course-17163023


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			I'm not sure what the boundary of Working Class is, but lots of middle aged blokes who would have played golf in the 80s are now clogging up B Roads, in funny clothes, riding Â£5k bicycles!
		
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I heard recently on the radio someone from either the EGU or the R and A saying the biggest competition for golf was from cycling. People who would have naturally moved into golf were now taking up cycling. It's a good point.


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## Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I heard recently on the radio someone from either the EGU or the R and A saying the biggest competition for golf was from cycling. People who would have naturally moved into golf were now taking up cycling. It's a good point.
		
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Think that was the guy in charge of the R&A was an interesting podcast with him as a guests with Hugh Marr I think it was, discussing the decline in that, cycling has become the No1 challenge to golf as a sport because it can be done socially with family without any constraints or can be done a apart of a club in less time and more numbers.

Edit: Keith Pelly head of ET also did one about state of the game, unaffordable costs and the amount of time it takes to play being factors stopping familys from getting into the game.


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2019)

Just received our accounts.  Club made a loss this year, but spent a lot of money on new bunkers and practice facilities.  But, the club is full and still charges a joining fee.  Vicious circle of needing to invest and being able to do so.  

I think we are right at the top of what we are able to charge, will be interesting to see how a Â£50 increase in subs (first in several years)  is received at AGM.  But, the courses that have closed in our region were built in 1980s and didn't keep the quality up....


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## robinthehood (Nov 2, 2019)

Oof , I've been a member at quite a few places and they've all had a group of long serving members who feel they have some special standing due to being there so long. Rights to specific times as that's when they've always played etc...


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## Bazzatron (Nov 2, 2019)

timd77 said:



			Is that true? I played those regularly until recently! Both very good courses.
		
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Hilltop is apparently closing for two years and will come back remodelled and with a par 3 and range. Believe it when I see it. 

Brandhall, they're consulting with all concerned parties. Can see it shutting.


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## 4LEX (Nov 2, 2019)

For me theres way too many mediocre or average golf courses and clubs. I think you can probably close a third of them and no one would really miss them. Much better for have quality over quantity.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 2, 2019)

I think there are definitely greater time constraints on many people these days and so spending four hours (or more) is hard to factor in, let alone any extra time in the 19th. There is also the cost factor and some clubs still insisting on a joining fee to make an initial hit quite big, even if this is deferred or paid over several years. I think clubs have to work harder to make their product more appealing on and off the course and many don't seem to making the effort


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## Hobbit (Nov 2, 2019)

A quick search;

https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news/golf-club-membership-in-england-on-the-rise-164088


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 2, 2019)

Another interesting point of view https://www.golfshake.com/news/view/14389/Golf_Course_Closures_Fast_Reaching_Crisis_Point.html


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## williamalex1 (Nov 2, 2019)

Another reason is too many courses, we have at least 24 golf courses within a 30 minute drive of ours.


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## trevor (Nov 2, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another interesting point of view https://www.golfshake.com/news/view/14389/Golf_Course_Closures_Fast_Reaching_Crisis_Point.html[/QUOTE

â€œThey wanted to play proper courses. These were players who were not steeped in the traditions of the game. Many didnâ€™t really understand etiquette. But they did know how to have fun. And fun is a word that is frowned upon by too many UK golf clubs. So eventually they began to drift away from the game.â€


A paragraph taken from the above link, is golf taken too seriously at some clubs?
		
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## hovis (Nov 2, 2019)

I won't name the club but we wanted to play a national game there and pretty much close the course for 3 days to members (mid week).  they said no. 

We ended up playing another course and over 3 days also consumed over 2000 pints of guiness, 600 additional meals as lunch wasn't Included and 1.5k in the pro shop. 
the members of the club welcomed us with open arms as the money was being put back into the course.       the other course recently stated they are close to folding!!!!!!!!   says alot


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## Oddsocks (Nov 2, 2019)

SammmeBee said:



			Surely for a Roll Up you just â€˜roll upâ€™?!
		
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You would think, but three of my local clubs you need to be invited into


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## SammmeBee (Nov 2, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			You would think, but three of my local clubs you need to be invited into
		
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Doesnâ€™t make much sense then does it?  Itâ€™s not the clubs that need to be more open and accommodating - itâ€™s the members of said clubs.....


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## Oddsocks (Nov 2, 2019)

Couldnâ€™t agree more sam.  Our GM openly pushes our swindle with every enquiry and even offers a free game with the swindle before joining.

scrap the politics, we all go to a course for the same reason


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## Jacko_G (Nov 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are working class significantly worse off in recent years due to inflation. I genuinely don't know but would ask the question that if inflation has been running at between 1% and 3%, and the average wage increase has been running at around 0.5% below inflation just how much has wages lagged behind inflation? The raw numbers suggest that, based on the average wage, the lag is around Â£13 per month - that's not even 4 pints of beer a month. That's one pint a week.

That aside, there's a good number of articles with emotional headlines suggesting armageddon is just around the corner in terms of club numbers. But the stats don't accurately reflect the headlines, and do in fact suggest that numbers have increased slightly since 2014.

But there's been a number of clubs gone to the wall. How is that reconciled against membership numbers/fees? Maybe its down to members becoming nomads. Maybe its because the inflation factors for a business are different to those that Joe Public feels, e.g. a significant cost for a club is diesel. Has diesel gone up at a greater rate than the average inflation rate? Have some clubs gone to the wall because over a period of time they've frozen their subs to retain membership numbers, and are now doubly struggling to make ends meet?

Honestly, I think any change is down to popularity. Golf just doesn't light many people's candles. Many guys coming away from Sunday league football find other, less time-consuming sports. And guys are more family orientated now than they've ever been.

But the stats suggest that golf is slightly on the up? Go figure.
		
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I'll beg to differ as disposable income has deteriorated drastically for numerous families. Wages have stagnated for years.


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## Hobbit (Nov 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I'll beg to differ as disposable income has deteriorated drastically for numerous families. Wages have stagnated for years.
		
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Lets agree to disagree. Without a doubt disposable income has deteriorated for a number of families but not for a lot of others. And then there's how much have salaries gone up and how much has subs gone up?

Edit; go and have a look on the ONS website for disposable incomes for retired and non-retired incomes. Disposable incomes in non-retired householdshave gone up 3.5% in the last 2 years, and 1.2% for retired households.

As I say, go to the ONS website. It makes surprising reading.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Lets agree to disagree. Without a doubt disposable income has deteriorated for a number of families but not for a lot of others. And then there's how much have salaries gone up and how much has subs gone up?

Edit; go and have a look on the ONS website for disposable incomes for retired and non-retired incomes. Disposable incomes in non-retired householdshave gone up 3.5% in the last 2 years, and 1.2% for retired households.

As I say, go to the ONS website. It makes surprising reading.
		
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As a pensioner with an additional private pension and mortgage paid, I've never been so well of in my life. 
Clubs should be trying to attract more retired people to play mid week when most courses are empty.


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## patricks148 (Nov 3, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			As a pensioner with an additional private pension and mortgage paid, I've never been so well of in my life.
Clubs should be trying to attract more retired people to play mid week when most courses are empty.
		
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This, rather than chasing younsters, who don't have the time or the money


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 3, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			As a pensioner with an additional private pension and mortgage paid, I've never been so well of in my life.
Clubs should be trying to attract more retired people to play mid week when most courses are empty.
		
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Ours has them already.
They spend more than the young guys who are always going somewhere kids,work etc.
Itâ€™s a tough life now for younger men ( it is usually men) juggling everything to get time to play.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Ours has them already.
They spend more than the young guys who are always going somewhere kids,work etc.
Itâ€™s a tough life now for younger men ( it is usually men) juggling everything to get time to play.
		
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It was just as tough if not tougher when i was young, sadly a long time ago


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## trevor (Nov 3, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			As a pensioner with an additional private pension and mortgage paid, I've never been so well of in my life.
Clubs should be trying to attract more retired people to play mid week when most courses are empty.
		
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Not sure we could fit any more retired people on our course on a Monday, itâ€™s normally booked solid from 7 30 until 12 30.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 3, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			It was just as tough if not tougher when i was young, sadly a long time ago 

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It was just the same ,just seemed tougher because it was you and me.
I was lucky I worked shifts that helps getting to pla.
Donâ€™t know how 9/5 lads get to play.


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Shorter, easier courses ?!? Why make it easier ? Thatâ€™s sanitising the sport - If someone finds it hard - practise
		
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I think it does need a bit of a refresh, a fresh approach would do it good.

People play for fun. Long, boggy, unkept courses are killing the game.

We need cheaper, shorter, easier, quicker to play courses that gets the golf fix but fits with the modern age.

Harder courses and members courses will always have, they are the ones doing the best now as they have cornered the core market. They know their audience and play right to them.

The rest of the courses need to cater to the rest of the golfing market, not try and tap into the market already catered for.


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## fundy (Nov 3, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I think it does need a bit of a refresh, a fresh approach would do it good.

People play for fun. Long, boggy, unkept courses are killing the game.

We need cheaper, shorter, easier, quicker to play courses that gets the golf fix but fits with the modern age.

Harder courses and members courses will always have, they are the ones doing the best now as they have cornered the core market. They know their audience and play right to them.

The rest of the courses need to cater to the rest of the golfing market, not try and tap into the market already catered for.
		
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is this really to suit the rest of the golfing market or just what you would like and would suit you?

how many long boggy unkept courses are there?


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## Jacko_G (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Lets agree to disagree. Without a doubt disposable income has deteriorated for a number of families but not for a lot of others. And then there's how much have salaries gone up and how much has subs gone up?

Edit; go and have a look on the ONS website for disposable incomes for retired and non-retired incomes. Disposable incomes in non-retired householdshave gone up 3.5% in the last 2 years, and 1.2% for retired households.

As I say, go to the ONS website. It makes surprising reading.
		
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Yes agree to disagree is probably best. 

My own situation, I've been sensible/lucky with overpaying my mortgage for years. That said my disposable income is drastically reduced from where it was and if I hadn't done what I had done when younger I would struggle to afford where I now currently play my golf.

I firmly believe that low incomes/higher cost of living have seriously impacted on golf club membership.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I think it does need a bit of a refresh, a fresh approach would do it good.

People play for fun. Long, boggy, unkept courses are killing the game.

We need cheaper, shorter, easier, quicker to play courses that gets the golf fix but fits with the modern age.

Harder courses and members courses will always have, they are the ones doing the best now as they have cornered the core market. They know their audience and play right to them.

The rest of the courses need to cater to the rest of the golfing market, not try and tap into the market already catered for.
		
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As already asked - do you really think there is a big enough market for someone to build a â€œshort easierâ€ course ? Or is it just to suit your needs ?

Long boggy courses killing the game ? Sorry but thatâ€™s utter rubbish unless you can provide some substance behind it ? 

And the game isnâ€™t dieing,


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As already asked - do you really think there is a big enough market for someone to build a â€œshort easierâ€ course ? Or is it just to suit your needs ?

Long boggy courses killing the game ? Sorry but thatâ€™s utter rubbish unless you can provide some substance behind it ?

And the game isnâ€™t dieing,
		
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A short easier course to suit families / beginners might be ok for summer but in this climate it would be empty 8 months of the year .
But if they could make one work why not.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As already asked - do you really think there is a big enough market for someone to build a â€œshort easierâ€ course ? Or is it just to suit your needs ?

Long boggy courses killing the game ? Sorry but thatâ€™s utter rubbish unless you can provide some substance behind it ? 

And the game isnâ€™t dieing,
		
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Yip I can. 

I left my local clubs due to soggy crap winter golf and now travel 22 miles each way to ay on the coast as I simply wasn't getting value for money.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Yip I can.

I left my local clubs due to soggy crap winter golf and now travel 22 miles each way to ay on the coast as I simply wasn't getting value for money.
		
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But you didnâ€™t leave for a â€œshort easy courseâ€ and thatâ€™s not â€œsubstanceâ€ that itâ€™s â€œkilling the gameâ€ 

If a course is poor in the winter or during heavy rain period then it will suffer so as I said from the start - poor quality courses are the ones that will suffer and thatâ€™s regardless of its length 

A lot of the courses that are closing or suffering are ones that popped up during the boom , on clay based farmland - itâ€™s not surprise that when people get a choice as there is now they go for the better quality ones , ones that allow more golf ( not easier or quicker ) to be played 

When our course was extended then used poor soil and during wet times the back 9 was closed and we were losing members - so the club spent a lot of money on installing new drainage and now itâ€™s open every day except snow


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## Jacko_G (Nov 3, 2019)

Not up here. We're losing established tracks with years of history.


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## Parsaregood (Nov 3, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Not up here. We're losing established tracks with years of history.
		
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Simply because theres too many courses in central/sw scotland. Within a 5 mile radius of my house I have nearly 20 golf courses. That isnt sustainable even for the most popular of sports


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Not up here. We're losing established tracks with years of history.
		
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Then there is a high chance that there is a difference between Scotland and England -

How many of the established clubs are what you would call top clubs and are the members moving on or just stopping ?

Are they members clubs ? Municipal Clubs ? Is the area flooded with clubs from that boom 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/spor...club-closures-par-course-savage-natural-cull/

Did find this interesting with fingers being pointed at clubs not reacting to changes over the years

Or do people in Scotland just play less golf now ?

I think itâ€™s impossible to point at one reason

Golf had a big boom - then itâ€™s dropped to normal levels and clubs need to find ways to make their product attractive and for all ages

value for money is one key for many - are people getting a good product for their money

There are yearly reports on these members numbers and it seems over the 5 years itâ€™s mainly grown especially in England and new courses are being built

But the answer isnâ€™t and never weâ€™ll be - built short easier courses


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As already asked - do you really think there is a big enough market for someone to build a â€œshort easierâ€ course ? Or is it just to suit your needs ?

Long boggy courses killing the game ? Sorry but thatâ€™s utter rubbish unless you can provide some substance behind it ?

And the game isnâ€™t dieing,
		
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Have you played  Beadlow lately ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## patricks148 (Nov 3, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Not up here. We're losing established tracks with years of history.
		
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.
yep same up here Strathpeffer struggling built 1888, Golspie too 1889 and Tain which Old Tom, updated and built in 1889 all struggling, mainly as the cost has risen, demand has fallen.

Strath I'm told now only has 20 ish members


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Have you played  Beadlow lately ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Nope because even when courses were doing well that was still a poor course and when wet will suffer again from poor drainage and not investing in the course or club to improve it.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Simply because theres too many courses in central/sw scotland. Within a 5 mile radius of my house I have nearly 20 golf courses. That isnt sustainable even for the most popular of sports
		
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Of course it can't be sustained and I've argued for years that Scotland needs at least another 70+ clubs to go to the wall for others to survive and start to prosper again. 

That said it's lack of time and finances that always gets rolled out as excuses for people leaving. When people start to leave the club's suffer until it's not financially viable for them to continue to operate. Therefore it's a "natural selection" of survival of the fittest. Clubs that start to lose members continue to lose members due to lack of investment, this leads to others (who can still afford time/finances) migrating to "better" clubs.

It's another reason why clubs are introducing 9 hole competitions as a way to try and keep members who claim 4.5/5 hour medal rounds are not acceptable or can't justify that amount of time away from family/other commitments. 

Golf is on a downward spiral in Scotland at present. There is no other way to paint the picture. It's going to keep going that way for the foreseeable.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 3, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I think it does need a bit of a refresh, a fresh approach would do it good.

People play for fun. Long, boggy, unkept courses are killing the game.

We need cheaper, shorter, easier, quicker to play courses that gets the golf fix but fits with the modern age.

Harder courses and members courses will always have, they are the ones doing the best now as they have cornered the core market. They know their audience and play right to them.

The rest of the courses need to cater to the rest of the golfing market, not try and tap into the market already catered for.
		
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Disagree. If a club is unkempt then that will always put members off and of course as a result a club will then struggle, If it's that boggy then argument would be it shouldn't be open and then again people will drift away. Either way at some point it become uneconomic and a club will close. That is nothing to do with a fresh approach but simple maths. Similarly people aren't going to join and STAY at a club that is short and easy to play. We all want to play a course that is interesting and provides a fresh challenge each time we play. In winter, there is nothing to stop members playing off a yellow or even further forward tee.


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## stefanovic (Nov 4, 2019)

As for the 8 former Birmingham municipals now under private management, they are still open. But compared to the levels of the 1990's when they peaked they now have at the most about one quarter membership.
Most at risk are Boldmere, Harborne CF, Lickeys. These are courses that have not diversified.


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## Orikoru (Nov 4, 2019)

There's another course near me that's closing temporarily so they can sell their clubhouse to be demolished and used for housing: https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/17954431.members-say-goodbye-bushey-hall-golf-club/

A new clubhouse supposedly being put up, not sure where they're fitting it in. 

_Looking back over the years, Ms Taylor said: "There have been a lot of changes. When I joined, we had around 500 members. Now we have around 160._​​Sad to see on a course I've played many times. What happens to a course which is closed for two years?? Does someone keep it mowed and everything even though nobody's playing there? Or does it just overgrow and then they have to practically start from scratch in the up-keep before it reopens?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 4, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			There's another course near me that's closing temporarily so they can sell their clubhouse to be demolished and used for housing: https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/17954431.members-say-goodbye-bushey-hall-golf-club/

A new clubhouse supposedly being put up, not sure where they're fitting it in.

_Looking back over the years, Ms Taylor said: "There have been a lot of changes. When I joined, we had around 500 members. Now we have around 160._​​Sad to see on a course I've played many times. What happens to a course which is closed for two years?? Does someone keep it mowed and everything even though nobody's playing there? Or does it just overgrow and then they have to practically start from scratch in the up-keep before it reopens?
		
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If they don't keep the greenkeeper / groundsman on then it will just be left and get overgrown. Why would someone cut it, look after it for free. My club went into administration 3 years ago. Luckily the administrator was a golfer so he made sure the greenkeeper and team were kept on and paid. They closed the clubhouse to save money but they protected the course as that was the key asset. After all what use a clubhouse if there is no course?

The question for this course is do they have funds to keep a greens team going without golfers there to pay fees? Equally, if they only have 160 members is it really viable? If it closes the members will go and play elsewhere, they will have to. How many would come back? Once closed, incredibly doubtful if it can come back.


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## sunshine (Nov 4, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			There's another course near me that's closing temporarily so they can sell their clubhouse to be demolished and used for housing: https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/17954431.members-say-goodbye-bushey-hall-golf-club/

A new clubhouse supposedly being put up, not sure where they're fitting it in.

_Looking back over the years, Ms Taylor said: "There have been a lot of changes. When I joined, we had around 500 members. Now we have around 160._​​Sad to see on a course I've played many times. What happens to a course which is closed for two years?? Does someone keep it mowed and everything even though nobody's playing there? Or does it just overgrow and then they have to practically start from scratch in the up-keep before it reopens?
		
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They are retaining some of the green staff to maintain the course. Doesn't need a full team as there will be no play on the course.

The plan is to build the new clubhouse where the pro shop currently is.

To be honest, unless the economic environment is drastically different in two years time, I can't see them successfully reopening the course. The only reason I can see that the club was able to hold on to members was loyalty... but that has been taken out of the equation. Loads of other courses in the area so people who moved are unlikely to move back unless there is a tangible incentive.


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## Orikoru (Nov 4, 2019)

sunshine said:



			They are retaining some of the green staff to maintain the course. Doesn't need a full team as there will be no play on the course.

The plan is to build the new clubhouse where the pro shop currently is.

To be honest, unless the economic environment is drastically different in two years time, I can't see them successfully reopening the course. The only reason I can see that the club was able to hold on to members was loyalty... but that has been taken out of the equation. Loads of other courses in the area so people who moved are unlikely to move back unless there is a tangible incentive.
		
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Would have to be a pretty small clubhouse to fit it there wouldn't it?? Yeah, you can't really see lots of people flooding back with their membership if they've settled in somewhere else can you? I imagine Aldenham, West Herts and Radlett would have picked up a lot of their members, who won't be jumping at the chance to move back I shouldn't think. Must take a long time to build up a reasonable membership from scratch.

That said, if membership is cheap when they reopen I'd consider it myself.


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## robinthehood (Nov 4, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Would have to be a pretty small clubhouse to fit it there wouldn't it?? Yeah, you can't really see lots of people flooding back with their membership if they've settled in somewhere else can you? I imagine Aldenham, West Herts and Radlett would have picked up a lot of their members, who won't be jumping at the chance to move back I shouldn't think. Must take a long time to build up a reasonable membership from scratch.

That said, if membership is cheap when they reopen I'd consider it myself. 

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Exactly,  lots will happily flit from course to course for a good deal.
Me included ðŸ˜‚


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Exactly,  lots will happily flit from course to course for a good deal.
Me included ðŸ˜‚
		
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I get the fact that membership is far more transient than previously and many will go from introductory offer to offer and the days of someone being at a club even 5+ years isn't a given. If a club closes and then reopens then it has to work even harder than already open clubs to attract and retain the members and so everything has to be spot on from day one. If a course is closing and reopening it will be critiqued strongly and everything will cost not insignificant money to be up to scratch.


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## sunshine (Nov 4, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Would have to be a pretty small clubhouse to fit it there wouldn't it?? Yeah, you can't really see lots of people flooding back with their membership if they've settled in somewhere else can you? I imagine Aldenham, West Herts and Radlett would have picked up a lot of their members, who won't be jumping at the chance to move back I shouldn't think. Must take a long time to build up a reasonable membership from scratch.

That said, if membership is cheap when they reopen I'd consider it myself. 

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Yeah I imagine the new clubhouse will be much more modest. Don't they could afford to maintain the old one.

Aldenham, Radlett and Grims Dyke are minutes away and offer a similar product. Stanmore and Pinner Hill are pretty close too. That's 5 courses in a similar price bracket within a 10 min drive. If you're prepared to pay a little more you've got West Herts, Porters Park, Hartsbourne, Batchworth, Sandy Lodge. It's a crowded market, some people will hop around looking for deals but what club can rely on transient members and no stability?


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## HamiltonGuy (Nov 7, 2019)

A number of courses in lanarkshire Hamilton strathaven bothwell Lanark all have joining fees and a number have waiting lists. Think it depends on the quality of courses. Plenty of cheaper alternatives but in a number of instances you get what you pay for


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