# Well said Andrew Neil



## spongebob59 (Nov 20, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=106&v=_eP_9kMmOO0


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2015)

Well posted sponge bob, an excellent video and says what all sound of mind people think.


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## chrisd (Nov 20, 2015)

Pretty well says it all really!


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2015)

*Re: Well said Andrew neil*

Don't always agree with his politics...
In fact rarely do...
But, more or less spot on with this...


FWIW
I believe he now mainly resides in Paris...


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2015)

*Re: Well said Andrew neil*

Well, after hearing on the radio he'd crossed the line I'm more inclined to say he has been quite gentle in his terminology. There has been a suggestion that France may have been a little excessive in their air attacks. Personally, for the the likes of headquarter towns of Raqqa I'd like to see carpet bombing of the like not seen since B-52's visited Vietnam.

And for the yoghurt knitters I'd suggest ordering in a pot of tea and inviting some IS terrorists round to discuss their concerns...


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## Snelly (Nov 20, 2015)

*Re: Well said Andrew neil*

Top man - great speech. 

We can't negotiate with IS - there is no common ground.  We simply need to pulverise them into oblivion wherever they pop up. 

Simultaneously, we must as a nation, start to discuss the true nature of Islam and the necessity for it's modernisation and proper integration of these insular Muslim communities in our cities.


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## delc (Nov 20, 2015)

*Re: Well said Andrew neil*

Have IS issued a fatwah against him yet?!!!   :mmm:


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			And for the yoghurt knitters I'd suggest ordering in a pot of tea and inviting some IS terrorists round to discuss their concerns...
		
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Well, let's see. Iraq2. Well that'll be done and dusted in a couple of weeks. No problem. Oops. 

Afghanistan. Some bombing, some nation building. What could go wrong? Oops. 

Oh dear, looks like removing Saddam has triggered a domino effect in the region and radical Islam and a nuclear Iran has been unleashed. Oops. 

The idea of leaving IS to the regional forces who are basically the cause, e.g. Saudi, is not a left position. Many Conservatives in the US and UK agree and Max Hastings agreed last night on Question Time. 

Those of you who see this as an X Box game need to explain how the west gets out without creating a bigger problem.


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## Rooter (Nov 20, 2015)

Yeh i'm with Ethan here, proceed with caution would be my term to use. Antagonizing and almost poking them with a stick via world media (while i wholly agree with what he says!) May not be the best idea and i am surprised the Beeb let him do it.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Well, let's see. Iraq2. Well that'll be done and dusted in a couple of weeks. No problem. Oops. 

Afghanistan. Some bombing, some nation building. What could go wrong? Oops. 

Oh dear, looks like removing Saddam has triggered a domino effect in the region and radical Islam and a nuclear Iran has been unleashed. Oops. 

The idea of leaving IS to the regional forces who are basically the cause, e.g. Saudi, is not a left position. Many Conservatives in the US and UK agree and Max Hastings agreed last night on Question Time. 

Those of you who see this as an X Box game need to explain how the west gets out without creating a bigger problem.
		
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Do you honestly think I care what someone like you think?


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Do you honestly think I care what someone like you think?
		
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No idea but fortunately I don't give a toss. Please feel free to show your disapproval with a dignified silence from now on. 

Hopefully some others capable of actually thinking about things might read the post though and engage in intelligent debate.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 20, 2015)

*Re: Well said Andrew neil*



delc said:



			Have IS issued a fatwah against him yet?!!!   :mmm:
		
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I nearly choked on my Weetabix., But well said Andrew :thup:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Well, let's see. Iraq2. Well that'll be done and dusted in a couple of weeks. No problem. Oops. 

Afghanistan. Some bombing, some nation building. What could go wrong? Oops. 

Oh dear, looks like removing Saddam has triggered a domino effect in the region and radical Islam and a nuclear Iran has been unleashed. Oops. 

The idea of leaving IS to the regional forces who are basically the cause, e.g. Saudi, is not a left position. Many Conservatives in the US and UK agree and Max Hastings agreed last night on Question Time. 

Those of you who see this as an X Box game need to explain how the west gets out without creating a bigger problem.
		
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And if we stand by and do nothing, then what, for all your words you offer no solution, it's ok being clever and selfrighteous, but no attempt at an answer or solution.


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			And if we stand by and do nothing, then what, for all your words you offer no solution, it's ok being clever and selfrighteous, but no attempt at an answer or solution.
		
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Self righteous? Ha, that is a laugh coming from some of you lot. Nothing self righteous about being unwilling to blunder in, cause chaos and unleash something worse than what you were trying to fix. That has happened several times now in the last couple of decades. Failing to think to through is arrogant and reckless. 

If you put down your Daily Mail for a second, and read my post, you will see that this is a Middle East problem and should be sorted out by countries in the region with an interest. Saudi has an army of a quarter of a million, bigger than the UK, and uses plenty of UK equipment and training. They should sort it out. Then there wouldn't be issues about western Christians continuing a crude against Islam. 

So, smart non self-righteous guy, who demands solutions, what exactly is yours? Have you anything more than 'do something'.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			And if we stand by and do nothing, then what, for all your words you offer no solution, it's ok being clever and selfrighteous, but no attempt at an answer or solution.
		
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Which is the usual case, but always tinged with personal insults.

The sad thing is that a lot of what he says is worth reading and thinking about. It's usually the last two sentences that revert to personal attacks that " turn people off".


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## Snelly (Nov 20, 2015)

I don't see it as an Xbox game but thanks for the typically patronising jibe. 

I do see IS as being like the Nazis - the only thing that will sort them is bullets.  They are vermin and have to be eradicated. 

The root cause is Islam theology - a violent religion, invented by a warrior, that belongs back in the dark ages.  See Sadiq Khan for a properly enlightened view of this.  His opinions are erudite and timely, not least because they cannot be criticised by Guardian reading apologist navel gazers as he is a British Muslim who also happens to be part of the same intelligentsia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...owing-anyone-from-a-different-background.html

You can read the same in the Guardian if you are too wet and prissy to look at the Telegraph website.


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## Sweep (Nov 20, 2015)

An excellent speech and well done for posting!
Sadly, I have to say that those who think this problem can be solved by leaving the IS problem to others are being idealistic and deluding themselves. Yes, I agree that some of the problems we face today in the Middle East are of the Wests making and typically caused by having George W Bush and Tony Blair in power at the same time. A true disaster for our world. However, whilst conflicts like the second Gulf war was unneccesary and misguided, solving the IS problem is not. This is not a Middle East problem. It is everyone's problem and if you don't believe that, then just look where last Friday's tragedy took place. If we don't take the fight to IS, they will bring it to us and are doing so already.
This is actually little to do with religion. We have to accept that some people will turn to evil given any excuse and this is an excuse. This is a good versus evil struggle and it is a duty of every country, every government of decent people to defeat evil where it raises it's ugly head. As they say, evil only succeeds when good men do nothing.
Its time to stop this half hearted attempt at irradication of IS. Stop tying one arm behind our own back. It's laughable that we only air strike in Iraq when IS is mainly in Syria. 
In the last gulf war, There were no weapons of mass destruction, but this time there is a real threat and we have to deal with it, if only to protect our own citizens.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Self righteous? Ha, that is a laugh coming from some of you lot. Nothing self righteous about being unwilling to blunder in, cause chaos and unleash something worse than what you were trying to fix. That has happened several times now in the last couple of decades. Failing to think to through is arrogant and reckless. 

If you put down your Daily Mail for a second, and read my post, you will see that this is a Middle East problem and should be sorted out by countries in the region with an interest. Saudi has an army of a quarter of a million, bigger than the UK, and uses plenty of UK equipment and training. They should sort it out. Then there wouldn't be issues about western Christians continuing a crude against Islam. 

So, smart non self-righteous guy, who demands solutions, what exactly is yours? Have you anything more than 'do something'.
		
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Typical that everyone who has an opposite opinion is a Daily Mail reader, unfortunately being in the Forces for over 35 years I have personally experienced what our blundering in has done to our families and personal friends, hindsight is a wonderful thing, unfortunately we are involved and cannot now simply turn our backs and walk away, it needs both Military action and engagement with the other nations, but do you really see any "talks" with IS, they seem pretty much convinced of their aims and by us westerners pulling out and doing nothing, the attocities will continue.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Which is the usual case, but always tinged with personal insults.

The sad thing is that a lot of what he says is worth reading and thinking about. It's usually the last two sentences that revert to personal attacks that " turn people off".
		
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Tashy, everything he said prior to the last two sentences was no more than historical fact, can't be changed, shouldn't of happened, but just typing them out without offering any solutions is easy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Do you honestly think I care what someone like you think?
		
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That was a very rude reply to a thoughtful post.
A post that many right wing politicians agree with.

The UK foreign/defence policy has been in a right mucking fuddle in the last two decades.
We are a small nation on the edge of the world not the police force at the centre of it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was a very rude reply to a thoughtful post.
A post that many right wing politicians agree with.

The UK foreign/defence policy has been in a right mucking fuddle in the last two decades.
We are a small nation on the edge of the world not the police force at the centre of it.
		
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Why if we say bomb somebody is it right wing, are communists or left wing people not allowed that view, judging his political views on his post, you're just as guilty and you're stating fact, that no one disagrees with, but no comment on how you propose to deal with IS


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2015)

Sweep said:



			An excellent speech and well done for posting!
Sadly, I have to say that those who think this problem can be solved by leaving the IS problem to others are being idealistic and deluding themselves. Yes, I agree that some of the problems we face today in the Middle East are of the Wests making and typically caused by having George W Bush and Tony Blair in power at the same time. A true disaster for our world. However, whilst conflicts like the second Gulf war was unneccesary and misguided, solving the IS problem is not. This is not a Middle East problem. It is everyone's problem and if you don't believe that, then just look where last Friday's tragedy took place. If we don't take the fight to IS, they will bring it to us and are doing so already.
This is actually little to do with religion. We have to accept that some people will turn to evil given any excuse and this is an excuse. This is a good versus evil struggle and it is a duty of every country, every government of decent people to defeat evil where it raises it's ugly head. As they say, evil only succeeds when good men do nothing.
Its time to stop this half hearted attempt at irradication of IS. Stop tying one arm behind our own back. It's laughable that we only air strike in Iraq when IS is mainly in Syria. 
In the last gulf war, There were no weapons of mass destruction, but this time there is a real threat and we have to deal with it, if only to protect our own citizens.
		
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Well written sweep.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Why if we say bomb somebody is it right wing, are communists or left wing people not allowed that view, judging his political views on his post, you're just as guilty and you're stating fact, that no one disagrees with, but no comment on how you propose to deal with IS
		
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If you and Hobbit had actually read Ethan's post you will have seen that he made it quite clear how to deal with IS. I fail to see how you could then say he had no alternative. 
I agree with his thoughts.
After 20 years of getting it wrong we need to try a different strategy.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 20, 2015)

Looks like the UN has made the decision to sanction action against IS .


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you and Hobbit had actually read Ethan's post you will have seen that he made it quite clear how to deal with IS. I fail to see how you could then say he had no alternative. 
I agree with his thoughts.
After 20 years of getting it wrong we need to try a different strategy.
		
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No he didn't make it clear how to deal with it, 3 history lessons finished with oops, then says we should left middle east problems to middle east countries, too late, that horse is bolted, let's say the west pulls out tomorrow, are you saying the middle east countries will step up and IS will give up?
Totally agree the Middle East countries should be more involved, but wasn't the first Gulf War started by one Middle East country invading another.


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## sawtooth (Nov 20, 2015)

Well said , and bravely said.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2015)

Ethan said:



			No idea but fortunately I don't give a toss. Please feel free to show your disapproval with a dignified silence from now on. 

Hopefully some others capable of actually thinking about things might read the post though and engage in intelligent debate.
		
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You do great with many of your replies till you throw in the arrogant insults. I don't see it as an X-box game, I'm not that childish, but nor do I see it wise giving cuddly, yoghurt knitting solutions either... "walk softly but carry a big stick." 

Leave the patronising facetious replies out of it and you might get the dignified debate you crave.


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## chippa1909 (Nov 21, 2015)

Who is helping finance ISIS by buying their oil cheap?


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-19/most-important-question-about-isis-nobody-asking


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## Tashyboy (Nov 21, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			Who is helping finance ISIS by buying their oil cheap?


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-19/most-important-question-about-isis-nobody-asking

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Well found chippa, if the US know who is buying the oil, why have they not done anything about it.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 21, 2015)

Sweep said:



			An excellent speech and well done for posting!
Sadly, I have to say that those who think this problem can be solved by leaving the IS problem to others are being idealistic and deluding themselves. Yes, I agree that some of the problems we face today in the Middle East are of the Wests making and typically caused by having George W Bush and Tony Blair in power at the same time. A true disaster for our world. However, whilst conflicts like the second Gulf war was unneccesary and misguided, solving the IS problem is not. This is not a Middle East problem. It is everyone's problem and if you don't believe that, then just look where last Friday's tragedy took place. If we don't take the fight to IS, they will bring it to us and are doing so already.
This is actually little to do with religion. We have to accept that some people will turn to evil given any excuse and this is an excuse. This is a good versus evil struggle and it is a duty of every country, every government of decent people to defeat evil where it raises it's ugly head. As they say, evil only succeeds when good men do nothing.
Its time to stop this half hearted attempt at irradication of IS. Stop tying one arm behind our own back. It's laughable that we only air strike in Iraq when IS is mainly in Syria. 
In the last gulf war, There were no weapons of mass destruction, but this time there is a real threat and we have to deal with it, if only to protect our own citizens.
		
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Great post this ..

Im possibly gona upset a few now , not my intention ..

WMD were possibly a myth maybe there were some , I don't know .

IS are very real , whether people like it or believe it they are fighting for & defending what they believe , misguided or not someone who is willing to die for what they believe is a dangerous foe .. 


Two options for the west for me now .  
They can stop upsetting the bad people & hopefully they will go away eventually and stop bombing & shooting the innocents of allied countries & go back to their original battles .. slaughtering & killing people on the news,  not our streets .. distance is a numbing agent 

They now can with the backing of the western world align with their allies and go and destroy these people , & I don't just mean in Syria with guns , they gota deal with the enemy within , 
Political correctness has gone to far , we must not swing the full pendulum the opposite way & do a Guantanamo bay on it but time for the people who don't want live by the rules to upsticks & away with ya or face the consequences .. 

I don't have any answers , but all the speaches  in the world mean nothing unless its backed up


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Great post this ..

Im possibly gona upset a few now , not my intention ..

WMD were possibly a myth maybe there were some , I don't know .

IS are very real , whether people like it or believe it they are fighting for & defending what they believe , misguided or not someone who is willing to die for what they believe is a dangerous foe .. 


Two options for the west for me now .  
They can stop upsetting the bad people & hopefully they will go away eventually and stop bombing & shooting the innocents of allied countries & go back to their original battles .. slaughtering & killing people on the news,  not our streets .. distance is a numbing agent 

They now can with the backing of the western world align with their allies and go and destroy these people , & I don't just mean in Syria with guns , they gota deal with the enemy within , 
Political correctness has gone to far , we must not swing the full pendulum the opposite way & do a Guantanamo bay on it but time for the people who don't want live by the rules to upsticks & away with ya or face the consequences .. 

I don't have any answers , but all the speaches  in the world mean nothing unless its backed up
		
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Good post, no easy solution, but doing nothing and putting on blinkers is definitely not the answer.


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## delc (Nov 21, 2015)

IS's treatment of Christian and Shia Muslim minorities in their own patch has been pretty dreadful. Perhaps we should remind them that there are significant numbers of Sunni Muslims living in Western Countries.  Racial and religious tolerance is an important part of modern society and IS should drag itself out of the Dark Ages. Then there would no need to go to war with them.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2015)

I agree with what he said *but* making these statements across world media isn't the way forward. We are going to struggle to eradicate IS across the globe and while I can see the rationale behind the bombing that is going on, events in Paris and Mali and no doubt elsewhere in the months to come, shows they have a worldwide network of followers prepared to die for the cause. How do you target and eradicate these when you have no idea where the next attack is coming from


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2015)

In recent years Boko Haram have murdered many more innocent victims than IS.

As most of their targets are outside Europe does that make them less responsible for worldwide terrorism?
Is an African life worth less than a European one?
Do the UN treat Boko Haram as a lesser evil than IS?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree with what he said *but* making these statements across world media isn't the way forward. We are going to struggle to eradicate IS across the globe and while I can see the rationale behind the bombing that is going on, events in Paris and Mali and no doubt elsewhere in the months to come, shows they have a worldwide network of followers prepared to die for the cause. How do you target and eradicate these when you have no idea where the next attack is coming from
		
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What's is the way forward?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In recent years Boko Haram have murdered many more innocent victims than IS.

As most of their targets are outside Europe does that make them less responsible for worldwide terrorism?
Is an African life worth less than a European one?
Do the UN treat Boko Haram as a lesser evil than IS?
		
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Didn't realise it was a competition to see who was most evil and whose lives are effected more.

I expect if people of Nigeria requested help from UN then they would do something 

If Boko Haram expanded beyond their own borders then the country they attacked would look to UN to sanction action


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In recent years Boko Haram have murdered many more innocent victims than IS.

As most of their targets are outside Europe does that make them less responsible for worldwide terrorism?
Is an African life worth less than a European one?
Do the UN treat Boko Haram as a lesser evil than IS?
		
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Western Nations are fighting Boko Haram alongside African Nations, Every life is equal.


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## Sweep (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In recent years Boko Haram have murdered many more innocent victims than IS.

As most of their targets are outside Europe does that make them less responsible for worldwide terrorism?
Is an African life worth less than a European one?
Do the UN treat Boko Haram as a lesser evil than IS?
		
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As I understand it Boko Haram have sworn allegiance to IS. If so, it's a single problem and should be treated as such.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

As previously mentioned I've been in the Forces over 35 years and have seen/heard/aware of some horrible things, Totally agree Military Action should be a very last resort, also agree with Ethan and others we have blundered in to conflicts with no exit strategy or post war plan. But and it's a mighty but, to me there are instances in history were you are left with no choice, you have to go on the offensive and take action, IS is like nothing we've ever seen, they see it as their job to eradicate westerners, there's no sitting round a table and talking peace, they're not interested, 
We must keep up the pressure and get other Arab/Muslim Nations involved, strangle their logistic tail and finish them off.
The only down side to what Andrew Neil said is that it was him and not a World Leader. Everyday Muslims are against IS and what they stand for, we should stand with them and work from both sides, Hobbit put it well, tread softly and carry a big stick.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn't realise it was a competition to see who was most evil and whose lives are effected more.

I expect if people of Nigeria requested help from UN then they would do something 

If Boko Haram expanded beyond their own borders then the country they attacked would look to UN to sanction action
		
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What border would that be?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What border would that be?
		
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What do you think ? 

You do know that UN forces are helping out against Boko Harum as well ? 

It's not some sort of competition


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Great post this ..

Im possibly gona upset a few now , not my intention ..

WMD were possibly a myth maybe there were some , I don't know .

IS are very real , whether people like it or believe it they are fighting for & defending what they believe , misguided or not someone who is willing to die for what they believe is a dangerous foe .. 


Two options for the west for me now .  
They can stop upsetting the bad people & hopefully they will go away eventually and stop bombing & shooting the innocents of allied countries & go back to their original battles .. slaughtering & killing people on the news,  not our streets .. distance is a numbing agent 

They now can with the backing of the western world align with their allies and go and destroy these people , & I don't just mean in Syria with guns , they gota deal with the enemy within , 
Political correctness has gone to far , we must not swing the full pendulum the opposite way & do a Guantanamo bay on it but time for the people who don't want live by the rules to upsticks & away with ya or face the consequences .. 

I don't have any answers , *but all the speaches  in the world mean nothing unless its backed up*

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Indeed, and I assume that applies to your speech too. In this case, backed up with a coherent plan.

Some people have compared IS to the Nazis. Not a good companion. The Nazis wore uniforms and marched together a lot. IS are a guerrilla band who can melt away into the population. Not so easy to target. Lots of potential for collateral damage. 

If the Middle East conflicts have taught us anything it is that the old refrain that things couldn't possibly be any worse if [these guys] were removed is often wrong. Things have shown a nasty habit of getting much worse with each well (or not)-intentioned blunder. The worst of all may be Iran and their nuclear ambitions precipitating Israel to do something reckless. 

I haven't been keeping up with all the thread, so has anyone answered the question of why Saudi, with a military bigger and better funded than the UK, and a Sunni Muslim ideology, can't sort out these Sunni IS guys themselves?


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I haven't been keeping up with all the thread, so has anyone answered the question of why Saudi, with a military bigger and better funded than the UK, and a Sunni Muslim ideology, can't sort out these Sunni IS guys themselves?
		
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Because they don't want to? Wouldn't surprise me if Saudi were funding ISIS.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2015)

Lets see what the BBC think......

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-small-revision-of-history/#more-78909

Can't say that I have not warned you about their 'selective' reporting.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Well for one they don't have the skills or expirence 

They maybe more equipped and bigger but that doesn't make them capable of tackling IS

IS should be tackled by both western nations , Middle East nations , Russia and even China - they effect of IS is more than just jn the Middle East now and they will continue to damage and cause terror all over the world 

IS are an enemy not seen before and it will need clever tactics and cooperation between many countries but they need to be tackled and it needs to be by force 

Sit back and their reign of terror will increase


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Because they don't want to? Wouldn't surprise me if Saudi were funding ISIS.
		
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Exactly. So until the west changes their relationship with Saudi, this will be a series of never ending interventions all doomed to failure.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lets see what the BBC think......

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-small-revision-of-history/#more-78909

Can't say that I have not warned you about their 'selective' reporting.
		
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Is that really the most important factor in all this 

Forget innocent lives being lost all over the world 

Let's have some bitter Scottish Anti English Website concentrate on a BBC reporter saying the wrong thing 

How pathetic is that website - even more so when someone treats it as gospel


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Because they don't want to? Wouldn't surprise me if Saudi were funding ISIS.
		
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Their Royal family is strongly linked to Religious leaders, there are plenty of reports of Saudi Arabia arresting IS supporters(whether correct or not I don't know). The religious fanaticism is similar though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Exactly. So until the west changes their relationship with Saudi, this will be a series of never ending interventions all doomed to failure.
		
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What relationship is that ?

The one where UK forces are trainjng Saudi forces to improve their ability as a fighting force ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do you think ? 

You do know that UN forces are helping out against Boko Harum as well ? 

It's not some sort of competition
		
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I was just interested to know your what definition of Boko Haram's border was?


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lets see what the BBC think......

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-small-revision-of-history/#more-78909

Can't say that I have not warned you about their 'selective' reporting.
		
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So our enemy's enemy is also our enemy? 

This was also the problem in Afghanistan in the 80s. The west covertly supported the Mujahideen against the Russians. OK, the Mujahideen were a bunch of Islamic nutcase, but the Russians were commies, so that's all right then. What could go wrong with that plan? The Taliban, that's what. And that leads directly to Al Qaeda and IS too.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Exactly. So until the west changes their relationship with Saudi, this will be a series of never ending interventions all doomed to failure.
		
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Seems convenient not to have caught up on the thread and responded to answers you have been given and single out the one point you believe hasn't, maybe Saudi don't see IS as a threat so why should they get involved?
Why single out Saudi Arabia when there are other Middle East countries not involved?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lets see what the BBC think......

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-small-revision-of-history/#more-78909

Can't say that I have not warned you about their 'selective' reporting.
		
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Not 100% correct is it, the rebels against Assad split in to 2 factions, one of them, IS, also then tried to create the IS State spreading through Iraq, which was just a tad over the Syrian border. So stating we were supporting IS is not factually correct.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			So our enemy's enemy is also our enemy? 

This was also the problem in Afghanistan in the 80s. The west covertly supported the Mujahideen against the Russians. OK, the Mujahideen were a bunch of Islamic nutcase, but the Russians were commies, so that's all right then. What could go wrong with that plan? The Taliban, that's what. And that leads directly to Al Qaeda and IS too.
		
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Shall we go all the way back to the crusades as well ? Or even further to possible fights between cavemen ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			So our enemy's enemy is also our enemy? 

This was also the problem in Afghanistan in the 80s. The west covertly supported the Mujahideen against the Russians. OK, the Mujahideen were a bunch of Islamic nutcase, but the Russians were commies, so that's all right then. What could go wrong with that plan? The Taliban, that's what. And that leads directly to Al Qaeda and IS too.
		
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You asked for sensible debate, but you keep reminding us of past mistakes but offer nothing about the question, how do we learn from history and withdraw at the same time? And do you seriously believe if the west withdraws IS will settle down?


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## delc (Nov 21, 2015)

Perhaps we should send Jeremy Corbyn out to Syria/Iraq to reason with IS?  :mmm:


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 21, 2015)

delc said:



			Perhaps we should send Jeremy Corbyn out to Syria/Iraq to reason with IS?  :mmm:
		
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he can go with George Galloway


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## Tashyboy (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			So our enemy's enemy is also our enemy? 

This was also the problem in Afghanistan in the 80s. The west covertly supported the Mujahideen against the Russians. OK, the Mujahideen were a bunch of Islamic nutcase, but the Russians were commies, so that's all right then. What could go wrong with that plan? The Taliban, that's what. And that leads directly to Al Qaeda and IS too.
		
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Read an excellent book called ghost force by a guy called " lofty large" ex glorious glosters and SAS. He talks about all the conflicts he has served in, the governments stance and why the SAS went in.
The last conflict he served in was the Afghan war. He finished the afghan conflict by saying " only time will tell whether the Taliban government installed with help from the west is better than the government installed by the Russians".


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Not 100% correct is it
		
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The understatement of the year when it comes to "wings"


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			What's is the way forward?
		
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Now there's the million dollar question. To be honest I've no idea but do think IS needs to be eliminated as much as possible and for it to be made as hard as possible for them to work effectively and to recruit new members. I don't know how you go about that, other than through the ways being employed, increased and shared intelligence and a lot of co-operation


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The understatement of the year when it comes to "wings"
		
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To be honest and excuse my ignorance, genuinely never heard of "wings" before that post&#128515;


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			To be honest and excuse my ignorance, genuinely never heard of "wings" before that post&#128515;
		
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It's Doons bible - very much anti BBC and anti English 

Some suggest that it was very much the go to website for the correct facts during the independence campaign - obviously there is a very small minority believing that


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## User20205 (Nov 21, 2015)

The irony is everyone wants decisive action but no one has the stomach for the reality & attempting to bomb them into oblivion whilst being covered by CNN is the greatest recruitment advert they have. 

As western troops in the ground is neither a political or economic reality, the only way is a half baked compromise with troops from the locality & western airpower.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2015)

therod said:



			The irony is everyone wants decisive action but no one has the stomach for the reality & attempting to bomb them into oblivion whilst being covered by CNN is the greatest recruitment advert they have. 

As western troops in the ground is neither a political or economic reality, the only way is a half baked compromise with troops from the locality & western airpower.
		
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It is a compromise but I agree, one that hardly seems destined to bring long terms success. How can you see that playing out?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

therod said:



			The irony is everyone wants decisive action but no one has the stomach for the reality & attempting to bomb them into oblivion whilst being covered by CNN is the greatest recruitment advert they have. 

As western troops in the ground is neither a political or economic reality, the only way is a half baked compromise with troops from the locality & western airpower.
		
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I agree with the second paragraph, but part of the problem with the first is, we can't bomb everywhere they are, they disappear into general population.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree with the second paragraph, but part of the problem with the first is, we can't bomb everywhere they are, they disappear into general population.
		
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That's the problem. They dissipate into normal life and do we really have the intelligence in these areas to weed them out. Do the local populations in whichever nation (they are worldwide) really think there is sufficient value, reward and justification in helping the West?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			To be honest and excuse my ignorance, genuinely never heard of "wings" before that post&#128515;
		
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It is the Scottish deterrent to The Telegraph and Daily Mail. :lol:

It makes life difficult for 'the establishment' with posts such as the one I just posted about the BBC's top political pundit getting something so 'unbelievably wrong'. [Despite having a wall of scriptwriters and editors behind him].

The BNP/EDL/SDL/UKIP/Rangers Supporter types really hate it.


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## User20205 (Nov 21, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It is a compromise but I agree, one that hardly seems destined to bring long terms success. How can you see that playing out?
		
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I reckon we'll (the west) will broker an agreement with Russia that Assad can stay as part of a transition. They'll pump hardware & maybe troops in to Syria. IS will be squeezed out into the margins. Assads clan will be strengthened and continue in power. He'll go into a sort of retirement. 

The big losers will be the 'average' Syrian. Peace will be kept by a 'strong' dictator, and all the fundo's will go back to afganistan, which will fall under taliban control again & we start the process again.  

I strongly believe we will have to get used to living under the threat of terrorist attack both internal and external.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is the Scottish deterrent to The Telegraph and Daily Mail. :lol:

It makes life difficult for 'the establishment' with posts such as the one I just posted about the BBC's top political pundit getting something so 'unbelievably wrong'. [Despite having a wall of scriptwriters and editors behind him].

The BNP/EDL/SDL/UKIP/Rangers Supporter types really hate it.
		
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I fall into none of the types you mention yet find it a pathetic site 

It's pathetic that right now they are focused on the BBC whilst innocent lives are being lost - even more so that you reprint their tripe on here


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## Tashyboy (Nov 21, 2015)

I remember a thread about immigration and I stated I would like to see every country in the EU get involved to try and solve the problem.
 That seems a piece of cake when you consider that (for me) the only way to defeat IS is to get the US, Europe, Russia, China ( now they have had a citizen beheaded) and Middle East countries around a table. 
Cannot see it happening in the near future.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I fall into none of the types you mention yet find it a pathetic site 

It's pathetic that right now they are focused on the BBC whilst innocent lives are being lost - even more so that you reprint their tripe on here
		
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I never knew you followed Rangers phil&#128513;


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## User20205 (Nov 21, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			I remember a thread about immigration and I stated I would like to see every country in the EU get involved to try and solve the problem.
 That seems a piece of cake when you consider that (for me) the only way to defeat IS is to get the US, Europe, Russia, China ( now they have had a citizen beheaded) and Middle East countries around a table. 
Cannot see it happening in the near future.
		
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The other side affect will be an end to the free movement of people across Europe. IMO.

It's impossible to combat terrorism with open borders.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I fall into none of the types you mention yet find it a pathetic site 

It's pathetic that right now they are focused on the BBC whilst innocent lives are being lost - even more so that you reprint their tripe on here
		
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If you lock away the red mist and mind set for just a nano second I think you will find that the article was about John Humphreys giving out false information on the BBC about a government vote to bomb a country.
If you find that pathetic then more fool you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you lock away the red mist and mind set for just a nano second I think you will find that the article was about John Humphreys giving out false information on the BBC about a government vote to bomb a country.
If you find that pathetic then more fool you.
		
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I find it an error being made by a Journo - a simple error and not worth worrying about when people are losing their lives 

But that wouldn't sit well with "wings" campaign against the BBC which has been waged since the independent vote was a no.


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Read an excellent book called ghost force by a guy called " lofty large" ex glorious glosters and SAS. He talks about all the conflicts he has served in, the governments stance and why the SAS went in.
The last conflict he served in was the Afghan war. He finished the afghan conflict by saying " only time will tell whether the Taliban government installed with help from the west is better than the government installed by the Russians".
		
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I think the jury is now in.

The Americans have this paranoid fear of commies, and in Afghanistan and Latin America is has blinded them into allowing much worse to happen instead.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I think the jury is now in.

The Americans have this paranoid fear of commies, and in Afghanistan and Latin America is has blinded them into allowing much worse to happen instead.
		
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Have you been to Afghanistan to see all the good work that has been done ?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you lock away the red mist and mind set for just a nano second I think you will find that the article was about John Humphreys giving out false information on the BBC about a government vote to bomb a country.
If you find that pathetic then more fool you.
		
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What about an article on Wings giving false information about who the UK forces would be on the same side as? UK forces would have been supporting rebels fighting against Assad. It wasn't until later that the rebel factions split and one part began fighting under the banner of IS so UK forces would not have been fighting on the same side as IS and I think it's pathetic that you are constantly pushing such a blatantly anti BBC and anti UK agenda.


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Seems convenient not to have caught up on the thread and responded to answers you have been given and single out the one point you believe hasn't, maybe Saudi don't see IS as a threat so why should they get involved?
Why single out Saudi Arabia when there are other Middle East countries not involved?
		
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I have answered plenty already. You have a lot of questions yourself.

On Saudi, it is the heartland of the Sunni branch of Islam, the same branch as IS, and has a lot of influence in the area. It is also heavily courted and supported by the US and Europe so could act as a regional proxy, and it is sufficiently wealthy and capable to take action regionally. In doing so, it could others along with them, for example it has decent relations with both Iran and Israel who are two other key dominos in the complicated local politics. Saudi is also pretty stable (if rather repressive) and not vulnerable to a coup or other major change anytime soon. 

Any answers or insight from you?


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you been to Afghanistan to see all the good work that has been done ?
		
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No, but I know people who have been involved in civilian reconstruction. 

However the reconstruction might not have been needed had the US and Europe not covertly supported the Taliban against the pro-Soviet leader, who was a secular moderniser. Ironically, the US, UK and others supported people who could be called terrorists, and were guerrilla fighters almost exactly like IS. History does tend to have a sense of irony sometimes.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you lock away the red mist and mind set for just a nano second I think you will find that the article was about John Humphreys giving out false information on the BBC about a government vote to bomb a country.
If you find that pathetic then more fool you.
		
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Cant' actually see why this is causing such a fuss. It simply picks up and highlights a rather large and crucial error.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I have answered plenty already. You have a lot of questions yourself.

On Saudi, it is the heartland of the Sunni branch of Islam, the same branch as IS, and has a lot of influence in the area. It is also heavily courted and supported by the US and Europe so could act as a regional proxy, and it is sufficiently wealthy and capable to take action regionally. In doing so, it could others along with them, for example it has decent relations with both Iran and Israel who are two other key dominos in the complicated local politics. Saudi is also pretty stable (if rather repressive) and not vulnerable to a coup or other major change anytime soon. 

Any answers or insight from you?
		
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So you still avoid the question, What do we do until Saudi Arabia get involved, if ever?
I have agreed with you on your historical posts that we've blundered in, I have stated we need all countries in the Region involved.
You haven't answered the above, What do we do in the mean time?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			No, but I know people who have been involved in civilian reconstruction. 

However the reconstruction might not have been needed had the US and Europe not covertly supported the Taliban against the pro-Soviet leader, who was a secular moderniser. Ironically, the US, UK and others supported people who could be called terrorists, and were guerrilla fighters almost exactly like IS. History does tend to have a sense of irony sometimes.
		
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How far back do you want to go ? Crusades ?

But you haven't been there and haven't seen the schools created , the hospitals created , the trade being started , shops and streets thriving with business - it's not perfect and there is still a long way to go but a lot of good has been done by the UK and US forces over there 

So the jury is very much not back. 

But you can keep focusing on history and blame  - that can't be changed - the future can be


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Cant' actually see why this is causing such a fuss. It simply picks up and highlights a rather large and crucial error.
		
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Whether it's a large and crucial error it is irrelevant to the thread.


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How far back do you want to go ? Crusades ?

But you haven't been there and haven't seen the schools created , the hospitals created , the trade being started , shops and streets thriving with business - it's not perfect and there is still a long way to go but a lot of good has been done by the UK and US forces over there 

So the jury is very much not back. 

But you can keep focusing on history and blame  - that can't be changed - the future can be
		
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Have you never heard the expression that if you fail to learn from history, you are doomed to relive it?

There is no better example of that than the Middle East in which western interference only ever causes more trouble. 

And the relevant comparison point for Afghanistan is not between the middle of the recent conflict to now, but from the 80s to the middle of the conflict. Both are history, you just choose which frame of reference suits your argument.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Have you never heard the expression that if you fail to learn from history, you are doomed to relive it?

There is no better example of that than the Middle East in which western interference only ever causes more trouble. 

And the relevant comparison point for Afghanistan is not between the middle of the recent conflict to now, but from the 80s to the middle of the conflict. Both are history, you just choose which frame of reference suits your argument.
		
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What I chose to do is concntrate on the future instead of delving back into the past and dragging history to look for blame 

Afghanistan from my expirence is a better place at the moment than it was in 2002 and can continue to improve and thrive. 

What happened in the 80's happened - can't change that now but the future can be changed


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The BNP/EDL/SDL/UKIP/Rangers Supporter types really hate it.
		
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Hugely disappointed and a bit hurt by this post. Totally uncalled for, try to keep your hatred out of it for a change.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 21, 2015)

I only gave an opinion , was not making a speech , wouldn't know enough about it to preach , I did find it  very strange you only highlighted half of the last line tho , you didn't bother with the  "I don't have any answers " part .. 

Anyhow will  leave it at that ..



Ethan said:



Indeed, and I assume that applies to your speech too. In this case, backed up with a coherent plan.

Some people have compared IS to the Nazis. Not a good companion. The Nazis wore uniforms and marched together a lot. IS are a guerrilla band who can melt away into the population. Not so easy to target. Lots of potential for collateral damage. 

If the Middle East conflicts have taught us anything it is that the old refrain that things couldn't possibly be any worse if [these guys] were removed is often wrong. Things have shown a nasty habit of getting much worse with each well (or not)-intentioned blunder. The worst of all may be Iran and their nuclear ambitions precipitating Israel to do something reckless. 

I haven't been keeping up with all the thread, so has anyone answered the question of why Saudi, with a military bigger and better funded than the UK, and a Sunni Muslim ideology, can't sort out these Sunni IS guys themselves?
		
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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What I chose to do is concntrate on the future instead of delving back into the past and dragging history to look for blame 

Afghanistan from my expirence is a better place at the moment than it was in 2002 and can continue to improve and thrive. 

What happened in the 80's happened - can't change that now but the future can be changed
		
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Thanks. I have seen Back to the Future, but despite the convincing story, I generally agree that the past can't be changed. 

However, as I said, it contains important lessons which should not be ignored. Yet they often are, and the hole is dug even deeper.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Thanks. I have seen Back to the Future, but despite the convincing story, I generally agree that the past can't be changed. 

However, as I said, it contains important lessons which should not be ignored. Yet they often are, and the hole is dug even deeper.
		
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Still waiting for you to answer the questions about the here and now!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

Bombing Daesh - Notwithstanding I can see no framework for the bombing that is even now being done - friends, allies, enemy, objectives, what after?  etc - the current impetus and UN resolution has been driven by the Paris atrocities.  And we in UK feel that joiing in the bombing will in some way reduce the probability of UK being so attacked.

Well I fear that the UK *will* almost certainly suffer such an attack - as the enemy who will perpetrate this is largely within or will arrive unnoticed - it is not in Syria or Iraq.  The bombing will therefore, by definition, have failed to protect us in the UK - indeed our involvement in the bombing may well have been the driver for the attack we will suffer rather than a deterrent (bombing is not a deterrent in the way that Trident may be).

The we have arming our police as I heard one radio presenter loudly advocate yesterday evening - arm our police like the French police are armed.  Well that worked well didn't it.

Maybe the truth is that we can't stop attacks on the UK by any action abroad.  We can definitely through ground forces -  not necessarily involving UK - limit the spread of Daesh - and then in time drive into a hole where they can be destroyed.  

But as far as reducing the risk of atrocity in the UK? - I think our answer may simply/only be in the hands of such as the immigrant Syrian community.  Were we to welcome that community in good numbers with love and caring, and provide all support we can - that community will be on our side - and the more they feel part of us that is themselves also.  And they can be our eyes and ears on the ground and in their communities - identifying and handing over those rogue elements that they suspect as being a risk to us all. After all we aren't going to have many 'bobbies on the beat' if projected government police funding cutbacks due to be announced next week are anything to go by.


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Still waiting for you to answer the questions about the here and now!
		
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Still waiting on you to say anything other than a question or a snarky remark. I have stated my position pretty clearly. You have only taken potshots at me and others.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Still waiting on you to say anything other than a question or a snarky remark. I have stated my position pretty clearly. You have only taken potshots at me and others.
		
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Garbage, I've have not taken potshots at anyone, I have answered every question you have asked, you're the one asking for a healthy debate then ignoreing the same question over and over again, my belief is that's because you have no answer and choose to deflect and insult me.
One last time, What do we do about IS while we wait for other Middle East countries to get involved?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Garbage, I've have not taken potshots at anyone, I have answered every question you have asked, you're the one asking for a healthy debate then ignoreing the same question over and over again, my belief is that's because you have no answer and choose to deflect and insult me.
One last time, *What do we do about IS while we wait for other Middle East countries to get involved*?
		
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We, the UK, need do nothing militarily other than provide such as intelligence and logistical support.  Getting involved with air strikes using four Tornado aircraft seems to me to be no more than the UK not wanting to be 'left out' - I do not believe our involvement in airstrikes or not will make any difference to any military outcome or to our 'standing' in the international community - whatever that is in any case -  and should only be considered at all when there is much more clarity about what air strikes are intended to achieve, and who our friends and enemies actually are.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We, the UK, need do nothing militarily other than provide such as intelligence and logistical support.  Getting involved with air strikes using four Tornado aircraft seems to me to be no more than the UK not wanting to be 'left out' - I do not believe our involvement in airstrikes or not will make any difference to any military outcome or to our 'standing' in the international community - whatever that is in any case -  and should only be considered at all when there is much more clarity about what air strikes are intended to achieve, and who our friends and enemies actually are.
		
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No issue with anything you suggest, unlike some, you are willing to try and help, whether that is exactly the way you describe or helping in another way, but to do zip because we've got it wrong in the past, imo is not the answer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

Article in today's _*l*_ newspaper on first 100 Syrians going to be housed in Rothesay on the Isle of Bute.  Loving that the article is accompanied by a great big photo of ... Tobermory


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			No issue with anything you suggest, unlike some, you are willing to try and help, whether that is exactly the way you describe or helping in another way, but to do zip because we've got it wrong in the past, imo is not the answer.
		
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We cannot stop military action by the USA, France and Russia - so we may as well try help make their action as effective as possible - which in truth will not be very effective without boots on the ground.  That said I'm not actually that comfortable with us supporting bombing even through intelligence.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We cannot stop military action by the USA, France and Russia - so we may as well try help make their action as effective as possible - which in truth will not be very effective without boots on the ground.  That said I'm not actually that comfortable with us supporting bombing even through intelligence.
		
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Me neither, but the world cannot simply pull out, wait for Middle East countries to do something and see if IS go away.


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## Sweep (Nov 22, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I think the jury is now in.

The Americans have this paranoid fear of commies, and in Afghanistan and Latin America is has blinded them into allowing much worse to happen instead.
		
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Ah, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?
The Russians going into Afganistan was the biggest worry by far at the time and actually went some way to justify "America's paranoia of communism". Remember, this was an invasion of a peaceful nation by the biggest country on earth. Totally unnecessary and unjustified. At the time no-one understood why the Russians had done it other than expansion of communism. Much of it turned out to be to test the west's reaction, a kind of bigger example of continually threatening our air space today. If the Americans had done nothing, it could have turned out to be much worse. Islamic Terrorism had not even been conceived at the time. What the Americans and to a lesser extent the rest of NATO did over 40 years, led to the downfall of communism and more freedom for millions. I appreciate that may go against your own political views, but it's pretty clear the majority of those in the west don't want to live in a communist country, and in a democracy that's what counts. Thank God.
Yes, we and the Americans got some things wrong, but in 1989 the argument was won when the Berlin Wall came down. I will be eternally grateful, not least because it allows me to post my opinions on here. As they say, I may disagree with your opinions, but I will fight for your right to express them.
Also, if you are not going to read the thread and others answers to your posts, why bother posting?


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## delc (Nov 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Article in today's _*l*_ newspaper on first 100 Syrians going to be housed in Rothesay on the Isle of Bute.  Loving that the article is accompanied by a great big photo of ... Tobermory 

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Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands!  :mmm:


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## User20205 (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands!  :mmm:
		
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You seem semi educated. How is it you can't grasp the different between refugees & migrants


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands!  :mmm:
		
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Del once again you fail to realise that these Syrians are not here because they want to be, they are fleeing for their very lives, the UK has agreed to take refugees from the UN refugee camps , these are not economic migrants.

But why The Isle of Bute? hardly going to integrate with society, or find it easy to get jobs, seems a silly place to put them


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands!  :mmm:
		
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This is why they can't just go home. These people have lost everything and are fleeing for their lives.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands!  :mmm:
		
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You never fail to disgust me with some of your posts,


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## richy (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands!  :mmm:
		
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That sounds more fitting for you


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## delc (Nov 22, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is why they can't just go home. These people have lost everything and are fleeing for their lives.

View attachment 17683

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So they say! I am sure that at least a small percentage of them are IS jehadists, deliberately planted for future terrorist attacks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			So they say! I am sure that at least a small percentage of them are IS jehadists, deliberately planted for future terrorist attacks.
		
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The level of tripe that you post increases on a daily basis 

It's disgusting some of the stuff you post - attitude from the 60's


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands!  :mmm:
		
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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=778713568924775&id=628391733956960&ref=bookmarks

Delc.......Here is a wee lesson for you, from a 21 year old, on how a decent human being should think.
BTW I take it you have never been to Rothesay, it sits on the gulf stream, has palm trees and is just over an hour from Glasgow.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=778713568924775&id=628391733956960&ref=bookmarks

Delc.......Here is a wee lesson for you, from a 21 year old, on how a decent human being should think.
BTW I take it you have never been to Rothesay, it sits on the gulf stream, has palm trees and is just over an hour from Glasgow.
		
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Nice words, but not everyone in Scotland feels the same, read the comments answering the post, not as straightforward as you make out, lot's of decent, law-abiding people are scared and worried, it doesn't make them racist, Delc on the other hand.........


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Nice words, but not everyone in Scotland feels the same, read the comments answering the post, not as straightforward as you make out, lot's of decent, law-abiding people are scared and worried, it doesn't make them racist, Delc on the other hand.........
		
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Perhaps you did not spot the 'likes' to the posts......puts it in perspective. Roughly 20,000+ in support and 200+ not in support.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2015)

delc said:



			So they say! I am sure that at least a small percentage of them are IS jehadists, deliberately planted for future terrorist attacks.
		
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Sorry Delc but this is inflammatory at best, but downright ignorant and insensitive in light of recent events


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps you did not spot the 'likes' to the posts......puts it in perspective. Roughly 20,000+ in support and 200+ not in support.
		
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I did, I'm not disagreeing with the post, just we shoukdn't ignore the genuine fears some have, it also takes more guts to respond in writing to the post than simply pressing a like button.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=778713568924775&id=628391733956960&ref=bookmarks

Delc.......Here is a wee lesson for you, from a 21 year old, on how a decent human being should think.
BTW I take it you have never been to Rothesay, it sits on the gulf stream, has palm trees and is just over an hour from Glasgow.
		
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Shame this little comment was added in there though - *When we have a Westminster Government so determined to do ill by people*


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## MegaSteve (Nov 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Shame this little comment was added in there though - *When we have a Westminster Government so determined to do ill by people*

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Thought it was understood that if there wasn't any anti Westminster/London/South East content...

Then a) Doon wouldn't be reading it or b) posting it...


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## Backache (Nov 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW I take it you have never been to Rothesay, it sits on the gulf stream, has palm trees and is just over an hour from Glasgow.
		
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Butes a nice place but nearer an hour and a half and a wee bit more now the ferry terminal is bust any you have to take the longer trip from Gourock.
Not really massive employment opportunities unfortunately.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Thought it was understood that if there wasn't any anti Westminster/London/South East content...

Then a) Doon wouldn't be reading it or b) posting it...
		
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Slightly sad bit of nitpicking by you and Phil on a bit of enlightenment by a young politician. 
As a British MP do you not agree that she is entitled to an opinion.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Slightly sad bit of nitpicking by you and Phil on a bit of enlightenment by a young politician. 
As a British MP do you not agree that she is entitled to an opinion.
		
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I am no lover of Westminster myself but when the representatives of the SNP start to include [as they appear to enjoy doing so] Londoners into their rhetoric they can climb back under the rock from which they crawled...


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Slightly sad bit of nitpicking by you and Phil on a bit of enlightenment by a young politician. 
As a British MP do you not agree that she is entitled to an opinion.
		
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She seems to have the delights of your same sort of bitterness towards England/Westminster etc etc 

So it's a rather bitter remark from her - you must have taught her well


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 22, 2015)

Gents can we stop the sniping, it is getting rather predictable and boring

Thank you


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## chippa1909 (Nov 22, 2015)

Worth a watch..Discussion of US policy from Senate Armed Services Commitee.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQwofJEQ6ng


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			Worth a watch..Discussion of US policy from Senate Armed Services Commitee.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQwofJEQ6ng

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Watched this the other day. Nice to hear sceptic polititians talking some sense.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2015)

12 pages and the wise sages have not mentioned Israel, interesting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2015)

Backache said:



			Butes a nice place but nearer an hour and a half and a wee bit more now the ferry terminal is bust any you have to take the longer trip from Gourock.
Not really massive employment opportunities unfortunately.
		
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and it isn't anywhere near Tobermory - which also has limited employment opportunity.


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## delc (Nov 23, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry Delc but this is inflammatory at best, but downright ignorant and insensitive in light of recent events
		
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Can I point out that the people who carried out the terrorist attacks in Paris were already resident there or in Brussels. Also, even if we can prove that migrants are genuine and not Jehadi terrorists, can we guarantee that their disaffected offsprings will not be radicalised by Muslim hate preachers in a few years time (e.g. Jehadi John)?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2015)

delc said:



			Can I point out that the people who carried out the terrorist attacks in Paris were already resident there or in Brussels. Also, even if we can prove that migrants are genuine and not Jehadi terrorists, can we guarantee that their disaffected offsprings will not be radicalised by Muslim hate preachers in a few years time (e.g. Jehadi John)?
		
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Why not come up with an end to poverty, world hunger and affordable and sustainable energy resources for. Surely simpler tasks to undertake and to be honest the response still doesn't justify the initial comment imo. That's just how I see it


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## delc (Nov 23, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			Worth a watch..Discussion of US policy from Senate Armed Services Commitee.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQwofJEQ6ng

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Seems that the American military are a bit confused in their aims. No change there then! With friends like America, who needs enemies!

P.S. Tony Blair acting as George W Bush's poodle in promoting the war against Iraq was another reason for the Middle-Eastern Arabs to hate us.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 23, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			12 pages and the wise sages have not mentioned Israel, interesting.
		
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Ah... The Galloway theory...

Similar to the Daily Mail [aka Delc] theory... Blame anything/everything on one group/incident...


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## delc (Nov 23, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Ah... The Galloway theory...

Similar to the Daily Mail [aka Delc] theory... Blame anything/everything on one group/incident...
		
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Please don't associate me in any way with the views of the Daily Mail!  :angry:


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2015)

delc said:



			Please don't associate me in any way with the views of the Daily Mail!  :angry:
		
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A lot of your views come straight out of the mail - especially on immigration


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Ah... The Galloway theory...

Similar to the Daily Mail [aka Delc] theory... Blame anything/everything on one group/incident...
		
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More like the Middle East theory.  Saudi and Iran are sworn enemies' of the Israelis' and while America are their best mates the chances of getting them into a coalition to assist with the current Middle East mess makes it a tad difficult.


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2015)

delc said:



			Please don't associate me in any way with the views of the Daily Mail!  :angry:
		
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2nd largest circulation in the UK yet nobody reads it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 23, 2015)

Spot on.
Have you seen their circulation figures:lol:


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## tsped83 (Nov 23, 2015)

Amateur golfers setting the world to rights. Clearly the answer to the IS problem is the GM Forum. We should probably invite them to this thread and in the end they'd probably pack up sticks and go home, thinking we're not worth it after all.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			Amateur golfers setting the world to rights. Clearly the answer to the IS problem is the GM Forum. We should probably invite them to this thread and in the end they'd probably pack up sticks and go home, thinking we're not worth it after all.
		
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Bit of fun or bit serious, are we not allowed opinions as amateur golfers?


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## tsped83 (Nov 23, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit of fun or bit serious, are we not allowed opinions as amateur golfers?

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More power to you. It's perhaps not the subject I was mocking, rather the playground antics of back and forth jibes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2015)

tsped83 said:



			More power to you. It's perhaps not the subject I was mocking, rather the playground antics of back and forth jibes.
		
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Totally agree on that one, it wouldn't be fun if it wasn't for the falling out and upset.


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## mikevet (Nov 23, 2015)

While I can sympathise with Andrew Neil's response to the Paris atrocities, I think that the best response by far was the dignified statement made by the French husband of one of the deceased victims. His reaction to them was both strong and moving and, in my view, perfectly judged.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2015)

mikevet said:



			While I can sympathise with Andrew Neil's response to the Paris atrocities, I think that the best response by far was the dignified statement made by the French husband of one of the deceased victims. His reaction to them was both strong and moving and, in my view, perfectly judged.
		
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Totally agree. Sadly I can see another widow/widower doing the same thing, possibly even from the UK soon. They won't give up or go away.


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