# Initial handicap too low?



## Trodski (Mar 8, 2019)

Hi All,

Long time lurker, first time poster. 

Just after some advice on my new handicap allocation. Bit of background, I have played for three years or so but never joined a club. I keep record of a handicap on the swing by swing app on my phone which is currently 15.2. I've recently had four or five lessons and put a bit of practice in and have seen some pretty solid improvements pretty quickly.

I have recently joined a club so my question is what do you think my handicap should be based on the following 3 cards?

89, sss 71. Fairly calm day
85, sss 71, Fairly calm day
85, sss 71, 15-20mph winds

Let's see if someone can guess and then I'll let you know what it is.


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## IainP (Mar 8, 2019)

11


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2019)

10/11 would be a good guess - also depends on the make up of rounds


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## Homer (Mar 8, 2019)

12


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## williamalex1 (Mar 8, 2019)

Any triple bogeys ?


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## Trodski (Mar 8, 2019)

I'll tell you the makeup of the two 85 rounds;

1 birdie, 8 pars, 4 bogeys, 4 doubles, 1 treble
10 pars, 4 bogeys, 2 doubles, 2 trebles


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## Wabinez (Mar 8, 2019)

8...think it would be about fair


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## williamalex1 (Mar 8, 2019)

10


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## User20204 (Mar 8, 2019)

I'm going for 10/11. 18 pars in 36 holes is pretty good going, you may get 9.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 8, 2019)

It's either 11 or 12, not enough detail to put money on it. If pressed and given odds I would go 12, but I don't like agreeing with Homer ðŸ¤”


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## Trodski (Mar 8, 2019)

Cheers for the replies.... so maybe they weren't too far off. Seems the replies average somewhere close to 11. 

I came in at 9.

I was just a little surprised ðŸ˜³ . I know handicap is a measure of potential but I have literally never posted a score of 9 over (best of 84).  

I thought it may come in around 12 but clearly I don't have a great grasp of how the system works.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 8, 2019)

Doesn't fit the current calculation routine; I have a solid grasp and am surprised!

Handicap allocations have an element of potential; which is why having played to 14 twice you would be allocated 12...

Congratulations on your 9, but I would love to know how they got there ðŸ¤”


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## Trodski (Mar 8, 2019)

Do you think it would be worth a chat with the handicap sec? 

Look I'd love to be a real 9 capper, but I certainly don't feel like one.

I've heard a few muttering about 'bandit' and people 'having words' with the committee as I hit a long ball. They don't mention the ones where I hit it OB and make a treble.


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## rosecott (Mar 8, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Do you think it would be worth a chat with the handicap sec?

Look I'd love to be a real 9 capper, but I certainly don't feel like one.

I've heard a few muttering about 'bandit' and people 'having words' with the committee as I hit a long ball. They don't mention the ones where I hit it OB and make a treble.
		
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I agree with Duncan - from the scores quoted, it doesn't stack up. Handicap Committee going on hearsay?


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## User20204 (Mar 8, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Do you think it would be worth a chat with the handicap sec?

.
		
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If it were me, I'd see it as a challenge to test yourself. That's what bloody brilliant about this game, it gives you an opportunity to chase the rainbow every time you go out.


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## Trodski (Mar 9, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I agree with Duncan - from the scores quoted, it doesn't stack up. Handicap Committee going on hearsay?
		
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Possibly, didn't help that I won the money in our 4 ball three weeks in a row ðŸ™ˆ


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## Trodski (Mar 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			If it were me, I'd see it as a challenge to test yourself. That's what bloody brilliant about this game, it gives you an opportunity to chase the rainbow every time you go out.
		
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Yeah, we all want to get better right! I would rather have a lower hcap than be a sandbagger. The only issue is we're on winter tees currently 5900 yds and comp tees are 6500.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 9, 2019)

Were any of your 3 scores made playing in an official qualifier that had a CSS higher than the SS ?.
Not sure if that higher CSS could be used for initial h/c though


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## IainP (Mar 9, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Yeah, we all want to get better right! I would rather have a lower hcap than be a sandbagger. The only issue is we're on winter tees currently 5900 yds and comp tees are 6500.
		
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Is the SSS you quoted for the tees you gave the scores?


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Possibly, didn't help that I won the money in our 4 ball three weeks in a row ðŸ™ˆ
		
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I'm sure you know that cannot be taken into account. From the 3 cards used - no adjustments to be applied - and applying the laid down formula your handicap should be 12. Handicap committees can use any other information - such as previous handicap history - to alter the calculated figure. You say you have been playing for 3 years with no previous handicap to take into consideration so I fail to see the reason for not accepting the calculated handicap. I would be asking the Handicap Committee to explain their reasoning. You might be happy to get on with trying to play to your new handicap but, if not challenged, your Handicap Committee might just think that they can get away with anything.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2019)

Most if not all clubs now have IT handicap systems and they chuck the three cards in and it spits out the handicap. I sence some skullduggery going on here.


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## garyinderry (Mar 9, 2019)

Handing out a handicap on a winter course seems bonkers to me. 

Course 600yards shorter.


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Yeah, we all want to get better right! I would rather have a lower hcap than be a sandbagger. The only issue is we're on winter tees currently 5900 yds and comp tees are 6500.
		
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So, can you clarify?

White tees 6500
Yellow tees normal length?
Yellow tees when you played initial cards?


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2019)

rosecott said:



			So, can you clarify?

White tees 6500
Yellow tees normal length?
Yellow tees when you played initial cards?
		
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Or clarify that you played of an official measured course.


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## rulefan (Mar 9, 2019)

Check you record on the CDH. You might be able to see if the committee adjusted you initial allocation after the calculations were performed.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 9, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Hi All,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just after some advice on my new handicap allocation. Bit of background, I have played for three years or so but never joined a club. I keep record of a handicap on the swing by swing app on my phone which is currently 15.2. I've recently had four or five lessons and put a bit of practice in and have seen some pretty solid improvements pretty quickly.

I have recently joined a club so my question is what do you think my handicap should be based on the following 3 cards?

89, sss 71. Fairly calm day
85, sss 71, Fairly calm day
85, sss 71, 15-20mph winds

Let's see if someone can guess and then I'll let you know what it is.
		
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Unfortunately some people do the opposite and put three cards in higher than they should be .
I have seen it happen ,said player then wins a couple of majors and everyone is complaining.
So hcap committee give the next one a lower hcap.( there not supposed to they should use the formula).
This usually evens out .but itâ€™s hard to get three shots back.
Itâ€™s difficult to get it right all the time.
But I would have a quick word for clarification.


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## Trodski (Mar 9, 2019)

rosecott said:



			So, can you clarify?

White tees 6500
Yellow tees normal length?
Yellow tees when you played initial cards?
		
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It was off the winter tees and using the winter scorecard. Winter tees and summer yellow tees are essentially the same.


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## Trodski (Mar 9, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Check you record on the CDH. You might be able to see if the committee adjusted you initial allocation after the calculations were performed.
		
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Apologies, but how do I access the CDH?


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## Trodski (Mar 9, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Were any of your 3 scores made playing in an official qualifier that had a CSS higher than the SS ?.
Not sure if that higher CSS could be used for initial h/c though 

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I don't know as I haven't checked but I would imagine CSS is probably 2 higher on the windy day.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 9, 2019)

Trodski said:



			I don't know as I haven't checked but I would imagine CSS is probably 2 higher on the windy day.
		
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Seemingly only the SSS  is used for initial h/cs.


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## Trodski (Mar 9, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I'm sure you know that cannot be taken into account. From the 3 cards used - no adjustments to be applied - and applying the laid down formula your handicap should be 12. Handicap committees can use any other information - such as previous handicap history - to alter the calculated figure. You say you have been playing for 3 years with no previous handicap to take into consideration so I fail to see the reason for not accepting the calculated handicap. I would be asking the Handicap Committee to explain their reasoning. You might be happy to get on with trying to play to your new handicap but, if not challenged, your Handicap Committee might just think that they can get away with anything.
		
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Just looked up the congu calculation. (LAGD + (LAGD*0.13) / 1.237

Am I right in thinking the LAGD of the 3 submitted scores is 85-71 Or would the trebles reduce this?

If LAGD is 14 then; (14 + (14*0.13) / 1.237 = 12.79 right?


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Just looked up the congu calculation. (LAGD + (LAGD*0.13) / 1.237

Am I right in thinking the LAGD of the 3 submitted scores is 85-71 Or would the trebles reduce this?

If LAGD is 14 then; (14 + (14*0.13) / 1.237 = 12.79 right?
		
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Your triples do not attract adjustment (adjustments are down to double par) and 12.79 is truncated to 12.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 10, 2019)

I'd be surprised if the SSS is 71 on a 5900yd  course.


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2019)

doublebogey7 said:



			I'd be surprised if the SSS is 71 on a 5900yd  course.
		
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I agree - very likely to be 70, or even 69. That makes his allocation even more suspect.


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## jim8flog (Mar 10, 2019)

rosecott said:



			Your triples do not attract adjustment (adjustments are down to double par) and 12.79 is truncated to 12.
		
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This might then be because who ever did the allocation did it manually and might have used the old formula and adjusted the triples.


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## rulefan (Mar 10, 2019)

Trodski said:



			Apologies, but how do I access the CDH?
		
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https://www.englandgolf.org/my-england-golf/become-a-member/


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## rulefan (Mar 10, 2019)

I suspect there has been some unwarranted intervention by the committee


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## Trodski (Mar 10, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I agree - very likely to be 70, or even 69. That makes his allocation even more suspect.
		
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To be honest 71 doesn't seem reasonable. I did not see the card as another member was marking it. I will have to check it to confirm. As you say this makes 9 even less credible.

Couldn't get down to the golf club today due to the 4 degrees, driving wind and rain. I will investigate further next week.

Had another lesson today and the pro also seemed pretty skepitical when I told him about it. He did say that the round with 10 pars in could be taken into consideration as evidence to knock of a shot or two


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## User20204 (Mar 10, 2019)

18 pars over 36 holes makes 9 very credible IMO.


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			18 pars over 36 holes makes 9 very credible IMO.
		
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Perhaps CONGU could be persuaded to add that to the rules for initial handicap allocation.


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## garyinderry (Mar 10, 2019)

With the course cut to 5900 over winter there will a serious amount of driver wedge holes.  It simply won't play like that at full length. 

I find it incredible that a handicap would be allocated when the course Is in that shortened form.


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			With the course cut to 5900 over winter there will a serious amount of driver wedge holes.  It simply won't play like that at full length.

I find it incredible that a handicap would be allocated when the course Is in that shortened form.
		
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There are plenty of courses around the 6000 yard mark and they will have a SSS appropriate to the difficulty or otherwise of the course.


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## bignev (Mar 11, 2019)

I'm presently going through the 3 card thing after taking a year away from golf but don't really understand how they reach a number.


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## rosecott (Mar 11, 2019)

bignev said:



			I'm presently going through the 3 card thing after taking a year away from golf but don't really understand how they reach a number.
		
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It's a pity you've gone beyond the 12-month point. If you had re-joined a club within the 12-month period, you would just take up where you left off with the same handicap. When you have submitted the required 3 cards, I would be surprised if the club did not allocate your old handicap unless you are physically less able than before. They must take your previous handicap into account. It would seem logical that there would be a fair chance of considering allocating your previous handicap after 13 months absence when it would be automatic after 11 months absence.


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## rulefan (Mar 12, 2019)

bignev said:



			I'm presently going through the 3 card thing after taking a year away from golf but don't really understand how they reach a number.
		
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(a) If a handicap has been previously held, refer to Clause 26 (Regaining a Handicap).
Otherwise the initial handicap shall be allotted as in (b) below.
(b) The Handicap Committee shall
1. Adjust any score of more than double par at any hole to a score of double par (i.e. 6 on a Par 3, 8 on a Par 4 and 10 on a Par 5).
2. Add the nine-hole scores (if applicable) to make up 18-hole equivalents in chronological order. If a club has more than one Designated Nine-Hole Courses each pair of nine-hole scores must be returned over courses having the same Designated Nine-Hole SSSs for the gender of player concerned.
3. Calculate the Adjusted Gross Differential (â€˜AGDâ€˜) scores from the three 18 hole (or 18-hole equivalent) scores; these scores being calculated by comparing the returns relative to the SSSâ€™s of the courses/tees used: AGD = Adjusted Gross Score â€“ SSS for the course/tees used Determine the Lowest Adjusted Gross Differential (â€˜LAGDâ€˜) from the three Adjusted Gross Differentials
4. Reduce the resulting LAGD according to the formula;
Initial Handicap = (LAGD + (LAGD*0.13))/ 1.237 truncated to provide a whole number.

For example, a player with a Lowest Adjusted Gross Differential of 31 is allotted an initial handicap of 28 (which is recorded as an Exact Handicap of 28.0) as shown below: 

Initial Handicap = (31 + (31*0.13))/1.237 = (31 + 4.03)/1.237
= (35.03/1.237)
= 28.31 truncated to 28 and recorded as an Exact Handicap of
28.0.
After these adjustments have been made the whole number Exact Handicap shall, subject to the provisions of Clauses 16.3(c) and 16.3(e), be allotted.


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## lex! (Mar 20, 2019)

Handicap sec should let the software work it out and the Hcap sec should not intervene.

I have got you at 11

I was at a workshop once and some bloke piped up 'oh, I look at what the computer gives me and just take a couple of shots off it, as they are new' !


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## Kellfire (Mar 20, 2019)

Trodski said:



			I did not see the card as another member was marking it.
		
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You didn't see the card on which a handicapping round was being marked?

Eh?


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## simonm8 (Mar 25, 2019)

See im in the same boat, Use game golf to track all my rounds and stats according to that over 55 rounds I should be 17.8
Joined clubs submitted 3 cards as below
Par 71 - SSS 70

86 - 7 pars, 7 Bogeys, 4 DBL Bogeys
87 - 1 Birdie, 3 Pars, 11 Bogeys, 3 DBL Bogeys
93 - 2 Pars, 9 Bogeys, 5 DBL Bogeys, 1 TRP Bogey


Got allocated 13..


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## lex! (Mar 27, 2019)

simonm8 said:



			See im in the same boat, Use game golf to track all my rounds and stats according to that over 55 rounds I should be 17.8
Joined clubs submitted 3 cards as below
Par 71 - SSS 70

86 - 7 pars, 7 Bogeys, 4 DBL Bogeys
87 - 1 Birdie, 3 Pars, 11 Bogeys, 3 DBL Bogeys
93 - 2 Pars, 9 Bogeys, 5 DBL Bogeys, 1 TRP Bogey


Got allocated 13..
		
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I calculate yours at 15. That 86 as a good round. Might be worth talking to your Handicap Secretary if you think it's unfair and you wont be able to play to it. All initial allocations can be monitored and reviewed.


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## jim8flog (Mar 27, 2019)

simonm8 said:



			See im in the same boat, Use game golf to track all my rounds and stats according to that over 55 rounds I should be 17.8
Joined clubs submitted 3 cards as below
Par 71 - SSS 70

86 - 7 pars, 7 Bogeys, 4 DBL Bogeys
87 - 1 Birdie, 3 Pars, 11 Bogeys, 3 DBL Bogeys
93 - 2 Pars, 9 Bogeys, 5 DBL Bogeys, 1 TRP Bogey


Got allocated 13..
		
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The best round is used for handicap purposes (your potential is what is wanted not your average)

 as a very rough guide

Use the 86
which is 15 over par multiply by .9 = 13.5 then round down to the nearest whole number = 13.

Which is what you were allocated.


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## simonm8 (Apr 2, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			The best round is used for handicap purposes (your potential is what is wanted not your average)

as a very rough guide

Use the 86
which is 15 over par multiply by .9 = 13.5 then round down to the nearest whole number = 13.

Which is what you were allocated.
		
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Oh right ok that makes sense now, thanks


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