# Progress (I think)



## HomerJSimpson (Nov 20, 2013)

I have been bleating on that despite the handicap going up from 10.1 to 11.4 I am hitting the ball much better and the swing path is travelling much better. I know the masses enjoy a "knock Homer" thread so consider this my early Christmas present to you all

Swing 1 - this is from December 2012. Path way too far from the inside leading to all sorts of errors. Too often trapped leading to flicky hands and pushes and snap hooks all over the place








Swing 2 - From Friday's lesson. The whole swing is much steeper and compressing better and exits much better to the left. However I had overdone the path and it is now a little over the top which has led to a few fades and pulls








Swing 3 - After we implemented the changes (ball position, back swing). Much better and the club back to impact in a perfect position parallel to the target line. I exit much better. Controlled. Less body movement and fewer moving parts. I just need to drill the change from the lesson to make it more permanent 








Overall I am really pleased with the difference. The quality in ball striking is chalk and cheese. It will never be textbook but I've got it to a place now where it is functional simpler and I can recognise my errors now. No doubt it won't please the majority but I hope it may at least give hope to those making big swing changes that there is light at the end of your tunnel


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## sev112 (Nov 20, 2013)

Homer
What do your coaches say about your head movement in the downswing?  It lifts and moves away from the ball after transition?
It does look odd


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## Lump (Nov 20, 2013)

Has your pro tried to address the spine angle issue? Your swing is fundamentally sound, but the loss of spine angle will kill accuracy and distance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2013)

One easy way to score better is 

Relax , stop thinking too much about scoring , stop putting pressure on yourself , enjoy playing the game a bit more , stop thinking about swing thoughts etc - you are going to end up hating playing golf

As for your swing - lots of movement with the head and it looks very stiff and rigid and just looks forced and not very relaxed


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 20, 2013)

Now the club I travelling on a better path we can address the other issues. Movement between 1 and 3 is greatly reduced. I didn't say I was finished yet


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## richart (Nov 20, 2013)

I still see the same problem with your upper half lifting and pulling back by the top of the backswing. If you freeze your swing at the top you have virtually stood up. I don't understand why you don't concentrate on eradicating that movement before all else. In the old days when I started and had lessons the Pro would put a club over your head and you had to stay down. 

You have added a little flourish/dip at the end of the swing but that is not where the problem is. It is the last part of your back swing, and to me that has not changed from the first video. I may be being stupid but why don't you maintain spine angle ?

I am trying to be helpful as I know how much your golf means to you.


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## Jimbooo (Nov 20, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Now the club I travelling on a better path we can address the other issues. Movement between 1 and 3 is greatly reduced. I didn't say I was finished yet
		
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It's looking better for sure Homer - well done :thup: , but I agree with the others... you seem to be gradually standing up throughout the whole swing. Head rises on the backswing, and continues to on the downswing.  By the time you hit the ball you're virtually standing up straight.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 20, 2013)

richart said:



			I still see the same problem with your upper half lifting and pulling back by the top of the backswing. If you freeze your swing at the top you have virtually stood up. I don't understand why you don't concentrate on eradicating that movement before all else. In the old days when I started and had lessons the Pro would put a club over your head and you had to stay down. 

You have added a little flourish/dip at the end of the swing but that is not where the problem is. It is the last part of your back swing, and to me that has not changed from the first video. I may be being stupid but why don't you maintain spine angle ?

I am trying to be helpful as I know how much your golf means to you.
		
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Because getting the club going on the right path was the thing my pro wanted to get right. I won't lose the loss of spine angle without hours of work and making other changes to the swing. Where I am now I can get the club on a better path more often and so the ball flight is more predictable and I am hitting down and compressing. It won't be perfect and to be honest I can live with the flaws to deliver it back to ball as well as I feel I am. Short game was what I really want to focus on this winter and just keep what I have now ticking over. I'm happy and my pro thinks we've moved on greatly so I'm in a good place.


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## Crow (Nov 20, 2013)

My first question would be, why is there a disco at the end of the range?

Then, Like others say, I'd try and keep the head and spine stable until the release.
This will proabbaly shorten your backswing as well (which would be no bad thing) as the lift seems to start when you get near the end of your backswing.

I'm sure I've seen videos of teachers with their hands on the players head stopping them from lifting before releasing the club.


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## anotherdouble (Nov 20, 2013)

I am in no position to comment on your swing Homer. But what I will say is that if you are happy with the progress then that's all that matters.  Enjoy what you have and I hope golf gives you many more years of enjoyment.


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## richart (Nov 20, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because getting the club going on the right path was the thing my pro wanted to get right. I won't lose the loss of spine angle without hours of work and making other changes to the swing. Where I am now I can get the club on a better path more often and so the ball flight is more predictable and I am hitting down and compressing. It won't be perfect and to be honest I can live with the flaws to deliver it back to ball as well as I feel I am. Short game was what I really want to focus on this winter and just keep what I have now ticking over. I'm happy and my pro thinks we've moved on greatly so I'm in a good place.
		
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Have you tried with a 3/4 swing ? Your position 3/4 the way back is fine, it is the last 1/4 where the problem is. Personally think you are over swinging for an iron, and don't need that last bit anyway.

Just to humour me put up a video of a 3/4 swing, just your normal swing shortened, think of hitting a 7 iron 120 yards. If it doesn't look good I promise I will never to comment on your swing again.:thup:


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## Robobum (Nov 20, 2013)

Sam Torrance learnt to keep his height by his dad grabbing a handful of his hair I think.


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## Jimbooo (Nov 20, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Sam Torrance learnt to keep his height by his dad grabbing a handful of his hair I think.
		
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That's unfair.


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## garyinderry (Nov 20, 2013)

nice to finally get a look at your swing homer :thup:


ive got to agree with richart, the backswing looks too long.  what feels like a 3/4 swing will be more than enough.   spine angle has to be the next thing to look at.  


what shot shape are you playing?  little fade?


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## chrisd (Nov 20, 2013)

I don't normally post on swing questions Homer but you straighten up through the downswing, your head lift and your body moves away from the ball. I would concentrate on maintaining the spine angle through the swing and you hight too. I would personally be asking the pro to tell me the end result he was looking for and to change everything at the same time, I don't think a change a bit at a time works


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## In_The_Rough (Nov 20, 2013)

Hats off to you for your effort and perseverance. However as many have said it looks as though you are almost standing up, it just does not look right and I imagine must be causing some bad results. Again as others have said I would be getting this sorted sooner rather than later. Anyway good luck in your quest and you are braver than me for posting the swings up on here


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## philly169 (Nov 20, 2013)

Looks good, great to see that the work you've been doing is paying off.

I'm no pro so not going to comment on any other issues that might be there as that's what your paying your pro for.

Keep at it!


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## JustOne (Nov 20, 2013)

It's a huge difference Martin

You used to get the club stuck around behind you (where the yellow line is) on your backswing, so even to get the club onto the ball with that new path is a result in itself.








The problem is your downswing... and that's never really going to fix itself until you fix your 'Catch 22' situation.

You come down too steep, the catch is you *have to* stand up to make space to come down too steep... and likewise because you know you're going to come down steep you *have to* stand up in your backswing. If you didn't stand up you'd have no space for a steep downswing like that.







Personally I wouldn't stand up - I'd force myself to learn the correct downswing plane, but that's me not you. Good to see you're making an effort and you should be more consistent with that new path... at least you have a chance of hitting the ball more consistently from there :thup:


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## Kellfire (Nov 21, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Personally I wouldn't stand up
		
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You know more about the swing that I ever will but surely that address position is far too hunched down over the ball... 

Standing up straighter at address, allowing his arms to hang more freely, would certainly allow for a more natural turn without the need to get out of the way. I don't even know how you'd start to take the club away from that position without either dragging the club along the ground for an inch or two or by a dramatic lift with the hands rather than the turn doing that...


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## garyinderry (Nov 21, 2013)

whats causing the steepness?     is it that hes bent over slightly too far with low hands? 


ive been experimenting recently with slightly lower hands at address and found it forces me to go up a little more rather than around and flat?


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## JustOne (Nov 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You know more about the swing that I ever will but surely that address position is far too hunched down over the ball...
		
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It's borderline... if that's a 7,8 iron. It would be OK if it was 9 or wedge. Biggest thought about that is loss of balance - too much weight forwards.

He actually makes an OK backswing and gets to here without his head really moving much at all, or losing his posture...







It's from here onwards where the problems lie. At least from where his new backswing is he has a CHANCE of flattening it.... previously he had no chance as he was swinging the club behind his knees on the takeaway.





What is causing the steepness Gary? No one has showed him properly what he's supposed to be doing from address to impact, not in a way that he understands (or embraces). His downswing is what he thinks it should be,.. to hit the ball as he thinks it should be hit.


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## tsped83 (Nov 21, 2013)

Fair play for putting this up Homer, looks like an improvement.

You don't need advice from an 18 hcap like me, but for what it's worth you do stand up through the swing, just an observation. Good luck with your work on everything though.


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## One Planer (Nov 21, 2013)

Definate improvement Homer, well done :thup:

Looks like the time invested with your pro and on the range is begining to pay off.

As others have said, if you can fix the upward movement in the downswing, that would be pretty solid.

Question: Do you feel the standing up will be easier to 'fix' than the swing path?


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2013)

Nice to see you've narrowed the stance up a bit. As for ther lifting, I'm with Kellfire on that one. Its giving you the room you haven't got in (cramped) address position. Other than that, its looking good - plenty of repetition, which will give a consistent strike.

Good stuff Martin, stick at it.


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## One Planer (Nov 21, 2013)

Ask a silly question.

If you had a more upright address posture, would that help you to avoid standing up in the backswing?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2013)

Some interesting comments and nothing I didn't expect or already know. Yes the lateral movement is still and issue and yes it does seem in the video evidence to be caused by the last few inches of the backswing going on to far but it NEVER feels as though I am going too far back. If anything it is shorter and less across the line than a year ago. I am tempted to play about with a 3/4 swing at the range just to see where it could lead and have mailed my pro for his thoughts. 

My swing has been like an onion and needed to strip the layers of problems and faults away to get to a place where I can give myself room to get the club back to the ball with room. Its been a longer journey and more layers than I hoped but I am in a happy place with that. As I said in the OP, pause swing 3 just before impact and the club is in a textbook position on plane (yes I know you need to ignore the body position but despite this I can hit good places).

It has become more repeatable and the contact and direction are improved which I guess is the main thing. My only concern about shortening the swing and stopping a lot of the movement is the fact this is now ingrained over 30+ years and so the amount of work, potential damage to my playability while I do this, and the length of time I'd need to invest may not outweigh the benefits at this stage of my golfing career. If I can invest that time on resurecting a more sustainable and trustworthy short game and just hone what I have in the longer swing, I think it will give the tools to reach single figures. I've seen plenty of 9 handicappers and lower with equally as obvious swing faults (not necessarily lateral movement but in terms of path and compensatory moves) who get it round efficiently and rely on a functional short game to help the score.


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## bladeplayer (Nov 21, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It has become more repeatable and the contact and direction are improved which I guess is the main thing.
		
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My view which is in no way Educational Or Knowledgeable Maritn is your swing seems very mechanical , i appreciate thats what you are probably looking for in the long run .. 
Im remembering back to the FoA and i thought you had a very nice rhytmic swing,  one that i wouldnt mind having , and that you played nice and freely .. 
As i often admit i know diddly squat re sings or swing mechanics but im very surprised any pro would teach  that body lift at top of the swing .. 
But if you have achieved a repeatable swing with better contact that can only be good .. 

Best of luck


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## brendy (Nov 21, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			My view which is in no way Educational Or Knowledgeable Maritn is your swing seems very mechanical , i appreciate thats what you are probably looking for in the long run .. 
Im remembering back to the FoA and i thought you had a very nice rhytmic swing,  one that i wouldnt mind having , and that you played nice and freely .. 
As i often admit i know diddly squat re sings or swing mechanics but im very surprised any pro would teach  that body lift at top of the swing .. 
But if you have achieved a repeatable swing with better contact that can only be good .. 

Best of luck
		
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Bill, your swing is grand as it is, a good powerful turn and lots of speed. 

Homer, yours seems to be all about height, there is no power there at all, as mentioned, the 3/4 swing might actually help you get more weight into the swing, by weight, I mean power.
Bill and myself (and some others I have seen at my own club too) hit it reasonable distances but neither of us reach the full straight arm suspension at the top of our backswings (built for comfort) nor stand up on the ball , I reckon if we did, we'd lose a fair bit of timing and yardage, never mind the more chance of plane differences on each swing likely causing even more random outcomes.
Give that 3/4 a go, what can you lose?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2013)

I sent my pro a link to the thread and asked his thoughts on shortening the swing or addressing the lateral movement. Both of which I accept are issues but both of which after 30+ years on ingraining I'm not sure I have the time, patience and inclination to even attempt to eradicate or reduce significantly. Below is his reply. Please don't turn the thread into a "bash the pro" one as he has taught me for the last two years and so knows my game pretty well and what I can and can't do. 

_I am pretty happy with it as long as it's balanced and you can repeat your shots. It could be difficult for you to tear in to it again! We may tweak here and there but let's not strip It back. 
We just need a bit more confidence in it and to hit more greens so that there is less pressure on your short game. _

So maybe I've reached the end of the road in terms of changing the swing (Hoorah went the masses) and it's a case of learning to use what I have which is far more functional anyway, and getting a killer short game to compensate for any inaccuracies and off days.


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## tsped83 (Nov 21, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I sent my pro a link to the thread and asked his thoughts on shortening the swing or addressing the lateral movement. .
		
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I bet he loved that Homer!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2013)

tsped83 said:



			I bet he loved that Homer!
		
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He did. He loves this sort of thing. He knew I was doing it and knows my goals and my swing. He was actually pleased with how far I'd come from swing 1 to swing 3 and so its about consistency now


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## Rooter (Nov 21, 2013)

Kudos HJS. keep going!


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## Robobum (Nov 21, 2013)

Consistency is both of your aims for your swing. That will be difficult with that much movement up & down.

Good luck though, you are obviously happy with it


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## fundy (Nov 21, 2013)

Homer, 1 question, do you stand up when hitting shorter shots (pitches and chips)? As if so then it definitely needs addressing imo, if not then go spend some time on the short game area based on your and your pros comments


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2013)

fundy said:



			Homer, 1 question, do you stand up when hitting shorter shots (pitches and chips)? As if so then it definitely needs addressing imo, if not then go spend some time on the short game area based on your and your pros comments
		
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Do you know what, I've no idea. Rarely if ever filmed a short shot with wedge or 9 iron as I tend to use mid irons 5-7 in lessons. Funnily enough I'm off for a pitching lesson on Sunday so I'll try and get something on camera. If not I'll film a few at the range but I am guessing not as much movement


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2013)

Agree with Rodobum - it's got to be very hard to replicate and find consistency with your swing with so much movement in it.

It's such a busy swing that has lots if elements in it that.

Has your pro not tried to stop you standing up ? It appears to be one of the big probs with your swing that would be the first part to try and sort out. Can see you getting higher and higher. Must take a lot of concentration - maybe too much. What are your "bad" shots


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## richart (Nov 21, 2013)

Do you always swing with 100% power ? I often play 3/4 shots,  punches into the wind or from under trees etc. Can't see the harm in trying these shots on the range, no change to your swing which will keep your Pro happy, video the results, and see what they look like. What you think is a 3/4 swing may be a full one to others, and I don't think you will lose any power. If nothing else you may master a shot that could come in handy during a round.


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I sent my pro a link to the thread
		
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Good man :thup:


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## the smiling assassin (Nov 22, 2013)

i think you've more talent than you give yourself credit for. your set up does look a little awkward, but your swing looks easily like that of a single figure golfer. you are simply struggling with getting over the mental hurdle of reaching your target, some thing i can relate to after choking my last few medals from excellent positions to get cut the last 0.3 (now 0.5!) that i need to reach my target handicap. personally i'd have thought it more than possible that you could improve further and aim for mid single figures. don't settle and think you've reached it. golf is an endless process of learning and discovering room for improvement as with any walk of life - a full stop just means you're about to start the next sentance


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## Snelly (Nov 22, 2013)

If I was you, I think I would change your pro.  

Only kidding.



I agree with Richart and think you should try a much shorter swing.  Fewer moving parts means less to go wrong. Turn away with the shoulders, turn back then hit with the hands.  Simple!


I am definitely going to put my swing up on one of these posts too.  I can't wait to find out what is wrong with it according to a load of blokes who get a shot every other hole or more!


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## Robobum (Nov 22, 2013)

If I was you, I'd change my pro straight away.


His teaching bay is a health & safety hazard. No laughing matter with a ball rattling around the place after I've just piped one off the filing cabinet in the corner - where there's blame.............


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## NWJocko (Nov 22, 2013)

Fair play for putting this up Homer, glad the lessons are working :thup:

Re the standing up in the swing, are you conscious of it at all?

I guess you've tried to stop it before from what your pro said, why wasn't it successful?


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## CMAC (Nov 22, 2013)

richart said:



			I still see the same problem with your upper half lifting and pulling back by the top of the backswing. If you freeze your swing at the top you have virtually stood up. I don't understand why you don't concentrate on eradicating that movement before all else. In the old days when I started and had lessons the Pro would put a club over your head and you had to stay down. 

You have added a little flourish/dip at the end of the swing but that is not where the problem is. It is the last part of your back swing, and to me that has not changed from the first video. I may be being stupid but why don't you maintain spine angle ?

I am trying to be helpful as I know how much your golf means to you.
		
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Best post on this thread IMO. Sort that out (should take you about 30 mins max I reckon) and you'll see an enormous difference


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2013)

Homer.   I dont know how much your Pro has taken from you but whatever it has not sorted your problems.   I  know that you are very dedicated to your golf and have tried hard, this is reflected in your handicap.

I am sure that if I spent an hour with you on the range I could point out your problems with body movement.   Have you considered a session with JustOne, I am sure he could get you into better positions through the swing?


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## sawtooth (Nov 25, 2013)

Its coming on Homer but as you know yourself you are coming off the shot quite a bit. I'm sure if you can stop doing that you will get a lot more consistent.


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