# Second Chances



## bladeplayer (Jan 8, 2015)

I have just been reading on Sky News that the Ched Evans Oldham move has been scrapped, didnt read the details , but ive seen other  comments re sponsors pulling out etc if clubs sign him ..

Now this thread is NOT about the guilt or non guilt of him or anyone else for that matter . its just his story got me thinking .

If you commit a crime and get caught and serve your time , when you serve your sentence should / shouldnt you be allowed to get on with your life , i know sponsors have the right to invest their money as they see fit but is it fair that someone can pay their dues (for want of better term) but still carry the consequences , is this not a 2nd punishment  ?..


I can appreciate the thoughts will vary differently if you were the family of the Victim over the family of the accused / guilty but what about as a complete stranger / outsider 

Now i know this can be an emotive subject and if any mod wants to just pull the thread just work away guys for the rest of us just respect others answers even if they differ from your own please ,


Thanks


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2015)

I'm a firm believer in giving people a second chance. In this instance, he hasn't done the time, he is out on parole(licence). He has not shown one shred of remorse, nor has he accepted the judgement of his peers and the courts who said his behaviour is unacceptable. He has, arrogantly, taken the line that he is innocent even though it was his statement and that of the his mate which admitted their actions but 'hid' behind a defence of consensual sex. The judgement passed on his behaviour is based on his responsibility to act in a certain way, which he clearly didn't.

Quite frankly, because he hasn't admitted guilt nor shown remorse I believe he should be still inside.


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## Val (Jan 8, 2015)

Up until I heard Evans press release minutes ago Id agree with you Bri but given what has been released and what I'm told privately about the case I believe he deserves a second chance.

Up until the recent press release the hard facts were he is a convicted racist showing no remorse, that is unforgivable, the latest release covers the remorse and arrogance from Evans


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I'm a firm believer in giving people a second chance. In this instance, he hasn't done the time, he is out on parole(licence). He has not shown one shred of remorse, nor has he accepted the judgement of his peers and the courts who said his behaviour is unacceptable. He has, arrogantly, taken the line that he is innocent even though it was his statement and that of the his mate which admitted their actions but 'hid' behind a defence of consensual sex. The judgement passed on his behaviour is based on his responsibility to act in a certain way, which he clearly didn't.

Quite frankly, because he hasn't admitted guilt nor shown remorse I believe he should be still inside.
		
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Completely agree. To be honest though, I think the extremely lenient sentences handed out to the few rapists that get convicted is the actual issue rather than whether some football club wants to employ him.


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## garyinderry (Jan 8, 2015)

"I am grateful for the support of the PFA in helping me try to return to football and continue my career.

"Upon legal advice, I was told not to discuss the events in question. This silence has been misinterpreted as arrogance and I would like to state that this could not be further from the truth.

"I do remain limited at present by what I can say due to the ongoing referral to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effects that night in Rhyl has had on many people, not least the woman concerned.

"Finally, it has been claimed that those using social media in an abusive and vindictive way towards this woman are supporters of mine. I wish to make it clear that these people are not my supporters and I condemn their actions entirely and will continue to do so."



Why is it constantly reported that he hasn't apologised?  He has apologised for the effects of that night. He clearly can't apologise for his actions as that is an admission of guilt in my book.


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## jp5 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Quite frankly, because he hasn't admitted guilt nor shown remorse I believe he should be still inside.
		
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Not saying that Evans is innocent, and to even be in his situation you'd have to be an almighty idiot, but what if he genuinely is innocent? Would you show remorse for a crime you didn't commit?


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Not saying that Evans is innocent, and to even be in his situation you'd have to be an almighty idiot, but what if he genuinely is innocent? Would you show remorse for a crime you didn't commit?
		
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He's apologised for his actions, which is an admission they occurred. Those actions, deemed by the court in upholding the law, make him guilty.


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## Val (Jan 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			He's apologised for his actions, which is an admission they occurred. Those actions, deemed by the court in upholding the law, make him guilty.
		
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He hadn't apologised for his actions though, he can't because that's an admission of guilt and therefore would deem an appeal not needed.

He apologised for the effects that night had on people and the women, that legally  is very different to him apologising for his actions.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			I have just been reading on Sky News that the Ched Evans Oldham move has been scrapped, didnt read the details , but ive seen other  comments re sponsors pulling out etc if clubs sign him ..

Now this thread is NOT about the guilt or non guilt of him or anyone else for that matter . its just his story got me thinking .

If you commit a crime and get caught and serve your time , when you serve your sentence should / shouldnt you be allowed to get on with your life , i know sponsors have the right to invest their money as they see fit but is it fair that someone can pay their dues (for want of better term) but still carry the consequences , is this not a 2nd punishment  ?..


I can appreciate the thoughts will vary differently if you were the family of the Victim over the family of the accused / guilty but what about as a complete stranger / outsider 

Now i know this can be an emotive subject and if any mod wants to just pull the thread just work away guys for the rest of us just respect others answers even if they differ from your own please ,


Thanks
		
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You have to look at the context of the situation and I think it is very difficult to apply a hard and fast rule that someone can carry on in life with no further consequences if they have been convicted of a serious and very emotional crime. Especially when that person is performing a public role that rightly or wrongly has a big element of worship/support for want of a better word.  Yes you could argue that he is getting punished twice, but many would argue that after being convicted of a crime like rape then that is the least someone deserves. 

I have read very coherent arguments for both sides, indeed Mathew Syed, one of my favourite writers who I agree with just about everything he says, argued very persuasively that he should be allowed to play.  But it is my belief is that whilst he is a convicted rapist he should not play, and this seems to be shared by a lot of supporters and sponsors of the clubs involved.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2015)

'A club director told BBC sports editor Dan Roan that a staff member was informed a named relative would be raped if the deal went ahead.'

An obscene way to get a message across!

Whoever made that threat should be punished to the full extent of the law!


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## Rooter (Jan 8, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			'A club director told BBC sports editor Dan Roan that a staff member was informed a named relative would be raped if the deal went ahead.'

An obscene way to get a message across!

Whoever made that threat should be punished to the full extent of the law!
		
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And rather ironic that to state their disgust at a convicted rapist joining the club, they would rape someone if it happened? OK then...


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## jp5 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			He's apologised for his actions, which is an admission they occurred. Those actions, deemed by the court in upholding the law, make him guilty.
		
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No he hasn't.

I'm genuinely not trying to defend the guy and couldn't care less what happens to him. But it does rile me when people attempt to construct arguments based on fallacies.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			"I am grateful for the support of the PFA in helping me try to return to football and continue my career.

"Upon legal advice, I was told not to discuss the events in question. This silence has been misinterpreted as arrogance and I would like to state that this could not be further from the truth.

"I do remain limited at present by what I can say due to the ongoing referral to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effects that night in Rhyl has had on many people, not least the woman concerned.

"Finally, it has been claimed that those using social media in an abusive and vindictive way towards this woman are supporters of mine. I wish to make it clear that these people are not my supporters and I condemn their actions entirely and will continue to do so."



Why is it constantly reported that he hasn't apologised?  He has apologised for the effects of that night. He clearly can't apologise for his actions as that is an admission of guilt in my book.
		
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Well he's only just issued that statement after it's become apparent that no club will touch him unless he can improve his image. So while it slightly improves my opinion of him I'd also say that it's pretty cynical and not entirely sincere - his website, which continues the abuse and harassment of his victim and distorts the truth of the incident, remains online... So a step in the right direction but not enough.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

Val said:



			Up until I heard Evans press release minutes ago Id agree with you Bri but given what has been released and what I'm told privately about the case I believe he deserves a second chance.

Up until the recent press release the hard facts were he is a convicted racist showing no remorse, that is unforgivable, the latest release covers the remorse and arrogance from Evans
		
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A more cynical person may say that he has now realised that no football club will sign him unless he says something.  So he has got his lawyers to draft a sufficiently semi-appoligistic statement to try and defuse the situation, with them long term aim being that some football club will now employ him.  And how much he has actually had a change of heart or thinks differently about what he did is debatable to say the least.


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Well he's only just issued that statement after it's become apparent that no club will touch him unless he can improve his image. So while it slightly improves my opinion of him I'd also say that it's pretty cynical and not entirely sincere - his website, which continues the abuse and harassment of his victim and distorts the truth of the incident, remains online... So a step in the right direction but not enough.
		
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Yep, it is the politician's 'I am sorry you were upset by ...' apology rather than 'I am sorry I did it'.

I am a bit conflicted by this one. On the one hand, he has served the sentence and been released on licence/parole, but it perfectly understandable that people are repulsed and he is rather toxic. Maybe once his licence conditions expire, he will go abroad and play there.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Well he's only just issued that statement after it's become apparent that no club will touch him unless he can improve his image. So while it slightly improves my opinion of him I'd also say that it's pretty cynical and not entirely sincere - his website, which continues the abuse and harassment of his victim and distorts the truth of the incident, remains online... So a step in the right direction but not enough.
		
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Hey yoghurt knitter, stop copying my arguments.


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## Beezerk (Jan 8, 2015)

No second chance for me, the reasons perfectly summed up by the large footed one.


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## Rooter (Jan 8, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			No second chance for me, the reasons perfectly summed up by the large footed one.
		
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So is it just rape you get no second chance? What about Luke McCormick? Killed two kids while under the influence in a car "accident". Served his time in prison and now plays for Plymouth Argyle IIRC.

So are we judging second chances by the crime committed these days?


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## bladeplayer (Jan 8, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			No second chance for me, the reasons perfectly summed up by the large footed one.
		
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For anything ? how would ya feel if it was someone belonging to u that made a mess up ?

Guys /Gals please dont let it into a Ched Evans only  thread , Ta


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			For anything ? how would ya feel if it was someone belonging to u that made a mess up ?

Guys /Gals please dont let it into a Ched Evans only  thread , Ta
		
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I think the nature of the crime is relevant. Everyone has a different attitude to different crimes, influenced by their own experiences and morality.

But in terms of second chances, the attitude of the offender is vital. Admit you did wrong, show genuine remorse and contrition, do what you can to make amends.

Here's a thought.... EARN a second chance rather than demand it as a right.


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## garyinderry (Jan 8, 2015)

I may be wrong but I don't think that is even a recent statement. I think it was when he was released from prison.


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## Beezerk (Jan 8, 2015)

Rooter said:



			So is it just rape you get no second chance? What about Luke McCormick? Killed two kids while under the influence in a car "accident". Served his time in prison and now plays for Plymouth Argyle IIRC.

So are we judging second chances by the crime committed these days?
		
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Two different types of crimes though, one is a pre meditated sex attack, the other a drunken car crash (not sure of the details of the Luke McCormick accident) however I'm not trying to say one is worse than the other.
I just can't see how you can have a convicted rapist playing pro football with all the exposure it brings.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I may be wrong but I don't think that is even a recent statement. I think it was when he was released from prison.
		
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It was released this afternoon after Oldham withdrew their offer.


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## Beezerk (Jan 8, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			For anything ? how would ya feel if it was someone belonging to u that made a mess up ?
		
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For making a comeback in football, he can become a window cleaner for all I care.


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## shewy (Jan 8, 2015)

I actually think Harry Rednap had it spot on in his news conferance today. It's a hard one and I think all clubs should wait until the appeal is over,then he will be either a convicted rapist or a cleared one. If the conviction stands then nobody will go near him.
if he's cleared then by all means get your career going again.


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## garyinderry (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			It was released this afternoon after Oldham withdrew their offer.
		
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So it was. 


The whole thing is a mess. Even if he had waited till he was a completely free there would still be the same uproar.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

Rooter said:



			So is it just rape you get no second chance? What about Luke McCormick? Killed two kids while under the influence in a car "accident". Served his time in prison and now plays for Plymouth Argyle IIRC.

*So are we judging second chances by the crime committed these days*?
		
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Rightly or wrongly yes, there will always be an element of that as that is human nature.  People will always be more willing to give say a shoplifter a second chance than they will a rapist.


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2015)

Val said:



			He hadn't apologised for his actions though, he can't because that's an admission of guilt and therefore would deem an appeal not needed.

He apologised for the effects that night had on people and the women, that legally  is very different to him apologising for his actions.
		
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jp5 said:



			No he hasn't.

I'm genuinely not trying to defend the guy and couldn't care less what happens to him. But it does rile me when people attempt to construct arguments based on fallacies.
		
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I know its semantics/splitting hairs but, "I do remain limited at present by what I can say due to the ongoing referral to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effects that night in Rhyl has had on many people, not least the woman concerned."

Cause and effect... 

In my view, he's arguing with the interpretation the jury have made. He doesn't deny what went on, only the that it is being deemed as rape. However, the law is pretty clear on the responsibility, irrespective of how anyone wants to interpret it.

For what its worth, if he'd accepted the judgement, held his hands up and shown remorse I'd be all for him playing again - second chance. And I don't subscribe to the role model excuse some make to say he shouldn't play. "Done the time..." No one should have to wear sack cloth and ashes for life, although I would agree that dependent on the crime there are places someone shouldn't work, e.g. a paedo in a children's home.


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## garyinderry (Jan 8, 2015)

If it were up to me he wouldn't be fit to play football by the time he got out. The length of sentence for rape is a joke. 

By the same measure, I don't make the rules and as they stand he should be allowed the freedom to work as any other. We cannot change this because it conflicts with our own moral compass.


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## Rooter (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			People will always be more willing to give say a shoplifter a second chance than they will a rapist.
		
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Probably not shopkeepers...


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## lobthewedge (Jan 8, 2015)

I understand why, given the current news story, but considering all the grey areas concerning the events, his conviction and outstanding appeal; Ched Evans is a poor example to use when debating the rights and wrongs of giving criminals a second chance.

Personally I believe these things should be dealt with on an individual basis, some people are deserving and others sadly aren't.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 8, 2015)

Taking Evans out of this for a minute, the issue is a convicted criminal being able to return to work after serving time.

My take on this depends on whether the crime was "work "related or not,  For instance an accountant being convicted of fraud needs to find a new career as nobody will ever trust him again, 

Contrast that with the same accountant being convicted of GBH or rape after a drunken night out,   Not related to his job at all, therefore he should be able to return to that same line of work after his sentence.

Now bring Evans back into the arguement.  He didnt commit any crime ON THE PITCH, therefore his crime has nothing to do with his work.  It is purely the fact that footballers are seen as "role models" that is keeping him out of a job. Which I feel is wrong.

Lets also ask the question of what happens to him if he cannot return to football. he is young, fit, healthy and unskilled, he could learn a trade, or he could easily end up on the dole being supported by the tax payer....
OR
he could return to football, not be a burden on society and able to make a sizable contribution to a rape charity 

If we as a society are unwilling to give our ex convicts a second chance, then we might as well throw away the keys 

It will be interesting to see what the Criminal Case Review Board come up with, I just wish they would get on with it


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## chrisd (Jan 8, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Taking Evans out of this for a minute, the issue is a convicted criminal being able to return to work after serving time.

My take on this depends on whether the crime was "work "related or not,  For instance an accountant being convicted of fraud needs to find a new career as nobody will ever trust him again, 

Contrast that with the same accountant being convicted of GBH or rape after a drunken night out,   Not related to his job at all, therefore he should be able to return to that same line of work after his sentence.

Now bring Evans back into the arguement.  He didnt commit any crime ON THE PITCH, therefore his crime has nothing to do with his work.  It is purely the fact that footballers are seen as "role models" that is keeping him out of a job. Which I feel is wrong.

Lets also ask the question of what happens to him if he cannot return to football. he is young, fit, healthy and unskilled, he could learn a trade, or he could easily end up on the dole being supported by the tax payer....
OR
he could return to football, not be a burden on society and able to make a sizable contribution to a rape charity 

If we as a society are unwilling to give our ex convicts a second chance, then we might as well throw away the keys 

It will be interesting to see what the Criminal Case Review Board come up with, I just wish they would get on with it
		
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I absolutely agree with this ^


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Now bring Evans back into the arguement.  He didnt commit any crime ON THE PITCH, therefore his crime has nothing to do with his work.  It is purely the fact that footballers are seen as "role models" that is keeping him out of a job. Which I feel is wrong.
		
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I don't think the "role model" argument is entirely spurious, but there may be too much being made of it.

However, what Evans and the clubs that have considered signing him are discovering is that professional footballer is a high profile job. Amongst other things, clubs need to attract a level of sponsorship to be able to operate. Businesses don't sponsor clubs out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to raise their profile, to associate themselves with something the public find desirable or admirable. And clubs need fans to support them, to "invest" their time and money to follow the team. Public opinion is therefore vital and Evans is poison.

In terms of second chances, I don't think there really needs to be ban on clubs signing him (although it also wouldn't bother me if the FA did establish some sort of "fit and proper" test for players) but I think any club that did would be pretty stupid to do so unless/until his image improves significantly. Judging by his statement today I think that penny might finally have dropped but too late, in my opinion.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Taking Evans out of this for a minute, the issue is a convicted criminal being able to return to work after serving time.

My take on this depends on whether the crime was "work "related or not,  For instance an accountant being convicted of fraud needs to find a new career as nobody will ever trust him again, 

Contrast that with the *same accountant being convicted of GBH or rape after a drunken night out*,   Not related to his job at all, therefore he should be able to return to that same line of work after his sentence.

Now bring Evans back into the arguement.  He didnt commit any crime ON THE PITCH, therefore his crime has nothing to do with his work.  It is purely the fact that footballers are seen as "role models" that is keeping him out of a job. Which I feel is wrong.

Lets also ask the question of what happens to him if he cannot return to football. he is young, fit, healthy and unskilled, he could learn a trade, or he could easily end up on the dole being supported by the tax payer....
OR
he could return to football, not be a burden on society and able to make a sizable contribution to a rape charity 

If we as a society are unwilling to give our ex convicts a second chance, then we might as well throw away the keys 

It will be interesting to see what the Criminal Case Review Board come up with, I just wish they would get on with it
		
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Kind of facetious question but I think one worth making, what if the accountant had been convicted of rape as he was a sober serial rapist?  Is there a difference in severity of a rape conviction? Would they still be able to return to work?


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## bluewolf (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think the "role model" argument is entirely spurious, but there may be too much being made of it.

However, what Evans and the clubs that have considered signing him are discovering is that professional footballer is a high profile job. Amongst other things, clubs need to attract a level of sponsorship to be able to operate. Businesses don't sponsor clubs out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to raise their profile, to associate themselves with something the public find desirable or admirable. And clubs need fans to support them, to "invest" their time and money to follow the team. Public opinion is therefore vital and Evans is poison.

In terms of second chances, I don't think there really needs to be ban on clubs signing him (although it also wouldn't bother me if the FA did establish some sort of "fit and proper" test for players) but I think any club that did would be pretty stupid to do so unless/until his image improves significantly. Judging by his statement today I think that penny might finally have dropped but too late, in my opinion.
		
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Hammer meet nail..

Football is a Public Relations Business now.. It's one of the downsides of the vast amounts of money in the modern game. You may not like it, but Mr Evans is now realizing that whilst he may be obliged a second chance, there isn't a football club around that will give him one unless they are completely financially independent.. If you dance with the devil!!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of facetious question but I think one worth making, what if the accountant had been convicted of rape as he was a sober serial rapist?  Is there a difference in severity of a rape conviction? Would they still be able to return to work?
		
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I think a sober serial rapist would be getting a huge prison sentence, and if  still considered a risk to the public at the end , they should not be released


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of facetious question but I think one worth making, what if the accountant had been convicted of rape as he was a sober serial rapist?  Is there a difference in severity of a rape conviction? Would they still be able to return to work?
		
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Bad example anyway, I'm pretty sure a convicted rapist accountant would lose their practising certificate.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I think a sober serial rapist would be getting a huge prison sentence, and if  still considered a risk to the public at the end , they should not be released
		
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But the point I am making is that just applying the 'everyone should be given a second chance if it is not directly work related' rule to all situations is very problematic to me.  In general I agree that if you've done your time, show signs of remorse and/or indicated you are willing to change then you should get a second chance.  But there are some cases where morally (and this is a moral and to some extent commercial situation he is in now, as legally he has not been stopped from playing football in this country) people will not be comfortable with someone convicted of horrible crimes against a person being able to do certain things.  And this to me is one of them.


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## brendy (Jan 8, 2015)

For what its worth, the more I read up on this case the worse it looks for the police and claimant. Evans while silly does look to have been unjustly convicted.
http://www.chedevans.com/   the girl has had a previous allegation of rape lodged, tweeted that she was going to get off on holidays, get matching cars etc.
Police had decided upon rape 15 mins after the initial conversation with her when all she wanted to report was a stolen handbag and phone (which she had left outside the takeaway). The police asked her what she did the previous night then went straight to rape investigation.  Her alcohol levels were zero when tested (she had consumed 2 glasses of wine and a couple of large vodkas but nothing to make her properly steaming drunk) though Cocaine and others were found though, in a 19 year old?
 There are a couple of videos on there from hotel CCTV which discredits the prosecutions claim that she was incapable of practically anything, wearing high heels, she is able to bend over and pick up a pizza box from the path better than I could sober...all sounds very iffy.
I dont know nor really warm to Evans but I cant help but think he has been dumped upon simply for being a footballer and a bit thick.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

brendy said:



			For what its worth, the more I read up on this case the worse it looks for the police and claimant. Evans while silly does look to have been unjustly convicted.
http://www.chedevans.com/   the girl has had a previous allegation of rape lodged, tweeted that she was going to get off on holidays, get matching cars etc.
Police had decided upon rape 15 mins after the initial conversation with her when all she wanted to report was a stolen handbag and phone (which she had left outside the takeaway). The police asked her what she did the previous night then went straight to rape investigation.  Her alcohol levels were zero when tested (she had consumed 2 glasses of wine and a couple of large vodkas but nothing to make her properly steaming drunk) though Cocaine and others were found though, in a 19 year old?
 There are a couple of videos on there from hotel CCTV which discredits the prosecutions claim that she was incapable of practically anything, wearing high heels, she is able to bend over and pick up a pizza box from the path better than I could sober...all sounds very iffy.
I dont know nor really warm to Evans but I cant help but think he has been dumped upon simply for being a footballer.
		
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Personally, I tend to go with the findings of a jury who heard all the evidence and an appeal court judge who looked to see whether there were grounds for appeal, rather than the victim-blaming abuse contained in the rapist's truth-distorting website.

Not a good post to propagate the harassment of the victim here, Brendy.


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## brendy (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Personally, I tend to go with the findings of a jury who heard all the evidence and an appeal court judge who looked to see whether there were grounds for appeal, rather than the victim-blaming abuse contained in the rapist's truth-distorting website.

Not a good post to propagate the harassment of the victim here, Brendy.
		
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No harassment fairwaydodger, noone knows who she is.
There is a page on there with undisputable facts as read out in court. 
I have 3 daughters so am trying g to see it from her point of view too, but no signs of struggle, no "residue", the two men were the only parties in the case that even mentioned having sex, if they did do something more sinister, would they not have denied it altogether? I dunno, there are just some aspects of this that seem wrong. The media, political outcry etc seems ironic seeing as there are so many sportsmen (and women) that have been convicted of illegal activities including death by dadangerous driving, fraud, drug smuggling etc plus the media themselves are not whiter than white neither.
even Oldham athletic are behaving oddly.Marlon King  convicted of fraud, handling stolength cars, sexual assault amongst others was jailed.  When he got out, guess who signed him?


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Personally, I tend to go with the findings of a jury who heard all the evidence and an appeal court judge who looked to see whether there were grounds for appeal, rather than the victim-blaming abuse contained in the rapist's truth-distorting website.

Not a good post to propagate the harassment of the victim here, Brendy.
		
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Tend to agree with you FD. As to the Police's suggested knee jerk response... that's something the Police don't do in a case like this, and if they did it wouldn't get past the CPS.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

brendy said:



			For what its worth, the more I read up on this case the worse it looks for the police and claimant. Evans while silly does look to have been unjustly convicted.
http://www.chedevans.com/   the girl has had a previous allegation of rape lodged, tweeted that she was going to get off on holidays, get matching cars etc.
Police had decided upon rape 15 mins after the initial conversation with her when all she wanted to report was a stolen handbag and phone (which she had left outside the takeaway). The police asked her what she did the previous night then went straight to rape investigation.  Her alcohol levels were zero when tested (she had consumed 2 glasses of wine and a couple of large vodkas but nothing to make her properly steaming drunk) though Cocaine and others were found though, in a 19 year old?
 There are a couple of videos on there from hotel CCTV which discredits the prosecutions claim that she was incapable of practically anything, wearing high heels, she is able to bend over and pick up a pizza box from the path better than I could sober...all sounds very iffy.
I dont know nor really warm to Evans but I cant help but think he has been dumped upon simply for being a footballer and a bit thick.
		
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Good post & pretty much how I see it.


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## Val (Jan 8, 2015)

Brendy, your last few lines are spot on IMO, I've heard this many times from people from the Rhyl area who know way more about this case than anyone on here, I'm reluctant to say too much.

Not condoning it but my opinion on it is that this case may not even have went to court had Evans been a joiner/brickie or whatever


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

brendy said:



			No harassment fairwaydodger, noone knows who she is.
There is a page on there with undisputable facts as read out in court. 
I have 3 daughters so am trying g to see it from her point of view too, but no signs of struggle, no "residue", the two men were the only parties in the case that even mentioned having sex, if they did do something more sinister, would they not have denied it altogether? I dunno, there are just some aspects of this that seem wrong. The media, political outcry etc seems ironic seeing as there are so many sportsmen (and women) that have been convicted of illegal activities including death by dadangerous driving, fraud, drug smuggling etc plus the media themselves are not whiter than white neither.
even Oldham athletic are behaving oddly.Marlon King  convicted of fraud, handling stolength cars, sexual assault amongst others was jailed.  When he got out, guess who signed him?
		
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So because she didn't "struggle" she wasn't raped? You're well off beam with your comments here.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 8, 2015)

H



Val said:



			Brendy, your last few lines are spot on IMO, I've heard this many times from people from the Rhyl area who know way more about this case than anyone on here, I'm reluctant to say too much.

Not condoning it but my opinion on it is that this case may not even have went to court had Evans been a joiner/brickie or whatever
		
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And yet it did go to court and he was found guilty and his appeal was denied. All the mud-slinging victim blaming on that damn website and via these mysterious people you know etc etc have gone a long way to ruining that poor girl's life.

If your last sentence is true the offensive thing about that is not that Evans went to court but that the brickie would have got away with it.


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## Rumpokid (Jan 8, 2015)

What a load of rubbish this whole circus is..Let him play football..Yes play football, and if he gets paid for it, so be it..Death threats to Oldham sponsors and others, how sick are these people??....Give SuperChed a chance, let him play.


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## bozza (Jan 8, 2015)

Did her previous allegation of rape bring a conviction? 

Just curious.


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## brendy (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			So because she didn't "struggle" she wasn't raped? You're well off beam with your comments here.
		
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Whoa, hang on, I am basing  my thoughts going by witness statement, given in court,  they were both overheard to be playfully enjoying themselves (he and she).
There is no actual evidence of any foul play though, it was purely the Police who suggested rape.


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## brendy (Jan 8, 2015)

bozza said:



			Did her previous allegation of rape bring a conviction? 

Just curious.
		
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Apparently not.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

Rumpokid said:



			What a load of rubbish this whole circus is..Let him play football..Yes play football, and if he gets paid for it, so be it..Death threats to Oldham sponsors and others, how sick are these people??....Give SuperChed a chance, let him play.
		
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SuperChed?  Really???


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## c1973 (Jan 8, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			I have just been reading on Sky News that the Ched Evans Oldham move has been scrapped, didnt read the details , but ive seen other  comments re sponsors pulling out etc if clubs sign him ..

Now this thread is NOT about the guilt or non guilt of him or anyone else for that matter . its just his story got me thinking .

*If you commit a crime and get caught and serve your time , when you serve your sentence should / shouldnt you be allowed to get on with your life ,* i know sponsors have the right to invest their money as they see fit but is it fair that someone can pay their dues (for want of better term) but still carry the consequences , is this not a 2nd punishment  ?..


I can appreciate the thoughts will vary differently if you were the family of the Victim over the family of the accused / guilty but what about as a complete stranger / outsider 

Now i know this can be an emotive subject and if any mod wants to just pull the thread just work away guys for the rest of us just respect others answers even if they differ from your own please ,


Thanks
		
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Yes, you should.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2015)

brendy said:



			No harassment fairwaydodger, noone knows who she is.
There is a page on there with undisputable facts as read out in court. 
I have 3 daughters so am trying g to see it from her point of view too, but no signs of struggle, no "residue", the two men were the only parties in the case that even mentioned having sex, if they did do something more sinister, would they not have denied it altogether? I dunno, there are just some aspects of this that seem wrong. The media, political outcry etc seems ironic seeing as there are so many sportsmen (and women) that have been convicted of illegal activities including death by dadangerous driving, fraud, drug smuggling etc plus the media themselves are not whiter than white neither.
even Oldham athletic are behaving oddly.Marlon King  convicted of fraud, handling stolength cars, sexual assault amongst others was jailed.  When he got out, guess who signed him?
		
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Hang on a minute! This is not a re-trial. We are not determining his Guilt or Innocence. That has already been done. He's disputing it and taking steps to change it, but that's beside the point at this stage!

Evans was found guilty on the basis of that, and other, evidence - end of story for me unless the submission to the CCRC involves that evidence! And that can only be properly decided by the CCRC imo!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Hang on a minute! This is not a re-trial. We are not determining his Guilt or Innocence. That has already been done. He's disputing it and taking steps to change it, but that's beside the point at this stage!

Evans was found guilty on the basis of that, and other, evidence - end of story for me unless the submission to the CCRC involves that evidence! And that can only be properly decided by the CCRC imo!
		
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Good point well made.  Can I nominate you as a mod?


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## Rumpokid (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			SuperChed?  Really???
		
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If you had been on the Bramall Lane Kop, when he was scoring for fun, yes..It is meant in footballing terms..Have you ever been to a match?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

Rumpokid said:



			If you had been on the Bramall Lane Kop, when he was scoring for fun, yes..It is meant in footballing terms..Have you ever been to a match?
		
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Oh that's OK then, even though he's a convicted rapist it's OK to call him 'super' in the context of this thread on a discussion about rehabilitation as he scored lots of goals for your team.


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## User20205 (Jan 8, 2015)

It's been said on a previous thread. The only facts are; that he's a un-rehabilitated serious sex offender. He was convicted in court, and had no grounds for appeal. Everything else is supposition. 

The first step to rehabilitation and earning the right to take your place back in society is acceptance and apology for the crimes committed. Until then he's toxic and no one will touch him. 

The fact that others have committed shameful acts and been accepted back into football is to the shame of the sport.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

brendy said:



			For what its worth, the more I read up on this case the worse it looks for the police and claimant. Evans while silly does look to have been unjustly convicted.
http://www.chedevans.com/   the girl has had a previous allegation of rape lodged, tweeted that she was going to get off on holidays, get matching cars etc.
Police had decided upon rape 15 mins after the initial conversation with her when all she wanted to report was a stolen handbag and phone (which she had left outside the takeaway). The police asked her what she did the previous night then went straight to rape investigation.  Her alcohol levels were zero when tested (she had consumed 2 glasses of wine and a couple of large vodkas but nothing to make her properly steaming drunk) though Cocaine and others were found though, in a 19 year old?
 There are a couple of videos on there from hotel CCTV which discredits the prosecutions claim that she was incapable of practically anything, wearing high heels, she is able to bend over and pick up a pizza box from the path better than I could sober...all sounds very iffy.
I dont know nor really warm to Evans but I cant help but think he has been dumped upon simply for being a footballer and a bit thick.
		
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Isn't using the Ched evans website to defend his actions a bit like using the BNP website to defend racism?
Reading the court papers, Evans mate and the girl left in a taxi, evans followed later, evans and the night porter listened through the door at what was going on, evans went in, afterwards he left via the fire escape!
Even though the room was booked in his name.
IMO until he clears his name his is a convicted sex offender and unlucky if you have to find a new job. If he wins his appeal and clears his name good luck to him and continue playing football.
I'm in the Forces and if you are sent to jail. You would be discharged and could not resume your career after release.
As for the other 2 footballers playing again after killing somebody whilst drink driving, they accepted full responsibility for there actions.


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## Rumpokid (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Oh that's OK then, even though he's a convicted rapist it's OK to call him 'super' as he scored for your team. 

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I will say this only once, make it easy for you,... before this case, that he is appealing, he was scoring for fun, and yes he was SuperChed, Capiche????


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## Beezerk (Jan 8, 2015)

Rumpokid said:



			What a load of rubbish this whole circus is..
		
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I heard Graham Taylor on the radio earlier, this latest episode sounds more like a P.F.A. publicity stunt the more I learn.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Hang on a minute! This is not a re-trial. We are not determining his Guilt or Innocence. That has already been done. He's disputing it and taking steps to change it, but that's beside the point at this stage!

Evans was found guilty on the basis of that, and other, evidence - end of story for me unless the submission to the CCRC involves that evidence! And that can only be properly decided by the CCRC imo!
		
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A good reply, I agree fully.

Also; is there a shortage of people who can play football?    Are there not talented kids in abundance who would relish the opportunity of playing for a club?   I am sure football can survive without him. 

The guy hasn't served his sentence yet, he is just out on licence and still serving it while out of prison.   What kind of role model is he anyway, do we want convicted rapists entertaining us; I don't think so!


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

therod said:



			The first step to rehabilitation and earning the right to take your place back in society is acceptance and apology for the crimes committed. Until then he's toxic and no one will touch him.
		
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If you were accused & even found guilty of something that you knew deep down you didn't do would you apologise?? 
I know I wouldn't,especially if it was something like rape which would stick with you for the rest of your life.


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## User20205 (Jan 8, 2015)

Rumpokid said:



			If you had been on the Bramall Lane Kop, when he was scoring for fun, yes..It is meant in footballing terms..Have you ever been to a match?
		
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I've been there and to the other lot a few times. Going to a match or otherwise doesn't insulate you from being able to see the bigger picture. 

It bothers me that being a football supporter, sometimes somehow, is used an excuse for leaving common sense at the door. It's like the myopic tribalism is blinding


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			If you were accused & even found guilty of something that you knew deep down you didn't do would you apologise?? 
I know I wouldn't,especially if it was something like rape which would stick with you for the rest of your life.
		
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Absolutely agree, however, surely you wouldn't expect your life to return to normal while you did fight


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## User20205 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			If you were accused & even found guilty of something that you knew deep down you didn't do would you apologise?? 
I know I wouldn't,especially if it was something like rape which would stick with you for the rest of your life.
		
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I wouldn't be found guilty because I wouldn't have done it. He did and should as a minimum.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely agree, however, surely you wouldn't expect your life to return to normal while you did fight
		
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Yes fair point :thup:


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

therod said:



			I wouldn't be found guilty because I wouldn't have done it. He did and should as a minimum.
		
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So you wouldn't sleep with a women or man that had been drinking?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

He was never going to get a fair trial. 
Footballer accused of rape. Open & shut case IMO.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

I give it till 8.15 tops and this thread will go the way of the other one.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			He was never going to get a fair trial. 
Footballer accused of rape. Open & shut case IMO.
		
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Really?? Come on, you are better than that comment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			He was never going to get a fair trial. 
Footballer accused of rape. Open & shut case IMO.
		
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His co-accused was Clayton MacDonald also a professional footballer was found not guilty


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I give it till 8.15 tops and this thread will go the way of the other one.
		
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Probably right,or on this occasion people might respect others opinion & discuss it without it getting silly.


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## Rumpokid (Jan 8, 2015)

therod said:



			I've been there and to the other lot a few times. Going to a match or otherwise doesn't insulate you from being able to see the bigger picture. 

It bothers me that being a football supporter, sometimes somehow, is used an excuse for leaving common sense at the door. It's like the myopic tribalism is blinding 

Click to expand...

If you read my posts correctly, they are in the past tense, however, lets see how the appeal goes eh??


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## User20205 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			So you wouldn't sleep with a women or man that had been drinking?
		
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Not that was so drunk they were incapable of consenting. That's not the argument though is it. 

He's been convicted, he's a sex offender and he's shown no contrition.

If it comes to pass that a miscarriage of justice has occurred then he would be free to carry on his career and have my every sympathy, but as it currently stands that's not the case. 

He either clears his name, or accepts his wrong doing, he's got no future otherwise.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			His co-accused was Clayton MacDonald also a professional footballer was found not guilty
		
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Come on tho no way could they find him guilty,what did she think was going to happen when going back to his room??


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## Rumpokid (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I give it till 8.15 tops and this thread will go the way of the other one.
		
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Shouldn't do, free speech, reasonable debate and opinion..Maybe it is wishful thinking on your part?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Come on tho no way could they find him guilty,what did she think was going to happen when going back to his room??
		
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So as Evans didn't go back to the room with her, what did he think might happen?


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			He was never going to get a fair trial. 
Footballer accused of rape. Open & shut case IMO.
		
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A simple search will show quite a number of footballers who've been accused of rape, and subsequently found not guilty....


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

Rumpokid said:



			If you read my posts correctly, they are in the past tense, however, lets see how the appeal goes eh??
		
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_'Give SuperChed a chance let him play'_

Enlighten me how this is in the past tense?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

therod said:



			Not that was so drunk they were incapable of consenting. That's not the argument though is it. 
.
		
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This May shock you but people get drunk every wk end & hook up & have sex,(one night stands),can't see many people sitting down & conforming that they both agree to what is about to happen. 
Maybe sign a contract?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So as Evans didn't go back to the room with her, what did he think might happen?
		
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He thought he was going to have sex with her
Don't think he's denied that.


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## User20205 (Jan 8, 2015)

Rumpokid said:



			If you read my posts correctly, they are in the past tense, however, lets see how the appeal goes eh??
		
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 Absolutely, I'll let foxy tidy up the legal pedantry but my understanding is it's not an appeal. To appeal new evidence has to come to light. I believe it's a case review based on the original evidence, in which case, in the absence of anything new, the result should be the same.
I also believe this hasn't been granted by the legal system, it's being financed by his girlfriends dads deep pockets. 

I don't think he's a proper nasty piece of work like marlon king. He's just a bit stupid. He made a huge error of judgement and every since has been poorly advised.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

I'm more surprised that his Mrs as stood by him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			He thought he was going to have sex with her
Don't think he's denied that.
		
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He's never denied it, agreed, it's just she didn't know he was


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			He's never denied it, agreed, it's just she didn't
		
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So she says.


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## User20205 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			This May shock you but people get drunk every wk end & hook up & have sex,(one night stands),can't see many people sitting down & conforming that they both agree to what is about to happen. 
Maybe sign a contract?
		
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That's the crux of the case though mate. Consent isn't the lack of a no, consent is a positive yes. It's not about a written contract, it's about predatory behaviour. He got convicted despite the lack of a no because he made a really bad choice driven by predatory behaviour.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			So she says.
		
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She never cried rape, according to her statement she had no knowledge of events or sleeping with him, so not consensual, following them back and sneaking out aren't exactly normal behaviour


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## Val (Jan 8, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			H

And yet it did go to court and he was found guilty and his appeal was denied. All the mud-slinging victim blaming on that damn website and via these mysterious people you know etc etc have gone a long way to ruining that poor girl's life.

If your last sentence is true the offensive thing about that is not that Evans went to court but that the brickie would have got away with it.
		
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Karen, I know a bit more about this through work connections and I'm not going to post anymore on it. Let me just say this, it wouldnt be the first time a trial got the wrong verdict. 

I'm out, you are the last person on here I want to be arguing this case with. Take that as a compliment not a criticism.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

therod said:



			That's the crux of the case though mate. Consent isn't the lack of a no, consent is a positive yes. It's not about a written contract, it's about predatory behaviour. He got convicted despite the lack of a no because he made a really bad choice driven by predatory behaviour.
		
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But how could you prove that she said a definite yes? 
None of us know what really happened. 
Lots of people get wrongly convicted. 
I'm not saying he's innocent,but none of us know he's guilty. 
If he is innocent then he right to try his best to clear his name.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			She never cried rape, according to her statement she had no knowledge of events or sleeping with him, so not consensual, following them back and sneaking out aren't exactly normal behaviour
		
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I think this is what went against him tbh(the sneaking out).
But he as got a partner & possibly didn't want to be recognised leaving the hotel. 
Either way he's a dirty dog.


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## bozza (Jan 8, 2015)

Lets just say he does get a retrial and is found innocent for whatever reason should this girl/woman be pubicly named/shamed and also have to struggle to find work like Ched Evans?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			But how could you prove that she said a definite yes? 
None of us know what really happened. 
Lots of people get wrongly convicted. 
I'm not saying he's innocent,but none of us know he's guilty. 
If he is innocent then he right to try his best to clear his name.
		
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So what we do know through the media and court papers is that he was found guilty and until he clears his name he should focus on that, he should not expect everyone else to look away on let him get on with his life. 
If he fails with his review will he retire and disappear or expect people to forget and let him carry on, who knows?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			I think this is what went against him tbh(the sneaking out).
But he as got a partner & possibly didn't want to be recognised leaving the hotel. 
Either way he's a dirty dog.
		
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So why did he book the Hotel room in his name, we keep finding reasons to defend his actions.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

bozza said:



			Lets just say he does get a retrial and is found innocent for whatever reason should this girl/woman be pubicly named/shamed and also have to struggle to find work like Ched Evans?
		
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I can see your point,but no she shouldn't be shamed as this would stop genuine victims coming foward in future. 

PS: I'm not saying the girl in question isn't genuine


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

bozza said:



			Lets just say he does get a retrial and is found innocent for whatever reason should this girl/woman be pubicly named/shamed and also have to struggle to find work like Ched Evans?
		
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Apparently she has had to change her name and move to a new area due to threats against her and all this whilst she is the "victim" god knows what will happen to her if found to be a liar, maybe done for wasting Police time?


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## Beezerk (Jan 8, 2015)

therod said:



			Absolutely, I'll let foxy tidy up the legal pedantry but my understanding is it's not an appeal. To appeal new evidence has to come to light. I believe it's a case review based on the original evidence, in which case, in the absence of anything new, the result should be the same.
I also believe this hasn't been granted by the legal system, it's being financed by his girlfriends dads deep pockets.
		
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He's already had one appeal thrown out hasn't he?
If this latest one goes tats up expect the grovelling apology blah blah blah...


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So what we do know through the media and court papers is that he was found guilty and until he clears his name he should focus on that, he should not expect everyone else to look away on let him get on with his life. 
If he fails with his review will he retire and disappear or expect people to forget and let him carry on, who knows?
		
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Yes he was found guilty,but look at the Oscar Pistorius verdict. 

If he does fail with his review I don't know what should happen tbh. 

Personally I don't think he raped her. 
That just my honest opinion from all the facts ive read.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Yes he was found guilty,but look at the Oscar Pistorius verdict. 

If he does fail with his review I don't know what should happen tbh. 

Personally I don't think he raped her. 
That just my honest opinion from all the facts ive read.
		
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To me the word rape conjures up force, did he force her? In my mind no, but I don't think she consented either and that's were the people with bigger brains than mine can explain the legal side.


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## c1973 (Jan 8, 2015)

bozza said:



			Lets just say he does get a retrial and is found innocent for whatever reason should this girl/woman be pubicly named/shamed and also have to struggle to find work like Ched Evans?
		
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Yes, she should be named.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			To me the word rape conjures up force, did he force her? In my mind no, but I don't think she consented either and that's were the people with bigger brains than mine can explain the legal side.
		
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Yes I think once people ear the word rape,or peadophile we assume that theyre guilty because it's such a horrible thing. 
Probably just human nature.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2015)

He was found guilty by his peers in a jury, this is the system we have to decide guilt or innocence, it's not perfect but it's what we have.   Now, people have been convicted who were not guilty but until an appeal decides this we must accept the Juries decision.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2015)

To say this thread was not supposed to be about his guilt or innocence it sure looks like it is now


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			To say this thread was not supposed to be about his guilt or innocence it sure looks like it is now

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They're completely linked, you wouldn't have the thread if the question was "Should innocent people be given a second chance"
I would say it's fair and peoples opinions are being respected.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 8, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			He was found guilty by his peers in a jury, this is the system we have to decide guilt or innocence, it's not perfect but it's what we have.   Now, people have been convicted who were not guilty but until an appeal decides this we must accept the Juries decision.
		
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That may be true, it doesn't necessarily make it or the verdict right.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2015)

therod said:



			Absolutely, I'll let foxy tidy up the legal pedantry but my understanding is it's not an appeal. To appeal new evidence has to come to light. I believe it's a case review based on the original evidence, in which case, in the absence of anything new, the result should be the same.
		
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Appeals can be for more than just new evidence - Procedural errors, including the Judges summary or competency (or otherwise) of Council for example. As far as I'm aware, The Appeal Court does not rule on whether the Jury should have found him Guilty or not.

CCRC is actually the body that rules on whether a conviction is unsafe or not! So that's the body that could question whether the Jury should have found him Guilty or not. At least imo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Cases_Review_Commission


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## Fish (Jan 8, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			To me the word rape conjures up force, did he force her? In my mind no, but I don't think she consented either and that's were the people with bigger brains than mine can explain the legal side.
		
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Why do you need a legal side to define that, if you had a daughter that stupidly got drunk or took drugs due to per pressure and was in a position of not knowing what was happening or couldn't comprehend anything at that time, is it not rape that someone who is fully coherent takes advantage of that situation and has sex with them just because they couldn't or who were unable to say no at the time! Its rape, end of, he shows IMO no remorse in any way and can't be anyone that youngsters should look up to so for me, no second chance, its not fraud, its not theft, its rape for gods sake, no second chances for such a despicable crime that doesn't happen by accident!


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

Fish said:



			Why do you need a legal side to define that, if you had a daughter that stupidly got drunk or took drugs due to per pressure and was in a position of not knowing what was happening or couldn't comprehend anything at that time, is it not rape that someone who is fully coherent takes advantage of that situation and has sex with them just because they couldn't or who were unable to say no at the time! Its rape, end of, he shows IMO no remorse in any way and can't be anyone that youngsters should look up to so for me, no second chance, its not fraud, its not theft, its rape for gods sake, no second chances for such a despicable crime that doesn't happen by accident!
		
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He shows no remorse because he believes that he's innocent.


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## garyinderry (Jan 8, 2015)

He claims she did consent.  That's the thing. She then can't remember anything in the morning.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 8, 2015)

To be honest I thought the statement issued was pretty robust given what he can and can't say while proceedings continue. However he's clearly classed, rightly or wrongly in the game by sponsors and fans in particular as damaged goods and a persona non gratis. I do think that's harsh as he was imprisoned and whether he wins the current case or not, he's out on licence and so eligible to ply his trade. I would think he'll perhaps drop down to the lowest tier of the conference and even then I think he'll struggle to find a club (and sponsors and fans) willing to take him. I guess it'll ultimately depend how the proceedings play out


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2015)

Fish said:



			Why do you need a legal side to define that, if you had a daughter that stupidly got drunk or took drugs due to per pressure and was in a position of not knowing what was happening or couldn't comprehend anything at that time, is it not rape that someone who is fully coherent takes advantage of that situation and has sex with them just because they couldn't or who were unable to say no at the time! Its rape, end of, he shows IMO no remorse in any way and can't be anyone that youngsters should look up to so for me, no second chance, its not fraud, its not theft, its rape for gods sake, no second chances for such a despicable crime that doesn't happen by accident!
		
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My Bad English, I understand what Rape is, but I don't know the legal definition, ie, difference between Rape and other sexual offences. I agree with what you put,


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			He claims she did consent.  That's the thing. She then can't remember anything in the morning.
		
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How smashed do you have to be to not be able to remember anything?


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## Fish (Jan 8, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			He claims she did consent.  That's the thing. She then can't remember anything in the morning.
		
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So did she allegedly consent whilst he knew she was totally wasted and not coherent to what was really happening and took advantage, is that not still technically rape, if it happened in that way, it would be in my book!


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## garyinderry (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			How smashed do you have to be to not be able to remember anything?
		
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Being let loose with a litre bottle of vodka helps. :rofl:


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## Fish (Jan 8, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			How smashed do you have to be to not be able to remember anything?
		
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I've been their, I won't remember any of this tomorrow!


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 8, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Being let loose with a litre bottle of vodka helps. :rofl:
		
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After a litre bottle of Vodka I'd be a waste of time tbh:-/


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## garyinderry (Jan 8, 2015)

Fish said:



			So did she allegedly consent whilst he knew she was totally wasted and not coherent to what was really happening and took advantage, is that not still technically rape, if it happened in that way, it would be in my book!
		
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I still don't completely buy the whole '' she went back to the hotel with one of them so she is consenting with him''.   going to a hotel room is not a green light for intercourse.  

She was as drunk if not drunker when she first met cheds mate. How can it be ok for him to get a 'drunken green light' but not ched?


Both rapists or neither imo.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2015)

Fish said:



			I've been their, I won't remember any of this tomorrow!
		
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Spartacus


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## bladeplayer (Jan 8, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			To say this thread was not supposed to be about his guilt or innocence it sure looks like it is now

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Well it wasnt suppose to be ha , it was this case that got me thinking about the whole subject .. 

Ah well


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 8, 2015)

I haven't followed this case so I don't really know all the ins and outs but I do have a little bit of personal experience.

I was called up for jury service in 2000 and the case I was assigned to was a guy accused of interferring with his stepdaughter. There were no witnesses, no DNA, no CCTV......nothing. Just a girl saying he touched her and a guy saying he didn't. Unfortunately, it was almost comical with all the women on the jury screaming for his blood and the guys trying to analyse the situation a bit deeper. The guy was found guilty on a majority verdict. The law states that you are innocent until *proved* guilty. I fail to see how there was any proof he committed the crime that he was accused of.

Now, going back to the Ched Evans case.......like I said, I don't know the facts of the case but it appears sex happened, the question is was it consensual? It may have been and the woman then had regrets and cried rape or it may have been rape all along, I don't know. 

My point is......only 2 people know for sure what happened so who are we to judge if the guy deserves a 2nd chance or not?


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			I'm out, you are the last person on here I want to be arguing this case with. Take that as a compliment not a criticism.
		
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Likewise Martin, an emotive and divisive subject.


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## Wildrover (Jan 9, 2015)

For what it's worth imho convicted criminals should be allowed to resume their career on release/parole as long as it wasn't a work related crime.

In Evans' case I believe he should be allowed to resume playing as he has served his time in prison and is now out on licence, the length of time served is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with him, that's down to the Judge who presided over the case and our criminal justice system.
The fact he still maintains his innocence is irrelevant to resuming his career, if he were a road sweeper nobody would care. The easiest thing for him would have been to admit guilt whilst in prison, he would have been out earlier probably and already playing somewhere.
I do not buy into the "footballers are role models" argument either. Lee Hughes, Luke McCormack and Marlon King to name 3 were allowed to play again so are we saying to kids "it's ok to drink drive and kill people or assault someone, just don't be a rapist". Notwithstanding those 3 I wouldn't want my kids using most footballers as a role model, John Terry, Ryan Giggs, Mario Balotelli, Tony Adams, Paul Merson, Rio Ferdinand all not exactly great role models.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2015)

Wildrover said:



*For what it's worth imho convicted criminals should be allowed to resume their career on release/parole as long as it wasn't a work related crime.*

In Evans' case I believe he should be allowed to resume playing as he has served his time in prison and is now out on licence, the length of time served is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with him, that's down to the Judge who presided over the case and our criminal justice system.
The fact he still maintains his innocence is irrelevant to resuming his career, if he were a road sweeper nobody would care. The easiest thing for him would have been to admit guilt whilst in prison, he would have been out earlier probably and already playing somewhere.
I do not buy into the "footballers are role models" argument either. Lee Hughes, Luke McCormack and Marlon King to name 3 were allowed to play again so are we saying to kids "it's ok to drink drive and kill people or assault someone, just don't be a rapist". Notwithstanding those 3 I wouldn't want my kids using most footballers as a role model, John Terry, Ryan Giggs, Mario Balotelli, Tony Adams, Paul Merson, Rio Ferdinand all not exactly great role models.
		
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What if it had been a Doctor, should he be allowed to return to work, what about a High Court Judge?    What if the Road Sweeper had sexually assaulted a child?


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## ger147 (Jan 9, 2015)

Wildrover said:



			For what it's worth imho convicted criminals should be allowed to resume their career on release/parole as long as it wasn't a work related crime.

In Evans' case I believe he should be allowed to resume playing as he has served his time in prison and is now out on licence, the length of time served is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with him, that's down to the Judge who presided over the case and our criminal justice system.
The fact he still maintains his innocence is irrelevant to resuming his career, if he were a road sweeper nobody would care. The easiest thing for him would have been to admit guilt whilst in prison, he would have been out earlier probably and already playing somewhere.
I do not buy into the "footballers are role models" argument either. Lee Hughes, Luke McCormack and Marlon King to name 3 were allowed to play again so are we saying to kids "it's ok to drink drive and kill people or assault someone, just don't be a rapist". Notwithstanding those 3 I wouldn't want my kids using most footballers as a role model, John Terry, Ryan Giggs, Mario Balotelli, Tony Adams, Paul Merson, Rio Ferdinand all not exactly great role models.
		
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Not as simple as that. I'm sure you would be none too chuffed if you found out your kid's school teacher was a paedo but was allowed back to work after getting out of prison as he didn't abuse any of the kids at his previous school.


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

Did anyone see question time last night? If so any views on the female MP who suggested Evans shouldn't have been convicted after she read details of the case in depth?


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## lobthewedge (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			Did anyone see question time last night? If so any views on the female MP who suggested Evans shouldn't have been convicted after she read details of the case in depth?
		
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Not sure she was an MP, think she is a journalist.

Either way, agreed with pretty much everything she said, as did a large portion of the audience who applauded her.


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

lobthewedge said:



			Not sure she was an MP, think she is a journalist.

Either way, agreed with pretty much everything she said, as did a large portion of the audience who applauded her.
		
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You may be right, journalist. 

This case isn't as black and white as people think.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			What if it had been a Doctor, should he be allowed to return to work, what about a High Court Judge?    What if the Road Sweeper had sexually assaulted a child?
		
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If the person who has committed the crime isn't going to be in a position to do it again through their job then I see no reason to stop it. If a teacher does something with children then they can't go back to school. But a footy stadium isn't likely to be full of drunken women and a road sweep is hardly likely to come across too many either.


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## User20205 (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			You may be right, journalist. 

This case isn't as black and white as people think.
		
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No I'm sure it's not. However the only 'facts' are his conviction and lack of rehabilitation. The rest is supposition, opinion and heresay.   

How's the victim gonna feel with 30 k people (ok it's Oldham 2k people) chanting super ched?

He also suffers unfortunately because of the behaviour of his supporters.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I haven't followed this case so I don't really know all the ins and outs but I do have a little bit of personal experience.

I was called up for jury service in 2000 and the case I was assigned to was a guy accused of interferring with his stepdaughter. There were no witnesses, no DNA, no CCTV......nothing. Just a girl saying he touched her and a guy saying he didn't. Unfortunately, it was almost comical with all the women on the jury screaming for his blood and the guys trying to analyse the situation a bit deeper. The guy was found guilty on a majority verdict. The law states that you are innocent until *proved* guilty. I fail to see how there was any proof he committed the crime that he was accused of.

Now, going back to the Ched Evans case.......like I said, I don't know the facts of the case but it appears sex happened, the question is was it consensual? It may have been and the woman then had regrets and cried rape or it may have been rape all along, I don't know. 

My point is......only 2 people know for sure what happened so who are we to judge if the guy deserves a 2nd chance or not?
		
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I had similar thoughts to this. IN genreal convo when this comes up in the pub, it's been pretty much men saying whilst he may be guilty, plenty of us had got hammered and not remembered it fully. Where as all the women assume his guilt. When it came to a jury, not sure of the split for men and women. I'd imagine though that mesons views were more easily swayed to guilt than innocence.


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## User20205 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			If the person who has committed the crime isn't going to be in a position to do it again through their job then I see no reason to stop it. If a teacher does something with children then they can't go back to school. But a footy stadium isn't likely to be full of drunken women and a road sweep is hardly likely to come across too many either.
		
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He is being penalised because it's high profile. It's maybe not fair but it's understandable. It's not the potential for reoffence, it's the message it sends out. Football should clean house, no club should employ players convicted of serious, violent crime. There not just sporting businesses, they're supposed to represent the communities they exist in.


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## Wildrover (Jan 9, 2015)

Ger147 & Socketrocket

"As long as it isn't a work related crime" is what I said.

A doctor abusing his position or a paedo teacher clearly fall into the work related category.

I see no reason why a roadsweeper with a conviction for child abuse could not resume sweeping the roads on completion of their sentence.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

therod said:



			He is being penalised because it's high profile. It's maybe not fair but it's understandable. It's not the potential for reoffence, it's the message it sends out. Football should clean house, no club should employ players convicted of serious, violent crime. There not just sporting businesses, they're supposed to represent the communities they exist in.
		
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i think that's a very novel and noble idea. When we're footballers last role models? The 80's when they'd be off down the pub after a game? It's a business and in all business some people make a mistake. I don't see why people expect them to be role models just because of their wages. 

I think jealousy is a more likely cause for people's rage against him. If he were a bricky or road sweep he'd probably be back at work. Or if it was messi or Ronald's clubs would say sod it and play them anyway. 

How many of us in our tough did silly things whilst drunk, I'm not condoning rape. But on my estate most of us would of had asbos had they existed 15 years ago. Young lads from estates that make it to the big time can't have it trained out of them.


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## Paul_Stewart (Jan 9, 2015)

I did a piece on American radio on this subject.   Although the comments about being able to resume any other profession are valid, footballers are more in the public limelight by the very nature of their job and are hence, rightly or wrongly, held to a higher standard.     It is the same for any other major sport.   The Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice cases in the NFL have had the added implications of the league acting as judge, jury and executioner outside of the due legal process.

My own view is that once you have paid the time, you should be able to resume your life and career.  But the very nature of the career involved has made this impossible.


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## One Planer (Jan 9, 2015)

Paul_Stewart said:



			I did a piece on American radio on this subject.   Although the comments about being able to resume any other profession are valid, footballers are more in the public limelight by the very nature of their job and are hence, rightly or wrongly, held to a higher standard.     It is the same for any other major sport.   The Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice cases in the NFL have had the added implications of the league acting as judge, jury and executioner outside of the due legal process.

My own view is that once you have paid the time, you should be able to resume your life and career.  *But the very nature of the career involved has made this impossible*.
		
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Speaking on this specific point...... Didn't stop Michael Vick coming back to the NFL.



therod said:



			He is being penalised because it's high profile. It's maybe not fair but it's understandable. It's not the potential for reoffence, it's the message it sends out. Football should clean house, no club should employ players convicted of serious, violent crime. There not just sporting businesses, they're supposed to represent the communities they exist in.
		
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While I agree........ 

Joey Barton (Common Assault)

Tony Adams (Drink Driving)

Lee Hughes (Death by Dangerous Driving)

Marlon King...  Twice (Dangerous Driving, Sexual assault)

Luke McCormick (Death by Dangerous Driving)

I believe I'm right in thinking most of the above have come back to the game after serving their time?

I'm happy to be corrected if not :thup:


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## User20205 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			i think that's a very novel and noble idea. When we're footballers last role models? The 80's when they'd be off down the pub after a game? It's a business and in all business some people make a mistake. I don't see why people expect them to be role models just because of their wages. 

I think jealousy is a more likely cause for people's rage against him. If he were a bricky or road sweep he'd probably be back at work. Or if it was messi or Ronald's clubs would say sod it and play them anyway. 

How many of us in our tough did silly things whilst drunk, I'm not condoning rape. But on my estate most of us would of had asbos had they existed 15 years ago. Young lads from estates that make it to the big time can't have it trained out of them.
		
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See Paul's comments. Players aren't role models, but the sport should have standards and self police. Every time football, the FA, the premier league, the PFA etc etc are faced with a choice on these lines they seem to choose poorly.


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## User20205 (Jan 9, 2015)

Gareth said:



			Speaking on this specific point...... Didn't stop Michael Vick coming back to the NFL.



While I agree........ 

Joey Barton (Common Assault)

Tony Adams (Drink Driving)

Lee Hughes (Death by Dangerous Driving)

Marlon King...  Twice (Dangerous Driving, Sexual assault)

Luke McCormick (Death by Dangerous Driving)

I believe I'm right in thinking most of the above have come back to the game after serving their time?

I'm happy to be corrected if not :thup:
		
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Sounds about right. It's off topic but the fact marlon king, lee Hughes and the fella from Plymouth were welcomed back into the football family demonstrates in microcosm what is wrong with football.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Gareth said:



			Speaking on this specific point...... Didn't stop Michael Vick coming back to the NFL.



While I agree........ 

Joey Barton (Common Assault)

Tony Adams (Drink Driving)

Lee Hughes (Death by Dangerous Driving)

Marlon King...  Twice (Dangerous Driving, Sexual assault)

Luke McCormick (Death by Dangerous Driving)

I believe I'm right in thinking most of the above have come back to the game after serving their time?

I'm happy to be corrected if not :thup:
		
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Not condoning any of the above, bit they did accept responsibility, until he either clears his name or accepts responsibility and goes through rehabilitation, find another career.
It was his job that gave him the money and the profile to get in this situation and before he got involved in this he had no issues using his fame and wealth,
There are thousands of decent footballers who haven't put themselves in these situations.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

therod said:



			See Paul's comments. Players aren't role models, but the sport should have standards and self police. Every time football, the FA, the premier league, the PFA etc etc are faced with a choice on these lines they seem to choose poorly.
		
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But from a legal stand point, what can the fa do? Much like when people blame the England teams failings at world cups and say we have to limit "ruddy foreigners". I'd imagine banning the, for a criminal record (crime irrelevant) would be against their human rights.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			But from a legal stand point, what can the fa do? Much like when people blame the England teams failings at world cups and say we have to limit "ruddy foreigners". I'd imagine banning the, for a criminal record (crime irrelevant) would be against their human rights.
		
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The could do exactly what professional bodies like CIMA or the Law Society etc would do.

News reports today suggest they are considering implementing just such a system.


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## CMAC (Jan 9, 2015)

Question time last night had some good debate and some interesting points put across well from the panel and audiences. It certainly would make you think no matter what side of the argument you fell on initially.


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## Paul_Stewart (Jan 9, 2015)

On Michael Vick, I am sure the NFL imposed some additional restrictions on him.   The Falcons cut him as their owner Arthur "Walt Disney clone" Blank didn't want any bad publicity for the Home Depot chain that he also owned.     Same with the Ravens when the owner Steve Biscotti cut Rice although he was done as an NFL tail back anyway.    If it helped, we banned Vick from our fantasy league and no-one was allowed to select him.

Still on NFL terms, I have seen some serious double standards on supposed team behaviour.   The Bucs in the past 10 years have had two players caught drink driving.  One was a back-up offensive lineman who had hardly seen any playing time, the other was a starter and main offensive weapon.  Guess which one was immediately released "proving the team does not condone such actions" and which was not, "we believe in supporting our players and letting the due legal process take its course"?


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## Paul_Stewart (Jan 9, 2015)

CMAC said:



			Question time last night had some good debate and some interesting points put across well from the panel and audiences. It certainly would make you think no matter what side of the argument you fell on initially.
		
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So I take it Russell Brand or Joey Barton weren't invited this week?


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## Fyldewhite (Jan 9, 2015)

Assuming his guilt....and that is the legal position at present, I think most would agree that criminals should be given a second chance. I'm also sure that everyone would agree that simply resuming where you left off isn't acceptable in many circumstances (sex offender working with children, fraudster working in finance etc). So where should football stand in all this?  There are numerous examples where convicted criminals have resumed a career in football albeit sometimes with restrictions so the precedence has already been set and there are theoretically no obstacles to resuming his career.

That said there is a massive difference between resuming his career and just carrying on where he left off. All the publicity is because he is trying to do the latter. If he had set his sights lower at a club where the potential benefit of having a championship standard player outweighs the potential loss of some minor sponsorship by the local car dealer or whatever all this would have blown over in a few days and even then probably only in the local news. Overall, yes, like anyone he deserves a second chance but not the chance he's trying to carve out.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Assuming his guilt....and that is the legal position at present, I think most would agree that criminals should be given a second chance. I'm also sure that everyone would agree that simply resuming where you left off isn't acceptable in many circumstances (sex offender working with children, fraudster working in finance etc). So where should football stand in all this?  There are numerous examples where convicted criminals have resumed a career in football albeit sometimes with restrictions so the precedence has already been set and there are theoretically no obstacles to resuming his career.

That said there is a massive difference between resuming his career and just carrying on where he left off. All the publicity is because he is trying to do the latter. If he had set his sights lower at a club where the potential benefit of having a championship standard player outweighs the potential loss of some minor sponsorship by the local car dealer or whatever all this would have blown over in a few days and even then probably only in the local news. Overall, yes, like anyone he deserves a second chance but not the chance he's trying to carve out.
		
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Why should he go lower though? A surgeon gets a treated for drink driving. Serves his time and then comes back as a hospital porter?

These clubs only have morales when it suits them. If he was a world star and did it. Big clubs would still take him back.

Gazza was a drunk and an abusive husband but how badly did people think of him at the time?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Why should he go lower though? A surgeon gets a treated for drink driving. Serves his time and then comes back as a hospital porter?

These clubs only have morales when it suits them. If he was a world star and did it. Big clubs would still take him back.

Gazza was a drunk and an abusive husband but how badly did people think of him at the time?
		
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Surely it's his job that puts him in the situation, I'm sure Gary Glitter was no danger stood on the stage singing(doing his job), but it's his job that gives opportunity, so letting him play football will turn him into a role model ?, maybe he should've been that before this happened.
(I am not comparing Evans to Glitter, purely using those as an argument against people returning to there "job")


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

im not sure I've said anywhere that he should be a role model. In fact elsewhere ive argued that footballers shouldn't be expected to be. Just because if their wealth. There are lots of famous people that set bad examples and continue to work. my nephews love iron mans. Should they follow Robert Downey jnr example?

His job didn't help him. He went to town, and took adamant age of a women. If him being famous has played a part then I would argue it rules out rape. Surely if she knew who he was and went back with him, willingly to a hotel she must of had an idea of what his intentions were. Had anytime ever invited a girl back to their hotel just to talk?


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 9, 2015)

There are plenty of professions where a convicted rapist would not be able to continue their career: doctor, teacher, police officer to name just three. 

At the moment Evans is a convicted rapist. 

Would a well known actor convicted of rape ever work as an actor again?


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			im not sure I've said anywhere that he should be a role model. In fact elsewhere ive argued that footballers shouldn't be expected to be. Just because if their wealth. There are lots of famous people that set bad examples and continue to work. my nephews love iron mans. Should they follow Robert Downey jnr example?

His job didn't help him. He went to town, and took adamant age of a women. If him being famous has played a part then I would argue it rules out rape. Surely if she knew who he was and went back with him, willingly to a hotel she must of had an idea of what his intentions were. Had anytime ever invited a girl back to their hotel just to talk?
		
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Evans didn't invite anyone to a hotel room, his mate found the girl, took her to a hotel room booked and paid for by Evans. Evans then received a text along the lines of "I've got a girl, are you coming over?" - Evans intentions were pretty clear, the girl can't have known he was coming let alone who he was.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Tarkus1212 said:



			There are plenty of professions where a convicted rapist would not be able to continue their career: doctor, teacher, police officer to name just three. 

At the moment Evans is a convicted rapist. 

Would a well known actor convicted of rape ever work as an actor again?
		
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But those professions don't rule or rapists on some morale grounds? Or as punishment saying they're not allowed to earn great wealth. They do is a children are regularly in the environment. As a footballer he isn't expected to associate with drunken women (his apparent target) on a daily basis.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			im not sure I've said anywhere that he should be a role model. In fact elsewhere ive argued that footballers shouldn't be expected to be. Just because if their wealth. There are lots of famous people that set bad examples and continue to work. my nephews love iron mans. Should they follow Robert Downey jnr example?

His job didn't help him. He went to town, and took adamant age of a women. If him being famous has played a part then I would argue it rules out rape. Surely if she knew who he was and went back with him, willingly to a hotel she must of had an idea of what his intentions were. Had anytime ever invited a girl back to their hotel just to talk?
		
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It's the lifestyle that comes with his job, bonus for the majority!
Entry into exclusive nightclubs, VIP treatment.....excess alcohol etc, who know's what this could lead to?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Evans didn't invite anyone to a hotel room, his mate found the girl, took her to a hotel room booked and paid for by Evans. Evans then received a text along the lines of "I've got a girl, are you coming over?" - Evans intentions were pretty clear, the girl can't have known he was coming let alone who he was.
		
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That is all conjecture. She could just as easily have only gone back with the mate on the promise of meeting a footballer. She has admitted she has no recitation of any of it. 
I'm not defending his actions. But I've not seen anywhere whether he was at any point in her company before the incident or not? But apparently they were all out together so id imagine he'd have seen her that night already.


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## ger147 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			But those professions don't rule or rapists on some morale grounds? Or as punishment saying they're not allowed to earn great wealth. They do is a children are regularly in the environment. As a footballer he isn't expected to associate with drunken women (his apparent target) on a daily basis.
		
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I wouldn't be able to continue my career as an IT contractor working in all the well known high street banks if I was convicted of rape. I've known people being knocked back due to driving convictions never mind something as serious as rape.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			It's the lifestyle that comes with his job, bonus for the majority!
Entry into exclusive nightclubs, VIP treatment.....excess alcohol etc, who know's what this could lead to?
		
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Excess alcohol only goes to the rich and famous? Do me a favour?!

Apparently they picked her up in a pizza shop! Hardly exclusive. A lot of these clubs have wag wannabes door to door. Looking to sell a story or catch a man. I'm not saying she was one or in any way deserved anything. But If he really is this rapist monster then I'd imagine he could strike again without the need for money.


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			That is all conjecture. She could just as easily have only gone back with the mate on the promise of meeting a footballer. She has admitted she has no recitation of any of it. 
I'm not defending his actions. But I've not seen anywhere whether he was at any point in her company before the incident or not? But apparently they were all out together so id imagine he'd have seen her that night already.
		
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No conjecture - it's all outlined here:

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

This transcript summary is worth a read, nowhere does anyone claim that the girl met Evans or his mate earlier in the night.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

ger147 said:



			I wouldn't be able to continue my career as an IT contractor working in all the well known high street banks if I was convicted of rape. I've known people being knocked back due to driving convictions never mind something as serious as rape.
		
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I'd imagine in your job you'd need to be able to visit multiple places so not being able to drive could be a reason do be rejected. I'm not trying to belittle his act or support him. But I think it's down to a business to decide who they employ. If I was a conference side of snap him up as he'd probaly get 30+ goals a season and that would keep a club afloat and keep people in work. 

Unless a law is passed stating career paths that must follow convictions then I don't see anything changing.


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			I'd imagine in your job you'd need to be able to visit multiple places so not being able to drive could be a reason do be rejected. I'm not trying to belittle his act or support him. But I think it's down to a business to decide who they employ. If I was a conference side of snap him up as he'd probaly get 30+ goals a season and that would keep a club afloat and keep people in work. 

Unless a law is passed stating career paths that must follow convictions then I don't see anything changing.
		
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Realistically if he wants to carry on playing football it won't be with a team in the top two of three divisions. No club can afford to lose sponsors which is likely to happen whichever club tries to sign him. He may be better off waiting until his appeal is heard, if he wins that then he can go to whoever wants him.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Tarkus1212 said:



			No conjecture - it's all outlined here:

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

This transcript summary is worth a read, nowhere does anyone claim that the girl met Evans or his mate earlier in the night.
		
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Ok, so it appears they were obviously looking for a drunk girl to take advantage. That doesn't imo constitute rape. She also said you aren't going to leave me are you? That appears to me that she knew others would be coming along? Now whether she knew what would happen is all about opinions. But imo she's gone to the hotel knowing the two of them would have sex and knew of the text. As she knew someone else would be there. I can't imagine in her state she'd have been to bothered if he was just going to leave her there to sleep?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Realistically if he wants to carry on playing football it won't be with a team in the top two of three divisions. No club can afford to lose sponsors which is likely to happen whichever club tries to sign him. He may be better off waiting until his appeal is heard, if he wins that then he can go to whoever wants him.
		
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I agree. I also think if he'd shown some sort of remorse. I know he feels innocent. By he's at least taken advantage of a drunk and cheated on his partner. He may not have looked so bad. I think he's been poorly advised on the whole situation.


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok, so it appears they were obviously looking for a drunk girl to take advantage. That doesn't imo constitute rape. She also said you aren't going to leave me are you? That appears to me that she knew others would be coming along? Now whether she knew what would happen is all about opinions. But imo she's gone to the hotel knowing the two of them would have sex and knew of the text. As she knew someone else would be there. I can't imagine in her state she'd have been to bothered if he was just going to leave her there to sleep?
		
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What is bamboozling is if she cannot remember anything them why is one man innocent and one guilty?


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 9, 2015)

She thinks they're both guilty. I agree though it is quite odd that the jury came to that conclusion, it does make me think that his appeal may be successful.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			What is bamboozling is if she cannot remember anything them why is one man innocent and one guilty?
		
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Read that link, explains it quite clearly.

The circumstances by which each man had sex with her were significantly different.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			What is bamboozling is if she cannot remember anything them why is one man innocent and one guilty?
		
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I can only imagine it's because the jury decided that she went to the hotel with him and that indicates her being wiling. But having just read it all courtesy of the link provided me. It does look like a lass who's got wasted and made a big mistake and regretted it the next day. 

Are they lowlife for preying on a girl that smashed. Yes they sure are. Are they rapists, I'm not so sure.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Read that link, explains it quite clearly.

The circumstances by which each man had sex with her were significantly different.
		
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But she also appears to know someone else is coming. And merely asked not to be left alone. Not for it not to happen. Yes she has been used as a price of meat and that's low. But I'm not sure it's what I call rape. 
I'd not be surprised if it's iverturned eventually.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			But she also appears to know someone else is coming. And merely asked not to be left alone. Not for it not to happen. Yes she has been used as a price of meat and that's low. But I'm not sure it's what I call rape. 
I'd not be surprised if it's iverturned eventually.
		
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That's a big leap that you're making from one comment, I don't understand how you reach that conclusion.


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## ger147 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			I'd imagine in your job you'd need to be able to visit multiple places so not being able to drive could be a reason do be rejected. I'm not trying to belittle his act or support him. But I think it's down to a business to decide who they employ. If I was a conference side of snap him up as he'd probaly get 30+ goals a season and that would keep a club afloat and keep people in work. 

Unless a law is passed stating career paths that must follow convictions then I don't see anything changing.
		
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Nope, being able to drive has never been a requirement for any of my jobs. But a conviction rules out being taken on even if you don't lose your licence or after you've got it back but conviction shows up on your CRB check.


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok, so it appears they were obviously looking for a drunk girl to take advantage. That doesn't imo constitute rape. She also said you aren't going to leave me are you? That appears to me that she knew others would be coming along? Now whether she knew what would happen is all about opinions. But imo she's gone to the hotel knowing the two of them would have sex and knew of the text. As she knew someone else would be there. I can't imagine in her state she'd have been to bothered if he was just going to leave her there to sleep?
		
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Taking advantage of someone who might say no if she were sober *IS* rape. She may also have known others were coming *BUT* she may have thought it was for a drinking session. And her state is why the guys should have behaved more responsibly and not taken advantage. The crucial bit is to "to take".


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			It does look like a lass who's got wasted and made a big mistake and regretted it the next day.
		
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I agree but don't think she regretted it I'm sure I read it was the police that pressed charges and not her, she just wanted her lost phone back (or something like that) but the police said she was raped as she couldn't recount what had happened. I just wonder how anyone is supposed to know what someone is/isn't going to remeber in the morning.

The mob mindedness about this is totally pathetic, the man should be able to get on with his life after doing his sentence as per the law - as should the 'victim'. He's a footballernot a teacher/paedo/judge or whatever. Didn't our 'role model' David Beckham spend some time as an adulterer? We love David Beckham!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			im not sure I've said anywhere that he should be a role model. In fact elsewhere ive argued that footballers shouldn't be expected to be. Just because if their wealth. There are lots of famous people that set bad examples and continue to work. my nephews love iron mans. Should they follow Robert Downey jnr example?

His job didn't help him. He went to town, and took adamant age of a women*. If him being famous has played a part then I would argue it rules out rape. Surely if she knew who he was and went back with him, willingly to a hotel she must of had an idea of what his intentions were. Had anytime ever invited a girl back to their hotel just to talk?*

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So you are saying that if a woman goes back to her room with someone 'famous' and then for whatever reason does not concent to sex, but the man has sex with her without consent, then it is not rape?   So effectively the act of going to a room with a famous person is consent in your world?   And the woman has no right to say no at any stage?

Rape is not just committed by strangers pouncing on women in darkly lit parks.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

She asked for him not to leave. In her apparent state, I doubt very much she was able to think to long term and was asking him to stay all night and cuddle, or not to simply tuck her in and leave her. 

I actually think having read it all, it appears more likely that she was taking advantage of and regretted it than forfully raped. Surely If she was raped then his mate should be charged also as he was at least an accomplice?


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you are saying that if a woman goes back to her room with someone 'famous' and then for whatever reason does not concent to sex, but the man has sex with her without consent, then it is not rape?
		
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That would be rape... but no one is going to be able to prove it either way. She didn't feel/think she had been raped  (so I gather - see above) but they were guilty in the eyes of the law. He's been treated as if he DID jump out of some darkly lit place, I've read a lot of web comments about rape being a violent crime and him being tarred with that brush by the mob who have taken little time to read ANYTHING about the case.

Incedentally, in your scenario, how would she know that she hadn't consented?


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

I fully agree she was taken advantage of and that's not right, I believe she was aware of what she was involving herself in. Both suspects fully co-operated anand were truthfully of what happened, the victim is the only person who can answer if she was 100% truthful.

As for Evans and his mate, scumbags? Definitely. Rapists? I have many doubts


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Taking advantage of someone who might say no if she were sober *IS* rape. She may also have known others were coming *BUT* she may have thought it was for a drinking session. And her state is why the guys should have behaved more responsibly and not taken advantage. The crucial bit is to "to take".
		
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Surely with drunken one night stands one person is usually slightly worse for wear than the other? So surely all these cases are rape?

What is to say she would have sold no ifs he was sober though? There's nithing to suggest she would have? She might be an angel, she might not be?

Would she really have been bothered about drinking with anyone else imparticular? 

I think what they did was out of line. But I think it's come from her shame and embarrassment the following morning.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			As for Evans and his mate, scumbags? Definitely. Rapists? I have many doubts
		
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I don't see why they are even scumbags, is it bad to want a 3some with someone after leaving the pub? I'd be up for it 

Damn!! I'm a scumbag  I knew it


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you are saying that if a woman goes back to her room with someone 'famous' and then for whatever reason does not concent to sex, but the man has sex with her without consent, then it is not rape?   So effectively the act of going to a room with a famous person is consent in your world?   And the woman has no right to say no at any stage?

Rape is not just committed by strangers pouncing on women in darkly lit parks.
		
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I didn't mean that AT ALL. I simply meant that if she'd realised who he was. In her state and chose to go back and knew someone else was coming she must have known the implications. She also said she had no recollection of it. And the hotel worker said he heard noises that appeared to show her enjoying herself. So for me she hadn't rejected him or had second thoughts. She simply got smashed. Made a bad choice and felt ashamed.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			I think what they did was out of line. But I think it's come from her shame and embarrassment the following morning.
		
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From Ched Evans website...




			The police arrested both Ched and Clayton at the station, they acknowledged that the only evidence that sexual activity had taken place was their admission. *There was no complaint of rape, no forensic evidence, no injury and no complaint.*

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From the police report...




			The complainant said that her next memory was waking up in the hotel room at about 11.30am. She realised that she was alone. She was naked and had urinated in the bed. She had a headache and was confused. *She reported the matter to the police.*

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*Someone* isn't telling the story correctly


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Excess alcohol only goes to the rich and famous? Do me a favour?!

Apparently they picked her up in a pizza shop! Hardly exclusive. A lot of these clubs have wag wannabes door to door. Looking to sell a story or catch a man. I'm not saying she was one or in any way deserved anything. But If he really is this rapist monster then I'd imagine he could strike again without the need for money.
		
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My post is in context to future behaviour


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			My post is in context to future behaviour
		
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I still don't see how it makes him more likely to strike again?

it just shows reasons for people to be jealous of his career path continuing. I'd also argue that as a league on player he won't be in those circles either. The original case was in Rhyl, not KNightsbridge.


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## MadAdey (Jan 9, 2015)

To make something clear before this post, I do not condone what they did, they took advantage of someone who was hammered and not really in a fit state to make sensible choices. I find rape to be possibly the most disgusting crimes around.

IMO being drunk and having unforced sex with someone should not be deemed as rape. Did she say yes, or did she say no. From what I read she can't really remember but is sure she did not want sex with Evans. Did Evans get her to consent, from what I read no. But on the other hand she did not tell him no. 

So Evans has been convicted in my eyes because he took advantage of a girl that was drunk and not in any fit state to make sound decisions. 

But in the eyes of the law is being drunk a sound excuse? If I got into a car, drunk, crashed into a kids playground and killed 10 of them I would be getting hung, drawn and quartered. Even though I was not in a fit state because of my level of intoxication to make a sound decision, it was my choice to get drunk in the first place which led to my subsequent actions. If I was a witness to a crime, but I was too drunk to really remember what happened, the defence would get my testimony thrown out in an instant. But in the case of a woman accusing a man of rape, even though she was too smashed to consent, he can be found guilty even though there are no other witnesses.


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			I didn't mean that AT ALL. I simply meant that if she'd realised who he was. In her state and chose to go back and knew someone else was coming she must have known the implications. She also said she had no recollection of it. And the hotel worker said he heard noises that appeared to show her enjoying herself. So for me she hadn't rejected him or had second thoughts. She simply got smashed. Made a bad choice and felt ashamed.
		
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She knew exactly who Ched Evans was, it's a.cery small community


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			She knew exactly who Ched Evans was, it's a.cery small community
		
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Im sure she did. The point I was poorly trying to make was that I believe she knew of the situation she was getting into, and if coherent enough to make that call she'd be coherent enough to remember. So either she remembers and is lying. Or she was so hammered that who he was had no relevance therefor his fame played no part and that as she can't confirm saying yes or no, I don't see there being enough proof to show it as rape. Madadeys point above about responsibilities when drunk work for me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Im sure she did. The point I was poorly trying to make was that I believe she knew of the situation she was getting into, and if coherent enough to make that call she'd be coherent enough to remember. So either she remembers and is lying. Or she was so hammered that who he was had no relevance therefor his fame played no part and that as she can't confirm saying yes or no, I don't see there being enough proof to show it as rape. Madadeys point above about responsibilities when drunk work for me.
		
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So if she was iup for it and knew who Ched Evans was(as I'm sure all 19yr old girls would) why did just him and not the other 2 proffessional footballers with him go in the room and why did the other two who then video'd it on there mobiles from outside the room, keep it to help there mate rather than delete it.
She may of been seen as a willing participant.
As someone previously posted only two people know the truth.
The OP asked the question should they be given a second chance. IMO certain crimes no, yes we have innocent men proven guilty, but unless they prove there innocence and are allowed to rebuild there lives, no


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			So if she was iup for it and knew who Ched Evans was(as I'm sure all 19yr old girls would) why did just him and not the other 2 proffessional footballers with him go in the room and why did the other two who then video'd it on there mobiles from outside the room, keep it to help there mate rather than delete it.
She may of been seen as a willing participant.
As someone previously posted only two people know the truth.
The OP asked the question should they be given a second chance. IMO certain crimes no, yes we have innocent men proven guilty, but unless they prove there innocence and are allowed to rebuild there lives, no
		
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Ok, that's a fair point. Back to the op then. Does that mean they should once released from prison simply sign in and live off benefits? Because I still can't see any reason other than jealousy of his wealth why he should be able to do a different job than the one he's accomplished at?


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok, that's a fair point. Back to the op then. Does that mean they should once released from prison simply sign in and live off benefits? Because I still can't see any reason other than jealousy of his wealth why he should be able to do a different job than the one he's accomplished at?
		
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Good point, let him back into football and contribute to tax coffers or he signs on as a burden to the tax payer


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok, that's a fair point. Back to the op then. Does that mean they should once released from prison simply sign in and live off benefits? Because I still can't see any reason other than jealousy of his wealth why he should be able to do a different job than the one he's accomplished at?
		
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Why can't he retrain, what would a teacher, policeman, soldier do? His current job is used as an argument by both sides, his profile is irrelevant to me.


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## c1973 (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm not fully aware of the details of the case, but would it be correct to assume that all parties involved were drunk/very drunk and not just the female?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

If a teacher in an all girls school is convicted of an offence against girls are you happy for him to be given a second chance with a job at an all boys school?


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			If a teacher in an all girls school is convicted of an offence against girls are you happy for him to be given a second chance with a job at an all boys school?
		
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Ridiculous comparison. 

Teachers of any school are in a position of trust. Footballers aren't.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Taking the guilt/innocence arguments out of it, since we'll never reach a consensus on that, and focussing only on the "second chances" theme, I think Evans has been very badly advised.

If he came out of prison full of contrition, made it clear what he did was unacceptable (rape or not) and advised young men not to make the same mistakes (for want of a better word) that he did, he could have taken a big first step in earning a second chance. His approach has only hardened public opinion against him. Effectively he's put all his eggs in one basket - clearing his name - and unless there are facts that are not in the public domain (Val  ) I just can't see that happening.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Why can't he retrain, what would a teacher, policeman, soldier do? His current job is used as an argument by both sides, his profile is irrelevant to me.
		
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My question is why? 
The professions you name would in theory be in contact with their likely victims. He won't. 
Is there a default job you'd like to offer up as acceptable that all rapists should do once out of prison? 

If you commit a crime that is work related you should be banned from that role if not I don't see the argument. Fraud rules on bank jobs etc, sex offences working with kids etc. but what footballer banned from football. If he was a sunday league player can he no longer turn out on a Sunday?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Taking the guilt/innocence arguments out of it, since we'll never reach a consensus on that, and focussing only on the "second chances" theme, I think Evans has been very badly advised.

If he came out of prison full of contrition, made it clear what he did was unacceptable (rape or not) and advised young men not to make the same mistakes (for want of a better word) that he did, he could have taken a big first step in earning a second chance. His approach has only hardened public opinion against him. Effectively he's put all his eggs in one basket - clearing his name - and unless there are facts that are not in the public domain (Val  ) I just can't see that happening.
		
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I agree with this, the apology he has offered now is far too late. 
I do also think some people in the media are using this more for attention of themselves than the real issues.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Ridiculous comparison. 

Teachers of any school are in a position of trust. Footballers aren't.
		
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Why is it ridiculous? If they are no threat to boys whats the difference?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			My question is why? 
The professions you name would in theory be in contact with their likely victims. He won't. 
Is there a default job you'd like to offer up as acceptable that all rapists should do once out of prison? 

If you commit a crime that is work related you should be banned from that role if not I don't see the argument. Fraud rules on bank jobs etc, sex offences working with kids etc. but what footballer banned from football. If he was a sunday league player can he no longer turn out on a Sunday?
		
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How would some of these people likely come into contact, the argument with Evans is not his footballing ability but the lifestyle and opportunities it brings.


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is it ridiculous? If they are no threat to boys whats the difference?
		
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Do you really not know what the difference is or are you just trying to flog a point?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Do you not know what the difference is or are you just trying to flog a point?
		
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Not flogging a point just see peado's and rapists as the same thing and should be treated the same, are you really saying professional footballers can guarantee not being in situations with young females, he's only in the public eye for 2 x 90 minutes a week!


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2015)

Is there an intoxication level that, once passed, means you are deemed unable to make a rational decision?
There seems to be a lot of assumption that this girl was incapable of making that decision.
She doesn't know, she has little or no recollection of events after a certain time.

From where I sit there seems to be "reasonable doubt" - having said that, a lot of people get away with murder due to that phrase.

2nd chance - once his parole term is finished or he clears his name he should be allowed to resume his career in my opinion.
But not until he's "free" - the punishment has to continue until then.
Although, in that scenario, how do you rehabilitate "Lifer's"..?
They come out are 10, 15 or whatever years but are still on licence until Judgement Day.
These people have to do something otherwise they end up living off the State so you may as well keep them inside.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

How does his money in anyway make him more likely to see a 19 year old in a town centre. Or book a premier inn. I'm pretty sure most of us could foot the bill for what his Victim drank?

He could do any other job and still go in pubs and bars. Ill ask again, what low paying job should all rapists do so as not to be envied by others?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Not flogging a point just see peado's and rapists as the same thing and should be treated the same, are you really saying professional footballers can guarantee not being in situations with young females, he's only in the public eye for 2 x 90 minutes a week!
		
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Same point remains, of course he'd be further vilified. But if he was a paedo, his job doesn't make him more likely to be around Young kids. 

He wouldn't be in the public eye at all if he was say a builder (no offence intended to anyone) so would i theory find it easy with nobody watching him?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			How does his money in anyway make him more likely to see a 19 year old in a town centre. Or book a premier inn. I'm pretty sure most of us could foot the bill for what his Victim drank?

He could do any other job and still go in pubs and bars. Ill ask again, what low paying job should all rapists do so as not to be envied by others?
		
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But your point is just as apt for all jobs, but yet others have to do it,


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			How does his money in anyway make him more likely to see a 19 year old in a town centre. Or book a premier inn. I'm pretty sure most of us could foot the bill for what his Victim drank?

He could do any other job and still go in pubs and bars. Ill ask again, what low paying job should all rapists do so as not to be envied by others?
		
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I appreciate that you are following a tangent started by someone else, but It should be stated that his current situation has absolutely nothing to do with who he comes into contact with. He is a PR nightmare for anyone who tries to give him a contract. Whoever it is will lose sponsorship by the bucketload.. 

It's about money and nothing else. I'm certain that if he was World Class, he'd already be playing again by now. His problem now is that he is employed in a sport that is 100% ruled by money. It was before he was convicted, and he can't really complain that it hasn't changed whilst he's been inside... He is guilty of stupidity as well as rape, and I've no real sympathy for him at all..


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Not flogging a point just see peado's and rapists as the same thing and should be treated the same, are you really saying professional footballers can guarantee not being in situations with young females, he's only in the public eye for 2 x 90 minutes a week!
		
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No idea what you're talking about or how it is relevant.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But your point is just as apt for all jobs, but yet others have to do it,
		
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A teacher and a police officer have a duty of care and responsibility in their jobs. A footballer quite simply doesn't. People may want them to be role models but they're under no obligation to be. So they've not abused their roles. 

You may belive he's abused his afforded lifestyle, but him being around young women wouldn't change whatever job he did. But a police officer or teacher would still be around vulnerable people of they carried their careers on.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I appreciate that you are following a tangent started by someone else, but It should be stated that his current situation has absolutely nothing to do with who he comes into contact with. He is a PR nightmare for anyone who tries to give him a contract. Whoever it is will lose sponsorship by the bucketload.. 

It's about money and nothing else. I'm certain that if he was World Class, he'd already be playing again by now. His problem now is that he is employed in a sport that is 100% ruled by money. It was before he was convicted, and he can't really complain that it hasn't changed whilst he's been inside... He is guilty of stupidity as well as rape, and I've no real sympathy for him at all..
		
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I actually share the same thoughts as yourself. And said as much earlier. If it was ronaldo or messi they'd be straight back to work. He handle the situation poorly after his release and now doesn't bring enough to the table. I've no problem withy the football clubs deciding against employing him. I just think that some people are naive if they think him not getting a chance had anythig to do with morals. It's business simple as.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

jp5 said:



			No idea what you're talking about or how it is relevant.
		
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Suggest you read the OP, it's about second chances and whether he should be given one, we've established certain jobs you don't by the nature of the job, 
My point is, saying he plays football has nothing to do with the offence and he should be allowed to play again is blinkered, yes the 90 minutes is free of females on the pitch, but the trappings/offers and lifestyle it brings can.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			A teacher and a police officer have a duty of care and responsibility in their jobs. A footballer quite simply doesn't. People may want them to be role models but they're under no obligation to be. So they've not abused their roles. 

You may belive he's abused his afforded lifestyle, but him being around young women wouldn't change whatever job he did. But a police officer or teacher would still be around vulnerable people of they carried their careers on.
		
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What about the young kids just getting into football and see this great guy scoring goals, I'm positive he's not the bloke I want my son looking up to.


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Suggest you read the OP, it's about second chances and whether he should be given one, we've established certain jobs you don't by the nature of the job, 
My point is, saying he plays football has nothing to do with the offence and he should be allowed to play again is blinkered, yes the 90 minutes is free of females on the pitch, but the trappings/offers and lifestyle it brings can.
		
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I understand the debate, just not your point about "paedo's and rapists [being] the same" and professional footballers being around young females.

So you're saying that Mr Evans should never have any contact with females given what he has been convicted for?


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			What about the young kids just getting into football and see this great guy scoring goals, I'm positive he's not the bloke I want my son looking up to.
		
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Bring up your son to look up to true heroes then - the nurses that are fighting Ebola, the police forces that are keeping us safe, the scientists that are advancing human knowledge.

Not some bloke that kicks a ball about for a living.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			I actually share the same thoughts as yourself. And said as much earlier. If it was ronaldo or messi they'd be straight back to work. He handle the situation poorly after his release and now doesn't bring enough to the table. I've no problem withy the football clubs deciding against employing him. I just think that some people are naive if they think him not getting a chance had anythig to do with morals. It's business simple as.
		
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Yep, thats my take on it..

FWIW, I would be very unhappy if my Club took him on. I would be forced to make a choice regarding whether I took my kids to the game. BUT, bearing in mind that most high profile clubs could lose several thousand fans without too much impact on finances, then I doubt very much that they would even consider that..


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## MadAdey (Jan 9, 2015)

I think this situation like others before just proves that like homicide, it should be broken down into subcategories. You have murder, then you have manslaughter that is then broken down even further depending on the circumstances

The problem with rape, it is one phrase covering a multitude of different scenarios. If like Evans you did something stupid and took advantage of a drunken girl, or dragged one off the street into an alleyway, ripped off her clothes and physically assaulted her while she kicked and screamed. You are going to charged with the same offence and be looked at by society the same.

With rape, like murder, the intent should be taken into account and wether it was a pre meditated attack or not. Evans to me never had the intention of raping her, he thought he was joining in a but if adult fun and from what I have read about it there was no signs of physical abuse showing that he forced her. Does that justify what he did, no. But to tar him with the same brush as a sexual predator that drags women off the street and forces them to have sex is wrong IMO.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			What about the young kids just getting into football and see this great guy scoring goals, I'm positive he's not the bloke I want my son looking up to.
		
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Do you want them looking up to Rooney, Rio or terry, Tiger, Snoop Dogg?

I'd like to think my Childrens morales with relate more to nine than someone they see play football or act or sing.....?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

jp5 said:



			I understand the debate, just not your point about "paedo's and rapists [being] the same" and professional footballers being around young females.

So you're saying that Mr Evans should never have any contact with females given what he has been convicted for?
		
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Like I've stated if he wins his appeal good luck to him and he should be given the chance to get on with his career, currently he is a convicted Rapist on the sex offenders register and until his appeals are over one way or another IMO he should not be allowed to play Proffessional football


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Yep, thats my take on it..

FWIW, I would be very unhappy if my Club took him on. I would be forced to make a choice regarding whether I took my kids to the game. BUT, bearing in mind that most high profile clubs could lose several thousand fans without too much impact on finances, then I doubt very much that they would even consider that..
		
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As he's a free agent I'd not be surprised if a club offered him a short term deal if a main striker got injured towards the end of the season. 

Promotion to the Prem is probably worth more than any championships sides sponsor? 

If free agents can be signed that late?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Bring up your son to look up to true heroes then - the nurses that are fighting Ebola, the police forces that are keeping us safe, the scientists that are advancing human knowledge.

Not some bloke that kicks a ball about for a living.
		
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But in the real world we do hope we give our children the right upbringing, but I would think no matter how good a person you are, you had sportsman as heroes as a kid.
As I'm still serving in the Army I'm fully aware of what real heroes are and what sacrifice is.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2015)

Anyway folks, it's nice to have a good debate and respect each others opinions.
We have our own moral compass and on somethings we won't agree.
I'm out of this thread and looking forward to putting faces to names on the course this season.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			I didn't mean that AT ALL. I simply meant that if she'd realised who he was. In her state and chose to go back and knew someone else was coming she must have known the implications. She also said she had no recollection of it. And the hotel worker said he heard noises that appeared to show her enjoying herself. So for me she hadn't rejected him or had second thoughts. She simply got smashed. Made a bad choice and felt ashamed.
		
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Well unfortunately for you the jury in what is commonly regarded as one of the best and fairest legal systems in the world disagreed with you.  You are more than free to keep making excuses and mitigating circumstances about what happened due to whatever reason. But as it stands I personally would tend to believe the juries decision rather than biased innuendo and supposition and find it a bit offensive that we are virtually at the stage where excuses are being made for his behaviour (he was famous, he was targeted, she had had a drink so was not able to make a decision, it's not the nasty kind of rape etc etc). 

And if any retrial/appeal reverses that decision than I am more than happy to give him a second chance.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well unfortunately for you the jury in what is commonly regarded as one of the best and fairest legal systems in the world disagreed with you.  You are more than free to keep making excuses and mitigating circumstances about what happened due to whatever reason. But as it stands I personally would tend to believe the juries decision rather than biased innuendo and supposition and find it a bit offensive that we are virtually at the stage where excuses are being made for his behaviour (he was famous, he was targeted, she had had a drink so was not able to make a decision, it's not the nasty kind of rape etc etc). 

And if any retrial/appeal reverses that decision than I am more than happy to give him a second chance.
		
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Thanks buts the outcome has no bearing on my life so I'll not lose any sleep either way. I'm not biased at all and have stated many times I think what he did was wrong. But like others rape in my mind is a violent assault. Not something so traumatic she had no recollection of it. As well as experts saying that they were surprised but that fact. I trust our system. I simply said it didn't look clear cut. And from those facts I read in the report i woulbt have found him guilty if in the jury.


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## USER1999 (Jan 9, 2015)

It doesn't matter what I think about giving him a second chance. I won't ever be in a position to employ him.
However, those that are, are not doing so. It's their choice. No one has to offer him a job, so if they don't, they don't. It's a free market.

If you can't get work in your chosen field, you have to do something different. It's what the rest of us have to do.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Thanks buts the outcome has no bearing on my life so I'll not lose any sleep either way. I'm not biased at all and have stated many times I think what he did was wrong. *But like others rape in my mind is a violent assault*. Not something so traumatic she had no recollection of it. As well as experts saying that they were surprised but that fact. I trust our system. I simply said it didn't look clear cut. And from those facts I read in the report i woulbt have found him guilty if in the jury.
		
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Well I'd suggest you and others on this thread find out what the definition of rape is. The OED states it is.  

unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus,or mouth of another person, with or without force ,by a sex organ, other body part,or foreign object,without the consent of the victim

And whilst the word force is mentioned, it also states rape can be committed without force.  And the words *consent* and *unlawful *are probably more relevant. Saying it not really/proper rape unless it is not violent is both naive and insulting.  IMHO.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			But like others rape in my mind is a violent assault.
		
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I read a comment piece this week that stated that Ched Evans doesn't know what rape is. Neither, it appears, do you. It doesn't have to be a violent assault.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			What about the young kids just getting into football and see this great guy scoring goals, I'm positive he's not the bloke I want my son looking up to.
		
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So you'd not let your kids watch David Beckham as he is an adulterer?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I'd suggest you and others on this thread find out what the definition of rape is. The OED states it is.  

unlawfulsexualintercourseoranyothersexualpenetrationofthe vagina,anus,ormouthofanotherperson,withorwithoutforce,bya sexorgan,otherbodypart,orforeignobject,withouttheconsentof thevictim

And whilst the word force is mentioned, it also states rape can be committed without force.  And the words *consent* and *unlawful *are probably more relevant in this case. Saying it not really/proper rape unless it is not violent is both naive and insulting.  IMHO.
		
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Thats fair enough. But by her OWN admission she hasnt said she didn't give consent. Unfortunately I believe this case was judged more on opinion than fact. I respect the sentence. But it's innocent until proven guilty, not innocent until found guilty. 

Either way, he's served his time. Remorse or not, which I think he should have shown. He's now out, either criminals are allowed back into society or they're not.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			IMO being drunk and having unforced sex with someone should not be deemed as rape. Did she say yes, or did she say no. From what I read she can't really remember but is sure she did not want sex with Evans. Did Evans get her to consent, from what I read no. But on the other hand she did not tell him no. 

So Evans has been convicted in my eyes because he took advantage of a girl that was drunk and not in any fit state to make sound decisions. 

But in the eyes of the law is being drunk a sound excuse? If I got into a car, drunk, crashed into a kids playground and killed 10 of them I would be getting hung, drawn and quartered. Even though I was not in a fit state because of my level of intoxication to make a sound decision, it was my choice to get drunk in the first place which led to my subsequent actions. If I was a witness to a crime, but I was too drunk to really remember what happened, the defence would get my testimony thrown out in an instant. But in the case of a woman accusing a man of rape, even though she was too smashed to consent, he can be found guilty even though there are no other witnesses.
		
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Good post.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I read a comment piece this week that stated that Ched Evans doesn't know what rape is. Neither, it appears, do you. It doesn't have to be a violent assault.
		
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I didn't state that I what he did wasn't rape. Merely that it conjured other thoughts. But as has been highlighted. Rape is sex without consent. Something she herself admits she doeset know if she did or didn't give. You, me, the spider on the wall or the jurors also don't know that either.


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## MadAdey (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I read a comment piece this week that stated that Ched Evans doesn't know what rape is. Neither, it appears, do you. It doesn't have to be a violent assault.
		
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But as I stated in an earlier post, that is where the problem is IMO. Like homicide rape should be dealt with on different levels. If they did you might actually find more people being brought to justice and being found guilty of the lesser charge.

Not trying to get into who says it was and who says it wasn't. But if you took a jury of people from this forum that covers a wide demographic, you would not get a unanimous verdict on the charge, with the right people he may have gotten a majority decision on not guilty. But if there was a lesser charge that covered this situation I think he would be found guilty every time, no matter who you asked.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			But as I stated in an earlier post, that is where the problem is IMO. Like homicide rape should be dealt with on different levels. If they did you might actually find more people being brought to justice and being found guilty of the lesser charge.
		
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I disagree. The sentence should take the individual circumstances into account but for the crime itself, rape is rape.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I disagree. The sentence should take the individual circumstances into account but for the crime itself, rape is rape.
		
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Do you not feel that if there was a tier system then more convictions may be likely?


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Do you not feel that if there was a tier system then more convictions may be likely?
		
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I don't think the crime should be minimised. I don't want rapists getting off with a lesser charge because, for example, their victim chooses not to fight off a bigger, stronger attacker.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Do you not feel that if there was a tier system then more convictions may be likely?
		
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Not really as it will nearly always come down to the question of consent and whether it was given or not.  And no matter how many 'tiers' you have it will still not change.  

I find it morally very difficult to categorise levels of rape.  I am sure males could make a good argument for doing this, but as a female victim (and I know there is male rape but I am speaking in this case of male rape on females) I am not sure if the fact that you were drugged and raped or raped when you were drunk is much less of a offense.  From the victims point of view, no matter how the perpetrator may feel about it.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I disagree. The sentence should take the individual circumstances into account but for the crime itself, rape is rape.
		
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I don't agree with that.

IMO Rape is rape when consent is categorically and undeniably not given, even more so when it's at a time when 'sexual activity' is not present rather than when someone is rolling half drunk with their pizza  into a hotel room with someone from a night club. As someone pointed out earlier - if you can get off murder because there is reasonable doubt then THIS subject can fall into that category in this instance (IMO)


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I don't agree with that.

IMO Rape is rape when consent is categorically and undeniably not given, even more so when it's at a time when 'sexual activity' is not present rather than when someone is rolling half drunk with their pizza  into a hotel room with someone from a night club.
		
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From the rapist point of view possibly true (and to be clear I am not saying you are a rapist before we go down that alley) , from the victims I am not sure.


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## Foxholer (Jan 9, 2015)

JustOne said:



			So you'd not let your kids watch David Beckham as he is an adulterer? 

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Has that been proven/admitted?

Or are you merely repeating tabloid rumours?


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			From the rapist point of view possibly true (and to be clear I am not saying you are a rapist before we go down that alley) , from the victims I am not sure.
		
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Husband rolls in from the pub half drunk, rolls on the wife and she whispers 'not tonight dear' just as he penetrates... did he just rape her/sexually assault her?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really as it will nearly always come down to the question of consent and whether it was given or not.  And no matter how many 'tiers' you have it will still not change.  

I find it morally very difficult to categorise levels of rape.  I am sure males could make a good argument for doing this, but as a female victim (and I know there is male rape but I am speaking in this case of male rape on females) I am not sure if the fact that you were drugged and raped or raped when you were drunk is much less of a offense.  From the victims point of view, no matter how the perpetrator may feel about it.
		
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Well I genuinely apologise if my thoughts have caused offence. I suppose if consent is the deciding factor then maybe it wouldn't change much. But from the facts shown in this case I would have thought it wasn't a clear cut case. One getting off etc. maybe it would be easier to get a guilty conviction if proving the victim was at a certain level of drunk hence unable to consent.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Well I genuinely apologise if my thoughts have caused offence. I suppose if consent is the deciding factor then maybe it wouldn't change much. But from the facts shown in this case I would have thought it wasn't a clear cut case. One getting off etc. maybe it would be easier to get a guilty conviction if proving the victim was at a certain level of drunk hence unable to consent.
		
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Would be interesting to know if they breathalised her to establish exactly how drunk she might have been the night before (as drunk as she was claiming to be).


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Husband rolls in from the pub half drunk, rolls on the wife and she whispers 'not tonight dear' just as he penetrates... did he just rape her/sexually assault her?[/QU

More than enough time to hear no and stop.
		
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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 9, 2015)

what will be interesting is *IF* The Criminal Case Review Board quash his conviction, How much public hate will still be present.

I dont like this trial by media whether it be newspapers or twitter, it fuels fires and people choose what details to believe, and then it becomes "fact" in their eyes


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## Papas1982 (Jan 9, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Would be interesting to know if they breathalised her to establish exactly how drunk she might have been the night before (as drunk as she was claiming to be).
		
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The report said the tests they did showed she used drugs in the recent past and that the alcohol in her system would suggest that black outs unlikely. That doesn't mean it wasn't true on her part thiugh.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 9, 2015)

Have edited a couple of posts that were needlessly graphic

Can we watch what we post please

Thanks


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			what will be interesting is *IF* The Criminal Case Review Board quash his conviction, How much public hate will still be present.

I dont like this trial by media whether it be newspapers or twitter, it fuels fires and people choose what details to believe, and then it becomes "fact" in their eyes
		
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Thing is, Evans had his trial and was found guilty. It's the poor victim that's facing the trial by media, who has had to move and change her identity five times.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			what will be interesting is *IF* The Criminal Case Review Board quash his conviction
		
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Indeed. The backlash against the 'rape system' would be huge! More news for the tabloids and the Government spin doctors.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think the crime should be minimised. I don't want rapists getting off with a lesser charge because, for example, their victim chooses not to fight off a bigger, stronger attacker.
		
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So you think Ched Evans for example should get the same sentence as some one that drags a women/man down a dark alley kicking & screaming & rapes them?


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			So you think Ched Evans for example should get the same sentence as some one that drags a women/man down a dark alley kicking & screaming & rapes them?
		
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No, as I said in another post - the sentence should take the circumstances into account.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			No, as I said in another post - the sentence should take the circumstances into account.
		
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Have you thought for one minute that he could be innocent?


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Have you thought for one minute that he could be innocent?
		
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I'm pretty sure that as he was found guilty in court that'll suffice for most.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Have you thought for one minute that he could be innocent?
		
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No.


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I'm pretty sure that as he was found guilty in court that'll suffice for most.
		
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Shame that more people don't take the time to review the independent documentation of the case. I think they'd be surprised if they did.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Have you thought for one minute that he could be innocent?
		
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I think you'll find that prisons totally consist of people who claim to be innocent.  I am sure a small minority possibly are, but I'd prefer to use the verdict of the English legal system as my guide to innocence or not.


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think you'll find that prisons totally consist of people who claim to be innocent.  I am sure a small minority possibly are, but I'd prefer to use the verdict of the English legal system as my guide to innocence or not.
		
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You are permitted to think for yourself, you know.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			No.
		
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I hope you never get called up for jury service for anything like this. 
The defendant wouldn't stand a chance


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think you'll find that prisons totally consist of people who claim to be innocent.  I am sure a small minority possibly are, but I'd prefer to use the verdict of the English legal system as my guide to innocence or not.
		
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I prefer to think for myself. 
I wish I was as confident as you with the legal system.


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## MadAdey (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think the crime should be minimised. I don't want rapists getting off with a lesser charge because, for example, their victim chooses not to fight off a bigger, stronger attacker.
		
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But do you no think that there is a difference between someone who goes out and lurks around corners waiting to snatch someone, tie them up, forcibly have sex with them and what happened in the Evans situation?I agree that it should not be judged on wether the victim fought back or not, but surely the 2 situations are totally different. If I got in my car, was not taking notice of what I was doing, mounted the kerb and accidentally killed someone I would be charged differently than if I got in my car intending to mount the kerb with the intent of killing someone.So why shouldn't rape be charged on different levels. All other forms of crime have different definitions. If they did then they might be able to increase the minimum punishment for some forms of rape.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

Can some one remove MadAdey from the post please,he's talking way too much sense.


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Have you thought for one minute that he could be innocent?
		
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Absolutely, but at present he isn't. Is the conviction questionable? Maybe, but it has already been considered for appeal and found wanting.

To pick up on something that was brought up earlier. Can a woman be raped and have no recollection of it. Absolutely 10000000% they can, including gang raped. Can a woman be dragged into an alley at knife point and raped but not show any signs of a struggle? Absolutely 10000000% they can.

I've twice been part of the prosecution for rape crimes. The Police, followed by the CPS and the the defending barrister make the victim jump through hoops doing back flips long before a verdict is even on the horizon. As a witness for the prosecution, you get similar treatment. Is Evan guilty? I'd be surprised if he isn't, but there is always a possibility.

Ched Evans' website describes how sober she was when she got out of the taxi, but elsewhere on the site it contradicts itself by saying how much the girl had to drink and how she was tettering on her high heels. It also describes the night porter hearing the sounds of sex coming from the room, but does the night porter know who was having sex at that time? The website is full of spin and innuendo, and doesn't do Evans any favours.

He had sex, by his own admission, with someone the Police, the CPS and the court has deemed not in a fit state to give consent.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			I hope you never get called up for jury service for anything like this. 
The defendant wouldn't stand a chance 

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Not true actually, I'd be very keen to get to the truth. In this case, from what I've read (including his own website) I tend to think he's guilty but I know I haven't got all the facts, haven't heard the arguments. But I also know that a jury did get all that so I accept their decision. I also accept their decision to find the other guy not guilty.


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Can some one remove MadAdey from the post please,he's talking way too much sense.
		
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FairwayDodger said:



			Not true actually, I'd be very keen to get to the truth. In this case, from what I've read (including his own website) I tend to think he's guilty but I know I haven't got all the facts, haven't heard the arguments. But I also know that a jury did get all that so I accept their decision. I also accept their decision to find the other guy not guilty.
		
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Can someone remove FD from this post, she's talking way too much sense.


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## jp5 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			He had sex, by his own admission, with someone the Police, the CPS and the court has deemed not in a fit state to give consent.
		
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If that is true, how did the other bloke manage to be found not guilty then?

Should all of this outrage be aimed at how he has got off the conviction?


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## User20205 (Jan 9, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			But do you no think that there is a difference between someone who goes out and lurks around corners waiting to snatch someone, tie them up, forcibly have sex with them and what happened in the Evans situation?I agree that it should not be judged on wether the victim fought back or not, but surely the 2 situations are totally different. If I got in my car, was not taking notice of what I was doing, mounted the kerb and accidentally killed someone I would be charged differently than if I got in my car intending to mount the kerb with the intent of killing someone.So why shouldn't rape be charged on different levels. All other forms of crime have different definitions. If they did then they might be able to increase the minimum punishment for some forms of rape.
		
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That's what happens, the severity of the crime, the existence of violence etc are taken into account when sentencing. 5 years is the minimum tariff. He got the lowest term possible
The starting point is 13 years for a more 'serious' offence.

There is some ambiguity re some rape cases including this one. Often it comes down to one persons word against another's. 
There is a campaign that advocates yes meaning yes, positive consent. Is that realistic ?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

254 posts & still discussing such a sensitive subject without it getting silly. 
Come on Mods surely a thumbs up isn't too much to ask


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Can someone remove FD from this post, she's talking way too much sense.
		
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Haha touchÃ©


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## User20205 (Jan 9, 2015)

jp5 said:



			If that is true, how did the other bloke manage to be found not guilty then?

Should all of this outrage be aimed at how he has got off the conviction?
		
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She consented to go back with him. Ched Evans snuck in the room and took advantage of her and the situation, no consent was given.


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## JCW (Jan 9, 2015)

Look its like this , everyone should get a 2nd chance ok , so if investors and others say they will pull out then its their right too just like the fans who won`t go to matches if he was playing , we are talking about peoples rights here , all he has to do is find a club that will take him on and not worry about what others think , its that simple , where and who this club is , well that`s another story , guy is done as a footballer , only way back now is he wins his appeal , what chance is that


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			I wish I was as confident as you with the legal system.
		
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I'd share those concerns, particularly after reading the transcript posted on here.


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## Beezerk (Jan 9, 2015)

jp5 said:



			If that is true, how did the other bloke manage to be found not guilty then?

Should all of this outrage be aimed at how he has got off the conviction?
		
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You pull a lass in a club, you're both kinda blotto but you go back and have sex which she agrees to. However on the way back to your house in the taxi you text your mate and he comes back a bit later when he's failed to pull. He then has a go with the lass while she's wasted on the bed.
Did your mate rape the her or is it just normal "laddy" stuff?


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

Evans has been given a second chance, and is legally free to join a Club. You can't force a Club to employ him though, and I doubt any will, unless his conviction is over turned. I can't believe that Oldham were so naive to think they could employ him, without all the outrage that occured when he looked like joining Sheffield United and Hartlepool.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			254 posts & still discussing such a sensitive subject without it getting silly. 
Come on Mods surely a thumbs up isn't too much to ask 

Click to expand...

:thup:

Well done, keep it up


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			:thup:

Well done, keep it up
		
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cheers Phil


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			Evans has been given a second chance, and is legally free to join a Club. You can't force a Club to employ him though, and I doubt any will, unless his conviction is over turned. I can't believe that Oldham were so naive to think they could employ him, without all the outrage that occured when he looked like joining Sheffield United and Hartlepool.
		
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Yeah good point,surely no club will touch him now. Sheff Utd got screwed pretty bad by all of this. 
Even if his conviction is overturned he's still going to get hammered by opposition fans. 
Wonder how serious the police are taking these threats being made to people working for the clubs that considered signing Evans.


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			254 posts & still discussing such a sensitive subject without it getting silly. 
Come on Mods surely a thumbs up isn't too much to ask 

Click to expand...




PhilTheFragger said:



			:thup:

Well done, keep it up
		
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Pin-seeker said:



cheers Phil
		
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Quick, now he's gone let's do silly things!! :ears::clap:


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			Evans has been given a second chance, and is legally free to join a Club. *You can't force a Club to employ him though, *and I doubt any will, unless his conviction is over turned. I can't believe that Oldham were so naive to think they could employ him, without all the outrage that occured when he looked like joining Sheffield United and Hartlepool.
		
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Indeed you can't, but apparently you can force a club NOT to employ him, even if you have to resort to threatening a retaliatory rape in order to do so.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ard-member-told-daughter-raped-deal-done.html


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Yeah good point,surely no club will touch him now. Sheff Utd got screwed pretty bad by all of this. 
Even if his conviction is overturned he's still going to get hammered by opposition fans. 
Wonder how serious the police are taking these threats being made to people working for the clubs that considered signing Evans.
		
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Hopefully very seriously. There's something particularly perverse about people protesting about a rapist by making rape threats....


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hopefully very seriously. There's something particularly perverse about people protesting about a rapist by making rape threats....
		
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It's disgusting,no one should be subject to that. 
Probably just idiots/cowards shooting off their mouths on the end of a phone. 
Still very serious tho.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			It's disgusting,no one should be subject to that. 
Probably just idiots/cowards shooting off their mouths on the end of a phone. 
Still very serious tho.
		
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Totally agree.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed you can't, but apparently you can force a club NOT to employ him, even if you have to resort to threatening a retaliatory rape in order to do so.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ard-member-told-daughter-raped-deal-done.html

Click to expand...

 That didn't happen at Sheff U and Hartlepool, and I think it was just the excuse Oldham were looking for when they realised how naive they were being. You will always get the odd nutcase when you have tens of thousands involved, but I think the 60,000 petition, sponsors leaving etc might have had some affect.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			That didn't happen at Sheff U and Hartlepool, and I think it was just the excuse Oldham were looking for when they realised how naive they were being. You will always get the odd nutcase when you have tens of thousands involved, but I think the 60,000 petition, sponsors leaving etc might have had some affect.
		
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Wonder how many of the 60,000 were Oldham fans. 
What crowds do they get?


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## brendy (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			That didn't happen at Sheff U and Hartlepool, and I think it was just the excuse Oldham were looking for when they realised how naive they were being. You will always get the odd nutcase when you have tens of thousands involved, but I think the 60,000 petition, sponsors leaving etc might have had some affect.
		
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But Oldham have form for employing convicts. Lee Hughes was signed after serving time for killing someone via dangerous driving who (along with his passenger) then fled the scene for 36 hours then handed himself in, plenty of time for alcohol etc to dissipate, then lied about how it happened. not that that fixes a life wiped out.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Wonder how many of the 60,000 were Oldham fans. 
What crowds do they get?
		
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4,415 according to this link;

http://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-league-one-2013-2014/1/


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Thing is, Evans had his trial and was found guilty. It's the poor victim that's facing the trial by media, who has had to move and change her identity five times.
		
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Why did she have to go that? Everyone in the local area knew who she was anyway so why did she feel she had to do this?


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			Why did she have to go that? Everyone in the local area knew who she was anyway so why did she feel she had to do this?
		
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Don't know that much about it, to escape abuse and harassment, I think. I'm assuming she's long since left Ryl.


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Don't know that much about it, to escape abuse and harassment, I think. I'm assuming she's long since left Ryl.
		
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Why would she be abused and harassed? She's the victim. I'm sure you can see what I'm angling at here FD.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Wonder how many of the 60,000 were Oldham fans. 
What crowds do they get?
		
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 Do you have to be an attending supporter to sign a petition ? Do you actually have to be a supporter at all to sign ? Wouldn't a local with an interest in your town/area be qualified ?

When Oldham were in the top flight they got crowds of 20,000, so probably have a lot of followers even if they don't go to games now. How many forumers that comment on the football threads on here actually go to games ? I imagine less than 10% of clubs 'supporters' actually attend matches, but a football club like Oldham is probably a huge part of the town, and a lot of locals feels they can comment/sign a petition.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			Why would she be abused and harassed? She's the victim. I'm sure you can see what I'm angling at here FD.
		
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I think it's because there are a lot of scumbags out there. I'm sure that's not what you're driving at though....


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think it's because there are a lot of scumbags out there. I'm sure that's not what you're driving at though....
		
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I'll drop you a PM


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			Do you have to be an attending supporter to sign a petition ? Do you actually have to be a supporter at all to sign ? Wouldn't a local with an interest in your town/area be qualified ?

When Oldham were in the top flight they got crowds of 20,000, so probably have a lot of followers even if they don't go to games now. How many forumers that comment on the football threads on here actually go to games ? I imagine less than 10% of clubs 'supporters' actually attend matches, but a football club like Oldham is probably a huge part of the town, and a lot of locals feels they can comment/sign a petition.
		
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So were they all local people signing the petition? 
Or was it people that don't think he should be allowed back in the game? 
If you stand in a town centre asking people to sign a petition to "stop a rapist signing for the local team" you'll get every old dear & their mate signing it even if they know nothing about the case.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

brendy said:



			But Oldham have form for employing convicts. Lee Hughes was signed after serving time for killing someone via dangerous driving who (along with his passenger) then fled the scene for 36 hours then handed himself in, plenty of time for alcohol etc to dissipate, then lied about how it happened. not that that fixes a life wiped out.
		
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 Each case on its own merits I would have thought, and Club could tell by reaction at Sheff U and Hartlepool how this would go. Each new Club he tries to join will provoke even greater reaction. Can you imagine sponsors will stay with a Club that take him on ? Evans needs to wait until his case is 'reviewed' to have any chance of joining a club, assuming his conviction is quashed. I would not support a player playing for my club that is a convicted rapist. In the past Reading have sacked a player for taking drugs, so employing one convicted of rape.

Lee Hughes was given a second chance. Is that wrong ? Rightly or wrongly when he returned to football there was not the same outrage. Personally think the cases are different. Also the way the players have acted once they were freed from jail is completely different.


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			Why would she be abused and harassed? She's the victim. I'm sure you can see what I'm angling at here FD.
		
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Don't forget, Ronnie Biggs was feted by many in East London. Just maybe Ched's locals are doing the same for him.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			Also the way the players have acted once they were freed from jail is completely different.
		
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Probably because one of them believes he's innocent.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			So were they all local people signing the petition? 
Or was it people that don't think he should be allowed back in the game? 
If you stand in a town centre asking people to sign a petition to "stop a rapist signing for the local team" you'll get every old dear & their mate signing it even if they know nothing about the case.
		
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 What is there to know about the case. As it stands he is a convicted rapist. Everything else is heresay. If his conviction gets over turned then I am sure plenty would sign a petition for Evans to play for their Club. Would you sign a petition 'to allow a player wrongly convicetd of rape, who served a jail sentence for something he didn't do play for your club' Where do I sign.

A lot of people, me included, do not want a rapist playing for my local football team. We have more families, children going to matches than ever before, and a convicted rapist is going to be a role model, have his name chanted, have his name on the back of kids shirts. Sorry not for me.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Probably because one of them believes he's innocent.
		
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 He has made an apology though, months too late, and once he realised he wasn't being signed up without one.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			What is there to know about the case.
		
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Personally I'd like to know a few details about a case before forming my own opinion. 
Maybe some are happy to have total faith in the legal system.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			He has made an apology though, months too late, and once he realised he wasn't being signed up without one.
		
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Has he apologised for rape?


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Don't forget, Ronnie Biggs was feted by many in East London. Just maybe Ched's locals are doing the same for him.
		
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Maybe that's the case or maybe it's a case she couldn't face locals because of the alleged lies she told or in this case truth she couldn't remeber ?


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## Val (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Has he apologised for rape?
		
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No because he is pleading his innocence, why would she apologise for rape, that would be an admission of guilt


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Personally I'd like to know a few details about a case before forming my own opinion. 
Maybe some are happy to have total faith in the legal system.
		
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 Personally I would rather have faith in our legal system, and a conviction by jury, over rumours and hearsay. Evans will have his chance when his case is 'reveiwed'. If innocent he will not be the first person to be convicted wrongly, but I am sure they are a small percentage compared to the ones convicted correctly. Seem to remember a lot of peope saying they were innocent when actually they were guilty.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Has he apologised for rape?
		
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Has he made an apology ?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

Val said:



			No because he is pleading his innocence, why would she apologise for rape, that would be an admission of guilt
		
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I agree.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 9, 2015)

richart said:



			Has he made an apology ?
		
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He has made an apology though, months too late, and once he realised he wasn't being signed up without one.

Didn't you just post this??


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## MadAdey (Jan 9, 2015)

The thread has moved on a bit since I looked in last, but I want to ask a question that may throw up some conflicting opinions. Is guilty of forcing someone to have sex, or is he guilty of having sex without the victims consent. For me he is not guilty of forcing someone to have sex, but having sex without consent. To me these are 2 totally different situations, just like murder and manslaughter. You would look at someone who has been convicted of manslaughter different to a murderer. But in the case of Evans he has been convicted of the same crime as someone who beats and rapes women. Was there intent on his behalf to commit rape, I believe not. That is why I think sexual assault should be looked at like homicide is, 2 different types.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			The thread has moved on a bit since I looked in last, but I want to ask a question that may throw up some conflicting opinions. Is guilty of forcing someone to have sex, or is he guilty of having sex without the victims consent. For me he is not guilty of forcing someone to have sex, but having sex without consent. To me these are 2 totally different situations, just like murder and manslaughter. You would look at someone who has been convicted of manslaughter different to a murderer. But in the case of Evans he has been convicted of the same crime as someone who beats and rapes women. Was there intent on his behalf to commit rape, I believe not. That is why I think sexual assault should be looked at like homicide is, 2 different types.
		
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  If you drugged someone and had sex with them what category would that fall into ?


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## MadAdey (Jan 10, 2015)

richart said:



			If you drugged someone and had sex with them what category would that fall into ?
		
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The more serious one obviously. You have intentionally drugged them in order to have sex. So that's a pre meditated attack, as you planned it.


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2015)

Val said:



			Why did she have to go that? Everyone in the local area knew who she was anyway so why did she feel she had to do this?
		
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I think she was pressured (threatened?) by Ched supporters who believe(d) him to be innocent.


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## Fish (Jan 10, 2015)

If Val is alluding to her being a bit of a known slapper, drunk or simply promiscuous, I'm sure the defence would have known and put this forward against her character, if so, they still found him guilty because that still doesn't warrant rape or any non-consensual  sex!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 10, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			The thread has moved on a bit since I looked in last, but I want to ask a question that may throw up some conflicting opinions. Is guilty of forcing someone to have sex, or is he guilty of having sex without the victims consent. For me he is not guilty of forcing someone to have sex, but having sex without consent. *To me these are 2 totally different situations,* just like murder and manslaughter. You would look at someone who has been convicted of manslaughter different to a murderer. But in the case of Evans he has been convicted of the same crime as someone who beats and rapes women. Was there intent on his behalf to commit rape, I believe not. That is why I think sexual assault should be looked at like homicide is, 2 different types.
		
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What about from the victims point of view as opposed to the rapists?  Are they different offenses then?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 10, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			What about from the victims point of view as opposed to the rapists?  Are they different offenses then?
		
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surely the fact that there are different sentences handed it for different crimes suggest the repercussions must in the eye of the laws vary slightly?

No women deserves to be raped. Unjust think that there are levels. The women attacked in an alley will have memories and trauma. This girl didn't rmemener even havin sex because she was so smashed. I'm not saying that means she deserved it or anything. But I'd say the lasting effect will vary victim to victim based in many things. The victims character, the incident, the circumstances all play a part.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 10, 2015)

richart said:



			Personally I would rather have faith in our legal system, and a conviction by jury, over rumours and hearsay. Evans will have his chance when his case is 'reveiwed'. If innocent he will not be the first person to be convicted wrongly, but I am sure they are a small percentage compared to the ones convicted correctly. Seem to remember a lot of peope saying they were innocent when actually they were guilty.

Click to expand...

What he said.  I agree that the legal system is not perfect and there are miscarriages of justice.  But I'd take the view of a jury who has heard all of the evidence over the views of contributors to a golf forum that with the best will in the world have not.  And if it turns out he is innocent then fair enough, rehabilitate him and let him play. In my opinion he will still be nasty piece of work and borderline sexual predator, but he certainly won't be the first or last of this type to play football and he should be allowed to resume his career.  As Ethan said in the very first post this was not supposed to be about his guilt or not as no one on this board can make an informed decision on that based on all the evidence.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 10, 2015)

Papas1982;1211499[B said:
			
		


			]surely the fact that there are different sentences handed it for different crimes suggest the repercussions must in the eye of the laws vary slightly?[/B]

No women deserves to be raped. Unjust think that there are levels. The women attacked in an alley will have memories and trauma. This girl didn't rmemener even havin sex because she was so smashed. I'm not saying that means she deserved it or anything. But I'd say the lasting effect will vary victim to victim based in many things. The victims character, the incident, the circumstances all play a part.
		
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Yes but as FD has said on many occasions that is reflected in the sentence.  You can differentiate just about every crime if you want to.  Burglary can range from stealing something from a multinational supermarket to stealing a disabled persons whole belongings.  And I suspect most people would view them differently in the seriousness.  But they are still burglary. People can go on the sex offenders register for having sex with a 15 year old if they are 16, or old men sexually abusing a young child.  But again they are still sex offenders in the eyes of the law. 

I do not think the naming or category of the offense needs to change, but the perception of many (that unfortunately I suspect are 100% male) that rape is only the violent attack by strangers. And if you do not do this you are not raping someone but committing a different offense, whatever you are going to call it? When you are not, you are still a rapist based on the accepted legal definition. I do agree the sentence will and should be different in some circumstances, but the crime is the same.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 10, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			But I'd take the view of a jury who has heard all of the evidence....
		
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I am guessing you've never sat on a jury...

My experiences of having done so have only left me questioning the 'system'...


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 10, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			I am guessing you've never sat on a jury...

My experiences of having done so have only left me questioning the 'system'...
		
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A very big +1 to that!


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## Papas1982 (Jan 10, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes but as FD has said on many occasions that is reflected in the sentence.  You can differentiate just about every crime if you want to.  Burglary can range from stealing something from a multinational supermarket to stealing a disabled persons whole belongings.  And I suspect most people would view them differently in the seriousness.  But they are still burglary. People can go on the sex offenders register for having sex with a 15 year old if they are 16, or old men sexually abusing a young child.  But again they are still sex offenders in the eyes of the law. 

I do not think the naming or category of the offense needs to change, but the perception of many (that unfortunately I suspect are 100% male) that rape is only the violent attack by strangers. And if you do not do this you are not raping someone but committing a different offense, whatever you are going to call it? When you are not, you are still a rapist based on the accepted legal definition. I do agree the sentence will and should be different in some circumstances, but the crime is the same.
		
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My only point, was simply as Madadey said. Maybe more convictions would come from it.

You've made you presumtion that only men can misunderstand rape which is your call. But in this case having read the court release I'd have sided with not guilty. Purely because the isn't any PROOF that she didn't consent. But if they're was a crime of taken advantage then I'd find him guilty. 

From what has been written it seems one word against the other and you stron belief that all men misunderstand couod go both ways. I'd suggest every female jury had him pegged guilty from the off. So only had to convert one or two men's thiughts. 

Back to op though, if we are gonna accept that our Egan system is the best and all that. Then our society also says people deserve the opportunity to rehabilitate, and therefore he should be allowed to continue.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 10, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			What he said.  I agree that the legal system is not perfect and there are miscarriages of justice.  But I'd take the view of a jury who has heard all of the evidence over the views of contributors to a golf forum that with the best will in the world have not.  And if it turns out he is innocent then fair enough, rehabilitate him and let him play. In my opinion he will still be nasty piece of work and borderline sexual predator, but he certainly won't be the first or last of this type to play football and he should be allowed to resume his career.  As Ethan said in the very first post this was not supposed to be about his guilt or not as no one on this board can make an informed decision on that based on all the evidence.
		
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Going by your belief that it's either rape or it isn't. And that their shouldn't be different categories. If he's found innocent on appeal. Why, should he race rehabilitation when legally he's done nothing wrong?


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## sawtooth (Jan 10, 2015)

I agree that every deserves a second chance, serve your time and get on with your life.

However, its a special case when you are talking about someone in the public eye. A potential role model for young people. 

IMO he should take a job in football or doing something else where he is just a regular employee.


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## User20205 (Jan 10, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			I am guessing you've never sat on a jury...

My experiences of having done so have only left me questioning the 'system'...
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			A very big +1 to that!
		
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I've not sat on a jury. I'm interested in why you say the above. Are you saying you don't get to see all the evidence? That jury's are led by either the judge or members find it hard to park their own preconceptions?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 10, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Going by your belief that it's either rape or it isn't. And that their shouldn't be different categories. If he's found innocent on appeal. Why, should he race rehabilitation when legally he's done nothing wrong?
		
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I mean rehabilitate him into the game as he is currently poison.  Also he could arguably do with some advice on how to conduct himself with regards to women, but as I said in another post, he won't be the only footballer than needs this.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 10, 2015)

therod said:



			I've not sat on a jury. I'm interested in why you say the above. Are you saying you don't get to see all the evidence? That jury's are led by either the judge or members find it hard to park their own preconceptions?
		
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Some members of juries use their prejudices to "square up" perceived injustices, some refuse to acknowledge the relevant facts or law and give a verdict according to something else, some juries are arguably slanted by judges disbarring certain people or professions from sitting on them and some cases beggar belief that they were ever bought in the first place is my personal experience.  i've been called 4 times, must have upset someone.

It will make an interesting conversation on the 23rd of February.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 10, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			Some members of juries use their prejudices to "square up" perceived injustices, some refuse to acknowledge the relevant facts or law and give a verdict according to something else, some juries are arguably slanted by judges disbarring certain people or professions from sitting on them and some cases beggar belief that they were ever bought in the first place is my personal experience....
		
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Similar experiences to mine... Can't be too specific but one case I got to sit on one of the jurors was having to be brought to the court from his home, each day, by the police [court officers maybe] to ensure his attendance... I am sure, from that, you can guess his input [or lack of] to the discussion...


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 10, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Similar experiences to mine... Can't be too specific but one case I got to sit on one of the jurors was having to be brought to the court from his home, each day, by the police [court officers maybe] to ensure his attendance... I am sure, from that, you can guess his input [or lack of] to the discussion...
		
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Scary that these people can have such a big say on someone's life. 
And others form an opinion based on their decision.


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## User20205 (Jan 10, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			Some members of juries use their prejudices to "square up" perceived injustices, some refuse to acknowledge the relevant facts or law and give a verdict according to something else, some juries are arguably slanted by judges disbarring certain people or professions from sitting on them and some cases beggar belief that they were ever bought in the first place is my personal experience.  i've been called 4 times, must have upset someone.

It will make an interesting conversation on the 23rd of February.
		
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That sounds like a fun night

I'd rather take the mickey out of rich.

Does this mean that you and mega Steve question all verdicts delivered by trial by jury ?


Maybe some qualification, like an iq above 75, should be introduced?


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## c1973 (Jan 10, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Scary that these people can have such a big say on someone's life. 
And others form an opinion based on their decision.
		
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Justice is delivered by people like this.....


http://www.ardrossanherald.com/news...man-dodged-jury-service-to-catch-a-lift-home/


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## MegaSteve (Jan 10, 2015)

therod said:



			Does this mean that you and mega Steve question all verdicts delivered by trial by jury ?
		
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Can't speak for BiM but I'm old enough and ugly enough to take on board there's no such thing as a perfect 'system'... And, I guess, our way has, in balance, served us well for quite a while...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 10, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't speak for BiM but I'm old enough and ugly enough to take on board there's no such thing as a perfect 'system'... And, I guess, our way has, in balance, served us well for quite a while...
		
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Its OK, BIM is also old and ugly, but a finer chap you couldnt meet.  he also has experience in the law enforcement business, so knows what he is talking about.

No system is perfect, granted, but sometimes you look at the odd sentences being handed out for different crimes and it really makes you wonder if these people who judge are from the same planet


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2015)

So whats the alternative to the Jury system?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			So whats the alternative to the Jury system?
		
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Errr....... Its the best we have, my only problem with it is that too many people are excluded from particular cases because of a perceived bias one way or another.
The whole idea was originally to get a cross section of society rather than a hand picked few who conform to the defendants ideals


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Errr....... Its the best we have, my only problem with it is that too many people are excluded from particular cases because of a perceived bias one way or another.
The whole idea was originally to get a cross section of society rather than a hand picked few who conform to the defendants ideals
		
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Certainly seem so for most cases - the alternative being Professionals such as 1 or several Judges. It has been argued that some complex cases, such as many of those that involve the Serious Fraud Office, could well overwhelm juries, so should be judged by Judiciary only. The contra to that is that the Judiciary, while trained in Law, are quite possibly even more likely to be out of touch/ignorant of such complexities and, by their nature, are very often quite remote from the rest of society, the occasional daft statement/decision that has come from Magistrates demonstrating that!

Juries are apparently normally 'driven' by about 4 or 5 of their members, an advantage of having 12 being the likelihood of getting that number of 'attentive' members!


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## USER1999 (Jan 10, 2015)

I'm nearly 50, and have never done jury service. Same for Mrs mogs. How do they select people?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 10, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't speak for BiM but I'm old enough and ugly enough to take on board there's no such thing as a perfect 'system'... And, I guess, our way has, in balance, served us well for quite a while...
		
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Spoke pretty well for me on the first part, definitely old enough & ugly enough (as my mate Fragger has confirmed :ears: )to realise that little is perfect in our world.  But having seen the decisions I have come back from juries, and indeed some of the comments, I am firmly in the camp that there needs to be some sort of selection system other than dragging names off the electoral roll, or maybe a case for 3 judges rather than a jury in some cases.


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## MadAdey (Jan 10, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Errr....... Its the best we have, my only problem with it is that too many people are excluded from particular cases because of a perceived bias one way or another.
The whole idea was originally to get a cross section of society rather than a hand picked few who conform to the defendants ideals
		
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it has to be like to get a fair trial for the accused. If you had to sit on a jury of a rapist and your daughter previously had been raped but her accused had got away with it, could you honestly give him a fair trial or would he be guilty until proven innocent.

your a straight up decent bloke Phil, but your only human like the rest of us. I don't think in that situation I could give the accused a fair trial.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Errr....... Its the best we have, my only problem with it is that too many people are excluded from particular cases because of a perceived bias one way or another.
The whole idea was originally to get a cross section of society rather than a hand picked few who conform to the defendants ideals
		
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When I did jury service I think there were something like 16 available jurors and each one was sworn in, at at this conjuncture the Defence could object to an individual without giving reason but only to a max of 4.    I am not aware that your previous history is taken into account when picked for service, you do have to mention whether you have anything that you feel should exclude you from service like knowing the accused.

Potential Jurors attend the court for the week and are randomly selected into groups.   These groups are allocated to trials as and when needed, many do not get to sit on Juries and are released from service early, some can sit on multiple Juries, some can sit around all week and not be used.

It can be a tough job, especially when at the end of the trial you are all put in a room and left to get on with it.  There is no handbook or training course and as you can probably imagine, it's not easy to get 12 people to reach agreement.


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## chrisd (Jan 10, 2015)

Many years ago I was a witness in a tobacco and cigarette smuggling case at Crown Court. The guys were banged to rights, they were caught in the act of unloading a 40ft lorry of the contraband into a unit they had rented with a forklift they had purchased. 

In court the only defence, and is well known, is that they were asked to do a legal unload for someone and didn't know what the load was. They said that they met someone in a pub, didn't know his name or address and agreed to help him out by unloading his shipment as the lorry driver had to get back to Italy quickly. This is a common defence but juries pretty much always return a guilty verdict - but not in this case and it was thought that as the jury was predominantly made up of young people, they don't see smuggling as a major crime and didn't want to convict them !!

I knew they were as guilty as hell and the case was prosecuted well enough for that to be proven beyond doubt!


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## MadAdey (Jan 11, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			When I did jury service I think there were something like 16 available jurors and each one was sworn in, at at this conjuncture the Defence could object to an individual without giving reason but only to a max of 4.    I am not aware that your previous history is taken into account when picked for service, you do have to mention whether you have anything that you feel should exclude you from service like knowing the accused.
		
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Its at this point though that you need to speak up if like I said in my post that, you have close personal feelings towards the crime the defendant has committed, from what I understand if you found him guilty there is a risk that the defence could move for a miss trial. Like in the example I gave earlier, if you sat on the jury for the trial of a rapist after someone close to you was raped but the accused got away with it, they could say that you are not able to give the accused a fair trial.


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## Foxholer (Jan 11, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			When I did jury service I think there were something like 16 available jurors and each one was sworn in, at at this conjuncture the Defence could object to an individual without giving reason but only to a max of 4...
		
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No Preremptory Challenges available to the Defence these days - since 1988.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			No Preremptory Challenges available to the Defence these days - since 1988.
		
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When we were sworn in there were more than twelve and some had to return to the Jury room.

Anyhow, who says it was not before 1988!


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## JCW (Jan 11, 2015)

Everyone should get a 2nd chance no matter what


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jan 12, 2015)

JCW said:



			Everyone should get a 2nd chance no matter what
		
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Doesn't this contrast with your oft repeated support for numerous islands ruled with an iron fist?


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## JCW (Jan 12, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Doesn't this contrast with your oft repeated support for numerous islands ruled with an iron fist?
		
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If you do your research and know what it is you are talking about then you understand , my support for the iron fist only refers to people who break the law like drug dealers , robbers and the rest , Guys like me who just go about our business have nothing to fear or worry about as it does not apply to us


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 12, 2015)

JCW said:



			If you do your research and know what it is you are talking about then you understand , my support for the iron fist only refers to people who break the law like drug dealers , robbers and the rest , Guys like me who just go about our business have nothing to fear or worry about as it does not apply to us
		
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So no second chances for drug dealers and robbers?


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2015)

JCW said:



			If you do your research and know what it is you are talking about then you understand , my support for the iron fist only refers to people who break the law like drug dealers , robbers and the rest , Guys like me who just go about our business have nothing to fear or worry about as it does not apply to us
		
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ha ha ha.  I love your style JCW. I'm pretty sure you could have an argument with yourself.


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## JCW (Jan 12, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			So no second chances for drug dealers and robbers?
		
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Yep they get 2 chances plus a warning to stop or else , its their choice then to carry on or not


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## JCW (Jan 12, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			ha ha ha.  I love your style JCW. I'm pretty sure you could have an argument with yourself.
		
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Wrong , you sure or not , do not sit on the fence


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2015)

JCW said:



			Wrong , you sure or not , do not sit on the fence
		
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Ok then. Im absolutely sure that you need to look up the definition of "Iron Fist" and "second chances". How's that?


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