# Labour and the SNP



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2015)

I would have thought that doing a deal with the SNP would be a major plus for any new Labour leader.
The alternative seems to be 20 years of Tory government and a break up of the Union. 


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-generation/#more-72121


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## 6inchcup (Jun 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would have thought that doing a deal with the SNP would be a major plus for any new Labour leader.
The alternative seems to be 20 years of Tory government and a break up of the Union. 


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-generation/#more-72121

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and WHAT would the problem be in that !!!!!!!


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## Craigg (Jun 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			and WHAT would the problem be in that !!!!!!!
		
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^^^^^^^
Agreed:thup:


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## Tashyboy (Jun 20, 2015)

Well am bored waiting for me tea to mash. So ere goes.

i have no interest whatsoever ever in Labour or the SNP. However the Tories being in for 20 yrs hmm am not sure. Us/joe Public can be a fickle lot when it comes to voting. As far as I can see the SNP have one mandate. Independence, and as soon as that proves financially unworkable I don't see how they will govern, oil will not keep Scotland afloat forever.

re Labour that last idiot leader of Labour has done as much damage to his party as Tony Blair did. Words will not change Labour. 

i have always ways believed that a government is as strong as the opposition. On that basis,over this next term I think we are screwed.

off back into man cave tea mashed.


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2015)

Wonder how many seats Labour would lose in England if they went into an alliance with the SNP? They certainly wouldn't get my vote. The SNP might be the be all and end all for you but not for many others, and Labour allying themselves to a party like that.... nah, wouldn't do them any good at all.

But, out of curiosity, why is the decision not to enter into an alliance seen as a smack in the face to the Scottish electorate? Smoke and mirrors, and twisting it into a national slur... poor gutter politics in my opinion.


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## jp5 (Jun 20, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			re Labour that last idiot leader of Labour has done as much damage to his party as Tony Blair did. Words will not change Labour.
		
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Why was he an idiot?


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## alexbrownmp (Jun 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I would have thought that doing a deal with the SNP would be a major plus for any new Labour leader.*
The alternative seems to be 20 years of Tory government and a break up of the Union. 


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-generation/#more-72121

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Do a deal with a party who's purpose in life is to break up the Union?

The article is a badly written piece of scaremongering. Labour need to sort out their issues and get credible policies and people in place to become the credible opposition again.

I am convinced the SNP will make some serious cock-up in the coming months/years and fall out of 'flavour' with the Scottish sheep who follow blindly. Didnt they announce 3000 job losses in local authorities in Scotland recently? are they blaming that on the Tories also.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2015)

The Labour Party is lost to Scotland, the only credible opposition is the Scottish Tories.
Labour will never gain power in the UK without the old Labour Scottish votes.

The SNP core values are more akin to old labour and have quite a bit of support in the North of England.
A UK Labour leader who can recognise that would probably gain some support from the Tory wannabees in the South.

Remember many SNP supporters would rather see a federal UK than outright independence.
The Tories seem to be trying to close that door.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			and WHAT would the problem be in that !!!!!!!
		
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I thought you were quite keen on keeping Scotland in the UK.


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## Imurg (Jun 20, 2015)

Any party that "does a deal" with the SNP will effectively be run by the SNP as they will veto anything that doesn't directly benefit Scotland and certainly anything that even could have a negative outcome
If Labour want to get back in, they have to sort their own house out, get credible policies and personnel and win back the lost voters.
Doing deals won't get them back in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Any party that "does a deal" with the SNP will effectively be run by the SNP as they will veto anything that doesn't directly benefit Scotland and certainly anything that even could have a negative outcome
If Labour want to get back in, they have to sort their own house out, get credible policies and personnel and win back the lost voters.
Doing deals won't get them back in.
		
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I think that is very harsh.
If I said that any deal that benefits Scotland will be squashed by the UK Parliament.......would you disagree?

Wind Farm subsidy is current.


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## Imurg (Jun 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that is very harsh.
If I said that any deal that benefits Scotland will be squashed by the UK Parliament.......would you disagree?

Wind Farm subsidy is current.
		
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So, the SNP and Labour do a deal and get in at the next election.
2 years down the line a piece of legislation needs passing that benefits the UK as a whole but has repercussions in Scotland.
Will the SNP vote against it?


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that is very harsh.
If I said that any deal that benefits Scotland will be squashed by the UK Parliament.......would you disagree?

Wind Farm subsidy is current.
		
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I think you'll find that wind farm subsidies are ending south of the border too.

Also, there were many Lib and Con voters who disagreed with the alliance that brought about the last coalition govt. Lib voters didn't vote for Con policies but ended up getting them because of the alliance, and vice versa.

Besides, who wants a bit part, one trick pony party like the SNP having a significant say in UK policies? All they're interested in is Scotland, not the UK as a whole.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2015)

Imurg said:



			So, the SNP and Labour do a deal and get in at the next election.
2 years down the line a piece of legislation needs passing that benefits the UK as a whole but has repercussions in Scotland.
Will the SNP vote against it?
		
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In Scotland......not many folk are talking about the next UK election.
The way things are going with Labour and Tory mandarins, that is more likely to be a rUK election.


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2015)

Hobbit said:



*I think you'll find that wind farm subsidies are ending south of the border too.
*
Also, there were many Lib and Con voters who disagreed with the alliance that brought about the last coalition govt. Lib voters didn't vote for Con policies but ended up getting them because of the alliance, and vice versa.

Besides, who wants a bit part, one trick pony party like the SNP having a significant say in UK policies? All they're interested in is Scotland, not the UK as a whole.
		
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Aye, but don't let the truth get in the way of a nice snp, love in, nationalistic, flag waving, witch burning, divisive, they're aw against us, Tory bashing, hate fest though. 

#itsoorwind........andoilbtw


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## chrisd (Jun 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would have thought that doing a deal with the SNP would be a major plus for any new Labour leader.
The alternative seems to be 20 years of Tory government and a break up of the Union.
		
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If we ever tire of the Tory's we will change allegiances and vote to rid ourselves, the SNP are totally an irrelevance to the rest of the UK. Any party who does a deal with the SNP will be less popular than the Lib Dems have become and will stand no chance of holding power. Down here, we all know that the SNP agenda is entirely for, and in, only the Scottish interest and, it really is in everyone else's interest to completely marginalise them and, that way, they will never hold us to ransom


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 20, 2015)

We had a referendum to join the common market in 1970, and we will be having another one in the next couple of years to see if we want to stay in the EEC. so thats a 46 year gap

Rather than pander to the SNP, who have very recently lost a referendum, there should be no hint of another independence vote until at least 2060

That matter should be seen as settled for the long term and the sooner the SNP recognize that the better. all this sabre rattling and talk of another referendum within 5 years is tosh.

So where does that leave Wee Nicola & Smart Alec, coz nobody down south is listening to them.


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## Imurg (Jun 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In Scotland......not many folk are talking about the next UK election.
The way things are going with Labour and Tory mandarins, that is more likely to be a rUK election.
		
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So will they vote against it - in Westminster, where they have 50+ seats in a coalition with Labour...?


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## 6inchcup (Jun 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought you were quite keen on keeping Scotland in the UK.
		
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why do you think that !!! i was posting the people of ENGLAND should get to vote as well,why should the Scottish people be given more per head than the ENGLISH


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## chrisd (Jun 20, 2015)

On BBC news this evening, the Scots moaning that they didn't vote for the Tories!

Well, get this! - we didn't vote for the SNP!!


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2015)

chrisd said:



			On BBC news this evening, the Scots moaning that they didn't vote for the Tories!

Well, get this! - we didn't vote for the SNP!!
		
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And many didn't vote Labour or Libs and the Greens and P Cymru... we're in a democracy but the SNP obviously don't subscribe to that, prefering to ignore the will of their own people who didn't vote for independence.... and still rattling on and on about independence. At best, a broken record.


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2015)

chrisd said:



			On BBC news this evening, the Scots moaning that they didn't vote for the Tories!

Well, get this! - we didn't vote for the SNP!!
		
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And plenty of Scots didn't as well, that's the thing about UK (and other) elections, not everyone gets what they want. 
Don't rise to their bait, that's what they get off on you know, division, don't help them achieve their aims. :thup:


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## chrisd (Jun 20, 2015)

c1973 said:



			And plenty of Scots didn't as well, that's the thing about UK (and other) elections, not everyone gets what they want. 
Don't rise to their bait, that's what they get off on you know, division, don't help them achieve their aims. :thup: 



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Our Alex and Nicola have very short memories - didn't they lose their referendum?

Why didn't they both feel obliged to resign?


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2015)

chrisd said:



			Our Alex and Nicola have very short memories - didn't they lose their referendum?

Why didn't they both feel obliged to resign?
		
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One of them did tbf...........knowing full well he'd most probably be a shoe in for another wee stint at Westminster mind you. 

The fat poultice has done ok for himself with his divisive, sabre rattling nonsense. Lego heid will no doubt follow suit.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 20, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Why was he an idiot?
		
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charismatic, no.
leader of a party, no.
Leader of a country, no.
believable, no.
best leader of the Labour Party leading up to the election, no.

only he and the blinkered unions who thought they could manipulate him thought that he was the best for the job. Bet you diamonds the unions try it again


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## jp5 (Jun 21, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			charismatic, no.
leader of a party, no.
Leader of a country, no.
believable, no.
best leader of the Labour Party leading up to the election, no.
		
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So how does that make him an idiot?



Tashyboy said:



			only he and the blinkered unions who thought they could manipulate him thought that he was the best for the job. Bet you diamonds the unions try it again
		
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(and the 9+ million people that voted for him)


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## Tashyboy (Jun 21, 2015)

jp5 said:



			So how does that make him an idiot?



(and the 9+ million people that voted for him)
		
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Yup instead of the 20 million they needed to form a government.


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## 6inchcup (Jun 21, 2015)

jp5 said:



			So how does that make him an idiot?



(and the 9+ million people that voted for him)
		
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dont think they voted for HIM they would have been voting for the PARTY,like most LABOUR voters they are like sheep put a red rosette on a turnip up here in the north and it would win.


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## Beezerk (Jun 21, 2015)

I thought David Starkey's comment last week about the SNP was erm, interesting


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			I thought David Starkey's comment last week about the SNP was erm, interesting 

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Does anyone take any notice of what Starkey says ? The man is a total fool.

Interesting that the folk shouting democracy were not so keen on it when it looked like the SNP may have had a deciding vote at Wastemonster.

Re the refurbishment of Westminster, is it true that Carmichael will be responsible for the leaks.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would have thought that doing a deal with the SNP would be a major plus for any new Labour leader.
The alternative seems to be 20 years of Tory government and a break up of the Union.
		
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Lot of support for Labour in London...

And they [Labour] should think long and hard about doing a deal with a party who's former leader has declared "Londoners need to be punished"...


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## Beezerk (Jun 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone take any notice of what Starkey says ? The man is a total fool.
		
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He's hardly a fool.


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## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting that the folk shouting democracy were not so keen on it when it looked like the SNP may have had a deciding vote at Wastemonster.
.
		
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Lol - 

A party with 51 seats should have a deciding vote in Westminster??? You obviously wouldn't recognise a true democracy if it drove towards you in a big red bus with its lights on and horn blaring.

Crack on Doon, great entertainment as usual...:thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Lol - 

A party with 51 seats should have a deciding vote in Westminster??? You obviously wouldn't recognise a true democracy if it drove towards you in a big red bus with its lights on and horn blaring.

Crack on Doon, great entertainment as usual...:thup:
		
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By 51 if you mean the SNP then they have 56 seats in Westminster - but I guess that means they also have 51.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting that the folk shouting democracy were not so keen on it when it looked like the SNP may have had a deciding vote at Wastemonster.
		
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Would this be the same as the democracy that the SNP are not so keen on after losing the independence referendum and now keep saying that maybe it won't be a once in a generation thing and maybe they'll give it another go in a couple of years?


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## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			By 51 if you mean the SNP then they have 56 seats in Westminster - but I guess that means they also have 51.
		
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Wow! I'm impressed. Perhaps I could give you another hair to split.

That aside, your point is?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! I'm impressed. Perhaps I could give you another hair to split.

That aside, your point is?
		
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Just correcting your typo.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would this be the same as the democracy that the SNP are not so keen on after losing the independence referendum and now keep saying that maybe it won't be a once in a generation thing and maybe they'll give it another go in a couple of years?
		
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A lot has happened in Scotland since the referendum vote, maybe you missed that.
'Most dangerous woman in Britain', pre election leaks outed etc.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A lot has happened in Scotland since the referendum vote, maybe you missed that.
'Most dangerous woman in Britain', pre election leaks outed etc.
		
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She's the most neutered now.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A lot has happened in Scotland since the referendum vote, maybe you missed that.
'Most dangerous woman in Britain', pre election leaks outed etc.
		
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.......... does anyone care?


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## Adi2Dassler (Jun 22, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			why do you think that !!! i was posting the people of ENGLAND should get to vote as well,why should the Scottish people be given more per head than the ENGLISH
		
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Just to bring some sense to you're post. Folk living in Scotland get more than folk living (in certain parts of England) because we generate more moolah. Not everyone in Scotland is Scottish, fyi.

As for the premise of the OP, never gonna happen. Labour hate The SNP more than they hate the Tories.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A lot has happened in Scotland since the referendum vote, maybe you missed that.
'Most dangerous woman in Britain', pre election leaks outed etc.
		
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So what has changed so dramatically in Scotland since the referendum that means the once in a generation pledge is no longer valid?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			So what has changed so dramatically in Scotland since the referendum that means the once in a generation pledge is no longer valid?
		
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The SNP won 56 out of 59 seats at the last general election.

To put that into some kind of perspective for you it would mean the Tory party winning about 90% of seats in England.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP won 56 out of 59 seats at the last general election.

To put that into some kind of perspective for you it would mean the Tory party winning about 90% of seats in England.
		
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But we keep getting told that not everyone that voted for the SNP wants independence so I don't see why that's relevant to the once in a generation pledge.

EDIT - unless you're admitting that the SNP are a one policy party.


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## chrisd (Jun 23, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			But we keep getting told that not everyone that voted for the SNP wants independence so I don't see why that's relevant to the once in a generation pledge.

EDIT - unless you're admitting that the SNP are a one policy party.
		
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To be fair Colchester, Scottish politics is a total irrelevance to most  of us, except for Doon on here who thinks of another topic every time the last one peters out, to keep the subject alive !


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## Spuddy (Jun 23, 2015)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Colchester, Scottish politics is a total irrelevance to most  of us, except for Doon on here who thinks of another topic every time the last one peters out, to keep the subject alive !
		
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You've posted on this thread 5 times so you must care a little


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2015)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Colchester, Scottish politics is a total irrelevance to most  of us, except for Doon on here who thinks of another topic every time the last one peters out, to keep the subject alive !
		
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Really?
I thought that south of Preston oor Nicola was making the front pages as 'the most dangerous woman in Britain'


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## chrisd (Jun 23, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really?
I thought that south of Preston oor Nicola was making the front pages as 'the most dangerous woman in Britain'
		
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What's in the papers isn't in anyway representative of what's talked about in pubs and (golf) clubs in this country Doon. Most people don't even vote in a general election and even those who do, rarely chat politics to the level that you do on here. Most people wouldn't be able to pick your Nicola or Alex out of an ID parade and, much less care about their politics.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2015)

chrisd said:



			What's in the papers isn't in anyway representative of what's talked about in pubs and (golf) clubs in this country Doon. Most people don't even vote in a general election and even those who do, rarely chat politics to the level that you do on here. Most people wouldn't be able to pick your Nicola or Alex out of an ID parade and, much less care about their politics.
		
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You won't miss us when we are gone then:lol:

A phrase I am hearing a fair bit up here for the first time is 'the English Government'. [meaning Westminster]
I think lines are starting to be drawn.


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## chrisd (Jun 23, 2015)

,



Doon frae Troon said:



			You won't miss us when we are gone then:lol:

A phrase I am hearing a fair bit up here for the first time is 'the English Government'. [meaning Westminster]
I think lines are starting to be drawn.
		
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Once your vote only became a question of whether you were better off financially by staying or going then, sadly, no I won't miss the Scots in th UK. There's more to the Union than that imo


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## jp5 (Jun 23, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You won't miss us when we are gone then:lol:

A phrase I am hearing a fair bit up here for the first time is 'the English Government'. [meaning Westminster]
I think lines are starting to be drawn.
		
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Thought they'd be better informed than that.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 23, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You won't miss us when we are gone then:lol:

A phrase I am hearing a fair bit up here for the first time is 'the English Government'. [meaning Westminster]
I think lines are starting to be drawn.
		
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Maybe that's because you absorb your news from very much pro-independence sources...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Maybe that's because you absorb your news from very much pro-independence sources...
		
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What makes you think that ?
I hear the comments from friends and neighbours, I can't recall reading any.

I absorb my news from many mixed agencies as I have always had an interest in politics.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2015)

My goodness! 
Reading these posts it seems like a mini version of how the UK is governed.

We're bigger than you, so we will do as we want. This is called democracy.

The Scottish people voted for 56 out of 59 MPs because they do not trust Labour/Tories/Lib Dems to represent their Scottish constituents. This is called democracy.

In a previous post, someone mentioned the media. There is only one pro independence newspaper, and the rest are pro Union. This is a so called democracy.

There were promises made immediately prior to the referendum which were broken immediately after the result, and continue to be broken (last weeks Scotland Bill). This is democracy. 

The "once in a generation" statement keeps getting brought up about a future independence referendum. 
Before quoting this, please remember that Margaret Thatcher said before she died, that there was no need for a referendum for Scottish independence. All the Scots had to do was "return more than half of SNP Mps in Scotland, in a general election" That would be democracy.

Democracy rules. (Or it Should 
&#128546


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			There were promises made immediately prior to the referendum which were broken immediately after the result, and continue to be broken (last weeks Scotland Bill). This is democracy. 

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I've heard this quite a lot both on the forum and from people I work with but what promises have actually been broken? I thought all sides had agreed to go with the recommendations of the Smith Commission and these were in the process of being put into action. It seems as though the SNP having agreed originally have now decided that they want more.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			In a previous post, someone mentioned the media. There is only one pro independence newspaper, and the rest are pro Union. This is a so called democracy.
		
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What has the political leanings of newspapers got to do with democracy?     Do you believe the State should control their views.  Would that be called Democracy?


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've heard this quite a lot both on the forum and from people I work with but what promises have actually been broken? I thought all sides had agreed to go with the recommendations of the Smith Commission and these were in the process of being put into action. It seems as though the SNP having agreed originally have now decided that they want more.
		
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The very first paragraph of the Smith commission proposals stated that the Scottish Parliament should be made permanent. Last week the Tories voted against the SNP's amendment to the Scotland bill which would have made the Scottish Parliament permanent by law. Labour abstained ( of course ).


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			What has the political leanings of newspapers got to do with democracy?     Do you believe the State should control their views.  Would that be called Democracy?
		
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The media is already controlled by the State via meglomaniac newspaper owners with their own agendas.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			The very first paragraph of the Smith commission proposals stated that the Scottish Parliament should be made permanent. Last week the Tories voted against the SNP's amendment to the Scotland bill which would have made the Scottish Parliament permanent by law. Labour abstained ( of course ).
		
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I hadn't realised that the Scottish Parliament wasn't permanent. Any idea if the Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies are permanent or not? 

What other promises have been broken?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			What has the political leanings of newspapers got to do with democracy?     Do you believe the State should control their views.  Would that be called Democracy?
		
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It is way beyond a joke up here now SR.
Layers and layers of lies in the press, The State is not controlling the press but the vast majority of Scotland's press is supporting the Unionist cause and not the general view of the majority of the population. We are beginning to understand what Pravda was to the USSR.

Really backfiring on them though as more and more Scots see it for what it is.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is way beyond a joke up here now SR.
Layers and layers of lies in the press, The State is not controlling the press but *the vast majority of Scotland's press is supporting the Unionist cause and not the general view of the majority of the population*. We are beginning to understand what Pravda was to the USSR.

Really backfiring on them though as more and more Scots see it for what it is.
		
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Surely the general view of the majority of the population is pro Union. Maths was never my strongest subject at school but surely 55.3% voting to stay in the Union is a majority.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I hadn't realised that the Scottish Parliament wasn't permanent. Any idea if the Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies are permanent or not? 

What other promises have been broken?
		
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This is actually the biggie. As you said, all the parties signed up for the Smith proposals.Now this agreement has been broken at the first opportunity.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2015)

Shouldn't think the Welsh or NI parliaments are permanent either. Westminster doesn't give up power without a fight. 

Power devolved is power retained.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is way beyond a joke up here now SR.
Layers and layers of lies in the press, *The State is not controlling the press but the vast majority of Scotland's press is supporting the Unionist cause and not the general view of the majority of the population*. We are beginning to understand what Pravda was to the USSR.

Really backfiring on them though as more and more Scots see it for what it is.
		
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The Unionist view is the view of the majority.   I thought the majority voted for the continuation of the union!


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## c1973 (Jun 26, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33268851

Interesting reading. Pity they can't really be questioned on it as parliament (the pretend one) is breaking for the summer hols. 
Some would think they were trying to bury bad news......not really in keeping with democratic values, is it?


Yet the sheep blindly follow in the deluded belief they are somehow different and 'progressive'. 
Oh how we laugh.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2015)

This to me is one of the key paragraphs from that story........

"The Scottish government's central estimates on oil revenues published today are over 80% lower than those they published before the referendum."


And yet the SNP supporters complain about the Westminster government lying/breaking promises.

EDIT - Also interesting that the best case scenario now is worse than the worst case scenario before the referendum.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 26, 2015)

c1973 said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33268851

Interesting reading. Pity they can't really be questioned on it as parliament (the pretend one) is breaking for the summer hols. 
Some would think they were trying to bury bad news......not really in keeping with democratic values, is it?


Yet the sheep blindly follow in the deluded belief they are somehow different and 'progressive'. 
Oh how we laugh.
		
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If you are laughing at the implications of a Tory government then I suggest you are being very foolish.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 26, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			If you are laughing at the implications of a Tory government then I suggest you are being very foolish.
		
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Would those "implications" of a Tory government (with Lib Dem help for 5 years) be to reduce the deficit and unemployment despite all the experts saying the cuts would be disastrous and actually get us back into economic growth?


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would those "implications" of a Tory government (with Lib Dem help for 5 years) be to reduce the deficit and unemployment despite all the experts saying the cuts would be disastrous and actually get us back into economic growth?
		
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"The U.S. and U.K., which combined account for about a quarter of global growth, are expected to grow 3.1 percent and 2.6 percent this year, respectively. The euro area probably will expand just 1.2 percent as European Central Bank President Mario Draghi deals with a fragile Greece and embarks on a bond-purchase program to stimulate the region's growth."

You just can't believe the Tories got it so wrong. Suppose "we" could have tried to borrow our way out of the mess...


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## shagster (Jun 27, 2015)

we did borrow, and in the last government, we borrowed more than in all the time under labour.
debt up to trillions now, cant remember exact figures but look it up, it dos not matter how you spin the figures, we borrowed more, the Tories just play with words and figures to look good
people talk about majorities, yet we as a union are ruled by a party that won just over 24% of the electorate, yet a party with about 8% of the electorate, gets one seat, and we call it democracy.
all the negative vibes about the snp, the political parties should look at them selves and understand that this may happen south of the border, if people take there heads out of the sand and realise what is going on.
there is a lot of ill feeling about many topics, but now the pigs are back at the trough, its not their problem for another 4 & 1/2 years

shagster


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely the general view of the majority of the population is pro Union. Maths was never my strongest subject at school but surely 55.3% voting to stay in the Union is a majority.
		
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The recent general election when 56 out of 59 seats were won by the SNP may suggest otherwise.


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The recent general election when 56 out of 59 seats were won by the SNP may suggest otherwise.
		
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Only if the state of the Union was on the election card.....was it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Only if the state of the Union was on the election card.....was it?
		
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Well.......there is a wee bit of a clue in the name of the party that won by a huge majority.
Did you miss that?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The recent general election when 56 out of 59 seats were won by the SNP may suggest otherwise.
		
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The vagaries  of first past the post. The vast majority of the population did not vote for independence when we had the chance. The matter is settled apart from loud voices of the bitter and discontented minority.


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The vagaries  of first past the post. The vast majority of the population did not vote for independence when we had the chance. The matter is settled apart from loud voices of the bitter and discontented minority.
		
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You missed out whining... If there was a vote now, and I had a vote, I'd say yes if only to shut up the child in the corner that constantly keeps asking for a biscuit...


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## Imurg (Jun 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well.......there is a wee bit of a clue in the name of the party that won by a huge majority.
Did you miss that?
		
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Nope.
Did you miss my question earlier..?
Independence wasn't on the SNP election banner ( happy to be proved wrong) as it had been dealt with at the referendum.
Obviously the SNP's ultimate goal is a break for independence so why would any party join a coalition with them unless it was their aim as well....
In the event of a piece of legislation that would benefit the UK as a whole but potentially harm Scottish interests, would the SNP, in coalition with Labour or anyone else, veto that legislation.?
Of course they would - hence it is incredibly unlikely that the SNP will be in a coalition with any party.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The vagaries  of first past the post. The vast majority of the population did not vote for independence when we had the chance. The matter is settled apart from loud voices of the bitter and discontented minority.
		
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I would not call it a 'vast' majority.
If that was the case it would be settled.

The reaction of Cameron to the Vow and the lies told by Carmichael have since galvanised more Scots to join the SNP.
The election result in Scotland was a total game changer.

With regards to 'bitter', I see no signs of that from my SNP friends but plenty from my unionist friends.


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## c1973 (Jun 27, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			If you are laughing at the implications of a Tory government then I suggest you are being very foolish.
		
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Pretty obvious what I'm laughing at and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the (democratically elected btw  ) Tory Government.


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## alexbrownmp (Jun 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would not call it a 'vast' majority.
If that was the case it would be settled.

The reaction of Cameron to the Vow and the lies told by Carmichael have since galvanised more Scots to join the SNP.
The election result in Scotland was a total game changer.

*With regards to 'bitter', I see no signs of that from my SNP friends* but plenty from my unionist friends.
		
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Havent you SNP 'friends on here who have posted how bitter they are? I believe I have seen these posts.
You also come across as very bitter with the constant postings about the downtrodden SNP by the elected government amongst others, with no substantiated facts.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			Havent you SNP 'friends on here who have posted how bitter they are? I believe I have seen these posts.
You also come across as very bitter with the constant postings about the downtrodden SNP by the elected government amongst others, with no substantiated facts.
		
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No.. you seem to have called that one wrong.
The majority of my SNP friends still can't believe how far they have come in the space of 5 years. They seem to be patiently awaiting the inevitable outcome. Scottish elections next year will be a good indicator. 
My unionist friends seem to be in total denial of recent results, they usually make disparaging comments such as 'sheep/idiots/misguided fools' and think it will all blow over once Labour regain their rightful place in a few years.

The SNP are far from 'downtrodden' more like jubilant.

Another good example of the sloping playing field.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...acks-over-Scottish-Queen-funding-warning.html


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## shagster (Jun 27, 2015)

democratically elected tory party!!, as i said the majority are governed by a minority government, as is usually the case. as i said, just over 24% of the electorate voted tory, not a great endorsement really, the only real endorsement was apathy show by those who did not vote

shagster


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would not call it a 'vast' majority.
If that was the case it would be settled.
		
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Having chosen my words quite carefully (politician-like), I'd say it was a vast majority.

Nearly 2 to 1.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 27, 2015)

shagster said:



			democratically elected tory party!!, as i said the majority are governed by a minority government, as is usually the case. as i said, just over 24% of the electorate voted tory, not a great endorsement really, the only real endorsement was apathy show by those who did not vote

shagster
		
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The fact that they were voted by around 24% of the electorate does not change the fact that they were democratically elected.   Thats the way it works like it or not!


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## shagster (Jun 27, 2015)

until the system changes, you are going to have the apathy of a third not voting, which is not a good system. and it will not change while the pigs are at the through.
with regards to our Scottish friends, a vote of 55-45 is not a vast majority, despite what spin you put on it

shagster


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Having chosen my words quite carefully (politician-like), I'd say it was a vast majority.

Nearly 2 to 1. 

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Two to one is nearly 66.6666666666%----33.3333333333% when I went to skool.

More unionist spin


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 28, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Two to one is nearly 66.6-33.3 when I went to skool.
		
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Exactly, so we're in agreement then?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 28, 2015)

shagster said:



			until the system changes, you are going to have the apathy of a third not voting, which is not a good system. and it will not change while the pigs are at the through.
with regards to our Scottish friends, a vote of 55-45 is not a vast majority, despite what spin you put on it

shagster
		
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Read what I actually posted.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Exactly, so we're in agreement then?
		
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Well done


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is way beyond a joke up here now SR.
Layers and layers of lies in the press, The State is not controlling the press but the vast majority of Scotland's press is supporting the Unionist cause and not the general view of the majority of the population. We are beginning to understand what Pravda was to the USSR
		
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You obviously have no idea. Russia and the then USSR was and is a a country where the vast majority of the population are poorly educated and have little or no understanding of the rest of the world. Countries like this are open to widespread miss information.

Hopefully the people of Scotland are better educated than that and like the rest of the UK don't believe everything they read, see and hear in the media.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			You obviously have no idea. Russia and the then USSR was and is a a country where the vast majority of the population are poorly educated and have little or no understanding of the rest of the world. Countries like this are open to widespread miss information.

Hopefully the people of Scotland are better educated than that and like the rest of the UK don't believe everything they read, see and hear in the media.
		
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I would not be so sure of rUK and some on here.......they seem to soak up and believe 'Scottish miss information'

Sturgeon's French memo and the Queen of Scots pay cheque for starters.
For fun I might just look up French memo old posts and re-post.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			rUK
		
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No such place - its the UK and you have gone through the democratic process and wish to remain part of it.  Wipe your eyes princess and get on with it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			No such place - its the UK and you have gone through the democratic process and wish to remain part of it.  Wipe your eyes princess and get on with it.
		
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You just said 'rest of the Uk' in your post. I just abbreviated it.
Double standards apply it seems. OK for you but not for me.

And....stop being so rude please.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You just said 'rest of the Uk' in your post. I just abbreviated it.
Double standards apply it seems. OK for you but not for me.

And....stop being so rude please.
		
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As the majority of your posts are wind ups and quite derogatory to those of us who don't subscribe to your minority nationalist views I'm not sure how my post can be describe rude but if your that sensitive I'll try and remember to stick to dry your eyes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			As the majority of your posts are wind ups and quite derogatory to those of us who don't subscribe to your minority nationalist views I'm not sure how my post can be describe rude but if your that sensitive I'll try and remember to stick to dry your eyes.
		
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Just can't help yourself can you.
Has it even remotely occurred to you that my views may not be minority within the country I live.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just can't help yourself can you.
Has it even remotely occurred to you that my views may not be minority within the country I live.
		
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And there was me thinking there was a vote on this.

Perhaps I'm not to sure where you live however there was a time I was convinced it was nowhere near Scotland.


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## DCB (Jun 28, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			And there was me thinking there was a vote on this.

Perhaps I'm not to sure where you live however there was a time I was convinced it was nowhere near Scotland.
		
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There is a new phenomenon in Scottish Politics in that a vote is only a proper vote if it gives the result you want it to. If it doesn't give the result you want it's  not a proper vote and  doesn't really count. This will be enshrined in election law before then next Scottish elections next year ;-)


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2015)

DCB said:



			There is a new phenomenon in Scottish Politics in that a vote is only a proper vote if it gives the result you want it to. If it doesn't give the result you want it's  not a proper vote and  doesn't really count. This will be enshrined in election law before then next Scottish elections next year ;-)
		
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From that I assume you are a SLAB supporter DCB:lol: You have my sympathy.


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## DCB (Jun 28, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			From that I assume you are a SLAB supporter DCB:lol: You have my sympathy.
		
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Better that than those who change political allegiance quicker than some change their underwear. Scotland will pay a high price over many years to come because of those who changed their colours of that I'm sure.


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## Spuddy (Jun 28, 2015)

DCB said:



			Better that than those who change political allegiance quicker than some change their underwear. Scotland will pay a high price over many years to come because of those who changed their colours of that I'm sure.
		
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There was an interesting quote on the BBC labour programme last week from the lead shop steward at Ravenscraig.  He said 'people haven't left the Labour Party, the Labour Party have left them."

I'd argue that the vast majority of the public haven't changed their political ideologies. They've just realised that the Labour Party no longer share their views.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2015)

Spuddy said:



			There was an interesting quote on the BBC labour programme last week from the lead shop steward at Ravenscraig.  He said 'people haven't left the Labour Party, the Labour Party have left them."

I'd argue that the vast majority of the public haven't changed their political ideologies. They've just realised that the Labour Party no longer share their views.
		
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Well said sir.


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2015)

Spuddy said:



			There was an interesting quote on the BBC labour programme last week from the lead shop steward at Ravenscraig.  He said 'people haven't left the Labour Party, the Labour Party have left them."

I'd argue that the vast majority of the public haven't changed their political ideologies. They've just realised that the Labour Party no longer share their views.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			Well said sir.
		
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You're not wrong there. The Labour party of today bears little resemblance to the Socialist Party it was 30yrs+ ago. Many of their values were admirable, and perhaps should be the sort of caring values many would hope our elected representatives would aspire to. However, that sort of social engineering comes at a cost, but at this moment in the world's economic cycle they are unaffordable.

The SNP remind me very much of the old Labour Party, and as such it is understandable why a former Labour stronghold like Scotland finds them attractive, especially with the added slant of independence in the mix. And as much as their whimsical policies might appeal, I fear that funding the Shangri-La will eventually hurt Scotland and its people immensely.

Back to the original post; maybe the Labour Party also recognise their former self in the relatively fledgling party that is the SNP. To ally themselves to a party whose overriding mission is the break up of the union, as well as being on the road to the sort of mess Labour themselves brought on the UK 30+yrs ago... maybe for all Labour's current failings, they aren't that stupid.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			You're not wrong there. The Labour party of today bears little resemblance to the Socialist Party it was 30yrs+ ago. Many of their values were admirable, and perhaps should be the sort of caring values many would hope our elected representatives would aspire to. However, that sort of social engineering comes at a cost, but at this moment in the world's economic cycle they are unaffordable.

The SNP remind me very much of the old Labour Party, and as such it is understandable why a former Labour stronghold like Scotland finds them attractive, especially with the added slant of independence in the mix. And as much as their whimsical policies might appeal, I fear that funding the Shangri-La will eventually hurt Scotland and its people immensely.

Back to the original post; maybe the Labour Party also recognise their former self in the relatively fledgling party that is the SNP. To ally themselves to a party whose overriding mission is the break up of the union, as well as being on the road to the sort of mess Labour themselves brought on the UK 30+yrs ago... maybe for all Labour's current failings, they aren't that stupid.
		
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Here Here!   A very good post indeed :thup:


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## Craigg (Jun 28, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			my views may not be minority within the country I live.
		
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Not wishing to take sides here, but the referendum result was won with a majority .....wasn't it?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 28, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Not wishing to take sides here, but the referendum result was won with a majority .....wasn't it?
		
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It seems that you don't understand how it works. 56% (ish) voting No to independence in the referendum doesn't actually count for anything, but 50% (ish) voting for the SNP in the general election means that the Scottish people have spoken and the once in a generation pledge is no longer valid.


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## NWJocko (Jun 28, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			It seems that you don't understand how it works. 56% (ish) voting No to independence in the referendum doesn't actually count for anything, but 50% (ish) voting for the SNP in the general election means that the Scottish people have spoken and the once in a generation pledge is no longer valid.
		
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Don't forget it now also represents the "settled will of the Scottish people"....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Not wishing to take sides here, but the referendum result was won with a majority .....wasn't it?
		
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As I keep repeating we have all moved on since the referendum.
Over 100,000 SNP members, 10,000 turn up to hear Nicola speak, 56/7 seats out of 59 in a GE.
All facts that the Unionist seem to have turned a blind eye to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			Don't forget it now also represents the "settled will of the Scottish people".... 

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In parliamentary legal terms 'the settled will of the Scottish people' means the party with the majority of Scottish seats at Westminster.


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In parliamentary legal terms 'the settled will of the Scottish people' means the party with the majority of Scottish seats at Westminster.
		
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Like the settled will of the people last Sept...

As to The Cons voting against Nicola's amendment, and Labour abstaining. That White Paper was agreed by all parties last Nov, but then the SNP decide they want an amendment. Obviously the SNP are honouring both the settled will of the people in last Sept's vote and the agreement it made last Nov.

Mind you don't walk into something with those blinkers on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2015)

Good soap box bit in Wings regarding UK Labour politicians.
Some clever replies.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/soapbox-on-a-boat/#more-72336


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good soap box bit in Wings regarding UK Labour politicians.
Some clever replies.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/soapbox-on-a-boat/#more-72336

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Some good responses but what saddens me about an article like this is the comment about right wing media. Not saying he's wrong, but how accurate is the left wing media? The leftie's get all indignant about how accurate the right wing media is, whilst the rightie's do the same with the left wing media.

And then you get some people saying that *all* the media is controlled by the rightie's, saying the media is run by the establishment. Really?

Where is the balance in all of this? I think its about belief, and depending on which side of the political spectrum you're on determines what you believe in.

But sadly its not about honesty. How many politicians from all the parties lied when put under the spotlight during the election? Maybe lied is a little strong, maybe circumspect with the truth - guilty by omission(?).


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## GreiginFife (Jun 29, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I keep repeating we have all moved on since the referendum.
Over 100,000 SNP members, 10,000 turn up to hear Nicola speak, 56/7 seats out of 59 in a GE.
All facts that the Unionist seem to have turned a blind eye to.
		
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Sorry Doon but onky about 55% have moved on. The other 45% are still holdjng on to an unsustainable ideology.
I think you fail to grasp that not everyone that voted SNP at the GE actually want independance. 
100,000 member is an impressive number, however even assuming that only 3m of the approximate 5.6m population are eligibke to vote, that represents a paltry 3% of the voting population. 3%!! Not so impressive. And certainly not the majority of Scottish people.
You keep talking of biased media and then link to Wings Over Scotland, a more pro independance media outlet I am yet to see. Pro anything usually tends to be bias, its just that bias in favour of someone's point of view is often disregarded as bias. A bit like positive discrimination in a way.

The independance race has been run, a winner emerged and its time you really DID move on. Politics will continue to be questionable by any party, still waiting to see where the oil tax would have gotten us at a barrel rate of $60 and why your wee Nicola remains so tight lipped on that particular front... Not every Scot is as impressed and enamoured by the Starch faced wee po-bag Doon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2015)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Colchester, Scottish politics is a total irrelevance to most  of us, except for Doon on here who thinks of another topic every time the last one peters out, to keep the subject alive !
		
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...and for as long as it remains a total irrelevance to most of the rUK the call for a further referendum on independence will remain and views such as expressed will be grist to the mill for the Nationalists.


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and for as long as it remains a total irrelevance to most of the rUK the call for a further referendum on independence will remain and views such as expressed will be grist to the mill for the Nationalists.
		
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I agree, and it does seem harsh to say that Scotland's politics is an irrelevance to those south of the border. But how many Scots care about what goes on in Bristol? By viewing either with a parochial view, rather than recognise the UK as one entity, does no one any favours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I agree, and it does seem harsh to say that Scotland's politics is an irrelevance to those south of the border. But how many Scots care about what goes on in Bristol? By viewing either with a parochial view, rather than recognise the UK as one entity, does no one any favours.
		
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It seems to me a pretty core part of the ongoing SNP independence narrative.  For as long as the rUK (English for arguments sake) electorate don't really care about what is going on in Scotland (as seems, to be the case) then why would/should their Westminster MPs?  And if their Westminster MPs don't care, and choose to ignore the SNP Westminster representation or refer to it in a dismissive or disparaging way - the conclusion (from the SNP perspective) is obvious.  And that isn't to wait for Labour in the UK to sort itself out - how long might we have to wait for that?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 29, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I agree, and it does seem harsh to say that Scotland's politics is an irrelevance to those south of the border. But how many Scots care about what goes on in Bristol? By viewing either with a parochial view, rather than recognise the UK as one entity, does no one any favours.
		
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Personally I think it's terrible that Mark Bradshaw has been sacked from the council cabinet for his opposition to selling off the docks. I certainly hope he manages to oust George Ferguson in next year's mayoral election.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2015)

Long Ashton seniors playing Castle Coombe the morra, should be a home banker.


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## c1973 (Jun 29, 2015)

It's like missing a bus, this thread; you see it disappearing into the distance thinking 'oh well, that's that then', and lo and behold.....another one turns up shortly afterwards.......same destination and quite often the same driver as well.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2015)

GreiginFife said:



			Sorry Doon but onky about 55% have moved on. The other 45% are still holdjng on to an unsustainable ideology.
I think you fail to grasp that not everyone that voted SNP at the GE actually want independance. 
100,000 member is an impressive number, however even assuming that only 3m of the approximate 5.6m population are eligibke to vote, that represents a paltry 3% of the voting population. 3%!! Not so impressive. And certainly not the majority of Scottish people.
You keep talking of biased media and then link to Wings Over Scotland, a more pro independance media outlet I am yet to see. Pro anything usually tends to be bias, its just that bias in favour of someone's point of view is often disregarded as bias. A bit like positive discrimination in a way.

The independance race has been run, a winner emerged and its time you really DID move on. Politics will continue to be questionable by any party, still waiting to see where the oil tax would have gotten us at a barrel rate of $60 and why your wee Nicola remains so tight lipped on that particular front... Not every Scot is as impressed and enamoured by the Starch faced wee po-bag Doon.
		
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Greig,
I watch Wings, The Independent and The Spectator for a ' balanced view' strange that eh.
What Scottish news media would you suggest I view to get an 'un-biased' view ?


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## GreiginFife (Jun 29, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Greig,
I watch Wings, The Independent and The Spectator for a ' balanced view' strange that eh.
What Scottish news media would you suggest I view to get an 'un-biased' view ?
		
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There is none more balanced than the rest, therein lies the problem with media. Most of your links go to Wings who are so nationalist its almost frightening havent seen many to Indy or Spectator. Your balanced view always seems to be to poke holes in the current government all with a very nationalist slant. Never once poking holes in SNP policy (such as unsustainable council tax freezes), seemingly holding them up as demi-gods to be revered (OK, exagerated slightly - but not much)
I have kept very quiet on all things poloitical and independence outside of my circle of friends and will now resume that stance. Good evening.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2015)

Neither of those courses are in Bristol :rofl:


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 29, 2015)

c1973 said:



			It's like missing a bus, this thread; you see it disappearing into the distance thinking 'oh well, that's that then', and lo and behold.....another one turns up shortly afterwards.......same destination and quite often the same driver as well. 


Click to expand...

PMSL!! :rofl: :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Neither of those courses are in Bristol :rofl:
		
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Quite near though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fast-moving-world-of-news/#more-72474

Is this not a good example of Wings reporting?
Six days of known lies reported by the Times.
And some folk say the SNP as 'sheep'.
Please read and understand.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fast-moving-world-of-news/#more-72474

Is this not a good example of Wings reporting?
Six days of known lies reported by the Times.
And some folk say the SNP as 'sheep'.
Please read and understand.
		
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Ok, so is this deliberate bias and manipulation in a bizarre and vile attempt to undermine the SNP or general incompetence or even just an IT error?

This (the wos) report is exactly the kind bias and stirring that many are so upset about. They spend their lives looking for anything, no matter how innocuous, that they can portray as anti-Scottish and twist it as far as they can. For no reason other than to forward their agenda.

And you moan about bias in the mainstream media! I think you are the one who needs to take a step back and apply some critical thought before posting such nonsense.

The worst thing is, occasionally they might actually raise a genuine concern but it is lost in amongst the paranoid rantings.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fast-moving-world-of-news/#more-72474

Is this not a good example of Wings reporting?
Six days of known lies reported by the Times.
And some folk say the SNP as 'sheep'.
Please read and understand.
		
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Wont keep me awake at night!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Wont keep me awake at night!
		
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I know that but imagine if it was an 'English' problem.

Say the Times reported that one of Andy Burnham's Labour leader election promises was to cut public income to the Queen.
The report was immediately shown up as a total lie but the story was re-reported for six days.
Would that get your attention.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2015)

OP is asking what next for Scottish politics and in particular the Labour Party in Scotland.  I don't know if it can quickly recover a good position in Scotland in the next few years; can it do well in the Scottish Elections next year; will it be in any state to take advantage of SNP mess-ups, broken promises, lies? Or does it have to break from Labour UK and start up on it's own as Scottish Labour to be an effective opposition to the SNP.  Will things ever be the same again in Scottish politics.  Or maybe it's the time for the Scottish Tories and the 1950s revisited.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

As things stand the 2016 elections will be a total romp for the SNP. It may be a situation where the only opposition party MSP's will be list members.

You only have to look at the Labour leadership to see how devoid of talent they are. I can't believe that this is the best they can gather.
An independent Scottish Tory party would be the only real opposition, perhaps in 2020.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As things stand the 2016 elections will be a total romp for the SNP. It may be a situation where the only opposition party MSP's will be list members.

You only have to look at the Labour leadership to see how devoid of talent they are. I can't believe that this is the best they can gather.
An independent Scottish Tory party would be the only real opposition, perhaps in 2020.
		
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As things stand - maybe - but the Holyrood elections aren't tomorrow.  Can Labour sort themselves in next 6-9months to take advantage of SNP weakness etc.  So even if they aren't able to get into a position to challenge and win seats on policy and candidates - can they win seats as the only alternative to the SNP?  Or is that role more likely to be filled by the Tories.


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## Spuddy (Jun 30, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As things stand - maybe - but the Holyrood elections aren't tomorrow.  Can Labour sort themselves in next 6-9months to take advantage of SNP weakness etc.  So even if they aren't able to get into a position to challenge and win seats on policy and candidates - can they win seats as the only alternative to the SNP?  Or is that role more likely to be filled by the Tories.
		
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If Kezia Dugdale becomes Scottish Labour Leader then no.  She won't change anything and refuses to believe that they've made any mistakes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

Spuddy said:



			If Kezia Dugdale becomes Scottish Labour Leader then no.  She won't change anything and refuses to believe that they've made any mistakes.
		
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If Dugdale is elected then I can see the Greens becoming the second party.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 30, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If Dugdale is elected then I can see the Greens becoming the second party.
		
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Now you're being silly. UKIP got more votes than the Greens in Scotland at the GE. 

Labour got more than 18 votes for every Green vote.


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## alexbrownmp (Jun 30, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



*Now you're being silly.* UKIP got more votes than the Greens in Scotland at the GE. 

Labour got more than 18 votes for every Green vote.
		
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*Now*.......? think again. The man sees many things in his world that mere mortals or those deemed to be _normal _cannot see. I wonder what the weather is like in bubble land.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Now you're being silly. UKIP got more votes than the Greens in Scotland at the GE. 

Labour got more than 18 votes for every Green vote.
		
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Are you aware of how the Scottish voting system works?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 30, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you aware of how the Scottish voting system works?
		
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I did actually look at it this morning. I still struggle to see how a party that got 1.3% of votes would suddenly become the second vote for everyone (I assume that you think most SNP voters will choose a green candidate with their second vote?).


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I did actually look at it this morning. I still struggle to see how a party that got 1.3% of votes would suddenly become the second vote for everyone (I assume that you think most SNP voters will choose a green candidate with their second vote?).
		
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Glad you looked at it, was that before or after your post 
It is a good system, FGS we even have a UKIP MSP.

The Greens have a good alliance with the SNP and some good SMP's
I naturally assume that nearly all of the SNP voters will give the Greens the second vote, but who do you think will get the second vote of the remaining Tory/Labour voters ?


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## Spuddy (Jun 30, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I did actually look at it this morning. I still struggle to see how a party that got 1.3% of votes would suddenly become the second vote for everyone (I assume that you think most SNP voters will choose a green candidate with their second vote?).
		
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An awful lot of them will.  It's playing the system to get as many pro independence MSPs back.  If the SNP repeat the sort of constituency result as they did in May then they'll likely have no (or very few) list MSPs even if all of their voters from the first vote chose them again in the 2nd vote.


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## Spuddy (Jun 30, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Glad you looked at it, was that before or after your post 
It is a good system, FGS we even have a UKIP MSP.

The Greens have a good alliance with the SNP and some good SMP's
I naturally assume that nearly all of the SNP voters will give the Greens the second vote, but who do you think will get the second vote of the remaining Tory/Labour voters ?
		
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There's no UKIP MSPs.  They did however grab one of the MEP spots last time out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			*Now*.......? think again. The man sees many things in his world that mere mortals or those deemed to be _normal _cannot see. I wonder what the weather is like in bubble land.
		
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I remember getting similar nasty abuse when, about 3 months ago, I predicted the SNP picking up between 35 to 40 Westminster seats.

Do you have to be so rude, I am only expressing an opinion.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

Spuddy said:



			There's no UKIP MSPs.  They did however grab one of the MEP spots last time out.
		
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Of course.....sorry forgot


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 30, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I remember getting similar nasty abuse when, about 3 months ago, I predicted the SNP picking up between 35 to 40 Westminster seats.

Do you have to be so rude, I am only expressing an opinion.
		
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Well, in fairness, you were well wide of the mark on that one.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Well, in fairness, you were well wide of the mark on that one..... 

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Ba boom:lol:


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 2, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Glad you looked at it, was that before or after your post 
It is a good system, FGS we even have a UKIP MSP.

The Greens have a good alliance with the SNP and some good SMP's
I naturally assume that nearly all of the SNP voters will give the Greens the second vote, but who do you think will get the second vote of the remaining Tory/Labour voters ?
		
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I will admit that I did look after my post, so I do apologise for misunderstanding it initially. I do still think, however, that there is a strong enough support of lib/lab/con that the green party won't become the 2nd party, even with the funky voting system.


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## Puter Putter (Jul 2, 2015)

The Scots currently have an over-representation in Parliament as there are far too many MP's per head of population north of the border, this is a historical anomaly. Enjoy it while it lasts imo.

No sane political party would get into bed with a party such as the SNP to then be dictated to by the representatives of such a relatively small proportion of the population. We are a democracy after all are we not?

The truth is few people south of the border really gives a monkeys... If a majority of Scots want to leave the UK then go, the majority of the English couldn't give a fig about Scotland remaining in the union - aside perhaps from the Royals.


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## alexbrownmp (Jul 2, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I remember getting similar nasty abuse when*, about 3 months ago, I predicted the SNP picking up between 35 to 40 Westminster seats.

Do you have to be so rude, I am only expressing an opinion.
		
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I dont think stating a fact is nasty abuse but people do get easily upset on here.

your 'prediction' I seem to remember was only a reflection of every newspaper and poll so trying to claim it was your prediction is a bit pathetic.

I am also only expressing an opinion.:smirk:


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## alexbrownmp (Jul 2, 2015)

Puter Putter said:



			The Scots currently have an over-representation in Parliament as there are far too many MP's per head of population north of the border, this is a historical anomaly. Enjoy it while it lasts imo.

No sane political party would get into bed with a party such as the SNP to then be dictated to by the representatives of such a relatively small proportion of the population. We are a democracy after all are we not?

The truth is few people south of the border really gives a monkeys... If a majority of Scots want to leave the UK then go, the majority of the English couldn't give a fig about Scotland remaining in the union - aside perhaps from the Royals.
		
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good post:thup:

The SNP I think are believing their own marketing hype about their importance in the UK


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			good post:thup:

The SNP I think are believing their own marketing hype about their importance in the UK
		
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I suspect that the SNP might have hyped-up that many in rUK don't give a fig about Scotland and used that as the basis for much of their independence argument - but your post suggests it wasn't hype on their part.  If the majority of the rUK don't give a fig about Scotland then why would their MPs?  And if these MPs hence don't pay attention to Scotland - as their electorate might demand - then the SNP would argue what point the Union - rUK doesn't care about us?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			I dont think stating a fact is nasty abuse but people do get easily upset on here.

your 'prediction' I seem to remember was only a reflection of every newspaper and poll so trying to claim it was your prediction is a bit pathetic.

I am also only expressing an opinion.:smirk:
		
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You have a poor memory as well as a rude manner them.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 2, 2015)

I keep hearing about SNP winning 56 of 59 seats but that is largely irrelevant as they actually won 56 of 650 seats.

Hence their relevance to UK politics should not be overstated.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			I keep hearing about SNP winning 56 of 59 seats but that is largely irrelevant as they actually won 56 of 650 seats.

Hence their relevance to UK politics should not be overstated.
		
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Can you remember what the Conservative majority was ?
The Tories will start fighting against each other soon, as they generally do, especially over Europe etc etc etc.
Just be patient and you will see.

PS... Just might be 57 seats later in the year.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2015)

That so many folk of the rUK seem to be quite happy stating that the SNP representation in Westminster is irrelevant - is grist to the SNP mill and seriously undermining of the Union.  And the more this is stated and the louder it is stated the more likely will be the call for another referendum on the grounds that the NO claims that the rUK loves Scotland and needs Scotland was a complete load of tosh.  Either Scottish representation in Westminster has value or it doesn't - it can't just have value if that representation is other than SNP.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 2, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you remember what the Conservative majority was ?
The Tories will start fighting against each other soon, as they generally do, especially over Europe etc etc etc.
Just be patient and you will see.

PS... Just might be 57 seats later in the year.
		
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Hope & pray as much as you like the SNP are never going to hold the balance of power at Westminster. 

Your wish for Scotland to have disproportionate influence sums up why the English electorate will never tolerate that.

Remember the population of Scotland is less than that of the English Midlands but many would never believe this to hear you and others of your ilk constantly bemoaning Scotland's lack of democratic representation.


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2015)

The best the SNP can achieve is 59 seats out of 650. Same as the Lib Dems at their best. Wow! But because of their wholly political slant north of the border, an absolute irrelevance in terms of change in W'minster.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That so many folk of the rUK seem to be quite happy stating that the SNP representation in Westminster is irrelevant - is grist to the SNP mill and seriously undermining of the Union.  And the more this is stated and the louder it is stated the more likely will be the call for another referendum on the grounds that the NO claims that the rUK loves Scotland and needs Scotland was a complete load of tosh.  Either Scottish representation in Westminster has value or it doesn't - it can't just have value if that representation is other than SNP.
		
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You build them up and then you knock them down.


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That so many folk of the rUK seem to be quite happy stating that the SNP representation in Westminster is irrelevant - is grist to the SNP mill and seriously undermining of the Union.  And the more this is stated and the louder it is stated the more likely will be the call for another referendum on the grounds that the NO claims that the rUK loves Scotland and needs Scotland was a complete load of tosh.  Either Scottish representation in Westminster has value or it doesn't - it can't just have value if that representation is other than SNP.
		
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Do you honestly think any govt with a working majority thinks highly enough of any other party? Are you that naive?

You're beginning to sound like a watered down version of Doon.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You build them up and then you knock them down.
		
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You could be right SR.
The way things are going I can see no Scottish MP's at Westminster within a decade.
The two English parties are making little effort to keep the UK together.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Do you honestly think any govt with a working majority thinks highly enough of any other party? Are you that naive?

You're beginning to sound like a watered down version of Doon.
		
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No I don't.  All I am saying is that if the Scottish electorate feel that their MPs and voice is marginalised or ignored by the rest of Westminster then that is simply grist for the SNP mill.  

And then today we read of Tory plans to push EVEL through before the summer recess.  You would have thought that as this is a very significant change to the way that Westminster works the Tories would have put considerable time aside to debate and consider the ramifications - instead it is done since 'David Cameron promised it' on the morning after the referendum so must be done.  Oh well. Just feels like a bit of gerrymandering.  Well rUK can feel pleased because with EVEL we'll never have an PM from a Scottish Westminster seat - hardly equitable status.  

Good on you Chris Grayling - watering the seeds of nationalist discontent and further increasing the likely of a Scottish split from the Union..


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			The best the SNP can achieve is 59 seats out of 650. Same as the Lib Dems at their best. Wow! But because of their wholly political slant north of the border, an absolute irrelevance in terms of change in W'minster.
		
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Yep, they can go as quick as they came.  Funny old game.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No I don't.  All I am saying is that if the Scottish electorate feel that their MPs and voice is marginalised or ignored by the rest of Westminster then that is simply grist for the SNP mill.  

And then today we read of Tory plans to push EVEL through before the summer recess.  You would have thought that as this is a very significant change to the way that Westminster works the Tories would have put considerable time aside to debate and consider the ramifications - instead it is done since 'David Cameron promised it' on the morning after the referendum so must be done.  Oh well. Just feels like a bit of gerrymandering.  Well rUK can feel pleased because with EVEL we'll never have an PM from a Scottish Westminster seat - hardly equitable status.  

Good on you Chris Grayling - watering the seeds of nationalist discontent and further increasing the likely of a Scottish split from the Union..
		
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There is an answer if they would like better representation.

Vote Conservative next time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			There is an answer if they would like better representation.

Vote Conservative next time.
		
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SR you really are a cad.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			There is an answer if they would like better representation.

Vote Conservative next time.
		
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Believe there will be a fair few to the west of London that will be wishing they hadn't last time...

As Cameron looks fair set to break one his pre-election "over my dead body" promises....


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## jp5 (Jul 4, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe there will be a fair few to the west of London that will be wishing they hadn't last time...

As Cameron looks fair set to break one his pre-election "over my dead body" promises....
		
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Dave's "no ifs, no buts" isn't doing very well for him!


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## chrisd (Jul 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			There is an answer if they would like better representation.

Vote Conservative next time.
		
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 This makes absolute sense, 50+ Scottish Conservatives would certainly carry a lot of sway on the decision making within the party - let's hope that then never suss that one !


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe there will be a fair few to the west of London that will be wishing they hadn't last time...

As Cameron looks fair set to break one his pre-election "over my dead body" promises....
		
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A lot of people live to the West of London.  Can you be more specific?


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## MegaSteve (Jul 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			A lot of people live to the West of London.  Can you be more specific?
		
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Those that voted for Zac and Boris for starters...


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 4, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Those that voted for Zac and Boris for starters...
		
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Assuming that you mean Zac Goldsmith hasn't he said that he will resign if Heathrow gets the new runway? Don't see what more he could do really.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 4, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Assuming that you mean Zac Goldsmith hasn't he said that he will resign if Heathrow gets the new runway? Don't see what more he could do really.
		
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Zac has his eyes set on being next Mayor of London for which, I suspect, he'll be seeking support of DaveCam who by then could well have said yes to third runway... That being so any further promises, he makes to Londoners, are quite likely to be falling on deaf ears...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Those that voted for Zac and Boris for starters...
		
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I live to the West of London but never voted for them.  130 miles west though


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2015)

There you go, told you it would not take long before they self combusted............and they haven't even started on Europe, superfastbroadrail, and immigration yet.
This will be fun....... 5 years hmmmmm.


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## Old Skier (Jul 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There you go, told you it would not take long before they self combusted............and they haven't even started on Europe, superfastbroadrail, and immigration yet.
This will be fun....... 5 years hmmmmm.
		
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Clutching at straws are we.  2 speak out against something that's not going to happen. How's this going to affect anything


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 4, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Clutching at straws are we.  2 speak out against something that's not going to happen. How's this going to affect anything
		
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Nope, just patiently waiting for history to repeat itself and watch Conservatives do what conservatives do. 
They just can't help themselves.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nope, just patiently waiting for history to repeat itself and watch Conservatives do what conservatives do. 
They just can't help themselves.
		
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And exactly what do the SNP do when Ms Sturgeon comes to realise exactly how impotent she is and will always be on the national and international stage.

I am afraid the Conservatives will be able to argue amongst themselves as much as they like since there is no viable alternative.

But, hey ho! you just heep on dreaming in your quaint little shortbread tin utopia.


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## Old Skier (Jul 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nope, just patiently waiting for history to repeat itself and watch Conservatives do what conservatives do. 
They just can't help themselves.
		
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And history shows it happens in all political parties the only guarantee is that there will never be a break away Scotish Nationalist Democratic Party.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 5, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			And history shows it happens in all political parties the only guarantee is that there will never be a break away Scotish Nationalist Democratic Party.
		
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Well as the SNP is called the Scottish National Party, you are probably correct.


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well as the SNP is called the Scottish National Party, you are probably correct.

Click to expand...

But all parties split eventually when they start blaming some in the party of their demise so was suggesting that the breakaway party would not have the word Democratic in it as its not a nationalisy trait.


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## alexbrownmp (Jul 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There you go, told you it would not take long before they self combusted............and they haven't even started on Europe, superfastbroadrail, and immigration yet.
This will be fun....... 5 years hmmmmm.
		
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You do your fellow countrymen no good with these constant postings that emminate so much hidden hate.
We get it, you don't like the government and you think the sun shines out the snp and they never lie.
if you posted facts and sensible discussions I could understand but what you post mostly embarrasses yourself.


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## c1973 (Jul 5, 2015)

And meanwhile up here the NHS careers from one shambles to another......Glasgow, Perth, Livingston.........

John Swinney critical of the handling (by Shona Roberston) the health minister.....infighting? 
Surely not, not in the all singing all dancing, progressive snp. 


But as long as the sheep understand that Tory is bad, snp is good and everyone in the UK is anti Scottish, things are just tickety boo. &#128546;



I note the insinuation of racism through the week of the UK government by an snp MP has been swept under the carpet........imagine the outcry if the roles were reversed.


Baaaa baaa


&#128512;


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			You do your fellow countrymen no good with these constant postings that emminate so much hidden hate.
We get it, you don't like the government and you think the sun shines out the snp and they never lie.
if you posted facts and sensible discussions I could understand but what you post mostly embarrasses yourself.
		
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And while I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment, your own inability to spell emanate, or even use it correctly, does your own argument no favours! 

I'd also question whether someone can suggest that somebody's action has embarrassed them - surely that's for the individual them to decide! 

I'm sure there are many of DfT's 'fellow countrymen' that have similar feelings to his - and also many that don't! But I fail to see what 'no good' the postings are doing! Can you clarify what damage, or whatever you mean by 'no good', is being done?

With respect to the post you quoted...In this instance, I'm actually inclined to agree with DfT!


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## c1973 (Jul 5, 2015)

Edit to above. Should be Robinson.   Bloody spell check! &#128533;


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 5, 2015)

Just the right sort of chappy you want on the Scottish Affairs Committee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope

Talk about extracting the urine:angry:


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			You do your fellow countrymen no good with these constant postings that emminate so much hidden hate.
We get it, you don't like the government and you think the sun shines out the snp and they never lie.
if you posted facts and sensible discussions I could understand but what you post mostly embarrasses yourself.
		
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Now that is as mild a understatement as I've ever read on here. The U-rating forbids me to posty thoughts on Doon's rabid, thinly vieled racism hidden behind progressive politics, not forgetting his oft trotted out "I've got an English wife and daughter." A poor excuse for a tolerant Scot


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just the right sort of chappy you want on the Scottish Affairs Committee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope

Talk about extracting the urine:angry:
		
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Well he should be a fair match for your own bile and intolerance.


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## alexbrownmp (Jul 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			And while I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment, your own inability to spell emanate, or even use it correctly, does your own argument no favours! 

I'd also question whether someone can suggest that somebody's action has embarrassed them - surely that's for the individual them to decide! 

I'm sure there are many of DfT's 'fellow countrymen' that have similar feelings to his - and also many that don't! But I fail to see what 'no good' the postings are doing! Can you clarify what damage, or whatever you mean by 'no good', is being done?

With respect to the post you quoted...In this instance, I'm actually inclined to agree with DfT! 

Click to expand...

Is this a serious post?

auto and spell check does cause issues but I'm spot on with the use.

you on the other hand appear to be the forum stalwart for mixing the silage with a stick. 

The quoted post post is in regard to his general postings but I had to quote a singular post. You of course knew that yet chose to pretend you didn't, or maybe you are actually very dim in which case I apologise.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			And while I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment, your own inability to spell emanate, or even use it correctly, does your own argument no favours! 

I'd also question whether someone can suggest that somebody's action has embarrassed them - surely that's for the individual them to decide! 

I'm sure there are many of DfT's 'fellow countrymen' that have similar feelings to his - and also many that don't! But I fail to see what 'no good' the postings are doing! Can you clarify what damage, or whatever you mean by 'no good', is being done?

With respect to the post you quoted...In this instance, I'm actually inclined to agree with DfT! 

Click to expand...

From your final comment I assume that, like the aforesaid DfT, you think the Conservative Party is the only one arguing amongst themselves.

If so then you are overlooking the argument within the Labour Party between Old & New, an argument that has simmered since Blair replaced Smith.

Also the greatest opposition to the pro-Europe vote in 1975 came from the Left and many of those attitudes and suspicions still linger.

My question re: the SNP and the realisation of its impotence remains valid.

However, I do not expect an answer to this from DfT as it does not fit with his tartan-hued version of utopia.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 5, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Now that is as mild a understatement as I've ever read on here. The U-rating forbids me to posty thoughts on Doon's rabid, thinly vieled racism hidden behind progressive politics, not forgetting his oft trotted out "I've got an English wife and daughter." A poor excuse for a tolerant Scot
		
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Just because I don't like the Tories and support the SNP I am branded a racist....aye right.
My views are fairly mild compared to my wife's.:lol:
In your mind does that make her a racist against her own 'race'.


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## M1ke (Jul 5, 2015)

A general rule of thumb on forums is to never discuss Religion and Politics. This thread has descended into an embarrassing series of insults which should really be brought to an end.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just because I don't like the Tories and support the SNP I am branded a racist....aye right.
My views are fairly mild compared to my wife's.:lol:
In your mind does that make her a racist against her own 'race'.
		
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Oh! the irony. A response that, yet again, makes reference to your wife, exactly as quoted by Hobbit.

Your posts are negative, repetitive, bigoted, one-eyed and tiresome. but if it makes you happy, what the heck! carry on.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			From your final comment I assume that, like the aforesaid DfT, you think the Conservative Party is the only one arguing amongst themselves.
		
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By no means at all! They all do it, just some more quickly and/or overtly than others!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 5, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			From your final comment I assume that, like the aforesaid DfT, you think the Conservative Party is the only one arguing amongst themselves.

If so then you are overlooking the argument within the Labour Party between Old & New, an argument that has simmered since Blair replaced Smith.

Also the greatest opposition to the pro-Europe vote in 1975 came from the Left and many of those attitudes and suspicions still linger.

My question re: the SNP and the realisation of its impotence remains valid.

However, I do not expect an answer to this from DfT as it does not fit with his tartan-hued version of utopia.
		
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You must realise that if and when the Tories implode the 56/7 SNP votes could be quite crucial to the management of the UK.

Hence my OP
I really do think that the prospective Labour leaders are missing a trick by failing to see some form of working alliance with the the third party.
Lord Bragg stated today that they will be in the wilderness for many years.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You must realise that if and when the Tories implode the 56/7 SNP votes could be quite crucial to the management of the UK.

Hence my OP
I really do think that the prospective Labour leaders are missing a trick by failing to see some form of working alliance with the the third party.
Lord Bragg stated today that they will be in the wilderness for many years.
		
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Firstly there is no event in history to suggest The Conservative Party will implode. They were more divided in 1990 yet still pulled together to win the'92 General Election.

Secondly and as stated at the time of the last election, any party entering into an agreement with the SNP would, in England, be signing their own political death warrant.

Have you now realised that a party with only 56 seats out of 650 has no power and, therefore, you want an alliance with Labour in the hope of securing some influence at Westminster?


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You must realise that if and when the Tories implode.....
		
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Not going to happen!

Notwithstanding that the only significant issue that causes friction in the Conservatives is Europe - for which the planned referendum is actually, imo, a moderating influence - the tiny majority they have is much more likely to tend to keep them in line than promote rebellion.

There will, of course, be lots of rumblings from them because that is part of their nature - and something that the media latch onto!



alexbrownmp said:



			...
The quoted post post is in regard to his general postings but I had to quote a singular post. You of course knew that yet chose to pretend you didn't...
		
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Both of these statements are simply wrong!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2015)

Of course looks like we're going to be stuck with a Tory government until Kingdom come now that EVEL will make it very difficult indeed for the Labour Party to ever have a majority in Westminster.  

But hold on - if miracles did happen and Labour and SNP swapped electoral positions in Scotland sometime down the line - and Labour managed a decent recovery in England then the Labour Party could well find themselves with a majority and in government in Westminster.  But if the Labour majority was less than 59 (number of Scottish Westminster MPs) then with EVEL in place and no votes for Scottish MPs on many Westminster matters, a Labour government could be defeated left, right and centre by the opposition.  Now that would be a bit of a Westminster mess.  But hey - Davie promised on EVEL and what Davie promises...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Of course looks like we're going to be stuck with a Tory government until Kingdom come now* that EVEL will make it very difficult indeed for the Labour Party to ever have a majority in Westminster.  

But hold on - if miracles did happen and Labour and SNP swapped electoral positions in Scotland sometime down the line - and Labour managed a decent recovery in England then the Labour Party could well find themselves with a majority and in government in Westminster.  But if the Labour majority was less than 59 (number of Scottish Westminster MPs) then with EVEL in place and no votes for Scottish MPs on many Westminster matters, a Labour government could be defeated left, right and centre by the opposition.  Now that would be a bit of a Westminster mess.  But hey - Davie promised on EVEL and what Davie promises...
		
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Many people are happy with that projection.


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## DCB (Jul 6, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You must realise that if and when the Tories implode the 56/7 SNP votes could be quite crucial to the management of the UK.
		
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What's is this 56/7 all about, thought it was only 56 seats they won ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 6, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course looks like we're going to be stuck with a Tory government until Kingdom come now that EVEL will make it very difficult indeed for the Labour Party to ever have a majority in Westminster.  

But hold on - if miracles did happen and Labour and SNP swapped electoral positions in Scotland sometime down the line - and Labour managed a decent recovery in England then the Labour Party could well find themselves with a majority and in government in Westminster.  But if the Labour majority was less than 59 (number of Scottish Westminster MPs) then with EVEL in place and no votes for Scottish MPs on many Westminster matters, a Labour government could be defeated left, right and centre by the opposition.  Now that would be a bit of a Westminster mess.  But hey - Davie promised on EVEL and what Davie promises...
		
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From your previous comments it is clear that you are happy with devolved powers and, perhaps even independence . for Scotland and yet you would deny similar self-determination to the English electorate.

Remember it was a Labour politician, Tam Dalyell, who, at the time of devolution, raised the "West Lothian" question and pointed out the inherent unfairness that devolved powers would give rise to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 6, 2015)

DCB said:



			What's is this 56/7 all about, thought it was only 56 seats they won ?
		
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Carmichael's seat is being disputed by his constituents due to the lies he told before the election and the failure of the then government to investigate it before the vote.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 6, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			From your previous comments it is clear that you are happy with devolved powers and, perhaps even independence . for Scotland and yet you would deny similar self-determination to the English electorate.

Remember it was a Labour politician, Tam Dalyell, who, at the time of devolution, raised the "West Lothian" question and pointed out the inherent unfairness that devolved powers would give rise to.
		
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Problem is that if the current parliament fail to deliver on 'The Vow' but deliver on EVEL we then have the West Lothian question, and it's inherent unfairness in total reverse.


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 6, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Problem is that if the current parliament fail to deliver on 'The Vow' but deliver on EVEL we then have the West Lothian question, and it's inherent unfairness in total reverse.
		
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How do you work that out? Any powers that aren't devolved won't be subject to EVEL, will they?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2015)

My point is simply that with EVEL you can have a Labour government as they have the majority of MPs, but a government that could and probably would be defeated whenever it tried to implement key 'England-Only' legislation (whoever decides what that is and upon what criteria - does anyone actually know?).  Doesn't that make a nonsense of a Westminster government if the party in government with a majority can't enact key policies.  Do they have a majority or not?  Sometimes they do - sometimes they don't.

So a majority Labour government wants to increase foreign aid budget (which is supported by it's Scottish MPs) by cutting the education budget.  It can do the former as it isn't devolved and so has the necessary majority, but may not be able to do the latter as education *is *devolved and so it might not have a majority to get it through.  You'll have an minority opposition determining what aspects of government policy can be implemented. Regardless of the detail - that sort of scenario is a bit of a nonsense.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 6, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is simply that with EVEL you can have a Labour government as they have the majority of MPs, but a government that could and probably would be defeated whenever it tried to implement key 'England-Only' legislation (whoever decides what that is and upon what criteria - does anyone actually know?).  Doesn't that make a nonsense of a Westminster government if the party in government with a majority can't enact key policies.  Do they have a majority or not?  Sometimes they do - sometimes they don't.

So a majority Labour government wants to increase foreign aid budget (which is supported by it's Scottish MPs) by cutting the education budget.  It can do the former as it isn't devolved and so has the necessary majority, but may not be able to do the latter as education *is *devolved and so it might not have a majority to get it through.  You'll have an minority opposition determining what aspects of government policy can be implemented. Regardless of the detail - that sort of scenario is a bit of a nonsense.
		
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So what that sounds to me, is that devolved powers don't work. May as well give all powers back to Westminster!

I don't see how you can be a fan of devolved powers for Scotland, but not for England? Your point about a minority opposition deciding what the government can do, is no different to having a different party in power in the Scottish parliament to the Uk Gov. Why should a Labour gov (in your example) be able to cut the education for only England, and not for Scotland?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So what that sounds to me, is that devolved powers don't work. May as well give all powers back to Westminster!

I don't see how you can be a fan of devolved powers for Scotland, but not for England? Your point about a minority opposition deciding what the government can do, is no different to having a different party in power in the Scottish parliament to the Uk Gov. Why should a Labour gov (in your example) be able to cut the education for only England, and not for Scotland?
		
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I'm not against federalism and a devolved government for England - but trying to enact it in the context of a Westminster parliament just seems to be asking for trouble and problems.  The Scottish electorate was assured that Scotland was a valued part of the Union and that Scotland's voice was stronger by remaining in the Union and having their voice heard through Westminster.  Well it might be heard but who is going to be listening to those 59 tier-2 not-quite Westminster Scottish MPs.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 6, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not against federalism and a devolved government for England - but trying to enact it in the context of a Westminster parliament just seems to be asking for trouble and problems.  The Scottish electorate was assured that Scotland was a valued part of the Union and that Scotland's voice was stronger by remaining in the Union and having their voice heard through Westminster.  Well it might be heard but who is going to be listening to those 59 tier-2 not-quite Westminster Scottish MPs.
		
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But their voice would still be heard, on matters that concern them. If it has nothing to do with them, why do they want a say on it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So what that sounds to me, is that devolved powers don't work. May as well give all powers back to Westminster!

I don't see how you can be a fan of devolved powers for Scotland, but not for England? Your point about a minority opposition deciding what the government can do, is no different to having a different party in power in the Scottish parliament to the Uk Gov. Why should a Labour gov (in your example) be able to cut the education for only England, and not for Scotland?
		
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With EVEL - a Westminster Labour government with a majority that relies on Scottish MPs wouldn't be able to cut education in England unless it had support from other rUK parties.  But note that as an example, Westminster cutting education spending in England will have a knock-on effect on the block grant allocated to Scotland under Barnett - so much reason for Scottish MPs to have a vote?


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 6, 2015)

The whole EVEL thing is, unfortunately, the wrong solution for a real issue.

Devolution around the UK is already an inconsistent mess but limiting the voice of some MPs in the UK parliament in some ill-conceived attempt at English devolution is messy and divisive.

IMO if we must have devolution, there should be Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish assemblies with identical powers and a Westminster parliament to handle all non-devolved matters. Ideally it'd be the same MPs from the devolved assemblies that trapped up to Westminster two days a week (or whatever) for UK business rather than taxpayers stumping up for double the number of politicians as we do now...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The whole EVEL thing is, unfortunately, the wrong solution for a real issue.

Devolution around the UK is already an inconsistent mess but limiting the voice of some MPs in the UK parliament in some ill-conceived attempt at English devolution is messy and divisive.

IMO if we must have devolution, there should be Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish assemblies with identical powers and a Westminster parliament to handle all non-devolved matters. Ideally it'd be the same MPs from the devolved assemblies that trapped up to Westminster two days a week (or whatever) for UK business rather than taxpayers stumping up for double the number of politicians as we do now...
		
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Absolutely.  EVEL in Westminster is really not clever.  Create an English Parliament - maybe using a revamped HoC - with UK-wide non-devolved powers being dealt with in a second chamber that uses the HoL (would mean dumping the Lords but hey-ho)


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 6, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The whole EVEL thing is, unfortunately, the wrong solution for a real issue.

Devolution around the UK is already an inconsistent mess but limiting the voice of some MPs in the UK parliament in some ill-conceived attempt at English devolution is messy and divisive.

IMO if we must have devolution, there should be Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish assemblies with identical powers and a Westminster parliament to handle all non-devolved matters. Ideally it'd be the same MPs from the devolved assemblies that trapped up to Westminster two days a week (or whatever) for UK business rather than taxpayers stumping up for double the number of politicians as we do now...
		
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Totally agree with that.

The system is in a mucking fuddle and needs someone with a bit of vision to sort.
Perhaps Prince Charles should step in.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 6, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely.  EVEL in Westminster is really not clever.  Create an English Parliament - maybe using a revamped HoC - with UK-wide non-devolved powers being dealt with in a second chamber that uses the HoL (would mean dumping the Lords but hey-ho)
		
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But how does that resolve your perceived nightmare.

Although unlikely a future UK Labour administration could find itself overruled on English issues by a Conservative led English Parliament.

This is already the case for the current UK Parliament and Scottish legislation.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			But how does that resolve your perceived nightmare.

Although unlikely a future UK Labour administration could find itself overruled on English issues by a Conservative led English Parliament.

This is already the case for the current UK Parliament and Scottish legislation.
		
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That's the entire purpose of Devolution - local laws/rules for local conditions. All within the funding constraints of course!

What can't happen, in a devolved relationship, is for the UK Parliament to over-rule the 'devolved' one - except in emergency/crisis circumstances. That would not be devolution to me!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 6, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			That's the entire purpose of Devolution - local laws/rules for local conditions. All within the funding constraints of course!

What can't happen, in a devolved relationship, is for the UK Parliament to over-rule the 'devolved' one - except in emergency/crisis circumstances. That would not be devolution to me!
		
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Precisely! And I don't have a problem with that.

However, it does seem to bother SilH in the case of "English" legislation and a Labour administration which, like many in the past was the minority party in England.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2015)

Cameron and the Tory party seem to be sleepwalking into a constitutional nightmare with his proposed EVEL plans.
Can you imagine the stooshie of a Westminster English Affairs committee with a majority of Scots/Welsh and NI MP's.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2015)

Grayling being slaughtered by all the political parties in the commons.
They seem to be lining up to shoot down this shoddy legislation. 
I would be amazed if it goes through against all this general opposition.

Cameron accused of trying to break up the Union by Labour and Tory MP's.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Grayling being slaughtered by all the political parties in the commons.
They seem to be lining up to shoot down this shoddy legislation. 
I would be amazed if it goes through against all this general opposition.

Cameron accused of trying to break up the Union by Labour and Tory MP's.
		
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Any evidence to support your latest ludicrous claim?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Any evidence to support your latest ludicrous claim?
		
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Debate is on BBC Parliament at the moment - watch and draw own conclusions on whether or not DfT is right.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 7, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Debate is on BBC Parliament at the moment - watch and draw own conclusions on whether or not DfT is right.
		
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Entirely predictable comments from various Opposition MP's and a rogue Tory.

Hardly likely to bring about the collapse of this particular piece of long overdue legislation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Any evidence to support your latest ludicrous claim?
		
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BBC Politics Live from the Commons.:lol:

By the timing of your posts I take it you missed it.
Awaiting apology!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC Politics Live from the Commons.:lol:

By the timing of your posts I take it you missed it.
Awaiting apology!
		
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See above!

Usual suspects speaking usual guff.

Hardly a "general level of opposition" likely to derail the legislation. Hence your claim is ludicrous and mere wishful thinking (again!).


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			See above!

Usual suspects speaking usual guff.

Hardly a "general level of opposition" likely to derail the legislation. Hence your claim is ludicrous and mere wishful thinking (again!).
		
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Watched last 10 mins then.........there was a lot of anger in the chamber against the government legislation from all...... repeat all  parties inc the one independent MP.
If you and your ilk think this is good legislation then god help us.
300 years of British democracy ending due to a Tory panic measure.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Watched last 10 mins then.........there was a lot of anger in the chamber against the government legislation from all...... repeat all  parties inc the one independent MP.
If you and your ilk think this is good legislation then god help us.
300 years of British democracy ending due to a Tory panic measure.
		
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All parties? How many of the majority party were opposed to the proposed legislation.

And am I take it that you are happy for Carmichael to be so eloquent on this matter when only recently you were welcoming moves by his constituents to have him removed.

Not so much a panic measure as a measure to placate English voters who, since devolution (a Labour panic measure?), have felt inequitably treated.

In any event what is your problem? If this measure was to lead to the break up of the Union it would be fulfilling the wish of the SNP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			In any event what is your problem? If this measure was to lead to the break up of the Union it would be fulfilling the wish of the SNP.
		
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As well as Cameron and the anti Unionist supporters within the Tory Party.
What a strange mix, it almost appears that they are working in tandem


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Watched last 10 mins then.........there was a lot of anger in the chamber against the government legislation from all...... repeat all  parties inc the one independent MP.
If you and your ilk think this is good legislation then god help us.
300 years of British democracy ending due to a Tory panic measure.
		
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But we haven't had devolution in the UK for 300 years.  I fail to understand how anyone cannot see that it's only fair that England gets the same devolved powers over it's local affairs the same as the rest of the UK.   Surely even you must concede this?


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## shagster (Jul 8, 2015)

why for England? when the population is massive compared with Scotland etc.
not sure of Scots population, but their government should cover the majority view, but in England, why do we want the south east telling the north west or east Anglia what to do and vice versa.
i live nearer to France than Birmingham, so should France have a say in my local politics?
we either except Westminster rule, or have regional authorities, not an English parliament like several are after
i find it strange that so many are against the European union, yet want to keep the British union

shagster


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## chrisd (Jul 8, 2015)

shagster said:



			why for England? when the population is massive compared with Scotland etc.
not sure of Scots population, but their government should cover the majority view, but in England, why do we want the south east telling the north west or east Anglia what to do and vice versa.
i live nearer to France than Birmingham, so should France have a say in my local politics?
we either except Westminster rule, or have regional authorities, not an English parliament like several are after
i find it strange that so many are against the European union, yet want to keep the British union

shagster
		
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I live much nearer France than you, being 5 miles from the Channel Tunnel and the flippin French do seem to control this corner of the country - given we can't travel any where at the moment because, once again, the failure of the French to sort out the migrant issue means the roads here are gridlocked because of operation stack! Last week it was ferry workers next week it'll probably be onion sellers causing the same problem!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2015)

shagster said:



			why for England? when the population is massive compared with Scotland etc.
not sure of Scots population, but their government should cover the majority view, but in England, why do we want the south east telling the north west or east Anglia what to do and vice versa.
i live nearer to France than Birmingham, so should France have a say in my local politics?
we either except Westminster rule, or have regional authorities, not an English parliament like several are after
i find it strange that so many are against the European union, yet want to keep the British union

shagster
		
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So you believe the Scottish Parliament, Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies should be closed down?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			But we haven't had devolution in the UK for 300 years.  I fail to understand how anyone cannot see that it's only fair that England gets the same devolved powers over it's local affairs the same as the rest of the UK.   Surely even you must concede this?
		
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I do not think you would find many Scots who would not agree to an English Parliament, as you say it is only fair.
Problem is Cameron is doing a BOGOF and trying to grow an English Parliament within the UK parliament with desperately poor legislation.
It is so poor that it is possible for English Tory MPs to make the Scottish Bill an English only matter. How absurd is that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2015)

More 'ludicrous' points.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2015/07/tories-nervous-of-evel-rebellion/


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2015)

Its time to bin all devolved Parliaments/Assembleys and all the little sub organisations trying to get in on the bandwagon.  All they have managed so far is to increase the cost of running the UK and a lot of infighting.  It was all cobbled together to allow for more jobs for the boys including a massive increase in public sector workers.  The sheer cost outways the benifits.

We now have the NHS wanting things done at local level. Cornwall cannot even manage its affairs on a county level so god knows what would happen when local politicians and public sector workers get control of more funding - all it will result in is even more jobs and less money to spend on the work in hand.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			But we haven't had devolution in the UK for 300 years.  I fail to understand how anyone cannot see that it's only fair that England gets the same devolved powers over it's local affairs the same as the rest of the UK.   Surely even you must concede this?
		
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Then set up a separate devolved parliament.  It's a nonsense trying to shoehorn one into a UK Parliament through procedural means.  Surely setting up of a devolved English Parliament is a pretty darned important change to the way UK government operates and I struggle to see how so many think it's OK to squeeze such a huge change in on the back of two weeks of debate with no real consultation or serious examination and consideration of what this change actually means in the long run and so we can understand what the long term constitutional issues and impact.  For instance Do the voters of the UK want a Federal UK?  Is EVEL the measure that makes a federal UK an inevitability?  If not then why not, and what measures will be put in place to reassure voters that it isn't?

This surely can't just be something that has to be done _without delay_ because Cameron said on the morning of the 19th September that it would be done - something he said to appease English voters.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Its time to bin all devolved Parliaments/Assembleys and all the little sub organisations trying to get in on the bandwagon.  All they have managed so far is to increase the cost of running the UK and a lot of infighting.  It was all cobbled together to allow for more jobs for the boys including a massive increase in public sector workers.  The sheer cost outways the benifits.

We now have the NHS wanting things done at local level. Cornwall cannot even manage its affairs on a county level so god knows what would happen when local politicians and public sector workers get control of more funding - all it will result in is even more jobs and less money to spend on the work in hand.
		
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One of they key recommendations of the Smith commission on further devolution for Scotland is to remove the ability of Westminster to 'terminate' Scottish devolved government.


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One of they key recommendations of the Smith commission on further devolution for Scotland is to remove the ability of Westminster to 'terminate' Scottish devolved government.
		
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I'm not just on about Scotland, the lot need to go. We keep getting promised that the size of the power base will go down but along with all these devolved MPs, EMPs, MPs, devolved councils not to mention the fact that they all need staff, the wage increase has nullified any advantages that may have been gained.


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One of they key recommendations of the Smith commission on further devolution for Scotland is to remove the ability of Westminster to 'terminate' Scottish devolved government.
		
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As the commission has a fair few people who could lose their jobs I wouldn't expect them to come to any other conclusion. Why do you think the body that overseas MPs salaries and claims is made up of ex politicians and civil servants.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			As the commission has a fair few people who could lose their jobs I wouldn't expect them to come to any other conclusion. Why do you think the body that overseas MPs salaries and claims is made up of ex politicians and civil servants.
		
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Point is that when the 'additional powers' bill is eventually enacted, Westminster won't be able to disband the Holyrood parliament - and even the current UK government wouldn't dare take that out of the legislation.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2015)

The political classes will always put their needs first while the hoi polloi have to make do with what's left...

We need less governance not flippin' more ...


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			The political classes will always put their needs first while the hoi polloi have to make do with what's left...

We need less governance not flippin' more ...
		
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Only the political classes and civil servants/some public sector workers would disagree IMHO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2015)

And so I read this morning that the decision/vote on EVEL legislation has been put off until September as up to 20 Tory MPs were opposed to it.  Of course the legislation is not being rewritten 'in any shape or form' - oh no - it's being re-drafted.


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