# Range Finders on Tour ?



## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

How long do you think it will be until they are allowed to be used on the ET ?

They have been used on the Euro Pro and understand that have gone down well and helped with pace of play 

Is the next step the challenge tour to trial and then onto the main tours ? 

Is it a good idea and would they speed up play instead of caddies and pro consulting yardage books and pacing out until markers ?


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 21, 2015)

This would be so sensible.  Must save time if it stops the caddies fannying around trying to find the distance to the nearest centimetre from their yardage books.


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## ADB (Nov 21, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			This would be so sensible.  Must save time if it stops the caddies fannying around trying to find the distance to the nearest centimetre from their yardage books.
		
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It certainly didn't help with the pace of play from what I saw of the Walker Cup.


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## ger147 (Nov 21, 2015)

Would deffo be a sensible move IMO as it's simply a device to measure a distance that is accurately calculated from endless other measurements and yardage books compiled using these devices prior to the round. In other words, it's info they already have so I see this as a quicker way to get the distance info they need to decide what shot they want to play next.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 21, 2015)

Guys on tour won't hit a shot without knowing the exact yardage so its a no brainer. Should in theory speed things up hugely but the players will just faff about with an even longer pre shot routine.


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 21, 2015)

i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .


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## BTatHome (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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we've managed without many things, but things getter better and progression means things change for the better.

We should embrace change rather than living in the dark ages like many golf clubs do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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So the reason you want them banned is because we managed without them before ?

Shall we ban graphite shafts ?

Metal Woods ?

Big Headed Drivers ?

Plastic spikes

Spikeless shoes

Many many things we managed without before - shall they all be banned as well ?


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## Qwerty (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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I agree, although I do use one 

As for the tour.. The slow players will still be slow, discussing wind speed and direction, the angle to the pin, general strategy etc.Regardless of the fact they've got the exact yardage.


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the reason you want them banned is because we managed without them before ?

Shall we ban graphite shafts ? i like a bit of lead in my pencil

Metal Woods ?     is there such a thing

Big Headed Drivers ?plenty of them on this site 

Plastic spikes   been around for years ,tee pegs arent they

Spikeless shoes  i wear them every day in normal life ,so not really new are they.

Many many things we managed without before - shall they all be banned as well ?
		
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and not one of the above helps with course management like a RF.
are people unable to judge if they need a seven iron or a six iron for a specific shot ,has mankinds eyesight deteriorated that much 
 no course it hasnt ,but using range finders is in my opinion not golf .
you have your opinion .i dont agree with it .live with it.


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## Three (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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Lol. 

When you say "we managed" , do you mean that actually we played for a long time just by guesswork,  and frankly didn't manage too well on courses we didn't know? 

Tour caddies used to use string, wheeled distance measures etc etc before lasers came in, so the top players have had access to accurate measurements for ages. 

Controlling distance is a major skill, yardage books are made using lasers, so why not allow them? 

GPS should be banned, I believe we should only be able to measure what we can see from where we are standing, eg not over trees.


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## fundy (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			and not one of the above helps with course management like a RF.
are people unable to judge if they need a seven iron or a six iron for a specific shot ,has mankinds eyesight deteriorated that much 
 no course it hasnt ,but using range finders is in my opinion not golf .
you have your opinion .i dont agree with it .live with it.
		
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so its ok to use technology to make it easier to hit the shot but not to know how far to hit it? Surely golf is about hitting the shot not guessing how far it is?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			and not one of the above helps with course management like a RF.
are people unable to judge if they need a seven iron or a six iron for a specific shot ,has mankinds eyesight deteriorated that much 
 no course it hasnt ,but using range finders is in my opinion not golf .
you have your opinion .i dont agree with it .live with it.
		
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Blimey no need to be like that 

Would suggest those things I mentioned actually are more damaging because they help the person actually hit the ball better - is that not more about golf than just judging distances - you have no issues with improvements in technology helping someone actually hit the ball ?

So would you want rid of yardage markers and course planners as well - all which help with course management ? Maybe get rid of the hole map on tees ?


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 21, 2015)

Phil i just think that RF`s have taken away that little bit of what makes a golfer,having everything at your fingertips is just ,to my  mind not golf ,where is the challenge of looking at a shot and thinking about the club to be used rather than a device telling you its 150 to the centre and you hit your 7 iron 150 ,so its taking away some of the skill involved in playing the shot.
 the thing that makes me laugh with these things ,is when a club member who has played his own course for countless years uses one ,wtf ,dont people learn their own course without the RF to say its a certain distance .
im sure you know every blade of grass on your track but still use the bloody thing. 
on an away track then maybe they will prove useful ,but i [maybe im old school]prefer to look at my shot and choose a club ,if im wrong so be it.i dont lose sweat over it ,nor do i when my pp takes out his RF and fires the same club that i just hit .
we could argue the toss about this till the cows come home ,but you will not be swayed as wont i .
just the way it is .you like em ,i dont end of.


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## Qwerty (Nov 21, 2015)

It isn't a massive deal but personally I feel that rangefinders do take a little enjoyment from the game. 
I'd get far more satisfaction stiffing a 5 iron to 2ft having used a little local Knowledge rather than a rangefinder. 
I enjoy the challenge of the game and I think knowing and learning your home course is part of that.

Based on this I really can't understand why anyone would want to use Aimpoint regardless of how effective it is.

I play a lot of Moorland courses with very undulating greens and I get a hell of a lot of enjoyment from lagging a lengthy putt up close.  I just don't understand anyone that would want to lose that.

Wheres the enjoyment in a system that supposedly tells you the line dependant on green speed??  You might as well just roll a ball towards the hole before making the putt.

Maybe for some Winning is the enjoyment.


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## garyinderry (Nov 21, 2015)

Also not a massive fan of GPS or range finders.   came to England a few years ago to find everyone using one and felt at a disadvantage.


I don't look at them much on bounce games.  Might go 5 holes at a time without looking at it.  It regularly tells me I am 639 yards from the hole.   4 club comp last week was a perfect excuse not to even bother with it.

Tend to use them in comps as I want to do my best so use the yardage as its clipped to my bag. I may as well. Everyone else is.



Certainly worth a few shots on average over a round.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 21, 2015)

We should go back to leather and feather balls and use young boys to pace out yardages.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			Phil i just think that RF`s have taken away that little bit of what makes a golfer,having everything at your fingertips is just ,to my  mind not golf ,where is the challenge of looking at a shot and thinking about the club to be used rather than a device telling you its 150 to the centre and you hit your 7 iron 150 ,so its taking away some of the skill involved in playing the shot.
 the thing that makes me laugh with these things ,is when a club member who has played his own course for countless years uses one ,wtf ,dont people learn their own course without the RF to say its a certain distance .
im sure you know every blade of grass on your track but still use the bloody thing. 
on an away track then maybe they will prove useful ,but i [maybe im old school]prefer to look at my shot and choose a club ,if im wrong so be it.i dont lose sweat over it ,nor do i when my pp takes out his RF and fires the same club that i just hit .
we could argue the toss about this till the cows come home ,but you will not be swayed as wont i .
just the way it is .you like em ,i dont end of.
		
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So yardage markers and course planners and sprinkler heads with yardages on them ? 

How can it "not be golf"

The main part of golf is swinging the club and hitting the ball - do you have a problem with all the items that help that ? 

The skill is in the execution of the shot and picking the right club and playing the right shot 

Knowing the yardage can be gained from many ways - RF , GPS , course planners , yardage markers or pacing out from points on the golf course 

Knowing the distance is 5% - the rest is picking the club then hitting it well enough. 

There are so many things that have progressed and developed in golf - some massive changes that changed the whole way golf is played - drivers , balls , all clubs - yet there always seems to be an opposition to something that is such a small part of the game.

Yes I use a RF when I'm unsure of the distance - instead of checking a course planner or finding the yardage marker a quick look and I'm done - still have to then do the important part


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 21, 2015)

personally the only distance that should be marked on a course is from tee to green ,its then up to you to interperate the distance you have hit a ball and how far you have left.no extras required.
as for balls and clubs that is not the issue in this thread.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			personally the only distance that should be marked on a course is from tee to green ,its then up to you to interperate the distance you have hit a ball and how far you have left.no extras required.
as for balls and clubs that is not the issue in this thread.
		
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How long have courses had yardage markers ? 20 ? 30 years ? 

So you expect people just judge purely on guess work using no markings ? What happens if it's blind approaches or hidden bunkers or lakes etc 

Can understand some peoples reluctance in regards range finders - despite them not actually helping someone hit the ball but to have no markers or course planners etc ?! That just seems a bit mad


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## Qwerty (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Knowing the distance is 5% - the rest is picking the club then hitting it well enough.
		
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I don't think you can put a figure on it Phil. I'd say its one of many important elements of the Shot. If you get any of them wrong its a poor shot/Decision.
I agree the skill is in the ball striking but if your a good player and you know your yardages, getting that exact yardage by whatever means is often the difference between a birdie and a par

Is there anything more frustrating in golf than hitting the ball pure, straight at the flag only to walk to the green and find it 15 yards short because you misjudged the pin position and overall yardage.
Its something I did many times pre Rangefinder.

Equally, Theres also many times I've zapped a pin and been very surprised at the yardage, knowing full well I would of chosen the wrong club without the RF.

IMO over 18 holes they give users a big advantage, More so Good consistent Ball Strikers.
Im not overly opposed to them but given the Chance/ Choice I'd ban them


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

I think they way it's going they will become more frequent in use 

Understand exactly what you are saying in regards the judgement but then there is still the element factors to adjust too when picking the club or how you will play the shot 

Lots of advancements have been made to help you play that shot in regards clubs - knowing the distance to the exact yardage just seems to be not as important all the time.


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 21, 2015)

we never had any markers on the course when i first started playing back in the 70`s just the length of the hole,that was your lot.


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## IainP (Nov 21, 2015)

Manufacturers would like it, no doubt help them shift more units


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			we never had any markers on the course when i first started playing back in the 70`s just the length of the hole,that was your lot.
		
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That's a long time ago now and the game has progressed in so many ways - is it all good ? But as someone has said the sport is still massively enjoyable even with massive changes in equipment etc 

All sports progress - especially as technology in the world progresses - golf needs to progress with that and gadgets are a big part of that


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## Tongo (Nov 21, 2015)

Do professionals really need them? Scores most weeks on the PGA and European Tours are in and around 20 under par. 

Or they could strike a deal with players: caddie or range finder but not both!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Do professionals really need them? Scores most weeks on the PGA and European Tours are in and around 20 under par. 

Or they could strike a deal with players: caddie or range finder but not both!
		
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They have yardage books with all the yardages mapped out anyway from the pro am and practise days - they spent every shot looking at that book for a minute or so.


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## Tongo (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They have yardage books with all the yardages mapped out anyway from the pro am and practise days - they spent every shot looking at that book for a minute or so.
		
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Indeed. As someone else said though the range finders didnt make too much difference at the Walker Cup. In fact, if players and caddies have 2 things to refer to it'll only slow things down.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Indeed. As someone else said though the range finders didnt make too much difference at the Walker Cup. In fact, if players and caddies have 2 things to refer to it'll only slow things down.
		
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They would just need the range finder and would half the amount of time judging distance etc once they got used to it.


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## BTatHome (Nov 21, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Indeed. As someone else said though the range finders didnt make too much difference at the Walker Cup. In fact, if players and caddies have 2 things to refer to it'll only slow things down.
		
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To be honest that sounds more like the players being particularly slow about the whole process .... did you see how slow the solhiem cup was? When they started pacing out 60 yd pitches I stopped watching.

I would imagine Keegan Bradley and the rest would just fill their time with some other part of their elongated preshot routine instead.


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## BTatHome (Nov 21, 2015)

One thing about removing all markings on the course is how much some people rely on do wonder just how much everyone relies on these posts, sprinkler heads and how poorly some people would then play ... add on even more time in the round for people to get used to it again.


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## SammmeBee (Nov 21, 2015)

Won't happen - it would slow them up even more as it would give them something else to use in addition to what they use already.

With the course measurements they have its easy to work out exact distance to pin.  Pros are actually more into how to far behind and to side of pin which you still need a book for.


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## 3565 (Nov 21, 2015)

Well the ET are on a slow play vendetta against the players now. They want to quicken them up, a  RFs study in a US College showed that rounds were quicker, by how much I can't really remember but think it was 20 mins.  Now for the amateur the main yardage is to the flag and possibly the only one whereas Pro's need to the front edge, to the flag, to clear the bunker, how much room behind the pin........ Will using RFs on the tour speed them up, No. For them to speed up it will have to take something radical n drastic to achieve that.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 21, 2015)

I'm all for it!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2015)

Anything that speeds play up has to help. Caddies pacing up and down and then doing the maths to come up with a yardage takes forever. Add in them then having to line players up (especially on the ladies tour) and it's like watching paint dry and no wonder golf is struggling to attract TV viewers. Will there be one brand sanctioned, will they check that it doesn't have slope rating etc (and that a cheeky caddy doesn't turn this on during a round) and more importantly will the ET and PGA actually take the leap of faith involved


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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I'm liking the cut of this man's jib


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			Phil i just think that RF`s have taken away that little bit of what makes a golfer,having everything at your fingertips is just ,to my  mind not golf ,where is the challenge of looking at a shot and thinking about the club to be used rather than a device telling you its 150 to the centre and you hit your 7 iron 150 ,so its taking away some of the skill involved in playing the shot.
 the thing that makes me laugh with these things ,is when a club member who has played his own course for countless years uses one ,wtf ,dont people learn their own course without the RF to say its a certain distance .
im sure you know every blade of grass on your track but still use the bloody thing. 
on an away track then maybe they will prove useful ,but i [maybe im old school]prefer to look at my shot and choose a club ,if im wrong so be it.i dont lose sweat over it ,nor do i when my pp takes out his RF and fires the same club that i just hit .
*we could argue the toss about this till the cows come home* ,but you will not be swayed as wont i .
just the way it is .you like em ,i dont end of.
		
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You won't be arguing with me - but we will be in a very small minority I fear


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So yardage markers and course planners and sprinkler heads with yardages on them ? 

How can it "not be golf"

The main part of golf is swinging the club and hitting the ball - do you have a problem with all the items that help that ? 

The skill is in the execution of the shot and picking the right club and playing the right shot 

Knowing the yardage can be gained from many ways - RF , GPS , course planners , yardage markers or pacing out from points on the golf course 

Knowing the distance is 5% - the rest is picking the club then hitting it well enough. 

There are so many things that have progressed and developed in golf - some massive changes that changed the whole way golf is played - drivers , balls , all clubs - yet there always seems to be an opposition to something that is such a small part of the game.

Yes I use a RF when I'm unsure of the distance - instead of checking a course planner or finding the yardage marker a quick look and I'm done - still have to then do the important part
		
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Well - I cannot get away from the *fact* that golf is a game played in the head as well as with the club and ball.  Anything that changes the way we think about shots and that reduces uncertainty in our minds is changing an important facet of playing the game - remove uncertainly from golf and the game loses a huge amount.  But hey - I gave up arguing this a couple of years ago - though I still maintain that devices should not be allowed in closed club competitions where all playing will know the most distances on the course at least reasonably well.


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 21, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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I disagree 110% with this.  It used to really pee me off playing a strange course to hit what I thought was a perfect shot only to see it come up short or fly the green. It has increased my enjoyment of new courses hugely & I wouldn't be without mine.


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## ruff-driver (Nov 21, 2015)




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## Tongo (Nov 21, 2015)

Am i right in thinking that players are still required to keep score in golf, sign cards at the end and are disqualified for getting this wrong?

Technology in golf......just sayin! :thup:


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## GG26 (Nov 21, 2015)

I think that these will be good for the tour, especially if it does speed things up.

No matter how far you are from the pin, you still have to hit the shot and that includes wind speed and direction, lie, how receptive the green is, etc etc.  I don't believe that these take the skill out of the game.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2015)

They should let them use them straight away TBH, it would stop all the buggering around and maybe speed up play


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## Robobum (Nov 21, 2015)

I'd hate to see them on the ET. I love the caddy player interaction


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			I disagree 110% with this.  It used to really pee me off playing a strange course to hit what I thought was a perfect shot only to see it come up short or fly the green. It has increased my enjoyment of new courses hugely & I wouldn't be without mine.
		
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So you'd be Ok playing a comp at your own place without one :thup:


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you'd be Ok playing a comp at your own place without one :thup:
		
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Lets not start this again eh?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			Lets not start this again eh?
		
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I didn't - but I couldn't resist joining in this time - but will desist from further antagonising


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## duncan mackie (Nov 21, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			They should let them use them straight away TBH, it would stop all the buggering around and maybe speed up play
		
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It would slow things down not speed them up.

On the majority of feeder tours the player's don't even have caddies, let alone course books or put in any practice. Range finders simply duplicate the information but, as someone's already highlighted,  in the absence of this info many will be lazer in everything they think they need - more than once when they forget the first thing they measured! 

As to the rest of the thread...

Caddies measure everything nowadays,  and there are also serious course planning data and greens mapping information as well for US tour venues. But none of this is new - caddies have been part of the game for centuries, long before electronic range finders! Again as already referenced they would pace out, measure with string and tape etc etc 

The electronic DMD simply enables a modern amateur to benefit from exactly the same information that players with caddies have benefited from since the game started.  Personally I find it a lot quicker and simpler than pacing out - 40 years ago I would pace from the tee marker to my tee shot on strange courses to establish distance to go; on a home course you learnt and, of course, collecting course planners became the thing for a few decades.

Judging distance has never been a significant factor in the game - it's always been available. The impact of conditions and slope on that raw distance data has always been the core skill to be combined with delivering the solution/stroke.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2015)

I heard Colin Montgomery telling the amateurs in a ProAm at Wentworth that the ET would sanction range finders within a year or so and that was about 5 years ago. 

I've always used a range finder from day one that my club ok'd them, before that I used one to make a yardage book, I still paced distance on the course just to get the most accurate distance and now its all done in 5 seconds!

What's not to like? As has been said so many times - you don't have to use one if you object to them!


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## evahakool (Nov 21, 2015)

Can't understand why they don't let them use any dmd devices, would save the caddies some work.

I was very anti GPS devices awhile ago and got a lot of flak on here for saying so, after getting one as a present I've used one for the last year, hardly used it much on my own course but did find it useful playing away courses.

I'm still of the opion that it's not that useful to the mid/high h/cs after all it's not been a benefit in lowering my h/c.


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 22, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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We managed without toilet paper at one time.  Is this something you use?


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 22, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			We managed without toilet paper at one time.  Is this something you use?
		
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difference being I HAVE ALWAYS USED BOG ROLL BUT NOT A DMD.what about you ,you bang on about being a old git ,did you manage to play golf without a DMD back in the day. i presume you did .i bet you played when there were no markers on the course anywhere except on the tee. did you argue the toss about the so called lack of yardage that was being given .no i bet you didnt .
   you carry on using your little toy .but dont throw it out of the pram when someone dosent agree with your opinion .
nowhere in this thread have i decried using them just that i think they should be banned.
  i wont be posting on this thread anymore as it would now appear to be getting a little personal .


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 22, 2015)

The poacher said:



			difference being I HAVE ALWAYS USED BOG ROLL BUT NOT A DMD.what about you ,you bang on about being a old git ,did you manage to play golf without a DMD back in the day. i presume you did .i bet you played when there were no markers on the course anywhere except on the tee. did you argue the toss about the so called lack of yardage that was being given .no i bet you didnt .
   you carry on using your little toy .but dont throw it out of the pram when someone dosent agree with your opinion .
nowhere in this thread have i decried using them just that i think they should be banned.
  i wont be posting on this thread anymore as it would now appear to be getting a little personal .

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Ooh,  touchy! The,  valid,  I think,  point I was making was that having been able to get on without them before is not a reason for banning them.  Personally,  the use of a rangefinder has *infinitely* increased my enjoyment of courses I've never played before,  eliminating the misjudgement you always make on unfamiliar courses. To me,  this is not "cheating" it's playing a new course as if you were familiar with it. I played Kingswood unseen the other week & found it hard to believe some of the distances I measured.  Without the rangefinder I would have been tearing my hair out at all the misclubbings.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2015)

chrisd said:



			I heard Colin Montgomery telling the amateurs in a ProAm at Wentworth that the ET would sanction range finders within a year or so and that was about 5 years ago. 

I've always used a range finder from day one that my club ok'd them, before that I used one to make a yardage book, I still paced distance on the course just to get the most accurate distance and now its all done in 5 seconds!

What's not to like? As has been said so many times - *you don't have to use one if you object to them*!
		
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You know fine well that that isn't the point that I make - about their use in closed club comps.  But i shall desist.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Ooh,  touchy! The,  valid,  I think,  point I was making was that having been able to get on without them before is not a reason for banning them.  Personally,  the use of a rangefinder has *infinitely* increased my enjoyment of courses I've never played before,  eliminating the misjudgement you always make on unfamiliar courses. To me,  this is not "cheating" it's playing a new course as if you were familiar with it. I played Kingswood unseen the other week & found it hard to believe some of the distances I measured.  Without the rangefinder I would have been tearing my hair out at all the misclubbings.
		
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You can't increase *anything *infinitely


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## Craigg (Nov 22, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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I managed perfectly well before, that was when I had two eyes. Have you ever tried to calculate a yardage with only one eye and no depth perception? Obviously not. Maybe you should engage your brain before you put your trap in gear. That good enough reason for you?


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You know fine well that that isn't the point that I make - about their use in closed club comps.  But i shall desist.
		
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Please desist mate, that's been done to death!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2015)

Always been thankful for my Sky Caddie especially on away courses. Off my handicap and with my skill level, I don't need the absolute yardage of a laser and so the proximity of a DMD is fine for me. I do think it'll make the play quicker *until* the player wants to second check what the caddie has told him.


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## t0m (Nov 22, 2015)

I have to agree with some points as a nomad  I love my gps watch it's around 5 to 10 yards out most of the time but it's great when your out of position. Caddies do a lot of work before the rounds that could be cut out. How many of you use a eletric trolley  in comps not carrying is it?


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can't increase *anything *infinitely 

Click to expand...

All right then, exponentially.


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can't increase *anything *infinitely 

Click to expand...

Try the number of decimal places in pi.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Try the number of decimal places in pi.
		
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You have to be at infinity to have said that something has increased to the point - and you can never get to infinity - in fact you can never get any closer to infinity than where you are when you start towards it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2015)

And people on here tell me the football thread is boring&#128515;


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## Maninblack4612 (Nov 23, 2015)

J



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You have to be at infinity to have said that something has increased to the point - and you can never get to infinity - in fact you can never get any closer to infinity than where you are when you start towards it.
		
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You're right.  I think I was confusing infinity with "a lot".  I'm a bit prone to exaggeration.


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## dufferman (Nov 23, 2015)

[video=youtube_share;pW00cueK6XM]https://youtu.be/pW00cueK6XM[/video]


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2015)

Who's going to be the first caddy to use the range finder and then go back to his old tried and tested method of a quick pace out because he doesn't have 100% confidence in the RF.

Slower play.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2015)

Why would a caddy not have 100% confidence in a RF they already use every week to map out the course during practise rounds


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would a caddy not have 100% confidence in a RF they already use every week to map out the course during practise rounds
		
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If they already have done all the ground work during the practice round I'm now doubly unsure why they need to do it all again.

GPS and hand held lasers cannot be 100% accurate at all times so that may have an affect on their confidence. So not having caddied at that level I cannot answer your question.


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## Fyldewhite (Nov 23, 2015)

I think the use is fully justified. As others have said, it simply gives you the information that a caddie would have given "back in the day" to all golfers. The notion that all players should have the play by "rack'o th'eye" is quite frankly a bit ridiculous.....but what price local knowledge under those rules!

 As for the tour though, I don't think it will speed up play at all. The distance is not what they are talking about, the caddies provide this and the players trust it straight away. They are usually discussing wind, type of shot, possible trouble etc and they will continue to do this with DMD's or not.


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## Piece (Nov 23, 2015)

Skimmed the thread and got confused by infinity discussion?! 

I'm in favour of any golfer using what device they want as long as it doesn't detract from pace of play.


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## Slab (Nov 23, 2015)

Are RF's currently subject to any build parameters/specs from USGA/R&A ?


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## Roops (Nov 23, 2015)

I think there is still a lot skill in utilising the information a range finder provides. For example, It may 150 yds, but out of the rough, down wind, up hill, bare lie, cross wind, cold, hot etc etc. You still have to make a judgment on club, line, flight etc. The RF provides a number, how you choose to utilise that information is still a huge part of golf. 

Pro wise, if it speeds up play, they should have them, however, I fear the caddies might just end up dicking about taking hundreds of measurements in case they lasered the tall bloke in the crowd and not the pin........


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## Slab (Nov 23, 2015)

Roops said:



*I think there is still a lot skill in utilising the information a range finder provides. For example, It may 150 yds, but out of the rough, down wind, up hill, bare lie, cross wind, cold, hot etc etc. You still have to make a judgment on club, line, flight etc. The RF provides a number, how you choose to utilise that information is still a huge part of golf. *

Pro wise, if it speeds up play, they should have them, however, I fear the caddies might just end up dicking about taking hundreds of measurements in case they lasered the tall bloke in the crowd and not the pin........
		
Click to expand...

I tend to agree but once you open that can (& RF's can already adjust distance for uphill/downhill) it'll be a matter of months before they have temp/humidity/wind speed/direction all built in too and we'll have the same back and forth discussion each new feature about still having to hit the shot and then the magnification will increase from x5 to x50 so you can watch the group in front putt close up and see pace/slope information in real-time... so I can well understand the reluctance to get the ball rolling


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## hovis (Nov 23, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			If they already have done all the ground work during the practice round I'm now doubly unsure why they need to do it all again.

GPS and hand held lasers cannot be 100% accurate at all times so that may have an affect on their confidence. So not having caddied at that level I cannot answer your question.
		
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Why can't a hand held laser not be accurate all the time?.  If you put a humans judgment against a laser the laser would win hands down every time


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			I tend to agree but once you open that can (& RF's can already adjust distance for uphill/downhill) it'll be a matter of months before they have temp/humidity/wind speed/direction all built in too and we'll have the same back and forth discussion each new feature about still having to hit the shot and then the magnification will increase from x5 to x50 so you can watch the group in front putt close up and see pace/slope information in real-time... so I can well understand the reluctance to get the ball rolling
		
Click to expand...

this is the sort of development where I see the risk and then issue arising.  I also see it exacerbated by integration of on course playing conditions and scenario with a player's practice information and outcomes/decisions for the same combinations as will be provided and downloadable from the Cloud.  

So for example the player is 152yds from the flag.  His rangefinder tells him that and his GPS tells him exactly where he is on the fairway  He knows the exact position of the flag on the green.  The green protected front right by a bunker and is 31ft elevated from his ball position; air temperature is 20degC and there is a 10m/s wind from NNE  - which resolves to 5.6m/s wind against.  Pulling down practice information for this scenario from the Cloud the Device advises the player to hit a three-quarter 6iron over the middle of the right hand bunker as that is what his practice data when he has hit shots in practice adjusted for these conditions ans scenario tells him will give highest probability of a good outcome.

Maybe I exaggerate?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			If they already have done all the ground work during the practice round I'm now doubly unsure why they need to do it all again.

GPS and hand held lasers cannot be 100% accurate at all times so that may have an affect on their confidence. So not having caddied at that level I cannot answer your question.
		
Click to expand...

Well if they can use RF then the ground won't be as extensive 

And why can't a laser be 100% accurate all the time ? 

A caddy and player uses the laser every single week so already has confidence in them - that won't vanish because they are allowed to use it on the Thursday through to Sunday as well


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			this is the sort of development where I see the risk and then issue arising.  I also see it exacerbated by integration of on course playing conditions and scenario with a player's practice information and outcomes/decisions for the same combinations as will be provided and downloadable from the Cloud.  

So for example the player is 152yds from the flag.  His rangefinder tells him that and his GPS tells him exactly where he is on the fairway  He knows the exact position of the flag on the green.  The green protected front right by a bunker and is 31ft elevated from his ball position; air temperature is 20degC and there is a 10m/s wind from NNE  - which resolves to 5.6m/s wind against.  Pulling down practice information for this scenario from the Cloud the Device advises the player to hit a three-quarter 6iron over the middle of the right hand bunker as that is what his practice data when he has hit shots in practice adjusted for these conditions ans scenario tells him will give highest probability of a good outcome.

*Maybe I exaggerate?*

Click to expand...

Yes believe you do


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2015)

hovis said:



			Why can't a hand held laser not be accurate all the time?.  If you put a humans judgment against a laser the laser would win hands down every time
		
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As someone who has worked with lasers all my working life all I can say is that weather and the ability for someone using a hand held device can AT TIMES have an effect.  The GPS accuracy can also AT TIMES be effected by the devices inability to locate a satellite and its accuracy is enhanced by the number of sats it can detect.

To avoid a long drawnoutt side track of the thread can I just again mention that it is AT TIMES.


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## Slab (Nov 23, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes believe you do
		
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You could call it exaggeration maybe even scaremongering but isnâ€™t it exactly this type of vision that the rule-makers need to apply to the sport to protect its future?

You simply canâ€™t take the here and now and make changes without considering future impact, and the idea of permitting RFâ€™s on tour on this thread seems to only consider the past/present & not the future


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			You could call it exaggeration maybe even scaremongering but isnâ€™t it exactly this type of vision that the rule-makers need to apply to the sport to protect its future?

You simply canâ€™t take the here and now and make changes without considering future impact, and the idea of permitting RFâ€™s on tour on this thread seems to only consider the past/present & not the future
		
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Thankyou - exactly my point.


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## Qwerty (Nov 23, 2015)

Laser or no laser I'm not sure that it would actually make a difference to an already slow player.

When I've heard player & Caddie conversations deliberating over the shot they have the yardage straight away, the detail is usually about Wind speed/ Direction. Whether to attack the pin or aim for a safe part of the green, obviously club selection etc etc.. Obtaining the yardage appears to be quick and Straightforward 

I think a slow player will always be slow as long as you allow him.

Only my opinion but it would be good to get a Caddies insight into this, do we have any on here?


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## UlyssesSky (Nov 23, 2015)

The poacher said:



			difference being I HAVE ALWAYS USED BOG ROLL BUT NOT A DMD.
		
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Hmmm... if that's the crucial difference, does that mean players who grew up using DMDs, and thus always have used a DMD (as well as bog roll, hopefully), should be allowed to use them when they make it on tour? 


I think many of the arguments made against RFs are wrong or miss important points.

1. Using range finders takes away from the game/makes it "less golf" - _No, because RFs simply give easier access to information the caddies/players already have. __How getting the yardage live and on the spot instead of measuring important landmarks before the round and then pacing the distance from them to the ball during play should be "less golf" is beyond my limited intellectual abilities, I'm afraid.

_2. RFs won't help with pace of play - _I believe they will. Having to pace the distance to the nearest measured point and then calculating the distance to various other points (hazards, etc) takes time, which can be drastically reduced by using RFs. Pacing 10 yards to the nearest sprinkler head probably takes about 10 seconds alone, then the based on that result the distances to pins, hazards, landing areas, etc. have to be calculated. Let's say by using RFs the time needed to get the right distance can be reduced by 15 seconds per approach shot, and we're talking about saving up to 18 mins for a flight of 4 players...

_
3. Allowing RFs means opening pandora's box, since it inevitably will lead to all other kinds of gadgets and measuring devices becoming legal - _This is simply not true, because, like pointed out before, RFs only give easier access to information they already have via their yardage books. Other data like wind speed, humidity, exact temperature is not available to players at present, which means enabling players to measure those would be something completely different than simply allowing them to get their yardages by using a laser instead of caculating them based on yardages from their yardage books (that were obtained using a laser...) and pacing the distance to measured points on the course.


_It's funny how everybody seems to feel like the amount of technology (in any aspect of life/sport/...) is the exact right amount and anything more would be sacrilege. Times are changing, and always will be changing. You better get used to it now, or you won't be having much fun in the future.


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 23, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			Hmmm... if that's the crucial difference, does that mean players who grew up using DMDs, and thus always have used a DMD (as well as bog roll, hopefully), should be allowed to use them when they make it on tour? 


I think many of the arguments made against RFs are wrong or miss important points.

1. Using range finders takes away from the game/makes it "less golf" - _No, because RFs simply give easier access to information the caddies/players already have. __How getting the yardage live and on the spot instead of measuring important landmarks before the round and then pacing the distance from them to the ball during play should be "less golf" is beyond my limited intellectual abilities, I'm afraid.

_2. RFs won't help with pace of play - _I believe they will. Having to pace the distance to the nearest measured point and then calculating the distance to various other points (hazards, etc) takes time, which can be drastically reduced by using RFs. Pacing 10 yards to the nearest sprinkler head probably takes about 10 seconds alone, then the based on that result the distances to pins, hazards, landing areas, etc. have to be calculated. Let's say by using RFs the time needed to get the right distance can be reduced by 15 seconds per approach shot, and we're talking about saving up to 18 mins for a flight of 4 players...

_
3. Allowing RFs means opening pandora's box, since it inevitably will lead to all other kinds of gadgets and measuring devices becoming legal - _This is simply not true, because, like pointed out before, RFs only give easier access to information they already have via their yardage books. Other data like wind speed, humidity, exact temperature is not available to players at present, which means enabling players to measure those would be something completely different than simply allowing them to get their yardages by using a laser instead of caculating them based on yardages from their yardage books (that were obtained using a laser...) and pacing the distance to measured points on the course.


_It's funny how everybody seems to feel like the amount of technology (in any aspect of life/sport/...) is the exact right amount and anything more would be sacrilege. Times are changing, and always will be changing. You better get used to it now, or you won't be having much fun in the future.
		
Click to expand...


i have never dissed anyone for using a RF .

 right point one ,tell me how many times you walked a course and measured it out to strategic points on a hole .no didnt thinks so.
 and are you that much of an anorak that you actually used to pace out a chip shot.dear oh dear, try using yours eyes.

point 2 .i have never said it will speed up play ,or,come that slow it down.

point 3 second paragraph.its not my enjoyment that is being taken away fro me but all those that use RF`s .
are you seriously telling me that when they bring out a club that swings itself you will be using it ,cos its the latest tech rubbish on the market.


you carry on looking through your rose tinted RF`s and i will look through my eyes .
who is going to feel better about "THAT"shot that finishes stiff to the pin ,the one who needed tech help or the one that used what he was given.
if you can HONESTLY ,and i mean HONESTLY tell me the tech aided shot then im afraid you must have missed one of your pills this morning.


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## User20205 (Nov 23, 2015)

I've hit good shots without one, bad shots using one.

I currently don't use one, either laser or gps as I keep losing/breaking them.

Anyone who objects, it's one you're entitled to, but your opinion is pretty irrelevant. They're not going anywhere.

Re being used on tour, they won't speed up play. They may give the caddies a lie in the day before.


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## User20205 (Nov 23, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i have never dissed anyone for using a RF .

 right point one ,tell me how many times you walked a course and measured it out to strategic points on a hole .no didnt thinks so.
 and are you that much of an anorak that you actually used to pace out a chip shot.dear oh dear, try using yours eyes.

point 2 .i have never said it will speed up play ,or,come that slow it down.

point 3 second paragraph.its not my enjoyment that is being taken away fro me but all those that use RF`s .
are you seriously telling me that when they bring out a club that swings itself you will be using it ,cos its the latest tech rubbish on the market.


you carry on looking through your rose tinted RF`s and i will look through my eyes .
who is going to feel better about "THAT"shot that finishes stiff to the pin ,the one who needed tech help or the one that used what he was given.
if you can HONESTLY ,and i mean HONESTLY tell me the tech aided shot then im afraid you must have missed one of your pills this morning.
		
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What driver, irons & ball do you use?


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## UlyssesSky (Nov 23, 2015)

Oh boy, where to start...



The poacher said:



			i have never dissed anyone for using a RF .
		
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I haven't dissed anyone either, I was merely making fun of the fact that you made it sound like "i have always used X, but not Y, thus Y shouldn't be used at all" was an actual argument.




			right point one ,tell me how many times you walked a course and measured it out to strategic points on a hole .no didnt thinks so.
 and are you that much of an anorak that you actually used to pace out a chip shot.dear oh dear, try using yours eyes.
		
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The thread title is "Range Finders on Tour", i.e. we were talking about the use of range finders by professionals in official tournaments. Now you tell me how many times a player and his caddie didn't measure the course in the practice round and then pace the distance to the nearest measured points in competition but instead decided to "try using their eyes". Can't recall a single time? Didn't think so. 




			point 2 .i have never said it will speed up play ,or,come that slow it down.
		
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My post wasn't directed exclusivly at you. And others did make arguments about pace of play and how range finders will/won't help with it.




			point 3 second paragraph.its not my enjoyment that is being taken away fro me but all those that use RF`s .
are you seriously telling me that when they bring out a club that swings itself you will be using it ,cos its the latest tech rubbish on the market.
		
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How do you know people take enjoyment from guessing distances instead of using a laser to measure them? For me (and, judging by the majority of responses, for many other as well) playing golf is about swinging the club and getting the ball to land as close to where I want it as possible, not about getting the distance to that point right without the help of a DMD.
So no, I won't use a self swinging club, but I will use a DMD.





			you carry on looking through your rose tinted RF`s and i will look through my eyes .
who is going to feel better about "THAT"shot that finishes stiff to the pin ,the one who needed tech help or the one that used what he was given.
if you can HONESTLY ,and i mean HONESTLY tell me the tech aided shot then im afraid you must have missed one of your pills this morning.
		
Click to expand...

You don't have to use a RF, but maybe glasses would be a good idea to help you see beyond your nose and realise there's more out there than just your idea about how things should be done. Until you do, I guess Albert Einstein's famous words remain true: "The horizon of many people is a cirlce with a radius of zero. They call this their point of view."


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 23, 2015)

hickory shafts and featheries


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## Imurg (Nov 23, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			this is the sort of development where I see the risk and then issue arising.  I also see it exacerbated by integration of on course playing conditions and scenario with a player's practice information and outcomes/decisions for the same combinations as will be provided and downloadable from the Cloud.  

So for example the player is 152yds from the flag.  His rangefinder tells him that and his GPS tells him exactly where he is on the fairway  He knows the exact position of the flag on the green.  The green protected front right by a bunker and is 31ft elevated from his ball position; air temperature is 20degC and there is a 10m/s wind from NNE  - which resolves to 5.6m/s wind against.  Pulling down practice information for this scenario from the Cloud the Device advises the player to hit a three-quarter 6iron over the middle of the right hand bunker as that is what his practice data when he has hit shots in practice adjusted for these conditions ans scenario tells him will give highest probability of a good outcome.

Maybe I exaggerate?
		
Click to expand...

The R&A, in its infinite wisdom( don't start!) has decreed that the use of DMDs is allowed subject to a LR - as well we know. And that's for distance and distance only.
Everything else from your scenario above currently breaches rules and will do until Hell freezes over. The chances of the R&A allowing it are so minuscule its not worth thinking about them.
DMDs provide a distance that's all, its nothing mystical or immoral just a number that someone without a DMD can establish by several other means.
If people don't want to go down that road then they don't have to. After all you don't have to use modern clubs, balls, shoes, bags and trolleys etc. You don't have to use a 460cc driver if you don't think it's fair, you can use a 220cc one from 30 years ago its still allowed but don't have a go at those that do, after all it's legal. Just like a DMD. Legal. If you don't like it then don't use one. Simples.
These things have been around for years, I can't get my head around why some people can't accept that they're here and won't be going away.

DMDs won't speed up the Pro game because, as has been said, they spend most of their time discussing the shot, the hazards etc etc. For them, distance is only a small part of the equation.


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## User20205 (Nov 23, 2015)

The poacher said:



			hickory shafts and featheries
		
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 :thup:


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## hines57 (Nov 23, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			This would be so sensible.  Must save time if it stops the caddies fannying around trying to find the distance to the nearest centimetre from their yardage books.
		
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Fully agree. Should cut round times a worthwhile amount.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2015)

Imurg said:



			The R&A, in its infinite wisdom( don't start!) has decreed that the use of DMDs is allowed subject to a LR - as well we know. And that's for distance and distance only.
*Everything else from your scenario above currently breaches rules and will do until Hell freezes over.* The chances of the R&A allowing it are so minuscule its not worth thinking about them.
DMDs provide a distance that's all, its nothing mystical or immoral just a number that someone without a DMD can establish by several other means.
If people don't want to go down that road then they don't have to. After all you don't have to use modern clubs, balls, shoes, bags and trolleys etc. You don't have to use a 460cc driver if you don't think it's fair, you can use a 220cc one from 30 years ago its still allowed but don't have a go at those that do, after all it's legal. Just like a DMD. Legal. If you don't like it then don't use one. Simples.
These things have been around for years, I can't get my head around why some people can't accept that they're here and won't be going away.

DMDs won't speed up the Pro game because, as has been said, they spend most of their time discussing the shot, the hazards etc etc. For them, distance is only a small part of the equation.
		
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I like your confidence in the golfing authorities ability to resist demands from commercial interests keen to develop such as 'practice informed on-course' golf aid apps.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 23, 2015)

Until the R&A and PGA decide range finders are the way forward or at least give them a decent and fair trial, not just on satellite tours then it's all subjective. Interesting debate and some interesting points raised (some quite strongly). I can't see how it'll speed up those who are notoriously slow anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 24, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Until the R&A and PGA decide range finders are the way forward or at least give them a decent and fair trial, not just on satellite tours then it's all subjective. Interesting debate and some interesting points raised (some quite strongly). I can't see how it'll speed up those who are notoriously slow anyway.
		
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...and all our fellows who whip them out when within 50yds of the green!! All absolutely necessary of course - touch and feel from that distance?  Nah - essential to know exact distance for my clubbing - not.  But hey.  I will desist (though nice to see *@The Poacher* picking up the batten that I threw to the ground in acceptance - though not defeat - a year or so back)


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## AlanMills (Nov 24, 2015)

Hi, first post.

Frankly I'm not sure it will save any time at all overall.  Anytime they;'re taking dead aim then yeah, maybe.  But more than half the time on tour they don't do they?  They're aiming for a particular slope or to just carry a bunker.


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2015)

On the course today with 2 other, we all had DMD.  All gave different readings, 1 x laser and 2 different GPS models.  The 2 GPS ones were within 4 feet of each other most times and the laser was showing a greater distance each time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			On the course today with 2 other, we all had DMD.  All gave different readings, 1 x laser and 2 different GPS models.  The 2 GPS ones were within 4 feet of each other most times and the laser was showing a greater distance each time.
		
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You will get different readings between a laser and a GPS - that's nothing new. And GPS will vary dependent on the make and quality


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## Three (Nov 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			On the course today with 2 other, we all had DMD.  All gave different readings, 1 x laser and 2 different GPS models.  The 2 GPS ones were within 4 feet of each other most times and the laser was showing a greater distance each time.
		
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ALWAYS go with the laser.


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2015)

Personally I don't see the logic of objecting to any technology.

The best golfers are talented; their muscles and eye - hand co-ordination is superb and there-in lies the skill.

I'm all for allowing a free range on the information provided by technology: distance, wind, humidity, terrain, slope etc. etc. The golfer is still human and subject muscle tension and emotion.

I'd even dispense with the detail restriction on clubs; it might be fascinating to see what developments in design would come to the market.

If the officials clamp down on slow play, as they say they will; what does it matter? 

Golf is a game of skill and the technology may help at the margins but the most talented players will still rise to the top.


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## delc (Nov 25, 2015)

The poacher said:



			i dont like any type of range finder,they should be banned from all golf.
we managed without them before so why not now .
		
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They help me to go round in fewer shots, so have to speed up play! What annoys me on the pro tours is the two minute discussion between the player and the caddie before every shot, even when the exact distance is already known. What on earth can they be talking about?!


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2015)

delc said:



			They help me to go round in fewer shots, so have to speed up play! What annoys me on the pro tours is the two minute discussion between the player and the caddie before every shot, even when the exact distance is already known. What on earth can they be talking about?!
		
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Delc its all the psycho-babble from their Sports Psychologists and getting into a positive mindset. The Pro-game is becoming sooooo slow I'd have GPS driven timers issued to all competitors that timed each shot and set off a buzzer when the allowed time limited was exceeded.


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## 3565 (Nov 25, 2015)

Personally even having DMDs they won't speed up. They will still have their yardage charts and green charts to look at to see what they had done in practise rounds and rounds in the tournament, noting the wind direction, their position, the iron they hit and how far it went from X place, how far from back edge of front right bunker to the green......... It goes on. So getting the yardage is just a small fraction of what they need to hit a shot. With them playing 5hr rounds in 3balls the tours have got a looonnng way to catch up to the 3 ball amateur speed of play (on average). 

So instead of giving them more to think about, give them less, take away the yardage/putting charts, just a tour sanctioned DMD for them.


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## delc (Nov 25, 2015)

drdel said:



			Delc its all the psycho-babble from their Sports Psychologists and getting into a positive mindset. The Pro-game is becoming sooooo slow I'd have GPS driven timers issued to all competitors that timed each shot and set off a buzzer when the allowed time limited was exceeded.
		
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But what sanctions would you apply when the buzzer goes off? Fine, penalty shots, or what?


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## Imurg (Nov 26, 2015)

If you're going to sanction a professional player, penalty shot(s) is the ONLY way.


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## hines57 (Nov 26, 2015)

Imurg said:



			If you're going to sanction a professional player, penalty shot(s) is the ONLY way.
		
Click to expand...

 agreed and it has to be consistently applied. Perhaps there should be a GPS based shot timer that starts once a player gets to his/her ball. That way if there is one slow player in a group, it is that individual who incurs the shot penalty. How about an escalating shot penalty for repeat offenders? One shot first time, two shots second time etc. That would certainly focus a few minds!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 27, 2015)

hines57 said:



			agreed and it has to be consistently applied. Perhaps there should be a GPS based shot timer that starts once a player gets to his/her ball. That way if there is one slow player in a group, it is that individual who incurs the shot penalty. How about an escalating shot penalty for repeat offenders? One shot first time, two shots second time etc. That would certainly focus a few minds!
		
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Personally I'd like to see a yellow card system imposed. One for the first offence and on the clock. If you are on the clock again in the same event and it's a second yellow. Three times in one event and a "red card" and a two shot penalty. Two red cards and you start the next event with a three shot penalty. Of course with millions at stake, and being so radical it won't happen but the tour on both sides of the Atlantic has to take slow play seriously and come up with an equitable and consistent way of getting rid of this scourge


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