# Rooney - "not world class?"



## Piece (Apr 3, 2014)

Normally I'd treat what Joey Barton says with the stick I've just cleaned the bottom of my shoe with, but I do agree with him here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26867861


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## One Planer (Apr 3, 2014)

Piece said:



			Normally I'd treat what Joey Barton says with the stick I've just cleaned the bottom of my shoe with, but I do agree with him here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26867861

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Is this the same Joey Barton who plays for QPR talking about professional mentality?

The same one who put a lit cigar out on a team mate at a Christmas Party?

The same chap who was in court a while back for assault?

The bloke charged with criminal damage and assault on a taxi driver?

The chap who ran over a pedestrian in Liverpool city centre at 2am in the morning?

..... And has only 1 (full) England cap.

He's hardly whiter than white is he, or the next Pele himself is he? People in glass houses and all that.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 3, 2014)

I think Rooney is superb, slighly behind Ronaldo/Messi/Zlatan, but there's not shame in that!


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## pendodave (Apr 3, 2014)

Just because he's an idiot doesn't mean he isn't right.

Mind you, this hardly rates as a profound and illuminating insight. I'd put it about level with observing that our Ursidian cousins defecate among the trees...


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## Scotty_Tom (Apr 3, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I think Rooney is superb, slighly behind Ronaldo/Messi/Zlatan/Suarez/Sturridge/Gerard/Oscar/Cavani/Bale/Ronaldo/ + loads of others!!, but there's not shame in that!
		
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fixed it for you.


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## adam6177 (Apr 3, 2014)

He is one of the most over hyped English players of all time.

On the rare occasion he does something "special" its against mediocre teams.  He goes missing in big games and isn't consistent. 

Sorry, but the white pele he aint.


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## One Planer (Apr 3, 2014)

adam6177 said:



			He is one of the most over hyped English players of all time.

On the rare occasion he does something "special" its against mediocre teams.  He goes missing in big games and isn't consistent. 

Sorry, but the white pele he aint.
		
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So the over-head kick in the Manchester Derby doesn't count?

I'm far from a Manchester United fan, but the lad  has talent.


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## Jack_bfc (Apr 3, 2014)

Don't get involved, don't get involved... I promised myself I wouldn't get into football debate on here....


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2014)

Gareth said:



			So the over-head kick in the Manchester Derby doesn't count?

I'm far from a Manchester United fan, but the lad  has talent.
		
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No because it was against a mediocre team


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Is this the same Joey Barton who plays for QPR talking about professional mentality?

The same one who put a lit cigar out on a team mate at a Christmas Party?

The same chap who was in court a while back for assault?

The bloke charged with criminal damage and assault on a taxi driver?

The chap who ran over a pedestrian in Liverpool city centre at 2am in the morning?

..... And has only 1 (full) England cap.

He's hardly whiter than white is he, or the next Pele himself is he? People in glass houses and all that.
		
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That's a quality response.

Hes also the pratt who cost Utd the title by getting sent off against city.


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## One Planer (Apr 3, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			No because it was against a mediocre team

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Point taken, but he didn't 'Go missing' in that game. Nor did he against Munich this week.

Does his half way line goal against the Hammers count as against a "mediocre team"?


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## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2014)

pendodave said:



			Just because he's an idiot doesn't mean he isn't right.

Mind you, this hardly rates as a profound and illuminating insight. I'd put it about level with observing that our Ursidian cousins defecate among the trees...
		
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Beat me to it!

Does anyone on here really believe England are likely to win the World Cup? At around 30:1, certainly not the bookies!
http://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2014)

I believe Rooney is a world class striker.
As a wide man and a midfielder hes far from world class.
I believe he does too much work off the ball chasing lost causes,stick him up front
and see him flourish,however times running out his career seems to have flown by.


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## One Planer (Apr 3, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Does anyone on here really believe England are likely to win the World Cup?
		
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Is Rooney playing solo in the world cup?

As a team England aren't up to the standard. We all accept that. 


That's not what the thread questions though


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2014)

adam6177 said:



			He is one of the most over hyped English players of all time.

On the rare occasion he does something "special" its against mediocre teams.  He goes missing in big games and isn't consistent. 

Sorry, but the white pele he aint.
		
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Im sorry Adam but your talking rubbish about only doing it against mediocre teams.
Yes hes inconsistent because I believe hes been played out of position sometimes.
No-one said he was the white Pele[no -one that knows football that is.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I think Rooney is superb, slighly behind Ronaldo/Messi/Zlatan, but there's not shame in that!
		
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He is good but miles away from those three 

Wouldn't put him in the top 10 

He isn't world class because he wouldn't get in a world XI


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## USER1999 (Apr 3, 2014)

World class.

But at what?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			World class.

But at what?
		
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Helping out grandma's


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## MadAdey (Apr 3, 2014)

I hate taht term "WORLD CLASS". It just seems to get thrown about far too much. But if we are talking about world class strikers then I would take these above Rooney any day of the week:

Ronaldo
Messi
Suarez
Zlatan

To me world class means it is a player that would walk into any team in the world irrelivant of who they already have. I believe at the minute the players above would, but I do not think rooney would. That is why I would not call him world class.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I hate taht term "WORLD CLASS". It just seems to get thrown about far too much. But if we are talking about world class strikers then I would take these above Rooney any day of the week:

Ronaldo
Messi
Suarez
Zlatan

To me world class means it is a player that would walk into any team in the world irrelivant of who they already have. I believe at the minute the players above would, but I do not think rooney would. That is why I would not call him world class.
		
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Add 

Falcao
Cavani
Benzema
Costa
Lewondonski

To that list also


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## Snelly (Apr 3, 2014)

Nowhere near world class.  

World class strikers: Bergkamp, Henry, Messi, Stoichkov, Baggio, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Romario, Zola, Ronaldo, Maradona, Puskas, Suker, Law, Del Piero, Ibrahimovic, Klinsmann, Dalglish, Raul, Muller, Pele, Rummenigge, Batistuta, Papin, Butragueno, Eusebio and there are loads more. 

Rooney isn't even close.  Massively overrated, just like Beckham before him.  But because they are English and half decent, the deluded masses following In-ger-lund believe that they are up there with the greats.  

Quite laughable really.


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## Birchy (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Add 

Falcao
Cavani
Benzema
Costa
Lewondonski

To that list also
		
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World class is all relative to how you define world class.

Rooney is better than all them above though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Nowhere near world class.  

World class strikers: Bergkamp, Henry, Messi, Stoichkov, Baggio, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Romario, Zola, Ronaldo, Maradona, Puskas, Suker, Law, Del Piero, Ibrahimovic, Klinsmann, Dalglish, Raul, Muller, Pele, Rummenigge, Batistuta, Papin, Butragueno, Eusebio and there are loads more. 

Rooney isn't even close.  Massively overrated, just like Beckham before him.  But because they are English and half decent, the deluded masses following In-ger-lund believe that they are up there with the greats.  

Quite laughable really.
		
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The Beckham reference is spot on


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## guest100718 (Apr 3, 2014)

Birchy said:



			World class is all relative to how you define world class.

Rooney is better than all them above though.
		
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id take falcoa or levendowski before rooney


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Birchy said:



			World class is all relative to how you define world class.

Rooney is better than all them above though.
		
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Believe all those listed are better strikers than Rooney 

World class for me is if the player can get into a World XI ( including subs ) - Rooney for me wouldn't


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 3, 2014)

Interesting thing about English football, you either support Manchester United or you don't.The ABU suggestion is alive and well on this thread.

And as for the suggestion world class means you'd get into a world XI no matter what, meaning there can only ever be XI world class players at any one time is weird...I think the bayern goalie is world class but also the man utd goalie, so what do I do?

I think Xavi and Busquets are world class but also Gerrard and Kroos, would Zlatan get a game for Barca?Obviously not as they'd not replace Messi, but he's world class, isn't he?Bale is world class but no one would drop Iniesta from the left side,would they?Would you replace Saurez with Aguero?Who's world class and who's not then?

Rooney is excellent, if he wasn't such a cave man I'd imagine PSG and Real would have tried to sign him by now,and they only sign world class players


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## Piece (Apr 3, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Nowhere near world class.  

World class strikers: Bergkamp, Henry, Messi, Stoichkov, Baggio, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Romario, Zola, Ronaldo, Maradona, Puskas, Suker, Law, Del Piero, Ibrahimovic, Klinsmann, Dalglish, Raul, Muller, Pele, Rummenigge, Batistuta, Papin, Butragueno, Eusebio and there are loads more. 

Rooney isn't even close.  Massively overrated, just like Beckham before him.  But because they are English and half decent, the deluded masses following In-ger-lund believe that they are up there with the greats.  

Quite laughable really.
		
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This is where I am really, hence my OP. He has gone missing for England too many times (all major tournaments) and often shows in big games that he's just a very good player, not world glass.

I seem to remember a leaner Rooney at Everton with bags of pace to burn (bit like Ross Barkley now). Since 'developing' at United, he's become muscular and has lost that 5% to take him past people. I also think he gets in the way of other players at United, either dropping too far deep and hitting his predictable long diagonal balls, or playing just behind the striker in the playmaker role - that should be left to Kagawa or Mata, IMHO. It was only recently he couldn't get a game as RVP was doing the business.

What he is world class at threatening to leave and getting a fat pay rise as a result.


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## Birchy (Apr 3, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			id take falcoa or levendowski before rooney
		
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Possibly Falcao just. Lewendowski (spelling lol) is vastly overrated though, nowhere near as good an all round player as Rooney imo.


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## Piece (Apr 3, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Possibly Falcao just. *Lewendowski (spelling lol)* is vastly overrated though, nowhere near as good an all round player as Rooney imo.
		
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For all, its *Lewandowski*


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Interesting thing about English football, you either support Manchester United or you don't.The ABU suggestion is alive and well on this thread.

And as for the suggestion world class means you'd get into a world XI no matter what, meaning there can only ever be XI world class players at any one time is weird...I think the bayern goalie is world class but also the man utd goalie, so what do I do?

I think Xavi and Busquets are world class but also Gerrard and Kroos, would Zlatan get a game for Barca?Obviously not as they'd not replace Messi, but he's world class, isn't he?Bale is world class but no one would drop Iniesta from the left side,would they?Would you replace Saurez with Aguero?Who's world class and who's not then?

Rooney is excellent, if he wasn't such a cave man I'd imagine PSG and Real would have tried to sign him by now,and they only sign world class players
		
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World class can be any definition a person wants 

I believe it is used far too often 

Gerrard is no longer a world class player 

World class should be reserved for the top of the tree players right now but the definition gets diluted 

Kroos for example is a very good player - but nowhere near the likes of Xavi or Iniesta 

Busquests is top quality - world class ? Not for me 

De Gea world class ? Not in a million years.

By saying someone isn't world class doesn't mean they aren't good - it just means they aren't at the top of the tree

My current world class list would be 

Neuer 
Dante
Kompany
Lahm
Alba
Xavi
Iniesta 
Messi
Ibrahimovic
Suarez
Ronaldo

They are the players that are right at the top of the tree


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 3, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			Don't get involved, don't get involved... I promised myself I wouldn't get into football debate on here....
		
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:rofl: :rofl: 

Me too on this one I'm just observing!


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## Piece (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My current world class list would be 

Neuer 
Dante
Kompany
Lahm
Alba
Xavi
Iniesta 
Messi
Ibrahimovic
Suarez
Ronaldo
		
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Mine (similar!): 

Courtois
Alves
Dante
Kompany
Alba
Xavi
Iniesta 
Messi
Lavezzi
Suarez
Ronaldo


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## matts1984 (Apr 3, 2014)

He has been off the pace for a few years now. Not since he scored that overhead volley 2 seasons ago has he been really world class.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			World class can be any definition a person wants 

I believe it is used far too often 

Gerrard is no longer a world class player 

World class should be reserved for the top of the tree players right now but the definition gets diluted 

Kroos for example is a very good player - but nowhere near the likes of Xavi or Iniesta 

Busquests is top quality - world class ? Not for me 

De Gea world class ? Not in a million years.

By saying someone isn't world class doesn't mean they aren't good - it just means they aren't at the top of the tree

My current world class list would be 

Neuer 
Dante
Kompany
Lahm
Alba
Xavi
Iniesta 
Messi
Ibrahimovic
Suarez
Ronaldo

They are the players that are right at the top of the tree
		
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But Gerrard this season is performing a role for the team like never before?Just becuase he's not smashing them in every week doesn't mean he's not world class?...that pass at fulham won't be bettered this season,anywhere..world class.
Busquets is one of the 1st picks for Barca and Spain but not world class?

Dante and Kompany both superior to the PSG centre back?Suarez superior to Aguero or Rooney?..neither are more adaptable, that's for sure, and that's probably where Rooney falls down...he's too adaptable, too able to play left/right/10/9..Suarez and Ibra can't do that...so is Rooney MORE world class...I think he could play centre back, could Suarez or Aguero?


Cannae believe I'm defending Rooney against English folk....


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 3, 2014)

Andrea Pirlo, world class


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## socky (Apr 3, 2014)

Personally I think Rooney is just outside the top bracket of players that you'd class 'world class' but he's right at the top of the next bracket.

You ever noticed how completely one footed he is?

Saying that he'll go on to be Englands leading scorer I think, something Owen should have done.


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## adam6177 (Apr 3, 2014)

Gareth said:



			So the over-head kick in the Manchester Derby doesn't count?

I'm far from a Manchester United fan, but the lad  has talent.
		
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Sorry, just been in a stupidly long meeting......

That overhead kick looked better than it actually was.....watch it again and tell me it doesn't come off the middle of his shin.  He mis hit the shot, that's all there is to it.


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## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Is Rooney playing solo in the world cup?

As a team England aren't up to the standard. We all accept that. 


That's not what the thread questions though 

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Did you read the article?

Here's what I was referring to - 

_But Barton said he believes Rooney falling short of his potential was part of a wider problem within English football at large, adding that Roy Hodgson's England side have "no chance at the World Cup," and that "no one believes we can win it - the manager, the media, the players."_

He's right there too isn't he!


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 3, 2014)

adam6177 said:



			He is one of the most over hyped English players of all time.

On the rare occasion he does something "special" its against mediocre teams.  He goes missing in big games and isn't consistent. 

Sorry, but the white pele he aint.
		
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He's no Zidane. But he is the 5th top England scorer of all time & UTD's 3rd(will probably end up topping both)so maybe not so over hyped.


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## mcbroon (Apr 3, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			But Gerrard this season is performing a role for the team like never before?Just becuase he's not smashing them in every week doesn't mean he's not world class?...that pass at fulham won't be bettered this season,anywhere..world class.
Busquets is one of the 1st picks for Barca and Spain but not world class?

Dante and Kompany both superior to the PSG centre back?Suarez superior to Aguero or Rooney?..neither are more adaptable, that's for sure, and that's probably where Rooney falls down...he's too adaptable, too able to play left/right/10/9..Suarez and Ibra can't do that...so is Rooney MORE world class...I think he could play centre back, could Suarez or Aguero?


Cannae believe I'm defending Rooney against English folk....
		
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I'm with you on this.  Two Scots defending Rooney against his own, who would have thought it?

Rooney suffers from comparison to a player that doesn't exist - the one that people thought he would become when he first burst onto the scene.  He's maybe not the player we once thought he might be.  Sometimes he tries to do too much, which blunts his effectiveness.  Sometimes he sacrifices himself for the team, like he did with Ronaldo was still at Utd, so his performances are less eye-catching.  I'd probably agree that maybe he hasn't achieved his full potential but he's still a gifted all-round footballer.


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## adam6177 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			He's no Zidane. But he is the 5th top England scorer of all time & UTD's 3rd(will probably end up topping both)so maybe not so over hyped.
		
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He's a good player, don't get me wrong.... he's just not as good as the media say he is.  He's like the great white hope to England....well I'm sorry, but a few flashes of what might have been over a 10 year career don't make you world class and definitely don't make you the talisman for a nation.


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## MadAdey (Apr 3, 2014)

I would never say Rooney is overated or that he is not a good player. I just hate the way people use the phrase for nearly every player in Europe. 

To me every generation of footballers have those few players that just stand out above all others and they are the ones I would call "World Class". The players of this generation would be people like Messi and Ronaldo, before that you are talking about Zidane and Henry and so on. 

I look at players along the lines of this, if you had an unlimited amount of money how much would you pay for him? Ronaldo and Messi could fetch Â£100M Rooney probably not much more than Â£30M. Antoher way I rate players is if I had to choose 2 teams to play each other of anyone in the world who would be in it? Would Rooney make it into your team? Maybe onto your bench............


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			But Gerrard this season is performing a role for the team like never before?Just becuase he's not smashing them in every week doesn't mean he's not world class?...that pass at fulham won't be bettered this season,anywhere..world class.
Busquets is one of the 1st picks for Barca and Spain but not world class?

Dante and Kompany both superior to the PSG centre back?Suarez superior to Aguero or Rooney?..neither are more adaptable, that's for sure, and that's probably where Rooney falls down...he's too adaptable, too able to play left/right/10/9..Suarez and Ibra can't do that...so is Rooney MORE world class...I think he could play centre back, could Suarez or Aguero?


Cannae believe I'm defending Rooney against English folk....
		
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Rooney being able to play CB doesn't make him world class - Suarez is a far more talented player than Rooney and produces on the pitch. Owen Hargreaves could play in various roles - doesn't make him World Class

Rooney is very good but he isn't at that top level of very good players

Gerrard was poor in the first half of the season 

I have given my list of who I believe are currently the world class players at the moment 

I believe your list would be different and be a lot more 

World Class should be the very best of the best in their position - Rooney isn't. 

As someone has said Rooney wouldn't walk into every team around .

Rooney is a quality player - he is very good , excellent 

But he isn't at the top of the tree - he isn't in the same class as Messi , Ronaldo , Suarez and a few others mentioned.


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 3, 2014)

My hatred of Joey Barton knows no bounds. Mainly cos he always quotes The Smiths / philosophers in an attempt to be classed as 'intellectual'  and I really like The Smiths, and anyone that stubbs a cigarette out in someone's eye can never be classed as intellectual.

However, unfortunately, I agree with a large part of what he's said here:

1) Rooney's lifestyle, arrogance and indulgence have ensured that he's never really fulfilled the potential which he undoubtedly had. Ronaldo has worked his nuts of to constantly improve and is given a huge amount of credit by those who worked with him and Man U and now Madrid for doing so.

2) Nobody believes we can win the World Cup. That said, I'd much rather us field a young team of hungry, ambitious players who would kill to wear that shirt than some of those who look like they can no longer give a toss. Genuinely, I'd play: Barkley, Lallana, Ward-Prowse, Shaw, Townsend over people like Cole, Lampard, Milner etc. Might as well build for the future if we're going to write it off before we start!

3) He does say, that on ability alone, Rooney could have been world class which I agree with. However, to be honest after being paid Â£300k a week to play for a team struggling to make european football this year, it's easy to see how his ambition may have waned.


If we did play that young team for England, then I think it might actually give Rooney a kick up arris to get playing proper football again and stop trying to be the hero he is desperate to be for United, playing every position on the pitch.

FWIW, my England team:

Hart
Shaw, Cahill, Jags, Baines
Lallana, Gerrard, Barkley, Townsend
Rooney, Rodriguez/Lambert/Carroll/Crouch


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

My Spurs mate says that Townsend is massively overrated - been found out a bit 

Sterling on performances alone should be in any England team , and Sturridge is a guarantee starter and isn't Shaw a LB


If they did concentrate on more youth ( like Germany did ) and brought in a manager with a bit more tactical knowledge about him then England might be more attractive to watch.

I would play 

Hart

Johnson
Jagelkia
Cahill
Baines

Gerrard
Barkley
Wilshire

Sterling
Sturridge
Rooney


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 3, 2014)

Of current players Ronaldo & Messi are in a league of their own. IMO Rooney would be in the next league with the likes of Bale,Aguero,Ibra,Hazard,Suarez,Falcou.......


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My Spurs mate says that Townsend is massively overrated - been found out a bit 

Sterling on performances alone should be in any England team , and Sturridge is a guarantee starter and isn't Shaw a LB


If they did concentrate on more youth ( like Germany did ) and brought in a manager with a bit more tactical knowledge about him then England might be more attractive to watch.

I would play 

Hart

Johnson
Jagelkia
Cahill
Baines

Gerrard
Barkley
Wilshire

Sterling
Sturridge
Rooney
		
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Townsend seems to play better for England than he does for spurs . I reckon Sterling will get the nod before him tho.


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would play 

Hart

Johnson
Jagelkia
Cahill
Baines

Gerrard
Barkley
Wilshire

Sterling
Sturridge
Rooney
		
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Johnson shouldn't be anywhere near an England team. He's not a defender. He can't tackle and he can't head a ball. There's at least 3 better English right backs who have somehow been overlooked at his expense.

And I'm honestly not being anti-Liverpool as I love watching the team going forward at the moment, but don't think that either Sturridge or Sterling are good enough goal scorers. If you gave the same one-on-one opportunity to those two vs someone like Defoe or Crouch, I'd back the latter two to finish substantially more. Sturridge is playing well but thriving in a Liverpool team who are brimming with confidence thanks to the quality of Gerrard, Coutinho and Suarez. That said, wouldn't be hugely disappointed if he got the nod for the first game. And credit where its due for the goals he's scored.

Other than that, love Wilshire but thought he was injured, and if not would have the same as you with him over Townsend


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2014)

I also think Rooney is a "world class" player but I have a different definition of "world class". He wouldn't make my current World XI but that doesn't stop him from being world class.

It's far to strict a distinction to make it simply the best player in the world in each position. Switch it to golf for a moment, who are the genuinely "world class" golfers? I don't think it's only Tiger Woods. (World #1)


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would play 

Clemence

Johnson
P Thompson
J Carragher
R Jones

Gerrard
Henderson, 
Sterling
Sturridge, Owen, Fowler
		
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 Fixed that for you Phil.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Johnson shouldn't be anywhere near an England team. He's not a defender. He can't tackle and he can't head a ball. There's at least 3 better English right backs who have somehow been overlooked at his expense.

And I'm honestly not being anti-Liverpool as I love watching the team going forward at the moment, but don't think that either Sturridge or Sterling are good enough goal scorers. If you gave the same one-on-one opportunity to those two vs someone like Defoe or Crouch, I'd back the latter two to finish substantially more. Sturridge is playing well but thriving in a Liverpool team who are brimming with confidence thanks to the quality of Gerrard, Coutinho and Suarez. That said, wouldn't be hugely disappointed if he got the nod for the first game. And credit where its due for the goals he's scored.

Other than that, love Wilshire but thought he was injured, and if not would have the same as you with him over Townsend
		
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Sturridge hasn't stopped scoring for over 18 months now and also carried the team when we didn't have Suarez 

Defoe and Crouch are part of an England past - neither have done anything over the past 2 years maybe more 

Sturridge has 34 goals in 44 games since last Jan. Sterling right now is on fire - there isn't a wide man in the league playing better , that form will carry straight on into the World Cup. Those two form part of the best strike force in the league at moment. Not picking them would be crazy 

As for Johnson - IMO he gets a bad rep about his defending but it's always bee on very good and certainly has more about him than Walker - he is solid and great at covering, sometimes his final ball isn't great - but wouldn't take anyone else in starting line up.

If Wilshire is injured then would put Lallana in there - you need a creator - Lallana is perfect , two footed , great eye for a pass.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Fixed that for you Phil.

Click to expand...


 

Nice !!!!


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As for Johnson - IMO he gets a bad rep about his defending but it's always bee on very good and certainly has more about him than Walker - he is solid and great at covering, sometimes his final ball isn't great - but wouldn't take anyone else in starting line up.

If Wilshire is injured then would put Lallana in there - you need a creator - Lallana is perfect , two footed , great eye for a pass.
		
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Lallana was in my team already, with Barkley and Gerrard.

The problem I have with Johnson is that you can get away with not being the world's best defender, if you contribute something going forwards. Roberto Carlos and on a more realistic level Riise when he played for Liverpool, were positive influences going forward with an end product.

If you're not going to do that, you need to be a solid defender, a la Gary Neville. You can't be an average defender and average going forward and be hailed as the best right-back in the country.

FWIW I'd pick Micah Richards, Michael Lowton, Nathaniel Clyne or Kyle Walker over Johnson. But aware that Johnson's experience will put him above the others in the England frame.

Happy to concede the point on Sturridge (first time that's ever been said on here?) but he's still not England quality for me. It's hard when you compare him to the quality of finishers we've had in the last 15 years (Shearer, Fowler, Owen, even Andy Cole in his prime) but for me, still has to prove himself when it matters, without the comfort blanket of that Liverpool team creating him a shedload of chances each game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Lallana was in my team already, with Barkley and Gerrard.

The problem I have with Johnson is that you can get away with not being the world's best defender, if you contribute something going forwards. Roberto Carlos and on a more realistic level Riise when he played for Liverpool, were positive influences going forward with an end product.

If you're not going to do that, you need to be a solid defender, a la Gary Neville. You can't be an average defender and average going forward and be hailed as the best right-back in the country.

FWIW I'd pick Micah Richards, Michael Lowton, Nathaniel Clyne or Kyle Walker over Johnson. But aware that Johnson's experience will put him above the others in the England frame.

Happy to concede the point on Sturridge (first time that's ever been said on here?) but he's still not England quality for me. It's hard when you compare him to the quality of finishers we've had in the last 15 years (Shearer, Fowler, Owen, even Andy Cole in his prime) but for me, still has to prove himself when it matters, without the comfort blanket of that Liverpool team creating him a shedload of chances each game.
		
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Will have to agree to disagree on Johnson - I'm just glad he is back for us because he is certainly contributing going forward for us - has a great understanding with Sterling

As for Sturridge - he isn't the same quality as Shearer , Owen or Fowler 

Cole only scored 1 goal in 15 games for England - Sturridge already has 3 in 9 and what is "England Quality" - right now there is no England striker more clinical than Sturridge , he is the one Englishman in the scoring charts - the facts back him up. I actually thought he wasn't good enough when we bought him - his performances have proven me very wrong


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Is this the same Joey Barton who plays for QPR talking about professional mentality?

The same one who put a lit cigar out on a team mate at a Christmas Party?

The same chap who was in court a while back for assault?

The bloke charged with criminal damage and assault on a taxi driver?

The chap who ran over a pedestrian in Liverpool city centre at 2am in the morning?

..... And has only 1 (full) England cap.

He's hardly whiter than white is he, or the next Pele himself is he? People in glass houses and all that.
		
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So he's not entitled to an opinion?


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## MadAdey (Apr 3, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Happy to concede the point on Sturridge (first time that's ever been said on here?) but he's still not England quality for me. It's hard when you compare him to the quality of finishers we've had in the last 15 years (Shearer, Fowler, Owen, even Andy Cole in his prime) but for me, still has to prove himself when it matters, without the comfort blanket of that Liverpool team creating him a shedload of chances each game.
		
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I find this a very strange statement to make. What is England quality then? 20 in 24 games this season, what is even more impressive is the fact that he is not the main target man upfront so getting all the chances as SUarez has got 29 in 27, so Sturridge is having to take chances when he gets them.

Ok I would not say he is the most complete all round striker the country has ever seen, but he is quick and will put it away when the chance comes. He is second in the Premier League scoring charts behind Suarez after all said and done. The list of English players goals look like this:

Sturridge    20
Rooney      15
Gerrard      11
Lambert     10
Welbeck     9
Crouch       8
Johnson      8
Ramsey      8

So, who you going to pick as our England partnership then? If Woy goes with 2 upfront which I am sure he will, then obviously Rooney will be one, that means you need someone who is going to push on the last defender and give Rooney space to work. A player that is fast that will make teams defend that 10 yards deeper for fear of it.


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cole only scored 1 goal in 15 games for England - Sturridge already has 3 in 9 and what is "England Quality" - right now there is no England striker more clinical than Sturridge , he is the one Englishman in the scoring charts - the facts back him up. I actually thought he wasn't good enough when we bought him - his performances have proven me very wrong
		
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Which may be true, but two of those were in 7-0 and 4-1 results against San Marino and Montenegro, and t'other in an awful pointless friendly. I agree to disagree though, and am happy to give him a chance at the World Cup. Lord knows I want him to do well, I just have a feeling he wont. 

In fairness, Cole didn't get a fair cop with England but is still the second-highest scorer in premier league history, ahead of Henry, Owen, Fowler, Rooney etc. 

Anywho's off to the club for a go with me new putter


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## drawboy (Apr 3, 2014)

As much as I detest him as I am from Leeds and have no time for MU (spit) I think Rooney is world class providing he has world class service something he isn't getting anymore at manchester and he rarely gets, less so these days in an England shirt. Give him the balls he needs and he will score all day and night.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Which may be true, but two of those were in 7-0 and 4-1 results against San Marino and Montenegro, and t'other in an awful pointless friendly. I agree to disagree though, and am happy to give him a chance at the World Cup. Lord knows I want him to do well, I just have a feeling he wont. 

In fairness, Cole didn't get a fair cop with England but is still the second-highest scorer in premier league history, ahead of Henry, Owen, Fowler, Rooney etc. 

Anywho's off to the club for a go with me new putter 

Click to expand...

Cole couldn't hack it at international level :thup:

1 goal in 15 games 

Enjoy the new putter


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 3, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			So, who you going to pick as our England partnership then?
		
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Honestly? Rooney and Carroll. Whilst Carroll isn't as good a striker as Sturridge, I feel he would add more to the team as a whole and would be hungry to work his arse off. He gives us a target up front and with the awful football we play which inevitably leads to a hoof, we might as well have someone in their half who can win a header and bring the other forwards into the game. 

If not Carroll, then Crouch or Lambert. I don't want us to play long ball football, but at the end of the day we're going to play the odd long ball, and there's no point getting lads to put balls in the box if you haven't got someone in there to win the headers.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I find this a very strange statement to make. What is England quality then? 20 in 24 games this season, what is even more impressive is the fact that he is not the main target man upfront so getting all the chances as SUarez has got 29 in 27, so Sturridge is having to take chances when he gets them.

Ok I would not say he is the most complete all round striker the country has ever seen, but he is quick and will put it away when the chance comes. He is second in the Premier League scoring charts behind Suarez after all said and done. The list of English players goals look like this:

Sturridge    20
Rooney      15
Gerrard      11
Lambert     10
Welbeck     9
Crouch       8
Johnson      8
Ramsey      8

So, who you going to pick as our England partnership then? If Woy goes with 2 upfront which I am sure he will, then obviously Rooney will be one, that means you need someone who is going to push on the last defender and give Rooney space to work. A player that is fast that will make teams defend that 10 yards deeper for fear of it.
		
Click to expand...


Ramseys welsh


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Honestly? Rooney and Carroll. Whilst Carroll isn't as good a striker as Sturridge, I feel he would add more to the team as a whole and would be hungry to work his arse off. He gives us a target up front and with the awful football we play which inevitably leads to a hoof, we might as well have someone in their half who can win a header and bring the other forwards into the game. 

If not Carroll, then Crouch or Lambert. I don't want us to play long ball football, but at the end of the day we're going to play the odd long ball, and there's no point getting lads to put balls in the box if you haven't got someone in there to win the headers.
		
Click to expand...

Carroll , Crouch and Lambert ! 

What other top international team play with those type of players as their main striker ? 

That just sets up for humping balls forward to big lumps to knock down - the style of football that gets a team nowhere and the style of football that needs it be dragged out of England. We got rid of Carroll for a reason and replaced him with Sturridge - because we wanted to pass the ball

When you have creators like Lallana , Barkley , Wilshire , Sterling in your team you don't by pass them by looking for the big guy , you get the ball going through midfield to get the front men making intelligent runs and balls played into the channels and around the corner , the strikers dragging their markers out wide to leave gaps for players to burst in. 

The reason why England get nowhere is because they have players like Carroll as plan A ! The disease of "getting the ball into the box" - it's awful turgid football with zero success !


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Ramseys welsh
		
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Poor bloke


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I find this a very strange statement to make. What is England quality then? 20 in 24 games this season, what is even more impressive is the fact that he is not the main target man upfront so getting all the chances as SUarez has got 29 in 27, so Sturridge is having to take chances when he gets them.

Ok I would not say he is the most complete all round striker the country has ever seen, but he is quick and will put it away when the chance comes. He is second in the Premier League scoring charts behind Suarez *after all said and done. The list of English players goals look like this*:

Sturridge    20
Rooney      15
Gerrard      11
Lambert     10
Welbeck     9
Crouch       8
Johnson      8
*Ramsey      8*

So, who you going to pick as our England partnership then? If Woy goes with 2 upfront which I am sure he will, then obviously Rooney will be one, that means you need someone who is going to push on the last defender and give Rooney space to work. A player that is fast that will make teams defend that 10 yards deeper for fear of it.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2014)

drawboy said:



			As much as I detest him as I am from Leeds and have no time for MU (spit) I think Rooney is world class providing he has world class service something he isn't getting anymore at manchester and he rarely gets, less so these days in an England shirt. Give him the balls he needs and he will score all day and night.
		
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Lol Leeds [spit] at least you know your football mate.
Rooney is world class as a striker simples.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Carroll , Crouch and Lambert ! 

What other top international team play with those type of players as their main striker ? 

That just sets up for humping balls forward to big lumps to knock down - the style of football that gets a team nowhere and the style of football that needs it be dragged out of England. We got rid of Carroll for a reason and replaced him with Sturridge - because we wanted to pass the ball

When you have creators like Lallana , Barkley , Wilshire , Sterling in your team you don't by pass them by looking for the big guy , you get the ball going through midfield to get the front men making intelligent runs and balls played into the channels and around the corner , the strikers dragging their markers out wide to leave gaps for players to burst in. 

The reason why England get nowhere is because they have players like Carroll as plan A ! The disease of "getting the ball into the box" - it's awful turgid football with zero success !
		
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Spot on.
I would take Carroll though just incase we are 1-0 down with 10 minutes to go.
Also I hear he makes a nice cuppa


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## PieMan (Apr 3, 2014)

IMO Rooney would struggle to get into the top 20 players in the world. From what I have seen, Barkley has the potential to be the first English player since Gazza to be truly a world great.

The last English player to get anywhere near a 'World XI' in recent years is Ashley Cole. For about 7-10 years there was no better left back in world football.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Carroll , Crouch and Lambert ! 

What other top international team play with those type of players as their main striker ? 

That just sets up for humping balls forward to big lumps to knock down - the style of football that gets a team nowhere and the style of football that needs it be dragged out of England. We got rid of Carroll for a reason and replaced him with Sturridge - because we wanted to pass the ball

When you have creators like Lallana , Barkley , Wilshire , Sterling in your team you don't by pass them by looking for the big guy , you get the ball going through midfield to get the front men making intelligent runs and balls played into the channels and around the corner , the strikers dragging their markers out wide to leave gaps for players to burst in. 

The reason why England get nowhere is because they have players like Carroll as plan A ! The disease of "getting the ball into the box" - it's awful turgid football with zero success !
		
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Spot on there. Wasn't the most common pass in the last Euros for England Hart to Carroll?


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## A1ex (Apr 3, 2014)

Is Rooney world class? Yes. Has been for about 10 years and the goals/assists and trophies prove that. Not many other strikers can boast of averaging 20 plus goals for a decade in a major league.

Has Rooney made the absolute most of his talent? No. Clearly hasn't kept himself in the best condition and worked hard enough on his weak points. 


He'd walk into the Real side over Benzema, the Bayern one over Manzukic, Barcelona one over Naymar/Sanchez etc.


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## jimbob.someroo (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Carroll , Crouch and Lambert ! 

What other top international team play with those type of players as their main striker ? 

That just sets up for humping balls forward to big lumps to knock down - the style of football that gets a team nowhere and the style of football that needs it be dragged out of England. We got rid of Carroll for a reason and replaced him with Sturridge - because we wanted to pass the ball

When you have creators like Lallana , Barkley , Wilshire , Sterling in your team you don't by pass them by looking for the big guy , you get the ball going through midfield to get the front men making intelligent runs and balls played into the channels and around the corner , the strikers dragging their markers out wide to leave gaps for players to burst in. 

The reason why England get nowhere is because they have players like Carroll as plan A ! The disease of "getting the ball into the box" - it's awful turgid football with zero success !
		
Click to expand...

Belgium play with Benteke and Lukaku who aren't massively dissimilar to Rooney and Carroll in terms of style and the team play much  better football than England. The strikers don't define the style of play, the creative players you've mentioned do. There's no reason England couldn't play attractive football with Carroll on the team, most of that play would be behind him anyway, it just gives you a credible option for a cross/corner/free kick in both defence and attack. He's decent on the floor and holds the ball up better than anyone else we've got.

And, was more realistically 'dropped' after being injured for a couple of years. Had he been fully fit, I've no doubt he'd have had much more time on the pitch for England.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Belgium play with Benteke and Lukaku who aren't massively dissimilar to Rooney and Carroll in terms of style and the team play much  better football than England. The strikers don't define the style of play, the creative players you've mentioned do. There's no reason England couldn't play attractive football with Carroll on the team, most of that play would be behind him anyway, it just gives you a credible option for a cross/corner/free kick in both defence and attack. He's decent on the floor and holds the ball up better than anyone else we've got.

And, was more realistically 'dropped' after being injured for a couple of years. Had he been fully fit, I've no doubt he'd have had much more time on the pitch for England.
		
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Belgium also have wonderful creative players behind and don't play the two as target men 

Both Lukaku and Benteke are very good on the floor - players like Carroll are miles away from those pair in terms of style 

With Carroll in the team the ball gets lumped up - that's how West Ham play with him because that's his strengths , that's how a newcastle played with him - he is a good possible option to throw on in the last 5 mins when 1 down. 

More time on the pitch with Carroll in the team would mean more balls lumped up and more awful football from England.


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## Robobum (Apr 3, 2014)

There's a fair bit of drinking gone on before typing some of these posts chaps!!!!

Back in the armchairs now, I'll get you a beer


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Robobum said:



*There's a fair bit of drinking gone on *before typing some of these posts chaps!!!!

Back in the armchairs now, I'll get you a beer
		
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Mainly from Rooney


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## richart (Apr 3, 2014)

Rooney was a world class prospect when a teenager, but he seemed to peak when he was about 20 and hasn't improved since. In fact he has gone backwards, as he seems to have lost some pace.

I think Hazard has the talent to be a world class player. Think of the assists he would have if he had a decent striker in front of him.


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## MadAdey (Apr 3, 2014)

richart said:



			Rooney was a world class prospect when a teenager, but he seemed to peak when he was about 20 and hasn't improved since. In fact he has gone backwards, as he seems to have lost some pace.

I think Hazard has the talent to be a world class player. Think of the assists he would have if he had a decent striker in front of him.
		
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I would love to see him playing behind Suarez and Sturridge, I know not many other fans in the league would like it though.


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## MadAdey (Apr 3, 2014)

I know we have sort of gone off topic with this thread now, but I think that Woy has such an obvious line up infront of him, but can he see it? 4-2-3-1, that is what a lot of teams are playing in the modern game. You go Sterling left, Sturridge right and Rooney in the middle. IT has to work doesn't it? Those 2 are in fine form playing that way at Liverpool and Rooney is a similar style of striker to Suarez, so it would work IMO. 

Now stick Gerrard in one of the holding midfield roles, like he plays at Liverpool, that would get the best out of him. Some creative who can pick a pass in the attacking midfield position and I thikn we might have a chance of playing some good football.


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 3, 2014)

We all list Attacking players when talking about the best players in the world,but what about the likes of Maldini? He's got to be one of the greatest players ever. 
Makelele was also world class but didn't stand out as much as the likes of Ronaldo & Messi.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			We all list Attacking players when talking about the best players in the world,but what about the likes of Maldini? He's got to be one of the greatest players ever. 
Makelele was also world class but didn't stand out as much as the likes of Ronaldo & Messi.
		
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Both were world class players

As were players like Baresi

Albertini
Cannavaro
Guardiloa


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 3, 2014)

I think overall Rooney has shown flashes of being a world class player. He was also world class in that season when he scored a shed load of goals for United about 3 years ago, after Ronaldo left,when he played as an out and out striker. Has he been world class for 7-8 seasons-no. Only a smidgeon below it for me though. 

It maybe begs the bigger question, is it possible to be a world class striker for many seasons in the Premiership? With the defenders being allowed to get away with more than our continental counterparts, lack of a winter break, 38 game seasons, 2/3 cup competitions, playing in all weathers. (I still wouldn't change any of the aforementioned BTW, except maybe for the winter break).The ballon d'or always does seem to go to Italy or Spain,though.

Maybe Rooney for Real Madrid might have made him take that very small step, I think so anyway.


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## NorfolkShaun (Apr 3, 2014)

I do not think anyone can say Rooney is a bad player, he really could of been so much more though. 

He needed to move on when Ronaldo did as to me he is not as good now as he was when younger. This may be down to who he is now playing with and in some respects playing second fiddle to RVP (when fit) since he joined Man U. Signing his new contract is a bad move for Rooney he needed a new challenge he will now meander into retirement on his contract and never for-fill his potential

Is he world class? for me not at the moment as strikers go there are quite a few ahead of him to get in a world XI. To me the definition of world class is would he get in a world XI and the answer is no not even on the bench.


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 3, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Lol Leeds *ha ha ha ha*at least you know your football mate.
Rooney is world class as a striker simples.
		
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That's better never mind this spit business :lol:


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 3, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Belgium also have *  wonderful creative players.   behind and don't play the two as target men 

Both Lukaku and Benteke are very good on the floor - players like Carroll are miles away from those pair in terms of style 

With Carroll in the team the ball gets lumped up - that's how West Ham play with him because that's his strengths , that's how a newcastle played with him - he is a good possible option to throw on in the last 5 mins when 1 down. 

More time on the pitch with Carroll in the team would mean more balls lumped up and more awful football from England.*

Click to expand...

*


You've obviously not been watching much of fellaini this year !!!!!!  :rofl:*


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 3, 2014)

pbrown7582 said:



			You've obviously not been watching much of fellaini this year !!!!!!  :rofl:
		
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Or Benteke


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Or Benteke 

Click to expand...

He won't be playing anyway now out injured with Achilles gone.


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## evahakool (Apr 3, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			My hatred of Joey Barton knows no bounds. Mainly cos he always quotes The Smiths / philosophers in an attempt to be classed as 'intellectual'  and I really like The Smiths, and anyone that stubbs a cigarette out in someone's eye can never be classed as intellectual.

However, unfortunately, I agree with a large part of what he's said here:


2) Nobody believes we can win the World Cup. That said, I'd much rather us field a young team of hungry, ambitious players who would kill to wear that shirt than some of those who look like they can no longer give a toss. Genuinely, I'd play: Barkley, Lallana, Ward-Prowse, Shaw, Townsend over people like Cole, Lampard, Milner etc. Might as well build for the future if we're going to write it off before we start!
		
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No Rooneys  not world class ,great player but not quite at the top.

Oh how I agree with these thoughts on the England squad , don't think there are many people who think we will even get out of the group, with Hodgson in charge this is going to be a very predictable boring World Cup for England.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2014)

I think the pace of Sturridge and Sterling will frighten defences and give Rooney plenty of opportunities. It is the other end of the park I'm concerned about. We won't keep clean sheets. Rooney in my opinion is a good player but lacks that certain quality that sets the greats apart.


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## Andy808 (Apr 3, 2014)

Of course he's world class that's why he's being paid Â£300K a week. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Over head kick was an overhead shin and the halfway line goal was in very windy conditions so the goalie stood no chance once he had picked the line he thought the ball was traveling for it to move to the other side of the goal. 
No he's not world class, never has been and never will be.


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 4, 2014)

Andy808 said:



			Of course he's *Got a world class agent * that's why he's being paid Â£300K a week. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Over head kick was an overhead shin and the halfway line goal was in very windy conditions so the goalie stood no chance once he had picked the line he thought the ball was traveling for it to move to the other side of the goal. 
No he's not world class, never has been and never will be.
		
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fixed that for you :rofl:


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## Beezerk (Apr 4, 2014)

jimbob.someroo said:



			My hatred of Joey Barton knows no bounds. Mainly cos he always quotes The Smiths / philosophers in an attempt to be classed as 'intellectual'  and I really like The Smiths, and anyone that stubbs a cigarette out in someone's eye can never be classed as intellectual.
		
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Have you heard his interview with Sir Clive Woodward? I caught some of it on Radio 5 last night, I though the came across very well. Gonna download the podcast so I can listen to it in full.
He had some very harsh words for a lot of people but made a lot of sense IMO.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My Spurs mate says that Townsend is massively overrated - been found out a bit 

Sterling on performances alone should be in any England team , and Sturridge is a guarantee starter and isn't Shaw a LB


If they did concentrate on more youth ( like Germany did ) and brought in a manager with a bit more tactical knowledge about him then England might be more attractive to watch.

I would play 

Hart

Johnson
Jagelkia
Cahill
Baines

Gerrard
Barkley
Wilshire

Sterling
Sturridge
Rooney
		
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I agree with that line up except that I don't see lallana? Pretty much every pundit has him nailed down. Sterling IMO will be a sub to use as defences tire. I'd also have Wilshere nowhere near the team. 

As as long as sturridge is played centrally, I'll be happy. He has no interest playing wide and is a waste of space played out there.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I find this a very strange statement to make. What is England quality then? 20 in 24 games this season, what is even more impressive is the fact that he is not the main target man upfront so getting all the chances as SUarez has got 29 in 27, so Sturridge is having to take chances when he gets them.

Ok I would not say he is the most complete all round striker the country has ever seen, but he is quick and will put it away when the chance comes. He is second in the Premier League scoring charts behind Suarez after all said and done. The list of English players goals look like this:

Sturridge    20
Rooney      15
Gerrard      11
Lambert     10
Welbeck     9
Crouch       8
Johnson      8
Ramsey      8

So, who you going to pick as our England partnership then? If Woy goes with 2 upfront which I am sure he will, then obviously Rooney will be one, that means you need someone who is going to push on the last defender and give Rooney space to work. A player that is fast that will make teams defend that 10 yards deeper for fear of it.
		
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I know holes have been picked already, but you appear to have missed Rodriguez with 15 and Lallana with 9. Do they not sound English enough??


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## richart (Apr 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree with that line up except that I don't see lallana? Pretty much every pundit has him nailed down. Sterling IMO will be a sub to use as defences tire. I'd also have Wilshere nowhere near the team. 

As as long as sturridge is played centrally, I'll be happy. He has no interest playing wide and is a waste of space played out there.
		
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 I  also would start with Lallana instead of Sterling, and definitely not Wilshere. He loses the ball too much, and we have to hold on to it more. I would like to see a defensive midfielder, to allow Gerrard to get forward more. Unfortunately we do not seem to have any. Scott Parker, Gareth Barry, getting on a bit, Phil Jones too reckless. We need another Nobby Stiles.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 5, 2014)

richart said:



			I  also would start with Lallana instead of Sterling, and definitely not Wilshere. He loses the ball too much, and we have to hold on to it more. I would like to see a defensive midfielder, to allow Gerrard to get forward more. Unfortunately we do not seem to have any. Scott Parker, Gareth Barry, getting on a bit, Phil Jones too reckless. We need another Nobby Stiles.

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the only English ball winner we really have of any note is jack cork. Unfortunately he hasn't been starting too regular for saints and doesn't grab headlines like our more flamboyant players. I think Gerrard will play quarterback this year. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see Henderson in the middle alongside Barkley. Think defence of Baines, Cahill, Jags and Johnson will pick itself. Then it will be rooney and sturridge up top. With lallana for me, but there are other options, sterling being main contender I suppose,  although Wellbeck is liked (I wouldn't have him on the plane).


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree with that line up except that I don't see lallana? Pretty much every pundit has him nailed down. Sterling IMO will be a sub to use as defences tire. I'd also have Wilshere nowhere near the team. 

As as long as sturridge is played centrally, I'll be happy. He has no interest playing wide and is a waste of space played out there.
		
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Pundits might have Lallana nailed down in the squad but i havent seen many have him in their starting line up - also Woy has had him Sub recently also.

Sterling gets the nod - his form is right up there with the best at the moment - his creativity his pace and also his work rate and defending is superb right now. 

Wilshire is going to be a starter if fit.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Pundits might have Lallana nailed down in the squad but i havent seen many have him in their starting line up - also Woy has had him Sub recently also.

Sterling gets the nod - his form is right up there with the best at the moment - his creativity his pace and also his work rate and defending is superb right now. 

Wilshire is going to be a starter if fit.
		
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We must watch different shows I guess as most I've heard have been talking about who will lose there place to him Lallana. I'm not so sure Wilshere will start. His form has stagnated and I think that Roy likes the idea of combinations in the team. So Henderson and Gerrard would work. As to sterling a form, it's no better than what Lallana has been doing ALL season not six weeks. Lallana is a game changer. Rewatched Sturridge goal from last month for England and see who all the players congratulated. It was the bloke (Lallana) who set it up after Beaton players with a turn in the box. We have plenty of pace wingers. Lallana is our only player remotely continental in terms of touch and control with both feet even Wilshere is all left foot.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			We must watch different shows I guess as most I've heard have been talking about who will lose there place to him Lallana. I'm not so sure Wilshere will start. His form has stagnated and I think that Roy likes the idea of combinations in the team. So Henderson and Gerrard would work. As to sterling a form, it's no better than what Lallana has been doing ALL season not six weeks. Lallana is a game changer. Rewatched Sturridge goal from last month for England and see who all the players congratulated. It was the bloke (Lallana) who set it up after Beaton players with a turn in the box. We have plenty of pace wingers. Lallana is our only player remotely continental in terms of touch and control with both feet even Wilshere is all left foot.
		
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Sterling is currently flying in a team going for the title - he key to that title fight for us - he hasnt just had 6 weeks of form

You use that sort of confidence and form to get the best from the players - Sterling pace will terrify full backs. if England dont start him then its to their detrement - the lad is one of the most exciting players England have produce ( alongside Barkley ) and its about time we just like Germany have done is put these guys straight into the mix - he will be fresh ( as he gets rested every couple of weeks ) and raring to go. 

Lallana is a good player - good with both feet and is involved in a lot of Southamptons good work and has done well on his fleeting appearances for England - he is a tidy player who could become a very good player - think he will need to move on to do that. And getting congratulated for setting up a goal doesnt turn you into an international starter - Carlton Palmer was congratulated once also.

As you are a Saints fan you will go for Lallana just as i will go for Sterling. 

If Wilshire isnt fit i would actually play Lallana behind the front 3 instead but for a wide player i would prefer Sterling to give that width on both sides and pace.


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 5, 2014)

Sterling is a good player in decent form. He'll definitely go to Rio,not sure he'll be a starter tho. Certain parts of his game need improving. 
Isn't this a Rooney thread


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## Papas1982 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sterling is currently flying in a team going for the title - he key to that title fight for us - he hasnt just had 6 weeks of form

You use that sort of confidence and form to get the best from the players - Sterling pace will terrify full backs. if England dont start him then its to their detrement - the lad is one of the most exciting players England have produce ( alongside Barkley ) and its about time we just like Germany have done is put these guys straight into the mix - he will be fresh ( as he gets rested every couple of weeks ) and raring to go. 

Lallana is a good player - good with both feet and is involved in a lot of Southamptons good work and has done well on his fleeting appearances for England - he is a tidy player who could become a very good player - think he will need to move on to do that. And getting congratulated for setting up a goal doesnt turn you into an international starter - Carlton Palmer was congratulated once also.

As you are a Saints fan you will go for Lallana just as i will go for Sterling. 

If Wilshire isnt fit i would actually play Lallana behind the front 3 instead but for a wide player i would prefer Sterling to give that width on both sides and pace.
		
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I agree our team allegiance will alter out opinion. But I don't see sterling playing with anymore confidence just because Liverpool are higher in the league. Being in a better team doesn't mean your default the better player. 
Walcotts pace was gonna terrify all defenders and how's his England career gone. I think if England put all their eggs in one basket (pace). We will be found out again. We need to be able to pace and move too. Out of curiosity, who would you have on the other wing of pace if you place sterling? Because if it's Rooney up top them sturridge out wide it's pointless. He needs to be central or on the bench as he doesn't perform out wide.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree our team allegiance will alter out opinion. But I don't see sterling playing with anymore confidence just because Liverpool are higher in the league. Being in a better team doesn't mean your default the better player. 
Walcotts pace was gonna terrify all defenders and how's his England career gone. I think if England put all their eggs in one basket (pace). We will be found out again. We need to be able to pace and move too. Out of curiosity, who would you have on the other wing of pace if you place sterling? Because if it's Rooney up top them sturridge out wide it's pointless. He needs to be central or on the bench as he doesn't perform out wide.
		
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Sterling isnt just about pace - his pace is a massive added bonus on top of his skill, workrate, closing down and creativity - he has the potential to be a real star. 

He is key in a front three which move and adapt across the front line and part of the most potent forward line in the country currently.

You replace Suarez with Rooney and you have a great front three - they wont stay in their positions - they will interchange like they do at Liverpool - All three can play left , right and as the main striker - some much adaptability and flexibility in the front line. Sterling does that right now alongside Sturridge ( who doesnt just plough through the middle ) and Suarez - Rooney ( when on form - can also slot into the front three ( he did with Tevez and Ronaldo  to great effect ).

Its not about putting the eggs in one basket - if anything its the total opposite and gives us a front three that could well be a massive weapon for England. 

A front three with Sterling,Sturridge and Rooney could actually provide England for an attacking line up that could frighten defenders. 

As for Walcott - his problem has been his injuries but Sterling isnt a Walcott clone.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sterling isnt just about pace - his pace is a massive added bonus on top of his skill, workrate, closing down and creativity - he has the potential to be a real star. 

He is key in a front three which move and adapt across the front line and part of the most potent forward line in the country currently.

You replace Suarez with Rooney and you have a great front three - they wont stay in their positions - they will interchange like they do at Liverpool - All three can play left , right and as the main striker - some much adaptability and flexibility in the front line. Sterling does that right now alongside Sturridge ( who doesnt just plough through the middle ) and Suarez - Rooney ( when on form - can also slot into the front three ( he did with Tevez and Ronaldo  to great effect ).

Its not about putting the eggs in one basket - if anything its the total opposite and gives us a front three that could well be a massive weapon for England. 

A front three with Sterling,Sturridge and Rooney could actually provide England for an attacking line up that could frighten defenders. 

As for Walcott - his problem has been his injuries but Sterling isnt a Walcott clone.
		
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your original point was that sterling a pace would frighten defenders to death. So whilst your points raised here are valid, the question still needed to be asked. I still think that sturridge considers himself a central player. He may drift wide. But if asked to start out wide it may not work. I hope to be proved wrong. I also think at intl the Liverpool/Newcastle approach won't be successful in Brazil. So hot and humid that ball retention will be key. I agree that that front three could be attractive, but if we don't score early then I think it'll be a struggle after 60 minutes of chasing the ball. We will find out soon enough, but I'll be surprised if we go that Atk minded.


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## Beezerk (Apr 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I think if England put all their eggs in one basket (pace). We will be found out again. We need to be able to pace and move too.
		
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Nail...head.
I'm fed up of hearing that old comment "his pace will scare them", sounds like that dinosaur Trevor Brooking on endless loop!
Pace is fine but...
We cannot pass the ball for any length of time, so getting the ball out  to the "pacey" wide players in the first place rarely happens. when it does happen they run themselves into dead ends and lose the ball.
We have no plan B when the above fails, which it usually does against most teams.
Walcott has pace, for now anyway, but he lacks a good first touch and quality when it really counts.
Rooney should be a great player but looks like he eats too many pies on a Saturday night to be taken seriously nowadays. he is also too individual when he pulls on an England shirt.
We don't have a massive pool of talent to choose from thanks to the FA having dropped the ball for the last 30, 40, 50 odd years. Barkley is a must start for me in the World Cup but I'm sure Woy will play safe and have him warming the bench due to his short sightedness and probably pressure from above.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			your original point was that sterling a pace would frighten defenders to death. So whilst your points raised here are valid, the question still needed to be asked. I still think that sturridge considers himself a central player. He may drift wide. But if asked to start out wide it may not work. I hope to be proved wrong. I also think at intl the Liverpool/Newcastle approach won't be successful in Brazil. So hot and humid that ball retention will be key. I agree that that front three could be attractive, but if we don't score early then I think it'll be a struggle after 60 minutes of chasing the ball. We will find out soon enough, but I'll be surprised if we go that Atk minded.
		
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My inital point was that Sterling has pace that would frighten people but i also posted his other strong points. 

Where players start is no relation to where they play. Front threes around the world at the top teams are now very fluid - the false 9 some call it - Barce,Madrid,Spain,Munich,Germany - the list of successful teams with a fluid front three are growing - thats what Liverpool play - we retain the ball very well and then the front three using clever movement , pace , intelligent runs and outstanding ability create havoc up front. We at times have looked a big venerable at the back through poor defending but that has been mainly at set pieces. 

With a solid back 4 - which England have - plus two great fullbacks - which England have, a creative solid midfield three - which England potentially have in Gerrard plus Barkley plus one more - Henderson/Lallana/Wilshire plus a front three of Sterling, Rooney,Strurridge with players like Rodriuguez ( who is very under rated ) - they have the potential to really cause a few surprises. 

Havent a front three like that isnt "attack minded" and certainly isnt the Newcastle Method. 

The main problem for England is the coach - i very much doubt he has the ability to play like that - i have no doubt Wellbeck will be in the team , plus Carrick and they will look to set up banks of four to be solid.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My inital point was that Sterling has pace that would frighten people but i also posted his other strong points. 

Where players start is no relation to where they play. Front threes around the world at the top teams are now very fluid - the false 9 some call it - Barce,Madrid,Spain,Munich,Germany - the list of successful teams with a fluid front three are growing - thats what Liverpool play - we retain the ball very well and then the front three using clever movement , pace , intelligent runs and outstanding ability create havoc up front. We at times have looked a big venerable at the back through poor defending but that has been mainly at set pieces. 

With a solid back 4 - which England have - plus two great fullbacks - which England have, a creative solid midfield three - which England potentially have in Gerrard plus Barkley plus one more - Henderson/Lallana/Wilshire plus a front three of Sterling, Rooney,Strurridge with players like Rodriuguez ( who is very under rated ) - they have the potential to really cause a few surprises. 

Havent a front three like that isnt "attack minded" and certainly isnt the Newcastle Method. 

The main problem for England is the coach - i very much doubt he has the ability to play like that - i have no doubt Wellbeck will be in the team , plus Carrick and they will look to set up banks of four to be solid.
		
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I think Hodgson will surprise a few. It's no surprise that he's currently watching more saints and Liverpool games than others as both play similar styles. I like the look of Barkley although he is still young and cm usually improve with maturity. Don't think he has an assist to his name yet. I'd defo agree and leave welbeck at home. Maybe with. UTD currently being out of top tier he'll get dropped. I may have been harsh with comparison to Newcastle, unfortunately Rooney although capable of drifting like Suarez will drop too deep as he always does and then we will have a lack of focal point up top. If We could tie a string round rooney and keep him within 30 yards of goal he'd. E a much better asset. He will no doubt break countless records but at what goal ratio. Nowhere near the top strikers of this era where 1:1 is becoming the benchmark.


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 5, 2014)

Rooney missing today & could also miss the Munich game. If UTD have a chance at Munich they need need Rooney fully fit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I think Hodgson will surprise a few. It's no surprise that he's currently watching more saints and Liverpool games than others as both play similar styles. I like the look of Barkley although he is still young and cm usually improve with maturity. Don't think he has an assist to his name yet. I'd defo agree and leave welbeck at home. Maybe with. UTD currently being out of top tier he'll get dropped. I may have been harsh with comparison to Newcastle, unfortunately Rooney although capable of drifting like Suarez will drop too deep as he always does and then we will have a lack of focal point up top. If We could tie a string round rooney and keep him within 30 yards of goal he'd. E a much better asset. He will no doubt break countless records but at what goal ratio. Nowhere near the top strikers of this era where 1:1 is becoming the benchmark.
		
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Rooney will be pushed forward by the likes of Barkley 

But there is also a case for Rooney not to start and put either Lallana or Rodriguez in his place. 

Would certainly like to see it 

Or even have Rooney play in the No10 role infront of Gerrard and an other and have Lallana in the front three

There is so many options available

But there is the Woy factor - and he hasnt ever surprised anyone as yet. He believes his tactics have worked in the past and sticks with them


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## MadAdey (Apr 5, 2014)

My biggest fear is that we are just going to go out with a good old 4-4-2 with a rigid formation that will have no movement and no idea. Players will be too easy to mark and keep control of.

The modern day game is all about free flowing football and movement. I just like the look of Sturridge, Rooney and Sterling. All of those players will just float around the pitch making it difficult to mark and when we get the ball. When you look at Liverpool Sturridge and Sterling are popping up all over he front line, when yo do that then you can't man mark them and you will get times when they will not be picked up and get some space, they do it week in week out. Rooney too is a player that will float all over and can make things happen when he gets the ball. Put someone behind them that is good on the ball and we can have a go at teams.

It is time that England tuned into the modern game and stopped playing in rigid banks of 4 with no movement and wingers that just hug the sideline, modern day players move around the pitch in advanced roles. It can work because Gerrard will stay in position and keep the shape. 

I do not think we have much chance of getting far, but hey why not at least have some fun while we do it. I would prefer to loose 4-2 instead of a boring 1-0. BUt then that is why I love watching Liverpool under Rodgers. After we get knocked out I do not want to look back at another string of boring England matches, moaning about the tactics Woy employed. I want to look back and remember how exciting we were to watch, how they took the game to other teams and had a bloody good go.

Call me stupid, but do you know what. If Woy actually drops the negative defensive tactics and uses all our young players, maybe we can pull off a few surprises. You put the likes of Sterling and BArkley in the team and they will play their heart out. 12 months ago those 2 would never had thought in their wildest dreams they would be playing at the world cup and will go out and enjoy themself.


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 5, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Rooney missing today & could also miss the Munich game. If UTD have a chance at Munich they need need Rooney fully fit.
		
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He'll be there just having a rest today, wasnt needed by the seems the Juan and only seen the magpies off.


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## Snelly (Apr 10, 2014)

He looked a very long way from world class last night.  Had a niggling injury of course but all the same, not great on yet another big occasion.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 10, 2014)

Snelly said:



			He looked a very long way from world class last night.  Had a niggling injury of course but all the same, not great on yet another big occasion.
		
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Have to agree with you there Snelly.

The two chances Rooney had last night he would normally eat them up and put them away.........

It's also worth remembering that he seems to get "Niggling injuries" at around World Cup time. Not making excuses for him but a bit worrying with the WC not far away.


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## Rumpokid (Apr 10, 2014)

As per thread..Not world class,yet allowed to 'earn' 300 k a week, i guess he is on a par with Fellaini,......... who is to blame from the fall from grace of a passing side to a hoof it up front side????


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## evahakool (Apr 10, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			My biggest fear is that we are just going to go out with a good old 4-4-2 with a rigid formation that will have no movement and no idea. Players will be too easy to mark and keep control of.

The modern day game is all about free flowing football and movement. I just like the look of Sturridge, Rooney and Sterling. All of those players will just float around the pitch making it difficult to mark and when we get the ball. When you look at Liverpool Sturridge and Sterling are popping up all over he front line, when yo do that then you can't man mark them and you will get times when they will not be picked up and get some space, they do it week in week out. Rooney too is a player that will float all over and can make things happen when he gets the ball. Put someone behind them that is good on the ball and we can have a go at teams.

It is time that England tuned into the modern game and stopped playing in rigid banks of 4 with no movement and wingers that just hug the sideline, modern day players move around the pitch in advanced roles. It can work because Gerrard will stay in position and keep the shape. 

I do not think we have much chance of getting far, but hey why not at least have some fun while we do it. I would prefer to loose 4-2 instead of a boring 1-0. BUt then that is why I love watching Liverpool under Rodgers. After we get knocked out I do not want to look back at another string of boring England matches, moaning about the tactics Woy employed. I want to look back and remember how exciting we were to watch, how they took the game to other teams and had a bloody good go.

Call me stupid, but do you know what. If Woy actually drops the negative defensive tactics and uses all our young players, maybe we can pull off a few surprises. You put the likes of Sterling and BArkley in the team and they will play their heart out. 12 months ago those 2 would never had thought in their wildest dreams they would be playing at the world cup and will go out and enjoy themself.
		
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That just about sums up what I think as well, with this managers lack of modern day tactics we have no hope for this World Cup.


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