# Most expensive buggy hire ever



## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

This will all make you laugh I have recently slipped a disc Im finding it almost impossible to walk.  As I have made it to the semi final of our winter foursomes and I donâ€™t want to let my partner down, neither of us have ever been up on a board. I thought I would ask my club handicap secretary and our opponents on Tuesday night if I could use a buggy to play the match this Sunday which was the final day the match could be played on. It like most clubs is against the rules to play in comps with a buggy without a medical exemption. 

I provided the club with letter from my Consultant Neurosurgeon to my GP which outlned my symptoms etc. He had sent it to update my GPâ€™s records. 

My opponents of course being good sports said they had no problem with me using a buggy. The small advantage I would gain by using one slightly eclipsed by my having to play with a slipped disc. 

Ahh but no!! the handicap secretary and now the club secretary insisted that I had the official club medical exemption form completed by my GP. Saying it had to be received by Friday before the secretaryâ€™s office closed for the weekend otherwise I would have to play without the buggy and if I used one I would be disqualified. 

With 3 days to get this form signed I contacted my local surgery to see if the GP could sign me off. Not surprisingly the earliest appointment I could get was in two weeks unless of course it was an emergency. I told them it was an emergency I needed this document otherwise I couldnâ€™t play in the semi of the winter foursomes blah blah. The receptionist laughed and politely told me to stop wasting her time. 

Left with no option I callled the handicap secretary said I couldnâ€™t get the paperwork but surely the letter from the consultant would do. No was the very firm reply but I could scratch from the comp as â€˜rules were rulesâ€™ it needed to be the official club form and nothing else. 

Left with no option.  I contacted my  consultant who said he could see me in time to sign the form but unfortunately it would have to be a private consultation and it would cost Â£250.  I had no choice I agreed because I couldnâ€™t bring myself to let my mate down, if it were singles I would have just forfeited. 

I paid up got the letter and sent it to Ms Computer says no at the club. 

So that along with the buggy hire of Â£25 brings the cost of playing a match at my own club to Â£275. Priceless!!! 

I paid less for lunch and 2 rounds at Carnoustie a few weeks ago. 

We better bloody win!

Wish me luck.


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## Hackers76 (Mar 9, 2019)

All the best for the match. I would be looking for a new club as soon as the comp is finished, that kind of inflexibility is ridiculous.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Hackers76 said:



			All the best for the match. I would be looking for a new club as soon as the comp is finished, that kind of inflexibility is ridiculous.
		
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Already looking!!!


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## rudebhoy (Mar 9, 2019)

that's ridiculous, what a pair of jumped up jobsworths. I'd be telling them to stick it and finding a new club.


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## Grant85 (Mar 9, 2019)

Can completely understand your frustrations, but have to give a bit of respect to the club for holding firm. 

Ultimately rules are there and if they let one person do it without the proper paperwork, then someone else might make a similar case for a 36 hole match and gain a clear advantage. 

It's a slippery slope with regards to buggies. For example, it wasn't so long ago that most clubs / courses only allowed trolleys for people with a  doctors note. But ultimately anyone who wanted one could pretty much get one to the point that almost every club just gave in and allowed it. Now it would be unthinkable for all but the likes of St. Andrews to not allow trolleys.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2019)

If a letter from a Consultant, confirming injury, isn't enough to let a player use a buggy then someone, somewhere, is taking things just a bit too seriously.
This is Club Golf..it's not The Open
I'd have told them where they could stick their competition and taking my mate out for a couple of jars.


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## robinthehood (Mar 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Can completely understand your frustrations, but have to give a bit of respect to the club for holding firm.

Ultimately rules are there and if they let one person do it without the proper paperwork, then someone else might make a similar case for a 36 hole match and gain a clear advantage.

It's a slippery slope with regards to buggies. For example, it wasn't so long ago that most clubs / courses only allowed trolleys for people with a  doctors note. But ultimately anyone who wanted one could pretty much get one to the point that almost every club just gave in and allowed it. Now it would be unthinkable for all but the likes of St. Andrews to not allow trolleys.
		
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Sorry no respect at all, the club should be ashamed of themselves and offer to cover the cost of his consultant visit. Too many pompous fools running the game.

What club is it?


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Imurg said:



			If a letter from a Consultant, confirming injury, isn't enough to let a player use a buggy then someone, somewhere, is taking things just a bit too seriously.
This is Club Golf..it's not The Open
I'd have told them where they could stick their competition and taking my mate out for a couple of jars.
		
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Believe me I did think of that but I was so annoyed by it all I wasnâ€™t going to back down.


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## Robin Hood (Mar 9, 2019)

This is the sort of utterly pompous attitudes that gives golf a bad name.
Most golfers and probably all non-golfers would find the situation ridiculous.
I would move clubs. 
Good luck in the comp.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Robin Hood said:



			This is the sort of utterly pompous attitudes that gives golf a bad name.
Most golfers and probably all non-golfers would find the situation ridiculous.
I would move clubs.
Good luck in the comp.
		
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Cheers mate problem is they have me over a barrel all my mates play there. I did think Iâ€™d go all Jerry McGuire â€˜who is with meâ€™  and leave but itâ€™s the best course around.


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## Oldham92 (Mar 9, 2019)

All they had to was accept it and say to any other member that you had the form completed. Would have made a lot more sense.

I'd name and shame the club though


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## Robin Hood (Mar 9, 2019)

Are the two numptys honorary positions or employees of the club.
If the former then I would try and get them voted off next AGM.
I bet all the members are on your side.


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## Sharktooth (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			Cheers mate problem is they have me over a barrel all my mates play there. I did think Iâ€™d go all Jerry McGuire â€˜who is with meâ€™  and leave but itâ€™s the best course around.
		
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There are different views of what a â€œbest courseâ€ is.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Can completely understand your frustrations, but have to give a bit of respect to the club for holding firm.

Ultimately rules are there and if they let one person do it without the proper paperwork, then someone else might make a similar case for a 36 hole match and gain a clear advantage.

It's a slippery slope with regards to buggies. For example, it wasn't so long ago that most clubs / courses only allowed trolleys for people with a  doctors note. But ultimately anyone who wanted one could pretty much get one to the point that almost every club just gave in and allowed it. Now it would be unthinkable for all but the likes of St. Andrews to not allow trolleys.
		
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Yep youâ€™re right, they could of insisted he walked and risked him damaging his back further, possibly at great financial risk to himself if he needed to have time of work etc or he may tripped on the course and then blame the club and sue them.

All in the name of sticking rigidly to rules!

Heâ€™s genuine, opponents agreed, club should simply requested he gets the relevant paperwork to them when possible, even after the event, and good luck in the final.

Ridiculous situation.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2019)

Personally I would go back to your neurosurgeon and get your head examined


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Oldham92 said:



			All they had to was accept it and say to any other member that you had the form completed. Would have made a lot more sense.

I'd name and shame the club though
		
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 The other member said he was happy for me to play with a buggy. Just the desk jockeys said no


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Robin Hood said:



			Are the two numptys honorary positions or employees of the club.
If the former then I would try and get them voted off next AGM.
I bet all the members are on your side.
		
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Handcaps is a member and honorary club sec is an employee. Both actually said why didnâ€™t my partner just play on his own I had to remind them it was 4somes unbelievable


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## oltimer (Mar 9, 2019)

Try crowd funding - am sure you would get enough 50p`s to pay for it


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yep youâ€™re right, they could of insisted he walked and risked him damaging his back further, possibly at great financial risk to himself if he needed to have time of work etc or he may tripped on the course and then blame the club and sue them.

All in the name of sticking rigidly to rules!

Heâ€™s genuine, opponents agreed, club should simply requested he gets the relevant paperwork to them when possible, even after the event, and good luck in the final.

Ridiculous situation.
		
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Spot on!! And  every member I spoken to thinks itâ€™s outrageous. Other than committee members they are all sticking together. Suppose they have to even if they think itâ€™s nonsense


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Personally I would go back to your neurosurgeon and get your head examined  

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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Being serious, I actually agree 100% that your club officials are being total jobsworths. They need to remember that a golf club is a recreational institution. We play for fun, it's not life and death. If one of your opponents disagreed with you using a buggy then fair enough but as they are in agreement (which any normal person would be) then just get the match played!


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## duncan mackie (Mar 9, 2019)

As someone who's slipped a few discs, had a few operated on and played golf on and of through it all.....the last thing I would use to get round would be a buggy.
Constant cycle of activity, standing, swinging, then sitting in the buggy is not good. Best case it will go into spasm around the disc and you wont be able to swing at all.
Electric trolley and walking slowly, but as properly as you can, is pretty good for a proposed disc and prepares you best for the occassional swing as you go round.
Still, you probably don't want to hear that....so it's a good job I'm not medically qualified to give advice and you can discard it ðŸ¤”


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Oldham92 said:



			All they had to was accept it and say to any other member that you had the form completed. Would have made a lot more sense.

I'd name and shame the club though
		
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Would love to name them but Iâ€™d probably get kicked out because of some stupid bye law.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Being serious, I actually agree 100% that your club officials are being total jobsworths. They need to remember that a golf club is a recreational institution. We play for fun, it's not life and death. If one of your opponents disagreed with you using a buggy then fair enough but as they are in agreement (which any normal person would be) then just get the match played!
		
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Funny I almost used the same words to remind them that their job was to facilitate my leisure activity not turn it into a pain in that ass and back of course.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			As someone who's slipped a few discs, had a few operated on and played golf on and of through it all.....the last thing I would use to get round would be a buggy.
Constant cycle of activity, standing, swinging, then sitting in the buggy is not good. Best case it will go into spasm around the disc and you wont be able to swing at all.
Electric trolley and walking slowly, but as properly as you can, is pretty good for a proposed disc and prepares you best for the occassional swing as you go round.
Still, you probably don't want to hear that....so it's a good job I'm not medically qualified to give advice and you can discard it ðŸ¤”
		
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I would agree but I literally go into spasm after walking 100yds only relieved by sitting down for a few mins.  I did think of getting a caddy pushing a wheel chair to follow me round just to make the whole thing publicly rediculous.  ðŸ˜‚


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## pauljames87 (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			I would agree but I literally go into spasm after walking 100yds only relieved by sitting down for a few mins.  I did think of getting a caddy pushing a wheel chair to follow me round just to make the whole thing publicly rediculous.  ðŸ˜‚
		
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Whilst I agree your club are completely stupid here Iâ€™d let my mate down.. you canâ€™t put a price on your health


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## Canary Kid (Mar 9, 2019)

Could I suggest that you put a revision to the rule in question up to the next AGM to add â€œ... _or a letter, report or similar from a qualified medical practitioner_â€.  If passed, and surely it would be, it should stop others getting shafted in the same way.


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## Grant85 (Mar 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yep youâ€™re right, they could of insisted he walked and risked him damaging his back further, possibly at great financial risk to himself if he needed to have time of work etc or he may tripped on the course and then blame the club and sue them.

All in the name of sticking rigidly to rules!

Heâ€™s genuine, opponents agreed, club should simply requested he gets the relevant paperwork to them when possible, even after the event, and good luck in the final.

Ridiculous situation.
		
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Donâ€™t think itâ€™s unreasonable to make the point that if you have a bad back then you donâ€™t play.

Itâ€™s a competitive sport after all and thems the breaks.

And itâ€™s not for the opponents to be put in that position with regards to allowing someone to breach the rules. Almost anyone would agree to something like that either because they felt it the right thing to do or just for fear of being thought an unreasonable person.

Like I said, itâ€™s all very reasonable but within a few years could quickly develop into people taking buggies all the time.

Itâ€™s pretty much a given that any club in America has to have buggies and it has increased the cost per round substantially.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Donâ€™t think itâ€™s unreasonable to make the point that if you have a bad back then you donâ€™t play.

Itâ€™s a competitive sport after all and thems the breaks.

And itâ€™s not for the opponents to be put in that position with regards to allowing someone to breach the rules. Almost anyone would agree to something like that either because they felt it the right thing to do or just for fear of being thought an unreasonable person.

Like I said, itâ€™s all very reasonable but within a few years could quickly develop into people taking buggies all the time.

Itâ€™s pretty much a given that any club in America has to have buggies and it has increased the cost per round substantially.
		
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THEY are not saying he shouldnâ€™t play THEY are insisting on a piece of paper before he can play.

If they were denying his right to play for the good of his health I may agree.

Itâ€™s ridiculous and all just in case someone, somewhere might use a buggy they donâ€™t need.


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## Grant85 (Mar 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			THEY are not saying he shouldnâ€™t play THEY are insisting on a piece of paper before he can play.

If they were denying his right to play for the good of his health I may agree.

Itâ€™s ridiculous and all just in case someone, somewhere might use a buggy they donâ€™t need.
		
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Well I suspect we aren't going to change each others minds, but imagine the following situation. 

You have gotten through to a 36 hole final. You've never gotten to a final before or even won a trophy. You've got a sore ankle, but will just have to get on with it. 

The opposing player submits a request to use a buggy and provides a letter from his doctor dated earlier that year, 6 months ago. You have seen the guy playing through the season and hasn't needed a buggy. 

Because the committee let someone use a buggy the previous season without the full and complete current medical certificate, they just wave it through as the guy has a doctors letter.  

6 holes in, your ankle is starting to give you jip and it's a warm, late summers day. Meanwhile, your opponent is living it up in the buggy, taking shade while you sweat on the fairways. You are spent in the afternoon round and shake hands with 9 holes to go. 

I know that's not the current situation, but its very quickly how these things develop.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 9, 2019)

Wow thatâ€™s a ridiculous standpoint your club are taking, I would go to the next agm and either go on the committee or try to change the ruling to be a bit more flexible, failing that I would be looking for another club. 

Good luck in your match.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Well I suspect we aren't going to change each others minds, but imagine the following situation.

You have gotten through to a 36 hole final. You've never gotten to a final before or even won a trophy. You've got a sore ankle, but will just have to get on with it.

The opposing player submits a request to use a buggy and provides a letter from his doctor dated earlier that year, 6 months ago. You have seen the guy playing through the season and hasn't needed a buggy.

Because the committee let someone use a buggy the previous season without the full and complete current medical certificate, they just wave it through as the guy has a doctors letter. 

6 holes in, your ankle is starting to give you jip and it's a warm, late summers day. Meanwhile, your opponent is living it up in the buggy, taking shade while you sweat on the fairways. You are spent in the afternoon round and shake hands with 9 holes to go.

I know that's not the current situation, but its very quickly how these things develop.
		
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And if my Auntie had balls she would be my Uncle!

The scenario you paint is nothing like the one being experienced by the OP.

There's no defence for the ludicrous lack of common sense being displayed by the officials. 

It's the winter foursomes not the bloody Open.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Well I suspect we aren't going to change each others minds, but imagine the following situation.

You have gotten through to a 36 hole final. You've never gotten to a final before or even won a trophy. You've got a sore ankle, but will just have to get on with it.

The opposing player submits a request to use a buggy and provides a letter from his doctor *dated earlier that year, 6 months ago*. You have seen the guy playing through the season and hasn't needed a buggy.

Because the committee let someone use a buggy the previous season without the full and complete *current* medical certificate, they just wave it through as the guy has a doctors letter. 

6 holes in, your ankle is starting to give you jip and it's a warm, late summers day. Meanwhile, your opponent is living it up in the buggy, taking shade while you sweat on the fairways. You are spent in the afternoon round and shake hands with 9 holes to go.

I know that's not the current situation, but its very quickly how these things develop.
		
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Wow quite a scenario but my two highlighted points kinda negate your argument. If I was on my club committee and had to make a ruling on a situation like this I wouldn't accept a 6 month old certificate, I would tell the person to get a current one.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Canary Kid said:



			Could I suggest that you put a revision to the rule in question up to the next AGM to add â€œ... _or a letter, report or similar from a qualified medical practitioner_â€.  If passed, and surely it would be, it should stop others getting shafted in the same way.
		
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Iâ€™ll pass it on. ðŸ¤” still shocked by the stupidity of it all tbh.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I agree your club are completely stupid here Iâ€™d let my mate down.. you canâ€™t put a price on your health
		
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I know but Iâ€™m bloody minded. probably displayed by the fact I paid Â£250 just to make a point. Also makes a good story for the bar and makes the committee look petty. If Iâ€™d just given them a buy it would have all been forgotten. Stapleford today which I didnâ€™t play in obvs but a few of my mates there and everyone talking about it.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			THEY are not saying he shouldnâ€™t play THEY are insisting on a piece of paper before he can play.

If they were denying his right to play for the good of his health I may agree.

Itâ€™s ridiculous and all just in case someone, somewhere might use a buggy they donâ€™t need.
		
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I did point out in the 17 years Iâ€™ve been a member I have never used a buggy backed up by the Pro and wouldnâ€™t be doing all this  if I felt I could play without a buggy.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Wow thatâ€™s a ridiculous standpoint your club are taking, I would go to the next agm and either go on the committee or try to change the ruling to be a bit more flexible, failing that I would be looking for another club.

Good luck in your match.[/QUOTE
		
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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Wow thatâ€™s a ridiculous standpoint your club are taking, I would go to the next agm and either go on the committee or try to change the ruling to be a bit more flexible, failing that I would be looking for another club.

Good luck in your match.
		
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Cheers itâ€™s always had a rep for being stuffy and the committee is populated well...... with people who like being in committees if you catch my drift!!!


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			And if my Auntie had balls she would be my Uncle!

The scenario you paint is nothing like the one being experienced by the OP.

There's no defence for the ludicrous lack of common sense being displayed by the officials.

It's the winter foursomes not the bloody Open.
		
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 I thank you!!! They had two page letter from the consultant that cleary said I was walking with a pronounced limp dated a few days before.  She was aware that Iâ€™d had an MRI and spinal steroid injection and asked me how it had gone when is asked to use the buggy Jobsworth!!!


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Wow quite a scenario but my two highlighted points kinda negate your argument. If I was on my club committee and had to make a ruling on a situation like this I wouldn't accept a 6 month old certificate, I would tell the person to get a current one.
		
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 The actual letter was a few days old there were also about 15 emails between me and my consultant discussing the fact that I was still in pain. The final one was with one on the day I asked for a buggy which I passed on to them. They have no excuse.


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## Birdie2 (Mar 9, 2019)

Unbelievable. I hope you win the competition after all of that. Very best of luck and let us all know how you get on!


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## inc0gnito (Mar 9, 2019)

The simple thing for both sides would have been to allow you to play with the buggy, and get the GP signed cert the following week in retrospect. Failure to produce by, say Tuesday, and you get dqâ€™d and your opponents go to the final. Simples.


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## C&R (Mar 9, 2019)

No one bothered about the Â£250 for a signature ðŸ˜³


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Birdie2 said:



			Unbelievable. I hope you win the competition after all of that. Very best of luck and let us all know how you get on!
		
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Thanks lot of pressure to win like placing a Â£275 bet on yourself will post the result.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

inc0gnito said:



			The simple thing for both sides would have been to allow you to play with the buggy, and get the GP signed cert the following week in retrospect. Failure to produce by, say Tuesday, and you get dqâ€™d and your opponents go to the final. Simples.
		
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I did suggest this also in one of the 30 emails I sent........ nope


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## pokerjoke (Mar 9, 2019)

Opening post(almost unable to walk) but wants to play golf.

From someone who suffers spasms and couldnâ€™t play even if he wanted to my question would be why.

Letting a mate down,forget it health comes first


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

C&R said:



			No one bothered about the Â£250 for a signature ðŸ˜³
		
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 I was in the docs office for 10 mins 8 of which were in the waiting room it wasnâ€™t just a signature he had to print his name and date it. ðŸ™„ works out at about Â£10 a letter. Then again I didnâ€™t go to Uni for 7 years.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			Opening post(almost unable to walk) but wants to play golf.

From someone who suffers spasms and couldnâ€™t play even if he wanted to my question would be why.

Letting a mate down,forget it health comes first
		
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Only been in two name on a board semis including this one my back will get better name will be up there for 100 years!!  ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## pokerjoke (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			Only been in two name on a board semis including this one my back will get better name will be up there for 100 years!!  ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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If you win


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## woofers (Mar 9, 2019)

I canâ€™t see that anyone comes out of this with any credit.
The one thing we donâ€™t know, is just how much Â£275 is worth to you, Mr Â£275 buggy hire - (new member). You may be a member of a â€œposhâ€ club in the south east where a substantial annual membership is charged, and members comprise fairly wealthy folk, (people who charge Â£250 for an hours work say,) and this sum is not considered exorbitant.
Having said that, I wouldnâ€™t pay it, itâ€™s only a game of golf and your health is worth so much more.
I would be sure that every competition is run strictly to the rules though..


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## Homer (Mar 9, 2019)

Which County is this club in?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			Only been in two name on a board semis including this one my back will get better name will be up there for 100 years!!  ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Will it be worth it if you do perm damage and canâ€™t play again?


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

woofers said:



			I canâ€™t see that anyone comes out of this with any credit.
The one thing we donâ€™t know, is just how much Â£275 is worth to you, Mr Â£275 buggy hire - (new member). You may be a member of a â€œposhâ€ club in the south east where a substantial annual membership is charged, and members comprise fairly wealthy folk, (people who charge Â£250 for an hours work say,) and this sum is not considered exorbitant.
Having said that, I wouldnâ€™t pay it, itâ€™s only a game of golf and your health is worth so much more.
I would be sure that every competition is run strictly to the rules though..
		
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Donâ€™t want to be obscure but may be fun to give you a couple of clues Iâ€™m not a city banker, private consultants charge 2-300 everywhere and the club in the south west of England,  subs are between 1200 and 1400 and Iâ€™m a house builder. Tbh it was just the principle in the end it was stupid that that a consultant letter confirming an injury was not sufficient. I am a total stickler for the rules of the game even the ones that donâ€™t  to make no sense. The crux of this was they gave me 3 days to get a doctors note which was impossible to get they could have said I had to get the letter before the final was played.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Will it be worth it if you do perm damage and canâ€™t play again?
		
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Iâ€™ll just have surgery itâ€™s only a slipped disc itâ€™s painful but itâ€™s treatable. Itâ€™s not like I have heart Condition and could keel over. Also the consultant says the very worst I can to is to be inactive when I was about to cancel my family ski holiday three weeks ago he said I should go anyway and try to do as much as I could and stop when the pain got too bad also says golf is ok.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			subs are between 1200 and 1400
		
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Are there two courses there


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 9, 2019)

Easy  answer is change the Rules to allow the use of buggies in comps.

We do at our Club.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Easy  answer is change the Rules to allow the use of buggies in comps.

We do at our Club.
		
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Old Skier said:



			Are there two courses there
		
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Nice try TMI


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			Nice try TMI
		
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Actually no there isnâ€™t just 18 holes


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Easy  answer is change the Rules to allow the use of buggies in comps.

We do at our Club.
		
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Then you'd need enough buggies for every member to use.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Then you'd need enough buggies for every member to use.
		
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We have 6 and I have never yet seen them all in use.

I completely fail to see what advantage there is to be gained by their use other than permitting those like the OP to play.

It sometimes seems on here that many are looking to make it difficult for people to play rather than encouraging them.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 9, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			Actually no there isnâ€™t just 18 holes
		
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 9 hole par 3 course?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 9, 2019)

Ridiculous request and totally out of order from the club. I'd play the game and leave and tell the club I was going public with what they had asked me to do and cost me. I doubt given their attitude whether they'd even consider amending the rules going forward to make it more flexible and less expensive. Best off elsewhere


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			It sometimes seems on here that many are looking to make it difficult for people to play rather than encouraging them.
		
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Not at all, but allowing buggies without a policy can lead to problems. Some people see using a buggy as an advantaged, I don't , some people need buggys to enable them to play and some have forgotten how to walk.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not at all, but allowing buggies without a policy can lead to problems. Some people see using a buggy as an advantaged, I don't , some people need buggys to enable them to play and some have forgotten how to walk.
		
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Maybe not yourself but I am sure that, like me, you have seen plenty of comments on here that would make you question the mindset of some.


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## Robin Hood (Mar 9, 2019)

I bet a lot of us will be watching out for the result tomorrow.
Very best of luck, I hope your back is good enough to complete the round, it's obviously important to you.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Well I suspect we aren't going to change each others minds, but imagine the following situation.

You have gotten through to a 36 hole final. You've never gotten to a final before or even won a trophy. You've got a sore ankle, but will just have to get on with it.

The opposing player submits a request to use a buggy and provides a letter from his doctor dated earlier that year, 6 months ago. You have seen the guy playing through the season and hasn't needed a buggy.

Because the committee let someone use a buggy the previous season without the full and complete current medical certificate, they just wave it through as the guy has a doctors letter. 

6 holes in, your ankle is starting to give you jip and it's a warm, late summers day. Meanwhile, your opponent is living it up in the buggy, taking shade while you sweat on the fairways. You are spent in the afternoon round and shake hands with 9 holes to go.

I know that's not the current situation, but its very quickly how these things develop.
		
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In this situation all you have to do is offer the choice of a buggie to anyone in a match who is playing against another buggy user.
This evens things up.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2019)

Come on the Walkers!!!!


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			In this situation all you have to do is offer the choice of a buggie to anyone in a match who is playing against another buggy user.
This evens things up.
		
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Actually a very sensible solution wish me luck chaps tee off at 10.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Then you'd need enough buggies for every member to use.
		
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Would we also need to ensure that there were caddies available for everyone and/or electric trolleys for all?


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## bladeplayer (Mar 10, 2019)

Not justifying the clubs stance but in most case u will find clubs bring in extra rules for a reason . Usualy because of an issue / problem that was caused by members
..
The club may need to review their requirement for permission to use a buggy , but the one thing they definitly have to do is apply the rule or COC that is there . They like members are obliged to play to and abide by  the rules ..
.


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## jusme (Mar 10, 2019)

I have no issue with the actual rule, but they do need to be more flexible with the 'evidence' required. If medical evidence from a consultant is not sufficient, then the club is simply too inflexible. 

Good luck with the match - waiting with anticipation


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## IanM (Mar 10, 2019)

Club showing lack of common sense.  

I thought this thread was about 50 euros for buggies in the Algarve!


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 10, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			Actually a very sensible solution wish me luck chaps tee off at 10.
		
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Never been called sensible before
Good luck.


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## IainP (Mar 10, 2019)

Hope it doesn't blow over and cause more complications!


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2019)

Hope the opposition turn up


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## williamalex1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Hope the opposition turn up 

Click to expand...

Hope they don't get knocked down by a run away buggy


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## cliveb (Mar 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Some people see using a buggy as an advantaged, I don't
		
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I was going to make the same point. Whenever I've used a buggy it didn't improve my game.

Come to think of it, my best ever rounds have been while carrying with half of the irons missing.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

Liverbirdie said:



			Come on the Walkers!!!!
		
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Robin Hood said:



			I bet a lot of us will be watching out for the result tomorrow.
Very best of luck, I hope your back is good enough to complete the round, it's obviously important to you.
		
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 Update


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

Robin Hood said:



			I bet a lot of us will be watching out for the result tomorrow.
Very best of luck, I hope your back is good enough to complete the round, it's obviously important to you.
		
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3and 1 victory for the buggy driver and partner come on!!! The very slow 3/4 swing proved  very effective all that cash not wasted.


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## Robin Hood (Mar 10, 2019)

Woohoo
Well done
ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Doh (Mar 10, 2019)

That's great to hear now you need to think about what you're going to do next. Remember revenge is better served up cold.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Doh said:



			That's great to hear now you need to think about what you're going to do next. Remember revenge is better served up cold.
		
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Then park your buggy in the h/c conveners parking space


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## GOLFER1994 (Mar 10, 2019)

Very glad you won but cannot believe the clubs ruling ! Absolute joke and can't help but reinforce my frustration at the current status of golf and some of the ridiculous and outdated rulings.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 10, 2019)

Congratulations. Now go and win the final and get your names on the wall.  It's very satisfying walking into the clubhouse & seeing your name up there, good luck.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Congratulations. Now go and win the final and get your names on the wall.  It's very satisfying walking into the clubhouse & seeing your name up there, good luck. 

Click to expand...




Doh said:



			That's great to hear now you need to think about what you're going to do next. Remember revenge is better served up cold.
		
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it will be freezing.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Then park your buggy in the h/c conveners parking space 

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The plot thickens she has only been chair of h,caps and comps for two months. She was in the pro shop when I arrived this morning and was disqualifying 15 members from Saturdays comp for not paying their comp entry fees by Friday night and paying in the pro shop on Saturday. She must have read the book â€˜ how to make enemies and cheese people offâ€™  itâ€™s comical.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

She will never last.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 10, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Congratulations. Now go and win the final and get your names on the wall.  It's very satisfying walking into the clubhouse & seeing your name up there, good luck. 

Click to expand...

If you get your name on the wall ,will it have a little B next to it like the wet laps on Top Gear?

Well done ,beware the injured golfer!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			The plot thickens she has only been chair of h,caps and comps for two months. She was in the pro shop when I arrived this morning and was disqualifying 15 members from Saturdays comp for not paying their comp entry fees by Friday night and paying in the pro shop on Saturday. She must have read the book â€˜ how to make enemies and cheese people offâ€™  itâ€™s comical.
		
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Simple answer is to make the club aware of her actions especially if they aren't in line with competition entry rules. Well done on the win and get the trophy and then decide on your next move but if it was me I'd be making it my swansong and finding a far better run club


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## Tashyboy (Mar 10, 2019)

I have a feeling there is a few people grinning from ear to ear at your club and a few people gutted you are in the final. Chuffed to bits for you. If you win the final, can I pen your victory speech.


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If you get your name on the wall ,will it have a little B next to it like the wet laps on Top Gear?

Well done ,beware the injured golfer!!
		
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Top comment ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 10, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I have a feeling there is a few people grinning from ear to ear at your club and a few people gutted you are in the final. Chuffed to bits for you. If you win the final, can I pen your victory speech.
		
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My speech ( hopefully)!
Will be littered with passive agressive quips and a double portion of sarcasm. All there for all to hear. Priceless also incase the golfing gods are listening I am in no way suggesting that I may win the final. Just saying!!


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## Slab (Mar 11, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			The plot thickens she has only been chair of h,caps and comps for two months. She was in the pro shop when I arrived this morning and was disqualifying 15 members from Saturdays comp for not paying their comp entry fees by Friday night and paying in the pro shop on Saturday. She must have read the book â€˜ how to make enemies and cheese people offâ€™  itâ€™s comical.
		
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From the two examples (medical cert policy & comp entry fees) I cant decide if the comps were poorly run/administrated previously and members were happy with that approach or if the current committee have other requirements for sticking to the established comp rules

Well done on your win


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## mister v (Mar 11, 2019)

Congratulations on the win and getting into the final, does your certificate allow you to use a buggy in the final or is that another Â£275?
I also liked the chair of h,caps and comps (for 2 months) disqualified 15 members from the Saturday comp........ she will go far in your club im sure!


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## Â£275 buggy hire (Mar 11, 2019)

mister v said:



			Congratulations on the win and getting into the final, does your certificate allow you to use a buggy in the final or is that another Â£275?
I also liked the chair of h,caps and comps (for 2 months) disqualified 15 members from the Saturday comp........ she will go far in your club im sure!
		
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Thankfully I  have unlimited buggy use now.  Ironically they werenâ€™t willing to accept a letter from a consultant to allow me to use a buggy and also accept my word as a Gentleman golfer that I needed it so I could play. 

I can now play with a buggy Indefinitely and they are willing to rely on my sense of fair play to stop using the buggy when my symptoms cease. Obvs. I will because I donâ€™t like using buggies but just further proves how rediculous the whole situation is.  

I give her a few months!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			Thankfully I  have unlimited buggy use now.  Ironically they werenâ€™t willing to accept a letter from a consultant to allow me to use a buggy and also accept my word as a Gentleman golfer that I needed it so I could play.

I can now play with a buggy Indefinitely and they are willing to rely on my sense of fair play to stop using the buggy when my symptoms cease. Obvs. I will because I donâ€™t like using buggies but just further proves how rediculous the whole situation is. 

I give her a few months!!
		
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Good news and even more daft that they now ignore the written guidance of a consultant and take your own word for it. What a waste of time and money and they've mucked you about royally as well as making you recover from hefty open wallet surgery to stump up for the letter to play. I reckon the handicap chair will be in the role a month at most! I bet there are already rumblings of discontent


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## Slab (Mar 11, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good news and even more daft that they now ignore the written guidance of a consultant and take your own word for it. What a waste of time and money and they've mucked you about royally as well as making you recover from hefty open wallet surgery to stump up for the letter to play. I reckon the handicap chair will be in the role a month at most! I bet there are already rumblings of discontent
		
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Iâ€™m not so sure Homer

While the club appear to have been pretty inflexible in applying their comp rules, the rule itself came from somewhere, it hasnâ€™t just been thought up last week specifically to annoy _Â£275 buggy hire_ and I wonder if the club are getting a bit more stick than they deserve

No one made _Â£275 buggy hire_ spend the money, he chose to spend it in order not to let his partner down & to make a point to the club, (all credit to him I doubt I would have) however:
The club didnâ€™t give _Â£275 buggy hire_ 3 days to get a certificate signed, it was _Â£275 buggy hire_ who gave the club just three daysâ€™ notice that he wanted to use a buggy (which he knew wasnâ€™t normally permitted) but he didnâ€™t have the any certificate/report to the club, just correspondence between patient/consultant & GP) and so forced them into a snap judgment on whether the various bits of email/letters were sufficient for an exemption (which in my opinion they got wrong) but; it was the OP who created much of the circumstances requiring the decision to even need to be made, because while it was clearly important to him last Tuesday, it seemingly didnâ€™t occur to _Â£275 buggy hire_ to ask for any type of certificate/letter addressed to the golf club when he last met/corresponded with the consultantâ€¦ despite the fact they discussed playing golfâ€¦ and the consultant even saying he was ok to play golf!

Iâ€™d agree with the majority & say the club have made an error in judgment but sorry to say to _Â£275 buggy hire_, so did you


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## Slab (Mar 11, 2019)

@Â£275 buggy hire 
One walking, one riding, Iâ€™ve never had that; what was the playing experience like driving round while your partner walked etc. Did he tend to walk with the other pairing or did you slow down to his pace and stick beside him?

Did you have any close calls where your partner nearly sat in the cart by accident or was it pretty smooth sailing from a rules perspective?

Well done again on the win, whens the final


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 11, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			My speech ( hopefully)!
Will be littered with passive agressive quips and a double portion of sarcasm. All there for all to hear. Priceless also incase the golfing gods are listening I am in no way suggesting that I may win the final. Just saying!!
		
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If you win I hope your opponents don't take offence, have you seen the clip about the punch up in South Africa?


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## IanM (Mar 11, 2019)

There is little to be gained by chucking in digs in a winner's speech.... lacks class...   Doesnt mean a reference to a little "additional admin being required" with a smile on your face might not get a laugh... but leave it that.  Let the others make their conclusions.  Far more effective.


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## Oldham92 (Mar 11, 2019)

Slab said:



			Iâ€™m not so sure Homer

While the club appear to have been pretty inflexible in applying their comp rules, the rule itself came from somewhere, it hasnâ€™t just been thought up last week specifically to annoy _Â£275 buggy hire_ and I wonder if the club are getting a bit more stick than they deserve

No one made _Â£275 buggy hire_ spend the money, he chose to spend it in order not to let his partner down & to make a point to the club, (all credit to him I doubt I would have) however:
The club didnâ€™t give _Â£275 buggy hire_ 3 days to get a certificate signed, it was _Â£275 buggy hire_ who gave the club just three daysâ€™ notice that he wanted to use a buggy (which he knew wasnâ€™t normally permitted) but he didnâ€™t have the any certificate/report to the club, just correspondence between patient/consultant & GP) and so forced them into a snap judgment on whether the various bits of email/letters were sufficient for an exemption (which in my opinion they got wrong) but; it was the OP who created much of the circumstances requiring the decision to even need to be made, because while it was clearly important to him last Tuesday, it seemingly didnâ€™t occur to _Â£275 buggy hire_ to ask for any type of certificate/letter addressed to the golf club when he last met/corresponded with the consultantâ€¦ despite the fact they discussed playing golfâ€¦ and the consultant even saying he was ok to play golf!

Iâ€™d agree with the majority & say the club have made an error in judgment but sorry to say to _Â£275 buggy hire_, so did you
		
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To be fair common sense could be used. Club could say something like, usually we need this but as it's short notice we will make an exception and use the Letter if you're aware it's a one off and agree to a smaller charitable donation instead of paying out to the doctor


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## Slab (Mar 11, 2019)

Oldham92 said:



			To be fair common sense could be used. Club could say something like, usually we need this but as it's short notice we will make an exception and use the Letter if you're aware it's a one off and agree to a smaller charitable donation instead of paying out to the doctor
		
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Agreed, from the info there was several things that would have prevented this, but they weren't all down to the club


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2019)

Slab said:



			Iâ€™m not so sure Homer

While the club appear to have been pretty inflexible in applying their comp rules, the rule itself came from somewhere, it hasnâ€™t just been thought up last week specifically to annoy _Â£275 buggy hire_ and I wonder if the club are getting a bit more stick than they deserve

No one made _Â£275 buggy hire_ spend the money, he chose to spend it in order not to let his partner down & to make a point to the club, (all credit to him I doubt I would have) however:
The club didnâ€™t give _Â£275 buggy hire_ 3 days to get a certificate signed, it was _Â£275 buggy hire_ who gave the club just three daysâ€™ notice that he wanted to use a buggy (which he knew wasnâ€™t normally permitted) but he didnâ€™t have the any certificate/report to the club, just correspondence between patient/consultant & GP) and so forced them into a snap judgment on whether the various bits of email/letters were sufficient for an exemption (which in my opinion they got wrong) but; it was the OP who created much of the circumstances requiring the decision to even need to be made, because while it was clearly important to him last Tuesday, it seemingly didnâ€™t occur to _Â£275 buggy hire_ to ask for any type of certificate/letter addressed to the golf club when he last met/corresponded with the consultantâ€¦ despite the fact they discussed playing golfâ€¦ and the consultant even saying he was ok to play golf!

Iâ€™d agree with the majority & say the club have made an error in judgment but sorry to say to _Â£275 buggy hire_, so did you
		
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Taken from the OP

I provided the club with letter from my Consultant Neurosurgeon to my GP which outlned my symptoms etc. He had sent it to update my GPâ€™s records. 

My opponents of course being good sports said they had no problem with me using a buggy. The small advantage I would gain by using one slightly eclipsed by my having to play with a slipped disc. 

Ahh but no!! the handicap secretary and now the club secretary insisted that I had the official club medical exemption form completed by my GP. Saying it had to be received by Friday before the secretaryâ€™s office closed for the weekend otherwise I would have to play without the buggy and if I used one I would be disqualified. 

With 3 days to get this form signed I contacted my local surgery to see if the GP could sign me off. Not surprisingly the earliest appointment I could get was in two weeks unless of course it was an emergency. I told them it was an emergency I needed this document otherwise I couldnâ€™t play in the semi of the winter foursomes blah blah. The receptionist laughed and politely told me to stop wasting her time. 

Left with no option I callled the handicap secretary said I couldnâ€™t get the paperwork but surely the letter from the consultant would do. No was the very firm reply but I could scratch from the comp as â€˜rules were rulesâ€™ it needed to be the official club form and nothing else. 

Left with no option. I contacted my consultant who said he could see me in time to sign the form but unfortunately it would have to be a private consultation and it would cost Â£250. I had no choice I agreed because I couldnâ€™t bring myself to let my mate down, if it were singles I would have just forfeited.  

In my mind the fault lies solely with the club. The OP has provided clearly medical evidence in good time via a letter from the neurosurgeon. It's the club saying the official medical exemption form is needed and that if not the outcome was DQ if a buggy was used. I admire the OP for sticking by his PP and to my mind the club are in error for insisting rules are rules and the right bit of paper has to be singed and in the secretary's had by close of business on Friday. That then put all the onus on the OP to again get a signature (at huge cost) when to all intent and purpose the club already had that. I simply think the club put up barriers and were instransigent especially as the opposition had voiced no concerns as well.


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## Slab (Mar 11, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Taken from the OP

I provided the club with letter from my Consultant Neurosurgeon to my GP which outlned my symptoms etc. He had sent it to update my GPâ€™s records.

My opponents of course being good sports said they had no problem with me using a buggy. The small advantage I would gain by using one slightly eclipsed by my having to play with a slipped disc.

Ahh but no!! the handicap secretary and now the club secretary insisted that I had the official club medical exemption form completed by my GP. Saying it had to be received by Friday before the secretaryâ€™s office closed for the weekend otherwise I would have to play without the buggy and if I used one I would be disqualified.

With 3 days to get this form signed I contacted my local surgery to see if the GP could sign me off. Not surprisingly the earliest appointment I could get was in two weeks unless of course it was an emergency. I told them it was an emergency I needed this document otherwise I couldnâ€™t play in the semi of the winter foursomes blah blah. The receptionist laughed and politely told me to stop wasting her time.

Left with no option I callled the handicap secretary said I couldnâ€™t get the paperwork but surely the letter from the consultant would do. No was the very firm reply but I could scratch from the comp as â€˜rules were rulesâ€™ it needed to be the official club form and nothing else.

Left with no option. I contacted my consultant who said he could see me in time to sign the form but unfortunately it would have to be a private consultation and it would cost Â£250. I had no choice I agreed because I couldnâ€™t bring myself to let my mate down, if it were singles I would have just forfeited. 

In my mind the fault lies solely with the club. The OP has provided clearly medical evidence in good time via a letter from the neurosurgeon. It's the club saying the official medical exemption form is needed and that if not the outcome was DQ if a buggy was used. I admire the OP for sticking by his PP and to my mind the club are in error for insisting rules are rules and the right bit of paper has to be singed and in the secretary's had by close of business on Friday. That then put all the onus on the OP to again get a signature (at huge cost) when to all intent and purpose the club already had that. I simply think the club put up barriers and were instransigent especially as the opposition had voiced no concerns as well.
		
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Sorry but for me one doctors note intended to be read by a second doctor will potentially not be in any kind of format legible for the public to understand and are hardly likely to mention the OPs ability to play golf without a buggy


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2019)

Slab said:



			Sorry but for me one doctors note intended to be read by a second doctor will potentially not be in any kind of format legible for the public to understand and are hardly likely to mention the OPs ability to play golf without a buggy
		
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But it surely outlines the medical condition and therefore joined up thinking would suggest a buggy would be required. Its not like he's just decided to get a buggy on the spur of the moment. Not sure what the format and public ability to understand does for the argument. As long as the original document ascertained a condition needing a buggy, and that the club have now said "we'll take your word and your integrity" it all seems an unneeded storm in a teacup. Clearly you disagree and I respect that but I simply felt this could have been handled so much better by the club and nipped in the bud


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## Slab (Mar 11, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But it surely outlines the medical condition and therefore joined up thinking would suggest a buggy would be required. Its not like he's just decided to get a buggy on the spur of the moment. Not sure what the format and public ability to understand does for the argument. As long as the original document ascertained a condition needing a buggy, and that the club have now said "we'll take your word and your integrity" it all seems an unneeded storm in a teacup. Clearly you disagree and I respect that but I simply felt this could have been handled so much better by the club and nipped in the bud
		
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It's not the job of handicap secs to trot off and goggle the ailment or condition and then make a judgement call on whether that requires a buggy to play golf

It didn't say anywhere that the consultants notes reference golf in any way

Edit, it said they were consulting notes to update the OPs medical records not his golfing ability


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## Grant85 (Mar 11, 2019)

Slab said:



			It's not the job of handicap secs to trot off and goggle the ailment or condition and then make a judgement call on whether that requires a buggy to play golf

It didn't say anywhere that the consultants notes reference golf in any way

Edit, it said they were consulting notes to update the OPs medical records not his golfing ability
		
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I completely agree with this. 

Rules are there to protect the integrity of competitions. It may seem trivial, but it's a route you could easily go down to soften said rules, without changing them, then that's where some people do take advantage of them. 

There is very little prospect of someone determining from a letter from one doctor to another that a person can play golf comfortably but they would need a buggy to do so. Or that playing golf without a buggy would risk them making their condition worse. 

The only way is to get them to complete a medical certificate where specific golfing related questions are asked. Or else change the rules to allow buggies for all competitions or at the discretion of the committee. 

Also imagine golf was a sport more like football where it was accepted that it was 'part of the game' to try and get one over the referee or the opposition. These rules would of course be much more important and people would be much happier they were followed, rather than relaxed.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 11, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I completely agree with this. 

Rules are there to protect the integrity of competitions. It may seem trivial, but it's a route you could easily go down to soften said rules, without changing them, then that's where some people do take advantage of them. 

There is very little prospect of someone determining from a letter from one doctor to another that a person can play golf comfortably but they would need a buggy to do so. Or that playing golf without a buggy would risk them making their condition worse. 

The only way is to get them to complete a medical certificate where specific golfing related questions are asked. Or else change the rules to allow buggies for all competitions or at the discretion of the committee. 

Also imagine golf was a sport more like football where it was accepted that it was 'part of the game' to try and get one over the referee or the opposition. These rules would of course be much more important and people would be much happier they were followed, rather than relaxed.
		
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Sorry but that's the answer of a true jobsworth.


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## Grant85 (Mar 11, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry but that's the answer of a true jobsworth.
		
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Not at all. A jobsworth would be to enforce meaningless rules or protocol that make no difference to the play or competition. 

That is clearly not the case here.


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## Scozzy (Mar 11, 2019)

For me this is ridiculous overeach, rules are rules fine but when,in a local club comp,far away from John Paramour and the Euro tour is a neuro doctors letter and acceptance of your opponent not enough to play a club tie? Id be mighty annoyed and looking to go.I have a copy of the original rules and most modern additions, imo since are unnecessary..... I bet they're the sort of guys who watch you tee up 2in in front of marker and wait for you to hit rather than a cough,smirk and a raised eyebrow to give them (and you!) the chance to redress the situ and enjoy your round and each others company rather than 4 hrs of spite...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 11, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Not at all. A jobsworth would be to enforce meaningless rules or protocol that make no difference to the play or competition. 

That is clearly not the case here.
		
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What difference does the use of a buggy make?

They may be antisocial but to the average club golfer they offer no real advantage.


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## Grant85 (Mar 11, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			What difference does the use of a buggy make?

They may be antisocial but to the average club golfer they offer no real advantage.
		
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They leave you less fatigued than someone who was walking. 

Not saying that's the case here at all, but it might be a factor, depending on fitness levels at this time of year.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 11, 2019)

And can you provide evidence that this will somehow make a  difference to  a club golfers standard of play in the Winter Foursomes?

What  next? Ban caddies,  electric trolleys?


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 11, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			What difference does the use of a buggy make?

They may be antisocial but to the average club golfer they offer no real advantage.
		
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I think in winter buggies are a disadvantage ,you never get warm .
Itâ€™s bad enough in FLORIDA in the morning when itâ€™s cool.

Think the Club need a better policy like believing the word of their members.
If the opponents had said no then go down the form filling route, but like gentlemen they agreed.
Itâ€™s a game at the end of the day and I would not want to look at my winning trophy and say to myself
â€œ get in , I won that by dening my op the use of a buggyâ€ thatâ€™s not golf as I know it!


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## Dasit (Mar 11, 2019)

Everything I hate about club golf in one post


Just absolutely no common sense and stuck in the past


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2019)

Dasit said:



			Everything I hate about club golf in one post


Just absolutely no common sense and stuck in the past
		
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This for me. Even if the letter from the consultant didn't specifically mention golf surely the fact that he'd provided evidence, the opposition were in agreement and the neglible effect a buggy would really have on a handicap golfer. It smacks of an overly officious club stuck in the past. Just by point of view


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 11, 2019)

To try add a bit of balance to this 

I have been in the opposing position when someone has asked to use a buggy because of injury - and because it states clearly in our rules and conditions of competition you must be on the authorised buggy list for permanent use or have a doctors note to use only temp in comps - to ensure all rules were adhered to and fair to all as well consist then they all got the same response, and yes someone was DQ for using a buggy in a Comp when they werenâ€™t on the list and didnâ€™t have a note  , thatâ€™s the rule of our comps and itâ€™s up to us all to ensure they are consistent to all


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To try add a bit of balance to this

I have been in the opposing position when someone has asked to use a buggy because of injury - and because it states clearly in our rules and conditions of competition you must be on the authorised buggy list for permanent use or have a doctors note to use only temp in comps - to ensure all rules were adhered to and fair to all as well consist then they all got the same response, and yes someone was DQ for using a buggy in a Comp when they werenâ€™t on the list and didnâ€™t have a note  , thatâ€™s the rule of our comps and itâ€™s up to us all to ensure they are consistent to all
		
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Yes I see that in a medal comp !
But this was matchplay and opponents had agreed to use.
Just let him play and get the forms done at the earliest appointment in the doctors instead of Â£250 for consultant .
Just seems unnecessary but rules are rules.
Itâ€™s not good if he leaves the club for somewhere else.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 11, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I see that in a medal comp !
But this was matchplay and opponents had agreed to use.
Just let him play and get the forms done at the earliest appointment in the doctors instead of Â£250 for consultant .
Just seems unnecessary but rules are rules.
Itâ€™s not good if he leaves the club for somewhere else.
		
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Itâ€™s the same rules for all comps and the oppos can agree to ignore the conditions of the competition- if you ignore for one you open yourself up for others , and also what other comps rules should be just ignored or a way around found 

Now if the procedure to allow someone to use a buggy is long winded or restricted etc thatâ€™s the area to look and change - doesnâ€™t take much for a request to be put in and even through the AGM


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## Dibby (Mar 11, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			This for me. Even if the letter from the consultant didn't specifically mention golf surely the fact that he'd provided evidence, the opposition were in agreement and the neglible effect a buggy would really have on a handicap golfer. It smacks of an overly officious club stuck in the past. Just by point of view
		
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I'm not sure it's that cut and dry. If the consultants letter says he has a herniated disc, what does that mean? Should he play gold at all? If he can play, does it mean he needs a buggy? What if I get a letter from my consulatant saying I have angina, does that qualify me for a buggy or not? What if it is uveitis, or perhaps plantar facitis?

The point being, the secretary isn't a medical professional to decide these matters, it's much better to make it clear cut and say a doctor needs to provide the decision as to whether a buggy is necessary for golf.

This thread reminds me of the parent and child parking one. We only hear one side of the story. If the club were to present their side, it might well sound reasonable too, and then we may discover the truth is somewhere in between and both sides have some reasonable and some unreasonable points.


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## robinthehood (Mar 11, 2019)

Why are some clubs banning buggies in  comps? I couldn't care less it doesn't improve your golf that's for sure


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## Kellfire (Mar 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why are some clubs banning buggies in  comps? I couldn't care less it doesn't improve your golf that's for sure
		
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For many it does as theyâ€™d feel fatigue or an exacerbation of existing conditions if they had to walk.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 12, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			For many it does as theyâ€™d feel fatigue or an exacerbation of existing conditions if they had to walk.
		
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In view of the very small amount of physical effort required to play a golf shot I struggle to see how a little fatigue will affect a player's ability.

Has any evidence ever been produced to support the theory?

And if a "level playing field" is to be created then surely caddies and trolleys also need to be banned.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 12, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			In view of the very small amount of physical effort required to play a golf shot I struggle to see how a little fatigue will affect a player's ability.

Has any evidence ever been produced to support the theory?

And if a "level playing field" is to be created then surely caddies and trolleys also need to be banned.
		
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Yes itâ€™s a choice to have a caddy.
Itâ€™s a choice to have an electric trolley.
Itâ€™s a choice to have a push trolley.
Itâ€™s a choice to carry your clubs.
But you canâ€™t have a buggy ?

As long as they are avaliable to everyone who wants one ,and course allows them.
Itâ€™s just another choice!


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## robinthehood (Mar 12, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			For many it does as theyâ€™d feel fatigue or an exacerbation of existing conditions if they had to walk.
		
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Makes no odds to me, if my oppo in a match has a buggy then  crack on. Clubs need all the cash they can get, not allowing buggies in comps is just cutting off a revenue stream .


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 12, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes itâ€™s a choice to have a caddy.
Itâ€™s a choice to have an electric trolley.
Itâ€™s a choice to have a push trolley.
Itâ€™s a choice to carry your clubs.
But you canâ€™t have a buggy ?

As long as they are avaliable to everyone who wants one ,and course allows them.
Itâ€™s just another choice!
		
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Exactly. 

I can only base it on what happens  at our Club where we have six buggies available. 

Competitions on Saturdays in the season see a field of 156 and yet I don't recall ever seeing all the buggies in use.

I have played with some who have used one and never noticed any appreciable improvement in their game, even over the closing holes.


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## Dibby (Mar 12, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



*In view of the very small amount of physical effort required to play a golf shot I struggle to see how a little fatigue will affect a player's ability.*

Has any evidence ever been produced to support the theory?

And if a "level playing field" is to be created then surely caddies and trolleys also need to be banned.
		
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What do you consider a "small amount"?

To swing a driver at 100mph takes about 2HP. Assuming you take approx 40 full shots in a round, that's 40 seconds of effort at 2HP, but this could be doubled with practice swings.

To put that in perspective, during a 100m sprint, Usain Bolt would produce about 3HP for less than 10 seconds. If you asked him to do 1 sprint an hour for 4 hours, I would be willing to bet the last sprint would be slower than the first one.
An elite track cyclist would produce around 3HP for a simialr period.

It may be surprising to many, but a golf swing is actually a big effort. This is why practising with loads of swings can lead to diminishing returns.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 12, 2019)

Dibby said:



			What do you consider a "small amount"?

To swing a driver at 100mph takes about 2HP. Assuming you take approx 40 full shots in a round, that's 40 seconds of effort at 2HP, but this could be doubled with practice swings.

To put that in perspective, during a 100m sprint, Usain Bolt would produce about 3HP for less than 10 seconds. If you asked him to do 1 sprint an hour for 4 hours, I would be willing to bet the last sprint would be slower than the first one.
An elite track cyclist would produce around 3HP for a simialr period.

It may be surprising to many, but a golf swing is actually a big effort. This is why practising with loads of swings can lead to diminishing returns.
		
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Very few club golfers' driver swingspeed is 100 mph or above despite the BS and, in any event,  those 40 swings are spread out over approx 4 hours  with  pronounced gaps (recovery periods) between them. 

To even reference Usain Bolt in the discussion is bizarre to say the least.


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## Dibby (Mar 12, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Very few club golfers' driver swingspeed is 100 mph or above despite the BS and, in any event,  those 40 swings are spread out over approx 4 hours  with  pronounced gaps (recovery periods) between them.

To even reference Usain Bolt in the discussion is bizarre to say the least.
		
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That's because either club golfers are inefficient, so they use the same power and get less speed, or they produce even less power, so still have to work at their maximum.

To reference Usain Bolt is to point out the effort in swinging a golf club is higher than people imagine, people can understand sprinting is a big effort, but commonly underestimate the effort to swing a golf club. The science in terms of power usage clearly shows this.  Every golf swing is like doing a sprint start, up to 5-10m. If you had to do 40 sprint starts over 4 hours, do you think the last one would be as fast as the first few?

Just because people don't feel something, doesn't make that real.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 12, 2019)

Dibby said:



			That's because either club golfers are inefficient, so they use the same power and get less speed, or they produce even less power, so still have to work at their maximum.

To reference Usain Bolt is to point out the effort in swinging a golf club is higher than people imagine, people can understand sprinting is a big effort, but commonly underestimate the effort to swing a golf club. The science in terms of power usage clearly shows this.  Every golf swing is like doing a sprint start, up to 5-10m. If you had to do 40 sprint starts over 4 hours, do you think the last one would be as fast as the first few?

Just because people don't feel something, doesn't make that real.
		
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What golfers swing  was measured (and by whom) to arrive at the claimed figures?

Were similar  readings taken with clubs other than the driver? After all, unless you are having a complete 'mare, you're not going to be hitting driver 40 times in a round.


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## Dibby (Mar 12, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			What golfers swing  was measured (and by whom) to arrive at the claimed figures?

Were similar  readings taken with clubs other than the driver? After all, unless you are having a complete 'mare, you're not going to be hitting driver 40 times in a round.
		
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The golfers swing is irrelevant, that would tell us more about how they develop that power, in terms of the power needed, all you need to know is the length and weight of a golf club, and how fast you want to move it. I believe this was originally calculated by CB Daish, but there have been plenty of similar studies since.

I don't know about other clubs, but it's a reasonable assumption to assume the change of effort needed is of minimal difference, because most distance loss from driver down the bag is through shorter shafts and more loft, not the golfer changing effort of the swing, until we get to less than full swings, pitch shots, chips etc...

My calculations may not be perfect, but they are based on science and facts. It's easy to find imperfections with them, but instead of doing that, why not share the basis for your claim that it's a small effort, apart from you think so?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 12, 2019)

Dibby said:



			The golfers swing is irrelevant, that would tell us more about how they develop that power, in terms of the power needed, all you need to know is the length and weight of a golf club, and how fast you want to move it. I believe this was originally calculated by CB Daish, but there have been plenty of similar studies since.

I don't know about other clubs, but it's a reasonable assumption to assume the change of effort needed is of minimal difference, because most distance loss from driver down the bag is through shorter shafts and more loft, not the golfer changing effort of the swing, until we get to less than full swings, pitch shots, chips etc...

My calculations may not be perfect, but they are based on science and facts. It's easy to find imperfections with them, but instead of doing that, why not share the basis for your claim that it's a small effort, apart from you think so?
		
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You mean with barely half researched phony science. 

I agree  I am making assumptions, based upon playing the game for over 45 years  but you are equally guilty with  your assumptions regarding other clubs.

After all the majority of swings in a round will be with those other clubs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 12, 2019)

Slab said:



@Â£275 buggy hire
One walking, one riding, Iâ€™ve never had that; what was the playing experience like driving round while your partner walked etc. Did he tend to walk with the other pairing or did you slow down to his pace and stick beside him?

Did you have any close calls where your partner nearly sat in the cart by accident or was it pretty smooth sailing from a rules perspective?

Well done again on the win, whens the final
		
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We had a member of our Team last year given permission to use a buggy in one match, Caddy walked alongside pulling his clubs.


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## Dibby (Mar 12, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			You mean with barely half researched phony science.

I agree  I am making assumptions, based upon playing the game for over 45 years  but you are equally guilty with  your assumptions regarding other clubs.

After all the majority of swings in a round will be with those other clubs.
		
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What part of it is phony? 
The calculation of the driver swing is based solidly in facts.

The calculation of full swings with other clubs is an educated guess, based on the facts that as you move down the set, the shaft gets shorter, the clubhead gets heavier, and the assumption that for most golfers the effort needed to move a heavier shorter club at a lower speed is not that much different to moving a longer, lighter club at a higher speed. 
Seeing as you disagree, what difference (in a measurable unit) do you think there is between driver and other clubs?

Even if we ignore everything, except driver and assume 1 practice swing and 1 real swing for 12 holes that it is used, it is still equivalent to 24 sprint starts. Perhaps your fitness levels are very high, and your idea of small effort is different to mine, but if I did 24 5-10m sprint starts, I would consider it a decent effort. 

I will leave it at that, as clearly you have your own opinion, but hopefully, you at least consider some of the science of the matter, rather than just dismiss it out of hand because I added a few assumptions and it disagrees with your preconceived notion.


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To try add a bit of balance to this

I have been in the opposing position when someone has asked to use a buggy because of injury - and because it states clearly in our rules and conditions of competition you must be on the authorised buggy list for permanent use or have a doctors note to use only temp in comps - to ensure all rules were adhered to and fair to all as well consist then they all got the same response, and yes someone was DQ for using a buggy in a Comp when they werenâ€™t on the list and didnâ€™t have a note  , thatâ€™s the rule of our comps and itâ€™s up to us all to ensure they are consistent to all
		
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Would you have accepted the Consultant's letter as evidence a buggy was required?


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## garyinderry (Mar 12, 2019)

Â£275 buggy hire said:



			The plot thickens she has only been chair of h,caps and comps for two months. She was in the pro shop when I arrived this morning and was disqualifying 15 members from Saturdays comp for not paying their comp entry fees by Friday night and paying in the pro shop on Saturday. She must have read the book â€˜ how to make enemies and cheese people offâ€™  itâ€™s comical.
		
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Do you guys always have to pay the night before ?   Is there no chance of becoming free and being able to rock up join in at the end of the comp?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 12, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Would you have accepted the Consultant's letter as evidence a buggy was required?
		
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Iâ€™m pretty sure we would have - I guessing the letter would state that he would medically need to use a buggy - or words to that effect

As long as there was something official from a medical person then yes they would be allowed initial temp use of a buggy and then if the person wanted to be on the Perm Buggy list - doctors note would then be needed to state that


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 12, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Do you guys always have to pay the night before ?   Is there no chance of becoming free and being able to rock up join in at the end of the comp?
		
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At ours we book comps online and if you havnt got sufficient funds in your account you canâ€™t put your name down.

I think is to do with the charges the bank put on banking cash.
Everything is on your club card.

If you rock up and there is a space the pro will put you in but it still goes off your card.


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## garyinderry (Mar 12, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			At ours we book comps online and if you havnt got sufficient funds in your account you canâ€™t put your name down.

I think is to do with the charges the bank put on banking cash.
Everything is on your club card.

If you rock up and there is a space the pro will put you in but it still goes off your card.
		
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Suppose it isn't hard to keep it topped up.  A function where you get a text if it runs out or low would be mighty handy. 

We just pay cold hard cash on arrival. Our comps are on all day too so you can turn up when you like and get out. Obviously the busy time will be booked out.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 12, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Suppose it isn't hard to keep it topped up.  A function where you get a text if it runs out or low would be mighty handy.

We just pay cold hard cash on arrival. Our comps are on all day too so you can turn up when you like and get out. Obviously the busy time will be booked out.
		
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We did have a problem last week.
Nobody told the members you canâ€™t use the levy money (Â£100) to pay your comp fees.
So lads with Â£102 on their cards were denied entry because of lack of funds. (Entry is Â£2.50).
That didnâ€™t go down well.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 12, 2019)

On our club cards it runs two separate accounts, one with a bar credit on (depending on how much you top up/spend) and a competition purse which deducts each time you sign into an event on PSI. If you don't have sufficient funds on the comp purse it won't let you sign in and as a result you won't be considered entered into the event. We have had guys unable to enter as they didn't have enough funds, the pro shop doesn't have access to that card system and the office and bar weren't open


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## Slab (Mar 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m pretty sure we would have - I guessing the letter would state that he would medically need to use a buggy - or words to that effect

As long as there was something official from a medical person then yes they would be allowed initial temp use of a buggy and then if the person wanted to be on the Perm Buggy list - doctors note would then be needed to state that
		
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I still wonder if it did say anything about ability to play golf though
I think a lot of the 'club bashers' assumed it did

The OP has described it as a letter from the consultant to his gp to update medical history 

I don't get why that kind of letter would contain anything to reference golf

And if it didn't mention golf or ability to walk etc we can maybe understand why the club might have taken the stance they did


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2019)

Slab said:



			I still wonder if it did say anything about ability to play golf though
I think a lot of the 'club bashers' assumed it did

The OP has described it as a letter from the consultant to his gp to update medical history

I don't get why that kind of letter would contain anything to reference golf

And if it didn't mention golf or ability to walk etc we can maybe understand why the club might have taken the stance they did
		
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He walks into office, says "I need to use a buggy. I've got a slipped disc and here's a letter from my consultant outlining my predicament".
A quick read and "yep, here's the keys"
There's nothing else needed.

It's a case, all to regularly these days, of Golf taking itself ridiculously seriously as if it's the centre of the universe.
I repeat my view from earlier..
They'd have been told to stick it and I'd find somewhere else to play.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			On our club cards it runs two separate accounts, one with a bar credit on (depending on how much you top up/spend) and a competition purse which deducts each time you sign into an event on PSI. If you don't have sufficient funds on the comp purse it won't let you sign in and as a result you won't be considered entered into the event. We have had guys unable to enter as they didn't have enough funds, the pro shop doesn't have access to that card system and the office and bar weren't open
		
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It seem laughable that you would need 2 accounts! We, like you we canâ€™t sign up without sufficient funds, money is removed from the card at time of entry.  The Pro Shop donâ€™t need access to cards or accounts, the only money that changes hands on the day is for the 2â€™s which is cash only.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 12, 2019)

HampshireHog said:



			It seem laughable that you would need 2 accounts! We, like you we canâ€™t sign up without sufficient funds, money is removed from the card at time of entry.  The Pro Shop donâ€™t need access to cards or accounts, the only money that changes hands on the day is for the 2â€™s which is cash only.
		
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We in theory have three.
Own money Food and drink levy. Canâ€™t pay comp entry.
Own money put on card anything in clubhouse.
Pro shop winnings twos etc.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 12, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			We in theory have three.
Own money Food and drink levy. Canâ€™t pay comp entry.
Own money put on card anything in clubhouse.
Pro shop winnings twos etc.
		
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Winnings aside, this sounds like madness.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 12, 2019)

HampshireHog said:



			Winnings aside, this sounds like madness.
		
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Yes but most lads have spent the levy within weeks but some hang on to it all year.
We had 15 members who never spent a penny in clubhouse last year and forfeited the levy.
Thatâ€™s madness.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 12, 2019)

HampshireHog said:



			It seem laughable that you would need 2 accounts! We, like you we canâ€™t sign up without sufficient funds, money is removed from the card at time of entry.  The Pro Shop donâ€™t need access to cards or accounts, the only money that changes hands on the day is for the 2â€™s which is cash only.
		
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Quite simply, the pro that came in two years ago now runs his own account (and reports into the office for his figures) and his system doesn't talk with PSI which is what we use to log in on comp days and takes the cash automatically and the system the kitchen and bar use. Basically we can use the card for food, drink and comps and have to run a separate account in the pro shop not on a card.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 12, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			In view of the very small amount of physical effort required to play a golf shot I struggle to see how a little fatigue will affect a player's ability.

Has any evidence ever been produced to support the theory?

And if a "level playing field" is to be created then surely caddies and trolleys also need to be banned.
		
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It's not the effort required to swing a club, it's the actual walking that makes a difference. At our county champs one year, a friend of mine wore a device that calculates how far he walked. Long course, walks between greens and tees, 36 holes in a day......total distance walked was 15 miles.


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## sunshine (Mar 12, 2019)

Dibby said:



			What do you consider a "small amount"?

To swing a driver at 100mph takes about 2HP. Assuming you take approx 40 full shots in a round, that's 40 seconds of effort at 2HP, but this could be doubled with practice swings.

To put that in perspective, during a 100m sprint, Usain Bolt would produce about 3HP for less than 10 seconds. If you asked him to do 1 sprint an hour for 4 hours, I would be willing to bet the last sprint would be slower than the first one.
An elite track cyclist would produce around 3HP for a simialr period.

It may be surprising to many, but a golf swing is actually a big effort. This is why practising with loads of swings can lead to diminishing returns.
		
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Hi I'm not a biomechanics expert, so please could you explain your analysis. What is this HP unit? Are you saying that one swing with a driver uses the same amount of effort as sprinting 66m?


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## Slab (Mar 13, 2019)

Imurg said:



			He walks into office, says "I need to use a buggy. I've got a slipped disc and here's a letter from my consultant outlining my predicament".
A quick read and "yep, here's the keys"
There's nothing else needed.

It's a case, all to regularly these days, of Golf taking itself ridiculously seriously as if it's the centre of the universe.
I repeat my view from earlier..
They'd have been told to stick it and I'd find somewhere else to play.
		
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I actually think most clubs would be sympathetic to the players situation when its as clear cut as you suggest, which is precisely why I questioned if it might not be that clear

It could very well be a comp sec just gone all 'rulesy' but all i'm saying is with the information we've been given it must be a possibility that the paperwork provided was not clear


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Hi I'm not a biomechanics expert, so please could you explain your analysis. What is this HP unit? Are you saying that one swing with a driver uses the same amount of effort as sprinting 66m?
		
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HP = Horsepower, or equivalent to 745 Watts if you prefer metric.

I am saying swinging a golfclub at 100mph requires the same amount of power as an elite sprinter produces when running the 100m. 

The duration of a golfswing is a lot shorter than a sprint though, so swinging a driver would be like firing out the blocks for the first 3-4 strides, and then stopping.


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

Just a digression, but it randomly crossed my mind, there is so much focus on the buggy, but potentially if painkillers have been prescribed, they may be on the WADA banned list, which golf now adheres to, as it's an Olympic sport! 

Might have to tip off UKADA if you win!  You might even get to experience the joy of someone watching you pee in a cup, whilst someone watches the person watching you pee in a cup, just to make sure they're watching properly! 

Obviously, the second line is being facetious, but it's interesting that there is so much focus on the buggy, and the potential banned substance issue isn't even considered. In this case, I think it's unlikely, but for example Codeine in on the WADA monitoring list, which means they are seeing if it should be banned, and there were (this was a couple of years ago when I checked) some versions of Lemsip on the banned list. I bet there are many golfers out there who have played a comp whilst taking Lemsip or Codeine.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Just a digression, but it randomly crossed my mind, there is so much focus on the buggy, but potentially if painkillers have been prescribed, they may be on the WADA banned list, which golf now adheres to, as it's an Olympic sport!

Might have to tip off UKADA if you win!  You might even get to experience the joy of someone watching you pee in a cup, whilst someone watches the person watching you pee in a cup, just to make sure they're watching properly!

Obviously, the second line is being facetious, but it's interesting that there is so much focus on the buggy, and the potential banned substance issue isn't even considered. In this case, I think it's unlikely, but for example Codeine in on the WADA monitoring list, which means they are seeing if it should be banned, and there were (this was a couple of years ago when I checked) some versions of Lemsip on the banned list. I bet there are many golfers out there who have played a comp whilst taking Lemsip or Codeine.
		
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How many golfers are on steroids and cociane 

Comp golfers arenâ€™t tested so it doesnâ€™t actually matter


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			How many golfers are on steroids and cociane

Comp golfers arenâ€™t tested so it doesnâ€™t actually matter
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying cheating doesn't matter if you don't get caught?

Not being tested, doesn't mean the rules don't apply.  If I don't count a stroke that nobody saw, is it ok, because nobody saw me breach the rule?

In reality, I don't believe many amateur golfers are gaining a significant advantage to this, but either you play by the rules or you don't. You can't ignore the rules that you disagree with, just because you know you can get away with them.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Are you saying cheating doesn't matter if you don't get caught?

Not being tested, doesn't mean the rules don't apply.  If I don't count a stroke that nobody saw, is it ok, because nobody saw me breach the rule?

In reality, I don't believe many amateur golfers are gaining a significant advantage to this, but either you play by the rules or you don't. You can't ignore the rules that you disagree with, just because you know you can get away with them.
		
Click to expand...

No it means the rules donâ€™t apply

Amateur golfers are not bound by drug rules in relation to things like lemsip


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			No it means the rules donâ€™t apply

Amateur golfers are not bound by drug rules in relation to things like lemsip
		
Click to expand...

Not true at all.



			
				England Golf said:
			
		


Weâ€™re committed to tackling doping and promoting the World Anti-Doping Code.

Our anti-doping programme helps us maintain the integrity of golf and protect the health and rights of players.

The code applies at all levels of golf for women, girls, men and boys. This includes players in our performance programmes, competitors in our championships and events, *and club golfers*.

Click to expand...

The bolding is mine for emphasis.

Source - England Golf


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Not true at all.



The bolding is mine for emphasis.

Source - England Golf

Click to expand...

If they donâ€™t test you then it isnâ€™t in force

No proof


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If they donâ€™t test you then it isnâ€™t in force

No proof
		
Click to expand...

Did you even read the pdf? 

Failing a test is a rule violation, but so is:




			Using, or attempting to use, a banned substance or method
		
Click to expand...

No mention of getting caught.

So back to my first response to you, you are saying it is ok to cheat if you don't get caught.

Noone saw me take that stroke, so if I don't count it, then it is ok?
Noone saw me drop a ball in the rough, because I couldn't find my original, fine because there is no proof?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Did you even read the pdf?

Failing a test is a rule violation, but so is:



No mention of getting caught.

So back to my first response to you, you are saying it is ok to cheat if you don't get caught.

Noone saw me take that stroke, so if I don't count it, then it is ok?
Noone saw me drop a ball in the rough, because I couldn't find my original, fine because there is no proof?
		
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Would you expect someone to be disqualified if before the comp they went to the entry team and said Iâ€™ve taken banned lemsip today 

I would expect them to be laughed at and told not to worry.


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Would you expect someone to be disqualified if before the comp they went to the entry team and said Iâ€™ve taken banned lemsip today

I would expect them to be laughed at and told not to worry.
		
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I would expect people to follow the rules, not agree to waive them because they have their own ideas of what the rules should be.

If you are a member of a club which rolls up to England golf, you have agreed to follow England golfs doping policy. You either follow their rules, or don't sign up to them in the first place. 



			
				England Golf said:
			
		


			If you are a member of England Golf then the anti-doping rules apply to you, regardless of what level you participate at.
		
Click to expand...




			
				England Golf said:
			
		


			What is Strict Liability?  All athletes need to be aware of the principle of strict liability. This means that all athletes are solely responsible for any banned substance they use, attempt to use, or that is found in their system, regardless of how it got there and whether or not they had an intention to cheat. It is crucial that athletes check all medications are safe to take prior to use. Medications can be checked online via Global DRO. Athletes must undertake thorough internet research of any supplement products before use â€“ including the name of the product and the ingredients/substances listed. Information revealed as a result should be further investigated and we advise athletes to keep evidence of their search.
		
Click to expand...

Funny how sometimes we follow rules and sometimes we don't care about them. I would expect someone who complained about a van being in a parent a child bay to be laughed at, but there we go!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			I would expect people to follow the rules, not agree to waive them because they have their own ideas of what the rules should be.

If you are a member of a club which rolls up to England golf, you have agreed to follow England golfs doping policy. You either follow their rules, or don't sign up to them in the first place.





Funny how sometimes we follow rules and sometimes we don't care about them. I would expect someone who complained about a van being in a parent a child bay to be laughed at, but there we go!
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t not follow the rules as I Am not a member of golf England. However I work for a company that randomly drug tests so stick to their rules as they actually are enforceable and important

If I was a club golfer I wouldnâ€™t think twice before taking lemsip but I wouldnâ€™t take steroids.. different levels


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I donâ€™t not follow the rules as I Am not a member of golf England. However I work for a company that randomly drug tests so stick to their rules as they actually are enforceable and important

If I was a club golfer I wouldnâ€™t think twice before taking lemsip but I wouldnâ€™t take steroids.. different levels
		
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Non-club golfers playing with their mates can do what they like, gimmes, mulligans, snorting cocaine off the tee markers if they choose. 

As we are talking about a club competition, the assumption is that the person is a club member. 

If the club member hasn't read the anti-doping rules or chooses to ignore them, whether that is with the intention of gaining an advantage or not, the rules are clear that this is a violation. The penalties for such are enforceable and range from 2 year bans up to lifetime bans from competing. 
There are no levels of substances in the anti-doping rules, beyond those substances that are banned only in competition and substances that are banned even out of competition.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Non-club golfers playing with their mates can do what they like, gimmes, mulligans, snorting cocaine off the tee markers if they choose.

As we are talking about a club competition, the assumption is that the person is a club member.

If the club member hasn't read the anti-doping rules or chooses to ignore them, whether that is with the intention of gaining an advantage or not, the rules are clear that this is a violation. The penalties for such are enforceable and range from 2 year bans up to lifetime bans from competing.
There are no levels of substances in the anti-doping rules, beyond those substances that are banned only in competition and substances that are banned even out of competition.
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find many people have unknowingly been foul of this rule for many years as I doubt anyone actually checks the drugs the drs give them considering we are not professional athletes


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I think you will find many people have unknowingly been foul of this rule for many years as I doubt anyone actually checks the drugs the drs give them considering we are not professional athletes
		
Click to expand...

I would bet my mortgage that this is true. Doesn't change the fact they broke the rules, irrespective of whether they got away with it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			I would bet my mortgage that this is true. Doesn't change the fact they broke the rules, irrespective of whether they got away with it.
		
Click to expand...

However many if not all of these people are some of the most honest and rule upholding people about are they not?

It seems blooming stupid to make them all cheaters but a rule that will never be enforced


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			I would bet my mortgage that this is true. Doesn't change the fact they broke the rules, irrespective of whether they got away with it.
		
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You are blowing this way out of proportion. We are recreational golfers playing for fun not professional athletes.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			You are blowing this way out of proportion. We are recreational golfers playing for fun not professional athletes.
		
Click to expand...

There's no issue to small on this forum to blow way out of proportion. Every possible angle needs to be addressed and scrutinized to see if it is in line with rules and regulations and it has to be done in the most serious way.

It's comical actually.


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However many if not all of these people are some of the most honest and rule upholding people about are they not?

It seems blooming stupid to make them all cheaters but a rule that will never be enforced
		
Click to expand...




drive4show said:



			You are blowing this way out of proportion. We are recreational golfers playing for fun not professional athletes.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't make the rules, I don't say whether I agree with them or not, I am just telling you what they are.

If you don't adhere to all the rules of golf that you agreed to, how do you decide which ones you bother with?


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## Duckster (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Non-club golfers playing with their mates can do what they like, gimmes, mulligans, snorting cocaine off the tee markers if they choose.

As we are talking about a club competition, the assumption is that the person is a club member.

If the club member hasn't read the anti-doping rules or chooses to ignore them, whether that is with the intention of gaining an advantage or not, the rules are clear that this is a violation. The penalties for such are enforceable and range from 2 year bans up to lifetime bans from competing.
There are no levels of substances in the anti-doping rules, beyond those substances that are banned only in competition and substances that are banned even out of competition.
		
Click to expand...

But the Anti-doping rules do not apply to club golfers.
They are only for the elite amateur events organised by England Golf.  As per the PDF on their website:

*"1.2.1 For the purposes of Anti-Doping Control, these Rules shall apply to: a. the following persons (â€œPlayersâ€): *
_*i. Any person who is a member of any England Golf squad and any other person selected to represent England at International Events. (â€œElite Amateur National Playersâ€); and 
ii. Any person playing in any of the following National Scratch Competitions: The English Boysâ€™ Under 14 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Boysâ€™ Under 16 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Boysâ€™ Under 18 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Menâ€™s Open Amateur Stroke Play Championship. The English Menâ€™s Seniorsâ€™ Open Amateur Championship English Menâ€™s Amateur Championship, The English Menâ€™s Open Mid-Amateur Championship; *_
*iii Any person playing in any of the following National Scratch Competitions: The English Girlsâ€™ Under 13 Amateur Championship. The English Girlsâ€™ Under 15 Amateur Championship. The English Girlsâ€™ Under 18 Amateur Championship. The English Ladiesâ€™ Close Amateur Championship. England Golf Anti-Doping Regulations. Approved 23 December 2015 The English Ladiesâ€™ Open Amateur Stroke Play Championship. The English Women Seniorsâ€™ Amateur Championship. The English Women Seniorsâ€™ open stroke play Championship. The English Womenâ€™s Open Mid-Amateur Championship Also, any golfer competing in an Event or Competition organised, convened or recognised by England Golf. "*

So not your local's monthly medal.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			I didn't make the rules, I don't say whether I agree with them or not, I am just telling you what they are.

If you don't adhere to all the rules of golf that you agreed to, how do you decide which ones you bother with?
		
Click to expand...

Make sure you don't enter the competition this weekend if you've taken any Night Nurse in the last 6 months ðŸ‘


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Duckster said:



			But the Anti-doping rules do not apply to club golfers.
They are only for the elite amateur events organised by England Golf.  As per the PDF on their website:

*"1.2.1 For the purposes of Anti-Doping Control, these Rules shall apply to: a. the following persons (â€œPlayersâ€): *
_*i. Any person who is a member of any England Golf squad and any other person selected to represent England at International Events. (â€œElite Amateur National Playersâ€); and 
ii. Any person playing in any of the following National Scratch Competitions: The English Boysâ€™ Under 14 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Boysâ€™ Under 16 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Boysâ€™ Under 18 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Menâ€™s Open Amateur Stroke Play Championship. The English Menâ€™s Seniorsâ€™ Open Amateur Championship English Menâ€™s Amateur Championship, The English Menâ€™s Open Mid-Amateur Championship; *_
*iii Any person playing in any of the following National Scratch Competitions: The English Girlsâ€™ Under 13 Amateur Championship. The English Girlsâ€™ Under 15 Amateur Championship. The English Girlsâ€™ Under 18 Amateur Championship. The English Ladiesâ€™ Close Amateur Championship. England Golf Anti-Doping Regulations. Approved 23 December 2015 The English Ladiesâ€™ Open Amateur Stroke Play Championship. The English Women Seniorsâ€™ Amateur Championship. The English Women Seniorsâ€™ open stroke play Championship. The English Womenâ€™s Open Mid-Amateur Championship Also, any golfer competing in an Event or Competition organised, convened or recognised by England Golf. "*

So not your local's monthly medal.
		
Click to expand...

OMG.... I've played in some of those events, I probably had paracetamol in my bag! Should I contact England Golf and retrospectively disqualify myself?


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

Duckster said:



			But the Anti-doping rules do not apply to club golfers.
They are only for the elite amateur events organised by England Golf.  As per the PDF on their website:

*"1.2.1 For the purposes of Anti-Doping Control, these Rules shall apply to: a. the following persons (â€œPlayersâ€): *
_*i. Any person who is a member of any England Golf squad and any other person selected to represent England at International Events. (â€œElite Amateur National Playersâ€); and 
ii. Any person playing in any of the following National Scratch Competitions: The English Boysâ€™ Under 14 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Boysâ€™ Under 16 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Boysâ€™ Under 18 Open Amateur Stroke Play Championships. The English Menâ€™s Open Amateur Stroke Play Championship. The English Menâ€™s Seniorsâ€™ Open Amateur Championship English Menâ€™s Amateur Championship, The English Menâ€™s Open Mid-Amateur Championship; *_
*iii Any person playing in any of the following National Scratch Competitions: The English Girlsâ€™ Under 13 Amateur Championship. The English Girlsâ€™ Under 15 Amateur Championship. The English Girlsâ€™ Under 18 Amateur Championship. The English Ladiesâ€™ Close Amateur Championship. England Golf Anti-Doping Regulations. Approved 23 December 2015 The English Ladiesâ€™ Open Amateur Stroke Play Championship. The English Women Seniorsâ€™ Amateur Championship. The English Women Seniorsâ€™ open stroke play Championship. The English Womenâ€™s Open Mid-Amateur Championship Also, any golfer competing in an Event or Competition organised, convened or recognised by England Golf. "*

So not your local's monthly medal.
		
Click to expand...

Can you share the link? 
That's not the same pdf I linked to, so interested to see it.

What rules are being referred to though? I am aware that doping control (another word for testing) is only administered at elite level, but the rules about substances still apply to lower levels, but work on trust rather than testing, due to cost and administrative hassle.


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## Duckster (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Can you share the link?
That's not the same pdf I linked to, so interested to see it.

What rules are being referred to though? I am aware that doping control (another word for testing) is only administered at elite level, but the rules about substances still apply to lower levels, but work on trust rather than testing, due to cost and administrative hassle.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.englandgolf.org/download/anti-doping-rules/

Page 9 show's all the events that would be covered.


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Make sure you don't enter the competition this weekend if you've taken any Night Nurse in the last 6 months ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

If you disagree with the rules, contact England golf and try get them changed. Why mock me, just for pointing them out?

You still never answered how you decided which rules you follow? 
It's easy to say common sense, but then everything becomes a grey area. RUles for sport are a lot easier when they are black and white, even if this is unpopular.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

Anti doping rules in regards some controlled substances only apply to specific levels in the sports

Club golfers playing recreational donâ€™t come under the strict doping regs - same with certain levels of football and rugby etc 

As soon as my wife for example moved up to play National League Hockey she then had to comply with the doping list - lemsip is fine but certain Beachams and Sudafed etc is on the banned list and when she got painkillers she had to declare them before each match etc


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

Duckster said:



https://www.englandgolf.org/download/anti-doping-rules/

Page 9 show's all the events that would be covered.
		
Click to expand...

That's labelled 2015 version. The one I linked is 2016 version, so presumably, the newer version supercedes.


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anti doping rules in regards some controlled substances only apply to specific levels in the sports

Club golfers playing recreational donâ€™t come under the strict doping regs - same with certain levels of football and rugby etc

As soon as my wife for example moved up to play National League Hockey she then had to comply with the doping list - lemsip is fine but certain Beachams and Sudafed etc is on the banned list and when she got painkillers she had to declare them before each match etc
		
Click to expand...

The rules usually apply to everyone, but people are only tested at higher levels.

In practice, it means what you say is true, but in principle, it is not.


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## Duckster (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			That's labelled 2015 version. The one I linked is 2016 version, so presumably, the newer version supercedes.
		
Click to expand...

No, the one I posted is the actual rules for England Golf regarding Anti-doping and who it effects.

The one you linked to is just the guidance for anti-doping.  It doesn't supersede the rules (which if you type in anti-doping on the England Golf website, pops up top of the list)


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			If you disagree with the rules, contact England golf and try get them changed. Why mock me, just for pointing them out?

You still never answered how you decided which rules you follow?
It's easy to say common sense, but then everything becomes a grey area. RUles for sport are a lot easier when they are black and white, even if this is unpopular.
		
Click to expand...

I believe you're being "mocked" cause you seem to take the stance that if someone of your playing partners and/or opponents would be "caught" taking a Lemsip you'd raise that and report it. Cause he's breaking the rules, and that we cannot have...


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

Duckster said:



			No, the one I posted is the actual rules for England Golf regarding Anti-doping and who it effects.

The one you linked to is just the guidance for how those players are effected.
		
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You are right.

Having re-read it, my understanding is the list of limitations you post apply to doping control (testing) but the use of prohibited substances is still banned at all levels, just not policed or tested for.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			If you disagree with the rules, contact England golf and try get them changed. Why mock me, just for pointing them out?

You still never answered how you decided which rules you follow?
It's easy to say common sense, but then everything becomes a grey area. RUles for sport are a lot easier when they are black and white, even if this is unpopular.
		
Click to expand...

OK, thanks for pointing out the rules. There is a stableford on at my club this weekend which I'm planning to enter. I'll check with the general manager on the club's anti doping policy before I put my name down. Hopefully I'm clean because I certainly don't want to be labelled a cheat!


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

Lilyhawk said:



			I believe you're being "mocked" cause you seem to take the stance that if someone of your playing partners and/or opponents would be "caught" taking a Lemsip you'd raise that and report it. Cause he's breaking the rules, and that we cannot have...
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say I'd report it? 
I joked with a smiley and even said I was being facetious.

I do think the topic of doping is a serious issue in sports, though not necessarily at club level in golf.


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## Dan2501 (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			OK, thanks for pointing out the rules. There is a stableford on at my club this weekend which I'm planning to enter. I'll check with the general manager on the club's anti doping policy before I put my name down. Hopefully I'm clean because I certainly don't want to be labelled a cheat!
		
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Same. I better contact UKADA and get a theraputic use exemption for the prescribed corticosteroids I'm on, don't want to be randomly drug tested after finishing my round on Saturday and be accused of cheating.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Where did I say I'd report it?
I joked with a smiley and even said I was being facetious.

I do think the topic of doping is a serious issue in sports, though not necessarily at club level in golf.
		
Click to expand...

You didn't say it. It was an assumption from me based on what you've written in this thread in the follow up to the first post. I don't know how to add all the previous posts so I've just copied and pasted below. 

Perhaps it's simply a misunderstanding from my side, or it could be that you weren't very clear in what you wanted to say. 

No matter what, I believe we all have better things to do than to drag this on.  

---------

_"If you disagree with the rules, contact England golf and try get them changed. Why mock me, just for pointing them out?

You still never answered how you decided which rules you follow? 
*It's easy to say common sense, but then everything becomes a grey area. RUles for sport are a lot easier when they are black and white, even if this is unpopular."*_

-----------------------------------

_"I didn't make the rules, I don't say whether I agree with them or not, I am just telling you what they are.

*If you don't adhere to all the rules of golf that you agreed to, how do you decide which ones you bother with?"*_

_*------------------------------------------------------*_

_*"I would expect people to follow the rules, not agree to waive them because they have their own ideas of what the rules should be.*

If you are a member of a club which rolls up to England golf, you have agreed to follow England golfs doping policy. *You either follow their rules, or don't sign up to them in the first place.*"_

_--------------------------------------------_

_*"Funny how sometimes we follow rules and sometimes we don't care about them."*_


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## Dibby (Mar 13, 2019)

Lilyhawk said:



			You didn't say it. It was an assumption from me based on what you've written in this thread in the follow up to the first post. I don't know how to add all the previous posts so I've just copied and pasted below.

Perhaps it's simply a misunderstanding from my side, or it could be that you weren't very clear in what you wanted to say.

No matter what, I believe we all have better things to do than to drag this on. 

---------

_"If you disagree with the rules, contact England golf and try get them changed. Why mock me, just for pointing them out?_

_You still never answered how you decided which rules you follow? 
*It's easy to say common sense, but then everything becomes a grey area. RUles for sport are a lot easier when they are black and white, even if this is unpopular."*_

-----------------------------------

_"I didn't make the rules, I don't say whether I agree with them or not, I am just telling you what they are._

_*If you don't adhere to all the rules of golf that you agreed to, how do you decide which ones you bother with?"*_

_*------------------------------------------------------*_

_*"I would expect people to follow the rules, not agree to waive them because they have their own ideas of what the rules should be.*_

_If you are a member of a club which rolls up to England golf, you have agreed to follow England golfs doping policy. *You either follow their rules, or don't sign up to them in the first place.*"_

_--------------------------------------------_

_*"Funny how sometimes we follow rules and sometimes we don't care about them."*_

Click to expand...

I meant exactly what I said, If I voluntarily sign up to some rules, I would follow them and expect others to do the same. However, I generally  (maybe naively) trust others to do this, I don't investigate, or enforce the rules personally. I don't really see how this could be considered an unreasonable position.

I am fine to leave it there, as clearly this is a topic where people have already set their opinions, but I am still unclear as to how you decide which rules to bother with.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dibby said:



			but I am still unclear as to how you decide which rules to bother with.
		
Click to expand...

It's called applying common sense.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			It's called applying common sense.
		
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How many rules do you ignore because they donâ€™t suit your definition of common sense?


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## TheJezster (Mar 13, 2019)

OMG, This is priceless!  People actually pointing out drug rules (lemsip for Christs sake)!! to recreational golfers!!

You couldnt make it up, some people just arent very good at, well, life it seems!

This place does make me laugh, you cant fail to get a holier than thou attitude on pretty much any subject :-D


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			How many rules do you ignore because they donâ€™t suit your definition of common sense?
		
Click to expand...

All of them..... happy now?


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			OMG, This is priceless!  People actually pointing out drug rules (lemsip for Christs sake)!! to recreational golfers!!

You couldnt make it up, some people just arent very good at, well, life it seems!

This place does make me laugh, you cant fail to get a holier than thou attitude on pretty much any subject :-D
		
Click to expand...

At what level of competition do you consider rule breaking to be an offence then?


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## TheJezster (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			At what level of competition do you consider rule breaking to be an offence then?
		
Click to expand...

As a recreational golfer it's not something I even have to think about, and nor should it.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			As a recreational golfer it's not something I even have to think about, and nor should it.
		
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The should or shouldn't isn't what I asked you. I asked at what level of competition you wouldn't (hypothetically) break a rule regarding the use of banned substances?


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## TheJezster (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The should or shouldn't isn't what I asked you. I asked at what level of competition you wouldn't (hypothetically) break a rule regarding the use of banned substances?
		
Click to expand...

Again, it's not something which I even have to think about.  As a recreational golfer and club member it's not even on my radar of things to worry about.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 13, 2019)

*At the bar in the golf club*

- Where were you in last week's medal? Surprised as you always turn up.

- Sorry, but I had a Lemsip the night before.

- What?

- I said, I had a Lemsip the night before.

- Yes, I understand and know what a Lemsip is, but you felt so sick that you couldn't play the next day then you mean?

- No.

- So why didn't you play?

- I've told you twice already - I TOOK A LEMSIP THE NIGHT BEFORE!!!

- AND I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DIDN'T PLAY THE NEXT DAY IF YOU DIDN'T FEEL SICK!

- Cause it's an illegal substance and I'm no cheat.

- Oh, ok.

Said no recreational golfer. Ever.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			At what level of competition do you consider rule breaking to be an offence then?
		
Click to expand...

I suppose you have never broken any rules then. Ever done 31mph in a 30?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I suppose you have never broken any rules then. Ever done 31mph in a 30?
		
Click to expand...

Why under the influence of lemsip


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## Dan2501 (Mar 13, 2019)

How long does Lemsip stay in the system? I don't want to risk breaking the rules by competing with picograms of Lemsip metabolite in my system.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dan2501 said:



			How long does Lemsip stay in the system? I don't want to risk breaking the rules by competing with picograms of Lemsip metabolite in my system.
		
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I think if you give it 6-8 months your fine but just have a blood wash out to avoid any issues


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Dan2501 said:



			How long does Lemsip stay in the system? I don't want to risk breaking the rules by competing with picograms of Lemsip metabolite in my system.
		
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Sorry to break this to you but you probably won't be able to play bowls either


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 13, 2019)

Ludicrous at this level. Take it to a simple base level. How many of us (myself included) take all sort of drugs for ailments like diabetes, cholesterol, blood pressure, heart conditions etc. I am sure if you dug deep enough some of these components would be on the banned list in some derivative. Does that mean we are all DQ'd and should hand any winnings, trophies etc back. Of course not. We play the game for fun and unless we are ever going to hit the higher levels and start competing at top end amateur level its not going to make a difference


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I suppose you have never broken any rules then. Ever done 31mph in a 30?
		
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Howâ€™s that relevant to my question?

Google whataboutery.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Howâ€™s that relevant to my question?

Google whataboutery.
		
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It's relevant because it's breaking a rule. Something you seem to be claiming nobody should ever do.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			It's relevant because it's breaking a rule. Something you seem to be claiming nobody should ever do.
		
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Show me where I claimed that.

When you try youâ€™ll actually see me asking someone to clarify their stance on breaking rules without once stating my own.

Youâ€™ll also see that I donâ€™t compare incomparable situations, whereas you have.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Show me where I claimed that.

When you try youâ€™ll actually see me asking someone to clarify their stance on breaking rules without once stating my own.

Youâ€™ll also see that I donâ€™t compare incomparable situations, whereas you have.
		
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OK, let's look at this a slightly different way. Why should I engage in a discussion with you when you have openly stated yourself that you like to post controversial opinions?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 13, 2019)

Oh look

Another thread that has "CLOSE ME " written all over it..........................


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			OK, let's look at this a slightly different way. Why should I engage in a discussion with you when you have openly stated yourself that you like to post controversial opinions?
		
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I havenâ€™t given any opinions. 

And so you only talk to people who agree with you?

I suggest you take this topic back on topic and perhaps answer my questions.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 13, 2019)

Hmm. 

â€œShow ignored contentâ€. 

Nah, Iâ€™ll pass. I know roughly what he has to say anyway, and which is why itâ€™s ignored.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I havenâ€™t given any opinions.

And so you only talk to people who agree with you?

I suggest you take this topic back on topic and perhaps answer my questions.
		
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No, I don't only talk to people who agree with me. 
You questioned my ability to make a judgement based on common sense, thanks for that. Do you walk around with rule books to cover every eventuality and consult them before making a decision? Or do you apply common sense and make what is 'probably' the correct decision in most cases?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 13, 2019)

May I refer current posters to post number 206 above.................


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Oh look

Another thread that has "CLOSE ME " written all over it..........................
		
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PhilTheFragger said:



			May I refer current posters to post number 206 above.................
		
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Just seen that Phil, probably not a bad idea to be honest


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			No, I don't only talk to people who agree with me.
You questioned my ability to make a judgement based on common sense, thanks for that. Do you walk around with rule books to cover every eventuality and consult them before making a decision? Or do you apply common sense and make what is 'probably' the correct decision in most cases?
		
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Maybe I agree with you on this. You donâ€™t know BECAUSE I HAVENâ€™T SAID.


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## ExRabbit (Mar 14, 2019)




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## backwoodsman (Mar 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			You are right.

Having re-read it, my understanding is the list of limitations you post apply to doping control (testing) but the use of prohibited substances is still banned at all levels, just not policed or tested for.
		
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FWIW,  I don't think you are "understanding" correctly.  You appear to be restricting the use of the phrase "anti drug control" to the element of testing. I don't see anything in the document that limits the phrase that way.  I think it is very evident  that "anti drug control" relates to the whole gamut of systems, strategies  &  processes to intended to eliminate inappropriate drug use. Testing & investigation ("control" as you choose to term it), is only a subset of the overall rules.

But to illustrate ...

1. The "prohibited list" lists the substances of concern (Lemsip may or may not be in it - I haven't checked ðŸ˜)
2. It is only the anti doping rules which prohibit the use of prohibited substances (effectively para 2.1)
3. The anti doping rules only apply to those persons defined as "players"within the rules .
4. The rules don't define us mere mortals as "players", (para 1.2.1 and the definitions).  
5. Therefore the prohibition doesn't apply to us at our level.

If you look at the formal definition of "player" it is clear a National body could include us if it so chose (& presumably if it could justify it).  But para 1.2.1 clearly shows they have not chosen to do so. 

I'm now off to Boots to stock up for the weekend - I might slip a few sachets into the bag of anyone who finishes above me at the weekend. But I don't think its worth it .


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## Dibby (Mar 14, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			FWIW,  I don't think you are "understanding" correctly.  You appear to be restricting the use of the phrase "anti drug control" to the element of testing. I don't see anything in the document that limits the phrase that way.  I think it is very evident  that "anti drug control" relates to the whole gamut of systems, strategies  &  processes to intended to eliminate inappropriate drug use. Testing & investigation ("control" as you choose to term it), is only a subset of the overall rules.

But to illustrate ...

1. The "prohibited list" lists the substances of concern (Lemsip may or may not be in it - I haven't checked ðŸ˜)
2. It is only the anti doping rules which prohibit the use of prohibited substances (effectively para 2.1)
3. The anti doping rules only apply to those persons defined as "players"within the rules .
4. The rules don't define us mere mortals as "players", (para 1.2.1 and the definitions).
5. Therefore the prohibition doesn't apply to us at our level.

If you look at the formal definition of "player" it is clear a National body could include us if it so chose (& presumably if it could justify it).  But para 1.2.1 clearly shows they have not chosen to do so.

I'm now off to Boots to stock up for the weekend - I might slip a few sachets into the bag of anyone who finishes above me at the weekend. But I don't think its worth it .
		
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Actually, having re-read it, I take back my comment from my previous post.

The guidance published in 2016 clearly states:



			
				England Golf said:
			
		


			England Golf has in place a set of anti-doping rules that all athletes, coaches and athlete support personnel must abide by. The anti-doping rules for England Golf are consistent with the World Anti-Doping Code (2015 Code), which governs anti-doping internationally.You can find the UK Anti-Doping Rules [www.ukad.org.uk/resources/document/uk-anti-doping-rules] here.(1)*The anti-doping rules of England Golf are the UK Anti-Doping Rules published by UK Anti-Doping (or its successor), as amended from time to time. Such rules shall take effect and be construed as the rules of England Golf. If you are a member of England Golf then the anti-doping rules apply to you, regardless of what level you participate at. *

Click to expand...

There are 2 points I take from this (bolded parts in particular):

1. Whatever rules they published under their own name in 2015 have been superceded by the UKADA rules.
2. The rules apply to everyone, regardless of level.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Actually, having re-read it, I take back my comment from my previous post.

The guidance published in 2016 clearly states:



There are 2 points I take from this (bolded parts in particular):

1. Whatever rules they published under their own name in 2015 have been superceded by the UKADA rules.
2. The rules apply to everyone, regardless of level.
		
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I still think you'll find the rules don't apply to everyone. They still only apply to "athletes" who, for the purpose of anti doping rules, are defined within the UKAD rules as  "Any Person who *competes* at any level in the sport *under the jurisdiction of the NGB*".  The normal competitions run by clubs are not under the jurisdiction of the NGB (ie England Golf)  - so we are not competing at any level under their jurisdiction - so we are still outside the scope of those rules. There are plenty of comps which _are_ under the jurisdiction of England Golf - the Brabazon Trophy possibly being the most notable - but not ones monthly medal.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			I still think you'll find the rules don't apply to everyone. They still only apply to "athletes" who, for the purpose of anti doping rules, are defined within the UKAD rules as  "Any Person who *competes* at any level in the sport *under the jurisdiction of the NGB*".  The normal competitions run by clubs are not under the jurisdiction of the NGB (ie England Golf)  - so we are not competing at any level under their jurisdiction - so we are still outside the scope of those rules. There are plenty of comps which _are_ under the jurisdiction of England Golf - the Brabazon Trophy possibly being the most notable - but not ones monthly medal.
		
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I think we should email them and ask look I took a lemsip where do I stand


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## Dibby (Mar 14, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			I still think you'll find the rules don't apply to everyone. They still only apply to "athletes" who, for the purpose of anti doping rules, are defined within the UKAD rules as  "Any Person who *competes* at any level in the sport *under the jurisdiction of the NGB*".  The normal competitions run by clubs are not under the jurisdiction of the NGB (ie England Golf)  - so we are not competing at any level under their jurisdiction - so we are still outside the scope of those rules. There are plenty of comps which _are_ under the jurisdiction of England Golf - the Brabazon Trophy possibly being the most notable - but not ones monthly medal.
		
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I think it's pretty clear cut, why do you only bold "competes" and ignore the following words "at any level"? 

England golf make the statement.

*If you are a member of England Golf then the anti-doping rules apply to you, regardless of what level you participate at. *

They obviously consider being a member of England golf as competing under their jurisdiction. I would think it reasonable to assume they correctly understand their own jurisdiction.



pauljames87 said:



			I think we should email them and ask look I took a lemsip where do I stand
		
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Can we stop with the lemsip jokes now? I can take a joke at my expense, and it's a funny scenario to consider because although it's technically correct, it's also a bit ridiculous, but just repeating the same thing over and over, doesn't really add to the conversation.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Can we stop with the lemsip jokes now? I can take a joke at my expense, and it's a funny scenario to consider because although it's technically correct, it's also a bit ridiculous, but just repeating the same thing over and over, doesn't really add to the conversation.
		
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OK, we can change it to ibuprofen if you prefer?


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## Dibby (Mar 14, 2019)

drive4show said:



			OK, we can change it to ibuprofen if you prefer?
		
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If you're going to make a bad joke, at least get it technically correct, and pick a substance that is actually on the banned list.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			If you're going to make a bad joke, at least get it technically correct, and pick a substance that is actually on the banned list.
		
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If you really want to be pedantic, lemsip isn't currently banned either.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			I think it's pretty clear cut, why do you only bold "competes" and ignore the following words "at any level"?

England golf make the statement.

*If you are a member of England Golf then the anti-doping rules apply to you, regardless of what level you participate at. *

They obviously consider being a member of England golf as competing under their jurisdiction. I would think it reasonable to assume they correctly understand their own jurisdiction.



Can we stop with the lemsip jokes now? I can take a joke at my expense, and it's a funny scenario to consider because although it's technically correct, it's also a bit ridiculous, but just repeating the same thing over and over, doesn't really add to the conversation.
		
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The bits I highlighted bold  were to emphasise that the rules apply if you are competing under the jurisdiction of the national body - but the whole phrase was lifted straight from the current rules. Yes, you can be competing at any level, and yes England Golf have jurisdiction over  various competions at varying levels. But the rules say "competing ... under the jurisdiction of the national body".  I still maintain that yer basic monthly medal does not meet that criterion,  but it is evident you are not going to agree - so I can't see much point in me arguing further.


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## Dibby (Mar 14, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			The bits I highlighted bold  were to emphasise that the rules apply if you are competing under the jurisdiction of the national body - but the whole phrase was lifted straight from the current rules. Yes, you can be competing at any level, and yes England Golf have jurisdiction over  various competions at varying levels. But the rules say "competing ... under the jurisdiction of the national body".  I still maintain that yer basic monthly medal does not meet that criterion,  but it is evident you are not going to agree - so I can't see much point in me arguing further.

Click to expand...

One last thought, and then if we still disagree, I will stop there. 

It's clear that you are assuming the competition itself is under the jurisdiction of England golf, I think this is where we differ.

"Any Person who competes at any level in the sport under the jurisdiction of the NGB".

Taking the statement above, I am reading the subject of the sentence to be the athlete. So to my interpretation, it is not saying the competition has to be under the jurisdiction of England golf, just the athlete. That is to say, by being a member of England golf, you are within their jurisdiction, even if the competition you play in is not. 

If that makes sense, great, if not even if we disagree, at least we understand why the other thinks the way they do.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 14, 2019)

I'm with backwoodsman on this. I don't see how an athlete can come under the jurisdiction of the governing body whereas I can see how a competition does. Once an athlete enters then he comes under its jurisdiction.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I'm with backwoodsman on this. I don't see how an athlete can come under the jurisdiction of the governing body whereas I can see how a competition does. Once an athlete enters then he comes under its jurisdiction.
		
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Just think of it this way.. no matter how fat any of us are we are athletes


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## Dibby (Mar 14, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I'm with backwoodsman on this. I don't see how an athlete can come under the jurisdiction of the governing body whereas I can see how a competition does. Once an athlete enters then he comes under its jurisdiction.
		
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That would be true if the athlete wasn't a member of England Golf.

By paying your subscription and becoming a member, you come under their jurisdiction through being a member of their organisation.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			That would be true if the athlete wasn't a member of England Golf.

By paying your subscription and becoming a member, you come under their jurisdiction through being a member of their organisation.
		
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I understand what you are saying but that means every club member in England is bound by WADA rules even if they only enter the odd club stable Ford. Which goes back to not being able to take Lemsip before playing in a medal, it just isn't workable.


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## Dibby (Mar 14, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I understand what you are saying but that means every club member in England is bound by WADA rules even if they only enter the odd club stable Ford. Which goes back to not being able to take Lemsip before playing in a medal, it just isn't workable.
		
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Yes, exactly, and that's a different point. Of course, it's unworkable, which is why there is no testing and registration because the cost and admin would be huge. 

The fact the rule may not be easy to prove, or enforce doesn't remove the existence of the rule.

However, you can't remove the rule, because although most participants will get nowhere near the elite level, without the rule you are saying elite athletes can dope, until they reach the elite level. You could pull a promising youngster out of the representative teams and competitions and drug them up into the bionic man, and then release them back into sanctioned competitions. This is likely less useful for golf than other sports, but the rules are blanket rather than sport specific.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 14, 2019)

Ok, I said I'd not debate  further - and I think we'll still disagree, but one final go. (And crikey, it is a lot harder to convey in writing what one is thinking ...)

Starting with..
_"Any Person who competes at any level in the sport under the jurisdiction of the NGB"_

So, we agree that are talking about golf, and that the "at any level" bit applies, so we can drop the middle bit out. Which leaves us
_"Any Person who competes under the jurisdiction of the NGB"_

If it was merely the athlete who was under jurisdiction of the NGB, the "who competes" words would be superfluous to the statement. 

And as we know, in all things "rules-like", wording tends to be precise - and every word tends to be there for a reason.  So, to me, the "who competes... under" bit implies much more than a person simply being under their jurisdiction by default - to me its there to mean competing in something (ie a comp) which is under the jurisdiction of the NGB.  

But yes, I think we know why we probably wont agree.


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## yandabrown (Mar 14, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Yes, exactly, and that's a different point. Of course, it's unworkable, which is why there is no testing and registration because the cost and admin would be huge.

The fact the rule may not be easy to prove, or enforce doesn't remove the existence of the rule.

However, you can't remove the rule, because although most participants will get nowhere near the elite level, without the rule you are saying elite athletes can dope, until they reach the elite level. You could pull a promising youngster out of the representative teams and competitions and drug them up into the bionic man, and then release them back into sanctioned competitions. This is likely less useful for golf than other sports, but the rules are blanket rather than sport specific.
		
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Actually there are some sport specific ones. Golf specifies Beta Blockers which I would hazard a guess are taken by many thousands of golfers for good reason (along with advice from the Doctor to get more gentle exercise like golf). Wada page: https://www.wada-ama.org/en/content/what-is-prohibited/prohibited-in-particular-sports indicated that relates to the International Golf Federation of which England Golf, Golf Wales, Scottish Golf Limited and the R&A (amongst many more) are all members. Having been playing at a level of sport in the past where testing was a possibility, I recall many common things other than lemsip which were out of the question, particularly hayfever remedies (without which makes golf impossible for some during the summer).


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## Dibby (Mar 14, 2019)

yandabrown said:



			Actually there are some sport specific ones. Golf specifies Beta Blockers which I would hazard a guess are taken by many thousands of golfers for good reason (along with advice from the Doctor to get more gentle exercise like golf). Wada page: https://www.wada-ama.org/en/content/what-is-prohibited/prohibited-in-particular-sports indicated that relates to the International Golf Federation of which England Golf, Golf Wales, Scottish Golf Limited and the R&A (amongst many more) are all members. Having been playing at a level of sport in the past where testing was a possibility, I recall many common things other than lemsip which were out of the question, particularly hayfever remedies (without which makes golf impossible for some during the summer).
		
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Yes, I was aware, but I didn't want to go too far off track, as for the purposes of golf it is blanket in terms of who is covered by anti-doping. I don't miss not having to check everything on Global DRO!



backwoodsman said:



			Ok, I said I'd not debate  further - and I think we'll still disagree, but one final go. (And crikey, it is a lot harder to convey in writing what one is thinking ...)

Starting with..
_"Any Person who competes at any level in the sport under the jurisdiction of the NGB"_

So, we agree that are talking about golf, and that the "at any level" bit applies, so we can drop the middle bit out. Which leaves us
_"Any Person who competes under the jurisdiction of the NGB"_

If it was merely the athlete who was under jurisdiction of the NGB, the "who competes" words would be superfluous to the statement.

And as we know, in all things "rules-like", wording tends to be precise - and every word tends to be there for a reason.  So, to me, the "who competes... under" bit implies much more than a person simply being under their jurisdiction by default - to me its there to mean competing in something (ie a comp) which is under the jurisdiction of the NGB.

But yes, I think we know why we probably wont agree.
		
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I know I said I would leave it, but one last point, you cannot remove parts of the sentence in the way you do to extrapolate a meaning. The sentence must comprise of it's whole to extract the true meaning.

_"Any Person who competes" 
"competes at any level"_

Do you see the meaning of these are different, even though they come from the same sentence?

Everyone is free to interpret this however they like, but I will feel comfortable that I am not too far wrong sticking with what England golf directly say in their guidance, which at the present time is - "If you are a member of England Golf then the anti-doping rules apply to you, regardless of what level you participate at "


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## Tashyboy (Mar 14, 2019)

There's an old saying " common sense Ain't that common after all". Having read some of the Rammel on here. Never had a truer word/ saying been spoken.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 14, 2019)

So what about tablets for blood pressure, cholestoral, heart conditions, diabetes to name just a few. Many of us on here, myself included take a plethora of medication daily and I for one second cannot see me getting banned from the club championship or any other event as a result. If you take it to the logical conclusion of *having* to comply with EGU and drug rulings, there would be minimal participants each week and clubs closing quicker than local pubs


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So what about tablets for blood pressure, cholestoral, heart conditions, diabetes to name just a few. Many of us on here, myself included take a plethora of medication daily and I for one second cannot see me getting banned from the club championship or any other event as a result. If you take it to the logical conclusion of *having* to comply with EGU and drug rulings, there would be minimal participants each week and clubs closing quicker than local pubs
		
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Sorry homer your a cheat .. hand in your clubs, and tour membership and report to the snooker room for debrief


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry homer your a cheat .. hand in your clubs, and tour membership and report to the snooker room for debrief
		
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I'll form a queue with the majority of other club golfers. Best get in front of the seniors and Frag.


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## richart (Mar 14, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So what about tablets for blood pressure, cholestoral, heart conditions, diabetes to name just a few. Many of us on here, myself included take a plethora of medication daily and I for one second cannot see me getting banned from the club championship or any other event as a result. If you take it to the logical conclusion of *having* to comply with EGU and drug rulings, there would be minimal participants each week and clubs closing quicker than local pubs
		
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At least you can not be accused of taking performance enhancing drugs.

I would add a smiley but for some reason I can not access on iPad. Gloomy face.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I'll form a clue with the majority of other club golfers. Best get in front of the seniors and Frag.
		
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Maybe we can start a break away golf Union that isnâ€™t bound by the everyoneâ€™s a cheat rule


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## Tashyboy (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe we can start a break away golf Union that isnâ€™t bound by the everyoneâ€™s a cheat rule
		
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Al be the treasurer, am good wi money. ðŸ˜ðŸ˜˜


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## woofers (Mar 14, 2019)

Hey Dibby, next time you feel the need to digress (post no 153), how about starting a new dedicated thread?
That way we wouldnâ€™t have to wade through 80 posts that have eff all to do with the original topic.
Just a thought.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

woofers said:



			Hey Dibby, next time you feel the need to digress (post no 153), how about starting a new dedicated thread?
That way we wouldnâ€™t have to wade through 80 posts that have eff all to do with the original topic.
Just a thought.
		
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Iâ€™d offer some treatment to dibby for that 3rd degree burn you just served him.. however I wouldnâ€™t want him to be breaking the rules of being a club member ðŸ¤¨


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 14, 2019)

woofers said:



			Hey Dibby, next time you feel the need to digress (post no 153), how about starting a new dedicated thread?
That way we wouldnâ€™t have to wade through 80 posts that have eff all to do with the original topic.
Just a thought.
		
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As much as Dibby may have started the derailment of this, there are other than him that are guilty for it to have gone this far, including myself. Sorry about that.


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## Dibby (Mar 15, 2019)

Lilyhawk said:



			As much as Dibby may have started the derailment of this, there are other than him that are guilty for it to have gone this far, including myself. Sorry about that.
		
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Why be sorry?

Although we may disagree, I thought (pointless repeated jibes from some aside) that it was an interesting conversation, and is related to the original topic about rules relating to medical requirements for golf. If others don't want to read about it, they can skip it, it clearly was a somewhat engaging topic, as it got so many responses.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 15, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Why be sorry?

Although we may disagree, I thought (pointless repeated jibes from some aside) that it was an interesting conversation, and is related to the original topic about rules relating to medical requirements for golf. If others don't want to read about it, they can skip it, it clearly was a somewhat engaging topic, as it got so many responses.
		
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Cause Iâ€™m in agreement that this topic has nothing to do with the original topic. But thatâ€™s not another debate cause youâ€™ve already stated you do believe itâ€™s related.
That itâ€™s an engaging topic has nothing to do with it.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 15, 2019)

To be fair, I too have been part of the derailment. 

But l think both elements have probably run their course. We should leave this one to its original purpose if anyone has more to say on that, and move the side topic to a new thread. But personally, I'll not be bothering.


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## sunshine (Mar 15, 2019)

Dibby said:



			Not true at all.



The bolding is mine for emphasis.

Source - England Golf

Click to expand...


Ah poor Dibby, looks like you've got the wrong end of the stick and been crucified on here. Some of the comments on here a bit harsh, but dusckster provided the right info on the scope of the rules. I guess that's what happens when you quote misleading facts out of context.


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## sunshine (Mar 15, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Very few club golfers' driver swingspeed is 100 mph or above despite the BS and, in any event,  those 40 swings are spread out over approx 4 hours  with  pronounced gaps (recovery periods) between them.

To even reference Usain Bolt in the discussion is bizarre to say the least.
		
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Horsepower/ watts are units of power. The power output of a swing lasting one second is not relevant to sprinting 100 metres over ten seconds. You are confusing power and energy consumption so your "fact" is pointless.  The debate about buggies related to fatigue. 

Ah poor Dibby, looks like you've got the wrong end of the stick. I guess that's what happens when you quote misleading facts out of context. I have a feeling I've heard that before somewhere?


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## Dibby (Mar 16, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Ah poor Dibby, looks like you've got the wrong end of the stick and been crucified on here. Some of the comments on here a bit harsh, but dusckster provided the right info on the scope of the rules. I guess that's what happens when you quote misleading facts out of context.
		
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sunshine said:



			Horsepower/ watts are units of power. The power output of a swing lasting one second is not relevant to sprinting 100 metres over ten seconds. You are confusing power and energy consumption so your "fact" is pointless.  The debate about buggies related to fatigue.

Ah poor Dibby, looks like you've got the wrong end of the stick. I guess that's what happens when you quote misleading facts out of context. I have a feeling I've heard that before somewhere?
		
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Actually, it is you who has got the wrong end of the stick on both counts. If you read the full thread, you'll notice:

The post by Duckster referenced the England Golf 2015 anti-doping rules, which were replaced in 2016 by guidance which said that England golf is adopting the UKADA 2015 rules and any future updates. From this it came down to how you interpret those rules, you are welcome to do this as you please, but England golf provided their own interpretation. Basically, if you think I am wrong, you also think England golf are wrong, which is entirely possible, but I think it's reasonable to assume England Golf have a better idea of the intent and scope of their own rules than some random forum posters.

I never compared the golf swing to 100m of sprinting, I compared the power output used in the event of the 100m sprint, but referenced the shorter duration, but higher frequency of the golf swing. You'll notice I actually reference the sprint start and a short distance of somewhere between 5-10m.  Power and energy are related. You stated a Watt is a unit of power, this is correct. What is a Watt-Second a measure of? I'll give you a clue, on your energy bills they use a similar unit the Kilowatt-Hour.

Happy to discuss further, as it's interesting to see other views, but only if you are disagreeing with what I actually said. I am happy to be proven wrong and learn something new, but misquoting me, and then destroying the misquote doesn't do that.


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## sunshine (Mar 16, 2019)

So the power of a 100mph driver swing is 2hp? At what point? Impact? Because it won't be during the backswing or the transition, maybe just the bottom half of the downswing. Less than half a second. On a par 72 course we are talking 36 full shots (let's ignore the fact that wedges and half or 3/4 swings will require significantly less effort) so maybe 15 seconds of max output. Spread out over four hours that is absolutely nothing. 
And if you claim sprinting is 3hp max power then that requires way more energy than a 2hp driver swing, 50% more in fact. That's a big gap!

Don't get me started on the doping question. You've made quite a few assumptions in your interpretations, others have already said plenty!


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## Dibby (Mar 17, 2019)

sunshine said:



			So the power of a 100mph driver swing is 2hp? At what point? Impact? Because it won't be during the backswing or the transition, maybe just the bottom half of the downswing. Less than half a second. On a par 72 course we are talking 36 full shots (let's ignore the fact that wedges and half or 3/4 swings will require significantly less effort) so maybe 15 seconds of max output. Spread out over four hours that is absolutely nothing.
And if you claim sprinting is 3hp max power then that requires way more energy than a 2hp driver swing, 50% more in fact. That's a big gap!

Don't get me started on the doping question. You've made quite a few assumptions in your interpretations, others have already said plenty!
		
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That's an elite sprinter, against a non-elite golf swing. A non-elite sprinter would be a lower output, but the point is it's still that person max effort.  My real point is that the golf swing takes a lot of effort to execute, being fresher and having more when you do it will be an advantage. This is without even considering all the other impacts dehydration, calories burned from walking etc.. 
Remember the discussion wasn't about the exact power and energy usage of the golf swing, just that it wasn't a small effort and is impacted by fatigue.  If you disagree, then fair enough, but it's hardly a ridiculous claim, and whilst I may not have made a conclusive argument, no one has made a conclusive counter-argument beyond "I don't feel tired when I play golf". What humans feel and what is actually happening rarely matches. 

The doping question is clear cut. See the below screenshot form the England Golf guidance. Not my interpretation, England Golfs own words. Read the last line of their guidance.  

Please explain what assumptions I have made? I am pretty sure I am the only person who has not made assumptions about this statement, as I am taking it literally.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2019)

Dibby said:



			That's an elite sprinter, against a non-elite golf swing. A non-elite sprinter would be a lower output, but the point is it's still that person max effort.  My real point is that the golf swing takes a lot of effort to execute, being fresher and having more when you do it will be an advantage. This is without even considering all the other impacts dehydration, calories burned from walking etc..
Remember the discussion wasn't about the exact power and energy usage of the golf swing, just that it wasn't a small effort and is impacted by fatigue.  If you disagree, then fair enough, but it's hardly a ridiculous claim, and whilst I may not have made a conclusive argument, no one has made a conclusive counter-argument beyond "I don't feel tired when I play golf". What humans feel and what is actually happening rarely matches.

The doping question is clear cut. See the below screenshot form the England Golf guidance. Not my interpretation, England Golfs own words. Read the last line of their guidance. 

Please explain what assumptions I have made? I am pretty sure I am the only person who has not made assumptions about this statement, as I am taking it literally.

View attachment 26834

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So basically a huge majority of club golfers are drug cheats as they take medicines for all sorts of illnesses and complaints. I am pretty sure not all of these will comply with the list of approved drugs. What do you suggest. We all stop playing unless you pass a drugs test on the first tee. I cannot believe for one moment the EGU aren't aware of this situation but obviously we all participate each weekend so seemingly they choose to ignore their own edict


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## sunshine (Mar 17, 2019)

Ok, I'm going to summarise my opinion (no scientific basis): fatigue in golf is almost entirely due to walking the course and dehydration etc. The impact of swinging a club is minimal. And I agree that fatigue contributes to poor execution of the golf swing.


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## sunshine (Mar 17, 2019)

England golf organises competitions, such as the Brabazon Trophy, and the the anti-doping rules must apply in these comps. The assumption is that club competitions like the monthly medal fall under the governance of England golf.


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## woofers (Mar 17, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Oh look

Another thread that has "CLOSE ME " written all over it..........................
		
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PhilTheFragger said:



			May I refer current posters to post number 206 above.................
		
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Oh please, please, find someone who can......

Just look at what could have been prevented......


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## Tashyboy (Mar 17, 2019)

Not wanting to start a riot. But can you lot that are derailing this topic bugger off. Am waiting to see how me main man is going on re his comp and all am reading about is wattage, blah blah blah. Start another thread if you must on drugs wattage odd socks etc.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 17, 2019)

I think we have an English version of Cabby


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