# Your thoughts. Seriously.....



## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

Driving home from work a couple of weeks ago, my windscreen started to mist up. I took my eyes off the road for a second or so to adjust the ventilation on my car, and when I looked up the traffic in front had stopped suddenly.  I hit the brakes as hard as I could but went into the back of the car in front.
Turned out it was another salesman from our Hyundai dealership on his way home too. 
Not massive damage but both cars have ended up in the bodyshop requiring body repairs.
I have never had an accident before in a company car and have full NCB on both my private car and motorbike insurance. I completed an accident claim form and gave a full written statement where I accepted responsibility. I was driving sensibly, within the speed  limits and wasnâ€™t (for want of another expression) pratting around.
Was called into a disciplinary meeting this morning and despite having a clean slate have been given a final written warning which also came with the warning that any further breaches of company policy or procedures would see me dismissed without notice.

I have 5 days in which to appeal.

Harsh?


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## DelB (Dec 5, 2011)

VERY harsh! How can they give you a final warning when you have had a clean slate up till now? What does the disciplinary procedure on your contract say?


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## stevie_r (Dec 5, 2011)

don't think so mate to be honest, you took your eyes off the road, I know we all do it at times (probably too often) but the consequences of doing so have now been made particularly apparent too you.

Your companies disciplinary and grievance policy should list which offences it considers to be misconduct, gross misconduct etc and the maximum sanctions they can impose.


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## coolhand (Dec 5, 2011)

Depends on precendence.

It might be standard company policy that anyone who has an accident in a company car get treated the same.

If not then it is harsh and you should appeal.


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## NWJocko (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy said:




Driving home from work a couple of weeks ago, my windscreenstarted to mist up. I took my eyes off the road for a second or so to adjustthe ventilation on my car, and when I looked up the traffic in front hadstopped suddenly.  I hit the brakes ashard as I could but went into the back of the car in front.
Turned out it was another salesman from our Hyundai dealership on his way hometoo. 
Not massive damage but both cars have ended up in the bodyshop requiring bodyrepairs.
I have never had an accident before in a company car and have full NCB on bothmy private car and motorbike insurance. I completed an accident claim form andgave a full written statement where I accepted responsibility. I was drivingsensibly, within the speed  limits andwasnâ€™t (for want of another expression) pratting around.
Was called into a disciplinary meeting this morning and despite having a cleanslate have been given a final written warning which also came with the warningthat any further breaches of company policy or procedures would see medismissed without notice.

I have 5 days in which to appeal.

Harsh?

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You say "any further breaches of company policy".

Is it company policy not to have an accident!?  Seems very harsh to me.

What was the justification they gave for the final warning?  I assume the company have fairly well defined HR policies and procedures so they must provide you with the reason that they have arrived at their decision....


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## Jaymosafehands (Dec 5, 2011)

ouch.

Sounds harsh to me. 1st warning goes straight to final written - don't like the sound of that, I'd say appeal, they might reduce it down to verbal?


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2011)

I would ask to see a company hand book to see where you stand.

The handbook should give you an insight into the companies disiplinary procedure and may give you further options.

As an example. The company I work for operates a 3 strike policy.

1st - Verbal warning
2nd - Written warning
3rd - Final Written warning

Anything after and your on your way to the job centre.

Going straight to a final written seems very harsh indeed!


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## DelB (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy, might be worth a call to Citizens Advice to see what they reckon to it, subject of course to the aforementioned checking to see what is says about disciplinary procedure on your contract.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

I know that our company disciplinary structure is like most others. Verbal, written, final. I am finding it hard to believe that having an accident like this deserves a final. If I had been racing in the car, and witnesses had come forward to report it, I could understand it. But for having what is one of the most "common" accidents on the road???? And a first time too???


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## bladeplayer (Dec 5, 2011)

That sounds a load of ball cocks to me mate , i work in the car trade i have never ever heard of an accident been a breach of company policy , its an accident , ok if they decide you were neglegent there has to be a diciplin policy for the whole company, from any i have heard of it has to be verbal warning , then written warning , etc .. i would ask for a copy of the company policy & procedure manual highlighting the part you have broken so you can proprly prepare your appeal . they are obliged to give you a copy . actualy they are obliged to have a hard copy for inspection for staff to inspect in the event of a problem ,you should  start there, also is there a time limit on the warning ? there should be .


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## wull (Dec 5, 2011)

how much notice did they give you for your disciplinary hearing?did they give you written confirmation that there would be a hearing and that you were entitled to have someone accompany you,and or appear on your behalf?

this is standard practise and mandatory and is the correct precedure for employers to take.


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## fundy (Dec 5, 2011)

I would ask for a written explanation, with evidence of company policy, as to why one accident from someone with a clean slate, translates to a final written warning, and at the same time would let them know I intend to appeal and will be fighting the warning (and severity of it) as hard as possible.

Do you have a legal aid number at work or maybe through your bank account that you can get specialist advice, if so be worth touching base with them.


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## Tommo21 (Dec 5, 2011)

Iâ€™ve been involved in management for 35 odd years and this takes the biscuit. Who was driving the other car the bosses bit on the side, male or female. 

Naa, something far wrong unless you are a thorn in their side, like on this forum.

Just keeping it light, you know.


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2011)

wull said:



			how much notice did they give you for your disciplinary hearing?did they give you written confirmation that there would be a hearing and that you were entitled to have someone accompany you,and or appear on your behalf?

this is standard practise and mandatory and is the correct precedure for employers to take.
		
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Agree with this.. I would ask to see a copy of the companies disciplinary policy and procedures. I would then make sure the company went through the correct procedures. Any failure would render the disciplinary null and void. I would also consider this thread. If someone from your company sees it they may take a dim view of it.
Oh, and appeal it straight away... I doubt very much that it will stand  up to scrutiny...


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## Mattyboy (Dec 5, 2011)

Sounds to me like a company that has told management to cut staff (without the cost of redundancy)!

A well known company I used to work for did this: At the end of a team meeting the manager would casually say 'mind what you do on the internet'. Then three got dismissed, without a personal warning (written or otherwise) what so ever. 

Smiffy, I have a mate who specialises in employment law (who I would think is rather useful) if needs be. Plays off about 10 as well (think he has too much time on his hands!).


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## USER1999 (Dec 5, 2011)

Is this to do with this dealership, or is it to do with the company you used (still?) to work for, and your previous record with your last manager, sitting in a file at head office?

There has to be more to it than a simple rta?


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

I took a witness in with me. Guy from the parts department who had an accident in a company car himself last Summer.
He didn't get a written warning, let alone a final written warning.


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2011)

but what procedure did they follow to instigate the disciplinary? Did they write to you informing you of the meeting? Did they hold an investigation or investigatory meeting? Did they inform you of their decision in writing? Did they give you the reasons for the severity of the punishment..Appeal, and do it politely, with reasons for the appeal.. Highlight your previous good service and also the lack of precedent.. Be polite at all times..


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2011)

check out this link.. it should give you all the info necessary to appeal...
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/Disciplinaryprocedures/DG_10028111


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

The accident happened just over two weeks ago. I got a letter handed to me last Thursday to say that I was being called into a disciplinary meeting today and that I could have a "witness" with me to hear what was said. No investigation into the accident has been carried out because I held my hands up and admitted that it was my fault. I was given the chance to add any more facts to my statement this morning, I had nothing to add. The statement said it all and as it happened.
I was then told immediately of the boss's decision to give me the final warning and this was confirmed in a letter an hour later.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			I took a witness in with me. Guy from the parts department who had an accident in a company car himself last Summer.
He didn't get a written warning, let alone a final written warning.
		
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Surely that sets some sort of precedent then?? It sounds VERY harsh to me and I assume they know they're within their rights to go straight to written warning? Perhaps the staff handbook states something along the lines of "negligent damage to company property etc" being gross misconduct? Even if that were the case then an appeal would still be justified as accidents do happen and you weren't speeding or on the phone or anything that would really constitute negligence...


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## bigslice (Dec 5, 2011)

have you been there less than a year? i was given a verbal warning (although at the time they didnt say it was) then a week later sacked because of said verbal warning!!! i checked the company handbook and they were so wrong. because of family stuff ive moved on and forgot about it. thats why i can reply to this at this time of day!!! ps i havent signed on at the jobcentre


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## MadAdey (Dec 5, 2011)

Sounds very harsh Smiffy. Surely if you have had a perfect work record with this company then having an accident should not affect your position. I am not legally trained so would not even start trying to give you advice on your legal position. But I would have a bloody good read of the company procedures and if still in doubt speak to a solicitor. There are always one that will give a free legal consultation, then you will have an idea of where you stand. Good luck mate I hope you get it sorted out in your best interests.


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## coolhand (Dec 5, 2011)

Previous precendent means that unless they can prove this situation is significantly different they don't have a leg to stand on.


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## MadAdey (Dec 5, 2011)

coolhand said:



			Previous precendent means that unless they can prove this situation is significantly different they don't have a leg to stand on.
		
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The only thing is if they have changed company policy since then. They would not do that without consulting their legal advisors first to make sure they are not contravening employment laws.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			Is this to do with this dealership, or is it to do with the company you used (still?) to work for, and your previous record with your last manager, sitting in a file at head office?

There has to be more to it than a simple rta?
		
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This is to do with this dealership Murph. I transferred to here early in May and have been getting on great here. Good sales figures and a good working relationship with everybody.
It's the same company, just a different branch. I have no warnings (written or verbal) sitting on my files anywhere, only a history of "bad blood" with another manager at the branch I used to work at.
That should have no relevance to the severity of punishment for this accident.


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## richart (Dec 5, 2011)

Rob I will have a word with Jeremy this afternoon, and get him to speak with his employment contract solicitor. Can't believe you got a final written warning for a genuine accident that happens all the time. Rich


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## USER1999 (Dec 5, 2011)

Makes no sense unless they are just looking to off load some one to reduce the head count.


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2011)

I dont know much about employment law but there 2 things here which may be relevent.

1. The company have sent you on several training courses recently which they will have paid for. Now, if they were planning on getting rid of you then they wouldn't have wasted that money.

2. The guy Smiffy hit is talking about claiming for injuries and whiplash, despite admitting he was fine at the time.
I just wonder if the company is covering itself in some way against the threat of being sued by "severly punishing" Smiffy.?


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2011)

NWJocko said:



			You say "any further breaches of company policy".

Is it company policy not to have an accident!? Seems very harsh to me.
		
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I think we pretty much know that you could appeal and/or screw them for this.... it's just up to you to decide if you want to or not (rock the boat.. etc etc).

Like I said before, get your head in the paper and get out of that lousy company.... and screw 'em over on the way out the door!


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## CallawayKid (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy, have a chat with the company HR manager to clarify the position and if procedures were followed. The HR manager should remain neutral, again I say should. Ask them as many questions as possible and to state which part of the company handbook it all relates to.
It would be like a warning shot across the bow as the HR manager will speak to the bosses and advise them that a final written will be too much and may get it reduced to a verbal.

All else fails, back up and say it wasn't your fault it was the ergonomics of the car and that they should have electric heating windscreens like the Fords...might as well go out with a blast!!! 

CK


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## Aztecs27 (Dec 5, 2011)

If you need a lawyer. I may be able to help - let me know. (Not me, BTW! Obviously! )


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## Slab (Dec 5, 2011)

It also reads as if the outcome was predetermined, which is a bit wierd in a disciplinary


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## Shaunmg (Dec 5, 2011)

This smacks of hidden agenda. As an employer myself I know the difficulties in getting rid of someone. I know of cases where employers deliberately build up a case against an employee to work them out. I have 3 vans and every one of them has been bumped, all our drivers faults. Never even considered discipline 

To put your situation it in football terms; it doesnâ€™t warrant a sending off, but two yellow cards get the result. Follow the advice and check procedures have been carried out correctly and appeal.

Iâ€™m sure Iâ€™ve got it completely wrong, but maybe, just maybe they need to shed Labour and intend to build up a case. Itâ€™s the next slight mistake that gives you the red. Donâ€™t want to frighten you but watch your back


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## Oddsocks (Dec 5, 2011)

i think bobs point is most valid. the the other party is looking to claim for whiplash from you, as the insurer your company is going to get the wack of it when their policy increases next year, id bet y bottom dollar that the firm has issued a final warning pending the outcome of the guy claiming whiplash to protect their own backsides.,

Its seems that alot of help is available through this forum, may be worth taking it, such as a round of golf with matty's mate


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2011)

yeah, it does appear that theyve done it to appease the insurance company.. They still have to follow the law though, and they havent (according to the OP). Appeal quietly and politely...


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2011)

I dont see any relevance to the insurance company.

Smiffy, you stated bad blood with another manager and that you were told immediately after reading your statement that the Bosses decision was a final written warning, was the boss present?

There is certainly evidence of a hidden agenda here and possibly a pre-determined decision.

Smiffy, call this number NOW, extremely helpful.
The Acas Helpline is the place to go for both employers and employees who are involved in an employment dispute or are seeking information on employment rights and rules. The Helpline provides clear, confidential, independent and impartial advice to assist the caller in resolving issues in the workplace.*Call the Helpline on 08457 47 47 47.*​


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

DarthVega said:



			Smiffy, you stated bad blood with another manager and that you were told immediately after reading your statement that the Bosses decision was a final written warning, was the boss present?
		
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No he wasn't mate. He works at a completely different branch.
I am definitely going to appeal against it.
As the situation stands, I will be terrified to attempt to drive into work should we get snow over the next couple of months because if I happen to have a bump in my car I am out of work!!
Even Lewis Hamilton doesn't have to drive under that sort of pressure


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			No he wasn't mate. He works at a completely different branch.
I am definitely going to appeal against it.
		
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Looks like a predetermined decision, I think (without knowing all the facts etc) there could be a very strong case for constructive dismissal, Smiffy PLEASE call ACAS, they are extremely helpful and knowledgable, you need someone batting on your side apart from all the forum supporters.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

DarthVega said:



			Looks like a predetermined decision, I think (without knowing all the facts etc) there could be a very strong case for constructive dismissal, Smiffy PLEASE call ACAS, they are extremely helpful and knowledgable, you need someone batting on your side apart from all the forum supporters.
		
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Cheers mate. I did contact ACAS last week when I first received the letter calling me to a disciplinary. They suggested waiting to see the outcome of the meeting and then ringing them again. Their helpline is open until 8.00pm so I will give them another call when I get home this evening.


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## User20205 (Dec 5, 2011)

not much to add really apart from to say this is nonsense. You have a car provided though work, the car is insured against accidents. As long as the car wasn't damaged through misuse where is the problem? 

 I have driven company cars for 15 years and never heard of anything like this before. Check through your contract/company handbook.

 Unless it is clearly written down that an accident is misconduct they can't discipline you for it. They can't make it up as they go along !


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2011)

therod said:



			Unless it is clearly written down that an accident is misconduct they can't discipline you for it. They can't make it up as they go along !
		
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Amen.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Amen.
		
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I'll fill you in with some of their "technical jargon" when I get home


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## Scouser (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy I had heard you were a bad driver but I though that was golf.

On a serious note check to see if you have free legal advice with any one...eg banks or something.  You may be able to get free legal advice on where you stand!!

Good Luck


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## Scouser (Dec 5, 2011)

JUst to add i think even one of the break down companies gave free legal advice at one point


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

Well I have just come off the phone from the ACAS helpline, and it seems that the company were within their rights to put me on a final written warning because they have suffered a financial loss.
It has been suggested that I write a letter of appeal disagreeing with the severity of the warning whilst also pointing out that in the past there have been inconsistent punishments given out for similar accidents, and that I have been treated unfavourably.


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## Scouser (Dec 5, 2011)

Can you not offer to cover the cost?


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

Scouser said:



			Can you not offer to cover the cost?
		
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Errrr...damage to my car was about Â£1,700.00. I don't know the extent of the damage to the other vehicle, but I would guess it's slightly higher. I couldn't afford to.


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## Scouser (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			Errrr...damage to my car was about Â£1,700.00. I don't know the extent of the damage to the other vehicle, but I would guess it's slightly higher. I couldn't afford to.
		
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Dont know what to say with out a load of sear words....thats a shocker good luck with the appeal


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## welshjim22 (Dec 5, 2011)

As a uniod rep at my place of work i wouldn't mind this case.  See's unfair to go straight to final warning.  Sadly in an age where sacking is cheapest form of staff reduction this sort of rubbish happens alot.  Is driving a works car mandatory for your work if not i know in my work we would all refuse to drive until specific guidance was issued for just this scenario.  As for why you took your eyes off the road seems reasonable that we all will from time to time otherwise there would not be so many buttons but proving why you did instead of just not paying attention could be hard to prove.


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## AuburnWarrior (Dec 5, 2011)

Rob, I'm no employment expert but I'll add my tuppence worth.....

Surely you were insured??  Surely the insurance will kick in and pay for any damage??  You could offer to pay the excess??

From an employer's point of view, as long as you weren't drunk, under the influence of narcotics or driving recklessly then surely it's just a road traffic accident that's dealt with in the same way as any other RTA that occurs in this country???

I will add that I've been the victim of a 'gross misconduct' sacking and the whole thing was an absolute farce!  The company wanted me out (for whatever reason) and came up with all manner of wibble to get me out.  You may be in the same boat, my friend.

I wish you all the best, really I do.  In these times of financial hardship companies will do all they can to trim the workforce.


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2011)

I see no financial loss if the insurance covers it which they will.

I would agree with ACAS if their was president, however, there is in fact president of an employee doing the same and not recieving the same consequence. Punishments have to be seen to be fair and equitable otherwise it can be deemed as harassment or victimisation in my non expert but common sense view.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2011)

The whole situation stinks especially as you have use of the company car all the time and could literally have another prang at any time. I'd be tempted to buy a Â£500 runaround and tell them to stuff the car.



..... and then go find yourself another job.


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

JustOne said:



			The whole situation stinks especially as you have use of the company car all the time and could literally have another prang at any time. I'd be tempted to buy a Â£500 runaround and tell them to stuff the car.
..... and then go find yourself another job.
		
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James. It really isn't that easy to "find another job".
I'm 56 in January. Other firms don't want 56 year old salesmen. I cannot afford to go and work in Tesco or Payless DIY, if I could I would have got out of this line of work years ago.
Take my word for it. Have you been down the JobCentre lately or looked in the local papers?
There is feck all about.


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## Scouser (Dec 5, 2011)

Do you work for a large company or a small showroom can you go to a regional manager?


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## Smiffy (Dec 5, 2011)

Scouser said:



			Do you work for a large company or a small showroom can you go to a regional manager?
		
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I work for a five dealership group in Hastings. Not massive but not too small. No regional manager to go to!


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## johnboywalton (Dec 5, 2011)

I worked for a Large Main Dealer for ten years, 5 as a Sales Manager, I never came across a "1st accident" as a final warning, the guys had to pay the excess and then it was all forgotten, unfortunately it does sound as there may be a hidden agenda here!
 I think you need to speak to HR first and then take it from there, although be a little careful as I can not agree that all HR departments are impartial.
 Anyway good luck with it mate!


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## Tommo21 (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy have you got a copy of your company disciplinary procedure. My company, when anyone is driving a company car the excess is much higher and the driver needs to pay that if they have a smash. Can you offer to pay the excess? 

As before, all this seems a little harshâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦A LITTLE HARSH.


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## FaldosJumper (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy nothing to add other than to say good luck and hopefully a lesser charge, if any will be the result. 

We're going through a staffing reduction exercise at work at the moment and have to say this kind of stress with the current employment market and time of year is no good for anyone.

Again, best of luck!


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## vig (Dec 5, 2011)

Rob

Did they charge you with gross misconduct?  If you admitted it and it was looked on as driving without due care and attention then they could deem it as such.  In which case they could have dismissed.

I would appeal but carefully put together an appeal with all points for consideration.
Do not get arsey, 
When I do conduct cases, each are taken on their own merit so presedence wouldn't necessarily come into it unless there has been previous identical scenarios where a lesser penalty has been given.  If this is the case then quote this in any appeal.

As has been said previously, if the third party is seeking compo, there may have been "advice" given to the interviewing manager to cover the company.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 5, 2011)

Smiffy

First of all sorry to hear it has gotten to this stage. Having read the points here and given that you have evidence of a driver doing the same thing without similar action being taken there does seem a case for appeal and potentially for victimisation. I can understand the ACAS angle as there is a financial liability but I assume that was the case when your colleague had his accident too.

I think you need to get it in writing, maybe take some legal advice from that on offer here and see how the land lies after that. I know you've been made up since you got the millstone of your former boss off your case and its a shame one moment has but such a downer on things. I know how hard it is to win from HID's experience when she left her jobat Sand Martins over an incident that was shall we say "incorrectly handled" and we are still in legal negotiations


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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2011)

My regular playing partner got an instant dismissal 8 months ago, appealed and lost and went for a tribunal. The company made a much lower offer than his claim and he had no choice to take it as that time out of work left him skint. He finally got a job last week. The feeling was that it was cheaper to sack him and pay the agreed compensation than pay notice and redundancy money

 The fact is that you still have a job at a really bad time and, although even as a company owner, it is clear to me that you have been harshly treated, I would advise you not to act hastily. Just because you don't go off on one with the company, doesn't mean that you accept the warning willingly, and anyway, they sound unlikey to rescind it, but it has to be expunged from the record at some stage in the future. I would think seriously about the consequenses of disputing it as you may well fall out with the new boss and then it's downhill all the way

I wish you luck Rob


Chris


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## thecraw (Dec 5, 2011)

So, back to the original accident when "you took your eyes off the road for a second".


Did she have a nice ass or pert boobies???


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## JustOne (Dec 6, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			James. It really isn't that easy to "find another job".
I'm 56 in January. Other firms don't want 56 year old salesmen. I cannot afford to go and work in Tesco or Payless DIY, if I could I would have got out of this line of work years ago.
Take my word for it. Have you been down the JobCentre lately or looked in the local papers?
There is feck all about.
		
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I know mate, I know it's hard but I feel terrible for the situation you are in, as mentioned before it's a right shame seeing as you seemed to be pretty pleased with your new environment.

Fancy selling double glazing for 50K? You could do worse than email this company and asking if they have any space for a well experienced 56 yr old super gifted salesman looking to get some job satisfaction selling a top quality product that is respected across the nation.... http://www.jobstoday.co.uk/job/field-sales-executive-938630465?src=search


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## jammag (Dec 6, 2011)

The thing is with insurance some companies will choose to self insure which means they will pay any damage to there own vehicles so this is where the company loss could be seen as.

Now if I was you it could be worth appealing and playing stupid as such to buy yourself more time. Something as silly as well I took the rap at the time because he was a good friend. But now I dont remember seeing any brake lights were they tested? Insurance claims can sometimes take up to a year to sort themselves out especially if it goes with whiplash injury. It may not look the best personally but playing hardball with them could worry them a bit. Try find out as many people who have had accidents within your company see what happened with them.


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## upsidedown (Dec 6, 2011)

Not a lot to add Smiffy except to wish you all the best. Does sound outrageously harsh and smacks of hidden agendas


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## Smiffy (Dec 6, 2011)

vig said:



			Rob
Did they charge you with gross misconduct?  If you admitted it and it was looked on as driving without due care and attention then they could deem it as such.  In which case they could have dismissed.
		
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Yes, "gross misconduct" was mentioned Dave. Bit harsh in my book. As I say, if I had been spotted racing at 90mph in my company car, or been reported for driving like a loon, I could have understood it. Had that been the case then I wouldn't really complain had I been goonered. A "final written warning" would have felt like I had got off lightly.
Thanks for all your suggestions and comments guys. 
I've got until the end of the week to tender my appeal. I'm not going to go into it like a bull in a china shop.
I'll see what else I can find out over the next few days with regard to other accidents that have happened and what warnings, if any, were given out.
Meanwhile, I will be driving even more sedately than before.....


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 6, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			t.
Meanwhile, I will be driving even more sedately than before.....
		
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Does this equate to topping the ball 25 yards off the tee?

Feel for you mate, sounds like you have been stitched up like a kipper

Fragger


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## G1BB0 (Dec 6, 2011)

a couple of years back a bloke at work had his van nicked while working on a job, he had reported the battery being goosed and had to leave the engine running to use his hazzards/warning beacon (BT engineer), someone jumped in and drove off. van was recovered but tools nicked. 35 years service not even a blemish and he got a final written warning, spoke to union about appeal and got told to accept it as wouldnt get any better. Swallow it and move forwards


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## connor (Dec 6, 2011)

all ill say is im glad im in the union.

GMB always back us to the hills against our employer, even over stupid things like someone was caught smoking in there van in the plant and transport depot.  Person doing the disciplinary had 1 letter of the number plate wrong union got it thrown out and the case dropped and the employee who everyone knew was guilty got given an apology haha


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## Yerman (Dec 6, 2011)

Nil illigitimis carburundum ( Don't let the B#rst##ds grind you down).


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2011)

Yerman said:



			Nil illigitimis carburundum ( Don't let the B#rst##ds grind you down). 

Click to expand...

  Nil Desperandum Illigitame Carbrurundum.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2011)

Smiffy,

Read this a bit late but here are a few things to consider.  I am  Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management and have been the MD of an international Company for many years.

The crux of this matter is whether the company is conforming to it's disiplinary procedure, and, whether the procedure conforms to Employment Law.

You should have been issued with a Company Handbook when you were employeed and that book should have a clear disciplinary procedure.   The procedure should identify the levels of warning and give examples of what misconduct relates to each level.

The handbook will also need to explain how the disciplinary meeting will be held, how you will be notified, how you will able to present your case, that you may bring a representative or colleague with you and who will be conducting the enquiry.

If any of the proceedures in the handbook have not been carried out correctly you should send a letter to the person who you may appeal to, indentifying what was wrong.

If you disagree with the decision of the disciplinary enquiry then you should appeal, using the appeal procedure from the handbook.

Make sure you make notes at every point of the enquiry, if anything is unclear then ask for clarification and dont be afraid to be seen to make notes on anything said to you.

I would suggest that you have three ways of proceeding with this now:

You can appeal.

You can ask to have an unofficial, off the record talk with the MD and explain to him your feelings and concerns that this matter looks like escallating into something neither of you want.

You can take the warning and hope that it is the end of the matter.

Only you can make this decision but I would suggest the second way was always the one I found best.

Good luck.


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## Lawrence22 (Dec 7, 2011)

Sounds ridiculous to me. I can only guess that your manager is presuming (wrongly) that you and your colleague were horseing around. 
You can try here for independant advice.
http://www.lra.org.uk/


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## RGDave (Dec 7, 2011)

Seems harsh, but it's a a harsh world....keep your head down and it'll blow over.
Bad luck.


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## 19thagain (Dec 8, 2011)

RGDave said:



			Seems harsh, but it's a a harsh world....keep your head down and it'll blow over.
Bad luck.
		
Click to expand...

As an employer I would agree with this as it is difficult to wipe ANY slate clean, always a trace left behind!

Your next months sales figures will, maybe, wipe the slate a wee bit cleaner if you are over target and then it is onwards and upwards.

By next month another 'Smiffy' may be on the slate and this will all be history.

However it is very similar to a defender being given a yellow card ... every future move must now be considered.

Not easy to live (work) with this hanging over you but having a job, at this time, is the important thing.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2011)

Smiffy, read this thread front to back. Like Socket, post #73, I've had a fair bit of experience of these from the mgt side. His post pretty much covers what your options are. A couple of things; you may not have been given a copy of the Company Handbook when you joined but at the very least access to it should have been detailed in your contract of employment. Many companies now keep an up to date copy of the handbook on their server, which everyone has access to. 

The other thing, just in case this is a backdoor road to redundancy you need to appeal your current 'conviction.' If you don't, and they pull another stunt in the future to get you out the door, you won't have as much ammunition if you just take this one as being fact.

Good luck.


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## sawtooth (Dec 19, 2011)

Sounds plausible thats its a move to "manage" you out of the business. If your face dont fit or if they're not doing well they may be looking to cut the wage bill and better to sack someone than to pay redundancy? 

Keep your power dry Smiffy because there could be grounds for constructive dismissal or similar in the future. I cant see that a one-off accident like that be considered as a disciplinary. 

They cannot sack you for that but my advice is to keep your nose clean and head down.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 19, 2011)

Actually Smiffy, are you prepared to give us an update. I thought you only had a set number of days to lodge an appeal or accept the decision. Can you share anything?


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## Mark_G (Dec 20, 2011)

I hope everything went ok Smiffy, but just to let you chaps know how crap the motor trade is, my employer has a Â£2500 excess per vehicle, we also have to pay a contribution to that if we are inovolved in an accident. If a car under our care is damaged (say, parked on the road outside the dealership) we have to pay a fee as a contribution to the excess. Disciplinary procedure then kicks in, with similar results to Smiffy's if proved to be at fault.


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