# One Plane Swing Question - Ball Position



## One Planer (Jun 10, 2015)

I played 9 holes last night after work, more to experiment than actually play and just work through a few things.

Suffice to say I came a way happy, but with a question relating to ball position.

As I was the only person on the course last night, I'd sometimes hit 3 balls off the tee or drop 3-4 balls from 100 yards and in to the green and play different approaches.

Everything from driver down to my mid irons went really well, however not so with the shorter clubs (9 iron- thru - wedges).

With my mid irons, I play the ball, approximately, a ball forward of centre. From here I was getting a nice push draw.

With my long irons and fairway woods, again, approximately a ball forward of mid irons. Again, nice draw.

When I came to my short irons and wedges, Which I play around centre stance, I was hitting a consistent push. Even with a half swing from say 50 yards I was still missing the green to the right.

No shape to the ball, just a very slight push.

Now, our 14th is a 108 yard par 3. First ball I hit was from my stock centre stance position and, predictably, pitched in the right hand section of the green and rolled to the fringe.

Second shot I played was from a ball forward of centre. Similar to my mid irons, but with a narrower stance. In this case the ball flew much straighter than previous and landed centre of the green.

I repeated the above on approaches into greens throughout the round and found the playing a wedge (... or short iron) in the centre of my stance meant I always missed to the right. Playing the ball fractionally forward as described above straightened the flight. 

As expected with the wedges and short irons, there was no shape to the ball. Either straight to target or a gentle push to the right.

This brings me, roundly, to my thread title.

I have a flat, or one plane swing which no doubt you may have seen posted on here before 

When I got home, I began to look on the interweb for some sort of explanation. Low and behold the internet turned something up. In the video below, it is suggested that somebody with a one plane swing has a ball position fractionally further forward (... From about 3.45) as part of their set-up.

[video=youtube;pBcuoGC1tVk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcuoGC1tVk[/video]

I'm trying to understand why this would be the case? I'm not disagreeing as what he says appears to be working for me, especially when it comes to wedges and short irons.

Can anyone help me to understand why a ball position would be different between a one and two plane swing?

Any thoughts appreciated :thup:


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## bobmac (Jun 10, 2015)

Think about the AOA, swing plane and path


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## One Planer (Jun 10, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Think about the AOA, swing plane and path
		
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AOA I'm not sure of Bob. I'm  going to say the plane will be flat and the path would be to the right of target line?

If that's the case, the forward ball position would mean the club path into the ball is less to the right giving the face a fraction more time to get square to the target?


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## bobmac (Jun 10, 2015)

You might be on to something


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## One Planer (Jun 10, 2015)

bobmac said:



			You might be on to something  

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Thanks Bob.

.... But why would that be any different from a 2 plane swing?

I'm guessing it may not be and is perhaps an individual preference/requirement for how a particular player swings?


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## bobmac (Jun 10, 2015)

If a 2-plane swing is steeper than a 1-plane swing, the arc will be more in front of you so shallower.
If the swing is flatter it will be behind you more so a 'deeper' arc. That needs more time to 'square up' because it's coming more from the inside.
Hope that makes sense


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## One Planer (Jun 10, 2015)

bobmac said:



			If a 2-plane swing is steeper than a 1-plane swing, the arc will be more in front of you so shallower.
If the swing is flatter it will be behind you more so a 'deeper' arc. That needs more time to 'square up' because it's coming more from the inside.
Hope that makes sense
		
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Perfect sense Bob :thup:

If you look at the two methods, side by side, you would expect the ball to be a little more forward in a 1PS based on what you have said above.

Funny thing ball position, as it's highly personal and driven by results.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 10, 2015)

Jim Hardy in "The Plane Truth" says ball position for one & two plane swings should be the same. That is, just inside the left heel for driver, going back to centre or just behind centre for a wedge. In your case is it not just that with the long clubs you're more able to put on side spin, so the ball draws back into the centre. The shot shape suggests a slightly inside track on the downswing, with the clubface slightly closed in relation to the swing plane but open in relation to the aim.


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## One Planer (Jun 10, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Jim Hardy in "The Plane Truth" says ball position for one & two plane swings should be the same. That is, just inside the left heel for driver, going back to centre or just behind centre for a wedge. In your case is it not just that with the long clubs you're more able to put on side spin, so the ball draws back into the centre. The shot shape suggests a slightly inside track on the downswing, with the clubface slightly closed in relation to the swing plane but open in relation to the aim.
		
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Possibly so. 

However, I really don't want to be missing greens from 50 yards with my scoring clubs 

As you can appreciate, the additional loft on the short irons and wedges make adding any meaningful (curve) spin difficult. 

These clubs I don't mind hitting a straight(...er) ball flight, so long as it's accurate.


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## Foxholer (Jun 10, 2015)

I don't believe it's purely a ball position issue, though it might be address/solved/worked around by changing it. As MIB posted, ball position logic doesn't differ between 1PS and 2PS. The Pro in that vid is doing everything to encourage a slight Draw shape. 

It's quite possible that, with the short irons, you are actually moving/sliding a little (is getting a forward lean of the shaft a thought?), the effect of which is to move the ball back (relatively). 

Your Pro, having actually re-designed/rebuilt your swing, is in by far the the best position to know what is likely to be the cause in your particular case. If you can send him a vid of the long, mid and short iron swings, I'm certain he can point it out or you may even be able to identify it yourself. He may even be able to tell you off the top of his head, as he probably knows it so well!

As an aside, many top players feel/felt that their 'best' attack shots have been when they feel as if they have a slight cut on the ball, rather than their 'normal' swing! A higher flight with less run-out is normally the result of a good slightly cut wedge shot.


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## One Planer (Jun 10, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe it's purely a ball position issue, though it might be address/solved/worked around by changing it. As MIB posted, ball position logic doesn't differ between 1PS and 2PS. The Pro in that vid is doing everything to encourage a slight Draw shape. 

It's quite possible that, with the short irons, you are actually moving/sliding a little (is getting a forward lean of the shaft a thought?), the effect of which is to move the ball back (relatively). 

Your Pro, having actually re-designed/rebuilt your swing, is in by far the the best position to know what is likely to be the cause in your particular case. If you can send him a vid of the long, mid and short iron swings, I'm certain he can point it out or you may even be able to identify it yourself. He may even be able to tell you off the top of his head, as he probably knows it so well!

As an aside, many top players feel/felt that their 'best' attack shots have been when they feel as if they have a slight cut on the ball, rather than their 'normal' swing! A higher flight with less run-out is normally the result of a good slightly cut wedge shot.
		
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Some interesting points in there.

It's only the shorter clubs where the issue lies. 

As I say, with the longer clubs having less loft I may be able to get enough hook spin on them to bring the ball back to the left after them starting out right.

With the shorter clubs having more loft, I would assume that getting the same level of hook spin with an equivalent swing will be much more difficult, hence the ball starting right but not returning to target.

If catching the ball fractionally later in the swing arc, with the same swing, produces a straighter flight is that not a better 'fix'?


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 10, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Possibly so. 

However, I really don't want to be missing greens from 50 yards with my scoring clubs 

As you can appreciate, the additional loft on the short irons and wedges make adding any meaningful (curve) spin difficult. 

These clubs I don't mind hitting a straight(...er) ball flight, so long as it's accurate.
		
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Either aim left or straighten out your swing plane.


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## One Planer (Jun 10, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Either aim left or straighten out your swing plane.
		
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Ask a silly question, but isn't moving the ball easier and more repeatable than both?


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## duncan mackie (Jun 11, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Ask a silly question, but isn't moving the ball easier and more repeatable than both?
		
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possibly not from reading this thread!

if you currently have a progressive ball position, and it's only with the last couple of clubs that you are getting this issue, you are going to move from what you consider natural progression to something different.

retaining your current natural ball positions but bringing an additional aiming adjustment on the wedges is *a *repeatable option - in fact you have effectively proved it already!


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## One Planer (Jun 11, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			possibly not from reading this thread!

if you currently have a progressive ball position, and it's only with the last couple of clubs that you are getting this issue, you are going to move from what you consider natural progression to something different.

retaining your current natural ball positions but bringing an additional aiming adjustment on the wedges is *a *repeatable option - in fact you have effectively proved it already!
		
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Interesting point Duncan.  

You are suggestion about an open stance does have is merits.  My hips already being cleared being one.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 11, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Interesting point Duncan.  

You are suggestion about an open stance does have is merits.  My hips already being cleared being one.
		
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My concept of aiming involves moving more than just opening the stance!  But as you highlight there are implications everywhere and some have merit.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 11, 2015)

II have just spent the afternoon watching the English Seniors' Championship at Close House. I stood on the 18th, par 3 tee & took particular notice of where each player's feet were pointing in relation to the direction in which the ball went off. There was hardly any correlation at all, some aimed miles left & hit it straight at the flag, some aimed left & hit a soft draw, others aimed straight & hit it right with draw. One guy aimed straight, hit it left & faded it in agsinst the breeze. Asci said before, just asim left.


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			II have just spent the afternoon watching the English Seniors' Championship at Close House. I stood on the 18th, par 3 tee & took particular notice of where each player's feet were pointing in relation to the direction in which the ball went off. There was hardly any correlation at all, some aimed miles left & hit it straight at the flag, some aimed left & hit a soft draw, others aimed straight & hit it right with draw. One guy aimed straight, hit it left & faded it in agsinst the breeze. Asci said before, just asim left.
		
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Goes to show that the whole alignment thing (as taught) isn't such a critical part..... that said you should be able to tell a little more about the intended ballflight from the alignment of the shoulders (aimed somewhat left it's going to fade, a little left and it's straight, aimed straight and it'll likely have a touch of draw) regardless of the feet.... but also (interestingly) you don't see that many people with their feet aiming right (closed to target) as you might in the amateur game.



Gareth.... it's entirely possible you have the handle of the club raised too steep with your wedges thereby aiming the face more rightwards.... perhaps just take a look at your posture (that you're not standing too tall with wedges).


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## One Planer (Jun 11, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Goes to show that the whole alignment thing (as taught) isn't such a critical part..... that said you should be able to tell a little more about the intended ballflight from the alignment of the shoulders (aimed somewhat left it's going to fade, a little left and it's straight, aimed straight and it'll likely have a touch of draw) regardless of the feet.... but also (interestingly) you don't see that many people with their feet aiming right (closed to target) as you might in the amateur game.



Gareth.... it's entirely possible you have the handle of the club raised too steep with your wedges thereby aiming the face more rightwards.... perhaps just take a look at your posture (that you're not standing too tall with wedges).
		
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Will check pal. 

Just seems strange to be only with the shorter clubs.


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2015)

Change your forum name back!!! :rant:


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## garyinderry (Jun 12, 2015)

Big time.  There is a video of tiger saying sometimes he stands open,others closed when hitting a draw or fade.  

It doesn't matter. Your swing does


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## garyinderry (Jun 12, 2015)

Straight   all the time is a different ball game.


Forget it.  Ease a shape. Best way.


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## One Planer (Jun 12, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Change your forum name back!!! :rant:
		
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:rofl:


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## One Planer (Jun 12, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Big time.  There is a video of tiger saying sometimes he stands open,others closed when hitting a draw or fade.  

It doesn't matter. Your swing does
		
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This is the thing.

If I align myself square to my target with anything down to my short irons and wedges, the ball starts right and curves back. 

Sometimes a little too much granted, but more often than not moves right of the face then curves left.

The only time this changes is with the short irons and wedges where it just goes straight right 

Messing with my alignment usually brings in either inconsistent flight or strike.

I'm off to the range for a play tomorrow before my round so hopefully 'find' something.


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2015)

^
^
As I mentioned earlier check your posture first and then  IF the ball is slightly further back then watch your shoulders aren't 'accidentally' closing (aimed right).


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## One Planer (Jun 13, 2015)

JustOne said:



			^
^
As I mentioned earlier check your posture first and then  IF the ball is slightly further back then watch your shoulders aren't 'accidentally' closing (aimed right).
		
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Further to this.

If the shoulders are closed at address, are they more likely to return to impact closed?


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## duncan mackie (Jun 14, 2015)

One Planer said:



			Further to this.

If the shoulders are closed at address, are they more likely to return to impact closed?
		
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Yes

Still don't understand the simply aiming a little left with these more lofted clubs - nothing to do with messing with your swing alignment; just use the same alignment but aim at a target slightly left of the flag!


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## One Planer (Jun 14, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Yes

Still don't understand the simply aiming a little left with these more lofted clubs - nothing to do with messing with your swing alignment; just use the same alignment but aim at a target slightly left of the flag!
		
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I understand your point Duncan.

Furthermore. I tried exactly that at the range earlier (aiming left) and it didn't feel comfortable at all.

Messed about with my shoulder alignment when square to target and found that square to slightly open shoulders gave the best results. 

Further work required for sure but it gives me something other than a block with the shorter clubs.


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