# Crowned holes!



## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

Today I scored a fairly average (for me) 31 points, but I had a number of putts that looked in all the way, only to deflect away in the last few inches. My playing companions also suffered in the same way.  Our greens are fairly soft at the moment, so I suspect we are getting a slight depression around the hole caused by players tending the flag and retrieving balls from the hole, leaving a slightly volcano shaped hole. For friendly games only, we have been encouraged to either leave the flag in, or take it out without attending it, to minimise this problem, but it is obviously not working! My suggestion is to make the hole slightly (not massively) larger and remove the penalty for hitting the flag stick if it is in the hole. Then there would be no necessity to attend the flag for long putts, and you could putt the ball a bit more firmly at the hole without risking a lip out, so it will hold its line better.


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## 3565 (Feb 10, 2015)

There is a certain way that you should tend a flag and pick a ball out of the hole which you'll see it on the Tours by the caddies and players, If we copied what they did then we can reduce the amount of crowning around the holes..


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## User20205 (Feb 10, 2015)

delc said:



			Today I scored a fairly average (for me) 31 points, but I had a number of putts that looked in all the way, only to deflect away in the last few inches. My playing companions also suffered in the same way.  Our greens are fairly soft at the moment, so I suspect we are getting a slight depression around the hole caused by players tending the flag and retrieving balls from the hole, leaving a slightly volcano shaped hole. For friendly games only, we have been encouraged to either leave the flag in, or take it out without attending it, to minimise this problem, but it is obviously not working! My suggestion is to make the hole slightly (not massively) larger and remove the penalty for hitting the flag stick if it is in the hole. Then there would be no necessity to attend the flag for long putts, and you could putt the ball a bit more firmly at the hole without risking a lip out, so it will hold its line better.  

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It's like a constantly repeating echo!!!! 

Do you not get bored of flogging the same horse??? It's dead ffs


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 10, 2015)

Not this chestnut again Del
What you are referring to isn't a crown, a crown is caused by the green keepers when they make the hole, by lifting out the new cut , the edge is higher than the surrounding land .

The hole size is fine, it isn't going to change, accept it and move on with your life


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## john0 (Feb 10, 2015)

Maybe you just need to employ some greenstaff who can make a proper hole without a crown


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## Jimaroid (Feb 10, 2015)

If I could figure out a way to make money from the number of times I've heard someone blame a bad putt on a crowned hole I'd be very happy indeed.


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## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Not this chestnut again Del
What you are referring to isn't a crown, a crown is caused by the green keepers when they make the hole, by lifting out the new cut , the edge is higher than the surrounding land .

The hole size is fine, it isn't going to change, accept it and move on with your life
		
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Think it is a wear and tear issue, rather than any failings by our green keepers. Freshly cut holes holes seem to be OK, but the holes today hadn't been moved for a day or two. Dave Pelz refers to this problem as the 'doughnut effect'.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Feb 10, 2015)

I blame the old giffers for crowning the hole because they have to be that close to the hole to be able to pick the ball out with their suction cup thingies on the end of their putters.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 10, 2015)

I've always wanted to star in a movie and now thanks to Del I feel as though I am..............


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## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

Baldy Bouncer said:



			I blame the old giffers for crowning the hole because they have to be that close to the hole to be able to pick the ball out with their suction cup thingies on the end of their putters.

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I can assure you that I don't have a suction cup thingy on the end of my putter, even though I am a slightly old geezer!


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## richart (Feb 10, 2015)

After I have hooked the ball out of the hole with my putter, crowning is the least of your problems.


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## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Not this chestnut again Del
What you are referring to isn't a crown, a crown is caused by the green keepers when they make the hole, by lifting out the new cut , the edge is higher than the surrounding land .

The hole size is fine, it isn't going to change, accept it and move on with your life
		
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+1 zillion to this

In fact, can I suggest that this be made an automatic reply to any post by DelC please!

Hit it with decent pace at/in the centre of the hole and it'll go in even if crowned too!

Stop blaming other things when the true fault is that you didn't hit the putt so it would go in the hole!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 10, 2015)

It's the same for everyone delc so what's your problem?


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## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

drive4show said:



			It's the same for everyone delc so what's your problem?
		
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It's not the same for everyone. Tour pros putt on perfect greens with perfectly cut holes. Club and muni golfers often don't!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 10, 2015)

drive4show said:



			It's the same for everyone delc so what's your problem?
		
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delc said:



			It's not the same for everyone. Tour pros putt on perfect greens with perfectly cut holes. Club and muni golfers often don't!
		
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Sorry....let me rephrase that.......

It's the same for everyone *YOU* are playing against so what's your problem?


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## Cheifi0 (Feb 10, 2015)

delc said:



			It's not the same for everyone. Tour pros putt on perfect greens with perfectly cut holes. Club and muni golfers often don't!
		
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:rofl: I can't believe I have to pay for all my gear instead of been given it and paid to use it.  That's a campaign that I could get behind!


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2015)

delc said:



			It's not the same for everyone. Tour pros putt on perfect greens with perfectly cut holes. Club and muni golfers often don't!
		
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I wouldn't worry about, pros's don't get 12 shots either


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2015)

delc said:



			It's not the same for everyone. Tour pros putt on perfect greens with perfectly cut holes. Club and muni golfers often don't!
		
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But you are not playing with or against Tour Pro's so what is your point?

What you refer to is most likely being caused by poor maintenance of greens that are possibly too soft.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 10, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			What you refer to is most likely being caused by poor maintenance of greens that are possibly too soft.
		
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What you refer to is most likely being caused by poor *putting*.


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## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			But you are not playing with or against Tour Pro's so what is your point?

What you refer to is most likely being caused by poor maintenance of greens that are possibly too soft.
		
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Or idiotic players who trample around the are of the hole! As Phil posted, Crowning is caused by poor work by Greenkeepers - simply cutting/pulling the hole and not using the board that prevents this. I'm absolutely certain that Greenies use the board at this time of year as they will be acutely aware of the possibility in this weather!

The alternative, of course, is that the course is closed during periods when this condition (idiots stomping around the hole spoiling the conditions for others) could possibly arise!



Jimaroid said:



			What you refer to is most likely being caused by poor *putting*.
		
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:thup:


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## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			But you are not playing with or against Tour Pro's so what is your point?

What you refer to is most likely being caused by poor maintenance of greens that are possibly too soft.
		
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Don't think you can do much about soft wet greens in Winter time. Our greens at Batchworth Park are better looked after than most!

My handicap is mostly based on what I actually score in qualifiers, so the state of the greens does come into this.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2015)

Let me guess - this is a thread from Delc suggesting holes can be bigger ?

Suppose it's been a couple of months !!

Let's flog that horse


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## ruff-driver (Feb 10, 2015)

Have you tried soaking your balls in a saline solution ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2015)

ruff-driver said:



			Have you tried soaking your balls in a saline solution ?
		
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I mainly soak my balls with Shower gel


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## chrisd (Feb 10, 2015)

Del - can you expand on your theory in more detail, I think you've got something there and I'd love to know all about the idea!


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## Smiffy (Feb 10, 2015)

delc said:



			It's not the same for everyone. Tour pros putt on perfect greens with perfectly cut holes. Club and muni golfers often don't!
		
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They also play off of beautifully manicured fairways, a first cut where the ball sits up like a dogs bollock and play out of bunkers that don't have turds in them, drainage netting showing, pine cones littered about, and bloody great puddles in the middle of them with the consistency of wet sugar. Plus they have hundreds, nay thousands of people watching where their balls go so they never (hardly) lose one.
Your point is?????


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 10, 2015)

chrisd said:



			Del - can you expand on your theory in more detail, I think you've got something there and I'd love to know all about the idea!
		
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Somebody find Chris and fill his house with popcorn, then find Del and put the 2 of them together, they deserve each other and it could be the start of a beautiful relationship


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## nta73 (Feb 10, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			They also play off of beautifully manicured fairways, a first cut where the ball sits up like a dogs bollock and play out of bunkers that don't have turds in them, drainage netting showing, pine cones littered about, and bloody great puddles in the middle of them with the consistency of wet sugar. Plus they have hundreds, nay thousands of people watching where their balls go so they never (hardly) lose one.
Your point is?????
		
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makes you think we all do rather well after reading that!:fore:


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## chrisd (Feb 10, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Somebody find Chris and fill his house with popcorn, then find Del and put the 2 of them together, they deserve each other and it could be the start of a beautiful relationship   

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A Global Moderator you maybe mushty but ............!


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## BTatHome (Feb 10, 2015)

So your ball is 'deflected' away inches from the hole, and you think holding the flag is a cause? How close do your guys have to be to take a flag out? .... must have very short arms!


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 10, 2015)

Oh good god not again! You missed some putts, get over it and go practice


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## tsped83 (Feb 10, 2015)

Sounds like your woeful at putting to me. And a negative nancy.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 10, 2015)

So you got a game in, in winter, on full greens. That's a lot more than many on here have enjoyed recently so be grateful. Your course isn't and never will be comparable to one set up for tournament conditions so move on. They won't be perfect at this time of year or would you prefer the bucket holes they have at some place on temp greens


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## stevelev (Feb 10, 2015)

The doughnut effect is caused by the amount of footfall around the hole on green that are not rock hard. 

If you imagine the hole on a green that is not totally dry or firm enough to resist any compaction by people standing on it. Now each person may take 2 steps around the hole minimum. Times that by the number of player on the hole by the days the hole is not moved. You usually end up with hundred upon hundreds of steps around a hole. This causes the ground around it to become a slight bit bumpier and sometimes crowned starting to lower around 4 inches from the hole. So there is the reason for the doughnut.

Now on a firm green if the greens staff do not stand firmly on the cutting plate when removing a plug from the green in which to locate the hole. At the same time they need to rotate the corer when removing the plug this can cause a very slight lip just on the edge of the hole. But this is only right on the edge of the hole not what Del is referring too.

Now if any normal person takes a putt and doesn't hit it with the correct pace,  taking into account the varying slopes bumps and deviations in the green and it misses. Then it is the fault of the golfer not the greens staff or the other golfers. 

In summary DELC it is your fault your putts miss, if you know this is going to happen you really haven't got a complaint. Well maybe moan to the little voices in your head that tell you to repeat the same subject matter over and over again.  Spend some time practising your putting, and if they miss just like several other thousand golfer on that day, accept its your fault.

Now:
A spike mark isn't your fault but we dont need to hear about it
A pitch mark is your fault, check your line
A piece of gravel or loose impediment is your fault, check your line.

Del are you getting this. Its all your fault.


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## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

stevelev said:



			The doughnut effect is caused by the amount of footfall around the hole on green that are not rock hard. 

If you imagine the hole on a green that is not totally dry or firm enough to resist any compaction by people standing on it. Now each person may take 2 steps around the hole minimum. Times that by the number of player on the hole by the days the hole is not moved. You usually end up with hundred upon hundreds of steps around a hole. This causes the ground around it to become a slight bit bumpier and sometimes crowned starting to lower around 4 inches from the hole. So there is the reason for the doughnut.

Now on a firm green if the greens staff do not stand firmly on the cutting plate when removing a plug from the green in which to locate the hole. At the same time they need to rotate the corer when removing the plug this can cause a very slight lip just on the edge of the hole. But this is only right on the edge of the hole not what Del is referring too.

Now if any normal person takes a putt and doesn't hit it with the correct pace,  taking into account the varying slopes bumps and deviations in the green and it misses. Then it is the fault of the golfer not the greens staff or the other golfers. 

In summary DELC it is your fault your putts miss, if you know this is going to happen you really haven't got a complaint. Well maybe moan to the little voices in your head that tell you to repeat the same subject matter over and over again.  Spend some time practising your putting, and if they miss just like several other thousand golfer on that day, accept its your fault.

Now:
A spike mark isn't your fault but we dont need to hear about it
A pitch mark is your fault, check your line
A piece of gravel or loose impediment is your fault, check your line.

Del are you getting this. Its all your fault.

       

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My handicap seems to be somewhat lower than yours, and I am generally a good putter. However a crowned golf hole will tend to push putts off line, and if it really is volcano shaped, your chances of holing a putt of any length become pretty remote, not least because it will jump over the hole if struck at any pace. You seem to describe the issues I was talking about very well before rubbishing my putting btw!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 10, 2015)

delc said:



			My handicap seems to be somewhat lower than yours, and I am generally a good putter. However a crowned golf hole will tend to push putts off line, and if it really is volcano shaped, your chances of holing a putt of any length become pretty remote, not least because it will jump over the hole if struck at any pace.
		
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Sorry Delc, and I'm not trying to be confrontational but weren't you moaning a while back that you were suffering the yips and now you're a good putter


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## stevelev (Feb 10, 2015)

delc said:



			My handicap seems to be somewhat lower than yours, and I am generally a good putter. However a crowned golf hole will tend to push putts off line, and if it really is volcano shaped, your chances of holing a putt of any length become pretty remote, not least because it will jump over the hole if struck at any pace.
		
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Hi Del,  I was merely pointing out the varying reasons for doughnuts and raised lips to highlight the reason for the misses was down to you.  If I miss a put because of a defect in the green its my fault for not checking unless it is a spike mark which we cant repair. But then after putting past it I would repair it to assist future golfers on that line.

Yes but I'm not up my own backside about my handicap to the degree I'll use it to put golfers down who have been playing for many years less, and I don't moan like an old dear about things that everyone has to deal with without complaining.

And judging by your signature you keep blaming the putters or the course.. A little tip.... Look closer to home.

And  I dont care if you have a dig at me. I'm happy with my enjoyment of the game and the hardwork the staff put in. I know if I played more than twice a month and practised at all I might be somewhat better than I am. And my handicap is going the right way unlike yours. 

Keep smiling and enjoy the game and the companionship of others, and maybe you might moan less. I'm bored now replying, as many others are with your whining about stuff that is never going to change


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## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry Delc, and I'm not trying to be confrontational but weren't you moaning a while back that you were suffering the yips and now you're a good putter
		
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I haven't had the yips since I changed to the claw grip about 13 years ago!


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## Tiger man (Feb 10, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			They also play off of beautifully manicured fairways, a first cut where the ball sits up like a dogs bollock and play out of bunkers that don't have turds in them, drainage netting showing, pine cones littered about, and bloody great puddles in the middle of them with the consistency of wet sugar. Plus they have hundreds, nay thousands of people watching where their balls go so they never (hardly) lose one.
Your point is?????
		
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So that's why they make it look so easy!


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## delc (Feb 10, 2015)

Tiger man said:



			So that's why they make it look so easy!
		
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That, plus natural talent, good coaching and hours of practice!


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## Slab (Feb 11, 2015)

delc said:



			Today I scored a fairly average (for me) 31 points, but I had a number of putts that looked in all the way, only to deflect away in the last few inches. My playing companions also suffered in the same way.  Our greens are fairly soft at the moment, so I suspect we are getting a slight depression around the hole caused by players tending the flag and retrieving balls from the hole, leaving a slightly volcano shaped hole. For friendly games only, _we have been encouraged to either leave the flag in, or take it out without attending it, to minimise this problem, but it is obviously not working!_ *My suggestion is to make the hole slightly (not massively) larger and remove the penalty for hitting the flag stick if it is in the hole. Then there would be no necessity to attend the flag for long putts, and you could putt the ball a bit more firmly at the hole without risking a lip out, so it will hold its line better*.  

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If I read this right you've said that leaving the stick in and not attending is already not working, so in your suggestion the only 'new' part is to make the hole slightly bigger

If all else is equal then doesn't this just mean the doughnut (when it happens) will be bigger too and moreover with a bigger hole size the doughnut will form quicker and easier than it would with the current hole? (as the side of the hole will be weaker and not as resistant as the current hole size)


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## Val (Feb 11, 2015)

Another Copeland wind up, let it go old fella. Crowned holes are caused by poor green maintenance not because the hole is too small


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## delc (Feb 11, 2015)

Slab said:



			If I read this right you've said that leaving the stick in and not attending is already not working, so in your suggestion the only 'new' part is to make the hole slightly bigger

If all else is equal then doesn't this just mean the doughnut (when it happens) will be bigger too and moreover with a bigger hole size the doughnut will form quicker and easier than it would with the current hole? (as the side of the hole will be weaker and not as resistant as the current hole size)
		
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How did you work that idea out? Any doughnut depression around the hole will be exactly the same distance from the centre of the hole as it is now, as that is where golfers will be picking their golf balls from the hole. Ditto attending the flag as the stick will still be in the middle of the hole.  I am only suggesting a slight enlargement of the hole, say to 5", which will allow the ball to easily drop into the hole with the flagstick in place. What you say would only become a problem if the hole was about 3 feet or more in diameter, which is even more than was tried in the wide open tournament, when a 15" diameter hole was used!


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## Slab (Feb 11, 2015)

delc said:



			How did you work that idea out? *Any doughnut depression around the hole will be exactly the same distance from the centre of the hole as it is now,* as that is where golfers will be picking their golf balls from the hole. Ditto attending the flag as the stick will still be in the middle of the hole.  *I am only suggesting a slight enlargement of the hole, say to 5", which will allow the ball to easily drop into the hole with the flagstick in place*. What you say would only become a problem if the hole was about 3 feet or more in diameter, which is even more than was tried in the wide open tournament, when a 15" diameter hole was used! 

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1st bold: No it wont

2nd bold: if this is your objective why not just make the flag stick thinner and keep the hole the same size, would you be ok with that?


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## garyinderry (Feb 11, 2015)

Its winter golf.  Unless its a qualifier its not supposed to be taken seriously. 


Until such time as winter rules and shortened courses finish, forget about it.  Just enjoy the walk.


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## USER1999 (Feb 11, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Its winter golf.  Unless its a qualifier its not supposed to be taken seriously. 


Until such time as winter rules and shortened courses finish, forget about it.  Just enjoy the walk.
		
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This.

It's winter, greens aren't great, if you can even get on them.


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2015)

Del you need to come and play your winter golf up here.

When we are on winter greens the holes are the size of big paint tin, you could have a birdie barrage


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## Rumpokid (Feb 11, 2015)

delc said:



			Today I scored a fairly average (for me) 31 points, but I had a number of putts that looked in all the way, only to deflect away in the last few inches. My playing companions also suffered in the same way.  Our greens are fairly soft at the moment, so I suspect we are getting a slight depression around the hole caused by players tending the flag and retrieving balls from the hole, leaving a slightly volcano shaped hole. For friendly games only, we have been encouraged to either leave the flag in, or take it out without attending it, to minimise this problem, but it is obviously not working! My suggestion is to make the hole slightly (not massively) larger and remove the penalty for hitting the flag stick if it is in the hole. Then there would be no necessity to attend the flag for long putts, and you could putt the ball a bit more firmly at the hole without risking a lip out, so it will hold its line better.  

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Derk..Have you thought about taking up foot golf?...Massive holes and you won't get the yips = happy days eh???


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## delc (Feb 11, 2015)

How big are the holes in footgolf?


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## delc (Feb 11, 2015)

Slab said:



			1st bold: No it wont

2nd bold: if this is your objective why not just make the flag stick thinner and keep the hole the same size, would you be ok with that?
		
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The doughnut shaped depression around the hole that occurs on soft greens is caused by golfers feet as they are retrieving their golf balls from the hole and/or attending the flag. I have already pointed out, the radius of this from the middle of the hole is unchanged, so your theory is just plain wrong!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2015)

Just for you 




And if you want to play the game with bigger holes so that it is easier for as you can't putt or hit it long etc blah blah 

Go away to Aus


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## Tiger man (Feb 11, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just for you 

View attachment 13914


And if you want to play the game with bigger holes so that it is easier for as you can't putt or hit it long etc blah blah 

Go away to Aus 

View attachment 13915

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:lol: I could still 3 putt that!


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## Slab (Feb 12, 2015)

delc said:



			The doughnut shaped depression around the hole that occurs on soft greens is caused by golfers feet as they are retrieving their golf balls from the hole and/or attending the flag. I have already pointed out, the radius of this from the middle of the hole is unchanged, so your theory is just plain wrong!
		
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Fantastic, didn't think we could beat tee fitting but a back & forth on foot placement in relation to the hole rim or center!

Anyway the main point of my last post still stands, whats on offer is an ultra thin flag stick (made from a new material I've discovered called Tedium) that wont prevent the ball from dropping in the hole and therefore no need to increase the hole size as per your opening post... are you happy with that?


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## Smiffy (Feb 12, 2015)

I played at a really posh club a few weeks ago and to avoid the problem they had those little remote controlled "drones" hovering above each hole with a bit of string coming down from them which was attached to a little hook on the top of the flagstick. 
As soon as a group of players got to the green, the drone rose majestically into the air taking the flagstick with it. It really was fantastic.
And to make things easier for us, the drones, and the bits of string were coloured to show pin placement. Red drone and string if the pin was at the front, yellow for the middle and white (obviously) if the pin was at the back.
The chaps who were operating them kept well away from the greens so as not to disturb us, and they had fitted silencers to the drones exhausts so as not to make too much noise.
I wish all clubs were as forward thinking.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2015)

I've been there.
Narnia Golf Club for the mentally deranged

Smiffy, I think you should take this post more seriously and give it the consideration it deserves


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## chrisd (Feb 12, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			I played at a really posh club a few weeks ago and to avoid the problem they had those little remote controlled "drones" hovering above each hole with a bit of string coming down from them which was attached to a little hook on the top of the flagstick. 
As soon as a group of players got to the green, the drone rose majestically into the air taking the flagstick with it. It really was fantastic.
And to make things easier for us, the drones, and the bits of string were coloured to show pin placement. Red drone and string if the pin was at the front, yellow for the middle and white (obviously) if the pin was at the back.
The chaps who were operating them kept well away from the greens so as not to disturb us, and they had fitted silencers to the drones exhausts so as not to make too much noise.
I wish all clubs were as forward thinking.
		
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Coo Rob - you do drone on!! :lol:


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## richart (Feb 12, 2015)

chrisd said:



			Coo Rob - you do drone on!! :lol:
		
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 I thought it was one of his more sensible posts.


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## cliveb (Feb 12, 2015)

3565 said:



			There is a certain way that you should tend a flag and pick a ball out of the hole which you'll see it on the Tours by the caddies and players, If we copied what they did then we can reduce the amount of crowning around the holes..
		
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Can I ask a question about the way that tour pros pick balls out of the hole? Watching on TV, they all seem to lean on their putters and stretch to get at the hole. I had always - perhaps naively - thought that leaning on their putters like that must cause damage to the green.

But now you've got me thinking. I don't lean on my putter - precisely so as not to damage the green. But the consequence of this is that I have to stand closer to the hole to retrieve my ball. Does standing closer to the hole and not leaning on your putter actually cause more significant damage than leaning on the putter and stretching over from further away - even though leaning on the putter is going to put a lot of weight through a small contact area?


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2015)

richart said:



			I thought it was one of his more sensible posts.

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It was!


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## pokerjoke (Feb 12, 2015)

cliveb said:



			Can I ask a question about the way that tour pros pick balls out of the hole? Watching on TV, they all seem to lean on their putters and stretch to get at the hole. I had always - perhaps naively - thought that leaning on their putters like that must cause damage to the green.

But now you've got me thinking. I don't lean on my putter - precisely so as not to damage the green. But the consequence of this is that I have to stand closer to the hole to retrieve my ball. Does standing closer to the hole and not leaning on your putter actually cause more significant damage than leaning on the putter and stretching over from further away - even though leaning on the putter is going to put a lot of weight through a small contact area?
		
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I could be wrong but I thought leaning on your putter to retrieve your ball out of the 
hole was an etiquette thing.
Yet again shouting Fore is too but some forget or cant be bothered.


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## chrisd (Feb 12, 2015)

richart said:



			I thought it was one of his more sensible posts.

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Drone Rich drone, not really funny but it was early!


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## Smiffy (Feb 12, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			It was! 

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I'm really glad you noticed.


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## Leftie (Feb 12, 2015)

Crowned holes are a myth (with acknowledgements to Crowborough Beacon GC)

"Time to dispel another 'golfing myth' which crops up irritatingly from time to time, a bit like 'Comedy Pin Positions'!

That is, the myth of the "Crowned Golf Hole" which most commonly manifests itself following a putting round of 'under-hit putts', which have a tendency to veer away from the hole as the ball runs out of steam. 

What is the real reason for that 'crowned' hole effect which so irritates people as their putt slides away and misses? Easy really, quite apart from a mis-read, or a ball simply running out of steam, it's pretty obvious that, as nobody stands with their feet right on the edge, or within a few inches of the hole, even when retrieving their ball from the hole, the grass inevitably remains undisturbed throughout the day, and stands up tall and proud and is not being constantly trampled down flat by foot traffic. Hence the grass will be LONGER around the edge of the hole, almost like a halo effect or the rings around saturn! So don't let your putts die at the hole or they will miss unless right in the middle. Dave Pelz the short-game king reckons that 17" beyond the hole is the perfect pace needed for a putt to hold its line, so just remember that when your ball is next left sitting, agonisingly on the edge of the hole, peering over the edge - It wasn't EVER hit hard enough to hold its line!"

Remember.  Hit it a bit harder next time.  :ears:


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## delc (Feb 12, 2015)

Not as simple as that! A firmly struck putt will hold its line better, but effectively makes the hole smaller, so it is more likely to lip out or even jump right over the hole, especially if it is crowned or volcano shaped. A dead weight putt will drop in as long as the ball's centre of mass is inside the lip of the hole.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 12, 2015)

delc said:



			Not as simple as that! A firmly struck putt will hold its line better, but effectively makes the hole smaller, so it is more likely to lip out or even jump right over the hole, especially if it is crowned or volcano shaped. A dead weight putt will drop in as long as the ball's centre of mass is inside the lip of the hole.
		
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Give it up man. You're on winter greens. They are wet and soft and not suppose to be at their best. Enjoy the fact your course has full greens at all and that you can get out and play. If by April you're getting crowned holes then I'd be a tad more sympathetic. That or put Smiffy's drone experience to the committee and see what they say


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 12, 2015)

delc said:



			Not as simple as that! A firmly struck putt will hold its line better, *but effectively makes the hole smaller,*

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So Del using your logic a weakly hit putt that doesnt hold its line, must therefore effectively make the hole *bigger*

This is what you want Del, just under hit all your putts and the hole will increase in size, shame that you wont score any better, but you cant have everything in life


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## delc (Feb 13, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So Del using your logic a weakly hit putt that doesnt hold its line, must therefore effectively make the hole *bigger*

This is what you want Del, just under hit all your putts and the hole will increase in size, shame that you wont score any better, but you cant have everything in life 

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A standard sized golf hole can never be bigger than 4.25 inches in diameter, but a very firmly struck putt will only go in if it struck pretty much into the centre of the hole. Anything off centre will tend to lip out, which is why the hole effectively becomes smaller as the pace of the putt increases.


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## Slab (Feb 13, 2015)

delc said:



			A standard sized golf hole can never be bigger than 4.25 inches in diameter, but a very firmly struck putt will only go in if it struck pretty much into the centre of the hole. Anything off centre will tend to lip out, which is why the hole effectively becomes smaller as the pace of the putt increases.
		
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Are you now saying that a hole can be effectively smaller but never effectively bigger :rofl:

What about a pin position on a sloping green that gathers the ball towards the hole. Using your logic is that hole not now effectively bigger!

I get that you have a phobia about the hole size but you're going to have to find a way to accept it for what it is and enjoy putting again


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## Smiffy (Feb 13, 2015)




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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 13, 2015)

delc said:



			A standard sized golf hole can never be bigger than 4.25 inches in diameter, but a very firmly struck putt will only go in if it struck pretty much into the centre of the hole. Anything off centre will tend to lip out, which is why the hole effectively becomes smaller as the pace of the putt increases.
		
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Your arguments would hold more weight if you didn't spout so much rubbish. But then I guess if you didn't spout rubbish, you wouldn't have an argument in the first place.


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## cliveb (Feb 13, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			I could be wrong but I thought leaning on your putter to retrieve your ball out of the hole was an etiquette thing.
		
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So is it good etiquette to lean on your putter or not?
My question is simply this:
Is it better to lean on your putter and stretch to retrieve your ball (as the tour pros do), or to stand closer to the hole and not lean on your putter (as I currently do)?


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2015)

delc said:



			Not as simple as that! A firmly struck putt will hold its line better, but effectively makes the hole smaller, so it is more likely to lip out or even jump right over the hole, especially if it is crowned or volcano shaped. A dead weight putt will drop in as long as the ball's centre of mass is inside the lip of the hole.
		
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Yes it is! That 17" optimum - done by Pelz using Perfie his swing machine - takes both the 'hold the line' and effective reduction in hole size into account.


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## Slab (Feb 13, 2015)

cliveb said:



			So is it good etiquette to lean on your putter or not?
My question is simply this:
Is it better to lean on your putter and stretch to retrieve your ball (as the tour pros do), or to stand closer to the hole and not lean on your putter (as I currently do)?
		
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If using a putter as an aid to retrieving your ball from hole the correct documented method is to balance yourself with the putter but not to lean on it with undue pressure


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

The other way a hole can get effectively smaller on soft greens is the top of the hole being compressed in over the top of the liner, the top of which is normally sunk an inch below the surface.  I recently played an away course where the holes looked even tinier than normal. I happened to have a tape measure in my bag and found they were less than 4" in diameter at the surface!


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			The other way a hole can get effectively smaller on soft greens is the top of the hole being compressed in over the top of the liner, the top of which is normally sunk an inch below the surface.  I recently played an away course where the holes looked even tinier than normal. *I happened to have a tape measure in my bag* and found they were less than 4" in diameter at the surface!
		
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Why am I not surprised! 

Pity you didn't have a camera when you supposedly saw 'that sign' - that has never existed - at St Andrews!


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## North Mimms (Feb 22, 2015)

I played at a course in Florida last week that had some alternative "holes" placed on edge of fairway away from line of play.
Big metal dishes inside cups which I could comfortably stand both feet in. I wished I'd had my phone camera with me. Don't know what it is, but it's not golf!


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			The other way a hole can get effectively smaller on soft greens is the top of the hole being compressed in over the top of the liner, the top of which is normally sunk an inch below the surface.  I recently played an away course where the holes looked even tinier than normal. I happened to have a tape measure in my bag and found they were less than 4" in diameter at the surface!
		
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You need help delc! Plus, Why on earth would you have a tape measure in your bag, I actually can't think of a single valid reason why you would need one on a golf course.


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## upsidedown (Feb 22, 2015)

Played with guy the other day who used to be very good shot puter , so pretty big unit and he had a sucker on end of his putter so he was able to retrieve his ball by being no closed than 2 foot from the hole, best I can manage is six inches


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You need help delc! Plus, Why on earth would you have a tape measure in your bag, I actually can't think of a single valid reason why you would need one on a golf course.
		
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Measuring who is furthest away from the hole?  Actually because I had been measuring putter lengths as research for another topic.


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			I played at a course in Florida last week that had some alternative "holes" placed on edge of fairway away from line of play.
Big metal dishes inside cups which I could comfortably stand both feet in. I wished I'd had my phone camera with me. Don't know what it is, but it's not golf!
		
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Could have been for Foot Golf, where the balls are somewhat bigger!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2015)

So you found a hole that was smaller. What did you do about it? It's the same for everyone playing the hole


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## Jimaroid (Feb 22, 2015)

Are you sure the hole was smaller or has your tape measure been cranked for better numbers?


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Measuring who is furthest away from the hole?  Actually because I had been measuring putter lengths as research for another topic.  

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Measuring putter lengths  I really, really hope we don't get a thread on whatever game changing phenomenon you've got going on there.


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Measuring putter lengths  I really, really hope we don't get a thread on whatever game changing phenomenon you've got going on there.
		
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Many golfers play with standard length 34" or 35" putters. Some putting gurus think this is too long for average height people. The fact that many golfers grip their putters way down the shaft tends to confirm this. I am 5'10" tall and use a cut down 33" long putter by the way, but still tend to grip down a bit.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Many golfers play with standard length 34" or 35" putters. Some putting gurus think this is too long for average height people. The fact that many golfers grip their putters way down the shaft tends to confirm this. I am 5'10" tall and use a cut down 33" long putter by the way, but still tend to grip down a bit.
		
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What has that go to do with a tape measure in the bag or a hole too small. I'm 6 feet, been fitted for a putter in a SAM lab and have a 34 inch putter that I grip at the end as normal. Just because it suits you to have smaller please don't pigeon hole everyone or spout rubbish that everyone is using the wrong length putter


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

I must have arms like a t-rex.   At 6 foot I am still bent over like Arnie with a 35 inch.   :rofl:


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## pokerjoke (Feb 22, 2015)

Some times you just want to get some people around the throat and shake
some sense into them.


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What has that go to do with a tape measure in the bag or a hole too small. I'm 6 feet, been fitted for a putter in a SAM lab and have a 34 inch putter that I grip at the end as normal. Just because it suits you to have smaller please don't pigeon hole everyone or spout rubbish that everyone is using the wrong length putter
		
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A 34" putter is probably ideal for a 6 footer.  In my opinion a putter should not be longer than your floor to wrist measurement. My floor to wrist measurement is 33" and I have definitely improved my putting since shortening my putter to match. Many pros, including Phil Mickelson, use putters that are quite short relative to their height. This allows your arms to hang down fairly straight and encourages a pendulum like stroke.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			A 34" putter is probably ideal for a 6 footer.  In my opinion a putter should not be longer than your floor to wrist measurement. My floor to wrist measurement is 33" and I have definitely improved my putting since shortening my putter to match. Many pros, including Phil Mickelson, use putters that are quite short relative to their height. This allows your arms to hang down fairly straight and encourages a pendulum like stroke.
		
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Sorry but I disagree as strongly as I can without getting an infraction. Rubbish. I know a number of single figure players and pros who have 34 or 35 inch putters and have no issues with their stroke. Look on the tour coverage and you'll see any number of top players using these and gripping down the grip if they are comfy doing so (remembering a counter weight putter - en vogue on tour - is longer and you are suppose to grip down) and I simply fail to see how you can say it doesn't fit. Just because Mickleson and a few others do it doesn't make it universally correct or right


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			A 34" putter is probably ideal for a 6 footer.  In my opinion a putter should not be longer than your floor to wrist measurement. My floor to wrist measurement is 33" and I have definitely improved my putting since shortening my putter to match. Many pros, including Phil Mickelson, use putters that are quite short relative to their height. This allows your arms to hang down fairly straight and encourages a pendulum like stroke.
		
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So you think the arms should hand straight down?
Even if they did it would still be an arced stroke


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

If golfers are gripping down the shaft, they would be better off with a shorter putter with a heavier head. Counter-balanced putters are normally fitted with extra long grips to encourage you to grip down, and do have heavier than standard heads.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			If golfers are gripping down the shaft, they would be better off with a shorter putter with a heavier head.
		
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Why. Who says apart from you. As I've said I've been to SAM labs, had putting lessons spoken to and watched tour pros with 34 or 35 inch putters who grip at the top. Given all your documented woes (yips etc) I don't see how you can make an assumption for anyone other than yourself.


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## stevelev (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			If golfers are gripping down the shaft, they would be better off with a shorter putter with a heavier head. Counter-balanced putters are normally fitted with extra long grips to encourage you to grip down, and do have heavier than standard heads.
		
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Well well, DelC obviously knows more than our resident pro. Who would have thought.............

Counter balanced putter are given a ling grip as it is to expensive to manufacture them at multiple length with the balance for each length varying. Also head weight is personal as is the type of grip a person chooses and these are different for each person. I know tall people who think my putter weighs way to much, and shorter people who would like a much heavier head to improve stability.

Before you mention my handicap being higher than yours Del, that is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that you put forward so many weak and uneducated points of view. Maybe if you really thought about what you wrote we might not need to read so many pointless posts.

Good to see your handicap is going the right way though.:ears:


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Many golfers play with standard length 34" or 35" putters. Some putting gurus think this is too long for average height people. The fact that many golfers grip their putters way down the shaft tends to confirm this. I am 5'10" tall and use a cut down 33" long putter by the way, but still tend to grip down a bit.
		
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How many threads is it now that you have started and changed the topic when your latest insane rambling is rubbished by the forum?

I am honestly struggling to see how you can get any enjoyment from the game when you are constantly looking for issues that really don't exist.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2015)

As ever, DelC uses/produces a mix of recognised truth and unsubstantiated drivel!

From what I've seen, the standard 35" Putter is almost always too long. Rumour (unsubstantiated, but believable) has it that the reason they were made 35" was that back in the days when retail Putters were merely a necessary extra, and not the distinct market they are today, they had to be 35" to enable them to be seen in the huge Tour style bags in which they were displayed! That's where Scotty Cameron has had a huge impact! So there's a point where DelC is correct. However, the current vogue for counter-balanced putters is more to do with a migration from Belly ones than any other reason. Counter-balancing has been around for quite a while - I've even tried it - with a Certified Balance brass weight. But it's not so much that it 'encourages' supposed gripping down, as 'requires' it - otherwise it ain't counter-balanced! There's the point where the drivel takes over!

I found, by experiment/experience that 33", or a smidgeon less, is the ideal length for me. I'm 5'9" have relatively short legs and long arms and tend to bend over too much, so probably not typical! If a putter is cut down a significant amount, the balance changes significantly, so to reset the swing-weight to what it was does require weight to be added to the head. However, I don't believe that's particularly significant - except in the mind. While I believe I don't notice swing weight changes anywhere near as much as I can detect a harder/softer ball off Driver or putter, I didn't really notice the reduction by from 35" to 34" and the addition of a sizeable counterbalance - both of which would have reduced the swing weight - except that it felt better for length! 

The other drivel is the assertion that someone who is gripping down *would be better off* with a shorter putter! They might be, but that should only be something to try if they are putting badly! If they are putting well, then there is no point changing - in fact, it's likely to be counter-productive! I've seen plenty of good putters who grip down!

The (desirable?) pendulum swing, which Bobmac correctly states has to become an arc eventually (though probably only for quite extreme swings, and maybe Michelle Wie's action is an exception) isn't simply just a matter of having fairly straight arms. There's a lot more involved - and it's up to the individual whether that action is actually right for them! And it's often equally or more important to match the style of putter to the individual's action than finding the 'best' length, as optimum length can be adjusted on the fly - by gripping up or down!

Anyway, none of this is really relevant to crowned holes, overgrown holes or even the absolute load of tosh he spouted about seeing a sign on the R&A Clubhouse over 20 years ago!


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## North Mimms (Feb 22, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What has that go to do with a tape measure in the bag or a hole too small. I'm 6 feet, been fitted for a putter in a SAM lab and have a 34 inch putter that I grip at the end as normal. Just because it suits you to have smaller please don't* pigeon hole* everyone or spout rubbish that everyone is using the wrong length putter
		
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Is a pigeon hole bigger or smaller than 4.25" ?


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			Is a pigeon hole bigger or smaller than 4.25" ?
		
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Yes! Almost certainly! :rofl:


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 22, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry but I disagree as strongly as I can without getting an infraction. Rubbish. I know a number of single figure players and pros who have 34 or 35 inch putters and have no issues with their stroke. Look on the tour coverage and you'll see any number of top players using these and gripping down the grip if they are comfy doing so (*remembering a counter weight putter - en vogue on tour - is longer and you are suppose to grip down*) and I simply fail to see how you can say it doesn't fit. Just because Mickleson and a few others do it doesn't make it universally correct or right
		
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They aren't if they are made properly; it is perfectly possible to have a counterweighted putter at standard length.

http://boccierigolf.com/golf-clubs/heavy-putters/


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			If golfers are gripping down the shaft, they would be better off with a shorter putter with a heavier head. *Counter-balanced putters are normally fitted with extra long grips* to encourage you to grip down, and do have heavier than standard heads.
		
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No they are not.  More drivel.


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

CB putters tend to have longer shafts to raise the weight above the hands.   it is recommended you place your hands where you would normally have them.


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

The Odyssey Tank counterbalanced putters are available in lengths between 34 and 40", and I believe they all have longer than standard grips and 400g heads.


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## garyinderry (Feb 22, 2015)

[video=youtube;QMqinp7uttI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMqinp7uttI#t=61[/video]


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 22, 2015)

delc said:



			The Odyssey Tank counterbalanced putters are available in lengths between 34 and 40", and I believe they all have longer than standard grips and 400g heads.
		
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Hard as this is for you to believe, there were manufacturers before Odyssey.  Boccieri Golf started working on counterbalanced putters in 1994 and had the first ones on the market in 2003.  They were, and continue to be standard length. Whilst they have started manufacturing longer putters, the original counterbalance putters were standard length.  You can counterbalance any standard length putter.  Stealex weighted shafts were used to counterbalance putters before the long grips.  And all this has been explained to you before in another thread.  

Your mind is like a parachute; it works better when it's open.


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## delc (Feb 22, 2015)

I have semi counterbalanced my 33" Yes Victoria putter by fitting a 100g Super Stroke 'Claw' grip. Seems to work pretty well.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hard as this is for you to believe, there were manufacturers before Odyssey.  Boccieri Golf started working on counterbalanced putters in 1994 and had the first ones on the market in 2003.  They were, and continue to be standard length. Whilst they have started manufacturing longer putters, the original counterbalance putters were standard length.  You can counterbalance any standard length putter.  Stealex weighted shafts were used to counterbalance putters before the long grips.  And all this has been explained to you before in another thread.  

Your mind is like a parachute; it works better when it's open.
		
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And Balance Certified Golf has been making and marketing Backweight/Counterbalance weights since 1999! http://www.balancecertified.com/index.html

So the counterbalancing concept has been around for some time before the likes of Odyssey Tank - long or standard lengths. Standard lengths have standard length grips - and a higher weight counterbalance weight.



delc said:



			I have semi counterbalanced my 33" Yes Victoria putter by fitting a 100g Super Stroke 'Claw' grip. Seems to work pretty well.
		
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:rofl:
You've actually simply put a heavy grip on your putter. The fact that it sort of fits in with a current marketing buzzword is beside the point! But if it works for you, then great! Just watch out for crowned holes!


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## palindromicbob (Feb 23, 2015)

No more crowning issues with this.  Less need to worry about your putter as well. 

[video] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s9HKnVjd48&spfreload=10[/video]


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## delc (Feb 23, 2015)

The other good thing about the Super Stroke 'Claw' putter grip is that it is longer than standard at 13", as well as heavier. A friend of mine who used to grip right down on the metal shaft of his putter had one fitted after seeing mine, and is very pleased with the result. It is better to place one's hands on a properly shaped grip, rather than on a thin circular metal shaft, which he is now able to do.


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## Cheifi0 (Feb 23, 2015)

delc said:



			The other good thing about the Super Stroke 'Claw' putter grip is that it is longer than standard at 13", as well as heavier. A friend of mine who used to grip right down on the metal shaft of his putter had one fitted after seeing mine, and is very pleased with the result. It is better to place one's hands on a properly shaped grip, rather than on a thin circular metal shaft, which he is now able to do.  

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I used to have that problem.  When I got my new putter I was custom fitted and had it shortened, its now a mighty 29 inches.


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## garyinderry (Feb 23, 2015)

Doesn't that get lost when you drop it into the bag?


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## delc (Feb 23, 2015)

Cheifi0 said:



			I used to have that problem.  When I got my new putter I was custom fitted and had it shortened, its now a mighty 29 inches.
		
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I think putter manufacturers should either offer some shorter shaft options, or longer grips, or both. Longer grips give you more options on where to place your hands. If shafts are too long it is possible to catch the top of the grip on your clothing, which generally does not result in a good putt!


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## Cheifi0 (Feb 23, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Doesn't that get lost when you drop it into the bag?
		
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Ha ha when I first got it I actually thought I did.  I thought I left it on the previous hole so went all the way back to have a look and couldn't see it.  I was a bit gutted as the my next conclusion was that someone had pinched it.  Thankfully I used a bit of common sense and checked the bottom of the bag and it was there.  Now I have bag that has 14 dividers so I don't have that problem.


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## delc (Feb 23, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Doesn't that get lost when you drop it into the bag?
		
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Yes that is a problem, even with my 33" putter. The other problem is that the putter head cover tends to get pushed off when you put the putter in the bag, so I am always dropping or losing it!


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## Snelly (Feb 23, 2015)

Good Lord. What a completely mental thread this is. 

If your putts are shying away at the last minute because of crowned holes then hit them a smidgen harder and they will have enough oomph to climb the crown and drop in the middle of the hole.   This is obvious. 

Holes don't contract on golf greens. What happens when a tax bill arrives at Gary Barlow's house is a different matter entirely.


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## Cheifi0 (Feb 23, 2015)

delc said:



			Yes that is a problem, even with my 33" putter. The other problem is that the putter head cover tends to get pushed off when you put the putter in the bag, so I am always dropping or losing it!
		
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Yeh I have given up on trying to keep a head cover on it.  Due to my stance using a longer grip was a bit awkward.  A regular  putter was almost like a belly putter for me.


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## delc (Feb 23, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Good Lord. What a completely mental thread this is. 

If your putts are shying away at the last minute because of crowned holes then hit them a smidgen harder and they will have enough oomph to climb the crown and drop in the middle of the hole.   This is obvious. 

Holes don't contract on golf greens. What happens when a tax bill arrives at Gary Barlow's house is a different matter entirely.
		
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Holes in soft greens can contract at the surface due to compactation caused by cutting and rolling, and footfall around the hole. The rules require that the liner should be set an inch below the surface if possible; otherwise this could hold the hole open at its proper diameter.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2015)

delc said:



			The Odyssey Tank counterbalanced putters are available in lengths between 34 and 40", and I believe they all have longer than standard grips and 400g heads.
		
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Just to correct this. I had a look at some Odyssey Tank putters in American Golf this afternoon. They all have long grips except the 34" version. If I was to buy one, I would probably go for the 35" version as I can actually grip this further down than the 34" one!


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Just to correct this. I had a look at some Odyssey Tank putters in American Golf this afternoon. They all have long grips except the 34" version. If I was to buy one, I would probably go for the 35" version as I can actually grip this further down than the 34" one!
		
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See my post #105! Or the vid in Post #102! You might have to use a 36" too, as some models (that have a 34") don't have a 35"! And it's only the 38" and above that have the long grip too.


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## delc (Feb 24, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			See my post #105! Or the vid in Post #102! You might have to use a 36" too, as some models (that have a 34") don't have a 35"! And it's only the 38" and above that have the long grip too.
		
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In the ones I saw, only the 34" version had a short grip. The next size up (might have been 36") definitely had a long grip. They were the Versa versions, if this makes a difference.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2015)

delc said:



			I think putter manufacturers should either offer some shorter shaft options, or longer grips, or both. Longer grips give you more options on where to place your hands. If shafts are too long it is possible to catch the top of the grip on your clothing, which generally does not result in a good putt!
		
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Twaddle. Do you just sit there and think what inane comment to make next. Never *ever* had a putter catch on clothing and that includes counter balanced putters with longer grips


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## delc (Feb 24, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Twaddle. Do you just sit there and think what inane comment to make next. Never *ever* had a putter catch on clothing and that includes counter balanced putters with longer grips
		
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I have, when wearing several layers of clothing in Winter, but I do have a slight beer gut.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2015)

delc said:



			I have, when wearing several layers of clothing in Winter, but I do have a slight beer gut.
		
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So do I and usually have four layers on in the colder weather. Never been an issue and it says more about your stroke


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## delc (Feb 24, 2015)

Just checked on the AG website. They definitely do sell a 35" Odyssey Versa Tank putter fitted with a long 15" grip.


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## HawkeyeMS (Feb 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Just checked on the AG website. They definitely do sell a 35" Odyssey Versa Tank putter fitted with a long 15" grip.
		
Click to expand...

Marvellous. Then go and buy it a stop boring us with your nonsensical ramblings


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2015)

I had an Odyssey tank #1 at 34 inch. Counter balanced and a standard grip. Surely horses for courses and up to each player to decide what works


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