# Against the spirit of the game?



## richy (Jul 29, 2017)

Thoughts?

http://www.foxsports.com/golf/video/1012464707707


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## IanG (Jul 29, 2017)

Young Miss Moon won't make that mistake again.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 29, 2017)

First thought was how much they battered the pin, lots of spin and accuracy.

Stupid from the opponent.


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## ScienceBoy (Jul 29, 2017)

Things like this Happen to us all at some point, one of those types mistakes you make an then try to never make again.

Penalty applied, move on in the match or life.


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 29, 2017)

Stupid mistake.


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## Chokeahontas (Jul 29, 2017)

Ugh, hard on both of them.


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## mikseymono (Jul 29, 2017)

Always seems to happen with Matchplay approaching the squeaky bum time of the round, having conceded most of your Oppo's short putts...you present them with a stern face for a 3 incher or they just drag the ball back assuming it's a gimme...this is part of the Match play tactics...don't really agree with it as I have seen too many incidents that have fouled what had been a pleasant round.....you really have to be sure of the rules on ALL aspects ...a loss of hole is v penal as opposed to a shot penalty...

M


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## Dasit (Jul 29, 2017)

Not a big fan of Moon dragging the ball back to practice the putt again 


Tap the ball in or wait for it's good call. Shepherd did nothing wrong, Moon needs to control herself and her emotions.


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## louise_a (Jul 29, 2017)

I would have thought after the Solheim cup incident players would know better.

A girl did that against me this season, I let it go but after the match told her that some may pull her on it.


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 29, 2017)

louise_a said:



			I would have thought after the Solheim cup incident players would know better.

A girl did that against me this season, I let it go but after the match told her that some may pull her on it.
		
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I think you dealt with it the best way possible. 
Personally I wouldn't want to win a match that way. 
But I suppose some would say the oppo deserves it.


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## bladeplayer (Jul 29, 2017)

I was gona comment on the twitter feed but too many idiots just loking for an argument on there (far less on here &#128540;&#128540; im joking )
i think alot of the keyboard warriors on twitter forgot these are 16 yr old kids in the heat of the biggest golf match of their lives .. No wonder mistakes were made under that pressure

my opinion for what its worth was the Moon girl made the mistake as she diidnt even look up just pulled the ball back in the heat of the moment after missing the putt for the win .. 
Other girls smugness (possibly not right word) was bit off putting but even if u watch the drive chip and putt at the masters these kids are driven by paRentS and coaches to win and at that level if u wana suceed  winning is everything unfortunately


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jul 29, 2017)

I think the girls face said it all, spotted an opportunity for the win and took it. 

Ultimately Moon fault, but to answer question no, not in the spirit of the game and poor sportsmanship. View may differ if she had run it past the hole but that putt is made every time.


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## Dasit (Jul 29, 2017)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			I think the girls face said it all, spotted an opportunity for the win and took it. 

Ultimately Moon fault, but to answer question no, not in the spirit of the game and poor sportsmanship. View may differ if she had run it past the hole but that putt is made every time.
		
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The girl did nothing wrong. She tried to give the putt but that is against the rules, you can't give it after.


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## chrisd (Jul 29, 2017)

Dasit said:



			The girl did nothing wrong. She tried to give the putt but that is against the rules, you can't give it after.
		
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Probably one of the only times that having a rules official walking with the group was bad, had she not been there the incident could have been overlooked.


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## Capella (Jul 29, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Probably one of the only times that having a rules official walking with the group was bad, had she not been there the incident could have been overlooked.
		
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I disagree. It was filmed (and broadcast on tv in the US), so even if the rules official had not been there, someone would have picked up on it. The putt wasn't conceded and it could not be conceded after the fact. There was really nothing Erica Shepherd could have done differently. It was a brain fart on Moon's side and it cost her the match, simple as that. It had nothing to do with sportsmanship or the lack thereof. Erica wanted to concede the putt, Moon was just too fast.


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## chrisd (Jul 29, 2017)

In matchplay  a competitor can ignore a rules break by their opponent and once they tee off the next hole the matter is over (unless a claim is lodged)   I might be corrected but that's how i see it


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## Owen_Thomas_14 (Jul 29, 2017)

A win is a win in my eyes! She's not cheated or done anything wrong, just what happens when under serious pressure I suppose


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## Robster59 (Jul 29, 2017)

The girl has done nothing wrong.  When Moon pulled her ball back without it being conceded, she was totally in the wrong.  That's the rule.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 29, 2017)

Pathetic sportsmanship, she should be ashamed of herself. She waited quite some time before stating she hadn't conceded the putt. If she had turned and walked to the next tee that would have been the end of the matter and they carry on down the 20th but as stated by Sports fanatic, she saw a golden opportunity to claim the match.


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## patricks148 (Jul 29, 2017)

I like the way she says "i didn't want to win it like that"  if thats the case dear you shouldn't have pulled her up on it


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## ScienceBoy (Jul 29, 2017)

drive4show said:



			she saw a golden opportunity to claim the match.
		
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If a golfer let it slide and lost how would they feel? How would the person who won then feel?

There is no right way other than how the rules lay it out. 

Doesn't matter, if the putt wasn't conceded it wasn't conceded.

If this is allowed to happen then the game as we know it will cease to exist, all rules can be ignored and scores become meaningless.


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## rosecott (Jul 29, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Pathetic sportsmanship, she should be ashamed of herself. She waited quite some time before stating she hadn't conceded the putt. If she had turned and walked to the next tee that would have been the end of the matter and they carry on down the 20th but as stated by Sports fanatic, she saw a golden opportunity to claim the match.
		
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If you read the factual reports, you will see that Shepherd had closed her eyes as she didn't want to see the ball dropping since that meant she had lost. When she didn't hear the ball drop, she opened her eyes just in time to see Moon dragging the ball away. She wanted to concede but the rules official stepped in to correctly state that Moon was penalised under 18-2 and a concession could not be retrospective.


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## patricks148 (Jul 29, 2017)

rosecott said:



			If you read the factual reports, you will see that Shepherd had closed her eyes as she didn't want to see the ball dropping since that meant she had lost. When she didn't hear the ball drop, she opened her eyes just in time to see Moon dragging the ball away. She wanted to concede but the rules official stepped in to correctly state that Moon was penalised under 18-2 and a concession could not be retrospective.
		
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maybe but she also says i didn't concede that if she had said nothing and had just walked off nothing would have been said by the ref, the only reason the ref was involved was due to this statement


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## garyinderry (Jul 29, 2017)

The girl was a little quick to rake the ball back but you can actually see the cogs working due to that camera right behind Erica.  She calculates very quickly that she could nick the win by saying I didn't concede. 

Very unsporting and she will probably be a bit embarrassed looking back. 

I would say it was a rash decision due to the adrenaline pumping in her body knowing the game on was the line over that short putt which for all the world she thought the other girl would hole. 

Bit silly on both their parts.  If you are not even going to watch the putt you shouldn't really go calling out that you don't concede the next one.  The other girl will learn not to be so rash.


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## hovis (Jul 29, 2017)

rosecott said:



			If you read the factual reports, you will see that Shepherd had closed her eyes as she didn't want to see the ball dropping since that meant she had lost. When she didn't hear the ball drop, she opened her eyes just in time to see Moon dragging the ball away. She wanted to concede but the rules official stepped in to correctly state that Moon was penalised under 18-2 and a concession could not be retrospective.
		
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not correct.  she said after moon dragged back the ball "i didn't concede that put"   the rules offical came after to clear things up.   there's been plenty of rider cup matches where the player just walks off the green thus indicating they're conceding the putt.   

she knew exactly what she was doing,  saw a golden opportunity and took it.  personally i think it's very poor.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2017)

Rookie mistake. Don't ever assume a concession till you hear the words. Equally, being blunt, its a bit arrogant to drag the ball back before the opponent concedes.

Spirit of the game? That includes playing by the rules. Assuming a concession is wrong. At least glance at your opponent and see if the concession is coming... if not, tap it in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2017)

The putt wasn't given so why did she drag it back and then have another go ? It's all within the rules - a bit of arrogance to believe it was given without any confirmation


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## guest100718 (Jul 29, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The putt wasn't given so why did she drag it back and then have another go ? It's all within the rules - a bit of arrogance to believe it was given without any confirmation
		
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Arrogance? Hardly.

Stupidity, for sure.
#


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## hovis (Jul 29, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The putt wasn't given so why did she drag it back and then have another go ? It's all within the rules - a bit of arrogance to believe it was given without any confirmation
		
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i dont think it was arrogance.  i think it was complete stupidity and lack of focus on what had happened.  I've missed a putt for a fiver and picked the ball straight up.   so i can only imagine what a junior wannabe pro golfer is thinking at that moment.  she was probably distracted by the grief of missing that put.   a hard way to learn a lesson.


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## garyinderry (Jul 29, 2017)

They may be young but there are good golfers. I can't imagine many of them make their opponent putt out from a foot or foot and a half. 

One silly player assumed if would be given.  The other sized the opportunity to take the hole. You can actually see the second the penny drops and she makes the call.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 29, 2017)

I don't think anyone is questioning the rules. The thread is titled 'Against the spirit of the game' and to claim the match under such circumstances is quite clearly not in the spirit of the game IMHO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2017)

This is the part in the rules that define etiquette 

"Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf."

"Abide by the rules" clearly is a big part of spirit of the game


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## shortgame (Jul 29, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't think anyone is questioning the rules. The thread is titled 'Against the spirit of the game' and to claim the match under such circumstances is quite clearly not in the spirit of the game IMHO.
		
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&#128070;&#128070;&#128070; &#128077;


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## hovis (Jul 29, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't think anyone is questioning the rules. The thread is titled 'Against the spirit of the game' and to claim the match under such circumstances is quite clearly not in the spirit of the game IMHO.
		
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i agree.   life isn't always as black and white as "some" think it is


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## Gopher (Jul 29, 2017)

She didn't claim the match...

Immediately after the putt the rules official told her that it was a penalty and that her opponent had won.

That's not claiming the match.  Sorry, but you never touch the putt until your opponent has clearly said "THAT'S GOOD"

She was wrong.


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## DaveR (Jul 29, 2017)

Gopher said:



			She didn't claim the match...

Immediately after the putt the rules official told her that it was a penalty and that her opponent had won.

That's not claiming the match.  Sorry, but you never touch the putt until your opponent has clearly said "THAT'S GOOD"

She was wrong.
		
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It is crystal clear to me. Moon misses the putt, Shepherd watches her pick the ball up then says she didn't concede the putt. Is she within the rules? Yes. Is she within the spirit of the game? No. If she hadn't said anything the ref wouldn't have got involved, it would have been considered a concession.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't think anyone is questioning the rules. The thread is titled 'Against the spirit of the game' and to claim the match under such circumstances is quite clearly not in the spirit of the game IMHO.
		
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Is it within the spirit of the game to claim a consession before it's given?


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## Gopher (Jul 29, 2017)

DaveR said:



			It is crystal clear to me. Moon misses the putt, Shepherd watches her pick the ball up then says she didn't concede the putt. Is she within the rules? Yes. Is she within the spirit of the game? No. If she hadn't said anything the ref wouldn't have got involved, it would have been considered a concession.
		
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Rule #1 of matchplay - NEVER assume your putt is conceded until your opponent says so.

Sorry, you don't, never do, never ever, bad etiquette to assume it's conceded.  She deserved to be penalised.


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## JamesR (Jul 29, 2017)

Harsh but fair!
She effectively gave herself the putt, as if assuming it would be given. As such I see nothing wrong with the outcome.


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## Owen_Thomas_14 (Jul 29, 2017)

They are both there to win. Winning ugly or out playing your opponent 10&8 doesn't really matter! Progressing to the final is both their priorities so nothing wrong with what she done


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## DaveR (Jul 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Is it within the spirit of the game to claim a consession before it's given?
		
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Is it within the spirit of the game not to concede a 3 inch putt?


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## Spuddy (Jul 29, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Is it within the spirit of the game not to concede a 3 inch putt?
		
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She wasn't given the chance too.  Had her opponent looked over at her and she didn't give the putt then you could argue that it was poor form not to give it considering the distance left.  The girl putting jumped the gun and paid the penalty.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 29, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Is it within the spirit of the game not to concede a 3 inch putt?
		
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There are guys on here who have quite clearly stated they will not give putts and will make an opponent put out, are they wrong?


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## Tashyboy (Jul 29, 2017)

I played a comp earlier this year and left a putt six inch short assumed it was a gimme and knocked it ten foot back where I had putted from. It was a medal comp.
PP said "what are you doin you plank" what should of been a four was a six.
I had a right meltdown.
my fault totally. Thing is it proper got in my head for the next few holes


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 29, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			There are guys on here who have quite clearly stated they will not give putts and will make an opponent put out, are they wrong?
		
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I always tell ops that if they have a shot on the hole they will be putting out.
Its just a mental thing for my concentration 
If they want to win the hole the ball will be holed , if I hole for a half then I might give it.
This is my way of concentrating but nobody has ever caused me any probs.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Is it within the spirit of the game not to concede a 3 inch putt?
		
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Its quite clearly longer than 3", more like a foot. And in the latter stages of a comp I'd make 'em putt out. I've won enough holes by not conceding from that distance to know its valid not to concede at squeaky bum time.

Hale Irwin missed from less than that in the final round of the 1983 Open, and ended up second by one shot. Everyone can miss a short one.



Spuddy said:



			She wasn't given the chance too.  Had her opponent looked over at her and she didn't give the putt then you could argue that it was poor form not to give it considering the distance left.  The girl putting jumped the gun and paid the penalty.
		
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Is the right answer.


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## Dasit (Jul 29, 2017)

Why in any form of golf are putts given anyway

Should always putt out

one of the reasons I don't like match play, depending on your level of scumbag you can gain an advantage

I hhave given a putt then later not been given a similar putt before


I have also been give. 3 foot putts on a breaking putt and wondered what the hell my opponent is thinking


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## DaveR (Jul 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Its quite clearly longer than 3", more like a foot.
		
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I've watched it several times and it is only a few inches. Nobody is disputing the rules but Shepherd had a clear opportunity to overlook the incident and walk away but she didn't. Poor form on her part, I wonder how satisfied she is with her victory.


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## DaveR (Jul 29, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Why in any form of golf are putts given anyway

Should always putt out

one of the reasons I don't like match play, depending on your level of _*scumbag*_ you can gain an advantage

I hhave given a putt then later not been given a similar putt before


I have also been give. 3 foot putts on a breaking putt and wondered what the hell my opponent is thinking
		
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Wow, I play golf to make new friends and enjoy peoples company


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Why in any form of golf are putts given anyway

Should always putt out

one of the reasons I don't like match play, depending on your level of scumbag you can gain an advantage

I hhave given a putt then later not been given a similar putt before


I have also been give. 3 foot putts on a breaking putt and wondered what the hell my opponent is thinking
		
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Sometimes I think you just say stuff to shock people - scumbag ?! Really


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## HankMarvin (Jul 29, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sometimes I think you just say stuff to shock people - scumbag ?! Really
		
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Yep I totally agree with you on this one.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 29, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Why in any form of golf are putts given anyway

Should always putt out

one of the reasons I don't like match play, depending on your level of scumbag you can gain an advantage

I hhave given a putt then later not been given a similar putt before


I have also been give. 3 foot putts on a breaking putt and wondered what the hell my opponent is thinking
		
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Off your handicap??? You have have the nerve to call others "scumbag" Sad post


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## chrisd (Jul 29, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Why in any form of golf are putts given anyway

Should always putt out

one of the reasons I don't like match play, depending on your level of scumbag you can gain an advantage

I hhave given a putt then later not been given a similar putt before


I have also been give. 3 foot putts on a breaking putt and wondered what the hell my opponent is thinking
		
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Golf is a competitive game and the giving and receiving gimmees is all part of the cut and thrust of a match. Just because you give putt it doesn't mean your opponent is obliged to reciprocate, that is the game!


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Golf is a competitive game and the giving and receiving gimmees is all part of the cut and thrust of a match. Just because you give putt it doesn't mean your opponent is obliged to reciprocate, that is the game!
		
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Yep, watch them hole a few decent ones early on then start giving them 18"-2' putts. Then on the back 9 stay quiet on the gimmies - love it. I never expect a gimmie, and its forgotten as soon as its received. No point in getting hung up on what you should or shouldn't expect from your opponent.


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Yep, watch them hole a few decent ones early on then start giving them 18"-2' putts. Then on the back 9 stay quiet on the gimmies - love it. I never expect a gimmie, and its forgotten as soon as its received. No point in getting hung up on what you should or shouldn't expect from your opponent.
		
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Exactly, I assume I'm holing everything. If it's really a gimme there's no problem with knocking it in and if I'm concerned about a short one it's not a gimme anyway.... but I'll look confident and accept if it's given!


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## Papas1982 (Jul 29, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Off your handicap??? You have have the nerve to call others "scumbag" Sad post
		
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What has his handicap got to do with anything?


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## Region3 (Jul 29, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			What has his handicap got to do with anything?
		
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I was wondering this too.

As for someone giving you a 3' breaking putt... I'd be writing him into my will, not calling them a scumbag!


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## R G Roden (Jul 29, 2017)

Any action which may give you an unfair advantage over other players.


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## chrisd (Jul 29, 2017)

R G Roden said:



			Any action which may give you an unfair advantage over other players.
		
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Can you define 'unfair' please?


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## R G Roden (Jul 29, 2017)

try the oxford dictionary or similar.


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## Region3 (Jul 29, 2017)

R G Roden said:



			Any action which may give you an unfair advantage over other players.
		
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Such as giving yourself a putt rather than waiting for it to be given by your opponent?

I'd win mor matches if we could do that


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## Dasit (Jul 29, 2017)

lol scumbag does sound quite strong

different people have different level of competitiveness even in friendlies


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## backwoodsman (Jul 30, 2017)

Seems to me that "perception" plays a big part in this thread. I watched the video a couple of times, and my perception was that Shepherd says "l didn't concede" more in puzzlement than anything else. 

And although you don't see it, my thought is that she did try to concede the putt because the edit jumps to the referee saying "can't concede in retrospect" (or at least something very similar).

Overall, Moon made a very silly mistake which cost her. Everyone does it at some stage - but not usually for such high stakes.


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## wrighty1874 (Jul 30, 2017)

If they miss then you're right to make them putt.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Jul 30, 2017)

These 'new' bunker rules are what I would describe as 'against the spirit of the game'. Even though they said Chapell's banter with Hofman was good natured between friends you could tell what he really thought of the ruling.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 30, 2017)

Agreed Green Bay. He just kept shuffling his feet deeper until he hit rock bottom. The pundit back in the Sky studio had to think really hard to avoid saying cheating. I'm pleased he muffed his next shot.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Jul 30, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agreed Green Bay. He just kept shuffling his feet deeper until he hit rock bottom. The pundit back in the Sky studio had to think really hard to avoid saying cheating. I'm pleased he muffed his next shot.
		
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As they said, if he had a good lie then it would have been played. This rule needs changing as it's being abused.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 31, 2017)

Good to see Hoffman didn't win last night. Also encouraging that Poulter is continuing his good form.


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## lukeysafc100 (Jul 31, 2017)

It's very interesting - because I think moon literally went to fast and didn't give shepherd enough time to say it was good. Moon won't make that mistake again I'm sure. 

Not against the spirit at all - end of day - its matchplay and you've got to beat your opponent!


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## Jates12 (Jul 31, 2017)

In my opinion, Moon shouldnt of assumed, she messed up and paid the price for it. Live and learn. Some people on this thread have gone miles away from the point. She dragged the put back before it was given (And at that stage of the game i would of made her hole it too) Hole Lost. Move on.


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## DaveR (Jul 31, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			In my opinion, Moon shouldnt of assumed, she messed up and paid the price for it. Live and learn. Some people on this thread have gone miles away from the point. She dragged the put back before it was given (And at that stage of the game i would of made her hole it too) Hole Lost. Move on.
		
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The 'spirit of the game' is different between strokeplay and matchplay. You cannot ignore an infringement in strokeplay because it affects everyone else in the field but in matchplay it is just you and your opponent, hence the ability to give putts etc.

Agreed, Moon was wrong to assume the putt would be given but seeing as it was only a few inches I'm 99.9% sure Shepherd would have conceded it but she saw an opportunity (which she could have let go) to claim the hole and move on to extra holes. Poor form by Shepherd, comes across as a win by any possible means scenario to me.


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## garyinderry (Jul 31, 2017)

It was her coach who told her to say she hadn't given that putt.


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## Jates12 (Jul 31, 2017)

DaveR said:



			The 'spirit of the game' is different between strokeplay and matchplay. You cannot ignore an infringement in strokeplay because it affects everyone else in the field but in matchplay it is just you and your opponent, hence the ability to give putts etc.

Agreed, Moon was wrong to assume the putt would be given but seeing as it was only a few inches I'm 99.9% sure Shepherd would have conceded it but she saw an opportunity (which she could have let go) to claim the hole and move on to extra holes.* Poor form by Shepherd, comes across as a win by any possible means scenario to me.*

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I disagree that its poor form. Whats wrong with wanting to win? She hasnt cheated? She hasnt broken a rule? She has won within the rules. No issues or complaints from me. 

I liken this scenario to when Jos Buttler was run out by the bowler backing up, he had a chance, ignored it and was given out, his own fault and an opportunity was taken to get rid of a dangerous player. Break the rules and you pay the price imo.


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## DaveR (Jul 31, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			I disagree that its poor form. Whats wrong with wanting to win? She hasnt cheated? She hasnt broken a rule? She has won within the rules. No issues or complaints from me.
		
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Nothing wrong with wanting to win, that is the point of entering a competition in the first place. Seems you and I have different ideas about sportsmanship.


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## TheJezster (Jul 31, 2017)

Whats with all the condemnation for Shepherd????  

She isn't the one who was silly, it was Moon!  It's really that simple.

Shepherd did absolutely nothing wrong, Moon did.  That's matchplay.

She wont be doing that again I'm sure.


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## DaveR (Jul 31, 2017)

TheJezster said:



			Whats with all the condemnation for Shepherd????
		
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The condemnation comes because she could have walked away and conceded a putt of a couple of inches but she decided to call a penalty instead. I would class it as winning dirty


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## TheJezster (Jul 31, 2017)

DaveR said:



			The condemnation comes because she could have walked away and conceded a putt of a couple of inches but she decided to call a penalty instead. I would class it as winning dirty  

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She didn't call the penalty.  You can see she tried to concede after the fact but the ref wouldn't let her.

As for winning dirty??!!?  There is no such thing.  There is winning.  She won.  Only a sore loser would claim anything else.


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## TheJezster (Jul 31, 2017)

Not calling you a sore loser btw, you didn't lose the match ;-)


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## GreggerKBR (Jul 31, 2017)

I wondered why this thread was titled "against spirit of the game". Now I get it.  
Some people have a hard time accepting the rules will penalise you if you make a mistake.

It's really quite simple, _*you cannot touch a ball in motion! *_ That was the ruling!!!!
Nothing to do with concession, it looks it was but it was not!
Facts are being ignored because emotions and sympathies are coming out - that's human, understandable.

Separate to that, putting the ball in the hole is what is required to complete a hole, so you'll be expected to make a stroke.   
Your opponent may concede it - that's a bonus.
If they don't - then you go ahead and make your stroke, get it in hole, no questions, nothing to do with "spirit of the game or sportsmanship". Come on - so pathetic.

Shaking someone's hand, being polite, being honest - that's being a sporting person.
Moon had a "head fart" as someone called it earlier.  It's a shame but that really is the end of it.
I still stand by Suzanne Peterson as well - think I was in the minority on that!


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## garyinderry (Jul 31, 2017)

GreggerKBR said:



			I wondered why this thread was titled "against spirit of the game". Now I get it.  
Some people have a hard time accepting the rules will penalise you if you make a mistake.

It's really quite simple, _*you cannot touch a ball in motion! *_ That was the ruling!!!!
Nothing to do with concession, it looks it was but it was not!
Facts are being ignored because emotions and sympathies are coming out - that's human, understandable.

Separate to that, putting the ball in the hole is what is required to complete a hole, so you'll be expected to make a stroke.   
Your opponent may concede it - that's a bonus.
If they don't - then you go ahead and make your stroke, get it in hole, no questions, nothing to do with "spirit of the game or sportsmanship". Come on - so pathetic.

Shaking someone's hand, being polite, being honest - that's being a sporting person.
Moon had a "head fart" as someone called it earlier.  It's a shame but that really is the end of it.
I still stand by Suzanne Peterson as well - think I was in the minority on that!
		
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Ball in motion?   the ball had clearly stopped.  :rofl:


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## hovis (Jul 31, 2017)

TheJezster said:



			She didn't call the penalty.  You can see she tried to concede after the fact but the ref wouldn't let her.

As for winning dirty??!!?  There is no such thing.  There is winning.  She won.  Only a sore loser would claim anything else.
		
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she immediately said "i didn't give you that".  you didn't see what happened after as it was edited.  she saw the opportunity to win and took it


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## hovis (Jul 31, 2017)

GreggerKBR said:



			I wondered why this thread was titled "against spirit of the game". Now I get it.  
Some people have a hard time accepting the rules will penalise you if you make a mistake.

It's really quite simple, _*you cannot touch a ball in motion! *_ That was the ruling!!!!
Nothing to do with concession, it looks it was but it was not!
Facts are being ignored because emotions and sympathies are coming out - that's human, understandable.

Separate to that, putting the ball in the hole is what is required to complete a hole, so you'll be expected to make a stroke.   
Your opponent may concede it - that's a bonus.
If they don't - then you go ahead and make your stroke, get it in hole, no questions, nothing to do with "spirit of the game or sportsmanship". Come on - so pathetic.

Shaking someone's hand, being polite, being honest - that's being a sporting person.
Moon had a "head fart" as someone called it earlier.  It's a shame but that really is the end of it.
I still stand by Suzanne Peterson as well - think I was in the minority on that!
		
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it isn't that black and white.  spirit of the game doesn't just mean "follow them rules" 

I'll give you an example of spirit if the game....... 
i was playing match play and just as i was about to tee off the crow scarer in the field next to me went off.  i duffed my tee shot 100 yards across the floor.   my fellow competitor who was loosing at the time put his driver back in his bag, pulled out a pitching wedge and hit it 100 yards to my ball!  he said "that makes things even" 

that says alot about a person


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 31, 2017)

I've just watched that video and the most disturbing thing about it was that all of the shots shown were Shepherd up until Moon's missed putt. That was the only shot of hers they showed vs, I don't know, maybe a dozen of Shepherd. That's just weird, what's that about?


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## TheJezster (Jul 31, 2017)

hovis said:



			it isn't that black and white.  spirit of the game doesn't just mean "follow them rules" 

I'll give you an example of spirit if the game....... 
i was playing match play and just as i was about to tee off the crow scarer in the field next to me went off.  i duffed my tee shot 100 yards across the floor.   my fellow competitor who was loosing at the time put his driver back in his bag, pulled out a pitching wedge and hit it 100 yards to my ball!  he said "that makes things even" 

that says alot about a person
		
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In that situation I'd let you play again, in fact have done on a couple of occasions in similar situations


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## Jates12 (Jul 31, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Nothing wrong with wanting to win, that is the point of entering a competition in the first place. Seems you and I have different ideas about sportsmanship.
		
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So if she had made her putt that would i be bad sportsmanship or gamesmanship? as they are two very different things. If you class sportsmanship as letting someone get away with an infraction that could of potentially lost you the match then yes we totally do because to me thats a hugely backwards way of thinking and seeing competition.

If she had let her get away with it, then lost the next hole and been knocked out would anyone be saying "wow what a great sport she was" or would we be saying "why didnt she follow the rules and take the win" I have a feeling we would have a lot of hypocrites on our hands.


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## GreggerKBR (Jul 31, 2017)

garyinderry said:



			Ball in motion?   the ball had clearly stopped.  :rofl:
		
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I know, she dragged it and still missed... unbelievable...  :rofl::rant:


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## GreggerKBR (Jul 31, 2017)

hovis said:



			it isn't that black and white.  spirit of the game doesn't just mean "follow them rules" 

I'll give you an example of spirit if the game....... 
i was playing match play and just as i was about to tee off the crow scarer in the field next to me went off.  i duffed my tee shot 100 yards across the floor.   my fellow competitor who was loosing at the time put his driver back in his bag, pulled out a pitching wedge and hit it 100 yards to my ball!  he said "that makes things even" 

that says alot about a person
		
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Wow, that is a very generous bloke, legendary. :thup:
One in a million!

It's a nice thought, but I wonder if any one of our "tour stars" might have done that years back (before the money), say whilst playing the English Amateur or Walker Cup or something, something with title that would add to their golfing CV and future sponsorship credentials?  Seriously doubt any Cat1 golfer in the heat of a scratch match would do that.

I give my wife plenty of mulligans, I let my beginner golfing buddies retake all sorts of shots.
But would I give or expect to be given such gratuities in a serious match... nope, I would not.


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## Robster59 (Jul 31, 2017)

I don't see a controversy here although it does seem to have created a lot.  Elizabeth Moon made the error.  Moon took the ball back before it was conceded.  In fairness she actually really didn't give Erica Shepherd chance to concede it, or even look around to check.  You can see the look on Shepherds face and I don't see how she can be given any blame at all.  A very basic mistake by Moon.


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## bobmac (Jul 31, 2017)

In my opinion after the putt was missed, Shepherd turned to walk away which to me means she's conceeded the next putt. 
Unnecessary and unwanted interference from the rules official which ruined a good match


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## patricks148 (Jul 31, 2017)

bobmac said:



			In my opinion after the putt was missed, Shepherd turned to walk away which to me means she's conceeded the next putt. 
Unnecessary and unwanted interference from the rules official which ruined a good match
		
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I'm not sure the ref interfered Bob. As you say Shepard walked away and it was a putt that would have been conceded more often than not. She chose to say, "i didn't give that" and then the ref got involved after. 

a lot of matches now esp elite televised comps, it seems not unusual for players to just walk of the green leaving their opponent having to guess its given, sim to the Solhiem cup recently.


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## bobmac (Jul 31, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			I'm not sure the ref interfered Bob. As you say Shepard walked away and it was a putt that would have been conceded more often than not. *She chose to say, "i didn't give that" *and then the ref got involved after. 

a lot of matches now esp elite televised comps, it seems not unusual for players to just walk of the green leaving their opponent having to guess its given, sim to the Solhiem cup recently.
		
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I didn't know she said that.
Was she prompted by someone else?


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## patricks148 (Jul 31, 2017)

bobmac said:



			I didn't know she said that.
Was she prompted by someone else?
		
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she is sort of looking at the Camera, or someone behind that so may have been prompted.


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## garyinderry (Jul 31, 2017)

She looks around and it is her coach who tells her. 


I can't remember where I read this but looking at the footage its clear that this is what happens. 


The putt misses and she turns around.  Eyes closed or not.  She looks around past the camera and the penny drops about what she is told by the coach. 

If she really didn't want to give the putt she would not have turned away like that.


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## bobmac (Jul 31, 2017)

garyinderry said:



			If she really didn't want to give the putt she would not have turned away like that.
		
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That's my take on it. She was relieved to still be in the match and was off to the next tee.
If she wanted to see the 8in putt in, she wouldn't have moved.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 31, 2017)

Shepherd won the final 3&2 for those wondering.


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## garyinderry (Jul 31, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Shepherd won the final 3&2 for those wondering.
		
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Yeah we were all rooting for her :whoo:  :rofl:


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## Capella (Aug 1, 2017)

bobmac said:



			That's my take on it. She was relieved to still be in the match and was off to the next tee.
If she wanted to see the 8in putt in, she wouldn't have moved.
		
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She even said so. When the ref asked her, she said she had wanted to give that putt, but had not have time to do that. And the ref clarified that she could not concede the putt in hindsight. It was really the coach (who brought it up) and the ref who decided the outcome of the situation, not Erica shepherd. She looked pretty dumbfolded by the whole thing, to be honest.


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## Kellfire (Aug 1, 2017)

So we seem to have two groups of people...

1. Those who are showing that they wouldn't obey the rules of golf but claim this makes them sportsmanlike.
2. Those who would obey the rules. And they're being called unsportmanslike.

Interesting...

Also, many of those in category 1 are ignoring the fact that Shepherd tried her best to have Moon given a reprieve for her blatant rule break.

Baffling. This case is so black and white it's odd that it even merits debate.


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## garyinderry (Aug 1, 2017)

Many times players walk onto the next tee indicating that a putt is given.

Moon should not have raked the ball back without clarification.  She assumed Shepard would give her the putt as she states she would have given the opportunity. 

The reason she didn't have time to give it was she had shut her eyes. This is a contributing factor to this mess.  Had she been watching she could have instantly given the putt (as she said she would) or say 'i will see that in'.  


This delay and the assumption of moon's part was the main factors in this mess.


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			So we seem to have two groups of people...

1. Those who are showing that they wouldn't obey the rules of golf but claim this makes them sportsmanlike.
2. Those who would obey the rules. And they're being called unsportmanslike.

Interesting...

Also, many of those in category 1 are ignoring the fact that Shepherd tried her best to have Moon given a reprieve for her blatant rule break.

Baffling. This case is so black and white it's odd that it even merits debate.
		
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i don't agree, she did, it that was the case and she did want to give moon the putt, she wouldn't have said " i didn't give that" 

I'm saying it is becoming common place for people not be on the green when a putt is being made or s decision is needed, so players are having to assume its given. Even with sheppards putt you don;t see or hear the putt being given she just walks up and picks it up.

She is withing her rights and withing the laws to claim the hole.. no question.... i just don't think its that sporting


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## DaveR (Aug 1, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			So we seem to have two groups of people...

1. Those who are showing that they wouldn't obey the rules of golf but claim this makes them sportsmanlike.
2. Those who would obey the rules. And they're being called unsportmanslike.

Interesting...

Also, many of those in category 1 are ignoring the fact that Shepherd tried her best to have Moon given a reprieve for her blatant rule break.

Baffling. This case is so black and white it's odd that it even merits debate.
		
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Really? Which rule is being broken by conceding a putt in match play?


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Really? Which rule is being broken by conceding a putt in match play?
		
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But she never conceded the putt, Moon moved the ball before she had chance to concede therefore she broke the rule of moving a ball when still in play(18-2 i believe), 1 stroke penalty, hole lost and game over, no possible argument.


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## garyinderry (Aug 1, 2017)

I don't actually blame Shepard.  I blame her coach or whoever it was who must have mouthed ' did you give that'.  She without really thinking just blurts it out and there is nothing that could be done after that.  

Had she turned away like she did and walked on to the next tee then nothing would have come from it.


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## DaveR (Aug 1, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			But she never conceded the putt, Moon moved the ball before she had chance to concede therefore she broke the rule of moving a ball when still in play(18-2 i believe), 1 stroke penalty, hole lost and game over, no possible argument.
		
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You don't get it do you. If she had just walked to the next tee that would have been the end of it. Shepherd had no reason to say 'I didn't give that' other than being led by her coach otherwise she wouldn't have questioned the ref's decision.


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

garyinderry said:



			I don't actually blame Shepard.  I blame her coach or whoever it was who must have mouthed ' did you give that'.  She without really thinking just blurts it out and there is nothing that could be done after that.  

Had she turned away like she did and walked on to the next tee then nothing would have come from it.
		
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She tried to give it but the rules official wouldn't let her as Moon had already moved the ball. There is nobody to blame but Moon.


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## Beezerk (Aug 1, 2017)

Proper tw@ts trick that, saw a chance to win via nefarious means and went with it.
Bet she's popular in the clubhouse


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			She tried to give it but the rules official wouldn't let her as Moon had already moved the ball. There is nobody to blame but Moon.
		
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she tried to give it after saying "I didn't give that" if she intended to give it why say that?


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## slowhand (Aug 1, 2017)

I have always been under the impression that a concession has to be verbalised. The player has to say something, just turning around and walking away is not a concession. I cannot find anything specific in the rule (2-4) or decisions, although there are decisions that state picking up your opponents ball or marker is not a concession. Since she did not get a chance to verbally concede the put, and a concession cannot be given retrospectively, Moon was in breach of rule 18-1 and lost the hole.


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## garyinderry (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			You don't get it do you. If she had just walked to the next tee that would have been the end of it. Shepherd had no reason to say 'I didn't give that' other than being led by her coach otherwise she wouldn't have questioned the ref's decision.
		
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Exactly


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## Kellfire (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Really? Which rule is being broken by conceding a putt in match play?
		
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I don't understand why you're asking me that.


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			You don't get it do you. If she had just walked to the next tee that would have been the end of it. Shepherd had no reason to say 'I didn't give that' other than being led by her coach otherwise she wouldn't have questioned the ref's decision.
		
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at least someone else gets it


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			You don't get it do you. If she had just walked to the next tee that would have been the end of it. Shepherd had no reason to say 'I didn't give that' other than being led by her coach otherwise she wouldn't have questioned the ref's decision.
		
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But she didnt just walk to the next tee did she. How can you not see what she did was within the rules and what moon did wasnt. You may aswell just let all the rules slide in your games because you're clearly not interested in abiding by them. If you havent given a putt and someone asks "have you given that?" when you havent are you expected to lie? Or is lying part of being a good sport as well?


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			she tried to give it after saying "I didn't give that" if she intended to give it why say that?
		
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perhaps because at the time she hadn't given it.....that seems pretty obvious to me. Moon should of either waited for verbal or holed out from the position she was in to avoid confusion. I dont see how you guys arent understanding this.


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## Beezerk (Aug 1, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			perhaps because at the time she hadn't given it.....that seems pretty obvious to me. Moon should of either waited for verbal or holed out from the position she was in to avoid confusion. I dont see how you guys arent understanding this.
		
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I understand exactly where you're coming from mate but it still doesn't sit right, she was obviously "coached" into claiming it wasn't conceded.
Btw, have you ever not conceded a 6" putt?


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## FairwayDodger (Aug 1, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Btw, have you ever not conceded a 6" putt?
		
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Not six inches but I did make someone putt one that was inside a foot.


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## Beezerk (Aug 1, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not six inches but I did make someone putt one that was inside a foot.
		
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*makes note never to play FD in matchplay game*


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## dufferman (Aug 1, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Btw, have you ever not conceded a 6" putt?
		
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This year, on the final hole, 1 down, my oppo had an 8inch or so putt to draw the hole, win the match. If not, we go to all square and walk up the 1st again. He was a 16 handicapper. I didn't know him. He could let the stress of the situation or his nerves miss that putt. He could have been the worst 8inch putter in the world. He could already be planning his celebratory beer in the clubhouse and miss through lack of concentration. 

I've missed those putts before, I've seen them lip out or horseshoe round the cup, or I've hit the ground and tapped it 2 inches not 8. Of course I'm going to make the person putt the final putt of the match before they win. Nothing wrong with that.

Surely, the fundamental point of golf is to get the ball in the hole? Not get it near enough that it'll do?


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			perhaps because at the time she hadn't given it.....that seems pretty obvious to me. Moon should of either waited for verbal or holed out from the position she was in to avoid confusion. I dont see how you guys arent understanding this.
		
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i've no problem with her not giving it, but the fact she then tried to after and said "i didn;t want to win int like that"  IMO trying to cover herself. The fact is if she intended to give it  all along why say what she did. She could have just carried on walking to the next tee and the hole would have been halved.

she (or her coach) saw an opportunity to claim the hole and took it


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## FairwayDodger (Aug 1, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			*makes note never to play FD in matchplay game* 

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She missed it....


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## Kellfire (Aug 1, 2017)

One of my best golf mates gets absolutely furious if anyone asks him to make short putts, meaning anything under a foot or so. I played against him once in a pairs competition and I made him sink everything all day long, because I knew that making them wouldn't stop him getting angry at me. Sure enough, eventually he started get very jabby with them and he missed a couple late on. Afterwards he had to admit that I had done the right thing and it was his anger that cost him, not me by asking him to hole everything.

Anyone I've played against who EVER looks at me and asks, "Is that good?" gets told no and they'll be holing everything all day long after that.


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## garyinderry (Aug 1, 2017)

They say familiarity breeds contempt.  Moon had been given and given so many of those length putts that she just assumed it was given.  She most likely will never make that mistake again in her life. 


These ''was it given was it not'' scenarios, have happened too much that players should by now have learnt from past mistakes. 

I believe if you are going to give a putt it should be given without too much hesitation, stated loudly and clearly. These are usually tap in so its only good manners to do so.  It shouldn't require much thought at all.

Equally I believe if you are adamant you want to see a player hole out.  This should also be stated loudly and without hesitation. 


Moon was too quick to assume the putt was 'good' and Shepard had her eyes closed which meant she was unable to give a somewhat rapid concession or request to hole out. Neither of these actions were pretty smart.


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			I understand exactly where you're coming from mate but it still doesn't sit right, she was obviously "coached" into claiming it wasn't conceded.
*Btw, have you ever not conceded a 6" putt?*

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I have, multiple times. In pressure situations everything is to be holed in my opinion, I would expect my opponent to make me do it and I would expect them to do the same, If they give me a short putt on 18 and they have one of a similar length he/she is putting im afraid.


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## Beezerk (Aug 1, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			I have, multiple times. In pressure situations everything is to be holed in my opinion, I would expect my opponent to make me do it and I would expect them to do the same, If they give me a short putt on 18 and they have one of a similar length he/she is putting im afraid.
		
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Wow.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 1, 2017)

I don't understand why people are going on about missing short putts, that isn't the question. And for what it is worth, the girls in question are likely to be serious + handicappers so the chances of Moon missing from a couple of inches are extremely unlikely. The debate is about Shepherd's reaction to her picking up the ball not about mid/high handicappers missing short putts. 

Either Shepherd (or more likely her coach) adopted a 'win at all costs' attitude that to me did not come across as very sporting.


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Wow.
		
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I dont see why others, and i assume you, expect to be given putts if you give one first? as someone has stated isnt the aim of the game to get the ball in the hole, not near?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 1, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			as someone has stated isnt the aim of the game to get the ball in the hole, not near?
		
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Yes it is but have you never considered a) sportsmanship  b) courtesy to your opponent and c) speed of play?


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## FairwayDodger (Aug 1, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't understand why people are going on about missing short putts, that isn't the question. And for what it is worth, the girls in question are likely to be serious + handicappers so the chances of Moon missing from a couple of inches are extremely unlikely. The debate is about Shepherd's reaction to her picking up the ball not about mid/high handicappers missing short putts. 

Either Shepherd (or more likely her coach) adopted a 'win at all costs' attitude that to me did not come across as very sporting.
		
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True enough, at that level you're not messing around watching people tap in short putts. A gimme every time.


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## Crazyface (Aug 1, 2017)

Jates12 said:



			I dont see why others, and i assume you, expect to be given putts if you give one first? as someone has stated isnt the aim of the game to get the ball in the hole, not near?
		
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This with knobs on!!!! What on earth are you all discussing?????? There are rules that govern the game. There are rules that govern match play. Have a read of them. You play to the rules when playing in competition. Otherwise what's the point of them?


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## ParParTripleBogey (Aug 1, 2017)

Bizarre watching so many people get upset about what is and isnt a concession. You hole out until you are clearly told otherwise. I would never, ever question someone's decision to make me putt out even a short putt - I'd question anyone's competitive spirit if they conceded everything and expected the same back in return. I make a point of being unpredictable in my concessions and I like people that arent afraid to ask me to hole out. I play golf to be respectful and competitive - I find the expectation of concession as bizarre as expecting someone to hole out everything. That's what makes match play distinctly different to stroke play.

On this particular incident, I think both players have something to learn but nothing they should be ashamed of. They're teenagers, and they've been thrust into an awkward situation that they will learn from but was unfortunately caught live on TV. We're all had harsh lessons growing up but we have benefit of learning those lessons away from the public eye. Moon should have checked for concession, end of story. From what I could tell, Shepherd got bad advice from a coach or caddie and the TV coverage reflected badly on her. As the experienced/adult member of team, you would hope they would be very careful about how that situation developed but instead it seems they've sown a seed and the youngster has commented prematurely in a way that meant the official had to act. I had hoped a coach/caddie would have come forward and apologised to take the heat of Shepherd by now as Im not convinced she alone should be subjected to the coverage/commentary we've seen since. 

Ultimately, they're teenagers and for all this talk of "spirit of the game", dishing out abuse to a 16 year old girl for this seems hugely hypocritical.


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## JohnnyDee (Aug 1, 2017)

Late to the party on this one.

And whereas there was a technical breach of the rule here, I believe that the breach was highlighted (possibly by the caddy) and because of what was said by Shepherd - either intentionally or unintentionally (I'm leaning towards intentionally upon realisation of her ability to nab the win) the whole thing unfolded the way it did and the rules official had no option but to adjudicate by the rule book.

However in the context of the OP's thread title I feel it was all very unsavoury, unnecessary and definitely not within the 'Spirit of the Game'.

This however, and with considerably more at stake riding on a much longer putt, very much is. (grainy video but scroll on to 1.45 to get the idea)

[video=youtube;I1ajibVkQzE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1ajibVkQzE[/video]


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 1, 2017)

Isn't the Westwood vs Kuchar match in the 2012 Ryder Cup a perfect example of how it should be done 

Westwood leaves his putt short about 6 inches/1 foot turns around the Kuchar to see if he wanted him to putt out who - he did and all sorted 

The Moon girl regardless of how short it is or how they expect to hole the out shouldn't have presumed anything and moved the ball away without it either being holed or being conceded- she is in the wrong , not the other girl or this coach which seems to have entered the story


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Yes it is but have you never considered a) sportsmanship  b) courtesy to your opponent and c) speed of play?
		
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How is giving someone a putt good sportsmanship? Being a good sport is being humble in defeat and victory in my opinion, not being a push over and giving your *Opponent *gifts*, *if you want to see them make it, make them make it, regardless of if they have given you a 3 footer the hole before.It sounds like some of the people on here are afraid of winning or being called a name for making someone make a putt.

You mention that it slows the game up, the difference is probably 10 seconds between knocking it in and picking it up. If you cant spare 10 seconds you're playing too slowly anyways.


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## DaveR (Aug 1, 2017)

ParParTripleBogey said:



			Bizarre watching so many people get upset about what is and isnt a concession. You hole out until you are clearly told otherwise. I would never, ever question someone's decision to make me putt out even a short putt - I'd question anyone's competitive spirit if they conceded everything and expected the same back in return. I make a point of being unpredictable in my concessions and I like people that arent afraid to ask me to hole out. I play golf to be respectful and competitive - I find the expectation of concession as bizarre as expecting someone to hole out everything. That's what makes match play distinctly different to stroke play.

On this particular incident, I think both players have something to learn but nothing they should be ashamed of. They're teenagers, and they've been thrust into an awkward situation that they will learn from but was unfortunately caught live on TV. We're all had harsh lessons growing up but we have benefit of learning those lessons away from the public eye. Moon should have checked for concession, end of story. From what I could tell, Shepherd got bad advice from a coach or caddie and the TV coverage reflected badly on her. As the experienced/adult member of team, you would hope they would be very careful about how that situation developed but instead it seems they've sown a seed and the youngster has commented prematurely in a way that meant the official had to act. I had hoped a coach/caddie would have come forward and apologised to take the heat of Shepherd by now as Im not convinced she alone should be subjected to the coverage/commentary we've seen since. 

Ultimately, they're teenagers and for all this talk of "spirit of the game", dishing out abuse to a 16 year old girl for this seems hugely hypocritical.
		
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Nobody is questioning whether or not Moon was right or wrong to pick up her ball (everyone agrees she was wrong), the debate is about the rather unsavoury way Shepherd seize the opportunity to claim the win.



Jates12 said:



			How is giving someone a putt good sportsmanship? Being a good sport is being humble in defeat and victory in my opinion, not being a push over and giving your *Opponent *gifts*, *if you want to see them make it, make them make it, regardless of if they have given you a 3 footer the hole before.It sounds like some of the people on here are afraid of winning or being called a name for making someone make a putt.

You mention that it slows the game up, the difference is probably 10 seconds between knocking it in and picking it up. If you cant spare 10 seconds you're playing too slowly anyways.
		
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You clearly have a different perception of sportsmanship to me and quite a few others on here. Did you watch Johnnydee's video? The golfing world applauded Nicklaus for that gesture.


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## Jates12 (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			You clearly have a different perception of sportsmanship to me and quite a few others on here. Did you watch Johnnydee's video? The golfing world applauded Nicklaus for that gesture.
		
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Im at work so I cant see it but im aware of it, 1969 Ryder Cup? Thats a great gesture, but its not the norm is it. Unfortunately that goes against my competitive nature, that may just be the way that I am but if I can influence an outcome, in this instance making someone knock in a nervy 12" putt then im going to do it. If he misses its on him, If he makes it we go down the next and I have another chance to win, if i dont then its on me. All of these things are controllable, jack didnt want tony jacklin to miss and was happy with a half. But, if i recall, it was the last match and the USA would of retained it anyway if Jacklin had made or Missed, do you think that if Europe could of won if he holed the putt or lost if he missed he would of conceded? I think not. Its easy to make gestures like that with nothing at stake, but we are talking about win or go home here.


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## slowhand (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			The golfing world applauded Nicklaus for that gesture.
		
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Yes, but the gesture did not affect the overall outcome, as the USA retained the cup, being the holders. So in reality, it didn't cost Nicklaus or the USA anything.


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## DaveR (Aug 1, 2017)

slowhand said:



			Yes, but the gesture did not affect the overall outcome, as the USA retained the cup, being the holders. So in reality, it didn't cost Nicklaus or the USA anything.
		
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Of course it did, it was the difference between a win and a tie. The GB&I team are able to say they tied rather than lost which is significantly different.


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Nobody is questioning whether or not Moon was right or wrong to pick up her ball (everyone agrees she was wrong), the debate is about the rather unsavoury way Shepherd seize the opportunity to claim the win.



You clearly have a different perception of sportsmanship to me and quite a few others on here. Did you watch Johnnydee's video? The golfing world applauded Nicklaus for that gesture.
		
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well put.

it would appear some have no concept of match play on here


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## ParParTripleBogey (Aug 1, 2017)

DaveR said:



			Nobody is questioning whether or not Moon was right or wrong to pick up her ball (everyone agrees she was wrong), the debate is about the rather unsavoury way Shepherd seize the opportunity to claim the win.
		
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Aye, fair enough. Im just pointing out that there was some influence from a caddie/coach and it's unfair to be laying into a 16 year old for lacking the experience/maturity to deal with such a situation.


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## bobmac (Aug 1, 2017)

This just goes to show how we are all different. 
If we were all the same we'd all be watching X- factor, bake off, football and all the rest of the rubbish


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## DaveR (Aug 1, 2017)

ParParTripleBogey said:



			Aye, fair enough. Im just pointing out that there was some influence from a caddie/coach and it's unfair to be laying into a 16 year old for lacking the experience/maturity to deal with such a situation.
		
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Maybe it would have been fairer to say "Team Shepherd" as she certainly appears to have been influenced by her caddy/coach/parents or whatever.


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## Crow (Aug 1, 2017)

bobmac said:



			This just goes to show how we are all different. 
If we were all the same we'd all be watching X- factor, bake off, football and all the rest of the rubbish
		
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Or, if we were all the same none of us would be watching X- factor, bake off, football.....


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## bobmac (Aug 1, 2017)

Crow said:



			Or, if we were all the same none of us would be watching X- factor, bake off, football.....
		
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Wouldn't that be great, we could watch decent stuff instead


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