# Arsene Wenger



## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

After the great debate that has been going on about Moyes I was just wondering what people think about Wenger and is he getting to the point of living on borrowed time. 

Since winning the Premier League in 03-04 the have managed to win an FA cup in 2005 and get to the Champions League final in 2006 (not taking anything away from Wenger as that is something to be proud of).

When you look at results against the other top 4 clubs they have lost 6-0, 6-3 and 5-1. In 3 away trips they have conceded 17 goals, so rather than blowing Â£42.5M on Ozil he should have sorted out the greater problem of his defence and how weak they are in midfield.

I work with a a couple of Arsenal fans and even one of those think that maybe Wenger is coming to the end of his time, if he does not start to show some kind of improvement. 

At the end of the day you can't keep living on past glories from 8 seasons ago, so who will make the first move? Wenger to retire or will Arsenal replace him, what do you think?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 24, 2014)

Thierry has recently told 'us' to be careful of what we wish for... Well I am wishing for something a bit more tangible than a top four finish... Can't see AW walking away and neither can I see the board moving him on... There's no obvious replacement on the horizon either...


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 24, 2014)

I can't believe he's still in a job. His record against the top teams is terrible. Obviously the Bored love him.


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2014)

[faux French accent] Ooohh. I don't see that [/faux French accent]

I think he's doing about as well as he can without the huge funds of a Sugar Daddy owner (Liverpool is doing better, but, to me, that's a 'form' thing. Seems to wobble at this time of year though - mainly because injuries take 1 or 2 key players out, as is the case now.

As a business, they have made a profit all but 1 year (and that was only a 'small' loss) of the Premiership (from memory) and built a new stadium. No-one else has come close to that sort of record.

Interesting relationship with their 'tame' oligarch though!

Anyone else read the story of how Dien went acquired him?


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## happyhacker (Mar 24, 2014)

You could have Moyes soon with a bit of luck


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## MegaSteve (Mar 24, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I can't believe he's still in a job. His record against the top teams is terrible. Obviously the Bored love him.
		
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Record against 'average' teams ain't so good either... 
But still in a better position than sixteen other clubs...


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## cookelad (Mar 24, 2014)

Loved the line on the Beeb website the other day, basically saying the next few results would decide whether Wenger signed a new contract!

Isn't that a bit like me saying unless *my* medal scores improve I'm leaving my course and going somewhere else?


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## garyinderry (Mar 24, 2014)

david moyes is proving the top 4 is not a given for a top team.  you have to earn it.


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## fundy (Mar 24, 2014)

Thing is, Wenger is doing a great job for the shareholders, constantly growing the value of the business etc. This doesnt provide the best option as a short term football fan where other clubs are being funded by benefactors and hence spending excessive amounts of funds but on relatively minimal spend Wenger is keeping them in CL football and keeping the expensive stadium with expensive seats full almost all the time. Boils down to priorities and those of Arsenals board dont necessarily reflect the same as those of the modern football fan. Has to be said though, the fans that really get me are those that think Arsenal have a divine right to be winning something every year - they dont and nor does any other club. Whilst as a fan there is plenty to criticise about Wenger its far more stable than it has been previously (or at many many other clubs who constantly change managers to little effect). The big issue Arsenal are going to have to face is the same as Man U are now, the initial impact when he goes could be pretty damaging


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## sawtooth (Mar 24, 2014)

Wenger has been hugely successful with Arsenal and even in the last 9 seasons he has still brought success to the club. OK it hasnt been in the form of winning cups but in other areas. New ground, new training facilities, qualification for CL every single year. All that when trying to balance the books and a average net spend on players less than most other clubs in the league. Amazing.:whoo:

Dont forget, Wenger has competed with hugely rich clubs Man City, Chelsea and United for years - hardly a level playing field. I think about how much he would have won if rich benefactors hadnt come in with their millions. They buy all the best players, they tempt them away from Arsenal with salaries, I've lost count of the players that were signing for Arsenal but then money turned their heads.

Anyone who thinks Wenger should go either support rival teams or dont really have a grasp on reality in my opinion. Its not all about winning cups year on year. In any case Wenger (if he sticks around - i think he will) will now have a better chance in the next years ahead. Financial fair play rules should start to kick in and because he has doubled the gate receipts by building the Emirates , Arsenal football related earnings should be on par if not better than most of its nearest rivals.

I predict another long spell of success similar to when Wenger's earlier years coming up.

Top 4 again this year and possibly an FA cup as well. Is it really all that bad? Of course it isnt.


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## USER1999 (Mar 24, 2014)

Hes been great for the club, but my view is its time to go. Thanks for everything, but it's now time to change.

He is stubborn, tactically naieve, out of date, etc. His training kills the players, they get injured, rushed back etc. His team's are one dimensional, his scouting is now poor, his judgement in the transfer window is poor too. The last few transfer Windows have been a shambles.

Arsenal need a new manager, with a new vision. Some one like klopp.

No given  right to win stuff, but an end to ground hog day.


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Wenger has been hugely successful with Arsenal and even in the last 9 seasons he has still brought success to the club. OK it hasnt been in the form of winning cups but in other areas. New ground, new training facilities, qualification for CL every single year. All that when trying to balance the books and a average net spend on players less than most other clubs in the league. Amazing.:whoo:

Dont forget, Wenger has competed with hugely rich clubs Man City, Chelsea and United for years - hardly a level playing field. I think about how much he would have won if rich benefactors hadnt come in with their millions. They buy all the best players, they tempt them away from Arsenal with salaries, I've lost count of the players that were signing for Arsenal but then money turned their heads.

Anyone who thinks Wenger should go either support rival teams or dont really have a grasp on reality in my opinion. Its not all about winning cups year on year. In any case Wenger (if he sticks around - i think he will) will now have a better chance in the next years ahead. Financial fair play rules should start to kick in and because he has doubled the gate receipts by building the Emirates , Arsenal football related earnings should be on par if not better than most of its nearest rivals.

I predict another long spell of success similar to when Wenger's earlier years coming up.

Top 4 again this year and possibly an FA cup as well. Is it really all that bad? Of course it isnt.
		
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H'mm! Along with Liverpool, probably the most patient (or gullible?) fans in EPL. 

It hasn't all been down to Wenger by any means, but he has certainly been the man for his job during the period imo. Good for the shareholders is quite different from being good for the fans though!

I don't believe FFP will achieve all its 'goals' and it's likely to further polarise teams - at least in the EPL and other top leagues. It's generally fine for lower leagues though - in spite of the likes of QPR being 'blips', if they ever get their act together!

I actually hope that Arsenal win the FA Cup to quash the 'no silverware' criticism - though that'll just change to 'only 1 trophy'. But performance against 'peers' has been pretty woeful!

It might just be bad timing as well! Any success a couple of years ago would seal his 'greatness' but he may be getting a bit 'past it' in so many ways (not just his eyesight!). But would still be in the running as a candidate for a 'replacement'!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Wenger has been hugely successful with Arsenal and even in the last 9 seasons he has still brought success to the club. OK it hasnt been in the form of winning cups but in other areas. New ground, new training facilities, qualification for CL every single year. All that when trying to balance the books and a average net spend on players less than most other clubs in the league. Amazing.:whoo:

Dont forget, Wenger has competed with hugely rich clubs Man City, Chelsea and United for years - hardly a level playing field. I think about how much he would have won if rich benefactors hadnt come in with their millions. They buy all the best players, they tempt them away from Arsenal with salaries, I've lost count of the players that were signing for Arsenal but then money turned their heads.

Anyone who thinks Wenger should go either support rival teams or dont really have a grasp on reality in my opinion. Its not all about winning cups year on year. In any case Wenger (if he sticks around - i think he will) will now have a better chance in the next years ahead. Financial fair play rules should start to kick in and because he has doubled the gate receipts by building the Emirates , Arsenal football related earnings should be on par if not better than most of its nearest rivals.

I predict another long spell of success similar to when Wenger's earlier years coming up.

Top 4 again this year and possibly an FA cup as well. Is it really all that bad? Of course it isnt.
		
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Think that's a good post

I admire Wengers methods and his tactics at times 

The problem is he seems to fail to see the glaring holes in his team - a prolific striker and a strong battling centre mid, they have been the teams issues for years. He seems afraid to try and play a little bit ugly at times to get a result.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

As an Arsenal fan I love Arsene there isn't another manager in world football I would want at the club FA cup and top 4 will be a good season.


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## cookelad (Mar 24, 2014)

I think next season will be the defining season, after coming through the stadium build and financial restraints he now has a point to prove, but needs a couple of good signings - the same ones we've been saying for a couple of years!


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I admire Wengers methods and his tactics at times 

The problem is he seems to fail to see the glaring holes in his team - a prolific striker and a strong battling centre mid, they have been the teams issues for years. He seems afraid to try and play a little bit ugly at times to get a result.
		
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This is the one criticism I have heard and read from Arsenal supporters about Wenger. His choices in the transfer market have not been the best. He needs someone who can dig and get ugly in the middle of the park, stop other teams pushing them around. With all attacking midfield options he has, did he really need to blow the transfer budget on Ozil? 

Whu didn't he go and break the bank to get Cabaye, Newcastle proved that would sell him if the offer was right. Maybe he just did not play enough pretty football for Wenger. Wenger needs to wake up and realise one thing, this is the English game and people will just dig in and get physical with you. He has moaned many a time about this, a bit like Mourhinio did the other week about West Ham, BUt hen again at least he was man enough to say that if he was Allardyce he would have done hte same.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

He didn't blow the budget Arsenal have over 80 mil in cash in their accounts.


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## USER1999 (Mar 24, 2014)

At the end of this season, arsenal need to replace Sagna, fabianski, and probably vermalen. Wenger could spend 30 odd mil, and still have the same massive holes in the squad. He needed to buy in January.

There is no plan, there never has been.


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			He didn't blow the budget Arsenal have over 80 mil in cash in their accounts.
		
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There might be 80M in the accounts but how much of that was he allowed to spend in the summer?


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## USER1999 (Mar 24, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			There might be 80M in the accounts but how much of that was he allowed to spend in the summer?
		
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Probably most of it, as it's nearer 140 mill as far as I know.

Ozil fell into wengers lap. He was never part of the plan. The targets were higuain, then Suarez. If he had been serious, with a proper plan, he would have offered pool what they wanted for Suarez. He didn't, and that's part of the problem.


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## USER1999 (Mar 24, 2014)

As far as I know we never even put a bid in for higuain.


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			At the end of this season, arsenal need to replace Sagna, fabianski, and probably vermalen. Wenger could spend 30 odd mil, and still have the same massive holes in the squad. He needed to buy in January.

There is no plan, there never has been.
		
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The arsenal team to me is starting to look Liverpool did a couple of years ago, too many players needing replacing. I hope for Arsenals sake they can plug those holes before it is too late. A few years ago there was only really 4 teams in the Premier League, so Champions League football was a given to them every year. No doubt United will sort their **** out in the summer and add in Spurs there is 6 strong teams in the League all looking for those top 4 slots.


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Probably most of it, as it's nearer 140 mill as far as I know.

Ozil fell into wengers lap. He was never part of the plan. The targets were higuain, then Suarez. If he had been serious, with a proper plan, he would have offered pool what they wanted for Suarez. He didn't, and that's part of the problem.
		
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It's hard to fault Wenger for standing by his guns and refusing to make teams pay more than he wants. But what he needs to realise is that if he wants someone that plays for a team that do not want to, or needs to sell then he needs to make an offer they can't refuse. A bit like the Bale transfer, Real wanted him and knew they would need to pay over the odds to make Spurs part with him...


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## USER1999 (Mar 24, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			It's hard to fault Wenger for standing by his guns and refusing to make teams pay more than he wants. But what he needs to realise is that if he wants someone that plays for a team that do not want to, or needs to sell then he needs to make an offer they can't refuse. A bit like the Bale transfer, Real wanted him and knew they would need to pay over the odds to make Spurs part with him...
		
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What he needs to do is retire.


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## anotherdouble (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			As an Arsenal fan I love Arsene there isn't another manager in world football I would want at the club FA cup and top 4 will be a good season.
		
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Whist I applaud your loyalty do you really really believe that Wenger is the best manager in the world today. Forget past achievements or how he has built a new stadium, my question is based purely on how the team plays, tactics and results.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

Yes


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

I do think Wenger needs to adapt a bit more and realise whilst his philosophy is very commendable ( beautiful passing football and a shoestring budget ) he will need to get in a few "dirty" players and play ugly - if not then he could possibly time for him to move upstairs. Klopp would be the perfect replacement but the list would be very short .


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 24, 2014)

It's all well and good playing so called beautiful football if you actually win something whilst doing it. Arsene as spent more than enough to win a cup in the last 8yrs or so.


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## cookelad (Mar 24, 2014)

Starting with Flamini on the bench on Saturday was a big tactical error for me, we'll never know if he could have turned a 6-0 loss into a win but would have made those early goals a lot harder to come by!

Arsenal should have approached the game at Stamford Bridge the way Chelsea did the one at The Emirates.


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			As an Arsenal fan I love Arsene there isn't another manager in world football I would want at the club FA cup and top 4 will be a good season.
		
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Maybe it is, as a Liverpool I would have been more than happy with that this year. But what about next year? Spurs are hot on your heels at the minute and if United sort themself out they will be back fighting for a top 4 slot. Liverpool are already looking at players that will improve not just the squad but hte starting 11. Chelsea and City are given to stay up there in the top 4. So 4 teams will be fighting for 2 positions.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

Arsenal were supposed to definitely miss out this season given Spurs spending Arsenal now have money and there own money not some sugar daddy's it will be interesting to see what happens with it, the only worry is the amount of injuries we had this season far more than any other club and losing Ramsey who was statistically the best player in the premier league by a mile was a massive blow.

FA cup and top4 will be a good season 

I don't think there is another manager who could have gotten Arsenal through the last 8 years spending what Arsenal did without dropping out of the top, 4 Wenger is a genius if I was on the board at Arsenal I would keep him as long as he wants to be there.


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## sawtooth (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Arsenal were supposed to definitely miss out this season given Spurs spending Arsenal now have money and there own money not some sugar daddy's it will be interesting to see what happens with it, the only worry is the amount of injuries we had this season far more than any other club and losing Ramsey who was statistically the best player in the premier league by a mile was a massive blow.

FA cup and top4 will be a good season 

I don't think there is another manager who could have gotten Arsenal through the last 8 years spending what Arsenal did without dropping out of the top, 4 Wenger is a genius if I was on the board at Arsenal I would keep him as long as he wants to be there.
		
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:cheers:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Arsenal were supposed to definitely miss out this season given Spurs spending Arsenal now have money and there own money not some sugar daddy's it will be interesting to see what happens with it, *the only worry is the amount of injuries we had this season far more than any other club *and losing Ramsey who was statistically the best player in the premier league by a mile was a massive blow.

FA cup and top4 will be a good season 

I don't think there is another manager who could have gotten Arsenal through the last 8 years spending what Arsenal did without dropping out of the top, 4 Wenger is a genius if I was on the board at Arsenal I would keep him as long as he wants to be there.
		
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Really ? We have spent most of the season without our first choice back 4 

Think the injuries have been pretty even throughout the teams with perhaps Chelsea not losing too many players


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Arsenal were supposed to definitely miss out this season given Spurs spending Arsenal now have money and there own money not some sugar daddy's it will be interesting to see what happens with it, the only worry is the amount of injuries we had this season far more than any other club and losing Ramsey who was statistically the best player in the premier league by a mile was a massive blow.

FA cup and top4 will be a good season 

I don't think there is another manager who could have gotten Arsenal through the last 8 years spending what Arsenal did without dropping out of the top, 4 Wenger is a genius if I was on the board at Arsenal I would keep him as long as he wants to be there.
		
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I do not understand the genius statement? I agree he had done well with what he had available, but to be a genius you have to win it with what he had.

Now Fergie, there is a genius for you. Not only did he manage to always get into the Champion League, he actually managed to win the Premier League with some pretty average looking teams. At times not in the same ball park as some of his rivals. Look at last year, that team on paper was no where near as good as Chelsea or City, but he still managed to win the League.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

he has won it, he went a season unbeaten he has two doubles ? he has a net spend over 17 years of about 50 mil Utd have spent more than that this season on top of a title winning team


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			he has won it, he went a season unbeaten he has two doubles ? he has a net spend over 17 years of about 50 mil Utd have spent more than that this season on top of a title winning team
		
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It was nearly ten years ago though and last trophy was nearly 9 years ago now.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really ? We have spent most of the season without our first choice back 4 

Think the injuries have been pretty even throughout the teams with perhaps Chelsea not losing too many players
		
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Sorry you have to click on it to enlarge Liverpool are up there but Arsenal have had way more


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



View attachment 9667


Sorry you have to click on it to enlarge Liverpool are up there but Arsenal have had way more
		
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What is an injury point ?!


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was nearly ten years ago though and last trophy was nearly 9 years ago now.
		
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Sorry I didn't realise they stop counting after a while, should win the FA cup this season


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 24, 2014)

Can't knock his consistency for making it in the top 4 year after year.  Spurs & Liverpool don't seem to find it so easy,even when they splash the cash. 
Surely Arsenal will win the FA cup this year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Sorry I didn't realise they stop counting after a while, should win the FA cup this season
		
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They don't stop counting but surely to judge Wengers success right now you need to look at current times

And I wouldn't count the FA Cup just yet.

You have spent Â£150mil in three years - what return would you expect from that ?


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 24, 2014)

I'd definitely say Arsenal have been dealt the worse hand when it comes to injuries this season. Walcott was looking good before his injury & as been a big loss.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

A point is given every time a first team player is unavailable through injury, Woj is the only player not to miss a game though injury


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			he has won it, he went a season unbeaten he has two doubles ? he has a net spend over 17 years of about 50 mil Utd have spent more than that this season on top of a title winning team
		
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Not bad going is it, net spend of 50M. That is only because everyone leaves Arsenal once a better offer comes along as they want ot go and win trophies. Toure, Nasri, Fabregas, Song, RVP, Cole, Adabeyour, just to name a few. That is why you have such a good nett spend, because no one wants to stay at Arsenal. It must be frustrating to see players of those abilities walking away all the time.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They don't stop counting but surely to judge Wengers success right now you need to look at current times

And I wouldn't count the FA Cup just yet.

You have spent Â£150mil in three years - what return would you expect from that ?
		
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What is the figure for players sold?


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

They don't stop counting but surely to judge Wengers success right now you need to look at current times

 And I wouldn't count the FA Cup just yet.

 You have spent Â£150mil in three years - what return would you expect from that ? 

It depends on what you call success Arsenal driven by Wenger have built a luxury stadium and financed it them selves without dropping out of the top 4 in a period where most of the clubs around them have spent massively 

Arsenal do not have a net spend of Â£150mil all monies spent until this season have been recouped by player sales


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			A point is given every time a first team player is unavailable through injury, Woj is the only player not to miss a game though injury
		
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Two players stick out straight away - Walcott and Wilshire - constantly injured - so why hasn't Wenger looked at support in the squad for them ? 

We have struggled badly all season with our back 4 injuries but teams just get by and bring in youngsters etc - how teams cope will show the strength of the team.


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## anotherdouble (Mar 24, 2014)

They should have won the league cup a couple of years ago but they grasped defeat from the jaws of trophy success to that gigantic club Birmingham.  Maybe the FA Cup is not a forgone conclusion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			They don't stop counting but surely to judge Wengers success right now you need to look at current times

 And I wouldn't count the FA Cup just yet.

 You have spent Â£150mil in three years - what return would you expect from that ? 

It depends on what you call success Arsenal driven by Wenger have built a luxury stadium and financed it them selves without dropping out of the top 4 in a period where most of the clubs around them have spent massively 

Arsenal do not have a net spend of Â£150mil all monies spent until this season have been recouped by player sales
		
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Success for the top clubs is measured in trophies -  that's the aim for the big teams - silverware, the lack of that silverware for Arsenal is why you keep losing your top players.

Most of the other clubs have spent massively - they have also won the trophies 

Arsenal have bought Â£150mil pounds worth of players in 3 seasons - what success has those players brought to Arsenal


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Not bad going is it, net spend of 50M. That is only because everyone leaves Arsenal once a better offer comes along as they want ot go and win trophies. Toure, Nasri, Fabregas, Song, RVP, Cole, Adabeyour, just to name a few. That is why you have such a good nett spend, because no one wants to stay at Arsenal. It must be frustrating to see players of those abilities walking away all the time.
		
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The only one I would keep would be Cesc but he was always going to go to Barca, the above only highlights Wengers successfor me  given the constraints he was working to, and you cannot blame a player for leaving if the club has had to change there priorities to secure a long term future. A playing career is short they want to win things which again highlights Wengers loyalty given that he has been offered the managers job at every major team in club football during that time as well as a number of international roles.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			The only one I would keep would be Cesc but he was always going to go to Barca, the above only highlights Wengers successfor me  given the constraints he was working to, and you cannot blame a player for leaving if the club has had to change there priorities to secure a long term future. A playing career is short they want to win things which again highlights Wengers loyalty given that he has been offered the managers job at every major team in club football during that time as well as a number of international roles.
		
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Which management jobs has he been "offered" ?


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## anotherdouble (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Arsenal do not have a net spend of Â£150mil all monies spent until this season have been recouped by player sales
		
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So are you saying that a club like Arsenal in plain simple terms are just a selling club. Don't want to win anything but just make money by selling players. Oh what joy the fans have got to look forward to each August. Very nice stadium, extortionate ticket prices and a top four finish


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Success for the top clubs is measured in trophies -  that's the aim for the big teams - silverware, the lack of that silverware for Arsenal is why you keep losing your top players.

Most of the other clubs have spent massively - they have also won the trophies 

Arsenal have bought Â£150mil pounds worth of players in 3 seasons - what success has those players brought to Arsenal
		
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They have sold Â£120mil worth of players in the last 3 seasons so you cannot say that they have a spend of Â£30mil over 3 seasons 

Liverpool have a net spend of Â£85mil and haven't even been in the top 4 till this season


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

anotherdouble said:



			So are you saying that a club like Arsenal in plain simple terms are just a selling club. Don't want to win anything but just make money by selling players. Oh what joy the fans have got to look forward to each August. Very nice stadium, extortionate ticket prices and a top four finish
		
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no I am saying that they have had to be to finance the stadium they are no longer


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			They have sold Â£120mil worth of players in the last 3 seasons so you cannot say that they have a spend of Â£30mil over 3 seasons 

Liverpool have a net spend of Â£85mil and haven't even been in the top 4 till this season
		
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Think you are missing the point by a long way.

Net spend doesn't change the fact that you spent millions on players to get no success on the field in 9 years now. 

That lack of success is why players keep leaving 

You spent over Â£40mil on one player alone this season - has it moved you forward ? Doesn't appear so.


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## freddielong (Mar 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you are missing the point by a long way.

Net spend doesn't change the fact that you spent millions on players to get no success on the field in 9 years now. 

That lack of success is why players keep leaving 

You spent over Â£40mil on one player alone this season - has it moved you forward ? Doesn't appear so.
		
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No I think you miss the point I love Arsene Wenger I want him to manage Arsenal, I know he is getting older and one day he will want to hang up his unzippable sleeping bag coat and retire and when he does I will be very sad.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 24, 2014)

I think wenger is a brilliant attacking coach. But I think his best years were built on a strong defence he inherited. He has undoubtably changed the face of English Footy and should he leave I think he'll be sorely missed. Young players leave clubs to play for him as much as arsenal. 

I would imagine there there aren't many clubs that wouldn't settle for arsenals perceived failure in recent years. The stadium will reap benefits in the long run. And if the fair play rules ever actually work then arsenal will be in a great position.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			No I think you miss the point I love Arsene Wenger I want him to manage Arsenal, I know he is getting older and one day he will want to hang up his unzippable sleeping bag coat and retire and when he does I will be very sad.
		
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But he isn't winning you any competitions - do you not want to win anything ? Your team has the most expensive tickets by a long way yet your fans got no reward for that price.

Have you got the list of the manager jobs he has been "offered"


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## Dodger (Mar 24, 2014)

I got ridiculed on here 3 years back when I said he was vastly over hyped.

Still not won anything and let's face it the FA Cup is a sideshow nowadays but desperate times and all that......


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## anotherdouble (Mar 24, 2014)

The futures bright the futures.........Arsenal. How long can the fans live off the back of a very nice paid for stadium, over inflated ticket prices, stars that arrive play then leave because they want to win trophies, achieve 4th position in the league and be trophy less. But we have got the best manager in the world.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 24, 2014)

I thought Wenger was a good manager, making the top four every season, and getting CL football. However I think he has perhaps come to the end of the line and he needs to start winning cups. I don't think the current Arsenal side is good enough but I do think they are only a couple of top signings away from being competitive on all fronts. Whether he'll get the time or the cash is debatable now and I think if they have a poor start to next season he'll be out


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## MadAdey (Mar 24, 2014)

freddielong said:



			No I think you miss the point I love Arsene Wenger I want him to manage Arsenal, I know he is getting older and one day he will want to hang up his unzippable sleeping bag coat and retire and when he does I will be very sad.
		
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I love Wengers ways of playing football the way it should be played. Problem is at times you have just got to get down and dirty and fight one out, which Arsenal just do not seem capable of doing. IMO opinion and most other peoples, Arsenal needed to sign a striker and some who can get stuck in the middle of the park. Did they buy either? No he went and spent Â£43M on another attacking midfielder. Ozil is a great player, even though he is not having the best of seasons. 
T
he amount of Strikers that moved to top teams in the summer is incredible, I think there was about 10 or 12 strikers moving in the summer, all that would have improved Arsenal. If he did have Â£80M then why did he not try and get Cabaye or another central midfielder. 

It is OK buying a player Ozil, but if you can't win the ball back to give to him, or give him a top class striker for him to feed then it is a waste of money.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 24, 2014)

8yrs without a trophy isn't good for a top club like Arsenal, regardless of how well they do in the league.

In 16 years of being in the champions league only once they've reached the semis, the final and never usually get past the quarters. 

That's not good enough.

As much as i dislike Mourinho he's spot on about him being a champion failure!


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## sawtooth (Mar 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have spent Â£150mil in three years - what return would you expect from that ?
		
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Yes but players have been sold in the same period so the net spend is much less, probably a negative figure. Also some players have left for more money elsewhere, adebayor, flamini, song, nasri, RVP, Wenger could not (would not) match salaries of the super rich clubs.

For the record Liverpool have spent more in the last 5 years than Arsenal, what return did you see on that?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Yes but players have been sold in the same period so the net spend is much less, probably a negative figure. Also some players have left for more money elsewhere, adebayor, flamini, song, nasri, RVP, Wenger could not (would not) match salaries of the super rich clubs.

For the record Liverpool have spent more in the last 5 years than Arsenal, what return did you see on that?
		
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We have a trophy in the cabinet.

And I think it's more of a case of would not match.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have a trophy in the cabinet.

And I think it's more of a case of would not match.
		
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Would Arsenal swap that trophy for Champions league football? 
Whilst I agree they should be winning trophies I suspect the top teams would rather finish top 4 than win a league cup or FA cup. Arsenal have managed to stay in the top 4 whilst paying for a new stadium. No wonder the Arsenal
Board love Wenger.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

Boards love top 4 - Wenger calls it a trophy 

Fans love days out at Wemberlee and seeing their team raise the trophy 

One is about money - the other is glory.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boards love top 4 - Wenger calls it a trophy 

Fans love days out at Wemberlee and seeing their team raise the trophy 

One is about money - the other is glory.
		
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i think it's a close call though, I'm sure fans also like the prestige of facing European giants such as Bayern and barca too. The fact that they're isn't a massive call for his head would suggest that he still has a strong backing with the fans. 

IMO I'm sure arsenal fans would of course like a trophy or too, but I don't think they would have settled for one league cup in the last 8 years instead of any champions league football.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			i think it's a close call though, I'm sure fans also like the prestige of facing European giants such as Bayern and barca too. The fact that they're isn't a massive call for his head would suggest that he still has a strong backing with the fans. 

IMO I'm sure arsenal fans would of course like a trophy or too, but I don't think they would have settled for one league cup in the last 8 years instead of any champions league football.
		
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Arsenal aren't progressing on the pitch 

It's the same situation for them every season and it looks like we are going past them also 

Either Wenger needs to look at the glaring holes in his team or the Arsenal fans will start to want a new person in to do it ( think a great deal already think that way )


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 25, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			i think it's a close call though, I'm sure fans also like the prestige of facing European giants such as Bayern and barca too. The fact that they're isn't a massive call for his head would suggest that he still has a strong backing with the fans. 

IMO I'm sure arsenal fans would of course like a trophy or too, but I don't think they would have settled for one league cup in the last 8 years instead of any champions league football.
		
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Spot on this. Top teams need Champions league football,not only financially but also to attract the best players.
Let's be honest none of the top teams would be happy winning the league cup & finishing 5th.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Spot on this. Top teams need Champions league football,not only financially but also to attract the best players.
Let's be honest none of the top teams would be happy winning the league cup & finishing 5th.
		
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So Arsenal always get into the CL and therefore can attract the better players but still don't win anything...
They have turned into a shop rather than a Football club, all they do is produce profits - nothing wrong with that but the point of playing the game at that level is to win, not just games with an aim to finish 3rd or 4th every year, but win trophies
While the Club and the fans have this attitude that qualifying for the CL is the result of a "good season" the status quo will not change and they won't win, certainly not the PL....


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 25, 2014)

Imurg said:



			So Arsenal always get into the CL and therefore can attract the better players but still don't win anything...
They have turned into a shop rather than a Football club, all they do is produce profits - nothing wrong with that but the point of playing the game at that level is to win, not just games with an aim to finish 3rd or 4th every year, but win trophies
While the Club and the fans have this attitude that qualifying for the CL is the result of a "good season" the status quo will not change and they won't win, certainly not the PL....
		
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Sadly that is the modern game. Imagine the players they'd be signing if they weren't in the CL.


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## sawtooth (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boards love top 4 - Wenger calls it a trophy 

Fans love days out at Wemberlee and seeing their team raise the trophy 

One is about money - the other is glory.
		
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Yes but what good is winning a trophy one year but not then challenging for honours for several years or worse dropping out of the league? Not referring to Liverpool here but there are some teams that have won silverware but have struggled. Portsmouth, for an example. 

You may not agree but Wenger has been hugely successful over a the last 18 years and he has helped lay the foundation for Arsenal to compete for several years to come. Probably the only club in the black in the league and he's done it largely without massive cash injection from rich benefactors. I think some are dismissive about the financial security and stability he has brought to the club.

I don't blame rival supporters having a pop at Wenger (that's what rival supporters do ) but I think its disgraceful for so-called Arsenal supporters to start calling for his head. Thankfully they are the minority. 

Henry said it right, be careful for what you wish for.

As for Liverpool overtaking Arsenal, you might well be right. But we will have to look back in 5 or 10 years to see if that has been the case, not 1-2 seasons.


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## USER1999 (Mar 25, 2014)

just think he has taken arsenal as far as he can. He hasn't adapted to the modern game, no analysis of opposition, poor use of player stats, etc. 

Yes, he has worked miracles, but it's time to hand it over to someone younger with a new vision.

The injuries are not a mystery. He over trains players, and then won't rotate. Did Ozil need to play against Colchester?

It's the same every season. Something needs to change.


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## freddielong (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Arsenal aren't progressing on the pitch 

It's the same situation for them every season and it looks like we are going past them also 

Either Wenger needs to look at the glaring holes in his team or the Arsenal fans will start to want a new person in to do it ( think a great deal already think that way )
		
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How can you say that we have progress we have challenged for the title this season yes it was ended by injuries but we were there top4 and FA cup is better than top 4 are you going to call for B R s head as you are only top 4. 

Anyway the board see it my way the only way he will leave will be when he wants.


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## MadAdey (Mar 25, 2014)

freddielong said:



			How can you say that we have progress we have challenged for the title this season yes it was ended by injuries but we were there top4 and FA cup is better than top 4 are you going to call for B R s head as you are only top 4. 

Anyway the board see it my way the only way he will leave will be when he wants.
		
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You make some sensible posts on this subject, but you also make some ridiculous ones. 

Rogers has taken Liverpool from not even getting into the Europa league, to being in with a chance of winning the league with only a few games to go. Why the hell would anyone get rid of him for that. He is improving the squad and the first 11 and is lining up some tasty looking players for next year. But if he gets to the point that he is stagnating in a few years then it is maybe time to look for someone with new ideas. 

Like we did with Rafa, he looked to have gone as far as he could, but the board swapped him for Woy Bodgson, who took us the wrong way. Maybe you should keep Wenger, better the devil you do.........


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## bluewolf (Mar 25, 2014)

freddielong said:



			top4 and FA cup is better than top 4 .
		
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Not that you aren't favourites, but I do wish people wouldn't keep assuming that Arsenal have already won the FA Cup.. Another club did that last year, and look what happened to them... Massively disrespectful, if that's what you meant by the above statement..


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## garyinderry (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Arsenal aren't progressing on the pitch 

It's the same situation for them every season and it looks like we are going past them also 

Either Wenger needs to look at the glaring holes in his team or the Arsenal fans will start to want a new person in to do it ( think a great deal already think that way )
		
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if luis leaves you guys in the summer you will find it very hard going next season.   the boy is a legend of a footballer.  I personally think he will stay for another two seasons to see how far you progress but if he leaves it will put you in the same position arsenal have been in for donkeys years with the big spenders picking off the cream.


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## jp5 (Mar 25, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Yes but what good is winning a trophy one year but not then challenging for honours for several years or worse dropping out of the league? Not referring to Liverpool here but there are some teams that have won silverware but have struggled. Portsmouth, for an example. 

You may not agree but Wenger has been hugely successful over a the last 18 years and he has helped lay the foundation for Arsenal to compete for several years to come. Probably the only club in the black in the league and he's done it largely without massive cash injection from rich benefactors. I think some are dismissive about the financial security and stability he has brought to the club.

I don't blame rival supporters having a pop at Wenger (that's what rival supporters do ) but I think its disgraceful for so-called Arsenal supporters to start calling for his head. Thankfully they are the minority. 

Henry said it right, be careful for what you wish for.

As for Liverpool overtaking Arsenal, you might well be right. But we will have to look back in 5 or 10 years to see if that has been the case, not 1-2 seasons.
		
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So much wrong with this post! 

Wenger was hugely successful for the first 9 years of his reign. Not successful at all for the last 9 (unless you count the Virtual Trophy of 4th place which most fans don't - only the board do). And all this nonsense of finishing 4th helps Arsenal sign top players, rubbish. They sell more top players than they buy. 

I don't think it's the lack of success as much as the manner of it. Wenger is arrogant and treats the fans with disdain. Despite the fans not 'having worked half a day in football' (Wenger's words) it was clear to all that buying a striker and a big lump in midfield could put Arsenal very close to the title. Instead Wenger buys yet another small midfielder. Leaving a Ligue1 oaf up front who is not a top quality striker, with the back up being a Ligue2 injury riddled kid that resembles a baby giraffe (let's not even talk about the disgrace that is Bendter).

I love what Wenger used to represent. Teams built on defensive solidarity, midfield powerhouses and attacking flair - every player a leader. I can only assume that Wenger doesn't like his power being challenged, hence why we no longer have a Vieira, Adams, Campbell, Lehmann, Petit, Bergkamp.... 

Fortunately more and more fans are waking up and seeing that Wenger is taking the squad backwards. When Wenger does eventually leave, the team may continue to regress as that is the path it is on anyway, but I think it will be the best for the future.


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## jp5 (Mar 25, 2014)

By the way:

Arsenal results vs the top 4 over the last 5 seasons:

Played 15
Won     1
Drawn   1
Lost    13

The fact that Arsenal were top a few weeks ago was an illusion of the fixture list. Ultimately Wenger has lost it tactically and the team won't genuinely challenge for the title until he is gone, as much as it pains me to say it.


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## MadAdey (Mar 25, 2014)

The impression I get is that a lot of Arsenal supporters are nearly as arrogant as their manager. Wenger insists that his way is the best and the supporters believe him. When Wenger had success he a solid backbone to his team, with Viera pulling the strings stopping other teams from dominating the midfield. He also had a solid CB in Adams, a top keeper in Seaman and probably the best CF in the world with Henry. 

What does he have now? The BFG, Flamini and Giroud, not even in the same league as his title winning teams. I have nothing against Wenger or Arsenal, I am just expressing an opinion as a football fan.


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## fundy (Mar 25, 2014)

why do Liverpool fans care so much about other clubs managers?


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## MadAdey (Mar 25, 2014)

fundy said:



			why do Liverpool fans care so much about other clubs managers?
		
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It's just good old fashioned football debate.....


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## sawtooth (Mar 25, 2014)

jp5 said:



			So much wrong with this post! 

Not successful at all for the last 9 (unless you count the Virtual Trophy of 4th place which most fans don't - only the board do).  *YES IT DOES COUNT* And all this nonsense of finishing 4th helps Arsenal sign top players, rubbish. *Who said that? I happen to think some players use this as an excuse to manufacture a move to get more money* They sell more top players than they buy. *Yes, why keep a player if they're unhappy with the money that we are prepared to pay them?*

I don't think it's the lack of success as much as the manner of it. Wenger is arrogant and treats the fans with disdain. Despite the fans not 'having worked half a day in football' (Wenger's words) it was clear to all that buying a striker and a big lump in midfield could put Arsenal very close to the title. Instead Wenger buys yet another small midfielder. Leaving a Ligue1 oaf up front who is not a top quality striker, *is he really that bad? scored more PL goals than RVP this season*with the back up being a Ligue2 injury riddled kid that resembles a baby giraffe (let's not even talk about the disgrace that is Bendter).*Out of contract at the end of the season...he will be leaving*

I love what Wenger used to represent. Teams built on defensive solidarity, midfield powerhouses and attacking flair - every player a leader. I can only assume that Wenger doesn't like his power being challenged, hence why we no longer have a Vieira, Adams, Campbell, Lehmann, Petit, Bergkamp.... *We would have but times have changed, in the past 10 years where Wenger has made sacrifices Arsenal have not been able to attract or in a lot of cases retain talent - Do you really need me to list the players? I think we all know who they are. They are the Campbell, Vieras, Petits, Bergkamp types that you are talking about. Money talks and Wenger could not compete properly with the super rich clubs. Hopefully we are entering a new period where cash will be more freely available. Starting with the big money signing of Ozil , others will follow but he still wont spend for spending sake, that has never been the Wenger way *

Fortunately more and more fans are waking up and seeing that Wenger is taking the squad backwards. When Wenger does eventually leave, the team may continue to regress as that is the path it is on anyway, but I think it will be the best for the future.
		
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 *I don't agree*


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## jp5 (Mar 25, 2014)

sawtooth said:



*I don't agree*

Click to expand...

I didn't expect you would ;-)

The players that left Arsenal have stated they left to win trophies. Henry, Fabregas, van Persie. And they've done exactly that.

You quoted Henry ealier saying that Arsenal fans should be careful what they wish for. Well Henry wished for a change and went and won more trophies! It seems absolutely hypocritical that he should be casting judgement, given that he had lost faith in Wenger.

Most insulting of all is the trout that comes out of Wenger's mouth. That "this is the best squad of players" he has ever worked with. How can anyone believe that?! That he missed the post-Chelsea interview as the "team bus was leaving early". It's an insult to the club that pay his Â£7m/year wages.

As soon as Arsenal move forward with a new man in charge, the better as far as I am concerned.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2014)

Swansea sticking it to Wenger now :rofl:


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## freddielong (Mar 25, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			The impression I get is that a lot of Arsenal supporters are nearly as arrogant as their manager. Wenger insists that his way is the best and the supporters believe him. When Wenger had success he a solid backbone to his team, with Viera pulling the strings stopping other teams from dominating the midfield. He also had a solid CB in Adams, a top keeper in Seaman and probably the best CF in the world with Henry. 

What does he have now? The BFG, Flamini and Giroud, not even in the same league as his title winning teams. I have nothing against Wenger or Arsenal, I am just expressing an opinion as a football fan.
		
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What a sad world we live in if having faith and believing in someone makes you arrogant especially when someone else who has no connection to the person or club can say you are wrong without any hint of arrogance.
Arsenal have been operating under massive constraints in a time when two Sugar daddy clubs have emerged and spent more than anyone thought possible. I donâ€™t believe that during the last 8 /9 years trophies were the priority I believe that the priority was to elevate the club from a smallish club in London who donâ€™t forget used to finish outside the top five on a regular basis and even outside the top 10, into a club that can stand chin up next to the European elite.  The first stage of that is the stadium and the club is now emerging out of the financial shadow  caused by the build which cost more and took longer to get under control due to the recession and the fall in the housing market.

From next season we will receive the money from Puma Â£150 mil the new contract with the emirates kicks in as well as hopefully the additional money from BT Â£50mil
I think that given that Wenger has given his career to build the platform Arsenal are now one he deserves to be the one to take the first steps forward from it.


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## anotherdouble (Mar 25, 2014)

Whilst I except what Arsenal have achieved in the early years arsenal fans are now constantly relying on the same excuse now of money money money. Liverpool, Wigan, Portsmouth, millwall, Stoke, Cardiff west ham have all got to the FACup final since Arsenal were last there. Arsenal have got to 2 league cup finals Losing them both since 1994 and look at the poor clubs that have won the competition. Money does not come into it when you think of the playes that Arsenal have had in these barren years. I have never known a rebuild go on for so long. It should have appeared on Grand Designs


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

Freddie - do you have that list of manager jobs that have been "offered" to Wenger yet ?


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## freddielong (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Freddie - do you have that list of manager jobs that have been "offered" to Wenger yet ?
		
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Do you have any mirrors in your house ?

Do you find it hard to leave the house without arguing with them ?

I know from interviews with Peter Hill Wood and other senior board members at Arsenal that Arsene has been approached by Real, Barca, PSG, the French football federation and Man City to name a few


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Do you have any mirrors in your house ?

Do you find it hard to leave the house without arguing with them ?

I know from interviews with Peter Hill Wood and other senior board members at Arsenal that Arsene has been approached by Real, Barca, PSG, the French football federation and Man City to name a few
		
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Arguing ? It's just a question asking you to clarify a statement you made yesterday about Wenger. 


You said he has been "offered the managers role at every major team in club football" 

So I'm just asking you to clarify that and maybe provide the evidence to back it up ?


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## anotherdouble (Mar 25, 2014)

And he turned them all down because his idea of success is obtaining 4th year in year out and he realised that other clubs fans would not accept that the way Arsenal fans do.


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## jp5 (Mar 25, 2014)

anotherdouble said:



			And he turned them all down because his idea of success is obtaining 4th year in year out and he realised that other clubs fans would not accept that the way Arsenal fans do.
		
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Too right! It's laughable to think that Wenger would have lasted more than a season at Madrid. He stays at Arsenal as he knows the board and fans will put up with the virtual trophy of fourth place, collecting Â£7m/year for the privilege.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2014)

A draw today and it's very possible that they could be caught by Spurs or even Everton 

They could easily finish with no trophies again and out of the top 4


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## MadAdey (Mar 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A draw today and it's very possible that they could be caught by Spurs or even Everton 

They could easily finish with no trophies again and out of the top 4
		
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To be honest Phil just let the gooner fans carry on with being happy with being 4th every year with no trophy to show for it.


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2014)

anotherdouble said:



			Money does not come into it when you think of the playes that Arsenal have had in these barren years. I have never known a rebuild go on for so long. It should have appeared on Grand Designs
		
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And most of those players have gone on to win many trophy's and titles since leaving


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## MegaSteve (Mar 26, 2014)

Fish said:



			And most of those players have gone on to win many trophy's and titles since leaving
		
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In the spirit of the thread... Name them ...


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			In the spirit of the thread... Name them ...
		
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http://www.sportingintelligence.com...rs-win-56-major-trophies-and-counting-130502/

that  should save some time.......


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## MegaSteve (Mar 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



http://www.sportingintelligence.com...rs-win-56-major-trophies-and-counting-130502/

that  should save some time.......
		
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The majority though appear to have remained potless...


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



http://www.sportingintelligence.com...rs-win-56-major-trophies-and-counting-130502/

that  should save some time.......
		
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Thank you, I had that bookmarked and ready but had to go out :smirk:

So, Wenger has clearly had the "tools", so all that rubbish about "operating under massive constraints in a time when two Sugar daddy clubs have emerged and spent more than anyone thought possible" and "I donâ€™t believe that during the last 8 /9 years trophies were the priority", I find laughable.

So for me, players have left Arsenal to win things, and in the main, have done so, so why couldn't Wenger win anything when he had them? OK, so some may have come and gone at different times, so why couldn't he hang on to them and sell them the dream? 

Hmm, the common denominator of the problem I think is........Wenger :smirk:


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

Fish said:



			Thank you, I had that bookmarked and ready but had to go out :smirk:

So, Wenger has clearly had the "tools", so all that rubbish about "operating under massive constraints in a time when two Sugar daddy clubs have emerged and spent more than anyone thought possible" and "I donâ€™t believe that during the last 8 /9 years trophies were the priority", I find laughable.

So for me, players have left Arsenal to win things, and in the main, have done so, so why couldn't Wenger win anything when he had them? OK, so some may have come and gone at different times, so why couldn't he hang on to them and sell them the dream? 

Hmm, the common denominator of the problem I think is........Wenger :smirk:
		
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I don't like this idea of him operating on a shoe string either. Or him unearthing gems. They spend more than anyone else on youth players and discard anyone who doesn't make it!


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			To be honest Phil just let the gooner fans carry on with being happy with being 4th every year with no trophy to show for it.
		
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Who's happy being fourth? I think the majority of sane Arsenal fans find finishing fourth each year no more of an 'achievement' than surviving relegation.

The problem is Wenger through and through. Tactically he is awful. He always, always, always brings off attacking players for defensive ones if Arsenal have a tight lead. Then (surprisingly) Arsenal invite pressure on themselves and the opposition inevitably ends up nicking an equaliser / winner. Arsenal ended up with three defensive midfielders last night and were lucky not to lose the game in the end!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 26, 2014)

Fish said:



			So for me, players have left Arsenal to win things, and in the main, have done so,
		
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Figures in the quoted article don't support that though... 66% have gone on to win sweet FA...


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't like this idea of him operating on a shoe string either. Or him unearthing gems. They spend more than anyone else on youth players and discard anyone who doesn't make it!
		
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It's an illusion. Thankfully more and more fans, and the bum-licking press, are opening their eyes and viewing it from an objective stance instead.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			Figures in the quoted article don't support that though... 66% have gone on to win sweet FA...
		
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How many of that 66% were proper squad players. I would suggest the % of players sold for a proper fee winning things is a lot higher. Not including all the youth players wenger stakes from youth set ups and then discards after 2 years.


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			Figures in the quoted article don't support that though... 66% have gone on to win sweet FA...
		
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Compared to 100% of players who have stayed at Arsenal and won FA!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 26, 2014)

I find it difficult to openly criticise a man who's 'leadership' has brought a good deal of success to a club I have supported since I can remember... Of those on the 'departure list' only about half a dozen have I been saddened by their leaving... And one, in truth, left mostly for personal reasons rather than footballing ones...

Like I alluded to earlier there are many clubs who aspire to Arsenal's 'lack of success'...


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## cookelad (Mar 26, 2014)

At the moment I wouldn't put us favourites for 4th in the league, what a difference a couple of month can make! 

Finishing 5th might be the kick up the Arsenal the board with or without Wenger need to get the multiple padlocks off the war-chest Wenger's been sitting on, problem for me has been the a combination of the fact that Wenger and the board see Champions League qualification as a trophy and that we've managed to scrape our way in it the last few years! Don't get me wrong I'd prefer to be in The Champions League than not be in it, but could we at least put up a fight for winning something? I'm sure every United fan felt sick to the core when the "AGUERRRROOOOOO" moment happened but at least you were in the fight - Right now I'd take that in a heartbeat, obviously I'd prefer to win it but compared to the last few years of taking 4th place while being a mile off the pace... 

To clarify I don't want Wenger out but I think the next 15 months could be the most important to how he's remembered at the club!


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

cookelad said:



			To clarify I don't want Wenger out but I think the next 15 months could be the most important to how he's remembered at the club!
		
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It's been the same old every year for the past at least 5 seasons though. In that time the team has got worse. The next 15 months won't be any better than the last 15. Wenger's had the money before and not spent it. He's finished as a manager. Hard to accept, but the truth.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			I find it difficult to openly criticise a man who's 'leadership' has brought a good deal of success to a club I have supported since I can remember... Of those on the 'departure list' only about half a dozen have I been saddened by their leaving... And one, in truth, left mostly for personal reasons rather than footballing ones...

Like I alluded to earlier there are many clubs who aspire to Arsenal's 'lack of success'...
		
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Your final point is true, but whilst they would settle for that failure, I'm not sure it would still be categorised as success. If Liverpool win nothing for the next 8 years but finish 4th every season then that could be deemed as a stepping stone of progression. But to go from invincibles to this has got to be seen as failure surely? 

I respect what wenger has done in the game, just think his time is up. If arsenal want to progress as a team. As a business maybe they'd rather keep him.


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## cookelad (Mar 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			It's been the same old every year for the past at least 5 seasons though. In that time the team has got worse. The next 15 months won't be any better than the last 15. Wenger's had the money before and not spent it. He's finished as a manager. Hard to accept, but the truth.
		
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And if he doesn't start to turn it around that's how his term will be remembered, if however now that he's lost the ability to use the "paying off the stadium" excuse they've been using the past 5+ years, he actually buys what Arsenal need, an Adams, a Vieira and an Henry (he's already potentially got the Bergkamp), then he'll be remembered as the manager who steered Arsenal through a stadium build without dropping out of the CL then brought them back to former glories when "finances allowed". 

If nothing else it could prove whether we've been lied to the last few years or not!


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## USER1999 (Mar 26, 2014)

But he could have bought those replacement players in any of the last 4 transfer Windows. He didn't, and I have no faith in him to do so.


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## cookelad (Mar 26, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			But he could have bought those replacement players in any of the last 4 transfer Windows. He didn't, and I have no faith in him to do so.
		
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Honestly, neither do I, I just still hope/want to be proved wrong!


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

cookelad said:



			And if he doesn't start to turn it around that's how his term will be remembered, if however now that he's lost the ability to use the "paying off the stadium" excuse they've been using the past 5+ years, he actually buys what Arsenal need, an Adams, a Vieira and an Henry (he's already potentially got the Bergkamp), then he'll be remembered as the manager who steered Arsenal through a stadium build without dropping out of the CL then brought them back to former glories when "finances allowed". 

If nothing else it could prove whether we've been lied to the last few years or not!
		
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Wenger will never buy another Adams/Vieira/Henry. He won't allow a big character in the team as they'll challenge his authority. He's an autocrat.

It wasn't the finances that caused Arsenal to lose a late equaliser last night. Or get drubbed 6-0 at Chelsea. Or 5-1 at Liverpool. Or 6-3 at Man City (all in the same season!) or 8-2 at Utd. It's the manager and his attitude.

The sole reason Wenger is still in charge is that he fulfils the boards objectives by finishing fourth and securing the Champions League spot and the income that comes with it. But the fans are starting to revolt against this and - as you hinted at - are becoming aware that they've been lied to for all these years.


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## cookelad (Mar 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Wenger will never buy another Adams/Vieira/Henry. He won't allow a big character in the team as they'll challenge his authority. He's an autocrat.

It wasn't the finances that caused Arsenal to lose a late equaliser last night. Or get drubbed 6-0 at Chelsea. Or 5-1 at Liverpool. Or 6-3 at Man City (all in the same season!) or 8-2 at Utd. It's the manager and his attitude.

The sole reason Wenger is still in charge is that he fulfils the boards objectives by finishing fourth and securing the Champions League spot and the income that comes with it. But the fans are starting to revolt against this and - as you hinted at - are becoming aware that they've been lied to for all these years.
		
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Not a lot I can disagree with there!

I can only repeat myself and say at least the excuse is now gone now, supposedly we have a mountain of cash in the bank, new sponsorship deals hitting the P&L next season and no stadium to pay for, maybe I've more patience than some Arsenal fans (and less than others) but for me next season is make or break for Arsene's legacy!


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## MadAdey (Mar 26, 2014)

It has been very interesting to see the point of view from the forum regarding Wenger, Arsenal fans seem to be split 50/50 on him. I started this thread as I was curious as I keep reading about disgruntled Arsenal fans and how they are loosing faith in Wenger. there are things that I like about Wenger and could never fault him for:

1) He believes that football should be played the correct way, fast passing football, not just kick and hope
2) HE refuses to let anyone be bigger than the club and sells them if they start getting unsettled
3) He will never let a club force him to pay over the odds for a player
4) He will not pay someone mega bucks just to get them to sign or to keep them

the problem I see is it is his arrogance and stubborness that is becoming his downfall.

Sometimes you need to play ugly and get stuck in
Sometimes if a player is becoming unsettled you need to sit him down and make him feel wanted, maybe give him a nice new mega buck contract
Sometime if you want the best you have got to be prepared to pay over the odds to get them.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			It has been very interesting to see the point of view from the forum regarding Wenger, Arsenal fans seem to be split 50/50 on him. I started this thread as I was curious as I keep reading about disgruntled Arsenal fans and how they are loosing faith in Wenger. there are things that I like about Wenger and could never fault him for:

1) *He believes that football should be played the correct way, fast passing football, not just kick and hope*
2) HE refuses to let anyone be bigger than the club and sells them if they start getting unsettled
3) He will never let a club force him to pay over the odds for a player
4) He will not pay someone mega bucks just to get them to sign or to keep them

the problem I see is it is his arrogance and stubborness that is becoming his downfall.

Sometimes you need to play ugly and get stuck in
Sometimes if a player is becoming unsettled you need to sit him down and make him feel wanted, maybe give him a nice new mega buck contract
Sometime if you want the best you have got to be prepared to pay over the odds to get them.
		
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Things must have changed, because when he had Viera and petite he was happy to kick people of the park and play direct balls down the wings to overmars to chase onto. 

I agree with points 2-4. Spot on.


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## PieMan (Mar 26, 2014)

As a Chelsea fan I hope he stays!

And Moyes too for that matter. All I need now over the summer is for another Man City managerial implosion like last season, and Suarez leaving Liverpool for one of the top continental sides, and I will be very happy!!


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## PieMan (Mar 26, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			3) He will never let a club force him to pay over the odds for a player
4) He will not pay someone mega bucks just to get them to sign or to keep them
		
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Er, Ozil?!!!


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

PieMan said:



			Er, Ozil?!!!
		
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Ozil is a Â£42m player in today's market. Leading assists in Europe for 2 years. 

He's a luxury player and needs a solid base to work with. Arsenals midfield has no bite. It's no surprise his form tailed off once Ramses got injured and arsenal lost more midfield battles than they won.


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## PieMan (Mar 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Ozil is a Â£42m player in today's market. Leading assists in Europe for 2 years. 

He's a luxury player and needs a solid base to work with. Arsenals midfield has no bite. It's no surprise his form tailed off once Ramses got injured and arsenal lost more midfield battles than they won.
		
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Â£42 million for a midfielder is paying way over the top, irrespective of how many assists. Don't forget that those assists were primarily for Ronaldo and Benzema, who are far superior to Giroud and whoever else plays up front for Arsenal! Yes he's a luxury player, but I think he was a panic buy from Wenger and as a result Arsenal paid over the odds for him.

Going back to Wenger, I think Arsenal need a managerial change now. He has been a brilliant manager and his approach to player development, technique and preparation (both training and matches) has been exceptional, which has shown in those successful Arsenal teams he has produced. But there appears to be a lack of something now at Arsenal.


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## MadAdey (Mar 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Things must have changed, because when he had Viera and petite he was happy to kick people of the park and play direct balls down the wings to overmars to chase onto. 

I agree with points 2-4. Spot on.
		
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Exactly! Since those players left he has won bugger all. Since that era he has decided to just buy a team full of players that can play pretty football but get pushed all over the park by other teams. I am sure in the Viera days in the games against Chelsea, Liverpool and City those results would never have happened because he would not have allowed it.


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## MadAdey (Mar 26, 2014)

PieMan said:



			As a Chelsea fan I hope he stays!

And Moyes too for that matter. All I need now over the summer is for another Man City managerial implosion like last season, and Suarez leaving Liverpool for one of the top continental sides, and I will be very happy!!
		
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As a liverpool fan I hope he stays along with Moyes. I am gutted Mourinho has returned though, I like the bloke and it pains me to say now that if Liverpool do not win I hope Chelsea do.


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## philly169 (Mar 26, 2014)

The problem is Arsene is too proud. He's spent so much time trying to build the great team that the years go on and players see no trophies and decided to leave, meaning he has to then replace and start again. 

He picks his favorite player and builds a team around them, he did this with Henry, Fabregas, Van Persie and now Jack Wilshere and what happens? They leave.. apart from cotton wool boy (Wilshere) because hes always injured after one game.

He has done a lot of brilliant work for Arsenal and moved us forward over the years, especially with the financials and the stadium, we were never a team to spend millions on one player and would build from youth. Sadly in todays game if you want a great player you have to pay for them and thats whats happened with Ozil.

This season, he knew we needed a striker to help Giroud (not sure why he wont put podolski up there) so he signed almost retired and became a postman, Sanogo. We have a decent start and we get to January.. Giroud is tired, as is Ozil and other players.. but he hasn't signed anyone to fit the gaps, no-one of any quality. He leaves it late in Jan and signs Kallstrom.. whose injured. Now other players are injured and other fatigued.

He tries to train players into new positions because it worked with Henry. Podolski and Walcott should be strikers, Walcott has all the attributes Henry has, but no... Put him on the wing.

I'm sad to say that Arsene has given us a good 18 years, whether we've had trophies in the last 9 years or not.. But I think its time to move on. If we win the FA Cup, he can leave on a high, if we don't its time for someone else to reign.


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## MadAdey (Mar 26, 2014)

PieMan said:



			Er, Ozil?!!!
		
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I know, the first time he goes and blows a big wedge he actually does it buying the wrong player IMO


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I know, the first time he goes and blows a big wedge he actually does it buying the wrong player IMO
		
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Pires was poor for the first season with Arsenal and he didnt turn out too bad, it sometimes takes time to settle into unfamiliar surroundings. The game in England is different to some other countries and it can take some a while to adjust.

People were moaning about Mertesacker when he first came and Koscielney, they looked pedestrian and off the pace. Huh, German international with 70 odd caps and people were calling him a donkey. Yeah right.

You might have it right about Ozil but dont be too quick to judge him, lets see how he turns out next year.


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2014)

Ozil looked fine when he had people making forward runs off him (mainly Ramsey and Walcott). Since those 2 have been injured hes basically had a static Giroud in front of him and little other options. Add in he played a handful of games when carrying a knock and needing a rest and Id happily give him more time to prove himself.

Bigger issue for me is that if you look at the original successful Wenger mould, most the players were fast or strong or both. Look at the side nowadays and take out Walcott and you have no pace, and there is little strength there full stop, especially in the middle of the park.

If allowed to ask Wenger jusy one question Id want to know why he went from strong fast players to small, slower, weaker ones as his "default" player type


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## JCW (Mar 26, 2014)

He has to  learn to park the bus when playing away at these big clubs , two banks of 4 keeping it tight for 30mins or so , they have been caught simple as that and its down to him as he sets the tactics , they not that far behind the other clubs , just need to defend better and in some games away from home they need players like viera , strong players who defend well , all the great sides are built from the back and needs to take a leaf out of JM book on how to spoil , not his style but sometimes you must , he needs strong players that know how to get the job done


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## USER1999 (Mar 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			He has to  learn to park the bus when playing away at these big clubs , two banks of 4 keeping it tight for 30mins or so , they have been caught simple as that and its down to him as he sets the tactics , they not that far behind the other clubs , just need to defend better and in some games away from home they need players like viera , strong players who defend well , all the great sides are built from the back and needs to take a leaf out of JM book on how to spoil , not his style but sometimes you must , he needs strong players that know how to get the job done
		
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He is 64. He is not going to change now. That's why we need a new manager.

He also does not analyse the opposition, so never has a tactical plan.


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2014)

Not likely to see one of these then for a while in Arsenal colours :smirk:




Its a custom painted TaylorMadeGolf r11 to commemorate Aberdeen FC winning the Scottish league cup 2014!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 26, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			He is 64.
		
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Still young then ...


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## MadAdey (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Pires was poor for the first season with Arsenal and he didnt turn out too bad, it sometimes takes time to settle into unfamiliar surroundings. The game in England is different to some other countries and it can take some a while to adjust.

People were moaning about Mertesacker when he first came and Koscielney, they looked pedestrian and off the pace. Huh, German international with 70 odd caps and people were calling him a donkey. Yeah right.

You might have it right about Ozil but dont be too quick to judge him, lets see how he turns out next year.
		
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I am not questioning the ability of Ozil, far from it. What I meant was surely a midfield general would have been more important than other attacking option.


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

Wenger needs this, Wenger needs that. Its easy being a PL manager isn't it? We have all the answers its so simple, Wenger must be an idiot, and I'm a bigger fool for not seeing it.

The next man in is going to do soooo much better than Wenger he will probably win everything in sight right?. Whoever it is, he will also qualify Arsenal for the CL every year (that's not difficult clearly),  but that wont be enough we expect to win it and the PL to boot.  Liverpool , City, United , Chelsea and the other 15 clubs wont stand a chance:whoo:

Yes I see it now I'm with you Wenger out , Wenger out:rant:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

Well the next man might well do things differently - employ different tactics and purchase different players. Someone like Klopp would be very good - good footballing tactics with a bit of steel in the middle.

Arsenal have some glaring holes - up front they need another prolific striker and in the middle they need a ball winner , someone who will play a bit dirty. 

Liverpool also have glaring holes - at the back in the middle and also a ball winner 

Chelsea have glaring hole - a striker 

City need a CB 

The difference between the teams at the moment is Liverpool have two of best strikers in the league and prob the third best player in the world covering up those holes with a lot of goals

Chelsea have some talented wide players and strong middle 

City have quality everywhere

Arsenal are struggling up front to score and at the back to stop the goals - their holes aren't being covered up by some outstanding players

If Wenger addressed those obvious holes then the difference could be quite interesting - might actually challenge all the way through to May instead of dropping off ever season around March


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2014)

Didn't I just hear on SSNews that they have to concentrate on holding on to 4th place rather than winning the league...?

Kinda defeatist when they're not that far behind...'


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone like Klopp *might* be very good -
		
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Hear me out for a second, what if Klopp did come to Arsenal. Is it possible that he might not bring success to Arsenal? Is it also possible that he could not even qualify Arsenal for the champions league? Forget how crazy that may sound but are these possible outcomes?


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Hear me out for a second, what if Klopp did come to Arsenal. Is it possible that he might not bring success to Arsenal? Is it also possible that he could not even qualify Arsenal for the champions league? Forget how crazy that may sound but are these possible outcomes?
		
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What I find interesting in the link below is this

_The Gunners are considering implementing a director of football when the managerial change does eventually happen, signifying a massive shift in the club's ethos. Wenger currently has final say on all footballing decisions, but that could change for his successor when he leaves the managerial spot._

Is this saying Wenger will go upstairs and STILL have the final word, if so, who would want to come?

http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/scott.s...ptions-if-arsene-wenger-doesn-t-sign-new-deal


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Hear me out for a second, what if Klopp did come to Arsenal. Is it possible that he might not bring success to Arsenal? Is it also possible that he could not even qualify Arsenal for the champions league? Forget how crazy that may sound but are these possible outcomes?
		
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Yes they are possibles - there is never any definites in football - no guarantees.

But his track record suggests that he has a very good chance of succeeding at clubs. 

Do you continue along with Wenger and no success ( as per the last 8/9 seasons ) or do you look to change it and possibly being success. 

Your fans pay more to watch football than anyone in the country - possibly anyone in Europe - yet they get no success currently. If I was paying the prices Arsenal fans pay then I would certainly demand a great deal more.


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes they are possibles - there is never any definites in football - no guarantees.

But his track record suggests that he has a very good chance of succeeding at clubs. 

Do you continue along with Wenger and no success ( as per the last 8/9 seasons ) or do you look to change it and possibly being success. 

Your fans pay more to watch football than anyone in the country - possibly anyone in Europe - yet they get no success currently. If I was paying the prices Arsenal fans pay then I would certainly demand a great deal more.
		
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At the start of the season the club has targets, one of them being CL qualification. Objective met = success, albeit partial success as the other targets are all missed. Not mega success but certainly some success.

So Arsenal should sack a manager that has been very successful in the first 9 years, but only moderately successful in the past 9 years?  

If it were you, would you seriously sack a (somewhat) successful manager and replace him with someone else knowing full well that it could go very wrong. You agreed , Klopp could be a failure. Its bad enough having to swap a good manager when you need to (look at Man United) why would you do that by choice?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			At the start of the season the club has targets, one of them being CL qualification. Objective met = success, albeit partial success as the other targets are all missed. Not mega success but certainly some success.

So Arsenal should sack a manager that has been very successful in the first 9 years, but only moderately successful in the past 9 years?  

If it were you, would you seriously sack a (somewhat) successful manager and replace him with an someone else knowing full well that it could go very wrong. You agreed , Klopp could be a failure. Its bad enough having to swap a good manager when you need to (look at Man United) why would you do that by choice?
		
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Yes I would replace Wenger with Klopp - I do think Wengers time is up at Arsenal and things need to change

Wenger hasn't been able to move the team forward enough in the last 8/9 seasons. 

Time for a change i believe

Being a Liverpool fan I'm actually happy they keep him because I believe he won't change and Arsenal will continue too fall short. 

If you're happy with just top 4 every season then you're happy with Wenger - if you want more - then a change is needed.


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			At the start of the season the club has targets, one of them being CL qualification. Objective met = success, albeit partial success as the other targets are all missed. Not mega success but certainly some success.

So Arsenal should sack a manager that has been very successful in the first 9 years, but only moderately successful in the past 9 years?  

If it were you, would you seriously sack a (somewhat) successful manager and replace him with someone else knowing full well that it could go very wrong. You agreed , Klopp could be a failure. Its bad enough having to swap a good manager when you need to (look at Man United) why would you do that by choice?
		
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No no no no! 

Champions League qualification should be a byproduct of an attempt at winning the league. There is nothing successful about qualifying for a competition that Arsenal have no chance of winning. The board may see it as success (for financial reasons), as you may do for some strange reason, but the majority of Arsenal fans don't.

I believe that whoever comes in after Wenger may struggle. Purely because Wenger has construed a team of small, technical yet indirect players, with many of them on over inflated wages. But for the long time health of the club the sooner a new manager comes in (and dispels this myth that finishing 4th is an achievement).


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I would replace Wenger with Klopp - I do think Wengers time is up at Arsenal and things need to change

Wenger hasn't been able to move the team forward enough in the last 8/9 seasons. 

Time for a change i believe

Being a Liverpool fan I'm actually happy they keep him because I believe he won't change and Arsenal will continue too fall short. 

If you're happy with just top 4 every season then you're happy with Wenger - if you want more - then a change is needed.
		
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If you were accountable for your decision ( like the chairman of Arsenal) I don't think you would really sack Wenger for Klopp right now it wouldn't make sense. The risk is huge and there is nowhere near enough justification IMO.

Yes of course I want Wenger to have more success like in the earlier years but I still think he is the man for the job. Time will tell.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			If you were accountable for your decision ( like the chairman of Arsenal) I don't think you would really sack Wenger for Klopp right now it wouldn't make sense. The risk is huge and there is nowhere near enough justification IMO.

Yes of course I want Wenger to have more success like in the earlier years but I still think he is the man for the job. Time will tell.
		
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Time will tell ?! It's been 9 years now ! How much more time do you need to tell you that it always a case of falling short

In that period Klopp has taken Dortmund to three Bundasliga titles , CL final and into the quarters ( so far of the best CL ) - using half the money Wenger has. 

If you really think it doesn't make sense to bring in a manager who has a track record of success in recent years and there is no justification you will never see anyone being able to replace Wenger. 

And you will continue to fall short.

I would replace Wenger with Klopp in the summer regardless of what happens in the FA Cup


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			No no no no! 

 There is nothing successful about qualifying for a competition that Arsenal have no chance of winning. .
		
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Its all relative I suppose. Ask Spurs, Everton, Newcastle or other large clubs if the CL qualification is a measure of success. Besides Â£55M tells me you are wrong and I happen to enjoy my Wednesday night watching Arsenal compete with some of the best clubs in Europe. We haven't won it but its still great being there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Its all relative I suppose. Ask Spurs, Everton, Newcastle or other large clubs if the CL qualification is a measure of success. Besides Â£55M tells me you are wrong and I happen to enjoy my Wednesday night watching Arsenal compete with some of the best clubs in Europe. We haven't won it but its still great being there.
		
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Spurs , Everton etc don't charge thousands for a season ticket and hundreds for one ticket in the CL

Do you not want more than just being a part of it ?! Don't you actually want to challenge for the trophy ?


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## cookelad (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Its all relative I suppose. Ask Spurs, Everton, Newcastle or other large clubs if the CL qualification is a measure of success. Besides Â£55M tells me you are wrong and I happen to enjoy my Wednesday night watching Arsenal compete with some of the best clubs in Europe. We haven't won it but its still great being there.
		
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Go back to the FA cup final 2005 and imagine you were told that's the last trophy Arsenal would win for 9 or more (I'll say it before someone else does) years but it's ok they'll qualify for the Champions League every year, sometimes without threatening the top spot would you have been happy with that news?


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## PieMan (Mar 26, 2014)

cookelad said:



			Go back to the FA cup final 2005 and imagine you were told that's the last trophy Arsenal would win for 9 or more (I'll say it before someone else does) years but it's ok they'll qualify for the Champions League every year, sometimes without threatening the top spot would you have been happy with that news?
		
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As a Chelsea fan - absolutely!!!

Now can someone please tell me the same about Man Utd and the Premiership last year? And more importantly, Man City and the League Cup this year?!!!


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## MadAdey (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Its all relative I suppose. Ask Spurs, Everton, Newcastle or other large clubs if the CL qualification is a measure of success.
		
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Using those clubs is not a good example. To a club that can't get CL qualification of course it would be great seasons work if they did. But for a team that is always in there to just say that there aim for the season is to keep hold of it is too negative for me.

What is the plan at Arsenal for the next few years. I know Rodgers has set out a long term Business plan at Liverpool. That involves eventually getting in there challenging for the Premier League and the CL in the next 5 years. Ambitious, maybe, but you have to a target to aim for or you will just stagnate and accept that fighting for 4th place every year is what a successful season is.


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			To a club that can't get CL qualification of course it would be great seasons work.
.
		
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But why cant they? Qualification is easy right? Not much of an achievement? Not success? 

....or perhaps it isn't that easy and it does deserve recognition?.:mmm:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			But why cant they? Qualification is easy right? Not much of an achievement? Not success? 

....or perhaps it isn't that easy and it does deserve recognition?.:mmm:
		
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Is that the limit of your clubs ambition though ? Surely you want more , 9 years so far with nothing more


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Its all relative I suppose. Ask Spurs, Everton, Newcastle or other large clubs if the CL qualification is a measure of success. Besides Â£55M tells me you are wrong and I happen to enjoy my Wednesday night watching Arsenal compete with some of the best clubs in Europe. We haven't won it but its still great being there.
		
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You're comparing clubs of different statures! Arsenal are clearly a bigger club in terms of honours, revenues, supporter base, whatever you want to look at. Of course CL qualification would be great for those teams, but not so much for Arsenal.

It looks like you've succumb to the propaganda fed out by the board to keep the fans happy whilst the club has morphed into a profit making business.


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## MadAdey (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that the limit of your clubs ambition though ? Surely you want more , 9 years so far with nothing more
		
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That is the bit that I do not understand. You go from either winning or coming runner-up in the league and getting to the CL final to a team that is happy to fight it out with Spurs and Everton for 4th place. If that is the ambition level at Arsenal and what the fans expect then Wenger will stay in his job because he is delivering exactly what everyone wants.

The Premier League is probably the toughest of all the big leagues in Europe to get a CL spot in, no where else has this many teams that can get into the top 4 every year. So it is not a failed season to finish in 4th and only qualify for the CL, but for that to be the ambition for the season is hard to believe. I bet Wenger does not sit there in August aiming to finish 4th, even though he normally is by March.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

Ok Arsenal have under achieved of late in the hunt for silverware,but Spurs,Liverpool,Everton,Newcastle.... Haven't exactly been filling up their trophy cabinets either.At least Arsenal have been consistent in finishing in a respectable league position.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

We have massively under achieved as have the other clubs

But Newcastle , Everton and Spurs aren't comparable to Arsenal 

We are though


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			You're comparing clubs of different statures! Arsenal are clearly a bigger club in terms of honours, revenues, supporter base, whatever you want to look at. Of course CL qualification would be great for those teams, but not so much for Arsenal.

It looks like you've succumb to the propaganda fed out by the board to keep the fans happy whilst the club has morphed into a profit making business.
		
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Yes but Wenger is partly responsible for making Arsenal a bigger club, adding honours, increasing revenues (huge contribution). So for that he deserves enormous credit.  And Arsenal has not only morphed into a very profitable business but it has undergone a huge makeover in terms of the new stadium (x2 capacity) and training ground and at the same time qualifying for CL year on year. Again enormous credit to Wenger.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Yes but Wenger is partly responsible for making Arsenal a bigger club, adding honours, increasing revenues (huge contribution). So for that he deserves enormous credit.  And Arsenal has not only morphed into a very profitable business but it has undergone a huge makeover in terms of the new stadium (x2 capacity) and training ground and at the same time qualifying for CL year on year. Again enormous credit to Wenger.
		
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Yep he does deserve credit for what he achieved - no one has ever denied that 

Yep it's a better business now and getting lots of profits from fans paying massive prices

Is that what Arsenal fans want - profitable business 

What about success in terms of trophies and actually looking like winning big trophies ( or any trophy ) 

What is your ambition for Arsenal ? Top 4 or more


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But Newcastle , Everton and Spurs aren't comparable to Arsenal
		
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That is quite possibly the best complement you could ever pay Wenger. 

How would you compare those clubs to Arsenal back in 1996, before Wenger took over?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			That is quite possibly the best complement you could ever pay Wenger. 

How would you compare those clubs to Arsenal back in 1996, before Wenger took over?
		
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Well before that they still weren't comparable to Arsenal. 

Arsenal were challenging for titles and trophies - those clubs were challenging to stay in the league at times.

Arsenal were still a big club before Wenger took over


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

Spurs spent Â£100m before the season,surely that should be enough to challenge. Liverpool final league position for past few seasons 7,8,6,7,2 & will probably finish this season without silverware. Don't get too carried away yeah :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Spurs spent Â£100m before the season,surely that should be enough to challenge. Liverpool final league position for past few seasons 7,8,6,7,2 & will probably finish this season without silverware. Don't get too carried away yeah :thup:
		
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Carried away with what exactly 

And what does that have to do with the comparable size ( finances, success etc ) of football clubs

Arsenal along with Liverpool , UTD , City and Chelsea are the biggest clubs in the country and amongst the biggest in Europe 

Spurs, Everton and Newcastle aren't


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

Surely a club that spends Â£100m on players to add to a decent squad already should challenge size of the club is doesn't really come into it. If Norwich got took over and spent Â£200m would you not expect them to challenge??

Carried away because Maureen's tea boy as finally got Liverpool back into a respectable league position :thup:


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

cookelad said:



			Go back to the FA cup final 2005 and imagine you were told that's the last trophy Arsenal would win for 9 or more (I'll say it before someone else does) years but it's ok they'll qualify for the Champions League every year, sometimes without threatening the top spot would you have been happy with that news?
		
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Quite possibly not, but if you went back to 1996 and asked me if I would be happy with this return after the next 18 years I would be extremely happy (I still am). 

FA Premier League: 1997â€“98, 2001â€“02, 2003â€“04
FA Cup: 1997â€“98, 2001â€“02, 2002â€“03, 2004â€“05
FA Community Shield: 1998, 1999, 2002, 2004

And qualification for the CL every year.

New stadium

Increased revenues

Invincibles

Treated to attractive football

Seen some of the best footballers ever to grace the premiership playing for us (thank you for Viera, Henry, Bergkamp, Ljunberg, Pires, etc, etc, etc)

Finishing above Spurs

Not too mention the memories that will be with us long after Wenger has left.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Quite possibly not, but if you went back to 1996 and asked me if I would be happy with this return after the next 18 years I would be extremely happy (I still am). 

FA Premier League: 1997â€“98, 2001â€“02, 2003â€“04
FA Cup: 1997â€“98, 2001â€“02, 2002â€“03, 2004â€“05
FA Community Shield: 1998, 1999, 2002, 2004

And qualification for the CL every year.

New stadium

Increased revenues

Invincibles

Treated to attractive football

Seen some of the best footballers ever to grace the premiership playing for us

Finishing above Spurs

Not too mention the memories that will be with us long after Wenger has left.
		
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Not too bad when you put it like that. Let's be honest winning the PL is much harder now. Obviously UTD have dominated & now you've got Chelsea & City. Is finishing behind Chelsea & City that much of a failure?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Quite possibly not, but if you went back to 1996 and asked me if I would be happy with this return after the next 18 years I would be extremely happy (I still am). 

FA Premier League: 1997â€“98, 2001â€“02, 2003â€“04
FA Cup: 1997â€“98, 2001â€“02, 2002â€“03, 2004â€“05
FA Community Shield: 1998, 1999, 2002, 2004

And qualification for the CL every year.

New stadium

Increased revenues

Invincibles

Treated to attractive football

Seen some of the best footballers ever to grace the premiership playing for us (thank you for Viera, Henry, Bergkamp, Ljunberg, Pires, etc, etc, etc)

Finishing above Spurs

Not too mention the memories that will be with us long after Wenger has left.
		
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But nothing for 9 seasons - no trophies

Yes Wenger did well in his first 9 years or so

Think he has the same amount of trophies as Graham got. 

P.S - Community Shield is never really an "honour" - it's a pre season friendly


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Surely a club that spends Â£100m on players to add to a decent squad already should challenge size of the club is doesn't really come into it. If Norwich got took over and spent Â£200m would you not expect them to challenge??

Carried away because Maureen's tea boy as finally got Liverpool back into a respectable league position :thup:
		
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Spending money guarantees nothing - especially when it's on the back of losing the player that carried them for two seasons.

And no I wouldn't expect Norwich to challenge of they spent Â£200 mil in one season.

And nobody is getting carried away with anything :thup:


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LLGUrLXAjA0
Paul Scholes doesn't look as comfortable in front of the camera as Neville,but he does make some good points regarding Arsenal IMO.


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## freddielong (Mar 26, 2014)

The most interesting thing about this is that its the Liverpool fans that are pushing most for the removal of Wenger surely they are one of the few teams that will recoup the most from Arsenals downfall due to an inept manager.

IMHO and the opinion of the majority of Arsenal fans as well as the Arsenal board Arsene is the right man for the job surely if we are all wrong then this will make you happy


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

freddielong said:



			The most interesting thing about this is that its the Liverpool fans that are pushing most for the removal of Wenger surely they are one of the few teams that will recoup the most from Arsenals downfall due to an inept manager.

IMHO and the opinion of the majority of Arsenal fans as well as the Arsenal board Arsene is the right man for the job surely if we are all wrong then this will make you happy
		
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As I said in another post - I'm happy that he continues the job of falling short 

Not sure it's a very big majority that are happy with him - could be a different story on May


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## freddielong (Mar 26, 2014)

Well accept that move on and worry about Liverpool Arsenal fans are happy get over it


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Well accept that move on and worry about Liverpool Arsenal fans are happy get over it
		
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Move on from where ? 

Get over what exactly ? 

I'm pretty sure this is just football debate between adults - if you don't like what is being sad then ignore the thread.


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## freddielong (Mar 26, 2014)

Its not though its you going on and on we give you our reasons you say were wrong but they are our reasons, we are not ever going to turn around and say you know what that Phil guy was right Arsene should go.  

I think it has been made clear that we want him to stay, I remember who Arsenal were prior to Arsene Wenger prior to Bruce Rioch George Graham and Terry Neil and I can see what he has done and is still doing for the club and I will not change my opinion any time soon.

Arsene Wenger IMHO is the man to lead Arsenal forward, the only way that will change is if Arsene chooses to leave as he is fully backed by the board. 

I am sure any questions that you have, have  been Asked and answered more than once.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Its not though its you going on and on we give you our reasons you say were wrong but they are our reasons, we are not ever going to turn around and say you know what that Phil guy was right Arsene should go.  

I think it has been made clear that we want him to stay, I remember who Arsenal were prior to Arsene Wenger prior to Bruce Rioch George Graham and Terry Neil and I can see what he has done and is still doing for the club and I will not change my opinion any time soon.

Arsene Wenger IMHO is the man to lead Arsenal forward, the only way that will change is if Arsene chooses to leave as he is fully backed by the board. 

I am sure any questions that you have, have  been Asked and answered more than once.
		
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Excellent for informing what I can and can't do on the forum - will ensure I follow your guidelines from now one 

You still haven't answered this question though 



Liverpoolphil said:



			You said he has been "offered the managers role at every major team in club football" 

So I'm just asking you to clarify that and maybe provide the evidence to back it up ?
		
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Back to sawtooth who appears actually willing to discuss things with out closing the door 

What is your ambition for Arsenal ? Do you see yourself as a trophy winning club or just as a club who gets into the top 4 and has a few games in the CL before being knocked out ? 

Do you not want to see a club of your stature and size progress further and actually challenge for the Prem ( not be out of it by Feb/March ) or progress further in the CL ( not knocked out in the last 16 ) 

It's been 9 years of the same thing now - watching Chelsea/City and UTD winning titles and CL in that period - surely you want that also and Wenger isn't giving that too you ?


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Its not though its you going on and on we give you our reasons you say were wrong but they are our reasons, we are not ever going to turn around and say you know what that Phil guy was right Arsene should go.  

I think it has been made clear that we want him to stay, I remember who Arsenal were prior to Arsene Wenger prior to Bruce Rioch George Graham and Terry Neil and I can see what he has done and is still doing for the club and I will not change my opinion any time soon.

Arsene Wenger IMHO is the man to lead Arsenal forward, the only way that will change is if Arsene chooses to leave as he is fully backed by the board. 

I am sure any questions that you have, have  been Asked and answered more than once.
		
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Your onto a looser mate. The man never gets bored. Looks like yet another thread that LP as drained the life out of.


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## freddielong (Mar 26, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Your onto a looser mate. The man never gets bored. Looks like yet another thread that LP as drained the life out of.
		
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I have seen it a few times "dog with a bone" spring to mind


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## sawtooth (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Excellent for informing what I can and can't do on the forum - will ensure I follow your guidelines from now one 

You still haven't answered this question though 




Back to sawtooth who appears actually willing to discuss things with out closing the door 

What is your ambition for Arsenal ? Do you see yourself as a trophy winning club or just as a club who gets into the top 4 and has a few games in the CL before being knocked out ? 

Do you not want to see a club of your stature and size progress further and actually challenge for the Prem ( not be out of it by Feb/March ) or progress further in the CL ( not knocked out in the last 16 ) 

It's been 9 years of the same thing now - watching Chelsea/City and UTD winning titles and CL in that period - surely you want that also and Wenger isn't giving that too you ?
		
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Without trying to sound like Wenger himself I am convinced that Arsenal will start winning trophies again. Fingers crossed we have a great opportunity in the FA Cup this year but I am taking nothing for granted. Wigan can cause another upset that's for sure. 

I believe Wenger will sign a new contract in the off season probably for another 3 years and he will definitely strengthen in the Summer. Contrary to what some may think I don't think we are a million miles away from winning the PL, the league table doesn't lie. Who knows what might have been if Ramsey and Walcott hadn't of been injured. 

When I had a Â£10 bet with Fish at the start of the season about Arsenal finishing higher than Chelsea he laughed at me and so did a few others. OK it looks like I will probably lose the bet but I had a good run for my money


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Without trying to sound like Wenger himself I am convinced that Arsenal will start winning trophies again. Fingers crossed we have a great opportunity in the FA Cup this year but I am taking nothing for granted. Wigan can cause another upset that's for sure. 

I believe Wenger will sign a new contract in the off season probably for another 3 years and he will definitely strengthen in the Summer. Contrary to what some may think I don't think we are a million miles away from winning the PL, the league table doesn't lie. Who knows what might have been if Ramsey and Walcott hadn't of been injured. 

When I had a Â£10 bet with Fish at the start of the season about Arsenal finishing higher than Chelsea he laughed at me and so did a few others. OK it looks like I will probably lose the bet but I had a good run for my money

Click to expand...

Cheers for the answers :thup:

Where do you think he needs to strengthen ? And will it be the same areas he will strengthen ? 

Someone earlier posted that he has turned the team into technically gifted team but all the players he buys appears to be small in stature and lack a bit of bite - even Mertesacker isn't a defend at all costs using his physically strength type of defender ? 

Do you think he will buy a Veira type as well as another striker ?


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			Without trying to sound like Wenger himself I am convinced that Arsenal will start winning trophies again. Fingers crossed we have a great opportunity in the FA Cup this year but I am taking nothing for granted. Wigan can cause another upset that's for sure. 

I believe Wenger will sign a new contract in the off season probably for another 3 years and he will definitely strengthen in the Summer. Contrary to what some may think I don't think we are a million miles away from winning the PL, the league table doesn't lie. Who knows what might have been if Ramsey and Walcott hadn't of been injured. 

When I had a Â£10 bet with Fish at the start of the season about Arsenal finishing higher than Chelsea he laughed at me and so did a few others. OK it looks like I will probably lose the bet but I had a good run for my money

Click to expand...

I bet a forumer(can't remember who but sure he'll remind me) that Southampton wouldn't make top 10. Looks like I'll be a dozen Z Stars out of pocket :angry:


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## keishdy (Mar 26, 2014)

Life long Arsenal fan here. I'm truly of the belief that Wenger is the right man for the club. I have watched my club struggle in terms of trophies for the past 9 years but I believe this is 100% linked with the fact that the 'Mega rich' clubs have moved in just when we required to go through a period of financial weakness (albeit temporarily) for the greater good of the clubs future both on and off the field. I see him as a man who has transformed the club from the Tuesday club days too a club from here on in will be fit to compete financially with the elite in world football. I am proud to say we are able to compete with the clubs own sound financial model now heralded around the world without the fear of a Oligarch being jailed or closing his wallet. We are a club like no other in terms of tradition and history, in different ways too many clubs and it goes to show what a contribution the man has made to the club when he will IMO be viewed as the greatest manager our club has ever seen. If we manage a FA cup win and CL qualification this year i can only seeing this team kicking on and delivering more trophies over the next 5-10 years. I can only see us adding to his 11 (i think) trophy haul off the 38 we have in our history.


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			I believe Wenger will sign a new contract in the off season probably for another 3 years and he will definitely strengthen in the Summer. *Contrary to what some may think I don't think we are a million miles away from winning the PL,* the league table doesn't lie. Who knows what might have been if Ramsey and Walcott hadn't of been injured.
		
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Hah! 

Arsenal are no where near challenging from the title. How can you say that when they've lost 6-0, 6-3, 5-1 away to the genuine title contenders?! Those aren't narrow football losses, that's a three set thrashing! Being top of the league was an illusion as result of the run of fixtures. Once Arsenal had to face Spurs, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool within a month or so, it was clear that Arsenal would drop off.



freddielong said:



			I think it has been made clear that we want him to stay, I remember who Arsenal were prior to Arsene Wenger prior to Bruce Rioch George Graham and Terry Neil and I can see what he has done and is still doing for the club and I will not change my opinion any time soon.
		
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You have your opinion but it's not one definitively shared by all Arsenal supporters. An increasing number are seeing past the Wenger facade, his tactical ineptitude, lack of man management, and truthfully the boring football that he has the team playing now. Arsenal used to be a team of power, pace and counter attack. Now, it's small technical players that may have 70% possession but all in front of the opposition.

What do all these pro-Wenger supporters have to say of his claim that this is the best squad he has ever worked with. Better than the Invincibles. Now if that statement doesn't make you think he has lost it, nothing will!


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## Dodger (Mar 26, 2014)

Did anyone here Paul Scholes last night after the Manchester Derby?

100% spot on about Wenger and Arsenal.

A million miles away from ever winning a League Title and full of players that go missing and sadly lacking in 'diggers' and tactical nous.

Has the most over rated gaffer not had the bullet yet anyway?


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Did anyone here Paul Scholes last night after the Manchester Derby?

100% spot on about Wenger and Arsenal.

A million miles away from ever winning a League Title and full of players that go missing and sadly lacking in 'diggers' and tactical nous.

Has the most over rated gaffer not had the bullet yet anyway?
		
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Everyone can see the flaws apart from the autocrat himself, and his flock of brainwashed supporters.

Another case in point - not buying a striker last summer or in January, when Arsenal only have one first team striker!

Wenger bemoans injuries but he has been *incredibly* lucky that Giroud has got this far without missing a run of games. I don't think Giroud is terrible, but he's not a top quality striker.

1998 - Wright / Bergkamp / Anelka
2002 - Henry / Bergkamp / Kanu / Wiltord
2006 - Henry / Bergkamp / Reyes / Adebayor
2010 - van Persie / Chamakh
2014 - Giroud / Sanago

So in the 8 trophyless year it's gone from 4 solid strike options to 1 sub-par option. Any Wengerites like to stand up for that?


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Everyone can see the flaws apart from the autocrat himself, and his flock of brainwashed supporters.

Another case in point - not buying a striker last summer or in January, when Arsenal only have one first team striker!

Wenger bemoans injuries but he has been *incredibly* lucky that Giroud has got this far without missing a run of games. I don't think Giroud is terrible, but he's not a top quality striker.

1998 - Wright / Bergkamp / Anelka
2002 - Henry / Bergkamp / Kanu / Wiltord
2006 - Henry / Bergkamp / Reyes / Adebayor
2010 - van Persie / Chamakh
2014 - Giroud / Sanago

So in the 8 trophyless year it's gone from 4 solid strike options to 1 sub-par option. Any Wengerites like to stand up for that?
		
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Id agree they need strikers. But I think girouds done very well. Most stikers would suffer loss of form if expected to play every minute of every game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2014)

He has done well with 13 league goals but the next best for them is Ramsey with 8 

No one has stepped up


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He has done well with 13 league goals but the next best for them is Ramsey with 8 

No one has stepped up
		
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Agreed, i Walcott is there only other goal threat but is troubled by injury too much. I also would expect as many goals from Ramsey season in. 

As all have said, they defo need a new spine.


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## JCW (Mar 27, 2014)

Win the FA Cup this year and finish 4th in the League and look to push on next year with the monkey off his back , better times ahead .................................EYG


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2014)

JCW said:



			Win the FA Cup this year and finish 4th in the League and look to push on next year with the monkey off his back , better times ahead .................................EYG
		
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Have I missed the part where Arsenal have won the Semi and the Final? I hope not as I've just forked out nearly Â£300 for the wife and kids to travel down... I'll be having serious words with that ticket office if they've sold me out of date tickets.. I had the same worries about last years Final after a load of City supporters told me they'd already won it too...


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2014)

The bench against Swansea was pathetic, and the team was pretty much the same bunch of knackered players who got gubbed by Chelsea. It'll be the same team against city, and again against Everton. There are no injured players coming back any time soon, and when they do they won't be match fit.

Wigan will have a very good chance of an upset.


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## cookelad (Mar 27, 2014)

JCW said:



			Win the FA Cup this year and finish 4th in the League and look to push on next year with the monkey off his back , better times ahead .................................EYG
		
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If what they've been telling us for the last few years is true, and Wenger can get the company chequebook out in the Summer and fill the holes in the first team (let alone the squad) and actually have a realistic chance of winning against the top 3 teams then we might just mount a title challenge and who knows give Wenger another go at finding the Holy Grail! 

15 Months to define a career! After that I don't know how many more chances can be afforded to him, as I said previously if we were finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th every year but being involved in the fight till the very end you could accept those as "good defeats" but in recent times we've been scraping 4th by the odd point over 5th and this year is now looking no different!


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## MadAdey (Mar 27, 2014)

I thin when you look at the league it is looking slightly dodgy at the minute. I do not see anything but a City win and Everton will beat Fulham, so that puts them 3 points behind with a game in hand. It just seems every year as has already been said Arsenal are emanaging to hold onto 4th by the skin of their teeth. After the weekend I expect the League to look like this:

---------------P------Pts
Chelsea-----32 -----72
Liverpool ---32 -----71
City----------30------69
Aresenal----32------63
Everton-----31------60

Obviously most of the Arsenal fans on here are backing their manager and too right they should. So I will put some questions to you.


If getting 4th place for CL qualification is the aim every year and seen to be a good season. What if they do not get it and are in the Europa league?
If you do not get CL qualification is that a failed season?
What if they just collapsed and ended up without Europe, is that a total disaster and would you then be wanting Wenger booted out?

Not trying to play the devils advocate, it is just chatting to a couple of Arsenal fans at work they are sitting either side of the fence on this. I have also read on the web about Arsenal fans getting frustrated by the lack of ambition being shown and not having won or challenged for anything for the last 8 years. 

I love football like I love golf and always enjoy a good old debate on it, more so over a pint. We all have our own opinions on other clubs, but it is always nicer to see the opinions of their own fans.


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## jp5 (Mar 27, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I thin when you look at the league it is looking slightly dodgy at the minute. I do not see anything but a City win and Everton will beat Fulham, so that puts them 3 points behind with a game in hand. It just seems every year as has already been said Arsenal are emanaging to hold onto 4th by the skin of their teeth. After the weekend I expect the League to look like this:

---------------P------Pts
Chelsea-----32 -----72
Liverpool ---32 -----71
City----------30------69
Aresenal----32------63
Everton-----31------60
		
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And I fully expect Everton to get something out of the game when Arsenal visit which could make things very interesting!




MadAdey said:




If getting 4th place for CL qualification is the aim every year and seen to be a good season. What if they do not get it and are in the Europa league?
If you do not get CL qualification is that a failed season?
What if they just collapsed and ended up without Europe, is that a total disaster and would you then be wanting Wenger booted out?


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1. 4th place isn't a good season in the eyes of most fans. 4th place is a good season for the board as it guarantees another Â£20m revenue plus gate receipts. Getting Europa League would be no worse than finishing 4th. Might even have the chance of winning it instead of another inevitable last 16 CL exit.
2. See above - if CL qualification is the only 'success', the season is a failure anyway.
3. Again, probably no bad thing. Hopefully once the board lose their precious CL revenue it might wake them up, replace the manager and get new in to actually mount a challenge on the title without the distraction of Europe.


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2014)

Most of the arsenal blogs I read reflect my own opinion, and that is that unless there are major changes at arsenal, then we will continue to stagnate under Wenger. Every thing has a sell by date, now is wengers. Thanks for everything, but time to move on. The club is in great shape, money in the bank, a nice stadium, modern practice facilities, etc. 

It just needs a new, more up to date team to lead it.

It might mean dropping back a bit, so what, if it leads to progress later. We know what Wenger brings to the game, and it's the same all the time. Would klopp be a risk? Not to me. Martinez? Maybe. What about the guy at Atletico?


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## cookelad (Mar 27, 2014)

Not every team that shifts-out/loses a long term manager who the board and fans love suffers just look at Everton!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2014)

Its all well and fair bandying around potential candidates for taking the Gunners forward but are they available to the market? Willing to move to London? etc etc For sure there's a good chance their salaries will be 'affordable' as Mr Wenger ain't cheap... I, personally would love to think Dennis would return and if he was half as good as managing as playing he'd do for me nicely... But, currently he has no real track record in management...


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2014)

Is it Frank de Boer at Ajax? He's doing ok.

Who would not want to manage arsenal? 7.5m a year, 150m in the bank, and all the rest previously mentioned.


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			Its all well and fair bandying around potential candidates for taking the Gunners forward but are they available to the market? Willing to move to London? etc etc For sure there's a good chance their salaries will be 'affordable' as Mr Wenger ain't cheap... I, personally would love to think Dennis would return and if he was half as good as managing as playing he'd do for me nicely... But, currently he has no real track record in management...
		
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Denis still won't fly, so will never be more than an assistant.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Is it Frank de Boer at Ajax? He's doing ok.

Who would not want to manage arsenal? 7.5m a year, 150m in the bank, and all the rest previously mentioned.
		
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Doing  very well at Ajax and don't think it will be long until he is at big club 

Bergkamp is his assistant


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Denis still won't fly, so will never be more than an assistant.
		
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I know... Still one of the very best if not the best to pull on an Arsenal shirt in my time...


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## MadAdey (Mar 27, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			I know... Still one of the very best if not the best to pull on an Arsenal shirt in my time...
		
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Without doubt, the man was a  genius. I will always remember that goal when someone said that he had mis controlled it, what an insult, he meant to do that. It was at Newcastle if I remember correctly.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 27, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Without doubt, the man was a  genius. I will always remember that goal when someone said that he had mis controlled it, what an insult, he meant to do that. It was at Newcastle if I remember correctly.
		
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The reverse turn? Yeah that was a beauty. My favourite was his final for a hat trick against Leicester. Made even better by the fact he recreated that summer for holland.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Without doubt, the man was a  genius. I will always remember that goal when someone said that he had mis controlled it, what an insult, he meant to do that. It was at Newcastle if I remember correctly.
		
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Think the goal for Holland against Argentina in World Cup was as special if not more because it was on such a big stage and at a crucial time as well


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## MadAdey (Mar 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think the goal for Holland against Argentina in World Cup was as special if not more because it was on such a big stage and at a crucial time as well
		
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I think the bottom line is the bloke was a genius and we were lucky to have got to watch him for all those years in the Premier League, oh yeah................. the bloke playing alongside him wasn't too bad either. that volley against United was a peach.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I think the bottom line is the bloke was a genius and we were lucky to have got to watch him for all those years in the Premier League, oh yeah................. the bloke playing alongside him wasn't too bad either. that volley against United was a peach. 

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Henry destroyed us a number of times - regularly turned Carra inside and out


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## cookelad (Apr 7, 2014)

Now looks to be the figurehead of a capitulation of Greg Norman proportions!

11 points from the last 10 league games, needs to do something and fast! I know our run-in is easier than Everton's but on current form?


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## jp5 (Apr 7, 2014)

cookelad said:



			Now looks to be the figurehead of a capitulation of Greg Norman proportions!

11 points from the last 10 league games, needs to do something and fast! I know our run-in is easier than Everton's but on current form?
		
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Top in January, had the opportunity to strengthen and didn't. Inexcusable.


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## MadAdey (Apr 7, 2014)

It is now looking like they might miss out on CL football next season if they keep going hte way they are. That will put a spanner in the works of the greater plan that I would like to think Wenger has in place. Without the income that is generated by CL football and the fact the players are more attractd to clubs that can offer it, he might have some problems in the transfer window getting some quality in. 

What happens then Arsenal fans? A few have said on this thread that qualification for the CL is a successful season, so without it then that is an unsatisfactory season. If he has problems getting in the players that he needs during the summer then they might miss out again next year. Liverpool will be strengthening the team with that extra income and the offer of CL football. Chelsea and City obviously will strengthen and I am not sure about where United will be.


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## USER1999 (Apr 7, 2014)

probably weren't going to buy any new players any way. Our injured players coming back will be like new signings, and Diaby will be fit.

I can see it now.

Tactically inept, from start to finish on Sunday. It's Wengers fault, and it's time to go.


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			It is now looking like they might miss out on CL football next season if they keep going hte way they are. That will put a spanner in the works of the greater plan that I would like to think Wenger has in place. Without the income that is generated by CL football and the fact the players are more attractd to clubs that can offer it, he might have some problems in the transfer window getting some quality in. 

What happens then Arsenal fans? A few have said on this thread that qualification for the CL is a successful season, so without it then that is an unsatisfactory season. If he has problems getting in the players that he needs during the summer then they might miss out again next year. Liverpool will be strengthening the team with that extra income and the offer of CL football. Chelsea and City obviously will strengthen and I am not sure about where United will be.
		
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murphthemog said:



			probably weren't going to buy any new players any way. Our injured players coming back will be like new signings, and Diaby will be fit.

I can see it now.

Tactically inept, from start to finish on Sunday. It's Wengers fault, and it's time to go.
		
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I wouldn't be surprised if some players don't have 'get out' clauses though if there is no CL qualification! So its not just a case of getting players in, but keeping those they've got?


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## cookelad (Apr 7, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Top in January, had the opportunity to strengthen and didn't. Inexcusable.
		
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He borrowed Kim Kallstrom - Who let's be honest could walk by me in the street wearing his full Arsenal kit (does he even have one yet?) with Kallstrom on the back and I wouldn't know who he was!

Needs results to go his way now, I doubt he'll sign the new contract now, and will hopefully win the FA Cup (not a guarantee) and get the flip outta Dodge!


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## G1BB0 (Apr 7, 2014)

Fish said:



			I wouldn't be surprised if some players don't have 'get out' clauses though if there is no CL qualification! So its not just a case of getting players in, but keeping those they've got?
		
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have they got any players worthy to deman such a clause? I doubt it, maybe Ozil & Wilshere but that will be about it. Not a bad team but for me not enough big names


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## bladeplayer (Apr 7, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			have they got any players worthy to deman such a clause? I doubt it, maybe Ozil & Wilshere but that will be about it. Not a bad team but for me not enough big names
		
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Had this debate with a gooner mate last night .... who really world class do the have cept maybe Ozil ? .. Im not having a go at Arsenal and when they play the football like they played earlier in the season they are a joy to watch , but when people stop them playing their way , it doesnt look like they have a plan B .. 

Is their something wrong with their training Regime as the do seem to suffer alot with injuries , 
how can the powers that be not see they need a goalscorer or 3 to be a top team , when UTD were dominating they had 4 quality strikers ..  it just seems as tho they reached a great place but then didnt as a club or an owner or manager or something have the drive or hunger to say right lets get in the big guns and dominate this league for years .. 

I like Arsenal but if i was a fan id be in a straight jacket , its like climbing Everest and setting up camp 5feet from the top and just staying there before its time to come down again


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## MegaSteve (Apr 7, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Tactically inept, from start to finish on Sunday.
		
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When Ramsey came on there were some glimpses of Arsenals early season form I believe...




			It's Wengers fault, and it's time to go.
		
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When this thread was started I wasn't so sure but after yesterday I tend now to agree with this view...
Still not sure though who I'd like see in his place...
Mr Wenger tenure has given me many great footballing memories...


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 7, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Have I missed the part where Arsenal have won the Semi and the Final? I hope not as I've just forked out nearly Â£300 for the wife and kids to travel down... I'll be having serious words with that ticket office if they've sold me out of date tickets.. I had the same worries about last years Final after a load of City supporters told me they'd already won it too...

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Is right, Dan - m'on the tics'.:thup: Actually, I may support the underdogs Arsenal - spirit of the cup an all that.


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