# How many will submit “Qualfying Cards”



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 6, 2021)

When they talked about the introduction of WHS a lot of the talk was about it being more reflective of your playing ability and it also allows everyone to put a card in anytime they play 

So simple question 

We will you be submitting cards in for HC outside comps or just carry on playing social golf


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## SammmeBee (Mar 6, 2021)

Just comps


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## Griffsters (Mar 6, 2021)

For me, it will be about opportunity, mood and form. If I get some sunny days and I'm feeling good I'll likely go for it a few times a year. But then again I may just want a good old chilled round of golf in those circumstances.

Great to have all this made so much easier to do under WHS


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2021)

Yes, don’t see any reason why not to.


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## upsidedown (Mar 6, 2021)

Will be submitting cards when playing on our fiddle whens it's individual and probably do some 9 hole cards with SM. 
Used to submit a card 80% of the time when in NZ and still had very enjoyable social golf


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## GG26 (Mar 6, 2021)

I submitted a couple of supplementary cards last summer when I was playing well and I may do so again, but in the main my handicap will be based on competition rounds.


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## Imurg (Mar 6, 2021)

As I'll be playing 2 or 3 times a week ,once everything has settled down, I suspect I'll play a couple of comps a month and put in at least a couple of others per month.


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## yandabrown (Mar 6, 2021)

Assuming that we get to play comps again soon (no reason to think we won't) then I will continue with the 16-20 per year, that's enough to keep my handicap realistic I think.


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## AliMc (Mar 6, 2021)

Lucky enough to still be playing up here, have submitted 8 already, 7 of my 8 counting scores are from my most recent rounds


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 6, 2021)

Imurg said:



			As I'll be playing 2 or 3 times a week ,once everything has settled down, I suspect I'll play a couple of comps a month and put in at least a couple of others per month.
		
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Pretty much this for me too I reckon.


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## USER1999 (Mar 6, 2021)

It's a no from me. Regardless of the new system, to me, my handicap is off the back tees, in a comp, with comp pins and course prep, in a field where everyone playing is in the comp.
It's not a Friday pm knock with some mates where half the field are playing hit and giggle, the greens haven't been ironed, after a couple of Peronis. Probably got mowers out also.


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## rosecott (Mar 6, 2021)

From April to October we run a 9-hole Wednesday evening roll up with a handicap adjustment system to "punish" money winners. Last year, of course, the roll up aspect disappeared with the needs of the covid restrictions on social gatherings so that names had to be inserted in advance to the BRS booking system. With WHS now in place, I took a vote on whether we should abandon the Wednesday handicap adjustments and run them as 9-hole counting competitions.

I have to say that I was surprised at the unanimous decision to run them as counting/qualifiers.


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## Captainron (Mar 6, 2021)

I’ll submit a card most weeks. Our regular Sunday gathering has no gimmes in there anyway.


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## Curls (Mar 6, 2021)

My buddy will probably want to throw a few in so if he’s in I might as well, other than that I’ve not much interest- rather play comp golf under comp conditions for something like a medal or cup. That’s what my handicap is to me. But no issue with people putting one in every day! Whatever floats your boat 👍🏻 Social rounds are just that for me, if I want to throw down another ball after a bad shot and try again it’s nice to have the option.


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## chrisd (Mar 6, 2021)

I said no because I play in almost every comp run at weekends and am quite likely to play in more vets comps when one if my regular playing mates joins the vets in July, so casual rounds are more for practice.


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## redbrownie (Mar 6, 2021)

For me it will depend on how many comps I play in. If I play in plenty of comps then social rounds will just be for practice.


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## Wabinez (Mar 6, 2021)

Yup. Don’t see any reason why you wouldn’t.


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2021)

No from me simply because in a normal year I play in 25 or more comps so there is no need.

When it will be interesting is when we a get a request for a handicap review and the player gets told they need 20 scores in their record for us to alter their handicap.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 6, 2021)

No. Social golf is different, more relaxed, a chance to experiment with no consequences. I didn't hand in supplementary cards before, out of choice, not sure why this would change now.


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## Garush34 (Mar 6, 2021)

Not joining a club this year but had I been I would probably have put in a fair few general play scores. I like the fact that you don't need to wait until comp days to put in a score, so any social rounds I would have got scores in instead would allow for far more counting rounds which would reflect my play.


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## tugglesf239 (Mar 6, 2021)

I think I would like to submit more. 

Yes it ain’t competition golf but I want to better myself and my HC

Playing with a card in hand still adds some level of pressure to me so I enjoy it tbh. 

I’m also (in my potentially deluded head) a significantly better golfer than my 14 hc suggests. It really bugs me tbh.


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## banjofred (Mar 6, 2021)

Comps and if I have a decent run going will put in some extras. Better chance of lowering my HC that way. My goals have never been to win comps, always to play as well as I have the ability to.


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## Yorkhacker (Mar 6, 2021)

I don't have a handicap at the moment so would like to think I will submit a card every time I play. I usually bottle it when put under pressure, but hopefully after the first few rounds it will become the norm and the pressure will ease


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## Curls (Mar 6, 2021)

Yorkhacker said:



			I don't have a handicap at the moment so would like to think I will submit a card every time I play. I usually bottle it when put under pressure, but hopefully after the first few rounds it will become the norm and the pressure will ease
		
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While we’re not playing you could do worse than to pick up a copy of “Zen Golf” by Joseph Parent. Some great advice in there to help you relax and enjoy the excitement of competition, rather than feeling negative pressure from it.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 6, 2021)

Once I ve been back playing for a few weeks then yes, cards will go in. No point sticking cards in at the start of playing when I haven't swung a club since before Xmas.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2021)

I’m going to be playing in many club comps, and as every rollup will be one FTP ( for the pot) and I’ll be playing in one or two rollups every week - I don’t think I’ll be needing to think about doing more.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 6, 2021)

None for me, I’m not interested in playing Stroke Play outside of comps.


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## Sats (Mar 6, 2021)

100% I will.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When they talked about the introduction of WHS a lot of the talk was about it being more reflective of your playing ability and it also allows everyone to put a card in anytime they play

So simple question

We will you be submitting cards in for HC outside comps or just carry on playing social golf
		
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Soon as my club let me and they remove the charge, which I believe is going, I will put in most rounds


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## Wilson (Mar 6, 2021)

Yes for me, I always used to submit a supplementary every time I could.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 6, 2021)

Just strikes me as people who want to go up want to out as many cards in as they can.......


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## Bigfoot (Mar 6, 2021)

I will play in as many comps as I can - now that is controlled by how many others of our group want to play in them and non comp cards will be the same. That is because we meet before the pro shop opens and will wait for it to open for comps.  Many won't want to hang on just for us to sign in unless they are like minded. Bear in mind that we haven't been able to get together to discuss it as we would have done normally. They also like to play team games - there are about 20 max turn up.

I've put up to 10 as i will be aiming to get some in.


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## srixon 1 (Mar 6, 2021)

We have a Friday swindle and we will be putting in cards through the WHS when we get back properly. When we first get to play we have already had the email to say social golf only and no swindle competitions spread over a few groups. No competitions either to start with. Like most, will just be glad to get back on the course with mates.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 6, 2021)

Plan is just to hand In score cards from competition golf, as I play on my own most the time.


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## srixon 1 (Mar 6, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Who can dictate that, and who comes up with these things?

Our normal roll ups are all ready to go, albeit with tee times pre-booked.
		
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I think the committee just want to prevent medal play so that speed of play is kept at a reasonable pace when we first get back out there. However, for all of last year our swindle was run through Whatsap and worked really well.


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## KenL (Mar 6, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Just strikes me as people who want to go up want to out as many cards in as they can.......
		
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Or come down!


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## SammmeBee (Mar 6, 2021)

KenL said:



			Or come down!
		
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Why would they want to do that if they can’t do it in a competition....


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2021)

No - usually play 2 comps a week thru the season and the odd week 3, so no need for any additional scores.


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## KenL (Mar 6, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Why would they want to do that if they can’t do it in a competition....
		
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Vanity.
I haven't heard of anyone who has gone up putting in scores under WHS.


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## KenL (Mar 6, 2021)

ger147 said:



			No - usually play 2 comps a week thru the season and the odd week 3, so no need for any additional scores.
		
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Amazing how some clubs have so many comps.


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## srixon 1 (Mar 6, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Yeah ours is via WhatsApp and they email the results and updated swindle hcaps. 
Ours is Stableford, surely they can't stop you doing that?
		
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Ours is Stableford and all done via WhatsApp. The golf club committee wouldn't even know.


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## ger147 (Mar 7, 2021)

KenL said:



			Amazing how some clubs have so many comps.
		
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Wednesday comp every week from May to September except Club Champs week and the same with Saturdays, with a few Sundays as well.


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## patricks148 (Mar 7, 2021)

if i'm playing in the Roll up and the weather is nice... IE not blowing a gale i might put some cards in. i'd imagine a few of the other guys will too


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## moogie (Mar 7, 2021)

Doubt I will need to
When season starts,  should be playing 2 comps every week
More than enough to maintain handicap and also see a true reflection


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Soon as my club let me and they remove the charge, which I believe is going, I will put in most rounds
		
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What charge? 😳


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## Imurg (Mar 7, 2021)

drive4show said:



			What charge? 😳
		
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We used to get charged a quid for a Supplementary card at the Zoo to cover.....administration


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## pauljames87 (Mar 7, 2021)

drive4show said:



			What charge? 😳
		
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Before WHS we got charged £3 per extra card

I refuse to pay that, amount cards I want to add would add £15 a month to my membership


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## banjofred (Mar 7, 2021)

Well that's a new one....I'd never heard of the clubs charging for extra cards.


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## Old Skier (Mar 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Before WHS we got charged £3 per extra card

I refuse to pay that, amount cards I want to add would add £15 a month to my membership
		
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We used to pay £1 a card but that stopped a couple of years ago as county advised that there was no justification for it and clubs could be sanctioned for the practice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2021)

The weekly Tuesday, Thursday and both Saturday roll ups will all be for the pot, as will the weekly Saturday stableford.  Never mind all the other individual comps that we run.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Before WHS we got charged £3 per extra card

I refuse to pay that, amount cards I want to add would add £15 a month to my membership
		
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Blimey 😳👎


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## 2blue (Mar 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Before WHS we got charged £3 per extra card

I refuse to pay that, amount cards I want to add would add £15 a month to my membership
		
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Yes, up to last year we were charging £3 for Supplementaries. due to the fact we have a great many opportunities for Comps. Took it off leading up to WHS to encourage folk to submit more scores. I wouldn't be surprised to see a small charge being restored.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 7, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Blimey 😳👎
		
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Yeah I think now the handicap committee is now 3 people and not 1 man it should be removed


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## rosecott (Mar 7, 2021)

Traminator said:



			The requirement has always been at least 3 people.

GP scores are now a much more common and integral part of the handicap system, there is absolutely no way any club should be charging extra for this.
		
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There are a fair number of clubs operating on proprietary/resort courses whose sole income is a percentage of competition fees. It would not seem unreasonable for there to be a small contribution to club funds for a General Play card. Club funds support the administration for all club members.


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## jim8flog (Mar 7, 2021)

KenL said:



			Amazing how some clubs have so many comps.
		
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I am just as amazed at how many clubs seem to have very few comps and seem to want to stop running them as soon as there is any sign of the weather being anything other than summer conditions.

We have comps alternate Saturdays main course and 9 hole course, 2  Sundays a month, alternate Mondays for seniors, Tuesdays Ladies and Nine hole on the short course, two Thursdays a month and two Fridays a month.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 7, 2021)

Submitted every round I played after WHS came in. Nothing to it, if you’re not happy doing it, you’re just protecting your handicap.... weird


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## USER1999 (Mar 7, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Submitted every round I played after WHS came in. Nothing to it, if you’re not happy doing it, you’re just protecting your handicap.... weird
		
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Just wrong. You haven't got a clue.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 7, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Just wrong. You haven't got a clue.
		
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No I have actually.

I’d much rather my handicap reflect my current playing ability. If you’re submitting one card every 3 weeks it’s not going to be as accurate as 3 cards a week. It’s really that simple.


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## pendodave (Mar 7, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Submitted every round I played after WHS came in. Nothing to it, if you’re not happy doing it, you’re just protecting your handicap.... weird
		
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Pretty much every round i play except comps is match play with mates. There's nothing inherently devious about it, and I suspect many golfers are like this.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 7, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Apart from the fact that there's not a single golfer on the planet who wants to hole out and keep their best possible score EVERY single time they play golf.
		
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I don’t know what the problem is? 

The only reason I wouldn’t put a card in would be if I played with a mate who isn’t another member and dicked around.

I’m not saying throw your practise rounds in... but your scorecard in hand rounds- why not?


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## USER1999 (Mar 7, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			No I have actually.

I’d much rather my handicap reflect my current playing ability. If you’re submitting one card every 3 weeks it’s not going to be as accurate as 3 cards a week. It’s really that simple.
		
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No. It's not. You are assuming either wilful handicap manipulation, or the same level of concentration as someone would put in in a competition. For some, may be many, that won't be the case. 9 times out of 10, I don't care what I score. I play hit and giggle. I bend it round trees, take on silly shots. I will continue to do this. If I put cards in, I will go up. Not because I want to, but because I play that sort of golf. 
Competitions, I play more conservatively, because they count. I don't care if I win, but I concentrate more. I will not do this for rounds outside of this. If someone on a committee says these rounds count, I will continue to play hit and giggle. I do not have any interest in playing percentage play any more than I have to.
Everyone is different, and your mistake is thinking that everyone thinks like you do.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 7, 2021)

pendodave said:



			Pretty much every round i play except comps is match play with mates. There's nothing inherently devious about it, and I suspect many golfers are like this.
		
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Is match play an acceptable card to hand in for a “social score”? - genuine question, I wouldn’t include it myself - but I don’t play it.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 7, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Apart from the fact that there's not a single golfer on the planet who wants to hole out and keep their best possible score EVERY single time they play golf.
		
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I have had quite a few seasons in the past few years where every game I have played on the course was a comp round. Needs must with a young family and time poor. It is what it is, we all don't play enough play enough golf that we can pick and choose pick and choose.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 7, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			No. It's not. You are assuming either wilful handicap manipulation, or the same level of concentration as someone would put in in a competition. For some, may be many, that won't be the case. 9 times out of 10, I don't care what I score. I play hit and giggle. I bend it round trees, take on silly shots. I will continue to do this. If I put cards in, I will go up. Not because I want to, but because I play that sort of golf.
Competitions, I play more conservatively, because they count. I don't care if I win, but I concentrate more. I will not do this for rounds outside of this. If someone on a committee says these rounds count, I will continue to play hit and giggle. I do not have any interest in playing percentage play any more than I have to.
Everyone is different, and your mistake is thinking that everyone thinks like you do.
		
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What’s  the honest difference between your competition rounds and these other rounds in score?


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## USER1999 (Mar 7, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			What’s  the honest difference between your competition rounds and these other rounds in score?
		
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Who knows? I have no idea. The point is, when I play, I don't care. I don't want to care. Sometimes it will lead to a great score, on a day when it all comes together, sometimes it will be a shocker. If the card matters, it will put a different feeling on the round, and that isn't what I play golf for. I have played for 45 years, and in general, don't give a stuff what my score is, and don't want to. That isn't golf to me.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 7, 2021)

Traminator said:



			But that's completely different from choosing to hole out and keep your best possible score in every single social round with your mates.
		
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Depends on how you view your golf I guess. Newer golfers and those that have played for 40 years or more are more likely to have different attitudes to the game. Highlight of the week for many is the 4 ball on Saturday morning where the 'banter' is more important than the golf whereas the mad keen newer and improving golfer is probably wanting to try and beat their best score.

Both playing golf so who cares who is putting a card in or not?


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## Bdill93 (Mar 7, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Who knows? I have no idea. The point is, when I play, I don't care. I don't want to care. Sometimes it will lead to a great score, on a day when it all comes together, sometimes it will be a shocker. If the card matters, it will put a different feeling on the round, and that isn't what I play golf for. I have played for 45 years, and in general, don't give a stuff what my score is, and don't want to. That isn't golf to me.
		
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Sounds like you just hate WHS 😂

If you’re not taking a scorecard - you can’t submit the score can you!


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 7, 2021)

Pre WHS I played the Wednesday Saturday and Sunday Comp and a supplementary on a Friday afternoon. 
It used to really itch my hole if the weekend was a team comp, can’t play in them, not worth my time or good shots. 
I won’t have that problem now, so yes all of my rounds will be recorded providing I can swing a club.


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## USER1999 (Mar 7, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Sounds like you just hate WHS 😂

If you’re not taking a scorecard - you can’t submit the score can you!
		
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It depends if the club thinks roll ups playing stableford should count. I hope not, as whilst I play in several, I ceased giving a stuff about winning them years ago, and it's more about having fun, rather than the score.


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## Scoobiesnax (Mar 8, 2021)

I said no.  My club has a lot of comps during the season which I enter most of them so that should be enough to get a handle on my current form and handicap capacity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

KenL said:



			Amazing how some clubs have so many comps.
		
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I can see me most weeks chucking 2 or 3 scores into my WHS pot - but maybe only 1 in 5 will I approach with a ‘competition’ mindset, and maybe max 2 or3 a month will I consider club competitions - two medal rounds and one other board comp.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It depends if the club thinks roll ups playing stableford should count. I hope not, as whilst I play in several, I ceased giving a stuff about winning them years ago, and it's more about having fun, rather than the score.
		
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My club is - but my mindset for them will be that they are simply rounds for my WHS pot and not qualifying/competition rounds.  My clubs wants us to do as much as possible to make WHS work the best for us all.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Sounds like you just hate WHS 😂

If you’re not taking a scorecard - you can’t submit the score can you!
		
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Have you ever played in the USA? I've played loads in Myrtle Beach which is a golf holiday mecca. The yanks go out with their mates, buggies loaded up with beers. They hit the ball behind trees, kick it out, pick up on greens and say 'Put me down for a 5'. After these rounds I've seen them enter the scores into the computer in the clubhouse. Don't kid yourself that entering every score gives you a true handicap.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 8, 2021)

I dont think I'll hand in many, maybe the odd one of two, but most practice rounds are, well practice... 

I dont want to be grinding every round, and i dont want to remove the competition 'feel' of organised comps.

A few of my regular playing partners are + handicappers, who are still getting mixed messages about whether they can enter general play rounds from the county... so if there not marking cards, I doubt I will.


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## DRW (Mar 8, 2021)

As someone who generally isn't bothered about playing comps(last year none, year before 3 for example).

I would probably do 10-20 cards a year if via an easy log into an app.  if it means logging in the clubhouse or pro shop still, then I will probably do none this year and let it lapse.


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## patricks148 (Mar 8, 2021)

DRW said:



			As someone who generally isn't bothered about playing comps(last year none, year before 3 for example).

I would probably do 10-20 cards a year if via an easy log into an app.  if it means logging in the clubhouse or pro shop still, then I will probably do none this year and let it lapse.
		
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The SG has an App, so you just log on (or i'm lead to belive thats what you do ) and put in a GP score when you like, don't EG have similar??

its going to be a great help to some of the old boys at ours, no more having to play in medals off the whites, which most still throught they had to, so some havn't done a card in years and handicaps not kept pace with the downward turn with old age


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 8, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			The SG has an App, so you just log on (or i'm lead to belive thats what you do ) and put in a GP score when you like, don't EG have similar??

its going to be a great help to some of the old boys at ours, no more having to play in medals off the whites, which most still throught they had to, so some havn't done a card in years and handicaps not kept pace with the downward turn with old age
		
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It depends on each club I believe. The option may well be there, whether your own club take that up is another matter. I think the idea is good by the way, I'm not anti it.


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## patricks148 (Mar 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It depends on each club I believe. The option may well be there, whether your own club take that up is another matter. I think the idea is good by the way, I'm not anti it.
		
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can't speak for other clubs but not many Sup cards have been posted since they came in not by older guys anyway, i think this will be good for some of them... well the ones who have smart phones at least... a few i know still PAYG bricks they havn't used in years


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## Bdill93 (Mar 8, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Have you ever played in the USA? I've played loads in Myrtle Beach which is a golf holiday mecca. The yanks go out with their mates, buggies loaded up with beers. They hit the ball behind trees, kick it out, pick up on greens and say 'Put me down for a 5'. After these rounds I've seen them enter the scores into the computer in the clubhouse. Don't kid yourself that entering every score gives you a true handicap.
		
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Im not doing that though  sounds like a good day out to be fair, it is a goal of mine to play some golf in the US.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 8, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			can't speak for other clubs but not many Sup cards have been posted since they came in not by older guys anyway, i think this will be good for some of them... well the ones who have smart phones at least... a few i know still PAYG bricks they havn't used in years

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The seniors at my club organise themselves via a Whatsapp group. The oldies like to play dumb at times over tech but if they really want to they can manage it, even if it means a mate doing it for them. I'm not fooled by them


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## garyinderry (Mar 8, 2021)

We have comps at least every wed, fri sat and Sunday.  

Wont be putting in anything but comp scores if I dont have to. 

I play a very different style of golf when I have a card in my hand. Without a card I'll bang driver and generally take a lot more risks.


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## jim8flog (Mar 8, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Apart from the fact that there's not a single golfer on the planet who wants to hole out and keep their best possible score EVERY single time they play golf.
		
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 Yes. It is great pity that England Golf et al decided not to adopt 'Most likely for score' for General Play rounds

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/h...re-do-i-post-when-hole-is-not-completed-.html


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## jim8flog (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Is match play an acceptable card to hand in for a “social score”? - genuine question, I wouldn’t include it myself - but I don’t play it.
		
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2.1/2 – Status of Scores Made When Match Play and Stroke Play
Formats are Played Concurrently
When a player competes in a match while also playing in a stroke play round and
both are authorized formats of play, the stroke play score is the score that should
be submitted for handicap purposes. The match play score should not be
submitted.


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## jim8flog (Mar 8, 2021)

DRW said:



			As someone who generally isn't bothered about playing comps(last year none, year before 3 for example).

I would probably do 10-20 cards a year if via an easy log into an app.  if it means logging in the clubhouse or pro shop still, then I will probably do none this year and let it lapse.
		
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Judging by our handicap list you are in the same position as probably thousands of golfers. We have nearly 100 who have not played in any comp for more than 3 years.

Your handicap only lapses if you cease to be a member of an affiliated club.

If your club has IG it is very easy to do via a phone and I know some who take the card home and do it from there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			We have comps at least every wed, fri sat and Sunday. 

Wont be putting in anything but comp scores if I dont have to.

I play a very different style of golf when I have a card in my hand. Without a card I'll bang driver and generally take a lot more risks.
		
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Likewise - and I'll take more time over the tap-in putts.  

But since I had the 'lightbulb' moment I had about treating normal/social/friendly/rollup rounds that will be recorded and might count toward my HI as nothing special, but simply yet another one for the pot - that concern about feeling I had to play every WHS counting round as a qualifier disappeared completely.  Because rounds that go into my rolling pot of 20, and so might count towards my HI, are just not the same as 'qualifiers' under the old system - and so I don't have to think of them and play them as if they are 'qualifiers' - they can still each be just a social/friendly 'knock' that I can take as seriously or as casually as I might wish on the day.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 8, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			2.1/2 – Status of Scores Made When Match Play and Stroke Play
Formats are Played Concurrently
When a player competes in a match while also playing in a stroke play round and
both are authorized formats of play, the stroke play score is the score that should
be submitted for handicap purposes. The match play score should not be
submitted.
		
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So call it match. Not a strokeplay match and you're golden....


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## Bdill93 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Likewise - and I'll take more time over the tap-in putts. 

But since I had the 'lightbulb' moment I had about treating normal/social/friendly/rollup rounds that will be recorded and might count toward my HI as nothing special, but simply yet another one for the pot - that concern about feeling I had to play every WHS counting round as a qualifier disappeared completely.  Because rounds that go into my rolling pot of 20, and so might count towards my HI, are just not the same as 'qualifiers' under the old system - and so I don't have to think of them and play them as if they are 'qualifiers' - they can still each be just a social/friendly 'knock' that I can take as seriously or as casually as I might wish on the day.
		
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God I wish everyone took that approach. Everyones so obsessed with their bad rounds - forgetting that 12 out of 20 matter not one bit at all!! I could shoot 200 and I wouldnt go up!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			God I wish everyone took that approach. Everyones so obsessed with their bad rounds - forgetting that 12 out of 20 matter not one bit at all!! I could shoot 200 and I wouldnt go up!
		
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Exactly.  My bad rounds, or those where I couldn't care less what I score, will almost never matter - and even if one did sneak somehow into my 8 then the impact will generally be small, and probably won't add 0.1 to my H/I.  It's really only the real goodies that will count - and isn't that just what we'd want and expect.  As a result I can just play my social/friendly/rollup golf with exactly the same mindset as I always have.  That the round gets flung into my pot of 20 is just neither here nor there (unless it's a goodie)


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## USER1999 (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			God I wish everyone took that approach. Everyones so obsessed with their bad rounds - forgetting that 12 out of 20 matter not one bit at all!! I could shoot 200 and I wouldnt go up!
		
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For some this will be how they view it, but not me. Why do you insist that you are right, and every one elses view is wrong or invalid.
 Every qualifying round will have equal importance to me. I will know which round will drop out, and what I have to score To get a top 8 card. I would never stand on the first tee, in a qualifying round, and think the score doesn't matter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			For some this will be how they view it, but not me. Why do you insist that you are right, and every one elses view is wrong or invalid.
Every qualifying round will have equal importance to me. I will know which round will drop out, and what I have to score To get a top 8 card. I would never stand on the first tee, in a qualifying round, and think the score doesn't matter.
		
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Because WHS counting rounds won't matter in anything like the same way as qualifiers did under the old system - you've referred to them as 'qualifying' rounds - and quite simply they are not.  They go into a pot of 20 and that's it - only if they are good will they be 'qualifiers' - and only possible qualifiers at that - in the context of the WHS H/I.  

Under the old system I stand on the 1st tee with a card in my hand I know that there is a high probability that the round will impact my handicap.  Under the new system that just isn't the case.  We can decide whether or not we want to take the round seriously or not.  Most social/rollup golf I won't be taking seriously in the context of my H/I.  My mindset will be that it is just another friendly round of golf.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 8, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			For some this will be how they view it, but not me. Why do you insist that you are right, and every one elses view is wrong or invalid.
Every qualifying round will have equal importance to me. I will know which round will drop out, and what I have to score To get a top 8 card. I would never stand on the first tee, in a qualifying round, and think the score doesn't matter.
		
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Because this is how WHS is supposed to be run.  You're just choosing to ignore all the information which argues that you're wrong. 

Frankly I dont care to keep arguing with you murph. You clearly hate WHS, have made your mind up on it and wont buy into it ever - but its WAYYY better than CONGU


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Because this is how WHS is supposed to be run.  You're just choosing to ignore all the information which argues that you're wrong.

Frankly I dont care to keep arguing with you murph. You clearly hate WHS, have made your mind up on it and wont buy into it ever - but its WAYYY better than CONGU
		
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The golf authorities in the UK have not implemented the WHS in the way you describe i.e. every round does NOT count. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

That's why they have included the option of entering a General Play score i.e. it's optional. Some will choose to do so, others will not. Neither view is "correct" or better than the alternative, it's up to the individual.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			The golf authorities in the UK have not implemented the WHS in the way you describe i.e. every round does NOT count. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

That's why they have included the option of entering a General Play score i.e. it's optional. Some will choose to do so, others will not. Neither view is "correct" or better than the alternative, it's up to the individual.
		
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My view that your handicap is most accurate by entering every card is fact - not an opinion. The more data, the better.

Ive never said you *have to* submit every round. Ive suggested you should to have the most accurate handicap and by not doing this - you are manipulating your handicap in some way - also fact.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			My view that *your handicap is most accurate by entering every card is fact* - not an opinion. The more data, the better.

Ive never said you *have to* submit every round. Ive suggested you should to have the most accurate handicap and by not doing this - *you are manipulating your handicap in some way* - also fact.
		
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Neither of the points in bold you make are facts, merely your opinion.  In exactly the same way that others hold the opinion that people who largely submit supplementary/general play scores rather than competition scores only do so because they can't make a score in a competition as they can't handle playing in competitions...


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## USER1999 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because WHS counting rounds won't matter in anything like the same way as qualifiers did under the old system - you've referred to them as 'qualifying' rounds - and quite simply they are not.  They go into a pot of 20 and that's it - only if they are good will they be 'qualifiers' - and only possible qualifiers at that - in the context of the WHS H/I. 

Under the old system I stand on the 1st tee with a card in my hand I know that there is a high probability that the round will impact my handicap.  Under the new system that just isn't the case.  We can decide whether or not we want to take the round seriously or not.  Most social/rollup golf I won't be taking seriously in the context of my H/I.  My mindset will be that it is just another friendly round of golf.
		
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Yep, that is the way you think. Others won't. Other opinions are equally valid.


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## USER1999 (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Because this is how WHS is supposed to be run.  You're just choosing to ignore all the information which argues that you're wrong.

Frankly I dont care to keep arguing with you murph. You clearly hate WHS, have made your mind up on it and wont buy into it ever - but its WAYYY better than CONGU
		
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I don't hate WHS, I think it is ill conceived, and can be manipulated just as easily. 

I also think putting more cards in does not equate to a more accurate handicap, unless you have two handicaps. One when you give a stuff, and one when you don't. 

Congu had it's flaws too, but WHS does not address them.


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## D-S (Mar 8, 2021)

When playing in comps under CONGU , as a relatively steady but unspectacular player off 5, I often found myself playing moderate golf and having to really grind over the final holes to get into the buffer zone. I was more often never in much danger of winning anything but I fought hard not to go up 0.1. In the same instance playing with my mates in a casual round, very often matchplay or Bowmaker with two or three groups playing, I have a very different mindset and I am certainly not 100% focussed on achieving my best score that day especially if we have won or lost the match early or if just getting nett par on a hole isn’t going to help the team. So I have a very different competition game from casual. Comps are hard work but I enjoy them, the rest of my golf is having fun and for that reason I won’t be pre registering for and putting in lots of ‘social score’ cards


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## Orikoru (Mar 8, 2021)

No, I think it's pointless. I plan to enter comps regularly and I'm happy for that to be what my handicap is based on. In friendly knocks we have quite generous gimmes, drop when you're out of bounds, giving up on holes you maybe could have scored on but can't be bothered - all usual things you have on a relaxed round, and I personally don't think a handicap should be based off rounds like that.


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## Golfnut1957 (Mar 8, 2021)

When we play in comps the chatter is minimal, and it becomes progressively quieter as the round goes on. If someone has a decent round going they generally retreat into a bubble and are left alone.

When our fourball meet we generally play a four-handed match play, if someone goes up, he's now playing the other three. The barracking in this friendly format is outrageous. I won't want the introduction of a card to spoil the enjoyment we get from this social interaction.


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## Imurg (Mar 8, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			No, I think it's pointless. I plan to enter comps regularly and I'm happy for that to be what my handicap is based on. In friendly knocks we have quite generous gimmes, drop when you're out of bounds, giving up on holes you maybe could have scored on but can't be bothered - all usual things you have on a relaxed round, and I personally don't think a handicap should be based off rounds like that.
		
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Nobody's saying they should.
If youre able to play enough comps then there's not necessarily a need for anyone to put in other cards.
Not everyone can play 2 or 3 or more comps a month for a number of reasons 
So they play a "social" game but play it with a card in their hand, trying to play their best.
In this respect, to me there's 2 types of golf...card in hand or no card in hand.
Card in hand can be the Medal or Stableford or it can be 3 guys going out on a Friday afternoon to play as well as they can and put the card in.
No card in hand is gimmees, dodgy drops, excessive banter etc etc...
To me they are easily distinguished


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## LincolnShep (Mar 8, 2021)

My default position will be to enter every round I play.  There will need to be good a reason to *not* do so (like the format on the day) rather than a reason to do so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 8, 2021)

LincolnShep said:



			My default position will be to enter every round I play.  There will need to be good a reason to *not* do so (like the format on the day) rather than a reason to do so.
		
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^^This^^
Some of my best rounds have come outside of a Comp, certainly believe the mental pressure of a comp has gotten to me.

I’m hoping by taking the attitude above it helps me overcome crumbling with a card in my hand.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 8, 2021)

I probably will hand most cards in and hope that having a card "in my hand" more often than not will help me focus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Yep, that is the way you think. Others won't. Other opinions are equally valid.
		
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The thing is - I thought exactly as you (and was very vocally anti-WHS for our rollups being 'counting' rounds) until I realised I didn't have to think the way I was (your way) - because I realised that rounds didn't* need *to matter in the way that qualifiers did because most of the time they just won't.    If I *want *every round to matter then I can start every round with such a mindset - and make things needlessly tough for myself.

But hey.  If you are determined that every round that might impact your H/I is *really* important and you tee off with that mindset then - IMO - you are making the WHS a rod for your own back - when it just needn't be.

The first step to my and Bdill93's way of thinking is to stop thinking of every round that goes into your 20 round pot as a _*qualifier*_.  That is old CONGU thinking that no longer need apply.  Think of a round as simply one that goes into the pot - nothing more than that - a round that most probably won't make any difference to my H/I - unless that is it is good enough to reduce it 

I'll note that once I'd 'seen the light' I decided that I had to apologise to our Captain, Golf Manager and Pro as I'd been *very *vociferous in my opposition to what the club was proposing for roll-ups.  And I was very happy to make these apologies.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 8, 2021)

Im on the fence, surely just throwing loads in the pot, means alot of good rounds drop off, so your going to be on the 1st tee knowing that if your 20th oldest score which is about to drop off is a 'counter' you need to beat or match it or your handicap is 100% going to increase?  Likewise as your round progresses, your handicap may be decreasing dramatically?  Surely the stress is the same as it was for any other qualifier?

Unler these circumstances (which will be 40% of your rounds at least) Im pretty sure I wont be grabbing driver for a bit of fun!


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## Bdill93 (Mar 8, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Im on the fence, surely just throwing loads in the pot, means alot of good rounds drop off, so your going to be on the 1st tee knowing that if your 20th oldest score which is about to drop off is a 'counter' you need to beat or match it or your handicap is 100% going to increase?  Likewise as your round progresses, your handicap may be decreasing dramatically?  Surely the stress is the same as it was for any other qualifier?

Unler these circumstances (which will be 40% of your rounds at least) Im pretty sure I wont be grabbing driver for a bit of fun!
		
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Hear me out here...

Id argue if this is the case, maybe you need the additonal shots on you HI as you cant regularly play (8/20) to that low level again? 

If you're a consistent golfer, you've got nothing to worry about as 8/20 isnt even a good round in every 2..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Im on the fence, surely just throwing loads in the pot, means alot of good rounds drop off, so your going to be on the 1st tee knowing that if your 20th oldest score which is about to drop off is a 'counter' you need to beat or match it or your handicap is 100% going to increase?  Likewise as your round progresses, your handicap may be decreasing dramatically?  Surely the stress is the same as it was for any other qualifier?

Unler these circumstances (which will be 40% of your rounds at least) Im pretty sure I wont be grabbing driver for a bit of fun!
		
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Good rounds will drop off once they are more than 19 rounds old, and so such as a fluke brilliant round that brought your handicap crunching down will eventually disappear and your handicap index will slowly adjust back up to where it would be were it not for the fluke.  And so if you want to maintain your exact H/I index then yes you'll have to produce the same score as the one you are losing. If not your H/I will drift up a little - but as it's calculated across your best 8 it isn't likely to move up very much.

I know where your 40% comes from but it doesn't work that way.  If your best 8 rounds are your last 8 rounds then you can play 12 rounds and hence lose 12 rounds before your H/I is impacted - and it will only be impacted if none of these new 12 rounds is the same as, or better than, one of your best 8.  The whole system is about getting you a H/I that reflects your most recent play - moving away from a handicap that is biased by one or more brilliant rounds of times distant past.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 8, 2021)

Equally, under congu, with cats and buffer you shouldnt be stressed because you only had to get close to your handicap to hot buffer?  

I cant see how any qualifying round is different than it always has been?

And in Swings it like hogans example, youve then got 8 rounds in a row that represent apurple batch all coming at once!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 8, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			My view that your handicap is most accurate by entering every card is fact - not an opinion. The more data, the better.

Ive never said you *have to* submit every round. Ive suggested you should to have the most accurate handicap and by not doing this - you are manipulating your handicap in some way - also fact.
		
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No this isn't true. The mindset between competitive rounds and bounce games are completely different. If I submitted every card my handicap would go way up and not be a true reflection of my ability.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good rounds will drop off once they are more than 19 rounds old, and so such as a fluke brilliant round that brought your handicap crunching down will disappear and your handicap index will slowly adjust back up to where it would be were it not for the fluke.  And so if you want to maintain your exact H/I index then yes you'll have to produce the same score as you are losing.  If not your H/I will drift up a little - but as it's calculated across your best 8 it isn't likely to move up very much.

I know where your 40% comes from but *it doesn't work that way*.  If your best 8 rounds are your last 8 rounds then you can play 12 rounds and hence lose 12 rounds before your H/I is impacted - and it will only be impacted if none of these 12 rounds is the same as, or better than, one of your best 8.  The whole system is about getting you a H/I that reflects your most recent play - not a few brilliant rounds of times distant past.
		
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It absolutely *DOES* work that way i.e. 40% of your last 20 rounds are used to calculate your handicap index.  Everything else is whataboutery...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Equally, under congu, with cats and buffer you shouldnt be stressed because you only had to get close to your handicap to hot buffer?

I cant see how any qualifying round is different than it always has been?

And in Swings it like hogans example, youve then got 8 rounds in a row that *represent apurple batch all coming at once! *

Click to expand...

And a purple patch of 8 rounds of great scoring should most definitely be as fully reflected as possible in your H/I


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			It absolutely *DOES* work that way i.e. 40% of your last 20 rounds are used to calculate your handicap index.  Everything else is whataboutery...
		
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Yes I agree - but that *doesn't *necessarily translate into 40% of the rounds I play counting towards my 8 - they all go into my 20 round pot but they won't necessarily count.  If my H/I is calculated from my last 8 rounds then I can play 12 rounds without a single one of them counting towards my handicap index as one of my best 8.  I will know that and so could play all of these rounds as recklessly and carefree as I might wish.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I agree...
		
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Thank you.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 8, 2021)

I have set a target with my friend to make 250 birdies between us this year. We did the same a couple of years ago with a target of 100 from August onwards and we smashed it. If I'm playing a bounce game with her and have a 30ft putt for birdie I'll be going for it and not worrying about the one back. With a card in my hand I'd be looking to leave it stone dead. Totally different mindset.

Edit: due to 3 months lockdown we'll need to revise our target 🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Thank you.
		
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But you disagreed with what I agree with


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 8, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I have set a target with my friend to make 250 birdies between us this year. We did the same a couple of years ago with a target of 100 from August onwards and we smashed it. If I'm playing a bounce game with her and have a 30ft putt for birdie I'll be going for it and not worrying about the one back. With a card in my hand I'd be looking to leave it stone dead. Totally different mindset.
		
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But you’re a Cat 1 who has developed this mindset/ability over years of steady Golf.

I hope to get to that mindset and can see the WHS helping me, and, for some it won’t be required.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But you disagreed with what I agree with 

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No I didn't


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## jim8flog (Mar 8, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No this isn't true. The mindset between competitive rounds and bounce games are completely different. If I submitted every card my handicap would go way up and not be a true reflection of my ability.
		
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In the main this is not true for me. Whenever I play I am trying to put in the best score I can achieve and treat a medal exactly the same as a social round. In that way I am not putting myself under increased pressure when I am playing in a comp.  There are some rounds where I am playing around and trying out new thin and the round is treated exactly as that.

One of my regular playing partners hates it when we are not playing for anything.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			No I didn't 

Click to expand...

My point is simply that I don't have to worry about every round I play impacting my H/I; that I don't have to worry about 2 out of every 5 I play impacting my H/I, indeed it is quite possible that I could play 12 rounds without *any *of them impacting my H/I - and that number could be more than 12 if one or more of the 12 was the same as one of my best 8.

And so the fact that our social/friendly rollups are going to be included as rounds for my 20 round pot just doesn't bother me in the slightest.  Most of the time these rounds just won't impact by H/I.  And as we will have loads of 'counting' rounds - I won't be needing to put in additional cards.  I *might *put additional cards in if I am playing well; I want to get my H/I down quickly if possible, and think I could get rid of a couple of rubbish rounds from my best 8.


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## Orikoru (Mar 8, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Nobody's saying they should.
If youre able to play enough comps then there's not necessarily a need for anyone to put in other cards.
Not everyone can play 2 or 3 or more comps a month for a number of reasons
So they play a "social" game but play it with a card in their hand, trying to play their best.
In this respect, to me there's 2 types of golf...card in hand or no card in hand.
Card in hand can be the Medal or Stableford or it can be 3 guys going out on a Friday afternoon to play as well as they can and put the card in.
No card in hand is gimmees, dodgy drops, excessive banter etc etc...
To me they are easily distinguished
		
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Sorry, I just meant pointless _for me_. I do get the purpose for others as you describe. But for me, my non-comp rounds are either having a laugh with my mates, or my dad, or if playing on my own I'll be practising short game or such-and-such, it would never be a situation where I'm really focused on scoring well so I wouldn't hand any extra cards in myself.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is simply that I don't have to worry about every round I play impacting my H/I; that I don't have to worry about 2 out of every 5 I play impacting my H/I, indeed it is quite possible that I could play 12 rounds without *any *of them impacting my H/I - and that number could be more than 12 if one or more of the 12 was the same as one of my best 8.
		
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And *MY* point was simply confirming that your handicap index is calculated using your last 20 scores, and you agreed (see your own post above).


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## Red scorpion (Mar 8, 2021)

Well im expecting a increase in handicap as 4 of my next 5 score are counters and due to drop off.already had .1 for 1at medal this year


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			And *MY* point was simply confirming that your handicap index is calculated using your last 20 scores, and you agreed (see your own post above).
		
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It is - but my point is simply that I don't _*have *_to worry or get a bit stressed about that fact on a round-by-round basis in the way I would have when I had a card in hand for a qualifier - because then I knew that that qualifier round mattered in a much more *immediate *and *direct *way than counting rounds will under WHS.

Glad we can agree though


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is - but my point is simply that I don't _*have *_to worry or get a bit stressed about that fact on a round-by-round basis in the way I would have when I had a card in hand for a qualifier - because then I knew that that qualifier round mattered in a much more *immediate *and *direct *way than counting rounds will under WHS.

Glad we can agree though 

Click to expand...

If that was all you had said before I would have made no comment as I have no view/opinion on your worry/stress playing a round of golf in the new WHS world vs how it was before.  I was merely correcting you when you said the WHS calculation doesn't work in the way it actually does and you have since acknowledged and agreed with


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			If that was all you had said before I would have made no comment as I have no view/opinion on your worry/stress playing a round of golf in the new WHS world vs how it was before.  I was merely correcting you when you said the WHS calculation doesn't work in the way it actually does and you have since acknowledged and agreed with 

Click to expand...

In this this thread and other related threads, many express degrees of dislike of WHS and push-back on comps being deemed counting comps by their clubs on the basis that they don't want to be playing qualifiers for such as their rollups and other social competitions.

I am simply commenting that those holding such concerns do not have to see things that way due to the way WHS works.  So when someone posts expressing concerns that 40% of their rounds will count towards their handicap index at any time, I am suggesting that whilst it is true that over a rolling widow of 20 rounds 40% of these 20 will count, it is not something I need to be concerned about on a round-by-round basis.  As mentioned - I could be in the situation where I could play 12 or more rounds with not a single one of them changing my H/I (unless I am completely missing something about WHS)


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 8, 2021)

I put in a card on each of the 18 hole rounds I played since the system came in, and will continue to do so. It gives me a fair reflection of where I'm at, and also ensures there's an element of 'trying' in my knock about games with mates - which in turn, makes me score better and enjoy it all a lot more.

My handicap has gone up since putting cards in, due in part to the wet conditions in the winter - but then my handicap is fair to those conditions ... Once we get back out and the fairways are rolling again and it's not totally muddy everywhere, I suspect I'll come back down a shot or two - reflective of my ability at that time on the course.

I enjoy golf 100% more when I'm trying, and keeping score - and WHS has been a hugely welcome way of me doing that more than a couple of times a month, having not previously been able to do supplementary cards due to being in Cat 1.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In this this thread and other related threads, many express degrees of dislike of WHS and push-back on comps being deemed counting comps on the basis that it seems that their clubs will deem many rounds to be qualifiers, and they don't want to be playing qualifiers for such as their rollups and other social competitions.  I am simply commenting that those holding such concerns do not have to see things that way due to the way WHS works - as you know.
		
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Again, I was simply correcting your incorrect statement re. how a WHS index is calculated above which you have since acknowledged was incorrect.


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## patricks148 (Mar 8, 2021)

Red scorpion said:



			Well im expecting a increase in handicap as 4 of my next 5 score are counters and due to drop off.already had .1 for 1at medal this year

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same here my 19th and 20th scores are my best two


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			same here my 19th and 20th scores are my best two
		
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I played my 1st comp last Saturday and got my first 0.2 back as my 20th score was counting.  Was to be expected as only 2nd time hitting a ball in 2021 but worse disasters will befall the nation than my WHS index going up 0.2.

P.S. Does anyone know what the appeals process is for a WHS adjustment?  Can I take it to court???


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## rosecott (Mar 8, 2021)

Red scorpion said:



			Well im expecting a increase in handicap as 4 of my next 5 score are counters and due to drop off.already had .1 for 1at medal this year

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Please don't confuse me. I have only recently got it into my head that "qualifiers" are now "counting" and you come along and tell me that, to be a counter, it has to be in your best 8.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Please don't confuse me. I have only recently got it into my head that "qualifiers" are now "counting" and you come along and tell me that, to be a counter, it has to be in your best 8.
		
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In practice, the way it works now is:

- to get cut, you need to beat your 8th best score.
- if your 20th score is one of your best 8, you have to equal it for your index to stay the same. If you don't, your 9th best score takes its place as your new 8th best score and therefore you will most likely get a small increase.


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## patricks148 (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I played my 1st comp last Saturday and got my first 0.2 back as my 20th score was counting.  Was to be expected as only 2nd time hitting a ball in 2021 but worse disasters will befall the nation than my WHS index going up 0.2.

P.S. Does anyone know what the appeals process is for a WHS adjustment?  Can I take it to court??? 

Click to expand...

who can say, but i wouldn't be suprised if someone did


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## Red scorpion (Mar 8, 2021)

Bear in mind same score may have a different score differential


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## Golfnut1957 (Mar 8, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			In the main this is not true for me. Whenever I play I am trying to put in the best score I can achieve and treat a medal exactly the same as a social round. In that way I am not putting myself under increased pressure when I am playing in a comp.  There are some rounds where I am playing around and* trying out new thin *and the round is treated exactly as that.

One of my regular playing partners hates it when we are not playing for anything.
		
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I'm expecting to be trying out thins, new and old, come the 29th.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 8, 2021)

If someone could make a note to check in on this thread in a year’s time, it would be hugely interesting.

The guidance under WHS is to put more cards in, outside of competition rounds.

Over 40% have said on the poll that they will NEVER do that. Will be keen to see if that’s the reality after it’s bedded in some more. It may still be for some, but 4/10 people never putting in a score (or supplementary in old money) seems really high.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 8, 2021)

I won’t.....a competition round is golf.  Other rounds are interspersed with dog walking, phone calls, texts, practicing, jumping about holes, not holing out, messing about, match play....... Quite happy with 2 modes of golf as is is.


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## DanFST (Mar 8, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			I won’t.....a competition round is golf.  Other rounds are interspersed with dog walking, phone calls, texts, practicing, jumping about holes, not holing out, messing about, match play....... Quite happy with 2 modes of golf as is is.
		
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For you. 

I play for money almost every time I play. If we're knocking about it'll be a scramble or something fun.


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## KenL (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I played my 1st comp last Saturday and got my first 0.2 back as my 20th score was counting.  Was to be expected as only 2nd time hitting a ball in 2021 but worse disasters will befall the nation than my WHS index going up 0.2.

P.S. Does anyone know what the appeals process is for a WHS adjustment?  Can I take it to court??? 

Click to expand...

So, your club has gone ahead with comps?
We've not had any since October and doubt we will have any until travel restrictions are lifted.


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## USER1999 (Mar 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			For you.

I play for money almost every time I play. If we're knocking about it'll be a scramble or something fun.
		
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I play for money (or drinks in the bar, loser pays) most of the time, but then it's 4bbb match play for me. No point in being conservative, go for everything. Especially putting. World of difference between this, and individual medal.


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

KenL said:



			So, your club has gone ahead with comps?
We've not had any since October and doubt we will have any until travel restrictions are lifted.
		
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Yes, they had one last Saturday altho the rest planned for March have been postponed as trying to book times in 2 balls via HDID didn't go too well.

There were also several issues with folk not turning up to play with who they were booked with, in one case just heading out with their brother who they usually play with, other examples of others just walking on and playing without bookings etc., just the usual chaos we have come to expect since it's not been possible to have a proper starting and sign-in process with the shop being closed.

Travel restrictions isn't an issue for us as most members live close by and within our local council area.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 8, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Yes, they had one last Saturday altho the rest planned for March have been postponed as trying to book times in 2 balls via HDID didn't go too well.

There were also several issues with folk not turning up to play with who they were booked with, in one case just heading out with their brother who they usually play with, other examples of others just walking on and playing without bookings etc., just the usual chaos we have come to expect since it's not been possible to have a proper starting and sign-in process with the shop being closed.

Travel restrictions isn't an issue for us as most members live close by and within our local council area.
		
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Can’t someone just stand on/by/near the first tee and start the players off?


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## ger147 (Mar 8, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Can’t someone just stand on/by/near the first tee and start the players off?
		
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In theory yes, in practice it would appear not.


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## Neilds (Mar 9, 2021)

Are the mods making a list of those people who say they won’t enter extra non competition cards so that when they post moaning about bandits, handicap manipulation, short game wizards, etc they can be given an infraction? 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀


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## D-S (Mar 9, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Are the mods making a list of those people who say they won’t enter extra non competition cards so that when they post moaning about bandits, handicap manipulation, short game wizards, etc they can be given an infraction? 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
		
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I think if I saw a handicap record from player A with 30 ‘social scores’ and 1 competition score and player B with 30 competition scores and 1 ’social scorek, I would be more concerned about handicap manipulation from player A.


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## KenL (Mar 9, 2021)

D-S said:



			I think if I saw a handicap record from player A with 30 ‘social scores’ and 1 competition score and player B with 30 competition scores and 1 ’social scorek, I would be more concerned about handicap manipulation from player A.
		
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Why worry, the person with only 1 comp scores can do you no harm as they don't play comps.


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## Boomy (Mar 9, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			I won’t.....a competition round is golf.  Other rounds are interspersed with dog walking, phone calls, texts, practicing, jumping about holes, not holing out, messing about, match play....... Quite happy with 2 modes of golf as is is.
		
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“Interspersed with dog walking, phone calls, texts” really though?


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## SammmeBee (Mar 9, 2021)

Boomy said:



			“Interspersed with dog walking, phone calls, texts” really though?
		
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Yes.....dog comes everyday when it’s not a competition (or raining) as I wouldn’t want to put other people off and he has the odd occasion of running off with balls!  Where else would I want to take work calls than on the 7th fairway....if they go on too long I either ask them to wait while I play or just stick the phone on the ground and let them gabble on.....and how else do you see how the boys in front are scoring or share a pic of incredibly bad lie.

2 modes of golf - competition and then every day life in the fresh air......


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Are the mods making a list of those people who say they won’t enter extra non competition cards so that when they post moaning about bandits, handicap manipulation, short game wizards, etc they can be given an infraction? 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
		
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Why do you think that entering more cards equals a more accurate handicap?


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## Neilds (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Why do you think that entering more cards equals a more accurate handicap?
		
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I know it’s early in the morning, but surely the amount of smileys I put on the quote should show I was joking! 😀
But if you want to be pedantic, simple statistics show the larger the pool/field of information, the more accurate it tends to be.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I know it’s early in the morning, but surely the amount of smileys I put on the quote should show I was joking! 😀
But if you want to be pedantic, simple statistics show the larger the pool/field of information, the more accurate it tends to be.
		
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I'm not being pedantic but surely you understand the difference between a competitive round mindset and a bounce game mindset? I can shoot low 70's in a medal but I'm not the least bit worried if I shoot mid 80's having a laugh with my mates. If I submit more cards yes there is more data but it's not a true reflection of my golfing ability. Based on those bounce games my handicap could go up 4 or 5 shots but you are saying that's OK because I've submitted lots of cards?


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 9, 2021)

My view on this is that I probably will enter quite a few general play rounds (once I get my initial cards in) because the social rounds I do play can be easily tweaked to make them count by holing out, playing provisionals instead of taking a drop etc.

I can't imagine my mindset would be any different playing in a competition than it would be with mates anyway (probably due to the competitive nature of our social group).

The only rounds I really try new things on and hit multiple balls, rehit bad shots etc are solo rounds on a Friday afternoon after an early finish - which i couldn't submit anyway.

However, if your social rounds are a much more relaxed, out for a walk with mates, affair then I can understand why you wouldn't be submitting general play cards.

It all depends on the individuals or groups you play with.

Live and let live!


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## Neilds (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm not being pedantic but surely you understand the difference between a competitive round mindset and a bounce game mindset? I can shoot low 70's in a medal but I'm not the least bit worried if I shoot mid 80's having a laugh with my mates. If I submit more cards yes there is more data but it's not a true reflection of my golfing ability. Based on those bounce games my handicap could go up 4 or 5 shots but you are saying that's OK because I've submitted lots of cards?
		
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Surely a declared round for handicap is different to a bounce game? Certainly should be in terms of concentration, etc


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

If you're playing enough competition rounds that you feel your handicap is indicative of your standard of play then there's no need to put further cards in.
But you have the option, on those bounce game days, to play the bounce game with a competitive mindset and put the card in.
And if you're playing "card in hand" then you have a responsibility to score as well as you can. In other words you play with that competitive streak just as you would in the Medal
It doesn't mean you have to turn every bounce game into a counting round, far from it, but the more rounds entered that are played in competition or with a competitive mindset, the more accurately your index will reflect your current standard of play which is what the WHS is designed to do.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If you're playing enough competition rounds that you feel your handicap is indicative of your standard of play then there's no need to put further cards in.
But you have the option, on those bounce game days, to play the bounce game with a competitive mindset and put the card in.
And if you're playing "card in hand" then you have a responsibility to score as well as you can. In other words you play with that competitive streak just as you would in the Medal
It doesn't mean you have to turn every bounce game into a counting round, far from it, but the more rounds entered that are played in competition or with a competitive mindset, the more accurately your index will reflect your current standard of play which is what the WHS is designed to do.
		
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Correct. But in the real world that doesn't happen.


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If you're playing enough competition rounds that you feel your handicap is indicative of your standard of play then there's no need to put further cards in.
But you have the option, on those bounce game days, to play the bounce game with a competitive mindset and put the card in.
And if you're playing "card in hand" then you have a responsibility to score as well as you can. In other words you play with that competitive streak just as you would in the Medal
It doesn't mean you have to turn every bounce game into a counting round, far from it, but the more rounds entered that are played in competition or with a competitive mindset, the more accurately your index will reflect your current standard of play which is what the WHS is designed to do.
		
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A great point, you have to declare prior to the round anyway so once you've done that then you can get into the competitive mindset.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

I still don't think my competitive mind set would be anywhere what it can be in a competition. It will be interesting to see if my competitive mindset is different with this 8 from 20, but I won't know until I am a decent number of cards in. That might not be til August ish, may be later.
I still struggle with the concept of cards not under comp conditions, in terms of field (not everyone playing, so varied concentration, gimmees, pick ups, messing about, varied pace of play, etc) and course conditioning, (greens not cut, greens not ironed, pin placements, tee markers not off the stones, etc). It is not the same to me. Easier? Harder? No idea, but different.
3 of our tees are 80 yards shorter when not off the stones, and yet there doesn't seem to be any adjustment for this that I can see.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

I could easily increase my handicap by 10 shots in a month under the new system.


When do all those handicap opens with big prizes begin? 😁


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## Wabinez (Mar 9, 2021)

Jeez there is so much overthinking going on in this.

either you are going to put cards in or not.

those that are saying your mindset is completely different if playing a competition or not, it makes you sound like you are on tour. You aren’t. You play amateur golf at a club for fun. 
Every round is competitive. Whether you are playing club champs, or just for a round of beers in the bar afterwards (remember those days...). Every time you go out to play 18 holes, I can’t imagine any of you don’t go out with the intention of trying to shoot the lowest score you can on that day no matter the conditions.


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## Wabinez (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I could easily increase my handicap by 10 shots in a month under the new system.


When do all those handicap opens with big prizes begin? 😁
		
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well, you couldn’t as there are checks in place to stop it


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## backwoodsman (Mar 9, 2021)

I appreciate there's a difference between bounce games &  competition games. But I still try to play the best  I  can everytime I go out. Am surprised there seem to be plenty of folk who dont?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I appreciate there's a difference between bounce games &  competition games. But I still try to play the best  I  can everytime I go out. Am surprised there seem to be plenty of folk who dont?
		
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People play for fun. If your mate hits a great shot then there is a good chance you will try to match it because it's a bounce game and it's for fun and the outcome doesn't matter. All those people that play every round like it's a medal must be a bundle of laughs on the course. 

Competition = try my hardest
Bounce game = have a laugh and not worry about my score


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## Bdill93 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm not being pedantic but surely you understand the difference between a competitive round mindset and a bounce game mindset? I can shoot low 70's in a medal but I'm not the least bit worried if I shoot mid 80's having a laugh with my mates. If I submit more cards yes there is more data but it's not a true reflection of my golfing ability. Based on those bounce games my handicap could go up 4 or 5 shots but you are saying that's OK because I've submitted lots of cards?
		
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True reflection of your gofling ability would be to go out every time with a card, try your best and submit the round every time.

Then if the system maybe took an average of say the best 8 out of 20, so that 12 rounds didnt matter (you could do whatever in those and it would remain unaffected) and the average of the 8 is what you commonly play to - with a small equation added on top to take into account course difficulties. - sounds like quite an accurate system to me... They should look into this!


drive4show said:



			I could easily increase my handicap by 10 shots in a month under the new system.


When do all those handicap opens with big prizes begin? 😁
		
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There are soft and hard caps stopping this from happening.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			True reflection of your gofling ability would be to go out every time with a card, try your best and submit the round every time.

Then if the system maybe took an average of say the best 8 out of 20, so that 12 rounds didnt matter (you could do whatever in those and it would remain unaffected) and the average of the 8 is what you commonly play to - with a small equation added on top to take into account course difficulties. - sounds like quite an accurate system to me... They should look into this!


There are soft and hard caps stopping this from happening.
		
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Do you play golf for fun?


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## Bdill93 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Do you play golf for fun?
		
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Yeah, every time I play I have fun! 

Just because me and my PP's play the game properly - doesnt mean we dont piss ourselves when my old man sticks his drive into the duck pond mate.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I appreciate there's a difference between bounce games &  competition games. But I still try to play the best  I  can everytime I go out. Am surprised there seem to be plenty of folk who dont?
		
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Do you ever go out in the evening after a stressful day at work just to unwind, enjoy the sunshine and maybe try new swing thoughts?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Yeah, every time I play I have fun! 

Just because me and my PP's play the game properly - doesnt mean we dont piss ourselves when my old man sticks his drive into the duck pond mate.
		
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Well keep up the good work, I'm sure your handicap will tumble mate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

...and for me one of the main points is that your rubbish rounds won't count but your great rounds will.  And regardless of how little pressure that you might feel when playing such as a friendly roll-up competition - if you put together a great score it is simply a fact that it was done a competition.  And as that round might well reflect your ability it should be reflected in your H/I.  If it was a fluke and your other 7 rounds of your 8 are nothing like it then your H/I will not be significantly impacted by the fluke round.  If there are other not dissimilar rounds in your 8 then the round simply substantiates these scores.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Well keep up the good work, I'm sure your handicap will tumble mate.
		
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It has so far


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			People play for fun. If your mate hits a great shot then there is a good chance you will try to match it because it's a bounce game and it's for fun and the outcome doesn't matter. All those people that play every round like it's a medal must be a bundle of laughs on the course.

Competition = try my hardest
Bounce game = have a laugh and not worry about my score
		
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So I hit my drive into the trees on 3, there is a 12ft gap, 15 yards ahead, that if it comes off, I can still make par. Medal = chip out, make bogey at worst. Any other game, esp 4bbb, and I am going for the hollywood shot.
Totally different mindset.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			There are soft and hard caps stopping this from happening.
		
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Mate of mine plays off +1 but he sliced through the tendons in his hand 3 weeks ago. Unlikely he will be able to grip a club properly for 6 months so how does he get a handicap that reflects his current ability during the summer?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 9, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Every round is competitive. Whether you are playing club champs, or just for a round of beers in the bar afterwards (remember those days...). Every time you go out to play 18 holes, I can’t imagine any of you don’t go out with the intention of trying to shoot the lowest score you can on that day no matter the conditions.
		
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That is clearly not the case for everyone, hence why tihs discussion. Sometimes I will go out, social golf, and concentrate on just getting clean strikes with my irons. That may mean taking an iron when I should be taking a hybrid or a 3 wood but it is practice. I often go 3 wood off the tee on every par 4 and 5 for practice. I know I will take more shots but that doesn't bother me because I'm not counting. I'm having a friendly round with a mate, the score doesn't matter. So.....not every round is competitive. 

I read Sam Torrance's autobiography last year. He couldn't play, outside of comps, without money being at stake. He had no interest without that. It's whatever you need or whatever floats your boat. It is not the same for everyone though.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Mate of mine plays off +1 but he sliced through the tendons in his hand 3 weeks ago. Unlikely he will be able to grip a club properly for 6 months so how does he get a handicap that reflects his current ability during the summer?
		
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Ask his committee to issue him with a temporary handicap.... or play 20 rounds and see it adjust by 5/6 shots negatively for now.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Mate of mine plays off +1 but he sliced through the tendons in his hand 3 weeks ago. Unlikely he will be able to grip a club properly for 6 months so how does he get a handicap that reflects his current ability during the summer?
		
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Golf handicap would be the least of my worries in this situation, I would be more concerned about having a fully functioning hand long term.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is clearly not the case for everyone, hence why tihs discussion. Sometimes I will go out, social golf, and concentrate on just getting clean strikes with my irons. That may mean taking an iron when I should be taking a hybrid or a 3 wood but it is practice. I often go 3 wood off the tee on every par 4 and 5 for practice. I know I will take more shots but that doesn't bother me because I'm not counting. I'm having a friendly round with a mate, the score doesn't matter. So.....not every round is competitive.

I read Sam Torrance's autobiography last year. He couldn't play, outside of comps, without money being at stake. He had no interest without that. It's whatever you need or whatever floats your boat. It is not the same for everyone though.
		
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Exactly..or more accurately Every round CAN be competitive 
It just doesn't have to be in a competition to be competitive 
You have the choice
Neither way is wrong.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Exactly..or more accurately Every round CAN be competitive
It just doesn't have to be in a competition to be competitive
You have the choice
Neither way is wrong.
		
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The thing is, I can see how some might be trying to hit their best score every time they play. These people do exist.
But they don't seem to be able to comprehend that not every one is like that.


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## AliMc (Mar 9, 2021)

I think it can easily be a mixture of both, sometimes submitting GP cards in bounce games and sometimes not, as we have been playing in 2 balls it's been great to submit cards and have the games meaning something but now my back is playing up a bit I'll probably not bother for a wee while, when we go back to our 'friendly competitive' 4 balls I probably won't bother


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			The thing is, I can see how some might be trying to hit their best score every time they play. These people do exist.
But they don't seem to be able to comprehend that not every one is like that.
		
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So if you are not really that bothered about your score in what you consider a friendly knock - albeit one that is set up as a competition - and you play a bit casually - even recklessly - and despite yourself you go on to knock it round well under your handicap, should that *not *be reflected in your H/I?  WHS thinks it should be.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			The thing is, I can see how some might be trying to hit their best score every time they play. These people do exist.
But they don't seem to be able to comprehend that not every one is like that.
		
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And in some cases it's likely to be the other way around too.
Nobody should have any issues with any of this as long as the non competition rounds that are entered are done properly - and as we're all golfers and its a game of integrity ( barring the miniscule number who dice with the rules anyway) we should, when playing card in hand for handicapping, play to the best of our ability on that day.
And when we're not we can do what we want and go for that gap..
Simply...every round can be competitive if you choose it to be and if you do, play like its competitive.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So if you are not really that bothered about your score in what you consider a friendly casual knock - albeit one that is set up to be competitive - and you actually play a bit casually - even recklessly - if you go on to knock it round well under your handicap should that *not *be reflected in your H/I?  WHS thinks it should be.
		
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No, it shouldn't. It would not reflect playing well, it would reflect a heck of a lot of luck. That is totally different, and is not sustainable. Perhaps if WHS threw out your best 3, took the next 8, and binned the last 9, that would make more sense, but to include a flash round built on luck, no, not for me.


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## Orikoru (Mar 9, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Jeez there is so much overthinking going on in this.

either you are going to put cards in or not.

those that are saying your mindset is completely different if playing a competition or not, it makes you sound like you are on tour. You aren’t. You play amateur golf at a club for fun.
Every round is competitive. Whether you are playing club champs, or just for a round of beers in the bar afterwards (remember those days...). Every time you go out to play 18 holes, I can’t imagine any of you don’t go out with the intention of trying to shoot the lowest score you can on that day no matter the conditions.
		
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You always want to score well but the mindset and level of focus is different. Non-comp rounds you try out new shots, because if you don't practise them, you'll never be able to do them - whereas in a comp scenario you will go for the safer option which might be something different. And as I said before, in friendly rounds you may not stick rigidly to the rules of golf, in the interest of speed or enjoyability. For some people it may be the case that they never use driver in a comp because it's too wayward, but in a social round they will smash it to their heart's abandon because it's fun. There are loads of variable factors aside from whether you're trying to score well or not.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			And in some cases it's likely to be the other way around too.
Nobody should have any issues with any of this as long as the non competition rounds that are entered are done properly - and as we're all golfers and its a game of integrity ( barring the miniscule number who dice with the rules anyway) we should, when playing card in hand for handicapping, play to the best of our ability on that day.
And when we're not we can do what we want and go for that gap..
Simply...every round can be competitive if you choose it to be and if you do, play like its competitive.
		
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I am quite happy for others to put in however many cards they want, just stop trying to force me too.
If my club try to enforce putting roll up cards in, I will probably end up leaving the club. I won't enjoy playing pretty much every round under scoring conditions. It's not what I play golf for.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			No, it shouldn't. It would not reflect playing well, it would reflect a heck of a lot of luck. That is totally different, and is not sustainable. Perhaps if WHS threw out your best 3, took the next 8, and binned the last 9, that would make more sense, but to include a flash round built on luck, no, not for me.
		
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And if it was completely based upon luck and you don't do it again or if there are no other similar scores in your 8, then the fluke round won't have much impact at all on your H/I.  It'll only matter if you go on to shoot similar rounds - otherwise it's impact will be minimal and only last until it drops out of your 20.

However if there are other not dissimilar rounds in your 8 then maybe your 'fluke' round is not quite that - and who is to know what you will score in subsequent rounds.  I see absolutely no reason for your H/I to not reflect your best golf in any form of individual competitive context regardless of your mindset when setting out and how you approach your play.  During the round you don't need to care one iota what you end up scoring - but in the end a score in a competitive context is just that, and we can celebrate their happening, and they should be included in your H/I calculation.  I just don't get the concern or issue.


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## DanFST (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I am quite happy for others to put in however many cards they want, just stop trying to force me too.
If my club try to enforce putting roll up cards in, I will probably end up leaving the club. I won't enjoy playing pretty much every round under scoring conditions. It's not what I play golf for.
		
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I'm not sure anyone is forcing you. This arouse from you saying a member "had no clue" because he has handed in cards every round. He can do what he likes. 

If I want to increase my handicap, I can do that it comps too, it's no different. It's all about integrity.


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## jim8flog (Mar 9, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Yes, they had one last Saturday altho the rest planned for March have been postponed as trying to book times in 2 balls via HDID didn't go too well.

There were also several issues with folk not turning up to play with who they were booked with, in one case just heading out with their brother who they usually play with, other examples of others just walking on and playing without bookings etc., just the usual chaos we have come to expect since it's not been possible to have a proper starting and sign-in process with the shop being closed.

Travel restrictions isn't an issue for us as most members live close by and within our local council area.
		
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 We have several starters they are all volunteers and they get a small reduction in their memberships fees by way of a thankyou.  They also act as course rangers checking membership tags etc.


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## jim8flog (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Mate of mine plays off +1 but he sliced through the tendons in his hand 3 weeks ago. Unlikely he will be able to grip a club properly for 6 months so how does he get a handicap that reflects his current ability during the summer?
		
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 Put in a reasonable number of cards so that there are scores which show his current ability then request a handicap review giving the injury as the reason for the request.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Just wrong. You haven't got a clue.
		
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This one?

You have misunderstood my reply. The no clue refers to your comment re if you don't put every card in you are manipulating your handicap. Comment.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

I have not ever stated that people should not put cards in (as many as they want to), only ever that I don't want to, and it should not become compulsory, for roll ups etc.

There are some people who just don't seem to get that. They cannot understand that way of thinking, and are totally inflexible. It doesn't matter that only 8 out of 20 count, it won't change the fact that I, and some others don't see it that way, and probably never will.


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## Boomy (Mar 9, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Yes.....dog comes everyday when it’s not a competition (or raining) as I wouldn’t want to put other people off and he has the odd occasion of running off with balls!  Where else would I want to take work calls than on the 7th fairway....if they go on too long I either ask them to wait while I play or just stick the phone on the ground and let them gabble on.....and how else do you see how the boys in front are scoring or share a pic of incredibly bad lie.

2 modes of golf - competition and then every day life in the fresh air......
		
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You must mean playing on a local park or something! My mind would be blown 🤯 if someone actually took a dog with them when they play on a proper golf course 😂 That and talking on a mobile at all. Why would anybody do that in reality.


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## DRW (Mar 9, 2021)

Boomy said:



			You must mean playing on a local park or something! My mind would be blown 🤯 if someone actually took a dog with them when they play on a proper golf course 😂 That and talking on a mobile at all. Why would anybody do that in reality.
		
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Dogs are allowed at quite a number of courses(lots don't allow dogs), for example :-

Dogs Play For Free At Sunningdale Golf Club | Only A Game (wbur.org)


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 9, 2021)

Boomy said:



			You must mean playing on a local park or something! My mind would be blown 🤯 if someone actually took a dog with them when they play on a proper golf course 😂 That and talking on a mobile at all. Why would anybody do that in reality.
		
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I've seen a dog with a golfer on a number of occasions. They have to be well trained but it is very possible. It's actually very relaxing to watch.

 I've walked my dog on a course in the past whilst I played, hotel course, I knew I'd be the only one there. She careered around the place, totally out of control. Great fun but I never did it again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I have not ever stated that people should not put cards in (as many as they want to), only ever that I don't want to, and it should not become compulsory, for roll ups etc.

There are some people who just don't seem to get that. They cannot understand that way of thinking, and are totally inflexible. It doesn't matter that only 8 out of 20 count, it won't change the fact that I, and some others don't see it that way, and probably never will.
		
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...and so if your club does as mine has done, and determines that - for WHS to work as best it can for all - the bigger individual rollups organised in the club (not necessarily *by *the club) will be deemed to be counting rounds for WHS purposes.

Would you stop playing in them or leave your club; or would you shrug and say - well I'm not bothered that my regular friendly rollup round is now deemed counting I'm just going to play it as I always have.  If I have to tap in gimmies then so be it - if I miss some through carelessness I'm not going to be bothered.  Because that's what we're gong to be doing.  If any of us wants to take a rollup round seriously then they can - doesn't change my approach.


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## D-S (Mar 9, 2021)

I often play extremely competitive ‘bounce‘ games with my mates where my sole intention is to play 1 shot better than them nett on each hole. I don’t care what my individual score is as I am not playing against myself or a field of other players, I am playing against my mate. If I have to just knock one up the middle with an iron as he has hit it OB, I will. If I have to try and hole a chip for a half I’ll take a risk and do so - something I would never do if I was playing to achieve my best individual strokeplay score.
If I’m playing 4BB or 2 scores out of three, then my focus on my individual total score is even more lessened and I will play very differently - no way would I submit these scores as they do not demonstrate my ability in individual strokeplay.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

If you want competitive watch Fragger when we're all square on the 18th tee....


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## D-S (Mar 9, 2021)

Also when we play 4BB or bowmaker bounce games there is nothing worse than players solely playing for their own score and not for the team - taking ages deliberating over a 1 point putt when the team already has two 3 pointers in the bag. Someone desperately grinding out a 8 nett 6 for a point when we have already won the hole with a birdie doesn’t make a good bounce game.


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## IanM (Mar 9, 2021)

Will be interesting to see how this develops.   Previously (in the days when golf was permitted) every Saturday was a formal competition.  It was recognised that folk who worked for a living and could only play Saturdays, might not want to play a qualifier every time they played, so there was no requirement to enter the comp, but you could still play on Saturday.  The only stipulation was that you played in a format that would not disrupt the comp. 

I expect that this will continue regardless of WHS.  Covid has seen off "roll-ups" for now and all times are booked on line.  (we didn't ever have tee bookings till recently)  Seniors have qualifiers midweek and in the summer, there are mid week stablefords and medals.  I hope putting in cards is optional.   

I suspect WHS gives more clarity and formal process to enter "additional scores" for handicap, but in general, I see clear blue water between comp golf and everything else, hope that continues. 



D-S said:



			Also when we play 4BB or bowmaker bounce games there is nothing worse than players solely playing for their own score and not for the team - taking ages deliberating over a 1 point putt when the team already has two 3 pointers in the bag. Someone desperately grinding out a 8 nett 6 for a point when we have already won the hole with a birdie doesn’t make a good bounce game.
		
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And the above is the definitive reason why if the "COMP" is 4BBB or Bowmaker etc... folk must not be putting for a point when three have already been secured.  Or shall we try and find additional ways to slow the game down?


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## DeanoMK (Mar 9, 2021)

Yeah I definitely will be, I think in doing so it'll help me relax a bit more in competitions as I can put myself under a bit of pressure knowing that the score is counting. 

Having to hole every putt, knowing each shot counts each time will put me in a better frame of mind when it comes to the real thing. I will class it as practicing with purpose.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so if your club does as mine has done, and determines that - for WHS to work as best it can for all - the bigger individual rollups organised in the club (not necessarily *by *the club) will be deemed to be counting rounds for WHS purposes.

Would you stop playing in them or leave your club; or would you shrug and say - well I'm not bothered that my regular friendly rollup round is now deemed counting I'm just going to play it as I always have.  If I have to tap in gimmies then so be it - if I miss some through carelessness I'm not going to be bothered.  Because that's what we're gong to be doing.  If any of us wants to take a rollup round seriously then they can - doesn't change my approach.
		
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I would hope my club does not do this. I would think about leaving, yes, as for me, golf would cease to be fun. Either that, or I will forever be in front of the committee for not taking it seriously, because I won't. Trouble is, leave, and it could be introduced next place you join.
I like playing in the roll ups. I would not want to be a member that only plays with the same small group all the time. That is not club membership to me.

Gimmees never bother me. In general I am a good putter, and don't miss many short putts. My shots are wasted more by taking on silly shots long before I get near the green.


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## patricks148 (Mar 9, 2021)

DRW said:



			Dogs are allowed at quite a number of courses(lots don't allow dogs), for example :-

Dogs Play For Free At Sunningdale Golf Club | Only A Game (wbur.org)

Click to expand...

i used to take my old GSP with me every time i played Tain, Dornoch or Brora, he was very handy for finding yours or your PP ball, even taken him to open comps


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I would hope my club does not do this. I would think about leaving, yes, as for me, golf would cease to be fun. Either that, or I will forever be in front of the committee for not taking it seriously, because I won't. Trouble is, leave, and it could be introduced next place you join.
I like playing in the roll ups. I would not want to be a member that only plays with the same small group all the time. That is not club membership to me.

Gimmees never bother me. In general I am a good putter, and don't miss many short putts. My shots are wasted more by taking on silly shots long before I get near the green.
		
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But you don't have to take a counting round seriously.  You just don't - you just play it as you would have played it before WHS - just as much fun as before.  If in my playing of a rollup round for fun, in the way I always have, I end up with me having a rubbish score, then it will just be one of the 12 in my 20 that won't count.  In fact none of my rubbish rollup rounds might *ever *be in my best 8 - they'll never matter.  And I suggest that nobody is ever going to be worried about your rubbish scores unless perhaps it becomes obvious that you are deliberately messing up rounds to avoid good scores. But I believe these are exceptions - always have been there and those who do it or are suspected of doing it are usually known.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If in my playing of a rollup round for fun, in the way I always have, I end up with me having a rubbish score, then it will just be one of the 12 in my 20 that won't count.  In fact none of my rubbish rollup rounds might *ever *be in my best 8 - they'll never matter.
		
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Eh? What happens when you hit 13 rubbish roll-ups?


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			- they'll never matter. .
		
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They may never make it to your best 8 but they can still have an effect on your index if they make your very best counting score your 21st and therefore off the list.
It may only be a small effect but it could still change your index.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Eh? What happens when you hit 13 rubbish roll-ups?
		
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One will count in your 8 best rounds and have an impact - though probably not a significant impact - on your H/I

I can see that a devious individual might well just play in such as counting roll-ups and score rubbish in all - with the excuse he was just playing for fun - and his H/I will reflect that rubbish.  And then he enters a major with his duff H/I and scoots it.  Same as it ever was.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			They may never make it to your best 8 but they can still have an effect on your index if they make your very best counting score your 21st and therefore off the list.
It may only be a small effect but it could still change your index.
		
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Yes indeed - but only if I don't have a score in my other 11 better than 'todays' rubbish rollup score - and that 'other' score may well also change my index.  

Strangely this has switched from not wanting to put in good scores from casual golf as the pressure isn't so great so H/I adjustment *down *wouldn't be 'fair', to the impact of rubbish scores from casual golf, as there's no pressure and a H/I adjustment *up *wouldn't be 'fair'...


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## KenL (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm not being pedantic but surely you understand the difference between a competitive round mindset and a bounce game mindset? I can shoot low 70's in a medal but I'm not the least bit worried if I shoot mid 80's having a laugh with my mates. If I submit more cards yes there is more data but it's not a true reflection of my golfing ability. Based on those bounce games my handicap could go up 4 or 5 shots but you are saying that's OK because I've submitted lots of cards?
		
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Surely if you chose to submit a card you would concentrate whether it was a bounce game or not?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

KenL said:



			Surely if you chose to submit a card you would concentrate whether it was a bounce game or not?
		
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I might not to start with, but if after 9 I found that I had a good score going I'd almost certainly start to concentrate more - then it'd fall apart.


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## IanM (Mar 9, 2021)

KenL said:



			Surely if you chose to submit a card you would concentrate whether it was a bounce game or not?
		
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Actually, I think that is the exact opposite of of what was intended.   

Google definition of "a bounce game in golf" "A *bounce game* is a casual knock among friends, non qualifying."   So by submitting a card (or not) you are immediately changing the context of the game.


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## DanFST (Mar 9, 2021)

So in summary. 

People will complain if you don't hand in any non comp cards and win a comp. 
People will complain if you do hand in comp cards and win a comp. 



End thread.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

KenL said:



			Surely if you chose to submit a card you would concentrate whether it was a bounce game or not?
		
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I would yes but it seems some people are advocating that every round should be submitted and I think it highly unlikely in those instances that they will concentrate fully all the time.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I would yes but it seems some people are advocating that every round should be submitted and I think it highly unlikely in those instances that they will concentrate fully all the time.
		
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But if my only golf is roll ups, and comps, and all roll ups count, then that is every card. Could be 4 cards a week from June. Pretty much 20 cards a month. No way am I even close to concentrating, or giving a monkey's that often.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 9, 2021)

My worry is that its just eating away at friendly games of golf,  its already hard enough to have a bounce game with the number of comps and swindles and sweeps and roll ups.  Now every second person wants to hand a card in, which is their right.

I just miss someone standing on the tee and saying let's play a texas scramble, or whos up for greensomes for a laugh.  Lets play a 3 club comp.  

There just seems to be less and less room for that.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Do you ever go out in the evening after a stressful day at work just to unwind, enjoy the sunshine and maybe try new swing thoughts?
		
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Not really. It was the original plan when i joined where I am, but never really materialised. Now I just go & play with the lads 3-4 times a week (including comps when they're on.

But in my head, that's practice - and there's  the thing.   For me, golf is (sort of) split into three things - competitions, non-competition,  and practice. I'll try to play the best I can in competion and non-competition golf, and I'll have as much fun as I can in non-competition and practice. Just because something is not a competition doesnt mean I wont try my best. I just might not take it seriously.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But if my only golf is roll ups, and comps, and all roll ups count, then that is every card. Could be 4 cards a week from June. Pretty much 20 cards a month. No way am I even close to concentrating, or giving a monkey's that often.
		
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Yep, if I choose to submit a card I will concentrate but I wouldn't be happy if every round I played was a counting card. Having witnessed a lot of rounds in the USA under WHS I have seen with my own eyes that the system is too open to abuse.


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've walked my dog on a course in the past whilst I played, hotel course, I knew I'd be the only one there. She careered around the place, totally out of control. Great fun but I never did it again.
		
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You weren't the bloke with the spaniel at the Worsley Marriott in August last year were you? 😂

The guy was putting out on the par 5 18th and we were waiting to tee off as everytime one of us would step up to the tee this bonkers spaniel would come busting out of the undergrowth right beside us. Once he'd finished he came trundling back up to get his dog.

Seemed a friendly little thing like 👍.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So in summary.

People will complain if you don't hand in any non comp cards and win a comp.
People will complain if you do hand in comp cards and win a comp.



End thread.
		
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Indeed plus

Some people will complain that a rubbish score in a 'casual comp' could impact their H/I
Some people will complain that a great score in a 'casual comp' could impact their H/I 

Ah well


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yep, if I choose to submit a card I will concentrate but I wouldn't be happy if every round I played was a counting card. Having witnessed a lot of rounds in the USA under WHS I have seen with my own eyes that the system is too open to abuse.
		
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The US system was weird though. Whilst you had, in theory, to count every round, you only ever had to enter the total gross score. Not per hole, just the total. So there were players who play on Saturday, log in on Monday, and enter 92. No more detail than that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I would yes but it seems some people are advocating that every round should be submitted and I think it highly unlikely in those instances that they will concentrate fully all the time.
		
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I don't think that that is the case.  It isn't at my club even although we have decided that the five main rollups held each week (three gents and two ladies) should now be counting rounds.  I don't know of any intention to extend counting rounds any further into our casual/social golf.  If one (or more) of a casual four ball (say) wants to put in counting card(s) they just pre-register and have their score validated by another of the group.  That is no different from how previously we put in a supplementary.


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2021)

ger147 said:



			In practice, the way it works now is:

- to get cut, you need to beat your 8th best score.
- if your 20th score is one of your best 8, you have to equal it for your index to stay the same. If you don't, your 9th best score takes its place as your new 8th best score and therefore you will most likely get a small increase.
		
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Thank you, but I am very well versed in sucking eggs.

My post - a weak attempt at humour - attempted to point out that your description of your "best 8" as "counters" could cause a little confusion as I, and many others, are using "counting" as referring to all rounds played for handicap purposes.


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## ger147 (Mar 9, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Thank you, but I am very well versed in sucking eggs.

My post - a weak attempt at humour - attempted to point out that your description of your "best 8" as "counters" could cause a little confusion as I, and many others, are using "counting" as referring to all rounds played for handicap purposes.
		
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It wasn't my post you originally replied to, I never used the term "counters"...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 9, 2021)

HeftyHacker said:



			You weren't the bloke with the spaniel at the Worsley Marriott in August last year were you? 😂

The guy was putting out on the par 5 18th and we were waiting to tee off as everytime one of us would step up to the tee this bonkers spaniel would come busting out of the undergrowth right beside us. Once he'd finished he came trundling back up to get his dog.

Seemed a friendly little thing like 👍.
		
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Ha ha, no but that it was she would have been like. She ran through every bunker, across every fairway, in and out of the woods. She had the time of her life. The course was teeming with wildlife so the smells for a spaniel to follow were fabulous. I had a wonderful image of her lying next to me whilst I took a shot and then trotting alongside, as I had seen done by others. It did not go to plan though . If you can't control your dog perfectly then you should not take them on the course with other people out there, no matter how cute they are.


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## DanFST (Mar 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you can't control your dog perfectly then you should not take them on the course with other people out there, no matter how cute they are.
		
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I'm in the minority, but I *completely* disagree. 

They are all good boys and girls, I would love hundreds of dogs running around being silly.


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## IanM (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			The US system was weird,  there were players who play on Saturday, log in on Monday, and enter 92. No more detail than that.
		
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I've played with them on holiday!!   Put me down for 79 dude!  (Didn't break 100)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

IanM said:



			I've played with them on holiday!!   Put me down for 79 dude!  (Didn't break 100)
		
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Yep, these are the very guys I referred to in an early earlier.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I would yes but it seems some people are advocating that every round should be submitted
		
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As one of those who will be submitting lots of cards, I think this is where ‘our side’ of the argument is getting twisted slightly.

Unless I’m mistaken, nobody is saying you literally can’t step foot on a golf course without putting a card in. What is being said is that if you’re playing 18 holes on a measured course, and playing within the rules of golf, then there’s no reason to ‘not’ put that score in - particularly if you’re already keeping score for the purposes of a roll up / dink. 

And has been said loads, if you’re playing crap or amazing, it’s not going to affect your handicap enough to garner a hugely significant change either way, particularly as there are caps on handicap going up, and you’re always taking an average of 8 - so even spectacular rounds won’t get you chopped loads.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 9, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm in the minority, but I *completely* disagree.

They are all good boys and girls, I would love hundreds of dogs running around being silly.
		
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The problem with online forums is that nobody will let me just enjoy this image in my head without pointing out the dangers and downsides. 

But this would be wonderful place!


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Unless I’m mistaken, nobody is saying you literally can’t step foot on a golf course without putting a card in. What is being said is that if you’re playing 18 holes on a measured course, and playing within the rules of golf, then there’s no reason to ‘not’ put that score in - particularly if you’re already keeping score for the purposes of a roll up / dink.
		
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But as in SiLH case previously stated, all main roll ups at his will be expected to put their cards in. To me, this is just wrong. Any one within that group can decide to, that's fine, but having counting rounds forced on you, because you play in certain roll ups is just wrong. I hope my club do not try to implement this.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 9, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm in the minority, but I *completely* disagree.

They are all good boys and girls, I would love hundreds of dogs running around being silly.
		
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Start a separate thread, I'll get the popcorn


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But as in SiLH case previously stated, all main roll ups at his will be expected to put their cards in. To me, this is just wrong. Any one within that group can decide to, that's fine, but having counting rounds forced on you, because you play in certain roll ups is just wrong. I hope my club do not try to implement this.
		
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But as I also said - we can play the rollups in exactly the same way as we always have - with exactly the same mindset as we currenty do - if we wish -  that it's just a friendly round of golf.  If it turns out to be a great round - then great, if it's rubbish - then no big deal.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So in summary.

People will complain if you don't hand in any non comp cards and win a comp.
People will complain if you do hand in comp cards and win a comp.



End thread.
		
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I can reduce your (and Hogan's) ruleset as follows:

People will complain if you don't do the same as them.

Fin.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But as I also said - we can play the rollups in exactly the same way as we always have - with exactly the same mindset as we currenty do - if we wish -  that it's just a friendly round of golf.  If it turns out to be a great round - then great, if it's rubbish - then no big deal.
		
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But you still have to put cards in.

You still don't get it. You might be fine with it, but according to the votes on here, 40% will not be. That does not make the 60% correct, it's just a different opinion, that is now being forced on the 40% by your club.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

jimbob.someroo said:



			As one of those who will be submitting lots of cards, I think this is where ‘our side’ of the argument is getting twisted slightly.

Unless I’m mistaken, nobody is saying you literally can’t step foot on a golf course without putting a card in. *What is being said is that if you’re playing 18 holes on a measured course, and playing within the rules of golf, then there’s no reason to ‘not’ put that score in - particularly if you’re already keeping score for the purposes of a roll up / dink.*

And has been said loads, if you’re playing crap or amazing, it’s not going to affect your handicap enough to garner a hugely significant change either way, particularly as there are caps on handicap going up, and you’re always taking an average of 8 - so even spectacular rounds won’t get you chopped loads.
		
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Lots of people quite simply don't want to put a card in. If they are having a knock with their mates and lose a ball they might not want to walk back because there is a possibility they could still score a point if they do so. Or they might not want to hole out every putt when they are 99% certain they will hole from 3ft. Or they might duff a chip and want to pull the ball back and have another go. I will play loads of competitions this year (hopefully) and I'm sure I will also submit additional counting scores but I will only do so when it suits me. If that means that I play 100 non counting rounds then so be it.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 9, 2021)

Boomy said:



			You must mean playing on a local park or something! My mind would be blown 🤯 if someone actually took a dog with them when they play on a proper golf course 😂 That and talking on a mobile at all. Why would anybody do that in reality.
		
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Actually the better the golf course - the more dogs you see!  There are probably 10 or 15 dogs that are out regularly.  

Sunningdale and The Berkshire would usually have more groups with dogs (plural) then without any at all.  Goodwood actually have a membership for dogs and they all get a bow with their name on it in the clubhouse!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Actually the better the golf course - the more dogs you see!  There are probably 10 or 15 dogs that are out regularly. 

Sunningdale and The Berkshire would usually have more groups with dogs (plural) then without any at all.  Goodwood actually have a membership for dogs and they all get a bow with their name on it in the clubhouse!
		
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I like courses that allow dogs, something kinda 'traditional' and genteel about it.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

At mine, dogs used to only be allowed to be 5 day members, and couldn't play at weekends. 
I think they can now be full 7 day dogs.


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## jim8flog (Mar 9, 2021)

DRW said:



			Dogs are allowed at quite a number of courses(lots don't allow dogs), for example :-

Dogs Play For Free At Sunningdale Golf Club | Only A Game (wbur.org)

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 We had a members vote on it  and the number of Nos was well in excess of the Yesses.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But you still have to put cards in.

You still don't get it. You might be fine with it, but according to the votes on here, 40% will not be. That does not make the 60% correct, it's just a different opinion, that is now being forced on the 40% by your club.
		
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It is being required of us, but when I thought it through I realised it need not make any difference whatsoever to how I play our rollup.  We have been booking into it and scoring it through the clubs IG for a year now, and so we just keep doing the same.  Prior to using IG we handed our cards in for the rollup comp.  The only difference now is that behind the scenes the round goes into my pot of 20.  That it’s now a counting round I now realise I can simply ignore - that it counts for my pot is a complete by-the-by.


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## MendieGK (Mar 9, 2021)

Got bored of reading 13 pages of this but I’ll be entering cards most rounds. 

I think the reason people struggle so much in competitions is because they differentiate so much between social and competitive. They take comps so seriously when winning a monthly medal actually means tit all. 

Outside of scratch comps IMO your handicap is the only trophy that matters. No one ever says ‘oh how many board comps have you won?’ That ask ‘what’s your handicap?’

I actually find social/non competitive golf a little hard work. Would much rather be playing with mates, have a card in my hand and get the best of both worlds.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is being required of us, but when I thought it through I realised it need not make any difference whatsoever to how I play our rollup.  We have been booking into it and scoring it through the clubs IG for a year now, and so we just keep doing the same.  Prior to using IG we handed our cards in for the rollup comp.  The only difference now is that behind the scenes the round goes into my pot of 20.  That it’s now a counting round I now realise I can simply ignore - that it counts for my pot is a complete by-the-by.
		
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Yes, you have said, numerous times how you are going to deal with it. We are all different. The point is still, that for 40% of your swindle, your golf club are making them put a card in when they don't want to. It really is not hard to understand. Not everyone thinks like you, or wants to.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

Has there been a definitive "Roll ups are comps" decision or is it being left to clubs..?
I'm fine with putting  non competition cards in when you want but not fine with being told when that will be....


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## Bdill93 (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Lots of people quite simply don't want to put a card in. If they are having a knock with their mates and lose a ball they might not want to walk back because there is a possibility they could still score a point if they do so. Or they might not want to hole out every putt when they are 99% certain they will hole from 3ft. Or they might duff a chip and want to pull the ball back and have another go. I will play loads of competitions this year (hopefully) and I'm sure I will also submit additional counting scores but I will only do so when it suits me. If that means that I play 100 non counting rounds then so be it.
		
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A score not played within the rules cant be submitted can it... No ones suggesting to submit those.

I think @Imurg summed it up well earlier this thread with the "card in hand" rounds argument.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Has there been a definitive "Roll ups are comps" decision or is it being left to clubs..?
I'm fine with putting  non competition cards in when you want but not fine with being told when that will be....
		
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I believe at the moment it is down to individual clubs. I hope my club does not take the view that Hughs club have done.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is being required of us, but when I thought it through I realised it need not make any difference whatsoever to how I play our rollup.  We have been booking into it and scoring it through the clubs IG for a year now, and so we just keep doing the same.  Prior to using IG we handed our cards in for the rollup comp.  The only difference now is that behind the scenes the round goes into my pot of 20.  That it’s now a counting round I now realise I can simply ignore - that it counts for my pot is a complete by-the-by.
		
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It's not made a difference _to you _because _your _rollups are different to _our _rollups.

_My _rollups are all bounce games with gimmes and adjusted handicap of a two shot cut if you won the pot the previous week.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Yes, you have said, numerous times how you are going to deal with it. We are all different. The point is still, that for 40% of your swindle, your golf club are making them put a card in when they don't want to. It really is not hard to understand. Not everyone thinks like you, or wants to.
		
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Out of interest - what is your swindle doing? Have they communicated anything out to you about this subject? Can you choose or will it be forced upon you?


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## Bdill93 (Mar 9, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			It's not made a difference _to you _because _your _rollups are different to _our _rollups.

_My _rollups are all bounce games with gimmes and adjusted handicap of a two shot cut if you won the pot the previous week.
		
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I though you couldnt submit a round with gimmies for handicap purposes - even under whs? (They can in America - its the culture over there)


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I believe at the moment it is down to individual clubs. I hope my club does not take the view that Hughs club have done.
		
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I think if enough of you kick up a stink or at least express your opinions strongly you may get them on your side.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Out of interest - what is your swindle doing? Have they communicated anything out to you about this subject? Can you choose or will it be forced upon you?
		
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No swindle til May, and the organisers at present run them how they want, but no cards are submitted, unless the individual is doing a supplementary. It will not be down to the organiser to decide that these rounds count for handicap.
 If the edict comes from the handicap secretary, that is when it will become more difficult.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I think if enough of you kick up a stink or at least express your opinions strongly you may get them on your side.
		
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Very much depends on whether the few who make the decisions at committee level are open minded, or closed minded on this.

One thing that will always be in their minds is how much money the roll ups generate, and how much of the atmosphere in the club house is dependant on roll ups.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			I though you couldnt submit a round with gimmies for handicap purposes
		
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You can't and we won't. That's almost the entire point being made?


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			You can't and we won't. That's almost the entire point being made?
		
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But if the club say it's an organised thingy, and say you have to, then you will have to put out, and put the cards in. It's down to the club I guess.


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## DanFST (Mar 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Start a separate thread, I'll get the popcorn 

Click to expand...

I can take the general negativity on here, but not towards dogs.

If i start a thread I'll get a ban.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			It's not made a difference _to you _because _your _rollups are different to _our _rollups.

_My _rollups are all bounce games with gimmes and adjusted handicap of a two shot cut if you won the pot the previous week.
		
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Which is just as mine.  Except our rollup handicap is cut 0.1 for every £1 of the pot the top 3 win.

In our four ball groups we also usually agree amongst ourselves to play a 4BBB match alongside our rollup individual comp.  Going forward for that 4BBB match gimmes will continue to be given - just that we'll then have to hole out for the rollup comp (for WHS purposes).  We'll score our rollup card in accordance with our club/course playing handicap and that will go into our WHS pot of 20.  For the rollup comp I think that the organisers will then simply manually apply any rollup handicap adjustments to find the rollup 1-2-3.

That the club also runs a 'pay-on-day' stableford comp every Sat and Sun that we can enter alongside our rollup, and the way the roll-ups are run, means that it is really easy making the roll-ups WHS counting rounds - as they are often for many of us also club Sat/Sun stableford qualifier comp rounds.  I get that that will not be the case for every roll-up.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But if the club say it's an organised thingy, and say you have to, then you will have to put out, and put the cards in. It's down to the club I guess.
		
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If a club chooses to act that way, sure, but why would they? I think they'd be daft to do that. Our rollups aren't an authorized format of play so scores aren't acceptable for handicap purposes, it's consistent with the WHS Rules of Handicapping.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Lots of people quite simply don't want to put a card in. If they are having a knock with their mates and lose a ball they might not want to walk back because there is a possibility they could still score a point if they do so. Or they might not want to hole out every putt when they are 99% certain they will hole from 3ft. Or they might duff a chip and want to pull the ball back and have another go. I will play loads of competitions this year (hopefully) and I'm sure I will also submit additional counting scores but I will only do so when it suits me. If that means that I play 100 non counting rounds then so be it.
		
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Which is the point I made, and the one people are choosing to ignore.

If you’re doing those things (which are all absolutely fine) you’re not playing to the rules of golf, and thus shouldn’t be expected to put a score in.

But if you’re keeping score as part of a swindle / roll-up / society or whatever you want to call it, then the whole point of WHS is that these become a part of your handicap, so that it can accurately reflect where you’re at.

Again, nobody is suggesting that you shouldn’t be able to have dick about rounds where you drop a couple of balls down for chipping practice, lord knows I’ll be doing that. But anytime I play 18 holes and play by the rules, I’ll be putting a card in.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is just as mine.  Except our rollup handicap is cut 0.1 for every £1 of the pot the top 3 win.

In our four ball groups we also usually agree amongst ourselves to play a 4BBB match alongside our rollup individual comp.  Going forward for that 4BBB match gimmes will continue to be given - just that we'll then have to hole out for the rollup comp (for WHS purposes).  We'll score our rollup card in accordance with our club/course playing handicap and that will go into our WHS pot of 20.  For the rollup comp I think that the organisers will then simply manually apply any rollup handicap adjustments to find the rollup 1-2-3.

That the club also runs a 'pay-on-day' stableford comp every Sat and Sun that we can enter alongside our rollup, and the way the roll-ups are run, means that it is really easy making the roll-ups WHS counting rounds - as they are often for many of us also club Sat/Sun stableford qualifier comp rounds.  I get that that will not be the case for every roll-up.
		
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I think you've made this all unnecessarily complex but you've forced me into wasting time reading the rules to check my understanding. 

In my case, the club in question has determined our rollups are neither an authorized format nor an organized competition. Two simple reasons, 1. we don't pre-register, its balls out a hat. 2. we don't adhere to the rules of golf with gimmes.

In terms of submitting scores for handicap purposes as a result nothing has changed nor needs to change. So again, what _your _club chooses to do is not what _my _club chooses to do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is just as mine.  Except our rollup handicap is cut 0.1 for every £1 of the pot the top 3 win.

In our four ball groups we also usually agree amongst ourselves to play a 4BBB match alongside our rollup individual comp.  Going forward for that 4BBB match gimmes will continue to be given - just that we'll then have to hole out for the rollup comp (for WHS purposes).  We'll score our rollup card in accordance with our club/course playing handicap and that will go into our WHS pot of 20.  For the rollup comp I think that the organisers will then simply manually apply any rollup handicap adjustments to find the rollup 1-2-3.

That the club also runs a 'pay-on-day' stableford comp every Sat and Sun that we can enter alongside our rollup, and the way the roll-ups are run, means that it is really easy making the roll-ups WHS counting rounds - as they are often for many of us also club Sat/Sun stableford qualifier comp rounds.  I get that that will not be the case for every roll-up.
		
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So you will have a gimmie in the 4BBB match and then the person has been given the gimmie will also have to hole out for a scorecard 🤷‍♂️

Blimey talk about making things complicated 

A club can’t force roll ups to submit cards - it seems your roll up is just making things beyond complicated for themselves and making it awkward and recipe for all sorts of issues. 

It should be very simple 

Scorecard goes in for an organised club competition 

If someone wants to put in a General Play card , they pre registers on the app , play the round under competition conditions and enter score

Anyone else just crack on and play how you like


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

jimbob.someroo said:



			If you’re doing those things (which are all absolutely fine) you’re not playing to the rules of golf, and thus shouldn’t be expected to put a score in. 

But if you’re keeping score as part of a swindle / roll-up / society or whatever you want to call it, then the whole point of WHS is that these become a part of your handicap, so that it can accurately reflect where you’re at.
		
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You're missing the union of the two, a third clause. Keeping score in a swindle / roll-up / society while not playing to the rules of golf so can't form part of your handicap.

That's what the 41.3% answering no in the poll represent.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 9, 2021)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Which is the point I made, and the one people are choosing to ignore.

If you’re doing those things (which are all absolutely fine) you’re not playing to the rules of golf, and thus shouldn’t be expected to put a score in.

But if you’re keeping score as part of a swindle / roll-up / society or whatever you want to call it, then the whole point of WHS is that these become a part of your handicap, so that it can accurately reflect where you’re at.

Again, nobody is suggesting that you shouldn’t be able to have dick about rounds where you drop a couple of balls down for chipping practice, lord knows I’ll be doing that. But anytime I play 18 holes and play by the rules, I’ll be putting a card in.
		
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Yeah I get that. I'll decide on the day if I want to submit a card or not depending on the conditions, who I'm playing with and basically whether or not I can be bothered. A lot of the time I won't simply because I won't want to.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 9, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			You're missing the union of the two, a third clause. Keeping score in a swindle / roll-up / society while not playing to the rules of golf so can't form part of your handicap.

That's what the 41.3% answering no in the poll represent.
		
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Perhaps, but I’ve never played in a roll-up / swindle etc with cash on the line where people aren’t fussed about the rules - with the possible exception of gimmes which are only there to speed play up (... if you can miss, it’s not a gimme). But I can’t believe the strength of opposition to this is because people don’t want to hole 1ft putts?

I genuinely just find it rather gung-ho that 41.3% have said that they will NEVER pop a card in outside of a club competition, even if they know exactly what they shot, particularly as clubs have been asked to encourage members to do this in the formats we’re discussing.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yeah I get that. I'll decide on the day if I want to submit a card or not depending on the conditions, who I'm playing with and basically whether or not I can be bothered. A lot of the time I won't simply because I won't want to.
		
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This is exactly what I will do, I guess it’s just likely that my criteria for when I will pop a card in will be different. And on the days I don’t, I’ll hit a few balls and practice chipping etc.

I genuinely don’t think anyone is arguing that you shouldn’t be able to do this. But at the same time, if I turn up and know that I’m going to be playing 18 holes and not just practicing, I’ll almost always put the card in. If after a few holes I’m playing crap, I’ll practice for the rest of the round knowing that this score won’t be in my ‘top 8’. Conversely, if I’m playing alright, it gives me something to concentrate on for the rest of the round which I found so much more beneficial and enjoyable when we could do this for a brief month pre-Xmas!


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## jim8flog (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Has there been a definitive "Roll ups are comps" decision or is it being left to clubs..?
I'm fine with putting  non competition cards in when you want but not fine with being told when that will be....
		
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 It is up to the club to decide. Rules Of Handicapping 2.1a(iii)


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## KenL (Mar 9, 2021)

DRW said:



			Dogs are allowed at quite a number of courses(lots don't allow dogs), for example :-

Dogs Play For Free At Sunningdale Golf Club | Only A Game (wbur.org)

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Dogs are allowed on a lead at my club, they are always great company.
However, they are now allowed during comps. A pity as they don't swear like troopers or chuck clubs like some of the humans.


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## jim8flog (Mar 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Mate of mine plays off +1 but he sliced through the tendons in his hand 3 weeks ago. Unlikely he will be able to grip a club properly for 6 months so how does he get a handicap that reflects his current ability during the summer?
		
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 for interest looking for something else I found this

7.1a/2 – Handicap Committee Applied Adjustment For Injured Player
Must Be Based On Scores Made After Injury
The Handicap Committee should only consider adjusting a player’s Handicap
Index for injury after one or more acceptable scores have been submitted after
the injury occurred. In determining the level of any adjustment, the Handicap
Committee should take into consideration the scores submitted after the injury
and the nature and severity of the injury.
After a number of scores have been submitted and it becomes evident that the
injury has caused a permanent change to the player’s ability, it may be
appropriate to disregard the player’s scoring record and allocate a Handicap
Index using only the scores submitted since the injury (see Rule 5.2a).


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## upsidedown (Mar 9, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			It is up to the club to decide. Rules Of Handicapping 2.1a(iii)
		
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Our match chair has been in touch with WHS help desk to clarify for our "Fiddle" if it was an individual as opposed to the normal 4BBB and there answer was *Why wouldn’t players want the scores used for handicap purposes, to reflect their current ability?*
However thy do go onto say it's up to individual clubs .

As regards putting in cards, from my experience of playing under the NZ version of WHS for 6 years I hated the first 6 or so  weeks but then adapted to their system and 80% of my rounds were then used for handicap and it soon took away the feeling of fearing the Comp as it meant I had a card in my hand . I feel this adjustment made me a better player as I felt more relaxed. I've always been of the mindset to get my handicap as low as possible and if on the way I win something that's a bonus so looking forward to the 31st when i will be putting my first GP card in .


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## Oddsocks (Mar 9, 2021)

If we are allowed to use the white tee’s on non comp days then I’ll still submit, if not then I don’t see the point.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 9, 2021)

KenL said:



			Vanity.
I haven't heard of anyone who has gone up putting in scores under WHS.
		
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Well I can attest we have several players who have gone up sufficient to hit their soft cap under WHS.

In winter conditions the vast majority have gone up


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## SammmeBee (Mar 9, 2021)

Oddsocks said:



			If we are allowed to use the white tee’s on non comp days then I’ll still submit, if not then I don’t see the point.
		
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Why can’t you?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			It is up to the club to decide. Rules Of Handicapping 2.1a(iii)
		
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Which is what my club has done in the fullest spirit of WHS.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 9, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Why can’t you?
		
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you can, I just don’t think I will.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what my club has done in the fullest spirit of WHS.
		
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“Fullest spirit of WHS”

What is that supposed to mean 

Did you all put supplementary cards in previously ? If not why not ?


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## Jimaroid (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what my club has done in the fullest spirit of WHS.
		
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There’s nothing less than the fullest spirit to do! All clubs are following the full implementation of WHS - the WHS permits clubs to do different things if that’s what they choose to do. 

I’m out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			“Fullest spirit of WHS”

What is that supposed to mean

Did you all put supplementary cards in previously ? If not why not ?
		
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It’s quite simply that our rollups are fully organised individual competitions that we enter in advance, and the WHS would like all such rounds to count towards our 20.  It is still the clubs choice and I was told my club is doing it to comply with the request from WHS as fully as possible and in the spirit that the more rounds that can count towards our h/i the better reflection our h/i will be.  

And yes most of us did because most of us from time to time played in the ‘enter on the day’ Saturday or Sunday stablefords held every week.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s quite simply that our rollups are fully organised individual competitions and the WHS would like all such rounds to count towards our 20.  Still the clubs choice whether or not to do that and I was told my club is doing it to comply with the request from WHS as fully as possible.  And yes most of us did because most of us from time to time played in the ‘enter on the day’ Saturday or Sunday stablefords held every week.
		
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well entering a stableford comp is not putting in a supplementary card  - that’s playing in a club competition , did you put in supplementary cards when not playing in the competition 

Our roll ups are also fully organised individual competitions , and the club can’t do anything if the roll decides no putting out and the club can’t also stop the whole roll up entering a general play scorecard 

At the end of the day any score card enter must be played under competition conditions hence why it’s far too much of a mess to play 4BBB matchplay whilst playing a single strokeplay - as I said earlier you suggest you do gimmies for the 4bbb but then putt out 🤷‍♂️

Have the club made is compulsory that all roll ups submit cards ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			well entering a stableford comp is not putting in a supplementary card  - that’s playing in a club competition , did you put in supplementary cards when not playing in the competition

Our roll ups are also fully organised individual competitions , and the club can’t do anything if the roll decides no putting out and the club can’t also stop the whole roll up entering a general play scorecard

At the end of the day any score card enter must be played under competition conditions hence why it’s far too much of a mess to play 4BBB matchplay whilst playing a single strokeplay - as I said earlier you suggest you do gimmies for the 4bbb but then putt out 🤷‍♂️

Have the club made is compulsory that all roll ups submit cards ?
		
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Compulsory? - for the five main ones - Yes. Unless things have changed during the lockdown.

And as I mentioned that is no big deal for the gents rollups at least as we submit a card for these already.

All that will happen now is we must hole out - and we can and will easily do that even if in our 4BBB match a putt has already been given  (that could be messy as you suggest but I don’t think it will be as we already do this when playing the sat club stableford alongside the rollup) and instead of the score just going into the rollup book - the card also goes into WHS.

I think the new arrangements will work fine for our rollups as it will be minimal - in some instances absolutely no change from what we already do.

I get that that might not be the case for all clubs and rollups.


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2021)

ger147 said:



			It wasn't my post you originally replied to, I never used the term "counters"...
		
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No, but, confusingly again, you replied to my response to Red Scorpion's post.


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## ger147 (Mar 9, 2021)

rosecott said:



			No, but, confusingly again, you replied to my response to Red Scorpion's post.
		
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Just clearing up your error re. you stating my post using the term "counters" could cause confusion when in actual fact it was not my post 👍🏻


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## KenL (Mar 10, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Well I can attest we have several players who have gone up sufficient to hit their soft cap under WHS.

In winter conditions the vast majority have gone up
		
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Interesting. My course is way easier over the winter (shorter but still allowing WHS scores), rough all cut back, plenty bunkers being renovated, often less windy than spring/summer.

Chap I know, playing handicap down from 18 at the start of WHS to 11.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 10, 2021)

KenL said:



			Interesting. My course is way easier over the winter (shorter but still allowing WHS scores), rough all cut back, plenty bunkers being renovated, often less windy than spring/summer.

Chap I know, playing handicap down from 18 at the start of WHS to 11.
		
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A bit of context here as the period in question was between WHS go live in November and lockdown.

The weather was aweful and the conditions very wet. We have lots of members who got into the habit of putting cards in prior to WHS introduction and thus in some cases were putting in 3 or 4 cards a week. Many of these were now flushing out cards played under summer conditions and hence the rise in Handicap Index.

I suspect over the course of a season most handicaps will move a couple of shots *up and down) over time rather than the more flat nature of the old system.

I'm not sure a slightly easier course would be the main reason for a seven shot reduction alone but more we did see some major changes when WHS was introduced.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

I tend to return about 30 cards per year from comps so I haven't felt the need to return more. My view might change from now on when I look at the "20th ago" score that I will be replacing. It will depend on the weather and conditions. Make hay while the sun shines. My only interest is to get my handicap down. (current HI = 4.3) That has been my mindset for 50 years and it will not change. I have heard others talk about handing in a general play round (or two) to get their handicap up by one shot prior to the next club comp or knockout. Despicable! I've got only one way to play golf and that is always try to score as best as you can.


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