# Disqualification..Wrong Net Score???



## sJoe (Dec 17, 2011)

HI

My partner and I recently played in a 4BBB Stableford Comp. with an allowance of 3/4 handicaps. We were disqualified for signing for the wrong net score..
My partners handicap is 18.5, playing handicap 19 stroke allowance therefore 14.25 (14) he mistakenly entered 15. I didn't pick up on this and the round was played using 15 as his allowance..However his handicap on the card stated 19.. all Gross scores on the 18 holes played were entered  correctly..My question is this, under the rules of golf. Rule 32 b a competitor/marker is responsible for the Gross score, and making sure his playing handicap is correctly entered, both of which were done..The net score and adjustment of handicap allowance to achieve the net score is the responsibility of the committee. Rule 33.5  
I feel we should not have been disqualified, the adjustment to our score should have been made by the committee and our amended score used.  It would have made a difference of 1 point over the whole round by the way..
Am I correct or is the committee correct in disqualifying us.

Many thanks


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## rosecott (Dec 17, 2011)

You are 100% correct that you cannot be disqualified for an incorrect nett score if the correct gross scores were recorded and signed for by both marker and player. How were you notified of the disqualification? As far as I am aware, handicapping software would not allow such a disqualification in the procesing of scorecards.


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## chrisd (Dec 17, 2011)

So, as I read things, he calculated his playing handicap as 15 instead of 14 and played on the day off a higher handicap than he should. I think that DQ is the only possibility


Chris


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## sJoe (Dec 17, 2011)

Hi Chirs
my point is that the allowance of 15 is NOT the handicap it is a net allowance, from which the net score is calculated..His handicap was correct 19 the gross scores correct.. I must admit I agree with rosecott, see above, but then I would.. Im going to take it up with the committee, will let you know how it turns out


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## sJoe (Dec 17, 2011)

Thanks rosecott..great minds etc LOL


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## Ethan (Dec 17, 2011)

So long as he has recorded his accurate handicap (i.e. not higher than actually the case) and an accurate score for each hole, the rest is down to the committee, including applying the 3/4, adding up each 9 and the 18, and subtracting the handicap allowance from the gross. 

That is explicit in the Rules and any Comp Sec that doesn't know it should be fired.

There is also a decision 6-2b/0.5 which confirms that, in this case, recording the handicap of 19 is sufficient. Tell your mate to challenge the DQ and appeal to the R&A if the DQ is not reversed. 

Q: It is the condition of a stroke-play competition (e.g. four-ball) that players will not receive their full handicap allowances. Under Rule 6-2b, what is the player responsible for recording on his score card?

A: He must record his full handicap. It is the Committee's responsibility to apply the condition of competition to adjust his handicap.


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## chrisd (Dec 17, 2011)

sJoe said:



			Hi Chirs
my point is that the allowance of 15 is NOT the handicap it is a net allowance, from which the net score is calculated..His handicap was correct 19 the gross scores correct.. I must admit I agree with rosecott, see above, but then I would.. Im going to take it up with the committee, will let you know how it turns out
		
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I would like to be wrong and likely am. Normally I would do a check before posting but I'm laid up and took the lazy way out


Chris


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## Ethan (Dec 17, 2011)

chrisd said:



			I would like to be wrong and likely am. Normally I would do a check before posting but I'm laid up and took the lazy way out


Chris
		
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The Rules make it explicit that it is the gross handicap, not the reduced allowance, which must be recorded by the player. The Committee then applies the Competition Rules.


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## sJoe (Dec 17, 2011)

Thanks Ethan I'd looked up the relevant rules and thought I was right..On Monday I;ll be at the club and ask to have the disqualification reversed..fingers crossed..


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## mc73 (Dec 17, 2011)

I have been dq'd before for a similar issue where playing partner incorrectly totalled my points score but had the gross score correct, I checked out and complained and was subsequently reinstated as the comp winner.

It's the committees responsibility to point the cards correctly, the players responsibility is to have and sign for a correct gross score.


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## Phil2511 (Dec 17, 2011)

Things like that occur regularly at our club. Many people do not seem to understand how exactly allowances work but as long as the correct gross scores are entered correctly the competition convenor has always made allowance for any nett discrepancies.
And has been said as long as those gross scores are correct and visibly checked and are entered into the computer the nett score will be displayed by the computer.
To disqualify for an incorrect nett score seems to be very harsh.

Even now in winter league as we play over the front 9 only with half handicap those with an odd handicap get an extra shot on a hole that if on full course would not and often a score for a 1 or 2 becomes a 2 or 3 when entered into the computer.


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## CMAC (Dec 17, 2011)

mc73 said:



			It's the committees responsibility to point the cards correctly, the players responsibility is to have and sign for a correct gross score.
		
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Interesting and well worth knowing, thanks.

As an aside I also believe if you add up and sign for a wrong gross score you are not DQ if the recorded score is higher than the actual score, is that correct?


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## chrisd (Dec 17, 2011)

DarthVega said:



			Interesting and well worth knowing, thanks.

As an aside I also believe if you add up and sign for a wrong gross score you are not DQ if the recorded score is higher than the actual score, is that correct?
		
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No, you are not responsible for the adding up whether it is higher or lower, that is down to the competition organiser 

Chris


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## Steve In Spain (Dec 17, 2011)

As Chris said above, it's the committee's responsibility. YOURS is to record the correct score per hole.


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## Imurg (Dec 17, 2011)

mc73 said:



			It's the committees responsibility to point the cards correctly, the players responsibility is to have and sign for a correct gross score.
		
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Had a real embarrassing occasion at my last club - thankfully 1 month after my time on the Committee had finished.
Captains Day and all the cards are in. One real, genuine 28+ handicapper was saying he'd come in with 44 points which was at least 4 more than anyone else was admitting to.
Anyway, presentation time for the Trophy and it's duly handed over..

About an hour later, one of the Committee was checking through for something else on a card - whether someone birdied a particular hole - and saw the "winner's" card.
It had 8's and 9's on it - plenty of them. No way he could have scored 44 points with those numbers, even off 28.
A quick check through the card revealed that whoever marked the card took this guys word for the number of points. No cheating at all, amazingly he just had no clue how to score.
His real total was 21. Whoever checked the card - if it was done at all - made a right Pig's Ear of it.

The real winner had long since gone and there was much wailing and knashing of teeth to get him back to claim his prize.

Oh Boy the Committee looked sheepish after that one......


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## MadAdey (Dec 18, 2011)

I would say you are definitely not disqualified. This rule says it all to me really.

33-5 Scorecard

In stroke play, the Committee must provide each competitor with a score card containing the date and the competitorâ€™s name or, in foursome or four-ball stroke play, the competitorsâ€™ names. 
In stroke play, the Committee is responsible for the addition of scores and application of the handicap recorded on the score card. 
In four-ball stroke play, the Committee is responsible for recording the better-ball score for each hole and in the process applying the handicaps recorded on the score card, and adding the better-ball scores. 
In bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the Committee is responsible for applying the handicap recorded on the score card and determining the result of each hole and the overall result or points total. 
Note: The Committee may request that each competitor records the date and his name on his score card.


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## CMAC (Dec 18, 2011)

so to clarify, even if you record and sign for a gross total score less than you actually scored you cannot get DQ as long as the individual holes are recorded accurately?


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## Ethan (Dec 18, 2011)

DarthVega said:



			so to clarify, even if you record and sign for a gross total score less than you actually scored you cannot get DQ as long as the individual holes are recorded accurately?
		
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Correct. 

You must fill in the correct gross handicap - the Committee makes the 3/4 (or whatever) adjustment

You fill in scores on 18 holes - the Committee is responsible for the totals for each 9 and the 18, as well as the net score or points.


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## SGC001 (Dec 18, 2011)

A problem that sometimes occurs in betterballs is markers putting a players score in their partners box, this can lead to problems if the players don't check their card fully before signing.


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## CallawayKid (Dec 19, 2011)

Did they reverse it Joe?
I must admit we haven't disqualified anyone for a while as we choose to educate rather than penalise. First screw up is free, after that then we have a little chat...

CK


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2011)

CallawayKid said:



			Did they reverse it Joe?
I must admit we haven't disqualified anyone for a while as we choose to educate rather than penalise. 

CK
		
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What do you mean?

The Committee has no discretion to DQ where such a penalty is not permitted (as in the example cited), nor waive DQ where it is prescribed.


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## rosecott (Dec 19, 2011)

Exactly, Ethan.

The first time you submit a wining scorecard without checking and signing it you are simultaneously penalised and educated.


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

Bit harsh though don't you think and not in the spirit of the game?
If a card was handed to me and not signed I would tell the competitor he's forgotten to sign it. Anyone that doesn't do this is, I'm afraid, suffering from length in a certain appendage! 

Obviously if someone has breached the rules knowingly then it will be dealt with. 

CK


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## bladeplayer (Dec 20, 2011)

I can see your point CK but i dont think it is at your Discression mate , 


sJoe how did ya get on mate ? surely this was reversed ,


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2011)

CallawayKid said:



			Bit harsh though don't you think and not in the spirit of the game?
If a card was handed to me and not signed I would tell the competitor he's forgotten to sign it. Anyone that doesn't do this is, I'm afraid, suffering from length in a certain appendage! 

Obviously if someone has breached the rules knowingly then it will be dealt with. 

CK
		
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If a player hands in an unsigned card, they are DQ'd. If you blithely accept that card and allow them to sign it after the fact, you are cheating as well. Some Comp Secs think they have the right to amend the Rules of Golf. They don't. You don't. 

Now, the Committee, as a whole, may waive a DQ, but you can't do so unilaterally. You must also have grounds to do so. There are numerous decisions about signing cards. 'I forgot' is unlikely to be a convincing argument. 

As for appendage length, some Comp Secs think that holding this office enhances their length. It doesn't. Quite the opposite in fact, as some are clearly compensating for a shortcoming.


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

So 100% of you would disqualify someone if they gave you their card and it wasn't signed? Surely the gentleman in you would say something first? 

Maybe you operate your competitions differently? At the end of the round cards get handed to either the H/C sec or myself and we enter them onto the system so everyone can see where they stand in the clubhouse. If a card is handed to me unsigned then I remind the competitor. Maybe I should be one of those Competition Secretaries that you speak of? 

As a committee, we are all agreed on this approach.

Putting a card in the box after a medal round (As these are played whenever on medal day) and not being signed is totally different, a non-signed card is not a card. 

I am merely saying it's the gentlemanly thing to do and I hope that other people do agree or I have got this game totally wrong.

CK


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## coolhand (Dec 20, 2011)

CK- I'm with you on this. Surely a bit of discretion is called for.

Should the Policeman who stops you for a blown indicator bulb impond your car as unsafe or suggest that it would be a good idea to get yourself down to the nearest garage for a new one.

Is golf a welcoming and inclusive sport?


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

coolhand said:



			CK- I'm with you on this. Surely a bit of discretion is called for.

Should the Policeman who stops you for a blown indicator bulb impond your car as unsafe or suggest that it would be a good idea to get yourself down to the nearest garage for a new one.

Is golf a welcoming and inclusive sport?
		
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Ooo I wish I'd thought of that analogy!

Cheers chap :cheers:

CK


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## bobmac (Dec 20, 2011)

On a complete tangent and nothing to do with some golf club committees and those who serve on them.........

I wonder what traffic wardens do when they retire?


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2011)

But it isn't a question of what is gentlemanly or not, nor whether golf is inclusive or not. The policeman analogy is also a spurious one as the rules under which traffic police operate allow a degree of discretion and judgement to be taken into account. 

It would be very gentlemanly to say to a player, 'sorry old chap, I coughed on your backswing and you snapped it OOB, please play another one', but you can't. The Rules are there to be followed, and the Committee does not have unlimited discretion to change the Rules of Golf. Plenty of Comp Secs have a pretty tenuous knowledge of the Rules, and many wrongly think that they can simply amend one and make it a 'local rule'. 

Some of the Rules may be harsh, unfair, illogical or open to abuse, but that is unfortunate and can't be changed arbitrarily.


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

bobmac said:



			On a complete tangent and nothing to do with some golf club committees and those who serve on them.........

I wonder what traffic wardens do when they retire?   

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Do they sell V-Easys and poke hornets' nests on forums...??!! 






CK


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

All rules are open to interpretation old chap.
When does the card not signed actually come into effect?

Have a butchers at this, I would welcome your interpretation... 
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=06704120-F7B8-4285-AEC7-7F1750DA4742

CK


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## DaveM (Dec 20, 2011)

No I think they join golf club committees, then become comp' sec's!


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

DaveM said:



			No I think they join golf club committees, then become comp' sec's!
		
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Oi! I only got the job cos I was the last one left in the bar!


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2011)

CallawayKid said:



			All rules are open to interpretation old chap.
When does the card not signed actually come into effect?

Have a butchers at this, I would welcome your interpretation... 
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=06704120-F7B8-4285-AEC7-7F1750DA4742

CK 






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I already referred to this. Note that it says The Committee must make the decision. I specifically said that you, as an individual Committee member, can't.

In terms of timing, a card is handed in once submitted to the Committee, so that could be by being given to the pro or dropped in the box. That doesn't mean once the Committee get their hands on it.  

These cases are sometimes overturned by Committees who may be well intentioned but do not know the Rules.


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## chrisd (Dec 20, 2011)

Ethan is totally correct, end of


Chris


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

If someone tee'd up slightly in front of the tee markers what would you do?

CK


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## sJoe (Dec 20, 2011)

OK guys going back to my original thread..I objected to our disqualification quoting the relevant rule no's and the disqualification has been cancelled and our points awarded..Since this is an ongoing winter league comp. we have now moved 4 places up the "leaderboard"..Result..So thanks to all of you for your help..
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Golfing Year to you all


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2011)

CallawayKid said:



			If someone tee'd up slightly in front of the tee markers what would you do?

CK
		
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I would let them play then bash them to death with my sand wedge.

There is a decision in the Rules allowing me to clean the blood and brain matter off the sand wedge afterwards.


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## CallawayKid (Dec 20, 2011)

Splendid news Joe, sense prevails!

CK


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## bladeplayer (Dec 20, 2011)

sJoe said:



			OK guys going back to my original thread..I objected to our disqualification quoting the relevant rule no's and the disqualification has been cancelled and our points awarded..Since this is an ongoing winter league comp. we have now moved 4 places up the "leaderboard"..Result..So thanks to all of you for your help..
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Golfing Year to you all
		
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Good news Joe . how did they take it ? did they seemed shocked you questioned it ? were they shocked they were totaly wrong ?


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## rosecott (Dec 20, 2011)

CallawayKid said:



			At the end of the round cards get handed to either the H/C sec or myself and we enter them onto the system so everyone can see where they stand in the clubhouse. If a card is handed to me unsigned then I remind the competitor. Putting a card in the box after a medal round (As these are played whenever on medal day) and not being signed is totally different, a non-signed card is not a card.
		
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In the first instance, when the card is handed to you as the committee member reponsible for accepting scorecards from competitors, you are, in effect, the box in which cards are posted in the second instance. The card cannot be recovered from the box and neither should it be recovered from you - or returned by you.

Just out of interest and as an aside, you notice that someone had submitted a card on which the competitor had entered a handicap higher than that to which he was entitled. Would you give it back to him to change?


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2011)

rosecott said:



			In the first instance, when the card is handed to you as the committee member reponsible for accepting scorecards from competitors, you are, in effect, the box in which cards are posted in the second instance. The card cannot be recovered from the box and neither should it be recovered from you - or returned by you.

Just out of interest and as an aside, you notice that someone had submitted a card on which the competitor had entered a handicap higher than that to which he was entitled. Would you give it back to him to change?
		
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I agree, that is the point at which the card is handed in. I think it would be reasonable if the Committee member concerned said to every person that handed a card in - Hold on a sec, before I accept it let me check it for the basics - and point out any missing signatures etc before saying - OK, thanks, consider it handed in. 

Thus the person's role is combined card-checker and card receiver. 

But doing so a while later and going back to the player is obviously a different matter.


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## MadAdey (Dec 20, 2011)

rosecott said:



			In the first instance, when the card is handed to you as the committee member reponsible for accepting scorecards from competitors, you are, in effect, the box in which cards are posted in the second instance. The card cannot be recovered from the box and neither should it be recovered from you - or returned by you.

Just out of interest and as an aside, you notice that someone had submitted a card on which the competitor had entered a handicap higher than that to which he was entitled. Would you give it back to him to change?
		
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Signing a card is all part of submitting your score for the comp, but hey it is easy if your are in a bit of a rush when you finish to forget about it. Putting a handicap that was higher is different in my eyes. Everyone knows their handicap or they should. Trying to submit a score after trying to nick a couple more on your handicap is cheating in my eyes.


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## sev112 (Dec 20, 2011)

We debated / agreed earlier this year in the thread about the advice i gave to a complete beginner on each and every hole if not each and every shot, in which I subsequently won the stableford competition, that in fact the masses believed i should not have been penalised, castrated, crucified, and prevented from bringing a new golfer into the fold at the expense of a "rule of golf" that we "dont have the right to question" etc etc etc 

Some rules in some competitions are tosh
Some rules in some competitions are correctly absolutely sancrosanct
You dont really need a committee to write down which ones matter all the time
But for some people you do


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## mc73 (Dec 20, 2011)

CallawayKid said:



			If someone tee'd up slightly in front of the tee markers what would you do?

CK
		
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Tell him to re tee it up, it's against the rules.

All joking aside, yes i can understand where people think discretion should be used but anyone who plays golf knows that they can be dq'd for various things and most would likey accept the dq if pointed out correctly rather than an abrupt shout across the bar.


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## sJoe (Dec 21, 2011)

Good news Joe . how did they take it ? did they seemed shocked you questioned it ? were they shocked they were totaly wrong ?

Hi..They took it well, said something along the lines of it being a miss-understanding mmmm..And are now going to go through all the card entries since mid October as this is an ongoing winter league comp..and there have been other disqualifications for the same reason. Ah well!!


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