# Let's tax pensioners



## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-44029808

Because the young are struggling to find their footing in life there should be a tax on pensioners over and above what they already pay. Note, already pay. Those pensioners who have already been prudent in life, and have generated their nest eg, already pay tax.

But let's go back to when today's current pensioners were starting out. Many didn't have a car, let alone being a 2 car family. Many didn't have holidays, let alone foreign holidays. Many bought a falling down terraced house, and refurbed it, then bought a semi and then bought a detached. A weekend away in Amsterdam? What were they? A stag/hen 'do' in Benidorm? A few beers in town more like. 

Just how far will this 'entitlement' that is expected by the young and promoted for the young extend?

Sorry but get off your ar5e and work for those things. Grab every bit of overtime you can. Get a second job to buy the luxuries. 

I cycled 12 miles to work, not through choice. We went 7 years before having our first holiday. We bought our first detached house in my 40's, and I've had decent jobs all my working life. Being really comfortable didn't happen till I was mortgage free.


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## DCB (May 8, 2018)

"Inter-generational fairness"  who comes up with these titles ?

Agree with the Hobbit's sentiments, if you want it bad enough you work hard for it.  Â£10k for a deposit at 25 ...... you're having a laugh ðŸ˜


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

DCB said:



			"Inter-generational fairness"  who comes up with these titles ?

Agree with the Hobbit's sentiments, if you want it bad enough you work hard for it.  Â£10k for a deposit at 25 ...... you're having a laugh ðŸ˜ 
		
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Not only is it a bad idea itâ€™s also unrealistic .. 10k would not only not be enough for a deposit in most cases wouldnâ€™t it also just put house prices up as more people could afford to buy than now just increasing demand for propertyâ€™s


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## DCB (May 8, 2018)

At 25  the person is relatively new to the workplace. They may not be on that great a wage / salary, how are they expected to save the remainder of the deposit. As for house prices rising, that will just cause the price to rocket on almost every starter home/ flat in the country.

As for an additional "tax" on the older population, that is just plain robbery. In a generation that was sold the myth of retiring at 55, and planned accordingly, it can only be seen as punishment for forward planning and investing in a private or company pension.


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## Blue in Munich (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



http://www.bbc.com/news/business-44029808

Because the young are struggling to find their footing in life there should be a tax on pensioners over and above what they already pay. Note, already pay. Those pensioners who have already been prudent in life, and have generated their nest eg, already pay tax.

But let's go back to when today's current pensioners were starting out. Many didn't have a car, let alone being a 2 car family. Many didn't have holidays, let alone foreign holidays. Many bought a falling down terraced house, and refurbed it, then bought a semi and then bought a detached. A weekend away in Amsterdam? What were they? A stag/hen 'do' in Benidorm? A few beers in town more like. 

Just how far will this 'entitlement' that is expected by the young and promoted for the young extend?

Sorry but get off your ar5e and work for those things. Grab every bit of overtime you can. Get a second job to buy the luxuries. 

I cycled 12 miles to work, not through choice. We went 7 years before having our first holiday. We bought our first detached house in my 40's, and I've had decent jobs all my working life. Being really comfortable didn't happen till I was mortgage free.
		
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Absolutely spot on as usual Brian :thup:

Let's take it from those who've worked for it, saved it, managed it and let's give it to those who just whine about it.  who will be monitoring where this Â£10,000 gets spent or will it just be frittered on Stag/Hen dos, holidays, mobiles, iPads  or up the wall on a Saturday night?

I've no issue paying more NI for the NHS as long as all the recipients of the service do the same; God knows it needs it and if you are in any doubt read This Is Going To Hurt by Adam Kay.

If we are looking for a better idea, why don't we promote some of these pensioners who have proved their ability to balance their books and let them look after the NHS budget; surely they can't do any worse than the current suggestion?


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## chrisd (May 8, 2018)

The young are so hard done by, we had it easy!

Only, I did my first paid job when I was 10 years old, went to work full time at 15 years 4 months old and never had a penny in benefits other than family allowance for my one child. Paid, I guess, an average of 10% mortgage rate over it's life. Worked an average 55 to 60 hours a week. Did all my own decorating and house maintenance, had a holiday entitlement of 3 weeks a year, no protected employment rights for much if the time I worked for others. Couldn't take parental leave or go to the school nativity or sports day - they'd have laughed at the request!

Yep, it was an easy life for us oldies &#128513;


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## Kellfire (May 8, 2018)

Seems fair after you screwed us on Brexit.


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## Fish (May 8, 2018)




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## PhilTheFragger (May 8, 2018)

We used to lick tâ€™road clean with our tongues and live int cardbox box.....luxuryðŸ˜‚


Agree with the above, but it is a different ball game nowadays, go back 40 years and someone on average salary could afford to buy a house which would cost about 3 or 4 times salary.

Nowadays itâ€™s nearer 8 times average salary,(certainly in the south east) most young people end up renting, those that can buy can only do so if they get a handout from the bank of Mum n dad or an inheritance from granny. Or their work qualifies them for special help.

Iâ€™m lucky, I have a decent pension, but the pension landscape has changed , my fear is that todayâ€™s youngsters will have insufficient pensions to cover their rent after retirement

The system has changed and the system is broken


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## Doon frae Troon (May 8, 2018)

At the age of 25 I had already done 10 years work, never had a holiday [exc. visiting relatives], never owned a car and was another 10 years away from owning a house.
Aye, I had it easy compared to todays 25 year olds.


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## chrisd (May 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At the age of 25 I had already done 10 years work, never had a holiday [exc. visiting relatives], never owned a car and was another 10 years away from owning a house.
Aye, I had it easy compared to todays 25 year olds.
		
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Funny too that we didn't blame our parents &#128512;


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## Bunkermagnet (May 8, 2018)

As someone in their 50's, I see both sides of the arguement. I wont get a final salary pension, when I get to retire which currently is 67. 
I took Maggies advise and took out a private pension aged 21 which Mr Brown decided was too much and took a third of it in one swipe of his pen. I have worked all my life from 16 and own my own home the value of which is stupid.
For young people there is very little to look forward to, and just as when you're old you have to sell that house and everything you own to fund your own care home accomodation, it's those who have prepared that are penalised and those who haven't or have nothing that are cattered for.

Life isn't fair, especially in modern Britain, but fighting ones own corner isn't really going to help anyone. Everyone needs to help each other, but sdaly I doubt that will ever happen because we only ever think of how wonderful things were and of ourselves.


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## DRW (May 8, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We used to lick tâ€™road clean with our tongues and live int cardbox box.....luxuryï˜‚


Agree with the above, but it is a different ball game nowadays, go back 40 years and someone on average salary could afford to buy a house which would cost about 3 or 4 times salary.

Nowadays itâ€™s nearer 8 times average salary,(certainly in the south east) most young people end up renting, those that can buy can only do so if they get a handout from the bank of Mum n dad or an inheritance from granny. Or their work qualifies them for special help.

Iâ€™m lucky, I have a decent pension, but the pension landscape has changed , my fear is that todayâ€™s youngsters will have insufficient pensions to cover their rent after retirement

The system has changed and the system is broken
		
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Completely agree, buying a house and pension/retirement age is completely different to 'back then'.:thup:

You do not start full time work until 18 now(by law) and you are only talking by a few years. There is many a PAYE person who retired in their early 50s I know(now say 60 plus) but can you see this still going on and going forward. Personally I would much rather start work at 16 and retire earlier, when you still may have your health with a nice pension like I have seen with many people.

Buying goods etc, is hard to compare across eras, because technology advancements mean they are a lot cheaper relative to salaries, credit is also more freely available in this era than 30-50 years ago.

And to be brutally honest, all generations upto date (young, middles aged and old) have not paid enough............its in black/white its called the national debt (and don't forget to add on/accrued for pension liabilities/services that have been guaranteed )


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## DaveR (May 8, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Seems fair after you screwed us on Brexit.
		
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You screwed yourselves over Brexit by not bothering to vote.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 8, 2018)

Its easy to also forget that the issue of pensions reform has been kicked down the road by almost every single Government for as long as I am alive, so whilst its easy to say "when I was a lad..." the fact that the elephant in the room was ignored for tha last 50 or so years doesn't really help the younger person now.


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## Slab (May 8, 2018)

For me the beginning of the end stared in the late 70â€™s/early 80â€™s with the fundamental changes to Britainâ€™s social housing and pensions

The actual concepts behind these changes (Right to Buy & Private Pensions) werenâ€™t the main issue but the lackadaisical (even criminal) way these changes were permitted to be implemented (under the guise of Greed is Good) is a tragedy that will be felt for several generations


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## Bunkermagnet (May 8, 2018)

Slab said:



			For me the beginning of the end stared in the late 70â€™s/early 80â€™s with the fundamental changes to Britainâ€™s social housing and pensions

The actual concepts behind these changes (Right to Buy & Private Pensions) werenâ€™t the main issue but the lackadaisical (even criminal) way these changes were permitted to be implemented (under the guise of Greed is Good) is a tragedy that will be felt for several generations
		
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Being one of those to take out a private pension back then, the reason was that we were all told that by the time "we" reached retirement age there wouldnt be any money to give us a half decent standard of living. So in that respect, you were only trying to look after yourself in older age and making provision. Sadly now though it seems that it was all a waste of money.


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## Slab (May 8, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Being one of those to take out a private pension back then,* the reason was that we were all told that by the time "we" reached retirement age there wouldnt be any money to give us a half decent standard of living*. So in that respect, you were only trying to look after yourself in older age and making provision. Sadly now though it seems that it was all a waste of money.
		
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Thatâ€™s part of what I mean about the implementation 

With waiting time for council housing lengthening to stupid timescales almost overnight as availability/housing stock dried up we were forced down the mortgage route coupled with â€˜mandatoryâ€™ pensions and exorbitant mortgage insurances I can well remember even for a new tiny one-bed lego flat at just 24k the financial outlays near crippled 2 working adults


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## Bunkermagnet (May 8, 2018)

Slab said:



			Thatâ€™s part of what I mean about the implementation 

With waiting time for council housing lengthening to stupid timescales almost overnight as availability/housing stock dried up we were forced down the mortgage route coupled with â€˜mandatoryâ€™ pensions and exorbitant mortgage insurances I can well remember even for a new tiny one-bed lego flat at just 24k the financial outlays near crippled 2 working adults
		
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Agreed. You could also argue that the "older" person now is part responsible for the stupid house prices younger persons cant even hope to afford, having driven them up in their search for that next "trophy" house.


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## Slab (May 8, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Agreed. You could also argue that the "older" person now is part responsible for the stupid house prices younger persons cant even hope to afford, having driven them up in their search for that next "trophy" house.
		
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Yup, Iâ€™ll go along with that

If you bought your council house and bought shares in BT, gas & leccy then today's mess is all your fault, thanks for nowâ€™t 
:angry:


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Agreed. You could also argue that the "older" person now is part responsible for the stupid house prices younger persons cant even hope to afford, having driven them up in their search for that next "trophy" house.
		
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One of the more ludicrous suggestions. 

I am 69 and my friends and acquaintances are similar ages.

Yes we are all homeowners but I do not know one who has ever sought a "trophy home. 

We may have wanted a larger property at times but that was for the comfort and wellbeing of ourselves and our families. 

Also need to dispel the myth that all of our generation enjoy the benefits of Final Salary pensions. Not  true and for the majority never has been true.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			We may have wanted a larger property at times but that was for the comfort and wellbeing of ourselves and our families.
		
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But did you "need" that larger house or just "want" it?
Older people are always saying how they used to live on a shilling a week, and that included paying their rent, food and clothing in a 2 up 2 down with outside lavvy for a family of 8

My point is everyone is responsible for where we are today. Blaming one element of society is not the answer.


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## adam6177 (May 8, 2018)

It's not fair to blame those wanting a bigger house for the way prices have gone.  The people to blame are those that own multiple properties, that is obvious.  Property has turned into an investment, which is wrong, it should be the RIGHT of every working UK citizen to be able to afford to buy their own house.  Imagine now if all the owners of 3+ properties were forced to sell......for me that would be the ideal world, a market flooded with properties driven down to realistic prices.

Just for the record, I'm 37....bought my first 1 bed flat in January 2007 and in the next 4 years I lost 25k on its value.  So when it came to get married and want a family I had to take the hit and move on.  Since then I've been renting and we both know we will only be able to afford to buy a house when we inherit.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But did you "need" that larger house or just "want" it?
Older people are always saying how they used to live on a shilling a week, and that included paying their rent, food and clothing in a 2 up 2 down with outside lavvy for a family of 8

My point is everyone is responsible for where we are today. Blaming one element of society is not the answer.
		
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But unlike some I am not blaming any particular group. 

And you can ask the "need" or "want" question of any purchase. Steak or mince, small hatchback or bigger car, Dunlop or Titleist. 

These are choices in a free society and some of today's younger generation wish to make different calls to mine.

That is their right but having made their choice they must appreciate that there may be consequences.


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## SaintHacker (May 8, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Seems fair after you screwed us on Brexit.
		
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zzzzz

I heard one of the reasons given on the news this morning was students coming out of university with huge debts. I know plenty of people who finished their degrees without a penny of debt, how? Because they went and got a part time job and didn't drink their grant during the first week they were there.


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## adam6177 (May 8, 2018)

SaintHacker said:



			zzzzz

I heard one of the reasons given on the news this morning was students coming out of university with huge debts. I know plenty of people who finished their degrees without a penny of debt, how? Because they went and got a part time job and didn't drink their grant during the first week they were there.

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I think that argument was valid when I went to Uni (1998-2000) but not now, no part time job will get even remotely close to paying what these young uns have to pay to go to Uni anymore.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

SaintHacker said:



			zzzzz

I heard one of the reasons given on the news this morning was students coming out of university with huge debts. I know plenty of people who finished their degrees without a penny of debt, how? Because they went and got a part time job and didn't drink their grant during the first week they were there.

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What grant?

With very few exceptions grants have long since disappeared.


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## BristolMike (May 8, 2018)

Iâ€™m early 30s and own a couple of properties now, but I made some major sacrificies to get in to the position I am now without any help. I got there by working my a** off after football disappeared. Iâ€™ve got friends of similar age and slightly younger who moan that they will never be able to afford a house due to the prices and blame people like me. The same people go away on 2-3 holidays per year and go drinking pretty much most weekends and wonder why they canâ€™t save for deposits


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## Kellfire (May 8, 2018)

BristolMike said:



			Iâ€™m early 30s and own a couple of properties now, but I made some major sacrificies to get in to the position I am now without any help. I got there by working my a** off after football disappeared. Iâ€™ve got friends of similar age and slightly younger who moan that they will never be able to afford a house due to the prices and blame people like me. The same people go away on 2-3 holidays per year and go drinking pretty much most weekends and wonder why they canâ€™t save for deposits
		
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Some people want to enjoy their life to a certain level that they deem it worth sacrificing owning a home. I know I'd rather enjoy my limited days on earth than give up certain comforts just to own some land and bricks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

When I heard about the Â£10k for 25yr olds I thought they were talking about the Basic Universal Income (and there is a good discussion there)

But as this has been presented and is being discussed as a Â£10k giveaway to 25yr olds to spend on whatever - but let's just get the facts straight.

A restricted use asset endowment (citizen's inheritance) available to 25yr olds, but for which they will have to apply and present a 'business case' to cover expenditure on such as buying a property, investing in education or starting a business.

Maybe not such a bad idea at all - to break the inequitable cycle that finds today that the only younger folk able to do these things are those who inherit or get funds from their parents.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...term=269782&subid=5306717&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

SaintHacker said:



			zzzzz

I heard one of the reasons given on the news this morning was students coming out of university with huge debts. *I know plenty of people who finished their degrees without a penny of debt,* how? Because they went and got a part time job and didn't drink their grant during the first week they were there.

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Well I know plenty who didn't.  And some, though not all,  were working part-time.  And very few of those I know got a grant.

At 26yr I bought my first  property - a 2-bed flat in central Bristol (in Redland for those in the know).  It cost me Â£35k.  At the time my salary was about Â£9k.  I bought it with a mortgage of Â£32k - putting down a deposit of Â£3k of my own savings and a little top up from my parents.  And of course Â£32k is about 3.5x my salary.  So sums all worked just right for a new graduate professional engineer.

I recently saw it for sale for Â£275k.  The sums no longer work for a new graduate professional engineer.  And it is the same flat - in the same location.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			But unlike some I am not blaming any particular group. 

And you can ask the "need" or "want" question of any purchase. Steak or mince, small hatchback or bigger car, Dunlop or Titleist. 

These are choices in a free society and some of today's younger generation wish to make different calls to mine.

That is their right but having made their choice they must appreciate that there may be consequences.
		
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Of course there are, some visible and some unseen. I have quite a few friends who like me took out a private pension to try and give them a better standard of life in old age. If you couple Mr Browns raid on the pension investments made, along with the current flavour of Governments idea that you should sell your family home to fund your care home provision, where is the incentive to save and try and make provision for when you get old?
My parents worked hard all their life and brought us up in a responsible way. They weren't a burden on the state,never spent what they didnt have and looked after what they had. They took the view the ( 3 bed terraced) family home would be their financial legacy to myself and my 2 brothers when they left us. When my mother had to go into a care home, the house we grew up in and all the memories in it were sold to fund her at the home. Other residents within the home were funded by the council because they didn't have the house my mum and dad had worked hard for. 

As friends of mine all around the same age as myself  have said, where is the point in saving or trying to make provision for yourself when you're penalised if you do have anything when you get old? 
It's hard to not take that view in the current situaion.


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## BristolMike (May 8, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Some people want to enjoy their life to a certain level that they deem it worth sacrificing owning a home. I know I'd rather enjoy my limited days on earth than give up certain comforts just to own some land and bricks.
		
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oh I still enjoyed myself and still do, but fully aware I canâ€™t have everything. I went on one holiday rather than 3 etc. It seems owning a home isnâ€™t something youâ€™re overly bothered with, so that comment wasnâ€™t really aimed at someone like you. It was more about people making it everyone elseâ€™s fault why they canâ€™t afford a house.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			As friends of mine all around the same age as myself  have said, where is the point in saving or trying to make provision for yourself when you're penalised if you do have anything when you get old? 
It's hard to not take that view in the current situaion.
		
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Fair enough that's their choice provided they don't subsequently moan that, as a result of their lifestyle choices, they can't afford a deposit on a property or that their retirement is impoverished.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 8, 2018)

If you hand out 10k to all the kids to buy a house, all that will happen is the price of houses will rise by 10k.

Tell me Iâ€™m wrong


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## Liverbirdie (May 8, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Agree with the above, but it is a different ball game nowadays, go back 40 years and someone on average salary could afford to buy a house which would cost about 3 or 4 times salary.

Nowadays itâ€™s nearer 8 times average salary,(certainly in the south east) most young people end up renting, those that can buy can only do so if they get a handout from the bank of Mum n dad or an inheritance from granny. Or their work qualifies them for special help.
		
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Do Norman Tebbit's bikes, do a return journey?

And go and spend Â£1.50 on a maxwell house coffee, instead of Costa supercalifraggerlicksitImurgisatrociousmochiato.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Fair enough that's their choice provided they don't subsequently moan that, as a result of their lifestyle choices, they can't afford a deposit on a property or that their retirement is impoverished.
		
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We are all in our 50's and own our own homes. Their point is that having tried to make provision for when they get to retire they will be penalised for having done so. They see it as being no better off than those who have spunked their money up the wall.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			We are all in our 50's and own our own homes. Their point is that having tried to make provision for when they get to retire they will be penalised for having done so. They see it as being no better off than those who have spunked their money up the wall.
		
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I appreciate their point but this is not a recent development, it has been so for many years now.


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			If you hand out 10k to all the kids to buy a house, all that will happen is the price of houses will rise by 10k.

Tell me Iâ€™m wrong
		
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Not saying your wrong, but that 10k increase would be spread over a 35 year mortgage term, so insignificant in the scheme of things.

An equivalent number to the point you're trying to make would be closer to house prices rising by Â£100k, which won't happen.


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## IanM (May 8, 2018)

Intergeneration disparity must be stopped... 

All over 50 golfers from provincial towns will be rounded up, transported to the inner cities and forced to join gangs!

More "free unicorn" theory dreamt up by folk who might benefit from 10 mins in the real world.


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## Hacker Khan (May 8, 2018)

it would probably do us better for both generations to understand each other a bit better.  Young people probably think most old people are Daily Mail reading Brexit voting little Englanders from the university of life who drive slowly everywhere and are perpetually confused by smart phones, chip and pin and  mini roundabouts.  Old people think young people are mostly work shy hoody wearing lily-livered socialists who are studying media studies at the University of Stockton, want everything for nothing and are out all night partying using easily available credit.

Where as neither is true. However society has changed a lot since most of us were a lad or lass and more understanding of the pressures each generation is facing when it comes to housing, employment, finance, the environment and inclusion can only make things better.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			Not saying your wrong, but that 10k increase would be spread over a 35 year mortgage term, so insignificant in the scheme of things.

An equivalent number to the point you're trying to make would be closer to house prices rising by Â£100k, which won't happen.
		
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The "market" makes no sense. 

If we ate to believe that the young cannot afford to buy houses then, at the lower end of the market, prices should stagnate or reduce due to lack of demand. 

This would then filter upwards as the existing owners  of the lower priced properties struggle to sell when they wish to trade up.

However, in London at least, prices seem to be determined by the demand at the top end of the market.

Truly a confusing development of the Market Economy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Of course there are, some visible and some unseen. I have quite a few friends who like me took out a private pension to try and give them a better standard of life in old age. If you couple Mr Browns raid on the pension investments made, along with the current flavour of Governments idea that you should sell your family home to fund your care home provision, where is the incentive to save and try and make provision for when you get old?
*My parents worked hard all their life and brought us up in a responsible way. They weren't a burden on the state,never spent what they didnt have and looked after what they had. They took the view the ( 3 bed terraced) family home would be their financial legacy to myself and my 2 brothers when they left us.* When my mother had to go into a care home, the house we grew up in and all the memories in it were sold to fund her at the home. Other residents within the home were funded by the council because they didn't have the house my mum and dad had worked hard for. 

As friends of mine all around the same age as myself  have said, where is the point in saving or trying to make provision for yourself when you're penalised if you do have anything when you get old? 
It's hard to not take that view in the current situaion.
		
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I can't be 100% sure - but I don't think my parents ever really considered the family home as their legacy to us or our inheritance from them when they were gone.  Their investment was in their children as we grew up - trying to instill in us the best of values; the best that state education could provide; and a love of and for our country (Scotland).  That I hope that I am today living the values that they believed in; that I was very well educated through school and university; and that I do indeed have a deep love of my country - in these things I have all of the inheritance I need.   

That they are both now departed and the family home sold - we can use what we have from that to support our children in the much tougher financial environment today than when I was their age.  And at the same time pass on all the non-monetary things that my parents instilled in me and that they set the groundwork for with our children when they were alive.  Well at least I can try.


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## Hacker Khan (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			The "market" makes no sense. 

*If we ate to believe that the young cannot afford to buy houses then*, *at the lower end of the market, prices should stagnate or reduce due to lack of demand.* 

This would then filter upwards as the existing owners  of the lower priced properties struggle to sell when they wish to trade up.

However, in London at least, prices seem to be determined by the demand at the top end of the market.

Truly a confusing development of the Market Economy.
		
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The relatively cheaper houses may well be bought by people who are looking to make  a profit out of them such as buy to let or student housing. Meaning, unless there is a large scale building initiative in this country, there still will be demand but not from the younger generation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

IanM said:



			Intergeneration disparity must be stopped... 

All over 50 golfers from provincial towns will be rounded up, transported to the inner cities and forced to join gangs!

More "free unicorn" theory dreamt up by folk who might benefit from 10 mins in the real world.
		
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and the real world is what we make it and make of it.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 8, 2018)

This is nothing more than a crap piece of PR purposely put out for the day after a Bank Holiday to get themselves on the news and on the box.  It's utter rubbish.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			The relatively cheaper houses may well be bought by people who are looking to make  a profit out of them such as buy to let or student housing. Meaning, unless there is a large scale building initiative in this country, there still will be demand but not from the younger generation.
		
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You may well be right although I find it difficult to believe that the Investment Property market is large enough to compensate for the loss of the first time buyers. 

More restrictions need to be imposed on the developers to ensure that adequate numbers of affordable homes are built. 

In the near 40 years that I have lived in this village (pop: 2400) 95%+ of the houses built have been large 4, 5 or 6 bedroom properties. 

This  creates an imbalance as the average age creeps up and those younger people who have grown up here can't find anywhere affordable if they wish to continue to live here.


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			The "market" makes no sense. 

If we ate to believe that the young cannot afford to buy houses then, at the lower end of the market, prices should stagnate or reduce due to lack of demand. 

This would then filter upwards as the existing owners  of the lower priced properties struggle to sell when they wish to trade up.

However, in London at least, prices seem to be determined by the demand at the top end of the market.

Truly a confusing development of the Market Economy.
		
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Sorry, I don't agree with any of that. The bottom end of the market is completely propped up with buy to let investors. Over 5 million properties and approx 12-15m living in private rented accommodation.

The top end of the London property market is its own beast with international investors and has very little relevance to the overall housing market.


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## Hacker Khan (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



*You may well be right although I find it difficult to believe that the* *Investment Property market is large enough to compensate for the loss of the first time buyers. *

More restrictions need to be imposed on the developers to ensure that adequate numbers of affordable homes are built. 

In the near 40 years that I have lived in this village (pop: 2400) 95%+ of the houses built have been large 4, 5 or 6 bedroom properties. 

This  creates an imbalance as the average age creeps up and those younger people who have grown up here can't find anywhere affordable if they wish to continue to live here.
		
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I am sure there are plenty of first time buyers, it's just that they are not youngsters anymore.  And it is a serious question for society and government to answer, should we be making it easier for the young to get on the property ladder. Or shall we just leave it to the market which I believe will only increase the buy to lets.  Or we could take the attitude as they do in other countries where letting is common place, but that will be a big cultural shift.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			Sorry, I don't agree with any of that. The bottom end of the market is completely propped up with buy to let investors. Over 5 million properties and approx 12-15m living in private rented accommodation.

The top end of the London property market is its own beast with international investors and has very little relevance to the overall housing market.
		
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Did not the Stamp Duty changes significantly reduce the demand for "buy to let"?

It certainly resulted in a large reduction in the demand for mortgage finance in that sector.


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## Hacker Khan (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Did not the Stamp Duty changes significantly reduce the demand for "buy to let"?

It certainly resulted in a large reduction in the demand for mortgage finance in that sector.
		
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http://www.cityam.com/283566/number-uk-buy-let-investors-hits-record-25m-high


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Did not the Stamp Duty changes significantly reduce the demand for "buy to let"?

It certainly resulted in a large reduction in the demand for mortgage finance in that sector.
		
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Yep, it has reduced somewhat and was a good step the govt made. But it hasn't created liquidity because it wasn't retrospective and hasn't penalised those already in private hands (in no way am I suggesting it should have been)

The government has created some good initiatives in the last 10 years or so, but with the prices continuing to spiral they have been on far too small a scale to have any real impact. 

Regarding the specifics of the topic in the OP, it will never happen anyway as no government ever takes on pensioners due to the power of their vote. 

IMO pension policy needs a radical overhaul and needs to be controlled by an independent body with a long term view (similar to BoE) as opposed to a govt with a maximum 5 year cycle


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.cityam.com/283566/number-uk-buy-let-investors-hits-record-25m-high

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But the figures quoted in the report do not equate to over 5 million properties and seem to suggest that there are significant regional variations. 

It also appears that rental yields are moving downwards which may reduce demand.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			IMO pension policy needs a radical overhaul and needs to be controlled by an independent body with a long term view (similar to BoE) as opposed to a govt with a maximum 5 year cycle
		
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Within the overall pension policy there's the question of non-State provision and as Employee Benefits Consultant, now retired, I would have to agree that control and regulation of the sector has not been successfully handled by any Government within the last 40-50 years.


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## IanM (May 8, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			The "market" makes no sense. 


Truly a confusing development of the Market Economy.
		
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Apologies if I disagree... your note is correct if there was only a single housing market in the UK.   Far from it/


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

IanM said:



			Apologies if I disagree... your note is correct if there was only a single housing market in the UK.   Far from it/
		
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Yes that was really my point. The housing market is so fractured that it defies the usual principles of market economics. 

The major disconnect comes from house purchase not being seen as the  provision of a basic requirement for living but rather as an investment. 

This then results in the paradox of people complaining about increases in the price of other basics such as food and energy whilst, at the same time, being upset if the cost/value of housing doesn't increase.

In this country we have a wonderful habit of overlooking the basics and hence housing becomes an investment and pension provision becomes tax-saving.


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## chrisd (May 8, 2018)

So, the OP is about taxing pensioners. 

So, as a newly retired pensioner I get about Â£2.5 k a year untaxed after my state pension takes up most of my allowances, so, if i take any of my work pension, or my employment earnings I'm going to pay tax at the same rate as a 20 year old. Yes I do save national insurance but if pensioners were to have to pay that their pensions would have to go up to fund it.


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## bobmac (May 8, 2018)

So kids today leave school, go on a gap year or 2, spend 3 or 4 years at college and then get gifted Â£10,000 of my hard earned pension to buy a house?

Not on your nelly.


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## User62651 (May 8, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So kids today leave school, go on a gap year or 2, spend 3 or 4 years at college and then get gifted Â£10,000 of my hard earned pension to buy a house?

Not on your nelly.
		
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Watching your house value increase in value 6x the rate of inflation or more is not hard-earned, just luck. Not saying you didn't work hard but people who bought pre 1995 or so have seen their primary asset's value sky rocket which is a big advantage. 
Sell up, downsize and retire comfortably on profit whilst the next generation struggle, not your problem I get that but govt's need to address the situation somehow. Current generation 35% of whom will not be able to buy a house have it harder, no question. Would you like to be still living with your parents at 35? Many (including hard working folks) have no choice because a deposit on property is unattainable and 3 or 4 x salary for mortgage buys nothing.


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## fundy (May 8, 2018)

sat at a poker table the other night, there was an interesting discussion between the generations (its one area where you get a mix of the two generations a lot, a large majority are 20 something or 50+)

one of the lads in his mid20s was moaning about how hard it was for him and how he would never be able to afford a house as it was impossible to save any money on his salary despite living at home. On further discussion turns out by start of May hes had 2 overseas holidays already, bought a brand new car (on finance), had an Ipad and the latest Iphone on him with a natty pair of Bose wireless headphones and was dressed head to toe in designer clothing. oh and the buy in to the tournament was 110 quid

im not saying he represents all of the generation, but the attitude was very much of not wanting to sacrifice anything to be able to save for a house, if thats the case fine but dont moan youre unable to save when youre actually choosing not to


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

Lot of my friends will never be able to buy

Iâ€™m lucky that I got onto the ladder with a 3 bed semi in havering. My wage covers everything including raising our child and childcare then my wifeâ€™s (part time now) teaching assistant money covers our treats like holidays 

Many others canâ€™t afford it however the ones who piss me off are the ones who have to go away 2 times a year. We are going away a few times but only the wifeâ€™s going abroad .. sending her to Spain for her 30th which I did a weekend of overtime to cover the cost save dipping into our money


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Watching your house value increase in value 6x the rate of inflation or more is not hard-earned, just luck. Not saying you didn't work hard but people who bought pre 1995 or so have seen their primary asset's value sky rocket which is a big advantage. 
Sell up, downsize and retire comfortably on profit whilst the next generation struggle, not your problem I get that but govt's need to address the situation somehow. Current generation 35% of whom will not be able to buy a house have it harder, no question. Would you like to be still living with your parents at 35? Many (including hard working folks) have no choice because a deposit on property is unattainable and 3 or 4 x salary for mortgage buys nothing.
		
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Indeed - in 1996 we bought our house for Â£93k - it is now Â£600-Â£650k.  What have I done to earn the huge equity now in the property.  Diddly-squat truth be told.  I might still grumble if someone came to take some of it away - but if I could see a decent justification then I think I could swallow that pill.

Mind you - I strongly suspect that I'll be contributing Â£10k+ to the house buying of both of my children - so maybe I could be exempt of paying additional tax on my equity for this if my children do not receive the Â£25k as they will get it from me.

But this Â£10k/25yr thing aside - should working age pensioners not pay NI on their income?


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - in 1996 we bought our house for Â£93k - it is now Â£600-Â£650k.  What have I done to earn the huge equity now in the property.  Diddly-squat truth be told.  I might still grumble if someone came to take some of it away - but if I could see a decent justification then I think I could swallow that pill.

Mind you - I strongly suspect that I'll be contributing Â£10k+ to the house buying of both of my children - so maybe I could be exempt of paying additional tax on my equity for this if my children do not receive the Â£25k as they will get it from me.

But this Â£10k/25yr thing aside - should working age pensioners not pay NI on their income?
		
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Arguably they should pay because surely at that age is when you use the nhs the most?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

DCB said:



			"Inter-generational fairness"  who comes up with these titles ?

Agree with the Hobbit's sentiments, if you want it bad enough you work hard for it.  Â£10k for a deposit at 25 ...... you're having a laugh ðŸ˜ 
		
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The inter-generational divide is a serious social issue.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The inter-generational divide is a serious social issue.
		
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But only the millennials can have a serious discussion on social media to resolve it ...........    or maybe not.


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## IanM (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The inter-generational divide is a serious social issue.
		
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....paraphrasing Socrates of course, although the actual origins are not certain.  Martial, writing around 50AD also had some interesting observations on it too....


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## chrisd (May 8, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Arguably they should pay because surely at that age is when you use the nhs the most?
		
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But like most generation's we paid in while other older generation's were using it.


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

chrisd said:



			But like most generation's we paid in while other older generation's were using it.
		
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What happens to this generation who will pay their NI and watch the nhs disappear along with their pensions?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 8, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			What happens to this generation who will pay their NI and watch the nhs disappear along with their pensions?
		
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That's a whole new and very interesting question. 

The NHS can never have enough money as research will continue to result in new drugs and treatments that patients will understandably want access to.

All of us, whatever our age, need to face up to this and the need for everyone to pay more for the service to continue. 

Personally I would favour a targeted increase in the basic rate of Income Tax as the fairest method of raising the necessary funds.

Whatever means is used we have to realise that a top class NHS cannot be provided on the cheap.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Arguably they should pay because surely at that age is when you use the nhs the most?
		
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Not seen many pensioners in the maternity ward, or special care baby unit, or the paediatric unit. 3 of the most expensive units to fund.

Most pensioners have paid tax and NI for upwards of 50 years. Pretty sure that should have paid a few years NHS care later in life, although not seen many pensioners spending years in hospital.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

I have 6 children, 5 of which went to uni. 4 have paid off their uni loan by age 35. 4 have bought their own homes, 2 of which are now in the second home purchase. 1 of them bought in London, and 3 of them have bought in Manchester. 5 of them have cars. All of them will holiday abroad this year.

They have grafted for everything, and achieved everything they set out to (realistically) achieve. 

Young adults that work with a similar ethos that previous generations worked to are well capable of living a similar life style, if not better, than previous generations. There's far too many lazy excuses, and too many cuddly liberals willing to believe them.


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## bobmac (May 8, 2018)

So kids today leave school, go on a gap year or 2, spend 3 or 4 years at college and then get gifted Â£10,000 of my hard earned pension to buy a house?

Click to expand...





maxfli65 said:



			Watching your house value increase in value 6x the rate of inflation or more is not hard-earned, just luck.
		
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What's the cost of my house got to do with the govt taxing my pension to pay for kids house deposit who have paid nothing into the system?

I paid rent for 20 years while I worked and saved for a deposit and my current house (bought in 2000) has gone up by Â£50-55,000 in 18 years so lets not pretend all retirees are rolling in it.

Maybe those living in the leafy London surburbs can afford it but not all can.




Sell up, downsize and retire comfortably on profit whilst the next generation struggle

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A bit tricky to downsize from a 2 bedroom bungalow.


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I have 6 children, 5 of which went to uni. 4 have paid off their uni loan by age 35. 4 have bought their own homes, 2 of which are now in the second home purchase. 1 of them bought in London, and 3 of them have bought in Manchester. 5 of them have cars. All of them will holiday abroad this year.

They have grafted for everything, and achieved everything they set out to (realistically) achieve. 

Young adults that work with a similar ethos that previous generations worked to are well capable of living a similar life style, if not better, than previous generations. There's far too many lazy excuses, and too many cuddly liberals willing to believe them.
		
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Uni needs to be made more unfashionable. Everyone goes for the sake of it now

My wife has a degree in child psychology , works in a school. her degree cost a fortune to get yet doesnâ€™t reward her finically 

On the other hand I left school at 16 to do a modern apprentice .. same company Iâ€™m with now. Earning 2.8 times her salary with just a nvq and GCSEs to my name officially 

Focus should be switched to getting more school leavers into work environment young to promote a sense of working for a living rather than being handed money


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## chrisd (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I have 6 children, 5 of which went to uni. 4 have paid off their uni loan by age 35. 4 have bought their own homes, 2 of which are now in the second home purchase. 1 of them bought in London, and 3 of them have bought in Manchester. 5 of them have cars. All of them will holiday abroad this year.

They have grafted for everything, and achieved everything they set out to (realistically) achieve. 

Young adults that work with a similar ethos that previous generations worked to are well capable of living a similar life style, if not better, than previous generations. There's far too many lazy excuses, and too many cuddly liberals willing to believe them.
		
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I only had one son of 35, he works hard and earns more than I could only have dreamt of earning. He didn't go to uni, left grammar school without doing his A levels but applied himself. Like yours,  he's married, 2 children and another on the way, own their own house etc etc  - as you say, grafted for what he needed like his parents!


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## SteveJay (May 8, 2018)

Culturally the nation, and the world, is changing. Home ownership might no longer be the aspiration of many millennials.......generation rent is the new buzz word. They will rent their home, rent a car (effectively via PCP), rent their mobile phone, even rent their music library and films, so Society has to change to reflect these trends. We might become more like other European countries where home ownership is not the holy grail, especially as people now move around far more.

However, as has been pointed out, that means working for longer as in retirement (whenever that might be) they will need an income to continue paying rent, unlike home owners who can look forward to no mortgage at some stage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I only had one son of 35, he works hard and earns more than I could only have dreamt of earning. He didn't go to uni, left grammar school without doing his A levels but applied himself. Like yours,  he's married, 2 children and another on the way, own their own house etc etc  - as you say, grafted for what he needed like his parents!
		
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My children both went to Uni - they both got 2:1s and are both employed and work very hard.  They do not get paid very much.  They still have massive debts.  You can work very hard and not get paid very much.  I think they just try and ignore the huge debts they have hanging - and get on with life as best they can given what they earn.

As it happens I think they would be OK not being home owners...if they can afford a half-decent lifestyle.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72715106.html

The above 3 bed end terrace cost me Â£17,500 in 1984. Currently on the market for Â£79k.

Very tempted to buy this 2 bed semi, Â£62.5k. I know the area well, and its a great, quiet area.    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72902351.html


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## MegaSteve (May 8, 2018)

Old folk vote...

Can't see any party proposing this... 
With the very high risk of costing votes...

Right or wrong a non-starter I believe...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72715106.html

The above 3 bed end terrace cost me Â£17,500 in 1984. Currently on the market for Â£79k.

Very tempted to buy this 2 bed semi, Â£62.5k. I know the area well, and its a great, quiet area.    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72902351.html

Click to expand...

this little end terrace is also in a nice area...and it will make a couple or young family a perfect home.  Only one problem.  Unless you actually work in London no London salaries for most out here.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-53996061.html


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## chrisd (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My children both went to Uni - they both got 2:1s and are both employed and work very hard.  They do not get paid very much.  They still have massive debts.  You can work very hard and not get paid very much.  I think they just try and ignore the huge debts they have hanging - and get on with life as best they can given what they earn.

As it happens I think they would be OK not being home owners...if they can afford a half-decent lifestyle.
		
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Good for them and a credit to their parents, I hope that they get from life what they want.


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72715106.html

The above 3 bed end terrace cost me Â£17,500 in 1984. Currently on the market for Â£79k.

Very tempted to buy this 2 bed semi, Â£62.5k. I know the area well, and its a great, quiet area.    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72902351.html

Click to expand...

Worryingly I saw an advert other day for a holiday home (caravan in clacton) for Â£65k .: donâ€™t get me wrong I saw â€œdirt cheapâ€ ones for 15k but that was one fancy one.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			this little end terrace is also in a nice area...and it will make a couple or young family a perfect home.  Only one problem.  Unless you actually work in London no London salaries for most out here.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-53996061.html

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And 2 people on an average salary are eligible for a mortgage and will pay out circa Â£1800 a month in mortgage repayments.

If you were able to poll the under 30's on here, there may not be many, I wonder how many of them will be holidaying abroad this year but then say they can't afford to buy a house... priorities?


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And 2 people on an average salary are eligible for a mortgage and will pay out circa Â£1800 a month in mortgage repayments.

If you were able to poll the under 30's on here, there may not be many, I wonder how many of them will be holidaying abroad this year but then say they can't afford to buy a house... priorities?
		
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If you go on holiday out of school time.. say a couple could go away for Â£1000 on holiday 

Yet Â£1800 a month would be 21600 a year alone in rent without deposit 

That Â£1000 on holiday would take 21 years to equal one year of mortgage payments


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## fundy (May 8, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Worryingly I saw an advert other day for a holiday home (caravan in clacton) for Â£65k .: donâ€™t get me wrong I saw â€œdirt cheapâ€ ones for 15k but that was one fancy one.
		
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http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne..._and_it__39_s_the_most_expensive_in_Britain_/


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## Blue in Munich (May 8, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Watching your house value increase in value 6x the rate of inflation or more is not hard-earned, just luck. Not saying you didn't work hard but people who bought pre 1995 or so have seen their primary asset's value sky rocket which is a big advantage. 
*Sell up, downsize and retire comfortably on profit whilst the next generation struggle, not your problem I get that *but govt's need to address the situation somehow. Current generation 35% of whom will not be able to buy a house have it harder, no question. Would you like to be still living with your parents at 35? Many (including hard working folks) have no choice because a deposit on property is unattainable and 3 or 4 x salary for mortgage buys nothing.
		
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So how does that work then?  Downsizing round here will only make estate agents and solicitors rich.  The only way to make a decent wedge is to move well away from your mates, your golf club, your hobbies & your work in my case.  So I get more money which I then spend on petrol or train fares to get back to the area I used to live in, wasting time travelling in the process.  Doesn't sound like a huge bonus to me.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			If you go on holiday out of school time.. say a couple could go away for Â£1000 on holiday 

Yet Â£1800 a month would be 21600 a year alone in rent without deposit 

That Â£1000 on holiday would take 21 years to equal one year of mortgage payments
		
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You may be missing my point. Fundy highlights it in one of the posts. The current generation appear to want the latest model iPhone, iPad, MacBook, new car, holdayS abroad every year, designer gear etc yet moan that they can't afford to buy a house. Add the cost of all the luxuries together + the combined mortgage buying power and a house is affordable. Surely the priority is the house first?

There's an accounting term used in business, specifically by banks, to ascertain a company's value. Its called Economic Value Added(EVA). EVA determines whether or not a company is a good risk, and what it can afford to pay back.

Mortgage lenders apply a very similar mechanism to determine whether or not to lend to applicants. If their net salary is Â£2k a month but they have car loans, phone contracts etc etc etc, the level of mortgage they are willing to lend drops off pound for pound against the current spend.

How many oldies do you see with a phone thats several generations old, or a practical car rather than a fancy flying machine? Many of the current generation seem to think they have to have the latest everything - nowt wrong with ambition, but placing those things before buying a house...


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72715106.html

The above 3 bed end terrace cost me Â£17,500 in 1984. Currently on the market for Â£79k.

Very tempted to buy this 2 bed semi, Â£62.5k. I know the area well, and its a great, quiet area.    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-72902351.html

Click to expand...

It's quiet because there are no jobs there! 1 job for every 2 people of working age in Cleveland, with those under 25 7x more likely to be unemployed than those in their 50s and 60s. Putting such an extreme example out there really can't prove any point you were trying to make.


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You may be missing my point. Fundy highlights it in one of the posts. The current generation appear to want the latest model iPhone, iPad, MacBook, new car, holdayS abroad every year, designer gear etc yet moan that they can't afford to buy a house. Add the cost of all the luxuries together + the combined mortgage buying power and a house is affordable. Surely the priority is the house first?

There's an accounting term used in business, specifically by banks, to ascertain a company's value. Its called Economic Value Added(EVA). EVA determines whether or not a company is a good risk, and what it can afford to pay back.

Mortgage lenders apply a very similar mechanism to determine whether or not to lend to applicants. If their net salary is Â£2k a month but they have car loans, phone contracts etc etc etc, the level of mortgage they are willing to lend drops off pound for pound against the current spend.

How many oldies do you see with a phone thats several generations old, or a practical car rather than a fancy flying machine? Many of the current generation seem to think they have to have the latest everything - nowt wrong with ambition, but placing those things before buying a house...
		
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Completely agree with this post though!

There is a certain irony that we now live in a world where such info is at everyone's fingertips, so those that do have the latest everything and complain they can't got a mortgage only really have themselves to blame. 

But I genuinely don't think that's a fair representation of the generation as a whole. Its the loud 5% you see showing off on social media that the Daily Mail/Express love to pick holes in, plus the 5% entitled liberals that think the world is really against them that you hear about in the media that most of the older generation seem to think represent us all, not the 90% of the rest of us that are weighing up lifestyle decisions and scrapping around for a deposit for a property before we start a family.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			It's quiet because there are no jobs there! 1 job for every 2 people of working age in Cleveland, with those under 25 7x more likely to be unemployed than those in their 50s and 60s. Putting such an extreme example out there really can't prove any point you were trying to make.
		
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An unemployed person in Surrey is in exactly the same position as the unemployed person in Cleveland. Neither can buy a house. The point I was making is that houses are affordable to those earning a salary. Hogan confirmed that they're also affordable to a couple on an average wage in Farnham, i.e. the multiple of the salaries, using the Halifax's own website, shows that mortgages are available.

Strangely enough, if you go back 40 years, those unemployed in Cleveland when employment was high still couldn't afford a house.


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## Cherry13 (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And 2 people on an average salary are eligible for a mortgage and will pay out circa Â£1800 a month in mortgage repayments.

If you were able to poll the under 30's on here, there may not be many, I wonder how many of them will be holidaying abroad this year but then say they can't afford to buy a house... priorities?
		
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Iâ€™ve just looked at the numbers on my banks calculator and best I can see is Â£2300pm based on a 10% mortgage, which is over 50k. 

This is all based on current interest rates, any one on an avg salary would be mental to touch that bearing in mind interest rates are very likely to rise over the lifetime of that mortgage.


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## Hobbit (May 8, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			Completely agree with this post though!

There is a certain irony that we now live in a world where such info is at everyone's fingertips, so those that do have the latest everything and complain they can't got a mortgage only really have themselves to blame. 

But I genuinely don't think that's a fair representation of the generation as a whole. Its the loud 5% you see showing off on social media that the Daily Mail/Express love to pick holes in, plus the 5% entitled liberals that think the world is really against them that you hear about in the media that most of the older generation seem to think represent us all, not the 90% of the rest of us that are weighing up lifestyle decisions and scrapping around for a deposit for a property before we start a family.
		
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You're right. Clumsy generalising isn't fair. I know enough in the younger generation that have bought their own place. I guess that also highlights how stupid the suggestion is that the older generation should be taxed more to fund the youngster who can't be bothered saving.


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## SocketRocket (May 8, 2018)

This current sport of berating old people is disgusting.  Many of the people doing it suggest they are socialists as well, what kind of socialism is it that blames the ills of the young on their parents and grandparents.   These older people have just lived a life and in most cases worked damn hard, no one has given them anything and in the vast majority of cases they have worked for the best part of 50 years and grown up in what people now would call abject poverty.   Don't dare blame them for the state of the housing market, I would challenge anyone who was selling a house/car/ any possession not to look for a fair market price.

I expect someone to now reply with a Monty Python 'If they could see us now' but this divisive claptrap I keep reading makes me want to vomit.


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## Cherry13 (May 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			This current sport of berating old people is disgusting.  Many of the people doing it suggest they are socialists as well, what kind of socialism is it that blames the ills of the young on their parents and grandparents.   These older people have just lived a life and in most cases worked damn hard, no one has given them anything and in the vast majority of cases they have worked for the best part of 50 years and grown up in what people now would call abject poverty.   Don't dare blame them for the state of the housing market, I would challenge anyone who was selling a house/car/ any possession not to look for a fair market price.

I expect someone to now reply with a Monty Python 'If they could see us now' but this divisive claptrap I keep reading makes me want to vomit.
		
Click to expand...

I blame the parents...


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You may be missing my point. Fundy highlights it in one of the posts. The current generation appear to want the latest model iPhone, iPad, MacBook, new car, holdayS abroad every year, designer gear etc yet moan that they can't afford to buy a house. Add the cost of all the luxuries together + the combined mortgage buying power and a house is affordable. Surely the priority is the house first?

There's an accounting term used in business, specifically by banks, to ascertain a company's value. Its called Economic Value Added(EVA). EVA determines whether or not a company is a good risk, and what it can afford to pay back.

Mortgage lenders apply a very similar mechanism to determine whether or not to lend to applicants. If their net salary is Â£2k a month but they have car loans, phone contracts etc etc etc, the level of mortgage they are willing to lend drops off pound for pound against the current spend.

How many oldies do you see with a phone thats several generations old, or a practical car rather than a fancy flying machine? Many of the current generation seem to think they have to have the latest everything - nowt wrong with ambition, but placing those things before buying a house...
		
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These ideas thrown together of giving young people money to help them out are all sidestepping the entire real issue though

Successive governments have failed to get a grip or control the housing market. Instead building the entire economy on a bubble. 

Prime example 4 years ago I bought my house for Â£300k roll the clock forward and itâ€™s now worth 450k.. 150k in 4 years the house has earned just sitting there. My wife would take 6 years to earn that yet the house we live in only took 4

Housing is rising out of control whilst wages are stagnating. Squeezing people from both ends.. one day itâ€™s just going to all pop


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## Cherry13 (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You're right. Clumsy generalising isn't fair. I know enough in the younger generation that have bought their own place. I guess that also highlights how stupid the suggestion is that the older generation should be taxed more to fund the youngster who can't be bothered saving.
		
Click to expand...

What generation are we talking about?  I get confused by it all? Is it millennial? Because that covers 37 (1981) - 21 (1996) Seems a pretty large span of time to throw generalisations about.  
Also the changes in that time are perhaps some of the most profound in history, the internet, social media, global commerce etc etc. 

I actually have a brother who was born in 81, and one born in 96.  They are both adept with social media, and the older one exploits it very successfully for career purposes. One was at school when the iPhone came along, the other was living in Morocco (learning his trade before anyone assumes he was having a gap year...) but yet they both get lumped into the same â€˜lazyâ€™ generalisation only want the best but donâ€™t want to pay blah blah blah.  Itâ€™s lazy, petty, and borderline offensive to be honest, and I may have said it in jest above but it typically comes from the generation that raised these people.


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			An unemployed person in Surrey is in exactly the same position as the unemployed person in Cleveland. Neither can buy a house. The point I was making is that houses are affordable to those earning a salary. *Hogan confirmed that they're also affordable to a couple on an average wage in Farnham*, i.e. the multiple of the salaries, using the Halifax's own website, shows that mortgages are available.

Strangely enough, if you go back 40 years, those unemployed in Cleveland when employment was high still couldn't afford a house.
		
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No he didn't - he said they were *unaffordable *unless you worked on a London salary. The problem isn't typically affordability of a mortgage (which is typically cheaper than renting), but funding the deposit. It would take a couple earning Â£80k between them about 4 years to save for a paltry 10% deposit, likely buying in their early 30s with a 35 year mortgage.

House prices 30 years ago were 3-5x average salary - they are now 8-10x as property inflation has vastly outstripped wage inflation. Many young peoples lives are completely on hold until they get on the ladder, which is taking far longer than previous generations. 

FWIW, IMHO this proposal from the think tank is awful - I'm not advocating that, just offering an alternative view to what you're going to get on a forum populated by golfers. There's far better ways the govt could intervene in the market in a positive way.


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			This current sport of berating old people is disgusting.  Many of the people doing it suggest they are socialists as well, what kind of socialism is it that blames the ills of the young on their parents and grandparents.   These older people have just lived a life and in most cases worked damn hard, no one has given them anything and in the vast majority of cases they have worked for the best part of 50 years and grown up in what people now would call abject poverty.   Don't dare blame them for the state of the housing market, *I would challenge anyone who was selling a house/car/ any possession not to look for a fair market price*.

I expect someone to now reply with a Monty Python 'If they could see us now' but this divisive claptrap I keep reading makes me want to vomit.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone other than extreme socialists would seriously push for Robin Hood style intervention. 

The problem is that now, your generation and the one above aren't moving on from the homes you bought for family, thereby propping up the market and preventing todays young families for buying their 2nd home, which in turn has a knock on for the availability and therefore price of entry level property.

Take the small section of housing I live between. When I moved in 4 years ago, the immediate 12 houses around me had us, 3 families and 8 retired (with 7 singletons and 1 couple). All 7 had been there 20 years plus, with 5 having been there since they were built in 1957. Theyve raised a family, seen their children raise families and are still in the same house, not able to get up stairs unassisted and using 1 bedroom, 1 reception room and 1 bathroom. These are 3 bed semi detached houses! It's not up to these people to move out simply to help out younger generations, far from it - but the govt should be offering serious incentives to encourage them to move to more suitable housing for their current needs and thereby stimulate the market with some much needed liquidity.


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## SocketRocket (May 8, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I don't think anyone other than extreme socialists would seriously push for Robin Hood style intervention. 

The problem is that now, your generation and the one above aren't moving on from the homes you bought for family, thereby propping up the market and preventing todays young families for buying their 2nd home, which in turn has a knock on for the availability and therefore price of entry level property.

Take the small section of housing I live between. When I moved in 4 years ago, the immediate 12 houses around me had us, 3 families and 8 retired (with 7 singletons and 1 couple). All 7 had been there 20 years plus, with 5 having been there since they were built in 1957. Theyve raised a family, seen their children raise families and are still in the same house, not able to get up stairs unassisted and using 1 bedroom, 1 reception room and 1 bathroom. These are 3 bed semi detached houses! It's not up to these people to move out simply to help out younger generations, far from it - but the govt should be offering serious incentives to encourage them to move to more suitable housing for their current needs and thereby stimulate the market with some much needed liquidity.
		
Click to expand...

Do you suggest they sell these houses for less than the market value?


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## TheDiablo (May 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you suggest they sell these houses for less than the market value?
		
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Nope. I suggest the government creates incentives to encourage them to move to a more suitable property for their requirements and needs at this stage in life.

Do you think it is ethical that these people continue to live in a property they arent making maximum use of whilst often running it down in the process? With families not able to move into those properties as they themselves did due to lack of supply in the market driving up prices to an unaffordable level? Kids sharing bedrooms while granny lives on her own with 2 spare rooms?


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			Nope. I suggest the government creates incentives to encourage them to move to a more suitable property for their requirements and needs at this stage in life.

Do you think it is ethical that these people continue to live in a property they arent making maximum use of whilst often running it down in the process? With families not able to move into those properties as they themselves did due to lack of supply in the market driving up prices to an unaffordable level? Kids sharing bedrooms while granny lives on her own with 2 spare rooms?
		
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Got to agree here.. my Grandad parents are in their 80s in a massive 5 bed room detached house just the 2 of them.. unfortunately they canâ€™t sell us for private reasons they had to equality realise in the 90s so the bank own like most of the house think of the 750k itâ€™s worth my Grandad would end up with 120k which wouldnâ€™t buy a box round our way.. all that for a mere Â£30k lump sum 

Disgusting really


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2018)

Article online today shows how messed up the whole system has become

Couple blocked from getting a mortgage on a home that will see their monthly payments drop by Â£500 per month so their lender would rather see them stay where they are paying Â£500 a month more

So obviously can afford the payments 

Affordability check applied wrong

Iâ€™m lucky that my payrise wipes out the difference of the wife going part time so no reason for our lender to not let me switch deals in a few months


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			This current sport of berating old people is disgusting.  Many of the people doing it suggest they are socialists as well, what kind of socialism is it that blames the ills of the young on their parents and grandparents.   *These older people have just lived a life and in most cases worked damn hard, no one has given them anything and in the vast majority of cases they have worked for the best part of 50 years and grown up in what people now would call abject poverty.*   Don't dare blame them for the state of the housing market, I would challenge anyone who was selling a house/car/ any possession not to look for a fair market price.

I expect someone to now reply with a Monty Python 'If they could see us now' but this divisive claptrap I keep reading makes me want to vomit.
		
Click to expand...

You do realise that you are just reinforcing stereotypes of old people by claiming that it is the socialists that are berating old people. And you also do realise that there was never a snowball's chance in hell of this becoming policy.  It is just a headline grabbing extreme suggestion by a think tank or organisation to grab some publicity and get people talking about the subject.  Which it has as seen by some very good posts on this thread. It's just another in a long line of utterly unworkable far out suggestions such as burn the poor, chop off the hands of anyone that went to Eton, make women prove they have been raped to get child benefit (actually scratch that, that did become policy). 

Oh and my parents are old and they didn't live in abject poverty, have a very comfortable state pension, holiday several times a year and have been able to afford a very nice house that is far too big for them through the increase in value of property. But I will grant you they drive a Peugeot very slowly, so not everything's worked out well.  I don't resent them for that, want to chuck them out of their house or wish to tax them 10 grand, but them's the facts.


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## jusme (May 9, 2018)

Some excellent and well balanced posts in this thread, however largely many of the posts I read reflect the types of problems society faces. Blame culture and selfishness. I would prefer to see people straight up admit that they care little about any one else future and as long as they are OK then that's their priority. We all to one extent or another take advantage of whatever government policy is put before us in our lives and I for one will never blame someone for doing so. Some of us are more fortunate as a result. 

We supposedly live in society where to some extent those more fortunate contribute more to support those less fortunate. I wish this sat better with a larger percentage of our population and in general the global population. 

Older people are not to blame for the challenges that younger people face today. Its human nature to do as well for yourself as you can and taking advantage of policy over your lifetime is only doing that. That being said I find it frustrating when I see the same generation denying they were not fortunate. House prices were affordable, jobs plentiful, wages decent in comparison to cost of living, education free, pensions decent, etc. Of course they worked hard, where often frugile, sensible and contributed to their comfortable position. Of course there are many retired that were not as fortunate, but that does not in itself dispel the facts of a generation. Again they are not to blame, they simply applied themselves and worked hard to build lives for themselves within the context they where given. 

Not all young people are wasters and lazy gits. You take the average person who is trying to work hard and apply themselves as the older generations done. The contexts they find themselves in are much tougher in comparison. These are simply facts that sadly some people want to deny. It is where we are now and younger people cannot look back and simply have to apply themselves as best they can to try and make their life as meaningful as they can. Its by no means bleak and in the wider context of global fortune they are wealthy and well beyond belief. 

Back to an earlier point - I would like to see a greater percentage of more fortunate people, be that through age, luck or wealth contribute a little more to help the next generation. Not a hand out society - a hand up for those that can afford it, however I know I will not see that happen willingly as largely we are a selfish animal and a selfish society


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2018)

jusme said:



			Some excellent and well balanced posts in this thread, however largely many of the posts I read reflect the types of problems society faces. Blame culture and selfishness. I would prefer to see people straight up admit that they care little about any one else future and as long as they are OK then that's their priority. We all to one extent or another take advantage of whatever government policy is put before us in our lives and I for one will never blame someone for doing so. Some of us are more fortunate as a result. 

We supposedly live in society where to some extent those more fortunate contribute more to support those less fortunate. I wish this sat better with a larger percentage of our population and in general the global population. 

Older people are not to blame for the challenges that younger people face today. Its human nature to do as well for yourself as you can and taking advantage of policy over your lifetime is only doing that. That being said I find it frustrating when I see the same generation denying they were not fortunate. House prices were affordable, jobs plentiful, wages decent in comparison to cost of living, education free, pensions decent, etc. Of course they worked hard, where often frugile, sensible and contributed to their comfortable position. Of course there are many retired that were not as fortunate, but that does not in itself dispel the facts of a generation. Again they are not to blame, they simply applied themselves and worked hard to build lives for themselves within the context they where given. 

Not all young people are wasters and lazy gits. You take the average person who is trying to work hard and apply themselves as the older generations done. The contexts they find themselves in are much tougher in comparison. These are simply facts that sadly some people want to deny. It is where we are now and younger people cannot look back and simply have to apply themselves as best they can to try and make their life as meaningful as they can. Its by no means bleak and in the wider context of global fortune they are wealthy and well beyond belief. 

Back to an earlier point - I would like to see a greater percentage of more fortunate people, be that through age, luck or wealth contribute a little more to help the next generation. Not a hand out society - a hand up for those that can afford it, however I know I will not see that happen willingly as largely we are a selfish animal and a selfish society
		
Click to expand...

Very fair post.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2018)

Retire everyone off at 55 to increase the job market.

On a more practical note, elderly people around here would love to down size but unfortunately you'll pay more here for a 2 bed bungalow than you do for a 3 bed house.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2018)

Not all is what it seems.

1980...â€¦â€¦. my neighbours daughter started her first paid job at the age of 26. Two degree courses and an MA plus a gap year for holidays.

2018...â€¦ my granddaughter started her first business aged 16 having sourced her property and built her business plan whilst still at school..lots of advice but no real financial support from her parents.
She sub lets two chairs in her rented beauty salon to a nails person and hair stylist and earns pretty decent money as a make up artist.
She was working at 6am on the day of the Scottish Grand national with a long list of bookings for ladies getting poshed up before going to the races.
I would like to think that there are many more teenagers with her drive and determination, not all are lazy feckless souls.


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## bobmac (May 9, 2018)

I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't  get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn? 

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument. 

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't  get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn? 

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument. 

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.  

Click to expand...

Itâ€™s easy to berate the young for the jobs they do. I have  a daughter who has gone self employed (being a fully qualified hairstylist and makeup artist),after being â€œlet goâ€ because she has Crohnâ€™s disease which nearly killed her, she refuses to go on benefits. 
Of course that and nail bars is a newish thing, but then the older factory or industry work isnâ€™t there anymore, so I applaud her and any young person who go out and find work and donâ€™t want to be a drain on society.
The fact the jobs market has changed so much isnâ€™t their fault, itâ€™s a product of choices and descisions made years ago by different Governments


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't  get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn? 

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

*There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument.* 

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.  

Click to expand...

Ignoring yet another bout of stereotyping of young people based on some top level research on Facebook, the whole point is that a lot has changed in society with regards to the economy, the types of jobs, housing etc etc over the years.  So no generation has 'lived through both sides', each has faced some similar but also some very different structural challenges.  And affordability of housing is a current one the younger generation are facing.


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Itâ€™s easy to berate the young for the jobs they do. I have  a daughter who has gone self employed (being a fully qualified hairstylist and makeup artist),after being â€œlet goâ€ because she has Crohnâ€™s disease which nearly killed her, she refuses to go on benefits. 
Of course that and nail bars is a newish thing, but then the older factory or industry work isnâ€™t there anymore, so I applaud her and any young person who go out and find work and donâ€™t want to be a drain on society.
*The fact the jobs market has changed so much isnâ€™t their fault, itâ€™s a product of choices and descisions made years ago by different Governments*

Click to expand...

Very good point and well done to her. I'm sure a lot of them would love to go into a 'job for life' in manufacturing with a nice pension at the end, but the reality is that they do not exist any more.  And the services they are providing is what society wants.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

And we may face a dystopian future where a relatively (or actually) impoverished younger sector of the population - with poor health care; very uncertain employment; poor and expensive housing, and a very negative perception of what a meaningless future holds - look with resentment, jealousy and avarice at a relatively well off older sector.  And the impoverished want some of what the well off have - and if government does not do anything about giving them access to some of the 'wealth' that they see that others have - then there is a risk that they will simply take actions to take it.

Unlikely?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

jusme said:



			Some excellent and well balanced posts in this thread, however largely many of the posts I read reflect the types of problems society faces. Blame culture and selfishness. I would prefer to see people straight up admit that they care little about any one else future and as long as they are OK then that's their priority. We all to one extent or another take advantage of whatever government policy is put before us in our lives and I for one will never blame someone for doing so. Some of us are more fortunate as a result. 

We supposedly live in society where to some extent those more fortunate contribute more to support those less fortunate. I wish this sat better with a larger percentage of our population and in general the global population. 

Older people are not to blame for the challenges that younger people face today. Its human nature to do as well for yourself as you can and taking advantage of policy over your lifetime is only doing that. That being said I find it frustrating when I see the same generation denying they were not fortunate. House prices were affordable, jobs plentiful, wages decent in comparison to cost of living, education free, pensions decent, etc. Of course they worked hard, where often frugile, sensible and contributed to their comfortable position. Of course there are many retired that were not as fortunate, but that does not in itself dispel the facts of a generation. Again they are not to blame, they simply applied themselves and worked hard to build lives for themselves within the context they where given. 

Not all young people are wasters and lazy gits. You take the average person who is trying to work hard and apply themselves as the older generations done. The contexts they find themselves in are much tougher in comparison. These are simply facts that sadly some people want to deny. It is where we are now and younger people cannot look back and simply have to apply themselves as best they can to try and make their life as meaningful as they can. Its by no means bleak and in the wider context of global fortune they are wealthy and well beyond belief. 

Back to an earlier point - I would like to see a greater percentage of more fortunate people, be that through age, luck or wealth contribute a little more to help the next generation. Not a hand out society - a hand up for those that can afford it, *however I know I will not see that happen willingly as largely we are a selfish animal and a selfish society*

Click to expand...

Which I fear is where we are today - a place we as a country were not some 50yrs ago.


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## IanM (May 9, 2018)

Sounds like what has been happening for centuries.  Some folk are poor, some are rich.  My grandfather said the only thing he feared was poverty.

When you look are how Government spends our (tax) money, much of it is shocking


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we may face a dystopian future where a relatively (or actually) impoverished younger sector of the population - with poor health care; very uncertain employment; poor and expensive housing, and a very negative perception of what a meaningless future holds - look with resentment, jealousy and avarice at a relatively well off older sector.  And the impoverished want some of what the well off have - and if government does not do anything about giving them access to some of the 'wealth' that they see that others have - then there is a risk that they will simply take actions to take it.

Unlikely?
		
Click to expand...

I think there will be some resentment which you can see a bit in increasing generational divides on a lot of issues. But eventually the old people will die and take a lot of their attitudes, thinking and structures with them.  And the generations replacing them will just adapt to their current circumstances and find solutions based on a new way of living, working, mobility and socialising, probably using technology a lot. 

I'm sure they will be fine.  As long as we do not screw up the environment too much or start WW3 before they get the chance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think there will be some resentment which you can see a bit in increasing generational divides on a lot of issues. But eventually the old people will die and take a lot of their attitudes, thinking and structures with them.  And the generations replacing them will just adapt to their current circumstances and find solutions based on a new way of living, working, mobility and socialising, probably using technology a lot. 

I'm sure they will be fine.  As long as we do not screw up the environment too much or start WW3 before they get the chance.
		
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I hope that you are right - but current attitudes of quite a lot of us relative 'oldies' do little to mitigate the risk or ameliorate the issue.


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## Hacker Khan (May 9, 2018)

Anyway, it those of us stuck in the middle who are the real victims here.  We had neither jobs for life with nice pensions and easily affordable housing the elderly had, or instant access to any music or film you want that the kids enjoy.  #preyforthemiddleaged


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## bobmac (May 9, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Itâ€™s easy to berate the young for the jobs they do.
		
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I never mentioned anyones jobs.
If you read my post again it was about how the younger generation spend their money.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Anyway, it those of us stuck in the middle who are the real victims here.  We had neither jobs for life with nice pensions and easily affordable housing the elderly had, or instant access to any music or film you want that the kids enjoy.  #preyforthemiddleaged 

Click to expand...

as opposed to preying _on _the middle aged


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## bobmac (May 9, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ignoring yet another bout of stereotyping of young people based on some top level research on Facebook,
		
Click to expand...

Nevertheless, they are facts.


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## TheDiablo (May 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I only have to glance at my local Facebook buying/selling page to see what young people spend their money on.

Oven cleaning services, dog walkers, take aways, tattoos, eyebrow waxing, hair, nails and make up salons, ready meals, huge car stereos, broken iphone screens, takeaways, car valet services, takeaways, and one I really don't  get.........clothes/shoes for sale with tags, never worn? 

No wonder they're always skint.

If they cant be bothered to do all that themselves, why should the tax payer pay somone to do it for them?

*There's only one generation that can see both sides of this argument and that's the generation who has lived through both sides of the argument. *

One thing I would like to see is free bus passes given to young people rather than retired couples who have a car each, that would help. I have two couples as neighbours (all around 70) who have 5 cars between them and a bus pass each which they never use.  

Click to expand...

There's also only one generation in the last 150 years who are poorer than their parents at the same age. There is only 1 generation that is still poorer in 2018 than they were in 2007 (hint: it isnt the one who caused the biggest financial crash in 75 years).

In the 8 years following the crash (you know, when youth unemployment rose, zero hour contracts became prevalent, company pensions were slashed etc etc) the property market actually rose by 50%, compared to GDP which rose by 20%, meaning the generation of homeowners wealth substantially increased thanks to government macroeconomic monetary policy whilst those without property wealth decreased,  causing the mess the market finds itself in today.

Saving 5% of disposable income, it takes 20 years for a low/middle income family to save for a deposit in 2018. It took 3 years for the same group to save in 1998.

So no, there isnt a generation that has 'lived through both sides of the argument' whatsoever.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which I fear is where we are today - a place we as a country were not some 50yrs ago.
		
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Romanticised rubbish!

Society is no more or less selfish now than it was 50 years ago.

To some extent the older generation have always regarded the young as reckless and the young have resented the old. 

The preconceived notions have existed since time began. 

BTW I can remember 1968, not certain that some others can.


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## Blue in Munich (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			There's also only one generation in the last 150 years who are poorer than their parents at the same age. There is only 1 generation that is still poorer in 2018 than they were in 2007* (hint: it isnt the one who caused the biggest financial crash in 75 years).*

In the 8 years following the crash (you know, when youth unemployment rose, zero hour contracts became prevalent, company pensions were slashed etc etc) the property market actually rose by 50%, compared to GDP which rose by 20%, meaning the generation of homeowners wealth substantially increased thanks to government macroeconomic monetary policy whilst those without property wealth decreased,  causing the mess the market finds itself in today.

Saving 5% of disposable income, it takes 20 years for a low/middle income family to save for a deposit in 2018. It took 3 years for the same group to save in 1998.

So no, there isnt a generation that has 'lived through both sides of the argument' whatsoever.
		
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Hint;  I think you'll find that was the banking industry, not the old people.

And yes, I'm absolutely rolling in it because of the value of my house.  all I need to do to realise that wealth is make myself homeless.........


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## Blue in Munich (May 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we may face a dystopian future where a relatively (or actually) impoverished younger sector of the population - with poor health care; very uncertain employment; poor and expensive housing, and a very negative perception of what a meaningless future holds - look with resentment, jealousy and avarice at a relatively well off older sector.  *And the impoverished want some of what the well off have - and if government does not do anything about giving them access to some of the 'wealth' that they see that others have - then there is a risk that they will simply take actions to take it.*

*Unlikely?*

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I think so; doubt I'll be popping home anytime soon to find that someone's stolen the house.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			Saving 5% of disposable income, it takes 20 years for a low/middle income family to save for a deposit in 2018. It took 3 years for the same group to save in 1998.

So no, there isnt a generation that has 'lived through both sides of the argument' whatsoever.
		
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5% of my net salary in 1980 was Â£225. Deposit was 10% = Â£1500, for a 2 bed terraced. And deep joy, interest rates at the time were 12%, rising to 15% by 1982.

3 years?


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## londonlewis (May 9, 2018)

Managed to read the first 6 pages of this thread. Some really interesting views. 

I'm 35. Own my own house, have no debt except my mortgage, have never been on benefits and have a degree. 

For younger generations coming through, I feel sorry for quite a few of them. Not the ones that will be terrible with money all their life, then complain that things aren't fair. But the ones that are motivated, will be employed but potentially struggle. 

The cost of a higher education today is insane. Too many people are being pushed towards completing a degree and leave university with Â£40-50k debt and a lack of ability to get a decent job. In this regard, I definitely feel like the 20-somethings in this country are disadvantaged in comparison to my generation (Â£1200 tuition fees) and generations before me, who could either go to Uni for free or expect to get a decent job without a degree. 

House prices today are also insane. I (my wife and I) had to make sacrifices to save money for our first deposit and by doing so we were able to buy our first home when I was 28 (the cradle snatcher was 34). Yet my dad bought his first house when he was 21, whilst my mum didn't work. My father started working at 16 and bought his house after 5 years working. My wife and I had to work a combined 19 years to buy our first house. 
The issue is getting worse. Considering they expect 40% of my generation to rent all their lives, what hope is there for future generations? 
My grandparents' generation were able to afford to buy a house on one worker's salary, have a full-time housewife who never worked as well as 5 children. Sure money was tight after all of this but it was possible, for the masses. This generation can't do this and don't do this. 

The working environment in some regards is so much better now than it was for previous generations. But arguably worse when you consider pensions and not being able to be a one-company-employee. Gone are the days where you can start on the bottom rung of the ladder and one day become the CEO of the same company. 

All-in-all, I'm worried for my kids. They are 4 and 1. I'm worried they are going to be living under a pile of debt all their lives and not being able to retire before they die. That's the direction this is going. It's scary. 

*Entitlement: *
One of the things my dad says often about people in their 20s. 
The message is basically 'my generation did it, by themselves, by their bootstraps, we worked hard, we were given nothing' and this generation 'expects to be given everything, are lazy, want to get to the top without working hard' etc... 
For me, I just worry that we aren't providing next generations with the same opportunities and it isn't a level playing field.  

Like I say, I'm worried for my kids.


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## londonlewis (May 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			5% of my net salary in 1980 was Â£225. Deposit was 10% = Â£1500, for a 2 bed terraced. And deep joy, interest rates at the time were 12%, rising to 15% by 1982.

3 years?
		
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But at 15% you were still able to survive each month, I imagine. 

I don't think that's possible today. 
Average house price today is Â£212k. With a 10% deposit your mortgage would be Â£190k. At 15% interest rates, your mortgage repayment would be Â£2,433 per month. 
Once you pay your coincil tax, water, electicity and gas you wouldn't have anything left for food. 

It's really not the same. I don't want to give the impression that I think the older generations had it easy but I am not sure if the right consideration is being made for how hard younger generations have it.


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## pendodave (May 9, 2018)

I'm middle aged (born 1964) with kids just ending education or early in their working careers.

London Lewis is spot on for me.

I am surprised that so many people who I respect on this board are so unaware of how lucky they were to be born when they were. I was born poor, now I'm not. But I'm not so vainglorious as to think that a significant part of that journey wasn't the pure good fortune to be born in the right place at the right time.

As for a solution, throwing money at them doesn't seem the most appropriate. Fixing the nonsense that is the current housing situation, rolling back some of the 'innovative' employment practices and restructuring tax so that it targets capital (which a small number of people have rather a lot of) rather than labour (which for a great many people is all they have) would seem good starting points.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 9, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I never mentioned anyones jobs.
If you read my post again it was about how the younger generation spend their money.
		
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I dont need to re-read your post, those services you complain about are services that some have decided to do for a living. They are services that provide employment and income to those willing to apply themselves in a jobs markets shorn of the industry of years back. Surely you have heard Government saying we are a services lead country now?

Its not just younger people that use some of these newer services. Just because the shampoo and set or blue rinse isn't common anymore doesnt mean older ladies arent spending their money on the same things.

Would you rather they all be claiming benefits instead?


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## londonlewis (May 9, 2018)

pendodave said:



			London Lewis is spot on for me.
		
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I'm going to get this framed and hang it up at home for the wife to see. 

Cheers Dave,
Lewis


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2018)

The argument for me still comes down to house prices.. my house is worth Â£450k to get 10% deposit on that I would need an entire years net wages 

Thatâ€™s not just sacrifice thatâ€™s not even paying rent or any out going for a year


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Romanticised rubbish!

Society is no more or less selfish now than it was 50 years ago.

To some extent the older generation have always regarded the young as reckless and the young have resented the old. 

The preconceived notions have existed since time began. 

BTW I can remember 1968, not certain that some others can.
		
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Not in my opinion.  I think that there is a much greater degree of entitlement; of 'self', and of demanding what is felt as being 'due' and 'deserved' than in the past - and that through the medium of social media, expressions by one or some of such expressions give credence to others expressing the same.

Just ask any nurse, midwife or doctor of 25+ yrs experience.


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## IanM (May 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not in my opinion.  I think that there is a much greater degree of entitlement; of 'self', and of demanding what is felt as being 'due' and 'deserved' than in the past -
		
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I agree... and the wallies who produced the original report in this thread are adding to it.  Fee cash by taxing someone else.  We have people for who welfare is a life choice not a safety net.


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## TheDiablo (May 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			5% of my net salary in 1980 was Â£225. Deposit was 10% = Â£1500, for a 2 bed terraced. And deep joy, interest rates at the time were 12%, rising to 15% by 1982.

3 years?
		
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I was going on studies conducted using ONS data, comparing 1998 with 2018. I'm unsure of the relevance of an individuals salary 18 years prior.


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## TheDiablo (May 9, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hint;  I think you'll find that was the banking industry, not the old people.

And yes, I'm absolutely rolling in it because of the value of my house.  all I need to do to realise that wealth is make myself homeless.........
		
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The financial service industry and political class run by the baby boomer generation. Not to mention inidividuals reckless attitude to finance in that period - none of these decisions were made by the younger generation yet they are the ones facing the consequences. At least with Brexit we screwed ourselves by not voting enough! 

And you're literally complaining about having wealth  in the 2nd paragraph.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			I agree... and the wallies who produced the original report in this thread are adding to it.  Fee cash by taxing someone else.  We have people for who welfare is a life choice not a safety net.
		
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As a previous post suggested - I suspect the report was aimed at stoking discussion and debate on the inter-generational divide.  Though you have introduced_ 'welfare as a life choice'_ into this when the suggestions made seem very much not 'welfare' in the sense that you state - indeed the Â£10k seems more like a grant - to be provided on the applicant making a good 'business case'.  It doesn't sound to me like a 'give-away' to all and sundry including those for whom benefits are the sole source of 'income'.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I was going on studies conducted using ONS data, comparing 1998 with 2018. I'm unsure of the relevance of an individuals salary 18 years prior.
		
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A first time buyer in 1998 would likely be born in the early '70s so would not be a member of the "baby boomer" generation that you appear to hold responsible for all of society's ills.

Therefore, Hobbit's stats, rather than your own, would seem far more relevant to the discussion.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I was going on studies conducted using ONS data, comparing 1998 with 2018. I'm unsure of the relevance of an individuals salary 18 years prior.
		
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I'm willing to accept your data but you seem unwilling to accept that 18 years earlier life wasn't so sweet.

That aside, I have no beef with anyone that is willing to graft to get where they want to be, irrespective of whatever generation they're from. Its those that moan about not being able to x,y,z without even trying and then expect the state to do it for them. In this case, the state to take from one generation and give to another - sorry but I grafted 60-70 hour weeks, including getting evening work, I'm not happy giving to those who won't graft as I did.

Martin Lewis was on Question Time this week, in which this issue was also debated. He said pretty much as several on here have said, "its insulting to the current generation to question how hard it is to afford a house today." He also said, "it is possible to save for a deposit over a few years but the young need to start saving as soon as possible."


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2018)

londonlewis said:



*Entitlement: *
One of the things my dad says often about people in their 20s. 
The message is basically 'my generation did it, by themselves, by their bootstraps, we worked hard, we were given nothing' and this generation 'expects to be given everything, are lazy, want to get to the top without working hard' etc... 
For me, I just worry that we aren't providing next generations with the same opportunities and it isn't a level playing field.  

Like I say, I'm worried for my kids. 

View attachment 24936

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There definitely isn't the opportunities for the young of today, although I'm immensely proud to see what my children have achieved through hard graft.

Where are the apprenticeships today? I remember apprentices at British Steel deciding to jump ship to ICI apprenticeships because they paid more. There isn't 40+ apprenticeships at British Steel and ICI on Teesside each now. I doubt there's even 10 at Tata Steel. And then there were apprenticeships in shipbuilding and countless other industries locally.

On the one hand, university places for all but on the other, what jobs at the end of it?


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## Bunkermagnet (May 9, 2018)

I do wonder how long the mass unenployment and job losses of the 80's affects familiers and offspring, and how that fosters those intergenerational ill-feeling the initial report was talking about.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			But at 15% you were still able to survive each month, I imagine. 

I don't think that's possible today. 
Average house price today is Â£212k. With a 10% deposit your mortgage would be Â£190k. At 15% interest rates, your mortgage repayment would be Â£2,433 per month. 
Once you pay your coincil tax, water, electicity and gas you wouldn't have anything left for food. 

It's really not the same. I don't want to give the impression that I think the older generations had it easy but I am not sure if the right consideration is being made for how hard younger generations have it.
		
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Oh it definitely wasn't easy. It was a struggle to see repayments going up and, although salaries followed eventually, thank god we hadn't started a family then. We did our calculations based on one wage, and didn't borrow as much as we could. Some borrowed to the hilt, and house repossessions were high.


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## chrisd (May 9, 2018)

For the first couple of years my mortgage cost about 70% of my take home pay in 1975


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## TheDiablo (May 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I'm willing to accept your data but you seem unwilling to accept that 18 years earlier life wasn't so sweet.

That aside, I have no beef with anyone that is willing to graft to get where they want to be, irrespective of whatever generation they're from. Its those that moan about not being able to x,y,z without even trying and then expect the state to do it for them. In this case, the state to take from one generation and give to another - sorry but I grafted 60-70 hour weeks, including getting evening work, I'm not happy giving to those who won't graft as I did.

Martin Lewis was on Question Time this week, in which this issue was also debated. He said pretty much as several on here have said, "its insulting to the current generation to question how hard it is to afford a house today." He also said, "it is possible to save for a deposit over a few years but the young need to start saving as soon as possible."
		
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I've never said life was easy for past generations, I'm not naive enough to think it was and certainly think myself lucky to be born at a time with the world on my doorstep and the internet revolution. But every previous generation has managed to leave the opportunity for the the next generation as a whole to prosper, until now, which is my overriding point. And the government doesn't really care as Politics is self interest and short term - do enough to get reelected in 5 years time and thats about the crux of it.

As has been stated a few times, the suggestion is an extreme one and highly unlikely in reality, yet even they propose it is not simply given to anyone and everyone at 25, unlike the headlines would have you believe.

Anyway, I'm out from here. I've enjoyed the debate which is something I rarely have time for - tomorrow I go back to work following 2 weeks paternity leave and certainly wont have the time to continue back and forth.

I do find it very interesting that throughout the pages so many posters immediately revert to 'well I did this', 'my kids did that', 'my niece is Karen Brady' etc, which completely misses the point.

FWIW, my personal context around this is far from one of greed or sense of entitlement, but from being in the middle of the generation that graduated at the peak of the crash with Â£30k debt and when combined with inaccessible property prices seeing the shackles that can impose on bright, hard-working, motivated people. I'm a lucky one - before I turned 27 I had paid off my student loan and put a 25% deposit down on a 3 bed semi in Surrey that has since risen by Â£120k in less than 4 years through hard work through uni and since. I hope this shows that my position in the debate really isnt driven out of entitlement or jealousy.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do realise that you are just reinforcing stereotypes of old people by claiming that it is the socialists that are berating old people. And you also do realise that there was never a snowball's chance in hell of this becoming policy.  It is just a headline grabbing extreme suggestion by a think tank or organisation to grab some publicity and get people talking about the subject.  Which it has as seen by some very good posts on this thread. It's just another in a long line of utterly unworkable far out suggestions such as burn the poor, chop off the hands of anyone that went to Eton, make women prove they have been raped to get child benefit (actually scratch that, that did become policy). 

Oh and my parents are old and they didn't live in abject poverty, have a very comfortable state pension, holiday several times a year and have been able to afford a very nice house that is far too big for them through the increase in value of property. But I will grant you they drive a Peugeot very slowly, so not everything's worked out well.  I don't resent them for that, want to chuck them out of their house or wish to tax them 10 grand, but them's the facts.
		
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Your parents sound very fortunate and good luck to them.  I must have grown up very differently, I wont explain detail of what that means but please believe me that my childhood was a place where my family and the others in my neighborhood lived in relative poverty to the way people live today.   I just dont get the current trend of suggesting baby Boomers are greedy and have somehow robbed the young of their life expectations.   Does anyone actually believe that whilst growing up they had the intention of making their children's or Grandchildren's lives difficult.  If Millennials grew up under the same conditions would they have made different choices?


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## jim8flog (May 9, 2018)

I would find this a bit of a joke but they seem to be treating it seriously.

I am a retiree but no big company or private pension for me. What I have got I got because I squirelled as much as possible as I could througout my life.

The first house came fairly early in married life but mainly due to helpful parents. We di not have TV at all for the first two years of ownership.  No cooker for the first 3 moths until we could save the deposit for the Hire Purchase of one, no washing machine until we paid off the loan for the cooker and just a very old donated fridge.  No telephone until we bought our second house no car for the first 3 years of home ownership. We did not have any holidays for the first 5 years.

Can you imagine today's younger generation  going through that just to own a home

Through a large part of our mortgage we paid interest rate between 8 and 13%.

We finally ended up mortgage free because I put the money to pay it off in to a endowment savings plan.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I've never said life was easy for past generations, I'm not naive enough to think it was and certainly think myself lucky to be born at a time with the world on my doorstep and the internet revolution. But every previous generation has managed to leave the opportunity for the the next generation as a whole to prosper, until now, which is my overriding point. And the government doesn't really care as Politics is self interest and short term - do enough to get reelected in 5 years time and thats about the crux of it.

As has been stated a few times, the suggestion is an extreme one and highly unlikely in reality, yet even they propose it is not simply given to anyone and everyone at 25, unlike the headlines would have you believe.

Anyway, I'm out from here. I've enjoyed the debate which is something I rarely have time for - tomorrow I go back to work following 2 weeks paternity leave and certainly wont have the time to continue back and forth.

I do find it very interesting that throughout the pages so many posters immediately revert to 'well I did this', 'my kids did that', 'my niece is Karen Brady' etc, which completely misses the point.

FWIW, my personal context around this is far from one of greed or sense of entitlement, but from being in the middle of the generation that graduated at the peak of the crash with Â£30k debt and when combined with inaccessible property prices seeing the shackles that can impose on bright, hard-working, motivated people. I'm a lucky one - before I turned 27 I had paid off my student loan and put a 25% deposit down on a 3 bed semi in Surrey that has since risen by Â£120k in less than 4 years through hard work through uni and since. I hope this shows that my position in the debate really isnt driven out of entitlement or jealousy.
		
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You do understand that your University Degree was subsidised by the older taxpayer who probably never had the opertunity of going to university; dont you?    If it helps to ease your sense of loss you were not the only one to lose out by the financial crash, it hit baby boomers as well, my pension pot shrunk by Â£40K in the week I used it to purchase an annuity.


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## Ross61 (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			The financial service industry and political class run by the baby boomer generation.* Not to mention inidividuals reckless attitude to finance in that period* - none of these decisions were made by the younger generation yet they are the ones facing the consequences. At least with Brexit we screwed ourselves by not voting enough! 

And you're literally complaining about having wealth  in the 2nd paragraph.
		
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The reckless spending in that period were not typical, just the ones that were already rich. I bought my flat in 1983 at 21 years old. My friends thought I was mad, but I was determined. Interest rates were 12% and only went up in the following years. I knew what I was getting into, no I couldnâ€™t really afford it. I had to go without heating virtually stop going out, had no holidays and did everything for myself. I furnished the flat by things from my bedroom at my parents and bought all my white goods second hand from the local paper + my 3 piece suite was one a work colleague was throwing away. Do I regret it? Not a chance. Iâ€™ve moved 4 times since. Each time moving to a larger house stretching myself financially but not as much as the purchase of my flat. during the dark days of conservatism and interest rates going up several times a year and even in one day, I got myself an evening job delivering pizzas. 
 You donâ€™t need handouts you need graft and determination.
Anyone that was the wrong side of Thatcherism will tell you it was really scary.
As for the financial institutions they just got ridiculous. In 2007 I moved to my present house I applied for a mortgage of Â£110,000 which was 3 x my salary + 1 times overtime. ( my wife has rarely worked due to long standing health issues) I worked out that We could just about afford that. We went to the building society and asked for thar amount and was asked â€œare you sure that is all you want, the computer says you can afford Â£134,000â€ I turned down their kindly offer knowing they were talking rubbish.


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## Mudball (May 9, 2018)

As a 70s child I am caught in the middle, so donâ€™t get me started on mortgages...  nearly half my pay goes directly to the mortgage overlords. We made a choice that a few bleak years are worth it to keep the roof on us rather than pay it as rent. 

I donâ€™t subscribe to this 10k handout either. If I got 10k when I was 25 it would end up in a bar in Benidorm rather than buying shares in Apple. 

Some more
1) we talk about student debt. This is a real problem.. but I am told that students donâ€™t repay it till they get to a certain threshold pay. It is also expected that many wonâ€™t repay this. So if your education helps you get a good job then do pay it back. Think of it as tax. 

2) if the Govt is so concerned with homeownership then why not introduce tax relief on mortgage payments on primary residence. 

3) multiple homeownership is not a societal issue but an investment issue. Prudent savers chose to invest in property because others areas are limited. Bank deposits hardly provide any returns while writing off entire mortgage as expense does. This was a clearly a negative impact of a tax policy which is the opposite of what I suggested in #2. In many ways the removal of tax incentives for BTL homes is finally a good idea 

Every generation thinks that they are smarter and more entitled than their previous. In another 40 years these 25yr old 10k seekers will be on a similar forum berating the then 25 yr olds who never had it so easy while they only got 10k


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## TheDiablo (May 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You do understand that your University Degree was subsidised by the older taxpayer who probably never had the opertunity of going to university; dont you?    If it helps to ease your sense of loss you were not the only one to lose out by the financial crash, it hit baby boomers as well, my pension pot shrunk by Â£40K in the week I used it to purchase an annuity.
		
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I know I said I was out, but it's people like you, with tit for tat selfish attitudes like yours that cause such large rifts between generations.


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2018)

This thread is priceless. Full of bland stereotypes and misplaced ire. Fwiw, I bought my first house in 99 on a whim after having a drunken argument with a girlfriend. Â£2k deposit and a couch and TV to move in with. Spent the next 3 years gradually doing it up whilst supporting an alcohol dependency and a mild drug habit. Great times ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I know I said I was out, but it's people like you, with tit for tat selfish attitudes like yours that cause such large rifts between generations.
		
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You started it and seem rather bent on this tit for tat attitude.  How very adult to label someone with a different view as selfish.


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## TheDiablo (May 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You started it and seem rather bent on this tit for tat attitude.  How very adult to label someone with a different view as selfish.
		
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I honestly don't think you've read my posts properly, certainly not the one you responded to and if so I have no understanding why you went with such a personal and aggressive tone. 

I've genuinely enjoyed debating the topic and each persons responses including those with complete opposite opinion and experience to my own. That is until your post, which should say something.l about you. As I said earlier I'm trying to put across an alternative view to those you're going to find on a golf forum.

Anyway, I'm done, have a good evening.


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## clubchamp98 (May 9, 2018)

Surely one age group canâ€™t be responsible for another ones problems .
I am sixty and worked for everything I own.
Its policy makers and politicians who promise things they know canâ€™t be delivered 
that are the problem.
I was told I would get my state pension at 65 but they have renaiged on that.

Also giving 25 yr olds money may be ageist ( you never know these days) and may be challenged by every other age in the country.

Typical of this country charge young people to be educated then give them money to offset some of the debts.

All taxpayers cash of course!


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I honestly don't think you've read my posts properly, certainly not the one you responded to and if so I have no understanding why you went with such a personal and aggressive tone. 

I've genuinely enjoyed debating the topic and each persons responses including those with complete opposite opinion and experience to my own. That is until your post, which should say something.l about you. *As I said earlier I'm trying to put across an alternative view to those you're going to find on a golf forum.*

Anyway, I'm done, have a good evening.
		
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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			The financial service industry and political class run by the baby boomer generation. Not to mention inidividuals reckless attitude to finance in that period - none of these decisions were made by the younger generation yet they are the ones facing the consequences. At least with Brexit we screwed ourselves by not voting enough! 

And you're literally complaining about having wealth  in the 2nd paragraph.
		
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And you're completely completely missing the point of the second paragraph; I'm not rolling in it.  

I'm told by some that I'm rolling in it because I own a house that estate agents value at a ridiculous price.  Apparently no-one can afford to buy property at this price, but if they could, to realise the value of the asset I have to get rid of it.  As I now have nowhere to live, I have to spend that money buying another one, so I'm now poor again.  Or I need to move miles away from my friends, family and the things that I do in order to retain the money that I've made.  So I'm now cash rich but lifestyle poor. 

But according to some I'm rolling in it because of the value that estate agents place on my house.

Do you not see that the wealth I'm supposed to have because I own a house doesn't actually exist?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			And you're completely completely missing the point of the second paragraph; I'm not rolling in it.  

I'm told by some that I'm rolling in it because I own a house that estate agents value at a ridiculous price.  Apparently no-one can afford to buy property at this price, but if they could, to realise the value of the asset I have to get rid of it.  As I now have nowhere to live, I have to spend that money buying another one, so I'm now poor again.  Or I need to move miles away from my friends, family and the things that I do in order to retain the money that I've made.  So I'm now cash rich but lifestyle poor. 

But according to some I'm rolling in it because of the value that estate agents place on my house.

Do you not see that the wealth I'm supposed to have because I own a house doesn't actually exist?
		
Click to expand...

But all your problems can be easily solved by joining an equity release scheme, and you could also benefit when it becomes the next PPI scandal. &#128077;

And you get a free pen &#128077;&#128077;


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## bobmac (May 10, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But all your problems can be easily solved by joining an equity release scheme, and you could also benefit when it becomes the next PPI scandal. ï‘

And you get a free pen ï‘ï‘
		
Click to expand...

So they are getting Â£10,000 AND a free pen?


They should move to Lincolnshire.......

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65199037.html


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So they are getting Â£10,000 AND a free pen?


They should move to Lincolnshire.......

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65199037.html

Click to expand...

I went to Sleaford once..........it was closed ðŸ˜‚


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## bobmac (May 10, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I went to Sleaford once..........it was closed &#62978;
		
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That's only because you told them you were coming


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2018)

Chortle &#128077;


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## spongebob59 (May 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So they are getting Â£10,000 AND a free pen?


They should move to Lincolnshire.......

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65199037.html

Click to expand...

Any nice courses nearby ðŸ˜œ


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I went to Sleaford once..........it was closed &#62978;
		
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You got lucky. I went there and it was open... Lots of people with 6 fingers and eyebrows that meet in the middle.


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## bobmac (May 10, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Any nice courses nearby &#63004;
		
Click to expand...

Woodhall Spa is about 20 mins away


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So they are getting Â£10,000 AND a free pen?


They should move to Lincolnshire.......

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65199037.html

Click to expand...

or...â€¦â€¦â€¦. Â£130k for this little beauty a few miles from Ayr.


https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/d...5fd26491d579b8f0aa61cf2c6#stzghQFJj7JZSKv3.97


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You got lucky. I went there and it was open... Lots of people with 6 fingers and eyebrows that meet in the middle.
		
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Cousins of yours then? Do they have big feet too ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


You line em up Brian, Iâ€™ll knock em down ðŸ‘ðŸ˜Ž


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Cousins of yours then? Do they have big feet too ï˜‚ï˜‚


You line em up Brian, Iâ€™ll knock em down ï‘ï˜Ž
		
Click to expand...

They were too tall to be Hobbits


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## bobmac (May 10, 2018)

Or if you want to rent........

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-20624907.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



*Surely one age group canâ€™t be responsible for another ones problems .*
I am sixty and worked for everything I own.
Its policy makers and politicians who promise things they know canâ€™t be delivered 
that are the problem.
I was told I would get my state pension at 65 but they have renaiged on that.

Also giving 25 yr olds money may be ageist ( you never know these days) and may be challenged by every other age in the country.

Typical of this country charge young people to be educated then give them money to offset some of the debts.

All taxpayers cash of course!
		
Click to expand...

No - of course they can't - but they can help sort it.  

I am in a position where *I was fortunate enough to get a good state and uni education for free; to live through a period where good stable jobs were relatively available; and where housing was affordable. * And at the same time my parents - who chose to buy the best house they could afford (and that was not a lot) - not as an investment, but as a more stable and pleasant environment in which to bring up their children - found in their retirement that their home was worth more money than they could ever have conceived of.  And so - as one of that very fortunate generation - *I find myself benefitting from an inheritance that my parents never envisaged, planned or worked to provide me with.  *

What my parents hoped and worked for, for myself and my siblings, was not to hand over monetary wealth in an inheritance from the family home.  What my parents worked for was simply to bring us up in a nice environment; enable us to get a good education; and to help us stand on our own two feet when we first set out on our own - as best they could.  And for my parents there was a little bit of financial support - but most was support in kind.

And as a result of them succeeding with us - I have been able to get a career and a home.  And I have most certainly not worked anything like as hard as my parents did to get to where I am today - once again with a house worth much more than I could ever envisage owning.  I do not pretend that I deserve what I have today because I have slogged my backside off for it.  *I have been very, very fortunate.  *My wife and I have worked hard and have not had an extravagant lifestyle - though we have not actually given up that much - again that depends upon what you expect to have and my expectations stayed low.  But I look to my 23 and 26yr olds - and they have a very much harder task and life ahead of them than I had at their age.  Very much harder.  

I can afford to help my children out financially and I am doing so and will.  But unless those of their age from less fortunate backgrounds get similar support - and only the state can provide that - then the cycle and division of 'haves' and 'have nots' will be perpetuated - and that I think is unsustainable in the long run for a stable society. 

So what are we gong to do about it?


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## Mudball (May 10, 2018)

While everyone is taking about how the older generation had 'stable' jobs while the young ones dont.  Lest not forget that this is not particularly a UK specific problem.  The world has changed a lot in the past 30-40 years.  It is a lot flatter and unforgiving.  Young uns from Bolton are no longer competing against those from Birmingham or Brighton alone but also those from Baltimore, Bangalore and Beijing.  In the coming years, Robotics, AI et al are going to make it even more weirder. In case you missed it, check out the Google AI bot make an appointment like a human being.    More jobs are going to be lost as a result of machines in the coming years.  You can argue that Driverless cars will take away jobs from young taxi drivers but make it easier for pensioners to get from home to hospital or golf course.   
So will the young have a rage against the machines or are we going to tax machine/bots to pay for jobs that are displaced and hand that money to the young?  

Taxation is only part of the solution (if it is a solution).  Education is a bigger part and successive Govts have ensured that we rob schools & universities in the name of austerity & belt tightening.  We are going out of our way to not prepare the young for the new world but putting sticky plaster on vote banks or embracing isolationism rather than globalisation  
</rant> :sbox:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2018)

Mudball said:



*While everyone is taking about how the older generation had 'stable' jobs while the young ones dont.  Lest not forget that this is not particularly a UK specific problem.  The world has changed a lot in the past 30-40 years.  It is a lot flatter and unforgiving.  Young uns from Bolton are no longer competing against those from Birmingham or Brighton alone but also those from Baltimore, Bangalore and Beijing.  In the coming years, Robotics, AI et al are going to make it even more weirder. In case you missed it, check out the Google AI bot make an appointment like a human being.    More jobs are going to be lost as a result of machines in the coming years.  You can argue that Driverless cars will take away jobs from young taxi drivers but make it easier for pensioners to get from home to hospital or golf course.   
So will the young have a rage against the machines or are we going to tax machine/bots to pay for jobs that are displaced and hand that money to the young?  *

Taxation is only part of the solution (if it is a solution).  Education is a bigger part and successive Govts have ensured that we rob schools & universities in the name of austerity & belt tightening.  We are going out of our way to not prepare the young for the new world but putting sticky plaster on vote banks or embracing isolationism rather than globalisation  
</rant> :sbox:
		
Click to expand...

Notwithstanding your observations on the global economy and IT-based workplace - we are led to believe that the young and unemployed needn't worry about jobs in the future as once we have slashed immigration post-Brexit there will be plenty of well-paid jobs available - apparently.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Notwithstanding your observations on the global economy and IT-based workplace - we are led to believe that the young and unemployed needn't worry about jobs in the future as once we have slashed immigration post-Brexit there will be plenty of well-paid jobs available - apparently.
		
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Do you have any links showing immigration will be slashed and there'll be plenty of well paid jobs available, post-Brexit?

Thats not withstanding that unemployment is the best its been since 1984...


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2018)

Mudball said:



			While everyone is taking about how the older generation had 'stable' jobs while the young ones dont.  Lest not forget that this is not particularly a UK specific problem.  The world has changed a lot in the past 30-40 years.  It is a lot flatter and unforgiving.  Young uns from Bolton are no longer competing against those from Birmingham or Brighton alone but also those from Baltimore, Bangalore and Beijing.  In the coming years, Robotics, AI et al are going to make it even more weirder. In case you missed it, check out the Google AI bot make an appointment like a human being.    More jobs are going to be lost as a result of machines in the coming years.  You can argue that Driverless cars will take away jobs from young taxi drivers but make it easier for pensioners to get from home to hospital or golf course.   
So will the young have a rage against the machines *or are we going to tax machine/bots to pay for jobs that are displaced and hand that money to the young? * 

Taxation is only part of the solution (if it is a solution).  Education is a bigger part and successive Govts have ensured that we rob schools & universities in the name of austerity & belt tightening.  We are going out of our way to not prepare the young for the new world but putting sticky plaster on vote banks or embracing isolationism rather than globalisation  
</rant> :sbox:
		
Click to expand...

A few countries are looking at the idea of an universal payment to all every month to all to make up for the fact that there will be so few jobs around. Can't wait to see the outcry on golf forums when that one is introduced.... 

_"Dear Daily Mail, I find the new payments disgusting, I've worked all my life for thrupence a week licking the roads clean and now people are getting paid for doing nowt apart from sitting around all day talking to their robot dog." _


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Do you have any links showing immigration will be slashed and there'll be plenty of well paid jobs available, post-Brexit?

Thats not withstanding that unemployment is the best its been since 1984...
		
Click to expand...

Oh I am sure that unemployment is the best it's been since 1984 - good time to leave the EU then.

And there are no links because it is in the future and we must wait for the promises of the _Leave _campaign to bear fruit - as immigration from the EU27 is slashed to 10s of thousands and to meet the expectations of many who voted to Leave - expectations that were set during the lead up to the referendum and that still remain.  

Those same unemployed voters that I hear complain there is no work for them because of the Eastern Europeans (those who will no longer be taking all the jobs) - and taking the jobs at unrealistically low rates of pay that UK workers cannot afford to be employed on. And all will be well when the EU27 workers leave and jobs become available at higher rates of pay...or something like that.

I don't make this stuff up you know.  It was the Leave campaigners who did and many voters believed them.

An exchange I heard - some lad complaining about pressure on housing and local services (schools, GPs etc) following a company creating 4000 new jobs in his area.  His problem was that he reckoned most of the jobs were taken by non-UK nationals.  His relief from Brexit was that once the EU27 nationals were gone the pressure on local services would be relieved and all would be good. What would make them go and what would happen to the jobs they'd leave rather escaped him.

But it was what he was told would happen and so I do not blame him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			A few countries are looking at the idea of an universal payment to all every month to all to make up for the fact that there will be so few jobs around. Can't wait to see the outcry on golf forums when that one is introduced.... 

_"Dear Daily Mail, I find the new payments disgusting, I've worked all my life for thrupence a week licking the roads clean and now people are getting paid for doing nowt apart from sitting around all day talking to their robot dog." _

Click to expand...

That'll be the Universal Basic Income - yup - that'll go down well.


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## Twire (May 10, 2018)

Can we stop turning every thread into Brexit please.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't make this stuff up you know.  It was the Leave campaigners who did and many voters believed them.
.
		
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And was George Osbourne and David Cameron campaigners for Leave?

Remind me of the meltdown the UK economy was supposed to suffer IMMEDIATELY a Leave vote was registered. Remind me of the emergency budget that would happen, and the Â£4k+ loss everyone would suffer - even the Treasury said Osbourne was being a bit naughty with that one.

And this is why you get so much flak. Remain were equally guilty of lying but you only ever put one side of the case.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And was George Osbourne and David Cameron campaigners for Leave?

Remind me of the meltdown the UK economy was supposed to suffer IMMEDIATELY a Leave vote was registered. Remind me of the emergency budget that would happen, and the Â£4k+ loss everyone would suffer - even the Treasury said Osbourne was being a bit naughty with that one.

And this is why you get so much flak. Remain were equally guilty of lying but you only ever put one side of the case.
		
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I do not care about the flak.  Leave won - what Remain said does not now matter - what matters is what Leave promised.  

And you cannot LIE about a forecast - you can get a forecast or prediction wrong - which is what can absolutely be laid at the door of Osborne and Cameron (with whom I have no truck).   Leave LIED about known facts and aspects of the way the EU worked that would make some of the leave promises completely unachievable - as we are finding out day-by-day with such as the Customs Union and NI/EU border.

Everything in the economy will be impacted by Brexit.  That is why it infects every discussion.  I wish it didn't.


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## Twire (May 10, 2018)

Well that request fell on deaf ears.

All references to Brexit on this thread after this post will be deleted, and infractions issued.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			A few countries are looking at the idea of an universal payment to all every month to all to make up for the fact that there will be so few jobs around. Can't wait to see the outcry on golf forums when that one is introduced.... 

_"Dear Daily Mail, I find the new payments disgusting, I've worked all my life for thrupence a week licking the roads clean and now people are getting paid for doing nowt apart from sitting around all day talking to their robot dog." _

Click to expand...

Whilst the idea today seems mental I can see a day where it will be needed with automation taking over a lot of jobs leaving more mouths to feed than jobs available


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst the idea today seems mental I can see a day where it will be needed with automation taking over a lot of jobs leaving more mouths to feed than jobs available
		
Click to expand...

Trials are already happening.  http://www.wired.co.uk/article/finland-universal-basic-income-results-trial-cancelled 

Both in countries that are were never in the EU, are still in the EU and those that may be leaving.  Not that that makes a difference. No way does that matter.  These trials have nothing to do with membership of the EU. Anyone can do them. To avoid a infraction I just want to make that clear.


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## User62651 (May 10, 2018)

Few of the older generation have been making comments about younger people having foreign holidays and buying stuff instead of saving for a deposit for a house, being extravagant in effect in their view. Thought it worth mentioning that a foreign holiday to resorts in Spain (Tenerife/Majorca etc) for example is arguably a good bit cheaper than a holiday of the same duration in the UK (which the older generation took back in the day before cheap foreign package hols took off). 
Also white goods and furniture are relatively cheap nowadays, wasn't the case back in the day when tvs, cookers, washing machines were a much bigger investment relative to income I believe. Throwaway culture now as things are so cheap.
An awful lot of my parents generation have 3 or 4 foreign holidays a year, good pensions too. My father in law retired at 52 in 1994 with half his leaving salary paid on a monthly basis as a pension for life, that's on top of any state pension he gets now. I could only dream of that.


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## chrisd (May 10, 2018)

Twire said:



			Well that request fell on deaf ears.

All references to Brexit on this thread after this post will be deleted, and infractions issued.
		
Click to expand...

Thank goodness ............... not God cos he doesn't exist!


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Few of the older generation have been making comments about younger people having foreign holidays and buying stuff instead of saving for a deposit for a house, being extravagant in effect in their view. Thought it worth mentioning that a foreign holiday to resorts in Spain (Tenerife/Majorca etc) for example is arguably a good bit cheaper than a holiday of the same duration in the UK (which the older generation took back in the day before cheap foreign package hols took off). 
Also white goods and furniture are relatively cheap nowadays, wasn't the case back in the day when tvs, cookers, washing machines were a much bigger investment relative to income I believe. Throwaway culture now as things are so cheap.
An awful lot of my parents generation have 3 or 4 foreign holidays a year, good pensions too. My father in law retired at 52 in 1994 with half his leaving salary paid on a monthly basis as a pension for life, that's on top of any state pension he gets now. I could only dream of that.
		
Click to expand...


Some very good points here!

Trips abroad are almost as cheap if not cheaper than trips around the uk. The other side of the argument could be to not holiday full stop until house owning

White goods you again spot on so cheap now days compared 

Holiday example for next summer I want the 3 of us to go away.. week in Spain would be about 2k all inclusive.. week in centre Parcs 2k no food, week in haven 1k ish again no food 

Itâ€™s almost stupid to consider the uk! 2k all in no extras for drinks or food and decent weather almost Guaranteed


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## bobmac (May 10, 2018)

How much does the latest iphone cost per month?


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			How much does the latest iphone cost per month?
		
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A lot if you are talking an Iphone X.  But I am not sure how many people young people saving up to buy houses have Iphone Xs. 

And actually that is not relevant to their challenges as I am sure your next point will be '_they don't need them_'.  Where as actually a hell of a lot of young people base their lives around their phones nowadays, so it as an essential part of their lifestyle as say a car is to older folk.  An increasing amount of young people do not own cars https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/01/...s-for-drop-in-car-ownership-among-young-peop/ . So the money they save on not buying a car they can spend on a smart phone.


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## bobmac (May 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			A lot if you are talking an Iphone X.  But I am not sure how many people young people saving up to buy houses have Iphone Xs. 

And actually that is not relevant as I am sure *your next point will be 'they don't need them'*.  Where as actually a hell of a lot of young people base their lives around their phones nowadays, so it as an essential part of their lifestyle as say a car is to older folk.  An increasing amount of young people do not own cars as they see them as a waste of money. So the money they save on not buying a car they can spend on a smart phone.
		
Click to expand...

Wrong

My smart phone is Â£7.50 per month and does everything an iphone does.


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## Mudball (May 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			A lot if you are talking an Iphone X.  *But I am not sure how many people young people saving up to buy houses have Iphone Xs*. 

And actually that is not relevant to their challenges as I am sure your next point will be '_they don't need them_'.  Where as actually a hell of a lot of young people base their lives around their phones nowadays, so it as an essential part of their lifestyle as say a car is to older folk.  An increasing amount of young people do not own cars https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/01/...s-for-drop-in-car-ownership-among-young-peop/ . So the money they save on not buying a car they can spend on a smart phone.
		
Click to expand...


I have 2 examples of this
1) one of the young one just got a rose X.. she paid the money upfront.. her reasoning she does not spend it on clothes, housing etc.. so this was a good idea 
2) One of neighbour's son (in this early 30s) just got a new shiny BMW.. Was speaking to him and his very valid argument was .. he will never be able to afford a house and he works for the council, so he may as well as splash the cash and have a good life.  He is waiting to get the house as inheritance and then move on.  I must say... i dont blame him.  With the avg house price in the area starting  to kiss 7 digits, his parents had to the foresight to buy in a good place about 50 years ago. Council pay will never get him there.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Wrong

My smart phone is Â£7.50 per month and does everything an iphone does.
		
Click to expand...

There is so much wrong with this statement where to begin ..

It does the basics fine yes but itâ€™s like owning a Mac. If your in certain fields a mac will be much better for you than a pc at half the cost because of how it works

You donâ€™t need the latest iPhone infact you can get an iPhone se for Â£25 a month with decent minutes txts and data 

Iâ€™ve had a 6s for 3 years now and on a sim only deal for Â£16.50 a month which covers 12gb data, enough calls and txts.. for Â£7.50 I would expect the data to be very low and of no use to anyone under the age of 35 for what you can do on them now

Our manager at work runs the entire coverage for the room (365 days a year 24/7) via whatsapp any coverage issues sent out on WhatsApp and replied fast to stop the room closing

All my golf societies are run via WhatsApp 

Data is king


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## jim8flog (May 10, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But all your problems can be easily solved by joining an equity release scheme, and you could also benefit when it becomes the next PPI scandal. &#62541;

And you get a free pen &#62541;&#62541;
		
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with equity release other than those who do not read/ fully understand all the terms and conditions. Great deal for mine lifetime 4% interest rate.
My choice -pay the interest (actually it's a repayment of loan capital) or do not pay the interest.


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## Hacker Khan (May 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Wrong

My smart phone is Â£7.50 per month and does everything an iphone does.
		
Click to expand...

You're wasted on here, you should be writing for Wired, Stuff or T3 with that level of insight into modern technology in society today.


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## bobmac (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			There is so much wrong with this statement where to begin ..

It does the basics fine yes but itâ€™s like owning a Mac. If your in certain fields a mac will be much better for you than a pc at half the cost because of how it works

You donâ€™t need the latest iPhone infact you can get an iPhone se for Â£25 a month with decent minutes txts and data 

Iâ€™ve had a 6s for 3 years now and on a sim only deal for Â£16.50 a month which covers 12gb data, enough calls and txts.. for Â£7.50 I would expect the data to be very low and of no use to anyone under the age of 35 for what you can do on them now

Our manager at work runs the entire coverage for the room (365 days a year 24/7) via whatsapp any coverage issues sent out on WhatsApp and replied fast to stop the room closing

All my golf societies are run via WhatsApp 

Data is king
		
Click to expand...

There is so much wrong with this reply in relation to the OP I'm not even going to begin 

I'm out


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			There is so much wrong with this reply in relation to the OP I'm not even going to begin 

I'm out
		
Click to expand...

Just shows the level of understanding between generations for me.. scratch the surface a little about why people buy the â€œlatestâ€ or up to date tech to actually improve their lifeâ€™s or job and suddenly your out 

Funny that


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## MegaSteve (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Just shows the level of understanding between generations for me.. scratch the surface a little about why people buy the â€œlatestâ€ or up to date tech to actually improve their lifeâ€™s or job and suddenly your out 

Funny that
		
Click to expand...

Well... If latest tech is required, for work, the employers should be supplying it...

And, 'up to date tech' comes well behind food in the larder, threads to be worn and tiles over the head...

2K holidays... All inclusive or not... Just as much fun to be had for Â£9.50 with the sun...


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## fundy (May 10, 2018)

since when did you need an iphone and 12gb of data to run whatsapp????

apologies im another oldie who doesnt get it


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Well... If latest tech is required, for work, the employers should be supplying it...

And, 'up to date tech' comes well behind food in the larder, threads to be worn and tiles over the head...

2K holidays... All inclusive or not... Just as much fun to be had for Â£9.50 with the sun...
		
Click to expand...

On one of them now got my wallet nicked been a bundle of laughs


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

fundy said:



			since when did you need an iphone and 12gb of data to run whatsapp????

apologies im another oldie who doesnt get it
		
Click to expand...

Was giving one example of how modern tech can be vital 

Doesnâ€™t have to be a complete splash the cash or a complete blow the lot

Some live happily in the middle


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## fundy (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Was giving one example of how modern tech can be vital 

Doesnâ€™t have to be a complete splash the cash or a complete blow the lot

Some live happily in the middle
		
Click to expand...

that would be me  happily in the middle tech wise


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Just shows the level of understanding between generations for me.. scratch the surface a little about why people buy the â€œlatestâ€ or up to date tech to actually improve their lifeâ€™s or job and suddenly your out 

Funny that
		
Click to expand...

There was a term coined back in the late 50's/early 60's called planned obsolescence. Apple have made it an art form, even to the extent of deliberately slowing the older generation phones. Basically, people believe the newest model is essential, perhaps, not realising that the previous model will do 90% of what the new version will. And the previous version to that will do 80%.

Then there's what aspects of those devices do we all actually use? Some people, young and old, will use pretty much every tool available.

You've only got to look at the marketing and releases of new drivers/irons to see what planned obsolescence is all about and how we all fall for some aspects of it in areas of our lives.

Me? I'm a coffin dodger trying desperately to avoid all this new tech. Why? Because, truthfully, I just don't need it. I don't need to look at FB or WhatsApp every 5 mins. Hell, I rarely even take the smart phone out of the drawer. The laptop gets a lot of hammer because I rarely watch TV, but I'm just as happy to get a book out.

But did I ever need all that high tech stuff? Hell yes! Uk project manager for the introduction of a new software platform for our engineers, and on-call supporting it for 2 years.

The one thing it taught me was make sure you switch the damn thing off, and make time for proper interactions with people. Great tools but don't let them run your life - they're not essential to living. Strangely enough though, food and a house are.

Mazlow's hierarchy of needs sums it up.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			There was a term coined back in the late 50's/early 60's called planned obsolescence. Apple have made it an art form, even to the extent of deliberately slowing the older generation phones. Basically, people believe the newest model is essential, perhaps, not realising that the previous model will do 90% of what the new version will. And the previous version to that will do 80%.

Then there's what aspects of those devices do we all actually use? Some people, young and old, will use pretty much every tool available.

You've only got to look at the marketing and releases of new drivers/irons to see what planned obsolescence is all about and how we all fall for some aspects of it in areas of our lives.

Me? I'm a coffin dodger trying desperately to avoid all this new tech. Why? Because, truthfully, I just don't need it. I don't need to look at FB or WhatsApp every 5 mins. Hell, I rarely even take the smart phone out of the drawer. The laptop gets a lot of hammer because I rarely watch TV, but I'm just as happy to get a book out.

But did I ever need all that high tech stuff? Hell yes! Uk project manager for the introduction of a new software platform for our engineers, and on-call supporting it for 2 years.

The one thing it taught me was make sure you switch the damn thing off, and make time for proper interactions with people. Great tools but don't let them run your life - they're not essential to living. Strangely enough though, food and a house are.

Mazlow's hierarchy of needs sums it up.
		
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Life changes though.. jobs change.. until 5 years ago the northern line was run on 1960s tech with signals , program machines which if they broke parts were bought on eBay they were that outdated. A timetable and a radio was all you had to run the system 

Now there are no signals physically, up to 90 trains per hour in the peak. Can hold a train at a click of a mouse, can Emergancy break a train with 2 clicks. All kinds of advances. We wonder how we ever coped before but we did

Life evolves, and if you stand still for too long it will pass you 

My aunt (in her 70s) once said to my uncle we need to get a computer because (her words) how her generation looked at people who couldnâ€™t read or write that will be how you will be looked at if you canâ€™t use a computer. She know owns and uses an iPad aswell. 

There are so many advantages of tech they outweigh the disadvantages 

Back on the topic part.. people shouldnâ€™t be judged on what they spend their money on. End of the day itâ€™s theirs 

I lived at home until 27 all my mates said I should move out because I could. I decided to stay home because I wanted enough to move into a 3 bed semi with room for a loft extension.. because I canâ€™t stand moving .. so thatâ€™s what I did


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## Papas1982 (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Life changes though.. jobs change.. until 5 years ago the northern line was run on 1960s tech with signals , program machines which if they broke parts were bought on eBay they were that outdated. A timetable and a radio was all you had to run the system 

Now there are no signals physically, up to 90 trains per hour in the peak. Can hold a train at a click of a mouse, can Emergancy break a train with 2 clicks. All kinds of advances. We wonder how we ever coped before but we did

Life evolves, and if you stand still for too long it will pass you 

My aunt (in her 70s) once said to my uncle we need to get a computer because (her words) how her generation looked at people who couldnâ€™t read or write that will be how you will be looked at if you canâ€™t use a computer. She know owns and uses an iPad aswell. 

There are so many advantages of tech they outweigh the disadvantages 

*Back on the topic part.. people shouldnâ€™t be judged on what they spend their money on. End of the day itâ€™s theirs *

I lived at home until 27 all my mates said I should move out because I could. I decided to stay home because I wanted enough to move into a 3 bed semi with room for a loft extension.. because I canâ€™t stand moving .. so thatâ€™s what I did
		
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Surely that includes all the old people who could be taxed again on their pensions?


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## Bunkermagnet (May 10, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Surely that includes all the old people who could be taxed again on their pensions?
		
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But in all likelyhood you/we are already taxed again on your pensions when you get them, if it's above the allowance limit. So you're taxed when you earn it, then taxed again when you get it back after (hopefully) earning a little something on top of it.
 Ultimately nothing has changed, it's just a way think tanks amd politicians like to act so we all think they are working in someones best interest and how lucky we might be.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Life changes though.. jobs change.. until 5 years ago the northern line was run on 1960s tech with signals , program machines which if they broke parts were bought on eBay they were that outdated. A timetable and a radio was all you had to run the system 

Now there are no signals physically, up to 90 trains per hour in the peak. Can hold a train at a click of a mouse, can Emergancy break a train with 2 clicks. All kinds of advances. We wonder how we ever coped before but we did

Life evolves, and if you stand still for too long it will pass you 

My aunt (in her 70s) once said to my uncle we need to get a computer because (her words) how her generation looked at people who couldnâ€™t read or write that will be how you will be looked at if you canâ€™t use a computer. She know owns and uses an iPad aswell. 

There are so many advantages of tech they outweigh the disadvantages 

*Back on the topic part.. people shouldnâ€™t be judged on what they spend their money on. End of the day itâ€™s theirs *

I lived at home until 27 all my mates said I should move out because I could. I decided to stay home because I wanted enough to move into a 3 bed semi with room for a loft extension.. because I canâ€™t stand moving .. so thatâ€™s what I did
		
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Can't disagree with any of that. A portion of what I spent my money on was the provision of a pension. Having Gordon Brown take a big chunk of it was painful. For a suggestion that I now need to be taxed further, having done the financial planning to receive a specific amount isn't funny.

The other aspects of the wider discussion, i.e. the affordability of housing; why is that my problem? Tax me more for the NHS? Yes.


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## ColchesterFC (May 10, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Back on the topic part.. *people shouldnâ€™t be judged on what they spend their money on.* End of the day itâ€™s theirs
		
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They should if they are moaning that they can't afford a house when they are spending hundreds/thousands each year on phone contracts/going out/holidays. Â£60 per month on a phone is Â£720 per year. A couple of foreign holidays per year can easily be Â£3000 in total. Â£50 a week going out is Â£2600 per year. Add those up and you've got over Â£6000 without cutting out anything else. If that's what people want to spend their money on then I've got no problem with it, unless they then start whining that it's impossible to save for a deposit to buy a house. It's about priorities and if the phone/holiday/night out is more important then obviously there isn't going to be as much money for them to buy a house.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			They should if they are moaning that they can't afford a house when they are spending hundreds/thousands each year on phone contracts/going out/holidays. Â£60 per month on a phone is Â£720 per year. A couple of foreign holidays per year can easily be Â£3000 in total. Â£50 a week going out is Â£2600 per year. Add those up and you've got over Â£6000 without cutting out anything else. If that's what people want to spend their money on then I've got no problem with it, unless they then start whining that it's impossible to save for a deposit to buy a house. It's about priorities and if the phone/holiday/night out is more important then obviously there isn't going to be as much money for them to buy a house.
		
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I personally think renting should stop being so looked down upon by people. Many of my mates will never afford a mortgage but refuse to rent because there lining someoneâ€™s pocket .. how about the fact your making it on your own better that than never move out

Hobbit itâ€™s depressing. I know full well my final salary pension will no way be final salary when I come to retire (at 60 Iâ€™m currently 31) so topping it up with avcs just to give me a big more incase .. or if by some miracle itâ€™s fine happy days Â£Â£Â£


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## IanM (May 10, 2018)

Many countries giggle at our love of owner-occupation .......


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			.

Mazlow's hierarchy of needs sums it up.
		
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Yes that explains how we need to progressively move through levels that are satisfiers to allow us to reach  higher levels of contentment.   I remember it when studying Management at the OU.   Another one that comes to mind when reflecting on this debate is 'Victor Vroom's  Expectancy Theory'   Where we need to have in place processes that an individual undergoes to make choices that motivate them to achieve their desired goals.


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## Hacker Khan (May 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes that explains how we need to progressively move through levels that are satisfiers to allow us to reach  higher levels of contentment.   I remember it when studying Management at the OU.   Another one that comes to mind when reflecting on this debate is 'Victor Vroom's  Expectancy Theory'   Where we need to have in place processes that an individual undergoes to make choices that motivate them to achieve their desired goals.
		
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His model, whilst not been debunked, is now seen as simplistic and missing an important element which is the social connections.  Even he later said that the model should not really be seen as a hierarchical pyramid structure and you do not need to completely fulfil one level to move to the other. Recent research on how the brain works is showing peoples needs are not really hierarchical but are interconnected.  

His model kind of worked in a individualistic societies and in the workplace where there is a very defined manager/subordinate relationship where the manager mostly controls what their staff do. But in modern workplaces that is happening less and less and younger people today are using social connections (and social media is playing a big part in this) as a way of meeting their specific needs.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Surely that includes all the old people who could be taxed again on their pensions?
		
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My state pension takes most of my tax allowance, my own pension will be taxed as I draw it!


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## Slab (May 11, 2018)

IanM said:



			Many countries giggle at our love of owner-occupation .......
		
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Yup and because of the fascination with it the UK lacks a effective rental market


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			His model, whilst not been debunked, is now seen as simplistic and missing an important element which is the social connections.  Even he later said that the model should not really be seen as a hierarchical pyramid structure and you do not need to completely fulfil one level to move to the other. Recent research on how the brain works is showing peoples needs are not really hierarchical but are interconnected.  

His model kind of worked in a individualistic societies and in the workplace where there is a very defined manager/subordinate relationship where the manager mostly controls what their staff do. But in modern workplaces that is happening less and less and younger people today are using social connections (and social media is playing a big part in this) as a way of meeting their specific needs.
		
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No such theory will be perfect in every case as people are not created the same.  The point is that to reach certain levels of self  satisfaction it is necessary to have other conditions in place.  You are not going to be motivated to improve your self actuisation for example if you are homeless or starving.   These theories are used as tools to allow Managers understand what may motivate their staff and conversely why they may not be motivated.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2018)

chrisd said:



			My state pension takes most of my tax allowance, my own pension will be taxed as I draw it!
		
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The standard state pension is around Â£6K a year, not exactly a beanfeast.  The current tax free allowance is around Â£11K and this is always offset initially against state pension.


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## jim8flog (May 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The standard state pension is around Â£6K a year, not exactly a beanfeast.  The current tax free allowance is around Â£11K and this is always offset initially against state pension.
		
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Current State Basic Pension is currently over Â£8.5K and this gets uprated depending upon personal circumstances. Mine uses up nearly all of my personal tax allowance


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## jim8flog (May 11, 2018)

Thee was an interesting article on the news this morning which points out the plight of middle to later age private renters. They might be able to afford the rent whilst they are still working but will never be able to afford it when the stop working and live on a basic pension.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2018)

I recently found out that you can offset your spouses pension against your own if you are a higher tax payer.

Married couples tax allowance introduced by Cameron in 2015...â€¦â€¦.I got about Â£500 back dated and it now saves me about Â£280 a year.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Current State Basic Pension is currently over Â£8.5K and this gets uprated depending upon personal circumstances. Mine uses up nearly all of my personal tax allowance
		
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My wife and I get close to Â£19k between us under the new universal benefit scheme.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Current State Basic Pension is currently over Â£8,5K and this gets uprated depending upon personal circumstances. Mine uses up nearly all of my personal tax allowance
		
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Current state pension is Â£125.95 per week. Don't know where you get Â£8.5K from.  You can get more if you qualify for secondary pension but thats not the basic pension.  You can also get more if you qualify for the new State Pension but most current pensioners don't get that.


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## chrisd (May 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Current state pension is Â£125.95 per week. Don't know where you get Â£8.5K from.  You can get more if you qualify for secondary pension but thats not the basic pension.  You can also get more if you qualify for the new State Pension but most current pensioners don't get that.
		
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We both qualify for the new state pension and it's worth Â£174 a week to me, we can't claim any other benefits because it's the new universal scheme but then I wouldn't get any others anyway.


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## pauljames87 (May 12, 2018)

Have to admit I was shocked when I was younger and found out pensioners even paid tax considering they had paid tax all their lifeâ€™s 

However now Iâ€™m older can see it would be unsustainable to stop taxing them

Did find out something nice last night tho , the wife got her days for part time back from her school following her maternity leave and we have the days we wanted. She will pay Â£15 a month income tax as she dropping 2 days so whilst she doesnâ€™t take home as much itâ€™s not as bad as it could have been because of the old tax free. She gets her 2 days at home with little one aswell


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## pauljames87 (May 12, 2018)

Read just now that 100% mortgages are making a return

If they are strict with them and donâ€™t get stupid again this could help people a lot more than 10k and tax the pensioners more 

However letâ€™s be honest itâ€™s the banks it wonâ€™t be done properly


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## PhilTheFragger (May 12, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Read just now that 100% mortgages are making a return

If they are strict with them and donâ€™t get stupid again this could help people a lot more than 10k and tax the pensioners more 

However letâ€™s be honest itâ€™s the banks it wonâ€™t be done properly
		
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100% mortgages are fine unless

1 they want to move house within 5 years
2 house prices stop rising
3 interest rates increase

Any of the above could result in negative equity, but as long as the repayments are met there isnâ€™t a long term problem.

Problem comes if they split and there is negative equity, Iâ€™ve seen people persued well after the house has been sold and it isnâ€™t pretty


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## jim8flog (May 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Current state pension is Â£125.95 per week. Don't know where you get Â£8.5K from.  You can get more if you qualify for secondary pension but thats not the basic pension.  You can also get more if you qualify for the new State Pension but most current pensioners don't get that.
		
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From the UK.gov pension website

What you'll get         The full new State Pension is Â£164.35 per week.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			From the UK.gov pension website

What you'll get         The full new State Pension is Â£164.35 per week.
		
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Thats for new pensioners.  The majority of pensioners are on the old  state pension which is less, we now have a two teer pension system whereby people that may have qualified for more years and paid in more get a lower state pension if the started it before the new state pension kicked in.  It's unfair IMO.

This link is to the Government Web Site and explains the basic state pension of Â£125.95 per week.

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension


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