# Simon Dyson hearing



## shivas irons (Nov 28, 2013)

According to this article Dysons hearing is due to take place on December the 5th http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/2013/simon_dyson_hearing.html be interesting to see which way it goes and apparently the hearing is to be recorded and put up on the European tours website.I was talking to a pro a few weeks back who had met and played with Dyson and said he was a really decent guy and insisted theres no way he would have done anything untoward on purpose.Interesting in the article they say they have more that one allegation against him,hope it works out ok for the fella.


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## Dave3498 (Nov 28, 2013)

What is he alleged to have done?


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## john0 (Nov 28, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			What is he alleged to have done?
		
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Touched a bit of grass with his golf ball


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## guest100718 (Nov 28, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			What is he alleged to have done?
		
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Cheating apparently.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 28, 2013)

He pressed down a spike mark on the line of his putt.


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## matt611 (Nov 28, 2013)

I appreciate that rules are rules, but this seems ridiculous to me.  I don't see anything wrong with it, we fix pitch marks so why not a mark caused by someone carelessly dragging their foot on the green.  Or have i missed the point?


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## stevie_r (Nov 28, 2013)

Personally I think he has received sufficient sanction through the application of the rules. No need to drag this on.


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## NWJocko (Nov 28, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Personally I think he has received sufficient sanction through the application of the rules. No need to drag this on.
		
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This is what I don't understand about the whole thing (admittedly haven't looked too hard).

Why, when he's already been DQ'd does he have to have a hearing?  Does this happen in all cases where someone is DQ'd?

Or, has he been pulled up for this kind of thing before?


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## In_The_Rough (Nov 28, 2013)

Seems strange they have more than 1 allegation against him. Seems to be a bit of a witch hunt to me. Think he may well get a heavy punishment here.


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## JCW (Nov 28, 2013)

He is a hyped up type of guy ,  I followed him at wentworth  and he is a very quick player , the incident where he tap down a spike mark was just after he missed the putt , I think he just pick his ball and tap down a spike mark and walked away thinking how did I missed that  and maybe now I need more birdies to be in a position to challenge or he knew he made a mistake and said nothink knowing there are loads of cameras around and many a keen eye watching and he thought he would get away with it , don't think so do you , me I think he made an honest mistake and 1st he knew about was when he was pulled up ...................that's my take on it and I hope he gets a warning and moves on ........................EYG


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

Apparently some players have come forward with some accusations of previous incidents ?


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## Birchy (Nov 28, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			This is what I don't understand about the whole thing (admittedly haven't looked too hard).

Why, when he's already been DQ'd does he have to have a hearing?  Does this happen in all cases where someone is DQ'd?

Or, has he been pulled up for this kind of thing before?
		
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Apparently in the rule book it says if you break the rules and get DQ then its an automatic hearing and witch hunt.

(Exception 3.1 Tiger if your reading this, skip to chapter 12)


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## NWJocko (Nov 28, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Apparently in the rule book it says if you break the rules and get DQ then its an automatic hearing and witch hunt.

(Exception 3.1 Tiger if your reading this, skip to chapter 12)
		
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Quality 

I remember Harrington was DQ'd a couple of years ago for a ball moving (?) but there was nothing like this afterwards.  Or if there was a hearing then it wasn't made public.

If an armchair ref spots something with Tiger they just invite him for a drink and agree a new rule between them.......


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## stevie_r (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Apparently some players have come forward with some accusations of previous incidents ?
		
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Then that could obviously put a different slant on matters.


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2013)

Although he's never been DQ'd before.

Does seem a bit OTT......


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## NWJocko (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Apparently some players have come forward with some accusations of previous incidents ?
		
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Did they raise them at the time?

Stinks if they didn't.  They're as bad as any (potential) cheat if they've kept it to themselves until now.

From the outside (with little knowledge of the facts) it seems like he's being hung out to dry........


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

Of course no one raised them at the time but now is a chance to stab a guy in the back.


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## In_The_Rough (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course no one raised them at the time but now is a chance to stab a guy in the back.
		
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Seems that way. Perhaps a chance to settle some old scores. I fear for him if some players have made allegations as well. Could well be heading for a lengthy ban


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## JezzE (Nov 28, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			From the outside (with little knowledge of the facts) it seems like he's being hung out to dry........
		
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Perhaps we'll find out more 'facts' in the hearing, before which it's a little hard to make a call one way or the other on this


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## Big D 88 (Nov 28, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Seems that way. Perhaps a chance to settle some old scores. I fear for him if some players have made allegations as well. Could well be heading for a lengthy ban
		
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Surely the allegations have to be backed up by concrete evidence

and why bring it up now? stinks of players jumping on the bandwagon imo


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Seems that way. Perhaps a chance to settle some old scores. I fear for him if some players have made allegations as well. Could well be heading for a lengthy ban
		
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I fear a ban as well - pretty shocking it's got this far when you consider the amount of people that have broken the rules during play and it's dealt with on the day ( some getting away with it as well cough Woods cough )


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## NWJocko (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			Perhaps we'll find out more 'facts' in the hearing, before which it's a little hard to make a call one way or the other on this
		
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Even the fact it's got this far seems a little odd though don't you think?

There are a number of DQ's in recent years for (ultimately) signing a wrong score based on ball moving etc.

Why is it deemed necessary to have a hearing for this one?


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## In_The_Rough (Nov 28, 2013)

Big D 88 said:



			Surely the allegations have to be backed up by concrete evidence

and why bring it up now? stinks of players jumping on the bandwagon imo
		
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Cannot disagree really but if witnesses come forward saying he has done this and that then the majority are normally the ones that are believed, just like a court case really


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## JCW (Nov 28, 2013)

QUOTE=NWJocko;948861]Quality 

I remember Harrington was DQ'd a couple of years ago for a ball moving (?) but there was nothing like this afterwards.  Or if there was a hearing then it wasn't made public.

If an armchair ref spots something with Tiger they just invite him for a drink and agree a new rule between them....... [/QUOTE]


like         EYG


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## guest100718 (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I fear a ban as well - pretty shocking it's got this far when you consider the amount of people that have broken the rules during play and it's dealt with on the day ( some getting away with it as well cough Woods cough )
		
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I hit the wrong ball, thats breaking the rules, but it isnt cheating. He is being accused of cheating.


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## In_The_Rough (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I fear a ban as well - pretty shocking it's got this far when you consider the amount of people that have broken the rules during play and it's dealt with on the day ( some getting away with it as well cough Woods cough )
		
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I agree, it has been dragged on and I think there are a few issues that have not become common knowledge yet. Not getting into a long debate about Woods but he is still the games biggest draw so the authorities seem reluctant to do anything to him really. Same in any sport though not just golf money talks unfortunately


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## guest100718 (Nov 28, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			I agree, it has been dragged on and I think there are a few issues that have become common knowledge yet. Not getting into a long debate about Woods but he is still the games biggest draw so the authorities seem reluctant to do anything to him really. Same in any sport though not just golf money talks unfortunately
		
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Well the BMW incident looks pretty cut and dried. He marked his ball, picked it up and tapped down a spike mark with it. That doesnt make him a cheat, it could easily have been a forgetfull moment.  Is there more to this than meets the eye? It would seem so.


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## JezzE (Nov 28, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Even the fact it's got this far seems a little odd though don't you think?

There are a number of DQ's in recent years for (ultimately) signing a wrong score based on ball moving etc.

Why is it deemed necessary to have a hearing for this one?
		
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This one's a little different in that it's a clear infraction of a specific rule that you would hope a seasoned tour pro would not make, whatever the reason for him doing it (absent-mindedness or whatever).

The other rules to which you refer are more a case of a player not seeing something that has subsequently come to light via HDTV and slo-mo replays.

I've no idea what the outcome will be, what Dyson's 'history' is if anything, why they feel the need to enforce a hearing, but hopefully once it's been and gone we will all know a little more.

But, as I say, this incident is very different to the 'moving ball' ones...


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			This one's a little different in that it's a clear infraction of a specific rule that you would hope a seasoned tour pro would not make, whatever the reason for him doing it (absent-mindedness or whatever).

The other rules to which you refer are more a case of a player not seeing something that has subsequently come to light via HDTV and slo-mo replays.

I've no idea what the outcome will be, what Dyson's 'history' is if anything, why they feel the need to enforce a hearing, but hopefully once it's been and gone we will all know a little more.

But, as I say, this incident is very different to the 'moving ball' ones...
		
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Agreed, but there are also dq's for other "offences" such as incorrect drops,so you sign for a wrong score, where a Seasoned Pro should know the procedure - or not as the case may be but you get the picture...


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## JezzE (Nov 28, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Agreed, but there are also dq's for other "offences" such as incorrect drops,so you sign for a wrong score, where a Seasoned Pro should know the procedure - or not as the case may be but you get the picture...
		
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Accepted, but even then I think there is still a subtle difference between what he did and dropping in a wrong place...


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			Accepted, but even then I think there is still a subtle difference between what he did and dropping in a wrong place...
		
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I'm not sure because I think dropping in the wrong place gains an even bigger advantage and is possible worse than tapping down a spike mark ( something I believe should be allowed )


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			Accepted, but even then I think there is still a subtle difference between what he did and dropping in a wrong place...
		
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Kind of...
But SD was almost certainly doing as was said above, too busy giving himself a telling off and thinking about having to birdie the next hole to actually realise what he was doing. I can't believe that he would have done it deliberately - ie cheating.
Every Pro should know the drop procedure almost without thinking shouldn't they..?

And at the end of the day, the "crime" is the same -  a breach of the rules and the appropriate penalty applied.

The only reason I can see that SD is being hauled in front of the Tour Committee is that they think he did cheat - no other answer.


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## JezzE (Nov 28, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Kind of...
But SD was almost certainly doing as was said above, too busy giving himself a telling off and thinking about having to birdie the next hole to actually realise what he was doing. I can't believe that he would have done it deliberately - ie cheating.
Every Pro should know the drop procedure almost without thinking shouldn't they..?

And at the end of the day, the "crime" is the same -  a breach of the rules and the appropriate penalty applied.

The only reason I can see that SD is being hauled in front of the Tour Committee is that they think he did cheat - no other answer.
		
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Maybe, although I think the dropping rules and scenarios do become a bit more complex on tour for various reasons...


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## JezzE (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm not sure because I think dropping in the wrong place gains an even bigger advantage and is possible worse than tapping down a spike mark ( something I believe should be allowed )
		
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I was thinking more about intent than advantage gained... I would say it was much easier, even for a tour pro, to drop a ball in a wrong place through ignorance than to tap down a spike mark (whatever you think of that rule, and Dyson's reasons for doing so)


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			I was thinking more about intent than advantage gained... I would say it was much easier, even for a tour pro, to drop a ball in a wrong place through ignorance than to tap down a spike mark (whatever you think of that rule, and Dyson's reasons for doing so)
		
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Disagree - especially with the amount of rules officials they have on tour with them

If they are unsure they just ask - a lot do. 

I think Dyson was more about not thinking as opposed to ignorance of the rules


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## JezzE (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Disagree - especially with the amount of rules officials they have on tour with them

If they are unsure they just ask - a lot do. 

I think Dyson was more about not thinking as opposed to ignorance of the rules
		
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No as many rules officials as you might think at run-of-the-mill events...


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			No as many rules officials as you might think at run-of-the-mill events...
		
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But they are available to be called upon when needed on the European tour

Even more so at The Masters when Woods took his illegal drop


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## JezzE (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But they are available to be called upon when needed on the European tour

Even more so at The Masters when Woods took his illegal drop
		
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With you on that one - if there's been one incident this year that hasn't reflected particularly well on the game, then that was it.

Will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes to light during Dyson's hearing next week...


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			With you on that one - if there's been one incident this year that hasn't reflected particularly well on the game, then that was it.

Will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes to light during Dyson's hearing next week...
		
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I really hope he isn't made an example off or we find out that there are other incidents as he is a very nice guy ( played a round with him last year )


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## CheltenhamHacker (Nov 28, 2013)

One quick thing that is springing to mind...

If the other pro's have allegedly seen him allegedly breaking the rules, does that not make them just as allegedly guilty? 

Isn't it a rule that in Strokeplay, you can't actively ignore an FC's rule breaches?


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## shivas irons (Nov 28, 2013)

Ive a feeling also that the tour are going to make an example of Dyson and ban him, as has been said he's a quick player and its possible the errors are being make cos of this.As for Tiger at The Masters that was the day the honour of golf died.....


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## cookelad (Nov 28, 2013)

Does seem to have been blown out of proportion, making an assumption based on what Simon Dyson said at the time he's had a bit of a brain burp and has broken a rule (I agree with LiverpoolPhil that it's an unfair rule but anyway). Because of said rule break he's found himself DQ'ed from the tournament so lost his entrance & travel fees and any potential earnings, which being as high up the leaderboard as he was could have been quite substantial.

Hopefully the "hearing" will just be a case of Simon do you know what you did wrong? yes! Will you be doing it again? No! Ok see you on the 1st tee on Thursday.


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## Fish (Nov 28, 2013)

I wonder if the mark on the green in front of his ball was left from someone wearing adizero shoes


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2013)

Fish said:



			I wonder if the mark on the green in front of his ball was left from someone wearing adizero shoes 

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## CMAC (Nov 28, 2013)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			One quick thing that is springing to mind...

If the other pro's have allegedly seen him allegedly breaking the rules, does that not make them just as allegedly guilty? 

*Isn't it a rule that in Strokeplay, you can't actively ignore an FC's rule breaches?*

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I think the rule is you cant agree to break the rules! don't think theres any penalty for saying nothing, apart from morally wrong


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## CheltenhamHacker (Nov 28, 2013)

CMAC said:



			I think the rule is you cant agree to break the rules! don't think theres any penalty for saying nothing, apart from morally wrong
		
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Righto, that makes more sense! Could potentially argue by seeing a rule break, and not mentioning it, isn't that in itself "agreeing" to break the rules? It's semantics though, so lets not go down that route!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2013)

JezzE said:



			This one's a little different in that it's a clear infraction of a specific rule that you would hope a seasoned tour pro would not make, whatever the reason for him doing it (absent-mindedness or whatever).
The other rules to which you refer are more a case of a player not seeing something that has subsequently come to light via HDTV and slo-mo replays.
I've no idea what the outcome will be, what Dyson's 'history' is if anything, why they feel the need to enforce a hearing, but hopefully once it's been and gone we will all know a little more.

But, as I say, this incident is very different to the 'moving ball' ones...
		
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Thank you Jezz, smoke was starting to come out of my ears!!! I found some of the earlier comments quite scary.
I played as a Pro for 8 years and anyone who has played at a decent level, county team upwards, would NEVER make that kind of error without knowing that they are cheating.
The Pro's are a pretty tight bunch and generally know 'who is at it'.
I have met Simon and he is a decent guy but I suspect he will get a lengthy ban.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you Jezz, smoke was starting to come out of my ears!!! I found some of the earlier comments quite scary.
I played as a Pro for 8 years and anyone who has played at a decent level, county team upwards, would NEVER make that kind of error without knowing that they are cheating.
The Pro's are a pretty tight bunch and generally know 'who is at it'.
I have met Simon and he is a decent guy but I suspect he will get a lengthy ban.
		
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Never is quite a strong word - Dyson could have easily lost concentration and had a mind blank and not realised what he was doing - thats not trying to cheat thats making a mistake - humans make mistakes.


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## Dodger (Nov 28, 2013)

Jezz comes across as a man in the know.


Mmmmmmmm.:mmm:

Even if he isn't I have a feeling that things will come to light and he'll be a who will be damaged goods.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2013)

I definitely think that whatever the outcome Dyson will be viewed with a certain distrust by the media, fans and probably a number of fellow pros. Out of interest, has he got any playing rights for the PGA tour. Just wondering if it may be in his interest to being lesser light there for a while rather than trying to play in a media furore at every event.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2013)

Because he made a mistake ? I hope he carries on playing in Europe and ignores the media

People have done worse than him and haven't been treated like this


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2013)

In a situation like this I think it will be pretty tricky to prove that it wasn't a lapse of concentration.
With the Saltman case there were multiple instances of dodgy marking if I remember.
This is a one-off so unless SD come out and admits it, I can't see how they do more than warn him about it and maybe suspend any punishment until a further transgression.
Nobody saw it at the time, that much we know as it was down to a couple of armchair refs that this came to light.
If fellow Pros had suspicions about SD wouldn't they be keeping an eagle-eye on him..?


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## shivas irons (Nov 28, 2013)

Imurg said:



			In a situation like this I think it will be pretty tricky to prove that it wasn't a lapse of concentration.
With the Saltman case there were multiple instances of dodgy marking if I remember.
This is a one-off so unless SD come out and admits it, I can't see how they do more than warn him about it and maybe suspend any punishment until a further transgression.
Nobody saw it at the time, that much we know as it was down to a couple of armchair refs that this came to light.
If fellow Pros had suspicions about SD wouldn't they be keeping an eagle-eye on him..?
		
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Dodgy marking reminds me of a fella mentioned in "four iron in the soul", I believe he was a Scottish bloke who got a lifetime ban playing on the Euro tour for a ball marking infringement during qualifying for The Open, Donegan didnt mention any names but I believe referred to him as "the ballmark kid".I dont know if the fella had any other offence but a lifetime ban seemed harsh, apparently the guy had a lot of potential.


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## NWJocko (Nov 28, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you Jezz, smoke was starting to come out of my ears!!! I found some of the earlier comments quite scary.
I played as a Pro for 8 years and anyone who has played at a decent level, county team upwards, would NEVER make that kind of error without knowing that they are cheating.
The Pro's are a pretty tight bunch and generally know 'who is at it'.
I have met Simon and he is a decent guy but I suspect he will get a lengthy ban.
		
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Why scary?

There's Tigers drop incident etc. surely a breach of rules is a breach of rules no? Or is there an unwritten tier system?

I see your point, obviously I have never played to a level anywhere high enough to be as right as you all the time :ears:


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2013)

shivas irons said:



			Dodgy marking reminds me of a fella mentioned in "four iron in the soul", I believe he was a Scottish bloke who got a lifetime ban playing on the Euro tour for a ball marking infringement during qualifying for The Open, Donegan didnt mention any names but I believe referred to him as "the ballmark kid".I dont know if the fella had any other offence but a lifetime ban seemed harsh, apparently the guy had a lot of potential.
		
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I don't think that was his only offence he had been banned for a period before that one on another infringement.


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## garyinderry (Nov 28, 2013)

very harsh if he gets a lengthy ban.   I have witnessed a pro address a ball, it moves a few inches, he readdressed and hit it.   it was on the 18th hole with him well out of contention. 

he should have called a penalty on himself.  he didn't.  no ban for him.  I'm sure it happens more often than you would think.


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## tyke (Nov 28, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because he made a mistake ? I hope he carries on playing in Europe and ignores the media

People have done worse than him and haven't been treated like this
		
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Couldn't agree more, a genuine mistake, one of those brain not working moments.
Having seen him play for many years from a young junior to a tour pro he is a true gent and certainly NOT a cheat.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2013)

shivas irons said:



			Dodgy marking reminds me of a fella mentioned in "four iron in the soul", I believe he was a Scottish bloke who got a lifetime ban playing on the Euro tour for a ball marking infringement during qualifying for The Open, Donegan didnt mention any names but I believe referred to him as "the ballmark kid".I dont know if the fella had any other offence but a lifetime ban seemed harsh, apparently the guy had a lot of potential.
		
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David Robertson ex Scottish wizz kid from Dunbar, of my generation. Known locally as Jumping Beans.
Banned for 20 years.
They did not mess about with deliberate cheats in those days.


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## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2013)

CMAC said:



			I think the rule is you cant agree to break the rules! don't think theres any penalty for saying nothing, apart from morally wrong
		
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Nope - Cheltenhamhacker was correct

The responsibility for knowing the Rules lies with all players. In stroke play, the player and his marker have an explicit responsibility for the correctness of the player's score card.

There may, however, be exceptional individual cases where, in order to protect the interests of every other player in the competition, it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee.

In such exceptional circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 on a fellow-competitor or another competitor if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

You might want to look at decisions 1-3/6, 6-6a/5 and the above is from 33-7/9


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## NWJocko (Nov 28, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			David Robertson ex Scottish wizz kid from Dunbar, of my generation. Known locally as Jumping Beans.
Banned for 20 years.
They did not mess about with deliberate cheats in those days.
		
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You ever play with him DfT?

Must have been brutally obvious to get a nickname like that and a 20 year ban!

Never understood the shuffling marker thing, for the 1/4 inches someone shuffles the marker the advantage must be minimal.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 28, 2013)

It's a daft rule but a fundamental one that any semi-serious amateur knows all about. I don't believe for a minute that a pro can do that and not realise. The video was damning, he did it very quickly in the act of picking his ball up as if to disguise it and looked very shifty afterwards. Proves nothing, of course, but definitely worthy of further investigation.....


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2013)

I mentioned before that I read online the e-mail thread that was reportedly about a similar past incident for SD and that one seem to be dealt with to its conclusion with no action taken/required so I'm not sure if it could resurface to form part of allegations plural (in terms of incidents) or if allegations plural actually refers to a single incident allegation but from multiple sources 

Either way I wouldn't like to see a ban for this breach given that the rules already make provision for doing this and the applicable penalty (& then the subsequent incorrect score DQ)

Its really no different to taking stroke and distance penalty for an unplayable

If its a 2 shot penalty for touching line of putt and my FC does it on 9 greens that's a 18 shots head start to me and the field... as long as each is marked on the scorecard then crack on mate


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## JCW (Nov 29, 2013)

Whats the latest on this , anyone ?  .............EYG


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## jp5 (Nov 29, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's a daft rule but a fundamental one that any semi-serious amateur knows all about. I don't believe for a minute that a pro can do that and not realise. The video was damning, he did it very quickly in the act of picking his ball up as if to disguise it and looked very shifty afterwards. Proves nothing, of course, but definitely worthy of further investigation.....
		
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I think Dyson has an unfortunate demeanor in which he always looks shifty!


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## duncan mackie (Nov 29, 2013)

JCW said:



			Whats the latest on this , anyone ?  .............EYG
		
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the 'latest' will be on the 5th Dec as the first post in this thread set out


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## freddielong (Nov 29, 2013)

Absolutely crazy I think the reason he has been hauled before the board is there are numerous incidents


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## garyinderry (Nov 29, 2013)

JCW said:



			Whats the latest on this , anyone ?  .............EYG
		
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what does EYG mean?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			what does EYG mean?  

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Enjoy your golf


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## garyinderry (Nov 29, 2013)

really?   why the need to put that at the end of every post!     use you sig man


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## Matty (Nov 29, 2013)

I think the difference between SD and Tiget is the Tour involved.

SD is a member (currently at least) of the European Tour and is under investigation for a serious breach of the code of conduct for players.

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2013/tournamentid=2013084/news/newsid=210824.html

So, the way I understand that, it means the tour are basically going to look at everything again from the BMW Tournament and see whether they think he has been sufficiently punished. It will probably come down to an assessment of whether he knew what he was doing and acted with intent or just made a silly mistake.

Tiger is a member of a different tour so probably under a different code that maybe doesn't include retrospective analysis of serious incidents.

I think it's a credit to the European Tour that they have this available to them but it's a shame it has dragged on for what feels like such a long time. (But in fact it's really only 5 weeks!)


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2013)

Tiger is a tiger and the organisers of the masters used a loop hole to keep him to ensure the viewing figures were still high

Can say with confidence that the same would have happened regardless of which tour tiger is on


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## JCW (Nov 29, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Enjoy your golf
		
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Thanks


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## JCW (Nov 29, 2013)

Something I have always done when I post on HDIDO forum , no other reason really ...............EYG


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## bluewolf (Nov 29, 2013)

freddielong said:



			Absolutely crazy I think the reason he has been hauled before the board is there are numerous incidents
		
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Incidents? Has he been disciplined before regarding rule breaking? If not, then how can previous incidents be brought up? If complaints had been made previously then they should have been investigated and a conclusion reached. If they have not been investigated then how can they be brought up now? Something stinks in this and I'm curious as to the specifics of the case. I suspect that there is more involved than we are aware of...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			You ever play with him DfT?

Must have been brutally obvious to get a nickname like that and a 20 year ban!

Never understood the shuffling marker thing, for the 1/4 inches someone shuffles the marker the advantage must be minimal.
		
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Never played with him he was a couple of years younger than me.
Practiced alongside him on a couple of occasions and he was a very good striker of the ball.

He didn't pinch an inch he pinched yards.
His technique was to rush ahead to the green on his own, pick up his ball and throw his marker nearer the hole.


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## Fyldewhite (Nov 30, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you Jezz, smoke was starting to come out of my ears!!! I found some of the earlier comments quite scary.
I played as a Pro for 8 years and anyone who has played at a decent level, county team upwards, would NEVER make that kind of error without knowing that they are cheating.
The Pro's are a pretty tight bunch and generally know 'who is at it'.
I have met Simon and he is a decent guy but I suspect he will get a lengthy ban.
		
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I agree, and I'm also quite surprise by the general sentiment of this thread.

Having seen the video it was pretty clear what he did. He knows he's not allowed to do it and he certainly didn't do it accidentaly. Totally different situation to Tiger's drop or Harrignton's moved ball. The ONLY plausible explanation for me here is that it was a deliberate attempt to cheat. From the way it was done it looked like it was second nature rather than a brain burp to be brutally honest and miles away from dropping a yard away from where you are supposed to gaining no real advantage or not seeing a ball move that subsequently HD TV picks up. If there is no previous then I suspect it will be a strong knuckle rap. If there is then he will hopefully get a lengthy ban, nice guy or not. I doubt if the evidence considered will be made public so we'll just have to trust the powers that be to make the decision. Sure they have no hidden agenda and won't crucify him unless he's bang to rights.


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## NWJocko (Nov 30, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Never played with him he was a couple of years younger than me.
Practiced alongside him on a couple of occasions and he was a very good striker of the ball.

He didn't pinch an inch he pinched yards.
His technique was to rush ahead to the green on his own, pick up his ball and throw his marker nearer the hole.
		
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Ah!!

Not exactly subtle! How did he get caught out?

Re dyson, only just seen the footage, mmmmm.


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## Dodger (Nov 30, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Ah!!

Not exactly subtle! How did he get caught out?

Re dyson, only just seen the footage, mmmmm.
		
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I heard a story from a member of Dunbar who played with him in a match at Goswick and played the 2nd which has a huge gully in front of the green,cheat had hit his onto the green and the other 3 down the gully and as this guy went up to get the line he caught the cheat lobbing his marker forward a good 6 feet!:rofl:

I am sure Officials set a trap and caught him doing the same from what I remember.


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## NWJocko (Nov 30, 2013)

Dodger said:



			I heard a story from a member of Dunbar who played with him in a match at Goswick and played the 2nd which has a huge gully in front of the green,cheat had hit his onto the green and the other 3 down the gully and as this guy went up to get the line he caught the cheat lobbing his marker forward a good 6 feet!:rofl:

I am sure Officials set a trap and caught him doing the same from what I remember.
		
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That'll do it, what a plum!

Wonder why, if he was as good as his reputation, he would risk it by doing something so bloody stupid!?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 30, 2013)

Fyldewhite said:



			I agree, and I'm also quite surprise by the general sentiment of this thread.

Having seen the video it was pretty clear what he did. He knows he's not allowed to do it and he certainly didn't do it accidentaly. Totally different situation to Tiger's drop or Harrignton's moved ball. The ONLY plausible explanation for me here is that it was a deliberate attempt to cheat. From the way it was done it looked like it was second nature rather than a brain burp to be brutally honest and miles away from dropping a yard away from where you are supposed to gaining no real advantage or not seeing a ball move that subsequently HD TV picks up. If there is no previous then I suspect it will be a strong knuckle rap. If there is then he will hopefully get a lengthy ban, nice guy or not. I doubt if the evidence considered will be made public so we'll just have to trust the powers that be to make the decision. Sure they have no hidden agenda and won't crucify him unless he's bang to rights.
		
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I don't think it's clear at all 

And the only plausible explanation isn't that he tried to cheat 

Another just as plausible explanation and the more likely one is he wasn't thinking and a human mistake - something we are all prone to doing


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2013)

Fyldewhite said:



			He knows he's not allowed to do it and he certainly didn't do it accidentaly. Totally different situation to Tiger's drop or Harrignton's moved ball. The ONLY plausible explanation for me here is that it was a deliberate attempt to cheat.
		
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I'm not a Tiger hater but I completely agree that it's totally different to the Woods drop. Woods admitted that he *deliberately* broke the rules by dropping behind where he should have done. Should have been DQ'd the minute the words left his mouth. If you're saying that Dyson knows he's not allowed to do it then the same goes for Woods. You can't have it both ways.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 30, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Then that could obviously put a different slant on matters.
		
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Their trying to clean up the game using a Dyson , sounds about right.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Their trying to clean up the game using a Dyson , sounds about right.

Click to expand...

I bought myself one of those Dyson Ball Cleaners. Turns out it wasn't what I thought it was and I spent 4 hours up at A + E.


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## duncan mackie (Nov 30, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			Woods admitted that he *deliberately* broke the rules by dropping behind where he should have done. Should have been DQ'd the minute the words left his mouth. If you're saying that Dyson knows he's not allowed to do it then the same goes for Woods. You can't have it both ways.
		
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no

woods deliberately dropped the ball where he did, and he felt that dropping it there gave him an advantage

1. he did not do so knowing the drop was against the rules 
2. the committee had already reviewed the drop before he signed his card and ruled that he had not gained an advantage from where he dropped relative to where he should have dropped - their ruling overrides his assesment of advantage!

no-one want's it both ways


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			no

woods deliberately dropped the ball where he did, and he felt that dropping it there gave him an advantage

1. he did not do so knowing the drop was against the rules 
2. the committee had already reviewed the drop before he signed his card and ruled that he had not gained an advantage from where he dropped relative to where he should have dropped - their ruling overrides his assesment of advantage!

no-one want's it both ways
		
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1. So you are saying that Woods doesn't know the rules of golf regarding taking a drop? As an 18 handicapper I know the rules and if I'm unsure I'll check with one of my playing partners before I do it. He knew what he was doing and admitted it.
2. It doesn't matter what the committee ruled. Having admitted breaking the rules he should have been DQ'd. In my opinion the committee made their decision based on TV viewing figures and what the sponsors wanted rather than what would have happened if if had been John Nobody instead of Tiger Woods.


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## JCW (Nov 30, 2013)

Lets clear one thing up here between the two , Dyson`s offence was to improve the line of his putt , weather he knew what he was doing and did it or  was it something he just did and said oops what have I done and hoped he got away with it or as I think the 1st he knew about it was when he was pulled up , there was no need for a ref , woods was a drop where rules are laid down to how its done and there is a ref with each playing group who he can get advise from if he so wish as to the correct method to drop , or you can say the ref with the group should have stop him making that drop because it was not within the rules , so there you have it ...........they are not the same , but woods and TV viewing figures saved him from a DQ and many thought he should have DQ himself , but did the masters committee tell him not too , we will never know that one ..................EYG


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## Siren (Dec 1, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			I bought myself one of those Dyson Ball Cleaners. Turns out it wasn't what I thought it was and I spent 4 hours up at A + E.
		
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2013)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Righto, that makes more sense! Could potentially argue by seeing a rule break, and not mentioning it, isn't that in itself "agreeing" to break the rules? It's semantics though, so lets not go down that route!
		
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Seeing a clear Rule break and not doing anything about it certainly would.

Catching a glimpse of something that might have been a Rule break is a whole different scenario. Depending on the situation, the observer might check with the FC during or after the round or maybe discuss with other players - at the time or later.


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## shivas irons (Dec 1, 2013)

Ok I'm going to stick my neck out here .....Simon Dyson seems to have the traits associated with ADD.The guy is very hyped up and fidgety during playing and has as we know I think accidently made rule errors from time to time in the past which would tally in with the lack of concentration.I dont think for one minute the guys a cheat but if it is character to behave like this how can the tour deal with that?


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## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2013)

shivas irons said:



			Ok I'm going to stick my neck out here .....Simon Dyson seems to have the traits associated with ADD.The guy is very hyped up and fidgety during playing and has as we know I think accidently made rule errors from time to time in the past which would tally in with the lack of concentration.I dont think for one minute the guys a cheat but if it is character to behave like this how can the tour deal with that?
		
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This doesn't seem a unreasonable explanation to me. He's always seems rather like a rabbit in the headlights to me.


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## Slab (Dec 5, 2013)

Well today's the day the teddy bears have their picnic... will be interested to hear the outcome


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

From what I hear on the grapevine it may not go well for him.


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## jimbob.someroo (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			From what I hear on the grapevine it may not go well for him.
		
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Not heard anything concrete, but got a horrible feeling they might look to make an example of him. Only slight positive if he does get a 3 month ban or similar is that he'd be back in time for the season proper next year.

Would destroy his reputation though and he's likely gonna have this following him around for the rest of his playing days whatever the outcome. Shame, seems like a decent bloke.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

If he gets a ban purely on that incident then it's a disgrace

If they have other evidence from other pros then I would be disgusted that they all come out now.

Think the whole thing is shocking


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If he gets a ban purely on that incident then it's a disgrace

If they have other evidence from other pros then I would be disgusted that they all come out now.

Think the whole thing is shocking
		
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:thup:


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			From what I hear on the grapevine it may not go well for him.
		
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who or what is this grapevine? man in pub? t'interweb forum? postman? assistant pro at muni club?


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## shivas irons (Dec 5, 2013)

Judging by this article an the hoola surrounding the hearing a 3 month ban looks like a possible outcome, cant see them treating this any differently to the Saltman case although Dyson has had much more success http://www.express.co.uk/sport/golf/446834/Judgement-day-for-Simon-Dyson


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

shivas irons said:



			Judging by this article an the hoola surrounding the hearing a 3 month ban looks like a possible outcome, *cant see them treating this any differently to the Saltman case* although Dyson has had much more success http://www.express.co.uk/sport/golf/446834/Judgement-day-for-Simon-Dyson

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why? completely different circumstances, Saltman did it on at least 5 known occasions eluding to premeditated thinking. Dyson's action looks to have been a reflex reaction to suddenly spotting a spike mark right in front of his ball when marking. I do believe he realised straight after but maybe was too embarrassed to bring it to anyones attention, but as he never said straight away we will never know.

I hope he just gets a fine and a slap on the wrists for a mistake, a ban affecting his whole career is far to harsh and doesnt reflect the seriousness of the action...IMO


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## bladeplayer (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			why? completely different circumstances, Saltman did it on at least 5 known occasions eluding to premeditated thinking. Dyson's action looks to have been a reflex reaction to suddenly spotting a spike mark right in front of his ball when marking. I do believe he realised straight after but maybe was too embarrassed to bring it to anyones attention, but as he never said straight away we will never know.

I hope he just gets a fine and a slap on the wrists for a mistake, a ban affecting his whole career is far to harsh and doesnt reflect the seriousness of the action...IMO
		
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If  they see it as you say ,as just a momentary lapse / mistake (it may well have been only SD knows) then surely the DQ is enough ,isnt it? 

If they dont see it as this then they are saying he purposely cheated and a ban would have to follow surely


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			who or what is this grapevine? man in pub? t'interweb forum? postman? assistant pro at muni club?



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No, none of the above. I shall not reveal where I heard it but it is a lot more reliable than those.


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			No, none of the above. I shall not reveal where I heard it but it is a lot more reliable than those.
		
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there are always people who think they are in the know, they do more harm that good with their fishwives gossip:angry:


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			there are always people who think they are in the know, they do more harm that good with their fishwives gossip:angry:
		
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Fish wives gossip :clap:, I wish I could tell you who told me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Have heard from someone who works on the ET that they are going to come down hard on him and there have been input from other players.


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## USER1999 (Dec 5, 2013)

I have heard that they are going to hang him. It's in the latest rule book, that capital punishment is now compulsory for minor rule infractions.


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			Fish wives gossip :clap:, I wish I could tell you who told me.
		
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well they cant be in a senior professional position, as betraying that position of importance just wouldnt be professional now would it? and then he told you, who then comes and posts it on a world internet forum 

like I said, the world is full of these types who crave attention by saying they are 'in the know'......but you didn't hear it from me, right:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			well they cant be in a senior professional position, as betraying that position of importance just wouldnt be professional now would it? and then he told you, who then comes and posts it on a world internet forum 

like I said, the world is full of these types who crave attention by saying they are 'in the know'......but you didn't hear it from me, right:rofl:
		
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Or maybe he does know someone in the know and has been kind enough to pass on some info to us all. 

Not everyone is "craving attention"


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## shivas irons (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			why? completely different circumstances, Saltman did it on at least 5 known occasions eluding to premeditated thinking. Dyson's action looks to have been a reflex reaction to suddenly spotting a spike mark right in front of his ball when marking. I do believe he realised straight after but maybe was too embarrassed to bring it to anyones attention, but as he never said straight away we will never know.

I hope he just gets a fine and a slap on the wrists for a mistake, a ban affecting his whole career is far to harsh and doesnt reflect the seriousness of the action...IMO
		
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No its not different circumstances, theres players coming forward with all sorts of allegations against Dyson, the ET wouldnt be going to all this trouble for a one off incident.


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## Fyldewhite (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			....... a reflex reaction to suddenly spotting a spike mark right in front of his ball when marking
		
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Therein lies the proplem ....perhaps? I struggle to control mine sometimes lol  

As I said above, I'm sure the panel will consider all the evidence and come to a fair decision based on the known facts. I've been involved in the past with a similar hearing (county player) and believe me it's difficult to prove anything. One thing I would add though is that the burden of proof is only "the balance of probability" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt" so they don't need concrete proof, just to be sure that cheating is the most plausible explanation of the actions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

shivas irons said:



			No its not different circumstances, theres players coming forward with all sorts of allegations against Dyson, the ET wouldnt be going to all this trouble for a one off incident.
		
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I do believe the ET had to hold a hearing because the actual incident that happened as opposed other players coming forward 

Think it's in their rules or something


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## cookelad (Dec 5, 2013)

Struggle to see why the other players would keep quiet about previous incidents until now, it's their livelihoods they're playing out there for, if SD should have been DQ'ed a few times then that's a lot of someone else's money he's trousered!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Fyldewhite said:



			Therein lies the proplem ....perhaps? I struggle to control mine sometimes lol  

As I said above, I'm sure the panel will consider all the evidence and come to a fair decision based on the known facts. I've been involved in the past with a similar hearing (county player) and believe me it's difficult to prove anything. One thing I would add though is that the burden of proof is only "the balance of probability" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt" so they don't need concrete proof, just to be sure that cheating is the most plausible explanation of the actions.
		
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Hence why if Dyson is too be punished hard on the "balance of probability" he could take it further - and I hope he does


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or maybe he does know someone in the know and has been kind enough to pass on some info to us all. 

Not everyone is "craving attention"
		
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this one certainly is, it's why they do it, basic human psychology 

..kind enough to pass on some hearsay.............lol, seriously!


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			well they cant be in a senior professional position, as betraying that position of importance just wouldnt be professional now would it? and then he told you, who then comes and posts it on a world internet forum 

like I said, the world is full of these types who crave attention by saying they are 'in the know'......but you didn't hear it from me, right:rofl:
		
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The person I spoke to didn't say "You didn't hear it from me" it is all common knowledge stuff on tour, I just think it best to keep his name out of it. I'm sorry if I offended your obviously impeccable scruples. Any inside the tour info I get in future I will be sure to keep to myself for fear of offending anyone.


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

shivas irons said:



			No its not different circumstances, theres players coming forward with all sorts of allegations against Dyson, the ET wouldnt be going to all this trouble for a one off incident.
		
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I dont see how you cannot see the different circumstances even when you have the facts laid out

Where are you getting the information about *other players coming forward with all sorts of allegations*? link please


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			this one certainly is, it's why they do it, basic human psychology 

..kind enough to pass on some hearsay.............lol, seriously!
		
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How do you know he is ? 

You don't know him to be able to see any basic human psychology 

I could say you always get those naysayers who dismiss anything and everything but that would be unfair of me to make personal judgements on a forum.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			I dont see how you cannot see the different circumstances even when you have the facts laid out

Where are you getting the information about *other players coming forward with all sorts of allegations*? link please
		
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I have been told by someone that works in the media department ( events ) of the ET that some players have given evidence 

Now you can believe that or you can accuse me of "craving attention"


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			The person I spoke to didn't say "You didn't hear it from me" *it is all common knowledge stuff on tour*, I just think it best to keep his name out of it. I'm sorry if I offended your obviously impeccable scruples. Any inside the tour info I get in future I will be sure to keep to myself for fear of offending anyone. 

Click to expand...

yeah thought so, Gossip! and its people like you that fuel the fires!! Theres a man's livelyhood and reputation at stake and you're firmly in the mob holding up flaming torches and rope!


and just to be crystal clear, my impeccable scruples as you politely referred to, is just a normal persons sense of fairplay and justice...based on facts.


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know he is ? 

You don't know him to be able to see any basic human psychology 

I could say you always get those naysayers who dismiss anything and everything but that would be unfair of me to make personal judgements on a forum.
		
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I'm just letting the forum know what I've been told by someone who is a lot closer to it than any of us are. How can you crave attention on an internet forum? The mind boggles.:thup:to you though Phil, receiving the info how it was meant.


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## Birchy (Dec 5, 2013)

Lets be honest though, whatever the ET decides they better have it water tight or Dyson will challenge it for sure imo.

If he gets made too much of a scapegoat without any solid evidence this might not be the last we hear of it.

I just hope whatever happens we get to hear some proper facts and reasoning but im not holding my breath.


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have been told by someone that works in the media department ( events ) of the ET that some players have given evidence 

Now you can believe that or you can accuse me of "craving attention"
		
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no, but I'm certainly accusing you of passing on unsubstanciated hearsay!!! giving evidence can mean positive evidence as well.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			yeah thought so, Gossip! and its people like you that fuel the fires!! Theres a man's livelyhood and reputation at stake and you're firmly in the mob holding up flaming torches and rope!


and just to be crystal clear, my impeccable scruples as you politely referred to, is just a normal persons sense of fairplay and justice...based on facts.
		
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How do you know it's "gossip" 

Or is a fact spoke between two people gossip now ? 

As for the guff about a mans livelihood etc - does Dyson read this ? Will posting what a few have suddenly damage his reputation ?

How has anyone joined any mob by passing on snippets of info they have heard or been told ?

And finally did Wildrover steal one of your chips at one stage ?


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			yeah thought so, Gossip! and its people like you that fuel the fires!! Theres a man's livelyhood and reputation at stake and you're firmly in the mob holding up flaming torches and rope!


and just to be crystal clear, my impeccable scruples as you politely referred to, is just a normal persons sense of fairplay and justice...based on facts.
		
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You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. I take no pleasure in stating that I've heard they are going to hammer him. I've met Simon a few times, I followed him in the final of the English Amateur years ago when he lost to Paul Casey and followed his career ever since. So I am not part of the lynch mob at all. I actually hope common sense prevails and he avoids a ban. Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly and tar everyone with the same brush.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			no, but I'm certainly accusing you of passing on unsubstanciated hearsay!!! giving evidence can mean positive evidence as well.
		
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Hearsay ? How do you know it's just "hearsay"


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know he is ? 

You don't know him to be able to see any basic human psychology 

I could say you always get those naysayers who dismiss anything and everything but that would be unfair of me to make personal judgements on a forum.
		
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correct, I dont know him, thats why I said basic human psychology............


@wildrover, you have misunderstood, its not craving attention on a forum, maybe re read the post


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hearsay ? How do you know it's just "hearsay"
		
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LOL, because you passed it on as hearsay...........


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			correct, I dont know him, thats why I said basic human psychology............


@wildrover, you have misunderstood, its not craving attention on a forum, maybe re read the post
		
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You don't know him so don't judge him then - don't put people into the same pigeon hole


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. I take no pleasure in stating that I've heard they are going to hammer him. I've met Simon a few times, I followed him in the final of the English Amateur years ago when he lost to Paul Casey and followed his career ever since. So I am not part of the lynch mob at all. I actually hope common sense prevails and he avoids a ban. Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly and tar everyone with the same brush.
		
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this post has so may contradictions I dont know where to start:lol:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			LOL, because you passed it on as hearsay...........

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So what happens it it's factually correct then.


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## guest100718 (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. I take no pleasure in stating that I've heard they are going to hammer him. I've met Simon a few times, I followed him in the final of the English Amateur years ago when he lost to Paul Casey and followed his career ever since. So I am not part of the lynch mob at all. I actually hope common sense prevails and he avoids a ban. Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly and tar everyone with the same brush.
		
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So are they going to hammer him or let him off? It's like the transfer deadline, I tried to keep a record once of all the players the papers had claimed had definetly signed for Spurs in a transfer window, I gave up after getting to 100... All BS of the highest order.


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You don't know him so don't judge him then - don't put people into the same pigeon hole
		
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not sure you understand the phrase basic human psychology, it refers to all humans generically.


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			this one certainly is, it's why they do it, basic human psychology 

..kind enough to pass on some hearsay.............lol, seriously!
		
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So CMAC, when LiverpoolPhil said not "not everyone is craving attention" what did you mean by the above then, I'm confused. Maybe you should read your posts.


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what happens it it's factually correct then.
		
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is that in the future you are talking about or do you know its factually correct before the hearing publishes its decision? if the latter then post the details! or can we all play the what if scenarios.

I've been very clear in my opinion whatever the outcome. My gripeis with all the hearsay and gossip mongering without any substanciation, not sure why you want to defend that


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			correct, I dont know him, thats why I said basic human psychology............


@wildrover, you have misunderstood, its not craving attention on a forum, maybe re read the post
		
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You're ignoring this then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			is that in the future you are talking about or do you know its factually correct before the hearing publishes its decision? if the latter then post the details! or can we all play the what if scenarios.

I've been very clear in my opinion whatever the outcome. My gripeis with all the hearsay and gossip mongering without any substanciation, not sure why you want to defend that
		
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I'm sure of one thing - you don't read peoples posts and certainly have one opinion regardless on what people have posted. 

People have posted snippets of info that have been passed on and you just dismiss it immediately as hearsay and gossip. 

If what has been posted turns out to be factually correct I'm sure we will see you on here dishing out the apologies to people. 

You can either choose to believe or not believe what people have posted but please don't pass judgement on people and try and be a bit more polite to people.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2013)

Does anyone know what time the hearing starts? I'm sure I heard somewhere that it was being televised. Anyone know if that's true?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does anyone know what time the hearing starts? I'm sure I heard somewhere that it was being televised. Anyone know if that's true?
		
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Televised ? Can't see it being televised. Only release in the press is the date no timings


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm sure of one thing - you don't read peoples posts and certainly have one opinion regardless on what people have posted. 

*People have posted snippets of info that have been passed on and you just dismiss it immediately as hearsay and gossip. *

If what has been posted turns out to be factually correct I'm sure we will see you on here dishing out the apologies to people. 

You can either choose to believe or not believe what people have posted but please don't pass judgement on people and try and be a bit more polite to people.
		
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isnt that the definition of hearsay and gossip?



you dont get it, I'm not saying what the decision will be, I'm saying dont post gossip and hearsay, post facts and details if you must.
and yes, I have one opinion and that is I hate injustice and mobrule, I questioned the negative gossip and no answers have been given to substanciate it.

Time to move on and leave you guys to it. My points and hopes about Simon Dyson still stand


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## CMAC (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			You're ignoring this then?
		
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give me a chance, I've at least 3 of you firing stuff at me just now :whoo:

here's my post #105 does this explain it?



CMAC said:



			well they cant be in a senior professional position, as betraying that position of importance just wouldnt be professional now would it? and then he told you, who then comes and posts it on a world internet forum 

like I said, the world is full of these types who crave attention by saying they are 'in the know'......but you didn't hear it from me, right:rofl:
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Mobrule ? And Injustice ? - what are you talking about here - where is this Mobrule you are talking about 

And snippets of information is exactly that - snippets of information - they could be factually what we have posted but you dismiss them at gossip. There is a clear difference. 

I have told you where I have got my info from. You can believe that if you want but I'm not going around spreading "gossip"


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## Fish (Dec 5, 2013)

Well I was only saying to the wife's sister in bed this morning, Dyson's going to get it, big style....


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

CMAC said:



			give me a chance, I've at least 3 of you firing stuff at me just now :whoo:

here's my post #105 does this explain it?
		
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Quote Originally Posted by CMAC View Post 

well they cant be in a senior professional position, as betraying that position of importance just wouldnt be professional now would it? and then he told you, who then comes and posts it on a world internet forum 

 like I said, the world is full of these types who crave attention by saying they are 'in the know'......but you didn't hear it from me, right

Not really, "these types who crave attention" ???


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## Wildrover (Dec 5, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does anyone know what time the hearing starts? I'm sure I heard somewhere that it was being televised. Anyone know if that's true?
		
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I seem to remember seeing somewhere that it was being streamed live but can't for the life of me remember where.


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## Dave3498 (Dec 5, 2013)

Are we all missing the real point here?  Where are the markers in these situations?  Surely it's the responsibility of the marker to pull the player up when they see that they have infringed a rule, but nobody even bothers to involve them in the discussions.  You could say this about the Tiger incident in the Masters also.  Rory McIlroy had a lot to thank Luke Donald for, when Donald advised him to penalise himself 2 shots for removing sand for in front of his ball when the were playing together at Abu Dhabi last year.  If Donald had ignored it, Rory would have signed for the wrong score and been disqualified.  As it was Rory simply slipped back a few places.  I sometimes wonder whether fellow players marking cards are happy to see a rule infringement which will have a player signing for the wrong score and be disqualified.  If Dyson's marker had been more astute, he would have told him about the infringement before he teed-off on the next hole.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			Are we all missing the real point here?  Where are the markers in these situations?  Surely it's the responsibility of the marker to pull the player up when they see that they have infringed a rule, but nobody even bothers to involve them in the discussions.  You could say this about the Tiger incident in the Masters also.  Rory McIlroy had a lot to thank Luke Donald for, when Donald advised him to penalise himself 2 shots for removing sand for in front of his ball when the were playing together at Abu Dhabi last year.  If Donald had ignored it, Rory would have signed for the wrong score and been disqualified.  As it was Rory simply slipped back a few places.  I sometimes wonder whether fellow players marking cards are happy to see a rule infringement which will have a player signing for the wrong score and be disqualified.  If Dyson's marker had been more astute, he would have told him about the infringement before he teed-off on the next hole.
		
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That's assuming of course that the marker observed the incident.


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## Tommo21 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			Are we all missing the real point here?  Where are the markers in these situations?  Surely it's the responsibility of the marker to pull the player up when they see that they have infringed a rule, but nobody even bothers to involve them in the discussions.  You could say this about the Tiger incident in the Masters also.  Rory McIlroy had a lot to thank Luke Donald for, when Donald advised him to penalise himself 2 shots for removing sand for in front of his ball when the were playing together at Abu Dhabi last year.  If Donald had ignored it, Rory would have signed for the wrong score and been disqualified.  As it was Rory simply slipped back a few places.  I sometimes wonder whether fellow players marking cards are happy to see a rule infringement which will have a player signing for the wrong score and be disqualified.  If Dyson's marker had been more astute, he would have told him about the infringement before he teed-off on the next hole.
		
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Do you watch everything your playing partners do...........


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## Dave3498 (Dec 5, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			Do you watch everything your playing partners do...........
		
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I certainly do, and so should you if your marking a competition card.  You are acting on behalf of every other competitor and it's your responsibility or ensure that the score returned is within the rules.  None of this "what did you get on the 18th" stuff.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			I seem to remember seeing somewhere that it was being streamed live but can't for the life of me remember where.
		
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Seesay?

In this case, I'm with CMAC. Until the hearing results, and any evidence, are made public everything about this is simply hearsay, gossip and rumours!

Even if any of these turn out to be true, there would be no apology required!

In fact, if it's true that there have been 'other instances', it's probably more of an issue that 'questionable activity' hasn't been challenged before.

Of quite a few Pros I know/have known to any extent, the concept of cheating in any way, or not challenging a questionable incident, was completely out of the question.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2013)

Fish said:



			Well I was only saying to the wife's sister in bed this morning, Dyson's going to get it, big style....
		
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Tut tut - you broke law of Leviticus Ch18, v18 (btw - lots of good stuff you musn't do in Leviticus Ch18 if you are looking for rules to break)


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## Kellfire (Dec 5, 2013)

Â£30000 fine, costs of Â£7500 and a two month suspended ban.


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## virtuocity (Dec 5, 2013)

So it's fair to say that Simon Dyson is officially a cheater?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			So it's fair to say that Simon Dyson is officially a cheater?
		
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Has it been proven beyond all reasonable doubt ? If not then no it's not fair to call him a cheater.


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## Kellfire (Dec 5, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			So it's fair to say that Simon Dyson is officially a cheater?
		
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No. They stated that they found he was NOT a cheater.

"a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of cheating."

So no. Officially you can't say that.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2013)

So after all this, they have come to the conclusion that he didn't cheat but it was a "momentary aberration" and that there is no history of misconduct.

So no other players came forward, he just made a mistake


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## mefromhere (Dec 5, 2013)

I think it's fair to say that Â£7,500 is a lot of money to pay for 3 people to sit in a room and decide what punishment you get!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Yet the punishment given doesn't seem to fit that ? 

Does that mean every mistake is now going to get the same punishment


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## pogle (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet the punishment given doesn't seem to fit that ? 

Does that mean every mistake is now going to get the same punishment
		
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But this part of the judgement implies it wasn't a "mistake"

3. The Panel held that charge to have been made out by the Tour.  In particular, it found that:
(a) Mr Dysonâ€™s action in touching the line of his putt was a deliberate one;
(b) that act was committed by him in the knowledge of the Rule forbidding such an act; and
(c) his purpose in so acting was to improve his position on the green by pressing down a spike mark.

i.e. He deliberately did it, he knew he shouldn't have done and he did it to gain an advantage.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

pogle said:



			But this part of the judgement implies it wasn't a "mistake"

3. The Panel held that charge to have been made out by the Tour.  In particular, it found that:
(a) Mr Dysonâ€™s action in touching the line of his putt was a deliberate one;
(b) that act was committed by him in the knowledge of the Rule forbidding such an act; and
(c) his purpose in so acting was to improve his position on the green by pressing down a spike mark.

i.e. He deliberately did it, he knew he shouldn't have done and he did it to gain an advantage.
		
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So they are contradicting themselves because that's saying he broke the rules to gain an advantage on purpose - ie cheating


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## mikee247 (Dec 5, 2013)

I think the whole thing is an absolute joke. Its not only embarrassing but down right deplorable to call this guy a cheat or to even suggest it which is what they are doing. He is a nice chap and a good sport and obviously had a slight lapse in concentration. Now hes professional status will be scarred for life. :angry: These sort of actions displays golf is still living in the dark ages and does nothing to attract more players and the younger generation. It fails again to use common sense when its quite clearly called for. There is no consistency shown here at all. The Tiger Wood ball moving incident was twice as bad IMO.
Obviously he had a brief moment where he wasnt thinking (I have seen the incident) why on earth would he try that and expect to get away with it. he wouldn't. He didnt and he got DQ'd.  It should have been done and dusted a long time ago and the fact that they have decided to drag it all out again and again degrade the poor guy is bloody medieval for gods sake. All this clap trap about standards and integrity etc etc is complete rubbish in this instance and displays the game and its antiquated hierarchy in the same light as it was 200 years ago. If I was Dyson I would shun the ET and go overseas and even appeal against the fine. :angry:


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			So it's fair to say that Simon Dyson is officially a cheater?
		
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NOT AS BIG A CHEAT AS FISH ADMITS TO IN HIS  POST.


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## Fish (Dec 5, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			NOT AS BIG A CHEAT AS FISH ADMITS TO IN HIS  POST.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2013)

So a sub-conscious deliberate action - bit like sleep-walking then


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			From what I hear on the grapevine it may not go well for him.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Apparently some players have come forward with some accusations of previous incidents ?
		
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shivas irons said:



			No its not different circumstances, theres players coming forward with all sorts of allegations against Dyson, the ET wouldnt be going to all this trouble for a one off incident.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I have been told by someone that works in the media department ( events ) of the ET that some players have given evidence 

Now you can believe that or you can accuse me of "craving attention"
		
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Wildrover said:



			I'm just letting the forum know what I've been told by someone who is a lot closer to it than any of us are. How can you crave attention on an internet forum? The mind boggles.:thup:to you though Phil, receiving the info how it was meant.
		
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Wildrover said:



			The person I spoke to didn't say "You didn't hear it from me" it is all common knowledge stuff on tour, I just think it best to keep his name out of it. I'm sorry if I offended your obviously impeccable scruples. Any inside the tour info I get in future I will be sure to keep to myself for fear of offending anyone. 

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Liverpoolphil said:



			Have heard from someone who works on the ET that they are going to come down hard on him and there have been input from other players.
		
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Does indeed seem that all the Hearsay, Fishwives stories etc were exactly that!

If any other players came forward, their evidence must have been positive for Dyson.

The size of the fine does seem as if they 'came down quite hard' though in terms of earnings....

I'm pleased he has been cleared of cheating. 

CMAC appears to have been proven correct on this occasion! I'd suggest at least 2, maybe 3 apologies are due!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2013)

Lucky boy, he has got off lightly.
Reputation in tatters though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			QUOTE=Wildrover;952947]From what I hear on the grapevine it may not go well for him.
		
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Does indeed seem that all the Hearsay, Fishwives stories etc were exactly that!

If any other players came forward, their evidence must have been positive for Dyson.

The size of the fine does seem as if they 'came down quite hard' though in terms of earnings....

I'm pleased he has been cleared of cheating. 

CMAC appears to have been proven correct on this occasion! I'd suggest at least 2, maybe 3 apologies are due![/QUOTE]

Actually not needed because we weren't throwing accusations at posters 

We were just passing on information we had been passed.


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## 19thagain (Dec 5, 2013)

pogle said:



			But this part of the judgement implies it wasn't a "mistake"

3. The Panel held that charge to have been made out by the Tour.  In particular, it found that:
(a) Mr Dysonâ€™s action in touching the line of his putt was a deliberate one;
(b) that act was committed by him in the knowledge of the Rule forbidding such an act; and
(c) his purpose in so acting was to improve his position on the green by pressing down a spike mark.

i.e. He deliberately did it, he knew he shouldn't have done and he did it to gain an advantage.
		
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A) he did not dispute that he did that so he did deliberately do it.
B)agreed but when we make a mistage - I knew I should have hit the k key instead of the g - so I was aware just forget,
C) no argument but as in b) this was a result of his mistake.

If every forgetful mistake you have made in life makes you feel a cheat etc or you judge your friends/ playing partners in this way, I am truly sorry for you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lucky boy, he has got off lightly.
Reputation in tatters though.
		
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Got off lightly ? How so when his reputation is in tatters ?

Believe he has been hung out it dry by the ET and think the whole thing is a disgrace.

We are supposed to trust golfers - they are saying they don't.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

pogle said:



			But this part of the judgement implies it wasn't a "mistake"

3. The Panel held that charge to have been made out by the Tour.  In particular, it found that:
(a) Mr Dysonâ€™s action in touching the line of his putt was a deliberate one;
(b) that act was committed by him in the knowledge of the Rule forbidding such an act; and
(c) his purpose in so acting was to improve his position on the green by pressing down a spike mark.

i.e. He deliberately did it, he knew he shouldn't have done and he did it to gain an advantage.
		
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As ever, quoting out of context can be misleading!

4 (ii) the fact, as the Panel found, that Mr Dysonâ€™s conduct on the occasion in question involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of cheating; and....

Is rather important!

What Point 3 is actually stating, imo, is simply establishing the facts of the offence. He broke a Rule (c). It was a conscious act - rather than to avoid injury etc. (a). It was his responsibility to know that it was against the Rules (b).

To me, 4(ii) is the actual Decision/Judgement.

Seems to me that they concluded that he's NOT a cheater.


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## Tommo21 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			I certainly do, and so should you if your marking a competition card.  You are acting on behalf of every other competitor and it's your responsibility or ensure that the score returned is within the rules.  None of this "what did you get on the 18th" stuff.
		
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Total tosh.............


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## Fish (Dec 5, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			As ever, quoting out of context can be misleading!

4 (ii) the fact, as the Panel found, that Mr Dysonâ€™s conduct on the occasion in question involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of cheating; and....
		
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in other words, a brain fart


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Can someone please post a link to the whole thing instead of misleading snippets ? 

Why is the punishment so severe if they believe it was a mistake ?


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually not needed because we weren't throwing accusations at posters 

We were just passing on information we had been passed.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I have been told by someone that works in the media department ( events ) of the ET that some players have given evidence 

Now you can believe that or you can accuse me of "craving attention"
		
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So your, and the other Fishwife sources, were unreliable then!

@Fish.... Perfectly Put! I was trying to think of the appropriate expression, but obviously had one of those myself!

Here's the link! http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=213822.html

As I posted earlier, the 'severity' of the monetary punishment needs to be related to the earnings. Think along the lines of Footballing Fines! The expenses are high, but in line with the costs of the personnel involved - a QC and 2 'high powered' Sports Administrators.


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## Fish (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can someone please post a link to the whole thing instead of misleading snippets ? 

Why is the punishment so severe if they believe it was a mistake ?
		
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I think getting a 'suspended' ban is a result, so, I disagree that its severe in the grand scheme of things, it could have been much worse with an actual ban, and, will that amount of money affect him that much, I'm not sure of his earnings, so.....


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## Tommo21 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can someone please post a link to the whole thing instead of misleading snippets ? 

Why is the punishment so severe if they believe it was a mistake ?
		
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/25221559


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			So your, and the other Fishwife sources, were unreliable then!

@Fish.... Perfectly Put! I was trying to think of the appropriate expression, but obviously had one of those myself!

Here's the link! http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=213822.html

Click to expand...

Yes they were unreliable in this occasion - i said when I posted what I did it was up to people to believe it or not . What idi don't like was people making judgements and suggesting I was craving attention.

Certainly don't feel I have anything to apologise for.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Fish said:



			I think getting a 'suspended' ban is a result, so, I disagree that its severe in the grand scheme of things, it could have been much worse with an actual ban, and, will that amount of money affect him that much, I'm not sure of his earnings, so.....
		
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But he has now been punished twice for the same mistake ? If they believe it was a mistake then why the second punishment ?


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## Fish (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But he has now been punished twice for the same mistake ? If they believe it was a mistake then why the second punishment ?
		
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The DQ is an immediate act, they then have to investigate and review the incident and pass sentence, no different to being locked up overnight (or longer) and still going to court for sentencing, which may get thrown out! 

I think its a result, he must have the money as he's only got 56 days to pay, I wonder if that's based on means testing


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But he has now been punished twice for the same mistake ? If they believe it was a mistake then why the second punishment ?
		
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No.

He was Penalised for the first mistake - actually technically his second - breaking the Rule. That Penalty was DQ from the comp.

He was Punished for being found guilty different offence - Breaking the Tour Disciplinary Code.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

So any time someone breaks a rule or makes a mistake we shall expect them to follow the precedence they have now set for themselves.

Think the whole thing stinks and hope he challenges the verdict but I don't think he will.

The guy made a mistake and has been hung out to dry.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Fish said:



			I think its a result, he must have the money as he's only got 56 days to pay, I wonder if that's based on means testing 

Click to expand...

 indeed!

83k Euros won in 2 tournaments 'this year'

417k Euros won last year - though the DQ wrecked his chances of getting to the Dubai Final.

I'd figure he's probably good for it! And as their earnings go through the ET anyway, I'd figure they'll simply deduct it from his Player Account!


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## Fish (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So any time someone breaks a rule or makes a mistake we shall expect them to follow the precedence they have now set for themselves.

Think the whole thing stinks and hope he challenges the verdict but I don't think he will.

The guy made a mistake and has been hung out to dry.
		
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Does a red card stop there by simply being sent off, no, they made a mistake, their sent from the field and then its adjudicated more dependent on the seriousness of the offence, no different IMO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Fish said:



			Does a red card stop there by simply being sent off, no, they made a mistake, their sent from the field and then its adjudicated more dependent on the seriousness of the offence, no different IMO.
		
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Does every DQ go to a three man panel ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So they are contradicting themselves because that's saying he broke the rules to gain an advantage on purpose - ie cheating
		
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It is perfectly possible for someone to do something that gains an advantage without being a cheat. i.e. by performing an action by mistake as they are saying Dyson did.

Exactly the same as Rory when he brushed the sand off of the fringe, he clearly did that to gain an advantage, but did it by mistake.

The is nothing contradictory or untoward going on here, the investigation has been carried out and they have decided that while he broke the rules, it wasn't a premeditated act of cheating. Case closed - or at least it should be but unfortunately some folk will never let it go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It is perfectly possible for someone to do something that gains an advantage without being a cheat. i.e. by performing an action by mistake as they are saying Dyson did.

Exactly the same as Rory when he brushed the sand off of the fringe, he clearly did that to gain an advantage, but did it by mistake.

The is nothing contradictory or untoward going on here, the investigation has been carried out and they have decided that while he broke the rules, it wasn't a premeditated act of cheating. Case closed - or at least it should be but unfortunately some folk will never let it go.
		
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So why wasn't Rory hauled before a three man committee and then punished further ? 

Or when people take incorrect drops ? 

So much inconsistency about the whole situation

I believe he has made a mistake and I believe that this punishment has now ruined his reputation.


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## In_The_Rough (Dec 5, 2013)

Dyson has earned just over 9.5 million Euros in his career, add in sponsorships and the fine is neither here nor their. What has been damaged is his reputation and that will stick with him for a long time if not forever


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can someone please post a link to the whole thing instead of misleading snippets ? 

Why is the punishment so severe if they believe it was a mistake ?
		
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You could always look on the ET website


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why wasn't Rory hauled before a three man committee and then punished further ? 

Or when people take incorrect drops ? 

So much inconsistency about the whole situation

I believe he has made a mistake and I believe that this punishment has now ruined his reputation.
		
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Why don't you e-mail the ET and ask them


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You could always look on the ET website
		
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It has already been posted but thanks for the help


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Why don't you e-mail the ET and ask them
		
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Well you were so definite in your answer to my post that I guessed you knew all the answers. 

You it seems it's case closed - I believe it's worth discussing further.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes they were unreliable in this occasion - i said when I posted what I did it was up to people to believe it or not . What idi don't like was people making judgements and suggesting I was craving attention.

Certainly don't feel I have anything to apologise for.
		
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Apart from getting it seriously wrong in the following post...



Liverpoolphil said:



			I have been told by someone that works in the media department ( events ) of the ET that some players have given evidence 

Now you can believe that or you can accuse me of "craving attention"
		
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Btw. I don't think CMAC was actually referring to you in the 'craving attention' post - merely quoting your post as a reference. Not uncommon forum misconception that is tricky to correct in a forum. Robobum will be along shortly to tell you how to do it properly! 

Thanks Hawkeye. The Rory sand incident was also a perfect analogy - fortunately caught before it got to the DQ stage.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Apart from getting it seriously wrong in the following post...



Btw. I don't think CMAC was actually referring to you in the 'craving attention' post - merely quoting your post as a reference. Not uncommon forum misconception that is tricky to correct in a forum. Robobum will be along shortly to tell you how to do it properly! 

Thanks Hawkeye. The Rory sand incident was also a perfect analogy - fortunately caught before it got to the DQ stage.
		
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So we know that zero players gave evidence - negative or positive ?


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## ger147 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why wasn't Rory hauled before a three man committee and then punished further ? 

Or when people take incorrect drops ? 

So much inconsistency about the whole situation

I believe he has made a mistake and I believe that this punishment has now ruined his reputation.
		
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The official explanation for the disciplinary hearing taking place:

At the conclusion of the tournament, and having reviewed subsequent reports from Tournament Director Mikael Eriksson and Chief Referee John Paramor, it was decided by David Garland, Director of Tour Operations for The European Tour, that further action was required under The European Tourâ€™s Code of Behaviour and Disciplinary Procedure which states:â€œ3. Serious Breach. If, at the conclusion of an investigation into an alleged breach of the Code by a Member, it is evident that a serious breach of the Code may have occurred, then a disciplinary hearing shall take place before an independent disciplinary panel.â€


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 5, 2013)

Not quite sure how I feel about this to be fair. After all the speculation in the media that he would be hit with a massive punishment I would say the fine, costs and suspended ban is about fair. What it says about Dyson though and the "mud sticks" damage to his reputation, whether rightly or wrongly , is troublesome. He was DQ'd in a blaze of publicity and admitted his mistake. As there was none of this other "evidence" I think enough is now enough.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

ger147 said:



			The official explanation for the disciplinary hearing taking place:

At the conclusion of the tournament, and having reviewed subsequent reports from Tournament Director Mikael Eriksson and Chief Referee John Paramor, it was decided by David Garland, Director of Tour Operations for The European Tour, that further action was required under The European Tourâ€™s Code of Behaviour and Disciplinary Procedure which states:â€œ3. Serious Breach. If, at the conclusion of an investigation into an alleged breach of the Code by a Member, it is evident that a serious breach of the Code may have occurred, then a disciplinary hearing shall take place before an independent disciplinary panel.â€
		
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Trying to grab the basics of the decision - they have found him guilty of breaking the code but not guilty of cheating. Now the code talks about honesty and integrity about the game so is making a mistake or having a momentary lapse breaking a code ? . 

I think he is ruined now - reputation in regards honesty and integrity is massive in golf.


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## ger147 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Trying to grab the basics of the decision - they have found him guilty of breaking the code but not guilty of cheating. Now the code talks about honesty and integrity about the game so is making a mistake or having a momentary lapse breaking a code ? . 

I think he is ruined now - reputation in regards honesty and integrity is massive in golf.
		
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You would have to ask them that, I was just posting the reason for the hearing i.e. it was deemed a serious breach unlike the Rory sand incident as an example. I don't know what makes this incident a serious breach.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

ger147 said:



			You would have to ask them that, I was just posting the reason for the hearing i.e. it was deemed a serious breach unlike the Rory sand incident as an example. I don't know what makes this incident a serious breach.
		
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Rory called a 2 stroke penalty on  himself, as soon as he realised [was told] he had committed an infringement, where as Dyson did not.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well you were so definite in your answer to my post that I guessed you knew all the answers. 

You it seems it's case closed - I believe it's worth discussing further.
		
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What else do you want to know? He broke the code of conduct but he's not a cheat. As far as I'm concerned, no more needs to be said about it.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So we know that zero players gave evidence - negative or positive ?
		
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I would think 'positive', letting his 14 years unblemished record speak for itself. In effect, that's upward of 300+ players stating, by default, they haven't noticed anything untoward. That's admittedly a slightly positive spin. Having seen the incident replayed, 'Brain Fart' seems the appropriate description - and little, if any, more than Rory's sand incident.

I don't believe his reputation is tarnished, though I bet he'll be considerably more careful and watched a bit closer in the future!

'Suspended Sentence' seems entirely appropriate to me. I'd be prepared to bet that the suspension 'falls away'.


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## Spuddy (Dec 5, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Rory called a 2 stroke penalty on  himself, as soon as he realised [was told] he had committed an infringement, where as Dyson did not.
		
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In both cases, the players didn't realise they had broken a rule until someone else told them. Rory was lucky that his occurred before the card was signed to avoid being DQ'd but both players improved their line illegally.  It's odd that Dyson gets hauled over the coals for it.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why wasn't Rory hauled before a three man committee and then punished further ? 

Or when people take incorrect drops ? 

So much inconsistency about the whole situation

.[/QUOTE
Rory realised his mistake immediately and added the appropriate penalty.  SD whether he knew what he had done or not did not bring it to the attention of his marker or referee bus was only caught after a viewer called the ET.  In my the ST have acted perfectly reasonably in bringing this case to a tribunal.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			So why wasn't Rory hauled before a three man committee and then punished further ? 

Or when people take incorrect drops ? 

So much inconsistency about the whole situation

.[/QUOTE
Rory realised his mistake immediately and added the appropriate penalty.  SD whether he knew what he had done or not did not bring it to the attention of his marker or referee bus was only caught after a viewer called the ET.  In my the ST have acted perfectly reasonably in bringing this case to a tribunal.
		
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Didn't Donald notice Rory's mistake and not actually him ? 

Dyson didn't actually realise what he had done and when shown then realised he made a mistake
		
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## Spuddy (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:





doublebogey7 said:



			Didn't Donald notice Rory's mistake and not actually him ? 

Dyson didn't actually realise what he had done and when shown then realised he made a mistake
		
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Exactly, neither player knew themselves that they had cocked up
		
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## doublebogey7 (Dec 5, 2013)

Spuddy said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Exactly, neither player knew themselves that they had cocked up
		
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Clearly Rory did as he added the penalty at the time.  Yes Luke pointed it out to him ,  but who's to say Rory would not have realised anyway.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:





Spuddy said:



			Clearly Rory did as he added the penalty at the time.  Yes Luke pointed it out to him ,  but who's to say Rory would not have realised anyway.
		
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He only added the penalty after being told by Donald.
		
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## doublebogey7 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:





doublebogey7 said:



			Didn't Donald notice Rory's mistake and not actually him ? 

Dyson didn't actually realise what he had done and when shown then realised he made a mistake
		
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You mean when confronted with the obvious.  That's not to say I believe SD cheated,  but there is a clear difference between the two cases.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			You mean when confronted with the obvious.  That's not to say I believe SD cheated,  but there is a clear difference between the two cases.
		
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Is there ? In what way ?
		
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## doublebogey7 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:





doublebogey7 said:



			He only added the penalty after being told by Donald.
		
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Yes but Donald pointed it out to him immediately we do not know whether given more time Rory may well have realised anyway.  SD had hours to realise and clealry did not.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes but Donald pointed it out to him immediately we do not know whether given more time Rory may well have realised anyway.  SD had hours to realise and clealry did not.
		
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You're right you don't know - Rory was lucky that Donald pointed it out to him.

No one pointed it out it Dyson so he didn't realise just like Rory didnt realise.
		
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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes but Donald pointed it out to him immediately we do not know whether given more time Rory may well have realised anyway.....
		
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Sorry. Even in the context of this thread, that's just so much rubbish!
		
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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:





doublebogey7 said:



			Is there ? In what way ?
		
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Rory submitted a correct score card with penalty points added Simple Simon didn't add his penalty points on his card, so submitted a incorrect score.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

williamalex1 said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Rory submitted a correct score card with penalty points added Simple Simon didn't add his penalty points on his card, so submitted a incorrect score.
		
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Only because someone pointed out he mistake.

What do you think Dyson would have done if someone had pointed out his mistake ?
		
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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:





doublebogey7 said:



			You're right you don't know - Rory was lucky that Donald pointed it out to him.

No one pointed it out it Dyson so he didn't realise just like Rory didnt realise.
		
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I would suggest that even amongst pros that Rory's offence was a rule less likely to be known than SD's
		
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## El Bandito (Dec 5, 2013)

I just watched the Sky Sports guys Pugh and Roe take a tough line, both using the word cheat. I read the judgement as that he clearly intentionally tapped down the spike mark, he admits he knows that is illegal and therefore is guilty of a breach. The ruling then says that it does not believe the action was premeditated, that there was no intention to cheat...brain fart does seem the mot juste.

as this is Golf, where we really don't want the 'professional' foul to take off, he has been given a dressing down and a fine.

im not sure I see him as having a tarnished reputation, I see him has having made a cock up, been done for it and that's the end of it...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

El Bandito said:



			I just watched the Sky Sports guys Pugh and Roe take a tough line, both using the word cheat. I read the judgement as that he clearly intentionally tapped down the spike mark, he admits he knows that is illegal and therefore is guilty of a breach. The ruling then says that it does not believe the action was premeditated, that there was no intention to cheat...brain fart does seem the mot juste.

as this is Golf, where we really don't want the 'professional' foul to take off, he has been given a dressing down and a fine.

im not sure I see him as having a tarnished reputation, I see him has having made a cock up, been done for it and that's the end of it...
		
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You say his rep isn't tarnished but also mention both Roe and Pugh use the word cheat ?


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## Spuddy (Dec 5, 2013)

Rory admitted himself that he didn't realise it was an error until Donald pointed it out.  Do people seriously think he would have had an epiphany after the fact but before submitting his card?  If one of Dyson's playing partners had spotted his mistake and told him it was a penalty I bet he would have had the same reaction as Rory, i.e. Oops, of course I shouldn't have tapped it down, mark me down for a 2 stroke penalty.


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## El Bandito (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You say his rep isn't tarnished but also mention both Roe and Pugh use the word cheat ?
		
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Fair point. I can only control what I think, and I don't seem him has having cheated...certainly those two gents are comfortable using that word. I just happen to disagree with them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

El Bandito said:



			Fair point. I can only control what I think, and I don't seem him has having cheated...certainly those two gents are comfortable using that word. I just happen to disagree with them.
		
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Yeah understand where you are coming from as well

I certainly don't think he is a cheat but believe he will be tarnished that way - media will start it all off


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:





doublebogey7 said:



			Is there ? In what way ?
		
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Ok lets I'll try once more.   Rory whilst removing sand from the fringe of the green is advised by his playing partner that it is against the rules to do so.  Rory immediately realises his error, having forgot that sand may only be removed from the line of put when on the green, and adds a 2 shot penalty to his score.  We do not know whether Rory would or wouldn't have realised the error before submitting his card has Luke not said anything.  

SD taps down a spike mark in front of his ball when marking it,  spike marks may not be tapped down when on the line in any circumstance.  No one had the time notices,  but SD has a considerable amount of time to realise the error before submitting his card and fails to do so.

Now you may think the differences do not warrant different treatment but there are clear differences between the two.
		
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## El Bandito (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah understand where you are coming from as well

I certainly don't think he is a cheat but believe he will be tarnished that way - media will start it all off
		
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Well, they already have, and we are probably adding fuel to the fire. 

However, I guess that the lasting verdict will be the written statement of the tour (which I found pretty reasonable) and how SDs fellow pros regard him, of which I have heard nothing as yet.


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## rulefan (Dec 5, 2013)

*Simon Dyson*

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=213822.html


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

El Bandito said:



			Well, they already have, and we are probably adding fuel to the fire. 

However, I guess that the lasting verdict will be the written statement of the tour (which I found pretty reasonable) and how SDs fellow pros regard him, of which I have heard nothing as yet.
		
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Well  just heard what both Roe and Pugh have said.

Calling him a cheat and saying he has been found guilty of cheating.


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## garyinderry (Dec 5, 2013)

Spuddy said:



			Rory admitted himself that he didn't realise it was an error until Donald pointed it out.  Do people seriously think he would have had an epiphany after the fact but before submitting his card?  If one of Dyson's playing partners had spotted his mistake and told him it was a penalty I bet he would have had the same reaction as Rory, i.e. Oops, of course I shouldn't have tapped it down, mark me down for a 2 stroke penalty.
		
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agree with this!


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well  just heard what both Roe and Pugh have said.

Calling him a cheat and saying he has been found guilty of cheating.
		
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Er. These are not 'fellow Professionals' imo. Neither is competing in the same Tour as SD.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Er. These are not 'fellow Professionals' imo. Neither is competing in the same Tour as SD.
		
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I never said they were ? 

Well Roe is still a registered pro golfer 

But both a PGA coaches and on national telly are calling him a cheat - it's not looking good for him.


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## Dodger (Dec 5, 2013)

It is a rule that Sunday choppers like you and I all know. 

It is as well known as what happens when you lose a ball.

Yet Dyson still tapped it down.

My opinion is he's a cheat. Just look at his reaction after he did it,he is shifty looking at the best of times but by christ he was fidgeting on speed seconds after the tap down.

He has got lucky with his rap on the knuckles but the fact he is a cheat will linger for life and rightly so.


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## Pistol Peter (Dec 5, 2013)

Dodger said:



			It is a rule that Sunday choppers like you and I all know. 

It is as well known as what happens when you lose a ball.

Yet Dyson still tapped it down.

My opinion is he's a cheat. Just look at his reaction after he did it,he is shifty looking at the best of times but by christ he was fidgeting on speed seconds after the tap down.

He has got lucky with his rap on the knuckles but the fact he is a cheat will linger for life and rightly so.
		
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100% correct, he cheated plain and simple.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

Pistol Peter said:



			100% correct, he cheated plain and simple.
		
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Sorry but not factually correct. 

So it's not plain and simple at all.


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## Spuddy (Dec 5, 2013)

Pistol Peter said:



			100% correct, he cheated plain and simple.
		
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Ok, did Rory cheat as well? By your logic, he must have, the difference being that he was informed before signing his card.


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## Tommo21 (Dec 5, 2013)

Yeh......never changed my opinion. I've never seen that at club level in 40 years.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 5, 2013)

The decision statement is contradictory and/or ambiguous. I can't see whether they decided he cheated or not. 

If they think he did cheat, the penalty is too lenient. If they think he didn't it is too harsh.

Still, if you think the statement: â€œOn becoming a Member each person voluntarily submits himself to standards of behaviour and ethical conduct beyond those required of ordinary golfers and members of the publicâ€  are very important words, instead of the meaningless drivel it is, then perhaps you shouldn't be ruling on anything.


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## garyinderry (Dec 5, 2013)

Could Dyson have fixed that spike mark before he hit his first putt?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			Could Dyson have fixed that spike mark before he hit his first putt?
		
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If it wasn't in his line I believe so but couldn't be sure


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## Colin L (Dec 5, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			Could Dyson have fixed that spike mark before he hit his first putt?
		
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You cannot make a repair on the green (other than to a ball mark or old hole plug) if it might help you in the subsequent play of the hole and since Dyson's putt ended up close to whatever it was he tapped down, the repair was obviously in an area where his next stroke  would have been helped by the repair.  So no he could't have fixed it before the first putt.


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## garyinderry (Dec 5, 2013)

Colin L said:



			You cannot make a repair on the green (other than to a ball mark or old hole plug) if it might help you in the subsequent play of the hole and since Dyson's putt ended up close to whatever it was he tapped down, the repair was obviously in an area where his next stroke  would have been helped by the repair.  So no he could't have fixed it before the first putt.
		
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thanks :thup:


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## williamalex1 (Dec 5, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			Could Dyson have fixed that spike mark before he hit his first putt?
		
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I would have thought that no one can repair any spike marks on the green, until everyone in his game had putted out.


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

I haven't read the whole of this thread, but to me there seems to be two problems with what Dyson did, and I find it difficult to believe both were unintentional mistakes.

Firstly he pushed down a spike mark with his ball. To me a professional golfer would just not do this, it is not a natural act even if his brain had switched off. For arguments sake lets say he did do it accidentally, then secondly he must have realised as soon as he had done it his mistake and should then have called a penalty on himself which he didn't. 

When I watched the video the first time, I noticed the large spike mark as soon as his ball rolled past the hole, and thought it could finish on his line. He must have seen it as he walked up to his ball, so had time to engage his golf brain.

Just my opinion of course.


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## Khamelion (Dec 6, 2013)

Like Richart I've read the entire thread, but having now seen the video on the web, his actions do look intentional and therefore he must suffer the consequences. 

What he was thinking is anyone's guess? But he's been caught by trial by TV, which is probably wrong, but it also begs the question how many others flout the rules when there's no camera's around?


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I haven't read the whole of this thread...
		
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Khamelion said:



			Like Richart I've read the entire thread....
		
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Er. What?!!!


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

I think the impact & wording of the suspension has been overlooked somewhat. As I understand it for the next 18 months he canâ€™t breach any rule of golf without the matter being referred back to the panel

_5. Accordingly, the Panel decided as follows:
(a) to impose upon Mr Dyson a period of suspension from the Tour of two months, but to suspend its operation for a period of 18 months.  The effect of this is that, *if during that 18 month period, Mr Dyson commits any breach of the Rules of Golf, his case will be referred back to the Panel to determine whether in the circumstances the suspension should immediately become effective*. _

He & his caddy are going to have to be on their toes... 

From what I can see many rules of golf have a penalty written in as part of the rule i.e _Ball Moves after Address_ is a one shot penalty but a _breach _of that rule would occur by not adding the penalty. While other _rules of golf_ (like carrying an extra club) only have the penalty applied as a breach of the rule

To put that in perspective with a few examples:
â€¢	If he starts a round with an extra club the matter is referred to the panel to consider if the 2 month suspended ban should be enforced _even if _he put down the correct score + penalty
â€¢	If the caddy lingers too long on the line of putt on the putting green & stroke made, the matter is referred to the panel to consider if the 2 month suspended ban should be enforced _even if_ he put down the correct score + penalty 
â€¢	If he touches the sand in a bunker with his club during address the matter is referred to the panel to consider if the 2 month suspended ban should be enforced _even if _he put down the correct score + penalty
â€¢	It means if he touches the line of his putt again _and _takes the two shot penalty _and _records it on his card _and _signs for the correct score, he will still have the incident referred back to the panel

Notwithstanding that Proâ€™s shouldnâ€™t be doing any of the above they do happen & it must surely add a bit of pressure to a players mental game


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## El Bandito (Dec 6, 2013)

Dodger said:



			It is a rule that Sunday choppers like you and I all know. 

It is as well known as what happens when you lose a ball.

Yet Dyson still tapped it down.

My opinion is he's a cheat. Just look at his reaction after he did it,he is shifty looking at the best of times but by christ he was fidgeting on speed seconds after the tap down.

He has got lucky with his rap on the knuckles but the fact he is a cheat will linger for life and rightly so.
		
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from the statement:

(ii) the fact, as the Panel found, that Mr Dysonâ€™s conduct on the occasion in question involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of cheating; and

That is why I struggle with the definitive statements that he is 'a cheat'. I guess nobody knows what was going on in his head except him and everyone will form their own opinions


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2013)

Slab said:



			I think the impact & wording of the suspension has been overlooked somewhat. As I understand it for the next 18 months he canâ€™t breach any rule of golf without the matter being referred back to the panel

_5. Accordingly, the Panel decided as follows:
(a) to impose upon Mr Dyson a period of suspension from the Tour of two months, but to suspend its operation for a period of 18 months.  The effect of this is that, *if during that 18 month period, Mr Dyson commits any breach of the Rules of Golf, his case will be referred back to the Panel to determine whether in the circumstances the suspension should immediately become effective*. _

He & his caddy are going to have to be on their toes... 

From what I can see many rules of golf have a penalty written in as part of the rule i.e _Ball Moves after Address_ is a one shot penalty but a _breach _of that rule would occur by not adding the penalty. While other _rules of golf_ (like carrying an extra club) only have the penalty applied as a breach of the rule

To put that in perspective with a few examples:
â€¢	If he starts a round with an extra club the matter is referred to the panel to consider if the 2 month suspended ban should be enforced _even if _he put down the correct score + penalty
â€¢	If the caddy lingers too long on the line of putt on the putting green & stroke made, the matter is referred to the panel to consider if the 2 month suspended ban should be enforced _even if_ he put down the correct score + penalty 
â€¢	If he touches the sand in a bunker with his club during address the matter is referred to the panel to consider if the 2 month suspended ban should be enforced _even if _he put down the correct score + penalty
â€¢	It means if he touches the line of his putt again _and _takes the two shot penalty _and _records it on his card _and _signs for the correct score, he will still have the incident referred back to the panel

Notwithstanding that Proâ€™s shouldnâ€™t be doing any of the above they do happen & it must surely add a bit of pressure to a players mental game
		
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I would think that he is entitled to breach the rules of golf but not to overlook it, so to need pulling up later *if*]someone reports him later, after all, every player breaks the rules at some stage during the season


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

*Simon Dyson was found guilty of cheating by the European Tourâ€™s disciplinary panel on Thursday....*

Can you believe the opening line of the Daily Mails reporting of the story!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Slab said:



*Simon Dyson was found guilty of cheating by the European Tourâ€™s disciplinary panel on Thursday....*

Can you believe the opening line of the Daily Mails reporting of the story!!
		
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That's exactly the line they were using last night on Sky Sports

It's not factually correct but it makes a better headline

This is going you ruin him


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's exactly the line they were using last night on Sky Sports

It's not factually correct but it makes a better headline

This is going you ruin him
		
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Yeah they seem to be using it as a case of not _premeditated cheating_ but still cheating

i.e all premeditated cheating is cheating but not all cheating is premeditated...but I'm not sure that works


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## Tommo21 (Dec 6, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			I would have thought that no one can repair any spike marks on the green, until everyone in his game had putted out.
		
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Thats the way I always play it.


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## Colin L (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			Thats the way I always play it.
		
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That's the safest way, although not a requirement.  Say you had just putted from a distance and everyone else was within a few feet of the hole, there would be no problem with your repairing a spike mark where you were as it would be so far away from the hole that noone would end up there, even with an overshoot.


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## Wildrover (Dec 6, 2013)

I shall not be issuing any apologies to anybody over my earlier comments in this thread. I stated I had heard that things didn't look good for him, and although he escaped an outright ban, the damage has been done to his reputation and that will never go away. Regardless of whether his actions were pre-meditated or not, he was not found to be totally innocent, therefore there is a proportion of guilt attributable to him according to the disciplinary panel. The stigma of this will be with him for the rest of his career. What would you think about someone at your club who the committee had penalised for this offence, what would his reputation be within the club? In that respect the punishment handed out was tough.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Wildrover said:



			I shall not be issuing any apologies to anybody over my earlier comments in this thread. I stated I had heard that things didn't look good for him, and although he escaped an outright ban, the damage has been done to his reputation and that will never go away. Regardless of whether his actions were pre-meditated or not, he was not found to be totally innocent, therefore there is a proportion of guilt attributable to him according to the disciplinary panel. The stigma of this will be with him for the rest of his career. What would you think about someone at your club who the committee had penalised for this offence, what would his reputation be within the club? In that respect the punishment handed out was tough.
		
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Yes he was guilty of breaking the code of conduct expected by the ET, that doesn't make him a cheat, it means he made a stupid mistake.

If someone at my club had done this once by mistake, I'd accept it for what it was, a mistake. There are unfortunately too many people who want to castigate others for simple mistakes, which is fine for anyone who has never made an honest mistake but for the other 100%, it doesn't reflect well.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Slab said:



			Yeah they seem to be using it as a case of not _premeditated cheating_ but still cheating

i.e all premeditated cheating is cheating but not all cheating is premeditated...but I'm not sure that works 

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A cheat is someone who deliberately violates the rules, Simon Dyson didn't deliberately violate the rules, he is therefore not a cheat.


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## Matty (Dec 6, 2013)

This whole fiasco has me bewildered.

The official tour statement states (in summary):
- On this occasion it seems they say he deliberately touched the line of his putt, despite knowing the rules, with the purpose of improving his position.
- This was not premeditated cheating

These two statement seem very contradictory to me. The first is basically saying he cheated then the second is saying he did not plan to cheat.

His punishment to date is a DQ, a fine and costs of Â£37,500 and a suspended ban of 2 months. In addition he will have this label of cheat hanging over him forever. It all seems quite bizarre to me.


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			A cheat is someone who deliberately violates the rules, Simon Dyson didn't deliberately violate the rules, he is therefore not a cheat.
		
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I agree with that (& I think most would) which is why the DM's viewpoint confused me


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## Tommo21 (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			A cheat is someone who deliberately violates the rules, Simon Dyson didn't deliberately violate the rules, he is therefore not a cheat.
		
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That is funny..............if he didnt know what he done wrong then he sure does now.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Matty said:



			This whole fiasco has me bewildered.

The official tour statement states (in summary):
- On this occasion it seems they say he deliberately touched the line of his putt, despite knowing the rules, with the purpose of improving his position.
- This was not premeditated cheating

These two statement seem very contradictory to me. The first is basically saying he cheated then the second is saying he did not plan to cheat.

His punishment to date is a DQ, a fine and costs of Â£37,500 and a suspended ban of 2 months. In addition he will have this label of cheat hanging over him forever. It all seems quite bizarre to me.
		
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The first is saying he broke the rules, the second is saying he didn't cheat. You can break the rules and not be a cheat. As said earlier, Rory broke the rules when he brushed sand off the fringe, if Luke hadn't pointed it out, he wouldn't have realised his mistake, does that make him a cheat as well?


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## Tommo21 (Dec 6, 2013)

Colin L said:



			That's the safest way, although not a requirement.  Say you had just putted from a distance and everyone else was within a few feet of the hole, there would be no problem with your repairing a spike mark where you were as it would be so far away from the hole that noone would end up there, even with an overshoot.
		
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Yes........


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

Matty said:



			This whole fiasco has me bewildered.

The official tour statement states (in summary):
- On this occasion it seems they say he deliberately touched the line of his putt, despite knowing the rules, with the purpose of improving his position.
- This was not premeditated cheating

These two statement seem very contradictory to me. The first is basically saying he cheated then the second is saying he did not plan to cheat.

His punishment to date is a DQ, a fine and costs of Â£37,500 and a suspended ban of 2 months. In addition he will have this label of cheat hanging over him forever. It all seems quite bizarre to me.
		
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I think what they're saying is that while he had prior knowledge of that rule (& others) it wasn't a deliberate or premeditated act to not apply the rule to his actions at that time


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## Tommo21 (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			A cheat is someone who deliberately violates the rules, Simon Dyson didn't deliberately violate the rules, he is therefore not a cheat.
		
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Take two.............SD putts past the hole..........he markes his ball........then taps down a mark in front of his ball.


He would need to see that mark, it would need to registar in his brain as he was marking or about to mark. He would need to decide to cheat by tapping it down. You can take this apart then put it together again all day long, but he tried to cheat by breaking the rules that every golfer knows. 

If that was not deliberate then I never posted this on here.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			Take two.............SD putts past the hole..........he markes his ball........then taps down a mark in front of his ball.


He would need to see that mark, it would need to registar in his brain as he was marking or about to mark. He would need to decide to cheat by tapping it down. You can take this appart then put it together again all day long, but he tried to cheat by breaking the rules that every golfer knows. 

If that was not deliberate then I never posted this on here.
		
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Have you never heard of subconcious actions or reflexes, have you never ever in your life done something without realising you were doing it or without thinking? If you can answer no to those things then you're a robot.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 6, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok lets I'll try once more.   Rory whilst removing sand from the fringe of the green is advised by his playing partner that it is against the rules to do so.  Rory immediately realises his error, having forgot that sand may only be removed from the line of put when on the green, and adds a 2 shot penalty to his score.  We do not know whether Rory would or wouldn't have realised the error before submitting his card has Luke not said anything.  

SD taps down a spike mark in front of his ball when marking it,  spike marks may not be tapped down when on the line in any circumstance.  No one had the time notices,  but SD has a considerable amount of time to realise the error before submitting his card and fails to do so.

Now you may think the differences do not warrant different treatment but there are clear differences between the two.
		
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What a load of garbage. If I understand you correctly you are saying that Rory did something that he is not allowed to do in any circumstance (brushing sand off his line when not on the green) and Dyson did something that he is not allowed to do in any circumstance (touched the line of his putt/repaired a spike mark). They both broke one of the the fundamental rules of golf. The only clear difference between the two are that Rory got told he'd broken the rules and added the penalty and Dyson didn't.

Could it be that Rory is one of the big names of golf so gets different treatment from the not so famous guys? Just like the young Asian player getting a one shot penalty for slow play at the Masters. He was an easier target that one of the big names.

EDIT - Apologies to Liverpoolphil, don't know why that quote has come up as yours when it should have been Doublebogey's.
		
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## Wildrover (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Yes he was guilty of breaking the code of conduct expected by the ET, that doesn't make him a cheat, it means he made a stupid mistake.

If someone at my club had done this once by mistake, I'd accept it for what it was, a mistake. There are unfortunately too many people who want to castigate others for simple mistakes, which is fine for anyone who has never made an honest mistake but for the other 100%, it doesn't reflect well.
		
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I agree, and I like to think I would have the same attitude to someone at my own club. My point was to those who thought I needed to apologise for saying that I'd heard he would be dealt with severely, imho he was dealt with severely, something I take no pleasure in at all as I think he has been hung out to dry for a pretty basic mistake.


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

â€¢	Ever used salt instead of sugar?
â€¢	Ever hit the wipers when you meant to indicate?
â€¢	Ever made a typo on a forum post?
â€¢	Ever open the fridge when you wanted something out the freezer?

These are all things (mistakes) we do on autopilot & I wonâ€™t even try to list the ones weâ€™ve all done at work day in day out 

The guy has lifted 10â€™s of thousands of balls from a putting green (at work) and on this occasion he made a mistake

The Q is whether he did it deliberately (with awareness) and at what point he became aware (he says when he saw the footage) 

At a televised sporting event I canâ€™t see how some could suggest it was deliberate and those trying to say he looks shifty are better than I at reading a strangers body language because once itâ€™s tapped down you only see him from behind


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## Tommo21 (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Have you never heard of subconcious actions or reflexes, have you never ever in your life done something without realising you were doing it or without thinking? If you can answer no to those things then you're a robot.
		
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He still cheated...........he didnt just tap any bit down, he tapped the spike mark..............if that was subconcious then he's thick.

Oh, I broke the rules, a rule that we all know, but I happen to have a subconcious reflex because I seen the spike mark and I didnt want to miss the putt. 

Okay thats sarcastic...........but you can give him the benefit of the doubt, Iâ€™m not.


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			He still cheated...........he didnt just tap any bit down, he tapped the spike mark..............if that was subconcious then he's thick.

Oh, I broke the rules, a rule that we all know, but I happen to have a subconcious reflex because I seen the spike mark and I didnt want to miss the putt. 

Okay thats sarcastic...........but you can give him the benefit of the doubt, Iâ€™m not.
		
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But Tommo the guy has tapped down countless spike marks in his golfing life, so its not as if its an unusual act, in this case its just the order in which he did it that caused the mistake (in relation to putting out I mean)


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			He still cheated...........he didnt just tap any bit down, he tapped the spike mark..............if that was subconcious then he's thick.

Oh, I broke the rules, a rule that we all know, but I happen to have a subconcious reflex because I seen the spike mark and I didnt want to miss the putt. 

Okay thats sarcastic...........*but you can give him the benefit of the doubt, Iâ€™m not.*

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That much has been clear from the start.


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			He still cheated...........he didnt just tap any bit down, he tapped the spike mark..............if that was subconcious then he's thick.

Oh, I broke the rules, a rule that we all know, but I happen to have a subconcious reflex because I seen the spike mark and I didnt want to miss the putt. 

Okay thats sarcastic...........but you can give him the benefit of the doubt, Iâ€™m not.
		
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It's a rule that is stuck in the mind too. Many people see it as an unfair rule so it stays on the mind.

If he did it subconsciously, I'd be very surprised if he never realised immediately almost as though he'd had an electric shock.

I've thrown a coin down and marked my ball on the fringe once before, almost dropped the ball as I picked it up knowing that I'd had that brain fart.

The more this incident is shown, the more it appears to be a conscious effort.

But...........only ONE person knows for absolutely sure.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Robobum said:



			It's a rule that is stuck in the mind too. Many people see it as an unfair rule so it stays on the mind.

If he did it subconsciously, I'd be very surprised if he never realised immediately almost as though he'd had an electric shock.

I've thrown a coin down and marked my ball on the fringe once before, almost dropped the ball as I picked it up knowing that I'd had that brain fart.

The more this incident is shown, the more it appears to be a conscious effort.

But...........only ONE person knows for absolutely sure.
		
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And he says he didn't realise until he was shown the replay, so unless we're calling him a liar now as well, that should be that.


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			And he says he didn't realise until he was shown the replay, so unless we're calling him a liar now as well, that should be that.
		
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As per last line - only ONE person knows for sure. No mater how hard anyone protests his innocence or otherwise.


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## JCW (Dec 6, 2013)

Sometimes you so into the moment or in the zone as they say you just are not aware of what you just done as your mind is on your next shot or other things but only he knows that ,  has there been any other incidents in the past ? but to call him a cheat is a big call and the Tour as acted and the matter is now closed but others will watch him and he will always have that now and has to live with that , Gary Player was called as well in years gone by , like I sais sometimes you so in the zone you cant remember your actions , that's my take on it and if it does happen again then he will be finished ....................EYG


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

Can we agree that tapping down spike marks and imperfections is not only allowed itâ€™s positively encouraged?

Can we agree that in itself itâ€™s a completely natural and instinctive thing for a pro to do? 

That itâ€™s done on every course every day of every week... The only stipulation is to do it after putting out  

Is it not then possible (even just using the law of averages) that at some point someone somewhere was going to make a genuine mistake and tap down _before _putting out 
_(perhaps when distracted after missing a putt well past the hole just 7 or 8 seconds before)_ 

Does the above not seem more plausible than a deliberate act of cheating in front of FCâ€™s, caddies, TV cameras, officials, spectators etc etc? 

As for when he was aware? well as Robobum says only he knows that truth and given what I _actually know/have seen_ it's not enough for me to call him a liar


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## Tommo21 (Dec 6, 2013)

Slab said:



			But Tommo the guy has tapped down countless spike marks in his golfing life, so its not as if its an unusual act, in this case its just the order in which he did it that caused the mistake (in relation to putting out I mean)
		
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That is funny...........You don't honestly think he got the order mixed up. I mean he didnt pick up his ball then mark it. 

Stop making excuses for him. People with much better knowledge, experience and wisdom have him sussed.


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## Birchy (Dec 6, 2013)

Looking at the replays it looks really bad to me. I cant see how he can explain it as a brain fart or whatever. Hes looking in the direction of the ball all the way as he walks up to it. He looks pretty deliberate when pressing this thing down and just look at how quick he looks around to see if he had been busted. Very twitchy looking as he walked away too.

Nobody can say for certain if he did it on purpose or not but for me if I had to decide looking at the replay I would say he was trying to pull a fast one imo. I initially defended him but his body language just isn't right on the replay, not natural at all.


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Looking at the replays it looks really bad to me. I cant see how he can explain it as a brain fart or whatever. Hes looking in the direction of the ball all the way as he walks up to it. He looks pretty deliberate when pressing this thing down and just look at how quick he looks around to see if he had been busted. Very twitchy looking as he walked away too.

Nobody can say for certain if he did it on purpose or not but for me if I had to decide looking at the replay I would say he was trying to pull a fast one imo. I initially defended him but his body language just isn't right on the replay, not natural at all.
		
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He's a very twitchy person anyway to be fair.


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			That is funny...........*You don't honestly think he got the order mixed up.* I mean he didnt pick up his ball then mark it. 

Stop making excuses for him. People with much better knowledge, experience and wisdom have him sussed.
		
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Re my bold: no I don't think he _*deliberately *_mixed up the order, I think that when he did it he wasn't aware that he'd mixed up the order

Quote: _"People with much better knowledge, experience and wisdom have him sussed" _

Was going to reply to this but I'll leave personal aspersions out of it as we have a good debate going here...


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2013)

You can make up your mind to go out and murder someone or you can have a mental aberration and murder someone in a split second - the offence in a court room is either murder or manslaughter. Intent to do something against the rules/law is always penalised harsher, I can't personally believe that SD would have decided that the rules didn't apply to him so he'd ignore them and do what he wanted. If SD is a cheat, so is Rory and also most of us, we all break the rules and a lot of people don't even know they have - they are not cheats.

This does not make him a cheat


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			You can make up your mind to go out and murder someone or you can have a mental aberration and murder someone in a split second - the offence in a court room is either murder or manslaughter. Intent to do something against the rules/law is always penalised harsher, I can't personally believe that SD would have decided that the rules didn't apply to him so he'd ignore them and do what he wanted. If SD is a cheat, so is Rory and also most of us, we all break the rules and a lot of people don't even know they have - they are not cheats.

This does not make him a cheat
		
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Agree. No one but SD knows if it was deliberate cheating or not. So, we've all got a choice to make. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and let it pass. Today seems like a day for forgiveness not pettyness....


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2013)

I think it was just a mental aberration, nothing premeditated. 
"Dyson was investigated for a rules infraction committed during the 2009 Portuguese Open. He was penalized two strokes under Rule 13-2 (â€œImproving Lie, Area of Intended Swing or Stance, or Line of Playâ€) after being deemed to have improved his stance after his ball ended up at the base of a bush. The 15-man tournament committee considered the breach serious enough to discuss it at a committee meeting. The committee consulted John Paramor, the European Tourâ€™s chief referee, but no further action was taken. Although the incident was caught on video, officials determined that the camera angle did not provide conclusive evidence that Dyson intentionally had sought to gain an advantage."
The above is the only other infringement he has been accused of that I have found. I personally think this is a tough rule to actually police accurately, I think many people inadvertently break it ... 

I don't think he is a cheat and nor would I label him a cheat. I think his punishment and fine are too much, being DQ'd is enough in my opinion and a brief explanation to the player as to why.


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## Tommo21 (Dec 6, 2013)

I personally think this is a tough rule to actually police accurately, I think many people inadvertently break it ... 

You think people do it............as I've said before, I've never seen it in 40 years of comp golf.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			You think people do it............as I've said before, I've never seen it in 40 years of comp golf.
		
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Tommo21 said:



			Do you watch everything your playing partners do...........
		
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Tommo21 said:



			Total tosh.............
		
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Maybe you keep missing it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Robobum said:



			As per last line - only ONE person knows for sure. No mater how hard anyone protests his innocence or otherwise.
		
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and golf should be a game of golf , trust and integrity - if people start doubting that then golf will start to go down the route of other sports.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			That is funny...........You don't honestly think he got the order mixed up. I mean he didnt pick up his ball then mark it. 

Stop making excuses for him. People with much better knowledge, experience and wisdom have him sussed.
		
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Have him sussed ?! 

Who exactly has him sussed ? 

Have we lost now at heart what is so good at golf when people start to question golfers actions ?


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			and golf should be a game of golf , trust and integrity - if people start doubting that then golf will start to go down the route of other sports.
		
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Overuse of the word golf in one sentence will ruin the game


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I haven't read the whole of this thread, but to me there seems to be two problems with what Dyson did, and I find it difficult to believe both were unintentional mistakes.

Firstly he pushed down a spike mark with his ball. To me a professional golfer would just not do this, it is not a natural act even if his brain had switched off. For arguments sake lets say he did do it accidentally, then secondly he must have realised as soon as he had done it his mistake and should then have called a penalty on himself which he didn't. 

When I watched the video the first time, I noticed the large spike mark as soon as his ball rolled past the hole, and thought it could finish on his line. He must have seen it as he walked up to his ball, so had time to engage his golf brain.

Just my opinion of course.
		
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For all those that think it was just an accident, please reply to the above.

Once you have marked your ball you naturally pick it up, not start to push the ground down with it. When you have repaired a pitchmark, you use your putter to tap down the ground, not your golf ball. 

I don't see that this incident compares with someone not knowing a rule, and so breaking it. That is ignorance, Simon Dyson must know the rules regarding spike marks, as he comes across them on every hole he plays, most days of the week.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Overuse of the word golf in one sentence will ruin the game
		
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I don't even know what word I should have used instead of the second golf


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			For all those that think it was just an accident, please reply to the above.

Once you have marked your ball you naturally pick it up, not start to push the ground down with it. When you have repaired a pitchmark, you use your putter to tap down the ground, not your golf ball. 

I don't see that this incident compares with someone not knowing a rule, and so breaking it. That is ignorance, Simon Dyson must know the rules regarding spike marks, as he comes across them on every hole he plays, most days of the week.
		
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Have you never done something without realising until someone points out what you have done.

The brain and mind is a complex thing and at times we have all done something that is hard to explain

That to me is what Dyson did - something without thinking properly because his mind was prob elsewhere and he didn't realise until someone pointed it out to him. Then he as horrified by it - and correctly penalised himself for his mistake.

The reason why i believe that is because I have trust in fellow golfers because I believe they all know it's a game of self policing and act with honesty and integrity


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			and golf should be a game of golf , trust and integrity - if people start doubting that then golf will start to go down the route of other sports.
		
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 But unfortunately there have been cheats in the game. Should we just ignore what they do ? Surely by banning the cheats we are keeping the integrity of the game in tact.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			For all those that think it was just an accident, please reply to the above.

Once you have marked your ball you naturally pick it up, not start to push the ground down with it. When you have repaired a pitchmark, you use your putter to tap down the ground, not your golf ball. 

I don't see that this incident compares with someone not knowing a rule, and so breaking it. That is ignorance, Simon Dyson must know the rules regarding spike marks, as he comes across them on every hole he plays, most days of the week.
		
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I think everything has been said already and the ET have said that they do not believe he deliberately cheated. IMHO that should be the end of it, unfortunately however, it won't be as some are seemingly determined to out him as a cheat.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			But unfortunately there have been cheats in the game. Should we just ignore what they do ? Surely by banning the cheats we are keeping the integrity of the game in tact.
		
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Yes there have been cheats - but you have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they are indeed cheating


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes there have been cheats - but you have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they are indeed cheating
		
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You mean deciding he looks a bit twitchy isn't enough?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You mean deciding he looks a bit twitchy isn't enough?
		
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Well it could if you have OJ Simpsons jury


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes there have been cheats - but you have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they are indeed cheating
		
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  But the defence in this case, assuming we all agree what he did is wrong, is that he didn't realise he did it. Not sure that defence would stand up in many courts. I have never seen a similar incident in my time of playing and watching golf. Tapping down spike marks with putters yes, but the ball ? Hope I am wrong, but I can only comment on what I saw.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You mean deciding he looks a bit twitchy isn't enough?
		
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He was twitchy? Well that seals it for me. I've always thought his eyes were a bit squinty too. And all that blonde hair is a dead giveaway.. Hang 'im, he deserves it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			But the defence in this case, assuming we all agree what he did is wrong, is that he didn't realise he did it. Not sure that defence would stand up in many courts. I have never seen a similar incident in my time of playing and watching golf. Tapping down spike marks with putters yes, but the ball ? Hope I am wrong, but I can only comment on what I saw.
		
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Plenty of golfers have made mistakes and not realised it on the golf course ?

Are they cheats as well ? When Rory brushed the sand or when Woods made the drop or when Monty moved the sign or when he replaced the ball wrong after a storm delay ? 

They all broke a rule but didn't realise it


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2013)

I played the back 9 on the brabazon with simon dyson and he pulled me up for teeing off infront of the markers!  If only I get to see him again:lol:


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## JCW (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't think he cheated , I just think it was a spur of the moment thing , he done it and walked off , he did not look around to see if he had been spotted and no one else other then TV viewers saw it , Anyway to cheat is to gain an advantage to win , he still had to make that putt coming back and he did improve his line for that there is no doubt and its against the rules , he is guilty of that for sure as for intention to cheat , no one bar him knows for sure 100% that he intended to do that , but he has to now got live with that no matter what and that is plenty enough punishment in my book ................EYG


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Plenty of golfers have made mistakes and not realised it on the golf course ?

Are they cheats as well ? When Rory brushed the sand or when Woods made the drop or when Monty moved the sign or when he replaced the ball wrong after a storm delay ? 

They all broke a rule but didn't realise it
		
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 True, but I think they were all through ignorance of the rule. Tiger admitted in his interview that he dropped further back. If he was trying to cheat I think he might have kept quiet. Rory was hardly trying to clear the sand without anyone seeing him. Cheats tend to try and do it without being seen. Can't comment on Monty as I didn't see that one. To me cheating means deliberately breaking a rule you know, not breaking one you don't. Spike marks appear on every green so are a rule we all deal with on a regular basis.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2013)

The Monty one is the interesting one. It would be hard to argue that he wasn't aware that he had improved his lie in the bunker. His stance was much improved when play restarted. Sandy Lyle and Darren Clarke made their views perfectly clear. I'm not sure whether Monty and Sandy are friends yet. Is Monty a cheat? I don't know for certain, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, in the same way I've given SD the benefit...


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			True, but I think they were all through ignorance of the rule. Tiger admitted in his interview that he dropped further back. If he was trying to cheat I think he might have kept quiet. *Rory was hardly trying to clear the sand without anyone seeing him. Cheats tend to try and do it without being seen*. Can't comment on Monty as I didn't see that one. To me cheating means deliberately breaking a rule you know, not breaking one you don't. Spike marks appear on every green so are a rule we all deal with on a regular basis.
		
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You think Dyson was trying not to be seen, right next to the hole while in contention during one of the R2D Final series events covered on live TV? 

EDIT: Rory's wasn't ignorance of the rule, he knew the rule but said he wasn't thinking clearly and made a mistake


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## Fish (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			Cheats tend to try and do it without being seen..
		
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Like a Tiger in the bushes


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You think Dyson was trying not to be seen, right next to the hole while in contention during one of the R2D Final series events covered on live TV? 

EDIT: Rory's wasn't ignorance of the rule, he knew the rule but said he wasn't thinking clearly and made a mistake
		
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Simon would have to be some kind of brain dead retard if he thought " I know, i'm gonna improve my line, no one will suspect a thing".  I agree with you hawkeye


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			True, but I think they were all through ignorance of the rule. Tiger admitted in his interview that he dropped further back. If he was trying to cheat I think he might have kept quiet. Rory was hardly trying to clear the sand without anyone seeing him. Cheats tend to try and do it without being seen. Can't comment on Monty as I didn't see that one. To me cheating means deliberately breaking a rule you know, not breaking one you don't. Spike marks appear on every green so are a rule we all deal with on a regular basis.
		
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Dyson did it in full view of the cameras during one of the biggest comps in the calendar year ! There was no hiding and he would have known the cameras were on him. 

Rory knew about the the rule and the sand 


Monty knew that the signs were immovable objects and relief was to be taken.

He didn't deliberately break a rule IMO just like Rory didn't - they both just weren't thinking properly at the time.


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You think Dyson was trying not to be seen, right next to the hole while in contention during one of the R2D Final series events covered on live TV? 

EDIT: Rory's wasn't ignorance of the rule, he knew the rule but said he wasn't thinking clearly and made a mistake
		
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 Sorry how did he know the cameras were on him ? They don't cover every shot, let alone everyone marking their ball. He also tapped the spike mark down pretty quickly as he marked and picked up his ball. Blink and you would miss it. It was only picked up by a viewer after the event. Nobody at the time noticed it, so you could say he was unlucky to be caught.

My point is though that I personally, in my opinion, don't think a professional golfer would do what he did with the ball. But giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did, I think, in my opinion, that he would have realised as soon as he had done it and held his hands up. His brain must have been totally disengaged,which is strange for a professional golfer playing in such a big tournament.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			Sorry how did he know the cameras were on him ? They don't cover every shot, let alone everyone marking their ball. He also tapped the spike mark down pretty quickly as he marked and picked up his ball. Blink and you would miss it. It was only picked up by a viewer after the event. Nobody at the time noticed it, so you could say he was unlucky to be caught.

My point is though that I personally, in my opinion, don't think a professional golfer would do what he did with the ball. But giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did, I think, in my opinion, that he would have realised as soon as he had done it and held his hands up. His brain must have been totally disengaged,which is strange for a professional golfer playing in such a big tournament.
		
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They have a camera on every single hole for the big tournaments now. 

And I think he was just focused on qualifying because he was close to missing out on the big event


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They have a camera on every single hole for the big tournaments now. 

And I think he was just focused on qualifying because he was close to missing out on the big event
		
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 I do think that some sportsman do forget they are on camera. Mike Atherton, and the dirt in his pocket spring to mind.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I do think that some sportsman do forget they are on camera. Mike Atherton, and the dirt in his pocket spring to mind.

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Yes they d because they get in a zone - the same zone that might make them make a mistake


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2013)

At the end of the day, regardless of our own, personal opinions, the European Tour decided he was not guilty of cheating - that much is said in the ruling and is backed up by the fact that his ban wouldn't be suspended if they thought he did cheat.
Everyone agree on that..?
Good....

Anyone calling him a Cheat anywhere, on here, on TV, in the papers or wherever is opening themselves up to a lawsuit and had better have some proof to back up their potentially libelous or slanderous comments..The ET held an inquiry and decreed that SD is NOT a Cheat - should be the end of it unless SD gets the Lawyers onto the likes of Roe, Pugh and the Mail.


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

I read that the ET adjudged that he deliberately tapped down a spike mark on the line of his putt, in the full knowledge he was breaking Rule 16-1a of the rules of golf, with the purpose of improving his position on the green.:mmm:

Interesting wording for someone that is not a cheat.:mmm: Seems to rule out a brain fart whatever that is.


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

Imurg said:



			At the end of the day, regardless of our own, personal opinions, the European Tour decided he was not guilty of cheating - that much is said in the ruling and is backed up by the fact that his ban wouldn't be suspended if they thought he did cheat.
Everyone agree on that..?
Good....

Anyone calling him a Cheat anywhere, on here, on TV, in the papers or wherever is opening themselves up to a lawsuit and had better have some proof to back up their potentially libelous or slanderous comments..The ET held an inquiry and decreed that SD is NOT a Cheat - should be the end of it unless SD gets the Lawyers onto the likes of Roe, Pugh and the Mail.
		
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Add me to that list ... I was watching it when he cheated and everything that wouldn't break my flat screen got chucked at it. My feelings got worse when he failed to report his balls up, I hope he gets it tight.


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I read that the ET adjudged that he deliberately tapped down a spike mark on the line of his putt, in the full knowledge he was breaking Rule 16-1a of the rules of golf, with the purpose of improving his position on the green.:mmm:

Interesting wording for someone that is not a cheat.:mmm: Seems to rule out a brain fart whatever that is.
		
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I think the choice of words explains why this hearing took so long to be formed and why a top sports barrister was engaged to oversee.

An exercise in how to call somebody a name without ever using that name


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			Add me to that list ... I was watching it when he cheated and everything that wouldn't break my flat screen got chucked at it. My feelings got worse when he failed to report his balls up, I hope he gets it tight.
		
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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 8377

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lol ... You've lost me there Geezer but yeah I'm being serious.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2013)

To me the whole thing is simple to reconcile:  There are many things in the rules of golf that carry penalties, if you break one of these rules then you receive the appropriate penalty and thats the end of it.   There are other things not clearly defined in the rules that if carried out in a manner to give an unfair advantage would be considered as not just breaking rules but 'cheating'  I hate to even use the word!    These things would be the likes of 'dropping another ball down your trouser leg', 'kicking a ball out from behind a tree', 'improving the lie of your ball by pressing your foot down behind it' etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			lol ... You've lost me there Geezer but yeah I'm being serious.
		
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It's the use of the word "cheated" 

Did you think the same with any other player who has broken a rule whilst you watched. ?


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			To me the whole thing is simple to reconcile:  There are many things in the rules of golf that carry penalties, if you break one of these rules then you receive the appropriate penalty and thats the end of it.   There are other things not clearly defined in the rules that if carried out in a manner to give an unfair advantage would be considered as not just breaking rules but 'cheating'  I hate to even use the word!    These things would be the likes of 'dropping another ball down your trouser leg', 'kicking a ball out from behind a tree', 'improving the lie of your ball by pressing your foot down behind it' etc.
		
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You forgot to add ... and to press down spike marks on your line.  :thup:

I don't know what that Imurg guy is getting his kickers in a twist about, you can't get more blatant.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			You forgot to add ... and to press down spike marks on your line.  :thup:

I don't know what that Imurg guy is getting his kickers in a twist about, you can't get more blatant.
		
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So you think it's that blatent so why didn't the find him guilty of cheating then ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Imurg said:



			At the end of the day, regardless of our own, personal opinions, the European Tour decided he was not guilty of cheating - that much is said in the ruling and is backed up by the fact that his ban wouldn't be suspended if they thought he did cheat.
Everyone agree on that..?
Good....

Anyone calling him a Cheat anywhere, on here, on TV, in the papers or wherever is opening themselves up to a lawsuit and had better have some proof to back up their potentially libelous or slanderous comments..The ET held an inquiry and decreed that SD is NOT a Cheat - should be the end of it unless SD gets the Lawyers onto the likes of Roe, Pugh and the Mail.
		
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:thup:


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			I don't know what that Imurg guy is getting his kickers in a twist about, you can't get more blatant.
		
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Believe me, my "kickers" are perfectly straight.
Branding someone a cheat has far reaching consequences.
The European Tour stopped short of branding Dyson a cheat - that is clearly indicated in the ruling.
What part of that don't you understand..?
Our opinions are just that - opinions.
If the Tour felt that SD had cheated wouldn't they have said that clearly in the ruling..?
Have they called him a Cheat..?
I think you'll find that they haven't.
And branding someone a cheat can lead to legal action - tell me I'm wrong.


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's the use of the word "cheated" 

Did you think the same with any other player who has broken a rule whilst you watched. ?
		
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The only other one that I watched was Tiger when he took that drop after hitting a tee shot ... Geesus he was miles away from where he should've been and yep, that was cheating. The Tours should issue that guy with a compass and a Geography lesson, I'm guessing that he can draw straight lines.

What do you call cheating in Liverpool? Up here cheating's cheating and there's not one golfer amongst us that thinks they should get away with it, or is there?


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Believe me, my "kickers" are perfectly straight.
Branding someone a cheat has far reaching consequences.
The European Tour stopped short of branding Dyson a cheat - that is clearly indicated in the ruling.
What part of that don't you understand..?
Our opinions are just that - opinions.
If the Tour felt that SD had cheated wouldn't they have said that clearly in the ruling..?
Have they called him a Cheat..?
I think you'll find that they haven't.
And branding someone a cheat can lead to legal action - tell me I'm wrong.
		
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How can it be wrong to brand a cheat a cheat? Dyson has got away with murder (just an expression) ... Are you a Lawyer? Got inside info? Been close to someone that cheats? I'm reading your opinion and others that's all and it was knicker's, my error lol

It all needs to stop ... Both Tours should be telling these guys that they adhere to the RANDA Book or their @ss is on the line.


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Believe me, my "kickers" are perfectly straight.
Branding someone a cheat has far reaching consequences.
The European Tour stopped short of branding Dyson a cheat - that is clearly indicated in the ruling.
What part of that don't you understand..?
Our opinions are just that - opinions.
If the Tour felt that SD had cheated wouldn't they have said that clearly in the ruling..?
Have they called him a Cheat..?
I think you'll find that they haven't.
And branding someone a cheat can lead to legal action - tell me I'm wrong.
		
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If I (or anyone else) view that footage and conclude that it looks as though he has cheated and share that view anywhere, I'd be shocked if legal action could stick.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			The only other one that I watched was Tiger when he took that drop after hitting a tee shot ... Geesus he was miles away from where he should've been and yep, that was cheating. The Tours should issue that guy with a compass and a Geography lesson, I'm guessing that he can draw straight lines.

What do you call cheating in Liverpool? Up here cheating's cheating and there's not one golfer amongst us that thinks they should get away with it, or is there?
		
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If Tiger cheated, which means he deliberately and knowingly broke a rule, why would he admit it in an interview?

EDIT: I see I got the situation you were talking about mixed up, you're talking about the one where his FC told him where he thought he should drop


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			The only other one that I watched was Tiger when he took that drop after hitting a tee shot ... Geesus he was miles away from where he should've been and yep, that was cheating. The Tours should issue that guy with a compass and a Geography lesson, I'm guessing that he can draw straight lines.

What do you call cheating in Liverpool? Up here cheating's cheating and there's not one golfer amongst us that thinks they should get away with it, or is there?
		
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Get away with what. ?

No one has got anyway with anything 

People make mistakes on a golf course - incorrect drops etc but it's not "cheating"

Unless you haven't ever made a mistake on a golf course and broken a rule


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			You forgot to add ... and to press down spike marks on your line.  :thup:

I don't know what that Imurg guy is getting his kickers in a twist about, you can't get more blatant.
		
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So is Rory a cheat for brushing sand from the fringe?


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

Robobum said:



			If I (or anyone else) view that footage and conclude that it looks as though he has cheated and share that view anywhere, I'd be shocked if legal action could stick.
		
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Spot on ... There is a rule and he broke it. He's a professional sportsman and he'd be lying through the gaps in his teeth if he didn't realise what he did was wrong. Shocking result for golf today, it's a sham.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			How can it be wrong to brand a cheat a cheat? Dyson has got away with murder (just an expression) ... Are you a Lawyer? Got inside info? Been close to someone that cheats? I'm reading your opinion and others that's all and it was knicker's, my error lol

It all needs to stop ... Both Tours should be telling these guys that they adhere to the RANDA Book or their @ss is on the line.
		
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It's never wrong to brand a cheat a cheat, but branding a non-cheat a cheat is very very different


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2013)

Robobum said:



			If I (or anyone else) view that footage and conclude that it looks as though he has cheated and share that view anywhere, I'd be shocked if legal action could stick.
		
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Granted
From the footage it's not good

But if he was deliberately,willfully and in a premeditated way "cheated", why didn't the Tour say so?
They went out of their way to state that Dyson had categorically not cheated.
And these are the people who have all the evidence in front of them....

There's nothing else to say really......


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So is Rory a cheat for brushing sand from the fringe?
		
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I've only just read about this one on here, I've no idea what happened. Hey apart from all that I don't give a hoot, Dyson lost his street cred instantly and as for Woods, I'm baffled as to how he got away with that one. Maybe it's his persona but I tell you what ... He wouldn't have a hope in hells chance trying to pull that one on my mates.


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It's never wrong to brand a cheat a cheat, but branding a non-cheat a cheat is very very different
		
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For sure ... That's where Dyson doesn't have a leg to stand on, he'll get a few stares!


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			I've only just read about this one on here, I've no idea what happened. Hey apart from all that I don't give a hoot, Dyson lost his street cred instantly and as for Woods, I'm baffled as to how he got away with that one. Maybe it's his persona but I tell you what ... He wouldn't have a hope in hells chance trying to pull that one on my mates.
		
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Well it's just as well Tiger doesn't play with you mates then


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Granted
From the footage it's not good

But if he was deliberately,willfully and in a premeditated way "cheated", why didn't the Tour say so?
They went out of their way to state that Dyson had categorically not cheated.
And these are the people who have all the evidence in front of them....

There's nothing else to say really......
		
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 I am sure if they had he would have sued, and the ET wouldn't want that. Hence the wording, which covers all bases. I think his fellow Pro's will be watching him like a hawk from now on.

I do find it strange that so many people seem to be happy to go with the ET wording, rather than actually form an opinion on what they actually see on the video. They can not call him a 'cheat', but they can say he deliberately tapped down a spike mark in the full knowledge he was breaking Rule 16-1 a, with the purpose of improving his position on the green.:mmm: That sounds like  ........


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Well it's just as well Tiger doesn't play with you mates then 

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lol ... He'd be made welcome but he'd get shown a Rule Book.

Seriously ... These guys are all on thin ice. Golf is a multi billion pound sport and someone somewhere is going to suffer, it was an easy option using Dyson and they've bottled it.

The question is ... Who's next, who's it going to be?


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## Hickory_Hacker (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I am sure if they had he would have sued, and the ET wouldn't want that. Hence the wording, which covers all bases. I think his fellow Pro's will be watching him like a hawk from now on.

I do find it strange that so many people seem to be happy to go with the ET wording, rather than actually form an opinion on what they actually see on the video. They can not call him a 'cheat', but they can say he deliberately tapped down a spike mark in the full knowledge he was breaking Rule 16-1 a, with the purpose of improving his position on the green.:mmm: That sounds like  ........
		
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Give that guy a coconut :whoo:


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I read that the ET adjudged that he deliberately tapped down a spike mark on the line of his putt, in the full knowledge he was breaking Rule 16-1a of the rules of golf, with the purpose of improving his position on the green.:mmm:

Interesting wording for someone that is not a cheat.:mmm: Seems to rule out a brain fart whatever that is.
		
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Sounds like the ET were calling him a cheat but gave themselves enough wriggle room to deny they were doing so if SD takes it further. Superbly worded by the ET's barrister.

I've followed this thread, and the whole episode, but have refrained from posting.

A young Hobbit officiated in a couple of top Yorkshire amatuer comps many years ago... SD having a word with the committee... now there's a shock...


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I am sure if they had he would have sued, and the ET wouldn't want that. Hence the wording, which covers all bases. I think his fellow Pro's will be watching him like a hawk from now on.

I do find it strange that so many people seem to be happy to go with the ET wording, rather than actually form an opinion on what they actually see on the video. They can not call him a 'cheat', but they can say he deliberately tapped down a spike mark in the full knowledge he was breaking Rule 16-1 a, with the purpose of improving his position on the green.:mmm: That sounds like  ........
		
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Couldn't agree more...
Tiger deliberately dropped in the wrong place in full knowledge of dropping procedure with the purpose of improving his chances of getting close to the flag ...that sound like...- same meat different gravy in my book..


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			.

A young Hobbit officiated in a couple of top Yorkshire amatuer comps many years ago... SD having a word with the committee... now there's a shock...
		
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Nooooooooooo!!!

You can't leave it there!!!!!


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

richart said:



			I am sure if they had he would have sued, and the ET wouldn't want that. Hence the wording, which covers all bases. I think his fellow Pro's will be watching him like a hawk from now on.

I do find it strange that so many people seem to be happy to go with the ET wording, rather than actually form an opinion on what they actually see on the video. They can not call him a 'cheat', but they can say he deliberately tapped down a spike mark in the full knowledge he was breaking Rule 16-1 a, with the purpose of improving his position on the green.:mmm: That sounds like  ........
		
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I formed my own opinion the moment it was bought to our attention. He made a mistake is my view - why is that so strange?


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2013)

And who's just turned up on this evenings Question of Sport?


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Nooooooooooo!!!

You can't leave it there!!!!! 

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I'm leaving myself wriggle room Darren, but I'm not shocked...


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## richart (Dec 6, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Couldn't agree more...
Tiger deliberately dropped in the wrong place in full knowledge of dropping procedure with the purpose of improving his chances of getting close to the flag ...that sound like...- same meat different gravy in my book..
		
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 Yes, but at the time he dropped the ball did he know he was breaking the rule. Remember it was a slightly strange sequence of events. Ball carried the water, then went back in off the flag. He couldn't drop at nearest point of relief, so went back to where he played original shot from. If he was knowingly breaking the rule would he admit it in an interview after the round ? As we all know that should have got him dq'd. Not a Tiger fan, but think it was a genuine mistake, and one I would probably have made.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 6, 2013)

chrisd said:



			And who's just turned up on this evenings Question of Sport?
		
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Dustin Johnson ?


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## Robobum (Dec 6, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			I'm leaving myself wriggle room Darren, but I'm not shocked...
		
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Nuff said sir


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Dustin Johnson ? 

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Spartacus ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			I'm leaving myself wriggle room Darren, but I'm not shocked...
		
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Be careful - you dont want to be accused of spreading gossip etc etc :blah:


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## Pro Zach (Dec 6, 2013)

Imurg said:



			At the end of the day, regardless of our own, personal opinions, the European Tour decided he was not guilty of cheating - that much is said in the ruling and is backed up by the fact that his ban wouldn't be suspended if they thought he did cheat.
Everyone agree on that..?
Good....
		
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Absolutely not.

Point 3 states he deliberately touched the line of put for the purpose of improving his position knowing it is against the rules.

This is as good definition of cheating as you can get.

They then say it was not a premeditated act of cheating. This does not say he didn't cheat, it says he didn't plan to cheat.

He had a momentary aberration (i.e. he wouldn't normally cheat) but in this instance he made a snap decision to cheat without time to consider his actions.


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			He had a momentary aberration (i.e. he wouldn't normally cheat) but in this instance he made a snap decision to cheat without time to consider his actions.
		
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This is just the point I made earlier in saying that it's the same as killing someone and the difference between cold bloodied intentional murder and manslaughter. In both cases someone dies but the perpetrator is given the lesser penalty if it was decided that he didn't set out to commit the offence!

I'd hate to be the accused if some of you lot were on the jury!


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## richart (Dec 7, 2013)

chrisd said:



			This is just the point I made earlier in saying that it's the same as killing someone and the difference between cold bloodied intentional murder and manslaughter. In both cases someone dies but the perpetrator is given the lesser penalty if it was decided that he didn't set out to commit the offence!

I'd hate to be the accused if some of you lot were on the jury!
		
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 Not sure if it matters if you set out to cheat or do it on the spur of the moment Chris. It is plain cheating either way, and the penalty should be the same. Anyone that has read the ruling of the committee knows they have found him guilty, unless they think that tapping down a spike mark in the full knowledge you are breaking a rule of golf, to improve your position on the green is acceptable. I am surprised that we haven't heard from Simon Dyson because it is a damning judgement.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

richart said:



			Not sure if it matters if you set out to cheat or do it on the spur of the moment Chris. It is plain cheating either way, and the penalty should be the same.
		
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Which is why, as Chris, I would hate to be judged by a jury. It very much matters if actions are planned or heat of the moment.


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## Dodger (Dec 7, 2013)

Imurg said:



			At the end of the day, regardless of our own, personal opinions, the European Tour decided he was not guilty of cheating - that much is said in the ruling and is backed up by the fact that his ban wouldn't be suspended if they thought he did cheat.
Everyone agree on that..?
Good....

Anyone calling him a Cheat anywhere, on here, on TV, in the papers or wherever is opening themselves up to a lawsuit and had better have some proof to back up their potentially libelous or slanderous comments..The ET held an inquiry and decreed that SD is NOT a Cheat - should be the end of it unless SD gets the Lawyers onto the likes of Roe, Pugh and the Mail.
		
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He's a cheat.Bring it on.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 7, 2013)

I don't think the words cheat or cheating appear anywhere in the rules of golf.


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## shivas irons (Dec 7, 2013)

The Tour charged Simon Dyson Â£7,500 towards the Tourâ€™s costs of these proceedings, what was that for a few cups of coffee .If I was Dyson I wouldnt pay them anything and play my golf elsewhere in the world.Two fingers to their pomp and move on eh Simon


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## Tommo21 (Dec 7, 2013)

Dodger said:



			He's a cheat.Bring it on.
		
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:clap:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Dodger said:



			He's a cheat.Bring it on.
		
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Is he ? Thought the verdict was something different to that ?


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## essexrob (Dec 7, 2013)

Any appeal ? They are saying he is guilty after all


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

essexrob said:



			Any appeal ? They are saying he is guilty after all
		
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Guilty of breaking a code not cheating


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guilty of breaking a code not cheating
		
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I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make. 

He broke the code by cheating.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make. 

He broke the code by cheating.
		
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Can you show me in the findings where they say that ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make. 

He broke the code by cheating.
		
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No he didn't. The ruling said he didn't cheat so therefore in the eyes of the professional governing body of the tour he plays on he's not a cheat.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you show me in the findings where they say that ?
		
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Yes. Point 3 defines he cheated. Point 4a points out cheating is against the code of behaviour. 4b gives mitigation. Point 5 gives the penalty for breaking the code, by cheating with mitigation.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No he didn't. The ruling said he didn't cheat so therefore in the eyes of the professional governing body of the tour he plays on he's not a cheat.
		
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The ruling did not say he didn't cheat. It says it was not premeditated.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Yes. Point 3 defines he cheated. Point 4a points out cheating is against the code of behaviour. 4b gives mitigation. Point 5 gives the penalty for breaking the code, by cheating with mitigation.
		
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*3. The Panel held that charge to have been made out by the Tour.  In particular, it found that:
(a) Mr Dysonâ€™s action in touching the line of his putt was a deliberate one;
(b) that act was committed by him in the knowledge of the Rule forbidding such an act; and
(c) his purpose in so acting was to improve his position on the green by pressing down a spike mark.

*

So where does it say he cheated ?

Unless every rule break is now classed as cheating ?


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



*3. The Panel held that charge to have been made out by the Tour.  In particular, it found that:
(a) Mr Dysonâ€™s action in touching the line of his putt was a deliberate one;
(b) that act was committed by him in the knowledge of the Rule forbidding such an act; and
(c) his purpose in so acting was to improve his position on the green by pressing down a spike mark.

*

So where does it say he cheated ?

Unless every rule break is now classed as cheating ?
		
Click to expand...

No, not every rule break is cheating. But every *deliberate rule break with the purpose of improving position* is. Because that is the definition of cheating.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



*3. The Panel held that charge to have been made out by the Tour.  In particular, it found that:
(a) Mr Dysonâ€™s action in touching the line of his putt was a deliberate one;
(b) that act was committed by him in the knowledge of the Rule forbidding such an act; and
(c) his purpose in so acting was to improve his position on the green by pressing down a spike mark.

*

So where does it say he cheated ?

Unless every rule break is now classed as cheating ?
		
Click to expand...

Really?

That says he was aware of the rule and deliberately broke it in order to gain an advantage. In what possible sense is that not cheating?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			No, not every rule break is cheating. But every *deliberate rule break with the purpose of improving position* is. Because that is the definition of cheating.
		
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So McIlroy and Woods are both cheats then.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Really?

That says he was aware of the rule and deliberately broke it in order to gain an advantage. In what possible sense is that not cheating?
		
Click to expand...

To me that says he deliberately touch the spike mark down - those words can be construed but to me they aren't calling him a cheat.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So McIlroy and Woods are both cheats then.
		
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I'm not aware of either deliberately breaking a rule to improve position.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			I'm not aware of either deliberately breaking a rule to improve position.
		
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Woods deliberately took a drop from the wrong spot and admitted he'd done so afterwards!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			I'm not aware of either deliberately breaking a rule to improve position.
		
Click to expand...

McIlroy brushed sand off the line of his putt when he wasn't on the green and only added a 2 shot penalty when Luke Donald said he couldn't do it. And Woods admitted in a TV interview to dropping the ball several feet behind where he should have done so he could hit the same shot again after his approach hit the flag stick and bounced into the water.

Both were clearly breaking a rule.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To me that says he deliberately touch the spike mark down - those words can be construed but to me they aren't calling him a cheat.
		
Click to expand...

LOL


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			McIlroy brushed sand off the line of his putt when he wasn't on the green and only added a 2 shot penalty when Luke Donald said he couldn't do it. And Woods admitted in a TV interview to dropping the ball several feet behind where he should have done so he could hit the same shot again after his approach hit the flag stick and bounced into the water.

Both were clearly breaking a rule.
		
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Yes, but neither *deliberately*.


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## Hallsy (Dec 7, 2013)

There are no Cheats in golf heaven forbid, merely rule breakers !


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Woods deliberately took a drop from the wrong spot and admitted he'd done so afterwards!
		
Click to expand...

He did indeed. But he didn't deliberately break a rule. You cannot deliberately break a rule you are unaware of.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			I'm not aware of either deliberately breaking a rule to improve position.
		
Click to expand...

McIlroy deliberately brushed away sand in front of him improving his line.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			He did indeed. But he didn't deliberately break a rule. You cannot deliberately break a rule you are unaware of.
		
Click to expand...

He was aware of the rule

If he isn't away of the rule about dropping a ball after going into hazard then I would have to question everyday drop he h as ever had


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Yes, but neither *deliberately*.
		
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How did they do it if it wasn't a deliberate action ?


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			There are no Cheats in golf heaven forbid, merely rule breakers !
		
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Don't you start. Anyone who deliberately breaks a rule to gain an advantage is a cheat.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How did they do it if it wasn't a deliberate action ?
		
Click to expand...

Do what?


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He was aware of the rule

If he isn't away of the rule about dropping a ball after going into hazard then I would have to question everyday drop he h as ever had
		
Click to expand...

So would I.

Edit. I've just seen Lee Westwood get a ruling because his ball was on a leaf on the green. It could be time to stop giving rulings and make the players learn the rules.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Do what?
		
Click to expand...

Brush the sand away , drop the ball , move the sign. All deliberate acts. 

And by your definition all cheating


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Brush the sand away , drop the ball , move the sign. All deliberate acts. 

And by your definition all cheating
		
Click to expand...

Deliberate acts aren't cheating, deliberately breaking the rules is.


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## hovis (Dec 7, 2013)

38 pages and still going. Lets go for a forum record.  I hit a 300 yard drive into wind today with a regular shaft in my driver


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

hovis said:



			38 pages and still going. Lets go for a forum record.  I hit a 300 yard drive into wind today with a regular shaft in my driver 

Click to expand...

Ponce


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2013)

hovis said:



			38 pages and still going. Lets go for a forum record.  I hit a 300 yard drive into wind today with a regular shaft in my driver 

Click to expand...

Well if we ever play together I'll let you play off the red tees. I hit it that far with my 6 iron. Uphill. All carry.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well if we ever play together I'll let you play off the red tees. I hit it that far with my 6 iron. Uphill. All carry. 

Click to expand...

Wimp


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Deliberate acts aren't cheating, deliberately breaking the rules is.
		
Click to expand...


But their deliberate act broke the rules 

There is no difference between all the acts


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## hovis (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Wimp

Click to expand...

My dad is harder than your dad


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But their deliberate act broke the rules 

There is no difference between all the acts
		
Click to expand...

Knowing they are breaking the rules is the difference.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

hovis said:



			My dad is harder than your dad
		
Click to expand...

My dad can spit a ball 300 yards.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Knowing they are breaking the rules is the difference.
		
Click to expand...

But Dyson didn't realise what he was doing until it was pointed out to him 

The same as McIlroy

When it was pointed out to both they realised they had both broke the rules.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Wimp

Click to expand...

Errrrmmm, did I say 6 iron? I meant SW. One handed. With my eyes closed. Left handed. Standing on one leg.


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## Hallsy (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Don't you start. Anyone who deliberately breaks a rule to gain an advantage is a cheat.
		
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There was meant to be a smiley at the end of the sentence but i forgot to put it in.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			Errrrmmm, did I say 6 iron? I meant SW. One handed. With my eyes closed. Left handed. Standing on one leg. 

Click to expand...

Why the mod edit would you do that?


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			There was meant to be a smiley at the end of the sentence but i forgot to put it in. 

Click to expand...

Yeah, I gathered.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			He did indeed. But he didn't deliberately break a rule. You cannot deliberately break a rule you are unaware of.
		
Click to expand...

Ignorance is no excuse, especially at that level.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But Dyson didn't realise what he was doing until it was pointed out to him 

The same as McIlroy

When it was pointed out to both they realised they had both broke the rules.
		
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I suspect Ian Mill QC thinks he did. Hence the decision.


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## Hallsy (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But Dyson didn't realise what he was doing until it was pointed out to him 

The same as McIlroy

When it was pointed out to both they realised they had both broke the rules.
		
Click to expand...

But the European tour governing body said he acted deliberately with full knowledge. So now dysons a liar?


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ignorance is no excuse, especially at that level.
		
Click to expand...

I stated it as a fact, not an excuse.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			I suspect Ian Mill QC thinks he did. Hence the decision.
		
Click to expand...

I prefer to believe the golfer.

There is no different between the incidents 

If you are calling Dyson a cheat for breaking a rule then it applies to both Woods and McIlory

They both did deliberate acts that broke a rule they knew existed and did it to gain an advantage


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			But the European tour governing body said he acted deliberately with full knowledge. So now dysons a liar?
		
Click to expand...


*the fact, as the Panel found, that Mr Dysonâ€™s conduct on the occasion in question involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of cheating*


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			But the European tour governing body said he acted deliberately with full knowledge. So now dysons a liar?
		
Click to expand...

That depends on if he ever told them he didn't.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2013)

Has anyone decided whether Monty is a cheat yet for improving his lie in abunker after a long rain delay?


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## Hallsy (Dec 7, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Has anyone decided whether Monty is a cheat yet for improving his lie in abunker after a long rain delay? 

Click to expand...

Please refer to page 37 post #367.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			Please refer to page 37 post #367. 

Click to expand...

Sorry, let me rephrase.
 "Has anyone decided whether Monty is a rule breaker yet for improving his lie in a bunker after a long rain delay?"


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, let me rephrase.
 "Has anyone decided whether Monty is a rule breaker yet for improving his lie in a bunker after a long rain delay?"

Click to expand...

I believe he broke the rules then and also in Indonesia with the immovable object


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe he broke the rules then and also in Indonesia with the immovable object
		
Click to expand...

Diplomatically put..


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Diplomatically put..

Click to expand...

:thup:

Don't want to upset the masses and enhance the hate figure image


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## Pro Zach (Dec 7, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I prefer to believe the golfer.

There is no different between the incidents 

If you are calling Dyson a cheat for breaking a rule then it applies to both Woods and McIlory

They both did deliberate acts that broke a rule they knew existed and did it to gain an advantage
		
Click to expand...

If you know what the golfer said I presume you where on the disciplinary panel. So you should know why he was fined and the others weren't. 

If you weren't on the panel then you can't know what he said. You now believe the golfer even though you don't know what he said.

I can't argue against that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			If you know what the golfer said I presume you where on the disciplinary panel. So you should know why he was fined and the others weren't. 

If you weren't on the panel then you can't know what he said. You now believe the golfer even though you don't know what he said.

I can't argue against that.
		
Click to expand...


Dyson said when the incident happened that he didn't realise what he did. That was common knowledge in the media.

And I believe in the integrity and trust of the game of golf and the players that play it. That's why I believe that Dyson, Woods , McIlroy etc didnt actually cheat when they broke the rules.


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			Deliberate acts aren't cheating, deliberately breaking the rules is.
		
Click to expand...

Now here's I believe you have mis-interpreted the 'ruling'.

Yes the act was deliberate. Yes the act broke a Rule. Yes he was, ore should have been, aware that it was a breach of the Rules.

But....

Was it 'A conscious act done to deliberately break the Rule' No I don't believe so. And it would seem neither does the Tribunal, otherwise the ban would not have been a 2 month suspended one - it would have been a 3 month actual one (the maximum allowed in their rules), consistent with Elliot Saltman's.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 8, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Dyson said when the incident happened that he didn't realise what he did. That was common knowledge in the media.

And I believe in the integrity and trust of the game of golf and the players that play it. That's why I believe that Dyson, Woods , McIlroy etc didnt actually cheat when they broke the rules.
		
Click to expand...


I think any reasonable person would think the same. As only one of them was punished, the disciplinary panel made an unreasonable judgement, or they had more information than us. I favour the latter.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Now here's I believe you have mis-interpreted the 'ruling'.

Yes the act was deliberate. Yes the act broke a Rule. Yes he was, ore should have been, aware that it was a breach of the Rules.

But....

Was it 'A conscious act done to deliberately break the Rule' No I don't believe so. And it would seem neither does the Tribunal, otherwise the ban would not have been a 2 month suspended one - it would have been a 3 month actual one (the maximum allowed in their rules), consistent with Elliot Saltman's.
		
Click to expand...

By definition it is not possible to have a non-conscious deliberate act. The only way I can see it being reasonable to conclude that he deliberately touched the line for the purpose of improving his position is if he held his hands up and admitted it. This might also explain the lenient sentence.


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			I think any reasonable person would think the same. As only one of them was punished, the disciplinary panel made an unreasonable judgement, or they had more information than us. I favour the latter.
		
Click to expand...

I favour the 'or the circumstances were different' reason.

I confess! It was me that shot JFK. He was about to release details of where I'd hidden Hitler and my plans for an air attack on New York and the Pentagon!  

You are simply conspiratorially (mis)interpreting Paragraph 3 of the Decision Summary imo!


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			By definition it is not possible to have a non-conscious deliberate act. The only way I can see it being reasonable to conclude that he deliberately touched the line for the purpose of improving his position is if he held his hands up and admitted it. This might also explain the lenient sentence.
		
Click to expand...

I believe - and have posted so previously in this thread - that the 'deliberate' reference in Para 3 is to differentiate it from an accidental one. Clause C gave me more concern about the Panel's view until I read Para 4, looked at the structure of the document - and how it relates to Legal Proceedings/Court of Law - so it was merely stating a fact.

Para 1. Elongated Title
Para 2. The Reason for the proceedings
Para 3. The Facts/Evidence
Para 4. The Verdict
Para 5. The Sentence

As usual, folk are likely to interpret a document with words and potential contradictions.

Btw. And unrelated to the reason for/outcome of the hearing or my interpretation of the result.

This rule would be first on my list of Rules to change - I'd add 'or spike Marks, without undue delay' to the list of things that could be repaired.


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## Dave3498 (Dec 8, 2013)

Spuddy said:



			In both cases, the players didn't realise they had broken a rule until someone else told them. Rory was lucky that his occurred before the card was signed to avoid being DQ'd but both players improved their line illegally.  It's odd that Dyson gets hauled over the coals for it.
		
Click to expand...

Dyson was hauled over the coals because he signed for an incorrect score at the end of the round, Rory didn't


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 8, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			Dyson was hauled over the coals because he signed for an incorrect score at the end of the round, Rory didn't
		
Click to expand...

No he wasn't, he was hauled over the coals for a breach of the disciplinary code, not for signing and incorrect score. What he did and what McIlroy did are in essence identical apart from the timescale of someone pointing out the mistake


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## Dave3498 (Dec 8, 2013)

Tommo21 said:



			Total tosh.............
		
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I hope you club competitions secretary doesn't see this!!


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## Dave3498 (Dec 8, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No he wasn't, he was hauled over the coals for a breach of the disciplinary code, not for signing and incorrect score. What he did and what McIlroy did are in essence identical apart from the timescale of someone pointing out the mistake
		
Click to expand...

You're quite wrong.  Dyson would not have been before a disciplinary committee if he had penalised himself and not signed for an incorrect score.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 8, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			You're quite wrong.  Dyson would not have been before a disciplinary committee if he had penalised himself and not signed for an incorrect score.
		
Click to expand...

Show me where it says that, and while you're at it, show me where it says he was disciplined for signing an incorrect score?


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			You're quite wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Er. No he's not!



Dave3498 said:



			Dyson would not have been before a disciplinary committee if he had penalised himself and not signed for an incorrect score.
		
Click to expand...

Quite probably so.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2013)

Hallsy said:



			But the European tour governing body said he acted deliberately with full knowledge. So now dysons a liar?
		
Click to expand...

I think the ruling makes it pretty clear what the ET believe - "... acted deliberately with full knowledge." They then give themselves an out, if Dyson decides to contest their wording, by saying "momentary abberation." I think the ruling is superbly worded.



Liverpoolphil said:



			Dyson said when the incident happened that he didn't realise what he did. That was common knowledge in the media.

And I believe in the integrity and trust of the game of golf and the players that play it. That's why I believe that Dyson, Woods , McIlroy etc didnt actually cheat when they broke the rules.
		
Click to expand...

There is a danger in blindly believing people that you then put the integrity of the game at risk. Do you know what was going through the heads of Woods, McIlroy and Dyson when they breached the rules? No you don't. Best leave beliefs out of rulings and apply the rules objectively.

Deliberate act = cheating.


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			Deliberate act = cheating.
		
Click to expand...

I interpret it slightly differently

Deliberate act = He intended to do it.

'He intended to do it to cheat' is a Subset of the above.


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## virtuocity (Dec 8, 2013)

Hoping for MikeH to put his opinions forward in his next editorial.


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## Dave3498 (Dec 8, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Show me where it says that, and while you're at it, show me where it says he was disciplined for signing an incorrect score?
		
Click to expand...

Dyson was disqualified from the competition for signing for an incorrect score.  I respect what you say about the disciplinary code but I think that only came into question because of his disqualification.  If he had penalised himself before he signed his card, he would not have had been called into question.  You may know more than I about previous incidents and maybe the committee would have called him for these.  If that's the case, then I agree with you.


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## Dodger (Dec 8, 2013)

So........I aint read the thread since yesterday but I take it we have agreed Dyson is a cheat aye?


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

Dave3498 said:



			Dyson was disqualified from the competition for signing for an incorrect score.  I respect what you say about the disciplinary code but I think that only came into question because of his disqualification.  If he had penalised himself before he signed his card, he would not have had been called into question.  You may know more than I about previous incidents and maybe the committee would have called him for these.  If that's the case, then I agree with you.
		
Click to expand...

You miss - or maybe avoid - Hawkeye's point.

He was DQ-ed (Penalised) for signing for an incorrect score.

He was 'hauled over the coals' charged with a Serious Breach of the European Tour's Code of Behaviour.

I'm certain that, if he'd realised he'd broken a Rule and applied the appropriate penalty he a) wouldn't have been disqualified and b) Wouldn't have been charged.....

I'm also almost cetain that if he'd realised he'd broken a Rule, he would have applied the appropriate penalty. 

Important to get the cause/effect and terms correct though! In this Trigger; Result; Consequence.


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## Dave3498 (Dec 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			You miss - or maybe avoid - Hawkeye's point.

He was DQ-ed (Penalised) for signing for an incorrect score.

He was 'hauled over the coals' charged with a Serious Breach of the European Tour's Code of Behaviour.

I'm certain that, if he'd realised he'd broken a Rule and applied the appropriate penalty he a) wouldn't have been disqualified and b) Wouldn't have been charged.....

I'm also almost cetain that if he'd realised he'd broken a Rule, he would have applied the appropriate penalty. 

Important to get the cause/effect and terms correct though! In this Trigger; Result; Consequence.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I misunderstood Hawkeye's point, but I agree with all the rest of what you say.  It's much the same as my point, but perhaps better put.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			I think the ruling makes it pretty clear what the ET believe - "... acted deliberately with full knowledge." They then give themselves an out, if Dyson decides to contest their wording, by saying "momentary abberation." I think the ruling is superbly worded.



There is a danger in blindly believing people that you then put the integrity of the game at risk. Do you know what was going through the heads of Woods, McIlroy and Dyson when they breached the rules? No you don't. Best leave beliefs out of rulings and apply the rules objectively.

Deliberate act = cheating.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know what was going through the minds hence why I chose to believe the players and put my faith and trust into their own personal integrity 

I don't believe any of them were cheating - believe they all made a mistake and one got punished harshly compared to the others. If Dyson was a big star like Woods I would also wonder if any proceedings would have occurred. 

At the end of the day the committee didn't find him guilty of cheating and I believe that is correct.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I favour the 'or the circumstances were different' reason.

I confess! It was me that shot JFK. He was about to release details of where I'd hidden Hitler and my plans for an air attack on New York and the Pentagon!  

You are simply conspiratorially (mis)interpreting Paragraph 3 of the Decision Summary imo!
		
Click to expand...


There is no conspiracy here, just a possible explanation based on probability.

The circumstances were different because in this case he cheated. This is clearly defined in point 3.

I think you are misinterpreting what it says.

But if as you and others think, they didn't conclude he cheated, why was he given a fine and suspension?


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 8, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			There is no conspiracy here, just a possible explanation based on probability.

The circumstances were different because in this case he cheated. This is clearly defined in point 3.

I think you are misinterpreting what it says.

But if as you and others think, they didn't conclude he cheated, why was he given a fine and suspension?
		
Click to expand...

If they had concluded he had cheated, it wouldn't have been a suspended 2 month ban, it would have been an outright ban.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2013)

If they thought he cheated then why didn't they ban him like they did Saltman ? As opposed to giving him a suspended sentence for breaking their code

And do you keep missing the part where it says that they concluded that it wasn't premeditated cheating ( the only time in the whole conclusion they used the word "cheat" )


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 8, 2013)

Dodger said:



			So........I aint read the thread since yesterday but I take it we have agreed Dyson is a cheat aye?
		
Click to expand...

Nope


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			There is no conspiracy here, just a possible explanation based on probability.

The circumstances were different because in this case he cheated. This is clearly defined in point 3.

I think you are misinterpreting what it says.

But if as you and others think, they didn't conclude he cheated, why was he given a fine and suspension?
		
Click to expand...

This discussion is going nowhere.

Paragraph 4 of clearly states 'Mr Dysonâ€™s conduct on the occasion in question involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of cheating'!

Whatever interpretation you wish to take on Para 3 or any other part of the document, the above quote is unequivocal!

The Fine and (Suspended) Suspension are because the Charge was deemed Proven. The Charge, however, was not that he was a cheat, but 'that he intentionally tapped down a spike mark on the line of his putt on the 8th green at Lake Malaren Golf Club during the second round of the BMW Masters on 25th October 2013, and that in doing so he deliberately interfered with the line of his putt, contrary to Rule 16-1a of the Rules of Golf.'

Trying to think of an analogy. The only one that's anything near - and it's not all that close - involves Speeding and Dangerous Driving.

Yes, (objective) facts might show that someone was speeding, but that doesn't mean that it was (subjective) 'dangerous'.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			This discussion is going nowhere.

Paragraph 4 of clearly states 'Mr Dysonâ€™s conduct on the occasion in question involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of cheating'!

Whatever interpretation you wish to take on Para 3 or any other part of the document, the above quote is unequivocal!

The Fine and (Suspended) Suspension are because the Charge was deemed Proven. The Charge, however, was not that he was a cheat, but 'that he intentionally tapped down a spike mark on the line of his putt on the 8th green at Lake Malaren Golf Club during the second round of the BMW Masters on 25th October 2013, and that in doing so he deliberately interfered with the line of his putt, contrary to Rule 16-1a of the Rules of Golf.'

Trying to think of an analogy. The only one that's anything near - and it's not all that close - involves Speeding and Dangerous Driving.

Yes, (objective) facts might show that someone was speeding, but that doesn't mean that it was (subjective) 'dangerous'.
		
Click to expand...

It's not unequivocal as demonstrated by your misinterpretation.

Not an act of cheating, means he didn't cheat. Not a premeditated act of cheating means he didn't plan to cheat.

Point 3 states he cheated, this states it wasn't premeditated.

Aberration has several meanings, I suspect in this context they mean departure from the normal. i.e. he doesn't normally cheat.

If he was fined and suspended for what you say then he would have had the same punishment even if he had added a 2 stroke penalty. Which is ridiculous and therefore complete dangly bits.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 8, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If they thought he cheated then why didn't they ban him like they did Saltman ? As opposed to giving him a suspended sentence for breaking their code

And do you keep missing the part where it says that they concluded that it wasn't premeditated cheating ( the only time in the whole conclusion they used the word "cheat" )
		
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They didn't use the word cheat they used the word cheating. It was preceded by the word premeditated. Perhaps they just like using big words or perhaps they meant he didn't plan to cheat.


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			It's not unequivocal as demonstrated by your misinterpretation.

Not an act of cheating, means he didn't cheat. Not a premeditated act of cheating means he didn't plan to cheat.

Point 3 states he cheated, this states it wasn't premeditated.

Aberration has several meanings, I suspect in this context they mean departure from the normal. i.e. he doesn't normally cheat.

If he was fined and suspended for what you say then he would have had the same punishment even if he had added a 2 stroke penalty. Which is ridiculous and therefore complete dangly bits.
		
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G'rrr

To answer each point!

1. Unequivocal! There in Print! I quoted the text! No (possibility of) misinterpretation! 

2. Correct! I cannot, and am not really interested in attempting to, alter your opinion, however badly considered and wrong I think it might be. I don't believe he's a cheat! And nowhere in the document does it state that 'he is a cheat' either! 

3. Please show me where the document '*states* he cheated'. It actually stated 'not a premeditated act of cheating'. Unequivocal! Take another 2 clouts of the 9-iron!

4. I agree! So what? What's your point?

5. Possibly. But speculation and, I believe, wrong! Consistent with McIlroy's aberration, there would not have been a DQ and, again as per McIlroy's incident, he would not have been charged with breaching the Code of Conduct - which no doubt states something along the lines of having to apply all suitable Penalties in the Rules before returning a Card.


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## Pro Zach (Dec 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			G'rrr

To answer each point!

1. Unequivocal! There in Print! I quoted the text! No (possibility of) misinterpretation! 

2. Correct! I cannot, and am not really interested in attempting to, alter your opinion, however badly considered and wrong I think it might be. I don't believe he's a cheat! And nowhere in the document does it state that 'he is a cheat' either! 

3. Please show me where the document '*states* he cheated'. It actually stated 'not a premeditated act of cheating'. Unequivocal! Take another 2 clouts of the 9-iron!

4. I agree! So what? What's your point?

5. Possibly. But speculation and, I believe, wrong! Consistent with McIlroy's aberration, there would not have been a DQ and, again as per McIlroy's incident, he would not have been charged with breaching the Code of Conduct - which no doubt states something along the lines of having to apply all suitable Penalties in the Rules before returning a Card.
		
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What is written is unequivocal the meaning is obviously not. You seem to think 'not a premeditated act of cheating' means he didn't cheat whereas it actually means he did. Why would they decide he didn't cheat, then in mitigation, point out it wasn't premeditated?

What would you make of this?

1. This is the Decision of the disciplinary panel in the matter of Fred Blogs. 

2. Mr Blogs was charged with a serious breach of the code of behaviour, the facts being that he intentionally assaulted Mr Smith.

3. The panel found 
(a) Mr Blogs action was a deliberate one
(b) the purpose in so acting was to cause Mr Smith harm.

4. The panel found that Mr Blogs action involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of (mod edit)

5. The panel fine him Â£1000.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 9, 2013)

Right gents, that's enough point scoring for one night
Can we declare it a draw
Please


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## Fish (Dec 9, 2013)

This is like a bad episode of Magic Roundabout with a few characters that need killing off


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 9, 2013)

I think what this thread highlights is the appalling lack of leadership from the tour.

They should have released an unequivocal statement that either cleared or convicted dyson. Instead we got this terrible obfuscation that can be interpreted either way.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2013)

Fish said:



			This is like a bad episode of Magic Roundabout with a few characters that need killing off 

Click to expand...

I think it's a bit harsh to suggest that Simon Dyson should be "killed off" for cheating/not cheating (delete as applicable for your point of view).


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## Fish (Dec 9, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			obfuscation
		
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Word of the month :thup:

I had to Google it, can't wait to use it now next week at the club :rofl:


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## Colin L (Dec 9, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			What is written is unequivocal the meaning is obviously not. You seem to think 'not a premeditated act of cheating' means he didn't cheat whereas it actually means he did. Why would they decide he didn't cheat, then in mitigation, point out it wasn't premeditated?
		
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Unfortunately you are being misled by  the use of _unpremeditated_ which is really redundant.  Cheating has to be premeditated.  The statement does not distinguish, as you are trying to make it do, between premeditated and unpremeditated cheating.  The latter does not exist.  Had the statement read "it was not an act of cheating" it would have meant exactly the same as it does with _premeditated_ in it,  but might have saved a deal of misunderstanding.


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## CMAC (Dec 9, 2013)

Fish said:





Word of the month :thup:

I had to Google it, can't wait to use it now next week at the club :rofl:
		
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it certainly discombobulated me :smirk:


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## Fish (Dec 9, 2013)

CMAC said:



			it certainly discombobulated me :smirk:
		
Click to expand...

26 on the scrabble board that :smirk:


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## Pro Zach (Dec 9, 2013)

Colin L said:



			Unfortunately you are being misled by  the use of _unpremeditated_ which is really redundant.  Cheating has to be premeditated.  The statement does not distinguish, as you are trying to make it do, between premeditated and unpremeditated cheating.  The latter does not exist.  Had the statement read "it was not an act of cheating" it would have meant exactly the same as it does with _premeditated_ in it,  but might have saved a deal of misunderstanding.
		
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Indeed. My first post on this thread said the decision was ambiguous. One of the reasons was exactly your point. All cheating is premeditated i.e. you can't accidentally cheat. 

I then read it as I would read a legal document, or how I believe you would read the rules of golf. That is, they don't just add words to make it more interesting, as we might in a forum discussion. This means the word must have meaning. I believe if they had meant 'it was not an act of cheating' that is what they would have written.

Looking at the legal term premeditated murder the same thing applies. All murder is premeditated i.e. you can't accidentally murder someone. 

The term is used to distinguish between planned and impulsive actions. This means the statement says he did cheat but it was an impulsive, spur of the moment decision. 

Of course I could be wrong. I can see how Foxholer and others are interpreting it differently and they could be right. I just think it is less probable. One of the main reasons is because if they are saying he didn't cheat then they punished him for breaking rule 16-1a. This means they consider breaking that rule (but seemingly not others) a serious breach of the code. I find that very improbable. Not quite as improbable as them punishing him for not being very famous, but still unlikely.


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## Colin L (Dec 10, 2013)

Look at  the structure which is very straightforward:

The statement says _Dyson did A; he did not do B. _ 
It does not allow for the reading,  _Dyson did A; he did not do B; but what we are really trying to say is that he did C.
_

In general, not directed at Zach, it is amazing how many people seem to want a player who has breached the rules to be hung up by his Pro v1s and flogged as a "cheat".   Since the first objective of cheating is not to be found out, the ideal way of achieving that is obviously to tap down a spike mark  in full view of other players, caddies, gallery and TV cameras.  Which has been said before, and conveniently ignored by the hang 'em and flog 'em group. If Dyson is  a cheat, he is an outstandingly inept one.

Anyway, unless you have played, as I did last night, an unfamiliar board game with your 5 year old grandson who takes winning as his right, you have no idea what real cheating is about.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 10, 2013)

Colin L said:



			Look at  the structure which is very straightforward:

The statement says _Dyson did A; he did not do B. _ 
It does not allow for the reading,  _Dyson did A; he did not do B; but what we are really trying to say is that he did C.
_

*In general, not directed at Zach, it is amazing, how many people seem to want a player who has breached the rules to be hung up by his Pro v1s and flogged as a "cheat".   Since the first objective of cheating is not to be found out, the ideal way of achieving that is obviously to tap down a spike mark  in full view of other players, caddies, gallery and TV cameras.  Which has been said before, and conveniently ignored by the hang 'em and flog 'em group. If Dyson is  a cheat, he is an outstandingly inept one.*

Anyway, unless you have played, as I did last night, an unfamiliar board game with your 5 year old grandson who takes winning as his right, you have no idea what real cheating is about. 

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly, it seems some people are desperate for him to be outed as a cheat, I'm not sure why, but as you say,and I said earlier in the thread, if you were going to cheat, right next to the hole when in contention in the first of the R2D Final Series events shown live on TV is not the place to be doing it.


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## CMAC (Dec 10, 2013)

Colin L said:



			Look at  the structure which is very straightforward:

The statement says _Dyson did A; he did not do B. _ 
It does not allow for the reading,  _Dyson did A; he did not do B; but what we are really trying to say is that he did C.
_

In general, not directed at Zach, *it is amazing how many people seem to want a player who has breached the rules to be hung up by his Pro v1s and flogged as a "cheat".   Since the first objective of cheating is not to be found out, the ideal way of achieving that is obviously to tap down a spike mark  in full view of other players, caddies, gallery and TV cameras.  Which has been said before, and conveniently ignored by the hang 'em and flog 'em group. If Dyson is  a cheat, he is an outstandingly inept one.*

Anyway, unless you have played, as I did last night, an unfamiliar board game with your 5 year old grandson who takes winning as his right, you have no idea what real cheating is about. 

Click to expand...

well said, not only do you get the 'hang em high' gang, you get the Chinese whispers crowd pre and post decision who base all their statements on assumption, hearsay and gossip. Wonder how they would feel if it happened to them at their own club by similar people


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## Pro Zach (Dec 10, 2013)

Colin L said:



			Look at  the structure which is very straightforward:

The statement says _Dyson did A; he did not do B. _ 
It does not allow for the reading,  _Dyson did A; he did not do B; but what we are really trying to say is that he did C.
_

In general, not directed at Zach, it is amazing how many people seem to want a player who has breached the rules to be hung up by his Pro v1s and flogged as a "cheat".   Since the first objective of cheating is not to be found out, the ideal way of achieving that is obviously to tap down a spike mark  in full view of other players, caddies, gallery and TV cameras.  Which has been said before, and conveniently ignored by the hang 'em and flog 'em group. If Dyson is  a cheat, he is an outstandingly inept one.

Anyway, unless you have played, as I did last night, an unfamiliar board game with your 5 year old grandson who takes winning as his right, you have no idea what real cheating is about. 

Click to expand...

In response to the A,B,Cs I can only say; What?

Does it not amaze you that people want a player who has breached the rules to 'be caused and continue to be caused detriment', pay Â£37500 and have a 2 month suspension (suspended)?

Your argument on cheating is why being obvious is often the best way. People are less likely to spot it because they don't expect blatant cheating. If they do spot it then they are unlikely to believe you did it deliberately. A defence stating â€œI'd have to be a complete idiot to do thatâ€, should be taken with a pinch of salt.

For clarity, I am not advocating cheating. There is no honour in cheating, only guilt and self loathing. I often wonder how I sleep at night. I suspect the trophies and money help. Gilt diminishes guilt.

For clearer clarity the above is a joke. Only a complete idiot would come on the forum and admit to cheating.....err.......back to topic.

My opinion of whether he cheated or not is irrelevant, even to me. My argument has been about whether the document says he cheated or not. I think it does, others think it doesn't.

At the end of the day I could be right and they could be complete idiots or they could be right and I have made a small mistake. If, as I say, they have luckily stumbled across the correct meaning and I have made a small unavoidable error then it is clearly the fault of the ET for producing such a misleading report. 

I can live with that.


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2013)

Pro Zach said:



			What is written is unequivocal the meaning is obviously not. You seem to think 'not a premeditated act of cheating' means he didn't cheat whereas it actually means he did. Why would they decide he didn't cheat, then in mitigation, point out it wasn't premeditated?

What would you make of this?

1. This is the Decision of the disciplinary panel in the matter of Fred Blogs. 

2. Mr Blogs was charged with a serious breach of the code of behaviour, the facts being that he intentionally assaulted Mr Smith.

3. The panel found 
(a) Mr Blogs action was a deliberate one
(b) the purpose in so acting was to cause Mr Smith harm.

4. The panel found that Mr Blogs action involved a momentary aberration on his part, not a premeditated act of (mod edit)

5. The panel fine him Â£1000.
		
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Never saw this post, so missed the original un-modded version.

But the analogy is wrong! 

You simply don't seem to be able to accept what appears quite plain to me! So for the record, I think you are a complete idiot!

And that is the last I plan to say on this topic.


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## FairwayDodger (Dec 10, 2013)

Quite amused by the entrenched views and name calling on this thread.

In my opinion........

The statement says that dyson cheated, and then goes on to say that he didn't cheat.

Glad to able to clear that up for you all!


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## Pro Zach (Dec 10, 2013)

Too late to edit but the last paragraph in my previous post was tongue in cheek. I thought it seemed obvious. Perhaps this thread should have taught me not to make such assumptions. So I am, as someone kindly pointed out, a complete idiot or I made a mistake and should have used smilies.

To be clear, I do not think people are idiots because they have a different opinion.

Unless they opine that golf lessons are a good idea.

That should be good for another 40 pages.


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## shivas irons (Dec 11, 2013)

Seems Mr Dysons woes have stirred people up here,when I started this thread I just thought there would be a handfull of replies, theres been nearly 500 and almost 4000 views.........Was thinking the armchair referees are going to be watching Dyson like a hawk when he tee's it up again and Dy himself is going to have to be so vigilant with everything he does as one more slip up and not only will he incure the ban but he's reputation will be ruined, hope this doesent kill the guys game.


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