# Lining up (Aim) for a Draw/Fade



## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

Since I took up the game in 2010, I've always hit the ball pretty straight or with a slight fade.

As I've had lessons and my swing has begun to change I've started to hit more draws than anything else.

As a result I'm tending to miss my target left. Not by much, only usually a few yards, but have a question for you knowledgeable lot:

How do you aim for a particular shot?

As an example. You're hitting into a par 3. The pin is placed in the middle of a big, flat green as you look. If you play a consistent draw as your usual (Read as natural) shot:

Do you aim the clubface to your target, your target being the pin in the middle of the green, and align your body parallel to that line?

Or 

Do you aim the clubface and body just a little right of the target (Flag stick) to allow for the curve back?

With the opposite applying for a fade.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts/opinions on aiming or allowing for a particular shot shape and how best to aim.

Any thoughts, as always, are welcome :thup:


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## tsped83 (Aug 6, 2014)

No idea myself Gareth, but playing with one of my partners last night ( 4 hcp - great player, always draws it) I asked him how he always manages to hit a consistent draw to target. He says that he doesn't change his aim or alignment at all, but "opens his hands on the back swing" and their is more hand/wrist movement through the ball to close the face at impact. Something like that anyway. As for alignment, he aims straight at target.


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## patricks148 (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Since I took up the game in 2010, I've always hit the ball pretty straight or with a slight fade.

As I've had lessons and my swing has begun to change I've started to hit more draws than anything else.

As a result I'm tending to miss my target left. Not by much, only usually a few yards, but have a question for you knowledgeable lot:

How do you aim for a particular shot?

As an example. You're hitting into a par 3. The pin is placed in the middle of a big, flat green as you look. If you play a consistent draw as your usual (Read as natural) shot:

Do you aim the clubface to your target, your target being the pin in the middle of the green, and align your body parallel to that line?

Or 

Do you aim the clubface and body just a little right of the target (Flag stick) to allow for the curve back?

With the opposite applying for a fade.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts/opinions on aiming or allowing for a particular shot shape and how best to aim.

Any thoughts, as always, are welcome :thup:
		
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are you sure you are not just pulling it left?


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## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			are you sure you are not just pulling it left?
		
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Pretty sure Patrick. 

The ball starts fractionally to the right or straight, then, at the top of the flight curves gently left.


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## patricks148 (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Pretty sure Patrick. 

The ball starts fractionally to the right or straight, then, at the top of the flight curves gently left.
		
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yes thats a pull a proper draw starts right and comes back to centre. I know ive been hitting a pull for years


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## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

See, I've always called that a draw.

Anything starting right and moving back left being a push draw(?)


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

It doesn't really matter what it's called (though I'd call it a Straight Draw as per he above chart), the effect is that it ends up e few yards left of where Gareth wants it. 

The simple solution is to align body a few yards right of target and *hit the same shot*. That can be a little difficult - as those that start off with a slicey fade and 'correct' by aiming left and turning it into a full-blown slice a couple of swings later will attest! The subconscious brain is wonderfully reactive and can often turn really poor swings into almost adequate ones. But it can stubbornly get too involved, over-riding a 'correct' swing until it has the confidence that practice has shown it works!


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## patricks148 (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			See, I've always called that a draw.

Anything starting right and moving back left being a push draw(?)






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not sure what to make of that lot, G looks like a proper draw. D looks like a pull to me.


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## garyinderry (Aug 6, 2014)

i've only recently started hitting fades with a closed club face (to target line) then swinging well left.   aiming a little left of target line.


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## Spuddy (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth,  it depends on which one of the above is your natural shot.  Mine is D so I pick an aiming point to the right of target and hope it comes back in.  If the pins on the left then I'll aim at the right hand side of the green so that it'll hopefully end up on the green even if it doesn't draw as much as I hope.  If the pins on the right then I'll still aim at the right so if it draws or goes straight it'll still end up on the green.  If I aim right of the green in the hope of a draw and it goes straight then I'll be off the putting surface so it's the lowest percentage shot.

I'm working on getting a fade into my armoury at the movement by picking an aiming line to the left of target and opening the face a little to that line (but closed to the target line).  It's not consistent enough at the moment to take it onto the course


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## la_lucha (Aug 6, 2014)

I've recently gone through the same issue. I align the clubface left edge of the green. Be sure to alter you stance accordingly though or you'll end up hitting (I) a push fade.


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## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

Last night was a prime example of what is stated above.

Our 4th is a 157 yard par 3.

The pin last night was towards the right edge of the green. Behind the green are some newly planted trees with ne being on the extreme edge of the green.

Aimed the club face at this tree. Aligned my body square to that line and played the shot.

Started exactly on that line, tiny draw, one bounce and stopped 10ft past the pin (Directly behind it).

This got me thinking about how I align myself based on this kind of shot that I'm playing with more frequency and I thought I'd pose it here to gauge a response.


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## virtuocity (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth, do you reckon you'd really see a benefit to shaping the ball two ways?  Or rather, do you reckon that the time taken to practice and perfect both a draw and a fade isn't better spent perfecting one shot shape?


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## garyinderry (Aug 6, 2014)

the more right I aim the more I end up pulling it or flipping it and missing way left.   only a touch right of target, face a touch open and normal swing should bring it back towards target.


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## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Gareth, do you reckon you'd really see a benefit to shaping the ball two ways?  Or rather, do you reckon that the time taken to practice and perfect both a draw and a fade isn't better spent perfecting one shot shape?
		
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I don't want to shape it both ways.

I'm curious as to how you aim for a specific shot shape.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			not sure what to make of that lot, G looks like a proper draw. D looks like a pull to me.
		
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I think you'd be in a distinct minority!

They are the descriptions of shots according to 'New' Ball Flight Laws.

What do you call a shot that goes left, but/and straight - that they (and I) call a Pull?


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## Spuddy (Aug 6, 2014)

G and D are the same shot, or should I say flight.  In both, the face is closed to the swing path.  The important thing to understand is how the initial ball flight is affected by your swing.   The direction the ball initially heads is dependant on your swing path.  Therefore if you have an in to out swing with a closed face relative to this path then the ball will start right and draw back in (G).  If this is you're swing then you must setup aimed at the target.


If you have a neutral swing with a closed face at impact (as I do) then the ball will start straight before drawing left (D).  For me to hit the target I have to aim right.


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## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			G and D are the same shot, or should I say flight.  In both, the face is closed to the swing path.  The important thing to understand is how the initial ball flight is affected by your swing. * The direction the ball initially heads is dependant on your swing path. Therefore if you have an in to out swing with a closed face relative to this path then the ball will start right and draw back in (G).  If this is you're swing then you must setup aimed at the target.*


If you have a neutral swing with a closed face at impact (as I do) then the ball will start straight before drawing left (D).  For me to hit the target I have to aim right.
		
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I'm not 100% up with D-Plane, but I think you'll find this statement wrong.

The initial direction of the shot is dictated, mainly, by face position at impact and not the swing path.

If the face is open to the target line at impact, the ball with start to the right. If the face is closed to the swing path, the ball will move back to the left.


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## lex! (Aug 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It doesn't really matter what it's called (though I'd call it a Straight Draw as per he above chart), the effect is that it ends up e few yards left of where Gareth wants it. 

The simple solution is to align body a few yards right of target and *hit the same shot*.
		
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This is the shot that I have been looking for with consistency since I took up the game and above is the guidance that I was given when being taught. My coach has been looking for the in to out swing path with me with the draw shape the intention.


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## virtuocity (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			I don't want to shape it both ways.

I'm curious as to how you aim for a specific shot shape.
		
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Gotcha!

And I can't believe that there are people who still think that swing path dictates the starting direction of the ball.

For a fade, in my humble opinion, it's a case of aiming left, club head slightly open to stance but closed to target and swing path goes along the stance as normal.


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## RGDave (Aug 6, 2014)

My best ever season was playing small pushes and draws. We know (these days) that the idea of the clubface aiming at the target with the body/feet one way or the other is kind of bunkum. 

If you know you are going to draw a certain type of club (like your mid irons, say) then build it into your preparation for the shot.
There is one hole (a par 3) on my course where I always play for the draw. 1) it suits the hole and 2) suits the 4 iron (nasty offset Callaway BB) I tend to hit there.

My alignment is at a tree a little right of the green, and I guess the clubface is at the right-hand bunker. Works for me. 

The other long-ish par 3 requires a 5 wood and suits a fade. This is hard for me, so I tend to set up with everything left and try to slash the hell out of it!!

Both would be fine straight, but I don't really have much joy with straight t.b.h.


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## Spuddy (Aug 6, 2014)

virtuocity said:



			Gotcha!

And I can't believe that there are people who still think that swing path dictates the starting direction of the ball.
		
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believe it!  

Happy as as always to be corrected.. Cheers guys


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## patricks148 (Aug 6, 2014)

but if you are hitting it straight and its going left its not a draw.... unless you are aiming left


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

Spuddy said:



			G and D are the same shot, or should I say flight. In both, the face is closed to the swing path. *  The important thing to understand is how the initial ball flight is affected by your swing.  The direction the ball initially heads is dependant on your swing path. * Therefore if you have an in to out swing with a closed face relative to this path then the ball will start right and draw back in (G). * If this is you're swing then you must setup aimed at the target. *

*If you have a neutral swing with a closed face at impact (as I do) then the ball will start straight before drawing left (D). *  For me to hit the target I have to aim right.
		
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Highlighted parts totally wrong!  :rant::sbox: 

In Gareth's case the setup at target; swing in-to-out is probably what he has been doing (or at least setting up quite right enough).  

*It's Face Angle that affects the initial direction most* as Cochrane and Stobbs wrote in 1967/68 and Trackman/Flightscope proved a little while ago!

G, D and A could all be the same swing (In to Out relative to Target), but with Club-face Closed to Path and Open, Straight, Closed to Target respectively. 

Your Flight (D) is because of an In-to-Out swing with the Face aligned to the Target. You are correct that you need to aim right (adjust your 'aiming target') with same swing though.

There are much better explanations elsewhere - simply Google 'New Ball Flight Laws'!


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## DaveM (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			See, I've always called that a draw.

Anything starting right and moving back left being a push draw(?)






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C &G are a draw and a fade respectively.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

DaveM said:



			C &G are a draw and a fade respectively.
		
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Er. No!  Fade and Draw resp!


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



*but if you are hitting it straight and its going left its not a draw*.... unless you are aiming left

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Yes it is! At least that's what 'D' in the diagram is. Hitting it Straight and it Going Left - as in Straight Left ('B' in the chart above) IS a Pull though.

Think 1. Where does it start (D=Straight;B=Left); 2. What does it do in the flight (D=Draw;B=Straight (Pull)).


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## DaveM (Aug 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Er. No!  Fade and Draw resp!
		
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Lol I'm a lefty so it is for me.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

DaveM said:



			Lol I'm a lefty so it is for me.
		
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Read the Title of the Chart then!!!!


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## the_coach (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			See, I've always called that a draw.

Anything starting right and moving back left being a push draw(?)






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What you describe as the real good shot to the par 3 is a draw, & how you'd set up for a draw is how you describe. Getting the draw is totally taken care of in the set-up at address with both the club face & the body's alignment, you just swing the same as you would for any full shot, there's no hans, wrists, forearms manipulation necessary. You set-up a little ways differently then swing normally as you did hence the good outcome.

A draw has to always start to the right of the 0Âº target line & works back to the 0Âº target line. A draw can never start to the left of the 0Âº target line.
A fade has to always start to the left of the 0Âº target line & works back to the 0Âº target line. A fade can never start to the right of the 0Âº target line.

Given that is true, which it is. There is no such shot as a pull draw - that's a pull hook of varying degrees of hook depending how big the curvature is. Or a push fade, that's a push slice of varying degrees of slice depending how big the curvature is.

Likewise there is a fade, not a pull fade, there is a draw, not a push draw.


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## the_coach (Aug 6, 2014)

[video=youtube_share;shMrz6vKVcA]http://youtu.be/shMrz6vKVcA[/video]


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## the_coach (Aug 6, 2014)

[video=youtube_share;516tSNfIBDs]http://youtu.be/516tSNfIBDs[/video]


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## richy (Aug 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Highlighted parts totally wrong!  :rant::sbox: 

In Gareth's case the setup at target; swing in-to-out is probably what he has been doing (or at least setting up quite right enough).  

*It's Face Angle that affects the initial direction most* as Cochrane and Stobbs wrote in 1967/68 and Trackman/Flightscope proved a little while ago!

G, D and A could all be the same swing (In to Out relative to Target), but with Club-face Closed to Path and Open, Straight, Closed to Target respectively. 

Your Flight (D) is because of an In-to-Out swing with the Face aligned to the Target. You are correct that you need to aim right (adjust your 'aiming target') with same swing though.

There are much better explanations elsewhere - simply Google 'New Ball Flight Laws'!
		
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Simmer down, you'll do yourself a small mischief. Someone has already made him aware


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

richy said:



			Simmer down, you'll do yourself a small mischief. Someone has already made him aware
		
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Thanks for your concern, but - No Thanks! Happy to do him a large mischief if that gets the message across better though.


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## patricks148 (Aug 6, 2014)

Google boy is at it again, luckily i have him on block so can't see his cutting and pasting handy work:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Since I took up the game in 2010, I've always hit the ball pretty straight or with a slight fade.

As I've had lessons and my swing has begun to change I've started to hit more draws than anything else.

As a result I'm tending to miss my target left. Not by much, only usually a few yards, but have a question for you knowledgeable lot:

How do you aim for a particular shot?

As an example. You're hitting into a par 3. The pin is placed in the middle of a big, flat green as you look. If you play a consistent draw as your usual (Read as natural) shot:

Do you aim the clubface to your target, your target being the pin in the middle of the green, and align your body parallel to that line?

Or 

Do you aim the clubface and body just a little right of the target (Flag stick) to allow for the curve back?

With the opposite applying for a fade.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts/opinions on aiming or allowing for a particular shot shape and how best to aim.

Any thoughts, as always, are welcome :thup:
		
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Blimey - I didn't realise there was so much thinking involved 

Guess I normally aim down the middle on par fours/5's and then normally have a very gentle draw but on the odd occasion can throw in a gentle fade.

Par threes I normally just aim a touch left of the pin and get a gentle fade with short irons - longer irons it's normally straight or the odd gentle draw 

Or mainly just tee it up and hit it - feet always try and point towards the pin - it maybe totally wrong but I use my arms and roll them slightly when hitting drivers


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Google boy is at it again, luckily i have him on block so can't see his cutting and pasting handy work:rofl:
		
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Who are you talking about ?


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

the_coach said:



			A draw has to always start to the right of the 0Âº target line & works back to the 0Âº target line. A draw can never start to the left of the 0Âº target line.
A fade has to always start to the left of the 0Âº target line & works back to the 0Âº target line. A fade can never start to the right of the 0Âº target line.

Given that is true, which it is. There is no such shot as a pull draw - that's a pull hook of varying degrees of hook depending how big the curvature is. Or a push fade, that's a push slice of varying degrees of slice depending how big the curvature is.

Likewise there is a fade, not a pull fade, there is a draw, not a push draw.
		
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I disagree!! A first I think!

To me, a Slice is a large, possibly excessive Fade and a Hook is a large, possibly excessive Draw. The shapes (Hook/Draw or Slice/Fade) are the same and the attributes of the Club face and Path are the same - it's just a matter of scale whether it's the Draw/Fade or Hook/Slice.

It's quite acceptable to call a huge Right to Left shot that starts way right of the Target a Hook - around a tree for example.

What is required is a common, or at least agreed, set of terms. Those in the chart - from one of the many examples of 'New Ball Flight Laws' seem eminently acceptable and quite descriptive. That's not to say that a Pull Draw (or Push Fade) is a good or desirable shot, but it certainly describes it!

And it's a pretty standard set of descriptions. Even Jim McLean uses it - though, typically, he seems to claim he discovered/invented them!


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## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

the_coach said:



			[video=youtube_share;516tSNfIBDs]http://youtu.be/516tSNfIBDs[/video]
		
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Silly question.

When making a swing using this method I take it you swing along your toe line?


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## Spuddy (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Silly question.

When making a swing using this method I take it you swing along your toe line?
		
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 By the look of it (and I'm learning here myself), if your natural swing is in to out then you might end up aiming left with your toe line but your swing path might be more along the line of the club face and the ball will go straight left along this line.  In that case you would need to have your toe line further left to end up with a swing path that is out to in relative to the face angle.

please someone tell me I'm understanding this right now!


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## garyinderry (Aug 6, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Silly question.

When making a swing using this method I take it you swing along your toe line?
		
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silly indeed!    yes swing left.    its something I have been working on.


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## the_coach (Aug 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I disagree!! A first I think!

To me, a Slice is a large, possibly excessive Fade and a Hook is a large, possibly excessive Draw. The shapes (Hook/Draw or Slice/Fade) are the same and the attributes of the Club face and Path are the same - it's just a matter of scale whether it's the Draw/Fade or Hook/Slice.

It's quite acceptable to call a huge Right to Left shot that starts way right of the Target a Hook - around a tree for example.

What is required is a common, or at least agreed, set of terms. Those in the chart - from one of the many examples of 'New Ball Flight Laws' seem eminently acceptable and quite descriptive. That's not to say that a Pull Draw (or Push Fade) is a good or desirable shot, but it certainly describes it!

And it's a pretty standard set of descriptions. Even Jim McLean uses it - though, typically, he seems to claim he discovered/invented them! 

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Ok for you to disagree. But a shot that starts in direction to the right of the ball target line then doesn't just return to target but then goes past to the left by any kind of differing distances it is an overdraw, not a hook.

A draw can't start in any other direction except right of the ball target line, it doesn't start straight on line, it doesn't start left of the ball target line.
The opposite is true of a fade.

A ball the starts left of target line then curves to varying degrees to the left is a pull hook.

No such beast as a pull draw, or push fade like the unicorn they don't exist. To be any part of a pull it has to start left of the target line the swing path is out to in has to be just in the case of a pull hook there's some kind of closed face at collision, to be a draw the ball has to start right the swing path has to be some degrees in to out the face open to target line but closed to path, you can't hit a hook with those attributes to path & face angle. 
A fade/draw is a very specific controlled curvature with very defined club face angles & swing paths, with a very tightly defined ratio one to the other, face angle to path. There is a very defined way of consistently producing either shape as the empirical launch monitor data has proven.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

the_coach said:



			...To be any part of a pull it has to start left of the target line the swing path is out to in has to be just in the case of a pull hook there's some kind of closed face at collision....
		
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An in-to-out (I2O) swing can produce a pull as well - as long as the face is 'pointing' left of the Target. It is, of course, going to produce a larger Draw than if the swing was O2I, so there is more likelihood of a Hook - depending on the actual numbers involved, but these may actually be small/marginal.

And it's also important to define what 'Target' means - whether it's where you want the ball to end up (the pin for example) or where you set your alignment up in order to produce the desired shape - the 'aiming target'. In fact, it matters not what you call any particular shot, as long as there is definition/agreement about what they are. The terms Push and Pull do have slightly unfortunate implications that it is primarily the action of the swing that is causing them to by pushed or pulled.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2014)

To add to my above post....

This article probably has (one of) the best overall info on the issues.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Note the comment about Nicklaus and Trevino being Push Faders. That demonstrates the difference between the 2 'Targets'. In the Trevino case mentioned, his 'aiming target' is (say) 20* left of his real target - the pin - and he swings with clubface open (say) 10* and (say) 5* in-to-out. The ball starts off 10* right of his aiming target (still 10* left of his real one) and fades the rest of that to his real target - the pin. (Oh and he hopped around quite a bit too! ). Nicklaus was the same, but the numbers were considerably smaller! 

The difference between a Push-Fade and a Pull-Fade is whether the Club-face is Open or Closed to the aiming target. If Open, then an in-to-out swing *can/should* be made (but by not more than the face is open); If closed, then an Out-to-in *must* be made!

And Sean Foley certainly had Tiger hitting a Push-Fade!


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## the_coach (Aug 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			To add to my above post....

This article probably has (one of) the best overall info on the issues.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Note the comment about Nicklaus and Trevino being Push Faders. That demonstrates the difference between the 2 'Targets'. In the Trevino case mentioned, his 'aiming target' is (say) 20* left of his real target - the pin - and he swings with clubface open (say) 10* and (say) 5* in-to-out. The ball starts off 10* right of his aiming target (still 10* left of his real one) and fades the rest of that to his real target - the pin. (Oh and he hopped around quite a bit too! ). Nicklaus was the same, but the numbers were considerably smaller! 

The difference between a Push-Fade and a Pull-Fade is whether the Club-face is Open or Closed to the aiming target. If Open, then an in-to-out swing *can/should* be made (but by not more than the face is open); If closed, then an Out-to-in *must* be made!

And Sean Foley certainly had Tiger hitting a Push-Fade!
		
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As before, a fade has to start left of target & fade back to target, a fade has to be hit with a closed to target line face but open to the path. Both Trevino & Nicklaus would have had to start their ball flight to the left of their intended target. 

Tiger was swinging left, club face closed to target line, open to swing path, ball starting left of end target line, he was hitting fades if he got it down correctly, hitting slices or pulls if he got it wrong.

A pull has to start left of target, a draw has to start right of target, the dichotomy in a "pull draw" fairly plain to see, opposite but the same is found in that a push has to start right of the target, a fade has to start left of the target.


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## ScienceBoy (Aug 6, 2014)

If you are doing it properly you should be aiming AT your target and the ball sets off right and returns to target.

If you have to aim right to compensate then something is wrong.


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## One Planer (Aug 6, 2014)

ScienceBoy said:



			If you are doing it properly you should be aiming AT your target and the ball sets off right and returns to target.

If you have to aim right to compensate then something is wrong.
		
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Out of curiosity, did you watch the videos Coach posted?


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2014)

the_coach said:



			As before, a fade has to start left of target & fade back to target, a fade has to be hit with a closed to target line face but open to the path. Both Trevino & Nicklaus would have had to start their ball flight to the left of their intended target. 

Tiger was swinging left, club face closed to target line, open to swing path, ball starting left of end target line, he was hitting fades if he got it down correctly, hitting slices or pulls if he got it wrong.

A pull has to start left of target, a draw has to start right of target, the dichotomy in a "pull draw" fairly plain to see, opposite but the same is found in that a push has to start right of the target, a fade has to start left of the target.
		
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It would appear that we simply have a different definition of 'target'!

Yours appears to be the place where the player wants the ball to end up.

Mine - and I believe the one in the chart/description - is the point at which the body is aligned - the reference point or 'aiming target', where a straight/straight swing would send the ball (Trevino's 20* Left point in the article)


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## Odvan (Aug 7, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			i've only recently started hitting fades with a closed club face (to target line) then swinging well left.   aiming a little left of target line.
		
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Taught you everything you know....


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## garyinderry (Aug 7, 2014)

I would still be chopping and praying for a fade now if it wasn't for your genius ! :whoo:


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