# Hahahahahahaha - Aimpoint



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 10, 2017)

Just watched Homer's video on aimpoint. Seriously??  Guess the slope with your feet, guess how far to hold out your fingers due to the guess you have made about how quick the green is.

Snake oil for people that can't read greens!


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## guest100718 (May 10, 2017)

AH D4S starts another thread and runs away


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 10, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			AH D4S starts another thread and runs away
		
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Boo! Still here

Have you got anything constructive to add?


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## Pin-seeker (May 10, 2017)

Why did you watch it?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 10, 2017)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why did you watch it?
		
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To confirm my suspicions


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## guest100718 (May 10, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Boo! Still here

Have you got anything constructive to add?
		
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Have you?


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## Pin-seeker (May 10, 2017)

drive4show said:



			To confirm my suspicions
		
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And then you just had to start a thread about it.
Hilarious &#128563;


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## Pin-seeker (May 10, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			Have you?
		
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Sorry Paddy but I think we're all suppose to laugh at Homer on this thread.


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## guest100718 (May 10, 2017)

Pin-seeker said:



			And then you just had to start a thread about it.
Hilarious &#63027;
		
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He's a troll


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## glynntaylor (May 10, 2017)

Ive watched Homer videos before...however...IMO and if it was me I would not of uploaded this. 

Even Peter Finch has commented saying he would not be uploading videos on this as its down to the specalist and not "qualified" to do as such. 

I see this being a sticky subject and video...

Just going to grab me popcorn


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## Norrin Radd (May 10, 2017)

i havent watched Homers video or seen anyone using aimpoint so cant really say much about it ,the only thing i have seen is Adam Scott use it on tv .my personal feeling which is probably miles off the mark is ,that its not going to help me as it is purely guess work ,which my green reading is based on anyway. obviously some people will find a small gain in using it the same as any new method will,after all we are all different and some not find any use for it at all.
 all i will say is, have anyone who is currently using Aimpoint as a green reading method seen their putting stats improve enough to reduce their h/cap ,


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## palindromicbob (May 10, 2017)

The timing of that horn on the practice green is hilarious.


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## Tiger man (May 10, 2017)

Shock horror, more Homer bashing. .


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## ruff-driver (May 10, 2017)

palindromicbob said:



			The timing of that horn on the practice green is hilarious.
		
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D4S driving past ?


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## garyinderry (May 10, 2017)

The green speed is known.  The rest I'm not sure you can. 

I'd like to see it done but won't pay 100quid for the privilege. 

Pulling out books and charts seems a bit much and could be banned if green reading books go so it will only be the express read allowed. 

Looking forward to seeing homers video when I get home.  Fair play for making it anyway chap.


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## hovis (May 10, 2017)

where can i see the video


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## BTatHome (May 10, 2017)

Norrin Radd said:



			i havent watched Homers video or seen anyone using aimpoint so cant really say much about it ,the only thing i have seen is Adam Scott use it on tv .my personal feeling which is probably miles off the mark is ,that its not going to help me as it is purely guess work ,which my green reading is based on anyway. obviously some people will find a small gain in using it the same as any new method will,after all we are all different and some not find any use for it at all.
 all i will say is, *have anyone who is currently using Aimpoint as a green reading method seen their putting stats improve enough to reduce their h/cap* ,
		
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same question could be asked for anybody that has bought a driver/irons/wedges/putter too .... usually nobody asks about that though


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## Beezerk (May 10, 2017)

hovis said:



			where can i see the video
		
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Don't do it mate, that's 12 minutes and 46 seconds I'll never get back.


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## USER1999 (May 10, 2017)

Given that my club doesnt publish the green speeds, and even when they do, which is rare, its mainly lies and rubbish, i cant see how aim point would work. May be i need to buy a stimp. But in any case, my putting is the least of my issues. Aim point to me makes as much sense as the clock method of pitching. Either you can do it by feel, or you do it poorly by mechanics.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 10, 2017)

hovis said:



			where can i see the video
		
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His Youtube site is in his signature block.


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## Green Bay Hacker (May 10, 2017)

That would be total gobbledygook to me. I have enough thoughts going round in my head on the course without that. However, if it helps other people then good luck to them as golf is all about confidence in your game.


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## brendy (May 10, 2017)

Tiered greens, double or more breakers, the list goes on, Aimpoint is a crutch imo. Weaker putters need belief above their own confidence in their game, similar to crazy preshot routines, if ability isn't there in the first place then no amount of posturing and fingers up will help.
3 putts at your home course and missing on the am side each time is not a good advert for this hoodoo neither.


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## Bazzatron (May 10, 2017)

Tiger man said:



			Shock horror, more Homer bashing. .
		
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Yeah just for a change.


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## Dasit (May 10, 2017)

Not a fan of all the Homer bullying on this site.

Surprised the mods have not dealt with the constant offenders.


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## SugarPenguin (May 10, 2017)

well this seems a bit harsh. 

Pretty low pal making a thread like this....


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## tsped83 (May 10, 2017)

Don't think this thread to draw Homer out is necessary, however, having watched a bit of his video I do conclude that Aimpoint is utter ballsocks for those incapable of reading a green.


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## brendy (May 10, 2017)

Thread started about aimpoint being nonsense,  the rest, make what you will, aimpoint is nonsense though.
For the record, if an amateur mid handicap golfer decides to start a blog, record and link YouTube videos and post on a public forum then he has to expect the positive AND the negative.


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## Hosel Fade (May 11, 2017)

garyinderry said:



*The green speed is known.*  The rest I'm not sure you can. 

I'd like to see it done but won't pay 100quid for the privilege. 

Pulling out books and charts seems a bit much and could be banned if green reading books go so it will only be the express read allowed. 

Looking forward to seeing homers video when I get home.  Fair play for making it anyway chap.
		
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Not so sure about this. Its a constant subject of willy waving to the point of being able to take 1.5' off whatever speed somewhere will say their greens are you are then close.


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

Someone said there is nonsense being said, their is, and it comes from those who don't know.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

Golf can be a contrary game, with some very weird swings, e.g. Jim Furyk. Putting has its own niche in quirky and uniqueness. You've only got to ask yourself the question, how did Nichlaus win so many Majors with that putting style?

If Aimpoint works for someone, then it has a place in this frustrating game.

As to Homer's YouTube piece; I gave up before halfway. Don't give up the day job Martin...


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## Imurg (May 11, 2017)

If part of the point of this video is to show that Aimpoint doesn't slow things down, it fails.
Obviously, in a real scenario, tees wouldn't be put in the ground to show the line - it was done on the practice green, don't do it on the 1st green, walk up to the green, do the read and hit the putt.
I'm far from convinced by it and I'm not knocking anyone who is, but I don't think I'd spend the time and the money doing a course on it.
Any of the putts that Homer showed, I suspect, any half decent player could have had a quick look at the line and left a tap-in, especially on a green that's been played a thousand times....
I think I've only seen 1 course publish green speeds - is it common?
And I'm far from convinced I could feel a gradient that moves a ball 6 inches over a distance of 20+ feet.


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## Slab (May 11, 2017)

To borrow a line from another youtube clip: Crash, bang, wallop, what a video! 
(thanks to Alan Partridge) 

Iâ€™ve seen lots of threads on aimpoint on GM but even after reading them I was pretty clueless so just enjoyed the banter without getting involved 

On the plus side I now know why aimpoint users stick their fingers in the air, although how one or two degrees of slope through your feet can even remotely transpose accurately to one or two fingers left/right of the pin is still a mystery (leaving aside the apparent superhuman skill of accurately feeling a few degrees of slope through bare feet let alone socks and shoes) and Iâ€™m saying this as a player that will on occasion walk alongside my line to get an indication of break (but thatâ€™s all it is, an indication, not a numerical value)
I don't doubt that after tuition lots of practice will improve that skill

Anyway, surely a fat fingered bloke (thatâ€™s a bloke with fat fingers, rather thanâ€¦) is going to overestimate the break that his skinny fingered friend would, on exactly the same putt?
And what happens on cold/hot days when a players fingers shrink or swell etc!

So for the above educational reason alone it was worth a watch

For our intrepid presenter, I don't really mind the extreme amateurish presenting, its quite entertaining, but Homer please get a wireless mic for use in your videos, it was cringeworthy when you walked away and kept talking 
I canâ€™t decide if youâ€™re a well-meaning, well-intentioned guy that just loves to talk about his passion or a guy who just loves the sound of his own voice and thinks the world needs an opportunity to hear itâ€¦ but as long as your happy donâ€™t ever change  

Back to aimpoint, I watched a putting tutorial video once about how amateurs donâ€™t correctly identify (& subsequently fail to aim for) the absolute apex of the break (basically too many of us assume the apex will be the near the mid-point between ball & hole when itâ€™s often not) and the putt invariably falls to the low side more often than not & that really made sense to me, and I can see that fault happening in this video

In summary, thanks for putting it up Homer but I think I'm happier to focus on the apex point and aim for that & remain clueless re aimpoint (and to borrow a line from this video)â€¦ 'Iâ€™ll give it two fingers'


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## HawkeyeMS (May 11, 2017)

Tiger man said:



			Shock horror, more Homer bashing. .
		
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Er, it is actually aimpoint bashing not Homer bashing.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 11, 2017)

It's not for me but each to their own, and if you feel it gives you confidence or help putting then why not?


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

The Aimpoint Circus came to our club back in 2015 and I was intrigued by the pre visit hype and the blurb on the flyers etc.

Come the big day I never went along (I thought it was horrendously overpriced and I'm pretty happy with my own putting anyway) but I then got to see what it was up close and personal via my Pro who had adopted it subsequently.

In my opinion (I'm no expert so obviously my opinion means nothing) I think the concept is utter guff. 

I don't see anyone at our place doing it on the course now some 2 years on and apart from Adam Scott (and one LPGA player whose name I can't recall) I couldn't name any tour players doing it.

Putting is a personal thing and (IMO) more than any other area of the game requires a lot of feel and natural ability. 

If Aimpoimt works for some then fair dos but I'm struggling on and relying on my own meagre ability.


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## Capella (May 11, 2017)

I am sure Aimpoint (or rather Aimpoint Express, which is the stuff they do now with the fingers ... the original Aimpoint was much much slower and more tedious with several complicated tables you had to consult ... it was invented by a software developer, which tells you probably all you need to now about it) works for most people. For a while. As would anything else you did before putting which occupies your mind. gives you confidence over the putt und keeps your conscious thought from interfering with your actual putting stroke. It helps you to commit to a putt, not more, not less. Your subconscious, whoknows the break of the green much better than the conscious part of your brain ever could, will then take over and do its job. We all judge slopes with our feet more than with our eyes, with every step we take. We are bipeds on a planet with gravity, we would topple over otherwise. It is something our brain is incredibly good at. I am pretty certain that most people who struggle "reading breaks" are either overthinking it or they are simply not putting on the line they think they are putting on.


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## snell (May 11, 2017)

I remember a while back you calling out Johnny Dee for starting stupid threads....


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## bobmac (May 11, 2017)

Oh dear Homer, you were doing so well until you missed that putt because you pulled it.
Shame you couldn't insert a 'take 2'


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## Smiffy (May 11, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Shame you couldn't insert a 'take 2'
		
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Or something.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 11, 2017)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Er, it is actually aimpoint bashing not Homer bashing.
		
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Correct!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 11, 2017)

SugarPenguin said:



			well this seems a bit harsh. 

Pretty low pal making a thread like this....
		
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Why? People often discuss aimpoint on here but those that practice it are quite secretive about how it works. Homer has posted a video explaining it (fair play to him) and I have now seen for myself what a load of rubbish it is (my opinion). At no point in this thread have I had a go at Homer.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Just watched Homer's video on aimpoint. Seriously??  Guess the slope with your feet, guess how far to hold out your fingers due to the guess you have made about how quick the green is.

Snake oil for people that can't read greens!
		
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Curiousity got the better of me and watched it to see the "explanation" - have seen it in action with a FC using it once and couldn't see the benefits and once again watching that video I still don't see it - I would expect 99% of people could get that read and in half the time.

If that video comes up on a google search for "Aimpoint" then I expect the guy who runs the courses etc won't be best pleased because it's a video that doesn't show it up in great light at all.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Why? People often discuss aimpoint on here but those that practice it are quite secretive about how it works. Homer has posted a video explaining it (fair play to him) and I have now seen for myself what a load of rubbish it is (my opinion). At no point in this thread have I had a go at Homer.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Curiousity got the better of me and watched it to see the "explanation" - have seen it in action with a FC using it once and couldn't see the benefits and once again watching that video I still don't see it - I would expect 99% of people could get that read and in half the time.

If that video comes up on a google search for "Aimpoint" then I expect the guy who runs the courses etc won't be best pleased because it's a video that doesn't show it up in great light at all.
		
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:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Given that some of the world's top male and female golfers use it, including Adam Scott and Justin Rose, I think it does have merit and I was quite happy to pay and do the course to see for myself. 

If you have a defect in your game, let's just say that your chipping is way below standard and is preventing you from obtaining a lower handicap, you may choose to use a method of some guru to better what you do, of it works and you improve - brilliant, but it's, for you, not Snake oil! 

HJS'S video isn't Mark Crosfield and doesn't show the technique as I was taught it but there are a million ways to play golf and finding what does and doesn't work is, bye and large, trial and error - just ask Tiger Woods!


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## Dan2501 (May 11, 2017)

Out of 3 putts. 2 missed low, and the other looked like it was destined to miss low if it had the pace. Not the best advert for the system. Homer says it's a "very accurate system" though, so I don't know what to believe.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Dan2501 said:



			Out of 3 putts. 2 missed low, and the other looked like it was destined to miss low if it had the pace. Not the best advert for the system. Homer says it's a "very accurate system" though, so I don't know what to believe.
		
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the system is dedigned to help you read the line of the putt, it doesn't teach you to hit the ball on the desired line


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## Smiffy (May 11, 2017)

Dan2501 said:



			Out of 3 putts. 2 missed low, and the other looked like it was destined to miss low if it had the pace.
		
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I'd give my eye teeth for accuracy like that.....


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## irip (May 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I'd give my eye teeth for accuracy like that.....
		
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You already go it pal


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## MendieGK (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Why? People often discuss aimpoint on here but those that practice it are quite secretive about how it works. Homer has posted a video explaining it (fair play to him) and I have now seen for myself what a load of rubbish it is (my opinion). At no point in this thread have I had a go at Homer.
		
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Gordon I'd be able to show you it properly. But you'd be too busy thinning wedges through greens with your dodgy short game &#128521;


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 11, 2017)

MendieGK said:



			Gordon I'd be able to show you it properly. But you'd be too busy thinning wedges through greens with your dodgy short game &#128521;
		
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I only have to worry about aimpoint if I can get on the green and still have a putt for a point. Paying for the course is a waste of time for me, I'm better off spending the money on new wedges :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Last time out I had a 30ft downhill putt.  The first 25ft the putt ran dead straight - then in the last 5ft or so I could see that the putt would start to catch the variable slope 'throw-off' from a greenside bunker and dive steeply downhill to the hole. But it would only be right if the putt was almost dead slow and three feet or so to the right of the hole when it hit that slope.  I'm really not sure that a method that part relies upon my feet sensing the slope would work for that.  Maybe... 

But each to his own - as long as it doesn't take all day.

Note - I'd also like to mention that I read it and played it perfectly - and the ball dropped slap-bang perfect pace into the middle of the hole for a 2 (and Â£22 in the two's).


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

I may have the answer for everyone on the thread - both sides of the divide.:thup:

I've been working now for a year on my own new revolutionary putting method.

BUMPOINT 

It works like this.

Approach your ball on the green and squat above it with your bum hovering directly over it.

Say this mantra: "I'm not in a rut and I won't miss this putt" 5 times.

Next point your bum towards the hole, hop on your right foot once (obviously your left if you're left-handed) touch your nose with your pencil twice and then make the stroke.

And trust me here - you're gonna be amazed.:whoo:


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## dufferman (May 11, 2017)

I use aimpoint express. I usually only use it when I can see a break but maybe am not sure on how much of a break there is. I also stand close to the hole to read, to catch any break in the last few foot of the putt.

It works for me, it doesn't take any more time than someone reading a putt from both sides of the hole.

Once you've got used to it it becomes second nature. It's ok if people think it's rubbish. If I get my putts closer than I used to I'm happy!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 11, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			I may have the answer for everyone on the thread - both sides of the divide.:thup:

I've been working now for a year on my own new revolutionary putting method.

BUMPOINT 

It works like this.

Approach your ball on the green and squat above it with your bum hovering directly over it.

Say this mantra: "I'm not in a rut and I won't miss this putt" 5 times.

Next point your bum towards the hole, hop on your right foot once (obviously your left if you're left-handed) touch your nose with your pencil twice and then make the stroke.

And trust me here - you're gonna be amazed.:whoo:
		
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Sounds good to me Johnny but does it slow down play?


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## ruff-driver (May 11, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			I may have the answer for everyone on the thread - both sides of the divide.:thup:

I've been working now for a year on my own new revolutionary putting method.

BUMPOINT 

It works like this.

Approach your ball on the green and squat above it with your bum hovering directly over it.

Say this mantra: "I'm not in a rut and I won't miss this putt" 5 times.

Next point your bum towards the hole, hop on your right foot once (obviously your left if you're left-handed) touch your nose with your pencil twice and then make the stroke.

And trust me here - you're gonna be amazed.:whoo:
		
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Will you be doing classes at forest pines ?


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## garyinderry (May 11, 2017)

The first thing you do is stand half way to the hole and feel the slope being careful not to stand on your line. 

Newsflash.   You've pretty much read the line by this point otherwise you would mostly likely step on it. 

The only thing I can see after this is it may fine tune for you exactly how much break u want to give it. 

This again can only be simple guesswork as your hand cannot be the same distance from you and impossible to hold out infront of you in the same place every time relative to you head and eye line. Thats before we include fat and thin fingers. 

Is it fool proof. Clearly not.  Is there any merit. Probably if you know what you are doing.  

Pros spend an age over every putt.  You may as well do this along with an old school eye read and see if they are similar. I'd imagine they would be.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Given that some of the world's top male and female golfers use it, including Adam Scott and Justin Rose, I think it does have merit and I was quite happy to pay and do the course to see for myself. 

If you have a defect in your game, let's just say that your chipping is way below standard and is preventing you from obtaining a lower handicap, you may choose to use a method of some guru to better what you do, of it works and you improve - brilliant, but it's, for you, not Snake oil! 

HJS'S video isn't Mark Crosfield and doesn't show the technique as I was taught it but there are a million ways to play golf and finding what does and doesn't work is, bye and large, trial and error - just ask Tiger Woods!
		
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The one thing that stops Adam Scott from challenging week in week out - his putting , not a great advert

Rose - continuely struggles with his putting changing methods and putters continually 

The top Lady golfers also have their caddy read and line them up as well.

Maybe a 1% using it if that - if Aimpoint users were winning week in week out and it was down to their putting them it could be used as tick in the box for the method - but that's not really the case. 

I suspect it's more a placebo type thing - it makes people believe they can read putts more but would not be surprised you and anyone using aimpoint would be able to get the same read using any other method


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Sounds good to me Johnny but does it slow down play? 

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Working on an express version next.ðŸ‘



ruff-driver said:



			Will you be doing classes at forest pines ?
		
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Â£35.00 each but  Â£25 if I can get you all interested ðŸ˜€


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I only have to worry about aimpoint if I can get on the green and still have a putt for a point. Paying for the course is a waste of time for me, I'm better off spending the money on new wedges :thup:
		
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It's not the wedges Gordon!


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## ger147 (May 11, 2017)

dufferman said:



			I use aimpoint express. I usually only use it when I can see a break but maybe am not sure on how much of a break there is. I also stand close to the hole to read, to catch any break in the last few foot of the putt.

It works for me, it doesn't take any more time than someone reading a putt from both sides of the hole.

Once you've got used to it it becomes second nature. It's ok if people think it's rubbish. If I get my putts closer than I used to I'm happy!
		
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I use it too, from a maximum distance of about 12-15 feet. I find it particularly good for shorter putts i.e. 6 feet and in.

My putting has improved at the start of this season and my handicap has already fallen by 1 shot so far but I wouldn't put that down to Aim Point, it's just a different method of reading putts that I'm finding is particularly accurate for shorter distance reads.


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing that stops Adam Scott from challenging week in week out - his putting , not a great advert

Rose - continuely struggles with his putting changing methods and putters continually 

The top Lady golfers also have their caddy read and line them up as well.

Maybe a 1% using it if that - if Aimpoint users were winning week in week out and it was down to their putting them it could be used as tick in the box for the method - but that's not really the case. 

I suspect it's more a placebo type thing - it makes people believe they can read putts more but would not be surprised you and anyone using aimpoint would be able to get the same read using any other method
		
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Not sure whether Scott using it is a 'negative' or a 'positive' for Aimpoint! It does show that he is determined (desperate?) to improve his putting - and seems to have done so, even after returning to a short putter. Aimpoint could well have helped - even simply by giving him more confidence!

Lydia Ko is one of, if not THE, best putters on LPGA Tour! She uses Aimpoint - so that's probably a 'big plus' for it! And Yes, she was 'winning week in, week out' (last year) and putting was a major reason!


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## Region3 (May 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing that stops Adam Scott from challenging week in week out - his putting , not a great advert

Rose - continuely struggles with his putting changing methods and putters continually
		
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But are they bad putters or bad green readers?




Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe a 1% using it if that - if Aimpoint users were winning week in week out and it was down to their putting them it could be used as tick in the box for the method - but that's not really the case.
		
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Lydia Ko?

World number 1 since Feb '15 and a scoring average under 70. From what I've seen putting is the best part of her game, and you can't say it's the caddie because she replaces them more often than her wedges!


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## Region3 (May 11, 2017)

I am definitely not pro Aimpoint, but it does make me giggle some of the comments rubbishing it.

It's physics. If you know the variables involved then physics can pretty much guarantee (barring bobbles) the path the ball will travel along. Knowing those variables is the tricky bit and the degree of slope is only one of those things. Even if you get all that right you still have to hit the ball on your intended line at your intended speed. So it's difficult, and may or may not help some people, but to say the concept is flawed is akin to saying those NASA dudes are just guessing where Saturn will be when their probe reaches it.


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## Liverbirdie (May 11, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			I may have the answer for everyone on the thread - both sides of the divide.:thup:

I've been working now for a year on my own new revolutionary putting method.

BUMPOINT 

It works like this.

Approach your ball on the green and squat above it with your bum hovering directly over it.

Say this mantra: "I'm not in a rut and I won't miss this putt" 5 times.

Next point your bum towards the hole, hop o<script id="gpt-impl-0.038331801095692064" src="https://securepubads.g.doubleclick.net/gpt/pubads_impl_116.js"></script>n your right foot once (obviously your left if you're left-handed) touch your nose with your pencil twice and then make the stroke.

And trust me here - you're gonna be amazed.:whoo:
		
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I wanna see a video of it, before committing my "only $99, direct to your door ", thank you very much.

PS - don't miss the putts, or I'm not buying it!

if I'm not convinced, I'm going for aimpoint lite, for the slimmers amongst us.:thup:


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing that stops Adam Scott from challenging week in week out - his putting , not a great advert

Rose - continuely struggles with his putting changing methods and putters continually 

The top Lady golfers also have their caddy read and line them up as well.

Maybe a 1% using it if that - if Aimpoint users were winning week in week out and it was down to their putting them it could be used as tick in the box for the method - but that's not really the case. 

I suspect it's more a placebo type thing - it makes people believe they can read putts more but would not be surprised you and anyone using aimpoint would be able to get the same read using any other method
		
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And that's why people learn and do it. If you're an ace green reader you don't need it but for everyone else .....

There is clearly a scientific point to it but even if it's a placebo effect if I make a couple of putts a round more than I otherwise would have then why wouldn't I be happy with doing it. It does give me more confidence that I've judged the putt right and ive certainly spent more money on lessons that have done me no good at all on different parts of my game

Clearly Aimpointers  aren't going to win every week just like  good putter, say Jordan Spieth isn't winning, but it's a method that, if you buy into, is a further aid to better scores.


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## garyinderry (May 11, 2017)

Region3 said:



			I am definitely not pro Aimpoint, but it does make me giggle some of the comments rubbishing it.

It's physics. If you know the variables involved then physics can pretty much guarantee (barring bobbles) the path the ball will travel along. Knowing those variables is the tricky bit and the degree of slope is only one of those things. Even if you get all that right you still have to hit the ball on your intended line at your intended speed. So it's difficult, and may or may not help some people, but to say the concept is flawed is akin to saying those NASA dudes are just guessing where Saturn will be when their probe reaches it.
		
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Nasa definitely Aimpoints.


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## dufferman (May 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			I use it too, from a maximum distance of about 12-15 feet. I find it particularly good for shorter putts i.e. 6 feet and in.

My putting has improved at the start of this season and my handicap has already fallen by 1 shot so far but I wouldn't put that down to Aim Point, it's just a different method of reading putts that I'm finding is particularly accurate for shorter distance reads.
		
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Exactly. My putting is much better than it was, I was (am!) a rubbish reader of greens so using my feet to gauge the slope rather than the naked eye has me putting 100% better. 

I was at the Golf Monthly King of Kings day at Camberley Heath a few years ago, and my FC (I can't remember who it was!) had a putt next to mine. I read the putt as a slight left to right. He aimed 1ft right of the hole - opposite to what I had seen - and his putt either went in from 10 / 12 ft or came very close to. Luckily he had gone first, I copied his line and I too got close. It was at that point I knew unless I had a straight putt I just did not see green breaks very well. Aimpoint worked for me!

Also worth noting I didn't take the face to face course, I did the online course which (I think) was Â£50. I still have access to the video so can re-watch it whenever I wish. Well worth the Â£50 in my opinion, less than a new putter which is what most people would buy when their putting goes to pot!


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## Smiffy (May 11, 2017)

dufferman said:



			Well worth the Â£50 in my opinion, less than a new putter which is what most people would buy when their putting goes to pot!
		
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If my putting goes to pot during a round, I find that dragging my feet across the intended green using my spikes like a plough usually gets the angst out of me and I putt better from then on.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			And that's why people learn and do it. If you're an ace green reader you don't need it but for everyone else .....

There is clearly a scientific point to it but even if it's a placebo effect if I make a couple of putts a round more than I otherwise would have then why wouldn't I be happy with doing it. It does give me more confidence that I've judged the putt right and ive certainly spent more money on lessons that have done me no good at all on different parts of my game

Clearly Aimpointers  aren't going to win every week just like  good putter, say Jordan Spieth isn't winning, but it's a method that, if you buy into, is a further aid to better scores.
		
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Ever since I have heard about Aimpoint on here it's been like a dark art - people going on the course paying significant money and from i have seen there hasn't been many significant improvements Bar the odd one or two guys. People have asked how it works etc to maybe dispel myths etc so the OP does a video to dispel those myths and for me prob does more damage than good in regards the overall general feeling of Aimpoint. Maybe it's the way it's presented and demonstrated in the video ?


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

I did the Aimpoint Express course a few weeks back and love it. The number of one putts is going up, two putts are consistent and three putts are slowly being resigned to the past.

The comment about standing on your line, simply you don't. You gather the slope from standing astride you ball, if high side is right, that's the side you will putt down, so walk to a point down the left away from you line and determine the slope percentage, back to you ball, find your line and putt.

As long as you have a decent putting stroke (which has nowt to do with Aimpoint), can start your ball on the right line without pulling or pushing it and get the pace right, you'll sink the putt or be damn close.

It's very much a case of each to their own, I wasn't a bad putter before Aimpoint, but after it I'm getting a lot better. It may seem like snake oil to some, but when you line up a putt that you eyes and mind are telling you should not be that far left or right of the hole and then you set the ball away on that line and it drops or leaves you a tap in, there if definitely something in it.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ever since I have heard about Aimpoint on here it's been like a dark art - people going on the course paying significant money and from i have seen there hasn't been many significant improvements Bar the odd one or two guys. People have asked how it works etc to maybe dispel myths etc so the OP does a video to dispel those myths and for me prob does more damage than good in regards the overall general feeling of Aimpoint. Maybe it's the way it's presented and demonstrated in the video ?
		
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I'd be very happy to show you how it works Phil. 

It is definitely based on science and spawned from the putt line we all see on televised golf showing the correct line from ball to cup. It cost me the equivalent of a couple of hours lesson with a pro and ive made, or missed putts closer than I did before. I don't think its great for reading double breakers or the like but like Duffermans post I don't often misread putts and the direction they are likely to move. No, it's not goingto make me putt like Spieth but it is an aid that helps me.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			If my putting goes to pot during a round, I find that dragging my feet across the intended green using my spikes like a plough usually gets the angst out of me and I putt better from then on.
		
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Thats why you chucked the Stuart shoes - not a deep enough rut !


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## pokerjoke (May 11, 2017)

Although Homer is not the best talker he actually made it all sound quite simple.

It is obviously for people that cant read greens with their eyes and feel that the feet give them a better feel of slope,for me this would be my only reason for not trying it as my eyes and my green reading is good.

To be honest and blunt I would like Martins handicap to come down and really show us that his game really is improving not just from his putting but his chipping too as he says that's improved too,it really would be the proof that the changes he is making are working.

Lets be honest here as a lot pf people have played together from the forum and a lot of us need improving myself included.


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## Smiffy (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Thats why you chucked the Stuart shoes - not a deep enough rut !
		
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They were Stuburt. And you were right.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

Just a thought. If someone splashes out on Aimpoint, and then goes and practices and practices and practices what are they learning the most? My gut feel, and I may be doing it a disservice, is they are learning distance feel and they are learning to aim based on experience.

And if someone just did the practice, practice, practice bit I think they'd pretty much achieve the same thing. I would put money that a significant number of people who splash out on this probably didn't put in huge amounts of practice previously but thought they were bad putters because of what happened every Saturday. The main issue I've come across with all dodgy putters is length - leaving a 30ft putt 3ft short or 3ft long is a bigger issues than missing by 6" either side.

But if someone's continually missing from 2ft, or missing from 15ft... if it works for them, Brilliant.


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

Liverbirdie said:



			I wanna see a video of it, before committing my "only $99, direct to your door ", thank you very much.

PS - don't miss the putts, or I'm not buying it!

if I'm not convinced, I'm going for aimpoint lite, for the slimmers amongst us.:thup:
		
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You'll regret it! Because in true DFS style the special price is only until this coming Sunday after which I can't promise it won't double.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Not sure my feet and in-built 'sense' gives quite the same accuracy as a 3ft long spirit level - now that *would* give an accurate scientific measure of slope as an input to my decision making.  But the slope I measure is only accurate at the point I take the measurement.  And a single measurement is almost irrelevant if the slope changes along the line of the putt?  Surely?  No matter.

My putting improved measurably when I sorted a simple routine that I follow for every putt.  Have look down the line and gentle sway to left and right to get feel for any break and find an 'aimpoint' on the green for my line.  Take address position.  Three practice swings to get feel of the weight.  Address the ball.  Look to hole and back a couple of times to check my line. And hit it.  Repeat until the ball is in the hole 

I know it works.  So I just keep doing what I know works.  And it works.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			They were Stuburt. And you were right.
		
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Bliddy depiktiff tects!


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure my feet and in-built 'sense' gives quite the same accuracy as a 3ft long spirit level - now that *would* give an accurate scientific measure of slope as an input to my decision making.  But the slope I measure is only accurate at the point I take the measurement.  And a single measurement is almost irrelevant if the slope changes along the line of the putt?  Surely?  No matter.

My putting improved measurably when I sorted a simple routine that I follow for every putt.  Have look down the line and gentle sway to left and right to get feel for any break and find an 'aimpoint' on the green for my line.  Take address position.  Three practice swings to get feel of the weight.  Address the ball.  Look to hole and back a couple of times to check my line. And hit it.  Repeat until the ball is in the hole 

I know it works.  So I just keep doing what I know works.  And it works.
		
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It sounds a plausible method, I'll give you that - but the true secret to putting success is to be found in post #52. :thup:


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure my feet and in-built 'sense' gives quite the same accuracy as a 3ft long spirit level - now that *would* give an accurate scientific measure of slope as an input to my decision making.  But the slope I measure is only accurate at the point I take the measurement.  And a single measurement is almost irrelevant if the slope changes along the line of the putt?  Surely?  No matter.

My putting improved measurably when I sorted a simple routine that I follow for every putt.  Have look down the line and gentle sway to left and right to get feel for any break and find an 'aimpoint' on the green for my line.  Take address position.  Three practice swings to get feel of the weight.  Address the ball.  Look to hole and back a couple of times to check my line. And hit it.  Repeat until the ball is in the hole 

I know it works.  So I just keep doing what I know works.  And it works.
		
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You only do a single read on putts up to about 6 feet


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## Liverbirdie (May 11, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			You'll regret it! Because in true DFS style the special price is only until this coming Sunday after which I can't promise it won't double.
		
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Hah - nice try, I'll wait for the coming bank holiday, and get it even cheaper!


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## dufferman (May 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			If my putting goes to pot during a round, I find that dragging my feet across the intended green using my spikes like a plough usually gets the angst out of me and I putt better from then on.
		
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Whatever works for you. I always take my shoes off round the green, in case someone three groups behind me gets offended I stood on their intended line.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

dufferman said:



			Whatever works for you. I always take my shoes off round the green, in case someone three groups behind me gets offended I stood on their intended line.
		
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You did when you played with me - I was only offended by the Pong!   :thup:


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## dufferman (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			You did when you played with me - I was only offended by the Pong!   :thup:
		
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There's a joke about Ping and Pong in there somewhere, but I can't for the life of me think of it!!


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## dufferman (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			You did when you played with me - I was only offended by the Pong!   :thup:
		
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I also wear Table Tennis shoes to golf, cos my Ping's Pong.

Got it.


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## mcbroon (May 11, 2017)

Surely scientific measurement is only as good as the tools used to do the measuring? 

This is the bit I don't get - how do you measure the percentage of slope with your feet? I can see how it works on a large break but can your feet really discern the difference between a 2% and a 4% slope?

And to garyinderry's point, how can you be sure that you hold your arm the right length from your face each time?

If it gives people confidence, then great. It just seems too fallible to me, and no more reliable than using your eyes.

That said, I'm a poor putter, so maybe I should investigate...


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## Orikoru (May 11, 2017)

mcbroon said:



			Surely scientific measurement is only as good as the tools used to do the measuring? 

This is the bit I don't get - how do you measure the percentage of slope with your feet? I can see how it works on a large break but can your feet really discern the difference between a 2% and a 4% slope?

And to garyinderry's point, how can you be sure that you hold your arm the right length from your face each time?

If it gives people confidence, then great. It just seems too fallible to me, and no more reliable than using your eyes.

That said, I'm a poor putter, so maybe I should investigate...
		
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I've never tried it, but if my eyes can't see a slope then I'm skeptical that my feet will be able to. It all sounds weird to me. As some have said, I think if it works for someone, it's possibly just as much the process of doing it, as a kind of pre-putt routine, putting you in the right frame of mind and whatnot. And if it works for that reason then that's as good as anything else, might as well keep doing it.


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

mcbroon said:



			Surely scientific measurement is only as good as the tools used to do the measuring? 

This is the bit I don't get - how do you measure the percentage of slope with your feet? I can see how it works on a large break but can your feet really discern the difference between a 2% and a 4% slope?

And to garyinderry's point, how can you be sure that you hold your arm the right length from your face each time?

If it gives people confidence, then great. It just seems too fallible to me, and no more reliable than using your eyes.

That said, I'm a poor putter, so maybe I should investigate...
		
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To be honest I was sceptical about being able to distinguish between a 1% and 3% slope with my feet, but during the lesson you do pick it up. When back at your home course on the practice green, you can use your phone and an app called 'Clinometer' to find slopes so you can ingrain the feeling.

As for holding your arm out, you calibrate that on the practice green before heading out for a round. The practice green should be the same as the greens on the course. If the greens are slow hold your arm out full length, for medium speed grens give our arm a slight bend, on fast greens increase the bend and hold close ish to your face, but you calibrate that during practice prior to play.


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## backwoodsman (May 11, 2017)

Khamelion said:



			To be honest I was sceptical about being able to distinguish between a 1% and 3% slope with my feet, but during the lesson you do pick it up. When back at your home course on the practice green, you can use your phone and an app called 'Clinometer' to find slopes so you can ingrain the feeling.

*As for holding your arm out, you calibrate that on the practice green before heading out for a round. The practice green should be the same as the greens on the course. If the greens are slow hold your arm out full length, for medium speed grens give our arm a slight bend, on fast greens increase the bend and hold close ish to your face, but you calibrate that during practice prior to play*.
		
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So, yet another variable to lob in - making sure your arm is bent by the same amount eveytime? If one believes it helps with ones putting, then it probably does. The mental side of things is not to be sniffed at. But for me, I'm afraid it's one for the flat earth society. (But then, they wouldn't  need it would they  )


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## tsped83 (May 11, 2017)

Khamelion said:



			To be honest I was sceptical about being able to distinguish between a 1% and 3% slope with my feet, but during the lesson you do pick it up. When back at your home course on the practice green, you can use your phone and an app called 'Clinometer' to find slopes so you can ingrain the feeling.

As for holding your arm out, you calibrate that on the practice green before heading out for a round. The practice green should be the same as the greens on the course. If the greens are slow hold your arm out full length, for medium speed grens give our arm a slight bend, on fast greens increase the bend and hold close ish to your face, but you calibrate that during practice prior to play.
		
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That just sounds bonkers and very woolly. Slight bend, close-ish, the guy that pioneered this and sold it is a mastermind. I applaud his audacity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			It sounds a plausible method, I'll give you that - but the true secret to putting success is to be found in post #52. :thup:
		
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It's not really a method - it's a routine.  It's just looking for the break from behind, getting myself set over the ball, getting my mind into the putt; and then hitting the ball.  It's a routine I use on all putts as it stops me rushing the short ones.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			You only do a single read on putts up to about 6 feet
		
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What you mean?  For a six footer I do exactly the same as I do for a 20 footer or a 2 footer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Khamelion said:



			To be honest I was sceptical about being able to distinguish between a 1% and 3% slope with my feet, but during the lesson you do pick it up. When back at your home course on the practice green, *you can use your phone and an app called 'Clinometer' to find slopes *so you can ingrain the feeling.

As for holding your arm out, you calibrate that on the practice green before heading out for a round. The practice green should be the same as the greens on the course. If the greens are slow hold your arm out full length, for medium speed grens give our arm a slight bend, on fast greens increase the bend and hold close ish to your face, but you calibrate that during practice prior to play.
		
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This should be illegal.  One of the justifications given for allowing GPS or Laser distance measurement devices is that distance is something that every player can work out without recourse to device measurement i.e. they can pace distance out from yardage makers on or to the side of the fairway.  There is absolutely no way that, without a device, I can get a measurement of a slope.  So should be banned - if not already banned.


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## ger147 (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This should be illegal.  One of the justifications given for allowing GPS or Laser distance measurement devices is that distance is something that every player can work out without recourse to device measurement i.e. they can pace distance out from yardage makers on or to the side of the fairway.  There is absolutely no way that, without a device, I can get a measurement of a slope.  So should be banned - if not already banned.
		
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He states on the practice green. It is of course not allowed on the course itself during a competition.


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## craigstardis1976 (May 11, 2017)

What am I missing? Why not just see the line, decide how hard you want to hit it and putt it into the hole? I mean I am not a professional or suchlike but surely there is not much more to putting than that? It is a binary thing. You either make it or miss it?


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

backwoodsman said:



			So, yet another variable to lob in - making sure your arm is bent by the same amount eveytime? If one believes it helps with ones putting, then it probably does. The mental side of things is not to be sniffed at. But for me, I'm afraid it's one for the flat earth society. (But then, they wouldn't  need it would they  )
		
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tsped83 said:



			That just sounds bonkers and very woolly. Slight bend, close-ish, the guy that pioneered this and sold it is a mastermind. I applaud his audacity.
		
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Bending you arm is not that difficult to be fair, most people can and do on a regular basis. Bending you arm the correct amount to make sure you hit your mouth with your pint is not hard and doesn't vary. In the same vane working out the speed of a green and then making sure your arm is bent appropriately is not hard either and that doesn't vary from the three potential positions.

In the end, for those of us that have done the class and use Aimpoint while playing, it benefits us, has improved and will continue to improve our ability to read greens, and gets us closer to making more one putts than three putts.

For the majority of the those that have not tried it, refuse to try as they see it as 'snake oil', or some 'flat earth' bunkum, no matter what is written to explain how it works, they will always spin it to make it sound a waste of money, time and effort.


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

Khamelion said:



			Bending you arm is not that difficult to be fair, most people can and do on a regular basis. Bending you arm the correct amount to make sure you hit your mouth with your pint is not hard and doesn't vary. In the same vane working out the speed of a green and then making sure your arm is bent appropriately is not hard either and that doesn't vary from the three potential positions.

In the end, for those of us that have done the class and use Aimpoint while playing, it benefits us, has improved and will continue to improve our ability to read greens, and gets us closer to making more one putts than three putts.

For the majority of the those that have not tried it, refuse to try as they see it as 'snake oil', or some 'flat earth' bunkum, no matter what is written to explain how it works, they will always spin it to make it sound a waste of money, time and effort.
		
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Amen to that.. 

As the thread title states, I'm laughing at the cynics and those dispel it, yet are uninformed by it.


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## Smiffy (May 11, 2017)

I suppose the final nail in the Aimpoint coffin would be if your handicap went up rather than down after using it........


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## mcbroon (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			Amen to that.. 

As the thread title states, I'm laughing at the cynics and those dispel it, yet are uninformed by it.
		
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I think people are cynical because nobody has been able, as far as I can see, to explain *how* you assess the slope with your feet, or *how* you know how much to bend your arm. Nor has anyone been able to demonstrate a link between the adoption of Aimpoint and significant improvement in performance.

The fact that the most famous proponents of the method are, Lydia Ko excepted, pretty honking putters, it's easy to see why cynicism abounds.


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I suppose the final nail in the Aimpoint coffin would be if your handicap went up rather than down after using it........



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oh god totally agree with this as our handicap is determined if we can read a putting green correctly and not the culmination of number of shots that taken us to get to the green and to hole the ball? 

Seriously!!!! &#128514;


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This should be illegal.  One of the justifications given for allowing GPS or Laser distance measurement devices is that distance is something that every player can work out without recourse to device measurement i.e. they can pace distance out from yardage makers on or to the side of the fairway.  There is absolutely no way that, without a device, I can get a measurement of a slope.  So should be banned - if not already banned.
		
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Khamelion said:



			....When back at your home course on the practice green, you can use your phone and an app called 'Clinometer' to find slopes so you can ingrain the feeling.
		
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As ger147 pointed out and as above, use the app when practicing, not when in a comp.




Smiffy said:



			I suppose the final nail in the Aimpoint coffin would be if your handicap went up rather than down after using it........



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Now that would depend, my HC has gone up a couple of points, but that has nowt to do with my putting and more because my overall game is rubbish. Break my game down into driving, approach play and putting, you'd see a small improvement in driving, no change whatsoever in 2nd shot/approach play and a big improvement in putting, but putting them altogether the net result is getting some 0.1 lifts.



mcbroon said:



			I think people are cynical because nobody has been able, as far as I can see, to explain *how* you assess the slope with your feet, or *how* you know how much to bend your arm. Nor has anyone been able to demonstrate a link between the adoption of Aimpoint and significant improvement in performance.

The fact that the most famous proponents of the method are, Lydia Ko excepted, pretty honking putters, it's easy to see why cynicism abounds.
		
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The easy answer here is go on the course and find out, but the sceptical are not going to do that.

The other answer is to get a level with a digital read out, or download the clinmometer app, get out on to you home course practice green and use either of the aforementioned items and find a 1%, 2%, 3%, 4% and 5% slope, stand side on to that slope, feet shoulder width apart and feel which foot has the most pressure, that foot is the low side and by using the app or level you will get the feeling of how much slope there is. Some people can feel it better in one foot than the other, for me I got better readings when my left side was on the low side, so if you can't feel on say your left, turn around and face the opposite direction, so that the low side is on the right. Repeat that for the 2, 3 4 and 5 percent slopes.

That's the basics, but if you're one of the sceptics there's not a snowballs chance in hell you'll even attempt any of the above and will remain sceptical and unwilling.


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## SteveJay (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			oh god totally agree with this as our handicap is determined if we can read a putting green correctly and not the culmination of number of shots that taken us to get to the green and to hole the ball? 

Seriously!!!! &#62978;
		
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Yes, but what good is being able to read greens perfectly with your feet, a bent arm or straight arm, fat or thin fingers etc etc (as has been questioned throughout this thread) if it doesn't have a positive impact on your game/handicap. 

As putts account for almost half of most average golfers shots per round, surely an improvement in putting would result in a handicap cut?


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			oh god totally agree with this as our handicap is determined if we can read a putting green correctly and not the culmination of number of shots that taken us to get to the green and to hole the ball? 

Seriously!!!! &#62978;
		
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What's hard to understand. 

If if someone has a settled handicap. Then on average they'll reach the greens in a similar amount of shots over the course of a few rounds. So a new super putting technique would eventually see it fall. Not rise.....


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## Smiffy (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			oh god totally agree with this as our handicap is determined if we can read a putting green correctly and not the culmination of number of shots that taken us to get to the green and to hole the ball? 

Seriously!!!! &#62978;
		
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Yep.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Funny that loads on this thread would quite happily change their swing if their teaching pro suggested it would do something to improve their handicap, but poo poo a similar suggestion where their putting is concerned. 

All I know is that I've done the course and feel it's helped my game and if someone had a magic way to always hit the line and strength that I read I'd happily pay for that course too


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## Qwerty (May 11, 2017)

Slab said:



			To borrow a line from another youtube clip: Crash, bang, wallop, what a video! 
(thanks to Alan Partridge) 



Anyway, surely a fat fingered bloke (thatâ€™s a bloke with fat fingers, rather thanâ€¦) is going to overestimate the break that his skinny fingered friend would, on exactly the same putt '
		
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I've thought this previously.

Surely someone with Big hands/Sausage fingers is going to get a different line, 
Or would you just make an Adjustment to compensate?


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

SteveJay said:



			Yes, but what good is being able to read greens perfectly with your feet, a bent arm or straight arm, fat or thin fingers etc etc (as has been questioned throughout this thread) if it doesn't have a positive impact on your game/handicap. 

As putts account for almost half of most average golfers shots per round, surely an improvement in putting would result in a handicap cut?
		
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As I've wrote above, not necessarily. My putting has improved a lot since starting to use Aimpoint, a lot more one putts and less three putts, last week was 5 one putts, 5 three putts, one lost ball and 7 2 putts. My chipping has improved, but I'm let down my to many wayward drives and 2nd shots out of trees with no shot to the green, bunkers I hate them, so while my putting is getting better other parts of my game drag my scores down.


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## Smiffy (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			All I know is that *I've done the course and feel it's helped my game*

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I'm assuming that this came after your 5 putt on the 10th at Blackmoor??????


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Funny that loads on this thread would quite happily change their swing if their teaching pro suggested it would do something to improve their handicap, but poo poo a similar suggestion where their putting is concerned. 

All I know is that I've done the course and feel it's helped my game and if someone had a magic way to always hit the line and strength that I read I'd happily pay for that course too
		
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Without debating whether it's hocus pocus or not. 

You are comparing different concepts. 

Swing changes are to to sort out technical faults. Not aim. I doubt anyone goes to their pro and says "I'm really struggling to aim my driver down the middle of a fairway".


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

Qwerty said:



			I've thought this previously.

Surely someone with Big hands/Sausage fingers is going to get a different line, 
Or would you just make an Adjustment to compensate?
		
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The comment from the nay sayers, has been how far do you bend you arm? what if you have sausage/skinny fingers? surely that means you'll all get different readings, different lines. no you won't. The one thing that is being forgotten, is that the course teaches you how to use the Aimpoint technique, it's up to you to practice it and tailor it to be specific to you. 

You learn the technique and go to your home course practice green and practice, calibrate to your own body shape, you use what you have learnt. Just because someone has sausage fingers and someone has skinny fingers is immaterial each person learns through practice what works.


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## ruff-driver (May 11, 2017)

What  about those folk from norfolk with webbed hands and six fingers, do they always see a 15ft break


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

ruff-driver said:



			What  about those folk from norfolk with webbed hands and six fingers, do they always see a 15ft break 

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The webbing wouldn't matter as you hold your fingers together and not apart


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

My cards on the able. I'm a paid up cynic on this issue. And to prefix this post with an overriding *in my opinion only.*

I think that Aimpoint falls into the same area as equipment manufactures who bring out a new driver or irons every ten minutes claiming that they're X units of something or other better than their last ones were, which were X better than the previous ones and so on down the line backwards. 

Under lab / robot / test conditions (say similar to those of the motor trade when producing figures on fuel efficiency) slight improvements can be 'proven' I don't doubt. But take the gear out on the course in 32 degrees or 72 or 85, in flat calm or howling gale with a different ball and player then those performance figures are nothing more than fanciful lab-condition nonsense. None of us play golf in a sterile laboratory.

I have in the past, and undoubtedly will do so again, bought myself the latest clubs and convinced myself that they're better, longer etc. than what I'd been using previously, but when the shine wears off the change is nothing more than a very small one at best. I see my perceived benefit almost as having been a placebo. But during my entire golfing antics I have not changed my putter or my belief that I can putt 'reasonably' well. If I go through a cold period I see it as that. Sure it's frustrating but I know that if I persevere then I'll start holing them again. 

As a kid from around the age of eight I would often sink a tin can into the lawn and putt to it from all around the garden. It's this grounding that (IMO) makes me a reasonable putter - not a Pro or a Luke but fairly competent. I trust my stroke and ability to read a putt based on my eyes, the conditions of the day and my past experience.

If Aimpoint really is so effective then I don't understand why everyone on Tour doesn't adopt it.

I'm not saying that no-one should use it as if it works for you then knock yourself out - but for it to packaged up as a saleable panacea for all is not realistic.

So many Tour players suffer putting woes as their careers progress and the short stick begins to let them down when the heat is on. So they go for changes, left above right or vice versa, claw, Super Stroke grips, putters like a Klingon Battle Cruisers and all points in between to get to where they used to be. If Aimpoint was a surefire 100% fix they'd all be at it by now.

I think golf is the hardest game I've ever played and in particular putting is probably the most idiosyncratic part of it. But when I start to get the yips I won't be relying on Aimpoint to save me.

I'm not having a pop at anyone who believes in it - an good luck to you if it works for you as I say.

And in the words of Richard Starkey "Peace and Love everyone, peace and love!":thup:


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## GreggerKBR (May 11, 2017)

Qwerty said:



			I've thought this previously.

Surely someone with Big hands/Sausage fingers is going to get a different line, 
Or would you just make an Adjustment to compensate?
		
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Correct, when you do the training course with a qualified Aimpoint instructor this all becomes a lot clearer.
Your own body shapes/sizes and feel for slope combined with the science behind 1%-5% slopes accommodate the differences 
- provided you have had the proper training... that's why it costs - it's personalised.

If I start to struggle with my reads I go to Aimpoint.  It's scientific, it's seriously accurate if you can do certain things properly.
My theory was that if Ko, Poulter etc. think it works and bank cheques based on the theory I'd gladly splash the cash on the course.

I do have beef with one aspect of it regarding putts inside 3ft but aside from that if you:
(a) you do the course with a good instructor
(b) you properly understand the adjustments for green speed
(c) you can set the ball off towards your Aimpoint consistently
(d) you can get a good roll on the ball consistently

Then you will find Aimpoint useful

However, if you're a great putter and have a great routine for green reading then you're going to dismiss it.

As an example, I've dropped about between 4-6 putts per round on my bad putting rounds.
My good rounds have not necessarily improved that dramatically.

I have not watched HJS's video, I'm not commenting on it.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2017)

I had the pleasure of playing with Khamelion a few weeks ago. I had a suspicion that he was using pinpoint but never got round to asking. I can certainly confirm that he never slowed anyone down using this method, nor did what he was doing look odd. 

If it works for people what's the problem?


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I'm assuming that this came after your 5 putt on the 10th at Blackmoor??????
		
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It certainly did Rob :smirk:


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## ger147 (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Without debating whether it's hocus pocus or not. 

You are comparing different concepts. 

Swing changes are to to sort out technical faults. Not aim. I doubt anyone goes to their pro and says "I'm really struggling to aim my driver down the middle of a fairway".
		
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Not strictly true - I'm a left aimer i.e. when I think I'm aiming straight I'm really aiming a wee bit left. It was my pro who told me this and we're working on it.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Without debating whether it's hocus pocus or not. 

You are comparing different concepts. 

Swing changes are to to sort out technical faults. Not aim. I doubt anyone goes to their pro and says "I'm really struggling to aim my driver down the middle of a fairway".
		
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Isn't aim technical in Putting?


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			What's hard to understand. 

If if someone has a settled handicap. Then on average they'll reach the greens in a similar amount of shots over the course of a few rounds. So a new *super putting technique* would eventually see it fall. Not rise.....
		
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What do you not understand? It has nothing to do with putting technique, it's a different way to read a green as is this new Putt View that's now on the scene that shows you the line on breaking putts, NOT how to putt, just the same with Aimpoint? I take it how you read a green will improve your technique? 

Whats hard to understand about that?


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## Qwerty (May 11, 2017)

GreggerKBR said:



			Correct, when you do the training course with a qualified Aimpoint instructor this all becomes a lot clearer.
Your own body shapes/sizes and feel for slope combined with the science behind 1%-5% slopes accommodate the differences 
- provided you have had the proper training... that's why it costs - it's personalised.

If I start to struggle with my reads I go to Aimpoint.  It's scientific, it's seriously accurate if you can do certain things properly.
My theory was that if Ko, Poulter etc. think it works and bank cheques based on the theory I'd gladly splash the cash on the course.

I do have beef with one aspect of it regarding putts inside 3ft but aside from that if you:
(a) you do the course with a good instructor
(b) you properly understand the adjustments for green speed
(c) you can set the ball off towards your Aimpoint consistently
(d) you can get a good roll on the ball consistently

Then you will find Aimpoint useful

However, if you're a great putter and have a great routine for green reading then you're going to dismiss it.

As an example, I've dropped about between 4-6 putts per round on my bad putting rounds.
My good rounds have not necessarily improved that dramatically.

I have not watched HJS's video, I'm not commenting on it.
		
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Ah right, to be honest i kinda thought the method was set in stone in regards to what you do and then gaining the final read/line. I didn't know you had to practice it. I don't really know a great deal about it and I don't think I'll be watching Homers video.

Certainly not a naysayer..I've used my feet to confirm short breaking putts for some time. 
Happy with my putting though, I'd always trust what I see firstly then maybe back it up using my feet if I'm Unsure if there is break or not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			He states on the practice green. It is of course not allowed on the course itself during a competition.
		
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Ah - misread - good.  Though not much good on my track as our practice green is pretty darned flat.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

mcbroon said:



			I think people are cynical because nobody has been able, as far as I can see, to explain *how* you assess the slope with your feet, or *how* you know how much to bend your arm. Nor has anyone been able to demonstrate a link between the adoption of Aimpoint and significant improvement in performance.

The fact that the most famous proponents of the method are, Lydia Ko excepted, pretty honking putters, it's easy to see why cynicism abounds.
		
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It's down to belief and faith - those things that you're damned for having in another context


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Khamelion said:



			The comment from the nay sayers, has been how far do you bend you arm? what if you have sausage/skinny fingers? surely that means you'll all get different readings, different lines. no you won't. The one thing that is being forgotten, is that the course teaches you how to use the Aimpoint technique, it's up to you to practice it and tailor it to be specific to you. 

You learn the technique and go to your home course practice green and practice, calibrate to your own body shape, you use what you have learnt. Just because someone has sausage fingers and someone has skinny fingers is immaterial each person learns through practice what works.
		
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But what if your practice putting green is essentially flat?  Ours is essentially flat - but many of our greens have big slopes, steps and breaks.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Isn't aim technical in Putting?
		
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It's irrelevant if you can't put straight. 

So whilst it's a skill set. And I don't object to anyone trying anything to help them improve. I just don't think something to improve your aim is comparable to a swing change.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Not strictly true - I'm a left aimer i.e. when I think I'm aiming straight I'm really aiming a wee bit left. It was my pro who told me this and we're working on it.
		
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You're pro must love you. 

Ill happily pay a pro to improve my technique (or try to at least). But if he's getting cash off you to say (right a bit, right a bit) then he must be laughing all the way to the bank.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			What do you not understand? It has nothing to do with putting technique, it's a different way to read a green as is this new Putt View that's now on the scene that shows you the line on breaking putts, NOT how to putt, just the same with Aimpoint? I take it how you read a green will improve your technique? 

Whats hard to understand about that?
		
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I know what aimpoint is for!
 But people are saying it has improved their putting. They dont state whether that's stroke or aim. But that they have lowered their total putts. 

So instead of trying to condescend and come over all clever. 

Explain in to me how if someone has a consistent game tee to green wouldn't see their handicap lower if they're putting (total numbers) was consistently lower than before hand.


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## ger147 (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			You're pro must love you. 

Ill happily pay a pro to improve my technique (or try to at least). But if he's getting cash off you to say (right a bit, right a bit) then he must be laughing all the way to the bank.
		
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You improve your technique yourself with the help of a pro, a pro can't improve it for you.


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## guest100718 (May 11, 2017)

I've played my course so many times I don't need to read anything...


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I know what aimpoint is for!
 But people are saying it has improved their putting. They dont state whether that's stroke or aim. But that they have lowered their total putts. 

So instead of trying to condescend and come over all clever. 

Explain in to me how if someone has a consistent game tee to green wouldn't see their handicap lower if they're putting (total numbers) was consistently lower than before hand.
		
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I think is generally aim Dave, but Aimpoint instructor Jamie Donaldson also helps with technique too where it helps with the alignment and getting the ball rolling on the correct line. They also do a speed section during the day and also measure players tempo and path. I still miss putts and let's be fair, tour players on the finest greens, miss something like 50% of putts from 12 feet so I still don't expect to make that many putts from that distance but I do read the line better and miss closer !


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 11, 2017)

The issue I have with aimpoint is there are just too many variables. A 1% slope to one person is a 2 or 3% slope to someone else. A slightly bent arm to one person is a pretty bent arm to another. I have small hands so do I use 1, 2 or 3 fingers? I'm fed up of reading on here about people commenting that the green speed at suchandsuch course is really quick/slow when I know the course and completely disagree with their opinion. 

When I stand over a putt I can feel if my weight is being being moved from vertical. Nobody taught me this, I didn't part with any cash to find this out and it came naturally as I was learning the game. 'Seeing' a putt in my head before hitting it is the biggest aid to holing more putts. And it's free  :thup:


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			You improve your technique yourself with the help of a pro, a pro can't improve it for you.
		
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Fair point. But I think the point was clear. I'll pay a pro for help improving technique. I would pay one to line me up.


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## ger147 (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			Fair point. But I think the point was clear. I'll pay a pro for help improving technique. I would pay one to line me up.
		
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And I didn't say I paid one to line me up, it was simply something he pointed out to me that I didn't know, and I bear that in mind while working on the things I'm working on with him swing wise.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I think is generally aim Dave, but Aimpoint instructor Jamie Donaldson also helps with technique too where it helps with the alignment and getting the ball rolling on the correct line. They also do a speed section during the day and also measure players tempo and path. I still miss putts and let's be fair, tour players on the finest greens, miss something like 50% of putts from 12 feet so I still don't expect to make that many putts from that distance but *I do read the line better and miss closer* !
		
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Which should surely result in a few less 3 putts, and therefor total putts?

but the quote you responded to had gone off track. It had just been asked how people who rave about aimpoint hadn't seen drastic handicap cuts. Because most people when discussing it. State it's improved their putting. And say they take less shots. 

My opinion is very much if YOU believe it helps. Do it. 
hence why I haven't mocked anyone on here for doing so. I actually use my feet for slope. Not so much one finger or 2. But I do struggle to see break, but can feel it. I then just aim a certain distance either side based in feel.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			And I didn't say I paid one to line me up, it was simply something he pointed out to me that I didn't know, and I bear that in mind while working on the things I'm working on with him swing wise.
		
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Fair enough. I apologise. I read it as though it was an ongoing lesson. Which I thought was a little ott. 

Of course thise hose little things are what can be as much of a benefit as the new swing mechanics.


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## Val (May 11, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			I've played my course so many times I don't need to read anything...
		
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:rofl: you're some man


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## SteveJay (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			It's irrelevant if you can't put straight. 

So whilst it's a skill set. And I don't object to anyone trying anything to help them improve. I just don't think something to improve your aim is comparable to a swing change.
		
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And thats where a session on the SAM putting lab would bring results. 
Whether you read the line right or not, using Aimpoint or your eyes or even a spirit level, if you aim 2 degrees off a flat 6 foot putt you will miss the hole. SAM really opened my eyes on my aim and technique - far more scientific, in my humble opinion, than all the variables at play with Aimpoint (although I accept that they are not comparable - SAM is about technique and aim - Aimpoint is reading a break, but if you don't have a good technique and aim, then Aimpoint isn't gonna help you


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## guest100718 (May 11, 2017)

Val said:



			:rofl: you're some man
		
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well it's such a stupid thread.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

SteveJay said:



			And thats where a session on the SAM putting lab would bring results. 
Whether you read the line right or not, using Aimpoint or your eyes or even a spirit level, if you aim 2 degrees off a flat 6 foot putt you will miss the hole. SAM really opened my eyes on my aim and technique - far more scientific, in my humble opinion, than all the variables at play with Aimpoint (although I accept that they are not comparable - SAM is about technique and aim - Aimpoint is reading a break, but if you don't have a good technique and aim, then Aimpoint isn't gonna help you
		
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I loved my 3 samputt lessons. The stats it gives and then the improvement in stroke you can see has given me so much more confiedence. 

Still struggle with long outts, but much better 8 ft n under.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			The issue I have with aimpoint is there are just too many variables. A 1% slope to one person is a 2 or 3% slope to someone else. A slightly bent arm to one person is a pretty bent arm to another. I have small hands so do I use 1, 2 or 3 fingers? I'm fed up of reading on here about people commenting that the green speed at suchandsuch course is really quick/slow when I know the course and completely disagree with their opinion. 

When I stand over a putt I can feel if my weight is being being moved from vertical. Nobody taught me this, I didn't part with any cash to find this out and it came naturally as I was learning the game. 'Seeing' a putt in my head before hitting it is the biggest aid to holing more putts. And it's free  :thup:
		
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There aren't many variables Gordon. My perception of a 1% slope may be your 2% but so long as you consistently measure it to your callibration then you have YOUR system. The fingers are for each 1% and certainly if the instructor says it's a 1%  putt and you read it as a 5% then you'd be pursuaded to re calibrate. There are certain bits that you learn I have never heard mentioned that also help the correct read.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I loved my 3 samputt lessons. The stats it gives and then the improvement in stroke you can see has given me so much more confiedence. 

Still struggle with long outts, but much better 8 ft n under.
		
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I got much less from SAM than Aimpoint for similar outlay


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I got much less from SAM than Aimpoint for similar outlay
		
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Thats the beauty of lessons. We all need different ones. 

Mine showed me just how awful my technique was. From grip, to stroke. Now I feel I can actually putt straight which is obviously helpful lol


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			There aren't many variables Gordon. My perception of a 1% slope may be your 2% but so long as you consistently measure it to your callibration then you have YOUR system. The fingers are for each 1% and certainly if the instructor says it's a 1%  putt and you read it as a 5% then you'd be pursuaded to re calibrate. There are certain bits that you learn I have never heard mentioned that also help the correct read.
		
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Sorry Chris but there is just too much guesswork to convince me. I can already make a reasonable guess at the correct line without spending any cash. I'm not a great putter but I'm probably better than most on here and I generally get the ball to tap in range from distance.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Sorry Chris but there is just too much guesswork to convince me. I can already make a reasonable guess at the correct line without spending any cash. I'm not a great putter but I'm probably better than most on here and I generally get the ball to tap in range from distance.
		
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I've played with you so I know how genuine you are and, I agree ,it'd do little for you  ...... but for Me!


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I've played with you so I know how genuine you are and, I agree ,it'd do little for you  ...... but for Me!
		
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Have to say that I'm with Gordon on this too, Chris. I'll stick by my natural putting ability such as it is.

I've played with you and you play well and seemed to putt pretty well too if I remember correctly. I reckon your natural ability, acquired over the years, is the dominant factor in your putting - and maybe could it not just be that your belief in AP just gives you an extra layer of comfort? Not saying that's a bad thing either.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Have to say that I'm with Gordon on this too, Chris. I'll stick by my natural putting ability such as it is.

I've played with you and you play well and seemed to putt pretty well too if I remember correctly. I reckon your natural ability, acquired over the years, is the dominant factor in your putting - and maybe could it not just be that your belief in AP just gives you an extra layer of comfort? Not saying that's a bad thing either.
		
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I actually haven't had the pleasure Johnny but I just don't get the universal criticism from people of a system that they don't need to, or want to, try

Love a game sometime my friend


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## JohnnyDee (May 11, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I actually haven't had the pleasure Johnny but I just don't get the universal criticism from people of a system that they don't need to, or want to, try

Love a game sometime my friend
		
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Ah, I thought we did at Camberley Heath that day, or Hayling once - but maybe not. I'm getting old and the old memory is failing.:mmm:

I haven't tried it but in my Captain's year my Pro used it in our C&P challenges so I had ample opportunity to observe it in acton.

Seems too fiddly to me, and like Gordon, I believe that I can rely on whatever ability I have when putting.

But stress I'm not against it - just not convinced.

Maybe we'll get paired at Forest Pines or if not we can sort something.:thup:


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			The issue I have with aimpoint is there are just too many variables. A 1% slope to one person is a 2 or 3% slope to someone else. A slightly bent arm to one person is a pretty bent arm to another. I have small hands so do I use 1, 2 or 3 fingers?
		
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You use what is appropriate to you. Aimpoint gives you the technique it's up to you how you tune it to be personal to you. People are getting hung up, fat fingers, skinny fingers, how far to bend your arm, as I've just written, you get shown the technique, you develop that how you see fit. In essence there is only one variable and that is you.



chrisd said:



			There aren't many variables Gordon. My perception of a 1% slope may be your 2% but so long as you consistently measure it to your callibration then you have YOUR system. .
		
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That's it summed up nicely.


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I know what aimpoint is for!
 But people are saying it has improved their putting. They dont state whether that's stroke or aim. But that they have lowered their total putts. 

So instead of trying to condescend and come over all clever. 

Explain in to me how if someone has a consistent game tee to green wouldn't see their handicap lower if they're putting (total numbers) was consistently lower than before hand.
		
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Condescending and clever, what like most that have had a go on a system that works and to a person who put a video up to give his insight on it! 

I've just asked you similar to what your trying to ask but I'm the one being condescending and clever??? 

Last 3 rounds I've averaged 1.6 putts per green and last round it was 1.2 but from shots gained I've lost out to a scratch player in putting. so take out what you will from them stats but I've gone from 2.5 to 2.1 so yes with the new expensive wand in my hand, the Aimpoint, constant practise on my stroke technique with Blast Motion and hitting hours of putts on the practise green, ALL those factors have contributed to me improving my putting........

Did I mention the hours of chipping I do, endless balls I hit on the range and in the net, that don't really contribute to my lowering of my HC, just green reading does!! 


Now I'm being condescending.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			Condescending and clever, what like most that have had a go on a system that works and to a person who put a video up to give his insight on it! 

I've just asked you similar to what your trying to ask but I'm the one being condescending and clever??? 

Last 3 rounds I've averaged 1.6 putts per green and last round it was 1.2 but from shots gained I've lost out to a scratch player in putting. so take out what you will from them stats but I've gone from 2.5 to 2.1 so yes with the new expensive wand in my hand, the Aimpoint, constant practise on my stroke technique with Blast Motion and hitting hours of putts on the practise green, ALL those factors have contributed to me improving my putting........

Did I mention the hours of chipping I do, endless balls I hit on the range and in the net, that don't really contribute to my lowering of my HC, just green reading does!! 


Now I'm being condescending.
		
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I didn't once criticise homer. Or the system. 

I asked one one simple question whilst fully appreciating what aimpoint is for. I just asked for clarity on if they hand tangeable proof it had improved their game. As opposed to just feeling it had. 

I really couldn't care less what your handicap was, is or how you got there. But feel free to wax lyrical about how wonderful your game is and I'll hang on every word......


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## Val (May 11, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			well it's such a stupid thread.
		
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Yip


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I didn't once criticise homer. Or the system. 

I asked one one simple question whilst fully appreciating what aimpoint is for. I just asked for clarity on if they hand tangeable proof it had improved their game. As opposed to just feeling it had. 

I really couldn't care less what your handicap was, is or how you got there. But feel free to wax lyrical about how wonderful your game is and I'll hang on every word......
		
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Where did I say that you critised Homer or the system. You said I was being condescending but others have said a lot worse yet you took it that It was directed towards you! That's Your problem!! 

Being aware of you wanting 'clarity' I've posted that it's not just putting but everything else contributes to you lowering scores that Game Golf has shown, and proof of recent putting stats (good or bad) but now I'm waxing......

you either want proof or not! Which is it?


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			Where did I say that you critised Homer or the system. You said I was being condescending but others have said a lot worse yet you took it that It was directed towards you! That's Your problem!! 

Being aware of you wanting 'clarity' I've posted that it's not just putting but everything else contributes to you lowering scores that Game Golf has shown, and proof of recent putting stats (good or bad) but now I'm waxing......

you either want proof or not! Which is it?
		
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If someone responds and quotes me then I tend to think something is said with me in mind. Maybe that's not the case. Although post 126 would suggest it was not for anyone else......

you said in your last response you were being condescending. Hence the accusation of you waxing lyrical about your wonderful improvements. 

If your initial repsonse had simply been the stats you later mentioned I'd have tipped my hat and acknowledged them. But it wasn't. You decided to imply I didn't know what aimpoint was intended for. Trying to imply I had no grasp of the concept. Which clearly wasn't the case. 

Anyways. This has gone way off track. 

For the record cord as mentioned previously. I wasn't on here to mock aimpoint. Simply curious how many people had seen tangeable improvements. Which yourself and a few others have seen.


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## Liverbirdie (May 11, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			I've played my course so many times I don't need to read anything...
		
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MAybe just some books, preferably not Janet and John, and ones with big paragraphs, Pad.


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## garyinderry (May 11, 2017)

What exactly do you do with the fingers thing?  what am I pointing them at?


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			If someone responds and quotes me then I tend to think something is said with me in mind. Maybe that's not the case. Although post 126 would suggest it was not for anyone else......

you said in your last response you were being condescending. Hence the accusation of you waxing lyrical about your wonderful improvements. 

If your initial repsonse had simply been the stats you later mentioned I'd have tipped my hat and acknowledged them. But it wasn't. You decided to imply I didn't know what aimpoint was intended for. Trying to imply I had no grasp of the concept. Which clearly wasn't the case. 

Anyways. This has gone way off track. 

For the record cord as mentioned previously. I wasn't on here to mock aimpoint. Simply curious how many people had seen tangeable improvements. Which yourself and a few others have seen.
		
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I was merely pointing out that imo I wasn't being condescending but to prove a point that if needed to I can be or mores the point sarcastic then condescending, I'm far from that. 
I'm the first to help anyone who wants to take the time to speak one on one if they are genuinely interested to know more and have done in the past with one or two from here.  But there are a lot of sceptics that just want to chime in and discredit it with no intention to want to understand it and have a go at those who do use it. So to cypher the cynics out and answer the genuine becomes impossible. There's a whole host of threads I don't comment on because it either doesn't interest me, or I'm not informed on the subject so I'm not going to post, but I suppose you'll always get those who will to stir it up instead. 

If you took my initial post personally I apologise as it wasn't aimed at yourself but what you put saying about wonderful putting technique has nothing to do with Aimpoint. AP reading or normal reading is a very small cog that's needed with a bunch of other parts that's needed to get the ball into the hole. Without one, you'll miss. Simple as that.


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## BristolMike (May 11, 2017)

It seems like (and I may be wrong) that the people who have said aimpoint has improved their putting have also said they have practiced their putting a lot more to ingrain the system.

Is the improvement more down to the practice? I've not gone through the aimpoint system but when ever I put any time into my putting it improves massively


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## Three (May 11, 2017)

Well I endured, sorry watched &#128521; the video all the way through.   So  now there's a real person behind the forum name, I don't wish to knock Homer at all but here's my take on it.... 

As I've always said, I think the Aimpoint method is maybe  OK for people without basic green-reading ability, I think all 3 of the putts in the video proved that as they all looked pretty obvious to me. 

What the video also shows is that there is no magic to knowing the speed of each individual putt, that has to be judged on merit each time. 

What it also  shows is that you still have to hit the putt where you want to, looks like the first one was pulled. 

So, irrespective of how you read the speed and break, you still have to hit the ball on a line  and at a speed that combine effectively. 

Homer, one constructive suggestion, reduce the length of the videos by about 80%. Get rid of the waffle and repetition, make them more to the point for the modern YouTube viewer.


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## Three (May 11, 2017)

BristolMike said:



			It seems like (and I may be wrong) that the people who have said aimpoint has improved their putting have also said they have practiced their putting a lot more to ingrain the system.

Is the improvement more down to the practice? I've not gone through the aimpoint system but when ever I put any time into my putting it improves massively
		
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Great point &#128077;


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## guest100718 (May 11, 2017)

Liverbirdie said:



			MAybe just some books, preferably not Janet and John, and ones with big paragraphs, Pad.

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peter and jane and pat the dog


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

BristolMike said:



			It seems like (and I may be wrong) that the people who have said aimpoint has improved their putting have also said they have practiced their putting a lot more to ingrain the system.

Is the improvement more down to the practice? I've not gone through the aimpoint system but when ever I put any time into my putting it improves massively
		
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A 2 way street really. You practise your reading skills that you obtain from the AP course, get your Aimpoint thru your valuation of slope, you have your point that you aim at and all that's required is good stroke and speed. So it's a bit of both really.


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## BristolMike (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			A 2 way street really. You practise your reading skills that you obtain from the AP course, get your Aimpoint thru your valuation of slope, you have your point that you aim at and all that's required is good stroke and speed. So it's a bit of both really.
		
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Generally though wouldn't you think as you put more practice in you read greens better? I know I do. The more you put in, the better everything becomes. 

Im not slating the system, I just don't really see how it really helps. i could maybe understand it for a new player, but experienced players have had years of experience reading greens.


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## Three (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			all that's required is good stroke and speed.
		
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This is the bit they seem far too glib about. 
"Just "  get the speed??? 

They brush over too many issues, grain, wind and judging the speed being the biggest. 
There's way too many variables.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 11, 2017)

Three said:



			This is the bit they seem far too glib about. 
"Just "  get the speed??? 

They brush over too many issues, grain, wind and judging the speed being the biggest. 
There's way too many variables.
		
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How does the system work on the likes of Bermuda greens where the pace can vary depending which direction you are putting?


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## Three (May 11, 2017)

drive4show said:



			how does the system work on the likes of bermuda greens where the pace can vary depending which direction you are putting?
		
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EXACTLY!!! 

Not just pace, but direction also.   Flat putts break from the side to side if you are going sideways across the grain.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2017)

3565 said:



			I was merely pointing out that imo I wasn't being condescending but to prove a point that if needed to I can be or mores the point sarcastic then condescending, I'm far from that. 
I'm the first to help anyone who wants to take the time to speak one on one if they are genuinely interested to know more and have done in the past with one or two from here.  But there are a lot of sceptics that just want to chime in and discredit it with no intention to want to understand it and have a go at those who do use it. So to cypher the cynics out and answer the genuine becomes impossible. There's a whole host of threads I don't comment on because it either doesn't interest me, or I'm not informed on the subject so I'm not going to post, but I suppose you'll always get those who will to stir it up instead. 

If you took my initial post personally I apologise as it wasn't aimed at yourself but what you put saying about wonderful putting technique has nothing to do with Aimpoint. AP reading or normal reading is a very small cog that's needed with a bunch of other parts that's needed to get the ball into the hole. Without one, you'll miss. Simple as that.
		
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I think we both probably misinterpreted one another's main points at some point. As I don't think either of us intended to go on a point scoring exercise.  

At least we didn't resort to name calling lol


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## MendieGK (May 11, 2017)

I've purposely stayed out of this thread because frankly I think it's absurd that people with so little knowledge of aimpoint seem to care so much about it. rather than sitting here slagging off a method you know little about why not go and work on your games (not putting as you obviously hole everything)?

I haven't watched Homers video (and won't) but all i will say is, to use aimpoint properly it takes practice, you need to Calibrate for yourself and practice it. I have a very good understanding of what a 1% slope is compared to a 2% as I work on it at home. Do I make every putt? Absolutely not. At 8ft, the tour average is less than 50%!! 

it costs Â£100 to do the course. Big deal, most of you have lessons, then don't actually do what your told to do or work on it enough to ingrain it. 

Gordon started the thread, and I know he 100% uses his feet to feel the read, so effectively he is using 50%+ of what aimpoint teaches you to do. Aimpoint just employs a slightly more scientific approach. 

Im sure some of you on here use 'plumb-bobbing' to help read greens. Why is that any different? It's a method someone created and some people thing it helps them. I don't see any threads about that (even though is definitely doesn't work ðŸ˜‰)


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## MendieGK (May 11, 2017)

It's also ironic that just as an aimpoint thread 'goes off'. It's no1 user is holing the earth and leading the players


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## 3565 (May 11, 2017)

BristolMike said:



			Generally though wouldn't you think as you put more practice in you read greens better? I know I do. The more you put in, the better everything becomes. 

Im not slating the system, I just don't really see how it really helps. i could maybe understand it for a new player, but experienced players have had years of experience reading greens.
		
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Like most things in golf the more you practise the better you get. I've shown players of all ages at my club and they have all found it bizarre when they've gone through the process and  The amount of times they've said it's never that much break then holed it. 

I've played golf for 40 years but the last 5 have been an eye opener since doing it. I won't go back to a normal read unless I'm forced to.


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## chrisd (May 11, 2017)

MendieGK said:



			I've purposely stayed out of this thread because frankly I think it's absurd that people with so little knowledge of aimpoint seem to care so much about it. rather than sitting here slagging off a method you know little about why not go and work on your games (not putting as you obviously hole everything)?

I haven't watched Homers video (and won't) but all i will say is, to use aimpoint properly it takes practice, you need to Calibrate for yourself and practice it. I have a very good understanding of what a 1% slope is compared to a 2% as I work on it at home. Do I make every putt? Absolutely not. At 8ft, the tour average is less than 50%!! 

it costs Â£100 to do the course. Big deal, most of you have lessons, then don't actually do what your told to do or work on it enough to ingrain it. 

Gordon started the thread, and I know he 100% uses his feet to feel the read, so effectively he is using 50%+ of what aimpoint teaches you to do. Aimpoint just employs a slightly more scientific approach. 

Im sure some of you on here use 'plumb-bobbing' to help read greens. Why is that any different? It's a method someone created and some people thing it helps them. I don't see any threads about that (even though is definitely doesn't work ðŸ˜‰)
		
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This for me too ^^^^^


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## Khamelion (May 11, 2017)

BristolMike said:



			Generally though wouldn't you think as you put more practice in you read greens better? I know I do. The more you put in, the better everything becomes.
		
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For me no, I could read greens okay before Aimpoint, but I got to many reads wrong and what really peed me off more than anything was the optical illusion, the read where everything that tells you the balls breaks left, you aim right for the break and the ball goes further right. Aimpoint helps me get rid of those reads, for which no amount of practice could.



Three said:



			This is the bit they seem far too glib about. 
"Just "  get the speed??? 

They brush over too many issues, grain, wind and judging the speed being the biggest. 
There's way too many variables.
		
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You make it read like those variables are just Aimpoint issues, to debunk the technique, but the variables you mention are all relevant no matter how you read a green. Aimpoint gives you a technique on how to read a green, speed and line are something you have to practice and by line I mean the line the putter takes at impact and whether you hit the ball where you intended or whether you push or pull the stroke.



drive4show said:



			How does the system work on the likes of Bermuda greens where the pace can vary depending which direction you are putting?
		
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I wouldn't know never played on Bermuda greens, well not that I know of in the UK anyway.


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## Papas1982 (May 12, 2017)

MendieGK said:



			It's also ironic that just as an aimpoint thread 'goes off'. It's no1 user is holing the earth and leading the players
		
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For every person who mocks it. There's always someone else who blindly believes others can't be right to not use it.

Look at his season stats. Is he the no1 putter in the world?
shame here's not an ampoint for wedges too lol


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			For every person who mocks it. There's always someone else who blindly believes others can't be right to not use it.

Look at his season stats. Is he the no1 putter in the world?
shame here's not an ampoint for wedges too lol
		
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Honestly Dave I don't see the Aimpointers banging on to non users, we simply defend our decision to  take the course and to argue (rightly) that implementing it takes no more time than non Aimpointers do on the green. 

The question isn't whether he's the number one putter in the world, it's whether he feels he reads greens better as a result of taking the course.  You told me at RSG that you were using bits of it you'd seen on Utube - the problem is that I've never seen a video that covers the system in its entirety and therefore you're unlikely to employ it usefully.


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## Papas1982 (May 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Honestly Dave I don't see the Aimpointers banging on to non users, we simply defend our decision to  take the course and to argue (rightly) that implementing it takes no more time than non Aimpointers do on the green. 

The question isn't whether he's the number one putter in the world, it's whether he feels he reads greens better as a result of taking the course.  You told me at RSG that you were using bits of it you'd seen on Utube - the problem is that I've never seen a video that covers the system in its entirety and therefore you're unlikely to employ it usefully.
		
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I watched lots on YouTube Chris to see what it was all about. And I do use the idea of feeling slope with my feet as eyes would regularly mislead me. But that's as far as it goes now as through lots of putting I feel that gives me a good eniugh idea. 

Ive seen a fair bit of the science of it too and accept that it could help. I've never said it's hocus pocus. Or that it slows the game either. 

Unfortunatley each time this convo comes up. Users will always say that as people haven't been on the course they can't possibly comment, which is wrong imo. We all make choices throughout life without researching every corner of it. 

The fact someone choose scott to back up the argument last night says it all. If it was that simple then 80% of the year surely aimpoint is useless as the majority of winners don't use it. 

I think topic should be on Red alert as it's always the same rubbish (from both sides). Users will never accept that people don't believe it. And people who don't believe it will always (tend to) belittle it.

i fully agree that the most important thing is that you have to believe it helps you putt better. It's just that a lot of people want tangeable proof. 

Aimpoint equates to religion in golf lol


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## MendieGK (May 12, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			I watched lots on YouTube Chris to see what it was all about. And I do use the idea of feeling slope with my feet as eyes would regularly mislead me. But that's as far as it goes now as through lots of putting I feel that gives me a good eniugh idea. 

Ive seen a fair bit of the science of it too and accept that it could help. I've never said it's hocus pocus. Or that it slows the game either. 

Unfortunatley each time this convo comes up. Users will always say that as people haven't been on the course they can't possibly comment, which is wrong imo. We all make choices throughout life without researching every corner of it. 

The fact someone choose scott to back up the argument last night says it all. If it was that simple then 80% of the year surely aimpoint is useless as the majority of winners don't use it. 

I think topic should be on Red alert as it's always the same rubbish (from both sides). Users will never accept that people don't believe it. And people who don't believe it will always (tend to) belittle it.

i fully agree that the most important thing is that you have to believe it helps you putt better. It's just that a lot of people want tangeable proof. 

Aimpoint equates to religion in golf lol
		
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Im pretty sure I didn't use Adam scott to back it up! I just said it was ironic, as whilst I was sat there writing my post I saw scott hole 2 25putts in a row.


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

MendieGK said:



			Im pretty sure I didn't use Adam scott to back it up! I just said it was ironic, as whilst I was sat there writing my post I saw scott hole 2 25putts in a row.
		
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I used Adam Scott as one of the users, and Justin Rose, but got told that both were poor putters - well, if you were Jordan Spieth you wouldn't look for a better way to read greens than you currently use. What I liked about the course was the certain way to determine the direction of the break as when I just looked at slopes etc from different angles i was often misreading the slope and double crossing myself. My own course has pretty small greens and I hardly ever use the fingers but do often assign a reading, but when I went to Woburn i tried it with varying degrees of success. 

I know you liked the course and so I'm preaching to the converted but I'm still looking for the one post that categorically says it doesn't work - with, of course, the proof!


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## Norrin Radd (May 12, 2017)

i have a question ,,,,,,, how many users are going to say its rubbish when they have shelled out hard earned to do the course .?
  i have no gripe with anyone using the method ,but i will say that i think it is just a way of having a pre shot routine rather than any actual hard fact science being involved,it seems that its all guess work at the end of the day and as such the best guessers will get the most from it . 
 when im playing and walking up towards the green im taking note of the general lay of the green and looking for slopes and borrows from distance .the field of vision is reduced to the specific area of where my ball is the nearer i get. im sure we all do this and for me what has been written about AP on here is taking things further .no problem but i will be relying on my vision a lot more than my feet to tell me that it falls left or right . 
   at the end of the day you either buy into the idea or you dont ,im not buying at the moment ,but in the future who knows?


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## DRW (May 12, 2017)

Many different ways of playing golf all the different swings, all the different ways of putting and so on.


If is works for you and helps you to improve your putting reading and you feel it does, then continue as you are and no need to justify it to me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Three said:



			EXACTLY!!! 

Not just pace, but direction also.   Flat putts break from the side to side if you are going sideways across the grain.
		
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And how do you practice your sensing of slope and hence the technique when your practice putting green is flat?


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## ger147 (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And how do you practice your sensing of slope and hence the technique when your practice putting green is flat?
		
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Practice on the course, either in non-comp games and solo practice or in at the deep end and use it in comps and see what happens.


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## JohnnyDee (May 12, 2017)

Could it perhaps be that both sides are approaching this point in the debate? :whoo:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

I am afraid that I tend towards the theory espoused earlier in this thread that, if someone spending time practicing their aimpoint technique spent the same length of time carefully focussed on developing a consistent putting routine - the result would be the same.  I might add myself that developing a consistent routine would probably be time better spent as it would be more resilient to loss of confidence in my putting.  If my trust and faith in Aimpoint falters - I have less to fall back on?


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## Slab (May 12, 2017)

I watched a couple of putter review videos from an aimpoint user and he didn't use aimpoint for any of the putts!


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## MendieGK (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And how do you practice your sensing of slope and hence the technique when your practice putting green is flat?
		
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Its ridiculous to think all putting greens are flat.


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## ger147 (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am afraid that I tend towards the theory espoused earlier in this thread that, if someone spending time practicing their aimpoint technique spent the same length of time carefully focussed on developing a consistent putting routine - the result would be the same.  I might add myself that developing a consistent routine would probably be time better spent as it would be more resilient to loss of confidence in my putting.  If my trust and faith in Aimpoint falters - I have less to fall back on?
		
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Aimpoint is not a method of putting, it's a method of green reading.

So IMO, there's no point in having a consistent putting routine if you can't work out what line to start your putt on, you need all the pieces to hole putts.

There are many ways to read greens and work out the line you want to start a putt on and Aimpoint is simply another method of doing that, nothing more and nothing less. I had an opportunity to try it out and I've found it to be very accurate for short to medium length putts but YMMV as they say.


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

Given some of the comments which ignore the fact that Aimpoint is a method of working out the break on a putt and has nothing whatsoever to do with how you swing the putter, how can anyone get better at putting if they never get the break right but their distance control is good?


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## brendy (May 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Given some of the comments which ignore the fact that Aimpoint is a method of working out the break on a putt and has nothing whatsoever to do with how you swing the putter, how can anyone get better at putting if they never get the break right but their distance control is good?
		
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To know exactly what a ball will do slope wise you'd need to know every inch of the putt, from what Ive seen the the aimpointer stands part way down the line, this is fine when the break is linear, there arent many of them about so it really is "thereaboutish" I can judge that simply by standing behind the ball and looking at the line. If I want a better idea Id check from both sides as I approach the green and before its my turn to putt anyway so to me you are introducing extra bits to your game that just make it more confusing, as for having to hone it through practice? Id rather spend any spare minutes before a round putting and trying to find a smooth stroke.


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

brendy said:



			To know exactly what a ball will do slope wise you'd need to know every inch of the putt, from what Ive seen the the aimpointer stands part way down the line, this is fine when the break is linear, there arent many of them about so it really is "thereaboutish" I can judge that simply by standing behind the ball and looking at the line. If I want a better idea Id check from both sides as I approach the green and before its my turn to putt anyway so to me you are introducing extra bits to your game that just make it more confusing, as for having to hone it through practice? Id rather spend any spare minutes before a round putting and trying to find a smooth stroke.
		
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No, nothing extra for me just different. My putting routine is still quick and certainly faster than someone who stalks from one end of his putt to the other looking from all directions


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## 3565 (May 12, 2017)

brendy said:



			To know exactly what a ball will do slope wise you'd need to know every inch of the putt, from what Ive seen the the aimpointer stands part way down the line, this is fine when the break is linear, there arent many of them about so it really is "thereaboutish" I can judge that simply by standing behind the ball and looking at the line. If I want a better idea Id check from both sides as I approach the green and before its my turn to putt anyway so to me you are introducing extra bits to your game that just make it more confusing, as for having to hone it through practice? Id rather spend any spare minutes before a round putting and trying to find a smooth stroke.
		
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Oh god yes, I spend more time on the putting green wondering if it's a 3.25% slope or 3.75%, if I'm unsure I get my slope gauge out to find its a 2 instead. That screws my head up, so let's work on getting pace right....... where's my stimp meter? .......... oh it's my tee time, best go..........&#128580;


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

3565 said:



			Oh god yes, I spend more time on the putting green wondering if it's a 3.25% slope or 3.75%, if I'm unsure I get my slope gauge out to find its a 2 instead. That screws my head up, so let's work on getting pace right....... where's my stimp meter? .......... oh it's my tee time, best go..........&#128580;
		
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Don't give up the day job, you don't seem cut out for stand up :lol:


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## Hosel Fade (May 12, 2017)

Slab said:



			I watched a couple of putter review videos from an aimpoint user and he didn't use aimpoint for any of the putts! 



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Tbf I would assume he was using a straight putt on a very familiar green to do the reviews. Sort of like I know where a straight 12' putt is on the putting greens of any club I have been a member of from when I was practicing my stroke mechanics.


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## Qwerty (May 12, 2017)

brendy said:



			To know exactly what a ball will do slope wise you'd need to know every inch of the putt, from what Ive seen the the aimpointer stands part way down the line, this is fine when the break is linear, there arent many of them about so it really is "thereaboutish" I can judge that simply by standing behind the ball and looking at the line. If I want a better idea Id check from both sides as I approach the green and before its my turn to putt anyway so to me you are introducing extra bits to your game that just make it more confusing, as for having to hone it through practice? Id rather spend any spare minutes before a round putting and trying to find a smooth stroke.
		
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I've been thinking similar Brendy.

Is the system only effective when used on putts with a Constant slope/ break throughout the length of the putt?
I'm curious as where I play the moorland greens are extremely varied and undulating. Can it possibly work on a putt with variable break?


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

Qwerty said:



			I've been thinking similar Brendy.

Is the system only effective when used on putts with a Constant slope/ break throughout the length of the putt?
I'm curious as where I play the moorland greens are extremely varied and undulating. Can it possibly work on a putt with variable break?
		
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No, there is a system for longer putts


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## Qwerty (May 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			No, there is a system for longer putts
		
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Thanks Chris :thup:


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## 3565 (May 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Don't give up the day job, you don't seem cut out for stand up :lol:
		
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Damn.........thought it was funny myself??? &#128514;


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## JohnnyDee (May 12, 2017)

I played today and putted like a God.

I holed two 25+ footers, lagged several 50 footers for a tap-in two-putt and 3-stabbed nothing at all over the entire 18. We took the money too but throughout I had this thread in my mind. To be honest it was vexing me and I didn't want to poo-poo the views of those pro-AP posters.

However I never once sought to feel the gradient under my feet, unless it was subliminally, neither did I stick a finger or fingers skyward in the hope they might give me information in respect of reading any putt I faced.

So as our America cousins might put it - "Go figure!"


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			I played today and putted like a God.

I holed two 25+ footers, lagged several 50 footers for a tap-in two-putt and 3-stabbed nothing at all over the 18. We took the money too but throughout I had this thread in my mind. To be honest it was vexing me and I didn't want to poo-poo the views of those pro-AP posters.

However I never once sought to feel the gradient under my feet, unless it was subliminally, neither did I stick a finger of fingers skyward in the hope they might give me information in respect of reading any putt I faced.

So as our America cousins might put it - "Go figure!"
		
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Then Aimpoint is not for you Johnny, but for those not blessed with superhuman putt reading powers ........


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## JohnnyDee (May 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Then Aimpoint is not for you Johnny, but for those not blessed with superhuman putt reading powers ........
		
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&#128077;&#128540;

Although it could easily all turn to  dog's poo come Forest Pines.

Like all other elements in golf it's all a bit ephemeral, Chris, but at least today was a good day.


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			&#128077;&#128540;

Although it could easily all turn to  dog's poo come Forest Pines.

Like all other elements in golf it's all a bit ephemeral, Chris, but at least today was a good day. 

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We need you at your best for Forest Pines ....... try and remember what you Did!


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## JohnnyDee (May 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			We need you at your best for Forest Pines ....... try and remember what you Did!
		
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Eh, what? Who said that? Nurse where's my medication?...I'm hearing voices...


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## chrisd (May 12, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Eh, what? Who said that? Nurse where's my medication?...I'm hearing voices...
		
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What a bummer that you're not in the Whippersnappers team! :smirk:


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## Three (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And how do you practice your sensing of slope and hence the technique when your practice putting green is flat?
		
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By playing golf.


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## JohnnyDee (May 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			What a bummer that you're not in the Whippersnappers team! :smirk:
		
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I could maybe be a plant :thup:


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## Norrin Radd (May 12, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			I could maybe be a plant :thup:
		
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.
JohnnyDee the TRIFFID ,yeh that`ll work .


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## ruff-driver (May 12, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			I could maybe be a plant :thup:
		
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You'll spent most of the weekend at forest pines in the trees anyway :rofl:


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## KingJulien (Jul 28, 2017)

I just realized I bumped this from May... Newbie here says sorry!


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## chrisd (Jul 28, 2017)

KingJulien said:



			I just realized I bumped this from May... Newbie here says sorry!
		
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That's you marked down as a trouble maker &#129315;&#129315;&#129315;


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## Green Bay Hacker (Jul 28, 2017)

Did someone mention Aimpoint! Now it has been brought up again, I watched Adam Scott at Birkdale last week on 14 and he seemed to take a bit of time getting the feel of the slope. Twice he walked down it but then sank the putt. The other players seemed to take just as long lining the putts up from the other side of the hole/green.

Scott did confuse my daughter though as she wanted to know why he was walking all over his line.


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## lukeysafc100 (Jul 28, 2017)

I'm certainly not a advocate of this technique and do not use it.

but I can imagine that if people struggle with the process of reading greens - it will certainly help

Can't be all nonsense - Justin rose uses it


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## garyinderry (Jul 28, 2017)

The thing that bothers me about it is the straddling of the line.   some that I have seen seem to be quite close to it. 


I'm not sure if you can straddle the line correctly on a really large breaking putt without first having the line.  You are more than likely going to step on it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2017)

I think Kuchars caddie was doing it for him, if not him then other player up near the top. It does seem odd, the whole treading on the line thing.


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## njrose51 (Jul 28, 2017)

Whilst I don't quite see how the finger guide thing works, I do often stand near my line to see if I can judge any subtle differences in slopes which then helps me read the line of the putt or reaffirms my initial thoughts.

Confidence building I suppose for me. 

But I also look quite closely at the green as I'm walking up as you can often see contours etc better. 

Each to their own.


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## Yant (Jul 28, 2017)

Using your feet to determine slope along the line of a putt makes perfect sense.  Using a finger to work out how far outside the hole you need to aim, doesn't.  For me.


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## Smiffy (Jul 28, 2017)

It's all bloody mumbo jumbo to me, and something else to worry about.
Just three putt and move on.


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## Jates12 (Jul 28, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			It's all bloody mumbo jumbo to me, and something else to worry about.
*Just three putt and move on*.
		
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Just got some funny looks in the office when i couldn't compose my howl. This is so true far too often :rofl:


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## GreggerKBR (Jul 28, 2017)

IN SUPPORT OF AIMPOINT - my little story

So I thought I had this all figured out as my putting has settled into "acceptable" standard.
Although I sensed some guys still holing more 5-20ft putts than me.

Anyway, I went to Royal St Georges and had the benefit of a caddy giving me the read on the greens and I very quickly learned to trust him and learned that my reads are mostly quite a way off.  I wish I could read greens like him but simply - I don't, I got it wrong 50% of the time.

So last night I went back to my course, with my AimPoint notes and got reading the targets according to AimPoint
And then...  *I started holing putts from everywhere!!!  *and that wasn't what happened when I first used Aimpoint - curiously?
But - the big difference is I've retrained my technicals so that I can hit a putt on line at the speed I want and I wasn't doing that before.

I don't care how I get the right read, but it's essential to successful putting.
Clearly not using AP properly I wasn't getting it right by a long way.
So using AimPoint is a great help to me personally - but in context you have to be able to do the line and speed part.

Interestingly I still found a putt I could not feel through my feet.  
It was only 0.5 inch left of cup but I couldn't feel it through my feet at all.
Or by eyesite for that matter.  And it wasn't the wind.


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## louise_a (Jul 28, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			It's all bloody mumbo jumbo to me, and something else to worry about.
Just three putt and move on.
		
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Works for me!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2017)

GreggerKBR said:



			IN SUPPORT OF AIMPOINT - my little story

So I thought I had this all figured out as my putting has settled into "acceptable" standard.
Although I sensed some guys still holing more 5-20ft putts than me.

Anyway, I went to Royal St Georges and had the benefit of a caddy giving me the read on the greens and I very quickly learned to trust him and learned that my reads are mostly quite a way off.  I wish I could read greens like him but simply - I don't, I got it wrong 50% of the time.

So last night I went back to my course, with my AimPoint notes and got reading the targets according to AimPoint
And then...  *I started holing putts from everywhere!!!  *and that wasn't what happened when I first used Aimpoint - curiously?
But - the big difference is I've retrained my technicals so that I can hit a putt on line at the speed I want and I wasn't doing that before.

I don't care how I get the right read, but it's essential to successful putting.
Clearly not using AP properly I wasn't getting it right by a long way.
So using AimPoint is a great help to me personally - but in context you have to be able to do the line and speed part.

Interestingly I still found a putt I could not feel through my feet.  
It was only 0.5 inch left of cup but I couldn't feel it through my feet at all.
Or by eyesite for that matter.  And it wasn't the wind.
		
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How are your scores now ? Is the Handicap coming down ?


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## Khamelion (Jul 28, 2017)

I started the year with a HC of 21, now 19, some of that is down to hitting the ball better, some short game practice and some down to sinking more putts. I've had more 1 putts this year than I can remember and can safely say that while 3 putts are not totally banished they are a very rare occurrence now, so in that respect aimpoint has helped my a lot.


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## 3565 (Jul 28, 2017)

Khamelion said:



			I started the year with a HC of 21, now 19, some of that is down to hitting the ball better, some short game practice and some down to sinking more putts. I've had more 1 putts this year than I can remember and can safely say that while 3 putts are not totally banished they are a very rare occurrence now, so in that respect aimpoint has helped my a lot.
		
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And reducing the amount of 3 putts will inevitably speed up play which is one of the biggest bug bears on this site, so theirs a plus.  And congrats on reducing the hc, anyone who thinks that Aimpoint alone will reduce your hc is barking, hell let's all buy the latest TM driver and we'll get DJ's driving distance, that's bound to get us down in handicap. Lol.


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## bobmac (Jul 28, 2017)

3565 said:



			anyone who thinks that Aimpoint alone will reduce your hc is barking,
		
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So the idea of Aimpoint isn't to sink more putts?


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## Yant (Jul 28, 2017)

the idea of Aimpoint to assist in your ability to be able to read greens.


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## bobmac (Jul 28, 2017)

Yant said:



			the idea of Aimpoint to assist in your ability to be able to read greens.
		
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........to help you sink more putts.


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## Smiffy (Jul 28, 2017)

bobmac said:



			........to help you sink more putts.
		
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I'd like to sink less


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2017)

bobmac said:



			........to help you sink more putts.
		
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Bingo - i would expect that when someone says -"before I couldn't sink putts" now I when someone says "holing them from everywhere" I would expect that to mean less shots on the hole and reflecting on the scores and HC


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## bobmac (Jul 28, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I'd like to sink less
		
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All right ya knob
sink longer putts


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## TheJezster (Jul 28, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Bingo - i would expect that when someone says -"before I couldn't sink putts" now I when someone says "holing them from everywhere" I would expect that to mean less shots on the hole and reflecting on the scores and HC
		
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It might do after time.  But to counter your stance, if your HC isn't going down, perhaps those who aren't using Aimpoint SHOULD?  That's kinda where you are going with this.. It's the natural counter argument to your point.

There isn't a right and a wrong.  It WILL work for some, and clearly it does, it wont for all.  Those who have their mind closed to it and have never been taught it don't really have a valid view.  How can they?  They don't know how it works properly.

I'm sure that many who use it will have found their HC to come down, I'm also sure plenty more who don't use it will find the opposite.  

Peoples HC comes down for a variety of reasons, putting is one of those.

My stance is I don't know enough about it to form an opinion either way but I know this so wont take an anti aimpoint view (or positive one for that matter) until such time as I try it properly.


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## 3565 (Jul 28, 2017)

bobmac said:



			So the idea of Aimpoint isn't to sink more putts?
		
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You can stand there all day long sticking fingers in the air, get your protractor out, and spirit levels or any other advanced measuring device, but like a DMD for yardage, AP only tells you the amount of break. If you got no sense of direction, speed or putter control then that ain't down to AP, that's you. You can have all the putting aids you want like your V thingy, but if you aim at the apex of the putt with 'correct' speed, your mis reading greens.


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## 3565 (Jul 28, 2017)

TheJezster said:



			It might do after time.  But to counter your stance, if your HC isn't going down, perhaps those who aren't using Aimpoint SHOULD?  That's kinda where you are going with this.. It's the natural counter argument to your point.

There isn't a right and a wrong.  It WILL work for some, and clearly it does, it wont for all.  Those who have their mind closed to it and have never been taught it don't really have a valid view.  How can they?  They don't know how it works properly.

I'm sure that many who use it will have found their HC to come down, I'm also sure plenty more who don't use it will find the opposite.  

Peoples HC comes down for a variety of reasons, putting is one of those.

My stance is I don't know enough about it to form an opinion either way but I know this so wont take an anti aimpoint view (or positive one for that matter) until such time as I try it properly.
		
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NOW THATS A BINGO. 

well said and written and I respect your point of view. More then I can say for others.


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## brendy (Jul 28, 2017)

3565 said:



			You can stand there all day long sticking fingers in the air, get your protractor out, and spirit levels or any other advanced measuring device, but like a DMD for yardage, AP only tells you the amount of break. If you got no sense of direction, speed or putter control then that ain't down to AP, that's you. You can have all the putting aids you want like your V thingy, but if you aim at the apex of the putt with 'correct' speed, your mis reading greens.
		
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This, facts and figures still need natural ability to do the job.


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## GreggerKBR (Jul 28, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How are your scores now ? Is the Handicap coming down ?
		
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I'm very pleased to report that YES is!  Down from 15 to 8... and I'm beating 3-5 handicaps in scratch matches!
But that's not just down to AimPoint "incremental gains" in all areas.

My average putts per round are down, Putts / GIR are down.  And don't miss many from inside 4ft now.
I'm rolling long putts much better and having kick-ins rather than 4-5 footers.
Most importantly I'm not having a melt down when left with a 4-5 footer...

I wasn't happy with my putting, I'm still not happy, it can and will get better.
My point in my story was this - I had numerous problems, one of them was and still is green reading.
AimPoint helps me to be better at it.  
_So if someone else has problems in green reading, AimPoint is something they could conside_r.

We can all have different viewpoints on differing learning/coaching technicals but if they are *proven to work then they are valid.*
I was _providing evidence that AimPoint has/does work given an ability to set the ball off on target at the right speeds
_
I didn't laugh at people with long anchored putters or Michelle Wie type stances etc etc
And I really know what it's like to miss makeable putts that are important to me.

If you don't have such pain you might not feel the need to seek such solutions...


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## 3565 (Jul 28, 2017)

brendy said:



			This, facts and figures still need natural ability to do the job.
		
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Exactly. A DMD doesn't get the ball to the hole, it helps with the process, but that alone won't get your hc down.


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## Yant (Jul 28, 2017)

3565 said:



			You can stand there all day long sticking fingers in the air, get your protractor out, and spirit levels or any other advanced measuring device, but like a DMD for yardage, AP only tells you the amount of break. If you got no sense of direction, speed or putter control then that ain't down to AP, that's you. You can have all the putting aids you want like your V thingy, but if you aim at the apex of the putt with 'correct' speed, your mis reading greens.
		
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This is my point when i answered the question earlier about what is the idea of Aimpoint.  it's isn't for holing putts.  It's for reading greens to work out where you should be aiming.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2017)

GreggerKBR said:



			I'm very pleased to report that YES is!  Down from 15 to 8... and I'm beating 3-5 handicaps in scratch matches!
But that's not just down to AimPoint "incremental gains" in all areas.

My average putts per round are down, Putts / GIR are down.  And don't miss many from inside 4ft now.
I'm rolling long putts much better and having kick-ins rather than 4-5 footers.
Most importantly I'm not having a melt down when left with a 4-5 footer...

I wasn't happy with my putting, I'm still not happy, it can and will get better.
My point in my story was this - I had numerous problems, one of them was and still is green reading.
AimPoint helps me to be better at it.  
_So if someone else has problems in green reading, AimPoint is something they could conside_r.

We can all have different viewpoints on differing learning/coaching technicals but if they are *proven to work then they are valid.*
I was _providing evidence that AimPoint has/does work given an ability to set the ball off on target at the right speeds
_
I didn't laugh at people with long anchored putters or Michelle Wie type stances etc etc
And I really know what it's like to miss makeable putts that are important to me.

If you don't have such pain you might not feel the need to seek such solutions...
		
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 No one is laughing at you and nor would I 

It's good to see someone indeed try something and find something that helps them with their game , it's even better when that improvement in their game can be quantified in the results they are getting. It's the first person I have seen that can show the improvements to their game 

Reading through your post the main improvement I can see is - confidence in your putting


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## GreggerKBR (Jul 28, 2017)

Yes, agree, I have more confidence in that I know what I am trying to do and I don't deviate from method.
Before I was spinning in a state of "why did that miss?" reactions etc.

Stato numbers - just because I've too much time on my hands!
Year:  Putts per round :  3=putts/round and Putts/Green in Reg.

2015 = 33.4 putts/round  :  3-putts = 2.0/round  :  (Putts/GIR 2.01)
2016 = 33.2 putts/round  :  3-putts = 1.7/round  :  (Putts/GIR 1.95)
2017 = 32.1 putts/round  :  3-putts = 0.9/round  :  (Putts/GIR 1.74)

(accepting however that all stats are flawed!)

I've said before on other threads that Mike Kanski @ Harold Swash / Formby is a proper guru = credit where credit due.


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## Yant (Jul 28, 2017)

Anything under 30 putts a round and i'm happy.  Unfortunately it's a rarity for me.  It's the worst part of my game.


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## Orikoru (Jul 28, 2017)

Yant said:



			This is my point when i answered the question earlier about what is the idea of Aimpoint.  it's isn't for holing putts.  It's for reading greens to work out where you should be aiming.
		
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Objectively speaking, wouldn't working out where to aim help you hole more putts? Otherwise why bother?


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## Smiffy (Jul 28, 2017)

Yant said:



			Anything under 30 putts a round and i'm happy.  Unfortunately it's a rarity for me.  It's the worst part of my game.
		
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Haven't you got a 9 hole course around your way???


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## Yant (Jul 28, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Haven't you got a 9 hole course around your way???
		
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I was level par after 1!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 28, 2017)

3565 said:



			anyone who thinks that Aimpoint alone will reduce your hc is barking,  Lol.
		
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I know. Forget all the other facets that go to make a good score and a handicap cut. If you use Aimpoint some on here who ask the same question every time the subject comes up, find it a convenient hook to try and disprove how effective it works.


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## 3565 (Jul 28, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I know. Forget all the other facets that go to make a good score and a handicap cut. If you use Aimpoint some on here who ask the same question every time the subject comes up, find it a convenient hook to try and disprove how effective it works.
		
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Mmmm we could say that those who buy a Â£350-Â£400 driver of TM or Epic proportions surely their hc should of improved to quantify the expenditure? 
I had to chuckle about the confidence remark, to gain confidence you have to change in what your used to, trying or doing like changing driver, putter, irons or getting a lesson. He decided to re visit AP and through a change and practise he has GAINED confidence, so AP has helped in his game, just like a new driver, putter and what for can.


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