# Refereeing, again.



## SaintHacker (Dec 29, 2013)

So, two games ruined by shocking refereeing again today. Southampton utterly shafted by Mark Clattenburg (again), and Liverpool denied at least one absolute stonewall penalty by Howard Webb, who is apparently the top ref in the country. This is becoming a common theme every weekend now, and with so much money etc riding on each game, is it fair to have people so obviously not up to the job in charge? Is it time to bring in video refs in the stands? Extra officials as the have in UCL games? Or is there genuinely an agenda at the FA towards certain clubs?


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## brendy (Dec 29, 2013)

Points are being binned on a weekly basis due to poor decisions or lack of balls to make them)
Webb is a good ref and sees most things for himself but he really dropped a clanger in that incident today. Gary Neville (Mr ManU) even couldnt believe it. The Man City match could have been very different too when Sterlings run from yards onside was flagged by what looked like an unfit linesman. As much as I hate to say it, Liverpool will struggle to get top three as long as wrong (or lack of)  decisions repeatedly go against them.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 29, 2013)




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## palindromicbob (Dec 29, 2013)

SaintHacker said:



			So, two games ruined by shocking refereeing again today. Southampton utterly shafted by Mark Clattenburg (again), and Liverpool denied at least one absolute stonewall penalty by Howard Webb, who is apparently the top ref in the country. This is becoming a common theme every weekend now, and with so much money etc riding on each game, is it fair to have people so obviously not up to the job in charge? Is it time to bring in video refs in the stands? Extra officials as the have in UCL games? Or is there genuinely an agenda at the FA towards certain clubs?
		
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Have you ever seen one of those extra officials in the UCL make a decision?


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## chrisd (Dec 29, 2013)

I have no allegiance to either Chelsea or Liverpool but Howard Webb completely bottled the penalty decision!


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## Karl102 (Dec 29, 2013)

Whilst I agree with all said here. Did anybody see the AV v West Ham game on MOTD where there was 2 studs up over the ball tackles ad not one red card?!? The scissor tackle on Lucas was also a shocker.... A month ago people were seeing red for these... Consistency please....


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## SaintHacker (Dec 29, 2013)

Karl102 said:



			Whilst I agree with all said here. Did anybody see the AV v West Ham game on MOTD where there was 2 studs up over the ball tackles ad not one red card?!? The scissor tackle on Lucas was also a shocker.... A month ago people were seeing red for these... Consistency please....
		
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Same again yesterday, Carlton Cole foot up straight into the WBA lads leg, left with two huge stud marks down his thigh. Straight red, no question. So he gets away with a yellow.


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## Karl102 (Dec 29, 2013)

SaintHacker said:



			Same again yesterday, Carlton Cole foot up straight into the WBA lads leg, left with two huge stud marks down his thigh. Straight red, no question. So he gets away with a yellow.
		
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Saw that... Was also a shocker...


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 29, 2013)

The extra refs started in the Europa League and I never saw them give a single decision especially anything controversial like a penalty. They seemed just competent enough to give corner or goal kick. I do think Liverpool were denied a penalty. I'm sure the standard of refereeing in the PL has dropped but is still better than much on offer around Europe.


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## Dodger (Dec 29, 2013)

Every weekend is littered with them so it amazes me that folk are surprised by it.

Yesterday Rooney staying on the pitch was a puzzle....the list could go on and on,my team had a shocking offside decision go against them but hey why worry there will be dozens more before the season ends!


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## Fyldewhite (Dec 29, 2013)

For me Suarez conned the ref into thinking it was a dive. Irony eh?


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## Wabinez (Dec 29, 2013)

These things have a tendency to even themselves out over the season...so I wouldn't worry.  At the end of the day, there is a human element in every decision made.  One ref might see a certain challenge as a booking, one ref might think it is a sending off.  I think we just have to accept that and move on.  Football is a fast paced game, and introducing "video refs" would just ruin the sport.  The goal-line tech has been a great decision, as it takes less than a second (i believe) for an answer to be given...so it doesn't slow down play so much


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2013)

Because, as we all know, refereeing a game played by uber-fast, uber-fit professional cheats and no replays is really very, very easy.
Strikers miss sitters, goalkeepers miss easy saves, defenders miss easy tackles/interceptions and referees miss obvious fouls .................. but .................... we only talk about the refs, not the Â£100,000+ per week professional sportsmen.
If it was that simple we'd all do it!


*Slime*.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 29, 2013)

Slime said:



			Because, as we all know, refereeing a game played by uber-fast, uber-fit professional cheats and no replays is really very, very easy.
Strikers miss sitters, goalkeepers miss easy saves, defenders miss easy tackles/interceptions and referees miss obvious fouls .................. but .................... we only talk about the refs, not the Â£100,000+ per week professional sportsmen.
If it was that simple we'd all do it!


*Slime*.
		
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Very good point mate.


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## richart (Dec 29, 2013)

How did Eto'o not even get even a yellow card for his tackle on Henderson. Seems that if you commit such a foul at the beginning of a match it is ok. Should have been a straight red, and Henderson was lucky not to be seriously injured.


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2013)

richart said:



			How did Eto'o not even get even a yellow card for his tackle on Henderson. Seems that if you commit such a foul at the beginning of a match it is ok. Should have been a straight red, and Henderson was lucky not to be seriously injured.
		
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I knew it should have been a red card as soon as I saw it ................................... on the slow motion replay .


*Slime*.


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## Wabinez (Dec 29, 2013)

Slime said:



			I knew it should have been a red card as soon as I saw it ................................... on the slow motion replay .


*Slime*.
		
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Quite possibly the best point made.  In real-time, it is just a foul.  In slow motion, it's slightly more.  TV pundits harp on saying the ref has made a mistake, but in real time, it has happened so quickly!  TV pundits also have the benefit of 5 different angles of every incident...so they can really show everything at its worst!


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## jp5 (Dec 29, 2013)

In real time it was obvious that Eto'o went in with his foot at knee height and caught Henderson on the knee. Webb had an excellent view. Not a difficult decision. The standard of officiating in football is so poor compared to other sports.


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2013)

jp5 said:



			In real time it was obvious that Eto'o went in with his foot at knee height and caught Henderson on the knee. Webb had an excellent view. Not a difficult decision. The standard of officiating in football is so poor compared to other sports.
		
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Maybe ......................... or maybe it's that the standard of cheating in football is so high compared to other sports!

*Slime*.


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2013)

Wabinez said:



			Quite possibly the best point made.  In real-time, it is just a foul.  In slow motion, it's slightly more.  TV pundits harp on saying the ref has made a mistake, but in real time, it has happened so quickly!  *TV pundits also have the benefit of 5 different angles of every incident*...so they can really show everything at its worst!
		
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.............. and whilst watching said replays they are not impeded by people running accross their line of sight either.

*Slime*.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 29, 2013)

Slime said:



			I knew it should have been a red card as soon as I saw it ................................... on the slow motion replay .


*Slime*.
		
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Wabinez said:



			Quite possibly the best point made.  In real-time, it is just a foul.  In slow motion, it's slightly more.  TV pundits harp on saying the ref has made a mistake, but in real time, it has happened so quickly!  TV pundits also have the benefit of 5 different angles of every incident...so they can really show everything at its worst!
		
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Exactly.  Sat in the ground today it wasn't at all obvious that Eto'o had caught him in that manner.  Most of us wondered what the free kick had been given for.



jp5 said:



			In real time it was obvious that Eto'o went in with his foot at knee height and caught Henderson on the knee. Webb had an excellent view. Not a difficult decision. The standard of officiating in football is so poor compared to other sports.
		
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No it wasn't.  Even the Sky pundits, sat behind me, needed the slow motion to determine what it was.

Whilst we are on the subject of inconsistency, maybe we could add pundits to the list?  Gary Neville's assertion that Lucas was entitled to react as he did to Oscar's tackle was possibly the most ridiculous comment I have heard from a pundit.  Understandable, yes, but not an entitlement.  And the blatant inconsistency regarding penalties beggars belief.  I can't remember which pundit it was, I think it was Neville, in the Arsenal Chelsea game said there was a stonewall penalty by Willian on Walcott.  The summation was that there was contact, not enough to knock him over, but that Walcott felt the contact was entitled to go down.  Surely if there was insufficient contact to cause the player to go over but he does, then that is simulation, not a stonewall penalty?  Yet Neville then accuses Hazard of looking for it in an incident that was far more a penalty than the Walcott or Suarez incidents ever were.

As regards Howard Webb, what was most confusing today was his total inconsistency with the cards.  I'm not questioning the ones issued to Luiz, Cahill & Oscar (although Terry's was a joke), but if he sees those as fouls, then why not Agger's block off of Hazard, or Lucas' assault on Oscar?


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## MadAdey (Dec 30, 2013)

Referees make mistakes and we need to accept that it is going to happen. My problem is when a referee bottles a decision like the Henderson one yesterday. Webb was next to it, so had a great view of the incident, but did not send etoo off like the book says he should, please put me right if I am wrong, but tackles like that are straight reds aren't they?  The offside against at Man City was an absolute shocker, it was not even close, he was a good 3 or 4 yards onside.

That is my problem with refs. They can clearly see something but choose t bottle it, or they just make an absolute mess of things.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 30, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Referees make mistakes and we need to accept that it is going to happen. My problem is when a referee bottles a decision like the Henderson one yesterday. Webb was next to it, so had a great view of the incident, but did not send etoo off like the book says he should, please put me right if I am wrong, but tackles like that are straight reds aren't they?  The offside against at Man City was an absolute shocker, it was not even close, he was a good 3 or 4 yards onside.

That is my problem with refs. They can clearly see something but choose t bottle it, or they just make an absolute mess of things.
		
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Suggest you become a referee,  then they'll be no need for these boring threads.


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## MadAdey (Dec 30, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			Suggest you become a referee,  then they'll be no need for these boring threads.
		
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?????????????? 

Your point being?


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Exactly.  Sat in the ground today it wasn't at all obvious that Eto'o had caught him in that manner.  Most of us wondered what the free kick had been given for.



No it wasn't.  Even the Sky pundits, sat behind me, needed the slow motion to determine what it was.

Whilst we are on the subject of inconsistency, maybe we could add pundits to the list?  Gary Neville's assertion that Lucas was entitled to react as he did to Oscar's tackle was possibly the most ridiculous comment I have heard from a pundit.  Understandable, yes, but not an entitlement.  And the blatant inconsistency regarding penalties beggars belief.  I can't remember which pundit it was, I think it was Neville, in the Arsenal Chelsea game said there was a stonewall penalty by Willian on Walcott.  The summation was that there was contact, not enough to knock him over, but that Walcott felt the contact was entitled to go down.  *Surely if there was insufficient contact to cause the player to go over but he does, then that is simulation, not a stonewall penalty?  Yet Neville then accuses Hazard of looking for it in an incident that was far more a penalty than the Walcott or Suarez incidents ever were.
*
As regards Howard Webb, what was most confusing today was his total inconsistency with the cards.  I'm not questioning the ones issued to Luiz, Cahill & Oscar (although Terry's was a joke), but if he sees those as fouls, then why not Agger's block off of Hazard, or Lucas' assault on Oscar?
		
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Good point, well made. I agree 100% that contact does not mean foul ............... football is not a non-contact sport ............... yet.
And then you spoil it by suggesting that Hazard should have had a penalty! Hazard should have been penalised for flinging out his right leg & catching his opponent, a la Pires of years ago. Walcott WAS fouled, as was Suarez, and both should have received penalties. That much was obvious before watching replays!


*Slime*.


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## Dodger (Dec 30, 2013)

Look, how many times have we sat at games and questioned Ref/Linesmen's decisions then when watching it at home after the game that decision is proved to be correct or even incorrect?

We have all been there.It happens,it is part of the game so deal with it.

1966 anyone?:smirk:


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Look, how many times have we sat at games and questioned Ref/Linesmen's decisions then when watching it at home after the game that decision is proved to be correct or even incorrect?
We have all been there.It happens,it is part of the game so deal with it.

*1966 anyone?*:smirk:

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Oy, that was miles over the line and you know it! 


*Slime*.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 30, 2013)

Dodger said:



			1966 anyone?:smirk:

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In black and white it was a perfectly good goal...

With subsequent viewings in colour I am now not so sure ...


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## MegaSteve (Dec 30, 2013)

Think it a bit unnecessary for Mourinho to be saying Suarez dived...


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Think it a bit unnecessary for Mourinho to be saying Suarez dived...
		
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I suspect he's trying to deflect attention from his own team's contoversies ................ such as the Eto'o tackle on Lucas.
I also find it hilarious coming from a man who has managed some of the games' best divers of all time, such as Robben, Drogba and now Hazard. Mourinho is a genuine clown ............... I mean character. 
I'm glad he's in English football because he's a real character and that's good for the game.
I'm glad he's at Chelsea because he's a real clown ................ they somehow compliment each other don't you think?


*Slime*.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 30, 2013)

Slime said:



			I suspect he's trying to deflect attention from his own team's contoversies ................ such as the Eto'o tackle on Lucas.
I also find it hilarious coming from a man who has managed some of the games' best divers of all time, such as Robben, Drogba and now Hazard. Mourinho is a genuine clown ............... I mean character. 
I'm glad he's in English football because he's a real character and that's good for the game.
I'm glad he's at Chelsea because he's a real clown ................ they somehow compliment each other don't you think?


*Slime*.
		
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Don't think I'd describe him as a clown... I am sure he has reasons for what he says at press conferences... But believe, now he has some grey hairs, he should show some maturity to match...


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 30, 2013)

Slime said:



			Good point, well made. I agree 100% that contact does not mean foul ............... football is not a non-contact sport ............... yet.
And then you spoil it by suggesting that Hazard should have had a penalty! Hazard should have been penalised for flinging out his right leg & catching his opponent, a la Pires of years ago. Walcott WAS fouled, as was Suarez, and both should have received penalties. That much was obvious before watching replays!


*Slime*.
		
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The point wasn't about whether or not it was a penalty Slime, the point was made to highlight the hypocrisy of pundits.  Regardless of whether Hazard stuck his leg out or not, he had control of the ball and Lucas clattered into him, managing to avoid the allegedly dangled leg completely, and there was more than sufficient force to knock him over.  Therefore the case for it being a penalty was much stronger than the Walcott one where he felt contact, thought about it and then fell over of his own accord.  I didn't say it was a penalty, I said it was a stronger case for one than another that I believe the same pundit had called the other way round, and had actually condoned simulation over.  I'm not saying either one was or wasn't, although ultimately neither were because the referee in each instance says so.

My issue with the pundits is that they are even more inconsistent than the referees.  When some players dangle legs and are caught, they are clever, they drew the challenge, they are entitled to go down with minimal contact, they earned the penalty and all is fair and above board.  When other players do something almost identical, they were looking for it, there wasn't anything there, the referees should be picking up on it and the dirty little cheat should be carded.  And it seems to depend on the pundit and the team involved rather than the actions on the field.  Exactly as per the Oscar Lucas incident, where Neville slated Oscar but defended Lucas' right to slap him about a bit after.  That's the same Lucas who after the challenge went after Oscar, got up to his feet ready to take on the world, then 30 seconds later was rolling around on the deck again like he'd been shot.  No condemnation of Lucas' actions whatsoever.

Oh, and the Hazard non-penalty is an absolute stonewall penalty according to Shearer................


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

So refs once again deny us stonewall pen and should have sent off Etoo - ref bottled it.

It's all confirmed by Maureen as well.


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So refs once again deny us stonewall pen and should have sent off Etoo - ref bottled it.

It's all confirmed by Maureen as well.
		
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I'm sure refs work for you as much as against you .................. especially at Anfield.
The problem with being a football fan is that, like it or not, we are all too myopic and can't help being biased toward the club we follow, and I'm just as bad as the next one .......... I just don't accept it as so! 


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

Slime said:



			I'm sure refs work for you as much as against you .................. especially at Anfield.
The problem with being a football fan is that, like it or not, we are all too myopic and can't help being biased toward the club we follow, and I'm just as bad as the next one .......... I just don't accept it as so! 


*Slime*.
		
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There is no doubt we have had decisions go our way 

But the last two matches have cost up possibly 6 points - that could be the difference between 
CL or not. If it does even out over the season then there is no complaints but it should have to even itself out - refs should get the big decisions right


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't even think it was a penalty.Maybe Eto should have been sent off for the early challenge in the game.


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			The point wasn't about whether or not it was a penalty Slime, the point was made to highlight the hypocrisy of pundits.  *Regardless of whether Hazard stuck his leg out or not, he had control of the ball and Lucas clattered into him, managing to avoid the allegedly dangled leg completely, and there was more than sufficient force to knock him over. * Therefore the case for it being a penalty was much stronger than the Walcott one where he felt contact, thought about it and then fell over of his own accord.  I didn't say it was a penalty, I said it was a stronger case for one than another that I believe the same pundit had called the other way round, and had actually condoned simulation over.  I'm not saying either one was or wasn't, although ultimately neither were because the referee in each instance says so.
		
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Sorry *Blue*, I saw the incident totally differently, and maybe that's the whole nub of the problem .................... interpretation.
I saw the same event as you did but my interpretation was that Hazard, upon realising that he'd lost control of the ball, saw Lucas coming and then deliberately manufactured the contact, by sticking his right leg out at a totally unnatural angle, in order to gain a penalty. 
Oh, and I'm neither a Chelsea or a Liverpool fan and therefore have no particular axe to grind.

*Slime*.


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no doubt we have had decisions go our way 

*But the last two matches have cost up possibly 6 points *- that could be the difference between 
CL or not. If it does even out over the season then there is no complaints but it should have to even itself out - refs should get the big decisions right
		
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And the previous 17 matches?


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

Slime said:



			And the previous 17 matches?


*Slime*.
		
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Well I'm struggling to remember too many instances that have helped us gain points these season- so at the moment I don't see things evening themselves out just yet.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no doubt we have had decisions go our way
		
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Dam right.

How about an equaliser 8 minutes into added time of 6 minutes scored by a player who did a tackle just like Eto'o and a player who should have been sent off for biting. Frankie Lampard's sending off when he was the one kicked, oh, and lest we forget the "ghost goal" in the Champions League. So please yes, decisions do swing and fro...

Look like Suarez was tempted AGAIN




But hey, even Bob the Builder stayed at No1 over Christmas longer than Liverpool, so...




:smirk:


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

Fish said:



			Dam right.

How about an equaliser 8 minutes into added time of 6 minutes scored by a player who did a tackle just like Eto'o and a player who should have been sent off for biting. Frankie Lampard's sending off when he was the one kicked, oh, and lest we forget the "ghost goal" in the Champions League. So please yes, decisions do swing and fro...

Look like Suarez was tempted AGAIN

View attachment 8554


But hey, even Bob the Builder stayed at No1 over Christmas longer than Liverpool, so...

View attachment 8555


:smirk:
		
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So your going back years ? Where as this season is the relevant one.

Going back years opens up a whole can of worms.


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So your going back years ? Where as this season is the relevant one.

Going back years opens up a whole can of worms.
		
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I'm just stating, with all the bleating that is going on, what goes around comes around, we've been hard done by on many occasions, it happens, yesterdays game is exactly that, yesterday, everyone should just get over it and move on....:smirk:


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## smange (Dec 30, 2013)

Fish said:



			Dam right.

*How about an equaliser 8 minutes into added time of 6 *minutes scored by a player who did a tackle just like Eto'o and a player who should have been sent off for biting. Frankie Lampard's sending off when he was the one kicked, oh, and lest we forget the "ghost goal" in the Champions League. So please yes, decisions do swing and fro...

Look like Suarez was tempted AGAIN

View attachment 8554


But hey, even Bob the Builder stayed at No1 over Christmas longer than Liverpool, so...

View attachment 8555


:smirk:
		
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What is it about this sentence that most football fans just don't seem to understand "the fourth official has indicated a minimum xxx (whatever number it is) minutes added time"

It's a minumum, the referee then adds on any time which he has stopped the watch for during the half and for any injuries/stoppages/time wasting/substitutions which happen during the initial amount of added time.

We have had the fourth official indicating this for a good few years now and still people don't get it.....it's a minimum


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## smange (Dec 30, 2013)

Plus if you want to see bad refereeing tune in to Sky Sports 2 tonight and watch my wee team be on the end of god knows how many poor decisions against The Rangers 

Come On Ye Pars!!


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well *I'm struggling to remember too many instances that have helped us gain points this season*- so at the moment I don't see things evening themselves out just yet.
		
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But that's the whole point. 
Being a supporter of a particular club, in your case Liverpool, one tends not to see too many bad decisions that go our way, and if we do ........................ we quickly forget most of them.
Please don't think I'm getting at you *Liverpoolphil*, I am just as myopic, and so are at least 99% of all football fans if they were really honest. It's all part of the job, it goes with the territory and, as a supporter of any given team, it's what we do.


*Slime*.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 30, 2013)

Fish said:



			Dam right.

How about an equaliser 8 minutes into added time of 6 minutes scored by a player who did a tackle just like Eto'o and a player who should have been sent off for biting. Frankie Lampard's sending off when he was the one kicked, oh, and lest we forget the "ghost goal" in the Champions League. So please yes, decisions do swing and fro...

Look like Suarez was tempted AGAIN

View attachment 8554


But hey, even Bob the Builder stayed at No1 over Christmas longer than Liverpool, so...

View attachment 8555


:smirk:
		
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Haha come on Fishy bringing up a decision from 8yrs ago made by a foreign ref has no comparison whatsoever.

High dangerous tackles should be punished across the game but they're not. We've had a few decisions go against which i'll take, just no moaning when we get them


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

Fish said:



			I'm just stating, with all the bleating that is going on, what goes around comes around, we've been hard done by on many occasions, it happens, yesterdays game is exactly that, yesterday, everyone should just get over it and move on....:smirk:
		
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Listen to your manager you would think you were hard done also 

Sorry but going back to debatable decisions like the ghost ( it was a goal) goal is irrelevant to what happened yesterday 

Yesterday the rev bottled it and it cost us points - so yes I will be unhappy about because I'm pretty sure if the foot was on the other foot you would be telling anyone to get over it


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

smange said:



*Come On Ye Pars!!*

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*Come On Ye Pars indeed.
*DAFC are my Scottish club of choice and have been since I was a wee lad.
It's a sympathy thing dating back to, I think, the 50's or 60's.


*Slime*.

P.S. Sorry chaps, that was a bit off topic.


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## delc (Dec 30, 2013)

SaintHacker said:



			So, two games ruined by shocking refereeing again today. Southampton utterly shafted by Mark Clattenburg (again), and Liverpool denied at least one absolute stonewall penalty by Howard Webb, who is apparently the top ref in the country. This is becoming a common theme every weekend now, and with so much money etc riding on each game, is it fair to have people so obviously not up to the job in charge? Is it time to bring in video refs in the stands? Extra officials as the have in UCL games? Or is there genuinely an agenda at the FA towards certain clubs?
		
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I had a go at refereeing when I gave up football. With the amount of cheating and simulation (diving to you) that goes on, it is definitely not as easy as it looks on TV.  You also have to make instant decisions without the benefit of umpteen slow motion replays from all different angles.  Most refs do an honest job to the best of their ability, so please give them a break!


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

delc said:



			I had a go at refereeing when I gave up football. With the amount of cheating and simulation (diving to you) that goes on, it is definitely not as easy as it looks on TV.  You also have to make instant decisions without the benefit of umpteen slow motion replays from all different angles.  *Most refs do an honest job to the best of their ability, so please give them a break!*

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Buy this man a beer. :cheers:
The sound of sensibility at last ..................... I reckon all the naysayers should officiate a game or two. That'll wake them up!

*Slime*.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 30, 2013)

delc said:



			I had a go at refereeing when I gave up football. With the amount of cheating and simulation (diving to you) that goes on, it is definitely not as easy as it looks on TV.  You also have to make instant decisions without the benefit of umpteen slow motion replays from all different angles.  Most refs do an honest job to the best of their ability, so please give them a break!
		
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Couldn't agree more


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

delc said:



			I had a go at refereeing when I gave up football. With the amount of cheating and simulation (diving to you) that goes on, it is definitely not as easy as it looks on TV.  You also have to make instant decisions without the benefit of umpteen slow motion replays from all different angles.  Most refs do an honest job to the best of their ability, so please give them a break!
		
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The refs in the Prem also get paid very handsomely to do the basics of their job - managers have been sacked on the back of poor decisions in the past , teams lose out on points , possible trophies and a lot of money. Yes they are human and make mistakes but the mistakes are becoming very frequent now to the point it is happening every week - if they can't do the basics and handle the prEssure then they shouldn't do the job

P.s. I'm a fully qualified hockey umpire to national league level both indoor and outdoor 

I'm monitored constantly and suffer repurcussions if I make mistakes


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 30, 2013)

Should we be blaming the Refs or should we be blaming the FA/FIFA for not bringing in technology to help the refs. At least it gives Liverpool an excuse for  slipping down the table.


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The refs in the Prem also get paid very handsomely to do the basics of their job - managers have been sacked on the back of poor decisions in the past* , teams lose out on points , possible trophies and a lot of money. Yes they are human and make mistakes but the mistakes are becoming very frequent now to the point it is happening every week - if they can't do the basics and handle the prEssure then they shouldn't do the job

P.s. I'm a fully qualified hockey umpire to national league level both indoor and outdoor 

I'm monitored constantly and suffer repurcussions if I make mistakes
		
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The top referees get paid a tiny fraction of the wage that a top footballer gets, yet when the footballer makes mistakes, (costing his club points and maybe his manager a job), it's put down to loss of form or an unfortunate error whereas when a referee makes AN HONEST mistake he gets publicly castigated and humiliated ............. double standards shown there by all fans and managers alike.


*Slime*.


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			Should we be blaming the Refs or should we be blaming the FA/FIFA for not bringing in technology to help the refs. At least it gives Liverpool an excuse for  slipping down the table.
		
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How about 
1. Blaming the players for cheating
2. Blaming the managers for encouraging the cheating
3. Blame the FA for not introducing *massive* suspensions for players caught cheating
4. Blame everyone else except the refs. They're on an absolute hiding to nothing so long as the first three points stay the same!


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

If players make mistakes then they possibly get dropped 

If managers make mistakes then get sacked 

Refs need to be more accountable for their mistakes - these mistake cost a lot of money or possible success to clubs

They may not get paid as much as footballers but they are still very well paid


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## MadAdey (Dec 30, 2013)

delc said:



			I had a go at refereeing when I gave up football. With the amount of cheating and simulation (diving to you) that goes on, it is definitely not as easy as it looks on TV.  You also have to make instant decisions without the benefit of umpteen slow motion replays from all different angles.  Most refs do an honest job to the best of their ability, so please give them a break!
		
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I do not think anyone is questioning the integrity of the refs, but at times they make a total balls up of things. The Eto'o tackle is a great example. If that was Joey Barton making that tackle 30 mins into a game, he would have walked, no doubt about it. When a ref has a great view like Webb did of an incident he has no excuse. He gave the foul, so he saw the incident, yet did not act on it.

Regarding penalties, that is always a tough one. What may look a stone waller on multiple TV replays from different angles, may not have looked the same from the angle of the ref. When TV replay stone walkers are not given, probably 9/10 do not look like penalties from the view of the ref, from what I understand if the ref has any doubt then the book says he is not to give it. 

That then leads me into another thing that annoys me, assistant referees. If you are going to have that title then assist the ref. At times the ref does not have a good view of an incident, but the assistant will be looking straight at it and chooses not put his flag up. So the poor old ref is getting abuse for not giving a penalty, when it is the assistant ref that had the best view.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 30, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			I do not think anyone is questioning the integrity of the refs, but at times they make a total balls up of things. The Eto'o tackle is a great example. If that was Joey Barton making that tackle 30 mins into a game, he would have walked, no doubt about it. When a ref has a great view like Webb did of an incident he has no excuse. He gave the foul, so he saw the incident, yet did not act on it.

Regarding penalties, that is always a tough one. What may look a stone waller on multiple TV replays from different angles, may not have looked the same from the angle of the ref. When TV replay stone walkers are not given, probably 9/10 do not look like penalties from the view of the ref, from what I understand if the ref has any doubt then the book says he is not to give it. 

That then leads me into another thing that annoys me, assistant referees. If you are going to have that title then assist the ref. At times the ref does not have a good view of an incident, but the assistant will be looking straight at it and chooses not put his flag up. So the poor old ref is getting abuse for not giving a penalty, when it is the assistant ref that had the best view.
		
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Don't you first and second paragraphs somewhat contradict each other.  Eto'o's challenge does look bad from side on, I believe Atkinson's view was down the line which looks somewhat different.  And surely you are questioning his integrity by assuming he saw it perfectly; he saw a foul yes, but did he see the full extent of it?


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## Golfmmad (Dec 30, 2013)

SaintHacker said:



			So, two games ruined by shocking refereeing again today. Southampton utterly shafted by Mark Clattenburg (again), and Liverpool denied at least one absolute stonewall penalty by Howard Webb, who is apparently the top ref in the country. This is becoming a common theme every weekend now, and with so much money etc riding on each game, is it fair to have people so obviously not up to the job in charge? Is it time to bring in video refs in the stands? Extra officials as the have in UCL games? Or is there genuinely an agenda at the FA towards certain clubs?
		
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I've read all posts in this thread, but highlighted this because..........

The above could have been written 20-30 years ago - nothing changes, refs will always get decisions wrong. And I do hope nothing does change, it will only serve to spoil the game of Football.
I truly believe that the vast majority of refs do an outstanding job - when you consider how fast paced the game is and that they have to make split second decisions. As has already been mentioned - having the benefit of slow mo replays in the studio - oh, it's so easy isn't it?

So, as the saying goes, "it does even itself out over the season".


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## delc (Dec 30, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			I do not think anyone is questioning the integrity of the refs, but at times they make a total balls up of things. The Eto'o tackle is a great example. If that was Joey Barton making that tackle 30 mins into a game, he would have walked, no doubt about it. When a ref has a great view like Webb did of an incident he has no excuse. He gave the foul, so he saw the incident, yet did not act on it.

Regarding penalties, that is always a tough one. What may look a stone waller on multiple TV replays from different angles, may not have looked the same from the angle of the ref. When TV replay stone walkers are not given, probably 9/10 do not look like penalties from the view of the ref, from what I understand if the ref has any doubt then the book says he is not to give it. 

That then leads me into another thing that annoys me, assistant referees. If you are going to have that title then assist the ref. At times the ref does not have a good view of an incident, but the assistant will be looking straight at it and chooses not put his flag up. So the poor old ref is getting abuse for not giving a penalty, when it is the assistant ref that had the best view.
		
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The other issue you have to consider is intent. If a player tackles another player with the intent of causing injury, then that is basically a sending off offence. If it is a clumsy or mistimed attempt to win the ball then at worst it is a foul and maybe a yellow card. A referee close to the action is probably in a better position to judge this than an armchair TV viewer. Assistant referees are still basically linesmen, who signal to the referee that a ball has gone over the line, or a player is offside. However they are qualified referees who can spot foul play and bring this to the attention of the referee if he has missed it.


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## Kellfire (Dec 30, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			So, as the saying goes, "it does even itself out over the season".
		
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It doesn't though... 

http://www.debatabledecisions.com/previous-seasons


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2013)

A clumsy mistimed tackle with no intent can be just as dangerous. - look at the tackle against Aaron Ramsey ?

Still a red card


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## Golfmmad (Dec 30, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			It doesn't though... 

http://www.debatabledecisions.com/previous-seasons

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I follow what the link is portraying.

And find it strange that you didn't comment on the rest of my post.


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## Kellfire (Dec 30, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			I'm not sure I follow what the link is portraying.

And find it strange that you didn't comment on the rest of my post.
		
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The link shows what the league outcome would have been two years ago if the most obvious and talked about contentious decisions were rectified. I know it isn't an exact science but it most certainly doesn't even itself out.


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## Golfmmad (Dec 30, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			The link shows what the league outcome would have been two years ago if the most obvious and talked about contentious decisions were rectified. I know it isn't an exact science but it most certainly doesn't even itself out.
		
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It's far from an exact science when the so called "contentious decisions" are derived from tv replays, and not in actual time that all referees have to deal with.


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## Imurg (Dec 30, 2013)

All of you who moan about refs need to remember...
A. Contrary to popular belief, they are Human.
B. As a result of A they will make mistakes
C. If they weren't there you wouldn't have a game to moan about.

It is only Football after all.........


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2013)

All of you who moan about refs need to remember...
A. Contrary to popular belief, they are Human.   *blind but human!*
B. As a result of A they will make mistakes.        *and they certainly do*
C. If they weren't there you wouldn't have a game to moan about. *what they get paid someone would do the job*

It is only Football after all......... *not when Crystal Palace play it's not!*


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## delc (Dec 30, 2013)

I wish that footballers would respect referees as they seem to do in Rugby. He is there to enforce the rules of the game and to protect the players from injury. Without a ref there is no game. By the way I gave up refereeing because I got sick of being sworn at, and on one occasion even spat at. I decided that there were better ways of spending my time.


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## bluewolf (Dec 30, 2013)

Reading posts by fans of "Big" Clubs moaning about refereeing decisions is priceless...

Try supporting one of the small clubs and see if things even out over the course of a season....

PS. I think that most refs do a great job considering the speed of the game and the ingenuity of certain players who are well accustomed to manipulating decisions. I blame the players...:angry:


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2013)

delc said:



			I wish that footballers would respect referees as they seem to do in Rugby. He is there to enforce the rules of the game and to protect the players from injury. Without a ref there is no game. By the way I gave up refereeing because I got sick of being sworn at, and on one occasion even spat at. I decided that there were better ways of spending my time.
		
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Local leagues often run without proper refs and the games get played. I wouldn't get out of bed to be sworn at by some oiks on a Sunday morning but refs should all agree to send off players when they deserve it but there is so much inconsistency in refereeing that it'll never happen

In Premier league football, I never understand why the FA don't approach lower division players and train them and pay them well to referee, it's worked well in cricket with umpires, a good player will usually spot the bad tackle etc more than someone who's never played the game


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## delc (Dec 30, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Local leagues often run without proper refs and the games get played. I wouldn't get out of bed to be sworn at by some oiks on a Sunday morning but refs should all agree to send off players when they deserve it but there is so much inconsistency in refereeing that it'll never happen

In Premier league football, I never understand why the FA don't approach lower division players and train them and pay them well to referee, it's worked well in cricket with umpires, a good player will usually spot the bad tackle etc more than someone who's never played the game
		
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I think you will find that most referees have played football at some level, and often take it up after injuries have stopped them playing.


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## MadAdey (Dec 30, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			The link shows what the league outcome would have been two years ago if the most obvious and talked about contentious decisions were rectified. I know it isn't an exact science but it most certainly doesn't even itself out.
		
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I see the point things like this make, but I don't think it has any real substance to it. 

For example team A has an offside decision early on go against them and get denied a goal. The game gets played out and team A eventually gets a goal in the dying minutes to grab a 1-0 win. But what might have happened if they had been given the goal? Would the early goal have kicked team B up the arse and made them go on to a 2-1 win? Decisions early on have a bigger effect on the overall outcome than ones later on, as I feel an incident early in a game can be come back from. 

I do think that decisions will even the self out over the year on paper, but not in reality. Take a team on a loosing streak, a decision going their way could get the win that helps get them out of it. That could lead to them getting some confidence and winning a few games, something that may not have happened if not for that decision.


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## MadAdey (Dec 30, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Don't you first and second paragraphs somewhat contradict each other.  Eto'o's challenge does look bad from side on, I believe Atkinson's view was down the line which looks somewhat different.  And surely you are questioning his integrity by assuming he saw it perfectly; he saw a foul yes, but did he see the full extent of it?
		
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what does atkinson have to do with it? I thought Webb had refereed it. Watch the replay and you can see how good the refs view was. For the ref to give a free kick, he must have seen a foul being committed. The foul being a set a studs going knee high at Henderson, if he does not see that then how does he give a foul?


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## MadAdey (Dec 30, 2013)

delc said:



			The other issue you have to consider is intent. If a player tackles another player with the intent of causing injury, then that is basically a sending off offence. If it is a clumsy or mistimed attempt to win the ball then at worst it is a foul and maybe a yellow card. A referee close to the action is probably in a better position to judge this than an armchair TV viewer. Assistant referees are still basically linesmen, who signal to the referee that a ball has gone over the line, or a player is offside. However they are qualified referees who can spot foul play and bring this to the attention of the referee if he has missed it.
		
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For me all this talk of intent is a joke. How does a ref know if there was any intent, is he a mind reader? A reckless challenge is a reckless challenge and going for the ball with your studs showing at knee height is reckless. I do not think that players ever make a reckless challenge with intent to injure, well not very often anyway, but they still have to sent off for challenges like that.

FIFA define fouls in 3 ways. Careless, Reckless and Excessive Force. If you read them there is no talk of intent, that is just a pundit rule that they like to make up.


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## delc (Dec 31, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			For me all this talk of intent is a joke. How does a ref know if there was any intent, is he a mind reader? A reckless challenge is a reckless challenge and going for the ball with your studs showing at knee height is reckless. I do not think that players ever make a reckless challenge with intent to injure, well not very often anyway, but they still have to sent off for challenges like that.
		
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You can usually tell by a player's eyes and body language if he is losing his temper or getting frustrated. You may remember David Beckham being sent off in a World Cup match for taking a fairly innocuous kick at a player who had just brought him down. It was totally unnecessary, as the ref had already given the foul, and probably deserved a sending off. In terms of reckless challenges, all players know that they should be in control and not show their studs. If they have no chance of winning the ball, they should stay on their feet and try and do something useful instead. The other thing I find annoying is all the shirt pulling and holding that goes on in the penalty area when a free kick or corner kick is being taken. Problem from a ref's point of view is that it is often six of one and half a dozen of the other, so who do you penalize?


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 31, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			what does atkinson have to do with it? I thought Webb had refereed it. Watch the replay and you can see how good the refs view was. For the ref to give a free kick, he must have seen a foul being committed. The foul being a set a studs going knee high at Henderson, if he does not see that then how does he give a foul?
		
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My mistake with Atkinson, it was Webb but the point remains the same; the view he had might be good, but was it the best angle to see what actually happened?  He's seen a foul but did he see the full extent of the foul and balls up as you suggest, or see what appeared to be a lesser foul and gave the decision accordingly.



MadAdey said:



			For me all this talk of intent is a joke. How does a ref know if there was any intent, is he a mind reader?
		
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No he isn't but you apparently are; you KNOW that Webb saw everything and chose not to do his job, rather than give him the benefit of the doubt that he might actually not have seen what you think he did.

Like this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2013)

How on earth did I miss that first time around? I got the 13 passes as well but I was obviously so fixated I missed the bear which walked through the middle!  Very good point made :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 31, 2013)

delc said:



			The other thing I find annoying is all the shirt pulling and holding that goes on in the penalty area when a free kick or corner kick is being taken. Problem from a ref's point of view is that it is often six of one and half a dozen of the other, so who do you penalize?
		
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Both of them of course.

Refs need to step up, a few double sending offs for this type of offense will soon tidy it up.


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Both of them of course.

Refs need to step up, a few double sending offs for this type of offense will soon tidy it up.
		
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But would it, the problem you will have immediately is some refs will and some refs won't, that is the main issue throughout, there is no consistency!

Skrtel would be off immediately, even Jamie Carragher states he concentrates on the man instead of the ball all the time, he was all over Kompany the other day and the ref did squat!

What happened to that new rule/law where if players befriended the ref he walked the original offence up 10yds like in Rugby, did that get removed or was it just trialled or has it just faded away as the refs show no consistency or grow some to use it?

Then you have idiots like Andy Gray and other pundits who will say, he hasn't sent him off luckily because it would ruin the game being so early! tough titty, if its a foul, its a foul, and the time of play should make no difference, deal with it!

Whilst we have all these inconsistencies it will stay the same, its what makes our game so great in some ways, its not sterile, the decisions will go with you sometimes and other days they won't, it makes the game more passionate, human and debatable.

Technology on the line, definitely, refs being more consistent, yes, but lets not sterilise the game to much.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2013)

delc said:



			Y

The other thing I find annoying is all the shirt pulling and holding that goes on in the penalty area when a free kick or corner kick is being taken. Problem from a ref's point of view is that it is often six of one and half a dozen of the other, so who do you penalize?
		
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Not true I'm afraid. 

I know a referee who met with a Premier League ref and he was told that the league had instructed the PL refs to go easy on the awarding off penalties for this problem. The rationale was that, whilst everyone got annoyed when the refs didn't give their side a penalty, the league said that research showed that fans didn't want to see loads of penalties in games. So the fact is that they do see shirt pulling, holding etc just as much as us but don't give free kicks as they are instructed not to. 

My source on this is pretty impeccable


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

delc said:



			I think you will find that most referees have played football at some level, and often take it up after injuries have stopped them playing.
		
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If by "some level" you mean in the garden vs their younger sister then I agree.

One of the problems refs have is that, because they haven't really played, they have little idea as to what to look for when things get a little bit naughty. Not their fault either, it takes too long to progress to even a half decent level of reffing. As Chris said, who wants to ref on a Sunday morning up to your ankles in mud whilst a fat plumber swears and threatens you all morning.

The Mike Riley (with Premier League financial backing) should be sniffing around The Conference for lads who have not quite made it but, @ 25ish, have 100+ games under their belts at a good standard. Sign them up to be refs, working full time with existing elite refs.
All those Conference games should then be run by these "apprentice refs" who are full time refs learning their trade before becoming the prem refs of 2morow.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 31, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Not true I'm afraid. 

I know a referee who met with a Premier League ref and he was told that the league had instructed the PL refs to go easy on the awarding off penalties for this problem. The rationale was that, whilst everyone got annoyed when the refs didn't give their side a penalty, the league said that research showed that fans didn't want to see loads of penalties in games. So the fact is that they do see shirt pulling, holding etc just as much as us but don't give free kicks as they are instructed not to. 

My source on this is pretty impeccable
		
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My view is that the entire game needs cleaning up

1.Refs need to be made supreme, any argument is penalized by distance or card
2.All this holding of players in the penalty box from set pieces needs to be stamped on, by penalty or card or both
3. Cheating by diving is a red card
4 Technology needs to be introduced for fairness to both sides as in rugby or cricket, it wont stop the flow

Once these happen and the game is played in the proper spirit, the refs job will be much easier, as many of the problems are caused by cheating players trying to get an advantage. 

In my dreams I expect


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## bladeplayer (Dec 31, 2013)

we can blame refs all we like but lets be honest if the players played the game more honestly and fairly then the refs wouldnt be conned as much into making wrong decisions ,,
There has to be a panel of ex refs and players put together to act on cheating retrospectivley [sp].. the panel could decide if the player cheated or not or if he just enhanced the contact , 

couple of options then would be have a points system or card system leading to a ban for the players . with the club being deducted points if they accumulate too many ..

It has to be shown at all levels that its cheating and it will cost you if you are caught ,they stop it in the elite level it will eventually feed down to the youngsters ..


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			If by "some level" you mean in the garden vs their younger sister then I agree.

One of the problems refs have is that, because they haven't really played, they have little idea as to what to look for when things get a little bit naughty. Not their fault either, it takes too long to progress to even a half decent level of reffing. As Chris said, who wants to ref on a Sunday morning up to your ankles in mud whilst a fat plumber swears and threatens you all morning.

The Mike Riley (with Premier League financial backing) should be sniffing around The Conference for lads who have not quite made it but, @ 25ish, have 100+ games under their belts at a good standard. Sign them up to be refs, working full time with existing elite refs.
All those Conference games should then be run by these "apprentice refs" who are full time refs learning their trade before becoming the prem refs of 2morow.
		
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Glad you agree Rob!

I refereed a few older kids games a number of years ago and whilst I was iffy on some of the rules I didn't miss any bad tackles, pushes etc that anyone, like you who played at a better level than me, would also spot in an instance. To get to the top in refereeing you do, these days, need to start pretty young and that precludes refs from playing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2013)

Got to be hard to prove intent to cheat though 

UEFA tried to ban Eduardo for diving - he said he slipped and then UEFA couldn't prove he meant to dive 

Lots of loopholes that any decent lawyer would be able to find ways round 

The appeal system and retrospective action on yellow cards and tackles need sorted though 

The game should be watched and any tackles missed should be punished - and any incorrect yellow cards taken away or upgraded 

Players are responsible for their mistakes and so should refs - Mike Riley was spineless as a ref and continues that way as their chief - they all hide behind him. Make them more responsible and they possibly will get a lot more right than wrong


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 31, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			we can blame refs all we like but lets be honest if the players *played the game* more honestly and fairly then the refs wouldnt be conned as much into making wrong decisions ,,
There has to be a panel of ex refs and players put together to act on cheating retrospectivley [sp].. the panel could decide if the player cheated or not or if he just enhanced the contact , 

couple of options then would be have a points system or card system leading to a ban for the players . with the club being deducted points if they accumulate too many ..

It has to be shown at all levels that its cheating and it will cost you if you are caught ,they stop it in the elite level it will eventually feed down to the youngsters ..
		
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Maybe part of the problem is that football has long since ceased to be a game at the top level.  It is a multi-million pound business, and I'm sure that has some bearing on the win-at-all-costs mentality which I think has some bearing on the player's actions.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe part of the problem is that football has long since ceased to be a game at the top level.  It is a multi-million pound business, and I'm sure that has some bearing on the win-at-all-costs mentality which I think has some bearing on the player's actions.
		
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The big money win at all costs idea is a complete red herring made up by those that have no idea about the game.

These guys want to win - end of. If it was in your back garden vs you and your wife, in the neighbours league 4th division, they would want to win and would do what is necessary to do so.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			My view is that the entire game needs cleaning up

1.Refs need to be made supreme, any argument is penalized by distance or card
2.All this holding of players in the penalty box from set pieces needs to be stamped on, by penalty or card or both
3. Cheating by diving is a red card
4 Technology needs to be introduced for fairness to both sides as in rugby or cricket, it wont stop the flow

Once these happen and the game is played in the proper spirit, the refs job will be much easier, as many of the problems are caused by cheating players trying to get an advantage. 

In my dreams I expect
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			Got to be hard to prove intent to cheat though 

UEFA tried to ban Eduardo for diving - he said he slipped and then UEFA couldn't prove he meant to dive 

Lots of loopholes that any decent lawyer would be able to find ways round 

The appeal system and retrospective action on yellow cards and tackles need sorted though 

The game should be watched and any tackles missed should be punished - and any incorrect yellow cards taken away or upgraded 

Players are responsible for their mistakes and so should refs - Mike Riley was spineless as a ref and continues that way as their chief - they all hide behind him. Make them more responsible and they possibly will get a lot more right than wrong
		
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No, no, no, no.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2013)

Which part and why?


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			The big money win at all costs idea is a complete red herring made up by those that have no idea about the game.

These guys want to win - end of. If it was in your back garden vs you and your wife, in the neighbours league 4th division, they would want to win and would do what is necessary to do so.
		
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I'm sorry but I don't agree.  The world's best golfers also desperately want to win, but by and large would NEVER resort to cheating to win.  Cheating seems to be an accepted part of Football but I'm not sure why it is or why that couldn't change.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			I'm sorry but I don't agree.  The world's best golfers also desperately want to win, but by and large would NEVER resort to cheating to win.  Cheating seems to be an accepted part of Football but I'm not sure why it is or why that couldn't change.
		
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Like comparing apples and oranges. 

Football is a fast reactive sport with contact. 

In any case, the players don't make the decisions, they merely ask the referee to decide. No different to Seve asking for a drop when he knows he's not entitled to one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2013)

Is cheating really "accepted" though in football ?


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## Slime (Dec 31, 2013)

delc said:



*I wish that footballers would respect referees as they seem to do in Rugby. He is there to enforce the rules of the game and to protect the players from injury.* Without a ref there is no game. By the way I gave up refereeing because I got sick of being sworn at, and on one occasion even spat at. I decided that there were better ways of spending my time.
		
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Eye gouging, spear tackling, hand bagging, stamping, raking, punching, biting .................. all still available to the rugby union spectator.
I don't see much evidence of that in football except for the occasional stamp and even rarer bite!
It's not so much about respecting the referee, (although this certainly could be improved), as it is about respecting the rules of the game.


*Slime*.


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Like comparing apples and oranges. 

Football is a fast reactive sport with contact. 

In any case, the players don't make the decisions, they merely ask the referee to decide. No different to Seve asking for a drop when he knows he's not entitled to one.
		
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Pro golfers penalise themselves all the time even if it means they lose as a result.  Footballers would never do that.


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Pro golfers penalise themselves all the time even if it means they lose as a result.  Footballers would never do that.
		
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Never say never, I saw a certain Liverpool player go down in the box and instantly waved at the ref that it wasn't a penalty, a rare treat but a treat all the same.


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Fish said:



			Never say never, I saw a certain Liverpool player go down in the box and instantly waved at the ref that it wasn't a penalty, a rare treat but a treat all the same.
		
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Was more than likely to avoid a yellow for a poor dive...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2013)

Di Canio catching the ball to get the keeper treatment when he had an open goal


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Pro golfers penalise themselves all the time even if it means they lose as a result.  Footballers would never do that.
		
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**Cough**

Simon Dyson


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Was more than likely to avoid a yellow for a poor dive...
		
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Actually it wasn't - Fowler jumped over an on rushing Seaman and Seaman caught his legs - Fowler got up and gestured it wasn't a pen but ref gave him - Fowler then missed the pen

It was an act of sportsmanship rarely seen in the sport


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			**Cough**

Simon Dyson
		
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Doesn't change the fact that almost all pro golfers desperately want to win but behave honestly where as many pro footballers who also desperately want to win do not behave honestly.   Cheating in football is the norm.


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually it wasn't - Fowler jumped over an on rushing Seaman and Seaman caught his legs - Fowler got up and gestured it wasn't a pen but ref gave him - Fowler then missed the pen

It was an act of sportsmanship rarely seen in the sport
		
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Fowler dived, there was no contact. He then tried to score the pen, Seaman saved but Liverpool scored the rebound. Not exactly a Nobel prize for Sportmanship nominee.

http://youtu.be/8mofSgbY8JE


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## Slime (Dec 31, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually it wasn't - Fowler jumped over an on rushing Seaman and Seaman caught his legs - Fowler got up and gestured it wasn't a pen but ref gave him - Fowler then missed the pen

It was an act of sportsmanship rarely seen in the sport
		
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Which brings me back to an earlier point ..................... interpretation.
The interpretation of that incident is by no means universally agreed upon.
Many think he dived, and badly too as contact is arguable, and realising he'd be found out he waved his hands around feigning honesty. Most people also think that he missed the penalty deliberately, but it was just a bad penalty, and yet some people still think he deliberately missed it.
It's all about interpretation, myopia and rose tinted glasses. 
Only Fowler really knows ................... and all non Liverpool supporters .


*Slime*.


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Doesn't change the fact that almost all pro golfers desperately want to win but behave honestly where as many pro footballers who also desperately want to win do not behave honestly.   Cheating in football is the norm.
		
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Is there a difference between cheating and deceiving? 

When a keeper comes rushing out diving low at the ball, and in that split second, so hardly premeditated which is the act of a cheat, the oncoming player _chooses_ to keep his feet low allowing the keeper to make contact before or after the ball has gone and wins a penalty rather than lifting his feet and jumping over the keeper which he had the _possibility_ of doing? Is that cheating? Is it deception? Is it just tough on the keeper and team being able to manipulate the situation in that split second to your advantage, rightly or wrongly?


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Doesn't change the fact that almost all pro golfers desperately want to win but behave honestly where as many pro footballers who also desperately want to win do not behave honestly.   Cheating in football is the norm.
		
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The original point was that it was due to the big money - it's not, these guys just want to win and will push things as far as they can.


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			The original point was that it was due to the big money - it's not, these guys just want to win and will push things as far as they can.
		
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I agree as far as big money is concerned. After all you have kids and guys my age diving about public parks every Saturday morning.


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Fish said:



			Is there a difference between cheating and deceiving? 

When a keeper comes rushing out diving low at the ball, and in that split second, so hardly premeditated which is the act of a cheat, the oncoming player _chooses_ to keep his feet low allowing the keeper to make contact before or after the ball has gone and wins a penalty rather than lifting his feet and jumping over the keeper which he had the _possibility_ of doing? Is that cheating? Is it deception? Is it just tough on the keeper and team being able to manipulate the situation in that split second to your advantage, rightly or wrongly?
		
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When you decide to dive at every opportunity that presents itself during the upcoming fixture in the dressing room before the game begins, you are a cheat.


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			When you decide to dive at every opportunity that presents itself during the upcoming fixture in the dressing room before the game begins, you are a cheat.
		
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So had Fowler buried his feet into Seamans arms or chest after he touched the ball to the side and didn't go over him doing a hitch kick which a lot of players now do in mid-air, would that have been a justified penalty, most pundits seem to think so even though the player could have leaped over the keeper?


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			When you decide to dive at every opportunity that presents itself during the upcoming fixture in the dressing room before the game begins, you are a cheat.
		
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That's just not the case


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## Fish (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			When you decide to dive at every opportunity that presents itself during the upcoming fixture in the dressing room before the game begins, you are a cheat.
		
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I'm not sure how you can quantify or justify that statement or knowingly know that players think that way.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 31, 2013)

Said it before...

I am sure when I was a lad you got awarded a penalty nowadays you 'win' a penalty...


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Fish said:



			So had Fowler buried his feet into Seamans arms or chest after he touched the ball to the side and didn't go over him doing a hitch kick which a lot of players now do in mid-air, would that have been a justified penalty, most pundits seem to think so even though the player could have leaped over the keeper?[/]

If he was brought down in the box it should be a penalty.  He was not, he dived.
		
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## Fish (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			If he was brought down in the box it would have been a penalty.  He was not, he dived.
		
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Your avoiding the question, I said, HAD Fowler or any player as per my previous example, buried their feet into the keeper when they had/have the opportunity to leap over, is that a penalty or not, the keeper technically hasn't brought the player down, the player has kept his feet low to allow himself to fall into the oncoming keeper, is that cheating, deceiving or taking advantage?


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## ger147 (Dec 31, 2013)

Fish said:



			Your avoiding the question, I said, HAD Fowler or any player as per my previous example, buried their feet into the keeper when they had/have the opportunity to leap over, is that a penalty or not, the keeper technically hasn't brought the player down, the player has kept his feet low to allow himself to fall into the oncoming keeper, is that cheating, deceiving or taking advantage?
		
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If you are brought down it's a penalty, if you dive it's not. If you don't think that's an answer that's your problem, not mines.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			If you are brought down it's a penalty, if you dive it's not. If you don't think that's an answer that's your problem, not mines.
		
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If that's what you think, it's a good job you aren't a ref!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Fowler dived, there was no contact. He then tried to score the pen, Seaman saved but Liverpool scored the rebound. Not exactly a Nobel prize for Sportmanship nominee.

http://youtu.be/8mofSgbY8JE

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He jumped over out of the way and then says no penalty - did he claim for a penalty - I do believe the answer is no 

But it obvious there is no point people in football attempting sportsmanship when even obvious attempts get questioned 

I do believe Wenger congratulated him , the Prem did by giving Him a sportsmanship award. Seaman also congratulated him - why is there a need to question anything ?


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 31, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Local leagues often run without proper refs and the games get played. I wouldn't get out of bed to be sworn at by some oiks on a Sunday morning but refs should all agree to send off players when they deserve it but there is so much inconsistency in refereeing that it'll never happen

In Premier league football, I never understand why the FA don't approach lower division players and train them and pay them well to referee, it's worked well in cricket with umpires, a good player will usually spot the bad tackle etc more than someone who's never played the game
		
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There have been such initiatives by the FA but surprise surprise players are not keen to take the offer up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2013)

ger147 said:





Fish said:



			So had Fowler buried his feet into Seamans arms or chest after he touched the ball to the side and didn't go over him doing a hitch kick which a lot of players now do in mid-air, would that have been a justified penalty, most pundits seem to think so even though the player could have leaped over the keeper?[/]

If he was brought down in the box it should be a penalty.  He was not, he dived.
		
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Actually he neither "dived" nor was brought down - there is more than just those two possibilities
		
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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			There have been such initiatives by the FA but surprise surprise players are not keen to take the offer up.
		
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It was a bit half arsed though and they targeted ageing players close to career end. By the time they were ready it would have been a five year career.
If you target guys released by pro clubs after a first contract. Fit young men, enticed by a definite career path to the Â£100k elite refs panel. The linos need to be on this too - they are an even weaker link in the current chain


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 31, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Glad you agree Rob!

I refereed a few older kids games a number of years ago and whilst I was iffy on some of the rules *I didn't miss any bad tackles, pushes etc that anyone, like you who played at a better level than me, would also spot in an instance.* To get to the top in refereeing you do, these days, need to start pretty young and that precludes refs from playing.
		
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How do you know,  did Shearer, Hanson, etc get to view the video.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

doublebogey7 said:



			How do you know,  did Shearer, Hanson, etc get to view the video.
		
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Steve Shearer and Dave Hanson both watched the game live and said Chris was impeccable

Although the 2nd half was hard to judge from the bar after 4 pints of Bishops Cripplecock.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2013)

Most non football fanatics seem to miss the basic point which is - the referee is the sole arbiter of the rules, no matter what the players say or do, bend the the rules or blatantly cheat. If the ref is good at his job  and his assistants are skilled they will make the right decisions and players won't benefit or lose out as a result. So, if I'm right, we just need the most skilled officials we can attract.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Most non football fanatics seem to miss the basic point which is - the referee is the sole arbiter of the rules, no matter what the players say or do, bend the the rules or blatantly cheat. If the ref is good at his job  and his assistants are skilled they will make the right decisions and players won't benefit or lose out as a result. So, if I'm right, we just need the most skilled officials we can attract.
		
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:thup:

I actually think that we have a pretty good bunch of elite panel refs - however they get next to zero help from the lino. The game should be ref'd by all three of them, especially as they are all miked up.

Of course, that may be down to the self appointed Hitler with the whistle, I've come across far too many who tell their linos just to flag for throw ins and offside, everything else is down to the ref.........and that's where another problem starts, reffing as though they are the entertainment rather than the players and the game.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			:thup:

I actually think that we have a pretty good bunch of elite panel refs - however they get next to zero help from the lino. The game should be ref'd by all three of them, especially as they are all miked up.

Of course, that may be down to the self appointed Hitler with the whistle, I've come across far too many who tell their linos just to flag for throw ins and offside, everything else is down to the ref.........and that's where another problem starts, reffing as though they are the entertainment rather than the players and the game.
		
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I couldn't agree more a Rob, but my major point was the criticism of players for cheating that get my goat. If both players claim a throw in for their team the ref will still ignore them and, with his assistant, give the throw to the team who's it is. If a player dives deliberately a good ref will caution him. It's not seen by football generally, as cheating, as similar situations in golf would be and that's because football has three people charged with upholding the rules - it isn't down to the players to do that, but If they don't they suffer the consequences of their actions.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I couldn't agree more a Rob, but my major point was the criticism of players for cheating that get my goat. If both players claim a throw in for their team the ref will still ignore them and, with his assistant, give the throw to the team who's it is. If a player dives deliberately a good ref will caution him. It's not seen by football generally, as cheating, as similar situations in golf would be and that's because football has three people charged with upholding the rules - it isn't down to the players to do that, but If they don't they suffer the consequences of their actions.
		
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No arguments from me Chris - for the purpose of this thread anyway, screaming at Refs was (sadly) a big part of my game!!


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			, screaming at Refs was (sadly) a big part of my game!!
		
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As all of us Rob!

An ex local ref during my playing days is now a barman  at my golf club and we often banter about the old days and he was certainly one of the better refs at that time. I was in the bar with a couple of ex footballers and he announced that the last game of mine he reff'd I was the worst player on the pitch and all I could say was "that would be too much of a coincidence" !

I remember one game with him where I berated him over a decision and he called me over for a rollicking and I said " look Peter, we both can't ref this game properly and I'm trying to play as well, any chance of you getting some decisions right it'd take the pressure off me helping you"

I only ever got booked once and the banter was dished out and taken in good spirit


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

I preferred the Kevin Nolan approach to discipline - ensured Xmas off from playing and the chance for a beer or twelve.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 31, 2013)

Robobum said:



			The big money win at all costs idea is a complete red herring made up by those that have no idea about the game.

These guys want to win - end of. If it was in your back garden vs you and your wife, in the neighbours league 4th division, they would want to win and would do what is necessary to do so.
		
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So it's pure coincidence that diving, cheating and general haranguing of the ref have increased since the advent of Sky TV and the big money, despite there being pretty much the same trophies available for these guys who only want to win now as there were before?  Obviously the blokes I was watching 35 years ago just didn't want to win as they didn't seem to indulge in the same behaviour.

I don't disagree that the players have a winning mentality and will try to gain every advantage, but if you don't think that a Â£10 million bonus for winning the Champions League or Â£15 million for winning the Premier League (and that's not including the TV money) have some bearing on the player's attitude, if not from themselves then handed down by club management or coaching staff, then I'm afraid you have as little idea as you accuse me of having.  There are other factors involved such as the change in society's attitudes to what is acceptable and money is not the sole driver, but I do not believe you can completely dismiss the influence money has had on the modern game.


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## Robobum (Dec 31, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			So it's pure coincidence that diving, cheating and general haranguing of the ref have increased since the advent of Sky TV and the big money, despite there being pretty much the same trophies available for these guys who only want to win now as there were before?  Obviously the blokes I was watching 35 years ago just didn't want to win as they didn't seem to indulge in the same behaviour.

I don't disagree that the players have a winning mentality and will try to gain every advantage, but if you don't think that a Â£10 million bonus for winning the Champions League or Â£15 million for winning the Premier League (and that's not including the TV money) have some bearing on the player's attitude, if not from themselves then handed down by club management or coaching staff, then I'm afraid you have as little idea as you accuse me of having.  There are other factors involved such as the change in society's attitudes to what is acceptable and money is not the sole driver, but I do not believe you can completely dismiss the influence money has had on the modern game.
		
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Ok, so lets say a club wins both - Â£25m prize money. How much of that will reach the players? Lets be generous and say 50%...

Â£12.5m between 25 players. Add in some big player weighting and lets say his bonus is Â£1m.....

Â£1m for a player that already earns Â£5-6m a year on a long contract which is worth Â£30m+.

Money is no driver for the top players. It's a consequence.

Money becomes a driver the lower you go, hence the susceptibility to match fixing as we have seen recently.


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## Beezerk (Dec 31, 2013)

I love refs me.


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## bladeplayer (Dec 31, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe part of the problem is that football has long since ceased to be a game at the top level.  It is a multi-million pound business, and I'm sure that has some bearing on the win-at-all-costs mentality which I think has some bearing on the player's actions.
		
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Very valid point mate so a way has got to be devised that constant cheating effects the business .. points deductions seems the only way to effect this so .. fines are so small they dont matter


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