# WHS and Winter Issues (e.g. Temp Greens)



## Swango1980 (Oct 2, 2020)

Under CONGU, qualifiers can be played throughout the winter period, but competition must be made a Non Qualifier if more than 2 temporary greens are in place.

Under WHS, 3.2 states that if a hole is not played, such as being out for maintenance, then as long as 10 holes have been played your score can be counted. So, if 3 holes were out for maintenance, you would simply give yourself Nett Par on those 3 holes (also marking on card the hole was not started), and it can be used as handicap.

However, what if 3 holes were on temporary greens. Does your 18 hole score count? Does your score for the 15 holes count, and then for handicapping you give yourself nett par on those 3 holes regardless. Or, is it a Non Acceptable Score entirely?

I've missed the section on Temporary Greens in the Manual


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## SammmeBee (Oct 2, 2020)

Surely you play the hole as they are and score as they are in the competition and then whoever does the cards needs to worry about the WHS ins and outs.......?!!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 2, 2020)

SammmeBee said:



			Surely you play the hole as they are and score as they are in the competition and then whoever does the cards needs to worry about the WHS ins and outs.......?!!
		
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I'm handicap secretary, so I'm the one that needs to worry 

The player also need to worry about clearly marking the card when holes are not started for example, under the WHS guidelines. But, I'm more specifically interested in winter greens, as it is a common theme over winter at my course, and I'm unsure if the WHS guidance reflects Congu guidance (maybe it does and I've simply overlooked it)


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## SammmeBee (Oct 2, 2020)

In 40 years of golf.....I’ve never not started a hole......


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## Swango1980 (Oct 2, 2020)

SammmeBee said:



			In 40 years of golf.....I’ve never not started a hole......
		
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You wouldn't start a hole if it was out for maintenance 

I was just thinking that, under WHS you could still have an Acceptable (Qualifying) Score if you only played 15 holes and 3 were out for maintenance. Yet, under CONGU, it would be NON qualifying score if you played 18 holes, but 3 were on temporary greens.

So, trying to figure out if the temporary green condition is still in place for a WHS Acceptable Score


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## SammmeBee (Oct 2, 2020)

You wouldn’t play a competition if a hole was out for maintenance......tees may be moved yes but not just not play it?!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 2, 2020)

SammmeBee said:



			You wouldn’t play a competition if a hole was out for maintenance......tees may be moved yes but not just not play it?!
		
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Why wouldn't you? So, if you had one hole out for maintenance for several months, you'd simply stop all competitions  at your course?


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## SammmeBee (Oct 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Why wouldn't you? So, if you had one hole out for maintenance for several months, you'd simply stop all competitions  at your course?
		
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You’d have to would you as it wouldn’t be a measured course......or make temporary provision for an alternative solution (ie extra hole)....

Generally competitions are at weekends so you can play around the work.....no sensible course digs up a whole hole in one go!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 2, 2020)

SammmeBee said:



			You’d have to would you as it wouldn’t be a measured course......or make temporary provision for an alternative solution (ie extra hole)....

Generally competitions are at weekends so you can play around the work.....no sensible course digs up a whole hole in one go!
		
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Under WHS, it doesn't seem to matter. You could have 8 holes down for maintenance, and still have score count for handicap.


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## SammmeBee (Oct 2, 2020)

I think your reading it tooooooooo literally.  If that was the case for a course you’d be playing the other 9 holes twice.......


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## Swango1980 (Oct 2, 2020)

Bits from From WHS Manual:

"3.2 When a Hole is Not Played"

Example: "A hole being declared out of play by the Committee for maintenance or reconstruction purposes"

"A score may only be used for handicap purposes if, among other things, the round has been played over at least the minimum number of holes required"

For an 18 hole round, the minimum number of holes is 10. The table beneath the above tells you what to put down for the non played holes if at least 10 holes have been played, and if at least 14 holes have been played.


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## jim8flog (Oct 3, 2020)

Personally if a group of holes were out for an extended period of time I would seek advice from county.

You would have to go by 2.1a in the first place - rounds are either 9 holes or 18 holes


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## Swango1980 (Oct 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Personally if a group of holes were out for an extended period of time I would seek advice from county.

You would have to go by 2.1a in the first place - rounds are either 9 holes or 18 holes
		
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I'm not expecting any holes down for service at my place. But using that as an example given it seems to allow for this in WHS manual 

What is common though are temporary greens over winter. So, in a few months, if 3 to 8 holes are on temporary greens, are scores Acceptable for handicap?


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## jim8flog (Oct 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			What is common though are temporary greens over winter. So, in a few months, if 3 to 8 holes are on temporary greens, are scores Acceptable for handicap?
		
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You have your answer in your original post, very first line.
 No change to current system.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You have your answer in your original post, very first line.
No change to current system.
		
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Is that written anywhere?

And to clarify, if we had 3 winter greens, score not acceptable. If we had 3 holes completely out of action, scores are acceptable?


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## jim8flog (Oct 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Is that written anywhere?

And to clarify, if we had 3 winter greens, score not acceptable. If we had 3 holes completely out of action, scores are acceptable?
		
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Guidance on the WHS Rules

G2.1/3 Temporary Greens or Tees
2.1/3 empowers an Authorized Association to determine the circumstances under which temporary course conditions are acceptable for handicapping purposes.
In this context CONGU® directs that scores are acceptable for handicapping purposes if:
• No more than two temporary greens are in play for an 18-hole round; or
• Only one temporary green is in play for a 9-hole round.

Re your question about greens out of use I refer you to my answer in post #12


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## Swango1980 (Oct 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Guidance on the WHS Rules

G2.1/3 Temporary Greens or Tees
2.1/3 empowers an Authorized Association to determine the circumstances under which temporary course conditions are acceptable for handicapping purposes.
In this context CONGU® directs that scores are acceptable for handicapping purposes if:
• No more than two temporary greens are in play for an 18-hole round; or
• Only one temporary green is in play for a 9-hole round.

Re your question about greens out of use I refer you to my answer in post #12
		
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Cheers, that solves that issue.

It does seem like Boris and his pals wrote the WHS guidelines though. My deputy in Seniors section asked about holes out for service, before he briefs Seniors next week. Given that WHS guidelines suggest that, as long as 10 holes played, nett par given to holes not played (well, but different depending on whether at least 10 or 14 holes played), then the round is Acceptable. Yet, if 3 or more holes on temp greens, they are not Acceptable.


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## jim8flog (Oct 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Cheers, that solves that issue.

It does seem like Boris and his pals wrote the WHS guidelines though. My deputy in Seniors section asked about holes out for service, before he briefs Seniors next week. Given that WHS guidelines suggest that, as long as 10 holes played, nett par given to holes not played (well, but different depending on whether at least 10 or 14 holes played), then the round is Acceptable. Yet, if 3 or more holes on temp greens, they are not Acceptable.
		
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I have taken the guidelines about number of holes played to be about player's attitudes to scoring on their cards (particularly low handicappers) and how they proceed rather than what a club does from the off.

 It is worth waiting to see what the software does to see if penalty scores etc are automatic.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I have taken the guidelines about number of holes played to be about player's attitudes to scoring on their cards (particularly low handicappers) and how they proceed rather than what a club does from the off.

It is worth waiting to see what the software does to see if penalty scores etc are automatic.
		
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Yes, will just need to await. I can see some players trying to test me in the future though regarding WHS 3.2.

For example, 2 players play a round for handicap. There are 3 winter greens. Player A plays all 18 holes, his score cannot count. However, Player B, aware of 3.2, decides not to start the 3 holes that are on winter greens, and demands his score should be Acceptable. Perhaps I need to determine whether this was a valid reason not to play those holes. Or, perhaps I insist it doesn't count as there were 3 temp greens, regardless if he played them or not.

Also, sadly are 2nd hole can be quite dangerous, as driving range balls land around your head. Could a player claim it was valid for them not to play that hole for safety reasons, but have their score count my giving them a nett par?


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## jim8flog (Oct 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, will just need to await. I can see some players trying to test me in the future though regarding WHS 3.2.

For example, 2 players play a round for handicap. There are 3 winter greens. Player A plays all 18 holes, his score cannot count. However, Player B, aware of 3.2, decides not to start the 3 holes that are on winter greens, and demands his score should be Acceptable. Perhaps I need to determine whether this was a valid reason not to play those holes. Or, perhaps I insist it doesn't count as there were 3 temp greens, regardless if he played them or not.

Also, sadly are 2nd hole can be quite dangerous, as driving range balls land around your head. Could a player claim it was valid for them not to play that hole for safety reasons, but have their score count my giving them a nett par?
		
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Not starting a hole to protect a handicap (up or down) is definitely not acceptable.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Not starting a hole to protect a handicap (up or down) is definitely not acceptable.
		
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Yeah, I appreciate that. But, I'd not consider any of the scenarios I mentioned as protecting one's handicap


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## jim8flog (Oct 3, 2020)

I personally would question the reason a player who did not play a hole deliberately.

Other info for help

1. Player Responsibilities. In order to comply with the requirements of the
Rules of Handicapping, a player is expected to:
(i) Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain
from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose
of gaining an unfair advantage.

(v) Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole.


R&A rules
Round
18 or fewer holes played in the order set by the Committee.

Handicapping

Note 2
If the offence has any possible premeditated element or, could have adversely affected the play of a fellow competitor, the score should normally be regarded as a ‘No Return’. (2.1b (3) of Rules Of Handicapping)


The following are situations where the player has been disqualified under the Rules of Golf or where a score has not been regarded as an acceptable score under 2.2a and 2.2b of the Rules of Handicapping:

20.2(e)
Disqualification penalty imposed by Committee 
Not acceptable


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