# Pre-shot Routine



## gazrow (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi all,

I've only recently started playing golf seriously and have noticed some of the guys I've played with have consistent swings and pre-shot routines.

My swing seems to lack the discipline that a pre-shot routine might bring, but I'm not really sure what makes an effective routine.

So my question is do you have one? And do you think it's effective?

Gareth


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## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2014)

I do, and my only advice is to keep it as simple as possible.. There's nothing worse than playing with someone who's PSR is like an amateur staging of Les Mis.... KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) - The best advice on anything, ever..:thup:


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## delc (Apr 1, 2014)

gazrow said:



			Hi all,

I've only recently started playing golf seriously and have noticed some of the guys I've played with have consistent swings and pre-shot routines.

My swing seems to lack the discipline that a pre-shot routine might bring, but I'm not really sure what makes an effective routine.

So my question is do you have one? And do you think it's effective?

Gareth
		
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I pick a spot a few feet ahead, over which I want the ball to travel, aim the clubface squarely at that spot and line myself up in relation to the clubface.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 1, 2014)

Kept is simple and short and just enjoy


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## NorfolkShaun (Apr 1, 2014)

I have a simple routine, it really does help ensure you are set up correctly.

One of the best pieces of advice I got given was to pick a target from behind the ball then set up to that and stick to it.


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## London mike 61 (Apr 1, 2014)

In my opinion a good pre shot routine should establish ;

1. A good ball position for the chosen club ( where the club makes contact with the ground put the ball there )

2. Direction ( aim ) of shot

3. Path of initial takeaway ( not outside nor too much inside the line )

4. Tempo 

So the list should read aim, ball position , path, tempo.

All the above should take no longer than a minute and can be applied to most shots including putting.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 1, 2014)

A minute for a pre shot routine ? It shouldn't take half of that.

That's possibly nearly an hour and half is some case on pre shot routine ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm just going to make one point on this thread and one point only.

Pre-shot routines DO NOT give you a consistent swing.

That is all.

EDIT: I was only going to make one point then I read London Mike's post...a minute? A whole minute for a pre-shot routine? No wonder golf is getting slower


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## London mike 61 (Apr 1, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A minute for a pre shot routine ? It shouldn't take half of that.

That's possibly nearly an hour and half is some case on pre shot routine ?
		
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Yeah, I know but when you start learning one it takes a little longer to get into a routine and after that it becomes second nature.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2014)

delc said:



			I pick a spot a few feet ahead, over which I want the ball to travel, aim the clubface squarely at that spot and line myself up in relation to the clubface.
		
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That seems seriously arse about face to me!

After a practice swing, or maybe 2, I line myself up according to the target and shape, place the club down making sure it's 'on line' then go for it.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2014)

London mike 61 said:



			All the above should take no longer than a minute and can be applied to most shots including putting.
		
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Er. 25 secs would be my thoughts on max. Maybe a smidgeon more for putts occasionally.


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## the_coach (Apr 1, 2014)

gazrow said:



			Hi all,

I've only recently started playing golf seriously and have noticed some of the guys I've played with have consistent swings and pre-shot routines.

My swing seems to lack the discipline that a pre-shot routine might bring, but I'm not really sure what makes an effective routine.

So my question is do you have one? And do you think it's effective?

Gareth
		
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Pre shot routine is essential which is why every good player tour pro or amateur has one, one that's the same every time it helps focus & stops negative thoughts creeping in.  
It occupies the mind with small positive things to do gives you a familiarity that helps you feel comfortable prior to the shot.

It's useful to use taking the club out of bag as the trigger to concentrate (once the club is in your hands just constantly be aware of the weight of the club head as you go through your routine it'll help your rhythm overall) it's the start of the routine.

Then from around 5 feet directly behind the ball pick a target, golf's a target game your brain needs a precise target to function best. Shouldn't be vague as in 'just hit it down the fairway, or hit it on the green' precise is better. While behind the ball you can make a rehearsal swing it you want.

Once you've picked it, with your target & ball, visualize the line between them, still from behind the ball pick a spot around a foot in front of the ball on that line. Better to have 3 points of reference for your aim line, then just visualize the ball going on that line.

Walk around & then at ball with feet close together place the club square to the line, then finalize your grip, then take your stance width.
 (if you go in & line up your feet first followed then the club face, doing it that way a right handed golfer will almost always be aimed too far to the right)

Then settle into your posture, (you can feel the ground from foot to foot as you stand there so you've not locked solid in your stance, if you freeze stock still it tends to make the first move away to jerky) take a look your spot in front of ball then target, do this by just swiveling your head, not raising your head that will get you out of posture.

One more look along your line. ball, spot in front, target then bring your eyes back to ball soon as your eyes back use that as a trigger for a smooth takeaway.

This sounds a lot, & long, but doing it, it isn't, need not take any longer than 20 seconds from taking the club out of the bag as routine start, to starting your takeaway and making your swing.

Get this down right & repeatable, you'll definitely play better. You can't concentrate for the whole 3 hours you'll get too tired, but twenty secs before each shot you can.


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## HawkeyeMS (Apr 2, 2014)

the_coach said:



*Pre shot routine is essential* which is why every good player tour pro or amateur has one, one that's the same every time it helps focus & stops negative thoughts creeping in.  
It occupies the mind with small positive things to do gives you a familiarity that helps you feel comfortable prior to the shot.

It's useful to use taking the club out of bag as the trigger to concentrate (once the club is in your hands just constantly be aware of the weight of the club head as you go through your routine it'll help your rhythm overall) it's the start of the routine.

Then from around 5 feet directly behind the ball pick a target, golf's a target game your brain needs a precise target to function best. Shouldn't be vague as in 'just hit it down the fairway, or hit it on the green' precise is better. While behind the ball you can make a rehearsal swing it you want.

Once you've picked it, with your target & ball, visualize the line between them, still from behind the ball pick a spot around a foot in front of the ball on that line. Better to have 3 points of reference for your aim line, then just visualize the ball going on that line.

Walk around & then at ball with feet close together place the club square to the line, then finalize your grip, then take your stance width.
 (if you go in & line up your feet first followed then the club face, doing it that way a right handed golfer will almost always be aimed too far to the right)

Then settle into your posture, (you can feel the ground from foot to foot as you stand there so you've not locked solid in your stance, if you freeze stock still it tends to make the first move away to jerky) take a look your spot in front of ball then target, do this by just swiveling your head, not raising your head that will get you out of posture.

One more look along your line. ball, spot in front, target then bring your eyes back to ball soon as your eyes back use that as a trigger for a smooth takeaway.

This sounds a lot, & long, but doing it, it isn't, need not take any longer than 20 seconds from taking the club out of the bag as routine start, to starting your takeaway and making your swing.

Get this down right & repeatable, you'll definitely play better. You can't concentrate for the whole 3 hours you'll get too tired, but twenty secs before each shot you can.
		
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No it isn't


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2014)

I have one. Well I say that I try to do the same thing over the ball but I'm also trying to play with more freedom these days and not let anything technical into the head so it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario for me at the moment.


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## Imurg (Apr 2, 2014)

London mike 61 said:



			Yeah, I know but when you start learning one it takes a little longer to get into a routine and after that it becomes second nature.
		
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If you're going to have a PSR learn it at the range - that way you can refine it to the point where it takes as little time as possible on the course.


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## MadAdey (Apr 2, 2014)

Nothing worse than a PSR that involves boring me to the point I lay down and take a sleep. Personally I find just having 1 swing to loosen up the arms and feel the club I have chosen works fine. I then stand behind the ball to check my shot choice, (at this point I might change club), but then it is move into the ball, turn the hip and let it rip.


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## MadAdey (Apr 2, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No it isn't
		
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NOt trying to be the devils advocate here, or trying to start a debate on the rights and wrongs of a PSR. I am just wondering what ouy do once you have arrived at your ball, before you take a shot.


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## MadAdey (Apr 2, 2014)

London mike 61 said:



			All the above should take no longer than a minute and can be applied to most shots including putting.
		
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Are you for real? If you are playing with a 4-ball of players going round in 85, then going on your minute timing you will spend a total of 5 hours 40 minutes on taking your shots. So taking into it that at times you will all be doing this at more or less the same time you can probably knock htat down to say 4 hours between a 4-ball. Now you add in looking for balls, walking between shots, walking to the next hole. I wonder where these 5 hour rounds are coming from.

IMO a PSR should take no longer than 20-30 seconds. My personal one takes no longer than 10-15 seconds, unless i have a change of mind and get a dofferent club out.


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## Region3 (Apr 2, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			No it isn't
		
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To have one like Keegan Bradley or Jason day isn't necessary, but some form of PSR is, IMO of course.

Do you always set up to the ball in the same way? If yes, then you have a routine.

If you don't set up to the ball the same way each time, you are making the job of aiming correctly more difficult than it needs to be.


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## CMAC (Apr 2, 2014)

copy a touring pro 

[video=youtube_share;hNG-63ivFqs]http://youtu.be/hNG-63ivFqs[/video]


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## One Planer (Apr 2, 2014)

CMAC said:



			copy a touring pro 

[video=youtube_share;hNG-63ivFqs]http://youtu.be/hNG-63ivFqs[/video]
		
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Thank god for that 

I thought you were going to say Loupe from the PGA tour!


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## cookelad (Apr 2, 2014)

CMAC said:



			copy a touring pro 

[video=youtube_share;hNG-63ivFqs]http://youtu.be/hNG-63ivFqs[/video]
		
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OMG that was painful!

To the OP, 

Your routine will develop over time (try to just watch Snedeker and stay away from Loupe, Na, All Effing Day and Bradley)


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2014)

Ok, I'm going to go slightly against type here and say that whilst I do agree with a PSR, I do think that the most important part is to make all your decisions when stood away from the ball, then when you address the ball, have one simple swing thought and commit fully to the shot you decided upon.... Most of my destructive shots come from when I'm still thinking about the shot to hit as I'm taking the clubhead away from the ball...
So, I guess it's still a PSR, just not a convoluted one involving too many moving parts..:thup:


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## Jack_bfc (Apr 2, 2014)

Im going to time myself now. I don't think its too long...

look down the line and pick point of ref.

Set up behind the ball.
step back
Practice swing.

Step in - quick look down the line then swing....

Then swear, hit the ground and do it all again about 100yards down the fairway


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## Snelly (Apr 2, 2014)

Pick a club, pick a spot in front of the ball in line with the target, take a stance relative to it then hit the ball. 

20 seconds max. 

This is what tour pros did 30 years ago and they were as good as the lads on tour now who seem to think you need five minutes preparation to hit a shot. You don't.

As for a minute of faffing to get ready to hit the ball - if that is true, I would have a word with you after a couple of holes and tell you it wasn't acceptable to make everyone else on the course wait that long.

One other point, if you do need a longer amount of time to get ready to play the shot then do so if you must but it should happen in advance of your turn to play as when it is your honour, you need to be at a point when you are ready to actually hit the ball.


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## patricks148 (Apr 2, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Pick a club, pick a spot in front of the ball in line with the target, take a stance relative to it then hit the ball. 

20 seconds max. 

This is what tour pros did 30 years ago and they were as good as the lads on tour now who seem to think you need five minutes preparation to hit a shot. You don't.

As for a minute of faffing to get ready to hit the ball - if that is true, I would have a word with you after a couple of holes and tell you it wasn't acceptable to make everyone else on the course wait that long.

One other point, if you do need a longer amount of time to get ready to play the shot then do so if you must but it should happen in advance of your turn to play as when it is your honour, you need to be at a point when you are ready to actually hit the ball.
		
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Yep, no need for more than that..

No wonder it takes some guys so long to get round if they bugger around for almost a min before they hit the ball


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Pick a club, pick a spot in front of the ball in line with the target, take a stance relative to it then hit the ball. 

20 seconds max. 

This is what tour pros did 30 years ago and they were as good as the lads on tour now who seem to think you need five minutes preparation to hit a shot. You don't.

As for a minute of faffing to get ready to hit the ball - if that is true, I would have a word with you after a couple of holes and tell you it wasn't acceptable to make everyone else on the course wait that long.

One other point, if you do need a longer amount of time to get ready to play the shot then do so if you must but it should happen in advance of your turn to play as when it is your honour, you need to be at a point when you are ready to actually hit the ball.
		
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Agreeing with you once again - good post :thup:


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## Jack_bfc (Apr 2, 2014)

cookelad said:



			OMG that was painful!

To the OP, 

Your routine will develop over time (try to just watch Snedeker and stay away from Loupe, Na, All Effing Day and Bradley)
		
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Just watching that and the seconds passing I reckon I am done and dusted in 20sec. 

What's with that air shot?????


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## 3565 (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm starting to realise Some seriously good golfers in this forum!!! ne:


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## North Mimms (Apr 2, 2014)

London mike 61 said:



			So the list should read aim, ball position , path, tempo.

All the above should take no longer than a minute and can be applied to most shots including putting.
		
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A pre shot routine should only take a minute if you are actually writing down everything that you are doing!


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## cookelad (Apr 2, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			Just watching that and the seconds passing I reckon I am done and dusted in 20sec. 

What's with that air shot?????
		
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At the time he was suffering major brain-driver failure and would pull out of his drives at the start of the downswing (so technically not an air shot) also part of the reason for the extended pre-shot routine, he's better now but can still drag it out a bit!


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## garyinderry (Apr 2, 2014)

standing over a ball going through some laborious PSR is only going to give more time for nagging doubts to surface. 

as mentioned, the best thing to do is do fully decide what shot you are going to play before you settle into the ball.  once that's done,


couple of praccy swooshes, get into position, adjust feet to make sure you are balanced,  then just hit it.


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## 3565 (Apr 2, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			standing over a ball going through some laborious PSR is only going to give more time for nagging doubts to surface. 

as mentioned, the best thing to do is do fully decide what shot you are going to play before you settle into the ball.  once that's done,


couple of praccy swooshes, get into position, adjust feet to make sure you are balanced,  then just hit it.
		
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that constitutes a PSR?????


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## Imurg (Apr 2, 2014)

3565 said:



			that constitutes a PSR????? 

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why shouldn't it...?


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Pick a club, pick a spot in front of the ball in line with the target, take a stance relative to it then hit the ball. 

20 seconds max. 

This is what tour pros did 30 years ago and they were as good as the lads on tour now who seem to think you need five minutes preparation to hit a shot. You don't.

...
		
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That's all most Tour Pros do now. Just a few that have 'problems'!

As for them being as good as now? Not really quantifiable because so many things have changed and (almost) all have changed, but I'm as certain as I can be that that is not the case. Most are now spending the time in the Gym that used to be spent in the Bar! But as it was a case of 'most' being there too, it was only the relative quality being measured, not overall quality. And is it really technology that is allowing the current crop to be hitting 6 or 5i (blades) from where miracle shots with 4W or 2i were previously hit?

And quite possibly the fact that a single dropped shot can cost twice as much as the Winner actually received 30 years ago - even allowing for inflation - might have something to do with it too!


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## HawkeyeMS (Apr 2, 2014)

Region3 said:



			To have one like Keegan Bradley or Jason day isn't necessary, but some form of PSR is, IMO of course.

Do you always set up to the ball in the same way? If yes, then you have a routine.

If you don't set up to the ball the same way each time, you are making the job of aiming correctly more difficult than it needs to be.
		
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I've said this before, there are things that you need to do before you hit a shot. Pick a club, pick a line, address the ball, hit it. This is not a PSR in my book, it is part of the process of hitting a ball. Anything beyond that is a PSR and isn't necessary.


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## HawkeyeMS (Apr 2, 2014)

3565 said:



			I'm starting to realise Some seriously good golfers in this forum!!! ne:
		
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Just golfers that realise that prancing around doing yoga before you hit the ball isn't going change the fact that you might hit a bad shot.


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## richy (Apr 2, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Just golfers that realise that prancing around doing yoga before you hit the ball isn't going change the fact that you might hit a bad shot.
		
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I think its more to do with reducing the number of bad shots rather than eradicating them all together.

Although I've never seen anyone "prance around" or "do yoga" before hitting a shot


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## garyinderry (Apr 2, 2014)

3565 said:



			that constitutes a PSR????? 

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its neither long or drawn out!  simple and effective.  its all that's needed really.     god knows what else is required!


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2014)

Wonder if this will be covered at The Grove? I assume they want you to be in the right mental place before you hit a shot and isn't a PSR designed to do that?


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## the_coach (Apr 2, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Wonder if this will be covered at The Grove? I assume they want you to be in the right mental place before you hit a shot and isn't a PSR designed to do that?
		
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:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2014)

All depends on what is judged as PSR.


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## 3565 (Apr 2, 2014)

Imurg said:



			why shouldn't it...?
		
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Got wires crossed, I'm saying that what he said is all part of the pre shot routine and more tbh. Anyone thinks that that doesn't are barking....


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## the_coach (Apr 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All depends on what is judged as PSR.
		
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In my book it's a routine you repeat, that's not drawn out or anguished so doesn't interfere with anyone else, that's preferably no longer than 20 secs, that allows in the proper time allowed under the rules of golf for you positively to focus/concentrate & assess the shot your about to make. 
That allows the familiar of a small routine for the golfer to be able to choose the right shot, correct aim, alignment etc. & put him/her in the right place physically, mentally to put the very best swing on that shot they can.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2014)

the_coach said:



			In my book it's a routine you repeat, that's not drawn out or anguished so doesn't interfere with anyone else, that's preferably no longer than 20 secs, that allows in the proper time allowed under the rules of golf for you positively to focus/concentrate & assess the shot your about to make. 
That allows the familiar of a small routine for the golfer to be able to choose the right shot, correct aim, alignment etc. & put him/her in the right place physically, mentally to put the very best swing on that shot they can.
		
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That all seems far to much thinking 

Find distance , pick club , aim and then hit - that will do me


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## 3565 (Apr 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That all seems far to much thinking 

Find distance , pick club , aim and then hit - that will do me
		
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I suppose that's all down to each individuals traits and personality really. Some players are methodical and some are like yourself, neither is right nor wrong. You do what you do that's best for your game.


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## the_coach (Apr 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That all seems far to much thinking 

Find distance , pick club , aim and then hit - that will do me
		
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Either will take a similar timeframe & they don't seem that different maybes after all, except maybe you could get to be more focussed on the positives of seeing the shot you want, it may even give you better results


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Either will take a similar timeframe & they don't seem that different maybes after all, except maybe you could get to be more focussed on the positives of seeing the shot you want, it may even give you better results 

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Sorry that's far too much thinking for me 

Seeing the shot ? What shot it is I'm not bothered - as long as it lands roughly in the area I want it too


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## Snelly (Apr 3, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Either will take a similar timeframe & they don't seem that different maybes after all, except maybe you could get to be more focussed on the positives of seeing the shot you want, it may even give you better results 

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Amateur golf is, primarily thanks to gobbledegook from sports shrinks, now absolutely full of players who have a detailed pre-shot routine that helps them "get in the right place mentally", "visualise the shot they want to hit" and "focus on the positives / right outcome etc".   

There is one thing that a high proportion of them have in common and that is that they can't play golf for toffee and have never broken 80.  

Cue more tripe on them being "the best that they can be" etc. etc.

If it works for you then fine, knock yourself out.  But be ready to hit the ball when it is your turn and don't preach to others that it is essential because it is not.

PS - not specifically addressing you @the_coach.  Just a general observation.


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## Piece (Apr 3, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Amateur golf is, primarily thanks to gobbledegook from sports shrinks, now absolutely full of players who have a detailed pre-shot routine that helps them "get in the right place mentally", "visualise the shot they want to hit" and "focus on the positives / right outcome etc".   

There is one thing that a high proportion of them have in common and that is that they can't play golf for toffee and have never broken 80.  

Cue more tripe on them being "the best that they can be" etc. etc.

If it works for you then fine, knock yourself out.  But be ready to hit the ball when it is your turn and don't preach to others that it is essential because it is not.

PS - not specifically addressing you @the_coach.  Just a general observation. 

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I agree with this. I'd recommend that new or struggling players concentrate on learning a PSR on the practice range and not on the course. Treating practice sensibly gives you a decent and hopefully quick PSR at the range, so that when it comes to playing, you automatically move into shot-mode without consciously thinking 50 thoughts and wasting time. Just my 2p's worth...


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## Scooby999 (Apr 3, 2014)

PSR :-
Park trolley, Check distance, Look at lie, asses wind etc(  simultaneous activity)
Choose Club
Two practice swings
Launch.

30 seconds tops!


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## the_coach (Apr 3, 2014)

Scooby999 said:



			PSR :-
Park trolley, Check distance, Look at lie, asses wind etc(  simultaneous activity)
Choose Club
Two practice swings
Launch.

30 seconds tops!
		
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May want to find a few secs, for aim in here maybes  :mmm:


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## the_coach (Apr 3, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Amateur golf is, primarily thanks to gobbledegook from sports shrinks, now absolutely full of players who have a detailed pre-shot routine that helps them "get in the right place mentally", "visualise the shot they want to hit" and "focus on the positives / right outcome etc".   

There is one thing that a high proportion of them have in common and that is that they can't play golf for toffee and have never broken 80.  

Cue more tripe on them being "the best that they can be" etc. etc.

If it works for you then fine, knock yourself out.  But be ready to hit the ball when it is your turn and don't preach to others that it is essential because it is not.

PS - not specifically addressing you @the_coach.  Just a general observation. 

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Primarily amateur golf has a large majority who don't fully understand how best to achieve sound impact positions. And because they continue by and large to do the same things but expect better & different results. Think A.E had a view on this.

The majority of amateur golfers don't really have a PSR at all, barring either get to the ball or tee the ball up, as they aim from beside the ball whilst setting their feet in first so being aimed at a precise target tends to be a bit of a lottery shot to shot. 

So even if a passable swing is made through the ball it still very often doesn't go in the direction they're expecting it should, but it did go more or less in the direction it was bound to be going given where they'd ended up pointing at with club face & body alignment.

If your not precise in lining up & aiming properly but are, as said on this thread a few times already, happy for the ball to go roughly in the right area, that's exactly what's going to happen most of the time, to often only roughly in the right area.

Golf's ultimately a target game, want good results you have to be precise.


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## Snelly (Apr 3, 2014)

the_coach said:



			Primarily amateur golf has a large majority who don't fully understand how best to achieve sound impact positions.
		
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You are not wrong there.  I would include myself in that.


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## richart (Apr 3, 2014)

London mike 61 said:



			In my opinion a good pre shot routine should establish ;

1. A good ball position for the chosen club ( where the club makes contact with the ground put the ball there )

2. Direction ( aim ) of shot

3. Path of initial takeaway ( not outside nor too much inside the line )

4. Tempo 

So the list should read aim, ball position , path, tempo.

All the above should take no longer than a minute and can be applied to most shots including putting.
		
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 On that basis I would have played my second shot before you teed off.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 3, 2014)

London mike 61 said:



			In my opinion a good pre shot routine should establish ;

1. A good ball position for the chosen club (* where the club makes contact with the ground put the ball there* )

2. Direction ( aim ) of shot

3. Path of initial takeaway ( not outside nor too much inside the line )

4. Tempo 

So the list should read aim, ball position , path, tempo.

All the above should take no longer than a minute and can be applied to most shots including putting.
		
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I don't strictly agree with this. The ball should be positioned at the point in the swing where the clubface is pointing directly down the chosen line. Ideally this will be at the bottom of the arc but often isn't.


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## G_Mulligan (Apr 4, 2014)

Take your time and don't rush, a good PSR is ESSENTIAL. It will get your mind in the right place, it will make you more confident, it will make you hit better shots.

Spend a good 30 seconds just visualising the correct shot, see the ball flight, feel the contact, see the ball going exactly how you pictured it. If you can't then you have doubts in your mind, perhaps you don't have the right club. Select a new club and a new target, start over with your visualisation until you can see the correct shot and the right outcome. Now take a few practice swings really feeling the swing. Take your aim back behind the ball then take your stance. Plenty of waggles here to remove tension, keep that positive target in your mind, this is VITAL, if you lose the positivity and confidence you have to start all over again.

Gobbledygook 101 for beginners and professionals alike. 

Or just spend a few seconds picturing the shot and the outcome you want, everyone does it whether you want to admit it or not. Take a few more seconds to quieten the mind and bury those thoughts, take your stance without thinking about it, you body is well rehearsed and will get into the correct position without help. Trust your swing, no mechanical thoughts, no thoughts about target, no thoughts about outcome.

Tiger said when he was playing his best he sometimes got to the green or the next tee and had no idea how he got there. His PSR was so good and his mind so quiet he can't even remember doing it. Like driving a car and getting to a destination with little or no memory of the trip you let your instinctive motor control take over from your analytical thinking brain. Learn how to do that and that is how you get into the zone and play your best golf. A good PSR is not essential especially if you are naturally good at doing this but it helps especially if you sometimes just can't switch off that brain of yours.


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## Snelly (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Spend a good 30 seconds just visualising the correct shot, see the ball flight, feel the contact, see the ball going exactly how you pictured it. If you can't then you have doubts in your mind, perhaps you don't have the right club. Select a new club and a new target, start over with your visualisation until you can see the correct shot and the right outcome. Now take a few practice swings really feeling the swing. Take your aim back behind the ball then take your stance. Plenty of waggles here to remove tension, keep that positive target in your mind, this is VITAL, if you lose the positivity and confidence you have to start all over again.
		
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You cannot be serious?

Essential and vital?  Like breathing? 

How do Snedeker and Woosnam play to their standard without this then?  Or my grandfather who never took a practice swing in his golfing career but managed to play at 2 or better for two decades and played for Yorkshire? 

You are stating that all this is vital and yet you play off a handicap that was only available to girls when I learned to play? 

Quite unbelievable.  I can only assume that you are taking the proverbial.


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

Snelly said:



			You cannot be serious?

Essential and vital?  Like breathing? 

How do Snedeker and Woosnam play to their standard without this then?  Or my grandfather who never took a practice swing in his golfing career but managed to play at 2 or better for two decades and played for Yorkshire? 

You are stating that all this is vital and yet you play off a handicap that was only available to girls when I learned to play? 

Quite unbelievable.  I can only assume that you are taking the proverbial.
		
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Lol. I take it you gave up reading the post after the first paragraph then?


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## mcbroon (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Take your time and don't rush, a good PSR is ESSENTIAL. It will get your mind in the right place, it will make you more confident, it will make you hit better shots.

Spend a good 30 seconds just visualising the correct shot, see the ball flight, feel the contact, see the ball going exactly how you pictured it. If you can't then you have doubts in your mind, perhaps you don't have the right club. Select a new club and a new target, start over with your visualisation until you can see the correct shot and the right outcome. Now take a few practice swings really feeling the swing. Take your aim back behind the ball then take your stance. Plenty of waggles here to remove tension, keep that positive target in your mind, this is VITAL, if you lose the positivity and confidence you have to start all over again.

Gobbledygook 101 for beginners and professionals alike. 

*Or just spend a few seconds picturing the shot and the outcome you want, everyone does it whether you want to admit it or not. Take a few more seconds to quieten the mind and bury those thoughts, take your stance without thinking about it, you body is well rehearsed and will get into the correct position without help. Trust your swing, no mechanical thoughts, no thoughts about target, no thoughts about outcome.*

Tiger said when he was playing his best he sometimes got to the green or the next tee and had no idea how he got there. His PSR was so good and his mind so quiet he can't even remember doing it. Like driving a car and getting to a destination with little or no memory of the trip you let your instinctive motor control take over from your analytical thinking brain. Learn how to do that and that is how you get into the zone and play your best golf. A good PSR is not essential especially if you are naturally good at doing this but it helps especially if you sometimes just can't switch off that brain of yours.
		
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Snelly said:



			You cannot be serious?

Essential and vital?  Like breathing? 

How do Snedeker and Woosnam play to their standard without this then?  Or my grandfather who never took a practice swing in his golfing career but managed to play at 2 or better for two decades and played for Yorkshire? 

You are stating that all this is vital and yet you play off a handicap that was only available to girls when I learned to play? 

Quite unbelievable.  I can only assume that you are taking the proverbial.
		
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I read it that the first two paragraphs were taking the mick.  I think the bit in bold is what he's actually suggesting.

However, if I'm reading it wrong, then I'm complete agreement with you, Snelly.


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## Jack_bfc (Apr 4, 2014)

That's how I read it as well!!


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## scottbrown (Apr 4, 2014)

Threads like this make me laugh. Surely the whole basic principal is hit it, find it, hit it again. 
Threads like this make me realise why most of my day is now given to golf due to 4-5 hour rounds. 

And a serious question.....looking at some of the handicaps saying they have a Boeing pre flight check list before each shot.... 
Pros often take a longish PSR but are having 60 odd shots a round, not 90/100. 

Alignment is fine etc but if you can't hit it straight do you not think you are just adding another level of complexity?


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## Snelly (Apr 4, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			That's how I read it as well!!
		
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I read the whole thing and didn't appreciate the subtlety of the split meaning? Maybe I am just being bit thick? I sincerely hope so in this instance.


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## G1BB0 (Apr 4, 2014)

I find the longer I take the worse the outcome!

If playing poor (normal) I go back to no practice swing and tend to do better.

I sort of see why pro's take so long, its their living and they do have a repeatable swing and exact (almost) distances so therfore more precise.

At the end of the day do whatever works for you, anything thats constantly repeated is a routine of sorts so just go with what suits.


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## London mike 61 (Apr 4, 2014)

Just to clarify a few things about my first post on this thread;

I was giving the OP a general overview on what I think a PSR ought to contain and if you have not really thought about one then it was a good place to start debating as to a sequence of actions to arrive at a good PSR.

The most debatable issue was that I said that the routine should take no longer than a minute to complete, now I realise this is too long in reality to go through a palaver on the course but what I should have said and I didn't was that the routine should be grooved off the course and only taken to the course as part of your game when totaly enmeshed.

By the way I do not take a minute to do mine and would not endorse anyone however new they are to the game to take too long to get ready to hit the ball.

I do believe however that in my opinion it is a good idea to have a PSR.


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## G_Mulligan (Apr 4, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I read the whole thing and didn't appreciate the subtlety of the split meaning? Maybe I am just being bit thick? I sincerely hope so in this instance.
		
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I thought it was pretty obvious considering the gobbledygook comment, just thought I would add to the obvious preconceptions you have towards my profession.

As for my handicap? Let's assume I have not taken offense at the questioning of my academic integrity based on sports performance, lets see it as a fairly pathetic yet factual comment that girls only used to be allowed a handicap as high as mine, again will have to ignore the offense you may have given to female golfers that you are using their ability in a derogatory sense to compare to my own. 

Moving on from all that, I wonder if Lewis Hamilton asks his chief engineer how fast he can go around corners? Come back and tell me how to save my tyres when you can win a grand prix. Maybe Ronnie O'sullivain made Steve Peters prove to him he could knock in a century break before he listened to his advice and won the world championships two years in a row. Probably not to be honest.


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## North Mimms (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Take your time and don't rush, a good PSR is ESSENTIAL. It will get your mind in the right place, it will make you more confident, it will make you hit better shots.

Spend a good 30 seconds just visualising the correct shot, see the ball flight, feel the contact, see the ball going exactly how you pictured it. If you can't then you have doubts in your mind, perhaps you don't have the right club. Select a new club and a new target, start over with your visualisation until you can see the correct shot and the right outcome. Now take a few practice swings really feeling the swing. Take your aim back behind the ball then take your stance. Plenty of waggles here to remove tension, keep that positive target in your mind, this is VITAL, if you lose the positivity and confidence you have to start all over again.

Gobbledygook 101 for beginners and professionals alike. 

.
		
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 Ha ha ha!

You forgot to add...don't forget to wake up your playing partners when you have finished and tell them it is their turn now!


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## Snelly (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			I thought it was pretty obvious considering the gobbledygook comment, just thought I would add to the obvious preconceptions you have towards my profession.

.
		
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Obvious to all except me it would seem. 

 And I don't have pre-conceptions but I have an opinion which is essentially that before your chosen field existed, there were always brilliant sports people and somehow they managed to be amazing without someone like you whispering in their ear. 

Did Pele have a sports shrink?  Or Bobby Jones?  No they didn't but apparently weekend hackers need one in order to unlock their golfing potential. 


That said, I do still have an open mind on this and if Homer gets to Cat 1 in the next 12 months after a chat with one of your contemporaries then I will radically change my view.


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## Birchy (Apr 4, 2014)

Stand and deliver :whoo:

ne:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			Take your time and don't rush, a good PSR is ESSENTIAL. It will get your mind in the right place, it will make you more confident, it will make you hit better shots.

Spend a good 30 seconds just visualising the correct shot, see the ball flight, feel the contact, see the ball going exactly how you pictured it. If you can't then you have doubts in your mind, perhaps you don't have the right club. Select a new club and a new target, start over with your visualisation until you can see the correct shot and the right outcome. Now take a few practice swings really feeling the swing. Take your aim back behind the ball then take your stance. Plenty of waggles here to remove tension, keep that positive target in your mind, this is VITAL, if you lose the positivity and confidence you have to start all over again.

Gobbledygook 101 for beginners and professionals alike. 

Or just spend a few seconds picturing the shot and the outcome you want, everyone does it whether you want to admit it or not. Take a few more seconds to quieten the mind and bury those thoughts, take your stance without thinking about it, you body is well rehearsed and will get into the correct position without help. Trust your swing, no mechanical thoughts, no thoughts about target, no thoughts about outcome.

Tiger said when he was playing his best he sometimes got to the green or the next tee and had no idea how he got there. His PSR was so good and his mind so quiet he can't even remember doing it. Like driving a car and getting to a destination with little or no memory of the trip you let your instinctive motor control take over from your analytical thinking brain. Learn how to do that and that is how you get into the zone and play your best golf. A good PSR is not essential especially if you are naturally good at doing this but it helps especially if you sometimes just can't switch off that brain of yours.
		
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Sorry but it's not vital or essential in the slightest

30 secs just visualising !!

Sorry but if someone did that whilst I was playing they would end up playing on their own - it's nonsense and it's slow nonsense that has ground our game to halt 

Far too many people are doing these countless routines and it's dragging the times of rounds through the roof 

It's all coming from Pros 

Check distance , pick club , have a couple of swishes if needed , aim , hit - done and dusted in about 10 secs


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Obvious to all except me it would seem. 
... and if Homer gets to Cat 1 in the next 12 months after a chat with one of your contemporaries then I will radically change my view.
		
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Seems LiverpoolPhil missed it too! 

And for a more realistic 'test' how about 'reconsidering' if he gets to Single Figures? Though it could be the clubs!


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Seems LiverpoolPhil missed it too! 

And for a more realistic 'test' how about 'reconsidering' if he gets to Single Figures? Though it could be the clubs!
		
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Or maybe we could just not insult people based on handicaps.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Or maybe we could just not insult people based on handicaps. 

Click to expand...

Umm :mmm:

Must have missed that ?


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Umm :mmm:

Must have missed that ?
		
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Wasn't you matey.


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## 3565 (Apr 4, 2014)

It amuses me on this forum that ALOT on here disregard something that they no nothing about, and discredit those who have taken the time to look into, try things and to implement into their game. Those who do are trying to improve their game to achieve their goal, and some by what I can gain from this forum are quite happy to pootle along with their game and disbelieve those who TRY! 

The psychologist has done his studying in his field and has given his time to give his thoughts on the matter of the mental side of the game that DOES EXIST. if you don't then maybe you need to see a shrink yourselves. What his hc got to do with his knowledge of sports psychology is immaterial, is  Shaun Foley a better golfer then Tiger, no, but Tiger see's him cos of his knowledge of the golf swing. At least the psychologist HAS a hc unlike someone on here shouting from the roof tops. 

The greatest MAJOR winner of all time has stated he never hit a shot even on the practise round until he was 100% ready and sure. And by judging some of the comments I don't know why you waste your time on even 20 secs, why not just plonk your bag down, grab the nearest club, tee it up and whack it, as clearly your not interested in shooting the lowest score possible but to go round in the least time possible?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

It always amuses me when people who play golf as a hobby want to act like the pro they see on telly 

By doing so they hold up the rest of the golf course whilst they are getting themselves 100% ready 

Slow play is a big deal within golf right now - both at your local club and on the tour - pre shot routines and people "preparing themselves" are becoming a big factor in the pace of the game.

If people want to do all the pros pre shot routines and want to get themselves 100% mentally prepared then do it at the back of the field and let the people who just want it relax and enjoy themselves go round at the proper pace. 

We aren't major winners , we don't play the game to earn money - it's a sport related hobby for us all. We aren't Tiger Woods - shame some want to act like him


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			pre shot routines and people "preparing themselves" are becoming a big factor in the pace of the game.
		
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I would argue that PSR's are not the reason for slow play, just "overly-long" PSR's...


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## 3565 (Apr 4, 2014)

It's obvious that you are happy with the standard as you are as a golfer, last time I looked the object of the game is to get the little white ball into 18 holes in as fewest shots as possible, and not a race? Just because someone is trying their best to be better and WANTING to be better then they are, don't criticise them for trying. You obviously don't!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

3565 said:



			It's obvious that you are happy with the standard as you are as a golfer, last time I looked the object of the game is to get the little white ball into 18 holes in as fewest shots as possible, and not a race? Just because someone is trying their best to be better and WANTING to be better then they are, don't criticise them for trying. You obviously don't!
		
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Will criticise if that wanting it be better is effecting other peoples enjoyment of the game 

Golf may not be a race but it's also not a whole day event.

I don't care about my standard - I care about my enjoyment of the hobby I do in my spare time


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## scottbrown (Apr 4, 2014)

While I get the mental game for a pro as any tiny margins can mean Â£100,000s as the competition is so high. 

I think the point people are trying to make is that are those small margins that a mental game may (or may not make ) really going to help the 90+ % of golfers who can't break 80? Probably not, the key to that IMO is a repeatable swing not a repeatable practice swing and alignment and mentally picturing the shot before stuffing it 20 yards. 

As an example, most pro football teams see sports psychs but how many of your local Sunday league team do? Are u saying that they obviously don't want to win? 

People make golf far more complicated than it is, and whilst I respect peoples rights to spend their money on whatever they want, please respect peoples right to get round a course in a reasonable time, time is the most precious commodity about as it can't be got back once lost.


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2014)

To be honest I should be surprised, but I'm not 

30 secs visualising a shot FFS, there in itself demonstrates why slow play is strangling the game. 

Chuck in aimpoint and the other bollards and you have 5 hr round.

Psr and the rest of the guff have no impact on performance, otherwise the average handicap would be coming down, which it's not.


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## richart (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It always amuses me when people who play golf as a hobby want to act like the pro they see on telly
		
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 Same here Phil.  I doubt there are many on here that enjoy a game of golf more than me. They may play better, probably a lot better, but I just want to hit it, find it, and hit it again. In between I want to have a bit of banter with like minded folk. 

The more you think about something, the more it will mess with your head. Richart 4/4/2014.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

richart said:



			Same here Phil.  I doubt there are many on here that enjoy a game of golf more than me. They may play better, probably a lot better, but I just want to hit it, find it, and hit it again. In between I want to have a bit of banter with like minded folk. 

The more you think about something, the more it will mess with your head. Richart 4/4/2014.

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And that final statement is perfect ! 

It's a hobby - an enjoyable one where the banter flows on and off the course and at times we hit the ball into a hole


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And that final statement is perfect ! 

It's a hobby - an enjoyable one where the banter flows on and off the course and at times we hit the ball into a hole
		
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Is it coincidence, that those golfers I've played with who have an extended pre shot routine also happen to be the biggest tits I've encountered on the course ??


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

therod said:



			Is it coincidence that those golfers I've played with who have an extended pre shot routine also happen to be the biggest tits I've encountered on the course ??
		
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:rofl:

Coffee on the I Pad moment 

And you are spot on - the mid handicappers acting like pros !


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## richart (Apr 4, 2014)

therod said:



			Is it coincidence, that those golfers I've played with who have an extended pre shot routine also happen to be the biggest tits I've encountered on the course ??
		
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:rofl: Now I will have to clean up my keybpard.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 4, 2014)

3565 said:



			It amuses me on this forum that ALOT on here disregard something that they no nothing about, and discredit those who have taken the time to look into, try things and to implement into their game. Those who do are trying to improve their game to achieve their goal, and some by what I can gain from this forum are quite happy to pootle along with their game and disbelieve those who TRY! 

The psychologist has done his studying in his field and has given his time to give his thoughts on the matter of the mental side of the game that DOES EXIST. if you don't then maybe you need to see a shrink yourselves. What his hc got to do with his knowledge of sports psychology is immaterial, is  Shaun Foley a better golfer then Tiger, no, but Tiger see's him cos of his knowledge of the golf swing. At least the psychologist HAS a hc unlike someone on here shouting from the roof tops. 

The greatest MAJOR winner of all time has stated he never hit a shot even on the practise round until he was 100% ready and sure. And by judging some of the comments I don't know why you waste your time on even 20 secs, why not just plonk your bag down, grab the nearest club, tee it up and whack it, as clearly your not interested in shooting the lowest score possible but to go round in the least time possible?
		
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Some interesting points you've made there.

Firstly, who says the people on here *know* nothing about sports psychology? For what it's worth, I don't need anyone to tell me how great I am, I already know. 

And secondly, I agree that a round of golf isn't a race BUT I don't want to spend 5 hours on the course while other people dick about with their PSR's. This is all part of the greater problem of people not knowing how to conduct themselves on the course. Your PSR should start before you even get to your ball NOT when it's your turn to play!


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## 3565 (Apr 4, 2014)

That's fine, if you want a social game and that's all what golf means to you, a little get together with a laughs banter and jokes then I can accept that, you obviously don't have ambition in the game which is your prerogative, but don't decry players who are busting their guts wanting to be better just because it's effecting your buddies enjoying the laughs banter and jokes and if that's all what golf means to you then, sit back, relax, enjoy the company, the walk, smell the flowers and occasionally hit a white ball towards a hole in the ground, in a field.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 4, 2014)

3565 said:



			That's fine, if you want a social game and that's all what golf means to you, a little get together with a laughs banter and jokes then I can accept that, *you obviously don't have ambition in the game which is your prerogative*, but don't decry players who are busting their guts wanting to be better just because it's effecting your buddies enjoying the laughs banter and jokes and if that's all what golf means to you then, sit back, relax, enjoy the company, the walk, smell the flowers and occasionally hit a white ball towards a hole in the ground, in a field.
		
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Excuse me but I play in scratch team matches and county and national level competitions. This year I will be playing in the English mid am amongst other competitions. Please don't jump to conclusions


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

3565 said:



			That's fine, if you want a social game and that's all what golf means to you, a little get together with a laughs banter and jokes then I can accept that, you obviously don't have ambition in the game which is your prerogative, but don't decry players who are busting their guts wanting to be better just because it's effecting your buddies enjoying the laughs banter and jokes and if that's all what golf means to you then, sit back, relax, enjoy the company, the walk, smell the flowers and occasionally hit a white ball towards a hole in the ground, in a field.
		
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You have missed the point entirely 

Golf is a social game for us amateurs - it's a hobby , it's what we do in our spare time to relax and socialise. That is 90% of the make up is club golf. 

You have made lots of accusations towards people who enjoy themselves on a golf course. 

Put it this way how many people have their game "effected" by people just enjoying themselves and playing to a nice pace without any needs for elongated PSR or aimpoint etc etc on a golf course ? These people are still respectful a they keep quiet when people are playing their shot and show good ettiqute towards fellow golfers. Would that effect your game ? 

Now I have no problem with people wanting to improve their golf - I wanted to score better and I did - but I didn't need any 100%focus for each shot or any elongated PSR or aiming method on the greens - I just played a bit more and relaxed and enjoyed the game for what it is - an enjoyable hobby.

The problem I have is and It appears others do is when these 100% focus or PSR or aiming methods etc effect the pace of play on a golf course and then effect every single other golfer out there - that's the problem - people spending over a minute on each shot whilst they go through some long PSR and getting them focused 100% because someone like Karl Morris has told them and they see the pros on the course do it !? 

If someone really wants to do that then go out in the last group so they don't hold everyone up - or play when they know the golf course is quiet and they won't effect everyone else on the course. 

I have played with people who have spent ages over each shot and asked them to speed up because they were effecting my game - their response - "I need to do this to play to my best" !! Well I told him by doing that he was effecting everyone else and holding up play and effecting his FC ! It's selfish and rude and it's becoming a problem in many golf clubs that suffer from long rounds


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## G_Mulligan (Apr 4, 2014)

it really is amazing how the preconceptions on here have clouded peoples views. Read my post again please, I really thought it was obvious that I was taking the michael based on a previous post. Then naturally these two turn up and jump on the bandwagon tickling each other into fits of giggles. 

If you do read it properly you will see that I actually advocate a short PSR.

Any golfer pro or otherwise that is taking several practice swings, constantly changing their mind and doubting themselves or spending too long 'psyching' themselves up are not going to be playing their best. Perhaps they play slightly better on occasions than if they were more haphazard but that does not make it the optimum approach.


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2014)

therod said:



*30 secs visualising a shot FFS*, there in itself demonstrates why slow play is strangling the game.
		
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Another who completely misinterpreted the Gobbledegook 101 post!



therod said:



			Chuck in aimpoint and the other bollards and you have 5 hr round.
		
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Definitely not - if done properly.



therod said:



			Psr and the rest of the guff have no impact on performance, otherwise the average handicap would be coming down, which it's not.
		
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Hard Evidence please - other it's just bluster!

Do you even know what the average handicap is?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			it really is amazing how the preconceptions on here have clouded peoples views. Read my post again please, I really thought it was obvious that I was taking the michael based on a previous post. Then naturally these two turn up and jump on the bandwagon tickling each other into fits of giggles. 

If you do read it properly you will see that I actually advocate a short PSR.
		
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I read and understood your original post (although I didn't comment on it) but that doesn't change the fact that a high percentage of amateurs that only play as a hobby DO spend inordinate amounts of time on a PSR.

If I was playing for Â£000,000's of pounds then fair enough but I'm not.


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2014)

3565 said:



			That's fine, if you want a social game and that's all what golf means to you, a little get together with a laughs banter and jokes then I can accept that, you obviously don't have ambition in the game which is your prerogative, but don't decry players who are busting their guts wanting to be better just because it's effecting your buddies enjoying the laughs banter and jokes and if that's all what golf means to you then, sit back, relax, enjoy the company, the walk, smell the flowers and occasionally hit a white ball towards a hole in the ground, in a field.
		
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There's loads of people on here who play to a comparable level to you without out the need for a completely robotic approach to the game.


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I read and understood your original post (although I didn't comment on it) but that doesn't change the fact that a high percentage of amateurs that only play as a hobby DO spend inordinate amounts of time on a PSR.

If I was playing for Â£000,000's of pounds then fair enough but I'm not.
		
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And up to now, I believe that almost everybody has stated that an elongated PSR is wrong. Very wrong. Some people have misinterpreted a post and turned an interesting thread into a witch hunt.. I'm not one for psychology in golf, but I wouldn't decry it for anyone else..


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Another who completely misinterpreted the Gobbledegook 101 post!



Definitely not - if done properly.



Hard Evidence please - other it's just bluster!

Do you even know what the average handicap is?
		
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Wind your neck in foxy, I refer you to post 84!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

My posts aren't aimed at Mr Mulligan - reading back it's clear what his second paragraph was meaning 

I may not agree with the psychology stuff though 

My posts are in direct response to 3665


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 4, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			And up to now, I believe that almost everybody has stated that an elongated PSR is wrong. Very wrong. Some people have misinterpreted a post and turned an interesting thread into a witch hunt.. I'm not one for psychology in golf, but I wouldn't decry it for anyone else..
		
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This raises another interesting point. I believe this forum is pretty representative of the general UK golfing population and everyone is in agreement(?) that there is no need for an extended PSR. So who is doing these long winded PSR's then? 

Obviously not GM forum members


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My posts aren't aimed at Mr Mulligan - reading back it's clear what his second paragraph was meaning 

I may not agree with the psychology stuff though 

My posts are in direct response to 3665
		
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I appreciate that, but I think that 3565 is trying to defend G Mulligan from some Psychology detractors..


In all honesty Phil, I've got say that anyone who spends as much time and effort on a forum as some on here (including myself) probably need more than a little help in the mental department...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I appreciate that, but I think that 3565 is trying to defend G Mulligan from some Psychology detractors..


In all honesty Phil, I've got say that anyone who spends as much time and effort on a forum as some on here (including myself) probably need more than a little help in the mental department...

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Im not mental - I know they are all out to get me 


I have no problems with PSR and psyhco babel stuff as long as when it's your turn to play you are ready to hit the ball and don't hold up play - people can pray to Buddha in between shots if they wish


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			it really is amazing how the preconceptions on here have clouded peoples views. Read my post again please, I really thought it was obvious that I was taking the michael based on a previous post. Then naturally these two turn up and jump on the bandwagon tickling each other into fits of giggles. 

If you do read it properly you will see that I actually advocate a short PSR.

Any golfer pro or otherwise that is taking several practice swings, constantly changing their mind and doubting themselves or spending too long 'psyching' themselves up are not going to be playing their best. Perhaps they play slightly better on occasions than if they were more haphazard but that does not make it the optimum approach.
		
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Whoops just re read it properly, apologies :cheers:

Still stand by post 84 though, maybe the psr's I've experienced have been done badly

It's not about 4hrs of non stop banter, everyone wants to play well, but in my experience those who are in the zone are the ones you want to be drawn with least


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

drive4show said:



			This raises another interesting point. I believe this forum is pretty representative of the general UK golfing population and everyone is in agreement(?) that there is no need for an extended PSR. So who is doing these long winded PSR's then? 

Obviously not GM forum members  

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Without naming names, I do know someone who does an extended PSR (not a forum member). I've watched it develop over 2 years and started with a complete loss of form. He's just getting back to form now and the routine is getting shorter, but it was painful to watch at times...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 4, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Without naming names, I do know someone who does an extended PSR (not a forum member). I've watched it develop over 2 years and started with a complete loss of form. He's just getting back to form now and the routine is getting shorter, but it was painful to watch at times...
		
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Name and shame!!!


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## G_Mulligan (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Im not mental - I know they are all out to get me 


*I have no problems with PSR and psyhco babel stuff* as long as when it's your turn to play you are ready to hit the ball and don't hold up play - people can pray to Buddha in between shots if they wish
		
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quite amazing really  no problem with it apart from the fact it is complete nonsense obviously


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Name and shame!!!  

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I couldn't.. I suspect he lurks on here but hasn't registered yet...


A great guy who just got a little bit lost in the routine while trying to find the magic ingredient of his swing...


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2014)

therod said:



			Wind your neck in foxy, I refer you to post 84!!
		
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More Bluster then!

You haven't a clue what the average handicap is do you! Yet claim it hasn't changed!

My version of your post 84.
Is it coincidence, that the best golfers I've encountered have a definite and identifiable pre shot routine.



therod said:



			Whoops just re read it properly, apologies :cheers:
		
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And I refer you to post 92 (and 71)!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			quite amazing really  no problem with it apart from the fact it is complete nonsense obviously
		
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Is that allowed. ? 

Apologies if that offends your profession but I think it's nonsense at our level to be more specific

But I people want to believe in it then no problems - just don't let it effect others games.


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## G_Mulligan (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that allowed. ? 

Apologies if that offends your profession but I think it's nonsense at our level to be more specific

But I people want to believe in it then no problems - just don't let it effect others games.
		
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yeah no problem I just enjoyed the irony, it made me smile 

no offense to my profession there are plenty who do use psychobabble, mostly American coach led pseudo psychology. 

I don't do that. I am good.


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			More Bluster then!

You haven't a clue what the average handicap is do you! Yet claim it hasn't changed!

My version of your post 84.
Is it coincidence, that the best golfers I've encountered have a definite and identifiable pre shot routine.
		
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Not bluster foxy, it's the truth, the only bluster on here is the yawn inducing pedantry you insist on coming out with. 

I believe the average handicap hasn't changed, however  have no desire to get into that with you because you would wear me down with your pedantic bollards. 

If you wish to be pedantic (which I know you do) I refer you to the word extended. 

How's the charity work by the way??


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
Apologies if that offends your profession but I think it's nonsense at our level to be more specific
		
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Some questions then that might lead onto more.

Do you practice? Why?

At what point do you stop conversation when someone nearby is the next to play? Why?

When would you want others to stop their conversation when it's your turn to play? Why?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Some questions then that might lead onto more.

Do you practice? Why?

At what point do you stop conversation when someone nearby is the next to play? Why?

When would you want others to stop their conversation when it's your turn to play? Why?
		
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I don't practise 

The conversation stops when it looks like the person is ready to hit the ball 

Why - to give them silence to not put them off because is etiquette


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2014)

therod said:



			Not bluster foxy, it's the truth
		
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Prove it then! 

Until you do it's bluster!

Btw. You may be right, but you still have to prove it! And also make the link between the theory and results, excluding 'noise'/other factors!


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The conversation stops when it looks like the person is ready to hit the ball 

Why - to give them silence to not put them off because is etiquette
		
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So do you continue to converse through their preparation?

You didn't answer the last question.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So do you continue to converse through their preparation?

You didn't answer the last question.
		
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Preperation ? 

A depends on what that "preperation" is where they are in relation to where I am standing - there is nothing set in stone 

As for me - I have been speaking to people as I line up and up until I pull my club back as I start my back swing.


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As for me - I have been speaking to people as I line up and up until I pull my club back as I start my back swing.
		
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Hah! A couple of my regular PPs have pointed out on a couple of occasions that it's only during the downswing that I'd stopped!


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Excuse me but I play in scratch team matches and county and national level competitions. This year I will be playing in the English mid am amongst other competitions. Please don't jump to conclusions  

Click to expand...

That wasn't directed at you, so I'm sorry if you took it that way.  Obviously you play to a very high standard and competitive level, so you of all people will know the amount of hard work thru preparation to compete. Preparation is the key to successful golf and especially at your level which you would of done. For players who PREFER competitive golf they have to start somewhere, which can be on the practise ground to attain a PSR, but when on the course it becomes a whole different ball game and trying to control the gobbledygook that goes on in your head........... Surely you can understand that? 

Good luck in your endeavours this season and maybe our paths might cross at Worksop.....


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I appreciate that, but I think that 3565 is trying to defend G Mulligan from some Psychology detractors..


In all honesty Phil, I've got say that anyone who spends as much time and effort on a forum as some on here (including myself) probably need more than a little help in the mental department...

Click to expand...

I am, I think it's disrespectful. Just because he doesn't do it doesn't mean everyone else has not got to do it.


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have missed the point entirely 

*Golf is a social game for us amateurs - it's a hobby , it's what we do in our spare time to relax and socialise*. That is 90% of the make up is club golf. 

You have made lots of accusations towards people who enjoy themselves on a golf course. 

Put it this way how many people have their game "effected" by people just enjoying themselves and playing to a nice pace without any needs for elongated PSR or *aimpoint* etc etc on a golf course ? These people are still respectful a they keep quiet when people are playing their shot and show good ettiqute towards fellow golfers. Would that effect your game ? 

Now I have no problem with people wanting to improve their golf - I wanted to score better and I did - but I didn't need any 100%focus for each shot or any elongated PSR or aiming method on the greens - I just played a bit more and relaxed and enjoyed the game for what it is - an enjoyable hobby.

The problem I have is and It appears others do is when these 100% focus or PSR or aiming methods etc effect the pace of play on a golf course and then effect every single other golfer out there - that's the problem - people spending over a minute on each shot whilst they go through some long PSR and getting them focused 100% because someone like Karl Morris has told them and they see the pros on the course do it !? 

*If someone really wants to do that then go out in the last group so they don't hold everyone up - or play when they know the golf course is quiet and they won't effect everyone else on the course. *

*I have played with people who have spent ages over each shot and asked them to speed up because they were effecting my game - *their response - "I need to do this to play to my best" !! Well I told him by doing that he was effecting everyone else and holding up play and effecting his FC ! *It's selfish and rude *and it's becoming a problem in many golf clubs that suffer from long rounds
		
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That's your opinion, but to some it means more and since it's just a laugh for you, you will never get it. And likewise you have made lots of accusations towards people who would like to improve. How many people have had their games 'effected' by people who rush round the course up the groups arses in front and start flailing their arms about and start shouting slow play? Is that showing good etiquette? 

Aimpoint. You've not done it so don't comment on it cos you don't get it and won't get it no matter how many times you've been told. In fact your normal method takes longer then Express read..... 

Interesting that you want players who hold YOU UP to get either up early to play or start late as not to get in Liverpoolpils way?? And you talk about selfish? 

And if your not into psychobabble and don't believe it then why are you letting them effect your game? And talk about being rude, better paint yourself with the same brush?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			Good luck in your endeavours this season and maybe our paths might cross at Worksop.....
		
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You can buy me a beer as an apology


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have missed the point entirely 

Golf is a social game for us amateurs - it's a hobby , it's what we do in our spare time to relax and socialise. That is 90% of the make up is club golf. 

You have made lots of accusations towards people who enjoy themselves on a golf course. 

Put it this way how many people have their game "*effected*" by people just enjoying themselves and playing to a nice pace without any needs for elongated PSR or aimpoint etc etc on a golf course ? These people are still respectful a they keep quiet when people are playing their shot and show good ettiqute towards fellow golfers. Would that *effect *your game ? 

Now I have no problem with people wanting to improve their golf - I wanted to score better and I did - but I didn't need any 100%focus for each shot or any elongated PSR or aiming method on the greens - I just played a bit more and relaxed and enjoyed the game for what it is - an enjoyable hobby.

The problem I have is and It appears others do is when these 100% focus or PSR or aiming methods etc *effect* the pace of play on a golf course and then *effect* every single other golfer out there - that's the problem - people spending over a minute on each shot whilst they go through some long PSR and getting them focused 100% because someone like Karl Morris has told them and they see the pros on the course do it !? 

If someone really wants to do that then go out in the last group so they don't hold everyone up - or play when they know the golf course is quiet and they won't *effect* everyone else on the course. 

I have played with people who have spent ages over each shot and asked them to speed up because they were *effect*ing my game - their response - "I need to do this to play to my best" !! Well I told him by doing that he was *effect*ing everyone else and holding up play and *effect*ing his FC ! It's selfish and rude and it's becoming a problem in many golf clubs that suffer from long rounds
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			But I people want to believe in it then no problems - just don't let it *effect* others games.
		
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3565 said:



			And if your not into psychobabble and don't believe it then why are you letting them *effect* your game? And talk about being rude, better paint yourself with the same brush.
		
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My pedantry for the evening/morning.....

Can you guys please use 'affect' and 'effect' properly?


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

drive4show said:



			You can buy me a beer as an apology  

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Oooooooooo that might be pushing it.........


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			My pedantry for the evening/morning.....

Can you guys please use 'affect' and 'effect' properly?
		
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Sorry, illiterate here  I'm just copying him.


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## Robobum (Apr 5, 2014)

therod said:



			How's the charity work by the way??

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That, sir, is pure genius!!!

Haha love it


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## Robobum (Apr 5, 2014)

drive4show said:



			You can buy me a beer as an apology  

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Lets convene this meeting in Hooters then!!??

That'll be my Logan prep!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			That wasn't directed at you, so I'm sorry if you took it that way.  Obviously you play to a very high standard and competitive level, so you of all people will know the amount of hard work thru preparation to compete. Preparation is the key to successful golf and especially at your level which you would of done. For players who PREFER competitive golf they have to start somewhere, which can be on the practise ground to attain a PSR, but when on the course it becomes a whole different ball game and trying to control the gobbledygook that goes on in your head........... Surely you can understand that? 

Good luck in your endeavours this season and maybe our paths might cross at Worksop.....
		
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When did I ever say I don't play competitive golf ?

I play in regular tournaments including very serious pro Am's and County Tournaments plus scratch tournaments.

I can do that ( and do very well ) without the need of elongated PSR etc.

Preparation isn't the key - hitting the ball well on the day is the key


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			That's your opinion, but to some it means more and since it's just a laugh for you, you will never get it. And likewise you have made lots of accusations towards people who would like to improve. How many people have had their games 'effected' by people who rush round the course up the groups arses in front and start flailing their arms about and start shouting slow play? Is that showing good etiquette? 

Aimpoint. You've not done it so don't comment on it cos you don't get it and won't get it no matter how many times you've been told. In fact your normal method takes longer then Express read..... 

Interesting that you want players who hold YOU UP to get either up early to play or start late as not to get in Liverpoolpils way?? And you talk about selfish? 

And if your not into psychobabble and don't believe it then why are you letting them effect your game? And talk about being rude, better paint yourself with the same brush?
		
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Never get it ?!

Again you miss the point entirely

I'm all for people taking it serious and are competitive, no problems with that at all.

If people are getting accused of slow play from the group behind that is because they are no doubt holding play up - that itself is one of golfs biggest problems. Just because people play at the correct steady pace and are ready to hit the ball as soon as possible doesn't mean they aren't being competitive - Perfect example is Snedeker - straight down onto his shot as soon as it's his turn to play

Yes I want players who hold me up to play at the back - because they don't just hold me up they hold everyone behind them up, their slow play has a knock on effect throughout the whole field.

The person who I was playing with effected the whole field - we lost holes to the people in front , we had to let groups through , we took 5 hours for a 3 ball to go round a golf course - all because he took so long over every single shot to get himself prepared - so his actions effected me and the other FC as well as the people behind him - that is a lack of awareness of his actions and the effect they have on his FC.

Slow play is killing golf both professionally and at the club on a weekend - elongated PSR's whilst people are getting themselves 100% ready for their shot are a big factor in that - it's a disease that needs sorting


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## Robobum (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Preparation isn't the key - hitting the ball well on the day is the key
		
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Bed prep will prevent you hitting the ball well Phil. I found that to my cost @ Ashburnham - prep was my head in a cocktail fish bowl @ 4am in Swansea during freshers week. I took my 3rd shot on the 1st hole from short of the road still!! 

2 things learnt that day: I am too old for that carry on and after some of the sites i saw......my daughter will never ever go to Swansea university!!!!


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## G_Mulligan (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did I ever say I don't play competitive golf ?

I play in regular tournaments including very serious pro Am's and County Tournaments plus scratch tournaments.

I can do that ( and do very well ) without the need of elongated PSR etc.

Preparation isn't the key - hitting the ball well on the day is the key
		
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the problem is you are a born natural, most people need to work at everything to get good at golf one of which is the PSR and do have to prepare before a match. You have the enviable ability to get low and stay low without practice and play your best with a seemingly haphazard approach. I would wager you do certain things at certain times before and during a comp but as you never had to think about them you don't know you do it or don't realise there significance.

Most golfers are not so lucky and have to do a number of things to play to their best, if this means they take an extra 20 seconds before each shot then I do not think this is adding an undue length of time to a game. Even if a PSR is a comfort blanket to some people, perhaps it does nothing but give them the confidence that they have prepared properly before each shot. If you don't need that then it would seem unnecessary to some and too long or complicated to others. 

I agree golfers tend to take the game too seriously at times, but I think the time for changing behaviour is after a bad shot not before a good one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

G_Mulligan said:



			the problem is you are a born natural, most people need to work at everything to get good at golf one of which is the PSR and do have to prepare before a match. You have the enviable ability to get low and stay low without practice and play your best with a seemingly haphazard approach. I would wager you do certain things at certain times before and during a comp but as you never had to think about them you don't know you do it or don't realise there significance.

Most golfers are not so lucky and have to do a number of things to play to their best, if this means they take an extra 20 seconds before each shot then I do not think this is adding an undue length of time to a game. Even if a PSR is a comfort blanket to some people, perhaps it does nothing but give them the confidence that they have prepared properly before each shot. If you don't need that then it would seem unnecessary to some and too long or complicated to others. 

I agree golfers tend to take the game too seriously at times, but I think the time for changing behaviour is after a bad shot not before a good one.
		
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Add on an extra 20 secs to the normal 10-20 secs people should take anyway and then multiple that by 80-90. That extra 20 secs per shot prob adds on over 30 mins to a game of golf. Those extra 20 secs are taking 4 hour medals to 4 and half hour medals and people arent just having the extra 20 secs - some its longer - up to a min. Just imagine one person doing that and then the snowball effect that will happen. 

We played in a Pro Am at Menzies Club - it took us 5hrs 10 mins to go round !! We were right up behind the group in front and the group behind where right up behind us - any rhythm people had just halted ( getting into a groove with the club i believe is vitally important to playing well ) and the round was ruined for many people - the cause was a Pro and his playing partners taking lots of time over each shot - the pro was awful - stepping up then stepping back and doing a very long PSR - his Am's also had PSRs taking too long - the actions of those four people had a massive effect on the rest of the field. It wasnt the first time for the Pro and i do believe he has been given a warning - but thats the sort of effect an extra 20secs plus has on a field of golfers.

Once your FC has taken their shot - you should be down ready to play your shot - if peoples PSR routine stops them from doing that then they need to change or find a way to change before going into comps.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 5, 2014)

On the European tour, the first player to arrive at his ball is allowed 50 seconds to play his shot, the rest of the group get 40 seconds. These are guys who are playing for thousands of pounds, not club golfers playing in the weekly stableford. There is absolutely no justification for club golfers to take any longer than 40 seconds. Add in the fact that they are hitting 20 or more shots per round and often playing in 4 balls and it is quite clear there is a problem. Amateurs also spend a lot of time looking for balls.

Start your prep as you walk to your ball, not when you get to it. A couple of swishes then hit the ball. As someone said earlier in this thread, the more you think about it, the more you clutter up your head.


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did I ever say I don't play competitive golf ?

I play in regular tournaments including very serious pro Am's and County Tournaments plus scratch tournaments.

I can do that ( and do very well ) without the need of elongated PSR etc.

*Preparation isn't the key - hitting the ball well on the day is the key*

Click to expand...

I'm glad you do well in them, obviously like the psychologist said you are very naturally talented and your attitude towards people who are TRYING leaves a lot to be desired. And this last comment you made, is utter bowl ex mate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			I'm glad you do well in them, obviously like the psychologist said you are very naturally talented and your attitude towards people who are TRYING leaves a lot to be desired. And this last comment you made, is utter bowl ex mate.
		
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Its not my attitude to people who are trying to do things but in them trying to do things are holding up play -

You appear to continuely miss the point the miss so i will say it again - i have no problems with people trying to improve themselves on the golf course and trying various methods to do so "*AS LONG AS IT DOESNT EFFECT THE PACE OF PLAY*" - when it does effect/affect the pace of play then i do have a problem with them.

And my last comment seems to be very valid for me. I dont do any pre comp preparation


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## SGC001 (Apr 5, 2014)

If you google pre-shot routine you get quite a lot come up. You can get examples from Tour players (Annikas has been quoted somewhere as 24 seconds). 

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/annika-sorenstam-my-pre-shot-routine/

http://www.vision54.com/LessonsinGolfandLife.pdf

http://annikasorenstam.com/posts/golf-tips-from-annika-concentration-and-focus/


I see no reason for an effective routine to hold up play, plenty seem to argue that it can help you and some even argue that people are doing it without realising. I might even have one, I was asked to demonstrate my routine in the past and made one up it took about 23 seconds and was remarkably consistent considering it definitely was not what I did.

http://www.golfpsych.com/blog/good-mental-pre-shot-routine/

Edit: I don't like to hang around anything above 2 hours 40 is too long for me. As someone mentioned earlier it's easy for rhythm to be affected and it is going to happen if you're going to play in comps. You can't (unfortunately) expect to get round in that sort of time, so I had to find ways of wasting time to allow myself to perform in comps. So I guess that I used time wasting avoidance strategies to allow myself to keep my rhythm, it was something I had to learn to deal with. Pre-shot routines may help deal with those kind of issues too.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 5, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Lets convene this meeting in Hooters then!!??

That'll be my Logan prep!! 

Click to expand...

That is the only prep I don't mind you taking excessive time over


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## garyinderry (Apr 5, 2014)

do people really have to consciously visualise the ball flight.  surely your mind will do this automatically?     otherwise we would be smashing into trees / getting blown away by the wind all the time.


oh wait!


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## scottbrown (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			That's fine, if you want a social game and that's all what golf means to you, a little get together with a laughs banter and jokes then I can accept that, you obviously don't have ambition in the game which is your prerogative, but don't decry players who are busting their guts wanting to be better just because it's effecting your buddies enjoying the laughs banter and jokes and if that's all what golf means to you then, sit back, relax, enjoy the company, the walk, smell the flowers and occasionally hit a white ball towards a hole in the ground, in a field.
		
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I am sorry but that is the biggest crock of ***** I have ever read. 
If I want to drive down the road the wrong way stopping traffic, is that ok? Because that's what people with 2 minute PSRs are doing to the traffic on the golf course


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## North Mimms (Apr 5, 2014)

You gotta love the internet.

Someone comes on talking about the benefit of a SHORT PSR, and others insist that PSRs are ruining the game and causing 5 hour rounds because they happened to play with some bloke who takes 2 minutes over a shot. 
You are not discussing the same thing so your arguments are flawed.

I have a set PSR- I am not a natural golfer so I need a structured approach especially as I am keen to improve.
Last week someone said i was a "refreshingly quick player"
So you CAN have a set PSR and not hold people up.

Also, my PSR may be short, but I would not be happy with someone who thought it was ok to chatter whilst I set up to the ball until *they* deem i am ready to hit the ball. Surely you could just shut up for the 15 seconds it takes me from checking distance to hitting ball?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			You gotta love the internet.

Someone comes on talking about the benefit of a SHORT PSR, and others insist that PSRs are ruining the game and causing 5 hour rounds because they happened to play with some bloke who takes 2 minutes over a shot. 
You are not discussing the same thing so your arguments are flawed.

I have a set PSR- I am not a natural golfer so I need a structured approach especially as I am keen to improve.
Last week someone said i was a "refreshingly quick player"
So you CAN have a set PSR and not hold people up.

*Also, my PSR may be short, but I would not be happy with someone who thought it was ok to chatter whilst I set up to the ball until *they* deem i am ready to hit the ball. Surely you could just shut up for the 15 seconds it takes me from checking distance to hitting ball?*

Click to expand...

As i said in my other post - what happens on the course isnt set in stone in regards how people act when people are getting ready - i have seen some who chat away and some who are quiet - you judge it as you play. Its all down to the players and how they interact.


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

scottbrown said:



			I am sorry but that is the biggest crock of ***** I have ever read. 
If I want to drive down the road the wrong way stopping traffic, is that ok? *Because that's what people with 2 minute PSRs are doing to the traffic on the golf course*

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Er. How many of these have you actually encountered? And, if any, what have you actually done about it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Er. How many of these have you actually encountered? And, if any, what have you actually done about it?
		
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I have encountered long PSR's and i have told them they were taking too long over their PSR routine and need to shorten it.


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## North Mimms (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As i said in my other post - what happens on the course isnt set in stone in regards how people act when people are getting ready - i have seen some who chat away and some who are quiet - you judge it as you play. Its all down to the players and how they interact.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't practise 

*The conversation stops when it looks like the person is ready to hit the ball *

Why - to give them silence to not put them off because is etiquette
		
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I'd prefer you to stop chatting for the scant 15 seconds it takes me to be ready to hit the ball. 
Though I'm like you, that I sometimes am still talking during my own backswing!


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## CMAC (Apr 5, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			You gotta love the internet.

Someone comes on talking about the benefit of a SHORT PSR, and others insist that PSRs are ruining the game and causing 5 hour rounds because they happened to play with some bloke who takes 2 minutes over a shot. 
You are not discussing the same thing so your arguments are flawed.

I have a set PSR- I am not a natural golfer so I need a structured approach especially as I am keen to improve.
Last week someone said i was a "refreshingly quick player"
*So you CAN have a set PSR and not hold people up.*

Also, my PSR may be short, but I would not be happy with someone who thought it was ok to chatter whilst I set up to the ball until *they* deem i am ready to hit the ball. Surely you could just shut up for the 15 seconds it takes me from checking distance to hitting ball?
		
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who said you can't?

mine is (hang on while I do it and time it)........................7 seconds after standing behind the ball to pulling the trigger. I really must speed it up:mmm:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I'd prefer you to stop chatting for the scant 15 seconds it takes me to be ready to hit the ball. 
Though I'm like you, that I sometimes am still talking during my own backswing!
		
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And it would be very clear for people when you need that silence and most will realise it - you get the odd who need a little nudge


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## Wedgey (Apr 5, 2014)

Timed mine today.....23 seconds


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## North Mimms (Apr 5, 2014)

CMAC said:



*who said you can't?*

mine is (hang on while I do it and time it)........................7 seconds after standing behind the ball to pulling the trigger. I really must speed it up:mmm:
		
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I include the stuff before standing behind the ball in my 15 seconds.
A lot of prep can be done while others are playing their shots. Can't stand people who don't seem to even*think* about their shot until it's "their turn"

Some on here seem to think that all PSR's slow things up. The joy of forum generalisations...


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## North Mimms (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And it would be very clear for people when you need that silence and most will realise it - you get the odd who need a little nudge
		
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Anyone who dares talk gets the Death Stare!


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have encountered long PSR's and i have told them they were taking too long over their PSR routine and need to shorten it.
		
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So what's 'too long'? As long as the group is keeping up with the group in front, does it matter? The 2 guys I know with the longest PSRs - or at least the most visible/consistent - are actually 2 of the lowest handicappers i know - 1 off +3, one off 3! 

I've seen a lot of golf and don't believe I've seen a 1 minute PSR, let alone a 2 min one. A few have got to maybe 40-50 secs, but that's after a disturbance/reset, not a regular one. And there have been plenty of over 5 hour rounds in that - for other reasons (not me btw).



Wedgey said:



			Timed mine today.....23 seconds 

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That's about normal.

Can you actually think of a way in which you could more than double that time in a PSR - and avoid getting so screwed up that you make a mess of it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I include the stuff before standing behind the ball in my 15 seconds.
*A lot of prep can be done while others are playing their shots. Can't stand people who don't seem to even*think* about their shot until it's "their turn"*

Some on here seem to think that all PSR's slow things up. The joy of forum generalisations...
		
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Thats exactly it - once your FC has played their shot you should be ready to play your shot.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So what's 'too long'? As long as the group is keeping up with the group in front, does it matter? The 2 guys I know with the longest PSRs - or at least the most visible/consistent - are actually 2 of the lowest handicappers i know - 1 off +3, one off 3! 

I've seen a lot of golf and don't believe I've seen a 1 minute PSR, let alone a 2 min one. A few have got to maybe 40-50 secs, but that's after a disturbance/reset, not a regular one. And there have been plenty of over 5 hour rounds in that - for other reasons (not me btw).


That's about normal.

Can you actually think of a way in which you could more than double that time in a PSR - and avoid getting so screwed up that you make a mess of it?
		
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Too long will be when its effecting the pace of play - whether that be losing ground or their FC's are waiting around for the person for a time they deem to be too long. 

As being said - most peoples "prep" can be done whilst their FC competitors are playing their shots.


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## North Mimms (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Too long will be when its effecting the pace of play - whether that be losing ground or their FC's are waiting around for the person for a time they deem to be too long. 

As being said - most peoples "prep" can be done whilst their FC competitors are playing their shots.
		
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I have an ongoing argument with my OH, who has incorporated "putting his glove on" into his PSR.
Put the darn thing on while the other chap is hitting his shot!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I have an ongoing argument with my OH, who has incorporated "putting his glove on" into his PSR.
Put the darn thing on while the other chap is hitting his shot!!
		
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Give him a clip round the ear !


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Too long will be when its effecting the pace of play - whether that be losing ground or their FC's are waiting around for the person for a time they deem to be too long. 

As being said - most peoples "prep" can be done whilst their FC competitors are playing their shots.
		
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A 1 second PSR will *a*ffect the pace of play! You need to do better than that!

Or is it simply too long when *you* think it's too long?! Even when you are right up the group in front's backsides and miles in front of the group behind!

I have no quibbles someone castigating a guy for not preparing at the earliest possible chance, wherever they happen to be.



North Mimms said:



			I have an ongoing argument with my OH, who has incorporated "putting his glove on" into his PSR.
Put the darn thing on while the other chap is hitting his shot!!
		
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Tell him to not take the bleeding thing off! Except maybe for putting!

And get it back on before he gets to the next Tee!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			A 1 second PSR will *a*ffect the pace of play! You need to do better than that!

Or is it simply too long when *you* think it's too long?! Even when you are right up the group in front's backsides and miles in front of the group behind!

I have no quibbles someone castigating a guy for not preparing at the earliest possible chance, wherever they happen to be.
		
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Its simply too long when the pace of the group is slow enough to lose ground on the group in front - hence why i said said ground on the group in front in the other post 

Will say it again - when you are losing ground on the group in front ( which appears to happen when i think the person is taking too long over each shot )

If you are right up with the group in front then the pace of play will be fine - with the obvuous being that the group in front have lost lots of ground etc


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its simply too long when the pace of the group is slow enough to lose ground on the group in front - hence why i said said ground on the group in front in the other post 

Will say it again - when you are losing ground on the group in front ( which appears to happen when i think the person is taking too long over each shot )

If you are right up with the group in front then the pace of play will be fine - with the obvuous being that the group in front have lost lots of ground etc
		
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So if the guy rushes his otherwise consistent 25 sec routine - to 18 secs say - in order to comply with your wishes, which causes him to take an extra shot on the hole, how much time do you think that has cost? And that time is time *you* have cost the group btw.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So if the guy rushes his otherwise consistent 25 sec routine - to 18 secs say - in order to comply with your wishes, which causes him to take an extra shot on the hole, how much time do you think that has cost? And that time is time *you* have cost the group btw.
		
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My wishes are that we keep pace with the group in front as it is expected of you on a golf course to ensure that rounds are kept to a minimum - if someones PSR means we lose touch with the group in front then yes i would expect them to quicken up as player to ensure we dont hold people up. 

You can keep coming up with different scenarios or twisting things but it wont change anything

Keep up with the group in front - simple as that


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 5, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Some on here seem to think that all PSR's slow things up. The joy of forum generalisations...
		
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Have you read what people are saying? Nobody is saying you can't have a PSR, just keep it reasonable and start it as soon as you can ie. as you walk towards your ball.


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## North Mimms (Apr 5, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Have you read what people are saying? Nobody is saying you can't have a PSR, just keep it reasonable and start it as soon as you can ie. as you walk towards your ball.
		
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Yes I have read what people are saying- i don't contribute to a thread without reading all of it.


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Have you read what people are saying? Nobody is saying you can't have a PSR, just keep it reasonable and start it as soon as you can ie. as you walk towards your ball.
		
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But there has been a fairly unsubtle undercurrent that is stating that PSR's are unnecessary and are the main cause of slow play... In my experience, the PSR is NOT the main cause of slow play, but an overly long, convoluted PSR may contribute, if that time is not made up elsewhere. For example, someone who has a 45s PSR, but virtually runs between shots, compared to someone who has a 15s PSR, but ambles and "banters" with his/her pals between shots... Generalisations don't help...


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## North Mimms (Apr 5, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			But there has been a fairly unsubtle undercurrent that is stating that PSR's are unnecessary and are the main cause of slow play... In my experience, the PSR is NOT the main cause of slow play, but an overly long, convoluted PSR may contribute, if that time is not made up elsewhere. For example, someone who has a 45s PSR, but virtually runs between shots, compared to someone who has a 15s PSR, but ambles and "banters" with his/her pals between shots... Generalisations don't help...

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Thank you. I knew what I had read!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 5, 2014)

bluewolf said:



*But there has been a fairly unsubtle undercurrent that is stating that PSR's are unnecessary* and are the main cause of slow play... In my experience, the PSR is NOT the main cause of slow play, but an overly long, convoluted PSR may contribute, if that time is not made up elsewhere. For example, someone who has a 45s PSR, but virtually runs between shots, compared to someone who has a 15s PSR, but ambles and "banters" with his/her pals between shots... Generalisations don't help...

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I haven't detected that. I would argue that everyone SHOULD have a PSR as proper preparation will help you execute the shot better and (hopefully) lead to fewer shots which obviously speeds up play. 15-30 seconds is ample.


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Keep up with the group in front - simple as that
		
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That we agree on!

But the guy with the medium-long PSR is not necessarily the reason for the loss of position!

And the 3-capper I play with, who has a deliberate medium-long PSR is generally not the cause, through his PSR, of any delays. There's more delay caused by the differing distances the group hit - where we all walk to the first ball (normally mine), then 30 yards to the next etc! Hitting similar distances really does help pace of play!

So if you said either of us needed to speed up our PSR, the reply would be something along the lines of '<Sex/Travel>! Walk faster; I have fewer shots this way! That saves much more time!'!


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I haven't detected that. I would argue that everyone SHOULD have a PSR as proper preparation will help you execute the shot better and (hopefully) lead to fewer shots which obviously speeds up play. 15-30 seconds is ample.
		
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And with that advice, the thread would have ended as everyone would have agreed... North Mimms is right that the discussion has been flawed from the start...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 5, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			And with that advice, the thread would have ended as everyone would have agreed... North Mimms is right that the discussion has been flawed from the start...

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Well....you should have asked for my advice 160 posts ago


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Well....you should have asked for my advice 160 posts ago  

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I'll remember that next time SILH posts something about the correct trousers to wear during Winter...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That we agree on!

But the guy with the medium-long PSR is not necessarily the reason for the loss of position!

And the 3-capper I play with, who has a deliberate medium-long PSR is generally not the cause, through his PSR, of any delays. There's more delay caused by the differing distances the group hit - where we all walk to the first ball (normally mine), then 30 yards to the next etc! Hitting similar distances really does help pace of play!

So if you said either of us needed to speed up our PSR, the reply would be something along the lines of '<Sex/Travel>! Walk faster; I have fewer shots this way! That saves much more time!'!
		
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And as i have said -have witnessed where FC's elongated PSR have caused slow play and cause us to lose ground on the group in front - what then ? Am i ok to ask them to speed up things ?


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And as i have said -have witnessed where FC's elongated PSR have caused slow play and cause us to lose ground on the group in front - what then ? Am i ok to ask them to speed up things ?
		
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The proper (and diplomatic) way is to state as you get to the next tee... 'Guys. We are losing ground, so need to speed up a bit. Anything we can do to speed up would be appreciated.'. There's an escalation process, should that not succeed, too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			The proper (and diplomatic) way is to state as you get to the next tee... 'Guys. We are losing ground, so need to speed up a bit. Anything we can do to speed up would be appreciated.'. There's an escalation process, should that not succeed, too.
		
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If someone is being slow then i will subtly let them know


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone is being slow then i will *subtly* let them know
		
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I'm not sure I can believe that!

It took some time, and assistance, for me to get the 'diplomacy' right too! 

I'm pretty sure many folk would not appreciate being told, even subtly, during a Medal round that they are struggling in that they need to change the way they are coping!


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## USER1999 (Apr 5, 2014)

I have a fairly elaborate pre shot routine. I have no idea how long it takes. I haven't timed it. It might drive people nuts, I have no idea. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If they did, I'd still do it anyway. 

I can play 18 holes in less than two hours on my own(boring!).

We were round as a 4 ball this morning (saturday) in less than 4 hours (at the 4 hour mark we had packed away, and were sat in the bar), and probably lost 15 odd minutes waiting for the group in front, who were waiting for... Etc.

I shot 76.

I'm not changing my routine any time soon. 

Looking for balls is the biggest time waster in my view. And yesterday, due to very poor driving, this was my fault. Big time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not sure I can believe that!

It took some time, and assistance, for me to get the 'diplomacy' right too! 

I'm pretty sure many folk would not appreciate being told, even subtly, during a Medal round that they are struggling in that they need to change the way they are coping!
		
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If people are holding up other golfers and causing our group to lose holes then yes I would tell the offenders because it will effect the whole field and not just me - I'm sorry if that would offend them but sometimes people just need told. 

It's happened at our club where people have been told to either speed up during a round or play later in the day as their slow play effected the whole field.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			I have a fairly elaborate pre shot routine. I have no idea how long it takes. I haven't timed it. It might drive people nuts, I have no idea. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If they did, I'd still do it anyway. 

I can play 18 holes in less than two hours on my own(boring!).

We were round as a 4 ball this morning (saturday) in less than 4 hours (at the 4 hour mark we had packed away, and were sat in the bar), and probably lost 15 odd minutes waiting for the group in front, who were waiting for... Etc.

I shot 76.

I'm not changing my routine any time soon. 

Looking for balls is the biggest time waster in my view. And yesterday, due to very poor driving, this was my fault. Big time.
		
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It appears your pace of play is no problem so you won't have any issues :thup:


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its not my attitude to people who are trying to do things but in them trying to do things are holding up play -

You appear to continuely miss the point the miss so i will say it again - i have no problems with people trying to improve themselves on the golf course and trying various methods to do so "*AS LONG AS IT DOESNT EFFECT THE PACE OF PLAY*" - when it does effect/affect the pace of play then i do have a problem with them.

And my last comment seems to be very valid for me. I dont do any pre comp preparation
		
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I'm not missing the point at all, I know what you are saying. But it seems if it doesn't fit your pace of play you pipe up! 

so your last line, your saying that when you play in scratch comps, county events and your pro ams, you don't hit balls or hit any putts before you go out and play? Is that correct?


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## stevelev (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That we agree on!

But the guy with the medium-long PSR is not necessarily the reason for the loss of position!

And the 3-capper I play with, who has a deliberate medium-long PSR is generally not the cause, through his PSR, of any delays. There's more delay caused by the differing distances the group hit - where we all walk to the first ball (normally mine), then 30 yards to the next etc! Hitting similar distances really does help pace of play!

So if you said either of us needed to speed up our PSR, the reply would be something along the lines of '<Sex/Travel>! Walk faster; I have fewer shots this way! That saves much more time!'!
		
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Well dont walk to each others ball for each shot. You can talk between shots, that is the biggest resson for slow play every player walking to each others ball for rvery shot.  On the green would you walk to each persons ball beforecyhey putted..... well why do it elsewhere.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			I'm not missing the point at all, I know what you are saying. But it seems if it doesn't fit your pace of play you pipe up! 

so your last line, your saying that when you play in scratch comps, county events and your pro ams, you don't hit balls or hit any putts before you go out and play? Is that correct?
		
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My pace of play is to keep up with the group in front - yours ? 

and yes you are correct


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## richart (Apr 5, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			I have a fairly elaborate pre shot routine. I have no idea how long it takes. I haven't timed it. It might drive people nuts, I have no idea. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If they did, I'd still do it anyway. 

I can play 18 holes in less than two hours on my own(boring!).

We were round as a 4 ball this morning (saturday) in less than 4 hours (at the 4 hour mark we had packed away, and were sat in the bar), and probably lost 15 odd minutes waiting for the group in front, who were waiting for... Etc.

I shot 76.

I'm not changing my routine any time soon. 

Looking for balls is the biggest time waster in my view. And yesterday, due to very poor driving, this was my fault. Big time.
		
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Chris your pre shot routine tends to be telling everyone how badly you are playing, and what trouble you are about to hit in to. At least no one can accuse you of being positive.


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## stevelev (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not sure I can believe that!

It took some time, and assistance, for me to get the 'diplomacy' right too! 

I'm pretty sure many folk would not appreciate being told, even subtly, during a Medal round that they are struggling in that they need to change the way they are coping!
		
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No point mincing Words.  Say its Slow, say Why,  tell them to get a move on. There really is no need to fanny round. By all means if there is a lost ball, well let the group behind through straight away if you cant find it straight away. Eitiquette is sadly lacking in many clubs, i might be blunt but i wont delay others or allow those in my group to do so, if they do i simlly tell them ifthey dont listen i tell them im letting the clubhouse know they are slow and causing hold ups.friend or not get a grip.


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My pace of play is to keep up with the group in front - yours ? 

and yes you are correct
		
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I therefore bow down to a genius...........

my pace of play is what it is on the day as you can't control what others do, only yourself. I tend not to banter between shots as I believe this can hold play up, I've played in a club match where one player would get to his ball and finish his banter before even contemplating his next shot, so overly long PSR's don't necessarily mean that it's a cause of slow play, it can be a number of things.


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

stevelev said:



			Well dont walk to each others ball for each shot. You can talk between shots, that is the biggest resson for slow play every player walking to each others ball for rvery shot.  On the green would you walk to each persons ball beforecyhey putted..... well why do it elsewhere.
		
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3 of the 4 are normally pretty much middle of the fairway!

Much less of a problem if in spread across the course - left/right rough and fairway. But no way around the 'problem' in this case - where all 'accurate' but different distances.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			I therefore bow down to a genius...........

my pace of play is what it is on the day as you can't control what others do, only yourself. I tend not to banter between shots as I believe this can hold play up, I've played in a club match where one player would get to his ball and finish his banter before even contemplating his next shot, so overly long PSR's don't necessarily mean that it's a cause of slow play, it can be a number of things.
		
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You don't speak to your FC between shots ?! 

Your pace of play as a group should be keeping up with the group in front of you - that I believe is accepted pace of play within all clubs and pro tournaments. If you're not keeping up with play then your group will be creating gaps in the field and more than likely holding up players behind you.


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## garyinderry (Apr 5, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			I have a fairly elaborate pre shot routine. I have no idea how long it takes. I haven't timed it. It might drive people nuts, I have no idea. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If they did, I'd still do it anyway. 

I can play 18 holes in less than two hours on my own(boring!).

We were round as a 4 ball this morning (saturday) in less than 4 hours (at the 4 hour mark we had packed away, and were sat in the bar), and probably lost 15 odd minutes waiting for the group in front, who were waiting for... Etc.

I shot 76.

I'm not changing my routine any time soon. 

Looking for balls is the biggest time waster in my view. And yesterday, due to very poor driving, this was my fault. Big time.
		
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what does this elaborate PSR include?  I have no idea what you could include outside of doing the Keegan Bradley dance.


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You don't speak to your FC between shots ?! 

Your pace of play as a group should be keeping up with the group in front of you - that I believe is accepted pace of play within all clubs and pro tournaments. If you're not keeping up with play then your group will be creating gaps in the field and more than likely holding up players behind you.
		
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I never said I don't speak to them, I tend not to banter as I'm sprinting down the fairway to reach my ball, to give me the maximum amount of time to prepare myself for the next shot I'm to play and not wanting to hold up a genius behind me. 

God you must be a barrel of laughs the second you see that you've lost 10 yds on the group in front.......


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			I never said I don't speak to them, I tend not to banter as I'm sprinting down the fairway to reach my ball, to give me the maximum amount of time to prepare myself for the next shot I'm to play and not wanting to hold up a genius behind me. 

God you must be a barrel of laughs the second you see that you've lost 10 yds on the group in front.......
		
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Nothing like dealing with extremes Is there

Do you intend of going to a forum meet or are they not serious enough for you and too much enjoyment for you


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			..
Your pace of play as a group should be keeping up with the group in front of you - that I believe is accepted pace of play within all clubs and pro tournaments. If you're not keeping up with play then your group will be creating gaps in the field and more than likely holding up players behind you.
		
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Remember that it's 'keeping up' not 'getting up (their chuffs)'. So with 9 minute tee times, you should be where the group in front are 9 minutes after them - with a bit of leeway for Par 3s and, maybe, 5s. 10 minute tee times actually normally means quicker, better flowing rounds.


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## MadAdey (Apr 5, 2014)

IMO slow PSR's do not slow down rounds like fast PSR's do not really speed them up. To me it is what the player does in preparation to playing his shot. I have just had a rough look at my PSR and it is around 20-30 secs. Thing is that time is reduced because I am getting ready for my shot before it is my turn to play. All I need to do before my shot is have a quick swing and line up. So am I holding up play more than someone with a 15 second PSR that does not start until it is their turn to play?

I think Phil is getting a rough ride here and I would agree with him. A long PSR is one that causes you group to loose ground on the match infront. 10, 20 60 seconds. It does not matter as a lot of that time can be cut down while waiting to play, it becomes a problem when you do not start while waiting to play.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Remember that it's 'keeping up' not 'getting up (their chuffs)'. So with 9 minute tee times, you should be where the group in front are 9 minutes after them - with a bit of leeway for Par 3s and, maybe, 5s. 10 minute tee times actually normally means quicker, better flowing rounds.
		
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Hence why is said keeping up as opposed to pushing - but obviously if the group in front have slowed down then you may well end up being stuck behind them and end up waiting for them. Normally when I reach the tee I expect the group in front to have just moved on for their second shots , and when I reach my second shot they have just left the green.


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## chrisd (Apr 5, 2014)

I tend to frequent the "stay just in front of the group behind" camp. It makes them feel quick!


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## richart (Apr 5, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			IMO slow PSR's do not slow down rounds like fast PSR's do not really speed them up. To me it is what the player does in preparation to playing his shot. I have just had a rough look at my PSR and it is around 20-30 secs. Thing is that time is reduced because I am getting ready for my shot before it is my turn to play. All I need to do before my shot is have a quick swing and line up. So am I holding up play more than someone with a 15 second PSR that does not start until it is their turn to play?

I think Phil is getting a rough ride here and I would agree with him. A long PSR is one that causes you group to loose ground on the match infront. 10, 20 60 seconds. It does not matter as a lot of that time can be cut down while waiting to play, it becomes a problem when you do not start while waiting to play.
		
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 Good post mate. I couldn't care less what someone's PSR is, as long as they are ready to play when it is their turn. Unfortunately I have seen a lot of golfers who watch their partners play, and then start deciding what club to get out of the bag. Perhaps that is part of their PSR ?


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## richart (Apr 5, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I tend to frequent the "stay just in front of the group behind" camp. It makes them feel quick!  

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 Get it wrong though Chris, and you will get a ball smacked through you.


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## chrisd (Apr 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Get it wrong though Chris, and you will get a ball smacked through you.

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You're not long enough Rich!


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## MadAdey (Apr 5, 2014)

Do you know what, sod all these PSR's. What really grips my [insert 4 letter word starting with S] is people who insist on studying putts from all 4 angles then doing a plumb line with their putter. They then still miss that 12 foot putt 12 inches below the hole and stick it 4 foot past, then go and do it all again. Now that is a PSR that slows play down.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

What's a plumb line ?


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## richart (Apr 5, 2014)

chrisd said:



			You're not long enough Rich! 

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 I know a golfer who is.


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## garyinderry (Apr 5, 2014)




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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

garyinderry said:








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Looks a bit of a plonker


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## chrisd (Apr 5, 2014)

richart said:



			I know a golfer who is.

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Smiffys not straight enough!


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## richart (Apr 5, 2014)

garyinderry said:








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 I bet it breaks right to left. Didn't even need Aimpoint for that one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

richart said:



			I bet it breaks right to left. Didn't even need Aimpoint for that one.

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Genuine :rofl:


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## MadAdey (Apr 5, 2014)

richart said:



			I bet it breaks right to left. Didn't even need Aimpoint for that one.

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Looks more left to right from my angle.......


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## richart (Apr 5, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Looks more left to right from my angle.......

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 When did you last hole a 12 footer ?:ears:


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## MadAdey (Apr 5, 2014)

richart said:



			When did you last hole a 12 footer ?:ears:
		
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A couple of times last last week at BElton.......:clap:


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why is said keeping up as opposed to pushing - but obviously if the group in front have slowed down then you may well end up being stuck behind them and end up waiting for them. Normally when I reach the tee I expect the group in front to have just moved on for their second shots , and when I reach my second shot they have just left the green.
		
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Well that's either very close to pushing them (most likely) or you guys are actually bloody slow - 9 minutes to play your tee shots, get to them and play your seconds!

That also means you are almost certainly going to be waiting for them to clear the green, if not actually waiting for the last of them to get onto it!

There's a distinct pace-of-play argument, where the 1st is a Par 4, to (generally) prevent the next group from tee-ing off until the group ahead is walking onto the green. That's normally pretty much bang on 10 mins. Par 3s sort themselves out and Par 5s playing 3rd shots. all pretty much 10 mins.

If that gap is maintained, all rounds flow and at optimum pace.

So, given that you don't dawdle, you are too close - pushing! On a Par 4, they should, again, be walking onto the green as you prepare to tee off.


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## 3565 (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing like dealing with extremes Is there

Do you intend of going to a forum meet or are they not serious enough for you and too much enjoyment for you
		
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Didnt realise that was a prerequisite to be on this forum!!! 

Not really as I wouldn't like to be a downer as I'm a pro in an amateur body that takes it too seriously, can't have a laugh, and not keep up cos my Aimpoint routine is longer then my PSR as I need to get my digital level out, protractor and set square to get my line of putt, I then have to get my metronome out for my putting stroke, and god forbid if you were the group behind me, so I'll leave you to your little meets cos I don't think I'd be popular if you saw me do that! 

Ill stick to my serious, dower, gloomy, tedious boring golf I think..


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## USER1999 (Apr 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Chris your pre shot routine tends to be telling everyone how badly you are playing, and what trouble you are about to hit in to. At least no one can accuse you of being positive.

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Well, it works for me!

No one ever said golf was meant to be fun, either. It is to be endured, not enjoyed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

3565 said:



			Didnt realise that was a prerequisite to be on this forum!!! 

Not really as I wouldn't like to be a downer as I'm a pro in an amateur body that takes it too seriously, can't have a laugh, and not keep up cos my Aimpoint routine is longer then my PSR as I need to get my digital level out, protractor and set square to get my line of putt, I then have to get my metronome out for my putting stroke, and god forbid if you were the group behind me, so I'll leave you to your little meets cos I don't think I'd be popular if you saw me do that! 

Ill stick to my serious, dower, gloomy, tedious boring golf I think.. 

Click to expand...


:rofl:

There is no prerequisites to join the forum

One of the best things though is getting the chance to play golf with various people on various courses around the course and enjoy ourselves 

But seeing as enjoyment is certainly off your radar I can't see the "little meets" will be your flavour - they are all about what great about golf. 

Have nice evening :thup:


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## USER1999 (Apr 5, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			what does this elaborate PSR include?  I have no idea what you could include outside of doing the Keegan Bradley dance.
		
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I'm some where between Kevin na, and that idiot on tv last weekend!


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## USER1999 (Apr 5, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Do you know what, sod all these PSR's. What really grips my [insert 4 letter word starting with S] is people who insist on studying putts from all 4 angles then doing a plumb line with their putter. They then still miss that 12 foot putt 12 inches below the hole and stick it 4 foot past, then go and do it all again. Now that is a PSR that slows play down.
		
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A guy I know ( he is very slow), plumb bobs every shot. So he stands on the first tee, dangling his driver, ascertaining the break on the first fairway.

He has been a member of my club for 45 years.

It's flat. It always has been.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Well that's either very close to pushing them (most likely) or you guys are actually bloody slow - 9 minutes to play your tee shots, get to them and play your seconds!

That also means you are almost certainly going to be waiting for them to clear the green, if not actually waiting for the last of them to get onto it!

There's a distinct pace-of-play argument, where the 1st is a Par 4, to (generally) prevent the next group from tee-ing off until the group ahead is walking onto the green. That's normally pretty much bang on 10 mins. Par 3s sort themselves out and Par 5s playing 3rd shots. all pretty much 10 mins.

If that gap is maintained, all rounds flow and at optimum pace.

So, given that you don't dawdle, you are too close - pushing! On a Par 4, they should, again, be walking onto the green as you prepare to tee off.
		
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Sorry think we have exhausted it all now - given my idea of the correct pace of play

But regardless of what people expect or what tee gaps there are people will always get held up because things always happen within groups to delay things and long rounds happen. 

Enjoy the rest of the weekend


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But regardless of what people expect or what tee gaps there are people will always get held up because things always happen within groups to delay things and long rounds happen.
		
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That is true.

Just don't blame your FC's, slightly longer than you think is necessary, PSR for them!

Have a nice amiable round!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That is true.

Just don't blame your FC's, slightly longer than you think is necessary, PSR for them!

Have a nice amiable round!
		
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I will blame them* if *it's a cause of the slowness of a round 

Enjoy :thup:


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## MadAdey (Apr 5, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			A guy I know ( he is very slow), plumb bobs every shot. So he stands on the first tee, dangling his driver, ascertaining the break on the first fairway.

He has been a member of my club for 45 years.

It's flat. It always has been.
		
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LOL


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			:rofl:

There is no prerequisites to join the forum

One of the best things though is getting the chance to play golf with various people on various courses around the course and enjoy ourselves 

But seeing as enjoyment is certainly off your radar I can't see the "little meets" will be your flavour - they are all about what great about golf. 

Have nice evening :thup:
		
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who says I don't enjoy myself when on the golf course? Not me! It's your presumption that I don't, like your presumption that PSR's and Aimpoint cause slow play? 

I can have a laugh and enjoy myself on a golf course just like you've been harking on about. 

Anyway got to go to bed and prepare myself to hold the field up in the morning with my excessive PSR, up at 5:30 an hours workout prancing about in my leotard doing yoga, before doing Zen, then to the practise ground with at least 140 balls with visualisation on every shot, get the stimp out for Aimpoint then 3/4 hr routine with that, then tee off at 8:18 and hopefully finish at 13:23 and be anti social to my FCs before, during and after my round. It'll be a great day for being ultra competitive cos that's what it's all about. 






note, the last paragraph is sarcastic to those players that have presumed certain things tonight.


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## North Mimms (Apr 6, 2014)

3565 said:



			who says I don't enjoy myself when on the golf course? Not me! It's your presumption that I don't, like your presumption that PSR's and Aimpoint cause slow play? 

I can have a laugh and enjoy myself on a golf course just like you've been harking on about. 

Anyway got to go to bed and prepare myself to hold the field up in the morning with my excessive PSR, up at 5:30 an hours workout prancing about in my leotard doing yoga, before doing Zen, then to the practise ground with at least 140 balls with visualisation on every shot, get the stimp out for Aimpoint then 3/4 hr routine with that, then tee off at 8:18 and hopefully finish at 13:23 and be anti social to my FCs before, during and after my round. It'll be a great day for being ultra competitive cos that's what it's all about. 






note, the last paragraph is sarcastic to those players that have presumed certain things tonight.
		
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Ha ha!
Don't forget to spend plenty of time fishing old balls out of the water, and make sure your score card is filled in before teeing off!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2014)

3565 said:



			who says I don't enjoy myself when on the golf course? Not me! It's your presumption that I don't, like your presumption that PSR's and Aimpoint cause slow play? 

I can have a laugh and enjoy myself on a golf course just like you've been harking on about. 

Anyway got to go to bed and prepare myself to hold the field up in the morning with my excessive PSR, up at 5:30 an hours workout prancing about in my leotard doing yoga, before doing Zen, then to the practise ground with at least 140 balls with visualisation on every shot, get the stimp out for Aimpoint then 3/4 hr routine with that, then tee off at 8:18 and hopefully finish at 13:23 and be anti social to my FCs before, during and after my round. It'll be a great day for being ultra competitive cos that's what it's all about. 






note, the last paragraph is sarcastic to those players that have presumed certain things tonight.
		
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you have continuely missed the point in this thread 

I think at one point you said that people that just play the game for enjoyment "dont get it" 

You have gone on about how your playing competively - dont engage in banter and you arent there for laughs and jokes.

Unless you are a Pro - then this game is a hobby - we don't do it to earn money , its not out job , its something we do that we enjoy when we have spare time.

This quote from you sums it up for me 



3565 said:



			That's fine, if you want a social game and that's all what golf means to you, a little get together with a laughs banter and jokes then I can accept that, you obviously don't have ambition in the game which is your prerogative, but don't decry players who are busting their guts wanting to be better just because it's effecting your buddies enjoying the laughs banter and jokes and if that's all what golf means to you then, sit back, relax, enjoy the company, the walk, smell the flowers and occasionally hit a white ball towards a hole in the ground, in a field.
		
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## North Mimms (Apr 6, 2014)

Everyone plays golf for different reasons. Doesn't mean others are wrong.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Everyone plays golf for different reasons. Doesn't mean others are wrong.
		
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Correct - but just because people play it for enjoyment doesnt mean they dont get it or have no ambition in the game. 

People can be competitive whilst also enjoying the game , people can play well whilst also enjoying the game and having the banter and the laughs and the jokes.

the one thing i would always request is that whatever people do on the golf course or how they act or how serious they take it - it should never effect other peoples games. 

thankfully i have only ever witnessed people that play the game for the enjoyment and for the company and have the banter etc - even the pro ams i play - the pro i play with loves the pro ams - because he has a very good time with the company and get the perfect mix. He does all the serious stuff when he plays in his pro tournaments.


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## MadAdey (Apr 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Correct - but just because people play it for enjoyment doesnt mean they dont get it or have no ambition in the game. 

People can be competitive whilst also enjoying the game , people can play well whilst also enjoying the game and having the banter and the laughs and the jokes.

the one thing i would always request is that whatever people do on the golf course or how they act or how serious they take it - it should never effect other peoples games.
		
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I'll come and bat in your corner Phil and go 100% with what you have said. 3565 reads to me as he is saying anyone who just goes out to enjoy them self and have a laugh, does not take the game serious and has no ambition to get better. I do not take this game serious at all, the only time I touch my clubs is to clean them, or play a round. I play to have a laugh and a bit of banter, just as long as people still show respect to other players when they are playing a shot.


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## richart (Apr 6, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I'll come and bat in your corner Phil and go 100% with what you have said. 3565 reads to me as he is saying anyone who just goes out to enjoy them self and have a laugh, does not take the game serious and has no ambition to get better. I do not take this game serious at all, the only time I touch my clubs is to clean them, or play a round. I play to have a laugh and a bit of banter, just as long as people still show respect to other players when they are playing a shot.
		
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That makes three of us then Adey. We must be in the minority on here, but strangely at my club I am in the majority. Any way I know what type of golfer I would rather enjoy playing with.


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*you have continuely missed the point in this thread* 

I think at one point you said that people that just play the game for enjoyment "dont get it" 

You have gone on about how your playing competively - dont engage in banter and you arent there for laughs and jokes.

Unless you are a Pro - then this game is a hobby - we don't do it to earn money , its not out job , its something we do that we enjoy when we have spare time.

This quote from you sums it up for me
		
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Just tell me what was the point of this thread again? Cos I'm pretty thick you know?


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## MadAdey (Apr 6, 2014)

richart said:



			That makes three of us then Adey. We must be in the minority on here, but strangely at my club I am in the majority. Any way I know what type of golfer I would rather enjoy playing with.
		
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Definatly, hopefully you mean people like me :mmm:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Definatly, hopefully you mean people like me :mmm:
		
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Certainly people like you :thup:


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2014)

Certainly not me cos I don't take the happy pills :rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2014)

3565 said:



			Certainly not me cos I don't the happy pills :rofl:
		
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Yes it would be a struggle to play with someone who doesnt want to have banter in between shots is happy to take as long as needed on a golf course without worrying about slow play and thinks players who look for enjoyment in the game have no ambition :thup:


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes it would be a struggle to play with someone who doesnt want to have banter in between shots is happy to take as long as needed on a golf course without worrying about slow play and thinks players who look for enjoyment in the game have no ambition :thup:
		
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:rofl:Just take out the comments which are relevant and disregard what I've also said, like if a quick PSR would make me a better golfer I'd do it, I said I TEND not to banter I never said I DONT, but I'm not ignorant towards them, I never said I don't have a laugh on the course that was your opinion, and as for ambition, well your body can't do it, cos you don't practise or hit balls or putt before a comp and prefer to enjoy your hobby!!!!


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## richart (Apr 6, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Definatly, hopefully you mean people like me :mmm:
		
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:thup:



3565 said:



			Certainly not me cos I don't take the happy pills :rofl:
		
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 As Lee Trevino famously said to Tony Jacklin when TJ didn't want to chat during the last round of the Open in 72. 'You don't have to talk Tony, just listen' Trevino won, with Jacklin finishing 3rd.:mmm: Perhaps you can play good golf, and have banter as well. 

I personally think you only need to concentrate fully for about 30 seconds before and during the hitting of your shot. The walk in between shots should be to relax and take the pressure off yourself. What would I know though as I am not a serious golfer.


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## bluewolf (Apr 6, 2014)

richart said:



			:thup:

I personally think you only need to concentrate fully for about 30 seconds before and during the hitting of your shot. The walk in between shots should be to relax and take the pressure off yourself. What would I know though as I am not a serious golfer.

Click to expand...

precisely my idea of golf. If I couldn't have a good laugh between shots then I'd probably go back to diving. It doesn't mean that I don't want to shoot the best score I can though. Just that I'm not willing to spend 4 hours being miserable to do it.


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## 3565 (Apr 6, 2014)

God what is it about you lot and sarcasm do you not get? I've taken the piss out of myself on this and you've taken me seriously even after I said I do have a laugh on the golf course. I may take my golf seriously but that's my choice, you don't but I've not said that your wrong not to take it seriously! I've been quoted out of context on some things and some quotes have been singled out that are on the whole, part of a converse with others.

If your not a serious golfer then that's your choice, each to their own, who says your way or my way is right or wrong?


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## MadAdey (Apr 7, 2014)

3565 said:



			God what is it about you lot and sarcasm do you not get? I've taken the piss out of myself on this and you've taken me seriously even after I said I do have a laugh on the golf course. I may take my golf seriously but that's my choice, you don't but I've not said that your wrong not to take it seriously! I've been quoted out of context on some things and some quotes have been singled out that are on the whole, part of a converse with others.

If your not a serious golfer then that's your choice, each to their own, who says your way or my way is right or wrong?
		
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We may hae read you wrong, I apologize if we have. It is just that you came across along the lines of anyone who goes out for a laugh and some banter does not take their golf very serious and will never be any good. You also made it look like your one of those miserable golfers that you dread getting drawn with in the monthly medal beause you abrely say a word all round, let alone have a laugh and know how to laugh at yourself.

Like I said, sorry if I have read you wrong, but that is how your posts read and i'm not the only one who saw them like that. It is difficult at time to put things the way you want to when using a forum and they get taken the wrong way. That is the glory of an emoticon,  used correctly they can get your point across in the way you meant it. :thup:


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