# Am i "flipping" the club here?



## KJT123 (Aug 25, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq2iEiXYW2Q

I have a feeling it is something to do with my wrists.

Thoughts? drills on how to get hands more ahead at impact?


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## One Planer (Aug 25, 2016)

KJT123 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq2iEiXYW2Q

I have a feeling it is something to do with my wrists.

Thoughts? drills on how to get hands more ahead at impact?
		
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Take a look at your hand position at impact in relation to the ball position.







They seem very 'back' with no forward shaft lean at impact.

Compare with someone like Luke Donald:







His hands are leading the club head into the ball. 

As for drills, not too sure but I'm sure someone will be along with suggestions.


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## Foxholer (Aug 25, 2016)

KJT123 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq2iEiXYW2Q

I have a feeling it is something to do with my wrists.

Thoughts? drills on how to get hands more ahead at impact?
		
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It certainly looks that way!

If you are not a 'Stack and Tilt' swinger, then you should lose the 'reverse pivot' (upper body moving towards the target in the backswing) and transfer weight to a flexed right leg, followed by 'ground up' weight transfer to the ball of the left foot, opening up the hips in sync!

If you ARE a 'Stack and Tilter', you need to improve the timing (synchronising) of the hip and arm (upper body/shoulder) movements! Holding back the hips a little and keeping the wrists cocked for as long as possible, on the downswing, should help.  

As for drills..do a search for 'golf lag drills' and find one (or several) that suit you. I'm not a fan of the impact - as it has the opposite effect - for me! I have seen it work for others though! I have a 'power fan' that seems to suit me - it 'educates' my wrists (and the rest of the body) about where they should be at the critical part of the downswing!


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## Huwey12 (Aug 25, 2016)

KJT123 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq2iEiXYW2Q

I have a feeling it is something to do with my wrists.

Thoughts? drills on how to get hands more ahead at impact?
		
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This is my problem when I'm out of nick, it's known as casting ie straightening the shaft relative to your arms too early. Just practise on the range keeping the wrists cocked back (away from the target) for longer
You know when your casting when you don't take a decent divot after the ball
Keeping the wrists cocked back gives you more lag and power and gives you more time to transfer your weight onto your lead leg. Try not to move your upper body towards the target (left ear behind the ball at Impact if you're rh)


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 26, 2016)

Try afew baseball swings.
Sand upright. Swing your club like it's a baseball bat a couple of times.
Then move the club down a bit so you are moving towards a more natural golf swing. Do it again.
Then address the ball.
Do it again.

I'm sure there are videos that explain it better. I've seen one from Faldo's old trainer (I forget his name - senility and all that)
But it's a simple drill that works wonders


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 26, 2016)

Leadbetter !!!!

I knew that, honest &#128563;
Google Leadbetter baseball drill and give it a go.

Might not help your golf, but does wonders for your memory....
&#128560;


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## the_coach (Aug 26, 2016)

KJT123 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq2iEiXYW2Q

I have a feeling it is something to do with my wrists.

Thoughts? drills on how to get hands more ahead at impact?
		
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yep there's a flip release going on - usually reason behind that is  what ever issues there are in folks motions, the swing, folks  instinctively learn that the flip is necessary to help square up the  face to get ball somewheres in the region of the target

if you  freeze impact position (though the image definition is not so good) can  see that the hands/handle/club 'release' the flip is happening when the  hands are opposite the trail thigh the shaft lead arm all in a straight  line the angles have bee lost early

so generally that's around the arms/club unit not being synced up with the body motion they got a little ways left behind

so  not down to the wrists themselves but if the grip hold little ways out  so the hands/wrists not setting 'up' in the backswing that wouldn't help  stuff - but not a route cause - image not clear enough to see grip hold  at set-up and with only face-on view can't tell for sure what 'plane'  the hands are setting on

if you freeze set-up looks a bit like  the upper body alignment is a little skewed open (to check look at a dtl  view) so them the arms club unit set with the hands a fair ways infront  of the ball here - forwards leaning shaft for sure needed at impact but  not a big lean at set-up

are you working with a 'stack and tilt'  teacher? as seems from this most of the weight in the swing motion is  staying on the lead side - for sure don't want lateral sway off the ball  but there's still a need through a turn to have weight pressure into  the trail leg heel as the body rotates behind the ball

so from  this swing motion the issues look like there's too much staying on the  leadside then too much leadside upper body movement to target ( check  out how far the lead hip as traveled so the lead led is pretty 'bowed' -  very difficult to then rotate the hips into impact and rotate the upper  torso to have the trail shoulder trail hip rotating through 
and  right shoulder not turning down, out and forwards with the body a ways  too far in front means the arms swing too far behind so flip

if  you are 'stack and tilting' then would get back to the Pro whose giving  those lessons to see what he recommends - as that's not in my wheel  house

if not S&T then would get say an 8i bunch of tees and  on grass tee ball up 1/4" place another tee an 8i clubhead length  directly in front
set-up the fone to record face on views so you can review the swing length during the training practice

then  set-up with the ball in middle of stance hands/handle just overtop  front of ball (will feel like you got no forwards lean but there will be  enough) swing at 60% with a 3/4 length backswing (to do that you'll  need to feel you stop when the lead arm is horizontal to the ground so  'half a swing' - but guarantee on vid you'll see the swing is really a  deal longer than that in fact probably a full 3/4 swing or more) 

important  to swing at 60% to give time to sync up the motion of hips - and feel  like you do nothing much so no lateral lurch to target- the upper body  rotation with the arms - have few slow mo rehearsals and you'll find the  arms should be easy to match up with the turn and this is what gets the  hands forwards opposite lead thigh with some angles left so hands lead  clubhead
focus on rhythm and balance hold the finish good strikes  will also remove the tee in front (could always lay a bag towel some 4"  behind the ball as an extra guide that the swings are made with any  contact with the towel)

also could always as part of this or just  on it's own stick an alignment stick vertically in the ground 4" from  lead foot off the heel you have then to make balanced swings that you  don't contact the stick with the lead hip - so weight pressure into lead  leg at transition start - but the lead hip turns inside the stick -  again start any of the drills only at 60% have the ball on small tee -  object to the drills is to sync up the motion in balance not to try to  kill the ball to produce distance -so use say an 8i thinking its goin  just a 100 yards - but distance is not the concern here first off it  will be the sync then good ball contact to also take the tee out in  front then ball starting line to target in that order

if you try  out any of this stuff put an alignment stick down parallel to target  between toes and ball then you can check over the hip line and the  shoulder line at set-up so it's not a ways off


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## KJT123 (Aug 26, 2016)

Thanks all for replies.

So frustrating. Been practicing earlier and keep looking back at swings on video and every single time I am "flipping". The more I try to get hands ahead at impact, the more my hips tend to slide towards the target. When trying to rotate my hips instead of slide, I just hit fat shots, and by fat, I mean a good 6 inches behind the ball, I'd be surprised if the clubhead actually touched the ball it's that bad.

Annoying thing is I have been playing really good lately, and I have been striking my irons great. I just know there is a fault in my swing and that's probably preventing me from taking my game to the next level.


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## bobmac (Aug 27, 2016)

KJT123 said:



*Annoying thing is I have been playing really good lately, and I have been striking my irons great.* I just know there is a fault in my swing and that's probably preventing me from taking my game to the next level.
		
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If I were you I'd leave well alone.
Take a look at the rest of your game and see what you can improve


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 27, 2016)

KJT123 said:



			Thanks all for replies.

So frustrating. Been practicing earlier and keep looking back at swings on video and every single time I am "flipping". The more I try to get hands ahead at impact, the more my hips tend to slide towards the target. When trying to rotate my hips instead of slide, I just hit fat shots, and by fat, I mean a good 6 inches behind the ball, I'd be surprised if the clubhead actually touched the ball it's that bad.

Annoying thing is I have been playing really good lately, and I have been striking my irons great. I just know there is a fault in my swing and that's probably preventing me from taking my game to the next level.
		
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Do you sometimes have too many swing thoughts?
What happens when you think about just hitting the back of the ball as hard as you can, then making sure you go through to a nice finsh?
(I talking on the range here, not on the course, god forbid)

Another image i was given which didn't work for me but did for him was of swinging an axe - you always keep all the power until impact with a axe. 

BTW, how good are you and how good do you want to be?


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 27, 2016)

The reason I ask is you look like you want to be pretty good. If so try this:
Go to AG. 
Pick up the three drivers you fancy.
Work out which one is the best fit for you.
Go to the cash point and get the cash out
Take it round to your pro and give it all to him / her for lessons.

Stupid comment I know, but a smidge of reality to it.
You won't need hour long lessons to work on it so you'll be able to build a really good long term relationship with him / her.
Then you can work on a proper long term solution suited to you AND you won't feel guilty picking their brain in between lessons, (also means they won't begrudge helping you.)

Just watching your swing again, it's a good 'un apart from that one problem so I reckon a long term fix will pay you dividends over the years.


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## bobmac (Aug 27, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			BTW, how good are you and how good do you want to be?
		
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He's off 13


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 27, 2016)

bobmac said:



			He's off 13
		
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But is that a peaked out at and happy with it...
Or a I want to be single figures in 6 months on my way down to cat 1??


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## KJT123 (Aug 27, 2016)

I'm off 13, I'd like to get it down to single figures. Best round is 4 over, I'd say my weakness is wedge play into the greens. Eg my 60 degree log wedge from the fairway maxes out at 65 yards, and often I just balloon it straight up because of the flipping problem I think, seems as though I'm adding loft at impact.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 27, 2016)

KJT123 said:



			I'm off 13, I'd like to get it down to single figures. Best round is 4 over, I'd say my weakness is wedge play into the greens. Eg my 60 degree log wedge from the fairway maxes out at 65 yards, and often I just balloon it straight up because of the flipping problem I think, seems as though I'm adding loft at impact.
		
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Work on the wedge play. Hitting a 60 degree from 65 yards is a risky option and if you can learn to play with different wedges and different trajectories it'll give you more options in different conditions and to different flag positions. I think nail that area and 13 will become much lower


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## bobmac (Aug 27, 2016)

As Homer said, improve your wedge play.

[video=youtube;rI7S5eHC1G0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI7S5eHC1G0[/video]


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## the_coach (Aug 27, 2016)

KJT123 said:



			I'm off 13, I'd like to get it down to single  figures. Best round is 4 over, I'd say my weakness is wedge play into  the greens. Eg my 60 degree log wedge from the fairway maxes out at 65  yards, and often I just balloon it straight up because of the flipping  problem I think, seems as though I'm adding loft at impact.
		
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remember with wedges folks shouldn't really be looking to max out  distances by working them flat out as that's a sure ways to have  accuracy problems
find what the comfortable what's 'feels' like 3/4  full swing motion distance is with each wedge that keeps tight  dispersion to target

60Âº 'full wedge shots' not that easy for  most folks because of the loft, plus with a flip action that's always  goin to add more loft once you got reasonable control of the flip  release to not skull them - if a comfortable swing with the 60Âº only  nets you 50 yards with accuracy then past that use the other wedges -  goin in all the ways in the 'air' and high flight isn't either the most  consistent of ways to get results as that demands a high degree of skill

whilst  for sure everyone can improve their wedge short games, putting first  off you gotta really identify where the weakest points in the game is - folks often cite putting woes and chipping pitching woes which although maybes are an issue they have become more of an issue because of the pressure the rest of the game is piling on those areas but as they always near the 'end' of a hole they become overtime foremost in the mind as the issue but having to come into the green on the wrong angle or from rough or both as well as from too far out is what's really behind a lot of the problems in the game

often  times in the area of skill levels above Cat 1 from mid index 14 through  8/7/6 although folks can always improve the short game it's not always  the case that is where the biggest area of opportunity lies for game  improvement for everyon - so that's something you gotta analyze as to  where the recurring biggest weak points lay

if got a good head  for math so pretty numerate and of a mind to look at this kind of stuff  get hold of 'every shot counts' by mark broadie which goes into depth at  what I'm speaking to here

as often times from say approx 14  index down see folks who probably get most improvement in the game by  improving the quality of strike (as already said that's not meaning  folks should not look to have short game improvements) - but then get a  much better handle on distance control, better ways ball starting  direction and better trajectory to hold line in the areas from say 140  to 200 yards - and that improvement to strike often most sits in sequence, rhythm  and balance improvement in the swing motion itself

[video=youtube;VB3XrNneyhM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB3XrNneyhM[/video]


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2016)

the_coach said:



			as often times from say approx 14  index down see folks who probably get most improvement in the game by  improving the quality of strike (as already said that's not meaning  folks should not look to have short game improvements) - but then get a  much better handle on distance control,* better ways ball starting  direction and better trajectory to hold line in the areas from say 140  to 200 yards -* *and that improvement to strike often most sits in sequence, rhythm  and balance improvement in the swing motion itself*
]
		
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Why would he want to work on his iron play?



			''Annoying thing is I have been playing really good lately, and I have been striking my irons great.''
		
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If something isnt broken, dont fix it.




			whilst  for sure everyone can improve their wedge short games, putting  first  off you gotta really identify where the weakest points in the  game is
		
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He has identified his weakness




			I'd say my weakness is wedge play into the greens.
		
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My advice would be to leave your irons alone and work on the clockface drill I linked to above.
That will save you more than enough shots to get you to single figures.
Good luck


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## KJT123 (Aug 28, 2016)

thanks all


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2016)

think itâ€™s worth considering the whole game results fully and monitoring shots taken in each area of the game when folks are looking to improve their game performance under competition which is where folks will see improvement tangibly in their index, itâ€™s the Opâ€™s desire is to do this and improve from 13

so would consider it well worth retaking a good hard look to really confirm the current â€˜thoughtsâ€™ on the weakest areas of the games are really what;s going on, so is it really the wedge game & that only - my experience would lead me to think thatâ€™s not necessarily the whole picture

as said in the previous post (a part not re-quoted) - often times I see folks thinking the whole issue to total game improvement in terms of scores lie largely in short game areas (as said earlier everyone can and should look to practice and improve their short games) but often times itâ€™s the extra pressure the rest of the game is putting on the short game - thatâ€™s something I see many times - so passing on the advice to the OP to consider this and recheck all game stats - the advice can be taken on board by the OP or not

but often times folks can have â€˜feelingsâ€™ around where the weakest parts of the game lay without taking a real close quantifiable view of all the results of shot outcomes through the whole game tee to green, through all competition rounds played when folks are playing under most pressure

so would look to gather some real stats of the performance of area between 140 -200 to see for sure whether that might well be a bigger issue than is being perceived - again OPâ€™s choice to do so or not

so far the identification is a feeling of â€˜wrists problemâ€™ but thatâ€™s not a â€˜causationâ€™ of the motion issue, not the root cause, and then the wedge play particularly one distance with one club where the issue is non wanted added height to the shots - a relook into course management and shot choice would probably pay good dividends here too

if the OP hit and has been on a plateau of performance under marking a card that means the level has been a steady  index 13 for some time could well be that a general fairly tidy short game is already part of the reason the scores donâ€™t go up

so my take would really consider if the desire is to really improve the standard of competition scoring, and improvement to the index would come free with that, then to leave things alone, exactly as they are, and just llokingat the short game might not be the best ways to go about that

especially if folks looking to improve competition scoring at a consistent level of improvement to cut a 13 index by more than half to get into Cat 1 
- folks as a given should always look to improve the short game at whatever level they at - & as the shortest swing lengths with the slowest body & arm motion itâ€™s a more accessible area of the game for folks to improve whatever the level of fitness or whatever their physicalityâ€™s


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