# WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)



## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

Trying to centralise issues that are arising for HC Secs and administrators.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

V1 Beta addition is now out there for those using club systems although not much data on board yet.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

*Problem uploading Date of Birth and Email Addresses to WHS Platform (England and Wales)*
 Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:53 pm

It has come to our attention that a change was made by DotGolf to the England Golf/Wales Golf WHS Platform last night that disrupts HandicapMaster accessing club membership lists from the WHS server.

We were not advised that DotGolf were planning these late changes to the WHS system and were therefore unable to pre-plan for this with our software release last week.

We are sorry that their WHS system change has rendered the facility in HandicapMaster mostly inoperable.

We have reported the problem to DotGolf (and England Golf and Wales Golf) and are awaiting a response.

HandicapMaster Ltd.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Problem uploading Date of Birth and Email Addresses to WHS Platform (England and Wales)*
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:53 pm

It has come to our attention that a change was made by DotGolf to the England Golf/Wales Golf WHS Platform last night that disrupts HandicapMaster accessing club membership lists from the WHS server.

We were not advised that DotGolf were planning these late changes to the WHS system and were therefore unable to pre-plan for this with our software release last week.

We are sorry that their WHS system change has rendered the facility in HandicapMaster mostly inoperable.

We have reported the problem to DotGolf (and England Golf and Wales Golf) and are awaiting a response.

HandicapMaster Ltd.
		
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Is it just Handicap Master affected as V1 seems ok, although I am having members trying to register but it failing on the verification number stage.


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## upsidedown (Oct 22, 2020)

On V1 ,talked to our HS and appears ours have been sent but no members have received  emails yet


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			On V1 ,talked to our HS and appears ours have been sent but no members have received  emails yet
		
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Will members receive e-mails directly from England Golf? After receiving the e-mail from England Golf today (as I'm a Handicap Sec), I was under the impression it was up to me to inform all members, but only after their e-mail addresses and DOB were in the WHS Portal. They stated: "Please ensure that members' email addresses and dates of birth have been uploaded to the WHS Golf Club Platform BEFORE directing golfers to the My England Golf service."

Club V1 said they'd send this personal data to WHS later this week, after we sent a request today. So, I'm awaiting this to happen, then I'll send out the e-mail. I've had several golfers chasing me today asking about it, although many were anticipating they'd get access from Monday 19th October. Thankfully, about 80 of them are on a club whatsapp group, so was able to send a msg to that to keep them quickly informed.


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

Using Handicapmaster.

I moved heaven and earth 3 weeks ago to feed DOBs and email addresses into the system I assumed these were transmitted to the WHS Portal as my members started receiving emails today, so, with the Handicapmaster email I received today, I really don't know where we stand.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

We seem to have a mix of some members receiving emails from EG and others still waiting. Some who are trying to log on get a CDH not recognised. What we need is an EG rep and someone from all the ISVs on the thread


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2020)

Still no response from EG for a Plan B for members who have no email or internet capability and have no reason (golf shouldn't be one) to change.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 23, 2020)

For new members who have just submitted 3 cards but no qualifiers - are you going to post the cards as supplementaries on the platform?


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For new members who have just submitted 3 cards but no qualifiers - are you going to post the cards as supplementaries on the platform?
		
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I think, hope it works, after 2 Nov I will look at other members with the same handicap pre changeover and then allocate them a corresponding index.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For new members who have just submitted 3 cards but no qualifiers - are you going to post the cards as supplementaries on the platform?
		
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That is my plan, yes.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

Well, I've finally come across a player who has been effected by the Hard Cap, after he couldn't work out why his initial Index was so low. Probably worth mentioning, in case you come across a member who is asking the same question. My initial instinct was to check his score differentials and confirm that all was OK, until it appeared odd that it looked like his handicap should be higher. Only then did the Low Index Value spring to my attention, and then I realised this chap had submitted loads of cards since lockdown, but his scoring in 2019 was better.


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## upsidedown (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Will members receive e-mails directly from England Golf? After receiving the e-mail from England Golf today (as I'm a Handicap Sec), I was under the impression it was up to me to inform all members, but only after their e-mail addresses and DOB were in the WHS Portal. They stated: "Please ensure that members' email addresses and dates of birth have been uploaded to the WHS Golf Club Platform BEFORE directing golfers to the My England Golf service."

Club V1 said they'd send this personal data to WHS later this week, after we sent a request today. So, I'm awaiting this to happen, then I'll send out the e-mail. I've had several golfers chasing me today asking about it, although many were anticipating they'd get access from Monday 19th October. Thankfully, about 80 of them are on a club whatsapp group, so was able to send a msg to that to keep them quickly informed.
		
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Was with our HS and he showed me the WHS portal.still no sign of emails or DOB's , we're Club V1


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Was with our HS and he showed me the WHS portal.still no sign of emails or DOB's , we're Club V1
		
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Has your club authorised the guys from ClubV1 to send this data to WHS? They will not do so unless instructed by the club. We asked yesterday, so hoping it will be done shortly (but not done yet). I manually types this data in for Committee members, so they could get an initial feel for the WHS Portal before all other members get access. Thankfully, it worked for them when registering.


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## upsidedown (Oct 23, 2020)

I believe it was done about 10 days ago.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			I believe it was done about 10 days ago.
		
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That's a pretty long delay. When our owner asked them yesterday, they said they'd have it done by the end of the week (I was hoping that meant by today, or at least Sunday). But, I won't get my hopes up.


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## upsidedown (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That's a pretty long delay. When our owner asked them yesterday, they said they'd have it done by the end of the week (I was hoping that meant by today, or at least Sunday). But, I won't get my hopes up.
		
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Good luck and yes will give them a nudge 👍


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## rosecott (Oct 23, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Good luck and yes will give them a nudge 👍
		
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Handicapmaster has now resolved the issue with WHS, updated their software, and the DOBs and email addresses of my members are now on the WHS Portal.


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Handicapmaster has now resolved the issue with WHS, updated their software, and the DOBs and email addresses of my members are now on the WHS Portal.
		
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*Re: Problem uploading Date of Birth and Email Addresses to WHS Platform (England and Wales)*
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:14 pm

We have released a program update (9.3.47) that changes HandicapMaster's facility for England and Wales clubs to publish Date of Birth and E-mail addresses of their members to their National Union's WHS Servers.

The change brings HandicapMaster in line with the change unexpectedly made by the Golf Unions to their WHS server yesterday, enabling this facility to be operational again.

HandicapMaster Ltd.


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2020)

Any feedback on members getting the link to register and any problems with the activation code receiving/waiting for and not working would be appreciated.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Any feedback on members getting the link to register and any problems with the activation code receiving/waiting for and not working would be appreciated.
		
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After manually entering e-mail addresses for Committee members last night, they were able to register. Some had to wait an hour or 2 to get the activation code e-mailed to them, others straight in.

Also, got an e-mail from the Seniors Competition Secretary tonight. He said he was struggling to get into Club V1 as it kept freezing. Then, when he was in the log in screen, there was a message saying Clubs can now access the WHS Compatible version of Club V1. Anybody tried this, and do you think it could now be used to set up comps after 2nd November?


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			After manually entering e-mail addresses for Committee members last night, they were able to register. Some had to wait an hour or 2 to get the activation code e-mailed to them, others straight in.

Also, got an e-mail from the Seniors Competition Secretary tonight. He said he was struggling to get into Club V1 as it kept freezing. Then, when he was in the log in screen, there was a message saying Clubs can now access the WHS Compatible version of Club V1. Anybody tried this, and do you think it could now be used to set up comps after 2nd November?
		
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Thanks. I have been in the beta version yesterday and I would stay clear of entering anything until 2 Nov as there is very little data in their including courses with slope. I presume some fill in the info on the original V1 ready for data transfer?


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2020)

Just had a look and now courses are in but it does look like things are implemented daily so still stay clear or use chat tomorrow and ask.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			After manually entering e-mail addresses for Committee members last night, they were able to register. Some had to wait an hour or 2 to get the activation code e-mailed to them, others straight in.

?
		
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We had this issue, our Handicap Secretary didnt get the activation code for several hours....I'm guessing that the system was well overloaded with registration attempts.

My concern is what happens on the first Saturday/Sunday when clubs have competitions and they all try to report their scores at midnight back to the WHS....I've a feeling we may see some issues (or at least wake up to some issues!!)


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			My concern is what happens on the first Saturday/Sunday when clubs have competitions and they all try to report their scores at midnight back to the WHS....I've a feeling we may see some issues (or at least wake up to some issues!!)
		
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I bought this up with those at EG working on the WHS 2 years ago and they assured the assembled masses that they would have the capacity. Yesterday has given me doubts.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 23, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Handicapmaster has now resolved the issue with WHS, updated their software, and the DOBs and email addresses of my members are now on the WHS Portal.
		
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Interesting...I just tried to use the new feature in HM where you can "force send" the personal data and it hasnt worked.

Scrub that...my bad....we use the cloud edition and I mentally assumed that the software update would have been automatically applied....but of course we still have to run a front end client on a local PC...and it was that that needed updating. Works fine.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Then, when he was in the log in screen, there was a message saying Clubs can now access the WHS Compatible version of Club V1. Anybody tried this, and do you think it could now be used to set up comps after 2nd November?
		
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I had a look and it was pretty much the same as the previous version with a few different fields. Our competitions people looked at the templates and didn't see any problems loading the winter stuff up when live.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I bought this up with those at EG working on the WHS 2 years ago and they assured the assembled masses that they would have the capacity. Yesterday has given me doubts.
		
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They assured us of lots of things...


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Any feedback on members getting the link to register and any problems with the activation code receiving/waiting for and not working would be appreciated.
		
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Most people seem to be able to get in eventually. I can tell this by the number of people saying their HI is wrong as their October scores are missing!


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2020)

1.  Can someone tell me where you can see DOB data on any of the reports on the dashboard, after all the fuss I'm not sure how relevant they were.

2. Setting up 9 hole courses for Q.  Do we still go through EG for a Slope and CR or have I missed something in the WHS procedure's doc.


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## upsidedown (Oct 24, 2020)

Updated overnight so have now been able to register and view


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## rosecott (Oct 24, 2020)

Several of my members have reported that their DOBs were wrong by one day. Had a quick look and it is pretty random. About half were one day different to the correct ones transferred by our ISV.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



1.  Can someone tell me where you can see DOB data on any of the reports on the dashboard, after all the fuss I'm not sure how relevant they were.

2. Setting up 9 hole courses for Q.  Do we still go through EG for a Slope and CR or have I missed something in the WHS procedure's doc.
		
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We did but I think each 9 is assessed so you could setup on the 9 hole course on your club software and the EG Platform to allow it to be chosen in a comp.


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We did but I think each 9 is assessed so you could setup on the 9 hole course on your club software and the EG Platform to allow it to be chosen in a comp.
		
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Thanks, someone previously has set up so many 9 holes that I’m thinking of getting Club Systems if they can hide them off our system as deleting them is an option.


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2020)

Just finished a couple of hours I will never get back. Member trying to register but keeps failing on his CDH number unfortunately his CDH on his county card and his actual number are different.


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## rulefan (Oct 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



1.  Can someone tell me where you can see DOB data on any of the reports on the dashboard, after all the fuss I'm not sure how relevant they were.

2. Setting up 9 hole courses for Q.  Do we still go through EG for a Slope and CR or have I missed something in the WHS procedure's doc.
		
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Your club will have been advised of the front and back 9 hole info for every rated set of tees. They were assigned automatically from the 18 hole rating data
But see here
https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup


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## nickjdavis (Oct 24, 2020)

It appears to me that there is no requirement for clubs to send players dates of birth to the WHS system...it doesn't actually stop anything from happening in terms of registration.

Players are seemingly able to register on the WHS without it knowing in advance their date of birth....as part of the registration process, players are asked for their date of birth. This means that a club could choose not to send dates of birth, but allow players their own choice as to whether they provide their real date of birth when registering,  or an alternative or dummy date of birth. I guess the only issue with players providing an alternative DoB would come if ever the system was used to verify a players eligibility for a competition that has "age categories"....but then I guess you don't have to go as extreme as making yourself 20 years younger...only neds to be a couple of days out.


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## rulefan (Oct 24, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Players are seemingly able to register on the WHS without it knowing in advance their date of birth.
		
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I didn't know my date of birth in advance. My mother told me some years later


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Your club will have been advised of the front and back 9 hole info for every rated set of tees. They were assigned automatically from the 18 hole rating data
But see here
https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup

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Thanks for that, I presume under the WHS there is no need for a separate index for 9 hole comps unlike the separate HCs used previously?


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2020)

Has anyone spotted a report on the dashboard that you can run to show members who haven’t register?


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## rulefan (Oct 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Has anyone spotted a report on the dashboard that you can run to show members who haven’t register?
		
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Which website are you looking at?


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Which website are you looking at?
		
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On the administrators dashboard


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## rulefan (Oct 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			On the administrators dashboard
		
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of the WHS platform?


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## jim8flog (Oct 24, 2020)

DoB

The profile page on England Golf makes it easy to change it.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Thanks, someone previously has set up so many 9 holes that I’m thinking of getting Club Systems if they can hide them off our system as deleting them is an option.
		
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I think you can do it yourself as long as scores havn't been lodged against them.


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## Old Skier (Oct 25, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think you can do it yourself as long as scores havn't been lodged against them.
		
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I know I can hide them from those who set up comps but i want it so they are hidden from complete view so if i ever get to hand this over there is no confusion


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Trying to find Rushmore Parks Dorset slope, cont find it on DB, is this me and a fat finger moment? @rulefan


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## yandabrown (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Trying to find Rushmore Parks Dorset slope, cont find it on DB, is this me and a fat finger moment? @rulefan

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This one https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=20422 ?

White    M    71    70.6    94.8    130    35.9 / 132    34.7 / 128
Yellow    M    71    68.3    91.4    125    34.7 / 128    33.6 / 121
Red 2019    F    72    71.8    101.4    126    36.1 / 129    35.7 / 122


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Does anyone know, if you have away players at your club, do they still need to register at their away club?


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Trying to find Rushmore Parks Dorset slope, cont find it on DB, is this me and a fat finger moment? @rulefan

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They might be in Wiltshire this year!


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Does anyone know, if you have away players at your club, do they still need to register at their away club?
		
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They will is they want to play in comps at their away club I guess.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			They might be in Wiltshire this year!
		
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Never trust a member to know what county he’s in, like Yeovil it straddles both counties has 9 holes in each appardently.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			They will is they want to play in comps at their away club I guess.
		
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But I was wondering how relevant it is as we can’t do any handicap work on their acc.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

We gave Club V1 permission to send member e-mail addresses to WHS last week. Sadly, this has still not been done. 1 week to go, and our members are still very much in the dark. 

I'll let the competition secretary and his team worry about setting up competitions post 2nd November, and how things may be different to now. But, I do have concerns about supplementary scores. I'm getting quite a few each week, in which members e-mail me to pre-register, and then e-mail me a photo of their scorecard afterwards, for me to enter into the system. New members are still coming out of the woodwork, and asking how to go about submitting supplementary scores. Truth is, come next week, I literally have no idea how this process may change. Will howdidido allow them to do all of this automatically? One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no chance that they can finish the round and ask someone at the club to do it for them. We've also had the PSI turned off since Covid (although, when we did have it on, one day the option to enter Supplementary Scores mysteriously vanished.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			We gave Club V1 permission to send member e-mail addresses to WHS last week. Sadly, this has still not been done. 1 week to go, and our members are still very much in the dark.

I'll let the competition secretary and his team worry about setting up competitions post 2nd November, and how things may be different to now. But, I do have concerns about supplementary scores. I'm getting quite a few each week, in which members e-mail me to pre-register, and then e-mail me a photo of their scorecard afterwards, for me to enter into the system. New members are still coming out of the woodwork, and asking how to go about submitting supplementary scores. Truth is, come next week, I literally have no idea how this process may change. Will howdidido allow them to do all of this automatically? One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no chance that they can finish the round and ask someone at the club to do it for them. We've also had the PSI turned off since Covid (although, when we did have it on, one day the option to enter Supplementary Scores mysteriously vanished.
		
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@Swango1980 I’m V1

Can you see your members on the dashboard?

Supplemetary cards - I have just gone on HDID both on iPad and smartphone and have been able to sign in for a supplementary card.

I am going in tomorrow and I am the only person at present allowed to use the PSI, I’ll check on there to see if the option is still there although I appreciate that members won’t be able to use it.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@Swango1980 I’m V1

Can you see your members on the dashboard?

Supplemetary cards - I have just gone on HDID both on iPad and smartphone and have been able to sign in for a supplementary card.

I am going in tomorrow and I am the only person at present allowed to use the PSI, I’ll check on there to see if the option is still there although I appreciate that members won’t be able to use it.
		
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Thanks.

Just to clarify regarding "dashboard", are you referencing ClubV1 or WHS Portal (apologies for confusion). Club V1 seems to be just as normal. In terms of the WHS Portal, I can search all members, but only their names appear in "Basic" tab. No e-mail addresses or DOB. I've also tried to register as all other members would have to, but I cannot get in as it tells me my e-mail address is not in the system (I'm just doing this to double check I'm not missing anything, when I can log in I know members can also).

Thanks about the Supp Score info. What menu do you use. When I log into the Todays Golf menu, and click Sign In, it just says there are no competitions to sign into. Is this where I should be able to sign in to a Supp Score? If so, I guess it may have something to do with a Club V1 setting?


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Thanks.

Just to clarify regarding "dashboard", are you referencing ClubV1 or WHS Portal (apologies for confusion). Club V1 seems to be just as normal. In terms of the WHS Portal, I can search all members, but only their names appear in "Basic" tab. No e-mail addresses or DOB. I've also tried to register as all other members would have to, but I cannot get in as it tells me my e-mail address is not in the system (I'm just doing this to double check I'm not missing anything, when I can log in I know members can also).

Thanks about the Supp Score info. What menu do you use. When I log into the Todays Golf menu, and click Sign In, it just says there are no competitions to sign into. Is this where I should be able to sign in to a Supp Score? If so, I guess it may have something to do with a Club V1 setting?
		
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@Swango1980

Permissions must be set up on V1

Sup scores on HDID

Go to today’s golf
Sign In
You should then see supplementary scores box - click on it and proceed filling in.

WHS Portal dashboard - I think you might find you can register (only think) have you/anyone tried.


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## IanMcC (Oct 26, 2020)

I don’t think the data dump on 1st/2nd November will resolve all of the issues. I have received multiple enquiries from members saying that rounds are missing from their records. When you compare the ClubV1 playing record to the Clubhouse WHS portal, that seems to be the case. But when you compare the GolfBox Player Handicap Report, which Wales Golf currently use for full Member Handicap Reports, some rounds are missing from there also. I include 3 screenshots for my record. Notice the round played on 20/9/20, 1st Presidents Cup. That round is on my ClubV1 history, but not on my GolfBox Handicap Report. It looks like the data dump has been taken from GolfBox, and not ClubV1. If that is the case, the missing rounds will never be added. A quick look on the database and almost every player at my club has rounds missing.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I don’t think the data dump on 1st/2nd November will resolve all of the issues. I have received multiple enquiries from members saying that rounds are missing from their records. When you compare the ClubV1 playing record to the Clubhouse WHS portal, that seems to be the case. But when you compare the GolfBox Player Handicap Report, which Wales Golf currently use for full Member Handicap Reports, some rounds are missing from there also. I include 3 screenshots for my record. Notice the round played on 20/9/20, 1st Presidents Cup. That round is on my ClubV1 history, but not on my GolfBox Handicap Report. It looks like the data dump has been taken from GolfBox, and not ClubV1. If that is the case, the missing rounds will never be added. A quick look on the database and almost every player at my club has rounds missing.
		
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Has the club notified whs.support@englandgolf.org


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Trying to find Rushmore Parks Dorset slope, cont find it on DB, is this me and a fat finger moment? @rulefan

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Try Rushmore without the 'Parks'


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## IanMcC (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Has the club notified whs.support@englandgolf.org

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We are Wales golf. I reckon they have enough on their plate right now. If the data dump doesnt fix things i will hit them with a barrowload of missing entries. Does anyone else witness this phenomenon?


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I don’t think the data dump on 1st/2nd November will resolve all of the issues. I have received multiple enquiries from members saying that rounds are missing from their records. When you compare the ClubV1 playing record to the Clubhouse WHS portal, that seems to be the case. But when you compare the GolfBox Player Handicap Report, which Wales Golf currently use for full Member Handicap Reports, some rounds are missing from there also. I include 3 screenshots for my record. Notice the round played on 20/9/20, 1st Presidents Cup. That round is on my ClubV1 history, but not on my GolfBox Handicap Report. It looks like the data dump has been taken from GolfBox, and not ClubV1. If that is the case, the missing rounds will never be added. A quick look on the database and almost every player at my club has rounds missing.
		
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The England data was taken from the England CDH not from any of the ISVs
I assume GolfBox is the Wales equivalent. In that case, that is where the data would have come from.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@Swango1980

Permissions must be set up on V1

Sup scores on HDID

Go to today’s golf
Sign In
You should then see supplementary scores box - click on it and proceed filling in.

WHS Portal dashboard - I think you might find you can register (only think) have you/anyone tried.
		
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Thanks. I think I may need the Owner to set up those permissions, as I do not get those Supplementary Card options. And, I cannot find them on Club V1 settings, but there is quite a lot that is hidden from our handicaps account.

On WHS Portal, I manually typed in the e-mail address and DOB for all other Committee members. They have therefore been able to fully register. However, no other member has. I could manually type all the details for 251 members with handicaps. However, this would take absolutely ages (especially as DOB and email address are not on same screen on Club V1), and no doubt if I spend all this time doing this, Club V1 would have imported all these details as soon as I've finished.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Thanks. I think I may need the Owner to set up those permissions, as I do not get those Supplementary Card options. And, I cannot find them on Club V1 settings, but there is quite a lot that is hidden from our handicaps account.

On WHS Portal, I manually typed in the e-mail address and DOB for all other Committee members. They have therefore been able to fully register. However, no other member has. I could manually type all the details for 251 members with handicaps. However, this would take absolutely ages (especially as DOB and email address are not on same screen on Club V1), and no doubt if I spend all this time doing this, Club V1 would have imported all these details as soon as I've finished.
		
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Personally I would get someone you haven't manually entered data for just to try and see what happens.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Latest off the V1 notice board

All members that were opted-in to send their personal information (email address and date of birth etc.) to their local golf unions’ central server, by default or by choice, have now had their personal information successfully transmitted to the English and Welsh server.

We are aware that hidden members (resigned and deceased etc.) are appearing on the WHS platform. However, we have only uploaded records that WHS have given us information for, which means that these hidden members already existed in the CDH. Our Development Team are currently investigating the possibility of hiding members in hidden categories from the WHS platform.


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## fenwayrich (Oct 26, 2020)

We have a player who has just returned from working in Dubai, and has been a member here for the last five years, the last two being as an Country member. The majority of his last 20 scores, all this year, have been on courses in Dubai under competition conditions. He has forwarded all the details including slopes, CR etc for each round, and his handicap index of 1.1. Since returning he has played a few rounds at our Club. He is no longer a member of a club in Dubai.

Do the foreign scores have to be submitted to the people implementing the new system here for his handicap index to be created before 2nd November?

We also have a new member who has moved from the States, again with full recent handicap record there and an index of 6.1. He has never been a member of a club in England. Can his handicap be allocated based on the US scores?


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			We have a player who has just returned from working in Dubai, and has been a member here for the last five years, the last two being as an Country member. The majority of his last 20 scores, all this year, have been on courses in Dubai under competition conditions. He has forwarded all the details including slopes, CR etc for each round, and his handicap index of 1.1. Since returning he has played a few rounds at our Club. He is no longer a member of a club in Dubai.

Do the foreign scores have to be submitted to the people implementing the new system here for his handicap index to be created before 2nd November?

We also have a new member who has moved from the States, again with full recent handicap record there and an index of 6.1. He has never been a member of a club in England. Can his handicap be allocated based on the US scores?
		
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Scores outside the UK couldn’t be used until after 2 Nov is my understanding as we are not members of the WHS until then


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## rosecott (Oct 26, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			We have a player who has just returned from working in Dubai, and has been a member here for the last five years, the last two being as an Country member. The majority of his last 20 scores, all this year, have been on courses in Dubai under competition conditions. He has forwarded all the details including slopes, CR etc for each round, and his handicap index of 1.1. Since returning he has played a few rounds at our Club. He is no longer a member of a club in Dubai.

Do the foreign scores have to be submitted to the people implementing the new system here for his handicap index to be created before 2nd November?

We also have a new member who has moved from the States, again with full recent handicap record there and an index of 6.1. He has never been a member of a club in England. Can his handicap be allocated based on the US scores?
		
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Not much time left but, if 3 initial cards are submitted under UHS, then they can be allocated handicaps taking their previous handicaps - under a different system - into account. If the one from Dubai were to be allocated Cat 1, you would still have to get county authority.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Personally I would get someone you haven't manually entered data for just to try and see what happens.
		
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I did. I didn't manually enter data for myself. So, I keep trying to register just like any other member, knowing that if I can get in, so can they. Sadly, this still confirms the e-mail addresses are not present.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I did. I didn't manually enter data for myself. So, I keep trying to register just like any other member, knowing that if I can get in, so can they. Sadly, this still confirms the e-mail addresses are not present.
		
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Strange this now, especially after the info posted on V1 (Post #66)


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Strange this now, especially after the info posted on V1 (Post #66)
		
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Unless the club sec has not updated V1/HDID


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Unless the club sec has not updated V1/HDID
		
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But @Swango1980 says that his club have responded.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			But @Swango1980 says that his club have responded.
		
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I suppose I should clarify. I message the Owner of my Club to say that we need to authorise the guys at Club V1 to send member e-mail addresses and DOB to WHS. He messaged me back on Thursday to say he had spoken to them, and it will all be transferred before the end of the week. However, was this the correct method of communication?

If there was a more official, technical way of doing this, I personally have not heard about it. How else do you "opt in"? There are that many England Golf e-mails flying around, I've not seen anything from Club Systems, but even there Pop Up ads do not seem to give much away.

I'm feeling like quitting this role of Handicap Secretary before WHS even begins, it is giving me a sore head.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I suppose I should clarify. I message the Owner of my Club to say that we need to authorise the guys at Club V1 to send member e-mail addresses and DOB to WHS. He messaged me back on Thursday to say he had spoken to them, and it will all be transferred before the end of the week. However, was this the correct method of communication?

If there was a more official, technical way of doing this, I personally have not heard about it. How else do you "opt in"? There are that many England Golf e-mails flying around, I've not seen anything from Club Systems, but even there Pop Up ads do not seem to give much away.

I'm feeling like quitting this role of Handicap Secretary before WHS even begins, it is giving me a sore head.
		
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I think, but am not sure, there was an automated system on V1 to push which gave the authorisation to pass on the data. Seems like that may be the issue.

If you can access the basic V1 how about going on chat after 1000 hrs and seeing if they can advise.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think, but am not sure, there was an automated system on V1 to push which gave the authorisation to pass on the data. Seems like that may be the issue.

If you can access the basic V1 how about going on chat after 1000 hrs and seeing if they can advise.
		
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That must be the problem then. I guess the owners phone call was a waste of time then. If only they just told him to use the automated system. Mind you, it would not be unlike him to completely miss that point if it was made.

So, if clubs have never given permission, what happens on 2nd November? Will they send it all through anyway, or do we still need to ask?


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That must be the problem then. I guess the owners phone call was a waste of time then. If only they just told him to use the automated system. Mind you, it would not be unlike him to completely miss that point if it was made.

So, if clubs have never given permission, what happens on 2nd November? Will they send it all through anyway, or do we still need to ask?
		
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Personally I would speak to Club Systems soonest


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## nickjdavis (Oct 26, 2020)

Interesting....I've just noted that one of my scores is registered in the WHS as being played off the Yellow tees. We never play comps off the yellows.

Given that the data used comes from the existing CDH I decided to check how the score in question is registered in the CDH.

Now...the CDH doesn't show whether rounds are played off whites or yellows...only the SSS of the course being played (and the resulting CSS of the comp) is shown. The interesting thing about this comp was that we had some works going on that meant the course was shortened by more than 100 yards from its measured length....so we manually reduced the SSS of the comp from 69 (normal SSS for the white tees) to 68. Although the Yellow tees SSS is 67 I'm wondering if the WHS system has interpreted this round being played off the Yellows because the SSS was not 69?

So the light bulb went off that we had another comp where the SSS was reduced to 68, so I had a quick look at the WHS scoring record of a few players who played in that competition and the WHS thinks that those players also played off the yellow tees.


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## jim8flog (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Never trust a member to know what county he’s in, like Yeovil it straddles both counties has 9 holes in each appardently.
		
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Our 18 hole course is in Dorset and part of our 9 hole course is in Somerset.

We are in Dorset for Union purposes.


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Interesting....I've just noted that one of my scores is registered in the WHS as being played off the Yellow tees. We never play comps off the yellows.

Given that the data used comes from the existing CDH I decided to check how the score in question is registered in the CDH.

Now...the CDH doesn't show whether rounds are played off whites or yellows...only the SSS of the course being played (and the resulting CSS of the comp) is shown. The interesting thing about this comp was that we had some works going on that meant the course was shortened by more than 100 yards from its measured length....so we manually reduced the SSS of the comp from 69 (normal SSS for the white tees) to 68. Although the Yellow tees SSS is 67 I'm wondering if the WHS system has interpreted this round being played off the Yellows because the SSS was not 69?

So the light bulb went off that we had another comp where the SSS was reduced to 68, so I had a quick look at the WHS scoring record of a few players who played in that competition and the WHS thinks that those players also played off the yellow tees.
		
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I'm beginning to think this is one of the problems.  The transition software has to find a course. As the CDH hasn't got name to match it has to try something else and SSS probably seemed a good idea. If it still can't find a match what does it do? Another of these 'What if?' conditions not anticipated by the specifiers.
But doesn't answer the issue of all scores being allocated to the wrong tees.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Our 18 hole course is in Dorset and part of our 9 hole course is in Somerset.

We are in Dorset for Union purposes.
		
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I thought the first of the 18 holes is in Somerset.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm beginning to think this is one of the problems.  The transition software has to find a course. As the CDH hasn't got name to match it has to try something else and SSS probably seemed a good idea. If it still can't find a match what does it do? Another of these 'What if?' conditions not anticipated by the specifiers.
But doesn't answer the issue of all scores being allocated to the wrong tees.
		
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When the data is finalised this weekend...will the WHS still take the data from the CDH?...or would they take the data from the ISV packages directly? I'm guessing that the format of the data structure for a players handicap record/scoring history has to be a defined common format across all ISV's so they could take it directly (as they will have to do post November 2nd). Might be easier to identify the courses actually played from if that were the case.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That must be the problem then. I guess the owners phone call was a waste of time then. If only they just told him to use the automated system. Mind you, it would not be unlike him to completely miss that point if it was made.

So, if clubs have never given permission, what happens on 2nd November? Will they send it all through anyway, or do we still need to ask?
		
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While your at it you best check that the club admin have added CR and Slope to the various course set ups on the system.


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			When the data is finalised this weekend...will the WHS still take the data from the CDH?...or would they take the data from the ISV packages directly? I'm guessing that the format of the data structure for a players handicap record/scoring history has to be a defined common format across all ISV's so they could take it directly (as they will have to do post November 2nd). Might be easier to identify the courses actually played from if that were the case.
		
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No. The data is taken from the CDH. It wouldn't help much anyway. The names on the ISV file may not correspond exactly with the name in Course data in the EG Ratings file. The ISV files do not have any slope information. Further they would have to rewrite the transition software completely to take the new files and the ISVs would have to write new software to upload the data. Further again, the ISV systems have no mandated requirement to hold data back to 2018.


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I thought the first of the 18 holes is in Somerset.
		
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 On the first on the 9 hole (assuming a correctly struck shot) you tee off in Dorset and the ball lands in Somerset!


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## nickjdavis (Oct 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			No. The data is taken from the CDH. It wouldn't help much anyway. The names on the ISV file may not correspond exactly with the name in Course data in the EG Ratings file. The ISV files do not have any slope information. Further they would have to rewrite the transition software completely to take the new files and the ISVs would have to write new software to upload the data. Further again, the ISV systems have no mandated requirement to hold data back to 2018.
		
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That's fair enough but one thing....aren't the ISV's are going to have to rewrite the software so that future post Nov 2nd rounds get uploaded to the WHS anyway? Also the ISV files may not have slope information but they do have an accurate record of what course the round was played over...simple merging of the two sets of data to create a WHS score isn't (sorry....shouldn't be!!!) difficult.

Didn't know that they weren't mandated to hold data back until 2018....we've got records going back 10 years on our ISV platform and thought that most systems would be the same.

Ahh welll....it is what it is and I only hope that in fixing some of the existing issues (assuming they do fix them) they don't create a whole new raft of issues. Looking at our clubs data, with the exception of initial cards for handicap not being accounted for and a couple of comps wrongly interpreted to have been played off the yellow tees...I cant actually see any other issues!!!


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			That's fair enough but one thing....aren't the ISV's are going to have to rewrite the software so that future post Nov 2nd rounds get uploaded to the WHS anyway? Also the ISV files may not have slope information but they do have an accurate record of what course the round was played over...simple merging of the two sets of data to create a WHS score isn't (sorry....shouldn't be!!!) difficult.

Didn't know that they weren't mandated to hold data back until 2018....we've got records going back 10 years on our ISV platform and thought that most systems would be the same.

Ahh welll....it is what it is and I only hope that in fixing some of the existing issues (assuming they do fix them) they don't create a whole new raft of issues. Looking at our clubs data, with the exception of initial cards for handicap not being accounted for and a couple of comps wrongly interpreted to have been played off the yellow tees...I cant actually see any other issues!!!
		
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The new ISV software is only designed to transmit newly posted returns including hole by hole scores. Quite different to the data transmitted to the CDH. All the calculations are done in the WHS not in the ISV's system.

Clubs can delete historic data when they want. CONGU used to require physical cards to be kept for two years but I don't know if or when that stopped. With the introduction of the CDH I guess.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 27, 2020)

So, I phoned Club Systems. Despite our owner verbally authorising transfer of emails, they said that their was a pop up that appeared, and our staff must have selected opt out. I don't get to see this as handicap sec, as I am not an administrator. So, all happened without my knowledge. Have asked for them to send pop up again, but no they have no idea when they will resend this data. 

So, in meantime I will start manually entering details for all 251 members, as I'm getting more and more hassle with frustrated and angry golfers. That is my evenings gone for the rest of the week. And next week I have the Review to look forward to


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 27, 2020)

The upload happened for our data in the last couple of days from Club V1 to the EG Platform.

Having sorted out the platform data to be correct I was annoyed to see the upload had generated 30+ records in the platform of members how had left or resigned so we were back to square 1.1!.

Another couple of hours spent updating the platform to get back to the place we were before the update. This is getting really old!

I hope the final transition on Sunday doesn't cause too many more problems as I am rapidly loosing the will to live.


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The upload happened for our data in the last couple of days from Club V1 to the EG Platform.

Having sorted out the platform data to be correct I was annoyed to see the upload had generated 30+ records in the platform of members how had left or resigned so we were back to square 1.1!.

Another couple of hours spent updating the platform to get back to the place we were before the update. This is getting really old!

I hope the final transition on Sunday doesn't cause too many more problems as I am rapidly loosing the will to live.
		
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Similar issues but now have decided that I’m leaving it all alone until after 2 Nov and have agreed with the sections a no qualifier policy until everyone is happy (who needs to be happy- the handicap committee) other than registering members who have no email address/access to broadband.


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The upload happened for our data in the last couple of days from Club V1 to the EG Platform.
		
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Just what data was that?


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

I have spotted a problem that I thought might occur.

Our 18 hole course has two pars and two SSSs for a standard and a short (bad weather) course.

They have been allocated different course and slope ratings.

All of my scores have been set for the WHS using the the standard courseand sloe rating despite quite a few last winter being played on the short course.

This may be down to the fact that we call the short course exactly that but the database has called it 'alternate course'.

Does any body now if there is going to be a retrospective change to the scores for CSS as this will correct the problem?

Or will we have to manually correct the scores to the correct course?


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Just what data was that?
		
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I believe email address and Dob mainly but there was obviously some sort of reconciliation and where the person as not found on the EG Platform (I assume using CDH# ) an additional record was generated. I assume there was something in the extraction which pulled members no longer visible on the Club V1 system.


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I assume there was something in the extraction which pulled members no longer visible on the Club V1 system.
		
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Yes, that seems to have been an issue.


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

New version of the Toolkit sent out TODAY with some new (but not important) information to be sent out to members by 27 Oct.

Seems we have someone running this project who really shouldn’t be there.


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I believe email address and Dob mainly but there was obviously some sort of reconciliation and where the person as not found on the EG Platform (I assume using CDH# ) an additional record was generated. I assume there was something in the extraction which pulled members no longer visible on the Club V1 system.
		
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On the V1 notices

We are aware that hidden members (resigned and deceased etc.) are appearing on the WHS platform. However, we have only uploaded records that WHS have given us information for, which means that these hidden members already existed in the CDH. Our Development Team are currently investigating the possibility of hiding members in hidden categories from the WHS platform.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 27, 2020)

Here is an interesting question, I think.

I am currently starting the arduous process of manually entering member e-mail addresses. I noticed I can do this for Away members. And then I randomly tried to search for a member who left years ago, and I can edit his details as well. I know this guy is not on our Club V1, and on the CDH database his only Club referenced is his current club, not ours. Should I really be able to edit the details of players at other clubs? That seems really dodgy.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

Just after midnight, and finally entered the e-mail addresses for all members, and their dates of birth. Started at 5pm and stopped for about 30 mins for dinner. If they somehow get erased, I will cry.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Just after midnight, and finally entered the e-mail addresses for all members, and their dates of birth. Started at 5pm and stopped for about 30 mins for dinner. If they somehow get erased, I will cry.
		
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I admire your stamina but you have taken the whole GDPR argument (if there is one) to a new level unless you members are ok with this and the club have proof, you have moved the responsibility to you and not the club.  I wonder what will happen when the club finally hit the accept button?


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

@mikejohnchapman from your post on another thread

The ESR under WHS is different and kicks in if you have a -7 Gross Differential (! shot) or -10 GD (2 Shots).

If you want to apply a recent adjustment to a handicap index you can do so on the individual members page of the EG Platform by selecting official adjustment. You can add a one or two shot adjustment which will have the effect of reducing all 20 rounds in the playing record by 1 or 2 shots. As more rounds are added these will not have the adjustment so the ESR flushes through. 

Do you know what happens if you do that on the platform - does it feed back and fill at the ISV end or should this be done at the ISV end.  Appreciate we are flying blind here without seeing the final ISV product but I don't fancy having to do dual entries on any of the detail required including when people change their email.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I admire your stamina but you have taken the whole GDPR argument (if there is one) to a new level unless you members are ok with this and the club have proof, you have moved the responsibility to you and not the club.  I wonder what will happen when the club finally hit the accept button?
		
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My feeling is that those details are already on our Club V1 system, so I was simply taking the view that we are using the details members have already given us (and they have no idea what we use them for when they supply them anyway), and copying them into our WHS Portal for the handicaps they wish us to maintain.

I am not a GDPR expert. Simply a volunteer that helps on the Committee outside my day job. England Golf developed a system in which members must have their e-mail addresses on the portal to get their Index information. Only a month before launch, they send out their GDPR document, which was e-mailed to our members. Not had any feedback on that. The owners staff then started furiously chasing people with missing details, as requested, and updated Club V1 accordingly. We were under the impression this would be transferred to WHS. It wasn't. The owner of our golf club rang Club V1 to authorise this to happen last week. It didn't, probably due to a technical issue or breakdown in communication. So, with less than 1 week to go, I have had members text me, leave message on whatsapp groups, asking what is going on. I've heard from 3rd parties that other golfers have been moaning behind the scenes. And, of course, as handicap secretary, I'm sure many will point the finger at me, given they do not know the shambles that has been made to bring this to launch. So, I e-mailed all members yesterday afternoon explaining exactly why there was a delay, and that I would aim to manually rectify this over the next few evenings. The whole time, from when the GDPR was sent out at end of last month, have I heard of any member refuse for this to be used. I'd happily remove this info if they wanted.

If GDPR was going to be an issue, I have no idea why clubs could not have been told in the middle of the summer. We could have sent out e-mails, and had a sheet at the club. Members could opt in or out, and we could check them off individually. Over the course of a few months, that would have given plenty of time for golfers to give us that feedback. Or, why could the system not be developed where, when registering, members could not simply provide their e-mail address and DOB directly? (maybe there is a good reason, but if not it seems a simple solution). So, basically, with less than a week to go, I felt if I didn't sort this now, it would cause all sorts of issues from next week. I expect this anyway, as my Seniors representative informed me yesterday that most Seniors do not even know what howdidido is (I referenced that to get CDH numbers) and I suspect many don't even read e-mails. So, I think many of them will not have a clue what is going on next week, forget about them using Apps.

Has anyone put their PSI terminal back on for members to use, after Covid restrictions?


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Agree with every thing you wrote @Swango1980 one big cluster muck all round and fingers should be pointed very firmly at EG. Looking forward to our next meeting.
Our seniors were the first this year to fully adopt and use all the faculties available on HDID from booking in on a comp all the way to score entry, benefit during the lock down period of running tests and talking members through it, this was closely followed by the ladies. Still waiting for the mens section to get their act together. 

PSI  only in use by 2 nominated people, me and the club manager.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Agree with every thing you wrote @Swango1980 one big cluster muck all round and fingers should be pointed very firmly at EG. Looking forward to our next meeting.
Our seniors were the first this year to fully adopt and use all the faculties available on HDID from booking in on a comp all the way to score entry, benefit during the lock down period of running tests and talking members through it, this was closely followed by the ladies. Still waiting for the mens section to get their act together.

PSI  only in use by 2 nominated people, me and the club manager.
		
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The seniors competition secretary informed me yesterday they are running a "qualifier" next Wednesday, should he just use Club V1 as normal. I tried to explain to him that the term qualifier will no longer be a thing with WHS. I also have no idea what Club V1 will look like, or whether it will even be ready, to deal with a WHS competition. I said he should discuss with the Seniors how they want to proceed with it. However, it would be worth them trying out a WHS competition just to try and start getting used to it, even if scores need to be entered at a later date? I know some clubs who have said they'd just use Congu handicaps until they can trust WHS, but I would be keen on using it right from the start so that we are seasoned experts by March.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

Questions are flooding in now. One asks is there any way to see his individual hole scores? I don't suppose this information is available.


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## IanMcC (Oct 28, 2020)

I noticed several of my friends, and also myself, were missing some rounds from the GolfBox CDH Database, which Wales Golf uses. (I hasten to add I am not speaking about the new WHS Portal, this is the Wales Golf CDH database that will be used for the data transfer.) I contacted Wales Golf and they fobbed me off to ClubV1. ClubV1 tried a Club CDH Sync but nothing changed. If I perform an individual CDH Sync on Club V1 then this does transfer the data over from ClubV1 to Golfbox. 
I ran a playing frequency report from ClubV1 and I am currently in the process of cross checking ClubV1 rounds against GolfBox database. After completing page 1 of 8, I found 24 perfect records and 16 with rounds missing. A CDH Sync almost instantly updated GolfBox. I intend to do all pages today.
I believe ClubV1 software to be not robust enough to write to Golfbox consistently. Maybe it is just a Wales Golf thing, as England Golf uses a different Database, but I urge all M&H secretaries to run a check. After changeover I don't know if the ClubV1 CDH Sync will be available to write to the new database, and if it is, how effective it will be.
On a separate note, one golfer was missing all of his 2019 rounds, and a CDH Sync does not fix it. A ClubV1 online rep was on it, but he made no progress, unsurprisingly.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I noticed several of my friends, and also myself, were missing some rounds from the GolfBox CDH Database, which Wales Golf uses. (I hasten to add I am not speaking about the new WHS Portal, this is the Wales Golf CDH database that will be used for the data transfer.) I contacted Wales Golf and they fobbed me off to ClubV1. ClubV1 tried a Club CDH Sync but nothing changed. If I perform an individual CDH Sync on Club V1 then this does transfer the data over from ClubV1 to Golfbox.
I ran a playing frequency report from ClubV1 and I am currently in the process of cross checking ClubV1 rounds against GolfBox database. After completing page 1 of 8, I found 24 perfect records and 16 with rounds missing. A CDH Sync almost instantly updated GolfBox. I intend to do all pages today.
I believe ClubV1 software to be not robust enough to write to Golfbox consistently. Maybe it is just a Wales Golf thing, as England Golf uses a different Database, but I urge all M&H secretaries to run a check. After changeover I don't know if the ClubV1 CDH Sync will be available to write to the new database, and if it is, how effective it will be.
*On a separate note, one golfer was missing all of his 2019 rounds, and a CDH Sync does not fix it. A ClubV1 online rep was on it, but he made no progress, unsurprisingly*.
		
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Ian, one thing to consider is, did the player have a CDH number in 2019. We have a player with all his 2018 rounds missing from the WHS platform (although the rounds do appear on his score history in Club V1). The reason was that, although Club V1 was updating his handicap in 2018, the handicap secretary at the time had never assigned him a CDH number. I discovered this when I took over the role in 2019, and assigned him one. However, it does mean that none of his previous scores ever went to CDH unfortunately. I'd have thought a good idea would be that, when a player without a CDH entered a score, there was at least some sort of warning or reminder they didn't have a CDH.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The seniors competition secretary informed me yesterday they are running a "qualifier" next Wednesday, should he just use Club V1 as normal. I tried to explain to him that the term qualifier will no longer be a thing with WHS. I also have no idea what Club V1 will look like, or whether it will even be ready, to deal with a WHS competition. I said he should discuss with the Seniors how they want to proceed with it. However, it would be worth them trying out a WHS competition just to try and start getting used to it, even if scores need to be entered at a later date? I know some clubs who have said they'd just use Congu handicaps until they can trust WHS, but I would be keen on using it right from the start so that we are seasoned experts by March.
		
Click to expand...

I have access to the WHS beta system, don't you.
We are running a comp for the seniors next Tuesday and will set it up on the day however it will be a NQ as I think that's still an option just incase there are any surprises. 

I'm with you, use it from the start, isvs will be quick enough to shut it down if there's a problem and you cant spot problems unless it's in use.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Questions are flooding in now. One asks is there any way to see his individual hole scores? I don't suppose this information is available.
		
Click to expand...

You can on hdid


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Ian, one thing to consider is, did the player have a CDH number in 2019. We have a player with all his 2018 rounds missing from the WHS platform (although the rounds do appear on his score history in Club V1). The reason was that, although Club V1 was updating his handicap in 2018, the handicap secretary at the time had never assigned him a CDH number. I discovered this when I took over the role in 2019, and assigned him one. However, it does mean that none of his previous scores ever went to CDH unfortunately. I'd have thought a good idea would be that, when a player without a CDH entered a score, there was at least some sort of warning or reminder they didn't have a CDH.
		
Click to expand...

This, we have spotted a few, problem with none golfers entering the 3 cards.


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## IanMcC (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Ian, one thing to consider is, did the player have a CDH number in 2019. We have a player with all his 2018 rounds missing from the WHS platform (although the rounds do appear on his score history in Club V1). The reason was that, although Club V1 was updating his handicap in 2018, the handicap secretary at the time had never assigned him a CDH number. I discovered this when I took over the role in 2019, and assigned him one. However, it does mean that none of his previous scores ever went to CDH unfortunately. I'd have thought a good idea would be that, when a player without a CDH entered a score, there was at least some sort of warning or reminder they didn't have a CDH.
		
Click to expand...

He did have a CDH number, but he brought it from another Welsh Club. I have just checked again. That player now has a full history on GolfBox. Either my CDH Sync did the trick (likely) or the ClubV1 guy fixed something without telling me.


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## jim8flog (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Has anyone put their PSI terminal back on for members to use, after Covid restrictions?
		
Click to expand...

Yes moved to a new location and in full use with wipes and gel next to it.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			He did have a CDH number, but he brought it from another Welsh Club. I have just checked again. That player now has a full history on GolfBox. Either my CDH Sync did the trick (likely) or the ClubV1 guy fixed something without telling me.
		
Click to expand...

Ask Club Systems to do a complete sync a couple of weeks ago


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I have access to the WHS beta system, don't you.
We are running a comp for the seniors next Tuesday and will set it up on the day however it will be a NQ as I think that's still an option just incase there are any surprises.

I'm with you, use it from the start, isvs will be quick enough to shut it down if there's a problem and you cant spot problems unless it's in use.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest, I try to stay clear from competitions as much as possible, as we have just formed a 4-man comp committee, and too many cooks. However, I obviously need to provide them feedback regarding handicap considerations. If I get a chance with the beta, I'll have a look. However, I am absolutely up to my neck in it at work, and I'm spending my evenings to deal with WHS mostly. Thankfully I work in an office, so I can dip in and out of here just to give my mind a rest (from work, but I think it is probably doing me more harm than good). I see England Golf are now starting to e-mail other info, such as the Toolkit 2.0, with incentives like WHS Challenge event. All stuff I'd have loved to have had a month or 2 to read about, and chat and distribute to the relevant comp secs for each section. I'm not sure if they think most clubs have full time staff that have plenty of people and plenty of staff just to digest this stuff as soon as it comes in.


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## jim8flog (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Questions are flooding in now. One asks is there any way to see his individual hole scores? I don't suppose this information is available.
		
Click to expand...

 On the EG website at present no- future scores probably

On IG yes until it gets changed.

I printed off my mine for future reference.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 28, 2020)

I may be late to the party on this one but it appears that CSS has now been factored in to the Handicap Index calculations. (I've noticed my index went from 11.2 to 11.5 without new scores being added so thought I'd investigate the reason why!!!)


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## rulefan (Oct 28, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I may be late to the party on this one but it appears that CSS has now been factored in to the Handicap Index calculations. (I've noticed my index went from 11.2 to 11.5 without new scores being added so thought I'd investigate the reason why!!!)
		
Click to expand...

Do you think EG has done another CDH to WHS run? Having said they wouldn't until 1 Nov.


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## yandabrown (Oct 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you think EG has done another CDH to WHS run? Having said they wouldn't until 1 Nov.
		
Click to expand...

I think perhaps they have just re-run the calculations to include the CSS but against the data they already had.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you think EG has done another CDH to WHS run? Having said they wouldn't until 1 Nov.
		
Click to expand...

No. Simply because if they had of done then they'd have surely included results from October...and no new scores appear in my records. I agree with yandabrowns assessment above.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@mikejohnchapman from your post on another thread

The ESR under WHS is different and kicks in if you have a -7 Gross Differential (! shot) or -10 GD (2 Shots).

If you want to apply a recent adjustment to a handicap index you can do so on the individual members page of the EG Platform by selecting official adjustment. You can add a one or two shot adjustment which will have the effect of reducing all 20 rounds in the playing record by 1 or 2 shots. As more rounds are added these will not have the adjustment so the ESR flushes through.

*Do you know what happens if you do that on the platform - does it feed back and fill at the ISV end or should this be done at the ISV end.  Appreciate we are flying blind here without seeing the final ISV product but I don't fancy having to do dual entries on any of the detail required including when people change their email.*

Click to expand...

I assume the various platforms will synchronise certain information. The primary platform will be the ISV base which will take it's HI from the EG Platform. Thus any changes made to the platform will flow back. Changes to personal data will be made on the ISV platform as primary - not sure personal details other than email and DoB will synch with the EG Platform. Thus adding addresses / phones etc will probably be made via My England Golf but I don't think this will synchronise with the ISV platform. 

I realise I'm using logic here which ay be dangerous!


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

After a delayed start for V1 users due to further upgrades, admins will now get a message if they haven't uploaded the course ratings and slopes to their courses.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 29, 2020)

CSS fix in place now with adjustments showing under PCC.

Well done EG I didn't think you would fix it in time.


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## rulefan (Oct 29, 2020)

One down, ? to go


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

Did I hear that there was no small field allowance and that stroke play whatever the field size is 95%


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## Chinny (Oct 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Did I hear that there was no small field allowance and that stroke play whatever the field size is 95%
		
Click to expand...

yep, GB&I will be 95% even in smaller fields (less than 30)


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## yandabrown (Oct 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Did I hear that there was no small field allowance and that stroke play whatever the field size is 95%
		
Click to expand...

Correct from: https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-cont...-of-Handicapping-as-applied-within-GBI-V2.pdf 

GC/1 (Appendix C/1) Handicap Allowance for Small Fields The recommendation to increase the allowance to 100% for field sizes of fewer than 30 players is not being adopted in GB&I. The allowance for single stroke play events is 95% regardless of the field size


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## IanMcC (Oct 29, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			CSS fix in place now with adjustments showing under PCC.

Well done EG I didn't think you would fix it in time.
		
Click to expand...

Wales Golf updated also.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

And now EG send out a toolkit for players, you can’t make this up.


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## jim8flog (Oct 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And now EG send out a toolkit for players, you can’t make this up.
		
Click to expand...

 This booklet has been available for months (you can order more copies from CONGU)


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## jim8flog (Oct 29, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			CSS fix in place now with adjustments showing under PCC.

Well done EG I didn't think you would fix it in time.
		
Click to expand...

 not all clubs/players yet.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			This booklet has been available for months (you can order more copies from CONGU)

View attachment 33188

Click to expand...

Had a few, I’m talking about this that clubs received today to send out to members

http://www.englandgolf.org/download/whs-golfer-toolkit/


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## jim8flog (Oct 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had a few, I’m talking about this that clubs received today to send out to members

http://www.englandgolf.org/download/whs-golfer-toolkit/

Click to expand...

 Looks like something to let our members discover for themselves.

If they have not read all the know the score posters (which contain most of this information) we have put all round the club by now...................


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Looks like something to let our members discover for themselves.

If they have not read all the know the score posters (which contain most of this information) we have put all round the club by now...................
		
Click to expand...

Best place to keep a secret, put it on a notice board


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 29, 2020)

*Heads-Up if You Used Duplicate eMail Addresses to the EG Platform!*

This received today - nothing like a veiled treat to get the blood pumping!

Dear Golf Club
Thank you for assisting in the transfer of member data to the WHS platform in preparation for launch on 2 November 2020.

The vast majority of clubs have engaged with the system as intended, and we know a lot of hard work has gone into collecting data where there have been gaps, and communicating with members about what the changes will mean for them.

The data on the platform shows that a number of members of your club are using the same email address. As you know, email address is one of the data points used by the system to identify a unique individual.

As a data controller we are obliged to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the data we collect is accurate, and it would be irresponsible of us to process personal data which we know or reasonably believe to be inaccurate.

We are keen that no member is excluded from the system for lack of access to the internet, and of course the system accepts shared emails in recognition of the fact that parents of junior members may wish to provide their own email address, and some couples choose to share an email address. We are also aware that some “placeholder” information may have been entered for members where the data is not yet available, or clubs may have provided support to members in setting up an email address.
With that in mind would you please get in touch to let us know what action you are taking to provide accurate and up to date email addresses for all members as soon as possible so that we can continue to work together to ensure the integrity of the system for the benefit of all members.

Please note that we reserve the right to restrict access to the system in respect of any members appearing to have an inaccurate email address attached to their record.
If you or your members have any queries please do feel free to get in touch with the team via WHS2020@englandgolf.org.

Regards

Emily Green
Head of Legal


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



*Heads-Up if You Used Duplicate eMail Addresses to the EG Platform!*

This received today - nothing like a veiled treat to get the blood pumping!

Dear Golf Club
Thank you for assisting in the transfer of member data to the WHS platform in preparation for launch on 2 November 2020.

The vast majority of clubs have engaged with the system as intended, and we know a lot of hard work has gone into collecting data where there have been gaps, and communicating with members about what the changes will mean for them.

The data on the platform shows that a number of members of your club are using the same email address. As you know, email address is one of the data points used by the system to identify a unique individual.

As a data controller we are obliged to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the data we collect is accurate, and it would be irresponsible of us to process personal data which we know or reasonably believe to be inaccurate.

We are keen that no member is excluded from the system for lack of access to the internet, and of course the system accepts shared emails in recognition of the fact that parents of junior members may wish to provide their own email address, and some couples choose to share an email address. We are also aware that some “placeholder” information may have been entered for members where the data is not yet available, or clubs may have provided support to members in setting up an email address.
With that in mind would you please get in touch to let us know what action you are taking to provide accurate and up to date email addresses for all members as soon as possible so that we can continue to work together to ensure the integrity of the system for the benefit of all members.

Please note that we reserve the right to restrict access to the system in respect of any members appearing to have an inaccurate email address attached to their record.
If you or your members have any queries please do feel free to get in touch with the team via WHS2020@englandgolf.org.

Regards

Emily Green
Head of Legal
		
Click to expand...

I have emailed them several times over the past week asking what their plan B is for members who not only don’t have email addresses or have access to the internet and have had no response.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



*Heads-Up if You Used Duplicate eMail Addresses to the EG Platform!*

This received today - nothing like a veiled treat to get the blood pumping!

Dear Golf Club
Thank you for assisting in the transfer of member data to the WHS platform in preparation for launch on 2 November 2020.

The vast majority of clubs have engaged with the system as intended, and we know a lot of hard work has gone into collecting data where there have been gaps, and communicating with members about what the changes will mean for them.

The data on the platform shows that a number of members of your club are using the same email address. As you know, email address is one of the data points used by the system to identify a unique individual.

As a data controller we are obliged to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the data we collect is accurate, and it would be irresponsible of us to process personal data which we know or reasonably believe to be inaccurate.

We are keen that no member is excluded from the system for lack of access to the internet, and of course the system accepts shared emails in recognition of the fact that parents of junior members may wish to provide their own email address, and some couples choose to share an email address. We are also aware that some “placeholder” information may have been entered for members where the data is not yet available, or clubs may have provided support to members in setting up an email address.
With that in mind would you please get in touch to let us know what action you are taking to provide accurate and up to date email addresses for all members as soon as possible so that we can continue to work together to ensure the integrity of the system for the benefit of all members.

Please note that we reserve the right to restrict access to the system in respect of any members appearing to have an inaccurate email address attached to their record.
If you or your members have any queries please do feel free to get in touch with the team via WHS2020@englandgolf.org.

Regards

Emily Green
Head of Legal
		
Click to expand...

The response you will get

Thank you for your email regarding WHS. 

We are aiming to respond to all enquiries within 5 working days. 

However we are experiencing a large volume of enquiries so please bear with us. 

Kind regards


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## Swango1980 (Oct 29, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



*Heads-Up if You Used Duplicate eMail Addresses to the EG Platform!*

This received today - nothing like a veiled treat to get the blood pumping!

Dear Golf Club
Thank you for assisting in the transfer of member data to the WHS platform in preparation for launch on 2 November 2020.

The vast majority of clubs have engaged with the system as intended, and we know a lot of hard work has gone into collecting data where there have been gaps, and communicating with members about what the changes will mean for them.

The data on the platform shows that a number of members of your club are using the same email address. As you know, email address is one of the data points used by the system to identify a unique individual.

As a data controller we are obliged to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the data we collect is accurate, and it would be irresponsible of us to process personal data which we know or reasonably believe to be inaccurate.

We are keen that no member is excluded from the system for lack of access to the internet, and of course the system accepts shared emails in recognition of the fact that parents of junior members may wish to provide their own email address, and some couples choose to share an email address. We are also aware that some “placeholder” information may have been entered for members where the data is not yet available, or clubs may have provided support to members in setting up an email address.
With that in mind would you please get in touch to let us know what action you are taking to provide accurate and up to date email addresses for all members as soon as possible so that we can continue to work together to ensure the integrity of the system for the benefit of all members.

Please note that we reserve the right to restrict access to the system in respect of any members appearing to have an inaccurate email address attached to their record.
If you or your members have any queries please do feel free to get in touch with the team via WHS2020@englandgolf.org.

Regards

Emily Green
Head of Legal
		
Click to expand...

I am still at my day job. All day sitting in front of a computer, my mind turning into mash. I saw England Golf sent another e-mail asking clubs to forward a Golfers Toolkit to all members. So, I've now gone through the process of doing that. But, honestly, I'm going to have to walk away and clear my head, I can barely keep up. I'll be taking a few days leave next week, the first I've had in 6 months. And, it looks like I'll be spending a lot of that in front of a computer Reviewing handicaps. And, it will have to be done quickly because they will be applicable immediately in the winter competitions, especially those playing knockouts, who could theoretically be playing on 2nd.

There were a handful of members who shared the same e-mail addresses, mostly couples.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

Just received this


In reply 

Should members not have their own email address, the system will allow players to share an email address.  This is in recognition of the fact that parents of junior members may wish to use their own email address, and many couples choose to share an email address. Players without an email address could ask to use the email of a friend or family member, alternatively help could be provided to the member to set up an email account for this purpose. Those members who do not have an email address associated with their record will not be able to access the handicap system under WHS.

Kindest regards


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I am still at my day job. All day sitting in front of a computer, my mind turning into mash. I saw England Golf sent another e-mail asking clubs to forward a Golfers Toolkit to all members. So, I've now gone through the process of doing that. But, honestly, I'm going to have to walk away and clear my head, I can barely keep up. I'll be taking a few days leave next week, the first I've had in 6 months. And, it looks like I'll be spending a lot of that in front of a computer Reviewing handicaps. And, it will have to be done quickly because they will be applicable immediately in the winter competitions, especially those playing knockouts, who could theoretically be playing on 2nd.

There were a handful of members who shared the same e-mail addresses, mostly couples.
		
Click to expand...

@Swango1980 don’t you have a committee. There are four of us, one from each section and me and they have been great at taking on specific tasks. We are even working a shift system tomorrow to help anyone at the club who might be having a problem.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@Swango1980 don’t you have a committee. There are four of us, one from each section and me and they have been great at taking on specific tasks. We are even working a shift system tomorrow to help anyone at the club who might be having a problem.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, I have a representative in the Seniors section, who has been great at communicating with his section. We have an incredibly small ladies section, with a new representative coming on main Committee and joining the handicap committee. She has volunteered to become a WHS Guru, as per the WHS Toolkit

However, everything is now happening so fast in terms of making the technology available, finding bugs and ensuring members can access it, that I simply do not have time to co-ordinate our efforts to ease the workload. The fact I work is one issue, but Covid really makes it impractical or unjustified to have any face to face meetings.

I'm the one who has access to the software, and it is better I take all final actions, otherwise it could end up the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. I'm the one who gets a lot of the member questions, albeit a lot of the Seniors will be able to discuss things on a wednesday morning with the Seniors representative. 

If WHS was to go active on the software on the 2nd November, but not officially used by golfers in comps until early next year, I could be a lot more relaxed about it. It would not be the end of the world if every golfer couldn't get access to it immediately next week. We'd have had time to deal and wait for issues such as member email addresses  being in system. During every winter comp we could show golfers what would happen if WHS was in place, so they get more familiar with it. Instead, there are a range of member types. Some, very few, who have actually read our emails and done own research, and are comfortable with the basics. Quite a few who are aware it is coming, know very vague details but confused by it all, and are the types where only practice will help them understand. And, a vast majority who have not bothered to learn about it, as they have more important things in life to worry about, and will just deal with it when it arrives. How well they deal with it is another matter. 

There will he a range of clubs. Some with almost full time, or retired dedicated Committee members, with good facilities at club and home, to really be able to take these things head on as they come quick and fast. Probably a well educated membership, who pay high annual fees because they are invested in golf. We are at other end of spectrum. Committee members with not much free time, no decent facilities at club and a membership who pay very cheap fees, and golf for many is a lesser priority in comparison to other interests or family in their lives. My only fortune is I can do bits and pieces at work, but not much due to workload. I wonder how many other clubs, similar to mine, have had committee members who really have little time at all, have not really invested much time in educating themselves in WHS in last year, and might be in for a nasty shock next week? Perhaps I'm just preparing for the worst, but maybe we can hope for the best


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

Sounds like our club.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

New problem has raised its head...

Just been contacted by a couple of our members who have highlighted that when they try to register for the Members Account on the England Golf site, the verification code is being sent to a different email address from the one that is registered.

I've checked the DotGolf portal and the email address that is held is correct.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			New problem has raised its head...

Just been contacted by a couple of our members who have highlighted that when they try to register for the Members Account on the England Golf site, the verification code is being sent to a different email address from the one that is registered.

I've checked the DotGolf portal and the email address that is held is correct.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean that they are not getting the e-mail at all, or it is somehow finding it's way to an alternative e-mail they may have, but didn't expect to be used? For example, some might have already been registered with England Golf previously under a different e-mail address? Just thinking out loud


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			New problem has raised its head...

Just been contacted by a couple of our members who have highlighted that when they try to register for the Members Account on the England Golf site, the verification code is being sent to a different email address from the one that is registered.

I've checked the DotGolf portal and the email address that is held is correct.
		
Click to expand...

mmm....on investigation it appears that there were incorrect email addresses but someone else had corrected the errors without my knowledge!!!!


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			New problem has raised its head...

Just been contacted by a couple of our members who have highlighted that when they try to register for the Members Account on the England Golf site, the verification code is being sent to a different email address from the one that is registered.

I've checked the DotGolf portal and the email address that is held is correct.
		
Click to expand...

Check the system used by the club and the email on the WHS dashboard is correct and the user is using the same email. This will become a bigger issue when members change email acc and don't info anyone. Why doesn't everyone set up a gmail account


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you mean that they are not getting the e-mail at all, or it is somehow finding it's way to an alternative e-mail they may have, but didn't expect to be used? For example, some might have already been registered with England Golf previously under a different e-mail address? Just thinking out loud
		
Click to expand...

as reported to me by both players they were not getting the emails and the WHS system told them that the email had been sent to n*******4@mail.com and there seemed to be an error with the n*******4 part (either not enough characters or the last character was wrong). But its sorted now as per my post above. Seems like they took a shotgun approach to getting the issue resolved and contacted both myself and the Handicap Secretary and he sorted it before I saw the emails!!!


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Check the system used by the club and the email on the WHS dashboard is correct and the user is using the same email. This will become a bigger issue when members change email acc and don't info anyone. Why doesn't everyone set up a gmail account 

Click to expand...

The email was correct when I checked it...but unbeknownst to me someone else had already corrected the error.


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## lex! (Oct 30, 2020)

Have incomplete playing records on WHS, seems all rounds for October have not been copied for my club from the CDH


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

lex! said:



			Have incomplete playing records on WHS, seems all rounds for October have not been copied for my club from the CDH
		
Click to expand...

Thats as it should be.

The current data was a snapshot taken towards the end of September. The data will be updated on Sunday evening so you will see the scores submitted in October on players records on Monday.


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## lex! (Oct 30, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



*Heads-Up if You Used Duplicate eMail Addresses to the EG Platform!*

This received today - nothing like a veiled treat to get the blood pumping!

Dear Golf Club
Thank you for assisting in the transfer of member data to the WHS platform in preparation for launch on 2 November 2020.

The vast majority of clubs have engaged with the system as intended, and we know a lot of hard work has gone into collecting data where there have been gaps, and communicating with members about what the changes will mean for them.

The data on the platform shows that a number of members of your club are using the same email address. As you know, email address is one of the data points used by the system to identify a unique individual.

As a data controller we are obliged to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the data we collect is accurate, and it would be irresponsible of us to process personal data which we know or reasonably believe to be inaccurate.

We are keen that no member is excluded from the system for lack of access to the internet, and of course the system accepts shared emails in recognition of the fact that parents of junior members may wish to provide their own email address, and some couples choose to share an email address. We are also aware that some “placeholder” information may have been entered for members where the data is not yet available, or clubs may have provided support to members in setting up an email address.
With that in mind would you please get in touch to let us know what action you are taking to provide accurate and up to date email addresses for all members as soon as possible so that we can continue to work together to ensure the integrity of the system for the benefit of all members.

Please note that we reserve the right to restrict access to the system in respect of any members appearing to have an inaccurate email address attached to their record.
If you or your members have any queries please do feel free to get in touch with the team via WHS2020@englandgolf.org.

Regards

Emily Green
Head of Legal
		
Click to expand...

There will be thousands of these instances. Without member consent for data release, placeholders have been sent from clubs for email address and DOB


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## lex! (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Thats as it should be.

The current data was a snapshot taken towards the end of September. The data will be updated on Sunday evening so you will see the scores submitted in October on players records on Monday.
		
Click to expand...

Lastminute.com


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

I actually think that England Golf would be unhappily surprised if they knew the proportion of golfers who actually don't give a toss about being able to see and track their handicap on a website somewhere.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

Does anyone know if there is a report that can be dragged off the DotGolf portal that allows club admins to see actually how many members have registered?


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## lex! (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Does anyone know if there is a report that can be dragged off the DotGolf portal that allows club admins to see actually how many members have registered?
		
Click to expand...

Registered for what, a personal account on England Golf?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Does anyone know if there is a report that can be dragged off the DotGolf portal that allows club admins to see actually how many members have registered?
		
Click to expand...

Great question. I was trying to find that the other day. No success


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

lex! said:



			Registered for what, a personal account on England Golf?
		
Click to expand...

Have registered to use the England Golf Members Account area where they can see their Handicap Index and scoring record.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Great question. I was trying to find that the other day. No success
		
Click to expand...

I mean...if it is so important for players to register then surely we can expect to get chasing emails from England Golf asking us to chase our members and get them to register?....or maybe registration isn't important after all?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 30, 2020)

Come Monday, do we know what methods can be used for players to find their Index. I'm just trying to think of those that haven't realised / bothered to register with WHS Platform, and comparing to what they do now. At the moment, once a golfer knows their handicap, they can be pretty sure it will stay the same for some time, as they'll know it will only go down after a great score, or they'll soon know when they are edging towards getting a shot back. With WHS, suprising changed can occur after each round, especially if you have no concept of your scoring history. So, my thoughts are:


Through WHS Platform 
Howdidido? I assume this will at least give Index, if not Scoring History? This is what a lot of competition players already are familiar with anyway
Apps / PSI. Apps are probably just howdidido anyway, but will specifically tell you your handicap index when signing in to a comp?
Paper copies at club (although I am thinking of discontinuing this as I suspect it will be pretty out of date very quickly after publishing, so it would need to be changed too often


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Does anyone know if there is a report that can be dragged off the DotGolf portal that allows club admins to see actually how many members have registered?
		
Click to expand...

No, had to go through every member, but you can download it to an xl SS or CSV file.


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## jim8flog (Oct 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:




Paper copies at club (although I am thinking of discontinuing this as I suspect it will be pretty out of date very quickly after publishing, so it would need to be changed too often


Click to expand...

 That is one thing that definitely goes.
There is no requirement for it in the new rules and it is only as good as the day it is printed.


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

Info that has just come through

Competition Scratch Score (CSS) and Mapping of Tees
We are happy to provide clubs with an immediate update on the questions of CSS and mapping of tees.


All historical data regarding the CSS has now been successfully pulled from the old system and included on the new one


Our team is currently working to refresh elements of the new system which deal with the mapping of tees and courses


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No, had to go through every member, but you can download it to an xl SS or CSV file.
		
Click to expand...

Download what to a CSV file?


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

List of all members, I then went through the list cross checking with the dashboard and deleting members who have registered.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			List of all members, I then went through the list cross checking with the dashboard and deleting members who have registered.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know from looking at the dashboard if players have registered?


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			How do you know from looking at the dashboard if players have registered?
		
Click to expand...

Some will have helped you out by putting a telephone number in and or address -not many
Or
go to reports - members listings, click on member and go down to status and it will say registered or not registered.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Some will have helped you out by putting a telephone number in and or address -not many
Or
go to reports - members listings, click on member and go down to status and it will say registered or not registered.
		
Click to expand...

Right...I've got it thanks.


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## IanMcC (Oct 30, 2020)

A wee warning of what might be to come.

I noticed that one of my rounds was missing from GolfBox, the Wales Golf CDH Portal. I then noticed that some of my mates had missing rounds as well. I asked ClubV1 to perform a Club Synchronise, but nothing changed.

When scores are entered into Clubv1 software, at the moment that is where  handicap adjustments take place. This history is then transferred to GolfBox. It is the GolfBox data that WHS Clubhouse will lift for the new database. Problem is that the transfer between ClubV1 and GolfBox has not been perfect.  I am finding that individual player data syncs are working, so I worked my way through the list to make it as correct as it can be before changeover day. From 317 players who played at least one qualifier last year, 76 of them were missing data! All now fixed. Took 2 days.
After changeover day all of the handicaps will be adjusted on WHS Clubhouse. ClubV1 will not be the keeper of handicaps anymore, it will be Clubhouse.  I really fear that if the data transfer is not robust to the new software package then Handicap Index adjustments will get missed. I would encourage you to check your My Golf Overview the day after each round. Maybe I am being over pessimistic, but ClubV1 software would appear to be s**t at handing over data.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Info that has just come through

Competition Scratch Score (CSS) and Mapping of Tees
We are happy to provide clubs with an immediate update on the questions of CSS and mapping of tees.


All historical data regarding the CSS has now been successfully pulled from the old system and included on the new one


Our team is currently working to refresh elements of the new system which deal with the mapping of tees and courses


Click to expand...

We are missing 3 X 9 hole courses


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## rulefan (Oct 30, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We are missing 3 X 9 hole courses
		
Click to expand...

We have missing or erroneous 9 hole comps and issues with 9 and 18 hole supplementary scores.

Incidentally, does anyone know what 'Pending' records are?


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			We have missing or erroneous 9 hole comps and issues with 9 and 18 hole supplementary scores.

Incidentally, does anyone know what 'Pending' records are?
		
Click to expand...

Where are you seeing the pending?


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## jim8flog (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Info that has just come through

Competition Scratch Score (CSS) and Mapping of Tees
We are happy to provide clubs with an immediate update on the questions of CSS and mapping of tees.


All historical data regarding the CSS has now been successfully pulled from the old system and included on the new one


Our team is currently working to refresh elements of the new system which deal with the mapping of tees and courses


Click to expand...

 One of our principle problems is that one of our courses has a short and a long course according to the weather (different Courses ratings and slopes).  I noticed with the database they call the short course Alternate when we and IG call it Short.

The difference between the two course has not been picked up in the transfer and conversion of handicap records so a lot of scores have a 2 lower differential than actual. 

On a personal note I only have two scores which are affected which fall of by the time I next play in a qualifier but we must have loads for which this will be an issue if they notice.


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## rulefan (Oct 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Where are you seeing the pending?
		
Click to expand...

  In a player's View Scoring History in the HDCP INDX column


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 31, 2020)

We run a roll-up for our seniors and one member decided to produce a YouTube clip to explain the new system.

All the music and photography is his - sure beats Powerpoint

Link to Video

Please respect copyright


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## jim8flog (Nov 1, 2020)

One problem being reported on another thread.

Where players who have NRd one or more holes in a handicap comp but not the whole round,  that round does not appear in their WHS scores. This will reduce the number of rounds played and may change the H.I. calculation.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2020)

Anybody had any members that simply didn't have their handicaps included in WHS? Had one member contact me tonight saying he was having trouble registering. I went onto portal, and he simply is not there. Tried searching both his name and CDH, nothing.


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Anybody had any members that simply didn't have their handicaps included in WHS? Had one member contact me tonight saying he was having trouble registering. I went onto portal, and he simply is not there. Tried searching both his name and CDH, nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Had 2, one no CDH, 1 one on checking the CDH DB found he was still registered with another club.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had 2, one no CDH, 1 one on checking the CDH DB found he was still registered with another club.
		
Click to expand...

This guy has a CDH. Been a member for years. Don't think he is registered with another club, though the CDH database has now disappeared to double check


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## rulefan (Nov 1, 2020)

Does anyone if we will still have access to the 'frozen' CDH data tomorrow? I would like to be able to check the original records of some players which may have inconsistent data in the WHS platform. I have asked EG but no response as yet.

I can still get in at the moment


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## rulefan (Nov 1, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			This guy has a CDH. Been a member for years. Don't think he is registered with another club, though the CDH database has now disappeared to double check
		
Click to expand...

See PM


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## SammmeBee (Nov 1, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I am still at my day job. All day sitting in front of a computer, my mind turning into mash. I saw England Golf sent another e-mail asking clubs to forward a Golfers Toolkit to all members. So, I've now gone through the process of doing that. But, honestly, I'm going to have to walk away and clear my head, I can barely keep up. I'll be taking a few days leave next week, the first I've had in 6 months. And, it looks like I'll be spending a lot of that in front of a computer Reviewing handicaps. And, it will have to be done quickly because they will be applicable immediately in the winter competitions, especially those playing knockouts, who could theoretically be playing on 2nd.

There were a handful of members who shared the same e-mail addresses, mostly couples.
		
Click to expand...

Enjoy your days off......


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Does anyone if we will still have access to the 'frozen' CDH data tomorrow? I would like to be able to check the original records of some players which may have inconsistent data in the WHS platform. I have asked EG but no response as yet.

I can still get in at the moment
		
Click to expand...

V1 users will have access to both systems.


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## rulefan (Nov 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			V1 users will have access to both systems.
		
Click to expand...

What do you mean by both?
WHS, V1 data or CDH direct?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

So, today is the day. Any feedback? I plan to start review tonight and tomorrow. I notice howdidido still reports Congu handicaps


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## upsidedown (Nov 2, 2020)

In Club v 1 still have a lot of N/A against members who have recently joined in the last year


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			In Club v 1 still have a lot of N/A against members who have recently joined in the last year
		
Click to expand...

I am trying to search for members on Club V1, I type their name on search bar, click on it, then get an Error Screen. The Directory is broken


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## fenwayrich (Nov 2, 2020)

First impression is that much remains unresolved. Although recent scores have been added, none are included in the calculation. Our gents scores were all based on the wrong tees which hasn't been resolved yet. The WHS portal isn't working (bad pathway?).

All in all, not a good start, to put it kindly.


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## upsidedown (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I am trying to search for members on Club V1, I type their name on search bar, click on it, then get an Error Screen. The Directory is broken
		
Click to expand...

I looked on the members section on the  app.


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## upsidedown (Nov 2, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			I looked on the members section on the  app.
		
Click to expand...

HI are shown against members in the admin section but no scoring record for either ClubV 1 or WHS, last updated at 4.21 today so suspect another update late ?


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## rulefan (Nov 2, 2020)

Out ladies course has not been corrected. One of my scores has been omitted.


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## louise_a (Nov 2, 2020)

Two of our ladies section are showing as No Handicap, even though they did have one in the initial download


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Let us say I was a golfer, who had not yet registered, or been able to register for the WHS platform. And, today I had a winter knockout/league match. How would I be able to find out what my Index is? The default for those that didn't know what their handicap is would be to go onto howdidido. But, that is just showing CONGU handicaps.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Just been on the WHS Platform. All Score Differentials and PCC have completely disappeared for all 2020 scores for every member. All the other round details are there, but these columns are simply blank, and the Index column changed to Pending


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Just logged into my  EG WHS account and it states that work is ongoing on refreshing data and it should be completed by tomorrow


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Just been on the WHS Platform. All Score Differentials and PCC have completely disappeared for all 2020 scores for every member. All the other round details are there, but these columns are simply blank, and the Index column changed to Pending
		
Click to expand...

Just ran the handicap list and I now have a few pending members   wasnt there before.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Let us say I was a golfer, who had not yet registered, or been able to register for the WHS platform. And, today I had a winter knockout/league match. How would I be able to find out what my Index is? The default for those that didn't know what their handicap is would be to go onto howdidido. But, that is just showing CONGU handicaps.
		
Click to expand...

Going to have a paper copy  of handicaps for this week.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Not having problem with the search function on V1


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

louise_a said:



			Two of our ladies section are showing as No Handicap, even though they did have one in the initial download
		
Click to expand...

See ##193


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## fenwayrich (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just ran the handicap list and I now have a few pending members   wasnt there before.
		
Click to expand...

Is this because they haven't accepted the privacy terms set out by England Golf, ie email, date of birth and male/female? We have a pretty significant number of those.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			Is this because they haven't accepted the privacy terms set out by England Golf, ie email, date of birth and male/female? We have a pretty significant number of those.
		
Click to expand...

All our members accepted the privacy notice fortunately but needs a bit of further investigation but Club Systems promised access to the old CONGU system but can’t see how yet. Going for a long walk away from the golf course and wait for the chat help line to open, bet it’s swamped.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

England Golf Portal has a message...

_The World Handicap System is now live. During the course of today we will continue the process of updating player records and refreshing data. This will be completed by Tuesday. If you are playing a competition today then please use your Handicap Index as displayed at your club or on the platform. _

I can see that rounds played in October have been included in the WHS data but not included as part of the current index calculation.

Rounds submitted for initial handicap have not been imported to the WHS meaning that many players have a much smaller playing history than they should have meaning their current index is going to be very volatile for a few weeks.

All I will say is that the WHS is about as live as Graham Chapmans Norwegian Blue parrot.


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## louise_a (Nov 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			England Golf Portal has a message...

_The World Handicap System is now live. During the course of today we will continue the process of updating player records and refreshing data. This will be completed by Tuesday. If you are playing a competition today then please use your Handicap Index as displayed at your club or on the platform. _

I can see that rounds played in October have been included in the WHS data but not included as part of the current index calculation.

Rounds submitted for initial handicap have not been imported to the WHS meaning that many players have a much smaller playing history than they should have meaning their current index is going to be very volatile for a few weeks.

All I will say is that the WHS is about as live as John Cleese's Norwegian Blue parrot.
		
Click to expand...


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not having problem with the search function on V1
		
Click to expand...

ClubV1 have replied asking what e-mail address I log in with. I think it could be because I log into the handicaps / competitions account. We do not have full admin rights, unlike the owner. I'm still getting the problem


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 2, 2020)

What a pity after so much hype things have gone off with such a damp squib. 

I'm reluctant to point the finger but the communication around the preparation and implementation leave a lot to be desired.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			England Golf Portal has a message...

_The World Handicap System is now live. During the course of today we will continue the process of updating player records and refreshing data. This will be completed by Tuesday. If you are playing a competition today then please use your Handicap Index as displayed at your club or on the platform. _

I can see that rounds played in October have been included in the WHS data but not included as part of the current index calculation.

Rounds submitted for initial handicap have not been imported to the WHS meaning that many players have a much smaller playing history than they should have meaning their current index is going to be very volatile for a few weeks.

All I will say is that the WHS is about as live as Graham Chapmans Norwegian Blue parrot.
		
Click to expand...

my bad....Chapman was the disgruntled customer in the Car Salesman sketch (preceeding Monty Python) which inspired the Dead Parrot sketch, of course as Loise pointed out, Cleese was the customer....and Michael Palin the shopkeeper/salesman on both occasions!!!


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

HDID for V1 users hopes to have completed their sync of HC index by midday


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

HDID now showing my index however saying like EG that it may change along the same lines as WHS


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 2, 2020)

Records are full of pending scores but no CSS so worse than missing - just wrong!


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

We seem to have identified a problem where golfers who have previously left a club (and in CDH were listed as "placeholder not set") have not had their records transferred to the WHS...so when they join a new club there is no scoring history in the WHS for them!!

Will see what happens when we try to add the player (unfortunately we cant at the moment as we are waiting for an update to our Handicapping Software!!!)


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			HDID now showing my index however saying like EG that it may change along the same lines as WHS
		
Click to expand...

Really, my HDID still shows CONGU handicap


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

Just received this from our ISV...

_We upgraded cloud systems yesterday in readiness for today's launch of the World Handicap System, and released our new software today.

Unfortunately, we have been informed by DotGolf [services provider to England Golf, Wales Golf and Golf Ireland] that for England, Wales and Ireland the following is the current situation:

"Overall, the score migration [overnight work] is taking longer than expected, due to a much higher than anticipated number of scores which have been changed in some way on CDH during October.

We request your understanding that ALL calls for bulk data downloads such as score listings, member listings and handicap indices, be postponed until tomorrow. "

For this reason, we ask that you do not install the software update today, or if you have installed it, please wait until tomorrow when the service should be available.

We hope we can resume your use of our software tomorrow, or earlier if we are given the go ahead sooner by DotGolf._


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Really, my HDID still shows CONGU handicap
		
Click to expand...

Ours are ok, they are looking at completing task by tomorrow morning so you might be at the end of the queue.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Write folks, I now have a major issue occurring.

Last week I checked that all emails and dob where on the dashboard DB, I know have members on last minute dot com trying to register and they can’t, when I go into the dashboard their emails and DOB have disappeared and on V1 and HDID showing no handicap.
Can anyone lay there hands on the EG WHS email address before I do a Rege Perrin


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Write folks, I now have a major issue occurring.

Last week I checked that all emails and dob where on the dashboard DB, I know have members on last minute dot com trying to register and they can’t, when I go into the dashboard their emails and DOB have disappeared and on V1 and HDID showing no handicap.
Can anyone lay there hands on the EG WHS email address before I do a Rege Perrin
		
Click to expand...

Please don't scare me, after the effort I put in last week in entering these manually.

On Club V1, the directory is now working again. There is a WHS Scoring Record, but no scores are shown. I expect this will be updated at some point in next 24 hours. Maybe.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

whs.support@englandgolf.org


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Please don't scare me, after the effort I put in last week in entering these manually.

On Club V1, the directory is now working again. There is a WHS Scoring Record, but no scores are shown. I expect this will be updated at some point in next 24 hours. Maybe.
		
Click to expand...

Mines problem is the other way around, index on dashboard but not showing on V1.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

This thing where players a re shown to be in the wrong county must vary by individual rather than club...our Handicap Sec has just emailed me to say according to England Golf he's in the top 22% in Surrey....my account correctly has me in Suffolk...so its not an entire club that gets put in the wrong county...its individuals.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			This thing where players a re shown to be in the wrong county must vary by individual rather than club...our Handicap Sec has just emailed me to say according to England Golf he's in the top 22% in Surrey....my account correctly has me in Suffolk...so its not an entire club that gets put in the wrong county...its individuals.
		
Click to expand...

One member has just text me to say apparently he is in the Top 9% in London. We are in Lincolnshire. 

My Index was 8.6, but now it is 7.1. But, it looks like the vast majority of golfers have the wrong Index anyway, so that is probably not unusual. 

In the months leading up to this, I seem to remember supporters of WHS using words like "simple" to describe how it will work. Perhaps that will one day be the case. Maybe. However, not so simple at the moment, bit of an embarrassment really.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			This thing where players a re shown to be in the wrong county must vary by individual rather than club...our Handicap Sec has just emailed me to say according to England Golf he's in the top 22% in Surrey....my account correctly has me in Suffolk...so its not an entire club that gets put in the wrong county...its individuals.
		
Click to expand...

Another member pointed out, from the looks of this forum, when they get the Region wrong that a golfer is a member off, the incorrect region is close alphabetically. So, in your case Suffolk and Surrey. In my case Lincolnshire and London. Probably not a coincidence


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Another member pointed out, from the looks of this forum, when they get the Region wrong that a golfer is a member off, the incorrect region is close alphabetically. So, in your case Suffolk and Surrey. In my case Lincolnshire and London. Probably not a coincidence
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like a "lookup table" is being offset by one place....Excel has a vlookup function where if you dont tell it what to do if it cannot find an exact match for whatever you are looking up, it selects its answer from the next available option. Given that the "wrong" county always seems to be the next county alphabetically (rather than the previous county) it sounds like something similar is happening.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 2, 2020)

Comments re England Golf Platform!

There seem to be an issue with the HI's being displayed / printer when using the platform tools.

We have a player who when you enter his name it shows a HI of 6.7 in the pop-up box. If you select him it shows a HI of 7.8 on his header record. If you look at his rounds (over 20) the HI on his last round is quoted as 7.3 and if you run the handicap print from ythe members page for all members it is back to 6.7.

I spent a long time in the IT industry and this is programming 101 stuff!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Comments re England Golf Platform!

There seem to be an issue with the HI's being displayed / printer when using the platform tools.

We have a player who when you enter his name it shows a HI of 6.7 in the pop-up box. If you select him it shows a HI of 7.8 on his header record. If you look at his rounds (over 20) the HI on his last round is quoted as 7.3 and if you run the handicap print from ythe members page for all members it is back to 6.7.

I spent a long time in the IT industry and this is programming 101 stuff!
		
Click to expand...

Do you think somebody is getting told off somewhere by an angry England Golf boss?


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you think somebody is getting told off somewhere by an angry England Golf boss?
		
Click to expand...

Without wishing anyone ill - I hope so because this isn't good enough.

All the hype and posters doesn't mask the fact this hasn't gone well.


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2020)

Firstly apologies, I don't fit the brief for posting here, but think this is the best place. 
Are any of you aware of masterscoreboard not going to be adjusted to cope with WHS? 
Apparently a member is claiming a nearby club is moving off due to this reason.
Thanks


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

IainP said:



			Firstly apologies, I don't fit the brief for posting here, but think this is the best place.
Are any of you aware of masterscoreboard not going to be adjusted to cope with WHS?
Apparently a member is claiming a nearby club is moving off due to this reason.
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Is that the members end of HandicapMaster.


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is that the members end of HandicapMaster.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry yes it is. I meant to write both!


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## rulefan (Nov 2, 2020)

IainP said:



			Firstly apologies, I don't fit the brief for posting here, but think this is the best place.
Are any of you aware of masterscoreboard not going to be adjusted to cope with WHS?
Apparently a member is claiming a nearby club is moving off due to this reason.
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I wonder if is an issue about just what MS is permitted to display. Or that MS becomes redundant in that WHS will show everything (or will it?)


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I wonder if is an issue about just what MS is permitted to display. Or that MS becomes redundant in that WHS will show everything (or will it?)
		
Click to expand...

I did think that myself that part of what these systems did is now centralised.
Generally on the members side you can see all members' handicaps which is useful when playing matchplay etc.


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## rulefan (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is that the members end of HandicapMaster.
		
Click to expand...

Master Scoreboard is to HandicapMaster as HowDidIDo is to ClubV1 (sort of).


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

IainP said:



			I did think that myself that part of what these systems did is now centralised.
Generally on the members side you can see all members' handicaps which is useful when playing matchplay etc.
		
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Just chatted with a member of a club that uses it and they had to pay for an upgrade to get it working


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## rulefan (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just chatted with a member of a club that uses it and they had to pay for an upgrade to get it working
		
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Was that to get it built into the club website?


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Was that to get it built into the club website?
		
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Yep


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## rosecott (Nov 2, 2020)

IainP said:



			Firstly apologies, I don't fit the brief for posting here, but think this is the best place.
Are any of you aware of masterscoreboard not going to be adjusted to cope with WHS?
Apparently a member is claiming a nearby club is moving off due to this reason.
Thanks
		
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That is nonsense. Handicapmaster is not releasing their WHS software upgrade until the WHS portal finally stops calculating and recalculating. All my members' playing records are on the portal exactly as they are on the Handicapmaster software. The problem is fairly and squarely with the WHS portal. When the WHS portal is running correctly, Masterscoreboard will be available for Player Score Input. As to asking to pay for an upgrade, they have advised customers that there will be an additional charge as they have to charge a royalty payment of £149 plus VAT per year.demanded by EG>

From Handicapmaster today:

"
We upgraded cloud systems yesterday in readiness for today's launch of the World Handicap System, and released our new version 10 software today.

Unfortunately, we have been informed by DotGolf [services provider to England Golf, Wales Golf and Golf Ireland] that for England, Wales and Ireland the following is the current situation:

"*Overall, the score migration [overnight work] is taking longer than expected, due to a much higher than anticipated number of scores which have been changed in some way on CDH during October.

We request your understanding that ALL calls for bulk data downloads such as score listings, member listings and handicap indices, be postponed until tomorrow*. "

For this reason, we ask that you do not install the HandicapMaster update to version 10 today, or if you have installed it, please wait until tomorrow when the service should be available. 

Perhaps you should not have ventured onto this thread with unsubstantiated tittletattle


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

So, I've e-mailed WHS twice in last couple of days, but no reply. Perhaps going into lockdown will be a blessing for us all.

I have a member who is meant to be playing in a competition on Wednesday, but he has no WHS record at all, despite having a CDH number. Now that Club V1 has settled a little, when I open his record, it says he has no handicap, but the following Note is made:

"This person has a CDH ID but no corresponding CDH Member UID so it is not possible to communicate with the CDH"

Anyone have any thoughts what causes this?


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## fenwayrich (Nov 3, 2020)

There seems to have been considerable progress overnight in some areas. Our wrong tee problem has been corrected and the scores are now based on the most recent rounds. Might still be a few glitches, but at least members who have registered can see a realistic number.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

Another additional issue. A member entered a Casual Round yesterday using the HDID app. It appears on their scoring history in Club V1 (although no option to certify the score, so I guess that is just automatic). However, it does not appear on their WHS Scoring History in the Portal


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Another additional issue. A member entered a Casual Round yesterday using the HDID app. It appears on their scoring history in Club V1 (although no option to certify the score, so I guess that is just automatic). However, it does not appear on their WHS Scoring History in the Portal
		
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The ISV's are not sending anything to the WHS until it has settled down with the Nov 1 CDH data


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, I've e-mailed WHS twice in last couple of days, but no reply. Perhaps going into lockdown will be a blessing for us all.

I have a member who is meant to be playing in a competition on Wednesday, but he has no WHS record at all, despite having a CDH number. Now that Club V1 has settled a little, when I open his record, it says he has no handicap, but the following Note is made:

"This person has a CDH ID but no corresponding CDH Member UID so it is not possible to communicate with the CDH"

Anyone have any thoughts what causes this?
		
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Yes we have some changed CDH numbers for members which prevent handicaps being displayed and also some totally missing scores but a lot better than it was.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The ISV's are not sending anything to the WHS until it has settled down with the Nov 1 CDH data
		
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ETA?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

I sacrificed a days leave today to go through the review. What a waste of time.

Firstly, WHS was really slow when I started, and I tended to be greeted with a screen saying Bad Gateway at times (I'm not sure if that is a WHS issue or just my computer, but it doesn't happen for any other site)

However, I managed to get 1 score in. Then I put in a second score, and as soon as I hit save, I got the message:

Could not save this score. Failed to save score. 508 Provided adjusted gross value (118) does not match calculated value (119)

I didn't provide an adjusted gross score. I simply entered the gross scores. Underneath the bad holes, the system showed the adjusted gross value. The total gross was 123, which is correctly shown. The calculated value in brackets is shown as 118, which ties up with the individual hole reductions. So, I've no idea where 119 is coming from. Not shown anywhere apart from on the Error message


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I sacrificed a days leave today to go through the review. What a waste of time.

Firstly, WHS was really slow when I started, and I tended to be greeted with a screen saying Bad Gateway at times (I'm not sure if that is a WHS issue or just my computer, but it doesn't happen for any other site)

However, I managed to get 1 score in. Then I put in a second score, and as soon as I hit save, I got the message:

Could not save this score. Failed to save score. 508 Provided adjusted gross value (118) does not match calculated value (119)

I didn't provide an adjusted gross score. I simply entered the gross scores. Underneath the bad holes, the system showed the adjusted gross value. The total gross was 123, which is correctly shown. The calculated value in brackets is shown as 118, which ties up with the individual hole reductions. So, I've no idea where 119 is coming from. Not shown anywhere apart from on the Error message
		
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Where were you trying to enter this score? Your ISV or WHS directly?


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

The only major issue we have now is that all 9 hole competition scores are showing on the wrong tees. But we have direct communication that they will fix it today.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you think somebody is getting told off somewhere by an angry England Golf boss?
		
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No. He's too busy whinging at the government about why he wasn't consulted over the lockdown decision rather than sorting out issues of his own organisations making.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Where were you trying to enter this score? Your ISV or WHS directly?
		
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WHS Direct. Happens all the time. I have to manually reduce the gross score myself. I think this was raised by one of you in the early days


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			WHS Direct. Happens all the time. I have to manually reduce the gross score myself. I think this was raised by one of you in the early days
		
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might have been me when I was lamenting the fact that initial cards for handicap hadn't been included in a players WHS scoring record. I had raised it with the folks at the WHS and they told me that the system never takes in the first 2 scores for new members because the system needs a handicap to be able to store the scores. Utter nonsense...especially as it's not taking in any of the first THREE cards for handicap.

The irony is that for all these historical scores that have been uploaded to the WHS from CDH....there is no hole by hole score data....you log in to your account and click on any of your scoring records and it has no scores listed for each hole...just an adjusted gross score. Wouldn't take any effort at all for the WHS to include the missing scores to help flesh out players scoring records.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

I've noticed you can't get your CDH ID from howdidido anymore. So, have just had one member text me saying he didn't know what it is, can't get it from howdidido anymore, and needs it for logging into WHS. I can see this being the start of hundreds of texts wanting to get CDH ID


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've noticed you can't get your CDH ID from howdidido anymore. So, have just had one member text me saying he didn't know what it is, can't get it from howdidido anymore, and needs it for logging into WHS. I can see this being the start of hundreds of texts wanting to get CDH ID
		
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Cant see it on Masterscoreboard either. Expect I will be seeing an influx of emails as well. 

Also can no longer print off your own handicap certificate and there doesn't seem to be an option in the WHS to do this....so that's a bit more unnecessary work this system will generate for us. Also Masterscoreboard has a message saying it cannot publish handicap lists due to "regulations". Players cannot even see their own index.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've noticed you can't get your CDH ID from howdidido anymore. So, have just had one member text me saying he didn't know what it is, can't get it from howdidido anymore, and needs it for logging into WHS. I can see this being the start of hundreds of texts wanting to get CDH ID
		
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I can see my CDHID when logging on to HDID just now. That along with my new HI, which is the same as it's showing on the EG WHS portal. So hopefully something that is just still updating in the background for you!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I can see my CDHID when logging on to HDID just now. That along with my new HI, which is the same as it's showing on the EG WHS portal. So hopefully something that is just still updating in the background for you!
		
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O yeah. It used to be on the menu screen "Handicap". Looks like it is now shown under your Profile


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

CDH No and the ability to print handicap cert are still available on HDID


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

I have created a New Member on the WHS Portal. I have entered his 3 scores, and it has given him an Index of 33.8.

Question is, if he was to enter a competition run through ClubV1, how does Club V1 know how to link his score to the correct person on WHS? I cannot see an option on Club V1 to link him with the new CDH number (Membership Number) I created on WHS, just an option to manually type his Index.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I have created a New Member on the WHS Portal. I have entered his 3 scores, and it has given him an Index of 33.8.

Question is, if he was to enter a competition run through ClubV1, how does Club V1 know how to link his score to the correct person on WHS? I cannot see an option on Club V1 to link him with the new CDH number (Membership Number) I created on WHS, just an option to manually type his Index.
		
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Thinkni saw a sync button on V1, I’ll have a look around in between the cricket.

One question, why are you doing it by the dashboard and not your ISV?


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've noticed you can't get your CDH ID from howdidido anymore. So, have just had one member text me saying he didn't know what it is, can't get it from howdidido anymore, and needs it for logging into WHS. I can see this being the start of hundreds of texts wanting to get CDH ID
		
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There is a report function on the WHS Dashboard. Go to member handicap listing, and you can get all members CDH number and Handicap Index. Download the report and mail it to members. Simples.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I have created a New Member on the WHS Portal. I have entered his 3 scores, and it has given him an Index of 33.8.

Question is, if he was to enter a competition run through ClubV1, how does Club V1 know how to link his score to the correct person on WHS? I cannot see an option on Club V1 to link him with the new CDH number (Membership Number) I created on WHS, just an option to manually type his Index.
		
Click to expand...

When your in the members records go to 

Club V1 scoring record

Hit the plus button

is that what your after.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			There is a report function on the WHS Dashboard. Go to member handicap listing, and you can get all members CDH number and Handicap Index. Download the report and mail it to members. Simples.
		
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One of the intitia instructions when CDH came out was not to give global access to other members CDH numbers


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

A good fun report to look at is the Handicap Comparison Report. We have a guy who only has 3 acceptable scores in. He was a bandit though. His CONGU handicap was 11.2. Handicap Index now 0.3  
Conversely, we have a lady member who used to be off 36.7. HI now 46.9.


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			One of the intitia instructions when CDH came out was not to give global access to other members CDH numbers
		
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If its that or answer 700 emails, I know what I would do.


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

The CDH numbers were listed on the old Members Handicap printouts that we used to pin up religiously on the wall of the locker room. I dont see the difference between that and an email.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			If its that or answer 700 emails, I know what I would do.
		
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Solved anyway as it is on HDID.  I suppose it’s easy to find a reason to do something your not supposed to do


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			The CDH numbers were listed on the old Members Handicap printouts that we used to pin up religiously on the wall of the locker room. I dont see the difference between that and an email.
		
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Neither was appropriate


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			There is a report function on the WHS Dashboard. Go to member handicap listing, and you can get all members CDH number and Handicap Index. Download the report and mail it to members. Simples.
		
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It's not that simple, when you want members to be able to get it themselves. Because it doesn't take them long to misplace that e-mail. As most are used to using howdidido (competition players anyway), it makes things much easier for me.


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It's not that simple, when you want members to be able to get it themselves. Because it doesn't take them long to misplace that e-mail. As most are used to using howdidido (competition players anyway), it makes things much easier for me.
		
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Where exactly is the hyperlink on HDID to see a Handicap cert? Under handicap, mine only says my index and 'No History Available'.


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Where exactly is the hyperlink on HDID to see a Handicap cert? Under handicap, mine only says my index and 'No History Available'.
		
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Found it! Its in your profile. Unfortunately it is a CONGU only handicap cert, so my handicap on this cert is 'N/A'.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			The irony is that for all these historical scores that have been uploaded to the WHS from CDH....there is no hole by hole score data....you log in to your account and click on any of your scoring records and it has no scores listed for each hole...just an adjusted gross score. Wouldn't take any effort at all for the WHS to include the missing scores to help flesh out players scoring records.
		
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CDH has never held hole by hole data. There has been no requirement for clubs to hold historic data on their ISV systems. Where would the WHS get hole by hole scores from?


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Found it! Its in your profile. Unfortunately it is a CONGU only handicap cert, so my handicap on this cert is 'N/A'.
		
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Your right, hopefully they will sort that , actually there is no need, I haven’t used a cert for a few years now, just give my CDH No.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Our head green keeper is in Portugal and is going to see about putting in a card tomorrow, will be interesting to see what happens.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Our head green keeper is in Portugal and is going to see about putting in a card tomorrow, will be interesting to see what happens.
		
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For the present it has be returned within your own authority area. I don't think the following is in place yet.

_How do I return my score at home? From Abroad? Who is responsible for this, and do I need to follow it up? 
It is hoped that the technology will be in place to help with the posting of scores at the venue at which you play. This would be automatically processed. 
England Golf 2018_


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## tnjgb (Nov 3, 2020)

I may have made an error in my analysis but from what I can see there is an error in the IG Software or England Golf calculation of the WHS Playing Handicap.

The formula for the Playing Handicap is the Course Handicap multiplied by the Handicap Allowance.

The IG software appears to take the ROUNDED Course Handicap (e.g. 15 for an 15.4) and multiplies it by the Handicap Allowance (e.g. 95% for a Stableford) then rounds it, so 15*0.95=14.25 a Playing Handicap of 14.

I think the calculation should be 15.4*0.95=14.63 or a Playing Handicap of 15.

The CONGU document "England Golf Rules of Handicapping" in section 6.1 says about the Course Handicap "the full calculated value is retained and rounding occurs only AFTER the Playing Handicap calculation."

Can anyone confirm what I think or show me where I have misunderstood?


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

tnjgb said:



			I may have made an error in my analysis but from what I can see there is an error in the IG Software or England Golf calculation of the WHS Playing Handicap.

The formula for the Playing Handicap is the Course Handicap multiplied by the Handicap Allowance.

The IG software appears to take the ROUNDED Course Handicap (e.g. 15 for an 15.4) and multiplies it by the Handicap Allowance (e.g. 95% for a Stableford) then rounds it, so 15*0.95=14.25 a Playing Handicap of 14.

I think the calculation should be 15.4*0.95=14.63 or a Playing Handicap of 15.

The CONGU document "England Golf Rules of Handicapping" in section 6.1 says about the Course Handicap "the full calculated value is retained and rounding occurs only AFTER the Playing Handicap calculation."

Can anyone confirm what I think or show me where I have misunderstood?
		
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Surely the Course Handicap is always an integer. It is on the conversion charts.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

tnjgb said:



			I may have made an error in my analysis but from what I can see there is an error in the IG Software or England Golf calculation of the WHS Playing Handicap.

The formula for the Playing Handicap is the Course Handicap multiplied by the Handicap Allowance.

The IG software appears to take the ROUNDED Course Handicap (e.g. 15 for an 15.4) and multiplies it by the Handicap Allowance (e.g. 95% for a Stableford) then rounds it, so 15*0.95=14.25 a Playing Handicap of 14.

I think the calculation should be 15.4*0.95=14.63 or a Playing Handicap of 15.

The CONGU document "England Golf Rules of Handicapping" in section 6.1 says about the Course Handicap "the full calculated value is retained and rounding occurs only AFTER the Playing Handicap calculation."

Can anyone confirm what I think or show me where I have misunderstood?
		
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England Golf has said 
_"Most players wont know what that _(ie decimal value of CH)_ is without a calculator so we are saying use the course handicap value from the chart and then take the allowance"_

Maybe IG or the other ISVs haven't been told yet.


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## IanMcC (Nov 3, 2020)

Does anyone know how we now check for bandits at open comps who come from another country? I live and play in Wales, and we get lots of English and a few Scots playing in our Open comps. I used to be able to use CDH Lookup on ClubV1 or the CDH database on GolfBox. Golfbox is gone, ClubV1 only recognises Welsh numbers, and my WHS dashboard also will not look outside Wales. Only this Summer I had to DQ a pair of Liverpudlian lads. One had a handicap, the other 'just put down 16'.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

(Handicapmaster user)


rulefan said:



			CDH has never held hole by hole data. There has been no requirement for clubs to hold historic data on their ISV systems. Where would the WHS get hole by hole scores from?
		
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Sorry...by interpreting my post as two separate points (and only quoting half my post) you have you managed to miss the point. 

My whole post was about the first 3 cards for handicap not being included in a players WHS scoring record. What I was doing was pointing out that the historical data in the WHS has no hole by hole score data (because it was never part of the CDH data) and has only imported the gross adjusted score for a players rounds. If the adjusted gross score is the only "score element" that was imported....why is it that the adjusted gross scores for initial cards for handicap were not included in the upload.....what made it so difficult for them to import those scores as well?


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## Jimbof (Nov 3, 2020)

The main reason that many initial cards for handicap were not uploaded to the CDH is that the ISV software in many instances simply did not upload those scores despite being asked to do so.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

Jimbof said:



			The main reason that many initial cards for handicap were not uploaded to the CDH is that the ISV software in many instances simply did not upload those scores despite being asked to do so.
		
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The scores in the WHS were not imported from the ISV software. They were imported from the CDH.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

tnjgb said:



			I may have made an error in my analysis but from what I can see there is an error in the IG Software or England Golf calculation of the WHS Playing Handicap.

The formula for the Playing Handicap is the Course Handicap multiplied by the Handicap Allowance.

The IG software appears to take the ROUNDED Course Handicap (e.g. 15 for an 15.4) and multiplies it by the Handicap Allowance (e.g. 95% for a Stableford) then rounds it, so 15*0.95=14.25 a Playing Handicap of 14.

I think the calculation should be 15.4*0.95=14.63 or a Playing Handicap of 15.

The CONGU document "England Golf Rules of Handicapping" in section 6.1 says about the Course Handicap "the full calculated value is retained and rounding occurs only AFTER the Playing Handicap calculation."

Can anyone confirm what I think or show me where I have misunderstood?
		
Click to expand...

England  Wales and Ireland have gone for rounding of Course Handicap before applying the equation for Playing Handicap
Scotland have not.

See guidance on the Rules section G6-2a


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## Jimbof (Nov 3, 2020)

I meant that the ISV software did not upload the Inital Handicap Scores to the CDH in the first place, hence they are not there for transition to WHS.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Jimbof said:



			I meant that the ISV software did not upload the Inital Handicap Scores to the CDH in the first place, hence they are not there for transition to WHS.
		
Click to expand...

Yes. Only the Initial Handicap Allocation is in the CDH


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## nickjdavis (Nov 4, 2020)

Jimbof said:



			I meant that the ISV software did not upload the Inital Handicap Scores to the CDH in the first place, hence they are not there for transition to WHS.
		
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Well our ISV must have done because I can clearly see my players scores for initial handicap in the old CDH.....here are just two examples of many new members from across this summer.


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## tnjgb (Nov 4, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			England  Wales and Ireland have gone for rounding of Course Handicap before applying the equation for Playing Handicap
Scotland have not.

See guidance on the Rules section G6-2a
		
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Thanks I had not seen that advice (https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf), it seems to go against what CONGU originally said.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 4, 2020)

Has anyone entered any scores (e.g comp results, supplementaries or cards for handicap) since we went live?

We've added a new player and put his cards in for initial handicap but don't seem to be able to upload them to the WHS...either by forcing it or via automatic upload. Likewise we've modified a couple of players details and they havent gone to the WHS either.

This is using HandicapMaster.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 4, 2020)

Is it safe to post scores yet?

The individual handicap indexes are still moving around and certainly on Club V1 several differ from the EG Platform.


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## rosecott (Nov 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Has anyone entered any scores (e.g comp results, supplementaries or cards for handicap) since we went live?

We've added a new player and put his cards in for initial handicap but don't seem to be able to upload them to the WHS...either by forcing it or via automatic upload. Likewise we've modified a couple of players details and they havent gone to the WHS either.

This is using HandicapMaster.
		
Click to expand...

Also using Handicapmaster. We ran a "counting competition" yesterday. I had a minor issue with 2 Away players coming up as no handicap available - their club was on V1. This morning I was able to add their scores and finalise the competition. As I understand it, Handicapmaster are uploading to WHS in the background on a constant basis. As I only finalised the competition this morning, I assume the handicap adjustments won't happen until midnight.


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## rosecott (Nov 4, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Is it safe to post scores yet?

The individual handicap indexes are still moving around and certainly on Club V1 several differ from the EG Platform.
		
Click to expand...

From late Monday, our HIs seemed to have stabilised. When I entered scores yesterday afternoon, the HIs came up exactly as I expected.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 4, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Also using Handicapmaster. We ran a "counting competition" yesterday. I had a minor issue with 2 Away players coming up as no handicap available - their club was on V1. This morning I was able to add their scores and finalise the competition. As I understand it, Handicapmaster are uploading to WHS in the background on a constant basis. As I only finalised the competition this morning, I assume the handicap adjustments won't happen until midnight.
		
Click to expand...

We got that message as well...about uploading constantly in the background. The scores have been in the HM system since yesterday morning but do not seem to want to transfer to the WHS.

I've posted a message on the HandicpMaster Forums...will see what response I get.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 4, 2020)

Another WHS issue is that players who had no club placeholder set at the time of data transfer in CDH (because they'd left their old club and had yet to join a new one) no longer have any record in the WHS....so when they come to join a new club, there is no playing history to transfer (because the CDH records never got transferred to the WHS on Nov 1st because they were not a club member)...effectively they will have to start from scratch building up a scoring record...even though they had a perfectly viable record with many scores.


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

I yesterday I had on corrupted record on the WHS dashboard I know have 10, can’t get in them can’t see them only data I see is a CDH No.

Emailed EG but as they haven’t answered 1 email in the last week I’m not holding my breath.


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## rosecott (Nov 4, 2020)

Like the rest of you, I have been under siege from members wanting answers and I've found it more and more difficult to concentrate and find the answers. I am convinced - but have been unable to find it anywhere - that EG said they would be making a mobile phone app available on 2nd November which would give players instant access to their HI. Am I imagining this?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Has anyone entered any scores (e.g comp results, supplementaries or cards for handicap) since we went live?

We've added a new player and put his cards in for initial handicap but don't seem to be able to upload them to the WHS...either by forcing it or via automatic upload. Likewise we've modified a couple of players details and they havent gone to the WHS either.

This is using HandicapMaster.
		
Click to expand...

I have put Casual rounds in, and gone back and put the first 3 cards for handicap that the WHS missed, for about 20 players. However, all was done directly in WHS, not Club V1.

One guy entered a casual round directly using howdidido, though that has not been put into WHS yet. That was about 3 days ago. I heard Club V1 will not send scores over until things settle down?

As mentioned earlier, also created one New Member on WHS and entered his 3 cards. He is also on our Club V1, but still no idea how Club V1 links their record with the one on WHS. I thought I would simply need to enter the Membership Number WHS created for the player into Club V1.


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Like the rest of you, I have been under siege from members wanting answers and I've found it more and more difficult to concentrate and find the answers. I am convinced - but have been unable to find it anywhere - that EG said they would be making a mobile phone app available on 2nd November which would give players instant access to their HI. Am I imagining this?
		
Click to expand...

During the briefings given by EG , I think it was Gemma giving the presentations she always said that an app would be available,  I just assumed it was one provided by the relevant ISV


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I have put Casual rounds in, and gone back and put the first 3 cards for handicap that the WHS missed, for about 20 players. However, all was done directly in WHS, not Club V1.

One guy entered a casual round directly using howdidido, though that has not been put into WHS yet. That was about 3 days ago. I heard Club V1 will not send scores over until things settle down?

As mentioned earlier, also created one New Member on WHS and entered his 3 cards. He is also on our Club V1, but still no idea how Club V1 links their record with the one on WHS. I thought I would simply need to enter the Membership Number WHS created for the player into Club V1.
		
Click to expand...

I have asked via email.several times how everything is linked but no response coming from puzzle palace


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 4, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Like the rest of you, I have been under siege from members wanting answers and I've found it more and more difficult to concentrate and find the answers. I am convinced - but have been unable to find it anywhere - that EG said they would be making a mobile phone app available on 2nd November which would give players instant access to their HI. Am I imagining this?
		
Click to expand...

I'm assuming they mean My England Golf.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I have asked via email.several times how everything is linked but no response coming from puzzle palace
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm not getting any replies anymore. I think they've had enough


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm assuming they mean My England Golf.
		
Click to expand...

Is that an app or are you on a out the members web site.


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## upsidedown (Nov 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			During the briefings given by EG , I think it was Gemma giving the presentations she always said that an app would be available,  I just assumed it was one provided by the relevant ISV
		
Click to expand...

There is one . an early version. just search England golf on App store

There is a Find a course which shows you what your Course Handicap will be at any given course


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## rosecott (Nov 4, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm assuming they mean My England Golf.
		
Click to expand...

Glad that it was a simple answer


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			There is one . an early version. just search England golf on App store

There is a Find a course which shows you what your Course Handicap will be at any given course
		
Click to expand...

Is that Apple as I only have play store and there's nothing there I can find.


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## upsidedown (Nov 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is that Apple as I only have play store and there's nothing there I can find.
		
Click to expand...

Play store MyEG (early access)


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

Can’t find it unfortunately


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## upsidedown (Nov 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Can’t find it unfortunately
		
Click to expand...


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## nickjdavis (Nov 4, 2020)

Has anyone added a "new member" in the last couple of days so that a new ID number is generated for them?

We are trying to add a player but cannot find how to get an ID number generated. When we try to add a player directly in the Dotgolf portal it auto suggests a membership number but then goes on to say that this member is allready in use!!! When we try to add a member in our ISV software Masterscoreboard, it happily adds the member but no ID number is generated. No equivalent record is created in the WHS portal and we cannot upload his scores for initial handicap.

Anyone using HandicapMaster who has successfully added a new member and had a new ID number generated? would be interested to hear how you did it!!! This should be basic simple stuff but neither myself or my handicap secretary can add a member so he gets an ID number generated!!!


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## nickjdavis (Nov 4, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I have put Casual rounds in, and gone back and put the first 3 cards for handicap that the WHS missed, for about 20 players. However, all was done directly in WHS, not Club V1.

One guy entered a casual round directly using howdidido, though that has not been put into WHS yet. That was about 3 days ago. I heard Club V1 will not send scores over until things settle down?

As mentioned earlier, also created one New Member on WHS and entered his 3 cards. He is also on our Club V1, but still no idea how Club V1 links their record with the one on WHS. I thought I would simply need to enter the Membership Number WHS created for the player into Club V1.
		
Click to expand...

I played a round today and have entered it via our ISV software....hit the £send scores to WHS platform" button and it was there in my WHS/England Golf record in an instant.


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Has anyone added a "new member" in the last couple of days so that a new ID number is generated for them?

We are trying to add a player but cannot find how to get an ID number generated. When we try to add a player directly in the Dotgolf portal it auto suggests a membership number but then goes on to say that this member is allready in use!!! When we try to add a member in our ISV software Masterscoreboard, it happily adds the member but no ID number is generated. No equivalent record is created in the WHS portal and we cannot upload his scores for initial handicap.

Anyone using HandicapMaster who has successfully added a new member and had a new ID number generated? would be interested to hear how you did it!!! This should be basic simple stuff but neither myself or my handicap secretary can add a member so he gets an ID number generated!!!
		
Click to expand...

I added a member who had a CDH Number and he hasn’t been added to the dashboard. The whole thing is now becoming unworkable and taking up hours of time from the user end with no support from those that was supposed to implement the system.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 4, 2020)

Question for the Club V1 users

Has anyone entered a casual round as a stableford round? When i tried as soon as I put a zero in it converted the round to strokeplay and made it NR.

Under the old version you were allowed to put in 0 for a blob and it calculated fine.


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## jim8flog (Nov 4, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Question for the Club V1 users

Has anyone entered a casual round as a stableford round? When i tried as soon as I put a zero in it converted the round to strokeplay and made it NR.

Under the old version you were allowed to put in 0 for a blob and it calculated fine.
		
Click to expand...


What is interesting is this

GB (2) (Appendix B) 5. 

Score Type Designations
The codes used in GB&I in the full version of the Handicap Record to identify the score type and format of play are:
Type: C – Competition, G – General Play, N – 9-hole score
Format: S – Stroke play, M – Match play
Location: H – Home, A – Away
Other Score type: I- Incomplete round, E – Exceptional score, P – Penalty Score, A – Handicap Adjustment

No mention of stableford

in this circumstance are we now going to ask players to put a score on the card equal to nett double bogey

When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play,
for example, net double bogey or zero Stableford points.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			What is interesting is this

GB (2) (Appendix B) 5.

Score Type Designations
The codes used in GB&I in the full version of the Handicap Record to identify the score type and format of play are:
Type: C – Competition, G – General Play, N – 9-hole score
Format: S – Stroke play, M – Match play
Location: H – Home, A – Away
Other Score type: I- Incomplete round, E – Exceptional score, P – Penalty Score, A – Handicap Adjustment

No mention of stableford

in this circumstance are we now going to ask players to put a score on the card equal to nett double bogey

When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play,
for example, net double bogey or zero Stableford points.
		
Click to expand...

Stableford is designated as singes isn't it?

But you are right - when I entered scores the V1 system changed all stableford rounds to strokeplay and wouldn't work until I entered NDB for each blob.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 5, 2020)

Has anyone processed a full comp on V1 and had it update the EG Platform and handicaps yet?


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Stableford is designated as singes isn't it?

But you are right - when I entered scores the V1 system changed all stableford rounds to strokeplay and wouldn't work until I entered NDB for each blob.
		
Click to expand...

We had a non qualifier yesterday and was able to put a 0 in for a blob, obviously it doesn’t go to the platform (I don’t think, not checked) so it might be different in a Q


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## apj0524 (Nov 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			What is interesting is this

in this circumstance are we now going to ask players to put a score on the card *equal to nett double bogey*

When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play,
for example, net double bogey or zero Stableford points.
		
Click to expand...

NBG of Playing Handicap or HI, or both?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 5, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Has anyone processed a full comp on V1 and had it update the EG Platform and handicaps yet?
		
Click to expand...

I notice our Seniors section played a competition yesterday, and they went to WHS. What worries me is it was advertised as being off white tees. But I notice the system thinks they were off yellows. As a result, the scores are very poor, PCC is shown as +3, and another golfer put in a decent Casual Round, and got a massive cut including a -1 ESR. Investigating


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## Swango1980 (Nov 5, 2020)

It looks like they have fixed the problem where an Error was reported when trying to enter a score higher than nett double bogey


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I added a member who had a CDH Number and he hasn’t been added to the dashboard. The whole thing is now becoming unworkable and taking up hours of time from the user end with no support from those that was supposed to implement the system.
		
Click to expand...

I have that issue as well!!!

New members without a CDH number dont get allocated a CDH (or whatever they've decided to call it) number.

New members who arrive with a CDH number, when added in to our player database don't get added to the WHS dashboard.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I played a round today and have entered it via our ISV software....hit the £send scores to WHS platform" button and it was there in my WHS/England Golf record in an instant.
		
Click to expand...

and this morning I now have a shiny new recalculated index.....so at least that part of the system works!!!!


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

apj0524 said:



			NBG of Playing Handicap or HI, or both?
		
Click to expand...

 All handicap adjustments are made against a players Course Handicap so it would be that.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I notice our Seniors section played a competition yesterday, and they went to WHS. What worries me is it was advertised as being off white tees. But I notice the system thinks they were off yellows. As a result, the scores are very poor, PCC is shown as +3, and another golfer put in a decent Casual Round, and got a massive cut including a -1 ESR. Investigating
		
Click to expand...

This is getting wierd.

I put in a number of casual rounds from Monday on Wednesday this week as the system wasn't working on Monday.

Having been forced to put them in a strokeplay (Club v1 issue) they now show on the EG platform with a PCA of 2.

Didn't think there were enough rounds to trigger this and also thought if you were past midnight they were excluded from the PCA.

Posting date was 4/11 but round date 2/11 on EG platform.


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## rosecott (Nov 5, 2020)

IainP said:



			Firstly apologies, I don't fit the brief for posting here, but think this is the best place.
Are any of you aware of masterscoreboard not going to be adjusted to cope with WHS?
Apparently a member is claiming a nearby club is moving off due to this reason.
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Just an update for this poster.

Using Handicapmaster, I have successfully processed a men's QR, a ladies QR and 2 General rounds. Player Score Input via Masterscoreboard is working perfectly and all scores appear on the WHS platform with any appropriate HI adjustments. Please pass this on to your friend.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

We have just found what appears to have been a problem the interface between V1 and the CDH in 2018.
It seems that scores from a number of players are not recorded in the CH but V1 claim that their audit trail shows they were correctly sent to the CDH.
Many of these scores would have been in the player's best 8.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

Has anyone tried a "general play" adjustment (eg injury/illness) since 2 Nov? Has it affected records retrospectively?


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## rosecott (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has anyone tried a "general play" adjustment (eg injury/illness) since 2 Nov? Has it affected records retrospectively?
		
Click to expand...

We have delayed our Handicap Committee meeting until 15th November to let things settle down before we do anything like that.


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

What we need on this particular thread is @rulefan to get his insider to try and get someone on the WHS team to monitor and post on this thread. To many questions with no answer forthcoming from EG.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What we need on this particular thread is @rulefan to get his insider to try and get someone on the WHS team to monitor and post on this thread. To many questions with no answer forthcoming from EG.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. The problem is that they are so inundated that I can't get them to respond to me


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

Club Systems not responding on chat


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I agree. The problem is that they are so inundated that I can't get them to respond to me 

Click to expand...

Advantage would be to them they sort a bigger number in one go, shame


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

rosecott said:



			We have delayed our Handicap Committee meeting until 15th November to let things settle down before we do anything like that.
		
Click to expand...

As an 'experiment' we have just changed a player's Index. He had been given a significant upward adjustment at the Annual Review in January but this wasn't 'accounted for' in the WHS transition. We successfully changed his Index using WHS but a couple of points may worth a comment. 
We now wanted to add 6.7 to his index but a 'stop' message informed us that a change of over 5 had to be approved by the county. I gave our manager permission but there doesn't seem to be a way of indicating permission at the club level (like the old cat 1 code). 
So we did an adjustment for 4 and the another for 2. However, it doesn't seem that decimal values are permitted.

The on-screen notes/instructions make no mention of these points.

However his Score Listing now shows an Adjustment of 6.0 on all scores (only 15 recorded as it happens) and his Index has gone from *15.3 to 21.0*


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

Anyone found the Annual Review Report on V1


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has anyone tried a "general play" adjustment (eg injury/illness) since 2 Nov? Has it affected records retrospectively?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I have process 2 adjustments - one up and one down. It impacted all 20 records in the playing record for 1 and all 6 for the other.


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yes I have process 2 adjustments - one up and one down. It impacted all 20 records in the playing record for 1 and all 6 for the other.
		
Click to expand...

Where do you do the adjustments


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As an 'experiment' we have just changed a player's Index. He had been given a significant upward adjustment at the Annual Review in January but this wasn't 'accounted for' in the WHS transition. We successfully changed his Index using WHS but a couple of points may worth a comment.
We now wanted to add 6.7 to his index but a 'stop' message informed us that a change of over 5 had to be approved by the county. I gave our manager permission but there doesn't seem to be a way of indicating permission at the club level (like the old cat 1 code).
So we did an adjustment for 4 and the another for 2. However, it doesn't seem that decimal values are permitted.

The on-screen notes/instructions make no mention of these points.

However his Score Listing now shows an Adjustment of 6.0 on all scores (only 15 recorded as it happens) and his Index has gone from *15.3 to 21.0*

Click to expand...

How do you do that?

I went to the members record on the EG platform and made the adjustment.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Where do you do the adjustments
		
Click to expand...

If you go onto the EG Platform and select a player, you land on the "basic" screen for them.
There is an option in the body highlighted as "official Handicap adjustment" - select that and then "apply adjustment".

This gives the option to add or subtract a fixed number to the gross differential for each score in the playing record.

*Be aware I haven't found a way to reverse this so don't try it for fun!*


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			If you go onto the EG Platform and select a player, you land on the "basic" screen for them.
There is an option in the body highlighted as "official Handicap adjustment" - select that and then "apply adjustment".

This gives the option to add or subtract a fixed number to the gross differential for each score in the playing record.

*Be aware I haven't found a way to reverse this so don't try it for fun!*

Click to expand...

Our manager did it ok during the process in #321 that we went through. I was on the other end of the phone but it sounded if the option was pretty obvious.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Our manager did it ok during the process in #321 that we went through. I was on the other end of the phone but it sounded if the option was pretty obvious.
		
Click to expand...

*NB *This was altering the Index itself not an entry in the scoring record.


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

Having just come off phone with Club Systems

Annual review report gone
cards for HC done through casual rounds
Assign CDH No. issues at EG end
new members not showing on DB   EG end


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Having just come off phone with Club Systems

Annual review report gone
cards for HC done through casual rounds
Assign CDH No. issues at EG end
new members not showing on DB   EG end
		
Click to expand...

That could explain things. I had a member contact me because he could not enter an Open with his new or old CDH number. (He had an English one, but I had to generate a Welsh one for him in order to get him on the database.)


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			That could explain things. I had a member contact me because he could not enter an Open with his new or old CDH number. (He had an English one, but I had to generate a Welsh one for him in order to get him on the database.)
		
Click to expand...

Not sure why he had a new or old number, I had no problem adding a new member who had CDH and pulling in someone using the CDH lookup. My only problem is he’s info is not being draped through to the WHS databases.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

Could someone check something for me on the DotGolf portal please

Could you look up a couple of your "away" members records and see if the e-mail field is filled in on the "Basic" tab.

We have a number of away members who's e-mail address is not shown in the field and as a result their handicap index is not being "transferred" to our Handicapmaster software...yet we know that several of them have registered on the England Golf My Account site and in order to do that the system must have held an email address for them.  

For every one of them we hold an email address in Handicapmaster but I'm guessing that the provision of the "personal data" is likely to be controlled by whatever their HOME club sent to the WHS, not what we held in our database. We are wondering if, because these players are "away" members, we are restricted from seeing their email address.

Thanks in advance.


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure why he had a new or old number, I had no problem adding a new member who had CDH and pulling in someone using the CDH lookup. My only problem is he’s info is not being draped through to the WHS databases.
		
Click to expand...

English numbers start with a 1. Welsh numbers start with a 6. I asked Wales Golf about a year ago about people coming from an English Club to us. The answer given was to create a new CDH number.


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Could someone check something for me on the DotGolf portal please

Could you look up a couple of your "away" members records and see if the e-mail field is filled in on the "Basic" tab.

We have a number of away members who's e-mail address is not shown in the field and as a result their handicap index is not being "transferred" to our Handicapmaster software...yet we know that several of them have registered on the England Golf My Account site and in order to do that the system must have held an email address for them. 

For every one of them we hold an email address in Handicapmaster but I'm guessing that the provision of the "personal data" is likely to be controlled by whatever their HOME club sent to the WHS, not what we held in our database. We are wondering if, because these players are "away" members, we are restricted from seeing their email address.

Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

Just checked one of our AWAY members. No email on Basic tab, or under History tab.


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Could someone check something for me on the DotGolf portal please

Could you look up a couple of your "away" members records and see if the e-mail field is filled in on the "Basic" tab.

We have a number of away members who's e-mail address is not shown in the field and as a result their handicap index is not being "transferred" to our Handicapmaster software...yet we know that several of them have registered on the England Golf My Account site and in order to do that the system must have held an email address for them. 

For every one of them we hold an email address in Handicapmaster but I'm guessing that the provision of the "personal data" is likely to be controlled by whatever their HOME club sent to the WHS, not what we held in our database. We are wondering if, because these players are "away" members, we are restricted from seeing their email address.

Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

Our away members unable to see email but their index is showing both on dashboard and V1 as member was registered under their home club.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Just checked one of our AWAY members. No email on Basic tab, or under History tab.
		
Click to expand...

So I'm guessing that on your local ISV software when you produce a "handicap list" that player doesn't have a handicap index and is just listed as "away"....or simply just does not appear at all.

What I discovered earlier was that if you try to run a comp and try to enter a score for one of your "away" members, the system refuses to let you on the basis that it cannot locate a valid handicap.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Our away members unable to see email but their index is showing both on dashboard and V1 as member was registered under their home club.
		
Click to expand...

We can see their Index on the Dotgolf portal but it is not being transferred over to our Handicapmaster software.


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			We can see their Index on the Dotgolf portal but it is not being transferred over to our Handicapmaster software.
		
Click to expand...

Awkward


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			So I'm guessing that on your local ISV software when you produce a "handicap list" that player doesn't have a handicap index and is just listed as "away"....or simply just does not appear at all.

What I discovered earlier was that if you try to run a comp and try to enter a score for one of your "away" members, the system refuses to let you on the basis that it cannot locate a valid handicap.
		
Click to expand...

I cant generate a handicap list from ClubV1 at the moment, but when I check my AWAY member on the directory, it shows his handicap and states AWAY, so I would be surprised if I cant enter his scores.


----------



## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

But Im on ClubV1 and Wales Golf Clubhouse, not the English portal. Might make a difference.


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## fenwayrich (Nov 5, 2020)

Our course was remeasured and re-rated for WHS in September 2019, SSS off whites being increased from 71 to 72 (Course rating 72.0), yellows reduced from 70 to 69 (CR 69.3), and Ladies reds increased from 72 to 73 (CR 73.3) I notice that 2018 and 2019 scores are based upon the new course rating, and although there is sometimes a PCC adjustment, this does not take them down to the CSS on that day. For example, on a day when ladies CSS was 71, the Course Rating less PCC is 72.3.

Am I right in thinking that this is incorrect? There are so many little niggles with the new system that I am beginning to doubt myself.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			But Im on ClubV1 and Wales Golf Clubhouse, not the English portal. Might make a difference.
		
Click to expand...

ahh possibly....might be wise when folks report an issue or ask for someone else to check something that they specify Rose, Daffodil, Shamrock or Thistle


----------



## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			Our course was remeasured and re-rated for WHS in September 2019, SSS off whites being increased from 71 to 72 (Course rating 72.0), yellows reduced from 70 to 69 (CR 69.3), and Ladies reds increased from 72 to 73 (CR 73.3) I notice that 2018 and 2019 scores are based upon the new course rating, and although there is sometimes a PCC adjustment, this does not take them down to the CSS on that day. For example, on a day when ladies CSS was 71, the Course Rating less PCC is 72.3.

Am I right in thinking that this is incorrect? There are so many little niggles with the new system that I am beginning to doubt myself.
		
Click to expand...

What is showing in the PCC column?


----------



## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			ahh possibly....might be wise when folks report an issue or ask for someone else to check something that they specify Rose, Daffodil, Shamrock or Thistle 

Click to expand...

Only Scotland went their own way.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Having just come off phone with Club Systems

Annual review report gone
cards for HC done through casual rounds
Assign CDH No. issues at EG end
new members not showing on DB   EG end
		
Click to expand...

Did they say that comps were processing normally?


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Only Scotland went their own way.
		
Click to expand...

But the Welsh and the Irish use a different portal to interface with their ISV's dont they? I'm assuming that would be the case given that I cannot see any Welsh or Irish clubs in the DotGolf portal that I have access to?

So the fact that the portal is different (even if its based on the same infrastructure/code) is potentially relevant.


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## fenwayrich (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What is showing in the PCC column?
		
Click to expand...

To give an example, one ladies score in July 2019 was gross 96. Course rating 73.3 - PCC 1 = 72.3 so score to slope is 23.7. With a slope of 132 the differential is showing as 20.3. 

However the CSS on that day was 71 (SSS 72 - 1). Should the score before the slope adjustment be 96 - 71 = 25, with the differential becoming 21.4?


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			To give an example, one ladies score in July 2019 was gross 96. Course rating 73.3 - PCC 1 = 72.3 so score to slope is 23.7. With a slope of 132 the differential is showing as 20.3.

However the CSS on that day was 71 (SSS 72 - 1). Should the score before the slope adjustment be 96 - 71 = 25, with the differential becoming 21.4?
		
Click to expand...

I'm puzzled. You say the CR was 73.3 but the SSS is 72. Why not 73?


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## fenwayrich (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm puzzled. You say the CR was 73.3 but the SSS is 72. Why not 73?
		
Click to expand...

In September 2019 the ladies red course was re-rated. Previously the SSS was 72, the reassessment increased it to 73, with a CR of 73.3. Scores in 2018 and 2019 all have a CR of 73.3, but surely it should be 72, with PCC adjustments to reflect the CSS on the day.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			In September 2019 the ladies red course was re-rated. Previously the SSS was 72, the reassessment increased it to 73, with a CR of 73.3. Scores in 2018 and 2019 all have a CR of 73.3, but surely it should be 72, with PCC adjustments to reflect the CSS on the day.
		
Click to expand...

The transition software seem to be having problems with tee rating changes. One difficulty would be with getting a slope from 'old' SSS rated courses


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 6, 2020)

Might explain some of the delays - from Club Systems.

Regarding scores not going to the WHS - Handicap changes and PCC downloaded to ClubV1 at midnight while Scores should upload from ClubV1 to WHS instantly. Now, unfortunately there is an issue with England Golf’s API that would be causing sync issues with the WHS and all ISV providers. We are working with England Golf to resolve these issues however we are experiencing difficulties with due to time zone difference as the company providing the WHS platform is based in New Zealand. We will continue to keep Clubs updated via notifications in ClubV1 and the status page on the Club Systems website here https://www.clubsystems.com/service-status. This will be causing sync issues sending scores to the WHS – I can only advise waiting till these issues have been resolved before we try to resolve scores not uploading to the WHS.


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

From HM

_We understand that DotGolf has re-activated the Handicap Score record API for clubs in England (previously disabled by DotGolf on Tuesday).
However, the data is missing "Score Differential" values and this is causing HandicapMaster software to issue an "Unexpected Error" when the Handicap Record is requested in HandicapMaster.
The DotGolf WHS test system is not exhibiting this problem and we therefore presume this is a problem with the WHS production service only. We await further advice from DotGolf.
HandicapMaster Ltd._


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

I have been waiting 3 days now for an answer on corrupt members data on the dashboard, nothing. Time to bin EG and find an organisation capable of dealing with current problems and run the project. Employing a firm the other side of the world and not insist that they work to our time zone is ludicrous.

Frustrated and close to having enough.


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

Has anyone hag any experience of entering an 'away' general play (supplementary) score. 
Is it supposed to be entered at the 'away' club ot back at home. If the latter, is it in the ISV software or directly in the WHS platform?


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has anyone hag any experience of entering an 'away' general play (supplementary) score.
Is it supposed to be entered at the 'away' club ot back at home. If the latter, is it in the ISV software or directly in the WHS platform?
		
Click to expand...

Go into scores on the dashboard, bring up the player and then do a search on the course, haven’t gone any further but I assume (I know) it’s straightforward from there.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has anyone hag any experience of entering an 'away' general play (supplementary) score.
Is it supposed to be entered at the 'away' club ot back at home. If the latter, is it in the ISV software or directly in the WHS platform?
		
Click to expand...

I think it might have to be done at the actual "away" club. Looking at the release notes for our HandicpMaster software and the changes between the pre and post WHS software I find the following note...

_It is *no longer possible* to enter scores *returned at another venue*, due to WHS licencing restrictions by the UK and Ireland National Unions. _

This seems to imply that you cannot do it and I can find no facility in our ISV software to allow an "away" score to be recorded. Also I cannot find anywhere in the WHS platform where I can enter an away score....restricts me to only adding scores from our home club.

Edited following Old Skiers post...can be done as he describes in the WHS portal.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I think it might have to be done at the actual "away" club. Looking at the release notes for our HandicpMaster software and the changes between the pre and post WHS software I find the following note...

_It is *no longer possible* to enter scores *returned at another venue*, due to WHS licencing restrictions by the UK and Ireland National Unions. _

This seems to imply that you cannot do it and I can find no facility in our ISV software to allow an "away" score to be recorded. Also I cannot find anywhere in the WHS platform where I can enter an away score....restricts me to only adding scores from our home club.

Edited following Old Skiers post...can be done as he describes in the WHS portal.
		
Click to expand...

#355


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## Swango1980 (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has anyone hag any experience of entering an 'away' general play (supplementary) score.
Is it supposed to be entered at the 'away' club ot back at home. If the latter, is it in the ISV software or directly in the WHS platform?
		
Click to expand...

I played at another course on Wednesday. I asked at te pro shop if we could register our rounds and enter our scores afterwards. The pro was a little unsure, but said it was unlikely. Their PSI screen was on, but it can only be used to find members of that club. So, we decided to not bother in the end.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I played at another course on Wednesday. I asked at te pro shop if we could register our rounds and enter our scores afterwards. The pro was a little unsure, but said it was unlikely. Their PSI screen was on, but it can only be used to find members of that club. So, we decided to not bother in the end.
		
Click to expand...

@Swango1980 just had a play on V1 and although I’m not able to test it on a PSI from V1, you do a lookup and put the visitor on the system and enter him as a casual round, I suspect once your on the system you can do it on the PSI the same way as you do a supplementary score.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@Swango1980 just had a play on V1 and although I’m not able to test it on a PSI from V1, you do a lookup and put the visitor on the system and enter him as a casual round, I suspect once your on the system you can do it on the PSI the same way as you do a supplementary score.
		
Click to expand...

Will the player be able to do that themselves on PSI, or will.it be down to someone at club to do it for them, or at least find their name so they can enter score?


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Will the player be able to do that themselves on PSI, or will.it be down to someone at club to do it for them, or at least find their name so they can enter score?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately because of lockdown 2 I can’t go up and try but I suspect yes but at present only when you have entered them as a visitor in the same way as you do for opens.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately because of lockdown 2 I can’t go up and try but I suspect yes but at present only when you have entered them as a visitor in the same way as you do for opens.
		
Click to expand...

If the club need to manually enter them as a visitor, then it will be likely no player who isn't a member will be able to enter casual rounds at my club. I wont be there to do it for him, and I cannot see our staff being able to do it for several reasons.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			If the club need to manually enter them as a visitor, then it will be likely no player who isn't a member will be able to enter casual rounds at my club. I wont be there to do it for him, and I cannot see our staff being able to do it for several reasons.
		
Click to expand...

At the moment that’s the only way I can see it being done at the club but as I posted earlier they could take the card home and get it entered through the dashboard


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Go into scores on the dashboard, bring up the player and then do a search on the course, haven’t gone any further but I assume (I know) it’s straightforward from there.
		
Click to expand...

This doesn't seem to work. Our manager, having found and selected the player, the system proposed our course and the was no option to choose anything else.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			This doesn't seem to work. Our manager, having found and selected the player, the system proposed our course and the was no option to choose anything else.
		
Click to expand...

There is a fiddly drop down menu where you start typing the course name then you select the tee and type in the scores.


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## Chinny (Nov 6, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			To give an example, one ladies score in July 2019 was gross 96. Course rating 73.3 - PCC 1 = 72.3 so score to slope is 23.7. With a slope of 132 the differential is showing as 20.3.

However the CSS on that day was 71 (SSS 72 - 1). Should the score before the slope adjustment be 96 - 71 = 25, with the differential becoming 21.4?
		
Click to expand...

Your score differential calculation of 20.3 is correct. 

Basically the course rating has replaced the old SSS so *forget the old SSS* when doing any calculations.

If the CSS (PCC) was -1 use a course rating of 72.3
If the CSS (PCC) was 0 use 73.3
If the CSS (PCC) was +1 use 74.3

Hope this assists


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There is a fiddly drop down menu where you start typing the course name then you select the tee and type in the scores.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'll ask him to try again.
Edit: Just had a thought - what if the player hadn't registered his intent before he played


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

Must register, not seen anything to contradict it but I haven’t fully read the rules yet


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## nickjdavis (Nov 6, 2020)

Given that the facility to run an Annual Review has now been deleted from local ISV software platforms...I take it that this facility will be made available within the WHS DotGolf platform at some point in the near future?


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Must register, not seen anything to contradict it but I haven’t fully read the rules yet
		
Click to expand...

Not quite what I meant. I wonder if that is causing the problem of not finding the other course in the drop down. Perhaps it only shows clubs with which he is 'associated' 
eg 

his Away club, 
a club where he has registered to play in an Open competition 
where he has registered to submit a General play score.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Not quite what I meant. I wonder if that is causing the problem of not finding the other course in the drop down. Perhaps it only shows clubs with which he is 'associated'
eg

his Away club,
a club where he has registered to play in an Open competition
where he has registered to submit a General play score.


Click to expand...

No, I was able to put any club in using the drop down.


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## fenwayrich (Nov 6, 2020)

Chinny said:



			Your score differential calculation of 20.3 is correct. 

Basically the course rating has replaced the old SSS so *forget the old SSS* when doing any calculations.

If the CSS (PCC) was -1 use a course rating of 72.3
If the CSS (PCC) was 0 use 73.3
If the CSS (PCC) was +1 use 74.3

Hope this assists 

Click to expand...

Thanks for replying. It seems rather unfair because the course was significantly easier in 2018 and 2019 before changes were made and the course was re-rated. However the whole exercise of WHS seems to have been done on a wing and a prayer so it's not surprising.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Thanks. I'll ask him to try again.
Edit: Just had a thought - what if the player hadn't registered his intent before he played
		
Click to expand...





Drop down menu where Libbaton is


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## IanMcC (Nov 7, 2020)

We have ClubV1. If I set up a comp as non acceptable conditions (non qualifier), everyone's Playing Handicap is the same as their Course Handicap. The 95% Playing Handicap adjustment for a Stableford Singles Comp is not applied. Surely this is an error, because, although we wont use the scores for handicap adjustments, the competition will still take place locally and the correct adjustments should still take place for the result, I believe. Could someone confirm this, and maybe check on another operating system if possible, please?.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			We have ClubV1. If I set up a comp as non acceptable conditions (non qualifier), everyone's Playing Handicap is the same as their Course Handicap. The 95% Playing Handicap adjustment for a Stableford Singles Comp is not applied. Surely this is an error, because, although we wont use the scores for handicap adjustments, the competition will still take place locally and the correct adjustments should still take place for the result, I believe. Could someone confirm this, and maybe check on another operating system if possible, please?.
		
Click to expand...

Even if you set it up as a qualifier you still need to put the fraction in, it’s not automatic


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## IanMcC (Nov 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Even if you set it up as a qualifier you still need to put the fraction in, it’s not automatic
		
Click to expand...

I find that quite incredible, but thanks for the heads up. I will add 19/20 to the set up.
I still have to tell members that the HDID score is incorrect though for some comps. See this thread.
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/2-tee-stableford-comp-under-whs.107162/


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## rulefan (Nov 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Even if you set it up as a qualifier you still need to put the fraction in, it’s not automatic
		
Click to expand...

Is it not something that can be set as a fixed system parameter? It seems to be a strange omission.

Is it just V1?


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Is it not something that can be set as a fixed system parameter? It seems to be a strange omission.

Is it just V1?
		
Click to expand...

Just had a look and it cannot be set, I presume it’s to allow for non Q comps where some will feel there is no need for the reduction. Personally think it should be set with the ability to change.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			We have ClubV1. If I set up a comp as non acceptable conditions (non qualifier), everyone's Playing Handicap is the same as their Course Handicap. The 95% Playing Handicap adjustment for a Stableford Singles Comp is not applied. Surely this is an error, because, although we wont use the scores for handicap adjustments, the competition will still take place locally and the correct adjustments should still take place for the result, I believe. Could someone confirm this, and maybe check on another operating system if possible, please?.
		
Click to expand...

 It is possibly because Playing Handicap Allowances were going to be optional and it was only at a very late stage that CONGU made them compulsory (the guidance only came out on the 19th September) and the software was probably written by then.


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## IanMcC (Nov 8, 2020)

Maybe its time now to collate all of the things that dont work on WHS, recognising region and ISV. It will be interesting to see if we all have the same faults.

Region - Wales Golf
ISV - ClubV1

Fault 1 - No strokeplay round with a partial NR is uploaded into the WHS portal
Fault 2 - If a dual tee comp is set up, no allowance in Playing Handicap is given for Rule 6.2b, when the difference between par and Course Rating differs between tees.
Fault 3 - If a comp is set up as not acceptable conditions (non-qualifier) the 95% allowance has to be manually entered as a fraction.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

Fault 3 not a fault really as some will choose not to input the fraction in some NQ games. You also have to put the fraction in on a qualifier


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## IanMcC (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You also have to put the fraction in on a qualifier
		
Click to expand...

That is not the case when I set up a qualifier on ClubV1. The option for the the fraction disappears, and the software automatically gives each player 95%.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			That is not the case when I set up a qualifier on ClubV1. The option for the the fraction disappears, and the software automatically gives each player 95%.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I hadn’t noticed..


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## rosecott (Nov 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			That is not the case when I set up a qualifier on ClubV1. The option for the the fraction disappears, and the software automatically gives each player 95%.
		
Click to expand...

It's the same with Handicapmaster. All the templates for counting competitions have now been changed to set handicap allowance automatically at 95%.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

rosecott said:



			It's the same with Handicapmaster. All the templates for counting competitions have now been changed to set handicap allowance automatically at 95%.
		
Click to expand...

Does that include BB or just qualifiers


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## IanMcC (Nov 8, 2020)

rosecott said:



			It's the same with Handicapmaster. All the templates for counting competitions have now been changed to set handicap allowance automatically at 95%.
		
Click to expand...

How does HandicapMaster deal with non qualifiers? Do you have to input the fraction yourself?


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## rosecott (Nov 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			How does HandicapMaster deal with non qualifiers? Do you have to input the fraction yourself?
		
Click to expand...

All our singles competitions are counting - as far as I can see the word qualifier seems to be obsolete.


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## IanMcC (Nov 8, 2020)

rosecott said:



			All our singles competitions are counting - as far as I can see the word qualifier seems to be obsolete.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I was using it for convenience. A comp is now either acceptable or non acceptable. In winter we have preferred lies everywhere, so non acceptable.


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## rulefan (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No, I was able to put any club in using the drop down.
		
Click to expand...

Our manager has now managed to find the other course but has not entered the player's 'supplementary'

We thought that the process is that the player declares his intent at the 'other' course and a 'registration' is made there. After play, he returns his score and that club 'records' the score.
In the situation we have, the player returned from a trip out and brought back a card which he asked to be recorded as a 'supplementary'. The issue is that we have no proof of pre-declaration.
What is the correct procedure? And is this a loophole?


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## rosecott (Nov 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, I was using it for convenience. A comp is now either acceptable or non acceptable. In winter we have preferred lies everywhere, so non acceptable.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - interesting that Handicapmaster now uses the phrase "counting for handicap". I wonder why they didn't use "acceptable".


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, I was using it for convenience. A comp is now either acceptable or non acceptable. In winter we have preferred lies everywhere, so non acceptable.
		
Click to expand...

V1 still says Q or NQ as far as I can see and obviously the option needs to remain because circumstances may req comp to be a NQ.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Our manager has now managed to find the other course but has not entered the player's 'supplementary'

We thought that the process is that the player declares his intent at the 'other' course and a 'registration' is made there. After play, he returns his score and that club 'records' the score.
In the situation we have, the player returned from a trip out and brought back a card which he asked to be recorded as a 'supplementary'. The issue is that we have no proof of pre-declaration.
What is the correct procedure? And is this a loophole?
		
Click to expand...

I suppose it is a loop hole at the moment but it has been suggested that cards will in the future be done at the visiting club however for years I have seen posts on here arguing that all scores count so why can’t we take the word of the player that he registered. EG was even pushing it during the WHS seminars.


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## rulefan (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I suppose it is a loop hole at the moment but it has been suggested that cards will in the future be done at the visiting club however for years I have seen posts on here arguing that all scores count so why can’t we take the word of the player that he registered. EG was even pushing it during the WHS seminars.
		
Click to expand...

I see your point but I'm not convinced. This guy had a good score but my concern is 'open' bandits.


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## rosecott (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I suppose it is a loop hole at the moment but it has been suggested that cards will in the future be done at the visiting club however for years I have seen posts on here arguing that all scores count so why can’t we take the word of the player that he registered. EG was even pushing it during the WHS seminars.
		
Click to expand...

The whole point of pre-registration is it removes the element of choice. You register and the card has to be submitted - good or bad. Rightly or wrongly, Rulefan is concerned that the scorecard just happens to be good.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I see your point but I'm not convinced. This guy had a good score but my concern is 'open' bandits.
		
Click to expand...

If it's a good card all the more reason to use it


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## rulefan (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If it's a good card all the more reason to use it 

Click to expand...

No problem there but it could set a precedent for more unscrupulous members - except there are no such golfers.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If it's a good card all the more reason to use it 

Click to expand...

That is always concerned me. I know of a local club, whose Committee actively "force" players to hand in cards from their weekly social roll ups, only if they have a good score. The result is that most of their key players (who play most of these roll ups) have ridiculously lower handicaps than you'd expect if you saw them play. It is no surprise they went from winning the handicap county league about 8 years ago, to plummeting to the bottom division.

On a more regular scenario, non-committee members are often quite persuasive in pressuring a new member to submit a score after a good social round. Pre-registration does offer protection against this. However, it will be interesting how the software will be set up to do this, and make it robust, for both home and away scores. I can see players having a good score on a saturday, and then pre-registering and entering it later in the day, or maybe doing it on the sunday, if they were really determined to submit it.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 8, 2020)

Texas Scrambles - there is no option in the playing allowance table for 3 ball TSs.

Our ladies section play a lot of these in winter but it appears you cannot generate a competition on Club V1 for 3 players. Does anyone else have a problem with being able to load / score this format?


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Texas Scrambles - there is no option in the playing allowance table for 3 ball TSs.

Our ladies section play a lot of these in winter but it appears you cannot generate a competition on Club V1 for 3 players. Does anyone else have a problem with being able to load / score this format?
		
Click to expand...

First page details, 2,3,4 team size


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

I think 30-20-10% recommend


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			First page details, 2,3,4 team size
		
Click to expand...

I can see that - it was more what handicap allowances are used.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think 30-20-10% recommend
		
Click to expand...

Page 43 Handicap Advice


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Page 43 Handicap Advice
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, which document please?


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Sorry, which document please?
		
Click to expand...

43/44

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			43/44

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf

Click to expand...

Got it - thanks.

Having run a test you can enter a team in a 3 person scramble on V1 and it comes up with a team handicap. No idea of the basis for this.


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## jim8flog (Nov 9, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Got it - thanks.

Having run a test you can enter a team in a 3 person scramble on V1 and it comes up with a team handicap. No idea of the basis for this.
		
Click to expand...

It should be
For a 3-player team CONGU recommends 30%/20%/10%.

If you want check it

 As per Old Skier  Page 43 1st sub section 1st para


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## jim8flog (Nov 9, 2020)

Is any body adjusting individual player's score yet?

If yes what basis are you using?

If you have somebody who has now moved in to the 'elite' bracket and should not be there did you ask/notify county?


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## nickjdavis (Nov 9, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Is any body adjusting individual player's score yet?

If yes what basis are you using?

If you have somebody who has now moved in to the 'elite' bracket and should not be there did you ask/notify county?
		
Click to expand...

Did you mean adjusting players indexes?

We are about to adjust a load of players who were given WHS indexes the same as their Congu handicaps. This effectively means that under the WHS and taking into account the 95% handicap allowance they would get more shots than they previous would under Congu. There are about 40 players and they all are players who have never entered a score since 2018. Allocated indexes range from 12 to 30 with the majority being between 12 and 22 and the rest being 26 and upwards. We are not doing anything hugely scientific but are going to reduce these players indexes by one shot for the 12-22 indexes and 1.5 shots for the 26 to 30 indexes.

You might argue, if they've not submitted a score in nearly 3 years why bother but, if this WHS is supposed to encourage players to go out and play golf and submit scores for handicap then we might as well just be a touch prudent and make an adjustment just in case they suddenly decide that competition golf is for them!!! Once we've got these ones out of the way as they are the easy ones then we will start reviewing the allocations to players who have scoring records with only a few scores in them...especially those which may be skewed by having one exceptional score in them. That will take a bit longer and a bit mpre involved analysis to determine what is a fair adjustment...but we've got plenty of time given that we are locked down!!!


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## nickjdavis (Nov 9, 2020)

Looks like the WHS support email is 7-days behind judging from the fact that I've just had a response to a couple of suggestions I made back on the 2nd!!!!


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Looks like the WHS support email is 7-days behind judging from the fact that I've just had a response to a couple of suggestions I made back on the 2nd!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Lucky you, I’m still waiting


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 9, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Is any body adjusting individual player's score yet?

If yes what basis are you using?

If you have somebody who has now moved in to the 'elite' bracket and should not be there did you ask/notify county?
		
Click to expand...

I had to adjust a couple before a competition the day before lockdown. They were both people who had recent ESRs and thus their HI were too high for their current ability.

I used the EG Platform to make the adjustment which subtracted 1 or 2 from the gross differential of each round in their playing record.

Thus basis is to implement the reduction that would have happened via ESR.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Looks like the WHS support email is 7-days behind judging from the fact that I've just had a response to a couple of suggestions I made back on the 2nd!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Must have got back to work, email now forwarded to tech support 

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have forwarded your email to the Technical Team for further investigation. They are experiencing exceptionally high email traffic at the moment, and therefore it may take some time for this to be actioned.

We kindly ask for your patience with this.


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## rulefan (Nov 9, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Is any body adjusting individual player's score yet?

If yes what basis are you using?

If you have somebody who has now moved in to the 'elite' bracket and should not be there did you ask/notify county?
		
Click to expand...

Yes. One where the transition had not recognised a General Play adjustment made earlier in the year an one where due to a permanent change in health a general play adjustment was in the pending tray.
I may have reported it before but it seems that all changes must be in whole numbers and are limited to 5 at one time. We wanted to do 6 so did 5 & 1 in two steps. It now only shows as a single 6 on the WHS platform.


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## IanMcC (Nov 9, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Is any body adjusting individual player's score yet?

If yes what basis are you using?

If you have somebody who has now moved in to the 'elite' bracket and should not be there did you ask/notify county?
		
Click to expand...

I must admit, I am a bit reluctant to do this. All of our members were given ample warning, by me and others throughout the Summer, that only having a handful of cards submitted would lead to a skewed Handicap Index after changeover. A lot of people put Supplementary cards in, but many did not. The ones whinging now are the ones who did not. I have 3 players in particular, all with only 3 cards submitted, who have Indexes way lower than they should have. To me, they only have themselves to blame.

What I have told them is that they can put in cards during the winter if they only have 6" preferred lies on fairway height grass only. (All of our comps in the winter are preferred lies anywhere.) 
I know this goes against the 'active season' part of Rule 2.1, but its the best concession I can come up with. I don't think they should have a free lunch so to speak and have their HI adjusted because of their laziness in the summer season.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2020)

I have only re-entered new members first 3 scores for handicap. Took a while, because not only where there over 50 of them, I had to go and find all the bloomin cards. A bit time consuming, especially due to Covid


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2020)

This might have been mentioned. But, I set up howdidido to permit Casual Scores. I tested what it looks like to pre-register. It asks is it qualifying or non-qualifying. Not only are these terms redundant, even if they were not, I have no idea why anyone would select non-qualifying, as the very purpose of it is to submit score for handicap. Also, if non-qualifying was selected, anyone know what would happen? I'm not sure Club V1 are sending scores daily to WHS yet, so perhaps it is impossible to know just yet


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

They have been sending scores


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## jim8flog (Nov 9, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I must admit, I am a bit reluctant to do this. All of our members were given ample warning, by me and others throughout the Summer, that only having a handful of cards submitted would lead to a skewed Handicap Index after changeover. A lot of people put Supplementary cards in, but many did not. The ones whinging now are the ones who did not. I have 3 players in particular, all with only 3 cards submitted, who have Indexes way lower than they should have. To me, they only have themselves to blame.

What I have told them is that they can put in cards during the winter if they only have 6" preferred lies on fairway height grass only. (All of our comps in the winter are preferred lies anywhere.)
I know this goes against the 'active season' part of Rule 2.1, but its the best concession I can come up with. I don't think they should have a free lunch so to speak and have their HI adjusted because of their laziness in the summer season.
		
Click to expand...

 My reason for asking is simply that I have spotted one player whose H.I. Is totally wrong. So I suspect there might be others.

Agree with you about a lot of others. We had been stressing the need for SSs ever since we came out of the first lockdown and we substantially increased the number of comps available to play in to 5 a week.

We have no active/inactive season but often have non qualifiers due to more than 2 temp greens.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			They have been sending scores
		
Click to expand...

Ok. To be fair, I only checked last Wednesday or Thursday, and noticed they hadn't sent WHS a casual round a member had entered on howdidido. At that point, I just manually entered it to WHS and then deleted from Club V1


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Ok. To be fair, I only checked last Wednesday or Thursday, and noticed they hadn't sent WHS a casual round a member had entered on howdidido. At that point, I just manually entered it to WHS and then deleted from Club V1
		
Click to expand...

Had you accepted the casual round on V1?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had you accepted the casual round on V1?
		
Click to expand...

There was no option to do so, unless it was in a weird place (there used to be an option before the revamp). The only icon I could see was the Delete option


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had you accepted the casual round on V1?
		
Click to expand...

PS. Presumably it will need to automatically go to WHS, rather than wait for someone to accept it? After all, it affects PCC calculation, and I won't be available every night to accept rounds


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			PS. Presumably it will need to automatically go to WHS, rather than wait for someone to accept it? After all, it affects PCC calculation, and I won't be available every night to accept rounds
		
Click to expand...

Needs to be accepted first in the same way as you did on a supplementary card. Go to the competition tag then the casual rounds tag then either accept or delete.


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## IanMcC (Nov 9, 2020)

Can anyone tell me if checking the handicap of a player outside of our particular union is now possible?
I am under Wales Golf, and we are having an Open Competition on 21st November.
Traditionally we are inundated with players, mostly from Merseyside, with no official handicap or CDH number.
I used to use CDH Lookup on ClubV1, and the GolfBox (Wales Golf) CDH site. Both are now gone. The CONGU version of ClubV1 has no links for CDH Lookup any more, and the WHS version only allows searches in Wales, and usually crashes.
This will be a huge issue come the Summer if there is no way to check. Earlier this year I had to DQ a pair with the best svore, as one had no handicap.


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## rosecott (Nov 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone found the Annual Review Report on V1
		
Click to expand...

The handicap review process gives a Handicap Committee the ability to ensure the Handicap Index of a player reflects their demonstrated ability. It is strongly recommended that a Handicap Committee conduct a handicap review at least annually for all members who have designated that golf club as their home club. l The World Handicap System software specifications will recommend reports and notifications to assist Handicap Committees to identify those players who require a handicap review. A review can be conducted annually or as otherwise necessary. l A player must be made aware of, and be given the opportunity to contribute towards, the handicap review process to the extent practicable and must have recourse to an appeals procedure, if requested.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Can anyone tell me if checking the handicap of a player outside of our particular union is now possible?
I am under Wales Golf, and we are having an Open Competition on 21st November.
Traditionally we are inundated with players, mostly from Merseyside, with no official handicap or CDH number.
I used to use CDH Lookup on ClubV1, and the GolfBox (Wales Golf) CDH site. Both are now gone. The CONGU version of ClubV1 has no links for CDH Lookup any more, and the WHS version only allows searches in Wales, and usually crashes.
This will be a huge issue come the Summer if there is no way to check. Earlier this year I had to DQ a pair with the best svore, as one had no handicap.
		
Click to expand...

CDH lookup is still available on the English version of V1. I think there was something on the notes in V1 about CDH numbers and Wales & Scotland and a rights issue. If you can’t have cross boarder checking then that’s another major failing in the system. If you PM me your CDH No at sometime I’ll see if I can pick it up from this end. It will be later in the day.

As to allowing entries for people without an official handicap can’t help you because for all our opens, club or county, you need a CDH and official HC.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The handicap review process gives a Handicap Committee the ability to ensure the Handicap Index of a player reflects their demonstrated ability. It is strongly recommended that a Handicap Committee conduct a handicap review at least annually for all members who have designated that golf club as their home club. l The World Handicap System software specifications will recommend reports and notifications to assist Handicap Committees to identify those players who require a handicap review. A review can be conducted annually or as otherwise necessary. l A player must be made aware of, and be given the opportunity to contribute towards, the handicap review process to the extent practicable and must have recourse to an appeals procedure, if requested.
		
Click to expand...

I know what it’s for, just asking if anyone had seen where a report is generated to assist the process as it is no longer available in V1.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 10, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The handicap review process gives a Handicap Committee the ability to ensure the Handicap Index of a player reflects their demonstrated ability. It is strongly recommended that a Handicap Committee conduct a handicap review at least annually for all members who have designated that golf club as their home club. l The World Handicap System software specifications will recommend reports and notifications to assist Handicap Committees to identify those players who require a handicap review. A review can be conducted annually or as otherwise necessary. l A player must be made aware of, and be given the opportunity to contribute towards, the handicap review process to the extent practicable and must have recourse to an appeals procedure, if requested.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe the question was to why an Annual Review is required, I'd like to think most handicap secretaries are comfortable with this. The question was related to how the software helps feed into this process, as it did under the old system.


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## rosecott (Nov 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I know what it’s for, just asking if anyone had seen where a report is generated to assist the process as it is no longer available in V1.
		
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My interpretation of it is that the WHS platform will produce an AR report but I can find no sign of it on the dashboard. We have now decided to leave ours until January in the hope that they will produce an AR report - won't be holding my breath as we have our own systems in place based on CONGU.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 10, 2020)

As I mentioned a few days ago...there is no facility within HandicapMaster to run an Annual Review and the facility does not yet exist within the WHS platform.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 10, 2020)

WHS assistance is really getting up to speed now....just had a response to an email I sent on 16th October. Pity it came 12 days to late for me to implement the advice it gives!!!

Also had an error report in Handicapmaster so used the automated fault reporting system to tell HM about it. They've responded telling me that the issue is because DotGolf have, not for the first time, changed the interface used for downloading scores without telling any of the ISV's. This change was made on the live operational platform but not the test platform that the ISV's have access to...so HM are now trying to implement a fix for an issue that cant be reproduced on the test system!!! You couldn't make this up.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

Just ran a test to print labels on V1 to see what handicap appeared, it was the playing HC with no mention of course handicap. Be interested in what other ISVs get if they use the same facility.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just ran a test to print labels on V1 to see what handicap appeared, it was the playing HC with no mention of course handicap. Be interested in what other ISVs get if they use the same facility.
		
Click to expand...

Just been on chat with V1 and they are working on this, still interested in other ISVs.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Can anyone tell me if checking the handicap of a player outside of our particular union is now possible?
I am under Wales Golf, and we are having an Open Competition on 21st November.
Traditionally we are inundated with players, mostly from Merseyside, with no official handicap or CDH number.
I used to use CDH Lookup on ClubV1, and the GolfBox (Wales Golf) CDH site. Both are now gone. The CONGU version of ClubV1 has no links for CDH Lookup any more, and the WHS version only allows searches in Wales, and usually crashes.
This will be a huge issue come the Summer if there is no way to check. Earlier this year I had to DQ a pair with the best svore, as one had no handicap.
		
Click to expand...

Guess what, this is an issued that “DotGolf” have caused and one they are attempting to recitify, however Scotland will not be integrated until later.


[13:48]CSICare (Drew): Regarding scores not going to the WHS and other CDH syncing issues:
Unfortunately there is an issue with England Golf’s API (DotGolf) that would be causing sync issues with the WHS and all ISV providers. At the moment I believe that Dotgolf have closed the connections we have to send/retrieve data until they have corrected the errors or found a way through the issues post transition. It seems as though many clubs in England are now in limbo. Our development team are working with Dotgolf to help them as proactively as possible. It's in everyone's interest to have all this resolved asap. The added complication is that Dotgolf are in New Zealand meaning time differences are tricky for meetings.
We will continue to keep Clubs updated via notifications in ClubV1 and the status page on the Club Systems website here https://www.clubsystems.com/service-status.
I can only advise waiting till these issues have been resolved by them.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

Every time I have put on a new member they only come up with CDH and email, no name and when I try and enter there acc I just get an error message. This happening to anyone else?


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## nickjdavis (Nov 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Every time I have put on a new member they only come up with CDH and email, no name and when I try and enter there acc I just get an error message. This happening to anyone else?
		
Click to expand...

Personally....whilst DotGolf are seemingly happy to throw random spanners into their own systems without warning the ISV's, I'm not trying to add anyone or anything new into our system.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

Most probably very wise


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

Just come through

The World Handicap System is now into its second week of operation in England and the bedding in process continues.

In the past week there has been a transition of data on an unprecedented scale:


Around 15 million items of historical scoring data have been transferred from the CDH to the new WHS Platform
Nearly 600,000 individual playing records have been added to the WHS Platform
Over 200,000 golfers have registered on the system since it was launched on 2 November

As expected with such a huge transfer of data, there are elements of the new system that require adaptation and number of operational challenges to be addressed.

We thank all golfers and clubs for showing patience and understanding of our workload as we iron out the technical difficulties many of which were anticipated, but which could only be properly addressed once the system went live.

In order to help clubs and golfers who have emailed us with a query, but have yet to receive an individual reply, we would like to highlight the main areas of our ongoing work. 

Apart from informing us about a requirement to map tees, there is no need to contact us on any of the following points as either the solutions are provided below, or we are already working with our platform provider to update the system as swiftly as possible.​





‘MISSING’ SCORES

If any scores (before 2 November 2020) from a golfer’s playing record do not appear on the WHS system this is down to the fact that the information was never transferred to the CDH via the club’s software.


Golfers can ask that the home club posts these directly onto the England Golf WHS Golf Club Platform. We are also in conversation with club software providers to facilitate a transfer of ‘missing’ scores which only appear on club records.​





PENDING SCORES


Scores within a player’s record that show as ‘pending’ are being looked into and we are working quickly to resolve this matter.​





MAPPING OF TEES


Data relevant to tees and the mapping of courses which was either incomplete or incorrectly transferred by clubs from their system to the WHS platform is now being manually processed by England Golf staff.​





WEB BROWSERS

We have received feedback from some members experiencing problems trying to log in and register via certain web browsers.


For now, golfers can confidently use Google Chrome to register and log in while we work on resolving technical errors with other providers in the coming days.​





PERSONAL DETAILS


Once logged in to the system, some members may experience a problem with fields such as the name of their county. A fix to this issue is now in development.​





MEMBERSHIP ID


Members should be aware that when asked to input their Membership ID during login, this refers to their CDH number. Golfers who do not know their CDH number can request this from their club. Golfers should take extra care when inputting this 10-digit number to reduce chance of user error.​





HELP US HELP YOU


For any other issues, please contact us with as much detail as possible and a screenshot of the page where any error is displayed. This will help speed up our response time. Please be patient when awaiting a reply - our staff are working as quickly as possible to deal with an increased number of emails.

Contact us at whs.support@englandgolf.org​





*Have you looked at our toolkits, resources and FAQs?*
We will endeavour to answer any WHS-related queries as soon as possible. However, you may find answers to many of your questions on our website and through our resources on WHS:


Golfer Toolkit
Golf Club Toolkit
WHS Homepage
WHS for Golfers
WHS Golfer FAQs
WHS Club Roles and Responsibilities
WHS Data FAQs
 
​ 
​


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## nickjdavis (Nov 10, 2020)

At last they took notice of an email I sent them a couple of weeks ago!!! Tell folk what you are working on and you wont get so many folks emailing you telling you that something isnt working!!!


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just come through


​
The World Handicap System is now into its second week of operation in England and the bedding in process continues.

In the past week there has been a transition of data on an unprecedented scale:


Around 15 million items of historical scoring data have been transferred from the CDH to the new WHS Platform
Nearly 600,000 individual playing records have been added to the WHS Platform
Over 200,000 golfers have registered on the system since it was launched on 2 November

As expected with such a huge transfer of data, there are elements of the new system that require adaptation and number of operational challenges to be addressed.

We thank all golfers and clubs for showing patience and understanding of our workload as we iron out the technical difficulties many of which were anticipated, but which could only be properly addressed once the system went live.

In order to help clubs and golfers who have emailed us with a query, but have yet to receive an individual reply, we would like to highlight the main areas of our ongoing work.

Apart from informing us about a requirement to map tees, there is no need to contact us on any of the following points as either the solutions are provided below, or we are already working with our platform provider to update the system as swiftly as possible.  






​
‘MISSING’ SCORES

If any scores (before 2 November 2020) from a golfer’s playing record do not appear on the WHS system this is down to the fact that the information was never transferred to the CDH via the club’s software.


Golfers can ask that the home club posts these directly onto the England Golf WHS Golf Club Platform. We are also in conversation with club software providers to facilitate a transfer of ‘missing’ scores which only appear on club records. 









PENDING SCORES


Scores within a player’s record that show as ‘pending’ are being looked into and we are working quickly to resolve this matter.






​
MAPPING OF TEES


Data relevant to tees and the mapping of courses which was either incomplete or incorrectly transferred by clubs from their system to the WHS platform is now being manually processed by England Golf staff.









WEB BROWSERS

We have received feedback from some members experiencing problems trying to log in and register via certain web browsers.


For now, golfers can confidently use Google Chrome to register and log in while we work on resolving technical errors with other providers in the coming days.






​
PERSONAL DETAILS


Once logged in to the system, some members may experience a problem with fields such as the name of their county. A fix to this issue is now in development.









MEMBERSHIP ID


Members should be aware that when asked to input their Membership ID during login, this refers to their CDH number. Golfers who do not know their CDH number can request this from their club. Golfers should take extra care when inputting this 10-digit number to reduce chance of user error.






​
HELP US HELP YOU


For any other issues, please contact us with as much detail as possible and a screenshot of the page where any error is displayed. This will help speed up our response time. Please be patient when awaiting a reply - our staff are working as quickly as possible to deal with an increased number of emails.

Contact us at whs.support@englandgolf.org









*Have you looked at our toolkits, resources and FAQs?*
We will endeavour to answer any WHS-related queries as soon as possible. However, you may find answers to many of your questions on our website and through our resources on WHS:


Golfer Toolkit
Golf Club Toolkit
WHS Homepage
WHS for Golfers
WHS Golfer FAQs
WHS Club Roles and Responsibilities
WHS Data FAQs





​

​

Click to expand...

Whatever would we be doing without lockdown. 

This has been a terribly managed transition and the impression given is there are still show-stopping issues outstanding.

In this instance I don't feel EG are fit for purpose and as they appear to be unaccountable I suspect we won't ever see the full story behind this monumental c-UP.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The World Handicap System is now into its second week of operation in England and the bedding in process continues.
		
Click to expand...

More likely the WHS cant make it up the stairs before trying to go to bed!!!


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## nickjdavis (Nov 11, 2020)

Seems like the "update initial handicap" function on the WHS Dotgolf system doesn't work.

I changed the indexes of a couple of players who had been given a WHS index the same as their CONGU handicap yesterday, and today I have found that the indexes have reverted back to their old values overnight.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 11, 2020)

Are the courses in Wales due to reopen this week and if so what are you going to do with competitions / handicaps?


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## jim8flog (Nov 11, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Seems like the "update initial handicap" function on the WHS Dotgolf system doesn't work.

I changed the indexes of a couple of players who had been given a WHS index the same as their CONGU handicap yesterday, and today I have found that the indexes have reverted back to their old values overnight.
		
Click to expand...

 We have over 90 players who did not put in card in the last 3 years. Checked a few to see H.I.s same as their UHS handicap hardly seems worth bothering to change theirs.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Are the courses in Wales due to reopen this week and if so what are you going to do with competitions / handicaps?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure about Wales but we held NQ before lockdown successfully and our first one back is a Q, nothing like testing a system by using it


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## IanMcC (Nov 11, 2020)

Yes, we are back on the course. All of our winter comps are non acceptable, however. First one was today. Note that on ClubV1 at least you have to manually insert the 95% multiplier for a singles comp. For an acceptable comp it seems to do it automatically.


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## rulefan (Nov 11, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, we are back on the course. All of our winter comps are non acceptable, however. First one was today. Note that on ClubV1 at least you have to manually insert the 95% multiplier for a singles comp. For an acceptable comp it seems to do it automatically.
		
Click to expand...

Makes sense I suppose.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure about Wales but we held NQ before lockdown successfully and our first one back is a Q, nothing like testing a system by using it 

Click to expand...

We had a qualifier the day before lockdown - it's still sitting there as Club V1 isn't talking to the EG Platform at the moment apparently.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We had a qualifier the day before lockdown - it's still sitting there as Club V1 isn't talking to the EG Platform at the moment apparently.
		
Click to expand...

Have you checked with Club Systems, mind you they might be waiting for EG to get their act together.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Have you checked with Club Systems, mind you they might be waiting for EG to get their act together.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - they as still trying to sort the APIs out apparently - seems it's difficult to discuss things directly as there's a time difference between uk & NZ (who'd have thought!)


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yes - they as still trying to sort the APIs out apparently - seems it's difficult to discuss things directly as there's a time difference between uk & NZ (who'd have thought!)
		
Click to expand...

How many more weeks are they going to use that excuse


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## jim8flog (Nov 12, 2020)

IG

Now showing the last 20 in my 'full' handicap record.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2020)

Latest from EG


The corrupt data issue has now been resolved. You should be able to see your members details and the will now be able t activate their accounts on the WHS platform. 

Information from the clubs system is now updated direct onto the WHS platform.

If any scores (before 2 November 2020) from a golfer’s playing record do not appear on the WHS system this is down to the fact that the information was never transferred to the CDH via the club’s software.

You can post the missing scores directly onto the England Golf WHS Golf Club Platform. We are also in conversation with club software providers to facilitate a transfer of ‘missing’ scores which only appear on club records.  

With regard to members with no email. 
For the new World Handicap System (WHS), it would be preferable for each individual to provide a unique email address along with their date of birth. Without both an email and DOB then a WHS handicap index will not be received.

In such circumstances where an individual does not have an email address and does not intend to obtain one, then it is acceptable to share an email address with a family member or friend. Please ensure the correct email address is updated on the club system.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2020)

V1 users.  Anyone use labels when doing cards for comps and where do they get them from, it appears the ones for individual comps are 7cmx1.3cm and the only supplier I can find is Club Systems.


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## rulefan (Nov 13, 2020)

I can't now find the thread but someone said that the DotGolf staff are all in New Zealand. Not all. The team working on the UK transition are all in England.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I can't now find the thread but someone said that the DotGolf staff are all in New Zealand. Not all. The team working on the UK transition are all in England.
		
Click to expand...

EG said they are working in NZ which is why they cant respond quickly because of the time difference


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## nickjdavis (Nov 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			EG said they are working in NZ which is why they cant respond quickly because of the time difference
		
Click to expand...

I got this statement in an email from EG as well.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I can't now find the thread but someone said that the DotGolf staff are all in New Zealand. Not all. The team working on the UK transition are all in England.
		
Click to expand...

I definitely saw an email, I think it was from Club V1, who said one of the challenges are the time differences between us and New Zealand, when trying to resolve software issues.


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## IanMcC (Nov 13, 2020)

Today I got a reply from Wales Golf regarding no partially NRd round being transferred across at the initial data transfer. Here is the reply:

_To confirm, NR’s rounds could not be included in the transition._

Let's hope partial NR scores will be transferred from ISVs to databases now.


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## SammmeBee (Nov 13, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Today I got a reply from Wales Golf regarding no partially NRd round being transferred across at the initial data transfer. Here is the reply:

_To confirm, NR’s rounds could not be included in the transition._

Let's hope partial NR scores will be transferred from ISVs to databases now.
		
Click to expand...

But they said they could not be?!


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## IanMcC (Nov 13, 2020)

SammmeBee said:



			But they said they could not be?!
		
Click to expand...

I read that as they could not be transferred from the Wales Golf CDH database to the WHS database. Hopefully the transfers from Clubv1 to the WHS database will be different.


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## rulefan (Nov 13, 2020)

New recodrs are certainly going from V1 to the England WHS. I see no reason why Wales wouldn't also


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## IanMcC (Nov 14, 2020)

Yesterday I made a manual change to a players Handicap Index on Dashboard. Even after 24 hours, this has not written back to ClubV1 or HDID. Anyone else seen this? I am under Wales Golf admin.


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## IanMcC (Nov 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			New recodrs are certainly going from V1 to the England WHS. I see no reason why Wales wouldn't also
		
Click to expand...

And have you seen any with NRs in strokeplay rounds yet?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yesterday I made a manual change to a players Handicap Index on Dashboard. Even after 24 hours, this has not written back to ClubV1 or HDID. Anyone else seen this? I am under Wales Golf admin.
		
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in the answer to this. Might tie into my question about creating a new member on WHS Portal, and how you link that record to their corresponding record in Club V1. I did use ClubV1 support yesterday to find out, but response to any questions takes quite some time at the moment. 

On 3rd November, I asked WHS why I could not save a score (which was 18 holes) if any of the holes were over nett double bogey. 10 days later, I got a response to say I cannot enter 9 hole scores, completely unrelated to my original question. I guess they are on automatic pilot at the moment with all the queries, scanning buzzwords on queries and sending out a corresponding response. I can only imagine what it would be like if golf courses were currently open and clubs playing competitions and members wanting to use their index daily


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 14, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			And have you seen any with NRs in strokeplay rounds yet?
		
Click to expand...

Yes - checking this morning some are definately there.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'd be interested in the answer to this. Might tie into my question about creating a new member on WHS Portal, and how you link that record to their corresponding record in Club V1. I did use ClubV1 support yesterday to find out, but response to any questions takes quite some time at the moment.

On 3rd November, I asked WHS why I could not save a score (which was 18 holes) if any of the holes were over nett double bogey. 10 days later, I got a response to say I cannot enter 9 hole scores, completely unrelated to my original question. I guess they are on automatic pilot at the moment with all the queries, scanning buzzwords on queries and sending out a corresponding response. I can only imagine what it would be like if golf courses were currently open and clubs playing competitions and members wanting to use their index daily
		
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Are you talking about adding a score directly in to the WHS Dotgolf system?

I asked the same question and never got a reply. My interpretation is that the WHS platform is only truly interested in a players "adjusted gross" score because that is what it needs to determine your desloped differential  and, lo and behold, an option suddenly (or it might have been there all along and I've not noticed!!!) appeared where you could choose to enter an adjusted gross score for the entire round, rather than 18 hole by hole scores. This has been useful as it allowed us to quickly enter 180 cards or so worth of scores for initial handicap purposes that have been submitted over the summer, but not extracted from the CDH data by the WHS.

We have also been trying to use the "adjust initial handicap" option on the WHS platform to adjust downwards the indexes of 40 or so players who have zero or next to zero playing history over the past 3 years and were allocated a WHS Index the same as their Congu handicap....unfortunately were either doing something wrong, or the feature is broken, because each night the adjustments weve made get overwritten by the originally allocated WHS index. Its not a biggie...but it would be nice to try to be fair to everyone and let them start on in index that results in them getting the same number of strokes as they used to under Congu.


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'd be interested in the answer to this. Might tie into my question about creating a new member on WHS Portal, and how you link that record to their corresponding record in Club V1. I did use ClubV1 support yesterday to find out, but response to any questions takes quite some time at the moment.

On 3rd November, I asked WHS why I could not save a score (which was 18 holes) if any of the holes were over nett double bogey. 10 days later, I got a response to say I cannot enter 9 hole scores, completely unrelated to my original question. I guess they are on automatic pilot at the moment with all the queries, scanning buzzwords on queries and sending out a corresponding response. I can only imagine what it would be like if golf courses were currently open and clubs playing competitions and members wanting to use their index daily
		
Click to expand...

Have you tried using the chat facility on V1 reasonably quick response most times.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Have you tried using the chat facility on V1 reasonably quick response most times.
		
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Only a couple of times, though it seemed to crash. I asked the question at work, so didn't have a lot of time to necessarily wait for an answer. Not so urgent at moment anyway as we cant play golf


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Only a couple of times, though it seemed to crash. I asked the question at work, so didn't have a lot of time to necessarily wait for an answer. Not so urgent at moment anyway as we cant play golf
		
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I find that when nobody is available they time out rather than crash, normally try around 1500 hrs


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 15, 2020)

EG have sent a note out this week regarding the role of handicap committees under WHS.

There is a link to an interesting chart on adjustments to HI following transition. A couple of key points appear to be:

If the player has less than 20 scores in their playing record their handicap will settle as more scores are made available. Accept the Handicap Index Calculated.

If the difference between the CONGU handicap and WHS Course Handicap (Handicap index x Slope Home (Course/113)) is within acceptable tolerances?

These are available and are (broadly):
Formerly Cat 1 or 2 – Within 1 stroke
Formerly Cat 3 – Within 2 strokes
Formerly Cat 4 or 5 – Within 3 stokes
Formerly Cat 6 – Within 4 strokes

Accept the Handicap Index Calculated.

Whilst I accept the premis that the system reflects the current playing ability of the player my concern is for the integrity of the rest of the players and if they are seriously suggesting we don't adjust some of the handicap of people with less than 20 cards.

It is my intention to do a review of the new HI and where there are significant variancies make adjustments - this guidance would suggest I am wrong to do so.


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## jim8flog (Nov 16, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			EG have sent a note out this week regarding the role of handicap committees under WHS.

There is a link to an interesting chart on adjustments to HI following transition. A couple of key points appear to be:

If the player has less than 20 scores in their playing record their handicap will settle as more scores are made available. Accept the Handicap Index Calculated.

If the difference between the CONGU handicap and WHS Course Handicap (Handicap index x Slope Home (Course/113)) is within acceptable tolerances?

These are available and are (broadly):
Formerly Cat 1 or 2 – Within 1 stroke
Formerly Cat 3 – Within 2 strokes
Formerly Cat 4 or 5 – Within 3 stokes
Formerly Cat 6 – Within 4 strokes

Accept the Handicap Index Calculated.

Whilst I accept the premis that the system reflects the current playing ability of the player my concern is for the integrity of the rest of the players and if they are seriously suggesting we don't adjust some of the handicap of people with less than 20 cards.

It is my intention to do a review of the new HI and where there are significant variancies make adjustments - this guidance would suggest I am wrong to do so.
		
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 Have you got the link to that chart?


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## IanMcC (Nov 16, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'd be interested in the answer to this. Might tie into my question about creating a new member on WHS Portal, and how you link that record to their corresponding record in Club V1. I did use ClubV1 support yesterday to find out, but response to any questions takes quite some time at the moment.

On 3rd November, I asked WHS why I could not save a score (which was 18 holes) if any of the holes were over nett double bogey. 10 days later, I got a response to say I cannot enter 9 hole scores, completely unrelated to my original question. I guess they are on automatic pilot at the moment with all the queries, scanning buzzwords on queries and sending out a corresponding response. I can only imagine what it would be like if golf courses were currently open and clubs playing competitions and members wanting to use their index daily
		
Click to expand...

New week and still no change, so I contacted ClubV1 live chat. A guy called Zak. he says it is a problem they know about and are working on. In the meantime, a manual sync of the player updates his handicap on ClubV1 and subsequently (hopefully) HDID. Go to the players ClubV1 scoring record, press the + sign, then Sync Handicap Details. I asked him if scoring records are being updated, and he said yes, but it was a tentative yes, if you know what I mean! At least they know about it.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 16, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Have you got the link to that chart?
		
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jim8flog said:



			Have you got the link to that chart?
		
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Link to Infographic


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2020)

For those who use V1 labels for there comps, beware as at the moment the handicap shown is playing HC and not course HC


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## jim8flog (Nov 16, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



Link to Infographic

Click to expand...

 Thanks.

Due to Lockdown timing we do not have a handicap committee at the moment. So need this for future reference in case it does not get passed on.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 16, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Thanks.

Due to Lockdown timing we do not have a handicap committee at the moment. So need this for future reference in case it does not get passed on.
		
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I'm hoping to review each section with the appropriate committee members prior to resumption of play. Then hopefully we will be able to make the relevent changes before we recommence individual competition and our winter league.


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## Wildboy370 (Nov 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Makes sense I suppose.
		
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In response to original post, I discussed this with club V1 today as we have been running test comps to see how the software copes. I was told by Club V1, you can manually change the 95% or what ever you choose to change it too for casual golf and social rounds. Once you set up as a competition, England golf and your local authority take over the maths once you have entered your score. The ISV cannot do a correction for comps they said as it is all done centrally. So basically all the ISV software will show is your Course handicap based on whatever tee you choose but not your actual playing handicap. All seems to be over complicated and control freakish.


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## Wildboy370 (Nov 17, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, we are back on the course. All of our winter comps are non acceptable, however. First one was today. Note that on ClubV1 at least you have to manually insert the 95% multiplier for a singles comp. For an acceptable comp it seems to do it automatically.
		
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In response to original post, I discussed this with club V1 today as we have been running test comps to see how the software copes. I was told by Club V1, you can manually change the 95% or what ever you choose to change it too for casual golf and social rounds. Once you set up as a competition, England golf and your local authority take over the maths once you have entered your score. The ISV cannot do a correction for comps they said as it is all done centrally. So basically all the ISV software will show is your Course handicap based on whatever tee you choose but not your actual playing handicap. All seems to be over complicated and control freakish.


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

I have circulated details of the app released by EG on Mon and have had a lot of positive response from club members. At least now when they shoot of to another course they will know what their course handicap will be.

Im going to get more shots playing Saunton West than the “Championship “ East course, always said that was the harder of the two.


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

How many of your are considered implementing the last para to cover such things as roll ups group golf etc:

Rule 2

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.

A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made

l Beforet he player starts the round, and

l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.


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## IanMcC (Nov 18, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			In response to original post, I discussed this with club V1 today as we have been running test comps to see how the software copes. I was told by Club V1, you can manually change the 95% or what ever you choose to change it too for casual golf and social rounds. Once you set up as a competition, England golf and your local authority take over the maths once you have entered your score. The ISV cannot do a correction for comps they said as it is all done centrally. So basically all the ISV software will show is your Course handicap based on whatever tee you choose but not your actual playing handicap. All seems to be over complicated and control freakish.
		
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I dont think this is fully correct. When you say 'competition', I think you mean an acceptable score. We run competitions with pick and place everywhere, so not acceptable. Yes, the 95% Playing Handicap is an option, but the software does not compensate for a 2 tee comp like it should. Ladies Playing Handicaps are simply 95%, not +1 shot also, as they should be with our course set up. Even if I set it up as an acceptable comp (qualifier) the Playing Handicap on the score input screen is unadjusted. ClubV1 used to have Appendix O adjustments. Now all of that has been removed, and it is needed. Yes, I know that Appendix O has gone, but Rule of Handicapping 6.2b is pretty similar.


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I dont think this is fully correct. When you say 'competition', I think you mean an acceptable score. We run competitions with pick and place everywhere, so not acceptable. Yes, the 95% Playing Handicap is an option, but the software does not compensate for a 2 tee comp like it should. Ladies Playing Handicaps are simply 95%, not +1 shot also, as they should be with our course set up. Even if I set it up as an acceptable comp (qualifier) the Playing Handicap on the score input screen is unadjusted. ClubV1 used to have Appendix O adjustments. Now all of that has been removed, and it is needed. Yes, I know that Appendix O has gone, but Rule of Handicapping 6.2b is pretty similar.
		
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On your test, have you gone as far as inputting scores to see if the adjustments has been made, or on the labels page?


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## apj0524 (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How many of your are considered implementing the last para to cover such things as roll ups group golf etc:

Rule 2

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.

A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made

l Beforet he player starts the round, and

l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.
		
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The short answer is yes

We have told our membership that if they wish to submit a card, outside the a normal competition, from and acceptable round of golf for WHS purposes, they need to pre-register, either on the IG app or through the pro-shop.

The reason being is that if there is no pre-registration there is no pressure of fully playing to the rules of golf which does not always happen in roll-ups, also  they were not pre-registering their round and they were two shots under their CH after 15 and then had an eight and two doubles I am sure they would not put their card in, but if the they went birdie par pa they would, pre-registering avoids this


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## rulefan (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I have circulated details of the app released by EG on Mon and have had a lot of positive response from club members. At least now when they shoot of to another course they will know what their course handicap will be.

Im going to get more shots playing Saunton West than the “Championship “ East course, always said that was the harder of the two.
		
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Interesting. The East has higher CRs but the West has higher SRs

https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup?Co...ubName=saunton&ClubCity=&ClubCounty=undefined


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Interesting. The East has higher CRs but the West has higher SRs

https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup?Co...ubName=saunton&ClubCity=&ClubCounty=undefined

Click to expand...

To be honest, the west is considerably more difficult than the east especially off the yellows IMO. The east off the whites was all about length but that’s not the case anymore since the west’s improvements


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How many of your are considered implementing the last para to cover such things as roll ups group golf etc:

Rule 2

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.

A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made

l Beforet he player starts the round, and

l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure it is still appropriate but whilst we had the clubhouse was closed and the mobile app wasn't available I agreed with the organiser of our main roll-up that he would agree in advance of play which members wanted to submit a (then) supplementary score, He would then scan the relevant cards and I would enter them into the Club V1 system.

In the new system the obvious answer is for the individual to preregister via PSI or mobile app and enter theri score afterwards with subsequent approval by the handicap committee. Not sure whether this will prove a barrier for submitting casual rounds but want to avoid central input if possible.

Hopefully the members who submitted supplementaries can now see the benefit of a most realistic HI and will want to continue. We will see.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 18, 2020)

Duplicate Scores

In reviewing so players handicaps I noticed some had a large number of rounds played. Looking at the details of their playing record some score had been duplicated or even triplicated with different posting dates. Same course, score and playing date.

Most of these players were members of multiple clubs - but no all. Not sure why this has happened and wonder if closing, opening and closing a competition again (which you occasionally need to do) was the cause.

Anyway, a heads-up as it materially impacted a couple of players HI.


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Not sure it is still appropriate but whilst we had the clubhouse was closed and the mobile app wasn't available I agreed with the organiser of our main roll-up that he would agree in advance of play which members wanted to submit a (then) supplementary score, He would then scan the relevant cards and I would enter them into the Club V1 system.

In the new system the obvious answer is for the individual to preregister via PSI or mobile app and enter theri score afterwards with subsequent approval by the handicap committee. Not sure whether this will prove a barrier for submitting casual rounds but want to avoid central input if possible.

Hopefully the members who submitted supplementaries can now see the benefit of a most realistic HI and will want to continue. We will see.
		
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You will still have a check as you will have to approve the casual round that are entered before scores are submitted.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How many of your are considered implementing the last para to cover such things as roll ups group golf etc:

Rule 2

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.

A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made

l Beforet he player starts the round, and

l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

*The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.*

Click to expand...

In terms of the last paragraph (in bold), then I guess the answer is, it depends. If it is a regular gathering, where members currently roll up and play social golf, I have no intention to assume players have pre-registered when submitting cards from these rounds. Because, the problem is, there is no doubt that only a handful of players may submit their scores, others will have no intention to submit scores (I do not want to force golfers to submit scores against their wishes). So, if I assume they have pre-registered simply for playing in such an event, I'd also have to assume many have a No Return. Therefore, if they want to submit these scores, they will need to pre-register individually.

Of course, if as a group they wish to submit scores, then that is fine. However, we'd still need to find a way that they can all book in formally. If they just hand in their cards afterwards without any official set up, then I'd have no real idea who played and perhaps failed to submit a score. So, I guess this will require a club official to set these roll ups on howdidido. However, as I think about it, I can just imagine all the extra admin this will take, on top of the organisation of normal club competitions in the Mens, Seniors and Ladies sections. So, perhaps it would be easiest simply to get everyone to pre-register as a Casual Round and submit score after.


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## IanMcC (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			On your test, have you gone as far as inputting scores to see if the adjustments has been made, or on the labels page?
		
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I set up a Mixed Stableford Comp as a qualifier (acceptable). I entered my wife and myself. Over the white tees (CR 72.2 and par 70) the men should gain 2 shots over the ladies red tees (CR 73.8 and par 74). 
My handicap index is 7.8, translating to a CH of 9. I should be getting a Playing Handicap of 9+2=11, but as you can see from the screenshot, my PH is still 9, and if I insert a par score at stroke indexes 10 and 11, I only get 2 points.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2020)

There is a chap at our club, who is currently set as Away. However, he is a Home player, so I've tried to set this up for him on Club V1. All sorts of issues.

Firstly, his CDH number is not recognised by Club V1, and no record on WHS. However, his CDH number IS on the CDH database, I just checked. Ridiculous.

Then, on Club V1, under Player Info, I set Type of Player to Home. Then, on CDH Information, I cannot keep his CDH number, as Club V1 does not recognise it and comes up with an error. However, if I select the option that I will enter it later, or remove it, it then brings me to the "Golf" tab. On this tab, he is shown as an Away player, and the Home option is greyed out.

So, in a nutshell, it looks to be impossible for me to even set him as a Home player, let alone link him up correctly to the CDH number he has had for years.


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			There is a chap at our club, who is currently set as Away. However, he is a Home player, so I've tried to set this up for him on Club V1. All sorts of issues.

Firstly, his CDH number is not recognised by Club V1, and no record on WHS. However, his CDH number IS on the CDH database, I just checked. Ridiculous.

Then, on Club V1, under Player Info, I set Type of Player to Home. Then, on CDH Information, I cannot keep his CDH number, as Club V1 does not recognise it and comes up with an error. However, if I select the option that I will enter it later, or remove it, it then brings me to the "Golf" tab. On this tab, he is shown as an Away player, and the Home option is greyed out.

So, in a nutshell, it looks to be impossible for me to even set him as a Home player, let alone link him up correctly to the CDH number he has had for years.
		
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What is he showing on the dashboard as and is his CDH no the same on it.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What is he showing on the dashboard as and is his CDH no the same on it.
		
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His CDH is shown on Club V1, but no handicap. He does not exist on WHS at all, nor his CDH number. On the CDH database, he does exist. 

I wonder if it is to do with fact he left our club in 2018, joined somewhere else. He left the other club in 2019. He came back to us (apparently), but never told me. So, he would have been set back on our Club V1 with the correct CDH. But, his other club presumably deleted him at some point, so I don't know if we automatically became his home club at that point, or he was still an Away player with no Home club. And, then during transition to WHS, it maybe ignored him as he had no home club set. Again, thinking out loud there.

Still, not being able to set him as a home player, regardless of his faulty CDH, seems pretty buggy


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## nickjdavis (Nov 19, 2020)

Just had a response from EG in relation to an issue I reported 10 days ago (they're getting quicker!!)

Been informed that they will investigate the issue and will get an SME to get back to me ASAP.

I responded telling them not to waste the SME's time as the issue was resolved late last week!!!


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 22, 2020)

Whilst getting ready for resumption of golf I thought it would be a good idea to replace our supplementary score process - would welcome any comments.

*Submission of Casual Rounds for Handicap Purposes*

The World Handicap System (WHS) encourages players to submit as many cards as possible to ensure their Handicap Index reflects their current playing ability. These will include all singles competitions (home and away), but players are also encouraged to submit scores for Casual Rounds whenever possible.
A Casual Round replaces the old Supplementary Score but is different in as much as all players (other than elite players) can submit scores when playing at home or away which will count towards their handicap providing the following simple conditions are met:

The round must be registered on the day before play commences either via a PSI terminal or the HowDidIDo application.
It must be played over a measured course of at least 9 holes which has been assessed for WHS purposes.
It must be played to the rules of golf – including any local rules.
It must be verified by a marker whose name should be included with the entered score.
Following the round, the gross hole-by-hole score should be entered either via a PSI terminal or HDID. If a hole is not completed for whatever reason it should be entered as a zero.
The type of rounds acceptable for Casual Rounds are; Medal, Stableford, Bogey and Maximum Score although it is anticipated that the vast majority will be Medal and Stableford. Note that singles matchplay rounds are not eligible to be registered as Casual Rounds currently.
Roll-up and society rounds will be acceptable for submission as Casual Rounds, providing they conform to the conditions above.
Following submission, the round will be verified by the Handicap Committee and then processed as part of the WHS and a new Handicap Index calculated overnight ready for play next day.
Please note that to be fair to all players you must submit a score for a Casual Round if you have registered your intention to do so. Failure to do this without and acceptable reason will result in a penalty score being added to your playing record.


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## jim8flog (Nov 22, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Whilst getting ready for resumption of golf I thought it would be a good idea to replace our supplementary score process - would welcome any comments.

*Submission of Casual Rounds for Handicap Purposes*

The World Handicap System (WHS) encourages players to submit as many cards as possible to ensure their Handicap Index reflects their current playing ability. These will include all singles competitions (home and away), but players are also encouraged to submit scores for Casual Rounds whenever possible.
A Casual Round replaces the old Supplementary Score but is different in as much as all players (other than elite players) can submit scores when playing at home or away which will count towards their handicap providing the following simple conditions are met:

The round must be registered on the day before play commences either via a PSI terminal or the HowDidIDo application.
It must be played over a measured course of at least 9 holes which has been assessed for WHS purposes.
It must be played to the rules of golf – including any local rules.
It must be verified by a marker whose name should be included with the entered score.
Following the round, the gross hole-by-hole score should be entered either via a PSI terminal or HDID. If a hole is not completed for whatever reason it should be entered as a zero.
The type of rounds acceptable for Casual Rounds are; Medal, Stableford, Bogey and Maximum Score although it is anticipated that the vast majority will be Medal and Stableford. Note that singles matchplay rounds are not eligible to be registered as Casual Rounds currently.
Roll-up and society rounds will be acceptable for submission as Casual Rounds, providing they conform to the conditions above.
Following submission, the round will be verified by the Handicap Committee and then processed as part of the WHS and a new Handicap Index calculated overnight ready for play next day.
Please note that to be fair to all players you must submit a score for a Casual Round if you have registered your intention to do so. Failure to do this without and acceptable reason will result in a penalty score being added to your playing record.
		
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 You make no mention of the course being acceptable for acceptable scores i.e. no more than 2 temporary greens.  or 1 for 9 holes 
I did not know elite players were not allowed to submit social rounds have you got a reference for that? Should you not define the criteria to be an elite player, there might be still quite a few that may think the equivalent to Cat 1.
Is it worth mentioning that for a 9 hole round all holes must be played.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

@mikejohnchapman along with the suggestions above I might nick some of that. Could you expand on what a penalty score is/might be.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@mikejohnchapman along with the suggestions above I might nick some of that. Could you expand on what a penalty score is/might be.
		
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Feel free to steal with pride!

Had a big debate with EG and County about what a penalty score is and ................. there is no definition. Up to the Handicap Committee to decide based on "circumstances".


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You make no mention of the course being acceptable for acceptable scores i.e. no more than 2 temporary greens.  or 1 for 9 holes
I did not know elite players were not allowed to submit social rounds have you got a reference for that? Should you not define the criteria to be an elite player, there might be still quite a few that may think the equivalent to Cat 1.
Is it worth mentioning that for a 9 hole round all holes must be played.
		
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Thanks for the comments:

The reference to elite players not being able to submit casual rounds was from an England Golf briefing which highlighted what had changed from UHS and that included both the definition of Elite Players plus the fact that they were not able to post "acceptable" rounds.


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## jim8flog (Nov 22, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Thanks for the comments:

The reference to elite players not being able to submit casual rounds was from an England Golf briefing which highlighted what had changed from UHS and that included both the definition of Elite Players plus the fact that they were not able to post "acceptable" rounds.
		
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So another thing that might have changed since the workshops.

I need to have a thorough dig around the manual to see if it was carried forward.


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## jim8flog (Nov 22, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Thanks for the comments:

The reference to elite players not being able to submit casual rounds was from an England Golf briefing which highlighted what had changed from UHS and that included both the definition of Elite Players plus the fact that they were not able to post "acceptable" rounds.
		
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 The only reference in the manual to an elite player is with regards to initial handicap. There is no definition either.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			So another thing that might have changed since the workshops.

I need to have a thorough dig around the manual to see if it was carried forward.
		
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Can’t see anything in the EG Guidance Notes that says anything regarding elite players.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Can’t see anything in the EG Guidance Notes that says anything regarding elite players.
		
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I know some 20+ handicappers that consider themselves elite. So, a WHS definition would be useful


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## rulefan (Nov 22, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Whilst getting ready for resumption of golf I thought it would be a good idea to replace our supplementary score process - would welcome any comments.

*Submission of Casual Rounds for Handicap Purposes*

The World Handicap System (WHS) encourages players to submit as many cards as possible to ensure their Handicap Index reflects their current playing ability. These will include all singles competitions (home and away), but players are also encouraged to submit scores for Casual Rounds whenever possible.
A Casual Round replaces the old Supplementary Score but is different in as much as all players (other than elite players) can submit scores when playing at home or away which will count towards their handicap providing the following simple conditions are met:

The round must be registered on the day before play commences either via a PSI terminal or the HowDidIDo application.
It must be played over a measured course of at least 9 holes which has been assessed for WHS purposes.
It must be played to the rules of golf – including any local rules.
It must be verified by a marker whose name should be included with the entered score.
Following the round, the gross hole-by-hole score should be entered either via a PSI terminal or HDID. If a hole is not completed for whatever reason it should be entered as a zero.
The type of rounds acceptable for Casual Rounds are; Medal, Stableford, Bogey and Maximum Score although it is anticipated that the vast majority will be Medal and Stableford. Note that singles matchplay rounds are not eligible to be registered as Casual Rounds currently.
Roll-up and society rounds will be acceptable for submission as Casual Rounds, providing they conform to the conditions above.
Following submission, the round will be verified by the Handicap Committee and then processed as part of the WHS and a new Handicap Index calculated overnight ready for play next day.
Please note that to be fair to all players you must submit a score for a Casual Round if you have registered your intention to do so. Failure to do this without and acceptable reason will result in a penalty score being added to your playing record.
		
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I am reminded that the term 'Supplementary Score' is now officially *General Play *not 'Casual Rounds'


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2020)

I'm assuming a player's handicap on Club V1 should be the same as the WHS Portal?

I've had a member asking why he is 18.7 on Club V1 and 18.8 on WHS. I've checked, and the two numbers are indeed different.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I am reminded that the term 'Supplementary Score' is now officially *General Play *not 'Casual Rounds'
		
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At the risk of shooting the messenger......

Most of the materials prior to launch they were called acceptable rounds, then casual rounds (club V1 still think they are), and now General Play Rounds!

Is it any wonder people are confused (and frustrated)


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Can’t see anything in the EG Guidance Notes that says anything regarding elite players.
		
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The only quote I saw was in the CONGU Guidance for WHS and was as follows:

G5.2a (2) Initial Handicap for Elite players
If the scores submitted for an initial handicap indicate a handicap of 0.0 or lower for a man or 2.0 or lower for a woman the club must follow the guidance and procedures issued by its National Association before any Handicap Index is awarded.

As this was in line with all the briefings etc I took it as correct - silly I know.


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## rulefan (Nov 22, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			At the risk of shooting the messenger......

Most of the materials prior to launch they were called acceptable rounds, then casual rounds (club V1 still think they are), and now General Play Rounds!

Is it any wonder people are confused (and frustrated)
		
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A procedure that requires a formal declaration of intent and a formal return of an attested score can hardly be called 'casual' 

But of course they were originally and are still, a subset of 'acceptable scores'.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			A procedure that requires a formal declaration of intent and a formal return of an attested score can hardly be called 'casual' 

But of course they were originally and are still, a subset of 'acceptable scores'.
		
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You are right - not sure General Play is that much better mind you.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			You are right - not sure General Play is that much better mind you.
		
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Why they didn’t just stick to Supplementary is beyond me, change for change sake.


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## rulefan (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why they didn’t just stick to Supplementary is beyond me, change for change sake.
		
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Probably because the rest of the world already used the term 'general play' and only CONGU used 'supplementary scores'.


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Probably because the rest of the world already used the term 'general play' and only CONGU used 'supplementary scores'.
		
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But as EG have the discretion to " do their own thing " and have, what difference will it make.


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## rulefan (Nov 23, 2020)

Re 'Elite' players returning General Play scores. - I can confirm there are no restrictions on entering scores.
The only related constraint is that only the County can apply additional adjustments to elite players handicap indices (Men - Scratch and Better , Women - 2.0 and better)


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## Swango1980 (Nov 23, 2020)

Most likely a simple / stupid question

I have access to the WHS Portal, as I followed the registration process provided by England Golf at the time. If I / the club want to give access to other Committee members, how do we give them permission to successfully register. Is it just a case of me adding a User Account and putting in their details, including User ID and password? Also, what sort of permissions do you recommend (I am wanting to give access to the handicap representatives in the Seniors and Ladies sections)


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Most likely a simple / stupid question

I have access to the WHS Portal, as I followed the registration process provided by England Golf at the time. If I / the club want to give access to other Committee members, how do we give them permission to successfully register. Is it just a case of me adding a User Account and putting in their details, including User ID and password? Also, what sort of permissions do you recommend (I am wanting to give access to the handicap representatives in the Seniors and Ladies sections)
		
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When your in the dashboard, go to

Stettings
Users
Create a New User

You can give them access deciding on what is required.,


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Re 'Elite' players returning General Play scores. - I can confirm there are no restrictions on entering scores.
The only related constraint is that only the County can apply additional adjustments to elite players handicap indices (Men - Scratch and Better , Women - 2.0 and better)
		
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Yes, I just got this confirmed by the county.

I have now thrown away (recycled) all the briefing notes I was given in the build-up to the introduction of WHS as they are clearly worthless.

I wonder why I bothered to travel to the EG events in the last 2 years to be honest.


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## IanMcC (Nov 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm assuming a player's handicap on Club V1 should be the same as the WHS Portal?

I've had a member asking why he is 18.7 on Club V1 and 18.8 on WHS. I've checked, and the two numbers are indeed different.
		
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I think they have serious comms problems now. I changed a members HI on Dashboard and synched it to ClubV1. That was over a week ago. His handicap is still the original value on HDID, even after an (unanswered) email.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I think they have serious comms problems now. I changed a members HI on Dashboard and synched it to ClubV1. That was over a week ago. His handicap is still the original value on HDID, even after an (unanswered) email.
		
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I'd check that the change you made on the dashboard is still there. Every change I made directly on the dashboard got reversed overnight. Gave up trying.


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## rosecott (Nov 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Most likely a simple / stupid question

I have access to the WHS Portal, as I followed the registration process provided by England Golf at the time. If I / the club want to give access to other Committee members, how do we give them permission to successfully register. Is it just a case of me adding a User Account and putting in their details, including User ID and password? Also, what sort of permissions do you recommend (I am wanting to give access to the handicap representatives in the Seniors and Ladies sections)
		
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As I needed help in identifying issues that needed resolutions, I registered 3 committee members so that we could share sifting through players' records. I gave them maximum permissions but stressed to them not to try to make any changes as that needed to be under strict control.


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2020)

Had a word with our county HC. man today and he said that manually entering missing scores is not advisable as EG are working on this from their end and this will result in double entry and possible corruption of data. He also suggests leaving those were you feel index’s are wrong (to high/too low) are best left alone for now with players using the published index.


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## IanMcC (Nov 23, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I'd check that the change you made on the dashboard is still there. Every change I made directly on the dashboard got reversed overnight. Gave up trying.
		
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Yes. Its still there. I had to manually sync to ClubV1 though. I thought that would write overnight, but it didnt. Club know about it and are working on it, apparently.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had a word with our county HC. man today and he said that manually entering missing scores is not advisable as EG are working on this from their end and this will result in double entry and possible corruption of data. He also suggests leaving those were you feel index’s are wrong (to high/too low) are best left alone for now with players using the published index.
		
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Interesting. At what point did England Golf ask us all to leave the system alone and hold of on any handicap reviews? 3 weeks after launch, and the system is still broken enough for county advisors to tell us to basically stay away from it for now. To be honest, I'm close to giving up on it completely for now, and just telling members it is a broken system if they come across any issues.


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm close to giving up on it completely for now, and just telling members it is a broken system if they come across any issues.
		
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Seems like that’s the best thing for now


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had a word with our county HC. man today and he said that manually entering missing scores is not advisable as EG are working on this from their end and this will result in double entry and possible corruption of data. He also suggests leaving those were you feel index’s are wrong (to high/too low) are best left alone for now with players using the published index.
		
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What about applying adjustments rather than additional scores?


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## fenwayrich (Nov 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had a word with our county HC. man today and he said that manually entering missing scores is not advisable as EG are working on this from their end and this will result in double entry and possible corruption of data. He also suggests leaving those were you feel index’s are wrong (to high/too low) are best left alone for now with players using the published index.
		
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That's a little disappointing. I spent a good part of last week going through our 600 odd members records and I have manually input around 300 missing scores, together with changing tees incorrectly identified as white to yellow. I thought that I had read that after November 2nd it was the club's responsibility to correct errors.

Can't say that I am impressed with the way the transition has been handled.


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			What about applying adjustments rather than additional scores?
		
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His feelings,  and it really is his feeling is that it's all best left alone. Those who appear to need adjustments will soon be sorted as soon as people start playing Qs but that's his personal recommendation. 

I think its sound advise if there is still work being done at the back end.


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## jim8flog (Nov 23, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yes, I just got this confirmed by the county.

I have now thrown away (recycled) all the briefing notes I was given in the build-up to the introduction of WHS as they are clearly worthless.

I wonder why I bothered to travel to the EG events in the last 2 years to be honest.
		
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 Expenses


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 23, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Expenses

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Yes I've heard of those - apparently we were supposed to be grateful we were invited and our costs were a small price to pay for understanding the system.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 23, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yes I've heard of those - apparently we were supposed to be grateful we were invited and our costs were a small price to pay for understanding the system.
		
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I attended the meeting held directly by England Golf. It discussed the theory, which meant I learnt nothing ad I'd already picked up on that online, including this forum.

It didn't cover anything about how it would actually work in practice. How the software would work, entering supplementary rounds home and away, etc. That would have been useful. However, it is now clear they didn't have a clue themselves (this was near the start of the year), and it still seems there are quite a few unknowns between both WHS and the ISVs


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## nickjdavis (Nov 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Had a word with our county HC. man today and he said that manually entering missing scores is not advisable as EG are working on this from their end and this will result in double entry and possible corruption of data. He also suggests leaving those were you feel index’s are wrong (to high/too low) are best left alone for now with players using the published index.
		
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EG specifically told me I should enter the scores myself.


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			EG specifically told me I should enter the scores myself.
		
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That’s why I was careful with the wording. Will be interesting to see if you end up with duplicate entries as they slowly sort faults out.


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## jim8flog (Nov 24, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yes I've heard of those - apparently we were supposed to be grateful we were invited and our costs were a small price to pay for understanding the system.
		
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I was lucky because the last workshop was held at our club so we could have 3 people instead of two. Free lunch included.

I agree with your original comment to a certain extent.

A lot of my time was put in to preparing briefings which we put up on our own website long before the information displays packs came out. I then had to spend a long time revising our own briefings and advising players that it had changed. Biggest thing I then heard was " I might as well wait for it to come in then I will learn all about it".

Out came the manual tried to learn as much as possible only for sometime after for the manual to be "clarified" if they new they were going to clarify it why release it in the first place?


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## nickjdavis (Nov 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			That’s why I was careful with the wording. Will be interesting to see if you end up with duplicate entries as they slowly sort faults out.
		
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EG have expressly told me that the missing scores will not be added because their system is incapable of extracting the scores from the CDH..


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## rulefan (Nov 24, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			EG have expressly told me that the missing scores will not be added because their system is incapable of extracting the scores from the CDH..
		
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It depends on the reason for the scores not having got through in the first place. The IVs have managed to retrieve and upload some of the records but not others. We've had both. It may be worth checking with whs.support re individual cases.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 24, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I was lucky because the last workshop was held at our club so we could have 3 people instead of two. Free lunch included.

I agree with your original comment to a certain extent.

A lot of my time was put in to preparing briefings which we put up on our own website long before the information displays packs came out. I then had to spend a long time revising our own briefings and advising players that it had changed. Biggest thing I then heard was " I might as well wait for it to come in then I will learn all about it".

Out came the manual tried to learn as much as possible only for sometime after for the manual to be "clarified" if they new they were going to clarify it why release it in the first place?
		
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The thing I find most disappointing as well as surprising is that this was meant to be a WW system and by commiting to software that had been specifically developed for the new system it would be fully tested and working. Also by delaying the original implementation date by 6-9 months we would be positioned to avoid many of the anticipated problems with any system of this nature.

I don't think I am naive as I have spent many years in the IT industry so I understand how complex system implementations can be and trying to interface with multiple external systems can be tricky but the interfaces are defined so it shouldn't have been this hard.

If it hadn't been for lockdown we would be in a real mess so confidence going forward isn't high.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 24, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The thing I find most disappointing as well as surprising is that this was meant to be a WW system and by commiting to software that had been specifically developed for the new system it would be fully tested and working. Also by delaying the original implementation date by 6-9 months we would be positioned to avoid many of the anticipated problems with any system of this nature.

I don't think I am naive as I have spent many years in the IT industry so I understand how complex system implementations can be and trying to interface with multiple external systems can be tricky but the interfaces are defined so it shouldn't have been this hard.

If it hadn't been for lockdown we would be in a real mess so confidence going forward isn't high.
		
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Out course is now open for bookings early December. Competitions being arranged. It will be interesting how the WHS fares then, and if members see any of the issues. You are correct though, what a stroke of luck we went into lockdown. I think it would have been carnage if clubs were playing competitions early November and both WHS and ISVs were falling over themselves with bugs and inconsistencies.


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## upsidedown (Nov 24, 2020)

I'm disappointed that there have been and are still ongoing problems with the transfer of data to the new system as having seen Dotgolf in action in 2007 in NZ I had full confidence in their system as what we see now on the App and EG website is not a million miles from what it was in 2007. Having then played under it for 6 years it never let me down once so hopefully once the issues are sorted it will be plain sailing for us all and the hard working volunteers on the handicap committees and Chairs of.


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## rulefan (Nov 25, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			I'm disappointed that there have been and are still ongoing problems with the transfer of data to the new system as having seen Dotgolf in action in 2007 in NZ I had full confidence in their system as what we see now on the App and EG website is not a million miles from what it was in 2007. Having then played under it for 6 years it never let me down once so hopefully once the issues are sorted it will be plain sailing for us all and the hard working volunteers on the handicap committees and Chairs of.
		
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I am also confident that the Dotgolf system will perform perfectly in the future management of the system.
However, the transition was/is a process completely new to them and I believe they were often laggardly in getting their exact requirement to the ISVs. In addition it is obvious that they didn't really get into the complexity of the CONGU system and the CDH data structures. Did they take the CONGU manual apart? Admittedly the national authorities may not have been technically aware but it is the responsibility of the software company to ask *all* the questions. There should be no 'what ifs' unasked or unanswered.
I wonder who provided the technical project manager?


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## nickjdavis (Nov 25, 2020)




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## rulefan (Nov 25, 2020)

Been there, done that. Too many times


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I am also confident that the Dotgolf system will perform perfectly in the future management of the system.
However, the transition was/is a process completely new to them and I believe they were often laggardly in getting their exact requirement to the ISVs. In addition it is obvious that they didn't really get into the complexity of the CONGU system and the CDH data structures. Did they take the CONGU manual apart? Admittedly the national authorities may not have been technically aware but it is the responsibility of the software company to ask *all* the questions. There should be no 'what ifs' unasked or unanswered.
I wonder who provided the technical project manager?
		
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Really! It's the software company's responsibility to provide what is specified by the client and contractually commits to - not to ask questions about what they might want. EG are part of CONGU and wrote the manual and the specification - if they couldn't define things clearly to DotGolf well shame on them. I'm not sure EG can wriggle off this one - they let the contract.

Whilst we will never know it would be interesting to see the change requests from EG and the costs associated compared with the original contract.


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2020)

EG have shown over the last 3 years that they weren’t  up to the job of implementing the WHS and I look forward to the next EG tour of the county’s, I won’t hold my breath.

Poor project management or no understanding of the requirements of the project. Mind you they did have some nice trips around the world to get an understanding of what was required


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Really! It's the software company's responsibility to provide what is specified by the client and contractually commits to - not to ask questions about what they might want. EG are part of CONGU and wrote the manual and the specification - if they couldn't define things clearly to DotGolf well shame on them. I'm not sure EG can wriggle off this one - they let the contract.
		
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I agree. A client writes a specification, or writes a brief, and it is the responsibility of the company who wins the contract to produce a product that fits that brief. It is the client (England Golf) that should be aware of the finer details, and make those clear on the brief. If they do not, it is impossible to expect the company that wins the contract to know the exact requirements more than the customer. So, how could they possibly know all the correct questions to ask?

Of course, what should have happened was a period of alpha testing, where England Golf were able to interrogate the initial product, and help in the process of fixing any bugs. Then, a period of beta testing, where local union, or even club committee members could interrogate the system further. In fact, the beta testing could simply have been the period were the CONGU system was still live, but WHS ran in parallel, giving golfers an opportunity to see it work, and giving committee members a chance to report all the bugs.

I've no idea if any alpha testing was done at all? It was obviously poor if it was done, or the initial system must have been an absolute shocker. I guess the beta testing started mid October, when clubs got access to the Platform. But, it was not that useful as no scores were being transferred to it daily. However, a plethora of bugs were still identified. And then, amazingly, it went live on 2nd November. Riddled with bugs and with a long list of things on the "to do" list. ISV platforms have also had their own buggy issues as well, although I imagine most are related to a breakdown in communication with WHS and the fact that the WHS platform is continually being updated to fix bugs, which has a knock on effect to the ISVs


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## rulefan (Nov 25, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I agree. A client writes a specification, or writes a brief, and it is the responsibility of the company who wins the contract to produce a product that fits that brief. It is the client (England Golf) that should be aware of the finer details, and make those clear on the brief. If they do not, it is impossible to expect the company that wins the contract to know the exact requirements more than the customer. So, how could they possibly know all the correct questions to ask?
		
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Clients may well know what they want ultimately but very rarely know how to get there and whether that is what they actually need. The latter two are the responsibility of the contractor.
Whether you are replacing existing manual or computerised procedures, everyone, including the people who actually operate the the procedures must be interviewed forensically. The difference between step 1 and specifically step 12 can only be identified by professional analysts. Dotgolf should have been at the innards of the CDH together with a few working handicap secretaries and the ISVs.
In fact, as Dotgolf had already written the handicap management system for NZ, they knew exactly what the final objective was. Their job was 'simply' to produce the transition software.

My impression is that Dotgolf were either called in late and or were under resourced in the UK.

However, I agree with you re paras 2 and 3. In particular the final sentence. _I imagine most _virtually all _are related to a breakdown in communication _(late specifications) _with WHS and the fact that the WHS platform is continually being updated to fix bugs, which has a knock on effect to the ISVs _


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## apj0524 (Nov 28, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Whilst getting ready for resumption of golf I thought it would be a good idea to replace our supplementary score process - would welcome any comments.

*Submission of Casual Rounds for Handicap Purposes*

The World Handicap System (WHS) encourages players to submit as many cards as possible to ensure their Handicap Index reflects their current playing ability. These will include all singles competitions (home and away), but players are also encouraged to submit scores for Casual Rounds whenever possible.
A Casual Round replaces the old Supplementary Score but is different in as much as all players (other than elite players) can submit scores when playing at home or away which will count towards their handicap providing the following simple conditions are met:

The round must be registered on the day before play commences either via a PSI terminal or the HowDidIDo application.
It must be played over a measured course of at least 9 holes which has been assessed for WHS purposes.
It must be played to the rules of golf – including any local rules.
It must be verified by a marker whose name should be included with the entered score.
Following the round, the gross hole-by-hole score should be entered either via a PSI terminal or HDID. If a hole is not completed for whatever reason it should be entered as a zero.
The type of rounds acceptable for Casual Rounds are; Medal, Stableford, Bogey and Maximum Score although it is anticipated that the vast majority will be Medal and Stableford. Note that singles matchplay rounds are not eligible to be registered as Casual Rounds currently.
Roll-up and society rounds will be acceptable for submission as Casual Rounds, providing they conform to the conditions above.
Following submission, the round will be verified by the Handicap Committee and then processed as part of the WHS and a new Handicap Index calculated overnight ready for play next day.
Please note that to be fair to all players you must submit a score for a Casual Round if you have registered your intention to do so. Failure to do this without and acceptable reason will result in a penalty score being added to your playing record.
		
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Can I ask where does the statement: 

A Casual Round replaces the old Supplementary Score but is different in as much as all players (*other than elite players*) can submit scores when playing at home or away which will count towards their handicap providing the following simple conditions are met:

Come from, are elite players (scratch) not able to submit a Casual (General Play) Round for WHS handicapping??

Thanks


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## rulefan (Nov 28, 2020)

apj0524 said:



			Can I ask where does the statement:

A Casual Round replaces the old Supplementary Score but is different in as much as all players (*other than elite players*) can submit scores when playing at home or away which will count towards their handicap providing the following simple conditions are met:

Come from, are elite players (scratch) not able to submit a Casual (General Play) Round for WHS handicapping??

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

See post #514


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## apj0524 (Nov 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			See post #514
		
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Thank you missed that


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## IanMcC (Nov 30, 2020)

Small but annoying point that one of you may be able to help me with. We have a member who has resigned. Her Dashboard profile has her home club elsewhere (correct) but my club still showing as her Second Club. How do I remove her second club status from dashboard?


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 30, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Small but annoying point that one of you may be able to help me with. We have a member who has resigned. Her Dashboard profile has her home club elsewhere (correct) but my club still showing as her Second Club. How do I remove her second club status from dashboard?
		
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Go into the dashboard, select the members tag, type in the members name and highlight it. When the member's details come up select the membership tag. Go down to the Membership Status line and select the Resign link, when the popup box appears select "resign" and "Save". Hopefully job done!


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## IanMcC (Nov 30, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Go into the dashboard, select the members tag, type in the members name and highlight it. When the member's details come up select the membership tag. Go down to the Membership Status line and select the Resign link, when the popup box appears select "resign" and "Save". Hopefully job done!
		
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Thanks for that. Perfect.
I knew it had to be simple. Didnt see that resign option.


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2020)

Here we go, just had a member who is changing his email address:

Do I change it on V1 and it will upload to the dashboard 
Do I change it on the dashboard and it will upload to V1
Have to change it on both manually and how will that now effect the access to his EG account
Anyone know before I wait for 8 days for an EG response.


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## rosecott (Dec 1, 2020)

Today I restored to membership a member whose membership was suspended for 6 months for health reasons. I brought his record up to date with DoB, email address and data consent. When I published from the ISV software to WHS, his CDH number was not recognised and he was allocated a new one. On WHS he now appears with no handicap and no playing record despite the fact that the ISV software has a record of many handicap qualifiers played from 2019 and up to July 2020.

Has anyone had the same issue and how did you deal with it. On the face of it, a player returning to golf may have a full playing record for 2019 and a CDH number but, as far as WHS is concerned he is starting again from scratch.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Today I restored to membership a member whose membership was suspended for 6 months for health reasons. I brought his record up to date with DoB, email address and data consent. When I published from the ISV software to WHS, his CDH number was not recognised and he was allocated a new one. On WHS he now appears with no handicap and no playing record despite the fact that the ISV software has a record of many handicap qualifiers played from 2019 and up to July 2020.

Has anyone had the same issue and how did you deal with it. On the face of it, a player returning to golf may have a full playing record for 2019 and a CDH number but, as far as WHS is concerned he is starting again from scratch.
		
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No idea, but interested in answer. One of our members lives in Singapore, but as a teacher comes back every summer for months, and each Xmas. So he has a good scoring history. However, due to Covid, he did not fly back this summer nor this Xmas. So, he missed out on membership renewal in August, and has no WHS Index on the Portal, as he was not on our system at the time of transition. So, when he comes back next summer (I think he will be back permanently), I am wondering if he will have to start from scratch, or his scoring history from 2018 / 2019 will still exist somewhere


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## rosecott (Dec 1, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			No idea, but interested in answer. One of our members lives in Singapore, but as a teacher comes back every summer for months, and each Xmas. So he has a good scoring history. However, due to Covid, he did not fly back this summer nor this Xmas. So, he missed out on membership renewal in August, and has no WHS Index on the Portal, as he was not on our system at the time of transition. So, when he comes back next summer (I think he will be back permanently), I am wondering if he will have to start from scratch, or his scoring history from 2018 / 2019 will still exist somewhere
		
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I don't know about your ISV but, on ours, you still have access to the scoring history of past members. In the worst-case scenario, the Handicap Committee have the information to use in the allocation of a new handicap.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Here we go, just had a member who is changing his email address:

Do I change it on V1 and it will upload to the dashboard
Do I change it on the dashboard and it will upload to V1
Have to change it on both manually and how will that now effect the access to his EG account
Anyone know before I wait for 8 days for an EG response.
		
Click to expand...

I did both - EG Platform and Club V1


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I did both - EG Platform and Club V1
		
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V1 reckon that you only need to do the ISV, not done it yet as need to speak to individual as it will obviously affect his EG and HDID access.  I'm not sure Club V1 are right but I'll publish result when I eventually do it.


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## rulefan (Dec 1, 2020)

I have a note taken during a Teams meeting for county secretaries and handicap advisors that administrative tasks (ie player and course data) must be done on the WHS platform but competition management is to be done through the ISV


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## nickjdavis (Dec 2, 2020)

Does anyone yet know...

1) if/what/when any facility will be provided in the WHS system for clubs to conduct an annual review (I cant see anything at the moment)

2) if players will be able to print their own handicap certificates from the England Golf My Account portal (our members used to be able to do this from MasterScoreboard but the facility has been removed).


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## Swango1980 (Dec 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Does anyone yet know...

1) if/what/when any facility will be provided in the WHS system for clubs to conduct an annual review (I cant see anything at the moment)

2) if players will be able to print their own handicap certificates from the England Golf My Account portal (our members used to be able to do this from MasterScoreboard but the facility has been removed).
		
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Not that I can confirm, but:

1. I would have thought a facility will exist at some point, but whether they actually have a definitive algorithm and system set up yet to do this is another question. Before WHS, the facility used to help during the annual review probably took years to become available.
2. We are on clubV1, and it seems that howdidido (which is associated with Club V1 and the site golfers use) allows them to print their handicap certificate. It incorrectly showed handicap as N/A in early days of WHS, but seems to be OK now. So, presumably other ISVs will be able to do this as well. I wonder if handicap certificates will actually be required anymore?


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Does anyone yet know...

1) if/what/when any facility will be provided in the WHS system for clubs to conduct an annual review (I cant see anything at the moment)

2) if players will be able to print their own handicap certificates from the England Golf My Account portal (our members used to be able to do this from MasterScoreboard but the facility has been removed).
		
Click to expand...

1) apparently it’s coming at some time via your ISV however with a now more accurate HC system (?) they may not be the need.

2). Haven’t used or had a request for HC Cert since CDH Nos came into existence but as said individuals who use HDID have the facility to print a cert.


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## IanMcC (Dec 2, 2020)

The Ladies M&H Secretary at our club raised an interesting point today. I have only just convinced her to use the 95% of Course Handicap for singles comps. She ran the first one yesterday for the Ladies. (All non acceptable comps in the Winter for us.) The Ladies do not get a lot of entries for their comps. She commented on field size. Page 95 of the RoH booklet gives interpretation C/1. This states that a field below 30 should maintain 100% CH. This seems sensible, but the only problem is that ClubV1 software, if it is a 'qualifier' (acceptable) competition, automatically applies the 5% reduction, regardless of field size! For a non 'qualifier' you can set the fraction yourself.
She has written to ClubV1 expressing her concerns. 
Anyone else came across this, or have any comments?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 2, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			The Ladies M&H Secretary at our club raised an interesting point today. I have only just convinced her to use the 95% of Course Handicap for singles comps. She ran the first one yesterday for the Ladies. (All non acceptable comps in the Winter for us.) The Ladies do not get a lot of entries for their comps. She commented on field size. Page 95 of the RoH booklet gives interpretation C/1. This states that a field below 30 should maintain 100% CH. This seems sensible, but the only problem is that ClubV1 software, if it is a 'qualifier' (acceptable) competition, automatically applies the 5% reduction, regardless of field size! For a non 'qualifier' you can set the fraction yourself.
She has written to ClubV1 expressing her concerns.
Anyone else came across this, or have any comments?
		
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Ian, the 95% is mandatory in the UK. The accompanying document (on CONGU website) says in GC/1

The recommendation to increase the allowance to 100% for field sizes fewer than 30 players is *not* being adopted in GB&I.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			The Ladies M&H Secretary at our club raised an interesting point today. I have only just convinced her to use the 95% of Course Handicap for singles comps. She ran the first one yesterday for the Ladies. (All non acceptable comps in the Winter for us.) The Ladies do not get a lot of entries for their comps. She commented on field size. Page 95 of the RoH booklet gives interpretation C/1. This states that a field below 30 should maintain 100% CH. This seems sensible, but the only problem is that ClubV1 software, if it is a 'qualifier' (acceptable) competition, automatically applies the 5% reduction, regardless of field size! For a non 'qualifier' you can set the fraction yourself.
She has written to ClubV1 expressing her concerns.
Anyone else came across this, or have any comments?
		
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My understanding is that the small field criteria has been dropped by EG. You are looking at the WHS document (yes I know) and not EG’s
https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf


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## Swango1980 (Dec 2, 2020)

On 3rd November, I asked WHS why entered scores on WHS would not save if any Gross scores were above nett double bogey. The only work around was to manually reduce them yourself, even though WHS looked to have the correct value in brackets underneath.

I got an answer on 13th November, but it was an answer to a different question, so I had to explain again on 13th November. I have no got an answer today (2nd December), which was:

"You should not be entering historic scores hole by hole. Historic scores should be entered on the WHS Platform against the Member as Adjusted Gross Score (top right hand corner of page) on correct date, on correct tee set as General Play with corrected gross score"

This seems bizarre, I can't understand why historic scores cannot be entered hole by hole, it works out an Adjusted Gross anyway.


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## rulefan (Dec 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			My understanding is that the small field criteria has been dropped by EG.
		
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I can also confirm that.


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## IanMcC (Dec 2, 2020)

Another point of interest. Today we had a second club member try to enter our midweek comp. The pro could not add him to the sign in list on ClubV1. His status said that he had no handicap on ClubV1. I used his CDH number to find him on Dashboard. We are a Welsh Club, and his home club is in England. Hence I could not sync his data, as he had an English CDH number, starting with a 1. I added our club as a second member on dashboard, and a new CDH number was generated, this time beginning with a 6. Then the data could be synced and he could be entered into the comp.
The point I am making is that people now have 2 CDH numbers if they are members in different countries. Makes sense I suppose, but it was new to me, and I thought worth sharing.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

Has anyone tried to enter card for handicap on V1. It's not straightforward and you need to issue a CDH No before you start.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Has anyone tried to enter card for handicap on V1. It's not straightforward and you need to issue a CDH No before you start.
		
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Not tried it. I did directly on WHS, but was then having difficulty linking the new WHS record to Club V1 record. Think I got there in end. Next time I have a new member, will try via V1


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Not tried it. I did directly on WHS, but was then having difficulty linking the new WHS record to Club V1 record. Think I got there in end. Next time I have a new member, will try via V1
		
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Give us a ping if you have a problem, I have an email set up that I sent to the rest of my team


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 3, 2020)

Some good news!

We ran a stableford comp yesterday (first day back) with 68 players. The comp completed and was closed by Club V1 and submitted to the EG Platform. PCC of 2 calculated, HI's updated and sent back overnight to Club V1. Updated information now showing correctly! The system worked 

We also had a casual round submitted on one of our other courses which processed correctly and didn't have a PCC calculated. Again as it said on the tin.

Now if EG can find my missing 3 courses I will be a happy man.


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## IanMcC (Dec 3, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Some good news!

We ran a stableford comp yesterday (first day back) with 68 players. The comp completed and was closed by Club V1 and submitted to the EG Platform. PCC of 2 calculated, HI's updated and sent back overnight to Club V1. Updated information now showing correctly! The system worked 

We also had a casual round submitted on one of our other courses which processed correctly and didn't have a PCC calculated. Again as it said on the tin.

Now if EG can find my missing 3 courses I will be a happy man.
		
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Did any ladies play, and if so, did ClubV1 carry out the appropriate 2 tee allowance?


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## nickjdavis (Dec 3, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			On 3rd November, I asked WHS why entered scores on WHS would not save if any Gross scores were above nett double bogey. The only work around was to manually reduce them yourself, even though WHS looked to have the correct value in brackets underneath.

I got an answer on 13th November, but it was an answer to a different question, so I had to explain again on 13th November. I have no got an answer today (2nd December), which was:

"You should not be entering historic scores hole by hole. Historic scores should be entered on the WHS Platform against the Member as Adjusted Gross Score (top right hand corner of page) on correct date, on correct tee set as General Play with corrected gross score"

This seems bizarre, I can't understand why historic scores cannot be entered hole by hole, it works out an Adjusted Gross anyway.
		
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Trouble is....I'm sure that "adjusted gross score" option did not exist a few weeks ago as I was having the same issues entering historic scores on a hole by hole basis. 

Like you...I don't understand WHY we cant/are not supposed to enter hole by hole scores for historic rounds, but at least there is now the option for getting the score into a players record without the pfaff of manually adjusting holes.

I've noticed that EG/WHS are very good at answering a different question to the one you actually asked!!!


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 3, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Did any ladies play, and if so, did ClubV1 carry out the appropriate 2 tee allowance?
		
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No a seniors mens competition.


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## rosecott (Dec 4, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Today I restored to membership a member whose membership was suspended for 6 months for health reasons. I brought his record up to date with DoB, email address and data consent. When I published from the ISV software to WHS, his CDH number was not recognised and he was allocated a new one. On WHS he now appears with no handicap and no playing record despite the fact that the ISV software has a record of many handicap qualifiers played from 2019 and up to July 2020.

Has anyone had the same issue and how did you deal with it. On the face of it, a player returning to golf may have a full playing record for 2019 and a CDH number but, as far as WHS is concerned he is starting again from scratch.
		
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Just an update on this.

In the absence of a response from EG, I had another look around the dashboard. I thought what will happen if I click on "set initial handicap" and put in his CONGU handicap - he is elderly with a CONGU in the thirties - and clicked to save the change. I exited the dashboard, loaded Handicapmaster and published to WHS, checked and still no handicap on the system although a check of the dashboard still showed the handicap I had inserted.

We had a counting competition scheduled for this morning so I thought I'd have another look on Handicapmaster as the guy was desperate to get playing in comps. I was very surprised to find that he is now on both WHS and Handicapmaster with the handicap I inserted. There must be a catch somewhere, it couldn't be that easy.


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## Old Skier (Dec 4, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just an update on this.

In the absence of a response from EG, I had another look around the dashboard. I thought what will happen if I click on "set initial handicap" and put in his CONGU handicap - he is elderly with a CONGU in the thirties - and clicked to save the change. I exited the dashboard, loaded Handicapmaster and published to WHS, checked and still no handicap on the system although a check of the dashboard still showed the handicap I had inserted.

We had a counting competition scheduled for this morning so I thought I'd have another look on Handicapmaster as the guy was desperate to get playing in comps. I was very surprised to find that he is now on both WHS and Handicapmaster with the handicap I inserted. There must be a catch somewhere, it couldn't be that easy.
		
Click to expand...

I did this on my ISV only and next day it was on the dashboard.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 4, 2020)

I know it's possible but has anybody set up one of their professionals on WHS? I can see where you tag them on the EG Platform but wondered if anyone had done it before.


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## IanMcC (Dec 4, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Did any ladies play, and if so, did ClubV1 carry out the appropriate 2 tee allowance?
		
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After writing to CSI a few times, and speaking to a number of their reps, finally received this today regarding Club not recognising the 2 tee comp adjustment:

Hi Ian,



Thank you for your email.



This issue has been reported by multiple clubs and we should hopefully have a fix released for this on Monday night.


Kind regards,
CSiCare
Matt


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## rulefan (Dec 4, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just an update on this.

In the absence of a response from EG, I had another look around the dashboard. I thought what will happen if I click on "set initial handicap" and put in his CONGU handicap - he is elderly with a CONGU in the thirties - and clicked to save the change. I exited the dashboard, loaded Handicapmaster and published to WHS, checked and still no handicap on the system although a check of the dashboard still showed the handicap I had inserted.

We had a counting competition scheduled for this morning so I thought I'd have another look on Handicapmaster as the guy was desperate to get playing in comps. I was very surprised to find that he is now on both WHS and Handicapmaster with the handicap I inserted. There must be a catch somewhere, it couldn't be that easy.
		
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I think you will find  the catch is that *all* the processing and 're-processing' takes place overnight.


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## rosecott (Dec 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I think you will find  the catch is that *all* the processing and 're-processing' takes place overnight.
		
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The point I was making was that WHS indicated that they had no playing record of the player in question but, by the simple act of a couple of clicks by me, he magically had a HI of 38 - I know he deserved that HI but how could WHS with no knowledge of his playing history, have known?


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## rulefan (Dec 5, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The point I was making was that WHS indicated that they had no playing record of the player in question but, by the simple act of a couple of clicks by me, he magically had a HI of 38 - I know he deserved that HI but how could WHS with no knowledge of his playing history, have known?
		
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Had he got any qualifying scores on the CDH since Jan 2018? Are those scores (if any) showing on the WHS platform?


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## rosecott (Dec 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Had he got any qualifying scores on the CDH since Jan 2018? Are those scores (if any) showing on the WHS platform?
		
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There is clearly a major failing in the system.

Until his health situation in July this year, he played 32 QRs in 2020. He played 99 QRs in 2019 and a similar number in 2018 - all of them posted to CDH. His 6 months of being a non-member for health reasons did not come to an end until the start of this month. As he was not a member when WHS started in November, his details would not be sent to WHS by the ISV. On the ISV, he was restored to membership but WHS did not recognise his CDH number, allocated a new CDH number and he ended up on WHS with no playing record. It beggars belief.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 5, 2020)

rosecott said:



			There is clearly a major failing in the system.

Until his health situation in July this year, he played 32 QRs in 2020. He played 99 QRs in 2019 and a similar number in 2018 - all of them posted to CDH. His 6 months of being a non-member for health reasons did not come to an end until the start of this month. As he was not a member when WHS started in November, his details would not be sent to WHS by the ISV. On the ISV, he was restored to membership but WHS did not recognise his CDH number, allocated a new CDH number and he ended up on WHS with no playing record. It beggars belief.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps they'll kindly ask you to manually enter all his scores from Jan 2018


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## rulefan (Dec 5, 2020)

rosecott said:



			There is clearly a major failing in the system.

Until his health situation in July this year, he played 32 QRs in 2020. He played 99 QRs in 2019 and a similar number in 2018 - all of them posted to CDH. His 6 months of being a non-member for health reasons did not come to an end until the start of this month. As he was not a member when WHS started in November, his details would not be sent to WHS by the ISV. On the ISV, he was restored to membership but *WHS* did not recognise his CDH number, *allocated a new CDH number* and he ended up on WHS with no playing record. It beggars belief.
		
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I'm not sure which CDH ID you are talking about.
Are there any scores against the ID you created or the one you now say was created by the WHS?


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## wjemather (Dec 6, 2020)

rosecott said:



			There is clearly a major failing in the system.

Until his health situation in July this year, he played 32 QRs in 2020. He played 99 QRs in 2019 and a similar number in 2018 - all of them posted to CDH. His 6 months of being a non-member for health reasons did not come to an end until the start of this month. As he was not a member when WHS started in November, his details would not be sent to WHS by the ISV. On the ISV, he was restored to membership but WHS did not recognise his CDH number, allocated a new CDH number and he ended up on WHS with no playing record. It beggars belief.
		
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Have you contacted WHS support? Going by their update last week, I am hoping they will import the old records from CDH for players who are missing due to not having a current club in October/November.


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## rosecott (Dec 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm not sure which CDH ID you are talking about.
Are there any scores against the ID you created or the one you now say was created by the WHS?
		
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Right, When he suspended his membership in July 2020, he was moved to Past Members complete with the CDH ID he was allocated in 2016 and his full playing record with 32 QRs this year and around 100 in each of 2018 and 2019. When he rejoined in December everything was restored on the ISV software as a current member with that CDH ID and playing history. When Handicapmaster published to WHS, a message came up to say his CDH ID was not recognised and he was allocated a new CDH ID but there was no handicap and no playing record on the WHS platform.


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## wjemather (Dec 6, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Right, When he suspended his membership in July 2020, he was moved to Past Members complete with the CDH ID he was allocated in 2016 and his full playing record with 32 QRs this year and around 100 in each of 2018 and 2019. When he rejoined in December everything was restored on the ISV software as a current member with that CDH ID and playing history. When Handicapmaster published to WHS, a message came up to say his CDH ID was not recognised and he was allocated a new CDH ID but there was no handicap and no playing record on the WHS platform.
		
Click to expand...

He would have been without a home club on CDH, and as such would not have been transferred to WHS in October/November.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2020)

New member just handed in his 1st card for handicap. We are on Club V1. How on earth do I enter his score on Club V1? If I go to Club V1 Scoring Record on his profile, all it gives me is "Add an Existing Handicap". Do all new cards HAVE to be entered directly to WHS. When I asked CSI Care before, they said you go on to Club V1 Scoring Record and Add casual Round. Once 3 are added you can assign a CDH. Well, this is not even an option


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## wjemather (Dec 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			New member just handed in his 1st card for handicap. We are on Club V1. How on earth do I enter his score on Club V1? If I go to Club V1 Scoring Record on his profile, all it gives me is "Add an Existing Handicap". Do all new cards HAVE to be entered directly to WHS. When I asked CSI Care before, they said you go on to Club V1 Scoring Record and Add casual Round. Once 3 are added you can assign a CDH. Well, this is not even an option
		
Click to expand...

My assumption is that members requiring new handicaps need a CDH number first in order to create the link to WHS, and once that is done the cards can be entered in ClubV1 (or directly in WHS).


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## rosecott (Dec 6, 2020)

wjemather said:



			He would have been without a home club on CDH, and as such would not have been transferred to WHS in October/November.
		
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Thanks, I knew that, but there is no guidance as to what to do in this situation and when you have a new member with CDH ID and playing history who was not a member of a club on 1st November.


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## rulefan (Dec 6, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Right, When he suspended his membership in July 2020, he was moved to Past Members complete with the CDH ID he was allocated in 2016 and his full playing record with 32 QRs this year and around 100 in each of 2018 and 2019. When he rejoined in December everything was restored on the ISV software as a current member with that CDH ID and playing history. When Handicapmaster published to WHS, a message came up to say his CDH ID was not recognised and he was allocated a new CDH ID but there was no handicap and no playing record on the WHS platform.
		
Click to expand...

As stated in #587. Players without a Home Club would have been ignored by the WHS transition and would not therefore have WHS record. Your club will have received a note from EG pointing out the action to be taken for players re-joining after 1 Nov. We certainly had such a note because our manager raised it at a handicap committee meeting.


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## rosecott (Dec 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As stated in #587. Players without a Home Club would have been ignored by the WHS transition and would not therefore have WHS record. Your club will have received a note from EG pointing out the action to be taken for players re-joining after 1 Nov. We certainly had such a note because our manager raised it at a handicap committee meeting.
		
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Like others on this thread, I have been drowning in a sea of emails and I must have missed that note. Why is there no mention in the WHS club guide?


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## IanMcC (Dec 6, 2020)

wjemather said:



			My assumption is that members requiring new handicaps need a CDH number first in order to create the link to WHS, and once that is done the cards can be entered in ClubV1 (or directly in WHS).
		
Click to expand...

I am under the impression that the 3 cards for initial handicap purposes do not get entered into Dashboard. I think you work out the handicap manually, remembering to de-slope it, then create a new member on Dashboard, inserting the initial handicap value. Then you add the new CDH number to ClubV1 and then sync the data.
At least, that is what I have done recently.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I am under the impression that the 3 cards for initial handicap purposes do not get entered into Dashboard. I think you work out the handicap manually, remembering to de-slope it, then create a new member on Dashboard, inserting the initial handicap value. Then you add the new CDH number to ClubV1 and then sync the data.
At least, that is what I have done recently.
		
Click to expand...

That sounds like a horrific method to add new members. But, it wouldn't surprise me if I had to do that. 

The member already has his details in Club V1. I'll just add a new player to WHS Portal, add his scores, and then try and link him up to Club V1.

It looks like CSI Care were talking rubbish when I asked last time about adding new members. I'm starting to despise both the Club V1 and WHS software at this time


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## wjemather (Dec 6, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I am under the impression that the 3 cards for initial handicap purposes do not get entered into Dashboard. I think you work out the handicap manually, remembering to de-slope it, then create a new member on Dashboard, inserting the initial handicap value. Then you add the new CDH number to ClubV1 and then sync the data.
At least, that is what I have done recently.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly shouldn't be doing manual calculations. And the three initial scores should continue to be part of ongoing (most recent 20) calculations, so must be entered (either via ISV, or directly in WHS).


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## Old Skier (Dec 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			New member just handed in his 1st card for handicap. We are on Club V1. How on earth do I enter his score on Club V1? If I go to Club V1 Scoring Record on his profile, all it gives me is "Add an Existing Handicap". Do all new cards HAVE to be entered directly to WHS. When I asked CSI Care before, they said you go on to Club V1 Scoring Record and Add casual Round. Once 3 are added you can assign a CDH. Well, this is not even an option
		
Click to expand...

Try and explain,In V1:

Select:  Add Existing HC
            Click in the empty HC index
            Click on the scoring  3 bars
            Select V1 scoring record
            Hit the +
             Add Casual Round
            Enter Score

YOU MUST HAVE GIVEN/ASSIGNED  A CDH/MEMBERS No BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING

@Swango1980 @IanMcC @wjemather


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## Old Skier (Dec 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			New member just handed in his 1st card for handicap. We are on Club V1. How on earth do I enter his score on Club V1? If I go to Club V1 Scoring Record on his profile, all it gives me is "Add an Existing Handicap". Do all new cards HAVE to be entered directly to WHS. When I asked CSI Care before, they said you go on to Club V1 Scoring Record and Add casual Round. Once 3 are added you can assign a CDH. Well, this is not even an option
		
Click to expand...

#597


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Try and explain,In V1:

Select:  Add Existing HC
            Click in the empty HC index
            Click on the scoring  3 bars
            Select V1 scoring record
            Hit the +
             Add Casual Round
            Enter Score

YOU MUST HAVE GIVEN A CDH/MEMBERS No BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING

@Swango1980 @IanMcC @wjemather

Click to expand...

So, I need to add him as a new member on WHS first, to get a CDH?


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## Old Skier (Dec 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, I need to add him as a new member on WHS first, to get a CDH?
		
Click to expand...

No do it from V1


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2020)

So, yesterday 2 players entered a General Play Round, and submitted scores afterwards. 

This morning I logged in to see if these scores had been transferred to WHS. However, I notice that the 2 guys set their round to "non-qualifying", so it does not go towards their WHS. Quite frankly, the terminology used in Club V1 is ridiculous. We all may know what qualifying and non-qualifying used to mean, but many regular golfers have no clue. In their mind, qualifying means competition and non-qualifying means social golf. Qualifying isn't even a term used anymore. Why on earth can the software not clarify, in easy terms, whether the golfer wants the round to count for handicap or not. I'm not even convinced there should be a "non-qualifying" option, as presumably golfers want it to count towards handicap if they are going to the effort of logging their score.

My other worry is that, whatever the golfer submits, there will be no "Accept" option for the Committee, and so it will go to their handicap regardless of mistakes. Furthermore, and especially this time of year, there are many days were we could be on many temporary greens, certainly more than 2. I cannot contact the club every single day and find out what the course set up is like, and it can change throughout the day. So, golfers can easily enter general play rounds, and I will simply have to accept them unless I am out on the course that day and know it should not be Acceptable


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## nickjdavis (Dec 7, 2020)

We had our first comp yesterday under the new system.

Scores and handicaps seem to have been updated correctly in players records but there is still a discrepancy between a players index and what is shown in the Handicapping Report available from within the Dotgolf system.

My index rose from 11.1 to 11.3 after yesterdays round....shows as 11.3 in HandicapMaster, the EG App and on the Dotgolf portal. But if you generate a handicap list from within the Dotgolf portal it still shows as 11.1 !!!


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## IanMcC (Dec 7, 2020)

wjemather said:



			Certainly shouldn't be doing manual calculations. And the three initial scores should continue to be part of ongoing (most recent 20) calculations, so must be entered (either via ISV, or directly in WHS).
		
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Thanks for that advice.

Funny enough I got 3 cards in this morning for a new member. Here, rightly or wrongly, is the procedure I went through.


Opened up 2 browser tabs. One for ClubV1 and one for Dashboard.
Created new member on Dashboard. Went to ClubV1 and fetched his name, email address and date of birth, and added these to the dashboard profile.
Once submitted a CDH number was created on Dashboard. I copied this into his ClubV1 profile.
I manually added the three dated cards on Dashboard. This created his Handicap Index, which tallied with what I had worked out.
Finally I synced the data on ClubV1 under ClubV1 Scoring Record/+.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Thanks for that advice.

Funny enough I got 3 cards in this morning for a new member. Here, rightly or wrongly, is the procedure I went through.


Opened up 2 browser tabs. One for ClubV1 and one for Dashboard.
Created new member on Dashboard. Went to ClubV1 and fetched his name, email address and date of birth, and added these to the dashboard profile.
Once submitted a CDH number was created on Dashboard. I copied this into his ClubV1 profile.
I manually added the three dated cards on Dashboard. This created his Handicap Index, which tallied with what I had worked out.
Finally I synced the data on ClubV1 under ClubV1 Scoring Record/+.


Click to expand...

Old Skier informed me how it can all be done in Club V1.

Once you have the player in Club V1, with all their personal details, you go into the Club V1 scoring record. Next comes the counter intuitive bit - you have to Add an Existing Handicap, then hit Save and Continue in the Dialogue Box comes up. Then, you need to Assign a CDH ID in the dark grey box with the players summary details. Once done, you can start entering scores, and the player will appear on the WHS Portal.


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## Old Skier (Dec 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, yesterday 2 players entered a General Play Round, and submitted scores afterwards.

This morning I logged in to see if these scores had been transferred to WHS. However, I notice that the 2 guys set their round to "non-qualifying", so it does not go towards their WHS. Quite frankly, the terminology used in Club V1 is ridiculous. We all may know what qualifying and non-qualifying used to mean, but many regular golfers have no clue. In their mind, qualifying means competition and non-qualifying means social golf. Qualifying isn't even a term used anymore. Why on earth can the software not clarify, in easy terms, whether the golfer wants the round to count for handicap or not. I'm not even convinced there should be a "non-qualifying" option, as presumably golfers want it to count towards handicap if they are going to the effort of logging their score.

My other worry is that, whatever the golfer submits, there will be no "Accept" option for the Committee, and so it will go to their handicap regardless of mistakes. Furthermore, and especially this time of year, there are many days were we could be on many temporary greens, certainly more than 2. I cannot contact the club every single day and find out what the course set up is like, and it can change throughout the day. So, golfers can easily enter general play rounds, and I will simply have to accept them unless I am out on the course that day and know it should not be Acceptable
		
Click to expand...

Are you certain that when a casual qualifying round is submitted that, as you had to when a supplementary was submitted, they don’t need to be accepted by a V1 user.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are you certain that when a casual qualifying round is submitted that, as you had to when a supplementary was submitted, they don’t need to be accepted by a V1 user.
		
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The only option on Club V1 is for me to Delete the score. Nothing else. I was going to ask if there is a hidden option to accept it, but then I noticed they set it as a non-qualifying round when they registered


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## Old Skier (Dec 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The only option on Club V1 is for me to Delete the score. Nothing else. I was going to ask if there is a hidden option to accept it, but then I noticed they set it as a non-qualifying round when they registered
		
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Hopefully it will be the same as before, when they submit a qualifying casual round it will have to be accepted.


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## wjemather (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully it will be the same as before, when they submit a qualifying casual round it will have to be accepted.
		
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I'd guess no action is required in order to ensure scores get posted to WHS promptly (per the rules) , with verification & amendments to be done later.


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## Old Skier (Dec 7, 2020)

wjemather said:



			I'd guess no action is required in order to ensure scores get posted to WHS promptly (per the rules) , with verification & amendments to be done later.
		
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I’d hope that verification is done before scores are submitted WHS otherwise I don’t see the point of the rule that players need to register before playing a casual round.


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## wjemather (Dec 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I’d hope that verification is done before scores are submitted WHS otherwise I don’t see the point of the rule that players need to register before playing a casual round.
		
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The requirement is to prevent players from manipulating their handicap index by submitting only their good (or bad) scores.


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## rosecott (Dec 7, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			We had our first comp yesterday under the new system.

Scores and handicaps seem to have been updated correctly in players records but there is still a discrepancy between a players index and what is shown in the Handicapping Report available from within the Dotgolf system.

My index rose from 11.1 to 11.3 after yesterdays round....shows as 11.3 in HandicapMaster, the EG App and on the Dotgolf portal. But if you generate a handicap list from within the Dotgolf portal it still shows as 11.1 !!!
		
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There seems to be some sort of time lag. When I called up a player this morning, the first screen showed his HI but if you clicked on scoring history it showed a different figure. Later in the day, the figures were the same.


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## nickjdavis (Dec 8, 2020)

When i entered the scores from the comp on sunday evening and checked my own record in the Dotgolf portal it told me my index was 11.1 on one screen but on the other screen it said 11.1 (estimated to change to 11.3 tomorrow).

Indeed it had changed overnight as t should have done....but it is in the "Member Handicap Report" that it is wrong....and as I've just checked....still wrong!!!


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## IanMcC (Dec 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			After writing to CSI a few times, and speaking to a number of their reps, finally received this today regarding Club not recognising the 2 tee comp adjustment:

Hi Ian,



Thank you for your email.



This issue has been reported by multiple clubs and we should hopefully have a fix released for this on Monday night.


Kind regards,
CSiCare
Matt
		
Click to expand...

Now Tuesday morning.
Still no change.
Cant say I am too surprised.


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## fenwayrich (Dec 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Now Tuesday morning.
Still no change.
Cant say I am too surprised.
		
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Me neither. Hope it's done in the next day or so. We have a Christmas 4ball competition on Sunday with 2 tees being used.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

I have an away member who doesn’t appear on my club dashboard and I cannot assign him his handicap index on the ISV. Any ideas


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## rosecott (Dec 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I have an away member who doesn’t appear on my club dashboard and I cannot assign him his handicap index on the ISV. Any ideas
		
Click to expand...

His Home Club are the only ones who are able to sort that. All my Away players' clubs have done their bit and their data appears when I click on them.


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## rosecott (Dec 9, 2020)

I was highly chuffed today. I finally got EG to set up front and back 9 scorecards for General Play scores and I submitted a 9-hole GP score from Sunday through our ISV and it worked perfectly - score was on the dashboard almost instantly.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

rosecott said:



			His Home Club are the only ones who are able to sort that. All my Away players' clubs have done their bit and their data appears when I click on them.
		
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Yep thanks added them as a member and did a merge and data all there. Do away members need to register on home and away systems?


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I was highly chuffed today. I finally got EG to set up front and back 9 scorecards for General Play scores and I submitted a 9-hole GP score from Sunday through our ISV and it worked perfectly - score was on the dashboard almost instantly.
		
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What’s the process.


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## rosecott (Dec 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yep thanks added them as a member and did a merge and data all there. Do away members need to register on home and away systems?
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have thought so. If his Home Club is correctly identified on your ISV and that Home Club is up and running on WHS, it should be automatic. I think such changes are updated overnight.


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## rosecott (Dec 9, 2020)

I think his Home Club has to record on his ISV record that he is also a member of x club, but not certain of that.


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## rosecott (Dec 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What’s the process.
		
Click to expand...

Don't know about V1 but it was absolute simplicity on Handicapmaster. Call up the player, select General Play score entry, select course - 18-hole, front 9 or back 9 - scorecard appears, enter scores, job done. Checked on dashboard about 3 or 4 minutes later and the score was on there and his 20 scores updated. It was not in his best 8.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I’d hope that verification is done before scores are submitted WHS otherwise I don’t see the point of the rule that players need to register before playing a casual round.
		
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It has changed since WHS cutover. Initially (certainly on Club V1) the "Casual Round" scores were held with an Accept / Reject option for the administrator and were not processed until a positive decision was taken. Now they go straight into WHS and there is only a delete option available.

Not Good in my opinion.


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## rosecott (Dec 9, 2020)

It's been a good day so far - and they have been few and far between - as we had our first PCC, 2 from yesterday's comp (it was bloody cold).


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 9, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Don't know about V1 but it was absolute simplicity on Handicapmaster. Call up the player, select General Play score entry, select course - 18-hole, front 9 or back 9 - scorecard appears, enter scores, job done. Checked on dashboard about 3 or 4 minutes later and the score was on there and his 20 scores updated. It was not in his best 8.
		
Click to expand...

Similar on V1 when you add the score having chosen a 9 hole course. Little chance of a PCC being calculated due to the low number of rounds until we see a 9 hole comp.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Similar on V1 when you add the score having chosen a 9 hole course. Little chance of a PCC being calculated due to the low number of rounds until we see a 9 hole comp.
		
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But I cannot see the 9 hole courses on the dashboard or the app even though I have courses set on my ISV


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## rulefan (Dec 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			But I cannot see the 9 hole courses on the dashboard or the app even though I have courses set on my ISV
		
Click to expand...

I think EG have to set them up in the WHS platform.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I think EG have to set them up in the WHS platform.
		
Click to expand...

Do you know who to go to so I can get the ball rolling


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2020)

I see England Golf have issues a formal process (e-mail bulletin) on how to enter scores for General Play rounds. including at an Away club, which is:


Pre-register with the host club, either by the Club's own software or simply telling the Pro/Club Manager of an intention to submit a score
Play and enjoy the round in accordance with the Rules of Golf
Ask the host club to enter the score on your behalf either into the WHS Platform or their club software
If the host club at an "away" venue cannot enter the score, return to Home Club asap.
I can almost guarantee that there will be no-one at my club that can enter an away players score when that score is returned. Pre-registration for an away player will be a fairly pointless task, as that information will not be passed on to their club for checking. At best, it will be hit and miss depending on who is working at any given time, with staff generally serving at the bar and knowing very little about golf. As handicap secretary at my club, it will be interesting to see if I start getting a lot of card submissions from members playing at Away courses. All it takes is a few large societies playing away somewhere, deciding to submit their scores and not being able to enter them at the host club. It will start getting frustrating if it appears only a few decent scores are being submitted, and I never see the bad scores and no way on knowing who was actually playing.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I see England Golf have issues a formal process (e-mail bulletin) on how to enter scores for General Play rounds. including at an Away club, which is:


Pre-register with the host club, either by the Club's own software or simply telling the Pro/Club Manager of an intention to submit a score
Play and enjoy the round in accordance with the Rules of Golf
Ask the host club to enter the score on your behalf either into the WHS Platform or their club software
If the host club at an "away" venue cannot enter the score, return to Home Club asap.
I can almost guarantee that there will be no-one at my club that can enter an away players score when that score is returned. Pre-registration for an away player will be a fairly pointless task, as that information will not be passed on to their club for checking. At best, it will be hit and miss depending on who is working at any given time, with staff generally serving at the bar and knowing very little about golf. As handicap secretary at my club, it will be interesting to see if I start getting a lot of card submissions from members playing at Away courses. All it takes is a few large societies playing away somewhere, deciding to submit their scores and not being able to enter them at the host club. It will start getting frustrating if it appears only a few decent scores are being submitted, and I never see the bad scores and no way on knowing who was actually playing.
		
Click to expand...

Although due to the shortened course at Tavistock we couldn’t do away cards but having a chat with the pro he would stamp and sign a card showing that a visitor had registered however the sticking point is informing the visitors club. Could be done via email but still takes up someone’s time.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			It has changed since WHS cutover. Initially (certainly on Club V1) the "Casual Round" scores were held with an Accept / Reject option for the administrator and were not processed until a positive decision was taken. Now they go straight into WHS and there is only a delete option available.

Not Good in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

There’s a webinar with V1 on 17th and I submitted a question on re-introduce the old system, be interesting to see what they say.


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## rosecott (Dec 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Do you know who to go to so I can get the ball rolling
		
Click to expand...

Just the normal England Golf team via whs.support@englandgolf.org.

This was the message I got when I asked for changes:

Course changes, for example adding 9 hole courses to WHS Platform, need to emailed in to whs.support@englandgolf.org with specific requirements, e.g. White Men F9, together with copies of Course measurement certificate, scorecard and Slope Certificate.


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## jim8flog (Dec 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I’d hope that verification is done before scores are submitted WHS otherwise I don’t see the point of the rule that players need to register before playing a casual round.
		
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 Having played a preregistered round last week and returning the card late afternoon and inputting the scores on the PSI computer I checked in the morning that my HI had changed. Later the following day I received an email from the club to say the score had been confirmed.  Quite what they would then do if the score or something is incorrect is something I do not know.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2020)

Did I read somewhere the default setting for non-qualifiers for playing handicap = 100% course handicap on Club V1? Seniors play today, and it appears their scores are all based on their course handicap.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Did I read somewhere the default setting for non-qualifiers for playing handicap = 100% course handicap on Club V1? Seniors play today, and it appears their scores are all based on their course handicap.
		
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When you set up a NQ the default is 100 %. We have decided to us 95% even on NQs so that people get used to it.


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## Old Skier (Dec 10, 2020)

Help

Thought I had the dashboard cracked ( silly me) 

I have an away member all set up on the dashboard with no problem but I cannot allocate his HC on my ISV - tried sync.

Also ALL my AWAY members CDH/members numbers have disappeared of the dashboard.

Anyone with sthe same issue.

V1 user.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Help

Thought I had the dashboard cracked ( silly me)

I have an away member all set up on the dashboard with no problem but I cannot allocate his HC on my ISV - tried sync.

Also ALL my AWAY members CDH/members numbers have disappeared of the dashboard.

Anyone with sthe same issue.

V1 user.
		
Click to expand...

I think you need to do it the other way around.

Set the user up on V1 as an away member with their membership (CDH) number loaded on the record. When it updates the EGP it should pull the relevant information across.


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## Old Skier (Dec 10, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think you need to do it the other way around.

Set the user up on V1 as an away member with their membership (CDH) number loaded on the record. When it updates the EGP it should pull the relevant information across.
		
Click to expand...

Tried that way first as I assumed that was the logical way but that didn’t work in transferring any info to database but when the admin person set them up, they didn't put in a HC (no knowledge of golf) Just the CDH.

I then went to dashboard did an enter new player, found them and merged assuming that the HI would transfer to ISV overnight. Didn't  push his HI across and still not able to insert a HI on the ISV.
This whole thing is currently a full time job.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2020)

Seniors played a competition yesterday. They incorrectly set it to non-qualifier, so no handicap changes and Club V1 assumed Playing Handicap was 100% of Course Handicap.

They went back in to system last night, and changed it to a qualifier. Playing Handicap still 100% course handicap, but I guess that just needed to be changed in settings. 

*WORRINGLY*, despite the fact it was changed to a qualifier, none of the scores were transferred to WHS, and so no scores were added to the Scoring History of players. Any ideas???


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## Old Skier (Dec 10, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Seniors played a competition yesterday. They incorrectly set it to non-qualifier, so no handicap changes and Club V1 assumed Playing Handicap was 100% of Course Handicap.

They went back in to system last night, and changed it to a qualifier. Playing Handicap still 100% course handicap, but I guess that just needed to be changed in settings.

*WORRINGLY*, despite the fact it was changed to a qualifier, none of the scores were transferred to WHS, and so no scores were added to the Scoring History of players. Any ideas???
		
Click to expand...

Once you have set up a comp and people have entered changing it causes issues let alone closing a comp under one set of conditions opening it and then changing things To a different set of conditions.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Once you have set up a comp and people have entered changing it causes issues let alone closing a comp under one set of conditions opening it and then changing things To a different set of conditions.
		
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Wow, CSICare world record in replying. TWO MINUTES was their response time to an e-mail.

The answer is: You need to go into "Scores" in the Competition. Click on every single player individually, and Resend their score to CDH. This solved the problem.


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## rulefan (Dec 10, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Wow, CSICare world record in replying. TWO MINUTES was their response time to an e-mail.

The answer is: You need to go into "Scores" in the Competition. Click on every single player individually, and Resend their score to CDH. This solved the problem.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps your question had a secret keyword which prompted an automatic reply or perhaps they have farmed out some enquiries to someone who gives a damn


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Help

Thought I had the dashboard cracked ( silly me)

I have an away member all set up on the dashboard with no problem but I cannot allocate his HC on my ISV - tried sync.

Also ALL my AWAY members CDH/members numbers have disappeared of the dashboard.

Anyone with sthe same issue.

V1 user.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I have one - can see the detail on EG platform but doesn't get copied to V1. Went to support - here was their reply:

Does the member have a Handicap Index and CDH UID on the WHS? If not, please can you ensure the following points are correct in your ClubV1:

1) Did the member have a handicap and CONGU CDH Number in your ClubV1 and were they on the CONGU CDH as a Home Member at your Club.

2) If you go to his record in your ClubV1 and edit. In the Person Wizard go to Contact - has the member been Opted in for the personal data to be uploaded to the WHS platform.

3) Does the member have a date of birth and email address entered on their record in ClubV1?

If all is above correct then it would indicate there is an issue on the WHS Platform. The transfer of scores and handicap data before 02/11 to the WHS CDH Platform was performed by the Golf Unions – ClubV1 only uploaded members’ personal data e.g. email addresses. Please speak to the Golf Union and they should be able to advise on how to resolve this matter.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yes I have one - can see the detail on EG platform but doesn't get copied to V1. Went to support - here was their reply:

Does the member have a Handicap Index and CDH UID on the WHS? If not, please can you ensure the following points are correct in your ClubV1:

1) Did the member have a handicap and CONGU CDH Number in your ClubV1 and were they on the CONGU CDH as a Home Member at your Club.

2) If you go to his record in your ClubV1 and edit. In the Person Wizard go to Contact - has the member been Opted in for the personal data to be uploaded to the WHS platform.

3) Does the member have a date of birth and email address entered on their record in ClubV1?

If all is above correct then it would indicate there is an issue on the WHS Platform. The transfer of scores and handicap data before 02/11 to the WHS CDH Platform was performed by the Golf Unions – ClubV1 only uploaded members’ personal data e.g. email addresses. Please speak to the Golf Union and they should be able to advise on how to resolve this matter.
		
Click to expand...

On the dashboard mine had the necessary CDH HI, it appears after talking to county that his home club doesn’t have his DOB on their system, we do, and that could be the problem along with the fact the user still hasn’t registered.

As to my problem with disappearing CDH No for away players - and if by magic today, they are all back.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

Version 1.2 now out

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf


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## IanMcC (Dec 11, 2020)

Still no joy with ClubV1 amending their software for 2 tee allowances, even after they promised an update last Monday.
Got a reply back from Wales Golf, who I asked to try and hurry them up a bit. Here it is:

_Hi Ian
Sorry for the delay in response.
There has been a number of issues with certain ISV’s which they have been asked to rectify. How quickly they do it we cannot control unfortunately.
My only further comment is we have 8 licensed ISV’s who can provide competition and club management software and so if you are not satisfied with the service you are receiving by a current supplier then there are a number of other options out there for you.

Kind regards_

Dont think he lives in the real world. If I went to my Club Manager asking to change software that has over 800 members details on it, I would be laughed out of the office. 
Looks like Club Systems International are not in favour with Wales Golf either though.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Still no joy with ClubV1 amending their software for 2 tee allowances, even after they promised an update last Monday.
Got a reply back from Wales Golf, who I asked to try and hurry them up a bit. Here it is:

_Hi Ian
Sorry for the delay in response.
There has been a number of issues with certain ISV’s which they have been asked to rectify. How quickly they do it we cannot control unfortunately.
My only further comment is we have 8 licensed ISV’s who can provide competition and club management software and so if you are not satisfied with the service you are receiving by a current supplier then there are a number of other options out there for you._

_Kind regards_

Dont think he lives in the real world. If I went to my Club Manager asking to change software that has over 800 members details on it, I would be laughed out of the office. 
Looks like Club Systems International are not in favour with Wales Golf either though.
		
Click to expand...

And IG not flavour of the month with EG, there’s a bit of a pattern, could it possibly be the different authorities have mucked the ISVs about as much as us.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 11, 2020)

Sigh. So, after following Club V1's advice the other day, when resetting the Seniors comp to qualifying and resending scores to CDH, I was delighted to see their Handicaps were updated n WHS.

Shouldn't have celebrated too soon. Club V1 has not updated their handicaps. For example, the winner now has a WHS Index of 28.2 and a Club V1 / howdidido Index of 34.1. I've had two of the field contact me today, pretty much asking "my handicap on MyEG App and the one on howdidido are different. What the hell one do I use!??????"


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Sigh. So, after following Club V1's advice the other day, when resetting the Seniors comp to qualifying and resending scores to CDH, I was delighted to see their Handicaps were updated n WHS.

Shouldn't have celebrated too soon. Club V1 has not updated their handicaps. For example, the winner now has a WHS Index of 28.2 and a Club V1 / howdidido Index of 34.1. I've had two of the field contact me today, pretty much asking "my handicap on MyEG App and the one on howdidido are different. What the hell one do I use!??????"
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you had to do a sync on every player . Given up trying to figure things out for the weekend.


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## wjemather (Dec 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Sigh. So, after following Club V1's advice the other day, when resetting the Seniors comp to qualifying and resending scores to CDH, I was delighted to see their Handicaps were updated n WHS.

Shouldn't have celebrated too soon. Club V1 has not updated their handicaps. For example, the winner now has a WHS Index of 28.2 and a Club V1 / howdidido Index of 34.1. I've had two of the field contact me today, pretty much asking "my handicap on MyEG App and the one on howdidido are different. What the hell one do I use!??????"
		
Click to expand...

You also need to sync each competitor with WHS individually through their ClubV1 Scoring Record (there is no facility to do a global sync - I asked), and then publish handicaps to HowDidIDo (at least this does sync everyone in one go).
Or wait until everything downloads overnight.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 11, 2020)

wjemather said:



			You also need to sync each competitor with WHS individually through their ClubV1 Scoring Record (there is no facility to do a global sync - I asked), and then publish handicaps to HowDidIDo (at least this does sync everyone in one go).
Or wait until everything downloads overnight.
		
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I did the first bit successfully yesterday, after informed by CSICare. However, the handicaps did not update on Club V1 at all, so it will not be a case of refreshing to howdidido. I did think they might update overnight, but sadly not.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

wjemather said:



			You also need to sync each competitor with WHS individually through their ClubV1 Scoring Record (there is no facility to do a global sync - I asked), and then publish handicaps to HowDidIDo (at least this does sync everyone in one go).
Or wait until everything downloads overnight.
		
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If you ask nicely, sometimes the guys at Club Systems will do a sync for you, depends who you get.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you ask nicely, sometimes the guys at Club Systems will do a sync for you, depends who you get.
		
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It would be preferable if the software just did it by itself


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It would be preferable if the software just did it by itself 

Click to expand...

Is the dashboard and the V1 handicap correct and the HDID HC wrong?


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## jim8flog (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Version 1.2 now out

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf

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The link still brings up version 1.1


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			The link still brings up version 1.1
		
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You might have to clear your cache, I’ve just tried to make sure and it’s 1.2 for me.


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## wjemather (Dec 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I did the first bit successfully yesterday, after informed by CSICare. However, the handicaps did not update on Club V1 at all, so it will not be a case of refreshing to howdidido. I did think they might update overnight, but sadly not.
		
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Should still be able to sync them manually in ClubV1? Ours took a couple of days to sync with WHS at least twice during lockdown.


Old Skier said:



			If you ask nicely, sometimes the guys at Club Systems will do a sync for you, depends who you get.
		
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Took three attempts just to get them to understand I didn't want to sync 500+ members individually. I have submitted an enhancement request.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is the dashboard and the V1 handicap correct and the HDID HC wrong?
		
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WHS Portal correct. Club V1 and howdidido wrong. I've tried to go to individual players on Club V1 to find an option that might connect up with WHS, but nothing stands out.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			WHS Portal correct. Club V1 and howdidido wrong. I've tried to go to individual players on Club V1 to find an option that might connect up with WHS, but nothing stands out.
		
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Forget that, I found it, and it looks like I'll need to Sync every player. So, basically I had to individually send every players score through to WHS. Now I have to individually find every player, and sync on Club V1.

Very tiring this.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Forget that, I found it, and it looks like I'll need to Sync every player. So, basically I had to individually send every players score through to WHS. Now I have to individually find every player, and sync on Club V1.

Very tiring this.
		
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Delegate, get the seniors rep to do it


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## Swango1980 (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Delegate, get the seniors rep to do it 

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Oh, he will next time. Tonight was just for my benefit, so I know what is going on. Next time they can sort themselves out


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## jim8flog (Dec 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You might have to clear your cache, I’ve just tried to make sure and it’s 1.2 for me.
		
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 it is bringing up 1.2 today


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## MICKH (Dec 13, 2020)

Hi,  we have submitted new scores via handicap master and directly into WHS in recent days but they remain stuck as Pending. Has anyone else experienced the same problem ? We are not getting anywhere with England Golf Support thus far.


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## Old Skier (Dec 13, 2020)

MICKH said:



			Hi,  we have submitted new scores via handicap master and directly into WHS in recent days but they remain stuck as Pending. Has anyone else experienced the same problem ? We are not getting anywhere with England Golf Support thus far.
		
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Try a sync on one player to see if that works. I presume you have all registered on the WHS site,


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## rosecott (Dec 13, 2020)

MICKH said:



			Hi,  we have submitted new scores via handicap master and directly into WHS in recent days but they remain stuck as Pending. Has anyone else experienced the same problem ? We are not getting anywhere with England Golf Support thus far.
		
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AS a fellow Handicapmaster user, I am a bit puzzled as to why you entered the scores into both Handicapmaster and the WHS platform - or have I misunderstood. Were you dealing with scores that were on Handicapmaster but failed to be transferred to WHS?


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## rosecott (Dec 13, 2020)

MICKH said:



			Hi,  we have submitted new scores via handicap master and directly into WHS in recent days but they remain stuck as Pending. Has anyone else experienced the same problem ? We are not getting anywhere with England Golf Support thus far.
		
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This is what EG say on pending scores:

*PENDING SCORES*
Some scores within a member’s playing record are showing as pending. This is linked to the issue identified with the mapping of tees. Therefore, once tees are corrected on the WHS platform, the pending status will be removed.

Perhaps your club needs to check that the course details on the WHS platform are correct.


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## MICKH (Dec 13, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. Yes, tees are mapped and members are registered. Issues relating to pending scores / tee mapping were a common problem but only for historic scores. Our issues are new scores I.e post go live date. We have loaded via HM and directly into WHS simply to test as to whether the issue lay with HM i.e if score loaded directly to WHS calculated and the HM load did not then we would know that the issue sat with the data load. However, neither score calculates as part of the rolling 20 scores.


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MICKH said:



			Thanks for the replies. Yes, tees are mapped and members are registered. Issues relating to pending scores / tee mapping were a common problem but only for historic scores. Our issues are new scores I.e post go live date. We have loaded via HM and directly into WHS simply to test as to whether the issue lay with HM i.e if score loaded directly to WHS calculated and the HM load did not then we would know that the issue sat with the data load. However, neither score calculates as part of the rolling 20 scores.
		
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Have you posted on the HM support forum? https://www.handicapmaster.org/forums3/viewforum.php?f=3


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## MICKH (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have you posted on the HM support forum? https://www.handicapmaster.org/forums3/viewforum.php?f=3

Click to expand...

Thanks. I’ve been in direct contact with Handicap Master and they don’t see any issues. The data has loaded to WHS as it should. For some reason the scores are not being included in the daily calculation update in WHS itself


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## MICKH (Dec 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Try a sync on one player to see if that works. I presume you have all registered on the WHS site,
		
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Thanks OS. Yes, all registered.  Sync in which platform ? WHS ? I can’t see an option to do that


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## rosecott (Dec 13, 2020)

MICKH said:



			Thanks OS. Yes, all registered.  Sync in which platform ? WHS ? I can’t see an option to do that
		
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OS is a V1 user so I don't think his comment about syncing is relevant to Handicapmaster. It all seems very strange. Since WHS went live, we have run 5 counting competitions plus a handful of non-comp General Scores and they have all worked perfectly. As players were posting scores into Masterscoreboard, those scores were being uploaded on a continuous basis to the WHS platform - I had to check this for myself as it seemed to be too good to be true, the effect on a player's HI happening within a few minutes of the score being entered and before the comp was even closed. 

My first impression when you posted was that it did not seem a good idea to post the same scores to the ISV and then post the same scores directly into WHS but you sound as if you are pretty desperate. Let us know how things develop and the best of luck with it.


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## Old Skier (Dec 14, 2020)

MICKH said:



			Thanks OS. Yes, all registered.  Sync in which platform ? WHS ? I can’t see an option to do that
		
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Sync from the players record on your ISV but @rosecott writes that you might not have that facility.


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## MICKH (Dec 14, 2020)

rosecott said:



			OS is a V1 user so I don't think his comment about syncing is relevant to Handicapmaster. It all seems very strange. Since WHS went live, we have run 5 counting competitions plus a handful of non-comp General Scores and they have all worked perfectly. As players were posting scores into Masterscoreboard, those scores were being uploaded on a continuous basis to the WHS platform - I had to check this for myself as it seemed to be too good to be true, the effect on a player's HI happening within a few minutes of the score being entered and before the comp was even closed.

My first impression when you posted was that it did not seem a good idea to post the same scores to the ISV and then post the same scores directly into WHS but you sound as if you are pretty desperate. Let us know how things develop and the best of luck with it.
		
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Thanks 🙂 the two scores were actually from two different competitions so it was more a means of testing for system issues than anything else. We’ve never had a moments trouble with HM and their team are very responsive to any issues. Given where we are I’m now as sure as I can be that the WHS platform is the issue but I sense England Golf are overwhelmed with problems. What a mess !!


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## rosecott (Dec 14, 2020)

MICKH said:



			Thanks 🙂 the two scores were actually from two different competitions so it was more a means of testing for system issues than anything else. We’ve never had a moments trouble with HM and their team are very responsive to any issues. Given where we are I’m now as sure as I can be that the WHS platform is the issue but I sense England Golf are overwhelmed with problems. What a mess !!
		
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I had another thought in the middle of the night. When you say the scores which were input were pending, did you mean that the Handicap Index of the players concerned were pending?


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## MICKH (Dec 14, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I had another thought in the middle of the night. When you say the scores which were input were pending, did you mean that the Handicap Index of the players concerned were pending?[/
It means that scores 1 and 2 in the player profile are loaded to WHS but are not part of the daily handicap index calculation. That is being continuously being calculated from scores 3 to 22. Scores 1 and 2 are listed as pending and do not get brought into the daily calculation. As a result, a players handicap index will never change until this issue is resolved no matter how many new scores we load.
		
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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2020)

Outstanding by the team at WHS dealing with adding courses to the database. Sent all the necessary information for 9 hole Q’s Monday, all done by last night.


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## fenwayrich (Dec 17, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Now Tuesday morning.
Still no change.
Cant say I am too surprised.
		
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Still no way of amending handicaps for two tee competitions on ClubV1, as far as I can see. Perhaps I am wrong though.


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## MICKH (Dec 17, 2020)

We have made some progress on our issues in that scores are now being processed once loaded. However, indexes are now being calculated on a random number of cards from the top 20 as opposed to the best 8. Some are based on 3 cards, some on 5 etc,etc. One step forwards and one step backwards........


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## IanMcC (Dec 17, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			Still no way of amending handicaps for two tee competitions on ClubV1, as far as I can see. Perhaps I am wrong though.
		
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Not until Club Systems get their finger out, no! At the moment I am manually adjusting the score for competition purposes.


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			Still no way of amending handicaps for two tee competitions on ClubV1, as far as I can see. Perhaps I am wrong though.
		
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Just did the V1 webinar and they are working on this and hope to have it sorted soon. You can watch the webinar on there YouTube channel and they hope to have it up on site in a day or two.

Very useful


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Outstanding by the team at WHS dealing with adding courses to the database. Sent all the necessary information for 9 hole Q’s Monday, all done by last night.
		
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When it’s done ensure you use the drop down menus on V1 to ensure the correct CR and slope are with each course, mine weren’t but easy to rectify.


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## rulefan (Dec 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just did the V1 webinar and they are working on this and hope to have it sorted soon. You can watch the webinar on there YouTube channel and they hope to have it up on site in a day or two.

Very useful
		
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Have you hot a link?


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have you hot a link?
		
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As soon as I hea it’s been put up I’ll have a look as I want my committee to look at it.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have you hot a link?
		
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Here it is, useful for V1 users


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## rulefan (Dec 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Here it is, useful for V1 users
		
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Thanks. Found it and have watched it earlier this am


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## IanMcC (Dec 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Here it is, useful for V1 users 





Click to expand...

Watched this today. I think they should be quite ashamed of themselves. They say that the WHS changeover has been full of problems. From what I observe it is the ISVs where most of the problems lie. For example, I received an email over a month ago from CSI stating that the 2 tee adjustment had been fixed. I told them it hadn't. About 10 days ago they said they would have it fixed 'by Monday'. Still not fixed, and the webinar says they are still working on it. A bunch of rank amateurs I feel.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Watched this today. I think they should be quite ashamed of themselves. They say that the WHS changeover has been full of problems. From what I observe it is the ISVs where most of the problems lie. For example, I received an email over a month ago from CSI stating that the 2 tee adjustment had been fixed. I told them it hadn't. About 10 days ago they said they would have it fixed 'by Monday'. Still not fixed, and the webinar says they are still working on it. A bunch of rank amateurs I feel.
		
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I agree there are issues that need dealing with and the 2 tee adjustments should have been fixed early on as that was a part of what WHS is all about but I have had more of a problem with the WHS EG team than the ISV.


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## IanMcC (Dec 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Watched this today. I think they should be quite ashamed of themselves. They say that the WHS changeover has been full of problems. From what I observe it is the ISVs where most of the problems lie. For example, I received an email over a month ago from CSI stating that the 2 tee adjustment had been fixed. I told them it hadn't. About 10 days ago they said they would have it fixed 'by Monday'. Still not fixed, and the webinar says they are still working on it. A bunch of rank amateurs I feel.
		
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And let's not forget that their users manual, which should have been ready for the changeover, is not expected until mid January. Oh, and one of their online live examples had to be abandoned because it didn't update. No wonder Wales Golf hinted that other ISVs are available.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			And let's not forget that their users manual, which should have been ready for the changeover, is not expected until mid January. Oh, and one of their online live examples had to be abandoned because it didn't update. No wonder Wales Golf hinted that other ISVs are available.
		
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I was surprised they did an online live example, with the time it takes for our PSI/app to talk to their server due to poor broad band connectivity they could wait anything up to 5 min.


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## IanMcC (Dec 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I agree there are issues that need dealing with and the 2 tee adjustments should have been fixed early on as that was a part of what WHS is all about but I have had more of a problem with the WHS EG team than the ISV.
		
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I have to say that Wales Golf have been pretty good in this respect. Only today, after less than a week since I asked, they set up our 9 hole courses on WHS. I haven't run any acceptable comps yet, but casual rounds and new members have been stress free.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I have to say that Wales Golf have been pretty good in this respect. Only today, after less than a week since I asked, they set up our 9 hole courses on WHS. I haven't run any acceptable comps yet, but casual rounds and new members have been stress free.
		
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Funny enough setting up 9 hole courses was the quickest response I had, less than 3 days although when I checked the CR and slope on the ISV I had to check the CDH courses and use the drop down menus to put the correct slopes in as it must default to the 18 hole slope.


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## IanMcC (Dec 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Funny enough setting up 9 hole courses was the quickest response I had, less than 3 days although when I checked the CR and slope on the ISV I had to check the CDH courses and use the drop down menus to put the correct slopes in as it must default to the 18 hole slope.
		
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I really don't know the mechanics of setting this on ClubV1. I don't have access to course settings on my login, and I have pestered the office and the pro to set this up. Now that WHS is set up, will it write over to ClubV1 automatically, or is intervention still required? Our 9 hole courses don't go live on WHS until tomorrow,  btw.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I really don't know the mechanics of setting this on ClubV1. I don't have access to course settings on my login, and I have pestered the office and the pro to set this up. Now that WHS is set up, will it write over to ClubV1 automatically, or is intervention still required? Our 9 hole courses don't go live on WHS until tomorrow,  btw.
		
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Providing they have set up the courses and the CDH courses it will be automatic but as I mentioned before they will need to check on the CDH courses that the correct CR and slope are being used, providing its all set up correctly they will see all the slopes in the drop down menus.


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## IanMcC (Dec 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Providing they have set up the courses and the CDH courses it will be automatic but as I mentioned before they will need to check on the CDH courses that the correct CR and slope are being used, providing its all set up correctly they will see all the slopes in the drop down menus.
		
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By 'they' if you mean our staff at the golf club then I think they have done nothing, as they don't understand what is needed. I myself don't fully understand, to be honest. I may well seek your help again if our club need to do anything after tomorrow.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			By 'they' if you mean our staff at the golf club then I think they have done nothing, as they don't understand what is needed. I myself don't fully understand, to be honest. I may well seek your help again if our club need to do anything after tomorrow.
		
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No problem. Help where I can or I’m sure there will always be someone on here to assist as well. The courses set up does catch a few out.


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## fenwayrich (Dec 18, 2020)

Found it interesting, the more information is made available the better. It's becoming abundantly clear that there is a lot still to be done. Not great given how long WHS has been in the pipeline. Their example of calculating playing handicaps also seemed to be incorrect as it took 95% of the unrounded course handicap which I believe only applies to Scotland.
The handout of Guidance for the WHS was the initial version, I think that there have been two updates since the first one, albeit with very minor amendments.


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## wjemather (Dec 19, 2020)

Not sure what I was expecting, but as far as using ClubV1 goes, I found the webinar quite basic and not particularly helpful other than getting an insight into how far behind development is. Possibly the most revealing thing was the hint that Spring is (and probably always has always been) their target for getting the system working as needed for WHS.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I agree there are issues that need dealing with and the 2 tee adjustments should have been fixed early on as that was a part of what WHS is all about but I have had more of a problem with the WHS EG team than the ISV.
		
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Any update on this - we have a mixed comp tomorrow and it looks a nightmare to work out shots without working software.


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## IanMcC (Dec 20, 2020)

Our 9 hole slope and course ratings have just been added to WHS, which is great.

This has got me delving deeper into the world of 9 hole course handicap calculations, however, and I am utterly confused.

I know that I would receive 3 shots on our yellow front 9, as I set up a dummy comp on ClubV1. For the life of me I cannot get the maths to work out though.

Page 64 of the RoH book provides the formula for working out a 9-hole course handicap.

CH=HI/2 x [(9 hole slope/113) + (9 hole rating – 9 hole par)]

My Handicap index is 7.8. Yellow front 9 slope is 125. Yellow front 9 rating is 35.5. Yellow front 9 par is 37

So, substituting those values into the equation gives

7.8/2 x [(125/113) + (35.5 – 37)]

Or 3.9 x [1.1 + (-1.5)]

Or 3.9 x – 0.4

= -1.56

This answer is nowhere near 3. Can someone point out the error of my ways, please?


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## IanMcC (Dec 20, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Any update on this - we have a mixed comp tomorrow and it looks a nightmare to work out shots without working software.
		
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You need to consult Rule 6.2b on page 65 of the RoH book. Here it tells you how to calculate allowances for 2 tee comps. It depends if it is a Stableford or Strokeplay format. The ones we run on a Wednesday are Stableford. The ladies should get 1 shot added. Here is why.

To play to handicap = 36 – (Course rating – Par)

For a man at our course this is 36 – (71.3 - 72), which comes out to 36.7, which equates to 37

For a lady this is 36 – (73.8 – 74), which comes out to 36.2, which equates to 36.

So each lady gets one more shot added on to her playing handicap.

Because of the nature of our pars and ratings, if the same comp was white tees for the men, the men would receive 2 shots!!


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Our 9 hole slope and course ratings have just been added to WHS, which is great.

This has got me delving deeper into the world of 9 hole course handicap calculations, however, and I am utterly confused.

I know that I would receive 3 shots on our yellow front 9, as I set up a dummy comp on ClubV1. For the life of me I cannot get the maths to work out though.

Page 64 of the RoH book provides the formula for working out a 9-hole course handicap.

CH=HI/2 x [(9 hole slope/113) + (9 hole rating – 9 hole par)]

My Handicap index is 7.8. Yellow front 9 slope is 125. Yellow front 9 rating is 35.5. Yellow front 9 par is 37

So, substituting those values into the equation gives

7.8/2 x [(125/113) + (35.5 – 37)]

Or 3.9 x [1.1 + (-1.5)]

Or 3.9 x – 0.4

= -1.56

This answer is nowhere near 3. Can someone point out the error of my ways, please?
		
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You lost me on the maths but are you suggesting that the 9 hole HC that the slope table for 9 holes is different from what your 9 hole CH is on your ISV


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## wjemather (Dec 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Our 9 hole slope and course ratings have just been added to WHS, which is great.

This has got me delving deeper into the world of 9 hole course handicap calculations, however, and I am utterly confused.

I know that I would receive 3 shots on our yellow front 9, as I set up a dummy comp on ClubV1. For the life of me I cannot get the maths to work out though.

Page 64 of the RoH book provides the formula for working out a 9-hole course handicap.



My Handicap index is 7.8. Yellow front 9 slope is 125. Yellow front 9 rating is 35.5. Yellow front 9 par is 37

So, substituting those values into the equation gives

7.8/2 x [(125/113) + (35.5 – 37)]

Or 3.9 x [1.1 + (-1.5)]

Or 3.9 x – 0.4

= -1.56

This answer is nowhere near 3. Can someone point out the error of my ways, please?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the CONGU manual confuses this calculation massively by means of ill thought out shaded boxes (the shading is different in the USGA manual, so the calculation is much clearer), but CR-Par is added at the end, so...

CH = [ (HI/2) x (9 hole slope/113) ] + (9 hole rating – 9 hole par)

For you, this means: [ (7.8/2) x (125/113) ] + (35.5 – 37) = (3.9 x 1.11) + (-1.5) = 4.3 - 1.5 = 2.8 = 3


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## IanMcC (Dec 20, 2020)

wjemather said:



			Unfortunately the CONGU manual confuses this calculation massively by means of ill thought out shaded boxes (the shading is different in the USGA manual, so the calculation is much clearer), but CR-Par is added at the end, so...

CH = [ (HI/2) x (9 hole slope/113) ] + (9 hole rating – 9 hole par)

For you, this means: [ (7.8/2) x (125/113) ] + (35.5 – 37) = (3.9 x 1.11) + (-1.5) = 4.3 - 1.5 = 2.8 = 3
		
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Many thanks. As you say, the shading in the UK book makes it mathematically incorrect. Makes perfect sense the way you have written it here.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2020)

The abuse of WHS begins. 

3 days ago, a single figure handicapper, who has never yet played to handicap in comps since joining, shot a nett 63 in a knock around. I've now been up to club today, and see he has entered it on howdidido as a General Play Round. He pre-registered 2 mins before entering score.

I've contacted him saying I'll have to delete this score. Is this correct? 

At any rate, know he knows why, what is stopping anyone having a good round, registering and then entering score 3 hours later? 

We had a comp.yesterday, so he was playing off the wrong handicap (although too low). What would happen if it was other way round, I had to delete a general play round, meaning his handicap was too high in comp (bearing in mind comp was yesterday and effectively closed)


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## wjemather (Dec 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The abuse of WHS begins.

3 days ago, a single figure handicapper, who has never yet played to handicap in comps since joining, shot a nett 63 in a knock around. I've now been up to club today, and see he has entered it on howdidido as a General Play Round. He pre-registered 2 mins before entering score.

I've contacted him saying I'll have to delete this score. Is this correct?

At any rate, know he knows why, what is stopping anyone having a good round, registering and then entering score 3 hours later?

We had a comp.yesterday, so he was playing off the wrong handicap (although too low). What would happen if it was other way round, I had to delete a general play round, meaning his handicap was too high in comp (bearing in mind comp was yesterday and effectively closed)
		
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Yes, the score should be deleted as it was not submitted within the rules of handicapping. It sounds like they are wilfully violating the rules of handicapping and need reminding of their responsibilities; it it continues, I'd consider withdrawing their Handicap Index.

If such behaviour resulted the wrong handicap in a comp (high or low, but especially high), I'd probably DQ since they are the cause. Maybe add something to the general competition terms for clarity.

I've requested an option in ClubV1 such that the Pro Shop can register intents and we can then not use PSI/howdidido as it is too open to manipulation such as you've described.


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## rulefan (Dec 20, 2020)

wjemather said:



			Unfortunately the CONGU manual confuses this calculation massively by means of ill thought out shaded boxes (the shading is different in the USGA manual, so the calculation is much clearer), but CR-Par is added at the end, so...

CH = [ (HI/2) x (9 hole slope/113) ] + (9 hole rating – 9 hole par)

For you, this means: [ (7.8/2) x (125/113) ] + (35.5 – 37) = (3.9 x 1.11) + (-1.5) = 4.3 - 1.5 = 2.8 = 3
		
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I had reported this to EG a short while ago.


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## IanMcC (Dec 20, 2020)

Is there any logical reason why ClubV1 do not have the option to run a mixed 9 hole comp? Currently we have an 11 hole stableford comp on a Friday, open to ladies and gents. Come Spring when we have acceptable conditions again I would like to make this a 9 hole 'qualifier'. Currently I would have to set up 2 separate comps on ClubV1. Do other ISVs have a mixed 9 hole comp option? Also, I think I would need another HI to CH board, specifically for 9 hole comps. How do other clubs cope with this?


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## wjemather (Dec 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Is there any logical reason why ClubV1 do not have the option to run a mixed 9 hole comp? Currently we have an 11 hole stableford comp on a Friday, open to ladies and gents. Come Spring when we have acceptable conditions again I would like to make this a 9 hole 'qualifier'. Currently I would have to set up 2 separate comps on ClubV1. Do other ISVs have a mixed 9 hole comp option? Also, I think I would need another HI to CH board, specifically for 9 hole comps. How do other clubs cope with this?
		
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No logical reason I can think of. It's one of many enhancement requests I have submitted as far as the competition templates goes. Hopefully it's on the list as we are trying to make most of our general comps open to all members.

We simply have CH tables (printed on heavy paper) relevant to the courses of the day posted in the pro shop and on noticeboards.


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## IanMcC (Dec 20, 2020)

wjemather said:



			We simply have CH tables (printed on heavy paper) relevant to the courses of the day posted in the pro shop and on noticeboards.
		
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I wasn't sent an excel spreadsheet from Wales Golf for the 9 hole courses, unlike the 18 hole courses which were fully covered. The 9 hole conversion is a little more complex, as it involves par as well as course and slope ratings. 
Have you worked these out yourself? Very impressive if you have.


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## wjemather (Dec 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I wasn't sent an excel spreadsheet from Wales Golf for the 9 hole courses, unlike the 18 hole courses which were fully covered. The 9 hole conversion is a little more complex, as it involves par as well as course and slope ratings.
Have you worked these out yourself? Very impressive if you have.
		
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England Golf didn't send anything out for our 9-hole tee sets, so I created them for us. We still haven't got any 9-hole tees setup on the WHS Platform (dotgolf), but I believe that once we do the tables will be available to download/print from the Course Handicap Table report.


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## IanMcC (Dec 20, 2020)

wjemather said:



			England Golf didn't send anything out for our 9-hole tee sets, so I created them for us. We still haven't got any 9-hole tees setup on the WHS Platform (dotgolf), but I believe that once we do the tables will be available to download/print from the Course Handicap Table report.
		
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Brilliant! You are right. Downloadable from Reports.


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## jim8flog (Dec 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Our 9 hole slope and course ratings have just been added to WHS, which is great.

This has got me delving deeper into the world of 9 hole course handicap calculations, however, and I am utterly confused.

I know that I would receive 3 shots on our yellow front 9, as I set up a dummy comp on ClubV1. For the life of me I cannot get the maths to work out though.

Page 64 of the RoH book provides the formula for working out a 9-hole course handicap.

CH=HI/2 x [(9 hole slope/113) + (9 hole rating – 9 hole par)]

My Handicap index is 7.8. Yellow front 9 slope is 125. Yellow front 9 rating is 35.5. Yellow front 9 par is 37

So, substituting those values into the equation gives

7.8/2 x [(125/113) + (35.5 – 37)]

Or 3.9 x [1.1 + (-1.5)]

Or 3.9 x – 0.4

= -1.56

This answer is nowhere near 3. Can someone point out the error of my ways, please?
		
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Ignore page 64 of the RoH

It has been altered for some treason by The Guidance on the RoH Page 31

( assuming no one else has already bought this to your attention)


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## hel (Dec 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is it just Handicap Master affected as V1 seems ok, although I am having members trying to register but it failing on the verification number stage.
		
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We had the same problem in Scotland. Our club sec sent Scottish Golf all our relevant data and, somehow, eve y dob was 1 day and 4 years out. Our club sec was able to amend their info and put right but it was very time consuming.


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## rosecott (Dec 21, 2020)

WHS has finally got me to the brink after I survived the first few weeks of its introduction.

Please tell me I'm not going doolally.

Yesterday we ran another "counting" stableford competition. One of the players - 15 Course Handicap - blobbed our par 4 12th SI1 hole and duly entered 0 as his gross score when he submitted his score. I was a bit surprised by his stated Adjusted Score on his WHS scoring record. When I looked into the details of his recorded scores on WHS, his blob had been adjusted to 5, not the expected 7.

Can anyone explain this or has my thinking been completely wrong?


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## wjemather (Dec 21, 2020)

rosecott said:



			WHS has finally got me to the brink after I survived the first few weeks of its introduction.

Please tell me I'm not going doolally.

Yesterday we ran another "counting" stableford competition. One of the players - 15 Course Handicap - blobbed our par 4 12th SI1 hole and duly entered 0 as his gross score when he submitted his score. I was a bit surprised by his stated Adjusted Score on his WHS scoring record. When I looked into the details of his recorded scores on WHS, his blob had been adjusted to 5, not the expected 7.

Can anyone explain this or has my thinking been completely wrong?
		
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Sounds like it has been recorded as a "hole not started/played" (net par) rather than "hole not completed" (net double-bogey).

Different ISVs have different methods for recording these two occurrences. We use ClubV1/howdidido and even they vary slightly depending on which platform/module you are using to enter scores.


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## rosecott (Dec 21, 2020)

wjemather said:



			Sounds like it has been recorded as a "hole not started/played" (net par) rather than "hole not completed" (net double-bogey).

Different ISVs have different methods for recording these two occurrences. We use ClubV1/howdidido and even they vary slightly depending on which platform/module you are using to enter scores.
		
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Thanks, I realised just after posting that WHS had interpreted the score entry as Not Played rather than played but failed to score for stableford. Have asked for clarity from EG and the ISV.


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## wjemather (Dec 21, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Thanks, I realised just after posting that WHS had interpreted the score entry as Not Played rather than played but failed to score for stableford. Have asked for clarity from EG and the ISV.
		
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On the WHS Platform, it is "0" (zero) for hole not completed and "*" (asterisk) for hole not started.

In ClubV1, it's zero for not completed and either blank or zero with a DNP tickbox, depending on whether it's a casual or competition score. For player score entry systems, it's zero and the player then confirms whether the hole was played or not.

I expect other ISVs do it differently as well. There's just no consistency whatsoever.


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## rosecott (Dec 21, 2020)

wjemather said:



*On the WHS Platform, it is "0" (zero) for hole not completed and "*" (asterisk) for hole not started.*

In ClubV1, it's zero for not completed and either blank or zero with a DNP tickbox, depending on whether it's a casual or competition score. For player score entry systems, it's zero and the player then confirms whether the hole was played or not.

I expect other ISVs do it differently as well. There's just no consistency whatsoever.
		
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Thank you for that, it will make my task of changing scores a little easier. May I ask where you found out about the WHS distinctions on the platform between not completed and not played? I am forever pulling down documents to find answers - usually without success.


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## wjemather (Dec 21, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Thank you for that, it will make my task of changing scores a little easier. May I ask where you found out about the WHS distinctions on the platform between not completed and not played? I am forever pulling down documents to find answers - usually without success.
		
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Documentation is sorely lacking for all systems it seems, so I'm finding trial and error is the best/only way at the moment.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Thank you for that, it will make my task of changing scores a little easier. May I ask where you found out about the WHS distinctions on the platform between not completed and not played? I am forever pulling down documents to find answers - usually without success.
		
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Just watch this as I'm not sure it works correctly.

For casual rounds on V1 I entered a stableford score with a zero for a blobbed hole. When the score entry was completed and saved it was marked as an NR and didn't update WHS. Had to go back and enter NDB scores for it to work properly. Suspect it will use the same code for comps.


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## IanMcC (Dec 29, 2020)

Sent this to Wales Golf today regarding our 11 hole comps. Any thoughts from you guys? (Yes, I know the word qualifier isn't really correct anymore, but it gets the message across easier!) Maybe someone with a system other than Club can say how their software responds.

_I am writing for a little advice regarding our Friday Comps at Rhuddlan. We run an 11 hole Friday Mixed Stableford at Rhuddlan. 11 holes brings you back to the clubhouse. In the golf season, when the course is in an ‘acceptable’ condition, I wish to run these as handicap qualifiers. My quandry originally was whether to run the comps as 9 hole or 18 hole, but after experimentation it looks a little more complex than that. 

I ran test comps on ClubV1 using myself as the player, deleting the scores afterwards. There was no problem with the 9 hole comp. I scored holes 1 to 9 scoring 2 stableford points at each hole, and a differential of 9.0 was returned. My Playing Handicap is 9, so that all seemed in order. 

I tried setting up an 18 hole comp, inputting holes 1 to 11 as 2 points each, and having holes 12 to 18 as ‘DNP’. This did not return a score at all to WHS Dashboard. I then tried adding zeroes for holes 12 to 18. The score was now registered on Dashboard, but the differential was 21.0, as the system thought I played all of the holes. The only way I could get the differential to read sensibly was if I edited the score on WHS Dashboard by replacing the 0 with a * for each score on holes 12 to 18. The differential then showed 9.5. 

Examining the Rules of Handicapping book, page 37, an 11 hole comp should be scaled up to an 18 hole score. I am assuming that it is the ClubV1 software at fault at the moment, as they pretty much admitted that they have a long way to go with the scoring software when I sat in on a webinar of theirs. They have not yet set up dual tee comps correctly, for example. 

My question to you is, assuming ClubV1 manage to sort out all of their problems, would Wales Golf prefer me to  

a/ Run these comps as a 9 hole comp. The system will ignore the scores actually shot at holes 10 and 11, and scale up the score accordingly, as it does at the moment. 

b/ Run these comps as an 18 hole comp. The system should recognize the holes 1 to 11 actually scored, and scale up the remaining 7 holes accordingly. 

In both scenarios there is an element of scaling up, and I can see arguments for and against both methods. 

I reiterate, I can only run these as 18 hole comps if ClubV1 fix their software. If acceptable scores were in play right now at Rhuddlan I would either have to run a 9 hole comp, or manually intervene on Dashboard for every competitor adding stars instead of zeroes for holes 12 to 18. 

Kind regards, 
_


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## rulefan (Dec 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I had reported this to EG a short while ago.
		
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I have now had a reply from EG and it has been corrected in the new version of the handbook dated 17/12/20

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Rules-of-Handicapping-17-12-20.pdf


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 1, 2021)

Firstly, Happy New Year - despite the start it must be better than the last one!

Just for interest I have been tracking the number of General Play rounds played in December and any problems so we can help / educate our members to complete them correctly. The context for this is that our clubhouse has been closed in December so no PSI terminals available.

We had 80 rounds played and entered / corrected so they counted for WHS (this was more than I expected)
Approx 20-25% were entered with errors (I only started tracking this 2/3 of the way through of the month)
Main issue appeared to be with HDID usage (we are a Club V1 shop) - in particular the choice between qualifying / non-qualifying rounds and finger trouble selecting the wrong course (we have 6 options)
Most scores were entered on-line with a few physical cards submitted. The latter were not used in any PCC calculations made. We encouraged on-line entry due to Covid restrictions but didn't demand physical cards.
As there is no option to enter a marker on HDID for General Play cards we now have a decision to make about whether to demand physical cards to audit the on-line entry. This could become an onerous task.
I would be interested in other people's experiences as there is a general concensus in our club to continue with this situation until the season starts and then review whether we need to change our current stance on general play rounds. I have my reservations regarding auditability but equally don't want to spend even more time checking cards.


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## wjemather (Jan 1, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Firstly, Happy New Year - despite the start it must be better than the last one!

Just for interest I have been tracking the number of General Play rounds played in December and any problems so we can help / educate our members to complete them correctly. The context for this is that our clubhouse has been closed in December so no PSI terminals available.

We had 80 rounds played and entered / corrected so they counted for WHS (this was more than I expected)
Approx 20-25% were entered with errors (I only started tracking this 2/3 of the way through of the month)
Main issue appeared to be with HDID usage (we are a Club V1 shop) - in particular the choice between qualifying / non-qualifying rounds and finger trouble selecting the wrong course (we have 6 options)
Most scores were entered on-line with a few physical cards submitted. The latter were not used in any PCC calculations made. We encouraged on-line entry due to Covid restrictions but didn't demand physical cards.
As there is no option to enter a marker on HDID for General Play cards we now have a decision to make about whether to demand physical cards to audit the on-line entry. This could become an onerous task.
I would be interested in other people's experiences as there is a general concensus in our club to continue with this situation until the season starts and then review whether we need to change our current stance on general play rounds. I have my reservations regarding auditability but equally don't want to spend even more time checking cards.
		
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We have required verbal confirmation of all scores via the pro shop since restrictions came in, and will probably continue with that until we start accepting physical cards again.

It would be nice to trust everyone with technology, even though it's plainly not ready and missing basic functionality, but evidence suggests that too many people just can't use it correctly without even considering the tiny minority that would abuse it.


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Firstly, Happy New Year - despite the start it must be better than the last one!

Just for interest I have been tracking the number of General Play rounds played in December and any problems so we can help / educate our members to complete them correctly. The context for this is that our clubhouse has been closed in December so no PSI terminals available.

We had 80 rounds played and entered / corrected so they counted for WHS (this was more than I expected)
Approx 20-25% were entered with errors (I only started tracking this 2/3 of the way through of the month)
Main issue appeared to be with HDID usage (we are a Club V1 shop) - in particular the choice between qualifying / non-qualifying rounds and finger trouble selecting the wrong course (we have 6 options)
Most scores were entered on-line with a few physical cards submitted. The latter were not used in any PCC calculations made. We encouraged on-line entry due to Covid restrictions but didn't demand physical cards.
As there is no option to enter a marker on HDID for General Play cards we now have a decision to make about whether to demand physical cards to audit the on-line entry. This could become an onerous task.
I would be interested in other people's experiences as there is a general concensus in our club to continue with this situation until the season starts and then review whether we need to change our current stance on general play rounds. I have my reservations regarding auditability but equally don't want to spend even more time checking cards.
		
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I have been instructed by our county handicap representative that we must have physical cards for all cards that count towards handicap including casual rounds.


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## wjemather (Jan 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I have been instructed by our county handicap representative that we must have physical cards for all cards that count towards handicap including casual rounds.
		
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Strange that they would issue guidance that contradicts that given by EG and The R&A.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 1, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Firstly, Happy New Year - despite the start it must be better than the last one!

Just for interest I have been tracking the number of General Play rounds played in December and any problems so we can help / educate our members to complete them correctly. The context for this is that our clubhouse has been closed in December so no PSI terminals available.

We had 80 rounds played and entered / corrected so they counted for WHS (this was more than I expected)
Approx 20-25% were entered with errors (I only started tracking this 2/3 of the way through of the month)
Main issue appeared to be with HDID usage (we are a Club V1 shop) - in particular the choice between qualifying / non-qualifying rounds and finger trouble selecting the wrong course (we have 6 options)
Most scores were entered on-line with a few physical cards submitted. The latter were not used in any PCC calculations made. We encouraged on-line entry due to Covid restrictions but didn't demand physical cards.
As there is no option to enter a marker on HDID for General Play cards we now have a decision to make about whether to demand physical cards to audit the on-line entry. This could become an onerous task.
I would be interested in other people's experiences as there is a general concensus in our club to continue with this situation until the season starts and then review whether we need to change our current stance on general play rounds. I have my reservations regarding auditability but equally don't want to spend even more time checking cards.
		
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We have had several rounds issued, following problems:

1. A few have signed in and entered their score a few minutes later. No surprise, they were very good rounds.
2. Several have selected a non-qualifying round, so not counted to handicap. Ridiculous Club V1 gave that option.
3. A few entered scores when most of the greens were on temporary greens. I only found out as one member happened to text me. I'm not at club very often, so I'll never know how many winter greens are on on any given day. And, no one works at club who can control what is and is not submitted.
4. No idea if actual hole scores were entered correctly. And, I may only get up to club once every 2 or 3 weeks. Clearly less likely to get up now we are in Tier 4.

I've pretty much given up now on auditing scores, and I no longer have time to gather dozens of physical cards and filing away. So, I will just let members enter what they like, advise them when they ask, and deal with any errors / dodgy score entry when it is brought to my attention. 

Auditing of the WHS system is simply not sustainable at a club like mine, and I've decided I'll step down as handicap secretary this year (although I'd be surprised if anyone else will take the role on). I've joined a second club, run by members. They have the advantage that the person working in pro shop can deal with comp score entry and handicaps. Despite this, they are advising members NOT to submit scores for handicap, and comps are non-qualified. They do not yet trust the system.


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Strange that they would issue guidance that contradicts that given by EG and The R&A.
		
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After a long drawn out phone call he insists it is covered in the rules of golf and the WHS and will send me the necessary links at some time. I cannot at this moment be bothered to scour the said rules and further more he has instructed that a physical card must be completed although electronic entry is allowed.
He insits that the guidance doesn’t negate the need of a physical card.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			After a long drawn out phone call he insists it is covered in the rules of golf and the WHS and will send me the necessary links at some time. I cannot at this moment be bothered to scour the said rules and further more he has instructed that a physical card must be completed although electronic entry is allowed.
He insits that the guidance doesn’t negate the need of a physical card.
		
Click to expand...

No card required......


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## wjemather (Jan 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			After a long drawn out phone call he insists it is covered in the rules of golf and the WHS and will send me the necessary links at some time. I cannot at this moment be bothered to scour the said rules and further more he has instructed that a physical card must be completed although electronic entry is allowed.
He insits that the guidance doesn’t negate the need of a physical card.
		
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I suggest you send him this: EG Framework (page 7)


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I suggest you send him this: EG Framework (page 7)
		
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Doesnt preclude the use of a scorecard just says it doesn’t need to be returned and it is only an interim measure would be his argument and I can sort of see where he is coming from.


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## wjemather (Jan 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Doesnt preclude the use of a scorecard just says it doesn’t need to be returned and it is only an interim measure would be his argument and I can sort of see where he is coming from.
		
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It's up to the committee to decide what they want to do until restrictions are lifted. He shouldn't be advising otherwise. I'd ignore him. Here is the full CONGU guidance.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 1, 2021)

Our comp sec has just set up a comp on Club V1 and done the draw. The handicaps are completely messed up for every player.

I should be off 10 (both course and playing), but the draw says I'm off 14. Every players handicap shown on the draw is way higher than it should be. I've gone into the competition settings, to see if the Playing Handicap calculation of 95% had been set way higher than that by mistake, but I don't even see if that option is available. Any ideas?


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

wjemather said:



			It's up to the committee to decide what they want to do until restrictions are lifted. He shouldn't be advising otherwise. I'd ignore him. Here is the full CONGU guidance.
		
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Been trying to for the last 10 years.


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Our comp sec has just set up a comp on Club V1 and done the draw. The handicaps are completely messed up for every player.

I should be off 10 (both course and playing), but the draw says I'm off 14. Every players handicap shown on the draw is way higher than it should be. I've gone into the competition settings, to see if the Playing Handicap calculation of 95% had been set way higher than that by mistake, but I don't even see if that option is available. Any ideas?
		
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I reckon hes done some thing wrong in the set up, problem is now I think you’ll find it impossible to change with out deleting and starting again, just need to take a list of the draw and add after.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I reckon hes done some thing wrong in the set up, problem is now I think you’ll find it impossible to change with out deleting and starting again, just need to take a list of the draw and add after.
		
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All indexes are correct. I'm not sure how he could set it up to get playing handicaps wrong. It is a qualifier, so I thought club V1 applied 95% automatically?

Could it be a new year glitch?


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			All indexes are correct. I'm not sure how he could set it up to get playing handicaps wrong. It is a qualifier, so I thought club V1 applied 95% automatically?

Could it be a new year glitch?
		
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Your correct in your assumption that it’s automatic if you set it up as a Q


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## wjemather (Jan 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			All indexes are correct. I'm not sure how he could set it up to get playing handicaps wrong. It is a qualifier, so I thought club V1 applied 95% automatically?

Could it be a new year glitch?
		
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Only thing I can think of (legitimately) is that he's setup multiple tees & Club Systems have finally fixed the playing handicap calculations for that?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 1, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Only thing I can think of (legitimately) is that he's setup multiple tees & Club Systems have finally fixed the playing handicap calculations for that?
		
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That is it


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## Swango1980 (Jan 1, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Only thing I can think of (legitimately) is that he's setup multiple tees & Club Systems have finally fixed the playing handicap calculations for that?
		
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Actually, not sure.

It is open to both men and women, men off yellow and women off red. Red CR is about 4 higher than men cr, so not sure why men playing handicaps so high. No women in field


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			All indexes are correct. I'm not sure how he could set it up to get playing handicaps wrong. It is a qualifier, so I thought club V1 applied 95% automatically?

Could it be a new year glitch?
		
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Just set up one to see if it’s a clutch and it came out fine.


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Actually, not sure.

It is open to both men and women, men off yellow and women off red. Red CR is about 4 higher than men cr, so not sure why men playing handicaps so high. No women in field
		
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It wouldn’t matter if no women are in the field, the system has added the difference as if women are playing. All men’s additions should be the same.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It wouldn’t matter if no women are in the field, the system has added the difference as if women are playing. All men’s additions should be the same.
		
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But why is it adding about 3 or 4 shots to men? Surely it would only add to women as their CR is 3 or 4 higher than men?


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## Old Skier (Jan 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			But why is it adding about 3 or 4 shots to men? Surely it would only add to women as their CR is 3 or 4 higher than men?
		
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Your right, just set one up out of interest, has he selected the correct courses.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Your right, just set one up out of interest, has he selected the correct courses.
		
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He has, but I'll get him to try


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## IanMcC (Jan 2, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Only thing I can think of (legitimately) is that he's setup multiple tees & Club Systems have finally fixed the playing handicap calculations for that?
		
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Nope. Not that. CSI still not adjusting for dual tee comps.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

I have just done tests on this on V1 and as far as I can see mixed comps set up correctly giving ladies 2 extra shots which is the difference between the two courses CRs.


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## IanMcC (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I have just done tests on this on V1 and as far as I can see mixed comps set up correctly giving ladies 2 extra shots which is the difference between the two courses CRs.
		
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I tested this morning and no joy. I will try again. Did you set yours up as a qualifier or not?


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I tested this morning and no joy. I will try again. Did you set yours up as a qualifier or not?
		
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Qualifier and checked on both sets of men’s tees as one is 1 different and other is 2 and both adjustments were made.


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## rulefan (Jan 2, 2021)

Does/did V1 require you to do a software update?


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## IanMcC (Jan 2, 2021)

OK, maybe I am going a bit mad, but the adjustment seems inverted to me.

Stableford comp set up. Men yellows and ladies red.

To play to handicap = 36 - (CR - par)
Men 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 36.7, equating to 37
Ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36.2, equating to 36

So the ladies should get 1 shot, I feel. 
If I set up this comp the men get a shot.

Stableford comp set up. Men whites and ladies red.

Men 36 - (72.2 - 70) = 33.8, equating to 34
ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 35.8, equating to 36.

So here, the men should get 2 shots.
Setting up this comp the ladies get 2 shots!!!

What am I doing wrong, or has lockdown just made me insane?


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Does/did V1 require you to do a software update?
		
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No, as the main server is where everything comes from.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			OK, maybe I am going a bit mad, but the adjustment seems inverted to me.

Stableford comp set up. Men yellows and ladies red.

To play to handicap = 36 - (CR - par)
Men 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 36.7, equating to 37
Ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36.2, equating to 36

So the ladies should get 1 shot, I feel.
If I set up this comp the men get a shot.

Stableford comp set up. Men whites and ladies red.

Men 36 - (72.2 - 70) = 33.8, equating to 34
ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 35.8, equating to 36.

So here, the men should get 2 shots.
Setting up this comp the ladies get 2 shots!!!

What am I doing wrong, or has lockdown just made me insane?
		
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Where the CR is greater, they are the ones that get the equivalent shot difference is the way I always understood it.

First example men get a shot
Second example ladies get 2 shots.

So the set up is as I understand it correct.


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## IanMcC (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Where the CR is greater, they are the ones that get the equivalent shot difference is the way I always understood it.

First example men get a shot
Second example ladies get 2 shots.

So the set up is as I understand it correct.
		
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Im not so sure it is as easy as that.
Look at Appendix I of the guidance book. Page 38 in particular:


_Stroke Play Competitions: Stableford & Par/Bogey_

_As the format is singles stroke play, the stroke allowance is 95% of the Course Handicap. In_

_addition, as both Stableford and Par/Bogey formats are scored against the Par of the course,_

_rather than the Course Rating, the Playing Handicap calculation includes an adjustment to_

_reflect the difference to ‘play to handicap’ between the mixed/multi-tee courses. (Rule 6.2b_

_(ii))._

_Number of points to ‘play to handicap’ for a given set of tees = 36 – (CR - Par):_

_For Norman this is 36 – (67.2 – 71) = 39.8 rounded to 40_

_For Norma this is 36 – (72.0 - 71) = 35.0 rounded to 35_

_The players playing to the lower points target receive the difference in the number of points._

_So Norma receives 5 additional strokes on her Playing Handicap, for competition purposes._

I used the above example for Rhuddlan, substituting the values

Yellows v Reds

For a man 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 37
For a lady 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36

So the ladies should get a shot, as their 'points target' is lower. I am convinced CSI have got this wrong.

For the record, here are our course ratings and pars:

Gents Yellow: 71.3 and 72
Gents White: 72.2 and 70

Ladies red: 73.8 and 74


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Im not so sure it is as easy as that.
Look at Appendix I of the guidance book. Page 38 in particular:

_The following mixed/multi-tees will be used in this section:_

_CR Slope PAR_

_Men 67.2 113 71_

_Women 72.0 129 71_

_P a g e | 38_

_Stroke Play Competitions: Stableford & Par/Bogey_

_As the format is singles stroke play, the stroke allowance is 95% of the Course Handicap. In_

_addition, as both Stableford and Par/Bogey formats are scored against the Par of the course,_

_rather than the Course Rating, the Playing Handicap calculation includes an adjustment to_

_reflect the difference to ‘play to handicap’ between the mixed/multi-tee courses. (Rule 6.2b_

_(ii))._

_Number of points to ‘play to handicap’ for a given set of tees = 36 – (CR - Par):_

_For Norman this is 36 – (67.2 – 71) = 39.8 rounded to 40_

_For Norma this is 36 – (72.0 - 71) = 35.0 rounded to 35_

_The players playing to the lower points target receive the difference in the number of points._

_So Norma receives 5 additional strokes on her Playing Handicap, for competition purposes._

I used the above example for Rhuddlan, substituting the values

Yellows v Reds

For a man 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 37
For a lady 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36

So the ladies should get a shot, as their 'points target' is lower. I am convinced CSI have got this wrong.
		
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Im not into the figures like some but even in the old system based on SSS it was that the difference was based on giving the higher SSS the number of shot difference with the lower SSS. I may obviously be wrong but based on how it used to work it seems fine.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I have just done tests on this on V1 and as far as I can see mixed comps set up correctly giving ladies 2 extra shots which is the difference between the two courses CRs.
		
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He did a test today, and playing handicaps are OK when set up as men only competition, but wrong when set as mixed. It worked fine as a mixed before the new year, this is the first time it has messed up, so assuming Club V1 changed something


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## IanMcC (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not into the figures like some but even in the old system based on SSS it was that the difference was based on giving the higher SSS the number of shot difference with the lower SSS. I may obviously be wrong but based on how it used to work it seems fine.
		
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Indeed. 

Sticking to the yellow v reds in CONGU then.

Yellow for men was par 72, SSS 71
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its easier for the men as the SSS is one less than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get one shot when playing yellows.

If we look at whites v reds

White for men was par 70, SSS 72
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its now easier for the ladies, as the mens SSS is 2 greater than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get 2 shots.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			He did a test today, and playing handicaps are OK when set up as men only competition, but wrong when set as mixed. It worked fine as a mixed before the new year, this is the first time it has messed up, so assuming Club V1 changed something
		
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Strange, all I can say is I did another test set up today and on my understanding it worked fine.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Indeed.

Sticking to the yellow v reds in CONGU then.

Yellow for men was par 72, SSS 71
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its easier for the men as the SSS is one less than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get one shot when playing yellows.

If we look at whites v reds

White for men was par 70, SSS 72
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its now easier for the ladies, as the mens SSS is 2 greater than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get 2 shots.
		
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Fried my brain, not sure par has anything to do with it as it’s to do with course difficulty which is measured by the SSS or now the CR?


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## IanMcC (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Fried my brain, not sure par has anything to do with it as it’s to do with course difficulty which is measured by the SSS or now the CR?
		
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Post #752 is straight from the Guidance book, and it explains how par is taken into account for a stableford comp. Par is immaterial in a Medal comp, agreed.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Post #752 is straight from the Guidance book, and it explains how par is taken into account for a stableford comp. Par is immaterial in a Medal comp, agreed.
		
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I’ll have a go setting up a stableford one later.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Post #752 is straight from the Guidance book, and it explains how par is taken into account for a stableford comp. Par is immaterial in a Medal comp, agreed.
		
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Did a side by side and see where you coming from. This time I got an extra shot added to my playing handicap playing stableford where as the ladies got the shots based on medal so V1 are obviously using different algorithm, whether they are right or wrong is above my ability, I’ll try and find out from them Monday.


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## IanMcC (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Did a side by side and see where you coming from. This time I got an extra shot added to my playing handicap playing stableford where as the ladies got the shots based on medal so V1 are obviously using different algorithm, whether they are right or wrong is above my ability, I’ll try and find out from them Monday.
		
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Thanks for that. No definitive answer as yet, then. Maybe its like a crossword puzzle. I cant see any other solution rather than CSI have it wrong, but maybe I am blinded by my own thoughts. I too will pester them on Monday, unless one of the gurus comes up with a definitive explanation here first.


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## IanMcC (Jan 3, 2021)

OK, a little more evidence that Club Systems have got it wrong with 2 tee stableford comps.
England Golf have a downloadable calculator to work out allowances under the old CONGU system. I have attached a screenshot of Rhuddlan white tees against red tees. Clearly, in a medal comp the Ladies get 2 shots, but in a Stableford comp the Gents get 2 shots. (I know CONGU is no more, but it is the same principle.)
I set up a mixed stableford comp on ClubV1. To keep it simple, I made it a non qualifier to stop the 95% adjustment, leaving the handicap fraction at 1/1. I used myself and my wife as players. My Index is 7.8, so I receive 9 shots on the whites before adjustment. Karen's is 25.7, so she receives 29 shots on the reds before adjustment.
As can be seen from the screenshots, I still have 9 shots but Karen has 31 shots. The system has added 2 shots to the Ladies score instead of the Mens. They have not used the formula spelled out on page 37 of the guidance notes.
I tried a medal test comp, and it worked OK, allocating the same shots, which this time is correct.
I am going to write to CSI today, and try and speak to someone tomorrow.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			OK, a little more evidence that Club Systems have got it wrong with 2 tee stableford comps.
England Golf have a downloadable calculator to work out allowances under the old CONGU system. I have attached a screenshot of Rhuddlan white tees against red tees. Clearly, in a medal comp the Ladies get 2 shots, but in a Stableford comp the Gents get 2 shots. (I know CONGU is no more, but it is the same principle.)
I set up a mixed stableford comp on ClubV1. To keep it simple, I made it a non qualifier to stop the 95% adjustment, leaving the handicap fraction at 1/1. I used myself and my wife as players. My Index is 7.8, so I receive 9 shots on the whites before adjustment. Karen's is 25.7, so she receives 29 shots on the reds before adjustment.
As can be seen from the screenshots, I still have 9 shots but Karen has 31 shots. The system has added 2 shots to the Ladies score instead of the Mens. They have not used the formula spelled out on page 37 of the guidance notes.
I tried a medal test comp, and it worked OK, allocating the same shots, which this time is correct.
I am going to write to CSI today, and try and speak to someone tomorrow.
		
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Appreciate it’s a long shot and look forward to the answer you may get from Club Systems but have you checked that the correct info is set up in the courses set up area of V1.


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## IanMcC (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Appreciate it’s a long shot and look forward to the answer you may get from Club Systems but have you checked that the correct info is set up in the courses set up area of V1.
		
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Yes, checked all that initially.
I think the clincher is if a comparison is made between red/white and red/yellow in a test comp. Our white is the harder course, so you would expect the men to get more shots on the white course against the ladies. The way it is set up at the moment on ClubV1, playing whites the ladies get 2 shots, and playing yellows the men get 1 shot! It should be vice versa.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 3, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, checked all that initially.
I think the clincher is if a comparison is made between red/white and red/yellow in a test comp. Our white is the harder course, so you would expect the men to get more shots on the white course against the ladies. The way it is set up at the moment on ClubV1, playing whites the ladies get 2 shots, and playing yellows the men get 1 shot! It should be vice versa.
		
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I think something like that was happening in our comp. Ladies should have got the extra shots, but instead men were getting the shots on their Playing Handicap.


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## wjemather (Jan 3, 2021)

In case you haven't seen it, here is CONGU's Mixed Tee Calculator, which quickly confirms what the adjustments should be.


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## IanMcC (Jan 3, 2021)

wjemather said:



			In case you haven't seen it, here is CONGU's Mixed Tee Calculator, which quickly confirms what the adjustments should be.
		
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Thanks for this. This is a more up to date calculator than the one I used earlier. It confirms my suspicion that ClubV1 have the incorrect set up for Stableford 2 tee comps.


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## IanMcC (Jan 4, 2021)

Was going to phone CSI this morning, but got this email, so at least they are aware of the problem. 

_Hi Ian,

Thank you for your email.

I will now need to escalate this issue to our 2nd Line Team to review further – once they have looked into this we will come back to you directly on the contact details you have provided with an update. Unfortunately, I cannot give a specific timeframe on when this will be. You should receive a confirmation with the Support Ticket ID shortly.

*Kind Regards,
Online Support*_
*(Drew)*


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Just seen further release notes from Club Systems 

bV1 Update 30/12/2020 - Release Notes
Created: 04/01/2021
We released an update to ClubV1, ClubV1 PSi, and HowDoiPay on the evening of 30/12/2020, please read below for full details of changes included in this update.
ClubV1 Competitions - When entering a score onto an optional course card we have fixed an issue with it showing as being entered on the default card Competitions - Fixed an issue with an incorrect handicap allowance being applied to single competitions which have additional courses or are mixed gender Competitions - We have updated Booking > Scorecard Labels to also show the players calculated course handicap Competitions - We have updated the Score Card Print settings in ClubV1 to have a new Course Handicap option which will then print on Competition > Sign In > Print All/Individual Score Card Competitions - When closing a competition, we have now removed the text regarding scores being submitted to CDH on closing as this is now done as soon as the score is entered Competitions - In the Start Sheet Print/Export we have renamed the include handicap option to be 'Include Handicap Index' Competitions - We have renamed the Handicap Limit to be called Playing Handicap Limit however in the next release we will be providing an option to set this to either Playing or Index Competitions - We have renamed the Division Limit to be called Playing Division Limit however in the next release we will be providing an option to set this to either Playing, Index or Course Competitions - When selecting an entered score card, we now also show the players course handicap Casual Rounds - When selecting an entered score card, we now also show the players course handicap Casual Rounds - On a person record we have now added the option to edit a casual round Casual Rounds - Fixed an issue with casual rounds not submitting to CDH when having a DNP or Played But Didn't Score Casual Rounds - We now display the signature again for the round in ClubV1 > Casual Rounds Casual Rounds - When selecting an entered casual round from the person record, we now display the format correctly, previously it would always default to strokeplay Eclectics - Updated the first-round handicap to be handicap index rather than playing Eclectics - Updated the score value for ordering from index to be the calculated fractional playing handicap Reports - When closing a competition, we have added a new report called the 'CDH Submission Review'. The report will show the total 'Number of Successful Submissions' and the total 'Number of Unsuccessful Submissions'. We will then display a 3 columned table of 'Player', 'CDH ID' and 'Reason' for the unsuccessful submissions, an example reason might be 'No CDH ID' Reports - We have now reinstated the Course Analysis report into ClubV1 and updated the report with the WHS rules Reports - We have now reinstated the Competition Summary report into ClubV1 and updated the report with the WHS rules Reports - We have now reinstated the Supplementary Scores report into ClubV1 but renamed to be the Casual Rounds report Reports - When creating a list, we have removed the reference to exact handicap on short headers Courses - Updated the cdh courses toast notification to only show for 9 or 18 hole courses which haven't been linked Courses - When deleting a course, we now also validate if there are any hidden course cards associated with that course prior to deleting Tee Sheet - Removed the 'Add Function' option for Entry level users Functions - In EPOS > Functions we have added a new option for 'Upcoming' which will display future function events and allow the user to create an invoice in advance Person - Fixed an error 500 when selecting Online Services Person - Fixed an issue with HowDidiDo/Member Hub accounts incorrectly showing as unknown in Online Services PSI Label Printing - We have updated the dialog box to open for 5 seconds rather than 2 seconds and also to be slightly larger when asking you to 'Allow this site to open the csi-cv1 link?' HowDoiPay Details - Updated the address confirmation to have a 'Confirm' button
Hide Details

I see the new release CLAIMS the mixed tee issu has now been sorted. Any mathematical wizards able to do a check.


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## rulefan (Jan 4, 2021)

I wonder why they are using the term '_Casual Rounds_' rather the the official '_General play_'


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## IanMcC (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Just seen further release notes from Club Systems
I see the new release CLAIMS the mixed tee issue has now been sorted. Any mathematical wizards able to do a check.
		
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Nope. Everything I have written about over the weekend is still broken. Its worse than it was now, of course. Before I just had to alter the score for one set of tees. Now all scores are wrong as both are altered wrongly.
I assume this note was about the changes made on 30/12/20 only.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Nope. Everything I have written about over the weekend is still broken. Its worse than it was now, of course. Before I just had to alter the score for one set of tees. Now all scores are wrong as both are altered wrongly.
I assume this note was about the changes made on 30/12/20 only.
		
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Your right, only just picked them up.


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## wjemather (Jan 4, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Nope. Everything I have written about over the weekend is still broken. Its worse than it was now, of course. Before I just had to alter the score for one set of tees. Now all scores are wrong as both are altered wrongly.
I assume this note was about the changes made on 30/12/20 only.
		
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I assume it is still just Stableford & Par/Bogey that is wrong for mixed tee comps, as it was correct for medal play yesterday?


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## IanMcC (Jan 4, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I assume it is still just Stableford & Par/Bogey that is wrong for mixed tee comps, as it was correct for medal play yesterday?
		
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Yes. Medal play works fine.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 13, 2021)

Using Club V1, has anyone discovered with a way of dealing with qualification criteria in terms of Acceptable Rounds played in previous year?

Previously, players simply had "c" status or not. If they didn't, and based on the setting in Club V1, they could still enter comp and score went to their handicap record, but they finished bottom of leaderboard regardless of score.

Under WHS, assuming a comp sec wants to set similar criteria, is is possible or easy? Or, does the comp sec need to trawl through every single players Score History and then completely remove them from competition. Afterwards, enter their score separately as General Play? If this is the case, would they need direct access to WHS Portal rather than just Club V1?


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Using Club V1, has anyone discovered with a way of dealing with qualification criteria in terms of Acceptable Rounds played in previous year?

Previously, players simply had "c" status or not. If they didn't, and based on the setting in Club V1, they could still enter comp and score went to their handicap record, but they finished bottom of leaderboard regardless of score.

Under WHS, assuming a comp sec wants to set similar criteria, is is possible or easy? Or, does the comp sec need to trawl through every single players Score History and then completely remove them from competition. Afterwards, enter their score separately as General Play? If this is the case, would they need direct access to WHS Portal rather than just Club V1?
		
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Been discussing this for new comps terms and conditions. 
A suggestion is to ensure you state the criteria on the entry sheet/on line info clearly and then just check the winners. Simplistic but saves a lot of effort.


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## IanMcC (Jan 13, 2021)

We have it set in our Players Charter the same as CONGU. 3 qualifying rounds in the last 12 months. I really don't know if this is enough or not. I have asked my Committee to comment, and await replies. My own thoughts are that 5 or 6 rounds in the last 12 months would be more representative, but I wouldn't want to change our Charter again for a minor alteration. Before the season starts I will email all members with the terms.


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## rulefan (Jan 14, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			We have it set in our Players Charter the same as CONGU. 3 qualifying rounds in the last 12 months. I really don't know if this is enough or not. I have asked my Committee to comment, and await replies. My own thoughts are that 5 or 6 rounds in the last 12 months would be more representative, but I wouldn't want to change our Charter again for a minor alteration. Before the season starts I will email all members with the terms.
		
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Does that mean they can't play or simply can't win a prize?


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## IanMcC (Jan 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Does that mean they can't play or simply can't win a prize?
		
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Anyone can play, and win vouchers, but only c status members can win a board comp.


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## rulefan (Jan 14, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Anyone can play, and win vouchers, but only c status members can win a board comp.
		
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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 14, 2021)

Is there any way to determin which players are subject to the hard or soft cap without going through each individual score?

The reporting on Club V1 doesn't offer the anchor point as a selectable field and I can't see anything in the EG Platform that will help.

Believe it or not we have a player who has already hit the soft cap.


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## 2blue (Jan 14, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			We have it set in our Players Charter the same as CONGU. 3 qualifying rounds in the last 12 months. I really don't know if this is enough or not. I have asked my Committee to comment, and await replies. My own thoughts are that* 5 or 6 rounds in the last 12 months* would be more representative, but I wouldn't want to change our Charter again for a minor alteration. Before the season starts I will email all members with the terms.
		
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Yeah with so many new members we've moved to 5 Club Comps in the last 12 months (not casual rounds) for Board Comps.


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## IanMcC (Jan 15, 2021)

2blue said:



			Yeah with so many new members we've moved to 5 Club Comps in the last 12 months (not casual rounds) for Board Comps.
		
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In an ideal world I would set it at 5 rounds. One of my committee members also said 5. We set the Charter saying same as CONGU though, 3 rounds in last 12 months, so we are going to keep it like that for 2021, and review it in the Autumn. I wouldn't like to make a distinction between club comps and casual rounds. They all have the same effect on ones Index, but I know where you are coming from.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 15, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			In an ideal world I would set it at 5 rounds. One of my committee members also said 5. We set the Charter saying same as CONGU though, 3 rounds in last 12 months, so we are going to keep it like that for 2021, and review it in the Autumn. I wouldn't like to make a distinction between club comps and casual rounds. They all have the same effect on ones Index, but I know where you are coming from.
		
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Are you not in danger of creating a two tier handicap structure within the club, 'regular' competition golfer and 'social or non competition'  golfers.

WHS is promoted as making the game more inclusive and accessible is it not?


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## 2blue (Jan 15, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Are you not in danger of creating a two tier handicap structure within the club, 'regular' competition golfer and *'social or non competition'  golfers.*

WHS is promoted as making the game more inclusive and accessible is it not?
		
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They could still have a H/cap from casual rounds, no problem. Not easy to see why they need one if not play in competitions?


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## IanMcC (Jan 15, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Are you not in danger of creating a two tier handicap structure within the club, 'regular' competition golfer and 'social or non competition'  golfers.

WHS is promoted as making the game more inclusive and accessible is it not?
		
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I've read your post 3 or 4 times, and can only assume you meant to speak to 2blue, who does take the policy of differentiating between casual and comp rounds. As a discussion point, did you disagree with the CONGU 3 rounds before c status was gained? That also was a 2 tier scheme under your guidance.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 15, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I've read your post 3 or 4 times, and can only assume you meant to speak to 2blue, who does take the policy of differentiating between casual and comp rounds. As a discussion point, did you disagree with the CONGU 3 rounds before c status was gained? That also was a 2 tier scheme under your guidance.
		
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Yes it would help if I was bright enough to be able to multi quote so apologies.

I think the congu 3 rounds was well intentioned but also flawed as it lead to golfers abandoning competition play altogether as their handicaps don't increase quick enough as ageing causes  a decline in their standard of golf.

If I use my dad as an example he stopped playing comps at around age 80 as he could not play to his high teens handicap. Eventually he got given a 2 or 3 shot increase but still not anywhere near enough.

He stopped playing for a couple of years as he didn't enjoy playing seniors comps with 'young men' who smashed it 80 yards past him and who he was giving loads of shots to. He rejoined this summer and under the WHS he is going to have a handicap that is more realistic to his ability.

In my reply to 2Blue my concern is their seems to be a concern at his club over Board Comps being won by golfers who may have handicaps gained through social golf only. Surely it doesn't matter now, a handicap is a handicap?

I now there is scope for clubs to make restrictions for entry to comps but under WHS is is not more aimed at creating seperate divisions/comps for the higher handicap golfer?

Personally I just rock up and play as well as I can and try to play my best golf. We don't have board comps apart from Club Champs and winning a comp will get you £30 max, (2 divisions and overall comp winner) so no ego driven need to see name on a wall.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 15, 2021)

2blue said:



			They could still have a H/cap from casual rounds, no problem. Not easy to see why they need one if not play in competitions?
		
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Gives them an opportunity to play if they wish.


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## 2blue (Jan 15, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Yes it would help if I was bright enough to be able to multi quote so apologies.

I think the congu 3 rounds was well intentioned but also flawed as it lead to golfers abandoning competition play altogether as their handicaps don't increase quick enough as ageing causes  a decline in their standard of golf.

If I use my dad as an example he stopped playing comps at around age 80 as he could not play to his high teens handicap. Eventually he got given a 2 or 3 shot increase but still not anywhere near enough.

He stopped playing for a couple of years as he didn't enjoy playing seniors comps with 'young men' who smashed it 80 yards past him and who he was giving loads of shots to. He rejoined this summer and under the WHS he is going to have a handicap that is more realistic to his ability.

In my reply to 2Blue my concern is their seems to be a* concern at his club over Board Comps being won by golfers who may have handicaps gained through social golf only*. Surely it doesn't matter now, a handicap is a handicap?

I now there is scope for clubs to make restrictions for entry to comps but under WHS is is not more aimed at creating seperate divisions/comps for the higher handicap golfer?

Personally I just rock up and play as well as I can and try to play my best golf. We don't have board comps apart from Club Champs and winning a comp will get you £30 max, (2 divisions and overall comp winner) so no ego driven need to see name on a wall.
		
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It's more to protect the Honours Boards from new members just getting new h/caps & burgling the Boards, as has happened in the past. Requiring 5 Comps at least gives a possible opportunity to monitor them. We had 100 new members last year, many with new H/caps. It may not work but members know that at least we are trying.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 16, 2021)

2blue said:



			It's more to protect the Honours Boards from new members just getting new h/caps & burgling the Boards, as has happened in the past. Requiring 5 Comps at least gives a possible opportunity to monitor them. We had 100 new members last year, many with new H/caps. It may not work but members know that at least we are trying.
		
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I understand what you are trying to do but lets be honest improving golfers have always had a good chance to win comps until they find their natural level and golf becomes harder.

Take away the honours boards and there will be less moaning from members when someone has a good round and wins a comp.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 16, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I understand what you are trying to do but lets be honest improving golfers have always had a good chance to win comps until they find their natural level and golf becomes harder.

Take away the honours boards and there will be less moaning from members when someone has a good round and wins a comp.
		
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Take away the honours boards, and there may be more moaning from members that there are a lack of prestigious competitions. 

If there is an entry limit to honour board competitions, do new members honestly complain they do not play? I doubt it. Ad a new member, I would just try and spend my first stint at a club trying to get accustomed to new club and members. As long as I can still play in events for handicapping purposes, it should take no effort or time to play in 5 comps. If I was a long term member but without the 5 comps under my belt, then I still wouldn't feel.i have a right to complain when many more members have shown more commitment and support to comps.

I do completely understand trying to protect prestigious comps from those with handicaps that are too high. Since lockdown in march, we have had over 100 new members, many who.have handed in 3 cards for handicap. It is clear many of these have improved significantly since their first handicap, a couple of guys dropping around 5-10 shots in first fee rounds since getting handicap. One guy got a handicap in the 30's and entered the friendly winter doubles. Won his matches 7&6, 8&7 and 7&5, at least 2 of those matches against golfers with good records over the years. Due to Covid, however, this guy has had little opportunity to play in any "qualifying" comps. Would it be right if he got his name on the honours board after it was one of his first official comps and he scored 50+ points? I reckon that would put off many members in playing who simply feel they have no chance once they have an established handicap. Whereas, not permitting new player to win until he has 5 5 comps will unlike deter him. He is clearly playing well, motivated, and will continue to submit rounds until he gets 5. 

The only interesting point is, why 5 rounds? Some clubs will stick with 3, some might say 5 or any other arbritary number. Some might have 0. Is this something that was chosen fairly randomly based on a few peoples opinion, or was it a vote by all members who play comps? No issue with it, but something our club will need to sort out soon.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Take away the honours boards, and there may be more moaning from members that there are a lack of prestigious competitions.

If there is an entry limit to honour board competitions, do new members honestly complain they do not play? I doubt it. Ad a new member, I would just try and spend my first stint at a club trying to get accustomed to new club and members. As long as I can still play in events for handicapping purposes, it should take no effort or time to play in 5 comps. If I was a long term member but without the 5 comps under my belt, then I still wouldn't feel.i have a right to complain when many more members have shown more commitment and support to comps.

I do completely understand trying to protect prestigious comps from those with handicaps that are too high. Since lockdown in march, we have had over 100 new members, many who.have handed in 3 cards for handicap. It is clear many of these have improved significantly since their first handicap, a couple of guys dropping around 5-10 shots in first fee rounds since getting handicap. One guy got a handicap in the 30's and entered the friendly winter doubles. Won his matches 7&6, 8&7 and 7&5, at least 2 of those matches against golfers with good records over the years. Due to Covid, however, this guy has had little opportunity to play in any "qualifying" comps. Would it be right if he got his name on the honours board after it was one of his first official comps and he scored 50+ points? I reckon that would put off many members in playing who simply feel they have no chance once they have an established handicap. Whereas, not permitting new player to win until he has 5 5 comps will unlike deter him. He is clearly playing well, motivated, and will continue to submit rounds until he gets 5.

The only interesting point is, why 5 rounds? Some clubs will stick with 3, some might say 5 or any other arbritary number. Some might have 0. Is this something that was chosen fairly randomly based on a few peoples opinion, or was it a vote by all members who play comps? No issue with it, but something our club will need to sort out soon.
		
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I would be asking new members to put in as many cards as possible from social play to ensure their handicap reflects improvement in their game.

What about the long standing mid handicap member who suddenly decides to get lessons, practice his butt off and suddenly improves 6 or 7 shots a round, no different to the improving new member scenario.



We need to remember that at some stage we were all new golfers and no doubt a lot of us on this forum have won a comp or two before we found our natural level and hit the plateau.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 16, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I would be asking new members to put in as many cards as possible from social play to ensure their handicap reflects improvement in their game.

What about the long standing mid handicap member who suddenly decides to get lessons, practice his butt off and suddenly improves 6 or 7 shots a round, no different to the improving new member scenario.



We need to remember that at some stage we were all new golfers and no doubt a lot of us on this forum have won a comp or two before we found our natural level and hit the plateau.
		
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That is a very different scenario. You have a long standing member who has put in a lot of effort and work. If he wins, it is well deserved.

A new member, especially new golfer, need put in no effort at all. Many will naturally improve significantly as they get used to the game, and used to the course. The 2 are very very different.


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## nickjdavis (Jan 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			. Whereas, not permitting new player to win until he has 5 5 comps will unlike deter him. He is clearly playing well, motivated, and will continue to submit rounds until he gets 5.

The only interesting point is, why 5 rounds? Some clubs will stick with 3, some might say 5 or any other arbitrary number. Some might have 0. Is this something that was chosen fairly randomly based on a few peoples opinion, or was it a vote by all members who play comps? No issue with it, but something our club will need to sort out soon.
		
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We have a rule whereby members getting a handicap for the first time are unable to win any of the first three comps they enter. They are told this at the time of joining.

Three times this year I had to ring new members who'd joined in March, then found they couldn't play, then when general restrictions were lifted went out and practised like hell, then when we restarted comps in mid July swept the board in their first comp!!!Each of the three players I spoke to were quite happy with the rule and were simply delighted that they'd played well and were getting their handicaps down quickly.

Its been 3 comps ever since I've been a member (20yrs) so not sure what the decision making process to come up with the number was, but I guess that if a player puts in 3 rounds for his handicap, then another 3 rounds would seem a reasonable amount of time to see some sort of "playing record" develop, so you could see if there was an issue with the initially allocated handicap. 

Yes a player could easily "play conservatively" in those first three rounds and then go out and "try" but, despite all you read about banditry, its my experience that the vast majority of golfers don't actually have that "cheating" mentality within the confines of their club golf....however it does seem that you get more of a tendency to cheat in with manipulated handicaps in open events with lucrative prize funds....perhaps cheating strangers is psychologically more palatable to such people?


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## Rocco (Jan 19, 2021)

Since the introduction of Handicap Index and Course Handicap a player could get confused and enter a handicap which is lower than entitled e.g. enters 22 on card when entitled to 23. 
The players score is then entered in to Club V1 but it gives a  result based on 23 handicap . however his score should be based on what he enters on card if lower i.e 22 (obviously D.Q if player puts higher handicap than entitled to). 
Previously there was a facility on Club V1 to adjust a players handicap prior to his score being input..
Club support advise that since the switchover to WHS that it is no longer a feature on the system...this is unsatisfactory ,do they actually understand the Rules of Golf/handicapping. What is the correct procedure ?


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2021)

Rocco said:



			Since the introduction of Handicap Index and Course Handicap a player could get confused and enter a handicap which is lower than entitled e.g. enters 22 on card when entitled to 23.
The players score is then entered in to Club V1 but it gives a  result based on 23 handicap . however his score should be based on what he enters on card if lower i.e 22 (obviously D.Q if player puts higher handicap than entitled to).
Previously there was a facility on Club V1 to adjust a players handicap prior to his score being input..
Club support advise that since the switchover to WHS that it is no longer a feature on the system...this is unsatisfactory ,do they actually understand the Rules of Golf/handicapping. What is the correct procedure ?
		
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As a V1 user I’m interested in this, was a reason given for the withdrawal of the procedure?


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## Rocco (Jan 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As a V1 user I’m interested in this, was a reason given for the withdrawal of the procedure?
		
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_The reply from CSI Care Support :  Unfortunately since the switchover to WHS ,this is no longer a feature on the system to adjust handicaps in Club V1._

As a user of Club V1 you will be well used to not getting a satisfactory answer to your specific query , a further message has been sent to them requesting what to do for a lower handicap on card..  *reply to that still awaited* ...hence posting on here and HDID forum to get some feedback.....will post if anything further received from Support.


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## rulefan (Jan 19, 2021)

Rocco said:



			Since the introduction of Handicap Index and Course Handicap a player could get confused and enter a handicap which is lower than entitled e.g. enters 22 on card when entitled to 23.
The players score is then entered in to Club V1 but it gives a  result based on 23 handicap . however his score should be based on what he enters on card if lower i.e 22 (obviously D.Q if player puts higher handicap than entitled to).
Previously there was a facility on Club V1 to adjust a players handicap prior to his score being input..
Club support advise that since the switchover to WHS that it is no longer a feature on the system...this is unsatisfactory ,do they actually understand the Rules of Golf/handicapping. What is the correct procedure ?
		
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Wouldn't the facility to enter 22 (in this case) cause problems with the the correct calculation of his Score Differential (used to calculate his new Index). WHS is primarily about handicaps not competition results. The DQ error should be sorted out off-line.


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Wouldn't the facility to enter 22 (in this case) cause problems with the the correct calculation of his Score Differential (used to calculate his new Index). WHS is primarily about handicaps not competition results. The DQ error should be sorted out off-line.
		
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IMO this is another pointer that with the WHS the powers to be “assume “ that everyone is going to be IT savvy and will be able and have access to using the technology


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## rulefan (Jan 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			IMO this is another pointer that with the WHS the powers to be “assume “ that everyone is going to be IT savvy and will be able and have access to using the technology
		
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I assume you mean 'players' when you say 'everyone'. Why should players be concerned? Their correct (WHS) handicap will be in the system. Card figures are the concern of the RoG savvy committee. If they aren't, they should be.


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## IanMcC (Jan 20, 2021)

I have no issue going through all cards and correcting errors. I am retired and have the time. The further we get from 2nd November, however, only convinces me that CSI are a company not fit for purpose. It's a shame, because my golf club will never leave them, as there would be too much admin moving 700 members' details. All CSI management should hang their heads in shame.


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## Old Skier (Jan 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I assume you mean 'players' when you say 'everyone'. Why should players be concerned? Their correct (WHS) handicap will be in the system. Card figures are the concern of the RoG savvy committee. If they aren't, they should be.
		
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If players don’t have the ability or knowledge on how to keep track on what could be a changing index it will cause some issues.

I have yet to meet a completely savvy RoG committee, that includes me and EG and rules officials, if your club has that luxury then well done.


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## Old Skier (Jan 20, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I have no issue going through all cards and correcting errors. I am retired and have the time. The further we get from 2nd November, however, only convinces me that CSI are a company not fit for purpose. It's a shame, because my golf club will never leave them, as there would be too much admin moving 700 members' details. All CSI management should hang their heads in shame.
		
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I can assure you at the moment clubs are having as many, and in some cases more issues with their ISVs.


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## rulefan (Jan 20, 2021)

I wouldn't necessarily disagree but in mitigation there are extenuating circumstances. CONGU/WHS were very tardy in getting the system specifications to the ISVs. dotgolf had a team over here but it was very limited. The effective time table set down by EG/CONGU did not provide for full destruction testing. Although the database conversion and nightly update process was fully specified (supposedly) the ISVs were virtually left to work out the player/club facing parts for themselves. Which is why IG, HM, CSI etc are experiencing different problems. Admittedly CSI seem to be suffering from more complaints than HM but there is a significant difference in their numbers of customers.
It really boils down to the fact that project management was notable by its absence.


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## rulefan (Jan 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If players don’t have the ability or knowledge on how to keep track on what could be a changing index it will cause some issues.
		
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I agree but that is a different issue and is not an ISV problem.




			I have yet to meet a completely savvy RoG committee, that includes me and EG and rules officials, if your club has that luxury then well done.
		
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If only


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## Rocco (Jan 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I assume you mean 'players' when you say 'everyone'. Why should players be concerned? Their correct (WHS) handicap will be in the system. Card figures are the concern of the RoG savvy committee. If they aren't, they should be.
		
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Hi rulefan thanks,I appreciate that the WHS system will fully take account of a players actual index and handicap for course played, that is not the issue...the dilemma is in producing a correct competition result sheet..

I fully accept that it is a players responsibility to ensure correct handicap on card but mistakes do happen and surely the competition result should be based on what he has entered on card. (or does this no longer apply ?)

This is nothing to do with being Tech savvy either,I don’t know if you are involved in Club V1 admin but there is simply *no way of producing a result sheet based on an incorrectly low handicap entered on card*...i.e a result sheet for a 23 handicap player will always produce a published result based on 23 handicap even if puts 18 on card, therefore still looking for a Club V1 solution


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## Rocco (Jan 20, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I have no issue going through all cards and correcting errors. I am retired and have the time. The further we get from 2nd November, however, only convinces me that CSI are a company not fit for purpose. It's a shame, because my golf club will never leave them, as there would be too much admin moving 700 members' details. All CSI management should hang their heads in shame.
		
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Hi Ian,,,are you actually saying that after a player has submitted his card* you* are changing his handicap on his card if it is incorrect ?.this is a whole new avenue to go down..
i agree with the rest of your comments though.


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## jim8flog (Jan 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Wouldn't the facility to enter 22 (in this case) cause problems with the the correct calculation of his Score Differential (used to calculate his new Index). WHS is primarily about handicaps not competition results. The DQ error should be sorted out off-line.
		
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 Surely what handicap is used is irrelevant to WHS adjustment.  The adjusted gross and differential will be same.

IG used to have the facility to adjust a players handicap for 'this comp only'.


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## IanMcC (Jan 20, 2021)

Rocco said:



			Hi Ian,,,are you actually saying that after a player has submitted his card* you* are changing his handicap on his card if it is incorrect ?.this is a whole new avenue to go down..
i agree with the rest of your comments though.
		
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During the winter period since the changeover I have received cards with many incorrect handicaps. People using the wrong conversion chart, people using their index as their course handicap, people trying to incorporate playing handicap, and even people using their old CONGU handicap. None of our winter comps are 'qualifiers', as we pick and place in the whole general area.
To this effect, I have been ignoring any incorrect Course Handicaps written on the card, and trying to educate people. Once we start playing qualifiers again, I will make it clear to my members that I will be less tolerant.
I think rulefan hit the nail on the head when he stated that WHS takes care of the handicap changes, but the M&H people sort out the comp. So, I see nothing wrong with checking the card of all the (potential) comp winners, and relegating them from prizes if needs be. Let WHS do its thing, and M&H do theirs.


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## rulefan (Jan 20, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Surely what handicap is used is irrelevant to WHS adjustment.  The adjusted gross and differential will be same.

IG used to have the facility to adjust a players handicap for 'this comp only'.
		
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That was a CONGU facility for a committee to make an adjustment for an Away player (*Clause 23.9*). Amongst other things it could be used to 'control' sandbaggers.


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## rosecott (Jan 20, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Surely what handicap is used is irrelevant to WHS adjustment.  The adjusted gross and differential will be same.

IG used to have the facility to adjust a players handicap for 'this comp only'.
		
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Handicapmaster has retained the ability to reduce the player's handicap "for this comp only", but only if the score is entered via the software. There is no option to do this for a player self-entering via the Masterscoreboard. Would he have changed it to a lower handicap if there was the option? I doubt that very much. The person administering the competition does, however, have the ability to edit the score - and the handicap - in the software if he gets the scorecard or a photograph of it. The competition result would be based on any reduced handicap "for this competition only" but the gross score would still go to WHS for any handicap adjustment based on the correct handicap.

If your current system doesn't involve the submission of a photograph of the scorecard, you are not going to be able to change anything in the result if you normally publish it fairly quickly. The problem then is "do you change the results if you subsequently find that a player has entered a lower handicap figure which would have affected his position in the prizes if it had been used?". How would you handle that?


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## jim8flog (Jan 20, 2021)

[QUOTE="rosecott, post: 2295937, member: 10467"
If your current system doesn't involve the submission of a photograph of the scorecard, you are not going to be able to change anything in the result if you normally publish it fairly quickly. The problem then is "do you change the results if you subsequently find that a player has entered a lower handicap figure which would have affected his position in the prizes if it had been used?". How would you handle that?[/QUOTE]

We do not use photos. Cards are returned and checked by the appropriate person.

We do reopen competitions to correct errors.

eg the last person who did the cards had incorrectly DQd someone (not a DQ reason). When it was corrected he went from DQ to first place.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 20, 2021)

Rocco said:



			Hi rulefan thanks,I appreciate that the WHS system will fully take account of a players actual index and handicap for course played, that is not the issue...the dilemma is in producing a correct competition result sheet..

I fully accept that it is a players responsibility to ensure correct handicap on card but mistakes do happen and surely the competition result should be based on what he has entered on card. (or does this no longer apply ?)

This is nothing to do with being Tech savvy either,I don’t know if you are involved in Club V1 admin but there is simply *no way of producing a result sheet based on an incorrectly low handicap entered on card*...i.e a result sheet for a 23 handicap player will always produce a published result based on 23 handicap even if puts 18 on card, therefore still looking for a Club V1 solution
		
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It is a good question, and to clarify, you are asking this question from the perspective of a COMPETITION secretary rather than a HANDICAP secretary.

And, to clarify, what you have found is that, if a player puts a handicap on their card that is too LOW, then from a competition results perspective, their result should be based on that lower handicap. However, the problem is that Club V1 does not allow this, and it will simply publish their result based on their correct handicap.

Clearly an issue, but I personally expect quite a few Committees are going to be very lenient, if not simply ignore any handicap mistakes on the card. Under the Rules of Golf they shouldn't, but WHS has added to Player confusion as to what handicaps they put on their card or how to get those values. There is no clear guidance as to how a Committee should act if they put the numbers in the wrong box, or if they just put in an Index and nothing else. Some think DQ as no Course Handicap, others say assume Index is their Course handicap (even though that was clearly not their intention), but that would require the competition sec to spot this, and manually reduce their index until their Course Handicap matches their Correct Index. They turn up, some know their index, others don't. Some can use a Phone App, others can't. Once they finally get their Index, they need to use the chart to get their course handicap. I've seen several read from the wrong tees, or read the wrong row and therefore come up with the wrong course handicap. Many have got in a complete muddle then about working out Playing handicap, with some simply using course handicap and others calculating it wrong. It may have no impact on their score for handicapping, but that does not pacify them when they get confused why their published result is different to what they thought they had.

Their may be argument that WHS is fairer, but it is many more times confusing when using it in practice.


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## rosecott (Jan 20, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			[QUOTE="rosecott, post: 2295937, member: 10467"
If your current system doesn't involve the submission of a photograph of the scorecard, you are not going to be able to change anything in the result if you normally publish it fairly quickly. The problem then is "do you change the results if you subsequently find that a player has entered a lower handicap figure which would have affected his position in the prizes if it had been used?". How would you handle that?
		
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We do not use photos. Cards are returned and checked by the appropriate person.

We do reopen competitions to correct errors.

eg the last person who did the cards had incorrectly DQd someone (not a DQ reason). When it was corrected he went from DQ to first place.[/QUOTE]

We, also, do not have submission of photographed scorecards. Following the original guidance, scorecards are posted in a clearly labelled locked box. These are removed after a minimum of 48 hours in the box. Up to the date of our last competition, there has been no need to change the competition result and, I hope that will continue.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2021)

For those on V1 and haven’t logged on for a while, new updated release notes available from 25 Jan.


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## fenwayrich (Jan 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			For those on V1 and haven’t logged on for a while, new updated release notes available from 25 Jan.
		
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Thanks for the information. I had a quick look today to add some narrative for our Opens, and saw that it's now possible to set up competitions based on maximum Handicap Index as well as Playing Handicap. Hopefully by the time we are back on the course, all problems will have been ironed out.


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## rulefan (Jan 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			For those on V1 and haven’t logged on for a while, new updated release notes available from 25 Jan.
		
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Have you got a link please?


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Have you got a link please?
		
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It’s a downloadable pdf, pm me your email and I can forward it


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## IanMcC (Jan 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			For those on V1 and haven’t logged on for a while, new updated release notes available from 25 Jan.
		
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Cheers. I dont have access to the full narrative of the changes, but one thing they have fixed is the 2 tee stableford playing handicap calculations. If we ever start playing golf in Wales again, at least I can now run the comps through ClubV1.


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## IanMcC (Feb 1, 2021)

The policy over at Club Systems must be changing somewhat. At 1130 yesterday morning (Sunday) I wrote to them requesting a 9 hole mixed comp template. By tea time they had replied, stating that the template is now added. Great stuff.


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## wjemather (Feb 1, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			The policy over at Club Systems must be changing somewhat. At 1130 yesterday morning (Sunday) I wrote to them requesting a 9 hole mixed comp template. By tea time they had replied, stating that the template is now added. Great stuff.
		
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We got it added a month or so ago - apparently it is an existing template that they inexplicably haven't enabled for everyone. Made me wonder what else they have hidden away...


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## rulefan (Feb 8, 2021)

I can't remember which thread it was in but a question arose re the transition using the PCC twice (ie the CSS adjustment) in County run events.
I can confirm that cannot happen future because the software is quite different but there is no automatic fix. 
The only fix is a manual one, "_when editing the score you need change the tee played to the correct SSS Value, they all look the same but if you hover over them you can see the values, but changing this to the right SSS=CR value it retains the PCC but removes the double counting"._


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2021)

Latest Dashboard updated user guide

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Golf-Club-Platform-Help-V2.0-final.pdf


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2021)

Are EG and the ISVs falling out of love ( if they ever were):

*World Handicap System Update*​ 
*ISV charges*

As the roll-out of the new World Handicap System (WHS) continues apace, we would like to make you aware of one aspect of our licence agreement with independent software vendors (ISVs).

When ISVs signed the WHS licence last July to gain access and connect with the new WHS platform, they also agreed to pay England Golf – the single authority for handicapping in England - an annual service charge.

This service charge process also applied during the years when CONGU operated the handicapping system throughout GB&I. Of course, one very important difference is that the ISVs are no longer required to carry out the handicap calculation. This is now done centrally by the England Golf WHS platform, ensuring that, across the country, handicaps are calculated consistently. 

The service provided by England Golf is now very different to that provided by CONGU.

On signing the WHS licence, ISVs agreed to pay a charge of £74.50 (plus VAT) every six months for each golf club to which they provide handicapping software.

The ISV service charge covers the full cost of all maintenance and ongoing enhancement of the WHS platform and My England Golf app to effectively support golfers and golf clubs. Also note that The R&A financed all development costs of the WHS platform without any charge being passed to any golf club or club member.

For clarity, it is not an individual charge to golf clubs from England Golf. 

That is why it formed part of the licence agreement between England Golf and ISVs.

Furthermore, we have not instructed ISVs to pass on and collect this fee from clubs on our behalf. As with the CONGU service charge, it is a matter for ISVs how they incorporate these expenses into their business model.

However, we are aware that some ISVs have now made the business decision to include this service charge in their invoices to golf clubs and we are disappointed that a licence holder would choose to pass the full burden of their responsibility for payment to golf clubs.

Should any golf club that has been presented with this scenario and has had a genuine financial challenge in meeting the payment for 2020 (£74.50 during an unprecedented pandemic year), then we would ask you to contact us at whs.support@englandgolf.orgto discuss the matter further.


*Golfer education and platform guide
*
As we all look forward to the reopening of courses at the earliest opportunity, we would like to remind clubs of the ongoing importance of golfer education.

Golf club and golfer resources sent out in the course of 2020 continue to be available on the England Golf website, including recently updated information on stroke indices, applying for course ratings, updating course details and the golf club platform user guide version 2.0 - all relevant documents can be found on our WHS club resources page.

We would encourage you to direct your members to these educational tools in advance of golf returning post-lockdown.

Please also look out for new features being added soon to the ‘My England Golf’ app which will enhance the experience of playing golf under the WHS system for all players.​


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## nickjdavis (Feb 9, 2021)

I wonder how much the "old" CONGU service charge was?

I'm actually surprised that the ISV's pay anything now given that their role now has nothing to do with handicaps and has been reduced to being little more than "competition management" platforms. 

I find it strange that the ISV's are asked to pay anything for the ongoing maintenance of a system and an app that they seemingly have no responsibility for.


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## rulefan (Feb 9, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I wonder how much the "old" CONGU service charge was?

I'm actually surprised that the ISV's pay anything now given that their role now has nothing to do with handicaps and has been reduced to being little more than "competition management" platforms.

I find it strange that the ISV's are asked to pay anything for the ongoing maintenance of a system and an app that they seemingly have no responsibility for.
		
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Their 'competition management' platform would be pretty useless without access to the WHS handicap data.


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## jim8flog (Feb 9, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I wonder how much the "old" CONGU service charge was?

I'm actually surprised that the ISV's pay anything now given that their role now has nothing to do with handicaps and has been reduced to being little more than "competition management" platforms.

I find it strange that the ISV's are asked to pay anything for the ongoing maintenance of a system and an app that they seemingly have no responsibility for.
		
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 I still get to see all my handicap info on the IG platform without the need to go to the EG website.

  £74.50 + VAT spread over most membership numbers is such a small amount it is hardly worth worrying about (about 12p where I play).


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## nickjdavis (Feb 9, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Their 'competition management' platform would be pretty useless without access to the WHS handicap data.
		
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That's fair enough....though its not the ISV's fault that half their product has been taken away from them...and now they're being asked to pay for the privilege of accessing the data that they were once able to create for themselves......so I go back to the original question....how does the £74.50 compare to the old fee they paid Congu?

Out of interest...did EG ever ask for a contribution from ISV's to support the CDH?


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## rosecott (Feb 9, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			That's fair enough....though its not the ISV's fault that half their product has been taken away from them...and now they're being asked to pay for the privilege of accessing the data that they were once able to create for themselves......so I go back to the original question....how does the £74.50 compare to the old fee they paid Congu?

Out of interest...did EG ever ask for a contribution from ISV's to support the CDH?
		
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Handicapmaster's annual invoices always stated that the annual maintenance fee included a royalty payment to CONGU without specifying the amount.


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## rulefan (Feb 10, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			That's fair enough....though its not the ISV's fault that half their product has been taken away from them...and now they're being asked to pay for the privilege of accessing the data that they were once able to create for themselves......so I go back to the original question....how does the £74.50 compare to the old fee they paid Congu?

Out of interest...did EG ever ask for a contribution from ISV's to support the CDH?
		
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They could have come out of it much worse. EG could have written their own front end as other countries have done.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 10, 2021)

rulefan said:



			They could have come out of it much worse. EG could have written their own front end as other countries have done.
		
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Yeah and given what's happened over the last year or so with the WHS implementation we can all imagine how that might have ended up.


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## IanMcC (Feb 10, 2021)

We have ClubV1 as our software package. I dont have full admin access. Annoyingly, our secretary, when she gets a new member, insists she has to put something into the Handicap Index field, so she puts in 28.0. Im sure this can be bypassed. Its really frustrating telling people that they cannot play off of that handicap index until they put 3 cards in, and then it will alter. Can someone talk me through the process, please, if it is possible?


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			We have ClubV1 as our software package. I dont have full admin access. Annoyingly, our secretary, when she gets a new member, insists she has to put something into the Handicap Index field, so she puts in 28.0. Im sure this can be bypassed. Its really frustrating telling people that they cannot play off of that handicap index until they put 3 cards in, and then it will alter. Can someone talk me through the process, please, if it is possible?
		
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There is no need to add a handicap when initially entering a new member if they do not hold a handicap or CDH No.


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## IanMcC (Feb 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is no need to add a handicap when initially entering a new member if they do not hold a handicap or CDH No.
		
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Thanks for that. I thought that was the case, but she is insistent that she cant progress without putting something in that field. (This is a secretary who didn't know how to take a screenshot before I showed her, though.)


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## 2blue (Feb 10, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Thanks for that. I thought that was the case, but she is insistent that she cant progress without putting something in that field. (This is a secretary who didn't know how to take a screenshot before I showed her, though.)
		
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It's very simple......  Member with no H/cap!!


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## IanMcC (Feb 10, 2021)

That's brilliant. I will snip this and send it to her. Should be obvious then. Many thanks.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			That's brilliant. I will snip this and send it to her. Should be obvious then. Many thanks.
		
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Seems like she would benefit looking at the Club Systems YouTube site for some tutorials.


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## mikejohnchapman (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Are EG and the ISVs falling out of love ( if they ever were):

​*World Handicap System Update*


​*ISV charges*

As the roll-out of the new World Handicap System (WHS) continues apace, we would like to make you aware of one aspect of our licence agreement with independent software vendors (ISVs).

When ISVs signed the WHS licence last July to gain access and connect with the new WHS platform, they also agreed to pay England Golf – the single authority for handicapping in England - an annual service charge.

This service charge process also applied during the years when CONGU operated the handicapping system throughout GB&I. Of course, one very important difference is that the ISVs are no longer required to carry out the handicap calculation. This is now done centrally by the England Golf WHS platform, ensuring that, across the country, handicaps are calculated consistently.

The service provided by England Golf is now very different to that provided by CONGU.

On signing the WHS licence, ISVs agreed to pay a charge of £74.50 (plus VAT) every six months for each golf club to which they provide handicapping software.

The ISV service charge covers the full cost of all maintenance and ongoing enhancement of the WHS platform and My England Golf app to effectively support golfers and golf clubs. Also note that The R&A financed all development costs of the WHS platform without any charge being passed to any golf club or club member.

For clarity, it is not an individual charge to golf clubs from England Golf.

That is why it formed part of the licence agreement between England Golf and ISVs.

Furthermore, we have not instructed ISVs to pass on and collect this fee from clubs on our behalf. As with the CONGU service charge, it is a matter for ISVs how they incorporate these expenses into their business model.

However, we are aware that some ISVs have now made the business decision to include this service charge in their invoices to golf clubs and we are disappointed that a licence holder would choose to pass the full burden of their responsibility for payment to golf clubs.

Should any golf club that has been presented with this scenario and has had a genuine financial challenge in meeting the payment for 2020 (£74.50 during an unprecedented pandemic year), then we would ask you to contact us at whs.support@englandgolf.orgto discuss the matter further.


*Golfer education and platform guide*

As we all look forward to the reopening of courses at the earliest opportunity, we would like to remind clubs of the ongoing importance of golfer education.

Golf club and golfer resources sent out in the course of 2020 continue to be available on the England Golf website, including recently updated information on stroke indices, applying for course ratings, updating course details and the golf club platform user guide version 2.0 - all relevant documents can be found on our WHS club resources page.

We would encourage you to direct your members to these educational tools in advance of golf returning post-lockdown.

Please also look out for new features being added soon to the ‘My England Golf’ app which will enhance the experience of playing golf under the WHS system for all players.
		
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I saw this and had 2 initial reactions:

First, with golf shutdown and clubs really struggling is this the most important thing England Golf is focussed on? If so they need to look at themselves long and hard in the mirror!

Second, in business when you see this kind of a*** covering memo you realise they are trying to ensure any blame for these costs are placed firmly on the ISVs. Do they really expect a business that has had to rewrite their software to incur additional costs without passing them onto the end user? I suspect the relationship between EG and the ISV is not very good and notes like this aren't going to help.

I must admit my impression of EG over the whole WHS saga has been that they have not done a good job. Indeed without the lockdowns being in place I fear the whole implementation might have failed. Notes like this don't make me feel they are in charge of matters.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I saw this and had 2 initial reactions:

First, with golf shutdown and clubs really struggling is this the most important thing England Golf is focussed on? If so they need to look at themselves long and hard in the mirror!

Second, in business when you see this kind of a*** covering memo you realise they are trying to ensure any blame for these costs are placed firmly on the ISVs. Do they really expect a business that has had to rewrite their software to incur additional costs without passing them onto the end user? I suspect the relationship between EG and the ISV is not very good and notes like this aren't going to help.

I must admit my impression of EG over the whole WHS saga has been that they have not done a good job. Indeed without the lockdowns being in place I fear the whole implementation might have failed. Notes like this don't make me feel they are in charge of matters.
		
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Local and regional EG reps are at times, quite helpful but the service received from HQ isn’t the best. Over the last 3 years all I have heard from the people who have been down for briefings is what nice courses they got to play while ”sorting” the WHS. I always wonder how much they pay to play at Woodhall.

Financially with some of their schemes they don’t even operate from a level playing fields, we have never received any grants from them as “we don’t have a resident pro” argument is always used although the person who helps with our juniors and team members is an ex pro.


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## mikejohnchapman (Feb 11, 2021)

I was aware of this issue after transition as several of our players had "tournament" entries. When I suggested I could change them to the correct county venues i was told not to as it would be unfair to the rest of the field who would not have their record updated. Things appear to have changed!

I think all county and third party events - such as the UKSGA - will have this problem. A lot use IG as their management software but I don't think the issue is with the ISV.

*United Kingdom Senior Golf Association.*
/uploads/uksga/File/WHS ERROR in Tournament Calculations.pdf
Dear All,
As a result of some excellent work by Ian Attoe a discrepancy in the calculations of away scores at "Tournaments" has been identified. Please click on the link above to read the full correspondence and if you feel your handicap has changed as a result of this then please contact EG directly.
If you wish to check on any of the UKSGA events you played in then the CSS and all relevant information is available on the results page of our website.
It is important to emphasise that it was a conversion error and not a fault in the WHS algorithm.
The President contacted EG and had a reply and a corrected WHS index back within 48hrs and now plays of 16 sorry 1.6
Please send your correspondence to Gemma Hunter at ; whs.support@englandgolf.org
We look forward to the season starting soon and will be in touch as soon as we have any positive news.


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## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2021)

New release notes are out for V1, you will need admin rights to download them so may need to go to your admin to email them to you. If you don’t get any joy I have a copy, pm me an email address.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2021)

Useful info:

*Unsatisfied score intents update for WHS*

As part of the ongoing development work within the WHS portal, some new functionality has recently been added around  ‘Unsatisfied Score Intents’.  

This is where a participant has declared an intention to submit a score for handicap purposes and then not actually returned it.

Within the reports section of the WHS portal, each club and county have the opportunity to view information which clarifies missing score submissions.

By using the time and date stamps connected to each record, it is possible for clubs and counties to understand those participants who may have accidentally declared their intent, from an app for example, and differentiate from those who have genuinely not returned a score.

Clubs and counties can delete those intents created in error - via the WHS portal directly within each participant record.


The remaining (actual) intents will be removed from the report once an appropriate score has been recorded via the relevant ISV software.  Should the score not be located a relevant penalty score is to be added to the participant’s record by the club handicap committee.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2021)

Apology if I've posted on the wrong section but I didn't want to do a whole thread for one question. 

The rule (?) That medals are off 95% handicap - is that set in stone or can Clubs choose whether to or not apply it?

Thanks guys!


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## wjemather (Mar 10, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Apology if I've posted on the wrong section but I didn't want to do a whole thread for one question.

The rule (?) That medals are off 95% handicap - is that set in stone or can Clubs choose whether to or not apply it?

Thanks guys!
		
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CONGU guidance makes it mandatory.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2021)

wjemather said:



			CONGU guidance makes it mandatory.
		
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Thank you 👍


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Apology if I've posted on the wrong section but I didn't want to do a whole thread for one question.

The rule (?) That medals are off 95% handicap - is that set in stone or can Clubs choose whether to or not apply it?

Thanks guys!
		
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WHS rules now and it is mandatory.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Apology if I've posted on the wrong section but I didn't want to do a whole thread for one question.

The rule (?) That medals are off 95% handicap - is that set in stone or can Clubs choose whether to or not apply it?

Thanks guys!
		
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And Stableford


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			And Stableford
		
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Cheers Jeff


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## rulefan (Mar 10, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Apology if I've posted on the wrong section but I didn't want to do a whole thread for one question.

The rule (?) That medals are off 95% handicap - is that set in stone or can Clubs choose whether to or not apply it?

Thanks guys!
		
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the 95% is only used for competition result purposes. 
Resultant Handicap Index adjustments are based on the 100% Course Handicap.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2021)

rulefan said:



			the 95% is only used for competition result purposes.
Resultant Handicap Index adjustments are based on the 100% Course Handicap.
		
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So, is the adjustment made at the end of the round on the computer or by the competitor before hand?


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So, is the adjustment made at the end of the round on the computer or by the competitor before hand?
		
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For the comp at the beginning


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## jim8flog (Mar 10, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So, is the adjustment made at the end of the round on the computer or by the competitor before hand?
		
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 If you are playing stableford it is important not to NR holes because you would not score with 95% but would score with 100% as handicap adjustments are based upon 100%.


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## rulefan (Mar 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So, is the adjustment made at the end of the round on the computer or by the competitor before hand?
		
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Both. When you enter the comp, the PSI or phone app software will show both figures and will do the resultant calculations when you return your scores. If your club has installed card or label printers they will be printed for you.


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## jim8flog (Mar 11, 2021)

rulefan said:



			If your club has installed card or label printers they will be printed for you.
		
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It is important that any printed version done on the day of the comp (may not be important for some)

 The trouble with tis under the WHS is that cards now cannot be printed until 12.01 am on the day of the comp to ensure accuracy.

The seniors section always used to leave printed cards next to the sign in book for comps. I  pointed this out to the 2 people who did this and they did not want to do it at that time of day. (Our senior comps are on a Monday morning and quite a few also play in the club Sunday comp).


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			It is important that any printed version done on the day of the comp (may not be important for some)

The trouble with tis under the WHS is that cards now cannot be printed until 12.01 am on the day of the comp to ensure accuracy.

The seniors section always used to leave printed cards next to the sign in book for comps. I  pointed this out to the 2 people who did this and they did not want to do it at that time of day. (Our senior comps are on a Monday morning and quite a few also play in the club Sunday comp).
		
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Highlighted an issue that some might not have at club level


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2021)

Anyone got the link to the idiots guide on using the dashboard


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## wjemather (Mar 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone got the link to the idiots guide on using the dashboard
		
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As user guides go, it's pretty bad, but here it is:
https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Golf-Club-Platform-Help-2.0.pdf


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2021)

wjemather said:



			As user guides go, it's pretty bad, but here it is:
https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Golf-Club-Platform-Help-2.0.pdf

Click to expand...

Ta muchly


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## fenwayrich (Mar 22, 2021)

I am trying to set up a few early competitions on ClubV1. To try and achieve equality of numbers, we have decided to base our divisional limits on Handicap Index, up to 8.9, 9.0 to 14.8, and 14.9 upwards. ClubV1 does not appear to allow decimal places for divisions, it is whole integers only. Am I correct or misunderstanding something?

The latest release notes include the following:
Competitions – Fixed an issue when using Handicap Index as the Division Type with rounding exact handicaps so players are in the correct division.

That’s as clear as mud to me. Are they saying that if you set the Handicap Index Limit to 9, anyone off 9.4 will be in that Division and off 9.5 will be in the higher one?


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I am trying to set up a few early competitions on ClubV1. To try and achieve equality of numbers, we have decided to base our divisional limits on Handicap Index, up to 8.9, 9.0 to 14.8, and 14.9 upwards. ClubV1 does not appear to allow decimal places for divisions, it is whole integers only. Am I correct or misunderstanding something?

The latest release notes include the following:
Competitions – Fixed an issue when using Handicap Index as the Division Type with rounding exact handicaps so players are in the correct division.

That’s as clear as mud to me. Are they saying that if you set the Handicap Index Limit to 9, anyone off 9.4 will be in that Division and off 9.5 will be in the higher one?
		
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In all honesty I would copy and paste this into V1 chat system and you’d get a quick actual answer. Would be interested in the answer.


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## rulefan (Mar 22, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I am trying to set up a few early competitions on ClubV1. To try and achieve equality of numbers, we have decided to base our divisional limits on Handicap Index, up to 8.9, 9.0 to 14.8, and 14.9 upwards. ClubV1 does not appear to allow decimal places for divisions, it is whole integers only. Am I correct or misunderstanding something?

The latest release notes include the following:
Competitions – Fixed an issue when using Handicap Index as the Division Type with rounding exact handicaps so players are in the correct division.

That’s as clear as mud to me. Are they saying that if you set the Handicap Index Limit to 9, anyone off 9.4 will be in that Division and off 9.5 will be in the higher one?
		
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I haven't tried it but that's how it reads to me.


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## fenwayrich (Mar 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I haven't tried it but that's how it reads
		
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Old Skier said:



			In all honesty I would copy and paste this into V1 chat system and you’d get a quick actual answer. Would be interested in the answer.
		
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You were right, they responded very quickly, and I quote 'Unfortunately, ClubV1 does not use decimal places for Divisions currently. Our Development Team are reviewing this and may add in a future update.' Indexes of, say, 8.5 to 9.4 are included as 9, and 9.5 to 10.4 are 10.

They also mentioned that they have received a number of questions asking about this and indicated that if if they receive a large amount of Clubs passing through this feedback then that should hopefully add some priority. Our club will be emailing them asap.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 1, 2021)

So, missed out on the last dozen of pages or so on this thread, but have following query:

Club V1 and New members submitting 3 scores - I have entered 3 scores today for a new member, and done so via Club V1. My process was:


As they have no handicap to start with, assign them a random handicap (20.0 in this case)
Once I've assigned a random handicap, Club V1 allows me to assign a CDH. So, I did this.
Enter the player's 3 scores, played over the last 3 days.
I then checked the WHS Portal, and the CDH number for this player correctly matches up with the one created by Club V1, so that is good news. However, the Scoring History is blank at the moment on the WHS Portal. So, on Club V1 the Player's handicap is still shown as 20.0, WHS says Pending.

So, at minimum, I am hoping that this will simply all correct itself at midnight today, and we will have an official handicap tomorrow (I'll report back if not the case).

However, what would have happened if I had entered these scores directly in the WHS Portal rather than Club V1. From memory, before Xmas, WHS then provided an instant initial handicap based on those 3 scores. This would be preferable to me, because once I create an initial handicap for a player, I like to send them out an e-mail notification at that point to tell them what it is, and all other handicap related details that they will want to know about. However, if Club V1 takes a day before providing the initial handicap, there is no way I'll be in a position to constantly go back a day later and finish what I started (I don't undertake this work in an office where I can easily set up a daily routine, I update things as and when I can, whether it be at club, work or home, and no doubt I'll eventually need help from the rest of the handicap committee).

So, in short, I'm asking do people prefer to enter the first 3 scores via Club V1 or via WHS Portal. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both?


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## IanMcC (Apr 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, missed out on the last dozen of pages or so on this thread, but have following query:

Club V1 and New members submitting 3 scores - I have entered 3 scores today for a new member, and done so via Club V1. My process was:


As they have no handicap to start with, assign them a random handicap (20.0 in this case)
Once I've assigned a random handicap, Club V1 allows me to assign a CDH. So, I did this.
Enter the player's 3 scores, played over the last 3 days.
I then checked the WHS Portal, and the CDH number for this player correctly matches up with the one created by Club V1, so that is good news. However, the Scoring History is blank at the moment on the WHS Portal. So, on Club V1 the Player's handicap is still shown as 20.0, WHS says Pending.

So, at minimum, I am hoping that this will simply all correct itself at midnight today, and we will have an official handicap tomorrow (I'll report back if not the case).

However, what would have happened if I had entered these scores directly in the WHS Portal rather than Club V1. From memory, before Xmas, WHS then provided an instant initial handicap based on those 3 scores. This would be preferable to me, because once I create an initial handicap for a player, I like to send them out an e-mail notification at that point to tell them what it is, and all other handicap related details that they will want to know about. However, if Club V1 takes a day before providing the initial handicap, there is no way I'll be in a position to constantly go back a day later and finish what I started (I don't undertake this work in an office where I can easily set up a daily routine, I update things as and when I can, whether it be at club, work or home, and no doubt I'll eventually need help from the rest of the handicap committee).

So, in short, I'm asking do people prefer to enter the first 3 scores via Club V1 or via WHS Portal. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both?
		
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I dont have full admin rights on ClubV1. The Office Secretary creates new members. As M&H Secretary, I do all the Handicap admin though. Our office secretary went down a similar path to you, but it created difficulties. She was using the first hyperlink she saw after adding a new person, which is 'Golfing Member (CDH)'. Using this link a Handicap number must be entered. She entered 28. So now ClubV1 thinks they have a handicap, in which case you cannot directly add a new CDH number, as the system believes they have one already.
I have asked her to use the 'Member With No Handicap' hyperlink. That way CDH and handicap can be left blank. Here is the process I have adopted for initial handicap cards for a new member.

1. Add new member on Dashboard, making sure name, email address and DOB are all added. This will create a CDH number.
2. Use Dashboard to enter the 3 cards for initial handicap. This will create a handicap index.
3. Go back to ClubV1 and input the CDH number. This will upload the Handicap Index to ClubV1. This bit might need a data sync, cant remember. If it does, its easy. Just go to ClubV1 Scoring record and click the + sign underneath the player details. The option to Sync handicap details is under there.

Using this method stops inputting false data into ClubV1. Im sure some of the boffins will pick holes in all of this, but it works for me.


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, missed out on the last dozen of pages or so on this thread, but have following query:

Club V1 and New members submitting 3 scores - I have entered 3 scores today for a new member, and done so via Club V1. My process was:


As they have no handicap to start with, assign them a random handicap (20.0 in this case)
Once I've assigned a random handicap, Club V1 allows me to assign a CDH. So, I did this.
Enter the player's 3 scores, played over the last 3 days.
I then checked the WHS Portal, and the CDH number for this player correctly matches up with the one created by Club V1, so that is good news. However, the Scoring History is blank at the moment on the WHS Portal. So, on Club V1 the Player's handicap is still shown as 20.0, WHS says Pending.

So, at minimum, I am hoping that this will simply all correct itself at midnight today, and we will have an official handicap tomorrow (I'll report back if not the case).

However, what would have happened if I had entered these scores directly in the WHS Portal rather than Club V1. From memory, before Xmas, WHS then provided an instant initial handicap based on those 3 scores. This would be preferable to me, because once I create an initial handicap for a player, I like to send them out an e-mail notification at that point to tell them what it is, and all other handicap related details that they will want to know about. However, if Club V1 takes a day before providing the initial handicap, there is no way I'll be in a position to constantly go back a day later and finish what I started (I don't undertake this work in an office where I can easily set up a daily routine, I update things as and when I can, whether it be at club, work or home, and no doubt I'll eventually need help from the rest of the handicap committee).

So, in short, I'm asking do people prefer to enter the first 3 scores via Club V1 or via WHS Portal. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both?
		
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I asked the same of our county HC rep and really I’m not sure it makes much difference, where you have to be on the ball and we are rewording our introduction package as the member must register on the EG site.

I’m also disappointed with an issue of members coming from other clubs as I can’t see why they would need to re-register which I was told they wouldn’t but looking at the dashboard, it looks like they do, anyone know any different.


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I dont have full admin rights on ClubV1. The Office Secretary creates new members. As M&H Secretary, I do all the Handicap admin though. Our office secretary went down a similar path to you, but it created difficulties. She was using the first hyperlink she saw after adding a new person, which is 'Golfing Member (CDH)'. Using this link a Handicap number must be entered. She entered 28. So now ClubV1 thinks they have a handicap, in which case you cannot directly add a new CDH number, as the system believes they have one already.
I have asked her to use the 'Member With No Handicap' hyperlink. That way CDH and handicap can be left blank. Here is the process I have adopted for initial handicap cards for a new member.

1. Add new member on Dashboard, making sure name, email address and DOB are all added. This will create a CDH number.
2. Use Dashboard to enter the 3 cards for initial handicap. This will create a handicap index.
3. Go back to ClubV1 and input the CDH number. This will upload the Handicap Index to ClubV1. This bit might need a data sync, cant remember. If it does, its easy. Just go to ClubV1 Scoring record and click the + sign underneath the player details. The option to Sync handicap details is under there.

Using this method stops inputting false data into ClubV1. Im sure some of the boffins will pick holes in all of this, but it works for me.
		
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Our admin is a non golfer and started entering HC with new members, stopped her now but I still do everything through V1


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## Swango1980 (Apr 1, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I dont have full admin rights on ClubV1. The Office Secretary creates new members. As M&H Secretary, I do all the Handicap admin though. Our office secretary went down a similar path to you, but it created difficulties. She was using the first hyperlink she saw after adding a new person, which is 'Golfing Member (CDH)'. Using this link a Handicap number must be entered. She entered 28. So now ClubV1 thinks they have a handicap, in which case you cannot directly add a new CDH number, as the system believes they have one already.
I have asked her to use the 'Member With No Handicap' hyperlink. That way CDH and handicap can be left blank. Here is the process I have adopted for initial handicap cards for a new member.

1. Add new member on Dashboard, making sure name, email address and DOB are all added. This will create a CDH number.
2. Use Dashboard to enter the 3 cards for initial handicap. This will create a handicap index.
3. Go back to ClubV1 and input the CDH number. This will upload the Handicap Index to ClubV1. This bit might need a data sync, cant remember. If it does, its easy. Just go to ClubV1 Scoring record and click the + sign underneath the player details. The option to Sync handicap details is under there.

Using this method stops inputting false data into ClubV1. Im sure some of the boffins will pick holes in all of this, but it works for me.
		
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I am in same position as you, do not have full admin rights. So, owners staff enter new members in system. They seem to do this OK, but due to turnover in staff, no doubt there will be issues at times.

I think I will adopt your method of creating the new member and entering 3 scores in WHS Portal first, then going to Club V1 to link up after. Using Club V1 first is just messy and counter intuitive. Having to make up an initial handicap before assigning a CDH is just comical really.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I am in same position as you, do not have full admin rights. So, owners staff enter new members in system. They seem to do this OK, but due to turnover in staff, no doubt there will be issues at times.

I think I will adopt your method of creating the new member and entering 3 scores in WHS Portal first, then going to Club V1 to link up after. Using Club V1 first is just messy and counter intuitive. Having to make up an initial handicap before assigning a CDH is just comical really.
		
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Not sure why you would need to have a CDH before the cards are submitted?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure why you would need to have a CDH before the cards are submitted?
		
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Sorry, to clarify:

On Club V1, if a member does not have to handicapp, the only option Club V1 gives me is "Add an existing handicap +". There is no other option, such as enter scores for initial handicap.

When I select that option, I just have to type in a random handicap to give them.

Once done, I can only then enter the 3 scores. Before I entered the 3 scores, I assigned a CDH to ensure their record was set up on WHS. But, I could only assign the CDH AFTER giving them a fake handicap. Off the top of my head, I cannot remember if the CDH had to be entered before the 3 scores were entered, or it could easily have been done afterwards (although either way it still doesn't get round the fact I had to give them a fake handicap to begin with). 

When I set new members up directly on WHS Portal, it seemed much more logical.

PS, I have checked this particular new members handicap today, and thankfully it has now eventually updated to be based on the 3 scores rather than the fake handicap I gave her.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Sorry, to clarify:

On Club V1, if a member does not have to handicapp, the only option Club V1 gives me is "Add an existing handicap +". There is no other option, such as enter scores for initial handicap.

When I select that option, I just have to type in a random handicap to give them.

Once done, I can only then enter the 3 scores. Before I entered the 3 scores, I assigned a CDH to ensure their record was set up on WHS. But, I could only assign the CDH AFTER giving them a fake handicap. Off the top of my head, I cannot remember if the CDH had to be entered before the 3 scores were entered, or it could easily have been done afterwards (although either way it still doesn't get round the fact I had to give them a fake handicap to begin with).

When I set new members up directly on WHS Portal, it seemed much more logical.

PS, I have checked this particular new members handicap today, and thankfully it has now eventually updated to be based on the 3 scores rather than the fake handicap I gave her.
		
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I think there is a way on V1 to do this but unfortunately I'm on car washing duty this morning. I'll have a look when I have a chance 🤔


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## 2blue (Apr 2, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Sorry, to clarify:

On Club V1, if a member does not have to handicapp, the only option Club V1 gives me is "Add an existing handicap +". There is no other option, such as enter scores for initial handicap.

When I select that option, I just have to type in a random handicap to give them.

Once done, I can only then enter the 3 scores. Before I entered the 3 scores, I assigned a CDH to ensure their record was set up on WHS. But, I could only assign the CDH AFTER giving them a fake handicap. Off the top of my head, I cannot remember if the CDH had to be entered before the 3 scores were entered, or it could easily have been done afterwards (although either way it still doesn't get round the fact I had to give them a fake handicap to begin with).

When I set new members up directly on WHS Portal, it seemed much more logical.

PS, I have checked this particular new members handicap today, and thankfully it has now eventually updated to be based on the 3 scores rather than the fake handicap I gave her.
		
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Follow this screen shot..... PEOPLE.... ADD PERSON.... select GOLFING MEMBER (No CDH)....then see my next post


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## 2blue (Apr 2, 2021)

NEXT.....  go to their Record just created "Club V1 Scoring Rounds" & the scores will be added as Casual Rounds using + sign. Can also assign a CDH....  good luck


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2021)

@2blue , did you miss a stage. Don’t you have to first hit the add a score button and save (without adding the score) to assign and then the add casual round. May be wrong as I’m doing this from memory without system in front of me.


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## 2blue (Apr 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



@2blue , did you miss a stage. Don’t you have to first hit the add a score button and save (without adding the score) to assign and then the add casual round. May be wrong as I’m doing this from memory without system in front of me.
		
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Not sure about that. Should be able to tinker his way around things. Let us know as I haven't actually done the process myself.


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## rosecott (Apr 3, 2021)

Our Winter Alliance restarted this week and I was a bit taken aback by something stated in the results.

It said "*Please let your club match and handicap secretaries be aware that they can register your cards with WHS* ".

This suggests to me that that thiss gives options that really should not be available. 
Should all cards from all clubs be submitted? 
Can some clubs submit cards and other clubs decide not to? 
Can clubs decide to submit some cards but not submit others? 
Can individual players decide if they want to submit cards or not?

Any Club/Handicap Secretaries in this position?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Our Winter Alliance restarted this week and I was a bit taken aback by something stated in the results.

It said "*Please let your club match and handicap secretaries be aware that they can register your cards with WHS* ".

This suggests to me that that thiss gives options that really should not be available.
Should all cards from all clubs be submitted?
Can some clubs submit cards and other clubs decide not to?
Can clubs decide to submit some cards but not submit others?
Can individual players decide if they want to submit cards or not?

Any Club/Handicap Secretaries in this position?
		
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As handicap secretary at my club, there is no way I will be insisting anyone submit cards (outside official competitions of course) from any regular roll-up types. They are welcome to as General Play rounds, but no pressure from me. Just like pre-WHS.

If England Golf are upset with that, they are welcome to ask me to resign my position (I'd be quite happy for more free time to be honest), and ask the club to find someone who is willing to make any demands of members, whether they like it or not.


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## rosecott (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As handicap secretary at my club, there is no way I will be insisting anyone submit cards (outside official competitions of course) from any regular roll-up types. They are welcome to as General Play rounds, but no pressure from me. Just like pre-WHS.

If England Golf are upset with that, they are welcome to ask me to resign my position (I'd be quite happy for more free time to be honest), and ask the club to find someone who is willing to make any demands of members, whether they like it or not.
		
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I am not talking about roll ups. I'm talking about the County Winter Professional and Amateur Alliance played at a number of venues around the county. The term Winter Alliance might confuse you as the fixtures are now being played in Spring/Summer due to lockdown.


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I am not talking about roll ups. I'm talking about the County Winter Professional and Amateur Alliance played at a number of venues around the county. The term Winter Alliance might confuse you as the fixtures are now being played in Spring/Summer due to lockdown.
		
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I presume these are comps that are run through their own software and if so would require the person to pre-register the intention as far as I’m concerned.

The Pro Am Alliances are after all just another form of society albeit they are played by those with official HCs.


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## jim8flog (Apr 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I presume these are comps that are run through their own software and if so would require the person to pre-register the intention as far as I’m concerned.

The Pro Am Alliances are after all just another form of society albeit they are played by those with official HCs.
		
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There is no need to preregister. The H/C sec is allowed to treat these as being preregistered without the player having done so.
Guidance on the Rules of handicapping G2.1a(1) para 4


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## jim8flog (Apr 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Our Winter Alliance restarted this week and I was a bit taken aback by something stated in the results.

It said "*Please let your club match and handicap secretaries be aware that they can register your cards with WHS* ".

This suggests to me that that thiss gives options that really should not be available.
Should all cards from all clubs be submitted?
Can some clubs submit cards and other clubs decide not to?
Can clubs decide to submit some cards but not submit others?
Can individual players decide if they want to submit cards or not?

Any Club/Handicap Secretaries in this position?
		
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 The guideline is 

Guidance on the Rules G2.1a (1)


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## rosecott (Apr 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			There is no need to preregister. The H/C sec is allowed to treat these as being preregistered without the player having done so.
Guidance on the Rules of handicapping G2.1a(1) para 4
		
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Thank you, I am aware of those rules. 

My point is that I would then expect that all my 6 or so players should be returning scorecards - good or bad - and the same should apply to all the other clubs. I am in disagreement with the Alliance organisers over this and do not wish to post details but I am willing to PM any Secretary with those details.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 3, 2021)

Our understanding of the PCC calculation was that for any given day, the PCC would be calculated at the end of the day, based solely on scores submitted that day (within the restrictions of what scores are allowed to contribute to the PCC). If no scores were submitted on that day then there would be no PCC calculation made. If a score was subsequently entered (e.g. on the following day) then because no PCC had been calculated for the previous day, no PCC adjustment would be applied to the score.

We had a strokeplay competition played yesterday. All scores for yesterdays competition were entered by a committee member this morning.

A PCC has been calculated for yesterdays competition and applied to players score differentials! This goes against my (and my handicap secretaries) understanding of how things were supposed to work. I can confirm that no other scores were entered yesterday that may have caused a PCC to have been made.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it something that the authorities have changed in "the background". Or is our understanding of how things work simply wrong?


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Thank you, I am aware of those rules.

My point is that I would then expect that all my 6 or so players should be returning scorecards - good or bad - and the same should apply to all the other clubs. I am in disagreement with the Alliance organisers over this and do not wish to post details but I am willing to PM any Secretary with those details.
		
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Im with you, all or nobody. Alliance organiser should be of the same mind. I’d be interested in why he feels it should only apply to some. Love some background.


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## rosecott (Apr 3, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Our understanding of the PCC calculation was that for any given day, the PCC would be calculated at the end of the day, based solely on scores submitted that day (within the restrictions of what scores are allowed to contribute to the PCC). If no scores were submitted on that day then there would be no PCC calculation made. If a score was subsequently entered (e.g. on the following day) then because no PCC had been calculated for the previous day, no PCC adjustment would be applied to the score.

We had a strokeplay competition played yesterday. All scores for yesterdays competition were entered by a committee member this morning.

A PCC has been calculated for yesterdays competition and applied to players score differentials! This goes against my (and my handicap secretaries) understanding of how things were supposed to work. I can confirm that no other scores were entered yesterday that may have caused a PCC to have been made.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it something that the authorities have changed in "the background". Or is our understanding of how things work simply wrong?
		
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A note in the rule 5.6 interpretations:

 The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			A note in the rule 5.6 interpretations:

The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date.
		
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But that doesn't indicate what scores are used to calculate the PCC?

Did the question not suggest the PCC was calculated using scores entered a day late?


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## rosecott (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			But that doesn't indicate what scores are used to calculate the PCC?

Did the question not suggest the PCC was calculated using scores entered a day late?
		
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Yes, and the note covers that.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Yes, and the note covers that.
		
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The note surely says that the PCC calculated on the day will be used on the scores entered late. It does not say the scores entered late will be used to change the PCC value?

So, the PCC for the day was zero. So, should zero not be used on the late scores?


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## rosecott (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The note surely says that the PCC calculated on the day will be used on the scores entered late. It does not say the scores entered late will be used to change the PCC value?

So, the PCC for the day was zero. So, should zero not be used on the late scores?
		
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No.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			No.
		
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So, let us say 40 scores were entered on the correct day, and the PCC came out at +3.

Then, another 20 scores, that were played on the day, were entered a day late. When you quoted  "*The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date*" I interpreted that the PCC would also be +3 for those late scores.

Are you saying a different PCC could be used for those late scores, depending on what they come out as?


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## nickjdavis (Apr 3, 2021)

Must admit....my logic is the same as Swango's.

The note says..."The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date."

So it is clear that the PCC may be applied retrospectively to scores submitted the following day. That was always my understanding. But the application of a PCC is dependent upon a PCC already having been calculated that will apply to late scores. Given that there were no scores submitted on the actual day (Friday) in question, then surely the PCC for Friday was zero. Therefore no adjustment should be made for the Friday scores submitted on Saturday.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			But that doesn't indicate what scores are used to calculate the PCC? Did the question not suggest the PCC was calculated using scores entered a day late?
		
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rosecott said:



			Yes, and the note covers that.
		
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Sorry but it doesn't. The note you referenced refers solely  to the application of the PCC....not the calculation.


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			The guideline is

Guidance on the Rules G2.1a (1)
		
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G2.1a (1) Authorized Formats of Play
The authorized formats of play that are acceptable for handicap purposes within GB&I are broadly the same as under the CONGU® system. Other countries in the world may have a narrower or wider range of acceptable formats.
Note: It is Ireland’s intention to trial the inclusion of some match play events into handicapping and to also include some Four Ball Better-Ball scores in situations where the returned scores are better than a target expectation for this format of play. Golf Ireland will issue details of these provisions in due course.
It is a requirement in GB&I that players pre-register on the day if they wish their scores to be used for handicapping purposes both for competitions and for General Play. Clubs will need to have procedures in place for this, and with increasing computerization of handicapping they may find that their software will have an inbuilt pre-registration facility.
WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll- ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.
  Page |8

In response to @rosecott problem I find this quite contradictory and could be taken several ways:

If things are broadly in line with the CONGU System did players in this comp previously hand in “Away” cards, I suspect not.

It also states that there is a requirement to pre register - can the fact that you ”sign up” and play in the Alliance count? If so then ALL cards must be taken into account.

“Players have a responsibility to ensure they return cards to home club” Then that means all players, not a selection.


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## jim8flog (Apr 4, 2021)

PCC Calculation

After yesterday I am wondering what it will take for the PCC to go up.

Yesterdays comp had 44 players (approx) (par 71 and rating 70.8)  from memory of a quick scan last night one player had nett par, second place was nett 3 over with most of the field well over nett par lots of nett 80+s and no change to the in the PCC.


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## wjemather (Apr 4, 2021)

It seems that ClubV1 treats unreturned competition scores in the same way that it did under UHS, i.e. 18 net double-bogeys, and sends valid scores through to WHS. This obviously does not follow the WHS Rules of Handicapping. While I wait for an update from Club Systems, I was wondering if anyone else has reported this and what response they got.

Also, the DQ dropdown list is also still not functional - I reported this last November!


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## nickjdavis (Apr 4, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			PCC Calculation

After yesterday I am wondering what it will take for the PCC to go up.

Yesterdays comp had 44 players (approx) (par 71 and rating 70.8)  from memory of a quick scan last night one player had nett par, second place was nett 3 over with most of the field well over nett par lots of nett 80+s and no change to the in the PCC.
		
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Blimey....our St'ford comp on Friday had 77 entrants winner had 41pts, runner up 40pts, 3rdplace 36pts, then everyone else was 35 or below. PCC was +2 !!!

According to the dot golf site the PCC was calculated based on 26 cards....which 26 cards it doesnt tell you....even allowing for the "rules" as to what cards are considered in the PCC calculation just looking at the cards returned I can see that significantly more cards should have been considered simply by taking into counting the number of cards where a gross score was entered on every hole.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2021)

Anyone found a report on the WHD DB that gives you a report on changes to HI the day after a Q comp.  Cannot be done through the ISV. Tried the Category Members Count Report but just get a never ending turning wheel of fortune.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 7, 2021)

Just entered a general play round for a member, which was played 2 days ago, on Club V1. It now appears on their Club V1 Scoring Record, but says "No" for CDH Submitted. Their WHS Scoring History on the portal does not have this latest score in it yet.

Is this as issue? The reason I ask, is that when players have entered their scores on howdidido, it goes immediately to WHS and shows on their scoring history. WHS, next to their index, has in brackets what their index will be tomorrow once that score is taken into account. So, I was expecting the same for this player when I entered his score in Club V1. Tries to hit "Sync Handicap Details" in Club V1, but it just says No changes were found


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Just entered a general play round for a member, which was played 2 days ago, on Club V1. It now appears on their Club V1 Scoring Record, but says "No" for CDH Submitted. Their WHS Scoring History on the portal does not have this latest score in it yet.

Is this as issue? The reason I ask, is that when players have entered their scores on howdidido, it goes immediately to WHS and shows on their scoring history. WHS, next to their index, has in brackets what their index will be tomorrow once that score is taken into account. So, I was expecting the same for this player when I entered his score in Club V1. Tries to hit "Sync Handicap Details" in Club V1, but it just says No changes were found
		
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I would go to CLUB SYSTEMS support. Interesting to see what they see.


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## IanMcC (Apr 9, 2021)

Can I ask how M&H Secretaries are dealing with people who have signed in for the comp but have not returned a scorecard? To close out the comp on ClubV1 you are asked to give these players a NR. This generates 18 net double bogies on their record, a thing we were requested to avoid. But how else can we register the fact that they did not return a card? Even if DQd for not returning a card in time, the outcome is the same.


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## wjemather (Apr 9, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Can I ask how M&H Secretaries are dealing with people who have signed in for the comp but have not returned a scorecard? To close out the comp on ClubV1 you are asked to give these players a NR. This generates 18 net double bogies on their record, a thing we were requested to avoid. But how else can we register the fact that they did not return a card? Even if DQd for not returning a card in time, the outcome is the same.
		
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Per my above post (#894), I have reported this to Club Systems but still haven't had a response.

Fortunately, we only had 3 failures to return from over 500 cards over the weekend. I simply removed their (incorrect) scores from the WHS Platform and followed up with them later.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Per

Per my above post (#894), I have reported this to Club Systems but still haven't had a response.

Fortunately, we only had 3 failures to return from over 500 cards over the weekend. I simply removed their (incorrect) scores from the WHS Platform and followed up with them later.
		
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This


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## IanMcC (Apr 9, 2021)

So if someone doesnt want an increase in their HI they just bin the card? That seems just as wrong as 18 net double bogies to me.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			So if someone doesnt want an increase in their HI they just bin the card? That seems just as wrong as 18 net double bogies to me.
		
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Action should be taken as they could have well taken another members place or what's to say it was a bad card.  All cards MUST be returned.  I know that the attitude of some is that if they are having a mare then it doesn't matter but it wouldn't take them 2 min to hand their card in as they walk off the course.


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## IanMcC (Apr 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Action should be taken as they could have well taken another members place or what's to say it was a bad card.  All cards MUST be returned.  I know that the attitude of some is that if they are having a mare then it doesn't matter but it wouldn't take them 2 min to hand their card in as they walk off the course.
		
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That is my point exactly. Why should these people have their record of such a round cleared? 18 nett double bogies will do more than having a quiet word and effectively letting them off with it, surely.


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## wjemather (Apr 9, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			So if someone doesnt want an increase in their HI they just bin the card? That seems just as wrong as 18 net double bogies to me.
		
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Their handicap secretary should be applying penalty scores when appropriate. If the intention was to avoid an increase, a penalty score equal to their high differential would be entered.

For my 3 guys: 1 was in a rush and forgot to put his card in so I entered his scores on WHS the following day, and the other 2 got caught in slow play (2.5 hours for 9 holes!) and walked off half way round knowing they wouldn't be able to finish, so no problem.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Action should be taken as they could have well taken another members place or what's to say it was a bad card.  All cards MUST be returned.  I know that the attitude of some is that if they are having a mare then it doesn't matter but it wouldn't take them 2 min to hand their card in as they walk off the course.
		
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I suppose the other issue is, if they hand in card, but walk in on the front 9. Their card could not count for handicap, so action would still need to be taken against this player.


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## wjemather (Apr 9, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			That is my point exactly. Why should these people have their record of such a round cleared? 18 nett double bogies will do more than having a quiet word and effectively letting them off with it, surely.
		
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But they could be seeking to avoid a reduction or even get an increase, in which case 18 net-doubles will suit them nicely. In this case a penalty score equal to their low differential should be entered.


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## IanMcC (Apr 9, 2021)

wjemather said:



			But they could be seeking to avoid a reduction or even get an increase, in which case 18 net-doubles will suit them nicely. In this case a penalty score equal to their low differential should be entered.
		
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Is there any documentary evidence that this should happen? The only thing I can find is a CONGU Advice sheet dated 19th January 2019 saying that we shouldnt enter 18 net double bogies. Nothing to say what we really should do.


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## wjemather (Apr 9, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Is there any documentary evidence that this should happen? The only thing I can find is a CONGU Advice sheet dated 19th January 2019 saying that we shouldnt enter 18 net double bogies. Nothing to say what we really should do.
		
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Yes, the CONGU guidance has a section on penalty scores and their application. (G7.1b, page 19)


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## IanMcC (Apr 9, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, the CONGU guidance has a section on penalty scores and their application. (G7.1b, page 19)
		
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Thats perfect, thanks.


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## wjemather (Apr 9, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I suppose the other issue is, if they hand in card, but walk in on the front 9. Their card could not count for handicap, so action would still need to be taken against this player.
		
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We also had one walk-off with injury after 7 holes and they handed their card in. ClubV1 didn't really deal with this satisfactorily either; having entered 11 "NS" hole scores, ClubV1 still attempted to send the score through to CDH but thankfully it was rejected.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2021)

wjemather said:



			We also had one walk-off with injury after 7 holes and they handed their card in. ClubV1 didn't really deal with this satisfactorily either; having entered 11 "NS" hole scores, ClubV1 still attempted to send the score through to CDH but thankfully it was rejected.
		
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As it was an 18 hole comp and the minimum holes weren't completed that might be the reason and it, hopefully, is written into the software.


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## wjemather (Apr 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As it was an 18 hole comp and the minimum holes weren't completed that might be the reason and it, hopefully, is written into the software.
		
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ClubV1 just says "It was not possible to submit the score to the CDH. Please refresh to view the raw response." but no response gets logged, so who knows. Something informative would be nice!


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## rosecott (Apr 13, 2021)

Anyone else having problems with the WHS platform today? Today's comp scores don't seem to be getting through and I keep getting the "502 Bad Gateway" page when I'm on and try to do something.


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## wjemather (Apr 13, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Anyone else having problems with the WHS platform today? Today's comp scores don't seem to be getting through and I keep getting the "502 Bad Gateway" page when I'm on and try to do something.
		
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Yeah - it's been like it all afternoon.


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2021)

Yep busy seniors day  haven’t been able to allocate CDH No either


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

Club V1 and Signing In on Today's Golf

When I do this, for example to Sign into a competition, when I leave the page Howdidido seems to log me out, and goes to the sign in page. Does it do this to anyone else? I can click on my shortcut again (or favourites list) to get back in, automatically signed in. But, it seems a bit of an annoying glitch


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Club V1 and Signing In on Today's Golf

When I do this, for example to Sign into a competition, when I leave the page Howdidido seems to log me out, and goes to the sign in page. Does it do this to anyone else? I can click on my shortcut again (or favourites list) to get back in, automatically signed in. But, it seems a bit of an annoying glitch
		
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HDID doesn't log me out.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2021)

We have a new member who has been unable to register with howdidido. I spoke to him on the phone for over half an hour, and sounded like his IT skills are less than average. It seems like he must have registered before, but does not know how, as it will not let him reregister with his e-mail address (although Club V1 indicated this member has not registered with howdidido). Anyway, another Committee member has done a password reset request for him, and asked him to forward the e-mail he gets. His was response was "how do I forward an e-mail".

Meanwhile, a male member has contacted me, saying it does not allow selection of red tees for general play rounds. Had to go through a round of e-mails to realise he was asking because his wife could not register rounds. After messaging other female Committee representatives to check this, they confirmed it was OK, they could select red tees. So, I had to then go back to the chap to investigate further. Turns out he was logged in as himself, and because he had no option for red tees then that he felt meant his wife wouldn't (even though I indicated this in the very first round of correspondence). Once I told him his wife had to log into her own account, he was then pleased to tell me she had the option for red tees.

I have also had to chase the chap who no returned in yesterday's competition, and explain to him the importance of submitting the card.

I have a day job. It is lunch time and golf has kept me busy all day. Nightmare.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We have a new member who has been unable to register with howdidido. I spoke to him on the phone for over half an hour, and sounded like his IT skills are less than average. It seems like he must have registered before, but does not know how, as it will not let him reregister with his e-mail address (although Club V1 indicated this member has not registered with howdidido). Anyway, another Committee member has done a password reset request for him, and asked him to forward the e-mail he gets. His was response was "how do I forward an e-mail".

Meanwhile, a male member has contacted me, saying it does not allow selection of red tees for general play rounds. Had to go through a round of e-mails to realise he was asking because his wife could not register rounds. After messaging other female Committee representatives to check this, they confirmed it was OK, they could select red tees. So, I had to then go back to the chap to investigate further. Turns out he was logged in as himself, and because he had no option for red tees then that he felt meant his wife wouldn't (even though I indicated this in the very first round of correspondence). Once I told him his wife had to log into her own account, he was then pleased to tell me she had the option for red tees.

I have also had to chase the chap who no returned in yesterday's competition, and explain to him the importance of submitting the card.

I have a day job. It is lunch time and golf has kept me busy all day. Nightmare.
		
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Im spending a good two hours a day on this and like you I’m the unpaid numpty that members think they can ring all day and night.

Had a bit of a moment on the course yesterday when a member came across and asked me to input his casual card when I had finished, asked him if he had pre registered (we have the procedure on inter web and notice boards) he said he hadnt . Quite a picture as I ripped his card up in front of him and then pointed him in the direction of things to read.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im spending a good two hours a day on this and like you I’m the unpaid numpty that members think they can ring all day and night.

Had a bit of a moment on the course yesterday when a member came across and asked me to input his casual card when I had finished, asked him if he had pre registered (we have the procedure on inter web and notice boards) *he said he had*. Quite a picture as I ripped his card up in front of him and then pointed him in the direction of things to read.
		
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Do you mean he hadn't? Otherwise it seems like quite a harsh reaction haha

No doubt I'll find another dozen physical general play cards at the club tomorrow, where members expect me to put them in the system, with none of them having pre-registered. Then I've to go through another round of e-mails explaining to them why I will not be submitting them.

Pretty much the only thing on our noticeboard at the moment is a notice on how to submit general play scores, and how to fill in a scorecard (after they've all just been put back up after refurbishment). E-mails had been sent out pre and post WHS. I'm convinced many do not bother with noticeboards or check e-mail.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you mean he hadn't? Otherwise it seems like quite a harsh reaction haha

No doubt I'll find another dozen physical general play cards at the club tomorrow, where members expect me to put them in the system, with none of them having pre-registered. Then I've to go through another round of e-mails explaining to them why I will not be submitting them.

Pretty much the only thing on our noticeboard at the moment is a notice on how to submit general play scores, and how to fill in a scorecard (after they've all just been put back up after refurbishment). E-mails had been sent out pre and post WHS. I'm convinced many do not bother with noticeboards or check e-mail.
		
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Yes sorry “he hadn’t “.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 17, 2021)

I put in a score for a member via Club V1 (1st card for handicap). Once I saved it, noticed I made an error. So, I edited the score in Club V1 and saved it again. However, on WHS his score was sent straight across. But, the score remained the initial entry, not the corrected entry. So, I'm assuming editing a score on Club V1 is meaningless, it must be done directly on WHS Portal?

Also, when I have a new member who starts sending in cards, on Club V1 I will assign them a CDH, and their record is then created straight away on WHS. However, I notice it does not pass their e-mail address and DOB to WHS, despite having them in Club V1. So, they need to be manually entered. Not sure if that is intentional.


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I put in a score for a member via Club V1 (1st card for handicap). Once I saved it, noticed I made an error. So, I edited the score in Club V1 and saved it again. However, on WHS his score was sent straight across. But, the score remained the initial entry, not the corrected entry. So, I'm assuming editing a score on Club V1 is meaningless, it must be done directly on WHS Portal?

Also, when I have a new member who starts sending in cards, on Club V1 I will assign them a CDH, and their record is then created straight away on WHS. However, I notice it does not pass their e-mail address and DOB to WHS, despite having them in Club V1. So, they need to be manually entered. Not sure if that is intentional.
		
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Not heard of email or DOB transferring across or noticed.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 17, 2021)

Penalty Score: I am entering a penalty score for a guy who couldn't be bothered going back to the tee on the 15th in Thursday's medal, so just picked up and didn't hand in card. 

Looking at the CONGU advice on penalty scores, it doesn't strictly state this situation. I assume I should follow the "Possible attempt to keep handicap low" guideline, and enter a penalty score equal to his current highest score in last 20? I know he wasn't trying to keep his handicap low, he just didn't realise he had to hand it in. But, it seems like the most logical penalty score to apply.


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## NearHull (Apr 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Penalty Score: I am entering a penalty score for a guy who couldn't be bothered going back to the tee on the 15th in Thursday's medal, so just picked up and didn't hand in card.

Looking at the CONGU advice on penalty scores, it doesn't strictly state this situation. I assume I should follow the "Possible attempt to keep handicap low" guideline, and enter a penalty score equal to his current highest score in last 20? I know he wasn't trying to keep his handicap low, he just didn't realise he had to hand it in. But, it seems like the most logical penalty score to apply.
		
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I am watching the replies with interest as I do not know the answer.  My guess , for what its worth, is Net Double Bogey for 15 and Net Par for 16,17 and 18.

The H &C Committee noting the failure to return a card with a warning passed to the player that another occurrence may bring sanctions.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Penalty Score: I am entering a penalty score for a guy who couldn't be bothered going back to the tee on the 15th in Thursday's medal, so just picked up and didn't hand in card.

Looking at the CONGU advice on penalty scores, it doesn't strictly state this situation. I assume I should follow the "Possible attempt to keep handicap low" guideline, and enter a penalty score equal to his current highest score in last 20? I know he wasn't trying to keep his handicap low, he just didn't realise he had to hand it in. But, it seems like the most logical penalty score to apply.
		
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Is he a regular NR member, if so then the penalty score rules should come into play. If it’s a one off then a quite chat and as he has completed the min number of holes enter scores as per the WHS advice. I have emailed all members with the consequences of NR cards and the sanctions that can be applied.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 18, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I am watching the replies with interest as I do not know the answer.  My guess , for what its worth, is Net Double Bogey for 15 and Net Par for 16,17 and 18.

The H &C Committee noting the failure to return a card with a warning passed to the player that another occurrence may bring sanctions.
		
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In response to you, and Old Skier

We do not have any of his hole scores, and cannot retrieve them as he binned card (I suppose we could ask him if he can give them from memory, but that doesn't seem right).

I initially looked at CONGU guidance, and initially felt failure to submit card could be associated with "memory" as he was unaware he had to hand it in if be blobbed the competition. However, that would mean the penalty score would need to reflect a gross score of CR+Course Handicap (I.e. reflect current index), and thus it would become one of his top 8 rounds. That is clearly not right. So, even though he wasn't actually trying to keep handicap too low, following the advice for this seemed more appropriate (I.e. penalty score match his worst score in last 20).

He is not a regular NR player. However, i text him the next day to explain why it is important not to NR, and to continue playing even if he blobs a medal hole. He was fine with that, so hopefully he will not do it again.

I suspect I will send this text to a few members over the coming months. We'll formalise the process once players get to grips with WHS basics. I have lightly touched on the importance of not NRing in general communications, but I don't want to scare or confuse members with even more info. Certainly didn't want to threaten potential disciplinary procedures for regular NRs, as it might put people off entering comps when they are struggling to even understand Course and Playing Handicaps


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## Swango1980 (Apr 18, 2021)

Let's hope the MyEG App works today to pre register and enter score for a general play round. It looks like Howdidido is down. Have been unable to get in all morning. Anyone else having issues?


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## upsidedown (Apr 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Let's hope the MyEG App works today to pre register and enter score for a general play round. It looks like Howdidido is down. Have been unable to get in all morning. Anyone else having issues?
		
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Yes same here 🙄


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Let's hope the MyEG App works today to pre register and enter score for a general play round. It looks like Howdidido is down. Have been unable to get in all morning. Anyone else having issues?
		
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Down now, was available earlier.


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## jim8flog (Apr 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			In response to you, and Old Skier

We do not have any of his hole scores, and cannot retrieve them as he binned card (I suppose we could ask him if he can give them from memory, but that doesn't seem right).
		
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Where I play the player marks their own card and the marker keeps the players score in the markers column on their card. We would be able to identify the marker from the booking sheet and could retrieve the scores from that card.

It would be NR for hole 15 and penalty score for holes 17 and 18 if none were were recorded.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Where I play the player marks their own card and the marker keeps the players score in the markers column on their card. We would be able to identify the marker from the booking sheet and could retrieve the scores from that card.

It would be NR for hole 15 and penalty score for holes 17 and 18 if none were were recorded.
		
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We do that for normal comps. But, on a Thursday players just book their own tee time any time of day, and submit score after. So, they are not necessarily playing with another player playing in comp (which he wasn't). But yeah, in normal times we'd have more of a fighting chance on finding his score


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## wjemather (Apr 18, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			In response to you, and Old Skier

We do not have any of his hole scores, and cannot retrieve them as he binned card (I suppose we could ask him if he can give them from memory, but that doesn't seem right).

I initially looked at CONGU guidance, and initially felt failure to submit card could be associated with "memory" as he was unaware he had to hand it in if be blobbed the competition. However, that would mean the penalty score would need to reflect a gross score of CR+Course Handicap (I.e. reflect current index), and thus it would become one of his top 8 rounds. That is clearly not right. So, even though he wasn't actually trying to keep handicap too low, following the advice for this seemed more appropriate (I.e. penalty score match his worst score in last 20).

He is not a regular NR player. However, i text him the next day to explain why it is important not to NR, and to continue playing even if he blobs a medal hole. He was fine with that, so hopefully he will not do it again.

I suspect I will send this text to a few members over the coming months. We'll formalise the process once players get to grips with WHS basics. I have lightly touched on the importance of not NRing in general communications, but I don't want to scare or confuse members with even more info. Certainly didn't want to threaten potential disciplinary procedures for regular NRs, as it might put people off entering comps when they are struggling to even understand Course and Playing Handicaps
		
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There is no need to enter a penalty score in this case. Since you don't know the scores and there was no intention to manipulate the system, simply delete any incorrect score (if one has been sent from your ISV) from his WHS record and issue a reminder.

How many reminders individuals should get before penalty scores start being applied is a matter of judgement for the handicap committee.

Curiously, the only player not to return their score yesterday is the husband of one of our handicap secretaries!


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## nickjdavis (Apr 18, 2021)

Has anybody made ant decisions as to what penalty to apply  when players have "unfulfilled score intents" (i.e. when they've pre-registered a general play round but not gone on to submit the card) and how long you give them to enter their scores?


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Has anybody made ant decisions as to what penalty to apply  when players have "unfulfilled score intents" (i.e. when they've pre-registered a general play round but not gone on to submit the card) and how long you give them to enter their scores?
		
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At the moment I am trying to be more informative than punitive but in the end it will be the same as  a NR and full penalty scores will be applied


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## wjemather (Apr 18, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Has anybody made ant decisions as to what penalty to apply  when players have "unfulfilled score intents" (i.e. when they've pre-registered a general play round but not gone on to submit the card) and how long you give them to enter their scores?
		
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Unless someone is trying to manipulate their handicap (hopefully no-one does this), I'm just issuing reminders at the moment and deleting any intents or bogus scores passed from ClubV1 if the actual scores cannot be determined. Scores should be entered by midnight the same day, so I am following up the following day at the moment.

Except in the case of manipulation, per the guidance, a penalty score with an adjusted gross equal to "_Course Rating + Course Handicap_" will be applied if we get any persistent offenders.


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## Tod1959 (Apr 18, 2021)

what happens when a player legitimately uses the app to submit a general play score for handicapping purposes and their name then appears on the unsatisfied score intent report. What actions are expected of the handicap secretary?


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

Tod1959 said:



			what happens when a player legitimately uses the app to submit a general play score for handicapping purposes and their name then appears on the unsatisfied score intent report. What actions are expected of the handicap secretary?
		
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Could you clarify which app and not familier with the unsatisfied score intent report.


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## Tod1959 (Apr 18, 2021)

England golf app and the report is on the England golf WHS website


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

Tod1959 said:



			England golf app and the report is on the England golf WHS website
		
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I suspect that either the player didn’t select a partner to verify or the partner hasn’t verified the score.


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## Tod1959 (Apr 18, 2021)

haing spoken to the player in question I am assured they followed the apps instructions.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

Tod1959 said:



			haing spoken to the player in question I am assured they followed the apps instructions.
		
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I had a similar experience during testing it the other day and my issue was no/bad connectivity. Could be the issue. I deleted it off the WHS DB and then manually added scores.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 18, 2021)

I tried to use MyEG App today. I selected the course and tees, but it would not let me continue as it said I needed to be near the course. I was on the first tee. I tried several times, no success, it said I was 7km away (which is about as far away as my house).

Now, I am sure GPS on app has worked before, when I used it back end of last year at an away course to check handicap. So, I'm not sure why it wasn't picking me up.

Pity, as I couldn't register via howdidido this morning either as it was down. Luckily I am handicap sec and can input scores via Club V1 after. But, I can imagine it will cause issues for regular members in future if the tech has hiccups every now and then.


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## Tod1959 (Apr 18, 2021)

I don’t think it’s a connectivity issue, but will check. I think it’s more likely the EG have rushed out the technology without undertaking robust resilience testing. I’m also very frustrated at the way EG have erased the app without any real instruction oon how it’s used. theres no way a business critical  system should have been deployed in this way.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

I've had yet another general play round submitted as "Non Qualifying" on howdidido. So, I've had to go into the system and re-enter this score for the player correctly.

Out of my continued frustration, I've e-mailed Club V1 to state that qualifying is no longer a recognised definition as confusing to many club golfers, despite me sending out e-mails and putting notices on noticeboard to select "qualifying". I've asked why acceptable for handicap and not acceptable for handicap cannot be used. I've also brought up the point that surely "General Play Round" would be a better option than "Casual Round", again fitting with WHS.

They have acknowledged the e-mail and said they'd pass it on to the development team. Hopefully it will be something they will change. I hope other clubs send them similar feedback so they act fairly soon.


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## wjemather (Apr 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've had yet another general play round submitted as "Non Qualifying" on howdidido. So, I've had to go into the system and re-enter this score for the player correctly.

Out of my continued frustration, I've e-mailed Club V1 to state that qualifying is no longer a recognised definition as confusing to many club golfers, despite me sending out e-mails and putting notices on noticeboard to select "qualifying". I've asked why acceptable for handicap and not acceptable for handicap cannot be used. I've also brought up the point that surely "General Play Round" would be a better option than "Casual Round", again fitting with WHS.

They have acknowledged the e-mail and said they'd pass it on to the development team. Hopefully it will be something they will change. I hope other clubs send them similar feedback so they act fairly soon.
		
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Given the MyEG app now does a better job, I've disabled HDID for general play/casual rounds until Club Systems get it up to the required level of functionality.

It's been disappointing to see how far CS have fallen behind their competitors in the last 12 months, particularly as far as development goes in getting ClubV1 and HDID fully functional for WHS.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Given the MyEG app now does a better job, I've disabled HDID for general play/casual rounds until Club Systems get it up to the required level of functionality.

It's been disappointing to see how far CS have fallen behind their competitors in the last 12 months, particularly as far as development goes in getting ClubV1 and HDID fully functional for WHS.
		
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My issue with MyEG is that it didn't know my location yesterday, despite being at course, so it was impossible to use.

Now, not ruling out I'm being a numpty. But, I can find no way to find any settings on MyEG to ensure it can access my GPS. But it could before Xmas (when checking handicap at away course) and general phone has location settings on.

Mind you, using howdidido, although you can include marker, I do not believe that marker is ever sent a notification to verify a score? MyEG seems to do that, which is good (except what if your marker is IT illiterate and doesn't verify it?)


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			My issue with MyEG is that it didn't know my location yesterday, despite being at course, so it was impossible to use.

Now, not ruling out I'm being a numpty. But, I can find no way to find any settings on MyEG to ensure it can access my GPS. But it could before Xmas (when checking handicap at away course) and general phone has location settings on.

Mind you, using howdidido, although you can include marker, I do not believe that marker is ever sent a notification to verify a score? MyEG seems to do that, which is good (except what if your marker is IT illiterate and doesn't verify it?)
		
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EG is good but does require decent access, either to the interweb or via 4G, we have neither unless we are actually in the clubhouse.

Had several cases of markers not being able to work out how to verify the score.


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## wjemather (Apr 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			EG is good but does require decent access, either to the interweb or via 4G, we have neither unless we are actually in the clubhouse.

Had several cases of markers not being able to work out how to verify the score.
		
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I hear that EG will be issuing a user guide soon - no idea why they thought it was acceptable to release the app without one.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 19, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I hear that EG will be issuing a user guide soon - no idea why they thought it was acceptable to release the app without one.
		
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Before they write a user guide, maybe they should first stop using the term "marker" when they actually mean "tee". That would stop some basic confusion....had two people now ask me why, when they wanted to select the person who would be marking their card, that it only gave the options of White or Yellow and not any players names!!!!!


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## wjemather (Apr 19, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Before they write a user guide, maybe they should first stop using the term "marker" when they actually mean "tee". That would stop some basic confusion....had two people now ask me why, when they wanted to select the person who would be marking their card, that it only gave the options of White or Yellow and not any players names!!!!!
		
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Of course they mean "tee marker", but I presume the abbreviated terminology comes from the New Zealand developers as just "marker" seems to be used throughout their systems.


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## Tod1959 (Apr 19, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I hear that EG will be issuing a user guide soon - no idea why they thought it was acceptable to release the app without one.
		
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Good idea. Deploy the app, get people frustrated and saying the app is rubbish, the issue the user guide....priceless.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 20, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Of course they mean "tee marker", but I presume the abbreviated terminology comes from the New Zealand developers as just "marker" seems to be used throughout their systems.
		
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Of course they do.....but when the vast majority of golfers have for years understood the term "marker" as being the person who is marking their card it is nonsensical to re-purpose a term that is already commonly understood.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 21, 2021)

Question about the PCC calculation....

For each day is a PCC calculated for each set of tees.....or is just one PCC calculated and applied to all tees?

Looking at results so far where a PCC has been calculated it appears to be the latter. Only noticed it as only 4 ladies played in a particular mixed comp (so not enough players to do a PCC comp as defined on p55 of the Rules of H'capping) off the red tees, but the same PCC was applied to their scores as it was to the 66 male players who had played off the whites.

Only conclusion is that the PCC is applied globally across all players, unlike in the old CONGU scheme where separate CSS calculations were done for men and ladies.


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## rulefan (Apr 21, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Question about the PCC calculation....

For each day is a PCC calculated for each set of tees.....or is just one PCC calculated and applied to all tees?

Looking at results so far where a PCC has been calculated it appears to be the latter. Only noticed it as only 4 ladies played in a particular mixed comp (so not enough players to do a PCC comp as defined on p55 of the Rules of H'capping) off the red tees, but the same PCC was applied to their scores as it was to the 66 male players who had played off the whites.

Only conclusion is that the PCC is applied globally across all players, unlike in the old CONGU scheme where separate CSS calculations were done for men and ladies.
		
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It is normally applied globally but exceptionally it may be applied to certain competitions or spanning certain times of the day. See Rule 5.6 Interpretations


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## nickjdavis (Apr 21, 2021)

rulefan said:



			It is normally applied globally but exceptionally it may be applied to certain competitions or spanning certain times of the day. See Rule 5.6 Interpretations
		
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cheers...i see point 5 says ....determine how much harder or easier the _golf course_ played that day.

I guess _golf course_ covers all different tees.


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## rulefan (Apr 22, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			cheers...i see point 5 says ....determine how much harder or easier the _golf course_ played that day.

I guess _golf course_ covers all different tees.
		
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As does the weather.


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## IanMcC (Apr 22, 2021)

I have a member (from Wales Golf) who is visiting Scotland next week. He is playing Archerfield, St Andrews Old and New. He has asked me to update his record if he sends me photos of the cards. I am unable to drill down to the point where I can enter hole by hole scores on a Scottish Course. I tried the Old Course, and had all the course details. It recognises the course (Blue tees/71.4/129 rating) but the individual holes do not come up to enter scores. Anyone any ideas how I can help him?


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 22, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've had yet another general play round submitted as "Non Qualifying" on howdidido. So, I've had to go into the system and re-enter this score for the player correctly.

Out of my continued frustration, I've e-mailed Club V1 to state that qualifying is no longer a recognised definition as confusing to many club golfers, despite me sending out e-mails and putting notices on noticeboard to select "qualifying". I've asked why acceptable for handicap and not acceptable for handicap cannot be used. I've also brought up the point that surely "General Play Round" would be a better option than "Casual Round", again fitting with WHS.

They have acknowledged the e-mail and said they'd pass it on to the development team. Hopefully it will be something they will change. I hope other clubs send them similar feedback so they act fairly soon.
		
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I sent them a similar note. I also suggested they drop the Qual / non-Qual completely as why would you enter scores if you didn't want them to count to handicap?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 22, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I sent them a similar note. I also suggested they drop the Qual / non-Qual completely as why would you enter scores if you didn't want them to count to handicap?
		
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Yeah, I did make that point as well. Just seen several more players have entered non qualifying scores in the last 2 days. I'm not chasing them anymore, they can contact me. They've had emails and it is on Noticeboard, so too bad.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I sent them a similar note. I also suggested they drop the Qual / non-Qual completely as why would you enter scores if you didn't want them to count to handicap?
		
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Spoke to them yesterday and they are looking at this. Obviously they have many requests for changes/additions to the current software version, they have to prioritise and do what’s best for the business


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## IanMcC (Apr 23, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I have a member (from Wales Golf) who is visiting Scotland next week. He is playing Archerfield, St Andrews Old and New. He has asked me to update his record if he sends me photos of the cards. I am unable to drill down to the point where I can enter hole by hole scores on a Scottish Course. I tried the Old Course, and had all the course details. It recognises the course (Blue tees/71.4/129 rating) but the individual holes do not come up to enter scores. Anyone any ideas how I can help him?
		
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Wales Golf have helped me out on this. I cannot add hole by hole scores, but I can add his adjusted gross score to his record. I need to know the course, course rating, slope rating and par. Id imagine this is the same for someone from England Golf playing in Scotland too.


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## rosecott (Apr 23, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Wales Golf have helped me out on this. I cannot add hole by hole scores, but I can add his adjusted gross score to his record. I need to know the course, course rating, slope rating and par. Id imagine this is the same for someone from England Golf playing in Scotland too.
		
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Seems like Scottish Golf is at odds again with the rest of UK. WHS allows us to do hole by hole scores on Irish and Welsh courses.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 23, 2021)

Had a message from the club regarding a glitch with scores recorded as NR or NS on a hole and asking us to record a 0 score.

Is this a problem on WHS generally or is this an issue with our clubs PSI terminal? Hoping one of our experts could shed some light on this.

Comp results from Wednesday comp have been published but there has been no Handicap Record updates.


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Had a message from the club regarding a glitch with scores recorded as NR or NS on a hole and asking us to record a 0 score.

Is this a problem on WHS generally or is this an issue with our clubs PSI terminal? Hoping one of our experts could shed some light on this.

Comp results from Wednesday comp have been published but there has been no Handicap Record updates.
		
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Medal I presume.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Medal I presume.
		
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Stableford in this case


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## apj0524 (Apr 23, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Had a message from the club regarding a glitch with scores recorded as NR or NS on a hole and asking us to record a 0 score.

Is this a problem on WHS generally or is this an issue with our clubs PSI terminal? Hoping one of our experts could shed some light on this.

Comp results from Wednesday comp have been published but there has been no Handicap Record updates.
		
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On IG we have to enter a 0 for a NR and X for a NS.  Many players seem not to not understand the difference between the two and and are entering NS when they walk in after 15 holes in an 18 holes comp, rather than NR


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Stableford in this case
		
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0 then, no different than before


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			0 then, no different than before
		
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Cheers.

Strange thing is the comp results were published yesterday but Handicap Records have not been updated.


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Cheers.

Strange thing is the comp results were published yesterday but Handicap Records have not been updated.
		
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Im not sure if there is an IG issue here as I played in an open at a club using IG on Wed and still had no scores added to the WHS DB.


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			On IG we have to enter a 0 for a NR and X for a NS.  Many players seem not to not understand the difference between the two and and are entering NS when they walk in after 15 holes in an 18 holes comp, rather than NR
		
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I don't think V1 has the facility to differentiate.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure if there is an IG issue here as I played in an open at a club using IG on Wed and still had no scores added to the WHS DB.
		
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The score is showing under 'my rounds' on IG but not on my Handicap Record so a WHS issue?


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

saving_par said:



			The score is showing under 'my rounds' on IG but not on my Handicap Record so a WHS issue?
		
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Depends if IG is uploading to WHS, Club Systems definitely did.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Depends if IG is uploading to WHS, Club Systems definitely did.
		
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Certainly did after the weekend comp, will see what happens this weekend.


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## wjemather (Apr 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I don't think V1 has the facility to differentiate.
		
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ClubV1 does differentiate. For player entry (psi or hdid), there is a prompt to confirm if the hole was played. For back office entry, "0"/"*" are entered for NR/NS.


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## rulefan (Apr 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			ClubV1 does differentiate. For player entry (psi or hdid), there is a prompt to confirm if the hole was played. For back office entry, "0"/"*" are entered for NR/NS.
		
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Thanks for the information. I haven't tried it but I got the impression from other posts that the option wasn't there.

PS What about the app?


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## wjemather (Apr 24, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Thanks for the information. I haven't tried it but I got the impression from other posts that the option wasn't there.

PS What about the app?
		
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Same as psi/hdid.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 24, 2021)

Is Club V1 talking to WHS today? Just put in 3 cards for a new member on Club V1, and these are not being sent to WHS (although setting up the CDH on Club V1 added the member to WHS, so that bit worked)


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## upsidedown (Apr 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Is Club V1 talking to WHS today? Just put in 3 cards for a new member on Club V1, and these are not being sent to WHS (although setting up the CDH on Club V1 added the member to WHS, so that bit worked)
		
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Scores from our comp today are showing on WHS from Club V1


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## Swango1980 (Apr 24, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Scores from our comp today are showing on WHS from Club V1
		
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I've just entered a score for another member, that worked fine. But the 3 scores for this new member simply will not go through. The only difference is that the member I am having issues with is a lady member off red tees.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've just entered a score for another member, that worked fine. But the 3 scores for this new member simply will not go through. The only difference is that the member I am having issues with is a lady member off red tees.
		
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I presume they have CDH No's


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## jim8flog (Apr 24, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			On IG we have to enter a 0 for a NR and X for a NS.  Many players seem not to not understand the difference between the two and and are entering NS when they walk in after 15 holes in an 18 holes comp, rather than NR
		
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 We have IG and our PSI screens show both NR and NS. Is it the app that does not have both?

We have told players on several occasions which button to use and there is a note beside one of the PSI screens but I still hear of players assuming NS means no score as in NR.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I presume they have CDH No's
		
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Yeah, first think I did was assign CDH. That is what created her profile on WHS. But the scores would not get sent through once I entered them.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, first think I did was assign CDH. That is what created her profile on WHS. But the scores would not get sent through once I entered them.
		
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Stupid question but I presume you tried a sync handicap details?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Stupid question but I presume you tried a sync handicap details?
		
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After continuing to refresh the page, I went to Golf - Casual Rounds. I found the rounds for this player and hit Retry for resending to CDH. But, it said it could not be done.

I then clicked on Sync Handicap Details, but it just said No Changes were found.


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			After continuing to refresh the page, I went to Golf - Casual Rounds. I found the rounds for this player and hit Retry for resending to CDH. But, it said it could not be done.

I then clicked on Sync Handicap Details, but it just said No Changes were found.
		
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I had this and it went overnight


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## Swango1980 (Apr 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I had this and it went overnight
		
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Sadly the problem persists today


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Sadly the problem persists today
		
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Check the history tab in her record on the WHS DB and check it shows your club as the home club.


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2021)

I am noticing a problem with IG, some of our players have played Q comps at away courses this week and no scores from the clubs played were uploaded to the WHS DB, both clubs are IG. Anyone else had an issue.

Am I also write in thinking that as soon as a score is posted it should go straight through and be displayed on the WHS DB before a comp is closed?


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## rosecott (Apr 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I am noticing a problem with IG, some of our players have played Q comps at away courses this week and no scores from the clubs played were uploaded to the WHS DB, both clubs are IG. Anyone else had an issue.

Am I also write in thinking that as soon as a score is posted it should go straight through and be displayed on the WHS DB before a comp is closed?
		
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Don't know about Club V1, but that is what happens with Handicapmaster. Scores go to WHS almost as soon as the player enters the score and WHS shows any likely change to HI for the following day.


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## upsidedown (Apr 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I am noticing a problem with IG, some of our players have played Q comps at away courses this week and no scores from the clubs played were uploaded to the WHS DB, both clubs are IG. Anyone else had an issue.

Am I also write in thinking that as soon as a score is posted it should go straight through and be displayed on the WHS DB before a comp is closed?
		
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Yes goes through straight away from Clubv1 to WHS, as happened last two times I've played.


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2021)

The question was about IG specifically, sorry for any confusion


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## jim8flog (Apr 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The question was about IG specifically, sorry for any confusion
		
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 I do not know about away scores but certainly our home comp scores go straight to database on that day (IG) before the comp is closed.


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I do not know about away scores but certainly our home comp scores go straight to database on that day (IG) before the comp is closed.
		
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Good to know, looks like more time spent with EG and county HC rep tomorrow.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Check the history tab in her record on the WHS DB and check it shows your club as the home club.
		
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Just to update, problem resolved. It was a numpty issue in a way, but not one I was expecting. When I "Assigned CDH" on Club V1, it generated her a CDH on WHS as expected. I entered the e-mail address and DOB as required. The issue was, WHS had created her as a Male golfer.I just assumed that, because she is a female on Club V1, then WHS would set her as a Female golfer. Once I updated this on WHS, the scores were sent straight through


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## 2blue (Apr 26, 2021)

I seem to remember reading somewhere on a Post that WHS expects that any 'Acceptable Rounds' associated with a Club eg. Roll-ups occupying specifically allocated Tee-times, Societies organised within the Club etc. would automatically be accepted as being 'Pre-registered rounds' & cards be required to be returned.
Can anyone point me the Section in WHS where this is a requirement, please?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 26, 2021)

2blue said:



			I seem to remember reading somewhere on a Post that WHS expects that any 'Acceptable Rounds' associated with a Club eg. Roll-ups occupying specifically allocated Tee-times, Societies organised within the Club etc. would automatically be accepted as being 'Pre-registered rounds' & cards be required to be returned.
Can anyone point me the Section in WHS where this is a requirement, please?
		
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Page 29 on WHS Manual (i.e. 2.1a iii)

However, there are plenty of members at our club who meet up fairly regularly for a social round of golf / roll up. We do not insist they must submit scores, and there would be no way to police it, unless you got them to book and sign in just like a regular club competition.

As a club, we have also arranged several weekend roll ups, to help integrate the many new members, while giving all members an easy way to book a round without worrying about finding playing partners. We are not asking anyone to submit their scores for handicap. It is just a friendly round of golf. If anyone wishes to hand in a General Play round, then they are free to do so.


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure if there is an IG issue here as I played in an open at a club using IG on Wed and still had no scores added to the WHS DB.
		
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Not sure it is.

Our comp from last Wednesday is missing on Club V1 but the WHS system appears to have updated correctly and handicaps changed.


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## Old Skier (Apr 26, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Not sure it is.

Our comp from last Wednesday is missing on Club V1 but the WHS system appears to have updated correctly and handicaps changed.
		
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Something strange going on. We had a league match away yesterday and 4 of the 5 players scores returned to the WHS DB fine, one missing.


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## rulefan (Apr 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Something strange going on. We had a league match away yesterday and 4 of the 5 players scores returned to the WHS DB fine, one missing.
		
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Why would match scores be on the WHS?


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Why would match scores be on the WHS?
		
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Because of the way we run our league, Q stableford, best 4 of 5.


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## rulefan (Apr 27, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Because of the way we run our league, Q stableford, best 4 of 5.
		
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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

I'm hoping the MyEG App stays stable, because I'm starting to think Club V1 is barely fit for purpose.

We had a competition yesterday. Scores have been entered, competition closed. Yet, the results have not been published to howdidido, and handicaps have not been updated. So, if any player had a competition today, and used howdidido to sign in, they'd be given the wrong handicap (My handicap on howdidido is 9.1, on MyEG is 9.5).

Following on from the fiasco a weekend or so ago, where howdidido was down and players could not get into it at all to sign in.


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## jim8flog (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm hoping the MyEG App stays stable, because I'm starting to think Club V1 is barely fit for purpose.

We had a competition yesterday. Scores have been entered, competition closed. Yet, the results have not been published to howdidido, and handicaps have not been updated. So, if any player had a competition today, and used howdidido to sign in, they'd be given the wrong handicap (My handicap on howdidido is 9.1, on MyEG is 9.5).

Following on from the fiasco a weekend or so ago, where howdidido was down and players could not get into it at all to sign in.
		
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Surely a players handicap is what is quoted on EG (in England) before play regardless of what another system says. Although I fully appreciate what this means to competition/ handicap secretaries.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Surely a players handicap is what is quoted on EG (in England) before play regardless of what another system says. Although I fully appreciate what this means to competition/ handicap secretaries.
		
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That is correct. But, as players Sign In to competitions using howdidido, where it tells them their Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap, are we now to tell them to ALSO check the MyEG App just in case their handicap is different on that? I guess we may have to if this ever comes up and bites them on the backside. It is just another issue that arises when we rely more heavily on the tech.


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm hoping the MyEG App stays stable, because I'm starting to think Club V1 is barely fit for purpose.

We had a competition yesterday. Scores have been entered, competition closed. Yet, the results have not been published to howdidido, and handicaps have not been updated. So, if any player had a competition today, and used howdidido to sign in, they'd be given the wrong handicap (My handicap on howdidido is 9.1, on MyEG is 9.5).

Following on from the fiasco a weekend or so ago, where howdidido was down and players could not get into it at all to sign in.
		
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Has anyone checked the WiFi connection at your club, this was an issue with us and was purely down to the WiFi


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Has anyone checked the WiFi connection at your club, this was an issue with us and was purely down to the WiFi
		
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It has updated now, seemed to go through at around 10am today.


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## jim8flog (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			That is correct. But, as players Sign In to competitions using howdidido, where it tells them their Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap, are we now to tell them to ALSO check the MyEG App just in case their handicap is different on that? I guess we may have to if this ever comes up and bites them on the backside. It is just another issue that arises when we rely more heavily on the tech.
		
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On a very personal note my habit has become to check EG the next day if I have submitted an acceptable score. It is something we advised players to do in our WHS briefings. 

So far though I have had to show many how to do it on the PSI screen.  Probably like many a person who  set up a clubs briefings and notices you fairly quickly learn just how many have not read any of it and expect to be shown it just before they go out to play. I got a bit tearse on the tee the other day because so many players had come to me to ask how things worked such that I nearly missed my tee time. One guy was actually stood next to the briefing notice and example card when he asked me.


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2021)

I'm sure that this has been asked before but there so many questions on WHS I just am asking to save loads of looking back 

Our Captains newsletter is talking about scores in club swindles being needing to be entered. Like most swindles they rarely hole out so, in that case, are they bound to put scores in or will swindles be required to amend their gimmee's and hole out?


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure that this has been asked before but there so many questions on WHS I just am asking to save loads of looking back

Our Captains newsletter is talking about scores in club swindles being needing to be entered. Like most swindles they rarely hole out so, in that case, are they bound to put scores in or will swindles be required to amend their gimmee's and hole out?
		
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It is the Committee's job to decide if regular competitions organised by bodies other than the Committee are eligible for handicap purposes. If so, they must be played strictly to the Rules of Golf. That therefore precludes gimees and advice between partners (if they are playing in team format).
I can see the attraction of encouraging people to return more scores but I fear adherence to the RoG will be sacrificed.


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## chrisd (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			It is the Committee's job to decide if regular competitions organised by bodies other than the Committee are eligible for handicap purposes. If so, they must be played strictly to the Rules of Golf. That therefore precludes gimees and advice between partners (if they are playing in team format).
I can see the attraction of encouraging people to return more scores but I fear adherence to the RoG will be sacrificed.
		
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Thanks for that rulefan - so it begs the question , what are most clubs doing?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Thanks for that rulefan - so it begs the question , what are most clubs doing?
		
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We are not asking any members to submit scores from their regular roll ups. They arrange those themselves, and it would be a nightmare for us to police. We wouldn't know who is playing, or who failed to return a score. 

It also feels like the club could be pressuring members to officially submit scores, which from experience I find many members do not always like. Some relax more if they can just go out play with their mates and not worry about submitting a score, good or bad.

However, they are welcome to submit general play rounds if they want their score to count towards handicap. That can be done on an individual basis


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Thanks for that rulefan - so it begs the question , what are most clubs doing?
		
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I don't know about other clubs but we are talking to some internal groups to see a) if they wish to be included and b) if they are prepared to provide proper supervisory processes. No takers so far.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure that this has been asked before but there so many questions on WHS I just am asking to save loads of looking back

Our Captains newsletter is talking about scores in club swindles being needing to be entered. Like most swindles they rarely hole out so, in that case, are they bound to put scores in or will swindles be required to amend their gimmee's and hole out?
		
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We are not putting pressure on those that organise roll ups outside of the clubs organisation.  The HC committee has though said that if people wish to submit cards then players must make sure the RoG are followed.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 1, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I don't know about other clubs but we are talking to some internal groups to see a) if they wish to be included and b) if they are prepared to provide proper supervisory processes. No takers so far.
		
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We have one very organised group (and several who are not). The very organised group allow their players to submit scores / cards if they wish but it is not compulsary. The organiser collates the physical cards and returns them to me after checking.

We had over 260 General Play rounds last month - all scores were entered on-line and we had 46 queries / failures. Mainly with people trialing the system, several who select the wrong course / tees and several who chose a non-qualifying round (Club V1 issue). Will monitor going forward as the number of issues is a real pain.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 1, 2021)

We have had our first away score processed via the EG App. The only reason I know is that I was looking through the reports in the EG Platform and notice the snappily named "Unsatisfied Score Intends" report and noticed it their as an error. We sorted the issue as the marker had not authorised the score and it now is included in the players record.

My concern is that if it had not been in error how would I have even known a score had been lodged? There appears no report for away scores on either the EG Platform or Club V1 so how would we know unless they happen to return a physical card (which they are supposed to do according to our procedures)?

Or do I just need to chill and ignore such things?????????


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

There is a daily report on the WHS DB showing daily scores entered which includes ALL scores including comps.


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## Swango1980 (May 1, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We have had our first away score processed via the EG App. The only reason I know is that I was looking through the reports in the EG Platform and notice the snappily named "Unsatisfied Score Intends" report and noticed it their as an error. We sorted the issue as the marker had not authorised the score and it now is included in the players record.

My concern is that if it had not been in error how would I have even known a score had been lodged? There appears no report for away scores on either the EG Platform or Club V1 so how would we know unless they happen to return a physical card (which they are supposed to do according to our procedures)?

Or do I just need to chill and ignore such things?????????
		
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Honestly, I think I will ignore most of it. I have no idea what is happening via MyEG App. I know a few have used it. More have used howdidido, probably about 20 rounds signed in, no score entered. By word of mouth heard some had submitted scores from their match play game. Many signed in one minute before score entry. Many no physical cards ever been handed in, or sent electronically. All happening, and updating player handicaps at will (or not for no returns).

I've given up worrying about it. Members can do what they like, I don't have the time to chase them or start issuing out warnings. If there are any complaints about anything dodgy, other players can report it and we'll look into it. But, WHS and the tech either requires pure trust in member integrity, awareness of handicap rules and no silly score entry errors, or a full time member of staff or team to regularly / daily check everything that has been registered and chase players if required.


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## nickjdavis (May 1, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We have had our first away score processed via the EG App. The only reason I know is that I was looking through the reports in the EG Platform and notice the snappily named "Unsatisfied Score Intends" report and noticed it their as an error. We sorted the issue as the marker had not authorised the score and it now is included in the players record.

My concern is that if it had not been in error how would I have even known a score had been lodged? There appears no report for away scores on either the EG Platform or Club V1 so how would we know unless they happen to return a physical card (which they are supposed to do according to our procedures)?

Or do I just need to chill and ignore such things?????????
		
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Similarly on H'master there is nothing to flag up if an away GP score has been submitted via the App.....you just dont know unless you actively go on to the DotGolf WHS site and look at the report that shows you the daily score submissions....then you can go searching for cards if you so desire.

Personally I cannot see that returning of general play cards for committee verification is a viable process going forward. We've seen a tenfold increase in general play scores submitted in the last three weeks compared to the old "supplementary" system and expect the number of scores submitted to increase with wider distribution of the app. We don't have someone permanently based at the club every day to process cards and verify scores and will not be able to cope with the volume if we are mandated that we must validate all GP scores.

I wonder what EG plan to do with regard the returning of scorecards for their Nomad system? They target 125,000 golfers in 5 years time to be members of the scheme. If every member were to submit just 3 cards a year (like you had to in the old days to keep your handicap alive) then that would be 375,000 cards returned...either physically or via email. That's over 1000 cards a day. No one is going to be able to process that sort of return. Like-wise it is simply unreasonable to expect committees to validate every general play card that is submitted via an App.

The WHS FAQ's that now exist on the EG website actually confusingly instruct players not to return a score to their club if they have already entered it via the app!!! See page 5 on the document that can be downloaded from World Handicap System App - Member FAQs - England Golf 

As a conclusion from the above, we have taken the decision that we will not be requesting physical cards be submitted for general play if the score has been submitted via the app and attested to by another player. We will use the reports available in our Handicapping software to highlight players who have rapidly improving or worsening indexes and then investigate their overall records to see if any misdemeanours are afoot. 

One positive thing we've seen in the last few days is that the number of "lingering" unsatisfied score intents does seem to be reducing...especially after we highlighted to our members that the person they were nominating as their marker also needed to be running the EG app so they could attest there score.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is a daily report on the WHS DB showing daily scores entered which includes ALL scores including comps.
		
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I'm contemplating having to review these reports daily and then decide what to do.

If I were so inclined I would be heading for my drinks cupboard to ease the pain.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is a daily report on the WHS DB showing daily scores entered which includes ALL scores including comps.
		
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This only seems to be for the home club as the selection criteria are for our courses - not away.


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## 2blue (May 1, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I don't know about other clubs but we are talking to some internal groups to see a) if they wish to be included and b) if they are prepared to provide proper supervisory processes. No takers so far.
		
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It really does make you ask the question...  "Why would you not want your scores to count towards your handicap?"
The replies/reasons/excuses can be endless but in the end it really is just a measure of where your game is, so think of it as that & perhaps, time to stop being so precious.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			This only seems to be for the home club as the selection criteria are for our courses - not away.
		
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The report states “all courses” so I assumed it included away courses. Unfortunately the card I did away hit a glitch with IG and I’m still waiting for them to return the card So I can’t check.


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## rulefan (May 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The report states “all courses” so I assumed it included away courses. Unfortunately the card I did away hit a glitch with IG and I’m still waiting for them to return the card So I can’t check.
		
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"all courses" is often used when "all tees" is really meant.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

rulefan said:



			"all courses" is often used when "all tees" is really meant.
		
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On the report there is a drop down menu which gives you “All courses” and “your named course”.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			On the report there is a drop down menu which gives you “All courses” and “your named course”.
		
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Not on mine it doesn't!

Having a look through a couple of days I can see scores registered by visitors on our course but not away scores for our members.


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## Old Skier (May 2, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Not on mine it doesn't!

Having a look through a couple of days I can see scores registered by visitors on our course but not away scores for our members.
		
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Its on mine but I don't think it works as I know of some scores entered at away courses not showing up in the report.


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## Swango1980 (May 3, 2021)

Very confusing Club V1 / howdidido issue when players entering scores after a competition.

When entering on phone, it used to be the default score was zero, and you moved the arrow button up to get your gross score. However, for the last few weeks / months, the default score is gross par, and you move the button up or down (or keep the same) to get the relevant score. If you blob a hole, for general play rounds if you change the score to zero, it askes if you started the hole or not. However, it does NOT ask this for a competition (as I blobbed a couple yesterday). It just lets you move on if you type zero. Now, this is not the issue, as it correctly gives me nett double (and perhaps if you don't start the hole, it asks you to type in *, but I cannot remember).

The confusing thing is the following. A member text me today to say his 3 blobs appear as nett Par on his WHS record. He told me that he entered scores on his phone. As he moved to each hole, the default score was zero. For his blobbed holes, he just left it at zero and moved on. His score was correct in the comp as expected, but his score wrong on WHS as by doing what he did, it must have assumed he never started the holes. Even more oddly, he has said he has also been presented with the screen before in which the default score is par (as it is for me), but yesterday for him the default scores were zero.

He is a fairly reliable witness, so I suspect there could well be something dodgy going on rather than him being an idiot. I checked all the other players in the field, and their scores on WHS seem fine.


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Very confusing Club V1 / howdidido issue when players entering scores after a competition.

When entering on phone, it used to be the default score was zero, and you moved the arrow button up to get your gross score. However, for the last few weeks / months, the default score is gross par, and you move the button up or down (or keep the same) to get the relevant score. If you blob a hole, for general play rounds if you change the score to zero, it askes if you started the hole or not. However, it does NOT ask this for a competition (as I blobbed a couple yesterday). It just lets you move on if you type zero. Now, this is not the issue, as it correctly gives me nett double (and perhaps if you don't start the hole, it asks you to type in *, but I cannot remember).

The confusing thing is the following. A member text me today to say his 3 blobs appear as nett Par on his WHS record. He told me that he entered scores on his phone. As he moved to each hole, the default score was zero. For his blobbed holes, he just left it at zero and moved on. His score was correct in the comp as expected, but his score wrong on WHS as by doing what he did, it must have assumed he never started the holes. Even more oddly, he has said he has also been presented with the screen before in which the default score is par (as it is for me), but yesterday for him the default scores were zero.

He is a fairly reliable witness, so I suspect there could well be something dodgy going on rather than him being an idiot. I checked all the other players in the field, and their scores on WHS seem fine.
		
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Strange, if all the others are correct I would assume finger trouble.


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## Swango1980 (May 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, if all the others are correct I would assume finger trouble.
		
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That is what I thought. But he described in detail what he did, and that he had to change every single score up from a default zero, except for his blob holes.

Maybe there is a wire connection wrong in his brain and he is thinking back to months ago, but he is a little young to be having memory issues I'd have thought.

You may be right, but was wondering if he had an older version of howdidido on his phone or something noddy like that (albeit I suspect the HDID app just links to whatever current version they have)


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			That is what I thought. But he described in detail what he did, and that he had to change every single score up from a default zero, except for his blob holes.

Maybe there is a wire connection wrong in his brain and he is thinking back to months ago, but he is a little young to be having memory issues I'd have thought.

You may be right, but was wondering if he had an older version of howdidido on his phone or something noddy like that (albeit I suspect the HDID app just links to whatever current version they have)
		
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Personally think that if it’s a comp try and get the majority to use the PSI, less room for error and people were quite happy to use it in the past.


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## Swango1980 (May 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Personally think that if it’s a comp try and get the majority to use the PSI, less room for error and people were quite happy to use it in the past.
		
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We will, though there are still a lot of people uncomfortable being inside club house for too long. And now they are used to using their phone, it will be hard to encourage them not to use it. A lot go straight home after finishing 18th, enter scores once they get home.

Incidentally, even if this player did have seem phone options as rest of us, any ideas how he could have put in a no score and indicate he never started hole? He clearly couldn't have typed in zero, so is there an option like * means hole not started? It seems weird that another dialogue box pops up asking you the question for a general play round, but does not for a competition round. Pretty inconsistent from the developers it seems


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We will, though there are still a lot of people uncomfortable being inside club house for too long. And now they are used to using their phone, it will be hard to encourage them not to use it. A lot go straight home after finishing 18th, enter scores once they get home.

Incidentally, even if this player did have seem phone options as rest of us, any ideas how he could have put in a no score and indicate he never started hole? He clearly couldn't have typed in zero, so is there an option like * means hole not started? It seems weird that another dialogue box pops up asking you the question for a general play round, but does not for a competition round. Pretty inconsistent from the developers it seems
		
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Will have a look at the HDID app in more detail at the next comp as I’m normally in early and go straight to the PSI which is positioned by the patio doors.


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## Swango1980 (May 4, 2021)

So, I am not sure if I am missing something here, or there is a really stupid issue on the MyEG App. So much so, I've had a confused member phone me to try and figure out their handicap.

In the WHS Course Calculator Option, it tells you your Course Handicap for different courses. Except, it called it PLAYING handicap. So, the member phones me asking if this Playing Handicap includes the 95% allowance for singles stroke play.

Why on earth would it use Playing as the terminology when it should be COURSE handicap?


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## rulefan (May 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, I am not sure if I am missing something here, or there is a really stupid issue on the MyEG App. So much so, I've had a confused member phone me to try and figure out their handicap.

In the WHS Course Calculator Option, it tells you your Course Handicap for different courses. Except, it called it PLAYING handicap. So, the member phones me asking if this Playing Handicap includes the 95% allowance for singles stroke play.

Why on earth would it use Playing as the terminology when it should be COURSE handicap?
		
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Have you tried it for yourself on your course?


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## nickjdavis (May 4, 2021)

Can confirm that Swango is correct. Calculates your Course Handicap but calls it Playing Handicap. The 95% calculation is not included....indeed how could it be...the App doesnt know whether you are going to be playing singles, matchplay, 4BBB....all it can do is tell you your Course Handicfap.


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## Swango1980 (May 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Have you tried it for yourself on your course?
		
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Yes, I looked at it myself first to ensure the member was simply not mistaken


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## IanMcC (May 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, I am not sure if I am missing something here, or there is a really stupid issue on the MyEG App. So much so, I've had a confused member phone me to try and figure out their handicap.

In the WHS Course Calculator Option, it tells you your Course Handicap for different courses. Except, it called it PLAYING handicap. So, the member phones me asking if this Playing Handicap includes the 95% allowance for singles stroke play.

Why on earth would it use Playing as the terminology when it should be COURSE handicap?
		
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I can confirm that the Wales Golf app makes the same schoolboy error.


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## nickjdavis (May 4, 2021)

I've emailed the WHS folks to see if they will change it.


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## Swango1980 (May 4, 2021)

I had the headache today of going through Club V1 to check who pre-registered just before score entry, or look for no returns for general play rounds.

Not sure what other clubs are going to do to manage this. However, I decided to set up a spreadsheet, each tab represents an individual member. I create a new one any time I detect an issue. I will then put the date of their score, type in their hole scores (if they submitted them) and write a note as to what the problem was, either pre-registration issue or a no return.

If they pre-registered just before score entry, I delete the score

If they do not return, I will e-mail them asking for their score (or enter a penalty score if they do not have it, unless there is a good reason they did not return score). I will use this e-mail to explain the importance of returning scores once pre-registered. I will then have a log that will easily help me identify players who may do this regularly, and then we can discuss various club policies on what action may need to be taken.

I may or may not increase this by keeping a record of all physical cards sent in, or whether they were sent in via e-mail / whatsapp / text, etc. Not sure yet, but it may be a good way to keep a detailed log of what I have received from various sources, and then I do not need to keep physical cards in case anyone comes asking to audit the club.


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## 2blue (May 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I had the headache today of going through Club V1 to check who pre-registered just before score entry, or look for no returns for general play rounds.

Not sure what other clubs are going to do to manage this. However, I decided to set up a spreadsheet, each tab represents an individual member. I create a new one any time I detect an issue. I will then put the date of their score, type in their hole scores (if they submitted them) and write a note as to what the problem was, either pre-registration issue or a no return.

If they pre-registered just before score entry, I delete the score

If they do not return, I will e-mail them asking for their score (or enter a penalty score if they do not have it, unless there is a good reason they did not return score). I will use this e-mail to explain the importance of returning scores once pre-registered. I will then have a log that will easily help me identify players who may do this regularly, and then we can discuss various club policies on what action may need to be taken.

I may or may not increase this by keeping a record of all physical cards sent in, or whether they were sent in via e-mail / whatsapp / text, etc. Not sure yet, but it may be a good way to keep a detailed log of what I have received from various sources, and then I do not need to keep physical cards in case anyone comes asking to audit the club.
		
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We're working very similarly to this......  allowing 2 requests for the return of their card or explanation. We reiterate the requirements/responsibilities & remind them that we are required to issue a Penalty score should these be ignored, as an image of the card/explanation of the problems encountered, can be sent to a generic email address.
Despite all this, we are just about to have to issue our first Penalty Score to one of our, for many years, erratic returners of cards, however, the Penalty of a Net-Par score will in fact give him a H/cap increase of 0.1      .......  not what we are wanting.
What's the alternative to this, other than a H/cap suspension.......   too soon for that yet, we feel?


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## rulefan (May 4, 2021)

2blue said:



			We're working very similarly to this......  allowing 2 requests for the return of their card or explanation. We reiterate the requirements/responsibilities & remind them that we are required to issue a Penalty score should these be ignored, as an image of the card/explanation of the problems encountered, can be sent to a generic email address.
Despite all this, we are just about to have to issue our first Penalty Score to one of our, for many years, erratic returners of cards, however, the Penalty of a Net-Par score will in fact give him a H/cap increase of 0.1      .......  not what we are wanting.
What's the alternative to this, other than a H/cap suspension.......   too soon for that yet, we feel?
		
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Penalize him with a number of strokes _Penalty Score
See Definition and 7.1b penultimate bullet_


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## mikejohnchapman (May 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I had the headache today of going through Club V1 to check who pre-registered just before score entry, or look for no returns for general play rounds.

Not sure what other clubs are going to do to manage this. However, I decided to set up a spreadsheet, each tab represents an individual member. I create a new one any time I detect an issue. I will then put the date of their score, type in their hole scores (if they submitted them) and write a note as to what the problem was, either pre-registration issue or a no return.

If they pre-registered just before score entry, I delete the score

If they do not return, I will e-mail them asking for their score (or enter a penalty score if they do not have it, unless there is a good reason they did not return score). I will use this e-mail to explain the importance of returning scores once pre-registered. I will then have a log that will easily help me identify players who may do this regularly, and then we can discuss various club policies on what action may need to be taken.

I may or may not increase this by keeping a record of all physical cards sent in, or whether they were sent in via e-mail / whatsapp / text, etc. Not sure yet, but it may be a good way to keep a detailed log of what I have received from various sources, and then I do not need to keep physical cards in case anyone comes asking to audit the club.
		
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Yep - me too!

Spreadsheet is by month and I copy all GP rounds into the relevant month tab. Split into 2 parts - completed rounds (there is no standard report to give this yet) and errors. I track the errors and if there is no good reason why a round has not been completed / submitted they go into a tab called Naughty Step. This is where we track how many strikes an individual member has before formal sanction. By retaining the details we have the evidence needed if challenged.

The current gaping hole is MyEG app General Play scores (home or Away) which don't show up on Club V1.


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## Swango1980 (May 5, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yep - me too!

Spreadsheet is by month and I copy all GP rounds into the relevant month tab. Split into 2 parts - completed rounds (there is no standard report to give this yet) and errors. I track the errors and if there is no good reason why a round has not been completed / submitted they go into a tab called Naughty Step. This is where we track how many strikes an individual member has before formal sanction. By retaining the details we have the evidence needed if challenged.

The current gaping hole is MyEG app General Play scores (home or Away) which don't show up on Club V1.
		
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You'll need to go on the WHS Platform as well, to check scores that haven't been submitted. It is a pity everything wasn't just shown in one piece of software.


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## upsidedown (May 5, 2021)

This might pop up in the future for you all as it has happened to me . If you've played two rounds on a single day with one of them being a counting one and they are your 21st and 20th scores the better score will count and even if it's your 21st will still be used for index calculation until you play another round . Had this confirmed from Gemma Hunter at WHS today . Happy to PM her reply .


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## mikejohnchapman (May 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You'll need to go on the WHS Platform as well, to check scores that haven't been submitted. It is a pity everything wasn't just shown in one piece of software.
		
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I can see rounds not submitted for GP on the Club V1 Casual Rounds report - use that to chase missing scores. On the platform the snappily named "Unsatisfied Score Intents" give me any away or home MyEG app loaded rounds that are in error but there is nothing to show just GP rounds. The Daily Score reports gives no analysis by type (Comp, Away, GP, etc)


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I can see rounds not submitted for GP on the Club V1 Casual Rounds report - use that to chase missing scores. On the platform the snappily named "Unsatisfied Score Intents" give me any away or home MyEG app loaded rounds that are in error but there is nothing to show just GP rounds. The Daily Score reports gives no analysis by type (Comp, Away, GP, etc)
		
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On the WHS DB Reports section, doesn't scores Listed by Day include casual rounds, unfortunately it will also include comp rounds.


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## jim8flog (May 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Thanks for that rulefan - so it begs the question , what are most clubs doing?
		
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 Where I play if you play in a swindle and want it count you preregister the round and play to the rules of golf. We are not insisting that swindles do so on a mandatory basis and fail to understands club that are making it so unless the swindle is a club organised one.  To me it is a misinterpretation of The Rules of Handicapping which say scores *may* be used not scores *must  *be used.


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## jim8flog (May 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure that this has been asked before but there so many questions on WHS I just am asking to save loads of looking back

Our Captains newsletter is talking about scores in club swindles being needing to be entered. Like most swindles they rarely hole out so, in that case, are they bound to put scores in or will swindles be required to amend their gimmee's and hole out?
		
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  This reminds me of when CONGU brought in the requirement that swindle scores must be taken in to consideration at the Annual Review. I spoke to several organisers -  some did not even keep records and some flat out refused to give me the records unless every single swindle (and we have a lot) were made to do the same.


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## jim8flog (May 6, 2021)

2blue said:



			Despite all this, we are just about to have to issue our first Penalty Score to one of our, for many years, erratic returners of cards, however, the Penalty of a Net-Par score will in fact give him a H/cap increase of 0.1      .......  not what we are wanting.
What's the alternative to this, other than a H/cap suspension.......   too soon for that yet, we feel?
		
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Surely teh reason for the player not returning thecard is because it ws not a good round and and such score submitted would give him a change to to his Handicap . Is he in fact Handicapping protecting by avoiding increases.

As per Rulefan rule 7 is your friend. Specifically 
l If the Handicap Committee concludes that a player failed to submit a score
for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, it should consider
withdrawing the player’s Handicap Index, and/or applying an appropriate
penalty score (high or low depending on intent).

there is also a flow chart to follow.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Where I play if you play in a swindle and want it count you preregister the round and play to the rules of golf. We are not insisting that swindles do so on a mandatory basis and fail to understands club that are making it so unless the swindle is a club organised one.  To me it is a misinterpretation of The Rules of Handicapping which say scores *may* be used not scores *must  *be used.
		
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This


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## wjemather (May 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Where I play if you play in a swindle and want it count you preregister the round and play to the rules of golf. We are not insisting that swindles do so on a mandatory basis and fail to understands club that are making it so unless the swindle is a club organised one.  To me it is a misinterpretation of The Rules of Handicapping which say scores *may* be used not scores *must  *be used.
		
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Except CONGU's guidance says the following, which has been reinforced to us by EG through the county:
"WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs." G2.1a (1)


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Except CONGU's guidance says the following, which has been reinforced to us by EG through the county:
"WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs." G2.1a (1)
		
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But the organised events must be played under the rules of golf. Our seniors Friday Club with restricted entry (I’m not one of the chosen) play gimmes and the OOB rule that clubs had the option to implement (which we didn’t) so although “organised” not subject to the CONGU rules.


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## wjemather (May 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			But the organised events must be played under the rules of golf. Our seniors Friday Club with restricted entry (I’m not one of the chosen) play gimmes and the OOB rule that clubs had the option to implement (which we didn’t) so although “organised” not subject to the CONGU rules.
		
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Indeed. Most groups at our club that would otherwise be caught by the guidance exclude themselves by having gimmes or other variations of the rules.


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Indeed. Most groups at our club that would otherwise be caught by the guidance exclude themselves by having gimmes or other variations of the rules.
		
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But compromises can be made, their organisers have asked if I would mind setting up a comp on the last Friday of every month.


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## jim8flog (May 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Except CONGU's guidance says the following, which has been reinforced to us by EG through the county:
"WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs." G2.1a (1)
		
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However that is surely trumped by

2.1b Played by the Rules of Golf
A round must be played by the Rules of Golf to be acceptable for handicap
purposes, subject to the following:

 so if a swindle is using gimmes ..............


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## jim8flog (May 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			But the organised events must be played under the rules of golf. Our seniors Friday Club with restricted entry (I’m not one of the chosen) play gimmes and the OOB rule that clubs had the option to implement (which we didn’t) so although “organised” not subject to the CONGU rules.
		
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For info
 Gimmes does prevent it but using the OOB rule does not

Where a player follows the provisions set down in a Model Local Rule, even
when the Committee in charge of the course has not adopted that Model
Local Rule, the score may still be acceptable for handicap purposes. The
same situation applies where a player is in breach of a Model Local Rule that
has been adopted by the Committee.
Examples of situations relating to Model Local Rules where a score might be
acceptable for handicap purposes include:
l A player has proceeded under the alternative option to the stroke and
distance relief procedure, despite this Model Local Rule not being in effect,
or
l The player has used a distance-measuring device despite the Model Local
Rule prohibiting their use being in effect.
The final determination is at the discretion of the Committee, based on the
circumstances.


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## IanMcC (May 6, 2021)

OK, so up until now I have been pretty much ignoring the score entry via apps thing. We are part of Wales Golf, and we are still not allowed into clubhouses. Hopefully that is changing on 17th May. Our PSI is inside the clubhouse. I did a health check on it the other day by creating a dummy comp, and all seems fine with it. I have been accepting comp scorecards via an outside letterbox. I tried the photograph route last Summer, which did not work out at all. Casual rounds have been pre-registered by email or text to me in the morning before tee off. This has all worked very well. Some members have been inputting comp scores via HDID, which is fine, so long as I can check the physical card if they are in contention. What I am really not sure of is people entering casual rounds via an app. I believe the England Golf app has this function, but the Wales Golf app does not. I could be wrong. I also think that people can (pre) register a casual round for handicap purposes via HDID, but again I am not sure. My main question is, how are these considered pre registered if the M&H committee do not receive prior notification? As a M&H Secretary, I need a crash course in entering scores via app, and how I can see and control them.


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## Swango1980 (May 6, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			OK, so up until now I have been pretty much ignoring the score entry via apps thing. We are part of Wales Golf, and we are still not allowed into clubhouses. Hopefully that is changing on 17th May. Our PSI is inside the clubhouse. I did a health check on it the other day by creating a dummy comp, and all seems fine with it. I have been accepting comp scorecards via an outside letterbox. I tried the photograph route last Summer, which did not work out at all. Casual rounds have been pre-registered by email or text to me in the morning before tee off. This has all worked very well. Some members have been inputting comp scores via HDID, which is fine, so long as I can check the physical card if they are in contention. What I am really not sure of is people entering casual rounds via an app. I believe the England Golf app has this function, but the Wales Golf app does not. I could be wrong. I also think that people can (pre) register a casual round for handicap purposes via HDID, but again I am not sure. My main question is, how are these considered pre registered if the M&H committee do not receive prior notification? As a M&H Secretary, I need a crash course in entering scores via app, and how I can see and control them.
		
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You can set Club V1 to allow general play rounds via the PSI and via howdidido. Players sign in on either to pre register, and enter score after. Sign in and score entry are time stamped on Club V1, I've had to delete several who have entered scores minutes after signing in.


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## 2blue (May 6, 2021)

jim8flog said:



*Surely the reason for the player not returning the card is because it was not a good round and such a score submitted would give him a change to his Handicap*. Is he in fact Handicapping protecting by avoiding increases.

As per Rulefan rule 7 is your friend. Specifically
l If the Handicap Committee concludes that a player failed to submit a score
for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, it should consider
withdrawing the player’s Handicap Index, and/or applying an appropriate
penalty score (high or low depending on intent).

there is also a flow chart to follow.
		
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Despite what we know of him that is an assumption too far & would be difficult to support. However it is likely to be our next position.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You can set Club V1 to allow general play rounds via the PSI and via howdidido. Players sign in on either to pre register, and enter score after. *Sign in and score entry are time stamped on Club V1, I've had to delete several who have entered scores minutes after signing in*.
		
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According to the latest WHS missive from EG Club Systems are being asked to change this to prevent registration and entry being close together


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## rulefan (May 7, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			According to the latest WHS missive from EG Club Systems are being asked to change this to prevent registration and entry being close together
		
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I'm not sure if I've missed that. Have you got a link?


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## IanMcC (May 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You can set Club V1 to allow general play rounds via the PSI and via howdidido. Players sign in on either to pre register, and enter score after. Sign in and score entry are time stamped on Club V1, I've had to delete several who have entered scores minutes after signing in.
		
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When you say 'You', I presume you mean a ClubV1 administrator can set up these options. I don't have full admin rights. We needed an admin password to set up the PSI the other day, and I think I remember seeing a casual round option on there. There is certainly no way at the moment someone can pre register a casual round on either HDID or ClubV1. To be frank, I think its a daft idea opening this option up. It takes control away from the M&H people, and is surely open to abuse, as your time stamping issues prove. So, is it an option that only an administrator can set up, or am I missing something else?


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## Swango1980 (May 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			When you say 'You', I presume you mean a ClubV1 administrator can set up these options. I don't have full admin rights. We needed an admin password to set up the PSI the other day, and I think I remember seeing a casual round option on there. There is certainly no way at the moment someone can pre register a casual round on either HDID or ClubV1. To be frank, I think its a daft idea opening this option up. It takes control away from the M&H people, and is surely open to abuse, as your time stamping issues prove. So, is it an option that only an administrator can set up, or am I missing something else?
		
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Yes, the administrator.

Just note, golfers can also use the MyEG app to submit general play rounds as well, and I assume the other UK nations have / or will have the same functionality. Ultimately, control will be taken away from the M&H people anyway, as scores will be going on to a players record without Committee members being able to verify these scores beforehand (unless someone checks late every single night). Scores may be deleted afterwards if anything suspicious is suspected, or players chased for a no return.

As mentioned, I believe a request has been made for howdidido not to allow score entry immediately after sign in. Strangely, I don't think this is a great idea. It is clear some players will try to do this, and I have been able to identify when it goes on. If a delay was enforced, these same players could sign in, realise they cannot immediately enter their score and just simply wait for a few hours before the system allows score entry. As handicap sec, I am now none the wiser that the player did not properly pre-register properly, unless I go to the club and check all the tee times that were booked up for that day, and see when the player played. That is not going to happen.


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## yandabrown (May 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, the administrator.

Just note, golfers can also use the MyEG app to submit general play rounds as well, and I assume the other UK nations have / or will have the same functionality. Ultimately, control will be taken away from the M&H people anyway, as scores will be going on to a players record without Committee members being able to verify these scores beforehand (unless someone checks late every single night). Scores may be deleted afterwards if anything suspicious is suspected, or players chased for a no return.

As mentioned, I believe a request has been made for howdidido not to allow score entry immediately after sign in. Strangely, I don't think this is a great idea. It is clear some players will try to do this, and I have been able to identify when it goes on. If a delay was enforced, these same players could sign in, realise they cannot immediately enter their score and just simply wait for a few hours before the system allows score entry. As handicap sec, I am now none the wiser that* the player did not properly pre-register properly, unless I go to the club and check all the tee times that were booked up for that day*, and see when the player played. That is not going to happen.
		
Click to expand...

But the system knows all this and should be able to do all this for us. If the player is unable to register before their booked time then that is just unfortunate and they will not be able to enter a card. If they put in the numbers less than x hours (course dependent) after their tee time then that should raise a flag for checking, else all _should_ be fine. Clearly those that want to game the system will be able to do so but will take a little more effort.


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## Swango1980 (May 7, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			But the system knows all this and should be able to do all this for us. If the player is unable to register before their booked time then that is just unfortunate and they will not be able to enter a card. If they put in the numbers less than x hours (course dependent) after their tee time then that should raise a flag for checking, else all _should_ be fine. Clearly those that want to game the system will be able to do so but will take a little more effort.
		
Click to expand...

The system does not know what tee time they booked.

So, the guy who I identified signing in at 07:44, and entering score at 07:48 last weekend. With a delay in Score entry, all be does is sign in at 07:44. Realises he can't enter his score straight after, so gets on with his daily activities. Then, some time in afternoon he enters his score. Job done. I would never have been able to know the round wasn't legitimate. The system would not either.

Now, the player could do that anyway if he knew his score would be deleted if score entered straight after sign in. However, at least it is another safety net for the Committee, that when a player does that then the Committee can make a note and delete the score. Maybe send a polite e-mail. It may also put certain players higher on the Committee's radar, to do more detailed spot checks in the future.


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## IanMcC (May 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, the administrator.

*Just note, golfers can also use the MyEG app to submit general play rounds as well, and I assume the other UK nations have / or will have the same functionality*. Ultimately, control will be taken away from the M&H people anyway, as scores will be going on to a players record without Committee members being able to verify these scores beforehand (unless someone checks late every single night). Scores may be deleted afterwards if anything suspicious is suspected, or players chased for a no return.

As mentioned, I believe a request has been made for howdidido not to allow score entry immediately after sign in. Strangely, I don't think this is a great idea. It is clear some players will try to do this, and I have been able to identify when it goes on. If a delay was enforced, these same players could sign in, realise they cannot immediately enter their score and just simply wait for a few hours before the system allows score entry. As handicap sec, I am now none the wiser that the player did not properly pre-register properly, unless I go to the club and check all the tee times that were booked up for that day, and see when the player played. That is not going to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Just checked again. There is no facility to enter a casual round on either the Wales Golf app or the My Wales Golf website. If they built it this way on purpose then I commend them wholeheartedly.


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## Swango1980 (May 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Just checked again. There is no facility to enter a casual round on either the Wales Golf app or the My Wales Golf website. If they built it this way on purpose then I commend them wholeheartedly.
		
Click to expand...

How will players enter general play scores before midnight, as required under WHS requirements?


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## IanMcC (May 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			How will players enter general play scores before midnight, as required under WHS requirements?
		
Click to expand...

They contact me in the morning to pre-register. After the round they take a pic of the card and send it to me, or put it in the box at the club for me to retrieve. I update Dashboard. If I don't get a card they get a penalty score, but that has not happened yet in a pre-registered casual round.
I realise this might be a hassle for some people, but luckily I am retired and M&H can occupy more of my time than it can for others.


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## IanMcC (May 7, 2021)

I have had members preregister rounds from Spain and Scotland, and it has worked well.


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## Swango1980 (May 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			They contact me in the morning to pre-register. After the round they take a pic of the card and send it to me, or put it in the box at the club for me to retrieve. I update Dashboard. If I don't get a card they get a penalty score, but that has not happened yet in a pre-registered casual round.
I realise this might be a hassle for some people, but luckily I am retired and M&H can occupy more of my time than it can for others.
		
Click to expand...

That wouldn't work at our club at all. There is no way myself, or even a team of people, could monitor all general play scores every day, and enter scores as they come in, chase those that do not come in. I suspect other clubs would be in same boat.

If you went on holiday for a week or 2, do you have others that can monitor these scores every day?

Besides, with nomads having handicaps soon, it is even more inevitable there will be functionality for players to enter their scores themselves, and handicaps updated, without any third part getting involved in verification (except for their marker)


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## IanMcC (May 7, 2021)

We have 4 comps a week. 2 mixed, one gents only and one ladies only, so the need for casual rounds at our club is minimal.
Yes, I have 2 other committee members, both also retired, and both quite local, who can step in when I am busy. I know we are more fortunate than others in this respect.
Im not really concerned with nomads. I just want to serve my members and retain as much integrity in scoring as possible.

Out of interest, Swango1980, how many casual rounds do you process in an average week?


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## Swango1980 (May 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			We have 4 comps a week. 2 mixed, one gents only and one ladies only, so the need for casual rounds at our club is minimal.
Yes, I have 2 other committee members, both also retired, and both quite local, who can step in when I am busy. I know we are more fortunate than others in this respect.
Im not really concerned with nomads. I just want to serve my members and retain as much integrity in scoring as possible.

Out of interest, Swango1980, how many casual rounds do you process in an average week?
		
Click to expand...

Having a look at Club V1, 33 players have submitted scores through howdidido / PSI this week. There may be a few more on MyEG, but really difficult to track as they are mixed in with competition scores that day. However, the number of players entering scores is generally a lot more than before, and I suspect to see a very big rise as members get used to the new system, the fact that it is so easy for them to submit scores, and once the weather gets better.

I agree, I was massively worried about abuse of the system, and the fact that I really cannot keep on top of what scores are being submitted (unlike before, where I knew a score would not touch a player's record until I verified it and checked their scorecard. However, I have now resigned myself to effectively trusting members and only acting if something very obvious crops up. In the early days, I saw many scores that had been typed in incorrectly, as I saw the card a few days later and the scores did not match what they had entered into system. Once guy types his markers score, which was 15 shots higher than his own. However, it will become more difficult to even check that every time, as I strongly suspect physical cards will not be handed in at times, just thrown in the bin after the player enters the score. I have no time to chase these scorecards.


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## givepeaceachance (May 7, 2021)

Hi all. I'm new here & have seen this thread and have checked a few of the 54 pages! But to save me going through them all, in regards GP rounds, I was led to believe that if people are playing in a regularly organised group, it is presumed they have pre-registered for a GP score. So they then have the option to either enter their score or not at the end of the round? But obviously if they do that the timings are within a space of 5 minutes (ish) from them registering to entering scores. If measures were put in place to close that timescale how would the presumption of pre intent work??? Thanks in advance


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## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

givepeaceachance said:



			Hi all. I'm new here & have seen this thread and have checked a few of the 54 pages! But to save me going through them all, in regards GP rounds, I was led to believe that if people are playing in a regularly organised group, it is presumed they have pre-registered for a GP score. So they then have the option to either enter their score or not at the end of the round? But obviously if they do that the timings are within a space of 5 minutes (ish) from them registering to entering scores. If measures were put in place to close that timescale how would the presumption of pre intent work??? Thanks in advance 

Click to expand...


 It is up to your club to decide if they are going to accept such scores so check with them first

The Handicap Committee *may* consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

Worth remembering if your group have gimmes the score is not acceptable.


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## Swango1980 (May 7, 2021)

givepeaceachance said:



			Hi all. I'm new here & have seen this thread and have checked a few of the 54 pages! But to save me going through them all, in regards GP rounds, I was led to believe that if people are playing in a regularly organised group, it is presumed they have pre-registered for a GP score. So they then have the option to either enter their score or not at the end of the round? But obviously if they do that the timings are within a space of 5 minutes (ish) from them registering to entering scores. If measures were put in place to close that timescale how would the presumption of pre intent work??? Thanks in advance 

Click to expand...

Additional to jim's response.

If the Committee have decided that the round is Acceptable for handicap, and pre-registration those assumed for those playing, players do not have the option to submit a score after. They MUST submit their score.


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## wjemather (May 12, 2021)

ClubV1 monthly update today, which includes lots of little fixes and insignificant changes but...
DQ reasons are finally back - hurrah!
And non-qualifying casual rounds can be disabled.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2021)

wjemather said:



ClubV1 monthly update today, which includes lots of little fixes and insignificant changes but...
DQ reasons are finally back - hurrah!
And non-qualifying casual rounds can be disabled.
		
Click to expand...

Wheres the disable button please. I presume on the main V1 system?


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Wheres the disable button please. I presume on the main V1 system?
		
Click to expand...

Found it - Club>Settings>Golf Settings


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2021)

V1 users should note that at present you cannot allocate CDH No to new members today (12 May), a fix is in the pipeline for tonight.


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			V1 users should note that at present you cannot allocate CDH No to new members today (12 May), a fix is in the pipeline for tonight.
		
Click to expand...

I think this problem still exists. Just tried to click:

"Add handicap record" - "This is a new member who does not have a CDH ID yet. Choose this step to assign an ID"

If I do this, it just stays on the same scree, and a yellow warning comes up at top saying "The primary handicap record for this person does not exist"

Is this the issue you mean? I wonder, when these guys make changes to the software, do they not do some basic alpha testing, like doing the very common tasks such as adding a new member?


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I think this problem still exists. Just tried to click:

"Add handicap record" - "This is a new member who does not have a CDH ID yet. Choose this step to assign an ID"

If I do this, it just stays on the same scree, and a yellow warning comes up at top saying "The primary handicap record for this person does not exist"

Is this the issue you mean? I wonder, when these guys make changes to the software, do they not do some basic alpha testing, like doing the very common tasks such as adding a new member?
		
Click to expand...

That's the one. Contacted Drew on chat and he sorted it.


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			That's the one. Contacted Drew on chat and he sorted it.
		
Click to expand...

Great, hopefully it'll be sorted soon, and then I can add this new member


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## rulefan (May 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Great, hopefully it'll be sorted soon, and then I can add this new member
		
Click to expand...

Why don't you use the WHS portal?


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## IanMcC (May 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Great, hopefully it'll be sorted soon, and then I can add this new member
		
Click to expand...

Cant you use WHS Dashboard then sync the details over to ClubV1, or is the Sync button inactive right now as well?


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Why don't you use the WHS portal?
		
Click to expand...

If I get desperate, I will. He has only submitted 1 card, so there is no urgency. If it was to get to the point where he had submitted 3 cards and wanted his handicap, then I would go direct to WHS. However, I'd then be worried I'd set it up there and then Club V1 would struggle to link to it based on another bug that may or may not exist. I like to keep as consistent as possible in the way I do things, rather than flip back and forth between platforms based on whichever one works at the time.


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Cant you use WHS Dashboard then sync the details over to ClubV1, or is the Sync button inactive right now as well?
		
Click to expand...

See my previous post. 

However, in another issue, a Senior members score from yesterday did not go through to WHS. However, this was because he was an Away member, and on WHS not linked to our club. So, I added him as a member on WHS and added in his email address and DOB. However, the score still does not sync from Club V1 to WHS. If I click on Re-try to submit to CDH, it still does not. 

Now, I am not sure why this is, however it was a stableford comp and he had zero's for the entire back 9. I assume Club V1 cannot automatically detect he only played 9 and therefore assumes his score cannot count for handicap. I'd have thought the assumption from the tech would be he simply blobbed every hole on the back 9.


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## IanMcC (May 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			See my previous post.

However, in another issue, a Senior members score from yesterday did not go through to WHS. However, this was because he was an Away member, and on WHS not linked to our club. So, I added him as a member on WHS and added in his email address and DOB. However, the score still does not sync from Club V1 to WHS. If I click on Re-try to submit to CDH, it still does not.

Now, I am not sure why this is, however it was a stableford comp and he had zero's for the entire back 9. I assume Club V1 cannot automatically detect he only played 9 and therefore assumes his score cannot count for handicap. I'd have thought the assumption from the tech would be he simply blobbed every hole on the back 9.
		
Click to expand...

I would add his score to WHS then sync it across, and try not to lose any sleep over it. There is a DNP button on ClubV1, so the software should pick up the difference between a '0' and a 'DNP', which I believe comes up as a * on WHS. If it doesn't, then its just another glitch, but not a serious one, so long as we use the daily card entry count to check all scores have went across.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I'm not sure if I've missed that. Have you got a link?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, missed your response. It was from the EG General Meeting in April 2021 - Q&A session.

_Q. Can I put in a WHS query? – Club Systems Scoring App - This app a) does not allow for a time lag between sign in and score entry so the two things can be done simultaneously which is not in line with Rules of Handicapping. b) requires a marker to be named but the marker’s name does not appear in the club’s records, so we have no recourse to this person._
*A. We are aware of this and we are working with the other home unions to bring this to their attention and request additional safeguards are put in place.*


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## mikejohnchapman (May 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Found it - Club>Settings>Golf Settings
		
Click to expand...

IT  WORKS !!!!!!


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## rulefan (May 14, 2021)

I'm afraid the question of handicap differences in 4BBB is causing ructions in my club. Although the words in Rule 6 and Appendix C seemed clear to me I can see why others have a different understanding.
So, is 90% applied to each player's CH first and then the difference between individual PHs from the lowest established or
is the difference between the individual CHs from the lower established first and then 90% applied to the difference between CHs?


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## IanMcC (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I'm afraid the question of handicap differences in 4BBB is causing ructions in my club. Although the words in Rule 6 and Appendix C seemed clear to me I can see why others have a different understanding.
So, is 90% applied to each player's CH first and then the difference between individual PHs from the lowest established or
is the difference between the individual CHs from the lower established first and then 90% applied to the difference between CHs?
		
Click to expand...

Wales Golf sent me an explanation, clearly stating it was 90% CH then full difference. I will try and hunt it out.


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## rulefan (May 14, 2021)

Many thanks. That is how I understand it.


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## IanMcC (May 14, 2021)

This is a copy of what Wales Golf sent me.

•Player A and Player B are playing Player C and Player D in 4 ball match play on the red tees with the 119 slope rating
•Player A: Course Handicap = 11
•Player B: Course Handicap = 2
•Player C: Course Handicap = 21
•Player D: Course Handicap = 15
•
•They all then need to apply the 90% allowance leaving their playing handicaps for that event on the day as.
•Player A: Playing Handicap = 10
•Player B: Playing Handicap = 2
•Player C: Playing Handicap = 19
•Player D: Playing Handicap = 14
•
•The shots received by each player would then be
•Player A: Strokes received = 8
•Player B: Strokes received = 0
•Player C: Strokes received = 17
•Player D: Strokes received = 12


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## IanMcC (May 14, 2021)

I know they are talking about dual tee comps, but the explanation of Match play pairs on page 42 of the Guidance document also backs up this method.


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## Swango1980 (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I'm afraid the question of handicap differences in 4BBB is causing ructions in my club. Although the words in Rule 6 and Appendix C seemed clear to me I can see why others have a different understanding.
So, is 90% applied to each player's CH first and then the difference between individual PHs from the lowest established or
is the difference between the individual CHs from the lower established first and then 90% applied to the difference between CHs?
		
Click to expand...

Surely the Table in C/2, along with Example 2 underneath make it clear that you take 90% FIRST, then the difference?


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## Swango1980 (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I'm afraid the question of handicap differences in 4BBB is causing ructions in my club. Although the words in Rule 6 and Appendix C seemed clear to me I can see why others have a different understanding.
So, is 90% applied to each player's CH first and then the difference between individual PHs from the lowest established or
is the difference between the individual CHs from the lower established first and then 90% applied to the difference between CHs?
		
Click to expand...


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## Swango1980 (May 14, 2021)

I notice in the Reports section of the WHS Platform, there is now one for "General Play Scores". I assume this is a recent addition?


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## IanMcC (May 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I notice in the Reports section of the WHS Platform, there is now one for "General Play Scores". I assume this is a recent addition?
		
Click to expand...

Good spot! Could be handy. I can confirm it is in the Wales Golf Platform also.


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I'm afraid the question of handicap differences in 4BBB is causing ructions in my club. Although the words in Rule 6 and Appendix C seemed clear to me I can see why others have a different understanding.
So, is 90% applied to each player's CH first and then the difference between individual PHs from the lowest established or
is the difference between the individual CHs from the lower established first and then 90% applied to the difference between CHs?
		
Click to expand...

90% course HC. People need to apply some common sence. Everything works initialy from the CH.


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## 2blue (May 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			90% course HC. People need to apply some common sense. Everything works initially from the CH.
		
Click to expand...

The wording seems clear to me. 
Work out what you're playing off first, PH ...... THEN sort the shots got off the lowest player.


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2021)

2blue said:



			The wording seems clear to me.
Work out what you're playing off first, PH ...... THEN sort the shots got off the lowest player.
		
Click to expand...

I presume your having a laugh


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## 2blue (May 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I presume your having a laugh
		
Click to expand...

Hows that?? All easily done, isnt it?


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2021)

2blue said:



			The wording seems clear to me.
Work out what you're playing off first, PH ...... THEN sort the shots got off the lowest player.
		
Click to expand...

Or the first thing you work out is what your course HC is -


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## rulefan (May 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely the Table in C/2, along with Example 2 underneath make it clear that you take 90% FIRST, then the difference?
		
Click to expand...

That's what I thought and posted a note to members to that effect. But if you do the calculations in the example the 'wrong' way you get the same answer. So I couldn't demonstrate the point.


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			That's what I thought and posted a note to members to that effect. But if you do the calculations in the example the 'wrong' way you get the same answer. So I couldn't demonstrate the point.
		
Click to expand...

Try the demo using someone with a very high index and let me know what happens, I hate sums


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## wjemather (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			That's what I thought and posted a note to members to that effect. But if you do the calculations in the example the 'wrong' way you get the same answer. So I couldn't demonstrate the point.
		
Click to expand...

The result is not always the same. For example:

CH 15 = PH 14
CH 28 = PH 25

90% of difference in CH = 0.9 x (28 - 15) = 12
Full difference in PH = (25 - 14) = 11


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## 2blue (May 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The result is not always the same. For example:

CH 15 = PH 14
CH 28 = PH 25

90% of difference in CH = 0.9 x (28 - 15) = 12
Full difference in PH = (25 - 14) = 11
		
Click to expand...

Well done that man. 👍👍
Is 11 difference in H/caps the telling number.....  asking for a friend 😁😁


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## rulefan (May 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The result is not always the same. For example:

CH 15 = PH 14
CH 28 = PH 25

90% of difference in CH = 0.9 x (28 - 15) = 12
Full difference in PH = (25 - 14) = 11
		
Click to expand...

*I* know that but I was referring to the values in the C/2 table which makes it difficult to prove right or wrong.

_"But if you do the calculations *in the example* the 'wrong' way you get the same answer._ "


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## wjemather (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



*I* know that but I was referring to the values in the C/2 table which makes it difficult to prove right or wrong.

_"But if you do the calculations *in the example* the 'wrong' way you get the same answer._ "
		
Click to expand...

Apologies if I misunderstood. I know you get it, however you stated that you "couldn't demonstrate the point", so I was merely providing a different example that does.


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## rulefan (May 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Apologies if I misunderstood. I know you get it, however you stated that you "couldn't demonstrate the point", so I was merely providing a different example that does.
		
Click to expand...

I see what you meant but it doesn't prove which is right only that they may produce different results. It would have been helpful (to me) if one of the entries produced a different result depending on 'before or after'.
The words don't include a clear sense of 'when'.


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## nickjdavis (May 14, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Good spot! Could be handy. I can confirm it is in the Wales Golf Platform also.
		
Click to expand...

Its been there a couple of days now.....pity it restricts you to a seven day time period for searching.


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## wjemather (May 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I see what you meant but it doesn't prove which is right only that they may produce different results. It would have been helpful (to me) if one of the entries produced a different result depending on 'before or after'.
The words don't include a clear sense of 'when'.
		
Click to expand...

The wording could certainly be improved (or include an additional clarification), but it is just about clear enough: "In general, *after *handicap allowances have been applied in match play formats, the player with the lowest Playing Handicap plays off zero strokes relative to the other player(s). The other player(s) receive(s) the difference between their own Playing Handicap and that of the player with the lowest Playing Handicap."


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## rosecott (May 15, 2021)

Has anyone yet run a Texas Scramble using the WHS handicap allowances?

I have been setting up the draw for our first one with our Seniors next Friday and the new handicap allowances are going to cause a bit of a stir.

You are seldom lucky enough to have it working out neatly in teams of 4 so you have to have a team handicap for a 3-man team which takes into account the disparity in opportunities between a 3-man and 4-man team. Our system finally settled on 10% of combined handicaps for 4-man teams and 1/6th for 3-man teams and that worked well for us. A 4-man team of handicaps 15/20/24/25 would get a team handicap of 9.4 and a 3-man team of 18/22/28 would get a team handicap of 11.3. It would normally work out at around 2 higher for a 3-man team, everyone was happy with that and results showed that 3-man teams had a similar success rate to 4-man teams

Now, using the new allowances, the same 4-man team gets a team handicap of 15 and the 3-man team gets 13 – a complete turnaround which puts a 3-man team at a huge disadvantage.

I know there was a heated discussion on another thread about the new allowances but this just doesn’t make sense.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I notice in the Reports section of the WHS Platform, there is now one for "General Play Scores". I assume this is a recent addition?
		
Click to expand...

Yes - I saw this but the only timescale available is 7 days and not selectable for longer which is a shame. A means of picking up EG App entries I guess?


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## wjemather (May 15, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Has anyone yet run a Texas Scramble using the WHS handicap allowances?

I have been setting up the draw for our first one with our Seniors next Friday and the new handicap allowances are going to cause a bit of a stir.

You are seldom lucky enough to have it working out neatly in teams of 4 so you have to have a team handicap for a 3-man team which takes into account the disparity in opportunities between a 3-man and 4-man team. Our system finally settled on 10% of combined handicaps for 4-man teams and 1/6th for 3-man teams and that worked well for us. A 4-man team of handicaps 15/20/24/25 would get a team handicap of 9.4 and a 3-man team of 18/22/28 would get a team handicap of 11.3. It would normally work out at around 2 higher for a 3-man team, everyone was happy with that and results showed that 3-man teams had a similar success rate to 4-man teams

Now, using the new allowances, the same 4-man team gets a team handicap of 15 and the 3-man team gets 13 – a complete turnaround which puts a 3-man team at a huge disadvantage.

I know there was a heated discussion on another thread about the new allowances but this just doesn’t make sense.
		
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We have run one scramble, but all teams had 4 players so didn't have to deal with your situation. However, our intention was to add a "ghost" player with an index of about 18.0-20.0 to any 3-person team to boost their team handicap.


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## rosecott (May 15, 2021)

wjemather said:



			We have run one scramble, but all teams had 4 players so didn't have to deal with your situation. However, our intention was to add a "ghost" player with an index of about 18.0-20.0 to any 3-person team to boost their team handicap.
		
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I'll certainly have that as a backup plan when the complaining starts.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2021)

Any V1 users unable to print off results sheets today 16 May


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## 2blue (May 16, 2021)

wjemather said:



			We have run one scramble, but all teams had 4 players so didn't have to deal with your situation. However, our intention was to add a "ghost" player with an index of about 18.0-20.0 to any 3-person team to boost their team handicap.
		
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I'm just wondering how, practically, this happens. Is the 'ghost' created as a golf member then selected from the V1 list to make-up the team. If so would you need 'Ghost-1' 'Ghost-2' etc?


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## IanMcC (May 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Any V1 users unable to print off results sheets today 16 May
		
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No issues bringing up the Competition Prints, but our comp isnt finished yet.


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## wjemather (May 16, 2021)

2blue said:



			I'm just wondering how, practically, this happens. Is the 'ghost' created as a golf member then selected from the V1 list to make-up the team. If so would you need 'Ghost-1' 'Ghost-2' etc?
		
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That was my expectation, yes.


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2021)

WHS DB Issue, I have two members with CDH No and HC Index showing on the WHS DB but cannot get the info synced to their ISV record (V1). Anyone having similar issues or any fixes. Spoke to ISV and EG and not surprisingly it’s the other persons fault.


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## nickjdavis (May 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			WHS DB Issue, I have two members with CDH No and HC Index showing on the WHS DB but cannot get the info synced to their ISV record (V1). Anyone having similar issues or any fixes. Spoke to ISV and EG and not surprisingly it’s the other persons fault.
		
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Is their date of birth stored in the WHS portal? If there is no DoB then the WHS system wont update handicaps on the ISV platform. (that was our experience in the early days anyway  - with Handicapmaster)


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Is their date of birth stored into the WHS portal? If there is no DoB then the WHS system wont update handicaps on the ISV platform.
		
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Yep, that's what I don't get, DOB, Email and CDH all there on both records but don't appear to talk to each other.


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## Swango1980 (May 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Yep, that's what I don't get, DOB, Email and CDH all there on both records but don't appear to talk to each other.
		
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In their Player Profile menu in Club V1, on top tab (player information I think), perhaps you need to set it to Home player with no handicap first, then save it? It may be linked to bug when setting a player up directly from Club V1, where I need to do this first, before I can set them up with a CDH


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2021)

Now having issues with iPad accessing comps with iPad


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## mikejohnchapman (May 19, 2021)

Hard Cap Question

We have a player who has hit their Hard Cap - no issue with his scoring just a total loss of form.

His low index is 14.6 which was set on 10th July 2020 (looking at his EG scoring record). He hit his Hard cap on 19/4/21 and has played 30 rounds since attaining his LI.

My question is what happens when he gets to 10th July 2021? Does his LI get reset automatically and keep doing so automatically as each historical round is reached?

If not should we be resetting his LI manually and if so to what level?


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## Swango1980 (May 19, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Hard Cap Question

We have a player who has hit their Hard Cap - no issue with his scoring just a total loss of form.

His low index is 14.6 which was set on 10th July 2020 (looking at his EG scoring record). He hit his Hard cap on 19/4/21 and has played 30 rounds since attaining his LI.

My question is what happens when he gets to 10th July 2021? Does his LI get reset automatically and keep doing so automatically as each historical round is reached?

If not should we be resetting his LI manually and if so to what level?
		
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Surely, on 10th July 2020 his index then was 14.6. After 10th July 2020, at some point his Index will have increased (let us say it went to 14.8 on his next round. His LI would then become 14.8 from the date that next round was played, and so on. In other words, all LI is, is the lowest Index within the last 12 months


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## mikejohnchapman (May 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely, on 10th July 2020 his index then was 14.6. After 10th July 2020, at some point his Index will have increased (let us say it went to 14.8 on his next round. His LI would then become 14.8 from the date that next round was played, and so on. In other words, all LI is, is the lowest Index within the last 12 months
		
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Correct, 10 days later it went up to 15.2 and 5 days after that to 16.1. My question was whether the LI floats up automatically or whether I need to do anything to reset it.


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## Swango1980 (May 19, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Correct, 10 days later it went up to 15.2 and 5 days after that to 16.1. My question was whether the LI floats up automatically or whether I need to do anything to reset it.
		
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It will do it automatically. WHS has taken scores from Jan 2018, and I note from my record LI always updates, as it only looks back a full year.

It would need to be automatic anyway. No way any handicap sec can go through every members score, every day, to check if LI needs adjusted.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It will do it automatically. WHS has taken scores from Jan 2018, and I note from my record LI always updates, as it only looks back a full year.

It would need to be automatic anyway. No way any handicap sec can go through every members score, every day, to check if LI needs adjusted.
		
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I'm sure your right - wasn't sure if it sets the LI to what it was 12 months ago or worked it forward to set it to today's value. The reason I ask is that my HI was it it's lowest in December 2020 and my LI was set to that level - not what is was 12 months ago which is logical I guess. Thus my LI will last for approx 18 months.


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## Swango1980 (May 19, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm sure your right - wasn't sure if it sets the LI to what it was 12 months ago or worked it forward to set it to today's value. The reason I ask is that my HI was it it's lowest in December 2020 and my LI was set to that level - not what is was 12 months ago which is logical I guess. Thus my LI will last for approx 18 months.
		
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It won't last 18 months, unless your index equals that low Index for 6 months.

Let us say your lowest index was 6.0 on December 2020, and therefore that became your new LI.

Then, in January 2021, your Index starts to increase, going up to 6.2, with LI remaining at 6.0.

In Jan 2022, your LI will increase from 6.0 to 6.2.


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## nickjdavis (May 24, 2021)

Some of you may remember me posting this about a PCC calculation being made retrospectively for a club comp when all the scores were entered the following day after the comp....



nickjdavis said:



			Our understanding of the PCC calculation was that for any given day, the PCC would be calculated at the end of the day, based solely on scores submitted that day (within the restrictions of what scores are allowed to contribute to the PCC). If no scores were submitted on that day then there would be no PCC calculation made. If a score was subsequently entered (e.g. on the following day) then because no PCC had been calculated for the previous day, no PCC adjustment would be applied to the score.

We had a strokeplay competition played yesterday. All scores for yesterdays competition were entered by a committee member this morning.

A PCC has been calculated for yesterdays competition and applied to players score differentials! This goes against my (and my handicap secretaries) understanding of how things were supposed to work. I can confirm that no other scores were entered yesterday that may have caused a PCC to have been made.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it something that the authorities have changed in "the background". Or is our understanding of how things work simply wrong?
		
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We finally got an explanation from England Golf of why this occurred.

Essentially it boils down to....If, on any given day, no scores are entered and no PCC is calculated/triggered for that day, and then a batch of scores played on that given day are posted late (i.e. the next day), then the system WILL make a retrospective calculation of the PCC for those scores.


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## rulefan (May 24, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Some of you may remember me posting this about a PCC calculation being made retrospectively for a club comp when all the scores were entered the following day after the comp....



We finally got an explanation from England Golf of why this occurred.

Essentially it boils down to....If, on any given day, no scores are entered and no PCC is calculated/triggered for that day, and then a batch of scores played on that given day are posted late (i.e. the next day), then the system WILL make a retrospective calculation of the PCC for those scores.
		
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Interesting.


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## SammmeBee (May 25, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Some of you may remember me posting this about a PCC calculation being made retrospectively for a club comp when all the scores were entered the following day after the comp....



We finally got an explanation from England Golf of why this occurred.

Essentially it boils down to....If, on any given day, no scores are entered and no PCC is calculated/triggered for that day, and then a batch of scores played on that given day are posted late (i.e. the next day), then the system WILL make a retrospective calculation of the PCC for those scores.
		
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And if a/some other scores are entered....? (Then no PCC calculation is retrospectively calculated?)


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## rulefan (May 25, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			And if a/some other scores are entered....? (Then no PCC calculation is retrospectively calculated?)
		
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Late returns have the PCC applied but don't affect the calculation. Presumably if no PCC was calculated for that day it calculates one. If any later scores come in after another day it is applied retrospectively but they also take no part in the calculation.


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## nickjdavis (May 25, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			And if a/some other scores are entered....? (Then no PCC calculation is retrospectively calculated?)
		
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If enough scores are submitted on the day in question to trigger a PCC calculation, then the bulk scores that are late have no effect on the calculation, but have the calculated PCC applied to them.


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## IanMcC (May 25, 2021)

We have ClubV1. On the PSI it does not seem possible to register a 'Did Not Play' at a selected hole. You can select a radio button on the Competition/Scores page of the web browser itself when entering scores, but this function does not seem to be available on PSI or HDID. Am I missing something?


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## wjemather (May 25, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			We have ClubV1. On the PSI it does not seem possible to register a 'Did Not Play' at a selected hole. You can select a radio button on the Competition/Scores page of the web browser itself when entering scores, but this function does not seem to be available on PSI or HDID. Am I missing something?
		
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When entering 0 for a hole, there should be a popup asking whether the hole was started or not?


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## IanMcC (May 25, 2021)

Nothing pops up on our PSI


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## wjemather (May 25, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Nothing pops up on our PSI
		
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I'm not at the club today so can't check on the PSI, but I've verified HDID (both app and web) which display the prompt:
"You have entered 0 (zero) score for this hole, please specify which action you have taken.​Note: You may only select Did Not Play for valid reasons within the rules of WHS including, but not limited to, fading light, injury/illness or a hole declared out of play by the Committee, etc.​[Did Not Play]​[Played But Did Not Score]"​


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## IanMcC (May 25, 2021)

I set up a test comp on ClubV1 today, and tried to enter scores via HDID. There is no pop up there either. I think I need co contact ClubV1.


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## wjemather (May 25, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I set up a test comp on ClubV1 today, and tried to enter scores via HDID. There is no pop up there either. I think I need co contact ClubV1.
		
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I'm with you now. It's the same for me - works as it should for casual/general play rounds but not for competitions.


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## rulefan (May 25, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I'm with you now. It's the same for me - works as it should for casual/general play rounds but not for competitions.
		
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Don't you have the option of indicating whether a comp is 'qualifying' or not? I am no longer involved in setting up comps but talking to our ladies comp sec a few  hours ago I got the impression you did. Would/does this make a difference?


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## wjemather (May 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Don't you have the option of indicating whether a comp is 'qualifying' or not? I am no longer involved in setting up comps but talking to our ladies comp sec a few  hours ago I got the impression you did. Would/does this make a difference?
		
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Yes, the Q/NQ option is still there, but it makes no difference to score entry.
I've had the following response from CSICare: "Our Development Team are reviewing the DNP options and will hopefully get this added in an upcoming ClubV1 update."


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## Old Skier (May 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Don't you have the option of indicating whether a comp is 'qualifying' or not? I am no longer involved in setting up comps but talking to our ladies comp sec a few  hours ago I got the impression you did. Would/does this make a difference?
		
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When a comp is set up you do set it up as either a Q or NQ


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## rulefan (May 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			When a comp is set up you do set it up as either a Q or NQ
		
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Because of circumstances my question has changed.
The ladies comp sec set a comp as a 'qualifier'. It was to be played yesterday. Because of course conditions (flooded greens, fairways & bunkers) it was declared to be a non-q, However the status was not corrected and V1 scores were uploaded during the day to WHS as they were entered. The status of the comp was changed late last night but that did not affect WHS. How can these scores be removed from WHS? Can the whole comp be 'deleted' or can in individual player's record be removed? I see there is a 'delete' option on the players record display.


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## Swango1980 (May 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Because of circumstances my question has changed.
The ladies comp sec set a comp as a 'qualifier'. It was to be played yesterday. Because of course conditions (flooded greens, fairways & bunkers) it was declared to be a non-q, However the status was not corrected and V1 scores were uploaded during the day to WHS as they were entered. The status of the comp was changed late last night but that did not affect WHS. How can these scores be removed from WHS? Can the whole comp be 'deleted' or can in individual player's record be removed? I see there is a 'delete' option on the players record display.
		
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Not sure about comps. But, I know that if I delete a player's general play score on Club V1, it is also removed on WHS.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Because of circumstances my question has changed.
The ladies comp sec set a comp as a 'qualifier'. It was to be played yesterday. Because of course conditions (flooded greens, fairways & bunkers) it was declared to be a non-q, However the status was not corrected and V1 scores were uploaded during the day to WHS as they were entered. The status of the comp was changed late last night but that did not affect WHS. How can these scores be removed from WHS? Can the whole comp be 'deleted' or can in individual player's record be removed? I see there is a 'delete' option on the players record display.
		
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Can be deleted off the EG DB if @Swango1980 idea doesn't work however, if the course was considered fit enough to play on there could be an argument under who's authority was the terms of the comp changed?


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## nickjdavis (May 26, 2021)

The HandicapSec and I have just had an interesting email exchange with one of our members over an unsatisfied score intent from yesterday.

We noticed this morning that the player had an unsatisfied score intent and knowing that he was someone who had used the England Golf app several times before without issue, sent him an email asking if he had a problem.

He responded that he couldn't get the App to bring up names of players to attest his score but would keep trying.

Later on we noticed the unsatisfied score intent had disappeared off his record so we emailed him to say it had gone and that he'd obviously solved his problem.

His reply was a bit alarming..."no, I still couldn't get it to work so I deleted the round"!!!

We are now trying to find out HOW the player deleted his scoring intent because if players are able to do that then the system is a mess!!!


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## rulefan (May 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Because of circumstances my question has changed.
The ladies comp sec set a comp as a 'qualifier'. It was to be played yesterday. Because of course conditions (flooded greens, fairways & bunkers) it was declared to be a non-q, However the status was not corrected and V1 scores were uploaded during the day to WHS as they were entered. The status of the comp was changed late last night but that did not affect WHS. How can these scores be removed from WHS? Can the whole comp be 'deleted' or can in individual player's record be removed? I see there is a 'delete' option on the players record display.
		
Click to expand...

I was able to delete the records via the WHS platform. HIs reverted to where they were before. I'm now waiting to see what happens in HDID overnight.


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## nickjdavis (May 26, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			The HandicapSec and I have just had an interesting email exchange with one of our members over an unsatisfied score intent from yesterday.

We noticed this morning that the player had an unsatisfied score intent and knowing that he was someone who had used the England Golf app several times before without issue, sent him an email asking if he had a problem.

He responded that he couldn't get the App to bring up names of players to attest his score but would keep trying.

Later on we noticed the unsatisfied score intent had disappeared off his record so we emailed him to say it had gone and that he'd obviously solved his problem.

His reply was a bit alarming..."no, I still couldn't get it to work so I deleted the round"!!!

*We are now trying to find out HOW the player deleted his scoring intent because if players are able to do that then the system is a mess!!!*

Click to expand...

Apparently its dead easy to delete a score intent.

In the scorecards section of the App just hold your finger on the round and slide right (or left) and it comes up with "Delete Scorecard"....and asks you to enter a reason why you want to delete the score intent.

This makes a total utter mockery of the entire system.....pre-register a round and if you don't like the score you can delete it.

The only saving grace is that there is a report in the WHS system that allows you to see how many times a player has deleted a score intent (funnily enough....I'm the current leader at my club with 4.....but that's only because I've set up dummy rounds to test and demonstrate to folks how things work).


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## mikejohnchapman (May 28, 2021)

The MyEnglandGolf app.

Is it me of are we in a parallel universe regarding General Play rounds? I am trying to ensure we have people sign-in, enter their score and submit their cards using our ISV system (Club V1).

I see the latest missive from EG encouraging players to use the app for both GP and Away rounds and I can't see any way for us to manage this process. I get that the app controls location / attestation but the only indication I get to see whether a round has been played is to scan the daily scores report. This gives no indication of source of entry as the "entered by" column is always the club name. I know this isn't true as I can see visitor scores which haven't been loaded via our system - so we are flying blind.

In view of many of the other comments in this thread and the fact that GP scores are approx 33% of all scores submitted at our club I feel we are in an impossible position.

I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the process to the point it doesn't seem worth carrying on checking scores and just let it rip!


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The MyEnglandGolf app.

Is it me of are we in a parallel universe regarding General Play rounds? I am trying to ensure we have people sign-in, enter their score and submit their cards using our ISV system (Club V1).

I see the latest missive from EG encouraging players to use the app for both GP and Away rounds and I can't see any way for us to manage this process. I get that the app controls location / attestation but the only indication I get to see whether a round has been played is to scan the daily scores report. This gives no indication of source of entry as the "entered by" column is always the club name. I know this isn't true as I can see visitor scores which haven't been loaded via our system - so we are flying blind.

In view of many of the other comments in this thread and the fact that GP scores are approx 33% of all scores submitted at our club I feel we are in an impossible position.

I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the process to the point it doesn't seem worth carrying on checking scores and just let it rip!
		
Click to expand...

Good post, have you thought of giving Gemma at EG an email outlining your concerns. I personally think that HC Secs should be feeding back all concerns and issues arising from the app.


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## wjemather (May 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Good post, have you thought of giving Gemma at EG an email outlining your concerns. I personally think that HC Secs should be feeding back all concerns and issues arising from the app.
		
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The last few queries I have submitted the EG have received a very terse response directing me to go through county and regional advisors (despite making it clear I had already done that) - the clear message was that they are no longer dealing with direct enquiries.


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The last few queries I have submitted the EG have received a very terse response directing me to go through county and regional advisors (despite making it clear I had already done that) - the clear message was that they are no longer dealing with direct enquiries.
		
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Yep got that so flooded the county Sec and county HC rep, soon got access as the IT ability of our HC rep is nil.


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## nickjdavis (May 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The MyEnglandGolf app.

Is it me of are we in a parallel universe regarding General Play rounds? I am trying to ensure we have people sign-in, enter their score and submit their cards using our ISV system (Club V1).

I see the latest missive from EG encouraging players to use the app for both GP and Away rounds and I can't see any way for us to manage this process. I get that the app controls location / attestation but the only indication I get to see whether a round has been played is to scan the daily scores report. This gives no indication of source of entry as the "entered by" column is always the club name. I know this isn't true as I can see visitor scores which haven't been loaded via our system - so we are flying blind.

In view of many of the other comments in this thread and the fact that GP scores are approx 33% of all scores submitted at our club I feel we are in an impossible position.

I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the process to the point it doesn't seem worth carrying on checking scores and just let it rip!
		
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You have my deepest sympathies and your position is much the same as our club Handicap Secretaries. We feed back our concerns to the relevant authorities but its a genuine surprise when we receive a response, let alone a coherent one that demonstrates understanding of the issue.

We've gone through our county and regional advisors and to be honest the best they can do really is to quote verbatim from the manual....when you tell them that in practice things operate differently from what the manual says then they are lost like a whale that's navigated wrongly up the River Thames.


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## Swango1980 (May 29, 2021)

Can't seem to get on the WHS Portal today on the desktop, anyone else having issues. Screen just remains blank.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Can't seem to get on the WHS Portal today on the desktop, anyone else having issues. Screen just remains blank.
		
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No problem up to 30 min ago. Not been on since.


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## IanMcC (May 29, 2021)

Another problem with ClubV1 today. We ran a Mixed Greensome Stableford today. There is only one method in Creating a team on ClubV1. Once the team is created, it does not come up as 'Signed In' on the Activity log. It comes up as 'Added To The Sign In List'. Now, the team is signed in as far as the Hub is concerned, but at the PSI all teams say 'Sign In Required'. We had this a couple of weeks ago, when a newbie in the pro shop was not using the 'Sign In Immediately' radio button. She was signing them in from the matrix afterwards. This signed in a member first, but then adds them to the sign in list later. The PSI sees this as not signed in. I wrote to CSI with the original fault, but will have to nudge them tomorrow again.
Anyone else found anything similar?


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## Swango1980 (May 29, 2021)

I want to cry. Checking through general play rounds for last week. Spent nearly an hour going through the scores processed on Club V1, deleting ones not pre-registered properly, and e-mailing members who returned no score. Now gone on to the WHS platform and see a load of unsatisfied score intents for members who used MyEG. A few of these from away courses. Now I've got to start chasing these guys as well. Absolute nightmare.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Another problem with ClubV1 today. We ran a Mixed Greensome Stableford today. There is only one method in Creating a team on ClubV1. Once the team is created, it does not come up as 'Signed In' on the Activity log. It comes up as 'Added To The Sign In List'. Now, the team is signed in as far as the Hub is concerned, but at the PSI all teams say 'Sign In Required'. We had this a couple of weeks ago, when a newbie in the pro shop was not using the 'Sign In Immediately' radio button. She was signing them in from the matrix afterwards. This signed in a member first, but then adds them to the sign in list later. The PSI sees this as not signed in. I wrote to CSI with the original fault, but will have to nudge them tomorrow again.
Anyone else found anything similar?
		
Click to expand...

We had a greensomes comp to day with the same problem but it was cured by undoing the sign in option in the comp then refreshing the system and re-adding sign in which solved the problem.


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## IanMcC (May 29, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			We had a greensomes comp to day with the same problem but it was cured by undoing the sign in option in the comp then refreshing the system and re-adding sign in which solved the problem.
		
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You are going to have to talk me through that one, Im afraid.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			You are going to have to talk me through that one, Im afraid.
		
Click to expand...

When you set up the comps there is an option for sign in. We deselected the option refreshed the browser and then re-selected the option.


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## rosecott (Jun 2, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Has anyone yet run a Texas Scramble using the WHS handicap allowances?

I have been setting up the draw for our first one with our Seniors next Friday and the new handicap allowances are going to cause a bit of a stir.

You are seldom lucky enough to have it working out neatly in teams of 4 so you have to have a team handicap for a 3-man team which takes into account the disparity in opportunities between a 3-man and 4-man team. Our system finally settled on 10% of combined handicaps for 4-man teams and 1/6th for 3-man teams and that worked well for us. A 4-man team of handicaps 15/20/24/25 would get a team handicap of 9.4 and a 3-man team of 18/22/28 would get a team handicap of 11.3. It would normally work out at around 2 higher for a 3-man team, everyone was happy with that and results showed that 3-man teams had a similar success rate to 4-man teams

Now, using the new allowances, the same 4-man team gets a team handicap of 15 and the 3-man team gets 13 – a complete turnaround which puts a 3-man team at a huge disadvantage.

I know there was a heated discussion on another thread about the new allowances but this just doesn’t make sense.
		
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I have just had a definitive response on this from our County Handicap Adviser on behalf of EG/CONGU. The Texas Scramble handicap allowances are recommended only for competitions in which the teams are all the same size - either 4-man, 3-man or 2-man. For mixed 4-ball and 3-ball comps I will be going back to 10% of combined CHs for 4-ball teams and 6% for 3-ball teams or I might consider the ghost player option.


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## wjemather (Jun 7, 2021)

I was wondering if anyone else using ClubV1 seen this interesting bug...

A player registers a general play/casual round and enters their scores via the PSI after play as usual, but it does not synchronise to WHS. Upon investigation, ClubV1 has 27 or 36 hole scores recorded (depending on whether a 9 or 18-hole score was entered), the additional 9 or 18 being an exact duplicate of the entered hole scores. The only solution seems to be delete and re-input the scores.

I've only seen it twice, once with an 18-hole score and the other with a 9-hole score, from different players, and I can't see anything to connect the two.


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## IanMcC (Jun 15, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Another problem with ClubV1 today. We ran a Mixed Greensome Stableford today. There is only one method in Creating a team on ClubV1. Once the team is created, it does not come up as 'Signed In' on the Activity log. It comes up as 'Added To The Sign In List'. Now, the team is signed in as far as the Hub is concerned, but at the PSI all teams say 'Sign In Required'. We had this a couple of weeks ago, when a newbie in the pro shop was not using the 'Sign In Immediately' radio button. She was signing them in from the matrix afterwards. This signed in a member first, but then adds them to the sign in list later. The PSI sees this as not signed in. I wrote to CSI with the original fault, but will have to nudge them tomorrow again.
Anyone else found anything similar?
		
Click to expand...

ClubV1 have now fixed this. I confirmed it by setting up a test comp this morning and visiting the PSI. All now OK. They have also fixed the anomaly of signing in without using the 'Sign In Immediately' radio button. Before, this meant that the PSI did not see the player signed in, as the last message on the activity list was 'added to sign in list', not 'signed in'. Using either method is now OK though.


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## wjemather (Jun 15, 2021)

Another ClubV1 issue - with Foursomes competitions this time. It seems that Playing Handicaps are either being truncated or rounded down resulting in about half the field being given a stroke less than they should be; e.g. a team with Course Handicaps of 0 and 11 should get (5.5 =) 6 strokes, but ClubV1 gives them 5. Reported, but no response yet.

Edit: issue with handicaps in team formats being rounded down is being investigated; (hoped for) expected fix w/c 21 June


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## D-S (Jun 20, 2021)

We (English Club) have a player who played in a couple of events run by Wales Golf. The strokeplay rounds did not come back via the WHS portal. When asking Wales Golf why this had not happened, they advised that they would not link to our WHS portal and we would have to input the rounds at our end.
I had understood that this was the case for ‘overseas’ rounds and that definition included Scotland - but England, Wales and Ireland did link. Am I mistaken?


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 23, 2021)

EG Platform "Dropping" Away Players.

We seem to have a problem as several (10+) of our away players have been dropped from the EG Platform for no reason I can see. They are still on our Club V1 system correctly designated as "Away" but no mention of our club is on their membership record. It's nothing we have done. Is anyone else seeing this and is is possible for someone to check a couple of their away players please?

The players are not from the same home clubs so I don't think they will have been randomly "resigned".

Bit of a mystery but it means their scores at our club entered via HDID have disappeared into the ether!


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## IanMcC (Jun 23, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			EG Platform "Dropping" Away Players.

We seem to have a problem as several (10+) of our away players have been dropped from the EG Platform for no reason I can see. They are still on our Club V1 system correctly designated as "Away" but no mention of our club is on their membership record. It's nothing we have done. Is anyone else seeing this and is is possible for someone to check a couple of their away players please?

The players are not from the same home clubs so I don't think they will have been randomly "resigned".

Bit of a mystery but it means their scores at our club entered via HDID have disappeared into the ether!
		
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Picked first half dozen AWAY members I came across.  No problem. I am on Wales Golf, however.


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## rulefan (Jun 23, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			EG Platform "Dropping" Away Players.

We seem to have a problem as several (10+) of our away players have been dropped from the EG Platform for no reason I can see. They are still on our Club V1 system correctly designated as "Away" but no mention of our club is on their membership record. It's nothing we have done. Is anyone else seeing this and is is possible for someone to check a couple of their away players please?

The players are not from the same home clubs so I don't think they will have been randomly "resigned".

Bit of a mystery but it means their scores at our club entered via HDID have disappeared into the ether!
		
Click to expand...

I checked two of our away players. Both have full playing records on the WHS at both clubs.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2021)

On Club V1, when submitting General Play rounds, I've noticed several players who have submitted scores minutes after pre-registration. Most of the time, this is because they have simply failed to pre-register before the round. However, sometimes it seems that they HAVE pre-registered on time, but forgot to submit score. They remember the following day, but it seems to enter their score that need to pre-register AGAIN.

This is really annoying, because when I get round to checking the records, I have one record of them pre-registering but No Return, and another record of them pre-registering a few minutes before score entry. I can delete the no return entry, but not the entry that makes it appear they pre-registered a few minutes before score entry.

Surely howdidido should allow players to enter scores a day late after pre-registering, under the same entry? Of course, notifications to remind them to enter on day would be of great use.


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## wjemather (Jun 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			On Club V1, when submitting General Play rounds, I've noticed several players who have submitted scores minutes after pre-registration. Most of the time, this is because they have simply failed to pre-register before the round. However, sometimes it seems that they HAVE pre-registered on time, but forgot to submit score. They remember the following day, but it seems to enter their score that need to pre-register AGAIN.

This is really annoying, because when I get round to checking the records, I have one record of them pre-registering but No Return, and another record of them pre-registering a few minutes before score entry. I can delete the no return entry, but not the entry that makes it appear they pre-registered a few minutes before score entry.

Surely howdidido should allow players to enter scores a day late after pre-registering, under the same entry? Of course, notifications to remind them to enter on day would be of great use.
		
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The requirement is for scores to be entered on the day. Why would you want the system changing to facilitate score entry that was not in accordance with the rules? The people doing this simply need education.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The requirement is for scores to be entered on the day. Why would you want the system changing to facilitate score entry that was not in accordance with the rules? The people doing this simply need education.
		
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Because people forget, no matter how educated they are. So, either they need to enter it the following day, or we immediately apply a penalty score or suspend handicap. I suspect the former is the most desirable


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## wjemather (Jun 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Because people forget, no matter how educated they are. So, either they need to enter it the following day, or we immediately apply a penalty score or suspend handicap. I suspect the former is the most desirable
		
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People don't simply "forget" on a regular basis; and changing the parameters of the system to accommodate such people is not the answer.

Even if they are entering scores the following day, penalty scores (leading to suspension of handicap index) should be applied for persistent offenders because they are distorting the PCC calculation which affects everyone else who played that day.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			On Club V1, when submitting General Play rounds, I've noticed several players who have submitted scores minutes after pre-registration. Most of the time, this is because they have simply failed to pre-register before the round. However, sometimes it seems that they HAVE pre-registered on time, but forgot to submit score. They remember the following day, but it seems to enter their score that need to pre-register AGAIN.

This is really annoying, because when I get round to checking the records, I have one record of them pre-registering but No Return, and another record of them pre-registering a few minutes before score entry. I can delete the no return entry, but not the entry that makes it appear they pre-registered a few minutes before score entry.

Surely howdidido should allow players to enter scores a day late after pre-registering, under the same entry? Of course, notifications to remind them to enter on day would be of great use.
		
Click to expand...

I think HDID will be forced to change to ensure registration and scores will need to be entered on-site. Thus the option for doing it at home will disappear.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			People don't simply "forget" on a regular basis; and changing the parameters of the system to accommodate such people is not the answer.

Even if they are entering scores the following day, penalty scores (leading to suspension of handicap index) should be applied for persistent offenders because they are distorting the PCC calculation which affects everyone else who played that day.
		
Click to expand...

People do forget, and some can well forget on a regular basis. Some will sign in early morning, despite not playing later in afternoon. They play round, rush home and just forget to enter their score. People forget common tasks all the time, so it is short sighted to assume this does not effect people.

Of course, I will still send a reminder. However, my question was related more to an admin point of view. Once the player has finally enetered their score, it appears it has been pre-registered incorrectly, because they need to create a separate entry on Club V1. So, it is easy for me to delete it, if I have forgotten that they pre-registered the day before on a separate entry. I guess I could simply delete both entries, then re-enter the score myself, with is a pain in the neck.

I typically check general play rounds once a week. It has taken me 3 hours today, to go through Club V1 and MyEG entries, delete incorrectly pre-registered rounds, e-mail persistent offenders, e-mail the numerous players that have pre-registered but not returned and keep a record on a spreadsheet (so I have individual records to highlight potential persistent offenders)


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			People do forget, and some can well forget on a regular basis. Some will sign in early morning, despite not playing later in afternoon. They play round, rush home and just forget to enter their score. People forget common tasks all the time, so it is short sighted to assume this does not effect people.

Of course, I will still send a reminder. However, my question was related more to an admin point of view. Once the player has finally enetered their score, it appears it has been pre-registered incorrectly, because they need to create a separate entry on Club V1. So, it is easy for me to delete it, if I have forgotten that they pre-registered the day before on a separate entry. I guess I could simply delete both entries, then re-enter the score myself, with is a pain in the neck.

I typically check general play rounds once a week. It has taken me 3 hours today, to go through Club V1 and MyEG entries, delete incorrectly pre-registered rounds, e-mail persistent offenders, e-mail the numerous players that have pre-registered but not returned and keep a record on a spreadsheet (so I have individual records to highlight potential persistent offenders)
		
Click to expand...

Suspend the playing rights of persistent offenders. They'll soon remember they have actually got a memory. We have never had to go further than such a 'final warning' letter.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Suspend the playing rights of persistent offenders. They'll soon remember they have actually got a memory. We have never had to go further than such a 'final warning' letter.
		
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There are already one or 2 that are heading that way then.

I sent out several e-mails over the last year, and there are instructions on the noticeboards. However, I've had one guy who has pre-registered minutes before score entry on 4 occasions in a month, despite an e-mail telling him not to (which was read). I've had several players who have no returned several times. Excuses are: Sorry, forgot to enter score or I entered it on howdidido, no idea why it is not there

It is a nightmare, but I don't want to start suspending handicaps just yet. I know some members have difficulties with both technology and their memories (some are quite advanced in years, and I suspect some have more reason to have memory lapses than others)


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			There are already one or 2 that are heading that way then.

I sent out several e-mails over the last year, and there are instructions on the noticeboards. However, I've had one guy who has pre-registered minutes before score entry on 4 occasions in a month, despite an e-mail telling him not to (which was read). I've had several players who have no returned several times. Excuses are: Sorry, forgot to enter score or I entered it on howdidido, no idea why it is not there

It is a nightmare, but I don't want to start suspending handicaps just yet. I know some members have difficulties with both technology and their memories (some are quite advanced in years, and I suspect some have more reason to have memory lapses than others)
		
Click to expand...

You only have to suspend their caps for a week as shot across the bows or just suspend their playing rights for a couple of weekends. Bite the bullet.


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## nickjdavis (Jun 24, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think HDID will be forced to change to ensure registration and scores will need to be entered on-site. Thus the option for doing it at home will disappear.
		
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Just been in conversation with our handicap sec who mentioned...

_I played with a new guy yesterday that said that the group he plays with often wait until they are back in the club house to register their intent and then put the score in when they get home 2 hours later._

I sincerely hope you are right Mike.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Just been in conversation with our handicap sec who mentioned...

_I played with a new guy yesterday that said that the group he plays with often wait until they are back in the club house to register their intent and then put the score in when they get home 2 hours later._

I sincerely hope you are right Mike.
		
Click to expand...

I strongly suspect this will happen at ours, especially as golfers realise their scores get deleted when they sign in moments before entering score.


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2021)

Our ladies h'cap sec checks that sign in times are before BRS booked time. Exactly what she does I don't know.
All players must use HDID and BRS. There are no 'turn up' free times.


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## wjemather (Jun 24, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Our ladies h'cap sec checks that sign in times are before BRS booked time. Exactly what she does I don't know.
All players must use HDID and BRS. There are no 'turn up' free times.
		
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We do exactly that - check intent registration times against booked tee slots; anything that doesn't correlate gets followed-up/deleted.


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## nickjdavis (Jun 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			We do exactly that - check intent registration times against booked tee slots; anything that doesn't correlate gets followed-up/deleted.
		
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Do you have folks full time committee members who have the time to do such stuff?

We are all volunteers at my place with full time jobs on the side


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2021)

An announcement by HM. This may apply to other ISVs


*NOTE: *_Currently, we believe the following issue may be limited to clubs in England. We will amend this posting if this scope of this problem turns out to affect clubs outside of England too._
_We have become aware of an issue when HandicapMaster and Player Entry requests a list of players whose Handicap indexes have recently been updated by England Golf, from the England Golf WHS Platform, not all updated Handicap Indexes are being supplied by the England Golf server.

However, when viewed on the WHS platform, player's Handicap Indexes are shown as updated.

We have raised an urgent support call with DotGolf International, the WHS service provider.

To ensure that you have a full list of up-to-date Handicap Indexes, in HandicapMaster, please select *HANDICAPPING* drop-down menu, then *DOWNLOAD LATEST MEMBER HANDICAPS*.

We are sure this is an issue with the WHS service, and not related to the HandicapMaster software update released today! _


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Do you have folks full time committee members who have the time to do such stuff?

We are all volunteers at my place with full time jobs on the side 

Click to expand...

The number of casual/general play scores is manageable by our volunteer committee members.


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## wjemather (Jun 24, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Do you have folks full time committee members who have the time to do such stuff?

We are all volunteers at my place with full time jobs on the side 

Click to expand...

Takes me about 5-10 minutes; we rarely have more than 20-25 GP rounds being submitted each day.


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## wjemather (Jun 24, 2021)

rulefan said:



			An announcement by HM. This may apply to other ISVs


*NOTE: *_Currently, we believe the following issue may be limited to clubs in England. We will amend this posting if this scope of this problem turns out to affect clubs outside of England too._
_We have become aware of an issue when HandicapMaster and Player Entry requests a list of players whose Handicap indexes have recently been updated by England Golf, from the England Golf WHS Platform, not all updated Handicap Indexes are being supplied by the England Golf server._

_However, when viewed on the WHS platform, player's Handicap Indexes are shown as updated._

_We have raised an urgent support call with DotGolf International, the WHS service provider._

_To ensure that you have a full list of up-to-date Handicap Indexes, in HandicapMaster, please select *HANDICAPPING* drop-down menu, then *DOWNLOAD LATEST MEMBER HANDICAPS*._

_We are sure this is an issue with the WHS service, and not related to the HandicapMaster software update released today! _

Click to expand...

This was always going to be an issue at some point. The same or similar was happening with ClubV1 late last year when EG were constantly updating ratings, etc. Club Systems eventually put the time of their download back an hour or two.

Unlike HM, ClubV1 does not have the facility to sync the entire membership and I was told there are no plans to have such a facility (members need to be synchronised individually, and then the handicap list can be sent to HDID - which, according to the pop-up message, can take a couple of hours!!!).


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2021)

wjemather said:



			We do exactly that - check intent registration times against booked tee slots; anything that doesn't correlate gets followed-up/deleted.
		
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No chance of doing that at our place. Tee bookings done by bar staff / owner, scribbled on a sheet, and never check able by Committee staff days after (from home). Even less likely when we go back to turn up and play, no need to book tee slot


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## NearHull (Jun 24, 2021)

Can you tell me where on the EG database the times of registering and submitting are located please.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 24, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Just been in conversation with our handicap sec who mentioned...

_I played with a new guy yesterday that said that the group he plays with often wait until they are back in the club house to register their intent and then put the score in when they get home 2 hours later._

I sincerely hope you are right Mike.
		
Click to expand...

In the Q&A with England Golf earlier this year they said they were in conversation with the ISVs on this.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Can you tell me where on the EG database the times of registering and submitting are located please.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it does, I just don't think it allows a player to enter a score immediately after signing in. There is a window of a few hours, I'm sure someone will confirm the time frame. 

I know players need to be near the course to sign in. Is the same true to enter scores?


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## nickjdavis (Jun 25, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't think it does, I just don't think it allows a player to enter a score immediately after signing in. There is a window of a few hours, I'm sure someone will confirm the time frame.

I know players need to be near the course to sign in. Is the same true to enter scores?
		
Click to expand...

Dunno....I'll try it this afternoon evening.....got to go up the club for some non-golf matters so I'll register for a round and then try to enter a score later on in the evening when at home.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 25, 2021)

Question regarding 9-hole rounds.

We are an 18 hole course, with all the usual ratings for handicap. Now, I saw somewhere a slope rating and course rating for 9 holes (maybe on the original certificate), but this information is not in the Club V1 software (or WHS as far as I am aware)

A player has today submitted a score with ONLY the front 9 played. She also entered it on howdidido, with the back 9 just left as zero. This has not been submitted to CDH (presumably because the minimum holes have not been played for an 18-hole round.

Should this card be acceptable for handicap? If so, how can it be processed practically as a 9 hole round? If not, I can just get back to her to inform her 18 hole rounds are required at our club.


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## rulefan (Jun 25, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Question regarding 9-hole rounds.

We are an 18 hole course, with all the usual ratings for handicap. Now, I saw somewhere a slope rating and course rating for 9 holes (maybe on the original certificate), but this information is not in the Club V1 software (or WHS as far as I am aware)

A player has today submitted a score with ONLY the front 9 played. She also entered it on howdidido, with the back 9 just left as zero. This has not been submitted to CDH (presumably because the minimum holes have not been played for an 18-hole round.

Should this card be acceptable for handicap? If so, how can it be processed practically as a 9 hole round? If not, I can just get back to her to inform her 18 hole rounds are required at our club.
		
Click to expand...

Your h'cap sec has to set up the individual 9 hole courses on the WHS (and maybe V1?). A minimum of 10 scores must be played for an 18 hole round.

You can get the 9 hole information here. Just enter your club name

https://www.randa.org/worldhandicapsystem/Lookup


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## rosecott (Jun 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Your h'cap sec has to set up the individual 9 hole courses on the WHS (and maybe V1?). A minimum of 10 scores must be played for an 18 hole round.

You can get the 9 hole information here. Just enter your club name

https://www.randa.org/worldhandicapsystem/Lookup

Click to expand...

Using Handicapmaster I had to set up all the 9-hole combinations on WHS using the CR data and then had to download those scorecards into the Handicapmaster software.


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## rulefan (Jun 25, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Using Handicapmaster I had to set up all the 9-hole combinations on WHS using the CR data and then had to download those scorecards into the Handicapmaster software.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks. I just checked with our manager and that was the same with HDHD/V1


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## Swango1980 (Jun 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Your h'cap sec has to set up the individual 9 hole courses on the WHS (and maybe V1?). A minimum of 10 scores must be played for an 18 hole round.

You can get the 9 hole information here. Just enter your club name

https://www.randa.org/worldhandicapsystem/Lookup

Click to expand...

I don't have admin rights for Club V1. How do I know whether a person has played a 9 hole round, or walked in after 9 on an 18 hole round? Does howdidido just give players a different course to register on?


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## NearHull (Jun 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't have admin rights for Club V1. How do I know whether a person has played a 9 hole round, or walked in after 9 on an 18 hole round? Does howdidido just give players a different course to register on?
		
Click to expand...

The HowDidIDo App gives you a choice of all the courses that have been set up in ClubV1 when you select a General Play Round.


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## rulefan (Jun 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't have admin rights for Club V1. How do I know whether a person has played a 9 hole round, or walked in after 9 on an 18 hole round? Does howdidido just give players a different course to register on?
		
Click to expand...




NearHull said:



			The HowDidIDo App gives you a choice of all the courses that have been set up in ClubV1 when you select a General Play Round.
		
Click to expand...

That includes each 9 of an 18 hole course separately.


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2021)

NearHull said:



			The HowDidIDo App gives you a choice of all the courses that have been set up in ClubV1 when you select a General Play Round.
		
Click to expand...

Only if the 9 hole tees have been set up correctly on clubs V1 and WHS DB


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## Swango1980 (Jun 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Only if the 9 hole tees have been set up correctly on clubs V1 and WHS DB
		
Click to expand...

Who sets them up on WHS database? Club or England Golf?


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## wjemather (Jun 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Who sets them up on WHS database? Club or England Golf?
		
Click to expand...

Club have to request EG set them up on WHS
(form download)


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Club have to request EG set them up on WHS
(form download)
		
Click to expand...

But club needs to add and sync them. Best to talk to V1 who will talk you through the simple process. Not done it for a while so will be better going through V1 and talking to your county if you have issues.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 26, 2021)

Can club just insist rounds for handicap must be 18 holes? I wonder how many courses have the system set up for 9 holes?


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Can club just insist rounds for handicap must be 18 holes? I wonder how many courses have the system set up for 9 holes?
		
Click to expand...

No, it is my understanding that members must have the opportunity to participate in 9 hole qualifying events either casual or comps. Very easy to set up once EG has relevant info.

They will give you the necessary slope and HI conversion material for it to be set up on V1.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			No, it is my understanding that members must have the opportunity to participate in 9 hole qualifying events either casual or comps. Very easy to set up once EG has relevant info.

They will give you the necessary slope and HI conversion material for it to be set up on V1.
		
Click to expand...

Why couldn't they have set it up at the same time they set up the 18 hole courses then?


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Why couldn't they have set it up at the same time they set up the 18 hole courses then?
		
Click to expand...

Possibly because you can choose the combination for which 9 holes you might use. Some courses are 9 out and 9 back so they would use a combination and EG would need details of each hole used.


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2021)

Info required. We use pre printed labels for most of our comps. 
What I would like to do is to have the ability to actually print the comp label on the day when individuals sign up. 
Does anyone do this? 
What printer do they use?
 Is it easy to set up.


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## wjemather (Jun 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Why couldn't they have set it up at the same time they set up the 18 hole courses then?
		
Click to expand...

Courses (and tee sets/markers) were initially entered on WHS by clubs themselves last June/July, so any missing tees are down to the clubs, probably a result of lack of adequate communication/understanding. Since October, only EG have been able to make additions/changes.


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## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2021)

In a mixed match, are the difference between equalizer shots based on CR or Slope

ie

white - CR 71.5.  Slope 131
Red - CR 72.        Slope 135


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## wjemather (Jun 27, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			In a mixed match, are the difference between equalizer shots based on CR or Slope

ie

white - CR 71.5.  Slope 131
Red - CR 72.        Slope 135
		
Click to expand...

It's the difference in Course Ratings, unrounded and added to the unrounded allowance to produce the rounded Playing Handicap.

In your example those playing from Red tees would receive a 0.5 adjustment in the Playing Handicap calculation.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 27, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Question regarding 9-hole rounds.

We are an 18 hole course, with all the usual ratings for handicap. Now, I saw somewhere a slope rating and course rating for 9 holes (maybe on the original certificate), but this information is not in the Club V1 software (or WHS as far as I am aware)

A player has today submitted a score with ONLY the front 9 played. She also entered it on howdidido, with the back 9 just left as zero. This has not been submitted to CDH (presumably because the minimum holes have not been played for an 18-hole round.

Should this card be acceptable for handicap? If so, how can it be processed practically as a 9 hole round? If not, I can just get back to her to inform her 18 hole rounds are required at our club.
		
Click to expand...

The certificates we have are 9 and 18 holes on the same document.

To activate it EG need to define the 9 hole course and load it onto the platform - can take a while.

Once activated to define the 9 hole course, you just add another course in the definition in Club V1 and link it to the activated course on the EG Platform. In V1 you will need to add the relevant tees, yardages, pars and SI's as usual.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 27, 2021)

Does anybody know how to load a disqualified round on the EG Platform? I can see how to load a penalty score but do I just ignore the fact he was disqualified when entering the score.


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## wjemather (Jun 27, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Does anybody know how to load a disqualified round on the EG Platform? I can see how to load a penalty score but do I just ignore the fact he was disqualified when entering the score.
		
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Yes, just enter the score as normal if it is acceptable (which would depend on the reason(s) for the DQ).


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, just enter the score as normal if it is acceptable (which would depend on the reason(s) for the DQ).
		
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OK thanks  - it was a failure to sign-in to the competition.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			OK thanks  - it was a failure to sign-in to the competition.
		
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Was there any from of pre-registration?


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## wjemather (Jun 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			OK thanks  - it was a failure to sign-in to the competition.
		
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The score should only be entered for handicapping if you consider it to be pre-registered.

Per G2.1a(2) of CONGU's guidance, competition entry is not sufficient and "registration must be confirmed on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee", so I'm thinking that this would be by sign-in (which wasn't done) so the score should not be entered.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Courses (and tee sets/markers) were initially entered on WHS by clubs themselves last June/July, so any missing tees are down to the clubs, probably a result of lack of adequate communication/understanding. Since October, only EG have been able to make additions/changes.
		
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Just going back to this

Currently our club is only set up to accept 18 hole scores from the various tees (I assume like many). As a club, we'll need to discuss whether 9 holes scores are to be set up with WHS / Club V1, and what 9 hole scores we use.

In the meantime, if a player submits scores for 9 holes (e.g front 9) only, must they be refused for handicap, or are there any adjustments / fiddles that can be done (albeit, probably not as they never pre-registered for 9 holes anyway). I don't think we can just give them net pars for the back 9?


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## rulefan (Jun 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Just going back to this

Currently our club is only set up to accept 18 hole scores from the various tees (I assume like many). As a club, we'll need to discuss whether 9 holes scores are to be set up with WHS / Club V1, and what 9 hole scores we use.

In the meantime, if a player submits scores for 9 holes (e.g front 9) only, must they be refused for handicap, or are there any adjustments / fiddles that can be done (albeit, probably not as they never pre-registered for 9 holes anyway). I don't think we can just give them net pars for the back 9?
		
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For an 18 hole score to be acceptable at least 10 holes must be played. But see Rule 3.2 for how to record the un-played holes.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 28, 2021)

rulefan said:



			For an 18 hole score to be acceptable at least 10 holes must be played. But see Rule 3.2 for how to record the un-played holes.
		
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Yes, but that was not my question

My question was that, this player intended to only submit 9 holes (front 9), and they did. However, technically this was not pre-registered as 9 hole (as there is no option to do so). So, should it be discarded with a simply "sorry, 9 holes scores cannot currently be accepted at our club, but we will endeavor to facilitate this in the future once contacting WHS and Club V1" or do we manipulate the back 9 to make it count?


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## wjemather (Jun 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, but that was not my question

My question was that, this player intended to only submit 9 holes (front 9), and they did. However, technically this was not pre-registered as 9 hole (as there is no option to do so). So, should it be discarded with a simply "sorry, 9 holes scores cannot currently be accepted at our club, but we will endeavor to facilitate this in the future once contacting WHS and Club V1" or do we manipulate the back 9 to make it count?
		
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Since 9-hole scores are scaled up by adding a "17-point" score using the same 9 holes as have been played, you cannot (unless you are a 9-hole that is played twice) enter it using an 18-hole course by adding net pars and a net bogey.

You could potentially calculate the appropriate differential for the 9-hole score and then add an equivalent adjusted gross 18-hole score, but it's unlikely you would be able to match the differential exactly.

It's probably best to simply retain the score and enter it once WHS has been configured with your 9-hole markers.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2021)

wje
[QUOTE="Swango1980 said:



			Yes, but that was not my question

My question was that, this player intended to only submit 9 holes (front 9), and they did. However, technically this was not pre-registered as 9 hole (as there is no option to do so). So, should it be discarded with a simply "sorry, 9 holes scores cannot currently be accepted at our club, but we will endeavor to facilitate this in the future once contacting WHS and Club V1" or do we manipulate the back 9 to make it count?
		
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If you don't have a registered 9 hole course on the system then you cannot have a qualifier as the slope and CR will be different to playing the 18 hole course. 
Someone at the club can sort this fairly quickly by contacting EG with the necessary info.


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## IanMcC (Jun 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Since 9-hole scores are scaled up by adding a "17-point" score using the same 9 holes as have been played, you cannot (unless you are a 9-hole that is played twice) enter it using an 18-hole course by adding net pars and a net bogey.

You could potentially calculate the appropriate differential for the 9-hole score and then add an equivalent adjusted gross 18-hole score, but it's unlikely you would be able to match the differential exactly.

*It's probably best to simply retain the score and enter it once WHS has been configured with your 9-hole markers.*

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I think this is the best solution.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The score should only be entered for handicapping if you consider it to be pre-registered.

Per G2.1a(2) of CONGU's guidance, competition entry is not sufficient and "registration must be confirmed on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee", so I'm thinking that this would be by sign-in (which wasn't done) so the score should not be entered.
		
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He entered the competition and was drawn to play, He paid his entry fee on the day in advance of going out but forgot to sign-in via HDID. It only came to light when he tried to enter his score. Hence the DQ.

Not sure what the exact wording was as I am not part of the competition committee for the tournament but I would be interested to know what they specified.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			He entered the competition and was drawn to play, He paid his entry fee on the day in advance of going out but forgot to sign-in via HDID. It only came to light when he tried to enter his score. Hence the DQ.

Not sure what the exact wording was as I am not part of the competition committee for the tournament but I would be interested to know what they specified.
		
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Given he had booked in, was in the draw and paid up, surely he has been considered as pre registered (hence counting for handicap), and should not be disqualified?

If players forget to Sign In in our weekend comps, we only consider it to be a slight admin issue. No penalty, comp sec just needs to check same number of scores have been returned as number of players in the draw.

The only time Sign In comes into play is the odd midweek comp where there is no draw. Players simply sort out own groups and play. They need to Sign In for that, to ensure they don't shoot a good score then decide to enter afterwards (although, we do get players to book in also, so Committee have an idea who is playing). If they do not sign in, they are not disqualified, but simply removed from the comp. Their score wouldn't count for handicap either, due to no pre registration


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 28, 2021)

Mixed Foresomes Comps using Club V1

Has anyone set one of these up successfully recently as our ladies secretary can't get the handicaps to calculate correctly?


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## wjemather (Jun 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Mixed Foresomes Comps using Club V1

Has anyone set one of these up successfully recently as our ladies secretary can't get the handicaps to calculate correctly?
		
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We ran a foursomes comp a couple of weeks ago and half the team handicaps were a stroke too low on ClubV1. Having reported the issue to CSIcare, I received this response:
"We are currently investigating an issue where the team handicap is being rounded down rather than up in some cases for team competitions in ClubV1. Apologies for any inconvenience this causes – we aim to have the fix released on the week commencing on 21/06."​I haven't tested it since, but have seen no indication that it has been fixed yet.


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## rulefan (Jun 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Mixed Foresomes Comps using Club V1

Has anyone set one of these up successfully recently as our ladies secretary can't get the handicaps to calculate correctly?
		
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Is she using the correct template? Foursomes? 
https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/
What does she see as the difference between the template and her calculations.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 29, 2021)

I think so:

The issue is that when entering a mixed team, CV1 is not giving the correct team Playing Handicap. It appears that for a lady member on a team, CV1 assumes an incorrect Course Handicap and therefore inaccurate team handicap when the 50% joint Course Handicaps are applied.

We have tested both the 100% (as appears when going through the set-up template) and reducing it to 50% as we have previously done in our Ladies' and indeed Men's Foursomes comps. Have also tried a couple of different player combinations and again there are anomalies. The system requires 3 course selections before moving on so I went for Lakeland/Parkland, Yellow for Men's Course Card, Red for the Ladies' Course Card and for Course Card for Mixed Teams, selected Lakeland/Parkland Yellow Card (although selecting Lakeland/Parkland Red Card made no difference). This latter criteria I assume is selecting the tee for SI but clearly unlike some clubs, ours are the same for white, yellow or red.


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## rulefan (Jun 29, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think so:

The issue is that when entering a mixed team, CV1 is not giving the correct team Playing Handicap. It appears that for a lady member on a team, CV1 assumes an incorrect Course Handicap and therefore inaccurate team handicap when the 50% joint Course Handicaps are applied.

We have tested both the 100% (as appears when going through the set-up template) and reducing it to 50% as we have previously done in our Ladies' and indeed Men's Foursomes comps. Have also tried a couple of different player combinations and again there are anomalies. The system requires 3 course selections before moving on so I went for Lakeland/Parkland, Yellow for Men's Course Card, Red for the Ladies' Course Card and for Course Card for Mixed Teams, selected Lakeland/Parkland Yellow Card (although selecting Lakeland/Parkland Red Card made no difference). This latter criteria I assume is selecting the tee for SI but clearly unlike some clubs, ours are the same for white, yellow or red.
		
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Can you give examples of a team set up in V1 as opposed to the calculations using the CONGU template above?


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 29, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Can you give examples of a team set up in V1 as opposed to the calculations using the CONGU template above?
		
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In case you are wondering there is 0.1 difference in the CR between the 2 tees for our Lakeland / Parkland layout


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## wjemather (Jun 29, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			In case you are wondering there is 0.1 difference in the CR between the 2 tees for our Lakeland / Parkland layout
		
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Is your competition Stableford or medal? The difference in Course Handicaps should be accounted for by the difference in "play to handicap" score between the mens and womens tees if Stableford, and difference in CRs if medal.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 29, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Is your competition Stableford or medal? The difference in Course Handicaps should be accounted for by the difference in "play to handicap" score between the mens and womens tees if Stableford, and difference in CRs if medal.
		
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It's stableford I believe.


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## rulefan (Jun 29, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			In case you are wondering there is 0.1 difference in the CR between the 2 tees for our Lakeland / Parkland layout
		
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Very comprehensive but can you give me CR & slope for the tees used please.


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## wjemather (Jun 29, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			It's stableford I believe.
		
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rulefan said:



			Very comprehensive but can you give me CR & slope for the tees used please.
		
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And, since it's Stableford, the pars for both men and women's tees.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 30, 2021)

wjemather said:



			And, since it's Stableford, the pars for both men and women's tees.
		
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OK - Martin Hawtree did an interesting design for our place where par and SI are the same for all tees used. Hence:

Lakeland / Parkland course, Red tees - CR = 71.8, SR= 129, Par = 72  Yellow Tees - CR = 71.9, SR = 125, Par = 72

We don't (yet) have gender neutral tees so Red = Ladies and Yellow = Gentlemen


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## wjemather (Jun 30, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			OK - Martin Hawtree did an interesting design for our place where par and SI are the same for all tees used. Hence:

Lakeland / Parkland course, Red tees - CR = 71.8, SR= 129, Par = 72  Yellow Tees - CR = 71.9, SR = 125, Par = 72

We don't (yet) have gender neutral tees so Red = Ladies and Yellow = Gentlemen
		
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I'm guessing that you are at The Dorset. In which case, according to the CR database and WHS Portal, your ratings are as follows for Lakeland & Parkland:
White:  Par 72, CR 71.9, Slope 133​Yellow: Par 72, *CR 70.1*, Slope 125​Red:     Par 72, CR 71.8, Slope 129​As such the ladies will get a 2 stroke adjustment with the men playing from the yellow tees, (ladies "play to handicap" score is 36 points, the men's is 38) which explains the difference you are seeing.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 30, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I'm guessing that you are at The Dorset. In which case, according to the CR database and WHS Portal, your ratings are as follows for Lakeland & Parkland:
White:  Par 72, CR 71.9, Slope 133​Yellow: Par 72, *CR 70.1*, Slope 125​Red:     Par 72, CR 71.8, Slope 129​As such the ladies will get a 2 stroke adjustment with the men playing from the yellow tees, (ladies "play to handicap" score is 36 points, the men's is 38) which explains the difference you are seeing.
		
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Sorry - so used to playing the whites


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 30, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I'm guessing that you are at The Dorset. In which case, according to the CR database and WHS Portal, your ratings are as follows for Lakeland & Parkland:
White:  Par 72, CR 71.9, Slope 133​Yellow: Par 72, *CR 70.1*, Slope 125​Red:     Par 72, CR 71.8, Slope 129​As such the ladies will get a 2 stroke adjustment with the men playing from the yellow tees, (ladies "play to handicap" score is 36 points, the men's is 38) which explains the difference you are seeing.
		
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Oh my - my head is really hurting now!

So if we were playing off white and red tees in a mixed foresomes there would be no adjustment?


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## wjemather (Jun 30, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Oh my - my head is really hurting now!

So if we were playing off white and red tees in a mixed foresomes there would be no adjustment?
		
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Correct; both men and women would have a "play to handicap" score of 36 points.


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## IanMcC (Jul 5, 2021)

Here is a copy of a query I sent to CSI this morning. Anyone experience anything similar or know how I messed up?

_Good morning,

Maybe you can help with a problem that arose this weekend with one of our comps. At R****** Golf Club on Saturday 3rd July we staged the 36 Hole Scratch Club Championships. The 2 rounds were both played on that day.

There was no problem with round 1. All players signed in and entered their scores into the PSI. All players were then signed in for round 2, as can be seen on the Activity Log, but when they completed their round nobody could enter their scores on either the PSI or the HDID app. The PSI stated that they needed to sign in, but the Overview said they were all signed in already. I had to manually input all of the scores myself, which can also be seen on the Activity Log.

Is this a symptom of me setting up the competition parameters incorrectly somehow, or is it a known fault? I know there was issues with the PSI earlier this year with Greensome comps and not using the 'Sign In Immediately' radio button, but I thought these had all been rectified.

We do not run these 2 round competitions very often, but if I made an error I would like to correct it next time.

Many thanks,_


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Here is a copy of a query I sent to CSI this morning. Anyone experience anything similar or know how I messed up?

_Good morning,_

_Maybe you can help with a problem that arose this weekend with one of our comps. At R****** Golf Club on Saturday 3rd July we staged the 36 Hole Scratch Club Championships. The 2 rounds were both played on that day._

_There was no problem with round 1. All players signed in and entered their scores into the PSI. All players were then signed in for round 2, as can be seen on the Activity Log, but when they completed their round nobody could enter their scores on either the PSI or the HDID app. The PSI stated that they needed to sign in, but the Overview said they were all signed in already. I had to manually input all of the scores myself, which can also be seen on the Activity Log._

_Is this a symptom of me setting up the competition parameters incorrectly somehow, or is it a known fault? I know there was issues with the PSI earlier this year with Greensome comps and not using the 'Sign In Immediately' radio button, but I thought these had all been rectified._

_We do not run these 2 round competitions very often, but if I made an error I would like to correct it next time._

_Many thanks,_

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Not seen that myself, but we've not had a multi round, single day comp.

Bizarrely, I signed in to our weekend competition on howdidido at the weekend. I can actually guarantee that as well, because every time I sign into a round using my phone, the phone then goes to the howdidido log in page (as if it signs me out, but if I just reopen app I am automatically signed in again). So, I showed my phone to another Committee member to see if they get the same screen when signing in. However, later in the day, the competition secretary said there was no record of me signing in at all. Even though I entered my scores on my Phone as well, and Today's Golf asked for the Score Entry (presumably it already knew I had signed in)


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Really annoying thing with Club V1. It allows a handicap to be directly entered in Club V1, no questions asked. Not known by me, the golf club staff have been directly entering the handicaps if they have been declared by a new member. However, these are in no way linked to WHS, no CDH number, and so are just sitting on Club V1 with no verification that the handicap declared by the new member is accurate. The only way I found out this happened was that a player entered a competition, played in it, I didn't recognise his name and then when I looked at Club V1 saw he had no CDH.

I've now asked the staff NOT to directly enter new member handicaps in Club V1 (despite asking them not to do this on 2 previous Committee meetings). However, surely Club V1 should either not let this happen at all, or flag any member clearly who has no CHD linked to Club V1?


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## wjemather (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Really annoying thing with Club V1. It allows a handicap to be directly entered in Club V1, no questions asked. Not known by me, the golf club staff have been directly entering the handicaps if they have been declared by a new member. However, these are in no way linked to WHS, no CDH number, and so are just sitting on Club V1 with no verification that the handicap declared by the new member is accurate. The only way I found out this happened was that a player entered a competition, played in it, I didn't recognise his name and then when I looked at Club V1 saw he had no CDH.

I've now asked the staff NOT to directly enter new member handicaps in Club V1 (despite asking them not to do this on 2 previous Committee meetings). However, surely Club V1 should either not let this happen at all, or flag any member clearly who has no CHD linked to Club V1?
		
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Presumably this is to facilitate members who have their handicaps administered in a different jurisdiction without necessitating handicap secs inputting their handicap record into WHS; and also apply fictional handicaps to players who do not have official handicaps (handy for charity days, etc. if running them through ClubV1).


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Really annoying thing with Club V1. It allows a handicap to be directly entered in Club V1, no questions asked. Not known by me, the golf club staff have been directly entering the handicaps if they have been declared by a new member. However, these are in no way linked to WHS, no CDH number, and so are just sitting on Club V1 with no verification that the handicap declared by the new member is accurate. The only way I found out this happened was that a player entered a competition, played in it, I didn't recognise his name and then when I looked at Club V1 saw he had no CDH.

I've now asked the staff NOT to directly enter new member handicaps in Club V1 (despite asking them not to do this on 2 previous Committee meetings). However, surely Club V1 should either not let this happen at all, or flag any member clearly who has no CHD linked to Club V1?
		
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I've had this problem. Check with the new member that they have a CDH No and find them on the WHS DB and enter their CDH on V1.

Our admin have been instructed that if the member has a HC they must have a CDH.

You may also find in their history when you do this that they are still linked to another club.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

I'm on a role today. Presumably if a player fails to hole out in a medal, they are disqualified (Rule 3.3c)? If so, why does Club V1 / howdidido show them on the leaderboard as NR rather than DQ?


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm on a role today. Presumably if a player fails to hole out in a medal, they are disqualified (Rule 3.3c)? If so, why does Club V1 / howdidido show them on the leaderboard as NR rather than DQ?
		
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Because they have NRd, they can continue to score and are subject to a stableford adjustment on that hole, and any other holes where it is necessary for handicap purposes.


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## wjemather (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm on a role today. Presumably if a player fails to hole out in a medal, they are disqualified (Rule 3.3c)? If so, why does Club V1 / howdidido show them on the leaderboard as NR rather than DQ?
		
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Yes, I reported this some time ago (along with ClubV1 passing 18 NDBs through to WHS for unreturned scores) - at the moment DQs are a manual process (as is correcting the junk that gets put through to WHS when players don't submit any scores) but HDID still shows NR instead of DQ, although ClubV1 reports do show the DQ.



Banchory Buddha said:



			Because they have NRd, they can continue to score and are subject to a stableford adjustment on that hole, and any other holes where it is necessary for handicap purposes.
		
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But that is irrelevant for the competition; as Swango says, they should be DQd under 3.3(c).


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 5, 2021)

wjemather said:



			But that is irrelevant for the competition; as Swango says, they should be DQd under 3.3(c).
		
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No it isn't, Appendix J, it's an acceptable score


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 5, 2021)




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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 5, 2021)

View attachment 37381


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## rulefan (Jul 5, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			No it isn't, Appendix J, it's an acceptable score
		
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Appendix J is for handicap purposes only not competition results. 

_Appendix J - Disqualified Scores for Handicapping_


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 5, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Appendix J is for handicap purposes only not competition results.

_Appendix J - Disqualified Scores for Handicapping_

Click to expand...

So you'd go through all your results and amend all acceptable scores to a DQ rather than an NR which has the same outcome? I doubt that, never seen it anywhere.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			So you'd go through all your results and amend all acceptable scores to a DQ rather than an NR which has the same outcome? I doubt that, never seen it anywhere.
		
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As mentioned above, the proper result is DQ, not a No Return. My question was not related to handicaps, that is a separate matter.

One of the problems stating No Return is that it is simply not true. The player may well return their score, but with one or more holes not finished. This causes further confusions (and anger in some cases), when players are now being told that a No Return is not acceptable for handicap purposes. Many believe that means they are no longer allowed to quit on a hole if they are having a disaster, and now blame golf committees of pressuring them to hole out on a hole in which they are having a mental breakdown. That is clearly not the intention, and if the likes of howdidido used the correct terminology, it may address this issue to some extent.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As mentioned above, the proper result is DQ, not a No Return. My question was not related to handicaps, that is a separate matter.

One of the problems stating No Return is that it is simply not true. The player may well return their score, but with one or more holes not finished.* This causes further confusions (and anger in some cases), when players are now being told that a No Return is not acceptable for handicap purposes*. Many believe that means they are no longer allowed to quit on a hole if they are having a disaster, and now blame golf committees of pressuring them to hole out on a hole in which they are having a mental breakdown. That is clearly not the intention, and if the likes of howdidido used the correct terminology, it may address this issue to some extent.
		
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 Who says this? NRs have been acceptable for as long as I can remember.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Who says this? NRs have been acceptable for as long as I can remember.
		
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You demonstrate the confusion very well.

It is not acceptable to not return your card (which would fit the definition of "No Return" very well). It is acceptable to not finish a hole(s), this results in DQ for medal, but can still be used for handicap.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You demonstrate the confusion very well.

It is not acceptable to not return your card (which would fit the definition of "No Return" very well). It is acceptable to not finish a hole(s), this results in DQ for medal, but can still be used for handicap.
		
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What? You're the one saying above that NRs are not acceptable, nobody else. If you're telling your members that no wonder they are annoyed at you. It's simply wrong. 

And no, not physically returning your card is a straight DQ, it's absolutely not a No Return.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			What? You're the one saying above that NRs are not acceptable, nobody else. If you're telling your members that no wonder they are annoyed at you. It's simply wrong.

And no, not physically returning your card is a straight DQ, it's absolutely not a No Return.
		
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Let us be clear.

Failing to complete a hole in medal = disqualification. Still acceptable for handicap
Not returning a score = No Return (also DQ). Not acceptable for handicap (given that there are no scores at all to process)

"No Return" means that something has not been returned, in the case of this subject, the scores of that player's round. They have a responsibility to return their scores (even if they fail to complete any holes), therefore a No Return is unacceptable without a valid reason such as injury.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

By definition putting NR into a card DQ’s the person from the competition straight away - what’s the issue ?

And it’s a “non returned” score for that hole

As opposed to a “non returned” card for the competition which gives a different output on the system 

A NR on a hole allows the card to be used for HC 

A NR card doesn’t


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			By definition putting NR into a card DQ’s the person from the competition straight away - what’s the issue ?
		
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Back to my original point. Howdidido does not show DQ. It shows No Return, even though the player may well have returned their score.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Back to my original point. Howdidido does not show DQ. It shows No Return, even though the player may well have returned their score.
		
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That’s how all the ISVs display if someone puts NR in for one hole - it doesn’t need to display “DQ”. 

If they have returned their score then there shouldn’t be NR 🤷‍♂️


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s how all the ISVs display if someone puts NR in for one hole - it doesn’t need to display “DQ”.

If they have returned their score then there shouldn’t be NR 🤷‍♂️
		
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Personally, this is not something that has really bothered me, or I've thought about. However, the reason it came up was that the Senior's Handicap Representative e-mailed me today to say he has contacted their Competition Sec to DQ two players who failed to complete a single hole (i.e. one hole, they completed 17 holes) in last weeks medal. They, as discussed, appear as NR on howdidido.

My initial instinct was to say, don't worry about it. From a handicap perspective the score still counts, and from a Competition perspective they still appear at the bottom of the leader board. However, technically he is correct. Their official Competition Result should be Disqualification, not No Return (they returned their cards). I could then see his potential concern, in that players are being asked to ensure they return their scores for Acceptable rounds, yet when they do howdidido defines their result as No Return.

So, it got me wondering. If a player fails to hole out on any hole in a medal, why not directly show them as DQ, as it is not a subjective call.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Personally, this is not something that has really bothered me, or I've thought about. However, the reason it came up was that the Senior's Handicap Representative e-mailed me today to say he has contacted their Competition Sec to DQ two players who failed to complete a single hole (i.e. one hole, they completed 17 holes) in last weeks medal. They, as discussed, appear as NR on howdidido.

My initial instinct was to say, don't worry about it. From a handicap perspective the score still counts, and from a Competition perspective they still appear at the bottom of the leader board. However, technically he is correct. Their official Competition Result should be Disqualification, not No Return (they returned their cards). I could then see his potential concern, in that players are being asked to ensure they return their scores for Acceptable rounds, yet when they do howdidido defines their result as No Return.

So, it got me wondering. If a player fails to hole out on any hole in a medal, why not directly show them as DQ, as it is not a subjective call.
		
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You can ask the ISV to change it to show - NR - DQ if you wish but everyone knows the repercussions of not completing one hole , it’s not a new thing

why would someone DQ someone who has NR on one whole then the system has already de facto DQ’d them by nature if the NR 

Talk about trying to complicate things unnecessarily.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can ask the ISV to change it to show - NR - DQ if you wish but everyone knows the repercussions of not completing one hole , it’s not a new thing

why would someone DQ someone who has NR on one whole then the system has already de facto DQ’d them by nature if the NR

Talk about trying to complicate things unnecessarily.
		
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Get up on the wrong side of bed today? Calm yourself down.

They would DQ them because, by the rules of golf they should be DQ. The system has not DQ'ed them, you just assume it is DQ because it says NR. It would be a lot more simple if the system said DQ when it means DQ rather then NR when it doesn't really mean No Return. If a player was in the draw and had signed in, but no score was entered for them, I could understand the system stating NR


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## wjemather (Jul 5, 2021)

By the RoG players failing to return a score, or failing to complete one or more holes in medal play, are disqualified, and as such should be listed as DQ for competition results purposes. I'm not sure why anyone would argue differently.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Get up on the wrong side of bed today? Calm yourself down.

They would DQ them because, by the rules of golf they should be DQ. The system has not DQ'ed them, you just assume it is DQ because it says NR. It would be a lot more simple if the system said DQ when it means DQ rather then NR when it doesn't really mean No Return. If a player was in the draw and had signed in, but no score was entered for them, I could understand the system stating NR
		
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🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

No one has “got up the wrong side of the bed”

It’s a conversation

When someone NR’s a hole they a DQ from the competition because they are no longer able to win the competition ( in medal play ) - there score goes to the bottom and it’s “NR” next to it because they are out of the competition and have been “de facto” DQ’d

If they haven’t been DQ from the competition what has happened then ?

If someone doesn’t return their card after the competition finishes then you click the button that’s says DQ - and then enter “card not returned”


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

No one has “got up the wrong side of the bed”

It’s a conversation

When someone NR’s a hole they a DQ from the competition because they are no longer able to win the competition ( in medal play ) - there score goes to the bottom and it’s “NR” next to it because they are out of the competition and have been “de facto” DQ’d

If they haven’t been DQ from the competition what has happened then ?

If someone doesn’t return their card after the competition finishes then you click the button that’s says DQ - and then enter “card not returned”
		
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So you agree then. If they are disqualified, then technically computer should say DQ, not NR?

If someone doesn't sign their card, the results will have DQ next to their name once the comp sec applies that sanction. So, if they fail to hole out on a hole, it should also say DQ. My query was simply, technically speaking, why can that not be applied automatically by the system?

In previous threads, you have also shown offence when it is suggested players could be disciplined for failing to meet their handicap responsibilities for not returning a score. Perhaps this confusing terminology used in the ISV's is exactly why you have unnecessarily got upset over this. Because, the NR's for the two players in this case are no issue at all in terms of handicapping, and if DQ had been used, maybe there would never have been emotional responses from players being told they should return their scores for handicapping


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So you agree then. If they are disqualified, then technically computer should say DQ, not NR?

If someone doesn't sign their card, the results will have DQ next to their name once the comp sec applies that sanction. So, if they fail to hole out on a hole, it should also say DQ. My query was simply, technically speaking, why can that not be applied automatically by the system?

In previous threads, you have also shown offence when it is suggested players could be disciplined for failing to meet their handicap responsibilities for not returning a score. Perhaps this confusing terminology used in the ISV's is exactly why you have unnecessarily got upset over this. Because, the NR's for the two players in this case are no issue at all in terms of handicapping, and if DQ had been used, maybe there would never have been emotional responses from players being told they should return their scores for handicapping
		
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No one is upset about anything 🙄

The ISVs put “NR” into the overall score to highlight the people that have put a score into the system for a number of holes and that their score is still valid for HC purposes - as I said if you want the system to show “DQ” for someone not finishing one hole then raise the ticket with the ISV

If it “should” say DQ then I’m sure they will able the changes you require 

And the terminology is very simple to follow - not sure what’s confusing 🤷‍♂️ I have managed to follow it for the decade or so going comps and handicaps and our members understand the difference between a score not being entered for one hole and they are then NR’d and a scorecard not being returned - people already know that when they NR a hole in medal format they are de facto DQ’d from the competition so what difference will it make to have “DQ” next to their name as opposed to “NR”


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## HampshireHog (Jul 5, 2021)

I would say the majority of golfers know what NR means on a scorecard.

Effectively, they are both DQ’s from the competition and everyone should know that.

To me, and most people I know:
NR means the player has voluntarily DQ’d themselves but not completing the full number holes.
DQ’s are handed out by the organiser or committee for an infringement, which is normally visible on the scoresheet.

Personally, I’d be more upset if I had a DQ against my name.


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			I would say the majority of golfers know what NR means on a scorecard.

Effectively, they are both DQ’s from the competition and everyone should know that.

To me, and most people I know:
NR means the player has voluntarily DQ’d themselves but not completing the full number holes.
DQ’s are handed out by the organiser or committee for an infringement, which is normally visible on the scoresheet.

*Personally, I’d be more upset if I had a DQ against my name.*

Click to expand...

Given you know that returning an NR for one or more holes in a medal is a DQ, why would you be upset if that's what the results sheet showed?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Given you know that returning an NR for one or more holes in a medal is a DQ, why would you be upset if that's what the results sheet showed?
		
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Can you tell me what difference it makes ? 

If everyone knows what a NR means and what happens when you don’t complete one or multiple holes does it really matter that it says “NR” as opposed to DQ next to the name ?


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you tell me what difference it makes ?

If *everyone knows* what a NR means and what happens when you don’t complete one or multiple holes does it really matter that it says “NR” as opposed to DQ next to the name ?
		
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You keep saying "everyone knows", but they simply don't - assign them a DQ and many will ask why.

Why would you argue against having a DQ (which is correct) in favour of NR (which is not, even if some understand the DQ is implied)?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			You keep saying "everyone knows", but they simply don't - assign them a DQ and many will ask why.

Why would you argue against having a DQ (which is correct) in favour of NR (which is not, even if some understand the DQ is implied)?
		
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I haven’t found one single person who doesn’t know that when they NR a hole in a medal they are out of the competition - not one in 10 years plus , some didn’t realise their score could still count towards handicap over the years but they all knew that in a medal when they don’t complete a hole they are out of the competition. 

If it’s not “correct” to have NR next to the name when a player NR’s why does every single ISV do it ? 

So tell my there is a “need” to change it from showing NR to showing DQ ? 

What difference does it make to everyone


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I haven’t found one single person who doesn’t know that when they NR a hole in a medal they are out of the competition - not one in 10 years plus , some didn’t realise their score could still count towards handicap over the years but they all knew that in a medal when they don’t complete a hole they are out of the competition.

If it’s not “correct” to have NR next to the name when a player NR’s why does every single ISV do it ?

So tell my there is a “need” to change it from showing NR to showing DQ ?

What difference does it make to everyone
		
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Knowing you are out of the comp is not the same as knowing it's a DQ. Many would say they are out of the comp if returning a net 80+; it simply isn't the same thing at all.

The ISVs do it for historical reasons - because they were built primarily for handicapping not competitions, they followed how NR was defined and explained within UHS.

NR is not defined the same way in WHS, and ISVs are no longer primarily for handicapping. Things change, the systems need to catch up.

You are still not answering the question. Why argue against correctly showing a DQ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Knowing you are out of the comp is not the same as knowing it's a DQ. Many would say they are out of the comp if returning a net 80+; it simply have isn't the same thing at all.

The ISVs do it for historical reasons - because they were built primarily for handicapping not competitions, they followed how NR was defined and explained within UHS.

NR is not defined the same way in WHS, and ISVs are no longer primarily for handicapping. Things change, the systems need to catch up.

You are still not answering the question. Why argue against correctly showing a DQ?
		
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Because it’s a needless change - it achieves nothing , there is no need and as someone says being DQ for some has a bit of ill feeling when it could just be a consequence of poor shot etc why does it have to say “DQ” instead of NR

What is the practical real life reason for an ISV to make the change ?

Do you want to see 20 DQs instead of 20 NR’s 🤷‍♂️


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because it’s a needless change - it achieves nothing , there is no need and as someone says being DQ for some has a bit of ill feeling when it could just be a consequence of poor shot etc why does it have to say “DQ” instead of NR

What is the practical real life reason for an ISV to make the change ?

Do you want to see 20 DQs instead of 20 NR’s 🤷‍♂️
		
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You are making in little sense in your side of the debate here. Especially as you fully acknowledge YOU are disqualified when you fail to hole out in a medal.

So why not have DQ in the results? It is the proper result. NR is not. I can only imagine you are that emotionally impacted upon when seeing DQ beside your name, that you are much more comforted by having NR instead. Perhaps people need to be a little less hurt by a DQ, realising that 99% of the time a DQ has nothing to do with a player acting without integrity, but simply a technicality or unfortunate accidental oversight,  that this would not be an issue.

If you didn't sign your card, would you rather have DQ, NR or some other notification that gives you comfort?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You are making in little sense in your side of the debate here. Especially as you fully acknowledge YOU are disqualified when you fail to hole out in a medal.
		
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So why does it need to change - it’s shows NR which people know what it means 🤷‍♂️




			So why not have DQ in the results? It is the proper result. NR is not. I can only imagine you are that emotionally impacted upon when seeing DQ beside your name, that you are much more comforted by having NR instead. Perhaps people need to be a little less hurt by a DQ, realising that 99% of the time a DQ has nothing to do with a player acting without integrity, but simply a technicality or unfortunate accidental oversight,  that this would not be an issue.
		
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It is an NR - that’s the score that’s entered into the system - NR , simple , why the need to change 

I’m not impacted by anything.

Again What difference does it make to anyone - it’s been NR for years , it hasn’t made a difference to anyone so why change it 




			If you didn't sign your card, would you rather have DQ, NR or some other notification that gives you comfort?
		
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What does “comfort” have to do with anything- and there is no connection between not signing a card and NR 🤷‍♂️ - if people don’t sign their card or put the wrong score in etc they know they will be “DQ” with the comment next to it ( typed in ) - giving them the reason why 

Just like ok Saturday - two DQs - both for not signing their card 

So what exactly are you trying to achieve by wanting “NR” changed to DQ for every single ISV out there ? Including all those high level Amatuer comps ( just checked on some of the R&A comps and they have NR not DQ)


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why does it need to change - it’s shows NR which people know what it means 🤷‍♂️



It is an NR - that’s the score that’s entered into the system - NR , simple , why the need to change

I’m not impacted by anything.

Again What difference does it make to anyone - it’s been NR for years , it hasn’t made a difference to anyone so why change it



What does “comfort” have to do with anything- and there is no connection between not signing a card and NR 🤷‍♂️ - if people don’t sign their card or put the wrong score in etc they know they will be “DQ” with the comment next to it ( typed in ) - giving them the reason why

Just like ok Saturday - two DQs - both for not signing their card

So what exactly are you trying to achieve by wanting “NR” changed to DQ for every single ISV out there ? Including all those high level Amatuer comps ( just checked on some of the R&A comps and they have NR not DQ)
		
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But why do you seem dead against a potentially trivial programming change in order to present the correct result. 

No Return makes zero sense when a player has returned their overall score. They returned it. DQ is the result. Perhaps there could be a note next to DQ to confirm the relevant rule, just like when DQ'ed for other infractions. 

It just sounds like you are arguing to keep it because "they've always done it that way", but simply content you can interpret in your head as DQ. 

If it did change to DQ, would you be angry, frustrated or hurt. Or would it be a non issue to you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			But why do you seem dead against a potentially trivial programming change in order to present the correct result.

No Return makes zero sense when a player has returned their overall score. They returned it. DQ is the result. Perhaps there could be a note next to DQ to confirm the relevant rule, just like when DQ'ed for other infractions.

It just sounds like you are arguing to keep it because "they've always done it that way", but simply content you can interpret in your head as DQ.

If it did change to DQ, would you be angry, frustrated or hurt. Or would it be a non issue to you?
		
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sorry but you keep failing to answer

What difference does it make - what is the real world crucial difference to you and all the members for the change to be implemented by all the ISVs ? 

And can you really not understand that the NR is a “nil return of score “ as opposed to not entering the scorecard 

when they fail to complete one or more holes they don’t have an “overall score” - the score is NR - simple 

So what difference would the change make ?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry but you keep failing to answer

What difference does it make - what is the real world crucial difference to you and all the members for the change to be implemented by all the ISVs ?

And can you really not understand that the NR is a “nil return of score “ as opposed to not entering the scorecard

when they fail to complete one or more holes they don’t have an “overall score” - the score is NR - simple

So what difference would the change make ?
		
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I'm sorry, this discussion is completely over your head. Multiple people have responded, and you fail to absorb any information. Incredible, especially for such a simple innocent question in the first place.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm sorry, this discussion is completely over your head. Multiple people have responded, and you fail to absorb any information. Incredible, especially for such a simple innocent question in the first place.
		
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Sorry it’s not over my head at all - I’m fully aware of the question and your issue with what is displayed but as with the others fail to provide what the real life issue is - what difference does it make to everyone associated with the sport - 

the answer is “nothing” , it makes no difference at all , all golfers know and understand what it means to have NR displayed next to their name , unless you can provide a reason for the change to be made that affects the dynamics of the sport and the competition and the results 

Maybe try and remove the rules head and have the golfer head on 

If the R&A can have their results showing “NR” then I’m pretty sure all us golf clubs can get by without an issue having “NR” in the results 🙄


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry but you keep failing to answer
		
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That's amusing given you still haven't explained why you want the systems to remain inconsistent with the rules of golf and (as touched on earlier) themselves. All you've done is repeat insubstantial statements such as "needless", "achieves nothing", "no need", "why", "what difference does it make", etc.



Liverpoolphil said:



			And can you really not understand that the NR is a “nil return of score “ as opposed to not entering the scorecard
		
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For information, more than one ISV assigns NR to both “nil return of score (for one or more holes)“ and "not entering the scorecard".


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			That's amusing given you still haven't explained why you want the systems to remain inconsistent with the rules of golf and (as touched on earlier) themselves. All you've done is repeat insubstantial statements such as "needless", "achieves nothing", "no need", "why", "what difference does it make", etc.


For information, more than one ISV assigns NR to both “nil return of score (for one or more holes)“ and "not entering the scorecard".
		
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Can people not question “why” - when something the see is needless ?

Have you spoken to the ISVs to ask the question ? There are a number of ways to do.

The ISV’s clearly did it for a reason - it’s something that’s been going on for years without having any issues for comps scores or handicaps so surely it’s a valid question to ask why would it need to be changed ?

I don’t see the need for it to be changed - but you do but I’m unsure the reason why it would need to be changed and what affect it would have ? 

And how does the ISV know when the card is not returned ? It’s manual entry with IG and was with CS - so it’s then a manual entry with a comment box


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can people not question “why” - when something the see is needless ?
		
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Yes, but "why?" is not an argument or counter-argument.


Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you spoken to the ISVs to ask the question ? There are a number of ways to do.
		
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Yes. Answer: "Your query has been sent to the development team".
I've also raised this along with many other ISV related issues (e.g. the invalid all-zeros score for "no score returned" that gets sent to WHS) to England Golf, through our county/regional advisors. No response, other than "I don't know/can't help" from county/region.


Liverpoolphil said:



			And how does the ISV know when the card is not returned ? It’s manual entry with IG and was with CS - so it’s then a manual entry with a comment box
		
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ClubV1 knows by the club official clicking the DQ checkbox and selecting the reason (additional comment optional); the system then enters "all zeros" and shows a DQ (both in the scores and reports), but HDID shows NR instead (presumably due to the algorithm which displays an NR when any medal hole is a zero overriding the set DQ for display purposes).


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, but "why?" is not an argument or counter-argument.

Yes. Answer: "Your query has been sent to the development team".

ClubV1 knows by the club official clicking the DQ checkbox and selecting the reason (additional comment optional); the system then enters "all zeros" and shows a DQ (both in the scores and reports), but HDID shows NR instead (presumably due to the algorithm which displays an NR when any medal hole is a zero overriding the set DQ for display purposes).
		
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Surely it’s relevant in this discussion when someone would like to know why you would want the change ? 

So Club V1 knows by manually entering the Dq and reasons 

IG - click DQ , enter the reason and that gets put at the bottom of results with “DQ - *reason for DQ” 

If HDID changes a DQ that’s been manually entered to NR then that’s wrong and should rightly be challenged asking why HDID don’t publish the DQ


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Knowing you are out of the comp is not the same as knowing it's a DQ. Many would say they are out of the comp if returning a net 80+; it simply isn't the same thing at all.

The ISVs do it for historical reasons - because they were built primarily for handicapping not competitions, they followed how NR was defined and explained within UHS.

*NR is not defined the same way in WHS, and ISVs are no longer primarily for handicapping. Things change, the systems need to catch up.*

You are still not answering the question. Why argue against correctly showing a DQ?
		
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And yet the Scottish Golf App & VMS both show a NR as NR not DQ. Weird eh? Almost like that is absolutely the accepted method of showing where a card has been returned, but a full 18 holes scored hasnt!


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			And yet the Scottish Golf App & VMS both show a NR as NR not DQ. *Weird eh?* Almost like that is absolutely the accepted method of showing where a card has been returned, but a full 18 holes scored hasnt!
		
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Not really. I can think of no good reason why handicapping software should show a DQ.
Competition management software (the subject of the original query) on the other hand...


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Not really. I can think of no good reason why handicapping software should show a DQ.
Competition management software (the subject of the original query) on the other hand...
		
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VMS is competition management software provided by SG


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			VMS is competition management software provided by SG 

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No, it's software provided for handicapping that includes competition functionality. (edited)


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			No, it's handicapping software that provides competition functionality.
		
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No, it is literally the full suite of operational tools from finance, membership, tee bookings through to competition management, that entirely replaces HDID


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			No, it is literally the full suite of operational tools from finance, membership, tee bookings through to competition management, that entirely replaces HDID
		
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Sorry, but it's primary purpose is handicapping, not competitions. Indeed (as noted earlier) most ISV software has been built this way.
By the way HDID is now simply a basic interface for members that provides none of these functions; ClubV1 (or Club2000) is the backend system.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Sorry, but you cannot simply ignore it's primary purpose.
By the way HDID is simply a basic interface for members that provides none of these functio*ns; ClubV1 (or Club2000) is the backend system.*

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oh ffs, we all know that and tend to interchange the term. 

VMS was specifically designed to give clubs a "free" admin tool in return for our subs, that was its primary purpose.


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			VMS was specifically designed to give clubs a "free" admin tool in return for our subs, that was its primary purpose.
		
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VMS was given away as a convenient solution to a multitude of expected problems with WHS and the existent multiple ISV environment (see the blame game being played out between the likes of England Golf and the ISVs). There is simply no way Scottish Golf could have got away with charging for it.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry it’s not over my head at all - I’m fully aware of the question and your issue with what is displayed but as with the others fail to provide what the real life issue is - *what difference does it make to everyone associated with the sport* -

the answer is “nothing” , it makes no difference at all , all golfers know and understand what it means to have NR displayed next to their name , unless you can provide a reason for the change to be made that affects the dynamics of the sport and the competition and the results

Maybe try and remove the rules head and have the golfer head on

If the R&A can have their results showing “NR” then I’m pretty sure all us golf clubs can get by without an issue having “NR” in the results 🙄
		
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Generally, there is no catastrophic real life issues caused by this (but I will name a smaller potential issue after this paragraph). I simply asked the question on an Expert forum to determine whether the competition result should really be DQ rather than NR. It seems conclusive that the real result is DQ, but some (like yourself) prefer to see NR "because they know what is really means".

Potential issue it has caused? Well, let me try. As we switched to WHS, the handicap authorities informed Committees that we would need to discipline players for persistent No Returns. That is, players that register for a handicap round, then simply do not return their score (or even do not return a full round as they quit playing). This is absolutely understandable based on how WHS works, as we can't just keep providing 0.1 increased like before.

However, when this topic was discussed on forums, you amongst others got your knockers in a twist. Started saying this is absolutely not right, and that it is not fair in asking players to finish out when they are having a bad day, bla bla bla. However, most of your arguments were completely irrelevant. Disciplinary procedures were never intended for players who pick up on holes in a medal because they were having a nightmare. It is simply for those that simply refuse to hand in their scores or stop playing altogether (not starting final holes).

Now, if competition results published DQ rather than NR, then perhaps much of this confusion would be blown away. Many would no longer associate picking up on a hole in medal as a No Return, they'd see it as a DQ. When they are told they should not No Return, they will see that for what it is, not returning their scorecard. 

Just a thought anyway. However, personally speaking, it is not a serious enough question for me to take on the ISV's to demand change. It was a very simple question. What I do not understand is your strongly worded responses basically asking "what is the point". If you don't care, fine. But, I'm not asking you do change the issues yourself, so don't worry about it. It simply an issue that I think it is better to present the correct result on the Competition Results, rather than something different that many everyday golfers don't really understand.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



*Generally, there is no catastrophic real life issues caused by this (but I will name a smaller potential issue after this paragraph). *I simply asked the question on an Expert forum to determine whether the competition result should really be DQ rather than NR. It seems conclusive that the real result is DQ, but some (like yourself) prefer to see NR "because they know what is really means".

*Potential issue it has caused? Well, let me try. As we switched to WHS, the handicap authorities informed Committees that we would need to discipline players for persistent No Returns. That is, players that register for a handicap round, then simply do not return their score (or even do not return a full round as they quit playing). This is absolutely understandable based on how WHS works, as we can't just keep providing 0.1 increased like before.*

However, when this topic was discussed on forums, you amongst others got your knockers in a twist. Started saying this is absolutely not right, and that it is not fair in asking players to finish out when they are having a bad day, bla bla bla. However, most of your arguments were completely irrelevant. Disciplinary procedures were never intended for players who pick up on holes in a medal because they were having a nightmare. It is simply for those that simply refuse to hand in their scores or stop playing altogether (not starting final holes).

*Now, if competition results published DQ rather than NR, then perhaps much of this confusion would be blown away. Many would no longer associate picking up on a hole in medal as a No Return, they'd see it as a DQ. When they are told they should not No Return, they will see that for what it is, not returning their scorecard.*

Just a thought anyway. However, personally speaking, it is not a serious enough question for me to take on the ISV's to demand change. It was a very simple question. What I do not understand is your strongly worded responses basically asking "what is the point". If you don't care, fine. But, I'm not asking you do change the issues yourself, so don't worry about it. It simply an issue that I think it is better to present the correct result on the Competition Results, rather than something different that many everyday golfers don't really understand.
		
Click to expand...

So it causes no issues at all 

And the second paragraph - you can still carry out any “disciplinary procedures” regardless of what it’s called 

what’s this confusion you are talking about ? Picking up in medal is a “no return” - there is no confusion 

There was no strongly worded response - it was as stated a conversation, you just appeared to not like the responses. 

And why do you keep suggesting that “everyday golfers” don’t understand - maybe that’s the issue , you’re not an “every day golfer” hence the display of arrogance you display towards others - at the end of the day I suspect you are just a club HC/competition Secretary- the same as many of us on here are , I do it to help the club out and to help my fellow members - maybe you enjoy the power 🤷‍♂️


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it causes no issues at all

And the second paragraph - you can still carry out any “disciplinary procedures” regardless of what it’s called

what’s this confusion you are talking about ? Picking up in medal is a “no return” - there is no confusion

There was no strongly worded response - it was as stated a conversation, you just appeared to not like the responses.

And why do you keep suggesting that “everyday golfers” don’t understand - maybe that’s the issue , you’re not an “every day golfer” hence the display of arrogance you display towards others - at the end of the day I suspect you are just a club HC/competition Secretary- the same as many of us on here are , I do it to help the club out and to help my fellow members - maybe you enjoy the power 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

No arrogance at all, just no respect for you as an individual. 

Conversation over anyway, it is boring now. Ultimately, you confirmed my original question anyway. The true result is DQ. It is irrelevant whether or not the ISV's ever change it. I never asked for anyone to lobby for a change.


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## apj0524 (Jul 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			You keep saying "everyone knows", but they simply don't - *assign them a DQ and many will ask why*.

Why would you argue against having a DQ (which is correct) in favour of NR (which is not, even if some understand the DQ is implied)?
		
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This is so true every week I get asked why was I DQ'd, because you didn't complete a hole in the medal 3.3c, oh I thought we were playing Stableford


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## 2blue (Jul 14, 2021)

Interested to know how many 'Casual/General-play Rounds' your members are submitting, through other than the EG App.
We are regularly getting 300 a month...  yes 300!! I get the feeling from Clubs locally that most are much less than this. Not a Competition for the most ....  more concern at how we handle them after the 19th July & are we alone with this problem?


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## Old Skier (Jul 14, 2021)

2blue said:



Interested to know how many 'Casual/General-play Rounds' your members are submitting, through other than the EG App.
We are regularly getting 300 a month...  yes 300!! I get the feeling from Clubs locally that most are much less than this. Not a Competition for the most ....  more concern at how we handle them after the 19th July & are we alone with this problem?

Click to expand...

I have got the majority of our members doing home cards through the PSI which I have found easier for them and for me. Most of our away stuff is at comp level so if it's individual it's straight into the system.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 14, 2021)

2blue said:



Interested to know how many 'Casual/General-play Rounds' your members are submitting, through other than the EG App.
We are regularly getting 300 a month...  yes 300!! I get the feeling from Clubs locally that most are much less than this. Not a Competition for the most ....  more concern at how we handle them after the 19th July & are we alone with this problem?

Click to expand...

A handful a week, not had a week where we've reached double figures yet. For July to date we've had 6 in total. 

Our medals get 30-45 entrants usually, so a tiny portion of our membership entering general play cards


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## wjemather (Jul 14, 2021)

2blue said:



Interested to know how many 'Casual/General-play Rounds' your members are submitting, through other than the EG App.
We are regularly getting 300 a month...  yes 300!! I get the feeling from Clubs locally that most are much less than this. Not a Competition for the most ....  more concern at how we handle them after the 19th July & are we alone with this problem?

Click to expand...

We're getting about 50-60 per week depending on seniors and/or ladies competitions midweek (we run individual comps almost every Saturday and Sunday - we started in order to get people putting more cards in pre-WHS, but have continued since most people are keen to have them). Over half of our GP scores come from a couple of roll-ups (considered to be organised competitions but not setup on ClubV1), and almost all are registered & submitted through the PSI with scorecards in the box for random spot-checking, despite my efforts to get people to use MyEG and ditch the scorecards.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 14, 2021)

2blue said:



Interested to know how many 'Casual/General-play Rounds' your members are submitting, through other than the EG App.
We are regularly getting 300 a month...  yes 300!! I get the feeling from Clubs locally that most are much less than this. Not a Competition for the most ....  more concern at how we handle them after the 19th July & are we alone with this problem?

Click to expand...

I think we have had around 50 or so a month at the moment. In last 2 months, I've had to delete 20 rounds as they pre-registered minutes before score entry, and had to chase 21 players for no returns. However, this does not include a lot of scores returned on MyEG. Although I tried to check that as well, a lot of No Returns turned up to be actually returned via the App, but their marker was not registered so could not verify their score. The whole process of checking general play rounds is an absolute nightmare to be honest, so I announced I will not continue my position as handicap secretary after the next AGM. The job itself just takes too much time, and it has sucked out enjoyment for myself of just the hobby of playing golf.

We have much bigger issues at out club right now. As of next month, we will not have (unless the club miraculously find replacements) a Chairman, Secretary, Captain, Comp Sec or Handicap Sec (yes, me to), as there were mass resignations on Monday night following a crazy e-mail sent by the owner to Committee in the morning. Frankly, it has been a horrible year to be on the Committee, and the way the Owner has treated numerous Committee members, all of whom are absolutely great guys, no egos and hugely respected within the club has been appalling. You wouldn't believe half the stories I'd have to tell that have happened over the last year, it is just crazy.

I'll be glad to become a normal golfer again, stay away from the admin work to do with handicaps and the politics. Reduce the stress levels, and enjoy the game. Might need to be at another club though, I think it will take time for this mess to resolve itself at my current place.


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## 2blue (Jul 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I think we have had around 50 or so a month at the moment. In last 2 months, I've had to delete 20 rounds as they pre-registered minutes before score entry, and had to chase 21 players for no returns. However, this does not include a lot of scores returned on MyEG. Although I tried to check that as well, a lot of No Returns turned up to be actually returned via the App, but their marker was not registered so could not verify their score. The whole process of checking general play rounds is an absolute nightmare to be honest, so I announced I will not continue my position as handicap secretary after the next AGM. The job itself just takes too much time, and it has sucked out enjoyment for myself of just the hobby of playing golf.

We have much bigger issues at out club right now. As of next month, we will not have (unless the club miraculously find replacements) a Chairman, Secretary, Captain, Comp Sec or Handicap Sec (yes, me to), as there were mass resignations on Monday night following a crazy e-mail sent by the owner to Committee in the morning. Frankly, it has been a horrible year to be on the Committee, and the way the Owner has treated numerous Committee members, all of whom are absolutely great guys, no egos and hugely respected within the club has been appalling. You wouldn't believe half the stories I'd have to tell that have happened over the last year, it is just crazy.

I'll be glad to become a normal golfer again, stay away from the admin work to do with handicaps and the politics. Reduce the stress levels, and enjoy the game. Might need to be at another club though, I think it will take time for this mess to resolve itself at my current place.
		
Click to expand...

WOW.... that makes our problem of 300 GP's a month, even with all the associated card chasing etc......  rather minor...... even with 4 in the H/cap team the job is becoming too onerous to the point that anyone would be a fool to take it on needing to learn all that's involved with no monetary gain nor benefits other than that of belonging to & enjoying a smoothly run Club....   God, how old-school does that sound.....  close to a Charitable contribution!


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 14, 2021)

2blue said:



Interested to know how many 'Casual/General-play Rounds' your members are submitting, through other than the EG App.
We are regularly getting 300 a month...  yes 300!! I get the feeling from Clubs locally that most are much less than this. Not a Competition for the most ....  more concern at how we handle them after the 19th July & are we alone with this problem?

Click to expand...

We are about 200 per month and stable.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 14, 2021)

*Return to Play Protocols*

Having reread the above for next week I am a bit confused. 

I initially thought the rules would revert back to pre-Covid levels but reading them again the EG say you MAY (not must) revert. OK so it's down to the club.

In the next paragraph talking about competitive golf they say restrictions are s*et to be removed.* 

So if there is a comp on Monday that is acceptable for handicap are we going to be allowed to place in bunkers etc?

_The government’s removal of rules and guidance around social distancing __and congregation numbers mean that there are no restrictions on the golf course with regards to course furniture, sharing equipment, touching golf balls or the size of groups, beyond those set by the club._

_Competitions and Rules of Golf Competitions and Scoring - Competition and scoring for handicap functions, including the registration process, handling and submitting of scorecards, and administration *may* revert to pre-pandemic operations. _

_Rules of Golf and Handicap Provisions - Coronavirus-related changes to the rules of golf and all handicapping provisions that enabled the game to be played competitively during the period in which restrictions have been *set are to be* removed. _


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## Swango1980 (Jul 14, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



*Return to Play Protocols*

Having reread the above for next week I am a bit confused.

I initially thought the rules would revert back to pre-Covid levels but reading them again the EG say you MAY (not must) revert. OK so it's down to the club.

In the next paragraph talking about competitive golf they say restrictions are s*et to be removed.*

So if there is a comp on Monday that is acceptable for handicap are we going to be allowed to place in bunkers etc?

_The government’s removal of rules and guidance around social distancing __and congregation numbers mean that there are no restrictions on the golf course with regards to course furniture, sharing equipment, touching golf balls or the size of groups, beyond those set by the club._

_Competitions and Rules of Golf Competitions and Scoring - Competition and scoring for handicap functions, including the registration process, handling and submitting of scorecards, and administration *may* revert to pre-pandemic operations. _

_Rules of Golf and Handicap Provisions - Coronavirus-related changes to the rules of golf and all handicapping provisions that enabled the game to be played competitively during the period in which restrictions have been *set are to be* removed. _

Click to expand...

Not read through guidelines yet, but a local established cub has issues the following to all members: From 20th July, flags can be removed, rakes in bunkers and no placing in bunkers permitted


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not read through guidelines yet, but a local established cub has issues the following to all members: From 20th July, flags can be removed, rakes in bunkers and no placing in bunkers permitted
		
Click to expand...

Just found new guidance from CONGU which applies to England Golf:

Return-of-Qualifying-Scores-WHS.pdf (congu.co.uk)

Looks like we are back to normal.


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## rulefan (Jul 14, 2021)

https://www.englandgolf.org/downloa... Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,13QO4,3BX4NO,51494,1


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## NearHull (Jul 14, 2021)

I view the advice as an abdication of responsibility.  CONGU is demonstrating a lack of leadership and pushing the score return processes down to Clubs.  There will be others who see this advice as allowing Club to be flexible.  But , it doesn’t align with rake and pin handling.

I am deeply disappointed in CONGU.


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## NearHull (Jul 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



https://www.englandgolf.org/download/a-framework-for-playing-golf/?utm_campaign=1854148_05.07.21 England Golf Update Changes from 19 July&utm_medium=email&utm_source=The England Golf Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,13QO4,3BX4NO,51494,1

Click to expand...

Rulefan, 
if I’ve got this right, EG issued their advice on 6 Jul, the CONGU reversal was issued on 13 Jul.  Should we expect EG to also reverse and pass the buck?


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## rulefan (Jul 15, 2021)

What particular points are you referring to?

But as the England Gov't is putting the responsibility on to the public and shops doesn't it seem reasonable that clubs should be treated like shops in taking responsibility for their business?

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2...-rules-in-england-can-be-removed-from-july-19


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## NearHull (Jul 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			What particular points are you referring to?

But as the England Gov't is putting the responsibility on to the public and shops doesn't it seem reasonable that clubs should be treated like shops in taking responsibility for their business?

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2...-rules-in-england-can-be-removed-from-july-19

Click to expand...

Sorry, I wasnt having a go,  admittedly, i was pressing the keys very hard, I should now calm down and relax.

 Im just disappointed that the ruling bodies appear to make a decision then, a week later, reverse part of that decision.  Had they even reversed all of the decision, that may have had some logic, but concentrating on the score return elements isn’t logical.  It is the one area of playing golf under COVID restritions that has caused us the most problems.  

my rant is fully ranted


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## IanMcC (Jul 17, 2021)

Another ClubV1 issue arose today, or maybe I am just too thick to fully comprehend what is required. We ran a Mixed Greensome Stableford comp at the club, and set it up on ClubV1. Ladies off of red tees and gents off of yellows. The scoring was done off the red tees. Usual 60%/40% split for Playing Handicap.
The system has allocated every Lady an extra one shot on to her Course Handicap. Is this a system error, or is it some kind of equity adjustment I am not aware of? The yellows are 127/71.3, par 72 and the reds are 128/73.8, par 74.


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Another ClubV1 issue arose today, or maybe I am just too thick to fully comprehend what is required. We ran a Mixed Greensome Stableford comp at the club, and set it up on ClubV1. Ladies off of red tees and gents off of yellows. The scoring was done off the red tees. Usual 60%/40% split for Playing Handicap.
The system has allocated every Lady an extra one shot on to her Course Handicap. Is this a system error, or is it some kind of equity adjustment I am not aware of? The yellows are 127/71.3 and the reds are 128/73.8.
		
Click to expand...

Equity adjustment


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## IanMcC (Jul 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Equity adjustment
		
Click to expand...

I think it must be, but can you explain it to me, please? Why is equity adjustment required when each team is one lady and one gent, with all of the ladies playing one course and all the gents the other?


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I think it must be, but can you explain it to me, please? Why is equity adjustment required when each team is one lady and one gent, with all of the ladies playing one course and all the gents the other?
		
Click to expand...

Different course rating


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## IanMcC (Jul 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Different course rating
		
Click to expand...

If it was purely CR then the difference would be 2 shots. Or is it 50% difference? There is something in the guidance document. I don't consider myself particularly thick, but I can't make head nor tail of it! Why is an equity adjustment required in a team comp when each team has one player using each tee?


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## rulefan (Jul 17, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I think it must be, but can you explain it to me, please? Why is equity adjustment required when each team is one lady and one gent, with all of the ladies playing one course and all the gents the other?
		
Click to expand...

*Clause 6.2b(ii)*


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## IanMcC (Jul 17, 2021)

I understand Clause 6.2b(ii). We use it every week in our Stableford comps where the men and ladies play against each other in a singles stableford comp using different tees. Our yellows to reds does work out as the ladies receiving one extra shot. Its maybe a blind spot on my part, but for the life of me I cannot see how this is relevant in a Mixed Greensome comp. The clause uses the phrase 'play to handicap'. How can you 'play to handicap' when you are only hitting every other shot, and someone using another set of tees is hitting the rest?


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## wjemather (Jul 17, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I understand Clause 6.2b(ii). We use it every week in our Stableford comps where the men and ladies play against each other in a singles stableford comp using different tees. Our yellows to reds does work out as the ladies receiving one extra shot. Its maybe a blind spot on my part, but for the life of me I cannot see how this is relevant in a Mixed Greensome comp. The clause uses the phrase 'play to handicap'. How can you 'play to handicap' when you are only hitting every other shot, and someone using another set of tees is hitting the rest?
		
Click to expand...

In mixed greensomes, teams can be M-F, F-F or M-M. For simplicity, the calculation is the same even if all pairs are M-F.


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## IanMcC (Jul 17, 2021)

wjemather said:



			In mixed greensomes, teams can be M-F, F-F or M-M. For simplicity, the calculation is the same even if all pairs are M-F.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. Your succinct description explains everything. I wonder if there have ever been any mixed greensome comps in the history of golf that have had M-M or F-F allowed, however. I would doubt it.


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## wjemather (Jul 18, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Thanks for this. Your succinct description explains everything. I wonder if there have ever been any mixed greensome comps in the history of golf that have had M-M or F-F allowed, however. I would doubt it.
		
Click to expand...

It's likely that we will have soon, as we continue to open up the traditionally "men only" general club competitions to all members.


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## rulefan (Jul 18, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Thanks for this. Your succinct description explains everything. I wonder if there have ever been any mixed greensome comps in the history of golf that have had M-M or F-F allowed, however. I would doubt it.
		
Click to expand...

We have just run a successful mixed scramble (MMMM, MMFF, FFFF). I'm sure we'll see a mixed greensome or foursome as a Captains' social sooner or later.


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## Old Skier (Jul 18, 2021)

rulefan said:



			We have just run a successful mixed scramble (MMMM, MMFF, FFFF). I'm sure we'll see a mixed greensome or foursome as a Captains' social sooner or later.
		
Click to expand...

We have been doing mixed scrambles/any combination  for years. As majority were drawn you didn’t know who you where playing with until the draw which was always balanced as much as possible.


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## nickjdavis (Jul 21, 2021)

Quick Q for our Scottish Handicap Admins. 

Can you confirm if the (course rating minus par) part of the Playing Handicap calculation is used in Scotland? 

Cheers. 

Would explain why I got a shot less than I was expecting when playing an open comp yesterday!!


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## rulefan (Jul 21, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Quick Q for our Scottish Handicap Admins.

Can you confirm if the (course rating minus par) part of the Playing Handicap calculation is used in Scotland?

Cheers.

Would explain why I got a shot less than I was expecting when playing an open comp yesterday!!
		
Click to expand...

I believe not but could it have been -_ "For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap" ? _


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## nickjdavis (Jul 21, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I believe not but could it have been -_ "For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap" ? _

Click to expand...

Even using the full calculated CH I can't figure out how they arrived at my PH.

Index: 8.7
Slope: 118
CR: 69.4
Par:70

I think it works out at 9....i got given 8.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 21, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Even using the full calculated CH I can't figure out how they arrived at my PH.

Index: 8.7
Slope: 118
CR: 69.4
Par:70

I think it works out at 9....i got given 8.
		
Click to expand...

Was the comp set up as a mixed field, thus further adjustments being made due to the different sets of tees and course ratings that will apply to people?


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## rosecott (Jul 21, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Even using the full calculated CH I can't figure out how they arrived at my PH.

Index: 8.7
Slope: 118
CR: 69.4
Par:70

I think it works out at 9....i got given 8.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps there is a Sassenach rule.


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## nickjdavis (Jul 21, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Was the comp set up as a mixed field, thus further adjustments being made due to the different sets of tees and course ratings that will apply to people?
		
Click to expand...

I'd considered that as a possibility but I'm pretty certain it was a men only comp.


rosecott said:



			Perhaps there is a Sassenach rule.
		
Click to expand...

considered that as well!!!😃

will see what I get for today's comp!!!


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## Swango1980 (Jul 21, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I'd considered that as a possibility but I'm pretty certain it was a men only comp.


considered that as well!!!😃

will see what I get for today's comp!!!
		
Click to expand...

It may have been set up as mixed, but no women actually enter. Not sure what happens if that is the case, not done it. But, I assume it would make the additional adjustments regardless?


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## rulefan (Jul 21, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Even using the full calculated CH I can't figure out how they arrived at my PH.

Index: 8.7
Slope: 118
CR: 69.4
Par:70

I think it works out at 9....i got given 8.
		
Click to expand...

What was your Course Handicap showing as?


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## nickjdavis (Jul 22, 2021)

rulefan said:



			What was your Course Handicap showing as?
		
Click to expand...

The prefilled card showed CH = 9 and PH = 8.

(the exact ungrounded CH would have been 9.0849....)


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## rulefan (Jul 22, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			The prefilled card showed CH = 9 and PH = 8.

(the exact ungrounded CH would have been 9.0849....)
		
Click to expand...

* 95% = 8.6  which is what I worked it out as.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 22, 2021)

I'm beginning to hate Texas Scrambles!

For yesterday's Texas Scramble Club V1 decided to round (up or down) all the team handicaps, rather than going to one decimal place. Although when the bookings were made they did go to one decimal place. This actually made a difference because one team finished 2nd with 53.6 (54) whilst the next team finished with 54.2 (54), and of course the team finishing 3rd were placed 2nd on countback!!!!

ClubV1 claim this is a fix, and Texas Scramble handicaps should be rounded!!

Is this news? Or a known change?

In response to my question to them I received:

_This was part of one the last ClubV1 updates within the past month. Please contact the WHS/Golf Union for further guidance on Texas Scramble calculations._


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## wjemather (Jul 22, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm beginning to hate Texas Scrambles!

For yesterday's Texas Scramble Club V1 decided to round (up or down) all the team handicaps, rather than going to one decimal place. Although when the bookings were made they did go to one decimal place. This actually made a difference because one team finished 2nd with 53.6 (54) whilst the next team finished with 54.2 (54), and of course the team finishing 3rd were placed 2nd on countback!!!!

ClubV1 claim this is a fix, and Texas Scramble handicaps should be rounded!!

Is this news? Or a known change?

In response to my question to them I received:

_This was part of one the last ClubV1 updates within the past month. Please contact the WHS/Golf Union for further guidance on Texas Scramble calculations._

Click to expand...

Yes, under WHS, Playing Handicaps are rounded to the nearest whole number (Rule 6.2a).
You should be able to manually override the scorecard countback results if you wish to use something else, e.g. the decimal, as a tiebreaker?


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## rulefan (Jul 22, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm beginning to hate Texas Scrambles!

For yesterday's Texas Scramble Club V1 decided to round (up or down) all the team handicaps, rather than going to one decimal place. Although when the bookings were made they did go to one decimal place. This actually made a difference because one team finished 2nd with 53.6 (54) whilst the next team finished with 54.2 (54), and of course the team finishing 3rd were placed 2nd on countback!!!!

ClubV1 claim this is a fix, and Texas Scramble handicaps should be rounded!!

Is this news? Or a known change?

In response to my question to them I received:

_This was part of one the last ClubV1 updates within the past month. Please contact the WHS/Golf Union for further guidance on Texas Scramble calculations._

Click to expand...

The WHS *Mixed Tee Handicap Calculator (v1.10)* automatically rounds the team's playing handicaps.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, under WHS, Playing Handicaps are rounded to the nearest whole number (Rule 6.2a).
You should be able to manually override the scorecard countback results if you wish to use something else, e.g. the decimal, as a tiebreaker?
		
Click to expand...

Well Club Systems have issued an update note today confirming they have moved to whole numbers for team events which explains the change. Unfortunate timing as the booking sheet showed 1 decimal place.


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## nickjdavis (Jul 24, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			The prefilled card showed CH = 9 and PH = 8.

(the exact ungrounded CH would have been 9.0849....)
		
Click to expand...

I've now seen the official results.

For the round on Tuesday where my card had been written out and showing CH:9 ; PH:8.....the official result shows my PH as being 11 !!!!! (On my card the original printed label said CH:12 ; PH:11 but these had been crossed out and replaced by the 9 (correct) and 8 (disputed) respectively.....when I originally entered the comp my index was such that my CH would have been 12 so I get where the printed label came from)....I actually NR'd the round after putting two balls OOB on on one hole....so I wonder if they simply didn't bother to correct things in the "system".

For the rounds on Wednesday and Thursday where I was responsible for filling in my own card details I made it clear on the card that my index was 8.7 and the official results show me with a PH of 9....which is what I always said it should be.

(all of these three rounds were played over the same course)

The sooner we get the home unions systems talking to each other the better in my opinion!!!!


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2021)

Well, now that I've joined another club ( a well established club one would say) I am now getting a taste of issues with implementing WHS, especially when there is confusion on what is required.

I handed in my first general play rounds. Pre-registered, entered score on howdidido after, and then submitted physical signed card in the relevant box. However, a few days later, it became clear that my score appeared twice on my record, and all my playing partners scores ended up on their record (despite them never having any intention to submit card for handicap). Turns out, someone at the club enters every score on every card when they collect the physical cards.

I've now been told by the club that it should be made clear on the card if the scores have already been entered, otherwise they will have to check each players individual record first to see if this is actually the case (a step they do not want to take). Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count. Therefore, that is why they enter every score they can from all the physical cards, and that if I do not want the scores to count, they should be scored out (ironically, even if every score did have to count, scoring any score out would then invalidate that requirement).

Concerning really. I've randomly looked at the record of about a dozen members, and most had duplicate rounds on their record where the same thing must have happened (some more than one pair of duplicate rounds). No idea how many scores have been entered for players who had never pre-registered. It also suggests that a player can easily manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards by effectively choosing what general play rounds to submit (they can even get that round to count twice if they enter it themselves, and then someone at club also enters it later).

It makes me wonder how well other clubs have been able to implement WHS since its launch. I've spent so much time over the last 2 or so years researching it and finding out more and more info, much of it on here. I fully expect people in this forum have also been able to get to grips with it, maybe the only issues being the tech and all the early bugs / issues. However, how many clubs out there have not had people that have had the time to fully get their heads around it? Or, perhaps new handicap secretaries who have not had the background research over the last couple of years? I fully expect there to be issues at "smaller" clubs, but it appears this can affect even the bigger clubs who have the advantage of having some full time staff.


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## wjemather (Aug 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, now that I've joined another club ( a well established club one would say) I am now getting a taste of issues with implementing WHS, especially when there is confusion on what is required.

I handed in my first general play rounds. Pre-registered, entered score on howdidido after, and then submitted physical signed card in the relevant box. However, a few days later, it became clear that my score appeared twice on my record, and all my playing partners scores ended up on their record (despite them never having any intention to submit card for handicap). Turns out, someone at the club enters every score on every card when they collect the physical cards.

I've now been told by the club that it should be made clear on the card if the scores have already been entered, otherwise they will have to check each players individual record first to see if this is actually the case (a step they do not want to take). Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count. Therefore, that is why they enter every score they can from all the physical cards, and that if I do not want the scores to count, they should be scored out (ironically, even if every score did have to count, scoring any score out would then invalidate that requirement).

Concerning really. I've randomly looked at the record of about a dozen members, and most had duplicate rounds on their record where the same thing must have happened (some more than one pair of duplicate rounds). No idea how many scores have been entered for players who had never pre-registered. It also suggests that a player can easily manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards by effectively choosing what general play rounds to submit (they can even get that round to count twice if they enter it themselves, and then someone at club also enters it later).

It makes me wonder how well other clubs have been able to implement WHS since its launch. I've spent so much time over the last 2 or so years researching it and finding out more and more info, much of it on here. I fully expect people in this forum have also been able to get to grips with it, maybe the only issues being the tech and all the early bugs / issues. However, how many clubs out there have not had people that have had the time to fully get their heads around it? Or, perhaps new handicap secretaries who have not had the background research over the last couple of years? I fully expect there to be issues at "smaller" clubs, but it appears this can affect even the bigger clubs who have the advantage of having some full time staff.
		
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From what I hear (locally), it's the bigger members clubs, who rely on employed staff to administer competitions and handicapping rather than volunteer members, that have far more issues with their "handicap committee" not understanding or following the rules of handicapping. Many (if not most) do not even have a committee, just one staff member doing it all.

Of course, software that still doesn't function as required and even sends unacceptable scores (e.g. all zeros) through to WHS doesn't help.


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## Old Skier (Aug 4, 2021)

Not sure we’re the “technically “ every score should count. It’s quite clear that scores need to be pre registered by a way that the club deems acceptable.

Obviously getting members to indicate that cards have been entered on the system is useful.


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## rulefan (Aug 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count.
		
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That is not so. The management of the WHS has been delegated to National Associations (eg England Golf) and Multi-National Associations (eg CONGU). Rule 1.3 (iv) and (v).
General Play scores must be pre-registered (Rule 2.1a (iii)) and are not acceptable if not.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			That is not so. The management of the WHS has been delegated to National Associations (eg England Golf) and Multi-National Associations (eg CONGU). Rule 1.3 (iv) and (v).
General Play scores must be pre-registered (Rule 2.1a (iii)) and are not acceptable if not.
		
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Indeed, I am aware of this. Hence why it concerns me this point has been missed at some clubs.


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## SammmeBee (Aug 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed, I am aware of this. Hence why it concerns me this point has been missed at some clubs.
		
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Sadly standard for lots of clubs as well as adhering to the Rules of Golf, recent restrictions and applying general common sense.


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## Old Skier (Aug 4, 2021)

From EG:

Playing Conditions Calculations PCC – Tournament or International scores

This clarification is to support Handicap Advisors and Club Handicap Committees when recording any returned ‘tournament’, or international scores and entering them into the WHS portal directly. The score should preferably be entered hole by hole but may returned be as an adjusted gross.

As you may be aware, the USGA and R&A have a project group looking at the interoperability of WHS globally. Until this project group has completed its work, and all jurisdictions can ‘talk’ to one another, we will need some ‘work-arounds’ in place to allow scores to be added correctly to players' WHS records.

This PCC ‘work-around’ only applies to ‘tournament’ scores, or international scores, and is a solution for manually adding a calculated PCC value to a record where the score cannot be returned automatically through the WHS
platform. This is so the playing difficulty will be correctly reflected in the Handicap Index for the score returned.
Once the PCC has been calculated and published for a given date, the golfer may return their score with a PCC value to their home club for entering into their WHS Handicap record. The player should endeavour to find the PCC value, or provide the Tournament organiser details.

For these situations, the following instructions apply as a solution: Example 1 –

• For a score with a published PCC value of +2, the score is to be adjusted by reducing the gross score by two strokes: either as an adjusted gross or to two individual holes.
Example 2 –
• For a score with a published PCC value of -1, the score is to be adjusted by increasing the gross score by one stroke: either on one hole or to the adjusted gross.
*Please note – The IT team are working on a more appropriate solution to this and moving forward, looking to include a specific box where the exact PCC value can be recorded. Without the need to adjust any gross score values up or down.
 Page 1 of 1 26 July 202


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 6, 2021)

A Question on Post-COVID requirements.

The guidance from EG & CONGU is quite clear to a point (EG says you "may" return to pre-COVID regulations) but we have a situation which is causing confusion.

Our Club Captain has well intentionally sent out a note to the members stating that whilst the COVID restrictions / amendments have been rescinded it is acceptable for any player who is concerned about catching or passing on COVID may avoid touching equipment on the course or counter-signing a competition /GP scorecards.

I have no problems with not touching the flag, rakes, etc providing the player leaves any bunker in the state they would hope to find it in. I have a real problem with the lack of attestation on scorecards. Having had a full and frank exchange of views regarding just how much adding one signature to a card is a risk, we are now in a position where if a card only has one signature we have to accept it but it is in direct contravention of the CONGU rules. I had asked that we bring in a specific exception for anyone who registered that they were unwilling to sign a card but this was rejected.

Has anyone else come across this and put something in place to handle it?

Whilst I sympathise with anyone who is shielding or just COVID aware I think the blanket approach is just wrong but I don't know how to handle it without going to County and causing a major row.

Any help / advise appreciated.


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## rulefan (Aug 6, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			A Question on Post-COVID requirements.

The guidance from EG & CONGU is quite clear to a point (EG says you "may" return to pre-COVID regulations) but we have a situation which is causing confusion.

Our Club Captain has well intentionally sent out a note to the members stating that whilst the COVID restrictions / amendments have been rescinded it is acceptable for any player who is concerned about catching or passing on COVID may avoid touching equipment on the course or counter-signing a competition /GP scorecards.

I have no problems with not touching the flag, rakes, etc providing the player leaves any bunker in the state they would hope to find it in. I have a real problem with the lack of attestation on scorecards. Having had a full and frank exchange of views regarding just how much adding one signature to a card is a risk, we are now in a position where if a card only has one signature we have to accept it but it is in direct contravention of the CONGU rules. I had asked that we bring in a specific exception for anyone who registered that they were unwilling to sign a card but this was rejected.

Has anyone else come across this and put something in place to handle it?

Whilst I sympathise with anyone who is shielding or just COVID aware I think the blanket approach is just wrong but I don't know how to handle it without going to County and causing a major row.

Any help / advise appreciated.
		
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Perhaps the marker could submit a separate card recording the details including the player's gross with the markers signature.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 6, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Perhaps the marker could submit a separate card recording the details including the player's gross with the markers signature.
		
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I think where we are is that the marker writes out the card for the player before the round adding their name, handicap details, etc. They then fill in the card with the scores and sign it before passing it back to the player for counter-signature. The card will contain the players score plus the markers. However, if the marker refuses to touch the card completed for him / her by their fellow competitor they won't sign it.

We will have 2 cards with 2 sets of scores per card but potentially one signature.


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			A Question on Post-COVID requirements.

The guidance from EG & CONGU is quite clear to a point (EG says you "may" return to pre-COVID regulations) but we have a situation which is causing confusion.

Our Club Captain has well intentionally sent out a note to the members stating that whilst the COVID restrictions / amendments have been rescinded it is acceptable for any player who is concerned about catching or passing on COVID may avoid touching equipment on the course or counter-signing a competition /GP scorecards.

I have no problems with not touching the flag, rakes, etc providing the player leaves any bunker in the state they would hope to find it in. I have a real problem with the lack of attestation on scorecards. Having had a full and frank exchange of views regarding just how much adding one signature to a card is a risk, we are now in a position where if a card only has one signature we have to accept it but it is in direct contravention of the CONGU rules. I had asked that we bring in a specific exception for anyone who registered that they were unwilling to sign a card but this was rejected.

Has anyone else come across this and put something in place to handle it?

Whilst I sympathise with anyone who is shielding or just COVID aware I think the blanket approach is just wrong but I don't know how to handle it without going to County and causing a major row.

Any help / advise appreciated.
		
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With the advent of apps I can’t see how there now can be any contravention of CONGU rules when it comes to cards being signed and in the future I can see cards, other than for information for the player, eventually being phased out.

The players card can always be verified against another card with his score being placed in player B-C columns or, if it doesn’t cause confusion, in the marker column.


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## wjemather (Aug 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			With the advent of apps I can’t see how there now can be any contravention of CONGU rules when it comes to cards being signed and in the future I can see cards, other than for information for the player, eventually being phased out.

The players card can always be verified against another card with his score being placed in player B-C columns or, if it doesn’t cause confusion, in the marker column.
		
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Most ISV apps do not meet the certification requirements of the Rules of Golf.


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Most ISV apps do not meet the certification requirements of the Rules of Golf.
		
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There’s always the EG App, HDID app also asked for a named marker and has a signature facility.


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## wjemather (Aug 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There’s always the EG App, HDID app also asked for a named marker and has a signature facility.
		
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MyEG is only for casual/gp rounds; it is of no use for competitions.

Outside of testing/trials, HDID currently has a signature option for the player only, and the marker selection is purely decorative (i.e. there is no marker certification or input of marked scores).


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			MyEG is only for casual/gp rounds; it is of no use for competitions.

Outside of testing/trials, HDID currently has a signature option for the player only, and the marker selection is purely decorative (i.e. there is no marker certification or input of marked scores).
		
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EG app also has, like comp cards the ability to have an affect on a players HC. If clubs are willing to accept the EG app IMO the various proprietary apps should also be accepted. Whether we like it or not the use of proprietary apps will be the way forward.


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## rulefan (Aug 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			HDID app also asked for a named marker and has a signature facility.
		
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I think that is only the case for General Play scores, not for comps (yet)


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## wjemather (Aug 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			EG app also has, like comp cards the ability to have an affect on a players HC. If clubs are willing to accept the EG app IMO the various proprietary apps should also be accepted. Whether we like it or not the use of proprietary apps will be the way forward.
		
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Apps that do not meet the requirements of the Rules of Golf simply cannot be accepted (without additional actions to fill these gaps).


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Apps that do not meet the requirements of the Rules of Golf simply cannot be accepted (without additional actions to fill these gaps).
		
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Can you say what the difference between an app and the PSI is.


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## Old Skier (Aug 6, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I think that is only the case for General Play scores, not for comps (yet)
		
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I'll check tomorrow


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## SammmeBee (Aug 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Can you say what the difference between an app and the PSI is.
		
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One you need a scorecard and the other you don’t…..


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## wjemather (Aug 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Can you say what the difference between an app and the PSI is.
		
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With regards to effective functionality, there is currently no difference between PSI and HDID - both require a physical scorecard (or alternative method of certification).


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## IanMcC (Aug 6, 2021)

Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.
		
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Are you DQing for competition purposes or not processing handicaps for those cards? What instructions or guidance has the WGU given?


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.
		
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I'm not sure what the Welsh authorities are sending out to their members but EG latest members email strongly suggests that pre registering on the app is an acceptable method of registration (casual rounds) . I appreciate that clubs could make their own rules for casual rounds but again IMO clubs that differ from the EG information can only cause confusion amongst members.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			EG app also has, like comp cards the ability to have an affect on a players HC. If clubs are willing to accept the EG app IMO the various proprietary apps should also be accepted. Whether we like it or not the use of proprietary apps will be the way forward.
		
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I agree but until the ISV's add acceptable versions of attestation and proximity it won't happen. Both are big changes and certainly the proposed solution for attestation in HDID  looks unworkable.

Doesn't help my current problem.


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## wjemather (Aug 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.
		
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It's probably worth noting that a lack of marker's signature is not a DQ if it's out of the players control.


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I agree but until the ISV's add acceptable versions of attestation and proximity it won't happen. Both are big changes and certainly the proposed solution for attestation in HDID  looks unworkable.

Doesn't help my current problem.
		
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What really is an acceptable version of attestation.  

Playing Devils Advocate- Many clubs seem to be quite happy with a bunch of mates going out together in comps and marking each others cards. There are many posts on the forum that think this is wrong.

In the end, golf is about trust, if we cannot accept trusting our members its time to rethink things like apps and PSI.


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## IanMcC (Aug 7, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Are you DQing for competition purposes or not processing handicaps for those cards? What instructions or guidance has the WGU given?
		
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For the comp only. Their handicap record is being updated.
WGU have given no update. None required. Rule 3.3b is pretty clear.

On Edit

Wales Golf did issue this on 17th July

The following changes will be made from Saturday 17th July:

*Scoring in Stroke Play (Rule 3.3b)* – the provisions of Rule 3.3b apply where the player’s score is kept on his or her scorecard by a marker. Certification of the scorecard by the marker and by the player should occur, as per the guidelines of Rule 3.3b(2).


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## IanMcC (Aug 7, 2021)

wjemather said:



			It's probably worth noting that a lack of marker's signature is not a DQ if it's out of the players control.
		
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Once the marker left the club with the players scorecard, and of course I did not DQ either of them. Cant think of any other instance where the marker would not certify the card.


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## wjemather (Aug 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			What really is an acceptable version of attestation. 

Playing Devils Advocate- Many clubs seem to be quite happy with a bunch of mates going out together in comps and marking each others cards. There are many posts on the forum that think this is wrong.

In the end, golf is about trust, if we cannot accept trusting our members its time to rethink things like apps and PSI.
		
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Again, most (if not all) ISV apps do not currently have any attestation at all. It's unlikely that PSIs ever will (I don't really see how it could work without tying up the PSI for excessive lengths of time as each group check and certify their scores?).

Apps are also incredibly cumbersome (and unreliable due to dependency on technology, network coverage, battery life, etc.) when compared to a simple scorecard and pencil. These are the things that really hold back any move away from physical cards.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			What really is an acceptable version of attestation. 

Playing Devils Advocate- Many clubs seem to be quite happy with a bunch of mates going out together in comps and marking each others cards. There are many posts on the forum that think this is wrong.

In the end, golf is about trust, if we cannot accept trusting our members its time to rethink things like apps and PSI.
		
Click to expand...

Trust and personal integrity are fundamental parts of our game and need to be promoted and protected in my opinion. This is also true of our handicapping system which I think is the USP of our game allowing people of all ages, abilities and type to play together on a level playing field.

With this comes a responsibility so attestation for me is about playing with others - friends or not - and agreeing a score that is accurate and verified before it's used in competition or handicap calculations. In the past this was a physical scorecard with 2 signatures but as we move toward an on-line game the equivalent of confirming the score entered is what is agreed with your peers in still relevant.  

I like the MyEnglandGolf solution of a message / confirmation to the marker. I don't like the proposed V1 solution of entering both player and marker scores into the system before verifying.


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Trust and personal integrity are fundamental parts of our game and need to be promoted and protected in my opinion. This is also true of our handicapping system which I think is the USP of our game allowing people of all ages, abilities and type to play together on a level playing field.

With this comes a responsibility so attestation for me is about playing with others - friends or not - and agreeing a score that is accurate and verified before it's used in competition or handicap calculations. In the past this was a physical scorecard with 2 signatures but as we move toward an on-line game the equivalent of confirming the score entered is what is agreed with your peers in still relevant. 

I like the MyEnglandGolf solution of a message / confirmation to the marker. I don't like the proposed V1 solution of entering both player and marker scores into the system before verifying.
		
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If the same method of verification was adopted by the ISVs as is used by EG would you accept moving towards a “no scorecard” requirement for those able to use the technology?


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Again, most (if not all) ISV apps do not currently have any attestation at all. It's unlikely that PSIs ever will (I don't really see how it could work without tying up the PSI for excessive lengths of time as each group check and certify their scores?).
		
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Im not sure what you mean by this as the HDID app has the same attestation apart from the markers signature as a card. A markers name is easily added and a players signature.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure what you mean by this as the HDID app has the same attestation apart from the markers signature as a card. A markers name is easily added and a players signature.
		
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On HDID the marker never sees the score the player entered on the app. They won't even know the player has declared them a marker. A player could pick any random player at club as their marker, and unless the club actually checks, no one would be any type wiser.

On EG the marker gets a notification, they then see what the player has entered and then must physically verify that score (as far as I remember, not used it a lot)


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			For the comp only. Their handicap record is being updated.
WGU have given no update. None required. Rule 3.3b is pretty clear.
		
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Thanks. I hadn't noticed the WGU released the CONGU update on July 17th _Rule 3.3b (scoring in Stroke Play) is reinstated fully and a return to a ‘normal’ method of attestation must be used for physical scorecards. Any use of electronic scorecards must fully implement the requirements of this rule. _


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## wjemather (Aug 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure what you mean by this as the HDID app has the same attestation apart from the markers signature as a card. A markers name is easily added and a players signature.
		
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Adding a markers name does not achieve certification (attestation) by a marker as it is all done by the player. HDID has certification by player only, not by marker.

(Current) HDID functionality is effectively the same as the player marking their own scorecard, signing as the player and printing their markers name - all of this can happen without the marker ever having seen the scorecard.


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## Old Skier (Aug 8, 2021)

wjemather said:



			(Current) HDID functionality is effectively the same as the player marking their own scorecard, signing as the player and printing their markers name - all of this can happen without the marker ever having seen the scorecard.
		
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A bit like the method many clubs used in the past year.


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## rulefan (Aug 8, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Adding a markers name does not achieve certification (attestation) by a marker as it is all done by the player. HDID has certification by player only, not by marker.

(Current) HDID functionality is effectively the same as the player marking their own scorecard, signing as the player and printing their markers name - all of this can happen without the marker ever having seen the scorecard.
		
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Isn't the HDID marker functionality dependent on the type of score being submitted? Comp v General play.


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## wjemather (Aug 8, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Isn't the HDID marker functionality dependent on the type of score being submitted? Comp v General play.
		
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It's the same for both competition and gp rounds.

There is the following message at the bottom of the marker selection box which (subtly) confirms that the app does not in itself provide certification as required by the rules: "_You are now responsible for marking your own score, please ensure you verify each hole score with your designated marker._"


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## rulefan (Aug 8, 2021)

wjemather said:



			It's the same for both competition and gp rounds.

There is the following message at the bottom of the marker selection box which (subtly) confirms that the app does not in itself provide certification as required by the rules: "_You are now responsible for marking your own score, please ensure you verify each hole score with your designated marker._"
		
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Thanks.

PS. Just looking through old(ish) correspondence it is something that EG have told/asked V1 to do.


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## apj0524 (Aug 12, 2021)

*IG App for Competition Scores*
Has anyone been using the IG App without the use of physical card for competition scoring in terms of marking another players score?   Watched their video but seem to find these answers

1) Does it work Ok?
2) How do M&H know who the players marker was?
3) Without a physical card I assume the player takes a screen shot of the score card at the end and this gets sent?

Thanks


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## rulefan (Aug 13, 2021)

givepeaceachance said:



			Morning.  Can anyone advise me that if we void a competition should the scores stand??
		
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It depends on the reason for voiding it.


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## rosecott (Aug 13, 2021)

givepeaceachance said:



			Morning.  Can anyone advise me that if we void a competition should the scores stand??
		
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Not quite sure what you mean by voiding?


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 25, 2021)

Interpreting the Handicap Review Report

I was looking at this report which we have not used before but I am struggling to understand the information it is giving.

Could someone help interpret the attached report and give me a clue to what actions may be appropriate given the "flagged" players selected.

Thanks in anticipation.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 25, 2021)

I think your anticipation might be unfulfilled....our H.Sec had a look at the report a weeks or so ago and he himself was flagged as having several high scores....even though his index is on a general downward trend!!!

I suspect somewhere there is a manual telling you how to interpret what the report is telling you....





...juts that no one has bothered publishing it yet.


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## wjemather (Aug 26, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Interpreting the Handicap Review Report

I was looking at this report which we have not used before but I am struggling to understand the information it is giving.

Could someone help interpret the attached report and give me a clue to what actions may be appropriate given the "flagged" players selected.

Thanks in anticipation.
		
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My view is that it just shows players with an unusual number of high/low scores that may warrant further investigation.

The soft/hard cap report is more useful for identifying those struggling to play near their handicap. Also through this report I have noticed several players being immediately capped upon entering their 20th score due to having one good one in their first few and a very low early index as a result - one player had a cut of more than 3 after putting their (non-counting) 20th score in!! This is clearly an oversight of the system and resetting of the low index has been required in these cases. Something to keep an eye on.


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## tobybarker (Sep 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, now that I've joined another club ( a well established club one would say) I am now getting a taste of issues with implementing WHS, especially when there is confusion on what is required.

I handed in my first general play rounds. Pre-registered, entered score on howdidido after, and then submitted physical signed card in the relevant box. However, a few days later, it became clear that my score appeared twice on my record, and all my playing partners scores ended up on their record (despite them never having any intention to submit card for handicap). Turns out, someone at the club enters every score on every card when they collect the physical cards.

I've now been told by the club that it should be made clear on the card if the scores have already been entered, otherwise they will have to check each players individual record first to see if this is actually the case (a step they do not want to take). Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count. Therefore, that is why they enter every score they can from all the physical cards, and that if I do not want the scores to count, they should be scored out (ironically, even if every score did have to count, scoring any score out would then invalidate that requirement).

Concerning really. I've randomly looked at the record of about a dozen members, and most had duplicate rounds on their record where the same thing must have happened (some more than one pair of duplicate rounds). No idea how many scores have been entered for players who had never pre-registered. It also suggests that a player can easily manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards by effectively choosing what general play rounds to submit (they can even get that round to count twice if they enter it themselves, and then someone at club also enters it later).

It makes me wonder how well other clubs have been able to implement WHS since its launch. I've spent so much time over the last 2 or so years researching it and finding out more and more info, much of it on here. I fully expect people in this forum have also been able to get to grips with it, maybe the only issues being the tech and all the early bugs / issues. However, how many clubs out there have not had people that have had the time to fully get their heads around it? Or, perhaps new handicap secretaries who have not had the background research over the last couple of years? I fully expect there to be issues at "smaller" clubs, but it appears this can affect even the bigger clubs who have the advantage of having some full time staff.
		
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Our club had the same issue, and maybe still does though I enter enough comps now that I don't need to record casuals. 

Reading through this thread (takes a while!) Makes it clear the system is a mess but for all I know it always was. It's always been down to trust that groups will put the right scores down on the card, and that's no different once electronic scoring is adopted.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2021)

tobybarker said:



			Our club had the same issue, and maybe still does though I enter enough comps now that I don't need to record casuals.

Reading through this thread (takes a while!) Makes it clear the system is a mess but for all I know it always was. It's always been down to trust that groups will put the right scores down on the card, and that's no different once electronic scoring is adopted.
		
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I think electronic scoring just brings in another stage where errors can be made. Easier to make mistakes with fat fingers, compared to specifically writing a number on a card. A chap at our club is STILL shown to have a hole in one on our par 5 15th from over a month ago, when he really scored a 10+. On a card, a marker would have immediately seen their total was incorrect. Entering on howdidido, no such safety net. Wonder if they got their Hugo Boss watch from HDID for a hole in 1?


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I think electronic scoring just brings in another stage where errors can be made. Easier to make mistakes with fat fingers, compared to specifically writing a number on a card. A chap at our club is STILL shown to have a hole in one on our par 5 15th from over a month ago, when he really scored a 10+. On a card, a marker would have immediately seen their total was incorrect. Entering on howdidido, no such safety net. Wonder if they got their Hugo Boss watch from HDID for a hole in 1? 

Click to expand...

There is a safety net on the PSI as it won’t move on automatically, is this not the case on the app, if not I will contact V1


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is a safety net on the PSI as it won’t move on automatically, is this not the case on the app, if not I will contact V1
		
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In all honest, I am not sure. Do not know if the player entered this on PSI or App. I know when a 1 is typed, there often is a delay to allow you to enter another digit. But, I guess if you are too slow, it moves on anyway. I know at my last club players entered a hole in 1 on numerous occasions when they had 10+. I'm pretty sure the App does give a pause, otherwise we'd see lots of hole in 1's when players have been using it to enter scores.

Truth is, as a competition, it should have been changed, but it wasn't. And that is an obvious error. It makes you wonder how many electronic scores, especially from general play, that are very very wrong due to player mistakes and having no one to verify their score (especially when entering on howdidido). Having checked quite a few on the occasions I actually received the physical card by the player, it is clear you cannot rely on faith and good will that players will get it right. I have seen plenty of errors, some of them significant errors (like entering the score, not for them, but for another player on the card)


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I think electronic scoring just brings in another stage where errors can be made. Easier to make mistakes with fat fingers, compared to specifically writing a number on a card. A chap at our club is STILL shown to have a hole in one on our par 5 15th from over a month ago, when he really scored a 10+. On a card, a marker would have immediately seen their total was incorrect. Entering on howdidido, no such safety net. Wonder if they got their Hugo Boss watch from HDID for a hole in 1? 

Click to expand...

Yep, the guy who "scored" a 1 on a par 5 at our club is still getting inundated with eMails to claim his watch, tie, ......


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 5, 2021)

Problem with late overnight update.

We had a situation in a comp today where a lady signed-in via HowDidIDo and was given a playing handicap of 16 based on her handicap index. When she went to enter her score after the round on the PSI terminal her HI had increased and she was given a HI of 17.  I appears the Club V1 system had updated between sign-in and score entry, presumably from the EG WHS system.

The question is which playing handicap should she use - the one at sign-in or the one at score entry?


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## wjemather (Sep 5, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Problem with late overnight update.

We had a situation in a comp today where a lady signed-in via HowDidIDo and was given a playing handicap of 16 based on her handicap index. When she went to enter her score after the round on the PSI terminal her HI had increased and she was given a HI of 17.  I appears the Club V1 system had updated between sign-in and score entry, presumably from the EG WHS system.

The question is which playing handicap should she use - the one at sign-in or the one at score entry?
		
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Whichever one agrees with WHS.

I suspect that your ClubV1 (which includes the PSI) is (and always was) up-to-date but the handicap list has simply not been published to Howdidido since ClubV1 did it's daily update from WHS.

This can be done manually from ClubV1 -> Golf/Competitions Hub -> HDID Publish -> Handicaps, but be aware that it can take more than the 2 hours indicated.

Interestingly Club Systems do not seem to have a solution for forcing ClubV1 to perform a global download from WHS should that process fail overnight.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 6, 2021)

I normally use HDID to enter my general play rounds (which has loads of issues they need to resolve, but I'll not get into those). However, used the MyEG one on Friday as I was playing at another course. I was generally quite impressed, especially as it reminds you to check a possible error when the guy you're playing with puts in a different score to you (both of us set up scorecards, so were entering scores after each hole). I also liked to fact it kept a running total of everyone's score. I notice there is s side bet option, not sure what this allows, match play perhaps?

Anyway, one thing I noticed afterwards is that it immediately updated my handicap index on the WHS, assuming PCC was zero. The following day, my Index changed slightly as PCC was changed to -1. This is what I'd expect, and if I was playing 2 rounds in a day, then I'd assume the Index I use for the 2nd round would be the updated WHS Index based on PCC=0. What is odd is that, when I use HDID and submit the score, the score almost immediately appears on my scoring history on WHS. However, it is not used for my Index calculation until the following day. My Scoring history will still show my 21st oldest score in my last 20 (and counting if in my best 8), and will only refresh the following day. I'm assuming this is just another issue the ISV needs to review?


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## Banchory Buddha (Sep 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Anyway, one thing I noticed afterwards is that it immediately updated my handicap index on the WHS, assuming PCC was zero. The following day, my Index changed slightly as PCC was changed to -1. This is what I'd expect, and if I was playing 2 rounds in a day, then I'd assume the Index I use for the 2nd round would be the updated WHS Index based on PCC=0. What is odd is that, when I use HDID and submit the score, the score almost immediately appears on my scoring history on WHS. However, it is not used for my Index calculation until the following day. My Scoring history will still show my 21st oldest score in my last 20 (and counting if in my best 8), and will only refresh the following day. I'm assuming this is just another issue the ISV needs to review?
		
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 Scores only refresh overnight, and your home association is now the keeper of your handicap record, any ISVs are not going to be updating like your actual CDH record on the English Golf App.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Scores only refresh overnight, and your home association is now the keeper of your handicap record, any ISVs are not going to be updating like your actual CDH record on the English Golf App.
		
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Interesting. Imagine a scenario where I have a match play event in afternoon, but play an Acceptable round in morning. 

I start the day with an index of 7.0, course handicap of 9. In the morning round, I go round in level par. I enter in howdidido (may be a comp or general play). In afternoon match play, I still have an Index of 7.0.

However, let us say I enter my morning round in MyEG instead as general play. By afternoon round, MyEG says my Index is 6.3 and course handicap of 8. Therefore, I presume that is the handicap I now need to use in match play.

I can see the inconsistency there.


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## wjemather (Sep 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting. Imagine a scenario where I have a match play event in afternoon, but play an Acceptable round in morning.

I start the day with an index of 7.0, course handicap of 9. In the morning round, I go round in level par. I enter in howdidido (may be a comp or general play). In afternoon match play, I still have an Index of 7.0.

However, let us say I enter my morning round in MyEG instead as general play. By afternoon round, MyEG says my Index is 6.3 and course handicap of 8. Therefore, I presume that is the handicap I now need to use in match play.

I can see the inconsistency there.
		
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The "new index" being shown by MyEG is really a prediction - the same gets shown on the WHS platform, except that it is phrased "_x.x_ changing to _y.y_ tomorrow". As such, according to the WHS Platform, which is the master, your handicap index does not actually change until overnight recalculations are done.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The "new index" being shown by MyEG is really a prediction - the same gets shown on the WHS platform, except that it is phrased "_x.x_ changing to _y.y_ tomorrow". As such, according to the WHS Platform, which is the master, your handicap index does not actually change until overnight recalculations are done.
		
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Is that not confusing. I'll have to do it again to clarify what was shown on MyEG. But, on MyEG as far as I remember, it simply had my new Index showing immediately after round. There didn't appear to be any sign that it was a predicted Index. There was no note to say my official Index was the morning one, not the one shown. So, surely I can only play off what MyEG shows? It is likely my opponent would demand it.


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## Banchory Buddha (Sep 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Is that not confusing. I'll have to do it again to clarify what was shown on MyEG. But, on MyEG as far as I remember, it simply had my new Index showing immediately after round. There didn't appear to be any sign that it was a predicted Index. There was no note to say my official Index was the morning one, not the one shown. So, surely I can only play off what MyEG shows? It is likely my opponent would demand it.
		
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It may work differently on the Scottish App, and I won't be able to check until Thursday, but on ours the new score from that day is italicised and greyed out with a "P" as pending, I'm assuming the EG App does something similar?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2021)

Nope, not from what I saw on Friday night. The layout of MyEG when you open it is it brings up your Dashboard, which shows:

Name
Index
Membership No
Home Club

Graph of last 20 scores
Scoring History

After inputting my score on Friday, my Dashboard was immediately updated to say my Index was 6.5 (it was 7.1 before the round). There was no other indication that this was pending. 

When I looked the following morning, my Index simply changed to 6.6, as it turned out PCC was -1.


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## nickjdavis (Sep 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Nope, not from what I saw on Friday night. The layout of MyEG when you open it is it brings up your Dashboard, which shows:

Name
Index
Membership No
Home Club

Graph of last 20 scores
Scoring History

After inputting my score on Friday, my Dashboard was immediately updated to say my Index was 6.5 (it was 7.1 before the round). There was no other indication that this was pending.

.
		
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I can confirm that this is what the MyEG app does. However it is true to say that the app, at that time, has no knowledge of any PCC calculation that might be pending overnight, so I guess what is shown should be treated with a modicum of caution!!


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## Banchory Buddha (Sep 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Nope, not from what I saw on Friday night. The layout of MyEG when you open it is it brings up your Dashboard, which shows:

Name
Index
Membership No
Home Club

Graph of last 20 scores
Scoring History

After inputting my score on Friday, my Dashboard was immediately updated to say my Index was 6.5 (it was 7.1 before the round). There was no other indication that this was pending.

When I looked the following morning, my Index simply changed to 6.6, as it turned out PCC was -1.
		
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You only see 20 scores in total?  Despite the inadequacies of the SG App, even we get the last 28.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I can confirm that this is what the MyEG app does. However it is true to say that the app, at that time, has no knowledge of any PCC calculation that might be pending overnight, so I guess what is shown should be treated with a modicum of caution!!
		
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That is the issue. If MyEG, in the evening says my Index is 6.5, then surely I need to play off that. If I said I was going to assume it was 7.1, I can imagine my opponent would be outraged given MyEG says 6.5. I would feel their anger.

To be fair, it seems like MyEG does it right. It feels correct that my official Index should be 6.5 for that evening. Just in the same way that, pre-WHS we simply just had to assume our handicap would change based on the fact CSS would be zero. Interestingly, not sure yet if MyEG would show a higher handicap if my morning round was a stinker, and I lost a good round in the process as my 21st oldest.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You only see 20 scores in total?  Despite the inadequacies of the SG App, even we get the last 28.
		
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The graph only shows 20 scores. The scoring history shows 30


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## ger147 (Sep 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			That is the issue. If MyEG, in the evening says my Index is 6.5, then surely I need to play off that. If I said I was going to assume it was 7.1, I can imagine my opponent would be outraged given MyEG says 6.5. I would feel their anger.

To be fair, it seems like MyEG does it right. It feels correct that my official Index should be 6.5 for that evening. Just in the same way that, pre-WHS we simply just had to assume our handicap would change based on the fact CSS would be zero. Interestingly, not sure yet if MyEG would show a higher handicap if my morning round was a stinker, and I lost a good round in the process as my 21st oldest.
		
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The MyEG app does not do it right. Your new handicap index cannot be correctly calculated until the PCC for the day is known and therefore cannot be officially updated until the overnight calculation.


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## nickjdavis (Sep 7, 2021)

ger147 said:



			The MyEG app does not do it right. Your new handicap index cannot be correctly calculated until the PCC for the day is known and therefore cannot be officially updated until the overnight calculation.
		
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I tend to agree with this.



Swango1980 said:



			That is the issue. If MyEG, in the evening says my Index is 6.5, then surely I need to play off that. If I said I was going to assume it was 7.1, I can imagine my opponent would be outraged given MyEG says 6.5. I would feel their anger.

To be fair, it seems like MyEG does it right. It feels correct that my official Index should be 6.5 for that evening. Just in the same way that, pre-WHS we simply just had to assume our handicap would change based on the fact CSS would be zero. Interestingly, not sure yet if MyEG would show a higher handicap if my morning round was a stinker, and I lost a good round in the process as my 21st oldest.
		
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Imagine if the PCC moved downwards so your score was not as good as you thought it might be? In all good intentions you play off the 6.5 that the live app is telling you and this affects the number of shots you get/give by 1 and then you find out the following day that your index didn't really drop like the app said it would and you effectively lost out by a shot?

I understand the  desire to "do the right thing" and play off the "live handicap" that the app "gives" you.....but I guess somewhere there has to be an official "calculation point" and that should really be when the PCC is calculated for everyone....i.e. overnight.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I tend to agree with this.



Imagine if the PCC moved downwards so your score was not as good as you thought it might be? In all good intentions you play off the 6.5 that the live app is telling you and this affects the number of shots you get/give by 1 and then you find out the following day that your index didn't really drop like the app said it would and you effectively lost out by a shot?

I understand the  desire to "do the right thing" and play off the "live handicap" that the app "gives" you.....but I guess somewhere there has to be an official "calculation point" and that should really be when the PCC is calculated for everyone....i.e. overnight.
		
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I appreciate that, but you could say exactly the same thing when you assumed CSS was zero.

Have we not been told countless times that your handicap is what appears on the England Golf WHS? I have heard that quoted on multiple threads on Golf Monthly forums. This statement cannot be true if MyEG does this wrong.

If I am checking an opponents handicap, I tend to go to MyEG and find their handicap Index. If that is showing 6.5 rather than 7.1, because of an earlier round, then I'd automatically assume 6.5 must be their Index. If they claim they are playing of 7.1, I understand the argument (from an ex-handicap perspectives view, as I was always lead to believe your handicap cannot be changed during the day). However, as a club golfer, I can imagine this could cause some debate. Is there anywhere in the WHS manual or the CONGU reference guide that specifically states that a player's handicap must be what it started as on any particular day (unless the Committee specifically intervene and say you must play of something else, as I seem to remember Committee can make that decision themselves). I'm sure the guidance is somewhere, but struggling to find it in my quick skim through.


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## wjemather (Sep 7, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I appreciate that, but you could say exactly the same thing when you assumed CSS was zero.

Have we not been told countless times that your handicap is what appears on the England Golf WHS? I have heard that quoted on multiple threads on Golf Monthly forums. This statement cannot be true if MyEG does this wrong.

If I am checking an opponents handicap, I tend to go to MyEG and find their handicap Index. If that is showing 6.5 rather than 7.1, because of an earlier round, then I'd automatically assume 6.5 must be their Index. If they claim they are playing of 7.1, I understand the argument (from an ex-handicap perspectives view, as I was always lead to believe your handicap cannot be changed during the day). However, as a club golfer, I can imagine this could cause some debate. Is there anywhere in the WHS manual or the CONGU reference guide that specifically states that a player's handicap must be what it started as on any particular day (unless the Committee specifically intervene and say you must play of something else, as I seem to remember Committee can make that decision themselves). I'm sure the guidance is somewhere, but struggling to find it in my quick skim through.
		
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First, you need to forget about what used to happen under UHS. It's irrelevant.

The rules (5.4) state the following:
"A player’s Handicap Index should be updated no later than the day after a score was submitted, or as soon as possible thereafter.​
In a situation when a new round is played before the player’s Handicap Index has been updated, including when multiple rounds are played on the same day, it is recommended that the player uses their existing Handicap Index. However, in certain circumstances, the Committee in charge of the competition (or the Handicap Committee) has the discretion to decide what Playing Handicap the player should use (see Rule 7.2)."​
CONGU's guidance (G5.4) states the following:
"When a player plays in more than one competition on a single day, or in a 36-hole competition on one day, *his/her handicap will not be automatically re-calculated between rounds*."​


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2021)

wjemather said:



			First, you need to forget about what used to happen under UHS. It's irrelevant.

The rules (5.4) state the following:
"A player’s Handicap Index should be updated no later than the day after a score was submitted, or as soon as possible thereafter.​
In a situation when a new round is played before the player’s Handicap Index has been updated, including when multiple rounds are played on the same day, it is recommended that the player uses their existing Handicap Index. However, in certain circumstances, the Committee in charge of the competition (or the Handicap Committee) has the discretion to decide what Playing Handicap the player should use (see Rule 7.2)."​
CONGU's guidance (G5.4) states the following:
"When a player plays in more than one competition on a single day, or in a 36-hole competition on one day, *his/her handicap will not be automatically re-calculated between rounds*."​

Click to expand...

First sentence, I appreciate to an extent. However, when the argument is simply "you do not know what the PCC is", then I was simply making the point that that argument didn't hold pre WHS, so from a technical stand point why does it become important now (when the tech can accommodate playing multiple rounds per day it seems)

Cheers for the reference in bold. However, MyEG prove this statement to be technically incorrect, as it showed my Index was automatically re-calculated. I suspect England Golf simply need to be reminded of this error, and they can fix the MyEG app to fall in line with the CONGU guidance


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## Chinny (Sep 13, 2021)

Here goes......
A couple of months ago I joined the Handicap and Competitions committee at my club who use Intelligent Golf.
I'm really enjoying the role and I'm learning quickly.  I'm hoping one of the forum members will kindly assist with my question. (Message has been sent to IG but no reply as yet)
Club individual stroke play competition, player mistakenly enters their Course Handicap on their scorecard as 17 (Playing Handicap 16)  when in fact it should be 18/17. Player bogies all 18 holes for 90 gross.
Under rule 3.3b(4) player's net score stands using the lower handicap (Not DQ) When player or committee enter players score into IG the software obviously doesn't know that the wrong handicap has been written on scorecard and shows total score as net 73 instead of net 74 using the lower handicap.  
Is there a way to amend the net score to match the handicap on the card without changing one of the gross scores on the individual holes which I'm trying to avoid?
Thanks


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## apj0524 (Sep 13, 2021)

Chinny said:



			Here goes......
A couple of months ago I joined the Handicap and Competitions committee at my club who use Intelligent Golf.
I'm really enjoying the role and I'm learning quickly.  I'm hoping one of the forum members will kindly assist with my question. (Message has been sent to IG but no reply as yet)
Club individual stroke play competition, player mistakenly enters their Course Handicap on their scorecard as 17 (Playing Handicap 16)  when in fact it should be 18/17. Player bogies all 18 holes for 90 gross.
Under rule 3.3b(4) player's net score stands using the lower handicap (Not DQ) When player or committee enter players score into IG the software obviously doesn't know that the wrong handicap has been written on scorecard and shows total score as net 73 instead of net 74 using the lower handicap. 
Is there a way to amend the net score to match the handicap on the card without changing one of the gross scores on the individual holes which I'm trying to avoid?
Thanks
		
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I have not found a way to alter the hcps for the player once the comp has started to would be interested to see what IG say, however what we do is adjust their score on the holes where the get the extra shots, so if it was par 3 SI 12 and they are now playing 11 because they have used a lower HI I adjust their score by one shot.  To start with some players complained so I said either accept they are playing off a lower hcp or I DQ them but the score stands for handicap purposes, they tend to accepted that and not make the mistake again.

If what I am doing wrong I'm happy to take advise


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## Chinny (Sep 13, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			I have not found a way to alter the hcps for the player once the comp has started to would be interested to see what IG say, however what we do is adjust their score on the holes where the get the extra shots, so if it was par 3 SI 12 and they are now playing 11 because they have used a lower HI I adjust their score by one shot.  To start with some players complained so I said either accept they are playing off a lower hcp or I DQ them but the score stands for handicap purposes, they tend to accepted that and not make the mistake again.

If what I am doing wrong I'm happy to take advise
		
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Thanks for your reply, I'm trying to avoid changing the score on an individual hole to avoid players complaining as you mention in your reply.  I'm happy to share the reply from IG when one comes through.

Ta


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## rulefan (Sep 13, 2021)

Chinny said:



			Here goes......
A couple of months ago I joined the Handicap and Competitions committee at my club who use Intelligent Golf.
I'm really enjoying the role and I'm learning quickly.  I'm hoping one of the forum members will kindly assist with my question. (Message has been sent to IG but no reply as yet)
Club individual stroke play competition, player mistakenly enters their Course Handicap on their scorecard as 17 (Playing Handicap 16)  when in fact it should be 18/17. Player bogies all 18 holes for 90 gross.
Under rule 3.3b(4) player's net score stands using the lower handicap (Not DQ) When player or committee enter players score into IG the software obviously doesn't know that the wrong handicap has been written on scorecard and shows total score as net 73 instead of net 74 using the lower handicap. 
Is there a way to amend the net score to match the handicap on the card without changing one of the gross scores on the individual holes which I'm trying to avoid?
Thanks
		
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I don't use IG but I assume you are talking about the initial input to IG competition management.
Won't the handicap on the card and entered into IG only relate to the competition results in IG? Won't the gross score and HI in the WHS be used for the differential when the data is transmitted to the WHS?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I don't use IG but I assume you are talking about the initial input to IG competition management.
Won't the handicap on the card and entered into IG only relate to the competition results in IG? Won't the gross score and HI in the WHS be used for the differential when the data is transmitted to the WHS?
		
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Is that not what he is asking? How to adjust the score in the competition to reflect the handicap written on the card?


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## rulefan (Sep 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Is that not what he is asking? How to adjust the score in the competition to reflect the handicap written on the card?
		
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Shouldn't he be putting the PH used into IG?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Shouldn't he be putting the PH used into IG?
		
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No idea how IG works. But, I am guessing the issue is that it automatically uses the Playing handicap calculated from the player's ACTUAL Course handicap. However, the player put the wrong COURSE handicap on the card, which would result in a lower PH than IG is using to work out the competition results. So, the OP wants to tell IG to use a lower PH to work out the result, based on the Course Handicap on the players card. By sounds of it, the OP cannot simply reduce the PH in the system?


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## Chinny (Sep 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No idea how IG works. But, I am guessing the issue is that it automatically uses the Playing handicap calculated from the player's ACTUAL Course handicap. However, the player put the wrong COURSE handicap on the card, which would result in a lower PH than IG is using to work out the competition results. So, the OP wants to tell IG to use a lower PH to work out the result, based on the Course Handicap on the players card. By sounds of it, the OP cannot simply reduce the PH in the system?
		
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Thanks all for all your replies.  

Using IG the handicap index course handicap and playing handicap are all taken from WHS so all filled in automatically when player uploads their round via IG App. It appears at this moment those fields are locked and cannot be changed even by an administrator to reflect the lower handicap written on scorecard.

You'd like to think when the player is asked to confirm their score and finalise their card they would spot the discrepancy ie app says net 73 scorecard with wrong handicap saying net 74....

This has happened about 3 times now but luckily not affected any prizes, each player has been advised but I'm sure a day will come when someone does this and they are in the prizes.  That's why I'm looking to resolve the issue now before that happens.

When I get reply from IG I'll post on this thread for all to see.

About the same number of players have written a higher course handicap on their scorecard and ended up being DQ'd

Stay Safe


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## rosecott (Sep 13, 2021)

Chinny said:



			Here goes......
A couple of months ago I joined the Handicap and Competitions committee at my club who use Intelligent Golf.
I'm really enjoying the role and I'm learning quickly.  I'm hoping one of the forum members will kindly assist with my question. (Message has been sent to IG but no reply as yet)
Club individual stroke play competition, player mistakenly enters their Course Handicap on their scorecard as 17 (Playing Handicap 16)  when in fact it should be 18/17. Player bogies all 18 holes for 90 gross.
Under rule 3.3b(4) player's net score stands using the lower handicap (Not DQ) When player or committee enter players score into IG the software obviously doesn't know that the wrong handicap has been written on scorecard and shows total score as net 73 instead of net 74 using the lower handicap. 
Is there a way to amend the net score to match the handicap on the card without changing one of the gross scores on the individual holes which I'm trying to avoid?
Thanks
		
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We use Handicapmaster in which you can call up the player's scorecard and reduce the Playing Handicap in such a case. I would be surprised if IG does not have the same function. Perhaps the function is there but not easy to find.


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## wjemather (Sep 13, 2021)

rosecott said:



			We use Handicapmaster in which you can call up the player's scorecard and reduce the Playing Handicap in such a case. I would be surprised if IG does not have the same function. Perhaps the function is there but not easy to find.
		
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As far as I know, neither IG nor ClubV1 have a function that allows the competition committee to reduce a player's course handicap (and therefore playing handicap) based on an incorrectly completed scorecard (as required by the rules).


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## rosecott (Sep 13, 2021)

wjemather said:



			As far as I know, neither IG nor ClubV1 have a function that allows the competition committee to reduce a player's course handicap (and therefore playing handicap) based on an incorrectly completed scorecard (as required by the rules).
		
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The "scissors" button allows you to reduce the Playing Handicap only. The Course Handicap cannot be altered. On this dummy scorecard, I reduced the Playing Handicap from 8 to 7.


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## Chinny (Sep 13, 2021)

wjemather said:



			As far as I know, neither IG nor ClubV1 have a function that allows the competition committee to reduce a player's course handicap (and therefore playing handicap) based on an incorrectly completed scorecard (as required by the rules).
		
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Thanks for reply, let’s hope IG customer support come back with a fix.... 👍👍


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## wjemather (Sep 13, 2021)

rosecott said:



			The "scissors" button allows you to reduce the Playing Handicap only. The Course Handicap cannot be altered. On this dummy scorecard, I reduced the Playing Handicap from 8 to 7.
		
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To be in true accordance with the rules, it should be the Course Handicap that is able to be manipulated, but at least you are able to produce the desired result in HM.


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## rulefan (Sep 13, 2021)

wjemather said:



			To be in true accordance with the rules, it should be the Course Handicap that is able to be manipulated, but at least you are able to produce the desired result in HM.
		
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Why does the CH need to be manipulated? Surely the WHS uses the CH in it's database? The PH adjustment simply affects the Handicap Master record.


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## wjemather (Sep 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Why does the CH need to be manipulated? Surely the WHS uses the CH in it's database? The PH adjustment simply affects the Handicap Master record.
		
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Why wouldn't you want the software to allow the CH to be adjusted, rather than relying on a human to apply the PH allowance correctly? Only allowing PH adjustment creates huge potential for errors, especially in single ball team formats. (Different in Scotland, of course, due to the use of the unrounded CH, which I'd hope SG have accounted for with their supplier.)

RoG and all the relevant interpretations & guidance dictate that CH is the handicap requirement on the scorecard - so logic dictates that this is what should be changed in the event of a lower one appearing on the scorecard.


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## rulefan (Sep 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Why wouldn't you want the software to allow the CH to be adjusted, rather than relying on a human to apply the PH allowance correctly? Only allowing PH adjustment creates huge potential for errors, especially in single ball team formats. (Different in Scotland, of course, due to the use of the unrounded CH, which I'd hope SG have accounted for with their supplier.)

RoG and all the relevant interpretations & guidance dictate that CH is the handicap requirement on the scorecard - so logic dictates that this is what should be changed in the event of an lower one appearing on the scorecard.
		
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Surely WHS is about measuring an individual player's quality of play over time and therefore a score should be related to a true handicap. That is the figure stored by WHS. 
The PH is only used to determine the result of a competition. ie the relative performance of the players in the competition. Therefore that should be the correctable figure.


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## wjemather (Sep 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Surely WHS is about measuring an individual player's quality of play over time and therefore a score should be related to a true handicap. That is the figure stored by WHS.
The PH is only used to determine the result of a competition. ie the relative performance of the players in the competition. Therefore that should be the correctable figure.
		
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I think you are conflating issues. What WHS does is of no relevance to the competition. It will receive the same information from the ISV (i.e just gross hole scores without any handicap info) regardless of what handicap (index/course/playing) is applied in the ISV.

Multi-day competitions illustrate this clearly, with the handicap at the start being used throughout whereas WHS will recalculate after each round/day.


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## Chinny (Sep 14, 2021)

Thanks again for your replies, the only time we need to change the CH is when the player writes the wrong CH on their Scorecard.  
By changing the CH for competition administration only it does not affect the adjusted gross for their score differential calculation but it would if I changed a gross score to make the net score correct.
Imagine in my example of player scoring 18 bogies for gross 90 would have an adjusted gross of 90 entered onto the WHS record.  If I changed one of the bogies to a par to balance up the error made on the scorecard ie CH recorded as 17 instead of 18 (playing handicap of 16 instead of 17) then this would bring his adjusted gross down to 89 and affect the score differential.  I definitely don't want to do this. 
So in my example in the comp the player would have the following result - Gross 90 minus 16 (95% of 17) giving player a net 74 in comp.  If they had put their correct CH on scorecard their result would be Gross 90 minus 17 (95% of 18) giving a net score of 73.
Anyway, a response from IG has been received saying there is currently no option to amend a players playing handicap on the system but they will investigate further and provide us with an update in due course.


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## rulefan (Sep 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I think you are conflating issues. What WHS does is of no relevance to the competition. It will receive the same information from the ISV (i.e just gross hole scores without any handicap info) regardless of what handicap (index/course/playing) is applied in the ISV.

Multi-day competitions illustrate this clearly, with the handicap at the start being used throughout whereas WHS will recalculate after each round/day.
		
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Yes. But PH affects the result of the comp. CH does not. Why not simply change the PH in the ISV, surely that is all that is needed.

PS Which is what IG seem to have in mind and HM already does.


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## Chinny (Sep 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Yes. But PH affects the result of the comp. CH does not. Why not simply change the PH in the ISV, surely that is all that is needed.

PS Which is what IG seem to have in mind and HM already does.
		
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Using IG we’re not able to change CH or PH at all (Now confirmed by IG) that was the original reason for the post prior to receiving reply from IG.

An incorrect CH will affect the result of comp as players use this incorrect number to work out their PH.

If a players true CH is 9 and they write 8 on their Scorecard which gives them a PH of 8 in a singles comp then their net score will be correct for their CH of 8 but wrong for their true CH of 9.  Or am I missing something?


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## wjemather (Sep 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Yes. But PH affects the result of the comp. CH does not. Why not simply change the PH in the ISV, surely that is all that is needed.
		
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CH is not applied directly, but of course it affects the comp result since PH is derived from CH.

I already covered why changing CH makes more sense in #1,427 - e.g. why would you want to manually recalculate a 4 person team scramble handicap instead of adjusting the one player's CH and letting the software do the rest?

As hinted, I'd be interested to know how the rules should be applied in jurisdictions where the unrounded CH is used to calculate PH (e.g. Scotland), when the rounded CH will be on the scorecard.


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## rulefan (Sep 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			As hinted, I'd be interested to know how the rules should be applied in jurisdictions where the unrounded CH is used to calculate PH (e.g. Scotland), when the rounded CH will be on the scorecard.
		
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Not being in Scotland I don't know how the CH displays in the SG app/software. As I understand it, the ISVs there have been replaced by Scottish Golf software.
But I can see why HM & IG would concentrate on PH as they are only concerned with that item.


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## chrisd (Sep 23, 2021)

A question that's probably been asked but I haven't seen it myself

If a club has a comp where the maximum handicap is say 18 and, say,  a 25 handicapper enters, is the players handicap then reduced from the 18 he's required to reduce to and then further by the % reduction for the type of comp eg matchplay. So would he then play off say 16?


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## wjemather (Sep 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			A question that's probably been asked but I haven't seen it myself

If a club has a comp where the maximum handicap is say 18 and, say,  a 25 handicapper enters, is the players handicap then reduced from the 18 he's required to reduce to and then further by the % reduction for the type of comp eg matchplay. So would he then play off say 16?
		
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It would depend on how the handicap limit is specified in the terms of competition - Index, Course or Playing.


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## chrisd (Sep 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			It would depend on how the handicap limit is specified in the terms of competition - Index, Course or Playing.
		
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So its purely down to the club whether they incorporate the % reduction within their 18 handicap comp rule?


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## wjemather (Sep 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So its purely down to the club whether they incorporate the % reduction within their 18 handicap comp rule?
		
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Yes. The recommendation is to use Handicap Index since players should know what that is. The committee can then set their limit such that is achieves their desired Playing Handicap limit; e.g. for an 18 playing handicap limit from the White tees for men at our course, the index limit would be 17.3 for individual events (95%) or 19.1 for 4BBB events (85%), etc.


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## apj0524 (Sep 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			A question that's probably been asked but I haven't seen it myself

If a club has a comp where the maximum handicap is say 18 and, say,  a 25 handicapper enters, is the players handicap then reduced from the 18 he's required to reduce to and then further by the % reduction for the type of comp eg matchplay. So would he then play off say 16?
		
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We use IG and can set the Playing Handicap to a max, which for our Honours Comps is 18, so a 26 handicapper if they wish to enter would play off 18


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## chrisd (Sep 23, 2021)

If a 19 handicapper entered I guess they would play off 17, so a 10% reduction would be the first consideration ie they wouldn't play off 18?


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## wjemather (Sep 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			If a 19 handicapper entered I guess they would play off 17, so a 10% reduction would be the first consideration ie they wouldn't play off 18?
		
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If the limit is set to a Playing Handicap of 18, then 18 is what a player with a higher playing handicap would play from.
If the limit is set to a Course Handicap of 18, then 17 would be the maximum Playing Handicap (at 95%).
If the limit is set to a Handicap Index of 18.0, then the course Slope Rating would determine what the maximum Course Handicap (18 x Slope/113) and Playing Handicap (0.95 x 18 x Slope/113) would be.


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## chrisd (Sep 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			If the limit is set to a Playing Handicap of 18, then 18 is what a player with a higher playing handicap would play from.
If the limit is set to a Course Handicap of 18, then 17 would be the maximum Playing Handicap (at 95%).
If the limit is set to a Handicap Index of 18.0, then the course Slope Rating would determine what the maximum Course Handicap (18 x Slope/113) and Playing Handicap (0.95 x 18 x Slope/113) would be.
		
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Thanks for the detailed explanation 👍👍


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## rulefan (Sep 23, 2021)

In opens or other comps where some players are not playing on their home course, my impression is that in most cases the HI is being used to set limits.
In internal comps it doesn't matter so much.


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 24, 2021)

A question for Handicap Secretaries. When does the low index get set in WHS? is it when the playing record is full (ie 20 scores) or is there some other criteria.

The reason I ask is that we have a new member how has gone up by 10 shots this year since putting his 3 cards in and the Low Index is set to "pending".


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 24, 2021)

Just announced by Club Systems - their answer to attestation for HowDidIDo.

*New Mobile Score Input for Marker and Player Scores*
During October 2021 we will be releasing a new, enhanced version of our hugely popular Mobile Score Input feature.

Players will enter their own score at each hole as well as a score for one of their playing partners. Scores will be cross-checked at the end of the round before being submitted for handicapping and/or competitions result processing.

This feature has been approved by the R&A to substitute paper scorecards where the club wishes to do so, as it is Rules of Golf compliant.

If you wish to turn this feature on early, please contact betatesting@clubsystems.com

Click below to view a video and please feel free to distribute the link to your members.

Click here for more details


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## wjemather (Sep 24, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			A question for Handicap Secretaries. When does the low index get set in WHS? is it when the playing record is full (ie 20 scores) or is there some other criteria.

The reason I ask is that we have a new member how has gone up by 10 shots this year since putting his 3 cards in and the Low Index is set to "pending".
		
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Yes, it gets set when 20 scores are reached. You will likely find that this member will immediately trigger the Hard Card upon submitting their 20th score (with a resultant reduction in their Handicap Index) and need their LHI resetting.


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## ger147 (Sep 24, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Just announced by Club Systems - their answer to attestation for HowDidIDo.

*New Mobile Score Input for Marker and Player Scores*
During October 2021 we will be releasing a new, enhanced version of our hugely popular Mobile Score Input feature.

Players will enter their own score at each hole as well as a score for one of their playing partners. Scores will be cross-checked at the end of the round before being submitted for handicapping and/or competitions result processing.

This feature has been approved by the R&A to substitute paper scorecards where the club wishes to do so, as it is Rules of Golf compliant.

If you wish to turn this feature on early, please contact betatesting@clubsystems.com

Click below to view a video and please feel free to distribute the link to your members.

Click here for more details

Click to expand...

I appreciate it's not your question to answer but how does that work for general play, especially if none of my playing partners are handing cards in that day, only me?


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 25, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I appreciate it's not your question to answer but how does that work for general play, especially if none of my playing partners are handing cards in that day, only me?
		
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I suspect it won't work that way as it appears you need a 1 to 1 relationship between marker and player. Also no mention is made about PSI terminals but I presume this will apply to both.


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## wjemather (Sep 25, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I suspect it won't work that way as it appears you need a 1 to 1 relationship between marker and player. Also no mention is made about PSI terminals but I presume this will apply to both.
		
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Nothing I've seen mentions PSI terminals, so I assume it only relates to score entry via the HDID app.


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 25, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Nothing I've seen mentions PSI terminals, so I assume it only relates to score entry via the HDID app.
		
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But the same problem of attestation applies so unless they alter PSI there is still a problem.


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## wjemather (Sep 25, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			But the same problem of attestation applies so unless they alter PSI there is still a problem.
		
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Surely PSI terminals cannot meet the rules requirements of a scorecard, i.e. scores need to be entered after each hole, so can only ever used for secondary score entry.


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 27, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Surely PSI terminals cannot meet the rules requirements of a scorecard, i.e. scores need to be entered after each hole, so can only ever used for secondary score entry.
		
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There is no way HDID will allow score entry after every hole on our course - there is no coverage for 80+% of the site.


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## Old Skier (Sep 27, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			There is no way HDID will allow score entry after every hole on our course - there is no coverage for 80+% of the site.
		
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I presume that like the current app you’ll be able to enter all scores at the end of the round as is the case with the EG app.


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## wjemather (Sep 27, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			There is no way HDID will allow score entry after every hole on our course - there is no coverage for 80+% of the site.
		
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Indeed. The same applies at many courses. Some mobile scoring apps permit offline score entry, with synchronisation happening in the background as network coverage is restored, so perhaps this has been considered.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 7, 2021)

Flooded Bunkers - Again!!!!

EG have issued guidelines for winter golf in a 5 page document dated 5/9/21. As expected for most things, however, there is the following paragraph on bunkers:

Bunkers

Providing a Local Rule is in place, bunkers may be taken out of play and marked as GUR for situations such as severe or prolonged wet weather. Bunkers flooded with water, can be marked as GUR; allowing scores to still be acceptable and returned for handicap purposes. Players must be made aware of which bunkers are GUR before play. *There is no limit on the number of bunkers that can be taken ‘out of play’.*

I thought the blanket "all bunkers" being taken out was prohibited - a maximum of 50% had to be in play for it to be acceptable for handicap. This implies there is no limit. I'm confused!


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## rulefan (Oct 7, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Flooded Bunkers - Again!!!!

EG have issued guidelines for winter golf in a 5 page document dated 5/9/21. As expected for most things, however, there is the following paragraph on bunkers:

Bunkers

Providing a Local Rule is in place, bunkers may be taken out of play and marked as GUR for situations such as severe or prolonged wet weather. Bunkers flooded with water, can be marked as GUR; allowing scores to still be acceptable and returned for handicap purposes. Players must be made aware of which bunkers are GUR before play. *There is no limit on the number of bunkers that can be taken ‘out of play’.*

I thought the blanket "all bunkers" being taken out was prohibited - a maximum of 50% had to be in play for it to be acceptable for handicap. This implies there is no limit. I'm confused!
		
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The50% was a limit introduced by James Crampton, the then head of Handicapping at the then English Golf Union, many years ago. It was never taken up by the rest of CONGU and has now been dropped by England Golf. It is not a CONGU (or WHS) ruling.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 7, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The50% was a limit introduced by James Crampton, the then head of Handicapping at the then English Golf Union, many years ago. It was never taken up by the rest of CONGU and has now been dropped by England Golf. It is not a CONGU (or WHS) ruling.
		
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OK - so just to be clear - are we able to take all bunkers out of play under 16.1b or do we have to leave some in play for it to be acceptable for handicap?


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## rulefan (Oct 8, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			OK - so just to be clear - are we able to take all bunkers out of play under 16.1b ?
		
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Yes. As it says "_There is no limit on the number of bunkers that can be taken ‘out of play’'_

The LR has to make it clear just what is or isn't out of play


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 8, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Yes. As it says "_There is no limit on the number of bunkers that can be taken ‘out of play’'_

The LR has to make it clear just what is or isn't out of play
		
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OK thanks - our course would not want to apply this as a blanket LR and I can see how we will use it in competitions. Could we apply a local rules for General Play rounds specifically?


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## rulefan (Oct 8, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			OK thanks - our course would not want to apply this as a blanket LR and I can see how we will use it in competitions. Could we apply a local rules for General Play rounds specifically?
		
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Good question for which I don't have a definitive answer.
But IMO but if you have clause in the LR which differentiates between comps and general play, it should suffice.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 9, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Good question for which I don't have a definitive answer.
But IMO but if you have clause in the LR which differentiates between comps and general play, it should suffice.
		
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Had a long chat with the course manager today and he as reluctantly agreed to apply the local rule across the club until the end of the month by which time the 90+ bunkers will be restored.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Had a long chat with the course manager today and he as reluctantly agreed to apply the local rule across the club until the end of the month by which time the 90+ bunkers will be restored.
		
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It makes me cringe when rounds can count for handicap when no bunkers are in play. Completely different course. You can just smash any of your shots without worrying about ending up.in one. It would completely change my club choice on many holes, and my line.


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## rulefan (Oct 10, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Had a long chat with the course manager today and he as reluctantly agreed to apply the local rule across the club until the end of the month by which time the 90+ bunkers will be restored.
		
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Your club should really be informing the county about the situation. The Course Rating would be seriously affected.

*Appendix G: The Golf Course, Course Rating and Slope Rating
Course Measurement, Course Rating and Slope Rating, and Modification of Courses*

*f. *Modification of Courses (i) Temporary Changes The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily. Where a temporary Course Rating and Slope Rating has been issued, this information must be made available to players prior to the commencement of their round.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 10, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Your club should really be informing the county about the situation. The Course Rating would be seriously affected.

*Appendix G: The Golf Course, Course Rating and Slope Rating
Course Measurement, Course Rating and Slope Rating, and Modification of Courses*

*f. *Modification of Courses (i) Temporary Changes The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily. Where a temporary Course Rating and Slope Rating has been issued, this information must be made available to players prior to the commencement of their round.
		
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I believe we have. I thought this appendix only refers to changes in length due to tees / greens being taken out for maintenance etc not bunkers or other areas in the general area.


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## rulefan (Oct 10, 2021)

" .... that may affect the Course Rating."

Taking out all the bunkers would significantly affect the course rating.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 11, 2021)

rulefan said:



			" .... that may affect the Course Rating."

Taking out all the bunkers would significantly affect the course rating.
		
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True, but so does having to play out of poor quality bunkers and I don't envisage the CR would increase because of that.


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## rulefan (Oct 11, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			True, but so does having to play out of poor quality bunkers and I don't envisage the CR would increase because of that.
		
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The rating system posits that the course is in 'normal' playing condition. If the club/course management cannot achieve reasonable consistency at certain times they shouldn't run 'qualifying' competitions then.
Sand condition is a small factor in rating but the absence of all bunkers has a far greater significance.


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## IanMcC (Oct 15, 2021)

Our club secretary contacted me today. She had a problem adding a new member to Wales Golf Dashboard. His name, date of birth and email address were all correct. when trying to submit we get the error message in the screenshot. Anyone else encountered this?


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## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Our club secretary contacted me today. She had a problem adding a new member to Wales Golf Dashboard. His name, date of birth and email address were all correct. when trying to submit we get the error message in the screenshot. Anyone else encountered this?
		
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Has she found him on the WHS DB and accepted him there. She might need to search as he might already be on.


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## IanMcC (Oct 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Has she found him on the WHS DB and accepted him there. She might need to search as he might already be on.
		
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No, he is new to golf. Even tried changing his DOB in case it was a duplicate, but same message appears.


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## rosecott (Oct 15, 2021)

Has anyone had WHS issues today?

Some of my members have had problems entering comp scores via masterscoreboard - being told that a current handicap is not available from WHS and I have had the dreaded "Bad Gateway 502" message.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2021)

From Handicap Master

_We are aware that since about 13:00 BST on Friday 15th October that the England, Welsh WHS handicapping services are experiencing intermittent problems.
These problems may have resulted in the following error being returned to HandicapMaster and Master Scoreboard when attempts to access the England Golf and Wales Golf WHS Platform:
502 - Bad Gateway
These are NOT errors from within HandicapMaster or Master Scoreboard.
These errors have been reported to the service provider (New Zealand's DotGolf International); we are awaiting a response._
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

_We have received a reply from DotGolf indicating that they are aware of the issue and are currently working to get the issue resolved.  _


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## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			No, he is new to golf. Even tried changing his DOB in case it was a duplicate, but same message appears.
		
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Seems like there was an issue with the DB


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 16, 2021)

Has anyone turned on the new attestation functionality in HowDidIDo that was released this week?

We are planning to do a test this week to see how the dual entry works but would be interested in any feedback.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 21, 2021)

For HowDidIDo users - attestation test.

We did a live test this evening of the new functionality in HDID for both competition and General Play Rounds. The results were somewhat surprising.

For competition rounds you are asked to enter the name of the person whose card you are marking and also who is marking your card (fair enough). We then entered scores for each player and marker which disagreed with each other so nobody had a matched score with their marker. In each case the players score was taken and no error message was forthcoming.  The name and signature of the marker was included in the scoring record for the competition. We then closed the competition and the players scores were transmitted to WHS. In other words the markers scores were ignored and no errors flagged. 

For General Play, the marker was asked for and both scores entered. Again no errors were detected and the players scores were sent through to WHS unchallenged. No details of the marker were included in the GP analysis of the round - no name, signature or score. 

Frankly, we were left a bit baffled by the results as the input looked to be perfect to perform the checks for attestation - but nothing happened. Our conclusion was that in the current form it was unusable as all the additional effort for no results wasn't justified and we turned it back off.

Has anyone else tried it?


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## Old Skier (Oct 21, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For HowDidIDo users - attestation test.

We did a live test this evening of the new functionality in HDID for both competition and General Play Rounds. The results were somewhat surprising.

For competition rounds you are asked to enter the name of the person whose card you are marking and also who is marking your card (fair enough). We then entered scores for each player and marker which disagreed with each other so nobody had a matched score with their marker. In each case the players score was taken and no error message was forthcoming.  The name and signature of the marker was included in the scoring record for the competition. We then closed the competition and the players scores were transmitted to WHS. In other words the markers scores were ignored and no errors flagged. 

For General Play, the marker was asked for and both scores entered. Again no errors were detected and the players scores were sent through to WHS unchallenged. No details of the marker were included in the GP analysis of the round - no name, signature or score. 

Frankly, we were left a bit baffled by the results as the input looked to be perfect to perform the checks for attestation - but nothing happened. Our conclusion was that in the current form it was unusable as all the additional effort for no results wasn't justified and we turned it back off.

Has anyone else tried it?
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully you will pass on your findings to the HDID development team.


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For HowDidIDo users - attestation test.

We did a live test this evening of the new functionality in HDID for both competition and General Play Rounds. The results were somewhat surprising.

For competition rounds you are asked to enter the name of the person whose card you are marking and also who is marking your card (fair enough). We then entered scores for each player and marker which disagreed with each other so nobody had a matched score with their marker. In each case the players score was taken and no error message was forthcoming.  The name and signature of the marker was included in the scoring record for the competition. We then closed the competition and the players scores were transmitted to WHS. In other words the markers scores were ignored and no errors flagged. 

For General Play, the marker was asked for and both scores entered. Again no errors were detected and the players scores were sent through to WHS unchallenged. No details of the marker were included in the GP analysis of the round - no name, signature or score. 

Frankly, we were left a bit baffled by the results as the input looked to be perfect to perform the checks for attestation - but nothing happened. Our conclusion was that in the current form it was unusable as all the additional effort for no results wasn't justified and we turned it back off.

Has anyone else tried it?
		
Click to expand...

Worrying.


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## Griffsters (Oct 25, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For HowDidIDo users - attestation test.

We did a live test this evening of the new functionality in HDID for both competition and General Play Rounds. The results were somewhat surprising.

For competition rounds you are asked to enter the name of the person whose card you are marking and also who is marking your card (fair enough). We then entered scores for each player and marker which disagreed with each other so nobody had a matched score with their marker. In each case the players score was taken and no error message was forthcoming.  The name and signature of the marker was included in the scoring record for the competition. We then closed the competition and the players scores were transmitted to WHS. In other words the markers scores were ignored and no errors flagged. 

For General Play, the marker was asked for and both scores entered. Again no errors were detected and the players scores were sent through to WHS unchallenged. No details of the marker were included in the GP analysis of the round - no name, signature or score. 

Frankly, we were left a bit baffled by the results as the input looked to be perfect to perform the checks for attestation - but nothing happened. Our conclusion was that in the current form it was unusable as all the additional effort for no results wasn't justified and we turned it back off.

Has anyone else tried it?
		
Click to expand...

We were going to do similar in the off season - this does not sound good at all. Isn't it stated that it has been sanctioned by the R&A to replace scorecards?

I'm probably more 'open' to changes like this than most but unless basic stuff like this can be trusted then there is no chance scorecards can be replaced any time soon.


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 25, 2021)

Griffsters said:



			We were going to do similar in the off season - this does not sound good at all. Isn't it stated that it has been sanctioned by the R&A to replace scorecards?

I'm probably more 'open' to changes like this than most but unless basic stuff like this can be trusted then* there is no chance scorecards can be replaced any time soon*.
		
Click to expand...

We ran with VMS for 4 months then had enough, it'll take a helluva upgrade from Scottish Golf to get us to throw away our paper scorecards again


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## Old Skier (Oct 25, 2021)

Griffsters said:



			We were going to do similar in the off season - this does not sound good at all. Isn't it stated that it has been sanctioned by the R&A to replace scorecards?

I'm probably more 'open' to changes like this than most but unless basic stuff like this can be trusted then there is no chance scorecards can be replaced any time soon.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is more of a mindset issue. We were/are willing to accept what was written on a card. There will be those that manipulate the system but that has always been the case.

As you posted, it has been sanctioned. I personally think it has been introduced a year early for comps (possibly due to COVID) and should have been used just for casual rounds for now.


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For HowDidIDo users - attestation test.

We did a live test this evening of the new functionality in HDID for both competition and General Play Rounds. The results were somewhat surprising.
		
Click to expand...

Have you reported it to HDID? What was their response?


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## Griffsters (Oct 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I think this is more of a mindset issue. We were/are willing to accept what was written on a card. There will be those that manipulate the system but that has always been the case.

As you posted, it has been sanctioned. I personally think it has been introduced a year early for comps (possibly due to COVID) and should have been used just for casual rounds for now.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I agree. That transition period to change the norm is going to be a difficult one tho. The process of inputting scores via a mobile device seems to create errors with some members (fat fingers!) and the mindset is to just press next when presented with the option rather than check what they have entered is correct. 

id like to see a kind of 'hybrid' period where the new way of entering scores is implemented so members can become familiar with it but ultimately the card is still king during this hybrid or transition period. I'm hoping to do some work on this in the off season to see what the best options are for our club. We use ClubV1 / How DidIDo btw.

I like what you say about just for casual rounds but I don't think there is an option for that in ClubV1? Might be worth a quick email as a request


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 26, 2021)

Griffsters said:



			I like what you say about just for casual rounds but I don't think there is an option for that in ClubV1? Might be worth a quick email as a request 

Click to expand...

Why would they develop that? General Play rounds are for handicap only, handicaps are not stored by 3rd party vendors, seems pointless and confusing


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## Griffsters (Oct 26, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Why would they develop that? General Play rounds are for handicap only, handicaps are not stored by 3rd party vendors, seems pointless and confusing
		
Click to expand...

The option to enable it for all score entry is there - so no extra development of note. As a feature I think it would be valuable for customers to have the option to enable it for General Play rounds only - allowing members (and committees!) to become familiar with it before being overwhelmed with errors in comps.


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## wjemather (Oct 26, 2021)

Griffsters said:



			Yes I agree. That transition period to change the norm is going to be a difficult one tho. The process of inputting scores via a mobile device seems to create errors with some members (fat fingers!) and the mindset is to just press next when presented with the option rather than check what they have entered is correct.

id like to see a kind of 'hybrid' period where the new way of entering scores is implemented so members can become familiar with it but ultimately the card is still king during this hybrid or transition period. I'm hoping to do some work on this in the off season to see what the best options are for our club. We use ClubV1 / How DidIDo btw.

I like what you say about just for casual rounds but I don't think there is an option for that in ClubV1? Might be worth a quick email as a request 

Click to expand...

Mobile score input is no different from asking players to enter their scores via a PSI - people will always make errors putting scores in, and they don't them check properly because they only look at the totals (points/gross/nett) and not the hole scores.

Even with apps that function in accordance with the requirements of rule 3.3, there is no obligation for the committee to accept them - they remain able to rule that the physical scorecard is definitive; most will do just that, and there is no reason to believe that will change any time soon.


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 26, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Mobile score input is no different from asking players to enter their scores via a PSI - people will always make errors putting scores in, and they don't them check properly because they only look at the totals (points/gross/nett) and not the hole scores.

Even with apps that function in accordance with the requirements of rule 3.3, there is no obligation for the committee to accept them - they remain able to rule that the physical scorecard is definitive; most will do just that, and there is no reason to believe that will change any time soon.
		
Click to expand...

Regarding the latter, agree completely, the authorities (USGA/R&A) are not going to throw out paper scorecards however much individual unions want to (SG are rabid about the App), cards speak, and can be readily checked, plus we are a lot of years away from universal smart phone usage, it's simply not practical.

However I don't agree with your first point, we had no issues when we used the PSI terminal, but when we switched to the App this year it was a disaster, when we gave up and went to score entry via the SG system on an ipad we eradicated issues immediately again. Now part of that I grant you is how buggy the SG App is, nevertheless the difference was stark, to such a degree we have no desire to go back to App scoring.


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## Griffsters (Oct 26, 2021)

Similar experience Mr Buddha regards PSI input compared to mobile app. PSI has a nice big screen and pressing bigger buttons maybe that is why. *shrugs* 

I can't see physical scorecards will be replaced anytime soon however, the times they are a changin'.


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## tobybarker (Oct 26, 2021)

People make it seem like cards good, computers bad, but how often do people fail to fill in cards correctly either?! Some people just never seen to care that their cards aren't vaguely legible....better embrace the tech sooner rather than later, cos pound to a penny cards will disappear within, I dunno, 5 years.....I hope so anyway


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 27, 2021)

tobybarker said:



			People make it seem like cards good, computers bad, but* how often* *do people fail to fill in cards correctly either*?! Some people just never seen to care that their cards aren't vaguely legible....better embrace the tech sooner rather than later, cos pound to a penny cards will disappear within, I dunno, 5 years.....I hope so anyway
		
Click to expand...

Very rarely, we'd use the red pen on average less than once per competition, but by the time we gave up on the App we'd regularly a third of the field not verifying.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 27, 2021)

tobybarker said:



			People make it seem like cards good, computers bad, but how often do people fail to fill in cards correctly either?! Some people just never seen to care that their cards aren't vaguely legible....better embrace the tech sooner rather than later, cos pound to a penny cards will disappear within, I dunno, 5 years.....I hope so anyway
		
Click to expand...

If a player gets a 5 on a hole, and they type a 4 on the computer, it is easily done. Fat finger hit the wrong button. If the player is writing the score on a card, it is much harder to write down a 4, when you (marker) knows it was a 5. If you did write down a 4, then you simply mis counted the stroked, and the error would exist whether it be put on a card or the computer.

Also, I find with cards, every single player is in the habit of exchanging cards afterwards, and confirming scores. Plenty of times there is a disagreement, and both players go through each hole and then they get to the bottom of it. With computers it is different. No marker that I remember stands over a players shoulder, watches them input their score and then confirms the final result before they click OK. And they certainly do not watch them enter the score in their phone. So, if a mistake is made, picking it up relies on 3 things:


The player themselves realising the mistake. This frequently does not happen (with final scores being anything from 1 shot out to about 30-40 points out because they did something really crazy like enter their stableford points, not number of shots)
A player in their group needs to spot the mistake AFTER the results are published
The Committee need to check the scores in the system, or at least the top scores, before closing the comp. They do this by using the physical scorecard.
I'm in no doubt electronic scoring will become the norm. But as it stands at the moment, and the mentality of players, it is prone to more errors I believe, and I think it is something we'll just need to accept


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 27, 2021)

^^Swango nails it there, good post


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 27, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Have you reported it to HDID? What was there response?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I did report it and ended up spending some considerable time on the phone explaining what we had done and what the results were (or weren't).

The chap I spoke to was going to recreate the scenario I outlined before getting the development team involved. I did ask if he had access to the test scripts and results they must have used for pre-release acceptance testing - he didn't.

I await their feedback.


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## rulefan (Oct 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I await their feedback.
		
Click to expand...

Oops. I can't spell. Or at least my spell checker can't


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## nickjdavis (Oct 28, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For HowDidIDo users - attestation test.

We did a live test this evening of the new functionality in HDID for both competition and General Play Rounds. The results were somewhat surprising.

For competition rounds you are asked to enter the name of the person whose card you are marking and also who is marking your card (fair enough). We then entered scores for each player and marker which disagreed with each other so nobody had a matched score with their marker. In each case the players score was taken and no error message was forthcoming.  The name and signature of the marker was included in the scoring record for the competition. We then closed the competition and the players scores were transmitted to WHS. In other words the markers scores were ignored and no errors flagged. 

For General Play, the marker was asked for and both scores entered. Again no errors were detected and the players scores were sent through to WHS unchallenged. No details of the marker were included in the GP analysis of the round - no name, signature or score. 

Frankly, we were left a bit baffled by the results as the input looked to be perfect to perform the checks for attestation - but nothing happened. Our conclusion was that in the current form it was unusable as all the additional effort for no results wasn't justified and we turned it back off.

Has anyone else tried it?
		
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on what the vendors have interpreted that "attestation" means.

It appears to me that, the way things have been implemented, attestation is simply "I agree with the scores that the player has entered"....whereas the expectation, from your (not unreasonable) point of view, is that attestation should involve the automated cross checking of marker v. player scores and flagging any errors, if the score data is there to support such a thing.

As I understand it in the England Golf app (and in the MasterScoreboard App...front end of HandicapMaster) there is absolutely no compunction on a player who has been nominated as a marker by someone else, for that player to enter his own scores, or those of the player he is marking for, in the App.....so there can be no automated cross checking by the "system". Thinking about it....I'm not sure why would it work this way....its perfectly possible for someone to play in a comp with someone who is not in the comp and for that player to act as their marker.

What was the new "attestation functionality" advertised as being able to do?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I guess it depends on what the vendors have interpreted that "attestation" means.

It appears to me that, the way things have been implemented, attestation is simply "I agree with the scores that the player has entered"....whereas the expectation, from your (not unreasonable) point of view, is that attestation should involve the automated cross checking of marker v. player scores and flagging any errors, if the score data is there to support such a thing.

As I understand it in the England Golf app (and in the MasterScoreboard App...front end of HandicapMaster) there is absolutely no compunction on a player who has been nominated as a marker by someone else, for that player to enter his own scores, or those of the player he is marking for, in the App.....so there can be no automated cross checking by the "system". Thinking about it....I'm not sure why would it work this way....its perfectly possible for someone to play in a comp with someone who is not in the comp and for that player to act as their marker.

What was the new "attestation functionality" advertised as being able to do?
		
Click to expand...

Good question as to how can attestation be most affective using IT.

I know that, when using the MyEG App, if you enter your scores as you play the round and the person you play with does the same, if either of you type in conflicting scores, you get a warning to check it. I thought that was an excellent feature. Of course, it requires both of you to be entering scores for this to work, and there is no requirement for the marker to be needing to do that (they may not even be playing golf themselves).

I wonder, however, if someone has been named as a marker, can there at least be a requirement (in the future), for them to enter the scores into the App themselves for the person they are marking the score for (regardless on whether they are putting their own score in as well). The player also puts in their score, and so there is always 2 scores to compare? It might be an interesting idea. Some issues to get around may be that the marker may not be a member or registered / paid for the MyEG App. So either the person who can mark a score needs to be more tightly defined, or possibly an option for a "Guest" marker, who can still upload MyEG (or other App) and enter scores without having to register with igolf or be a club member (although I think a lot of clubs demand the marker is a member anyway, my club apparently states a marker must be a member of the club with a handicap)


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 28, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I guess it depends on what the vendors have interpreted that "attestation" means.

It appears to me that, the way things have been implemented, attestation is simply "I agree with the scores that the player has entered"....whereas the expectation, from your (not unreasonable) point of view, is that attestation should involve the automated cross checking of marker v. player scores and flagging any errors, if the score data is there to support such a thing.

As I understand it in the England Golf app (and in the MasterScoreboard App...front end of HandicapMaster) there is absolutely no compunction on a player who has been nominated as a marker by someone else, for that player to enter his own scores, or those of the player he is marking for, in the App.....*so there can be no automated cross checking by the "system"*. Thinking about it....I'm not sure why would it work this way....its perfectly possible for someone to play in a comp with someone who is not in the comp and for that player to act as their marker.

What was the new "attestation functionality" advertised as being able to do?
		
Click to expand...

One of the few things Scottish Golf have got correct then, you cannot validate another players scores until they align in cross checking. Any that don't agree get highlighted and you have to go back and amend.  

If this is not part of the process in HDID/EG, then it's a huge flaw, and absolutely no replacement for paper scorecards


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## wjemather (Oct 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Some issues to get around may be that the marker may not be a member or registered / paid for the MyEG App. So either the person who can mark a score needs to be more tightly defined, or possibly an option for a "Guest" marker, who can still upload MyEG (or other App) and enter scores without having to register with igolf or be a club member (although I think a lot of clubs demand the marker is a member anyway, my club apparently states a marker must be a member of the club with a handicap)
		
Click to expand...

I think you are confusing yourself. MyEG already requires that the marker must be a registered user of the MyEG app, otherwise they wouldn't be able to attest a score.


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## wjemather (Oct 28, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			What was the new "attestation functionality" advertised as being able to do?
		
Click to expand...

HDID is specified as alerting both parties to mis-matched scores, with submission not being done until such issues have been resolved. From the release notes...

"At the end of the round, it will validate all our scores against each other, flag any discrepancies and the scores won't be able to be submitted until they all tally up.

At the end of the round the first player to submit their score will proceed back to the Today's Golf page with their "Score Entered - Pending Confirmation".
When the second player completes their round all the scores will be validated against the scores player 1 has submitted, if all the scores validate then player 2 will proceed as normal and both scores will be submitted.
If the scores don't validate, then for player 2 we will show a 'Discrepancies' modal for the scores which don't match between the player and marker.
If the second player has the incorrect score they will select 'Edit' at the bottom of the 'Discrepancies' modal and they will then be able to go to any incorrect holes, edit the score and resubmit.
If player 1 has entered the incorrect score they will be able to select 'Edit' on their pending score and they will then be able to go in and edit the scores and resubmit. In this case Player 2 will then be able to select 'Re-check' on the Discrepancies modal to check the new score submitted by player 1, if all the scores now match then both scores will be submitted."


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I think you are confusing yourself. MyEG already requires that the marker must be a registered user of the MyEG app, otherwise they wouldn't be able to attest a score.
		
Click to expand...

Good point, I got ahead of myself there. So, I assume MyEG could require the marker to enter the players score as well as the player themselves anyway? I'm not sure if that demand is currently there, I've only ever used it with another guy who is also entering a score. I assume if he wasn't, MyEG would simply send him a notification to verify the score that I enter. Therefore, he could just assume "it'll be alright" and hit accept without actually checking very hard. That is my mentality when I get a notification from any app these days, act in a way that makes it disappear as quickly as possible.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 28, 2021)

wjemather said:



			HDID is specified as alerting both parties to mis-matched scores, with submission not being done until such issues have been resolved. From the release notes...

"At the end of the round, it will validate all our scores against each other, flag any discrepancies and the scores won't be able to be submitted until they all tally up.

At the end of the round the first player to submit their score will proceed back to the Today's Golf page with their "Score Entered - Pending Confirmation".
When the second player completes their round all the scores will be validated against the scores player 1 has submitted, if all the scores validate then player 2 will proceed as normal and both scores will be submitted.
If the scores don't validate, then for player 2 we will show a 'Discrepancies' modal for the scores which don't match between the player and marker.
If the second player has the incorrect score they will select 'Edit' at the bottom of the 'Discrepancies' modal and they will then be able to go to any incorrect holes, edit the score and resubmit.
If player 1 has entered the incorrect score they will be able to select 'Edit' on their pending score and they will then be able to go in and edit the scores and resubmit. In this case Player 2 will then be able to select 'Re-check' on the Discrepancies modal to check the new score submitted by player 1, if all the scores now match then both scores will be submitted."


Click to expand...

Fair enough....that's pretty clear and plainly obvious from MJC's post that it isn't working as "advertised".


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 28, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I guess it depends on what the vendors have interpreted that "attestation" means.

It appears to me that, the way things have been implemented, attestation is simply "I agree with the scores that the player has entered"....whereas the expectation, from your (not unreasonable) point of view, is that attestation should involve the automated cross checking of marker v. player scores and flagging any errors, if the score data is there to support such a thing.

As I understand it in the England Golf app (and in the MasterScoreboard App...front end of HandicapMaster) there is absolutely no compunction on a player who has been nominated as a marker by someone else, for that player to enter his own scores, or those of the player he is marking for, in the App.....so there can be no automated cross checking by the "system". Thinking about it....I'm not sure why would it work this way....its perfectly possible for someone to play in a comp with someone who is not in the comp and for that player to act as their marker.

What was the new "attestation functionality" advertised as being able to do?
		
Click to expand...

This was released by ClubSystems in June 2021 and was the basis for my expectation.

• Enhanced Markers Scoring Example 

Connor would select Adam as "Marker" and select Darren as "Marking For", Adam selects Connor as his "Marking For" and Darren as his "Marker", Darren selects Connor as his "Marker" and Adam as his "Marking For". 

Connor enters his own scores and Darren's scores, Adam enters his scores and Connors scores, and Darren enters his scores and Adam's scores.* At the end of the round, it will validate all of the scores against each other, flag any discrepancies and scores won't be able to be submitted until they all tally up.*


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2021)

Positive move forward
​







*Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents*





With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores. 

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software. 

*What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club? *

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

*What does this mean for the player? *

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Positive move forward
​







*Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents*





With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

*What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club? *

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

*What does this mean for the player? *

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent. I'm no longer a Handicap Sec as I moved clubs, but this is one of the things I suggested could be a good idea to England Golf. I remember also mentioning it somewhere in these forums, and one or 2 ridiculed it. Despite my frustrations at having to constantly check these, and chase players, apparently others said it was a non issue (I suspect it was a non issue because they didn't bother checking). Anyway, good to see they are updating things where they think improvements can be made. Hopefully it works well for those on handicap committees


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## wjemather (Nov 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Positive move forward
​







*Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents*





With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

*What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club? *

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

*What does this mean for the player? *

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.
		
Click to expand...

All well and good, but (at present and as advertised) it only covers general play.

Until ISVs start recording intents for competition scores and stop pushing through all "0"s as a valid score for handicapping, committees will still have to follow up >90% of unreturned scores - EG obviously do not have sight of these though.

In addition, players will start getting chase emails and penalty scores as a result of buggy software problems, such as ClubV1's PSI which (still!) returns junk if the score submission process is not completed fully.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2021)

wjemather said:



			All well and good, but (at present and as advertised) it only covers general play.

Until ISVs start recording intents for competition scores and stop pushing through all "0"s as a valid score for handicapping, committees will still have to follow up >90% of unreturned scores - EG obviously do not have sight of these though.

In addition, players will start getting chase emails and penalty scores as a result of buggy software problems, such as ClubV1's PSI which (still!) returns junk if the score submission process is not completed fully.
		
Click to expand...

I might be missing something here. Why would the PSI submission process not be completed fully?


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## wjemather (Nov 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I might be missing something here. Why would the PSI submission process not be completed fully?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't tested or seen it myself but that is what CSIcare diagnosed as the cause after I reported the following happening occasionally... Originally scores were increased by a duplicate 18 holes to make a 36 hole score, but since being "fixed" it now records only 9 actual scores and 9 zeros doubled up for a 36 hole score. Obviously this nonsense gets rejected by WHS, but the intent remains unsatisfied.


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## fenwayrich (Nov 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Positive move forward
​





This detail has not yet reached me. Would you be able to tell me where to download it please?


*Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents*





With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

*What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club? *

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

*What does this mean for the player? *

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.
		
Click to expand...


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## nickjdavis (Nov 4, 2021)

They state that they recommend that the Committee apply a penalty score of CR+CH for deleted score intents where the committee decide the reason is invalid....are EG going to apply the same automated penalty for Unsatisfied Intents?

It is not clear...but then....you could say that about a lot of the stuff that EG send out.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2021)

EG has just informed me that there is a report that will count the number of competition scores in a period vs the number of General play scores in the 2021 Review process


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2021)

rulefan said:



			EG has just informed me that there is a report that will count the number of competition scores in a period vs the number of General play scores in the 2021 Review process
		
Click to expand...

Been available for a while.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Been available for a while.
		
Click to expand...

Yes. I couldn't/can't find the thread but there was a discussion about identifying players with few scores in their record and a question was asked about identifying them. There didn't seem to be a definitive answer at the time about how it could be done so I asked EG to confirm that there was a suitable report available. The reply came this morning.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 6, 2021)

Regarding the automatic penalties for non submission of a score intent....does anyone know how long after the intent is registered that a player has to enter his score before a penalty is applied?


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Regarding the automatic penalties for non submission of a score intent....does anyone know how long after the intent is registered that a player has to enter his score before a penalty is applied?
		
Click to expand...

I presume same day as my understanding you need to be at the location to enter and record the score.


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## wjemather (Nov 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Regarding the automatic penalties for non submission of a score intent....does anyone know how long after the intent is registered that a player has to enter his score before a penalty is applied?
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			I presume same day as my understanding you need to be at the location to enter and record the score.
		
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I would imagine the same process would be in place as they have for their iGolf subscribers. From their iGolf procedures:
"*Non-Return of Scores*​
Any delay in posting a pre-registered score could result in a penalty score being added to a players record.
Failure to submit a pre-registered score without good reason will result in a penalty score being added.
In the first instance, players will be contacted for failing to submit a pre-registered round. If no valid reason is provided or the score not submitted, a further notification will be sent advising that the player has 48 hours to resolve and/or submit the score.​Failure to do so would see the addition of a penalty score equal to course rating + course handicap being added to a player’s record.​If a player needs a subsequent warning for not submitting a pre-registered score, a further period of 48 hours will be given to correct.​After this time lapse, failure to do so would result in a review by the iGolf Handicap Committee and an additional penalty score added to a player’s record.​The committee could also decide that the player’s handicap should be frozen, and a formal warning issued.​A formal warning would result in the withdrawal of the players handicap index."​


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 8, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I haven't tested or seen it myself but that is what CSIcare diagnosed as the cause after I reported the following happening occasionally... Originally scores were increased by a duplicate 18 holes to make a 36 hole score, but since being "fixed" it now records only 9 actual scores and 9 zeros doubled up for a 36 hole score. Obviously this nonsense gets rejected by WHS, but the intent remains unsatisfied.
		
Click to expand...

I've seen this a couple of times but didn't realise where it had come from. Had to delete the round and reload it.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I presume same day as my understanding you need to be at the location to enter and record the score.
		
Click to expand...

This isn't my experience....either with the England Golf App or the HandicapMaster/Masterscoreboard App. You can be anywhere and enter a score. The only restriction is that you need to be in the vicinity of the club when using the MyEG app to register your intent to submit a score.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Positive move forward
​







*Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents*





With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

*What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club? *

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

*What does this mean for the player? *

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.
		
Click to expand...

Is this all going to work on the England Golf system regardless of ISV?


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Is this all going to work on the England Golf system regardless of ISV?
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully this answered the question:


We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully this answered the question:


We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.
		
Click to expand...

I saw that but if they are going to tell Club Systems to do this it's not going to happen soon I fear. The Unsatisfied Rounds appear against the player on the EG Platform, this is also where you process a penalty score, so I wondered if they were going to do it at the centre and then just update the local record in the usual way.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 11, 2021)

I registered a score intent last Friday and have deliberately not uploaded my score to see how the new process might work. Six days on and there is no sign of any automated penalties being applied, neither have I had any warnings/chasing emails.


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## wjemather (Nov 11, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I registered a score intent last Friday and have deliberately not uploaded my score to see how the new process might work. Six days on and there is no sign of any automated penalties being applied, neither have I had any warnings/chasing emails.
		
Click to expand...

I'd hope for some proper communication from EG before activating such features. Also, as yet there is no "Penalty Score report" on the portal, which is a critical part of this for handicap committees.

It's a shame EG do not communicate directly with handicap committees and rely on club management (often via county unions) to forward these things on.


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## IanMcC (Nov 11, 2021)

I know there are ways and means around it via apps, but I tell my members that if they want to pre-register a round, they do it with me via email, text, whatsapp etc. Its a little extra work, but there is no 'manipulation'. If they don't submit a card, without a valid reason, then a penalty score is applied. I've only had to apply a penalty score once for a non return of a pre-registered card.
We were getting 2 or 3 a day in the summer. I know other clubs have more, but we have 3 qualifying comps a week in the Summer months, so no great need for extras.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 11, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I registered a score intent last Friday and have deliberately not uploaded my score to see how the new process might work. Six days on and there is no sign of any automated penalties being applied, neither have I had any warnings/chasing emails.
		
Click to expand...

Supposed to start at the end of November.


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## rulefan (Nov 11, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Supposed to start at the end of November.
		
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Do you have a source for that?


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I'd hope for some proper communication from EG before activating such features. Also, as yet there is no "Penalty Score report" on the portal, which is a critical part of this for handicap committees.

It's a shame EG do not communicate directly with handicap committees and rely on club management (often via county unions) to forward these things on.
		
Click to expand...

I presumed the email that went out to clubs was the communication however I agree, a “Penalty Score Report” would be useful.


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## wjemather (Nov 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I presumed the email that went out to clubs was the communication however I agree, a “Penalty Score Report” would be useful.
		
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Disappointing if that is all we get. I'd like to know exactly how it is going to work before it happens; specifically, I'd like to know if it only applies to MyEG pre-registrations? This was my initial assumption, however the wording of the comms suggests all intents are covered... If it does also apply to ISV-registered intents, what direction is being given to submit the score (given ISV software only allows score submission on the day of registration)? And per my earlier comment, for most committees, competitions generate the bulk of their unreturned scores and since no intent gets registered by ISVs for competition scores these will fall through the gap (chasm) here. It would also be good to know the exact wording of the email. Etc., etc., etc.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 11, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Do you have a source for that?
		
Click to expand...

Second hand from our regional handicap rep who was on an England Golf briefing. Can't remember if she said 26th or 29th November for implementation. I presume this will be for MyEnglandGolf app as it's unlikely HDID will change that quickly. 

I still wonder if this will operate at the WHS platform level and not the ISV level but I guess we will see.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 12, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			. I presume this will be for MyEnglandGolf app as it's unlikely HDID will change that quickly.

.
		
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Surely it shouldnt matter which app is used. The DotGolf platform knows when a score intent is registered using the clubs competition management software (MasterScoreboard App working as the front end of Handicapmaster in my clubs case) and can see that a score has not been submitted so can apply the penalty score in its own system which then becomes part of the players record on his home clubs system when the two systems synchronise. 

To my mind I don't see ANY work involved at all for the front end suppliers....after all, it is no different from your handicap secretary entering a penalty score manually in the Dotgolf platform.


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## wjemather (Nov 12, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Surely it shouldnt matter which app is used. The DotGolf platform knows when a score intent is registered using the clubs competition management software (MasterScoreboard App working as the front end of Handicapmaster in my clubs case) and can see that a score has not been submitted so can apply the penalty score in its own system which then becomes part of the players record on his home clubs system when the two systems synchronise.

To my mind I don't see ANY work involved at all for the front end suppliers....after all, it is no different from your handicap secretary entering a penalty score manually in the Dotgolf platform.
		
Click to expand...

Seems fairly obvious that a competition sign-in should generate an intent, but this does not happen with ClubV1 (and IG afaik); i.e. they do not generate unfulfilled intents on WHS for unreturned competition scores.

How does HM function in this regard?


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## nickjdavis (Nov 12, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Seems fairly obvious that a competition sign-in should generate an intent, but this does not happen with ClubV1 (and IG afaik); i.e. they do not generate unfulfilled intents on WHS for unreturned competition scores.

How does HM function in this regard?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately we currently do not get players to pre-register/ sign in for competitions via a PSI as we do not have one (We've been trying to get one for a few months but there are seemingly supply issues...surprise surprise!!) so cannot comment on whether HM/MasterScoreboard generates an unfulfilled score intent when a player registers for a comp but does not enter a score.....as you say...you would think it would be a no-brainer that an intent was generated, but, we have all learned over the last 2 years that, what we think are no brainers, EG simply fail to grasp the same concept.

My comments were specifically related to general play scores registered via the local club App (as opposed to MyEG) for which the "new" automated penalties will be generated. I was addressing mikejohnchapmans question which, given the prior discussion, I assumed was about the application of penalty scores for unfulfilled general play intents registered via the ISV app.

Communication from EG this afternoon indicates the 29th as the "go-live" date for automated general play penalties.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2021)

All our comps you must pre register before play either via PSI or in the case of the seniors sections via the sign in book held by the shop. Member of the relevant committee then does a quick check to ensure all cards are accounted for at the end of the comp. Any discrepancies are dealt with by the HC member for that section.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 12, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Seems fairly obvious that a competition sign-in should generate an intent, but this does not happen with ClubV1 (and IG afaik); i.e. they do not generate unfulfilled intents on WHS for unreturned competition scores.

How does HM function in this regard?
		
Click to expand...

I think the penalty score announcement was General Play only.


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## 2blue (Nov 12, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I haven't tested or seen it myself but that is what CSIcare diagnosed as the cause after I reported the following happening occasionally... Originally scores were increased by a duplicate 18 holes to make a 36 hole score, but since being "fixed" it now records only 9 actual scores and 9 zeros doubled up for a 36 hole score. Obviously this nonsense gets rejected by WHS, but the intent remains unsatisfied.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah we've had this 36 hole business...  have reported it but we put it down to out erratic Wifii connection. ...  so interested in in your post.


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## wjemather (Nov 13, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think the penalty score announcement was General Play only.
		
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Indeed, but GP is a very small proportion of most committee workloads. If EG really want to make like easier, they need to go much further and work with the ISVs on competition scores.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Indeed, but GP is a very small proportion of most committee workloads. If EG really want to make like easier, they need to go much further and work with the ISVs on competition scores.
		
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Personally, I felt general play scores caused the biggest headache.

Competitions were easy, firstly as scores at our club were processed by the comp sec, not handicap sec (albeit when WHS we needed to discuss appropriate penalty scores). However, as the field was known, it was easy to know who no returned, and it was easy to know when these rounds were played and thus scores expected.

General play rounds were a pain as they are played daily, and by many different / random people. Some of them never play comps as well, so their ability to follow procedure was often lacking. I wasn't going to go chasing or dealing with scores daily, so an automatic penalty would have been great assistance.

That being said, I still agree that it should be consistent for both general play and competition rounds.


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## Griffsters (Nov 13, 2021)

Has anyone seen anything regarding how its decided what penalty is applied? There is some nuance involved regarding individual players - its possible a penalty score would be a good result dependent on circumstance


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## wjemather (Nov 13, 2021)

Griffsters said:



			Has anyone seen anything regarding how its decided what penalty is applied? There is some nuance involved regarding individual players - its possible a penalty score would be a good result dependent on circumstance 

Click to expand...

I understand that _CR+Course Handicap_ will be applied automatically (the assumption being that no manipulation is intended), and handicap committees should review and adjust to a high/low differential if necessary.


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## Griffsters (Nov 13, 2021)

Thanks, so effectively its processing intents rather than 'penalty' as such. Still quite a bit of monitoring to be done - it would be good to have some more customisable reports available to see trends over a season etc

Still, it seems to be moving in the right direction I think.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2021)

Might have been mentioned before, but seems it is not possible to submit 2 general play scores in 1 day using howdidido. Played this morning, and then we went out for another 9. Wouldn't allow me to pre register as it said I had already pre registered today (even though that score had already been submitted)


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## Golfie (Nov 14, 2021)

Course rating + course handicap - not much penalty would be one of my best eight.  I can see some players happy with that outcome.


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## wjemather (Nov 14, 2021)

Golfie said:



			Course rating + course handicap - not much penalty would be one of my best eight.  I can see some players happy with that outcome.
		
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CR+CH would be part of every player's best 8, and would commonly result in a small reduction in handicap index, however a second offence may result in suspension of handicap index.


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## HampshireHog (Nov 16, 2021)

I have 2x36 hole comps on my record with the both showing the rounds played displayed in MyEG shown in the wrong order.

ie: the afternoon round has dropped out of the 20 but the the morning round is still included

HI is calculated using the afternoon round but it looks weird and only shows 7 qualifiers on the graph

Shows correctly on IG though.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 16, 2021)

Annual Review - Observations

Our Handicap Committee met this evening to conclude our AR. The experience was interesting to say the least.

As per the guidance we looked at the Handicap Review Report which contained 6 members, 2 of whom we wished to adjust.
We also looked at the hard / soft cap report and decided we wish to adjust 15 members who were struggling for various reasons.

Having concluded our discussions and agreed the necessary adjustments we had a great deal of difficulty making the changes - specifically for those on or very near the hard cap. To make any change we had to reset the low index otherwise any adjustment was nullified by the hard cap. If we reset the LI and applied a 1 shot positive adjustment the impact was between 3 and 5 shots for those who had hit the hard cap. In most cases this was more than we wanted to adjust.

We agreed we would have to play with each players record to achieve the desired results - a fairly lengthy process compared with trying to give someone who's struggling a shot back!

Has anyone else been struggling with this or got any views on how best to simply adjust members HI?


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## 2blue (Nov 16, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Annual Review - Observations

Our Handicap Committee met this evening to conclude our AR. The experience was interesting to say the least.

As per the guidance we looked at the Handicap Review Report which contained 6 members, 2 of whom we wished to adjust.
We also looked at the hard / soft cap report and decided we wish to adjust 15 members who were struggling for various reasons.

Having concluded our discussions and agreed the necessary adjustments we had a great deal of difficulty making the changes - specifically for those on or very near the hard cap. To make any change we had to reset the low index otherwise any adjustment was nullified by the hard cap. If we reset the LI and applied a 1 shot positive adjustment the impact was between 3 and 5 shots for those who had hit the hard cap. In most cases this was more than we wanted to adjust.

We agreed we would have to play with each players record to achieve the desired results - a fairly lengthy process compared with trying to give someone who's struggling a shot back!

Has anyone else been struggling with this or got any views on how best to simply adjust members HI?
		
Click to expand...

Discussion on the HDIDo Forum suggests that the adjustment has to be applied to all the last 20 scores. Am interested in this as we have our AHR in a couple of weeks


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Discussion on the HDIDo Forum suggests that the adjustment has to be applied to all the last 20 scores. Am interested in this as we have our AHR in a couple of weeks
		
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As the user, I'd have thought 1 simple adjustment is only required. Technically, that adjustment is applied to all 20 scores.

However, that is not to say that it works as simple as that, there has been enough rubbish within the IT to date to suggest there wont be issues. The soft cap and hard caps are something that may throw a spanner in the works


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## sawtooth (Nov 17, 2021)

I was under the impression that the caps should be checked and if necessary adjusted as soon the player reaches 20 scores.

The initial cap setting can be off from the get go and should not wait for a AHR.

Also, what reports (if any) or strategies are secretaries using to identify suspicious activity? ie players working the system especially with self entry, general play scores.

Also, this past week we had a returning player ( after a 2 year absence from golf) submit 3 cards. We all know that his playing standard is around 9 or 10 yet the system allocated an index of 6.4 , seems a bit low. Even with the slope that makes his PH 7.
We'll see how this handicap settles down as time goes on but it could take 20 scores lol to get a true reflection of his playing abilities.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 17, 2021)

sawtooth said:



			Also, this past week we had a returning player ( after a 2 year absence from golf) submit 3 cards. We all know that his playing standard is around 9 or 10 yet the system allocated an index of 6.4 , seems a bit low. Even with the slope that makes his PH 7.
We'll see how this handicap settles down as time goes on but it could take 20 scores lol to get a true reflection of his playing abilities.
		
Click to expand...

Remember that initial handicap and early handicaps when 20 scores have not been submitted have an additional reduction over the lowest score, if he was around 9 before, and submitted similar scores this time, 6.4 sounds in the right area. He'll go up as more scores are submitted.


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## wjemather (Nov 17, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Annual Review - Observations

Our Handicap Committee met this evening to conclude our AR. The experience was interesting to say the least.

As per the guidance we looked at the Handicap Review Report which contained 6 members, 2 of whom we wished to adjust.
We also looked at the hard / soft cap report and decided we wish to adjust 15 members who were struggling for various reasons.

Having concluded our discussions and agreed the necessary adjustments we had a great deal of difficulty making the changes - specifically for those on or very near the hard cap. To make any change we had to reset the low index otherwise any adjustment was nullified by the hard cap. If we reset the LI and applied a 1 shot positive adjustment the impact was between 3 and 5 shots for those who had hit the hard cap. In most cases this was more than we wanted to adjust.

We agreed we would have to play with each players record to achieve the desired results - a fairly lengthy process compared with trying to give someone who's struggling a shot back!

Has anyone else been struggling with this or got any views on how best to simply adjust members HI?
		
Click to expand...

Like you our Cap report will take more work than the AHR report, which only contains 5 players, of which only 3 warrant discussion (the other two being improvers who have been flagged for having high scores).

Resetting the Low Handicap Index seems like sufficient action in most cap cases, especially those where Soft/Hard Cap has kicked in immediately on reaching 20 scores, since the best 8 average will produce an acceptable Index. Ridiculously, resetting the LHI is still a two step process that requires applying positive and negative adjustments that cancel each other out - why can't we just have a button for this?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2021)

sawtooth said:



			I was under the impression that the caps should be checked and if necessary adjusted as soon the player reaches 20 scores.

The initial cap setting can be off from the get go and should not wait for a AHR.

Also, what reports (if any) or strategies are secretaries using to identify suspicious activity? ie players working the system especially with self entry, general play scores.

Also, this past week we had a returning player ( after a 2 year absence from golf) submit 3 cards. We all know that his playing standard is around 9 or 10 yet the* system allocated an index of 6.4 , seems a bit low.* Even with the slope that makes his PH 7.
We'll see how this handicap settles down as time goes on but it could take 20 scores lol to get a true reflection of his playing abilities.
		
Click to expand...

Remember, the Index after 3 cards is based on the lowest card, and then it subtracts 2.0. Once he hands in a 4th, it only subtracts 1.0 from lowest, then after 5 subtracts 0.0 from lowest. So, if his next 2 rounds are not his best round, his Index will be 2.0 higher.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Discussion on the HDIDo Forum suggests that the adjustment has to be applied to all the last 20 scores. Am interested in this as we have our AHR in a couple of weeks
		
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If the player has 20 scores in their playing record when you make the adjustment on the EG Platform it updates all 20 scores automatically with the same adjustment.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 17, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As the user, I'd have thought 1 simple adjustment is only required. Technically, that adjustment is applied to all 20 scores.

However, that is not to say that it works as simple as that, there has been enough rubbish within the IT to date to suggest there wont be issues. The soft cap and hard caps are something that may throw a spanner in the works
		
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You are right - the softcaps and hardcap make it very difficult to predict the impact of an adjustment but unfortunately these are some of the players that for various reasons need adjustments.

If you reset the low index when making adjustments the HI can jump by 3-5 shots depending on their playing record. If you don't reset it the adjustment can have no impact as they slam into the hard cap.

Oh for the days you could add one or two shots to someone's handicap.


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## sawtooth (Nov 18, 2021)

I didn't notice the handicap review guidance paper here....will take a look.

https://www.englandgolf.org/handicapping/club-resources/


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## rulefan (Nov 19, 2021)

*Handicap Master Version 11 Preview*

Of interest to some?

https://handicapmaster.org/preview/new11changes.php


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## IanMcC (Nov 23, 2021)

Our course is not suitable for qualifying rounds in the winter, as we have preferred lies in the entire General Area, and also rake and place in the bunkers.
I was browsing through the recently entered scores section of WHS Dashboard, and I noticed that a 4 ball from another club had played a round where all their scores went through as qualifiers.
I have since turned off the Default Markers under Settings for our course.
Does the forum think this is sufficient, or should I inform M&H of the club that they are a member of, as he may wish to discount their rounds?


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			Our course is not suitable for qualifying rounds in the winter, as we have preferred lies in the entire General Area, and also rake and place in the bunkers.
I was browsing through the recently entered scores section of WHS Dashboard, and I noticed that a 4 ball from another club had played a round where all their scores went through as qualifiers.
I have since turned off the Default Markers under Settings for our course.
Does the forum think this is sufficient, or should I inform M&H of the club that they are a member of, as he may wish to discount their rounds?
		
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If they played as per your post then yes.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 23, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			or should I inform M&H of the club that they are a member of, as he may wish to discount their rounds?
		
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You should do this, and should have made your course inactive as soon as your winter course went live. Folks don;t know and if they see it some will play and enter a GP score


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## IanMcC (Nov 23, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You should do this, and should have made your course inactive as soon as your winter course went live. Folks don;t know and if they see it some will play and enter a GP score
		
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I should have made the course inactive, yes. In my defence, however, our members are instructed clearly both of the course status, and the method of pre-registering a round, which is direct contact with me. It is only with visitors that this could happen.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2021)

Just got an email from England Golf saying I have an unregistered score intent, and a penalty score will be added on 3 December if not entered.

I have not played golf in over 2 weeks. I have not been near the MyEG App. I've gone on to MyEG App and there is no sign of it waiting for a score. Nor in howdidido.The email doesnt indicate a date of pre registration. Is this a balls up?


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## wjemather (Dec 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Just got an email from England Golf saying I have an unregistered score intent, and a penalty score will be added on 3 December if not entered.

I have not played golf in over 2 weeks. I have not been near the MyEG App. I've gone on to MyEG App and there is no sign of it waiting for a score. Nor in howdidido.The email doesnt indicate a date of pre registration. Is this a balls up?
		
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Could be an old intent, although there was supposed to be an amnesty for pre-November registrations. I suggest you ask your handicap committee to check your record on the WHS Platform.

EDIT: To confirm, the few outstanding unsatisfied intents from prior to 1st November have been deleted for our members.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Could be an old intent, although there was supposed to be an amnesty for pre-November registrations. I suggest you ask your handicap committee to check your record on the WHS Platform.

EDIT: To confirm, the few outstanding unsatisfied intents from prior to 1st November have been deleted for our members.
		
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Interesting, just chatted to handicap sec.

On 13 November, I registered and submitted an 18 hole round as normal. After submission of scores, they appeared on MyEG scoring history, albeit Index not yet updated (as normal).

 We had lunch, and decided to have another 9 holes. I tried to register a 9 hole round, but howdidido said I couldn't, as I had already registered that day. So, I turned to MyEg, and that worked fine. Next day, both scores on record, job done.

However, the handicap secretary has informed me that the unregistered intent is from that day. I have no idea if that was from the failed attempt to register the second round on howdidido, or simply a bug because I played 2 rounds and/or used 2 apps? Certainly neither App seemed to tell me there was a score awaiting entry, and only the handicap sec could see this on WHS Portal. 

Might just be something to look out for if anyone is a handicap sec.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 3, 2021)

We have just had our first 2 penalty scores applied - one was from a MyEnglandGolf registered score (away) and one via HDID at home.

In both cases the score was not CR + CH as advertised but 18 X NDB - big scores.

If this stays it will be spotted by some as a way to pad their handicap I fear.


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## wjemather (Dec 3, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We have just had our first 2 penalty scores applied - one was from a MyEnglandGolf registered score (away) and one via HDID at home.

In both cases the score was not CR + CH as advertised but 18 X NDB - big scores.

If this stays it will be spotted by some as a way to pad their handicap I fear.
		
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If padding is suspected, the PS SDs should be changed to reflect the lowest counting SD; and repeat offenders should have their index suspended.


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## rulefan (Dec 3, 2021)

I am no longer at the sharp end of the handicap system management (ie don't press any buttons) but have been asked - when a player gets a 'un-entered score' penalty warning from the system, is a message also sent to the club?
We happen to use V1/HDID but I assume the message(s) are sent directly from WHS.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 3, 2021)

wjemather said:



			If padding is suspected, the PS SDs should be changed to reflect the lowest counting SD; and repeat offenders should have their index suspended.
		
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Padding or not, if the penalty score is as mike states, that is worrying and bizarre. I would like to think most NRs have nothing to do with players trying to manipulate their handicap, they are to do with forgetfulness. If that is the case, the WHS guidance is to add a penalty score of CR+Course Handicap. The WHS guidance of adding a penalty score equal to a players worst score in 20 applies if there is a feeling that player was trying to manipulate their handicap downwards (i.e. not submitting bad scores). Even that penalty score should be well below 18 X NDB. So, if the IT is automatically doing what Mike says, I think that is a ridiculous oversight.


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## rulefan (Dec 3, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We have just had our first 2 penalty scores applied - one was from a MyEnglandGolf registered score (away) and one via HDID at home.
In both cases the score was not CR + CH as advertised but 18 X NDB - big scores.
		
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In the case above (our first it seems) the player was 'experimenting' with the HDID app. He 'registered' and did nothing else. His penalty score was 18 x NDB.

But was this a function of the HDID or WHS software?


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## wjemather (Dec 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I am no longer at the sharp end of the handicap system management (ie don't press any buttons) but have been asked - when a player gets a 'un-entered score' penalty warning from the system, is a message also sent to the club?
We happen to use V1/HDID but I assume the message(s) are sent directly from WHS.
		
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There do not appear to be any club notifications; committees must manually run a report on EG's WHS Platform.

The lack of engagement with club committees over this is very apparent in the way it's been implemented. It seems to me that it has been done primarily to ensure PSs are applied, probably because they was a feeling that committees were being too lenient (or simply ignoring unreturned scores), rather than (as promoted) reduce committee workloads.


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## wjemather (Dec 3, 2021)

With regards to 18xNDB, I'm wondering if the intent actually holds all the necessary information about the course and set of tees being played. If it does, why hasn't this been made visible to clubs? Would have made chasing missing away scores a lot easier as players rightly assume you have these details already. And if not, why isn't the PS simply recorded against a dummy course in order to achieve the desired SD (i.e. roughly equal to HI)?


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## nickjdavis (Dec 3, 2021)

On the back of the above I just checked our "penalty score" report.

We have had a penalty score applied (this morning at just gone midnight) to one of our players (an away round) and can confirm the penalty score was nett double bogeys on every hole.

According to the system he played a round on the Sunday and registered and entered that score successfully, but seemingly registered for a round on the Monday, but hasn't entered a score.


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## rulefan (Dec 3, 2021)

I wonder how many 'ghost' registration entries arise because of players 'just trying the system' to see how it works.


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## nickjdavis (Dec 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I wonder how many 'ghost' registration entries arise because of players 'just trying the system' to see how it works.
		
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We probably had quite a few in the early days but the number has definitely dropped off in the intervening months.

Our H'cap Sec has written to England Golf asking why the penalty score is NDB and not CR+CH as they stated it should be.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I am no longer at the sharp end of the handicap system management (ie don't press any buttons) but have been asked - when a player gets a 'un-entered score' penalty warning from the system, is a message also sent to the club?
We happen to use V1/HDID but I assume the message(s) are sent directly from WHS.
		
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Yes the message is from WHS to the player. No copy to the club.

However, some new reports have arrived on the EG platform which show penalty scores applied as well as unsatisfied score intents.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			In the case above (our first it seems) the player was 'experimenting' with the HDID app. He 'registered' and did nothing else. His penalty score was 18 x NDB.

But was this a function of the HDID or WHS software?
		
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I think it's general as one was from MyEnglandGolf app and one from HDID.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 3, 2021)

wjemather said:



			There do not appear to be any club notifications; committees must manually run a report on EG's WHS Platform.

The lack of engagement with club committees over this is very apparent in the way it's been implemented. It seems to me that it has been done primarily to ensure PSs are applied, probably because they was a feeling that committees were being too lenient (or simply ignoring unreturned scores), rather than (as promoted) reduce committee workloads.
		
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I think an equally large concern is for iGolf where the MyEnglandGolf app allows the user to remove unsatisfied score intents.


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## wjemather (Dec 3, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think an equally large concern is for iGolf where the MyEnglandGolf app allows the user to remove unsatisfied score intents.
		
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Indeed. I'm sure that's been done purely to save EG requiring a support facility for iGolf subscribers who pre-register in error. It now means committees have to monitor the deleted intents report and assess the reasons given for deletion.


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## IanMcC (Dec 3, 2021)

I am so glad I ask players to pre-register with me, rather than some daft app, if they want to submit a General Play Score.
No Unsatisfied Score Intents, 34 Penalty Scores, all applied by me, and all of them CH + CR. (All for not returning cards either electronically or physically.)
No need for any deletions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 3, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			I am so glad I ask players to pre-register with me, rather than some daft app, if they want to submit a General Play Score.
No Unsatisfied Score Intents, 34 Penalty Scores, all applied by me, and all of them CH + CR. (All for not returning cards either electronically or physically.)
No need for any deletions.
		
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How do you stop people using the EG App when they add their scores in ?


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## IanMcC (Dec 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you stop people using the EG App when they add their scores in ?
		
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No one does it. They are all 'trained' to pre-register with me, even if its a round in England or Scotland. Its a simple email or text before the round, then they send me a pic of the card and i process it.
Its Wales Golf for me, btw.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 3, 2021)

IanMcC said:



			No one does it. They are all 'trained' to pre-register with me, even if its a round in England or Scotland. Its a simple email or text before the round, then they send me a pic of the card and i process it.
Its Wales Golf for me, btw.
		
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Very well trained and obedient members. At my place, not a chance in heaven that would have worked. I'd also have expected a few complaints as soon as they realised they could just do it on the app, like their mates at other clubs do. 

Also impressed with your dedication. With so many scores coming in at our place, that would have taken over my life. 

I decided there was no choice but to go with the flow, warts and all. If the authorities are pushing us that way, might as well dive in. Loads of mistakes, loads of not pre registering but submitting a score, loads of no returns, etc. All the stuff that made me crazy as handicap sec, and why I could have been well tempted to enforce more control like yourself. But, I just hoped that, over time, WHS would get better, tech would get better, and member awareness would get better.


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## rulefan (Dec 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Very well trained and obedient members. At my place, not a chance in heaven that would have worked. I'd also have expected a few complaints as soon as they realised they could just do it on the app, like their mates at other clubs do.

Also impressed with your dedication. With so many scores coming in at our place, that would have taken over my life.

I decided there was no choice but to go with the flow, warts and all. If the authorities are pushing us that way, might as well dive in. Loads of mistakes, loads of not pre registering but submitting a score, loads of no returns, etc. All the stuff that made me crazy as handicap sec, and why I could have been well tempted to enforce more control like yourself. But, I just hoped that, over time, WHS would get better, tech would get better, and member awareness would get better.
		
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All our members use the HDID app and there haven't been any dissenters. The only problem has been the one I mentioned above. I am waiting to see what happens when our PSIs are back in action.


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## nickjdavis (Dec 4, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Our H'cap Sec has written to England Golf asking why the penalty score is NDB and not CR+CH as they stated it should be.
		
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England Golf have corrected the penalty score so it is now CR+CH.....no explanation as to how the initial error arose mind.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 4, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			England Golf have corrected the penalty score so it is now CR+CH.....no explanation as to how the initial error arose mind.
		
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Interesting - both our players who attracted penalty scores have now been given a HI cut. Doesn't feel right to me but as EG are not communicating I guess they have decided it's OK to improve without playing.

At lease my fears about padding their handicaps are now void.


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## IanMcC (Dec 4, 2021)

CR+CH will usually result in a cut.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 4, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Interesting - both our players who attracted penalty scores have now been given a HI cut. Doesn't feel right to me but as EG are not communicating I guess they have decided it's OK to improve without playing.

At lease my fears about padding their handicaps are now void.
		
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As Ian said, more often than not, CR+Course Handicap penalty score will get a minor handicap cut, unless the oldest score being lost was one of the players best (one of their top 3 or 4 scores)


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## nickjdavis (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As Ian said, more often than not, CR+Course Handicap penalty score will get a minor handicap cut, unless the oldest score being lost was one of the players best (one of their top 3 or 4 scores)
		
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Try telling that to England Golf who are currently arguing with me and saying that a score of CR+CH wont necessarily be part of a players best 8....they clearly don't understand their own system.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Try telling that to England Golf who are currently arguing with me and saying that a score of CR+CH wont necessarily be part of a players best 8....they clearly don't understand their own system.
		
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Well, their only caveat will be if their 20th oldest score was one of their very top scores. So, I'd estimate 75-85% of the time it would result in a decrease in Index.


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## nickjdavis (Dec 6, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, their only caveat will be if their 20th oldest score was one of their very top scores. So, I'd estimate 75-85% of the time it would result in a decrease in Index.
		
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No i get that.

What they are saying is that a penalty score of CH+CR wont necessarily be one of a players best 8 scores. Irrespective of whether a great score wash pushed out of the last 20 or not, the penalty score will always become one of the best 8 scores in a players record by virtue of simple maths.


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## IanMcC (Dec 6, 2021)

Maybe not, but by putting it in a players record it is a penalty, because it will be one of their best 8 soon. Are EG honestly trying to defend 18 NDB?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			No i get that.

What they are saying is that a penalty score of CH+CR wont necessarily be one of a players best 8 scores. Irrespective of whether a great score wash pushed out of the last 20 or not, the penalty score will always become one of the best 8 scores in a players record by virtue of simple maths.
		
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Were you talking to the janitor at England Golf? If it was someone through their support, it is handy if they give the job to people that understand the basics at least


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## Swango1980 (Dec 14, 2021)

I've just noticed that the Booking page on howdidido has changed. It now shows a calendar. If you click on a date, if there is no competition booked in, it appears to allow you to reserve slots for Casual Golf. This is all very well, but it shows all slots outside comps are available for booking. I know this cannot be correct, because most of these slots have already been booked up at our club using BRS booking.

I'm just a regular member at my new club, but maybe it is something for anyone in here using howdidido to look into. It seems that this could cause double bookings if members start to use both systems?


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## wjemather (Dec 14, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've just noticed that the Booking page on howdidido has changed. It now shows a calendar. If you click on a date, if there is no competition booked in, it appears to allow you to reserve slots for Casual Golf. This is all very well, but it shows all slots outside comps are available for booking. I know this cannot be correct, because most of these slots have already been booked up at our club using BRS booking.

I'm just a regular member at my new club, but maybe it is something for anyone in here using howdidido to look into. It seems that this could cause double bookings if members start to use both systems?
		
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Sounds like your club simply haven't configured booking correctly.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 14, 2021)

Looks like HDID is going to get a proximity upgrade!

Notice from Club Systems.

*Safeguarding Handicap Integrity*
The GB&I Golfing governing bodies will be introducing new regulations for the returning of General Play Scores for the purpose of “Safeguarding Handicap Integrity”.

These regulations stipulate a maximum distance that the player can be from the club when a round is pre-registered and a score is returned using a mobile device. They are also stipulating a minimum duration between pre-registration and score submission.

These distance/time limits are as follows for the different home unions;
England 2 Miles/3.2km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Ireland 1.86 Miles 3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Scotland 1 Mile/1.6Km – minimum 45 minutes for 9 hole, 1 hour 30 minutes for 18
Wales 1.86 Miles/3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18

Other National Federations/Unions have not informed us of any updates in their regulations.

In order for us to pinpoint your clubs location, and manage the above from within our software automatically, please check/set your Longitude and Latitude in ClubV1 > Club > Settings > Club Details. This Longitude and Latitude setting should be set for a location where your club wish us to start this measurement, not necessarily from the club house or first tee. To find your Longitude and Latitude, right click on the desired position on Google maps. If a member does not have location (GPS) services enabled on his/her mobile device, a score cannot be pre-registered or submitted.


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## jim8flog (Dec 14, 2021)

Annual Handicap Review

I was bit surprised to see the instruction from EG to carry out an annual handicap review between October and December. The WHS has only been going just over a year and due to lockdowns and unsuitable course due to weather  we have realisticly only had 7 months of playing during 2021..


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## wjemather (Dec 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Annual Handicap Review

I was bit surprised to see the instruction from EG to carry out an annual handicap review between October and December. The WHS has only been going just over a year and due to lockdowns and unsuitable course due to weather  we have realisticly only had 7 months of playing during 2021..
		
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True. However, many people only play March/April to October anyway, and many of the rest will not submit scores for handicap over winter (due to unrated courses, unacceptable local rules, etc.).


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## rulefan (Dec 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Annual Handicap Review

I was bit surprised to see the instruction from EG to carry out an annual handicap review between October and December. The WHS has only been going just over a year and due to lockdowns and unsuitable course due to weather  we have realisticly only had 7 months of playing during 2021..
		
Click to expand...

But note that 
_"It is not recommended that a committee should consider all members’ handicaps for adjustment."_
It is certainly not as onerous this year


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## rosecott (Dec 14, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Looks like HDID is going to get a proximity upgrade!

Notice from Club Systems.

*Safeguarding Handicap Integrity*
The GB&I Golfing governing bodies will be introducing new regulations for the returning of General Play Scores for the purpose of “Safeguarding Handicap Integrity”.

These regulations stipulate a maximum distance that the player can be from the club when a round is pre-registered and a score is returned using a mobile device. They are also stipulating a minimum duration between pre-registration and score submission.

These distance/time limits are as follows for the different home unions;
England 2 Miles/3.2km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Ireland 1.86 Miles 3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Scotland 1 Mile/1.6Km – minimum 45 minutes for 9 hole, 1 hour 30 minutes for 18
Wales 1.86 Miles/3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18

Other National Federations/Unions have not informed us of any updates in their regulations.

In order for us to pinpoint your clubs location, and manage the above from within our software automatically, please check/set your Longitude and Latitude in ClubV1 > Club > Settings > Club Details. This Longitude and Latitude setting should be set for a location where your club wish us to start this measurement, not necessarily from the club house or first tee. To find your Longitude and Latitude, right click on the desired position on Google maps. If a member does not have location (GPS) services enabled on his/her mobile device, a score cannot be pre-registered or submitted.
		
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This has already been activated by the last software update from Handicapmaster and General Play rounds pre-registered using Masterscoreboard are restricted by geo-location.


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## jim8flog (Dec 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			But note that
_"It is not recommended that a committee should consider all members’ handicaps for adjustment."_
It is certainly not as onerous this year
		
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The requirement has not been 'review all players' for many years.

You run the Annual Review Report and it presents a list of those recommended for review. 

However the list is much shorter than previous years.


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## jim8flog (Dec 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			True. However, many people only play March/April to October anyway, and many of the rest will not submit scores for handicap over winter (due to unrated courses, unacceptable local rules, etc.).
		
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 We run comps all year round and judging by the booking sheets etc we do not see a very great fall off of entrants in winter.

One of the requirements is that it should be based upon scores over 1 year, seems a bit contra when most courses will have been completely closed during lockdowns or being in a 'wrong' tier.


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## wjemather (Dec 15, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			We run comps all year round and judging by the booking sheets etc we do not see a very great fall off of entrants in winter.

One of the requirements is that it should be based upon scores over 1 year, seems a bit contra when most courses will have been completely closed during lockdowns or being in a 'wrong' tier.
		
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As do we, but only having a little over 4 hours of daylight tee times in winter inevitably reduces competition entries. We are also fortunate to have a free draining course in southern England, and have our winter tees rated - even so, we still lose at least a month of comps each year to bad weather (frost, sub-zero temperatures, snow, prolonged heavy rain, etc.). Many clubs are severely hampered by wet weather, are not setup acceptably for WHS, or are still battling with county raters to get their winter tees rated.

If we had no golf throughout the summer it would be different, but I'm not seeing any major issue with having annual reviews this year, even with 4-5 months of winter/early spring being lost.


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## rulefan (Dec 15, 2021)

Handicaps should be reviewed and this seems to be an appropriate time. There is nothing to stop a committee doing ad hoc reviews through the year.
This review, whilst not necessarily producing many (or any) adjustments could well highlight players to be watched during the spring/summer. Which might help under resourced committees.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Handicaps should be reviewed and this seems to be an appropriate time. There is nothing to stop a committee doing ad hoc reviews through the year.
This review, whilst not necessarily producing many (or any) adjustments could well highlight players to be watched during the spring/summer. Which might help under resourced committees.
		
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Agreed, and we have maybe half a dozen at most that we'd look at on that basis. But I wouldn't like to look at any and adjust them without seeing what a level playing field report would throw out for all players. Our problem seems to be that Scottish Golf haven't been able to create a report like we used to get from Club 2000, they're saying Feb for the release, but that's rather cutting things fine.


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## louise_a (Dec 15, 2021)

WE held our handicap review and decided to raise the handicaps of 2 of the players recommended for increase, the problem is we want to raise one by 2 shots and it wont let us because her current index is 4.1 more than her low index.
The software says if you need to change the low index and there is a tick box to that says change low index but when I try to it wont let me.

It seems odd that the system is saying put them up but then not letting us do so, does anyone know how we get round this?


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## wjemather (Dec 15, 2021)

louise_a said:



			WE held our handicap review and decided to raise the handicaps of 2 of the players recommended for increase, the problem is we want to raise one by 2 shots and it wont let us because her current index is 4.1 more than her low index.
The software says if you need to change the low index and there is a tick box to that says change low index but when I try to it wont let me.

It seems odd that the system is saying put them up but then not letting us do so, does anyone know how we get round this?
		
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Yes, the problem is down to the order in which the requests are processed... The system attempts to apply the adjustment first, and since it will not allow an increase above the hard cap, an error is returned and the request to reset the Low Handicap Index never gets processed.

The workaround is simple: apply a downward adjustment while resetting the Low Handicap Index, and then apply an upward adjustment (remembering to include reversal of the downward adjustment).

I requested a simple "Reset Low Handicap Index" option many months ago (to make these things easier) but nothing as yet.


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## louise_a (Dec 15, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, the problem is down to the order in which the requests are processed... The system attempts to apply the adjustment first, and since it will not allow an increase above the hard cap, an error is returned and the request to reset the Low Handicap Index never gets processed.

The workaround is simple: apply a downward adjustment while resetting the Low Handicap Index, and then apply an upward adjustment (remembering to include reversal of the downward adjustment).

I requested a simple "Reset Low Handicap Index" option many months ago (to make these things easier) but nothing as yet.
		
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Thanks, I have done what you said and it has taken it but the proposed handicap tomorrow looks too high, I think becuase the low index is getting reset. all the previous 0.5 increases over the soft cap have now been changed to full increases. i think I will have to stop the changes and think again.


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## wjemather (Dec 15, 2021)

louise_a said:



			Thanks, I have done what you said and it has taken it but the proposed handicap tomorrow looks too high, I think becuase the low index is getting reset. all the previous 0.5 increases over the soft cap have now been changed to full increases. i think I will have to stop the changes and think again.
		
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Yes, by resetting the Low Handicap Index, any suppressed increases will be fully applied (e.g. an index 4.0 above the LHI will immediately increase by 1.0, an index at the hard cap will increase by at least 2.0, etc.), so any manual adjustment needs to take account of this.


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## louise_a (Dec 15, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, by resetting the Low Handicap Index, any suppressed increases will be fully applied (e.g. an index 4.0 above the LHI will immediately increase by 1.0, an index at the hard cap will increase by at least 2.0, etc.), so any manual adjustment needs to take account of this.
		
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it increases by more than 1-. it increased by 1.2 but we cant apply a 0.8 adjustment.


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## jim8flog (Dec 16, 2021)

We did the review last night and just 4* were due for amendment compared to the 30 or so we normally get when we had done reviews in Feb/March.

Is this a sign that the WHS is working or just the review was done too early re the the amount of play in the last year?

* We normally get about 100 on the review list and there were just 27.


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## louise_a (Dec 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			We did the review last night and just 4* were due for amendment compared to the 30 or so we normally get when we had done reviews in Feb/March.

Is this a sign that the WHS is working or just the review was done too early re the the amount of play in the last year?

* We normally get about 100 on the review list and there were just 27.
		
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I think it is just because the under the new system handicaps are more accurate so its mainly the ones who are over their soft cap that need looking at. ie people who should be going up a a greater rate than the system sllows


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2022)

Not a WHS matter but a HDID one. For those that use it, since the upgrade and new (and awful) comp booking system, I cannot see where, once a comp has been drawn, where the start sheet comes up. Any ideas or help appreciated


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Not a WHS matter but a HDID one. For those that use it, since the upgrade and new (and awful) comp booking system, I cannot see where, once a comp has been drawn, where the start sheet comes up. Any ideas or help appreciated
		
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Thank goodness someone mentioned this. Booking into out latest comp has been a nightmare, and not sure how much is to do with how it was set up, and how much is to do with howdidido's update.

It was impossible for anyone to book in via howdidido. Tried, it said there were x many spaces, but then you go to next screen and said no spaces. Only way to book in was at the pro shop, and they got us in using the system directly.

However, that was 2 or so weeks ago. Comp is tomorrow. At no point has the start sheet been available on howdidido. Again, it gives you an option to view it, but it is absent when you go to that screen. Wouldn't surprise me if there are a lot of no shows tomorrow.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2022)

Can’t even see the option to view. Cluster muck.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Can’t even see the option to view. Cluster muck.
		
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Well, I should say I just click on the competition on the Booking section (it says under the title "Please view the start sheet"). Once I click on it, it just seems to get stuck on a loading cycle.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, I should say I just click on the competition on the Booking section (it says under the title "Please view the start sheet"). Once I click on it, it just seems to get stuck on a loading cycle.
		
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Once we do the draw, the comp seems to disappear from the booking section.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Once we do the draw, the comp seems to disappear from the booking section.
		
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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2022)

Yep sussed that bit, if, as we do for some comps, stop bookings a couple of days before then the whole thing dissapears.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Yep sussed that bit, if, as we do for some comps, stop bookings a couple of days before then the whole thing dissapears.
		
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I assume our booking are closed as well, as the event is tomorrow. Normally closed a week before the comp.

Either way, it looks like it is a bit of a disaster. I'm surprised it hasn't been fixed if it is a bug, as it has been like this for at least 3-4 weeks


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume our booking are closed as well, as the event is tomorrow. Normally closed a week before the comp.

Either way, it looks like it is a bit of a disaster. I'm surprised it hasn't been fixed if it is a bug, as it has been like this for at least 3-4 weeks
		
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Sent email to HDID and see what happens.


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## IanMcC (Jan 8, 2022)

This thread intrigues me. We changed over to CSI Teesheets on 1st January. Before that, tee sheet booking was on BRS, but our comps were on Club. (We also are now using Charging on ClubV1 for the first time.)
I have not noticed any problems that are described above. None of our comps have a draw, however, and all of our comps so far have entry enabled until 1800 on the day of the comp itself.
Probably telling granny to suck eggs here, but the start sheet for the comp appears as Reserved under the normal casual golf tee sheet. You have to go to Bookable Competitions or Booking/Competition Booking on ClubV1 members Hub to access comps.
There is a method to book into comps via HDID, bypassing the Members Hub, but I cant say if it is flawed or not. I am entered into all comps that are open at the moment, and I entered these via CV1 Members Hub.
Let me know if I can help analyse the fault here at all, but I dont really know what I'm looking for yet, as I only know the new system.


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## Old Skier (Jan 9, 2022)

We don't have members hub and 90% of our comps are drawn. Worked fine previously with HDID now it doesn't so something has changed since the new upgrade, for the worse from our perspective.


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2022)

Info from V1

Dear ClubV1 user,

The GB&I Golfing governing bodies will be introducing new regulations for the returning of General Play Scores for the purpose of “Safeguarding Handicap Integrity”.

These regulations stipulate a maximum distance that the player can be from the club when a round is pre-registered and a score is returned using a mobile device. They are also stipulating a minimum duration between pre-registration and score submission.

These distance/time limits are as follows for the different home unions;

England 2 Miles/3.2km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Ireland 1.86 Miles 3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Scotland 1 Mile/1.6Km – minimum 45 minutes for 9 holes, 1 hour 30 minutes for 18
Wales 1.86 Miles/3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18

Other National Federations/Unions have not informed us of any updates in their regulations.

In order for us to pinpoint your club's location, and manage the above from within our software automatically, please check/set your Longitude and Latitude in ClubV1 https://www.clubv1.com/Club/Details. This Longitude and Latitude setting should be set for a location where your club wishes for us to start this measurement, not necessarily from the clubhouse or first tee. To find your Longitude and Latitude, right-click on the desired position on Google maps. If a member does not have location (GPS) services enabled on his/her mobile device, or you have not got this setting correctly set in ClubV1, a score cannot be pre-registered or submitted.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 11, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Info from V1

Dear ClubV1 user,

The GB&I Golfing governing bodies will be introducing new regulations for the returning of General Play Scores for the purpose of “Safeguarding Handicap Integrity”.

These regulations stipulate a maximum distance that the player can be from the club when a round is pre-registered and a score is returned using a mobile device. They are also stipulating a minimum duration between pre-registration and score submission.

These distance/time limits are as follows for the different home unions;

England 2 Miles/3.2km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Ireland 1.86 Miles 3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Scotland 1 Mile/1.6Km – minimum 45 minutes for 9 holes, 1 hour 30 minutes for 18
Wales 1.86 Miles/3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18

Other National Federations/Unions have not informed us of any updates in their regulations.

In order for us to pinpoint your club's location, and manage the above from within our software automatically, please check/set your Longitude and Latitude in ClubV1 https://www.clubv1.com/Club/Details. This Longitude and Latitude setting should be set for a location where your club wishes for us to start this measurement, not necessarily from the clubhouse or first tee. To find your Longitude and Latitude, right-click on the desired position on Google maps. If a member does not have location (GPS) services enabled on his/her mobile device, or you have not got this setting correctly set in ClubV1, a score cannot be pre-registered or submitted.
		
Click to expand...

Scottish golfers must play more quickly than the rest of us in the UK. I guess it is because they are often keen to get out of the rubbish weather.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 21, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Info from V1

Dear ClubV1 user,

The GB&I Golfing governing bodies will be introducing new regulations for the returning of General Play Scores for the purpose of “Safeguarding Handicap Integrity”.

These regulations stipulate a maximum distance that the player can be from the club when a round is pre-registered and a score is returned using a mobile device. They are also stipulating a minimum duration between pre-registration and score submission.

These distance/time limits are as follows for the different home unions;

England 2 Miles/3.2km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Ireland 1.86 Miles 3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18
Scotland 1 Mile/1.6Km – minimum 45 minutes for 9 holes, 1 hour 30 minutes for 18
Wales 1.86 Miles/3Km – minimum 1 hour for 9 holes, 2 hours for 18

Other National Federations/Unions have not informed us of any updates in their regulations.

In order for us to pinpoint your club's location, and manage the above from within our software automatically, please check/set your Longitude and Latitude in ClubV1 https://www.clubv1.com/Club/Details. This Longitude and Latitude setting should be set for a location where your club wishes for us to start this measurement, not necessarily from the clubhouse or first tee. To find your Longitude and Latitude, right-click on the desired position on Google maps. If a member does not have location (GPS) services enabled on his/her mobile device, or you have not got this setting correctly set in ClubV1, a score cannot be pre-registered or submitted.
		
Click to expand...

This has now gone live (no notice after initial note above). It appears to work intermittently with some users OK and others getting the "not within 2 miles" message when sitting side by side. Any thoughts on necessary phone settings that may cause this?


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## wjemather (Jan 21, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			This has now gone live (no notice after initial note above). It appears to work intermittently with some users OK and others getting the "not within 2 miles" message when sitting side by side. Any thoughts on necessary phone settings that may cause this?
		
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I would guess that some people will not have allowed the app access to location, or have location switched off altogether.


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## Old Skier (Jan 21, 2022)

wjemather said:



			I would guess that some people will not have allowed the app access to location, or have location switched off altogether.
		
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This, or long & lat not set up/correctly on ISV.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 21, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			This, or long & lat not set up/correctly on ISV.
		
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I checked this earlier in the week - embarrassingly our Admin had entered them the wrong way round so goodness knows where HDID thought our course was!

Now correct.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 21, 2022)

wjemather said:



			I would guess that some people will not have allowed the app access to location, or have location switched off altogether.
		
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Pardon my ignorance but do you do this via the settings on the phone or via the app? I looked on the app but can't see a settings option.


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## Old Skier (Jan 21, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Pardon my ignorance but do you do this via the settings on the phone or via the app? I looked on the app but can't see a settings option.
		
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Phone settings


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## wjemather (Jan 21, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Pardon my ignorance but do you do this via the settings on the phone or via the app? I looked on the app but can't see a settings option.
		
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There will be location settings within their phone settings - sorry I can't advise exactly how to find them as not all phones are the same.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 21, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I checked this earlier in the week - embarrassingly our Admin had entered them the wrong way round so goodness knows where HDID thought our course was!

Now correct.
		
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Assuming your course is in Dorset, HDID would have thought your course was in the Indian Ocean, between Somalia and the Seychelles. Probably just outside the require range of 2 miles.


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## rulefan (Jan 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Assuming your course is in Dorset, HDID would have thought your course was in the Indian Ocean, between Somalia and the Seychelles. Probably just outside the require range of 2 miles.
		
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## IanMcC (Jan 26, 2022)

More issues with ClubV1 for me. There must have been some sort of upgrade recently which has affected my access. (I cannot see the Release notes of the updates as I am not a full admin user.) I used to be able to access and build Courses, but now I cannot. I will need this soon to build our new 9 hole front and back courses once the new Slope and Course Ratings come back from Wales Golf. (We are reconfiguring our course.) Does anyone know what our admin secretary has to change to give a poor M&H Secretary access to Courses again?


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			More issues with ClubV1 for me. There must have been some sort of upgrade recently which has affected my access. (I cannot see the Release notes of the updates as I am not a full admin user.) I used to be able to access and build Courses, but now I cannot. I will need this soon to build our new 9 hole front and back courses once the new Slope and Course Ratings come back from Wales Golf. (We are reconfiguring our course.) Does anyone know what our admin secretary has to change to give a poor M&H Secretary access to Courses again?
		
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Club>settings>User and permissions 

should be something in there.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 16, 2022)

Howdidido looks a lot different now after recent changes. Some of the changes look positive.

However, I've noticed that, when there is an upcoming competition, I can go on the draw in the Booking section, and see my tee time. However, I cannot see anyone else in the field. It seems that I can see who has booked into a competition, for comps that are further into the future. But, I think once the draw has been finalised, then you can no longer see the draw at all.

Anyone else notice this?


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## Old Skier (Feb 16, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Howdidido looks a lot different now after recent changes. Some of the changes look positive.

However, I've noticed that, when there is an upcoming competition, I can go on the draw in the Booking section, and see my tee time. However, I cannot see anyone else in the field. It seems that I can see who has booked into a competition, for comps that are further into the future. But, I think once the draw has been finalised, then you can no longer see the draw at all.

Anyone else notice this?
		
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Yep and notified HDID, was supposed to have been sorted but as you point out, it hasn’t.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 17, 2022)

I must say, this new howdidido is truly shocking.

We've a pairs event available for booking, shotgun start. Once you try and book, it doesnt let you enter a partner. If you hit Withdraw, it just goes into error screen. Everyone in our whatsapp group getting same error.


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## Old Skier (Feb 17, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I must say, this new howdidido is truly shocking.

We've a pairs event available for booking, shotgun start. Once you try and book, it doesnt let you enter a partner. If you hit Withdraw, it just goes into error screen. Everyone in our whatsapp group getting same error.
		
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Would help if whoever runs your V1 system puts in a complaint as the more who do it might force the issue.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 17, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Would help if whoever runs your V1 system puts in a complaint as the more who do it might force the issue.
		
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Well, the club will be getting a lot of requests from members tomorrow, hopefully that encourages them to complain


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## IanMcC (Mar 21, 2022)

We have a new member who's last club was in Scotland. We are in Wales. He wishes to transfer his SGU history to his Wales Golf CDH. I have heard this is difficult, and I cant see a way of doing it on the Wales Golf Clubhouse site.
Is there a method, or do I have to get Cardiff involved?


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## wjemather (Mar 21, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			We have a new member who's last club was in Scotland. We are in Wales. He wishes to transfer his SGU history to his Wales Golf CDH. I have heard this is difficult, and I cant see a way of doing it on the Wales Golf Clubhouse site.
Is there a method, or do I have to get Cardiff involved?
		
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I don't know how far CONGU have got to with getting the various home unions systems talking to each other to facilitate this kind of thing. If all else fails, your new member should be able to get their full handicap record from Scottish Golf for manual input on the Welsh system!


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## IanMcC (Mar 21, 2022)

wjemather said:



			I don't know how far CONGU have got to with getting the various home unions systems talking to each other to facilitate this kind of thing. If all else fails, your new member should be able to get their full handicap record from Scottish Golf for manual input on the Welsh system!
		
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Thanks for this. I was hoping it was a last resort. I have dropped a line to Wales Golf. If nothing back in a couple of days, I will ask the member for his last 20 rounds and I will manually upload them.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			Thanks for this. I was hoping it was a last resort. I have dropped a line to Wales Golf. If nothing back in a couple of days, I will ask the member for his last 20 rounds and I will manually upload them.
		
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Can’t you just give him his HC Index and if necessary allocate him a new/different CDH No.


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## IanMcC (Mar 21, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Can’t you just give him his HC Index and if necessary allocate him a new/different CDH No.
		
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I could do, but without a handicap history, until he registers 20 scores, his index would be artificially generated. (As in, not best 8 from 20.) Anyway, nobody wants to lose their history, surely.


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## IanMcC (Mar 21, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Can’t you just give him his HC Index and if necessary allocate him a new/different CDH No.
		
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He needs a new cdh anyway. Scottish ones start with a 4. Welsh ones start with a 6.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			I could do, but without a handicap history, until he registers 20 scores, his index would be artificially generated. (As in, not best 8 from 20.) Anyway, nobody wants to lose their history, surely.
		
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But his index would have been based on his best 8 anyway so not sure why you would want to make work for yourself.


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## IanMcC (Mar 21, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			But his index would have been based on his best 8 anyway so not sure why you would want to make work for yourself.
		
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Adding 20 rounds is not a lot of work. It's not about workload, it's about making it as right as it can be for my members. His index of 9.1 is currently based on his best 8 from Scotland. If I just allocate him 9.1 then he is liable to the higher adjustments that a player with no history incurs. Would you want that if you moved country?


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			Adding 20 rounds is not a lot of work. It's not about workload, it's about making it as right as it can be for my members. His index of 9.1 is currently based on his best 8 from Scotland. If I just allocate him 9.1 then he is liable to the higher adjustments that a player with no history incurs. Would you want that if you moved country?
		
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Now I understand where your coming from, my mistake.


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## wjemather (Mar 21, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Can’t you just give him his HC Index and if necessary allocate him a new/different CDH No.
		
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Old Skier said:



			But his index would have been based on his best 8 anyway so not sure why you would want to make work for yourself.
		
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CONGU guidance advises creating the record using the most recent 20.

If you don't recreate the history this way, the index will become the best one of 3 new scores (minus 2) very quickly, then best one of 4 (minus 1), etc.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2022)

wjemather said:



			CONGU guidance advises creating the record using the most recent 20.

If you don't recreate the history this way, the index will become the best one of 3 new scores (minus 2) very quickly, then best one of 4 (minus 1), etc.
		
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Realized the error of my ways.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 22, 2022)

There is new guy at our Club, plays in our group and has a handicap of around 9. He wants a low handicap .  I was told last year he said he was submitting a supplementary score, he has about 5 scores submitted. When the round was not going to plan he changed his mind and binned the card. He has played before no idea of the details but was in Dubai.

Vanity I know but any thoughts would be appreciated apart from telling him it is wrong. Is there a specific rule please?


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## IanMcC (Mar 22, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			There is new guy at our Club, plays in our group and has a handicap of around 9. He wants a low handicap .  I was told last year he said he was submitting a supplementary score, he has about 5 scores submitted. When the round was not going to plan he changed his mind and binned the card. He has played before no idea of the details but was in Dubai.

Vanity I know but any thoughts would be appreciated apart from telling him it is wrong. Is there a specific rule please?
		
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If he pre registers and does not submit a score then he should be awarded a penalty score of Course Rating + Course  Handicap.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 22, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			If he pre registers and does not submit a score then he should be awarded a penalty score of Course Rating + Course  Handicap.
		
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Thanks for the swift reply. However The Course rating is 71.1 plus his Course handicap of say 9 which is not a penalty


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## wjemather (Mar 22, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Thanks for the swift reply. However The Course rating is 71.1 plus his Course handicap of say 9 which is not a penalty
		
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Since he was clearly attempting to keep his handicap low, the penalty score should be equal to the highest differential on his record (per CONGU's guidance G7.1b).


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## IanMcC (Mar 22, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Thanks for the swift reply. However The Course rating is 71.1 plus his Course handicap of say 9 which is not a penalty
		
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It depends on how you define penalty. That is the correct method to apply a Penalty Score under WHS. If the M&H committee feel he is trying to manipulate his score downwards, then the other option is to take the route described above. I would advise intervening verbally with the golfer before going down this route, however. It is almost certain to create I'll feeling.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 22, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			It depends on how you define penalty. That is the correct method to apply a Penalty Score under WHS. If the M&H committee feel he is trying to manipulate his score downwards, then the other option is to take the route described above. I would advise intervening verbally with the golfer before going down this route, however. It is almost certain to create I'll feeling.
		
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Appreciate both your comments and advice/guidance. People in our Group are aware of what he has done/is doing and initially having a word would seem a practical way forward.

I have not seen him rip up the cards but I have been told by a couple of people and will see what happens.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 23, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Appreciate both your comments and advice/guidance. People in our Group are aware of what he has done/is doing and initially having a word would seem a practical way forward.

I have not seen him rip up the cards but I have been told by a couple of people and will see what happens.
		
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I assume he pre registers before the round? If so, the Committee will surely notice, sooner or later, several unreturned scores from this player, and will start asking questions. The system now automatically applies penalty scores equal to CR plus Course Handicap (I believe this software was changed to to this at the back end of last season), but they could then change these to high penalty scores once they find out why he is ripping up his scores. 

Furthermore, he is like to get a warning, and beyond that disciplinary procedures may be implemented, such as handicap suspension, competition ban, etc.

So, I am not sure how easy it is for a player to fiddle things without Committee becoming aware. For example, failing to pre register, shooting a specific desirable score, registering after the round and entering score sometime after that.


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## IanMcC (Mar 23, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			Adding 20 rounds is not a lot of work. It's not about workload, it's about making it as right as it can be for my members. His index of 9.1 is currently based on his best 8 from Scotland. If I just allocate him 9.1 then he is liable to the higher adjustments that a player with no history incurs. Would you want that if you moved country?
		
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Update. The guy sent through screenshots of his last 20 rounds, and I have added them to his Wales Golf CDH, with the resulting Handicap Index matching his Scottish Golf figure. Happy Days.


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## Banchory Buddha (Mar 23, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Appreciate both your comments and advice/guidance. People in our Group are aware of what he has done/is doing and initially having a word would seem a practical way forward.

I have not seen him rip up the cards but I have been told by a couple of people and will see what happens.
		
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Why is he not registering on the App? it would apply the penalty score automatically.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume he pre registers before the round? If so, the Committee will surely notice, sooner or later, several unreturned scores from this player, and will start asking questions. The system now automatically applies penalty scores equal to CR plus Course Handicap (I believe this software was changed to to this at the back end of last season), but they could then change these to high penalty scores once they find out why he is ripping up his scores.

Furthermore, he is like to get a warning, and beyond that disciplinary procedures may be implemented, such as handicap suspension, competition ban, etc.

So, I am not sure how easy it is for a player to fiddle things without Committee becoming aware. For example, failing to pre register, shooting a specific desirable score, registering after the round and entering score sometime after that.
		
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It appears that the HC arnt doing what they are supposed to or haven't got any systems in place to check on those that are registering at the club manually.  Replying on people using technology will mean people will slip through the net.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Why is he not registering on the App? it would apply the penalty score automatically.
		
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Not everyone has or uses the app, at the club we have a general play book which you sign into if your not on the technology and regular checks are made between the book and cards returned against the system.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 23, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Why is he not registering on the App? it would apply the penalty score automatically.
		
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This is also for Swango and appreciate both comments. I was only advised last week. He does not register prior to going out, picks up a card, states “ I am going to submit a Supplementary score” and then changes his mind!

I will have a word initially and explain the possible/ probable penalty as advised by WJEM if it happens again.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			This is also for Swango and appreciate both comments. I was only advised last week. He does not register prior to going out, picks up a card, states “ I am going to submit a Supplementary score” and then changes his mind!

I will have a word initially and explain the possible/ probable penalty as advised by WJEM if it happens again.
		
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He's also breaking the rules around Gen Play cards as he MUST pre register before play.


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## Banchory Buddha (Mar 23, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			This is also for Swango and appreciate both comments. I was only advised last week. He does not register prior to going out, picks up a card, states “ I am going to submit a Supplementary score” and then changes his mind!

I will have a word initially and explain the possible/ probable penalty as advised by WJEM if it happens again.
		
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Yeah as Skier says, he might as well rip his card up on the first tee, if you H'cap sec is doing his job, he won't accept the card.  If he doesn't have a smart phone to pre-register automatically, then he has to follow what the club's process is for submitting general play cards, it 100% won't be just hand in a card without any sort of pre-round notification


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## rulefan (Mar 23, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			He's also breaking the rules around Gen Play cards as he MUST pre register before play.
		
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*2.1a(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play. *
_A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made: 
Before the player starts the round, and 
According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap Committee and/or the Authorized Association._


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2022)

Just seems that the club isn’t up to speed on the subject (appreciate if it’s run by volunteers it’s difficult) and hasn’t informed the members.


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## rulefan (Mar 23, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Just seems that the club isn’t up to speed on the subject (appreciate if it’s run by volunteers it’s difficult) and hasn’t informed the members.
		
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I find that volunteers aren't really the problem. It's conscripts!


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## Banchory Buddha (Mar 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Just seems that the club isn’t up to speed on the subject *(appreciate if it’s run by volunteers it’s difficult)* and hasn’t informed the members.
		
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It's not. This is one of the easiest of things to do.


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 23, 2022)

A question for Club V1 / HDID users.

We are having problems when entering GP rounds via the PSI terminals in our clubhouse. The problem occurs when entering a score incorrectly and then trying to edit it. If the player does this the score is corrupted and will not be sent to the WHS system and just sits there in error. If you try to edit it from admin you see 27 or 36 holes rather than 18 and can't delete any of them to make it acceptable to WHS. The only option is to delete the round and re-enter from admin which is a pain.

This doesn't occur for competitions, only GP. I have reported this several times to Club Systems but their second line support say they can't find a fault even thought I have left errant entries on the system.

Has anyone else seen this?


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## wjemather (Apr 23, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			A question for Club V1 / HDID users.

We are having problems when entering GP rounds via the PSI terminals in our clubhouse. The problem occurs when entering a score incorrectly and then trying to edit it. If the player does this the score is corrupted and will not be sent to the WHS system and just sits there in error. If you try to edit it from admin you see 27 or 36 holes rather than 18 and can't delete any of them to make it acceptable to WHS. The only option is to delete the round and re-enter from admin which is a pain.

This doesn't occur for competitions, only GP. I have reported this several times to Club Systems but their second line support say they can't find a fault even thought I have left errant entries on the system.

Has anyone else seen this?
		
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Ah, thanks for this! I wondered what was actually happening, but hadn't had chance to investigate. I have reported score corruption such as this half a dozen times (at least) over the past year and have been fobbed off with it probably being caused by "connection issues" at our end. Good to know our new fibre broadband isn't going to fix it after all!!


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 23, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Ah, thanks for this! I wondered what was actually happening, but hadn't had chance to investigate. I have reported score corruption such as this half a dozen times (at least) over the past year and have been fobbed off with it probably being caused by "connection issues" at our end. Good to know our new fibre broadband isn't going to fix it after all!!
		
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What's surprising to me is that this is a hard error - ie it happens every time and they have evidence so I don't know why they keep denying it's happening.


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## wjemather (Apr 23, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			What's surprising to me is that this is a hard error - ie it happens every time and they have evidence so I don't know why they keep denying it's happening.
		
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I'll look at recreating the error when I'm next up the club this week and report it again.


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## Griffsters (Apr 24, 2022)

This season we have turned off ClubV1/HdiDo for GP rounds and require members to solely use MyEG app. More mature, less glitchy and only one set of instructions to members.

ClubV1 always playing catch up with MyEG it seemed last year *shrugs*

Edit: Plus, all the reporting and monitoring tools are in one place so easier to manage.


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## NearHull (Apr 24, 2022)

Griffsters said:



			This season we have turned off ClubV1/HdiDo for GP rounds and require members to solely use MyEG app. More mature, less glitchy and only one set of instructions to members.

ClubV1 always playing catch up with MyEG it seemed last year *shrugs*

Edit: Plus, all the reporting and monitoring tools are in one place so easier to manage.
		
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We have done the same.


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## wjemather (Apr 24, 2022)

Griffsters said:



			This season we have turned off ClubV1/HdiDo for GP rounds and require members to solely use MyEG app.
		
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NearHull said:



			We have done the same.
		
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Is this not is rather exclusionary?
Most of our members prefer to use a physical scorecard and enter scores via the touchscreen rather than either of the mobile scoring apps.


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## rulefan (Apr 24, 2022)

Our PSIs were faulty and we haven't bothered to get them fixed. Since Covid all our players have been using the HDID app and are very happy with it (no complaints so far). The only snag had been '0 or blank' which has now been sorted.


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## Griffsters (Apr 24, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Is this not is rather exclusionary?
Most of our members prefer to use a physical scorecard and enter scores via the touchscreen rather than either of the mobile scoring apps.
		
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I don't think so, although I see where you are coming from. Using apps is part and parcel of being a club member these days, we still use paper scorecards for comps with PSI entry as well as mobile app score entry.

My EG App is straightforward enough and we believe that if someone is of a mind to do general play rounds then they will learn to adapt to the process needed to do so.

Its good to get members engaged in WHS and how their HI is determined as well, new members are advised to download the apps we use (BRS, HDiDo & My EG) and encouraged to put in casual rounds to get to a mature Handicap Index. All the tools to monitor general play rounds are on the WHS platform - I think having to collect and check physical scorecards for GPs is just another task for H&C committees that isn't required any more.


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## wjemather (Apr 24, 2022)

Griffsters said:



			I don't think so, although I see where you are coming from. Using apps is part and parcel of being a club member these days, we still use paper scorecards for comps with PSI entry as well as mobile app score entry.

*My EG App is straightforward enough and we believe that if someone is of a mind to do general play rounds then they will learn to adapt to the process needed to do so.*

Its good to get members engaged in WHS and how their HI is determined as well, new members are advised to download the apps we use (BRS, HDiDo & My EG) and encouraged to put in casual rounds to get to a mature Handicap Index. All the tools to monitor general play rounds are on the WHS platform - I think having to collect and check physical scorecards for GPs is just another task for H&C committees that isn't required any more.
		
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No good for those without the necessary technology. Allowing PSI entry and physical scorecard simply makes GP score submission more accessible and available to everyone; it does not mean every card must be checked.


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## Griffsters (Apr 24, 2022)

wjemather said:



*No good for those without the necessary technology*. Allowing PSI entry and physical scorecard simply makes GP score submission more accessible and available to everyone; it does not mean every card must be checked.
		
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I can't think of any member that does not have a mobile phone, even amongst our seniors. I am sure there must be somewhere or have one but don't like it,  if there was a training issue we would assist of course.


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## wjemather (Apr 24, 2022)

Griffsters said:



			I can't think of any member that does not have a mobile phone, even amongst our seniors. I am sure there must be somewhere or have one but don't like it,  if there was a training issue we would assist of course.
		
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Not all mobile phones are smartphones, and not all smartphones are able to run the apps.


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## Griffsters (Apr 24, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Not all mobile phones are smartphones, and not all smartphones are able to run the apps.
		
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Obviously.

Its easy to come up with unlikely scenarios, I can do the same for pretty much everything including accessing PSI screens for score input *shrugs* But that would just perpetuate this unnecessary conversation.


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## Rocco (Apr 24, 2022)

Griffsters said:



			I don't think so, although I see where you are coming from. Using apps is part and parcel of being a club member these days, we still use paper scorecards for comps with PSI entry as well as mobile app score entry.

My EG App is straightforward enough and we believe that if someone is of a mind to do general play rounds then they will learn to adapt to the process needed to do so.

Its good to get members engaged in WHS and how their HI is determined as well, new members are advised to download the apps we use (BRS, HDiDo & My EG) and encouraged to put in casual rounds to get to a mature Handicap Index. All the tools to monitor general play rounds are on the WHS platform - I think having to collect and check physical scorecards for GPs is just another task for H&C committees that isn't required any more.
		
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Getting used to Psi input was difficult enough for some in the first place then the idea of submitting  general play cards  on a regular basis was also met with resistance, then to discover that the format was now strokeplay (with variations) seems to see a reduction in interest.

I am a Senior golfer and competent in the use of App’s but I am afraid that a good number of Seniors will never reach that stage and will probably pack up golf with wonky knees and hips before they ever master a mobile phone for inputting... Issues with Psi faults aside I feel that moves to App use only is yet another change whereby some Seniors will just say “that’s enough for me” as regards submitting cards.

Percentage wise I suspect most Clubs are the same as regards Members being competent with smart phone apps and whilst admiring the ones who are able to do so my concern is the ones who are simply left behind because of changes which they are unable to deal with.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2022)

Rocco said:



			Getting used to Psi input was difficult enough for some in the first place then the idea of submitting  general play cards  on a regular basis was also met with resistance, then to discover that the format was now strokeplay (with variations) seems to see a reduction in interest.

I am a Senior golfer and competent in the use of App’s but I am afraid that a good number of Seniors will never reach that stage and will probably pack up golf with wonky knees and hips before they ever master a mobile phone for inputting... Issues with Psi faults aside I feel that moves to App use only is yet another change whereby some Seniors will just say “that’s enough for me” as regards submitting cards.

Percentage wise I suspect most Clubs are the same as regards Members being competent with smart phone apps and whilst admiring the ones who are able to do so my concern is the ones who are simply left behind because of changes which they are unable to deal with.
		
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One of the areas that EG were poor to respond to, and still are in my opinion. There are still many club members who aren’t computer literate and members without the necessary smart phones.

Our Wi-Fi is so poor at times that even when scores appear to have been entered they signal drops out and has resulted in penalties being dished out.

EG has certainly made life more difficult for clubs with volunteer HC members.


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## NearHull (Apr 25, 2022)

NearHull said:



			We have done the same.
		
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I may have misunderstood a little.  We have turned off HDID for Casual Round Acceptable Scores submissions as we believe the marker integrity is not  up to the same standard as EG App.   Has the HDID App been updated to fix this?


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## wjemather (Apr 25, 2022)

NearHull said:



			I may have misunderstood a little.  We have turned off HDID for Casual Round Acceptable Scores submissions as we believe the marker integrity is not  up to the same standard as EG App.   Has the HDID App been updated to fix this?
		
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HDID has been updated - "enhanced markers scoring" setting in ClubV1.


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## NearHull (Apr 25, 2022)

wjemather said:



			HDID has been updated - "enhanced markers scoring" setting in ClubV1.
		
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Thank you, I’ll have to check with our Professional who runs the ClubV1 to see where we are with it.


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 26, 2022)

Griffsters said:



			I can't think of any member that does not have a mobile phone, even amongst our seniors. I am sure there must be somewhere or have one but don't like it,  if there was a training issue we would assist of course.
		
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When we were setting up WHS I was amazed at how many members didn't have a mobile and over 20 didn't have an email address.


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 26, 2022)

wjemather said:



			HDID has been updated - "enhanced markers scoring" setting in ClubV1.
		
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We have never got this to work correctly and have turned it back off.


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## tobybarker (Apr 26, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			When we were setting up WHS I was amazed at how many members didn't have a mobile and over 20 didn't have an email address.
		
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We have several seniors who refuse to even try.


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## IanMcC (May 18, 2022)

Anyone noticed anything like this before? This was a Seniors Comp run at our club on Monday. The Competition Prints on CV1 are correct, but the result posted on HDID and CV1 Members Hub have the top 5 inverted! Not a big deal, but strange. I cloned the Seniors M&H comp, and could see nothing amiss. Only thing I could see different from my comps was that he set a 1500 start for the Leaderboard to be visible.


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## NearHull (May 19, 2022)

We had a medal round last week.  Clubv1 seems to be handling a 0 score somewhat differently to last year. 

One player started, but did not complete two holes.  He then scored for the rest of the round.  He entered his two 0 correctly.  When the comp was closed off, ClubV1 had added 5 shots to the par of the hole for each of the 0 scores.  It then gave him a counting score and did not DQ or NR him in the results.  He entered his scores using the HDID App.

When we checked a few NR scores, the software added 5 shots to every par for each 0 entered.  This resulted in some scores of 162 (par of 72 + (5*18)) the player did not even bother to return any score.  But these were returned by the software as NR.  They were entered using the psi terminals.

(We will be sanctioning the NRs that either didn’t know about returning cards or couldn’t be bothered ).

On checking EG Db , all 0 scores were handled correctly by inserting * for all players - except for the player who used the HDID App - his score transferred as par + 5 for each of the two not completed holes.

We’ve rechecked the comp set up but can’t find anything untoward.  We only discovered this issue by chance.

Any thoughts please?


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## wjemather (May 19, 2022)

NearHull said:



			We had a medal round last week.  Clubv1 seems to be handling a 0 score somewhat differently to last year. 

One player started, but did not complete two holes.  He then scored for the rest of the round.  He entered his two 0 correctly.  When the comp was closed off, ClubV1 had added 5 shots to the par of the hole for each of the 0 scores.  It then gave him a counting score and did not DQ or NR him in the results.  He entered his scores using the HDID App.

When we checked a few NR scores, the software added 5 shots to every par for each 0 entered.  This resulted in some scores of 162 (par of 72 + (5*18)) the player did not even bother to return any score.  But these were returned as NR.  They were entered using the psi terminals.

(We will be sanctioning the NRs that either didn’t know about returning cards or couldn’t be bothered ).

On checking EG Db , all 0 scores were handled correctly by inserting * for all players - except for the player who used the HDID App - his score transferred as par + 5 for each of the two not completed holes.

We’ve rechecked the comp set up but can’t find anything untoward.  We only discovered this issue by chance.

Any thoughts please?
		
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On the "Handicaps" tab of the comp setup, you should find "Maximum shots above Par allowed per hole..." set to 5.

Sounds like some players may have incorrectly entered "hole not played" rather than "hole not completed" after inputting a "0", so are getting nett pars instead of nett double bogeys for handicapping.


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## NearHull (May 19, 2022)

wjemather said:



			On the "Handicaps" tab of the comp setup, you should find "Maximum shots above Par allowed per hole..." set to 5.

Sounds like some players may have incorrectly entered "hole not played" rather than "hole not completed" after inputting a "0", so are getting nett pars instead of nett double bogeys for handicapping.
		
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on the "Maximum shots above Par allowed……. What should it be set to?


we think the player using the HDID App to enter his score may well have misread the prompt on his small screen.  We will be checking.


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## wjemather (May 19, 2022)

NearHull said:



			on the "Maximum shots above Par allowed……. What should it be set to?
		
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It needs to be blank for standard stroke play (medal).


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## rulefan (May 19, 2022)

wjemather said:



			On the "Handicaps" tab of the comp setup, you should find "Maximum shots above Par allowed per hole..." set to 5.

Sounds like some players may have incorrectly entered "hole not played" rather than "hole not completed" after inputting a "0", so are getting nett pars instead of nett double bogeys for handicapping.
		
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How does that sit with the table in 3.2?


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## wjemather (May 19, 2022)

rulefan said:



			How does that sit with the table in 3.2?
		
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My assumption is that the holes in question were played, so 3.2 is not applicable.

With ClubV1, the PSI prompts the player to confirm whether the hole was played or not after entering a zero - it's all too easy and instinctive to mistakenly select not played - I've even done it myself (!!) but knowing what I do, I corrected it before submitting; many (perhaps most) won't.

One of our members entered 3 such hole scores on the weekend, and had a couple of others earlier in his record - his index increased by about 1.5 once I'd corrected them.


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## tobybarker (May 20, 2022)

please clarify the difference between did not complete and did not play, as far as the player's scoring record is concerned.....I have noticed that some guys, once they have NRed often just stop recording their scores after that and so just put a stream of zeroes into the computer after that hole. I need to be able to explain the correct procedure, and why. As you can tell I'm new to this, so be gentle


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## wjemather (May 20, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			please clarify the difference between did not complete and did not play, as far as the player's scoring record is concerned.....I have noticed that some guys, once they have NRed often just stop recording their scores after that and so just put a stream of zeroes into the computer after that hole. I need to be able to explain the correct procedure, and why. As you can tell I'm new to this, so be gentle
		
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Did not complete = nett double bogey
Did not start = nett par (with nett par +1 for the first such hole if 10-13 holes played)

An NR only applies to that hole; for handicapping players are required to complete the round as normal and record scores for all remaining holes (since they would already be DQ in regular stroke play, they can subsequently continue as if Stableford scoring with regards to holing out).

Since WHS is an average-best handicap system, completing such rounds is important because they could still count in the best 8 at any point during the next 19 rounds. If not completing happens frequently and goes unchecked, it's inevitable that a bogus high score will end up counting in the best 8. Either way the players index could be (much) higher than it ought to be.

It's unlikely (more likely if there are lots of them), but such scores could also affect the daily PCC calculation, which in turn affects everyone else who played that day.

Committees need to educate players in the first instance, remove any scores that have been made unacceptable for handicapping, and apply appropriate sanctions for players who persistently fail to meet their responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.


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## tobybarker (May 20, 2022)

Thank you!


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## NearHull (May 20, 2022)

wjemather said:



			It needs to be blank for standard stroke play (medal).
		
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You were absolutely correct.  The comp had been set incorrectly as a Maximum Score Medal.  Strangely resetting and rerunning the result is taking some effort.

Thank you for your help, it’s what this forum is about for me!


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## jim8flog (May 26, 2022)

Sorry if this has been mentioned  before but I am not in the mood for trawling.

We held a singles competition on Monday.  The organiser has only just recently taken over setting up comps. He set the comp up, incorrectly, as a non-qualifier.

Can this be changed in retrospect and scores uploaded to the WHS?

If yes how?

PS I do not do the admin myself but need to explain the 'how to' to the person who does.

PS please use the reply so I know it has been answered.


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## IanMcC (May 26, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			Sorry if this has been mentioned  before but I am not in the mood for trawling.

We held a singles competition on Monday.  The organiser has only just recently taken over setting up comps. He set the comp up, incorrectly, as a non-qualifier.

Can this be changed in retrospect and scores uploaded to the WHS?

If yes how?

PS I do not do the admin myself but need to explain the 'how to' to the person who does.

PS please use the reply so I know it has been answered.
		
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I believe the scores will have to be manually entered on to the WHS platform.


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## wjemather (May 26, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			Sorry if this has been mentioned  before but I am not in the mood for trawling.

We held a singles competition on Monday.  The organiser has only just recently taken over setting up comps. He set the comp up, incorrectly, as a non-qualifier.

Can this be changed in retrospect and scores uploaded to the WHS?

If yes how?

PS I do not do the admin myself but need to explain the 'how to' to the person who does.

PS please use the reply so I know it has been answered.
		
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What system are you using? If ClubV1, the answer is no according to the release notes (I've not verified this). I would expect other ISVs to be the same, so all the scores will need to be re-entered for WHS.

However, it may be quicker to recreate the comp correctly and re-enter the scores that way, rather than directly into WHS.


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## jim8flog (May 27, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			I believe the scores will have to be manually entered on to the WHS platform.
		
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wjemather said:



			What system are you using? If ClubV1, the answer is no according to the release notes (I've not verified this). I would expect other ISVs to be the same, so all the scores will need to be re-entered for WHS.

However, it may be quicker to recreate the comp correctly and re-enter the scores that way, rather than directly into WHS.
		
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Thanks . Information passed on.

We use IG


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## Swango1980 (May 31, 2022)

Anyone having any issues with howdidido tonight, or Club V1. Club V1 doesn't seem to work, and in howdidido all bookings disappeared, handicap history vanished, almost like I am no longer linked to it. Mate having same problem


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## rulefan (May 31, 2022)

No issues here


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## Swango1980 (May 31, 2022)

rulefan said:



			No issues here
		
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Ahh, seems to be working again. Maybe a temporary glitch


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## tobybarker (Jun 2, 2022)

We have a member here in Wales who lives in the USA and is as member of a course there too. His HCP there is 5 but here, where he had only 5 or so cards listed, it's 8 point something. How do we set him up so his "correct" HCP is used here ie the 5.? He played here today but howdidido listed him as an 8 handicap player.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			We have a member here in Wales who lives in the USA and is as member of a course there too. His HCP there is 5 but here, where he had only 5 or so cards listed, it's 8 point something. How do we set him up so his "correct" HCP is used here ie the 5.? He played here today but howdidido listed him as an 8 handicap player.
		
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HDID wouldn’t pick up his US handicap as HDID only talks to the clubs software and not the WHS DB. My thoughts would be to adjust his WHS DB to what is assumed as correct and manually adjust his HC on your ISV


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## tobybarker (Jun 2, 2022)

As the committee had not done this before he played, he happily used his local index instead. Was it down to him to self-declare the issue?


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## rulefan (Jun 2, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			We have a member here in Wales who lives in the USA and is as member of a course there too. His HCP there is 5 but here, where he had only 5 or so cards listed, it's 8 point something. How do we set him up so his "correct" HCP is used here ie the 5.? He played here today but howdidido listed him as an 8 handicap player.
		
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Try whs.support@englandgolf.org 
They will have encountered similar problems


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## tobybarker (Jun 2, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Try whs.support@englandgolf.org
They will have encountered similar problems
		
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This is Wales... I'll message the Welsh equivalent


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## wjemather (Jun 2, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			We have a member here in Wales who lives in the USA and is as member of a course there too. His HCP there is 5 but here, where he had only 5 or so cards listed, it's 8 point something. How do we set him up so his "correct" HCP is used here ie the 5.? He played here today but howdidido listed him as an 8 handicap player.
		
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The process is in CONGU's guidance (G1.4b/3). The player should provide you with their handicap record from the US, from which you can enter all 20 most recent scores to recreate his correct handicap. When he goes back to the US, he should do the same so his handicap gets updated there.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Anyone having any issues with howdidido tonight, or Club V1. Club V1 doesn't seem to work, and in howdidido all bookings disappeared, handicap history vanished, almost like I am no longer linked to it. Mate having same problem
		
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They were doing upgrades this week, we all know what happens when someone upgrades their software


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## rulefan (Jun 2, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			This is Wales... I'll message the Welsh equivalent
		
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oops


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## NearHull (Jun 3, 2022)

wjemather said:



			The process is in CONGU's guidance (G1.4b/3). The player should provide you with their handicap record from the US, from which you can enter all 20 most recent scores to recreate his correct handicap. When he goes back to the US, he should do the same so his handicap gets updated there.
		
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I have done similar with one of our members who also holds a Portuguese handicap.  He physically provides copies of his scoring records each time he moves between countries and we update his records.  It’s a bit agricultural but as we know the systems cannot (yet????) communicate seamlessly.


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## tobybarker (Jun 3, 2022)

NearHull said:



			I have done similar with one of our members who also holds a Portuguese handicap.  He physically provides copies of his scoring records each time he moves between countries and we update his records.  It’s a bit agricultural but as we know the systems cannot (yet????) communicate seamlessly.
		
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Thanks. Remind me what the W stands for in whs.....


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## rulefan (Jun 3, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			Thanks. Remind me what the W stands for in whs.....
		
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It simply means that the Rules of Handicapping are fundamentally the same round the world. 
The utilization of computers is not even mentioned in Rule 1.1 Purpose of the World Handicap System. In fact the whole process could be done by hand except for the PCC.


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## wjemather (Jun 3, 2022)

tobybarker said:



			Thanks. Remind me what the W stands for in whs.....
		
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It means that there is a single method for the calculating handicaps around the world, that is based on the same course and slope rating system. It means players can compare and compete equitably against any other players whose handicaps are produced using that system. It means that handicaps can be easily transferred to anywhere else in the world (that also uses that system), even if the transfer is manual process at present. Etc.

It doesn't mean there is a single global database, or ever will be. It doesn't mean that any individual databases are connected to each other in any way, or ever will be.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 3, 2022)

rulefan said:



			It simply means that the Rules of Handicapping are fundamentally the same round the world.
The utilization of computers is not even mentioned in Rule 1.1 Purpose of the World Handicap System. In fact the whole process could be done by hand except for the PCC.
		
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Except it's 2022, and when coming up with this concept it surely shouldn't have been outwith the scope of the changes to actually do what could easily be done in this day and age?


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## rulefan (Jun 3, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Except it's 2022, and when coming up with this concept it surely shouldn't have been outwith the scope of the changes to actually do what could easily be done in this day and age?
		
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And who do you think would pay for these relatively few tourists to have this facility?


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## wjemather (Jun 3, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Except it's 2022, and when coming up with this concept it surely shouldn't have been outwith the scope of the changes to actually do what could easily be done in this day and age?
		
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How would you suggest the authorities should have managed the dozens of different legal jurisdictions with very different data protection laws without delaying implementation by years, if not decades?


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 3, 2022)

rulefan said:



			And who do you think would pay for these relatively few tourists to have this facility?
		
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You have one "W"orld system, so it would have actually saved a ton of money over every country doing their own thing.


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## rulefan (Jun 3, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You have one "W"orld system, so it would have actually saved a ton of money over every country doing their own thing.
		
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But who would decide which country the software supplier and hardware host supplier would be in? Would the USGA agree to China? Would the Argentina agree to the UK?

But why do you presume the system relates to computers? It is simply an organized procedure. No more no less.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 3, 2022)

rulefan said:



			But why do you presume the system relates to computers? It is simply an organized procedure. No more no less.
		
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We're talking about the systems not talking to each other, what did you think the non-posting of foreign scores meant? We already have to do this manually, we're discussing not doing it manually, but having software that talks to each other, the best way to have done that is have one official provider of the WHS handicapping application.





rulefan said:



			But who would decide which country the software supplier and hardware host supplier would be in? Would the USGA agree to China? Would the Argentina agree to the UK?
		
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There are two governing bodies for the sport which all countries align with now, in Scotland & the USA, they are the ones who implemented WHS, it would surely make sense for them to tender the job, and facilitate the roll-out would it not?


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## rulefan (Jun 3, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			We're talking about the systems not talking to each other, what did you think the non-posting of foreign scores meant? We already have to do this manually, we're discussing not doing it manually, but having software that talks to each other, the best way to have done that is have one official provider of the WHS handicapping application.

There are two governing bodies for the sport which all countries align with now, in Scotland & the USA, they are the ones who implemented WHS, it would surely make sense for them to tender the job, and facilitate the roll-out would it not?
		
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May be. But at what cost to me and the millions who never venture outside their country?
But why build a computer system that had to cope with all the manual variants in the current procedures, some of which were only decided on at the last minute.
"If the round is played in XX do this ...
or if the round is played in XX do that ...
otherwise do ...."

Further, would this worldwide system have to handle all the associated front end functions built in to the current ISV software?


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 3, 2022)

rulefan said:



			But why build a computer system that had to cope with all the manual variants in the current procedures, some of which were only decided on at the last minute.
"If the round is played in XX do this ...
or if the round is played in XX do that ...
otherwise do ...."
		
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While time consuming, that's not undoable by any means.






rulefan said:



			Further, would this worldwide system have to handle all the associated front end functions built in to the current ISV software?
		
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The worldwide system is for handicaps, your ISV provider currently has whatever jusridiction you are in already plugging in the link to the handicap master dataase, so that wouldn;t be any different






rulefan said:



			May be. But at what cost to me and the millions who never venture outside their country?
		
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Which of course is the argument most of us have made right from the beginning, a "world" system that virtually nobody will ever use, and as we now know is being implemented in a varity of different ways in different countries, making it's "world" claim even more nonsensical.


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## rulefan (Jun 3, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Which of course is the argument most of us have made right from the beginning, a "world" system that virtually nobody will ever use, and as we now know is being implemented in a varity of different ways in different countries, making it's "world" claim even more nonsensical.
		
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I don't believe the seven WHS bodies ever claimed that this was to be the end product.
Inter alia, they said "the 15 million golfers in 80 countries they cumulatively represent — will lay aside their differences and *begin* adhering to the same rules. " (My emphasis)
"We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ” 
IMO they have made a pretty good start.


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## wjemather (Jun 3, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			...and as we now know is being implemented in a varity of different ways in different countries, making it's "world" claim even more nonsensical.
		
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Absolute rubbish, as usual. It was repeatedly stated that local authorities would be able to tailor WHS to how golf is played in their jurisdiction.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 4, 2022)

rulefan said:



			I don't believe the seven WHS bodies ever claimed that this was to be the end product.
Inter alia, they said "the 15 million golfers in 80 countries they cumulatively represent — will lay aside their differences and *begin* adhering to the same rules. " (My emphasis)
"We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ”
IMO they have made a pretty good start.
		
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I can assure you Scottish Golf did make just such a claim


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## rulefan (Jun 4, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I can assure you Scottish Golf did make just such a claim
		
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What was it they were claiming and where?


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## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I can assure you Scottish Golf did make just such a claim
		
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Scottish and English governing bodies can’t agree amongst themselves so I’m not sure how or why the Scottish body should make such a claim.


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## rulefan (Jun 5, 2022)

A pilot scheme allowing golfers in England and Scotland to more easily cross borders and put in a score for handicap is set to be unveiled next year.

England Golf have given details of the World Handicap System integration project they are working on with Scottish Golf alongside the R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group.

Despite being one of the key planks on which WHS was sold – the chance to record an acceptable score that counts on courses across the globe – the reality for golfers has been different.

Back in April, we reported how various systems managing WHS across a number of jurisdictions couldn’t talk to each other. That has meant golfers haven’t been able to use their digital app or a touchscreen to submit scores in some other countries – instead having to carry out a convoluted process, which included pre-registering intent to score at the course played, submitting it, and then taking a copy or photograph of the scorecard and handing it into home clubs.

Now part of this two-pronged pilot will focus on the “ability to automatically transfer scores from rounds played and submitted at clubs in England to a player’s Scottish record and vice-versa”.

England Golf said they aim to have that available in 2022.

Looking at the background, the Woodhall Spa-based body explained that England, Wales and Ireland had adopted the same operating system to roll out the World Handicap System but, in Scotland and other countries around the world, “the administration system chosen to implement the same WHS calculation does vary in design”.

They continued: “The pilot scheme between England and Scotland will help provide a blueprint that allows each platform to ‘speak’ to each other and allow greater connectivity between national associations in the future”.

The other part of the pilot scheme will give clubs in both countries the ability to look up the handicap index of a player by inputting their ID number into the system. That is already available through England Golf’s WHS platform.

England Golf said: “There is a long-standing tradition of golfers from both sides of the border enjoying trips either north or south to experience new courses or re-visit old favourites.

“As a consequence, England Golf and Scottish Golf fully recognise the importance of this pilot and are working in close collaboration with The R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group as we move towards a fully connected WHS.”


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 5, 2022)

rulefan said:



			What was it they were claiming and where?
		
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"The New system will allow players to play in any country equally with the local players" or some such drivel (my paraphrase.

I believe it was on their hive.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 5, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Scottish and English governing bodies can’t agree amongst themselves so I’m not sure how or why the Scottish body should make such a claim.
		
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Arrogance, and an inability to listen to any feedback is their modus operandi


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## wjemather (Jun 5, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			"The New system will allow players to play in any country equally with the local players" or some such drivel (my paraphrase.

I believe it was on their hive.
		
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It's equitably rather than equally, but that aside... you do understand that this is actually what has happened, don't you?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 5, 2022)

rulefan said:



			A pilot scheme allowing golfers in England and Scotland to more easily cross borders and put in a score for handicap is set to be unveiled next year.

England Golf have given details of the World Handicap System integration project they are working on with Scottish Golf alongside the R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group.

Despite being one of the key planks on which WHS was sold – the chance to record an acceptable score that counts on courses across the globe – the reality for golfers has been different.

Back in April, we reported how various systems managing WHS across a number of jurisdictions couldn’t talk to each other. That has meant golfers haven’t been able to use their digital app or a touchscreen to submit scores in some other countries – instead having to carry out a convoluted process, which included pre-registering intent to score at the course played, submitting it, and then taking a copy or photograph of the scorecard and handing it into home clubs.

Now part of this two-pronged pilot will focus on the “ability to automatically transfer scores from rounds played and submitted at clubs in England to a player’s Scottish record and vice-versa”.

England Golf said they aim to have that available in 2022.

Looking at the background, the Woodhall Spa-based body explained that England, Wales and Ireland had adopted the same operating system to roll out the World Handicap System but, in Scotland and other countries around the world, “the administration system chosen to implement the same WHS calculation does vary in design”.

They continued: “The pilot scheme between England and Scotland will help provide a blueprint that allows each platform to ‘speak’ to each other and allow greater connectivity between national associations in the future”.

The other part of the pilot scheme will give clubs in both countries the ability to look up the handicap index of a player by inputting their ID number into the system. That is already available through England Golf’s WHS platform.

England Golf said: “There is a long-standing tradition of golfers from both sides of the border enjoying trips either north or south to experience new courses or re-visit old favourites.

“As a consequence, England Golf and Scottish Golf fully recognise the importance of this pilot and are working in close collaboration with The R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group as we move towards a fully connected WHS.”
		
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Hurray.....

Should cheer up our Scottish members when this eventually happens.

Shame it's taking so long.....


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## rulefan (Jun 5, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			"The New system will allow players to play in any country equally with the local players" or some such drivel (my paraphrase.

I believe it was on their hive.
		
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What has that got to do with inter-connecting scores between databases?




			We're talking about the systems not talking to each other, what did you think the non-posting of foreign scores meant? We already have to do this manually, we're discussing not doing it manually,
		
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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 6, 2022)

rulefan said:



			What has that got to do with inter-connecting scores between databases?
		
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You're like a two Ronnies sketch, the matermind one, "answering the question before last"


You said "We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ” - that's what was one of the main claims of SG when this was launched, and it's anything but at present. That's what it's got to do with inter-connecting databases


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## wjemather (Jun 6, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You said "We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ” - that's what was one of the main claims of SG when this was launched, and it's anything but at present. That's what it's got to do with inter-connecting databases
		
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You are totally misunderstanding what is meant by handicaps being portable. It simply means players can compete equitably anywhere because handicaps are directly comparable. It has nothing to do with handicap records, or even individual scores, being transferred between jurisdictions.


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## rulefan (Jun 6, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're like a two Ronnies sketch, the matermind one, "answering the question before last"


You said "We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ” - that's what was one of the main claims of SG when this was launched, and it's anything but at present. That's what it's got to do with inter-connecting databases
		
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Portability is about the players handicap itself not about how about the scoring records are transported around the world
The same basic calculations are performed whenever a round has been played and before the next one is played. One very low score does not result in a substantial reduction in one jurisdiction but produce no discernible change in another. Handicaps are recalculated daily everywhere as opposed to fortnightly in some areas.


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## wjemather (Jun 6, 2022)

Getting back to ISV issues... I'm looking for assistance. Specifically, I'd like information on how the various ISVs (particularly interested in Golf Genius, which our club are leaning towards as a replacement for ClubV1 as it links with BRS) deal with the following irritations with respect to the rules:

Handicap on scorecard too low
Scorecard not returned
With ClubV1, neither of these things are dealt with acceptably and CSI's response (having intermittently re-raised the issues for the past 18 months) seems pretty clueless.

The suggestion by CSI is to amend the score accordingly in ClubV1 and then correct it on WHS: "_I have confirmed with our development team that due to the licencing agreement with the Golf Unions we are unable to transmit handicaps , due to this all scores that are being processed under rule 3.3b must be entered directly onto the WHS platform._" To me, it seems obvious that what is required is a simple facility to override the calculated Course Handicap in the competition software, and at no point would there be a requirement to "transmit handicaps" with the actual gross scores being sent to WHS as normal (and no need for scores to be "entered directly onto the WHS platform").
Similarly to the above, ClubV1 gives the option to "do nothing" or "apply NR" (i.e. 18 NDBs), and then requires manually fixing everything on the WHS Platform. Only the first option complies with the RoH, but overlooks the need for following up the non-return, which surely could easily be automated (in the same way GP score now are) by simply registering an intent on WHS.
Thanks.


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## IanMcC (Jun 9, 2022)

Interesting one today. Got an email from a chap who wondered why his index changed from 12.5 to 12.6, when the differential that was replaced was the same as the one inserted, 14.7.
Its obvious I suppose, but I found it interesting. The old round was at a different course, with a different Slope Rating and Course Rating. The exact differential from that one was 14.67177.
The new round had a differential of 14.7429. That difference, when averaged out with the other 7 scores, was enough to put him up 0.1.

OK, I'll get my coat.......


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## rulefan (Jun 9, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Getting back to ISV issues... I'm looking for assistance. Specifically, I'd like information on how the various ISVs (particularly interested in Golf Genius, which our club are leaning towards as a replacement for ClubV1 as it links with BRS) deal with the following irritations with respect to the rules:
		
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Do you use V1 for its other club management facilities? I believe GG has no other functions than Tournament (ie competition) management.
Incidentally V1 is introducing its own integrated booking system shortly. We are in the middle of testing it.


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## wjemather (Jun 9, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Do you use V1 for its other club management facilities? I believe GG has no other functions than Tournament (ie competition) management.
Incidentally V1 is introducing its own integrated booking system shortly. We are in the middle of testing it.
		
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The intention would be to use migrate membership management to BRS, which we currently use for bookings, and comps to GG. From a comps and handicaps point of view, I'd just like a system that actually facilitates the rules properly, which ClubV1 doesn't (and CSI seem to have no interest in fixing it or simply do not understand the issues).
Apparently, comments from other club managers who've been using ClubV1 for booking were not very positive (although the system is obviously still undergoing heavy development), so the club are not keen to go down that route.


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## rulefan (Jun 9, 2022)

wjemather said:



			The intention would be to use migrate membership management to BRS, which we currently use for bookings, and comps to GG. From a comps and handicaps point of view, I'd just like a system that actually facilitates the rules properly, which ClubV1 doesn't (and CSI seem to have no interest in fixing it or simply do not understand the issues).
Apparently, comments from other club managers who've been using ClubV1 for booking were not very positive (although the system is obviously still undergoing heavy development), so the club are not keen to go down that route.
		
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Out assistant manager reckons it's looking good so far.
Does BRS do Club Management (bar, catering, accounts, Open entry payments)?


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## IanMcC (Jun 9, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Do you use V1 for its other club management facilities? I believe GG has no other functions than Tournament (ie competition) management.
Incidentally V1 is introducing its own integrated booking system shortly. We are in the middle of testing it.
		
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We have the Ultimate ClubV1 package, which includes its own integrated booking system. Has done since January at least, when we changed to it.


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## wjemather (Jun 9, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Out assistant manager reckons it's looking good so far.
Does BRS do Club Management (bar, catering, accounts, Open entry payments)?
		
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Yes; opens are in the booking module, and I believe the rest are in the point-of-sale module. However, I don't think we have any plans in this regard due to pro shop, bar & catering being independent from the club.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 19, 2022)

Onboarding foreign member.

We have a new member who has joined us as an away member from his club in Kenya.  They use HDID as do we and he hoped that having a full playing record on this system he should be able link to our version of Club V1 (yes I know)!

I generated an EG record as his 12 digit id couldn't be recognised by Club V1. I then generated a V1 record. 

Advice from Club Systems was followed  to link the 2 and failed totally to work. 

I was then told to load his playing record from Kenya into the EG platform. The 21 records went back over 6 months but the EG won't allow you to use dates older than a couple of weeks. So all records loaded with the same date. At lease this generated a HI (although slightly different to the one in Kenya). Member told to generate a new HDID account using a different email address - worked OK.

So we are now in a position where he can add scores but unfortunately I will have to go into the EG system after every round to delete the oldest score from his Kenya based system to ensure the latest 20 are used to calculate his new HI.

He has now told me he intends to play in Spain when he visits!

So in conclusion on-boarding a non-EG member was a pain and will continue to be so until he has filled his playing record. This isn't a unique circumstance and frankly the lack of co-existence is pathetic.

Sorry - rant over.


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## wjemather (Jun 19, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Onboarding foreign member.

We have a new member who has joined us as an away member from his club in Kenya.  They use HDID as do we and he hoped that having a full playing record on this system he should be able link to our version of Club V1 (yes I know)!

I generated an EG record as his 12 digit id couldn't be recognised by Club V1. I then generated a V1 record.

Advice from Club Systems was followed  to link the 2 and failed totally to work.

I was then told to load his playing record from Kenya into the EG platform. The 21 records went back over 6 months but the EG won't allow you to use dates older than a couple of weeks. So all records loaded with the same date. At lease this generated a HI (although slightly different to the one in Kenya). Member told to generate a new HDID account using a different email address - worked OK.

So we are now in a position where he can add scores but unfortunately I will have to go into the EG system after every round to delete the oldest score from his Kenya based system to ensure the latest 20 are used to calculate his new HI.

He has now told me he intends to play in Spain when he visits!

So in conclusion on-boarding a non-EG member was a pain and will continue to be so until he has filled his playing record. This isn't a unique circumstance and frankly the lack of co-existence is pathetic.

Sorry - rant over.
		
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I've recreated handicap records on the EG WHS Platform for several members who have joined from/spend time in other countries (including the US, Cyprus and Scotland), using scores going back to 2018, without any problem in selecting the correct date.

The only really unintuitive part of the process was the entering of the course ratings of the necessary tee sets for the corresponding date when the tee set already exists on the system but not for the date required.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 19, 2022)

wjemather said:



			I've recreated handicap records on the EG WHS Platform for several members who have joined from/spend time in other countries (including the US, Cyprus and Scotland), using scores going back to 2018, without any problem in selecting the correct date.

The only really unintuitive part of the process was the entering of the course ratings of the necessary tee sets for the corresponding date when the tee set already exists on the system but not for the date required.
		
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That was what tripped me up - how do you get round this with such a broad spread of dates?


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## wjemather (Jun 19, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			That was what tripped me up - how do you get round this with such a broad spread of dates?
		
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I found that once you've entered the ratings for the earliest date, they're retained on the system for the later dates (editable if necessary). Sorry, I can't remember the precise order everything needed to be done in to set the ratings up initially, but it did seem like a bit of a fiddle.


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## nickjdavis (Jun 21, 2022)

I am correct in my belief that, when calculating Course Handicap in Scotland you take into account the difference between course rating and par aren't I?

So why does the Scottish Golf Course Handicap Calculator not seem to take this into account...the calculations below seem to be purely based on Slope/113

WHS Course Lookup | Scottish Golf


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## wjemather (Jun 21, 2022)

nickjdavis said:



			I am correct in my belief that, when calculating Course Handicap in Scotland you take into account the difference between course rating and par aren't I?

So why does the Scottish Golf Course Handicap Calculator not seem to take this into account...the calculations below seem to be purely based on Slope/113
		
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The CH calculation is the same across GB&I, i.e. without CR-Par.

The only difference in Scotland is that the unrounded CH is used in the Playing Handicap calculations.


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## nickjdavis (Jun 21, 2022)

wjemather said:



			The CH calculation is the same across GB&I, i.e. without CR-Par.

The only difference in Scotland is that the unrounded CH is used in the Playing Handicap calculations.
		
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 cheers...for some reason I'd got it into my head that Scotland used CR-Par


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## Banchory Buddha (Jun 22, 2022)

nickjdavis said:



			I am correct in my belief that, when calculating Course Handicap in Scotland you take into account the difference between course rating and par aren't I?

So why does the Scottish Golf Course Handicap Calculator not seem to take this into account...the calculations below seem to be purely based on Slope/113

WHS Course Lookup | Scottish Golf

View attachment 43152

Click to expand...

No, just that we take the *exact* course handicap when calculating the playing handicap.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 24, 2022)

wjemather said:



			The intention would be to use migrate membership management to BRS, which we currently use for bookings, and comps to GG. From a comps and handicaps point of view, I'd just like a system that actually facilitates the rules properly, which ClubV1 doesn't (and CSI seem to have no interest in fixing it or simply do not understand the issues).
Apparently, comments from other club managers who've been using ClubV1 for booking were not very positive (although the system is obviously still undergoing heavy development), so the club are not keen to go down that route.
		
Click to expand...

We only use V1 for membership management & competitions. Our booking is via a separate system (bespoke) and we don't use it for bar management, etc. Like several of you I am increasingly frustrated with CSI's inability to do the basics well (we have several faults outstanding with no fix promised). Is Golf Genius or Handicap Master a realistic alternative to Club V1 and what is the replacement cost?


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## rosecott (Jun 24, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We only use V1 for membership management & competitions. Our booking is via a separate system (bespoke) and we don't use it for bar management, etc. Like several of you I am increasingly frustrated with CSI's inability to do the basics well (we have several faults outstanding with no fix promised). Is Golf Genius or Handicap Master a realistic alternative to Club V1 and what is the replacement cost?
		
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I would recommend Handicapmaster very highly. We have been using it for over 20 years and their support is top class and immediate. We paid £370 for the last year up to date. I have also been involved with V1 - we have 2 clubs here and the other one uses V1 - and I would say that Handicapmaster is superior.


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## rulefan (Jun 28, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We only use V1 for membership management & competitions. Our booking is via a separate system (bespoke) and we don't use it for bar management, etc. Like several of you I am increasingly frustrated with CSI's inability to do the basics well (we have several faults outstanding with no fix promised). Is Golf Genius or Handicap Master a realistic alternative to Club V1 and what is the replacement cost?
		
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Certainly HM has a far superior support facility.


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## Golfie (Jul 6, 2022)

On a different matter my WHI has changed this week without a card being submitted nd I know of another member that it has happened to. Has anyone any ideas please?


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2022)

Golfie said:



			On a different matter my WHI has changed this week without a card being submitted nd I know of another member that it has happened to. Has anyone any ideas please?
		
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Your handicap committee are in the best position to answer.


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## Golfie (Jul 6, 2022)

I am the ladies handicap secretary at my club and several handicaps have changed mine included and I haven’t played.  I was wondering if any other clubs were encountering problems.  Perhaps a software update at EG has affected rounding calculations.


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## wjemather (Jul 6, 2022)

Golfie said:



			I am the ladies handicap secretary at my club and several handicaps have changed mine included and I haven’t played.  I was wondering if any other clubs were encountering problems.  Perhaps a software update at EG has affected rounding calculations.
		
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Probably should have led with that. 

Ok, so I've had a quick look and can see a few of our members HIs have come down slightly (ISV and WHS currently disagree). If I were to guess, I'd say the calculation for 9-hole differentials has been changed.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 6, 2022)

Golfie said:



			I am the ladies handicap secretary at my club and several handicaps have changed mine included and I haven’t played.  I was wondering if any other clubs were encountering problems.  Perhaps a software update at EG has affected rounding calculations.
		
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Could it be related to the low index being changed on the 1 year anniversary and thus the soft cap recalculating on the existing 20 scores?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 7, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Could it be related to the low index being changed on the 1 year anniversary and thus the soft cap recalculating on the existing 20 scores?
		
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The change in low Index only impacts the current index once a fresh score is submitted.


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## rulefan (Jul 7, 2022)

Golfie said:



			I am the ladies handicap secretary at my club and several handicaps have changed mine included and I haven’t played.  I was wondering if any other clubs were encountering problems.  Perhaps a software update at EG has affected rounding calculations.
		
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Is your ISV showing the same as the WHS itself?
Have you contacted whs.support@englandgolf.org


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## Golfie (Jul 7, 2022)

Yesterday Club V1 handicap differed from EG, only by 0.2 (but did affect affect number of strokes received) but now the same.  Past record of handicaps for rounds has also changed.  Probably wishful thinking but would be nice to know the cause 😄


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## rulefan (Jul 7, 2022)

Golfie said:



			Yesterday Club V1 handicap differed from EG, only by 0.2 (but did affect affect number of strokes received) but now the same.  Past record of handicaps for rounds has also changed.  Probably wishful thinking but would be nice to know the cause 😄
		
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You probably find out by contacting WHS support.




			Past record of handicaps for rounds has also changed.
		
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Where? On V1 or WHS?


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## Golfie (Jul 7, 2022)

Previously just EG but today both.  So for example a competition entered with a WHI of 16.5 (EG index at time) has now changed to 16.3. Therefore actual  card differs.  My handicap on the other hand unfortunately went up 0.2, although on the positive side I have now gained a stroke in a knockout I’m due to play. Not sure opponents will be happy though.


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## yandabrown (Jul 7, 2022)

I've just seen this posted on IG:

We were made aware by a number of customers that some players had a handicap index change applied in the overnight process yesterday, despite having not played golf for some time.

We immediately contacted DotGolf to ask for an explanation, please see below;

_*In the last 24-48 hours, some golfers who have played 9 hole rounds and have scores recorded within WHS may have seen a slight change in their handicap index.  *_

_*This is a result of a challenge to the interpretation of the technical specification of WHS regarding the 9 hole score differential, and after discussion and agreement with the Unions, and to ensure that players’ handicap index are correctly calculated, any affected 9 hole score differentials have been re-calculated and changes applied to players’ scoring records.*_

_*Note not all golfers are affected, not all golfers with 9H scores in their latest 20 scores will have a change to HI, and the change for most golfers will be minimal.  *_

_*We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused and for the lack of advance notice.*_

If you have any further queries regarding this, please contact your Union support team who may be able to look at individual cases.

_*intelligentgolf*_


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## Golfie (Jul 7, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			I've just seen this posted on IG:

We were made aware by a number of customers that some players had a handicap index change applied in the overnight process yesterday, despite having not played golf for some time.

We immediately contacted DotGolf to ask for an explanation, please see below;

_*In the last 24-48 hours, some golfers who have played 9 hole rounds and have scores recorded within WHS may have seen a slight change in their handicap index.  *_

_*This is a result of a challenge to the interpretation of the technical specification of WHS regarding the 9 hole score differential, and after discussion and agreement with the Unions, and to ensure that players’ handicap index are correctly calculated, any affected 9 hole score differentials have been re-calculated and changes applied to players’ scoring records.*_

_*Note not all golfers are affected, not all golfers with 9H scores in their latest 20 scores will have a change to HI, and the change for most golfers will be minimal.  *_

_*We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused and for the lack of advance notice.*_

If you have any further queries regarding this, please contact your Union support team who may be able to look at individual cases.

_*intelligentgolf*_

Click to expand...

Thanks.  I’m sure thats the explanation.  Would have been nice to have some notice.


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## rulefan (Jul 7, 2022)

I have asked EG for clarification. Don't hold your breath


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## Old Skier (Jul 7, 2022)

rulefan said:



			You probably find out by contacting WHS support.?
		
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Clubs have been asked by county’s not to contact support direct but go through county reps.


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## IanMcC (Jul 8, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Probably should have led with that. 

Ok, so I've had a quick look and can see a few of our members HIs have come down slightly (ISV and WHS currently disagree). If I were to guess, I'd say the calculation for 9-hole differentials has been changed.
		
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That was a very good guess in light of DotGolf's announcement.  Can I ask what prompted you to think it was the 9 hole diffs that were askew? It happened overnight at our club, and I have sent out DotGolf's message to members before I am buried under an avalanche of emails! I went up from 8.3 to 8.4 myself. So far, everyone affected at my club seems to have went up a little, rather than down. Slope for our 9 hole is 124, Par 35 and Rating 34.3. Can you shed any light on the changes?


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## wjemather (Jul 8, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			That was a very good guess in light of DotGolf's announcement.  Can I ask what prompted you to think it was the 9 hole diffs that were askew? It happened overnight at our club, and I have sent out DotGolf's message to members before I am buried under an avalanche of emails! I went up from 8.3 to 8.4 myself. So far, everyone affected at my club seems to have went up a little, rather than down. Slope for our 9 hole is 124, Par 35 and Rating 34.3. Can you shed any light on the changes?
		
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We don't have many people who submit 9-hole scores and they were the only ones who seemed to be affected, and it seemed to correlate with what was being discussed recently in another thread.

I've been advised by our RHA that dotgolf was simply and incorrectly using the 9hCH for the second 9 (for scaling up). The calculation now simply uses the difference between the (2x9h)18hCH and the 9hCH for the second 9. When this 18hCH is an odd number, the new methodology results in 1 stroke more or fewer for the second 9 than before, and a higher or lower differential.

From a mathematical perspective, this new method is also overly simplistic and results in an anomaly, whereby a lower index player can return the same actual score as a higher index player, but the higher indexed player achieves a lower differential.


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## rulefan (Jul 8, 2022)

wjemather said:



			We don't have many people who submit 9-hole scores and they were the only ones who seemed to be affected, and it seemed to correlate with what was being discussed recently in another thread.

I've been advised by our RHA that dotgolf was simply and incorrectly using the 9hCH for the second 9 (for scaling up). The calculation now simply uses the difference between the (2x9h)18hCH and the 9hCH for the second 9. When this 18hCH is an odd number, the new methodology results in 1 stroke more or fewer for the second 9 than before, and a higher or lower differential.

From a mathematical perspective, this new method is also overly simplistic and results in an anomaly, whereby a lower index player can return the same actual score as a higher index player, but the higher indexed player achieves a lower differential.
		
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Without going back to the 'other thread', does this 'new' method tally with your proposition in the 'other thread' as opposed to voyager's original thoughts ?


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## wjemather (Jul 8, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Without going back to the 'other thread', does this 'new' method tally with your proposition in the 'other thread' as opposed to voyager's original thoughts ?
		
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Assuming it is being calculated as described by our RHA (which is consistent with the explanation given in the example in Appendix I of CONGU's guidance), it's now doing what Voyager insists is "correct".


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## Swango1980 (Jul 15, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			My best 8 scores equate to 155.4/8 = 19.4

My HI is 19.3..

Whilst  not an issue is there a reason for the slight discrepancy please?
		
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Not ruling out rounding errors. But, another explanation might be that you are above the soft cap threshold. What is your lowest Index in the last year?


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## IanMcC (Jul 18, 2022)

Myself and MrsMcC this weekend played in a Mixed Greensome Stableford Open at Aberdovey. (Outstanding course, btw)
I used the Mixed Tee Calculator to work out our allowance before we went. Screenshot attached.

The Calculator gave us 20. At the course we received 19.
The scoring for the comp was taken off of the red ladies tees.

My question is, because the scoring was taken off of the teeset with no allowance (red/ladies), does this negate the allowance for the teeset which has an allowance (white/men)? Or did Aberdovey simply not add the allowance?


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## wjemather (Jul 18, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			Myself and MrsMcC this weekend played in a Mixed Greensome Stableford Open at Aberdovey. (Outstanding course, btw)
I used the Mixed Tee Calculator to work out our allowance before we went. Screenshot attached.

The Calculator gave us 20. At the course we received 19.
The scoring for the comp was taken off of the red ladies tees.

My question is, because the scoring was taken off of the teeset with no allowance (red/ladies), does this negate the allowance for the teeset which has an allowance (white/men)? Or did Aberdovey simply not add the allowance?
		
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The mixed tee adjustment still applies irrespective of which tee set is used for scoring purposes.


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## rosecott (Aug 4, 2022)

I had a pleasantly positive WHS experience today.

A new member presented himself today, armed with a CDH number from Wales Golf - he had left his previous Welsh club to move to our locality. I looked up the procedure in the WHS manual and I was amazed that, in just under 2 minutes, he had a new England Golf CDH ID and his full Welsh scoring history. I was impressed.


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## IanMcC (Aug 6, 2022)

Some time ago there was a release either from the R&A or CONGU stating that a golf union could accept Playing Handicap or Handicap Index on the scorecard, rather than insisting on Course Handicap. I know it was posted on here somewhere, but I cant find it now either here or online. Could someone provide a link, please? Thanks in advance.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 6, 2022)

rosecott said:



			I had a pleasantly positive WHS experience today.

A new member presented himself today, armed with a CDH number from Wales Golf - he had left his previous Welsh club to move to our locality. I looked up the procedure in the WHS manual and I was amazed that, in just under 2 minutes, he had a new England Golf CDH ID and his full Welsh scoring history. I was impressed.
		
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Could you please point me in the direction of which document you found this process in?


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## rosecott (Aug 6, 2022)

Please refer to the following section in the WHS User Guide:

New Members: Adding a Member (change of home club/adding a participant to the club membership list)

The User Guide can be downloaded from THIS LINK 

Follow the process to add 'New Member' entering the Welsh/Irish CDH id in the 'Previous Membership' field, and selecting the relevant country from the pop-up menu country drop down (as shown below):








The existing member will appear in the search results and you can continue to add the member ensuring you enter their email address and date of birth in the relevant fields.

Once you click ‘Submit’ an English CDH id will be generated for the member to use in England which will be linked to their Welsh/Irish CDH ID they’ll continue to use in Wales/Ireland.


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## wjemather (Aug 6, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			Some time ago there was a release either from the R&A or CONGU stating that a golf union could accept Playing Handicap or Handicap Index on the scorecard, rather than insisting on Course Handicap. I know it was posted on here somewhere, but I cant find it now either here or online. Could someone provide a link, please? Thanks in advance.
		
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It's in the interpretations and clarifications of the rules of golf (3.3b(4)/1 and 3.3b(4)/C1); it allows national associations to diverge from the interpretation of Course Handicap.
CONGU reaffirm Course Handicap as the requirement in GB&I.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 8, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			A question for Club V1 / HDID users.

We are having problems when entering GP rounds via the PSI terminals in our clubhouse. The problem occurs when entering a score incorrectly and then trying to edit it. If the player does this the score is corrupted and will not be sent to the WHS system and just sits there in error. If you try to edit it from admin you see 27 or 36 holes rather than 18 and can't delete any of them to make it acceptable to WHS. The only option is to delete the round and re-enter from admin which is a pain.

This doesn't occur for competitions, only GP. I have reported this several times to Club Systems but their second line support say they can't find a fault even thought I have left errant entries on the system.

Has anyone else seen this?
		
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This still isn't working despite CS acknowledging the problem. 3 more instances today. Really frustrating that a hard error is taking so long to fix!

Sorry rant over - breath.


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## IanMcC (Aug 8, 2022)

Another CV1 flaw. We have a Texas Scramble Open coming up soon. It is oversubscribed, and we wanted to add a few more teeslots. We already had about 12 holes with 2 groups on, but wanted to add a few more.
After trying unsuccessfully to do this, a phone call to Club Systems revealed that the only way to add more slots is to completely remove ALL players from the start sheet, then add the new slots, then re-populate the start sheet.
I had to do that, making note of who had paid and who hadn't.

How dopey is that!!!


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## wjemather (Aug 8, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			Another CV1 flaw. We have a Texas Scramble Open coming up soon. It is oversubscribed, and we wanted to add a few more teeslots. We already had about 12 holes with 2 groups on, but wanted to add a few more.
After trying unsuccessfully to do this, a phone call to Club Systems revealed that the only way to add more slots is to completely remove ALL players from the start sheet, then add the new slots, then re-populate the start sheet.
I had to do that, making note of who had paid and who hadn't.

How dopey is that!!!
		
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Yes, not being able to reconfigure populated competition start sheets in even a minor way that doesn't affect existing bookings is a particular annoyance.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 15, 2022)

One for the IG users please.

We have a member who is a Home player at our club but he is also a member of another club who are an IG user.

Some scores have turned up in his EG record for our club - both GP and Competition (and bizarrely matchplay) which have been entered from the other club. When I challenged him about these he said he thought his home club was the other club so he had entered all his scores there.

I don't see how this is possible but I don't know IG.

Is it possible (without admin rights) for a user to enter scores in IG for another club? If not, any idea how this could happen?


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## wjemather (Aug 26, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Yes, not being able to reconfigure populated competition start sheets in even a minor way that doesn't affect existing bookings is a particular annoyance.
		
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Similarly, changing a set of tees for a mixed team competition cannot be done, resulting in the need to recreate the entire competition and start sheet. That's yet another hour I'm not getting back due to bad design/programming!


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## IanMcC (Aug 27, 2022)

So, its our Handicap Club Champs this weekend. 36 hole comp, 18 on Saturday and 18 on Sunday.
If someone is a no show for their Sunday round, should they be given a penalty score? It is, I suppose, and unsatisfied intent.


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			So, its our Handicap Club Champs this weekend. 36 hole comp, 18 on Saturday and 18 on Sunday.
If someone is a no show for their Sunday round, should they be given a penalty score? It is, I suppose, and unsatisfied intent.
		
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I’m not sure they would as under V1 you register for each 18 comp separately if I remember correctly.


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## IanMcC (Aug 27, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			I’m not sure they would as under V1 you register for each 18 comp separately if I remember correctly.
		
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I have set the comp up as a 36 hole event. The two rounds are separate inside the comp, but the comp is one entity of 36 holes, if you like.
You are right in as much as you have to sign in for the second round again, so I suppose no penalty score involved.


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## rulefan (Aug 27, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			I have set the comp up as a 36 hole event. The two rounds are separate inside the comp, but the comp is one entity of 36 holes, if you like.
You are right in as much as you have to sign in for the second round again, so I suppose no penalty score involved.
		
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IMO it will be one competition but two handicap rounds as there will be two 'registrations'.


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## wjemather (Aug 27, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			So, its our Handicap Club Champs this weekend. 36 hole comp, 18 on Saturday and 18 on Sunday.
If someone is a no show for their Sunday round, should they be given a penalty score? It is, I suppose, and unsatisfied intent.
		
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See CONGU guidance G2.1a(2)&(3) - rounds not started (for whatever reason) do not count for handicapping, so Penalty Scores shouldn't be applied although disciplinary sanctions may.


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 30, 2022)

Bogey Comps and handicap Scores

In an attempt to speed-up play our Men's Section ran a bogey competition last week. I was asked (post-competition) to confirm the impact of scoring wrt handicap. My initial response was that if you couldn't at least half a hole you should pick-up and I assumed a net bogey would be added to your score. 

Apparently this is not the case as I was informed a nett double bogey was allocated to any holes "lost" to the course.

This begged the question of when to pick-up. Forgetting the difference between playing handicap and course handicap for a moment, if a player misses a putt to half a hole with the course it is worth holing the putt for a loss and recording a bogey rather than being given a double bogey by default for handicap purposes. Is this correct?

If so it works against the normal view of a par/bogey comp which encourages you to pick-up if you can't score against the course. It's much nearer stableford logic of a point for a bogey.

I've looked in the manuals but can't find a specific reference - can anyone help please?


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## rosecott (Aug 31, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Bogey Comps and handicap Scores

In an attempt to speed-up play our Men's Section ran a bogey competition last week. I was asked (post-competition) to confirm the impact of scoring wrt handicap. My initial response was that if you couldn't at least half a hole you should pick-up and I assumed a net bogey would be added to your score.

Apparently this is not the case as I was informed a nett double bogey was allocated to any holes "lost" to the course.

This begged the question of when to pick-up. Forgetting the difference between playing handicap and course handicap for a moment, if a player misses a putt to half a hole with the course it is worth holing the putt for a loss and recording a bogey rather than being given a double bogey by default for handicap purposes. Is this correct?

If so it works against the normal view of a par/bogey comp which encourages you to pick-up if you can't score against the course. It's much nearer stableford logic of a point for a bogey.

I've looked in the manuals but can't find a specific reference - can anyone help please?
		
Click to expand...

CONGU Handicapping Advice - Page 39


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## Swango1980 (Aug 31, 2022)

rosecott said:



			CONGU Handicapping Advice - Page 39
		
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To clarify, I think it is on Page 38 (albeit Page 39 overall, as title page isn't numbered).

Last sentence in 1st section on "Stroke Play Competitions: Stableford and Par/Bogey"


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To clarify, I think it is on Page 38 (albeit Page 39 overall, as title page isn't numbered).

Last sentence in 1st section on "Stroke Play Competitions: Stableford and Par/Bogey"
		
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Thanks - got it now - was looking at the old version of the manual not 1.6.


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## rosecott (Aug 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To clarify, I think it is on Page 38 (albeit Page 39 overall, as title page isn't numbered).In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey. 

Last sentence in 1st section on "Stroke Play Competitions: Stableford and Par/Bogey"
		
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*In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey. *

That is from page 39 of my manual'


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 31, 2022)

Professional Handicap

Sorry to ask again but we have 2 of our professionals who now have a WHS record and have been lodging cards when they play in certain club competitions. Interestingly the spread of HI is +3.5 to 3.5. These can be used to calculate team playing handicaps or individual ones depending on the event - these are mainly social / charity not board type events.

Does anyone have a policy for professionals playing in club competitions? Our was that they all play off scratch but with the evolution of WHS I'm not sure that holds.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 31, 2022)

rosecott said:



*In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey. *

That is from page 39 of my manual'
		
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I'm not sure I get those exact words at all, unless my eyes deceive me. On Page 38 (i.e. the page references at the bottom of each page), I read:

"As with Maximum Score, players should not pick up too soon in Stableford or Par/Bogey formats - they should play with reference to their Course Handicaps in such events and let the software deal with the competition outcome."

Are we looking at the same document. To be fair, the quickest way for me to find it is via Google. I am reading "Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB&I", Version 1.3 NOTE: I just noticed it is the Scottish Version, so not sure if that has anything to do with it.


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## wjemather (Aug 31, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Professional Handicap

Sorry to ask again but we have 2 of our professionals who now have a WHS record and have been lodging cards when they play in certain club competitions. Interestingly the spread of HI is +3.5 to 3.5. These can be used to calculate team playing handicaps or individual ones depending on the event - these are mainly social / charity not board type events.

Does anyone have a policy for professionals playing in club competitions? Our was that they all play off scratch but with the evolution of WHS I'm not sure that holds.
		
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Our terms of competition state that pros will play off either +2.0 HI or their WHS HI and are ineligible for certain prizes/trophies.


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## wjemather (Aug 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not sure I get those exact words at all, unless my eyes deceive me. On Page 38 (i.e. the page references at the bottom of each page), I read:

"As with Maximum Score, players should not pick up too soon in Stableford or Par/Bogey formats - they should play with reference to their Course Handicaps in such events and let the software deal with the competition outcome."

Are we looking at the same document. To be fair, the quickest way for me to find it is via Google. I am reading "Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB&I", Version 1.3 NOTE: I just noticed it is the Scottish Version, so not sure if that has anything to do with it.
		
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The current version is 1.6 (England/Wales/Ireland) and 1.7 (Scotland).


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## Swango1980 (Aug 31, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Professional Handicap

Sorry to ask again but we have 2 of our professionals who now have a WHS record and have been lodging cards when they play in certain club competitions. Interestingly the spread of HI is +3.5 to 3.5. These can be used to calculate team playing handicaps or individual ones depending on the event - these are mainly social / charity not board type events.

Does anyone have a policy for professionals playing in club competitions? Our was that they all play off scratch but with the evolution of WHS I'm not sure that holds.
		
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Interesting. I was always under the impression Professionals should not be playing in Amateur Competitions (obviously Pro/AMs are OK). But, it is not something I ever looked into in detail as it didn't directly effect me.

Mind you, if professionals were just allowed to play off scratch, under any system, some of them could be laughing. Based on the last Ryder Cup and assuming they submitted their scores for handicap (based on 4ball and singles), the best performer was Dustin, with a WHS handicap of +11. So, put him against amateurs off scratch, you give him an Index 11 shots higher than it should be  . I'd be annoyed as a +3.0 amateur, losing 3 shots on Dustin


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## Swango1980 (Aug 31, 2022)

wjemather said:



			The current version is 1.6 (England/Wales/Ireland) and 1.7 (Scotland).
		
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Cheers. Teach me to rely on Google. I usually go to England Golf, but find I need to referesh my mind on what links I need to go through to get the document I need. I used to use the CONGU site, which was easy, but I think they took them off there


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting. I was always under the impression Professionals should not be playing in Amateur Competitions (obviously Pro/AMs are OK). But, it is not something I ever looked into in detail as it didn't directly effect me.

Mind you, if professionals were just allowed to play off scratch, under any system, some of them could be laughing. Based on the last Ryder Cup and assuming they submitted their scores for handicap (based on 4ball and singles), the best performer was Dustin, with a WHS handicap of +11. So, put him against amateurs off scratch, you give him an Index 11 shots higher than it should be  . I'd be annoyed as a +3.0 amateur, losing 3 shots on Dustin
		
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It was the tail wagging the dog really. They only play in a couple of charity / social events each year but to enable them to get tee times / be included in teams they need a record on our system which generates an EG record (even though we tag them as professionals). I wasn't sure if the professional tag on the EG Platform would prevent a HI being generated but sure enough after the third score was submitted there it was!


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## rulefan (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not sure I get those exact words at all, unless my eyes deceive me. On Page 38 (i.e. the page references at the bottom of each page), I read:

"As with Maximum Score, players should not pick up too soon in Stableford or Par/Bogey formats - they should play with reference to their Course Handicaps in such events and let the software deal with the competition outcome."

Are we looking at the same document. To be fair, the quickest way for me to find it is via Google. I am reading "Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB&I", Version 1.3 NOTE: I just noticed it is the Scottish Version, so not sure if that has anything to do with it.
		
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I have 

_Version 1.6 
England, Wales and Ireland Version_

Page 39 includes

_*In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey.*_


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

rulefan said:



			I have

_Version 1.6 
England, Wales and Ireland Version_

Page 39 includes

_*In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey.*_

Click to expand...

Indeed, I believe this was cleared up in Post 1801  

I'm a little surprised there have been so many versions in such a short space of time. Would be interesting to know how much has changed between Version 1.0 and the current version. I also wonder how many club handicap secretaries diligently printed out version 1.0, and maybe don't realise we are now on Version 1.6


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## rosecott (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed, I believe this was cleared up in Post 1801 

I'm a little surprised there have been so many versions in such a short space of time. Would be interesting to know how much has changed between Version 1.0 and the current version. I also wonder how many club handicap secretaries diligently printed out version 1.0, and maybe don't realise we are now on Version 1.6
		
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Print out?

It's 2022.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Print out?

It's 2022.
		
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It is. But you do realise we are talking about golf committees here? There are people in my workplace who cannot concentrate reading off a screen, and still have to print everything out. I'd imagine there are a few people on golf committees who still prefer reading of physical paper


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## rulefan (Sep 1, 2022)

Page 3 of Version 1.6 shows that *"Advice on ‘picking up’ in Bogey Format to ensure best score for handicapping is recorded" *was changed in Version 1.6


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## Backsticks (Sep 4, 2022)

Is any correction made for Bogey format scores being higher than stableford or stroke due to the different strategy approach bogey competitions promote ? ie. two putts for a win, take the two as there is nothing to gain by trying to hole the one putt, or, a long putt for a half as a 'nothing to lose' approach rather than avoiding a worse outcome of three putting ?


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## Banchory Buddha (Sep 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Is any correction made for Bogey format scores being higher than stableford or stroke due to the different strategy approach bogey competitions promote ? ie. two putts for a win, take the two as there is nothing to gain by trying to hole the one putt, or, a long putt for a half as a 'nothing to lose' approach rather than avoiding a worse outcome of three putting ?
		
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no


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## rosecott (Sep 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Is any correction made for Bogey format scores being higher than stableford or stroke due to the different strategy approach bogey competitions promote ? ie. two putts for a win, take the two as there is nothing to gain by trying to hole the one putt, or, a long putt for a half as a 'nothing to lose' approach rather than avoiding a worse outcome of three putting ?
		
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It's just a different format which comes with a different mindset.


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## Backsticks (Sep 4, 2022)

rosecott said:



			It's just a different format which comes with a different mindset.
		
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With an inherent conflict of either scoring your best as your handicap will see it, or scoring your best as a bogey score. Inflating the hc score. I was just wondering if there was a correction factor applied to that.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

Would be interested to know if, with WHS being around for a bit of time now, if any clubs have had to communicate with members failing to submit scores, or even discipline them, suspend handicaps?

The thought crossed my mind having seen the last few scores of a friend of mine. Firstly, there are plenty of missing scores, as he pre-registered for general rounds but then never returned scores because he was fed up with how he was playing. So, his scores are from competitions. 8 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (and a little before that as low as 14.3, although rounds not submitted regularly, so in 2020 he was that low) In the 8 rounds since he was 17.8, his Adjusted Gross scores are:

100, 112, 101, 129, 129, 103, 97, 130

His Index is now 20.0. Because he doesn't submit scores frequently, his Hard Cap limit would be 22.1 at the moment, which he'll rapidly get to if he submits a few more similar scores.

His scores are so high because he basically gives up, and blobs many of the remaining holes. One of his excuses was he needed to walk off the course because he'd rather go home and paint a door. His 129, 129 and 130 are simply because he never bothered returning his score at all, and his club (different to mine) just put in 18 blobs.

I'd imagine such behaviour would be deemed a worry at some clubs, but I suspect his club haven't really addressed the issue yet. It is one of the more established clubs in the county, with a good reputation generally.

I can imagine he will get his mojo back at some point, and definitely be a candidate for 50 points


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## wjemather (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Would be interested to know if, with WHS being around for a bit of time now, if any clubs have had to communicate with members failing to submit scores, or even discipline them, suspend handicaps?

The thought crossed my mind having seen the last few scores of a friend of mine. Firstly, there are plenty of missing scores, as he pre-registered for general rounds but then never returned scores because he was fed up with how he was playing. So, his scores are from competitions. 8 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (and a little before that as low as 14.3, although rounds not submitted regularly, so in 2020 he was that low) In the 8 rounds since he was 17.8, his Adjusted Gross scores are:

100, 112, 101, 129, 129, 103, 97, 130

His Index is now 20.0. Because he doesn't submit scores frequently, his Hard Cap limit would be 22.1 at the moment, which he'll rapidly get to if he submits a few more similar scores.

His scores are so high because he basically gives up, and blobs many of the remaining holes. One of his excuses was he needed to walk off the course because he'd rather go home and paint a door. His 129, 129 and 130 are simply because he never bothered returning his score at all, and his club (different to mine) just put in 18 blobs.

I'd imagine such behaviour would be deemed a worry at some clubs, but I suspect his club haven't really addressed the issue yet. It is one of the more established clubs in the county, with a good reputation generally.
		
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We have probably emailed about half a dozen members about unreturned competition scores (GP pretty much takes care of itself - when the PSI is functioning properly!); after investigation it turned out only a couple of those were for unacceptable reasons and players were reminded of their responsibilities, etc. We haven't needed to go beyond applying Penalty Scores, and hopefully won't, but as with most clubs, there are one or two who like to play by their own rules.

Those high scores are most likely the software submitting all zeros (rather than the club committee). We do not allow this to happen as they are not acceptable scores (and thankfully ClubV1 no longer forces an "NR" score entry/submission for unreturned scores), but I do know some clubs (perhaps in ignorance) just trust the software to deal with it - incidentally, at least one is a members club with a "good reputation" where paid office staff perform the comps/handicap admin.


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## IanMcC (Oct 10, 2022)

If a player does not return a score either electronically or with a scorecard, a Penalty Score is always applied by M&H. (Unless they contact me with a valid reason.)
If they pre-register with one of the apps (HDID or Wales Golf) and leave an Unsatisfied Score Intent, then the software automatically gives them a Penalty Score 4 days later. They get an auto-generated warning letter beforehand.
The main issue at our club, I suppose, is people still not knowing the difference between 'Did Not Play' and 'Played But Did Not Score' on the PSI. Hardly a comp went by this Summer without editing taking place for 'NRs'.


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## rulefan (Oct 10, 2022)

IanMcC said:



			If a player does not return a score either electronically or with a scorecard, a Penalty Score is always applied by M&H. (Unless they contact me with a valid reason.)
If they pre-register with one of the apps (HDID or Wales Golf) and leave an Unsatisfied Score Intent, then the software automatically gives them a Penalty Score 4 days later. They get an auto-generated warning letter beforehand.
The main issue at our club, I suppose, is people still not knowing the difference between 'Did Not Play' and 'Played But Did Not Score' on the PSI. Hardly a comp went by this Summer without editing taking place for 'NRs'.
		
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As an aside. I have just noticed the HDID app provides a good prompt when dealing with '0' score holes.    

But back to the topic. We have only had to issue one warning so far.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 13, 2022)

We haven't had to issue any formal warnings or sanctions thus far. A few people have been spoken to by the section Captain and this appears to have solved the problem. Generally, we have a "three strikes" rule for NRs in a calendar year, so nobody has been sanctioned since WHS came in.

As far as GP rounds are concerned, we have stopped chasing missing scores and allow automatic penalties to be given if the player doesn't do anything. We have a lot of GP scores (200+ pcm) and are running at between 3 and 6 penalties per month.


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2022)

I have one numpty who always presses the GP button on the PSI instead of the enter comp. Forever having to sort him.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 8, 2022)

I have been trying to find what happens to completed rounds if a competition is subsequently abandoned.

Do completed rounds still count for handicap purposes or are they all reversed out?


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## wjemather (Nov 8, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I have been trying to find what happens to completed rounds if a competition is subsequently abandoned.

Do completed rounds still count for handicap purposes or are they all reversed out?
		
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All rounds where the minimum number of holes have been completed are acceptable for handicapping.


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