# Are the Tories The ENP ?



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2015)

A little quip from Andrew Marr made me smile.
When you think about it the Tories had eight seats outwith of England, probably six after the GE.
Does that make them by default the English National Party.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 19, 2015)

i still cant understand why in ENGLAND do we have to put up listening to a welsh woman whos party is the 4th (FOURTH )biggest in wales,and a scotish woman we cant vote for.Have the debates one for ENGLAND one for WALES and one for SCOTLAND, and when the dust settles the TORY party can carry on doing its good work,get rid of the WELSH and the SCOTISH votes and give them what they whant,freedom from westminster.


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## jp5 (Apr 19, 2015)

No. Next question?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			i still cant understand why in ENGLAND do we have to put up listening to a welsh woman whos party is the 4th (FOURTH )biggest in wales,and a scotish woman we cant vote for.Have the debates one for ENGLAND one for WALES and one for SCOTLAND, and when the dust settles the TORY party can carry on doing its good work,get rid of the WELSH and the SCOTISH votes and give them what they whant,freedom from westminster.
		
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You seem to have forgotten that Scotland voted to stay in the UK.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to have forgotten that Scotland voted to stay in the UK.
		
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Oh! the irony.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 19, 2015)

jp5 said:



			No. Next question?
		
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I agree.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to have forgotten that Scotland voted to stay in the UK.
		
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only by voters believing they would get more money from the government,why didnt the ENGLISH get a vote.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to have forgotten that Scotland voted to stay in the UK.
		
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You (constantly) seem unwilling to accept what the majority of your countrymen and women voted for.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			You (constantly) seem unwilling to accept what the majority of your countrymen and women voted for.
		
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I was quite happy with the way Scotland voted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			only by voters believing they would get more money from the government,why didnt the ENGLISH get a vote.
		
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Well these very voters were told by Cameron et al that they would be better (off) together staying in the united kingdom so that's what they voted for - so don't be surprised

And BTW many 100s of thousands of Scots didn't get a vote on the future of their country either. Besides its pretty obvious why the rUK electorate didn't get a vote given that had they had the vote then England might have voted YES to Scotland's NO - effectively throwing Scotland out of the union against its wishes and so an obvious non sterter


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well these very voters were told by Cameron et al that they would be better (off) together staying in the united kingdom so that's what they voted for - so don't be surprised

And BTW many 100s of thousands of Scots didn't get a vote on the future of their country either. Besides its pretty obvious why the rUK electorate didn't get a vote given that had they had the vote then England might have voted YES to Scotland's NO - effectively throwing Scotland out of the union against its wishes and so an obvious non sterter
		
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Think what you can do for your Nation rather than what can your Nation can do for you!   Too many Gimme Gimme, attitudes coming out of Scotland at the moment and the SNP are playing nasty games with the economy and are outright intent to build up animosity with the English.     It's just dirty politics on a scale we have not experienced and will sadly break up the UK.


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## c1973 (Apr 19, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Think what you can do for your Nation rather than what can your Nation can do for you!   Too many Gimme Gimme, attitudes coming out of Scotland at the moment and the SNP are playing nasty games with the economy *and are outright intent to build up animosity with the English.     It's just dirty politics* on a scale we have not experienced and will sadly break up the UK.
		
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I for one am glad some people can see that, I just wish more Scots would.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

I think you will find that it is Cameron reneging on The Vow that is the main driver for the SNP surge.
Plus Scottish Labour being absolutely clueless.
Dirty politics eh.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...al-report-on-scottish-government-impact-on-uk

Cameron losing the plot, he will be joining Nigel soon.

Family of Nations, better together, how soon they are forgotten.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.theguardian.com/politics...al-report-on-scottish-government-impact-on-uk

Cameron losing the plot, he will be joining Nigel soon.

Family of Nations, better together, how soon they are forgotten.
		
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Exactky, better together. Not, see how well Scotland can do atvthe expense of the rest of the UK. For someone who says he is happy at the NO vote, you do come across very bitter. You realise part of being in the UK is pulling in the same direction, right? Hence why the SNP are extremely dangerous in the election. Any party that doesn't care how the remaining 3 countries fare (to the extent they appear sometimes to hope they do badly), should not have any say in national politics.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Exactky, better together. Not, see how well Scotland can do atvthe expense of the rest of the UK. For someone who says he is happy at the NO vote, you do come across very bitter. You realise part of being in the UK is pulling in the same direction, right? Hence why the SNP are extremely dangerous in the election. Any party that doesn't care how the remaining 3 countries fare (to the extent they appear sometimes to hope they do badly), should not have any say in national politics.
		
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When have the SNP said that they don't care.
They are working for a better, fairer Scotland.
We don't like the Tory re-invention of pawnbrokers, payday loaners, poverty, massive rich/poor divide and foodbanks......... in one of the richest countries in the world.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you will find that it is Cameron reneging on The Vow that is the main driver for the SNP surge.
Plus Scottish Labour being absolutely clueless.
Dirty politics eh.
		
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We hear this a lot and I'm unable to determine the actual truth of it.

Specifically, what was promised that won't be delivered?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Armed-Forces-unless-Trident-is-scrapped.htmlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-paralyse-Armed-Forces-unless-Trident-is-scra

Serious Tory meltdown now.

Sorry looks like page has been deleted, I can understand why.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			We hear this a lot and I'm unable to determine the actual truth of it.

Specifically, what was promised that won't be delivered?
		
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Cameron' EVEL proposals of a UK Parliament was a game changer.
Nobody has voted for that.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cameron' EVEL proposals of a UK Parliament was a game changer.
Nobody has voted for that.
		
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I don't understand. What promises from "the vow" are not being delivered?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't understand. What promises from "the vow" are not being delivered?
		
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The three parties have 'delivered' the minimum they could get away with.
Then stuck on things like EVEL which was never on the agenda.
I believe 70% of Scots tax is still going south to Westminster


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The three parties have 'delivered' the minimum they could get away with.
Then stuck on things like EVEL which was never on the agenda.
I believe 70% of Scots tax is still going south to Westminster
		
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So "the vow" has been delivered then?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When have the SNP said that they don't care.
They are working for a better, fairer Scotland.
We don't like the Tory re-invention of pawnbrokers, payday loaners, poverty, massive rich/poor divide and foodbanks......... in one of the richest countries in the world.
		
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As far as tosh goes this is a new level.

None of the above have anything to do with the economic recession then according to your rewriting of recent history.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The three parties have 'delivered' the minimum they could get away with.
Then stuck on things like EVEL which was never on the agenda.
I believe 70% of Scots tax is still going south to Westminster
		
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And 110% is coming back.   Not a bad trade!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			So "the vow" has been delivered then?
		
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Depends who you speak to!
As far as the SNP were concered Nae, Tory/Lab/Lib say Aye.
Three against one will always win.

85% of welfare spend and 71% of tax still controlled by Westminster.
Plus EVEL now threatening the stability of the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			None of the above have anything to do with the economic recession then according to your rewriting of recent history.
		
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I was lead to believe by the Tories that the economic recession was all Labour's doing.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was lead to believe by the Tories that the economic recession was all Labour's doing.
		
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Whoever was responsible for the recession the austerity that followed was the result, not a "Tory re-invention".

Most of the actions taken by Osborne would have had to have been taken by whoever was Chancellor following the 2010 General Election.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Depends who you speak to!
As far as the SNP were concered Nae, Tory/Lab/Lib say Aye.
Three against one will always win.

85% of welfare spend and 71% of tax still controlled by Westminster.
Plus EVEL now threatening the stability of the UK.
		
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This is what I am trying to get to. It seems to me that the SNP are just making trouble, as they do, but I don't have the knowledge to know for sure. I personally haven't paid much attention to "the vow" because, like the majority of "no" voters, my mind was made up long before. 

But now the SNP are agitating about it "not being delivered" etc. I'm just trying to understand whether the promises made in "the vow" have been or are in the process of being delivered, or if anything specific that was promised has subsequently been reneged upon?

There is a difference between complaining that the promises in "the vow" aren't what the SNP might have ideally wanted or that they have been reneged upon.


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## c1973 (Apr 20, 2015)

With a Â£7 Billion black hole in their full fiscal autonomy plan still left unexplained/ignored (delete as applicable) some of us might be happy Holyrood don't have control of the purse.......in fact, the majority of voters are it would seem. 

Much better they get some pocket money to buy votes with.........erm, I mean ruin coonsils with.....sorry, sorry, run coonsils with. 




Do we really need so many threads ending up arguing the toss about Scotland and the snp? 
Just saying.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 20, 2015)

c1973 said:



			With a Â£7 Billion black hole in their full fiscal autonomy plan still left unexplained/ignored (delete as applicable) some of us might be happy Holyrood don't have control of the purse.......in fact, the majority of voters are it would seem. 

Much better they get some pocket money to buy votes with.........erm, I mean ruin coonsils with.....sorry, sorry, run coonsils with. 




*Do we really need so many threads ending up arguing the toss about Scotland and the snp?* 
Just saying.
		
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I agree.  Nothing wrong with debating it (again) but it seems every political thread mostly degenerates into this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Exactky, better together. Not, see how well Scotland can do atvthe expense of the rest of the UK. For someone who says he is happy at the NO vote, you do come across very bitter. You realise part of being in the UK is pulling in the same direction, right? Hence why the SNP are extremely dangerous in the election. Any party that doesn't care how the remaining 3 countries fare (to the extent they appear sometimes to hope they do badly), should not have any say in national politics.
		
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Problem is - at the moment the SNP *do *have a say - and there is nothing unconstitutional or undemocratic (in the context of what might described as an undemocratic FPTP system) about that and what they might seek.  And all the SNP can actually do is state an opinion and seek to influence.  If they are ignored they cannot influence the detail of policy - only vote on whether they like it or not.  And what else would you expect them to do.

So to the Tories and Labour (especially) - don't whinge about the SNP - ignore them.  In government put forward policies that you believe the electorate (or at least that part that voted for you) believe and and will support.  And as far as the SNP - just say - hell mend 'em.  They will reap what they sow - and if they bring down a government - well then that is what you can get with our electoral system - but the SNP would have to answer to the Scottish electorate for doing so -0 and if it was a Labour government they brought  down that then resulted in a Tory one - well they would have some answering to do.

FWIW - I think the fuss that the Tories and the right wing press are making about the SNP is largely confected - political posturing and aimed simply at undermining the Labour Party.  If the SNP wipe the Labour Party in Scotland out then that will suit the Tories just fine and dandy.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			FWIW - I think the fuss that the Tories and the right wing press are making about the SNP is largely confected - political posturing and aimed simply at undermining the Labour Party.  If the SNP wipe the Labour Party in Scotland out then that will suit the Tories just fine and dandy.
		
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So the Conservative & *Unionist *Party should ignore the outpourings from another party whose stated objective is the dissolution of the Union.

Strange suggestion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			So the Conservative & *Unionist *Party should ignore the outpourings from another party whose stated objective is the dissolution of the Union.

Strange suggestion.
		
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At Westminster Yes - why not?  They have in the past.  Besides - what power has the SNP - a party with less than 10% of the MPs - actually got unless one of the larger parties go to it seeking support.  The SNP can say what they like but it's all bluster in Westminster - they only have power in Holyrood.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At Westminster Yes - why not?  They have in the past.  Besides - what power has the SNP - a party with less than 10% of the MPs - actually got unless one of the larger parties go to it seeking support.  The SNP can say what they like but it's all bluster in Westminster - they only have power in Holyrood.
		
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Well said sir........I find it hard to believe that England with umpteen hundred MP's feel threatened by around 45 Scots MP's.
The obvious solution is a Con/Lab coalition, why does no one propose this?  Because they all want to be in charge.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well said sir........I find it hard to believe that England with umpteen hundred MP's feel threatened by around 45 Scots MP's.
The obvious solution is a Con/Lab coalition, why does no one propose this?  Because they all want to be in charge.
		
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It is not a case of feeling threatened but rather it is about preserving the Union which is central to the Conservative Party's philosophy.

Should those of us who are pro-Europe ignore UKIP as they currently have only two Members of Parliament.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			It is not a case of feeling threatened but rather it is about preserving the Union which is central to the Conservative Party's philosophy.

Should those of us who are pro-Europe ignore UKIP as they currently have only two Members of Parliament.
		
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I think the Tory party would gladly see Scotland out of the Union, Cameron and Boris seem to be doing and saying plenty to make it happen.
Boris saying today that giving the SNP power was akin to putting King Herod in charge of the nursery. Nothing very friendly about that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Why the heck is there another thread about Scotland and independence ?!?

Have they just cancelled the result from last year and it's starting all over again ?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why the heck is there another thread about Scotland and independence ?!?

Have they just cancelled the result from last year and it's starting all over again ?
		
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Yes, I think they will be doing that.   Some people on here keep saying that the SNP are small and have no influence but they are saying that with cynical grins on their faces.   They know full well with a hung Parliament the SNP will be able to sit on the fence and jump down any side they want.  They have just said they will vote down the annual defence spending review if it  includes spending on Trident, now that will be like holding a knife to the UK's throat.   I am beginning to detest what the SNP are suggesting they will do and the worst part of it their nasty little game is to force people like me to want Scotland out of the UK.    It's below contempt, I just hope enough Scots see through this and knock a great big hole in the number of SNP MPs in the Election. :rant:


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the Tory party would gladly see Scotland out of the Union, Cameron and Boris seem to be doing and saying plenty to make it happen.
Boris saying today that giving the SNP power was akin to putting King Herod in charge of the nursery. Nothing very friendly about that.
		
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You *thinking *what the Conservative Party would like to see is pretty consistent with so many utterances from yourself in being long on opinions but very short on facts.

There is absolutely nothing to support your claim and Johnson's statement is entirely consistent for a prominent member of a pro-Union party. How can or, indeed, why should he be friendly towards a party whose stated aim and whole _raison d'etre _is the break up of that Union.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			You *thinking *what the Conservative Party would like to see is pretty consistent with so many utterances from yourself in being long on opinions but very short on facts.

There is absolutely nothing to support your claim and Johnson's statement is entirely consistent for a prominent member of a pro-Union party. How can or, indeed, why should he be friendly towards a party whose stated aim and whole _raison d'etre _is the break up of that Union.
		
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I don't think I am alone in my thoughts from this side of the Border.
Many Devo Max supporters think Cameron has made a right Horlicks of it.
Still nae worries, he will be History in a few weeks.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think I am alone in my thoughts from this side of the Border.
Many Devo Max supporters think Cameron has made a right Horlicks of it.
Still nae worries, he will be History in a few weeks.
		
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Opinions again!

Devo Max  just like EVEL was never on the ballot paper so I presume you mean No voters.

 As pointed out elsewhere the "vow", as you refer to it, would require rather more than six months for delivery. Hopefully your fellow Scots are more informed than you believe and appreciate that. 

But then maybe not.


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think I am alone in my thoughts from this side of the Border.
Many Devo Max supporters think Cameron has made a right Horlicks of it.
Still nae worries, he will be History in a few weeks.
		
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I don't think he's made a Horlicks of it at all. If all the powers demanded by the SNP are given there'd be holy hell this side of the wall, and a huge vote loser for whoever is in power in Westminster. All we seem to hear is "we want we want we want," even though the cupboard is pretty bare. 

Personally, I think the SNP are playing a fantastic game. The "we want" and then not getting it is being turned into a Westminster 'v' Scotland in the nastiest sort of way. Quite frankly the SNP tactics, which so many think are excellent, disgust me. I'd sooner vote Labour/UKIP/LibDem than vote for a party whose tactics are so decisive for the long term security of the UK.

As for Devo Max; either go your own way or shut up. But you've no balls to go your own way have you. You want to rob the best out of the UK whilst hiding behind its Treasury just in case the price of oil dips - oh forgot, that's exactly what happened. The SNP certainly got that right*(NOT), *but so many people can't see that and still think they are the second coming... laughable!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

The SNP's ultimate gain is to gain independence from UK and because the people of Scotland voted against independence they are now trying to drive a massive wedge between Scotland and the UK in the hope of another vote and a negative feeling from the rest of the UK and then the possibility of independence would be a reality for them - it's dirty shocking tactics that does threaten the future of the Union. 

It's time they actually listened to the majority of their people and accept they want to stay part of the UK


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2015)

If the Scots turn their back on Labour and elect the SNP into Westminster then they are justifying a break up of the UK IMO.  If thats what they really want then it would be best they get it ASAP so the rest of us can settle our minds to the fact and get on with making the best of what we have.     I didnt want this to happen but rather than Scotland playing nasty games with the security and economy of the UK to get their way I would choose them breaking away before too much resentment kicks in and the whole situation becomes unstable.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The SNP's ultimate gain is to gain independence from UK and because the people of Scotland voted against independence they are now trying to drive a massive wedge between Scotland and the UK in the hope of another vote and a negative feeling from the rest of the UK and then the possibility of independence would be a reality for them - it's dirty shocking tactics that does threaten the future of the Union. 

It's time they actually listened to the majority of their people and accept they want to stay part of the UK
		
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All the majority have to do is keep them out of Westminster if they disagree with their objectives.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			All the majority have to do is keep them out of Westminster if they disagree with their objectives.
		
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Absolutely.
If a few dozen SNP MP's are causing such mayhem in England why do they not push for a Lab/Con coalition.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Absolutely.
If a few dozen SNP MP's are causing such mayhem in England why do they not push for a *Lab/Con coalition.*

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Is every post going to suggest that now ?

It's as likely to happen as the SNP forgetting about independence


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

Well it may come as a blow to you but by definition the SNP are never going to forget about independence

...and Cameron warned by Forsyth (amongst others) that he is playing a very dangerous game bigging up the prospects of the SNP and at the same time vilifying them as likely to cause chaos and endless damage to the rUK.  Warning Cameron that that way lies a path to enabling the SNP to fulfil there raison d'etre

BTW loved some UKIP MEP yesterday when commenting on the SNP manifesto launch stating that '...all our taxes go to Scotland'  Love it!  I think I'd too be very upset with my fellow Scots were that the case.  But I think he just got a bit over-excited cos he was on the telly - bless his little stripey suit


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## MegaSteve (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's as likely to happen as the SNP forgetting about independence
		
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But, might not be as bad an outcome as it might seem...

Such, 'super' coalitions work elsewhere very well....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Absolutely.
If a few dozen SNP MP's are causing such mayhem in England why do they not push for a Lab/Con coalition.
		
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One of my Tory supporting mates suggested this - only half in jest


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			But, might not be as bad an outcome as it might seem...

Such, 'super' coalitions work elsewhere very well....
		
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I struggle to see the difference between the three main parties anyway - all act the same regardless of what they say. But can't ever see them joining together


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I struggle to see the difference between the three main parties anyway - all act the same regardless of what they say. But can't ever see them joining together
		
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I think there is quite a difference between the SNP and the Tory/Labour parties.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think there is quite a difference between the SNP and the Tory/Labour parties.
		
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Agreed.   The SNP want to break up the UK and the others don't.  Simples!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Agreed.   The SNP want to break up the UK and the others don't.  Simples!
		
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I disagree........at the moment I think it is a tie between the Tories and the SNP.

Looks like a Labour vote in England would be best for those who wish to keep the UK intact.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I disagree........at the moment I think it is a tie between the Tories and the SNP.

Looks like a Labour vote in England would be best for those who wish to keep the UK intact.
		
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That would lead to a Lab/SNP coalition, certain to protect the Union. (Not!)


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2015)

The SNP have it made really. They govern with no responsibility - every time something goes wrong they blame it on Westminister. What exactly happens in that very expensive building in Edinburgh that was paid for by the British tax payer.

The party that threw the doors open to the private sector so they could get into the NHS is now telling the RUK how it will help make things better for us all.

The problem with the electorate is they no longer trust their politicians so they are allowing a bunch of nationalist to drive the biggest wedge into the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			That would lead to a Lab/SNP coalition, certain to protect the Union. (Not!)
		
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Labour have refused to work with the SNP.
SNP do not want a coalition.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 21, 2015)

Are the Tories ENP ?

as a Coalminer they have done nowt for All four countries mines never mind England.
as a husband married to a nurse they have done nowt for the NHS either.

What they are is the cheapest going for whatever this country requires even if it is at the expense of British workers/ Joe Public.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Agreed.   The SNP want to break up the UK and the others don't.  Simples!
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			I disagree........at the moment I think it is a tie between the Tories and the SNP.

Looks like a Labour vote in England would be best for those who wish to keep the UK intact.
		
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Hahahahahahahahahaha, c'mon Doon that's not even subtle. A vote for Labour is a vote for the SNP. Labour won't get a working majority, but with the SNP's support will govern. Then the SNP will blackmail the Labour left, right and centre with their demands or they'll bring Labour down.

A vote for Labour will see the SNP gain more support as they blackmail Labour into forcing through more power for Scotland that will, ultimately, see the break up of the Union.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour have refused to work with the SNP.
SNP do not want a coalition.
		
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And I take it you still believe in Santa Claus!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahahahahahahaha, c'mon Doon that's not even subtle. A vote for Labour is a vote for the SNP. Labour won't get a working majority, but with the SNP's support will govern. Then the SNP will blackmail the Labour left, right and centre with their demands or they'll bring Labour down.

A vote for Labour will see the SNP gain more support as they blackmail Labour into forcing through more power for Scotland that will, ultimately, see the break up of the Union.
		
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Do you not think that Labour will be more honourable than the Tories and allow a sensible settlement of 'The Vow'.
Thus saving the UK

I really do think that the SNP and the Scots will settle for FFR. It makes sense to me and would also help England.

Trouble is both governments will have to work together to make it happen. 
Sadly at the mo with all the anti Scots stuff being driven by the Tories and the 90% backed Tory media I can't see that happen.

It would be political suicide for the SNP to enter a formal Coalition with either of the two [now] English parties.
Perhaps that is not so well known south of Preston.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you not think that Labour will be more honourable than the Tories and allow a sensible settlement of 'The Vow'.
Thus saving the UK
		
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Pathetic, naive, gullible. Choose your own.

Labour would be no more honourable than any other party. Any settlement of the so called vow would only be made if it were to assure them (Labour) of power at Westminster.

The anti Scots stuff to which you refer is only actually directed at the separatists and not Scotland or the Scottish people in general and is not propagated by all the media.

In turn the media is not and nowhere near 90% backed by the Conservatives nor is the media's support so much in favour of that party.

You should try to become better informed about politics "south of Preston", after all you are quick to criticise any English forumers who may comment on issues North of the Border.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2015)

The anti Scotland, I don't use Scots because those who speak for the SNP appear to be middle/upper class activist and RUK seem to have huge ex pat population of true Scots, is being generated by the likes of the SNP and those within the SNP who continue to prove they have no interest in Democracy and the wishes of the majority of those living in Scotland.

A very small minority on here and the leader of the SNP need to accept that Scotland wish to remain part of the UK and work towards an all inclusive better UK and not continue with there me me me attitude. Life in Scotland is no worse than the rest of UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Pathetic, naive, gullible. Choose your own.

Labour would be no more honourable than any other party. Any settlement of the so called vow would only be made if it were to assure them (Labour) of power at Westminster.

The anti Scots stuff to which you refer is only actually directed at the separatists and not Scotland or the Scottish people in general and is not propagated by all the media.

In turn the media is not and nowhere near 90% backed by the Conservatives nor is the media's support so much in favour of that party.

You should try to become better informed about politics "south of Preston", after all you are quick to criticise any English forumers who may comment on issues North of the Border.
		
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Before you start name calling you should re-read what you have just posted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Pathetic, naive, gullible. Choose your own.
		
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What's this all about?  Someone expresses an opinion and you spout this!  Pretty insulting and I'd say unacceptable language.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			The anti Scotland, I don't use Scots because those who speak for the SNP appear to be middle/upper class activist and RUK seem to have huge ex pat population of true Scots, is being generated by the likes of the SNP and those within the SNP who continue to prove they have no interest in Democracy and the wishes of the majority of those living in Scotland.

A very small minority on here and the leader of the SNP need to accept that Scotland wish to remain part of the UK and work towards an all inclusive better UK and not continue with there me me me attitude. Life in Scotland is no worse than the rest of UK.
		
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Well the majority of the Scottish electorate who want to be part of the UK need to get off their backsides - get their act together - and vote for 'other than the SNP'.  Because at the moment the SNP are getting free hits and the only folk who can stop the SNP is that electorate.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Before you start name calling you should re-read what you have just posted.
		
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If having your opinion so described is name calling then we clearly are miles apart.

You are, of course, fully entitled to express your opinions and I would always defend your right so to do even when it sometimes seems that you may be attempting to provoke. However, I am equally at liberty to describe those opinions in the terms used.

I have not, unlike some, resorted to any derogatory name calling or personal attacks and never would do so.

Perhaps if you are so protective of your views it might be better not to air them on a public forum.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well the majority of the Scottish electorate who want to be part of the UK need to get off their backsides - get their act together - and vote for 'other than the SNP'.  Because at the moment the SNP are getting free hits and the only folk who can stop the SNP is that electorate.
		
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The electorate are fed up with our current bunch of politicians and have been handed the opportunity to throw a hand grenade into the system. I think this year we will see a high turn out and the grenade thrown. The next term will most probably run for about a year and the political class will realise they need to step up to the plate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			The electorate are fed up with our current bunch of politicians and have been handed the opportunity to throw a hand grenade into the system. I think this year we will see a high turn out and the grenade thrown. The next term will most probably run for about a year and the political class will realise they need to step up to the plate.
		
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Is that the 'two party' system you refer to ?

As I keep saying and so far only Mickey has listened. 
If England has gone into such a meltdown because of a few dozen Scots MP's why do the two majority parties not form a coalition.

 59 Scots seats
591 Non Scots

Simple maths.

I do agree that the current bunch of two party politicians are desperately poor.

At election time I usually ask myself what would happen if the party leader fell under his tour bus.
Scary picture, especially the Tory one.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At election time I usually ask myself what would happen if the party leader fell under his tour bus.
		
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Don't know why they bother with a tour bus anymore...
They don't actually go and meet any 'real' people just a chosen few...

Must be to avoid any egg throwers...


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At election time I usually ask myself what would happen if the party leader fell under his tour bus.
Scary picture, especially the Tory one.
		
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Might improve the prospects of some parties....


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 22, 2015)

Politics in The UK is skewed so beyond parody it's hilarious.

About 33% of voters vote Tory
About 33% of voters vote Labour
About 5% of voters vote SNP
About 12% of voters vote UKIP
About 8% of voters will vote LibDem (not sure why)
About 5% of voters vote Green

the rest are made up in Wales/NI.

So 1/3 will vote either Tory or Labour and they'll govern our country for 5 years.But one of them could be propped up by a party with only 5% and not one vote outside Scotland.Personally, I'm enjoying that last aspect of it all, but can see it's lunatics running the asylum stuff. SNP will have the same % share as The Greens but 2500% more seats!

I think the only credible way for The UK to be saved from some kind of revolution if The SNP prop up Labour is for voting reform.But that will result in UKIP/Limpdem/Greens becoming very relevant and Labour/Tory losing absolute power.And the problem is, only th etwo main parties can bring about voting change.

So, will they take power away from themselves to deliver a more democratic govt and make SNP irrelevant, or cling onto power and be the cause of whats to come?


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 22, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			So, will they take power away from themselves to deliver a more democratic govt and make SNP irrelevant, or cling onto power and be the cause of whats to come?
		
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I presume that's a rhetorical question!?


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 22, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I presume that's a rhetorical question!? 

Click to expand...

Ha! 

They have to decide: do they love themselves more than they hate the SNP? I honestly think they'd struggle to answer that.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 22, 2015)

Many political pundits/commentators believe this could prove to be that last FPTP general election...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Many political pundits/commentators believe this could prove to be that last FPTP general election...
		
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Only almost exactly four years since we had a referendum on FPTP vs AV - the people spoke and the *vast* majority 68% to 32% voted against it moving from FPTP.  Has something changed that means that another referendum should be held?  68 to 32 seems pretty darned conclusive.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only almost exactly four years since we had a referendum on FPTP vs AV - the people spoke and the *vast* majority 68% to 32% voted against it moving from FPTP.  Has something changed that means that another referendum should be held?  68 to 32 seems pretty darned conclusive.
		
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People aren't asking for AV, but for PR 

I see what you did there though, very clever


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only almost exactly four years since we had a referendum on FPTP vs AV - the people spoke and the *vast* majority 68% to 32% voted against it moving from FPTP.  *Has something changed* that means that another referendum should be held?  68 to 32 seems pretty darned conclusive.
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Politics in The UK is skewed so beyond parody it's hilarious.

About 33% of voters vote Tory
About 33% of voters vote Labour
About 5% of voters vote SNP
About 12% of voters vote UKIP
About 8% of voters will vote LibDem (not sure why)
About 5% of voters vote Green

the rest are made up in Wales/NI.

So 1/3 will vote either Tory or Labour and they'll govern our country for 5 years.But one of them could be propped up by a party with only 5% and not one vote outside Scotland.Personally, I'm enjoying that last aspect of it all, but can see it's lunatics running the asylum stuff. SNP will have the same % share as The Greens but 2500% more seats!

I think the only credible way for The UK to be saved from some kind of revolution if The SNP prop up Labour is for voting reform.But that will result in UKIP/Limpdem/Greens becoming very relevant and Labour/Tory losing absolute power.And the problem is, only th etwo main parties can bring about voting change.

So, will they take power away from themselves to deliver a more democratic govt and make SNP irrelevant, or cling onto power and be the cause of whats to come?
		
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Good post.......the system is utter bonkers but the two 'main' parties cling to it as it keeps them in power and 'those not like us' out.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 22, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good post.......the system is utter bonkers but the two 'main' parties cling to it as it keeps them in power and 'those not like us' out.
		
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I am not contrary and can, therefore, wholeheartedly agree with you.

As I see it there is, at present, no will on the part of either of the two largest parties to engineer any change in the current FPTP system.

Each seems happy to accept "Buggins turn" and accept that they will get their go and after a few years the other lot will get a go.

And then we have the nerve to preach to developing countries the virtues of democracy!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



View attachment 15079

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Adi ....You are too sharp for the knife box:lol:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			I am not contrary and can, therefore, wholeheartedly agree with you.

As I see it there is, at present, no will on the part of either of the two largest parties to engineer any change in the current FPTP system.

Each seems happy to accept "Buggins turn" and accept that they will get their go and after a few years the other lot will get a go.

And then we have the nerve to preach to developing countries the virtues of democracy!
		
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Problem of course for them Mickie is that they may no longer get their turn - some have it that majority governments may now be a thing of the past.  But who knows. I'd tend to agree with you that the BIG two will take their chances that somehow what was, will become again, and the last government and probably the next will see the rise and fall of coalition government.  Maybe they can wish.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2015)

I think the demise of Labour and Tories in Scotland is a game changer.
If FPTP is retained neither of the 'big two' is likely to gain power again without the support of the 'progressive nationals and greens' 
Lib Dems have to position themselves VERY carefully. 
Ignore the Greens at your peril.

The times they are a'changing.


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			And then we have the nerve to preach to developing countries the virtues of democracy!
		
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If you delete the developing bit, you could say that's what David Cameron did with Scotland. Scotland was told when they had to have their referendum but he's dodged the wishes of many over the EU referendum.

That said, in an effort to try and give one of the big two a working majority I'll be voting for one of them, even though I pretty much detest both parties.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Problem of course for them Mickie is that they may no longer get their turn - some have it that majority governments may now be a thing of the past.  But who knows. I'd tend to agree with you that the BIG two will take their chances that somehow what was, will become again, and the last government and probably the next will see the rise and fall of coalition government.  Maybe they can wish.
		
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I certainly wouldn't have any issues with the BIG TWO having to enter into coalitions (either formal or informal) in the future.

My concerns over the future of the Union notwithstanding, if the ultimate outcome was a more accurate reflection of the wishes of the people in their representatives it would be the realisation of a political dream that I have had since first taking an interest nearly 50 years ago.

However, I remain sufficiently sceptical to fear that it may take much longer to achieve than we would like.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2015)

And so it came to pass - the Tories publish their English manifesto.  Desperate divisive stuff.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so it came to pass - the Tories publish their English manifesto.  Desperate divisive stuff.
		
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Whatever happened to Wales and NI, are they not better together or are the too wee to count.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 25, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Whatever happened to Wales and NI, are they not better together or are the too wee to count.
		
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You two are the embodiment of bitterness towards the English


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2015)

Dodged my question I see.

Re bitterness......As you do not read any newspapers I can perhaps understand where you are coming from.
When it comes to bitterness I don't think we can reach a candle far less hold one to some of the headlines we have seen in the English press in the last month.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so it came to pass - the Tories publish their English manifesto.  Desperate divisive stuff.
		
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Well, I've just read it through and think it by far the best manifesto to date. Just goes to show how subjective politics is. Recent weeks have convinced me I'll be voting blue for the first time in 20 odd years.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 25, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Dodged my question I see.

Re bitterness......As you do not read any newspapers I can perhaps understand where you are coming from.
When it comes to bitterness I don't think we can reach a candle far less hold one to some of the headlines we have seen in the English press in the last month.
		
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Learning very well from you in terms of dodging questions

No one has ever said NI or Wales don't count and both have parties that have manifestos that look after their own country - just as SNP 


Yet when a party then announces a manifesto that allows English MP to be able to look after English interests only the pitch forks appears


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Learning very well from you in terms of dodging questions

No one has ever said NI or Wales don't count and both have parties that have manifestos that look after their own country - just as SNP 


Yet when a party then announces a manifesto that allows English MP to be able to look after English interests only the pitch forks appears
		
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I do believe that Wales and NI have no income tax raising powers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-24987334
Where does that leave them?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 25, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do believe that Wales and NI have no income tax raising powers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-24987334
Where does that leave them?
		
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Leaves them where they want to be - part of the UK


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Leaves them where they want to be - part of the UK
		
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In which case should not the English income tax rate not be the UK [less Scotland] tax rate


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 25, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In which case should not the English income tax rate not be the UK [less Scotland] tax rate
		
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Is that not how it is right now ?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 25, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In which case should not the English income tax rate not be the UK [less Scotland] tax rate
		
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Personally all of this malarkey is exactly why Scotland didn't need their own income tax raising powers. It just brings so much more hassle for everyone. We're all in the UK, should all be the same.


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2015)

SCotland have had the power to raise and lower some taxes for a time now and have not done anything. Perhaps they think it might be a vote loser or perhaps a little worried that they won't have someone to blame when it all goes wrong.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			SCotland have had the power to *raise* and lower some taxes for a time now and have not done anything. Perhaps they think it might be a vote loser or perhaps a little worried that they won't have someone to blame when it all goes wrong.
		
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Oh, they definitely raise them. I was in a meeting with some of my work colleagues from up there last week... Council Tax 2-3 times more expensive. Each to their own, and I think free prescriptions etc is admirable but *ouch!*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Oh, they definitely raise them. I was in a meeting with some of my work colleagues from up there last week... Council Tax 2-3 times more expensive. Each to their own, and I think free prescriptions etc is admirable but *ouch!*

Click to expand...

2-3 times more expensive than where?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Oh, they definitely raise them. I was in a meeting with some of my work colleagues from up there last week... Council Tax 2-3 times more expensive. Each to their own, and I think free prescriptions etc is admirable but *ouch!*

Click to expand...

We were talking about Income Tax.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			2-3 times more expensive than where?
		
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Than the expensive Labour council where I live.



Doon frae Troon said:



			We were talking about Income Tax.
		
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I'm sure you're pleased to pay significantly higher council tax. Good old SNP eh?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Than the expensive Labour council where I live.



I'm sure you're pleased to pay significantly higher council tax. Good old SNP eh?
		
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Council tax in Scotland includes water rates.


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Council tax in Scotland includes water rates.
		
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I know. I factored that in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2015)

I pay just over Â£1600. Looking at the bands for Glasgow and my house would have to be in band F for me to pay (Â£1752) about same as I do for mine in Surrey band D. Band F I'd be paying Â£2400 (just so happens to be what you pay top band - band H in Glasgow.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I know. I factored that in.
		
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And...do you still stand by your earlier statement?

Ayrshire Coast v Yorkshire coast is cheaper in Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2015)

I can guarantee that a Glasgow band H will be significantly more opulent than a Surrey band F- and the owners will pay the same


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2015)

Hobbit, the Council Tax in Scotland has not increased since 2008.
Are you getting your information from Grant Shapps?


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hobbit, the Council Tax in Scotland has not increased since 2008.
Are you getting your information from Grant Shapps?
		
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As per my original post, from colleagues who live in Scotland. One has a two bed flat in Aberdeen(Â£1600), and the other a 3 bed detatched(Â£3000). I pay less than Â£1500, inc. water rates, in a high council tax Labour ward in Cleveland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2015)

Is that not a little bit like comparing Chelsea and Govan.:lol:


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is that not a little bit like comparing Chelsea and Govan.:lol:
		
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Or not unlike the comparisons you were making in the referendum thread...?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2015)

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-wild-weekend/

Balanced headlines in Scotland's press used to firm up SNP votes.


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## Ethan (Apr 27, 2015)

No surprise. The rabid press is pretty firmly opposed to anything even remotely left wing, so they hate the SNP even more than Labour. I suppose their non-dom owners (Mail, Torygraph) have some additional issues these days now that Ed is going to abolish non-com status, and they will have to pay taxes just like they demand the peasants do.

It is amazing that so many people still think the print press is there to communicate news and balanced opinion. It really isn't. Best to ignore the whole lot. 

They are also totally hypocritical. Compare and contrast coverage of the SNP in The Scottish Sun with the version south of the border.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2015)

Woops The Tory's friends are supporting the SNP now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...is-losing-our-support-over-scotland-warns-dup


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## MegaSteve (Apr 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-wild-weekend/

Balanced headlines in Scotland's press used to firm up SNP votes.
		
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I am with Fiona ...


Though I do wonder what political comment Andrew Lloyd-Webber might be relevant to vast majority of voters...


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 27, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			As per my original post, from colleagues who live in Scotland. One has a two bed flat in Aberdeen(Â£1600), and the other a 3 bed detatched(Â£3000). I pay less than Â£1500, inc. water rates, in a high council tax Labour ward in Cleveland.
		
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Just to make sure I'm not getting this wrong, you are comparing Cleveland with Aberdeen?!


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## Ethan (Apr 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Woops The Tory's friends are supporting the SNP now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...is-losing-our-support-over-scotland-warns-dup

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Shows how far wrong the Tories have gone when the DUP is speaking out. Still, the DUP want to shore up the union (albeit a version on their terms) so they can't really support fragmentation elsewhere.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Shows how far wrong the Tories have gone when the DUP is speaking out. Still, the DUP want to shore up the union (albeit a version on their terms) so they can't really support fragmentation elsewhere.
		
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Good to see them pointing out how unworkable EVEL is within a UK parliament.

Cameron, Shapp and the Ossie guy have still to work out that if you use scare tactics against the Scots you can only do it once.
Very few will fall for it second time around.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			I am with Fiona ...


Though I do wonder what political comment Andrew Lloyd-Webber might be relevant to vast majority of voters...
		
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What I really want to know is....




Did you get the free chicken voucher?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 27, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What I really want to know is....




Did you get the free chicken voucher?
		
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Thought it was only the retired that took The Mail and shopped at M&S...
Not quite there yet...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 27, 2015)

Hilarious as the Mail is it is The Sun that gives the most fun.

The editors of the English Sun and the Scottish Sun do not seem to know that we have the interweb up here now.


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## Andy808 (Apr 28, 2015)

I really do have to get some more popcorn in for the next week of reading this thread. 

Simple fact is if the Tories win we will be skint for another 5 years. 
If Labour win we will have some spare money for the next 5 years and then be skint for another 15! 
It's a lose lose situation especially as either will have to have a second party to get them across the line and will be held to ransom by them.


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