# Let the buyer beware!!!!!



## woody8 (Apr 22, 2009)

Last year I purchased a set of TaylorMade Burner xd irons. I was improving and so decided to treat myself. I settled on these because TaylorMade are supposed to be one of the foremost manufacturers of golf equipment. I made my purchase from onlinegolf, whom Iâ€™d bought goods from before. Due to some distance issues my professional (using precision equipment - he is an authorised custom-fitter for Titleist, Ping and Cobra), measured the loft and lie angle on my clubs. He found a total of 11 discrepancies when compared with the specs on TaylorMade's website.


So what does this mean?
Manufacturers tolerances: Whilst you will not find any information pertaining to this on any manufacturers or sellers websites - apparently there is no manufacturer on this planet that can consistently create a set of clubs with all clubs perfect and always on spec. In fact, if you ask the manufacturers they will say that their manufacturing tolerance at their foundry is +/- 1 degree (worst case). So let's say that the 3 iron had 22 degrees loft instead of 21 degrees, and the 4 iron was 23 degrees instead of 24, clearly there is only 1 degree of separation between the clubs. What this means is that with a 80mph swing, the difference is 2 yards.

Lie angle: A lie angle that is "only" one degree off will leave a mark that is 1/4" off-centre on the sole of the club. On a shot of 150 yards, perhaps a 7-iron, a 1/4" off-centre lie angle will result in a shot that is four yards off line. And that was only one degree. As a very approximate rule of thumb, a lie angle that is 1 degree off = 3-4 yards offline.

Is this fair? Bearing in mind there is no mention on either website of these 'degrees of tolerance' ,I feel the companies are misrepresenting the goods they are selling. Surely they should inform customers that their club specifications are only guidelines and that inaccuracies happen regularly. Apparently, if these discrepancies are inherent in the entire set, itâ€™s down to hard luck. As you can see from the information above, these so called minor discrepancies can, in actual fact, account for some fairly major discrepancies out on the course.

I paid Â£499.99 for my TaylorMadeâ€™s, which is at the top end of the market. I expected to receive top class engineering for my money. In fact, had I known about these errors prior to making my purchase, I would have had a set of Titleist clubs custom made for about the same price.


So what happened? Clearly the goods were not fit for purpose made known, in accordance with the Sale of Goods Act 1979, and bearing the above information in mind, felt that a replacement/repair set was not unreasonable. I contacted the seller as it was their responsibility to resolve any issues. They asked me to sendd the clubs to them.

As a matter of courtesy and for completeness, I also contacted TaylorMade. Their advisor told me that the clubs were not as they should be and they would sort the problem out. Around about 2 weeks later, I received an e-mail from onlinegolf, informing me that TaylorMade had reviewed the clubs and had concluded that the clubs were within acceptable levels.

Surely, the companies involved are misrepresenting the goods they are selling and that the sales descriptions they are giving are misleading. In order to fully protect customers so they can make an informed decision, there should be a warning. As stated, the faults are from the manufacturing process, so I feel that they are not fit for purpose made known. 

The trouble is, I'm currently in limbo. I will fight for my rights and see what happens. SW golf who own onlinegolf (and apparently Nevada Bob's) owe me a decent service.


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## Twire (Apr 22, 2009)

You mention the lie and loft angles and what effect they have on the ball accuracy (I wish I was good enough to hit my ball within 5 yards length and 4 yards direction) You also mention your pro found 11 discrepencies, but what you fail to mention is what the discrepencies were. All manufacturing has to have some sort of tollerance to work to and if TM said they fell within that tollerance band then they should be ok for most golfers.

If your chasing a few yards here and a few yards there, then I would have thought you would have gone down the custom fit route straight away.


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## brendy (Apr 22, 2009)

Hi and welcome Woody, thats a hell of a first post without even introducing yourself first. Everything on this earth which is manufactured comes with production tolerances, even NASA would concede the odd millionth of an inch here and there.
For what its worth Â£499 is 2nd year pricing, not top end. Check out the price of brand new releases and you'll find they are almost twice that, titleist for example, their AP2 irons were 850 for a standard setup never mind having them custom fitted.


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## woody8 (Apr 22, 2009)

Hi guys

Thanks for your replies.

I appreciate what you say about tolerances, but I genuinely think that if there could be a discrepancy, there should be a disclaimer somewhere on the specifications page of the manufacturer so that a buyer can make an informed decision.

I'm not a great golfer by any means (I am a competent one working hard every day to get better). Every iron in the set was out by 1 degree in some form or another. The 4 and 5 iron had 1 degree difference in loft and so this equated to about 2 yards in length on well struck shots. So why even bother carrying them both? The next club (6 iron) then had 4.5 degrees from the 5 iron. 

My argument is far from being a good golfer who can pinpoint shots down to a nailed-on distance, I need all the help I can. These irons simply make a difficult game even more so. I've been at pains to work out why my 8 iron only goes about 125, whilst my 7 iron goes 150 etc. Now I know.

I paid Â£500 for the irons. Maybe I'm a bit naive thinking that the engineering that goes into manufacturing a golf club is accurate? If there had been something warning me of potential discrepancies, I definitely would have bought some custom-fit ones for the same money.

I'm not a whinger, and I never look for trouble. I could understand the odd discrepancy (after all I'm not Tiger Woods), but my pro doesn't think it's acceptable either and that's good enough for me.


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## Twire (Apr 22, 2009)

Hey woody, I can see your dissapointed with your choice and the discepences found by your pro, but just from a manufacturing point of view (I've been in manufacturing for 30years) when was the last time your pro had his equipment calabrated? How was he checking them? Is he geared up to check TM? I ask these questions from the experience of sending parts out to customers, for them to come back and say this is wrong thats wrong, then I asked how they were checked, and that was the problem.

The manufacturing process for high volume castings, would mean every number iron would be tooled up. This makes it difficult (but not imposible) for the casting to be outside specific TM tollerances. So what I'm trying to say is for instance if your 7 iron is 3-4 degrees out then every 7 seven iron in that series should be the same 3-4 degrees out. Exceptions to the rule would be a poor casting (cavity not filling when cast, this would be very visable) or bad post cast machining, again this would be difficult to do (but not imposible) as they would be fixtured up. In these cases TM would be able to spot this when they checked your clubs.


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## USER1999 (Apr 22, 2009)

More than anything else it would be the tolerances involved in drilling the hozel to take the shaft. I would guess +/- 1 degree is not unusual. Even if you buy custom fitted clubs, unless they are made by a recommended local custom club maker, I doubt the manufacturers would guarantee any better than +/- 1 degree. Out of interest, the swing weight will also be all over the place, as will the shaft flex, unless they have been matched and pured. Unlikely.

Normally (especially with forged clubs) you should get your lie and loft angles checked once a year, as they do change with use. This is not that expensive, and in your position, I would get the clubs back, and just get them adjusted by your pro. I know you will feel out of pocket on it, but you will know they are correct. If you eventually get AG or TM to do it, you will still want your pro to check them, at which point he might as well adjust them.

I often hit my 5 and 4 irons similar distance. I get better consistency with the 5. I also doubt if I ever get the same launch angle, as it depends how much I hit down on the ball. The main difference will come from the shaft length, which you have ignored. Two irons of the same loft will go different distances if the shafts are different.

I doubt Titleist irons are made any more accurately than TM, Nike, Cally etc.

The best way of ensuring consistency through the set is to not buy mass produced clubs by the major manufacturers, and buy through a local club maker who knows his stuff, and uses heads from Golfsmith or Orka or similar, and then constructs each one, lovingly himself.

Whether thisis necessary for the average Joe, well, it depends on you.

Once you start looking at these things, you open a can of worms.


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## woody8 (Apr 22, 2009)

My professional is very highly respected in the area where I come from - he has coached County and National players on a regular basis, is a custom-fit specialist for Titleist, Ping and Cobra, is absolutely nuts about anything to do with golf and above all has no vested interest in this other than as a friend. He assures me that he regularly calibrates his equipment and I trust him implicitly.

Now I am aware of tolerances (and it never occured to me there would need to be in golf equipment - as you say 100's are made from the same cast) I accept them. What I don't accept is that I or any other layman should automatically be aware of them. If they are giving specifications in their official information, I think there should be a footnote if this is a guideline only. I accept that having custom made clubs does not guarantee they will all be spot-on, but in my set, only the 8 iron is as it should be - the rest are irregular in some way or another.

With regards to the others in this batch having the same fault if it exists - maybe they do, but people just don't know it?!?

I am grateful for all input received. Thanks.


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## RGDave (Apr 22, 2009)

Welcome woody8.

I feel for you and appreciate your position.

I say look on the bright side. You saved a bundle of the old full price and if you invest a small amount in having your clubs C/F or checked over, you'll still have a good set.

I have always bought used clubs until recently and consider getting the lofts and lies checked as an expected additional cost. 

I think it's fair to expect a new set to be pretty darn close to the exact specs, but a degree or two here or there isn't really such a hassle; if it matters a lot, then just get an expert to give 'em the full works.

Like I said, I do appreciate where you are coming from. I had my new MacGregors checked recently (after a 7 iron fiasco) and they were spot on to within 1/2 degree.


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## Parmo (Apr 22, 2009)

Woody, how much is your Pro offering to correct these tolerances for? I ask just out of interest.  My clubs prob have tolerances but I know by feel what my distances are at the moment (winter is another kettle of fish), but as any weather changes on the course so does the game and anything within degrees really isnt going to make much difference, though I accept a small peice of knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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## thecraw (Apr 23, 2009)

Most clubs can only be altered by a max of 2 degrees either way before you start puting strain on the cast/forged metal.


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## Parmo (Apr 23, 2009)

Most clubs can only be altered by a max of 2 degrees either way before you start puting strain on the cast/forged metal.
		
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Totally agree, I had my forged 52* Srixon changed to a 50* after buying the FP's due to a huge gap.

After thinking about this last night after posting I can not see how a degree here and there is going to make a difference to anyone cat2 and above.


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## woody8 (Apr 23, 2009)

My professional is not offering to alter my clubs. He doesn't think cast irons should be altered in this way, and he's not trying to sell me new ones either - he thinks the responsibility lies with others and they should sort the problem out. So there's absolutely nothing in it for him whatsoever.

Degrees of lie and loft do make a difference. I have a Sonocaddie and so went out and worked out my yardages with it. This led to the discovery of the problems.

I found that:
My 4 iron, which has a loft of 21 degrees (as it should), travelled about 185 yards.
My 5 iron which has a loft of 22 degrees (this should be 23 degrees), travelled 180 yards.
My 6 iron, which has a loft of 26.5 degrees (this should be 26 degrees), travelled about 158 yards.
My 7 iron which has a loft of 29 degrees (this should be 30 degrees), travelled about 153 yards.
My 8 iron which has a loft of 34 degrees (as it should), travelled about 128 yards.
My 9 iron which has a loft of 38.5 degrees (this should be 39 degrees), travelled about 120 yards.
My PW iron which has a loft of 44 degrees (as it should), travelled about 100 yards.
My SW iron which has a loft of 53 degrees (this should be 54 degrees), travelled about 70 yards.

Now add to this fact that the lie angles on the 4,5,6,9, PW and SW were too upright (many by up to a degree), which lends to me the tendency to fire left of the target slightly and you can see a large variance. I feel there are too many in one set.

Now then, if you were looking to buy a set of clubs and looked at the specs and stats of my clubs, would you purchase them? I wouldn't, and that's my point. 

For further information, TaylorMade are still arguing the toss and because of the potential repercussions to them, I can understand why. From one advisor to the next, they can't give a straight answer on what is an acceptable level of tolerance to them (I've been quoted 0.5, 0.9 and 1 in one telephone conversation!).

However, onlinegolf have become far more amenable and have dealt with me in a fair manner. Both sides are now satisfied.

P.S. Thanks for the welcome   .


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## RGDave (Apr 23, 2009)

My 6 iron, which has a loft of 26.5 degrees (this should be 26 degrees), travelled about 158 yards.
My 7 iron which has a loft of 29 degrees (this should be 30 degrees), travelled about 153 yards.
My 8 iron which has a loft of 34 degrees (as it should), travelled about 128 yards.
My 9 iron which has a loft of 38.5 degrees (this should be 39 degrees), travelled about 120 yards.
My PW iron which has a loft of 44 degrees (as it should), travelled about 100 yards.
My SW iron which has a loft of 53 degrees (this should be 54 degrees), travelled about 70 yards.
		
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woody8, you haven't given us much idea of your standard.

Having read this, I'm actually a little worried about your consistency and the amount of time/balls you spent measuring out these averages. 25 yards between 7 and 8? even with the correct loft on your 7 that's too much.....
53 degree SW goes 70 yards?......most folk get 80 yards out of a regular 56 degree....

I'm not trying to mess with your head, I just wonder if you've given these clubs a long enough go. How many balls?

I could read either 115 or 130 into a 9 iron, but I know where the answer lies t.b.h. You/we could make the figures stack up any way you/we want......

I hope you understand what I'm saying......185 yards off a 5 iron, 100 off a 44 degree PW, 70 of a low-loft SW.....it's bonkers.....


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## Twire (Apr 24, 2009)

Woody, Iâ€™ve just digested all that information, and canâ€™t find any club thatâ€™s more than 1 degree out. I would imagine that to be acceptable to 99% of golfersâ€¦. Iâ€™ll explain. I get approximately 10 yards between my clubs, and as a yardstick my 7 iron I hit 150ish my 8 iron 140 etc. Now the difference in loft angle between my 7 and 8 iron is 4 degreeâ€™s that equates to 2.5 yards per degree of loft, and thatâ€™s not even taking into account the difference in shaft length which would make the yardage margin even shorter. With that theory through the whole range of your clubs you shouldnâ€™t be more than 2.5 yards out, and even if you double the error, say 1 clubs plus 1 deg, and the next minus 1 deg, that should still only equate to 5 yards max. If I could hit all my clubs within 5 yards of expected length Iâ€™d be a very happy man.

Personally I donâ€™t think the 25 yards between your 7 and 8 iron is down to 1 degree difference in loft or lie, I think you need to look somewhere else.


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## woody8 (Apr 24, 2009)

Chaps, I'm grateful for your input and understand what you're saying to me. 

Firstly let me apologise the 8 iron going 128... not sure what I was thinking there... should have said 133. No idea where 128 came from   .

I'm not a great golfer (11 handicapper), but with all my previous clubs I've had a reasonable spread with the numbers.

I bought these irons last July, so you could say I've given them a fair chance. In all honesty, I've never spent the time being so exact - before I had my gps (trying to find ways to shave another shot off my handicap here or there). However, I was comfortable with what seems to be standard for most: roughly 150 yds 7 iron, 140 yds 8 iron. When I used the gps, I noticed some bigger gaps then I expected. My club has a range which is often very quiet - you can hit 20 balls with a club and go and collect them if you want to. With the gps, it was easy enough to work out the average (discarding the clearly anomalous results).

Had I not done this, perhaps I would have carried on in ignorant bliss. I don't know. But as I said in a previous post, KNOWING the clubs were set up as they were puts a different complexion on it. I wouldn't buy the clubs if I'd known what the exact specs of these clubs were beforehand. Maybe others would and that's a personal choice. I had a perfectly good set of Mizuno MX 19's previously but thought I'd treat myself to these which were quite pricey in my opinion. When I do that, I expect it to be exactly that - an upgrade (not just paying for the privelege of owning some TaylorMade's).

It's difficult to talk about the SW because I now have a 56 degree Vokey wedge which gives me a lower, more penetrating ball flight and so helps me achieve 80 yards - so figure that one out! I only included it for completeness.

It is interesting what you say about your loft angles, because I would expect the difference between each club to be more uniform (for example maybe 4 degree intervals with some minor variations on this pattern - see Titleist AP2's or Mizuno MP 52's). With these TaylorMade clubs the differences between clubs varies from 2, 3, 4 and 5 degrees (just take a look at the specs pages). I acknowledge thaat all this ends up getting quite confusing, but...

As I have already stated, onlinegolf, without acknowledging the problem have been very fair to me in resolving this issue (with some prodding on my part).

Maybe I'm too principled? I'm still puzzled by the general acceptance of the whole thing. Someone said to me, "Yeah, but you're not a pro are you, does it really matter?" I think the opposite way: if the pros have theirs set-up perfectly and they're a million times better than me, then I definitely need it, don't I? Others mention that even NASA have tolerances; well that's rocket science, we're talking about the head of a golf club, a piece of metal the size of your fist.

Shall we just agree to disagree and move on?


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## swingalongamax (Apr 24, 2009)

This inaccuracy is the secret that the big brands and the shops selling them don't want you to know. Try Reading Tom Wishon's book "The Right Sticks" to find out just how bad all of the major brands are. Have a look at the Wishon Golf or KZG web site to see how clubs can be manufactured when the money goes on design and production and not on marketing. If you want the best casting, best forgings and shafts that are actually the flex and length you expected then don't look at the big brands.

Remember of the Â£499 you paid Â£300 went to pay for Pro endorsements, advertising and marketing. The clubs are knocked up as cheaply as possible in a Chinese factory by someone who is paid 5p a day!

And don't be fooled by so called custom fitting of these major brands. Unless you have a real club maker build and set up each individual club to your spec with each shaft tested and matched to for frequency, you are still going to get a set of factory irons which are unlikely to be anywhere close to what was specified by the fitter.

People often have a set of 9 irons and may as well dump 6 of them because the manufacturing is so poor that the overlaps in tolerance of loft, flex and length, mean 2 or three irons will all hit the ball the same distance.

If you get your money back forget big name brands, go find a club maker (not a club fitter) who will fit you and build a set of MOI matched irons with frequency matched shafts (that are the right length) and with loft and lies set accurately for you. And you know what? It won't cost any more than a set of branded irons.


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## Parmo (Apr 24, 2009)

Great post, you lending me Â£1000 for a set of custom made irons? Sorry but if you want golf to grow, you can not have the best of both worlds.


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## RGDave (Apr 24, 2009)

People often have a set of 9 irons and may as well dump 6 of them because the manufacturing is so poor that the overlaps in tolerance of loft, flex and length, mean 2 or three irons will all hit the ball the same distance.
		
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This is where I've been going wrong. 

I've nearly always had my sets double-checked by a pro or fitter. The manufacturing is so poor that in many sets, I've only had the odd club a degree or two out. 

Sorry, but can't agree. None of the mass-produced stuff is perfect, but then again a few yards here and there with an inconsistent swing is OK for me....


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 24, 2009)

swingalong

Interesting post that I don't subscribe to especially not needing the majority of my irons. Out of interest, what qualifies you to make such a bold statement particularly about C/F. There are many on here that have C/F clubs and have been through a variety of sources (local pro, American Golf, the Belfry and specialist fittings at Ping, Mizuno, Cally fitting centres). Are you saying even though they went to these fitters their clubs are still wholly unsuited.


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## swingalongamax (Apr 24, 2009)

swingalong

Interesting post that I don't subscribe to especially not needing the majority of my irons. Out of interest, what qualifies you to make such a bold statement particularly about C/F. There are many on here that have C/F clubs and have been through a variety of sources (local pro, American Golf, the Belfry and specialist fittings at Ping, Mizuno, Cally fitting centres). Are you saying even though they went to these fitters their clubs are still wholly unsuited.
		
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So you go to one of those centres and they find the right spec for you, no problem there. Where do the clubs come from? The same Chinese factory with a worker on 5p an hour with the same tolerances the same variation in flex on shafts that are marked the same the same inaccuracies. So The fitting is not wrong but what is supplied probably is!


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## swingalongamax (Apr 24, 2009)

Great post, you lending me Â£1000 for a set of custom made irons? Sorry but if you want golf to grow, you can not have the best of both worlds.
		
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My bespoke forged irons 4-P (KZG) are the best forgings you can get, frequency matched shafts, MOI matched (makes the irons feel the same through the set, better than swing weight matching). Set up precisely for me. Cost Â£500. No marketing, no endorsements, no full page glossy ads, no paying off the golf mag to give a good review. Just great components built for me with care and attention to detail.


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## swingalongamax (Apr 24, 2009)

swingalong

I don't subscribe to especially not needing the majority of my irons.
		
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Oh You need them, but because the tolerances on loft, shaft length and shaft flex are so bad in most sets the overlap in tolerance makes two or more adjacent irons play the same. ie a 3 4 and 5 iron may actually produce the same distance for the same swing, instead of the expected 10yd distribution. Take that through the whole set of 9 irons and you may have 6 that become redundant due to this overlap in tolerance.


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## swingalongamax (Apr 24, 2009)

[
I've nearly always had my sets double-checked by a pro or fitter. The manufacturing is so poor that in many sets, I've only had the odd club a degree or two out. 

Sorry, but can't agree. None of the mass-produced stuff is perfect, but then again a few yards here and there with an inconsistent swing is OK for me....
		
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Did they check the shaft length? Did they test the club on a frequency tester to check the flex?

My previous set of Callaways (Fusion Â£900 worth) when tested had flexes ranging from slightly softer than Reg to a very soft senior flex even with my swing that makes a big difference.

I know of one brand new set of Pings supplied from the factory when tested had all of the shafts incorrectly trimmed from the tip when they were adjusted to length, so the the 3 iron was seniors flex and the 9 iron was xxx stiff!


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## RGDave (Apr 25, 2009)

I've nearly always had my sets double-checked by a pro or fitter. The manufacturing is so poor that in many sets, I've only had the odd club a degree or two out. 

Sorry, but can't agree. None of the mass-produced stuff is perfect, but then again a few yards here and there with an inconsistent swing is OK for me....
		
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			Did they check the shaft length? Did they test the club on a frequency tester to check the flex?

My previous set of Callaways (Fusion Â£900 worth) when tested had flexes ranging from slightly softer than Reg to a very soft senior flex even with my swing that makes a big difference.

I know of one brand new set of Pings supplied from the factory when tested had all of the shafts incorrectly trimmed from the tip when they were adjusted to length, so the the 3 iron was seniors flex and the 9 iron was xxx stiff!
		
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No, I didn't have the shafts checked. I doubt the results would be very good.

I'm interested to know (if anyone can help?) if there is a better level of consistency in steel shafts, and any particular make. My MacGregors were always a stop-gap, I went for them because I was more comfortable with the longer shafts and felt I got better distance from the graphite.
I tried all sorts that day and felt that these were as good for me as "Premium ticket" irons like TM and Callaway etc.
Now my swing is almost back to the days of old (a bit more slicey!!) I am REALLY keen to get a new set. I doubt I'll be anywhere near stiff rating, but would like to have an idea if there is any value in getting Rifles or Nippons or "something" over a True Temper or similar.

Top of the hit list a.t.m. is Callaway Diablo Forged, but I suspect the price will be way out of my range.

Sorry to hear about the Pings. If I didn't go for Cally or Mizuno, the i10s would be my cup of tea....


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 25, 2009)

swingalong

Its obviously something you feel pretty strongly on and that in itself is fine. However what I don't know or couldn't see is what qualifies you to talk with such accuracy about a) the manufacturing process, b) where your figures come through and how are they verified and c) what you know is wrong ot right for my game.

I'll help you with c)

I have gone out and measured a number of shots with all my clubs into and downwind (approximately 10mph) using an SC5 gps device. I have measured longest, shortest and taken a mean average, discounting any I hit fat, thin, sliced or hooked. Basically 10 per club that on a course would count as a decent shot at my level of playing

I'm afraid my numbers stack up pretty well.

4 iron 172
5 iron 161
6 iron 151 
7 iron 140
8 iron 131
9 iron 119
PW     104

There is a pretty consistant gap of between 9 and 15 yards per club. At my level that level of dispersion is pretty average and so I'm sorry but I think your argument has some flaws.


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## mono217 (Apr 26, 2009)

your completely right homer


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## woody8 (Apr 28, 2009)

Onlinegolf made me an offer that I won't disclose on here, but suffice to say I was happy with them. Through onlinegolf I upgraded to Titleist AP2's (obviously not made to measure). I like a softer and smaller (small hands) grip so took them to the same professional who had measured my TaylorMade's. He picked out 4 at random and measured them (he was so confident in Titleist's engineering) - every club was exactly as it should be.

I'm sure that discrepancies do happen, just not on the scale or frequency of my TaylorMade's. 

Only used them a couple of times, but the consitency is there: suddenly the 8 iron, 9 iron and PW are firing on all cylinders and landing where they should be. The same goes for the rest of the set. I'm happy.


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## DCB (May 3, 2009)

Thats some post for a situation thats all been dealt with by the retailer.

Oh the joys of buying clubs online.


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## M1tch (May 3, 2009)

4 iron 172
5 iron 161
6 iron 151 
7 iron 140
8 iron 131
9 iron 119
PW     104
		
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is that what you hit or is that just a normal person ?


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