# Ched Evans



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

So where does everyone sit in regards the issue with Ched Evans ?

It looks like Sheff UTD are possibly going to take him back on - so first question - should he be allowed to continue his career ? 

Reading though the story I'm still a bit confused as to why some evidence wasn't used or ignored and unless I have misread something the girl went to his hotel willingly and slept with him - pictures of her before and after and also going back to the room after they had slept together but was found that she was too drunk to make a coherent choice so Evans was found guilty ?

Evans is still pleading his innocence so has the media missed something as it appears that whilst they were both drunk and stupid that it doesn't appear to be something to be found guilty of rape ?


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## Val (Oct 17, 2014)

If he was a postman and was looking to go back to work would there be the same outcry?

I'm not condoning his actions but if he's done the time he should be allowed back to work if his employer will have him.


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## Duckster (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So where does everyone sit in regards the issue with Ched Evans ?

It looks like Sheff UTD are possibly going to take him back on - so first question - should he be allowed to continue his career ? 

Reading though the story I'm still a bit confused as to why some evidence wasn't used or ignored and unless I have misread something the girl went to his hotel willingly and slept with him - pictures of her before and after and also going back to the room after they had slept together but was found that she was too drunk to make a coherent choice so Evans was found guilty ?

Evans is still pleading his innocence so has the media missed something as it appears that whilst they were both drunk and stupid that it doesn't appear to be something to be found guilty of rape ?
		
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From what I've seen in the papers it appears to be a very borderline case (wonder how it would have gone if he was just a travelling salesman and not a footballer).  However, he was found guilty but he's now served his time so I can't see any issue with him carrying on with his profession.  Be that footballer, baker, candlestick maker....

Some people are going to take huge umbrage that he's allowed to earn money again and he's forever going to the target of opposition fans (and pos quite a lot of home ones).


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## Birchy (Oct 17, 2014)

Val said:



			If he was a postman and was looking to go back to work would there be the same outcry?

I'm not condoning his actions but if he's done the time he should be allowed back to work if his employer will have him.
		
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Agree with this. What the point in prison if it ends their life?

Might as well just throw them down a well instead or something.

From what ive read about the case it seems a very flimsy conviction although there is probably a lot of facts that we don't know.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

Anyone got a minute's thought for his victim? How she must feel with all the publicity about him just now? Or the impact if he was lauded in the media after scoring some crucial goal or whatever?

More surprising to me is that a convicted rapist who has never shown any remorse for his crime should be released so early. I think sex offenders who don't get treatment should serve every minute of their sentence.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Anyone got a minute's thought for his victim? How she must feel with all the publicity about him just now? Or the impact if he was lauded in the media after scoring some crucial goal or whatever?

More surprising to me is that a convicted rapist who has never shown any remorse for his crime should be released so early. I think sex offenders who don't get treatment should serve every minute of their sentence.
		
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Is that the same victim who was seen boasting about getting a new car from compensation or money from talking to the papers ?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that the same victim who was seen boasting about getting a new car from compensation or money from talking to the papers ?
		
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I know nothing about that but, yeah, lets start blaming the victim that tends to be how these things go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I know nothing about that but, yeah, lets start blaming the victim that tends to be how these things go.
		
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These things ?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			These things ?
		
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Discussions about rape, obviously.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Discussions about rape, obviously.
		
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I'm not looking to blame anyone 

The case seems very complicated with someone still protesting his innocence years down the line and from everything I have read so far feasibly shows it to be complicated with a very suspect conviction


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 17, 2014)

He should be able to return to his previous job as he has served his time. I was amazed at Nick Clegg yesterday as rehabilitation back into society is part of Liberal thinking.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2014)

Won't be surprised to see him back playing again. Luke McCormick the Plymouth keeper got sentenced to 7 years for killing two children while drink driving and he returned to the game. And Lee Hughes spent three years in prison for killing someone also while drink driving and came out to play again.

With the Ched Evans case both him and his mate admitted to having sex with the victim. His mate was found not guilty but Evans was found guilty. Obviously I don't know all the facts from the court case but I found that a really strange verdict.


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## Birchy (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Anyone got a minute's thought for his victim? How she must feel with all the publicity about him just now? Or the impact if he was lauded in the media after scoring some crucial goal or whatever?

More surprising to me is that a convicted rapist who has never shown any remorse for his crime should be released so early. I think sex offenders who don't get treatment should serve every minute of their sentence.
		
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If like he claims he is innocent then he wouldn't show remorse would he etc? Not saying that he is innocent though as I obviously don't know. 

So do you think he shoudn't be allowed back into his profession?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that the same victim who was seen boasting about getting a new car from compensation or money from talking to the papers ?
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm not looking to blame anyone
		
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I apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion then.


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## Val (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Anyone got a minute's thought for his victim? How she must feel with all the publicity about him just now? Or the impact if he was lauded in the media after scoring some crucial goal or whatever?

More surprising to me is that a convicted rapist who has never shown any remorse for his crime should be released so early. I think sex offenders who don't get treatment should serve every minute of their sentence.
		
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Different issue altogether. The guy is a professional footballer, is it right that because of his crime which was not linked to his profession then he should be stopped working?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

Birchy said:



			So do you think he shoudn't be allowed back into his profession?
		
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I think it too glib to put it like that. I agree that it shouldn't totally prevent someone from getting a job but there are plenty of professions where he wouldn't be able to work again e.g. lawyer.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Won't be surprised to see him back playing again. Luke McCormick the Plymouth keeper got sentenced to 7 years for killing two children while drink driving and he returned to the game. And Lee Hughes spent three years in prison for killing someone also while drink driving and came out to play again.

With the Ched Evans case both him and his mate admitted to having sex with the victim. His mate was found not guilty but Evans was found guilty. *Obviously I don't know all the facts from the court case but I found that a really strange verdict*.
		
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Erm, with all due respect I find it's better to know all the facts about a subject before I make a statement on that subject, especially in a sensitive area such as rape.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

I didn't think this was an open and shut decision and the board have a large petition from fans not wanting him back at the club over and above their own views. I think he will come back to football with a team somewhere as he's a capable player and he's served the time he's been asked to do. Whether that sentence and the early release is just is a whole different topic altogther and the vagaries of the judicial system, his trial and the evidence at the time are something different to this thread.


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## Birchy (Oct 17, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Erm, with all due respect I find it's better to know all the facts about a subject before I make a statement on that subject, especially in a sensitive area such as rape.
		
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With all due respect.

It was hardly a statement, more like an observation.


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## Qwerty (Oct 17, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I find it's better to know all the facts about a subject before I make a statement on that subject.
		
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If you haven't done so already give yourself a pat on the back.


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## pbrown7582 (Oct 17, 2014)

if a club wishes to employ him then that is there decision as previously mentioned if he was in another job and found work the deputy PM wouldn't be asking for him to be jobless.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

pbrown7582 said:



			if a club wishes to employ him then that is there decision as previously mentioned if he was in another job and found work the deputy PM wouldn't be asking for him to be jobless.
		
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Just to reiterate, he would be able to go back to SOME other careers but would be barred from many others.


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## pbrown7582 (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Just to reiterate, he would be able to go back to SOME other careers but would be barred from many others.
		
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yes and there is no FA regulation saying that convicted criminals cannot play so as in previous cases its up to the individual clubs and his current one has yet to decide.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Erm, with all due respect I find it's better to know all the facts about a subject before I make a statement on that subject, especially in a sensitive area such as rape.
		
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So can we assume that you won't be posting any more comments in threads such as "Where is Poulter moving to" as you certainly cannot know all of the facts about that subject unless you've spoken to him?

I didn't make any statement about his guilt or otherwise. Merely an observation that I found it strange that both of them admitting to having sex with her but only one of them was found guilty.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

pbrown7582 said:



			yes and there is no FA regulation saying that convicted criminals cannot play so as in previous cases its up to the individual clubs and his current one has yet to decide.
		
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Indeed and that's probably the bottom line. If some club chooses to employ him there's not a lot the FA can do and most football clubs sold their souls long ago.

Whether going forward they should issue some sort of licence to allow players to play alongside a set of misconduct rules for which licenses can be revoked is potentially a more interesting debate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

The NFL have brought in misconduct clauses in regards their player behaviour with players getting fined and up to sacked for indiscretions


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 17, 2014)

Footballers will also have gross misconduct clauses in their contracts. In this type of situation the clubs terminate their contracts but hold onto their registration. Evans at the moment is without a club. I am pretty certain Sheff Utd have not been paying him whilst he has been in prison.


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## CMAC (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think it too glib to put it like that. I agree that it shouldn't totally prevent someone from getting a job but there are plenty of professions where he wouldn't be able to work again e.g. lawyer.
		
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just on a pedantry note- sorry, anyone can work as a Lawyer and even call themselves one, the protected profession is Solicitor.
(I always found that interesting, so just sharing)


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## pbrown7582 (Oct 17, 2014)

But I suspect they still hold his registration? 

The players licence is a good idea sadly I can't see it happening and if so not convinced the governing bodies would set to stringent rules much like the fit and proper owners test.


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## Old Skier (Oct 17, 2014)

Makes I larf when the media keep going on about footballers being role models.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Footballers will also have gross misconduct clauses in their contracts. In this type of situation the clubs terminate their contracts but hold onto their registration. Evans at the moment is without a club. I am pretty certain Sheff Utd have not been paying him whilst he has been in prison.
		
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Sheff UTD honoured his contract until it ran out in 2012


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The NFL have brought in misconduct clauses in regards their player behaviour with players getting fined and up to sacked for indiscretions
		
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Bears no relation to this case. While Sheffield United may decide to terminate the contract, the governing body i.e. the FA will not intervene and prevent him from getting another club. If that was the case, then the Plymouth keeper causing the deaths of two kids would have been a prime example for them to get involved and invoke such sanctions


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bears no relation to this case. While Sheffield United may decide to terminate the contract, the governing body i.e. the FA will not intervene and prevent him from getting another club. If that was the case, then the Plymouth keeper causing the deaths of two kids would have been a prime example for them to get involved and invoke such sanctions
		
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The post was in response to people mentioning the FA getting involved and was example of other sports and their bodies getting involved


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The post was in response to people mentioning the FA getting involved and was example of other sports and their bodies getting involved
		
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By why would/should they with this case when there has been other players charged and served time. Surely they can't use rape as a crime too severe to allow a player to puruse a career. I can understand totally United not wanting him back and there's a fan petition which would support that view. However a club would come in for him as he's a good player providing the FA don't get involved


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Surely they can't use rape as a crime too severe to allow a player to puruse a career.
		
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Isn't it? Why not?


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Isn't it? Why not?
		
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Well the Plymouth keeper killed two kids driving drunk and was allowed to play upon release. Both would seem to be reprehensible crimes and while you cannot compare the two, surely taking two small lives would have precluded a future career if the FA were to be fair and equitable (yes I know :thup:)

They can't create one rule for one crime and another for a different one. I'm sure the players lawyers would have a field day with that. Personally, and it is only my opinion, Evans was guilty according to the courts, did his time and so should be allowed to continue to play. Whether Sheffield as the employer want him back is different to the FA making a decision. As I've said if Sheffield decide not to keep his contract, and it's far from certain they will, another club will come in for him somewhere


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## Beezerk (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The NFL have brought in misconduct clauses in regards their player behaviour with players getting fined and up to sacked for indiscretions
		
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Yes, NFL come down hard on those who step out of line, even if it means making the team weaker.
Anyway he's pig scum so I hope he has a great career with his future team...not


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

He's been convicted, he's shown no remorse. Those are facts.  He shouldn't be out of prison, never mind playing again until he's served his full sentence or has been through some kind of rehabilitation, the first step of which is admitting guilt.

If he was contrite then maybe he could have a future. Sheffield United would be wrong to take him back, but I expect they will or some other club would. Lee Hughes and Marlon king had further careers, which speaks volumes for the morals, or lack of, prevalent in football !!


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## Break90 (Oct 17, 2014)

PFA chairman Gordon Taylor was on Talksport this evening, said that there is a compelling case for the conviction to be reviewed by the authorities.

the reason that Evans has shown no remorse is that he has repeatedly stated that he is innocent.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 17, 2014)

Where is the line on which offences are "OK" to be given a second chance and those which shouldn't.
Don't think you'll ever get a consensus of opinion on this,


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 17, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Erm, with all due respect I find it's better to know all the facts about a subject before I make a statement on that subject, especially in a sensitive area such as rape.
		
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Look at this & you'll have a few more facts. Can't see how the jury arrived at " beyond reasonable doubt"

http://www.chedevans.com


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

pauldj42 said:



			Where is the line on which offences are "OK" to be given a second chance and those which shouldn't.
Don't think you'll ever get a consensus of opinion on this,
		
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It's a good question. Obviously on recent history anything goes. Rape, death by dangerous driving, and serious assault are all ok. It seems the only crime which gets a ban and all round condemnation is match fixing.

Rehabilitation has to start with admission of the crime, until then all you get is acceptance and justification.

The only reason the legal process is ongoing is because he's got deep pockets. Joe Bloggs, the plumber, would have to accept his conviction and move on.


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Look at this & you'll have a few more facts. Can't see how the jury arrived at " beyond reasonable doubt"

http://www.chedevans.com

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It's pretty safe to say, based on previous posts, you wouldn't have been selected for jury duty on this case 

The website is hardly an independent source. Also there has been a history of his supporters engaging is bullying of the 'other' side. Including the prosecution of two people, I believe, for naming the victim.

The thread isn't guilty or not, it's about should he continue with his career. He has been convicted, not been rehabilitated, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to hold a high profile position. Why should the victim be made to re-live the crime every time he scores??


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The NFL have brought in misconduct clauses in regards their player behaviour with players getting fined and up to sacked for indiscretions
		
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All of which are now being challenged by the NFL Players Association.


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## drdel (Oct 17, 2014)

I thought prisons tried to get ALL inmates back into society and jobs. Why should this guy be treated worse; If he did commit the 'crime' then he's done the time - let him move on.

However there seems some doubt whether the girl was partially to blame or actually engaged in sex freely but then changed her mind and I must admit to some concern about whether his conviction was based on all the facts and truth.


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			It's pretty safe to say, based on previous posts, you wouldn't have been selected for jury duty on this case 

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Sorry, I don't understand this, it was my first post. I know what the thread is about, I was commenting on Hacker's comment on a comment. No, the website isn't an independent source but it does contain a lot of undisputed facts which leave me incredulous about the jury's decision.

And it's not unusual for threads to wander from their original theme. I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks, having read some of the (undisputed) facts included on the website.


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

Partially to blame???^^^^ I'm not sure what you mean.


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 17, 2014)

drdel said:



			However there seems some doubt whether the girl was partially to blame or actually engaged in sex freely *but then changed her mind* and I must admit to some concern about whether his conviction was based on all the facts and truth.
		
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Not the case. Her evidence stated that she remembered nothing between meeting Evans' friend in a kebab shop & waking up the next morning. She had also previously accused someone of rape but this evidence was deemed inadmissable!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 17, 2014)

B



drdel said:



			I thought prisons tried to get ALL inmates back into society and jobs. Why should this guy be treated worse; If he did commit the 'crime' then he's done the time - let him move on.

However there seems some doubt whether the girl was partially to blame or actually engaged in sex freely but then changed her mind and I must admit to some concern about whether his conviction was based on all the facts and truth.
		
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3 Appeal judges said no to an appeal, and are you sure you mean all those who do the time should be allowed to move on?


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## davemc1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Not read the thread as I'm sure topics of this kind of nature bring out the absolute opposite ends of opinion and more than likely end up in some kind of petty arguements.
however, for what it's worth, I'm not sure taking his career off him is the right way forward. but maybe to get out the limelight he should move abroad until his appeal is final and the furore has died down.


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## Old Skier (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			It's pretty safe to say, based on previous posts, you wouldn't have been selected for jury duty on this case 

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Why, does the court system now vet forums to see who can and cannot sit on a jury.


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Sorry, I don't understand this, it was my first post. I know what the thread is about, I was commenting on Hacker's comment on a comment. No, the website isn't an independent source but it does contain a lot of undisputed facts which leave me incredulous about the jury's decision.

And it's not unusual for threads to wander from their original theme. I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks, having read some of the (undisputed) facts included on the website.
		
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You posted a couple of months ago, and I paraphrase, but you basically said if a girl was drunk she was complicit, partially to blame, for her rape. Those views would preclude you from serving on the jury.


Was he guilty, I don't know. He took advantage of a situation, and the jury was satisfied consent wasn't granted. He's not served his time, he has been convicted of a serious crime and served 2 1/2 years, that is shocking. 

The argument should be why is he out, not should he play football.


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			You posted a couple of months ago, and I paraphrase, but you basically said if a girl was drunk she was complicit, partially to blame, for her rape. Those views would preclude you from serving on the jury.


Was he guilty, I don't know. He took advantage of a situation, and the jury was satisfied consent wasn't granted. He's not served his time, he has been convicted of a serious crime and served 2 1/2 years, that is shocking. 

The argument should be why is he out, not should he play football.
		
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Your paraphrasing is grossly innacurate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			You posted a couple of months ago, and I paraphrase, but you basically said if a girl was drunk she was complicit, partially to blame, for her rape. Those views would preclude you from serving on the jury.


Was he guilty, I don't know. He took advantage of a situation, and the jury was satisfied consent wasn't granted. He's not served his time, he has been convicted of a serious crime and served 2 1/2 years, that is shocking. 

The argument should be why is he out, not should he play football.
		
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I think they decided that the was not coherent enough to be able to give consent to him and she can't remember what happened 

He has said she was very capable and was without being crude all over him and was fully involved in the act 

Believe there is a number of pics of her in the hotel 

Appears to be a minefield of a case with the judgement of guilt very much still in doubt by people 

Certainly appears to be a lot of unanswered questions and it appears thats why he has shown no remorse because he believe he is still innocent of rape

Also the initial sentence seems short ? Is it normally five years ?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 17, 2014)

Strange thing is he says she consented, I get that bit. She says she dint I get that bit. A jury decided in her favour. I get that.

what I don't get is that his girlfriend has stood by his side. Knowing full well he was involved in a drunken threesomes. He's cheated on her, and she stood by him. Whether he raped her or not and the jury believed he did. She stood by him. Very strange?


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Strange thing is he says she consented, I get that bit. She says she dint I get that bit. A jury decided in her favour. I get that.

what I don't get is that his girlfriend has stood by his side. Knowing full well he was involved in a drunken threesomes. He's cheated on her, and she stood by him. Whether he raped her or not and the jury believed he did. She stood by him. Very strange?
		
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I have though this also. It's her old man that's bankrolling his continued defence. It's a sorry story, but her lack of ability to consent seems key.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Strange thing is he says she consented, I get that bit. She says she dint I get that bit. A jury decided in her favour. I get that.

what I don't get is that his girlfriend has stood by his side. Knowing full well he was involved in a drunken threesomes. He's cheated on her, and she stood by him. Whether he raped her or not and the jury believed he did. She stood by him. Very strange?
		
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Guess she believes he deserves a second chance ?


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 17, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Strange thing is he says she consented, I get that bit. *She says she dint* I get that bit. A jury decided in her favour. I get that.

what I don't get is that his girlfriend has stood by his side. Knowing full well he was involved in a drunken threesomes. He's cheated on her, and she stood by him. Whether he raped her or not and the jury believed he did. She stood by him. Very strange?
		
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Not true. She said she remembered nothing.


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Not true. She said she remembered nothing.
		
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And that to me demonstrates her inability to consent.


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## DangerousDave86 (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think they decided that the was not coherent enough to be able to give consent to him and she can't remember what happened 

He has said she was very capable and was without being crude all over him and was fully involved in the act 

Believe there is a number of pics of her in the hotel 

Appears to be a minefield of a case with the judgement of guilt very much still in doubt by people 

Certainly appears to be a lot of unanswered questions and it appears thats why he has shown no remorse because he believe he is still innocent of rape

Also the initial sentence seems short ? Is it normally five years ?
		
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If this is true, then how is a guy supposed to know whether a girl is wasted enough to be able to remember giving consent the next day?

I agree to many points being raised in this case.

- People are saying he shouldn't be allowed to return to his profession, yet there is nothing in the laws of the game which states this. Sheffield Utd should make their own decision based upon the pros and cons of resigning him.

- I've heard people say that he's served his sentence. He hasn't. He served half of it. What's the point of sentencing him for 5 if he's only going to serve 2.5?

- People are complaining that he isn't remorseful, yet he's maintaining his innocence, so why should he show remorse for something he believes he didn't do?

There is no way to prove whether the girl agreed to consensual sex with either of the two men, its his word versus hers, and while I don't know the facts, it would be interesting to know on what grounds he was charged, as there wouldn'tbe any physical evidence, I presume, only two very differing accounts of what happened.

What I find astonishing is that Ched Evan's missus has stayed with him throughout and supported him. Even if he is not guilty of rape, he's still cheated on her, and admitted it, I know I wouldn't stick around.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			And that to me demonstrates her inability to consent.
		
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But what if she consented at the time but can't remember doing so the next day ?


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess she believes he deserves a second chance ?
		
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Or she's just a mug & knows he'll end up with another decent contract.


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## bluewolf (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But what if she consented at the time but can't remember doing so the next day ?
		
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Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the law states that if the person is drunk, then consent cannot be given.. Agree with it or not..


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			And that to me demonstrates her inability to consent.
		
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As long as you're sure she was telling the truth "beyond reasonable doubt"  She had,apparently, previously accused someone else of rape but this evidence was deemed to be inadmissable & couldn't be used by the defence.


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 17, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the law states that if the person is drunk, then consent cannot be given.. Agree with it or not..
		
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Not necessarily so!

http://lexisweb.co.uk/cases/2007/march/r-v-bree


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the law states that if the person is drunk, then consent cannot be given.. Agree with it or not..
		
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Didnt know that ?

So any bloke that sleeps with a lady who is drunk could be charged with rape ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 17, 2014)

Still what says the most to me is all the evidence plus any new evidence was put to the Appeal Court, 3 Judges reviewed the case and denied his appeal, 
The victim and his girlfriend now seem to get there characters questioned more than him, were was his character that night when he put himself in that situation.
As someone else already stated, this shouldn't be about if he can return to Football, but why is he out!


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## DangerousDave86 (Oct 17, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Strange thing is he says she consented, I get that bit. She says she dint I get that bit. A jury decided in her favour. I get that.

what I don't get is that his girlfriend has stood by his side. Knowing full well he was involved in a drunken threesomes. He's cheated on her, and she stood by him. Whether he raped her or not and the jury believed he did. She stood by him. Very strange?
		
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You read my mind haha


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didnt know that ?

So any bloke that sleeps with a lady who is drunk could be charged with rape ?
		
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Can that be right? Seems to be making a rod that any woman who has had too much, had a one night stand and regretted it could then cry rape. I'm not disagreeing with you LP, just agreeing it doesn't seem fair


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## williamalex1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didnt know that ?

So any bloke that sleeps with a lady who is drunk could be charged with rape ?
		
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Or vice versa ?.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Or vice versa.
		
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Most definately


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## User20205 (Oct 17, 2014)

There was enough evidence to convict him. He's gone to appeal and lost. If it was really his word against hers he wouldn't have been convicted. The fact she was drunk is no defence nor is it a reason to convict. 

It's really pointless questioning his guilt, or otherwise. He is a convicted, un rehabilitated sex offender and football shouldn't legitimise that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			There was enough evidence to convict him. He's gone to appeal and lost. If it was really his word against hers he wouldn't have been convicted. The fact she was drunk is no defence nor is it a reason to convict. 

It's really pointless questioning his guilt, or otherwise. He is a convicted, un rehabilitated sex offender and football shouldn't legitimise that.
		
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Well said, well summed up


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

Many people in the past have been found to be innocent even though they have been convicted and spent time in jail 

Unless there is something missing all the reports say he was found guilty of rape because she was too drunk to give consent 

Also don't think he has had an appeal - it was denied 

They are going through a second appeal process 

The website certainly throws up a lot of interesting questions

*The only evidence of what sexual activity occurred came from the accounts of his co-accused Clayton McDonald who also had sex with the complainant and was found not guilty of rape, Ched, and the night porter who was listening outside the room.*

*The police arrested both Ched and Clayton at the station, they acknowledged that the only evidence that sexual activity had taken place was their admission. There was no complaint of rape, no forensic evidence, no injury and no complaint.*


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## garyinderry (Oct 17, 2014)

How could one of the footballers get found guilty and the other get off.  If she can't remember anything after the kebab shop then she could consent to either of them. 

Strange case this.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

At the end of the day he was convicted. Whether that was safe or not is of course open to debate. As he's now released where does he go from here?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			How could one of the footballers get found guilty and the other get off.  If she can't remember anything after the kebab shop then she could consent to either of them. 

Strange case this.
		
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Obviously the website is only one side to the story but it has lots more details 

It's very strange - the legal team appear very confident of getting the conviction quashed 

But he is going to get abused up and down the country regardless when he starts playing again


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

There were a lot of inconsistencies which is why he wanted an appeal.


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## garyinderry (Oct 17, 2014)

From the cctv, she doesn't look overly drunk. Drunk enough to lose her handbag but sober enough to remember a pizza sitting on the floor outside the hotel.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Many people in the past have been found to be innocent even though they have been convicted and spent time in jail 

Unless there is something missing all the reports say he was found guilty of rape because she was too drunk to give consent 



Also don't think he has had an appeal - it was denied 

They are going through a second appeal process 

The website certainly throws up a lot of interesting questions

*The only evidence of what sexual activity occurred came from the accounts of his co-accused Clayton McDonald who also had sex with the complainant and was found not guilty of rape, Ched, and the night porter who was listening outside the room.*

*The police arrested both Ched and Clayton at the station, they acknowledged that the only evidence that sexual activity had taken place was their admission. There was no complaint of rape, no forensic evidence, no injury and no complaint.*

Click to expand...

When interviewed separately both Clayton and Ched acknowledged consensual  sexual activity with the complainant 
Bit unfair to cut and paste selected parts from his website, the appeal was for a retrial which he was denied, that's why he's going for a 2nd appeal


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2014)

therod said:



			There was enough evidence to convict him. He's gone to appeal and lost. If it was really his word against hers he wouldn't have been convicted. The fact she was drunk is no defence nor is it a reason to convict. 

It's really pointless questioning his guilt, or otherwise. He is a convicted, un rehabilitated sex offender and football shouldn't legitimise that.
		
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It was a Crown Court, which means he was convicted by a jury.  That does not necessarily mean that there was sufficient evidence to convict him, just that the members of the jury or a majority thereof decided he was guilty; we don't know why.  And I say that as someone who has undertaken jury service.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			It was a Crown Court, which means he was convicted by a jury.  That does not necessarily mean that there was sufficient evidence to convict him, just that the members of the jury or a majority thereof decided he was guilty; we don't know why.  And I say that as someone who has undertaken jury service.
		
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Do we know if it was a majority or unanimous verdict?


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 17, 2014)

This is a golf forum for God's sake. What exactly has this got to do with football?


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## williamalex1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			This is a golf forum for God's sake. What exactly has this got to do with football?

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Because it did cross the line.:rofl:


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 18, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Do we know if it was a majority or unanimous verdict?
		
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Extract from the Ched Evans  website http://www.chedevans.com/the-trial



At Caernarvon Crown Court the evidence was presented to the Jury over 8 days. The sitting Jury had been on Jury duty for 3 weeks. On Friday 20th April the Jury members left the Court to deliberate. After 4 hours, the Jury sent a message to the Judge saying that they could not come to a unanimous decision on both counts. The Judge chose not to exercise his discretion to give the Jury the option to return a majority verdict and sent them back out to further deliberate the case. It was clear that should the Jury not reach a unanimous decision by the end of that Friday session they would have to come back to the Court the following Monday and start what was for some a fourth week of service.


Approximately 50 minutes later the Jury returned two unanimous decisions - finding Clayton McDonald innocent and Ched Evans guilty.  Clayton McDonald was acquitted. Ched Evans was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment.


At the end of the trial the prosecution counsel went over to Evans' family & apologised, he obviously thought they had no expectation of a conviction. The appeal failed because there needed to be new evidence. apparently you can't appeal just because you, and many other people, think it was a ludicrous decision on the part of the jury.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

pauldj42 said:



*When interviewed separately both Clayton and Ched acknowledged consensual  sexual activity with the complainant* 
Bit unfair to cut and paste selected parts from his website, the appeal was for a retrial which he was denied, that's why he's going for a 2nd appeal
		
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Which is what is being said in the posts 

And im not going to cut and paste the whole website - i used those two paragraphs to highlight how confusing the whole case is


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## User20205 (Oct 18, 2014)

It's obvious that some on here have an agenda


http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ng-a-rape-conviction&p=1133481&highlight=Rape
You can't use his own website as evidence for a miscarriage of justice, but even with the 'facts' on there you get an idea of why one was convicted and the the other not. 

12 jury members found him guilty & that's good enough for most people. Are you really suggesting they found him guilty because they wanted to get home for their tea??


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			It's obvious that some on here have an agenda


http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ng-a-rape-conviction&p=1133481&highlight=Rape
You can't use his own website as evidence for a miscarriage of justice, *but even with the 'facts' on there you get an idea of why one was convicted and the the other not. *

12 jury members found him guilty & that's good enough for most people. Are you really suggesting they found him guilty because they wanted to get home for their tea??
		
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Have juries never before found innocent people guilty 

I cant see the idea that one was convicted and one wasnt ?

They both had sex with her and she was in the same state when she had sex with both so why did one get off and the other convicted ?

No agenda at all


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			It's obvious that some on here have an agenda


http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ng-a-rape-conviction&p=1133481&highlight=Rape
You can't use his own website as evidence for a miscarriage of justice, but even with the 'facts' on there you get an idea of why one was convicted and the the other not. 

12 jury members found him guilty & that's good enough for most people. Are you really suggesting they found him guilty *because they wanted to get home for their tea??*

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I think some members of the jury changed their minds for that reason, they were fed up after being cooped up for 3 weeks. I can't get over the fact that *she'd previously accused someone of rape, *and that this fact could not be used by the defence. If I were in front of a jury for something I didn't do I wouldn't feel terrifically confident I can tell you. I'd much prefer to be tried by three legally qualified, intelligent, people.


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## User20205 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have juries never before found innocent people guilty 

I cant see the idea that one was convicted and one wasnt ?

They both had sex with her and she was in the same state when she had sex with both so why did one get off and the other convicted ?

No agenda at all
		
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Not your agenda, the other fella who reckons if she is drunk a woman is partially to blame, and being drunk for the fella is a defence

Wrongful conviction by jury is incredibly rare, especially with a robust appeals process. The fact they've submitted no new evidence means there is no grounds for appeal. 

He and his mate conspired to take advantage of her. She went back consensually with his mate, she didn't consent to what happened afterwards.

I find the complete denial, and lack of remorse on his part, sickening.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			Not your agenda, the other fella who reckons if she is drunk a woman is partially to blame, and being drunk for the fella is a defence

Wrongful conviction by jury is incredibly rare, especially with a robust appeals process. The fact they've submitted no new evidence means there is no grounds for appeal. 

He and his mate conspired to take advantage of her. She went back consensually with his mate, she didn't consent to what happened afterwards.
		
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There is no evidence to suggest this - both men state she agreed to it ? - she cant remember any of the night 



			I find the complete denial, and lack of remorse on his part, sickening.
		
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But he believes he is innocent - he believes she gave consent.

Is it not possible that the women gave consent at the time and then the next day didnt remember because she was drunk ? Then what ?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			There was enough evidence to convict him. He's gone to appeal and lost. If it was really his word against hers he wouldn't have been convicted. The fact she was drunk is no defence nor is it a reason to convict. 

It's really pointless questioning his guilt, or otherwise. He is a convicted, un rehabilitated sex offender and football shouldn't legitimise that.
		
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Well said.


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## User20205 (Oct 18, 2014)

If he suddenly produces the magic piece of evidence that wins his appeal then he can be considered innocent. Until then he's a convicted sexual predator that should be rehabilitated before he can move on. 

He went through due legal process and was convicted, anything else is supposition.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			If he suddenly produces the magic piece of evidence that wins his appeal then he can be considered innocent. Until then he's a convicted sexual predator that should be rehabilitated before he can move on. 

He went through due legal process and was convicted, anything else is supposition.
		
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i agree. He's guilty in my eyes. 
The debate to him playing again is a non starter. He is fortunate to be in a profession with great rewards but can't stop him playing. Too many cases already show that players will find new clubs. 

I Don't condone his actions in the slightest. My only issue with some cases are that innocent men have had careers tarnished whilst the woman accusing them get privacy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			i agree. He's guilty in my eyes. 
The debate to him playing again is a non starter. He is fortunate to be in a profession with great rewards but can't stop him playing. Too many cases already show that players will find new clubs. 

I Don't condone his actions in the slightest. My only issue with some cases are that innocent men have had careers tarnished whilst the woman accusing them get privacy.
		
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What if he is innocent ?

Do you not think there is enough doubt when you read up on all the evidence and issues and indeed facts 

What difference is there between the footballer and his friend ?


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What if he is innocent ?

Do you not think there is enough doubt when you read up on all the evidence and issues and indeed facts 

What difference is there between the footballer and his friend ?
		
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i will accept there are points on both sides that maybe aren't conclusive. But I tend to side with the victim which for me is the woman, once he's been found guilty and lost appeals. I accept that miscarriages of justice do occur. But they aren't frequent wnough for me to challenge this decision.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			i will accept there are points on both sides that maybe aren't conclusive. But I tend to side with the victim which for me is the woman, once he's been found guilty and lost appeals. I accept that miscarriages of justice do occur. But they aren't frequent wnough for me to challenge this decision.
		
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He hasnt had an appeal - he requested a re trial on appeal and was turned down 

Currently believe he has a new legal team that are very confident.

Unless there is something missing from all the reports i still cant understand why one was found guilty and the other wasnt 

Two said she gave consent - the girl cant remember. That seems to be the crux of it.


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			Not your agenda, the other fella who reckons if she is drunk a woman is partially to blame, and being drunk for the fella is a defence

Wrongful conviction by jury is incredibly rare, especially with a robust appeals process. The fact they've submitted no new evidence means there is no grounds for appeal. 

He and his mate conspired to take advantage of her. She went back consensually with his mate, *she didn't consent to what happened afterwards.*

I find the complete denial, and lack of remorse on his part, sickening.
		
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How on earth do you know, were you there? Two people say she consented, she *says *can't remember. In my view a conviction on this evidence is very suspect.

Just to show I'm not excusing this type of behaviour I think the way all three behaved was despicable. The two of them left themselves open to the accusation of rape. It should be a lesson to anyone else putting themselves into this position, although I don't suppose many will take notice.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He hasnt had an appeal - he requested a re trial on appeal and was turned down 

Currently believe he has a new legal team that are very confident.

Unless there is something missing from all the reports i still cant understand why one was found guilty and the other wasnt 

Two said she gave consent - the girl cant remember. That seems to be the crux of it.
		
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i would suggest the difference being that she got a taxi with one and the other followed. Suggestion there may have been consent for him?

imo innocent til proven guilty. If he proves his innocent then I guess poeple will have to apologise. But his lawyers saying they're confident means little to me. Most people that go through an appeal tend to suggest that. Lots of people have appealed numerous cases when all its done is waste money. 

I think the implication that she was so hammered she can't rememeber is dangerous ground. Imagine there was video evidence of them raping her, but because she couldn't rememebr IT wouldn't count?

she was so drunk they literally walked over her in a pizza shop. That imo is predatory at least. It looks to me they blatantly took advantage and her being too drunk to recall saying no doesnt prove innocence for me.


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## User20205 (Oct 18, 2014)

Maninblack4612 said:



			How on earth do you know, were you there? Two people say she consented, she *says *can't remember. In my view a conviction on this evidence is very suspect.

Just to show I'm not excusing this type of behaviour I think the way all three behaved was despicable. The two of them left themselves open to the accusation of rape. It should be a lesson to anyone else putting themselves into this position, although I don't suppose many will take notice.
		
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The conviction tells me all I need to know re consent. I agree there was, and probably is going forward, a real ignorance on the respective danger of the situation.

We're never going to agree on the conviction. I, maybe blindly, put my faith in the jury system, which in the vast majority of cases is shown to be robust.

You seem to believe, she was drunk, couldn't consent, and that's a defence


I've just read Sheffield United have been rumoured to have offered him a 2 year 500k contract


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			The conviction tells me all I need to know re consent. I agree there was, and probably is going forward, a real ignorance on the respective danger of the situation.

We're never going to agree on the conviction. I, maybe blindly, put my faith in the jury system, which in the vast majority of cases is shown to be robust.

You seem to believe, she was drunk, couldn't consent, and that's a defence


*I've just read Sheffield United have been rumoured to have offered him a 2 year 500k contract *

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*
*
35 goals in 50 apps before conviction meant this would always happen. Lee Hughes and marlon king show that. Of course they have careers and if there were on a different profession they'd still work again I'm sure.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			i would suggest the difference being that she got a taxi with one and the other followed. Suggestion there may have been consent for him?
		
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Again its suggestions as opposed to definite proof - both the men said she gave consent




			imo innocent til proven guilty. If he proves his innocent then I guess poeple will have to apologise. But his lawyers saying they're confident means little to me. Most people that go through an appeal tend to suggest that. Lots of people have appealed numerous cases when all its done is waste money. 

I think the implication that she was so hammered she can't rememeber is dangerous ground. Imagine there was video evidence of them raping her, but because she couldn't rememebr IT wouldn't count?
		
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Its not an implication though - she said she couldnt remember ? That appears to be through drink



			she was so drunk they literally walked over her in a pizza shop. That imo is predatory at least. It looks to me they blatantly took advantage and her being too drunk to recall saying no doesnt prove innocence for me.
		
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Yet she was coherent enough to remember that she left the pizza behind and went back to get it ? as seen in the CCTV plus many other actions that night 

And her not remember giving consent shouldnt be enough to prove guilt ? 

Remember this is the same lady that was tweeting about how she was going to celebrate with her winnings


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again its suggestions as opposed to definite proof - both the men said she gave consent



Its not an implication though - she said she couldnt remember ? That appears to be through drink


Yet she was coherent enough to remember that she left the pizza behind and went back to get it ? as seen in the CCTV plus many other actions that night 

And her not remember giving consent shouldnt be enough to prove guilt ? 

Remember this is the same lady that was tweeting about how she was going to celebrate with her winnings
		
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Them saying she agreed is hardly proof either. They could have concocted a story. Again there's no proof of that. But as im of the opinion they did rape her, it wouldn't be difficult to sort a story. 

Rememeber your pizza and quickly grabbing it is not the same as forgetting bits of a night. I've had many nights where ive not managed to rememebr most of ot. But I've remembered to get a coat from the lockers etc. 

celebrating her damages? Her actions after the case should have no bearing on what happened. 

There at the very least were predators who took advantage. Althiugh I can't say I've ever gotten a taxi seperately froma woman who's wanted sex with me? 

Her not knowing if she gave consent isn't her only defemce imo. She went back with one (not guilty). Another joined (guilty). That makes sense to me. Whilst others simply wanted to video it for a laugh. I'd suggest that shiws more of their type of character and capabilities than her celebrating.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Them saying she agreed is hardly proof either. They could have concocted a story. Again there's no proof of that. But as im of the opinion they did rape her, it wouldn't be difficult to sort a story.
		
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There is no proof of that you are right - and they could have concocted the story but again thats their word against hers isnt it ? There is doubt there surely - there is also a night porter who heard the noises of sex going on inside from both men and the lady.




			Rememeber your pizza and quickly grabbing it is not the same as forgetting bits of a night. I've had many nights where ive not managed to rememebr most of ot. But I've remembered to get a coat from the lockers etc.
		
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There is a video of her arriving in the taxi and she is walking fine and there is many other actions she was able to do with no problems 




			celebrating her damages? Her actions after the case should have no bearing on what happened.
		
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Of course they should have a bearing - they possibly could point to a motive of her reasons behind having sex with a footballer - for the money and fame 




			There at the very least were predators who took advantage. Althiugh I can't say I've ever gotten a taxi seperately froma woman who's wanted sex with me?
		
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Only have to read the stories over the years of the things that footballers have got up to and also the young ladies that have got involved for a bit of fame and money so yes it is possible that a young lade goes off with another and his mate arrives ten mins later and also joins in - have seen it happen with a work mate out in Cyprus with his flatmate and a girl.




			Her not knowing if she gave consent isn't her only defemce imo. She went back with one (not guilty). Another joined (guilty). That makes sense to me. Whilst others simply wanted to video it for a laugh. I'd suggest that shiws more of their type of character and capabilities than her celebrating.
		
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Again why does someone joining in make him guilty ? 

They said she was too drunk to give consent and they took advantage of her - so was she sober enough to give consent to one and then ten mins later not coherent enough to give consent to the other 

Yes trying to film it etc is acts of stupidity but again that doesnt make Evans guilty of rape 

Have you read the website ? Have  a quick read - it certainly opens up a lot questions


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no proof of that you are right - and they could have concocted the story but again thats their word against hers isnt it ? There is doubt there surely - there is also a night porter who heard the noises of sex going on inside from both men and the lady.



There is a video of her arriving in the taxi and she is walking fine and there is many other actions she was able to do with no problems 



Of course they should have a bearing - they possibly could point to a motive of her reasons behind having sex with a footballer - for the money and fame 



Only have to read the stories over the years of the things that footballers have got up to and also the young ladies that have got involved for a bit of fame and money so yes it is possible that a young lade goes off with another and his mate arrives ten mins later and also joins in - have seen it happen with a work mate out in Cyprus with his flatmate and a girl.



Again why does someone joining in make him guilty ? 

They said she was too drunk to give consent and they took advantage of her - so was she sober enough to give consent to one and then ten mins later not coherent enough to give consent to the other 

Yes trying to film it etc is acts of stupidity but again that doesnt make Evans guilty of rape 

Have you read the website ? Have  a quick read - it certainly opens up a lot questions
		
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irrespectibe of the points they make on their website. Based purely from there perspective I'm sure. With have a judicial system. I've chosen to believe it. I accept that some girls look for fame and that they can cry rape when they realise they've been used just like they were doing to the men. But I've seen many cases thrown out when that happens. They've been convicted so are guilty. Nothing will change that opinion just as nothing will change yours. 

Mo think the biggest sticking block I have seen many campaigners show is not what he has done. But the complete lack of remorse shown for any of his actions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			irrespectibe of the points they make on their website. Based purely from there perspective I'm sure. With have a judicial system. I've chosen to believe it. I accept that some girls look for fame and that they can cry rape when they realise they've been used just like they were doing to the men. But I've seen many cases thrown out when that happens. They've been convicted so are guilty. Nothing will change that opinion just as nothing will change yours. 

Mo think the biggest sticking block I have seen many campaigners show is not what he has done. But the complete lack of remorse shown for any of his actions.
		
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People wont show remorse if they 100% believe they are innocent 

And whilst he has been found guilty - reading all the information given i can certainly see a lot of doubt within the whole case to be open minded to the possibility that this could be a wrong conviction ( and it wouldnt be the first time )


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			It's obvious that some on here have an agenda


http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ng-a-rape-conviction&p=1133481&highlight=Rape
You can't use his own website as evidence for a miscarriage of justice, but even with the 'facts' on there you get an idea of why one was convicted and the the other not. 

*12 jury members found him guilty & that's good enough for most people. Are you really suggesting they found him guilty because they wanted to get home for their tea??*

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Having seen similar be suggested in a jury room, albeit not in a case of this severity, it wouldn't surprise me.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People wont show remorse if they 100% believe they are innocent 

And whilst he has been found guilty - reading all the information given i can certainly see a lot of doubt within the whole case to be open minded to the possibility that this could be a wrong conviction ( and it wouldnt be the first time )
		
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Yes there have Mis wrongful convcuitobs. But the correct ones give me more confidence in the system being right not wrong. 

Its nit not a case of me being closed minded be used I don't believe him. It's a case of trusting our system. Did they release all the details of what made them convict him. If not then you're veliveing his innocence purely on his suggestions. Or you simply have another reason to not trust the judicial systems.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			The conviction tells me all I need to know re consent. I agree there was, and probably is going forward, a real ignorance on the respective danger of the situation.

*We're never going to agree on the conviction. I, maybe blindly, put my faith in the jury system, which in the vast majority of cases is shown to be robust.*

You seem to believe, she was drunk, couldn't consent, and that's a defence


I've just read Sheffield United have been rumoured to have offered him a 2 year 500k contract 

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All well & good unless you are the victim in the case of one that goes wrong, and I would consider I've seen more than a few of those.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Having seen similar be suggested in a jury room, albeit not in a case of this severity, it wouldn't surprise me.
		
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I would guess that a lot see jury service as a pain in their rear end and would like it over and done with as soon as possible

My brother was on a jury for a domestic abuse case - he found that some wanted the verdict straight away , some had already decided the verdict before it even started and some just followed along with stronger people - that appears just a snapshot of human life.


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## User20205 (Oct 18, 2014)

So the ched Evans case is going to bring the downfall of a legal system that has been around for about 3000 years.

I would suggest the jury system is only as strong as the evidence presented to it. Either you believe in the rule of law, and support it's mechanisms or you don't. If you do he's guilty, and currently isn't deserving of a high profile career in football.

The fact that the jury system sometimes is flawed isn't a reason to doubt his conviction, if there was a glaring mistake it would have gone to appeal, as other cases have done.

What gets me about the campaign & this thread, is that it's all about his rights to get his life back. What about the rights of the victim?

She was drunk, liked pizza and had sex with his mate, therefore she's making it up??


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 18, 2014)

Funny how most golfers seem perfectly happy to accept rules/verdicts like dress codes imposed by some a committee and say if people don't like them then they should not join.  Yet when it comes to a verdict that has been through what is generally seen as one of the best justice systems in the world then they are not so sure of it.  Mostly based on what the person who was convicted of rape says on their web site.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			So the ched Evans case is going to bring the downfall of a legal system that has been around for about 3000 years.
		
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Not at all - just realising that its not 100% flawless because




			I would suggest the jury system is only as strong as the evidence presented to it. Either you believe in the rule of law, and support it's mechanisms or you don't. If you do he's guilty, and currently isn't deserving of a high profile career in football.
		
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The jury is also as strong as the 12 people - he has been convicted as being guilty by the law - but as suggested it appears there could be doubt on his guilt.




			The fact that the jury system sometimes is flawed isn't a reason to doubt his conviction, if there was a glaring mistake it would have gone to appeal, as other cases have done.

What gets me about the campaign & this thread, is that it's all about his rights to get his life back. What about the rights of the victim?

She was drunk, liked pizza and had sex with his mate, therefore she's making it up??

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I dont think anyone has suggested she made anything up - from what i understand she just cant remember and that is the evidence used to convict him it appears.

yes she has rights - but why would she be boasting about spending compensation money on cars and holidays for her and her mate ?
Why was the fact she had previously complained of rape after not remembering what happened dismissed by the judge ?

It just doesnt seem an open and shut case to me when i read up on it - seems to be a lot of doubt and a lot of holes unless there is something that isnt being told by someone ?

An appeal was turned down because no new evidence came to light - they wanted a re trial which was turned down - again not sure why they wouldnt allow a re trial - is it normal procedure ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Funny how most golfers seem perfectly happy to accept rules/verdicts like dress codes imposed by some a committee and say if people don't like them then they should not join.  Yet when it comes to a verdict that has been through what is generally seen as one of the best justice systems in the world then they are not so sure of it.  Mostly based on what the person who was convicted of rape says on their web site.
		
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What has been said on the website has also been confirmed in the police statements - the video is also on the website - there appears to be a lot of facts on the website and in the papers that i have read and listened to the clips 

How you bring in dress codes ( once again ) is beyond me - it is totally irrelevant

People are able to discuss things and are able to form opinions and have doubts regardless of verdicts.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Yes there have Mis wrongful convcuitobs. But the correct ones give me more confidence in the system being right not wrong. 

Its nit not a case of me being closed minded be used I don't believe him. *It's a case of trusting our system. Did they release all the details of what made them convict him. If not then you're veliveing his innocence purely on his suggestions*. Or you simply have another reason to not trust the judicial systems.
		
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hence why i have asked the question - is there anything not being said - have the courts kept something that the young lady said - is there evidence that we dont know about ? 

The fact there has been mistakes in the justice system is always a reason to be open minded in regards some cases if you believe there is doubt there. 

Why dont you believe him ? He could be telling them truth - it could simply be a case of his word against hers - that itself brings in doubt.

(p.s. - impressed this has stayed a civil debate )


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## Beezerk (Oct 18, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Funny how most golfers seem perfectly happy to accept rules/verdicts like dress codes imposed by some a committee and say if people don't like them then they should not join.  Yet when it comes to a verdict that has been through what is generally seen as one of the best justice systems in the world then they are not so sure of it.  Mostly based on what the person who was convicted of rape says on their web site.
		
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I find it vile that people are seemingly questioning whether the lass was drunk enough or not to consent. Does it really matter? 
He got done bang to rights for rape and besides, I wouldn't expect anyone in Chad Evans position to come out and say they were guilty. They never do!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why dont you believe him ? He could be telling them truth - it could simply be a case of his word against hers - that itself brings in doubt.
		
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Innocent until proven guilty is a good adage. He's been proven guilty in a court of law. End of story.

Hugely disappointed that some here are still blaming the victim and taking the rapists side over the findings of a court of law.

Whether he should be allowed to continue a career as a pro-footballer is a legitimate subject for debate, the fact that he is a convicted rapist is not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Innocent until proven guilty is a good adage. *He's been proven guilty in a court of law. End of story*.

Hugely disappointed that some here are still blaming the victim and taking the rapists side over the findings of a court of law.

Whether he should be allowed to continue a career as a pro-footballer is a legitimate subject for debate, the fact that he is a convicted rapist is not.
		
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Is that valid for every single conviction then - what about the ones that have been proven guilty and convictions quashed decades later in some cases ?

Some believe there is significant doubt in the case to question the conviction.

As for innocent until proven guilty - because of the media coverage in this country and the fact that the media can spread the accused name around the people majority of the time they are deemed guilty already.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Got to love this thread.. The 2 women involved have had their characters assassinated and the blokes have been given all the benefit of the doubt.. Priceless...

Oh, and with regards to the OP.. Yes he should be allowed to return to his job, however, I would hope that my club would refuse to employ him on ethical grounds (As my club did with Marlon King). I'm off to the game with my kids today. If he was playing, I'd make other plans.. I'm not sure I could explain the situation to my daughter without sickening her..


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Got to love this thread.. *The 2 women *involved have had their characters assassinated and the blokes have been given all the benefit of the doubt.. Priceless...

Oh, and with regards to the OP.. Yes he should be allowed to return to his job, however, I would hope that my club would refuse to employ him on ethical grounds (As my club did with Marlon King). I'm off to the game with my kids today. If he was playing, I'd make other plans.. I'm not sure I could explain the situation to my daughter without sickening her..
		
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Was there a second woman ?

If there is doubt on both sides then can there be a conviction ?


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Was there a second woman ?

If there is doubt on both sides then can there be a conviction ?
		
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Are you forgetting the comments made about Ched Evans girlfriend then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Are you forgetting the comments made about Ched Evans girlfriend then?
		
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Ah right sorry :thup:


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## bladeplayer (Oct 18, 2014)

Read this thread with interest for many reasons ,Firstly not getting into the right or wrongs of the case as only 3 people will know what really happened..
I as some will know do door work and have done for years , it often worries when i see women / girls either on the street or even leaving pub/club in drunken condition , i AM NOT saying for a second how much you drink or what you wear gives anyone the RIGHT to do something/anything to you against your wishes ..

We have ages limits for entry into these places for a reason , these age limits are to make sure you are an ADULT and as an adult you are responsible for your own actions , 

 if the girl drank so much that she cannot remember what went on, this  has to me, be a mitigating circumstance in this case , if she came out and was clear and conesise about what happened against her wishes it would be more clear cut , even still it is word against word  , but easier to believe the "victim"

This other guy in the case may not have been found guilty of rape but if the girl (as some have said) consented to go with him ONLY  then Evans somehow got involved in the treesome , IF the girl was as unresponsive as she states then this other guy is IMO as guilty of the rape as much as if he (forgive this) held her down ..

I dont know if they raped her or not but surely she did not go out that night on her own ? did her friends let their extremely drunk friend leave with a stranger ?


As i said before i dont know what happened so im just giving my opinions but RESPONSIBILITY for your own actions has to play some part in society and in life , as i have said before nobody has the right to force you to do anything you dont want to , but if someone "cant remember" what happened how can you give evidence .. 

As for the question in the OP if you commit a crime and serve the sentence given to you should you be allowed back to the job , its not that clear cut , if your crime can have some bearing on the job , ie  if you rob a bank you shouldnt get a job with money & so on if not then yes you should be


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As for innocent until proven guilty - because of the media coverage in this country and the fact that the media can spread the accused name around the people majority of the time they are deemed guilty already.
		
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:rofl:

A quick look at rape conviction rates will reveal how wrong you are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			:rofl:

A quick look at rape conviction rates will reveal how wrong you are.
		
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Sorry but that doesnt really stop people judging beforehand and not sure whats funny ?

If a footballer is accused of rape and his name is in the papers then there will be people that believe he is guilty already - unless you think they dont ?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			:rofl:

A quick look at rape conviction rates will reveal how wrong you are.
		
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Hey don't worry FD, I am sure there would be just as much willingness on this forum to challenge a legal decision if the positions were reversed and a man had been found not guilty despite the fact the woman still said she was raped.  

The rape threads on this forum (and there's a phrase I never hoped I'd be typing) don't seem to bring out the best in people really and I do wonder what any prospective advertisers who read these kind of threads must think.

I'm not one for censorship (but then again I have been 100 times more offended by some of the stuff I read in these rape threads and in others regarding things like foreign policy than I would be if someone used a mild swear word) but you do wonder why these threads are started at times.  As if it's for a sensible and informed debate then best of luck with that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey don't worry FD, *I am sure there would be just as much willingness on this forum to challenge a legal decision if the positions were reversed and a man had been found not guilty despite the fact the woman still said she was raped.  *

The rape threads on this forum (and there's a phrase I never hoped I'd be typing) don't seem to bring out the best in people really and I do wonder what any prospective advertisers who read these kind of threads must think.
		
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If there is doubt in the verdict then yes there would be willingness to challenge. But dont let that stop you from making judgements

Maybe its just me but i think this debate has been handled maturely without it descending into tit for tat or going to the stage of a slanging match.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but that doesnt really stop people judging beforehand and not sure whats funny ?

If a footballer is accused of rape and his name is in the papers then there will be people that believe he is guilty already - unless you think they dont ?
		
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The funny thing is your staunch support for a convicted rapist to the exclusion of actual facts. Like how hard it is to secure a rape conviction in reality versus your conceit that juries have decided the accused is guilty before the trial even starts.

Liverpoolphil, based on the rapists website, chooses to support the rapist over the victim, a jury and a panel of appeal court judges who decided there were no grounds for appeal.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 18, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey don't worry FD, I am sure there would be just as much willingness on this forum to challenge a legal decision if the positions were reversed and a man had been found not guilty despite the fact the woman still said she was raped.  

The rape threads on this forum (and there's a phrase I never hoped I'd be typing) don't seem to bring out the best in people really and I do wonder what any prospective advertisers who read these kind of threads must think.
		
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I think this one has been conducted quiet civily dont you?
Human nature will always differ on such things , just the nature of the beast ,if she had been dragged down a lane i dont think anyone would have questioned what went on ,, 

Nowt as strange as folk ...  , if the friends & family of the "victim" were the friends & family of the "charged"  im sure they would have no doubt in their belief either,   although it would be the exact opposite of what it is now.. &vice versa


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 18, 2014)

It's fine to have discussions about such matters as long as the discussion remains civil
 ( which it has)
It's also important to know when a subject has been discussed enough, and when folks start repeating the content of some of their previous posts, this is a signal .


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			The funny thing is your staunch support for a convicted rapist to the exclusion of actual facts. Like how hard it is to secure a rape conviction in reality versus your conceit that juries have decided the accused is guilty before the trial even starts.

Liverpoolphil, based on the rapists website, chooses to support the rapist over the victim, a jury and a panel of appeal court judges who decided there were no grounds for appeal.
		
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Which facts have i excluded - is there something missing from the website that proves beyond all reasonable doubt that its an open and shut case - is there something missing from all the media reports and the police reports etc 

I have suggested that it appears there is doubt in the case - which considering also the time it took the jury to deliver the verdict is possible they thought as such 

And i have said that some people on the jury service that my brother sat on had already decided the person was guilty ( in the case they were dealing with )

Is it not possible that the young lady gave consent and then changed her mind the next day - as has proven to have happened in other cases ?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			if the girl drank so much that she cannot remember what went on, this  has to me, be a mitigating circumstance in this case
		
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No, it absolutely is not. I really hope that was just careless use of the word "mitigating".

No matter how drunk someone is you don't have any right to cheat, rob, assault, murder or even rape them.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 18, 2014)

He has served his time and should be allowed to play football , not as if he's going to rape someone while playing or is he. 
 20 years ago Duncan Ferguson was jailed for an assault that took place on the playing field, and he was allowed to carry on playing after his released.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey don't worry FD, I am sure there would be just as much willingness on this forum to challenge a legal decision* if the positions were reversed and a man had been found not guilty despite the fact the woman still said she was raped*.  

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Isn't that exactly what has happened in this case then? My original point earlier in the thread, before you jumped all over me with your comments about having all the facts, was that the other guy had been found not guilty. I considered it strange that only one of them had been found guilty and not both.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which facts have i excluded - is there something missing from the website that proves beyond all reasonable doubt that its an open and shut case - is there something missing from all the media reports and the police reports etc 

I have suggested that it appears there is doubt in the case - which considering also the time it took the jury to deliver the verdict is possible they thought as such 

And i have said that some people on the jury service that my brother sat on had already decided the person was guilty ( in the case they were dealing with )

Is it not possible that the young lady gave consent and then changed her mind the next day - as has proven to have happened in other cases ?
		
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The fact about the low rate conviction rate, that I mentioned in the next sentence? Come on, do at least try and follow what people are saying.

No, none of your speculation is possible because all these arguments were tested in court and he was found guilty.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			No, it absolutely is not. I really hope that was just careless use of the word "mitigating".

No matter how drunk someone is you don't have any right to cheat, rob, assault, murder or even rape them.
		
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I would appreciate  you should read all my post again and read lines 4/5&6 , then read all the paragraph you so specificaly paraphrased from 

i did not say it was mitigating circumstance in what happened, it never can be , 

 i said in the case , if you cant remember something how on earth can you give factual evidence..(perhaps lost in translation or Court Case not clearly enough stated by me  )

I am currently awaiting to give witness evidence in an assault case that i didnt even witness ive no idea what happened , should my evidence be taken ?

(For the record ... there was an incident in the pub with 2 regulars , both were put out seperately , a row ensued further up the town 1 hour later wher  one got assaulted, i didnt see it and dont know what happened so how can my evidence stand up ?)


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			The fact about the low rate conviction rate, that I mentioned in the next sentence? Come on, do at least try and follow what people are saying.

No, none of your speculation is possible because all these arguments were tested in court and he was found guilty.
		
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Sorry but each case should be treated on its own merit 

Sorry but of course the speculation is possible - it's happened before has it not ?

The young lady said she couldn't remember - not that she said no but she couldn't remember so the possibilities of what could have happened are valid


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 18, 2014)

Did anybody read post number 130?

Just wondering


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			He has served his time and should be allowed to play football , not as if he's going to rape someone while playing or is he. 
 20 years ago Duncan Ferguson was jailed for an assault that took place on the playing field, and he was allowed to carry on playing after his released.
		
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Don't see the relevance with the offence Ferguson committed, who in fact apologised and accepted redponsibility, and Rape. If a footballer commits offences against a child should they be allowed to play again? 
Putting all offences in one category is very dangerous


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			I would appreciate  you should read all my post again and read lines 4/5&6 , then read all the paragraph you so specificaly paraphrased from 

i did not say it was mitigating circumstance in what happened, it never can be , 

 i said in the case , if you cant remember something how on earth can you give factual evidence..(perhaps lost in translation or Court Case not clearly enough stated by me  )

I am currently awaiting to give witness evidence in an assault case that i didnt even witness ive no idea what happened , should my evidence be taken ?

(For the record ... there was an incident in the pub with 2 regulars , both were put out seperately , a row ensued further up the town 1 hour later , i didnt see it and dont know what happened so how can my evidence stand up ?)
		
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I read and fully understood your post, which is why I assumed you didn't really mean "mitigating circumstance" even though that was the phrase you used. I hoped you'd clarify what you actually meant.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I read and fully understood your post, which is why I assumed you didn't really mean "mitigating circumstance" even though that was the phrase you used. I hoped you'd clarify what you actually meant.
		
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Lost in translation so .. we are in agreement .. 

I dont know what happened as i said only 3 people will ever know ,, few things that surprised me with the case thats all 

If she couldnt remember , how was her evidence taken into account ?

If she was raped as the court found she was , so he is correctly guilty until proven other wise now ,then  they guy who she went with / took her to the hotel room and let his mate join in is an accomplice and should have been charged ..


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## williamalex1 (Oct 18, 2014)

pauldj42 said:



			Don't see the relevance with the offence Ferguson committed, who in fact apologised and accepted redponsibility, and Rape. If a footballer commits offences against a child should they be allowed to play again? 
Putting all offences in one category is very dangerous
		
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Ferguson was jailed for something football related so that is relevant imo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Ferguson was jailed for something football related so that is relevant imo.
		
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And IMO allowing a convicted Rapist to be glorified on a football pitch is sick!


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			hence why i have asked the question - is there anything not being said - have the courts kept something that the young lady said - is there evidence that we dont know about ? 

The fact there has been mistakes in the justice system is always a reason to be open minded in regards some cases if you believe there is doubt there. 

Why dont you believe him ? He could be telling them truth - it could simply be a case of his word against hers - that itself brings in doubt.

(p.s. - impressed this has stayed a civil debate )
		
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I don't belive him simply on the strength of our judicial system. I'll be honest, when it first came to light I was probably more on his side. Along the lines of "wannabe wag getting bitter". But once the courts found him guilty that's it for me. 

If if he has an appeal and their strong case works I'll hold my hands up. And whilst I fully accept parts may appear work. I am presuming more has been seen in the court. Again only a presumption on my part but I belive unless he gets the decision overturned he's guilty in my eyes. 

Pure his remorse, from what I've seen he hasn't shiwed any at all, even towards how they treated her like entertainment. En again, if he believes he is innocent he'd hardly feel compassion for what she's done.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

pauldj42 said:



			And IMO allowing a convicted Rapist to be glorified on a football pitch is sick!
		
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It's his job? Can accountants only become paperboys if they're convicted?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2014)

Whether we like it or not, Football is a high profile sport that comes with many pro's and cons, one of which is lifestyle and media attention, 
Unfortunately I believe his career is ruined and until he overturns his conviction he should not be allowed to play again,
If a teacher is done for child abuse should they be allowed to teach again or become a paperboy?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

pauldj42 said:



			Whether we like it or not, Football is a high profile sport that comes with many pro's and cons, one of which is lifestyle and mefia attention, 
Unfortunately I believe his career is ruined and until he overturns his conviction he should not be allowed to play again,
If a teacher is done for child abuse should they be allowed to teach again or become a paperboy?
		
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Dont think it can be compared to a teacher and child abuse because they are going back into an environment which will involve children

Once people are released from prison they are able to pursue work - if there are no rule set in place then there is nothing stopping him from carrying on being a footballer - players have returned to the game after prison sentences - so there is no reason why Evans cant return.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2014)

My answer was in response to should accountants become paperboys, There are plenty of jobs were you would be unable to return to.
Part of the "add on's" of his job is lifestyle and unless he becomes a monk after the games it is perceived as lessening his offence.
Him and the teacher will both be on the sex offenders register!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

pauldj42 said:



			My answer was in response to should accountants become paperboys, There are plenty of jobs were you would be unable to return to.
Part of the "add on's" of his job is lifestyle and unless he becomes a monk after the games it is perceived as lessening his offence.
Him and the teacher will both be on the sex offenders register!
		
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Well you would hope that he would certianly not put himself in the same situation as before and act like a saint away from the pitch

Yes he would be on the sex offenders register and will be unable to get a job that will not allow people who are on that register which im not sure which jobs they - i know a young man in MK was placed on the register because on a night out with his mates ( he is a teacher ) he met a young lady in the night club - went back to his etc and they saw each other a few times only to find out she is 15 - lost his job - will never be a teacher again and now struggles for work - i dont know if people ever come off it ?


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

therod said:



			Until then he's a convicted sexual predator that should be rehabilitated before he can move on.
		
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You sound like a broken record in this thread. 

FWIW I don't agree with a single post of yours, how the jury didn't come back with "reasonable doubt" is beyond common sense.




			Q6. If the complainant made no allegation of rape or indeed any sexual activity, why did the North Wales police launch a rape investigation?

A. The complainant initially reported to the police that she believed â€˜her drink had been spikedâ€™.  It was only after informing the police that the complainant had stayed in a room in the Premier Inn that had been booked for two footballers, that the police escalated the enquiry to a rape enquiry.   This was only 14 minutes after taking the call and without interviewing either the complainant or the suspects.

Toxicology reports proved that there was no trace of any date rape drug in her system only traces of cannabis and cocaine.
		
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Out of interest what *IS* the rehabilitation that you keep mentioning for a rapist?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well you would hope that he would certianly not put himself in the same situation as before and act like a saint away from the pitch
		
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Forgive us if we don't all share your faith in the future behaviour of a man who raped a drunk teenager yet maintains he did nothing wrong.

Phil, I've read some of his website and am actually more astounded than before at your defence of the man. Even the "facts" as presented there to shed the best possible light on his version of events paint a damning picture of a sexual predator.


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Even the "facts" as presented there to shed the best possible light on his version of events paint a damning picture of a sexual predator.
		
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Sexual predator.... or a rapist?

Wanting to get laid isn't a crime, wanting to have (what some people might consider) 'pervy' sex isn't either.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Forgive us if we don't all share your faith in the future behaviour of a man who raped a drunk teenager yet maintains he did nothing wrong.

Phil, I've read some of his website and am actually more astounded than before at your defence of the man. Even the "facts" as presented there to shed the best possible light on his version of events paint a damning picture of a sexual predator.
		
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Yes him and his mates possibly go out at night to find girls to sleep with - if thats what a sexual predator is called then thats most men and in fact ladies who possibly go out looking for someone to sleep with and some looking to find a nice catch like a footballer.

You are quite happy to point out the bits in the website that im missing that confirm his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt  

Evans might well regret getting himself into the situation he did but if he still believe he is innocent then surely he can still pursue that.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Sexual predator.... or a rapist?

Wanting to get laid isn't a crime, wanting to have (what some people might consider) 'pervy' sex isn't either.
		
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It isn't no. Wanting to get laid so much that you'll bluff your way into a hotel room, have sex with a drunk teenager and then sneak out down the fire escape sounds pretty much like a crime to me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			It isn't no. Wanting to get laid so much that you'll bluff your way into a hotel room, have sex with a drunk teenager and then sneak out down the fire escape sounds pretty much like a crime to me.
		
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Wasnt it his hotel room ? Wouldnt be the first to have sex with a teenager who was drunk - either male or female 

No idea why he wanted to avoid the receptionist when the porter already saw him


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

For the record:

 When someone is sentenced less than 1 year then they only serve HALF the time, if their sentence is over 1 year then they STILL only serve half the time but are released ON LICENCE for the remainder.
http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing/determinate-prison-sentences.htm

He has served enough time as is necessary BY LAW..... so wind your necks in with that regard.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes him and his mates possibly go out at night to find girls to sleep with - if thats what a sexual predator is called then thats most men and in fact ladies who possibly go out looking for someone to sleep with and some looking to find a nice catch like a footballer.

You are quite happy to point out the bits in the website that im missing that confirm his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt  

Evans might well regret getting himself into the situation he did but if he still believe he is innocent then surely he can still pursue that.
		
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Well a court of law found him guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, which you seem to want to ignore.

He lied to get into the hotel room.
He claims his pal asked the victim if it was ok for him to "join in". The pal denies this, says Evans asked, which Evans denies.
He sneaked out down the fire escape afterwards.

And this is the events as depicted in his own website, so this is the best possible light he can shine on it.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wasnt it his hotel room ? Wouldnt be the first to have sex with a teenager who was drunk - either male or female 

No idea why he wanted to avoid the receptionist when the porter already saw him
		
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No, it was his friend's room.


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Wanting to get laid so much that you'll bluff your way into a hotel room, have sex with a drunk teenager and then sneak out down the fire escape sounds pretty much like a crime to me.
		
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Only if she says "No." 




If she can't remember what she said then there should be reasonable doubt.... possibly even more so considering she'd already had sex with one guy who DIDN'T get done.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Well a court of law found him guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, which you seem to want to ignore.

He lied to get into the hotel room.
*He claims his pal asked the victim if it was ok for him to "join in". The pal denies this, says Evans asked, which Evans denies*.
He sneaked out down the fire escape afterwards.

And this is the events as depicted in his own website, so this is the best possible light he can shine on it.
		
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Where did you get that from ?

That seems different from what i have read 

*. At this point according to the evidence of both Clayton and Ched the question of whether Ched could â€œjoin inâ€ was asked of the complainant, they both said that she replied with a positive â€œyeahâ€*

 I havent seen anywhere that says that his mate said that he didnt ask ?

The hotel room was booked with Evans credit card ? and no idea why he went down the fire escape but is that a sign of guilt ?


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

O



JustOne said:



			Only if she says "No." 




If she can't remember what she said then there should be reasonable doubt.... possibly even more so considering she'd already had sex with one guy who DIDN'T get done.
		
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Really? I mean I don't want to sound all old fashioned. But I'd imagine more woman have had sex with one woman at a time. Than finished one off and called "next"!  

There re may well be reasonable doubt. But the argument that she's had sex with one so was obviously up for it with the next appears flawed to me.


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			There re may well be reasonable doubt. But the argument that she's had sex with one so was obviously up for it with the next appears flawed to me.
		
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I'm not saying that she was/would/necessarily be up for it with the next.... but the testimony says that she agreed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			O

Really? I mean I don't want to sound all old fashioned. But I'd imagine more woman have had sex with one woman at a time. Than finished one off and called "next"!  

There re may well be reasonable doubt. *But the argument that she's had sex with one so was obviously up for it with the next appears flawed to me.*

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I agree with that - but in the prosecution they stated that she was in no fit state to give consent 

*The prosecution case was that the victim did not truly consent to sex, and that â€˜neither man reasonably believed she was consentingâ€™.

She was so drunk she was in no fit state to say â€˜yesâ€™*.

So why only one verdict of guilty ?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 18, 2014)

Guys, starting to get more explicit.
Can we avoid this please
Thanks


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Only if she says "No." 




If she can't remember what she said then there should be reasonable doubt.... possibly even more so considering she'd already had sex with one guy who DIDN'T get done.
		
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Not true as stated previously on this thread, if a persons is incoherent to answer then it's Rape, the victim doesn't actually have to say the words!


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## AmandaJR (Oct 18, 2014)

Not read the whole thread but in relation to the OP I think he should be allowed to continue in his chosen profession pre prison. It has no relevance to the crime unlike child abuser/teacher etc. Not sure how else the guy could make a living and surely rehabilitation is about criminals being given a second chance and the opportunity to become a worthwhile member of society...part of that is earning a living.

Having seen recently how tough it's proving for my nephew to make a fresh start...how restrictive being out on license is and how difficult the probation service are to deal with then I don't think life will suddenly be a bed of roses for him.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I agree with that - but in the prosecution they stated that she was in no fit state to give consent 

*The prosecution case was that the victim did not truly consent to sex, and that â€˜neither man reasonably believed she was consentingâ€™.

She was so drunk she was in no fit state to say â€˜yesâ€™*.

So why only one verdict of guilty ?
		
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my only thought would be that as she travelled with the first bloke it at least appered my consensual. The whole idea of 'joining in' seems vague when out alongside the fact that she wasn't able to give consent.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where did you get that from ?

That seems different from what i have read 

*. At this point according to the evidence of both Clayton and Ched the question of whether Ched could â€œjoin inâ€ was asked of the complainant, they both said that she replied with a positive â€œyeahâ€*

 I havent seen anywhere that says that his mate said that he didnt ask ?

The hotel room was booked with Evans credit card ? and no idea why he went down the fire escape but is that a sign of guilt ?
		
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I suggest you try reading the website again, with the blinkers off. You only need to go about a sentence further than what you quoted. 

And, yes, I'd suggest that sneaking out the fire escape is a pretty suspicious thing to do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I suggest you try reading the website again, with the blinkers off. You only need to go about a sentence further than what you quoted. 

And, yes, I'd suggest that sneaking out the fire escape is a pretty suspicious thing to do.
		
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Ah right yes - they couldnt remember who asked the question but both agreed that the question was asked 

yes he wanted to avoid the receptionist - not sure why maybe he didnt want them to know he was leaving the room ? It doesnt mean he is guilty because of the way he left.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			Not read the whole thread but in relation to the OP I think he should be allowed to continue in his chosen profession pre prison. It has no relevance to the crime unlike child abuser/teacher etc. Not sure how else the guy could make a living and surely rehabilitation is about criminals being given a second chance and the opportunity to become a worthwhile member of society...part of that is earning a living.

Having seen recently how tough it's proving for my nephew to make a fresh start...how restrictive being out on license is and how difficult the probation service are to deal with then I don't think life will suddenly be a bed of roses for him.
		
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I believe it is the profile and lifestyle that is key to the emotion in this case, it may not affect 90 minutes on the pitch but the adoration and doors it opens could be an issue, and surely the first step of rehabilitation is remorse of which he's shown none,
I think some of us will have to agree to disagree,


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			not sure why maybe he didnt want them to know he was leaving the room ? It doesnt mean he is guilty because of the way he left.
		
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I have wanted to leave many rooms via fire-exit, you can pick up some ugly ones at 3am...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			my only thought would be that as she travelled with the first bloke it at least appered my consensual. The whole idea of 'joining in' seems vague when out alongside the fact that she wasn't able to give consent.
		
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Its one of the most confusing things about it - when i first started to read up on it i didnt at first realise that his friend was found not guilty - for the prosecution to state she was in no fit way to give consent - which is a solid and fair argument but then to only convict one of the men ?


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2014)

Perhaps one of the questions should be why on earth did the other guy get found innocent? Why did the other guy text Evans? Why did he let Evans into the room? Why did he let Evans have sex with her?

Quite frankly, I'd have gone for guilty for both of them. And the court case wasn't a quick 5 mins, thanks very much you're guilty.

So should Evans now be able to resume his career? Since when did it become a life sentence?

All that aside, I think rape should carry a minimum of a 10yr sentence, with no parole till that 10 yrs is spent.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Its one of the most confusing things about it - when i first started to read up on it i didnt at first realise that his friend was found not guilty - for the prosecution to state she was in no fit way to give consent - which is a solid and fair argument but then to only convict one of the men ?
		
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I do find it weird hiw only one not the other. Unless in court she has said he liked the first bloke. That she had said at some point she'd go back with him. But I have no idea other than that the court have decided her actions (travelling with him) can be considered consent. 

Pure people saying abiut him wanting to sneak out. Even if didn't consider it rape. He has a partner and probably wanted to make as little a scene as possible.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I do find it weird hiw only one not the other. Unless in court she has said he liked the first bloke. That she had said at some point she'd go back with him. But I have no idea other than that the court have decided her actions (travelling with him) can be considered consent. 

Pure people saying abiut him wanting to sneak out. Even if didn't consider it rape. He has a partner and probably wanted to make as little a scene as possible.
		
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thats the thing - she cant remember anything after 3am  before she met the guys - the suspicion being that she was drugged which is all too common these days 

And the reason he gave for sneaking out was to do with his g/f


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

I thought this was an interesting read...
http://www.chedevans.com/key-and-undisputed-facts


Sooner or later we'll just have to ask for written consent, or video the whole process


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

JustOne said:



			I thought this was an interesting read...
http://www.chedevans.com/key-and-undisputed-facts


Sooner or later we'll just have to ask for written consent, or video the whole process 

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Or maybe just not have sex with teenagers you find falling down drunk on the street in the early hours.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Perhaps one of the questions should be why on earth did the other guy get found innocent? Why did the other guy text Evans? Why did he let Evans into the room? Why did he let Evans have sex with her?

Quite frankly, I'd have gone for guilty for both of them. And the court case wasn't a quick 5 mins, thanks very much you're guilty.

So should Evans now be able to resume his career? Since when did it become a life sentence?

All that aside, I think rape should carry a minimum of a 10yr sentence, with no parole till that 10 yrs is spent.
		
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From the account on Evans on website, in my opinion both were guilty of rape. However, the way each came to be in the hotel room with her were very different. Accordingly one got away with it due to "reasonable doubt", whereas there was no doubt about the other.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Or maybe just not have sex with teenagers you find falling down drunk on the street in the early hours.
		
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Well at the time Evans was 22/23 so will be having sex with people around that age - thats not a crime itself is it.


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## c1973 (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Or maybe just not have sex with teenagers you find falling down drunk on the street in the early hours.
		
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Fair and reasonable comment. 



What if the guy is also 'falling down drunk' though? Would he be able to press charges if he decided he wasn't in a fit state to consent? Just a thought.


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## c1973 (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			From the account on Evans on website, in my opinion both were guilty of rape. However, the way each came to be in the hotel room with her were very different. Accordingly one *got away with it* due to "reasonable doubt", whereas there was no doubt about the other.
		
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It's interesting that you have used the 'old adage of innocent until proven guilty' earlier in the thread then use the term 'got away with it' to describe someone found not guilty. The implication being he was guilty but 'got away with it'. 

Emotive subject matter being discussed here that will polarize opinion.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well at the time Evans was 22/23 so will be having sex with people around that age - thats not a crime itself is it.
		
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You're unbelievable. Forget the finer points of law and the court's verdict,  do you even think he did anything wrong?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

c1973 said:



			It's interesting that you have used the 'old adage of innocent until proven guilty' earlier in the thread then use the term 'got away with it' to describe someone found not guilty. The implication being he was guilty but 'got away with it'. 

Emotive subject matter being discussed here that will polarize opinion.
		
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Only been forced there by people suggesting that if one was innocent the other must be too. I respect the courts decision on both, just trying to account for the apparent disparity.


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Or maybe just not have sex with teenagers you find falling down drunk on the street in the early hours.
		
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Older women would be OK then? :mmm:


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Older women would be OK then? :mmm:
		
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Don't be an arse.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're unbelievable. Forget the finer points of law and the court's verdict,  do you even think he did anything wrong?
		
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Sorry but what is unbelievable about a 22/23 having sex with a teenager ? ( obviously we are talking above the age of consent ) 

I was 23 and met a girl of 18 on a night out both of us where very drunk etc and then we were together for 3 years 

And do i think Evans did anything wrong - yes i do - i believe he was stupid to put himself into the position and acted like and idiot 

As for being guilty of rape - i dont know because i see doubt within the whole thing


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what is unbelievable about a 22/23 having sex with a teenager ? ( obviously we are talking above the age of consent ) 

I was 23 and met a girl of 18 on a night out both of us where very drunk etc and then we were together for 3 years 

And do i think Evans did anything wrong - yes i do - i believe he was stupid to put himself into the position and acted like and idiot 

As for being guilty of rape - i dont know because i see doubt within the whole thing
		
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So stupid and an idiot but not actually morally wrong in any way?


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## JustOne (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			...do you even think he did anything wrong?
		
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I don't. They both gave statements probably *not even knowing* that she had no recollection of events, their own honest statement of events got one put in prison. They were *not to know* that she would wake up and not be able to remember anything.

If I get smashed down the pub with the missus tonight, we fall into bed laughing as we rip each others clothes off and she wakes up not being able to remember what we did when we got home have I just raped her? I'm hoping the answer is no.... as she can hardly remember most nights


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

JustOne said:



			I don't. They both gave statements probably *not even knowing* that she had no recollection of events, their own honest statement of events got one put in prison. They were *not to know* that she would wake up and not be able to remember anything.

If I get smashed down the pub with the missus tonight, we fall into bed laughing as we rip each others clothes off and she wakes up not being able to remember what we did when we got home have I just raped her? I'm hoping the answer is no.... as she can hardly remember most nights 

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Wow, I'm genuinely surprised anyone would say that.

I don't think you having sex with your wife is in any way analogous to the events of that night.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			So stupid and an idiot but not actually morally wrong in any way?
		
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Yes you could say he was morally wrong if having a threesome is consider against peoples morals then yes


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## c1973 (Oct 18, 2014)

JustOne said:



			I don't. They both gave statements probably not even knowing that she had no recollection of events, their own honest statement of events got one put in prison. They were *not to know* that she would wake up and not be able to remember anything.

*If I get smashed down the pub with the missus tonight, we fall into bed laughing as we rip each others clothes off and she wakes up not being able to remember what we did when we got home have I just raped her? *I'm hoping the answer is no.... as she can hardly remember most nights 

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And as I've already asked, if the bloke is too drunk to give consent (implied or otherwise) would the girl be charged? I don't think she would, which shows a disparity between the two sexes in the eyes of the law. However that's another argument.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes you could say he was morally wrong if having a threesome is consider against peoples morals then yes
		
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That wasn't what I meant.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 18, 2014)

Ok guys, it's getting a bit silly now, proposing to close the thread unless someone comes up with a different angle on the topic as it's been going round in circles for a while now


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## c1973 (Oct 18, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok guys, it's getting a bit silly now, proposing to close the thread unless someone comes up with a different angle on the topic as it's been going round in circles for a while now
		
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Think that's ridiculous, it seems to me to be a reasoned debate with differing opinions on an emotive subject. No personal attacks etc, why close it?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

c1973 said:



			And as I've already asked, if the bloke is too drunk to give consent (implied or otherwise) would the girl be charged? I don't think she would, which shows a disparity between the two sexes in the eyes of the law. However that's another argument.
		
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Seriously? Come off it.


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## c1973 (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seriously? Come off it.
		
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What's the difference?  It's not just the fairer sex that get so drunk they're not in complete control of their decision making process.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok guys, it's getting a bit silly now, proposing to close the thread unless someone comes up with a different angle on the topic as it's been going round in circles for a while now
		
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Seems fair enough, positions are entrenched, poster's different attitudes towards rape made clear, only arguing now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			That wasn't what I meant.
		
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Genuine question then - what do you mean ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems fair enough, positions are entrenched, *poster's different attitudes towards rape made clear*, only arguing now.
		
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Sorry Phil and sorry but that comment is not fair at all 

My attitude towards rape is the same as its always been - its disgusting and would like to see a stronger sentence.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 18, 2014)

Thread closed

Its following a downward spiral, people are starting to insult others, and replies are getting more extreme and explicit.

the next step would be  handbags at 10 paces with possibly infractions given out , now avoided


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