# Smacking children, should you do it.



## Tashyboy (Sep 12, 2018)

Just watching breakfast tv and there a woman on who says we should ban smacking gave a load or reasons why. Says raising your eyebrows works for her. Loads of folk support the proposed ban. Loads of folks say it should remain as it is.

Thoughts please.


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## user2010 (Sep 12, 2018)

Give 'em a clout, never did me or my siblings any long term harm.


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## Hobbit (Sep 12, 2018)

Ban it. There's enough evidence of modern families not doing it and their children are very well behaved. Those that are feral probably need something more than a clip.

I was well and truly clipped as a kid, excessively so, with whatever my mother could reach. Love her loads, miss her every day but she well and truly got that wrong.


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## Kellfire (Sep 12, 2018)

I personally think that done properly, smacking is a good thing. It's simple human nature that we can't evolve out of - we associate pain with something being wrong. You can't reason with a child below a certain age, but you can teach them to expect mild pain if they do wrong.


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2018)

i would suppose its all down to context. one of my neighbors life would be greatly improved is she gave those two brats of hers a smack once in a while.


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2018)

This discussion always goes the same way, but for me - I was never hit as a kid not even once and I would never ever lay a hand on my son.  

I 100% disagree with the notion that you're unable to reason with a child and I will never ever agree that placing physical harm on your own flesh and blood is a solution to anything.  A childs behavior and their understanding of whats right and wrong is a direct reflection of how they have been raised.


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## User20205 (Sep 12, 2018)

I donâ€™t know how you ban it in the home. Itâ€™s unenforceable. That said, I wouldnâ€™t hit my kids, but bring yours up as you see fit.


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## Kellfire (Sep 12, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			This discussion always goes the same way, but for me - I was never hit as a kid not even once and I would never ever lay a hand on my son. 

I 100% disagree with the notion that you're unable to reason with a child and I will never ever agree that placing physical harm on your own flesh and blood is a solution to anything.  A childs behavior and their understanding of whats right and wrong is a direct reflection of how they have been raised.
		
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Smacking a child does not mean harming the child. If you truly believe you have a child capable of rationalising the way an adult can then well done, you've produced the next step in human evolution.


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## Orikoru (Sep 12, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			I personally think that done properly, smacking is a good thing. It's simple human nature that we can't evolve out of - we associate pain with something being wrong. You can't reason with a child below a certain age, but you can teach them to expect mild pain if they do wrong.
		
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Agree. Obviously there is a line you don't cross. No one is suggesting people should punch their children in the ribs and whatnot. But we're talking about a quick slap on the bum or leg with a palm, in extreme instances of them not doing as their told. As you say, it works because of conditioning and I don't think it would do any lasting damage. And you're not doing it daily, it should be a rarity, where no other method of discipline has worked.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 12, 2018)

Ban it. No need for it. If you are hitting your child then you are sending them a message that violence is acceptable as a method of control. Plenty of ways to control behaviour without hitting children.


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## Kellfire (Sep 12, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Agree. Obviously there is a line you don't cross. No one is suggesting people should punch their children in the ribs and whatnot. But we're talking about a quick slap on the bum or leg with a palm, in extreme instances of them not doing as their told. As you say, it works because of conditioning and I don't think it would do any lasting damage. And you're not doing it daily, it should be a rarity, where no other method of discipline has worked.
		
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Exactly. It's not a first resort. It's not a simple fix.

Child is reaching up to a hot stove they've been warned to stay away from previously, about to seriously hurt themselves. Instinct takes over - you slap their hands back. Proportionate. Reasonable. No damage.


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2018)

Just tell them off like the lady in Tesco, Kingston Park last week.
â€œJack, youâ€™re doing my effing head in, will you shut the eff upâ€.


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## Slab (Sep 12, 2018)

Canâ€™t really ban something like that (it would be like trying to ban swearing) but as a society it should be discouraged (sure ban it in public) 

Itâ€™s simply a punishment for doing something wrong, I donâ€™t see it has having any value as a teaching method though


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Agree. Obviously there is a line you don't cross. No one is suggesting people should punch their children in the ribs and whatnot. But we're talking about a quick slap on the bum or leg with a palm, in extreme instances of them not doing as their told. As you say, it works because of conditioning and I don't think it would do any lasting damage. And you're not doing it daily, it should be a rarity, where no other method of discipline has worked.
		
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The problem comes when the line is crossed, who decides that? Certainly not the child!
Is it a quick slap from a 15 stone bloke or an 8 stone bloke!


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## Orikoru (Sep 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			The problem comes when the line is crossed, who decides that? Certainly not the child!
Is it a quick slap from a 15 stone bloke or an 8 stone bloke!
		
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Well it's pretty obvious. It shouldn't be so hard that it leaves a mark. A closed fist for example would leave bruising. Repeated slapping would leave a red mark there. Anything above one quick, short slap on a limb is overstepping really.

I mean, I agree with the others saying it's almost impossible to police what goes on in people's homes anyway. I'm just voicing my own view of what I would say is ok.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 12, 2018)

Ban parents smacking their children, but ok for strangers/neighbours/other family members to do it though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Well it's pretty obvious. It shouldn't be so hard that it leaves a mark. A closed fist for example would leave bruising. Repeated slapping would leave a red mark there. Anything above one quick, short slap on a limb is overstepping really.

I mean, I agree with the others saying it's almost impossible to police what goes on in people's homes anyway. I'm just voicing my own view of what I would say is ok.
		
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Again, youâ€™re deciding whatâ€™s ok as a fully grown adult, not the child on the receiving end, little tap, no problem? What if the child doesnâ€™t learn? Bit harder next time?
You could be the best most tolerant dad in the world, next door maybe not?
I totally agree itâ€™s impossible to police behind closed doors, but if as a society we deemed it wrong, maybe eventually attitudes would change.
Weâ€™ve allowed it as a form of discipline for centuries, has it worked though? We have more violence in society, more domestic abuse, more child abuse, maybe, just maybe conditioning people to physical punishment doesnâ€™t work.


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## Orikoru (Sep 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Again, youâ€™re deciding whatâ€™s ok as a fully grown adult, not the child on the receiving end, little tap, no problem? What if the child doesnâ€™t learn? Bit harder next time?
You could be the best most tolerant dad in the world, next door maybe not?
I totally agree itâ€™s impossible to police behind closed doors, but if as a society we deemed it wrong, maybe eventually attitudes would change.
Weâ€™ve allowed it as a form of discipline for centuries, has it worked though? We have more violence in society, more domestic abuse, more child abuse, maybe, just maybe conditioning people to physical punishment doesnâ€™t work.
		
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Well what does work then? Every parent and every child is different. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, if all other forms of discipline have failed, with a particularly unruly child (obviously), then a quick light slap is understandable and acceptable. I'm not going to analyse whether this has helped our society over centuries, in the grand scheme of things, no parent gives a toss about that, they just want their kid to bloody behave. I'm not a parent, so I don't have experience of being in that situation, so I can only say what I would view as acceptable.

I can only remember one occasion when I was young that my dad gave me a slap, and he told me (years later of course) that he really regretted doing it afterwards. I must have been acting up something awful!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Well what does work then? Every parent and every child is different. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, if all other forms of discipline have failed, with a particularly unruly child (obviously), then a quick light slap is understandable and acceptable. I'm not going to analyse whether this has helped our society over centuries, in the grand scheme of things, no parent gives a toss about that, they just want their kid to bloody behave. I'm not a parent, so I don't have experience of being in that situation, so I can only say what I would view as acceptable.

I can only remember one occasion when I was young that my dad gave me a slap, and he told me (years later of course) that he really regretted doing it afterwards. I must have been acting up something awful! 

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Itâ€™s all about opinions, chill out.
Now were talking about smacking a particularly unruly child after all other forms of discipline have failed, for some itâ€™s the first step.
Your dad probably regretted it because afterwards he realised heâ€™d lost control (probably due to you pushing the boundaries) and if he had a chance again heâ€™d of handled it differently.
Weâ€™re all human and we all have a breaking point, but violence to kids if never the answer.


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## Orikoru (Sep 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s all about opinions, chill out.
*Now were talking about smacking a particularly unruly child after all other forms of discipline have failed, for some itâ€™s the first step.*
Your dad probably regretted it because afterwards he realised heâ€™d lost control (probably due to you pushing the boundaries) and if he had a chance again heâ€™d of handled it differently.
Weâ€™re all human and we all have a breaking point, but violence to kids if never the answer.
		
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This is what I said all along. Obviously it should not be anything other than last resort, and it definitely shouldn't be a regular occurrence.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

I know mate, but as Iâ€™ve tried to show, last resort is when people are at their wits end and over react.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 12, 2018)

Iâ€™ve never properly smacked any of my 3 girls, but have given them a clip round the ear on occasion, mostly if they were doing something stupid like playing with matches or if I thought they werenâ€™t listening to what I was saying when being told off.

I was smacked as a kid , probably deserved it, 

As long as kids have guidelines and know the consequences of overstepping then proper smacking isnâ€™t necessary


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

Discipline is one thing, abusing a child is totally different. If people cannot draw the line then they probably shouldn't be raising children in the first place.

Do I think kids are worse behaved now compared to when I was one.....yes I do and the stories my (teacher) girlfriend tells me every evening confirm that.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ban it. No need for it. *If you are hitting your child then you are sending them a message that violence is acceptable* as a method of control. Plenty of ways to control behaviour without hitting children.
		
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No you're not....beating a child is violence but a clip on the behind isn't.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 12, 2018)

My dad never hit me but he did ground me a lot.
No games consoles etc in them days so solitary in my bedroom was not nice.
On the fence re smacking , never hit mine but they were quite well behaved .
I do wince when I see grown men / women hitting children so maybe falling on banning side.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			No you're not....beating a child is violence but a clip on the behind isn't.
		
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Disagree. You are hitting someone, plain and simple. You are showing, as an adult, that hitting someone is an acceptable option.  If you show a child that then how do you expect them to react next time they are confronted with a problem with another child?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Disagree. You are hitting someone, plain and simple. You are showing, as an adult, that hitting someone is an acceptable option.  If you show a child that then how do you expect them to react next time they are confronted with a problem with another child?
		
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Fine...you have your opinion and I'll have mine.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 12, 2018)

Both my daughters received a smack across the back of their legs on the veryrare occasion. Didnâ€™t harm them,and they donâ€™t feel harmed or damaged now.
I donâ€™t see a problem with use of a slap for proportionate behaviour, reasoning with a toddler isnâ€™t possible in my mind.


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## TheDiablo (Sep 12, 2018)

Smacking is simply a quick fix, a means for the parent to get a 'result' quickly. Short term gain for the parent, with overwhelming evidence pointing to potential for long term harm for the child. It's often a reflection of the current state of mind of the parent rather than the actions of the child (bad day at work, personal issues, money worries etc)

'Punish' a child by smacking? - well guess what happens next time they are in a social situation where they have the upper hand power wise but aren't necessarily getting what they want - they use something they have learnt from authority - violence.

I personally can't imagine a scenario whereby it would be acceptable for me or my wife to punish our child physically. As my view is that children shouldn't be smacked, then if it were to happen in my life as a parent I would consider myself to be entirely at fault.


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## nickjdavis (Sep 12, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			Ban parents smacking their children, but ok for strangers/neighbours/other family members to do it though. 

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My uncles young son was messing about in a park...chasing pigeons absolutely nothing serious but not taking any notice of his parents telling him to stop...a stranger decided to stop him and smacked him on the arm. My uncle then got hold of his son, smacked him, made him go and sit with his mum and then turned and decked the stranger.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 12, 2018)

Love the comments where people say "it never did me no harm" yes it did it made you an argumentative ----t.


TheDiablo said:



			Smacking is simply a quick fix, a means for the parent to get a 'result' quickly. Short term gain for the parent, with overwhelming evidence pointing to potential for long term harm for the child. It's often a reflection of the current state of mind of the parent rather than the actions of the child (bad day at work, personal issues, money worries etc)

'Punish' a child by smacking? - well guess what happens next time they are in a social situation where they have the upper hand power wise but aren't necessarily getting what they want - they use something they have learnt from authority - violence.

I personally can't imagine a scenario whereby it would be acceptable for me or my wife to punish our child physically. As my view is that children shouldn't be smacked, then if it were to happen in my life as a parent I would consider myself to be entirely at fault.
		
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Spot on.
Weak parent syndrome


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2018)

Absolutely not.  You might achieve a short term result - but you have no idea what long term harm might result - something I have personal experience of, and that did not come out until doing some serious self-investigation and reflection over the last few years.

Others might look at me and my life and say I've done pretty well, that I've got it pretty good and have all my life - that I am lucky to have the wife and family I have. Well all of that might well be (and is) true - and so on the surface the strict regime I was brought up in and that others know nothing of might not seem to have done me any harm - but they do not know of my largely hidden personal struggles as teenager and as an adult - they cannot see inside my head.

Fortunately today I have come to recognise the issues from my past and accept them and forgive...but do not be mistaken - 'it never did me any harm' might be OK for some - but it does not apply for all - and we are talking here of laws that must apply for all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2018)

Iâ€™m new to all this parenting lark but I can never ever see any situation that will justify inflicting any sort of physical pain in my own child - there is nothing she can do that will make me think that Iâ€™m going to give you a little slap. Im sure there will be plenty of times when she will test my patience but smacking ? Nope never , I would hope Society is Past that now. If it ever got to the stage of hitting then I wold have lost respect for myself and any respect for my little girl.


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## Slab (Sep 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely not.  You might achieve a short term result - but you have no idea what long term harm might result - something I have personal experience of, and that did not come out until doing some serious self-investigation and reflection over the last few years.

Others might look at me and my life and say I've done pretty well, that I've got it pretty good and have all my life - that I am lucky to have the wife and family I have. Well all of that might well be (and is) true - and so on the surface the strict regime I was brought up in and that others know nothing of might not seem to have done me any harm - but they do not know of my largely hidden personal struggles as teenager and as an adult - they cannot see inside my head.

Fortunately today I have come to recognise the issues from my past and accept them and forgive...but do not be mistaken - 'it never did me any harm' might be OK for some - but it does not apply for all - and we are talking here of laws that must apply for all.
		
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I cant know of course but that sounds a fair bit more serious than a smack


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m new to all this parenting lark but I can never ever see any situation that will justify inflicting any sort of physical pain in my own child - there is nothing she can do that will make me think that Iâ€™m going to give you a little slap. Im sure there will be plenty of times when she will test my patience but smacking ? Nope never , I would hope Society is Past that now. If it ever got to the stage of hitting then I wold have lost respect for myself and any respect for my little girl.
		
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How old is your daughter now Phil? Wait till she gets to about 4 or 5 and really starts trying to push your boundaries  

And like I said in an earlier post,  I really don't think ANYONE is advocating inflicting pain or a beating on a child. A smack isn't pain, it is more of a 'shock' therapy to make a child realise that they have reached the limit. Once you start inflicting pain it is no longer a smack.


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			A smack isn't pain, it is more of a 'shock' therapy to make a child realise that they have reached the limit. Once you start inflicting pain it is no longer a smack.
		
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that's where I think the lines blur for people - for me I see that as the parent making an excuse for being allowed to physically abuse their child, in my eyes no matter how you dress it up it is a physical attack and I personally would never do it.  But to a lot of people it is "normal" and ok because thats how they were bought up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2018)

Slab said:



			I cant know of course but that sounds a fair bit more serious than a smack
		
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Yes - it was in time more than a little smack - but not at first it wasn't.  And it was pretty rare.  Though I have no evidence I can cite, I suspect that the nature of my father's discipline was little different to that applied by the fathers of many working class West of Scotland families in the 1960s and early 1970s.  It was tough (and I was quite a tough wee lad) - it did not feel fair - it did not seem to damage - but I suspect that it did.  My thinking is simply that from little smacks do bigger issues grow.


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## Don Barzini (Sep 12, 2018)

Smacking a child just shows you're all out of ideas on how to discipline them correctly. And I include myself in that because I've smacked my kids a couple of times. Each time, I was at the end of my tether and I lost control. Felt absolutely awful about it afterwards and have sworn to myself I will never do it again.

Have they been little sods since? Of course they have, so it was no deterrent. What did they learn? That daddy is bigger and stronger than they are and can inflict physical pain on them if he wants to. Nice lesson.

If you smack anyone else in an attempt to discipline them, you can be had up for assault. Why, therefore, anyone should consider it acceptable to smack a child is beyond me.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - it was in time more than a little smack - but not at first it wasn't.  And it was pretty rare.  Though I have no evidence I can cite, I suspect that the nature of my father's discipline was little different to that applied by the fathers of many working class West of Scotland families in the 1960s and early 1970s.  It was tough (and I was quite a tough wee lad) - it did not feel fair - *it did not seem to damage - but I suspect that it did*.  My thinking is simply that from little smacks do bigger issues grow.
		
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So what long term damage do you think this has had on you?


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## JamesR (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			So what long term damage do you think this has had on you?
		
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The HNSP thread says it all, I'm afraid - poor SILH ðŸ˜¢


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## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2018)

Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!
Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!
Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!
Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!

Now let that be a lesson to you Jimmy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			So what long term damage do you think this has had on you?
		
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Sorry - but I suggest that you don't actually need to know the detail - you can just believe me...but it's all stuff in the head - and rooted in self-confidence or lack of it especially when younger.


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2018)

My father was a strict disciplinarian a product no doubt from his father who was a professional Soldier and fought in both world wars. my bother and i both felt the broom on our behinds on more than one occasion.  didn't have any long lasting damage TBH. we knew not cross the line, same at School a major deterrent. we were both very well behaved on the whole as the threat of the Cane was ever looming.


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## Don Barzini (Sep 12, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			My father was a strict disciplinarian a product no doubt from his father who was a professional Soldier and fought in both world wars. my bother and i both felt the broom on our behinds on more than one occasion.  didn't have any long lasting damage TBH. we knew not cross the line, same at School a major deterrent. we were both very well behaved on the whole as the *treat* of the Cane was ever looming.
		
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Oooh you enjoyed it did you! Naughty boy!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			How old is your daughter now Phil? Wait till she gets to about 4 or 5 and really starts trying to push your boundaries  

And like I said in an earlier post,  I really don't think ANYONE is advocating inflicting pain or a beating on a child. A smack isn't pain, it is more of a 'shock' therapy to make a child realise that they have reached the limit. Once you start inflicting pain it is no longer a smack.
		
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What youâ€™re saying makes sense, but how do you legislate for that? Who decides when a smack is painful, you or the child?


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2018)

Don Barzini said:



			Oooh you enjoyed it did you! Naughty boy! 

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i was never caned, it was a great deterrent for me. the though of having your bare arse on show to the whole school, while it was caned was enough to deter me from bad behavior, though had the odd piece of chalk or board rubber thrown at me


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			What youâ€™re saying makes sense, but how do you legislate for that? Who decides when a smack is painful, you or the child?
		
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I guess it comes down to common sense......unfortunately a significant percentage of the population have little or none of that commodity!


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## PieMan (Sep 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Disagree. You are hitting someone, plain and simple. You are showing, as an adult, that hitting someone is an acceptable option.  If you show a child that then how do you expect them to react next time they are confronted with a problem with another child?
		
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Depends on the situation. My youngest was getting a hard time from one of his class mates - mental bullying rather than physical. We took it to the school but it continued as his teacher at the time was weak. So I basically told my son that he had my permission to thump this lad if he wanted to if he was getting to him. Fortunately he didn't have to as he eventually got a teacher who agreed with us and did something about it.

Sometimes standing up for yourself and being physical is the only way to deal with a problem. Where I grew up you had to otherwise you were an easy target.

Re. smacking, I can remember being smacked by both my mum and dad as a child. Did I deserve it? Yes I did. Did they feel bad about it? Yes I would think so. Do I feel or think less of them for smacking me? Of course not - I had a brilliant childhood and they are/were both fantastic parents. But the phrase "wait until your dad gets home" was all I needed to ensure that I stepped back into line pdq

Have I smacked my kids? Yes I have - but only in my own home when they've been fighting with each other. With 2 very active and physical boys, telling them to stop fighting / being rude/abusive / misbehaving, and then threatening to take their gadgets away or trying to reason with them just doesn't work. Did I feel bad about smacking them? Absolutely. Am I any less of a parent? Of course not - I love my boys to bits and I am proud how they are growing up; they are kind and considerate to others, polite and well mannered.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			i was never caned, it was a great deterrent for me. the though of having your bare arse on show to the whole school, while it was caned was enough to deter me from bad behavior, though had the odd piece of chalk or board rubber thrown at me
		
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Exactly the same for me at school.....it was a serious deterrent. Having a parent say "Now then, lets talk about why you kicked that kid in the nuts" is hardly a deterrent.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Depends on the situation. My youngest was getting a hard time from one of his class mates - mental bullying rather than physical. We took it to the school but it continued as his teacher at the time was weak. So I basically told my son that he had my permission to thump this lad if he wanted to if he was getting to him. Fortunately he didn't have to as he eventually got a teacher who agreed with us and did something about it.

Sometimes standing up for yourself and being physical is the only way to deal with a problem. Where I grew up you had to otherwise you were an easy target.

Re. smacking, I can remember being smacked by both my mum and dad as a child. Did I deserve it? Yes I did. Did they feel bad about it? Yes I would think so. Do I feel or think less of them for smacking me? Of course not - I had a brilliant childhood and they are/were both fantastic parents. But the phrase "wait until your dad gets home" was all I needed to ensure that I stepped back into line pdq

Have I smacked my kids? Yes I have - but only in my own home when they've been fighting with each other. With 2 very active and physical boys, telling them to stop fighting / being rude/abusive / misbehaving, and then threatening to take their gadgets away or trying to reason with them just doesn't work. Did I feel bad about smacking them? Absolutely. Am I any less of a parent? Of course not - I love my boys to bits and I am proud how they are growing up; they are kind and considerate to others, polite and well mannered.
		
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Spot on Paul, this thread can be closed now as far as I'm concerned  :thup:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I guess it comes down to common sense......unfortunately a significant percentage of the population have little or none of that commodity!
		
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I see the issue more with babies and at what age smacking starts, the debate has moved on to school age and bullying.
A lot of us on here grew up in a different time when society was more accepting of physical punishment.


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## Captainron (Sep 12, 2018)

I was caned a few times at school and it was deserved every single time! I was also smacked by my folks but only when I had done something really really bad. 

I do not have an issue with smacking when it is deserved.


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2018)

Captainron said:



			I do not have an issue with smacking when it is deserved.
		
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Again thats the deeper issue - I dont think physical punishment is correct for something a child has done wrong.

Maybe thats the way the next phase of this discussion could go..... for those that are ok with a little clip, smack etc what kind of wrong doing do you think is justifiable for a smack?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 12, 2018)

Flippin Eck. My posts usually last about four comments.
Found D4S comments interesting, in essence kids are worse at school now, than when we were kids. But as has been mentioned the cane was a deterrent in the olden days.
Me and Missis T were approved for adoption and in our last meeting I mentioned I had smacked my son. They picked up on it and said " sorry we cannot let you adopt, you might have a child placed in you care who has been physically abused" Missis T said " no problems you can shove your adoption". She also pointed out we could have a child that has been sexually assaulted and that assault started with a cuddle, something we give our kids every night. Are we to now stop cuddling our kids when they go to bed at night. 
I don't think there is a fine line between a smack and physical violence. Ironically the birth mother of adopted daughter then sent a letter with 20 questions one of which said " do you smack you children". Let me tell you if she had been in that room when I read it, there would of been violence. With the injuries her daughter suffered before she was taken into care. She had some balls to ask that question.
I mentioned smacking to Missis T, she recalled an incident in Tycross Zoo years ago. A mother chimpanzee was trying to settle its baby chimp in its straw bed. The baby was proper playing up wanting to play. Mother gave it a clout on its backside. Baby squealed and me and Missis Ts jaws just hit the floor. It was astonishing to see. But it worked .
Re policing it indoors, cannot see how you can, but said woman on telly when asked " if you see a child in a supermarket get a smack for being naughty, what would you do if the law has banned smacking". She said " I would ask the parent, can I help you". Am sure that would help.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Again thats the deeper issue - I dont think physical punishment is correct for something a child has done wrong.
		
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What do you think is the best course of action then?


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## DRW (Sep 12, 2018)

Interesting subject, ever thought that if you are withholding PlayStations or stopping them going out or making children sit on a naughty chair is mental abuse, which it clearly is. Just as smacking is physically abuse apparently......

I have no issues with smacking when needed and clearly of the suitable level, better than having to learn life in the police station due to lack of respect of the 'rules' of life.


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## Rooter (Sep 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!
Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!
Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!
Jimmy, sit on the naughty step.
No!

Now let that be a lesson to you Jimmy.
		
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Been there, but persevered, it has taken about 2 hours to end a 3 minute spell on the naughty matt before, but it does work! Patience works, you give up after 3 attempts you will fail.

I would say my kids are pretty good, but they do push the boundaries and i think they are at there worst for this around 4-6yrs.


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## TheDiablo (Sep 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I see the issue more with babies and at what age smacking starts, the debate has moved on to school age and bullying.
*A lot of us on here grew up in a different time when society was more accepting of physical punishment*.
		
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I think that is the crux of it. Previous generations didn't know the potential harm it can cause and there's no way anyone can blame them.

However, it's all well and good all of the older 'it didnt do me any harm' generation on here saying 'it worked for me' and not having an issue with it. But in reality you should consider yourselves fortunate to not have been negatively effected by it. 

Even putting my moral compass aside for a second, scientific research studies have shown there are no benefits to smacking children - it doesnt result in 'learning' better/different behaviours, yet it has conclusively been linked to slower development, increased aggression, mental health, depression, substance abuse etc. All things that are right at the fore of society in 2018. 

No benefits, lots of negatives and morally questionable. 

As a parent it feels as if every decision you make around raising children is judged and therefore I am loathed to judge any parent, but physical discipline to a powerless child is something I'll never be on board with.


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## Don Barzini (Sep 12, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			in essence kids are worse at school now, than when we were kids.
		
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_"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room."_

- Socrates, 470-399 BC


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## DRW (Sep 12, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			Again lazy parenting,talk to your kids
		
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You mean lazy posting by you IMHO

Did you think about actually adding something to the thread or perhaps replying to my first sentence or do you think it is just rubbish ? You did not even ask how many times I have smacked my son, but by all means you judge away :lol: :wink:


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## pokerjoke (Sep 12, 2018)

DRW said:



			You mean lazy posting by you IMHO

Did you think about actually adding something to the thread or perhaps replying to my first sentence or do you think it is just rubbish ? You did not even ask how many times I have smacked my son, but by all means you judge away :lol: :wink: 

Click to expand...

Actually I deleted my post because I didn't mean to link it to your post but for some reason it got posted, apologies.


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			What do you think is the best course of action then?
		
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My own way of dealing with it is to pull my son to one side where no one can hear and talk really quietly but sternly to him about what he did wrong and what the "punishment" will be  (its the way my mum dealt with me), in my mind he then understands the seriousness of the situation...... he's nearly 6 and so far so good.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			I think that is the crux of it. Previous generations didn't know the potential harm it can cause and there's no way anyone can blame them.

However, it's all well and good all of the older 'it didnt do me any harm' generation on here saying 'it worked for me' and not having an issue with it. But in reality you should consider yourselves fortunate to not have been negatively effected by it.

*Even putting my moral compass aside for a second, scientific research studies have shown there are no benefits to smacking children - it doesnt result in 'learning' better/different behaviours, yet it has conclusively been linked to slower development, increased aggression, mental health, depression, substance abuse etc. All things that are right at the fore of society in 2018.*

No benefits, lots of negatives and morally questionable.

As a parent it feels as if every decision you make around raising children is judged and therefore I am loathed to judge any parent, but physical discipline to a powerless child is something I'll never be on board with.
		
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I think you have kinda shot yourself in the foot with the highlighted bit. Us 'older generation' that were smacked as kids generally have better manners, more respect and a better 'moral compass' than the younger kids of today who have grown up in a society of less smacking and more 'lets discuss your bad behaviour' syndrome.


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## DRW (Sep 12, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			Actually I deleted my post because I didn't mean to link it to your post but for some reason it got posted, apologies.
		
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No worries with me, new forum gremlins  :lol:

This whole subject is such a minefield and just do not think one answer solves everything, would be great if it did, as parenting would be so much easier, its hard. Just ask my parents and most parents, as parents you just want the 'best' for your children but what is the best and how do you get there, still don't have the answer haha.


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## Don Barzini (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I think you have kinda shot yourself in the foot with the highlighted bit. *Us 'older generation' that were smacked as kids generally have better manners, more respect and a better 'moral compass'* than the younger kids of today who have grown up in a society of less smacking and more 'lets discuss your bad behaviour' syndrome.
		
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Any actual hard evidence of this? Or is this just your own perception?


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## TheDiablo (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I think you have kinda shot yourself in the foot with the highlighted bit. Us 'older generation' that were smacked as kids generally have better manners, more respect and a better 'moral compass' than the younger kids of today who have grown up in a society of less smacking and more 'lets discuss your bad behaviour' syndrome.
		
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I've shot myself in the foot by referring to peer reviewed extensive academia as opposed to anecdotal evidence by older golfers? OK then. 

I'd argue the younger generation gave better manners, more respect and a certainly a better moral compass than the older generation. We can all just argue that with anecdotal stories until the cows come home and nobody will have changed their mind.

Every generation believes the ones to follow them behave worse. I couldn't put it any better than Socrates who was quoted by Don Barzini above.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I think you have kinda shot yourself in the foot with the highlighted bit. Us 'older generation' that were smacked as kids generally have better manners, more respect and a better 'moral compass' than the younger kids of today who have grown up in a society of less smacking and more 'lets discuss your bad behaviour' syndrome.
		
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Don't agree with this at all.
I would say I as a kid who was smacked and smacked hard really wanted to make sure I never treated my kids the same way.
Did smacking do me any harm,I would say it did in lots of ways.
Bringing up my kids without smacking has given me great joy,my kids have all been so well behaved and are so well mannered,and this has been mentioned many times in public by people I've never met.
We all see kids that we are glad are not ours because they seem un bearable and seem so badly behaved.
Who knows what goes on behind closed doors or even if the child has mental issues.
IMO and its only an opinion hitting,smacking is wrong because I believe talking is better,whether its the right way who knows but its work for me,and my kids are much politer than I ever was.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2018)

Don Barzini said:



			Any actual hard evidence of this? Or is this just your own perception?
		
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There is plenty of evidence, just try a quick google search. Knife crime at record levels, do you think these crimes are being carried out by us 'silver surfers' or perhaps more likely teens and 20 somethings? God forbid if someone pulls a knife on you in the street but good luck trying to reason with them.


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I think you have kinda shot yourself in the foot with the highlighted bit. Us 'older generation' that were smacked as kids generally have better manners, more respect and a better 'moral compass' than the younger kids of today who have grown up in a society of less smacking and more 'lets discuss your bad behaviour' syndrome.
		
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i don't usually agree with you, but in this instance.. do totally. the behavior of the younger generations appalls me at times


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			There is plenty of evidence, just try a quick google search. Knife crime at record levels, do you think these crimes are being carried out by us 'silver surfers' or perhaps more likely teens and 20 somethings? God forbid if someone pulls a knife on you in the street but good luck trying to reason with them.
		
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I like you, believe society has gone downhill, but arenâ€™t the younger generations our children and grandchildren?
Therefore, is it us who have failed them if our parents got it right with us?


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			I like you, believe society has gone downhill, but arenâ€™t the younger generations our children and grandchildren?
Therefore, is it us who have failed them if our parents got it right with us?
		
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all you lot who won't smack your kids


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## Reemul (Sep 12, 2018)

Smacking is crap and does not work. I was smacked for stuff, I accidentally smashed a window, smacked, answered back, smacked etc etc. I was never an overly rude or unruly child, now my brother was and he never got smacked.

We both grew up to be well adjusted adults. I still look back annoyed etc that I got smacked for stuff that in no way deserved it. There is no way I would ever smack my kids let alone for the reasons why my dad did to me. The reason I got smacked wasn't because I did wrong but because my dad was angry and it made him feel better.

My Boys are 11 and 8, never been smacked and are ace kids, behave well, work and play well. It's the bringing them up that is hard, not the smacking them.

I always wonder why when my wife does something wrong I don't just smack her, you know make her realise she did wrong and smack her ensuring she wont do it again, i mean it's the same thing isn't it, why stop at kids.

People say I was smacked and back in the day kids were better behaved, this may be true you can't attribute the smacking to the better behaviour more than likely having a parent at home most of the time really helped and just maybe better parenting occurred then than now.


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## Reemul (Sep 12, 2018)

There are lots of reasons why we have the issues we have to day, anyone that thinks it down to not smacking kids enough, needs taking outside and giving a good smacking for being so stupid....


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2018)

Reemul said:



			I always wonder why when my wife does something wrong I don't just smack her, you know make her realise she did wrong and smack her ensuring she wont do it again, i mean it's the same thing isn't it, why stop at kids.
		
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ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ Well said.

I honestly don't think this discussion will ever change someone's opinions on smacking, but as long as it makes you think that maybe there is another means to deal with a situation then hopefully it serves a purpose.


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## Fish (Sep 12, 2018)

I remember being curled up in a ball whilst being striped with a belt!  

Did it stop me misbehaving or make me think any different as a kid, no!  

Did it create any platform or foundation to make me think differently, no!

Did it result in me no longer staying in touch and effectively going it alone ASAP, heâ€™ll yeah.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Flippin Eck. My posts usually last about four comments.
Found D4S comments interesting, in essence kids are worse at school now, than when we were kids. But as has been mentioned the cane was a deterrent in the olden days.
*Me and Missis T were approved for adoption and in our last meeting I mentioned I had smacked my son. They picked up on it and said " sorry we cannot let you adopt, you might have a child placed in you care who has been physically abused" *Missis T said " no problems you can shove your adoption". She also pointed out we could have a child that has been sexually assaulted and that assault started with a cuddle, something we give our kids every night. Are we to now stop cuddling our kids when they go to bed at night.
I don't think there is a fine line between a smack and physical violence. Ironically the birth mother of adopted daughter then sent a letter with 20 questions one of which said " do you smack you children". Let me tell you if she had been in that room when I read it, there would of been violence. With the injuries her daughter suffered before she was taken into care. She had some balls to ask that question.
I mentioned smacking to Missis T, she recalled an incident in Tycross Zoo years ago. A mother chimpanzee was trying to settle its baby chimp in its straw bed. The baby was proper playing up wanting to play. Mother gave it a clout on its backside. Baby squealed and me and Missis Ts jaws just hit the floor. It was astonishing to see. But it worked .
Re policing it indoors, cannot see how you can, but said woman on telly when asked " if you see a child in a supermarket get a smack for being naughty, what would you do if the law has banned smacking". She said " I would ask the parent, can I help you". Am sure that would help.
		
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And so you shouldnt be able to adopt - sorry but you told them you raise your hand to a child - no sane adoption agency is ever going to let you adopt after saying that.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And so you shouldnt be able to adopt - sorry but you told them you raise your hand to a child - no sane adoption agency is ever going to let you adopt after saying that.
		
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Because? And seeing as it was a council adoption service they thought otherwise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Because? And seeing as it was a council adoption service they thought otherwise.
		
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Because ? Why do you think ?


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## TheDiablo (Sep 12, 2018)

drive4show said:



			There is plenty of evidence, just try a quick google search. Knife crime at record levels, do you think these crimes are being carried out by us 'silver surfers' or perhaps more likely teens and 20 somethings? God forbid if someone pulls a knife on you in the street but good luck trying to reason with them.
		
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You know there is proven links between violence towards children and those children growing up to commit violent crime?

Have you got any more feet left to shoot?!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because ? Why do you think ?
		
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Because that's your opinion, but the experts at the time thought otherwise. As stated which you must of read, we told the adoption agency that if we were not allowed to smack our children ( should we feel the need) then we were more than happy to walk away. 
Phil you have had children for a year, I am talking about 20 years ago. The daughter I adopted had, burns on her body, brain shaking and a fractured knee within two weeks of being born. There is a differance between that and a potential smack.


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## Fish (Sep 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And so you shouldnt be able to adopt - sorry but you told them you raise your hand to a child - no sane adoption agency is ever going to let you adopt after saying that.
		
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Obviously there is an age/past times opinion on this, Iâ€™ve not read all the posts, but I can tell you from someone who was fostered and moved around from home (or family) to Home then eventually adopted, smacking & beatings was rife in the 60â€™s & 70â€™s on adopted children who werenâ€™t adopted as babies and had troubled times being on the gravy train at fostered homes, who were in the main, but not always, the most kind, supportive and loving people youâ€™d want to stay with, but for their own reasons, only wanted to be foster families. 

But the constant upheaval of being settled for a few months or years only then to be passed on led to many difficult and different rules and smacking to imbed those rules was always the first course of punishment. 

Smacking solves nothing, those that say it never did them any harm obviously thinks itâ€™s ok to smack a child themself, well it isnâ€™t, period! 

If you canâ€™t converse with youâ€™re child, then youâ€™ve failed, and smackingnor beating that child will change nothing, and of anything, will only cause further divides and resentment  in years to come.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Because that's your opinion, but the experts at the time thought otherwise. As stated which you must of read, we told the adoption agency that if we were not allowed to smack our children ( should we feel the need) then we were more than happy to walk away.
Phil you have had children for a year, I am talking about 20 years ago. The daughter I adopted had, burns on her body, brain shaking and a fractured knee within two weeks of being born. There is a differance between that and a potential smack.
		
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You may help youself if you give an initial timeline. 

Sorry but that potential smack can cause harm and pain to a child , you dont know the pain thresholds of the child , you dont know the level of force that a child needs before they feel pain. Thankfully the world has moved on from 20 years ago and those dark ages arent tolerated anymore, violence always disgusts me - most of the time its an act of a coward , even more so when its against a child , someone physical smaller and weaker than them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 12, 2018)

Anyone thinking that kids today are more badly behaved is deluded. It's rose tinted glasses and memory time. I remember seeing a page of quotes similar to the Socrates one posted earlier. They were stated by historical figures through the ages, around 200-300 years apart between each one. All on the same theme. Kids 'today' are all ruder, less considerate, less intelligent, poorer behaved, so on and so on. Apparently it's been the same for over 2,000 years ðŸ˜. Not sure when the golden era of kids behaviour was?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Anyone thinking that kids today are more badly behaved is deluded. It's rose tinted glasses and memory time. I remember seeing a page of quotes similar to the Socrates one posted earlier. They were stated by historical figures through the ages, around 200-300 years apart between each one. All on the same theme. Kids 'today' are all ruder, less considerate, less intelligent, poorer behaved, so on and so on. Apparently it's been the same for over 2,000 years ðŸ˜. Not sure when the golden era of kids behaviour was?
		
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Kids in my day with a beef might have settled it between themselves with a punch up, but that was all it was.  Now "dissing" someone leads to things being settled with knives.  But kids aren't more badly behaved these days... Jeez.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 12, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Kids in my day with a beef might have settled it between themselves with a punch up, but that was all it was.  Now "dissing" someone leads to things being settled with knives.  But kids aren't more badly behaved these days... Jeez.
		
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The knife problem is a current spike and largely limited to certain parts of London. Worrying but not a nation wide problem at this moment. In the last 40-50 years there were mods and rockers fighting with knives, flick knives came about, skinheads with knives. Knives are not a new problem. Luckily, as a country we largely suppress spikes in knife crime.

The back in my day angle is a slightly romantic view. That may have been the case in your area, in another region it may have been settled by knives still. You didn't see it but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just didn't happen near you so you don't think it occurred. Very little is new, few problems are original.


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## Fish (Sep 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The knife problem is a current spike and largely limited to certain parts of London. Worrying but not a nation wide problem at this moment. In the last 40-50 years there were mods and rockers fighting with knives, flick knives came about, skinheads with knives. Knives are not a new problem. Luckily, as a country we largely suppress spikes in knife crime.
		
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Tell that to the 3 teenagers families that have lost â€˜childrenâ€™ or young men to knife crime in my city in the last week, then factor Birmingham and other cities into that OUTSIDE of London, and you have a National problem.  You are deluded and blinkered if you think itâ€™s isolated to any degree to inner London!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 12, 2018)

I don't think it is isolated to London but the current spike is predominantly London based. Any knife crime and deaths are tragic. I would never and did not suggest otherwise.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The knife problem is a current spike and largely limited to certain parts of London. Worrying but not a nation wide problem at this moment. In the last 40-50 years there were mods and rockers fighting with knives, flick knives came about, skinheads with knives. Knives are not a new problem. Luckily, as a country we largely suppress spikes in knife crime.

The back in my day angle is a slightly romantic view. That may have been the case in your area, in another region it may have been settled by knives still. You didn't see it but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just didn't happen near you so you don't think it occurred. Very little is new, few problems are original.
		
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Mods & Rockers and Skinheads aren't kids, they're grown adults.  This thread is about kids behaviour.

Lived & worked in the same general area as a police officer.  Thanks for your advice about what I did and didn't see, what I did & didn't know occurred and what I did & didn't think happened; I started my career with nothing more than a cotton shirt and a truncheon as protection and was never concerned about dealing with kids, I finished it with a stab proof vest, CS spray and a friction lock baton as protection and a great deal of concern when dealing with kids.  But nothing's changed, it's all a romantic figment of my imagination...

Fish is right, you are blinkered and deluded.


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## TheDiablo (Sep 12, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mods & Rockers and Skinheads aren't kids, they're grown adults.  This thread is about kids behaviour.

Lived & worked in the same general area as a police officer.  Thanks for your advice about what I did and didn't see, what I did & didn't know occurred and what I did & didn't think happened; I started my career with nothing more than a cotton shirt and a truncheon as protection and was never concerned about dealing with kids, I finished it with a stab proof vest, CS spray and a friction lock baton as protection and a great deal of concern when dealing with kids.  But nothing's changed, it's all a romantic figment of my imagination...

Fish is right, you are blinkered and deluded.
		
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The thread is actually about smacking a child and the rights and wrongs associated with it. Serious question - Do you think if kids had been smacked growing up they'd be more or less prone to committing violent crime? 

Knife crime is a whole different topic, and a very adult, social problem that has been around for generations, and despite a current spike and media driven agenda remains lower than it was 10 years ago. Nothing to do kids or with smacking a child or not. 4 in 5 stabbings are committed by adults. 1 in 6 surgeries as a result of knife crime are on children. Thesd in itself are of course far too high and undoubtedly tragic, but knife crime isn't a new inner city kids problem made in the last 10 years and to allude to it as such is fantastically incorrect.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 12, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mods & Rockers and Skinheads aren't kids, they're grown adults.  This thread is about kids behaviour.

Lived & worked in the same general area as a police officer.  Thanks for your advice about what I did and didn't see, what I did & didn't know occurred and what I did & didn't think happened; I started my career with nothing more than a cotton shirt and a truncheon as protection and was never concerned about dealing with kids, I finished it with a stab proof vest, CS spray and a friction lock baton as protection and a great deal of concern when dealing with kids.  But nothing's changed, it's all a romantic figment of my imagination...

Fish is right, you are blinkered and deluded.
		
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Without sounding like the four Yorkshiremen in faulty towers. You had it good. ðŸ˜˜ Daughter who is in the police walks around with a glock and H and K mp5. She was on the Ross kemp show last week for a few seconds. Listening to kids as young as 12 walking around with guns. Not good. Might take more than a raised eyebrow to sort them out.


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## USER1999 (Sep 12, 2018)

Heck, if you can't smack kids, who can you smack?


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2018)

Ok, so your child misbehaves to the point that you smack them.... They turn around and hit you back. Then what? You hit them again harder this time so they know who is boss?

Violence breeds violence, your children learn directly from you. Don't teach them that violence is ok.


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## USER1999 (Sep 12, 2018)

I don't have kids. Not really my thing.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 12, 2018)

I got the odd smack as a child,but never felt the need to smack my child. 
Some kids definitely need firmer parenting tho imo.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

TheDiablo said:



			You know there is proven links between violence towards children and those children growing up to commit violent crime?

Have you got any more feet left to shoot?!
		
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You clearly don't understand the difference between violence and discipline.


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			You clearly don't understand the difference between violence and discipline.
		
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Agreed.

I think smacking children can be appropriate on rare occasions.

But NOTHING I would ever advocate could be referred to as violence.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Agreed.

I think smacking children can be appropriate on rare occasions.

But NOTHING I would ever advocate could be referred to as violence.
		
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Does the kid know the difference? and if so, at what age?


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## Don Barzini (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			There is plenty of evidence, just try a quick google search. Knife crime at record levels, do you think these crimes are being carried out by us 'silver surfers' or perhaps more likely teens and 20 somethings? God forbid if someone pulls a knife on you in the street but good luck trying to reason with them.
		
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Knife crime is obviously an issue. 

I'm not sure I buy the argument that it's on the rise because children nowadays aren't smacked though.


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## Crazyface (Sep 13, 2018)

I have never smacked either of my sons, now 32 and 24. One is a Liverpool supporter and one a Manchester United supporter. The prosecution rests !


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Agreed.

I think smacking children can be appropriate on rare occasions.

But NOTHING I would ever advocate could be referred to as violence.
		
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Iâ€™m struggling to ever see an occasion where I will see smacking a child as an appropriate reaction so can you please highlight one where itâ€™s a justified reaction for a grown adult to raise your hand to a child ?


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## TheDiablo (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			You clearly don't understand the difference between violence and discipline.
		
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And you clearly don't understand that discipline can be carried out successfully without force.


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m struggling to ever see an occasion where I will see smacking a child as an appropriate reaction so can you please highlight one where itâ€™s a justified reaction for a grown adult to raise your hand to a child ?
		
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https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/smacking-children-should-you-do-it.98731/post-1887815


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/smacking-children-should-you-do-it.98731/post-1887815

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All generic stuff with actually getting down to an actual situation 

Because there isnâ€™t one - there is no situation where it is ok to hit a child - none


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All generic stuff with actually getting down to an actual situation

Because there isnâ€™t one - there is no situation where it is ok to hit a child - none
		
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Ok Phil, just you stand aside and watch your child pulling a boiling pan of water over their face rather than be "violent". You'll feel like father of the year, then.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/smacking-children-should-you-do-it.98731/post-1887815

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I think this would be a warning slap and very light also pulling the hand away at the same time,basically saving the child from getting burnt.
A slap for being naughty or rude etc,never for me,talking to the child about right and wrong should suffice.
Its also about respect,bring your child up to respect you and your decisions.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Ok Phil, just you stand aside and watch your child pulling a boiling pan of water over their face rather than be "violent". You'll feel like father of the year, then.
		
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Thats ridiculous


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			I think this would be a warning slap and very light also pulling the hand away at the same time,basically saving the child from getting burnt.
A slap for being naughty or rude etc,never for me,talking to the child about right and wrong should suffice.
Its also about respect,bring your child up to respect you and your decisions.
		
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I'm not saying you step in and bray your kid to within an inch of their life. Like I said earlier in the thread, nothing I would consider doing to discipline a child would ever be enough to be classed as violence.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m struggling to ever see an occasion where I will see smacking a child as an appropriate reaction so can you please highlight one where itâ€™s a justified reaction for a grown adult to raise your hand to a child ?
		
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Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and move on.

LP your kid is about 18 months old, in this topic you are as qualified as an unmarried marriage councillor,
You might have rosy specs on now, but there will come a time when you will be sorely tempted .

Trust me, been there , you havenâ€™t


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			Thats ridiculous
		
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Yes, it is ridiculous that Phil would allow it to happen but it's what he's saying...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and move on.

LP your kid is about 18 months old, in this topic you are as qualified as an unmarried marriage councillor,
You might have rosy specs on now, but there will come a time when you will be sorely tempted .

Trust me, been there , you havenâ€™t
		
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This thread is full of people will opposing views  on both sides and some very strongly - yet I need to move on ?

I see no situation where an adult hitting a child for any reason is justified, itâ€™s an action that is stuck back in the 70â€™s as is the attempts to justify it. There will be no time in my daughters life where I feel the justification to smack her - if that happens then I have failed her


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Yes, it is ridiculous that Phil would allow it to happen but it's what he's saying...
		
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Umm no I didnâ€™t - saying I see no situation to hit a child doesnâ€™t mean Iâ€™m going to allow them to do as they wish. Thatâ€™s a ridiculous statement to even suggest.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This thread is full of people will opposing views  on both sides and some very strongly - yet I need to move on ?

I see no situation where an adult hitting a child for any reason is justified, itâ€™s an action that is stuck back in the 70â€™s as is the attempts to justify it. There will be no time in my daughters life where I feel the justification to smack her - if that happens then I have failed her
		
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You won't have failed her Phil, you will help her develop into a respectful human being. Like I've said many times in this thread, discipline never did any harm but beating or violence towards a child is a different kettle of fish altogether.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			You won't have failed her Phil, you will help her develop into a respectful human being. Like I've said many times in this thread, discipline never did any harm but beating or violence towards a child is a different kettle of fish altogether.
		
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Hitting someone is violence - you can wrap it up in the discipline word but I will find other ways bring her up as a respectful human being and she will be disciplined but it wonâ€™t ever be by using any physical force


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This thread is full of people will opposing views  on both sides and some very strongly - yet I need to move on ?
		
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Only because you have repeated yourself about 4 times


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## Stuart_C (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Discipline is one thing, abusing a child is totally different. If people cannot draw the line then they probably shouldn't be raising children in the first place.

*Do I think kids are worse behaved now compared to when I was one.....yes I do and the stories my (teacher) girlfriend tells me every evening confirm that.*

Click to expand...

IMO, this is the result of children being brought up in broken homes and with young kids becomimg parents.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Only because you have repeated yourself about 4 times
		
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Maybe because no one has actually answered and for me itâ€™s a critical question , and multiple people have repeated themselves 

The worst thing is because my daughter is only 18 months you appear to suggest that im unqualified to have an opinion on the subject on raising children , I would say my outlook is more relevent that people who raised children back in the 70/80â€™s when it was acceptable to hit a child - itâ€™s not anymore and there are plenty of studies to show the affects of smacking


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

Def


Stuart_C said:



			IMO, this is the result of children being brought up in broken homes and with young kids becomimg parents.
		
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Definitely a contributing factor but broken or stable home, a child still needs to understand how to behave properly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Def

Definitely a contributing factor but broken or stable home, a child still needs to understand how to behave properly.
		
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And that can easily be done without having to smack them


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			itâ€™s not anymore and there are plenty of studies to show the affects of smacking
		
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Yes there are......for both sides of the argument so make what you want from it.


edit: I meant to include this link

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/he...-no-harm-if-they-feel-loved-study-claims.html


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## Stuart_C (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Def

Definitely a contributing factor but broken or stable home, a child still needs to understand how to behave properly.
		
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In my experience with 2 beautiful, polite, caring, well behaved kids, in the main kids will only behave the way parents do. Most kids listen and act like they see their parents. 

Kids do need to learn how to behave but when you have young irresponsible children as parents bringing up children then what do you expect. 

Btw, i know a couple of really nice  families who have good jobs, nice houses holidays,idd well looked after etc  with kids who are little swines.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and move on.

LP your kid is about 18 months old, in this topic you are as qualified as an unmarried marriage councillor,
You might have rosy specs on now, but there will come a time when you will be sorely tempted .

Trust me, been there , you havenâ€™t
		
Click to expand...


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## Grant85 (Sep 13, 2018)

As a parent who previously would have had no problem smacking children, now being in the position of parenting and disciplining kids - I am completely against smacking children. 

By the time you feel it is appropriate to smack a child you have inevitably lost control. It is far better (and harder and more time consuming) to reinforce good behaviour with treats / choices / activities. And bad behaviour with a withdrawal of these things.


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Sometimes you just need to agree to disagree and move on.

LP your kid is about 18 months old, in this topic you are as qualified as an unmarried marriage councillor,
You might have rosy specs on now, but there will come a time when you will be sorely tempted .

Trust me, been there , you havenâ€™t
		
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Out of order IMO. Similar to the belief that you canâ€™t have an opinion on raising boys as you have girls, which is obviously nonsense.

Itâ€™s hard, having a no smacking rule sometimes limits your options. Iâ€™ve no issue with smacking lightly if required in the mind of the parent, but itâ€™s not for me.

You could make the argument that thereâ€™s more shouting involved with zero smacking, which in itself sets a poor example to kids


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hitting someone is violence - you can wrap it up in the discipline word but I will find other ways bring her up as a respectful human being and she will be disciplined but it wonâ€™t ever be by using any physical force
		
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Cannot but agree with you on this.  There is no excuse for a parent smacking a child.  Your smacking may have the immediate effect on the child that you wish, but for the smack to be effective in the way that you wish it to be then you have to have instilled fear of the parent into the child.  You have absolutely no idea whatsoever what longer term impact that fear and the pain will have on the child - both in respect of the child's own self-perception and feelings; it's feelings towards the parent, and on it's learnt understanding of what pain and fear a smack can have were they to perpetrate that smack on another.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

I find it interesting the number of comments on here from parents saying they never smack or discipline their children and they behave like little angels. My other half has a 4yo grandson who is a badly behaved little brat. His parents think he is very well behaved. Strange that.


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I find it interesting the number of comments on here from parents saying they never smack or discipline their children and they behave like little angels. My other half has a 4yo grandson who is a badly behaved little brat. His parents think he is very well behaved. Strange that.
		
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Mine are a couple of knobs sometimes, I know that. Still wouldnâ€™t smack em. I prefer slow mental disintegration


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

therod said:



			Mine are a couple of knobs sometimes, I know that. Still wouldnâ€™t smack em. I prefer slow mental disintegration
		
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Have you considered pulling their fingernails off? After all, that isn't smacking


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## User20205 (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Have you considered pulling their fingernails off? After all, that isn't smacking 

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Even worse, iâ€™m gonna send them to live with their grandparents ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

therod said:



			Even worse, iâ€™m gonna send them to live with their grandparents ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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I wouldn't do that mate, apparently old people are violent towards children!


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I find it interesting the number of comments on here from parents saying they never smack or discipline their children and they behave like little angels. My other half has a 4yo grandson who is a badly behaved little brat. His parents think he is very well behaved. Strange that.
		
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What do you find interesting?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			What do you find interesting?
		
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The number of parents who think their children are well behaved when they are not.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			The number of parents who think their children are well behaved when they are not.
		
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And how would you know?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I find it interesting the number of comments on here from parents saying they never smack or discipline their children and they behave like little angels. My other half has a 4yo grandson who is a badly behaved little brat. His parents think he is very well behaved. Strange that.
		
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I gave my son a single smack on the leg when he was maybe 5 (never before)

I cannot recall when and why but I recall being very angry...!  I also recall instantly regretting it and vowing to never do it again.

And I didn't.

He was not a very easy child when growing up - bit he was, and is, a nice lad.  I do not believe smacking would have made any difference but I am convinced had I smacked him he would remember...and memories from young can be painful and difficult to reconcile with.


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			but for the smack to be effective in the way that you wish it to be then you have to have instilled fear of the parent into the child.
		
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Nonsense. It isn't fear of the parent, it's the knowledge of consequence to actions.

When I was a kid I broke my arm after having my hand snapped back by a football. I'm not scared of footballs or strikers but I know that my arm could break if I had a similar injury.


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## Del_Boy (Sep 13, 2018)

For me this is a parents decision whether they want to smack their child or not and I mean smack not kicking the crap out of kids.  My wife and I decided when bringing up our daughter that she would smack our daughter if it was warranted as a blokeâ€™s force is usually a lot more and can easily be a lot harder than just a smack.  This approach seemed to work for all 3 of us


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## Don Barzini (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I find it interesting the number of comments on here from parents saying they never smack or discipline their children and they behave like little angels. My other half has a 4yo grandson who is a badly behaved little brat. His parents think he is very well behaved. Strange that.
		
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And the situation of people having badly behaved little brats never existed in the past, did it? I guess it can't have done, since there was so much smacking and caning about.


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## londonlewis (Sep 13, 2018)

I've got 2 kids who are nearly 5 yo and 2 yo. They aren't always immaculately behaved and can have tantrums, but fortunately seem to leave that until we are at home. 
I've never hit my kids and don't plan on doing so either. I see it as an emotional reaction rather than a rational one.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			And how would you know?
		
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Well where shall I start.........
1. I'm a parent
2. I've been to numerous kids birthday parties etc
3. I have babysat other kids before on loads of occasions
4. I used to be involved in the running of a youth club 

etc, etc, etc.

Nice attempt at fishing Tony  :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2018)

Just playing devil's advocate here.......

All those that are opposed to violence against children (which seems pretty much to be everybody), are you also opposed to violence against other adults?


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 13, 2018)

No smacking of children - sounds like a Southern thing to me.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Just playing devil's advocate here.......

All those that are opposed to violence against children (which seems pretty much to be everybody), are you also opposed to violence against other adults?
		
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No


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Well where shall I start.........
1. I'm a parent
2. I've been to numerous kids birthday parties etc
3. I have babysat other kids before on loads of occasions
4. I used to be involved in the running of a youth club

etc, etc, etc.

Nice attempt at fishing Tony  :thup:
		
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No fishing you should know by now I tell it how it is,up to how much is allowed on here.
We have all seen badly behaved kids,look at the parents and understand why.
Not all kids  or parents are the same.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			No smacking of children - sounds like a Southern thing to me.
		
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What's your point?


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Just playing devil's advocate here.......

All those that are opposed to violence against children (which seems pretty much to be everybody), are you also opposed to violence against other adults?
		
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This question has zero relevance to the op


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/smacking-children-should-you-do-it.98731/post-1887815

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Yeah... that isn't really smacking is it now. You're not "smacking" them in order to discipline them, you're knocking their hand away to save them from potential harm. Not really the same thing.


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Just playing devil's advocate here.......

All those that are opposed to violence against children (which seems pretty much to be everybody), are you also opposed to violence against other adults?
		
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Whataboutery


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

Are all those in favour of smacking kids in favour of smacking pets as well?


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## user2010 (Sep 13, 2018)

Yep. And then rub their noses in it. Don't get me started on what I do to the cat if it steps outta line.;-D


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Are all those in favour of smacking kids in favour of smacking pets as well?
		
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Itâ€™s these sort of baiting posts that negate what little point you had.

Or in other words, stop trolling.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Itâ€™s these sort of baiting posts that negate what little point you had.

Or in other words, stop trolling.
		
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Itâ€™s a genuine question, there are plenty of dog owners on this forum who would be horrified at the thought of someone hitting a dog.
Or is it a difficult question some are afraid to answer?


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 13, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			What's your point?
		
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Flippant remark, why?


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## adam6177 (Sep 13, 2018)

Smacking someone, no matter the age, is a violent act... You've either lost control of your emotions and lashed out or consciously chosen to physically hurt someone. How some deem smacking a child to not be a violent act is beyond me.

But I maintain that I hope this thread can just stop someone for a second to reconsider hitting their child, it really isn't the answer in my opinion.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			Flippant remark, why?
		
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Didn't understand the point you were trying to make.
Flippant remarks? Worst kind,don't add anything to the thread IMO.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s a genuine question, there are plenty of dog owners on this forum who would be horrified at the thought of someone hitting a dog.
Or is it a difficult question some are afraid to answer?
		
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Genuine question,no relevance to op


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 13, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			Didn't understand the point you were trying to make.
Flippant remarks? Worst kind,don't add anything to the thread IMO.
		
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Well seeing as you always like to give it straight, maybe try and practice what you preach.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 13, 2018)

Outta interest , seeing as some kids grow up quicker than others. At what age is a smack, (not an act of violence) acceptable in society? Adult age.


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## Fish (Sep 14, 2018)

If I slap/smack an adult, or a woman slaps my face, itâ€™s common assault, so why is it any different just because itâ€™s their child and excused as disciplinary?


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## Kellfire (Sep 14, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Outta interest , seeing as some kids grow up quicker than others. At what age is a smack, (not an act of violence) acceptable in society? Adult age.
		
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I would say at an age where the child is capable of rational thought, so much younger than 18.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Nonsense. It isn't fear of the parent, it's the knowledge of consequence to actions.

When I was a kid I broke my arm after having my hand snapped back by a football. I'm not scared of footballs or strikers but I know that my arm could break if I had a similar injury.
		
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I suggest that in the majority of cases that if a child knows that he will get smack from a parent for some act, then I suggest that that child might try avoid doing the act out of the fear of the hit and the pain and that in many children could translate into a fear of the parent rather than idea of respect for the parent. Not all parent-child relationships are the same - children do not all think and feel the same.  And it is more than just the immediate consequence of be smacked - it is the long term psychological damage that can result and the lassons that the child learns about how he felt when struck by another and the control that he then felt to be under.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2018)

Del_Boy said:



			For me this is a parents decision whether they want to smack their child or not *and I mean smack not kicking the crap out of kids.*  My wife and I decided when bringing up our daughter that she would smack our daughter if it was warranted as a blokeâ€™s force is usually a lot more and can easily be a lot harder than just a smack.  This approach seemed to work for all 3 of us
		
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And I am sure that you know your own definition of these two different severities  ut I suggest that not all have the same definitions - and a law has to apply across all individuals and for all children.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Just playing devil's advocate here.......

All those that are opposed to violence against children (which seems pretty much to be everybody), are you also opposed to violence against other adults?
		
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yes


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes
		
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Fair enough.

Maybe we should look to ban all contact sports as well then. Football, rugby and boxing all involve plenty of 'violence'. Lots of people on here are against violence yet they are happy when the centre half of their team 'sticks it into the opposing centre forward' Even something as genteel as cricket has a certain level of aggresive behaviour such as fast bowlers trying to land a bouncer in the batsman's ribcage.


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## User20205 (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Fair enough.

Maybe we should look to ban all contact sports as well then. Football, rugby and boxing all involve plenty of 'violence'. Lots of people on here are against violence yet they are happy when the centre half of their team 'sticks it into the opposing centre forward' Even something as genteel as cricket has a certain level of aggresive behaviour such as fast bowlers trying to land a bouncer in the batsman's ribcage.
		
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Are you drunk Gordon?? ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

therod said:



			Are you drunk Gordon?? ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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No....just bored


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## Don Barzini (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Fair enough.

Maybe we should look to ban all contact sports as well then. Football, rugby and boxing all involve plenty of 'violence'. Lots of people on here are against violence yet they are happy when the centre half of their team 'sticks it into the opposing centre forward' Even something as genteel as cricket has a certain level of aggresive behaviour such as fast bowlers trying to land a bouncer in the batsman's ribcage.
		
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You're taking the pee now aren't you?!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Fair enough.

Maybe we should look to ban all contact sports as well then. Football, rugby and boxing all involve plenty of 'violence'. Lots of people on here are against violence yet they are happy when the centre half of their team 'sticks it into the opposing centre forward' Even something as genteel as cricket has a certain level of aggresive behaviour such as fast bowlers trying to land a bouncer in the batsman's ribcage.
		
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Thatâ€™s as bad as my pet analogy


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s as bad as my pet analogy 

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I like to think of it as putting a different slant on the topic  

Actually, your pet analogy was valid!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

Don Barzini said:



			You're taking the pee now aren't you?!
		
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Not really. If violence is unacceptable in the family home then why is it acceptable on the sports field?


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## adam6177 (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Fair enough.

Maybe we should look to ban all contact sports as well then. Football, rugby and boxing all involve plenty of 'violence'. Lots of people on here are against violence yet they are happy when the centre half of their team 'sticks it into the opposing centre forward' Even something as genteel as cricket has a certain level of aggresive behaviour such as fast bowlers trying to land a bouncer in the batsman's ribcage.
		
Click to expand...

Consenting adults fully aware of the risks and consequences of putting themselves in a situation..... slightly differing I reckon.


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## Don Barzini (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Not really. If violence is unacceptable in the family home then why is it acceptable on the sports field?
		
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Assuming the "violence" on the sports field you refer to is competitive behaviour and is within the rules of the game that is being played.....are you honestly saying you see no difference between that and a bloke smacking his children or other family members?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

Don Barzini said:



			Assuming the "violence" on the sports field you refer to is competitive behaviour and is within the rules of the game that is being played.....are you honestly saying you see no difference between that and a bloke smacking his children or other family members?
		
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No I'm saying that I have seen things on the sports field that people consider to be part of the game but if they happened outside the pub on a Friday night it would be assault. So why is one acceptable but the other isn't?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			No I'm saying that I have seen things on the sports field that people consider to be part of the game but if they happened outside the pub on a Friday night it would be assault. So why is one acceptable but the other isn't?
		
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Who says itâ€™s acceptable ? If something happens on a sports field that would be classed as assault then itâ€™s not part of the sport and should be punished.

Any sort of violence is not acceptable - the sports you mention bar boxing are not violent , cricket ?!? Seriously ?

Sports have rules just like life has laws - stay within those rules and laws then there is no issue - cross them and the be punished.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who says itâ€™s acceptable ? If something happens on a sports field that would be classed as assault then itâ€™s not part of the sport and should be punished.

*Any sort of violence is not acceptable - the sports you mention bar boxing are not violent , cricket ?!? Seriously ?*

Sports have rules just like life has laws - stay within those rules and laws then there is no issue - cross them and the be punished.
		
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Yes cricket and I'm serious. I clearly remember an Ashes test when there was plenty of tension, Merv Hughes was warned for deliberately bowling too many bouncers at the ribs and head of a batsmen and the look on his face when he floored the guy with a ball in the ribs. It was clearly deliberate. And when a batsman goes for the big tonk into the stand and there is a silly point in front of him do you think he thinks to himself 'I better not because I might hurt this guy 6 feet in front of me' or 'It's his own fault for standing there if he gets hit'?
As for football, well that is just legalised thuggery at times but you are a keen supporter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Yes cricket and I'm serious. I clearly remember an Ashes test when there was plenty of tension, Merv Hughes was warned for deliberately bowling too many bouncers at the ribs and head of a batsmen and the look on his face when he floored the guy with a ball in the ribs. It was clearly deliberate. And when a batsman goes for the big tonk into the stand and there is a silly point in front of him do you think he thinks to himself 'I better not because I might hurt this guy 6 feet in front of me' or 'It's his own fault for standing there if he gets hit'?
As for football, well that is just legalised thuggery at times but you are a keen supporter.
		
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Sorry Gordon itâ€™s getting a bit silly in fact beyond silly - how itâ€™s got to the stage of sports from people thinking smacking a child is wrong I have no idea. 

A cricketer hitting a ball isnâ€™t violent for Christ sakes just as a bowler putting down bouncers and football ?! 

If a sportsman commits a violent act on the sports field then they are punished , an adult smacking a child is imo a violent act and should be punished , just as if an adult smacked another adult it would be classed as assault 

Smack a child means failing in the role of parent and protecting your own child. Who is going to protect the child from parent willing to hit them


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who says itâ€™s acceptable ? If something happens on a sports field that would be classed as assault then itâ€™s not part of the sport and should be punished.

Any sort of violence is not acceptable - the sports you mention bar boxing are not violent , cricket ?!? Seriously ?

Sports have rules just like life has laws - stay within those rules and laws then there is no issue - cross them and the be punished.
		
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Phil, you always come across with this "if things are within the law".

Are all laws fair? 

Have they all been agreed on by the populace?

Are they all applied fairly across race, creed, demographics and "status" of individuals?

Are all laws morally justifiable?

Have you never broken a law in your life?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

No Phil it's not silly. This thread is about the acceptance (or not) of violent behaviour and I have given some examples of differing standards.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			Phil, you always come across with this "if things are within the law".

Are all laws fair?

Have they all been agreed on by the populace?

Are they all applied fairly across race, creed, demographics and "status" of individuals?

Are all laws morally justifiable?

Have you never broken a law in your life?
		
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Yes I have broken a law and been punished for it.

As for your questions on laws being fair ? I suspect many would think they are and many would think they arenâ€™t. I personally find no issues with them and believe I live my life within in - even if I may not agree with a rule i will respect it. Thatâ€™s how I was brought up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			No Phil it's not silly. This thread is about the acceptance (or not) of violent behaviour and I have given some examples of differing standards.
		
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It is stupid when start to bring in sport and even more so when you suggest people believe it to be acceptable 

*Violence - 

using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.*

if that is used in sport ( beyond the obvious combat sports ) then it will be punishable 

IF a footballer is deemed to have carried out an act of violence - punished , same in rugby , tennis , cricket or indeed any sport. 

This is the football rule on violent conduct 

*
VIOLENT CONDUCT

Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.*

The punishment is a red card plus suspension 

I believe in cricket itâ€™s Law 42 , in rugby Law 10 - so how can violence be deemend acceptable in sports when they have laws that oppose it ? 

Unlawful acts of violence or violent behaviour are not acceptable by 99% of the respectful human race. Violence or violent behaviour is 99% the last act of a coward who has no respect.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is stupid when start to bring in sport and even more so when you suggest people believe it to be acceptable

*Violence - *

*using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.*

if that is used in sport ( beyond the obvious combat sports ) then it will be punishable

IF a footballer is deemed to have carried out an act of violence - punished , same in rugby , tennis , cricket or indeed any sport.

This is the football rule on violent conduct


*VIOLENT CONDUCT*

*Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.*

*In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.*

The punishment is a red card plus suspension

I believe in cricket itâ€™s Law 42 , in rugby Law 10 - so how can violence be deemend acceptable in sports when they have laws that oppose it ?

Unlawful acts of violence or violent behaviour are not acceptable by 99% of the respectful human race. Violence or violent behaviour is 99% the last act of a coward who has no respect.
		
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Yep fair enough I agree with what you say. But those advocating smacking children on here are talking about a little tap on the back of the hand or backside which is considerably less violent than some of the actions you see in football or rugby which you consider to be part and parcel of the game. So if you can't tap a child's hand why do you think it is acceptable to shoulder barge an opponent to the ground in football which is within the rules?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Yep fair enough I agree with what you say. But those advocating smacking children on here are talking about a little tap on the back of the hand or backside which is considerably less violent than some of the actions you see in football or rugby which you consider to be part and parcel of the game. So if you can't tap a child's hand why do you think it is acceptable to shoulder barge an opponent to the ground in football which is within the rules?
		
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You are talking about two adults playing a sport - a shoulder barge isnâ€™t a violent act and itâ€™s not done to hurt someone. Players tackling each other isnt a violent act - it maybe physical force but itâ€™s not violence

Someone smacking a child is trying to shock them into not doing something- they donâ€™t â€œtapâ€ the back of the hand - itâ€™s done with enough force to shock and the shock comes from the initial pain of the blow. 

Not one of us can judge how little force can produce pain for a child - itâ€™s someone physically stronger hitting someone with a different pain threshold

If someone imo feels they are justified in raising a hand , slipper etc to someone physically smaller than them as a punishment then imo they have failed that child


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are talking about two adults playing a sport - a shoulder barge isnâ€™t a violent act and itâ€™s not done to hurt someone. Players tackling each other isnt a violent act - it maybe physical force but itâ€™s not violence

Someone smacking a child is trying to shock them into not doing something- they donâ€™t â€œtapâ€ the back of the hand - itâ€™s done with enough force to shock and the shock comes from the initial pain of the blow.

Not one of us can judge how little force can produce pain for a child - itâ€™s someone physically stronger hitting someone with a different pain threshold

If someone imo feels they are justified in raising a hand , slipper etc to someone physically smaller than them as a punishment then imo they have failed that child
		
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You went mental when Holgate â€œonlyâ€ shoulder barged Firmino in the Derby, glad to see you now recognise it wasnâ€™t violent!


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## pokerjoke (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry Gordon itâ€™s getting a bit silly in fact beyond silly - how itâ€™s got to the stage of sports from people thinking smacking a child is wrong I have no idea.

A cricketer hitting a ball isnâ€™t violent for Christ sakes just as a bowler putting down bouncers and football ?!

If a sportsman commits a violent act on the sports field then they are punished , an adult smacking a child is imo a violent act and should be punished , just as if an adult smacked another adult it would be classed as assault

Smack a child means failing in the role of parent and protecting your own child. Who is going to protect the child from parent willing to hit them
		
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IMO and yours Phil this thread has become stupid and I'm with you on not smacking my child,if others do it then its not for me to tell them how to bring up their kids,we are all different.
Gordon has gone off track but you are wrong about hitting someone else being assault,an England cricketer just got off for knocking out 2 guys,apparently self defence,or sticking up for someone else.

My question to you would be what you would do to a man who hit your wife or child in front of you,because you condemn violence would you just stand back and let them get away with it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			IMO and yours Phil this thread has become stupid and I'm with you on not smacking my child,if others do it then its not for me to tell them how to bring up their kids,we are all different.
Gordon has gone off track but you are wrong about hitting someone else being assault,an England cricketer just got off for knocking out 2 guys,apparently self defence,or sticking up for someone else.

My question to you would be what you would do to a man who hit your wife or child in front of you,because you condemn violence would you just stand back and let them get away with it?
		
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Stand by for the 1% non-coward rule


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I have broken a law and been punished for it.

As for your questions on laws being fair ? I suspect many would think they are and many would think they arenâ€™t. I personally find no issues with them and believe I live my life within in - even if I may not agree with a rule i will respect it. Thatâ€™s how I was brought up.
		
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So you were brought up just to conform?

No matter how wrong you feel that a law or rule may be? 

Do you not believe in protest, making a change or even breaking rules or laws if you feel that they are wrong? 

What if a dictatorial government imposes certain restrictions, loss of privacy and martial law, so encouraging "legitimate" violence by the state - still just accept, as its the law?


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## Stuart_C (Sep 14, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			You went mental when Holgate â€œonlyâ€ shoulder barged Firmino in the Derby, glad to see you now recognise it wasnâ€™t violent!
		
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it was definitley  reckless and dangerous borderline violent.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			it was definitley  reckless and dangerous borderline violent.
		
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Thatâ€™s your opinion, but the man that matters decided it wasnâ€™t and seeing as how LP is for supporting officials (as seen on the Williams thread) and against sports people getting in their faces, we (me and you) are obviously wrong.


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## patricks148 (Sep 14, 2018)

pokerjoke said:



			IMO and yours Phil this thread has become stupid and I'm with you on not smacking my child,if others do it then its not for me to tell them how to bring up their kids,we are all different.
Gordon has gone off track but you are wrong about hitting someone else being assault,an England cricketer just got off for knocking out 2 guys,apparently self defence,or sticking up for someone else.

My question to you would be what you would do to a man who hit your wife or child in front of you,because you condemn violence would you just stand back and let them get away with it?
		
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he would obliviously reason with them, after all you would just be a coward to wade in wouldn't you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			So you were brought up just to conform?

No matter how wrong you feel that a law or rule may be?

Do you not believe in protest, making a change or even breaking rules or laws if you feel that they are wrong?

What if a dictatorial government imposes certain restrictions, loss of privacy and martial law, so encouraging "legitimate" violence by the state - still just accept, as its the law?
		
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I spent 22 years in the military where I had to follow orders even if at times I didnâ€™t agree with them 

Itâ€™s part of my make up and I believe itâ€™s respectful and the fabric of our society to respect the laws of the land 

But yes I do believe people are entitled to peaceful protest their beliefs and yes laws can be changed but my life has been fine with the laws and regs we live in


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## user2010 (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry Gordon itâ€™s getting a bit silly in fact beyond silly - how itâ€™s got to the stage of sports from people thinking smacking a child is wrong I have no idea.

A cricketer hitting a ball isnâ€™t violent for Christ sakes just as a bowler putting down bouncers and football ?!

If a sportsman commits a violent act on the sports field then they are punished , an adult smacking a child is imo a violent act and should be punished , just as if an adult smacked another adult it would be classed as assault

*Smack a child means failing in the role of parent and protecting your own child. *Who is going to protect the child from parent willing to hit them
		
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Absolute garbage. Utter crap.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 14, 2018)

I think itâ€™s probably fair to say that most of us will have brought up our kids to be respectful and decent human beings, and thats whether we have chastised them by contact or my word of mouth. 
We haven't created any monsters or serial killers, so we must have done something right whether everyone agrees with it or not.

What I do know, is that I have 2 lovely hardworking duaghters in their twenties who would help anyone in trouble, know right from wrong and will do anything their mum needs them to do. Thats all that matters to me.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I spent 22 years in the military where I had to follow orders even if at times I didnâ€™t agree with them

Itâ€™s part of my make up and I believe itâ€™s respectful and the fabric of our society to respect the laws of the land

But yes I do believe people are entitled to peaceful protest their beliefs and yes laws can be changed but my life has been fine with the laws and regs we live in
		
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So do I, as a rule of thumb, but will make my own mind up on a case by case basis.

You still havent answered the other questions though......


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			So do I, as a rule of thumb, but will make my own mind up on a case by case basis.

You still havent answered the other questions though......

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I have no idea which ones - I always see loads of questions and what if and scenarios etc etc - but at the end of the day whatâ€™s the point ? I have beliefs about laws and rules as well as about violence plus how a parent should treat their own child. It seems at times people just look to trip people up in regards their opinion. 

I was brought up to respect 

I believe people should be able to protest peacefully 

And I tbink the rest of the questions where What ifâ€™s about a government we donâ€™t have ?


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no idea which ones - I always see loads of questions and what if and scenarios etc etc - but at the end of the day whatâ€™s the point ? I have beliefs about laws and rules as well as about violence plus how a parent should treat their own child. It seems at times people just look to trip people up in regards their opinion.

I was brought up to respect

I believe people should be able to protest peacefully

And I tbink the rest of the questions where What ifâ€™s about a government we donâ€™t have ?
		
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Maybe you do, but your tone looked very dictatorial with regards to how others should bring up their children and their failings if they smack their own kids.

Back on point - I think that it should be a parent's own choice as to whether they do or not, and for others to say that its abuse/failing if they do is a bit rich.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 14, 2018)

Liverbirdie said:



			Maybe you do, but your tone looked very dictatorial with regards to how others should bring up their children and their failings if they smack their own kids.

Back on point - I think that it should be a parent's own choice as to whether they do or not, and for others to say that its abuse/failing if they do is a bit rich.
		
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And after that last sentence the thread can be locked ðŸ‘


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s part of my make up and I believe itâ€™s respectful and the fabric of our society to respect the laws of the land

in
		
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What a truly fantastic attitude.


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