# EU Referendum - are you Out or In



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2016)

Simple question -

After the "deal" has been done are you going to vote 

Out
In
Undecided 

Ps would be great if it could be merged with the current thread


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 20, 2016)

Not had a chance to read the "deal" but it's academic for me anyway - stay in!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 20, 2016)

Undecided. Need to read the case for both sides in more detail first. At the moment following the media saturation of Cameron's Euro campaigning this week I'm a tad apathetic to it all. Let the furore die down and I'll consider the options and make a choice


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2016)

In, Out, In, Out Shake it all about!   Do the Davy sell out then you turn around, thats what the  deals about.

I'm for out.   Stand on our own two feet! :whoo:


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## Hobbit (Feb 20, 2016)

I'm for out. For me, it's got nothing to do with immigration or finance. It's about self determination.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'm for out. For me, it's got nothing to do with immigration or finance. It's about self determination.
		
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That's also it for me :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'm for out. For me, it's got nothing to do with immigration or finance. It's about self determination.
		
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This plus we will always put in more than we get out.


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## PieMan (Feb 20, 2016)

I'm out. As I said in the other thread, first hand experience of how the EU operates has been enough for me.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2016)

Before Dave did any kind of deal I was out.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2016)

I was expecting Hacker to be along by now saying 'What do you expect from a bunch of stuffed shirt Golf Club members'


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## Leftie (Feb 20, 2016)

Reminds me of my late grandfather telling me about 1938 when ......"British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain triumphantly returns to Britain claiming to have negotiated, â€˜peace with honourâ€™ and declares, â€˜I believe it is peace in our time.â€™ "  Yeh.  Right 

As far as I'm concerned, we have been lied to about this by "politicians" for 40 years and this is the only chance we will have to get our own back - our own country, our own sovereignty, our own self determination.

I'm OUT


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## Del_Boy (Feb 21, 2016)

Undecided - still looking for info for what a Brexit actually means.  How will we trade with Europe?  How will we control our borders etc


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## Fish (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm OUT &#128526;


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2016)

Not a clue at the moment.
Had no real "dealings" with Europe to make me want to leave but I have no overriding desire to stay either.
I'm one to be convinced either way.
But, as with many during the Independence election, the "Out" brigade need to convince me more than the "In".
It's a big change, and without proper information from both sides, an informed decision is impossible.
I await loads of bumpf through the letterbox in the next month.....


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm baffled by the media's (concocted) agenda of hanging any importance whatsoever on what side of the fence Bozza's going to jump to. :mmm:


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2016)

Boris is a very strong campaigner so he could have an impact. I think Dave's deal is weak, he can say reform as much as he likes but it is not true, this is not a reform. However I am In as this weak deal makes no change to my views.


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Boris is a very strong campaigner so he could have an impact. I think Dave's deal is weak, he can say reform as much as he likes but it is not true, this is not a reform. However I am In as this weak deal makes no change to my views.
		
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For those few undecided - and not bored with the whole thing - here's what appears to be a fairly unbiased summary of the Pros and Cons! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32793642


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			I'm baffled by the media's (concocted) agenda of hanging any importance whatsoever on what side of the fence Bozza's going to jump to. :mmm:
		
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Lord Tyrion said:



			Boris is a very strong campaigner so he could have an impact....
		
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Seems to me that, given his apparent 'torn' decision, he could also decide to 'not campaign'! But that would rather go against his nature! 

It could also be an opportunity for him to elevate himself from his current back-bench role, as his London Mayor duties will end after the May election! 

I'm more inclined to think that his delay is more to do with selecting the 'right' side than the actual decision!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2016)

Foxholer - very astute of you. Boris wants to be the next leader and his claim will be stronger if he is on the winning side of this vote. I agree, he is currently weighing up which side is likely to win and that is where he will go. His key complaint was the loss of sovereignty and a desire to regain that. Dave has done nothing to resolve that so what is he thinking about? A conviction politician would not need days to think about this but this is more about strategy for Boris.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 21, 2016)

In.

As for the poll.......What do you expect from a bunch of stuffed shirt Golf Club members


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			In.

As for the poll.......What do you expect from a bunch of stuffed shirt Golf Club members 

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You stole my thoughts:lol:


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## Crow (Feb 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'm for out. For me, it's got nothing to do with immigration or finance. It's about self determination.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			That's also it for me :thup:
		
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drive4show said:



			This plus we will always put in more than we get out.
		
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This is it for me, but in the opposite direction, I'm for staying in.

We only need some knob like Boris getting in (and with the Murdoch led British public that is easily possible) and who knows where we might end up.
Europe will prevent any leader pushing their own extreme views and steering the UK into the mire.

People always talk about Europe imposing its rules on the UK but, in all honesty, how many such rules have been damaging to the UK?


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## freddielong (Feb 21, 2016)

I don't have a vote but I would vote out

I believe we have reached a point were we loose more than we gain by being in, I also believe any trade agreements needed  can be pit in place from the outside. There will be short term pain but it will result in long term gain


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## delc (Feb 21, 2016)

Not being a Daily Mail reading Little Englander, I shall be voting to stay in. Being part of a larger political and trading group seems to make sense to me in the somewhat dangerous world we live in. We are not big or powerful enough to go it alone.


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## Fish (Feb 21, 2016)

Boris will be voting for OUT &#128077;


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

Crow said:



			We only need some knob like Boris getting in (and with the Murdoch led British public that is easily possible) and who knows where we might end up.
		
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Unfortunately, this could happen whether UK is in Europe or not! Some would say that's been the case for the last 6 years! Others that it was the case for the 12 years before that! And what would happen if Corbyn became PM is probably the biggest problem Labour has!



Crow said:



			Europe will prevent any leader pushing their own extreme views and steering the UK into the mire.
		
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I can't see how they'd do that! They didn't prevent Greece or Italy becoming basket cases! Or Spain's dire economic performance (now supposedly on the road to recovery) or (waiting to become a crisis) Portugal's huge political and debt issues - which will likely be the next 'crisis', depending whether or not there's a Brexit!



Crow said:



			People always talk about Europe imposing its rules on the UK but, in all honesty, how many such rules have been damaging to the UK?
		
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Agreed! SMEs who don't export might benefit from less regulation/standards, but most EU regs dropped would have to be replaced by UK ones anyway, which could more issues/confusion for consumers - and more cost to set up and administer!

Oh! And here's an old link that kills some of the weirder scares of daft EU regulation! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6481969.stm


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 21, 2016)

Reafarding Boz being the next Tory leader.

He needs to get his act together and decide who he really is.

He's obviously an educated bloke with a bit of a brain but it suits him to project the image of a bumbling oaf. It charms the Tory old dears who want to mother him, but who, sadly, will also vote for him too come any opportunity.

Bumbling oaf won't cut it on the world stage and the prospect of him and Trump in Chequers or The Oval Office, three years hence and discussing my future, turns my blood to ice.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Reafarding Boz being the next Tory leader.

He needs to get his act together and decide who he really is.

He's obviously an educated bloke with a bit of a brain but it suits him to project the image of a bumbling oaf. It charms the Tory old dears who want to mother him, but who, sadly, will also vote for him too come any opportunity.

Bumbling oaf won't cut it on the world stage and the prospect of him and Trump in Chequers or The Oval Office, three years hence and discussing my future, turns my blood to ice.
		
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So would you sleep safely in your bed with a warm glow if it was Corbyn and Putin discussing your future?


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So would you sleep safely in your bed with a warm glow if it was Corbyn and Putin discussing your future?
		
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No.


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Reafarding Boz being the next Tory leader.

He needs to get his act together and decide who he really is.

He's obviously an educated bloke with a bit of a brain but it suits him to project the image of a bumbling oaf. It charms the Tory old dears who want to mother him, but who, sadly, will also vote for him too come any opportunity.

Bumbling oaf won't cut it on the world stage and the prospect of him and Trump in Chequers or The Oval Office, three years hence and discussing my future, turns my blood to ice.
		
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Can you imagine the situation of a Boris vs Corbyn election - with Trump as POTUS?

Executive Monarchy anyone? Hang on, that could well be Charles III!


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## MarkE (Feb 21, 2016)

Out for me and I don't care if i'm worse off for it. At least we will once again be a proud, self governing world player.


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Out for me and I don't care if i'm worse off for it. At least we will once again be a proud, self governing* world player*.
		
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But for how long?!



MarkE said:



			Out for me and *I don't care if i'm worse off for it*. At least we will once again be a proud, self governing world player.
		
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Short-sightedness? Or Selflessness!


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2016)

Leftie said:



			Reminds me of my late grandfather telling me about 1938 when ......"British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain triumphantly returns to Britain claiming to have negotiated, â€˜peace with honourâ€™ and declares, â€˜I believe it is peace in our time.â€™ "  Yeh.  Right 
...
		
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Chamberlain was rather 'hard-done by' for that morale-boosting statement - and Churchill's subsequent demolition of him in print! Britain had been preparing for war since 1934, before Chamberlain became PM, and he sacked a couple of ministers because of the lack of progress in it!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Out for me and I don't care if i'm worse off for it. At least we will once again be a proud, self governing world player.
		
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No you won't, the World will be making deals with the EU and the UK will be sidelined.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 21, 2016)

Boz is OUT!!


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...erendum-david-cameron-boris-johnson-live.html


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Out unless Parliament declares that an in vote will mean a reduction by at least 300 MPs. They do less and less and increase the stock. Idle twonks.


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Interesting thread started by someone who has declared in another thread that he never votes. Good to see a change of heart.


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No you won't, the World will be making deals with the EU and the UK will be sidelined.
		
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Then we shall fire our nukes at them damn upstarts.


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## scottbrown (Feb 21, 2016)

Currently I am IN. 

dont have ( And doubt ever will have) enough facts to make the leap into the unknown.

Better the devil you know and all that ...


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

When bankers started squirrelling away billions of pounds things happened to try and stop it.

When EU ministers and staff start fiddling the tax payer of billions of pounds every year it appears some want to slap them on the back and let them crack on.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 21, 2016)

Currently in


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No you won't, the World will be making deals with the EU and the UK will be sidelined.
		
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No they won't - the UK import billions worth of goods - countries outside the EU will no doubt see out worth.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting thread started by someone who has declared in another thread that he never votes. Good to see a change of heart.
		
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What was the point of that post - I have voted before.


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## MarkE (Feb 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No you won't, the World will be making deals with the EU and the UK will be sidelined.
		
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No, the UK will have free reign to trade with whom ever they wish. Why you think we will be sidelined is beyond me. The EU has been holding us back for too long.


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## evahakool (Feb 21, 2016)

I will be voting for staying in although my industry (fishing) has had a raw deal by being in the EU, IMO this wouldn't change if we left, it was after all our own politicians that barted away most of our fishing rights.


We have had relative peace in Europe for the past 50 years or so and in this unstable times we see across the world being in the EU helps us stay that way, for all its faults and waste of money this is my main reason for staying in.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 21, 2016)

Wavering...

Struggling to come to terms with two of the most odious politicians of my lifetime are supporting the leave campaign...

Lot of thinking ahead of referendum day here...


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 21, 2016)

delc said:



			Not being a Daily Mail reading Little Englander, I shall be voting to stay in. Being part of a larger political and trading group seems to make sense to me in the somewhat dangerous world we live in. We are not big or powerful enough to go it alone.
		
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Oh %#@+ I 100% agree totally with Delc. And there's a phrase I never thought I'd find myself typing. 

Please kill me now...


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			- I have voted before.
		
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Good to know


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Good to know
		
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But irrelevant to the thread


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

evahakool said:



			I will be voting for staying in although my industry (fishing) has had a raw deal by being in the EU, IMO this wouldn't change if we left, it was after all our own politicians that barted away most of our fishing rights.


We have had relative peace in Europe for the past 50 years or so and in this unstable times we see across the world being in the EU helps us stay that way, for all its faults and waste of money this is my main reason for staying in.
		
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What exactly has the EU done to create peace in the last 50 years?   They have no army, cannot even sort out the current migrant crises.    Nato is what has kept Russia from our door and a strong military alliance in the West, us being in the EU will not make a jot of difference to our national security.


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But irrelevant to the thread
		
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Sorry, misunderstood thread, I thought it was about voting in or out. If it's not, your correct, it is irrelevant.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Sorry, misunderstood thread, I thought it was about voting in or out. If it's not, your correct, it is irrelevant.
		
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What I have voted or not voted for in the past is irrelevant to the thread apart from someone possibly looking to score points.


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## freddielong (Feb 21, 2016)

MarkE said:



			No, the UK will have free reign to trade with whom ever they wish. Why you think we will be sidelined is beyond me. The EU has been holding us back for too long.
		
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This is how I see it the Eu does nothing for us we can't do for ourselves, we can sign trade agreements with whomever we want.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm in ... Why because this is a trade association. When your company sends round an email letting you know the implications of leaving, you get perspective. 
This decision should be left to people with jobs not those who are retired, and have time to read the daily mail and think we are handing out money hand over fist. They are not contributing any more.
 Go and find out ... We are not supporting anyone more than our own time wasters... Our borders are ours to protect, we have the sea surrounding us... Just check everyone's paper work thoroughly!! 
I am surprised the farmers have not kicked off yet ...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I'm in ... Why because this is a trade association. When your company sends round an email letting you know the implications of leaving, you get perspective. 
*This decision should be left to people with jobs not those who are retired, and have time to read the daily mail and think we are handing out money hand over fist. They are not contributing any more.*
 Go and find out ... We are not supporting anyone more than our own time wasters... Our borders are ours to protect, we have the sea surrounding us... Just check everyone's paper work thoroughly!! 
I am surprised the farmers have not kicked off yet ...
		
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What a sad, small minded comment this is! So all the retired people that have worked hard to make GB 'great' don't count any more? Are you for real?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No they won't - the UK import billions worth of goods - countries outside the EU will no doubt see out worth.
		
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Quite right, the EU will continue to sell us as many of their goods as they can. Buying from us, however, will be another story. Ask those Norwegian salmon farmers.


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## MarkE (Feb 21, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I'm in ... Why because this is a trade association. When your company sends round an email letting you know the implications of leaving, you get perspective.
		
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So you're voting to stay because some big business is threatening you with repercussions if you don't do as they wish? Even more reason to vote Leave.


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## evahakool (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What exactly has the EU done to create peace in the last 50 years?   They have no army, cannot even sort out the current migrant crises.    Nato is what has kept Russia from our door and a strong military alliance in the West, us being in the EU will not make a jot of difference to our national security.
		
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My feeling is that if we left the EU and isolate ourselves it could lead to divisions between us and Europe, by being in the EU it at least gives us a easier opportunity to diffuse any situations that might crop up in the future.


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## User20205 (Feb 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			What a sad, small minded comment this is! So all the retired people that have worked hard to make GB 'great' don't count any more? Are you for real?
		
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I agree with him Gordon. Anyone over 60 should be precluded from voting. They potentially contribute to a change in circumstance that they won't see the repercussions of. 

Qualification to vote should be working, tax payer. IMO of course


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## MegaSteve (Feb 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Quite right, the EU will continue to sell us as many of their goods as they can. Buying from us, however, will be another story. Ask those Norwegian salmon farmers.
		
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Guessing they'll have to sort out a trade agreement with us first...
Took 'em seven years to sort out one with Canada...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2016)

therod said:



			I agree with him Gordon. Anyone over 60 should be precluded from voting. They potentially contribute to a change in circumstance that they won't see the repercussions of. 

Qualification to vote should be working, tax payer. IMO of course
		
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But they are still fully paid up, tax paying citizens. One man, one vote. One of the key fundamentals of a democracy.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			What a sad, small minded comment this is! So all the retired people that have worked hard to make GB 'great' don't count any more? Are you for real?
		
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You know what, that is exactly what I thought. cheers tashy for your 36 years graft now crawl under a stone and let the big boys talk.  People like me and other old farts who have grafted have earned the right to vote, whether that's in or out is irrelevant.


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## User20205 (Feb 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			But they are still fully paid up, tax paying citizens. One man, one vote. One of the key fundamentals of a democracy.
		
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What about the women? Can they vote? 
It can't just be based on immigration, unfortunately because a variety of reasons we run the risk of jeopardising the future because the past is scared of a different accent


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2016)

therod said:



			What about the women? Can they vote? 
It can't just be based on immigration, unfortunately because a variety of reasons we run the risk of jeopardising the future because the past is scared of a different accent

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Never mind the women, can the Scots living in England vote? That is far more important


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## AmandaJR (Feb 21, 2016)

Undecided but more towards staying in than out - but then I fear change and better the devil you know and all that! Plan to do much more research before deciding for sure.


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## User20205 (Feb 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Never mind the women, can the Scots living in England vote? That is far more important  

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You've been here long enough to qualify, and just scrape in on age


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## User20205 (Feb 21, 2016)

AmandaJR said:



			Undecided but more towards staying in than out - but then I fear change and better the devil you know and all that! Plan to do much more research before deciding for sure.
		
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Hilarity aside

This is how I feel. I don't feel especially European, I'd never want to be part of the euro and unchecked immigration is an issue.....but I've yet to see a roadmap of what the exit looks like, it's too uncertain to just circle the wagons. 

We're skint, we face a Tory future, Europe can help us dilute that.


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## KenL (Feb 21, 2016)

I am a definite IN.  I am happy to be a European despite the EU not being perfect.  Just like I am OK with a Tory government despite never having voted for them.

I see a lot of positives in how the UK has been improved by all the people who have been able to move here from EU countries and are eager to work and pay tax etc.  I only really see British people who are happy to not work and live off the state.

I was born in Scotland and live in Scotland, however I am British.  If the UK (at least those eligible to vote) votes to leave, I am seriously worried that Scotland will force another referendum and that Scotland will leave the UK.

Someone on the radio the other day said that 4 million UK citizens live (and work) in the EU, what will happen to them if we leave?

I will be distraught if we leave, I really hope that the British people look at the positives of being part of a vibrant Europe and vote to stay in.


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## Junior (Feb 21, 2016)

Undecided......id be inclined to vote no if I heard that we will have an EFTA style agreement similar to Switzerland and Norway, but I doubt Europe would give us that luxury.  

Also, I'd like to understand the position of some large private sector employers around the country.  So far I've not heard much as to whether they will stay or go depending on the outcome of the vote....especially if mainland Europe is a larger market for them than the uk.


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## KenL (Feb 21, 2016)

Large companies will probably state their position closer to the referendum.  That's what happened in Scotland prior to the UK referendum.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			What a sad, small minded comment this is! So all the retired people that have worked hard to make GB 'great' don't count any more? Are you for real?
		
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Really, sometimes the tough stuff has to be said... 
As for be bullied by big business, no, I work for a major manufacturer, we need access to the markets we need to compete with our European competitors on a level playing field ... There is nothing "great" about a solitary Britain.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

KenL said:



			I am a definite IN.  I am happy to be a European despite the EU not being perfect.  Just like I am OK with a Tory government despite never having voted for them.

I see a lot of positives in how the UK has been improved by all the people who have been able to move here from EU countries and are eager to work and pay tax etc.  I only really see British people who are happy to not work and live off the state.

I was born in Scotland and live in Scotland, however I am British.  If the UK (at least those eligible to vote) votes to leave, I am seriously worried that Scotland will force another referendum and that Scotland will leave the UK.

Someone on the radio the other day said that 4 million UK citizens live (and work) in the EU, what will happen to them if we leave?

I will be distraught if we leave, I really hope that the British people look at the positives of being part of a vibrant Europe and vote to stay in.
		
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Scotland cant Force a referendum, they can only have one with the approval of parliament and I cant see that happening for the next 20/30 years.

People living here from the EU wont be told to pack up and go, they may have to apply for a visa but if they are working they would be OK, not so sure of those that are just on benefits though.  I imagine the same would apply to Brits over there.  It just wouldn't be a sudden iron curtain pulled down.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

evahakool said:



			My feeling is that if we left the EU and isolate ourselves it could lead to divisions between us and Europe, by being in the EU it at least gives us a easier opportunity to diffuse any situations that might crop up in the future.
		
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'Isolate Ourselves" !    Thats a bit dramatic, we will still trade with the EU, go on holidays there, eat their apples, drive their cars and drink their wine.  We will also be able to discuss and settle issues,  why do you think we wont be able to?


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2016)

Guys we have 2 euro referendum threads going at the mo, 
Can we have this one as an indication of how you will vote, with comments, opinions, etc on the main thread

Ta Muchly


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Really, sometimes the tough stuff has to be said... 
As for be bullied by big business, no, I work for a major manufacturer, we need access to the markets we need to compete with our European competitors on a level playing field ... There is nothing "great" about a solitary Britain.
		
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It's not your comments about big businesses I was referring to, it was the totally crass and insensitive way you dismissed elder people. If you are lucky, one day you will be one of those people.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 21, 2016)

drive4show said:



			It's not your comments about big businesses I was referring to, it was the totally crass and insensitive way you dismissed elder people. If you are lucky, one day you will be one of those people.
		
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Then I would know when it was my business or not ... Dismissed.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Then I would know when it was my business or not ... Dismissed.
		
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It's  everyones business. No one should be excluded if they are a citizen.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			'Isolate Ourselves" !    Thats a bit dramatic, we will still trade with the EU, go on holidays there, eat their apples, drive their cars and drink their wine.  We will also be able to discuss and settle issues,  why do you think we wont be able to?
		
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More's the point is actually 'why do you think we *will *be able to?'  The spurned wife in an acrimonious divorce, left with the young toddler children and truculent teenager to bring up, is not always that accommodating of the husband who breaks from the family to go seek new love, fame and fortune free of the straightjacket of the marriage.

Absolutely STAY/IN


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## Oxfordcomma (Feb 22, 2016)

IN for me. Outside the EU, we're too small. And despite a certain number of moronic decisions, I do believe that in general the EU is good for all of us.

This is going to be a very interesting few months. I find myself on the same side as Cameron, ffs?  

I did think today that IDS was just a bit dim. The very first thing that one of the senior OUT politicians says is about protecting the borders to prevent  And as terrorism? Think people will see through FUD on that level, that isn't where the debate lies.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			More's the point is actually 'why do you think we *will *be able to?'  The spurned wife in an acrimonious divorce, left with the young toddler children and truculent teenager to bring up, is not always that accommodating of the husband who breaks from the family to go seek new love, fame and fortune free of the straightjacket of the marriage.

Absolutely STAY/IN
		
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And when the spurned wife realises that she is losing billions of pounds each year in lost trade?


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## Hobbit (Feb 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			More's the point is actually 'why do you think we *will *be able to?'  The spurned wife in an acrimonious divorce, left with the young toddler children and truculent teenager to bring up, is not always that accommodating of the husband who breaks from the family to go seek new love, fame and fortune free of the straightjacket of the marriage.

Absolutely STAY/IN
		
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The UK runs a massive trade deficit with the EU. If the EU imposes import restrictions or tariffs and the UK reciprocates, the UK generates money to subsidise trade - a UK win. The EU are unlikely to impose restrictions as any reciprocation will hurt them more.

I'd expect the Article 50 negotiations would involve a large 'penalty' for leaving, a divorce settlement using your analogy.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 22, 2016)

Can I get the rules confirmed please. Are you allowed to make exactly the same post in both identical threads or do you have to word them slightly differently?


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Foxholer - very astute of you. Boris wants to be the next leader and his claim will be stronger if he is on the winning side of this vote. I agree, he is currently weighing up which side is likely to win and that is where he will go. His key complaint was the loss of sovereignty and a desire to regain that. Dave has done nothing to resolve that so what is he thinking about? A conviction politician would not need days to think about this but this is more about strategy for Boris.
		
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Boris wasn't weighing up whether he supported in or out, he was deciding if things were posed for his leadership challenge and he figured that there was a decent chance of Brexit and that he would be forgiven more for being on the losing exit side than he would be for a losing stay side. Complete political opportunism and triangulation.


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## Old Skier (Feb 22, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys we have 2 euro referendum threads going at the mo, 
Can we have this one as an indication of how you will vote, with comments, opinions, etc on the main thread

Ta Muchly
		
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Might be best to just merge them if you have that facility


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## ger147 (Feb 22, 2016)

I am no more certain of what sort of EU relationship we are signing up for if we decide to stay than we are if we decide to leave. I have no idea what the various pros and cons are as none are being clearly articulated by either side, just the usual negative scare mongering by both sides if you don't vote with them, nothing positive.

So for the first time in my adult life, I am genuinely considering the possibility of not voting. Since turning 18 I've voted in every local election, every Westminster election, every Scottish Parliamentary election and I also voted in the Scottish referendum, but I'm not sure that between now and the date of this one I will be able to come to any sort of reasonable conclusion based on the nonsense IMO currently being spouted by both sides.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 22, 2016)

ger147 said:



			I am no more certain of what sort of EU relationship we are signing up for if we decide to stay than we are if we decide to leave. I have no idea what the various pros and cons are as none are being clearly articulated by either side, just the usual negative scare mongering by both sides if you don't vote with them, nothing positive.

So for the first time in my adult life, I am genuinely considering the possibility of not voting. Since turning 18 I've voted in every local election, every Westminster election, every Scottish Parliamentary election and I also voted in the Scottish referendum, but I'm not sure that between now and the date of this one I will be able to come to any sort of reasonable conclusion based on the nonsense IMO currently being spouted by both sides.
		
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Go with your gut then.


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## ger147 (Feb 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Go with your gut then.
		
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My gut feel is not to vote.


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## Aztecs27 (Feb 22, 2016)

Not read this whole thread, but genuinely shocked at the number of out votes.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

Aztecs27 said:



			Not read this whole thread, but genuinely shocked at the number of out votes.
		
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Why?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Boris wasn't weighing up whether he supported in or out, he was deciding if things were posed for his leadership challenge and he figured that there was a decent chance of Brexit and that he would be forgiven more for being on the losing exit side than he would be for a losing stay side. Complete political opportunism and triangulation.
		
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Political triangulation is appeasing both left and right.   Is he doing that?


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## bluewolf (Feb 22, 2016)

Well, I've thought long and hard.. I'm finding it very difficult to make an informed choice, mainly due to the utter bilge that is being spouted by the opportunistic gutter dwellers that currently inhabit the rarefied environs of Parliament.. However, I've decided to base my decision on 2 things.. 

The first is Workers Rights.. I genuinely believe that these will be better upheld in Europe than with our current Government.. 

The second deciding factor is based on my opinions of those in power who are currently advocating for an "OUT" vote.. When I look at the list of names I notice that I have a strong dislike for almost all of them..

 Maybe not the most scientific decision making process, but I'd bet it has the same validity as those employed by most on here...


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## evahakool (Feb 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			'Isolate Ourselves" !    Thats a bit dramatic, we will still trade with the EU, go on holidays there, eat their apples, drive their cars and drink their wine.  We will also be able to discuss and settle issues,  why do you think we wont be able to?
		
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I didn't say we wouldn't be able to discuss any issues that might crop up in the future just that it would be easier to diffuse any situations that might crop up if we stayed within the EU.

If we left the EU and imposed our own fishing limits ( not that our government would have the backbone to do this) how do you think the French,  Spanish, and other EU countries that fish our waters would react? It could possible lead to trade restrictions from other countries.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

evahakool said:



			I didn't say we wouldn't be able to discuss any issues that might crop up in the future just that it would be easier to diffuse any situations that might crop up if we stayed within the EU.

If we left the EU and imposed our own fishing limits ( not that our government would have the backbone to do this) how do you think the French,  Spanish, and other EU countries that fish our waters would react? It could possible lead to trade restrictions from other countries.
		
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What exactly would be these situations that would be easier to diffuse?

How do you think countries around the World manage their Fishing limits.   It's not Rocket Science and we still have a Navy  thats still big enough to protect our territorial waters.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 22, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Well, I've thought long and hard.. I'm finding it very difficult to make an informed choice, mainly due to the utter bilge that is being spouted by the opportunistic gutter dwellers that currently inhabit the rarefied environs of Parliament.. However, I've decided to base my decision on 2 things.. 

The first is Workers Rights.. I genuinely believe that these will be better upheld in Europe than with our current Government.. 

The second deciding factor is based on my opinions of those in power who are currently advocating for an "OUT" vote.. When I look at the list of names I notice that I have a strong dislike for almost all of them..

 Maybe not the most scientific decision making process, but I'd bet it has the same validity as those employed by most on here...
		
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I'm in a similar place. The "freedom from bureaucratic European rules" I feel can be read as "a opportunity to further erode the rights of workers". I can see not a return to the mythical 1950's but the all too real 1930's. That said, although I'm certainly swaying towards staying in, I'm not as sure as I'd like to be. Will be an interesting few months....if not years!


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## evahakool (Feb 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What exactly would be these situations that would be easier to diffuse?

How do you think countries around the World manage their Fishing limits.   It's not Rocket Science and we still have a Navy  thats still big enough to protect our territorial waters.
		
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Who knows what will happen in the future,but by saying that we have a navy to protect our territorial waters implies that we would use them and that would seem aggressive to other countries and could lead to conflict.


It's a bit hypothetical anyway as the UK would never impose its own fishing limits.




You can't equat other single countries fishing limits to the EU, it's to simplistic to say it's not Rocket Science it's far from that.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

evahakool said:



			Who knows what will happen in the future,but by saying that we have a navy to protect our territorial waters implies that we would use them and that would seem aggressive to other countries and could lead to conflict.


It's a bit hypothetical anyway as the UK would never impose its own fishing limits.




You can't equat other single countries fishing limits to the EU, it's to simplistic to say it's not Rocket Science it's far from that.
		
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Only when we are in the EU, we maintained our own limits before that just like countries do around the world.   It is simple.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			I'm in a similar place. The "freedom from bureaucratic European rules" I feel can be read as "a opportunity to further erode the rights of workers". I can see not a return to the mythical 1950's but the all too real 1930's. That said, although I'm certainly swaying towards staying in, I'm not as sure as I'd like to be. Will be an interesting few months....if not years!
		
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The biggest threat to UK workers is unrestricted migration.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			And when the spurned wife realises that she is losing billions of pounds each year in lost trade?
		
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One thing she doesn't do is go crawling to her departed ex asking for help.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The biggest threat to UK workers is unrestricted migration.
		
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Exactly why do you think Germany has accepted over 800,000 migrants? It it because they are "good-eggs"? (think we know the answer to that). Is it because they are rubbish at running an economy and don't know what they are doing? Hmmmm, I think not, they have a reasonable track record I think all would agree. Maybe, just maybe, they know that with an aging population they need many many more people of working age. Maybe, just maybe, they can see that the long term gain is worth the short term pain?  I don't actually know the answers, but it strikes me that there must be some good reason and as we are similar countries it surprises me that it is right for them and not for us. Time will tell I suppose but it will be 20/30/40 years (long after I'm gone) that we'll really know, and I think that long term view is what we should all be concentrating on. The migration from Eastern Europe is probably beneficial and isn't really a major concern to me. The migration crisis from the war-zones is more of an issue but is better tackled collectively and won't go away if we withdraw from EU. As has been made clear time and time again, we have closed borders now to non-EU migrants so what would it really change?


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## jp5 (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Exactly why do you think Germany has accepted over 800,000 migrants? Maybe, just maybe, they know that with an aging population they need many many more people of working age.
		
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And what happens when those people retire? It's not sustainable to be forever importing young people to support an increasing number of retirees.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			And what happens when those people retire? It's not sustainable to be forever importing young people to support an increasing number of retirees.
		
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That view sort of assumes that life expectancy will continue to rise like it has done this last 50 years. It won't. Also, pensions are changing and in a generation the burden will be nothing like it is today. The next 20 years or so will be the peak (the baby boomers) and the pressure will start to flat line.....it will still be much higher than it used to be but much more sustainable. No need to import constantly in huge numbers as a big influx now (when it's needed) will give a welcome boost to the birth rate, a key factor in all this. Crystal ball would be good but I see Germany more prosperous in 30 years as a result of forward thinking now.....and that future prosperity is what I think this is all about.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			And what happens when those people retire? It's not sustainable to be forever importing young people to support an increasing number of retirees.
		
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Wow, do you mean that kids grow up? Oh no, that blows population planning out of the water. 

Of course they bloody well grow up. It is simple enough even for UKIP supporters to understand. Birth rate determines the input, death rate (age specific) determines the output and the balance between the two, allowing for net migration determines the size and age mix of the population. 

The bleeding obvious observation that this is a dynamic system does not mean you stop right now. Ongoing strategies are needed to keep it going but for now when birth rates are low, as they are in Germany, importing young people is a good way of buying some time.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Wow, do you mean that kids grow up? Oh no, that blows population planning out of the water. 

Of course they bloody well grow up. It is simple enough even for UKIP supporters to understand. Birth rate determines the input, death rate (age specific) determines the output and the balance between the two, allowing for net migration determines the size and age mix of the population. 

The bleeding obvious observation that this is a dynamic system does not mean you stop right now. Ongoing strategies are needed to keep it going but for now when birth rates are low, as they are in Germany, importing young people is a good way of buying some time.
		
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From a Mod that was a very rude reply!


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## jp5 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Wow, do you mean that kids grow up? Oh no, that blows population planning out of the water. 

Of course they bloody well grow up. It is simple enough even for UKIP supporters to understand. Birth rate determines the input, death rate (age specific) determines the output and the balance between the two, allowing for net migration determines the size and age mix of the population. 

The bleeding obvious observation that this is a dynamic system does not mean you stop right now. Ongoing strategies are needed to keep it going but for now when birth rates are low, as they are in Germany, importing young people is a good way of buying some time.
		
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I'm not really sure what your point was in all of that, but it'd be nice to keep things civil.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			Exactly why do you think Germany has accepted over 800,000 migrants? It it because they are "good-eggs"? (think we know the answer to that). Is it because they are rubbish at running an economy and don't know what they are doing? Hmmmm, I think not, they have a reasonable track record I think all would agree. Maybe, just maybe, they know that with an aging population they need many many more people of working age. Maybe, just maybe, they can see that the long term gain is worth the short term pain?  I don't actually know the answers, but it strikes me that there must be some good reason and as we are similar countries it surprises me that it is right for them and not for us. Time will tell I suppose but it will be 20/30/40 years (long after I'm gone) that we'll really know, and I think that long term view is what we should all be concentrating on. The migration from Eastern Europe is probably beneficial and isn't really a major concern to me. The migration crisis from the war-zones is more of an issue but is better tackled collectively and won't go away if we withdraw from EU. As has been made clear time and time again, we have closed borders now to non-EU migrants so what would it really change?
		
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Germany has taken the 800,000 on humanitarian grounds, they never planned it.  I have worked in Germany and have many German friends.   The German people are not at all happy with the current situation and the Brake will have to be applied this year.

Those people from the war zones that have migrated to Germany, Sweden etc will at some point get the right to live in the UK.  Also, when Turkey is allowed to become a member of the EU there will be a potential 80 Million people with an economic pull factor to come to Northern Europe.   I fail to understand how this is good news for us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			From a Mod that was a very rude reply!
		
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In your opinion:lol:


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In your opinion:lol:
		
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No!  its just rude


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Germany has taken the 800,000 on humanitarian grounds, they never planned it. I have worked in Germany and have many German friends. The German people are not at all happy with the current situation and the Brake will have to be applied this year.

Those people from the war zones that have migrated to Germany, Sweden etc will at some point get the right to live in the UK. Also, when Turkey is allowed to become a member of the EU there will be a potential 80 Million people with an economic pull factor to come to Northern Europe. I fail to understand how this is good news for us.
		
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So you think Germany has done this on purely humanitarian grounds. OK!

I know people there are not happy. Of course they are not, they have the same insecurities and worries that we have but that's all part of the "short term pain". My point is that there is a bigger picture, a much longer term picture and I feel that the debate in this country is being polarised around immigration as if we can't solve it without changing our countries whole future in so many completely unrelated ways. We can solve it within the EU, Germany will have to, France and the rest will have to and they will do so together possibly better than we will manage on our own.


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## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			So you think Germany has done this on purely humanitarian grounds. OK!

I know people there are not happy. Of course they are not, they have the same insecurities and worries that we have but that's all part of the "short term pain". My point is that there is a bigger picture, a much longer term picture and I feel that the debate in this country is being polarised around immigration as if we can't solve it without changing our countries whole future in so many completely unrelated ways. We can solve it within the EU, Germany will have to, France and the rest will have to and they will do so together possibly better than we will manage on our own.
		
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Or as part of the greater EU they may impose a solution we don't agree with. It is the imposition of a rule etc by an outside agency that I disagree with.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			I'm not really sure what your point was in all of that, but it'd be nice to keep things civil.
		
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I will take that as a confirmation you have no substantive reply to my post. 

Your point that replenishing the population now doesn't last for ever demanded a sarcastic reply since an argument based purely on logic would seem likely to miss the mark. And your reply to it further confirms that.


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## jp5 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I will take that as a confirmation you have no substantive reply to my post. 

Your point that replenishing the population now doesn't last for ever demanded a sarcastic reply since an argument based purely on logic would seem likely to miss the mark. And your reply to it further confirms that.
		
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Maybe you're just having a bad day, but possibly wise to reacquant yourself with the forum rules http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?53425-GM-forum-Updated-rules-guidelines then I'd be happy to discuss the point in hand.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Maybe you're just having a bad day, but possibly wise to reacquant yourself with the forum rules http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?53425-GM-forum-Updated-rules-guidelines then I'd be happy to discuss the point in hand.
		
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You are a cheeky bugger, aren't you? Do you find that is an adequate substitute for actually understanding stuff about the real world?

Not having a bad day at all, and know the rules perfectly well, thanks.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or as part of the greater EU they may impose a solution we don't agree with. *It is the imposition of a rule etc by an outside agency that I disagree with.*

Click to expand...

I'm with you there mate, all these stupid dress codes imposed by some out of touch committees, absolute disgrace, can't they just let me wear what I want without meddling and interfering!!!


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## jp5 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are a cheeky bugger, aren't you? Do you find that is an adequate substitute for actually understanding stuff about the real world?

Not having a bad day at all, and know the rules perfectly well, thanks.
		
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Nope, just wondered where the bad attitude came from. I raised what I thought was a valid point, and one that could have evolved into a multifaceted discussion on population dynamics, but was met with sarcasm and underhand insults. Not to worry.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			I will take that as a confirmation you have no substantive reply to my post. 

Your point that replenishing the population now doesn't last for ever demanded a sarcastic reply since an argument based purely on logic would seem likely to miss the mark. And your reply to it further confirms that.
		
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Ethan.  I know you are not discussing this with me but cant you see that the other party is only stating an opinion, they are not being sarcastic or rude.   Why do you think it's OK to respond in such a sarcastic and arrogant manner?   Why don't you just re-look at the posts with a detached view and I am sure you will observe that by simply asking relevant questions and putting polite points you could take the discussion much further and maybe even have a chance of influencing someone.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Nope, just wondered where the bad attitude came from. I raised what I thought was a valid point, and one that could have evolved into a multifaceted discussion on population dynamics, but was met with sarcasm and underhand insults. Not to worry.
		
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You have raised your valid point before and it has been pointed out to you that it makes no sense. Your argument is that bringing in kids to rebalance the ageing demographic doesn't work, because you have to do it again later. But you have been asked before for the alternative and haven't pointed out one.

The population is living longer. So it follows that to keep the age balance stable, you need more births or immigrant kids and must inevitably accept a larger population. If you don't accept that larger population and don't want the population to become older, with massively greater consumption of health and social care funded by an ever smaller working population, then what do you do? If you don't put kids in at the bottom end, then you must take oldies off the top end. So your plan is restrict immigration and instead impose euthanasia? No?, then it is a greying population with an economic time bomb where the budget goes bang in a few years. And of course you have to keep doing it until balance between birth rates and death rates is reached, which will be never. 

The German plan to bring some respite by importing young immigrants is their only choice. They have the lowest fertility rate in the west but can't enforce greater reproduction nor euthanise oldies. The UK is not far behind the Germans in demographic terms and is relying on immigrants who have a higher fertility rate than indigenous.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Ethan.  I know you are not discussing this with me but cant you see that the other party is only stating an opinion, they are not being sarcastic or rude.   Why do you think it's OK to respond in such a sarcastic and arrogant manner?   Why don't you just re-look at the posts with a detached view and I am sure you will observe that by simply asking relevant questions and putting polite points you could take the discussion much further and *maybe even have a chance of influencing someone*.
		
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Good one   

Like there is one single person on here who will be swayed by what a bunch of sad old gofers (guilty as charged) yakking away on the internet say.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

High levels of migration is only a way of delaying the issues of an ageing population, it's not a way of avoiding them.

Mass immigration is not the answer to an aging population because migrants get old too. A scheme of ever increasing levels of net migration to try to constrain the dependency ratio of working age to non-working age people cannot be truly sustainable in the long term.  The spike in population created at the end of WW2 is only a temporary problem and will be offset somewhat by people working and contributing longer, the 400,000 or so annual birth rate and the foreseeable lowering of life expectancy due to things like the growing obesity rate and alcohol consumption.   This will be more of a problem with the pressures on public services like the NHS.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good one   

Like there is one single person on here who will be swayed by what a bunch of sad old gofers (guilty as charged) yakking away on the internet say.
		
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Ethan is a very intelligent person and is very knowledgeable on certain subjects.   With a better, well how can I put it, bedside manner he could well give some food for thought.  Surely he only posts in such threads to challenge or influence.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2016)

Surely man U will have to get rid of Van Gaal soon, I mean it's a joke now, I seriously could have done just as well myself.



Ooops, sorry, I'm just copying and pasting my posts on 2 separate but almost identical threads.  And I got the wrong one.


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## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			You are a cheeky bugger, aren't you? Do you find that is an adequate substitute for actually understanding stuff about the real world?

Not having a bad day at all, and know the rules perfectly well, thanks.
		
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And your quite a wind up merchant who continues to snip at people who don't share your views.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			High levels of migration is only a way of delaying the issues of an ageing population, it's not a way of avoiding them.

*Mass immigration is not the answer to an aging population because migrants get old too. A scheme of ever increasing levels of net migration to try to constrain the dependency ratio of working age to non-working age people cannot be truly sustainable in the long term.*  The spike in population created at the end of WW2 is only a temporary problem and will be offset somewhat by people working and contributing longer, the 400,000 or so annual birth rate and the foreseeable lowering of life expectancy due to things like the growing obesity rate and alcohol consumption.   This will be more of a problem with the pressures on public services like the NHS.
		
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I've already had a go at explaining why the assertion above is wrong. Ethan has also explained in greater detail why we need an increased population to maintain the status quo (post #116). There is of course an alternative. Stop immigration, allow the population to become completely unbalanced and then tax the remaining workers much more. That would work. I've not seen a viable alternative to actually address this problem put forward so far. The Germans obviously have a strategy.....do we?


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## bluewolf (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			I've already had a go at explaining why the assertion above is wrong. Ethan has also explained in greater detail why we need an increased population to maintain the status quo (post #116). There is of course an alternative. Stop immigration, allow the population to become completely unbalanced and then tax the remaining workers much more. That would work. I've not seen a viable alternative to actually address this problem put forward so far. The Germans obviously have a strategy.....do we?
		
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Increase the amount of taxpayers
Increase the amount each taxpayer pays
or
Decrease the amount of people of pensionable age. 

Pick your favourite.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			I've already had a go at explaining why the assertion above is wrong. Ethan has also explained in greater detail why we need an increased population to maintain the status quo (post #116). There is of course an alternative. Stop immigration, allow the population to become completely unbalanced and then tax the remaining workers much more. That would work. I've not seen a viable alternative to actually address this problem put forward so far. The Germans obviously have a strategy.....do we?
		
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Did you read all my post.  If you did then maybe you could address the actual points I laid out in it.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 23, 2016)

Can't make up my mind but hoping this might unlock the puzzle


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Increase the amount of taxpayers
Increase the amount each taxpayer pays
or
Decrease the amount of people of pensionable age. 

Pick your favourite.
		
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I would suggest the large numbers of migrants the UK has seen since the mid 1990s has done little or nothing to increase tax revenues.   There has always been room for highly skilled and professional migrants who are employable, pay tax and receive little in benefits.   If we had an immigration policy based on the skills the country needed then indeed we would see a net benefit.   This has not been the case though and far to many migrants have been unskilled and rather than a net asset have been a liability due to their low wages verses the tax thresholds and benefits received.   Between 1995 and 2011 this deficit was in the region of 110 Billion pounds.

Immigration over the last twenty years has not made a  net  contribution (this takes into account of all immigration, not just EU)  and as such is doing nothing to support an ageing population blip, it is putting strain on a whole raft of public services though.

So whats your choice?


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## BoadieBroadus (Feb 24, 2016)

i'm probably more out than in. i just don't believe that anything is improved by having extra politicians.


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## bluewolf (Feb 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest the large numbers of migrants the UK has seen since the mid 1990s has done little or nothing to increase tax revenues.   There has always been room for highly skilled and professional migrants who are employable, pay tax and receive little in benefits.   If we had an immigration policy based on the skills the country needed then indeed we would see a net benefit.   This has not been the case though and far to many migrants have been unskilled and rather than a net asset have been a liability due to their low wages verses the tax thresholds and benefits received.   Between 1995 and 2011 this deficit was in the region of 110 Billion pounds.

Immigration over the last twenty years has not made a  net  contribution (this takes into account of all immigration, not just EU)  and as such is doing nothing to support an ageing population blip, it is putting strain on a whole raft of public services though.

So whats your choice?
		
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Ha, my choice?? Well, all the options I've listed are based on our current Economic system. A system which demands constant growth, and doesn't take into account the fact that we have finite resources and a natural limit to growth. The current path is a relatively short term measure that is effectively a Pyramid scheme. 

Therefore, the option I choose is................. None of the above. But that's another thread, on a different forum, at a different time. 

Anyway, which is your preferred choice?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Ha, my choice?? Well, all the options I've listed are based on our current Economic system. A system which demands constant growth, and doesn't take into account the fact that we have finite resources and a natural limit to growth. The current path is a relatively short term measure that is effectively a Pyramid scheme. 

Therefore, the option I choose is................. None of the above. But that's another thread, on a different forum, at a different time. 

Anyway, which is your preferred choice? 

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I had made it clear that it was none of your options.  I have explained in a few recent posts that IMO we would be OK with managed immigration that brought in many fewer people of a kind that can make a net contribution.  The current ageing population is only a blip and due to the 400,000 or so current births in the UK we don't need large numbers of migrants and certainly not low skill ones.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest the large numbers of migrants the UK has seen since the mid 1990s has done little or nothing to increase tax revenues....
		
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All the evidence I've seen has indicated that migrants make a greater Net Annual Fiscal Contribution  (ratio of taxes paid to benefits received) than natives - even when this is less than 1.0 (benefits received > taxes paid) 

What (official) stats are you using?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			All the evidence I've seen has indicated that migrants make a greater Net Annual Fiscal Contribution  (ratio of taxes paid to benefits received) than natives - even when this is less than 1.0 (benefits received > taxes paid) 

What (official) stats are you using?
		
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You need to look at the effects of 'All' immigration, not just from the EU.


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## bluewolf (Feb 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I had made it clear that it was none of your options.  I have explained in a few recent posts that IMO we would be OK with managed immigration that brought in many fewer people of a kind that can make a net contribution.  The current ageing population is only a blip and due to the 400,000 or so current births in the UK we don't need large numbers of migrants and certainly not low skill ones.
		
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If you don't mind me asking, why do you think the population imbalance is a "blip"?


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You need to look at the effects of 'All' immigration, not just from the EU.
		
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Indeed! I was!

I repeat....What official (and i'll add ' or independent') stats are you using?


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## Beezerk (Feb 24, 2016)

So it turns out the deal Cameron struck with the EU last week can be cancelled by the European high court. Awesome.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			So it turns out the deal Cameron struck with the EU last week can be cancelled by the European high court. Awesome.
		
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Does that mean we can go about life without having this referendum thrust down our throats at every turn. Bored rigid with it all already


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			So it turns out the deal Cameron struck with the EU last week can be cancelled by the European high court. Awesome.
		
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It can certainly be challenged in it! It's the European Court of Justice btw.

But the likelihood of success is pretty tiny imo. As everything that needed to make it 'binding' would appear to have been done!

Just a bit of bluster to lessen the impact of 'the deal' imo!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			If you don't mind me asking, why do you think the population imbalance is a "blip"?
		
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Baby Boomers and the current birth rate.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! I was!

I repeat....What official (and i'll add ' or independent') stats are you using?
		
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No time today but I will dig out the statistics showing that although EU migration has shown a small surplus, non  EU migration has greatly offset this to create a net overall loss.


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## bluewolf (Feb 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Baby Boomers and the current birth rate.
		
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As far as I remember (and I'm happy to be corrected), the current birth rate was recorded as 1.83. The birth rate necessary to maintain a first World population is 2.07 (approximately). Life expectancy is static/still slightly rising but slowing. It has been a while since I did any real population growth research, but if my figures are correct then the problem is only going to get worse!


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			As far as I remember (and I'm happy to be corrected), the current birth rate was recorded as 1.83. The birth rate necessary to maintain a first World population is 2.07 (approximately). Life expectancy is static/still slightly rising but slowing. It has been a while since I did any real population growth research, but if my figures are correct then the problem is only going to get worse!
		
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Birth rate has been more or less stable for some decades, but life expectancy has been rising, so a right shift in the age distribution has happened, and a massive rise in birth rate will be needed to restore a decent balance between taxpaying workers and tax consuming oldies. It would also take decades to work through to a working age population. Hence the need to import young working age people and kids.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			No time today but I will dig out the statistics showing that although EU migration has shown a small surplus, non  EU migration has greatly offset this to create a net overall loss.
		
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Btw. I need to make an adjustment yo my earlier statement about 'All the stats'..... There was 1 that showed that migration negatively affectd things. But as that was from Migration Watch, I'm rather dubious about how 'independent' that was! :rofl:


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Btw. I need to make an adjustment yo my earlier statement about 'All the stats'..... There was 1 that showed that migration negatively affectd things. But as that was from Migration Watch, I'm rather dubious about how 'independent' that was! :rofl:
		
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There are a number a articles around that explain the costs/benefits of immigration.   The more interesting ones are not those taking a short term view but look at the costs over a longer period. Immigrants tend to pay more into the exchequer in their earlier years then cost more as time goes on.   Many of the EU migrants are recent and will be net contributors but when you look at those that have been here longer who are mainly non EU then there is a net cost that more than offsets the short term gain.    If we are looking at immigration to shore up an aging population then I believe we are not going to do that.

Here is an article from the BBC which is not new but gives a fair overview of the pros and cons:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2016)

So looking at the forum as a snapshot it appears more want out that in with a number undecided - is that a good picture of the country and what they are thinking ?


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So looking at the forum as a snapshot it appears more want out that in with a number undecided - is that a good picture of the country and what they are thinking ?
		
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I don't believe 'the members of GM Golf Forum who voted' is a particularly representative sample of the UK electorate

But we'll find out in June!


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## ger147 (Mar 2, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So looking at the forum as a snapshot it appears more want out that in with a number undecided - is that a good picture of the country and what they are thinking ?
		
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It seems not...

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-shows-drop-in-support-for-brexit


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## MarkE (Mar 2, 2016)

Or just maybe....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN0VZ2QI


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Or just maybe....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN0VZ2QI

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Cheers - so it looks like it could be a fair representation


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## ger147 (Mar 2, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Or just maybe....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN0VZ2QI

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The latest poll of polls (the average of the last 6 polls) has 51% Stay and 49% Leave once the Undecided's are removed, so opinion poll wise at least it looks too close to call either way at the moment.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2016)

My biggest concern would be the actual turnout? I wonder what percentage of the voters will actually place a cross in the box in June


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My biggest concern would be the actual turnout? I wonder what percentage of the voters will actually place a cross in the box in June
		
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If you want in you best pray for a high turnout.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If you want in you best pray for a high turnout.
		
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Not sure what I want personally yet but I would agree that a low turnout favour the No vote


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