# How’s your moral compass



## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2022)

It’s difficult to broach this subject without mentiioning The “ P” word Which is banned on this Forum. So before you post keep Politics out of it or else it will be another topic blocked.
But, Royalty, Social media, Sports including F1, Football etc etc. There just seems to be a standard of morals that quite frankly is in the gutter. How have we got to the stage that respect seems to have gone out of the window. Not just that but how do we reverse the trend.

Thoughts please.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 14, 2022)

You get the leaders you deserve. Not sure the general populace behave any better. Most would jump at the chance to make a morally questionable decision because the rules allowed it at the time 🇲🇽


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## bobmac (Jan 14, 2022)

It's knowing the difference between right and wrong.


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## Imurg (Jan 14, 2022)




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## Dando (Jan 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



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Mate, my one could get a jumbo off the ground


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## fundy (Jan 14, 2022)

its like friday night is irony night and Im the only one who wasnt told


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## Leftitshort (Jan 14, 2022)

Every night is irony night. Double points on Friday though


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 14, 2022)

My parents brought me up to know wrong from right, respect my elders and have good manners. Done a few things over the years I'm not proud of and I know would have disappointed them but for the most part I try my best. Don't suffer fools but will always give people a second chance but after that I'm done.


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## patricks148 (Jan 14, 2022)

Looks like  it's thin on the ground for some on here🤣


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## Leftitshort (Jan 14, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My parents brought me up to know wrong from right, respect my elders and have good manners. Done a few things over the years I'm not proud of and I know would have disappointed them but for the most part I try my best. Don't suffer fools but will always give people a second chance but after that I'm done.
		
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Yes. Mine also brought me up to know right from wrong. The most important lesson they taught me was that of integrity. It’s always important to have a healthy relationship with the truth


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## drdel (Jan 14, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Yes. Mine also brought me up to know right from wrong. The most important lesson they taught me was that of integrity. It’s always important to have a healthy relationship with the truth
		
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I decided long ago that relying on the media, journalists and loud-mouths would be noise. Most people know the difference between moral behaviour and immorality : they just lack conviction.


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## bobmac (Jan 14, 2022)

And before anyone says you get your morals from religion, rubbish.
I have never been religious and I haven't killed anyone in ages.


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## patricks148 (Jan 14, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Yes. Mine also brought me up to know right from wrong. The most important lesson they taught me was that of integrity. It’s always important to have a healthy relationship with the truth
		
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And know right from wrong as you mentioned 😉


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2022)

drdel said:



			I decided long ago that relying on the media, journalists and loud-mouths would be noise. Most people know the difference between moral behaviour and immorality : they just *lack conviction*.
		
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You made me choke on my beer!


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## Leftitshort (Jan 14, 2022)

drdel said:



			I decided long ago that relying on the media, journalists and loud-mouths would be noise. Most people know the difference between moral behaviour and immorality : they just lack conviction.
		
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I think most people know right from wrong objectively, unless they are a sociopath. Some get confused objectively. There’s often some justification gymnastics going on


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## BiMGuy (Jan 14, 2022)

I was told the below. And is what I tell my kids

Be honest.
Respect is earned.
Own up to your mistakes.
Question everything, and make up your own mind.

My dad also said.
It’s better to seek forgiveness than ask permission.
And, never drink in a pub with a flat roof. 

I also tell my kids they can choose whether or not they can be angry at, or blame others when something goes wrong. Or they can choose to deal with it, learn from it, use it as motivation and move on.


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## theoneandonly (Jan 14, 2022)

I'm so bad that if we were on the cusp of a massive pandemic in which millions would die. I'd think fk it I ain't missing out on a holiday to Mexico for no one😂😅🤣😭😉🏆🎅


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2022)

Know right from wrong 
Respect is earned 
Follow the laws of the land 
Own your mistakes


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## SteveW86 (Jan 14, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			I'm so bad that if we were on the cusp of a massive pandemic in which millions would die. I'd think fk it I ain't missing out on a holiday to Mexico for no one😂😅🤣😭😉🏆🎅
		
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yeah, but have you seen the pictures of spring break in Cancun.


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## Dando (Jan 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Know right from wrong
Respect is earned
Follow the laws of the land
Own your mistakes
		
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More importantly, don’t eat yellow snow


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## JamesR (Jan 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I was told the below. And is what I tell my kids

And, *never* *drink* *in* a *pub* *with* a *flat* *roof*.
		
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Some of the best advice I’ve been given 👍


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 14, 2022)

Don't defecate on your own doorstep.

However, the garden of number 10 being full of it is another matter entirely, or so I'm led to believe.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			yeah, but have you seen the pictures of spring break in Cancun.
		
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I have 😁👍


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## IanM (Jan 14, 2022)

My dad said to me when I first went to vote, "they're all no bloody good!"

He was right about most things.

He also said,

If you know you edged it,  you walk. 

That mentality seems missing from  many walks of life.


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## Billysboots (Jan 14, 2022)

It’s quite simple for me. I try my best to treat others as I would expect to be treated myself.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 14, 2022)

"Treat others as you would like to be treated".
Was always drummed into me, I hope I'm reasonably close to that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2022)

Understanding that the right thing to do may not be what I want to do or what is best for me.

When doing the right thing, I must accept that my doing so may cause me short term difficulties, irritations or pain, but it will be OK in the longer term and have wider (social) benefits than being limited to simple personal benefit, self-gratification or enrichment.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 14, 2022)

Mum always said to me “ if you can help someone just do it.”
Most know right from wrong but there seems to be more every year that just don’t care.


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## Brads (Jan 15, 2022)

People are stupid
Nowt you can do about it


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## Crazyface (Jan 15, 2022)

IanM said:



			My dad said to me when I first went to vote, "they're all no bloody good!"

He was right about most things.

He also said,

If you know you edged it,  you walk.

That mentality seems missing from  many walks of life.
		
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I had to read that a few times to get it. Good advice though. Saves a lot of hassle in the long run.


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## bobmac (Jan 15, 2022)

It's good to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong


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## AmandaJR (Jan 15, 2022)

I'm in the "do unto others" camp too. I was once told by a NLP Practitioner that it was a flawed moral to live ones life by and would result in constant disappointment. He was right but I'm not going to change anytime soon.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2022)

I lay a lot of present day ' low moral standards' firmly at the door of social media.
It must be a nightmare nowadays working in any position at a golf club......suddenly everyone and their dogs are now 'experts'.
In my day every member knew the small number of club ' Enos ' and gave them a wide berth.
[Enos ....eee knows it all]


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 15, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			You get the leaders you deserve. Not sure the general populace behave any better. Most would jump at the chance to make a morally questionable decision because the rules allowed it at the time 🇲🇽
		
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Except we're talking about folks who are not following rules.

I really don't agree with your premise, maybe it's the deeply ingrained Scottish calvinism, but most folks follow rules, as we've seen during Covid, and most folks put in a position of responsibility will carry out the role diligently.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 15, 2022)

IanM said:



			If you know you edged it,  you walk.
		
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This. Something to live by


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2022)

I like this:
"If you compare yourself to others you will become vain and disappointed as there will always be greater and lesser people than yourself"


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And before anyone says you get your morals from religion, rubbish.
I have never been religious and I haven't killed anyone in ages.
		
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If someone gets their morals from their religion then they are quite entitled to do so.  Surely you're pushing your own beliefs onto them by feeling the need to preemptively rubbish them. Quite ironic.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 15, 2022)

And by small extension “not suffer fools and party on, dudes”.


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## bobmac (Jan 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If someone gets their morals from their religion then they are quite entitled to do so.  Surely you're pushing your own beliefs onto them by feeling the need to preemptively rubbish them. Quite ironic.
		
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I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone.
I'm not the one going door to door threatening people with an eternity, burning in hell unless I believe what they believe, especially when they tell it to young children.
I just don't need someone else's god to tell me what is right and wrong.
If religious people want to believe what is right and wrong is based on the bible and the teachings of god, then I suggest they avoid the old testament.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone.
I'm not the one going door to door threatening people with an eternity, burning in hell unless I believe what they believe, especially when they tell it to young children.
I just don't need someone else's god to tell me what is right and wrong.
If religious people want to believe what is right and wrong is based on the bible and the teachings of god, then I suggest they avoid the old testament.
		
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And I suggest you make an effort to understand a subject before throwing insults at it.

By rubbishing others beliefs you are pushing your beliefs at others   Can't you see the irony in that.


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## bobmac (Jan 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			And I suggest you make an effort to understand a subject before *throwing insults at it*.
		
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What insults have I thrown?
When the subject of morality is discussed it's not too long before god is mentioned.
I merely gave my opinion that I don't believe in stuff other people believe in as it just doesn't make sense, hence the reference to the old testament.
And before anyone wants to tell me not all religions are the same, I know, other religions are available.

I've lost count how many times I've been asked...
_''If you don't believe in god, where do you get your morals from''_
Then I'm quoted Romans 2:15

Would you say Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is a good moral lesson?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What insults have I thrown?
When the subject of morality is discussed it's not too long before god is mentioned.
I merely gave my opinion that I don't believe in stuff other people believe in as it just doesn't make sense, hence the reference to the old testament.
And before anyone wants to tell me not all religions are the same, I know, other religions are available.

I've lost count how many times I've been asked...
_''If you don't believe in god, where do you get your morals from''_
Then I'm quoted Romans 2:15

Would you say Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is a good moral lesson?
		
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You raised the subject, no one else.

Live and let live I say. I just don't believe you are being constantly harassed by evangelical Christians, you seem to be the one with issues.


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## bobmac (Jan 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You raised the subject, no one else.
		
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Yes, I know.



SocketRocket said:



			Live and let live I say. I just don't believe you are being constantly harassed by evangelical Christians, you seem to be the one with issues.
		
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I agree, live and let live. I won't bother them if they don't bother me. But they do.
At my front door, on the high street, even my Facebook feed is full of religious sorts trying to sign me up to their own special church.
I've had three FB messages this morning reminding me that tomorrow is 'World religion day' They are now all blocked obviously.

But just to be clear, I'm not being constantly harassed by evangelical Christians, but then I never said I was.
And if I do have issues with religion, you can blame the vicar who tried to 'interfere' with me at Sunday school when I was about 8. Don't talk to me about his morals


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Yes, I know.



I agree, live and let live. I won't bother them if they don't bother me. But they do.
At my front door, on the high street, even my Facebook feed is full of religious sorts trying to sign me up to their own special church.
I've had three FB messages this morning reminding me that tomorrow is 'World religion day' They are now all blocked obviously.

But just to be clear, I'm not being constantly harassed by evangelical Christians, but then I never said I was.
And if I do have issues with religion, you can blame the vicar who tried to 'interfere' with me at Sunday school when I was about 8. Don't talk to me about his morals
		
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His profession weren't responsible for his perversion, his personal morals were and he would have been untrue to his faith.   When did I talk to you about his morals.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 15, 2022)

Bob n Socket
Handbags away now please 👍


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## bobmac (Jan 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			His profession weren't responsible for his perversion, his personal morals were and he would have been untrue to his faith.   When did I talk to you about his morals.
		
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You suggested I had issues and I explained what they were 
But once again, religion gets a free pass.
I'm out


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			And I suggest you make an effort to understand a subject before throwing insults at it.

By rubbishing others beliefs you are pushing your beliefs at others   Can't you see the irony in that.
		
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Religion is a belief, not believing in religion is fact. There's a massive difference.


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## JamesR (Jan 15, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I lay a lot of present day ' low moral standards' firmly at the door of social media.
]
		
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I lay it at the door of Maxwell, Murdoch, The Barclay Bros etc

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1089559946713329664


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			It's knowing the difference between right and wrong.
		
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…as Adam ate fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil…and so it came to pass 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And before anyone says you get your morals from religion, rubbish.
I have never been religious and I haven't killed anyone in ages.
		
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…and as imperfect as my faith is, I haven’t killed anyone either.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 16, 2022)

My moral compas has been adjusted/skewed  over the years.
I fear harmless humour has sadly been lost to paranoia.


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 16, 2022)

In the great library of human understanding, religion is in the fiction section. It is all made-up stuff - works of imagination.

There are many moral messages in works of fiction that are worth reading. Religion has no special status above any of these in my understanding.

If anyone criticises the works of Tolkein, I am not outraged and I do not feel the need to exact violence on those that criticise nor enact laws to make such criticism punishable.

This is my view on religion.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 16, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…as Adam ate fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil…and so it came to pass 😉
		
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Seriously, just so we know. - Are you really a Creationist ?


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## Robster59 (Jan 16, 2022)

I think we've floated away from the main topic here. 
For me, my moral compass is

I try to treat everyone equally and fairly
I don't judge people as soon as I meet them
I try to treat others as I would like to be treated
If I can help someone I can
Give people there benefit of the doubt, if there is a doubt
I fail on all these at times as I'm only human, but I do my best.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Religion is a belief, not believing in religion is fact. There's a massive difference.
		
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Not believing in religion is a belief.
What Fact is it that suggests otherwise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Seriously, just so we know. - Are you really a Creationist ?
		
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No - and a very, very long way from being one (you’ll have got that from the 😉)

But as you ask - my core moral values, as instilled in me by my parents and other relatives, are I suppose grounded in the teachings and writings of the New Testament, and I use my faith to guide my actions - especially when I have to choose between what my own will wants me to do, and what I come to understand to be the right thing to do.  Much of the time they are aligned, but not always, and sometimes they are quite divergent.  That’s when I try and use the belief and faith I might have my God (my specific higher power) to guide me.   But it’s often difficult.


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## bobmac (Jan 17, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			my core moral values, as instilled in me by my parents and other relatives, are I suppose grounded in the teachings and writings of the New Testament,
		
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Now this is my main problem which stops me from being religious.
If the bible is the word of god, you have to follow it all and I can't do that.
If you follow the new testament, how can you ignore the old, you either follow the whole bible or none of it. And if you get your morals from the OT, there's some nasty stuff in there, lots of stoning going on. Is it moral to own someone as a slave and beat them?
It seems to me there's a lot of cherry picking going on, keep the 10 commandments but forget the stoning and the killing.
Who am I to decide which bits of gods word is 'wrong'


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## chrisd (Jan 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Who am I to decide which bits of gods word is 'wrong'
		
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We are all free to do that, I certainly can't get past the fact that the world was, apparently, created, and if you can't believe God made the earth then everything else after that is clearly nonsense. Let's  be honest, most religions are just a way to control the masses, do as I say or you won't go to heaven when you die, a bit like telling a 5 year old if you don't behave you wont go to the cinema but on a grander scale. Also I believe the current Archbishop of Canterbury once said you could be a Christian and believe in creation and the scientific big bang theory - no you can't! God making the earth is a pretty fundamental start to Christian belief I'd say.


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## RichA (Jan 17, 2022)

I have no religion and don't believe in anything spiritual. My mum's stepbrother was a COfE vicar and, after 2 divorces and remarriages, a CofS rector. As a teenager, I had long conversations with him about his work and beliefs. His view, which he said was shared by many of his colleagues, was that the faith was in people rather than anything supernatural but their shared belief provided a framework to provide support and comfort, not control. 
My parents always said that he never really believed in god - he just liked being a social worker and enjoyed dressing up. Either way, he was a good guy and provided that support and comfort to many people. He certainly did no harm.


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## bobmac (Jan 17, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I certainly can't get past the fact that the world was, apparently, created,
		
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My reply to that statement is always when was it created?
The bible suggests around 6,000 years ago.
Scientists of course disagree.
And if the scientists are right, then god was wrong again.
Not to mention the sun going round the earth.
And if god created light on the first day and the sun on the 4th day, how did that work?
And when did he create the dinosaurs?
And was Noah really 900 years old? And if so, how many offspring did he have?
There are just too many mistakes.



RichA said:



			Either way, he was a good guy and provided that support and comfort to many people. He certainly did no harm.
		
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I'm sure there are many good moral people all over the world who do good and help others but you don't need religion to do good.


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## RichA (Jan 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure there are many good moral people all over the world who do good and help others but you don't need religion to do good.
		
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I'm sure too. I hope I'm one of them. I was just suggesting that "no religion" doesn't have to be anti-religion.
If some people need a crutch to get through life, it's good if there are people to provide it. There are many who can't cope with our idea that we're just occupying the void for a very short time before leaving only dust and a few short-lived memories.


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 17, 2022)

I'm often offended by religion.
I rarely bleat about it.
Mainly ignore it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2022)

I am always a bit bemused when those of no faith; those who dismiss as a fairy tale the two collections of books that comprise the Bible; and choose to lump all traditions and denominations together with no recognition that these can and do hold very different approaches to taking understanding from reading or hearing the Bible read - that those same people who think it’s a fairy tale, choose to advise me that if I want to call myself a Christian then I must believe every word and phrase as written. 

Well the good news is that I don’t - and nobody requires me to.

As I have commented before, when I read or listen to a Bible reading I ‘listen *for *the word of God’…I am *not* listening *to *it.  For me that is a very big difference.


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 17, 2022)

If we can get back to "moral compass".

Want and like - immature thinking - can lead to irresponsible or criminal behaviour.

Need and ought - mature thinking.

The person driving at 42mph in a 30 zone is doing what he/she wants to do and likes to do.
This is unlikely to be what he/she needs to do and certainly not what ought to be done.

The same can be said for parties during lockdown. They did not need to and certainly ought not to have done.

Who will be making choices today based on want/like rather than need/ought?


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Not believing in religion is a belief.
What Fact is it that suggests otherwise.
		
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You are mixing the concepts of Atheism (actively not believing) and Agnosticism (believing that we can't tell). 
It's a 'language' thing. If someone states, truly, that they don't 'believe in <anything/nothing in particular>' then it's *their belief that's* *a/the fact*,not the subject/topic of their belief. They could still be wrong. 
Of course, *faith* is something that cannot be 'proven wrong' because if attempted, the final, end of argument, statement will alway be along the lines of 'but/well, I have faith...'!


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			If we can get back to "moral compass".

Want and like - immature thinking - can lead to irresponsible or criminal behaviour.

Need and ought - mature thinking.
...
		
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To me, Golf provides lots of opportunities to detect or challenge a person's 'moral compass'.
I don't believe that the descriptions above, though applicable in some situations, can be applied to golf in the way you've described.

And, btw, I'm sure that there are plenty of situations where there's a crossover. Some (rare) situations may men that it's actually a 'Need' to, for example, to travel at 42 in a 30 zone, so is actually 'mature' thinking.


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## bobmac (Jan 17, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I have commented before, when I read or listen to a Bible reading I ‘listen *for *the word of God’…I am *not* listening *to *it.  For me that is a very big difference.
		
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I've been asking these types of questions for over 50 years in an effort to understand why people believe the things they do. I'm still waiting for the answers.
I've been told by some that god will let me know when he's ready, I just have to have faith.
I've been told god moves in mysterious ways.
And I've been told that I get my morals/laws when god writes them on my heart.

So I guess when it comes to making good decisions, I'll just have to wing it until the big man decides I'm ready.


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 17, 2022)

In reply to Tashy’s question:

Respect other peoples’ views and show humility.
Treat others as you would wish to be treated.
Try and be helpful with people.
Treat others as equals.
Avoid conflict and try and seek a solution if possible.
Accept I make mistakes and when this happens apologise.
Avoid discussing religion on a  forum as this will ensure the subject invariably will soon go off track


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I've been asking these types of questions for over 50 years in an effort to understand why people believe the things they do. I'm still waiting for the answers.
I've been told by some that god will let me know when he's ready, I just have to have faith.
I've been told god moves in mysterious ways.
And I've been told that I get my morals/laws when god writes them on my heart.

So I guess when it comes to making good decisions, *I'll just have to wing it until the big man decides I'm ready.*

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For _me_ it’s not this, but it’s when _I_ am ready - willingly and with an open heart and mind.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 17, 2022)

A good indication of someone’s moral compass is whether they put their trolley back at the supermarket, or just leave it in the car park.


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## bobmac (Jan 17, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For _me_ it’s not this, but it’s when _I_ am ready - willingly and with an open heart and mind.
		
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I guess that's the difference, you're prepared to believe without evidence because you have faith. I need evidence before I can believe and so far your mate hasn't given me any.
C'est la vie


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			To me, Golf provides lots of opportunities to detect or challenge a person's 'moral compass'.
I don't believe that the descriptions above, though applicable in some situations, can be applied to golf in the way you've described.

And, btw, I'm sure that there are *plenty *of situations where there's a crossover. Some (rare) situations may men that it's actually a 'Need' to, for example, to travel at 42 in a 30 zone, so is actually 'mature' thinking.
		
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Comparatively very few rather than plenty, hence my qualifier of "unlikely".


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2022)

Its interesting to me is that many look to external factors for their moral 'compass'.

Ancient (BC) philosophers (Chine, Rome etc) looked at a logical mechanism of control. Religions do the same through a belief in a higher being that dishes out punishment in the hereafter to discourage and induce fear and as a basis to instil control.

Religious books merely document the guidance as a psuedo rule 'books' and like the party game 'Chinese Whispers' have changed to the convenience of the religion's leaders. Horrendous *immora*l acts have been committed by religious cults as their leaders try to extend their sphere of control.

Morality is down to a basic understanding of what is right for society and IMO most people know what's right and what is not.


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## bobmac (Jan 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			A good indication of someone’s moral compass is whether they put their
Saturday was tough going. With the temperature and wind some holes were playing 40 yards longer.

trolley back at the supermarket, or just leave it in the car park.
		
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Oops


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## BiMGuy (Jan 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Oops  

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No idea what has gone on there 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2022)

drdel said:



			Its interesting to me is that many look to external factors for their moral 'compass'.

Ancient (BC) philosophers (Chine, Rome etc) looked at a logical mechanism of control. Religions do the same through a belief in a higher being that dishes out punishment in the hereafter to discourage and induce fear and as a basis to instil control.

Religious books merely document the guidance as a psuedo rule 'books' and like the party game 'Chinese Whispers' have changed to the convenience of the religion's leaders. Horrendous *immora*l acts have been committed by religious cults as their leaders try to extend their sphere of control.

Morality is down to a basic understanding of what is right for society and IMO most people know what's right and what is not.
		
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Most of that is because humans are naturally tribal - just like herds and the groups within herds. 'Evolution' has meant that such (successful) traits gain precedence.


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			A good indication of someone’s moral compass is whether they put their trolley back at the supermarket, or just leave it in the car park.
		
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If you are using Aldi there is a £1 charge so that may/ will make the moral compass different!


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			If you are using Aldi there is a £1 charge so that may/ will make the moral compass different!
		
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Same at my local Tesco! I BiMGuy out of touch?
But certainly, a financial incentive 'helps'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I guess that's the difference, you're prepared to believe without evidence because you have faith. I need evidence before I can believe and so far your mate hasn't given me any.
C'est la vie
		
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Sorry but you keep going down the single path of what (and ‘who’) you think that I should believe and believe in (my mate), and what acting in the context of faith might mean for an individual. 

On any issue I look to develop an understanding of what is right and what is wrong, beyond what I might myself perceive or what my will might tell me.  And where I can, and as best I can, I act on that understanding. 

Many agnostics and atheists refer to that ‘looking beyond myself’ as seeking guidance from a Higher Power - a God of their own understanding - my Higher Power just so happens to be of a religious nature.

As it happens at the moment my moral compass is spinning all over the place, with some really difficult issues to address…with what is best for myself and my Mrs not being our most pressing concern.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Same at my local Tesco! I BiMGuy out of touch?
But certainly, a financial incentive 'helps'!
		
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Tesco, Sainsbury and Morrisons near me don’t require a coin. Aldi and Lidl do.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 17, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am always a bit bemused when those of no faith; those who dismiss as a fairy tale the two collections of books that comprise the Bible; and choose to lump all traditions and denominations together with no recognition that these can and do hold very different approaches to taking understanding from reading or hearing the Bible read - that those same people who think it’s a fairy tale, choose to advise me that if I want to call myself a Christian then I must believe every word and phrase as written. 

Well the good news is that I don’t - and nobody requires me to.

As I have commented before, when I read or listen to a Bible reading I ‘listen *for *the word of God’…I am *not* listening *to *it.  For me that is a very big difference.
		
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H, if I sent you to Tescos to buy some cherries, I'm sure you would come back with the best of them. 😉😂


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			My reply to that statement is always when was it created?
The bible suggests around 6,000 years ago.
Scientists of course disagree.
And if the scientists are right, then god was wrong again.
Not to mention the sun going round the earth.
And if god created light on the first day and the sun on the 4th day, how did that work?
And when did he create the dinosaurs?
And was Noah really 900 years old? And if so, how many offspring did he have?
There are just too many mistakes.



I'm sure there are many good moral people all over the world who do good and help others but you don't need religion to do good.
		
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The bible is a human construct. The bible suggests 6,000 years, not god. Can’t blame god for that one. There’s many mistakes made by man, including most of the bible, especially the Old Testament. Isn’t it strange that way back in the mists of time a “bible” was constructed which travelled the world in a time when global comms didn’t exist. Bit of a miracle really.

I’m a believer, in something, but I don’t believe in any of the OT and only some of the New.

In the main, I’m not fussed in arguing the toss on fairy tales and sky fairies, as non-believers describe things -their choice. Genuinely not fussed. I don’t believe non-believers are wrong but, equally, I don’t believe they’re right. I, genuinely, don’t care either way about their beliefs - their choice.

I’m very comfortable with my beliefs. I don’t have to justify them, nor debate them- I’m happy. Whatever anyone else’s beliefs are, their choice, and good luck to them. And they might even be right. I’m doing no harm with my beliefs, and they’re doing no harm with theirs. Live and let live.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			You are mixing the concepts of Atheism (actively not believing) and Agnosticism (believing that we can't tell).
It's a 'language' thing. If someone states, truly, that they don't 'believe in <anything/nothing in particular>' then it's *their belief that's* *a/the fact*,not the subject/topic of their belief. They could still be wrong.
Of course, *faith* is something that cannot be 'proven wrong' because if attempted, the final, end of argument, statement will alway be along the lines of 'but/well, I have faith...'!
		
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No I'm not.

My comment you quoted was to a particular comment that was contradictory and not relating  a theory on Atheism or Agnosticism.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 17, 2022)

I have faith that between them, Socket, Foxy and Hogie can suck the bejesus out of any thread they choose.

🙄🙄


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Now this is my main problem which stops me from being religious.
If the bible is the word of god, you have to follow it all and I can't do that.
If you follow the new testament, how can you ignore the old, you either follow the whole bible or none of it. And if you get your morals from the OT, there's some nasty stuff in there, lots of stoning going on. Is it moral to own someone as a slave and beat them?
It seems to me there's a lot of cherry picking going on, keep the 10 commandments but forget the stoning and the killing.
Who am I to decide which bits of gods word is 'wrong'
		
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If you really want to understand those things then you have to study the new testament and understand how it explains that Christ was put on the earth to repeal much of the old testament and how he turned against those that upheld it.  The old testament explains the way people needed to live in those turbulent times, the New testament explains a new way. It also makes it clear that people don't go to heaven and never will.   That is all part of the missleading stories perpetrated by the main stream religions to frighten people.
Or you can dismiss it as gobbledygook, it's entirely up to the individual.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I have faith that between them, Socket, Foxy and Hogie can suck the bejesus out of any thread they choose.

🙄🙄
		
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It's a discussion, a debate.  Also why just us three, others have been making their views quite strongly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I have faith that between them, Socket, Foxy and Hogie can suck the bejesus out of any thread they choose.

🙄🙄
		
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hallelujah - praise be to golfing gods 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			H, if I sent you to Tescos to buy some cherries, I'm sure you would come back with the best of them. 😉😂
		
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As much as I might like to accept the task and that I'd thoroughly enjoy doing it, I know that I wouldn't be the best person to choose the best cherries and that my wife would, I would therefore delegate the task...And so even though I'd miss out on the pleasure of choosing them, I'd have the longer term pleasure of eating the best


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			. It also makes it clear that people don't go to heaven and never will. T
		
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Even I, as an unbeliever, understand enough about Christianity to know that one of its cornerstones is that those who believe in Christ as the son of God will go to heaven.
"Those that believe in me will never die "
"No one goes to the Father except through me"
Etc

Perhaps you could explain what does happen when you die, if Christianity is the Truth.?
Where, if not heaven?


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## Rooter (Jan 18, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Where, if not heaven?
		
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I am the thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glints in snow
I am the sunlight on ripened grain,
I am the gentle, autumn rain.
As you awake with morning’s hush,
I am the swift, up-flinging rush
Of quiet birds in circling flight,
I am the day transcending night. 

I like the poem, you never die if people don't forget you.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Even I, as an unbeliever, understand enough about Christianity to know that one of its cornerstones is that those who believe in Christ as the son of God will go to heaven.
"Those that believe in me will never die "
"No one goes to the Father except through me"
Etc

Perhaps you could explain what does happen when you die, if Christianity is the Truth.?
Where, if not heaven?
		
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Those quotes don't suggest people will go to heaven.  The scriptures do explain that when we die we are returned to dust.   They also explain how the end of days will come about followed by a resurrection where a number of people will be given immortality on earth, not heaven.

Im not trying to preach to people but there's a great deal of untruths perpetrated by the mainstream churches relating to the messages in the Bible's scriptures.

I won't comment further here but if you really have those questions you are at your free will to study the subject further or not.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Those quotes don't suggest people will go to heaven.  The scriptures do explain that when we die we are returned to dust.   They also explain how the end of days will come about followed by a resurrection where a number of people will be given immortality on earth, not heaven.

Im not trying to preach to people but there's a great deal of untruths perpetrated by the mainstream churches relating to the messages in the Bible's scriptures.

I won't comment further here but if you really have those questions you are at your free will to study the subject further or not.
		
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Well, this will be my last comment on heaven subject, but I cannot understand how you (and others) believe in the immortality of this planet, when Astro physics tells us that the Sun will expand towards the end of its life and the nearer planets, including Earth, will be consumed.
Prediction, not proven fact I know, but it's based on more fact than a collection of ancient scripts.😀


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, this will be my last comment on heaven subject, but I cannot understand how you (and others) believe in the immortality of this planet, when Astro physics tells us that the Sun will expand towards the end of its life and the nearer planets, including Earth, will be consumed.
Prediction, not proven fact I know, but it's based on more fact than a collection of ancient scripts.😀
		
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Science also told us Vesuvius would erupt again, years ago, but it didn’t happen. Science can be fallible too.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 18, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I am the thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glints in snow
I am the sunlight on ripened grain,
I am the gentle, autumn rain.
As you awake with morning’s hush,
I am the swift, up-flinging rush
Of quiet birds in circling flight,
I am the day transcending night. 

I like the poem, you never die if people don't forget you.
		
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This is what I believe as the best explanation
With apologies to Erin Hanson.

I’m here to share a secret; I am not who I’ve always been, The world that lies outstretched before me, Is not the only one I’ve seen, 
I’ve travelled on the tails of comets, I’ve burned up in the hearts of stars, I’ve been spat out of supernovas, That left me scattered near and far, 
I have dined in distant galaxies, and watched the planets spin, and I've danced for a lifetime upon Saturn's dusty rings
I’ve been here for long enough, To learn what makes the willow weep, I’ve sung celestial lullabies, That sent the moon to sleep, I’ve been both the flowing water, And the stone that blocks it’s way, I’ve been frozen, I’ve been molten, And I’ll be again someday,
 Though I’ve been a billion things, This is the first one that laughed and cried, I’m pieces of the universe, who lived  as human for a while.


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Science also told us Vesuvius would erupt again, years ago, but it didn’t happen. Science can be fallible too.
		
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Well, it did in 1944 and 'all the signs' are that it will erupt again in the future. It's still active and highly monitored but there's no accurate way to predict WHEN though, except very near the event. Volcanic activity is a much longer term phenomenon than human lifetime!
https://theromanguy.com/italy-trave...erupt-again-mount-vesuvius-facts-and-history/


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2022)

If we’re quoting poetry, one of my favourites, Oyzimandias;

”My name is Ozymandias, king of kings, look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.”
Nothing besides remains.

When we’re gone, we’re gone. Doesn’t matter how ‘big’ we are, Nothing is left apart from a few memories and maybe some gold lettering on an honours board.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Science also told us Vesuvius would erupt again, years ago, but it didn’t happen. Science can be fallible too.
		
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Science does get things wrong. You can pick and choose examples to build a case to discredit science. We once thought the earth was flat etc etc……

However. No one has ever provided a single shred of evidence as to the existence of any one of the thousands of gods people have worshipped since the idea of a god was first concocted. Or for that matter that there is an afterlife.


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## Robster59 (Jan 18, 2022)

Sorry, I thought this was a moral compass thread?  It seems to have moved on to being a religious one.


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Sorry, I thought this was a moral compass thread?  It seems to have moved on to being a religious one.
		
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Inevitable really. 'Back in the day' they were intrinsically linked!


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## Robster59 (Jan 18, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Inevitable really. 'Back in the day' they were intrinsically linked!
		
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But they don't have to be.  It's only inevitable because people pull it that way.  I am not religious at all, but I have a moral compass.  I don't need religion to tell me what are the right and wrong things to do.


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## Crow (Jan 18, 2022)

Perhaps religion should be added to politics as a taboo subject?


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2022)

Crow said:



			Perhaps religion should be added to politics as a taboo subject?
		
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Masonic Lodge rules?


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## chrisd (Jan 18, 2022)

But religion can be discussed sens .......... yeah ban it!


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			But they don't have to be.  It's only inevitable because people pull it that way.  I am not religious at all, but I have a moral compass.  I don't need religion to tell me what are the right and wrong things to do.
		
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Well, it only took until post 12, which got a response, which....


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## bobmac (Jan 18, 2022)

Crow said:



			Perhaps religion should be added to politics as a taboo subject?
		
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Why?
As long as the posts are civil there should be no problem


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## Imurg (Jan 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			one has ever provided a single shred of evidence as to the existence of any one of the thousands of gods .
		
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Ah..but the Babelfish is a dead giveaway...


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## Beezerk (Jan 18, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Why?
As long as the posts are civil there should be no problem
		
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Well that’s the problem isn’t it 😂


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## Robster59 (Jan 18, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Ah..but the Babelfish is a dead giveaway...
View attachment 40689

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True, but God then disappeared in a puff of logic.
_Now, it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that something so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.                                                       
"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. _


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 18, 2022)

All religions are works of fiction - the authors' imagination.
Discussing religions is no different from discussing books, films etc.
There are some nice bits in religions and some bad bits.
What's the big deal?
Why get het up about it?
Behave.
Think about your moral compass.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 18, 2022)

I don't think morals have fallen into the gutter (generally). I am sure Royals, Politicians, Sportspeople and just celebrities in general have always acted in less than perfect ways throughout time. Just like the rest of us. We are all human. We make mistakes, we make poor judgments, some of us are more selfish than others, etc. Individuals may act in a completely unacceptable way. However, that does not mean everyone associated with that group act in the same way. If anything, you could argue that morals have improved, not declined. The world seemed a more racist, homophobic, sexist, etc place decades ago compared to now (i.e. it was openly acceptable within society, so I am not being critical of people back then, it is just that certain views were not challenged at the time, or as readily).

However, if the public think that standards are slipping within these people we read about, I think they need to take a harder look at how we are getting this information. THE MEDIA. As far as I'm concerned, treat the media with extreme caution. They are not interested in providing us good quality news. Nice positive stories do not heighten emotions of the public, and are only really good as a filler in amongst all the doom and gloom. Journalists want to find the absolute worst in people, even if that means very loose interpretation of a photo, or editing a detailed answer into a misleading headline. Because they know the public will react to these headlines, and judge someone based on a headline or a photo. And, with so many media channels compared to years ago, there is more competition within media to bring the most sensational stories, and providing their own spin to these stories. Furthermore, the internet and social media has allowed million and millions of people to voice their opinions, and react to Memes, many of which do not have a thread of truth.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't think morals have fallen into the gutter (generally). I am sure Royals, Politicians, Sportspeople and just celebrities in general have always acted in less than perfect ways throughout time. Just like the rest of us. We are all human. We make mistakes, we make poor judgments, some of us are more selfish than others, etc. Individuals may act in a completely unacceptable way. However, that does not mean everyone associated with that group act in the same way. If anything, you could argue that morals have improved, not declined. The world seemed a more racist, homophobic, sexist, etc place decades ago compared to now (i.e. it was openly acceptable within society, so I am not being critical of people back then, it is just that certain views were not challenged at the time, or as readily).

However, if the public think that standards are slipping within these people we read about, I think they need to take a harder look at how we are getting this information. THE MEDIA. As far as I'm concerned, treat the media with extreme caution. They are not interested in providing us good quality news. Nice positive stories do not heighten emotions of the public, and are only really good as a filler in amongst all the doom and gloom. Journalists want to find the absolute worst in people, even if that means very loose interpretation of a photo, or editing a detailed answer into a misleading headline. Because they know the public will react to these headlines, and judge someone based on a headline or a photo. And, with so many media channels compared to years ago, there is more competition within media to bring the most sensational stories, and providing their own spin to these stories. Furthermore, the internet and social media has allowed million and millions of people to voice their opinions, and react to Memes, many of which do not have a thread of truth.

.
		
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An excellent post


.
As to standards falling, what I find now is a callousness that wasn't there 50 or so years ago.
YMMV, but that has been my experience.


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## stefanovic (Jan 18, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			All religions are works of fiction - the authors' imagination.
Discussing religions is no different from discussing books, films etc.
There are some nice bits in religions and some bad bits.
What's the big deal?
Why get het up about it?
Behave.
Think about your moral compass.
		
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I always end up believing what Richard Dawkins has to say.
Richard Dawkins Quotes About Morality | A-Z Quotes (azquotes.com)


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			True, but God then disappeared in a puff of logic.
_Now, it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that something so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.                                                       
"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. _

Click to expand...

Adams was a true genius! Brain the size of a planet!


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2022)

Crow said:



			Perhaps religion should be added to politics as a taboo subject?
		
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Maybe it is protected by law and banning it might not be wise. Article 18 of the UN Charter. Article 9 of the ECHR. The U.K. has signed up to 2 international treaties on it, and has its own domestic law.

Any conversation can be sympathetically managed.

There was a great discussion on here a year or so back about religion that was very civil. Great exchange of views, and acknowledgement of the different beliefs. Yes there was the odd call of sky fairies etc but even the more voluble posters were ‘jerked’ back for being too derogatory.

It can be done, it just needs us all to be adults.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 18, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I always end up believing what Richard Dawkins has to say.
Richard Dawkins Quotes About Morality | A-Z Quotes (azquotes.com)

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I do enjoy listening to Richard Dawkins. Sam Harris is another good one.


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## RichA (Jan 18, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			All religions are works of fiction - the authors' imagination.
Discussing religions is no different from discussing books, films etc.
There are some nice bits in religions and some bad bits.
What's the big deal?
Why get het up about it?
Behave.
Think about your moral compass.
		
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stefanovic said:



			I always end up believing what Richard Dawkins has to say.
Richard Dawkins Quotes About Morality | A-Z Quotes (azquotes.com)

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Without even trying, Voyager manages to summarise the less obnoxious bits of Dawkins without sounding like a pompous twit.


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## Backache (Jan 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Science also told us Vesuvius would erupt again, years ago, but it didn’t happen. Science can be fallible too.
		
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BiMGuy said:



			Science does get things wrong. You can pick and choose examples to build a case to discredit science. We once thought the earth was flat etc etc……
		
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Without wishing to discuss religion I'm not sure that Science is 'wrong' or 'right' It is continually updating theories of how things work and why they work, any part of which can be falsified as knowledge evolves. Scientists can be wrong or right but any part of scientific knowledge is really only provisional, all be it some things are an awful lot more established and certain than others.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Science does get things wrong. You can pick and choose examples to build a case to discredit science. We once thought the earth was flat etc etc……
		
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I’m not looking to discredit science, only show that science can be wrong too.


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Science does get things wrong. You can pick and choose examples to build a case to discredit science. We once thought the earth was flat etc etc……
...
		
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H'mm! Perhaps this will change your mind about where that view came from! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2022)

I have no issues whatsoever with anyone being dismissive or otherwise being anti-religion and making strong statements to that effect.  But I am afraid that too often, and what disappoints, is that much that is stated is misrepresentation and in many instances uninformed generalisations that simply do not apply in the present day across the many various traditions and denominations.

Further too many statements are made that seem to display an apparent lack of understanding of how many use their beliefs and faith as a grounding for their life - providing an underpinning of their moral compass…which is what this discussion is all about.

And I am afraid that I do get rather irked when I am told what I must believe, by others who don‘t believe a word of what they are telling me that I must believe.


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## Pants (Jan 18, 2022)

I think that my moral compass went south - along with the rest of my body


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 19, 2022)

Banning political discussion was a good idea after all.
At long last, I'm no longer held personally responsible for US firearms laws.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Banning political discussion was a good idea after all.
At long last, I'm no longer held personally responsible for US firearms laws.
		
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You never were personally responsible for it and anyone suggesting that is what wanted banning, not the subject matter.


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## bobmac (Jan 19, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I am afraid that I do get rather irked when I am told what I must believe, by others who don‘t believe a word of what they are telling me that I must believe.
		
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At least you're not threatened with an eternity, burning in hell if you don't believe what they believe.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 19, 2022)

No subjects needed banning IMO, just certain posters needed to be reined in.  Their posting style is deliberately confrontational/provocative. I’d include the baiting of SILH on religion. He’s got his views, why can’t they be respected.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 19, 2022)

bobmac said:



			At least you're not threatened with an eternity, burning in hell if you don't believe what they believe.
		
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If you don’t believe in it it’s a empty threat. Religion isn’t about you, it’s about them, and them are different from you & each other. Let them believe what they want


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## bobmac (Jan 19, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Let them believe what they want
		
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It's not always that simple


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 19, 2022)

No one is baiting anyone on what they believe. I haven't seen that. The discussion here has been quite civil with occasional attempts at humour, but essentially people are merely disagreeing with each other.
Some see belief in God as being a private personal thing, others see it as being ( or had been ) pervasive in that some push the view that there are penalties for not believing. Modern Christianity doesn't promote that view hardly at all, but some hundred years ago or so, it was different.
Whether it is a valid part of Christianity, is also discussed .

All seems well contributed to in this thread


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## Robster59 (Jan 19, 2022)

What was an interesting read about people's personal moral compass has gone into a debate on God. I don't care what people views are, but if you want a discussion on religion, can we have it in a separate thread instead of hijacking this one?  Please!?


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## Leftitshort (Jan 19, 2022)

bobmac said:



			It's not always that simple

View attachment 40702

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You can’t use extreme examples to make a point. Hogie doesn’t defend that, so why ask him to? 
Not all Christians are the same. My mum & dad just go for the cake!


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 19, 2022)

Cake.
Now that is a much more interesting thing to talk about than religions.
Last series of Bake-Off was great.
I watched every episode religiously.


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## bobmac (Jan 19, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			You can’t use extreme examples to make a point. Hogie doesn’t defend that, so why ask him to?
		
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I didn't


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## Robster59 (Jan 19, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			Cake.
Now that is a much more interesting thing to talk about than religions.
Last series of Bake-Off was great.
I watched every episode religiously.
		
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Ah, but is that an indication of your moral compass?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 19, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Ah, but is that an indication of your moral compass?
		
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If anyone thinks that cake is bad then their compass is clearly well off .

Back to the original question. Be nice to people, be decent in your decisions. It is not overly complicated.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 19, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Ah, but is that an indication of your moral compass?
		
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Guess it depends on whether you eat your cake or keep it for others 😉


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 19, 2022)




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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2022)

bobmac said:



			It's not always that simple

View attachment 40702

Click to expand...

There are 'extremists' in all 'faiths' and one of their tactics is indoctrination of the young. That's a tactic that springs to my mind when I see the above pic. Though, of course, it might not be what has happened and it's only my own prejudice that made me think that. As for the argument in the message... that's easily counterable.


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## Beezerk (Jan 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Back to the original question. Be nice to people, be decent in your decisions. It is not overly complicated.
		
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Or as Ted Lasso said… don’t be judgemental, be curious.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 19, 2022)

I always find discussions on morality fascinating. As it's always viewed from the speaker (or writer's point of view). But when we say morals, by who's standards do we judge and set the bar? When we say right and wrong, who defines what is right and what is wrong? Our laws? Is our morality superior to other people's or nations or races?

Morality and right/wrong are not universally (or at least globally) equal and I find it interesting when these concepts (especially of right/wrong, which these days seems to be view of left or right - where has the concept of balanced views gone? - that's a debate for another day) come to the fore and invariably they end up in arguments about the very fundamentals of what is and what isn't right.

We also can't really look to society to guide us, lest we forget that society couldn't even agree on what colour a dress was!

Personally, I just try not to be an idiot. Do I always succeed? No, but I recognise when I have been and try not to do it again. Do I always succeed at _that_? No, but I recognise.... and around we go.


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## Rooter (Jan 19, 2022)

Lets assume there are zero implications and no-one would EVER find out.

You find a quid on floor do you keep it or drop it in a charity tin for example?

What about a crisp 20 pound note blowing in the leaves?

An envelope with 500 quid in, how are you feeling now?

OK, 5 grand in an envelope, how are your morals now?


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## BiMGuy (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Lets assume there are zero implications and no-one would EVER find out.

You find a quid on floor do you keep it or drop it in a charity tin for example?

What about a crisp 20 pound note blowing in the leaves?

An envelope with 500 quid in, how are you feeling now?

OK, 5 grand in an envelope, how are your morals now?
		
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Watch No Country for Old Men before making a decision!


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## stefanovic (Jan 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I do enjoy listening to Richard Dawkins. Sam Harris is another good one.
		
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Steven Pinker another.
“The scriptures present a God who delights in genocide, rape, slavery, and the execution of nonconformists, and for millennia those writings were used to rationalize the massacre of infidels, the ownership of women, the beating of children, dominion over animals, and the persecution of heretics and homosexuals. Humanitarian reforms such as the elimination of cruel punishment, the dissemination of empathy-inducing novels, and the abolition of slavery were met with fierce opposition in their time by ecclesiastical authorities and their apologists. The elevation of parochial values to the realm of the sacred is a license to dismiss other people’s interests, and an imperative to reject the possibility of compromise.”
― Steven Pinker, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined

You could go on forever about how much damage has been done by religious texts which have held up progress and social reform, but I'm just going to highlight the 10 Commandments and its directive 'thou shalt not covet'. Supposing this had been replaced by 'thou shalt not take slaves'. Enough said.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Lets assume there are zero implications and no-one would EVER find out.

You find a quid on floor do you keep it or drop it in a charity tin for example?

What about a crisp 20 pound note blowing in the leaves?

An envelope with 500 quid in, how are you feeling now?

OK, 5 grand in an envelope, how are your morals now?
		
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The quid would end up in my pocket.

I found a €20 note blowing in the wind about a month ago. I asked around the club, and someone put their hand up for it.

The latter two would get handed in without a second thought.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Lets assume there are zero implications and no-one would EVER find out.

You find a quid on floor do you keep it or drop it in a charity tin for example?

What about a crisp 20 pound note blowing in the leaves?

An envelope with 500 quid in, how are you feeling now?

OK, 5 grand in an envelope, how are your morals now?
		
Click to expand...

I had a somewhat similar scenario in December. I don't often visit bank branches as I do all on-line but needed to deposit some cash in my lad's account. When I left the branch and turned to walk along the street there was a "deposit envelope" lying on the ground which was clearly not empty and had been filled in as having £1500 in it. 

Not even a consideration in my mind, took it straight in to the front desk and handed it in. That could have been some old dear's savings (or even my Dad's) that they've dropped.


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## Rooter (Jan 19, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I had a somewhat similar scenario in December. I don't often visit bank branches as I do all on-line but needed to deposit some cash in my lad's account. When I left the branch and turned to walk along the street there was a "deposit envelope" lying on the ground which was clearly not empty and had been filled in as having £1500 in it.

Not even a consideration in my mind, took it straight in to the front desk and handed it in. That could have been some old dear's savings (or even my Dad's) that they've dropped.
		
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It's the things you do when no one is watching that define you.


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## bobmac (Jan 19, 2022)

I met a lady outside Tesco who was in a terrible state, floods of tears. Apparently she had just lost her life savings.
I felt sorry for her so gave her £50.
I wouldn't normally do this but I'd just found £20k in the car park and was feeling flush


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## GreiginFife (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			It's the things you do when no one is watching that define you.
		
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Just as long as that doesn't include on Zoom calls when my camera is off.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Lets assume there are zero implications and no-one would EVER find out.

You find a quid on floor do you keep it or drop it in a charity tin for example?

What about a crisp 20 pound note blowing in the leaves?

An envelope with 500 quid in, how are you feeling now?

OK, 5 grand in an envelope, how are your morals now?
		
Click to expand...


Depends....Last year i found a big fat wallet in the local co-op, it had a wad of £50s in it that would choke a donkey. Couldn't find a contact number in it, so just handed in to Customer services. Also last year playing a round on my own, hooked a tee shot into the woods on my left, reloaded and fired the next one down the fairway, walking up the fairway I was in two minds weather to have a look for the 1st ball, had a look behind me and the course was quiet so i thought I would have a little look, found the ball about 12ft into the trees laying next to a crisp £20 note! Trousered it.


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## Ser Shankalot (Jan 19, 2022)

It's a fascinating topic. Philosophers (not just golfers) have been debating the source of morals for thousands of years.

I personally believe (again just my belief) that it's inherent in our DNA, like natural selection and evolution. Sort of both individuals and human societies and cultures win which have the right balance of morality, ambition and adaptability - the latter 2 important for progress and resilience but the first is important to ensure we don't destroy ourselves in the process. Maybe it's a law of the universe, like other aspects of evolution. And we (individuals or society) can choose to filter morality through a prism of philosophy, rationality, science, politics, religion, spirituality or whatever, then the test is simply does that particular prism work to help maintain balance and advance that particular society. Those prisms that don't work will either be replaced or self-destruct, or the society that follows that bad prism will lose out to a "better and more balanced" competitor in the future. 

But I think trying to individualize it and debate whether one specific person's source of morality at any given point in time is better than another's is pointless.

Saying all that, it would be pretty funny if there were Pearly Gates but instead of St Peter we were met by Thor and his hammer.


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## Robster59 (Jan 19, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Just as long as that doesn't include on Zoom calls when my camera is off. 

Click to expand...

Or you think your camera is off. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54611557


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Lets assume there are zero implications and no-one would EVER find out.

You find a quid on floor do you keep it or drop it in a charity tin for example?

What about a crisp 20 pound note blowing in the leaves?

An envelope with 500 quid in, how are you feeling now?

OK, 5 grand in an envelope, how are your morals now?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, good dilemma.....
You would be surprised what the law of theft by finding says about your scenario.
What does disappoint me is what I understand the position of the Police is about this  nowadays.  (Maybe Billyboots can clarify)
As I understand it now, the police do not take in found property; nor do they record lost property.
They used to do that, but not now. I believe finders of property are invited to trace the owners themselves😳

So, to my mind, the latter two scenarios would have been handed in to the Police, but if that is not now possible, to whom would you hand it in.
I suggest no one.( unless found in certain circumstances, e,g, in entrance to bank;in hotel  corridor etc)
But, outside in a street say?
Keep it and record that fact and tell people who might assist (in order to find the owner )some information, but ensure that vital facts are kept to yourself that the rightful owner would know.  E.g tell nearby shops something valuable has been found in case anyone enquires.Any subsequent claimant should know exactly what.
And they say the Police force has modernised for the better!


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## Robster59 (Jan 19, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, good dilemma.....
You would be surprised what the law of theft by finding says about your scenario.
What does disappoint me is what I understand the position of the Police is about this  nowadays.  (Maybe Billyboots can clarify)
As I understand it now, the police do not take in found property; nor do they record lost property.
They used to do that, but not now. I believe finders of property are invited to trace the owners themselves😳

So, to my mind, the latter two scenarios would have been handed in to the Police, but if that is not now possible, to whom would you hand it in.
I suggest no one.( unless found in certain circumstances, e,g, in entrance to bank;in hotel  corridor etc)
But, outside in a street say?
Keep it and record that fact and tell people who might assist (in order to find the owner )some information, but ensure that vital facts are kept to yourself that the rightful owner would know.  E.g tell nearby shops something valuable has been found in case anyone enquires.Any subsequent claimant should know exactly what.
And they say the Police force has modernised for the better!
		
Click to expand...

It seems to be a thing now to post finds such as this on Social Media, albeit with minimal information, although I would imagine you would be inundated with people claiming it is theirs, so you have to leave off any unique identifying information.  

When I first started working, we were paid in cash every week.  I was walking down the yard at our factory when I spotted a wage packet on the floor.  It was a full weeks wages they'd just received.  I looked to see if there was a wage slip inside with a name on, but it wasn't there.  I handed it in to the office, and, as it turns out, it belonged to a bloke I knew very well.  It would have been easy to walk off with someone's wages, but not something that I would do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 19, 2022)

Lad at the till in the shop/pub gives you too much change / the restaurant misses something from your bill.  Do you give the change back / point out what's missed from the bill?  Always.  I don't want to carry around any feelings of guilt, no matter how small or apparently insignificant, and so I avoid picking any up.  And if I do find myself having any feelings of guilt I try and deal with them as soon as possible.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Lad at the till in the shop/pub gives you too much change / the restaurant misses something from your bill.  Do you give the change back / point out what's missed from the bill?  Always.  I don't want to carry around any feelings of guilt, no matter how small or apparently insignificant, and so I avoid picking any up.  And if I do find myself having any feelings of guilt I try and deal with them as soon as possible.
		
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I always correct someone if they give me too much change. Some business owners charge the employees for shortfalls.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Lets assume there are zero implications and no-one would EVER find out.

You find a quid on floor do you keep it or drop it in a charity tin for example?

What about a crisp 20 pound note blowing in the leaves?

An envelope with 500 quid in, how are you feeling now?

*OK, 5 grand in an envelope, how are your morals now*?
		
Click to expand...

A guy I knew who was low on the moral scale ( no longer With us ) once bought an house. Whilst doing it up he found a serious amount of money. The house was formerly used To distribute drugs. He spent said money. A Couple of months later. Some unsavoury characters came knocking on his door wanting a “ package”. Unfortunately he was to thick to convince said unsavoury characters that other folk had taken the money. His life was hell for a year or so.
The guy I knew, at his funeral his son who gave his started by saying “ I know some of you are here to make sure he has died”.😳


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			You never were personally responsible for it and anyone suggesting that is what wanted banning, not the subject matter.
		
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If memory serves me right, he was wrongfully given a hard time ☹️👍


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## SaintHacker (Jan 19, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Depends....Last year i found a big fat wallet in the local co-op, it had a wad of £50s in it that would choke a donkey. Couldn't find a contact number in it, so just handed in to Customer services. Also last year playing a round on my own, hooked a tee shot into the woods on my left, reloaded and fired the next one down the fairway, walking up the fairway I was in two minds weather to have a look for the 1st ball, had a look behind me and the course was quiet so i thought I would have a little look, found the ball about 12ft into the trees laying next to a crisp £20 note! Trousered it.  

Click to expand...

Absolutely disgraceful behaviour! 

You know full well you should have played it and not put it in your pocket!


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## Voyager EMH (Jan 20, 2022)

On the seventh day of the thread they all gave it a rest.


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