# Children of America



## bobmac (Feb 19, 2018)

I think they may have found their spokesperson

[video]https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/florida-student-emma-gonzalez-speech/index.html[/video]


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## Robster59 (Feb 19, 2018)

Powerful stuff.  It's a pity not a thing will be done. 
I had a look at the video on YouTube and the results are just as I expected, sadly. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cK9ie9SFjk
People will still bury their heads in the sand and pretend the issue is not the availability of guns.  
I despair for them as they can't see that they are the only country in the world where this happens. 
Interesting stats on this page
CNN Americas Gun Culture


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## Hobbit (Feb 19, 2018)

She makes a very simple point. People say the shooter was mentally disturbed, but if the mentally disturbed didn't have access to guns these incidents wouldn't happen.


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## Robster59 (Feb 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			She makes a very simple point. People say the shooter was mentally disturbed, but if the mentally disturbed didn't have access to guns these incidents wouldn't happen.
		
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That kind of logical argument will never work.  In fact if logical arguments worked there wouldn't be a need for this debate.  I take you back to the Jim Jeffires gun routine on another thread.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2018)

It was all the FBI's fault...current debate and analysis of the shooting over in Trump's head

Nothing will change unless the GOP get a hammering in the midterms later this year (looking less likely than just a month or two ago)

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/201...epublicans-take-lead-on-a-generic-ballot.html

And even then only if Trump sees any personal advantage in changing anything


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2018)

Putting aside my cynicism over whether Trump will do anything at all - listening to the students leading the_ 'change the gun laws'_ campaign - planning a major march in Washington next month - what an articulate and passionate group of young people - a real challenge to the juvenile narcissism of the PotUS and the subservience of his acolytes.


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2018)

Mass walkouts and demonstrations in Florida now by students and teachers.
This could be Trumps chance to go down in history.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Mass walkouts and demonstrations in Florida now by students and teachers.
This could be Trumps chance to go down in history.
		
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He's already going down ... in history

One of my fave US TV political hosts/commentators - Rachel Maddow on MSNBC - talks of how they have come to dealing with Trump as if they were watching a silent movie.  They ignore the words and watch the actions.

So for example she cites his declaration that he wants 'bump stocks' for semi-automatic weapons banned as all fine and good - but Obama tried this in April 2013 and got stuck as such a ban was not within his remit - it has to go as a bill to Congress.  And of course it got nowhere.  So if Trump is serious about getting 'bump stocks' banned, he has to get a bill into Congress and get his own party to vote it into legislation.  And at the moment there is not a lot of sign of such a bill being proposed.

And Trump's real 'big idea'?  To have 20% of teachers carrying concealed handguns.  At MArjory Stoneman Douglas High School this would have had 28 teachers running around looking for the 'shooter' - most probably scared witless and being expected to 'down' a shooter without harming any of their armed colleagues or any students or teachers.  Besides - 20% of teachers?  That's 700,000 armed teachers...

Then when you have the US right wing press describing the kids as 'paid actors' - a rent-a-crowd - and listen to the words today from the Chair of the NRA...

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/wayne-lapierre-cpac-speech-nra/index.html


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's already going down ... in history

One of my fave US TV political hosts/commentators - Rachel Maddow on MSNBC - talks of how they have come to dealing with Trump as if they were watching a silent movie.  They ignore the words and watch the actions.

So for example she cites his declaration that he wants 'bump stocks' for semi-automatic weapons banned as all fine and good - but Obama tried this in April 2013 and got stuck as such a ban was not within his remit - it has to go as a bill to Congress.  And of course it got nowhere.  So if Trump is serious about getting 'bump stocks' banned, he has to get a bill into Congress and get his own party to vote it into legislation.  And at the moment there is not a lot of sign of such a bill being proposed.

And Trump's real 'big idea'?  To have 20% of teachers carrying concealed handguns.  At MArjory Stoneman Douglas High School this would have had 28 teachers running around looking for the 'shooter' - most probably scared witless and being expected to 'down' a shooter without harming any of their armed colleagues or any students or teachers.  Besides - 20% of teachers?  That's 700,000 armed teachers...

Then when you have the US right wing press describing the kids as 'paid actors' - a rent-a-crowd - and listen to the words today from the Chair of the NRA...

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/wayne-lapierre-cpac-speech-nra/index.html

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I know.
But I've got a feeling this will be different.
We'll know how big this is on March 24th and I hope it will be start of a change.

As for the NRA.....even some of their members are unhappy with the stance being taken by Dana Loesch and Lapierre


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## pogle (Feb 22, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I know.
But I've got a feeling this will be different.
We'll know how big this is on March 24th and I hope it will be start of a change.

As for the NRA.....even some of their members are unhappy with the stance being taken by Dana Loesch and Lapierre
		
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Six years ago, 20 6 and 7 year-old were killed at Sandy Hook. Many of the gun nuts in US think that event didn't actually happen and are convinced it was a conspiracy to limit access to weapons. If that incident couldn't change people's minds over this issue, then I have very little hope that this one will.

I admire your optimism though. I've just given up hope.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2018)

But these are 16/17 year olds who are articulate and who have a voice.
And soon they will have a vote.
Trump should be advised not to ignore them as their numbers and support are growing.

If they don't try, what's the alternative ?


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## Wilson (Feb 22, 2018)

It would appear that people have been exploiting this tragedy, by asking that the weapons that cause it are banned, how dare they! I have no belief that any meaningful change will be driven by the Politicians, certainly not in their current state, the NRA have too much power. The only way this will change, is if the people drive it, both by action on the streets, and by electing Politicians who can drive the changes through.

As for Trumpâ€™s comments earlier, Iâ€™m not sure how he thinks Wild West shoot-outs, in schools, are a good thing.


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## MadAdey (Feb 23, 2018)

Nothing is going to happen, plain and simple. Why you may ask, the answer is simple........ people are more concerned with keeping their guns rather than stopping this happening again. All I hear is people going on about why they should keep their guns and a stupid amount of meems on their facebook pages trying to support this. None of them appear to give 2 ***** about what happened as long as they can keep their guns.

In the last 12 months there has been 4 big shooting incidents, the Florida nightclub shooting killing nearly 50 people, Las Vegas that killed over 50 people, over 20 people killed in a church shooting and now a school shooting killing 17 people. People are starting to listen, they are realizing that you are not safe anywhere. When your kids are not safe at school or you can't go to church on a Sunday morning there really is something wrong.


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## Slab (Feb 23, 2018)

If you really did go through with the lunacy of arming a bunch of teachers at every school and there was an incident that would cause them to use them...

Police turn up to a firefight... how do they know who the bad guys are?


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## bobmac (Feb 23, 2018)

I don't think the kids are asking everyone to give up their guns, they are asking for better background checks to stop people with mental health problems from getting semi automatic rifles and to raise the age limit for buying guns to 21


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## MadAdey (Feb 23, 2018)

Slab said:



			If you really did go through with the lunacy of arming a bunch of teachers at every school and there was an incident that would cause them to use them...

Police turn up to a firefight... how do they know who the bad guys are?
		
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That is the exact argument that is being used and rightly so. Look at it this way, the US education system is very under funded, to the point that teachers have to buy their own stationary as the school canâ€™t afford to supply them.

So who is going to buy all these guns for the teachers. Pay for all the ammunition to go to a gun range to practice, pay for the range time, pay for body armour, pay for lock boxes to keep the gun in. Pay them to attend gun training, pay the fuel for them going to and from gun ranges and gun training classes.


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## MadAdey (Feb 23, 2018)

One of the big problems is that it is too easy to get hold of an assault rifle. I could go and purchase one in a private sale from the internet right now and within 15 mins be shooting somewhere up. You do not need any type of license or background check in a private sale. 

Even if I was on my way to do it and the police stopped me for whatever reason and saw the rifle, they still couldnâ€™t do anything as Iâ€™m not breaking any laws.


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## bobmac (Feb 23, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			One of the big problems is that it is too easy to get hold of an assault rifle.
		
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That's what the kids are trying to get changed.


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## Slab (Feb 23, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			That is the exact argument that is being used and rightly so. Look at it this way, the US education system is very under funded, to the point that teachers have to buy their own stationary as the school canâ€™t afford to supply them.

So who is going to buy all these guns for the teachers. Pay for all the ammunition to go to a gun range to practice, pay for the range time, pay for body armour, pay for lock boxes to keep the gun in. Pay them to attend gun training, pay the fuel for them going to and from gun ranges and gun training classes.
		
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And the possibility its a gun carrying teacher who goes off his head on the next rampage through a school


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 23, 2018)

Slab said:



			And the possibility its a gun carrying teacher who goes off his head on the next rampage through a school
		
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To counter that they should arm all of the pupils.

(I'm getting the hang on the NRA logic now)


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## MadAdey (Feb 23, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To counter that they should arm all of the pupils.

(I'm getting the hang on the NRA logic now)
		
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You get it then, the answer to everything is more guns. People think that even if you ban them then people will still get one if they want, so whatâ€™s the point in gun control.

Be honest people, who in the UK honestly thinks that if they wanted a military grade weapon they could get one easily, if at all. 

 I knew some dodgy people who could probably get hold of most things, but getting a military grade weapon, I think that was a bit of a reach.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 23, 2018)

pogle said:



			Six years ago, 20 6 and 7 year-old were killed at Sandy Hook. Many of the gun nuts in US think that event didn't actually happen and are convinced it was a conspiracy to limit access to weapons. If that incident couldn't change people's minds over this issue, then I have very little hope that this one will.

I admire your optimism though. I've just given up hope.
		
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And of course the Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists would then have to have you knowing that Nicole Hockley - the mother of a 6 yr old murdered at Sandy Hook who spoke at the 'listening session' with Trump on Wednesday - was an actor.  She wasn't a real mother of a victim of Sandy Hook - because Sandy Hook didn't happen.

https://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Sandy-Hook-mom-to-Trump-at-White-House-meeting-12631407.php

And we learn today that an armed policeman was present at the school but failed to intervene - and has now resigned from the force.  So much for an armed presence being a deterrent.


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## bobmac (Feb 23, 2018)

Seven children and teens are killed with guns in the US on an average day.

If you don't change anything, nothing will change.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 23, 2018)

The end game here will be that teachers are recruited on their ability to handle a glock.  So you will get a generation of American school kids who are normalised to teachers being proficient at shooting someone, but may be not so great at algebra.  Best of luck with that US. 

There seems to be a narrative that all Americans have guns and are happy using them so most teachers will be happy to carry concealed guns, when that is simply not true.  There are many people I know from our offices in the US who do not have one or want one.  And those that do use them at firing ranges and say there is no way they'd want to carry one at all times.  Yes in parts of the US I expect more people are packing heat, but in other parts it is much less prevalent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 23, 2018)

And so in a televised WH staff briefing yesterday Trump - who 1yr in some wish to be _given a chance_ - expanded...

20, 30 maybe 40% of teachers carrying handguns concealed he reckons - and as many will be ex-military (really?) that'll deter shooters - and these teachers will get a bonus for being armed.  And Trump tells us to consider the 67yr old ex-marine at the table - now were he teaching at that school he'd have stopped the carnage.  Is Trump in his fantasy land thinking of Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino, when he of course refers to Gen john Kelly.  

As Maddow advises, consider not Trump's words - look at his actions.  40% of teachers armed? - that's 1.4m armed teachers.  Say $1000 bonus for carrying?  Let's just say $1bn/yr for that bonus.  And who is paying for that - existing budget?  Well look at Trump's *actions *in the budget - where we find that the budget for school security has been CUT.

And Kelly remained silent when he should have interjected with a _'might not be that straightforward Mr President'_

But of course Kelly is currently in a nose-to-nose with Jared Kushner over Kushner's security clearance.  And if things remain as they currently are, then at the end of TODAY - Kelly will be having Kushner excluded from security briefings as Kushner's temporary security clearance will rescinded under a general directive from Kelly rescinding temp security clearance.

What a mess.  Don't know what is worse - that Trump believes what he is saying and is living in a fantasy land - or that he is just making stuff up as he goes along and has no intention of changing anything

The only hope is that Senators Rubio and Scott in Florida are so pressurised and shamed by the children of America and of Florida in particular that they cannot avoid supporting change and risking their NRA funding.


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## bobmac (Feb 26, 2018)

Well it seems things may be changing.
It seems Trump supports 
Banning bump stocks
Increased background checks
Increasing the age from 18 to 21 to buy a firearm.

It may not be enough for some but it is a start.

Well done kids  :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 26, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Well it seems things may be changing.
It seems Trump supports 
Banning bump stocks
Increased background checks
Increasing the age from 18 to 21 to buy a firearm.

It may not be enough for some but it is a start.

Well done kids  :thup:
		
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What will be telling is how much the NRA rally against it.  If they do then there is chance it might make a practical difference.  If they do not then chances are it will have been authorised by the NRA and in reality bugger all will change.


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## bobmac (Feb 26, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			What will be telling is how much the NRA rally against it.  If they do then there is chance it might make a practical difference.  If they do not then chances are it will have been authorised by the NRA and in reality bugger all will change.
		
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The alternative is to sit back and do nothing until the next mass killing of children.
Thoughts and prayers don't help.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2018)

bobmac said:



			The alternative is to sit back and do nothing until the next mass killing of children.
Thoughts and prayers don't help.
		
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And some, if not all, of what you have listed as being what Trump is going to propose (or is proposing) will not be in his gift to deliver - it will have to go through Congress - and the NRA will apply the pressure on the members of congress...how many will put the wishes of the Children before the wishes of the NRA?

As it happens I believe that prayers _can_ help, as those members of Congress who _believe _will know the will of God through their understanding of the *right* thing to do is - as opposed what they want as individuals.


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## bobmac (Feb 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And some, if not all, of what you have listed as being what Trump is going to propose (or is proposing) will not be in his gift to deliver - it will have to go through Congress - and the NRA will apply the pressure on the members of congress...how many will put the wishes of the Children before the wishes of the NRA?

As it happens I believe that prayers _can_ help, as those members of Congress who _believe _will know the will of God through their understanding of the *right* thing to do is - as opposed what they want as individuals.
		
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So no point in even trying then.
Just keep your thoughts and prayers coming until the next killing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So no point in even trying then.
Just keep your thoughts and prayers coming until the next killing.
		
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You misunderstand the power of prayer...that it does not work without subsequent and consequent *action*.   (but if you're not of that mind then you won't get that - and I get that)

The appropriate action will only come about when individual members of Congress understand the difference between what they individually want to do, and what they will come to know is the *right *thing for them to do - for society - and the right thing for society may well not be at all what they themselves might want - as is the case here in respect of NRA funding and lobbying.

So of course Trump MUST try.  But he depends upon Congress...and I have little doubt if he struggles to get anything through Congress it will be the Dems fault


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## user2010 (Feb 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You misunderstand the power of prayer...that it does not work without subsequent and consequent *action*.   (but if you're not of that mind then you won't get that - and I get that)

The appropriate action will only come about when individual members of Congress understand the difference between what they individually want to do, and what they will come to know is the *right *thing for them to do - for society - and the right thing for society may well not be at all what they themselves might want - as is the case here in respect of NRA funding and lobbying.

So of course Trump MUST try.  But he depends upon Congress...and I have little doubt if he struggles to get anything through Congress it will be the Dems fault 

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The power of prayer does absolutely squat, end of.
If you pray hard enough to your imaginary friend, he/it will end mass shootings.......yeah, right.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			The power of prayer does absolutely squat, end of.
If you pray hard enough to your imaginary friend, he/it will end mass shootings.......yeah, right.

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Making comments like that without taking the time and effort to understand someones beliefs is not constructive argument. If you have an educated counter view on religion then make it by debate and reason rather than comments like "end of" or "yeah right" then people may take your comments seriously.


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## Beezerk (Feb 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Making comments like that without taking the time and effort to understand someones beliefs is not constructive argument. If you have an educated counter view on religion then make it by debate and reason rather than comments like "end of" or "yeah right" then people may take your comments seriously.
		
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Alternatively you could say that claiming god and prayers will help reduce the amount of mass shootings is also not a constructive argument. 
.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Making comments like that without taking the time and effort to understand someones beliefs is not constructive argument. If you have an educated counter view on religion then make it by debate and reason rather than comments like "end of" or "yeah right" then people may take your comments seriously.
		
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Many thanks @SR  :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Alternatively you could say that claiming god and prayers will help reduce the amount of mass shootings is also not a constructive argument. 
.
		
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Though I could constructively argue that it's a belief rather than a claim


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Alternatively you could say that claiming god and prayers will help reduce the amount of mass shootings is also not a constructive argument. 
.
		
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Again, it's a matter of explaining how someones belief is incorrect.  You can only make a counter argument by proving a belief is wrong and as we are free to hold our own interpretations it must be subjective.    To suggest God and prayers will not help to reduce mass shootings requires more than sound bites to make an effective case.


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## bobmac (Feb 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Again, it's a matter of explaining how someones belief is incorrect.  You can only make a counter argument by proving a belief is wrong and as we are free to hold our own interpretations it must be subjective.    To suggest God and prayers will not help to reduce mass shootings requires more than sound bites to make an effective case.
		
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I think there are 17 families in Florida who could make a good case.


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## user2010 (Feb 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Again, it's a matter of explaining how someones belief is incorrect.  You can only make a counter argument by proving a belief is wrong and as we are free to hold our own interpretations it must be subjective.    To suggest God and prayers will not help to reduce mass shootings requires more than sound bites to make an effective case.
		
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So what do these religious types pray for to their imaginary friend/s after an atrocity/mass shooting?


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 27, 2018)

The People of America must be sleeping very soundly in their beds , safe in the knowledge that their President would so brave and selfless as to run in to a school shooting unarmed.

Cough cough.

I hear sales of â€œSuperTrumpâ€ tee shirts are well up


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## Beezerk (Feb 27, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The People of America must be sleeping very soundly in their beds , safe in the knowledge that their President would so brave and selfless as to run in to a school shooting unarmed.

Cough cough.

I hear sales of â€œSuperTrumpâ€ tee shirts are well up
		
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That will be the same Trump who dodged the draft numerous times lol


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			So what do these religious types pray for to their imaginary friend/s after an atrocity/mass shooting?

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By _'Those religious type_s' I assume you mean those with a religious belief and faith - and if you do I can confirm that there are many, many different types.  

However since you asked - this particular 'religious type' will pray to my God (as I understand him) to provide those who have suffered loss with love, strength and guidance - this being provided through the good works, words and actions of others who come to understand and realise that it is they who can provide that support.  And the 'others' can include myself if the circumstances permit.

And at the same time I pray for others who might find themselves in the same mindset as the 'shooter' and ready to commit an atrocity - and I pray to my God to help those individuals open their mind to see that what they intend or wish to do as wrong - and so help them to not do what is *their *will, but to act in accordance with the will of God.

It's called belief and faith...acting in accordance with the will of (my) God and not in accordance with my own will.

Since you asked,


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## user2010 (Feb 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			By _'Those religious type_s' I assume you mean those with a religious belief and faith - and if you do I can confirm that there are many, many different types.  

However since you asked - this particular 'religious type' will pray to my God (as I understand him) to provide those who have suffered loss with love, strength and guidance - this being provided through the good works, words and actions of others who come to understand and realise that it is they who can provide that support.  And the 'others' can include myself if the circumstances permit.

And at the same time *I pray for others who might find themselves in the same mindset as the 'shooter' and ready to commit an atrocity - and I pray to my God to help those individuals open their mind to see that what they intend or wish to do as wrong - and so help them to not do what is their will, but to act in accordance with the will of God.*

It's called belief and faith...acting in accordance with the will of (my) God and not in accordance with my own will.

Since you asked,
		
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So I was right, the power of prayer doesn't work.
Cheers for clearing that up.:thup:


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			So what do these religious types pray for to their imaginary friend/s after an atrocity/mass shooting?

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You dont appear to understand how Christianity works, it's not meant to be something that takes away all the bad and evil things in the world, it's based on people trying to live better lives and understanding that humans have original sin and as such some will commit horrendous acts and depravities. It's not as simple as saying "your imaginary friend in the sky"  You probably wont try to understand it and that's entirely up to you but at least you could accept that billions do and are not all crackpots.   I am not a practicing Christian but at least I have made an effort to understand what it's about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



*So I was right, the power of prayer doesn't work.*
Cheers for clearing that up.:thup:
		
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Sorry - not sure how you draw that conclusion.


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## user2010 (Feb 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont appear to understand how Christianity works, it's not meant to be something that takes away all the bad and evil things in the world, it's based on people trying to live better lives and understanding that humans have original sin and as such some will commit horrendous acts and depravities. It's not as simple as saying "your imaginary friend in the sky"  You probably wont try to understand it and that's entirely up to you but at least you could accept that billions do and are not all crackpots.   I am not a practicing Christian but at least I have made an effort to understand what it's about.
		
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Billions that have been brain-washed down the centuries.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont appear to understand how Christianity works, it's not meant to be something that takes away all the bad and evil things in the world, it's based on people trying to live better lives and understanding that humans have original sin and as such some will commit horrendous acts and depravities. It's not as simple as saying "your imaginary friend in the sky"  You probably wont try to understand it and that's entirely up to you but at least you could accept that billions do and are not all crackpots.   I am not a practicing Christian but at least I have made an effort to understand what it's about.
		
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Gosh - someone understands my pigeonhole on this even though you might not be in it with me - and it is good knowing it is from you @SR given our occasional and little disagreements on other matters 

That said I struggle seriously with the views of the evangelical Christian right in the US and what appears to be manipulation of congregations by many of their pastors and ministers...a congregation that Trump seems able to call on with ease.


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## user2010 (Feb 27, 2018)

Why would you try and understand something that's based on a lie?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			Why would you try and understand something that's based on a lie?

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because it might do you some good?


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## user2010 (Feb 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			because it might do you some good? 

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To base my life around lies and fiction?
Oh dear.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			To base my life around lies and fiction?
Oh dear.

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whatever...

And so we believe what the scientists say about the universe...

The astronomers and astrophysicists point us at a part of the universe and tell as that there, there is a black hole - and point to another and tell us that over there there is the 9th planet of the Solar System.  And we ask how do they know these things because there is nothing visible; and they tell us that something is affecting other forces and heavenly bodies ) ) in the vicinity - and so there must be something there - so they call one a black hole and the other the 9th planet.  

And so black holes and a 9th planet exist as a result of the conclusions drawn by scientists that they must - because the things that they see happening are not happening by themselves and are unexplained unless...black holes and 9th planet.

We have faith in scientists and astrophysicists and so we believe them...


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 27, 2018)

can we leave peoples personal religious beliefs out of the discussion, the fact that these beliefs are held mean that they should be respected even if others disagree with them

Thank you


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## bobmac (Feb 28, 2018)

Such an optimistic, upbeat thread ruined.

Pretty sad reflection of how this forum has changed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Such an optimistic, upbeat thread ruined.

Pretty sad reflection of how this forum has changed
		
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Apologies if I upset any folks by pushing back when religious belief is simply rubbished and when those who might have a belief are disparaged - but I've said enough on that.  

Anyway - and to the point of this - I did say that - and I repeat - that Trump's words are fine but words mean nothing without action.  And that Trump in his words panders to some his core base (the evangelical Christian right wing) - at a time of national grief - that I find distasteful and difficult.

My hope is that the words and actions of the children help those politicians in the pockets of the NRA understand the *right *thing to do - and actually - for once - DO the right thing rather than that which best suits them personally - and that the right thing will hurt them in the pocket and perhaps politically also - but that they will understand that these are pains worth suffering for the long term good of US society as a whole.


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## bobmac (Feb 28, 2018)

Can someone close this thread please.
Thank you


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Can someone close this thread please.
Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Keep it open. It's a forum and people should be able to state their views and defend them as long as they do it within the accepted rules.


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## Beezerk (Feb 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Keep it open. It's a forum and people should be able to state their views and defend them as long as they do it within the accepted rules.
		
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Even if others find it offensive? Yet only one side gets shut down.


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## bobmac (Feb 28, 2018)

So much for an optimistic thread.
I'm out


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## user2010 (Feb 28, 2018)

See what happens when you bring Religion into discussions?:ears::thup:


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## Imurg (Feb 28, 2018)

So...
Shots fired in a school in Georgia.
No one hurt ( apart from an ankle injury during evacuation)
A Teacher has been taken into custody..

I can't wait for Trump's view on this one....


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 28, 2018)

Imurg said:



			So...
Shots fired in a school in Georgia.
No one hurt ( apart from an ankle injury during evacuation)
A Teacher has been taken into custody..

I can't wait for Trump's view on this one....
		
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If only all the other teachers had been armed they would've been able to stop the armed teacher. :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2018)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			See what happens when you bring Religion into discussions?:ears::thup:
		
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Exactly.  Try not to in future.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 1, 2018)

Well, here's hoping he doesn't have another change of mind...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43235969


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## user2010 (Mar 1, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Exactly.  Try not to in future.
		
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I didn't:ears:
See posts #28 and #29.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2018)

I think it is important to see how Trump has spun pandering to his support in the evangelical Christian right into his response speeches.  There should be support in that constituency for gun control measures - measures that will upset his NRA constituency.  However I suspect that there is a significant overlap between these two constituencies, and this is where knowing what is _right _comes in - especially for the reasons I have mentioned, but will not repeat, in respect of the former - as that constituency listens to what the children are saying.  Which is what this thread is about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Keep it open. It's a forum and people should be able to state their views and defend them as long as they do it within the accepted rules.
		
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I agree :thup:


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

I am a rarity among American progressive liberals in that I strongly support the Second Amendment to our Constitution which guarantees the right of private ownership of firearms.  

You Brits strongly disagree with me.  Fair enough. It's not that you don't make strong arguments.

But as I explained, the problem can't be addressed by mere statute. Whether for better or worse, it still requires striking down the 2nd Amendment.

And amending the Constitution for any reason is completely impossible in polarized America.

It would like be easier to overthrow the United states government altogether than to amend the US Constitution.

Overthrowing the US government would be the same as ending the Soviet Union...a replacement nation within the same borders would not result.

Partition would result.

And what are now the "red states" would still have private ownership of firearms. You can be certain of that.

The only way anybody is going to take away privately owned firearms in America is to invade us from outside.

When they do that, they'll find that both our military AND our civilians are well-armed, the latter perhaps better than the former where is comes to small arms.

So good luck with that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I am a rarity among American progressive liberals in that I strongly support the Second Amendment to our Constitution which guarantees the right of private ownership of firearms. 

You Brits strongly disagree with me.  Fair enough. It's not that you don't make strong arguments.

But as I explained, the problem can't be addressed by mere statute. Whether for better or worse, it still requires striking down the 2nd Amendment.

And amending the Constitution for any reason is completely impossible in polarized America.

It would like be easier to overthrow the United states government altogether than to amend the US Constitution.

Overthrowing the US government would be the same as ending the Soviet Union...a replacement nation within the same borders would not result.

Partition would result.

And what are now the "red states" would still have private ownership of firearms. You can be certain of that.

The only way anybody is going to take away privately owned firearms in America is to invade us from outside.

When they do that, they'll find that both our military AND our civilians are well-armed, the latter perhaps better than the former where is comes to small arms.

So good luck with that.
		
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https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

Yep -that “right to bear arms” must be worth it when you consider the level of school shootings within the US. Whilst it continues to be easy to own a weapon innocent children will continue to be killed.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I am a rarity among American progressive liberals in that I strongly support the Second Amendment to our Constitution which guarantees the right of private ownership of firearms. 

You Brits strongly disagree with me.  Fair enough. It's not that you don't make strong arguments.

But as I explained, the problem can't be addressed by mere statute. Whether for better or worse, it still requires striking down the 2nd Amendment.

And amending the Constitution for any reason is completely impossible in polarized America.

It would like be easier to overthrow the United states government altogether than to amend the US Constitution.

Overthrowing the US government would be the same as ending the Soviet Union...a replacement nation within the same borders would not result.

Partition would result.

And what are now the "red states" would still have private ownership of firearms. You can be certain of that.

The only way anybody is going to take away privately owned firearms in America is to invade us from outside.

When they do that, they'll find that both our military AND our civilians are well-armed, the latter perhaps better than the former where is comes to small arms.

So good luck with that.
		
Click to expand...


So because its hard its not worth doing? I thought you yanks were made of tougher stuff than that?

 30.000 Killed by guns in the US last year. Its a disgrace that you are so easy with that. (not just you personally, all the pro gun types.)


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			So because its hard its not worth doing? I thought you yanks were made of tougher stuff than that?

30.000 Killed by guns in the US last year. Its a disgrace that you are so easy with that. (not just you personally, all the pro gun types.)
		
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I hate the violence as much as anybody.   

And I differ greatly from most pro-gun types in a couple of ways.

I'm liberal in my other views.

And I favor the abolition of assault weapon private ownership which would not contradict our 2nd Amendment.

But I believe in civil liberties as well.  Private ownership of sporting and self-defense arms--not military arms--is an important civil liberty.

We won't give it up as easily as you did.


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2020)

I don't think America would accept a blanket ban. To go from A to Z without small steps is just too radical. Here's a few off the cuff thoughts. Stop the sale of assault type rifles. Limit magazine capacity. Reduce calibre and ft/lb power. Restrict the carrying of guns, e.g. no more than 2 unless you've cleared it with the local police dept. And it doesn't have to be implemented all in one go.

There's probably a good number of interim steps that won't see the 2nd amendment removed from the statutes. I'm all for a blanket ban, like in the UK, but its naïve to expect it and its America's choice.


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2020)

[QUOTE="Ye Olde Boomer, post: 2100059, member: 27266"
Private ownership of sporting and self-defense arms--not military arms--is *an important civil liberty.*
[/QUOTE]

Why?
Because it said so in 1791?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think America would accept a blanket ban. To go from A to Z without small steps is just too radical. Here's a few off the cuff thoughts. Stop the sale of assault type rifles. Limit magazine capacity. Reduce calibre and ft/lb power. Restrict the carrying of guns, e.g. no more than 2 unless you've cleared it with the local police dept. And it doesn't have to be implemented all in one go.

There's probably a good number of interim steps that won't see the 2nd amendment removed from the statutes. I'm all for a blanket ban, like in the UK, but its naïve to expect it and its America's choice.
		
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it will never change imo - the gun lobbies etc are far too powerful and the gun industry is very lucrative it’s just not going to change 

Imo they all hide underneath the “right to bear arms” but we all know it’s nonsense , they want to have guns , they want the power that comes with having a game that can kill. For a country that is supposed to the most forward thinking there is a plenty of if that is backwards beyond belief.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think America would accept a blanket ban. To go from A to Z without small steps is just too radical. Here's a few off the cuff thoughts. Stop the sale of assault type rifles. Limit magazine capacity. Reduce calibre and ft/lb power. Restrict the carrying of guns, e.g. no more than 2 unless you've cleared it with the local police dept. And it doesn't have to be implemented all in one go.

There's probably a good number of interim steps that won't see the 2nd amendment removed from the statutes. I'm all for a blanket ban, like in the UK, but its naïve to expect it and its America's choice.
		
Click to expand...

Assault weapons and large magazines___agree totally. It only makes sense.

Reduce caliber and ft / lb power?  Makes no sense, I'm afraid.  Our children are not murdered with large game hunting calibers.  You can't conceal a .375 H&H Magnum.

People own more than 2 guns but rarely if ever carry more than two--or even one.  If you hunt deer (I wouldn't do it, but it's necessary as they're over populated in America and would starve), shoot skeet and trap,  and target shoot at a club pistiol range, well, that's three firearms right there. 

But not being able to carry them all on your person makes perfect sense.  You're up to no good if you're transporting an arsenal.

Universal background checks for violent felony convictions certainly make sense as well. You didn't mention that one!

Why are you for a general ban, though?  It seems Draconian and an assault on civil liberties to me. That's what dictatorships do.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For a country that is supposed to the most forward thinking there is a plenty of if that is backwards beyond belief.
		
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I believe that private ownership of certain, appropriate kinds of firearms is an important civil liberty.  Rural Americans hunt, for one thing.

But suggesting that America is a forward thinking country is absolutely ridiculous.

The UK has a National Health Service, not America.

What was the last Western nation to abolish slavery?  That's right, America.

America is the most socially regressive nation in the developed Western World...and it's not even close.

Where did you ever get the idea that we're a forward thinking nation?


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Assault weapons and large magazines___agree totally. It only makes sense.

Reduce caliber and ft / lb power?  Makes no sense, I'm afraid.  Our children are not murdered with large game hunting calibers.  You can't conceal a .375 H&H Magnum.

People own more than 2 guns but rarely if ever carry more than two--or even one.  If you hunt deer (I wouldn't do it, but it's necessary as they're over populated in America and would starve), shoot skeet and trap,  and target shoot at a club pistiol range, well, that's three firearms right there.

But not being able to carry them all on your person makes perfect sense.  You're up to no good if you're transporting an arsenal.

Universal background checks for violent felony convictions certainly make sense as well. You didn't mention that one!

Why are you for a general ban, though?  It seems Draconian and an assault on civil liberties to me. That's what dictatorships do.
		
Click to expand...

An assault on civil liberties; is it an assault on civil liberties to have speed limits, especially in towns? Is it an assault on civil liberties to have laws about dropping litter or jaywalking? Is it an assault on civil liberties to have laws against riding the metro or the buses without paying a fair? Govts make plenty of laws that no one shouts dictatorship about, so why with this one? Don't get me wrong, I'm ambivalent about the dictatorship thing, just asking you to question it for yourself.

Blanket ban is probably too simplistic; a rifle or hand gun for hunting or target shooting, fine. But why would you need a gun living in NYC? Self-defence? The likelihood is its in a desk drawer or a wardrobe.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

I wouldn't have any knowledge about why your government thinks that it's OK to prevent you from hunting (even if it's elsewhere in the world), target shooting, or even defending yourself.
Mind you, I have tremendous respect for the United Kingdom, but people don't agree on everything.
To me, though, it is indeed a flagrant assault on your civil liberties.  Maybe it's because I've been raised in America.

People in New York City, by the way, have very serious municipal restrictions on hand gun ownership. You have to have a permit, and there's no promise of getting it.
The criminals with guns are just that-criminals--and their possession of their guns is in itself criminal...under current law.

And therein lies the problem that people don't want to discuss.

Guns are inanimate objects.  It's the people who are dangerous,

In America, where there is no universal healthcare, 
no universal access to education, 
no jobs for people displaced from their employment by new technology or the global economy,
where racism, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia, religious fervor, and all the other human shortcomings are so widespread

that a despicable cretin like Donald Trump can be elected president,

people are going to be scared, angry, and violent.

That--and not our gun laws--is the reason for our widespread violence.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 4, 2020)

And everyone wonders why Americans are seen the way they are....


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



*And everyone wonders* why Americans are seen the way they are....
		
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I was under the impression that nobody with any cosmopolitan sophistication at all had any doubt why Americans are seen the way they are.

The only caveat is that Americans are not identical. America is not a monolith.  The ideological differences between us are *HUGE* and presently causing great consternation.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I was under the impression that nobody with any cosmopolitan sophistication at all had any doubt why Americans are seen the way they are.

The only caveat is that Americans are not identical. America is not a monolith.  The ideological differences between us are *HUGE* and presently causing great consternation.
		
Click to expand...

And yet you espouse the carrying of firearms, in the 21st Century.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And yet you espouse the carrying of firearms, in the 21st Century.
		
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I don't espouse the carrying of firearms in the 21st Century,
I oppose the abolition of private firearms ownership in the 21st Century,
Let's not overlook nuance.
By the way, I don't keep a pistol in my golf bag.
Al Capone did.
As I said, we're all different.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't espouse the carrying of firearms in the 21st Century,
I oppose the abolition of private firearms ownership in the 21st Century,
Let's not overlook nuance.
By the way, I don't keep a pistol in my golf bag.
Al Capone did.
As I said, we're all different.
		
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Why does a person own 8 different guns ?! 

If the “right to bear arms” is about protecting yourself why have 8 ? 

Even more so when that person who has 8 guns doesn’t shoot ?!



Ye Olde Boomer said:



*I don't shoot at all.*  I love animals and can force myself to tolerate people, especially if they play golf.
I just believe in the right to bear arms.
		
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So you have 8 items that can kill people just because you believe in the right to bear arms - and that’s why there is the level of gun crime in the US


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I wouldn't have any knowledge about why your government thinks that it's OK to prevent you from hunting (even if it's elsewhere in the world), target shooting, or even defending yourself.
Mind you, I have tremendous respect for the United Kingdom, but people don't agree on everything.
To me, though, it is indeed a flagrant assault on your civil liberties.  Maybe it's because I've been raised in America.

People in New York City, by the way, have very serious municipal restrictions on hand gun ownership. You have to have a permit, and there's no promise of getting it.
The criminals with guns are just that-criminals--and their possession of their guns is in itself criminal...under current law.

And therein lies the problem that people don't want to discuss.

Guns are inanimate objects.  It's the people who are dangerous,

In America, where there is no universal healthcare,
no universal access to education,
no jobs for people displaced from their employment by new technology or the global economy,
where racism, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia, religious fervor, and all the other human shortcomings are so widespread

that a despicable cretin like Donald Trump can be elected president,

people are going to be scared, angry, and violent.

That--and not our gun laws--is the reason for our widespread violence.
		
Click to expand...

The UK govt doesn't prevent us from hunting, either in the UK or abroad. I've hunted several times in the UK, and an ex-work colleague(I'm retired) has hunted around the world. For me, it was with shotguns. For my friend it was shot guns, rifles(both smooth bore, black powder and rifled). He still shots pretty much every weekend.

I don't feel that the greater restrictions than you experience is an assault on my civil liberties. I just see it as a law protecting me from excessive gun ownership. Simple maths, less guns = less danger.

Edit; by the way I only shot what I could put on the kitchen table. Killing animals for fun just isn't right. If it wasn't going to be eaten, it wasn't shot and if it wasn't a clear/clean shot it wasn't shot.


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## chrisd (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't espouse the carrying of firearms in the 21st Century,
I oppose the abolition of private firearms ownership in the 21st Century,
Let's not overlook nuance.
By the way, I don't keep a pistol in my golf bag.
Al Capone did.
As I said, we're all different.
		
Click to expand...

I dare say with the handicap of being one of America's most wanted he'd carry a gun as he'd want a shot at each hole


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 4, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't espouse the carrying of firearms in the 21st Century,
I oppose the abolition of private firearms ownership in the 21st Century,
Let's not overlook nuance.
By the way, I don't keep a pistol in my golf bag.
Al Capone did.
As I said, we're all different.
		
Click to expand...

Ahhhh I misunderstood... I thought America had become a forgiving and kind country, concerned about others and accepting of an apology, claiming the death caused was a "terrible accident"..... Well thats the impression I get from your drivers over here......


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why does a person own 8 different guns ?!

If the “right to bear arms” is about protecting yourself why have 8 ?

Even more so when that person who has 8 guns doesn’t shoot ?!



So you have 8 items that can kill people just because you believe in the right to bear arms - and that’s why there is the level of gun crime in the US
		
Click to expand...

All eight are for different kinds of shooting sports except for the Walther PPK which is a small, self-defense weapon. I don't own a military style assault weapon and don't believe that that kind of weapon should be privately owned.  We did ban them, but then a more conservative government repealed that ban.

I enjoyed them whan I was younger.  Now they're just part of my estate when I die.  The kids will do with them what they wish, but since they're worth thousands of dollars, I'm sure they'll sell them in a safe and lawful way.  My daughter's a cop with her own gun (even though she has a desk job)  and no interest in shooting sports.  My son got his fill of firearms while he was in the army.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Edit; by the way I only shot what I could put on the kitchen table. Killing animals for fun just isn't right. If it wasn't going to be eaten, it wasn't shot and if it wasn't a clear/clean shot it wasn't shot.
		
Click to expand...

Not being a vegitarian, I have no criticism of people who eat what they hunt, even though I don't like doing my own "wet work."  I could never be a livestock rancher.  Every steer would have a name and become a pet.  As badly as I get on with other humans, that's how much I love animals.

Trophy hunters like Trump's two moron adult sons make me sick, though.  That's mere bloodlust, and I keep hoping for a misfire that results in they themselves becoming a meal.


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