# Will Scorecards For Comps Soon Be Redundant?



## brfcfan (Aug 11, 2019)

I am the comp sec at our club and after each comp I count the returned cards see if they are signed etc etc.

I think that this could be done electronically, with electronic signatures, saving the need for players to input their score on the main terminal and comp secs the time in counting cards and time in finding out who hasn't returned a card.

Would this method be allowed under the current CONGU rules, and if so has any clubs used this method or thinking about it?


----------



## CliveW (Aug 12, 2019)

How would you mark your partner's card on the course and countersign it afterwards? What about knowing stroke indexes, local rules and SSS etc which are all on your card?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 12, 2019)

In answer to the question, no.


----------



## Doh (Aug 12, 2019)

Players would have to carry some sort of electronic device to record scores on? Much more to go wrong IMHO.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

It's my understanding that next season our scores are to be returned via a phone app which allows you to sign, whether the cards will still be present or not I don't know but this is unquestionably the future, I suspect the scorecard will still be available for those who don't have such a device to take app i.e. old coffin dodgers.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Doh said:



			Players would have to carry some sort of electronic device to record scores on? Much more to go wrong IMHO.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty much everyone nowadays has a smart phone, not entirely sure what could go wrong that you refer to.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

CliveW said:



			How would you mark your partner's card on the course and countersign it afterwards? What about knowing stroke indexes, local rules and SSS etc which are all on your card?
		
Click to expand...

Well SI etc can all be on an electronic card which isnâ€™t the reason why it wonâ€™t happen 

Counter signing can be overcome 

But you need every single person to have the device or phone on the course with you 

You need to be in an area that has good enough signal 

Battery life 

It could easily crash etc etc 

Itâ€™s not going to be done for a very long time


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

CliveW said:



			How would you mark your partner's card on the course and countersign it afterwards? What about knowing stroke indexes, local rules and SSS etc which are all on your card?
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm...are you being serious with that post ?


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s not going to be done for a very long time
		
Click to expand...

That is not my understanding.


----------



## Capella (Aug 12, 2019)

Why? What's wrong with paper and pencil? I'm not a Luddite. I work as a software developer and I'm quite tech savvy, but why does everything need to be done with a complex electronic solution nowadays? What's to be gained from an electronic scorecard? Is it easier? Quicker? More failsafe? I seriously doubt it. Maybe it would save the person who has to enter the scores after the round a little bit of time, but during the round it would cause quite a bit of extra hassle. Not to mention the costs. The devices would need to be very sturdy and designed in a way that every idiot can use them.


----------



## SammmeBee (Aug 12, 2019)

very expensive for clubs to provide


robinthehood said:



			You'd use your phone.....
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t use my phone on the course......


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But you need every single person to have the device or phone on the course with you
		
Click to expand...

Why every single person ?



Liverpoolphil said:



			Battery life
		
Click to expand...

Huh ? Mobile phones last a whole day.



Liverpoolphil said:



			It could easily crash etc etc
		
Click to expand...

Indeed but how often does your phone crash in a 4 hour period ?


I believe this app will be more for score returning rather than live scoring but that can also be done is required.


----------



## Golfman15 (Aug 12, 2019)

Electronic systems do and will fail with both technical and operator errors. This does look like another non problem looking for a solution.


----------



## Grant85 (Aug 12, 2019)

I can't see a major issue with it. It would be very simple technology via a smartphone app. Also potential for a 'live leaderboard' when you are on the course.

No doubt you'd need to have a number of 'devices' for people without a phone or who don't want to use their phone.

However, as a bare minimum you should be able to enter your score via an app, rather than on the terminal and still put your scorecard in as usual.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf they are all very minor technicalities which are easily overcome.
		
Click to expand...

They arenâ€™t though are they , there are plenty of people without smart phones , I know people I play golf with donâ€™t even have a mobile phone and wonâ€™t get one let alone a smart phone with the capability 

Some need to remember the average age of people that play golf and realise that for a good number they arenâ€™t technologically savvy - I see enough people struggle with a PSi

And thatâ€™s not without even looking at cost implications 

A bit of paper and pencil works just fine for every single golfer who plays 


HappyHacker1 said:



			Why every single person ?



Huh ? Mobile phones last a whole day.



Indeed but how often does your phone crash in a 4 hour period ?


I believe this app will be more for score returning rather than live scoring but that can also be done is required.
		
Click to expand...

You donâ€™t have two different systems running side by side - someone suggested it to make life easier to close the Comp and check cards etc - by having a mix just makes it awkward 
And I have been and played plenty of courses where signal is poor


----------



## Imurg (Aug 12, 2019)

You also have the issue of people using phones for inputting scores and, just as someone is teeing off, a call comes in and distracts..
Easy solution..put it in Airplane mode.
Yeah right..everyone is going to remember to do that.
Plus clubs would have to amend their etiquette rules and we know how difficult that is....


----------



## Grant85 (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You need to be in an area that has good enough signal
		
Click to expand...

You wouldn't need this. As long as you had signal or wifi at the club an app could still work offline and upload the info when it was in range. Granted this would take away the live scoring feature. 

But from an environmental point of view, it would save an awful lot of bits of card getting printed. Just think a few hundred every saturday / sunday at every club in the land a good few dozen per day through the week. Probably well over 1 million cards a week getting printed / used / binned in the UK alone.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You donâ€™t have two different systems running side by side - someone suggested it to make life easier to close the Comp and check cards etc - by having a mix just makes it awkward
And I have been and played plenty of courses where signal is poor
		
Click to expand...

Agree having two systems side by side but I suspect someone will still have to manually check cards that are returned, no one is disputing signals aren't always the best but you raised a point about battery life.


----------



## ger147 (Aug 12, 2019)

I don't see any technical issues preventing its implementation but I also don't see any benefits, except environmental perhaps i.e. less trees giving up their lives to become scorecards.

As someone who helps with the cards at my golf club, many golfers have enough trouble filling in a scorecard with a pencil and inputting that into a PSI terminal, I don't see using a phone app being any better, could potentially cause more issues instead of trying to solve ones that don't exist in my opinion.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Imurg said:



			You also have the issue of people using phones for inputting scores and, just as someone is teeing off, a call comes in and distracts..
Easy solution..put it in Airplane mode.
Yeah right..everyone is going to remember to do that.
Plus clubs would have to amend their etiquette rules and we know how difficult that is....
		
Click to expand...

Surely everyone already puts their phones on silent when playing anyway.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 12, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Surely everyone already puts their phones on silent when playing anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha ha


robinthehood said:



			But how is that any different to the current situation? Pretty much everyone has a phone anyway
		
Click to expand...

Does everyone take them out on the course..? And of those that do are they only there for emergency use..?
I can see, on the next tee, all 4 players get their phones out to input their score...someone will check their messages - guaranteed.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Ha ha ha ha

.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I know, I've been guilty of it myself. 

The phones on the course would only be necessary for live scoring, the app that I'm aware of is for score returning though it does include live scoring.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

I've played at courses that have electronic scorecards in the buggies. At the end of the round you can email the scorecard to yourself. If you can do that then surely it could be uploaded to the club system? It saves time for the handicap sec, paper and cost of printing for the clubs. Any amendments to club rules are done instantly, no need to wait for the next print run.

It will start to happen soon, apps are used for all sorts now. It just needs the likes of Club V1 to produce one and then away we all go.


----------



## Dando (Aug 12, 2019)

But what colour and length would the phones have to be?


----------



## larmen (Aug 12, 2019)

I bet it could be easily sold to some people if the app also measures pace of play when in live scoring mode ;-)

One 4ball has submitted hole 8, the following one submits hole 5 or 6 and they get a â€˜push notificationâ€™.


----------



## Wabinez (Aug 12, 2019)

agree, it will certainly happen - and it just takes one handicap system developer to take the leap.

I know Intelligent Golf have a score tracking feature already...but it's not necessarily used for competitions.  It's a piece of cake to log scores electronically - we have used it on weekends away, with technophobes and non-golfers logging scores - no problem.  They find it easier than marking a scorecard!

I wonder if the UHS will help prompt it.  Start by logging the 'supplementary' cards electronically, so instant results and updates can be seen....then bring it in to competition.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 12, 2019)

It is anticipated in the WHS implementation that players will be able to enter scores from anywhere but the Rules of Golf still require a physical card. There don't seem to be any plans to change that at present. 

Anyway, where would the local rules be printed?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

Apps from IG and CS are already there - but you still need to go to a PSI terminal to accept the score and you still need a score card signed by a marker which is of course rules of golf etc. 

People think itâ€™s easy to introduce new technologies- far from it and thatâ€™s coming from experience of someone who has introduced a new system and also including a scoring app - guess how many use the scoring app - a number between 1 and -1 - because the good old paper and pencils works just as well. Bringing in a scoring app doesnâ€™t improve anyone experience.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 12, 2019)

rulefan said:



			It is anticipated in the WHS implementation that players will be able to enter scores from anywhere but the Rules of Golf still require a physical card. There don't seem to be any plans to change that at present.

Anyway, where would the local rules be printed?
		
Click to expand...

In a subsection of the App plus a link to the rules...
I'm sure it will happen sooner or later but there are a lot of obstacles to overcome - including the R&A requiring a card.


----------



## jim8flog (Aug 12, 2019)

Our PSI computer frequently does not work e.g on Saturday anybody who started after 10.30 could not input their scores.

The reason it sometimes fails is because of the computer 'illiterate' people who start pressing the wrong buttons how are you going to get these type of players to use another method.

We reckon 5% of our members do not have a computer let alone a smart phone so what will these do.

 What happens when someone has forgotten to charge their phone?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 12, 2019)

I can see people trying to log into phones, type a score in etc really improving the pace of play - NOT. I personally don't take my phone onto the course and it stays in my locker (unless at an away club) and anyone I know who would need to contact me when I am playing all know to call the club who would send a buggy out in an emergency. My choice as I have a habit of always logging into it waiting between holes for footie scores, news etc which clearly isn't good for concentration. No phone = no distraction

I am more than happy to remain old school with card and pencil for as long as possible. We had the Vpar system on captains day a few years back where everyone was suppose to use their phone and log their score on each hole and it would show a live leaderboard. What a time consuming pain that was and if that's the future then I'm happy to not be part of it


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			We reckon 5% of our members do not have a computer let alone a smart phone so what will these do.

What happens when someone has forgotten to charge their phone?
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is there will still be a terminal for those dinosaurs who are still alive once this app comes live.


----------



## Dando (Aug 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I can see people trying to log into phones, type a score in etc really improving the pace of play - NOT. I personally don't take my phone onto the course and it stays in my locker (unless at an away club) and anyone I know who would need to contact me when I am playing all know to call the club who would send a buggy out in an emergency. My choice as I have a habit of always logging into it waiting between holes for footie scores, news etc which clearly isn't good for concentration. No phone = no distraction

I am more than happy to remain old school with card and pencil for as long as possible. We had the Vpar system on captains day a few years back where everyone was suppose to use their phone and log their score on each hole and it would show a live leaderboard. What a time consuming pain that was and if that's the future then I'm happy to not be part of it
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not time consuming at all!

When I add my scores to my gps app I do it when walking from the green to the next tee so it doesnâ€™t add any more time to my round of golf.

However there are some muppets who canâ€™t do 2 things at once.


----------



## CliveW (Aug 12, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It's my understanding that next season our scores are to be returned via a phone app which allows you to sign, whether the cards will still be present or not I don't know but this is unquestionably the future, I suspect the scorecard will still be available for those who don't have such a device to take app i.e. old coffin dodgers.
		
Click to expand...



I strongly object to being referred to as an old coffin dodger.


----------



## MegaSteve (Aug 12, 2019)

To err is human...
If you want a total muck up involve IT...

Oh... Loving the causal ageism ðŸ‘ðŸ˜ ...


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 12, 2019)

Dando said:



			Itâ€™s not time consuming at all!

When I add my scores to my gps app I do it when walking from the green to the next tee so it doesnâ€™t add any more time to my round of golf.

However there are some muppets who canâ€™t do 2 things at once.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree if the Vpar experiment is anything to go by. That was meant to simply put a score into an app and seemed to take time, especially as the app itself wasn't the most responsive/intuitive. Some will want to keep phones in their bag rather than pockets for comfort/safe guarding and so they then have to go to the bag, get the phone out, enter score, put the phone away. As there are already idiots at most clubs that will always leave a bag in a bad position by a green, I think there will then be others trying to do all this keying in by the green as well and it causing problems. Just my point of view of course.

I do think it is inevitable in the next decade that digitalisation will come into effect and electronic cards become more of a norm but until a system/app is produced that is quick, efficient and reliable I'll stick to the card and pencil


----------



## Crow (Aug 12, 2019)

Terrible idea, almost as bad as using metal for woods, hollow head irons, and graphite shafts. 

And what about all those people who've just invested in a nice scorecard holder?


----------



## Dando (Aug 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I disagree if the Vpar experiment is anything to go by. That was meant to simply put a score into an app and seemed to take time, especially as the app itself wasn't the most responsive/intuitive. Some will want to keep phones in their bag rather than pockets for comfort/safe guarding and so they then have to go to the bag, get the phone out, enter score, put the phone away. As there are already idiots at most clubs that will always leave a bag in a bad position by a green, I think there will then be others trying to do all this keying in by the green as well and it causing problems. Just my point of view of course.

I do think it is inevitable in the next decade that digitalisation will come into effect and electronic cards become more of a norm but until a system/app is produced that is quick, efficient and reliable I'll stick to the card and pencil
		
Click to expand...

No doubt there are people who leave their scorecard in their bags.
Is keying in your score by the green any worse than writing your score down by the green?


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2019)

IT ain't broke, why fix it.

I have two pals who have differant electronic devices. One a watch. He hasn't a bloody clue how to put the scores in. Whinging all the time, wrong hole, wrong score put in on right hole. It's purgatory listening to him. Other PP has a hand held device. Watching him put in pin position then drop the ball 30 yards short, long, left or right. Talk about slow play.
Then you want them to put it on an app, ie take out phone enter score, put phone away whilst walking to next hole. Ain't gonna happen. What's gonna happen is, get to next hole, phone out , open phone, open app,enter score, oh ave a txt, FB, missed call. Continue to read messages, return call. Then get score card out enter score manually. Then stand on tee looking at pin position entering pin position on sat nav. Look at wind direction up a club, down a  club and your playing in a fourball. All this done by the very people that say " Tash, put the scores in the computer in the 19th, coz ave not got me glasses on".
Me pencil and paper all day.


----------



## DCB (Aug 12, 2019)

Crow said:



			Terrible idea, almost as bad as using metal for woods, hollow head irons, and graphite shafts. 

And what about all those people who've just invested in a nice scorecard holder?
		
Click to expand...

Even worse, imagine having spent all that money on a full custom fit for that new scorecard holder.  You'll not be a happy bunny hearing this news


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I don't see any technical issues preventing its implementation but I also don't see any benefits, except environmental perhaps i.e. less trees giving up their lives to become scorecards.

As someone who helps with the cards at my golf club, many golfers have enough trouble filling in a scorecard with a pencil and inputting that into a PSI terminal, I don't see using a phone app being any better, could potentially cause more issues instead of trying to solve ones that don't exist in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Yup - 100% - seems to me like a solution looking for a problem.  And as others have identified - the sort of problems we'd have in such a future would be ones created by the solution.


----------



## IanG (Aug 12, 2019)

Playing in the deluge we've had this weekend not sure my fancy smart phone would have survived the wet finger stabbing necessary to input scores during the round. Card survived just fine.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Pretty much everyone nowadays has a smart phone, not entirely sure what could go wrong that you refer to.
		
Click to expand...

I have one but I have to ask the Mrs or Grandkids how to use it most of the time.


----------



## jmf1488 (Aug 12, 2019)

During our proffesionals day a year or two ago we had this app set up where everyone recordered their scores in it. Everyone else was able to see a live leader board and you could view anyone else's card. I think this will be the future once we get rid of the generation who do know how to use phones.


----------



## Jacko_G (Aug 12, 2019)

Dundonald used to get you to download an app for all "big" competitions and it was uploaded in live time back to the clubhouse. I never carry a phone on the course and used to cause problems.


----------



## patricks148 (Aug 12, 2019)

not for me, hardly if ever take my phone on the course, not to forget i get zero coverage at Nairn, plus you phone would get soaked when its raining


----------



## chrisd (Aug 12, 2019)

99% of the time I leave my phone in the car by choice. 

How would we act as a marker, we'd have no idea what scores a pp is inputting


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's a great idea and would like to see it happen , it would technically be easy to achieve.
		
Click to expand...

What about during the recent power cuts.
All the players would have gone home.
Technology is great but not infallible, you need some sort of manual back up when this happens.
Say you shot 65 and won a major then the club says itâ€™s cancelled the comp because of a power cut!


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 12, 2019)

Sounds lovely in an ideal world, I think there are plenty of drawbacks though.

If we're to use our own phones that's heavily reliant on people having good quality phones that have space to the run the app, and good enough battery life. If you're running an old phone you've forgotten to charge it up and it dies on the 14th hole, what's the fall back plan? If it's raining, people who's phones aren't waterproof wouldn't be keen to get them out either.
If as an alternative to the above, the club is provide devices for each player or even each group, that could be quite a large expense.
It's reliant on the more technophobic and/or older generation managing to use the score entry app without too much user error.
I don't think you can have two systems where some use it and some don't as some suggested, because you obviously mark the score for a FC rather than your own, so surely everyone has to be logged into this system online for that to take place, and for people to digitally sign their cards that someone else has marked?
For the reasons above, I suspect we're a good 8-10 years away from this happening really.


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

I donâ€™t think thereâ€™s a pressing need to go electronic but itâ€™s not the harbinger of doom some are making it out to be. At the right time (cost) then a rudimentary weather proof pocket sized tablet will be produced that can be given to each group

It will;

Record scores for each player 
Act as a GPS device & course/hole map
List rules of golf, local rules and other info
Have hole information/par/length SI etc 
Also be a basic messaging device with the starter, marshal, or pro shop
And probably a few other things too

These devices & the tech already exist and theyâ€™re fitted to buggyâ€™s and when the price gets low enough clubs will have 30-40 of a hand held variant rather than 30-40k of scorecards per year. It'll be fine


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Eh?
Amazingly my phone has a battery and isn't directly connected to the national grid.

I love all these reasons from the naysayers,  keep them coming.
		
Click to expand...

What about the PSI and local computer which is relying on the power ?

Your phone may have good battery what about people with older phones that donâ€™t and an app on all the time could drain the power


How does you WiFi in the clubhouse work without power ? How about if itâ€™s the local mast that is also affected which happened this weekend

And also tell me what problems it overcomes that a scorecard doesnâ€™t


----------



## Ross61 (Aug 12, 2019)

On a sunny day I struggle to see anything on my phone screen. Chubby fingers doesnâ€™t help either. 
I take my phone with me to golf and have it in my bag, but there is the odd occasion Iâ€™ve forgotten it. 
 You may say there are ways around this, but I always get given a card, I can always see what Iâ€™m writing and even If my pencil breaks I can borrow one. so what is the point of creating possible problems when there is not one to solve.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You make no sense , we already enter our scores into a computer at the end of the round.  This just moves it 1 step away.
A phone based system would  be less likely to have a problem as the scores will upload on the fly over the cellular networks, which should be able to survive a power cut.
		
Click to expand...

I saw a Godzilla film the other day where one of the monsters sent out an electro magnetic pulse that knocked out all communications. How are you going to record your scores then? .

I've yet to see any reason so far which can not be overcome. These types of questions have been raised in all areas of life and people have just adapted and got on with it. This change is pretty inevitable, it is just a matter of when.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about the PSI and local computer which is relying on the power ?

Your phone may have good battery what about people with older phones that donâ€™t and an app on all the time could drain the power


How does you WiFi in the clubhouse work without power ? How about if itâ€™s the local mast that is also affected which happened this weekend

And also tell me what problems it overcomes that a scorecard doesnâ€™t
		
Click to expand...

100% agree. Too many issues to really see this happening in the next decade and while it will happen in time I think there will always be card and pencil going hand and hand with electronic technology. People won't embrace change


----------



## Grant85 (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about the PSI and local computer which is relying on the power ?

Your phone may have good battery what about people with older phones that donâ€™t and an app on all the time could drain the power


How does you WiFi in the clubhouse work without power ? How about if itâ€™s the local mast that is also affected which happened this weekend

And also tell me what problems it overcomes that a scorecard doesnâ€™t
		
Click to expand...

This is ridiculous. 

The number of people who can afford to play golf at a members club and don't have a smartphone is probably tiny (a fraction of 1%) and reducing every year. 
Even the coffin dodgers all have Samsungs or iphones. My mum actually has a better iphone than me, which I personally feel ashamed about when she asks me how to 'download music onto my phone' for her. And I then have to explain to her what streaming is. 

And if they don't have one - sell or rent them a handheld device that has a single use for returning scores during competition. 

All the old coffin dodgers manage to remember and charge their battery for their trolley. 
Although most weeks I struggle to get round the course because a few dozen people's batteries have run out and the course is just strewn with discarded clubs and trolleys due to technology completely failing them. 
Oh wait - I've actually NEVER seen a battery run out or a trolley break during the round because people do this thing called 'forward planning' where they charge their battery before they go and play golf. 

A good robust, easy to use app would have fewer problems than people losing their card during the round, or forgetting it all together or making such a mess of filling it in that a secretary could barely decipher the scores anyway, without seeing them on the terminal.


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I saw a Godzilla film the other day where one of the monsters sent out an electro magnetic pulse that knocked out all communications. How are you going to record your scores then? .

I've yet to see any reason so far which can not be overcome. These types of questions have been raised in all areas of life and people have just adapted and got on with it. This change is pretty inevitable, it is just a matter of when.
		
Click to expand...


Yup, So many posts about why it canâ€™t work rather than how it might workâ€¦ No wonder clubs still have sock rules


----------



## Grant85 (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about the PSI and local computer which is relying on the power ?

Your phone may have good battery what about people with older phones that donâ€™t and an app on all the time could drain the power


How does you WiFi in the clubhouse work without power ? How about if itâ€™s the local mast that is also affected which happened this weekend

And also tell me what problems it overcomes that a scorecard doesnâ€™t
		
Click to expand...

What if you are filling out your paper scorecard and a bolt of lightning strikes it and sets it on fire? 

You would then have no way of recording and returning a score!


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about the PSI and local computer which is relying on the power ?

Your phone may have good battery what about people with older phones that donâ€™t and an app on all the time could drain the power


How does you WiFi in the clubhouse work without power ? How about if itâ€™s the local mast that is also affected which happened this weekend

And also tell me what problems it overcomes that a scorecard doesnâ€™t
		
Click to expand...

I do think the _only_ way this will work is if the club has a number of handheld devices specifically for the purpose of score entry, and they give one to each group. To rely on people's own phones is unreasonable and inconsistent I think. If it's on devices held by the club, then they can be charged in good time, and in the event of a system failure, power cut or whatever, the scores can simply be left active on the devices and compiled at a later stage. Rather than everyone taking their scores home with them on their phones.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You make no sense , we already enter our scores into a computer at the end of the round.  This just moves it 1 step away.
A phone based system would  be less likely to have a problem as the scores will upload on the fly over the cellular networks, which should be able to survive a power cut.

What do you do at the moment if there is no power in the clubhouse ? Do you have a ups for your terminal ?
I'm guessing you just wait...
		
Click to expand...

It doesnâ€™t â€œmoveâ€ one step away itâ€™s just a different step and just because itâ€™s technical doesnâ€™t make that step â€œbetterâ€ 

And as been said if your Club has lost power how do they get the scores off your phone ? 

With a paper scorecard itâ€™s all there and doesnâ€™t rely on power or cellular masts etc all which went down this weekend due to the power cut


----------



## Imurg (Aug 12, 2019)

As I've admitted, I can see it coming but what are the advantages.?
The point of change is to improve
I can't see how this is going to be any easier than the current system.
Let's assume that we have taken on this tech.
On the course you record your score on an app.
Get in after the round - has your score automatically been entered? Who checks it? 
If you've put a wrong score down you have the ability to amend your card before it's signed - if your score has already been uploaded can you still do this?
Great as the tech may be, as forward thinking as it may be it's just easier writing a number on a piece of card.
In theory it's great but just because you can doesn't mean you should.


----------



## SatchFan (Aug 12, 2019)

There's no way my phone could cope. See picture.




I make calls and I even had a text once. All for less than Â£10 a year. If someone wants me to record a score electronically then I'd happily use a supplied handheld gadget but I'm certainly not going to fork out for a new phone to complete the task.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			A good robust, easy to use app would have fewer problems than people losing their card during the round, or forgetting it all together or making such a mess of filling it in that a secretary could barely decipher the scores anyway, without seeing them on the terminal.
		
Click to expand...

And there in lies a problem - a robust easy to use app. I tried Vpar and was very disappointed with ease of use etc. I have never seen anyone lose a card in a competition. I have had trolley batteries die (even though it indicated it was fully charged). At the moment we have to enter scores on PSI after the round. It gives a player a chance to check and query any differences before entering and accepting a score and submitting the signed card. What if a score is entered wrongly on an app. Will it feed directly into the system and can't be changed. How do scores get edited and then approved as correct.


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			And there was this time my pencil broke.....
		
Click to expand...

And remember that time it rained and the card got soggy (it was a while ago but still it could happen again)


----------



## Imurg (Aug 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			What if you are filling out your paper scorecard and a bolt of lightning strikes it and sets it on fire?

You would then have no way of recording and returning a score!
		
Click to expand...

Dr...you're probably dead so you don't care


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And there in lies a problem - a robust easy to use app. I tried Vpar and was very disappointed with ease of use etc. I have never seen anyone lose a card in a competition. I have had trolley batteries die (even though it indicated it was fully charged)
		
Click to expand...

Have you ever seen anyone with a soggy scorecard making it illegible?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 12, 2019)

Slab said:



			Have you ever seen anyone with a soggy scorecard making it illegible?
		
Click to expand...

Of course but surely it's not different to people getting a phone out in the rain. Many will be reluctant to do so


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 12, 2019)

CliveW said:



			I strongly object to being referred to as an old coffin dodger.
		
Click to expand...

I don't object at all. The longer I can keep dodging, the better.

I must say I can't see the R&A readily embracing giving up the card and pencil to smartphones 
Does the R&A still require players to mark their cards in the case  of pro golfers on the PGA and European tours. .?
If so, there is an area where they could modernise.
The scoreboard arrangements as seen on TV are on top of the scoring, aided and abetted by the guy walking with each group showing the score, to par, of each player in the group.
Everyone at the game played at that level knows exactly what the score is.
It would be positively unfair and ludicrous for a player to be "de Vicenzoed "
 in this day and age.
And just because us amateurs rightly have to mark and submit our cards doesn't mean the elite pros have to do it

As a point of interest( if they still have to use pencil and card), do the pros do their cards , or do they rely on their caddies .?


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			100% agree. Too many issues to really see this happening in the next decade and while it will happen in time I think there will always be card and pencil going hand and hand with electronic technology. People won't embrace change
		
Click to expand...

Online booking systems were revolutionary once, now they are the norm. Downloading music was never going to catch on........Some people will fight against it for the sake of it, some will fight against it, use it then realise it is not so scary after all and actually makes life easier.


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Of course but surely it's not different to people getting a phone out in the rain. Many will be reluctant to do so
		
Click to expand...

Forget the phone for a moment, focusing on the device is preventing you seeing the bigger picture. Assume the club issued each group with a weatherproof hand held device as i described on previous page


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Doesn't have to  be a phone. Clubs could supply handheld devices.
		
Click to expand...

Many clubs are struggling financially and the priority would surely be on maintaining the course and spending cash on that machinery. This seems like a cost many would neither be able to afford of see as a high priority


----------



## TheJezster (Aug 12, 2019)

The technology is definitely there, but will it happen anytime soon?  Personally I doubt it.

My guess is they will monitor how the imputing of your own scores goes over the next few years first.

I quite like writing the scores on a card.  Don't get me wrong, we've all got our phones on us, well most of us, and we use them during the rounds to check latest scores etc, especially in the footy season but I'm not sure I'd like to imput my scores online until after.

As a club we have decided not to utulise the leaderboard option on our system as our comps run across the weekend and it was felt that some people might not enter on a Sunday if they knew a good score was in on the Saturday.
But for big events, run over single days, this can be switched on.


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Many clubs are struggling financially and the priority would surely be on maintaining the course and spending cash on that machinery. This seems like a cost many would neither be able to afford of see as a high priority
		
Click to expand...

Ok now assume the cost of club issued hand held devices is cheaper than scorecard printing costs...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

Ross61 said:



*On a sunny day I struggle to see anything on my phone screen. *Chubby fingers doesnâ€™t help either.
I take my phone with me to golf and have it in my bag, but there is the odd occasion Iâ€™ve forgotten it.
You may say there are ways around this, but I always get given a card, I can always see what Iâ€™m writing and even If my pencil breaks I can borrow one. so what is the point of creating possible problems when there is not one to solve.
		
Click to expand...

This^^^  I recently had a go at using my iPhone as a 3minute counter.  I gave up immediately as I couldn't see the screen due to glare - that and I struggle in any case as I wear distance vision contact lenses and trying to read something on a phone screen outside is pretty much impossible. 

The suggestion is a solution looking for a problem; and it is a solution that will, in any case, give rise to types of score recording problems that cannot rise with a card and a pencil - there is nothing simpler - no need to complicate things.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 12, 2019)

So some wonâ€™t wear a watch on the course as thatâ€™s â€œtheir timeâ€ and donâ€™t want to worry about what time it is, how long theyâ€™ve searched for etc, but now want people to take their phone onto the course to score?
To my mind, this is an answer for something that isnâ€™t a question or problem. Simples beats techno any day.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

Imurg said:



			On the course you record your score on an app.
Get in after the round - has your score automatically been entered? Who checks it?
If you've put a wrong score down you have the ability to amend your card before it's signed - if your score has already been uploaded can you still do this?
		
Click to expand...

You check it against the scores marked by your PP, as you do now. You amend if necessary and then press submit. It is what happens when I enter my scores into the club computer, it asks me if I am sure I want to submit my card. Similar also to when you complete your card and put it in the box. Once in the box you can't pull it out again, it is the same as when you have submitted it.


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This^^^  I recently had a go at using my iPhone as a 3minute counter.  I gave up immediately as I couldn't see the screen due to glare - that and I struggle in any case as I wear distance vision contact lenses and trying to read something on a phone screen outside is pretty much impossible.

*The suggestion is a solution looking for a problem; *and it is a solution that will, in any case, give rise to types of score recording problems that cannot rise with a card and a pencil - there is nothing simpler - no need to complicate things.
		
Click to expand...

You only need to mark one set of comp cards to see there is a problem (naturally the scale will vary)


----------



## Imurg (Aug 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You check it against the scores marked by your PP, as you do now. You amend if necessary and then press submit. It is what happens when I enter my scores into the club computer, it asks me if I am sure I want to submit my card. Similar also to when you complete your card and put it in the box. Once in the box you can't pull it out again, it is the same as when you have submitted it.
		
Click to expand...

Are they not checked again when the comp is being processed and closed?
If it's the same as now what are the benefits of doing it?
Any change is going to cause an expense somewhere. 
That expense needs to show real benefits to the system otherwise it's change for the sake of change


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Are they not checked again when the comp is being processed and closed?
If it's the same as now what are the benefits of doing it?
Any change is going to cause an expense somewhere.
That expense needs to show real benefits to the system otherwise it's change for the sake of change
		
Click to expand...

It saves time for the comp sec, no need to check cards, no need to spend time trying to decipher illegible writing. They just press a button. 

Why did clubs bring in computers to enter scores at the end of rounds? Cards are used, why use computers? This is the same but a step further forward, eliminating the card aspect altogether.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I'm lost..?  How do you get the scores into the computer at the moment if you have a power cut  and the psi is down ?
		
Click to expand...

You donâ€™t - you get all the score cards together , work out who has won , and hey presto itâ€™s done , HC calculations are then worked out manually - just how it was before. Itâ€™s what we had to do when our hard drive crashed with our CS data on it.

A paper and pencil works perfectly well 

So what exactly does using a mobile as a scorecard give you that improves on the good old paper score card - what are the benefits that we just donâ€™t get right now. 


Grant85 said:



			This is ridiculous.

The number of people who can afford to play golf at a members club and don't have a smartphone is probably tiny (a fraction of 1%) and reducing every year.
Even the coffin dodgers all have Samsungs or iphones. My mum actually has a better iphone than me, which I personally feel ashamed about when she asks me how to 'download music onto my phone' for her. And I then have to explain to her what streaming is.

And if they don't have one - sell or rent them a handheld device that has a single use for returning scores during competition.

All the old coffin dodgers manage to remember and charge their battery for their trolley.
Although most weeks I struggle to get round the course because a few dozen people's batteries have run out and the course is just strewn with discarded clubs and trolleys due to technology completely failing them.
Oh wait - I've actually NEVER seen a battery run out or a trolley break during the round because people do this thing called 'forward planning' where they charge their battery before they go and play golf.

A good robust, easy to use app would have fewer problems than people losing their card during the round, or forgetting it all together or making such a mess of filling it in that a secretary could barely decipher the scores anyway, without seeing them on the terminal.
		
Click to expand...

Your tone is extremely disrespectful to a lot of forum members and indeed golfers who play the game , your estimates are also wildly inaccurate if you think itâ€™s â€œtinyâ€ that people donâ€™t have smart phones. I know plenty that donâ€™t have them , even people I work with donâ€™t have them , they donâ€™t see the need - they have a mobile that someone can call them on and send them a message , I know some that donâ€™t even have a mobile. 

How many people do you think actually â€œloseâ€ their card ? In all my time of doing the comps the biggest issue people had was - using the PSI and inputting scores onto small screens , they found writing the score on a bit a paper a doddle - worked with little problems.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It saves time for the comp sec, no need to check cards, no need to spend time trying to decipher illegible writing. They just press a button.

Why did clubs bring in computers to enter scores at the end of rounds? Cards are used, why use computers? This is the same but a step further forward, eliminating the card aspect altogether.
		
Click to expand...

You still need to check the cards - why do you believe that because they are put into a computer they no longer need checking ? 

Even if itâ€™s electronic you still need to check the card and Iâ€™ll tell you now I see more errors putting the scores onto the computer than I do on a scorecard. 

And psi were brought in to help with Handicap calculations and the results to be sent to CDH quicker and to print off results quickly - cards still need checking regardless of what format is used


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You still need to check the cards - why do you believe that because they are put into a computer they no longer need checking ?

Even if itâ€™s electronic you still need to check the card and Iâ€™ll tell you now I see more errors putting the scores onto the computer than I do on a scorecard.

And psi were brought in to help with Handicap calculations and the results to be sent to CDH quicker and to print off results quickly - cards still need checking regardless of what format is used
		
Click to expand...

What is it that is being checked? The system will add up the shots, award points, take into account handicap etc.

If checking of some sort is required it can be done via computer, either at home or at the club. All clearly visible as there is no handwriting to work out, smudges etc. It is easier.


----------



## The Fader (Aug 12, 2019)

During the height of the space race in the 1960s, legend has it, NASA scientists realized that pens could not function in space. They needed to figure out another way for the astronauts to write things down. So they spent years and millions of taxpayer dollars to develop a pen that could put ink to paper without gravity. But their crafty Soviet counterparts, so the story goes, simply handed their cosmonauts pencils. 

I believe this may well be an urban myth - but you get my point!!


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

Why couldnâ€™t this device be, handheld, pocket sized, weather proof, battery powered. Loaded with Rules app, local rules, ball search timer, halfway house snack pre-order software, GPS pace of play warnings, multiplayer scorecard (with safeguards over inputting), player handicap stroke information, hole distance GPS, leader boards, matchplay scoring. Able to be remotely locked if not returned on day of use, contact alerts with clubhouse for medical emergencies, anti-glare touchscreen, able to download 40,000 courses and a dozen other things  

People are talking like this is alien technology thatâ€™ll cost thousands and players will need to speak Klingon to decipher how to use it. Absolutely every bit of tech already exists including the device and almost all is currently being used by golfers in one form or another all over the worldâ€¦ today
Some of the cost will even be recouped through advertising/sponsorship as it is with scorecards today 

Itâ€™ll happen on a grand scale as soon as the cost is even close to comparable for printing scorecards/pencils. Its inevitable, and the real question is at that time, why would some members force their clubs to continue with the additional cost of printing scorecards etc when cheaper options are available!


----------



## Imurg (Aug 12, 2019)

If it becomes cheaper to buy and maintain devices like these than print scorecards then that shows a real benefit.
Job done.
Then it's just a matter of overcoming decades of ingrained processes.
But how long will that take?


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

Imurg said:



			If it becomes cheaper to buy and maintain devices like these than print scorecards then that shows a real benefit.
Job done.
*Then it's just a matter of overcoming decades of ingrained processes.
But how long will that take?*

Click to expand...

On the basis of recent dress code threads..............


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 12, 2019)

The Fader said:



			During the height of the space race in the 1960s, legend has it, NASA scientists realized that pens could not function in space. They needed to figure out another way for the astronauts to write things down. So they spent years and millions of taxpayer dollars to develop a pen that could put ink to paper without gravity. But their crafty Soviet counterparts, so the story goes, simply handed their cosmonauts pencils.

I believe this may well be an urban myth - but you get my point!!
		
Click to expand...

Yeah it's not true. Pencils were deemed no good because the led could break off, float around in zero gravity and go in someone's eye.


----------



## Slab (Aug 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah it's not true. Pencils were deemed no good because the led could break off, float around in zero gravity and go in someone's eye.
		
Click to expand...

Same reason you'll never see an astronaut in zero gravity run with scissors


----------



## Ross61 (Aug 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah it's not true. Pencils were deemed no good because the led could break off, float around in zero gravity and go in someone's eye.
		
Click to expand...

Not just that but a graphite pencil conducts electricity and floating bits could get into the equipment


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

Did they crayons instead then? Did anyone crack the pen in space conundrum?


----------



## GB72 (Aug 12, 2019)

I see this as a great idea going forward. Use the kindle technology for the screen. Cheap to produce, can be seen even in bright sunlight, easily adjustable font sizes etc, seems perfect. Type in the score as you go, tap the device on a terminal in the clubhouse to upload the data, seems a no brainer. No queues at the computer whilst people try to read someone elses handwriting, no ruined cards in bad weather, better for the environment and must be cheaper in the long run rather than producing thousands of score cards. If you could get the price of such a device in under Â£50 (which I cannot see as much of an issue due to only needing fairly basic tech), I cannot see too many people objecting to buying one.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

Slab said:



View attachment 27932


Why couldnâ€™t this device be, handheld, pocket sized, weather proof, battery powered. Loaded with Rules app, local rules, ball search timer, halfway house snack pre-order software, GPS pace of play warnings, multiplayer scorecard (with safeguards over inputting), player handicap stroke information, hole distance GPS, leader boards, matchplay scoring. Able to be remotely locked if not returned on day of use, contact alerts with clubhouse for medical emergencies, anti-glare touchscreen, able to download 40,000 courses and a dozen other things

People are talking like this is alien technology thatâ€™ll cost thousands and players will need to speak Klingon to decipher how to use it. Absolutely every bit of tech already exists including the device and almost all is currently being used by golfers in one form or another all over the worldâ€¦ today
Some of the cost will even be recouped through advertising/sponsorship as it is with scorecards today

Itâ€™ll happen on a grand scale as soon as the cost is even close to comparable for printing scorecards/pencils. Its inevitable, and the real question is at that time, why would some members force their clubs to continue with the additional cost of printing scorecards etc when cheaper options are available!
		
Click to expand...

Do you think GPS devices are getting cheaper or more expensive?

8 years ago a basic one was around Â£150 - equivalent is now around Â£250

That device you suggest is lovely , right now they cost around Â£1k to put into buggies , a smaller one is around Â£500 - so  every member will need one - who pays for  it ? Even if itâ€™s just 200 numbers thatâ€™s nearly Â£10k for something which changes what exactly ? Replaced a bit of paper and pencil which prob cost around 10pence

For the same price as one of those devices you have a years worth of scorecards.

All the technology does exist and right now golfers can chose if they want to use it because itâ€™s not cheap

One of the biggest hurdles in golf is cost - one of the biggest things the clubs have to juggle is cost so what does adding these devices do for the sport beyond bringing up the cost ?
Decades away from making a electronic device cheaper than a paper scorecard and pencil.

And then the expectation that every single golfer is â€œtech savvyâ€ - just go to a golf club during a Comp and see how many struggle with just taping numbers on a big PSI and see how many give up - average around 20 per Comp - and people think it will be easier for them to use an even smaller screen ?!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

GB72 said:



			I see this as a great idea going forward. Use the kindle technology for the screen. Cheap to produce, can be seen even in bright sunlight, easily adjustable font sizes etc, seems perfect. Type in the score as you go, tap the device on a terminal in the clubhouse to upload the data, seems a no brainer. No queues at the computer whilst people try to read someone elses handwriting, no ruined cards in bad weather, better for the environment and must be cheaper in the long run rather than producing thousands of score cards. *If you could get the price of such a device in under Â£50 (which I cannot see as much of an issue due to only needing fairly basic tech), I cannot see too many people objecting to buying one.*

Click to expand...

When a piece of tech is a 'must have' - or even perceived to be so - then the cost of the tech due to it's complexity will be the bottom line cost but retailers will then try and get as much as they can from selling to their captive market.

And why would I *not* object to having to pay Â£50 for something that I simply don't need.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 12, 2019)

brfcfan said:



			I am the comp sec at our club and after each comp I count the returned cards see if they are signed etc etc.

I think that this could be done electronically, with electronic signatures, saving the need for players to input their score on the main terminal and comp secs the time in counting cards and time in finding out who hasn't returned a card.

Would this method be allowed under the current CONGU rules, and if so has any clubs used this method or thinking about it?
		
Click to expand...

Surely a simpler method would be to modify current PSI system (and associated rules) to replace the 'dependence' on the returned card - which would still be useful for all (but scores, handicap and signature) current functions. There are multiple ways in which the 'signature' requirement could be handled. Card could, as now, still be the ultimate reference for sig etc. and a simple 'who hasn't returned a score' process could identify PSI slackers.

I don't see any great need for 'online' scoring facilities - though it has been available (e.g. thru VPar) for a number of years. I've used it in ProAm comps several times.

Having been a Comp Sec in the past, I can appreciate the amount of work regd to handle slackers, but that's just 'part of the job' and can be handled with sanctions if deemed necessary. Whichever method of obtaining scores/collating results is installed, there'll be some who cause issues that will cost administrators time!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well so far  no one has produced a valid reason for why it can't or shouldn't be done.
I run my life via the internet,  almost totally paperless, banking,  shopping,  insurance,  doctors,  pay slips etc...

But some how we can't add up 18 numbers for a bunch of golfers ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

And no one has come up with exactly how it changes your golf for the better that makes it worthwhile doing. 

Why is it better than paper and pencil


----------



## Doh (Aug 12, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Pretty much everyone nowadays has a smart phone, not entirely sure what could go wrong that you refer to.
		
Click to expand...


Yes you are quite right about that.


----------



## GB72 (Aug 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			When a piece of tech is a 'must have' - or even perceived to be so - then the cost of the tech due to it's complexity will be the bottom line cost but retailers will then try and get as much as they can from selling to their captive market.

And why would I *not* object to having to pay Â£50 for something that I simply don't need.
		
Click to expand...

If it becomes the norm then it is just the same as any other piece of equipment that you will need to play golf. At the moment you do not need it but going forward you may well do.


Liverpoolphil said:



			And no one has come up with exactly how it changes your golf for the better that makes it worthwhile doing.

Why is it better than paper and pencil
		
Click to expand...

Because producing scorecards is a cost every year, because making amendments to paper scorecards is a further expense that then potentially requires the destruction of existing supplies that are out of date, because it may be better for the environment, because paper scorecards are inherently impractical in a number of weather conditions, because uploading scores using an NFC link is far quicker than typing in by hand, because the device could record far more data than just scores if needed, including pace of play etc. Can think of a number of reasons why it would be better.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

GB72 said:



			If it becomes the norm then it is just the same as any other piece of equipment that you will need to play golf. At the moment you do not need it but going forward you may well do.

Because producing scorecards is a cost every year, because making amendments to paper scorecards is a further expense that then potentially requires the destruction of existing supplies that are out of date, because it may be better for the environment, because paper scorecards are inherently impractical in a number of weather conditions, because uploading scores using an NFC link is far quicker than typing in by hand, because the device could record far more data than just scores if needed, including pace of play etc. Can think of a number of reasons why it would be better.
		
Click to expand...

If you bring cost into it there is only one winner - the paper scorecard , far far cheaper to produce a score card than it is an electronic device that will do the same job - it costs us about Â£1k for a couple years worth of score cards. 

Better for the environment? What does it take to produce all these electronic devices - are they all totally clean 

Weather - electronics and water , Cold , heat , frost all have their issues 

And far quicker to type than write a number ? Really ? 

What happens when you drop it on a hard service perhaps - how easily are electronic devices damaged 


Basically some people love technology and want it everywhere in their life - they arenâ€™t the majority


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 12, 2019)

GB72 said:



			I see this as a great idea going forward. Use the kindle technology for the screen. Cheap to produce, can be seen even in bright sunlight, easily adjustable font sizes etc, seems perfect. Type in the score as you go, tap the device on a terminal in the clubhouse to upload the data, seems a no brainer. No queues at the computer whilst people try to read someone elses handwriting, no ruined cards in bad weather, better for the environment and must be cheaper in the long run rather than producing thousands of score cards. If you could get the price of such a device in under Â£50 (which I cannot see as much of an issue due to only needing fairly basic tech), I cannot see too many people objecting to buying one.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have thought you make the golfers buy the devices. The cost of them would surely be taken on by the club, and they keep the devices locked up somewhere between rounds.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 12, 2019)

GB72 said:



			If it becomes the norm then it is just the same as any other piece of equipment that you will need to play golf. At the moment you do not need it but going forward you may well do....
		
Click to expand...

Still an unnecessary/avoidable cost! At least compared to a pencil and (club provided) scorecard.



GB72 said:



			....

Because producing scorecards is a cost every year, because making amendments to paper scorecards is a further expense that then potentially requires the destruction of existing supplies that are out of date, because it may be better for the environment, because paper scorecards are inherently impractical in a number of weather conditions, because uploading scores using an NFC link is far quicker than typing in by hand, because the device could record far more data than just scores if needed, including pace of play etc. Can think of a number of reasons why it would be better.
		
Click to expand...

This is not going to eliminate the (pretty trivial) cost of producing scorecards!

I learnt early on in my almost 40 years as an IT professional that there's a significant difference between what is *possible*, what is *desirable* and what is *practical/sensible*!  

Btw. I know a couple of clubs thet 'made a profit' from the advertising on scorecards!


----------



## GB72 (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you bring cost into it there is only one winner - the paper scorecard , far far cheaper to produce a score card than it is an electronic device that will do the same job - it costs us about Â£1k for a couple years worth of score cards.

Better for the environment? What does it take to produce all these electronic devices - are they all totally clean

Weather - electronics and water , Cold , heat , frost all have their issues

And far quicker to type than write a number ? Really ?

What happens when you drop it on a hard service perhaps - how easily are electronic devices damaged


Basically some people love technology and want it everywhere in their life - they arenâ€™t the majority
		
Click to expand...

True, the environmental impact would need to be assessed but on a national of global scale the reduction in use of disposable assets could be a benefit. 

With regards weather, electronics that hold up to the elements are pretty much common now, not hard to waterproof a chip or whole device. 

With regards speed, I was looking more at downloading via a tap with an NFC enabled device after a round rather than typing scores into a computer. 

Damage is not an issue, easy to have a device than can take a drop. 

As for cost, it would take an annual cost away from the club and pass a small, one off cost on to each member. Many clubs would be thankful to remove an annual cost from the budget. 

Many people see the benefit of technology over using outdated methods such as paper and pencil.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

GB72 said:



			True, the environmental impact would need to be assessed but on a national of global scale the reduction in use of disposable assets could be a benefit.

With regards weather, electronics that hold up to the elements are pretty much common now, not hard to waterproof a chip or whole device.

With regards speed, I was looking more at downloading via a tap with an NFC enabled device after a round rather than typing scores into a computer.

Damage is not an issue, easy to have a device than can take a drop.

As for cost, it would take an annual cost away from the club and pass a small, one off cost on to each member. Many clubs would be thankful to remove an annual cost from the budget.

Many people see the benefit of technology over using outdated methods such as paper and pencil.
		
Click to expand...

Waterproofing , hard cases to prevent damages, etc etc all adds up in the cost of a device 

And to buy these devices for all members will cost how much - even if itâ€™s Â£100-150 per devices thatâ€™s over Â£20k as a â€œone off costâ€ of just for 200 members - thatâ€™s 20 years of score cards - and then itâ€™s not just a one off cost is it. Electronic devices donâ€™t last forever , they need to be maintained, possibly licensed as well , I suspect after 5 years they will start to drop in performance 

And you really think the members would be happy for a â€œsmall one off costâ€ for something that the good old pencil and paper does the job for them ?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well so far  no one has produced a valid reason for why it can't or shouldn't be done.
I run my life via the internet,  almost totally paperless, banking,  shopping,  insurance,  doctors,  pay slips etc...

But some how we can't add up 18 numbers for a bunch of golfers ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

And some golfers cant even read club rules on changing, dress codes etc ec, so if they can't read a few workds how do you expect them to operate a bit of tech?

As I understand it, the top 10 scores for all comps/medals have the cards corss referenced with the inputted score to make sure nothing is untoward. I ocnsider that a good thing, since there's some who knowingly manipulate their hcp for any amount of reasons.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You've no idea how much the devices would cost. Seeing as you can buy a new phone for less than a pound id  be surprised if it were expensive
		
Click to expand...

From where excatly?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Or download a free app ðŸ˜‰

As for the cost, you're just pulling meaningless numbers out of the air.
You've no idea how much the devices would cost. Seeing as you can buy a new phone for less than a pound id  be surprised if it were expensive
		
Click to expand...


Free App ? Sorry but if itâ€™s free app then itâ€™s full of adverts and a phone for a Â£1 ?! Really ? Which phone is that


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why does free = ads ?
		
Click to expand...

Because thatâ€™s what I see on 99% of free apps , someone somewhere will need to pay for the App to be developed. All the golf systems that we use have a yearly subscription in the thousands - why would an APP be free

And then it needs to go on a device - is that free as well ?

And this phone for a Â£1 ? Not really a smart phone capable of whatâ€™s being suggested is it


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's a phone for a pound,  used to demonstrate that technology is cheap and the cost isn't the barrier you'd pretend it would be.
		
Click to expand...

It's not a smart phone you said everyone could have for a Â£1, which the minimum price spend is Â£10 anyway


----------



## sunshine (Aug 12, 2019)

brfcfan said:



			I am the comp sec at our club and after each comp I count the returned cards see if they are signed etc etc.

I think that this could be done electronically, with electronic signatures, saving the need for players to input their score on the main terminal and comp secs the time in counting cards and time in finding out who hasn't returned a card.

Would this method be allowed under the current CONGU rules, and if so has any clubs used this method or thinking about it?
		
Click to expand...

I have often thought the comp sec has a laborious and unnecessary job, wading through all the scorecards when the info has already been entered in the scoring system.

Surely it would be easy to add functionality to the PSI terminal whereby the both the marker and player need to confirm the score on the screen prior to submitting. The score in the PSI should be the official record, and the paper (or electronic or whatever) scorecard can be binned.

People are lazy with entering scores electronically because they know someone else is going to check their scorecard, it would be different if this became the only official record. Everyone manages to use a cash point ok.

The next step, an electronic scorecard, isn't going to happen for a while.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ah that's because I didn't say that.
		
Click to expand...

So pretty pointless pointing out a Â£1 (with Â£10 minimal cost) that doesn't work and do the job in question.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you bring cost into it there is only one winner - the paper scorecard , far far cheaper to produce a score card than it is an electronic device that will do the same job - it costs us about Â£1k for a couple years worth of score cards.

Better for the environment? What does it take to produce all these electronic devices - are they all totally clean

Weather - electronics and water , Cold , heat , frost all have their issues

And far quicker to type than write a number ? Really ?

What happens when you drop it on a hard service perhaps - how easily are electronic devices damaged


Basically some people love technology and want it everywhere in their life - they arenâ€™t the majority
		
Click to expand...

...and because of glare I found that I could not read my (not very smart) phone - when I tried to use it as a stopwatch.  Being 'long-sighted' with the contact lenses I wear for golf makes it difficult - even when it's dull.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I wouldn't have thought you make the golfers buy the devices. The cost of them would surely be taken on by the club, and they keep the devices locked up somewhere between rounds.
		
Click to expand...

We regularly have 140 members playing in our medals...and 150 signed up for 1st round of Club Champs in two weeks time - and there would have to be one each.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

GB72 said:



			True, the environmental impact would need to be assessed but on a national of global scale the reduction in use of disposable assets could be a benefit.

With regards weather, electronics that hold up to the elements are pretty much common now, not hard to waterproof a chip or whole device.

With regards speed, I was looking more at downloading via a tap with an NFC enabled device after a round rather than typing scores into a computer.

Damage is not an issue, easy to have a device than can take a drop.

As for cost, it would take an annual cost away from the club and pass a small, one off cost on to each member. Many clubs would be thankful to remove an annual cost from the budget.

Many people see the benefit of technology over using *outdated methods such as paper and pencil.*

Click to expand...

What on earth is outdated about it...it is an appropriate and simple solution to a need - recording a score.  Come up with additional *needs *and *then *the scorecard may not fit the bill.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's a phone for a pound,  used to demonstrate that technology is cheap and the cost isn't the barrier you'd pretend it would be.

I already use howdidido app for all comp bookings etc , the ads in that are perfectly acceptable and and additional score card function would be easily added.

I'm not for a second suggesting a sudden  switch to a electronic system, but there are plenty who would welcome it and it could easily work alongside the current system.
It's just sad that attitudes like yours exist and are unwilling to accept change.
Although in your specific case I think it's more about taking the contrary view and getting embroiled in a back and forth post count accumulator.
		
Click to expand...

Attitudes like mine ?! 

Do you mean being against adding further cost into a sport that is already expensive and doesnâ€™t enhance the sport enough to justify the extra cost 

As already stated we have mobile scoring turned on - people can enter their score on their mobile as well as a scorecard and then accept it on the PSI - no one uses it , everyone just uses the scorecard.

Have you ever been involved in comps or the it systems that administer them ? I have - for a significant period , I brought in IG to the club and 4 years down the line people are still struggling with it now. 

Maybe when you realise that there are many members of clubs thatâ€™s just arenâ€™t as tech savvy as you and struggle even just putting scores into a PSI


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We regularly have 140 members playing in our medals...and 150 signed up for 1st round of Club Champs in two weeks time - and there would have to be one each.
		
Click to expand...

Well no, one device per group where you put all three/four players' scores in would probably work. But I still agree it would be quite an expense for the club, that's what I said initially.


----------



## Rlburnside (Aug 12, 2019)

This will probably come in sometime but I would rather stick with scorecard and pencil.

You canâ€™t go anywhere without someone on a phone, walking down a busy street, on buses, trains restaurants, even whilst driving, noticed Alli txting at the match yesterday,what about watching the game instead?

No keep them off a golf course I say.

On another thread someone mentioned they would use a phone on a course to see what results happened in big sporting events, why? can it not wait a couple of hours?

If this came into use you can be sure that some people would use it to send and receive  txts.

Christ I sound like that old boy off Mum which Iâ€™ve been told Iâ€™m getting to resemble ðŸ˜‚


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			There is no need to buy devices . Allow those who want use smartphones.  Those who don't stick with what they know.  I think if a system were put in place it would soon gain popularity. Even possibly amongst the change is bad brigade
		
Click to expand...

Change is not bad per se - but if it not necessary then it can be counter-productive and frustrating.  Find a new need then propose a new tech-based solution.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Well no, one device per group where you put all three/four players' scores in would probably work. But I still agree it would be quite an expense for the club, that's what I said initially.
		
Click to expand...

But how would that work.  We'd be handing the gizmo around between us?  Nice idea but just no need for it.   

When I see someone selling the idea on the Dragon's Den and a Dragon goes for it then I'll maybe change my mind..


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But how would that work.  We'd be handing the gizmo around between us?  Nice idea but just no need for it.  

When I see someone selling the idea on the Dragon's Den and a Dragon goes for it then I'll maybe change my mind..
		
Click to expand...

I figured one person could enter all four scores for their. Would need a way to verify the score-enterer wasn't fiddling his own scores though I suppose. Maybe you need two devices per group.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

When something or someone becomes redundant, what it or they provide is no longer required - it is not that it or they can be replaced by something else that does the same job more cheaply with few, if any, additional benefits 

It's taken me this long to get around to the idea that I will (probably) buy a GPS or laser gizmo, for I did not accept the *need* for such a device.  But today I can see that it would be useful to me in some circumstances; that it will provide me with a *benefit *that I cannot simply and quickly glean from what I can see with my own two eyes.


----------



## backwoodsman (Aug 12, 2019)

Personally, don't actually see a need to ditch the card & pencil, but have to say that as of now, am neither for nor against doing it by "technology".

But a question...  I have a smartphone, so no issue with loading a suitable app. (We'll cross the bridge of me not being able to see my damn screen in daylight when we have to).  So whose score am I recording & entering into the app? Mine or my F/C's?  (obviously, as of now, it's his card I've got in my pocket). 

And a secondary question,; when it comes to "submitting" the score (or whatever will be the phrase) who submits what?  Does my F/C submit my score? Or does he send me a copy, which I  then submit?  Or do I  do everything myself - ie record my own score, verify it & submit it?  If this latter, seems very easily open to abuse?


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 12, 2019)

The Fader said:



			During the height of the space race in the 1960s, legend has it, NASA scientists realized that pens could not function in space. They needed to figure out another way for the astronauts to write things down. So they spent years and millions of taxpayer dollars to develop a pen that could put ink to paper without gravity. But their crafty Soviet counterparts, so the story goes, simply handed their cosmonauts pencils.

I believe this may well be an urban myth - but you get my point!!
		
Click to expand...

The last line was ,after spending all that money the humble biro worked perfectly as it dosnt need gravity.
So like this thread spend loads of money fixing a problem that dosnt exist.
What we going to say in the future. â€œ I go to pieces when I get a digital scoring recorder in my handsâ€?.?


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 12, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Personally, don't actually see a need to ditch the card & pencil, but have to say that as of now, am neither for nor against doing it by "technology".

But a question...  I have a smartphone, so no issue with loading a suitable app. (We'll cross the bridge of me not being able to see my damn screen in daylight when we have to).  So whose score am I recording & entering into the app? Mine or my F/C's?  (obviously, as of now, it's his card I've got in my pocket).

And a secondary question,; when it comes to "submitting" the score (or whatever will be the phrase) who submits what?  Does my F/C submit my score? Or does he send me a copy, which I  then submit?  Or do I  do everything myself - ie record my own score, verify it & submit it?  If this latter, seems very easily open to abuse?
		
Click to expand...

This is what I was thinking earlier. If players are running the app on their own phones, it would have to be set up with a server so all players can login, then the competition sec or somebody has entered the groups in, so the app can decide who is recording whose score within the app that day.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 12, 2019)

The obvious answer is to have a screen on each tee.
When you complete the hole you all put your score in the screen witnessed by your marker then carry on.
This is sent back to the main hub in the clubhouse.
It would have the benefit of showing who the slow playing groups are as it records your scores and time on each hole.
But would have to be waterproof ,vandal proof ,fireproof, and everything else proof where I play.
Or just a card given to each player.

This would take footfall from the pro shop and affect business imo.


----------



## jim8flog (Aug 12, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The obvious answer is to have a screen on each tee.
When you complete the hole you all put your score in the screen witnessed by your marker then carry on.
This is sent back to the main hub in the clubhouse.
It would have the benefit of showing who the slow playing groups are as it records your scores and time on each hole.
But would have to be waterproof ,vandal proof ,fireproof, and everything else proof where I play.
Or just a card given to each player.

This would take footfall from the pro shop and affect business imo.
		
Click to expand...

 I agree, the device remaining in situ would be a problem on a lot of courses I have played at.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			IT ain't broke, why fix it.

.
		
Click to expand...


You mean like before remote controls for TV's or before mobile phones, nothing wrong with phone boxes and what about following overhead direction signs on motorways, how dare they bring in sat navs and what could possible be wrong with the 150 marker post on the side of the fairway, why would anyone need a watch or rangefinder when we have them.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just Make digital scoring available via an app for those who want.
Easy
		
Click to expand...

Someone has electromagnetic hypersensitivity syndrome (EHS). How do we score now?


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah in time we will wonder why we ever used a crappy pencil and card
		
Click to expand...

In later generation long after we've gone they will be laughing at the very thought....they used to do what ??


----------



## JamesR (Aug 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			What if you are filling out your paper scorecard and a bolt of lightning strikes it and sets it on fire?

You would then have no way of recording and returning a score!
		
Click to expand...

You just fill in another card when you get out of hospital ðŸ™„


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£some of the replies are plain ridiculous .

Just Make digital scoring available via an app for those who want.
Easy
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not that â€œeasyâ€ though is it - you now have created more work for the Handicap Sec because you have two different methods of entering the scores - in one group say just one wants to use online then other the nice simple paper method itâ€™s not a simple thing to do. 

By just saying itâ€™s easy doesnâ€™t actually mean it is easy to do. 

So If Iâ€™m right you still havenâ€™t answered 

What is the benefit of doing it online compared to the scorecard that makes the cost implications worthwhile - what is the real world benefit.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s not that â€œeasyâ€ though is it - you now have created more work for the Handicap Sec because you have two different methods of entering the scores - in one group say just one wants to use online then other the nice simple paper method itâ€™s not a simple thing to do.

By just saying itâ€™s easy doesnâ€™t actually mean it is easy to do.

So If Iâ€™m right you still havenâ€™t answered

What is the benefit of doing it online compared to the scorecard that makes the cost implications worthwhile - what is the real world benefit.
		
Click to expand...

...and if you can have eGizmo as an _alternative _to pencil and card, then one of the 'benefits' claimed for eGizmo - viz - live scoring and leaderboard - is lost.


----------



## CliveW (Aug 12, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I wouldn't have thought you make the golfers buy the devices. The cost of them would surely be taken on by the club, and they keep the devices locked up somewhere between rounds.
		
Click to expand...

We have at least 70 tee times per day per course that equates to 210 tee times and if all slots are taken could amount to 840 players. That would be a lot of chargers to plug in if you could find enough sockets to plug them in to!!!


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 12, 2019)

This will be in place within 3 years. Great idea. I cannot understand the negativity towards it. I would not have a live leader board though. We had a p[rblem with that at my last place. Player out in the afternoon wouldn't bother to play in the comp if a good score was already in. THey'd just chuck the balls up and have a knock


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 12, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			In later generation long after we've gone they will be laughing at the very thought....they used to do what ??
		
Click to expand...

Yes just like the Egyptians .
If it was good enough for them why change.
You will get people who â€œdonâ€™t want toâ€ no matter what.
I hate mobile phones.


----------



## trevor (Aug 12, 2019)

I can remember using a slate and hammer and chisel for scoring, boy was I glad when cards and pencils were invented.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 12, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I would not have a live leader board though.
		
Click to expand...

HDID has live scoring, first thing I check after my round, though I do play early but enjoy reading seeing the scores come in.


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You mean like before remote controls for TV's or before mobile phones, nothing wrong with phone boxes and what about following overhead direction signs on motorways, how dare they bring in sat navs and what could possible be wrong with the 150 marker post on the side of the fairway, why would anyone need a watch or rangefinder when we have them.
		
Click to expand...

Oh i like my watch. But i know how to use it. Glance at watch, 170 yds. Forum wedge, bang and left 100 yards short. ðŸ‘


----------



## Jamesbrown (Aug 12, 2019)

For our Betterballs and am ams we use an app called golf genius. Itâ€™s all linked into the shop tv. 

For stroke play we use the traditional lead and papyrus.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 12, 2019)

The conclusion to all this technology is just send your robot to play for you and stay in bed.
Technology is a good thing but it dosnt have to replace everything!


----------



## HampshireHog (Aug 13, 2019)

Weâ€™ve been looking at the IG live scoring as a club.  Personally, Iâ€™m not interested in it.  You still need to fill in a physical card and confirm your score on the club terminals. Frankly, Iâ€™ve got enough going on with my golf that I donâ€™t need to worry about anyone elseâ€™s score.


----------



## Slab (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think GPS devices are getting cheaper or more expensive?

8 years ago a basic one was around Â£150 - equivalent is now around Â£250

That device you suggest is lovely , right now they cost around Â£1k to put into buggies , a smaller one is around Â£500 - so  every member will need one - who pays for  it ? Even if itâ€™s just 200 numbers thatâ€™s nearly Â£10k for something which changes what exactly ? Replaced a bit of paper and pencil which prob cost around 10pence

For the same price as one of those devices you have a years worth of scorecards.

All the technology does exist and right now golfers can chose if they want to use it because itâ€™s not cheap

One of the biggest hurdles in golf is cost - one of the biggest things the clubs have to juggle is cost so what does adding these devices do for the sport beyond bringing up the cost ?
Decades away from making a electronic device cheaper than a paper scorecard and pencil.

And then the expectation that every single golfer is â€œtech savvyâ€ - just go to a golf club during a Comp and see how many struggle with just taping numbers on a big PSI and see how many give up - average around 20 per Comp - and people think it will be easier for them to use an even smaller screen ?!
		
Click to expand...

Honestly you're so fixated on thinking up (any) reasons against change its preventing you giving it fair consideration 

200 devices!  Golf clubs don't have 200 buggy's do they, because 200 players cant play at the same time. 
So as a minimum just one per group would do wouldn't it, so to double the capacity of groups on a course at any one time then its less than 40 devices (that's even assuming that a bespoke device is the most cost effective over apps etc, I just presented it as an option)
Basic tablets/mobile handsets are getting knocked out for way way less than Â£500 a unit, jeez 3 years ago I bought a brand new LG g4 smartphone for Â£79, trade price will be way less but there's other options if you are only prepared to consider it...

What about this; some forward thinking gal/bloke realises that older smartphones (using much of their existing processors necessary to function as a golf scorecard unit) can be reconditioned and configured to do much of what I suggested. Costs would be slashed. There are literally millions of unused smartphone handsets that could be adapted and not just for golf courses, (you'd probably even get a gov grant for the business because you're recycling!) 

I know I'm wasting my time typing this but hey ho


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

Slab said:



			Honestly you're so fixated on thinking up (any) reasons against change its preventing you giving it fair consideration

200 devices!  Golf clubs don't have 200 buggy's do they, because 200 players cant play at the same time.
So as a minimum just one per group would do wouldn't it, so to double the capacity of groups on a course at any one time then its less than 40 devices (that's even assuming that a bespoke device is the most cost effective over apps etc, I just presented it as an option)
		
Click to expand...

Each player is required by Rules of Golf to have a Scorecard - so at a big comp where its 180 plus people entering then its a device each , unless you think one person should hold all the cards ? Or did you propose handing the device aorund between the group whilst they are playing - i can imagine that will help with pace of play. 

So 200 hundred would be about right for a small club of around 400 playing members - some clubs have two courses- thats double the number again .




			Basic tablets/mobile handsets are getting knocked out for way way less than Â£500 a unit, jeez 3 years ago I bought a brand new LG g4 smartphone for Â£79, trade price will be way less but there's other options if you are only prepared to consider it...

What about this; some forward thinking gal/bloke realises that older smartphones (using much of their existing processors necessary to function as a golf scorecard unit) can be reconditioned and configured to do much of what I suggested. Costs would be slashed. There are literally millions of unused smartphone handsets that could be adapted and not just for golf courses, (you'd probably even get a gov grant for the business because you're recycling!)

I know I'm wasting my time typing this but hey ho
		
Click to expand...



But you didnt say "basic" though did you - you showed a picture of the buggy tablet ( which is a Â£1k ) and then suggested a smaller one to do 

*Why couldnâ€™t this device be, handheld, pocket sized, weather proof, battery powered. Loaded with Rules app, local rules, ball search timer, halfway house snack pre-order software, GPS pace of play warnings, multiplayer scorecard (with safeguards over inputting), player handicap stroke information, hole distance GPS, leader boards, matchplay scoring. Able to be remotely locked if not returned on day of use, contact alerts with clubhouse for medical emergencies, anti-glare touchscreen, able to download 40,000 courses and a dozen other things
*

And you think that can be done cheap ? A basic GPS which does half that is close to Â£300 

So when you comapre it to roughly 30,000 scorecards ( which will last 3-5 years )  at about Â£1k its clear to see what the winner is in regards cost and ease of use , plus quicker to use , safer for the environment , use in all weather , use for comp and social play , 

Its really hard to find a reason that makes something better than the good old paper and be cost effective


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What highest number of people you can get on your course at any one time ?
Is it 200....?
Come on, stop making stuff up just to try and force your point.
		
Click to expand...

Well for big events its prob around each hole will have a group on the tee , one on the fairway and then one on the green at any one time , if you take away the par 3's thats minus 4 groups so its 40 - 50 groups on the course during the peak period of a comp ( tee times are from 06:30 through to 16:30 ) - so if you go for the lowest of around 40 groups - playing in 3 balls thats 120 golfers , if in 4 balls thats 160 golfers, but if its closer to 50 groups and yes we have had that during things like Captains Day , Presidents Putter etc then you are hitting 200 golfers if in 4 balls or 150 if in 3 balls. 

But even if its just 100 golfers thats 100 devices at say Â£250 a device - so thats Â£25k layout over how much for a scorecard 

So tell me how its more cost effective 

You just appear to want to dismiss others but yet you still havent provided what benefits removing the paper scorecard and bringing in a device has that makes it worth the cost. I guess you cant think of any


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 13, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			HDID has live scoring, first thing I check after my round, though I do play early but enjoy reading seeing the scores come in.
		
Click to expand...

Yep so did I, but as I say, the afternoon lot would check before playing to see if a good score was already in. If it was they didn't play in the comp.


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well for big events its prob around each hole will have a group on the tee , one on the fairway and then one on the green at any one time , if you take away the par 3's thats minus 4 groups so its 40 - 50 groups on the course during the peak period of a comp ( tee times are from 06:30 through to 16:30 ) - so if you go for the lowest of around 40 groups - playing in 3 balls thats 120 golfers , if in 4 balls thats 160 golfers, but if its closer to 50 groups and yes we have had that during things like Captains Day , Presidents Putter etc then you are hitting 200 golfers if in 4 balls or 150 if in 3 balls.

But even if its just 100 golfers thats 100 devices at say Â£250 a device - so thats Â£25k layout over how much for a scorecard

So tell me how its more cost effective

You just appear to want to dismiss others but yet you still havent provided what benefits removing the paper scorecard and bringing in a device has that makes it worth the cost. I guess you cant think of any
		
Click to expand...

heard of smart phones? Golf apps already have a leader board facility in built, well the one I use has. Technology is already available and ready to use. Problems problems everywhere eh? Did you attempt to block pc's in the work place?


----------



## Slab (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Each player is required by Rules of Golf to have a Scorecard* - so at a big comp where its 180 plus people entering then its a device each , unless you think one person should hold all the cards ? Or did you propose handing the device aorund between the group whilst they are playing - i can imagine that will help with pace of play.

So 200 hundred would be about right for a small club of around 400 playing members - some clubs have two courses- thats double the number again .





But you didnt say "basic" though did you - you showed a picture of the buggy tablet ( which is a Â£1k ) and then suggested a smaller one to do

*Why couldnâ€™t this device be, handheld, pocket sized, weather proof, battery powered. Loaded with Rules app, local rules, ball search timer, halfway house snack pre-order software, GPS pace of play warnings, multiplayer scorecard (with safeguards over inputting), player handicap stroke information, hole distance GPS, leader boards, matchplay scoring. Able to be remotely locked if not returned on day of use, contact alerts with clubhouse for medical emergencies, anti-glare touchscreen, able to download 40,000 courses and a dozen other things*


And you think that can be done cheap ? A basic GPS which does half that is close to Â£300

So when you comapre it to roughly 30,000 scorecards ( which will last 3-5 years )  at about Â£1k its clear to see what the winner is in regards cost and ease of use , plus quicker to use , safer for the environment , use in all weather , use for comp and social play ,

Its really hard to find a reason that makes something better than the good old paper and be cost effective
		
Click to expand...

See this is exactly why its so difficult to converse with you. You take a point and make it absolute. You're effectively saying the R&A would resist or are incapable of changing this rule to keep pace should technology one day offer a popular cost effective alternative to a paper scorecard. In reality what the current rule says is just not a factor because if needed it will change (just as it has for DMDs) & here's the thing... you _know_ this to be true, so why even bring it up!
And for some reason you cant even imagine a 4-ball handing over a single device between them on the next tee box to enter a score as others are teeing off & moreover you actually see it as somehow slowing the game down. I'd give you credit for being more imaginative than that

The price will be driven by what the market will bear (a microwave oven in the 80's cost Â£500 now its Â£50)

I have no idea if club owned devices will be the future or if it'll simply be an app as someone else suggested or something else entirely we haven't considered yet. I don't know if it'll be 5 years from now or 20 but change will happen
Individual players (even walkers) will have their pace of play electronically monitored, technology is already rolling into everything we do (& that may not always be a good thing) but there's not much chance of stopping it

I enjoy reading & resisted the technology for years. Now every single day I listen to one digital book in my car and read another on my kindle each night. I haven't picked up a 'real' book in years so when we're talking about basic simple functions like a card/pencil, it doesn't get more basic than reading the printed word.. and its disappearing fast whether I want it to or not

One day @Crow will be adding a paper based scorecard and lead pencil to his hickory clubs & leather golf bag while most others have GPS pace chips in their shoes and electronic scorecards


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Because there is no point talking to you,  you're fixated on using made up  numbers to force home your,  point of view . Youre relentless.
		
Click to expand...

I have countered your point and still you fail to tell us all what is the benefit that means the cost is effective over the simple pencil and paper - it seems to be the mode from you , when challenged about the opinion you then deflect onto the person. 



Slab said:



			See this is exactly why its so difficult to converse with you. You take a point and make it absolute. You're effectively saying the R&A would resist or are incapable of changing this rule to keep pace *should technology one day offer a popular cost effective alternative to a paper scorecard.* In reality what the current rule says is just not a factor because if needed it will change (just as it has for DMDs) & here's the thing... you _know_ this to be true, so why even bring it up!
And for some reason you cant even imagine a 4-ball handing over a single device between them on the next tee box to enter a score as others are teeing off & moreover you actually see it as somehow slowing the game down. I'd give you credit for being more imaginative than that
		
Click to expand...

Have you ever seen 4 people trying to use the PSI which is a 24 inch screen , 80% of the issue with have are people struggling with the PSI and thats supposed to be simple , imagine if just one key entry goes a bit wrong on one scorecard and you then have people huddled round this one device - already seen it happen with charity days when they use VPAR 

Is there a cost effective alternative to the paper scorecard ? I would suggest there isnt so why would the R&A even look at it when the current syste, works very well with very little issues , its not something that is being driven by the pro game , i dont recall any pace of play issues , any administration issues because of the simple pencil and paper.




			the price right now for golf equipment goes up - it doesnt go down , GPS , Lazer , game golf etc etc all goes up

The price will be driven by what the market will bear (a microwave oven in the 80's cost Â£500 now its Â£50)

I have no idea if club owned devices will be the future or if it'll simply be an app as someone else suggested or something else entirely we haven't considered yet. I don't know if it'll be 5 years from now or 20 but change will happen
Individual players (even walkers) will have their pace of play electronically monitored, technology is already rolling into everything we do (& that may not always be a good thing) but there's not much chance of stopping it

I enjoy reading & resisted the technology for years. Now every single day I listen to one digital book in my car and read another on my kindle each night. I haven't picked up a 'real' book in years so when we're talking about basic simple functions like a card/pencil, it doesn't get more basic than reading the printed word.. and its disappearing fast whether I want it to or not

One day @Crow will be adding a paper based scorecard and lead pencil to his hickory clubs & leather golf bag while most others have GPS pace chips in their shoes and electronic scorecards
		
Click to expand...

Golf is a simple game at the end of the day - people go out hit the ball , write their score down , enter their card and go home - a simple scorecard and humble does that job very well without any additional cost being required. 

Lots of sports use the simple bit of paper - why ? because it works and not everything is enhanced by using technology , many sports can survive very well without the crutch of technology -there is still a fair percentage of the world that are happy with the simple things in life working. Golf doesnt need to introduce technology to make it better - some may think its "easier" but then they prob are surrounded by technology in their life and cant survive without it - suspect they are in the minority. 

that humble bit of pencil and scorecard works very well - its cheap , failsafe , basic but does the job excellent - until there is something in place that enhances writing down 18 scores and is cheaper then golf will continue to use that pencil and scorecard and wont suffer because of the lack of technology


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Yep so did I, but as I say, the afternoon lot would check before playing to see if a good score was already in.* If it was they didn't play in the comp*.
		
Click to expand...

Surely this simply undermines the validity of the competition and knackers the CSS?  One reason I *never* look at a leader board (when we have one) before I go out.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well for big events its prob around each hole will have a group on the tee , one on the fairway and then one on the green at any one time , if you take away the par 3's thats minus 4 groups so its 40 - 50 groups on the course during the peak period of a comp ( tee times are from 06:30 through to 16:30 ) - so if you go for the lowest of around 40 groups - playing in 3 balls thats 120 golfers , if in 4 balls thats 160 golfers, but if its closer to 50 groups and yes we have had that during things like Captains Day , Presidents Putter etc then you are hitting 200 golfers if in 4 balls or 150 if in 3 balls.

But even if its just 100 golfers thats 100 devices at say Â£250 a device - so thats Â£25k layout over how much for a scorecard

So tell me how its more cost effective

You just appear to want to dismiss others but yet you still havent provided what benefits removing the paper scorecard and bringing in a device has that makes it worth the cost. I guess you cant think of any
		
Click to expand...

Where are you getting Â£250 a device?? A Kindle for example is about Â£70, and a device with only a simple scorecard app loaded on it wouldn't be anymore complicated than that.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have countered your point and *still you fail to tell us all what is the benefit that means the cost is effective over the simple pencil and paper *- it seems to be the mode from you , when challenged about the opinion you then deflect onto the person...

Lots of sports use the simple bit of paper - why ? because it works and not everything is enhanced by using technology , many sports can survive very well without the crutch of technology -there is still a fair percentage of the world that are happy with the simple things in life working. *Golf doesnt need to introduce technology to make it better - some may think its "easier" but then they prob are surrounded by technology in their life and cant survive without it - suspect they are in the minority.*

*that humble bit of pencil and scorecard works very well - its cheap , failsafe , basic but does the job excellent - until there is something in place that enhances writing down 18 scores and is cheaper then golf will continue to use that pencil and scorecard and wont suffer because of the lack of technology*

Click to expand...

*This *is heaps...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I've said what id like to see on multiple occasions Phil.
Yet you keep coming back  with some old guff about hundreds of devices and thousands of pounds.
Give it a rest mate.
		
Click to expand...

Yes you want two systems to be running at the same time - so that means the Handicap committee will need to first go through the paper cards and then go through the "electronic" cards - 

you also have the issue that one person in the group uses paper and one wants to use electronic - which do you use

the marker doesnt have a device to use and leaves his phone in the car , how will he do your scorecard ?

and you will have to do his on paper ? or will you refuse because you want to do it on your phone and app ?

But then you will no doubt dismiss those issues

Have you thought about what you want affecting the whole field ? i suspect you havent 

You see not every idea is a winner - i have sat through multiple meetings and presentations with companies like IG and CS about these sort of things and its not something they are really pushing , there is mobile scoring which allows you to sit on your mobile in the bar and enter your score into the system without using the PSI - seen issues with that and its supposed to be simple

I can say with a lot of confidence that the use of the paper and scorecard will not be going anywhere for a significant period of time.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I thought everyone was only playing for handicaps and the win was irrelevant.
		
Click to expand...

Don't think so. Every time I go out in a competitive setting I go out to win - though sometimes after two holes that objective might change to scoring inside the buffer


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes you want two systems to be running at the same time - so that means the Handicap committee will need to first go through the paper cards and then go through the "electronic" cards -

you also have the issue that one person in the group uses paper and one wants to use electronic - which do you use

the marker doesnt have a device to use and leaves his phone in the car , how will he do your scorecard ?

and you will have to do his on paper ? or will you refuse because you want to do it on your phone and app ?

But then you will no doubt dismiss those issues

Have you thought about what you want affecting the whole field ? i suspect you havent

You see not every idea is a winner - i have sat through multiple meetings and presentations with companies like IG and CS about these sort of things and its not something they are really pushing , there is mobile scoring which allows you to sit on your mobile in the bar and enter your score into the system without using the PSI - seen issues with that and its supposed to be simple

I can say with a lot of confidence that the use of the paper and scorecard will not be going anywhere for a significant period of time.
		
Click to expand...

....aaand...when you have a mix of eGizmo and card the eGizmo 'benefit' of having a 'live' leaderboard cannot happen.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 13, 2019)

I put this scenario to the club captain and general manager as they happened to be together. They could see a situation in a decade or so where DMD devices and incorporated scoring devices are easily accessible and the latter would be able to feed into the club system to register a score. They did however think that while cost will drop in the same way much other tech has, the price would still be an issue and that as a club they would probably only buy a dozen or so to hire in the pro shop. The GM did think (more so than the captain) that there is a market for this but both agreed that for the foreseeable they can't see any reason in terms of investment and cost to do away with a scorecard. You can never say never, but I'd be surprised if electronic score recording has done away with paper and card in the next twenty years totally.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Where are you getting Â£250 a device?? A Kindle for example is about Â£70, and a device with only a simple scorecard app loaded on it wouldn't be anymore complicated than that.
		
Click to expand...

even at Â£70 thats still nowwhere near the level of cost you have for a scorecard is it ? 

what is the point in having something that does something exactly the same at more than ten times the cost - scorecard is how much - 10p at most ?


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			even at Â£70 thats still nowwhere near the level of cost you have for a scorecard is it ?

what is the point in having something that does something exactly the same at more than ten times the cost - scorecard is how much - 10p at most ?
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea what the cost is of continually reprinting scorecards, I don't run a golf club do I? But I would say you only have to buy the devices once and they should last several years, which may offset against the cost of reprinting new cards regularly.


----------



## DRW (Aug 13, 2019)

Never get the black/white looking at things.

It will transition in over time, first off you will be allowed to do either, then in due course back to only one method of entering your score.

You can fight the change, but it will happen whether 'you' like it or not.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 13, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I have no idea what the cost is of continually reprinting scorecards, I don't run a golf club do I? But I would say you only have to buy the devices once and they should last several years, which may offset against the cost of reprinting new cards regularly.
		
Click to expand...

If a club is savvy then it would be re-negotiating the print costs on a regular basis but I suggest the amount printed per order is significant as in most cases the information isn't going to change and there must be cots breaks per '000 ordered. I am sure in years to come when we have a DMD/scorecard/app etc as the norm and units cost a reasonable then many will switch to the new method. I can't see it happening soon though and simply can't see clubs investing in a system if there isn't a need to.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I have no idea what the cost is of continually reprinting scorecards, I don't run a golf club do I? But I would say you only have to buy the devices once and they should last several years, which may offset against the cost of reprinting new cards regularly.
		
Click to expand...

You dont have to run a golf club to be able to think 

But here you go 

our last run was for about 30k scorecards which last around 3 years and cost the club approx Â£1k which is about 3pence a card - ours is a basic card , for course maps and extra sponership it goes up to about 10-20 pence

I think its clear which is the more cost effective and until the technology does become more cost effective for clubs and golfers then paper and pencil it is


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I'd stop feeding him.
		
Click to expand...

I mean he has a point in a sense, he's just spouting made up numbers to prove it. In essence, this will only ever happen if it's cost effective for the clubs.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I put this scenario to the club captain and general manager as they happened to be together. They could see a situation in a decade or so where DMD devices and incorporated scoring devices are easily accessible and the latter would be able to feed into the club system to register a score. They did however think that while cost will drop in the same way much other tech has, the price would still be an issue and that as a club they would probably only buy a dozen or so to hire in the pro shop. The GM did think (more so than the captain) that there is a market for this but both agreed that for the foreseeable they can't see any reason in terms of investment and cost to do away with a scorecard. You can never say never, but *I'd be surprised if electronic score recording has done away with paper and card in the next twenty years totally*.
		
Click to expand...

If you watch a tv show from 20 years ago and look how backward everything looks now, the tech being used etc then you can not really put a timescale on this so far in advance. Tech is progressing so quickly year on year now that it will not really be an issue shortly. Personally I tend to think a simple app is the answer to this rather than individual devices and apps are relatively simple to knock out if the will is there. I happen to agree that this is not going to happen tomorrow or next year but it will start to creep in shortly and it wil be way faster than 20yrs away.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			the cost can be pretty negligible,  it's just getting clouded by this constant inference that a club will need to supply hundreds of devices,  which clearly isn't true .
I'd 100% love to see it trialled and if it doesn't work out then that's fine.
		
Click to expand...

...but to what benefit?  Other than to sate the appetite of tech-lovers.  Tell me a benefit relating to recording your score - just one ill do - that an eGizmo has over a card and pencil.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...but to what benefit?  Other than to sate the appetite of tech-lovers.  Tell me a benefit relating to recording your score - just one - that an eGizmo has over a card and pencil.
		
Click to expand...

I think it would save the club/comp sec a lot of time in card entering by automating the process. So for clubs with only a small committee it could be a great time-saving device.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 13, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I think it would save the club/comp sec a lot of time in card entering by automating the process. So for clubs with only a small committee it could be a great time-saving device.
		
Click to expand...

If everybody in the competition field were using electronic device then I'd agree 100% but when it'll still be split between electronic and pencil then surely it's more work. Again it boils down to if/when the total transition is made


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely this simply undermines the validity of the competition and knackers the CSS?  One reason I *never* look at a leader board (when we have one) before I go out.
		
Click to expand...

I joined the afternoon crew once. bogey day. There was a -7 already in !!!! (or is it +7) anyhoo, made me aim at the flags. i was actually -6 at one point  with 6 or 7 holes to go. Ended up -5, but it changed my way of playing that day for sure. And another thing, would the Pro's not bother either. LOL. 

Back to topic. Why buy a new gadit? SMART PHONES !!!! AND APPS !!!!


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you watch a tv show from 20 years ago and look how backward everything looks now, the tech being used etc then you can not really put a timescale on this so far in advance. Tech is progressing so quickly year on year now that it will not really be an issue shortly. Personally I tend to think a simple app is the answer to this rather than individual devices and apps are relatively simple to knock out if the will is there. I happen to agree that this is not going to happen tomorrow or next year but it will start to creep in shortly and it wil be way faster than 20yrs away.
		
Click to expand...

YESSSSSSSS !!!! I'm surprised howdiddydo aren't looking at this already. They should be if they are a forward looking company.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's an eGizmo?
		
Click to expand...

it's a generic term for electronic gizmos

Still not hearing much in the way of benefits of such over a card and pencil - whether it is specific to scoring or an app on a Smart phone,

Besides - with my eyesight I'd have to be using voice input to do the score recording as text on phone screens are pretty illegible to me - in general I struggle to read the text and struggle to type.  Next you know I'd be getting told to buy a newer, bigger and better phone...no thankyou - my iPhone 5s works fine for me.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			it's a generic term for electronic gizmos

Still not hearing much in the way of benefits of such over a card and pencil - whether it is specific to scoring or an app on a Smart phone,
		
Click to expand...

Can only assume you haven't read any of the posts then?





			Besides - with my eyesight I'd have to be using voice input to do the score recording as text on phone screens are pretty illegible to me - in general I struggle to read the text and struggle to type.
		
Click to expand...

What a daft argument. The way I envision it, the device would allow you to pick what hole you're on (or even auto-advance to the next one), then have a massive keypad for you to hit '4' or '5' or '13'. I'm sure you could manage this level of data entry. Not so much 'reading and typing', more 'looking and pressing a button'.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I joined the afternoon crew once. bogey day. There was a -7 already in !!!! (or is it +7) anyhoo, made me aim at the flags. i was actually -6 at one point  with 6 or 7 holes to go. Ended up -5, but it changed my way of playing that day for sure. And another thing, would the Pro's not bother either. LOL.

Back to topic. Why buy a new gadit? SMART PHONES !!!! AND APPS !!!!
		
Click to expand...

What if you donâ€™t have a smart phone which is a situation for many golfers ?



Orikoru said:



			I think it would save the club/comp sec a lot of time in card entering by automating the process. So for clubs with only a small committee it could be a great time-saving device.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not really that time consuming at the end of the day - check a number of cards , make its signed , right handicap  etc - doesnâ€™t take too long 

Biggest issues we have is people putting in the wrong info on the PSI - even simple things like putting SB points down as gross scores. Doesnâ€™t take much for the wrong number to be pressed etc. The only issues we have with cards are not being signed


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What if you donâ€™t have a smart phone which is a situation for many golfers ?
		
Click to expand...

Then the club could invest in some cheap handheld devices with a scorecard app...

Hold on we appear to be going round in circles again!   Why does that always happen?


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 13, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I have no idea what the cost is of continually reprinting scorecards, I don't run a golf club do I? But I would say you only have to buy the devices once and they should last several years, which may offset against the cost of reprinting new cards regularly.
		
Click to expand...

Â£70 wont buy you a waterproof jacket never mind a device.
Plus chargers room to store and charge them .
Fixing a non problem


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Â£70 wont buy you a waterproof jacket never mind a device.
Plus chargers room to store and charge them .
Fixing a non problem
		
Click to expand...

Who says? Cheapest Amazon Fires at Currys are Â£50: https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/compu...32003_xx_xx/1_20/price-asc/0-60-criteria.html 
And for buying in bulk direct from a supplier I'm sure deals could be done to lower the cost per unit.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Â£70 wont buy you a waterproof jacket never mind a device.
Plus chargers room to store and charge them .
Fixing a non problem
		
Click to expand...

I happen to be in the same camp as you. Maybe I'm just turning into a grumpy middle aged man but I really don't see a need for an electronic device. I have no doubt it'll happen, but still remain to be convinced there will be 100% take up rate for an electronic version whether that an app on a phone or a stand alone device.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I happen to be in the same camp as you. Maybe I'm just turning into a grumpy middle aged man but I really don't see a need for an electronic device. I have no doubt it'll happen, but still remain to be convinced there will be 100% take up rate for an electronic version whether that an app on a phone or a stand alone device.
		
Click to expand...

...and until everyone in a comp is using one you'll not have a hole-by-hole leaderboard available - that being a new benefit (for some) that can't currently be provided.  But it's a solution to a different need - and it's not a need that is universally felt.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Because there is no point talking to you,  you're fixated on using made up  numbers to force home your,  point of view . Youre relentless.
		
Click to expand...

Hang on!

You asked him a specific question - about max # of players at any one time. He answered it perfectly reasonably (imo). but (seemingly) because you don't like the answer, you go into a hissy fit and accuse him of 'forcing home' his pov!

Seems to me IT's YOU that is 'forcing their' (blinkered) pov!! At least in this case!

Btw. My course has 9 min tee times and it takes 270 mins to play, either as a 4-ball social or 3-ball comp groups. That's 30 groups - so 90 golfers at any time.


----------



## Slab (Aug 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Hang on!

You asked him a specific question - about max # of players at any one time. He answered it perfectly reasonably (imo). but (seemingly) because you don't like the answer, you go into a hissy fit and accuse him of 'forcing home' his pov!

Seems to me IT's YOU that is 'forcing their' (blinkered) pov!! At least in this case!

Btw. *My course has 9 min tee times and it takes 270 mins to play, either as a 4-ball social or 3-ball comp groups. That's 30 groups - so 90 golfers at any time*.
		
Click to expand...

LP's course is quite different in only averaging as little as 27 scorecards used per day. If weekend comps are busy as with most courses your really talking about single figure scorecard use through the weekdays
The course capacity there is rarely achieved anyway so I can understand why a cost effective electronic card would be much further down the road for his particular situation


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I was referring to his constant quoting 1000s of pounds.

Nothing like jumping in Ill informed.
		
Click to expand...

So how much do you estimate per device?

And for, say, 120 of them? That would be the minimum needed to guarantee a full course of working devices. Seems, to me, that '1000s of pounds' is pretty appropriate!

Yep! Nothing like jumping in ill informed - from not 'doing the math'!

Of course, it would be possible - desirable even - to only have 1 device per group, so that would significantly reduce the nomber - down to 40 (say). but that still represents a couple of thousand pounds of investment that is pretty much unjustifiable imo. And it means  someone has to 'be responsible' for all the scores in the group - not particularly desirable and definitely not a reflection of how current responsibilities work!

Another aspect, that I don't believe you've considered is how it would interfaces to (ALL!) the recognised Congu authorised systems to 'upload' the actual results!! Is that another example of (you) 'jumping in ill informed'?


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
what is the point in having something that does something exactly the same at more than ten times the cost - *scorecard is how much - 10p at most* ?
		
Click to expand...

Totally with you on this one!

And scorecards need not cost anything (or can even be a source of - small - profit) if a local company can be enticed to advertise on them!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Can only assume you haven't read any of the posts then?



What a daft argument. The way I envision it, the device would allow you to pick what hole you're on (or even auto-advance to the next one), then have a massive keypad for you to hit '4' or '5' or '13'. I'm sure you could manage this level of data entry. Not so much 'reading and typing', more 'looking and pressing a button'.
		
Click to expand...

All the benefits that have been stated in previous posts seem to relate to the comp organiser and not the player - and as far as I can see most if not all of the 'benefits' to the comp organiser have been challenged.  Some benefits above and beyond the need to record a player's score on each hole have been stated for devices - but these are new nice-to-have 'needs' and nothing to do with score recording.

The only benefit I can see to using a device to record a player's score is that it won't get soggy and unusable when wet (assumin gthe device can be kept dry).  Even then - when it looks like rain I always carry one or two additional cards with me.  

And I agree - a device could certainly display the Hole Number in font big enough for me to see it, and enable me to easily swipe through numbers until I get to the score I want to enter. Though I suspect correcting mistakes might still be a bit of a fiddle and not so easily enabled simply through use of large font.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Aug 13, 2019)

*


Lord Tyrion said:



			If you watch a tv show from 20 years ago and look how backward everything looks now, the tech being used etc
		
Click to expand...

*And yet the police officers still all use notebooks, doctors still make notes, nurses still fill out charts and the RNLI still record positions using paper charts and compasses, despite all this tech. Maybe itâ€™s not all itâ€™s cracked up to be...


----------



## Slab (Aug 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet the *police *officers still all use notebooks, *doctors* still make notes, *nurses *still fill out charts and the *RNLI* still record positions using paper charts and compasses, despite all this tech. Maybe itâ€™s not all itâ€™s cracked up to be...

Click to expand...

Not exactly what you would call 'well funded' bodies though are they


----------



## patricks148 (Aug 13, 2019)

i love the way someone who wouldn't spend Â£25 on a club shirt is saying clubs should spash out on hand held devices for score enty at Â£70 a pop


----------



## Blue in Munich (Aug 13, 2019)

A


Slab said:



			Not exactly what you would call 'well funded' bodies though are they 

Click to expand...

Are they not?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're falling into the Liverpoolphil abyss.....

Clubs do not need to buy devices..
I would like to see digital scoring offered alongside card, *I already have a suitable device.*
That's all I'd like to see.
Like I said,  I'll informed.
		
Click to expand...

But you arent marking your card - your marker is , so are you going to give him your device for the round ? What if he doesnt want to use it or feel comfortable using it ? 

Its a question you have avoided


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 13, 2019)

Slab said:



			Not exactly what you would call 'well funded' bodies though are they 

Click to expand...

While they could all do with additional government funding I would say most hospitals are well funded enough and that nurses using paper charts is more about accountability and patient safety anyway.


----------



## Slab (Aug 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			While they could all do with additional government funding I would say most hospitals are well funded enough and that nurses using paper charts is more about accountability and patient safety anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Its good they've sorted that at long last, it was just two years ago there was nurse protests etc and talk of strike action, so that's a quick turnaround. Lets hope they can do the same for the doctors because it seems the pre/post/support care is already in place to have minimal waiting lists etc


----------



## ArnoldArmChewer (Aug 13, 2019)

I have just this morning been in a long debate with my Local Authority over a submitted planning application, I submitted an application via the 'electronic portal', this ended up in the LA's spam file and my application was subsequently deleted.  After my correspondence/calls the LA have admitted receiving the application by the due dates, however this illustrates just one example of technology NOT making things better, hand delivered applications were registered and a receipt provided SIMPLES.

A pencil costs thrumpence and is easily sharpened, try breathing life into a dead mobile (that is in my glovebox in any event)

Advancement DOES NOT always equate to improvement.


----------



## Jamesbrown (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No, you're making stuff up , insinuating or, call it what you like to support your  point of view.

Will simpler terms help?
I already have a device as will  those others who wish to utilise it,  there'll be no swapping of phones,  just digital cards.
		
Click to expand...

We already use live scoring via an app for our team games. Scores go direct to pro shop, Works fine. Everybody is provided with their own log in. 

The yanks can digitally sign for their strokeplay rounds if they wish via an app all linked via their GHIN numbers.  

It is coming, I would just give it 10 years here.


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Eh?
Amazingly my phone has a battery and isn't directly connected to the national grid.

I love all these reasons from the naysayers,  keep them coming.
		
Click to expand...


I'm not a naysayer happy to use technology but in this case really! have you ever tried using a touch screen phone when the screen is wet. It's near impossible. Not to mention in a deluge not only will you not be able to use the screen but you wont have an operating phone after a while due to water damage!

Are we now saying every one must have a smart phone that is waterproof, has a battery life good enough to deal with 36 holes for the better players, a screen that works when wet and is also bright enough for even the most poor sighted seniors can see i the bright sunshine.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet the police officers still all use notebooks, doctors still make notes, nurses still fill out charts and the RNLI still record positions using paper charts and compasses, despite all this tech. Maybe itâ€™s not all itâ€™s cracked up to be...

Click to expand...

Tech is not the answer to everything, I am not advocating tech to be used in everything, but it can help in many situations. In terms of this discussion, golf scorecards, you are not asking an app to read notes, understand text, it is a very simple numbers calculation that is needed, nothing more.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're falling into the Liverpoolphil abyss.....

Clubs do not need to buy devices..
I would like to see digital scoring offered alongside card, I already have a suitable device.
That's all I'd like to see.
Like I said,  I'll informed.
		
Click to expand...

Kindly explain how the digital scoring gets (up)loaded to the Club handicap system - whichever flavour that is. 

And remember that the OP is the Comp Sec and wants to save time! So a mixed system (Cards and Digital) is likely to COST time!


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No we are not saying any of that.
		
Click to expand...




uncle chop chop said:



			I'm not a naysayer happy to use technology but in this case really! have you ever tried using a touch screen phone when the screen is wet. It's near impossible. Not to mention in a deluge not only will you not be able to use the screen but you wont have an operating phone after a while due to water damage!

Are we now saying every one must have a smart phone that is waterproof, has a battery life good enough to deal with 36 holes for the better players, a screen that works when wet and is also bright enough for even the most poor sighted seniors can see i the bright sunshine.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds exactly like some of the ideas muted. You're not the first to raise concerns but no doubt the dogmatic "this must happen as the way forward" brigade will give you the same arguments (separate devices, waterproof phones etc)


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No we are not saying any of that.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty sure through this whole thread when the question of cost came up you have just said "use your smart phone" and "I already have a suitable device"

You say people are uniformed, well inform us then of this magical smart phone you have that works with a wet screen. My company would love to know as we have to literally spend thousands a year to buy bog standard pieces of technology that work in the rain.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How in depth do you want? Do I need to explain layer 2 , 3 networking etc ?
...
		
Click to expand...

No. I've worked in IT since 1976, so know a bit about it! I was querying the 'mechanics' of the process! 
You still haven't explained how the set of data captured from the 'devices' gets loaded to the clubs Handicap system - which could be any of the many ones approved by Congu.



robinthehood said:



			...
And how do you surmise it will be slower for the sec?
		
Click to expand...

I used the phrase '*likely* to cost time'. Using mixed/multiple methods is fraught with potential pitfalls, especially for 'amateurs'!


----------



## JamesR (Aug 13, 2019)

I think I've found the answer - more tech'y than a scorecard and you don't need to have a smartphone


----------



## USER1999 (Aug 13, 2019)

Of all the things in golf that need modernising, or rule changes, this is 100% the most pointless, least important, non problem solving one.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Read the thread,  get informed and then ask questions.
That's it.
		
Click to expand...

Cop out!

I've asked (more than once) about how the captured results/'scorecards' get loaded to the Club database (in whatever Supplier's. Please either answer that question, point me to a post that does or admit you don't know!


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're wasting your time. Their minds are made up.
		
Click to expand...

Can I keep my device in a black sock.?
I need reading glasses for anything like this, but can just about see a card in decent light .
But keep a monocle in my bag for poor light conditions.


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I'd no sooner let my phone get wet than I would my scorecard.
It's a non issue.
		
Click to expand...

Its not about worrying about it getting wet, that's your choice, its the fact the screen works on conductivity and wont work in the rain properly. So your proposal is useless.

So far people have proposed a kindle like solution at around Â£70 or 700 rounds of golf on a 10p scorecard. Although this technology isn't usable in the rain, or waterproof, or shock resistant so will need some extra work to bring it up to scratch. A basic android phone cost Â£80 make it waterproof, shockproof and usable in the rain its at least Â£299, just look at the spec on the CAT phones that are available and they don't work all that great.

We have had people saying its for environmental reasons, which is massive crock of s*&T. Scorecards from sustainable paper sources have little ecological impact. Lithium batteries used for these devices (no one has invented yet) are seriously bad for the environment.

Card and pencils are outdated. Tried and tested doesn't mean outdated it just means it stands the test of time and until something better comes along then it should remain. 

I'm not against technology, but this just seems knee jerk. 

If we are giving out devices ten does the pro shop have to be open from first tee until the last group comes in to collect all devices and then charge for the next day? Who's installing all these power pojnts etc.

It's not currently feasible to make the swap its financially, logistically and technologically flawed currently. Something to work towards maybe, something ready to be implemented now? Not a chance.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I happen to be in the same camp as you. Maybe I'm just turning into a grumpy middle aged man but I really don't see a need for an electronic device. I have no doubt it'll happen, but still remain to be convinced there will be 100% take up rate for an electronic version whether that an app on a phone or a stand alone device.
		
Click to expand...

Who said I was grumpy and middle aged?
Iâ€™ll have you know I resemble that remark.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			A


Are they not? 

Click to expand...

Boris will sort it for us.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I don't even  know what you're asking.
Are you talking networks?
APIs?
UX?
?
I mean I've been clear on what my thoughts are through out, yet people keep jumping in, like you ,with complete total bull.
		
Click to expand...

No, the networking etc stuff to capture results for a competition is fine. I'm talking about the database containing all the Club's Course details, Competitions, Member's Details, Previous Competition Scores, Competition Results (Rankings etc), their (current) handicaps etc. These are maintained by various competing comnpanies, certifird by Congu. There is, currently, a bit more than simply capturing a competition's set of scores!

Capturing the data for a single competition via an app is fine - but that seems to be as far as you have thought it through! For the current setup, have you considered how CSS is worked out and members handicaps are updated from the (captured) results? And how the likes of ESRs are triggered? And 'Away Scores'? Mind you, it'll all going to change when the World Handicap System is implemented....but simply having an App to capture a single competition's isn't going to be enough!


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just as  well I'm  not advocating any of the above.
		
Click to expand...

You're advocating using a free app on a phone, and as I've just highlighted that's a mute argument as phones screens won't work properly in the rain. So you have basically banged the drum for a useless suggestion.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 13, 2019)

Since people have said in other threads about players stealing range or even in play balls, why does anyone not think that people wouldnt steal these wonderful fully waterproof Â£1 smart devices that the club is going to supply everyone?

It was said this morning on the radio that in a decade or 2 smart phone and technology would be a huge enviromental problem....so lets add to it, or just chop 1 tree down and make enough pencils for the whole of the UK who play the game for longer than a battery lasts.


----------



## chrisd (Aug 13, 2019)

Whilst I was ambling round 9 holes on my own I stopped and chatted to a mate who was on the practice area, he said he'd never seen his own swing so I videoed it for him on his own phone. He had no idea how the video worked, how would he be able to score on a device for possibly 4 players?


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			My phone works fine in the rain. You should probably upgrade. If it's that heavy I'll wait till I'm under my brolly or it eases up, same as I do currently.  If my phone screen gets wet I wipe it dry.....If my card gets wet it's possibly my ruined
		
Click to expand...

WOW so you defy science then, crack on pal. you must be amazing in every sense of the word.


----------



## NWJocko (Aug 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No, the networking etc stuff to capture results for a competition is fine. I'm talking about the database containing all the Club's Course details, Competitions, Member's Details, Previous Competition Scores, Competition Results (Rankings etc), their (current) handicaps etc. These are maintained by various competing comnpanies, certifird by Congu. There is, currently, a bit more than simply capturing a competition's set of scores!

Capturing the data for a single competition via an app is fine - but that seems to be as far as you have thought it through! *For the current setup, have you considered how CSS is worked out and members handicaps are updated from the (captured) results? And how the likes of ESRs are triggered? And 'Away Scores'?* Mind you, it'll all going to change when the World Handicap System is implemented....but simply having an App to capture a single competition's isn't going to be enough!
		
Click to expand...

All this stuff would be exactly the same as it is now, calculated in IG/HDID/A.N.Other software package.

The issue is configuring upload(s) from a single app (I assume) into various different software packages in order to calculate CSS etc.  Once the data is in any system it's fine that's not the hurdle as I see it, more how do you get the data in in the first place (not insurmountable but already causes issues with CDH up/downloads etc so not as simple as first thought).

Suspect it will happen over time, I'm not bothered either way tbh


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

NWJocko said:



			All this stuff would be exactly the same as it is now, calculated in IG/HDID/A.N.Other software package.

The issue is configuring upload(s) from a single app (I assume) into various different software packages in order to calculate CSS etc.  Once the data is in any system it's fine that's not the hurdle as I see it, more how do you get the data in in the first place (not insurmountable but already causes issues with CDH up/downloads etc so not as simple as first thought).

Suspect it will happen over time, I'm not bothered either way tbh
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! And that (currently) requires the proprietary software folk to do some work - not something as simple as it sounds (I've some (wasted) personal experience of one of them!).

I strongly suspect, from his 'wtf' questions that while RtH may be capable of creating an app to process a competition to some extent, he hasn't go much of a clue about the 'whole' 'Club/Handicap Management' environment. VPAR has certainly shown the benefits of (and some issues with) real-time scoring! But that isn't a Congu format application!

Btw. HDID is not the base software. It's (merely?) the Internet Report Publishing (Back End) side of ClubVI (previously Club2000?). Unlike IG and HndicapMaster which are both Internet Based, the core database resides (or at least used to, as I'm rather out-of-date) on a Club PC/Server. 

But, as I stated in the reply to RtH, the change to World Handicap System will change things - a lot!


----------



## rulefan (Aug 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! And that (currently) requires the proprietary software folk to do some work - not something as simple as it sounds (I've some (wasted) personal experience of one of them!).

I strongly suspect, from his 'wtf' questions that while RtH may be capable of creating an app to process a competition to some extent, he hasn't go much of a clue about the 'whole' 'Club/Handicap Management' environment. VPAR has certainly shown the benefits of (and some issues with) real-time scoring! But that isn't a Congu format application!

Btw. HDID is not the base software. It's (merely?) the Internet Report Publishing (Back End) side of ClubVI (previously Club2000?). Unlike IG and HndicapMaster which are both Internet Based, the core database resides (or at least used to, as I'm rather out-of-date) on a Club PC/Server.

But, as I stated in the reply to RtH, the change to World Handicap System will change things - a lot!
		
Click to expand...

ClubV1 is 'Internet Based'.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 13, 2019)

NWJocko said:



			All this stuff would be exactly the same as it is now, calculated in IG/HDID/A.N.Other software package.

The issue is configuring upload(s) from a single app (I assume) into various different software packages in order to calculate CSS etc.  Once the data is in any system it's fine that's not the hurdle as I see it, more how do you get the data in in the first place (not insurmountable but already causes issues with CDH up/downloads etc so not as simple as first thought).

Suspect it will happen over time, I'm not bothered either way tbh
		
Click to expand...

There will no longer be a CSS calculation but a Playing Conditions Calculation which will all scores returned on that day. All appropriate scores will be uploaded to a new central system where handicap changes will be calculated and the results sent back to the clubs.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

rulefan said:



			ClubV1 is 'Internet Based'.
		
Click to expand...

I thought that might be the case - now! My experience was with Club2000 - quite a while ago!

Btw. I'm pretty certain NWJ's post was about the attributes of the current (Congu) environment, not the WHS.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Good,  maybe we can be like our US cousins and post scores direct via an app ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...




rulefan said:



			There will no longer be a CSS calculation but a Playing Conditions Calculation which will all scores returned on that day. All appropriate scores will be uploaded to a new central system where handicap changes will be calculated and the results sent back to the clubs.
		
Click to expand...

It would seem not!  Still need to have a way to (at least/perhaps only format) the base scores, then load (via the proprietary software) the returned (Post PCC) data into the Club's database.

So RtH still needs to answer my oft repeated question about loading into the proprietary system - or admit he hadn't considered that (no shame there!).


----------



## CliveW (Aug 13, 2019)

Has anyone considered this? If we do away with "hard copy" scorecards, how will a club display the course record? Will they nail one of the electric gizmos to the wall???


----------



## IainP (Aug 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...  Being 'long-sighted' with the contact lenses I wear for golf makes it difficult - even when it's dull.
		
Click to expand...

Am curious SILH, can you read the little pencil numbers okay with your lenses in?
I am close to taking some glasses out to re-adjust my sight back especially for scorecard checking.
On the phone, most of the time I can zoom/expand if I do want to look at it.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 13, 2019)

If people can keep a paper scorecard dry then they can keep a phone dry. Why cherry pick issues that are applicable to both devices?


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 13, 2019)

If we can have electronic input to replace cards. It still leaves the problem more serious problem of white calf length socks.


----------



## USER1999 (Aug 13, 2019)

My card does not get wet. I use a score card holder. If it is damp, no worries, I don't use a pencil anyway, I use a fischer AG7 biro, you know, the one that went to the moon. The one the Russians used too. It writes on anything, even in zero gravity. 

The Russians did not use pencils. They bought American AG7s.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 13, 2019)

14 pages, and folk wonder why some clubs are stuck in the dark ages, a quick browse of this topic and they might understand why.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 13, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			14 pages, and folk wonder why some clubs are stuck in the dark ages, a quick browse of this topic and they might understand why.
		
Click to expand...

You can have all the technology int he world, but sometimes the basic simple stuff is more reliable and easier........it's just that some wont accept that.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			14 pages, and folk wonder why some clubs are stuck in the dark ages, a quick browse of this topic and they might understand why.
		
Click to expand...

Is a pen and pencil dark ages now ? Or an appropriate use of equipment for the required job

Basic job at times requires just the simple basic tools.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 13, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			If we can have electronic input to replace cards. It still leaves the problem more serious problem of white calf length socks.
		
Click to expand...

My phone dosnt wear socks.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 13, 2019)

It's not that it isn't up to the job however reading through the topic the manner in which stick-in-the-muds just don't seem to want to embrace change but I guess that typical of human nature not liking change.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It's not that it isn't up to the job however reading through the topic the manner in which stick-in-the-muds just don't seem to want to embrace change but I guess that typical of human nature not liking change.
		
Click to expand...

I believe reading through the thread people would have no problems embracing change as long as it was worthwhile , improved performance and was cost effective enough to justify the requirement for the change.

Sometimes change isnâ€™t always good and is nothing but a placebo that doesnâ€™t actually provide a better service.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf the only people who won't accept are the naysayers that keep finding ever more ridiculous reasons to shoot it down.
		
Click to expand...

Or perhaps the majority are quite happy with the current card and pencil and those processing handicaps have only one process to go through. It seems only one person being obtuse when asked direct questions and not responding or failing to see the point of view of others. Why not answer these directly rather than hide behind "read the thread and educate yourself" etc. Keep banging on about how it'll all be better electronically and we're carry on in the dark ages


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Aug 14, 2019)

Posts #234 and #238 - Why hide between "how many levels" and "read the thread". Why not answer questions politely asked rather than get rude and personal like you are now when somebody poses an alternative point. I and many others simply don't see a reason for digital scoring and any benefit it provides over what we already have and that there are clearly perceived issues and costs involved that would make it prohibitive. Why uses words like BS. My post was merely asking why you seem so certain digital scoring is beneficial but won't answer questions posed to you.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 14, 2019)

Will there be special phones for elite tournaments with a tear off section so that you can compare your score with what your marker has entered for you on each hole?


----------



## SammmeBee (Aug 14, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Will there be special phones for elite tournaments with a tear off section so that you can compare your score with what your marker has entered for you on each hole? 

Click to expand...

The system would be able to flag any discrepancies between your card and theirs.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf the only people who won't accept are the naysayers that keep finding ever more ridiculous reasons to shoot it down.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we already have the simplest, most reliable method and easiest to use system already. Why complicate things with technology?


----------



## Imurg (Aug 14, 2019)

[QUOTE="robinthehood, post: 2036274, member:

Except $postcount++[/QUOTE]

Says the man with a 59 post count on this thread..
Irony meter explosion imminent


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 14, 2019)

Imurg said:



			[QUOTE="robinthehood, post: 2036274, member:

Except $postcount++
		
Click to expand...

Says the man with a 59 post count on this thread..
Irony meter explosion imminent[/QUOTE]



Yeah that right I want to catch homer .
I'd expect better from you as you don't seem the the type to post stupid digs
Looks like I was wrong


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			My phone works fine in the rain. You should probably upgrade. If it's that heavy I'll wait till I'm under my brolly or it eases up, same as I do currently.  If my phone screen gets wet I wipe it dry.....If my card gets wet it's possibly my ruined
		
Click to expand...

Ahh so now we're back to you're point. I'm alright jack as I've got plenty of money and can get the best phone. You lot keep up.

Show us this video of your phone working, I'll just do a quick Google search and link in all the articles and videos on there if phones that don't work in the rain.

You said this wouldn't cost money as everyone could just use their smart phones. Now we've all got to upgrade.

To be frank I can afford the best phones, plenty can't, and why should that have to just so you can get away form a tried and tested method that frankly still has a place.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I've answered every question  and swatted  away nonsense as it appears, *foxholer was asking some rather weird stuff about application development for which I don't ??? answers*,  but if you bother to read the thread fully you'd see this,  rather than trying to score cheap points.
		
Click to expand...

Presumably you've missed out 'have' where I've marked '???'.

If it's going to connect to the club's comp/handicap system, then there's got to be some significant 'application development' involved by the club comp/handicap system suppliers as well as development of the app (whoever it's by).
If it's NOT going to connect to the club's comp/handicap, then it's pretty pointless! All the Golf Club software I've seen already has facilities pretty close to this via PSI (just not 'in play'). If in-play software (alone!) is wanted, there's plenty already available!

And, to return to the OP's original question, this app won't actually help with the Competition Co-ordinator's task of checking 'scorecards' - a task required to ensure that comprtition participants comply with the Rules of Golf!


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Presumably you've missed out 'have' where I've marked '???'.

If it's going to connect to the club's comp/handicap system, then there's got to be some significant 'application development' involved by the club comp/handicap system suppliers as well as development of the app (whoever it's by).
If it's NOT going to connect to the club's comp/handicap, then it's pretty pointless! All the Golf Club software I've seen already has facilities pretty close to this via PSI (just not 'in play'). If in-play software (alone!) is wanted, there's plenty already available!

And, to return to the OP's original question, this app won't actually help with the Competition Co-ordinator's task of checking 'scorecards' -* a task required to ensure that comprtition participants comply with the Rules of Golf!*

Click to expand...

Not to jump on that too much, but I don't think citing the rules of golf in an argument against electronic scorecards really worked. Considering those rules were written long before tablets and smartphones were even dreamt of, I would have thought they simply need to be re-written accordingly if electronic scoring comes to pass.


----------



## DCB (Aug 14, 2019)

Let's keep it civil please gents, no need for personal insults or silly digs at other members.


----------



## richart (Aug 14, 2019)

JamesR said:



View attachment 27935


I think I've found the answer - more tech'y than a scorecard and you don't need to have a smartphone 

Click to expand...

 Well done for finding that. I thought i was going to have to give up the game as I don't own a phone.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I make assumptions that what ever system would just be an extension of an existing SaaS offering from one of the current providers in the field , eg club systems.
The clubs would not be developing anything for themselves.
How could it not help with checking cards? All the data is there and if a computer is good for something, its processing data fields, *hell I could knock out a  powershell script to do that in next to no time.*

I agree There are pros and cons to a digital card
A digital card could do away with cards submitted unsigned, incorrect scores entered pretty much non existent, cards not filled out correctly, illegible cards to name a few.
.
		
Click to expand...

May I kindly suggest then that the gentleman do so, and thus earn yourself a possible fortune in rights the world over...possibly.
Sadly on my part, I have something from Mr Helix that keeps my W H Smith 2 B implement perfect for the job.
Thankyou, but I won't be investing.


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What is wrong with you ? People are as capable of keeping a phone dry as they are a scorecard . You're just looking ever more foolish.
		
Click to expand...

I'm looking foolish, ok mate just post this video and all the substantial evidence you have for most phones working 100% effectively in the rain and I will bow to your infinite wisdom.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I make assumptions that what ever system would just be an extension of an existing SaaS offering from one of the current providers in the field , eg club systems....
		
Click to expand...

Then why do you think they (or at least 1 of them) have not done so already?


robinthehood said:



			....
How could it not help with checking cards? All the data is there and if a computer is good for something, its processing data fields, hell I could knock out a  powershell script to do that in next to no time.
...
		
Click to expand...

See my query, about why it's not already been done, above!


robinthehood said:



			...
A digital card could do away with cards submitted unsigned, *incorrect scores entered pretty much non existent*, cards not filled out correctly, illegible cards to name a few.
...
		
Click to expand...

Certainly some trivial (but 'expensive') glitches might be able to be avoided, but, as the bold bit, 'pretty much' means they'd still need to be checked for accuracy! 


robinthehood said:



			...

But like others you're going defcon 1.
		
Click to expand...

Twaddle! Why must you abuse every posted who challenges you? A simple counter-argument works best!


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Mate, I am drawing a line under this particular strand as its just a waste of time, you believe what you want to believe.
		
Click to expand...

It's not a belief it's scientific fact. You just keep on cracking on. And I assume seen as your drawing a line under this you mean metaphoricaly, seen as you wouldn't want to use a pencil to do it. 

Or is there a drawing a line under it app out there??


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Since people have said in other threads about players stealing range or even in play balls, why does anyone not think that people wouldnt steal these wonderful fully waterproof Â£1 smart devices that the club is going to supply everyone?

It was said this morning on the radio that in a decade or 2 smart phone and technology would be a huge enviromental problem....so lets add to it, or just *chop 1 tree down and make enough pencils for the whole of the UK* who play the game for longer than a battery lasts.
		
Click to expand...

No need to even consider that for as long as IKEA provide a ready supply.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Not to jump on that too much, but I don't think citing the rules of golf in an argument against electronic scorecards really worked. Considering those rules were written long before tablets and smartphones were even dreamt of, I would have thought they simply need to be re-written accordingly if electronic scoring comes to pass.
		
Click to expand...

There has just been the most significant changes to RofG for a generation (imo). Yet nothing changed relating to 'The scorecard'! I believe it'll take a bit more than 'an idea' to change that area of The Rules!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			My phone works fine in the rain. You should probably upgrade. If it's that heavy I'll wait till I'm under my brolly or it eases up, same as I do currently.  If my phone screen gets wet I wipe it dry....*.If my card gets wet it's possibly my ruined*

Click to expand...

Do what I do - carry a couple of spares.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There has just been the most significant changes to RofG for a generation (imo). Yet nothing changed relating to 'The scorecard'! I believe it'll take a bit more than 'an idea' to change that area of The Rules!
		
Click to expand...

What I mean is, if electronic scorecards come in, the rules will change to accommodate them. For things like the wording of marking someone's card, signing the card, etc etc. They won't say no to scorecards just because the rules don't work with it, that would be stupid.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do what I do - carry a couple of spares.
		
Click to expand...

A truly radical 'solution'! 

Though shouldn't you be 'carrying' your PP's card rather than your own?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

IainP said:



			Am curious SILH, can you read the little pencil numbers okay with your lenses in?
I am close to taking some glasses out to re-adjust my sight back especially for scorecard checking.
On the phone, most of the time I can zoom/expand if I do want to look at it.
		
Click to expand...

I can when filling in the card as I know where to enter the number - right after the previous one.

But as it happens - when entering my score on our system when back in - I struggle reading my card given brightness (or lack of it) of lighting in the clubhouse - unless that is I happen to have my reading glasses with me - which I usually don't at that point.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			What I mean is, if electronic scorecards come in, the rules will change to accommodate them. For things like the wording of marking someone's card, signing the card, etc etc. They won't say no to scorecards just because the rules don't work with it, that would be stupid.
		
Click to expand...

I agree - but it's still a barrier to implementation. Electronic scorecards have actually come in - for 'non-qualifying' comps, but the Rules haven't changed to allow then in qualifying ones. That'll be a loong process!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A truly radical 'solution'! 

Though shouldn't you be 'carrying' your PP's card rather than your own?
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - but if his card gets so wet that I can no longer record a score on it - it makes sense to have a spare to continue with.


----------



## User20204 (Aug 14, 2019)

Scottish Golf are introducing a live scoring and recording app for next season in which it's my understanding many clubs have signed up for. I'm lead to believe it will include online booking for each individual course, have your course pre-loaded with all the details and course planner. The booking part will do away with the need for BRS which costs the clubs a few grand and a few other things that have escaped my mind at the mo.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There has just been the most significant changes to RofG for a generation (imo). Yet nothing changed relating to 'The scorecard'! I believe it'll take a bit more than 'an idea' to change that area of The Rules!
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure,  below is the RoG definition of a scorecard:

"The document where a playerâ€™s score for each hole is entered in stroke play.

The _scorecard_ may be in any paper *or electronic* form approved by the Committee that allows:


The playerâ€™s score to be entered for each hole,
The playerâ€™s handicap to be entered, if it is a handicap competition, and
The marker and the player to certify the scores, and the player to certify his or her handicap in a handicap competition, either by physical signature *or by a method of electronic certification* approved by the Committee.
For what it's worth I feel it will be some time before electronic scorecards are adopted by most clubs in the UK as the practical difficulties outlined in this thread outway the benefits for most golfers,  but the R&A/USGA have for once got ahead of the game.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

doublebogey7 said:



			Are you sure,  below is the RoG definition of a scorecard:

"The document where a playerâ€™s score for each hole is entered in stroke play.

The _scorecard_ may be in any paper *or electronic* form approved by the Committee that allows:


The playerâ€™s score to be entered for each hole,
The playerâ€™s handicap to be entered, if it is a handicap competition, and
The marker and the player to certify the scores, and the player to certify his or her handicap in a handicap competition, either by physical signature *or by a method of electronic certification* approved by the Committee.
For what it's worth I feel it will be some time before electronic scorecards are adopted by most clubs in the UK as the practical difficulties outlined in this thread outway the benefits for most golfers,  but the R&A/USGA have for once got ahead of the game.
		
Click to expand...

Doh! I stand (actually lie) corrected!

Indeed, fairly forward thinking for traditionally fairly rigid organisations!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Let's call it a day, you stick with what you know

digital scoring WILL come, probably sooner than you think (other countries are already allowing online score entry)

Scroll to the bottom, https://www.intelligentgolf.co.uk/competitions

Click to expand...

That option at the bottom we have that on - but you still need to have a scorecard ( paper) , you still need to accept the score in the PSI and it has failed a number of time


----------



## doublebogey7 (Aug 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah it's already allowed within the rules,  *one of the major players in golf club scoring and handicap management has a system developed and available*. You can bet the others do too.
No reason to not get it up and running in tandem with pencils and card .
		
Click to expand...

Really,  the link you provided for intelligence golf,  did not at all indicate that a system that would comply with the Rules of Golf had been developed,  quite the opposite I would say.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 14, 2019)

doublebogey7 said:



			the R&A/USGA have for once got ahead of the game.
		
Click to expand...

Not really surprising. As they wrote the WHS, and realised that the US & Canadian 'casual play' approach was suited to cardless remote entry, they built it in to the rules in anticipation. Certainly the facility is in the WHS if national authorities wish to adopt it together with cardless.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 14, 2019)

doublebogey7 said:



			Really,  the link you provided for intelligence golf,  did not at all indicate that a system that would comply with the Rules of Golf had been developed,  quite the opposite I would say.
		
Click to expand...

All the ISVs are developing the functionality and are well on the way but why would they individually mention the detail of what they are doing now as everyone else is doing the same thing. And we won't be using it til November 2020 anyway.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Aug 14, 2019)

rulefan said:



			All the ISVs are developing the functionality and are well on the way but why would they individually mention the detail of what they are doing now as everyone else is doing the same thing. And we won't be using it til November 2020 anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, I was not aware of that and neither are many others given the length of this thread and that only now has this been mentioned.


----------



## SammmeBee (Aug 14, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Not to jump on that too much, but I don't think citing the rules of golf in an argument against electronic scorecards really worked. Considering those rules were written long before tablets and smartphones were even dreamt of, I would have thought they simply need to be re-written accordingly if electronic scoring comes to pass.
		
Click to expand...

Have you checked the new Rules at all?


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 14, 2019)

SammmeBee said:



			Have you checked the new Rules at all?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't read them with regards to scoring, my comment was just a response to people (more than one) who said it won't happen because of this rule and that rule.


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 14, 2019)

Interesting from the WHS FAQs on the EGU website

*How do I return my score at home? From Abroad? Who is responsible for this, and do I need to follow it up? 

It is hoped that the technology will be in place to help with the posting of scores at the venue at which you play. *

*This would be automatically processed. *

oof, I wonder what that technology could be


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 14, 2019)

And ...

*How does my scorecard get signed if I am going to play abroad and input the score online? *

*As the technology is developed we anticipate some form of digital signature from your playing partner. *

Please, someone find me a LMFAO emoji


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 14, 2019)

Stop it please..

*Will there be an App for the submission of scores? 
It is hoped that in time an app will be available; but initially scores will be submitted at the club you have played. *


----------



## User20204 (Aug 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is a pen and pencil dark ages now ? Or an appropriate use of equipment for the required job

Basic job at times requires just the simple basic tools.
		
Click to expand...


Do you still get up out your chair to turn the telly over ?

Do you still go to a call box to make a call  ? 


I'm going to guess no is the answer to these questions yet they are perfectly appropriate to do the job. 

The level of objection towards moving things on can surely only happen in this sport.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Do you still get up out your chair to turn the telly over ?

Do you still go to a call box to make a call  ?


I'm going to guess no is the answer to these questions yet they are perfectly appropriate to do the job.

The level of objection towards moving things on can surely only happen in this sport.
		
Click to expand...

As already posted before 



Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe reading through the thread people would have no problems embracing change as long as it was worthwhile , improved performance and was cost effective enough to justify the requirement for the change.

Sometimes change isnâ€™t always good and is nothing but a placebo that doesnâ€™t actually provide a better service.
		
Click to expand...


"Improved Performance" " Cost effective to justify the requirement for the change"

Come back when both those are relevant until then - its pencil and scorecard


----------



## User20204 (Aug 14, 2019)

So entering your score via an app isn't an improvement on waiting in a que at a computer in your club, cool, stick to what you know, I'm gonna go with the new tech.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So entering your score via an app isn't an improvement on waiting in a que at a computer in your club, cool, stick to what you know, I'm gonna go with the new tech.
		
Click to expand...

That improvement is not there yet - hasnâ€™t been developed so how do you know itâ€™s an improvement that justifies any cost implications. 

I have seen people trying to use an online scoring AP and itâ€™s more of a struggle than the PSI for them and thatâ€™s without having digital signing etc. 

It takes me about a 1 minute to enter my score on the PSI


----------



## doublebogey7 (Aug 14, 2019)

brfcfan said:



			I am the comp sec at our club and after each comp I count the returned cards see if they are signed etc etc.

I think that this could be done electronically, with electronic signatures, saving the need for players to input their score on the main terminal and comp secs the time in counting cards and time in finding out who hasn't returned a card.

Would this method be allowed under the current CONGU rules, and if so has any clubs used this method or thinking about it?
		
Click to expand...

See post 311,  I wouldn't wish to have to read the whole of this thread to get the answer to your original question which the majority of posts ignores.  

Though it is allowed under the RoG it would rely on one of the Official ISV's developing the necessary technology, in order to satisfy CONGU.  Apparently, ISV's are currently working on it for the WHS though there is no indication at the moment that it would be ready at implementation.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 14, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Do you still get up out your chair to turn the telly over ?

Do you still go to a call box to make a call  ?


I'm going to guess no is the answer to these questions yet they are perfectly appropriate to do the job.

The level of objection towards moving things on can surely only happen in this sport.
		
Click to expand...

This is very true but some people still do ( my dad had a garden cane to push the buttons)
It will come eventually but what the younger lads grew up with is alien to a lot of us.
Some of the terms on this thread have gone over my head.
But letâ€™s keep it civil lads.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I haven't read them with regards to scoring, my comment was just a response to people (more than one) who said it won't happen because of this rule and that rule.
		
Click to expand...

Well I, for one, have 'amended' my view on that - given the adjustment to the Definition of 'Scorecard' in The Rules!

Interesting - if not portable - data input device in that IG blurb - a standard looking IG input device (about 5 ft high and less portable than a ack of spuds!). Obviously a long way off truly portable data entry (VPar equivalent) devices (or Phone App!) and no interface (yet) to actual handicap system. I don't see this happening until WHS is implemented - and probably a little while after that!

And the Comp Sec's checking role still won't have gone, though may be reduced!


----------



## Golfman15 (Aug 15, 2019)

I am not against technology and have a smartphone and a golf GPS that I use on just about every round I play.
My worry with electronic scoring is device failure during the competition. The added benefits tech brings to a situation need to be balanced against the risks. The main purpose of score cards is a cheap, reliable and universal system that whilst not foolproof does the job the vast majority of the time.
Tech is an added extra for me, I just donâ€™t think it can currently do the  core thing (the scoring) reliably enough


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

When replacing landline-based telephony with such as Skype it is usually sensible to keep a few landline telephones...

The old way of doing things will often always have it's place in the 'new' world.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			When replacing landline-based telephony with such as Skype it is usually sensible to keep a few landline telephones...

The old way of doing things will often always have it's place in the 'new' world.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't had a landline phone for almost a decade.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I haven't had a landline phone for almost a decade.
		
Click to expand...

And if your mobile network goes down and you have an absolute need to maintain communications with the outside world?

Just saying that for business continuity purposes many business do not get rid of all of their landlines.  Where the new technology has a number of risk and failure points a minimum level of the old technology is retained as it more robust.

And so I suggest it will be with electronic score cards.  Because I do not disagree that at some point they will be the norm.  But it may well be that in many circumstances we might take a card with us as a backup.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I still have a land line for my internet, the only callers are scammers and my mother in law.
With 5g promising high speeds and no need for a fixed line I'll happily take it at some point.
Pretty farcical some of the responses to the possibility of electronic scoring.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah you need a _line_ for your internet, I meant that I have not had a physical phone connected to the landline for a decade. Since I moved out from my parents'. I've just used my mobile number for everything.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*And if your mobile network goes down and you have an absolute need to maintain communications with the outside world?*

Just saying that for business continuity purposes many business do not get rid of all of their landlines.  Where the new technology has a number of risk and failure points a minimum level of the old technology is retained as it more robust.

And so I suggest it will be with electronic score cards.  Because I do not disagree that at some point they will be the norm.  But it may well be that in many circumstances we might take a card with us as a backup.
		
Click to expand...

Then I use WhatsApp via wifi. You could say the same of old phone systems if the phone network goes down, or there's a power cut and you can't use the handset.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why? Does your mobile phone stop working if the mobile network goes down?
		
Click to expand...

If I lose signal I lose live connection to the outside world - and my wireless can also vanish.  OK I might be able to play games on it...but only if the game doesn't require connectivity


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Then I use WhatsApp via wifi. You could say the same of old phone systems if the phone network goes down, or there's a power cut and you can't use the handset.
		
Click to expand...

Most businesses that requires communication with the outside world will not rely on wireless and the mobile phone networks alone - and will have UPS backup for loss of power.  I am not sure the last time the landlines and exchanges went down.  Certainly doesn't happen as often as I lose signal or the network becomes congested...

I agree that electronic scorecards will most probably become the norm.  And yes - loss of mobile signal will just mean that your score will only be held locally - for downloading later when back in clubhouse.  And wifi out on the golf course?  Maybe.  But loss of connectivity means you lose one of the additional benefits of electronic scorecard - live scoring.

I suggest that we will almost always continue to carry a card - just in case.  Maybe only one per playing group - but one will be to hand.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why would you carry a paper card? I don't currently carry a spare  In case I lose or damage one at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

Well I always do - in case the one I am recording a player's score on get's wet and unusable or I lose it.  If you don't carry a spare what would you do?  Record scores on your phone I guess?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why would you carry a paper card? I don't currently carry a spare  In case I lose or damage one at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

No good in a medal if you lose the card you're marking.
You cary spare tees and balls I assume, how much space does an extra spare card or 2 take up in your bag?


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2019)

How has this become about carrying a spare card? In the unlikely event that I lost my card I'd just pick up a new one when I got back to the pro shop, and fill it in by copying the numbers off the other players' cards.


----------



## GB72 (Aug 15, 2019)

A bit off topic and a long, long way down the line but can you ever see a time when a round of golf is pretty much self scoring. There are issues about penalty strokes, drops etc but the rudimental elements of this are already here with some GPS devices (admittedly still not accurately) recording strokes tee to green and some club inserts recording data. May never come in my lifetime but surely this is the end game, a round of golf that scores itself automatically. Not saying that this is something that would happen for many years but, if focused on, surely this could be part of golf in the future.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2019)

GB72 said:



			A bit off topic and a long, long way down the line but can you ever see a time when a round of golf is pretty much self scoring. There are issues about penalty strokes, drops etc but the rudimental elements of this are already here with some GPS devices (admittedly still not accurately) recording strokes tee to green and some club inserts recording data. May never come in my lifetime but surely this is the end game, a round of golf that scores itself automatically. Not saying that this is something that would happen for many years but, if focused on, surely this could be part of golf in the future.
		
Click to expand...

Have you heard of PuttShack? It's crazy golf essentially, but using a similar technology to TopGolf, where the balls are tagged to each person electronically, you make your way around the crazy golf and never have to write down a score because the tagged ball knows when you've hit it and how many times - and the leaderboard for your group is put up on TV screens around you. So what you're talking about is only expanding that to real golf. Obviously it may require every golf ball manufacturer to start putting electronic chips in their balls though.


----------



## GB72 (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I thought about this too. Certainly the tech exists , how it would be implemented  would be interesting.  You already have clubs with built in sensors to detect strokes . I'm   not sure we'll ever get to that degree , but tech had advanced so much in the last century or so, who knows what lies ahead.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is always going to be the addition of penalty strokes, how it would record drops etc without adding strokes, that sort of thing. It is a long way off but not impossible. That said, this may require the scores to be uploaded in real time to an electronic device so as any penalties can be recorded at the end of a hole.


----------



## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

I have Shot Scope v2 and it normally takes me about 10 mins or so post-round editing to sort a round after I play. With current technology, you still have to sort out penalty shots, provisionals etc. and the odd missed shot. And while not directly related to scoring, the GPS isn't as accurate as you may think so often have to tweak shots e.g. the GPS thinks I was near the bunker where as in real life I was actually in the bunker.

So it's still very good tech but some way off being fit for being used to record scores that could be automatically submitted without being checked/edited first.


----------



## GB72 (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I have Shot Scope v2 and it normally takes me about 10 mins or so post-round editing to sort a round after I play. With current technology, you still have to sort out penalty shots, provisionals etc. and the odd missed shot. And while not directly related to scoring, the GPS isn't as accurate as you may think so often have to tweak shots e.g. the GPS thinks I was near the bunker where as in real life I was actually in the bunker.

So it's still very good tech but some way off being fit for being used to record scores that could be automatically submitted without being checked/edited first.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, its a way off but something that does appear achievable if a company put their mind to it. Suspect it would have to be driven by equipment manufacturers though as the research costs would appear high for a start up and it would need someone with influence within the game to even start thinking of spreading a standard system. A very long way off but possible.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Aug 15, 2019)

GB72 said:



			A bit off topic and a long, long way down the line but can you ever see a time when a round of golf is pretty much self scoring. There are issues about penalty strokes, drops etc but the rudimental elements of this are already here with some GPS devices (admittedly still not accurately) recording strokes tee to green and some club inserts recording data. May never come in my lifetime but surely this is the end game, a round of golf that scores itself automatically. Not saying that this is something that would happen for many years but, if focused on, surely this could be part of golf in the future.
		
Click to expand...

Tech is expanding so dramatically and quickly that this is entirely feasible at some point down the line. Not tomorrow but at some point, yes.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What difference does it make if it's a medal. I don't currently carry a spare card.
		
Click to expand...

You call it an excuse, I call it sensible.


----------



## CliveW (Aug 15, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Then I use WhatsApp via wifi. You could say the same of old phone systems if the phone network goes down, or there's a power cut and you can't use the handset.
		
Click to expand...


That is completely wrong! The telephone system does not rely on mains electricity to work. If you have a cordless one it does but a simple plug in one works fine when there is a power cut. Trust me we have plenty power cuts here.


----------



## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2019)

CliveW said:



			That is completely wrong! The telephone system does not rely on mains electricity to work. If you have a cordless one it does but a simple plug in one works fine when there is a power cut. Trust me we have plenty power cuts here.
		
Click to expand...

As mentioned, I haven't had one for a decade so I wouldn't know.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

CliveW said:



			That is completely wrong! The telephone system does not rely on mains electricity to work. If you have a cordless one it does but a simple plug in one works fine when there is a power cut. Trust me we have plenty power cuts here.
		
Click to expand...

Which is why the BBC still have a load of landlines - even although they have got rid of most.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What does any of that have to do with golf scoring?
		
Click to expand...

Simply a reflection on the vulnerabilities of modern internet and mobile network technologies to failure or congestion, and the need for a robust reversion solution.  Hence mobile and internet comms might be lost, but old school fixed land line telephony won't be.

And so when we have eCards for scoring - if and when eCard comms back to the server and the clubhouse get disrupted or lost, or our eCard gets wet, splutters and dies - we can always revert to old school card and pencil.  And so I am thinking that there will be a need for cards for a long time yet.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No one's saying they won't be. I just don't get the fixation people have with the phone network and digital scoring. There is no dependency on it at all.
		
Click to expand...

My fixed line vs mobile telephony and VOIP example was just to suggest that there are circumstances when the most up to date technology is not always sufficient in itself for all circumstances.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No one's saying they won't be. I just don't get the fixation people have with the phone network and digital scoring. There is no dependency on it at all.
The same for this sudden  notion I'll need to carry a physical card just in case.i don't at the moment so why on earth would I suddenly need to.
		
Click to expand...

The only person fixated over this is your good self, with your technology drive and your insistance that marking a score card is somehow wrong/backwards/archaic and anything else including simple and easy to understand for  everyone who plays the game.


----------



## Pants (Aug 15, 2019)

For goodness sake - STOP FEEDING THE TROLL


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

I would worry the Russians could interfere with the tech and turn a par into Double bogey while I wasnâ€™t looking.!,
It will come when the systems are ready.
But cost will stop a lot of clubs.


----------



## uncle chop chop (Aug 16, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			How has this become about carrying a spare card? In the unlikely event that I lost my card I'd just pick up a new one when I got back to the pro shop, and fill it in by copying the numbers off the other players' cards.
		
Click to expand...

But half this thread is about only needing one device to record all scores. If one player looses a card then its easy to fill it in in the pro shop by referencing the other cards.

However unlikely if a single device holding all 4 scores failed then that very difficult to do. Battery running out is a likely occurrence though so realistically we are back to using multiple devices again. Whether that be phone or specialist device.

People saying do you still get up to change the TV or do you still use a phone box are stupid comparisons also. The benefits there are clear, do you want to get out your chair walk half a mile in the rain to ring your mate who may not answer or do you want to do it with out having to move, in pretty much any location of your choosing, cant be compared to do you want to take your card and pencil out and write a number down or take a electronic device out and key a number in and save no time in doing so. The saving to the general user is invisible. The benefits are at the back end for the handicap sec who to be honest is a poor forgotten man at most golf clubs. so why would this be any different.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

Has anybody bothered to ask the handicap secretaries in the clubs .
Most are volunteers and their computer skills may not be up to it.
As they are the ones doing the work they should have the last word imo.

As you put your card in the box now.
Where do you leave the device when finished ?
Whoâ€™s responsible for charging?
It makes more work than people think.


----------



## SammmeBee (Aug 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Has anybody bothered to ask the handicap secretaries in the clubs .
Most are volunteers and their skills may not be up to it.
		
Click to expand...

Thereâ€™s the real problem!!


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			There are no devices to charge. You're making out like it's some kind of enterprise SAP system we're thinking about.
What a properly bizzare thread I can't say I'm surprised at the animosity if  not a little disappointed.
		
Click to expand...

Let me put you straight, I know sweet FA about computers and tech.
And I am not â€œ  Making anything out â€œ thatâ€™s an assumption on your part.
If thereâ€™s no devices where do you record the scores?
Whatâ€™s a SAP system?
This is the problem with people who know how tech works ,they think everybody else knows how it works.

The reason why is I asked some questions .you decided not to answer them and just preach to me.
That is disappointing.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 16, 2019)

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone has come out and said that this won't happen.
You're right..it will happen.
Many people are just pointing out that there are many hurdles in the way of what you seem to think is an easy thing to implement


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			My point all along has been I'd like to try digital scoring for those who want , otherwsie stick with card. Look at post 16 I think.
		
Click to expand...

My point was .you preaching at me taught me nothing!
And you still did not answer my questions .
Especially â€œIF THERE ARE NO DEVICES WHERE DO YOU PUY YOUR SCORES WHILE ON THE COURSE.â€


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Read the thread,  im tired of people who can't  arsed to make the effort
		
Click to expand...

I have and itâ€™s a phone app or hand held device or is that wrong.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes an app on a smartphone,
		
Click to expand...

You said NO devices.
The thread has been littered with people saying â€œ what if they donâ€™t have oneâ€
The answer was a device provided by the club,, but we can ignore all them posts!!
Thanks for the debate but you taught me Nothing .
Maybe if you answer a direct question with a civil answer informing the lads on here who may not know what you obviously know there may be less opposition to digital scoring.
Until then itâ€™s card and pencil!


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The scoring stuff has pretty much all just been hypothetical chat, I can't see it coming anytime soon. That said online entry from phones etc isn't far away.
If you have a question  then ask and I'll answer

Sadly the are still a lot of people in golf whod rather it went back in time and become the exclusive club it was previously.
		
Click to expand...

Are you for real ?
Read my last few posts where I have directly asked you questions.

For the record I have posted several posts thinking it is only a matter of time .
I am not against it ,just donâ€™t understand the terms in the tech world.
But if people who know donâ€™t enlighten the likes of me that donâ€™t know this tech stuff ,itâ€™s no surprise they want the status quo.


----------



## SammmeBee (Aug 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The scoring stuff has pretty much all just been hypothetical chat, I can't see it coming anytime soon. That said online entry from phones etc isn't far away.
If you have a question  then ask and I'll answer 

Sadly the are still a lot of people in golf whod rather it went back in time and become the exclusive club it was previously.
		
Click to expand...

Online entry is well and truly here - England Golf stuff is all phone accessible and at my club too for all comps


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Are you for real ?
Read my last few posts where I have directly asked you questions.

For the record I have posted several posts thinking it is only a matter of time .
I am not against it ,just donâ€™t understand the terms in the tech world.
But if people who know donâ€™t enlighten the likes of me that donâ€™t know this tech stuff ,itâ€™s no surprise they want the status quo.
		
Click to expand...

For real what?
Your last few posts are quips about Russians and a few irrelevant notes about charging and stuff. 
Nothing I can see you are actually asking.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Let me put you straight, I know sweet FA about computers and tech.
And I am not â€œ  Making anything out â€œ thatâ€™s an assumption on your part.
If thereâ€™s no devices where do you record the scores?
Whatâ€™s a SAP system?
This is the problem with people who know how tech works ,they think everybody else knows how it works.

The reason why is I asked some questions .you decided not to answer them and just preach to me.
That is disappointing.
		
Click to expand...

Thereâ€™s a couple here where the question marks are.

The Russian remark was a joke. But a big lack of a sense of humour is obvious.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Fair enough.
For devices I'm saying your own mobile should be  adequate . There was a long strand about clubs needing to provide scoring devices, thats what I'm saying is not needed .
As for SAP...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP_ERP

Click to expand...

Thank you .


----------



## sunshine (Aug 16, 2019)

Using electronic devices on the course for scoring should not be permitted because it will aggravate my electromagnetic hyper-sensitivity syndrome.


----------



## sunshine (Aug 16, 2019)

Surely the long term answer is to have drones powered by bots following every player around the course to monitor your play and collect score data. The drone would recognise a shot and automatically record it, thus keeping your score without your input - you would just need to check it and confirm at the end of the round using your biometric signature.

The drone would also record footage of everything you did over the round, so would be able to monitor pace of play, offer play back to help resolve disputes, as well as provide yardages. It could also deliver drinks and snacks mid-round, or replacement pencils and paper scorecards if it was raining.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 17, 2019)

Mmm....they could also be used to combat slow play.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 17, 2019)

I don't think there is any doubt that some form of electronic scoring will happen in the future but many clubs are struggling financially and paper scorecards are a cheap option.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 17, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Using electronic devices on the course for scoring should not be permitted because it will aggravate my electromagnetic hyper-sensitivity syndrome.[/

How are you posting on here then ? 
Is your PA doing it for you ,my butler is not happy posting mine lol.

Thereâ€™s a lot of sensitive people about you canâ€™t cater for them all.
If you have a doctors letter they might let you have a card and pencil.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ExRabbit (Aug 18, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			My understanding is there will still be a terminal for those dinosaurs who are still alive once this app comes live.
		
Click to expand...

You come across as a really nice person to play golf with.........


----------



## User20204 (Aug 18, 2019)

ExRabbit said:



			You come across as a really nice person to play golf with.........
		
Click to expand...


And you come across as someone who has had a humour bypass.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 18, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			And you come across as someone who has had a humour bypass.
		
Click to expand...

Had a laugh with one of the seniors 70+ he still has a Nokia 310 he was asking if it would be able to input his scores.


----------



## BrianM (Aug 18, 2019)

I wouldnâ€™t be surprised if someone developed a digital scorecard that you picked up before you went off and it automatically transferred your scores to a main server, technology is moving fast.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes an app on a smartphone,
		
Click to expand...

What's an App?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 19, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What's an App?
		
Click to expand...

It's what you mind on the underground


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_app

Click to expand...

Sorry, Robin, I was being somewhat facetious. I do use a smartphone, but a lot less than the tech aware youngsters. You would probably cringe at the little use I make of its abilities, and apps I am wary ofðŸ˜€, but no doubt cos I am the wrong side of seventy.
Whilst I can see that you are enthusiastic about ease of scoring golf competitions  using such apps, be mindful that your comfort with these phones and apps etc is not shared by a lot of golfers, mainly seniors, of which there are many.
They may be very convenient to use, but surely only as an ancillary to pencil and card.
Otherwise,
Like electric cars, the big problem , it seems to me, is the in between period from introduction to almost universal use. And it would have to be completely reliable universal use, would it not?
Imagine a competition where all are using only the app.- Just put in the score and everything else is taken care of. No checking to be done, etc, the computer does it all. -
Then, an hour into the competition, the computer fails, or the connectivity fails, or individual phones fail (are those chaps d/q?)
I cannot see a point in tech development where a pencil and card would not have to be used as a back up, can you?
When we return our scores at our club, as well as the cards being submitted , there is a requirement to input the score on the club computer. I see the benefits of that, of course, and yes, why not do it as you play .? Again, yes .
But IMO, still using the pencil too.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			some very good points and I agree I dont see electric scoring replacing pencil and card anytime soon.
...
Specifically around failures? You are correct many things can go wrong, i think the only one that is of any real concern is device failure and for that read battery running out!, akin to losing a scorecard really.
*I'd  log the scores separately *and we sort it out back at the club house, same as if I had lost your physical card.
		
Click to expand...

...and that's why you'd carry a card...

No working out with Playing Companions whose device to use - just whip the card out and continue where you left off.  No bother, No hassle, No Delay.  Just nice and handy.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Surely, any system that captures data in real time must be able to confirm actual capture. So, in the (hopefully) rare instances of failure, previously entered & confirmed scores are safe and it's only current holes that need to be entered by another means - whether via the app or card. I'd envisage that PSI would pick up what had been entered and allow the player/marker to enter the outstanding as happens for the entire card now.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 19, 2019)

This thread reminds me of the story about NASA spending millions developing a biro that would work in zero gravity so that the astronauts could write things down in space. The Russians used a pencil.

Or words to that effect


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

drive4show said:



			This thread reminds me of the story about NASA spending millions developing a biro that would work in zero gravity so that the astronauts could write things down in space. The Russians used a pencil.

Or words to that effect  

Click to expand...




robinthehood said:



			You mean the myth about using a pencil vs a space age biro?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/ 

Another myth - but certain parts of the article typify what CAN happen.

In 1989, I saw the transcript of an invoice for $4000 with about 50 lines of text describing the 'appartus'. Turned out it was a simple nut and bolt! And at the time, the company I was working at (on contract) was trying to minimise/reduce a $400 lawsuit for similar overcharging of US Government.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You mean the myth about using a pencil vs a space age biro?
		
Click to expand...

Yep that's the one


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			They went for the space pen ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

They did indeed.......but 50 years later pencils are still around


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I've no doubt they'll be around for a long time yet, so I'm not sure what you're getting at
Does it really bother you that much that there may be the option to use your phone to score in the future ?
		
Click to expand...

I never said it did bother me, all I said was this thread reminded me of a story about creating a complex solution to a simple problem.


----------



## ExRabbit (Aug 20, 2019)

Just finished reading this thread and I can't remember anyone putting this argument  forward for continuing to use paper cards.

At our club we come in from the course in consecutive groups, some of us go to put our clubs into the car/locker first, and some go straight to the terminal. So when we get there we are often mixing with players we didn't play with, and we have a natter about how the day went.

It doesn't take a lot of time to transfer the scores from the cards to the terminal, and it is part of the social part of playing the game for us.


----------



## ScienceBoy (Aug 20, 2019)

You only need 18 terminals.

Golfers can tap in scores as they go round, on the tee for the next hole and walking off the last. 

Signing in is easy, use membership tag as RFID on a bungee.

Marker taps to confirm. So all done in three taps.

Scorer taps tag, scorer taps score, marker taps to confirm.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 20, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			You only need 18 terminals.

Golfers can tap in scores as they go round, on the tee for the next hole and walking off the last.

Signing in is easy, use membership tag as RFID on a bungee.

Marker taps to confirm. So all done in three taps.

Scorer taps tag, scorer taps score, marker taps to confirm.
		
Click to expand...

If you are a crazy golf course on the promenade with power already in place it may work,but on a course thatâ€™s quite spread out how do you power those terminals you talk of? The set up costs would probably be prohibitive when you consider the cost of years worth of the simple score card.


----------



## ScienceBoy (Aug 20, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			how do you power those terminals you talk of?
		
Click to expand...

Solar power, except in Scotland... There I am out of ideas... maybe wind?


----------



## sunshine (Aug 20, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			You only need 18 terminals.

Golfers can tap in scores as they go round, on the tee for the next hole and walking off the last.

Signing in is easy, use membership tag as RFID on a bungee.

Marker taps to confirm. So all done in three taps.

Scorer taps tag, scorer taps score, marker taps to confirm.
		
Click to expand...

An iPad on each tee? There was a poster from Liverpool complaining about people stealing golf balls a while ago. How long would these score entry devices last? I've seen people trying to steal security protected devices in carphone warehouse so no chance on a golf course


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 20, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			Solar power, except in Scotland... There I am out of ideas... maybe wind?
		
Click to expand...

Micro turbines


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Micro turbines
		
Click to expand...

Are they as cheap as a kids windmill?
If not, how many boxes of cards can you get for one or your micro turbine?


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 21, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Are they as cheap as a kids windmill?
If not, how many boxes of cards can you get for one or your micro turbine?
		
Click to expand...

Staggeringly expensive, top 100 courses only probably.  May be  not hunstanton


----------



## ScienceBoy (Aug 21, 2019)

I think before we solve it automated scoring might have come in.

Imaging 10 pin bowling scoring but for golf!


----------



## robinthehood (Aug 21, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I think before we solve it automated scoring might have come in.

Imaging 10 pin bowling scoring but for golf!
		
Click to expand...

 With bumpers on the fairways


----------



## ScienceBoy (Aug 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			With bumpers on the fairways
		
Click to expand...

Only if they go up and down depending on your handicap.


----------



## theoneandonly (May 3, 2021)

This was an interesting read, how many of you are now using mobile phone entry? Do you still hanker for a card and a rummage for a pencil?
Are you looking forward to the good old days of losing your scorecard and probably asking for the flag to be tended


----------



## NearHull (May 3, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			This was an interesting read, how many of you are now using mobile phone entry? Do you still hanker for a card and a rummage for a pencil?
Are you looking forward to the good old days of losing your scorecard and probably asking for the flag to be tended 

Click to expand...

I’m hoping that we can move forward to getting rid of the need for physical cards,


----------



## Tashyboy (May 3, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I’m hoping that we can move forward to getting rid of the need for physical cards,
		
Click to expand...

A major problem for not having scorecards is this. On the IG app you see how the scoring is going, you can see who is winning, you can see how many points you need after 15,16 holes to win. You can play conservative Just to win. With a card and scores entered in the clubhouse you cannot.


----------



## NearHull (May 3, 2021)

I am not familiar with IG app.  The ClubV1/HDID app can be disabled for real time scores.


----------



## doublebogey7 (May 3, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			A major problem for not having scorecards is this. On the IG app you see how the scoring is going, you can see who is winning, you can see how many points you need after 15,16 holes to win. You can play conservative Just to win. With a card and scores entered in the clubhouse you cannot.
		
Click to expand...

Would live to hear an explanation of why you feel this is a problem,  it's certainly net seen  that way in the pro game


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 3, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I’m hoping that we can move forward to getting rid of the need for physical cards,
		
Click to expand...

How will competition organisers cater for those players who do not own a smartphone?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I am not familiar with IG app.  The ClubV1/HDID app can be disabled for real time scores.
		
Click to expand...

On IG it’s easily turned off 

Interesting who the person is that bumped the thread - wonder which other poster he was beforehand 

Most of the posts from 2 years ago all had the same theme - at some stage the use of  electronic scoring will be in but needs developing - there are still bugs and issues right now with the Apps but still a good step forward. 

We though have a number of members who don’t have a smart phone or the App and have a number who won’t use either


----------



## BTatHome (May 3, 2021)

When entering scores on the My EG app (for social rounds) they specifically say do not enter a score at your club (to avoid duplicate scores), so I guess the need for a scorecard has already been removed for that purpose.


----------



## SammmeBee (May 3, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			This was an interesting read, how many of you are now using mobile phone entry? Do you still hanker for a card and a rummage for a pencil?
Are you looking forward to the good old days of losing your scorecard and probably asking for the flag to be tended 

Click to expand...

Personally I’d never like to see or use a paper scorecard again.....


----------



## rulefan (May 3, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			How will competition organisers cater for those players who do not own a smartphone?
		
Click to expand...

I have seen one app (GolfGenius?) which allows one player in a group to enter the scores for all in the group. I guess others do also.


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I have seen one app (GolfGenius?) which allows one player in a group to enter the scores for all in the group. I guess others do also.
		
Click to expand...

How does that square with a player being responsible for his own score?


----------



## SammmeBee (May 3, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			How does that square with a player being responsible for his own score?
		
Click to expand...

Currently.....you just verbally agree the scores...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I have seen one app (GolfGenius?) which allows one player in a group to enter the scores for all in the group. I guess others do also.
		
Click to expand...

That doesn’t help when it comes to Qualfiying comps

It was the biggest issue we faced last year and this year so far - people who don’t have smart phones or the app to use the IG app


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 3, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I’m hoping that we can move forward to getting rid of the need for physical cards,
		
Click to expand...

If you get your card wet in the rain ( like today) you just get a new card.
But we can’t buy a new phone every time we drop it in a puddle.
With the virus I can see there is a problem with cards.
But lots of golfers don’t own a phone or internet connection.
Change is happening but this tech is not foolproof judging by some of the zooms I have been on.
We need a mix of both imo.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 3, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Would live to hear an explanation of why you feel this is a problem,  it's certainly net seen  that way in the pro game
		
Click to expand...

“ it’s your turn to play and you havnt even got your headcover off “
“ sorry just checking where I am after that hole”
The pros are at work ,we are not.


----------



## srixon 1 (May 3, 2021)

I don’t take my phone onto the course. Easier just to write on card and enter into computer later.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			On IG it’s easily turned off

Interesting who the person is that bumped the thread - wonder which other poster he was beforehand

Most of the posts from 2 years ago all had the same theme - at some stage the use of  electronic scoring will be in but needs developing - there are still bugs and issues right now with the Apps but still a good step forward.

We though have a number of members who don’t have a smart phone or the App and have a number who won’t use either
		
Click to expand...

Yes so do we and not all old fossils.
We have a few younger lads who leave their phones at home.
“ it rules my life and I come here to get away from it” said one.


----------



## SammmeBee (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That doesn’t help when it comes to Qualfiying comps

It was the biggest issue we faced last year and this year so far - people who don’t have smart phones or the app to use the IG app
		
Click to expand...

This makes no sense.....


----------



## azazel (May 3, 2021)

We've (in Scotland) been using the Scottish Golf app for all our comps this year up until Saturday as that was the first time our pro shop had been open for a comp due to Covid restrictions. On Saturday we had three options:
1. Score through the app as normal;
2. One player keep scores for the whole group through the app, with the other two signing in for the comp on an iPad in the pro shop before the round and verifying their score on the same iPad afterwards;
3. The whole group sign on the iPad before the round, keep their scores on a card "the old way", and then enter and verify their scores on the iPad afterwards.
It seemed to work very well and as far as I can see all bases are covered.


----------



## theoneandonly (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			On IG it’s easily turned off

Interesting who the person is that bumped the thread - wonder which other poster he was beforehand

Most of the posts from 2 years ago all had the same theme - at some stage the use of  electronic scoring will be in but needs developing - there are still bugs and issues right now with the Apps but still a good step forward.

We though have a number of members who don’t have a smart phone or the App and have a number who won’t use either
		
Click to expand...

Is it interesting,  Why do you think I'm a previous poster?  
I thought the topic of app based scorecards would be quite popular and I was sure it must have come up before, did a quick search of the forum and this thread turned up.


----------



## BiMGuy (May 3, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			If you get your card wet in the rain ( like today) you just get a new card.
But we can’t buy a new phone every time we drop it in a puddle.
With the virus I can see there is a problem with cards.
But lots of golfers don’t own a phone or internet connection.
Change is happening but this tech is not foolproof judging by some of the zooms I have been on.
We need a mix of both imo.
		
Click to expand...

That must be a vanishingly small number of people. Someone in another thread said they estimated around 5% of their membership didn't have access to email. So thats 10s of people per club. Some of which may not even bother handing a card in anyway. 

If they really want to write their scores down there is nothing to stop them doing so on a note pad of their own and entering their score on the console in the club. 

Most smart phones are now waterproof. Even older ones can withstand getting a bit wet in the rain. If it's that wet a phone is likely to become damaged, you won't be out playing golf!

Getting rid of physical cards would reduce a vast amount of unnecessary waste. Charge £1 for each card and you would soon see people change their mind about considering an alternative method.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			This makes no sense.....
		
Click to expand...

How can you enter your score into an app when you don’t have a smart phone ?

The IG app only allows you to enter your phone an scorecard not anyone else’s 

So how can their score be entered into the competition using the Golfgenuis app that was mentioned


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 3, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			That must be a vanishingly small number of people. Someone in another thread said they estimated around 5% of their membership didn't have access to email. So thats 10s of people per club. Some of which may not even bother handing a card in anyway.

If they really want to write their scores down there is nothing to stop them doing so on a note pad of their own and entering their score on the console in the club.

Most smart phones are now waterproof. Even older ones can withstand getting a bit wet in the rain. If it's that wet a phone is likely to become damaged, you won't be out playing golf!

Getting rid of physical cards would reduce a vast amount of unnecessary waste. Charge £1 for each card and you would soon see people change their mind about considering an alternative method.
		
Click to expand...

Yes am just playing devils advocate.
But scoring on a phone in the rain with reading glasses is no easy feat.
Wouldn’t mind a 5% pay rise depends how you look at it!
5% is still a lot of players.


----------



## SammmeBee (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How can you enter your score into an app when you don’t have a smart phone ?

The IG app only allows you to enter your phone an scorecard not anyone else’s

So how can their score be entered into the competition using the Golfgenuis app that was mentioned
		
Click to expand...

If they get a 4 then you press 4!!!  Most people in the UK have smart phones, just tell them they need to use it!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			If they get a 4 then you press 4!!!  Most people in the UK have smart phones, just tell them they need to use it!
		
Click to expand...

Maybe read what is being posted - we have members that “don’t have a smart phone” - we have members that don’t even have a mobile at all , some that don’t have internet and a good number that don’t have emails etc.

believe the last census was 30% of over 55 year olds don’t have a smart phone - average age of many golf clubs is over 55

https://www.statista.com/statistics/956297/ownership-of-smartphones-uk/

https://www.finder.com/uk/mobile-internet-statistics

Census last year

Last year we had about 50% of people entering via the IG app and the trend has continued this year


----------



## SammmeBee (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe read what is being posted - we have members that “don’t have a smart phone” - we have members that don’t even have a mobile at all , some that don’t have internet and a good number that don’t have emails etc.

believe the last census was 30% of over 55 year olds don’t have a smart phone - average age of many golf clubs is over 55

Last year we had about 50% of people entering via the IG app and the trend has continued this year
		
Click to expand...

The last census was 10 years ago......stop molly coddling them and just tell them they have to. They will find a way and the very odd one that can’t, you’ll look after......


----------



## SammmeBee (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			some that don’t have internet and a good number that don’t have emails etc.
		
Click to expand...

BTW.....you don’t!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			The last census was 10 years ago......stop molly coddling them and just tell them they have to. They will find a way and the very odd one that can’t, you’ll look after......
		
Click to expand...

https://www.finder.com/uk/mobile-internet-statistics

Was last year - no club is going to “force” it’s members to buy or use a smart phone



SammmeBee said:



			BTW.....you don’t!
		
Click to expand...

Yes we do 🙄 and yes I know they needed an email for WHS hence why they got someone to make one up for them that they will never use or used a friends. We still have a group that phone up each morning to book a tee time because they don’t have Internet at home . We prefer to cater for all our members


----------



## SammmeBee (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.finder.com/uk/mobile-internet-statistics

Was last year - no club is going to “force” it’s members to buy or use a smart phone



Yes we do 🙄 and yes I know they needed an email for WHS hence why they got someone to make one up for them that they will never use or used a friends. We still have a group that phone up each morning to book a tee time because they don’t have Internet at home . We prefer to cater for all our members
		
Click to expand...

‘A’ group - is that the 1 bloke in the 1 4 ball that get the bloke without internet to book it as the other 3 just can’t be arsed?!


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 3, 2021)

The day that I am compelled to take a smartphone on the course will be the day I stop taking a smartphone on the course - in protest. In my opinion, smartphones or similar devices must never become a requirement of competitive golf. They have their uses, in particular during pandemics, but compulsory use in golf, never.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			A major problem for not having scorecards is this. On the IG app you see how the scoring is going, you can see who is winning, you can see how many points you need after 15,16 holes to win. You can play conservative Just to win. With a card and scores entered in the clubhouse you cannot.
		
Click to expand...

During a round I specifically _don’t_ want to see how scoring is going...and never look at leaderboard before I go out in a comp.

On the card/no card...I use a card to record the gross scores of all players in my group for cross-checking at the end of the round. I also use a card to record my score during the round to enter it on the system on finishing.  And I only take my phone onto the course if I think my wife will need to contact me.


----------



## theoneandonly (May 4, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			The day that I am compelled to take a smartphone on the course will be the day I stop taking a smartphone on the course - in protest. In my opinion, smartphones or similar devices must never become a requirement of competitive golf. They have their uses, in particular during pandemics, but compulsory use in golf, never.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure there'll be a place for ye olde scorecard for a long time yet, mobile and physical scorecards can coexist quite happily. All I really got from this thread was that a few posters on here love to be confrontational and will go to ever more ridiculous legths to be so. 
The stuff about power cuts, wifi, x thousands on devices, app dev, wet screens and the like were a real hoot 😂😂😂


----------



## backwoodsman (May 4, 2021)

Just wondering if anyone else, other than me, has "practical issues" in using a phone for golf scoring?

First off, I'll say I like the idea - I'm not a Luddite and I'm a fan of technology and will use it whenever I can. And our swindle uses a great app for scoring, leaderboard etc. And I'll happily use the MyEG app for uploading WHS  scores etc. I have a moderately decent Samsung phone.  But out on the course ...

I need my reading glasses to see the screen
Glasses aside, the screen is really difficult to see in daylight. Forget it if its bright sunshine.
I have to unlock it every time I want to enter something
Don't like the phone in my pocket so have to ferret about in the bag every time - and want it in a deep (ish) bag pocket so it doesn't drop/bounce out.
Even in London the signal is variable
Etc

Now I know these are all minor things in their own right, and there are individual solutions  to each (except screen brightness is a real bugbear) but all together they just amount to "sod it, I'll use a card and do the electronic bit later..."  And for that, the PSI has nice big buttons & numbers. So I use a card and not the phone. I bet I'm not the only one?


----------



## ger147 (May 4, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Just wondering if anyone else, other than me, has "practical issues" in using a phone for golf scoring?

First off, I'll say I like the idea - I'm not a Ludfite and I'm a fan of technology and will use it whenever I can. And our swindle uses a great app for scoring, leaderboard etc. And I'll happily use the MyEG app for uploading WHS  scores etc. I have a moderately decent Samsung phone.  But out on the course ...

I need my reading glasses to see the screen
Glasses aside, the screen is really difficult to see in daylight. Forget it if its bright sunshine.
I have to unlock it every time I want to enter something
Don't like the phone in my pocket so have to ferret about in the bag every time - and want it in a deep (ish) bag pocket so it doesn't drop/bounce out.
Even in London the signal is variable
Etc

Now I know these are all minor things in their own right, and there are individual solutions  to each (except screen brightness is a real bugbear) but all together they just amount to "sod it, I'll use a card and do the electronic bit later..."  And for that, the PSI has nice big buttons & numbers. So I use a card and not the phone. I bet I'm not the only one?
		
Click to expand...

I still use a scorecard on course to record my scores and assume I will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. And since Covid, I just punch my scores into the app on my phone after the round then head home.

Perfectly happy with that arrangement and have no wish to change to using my phone for score recording on course.


----------



## rulefan (May 4, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I still use a scorecard on course to record my scores and assume I will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. And since Covid, I just punch my scores into the app on my phone after the round then head home.

Perfectly happy with that arrangement and have no wish to change to using my phone for score recording on course.
		
Click to expand...

And of course you don't have to use the club's preprinted card, you can use whatever suits you.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (May 4, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I still use a scorecard on course to record my scores and assume I will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. And since Covid, I just punch my scores into the app on my phone after the round then head home.

Perfectly happy with that arrangement and have no wish to change to using my phone for score recording on course.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is a very simple and easy solution, and the most likely going forward. I leave my phone in the car when I play and can see that getting it out of the bag each time, unlocking, enter score, lock, put back etc is a bit of a faff. Simple paper and pencil works well, as Rulefan mentions, any bit of paper. Entering via your phone afterwards, sat in the comfort of the bar sounds much nicer than occasionally having to stand in a queue for the terminal (although it isn't that onerous 9 times out of 10). For those that object now, I understand some of the reasoning, it will become as standard as BRS is now and people will look back and smile at the objections in years to come.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think this is a very simple and easy solution, and the most likely going forward. I leave my phone in the car when I play and can see that getting it out of the bag each time, unlocking, enter score, lock, put back etc is a bit of a faff. Simple paper and pencil works well, as Rulefan mentions, any bit of paper. Entering via your phone afterwards, sat in the comfort of the bar sounds much nicer than occasionally having to stand in a queue for the terminal (although it isn't that onerous 9 times out of 10). For those that object now, I understand some of the reasoning, it will become as standard as BRS is now and people will look back and smile at the objections in years to come.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree.
But I do take my phone )on silent for emergency use.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (May 4, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Totally agree.
But I do take my phone )on silent for emergency use.
		
Click to expand...

I used to take it in my bag, not use it but have it there just in case. I stopped not long after downloading the NHS app as I heard of a few golfers getting caught out by bags being within 2m of each other and so getting pinged to isolate when in person that was not the case. Those stories may have been urban myths but it sounded plausible. It would have been a rubbish way to have to stay home for however long it is.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I used to take it in my bag, not use it but have it there just in case. I stopped not long after downloading the NHS app as I heard of a few golfers getting caught out by bags being within 2m of each other and so getting pinged to isolate when in person that was not the case. Those stories may have been urban myths but it sounded plausible. It would have been a rubbish way to have to stay home for however long it is.
		
Click to expand...

One more unintended consequence of tech.


----------



## BiMGuy (May 4, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			One more unintended consequence of tech.
		
Click to expand...

Not if you just turn bluetooth off or put it on flight mode.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Not if you just turn bluetooth off or put it on flight mode.
		
Click to expand...

No wonder the £60 m track and trace didn’t work then.


----------



## sunshine (May 4, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			A major problem for not having scorecards is this. On the IG app you see how the scoring is going, you can see who is winning, you can see how many points you need after 15,16 holes to win. You can play conservative Just to win. With a card and scores entered in the clubhouse you cannot.
		
Click to expand...

Why is this a major problem?

If you are winning a football match 2-0 with 5 minutes to go, you can play conservative to see out time to win. In pretty much every sport you know what the score is. In professional golf there are scoreboards all over the course. In match play you know the score. I cannot fathom why knowing the score is a problem.


----------



## sunshine (May 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe read what is being posted - we have members that “don’t have a smart phone” - we have members that don’t even have a mobile at all , some that don’t have internet and a good number that don’t have emails etc.

believe the last census was 30% of over 55 year olds don’t have a smart phone - average age of many golf clubs is over 55

https://www.statista.com/statistics/956297/ownership-of-smartphones-uk/

https://www.finder.com/uk/mobile-internet-statistics

Census last year

Last year we had about 50% of people entering via the IG app and the trend has continued this year
		
Click to expand...

The link you shared (thanks) shows 84% of UK adults use a smartphone. That's a pretty high number, but given the aging demographic of most golf clubs it's perhaps premature to make electronic scorecards mandatory.

These members that don't have a mobile or email at all are just trying to be awkward. They probably have no problem using tech like electric trolleys and GPS when it suits them.

I think a pencil and card will be around for a long time to come. But dropping a card in a box and expecting somebody else to upload your score for competition / handicap purposes seems a bit outdated today.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 4, 2021)

sunshine said:



			The link you shared (thanks) shows 84% of UK adults use a smartphone. That's a pretty high number, but given the aging demographic of most golf clubs it's perhaps premature to make electronic scorecards mandatory.

These members that don't have a mobile or email at all are just trying to be awkward. They probably have no problem using tech like electric trolleys and GPS when it suits them.

I think a pencil and card will be around for a long time to come. But dropping a card in a box and expecting somebody else to upload your score for competition / handicap purposes seems a bit outdated today.
		
Click to expand...

So somebody who has never owned a mobile phone in their life is just trying to be awkward.??
What a really poor statement.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2021)

sunshine said:



			The link you shared (thanks) shows 84% of UK adults use a smartphone. That's a pretty high number, but given the aging demographic of most golf clubs it's perhaps premature to make electronic scorecards mandatory.

These members that don't have a mobile or email at all are just trying to be awkward. They probably have no problem using tech like electric trolleys and GPS when it suits them.

I think a pencil and card will be around for a long time to come. But dropping a card in a box and expecting somebody else to upload your score for competition / handicap purposes seems a bit outdated today.
		
Click to expand...

That link also shows how many over the age of 55 don’t use a smart phone - the average age of the club golfer is over 55 - it’s easy to do the maths 

We have multiple members who just don’t own mobile phones and some don’t have smart phones 

They have never had a GPS in their life and an electric trolley that’s about 10 years old isn’t that high tech. 

They are just a different generation whose life didn’t revolve around mobile phones etc - as I said earlier I know at least three who don’t even have the internet at home - just a plain old landline 

They aren’t “trying to be awkward” - they just don’t want a life full of electronic gadgets - and the need for one shouldn’t ever rule a golf club


----------



## Imurg (May 4, 2021)

@richart...it appears that you're just not trying.....


----------



## sunshine (May 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That link also shows how many over the age of 55 don’t use a smart phone - the average age of the club golfer is over 55 - it’s easy to do the maths

We have multiple members who just don’t own mobile phones and some don’t have smart phones

They have never had a GPS in their life and an electric trolley that’s about 10 years old isn’t that high tech.

They are just a different generation whose life didn’t revolve around mobile phones etc - as I said earlier I know at least three who don’t even have the internet at home - just a plain old landline

They aren’t “trying to be awkward” - they just don’t want a life full of electronic gadgets - and the need for one shouldn’t ever rule a golf club
		
Click to expand...

I was agreeing with you that it's too early to make electronic mandatory. Still quite a few of the older generation not ready to accept technology.

However, society is moving forward and getting to the point where electronic devices are essential. Things change. You can't step on a bus and buy a bus ticket any more. Most golf clubs have a cashless bar and members use their club card. Some people will use technology when it suits them but resist it when it requires a bit of change.

Asking someone to spend a couple of minutes entering a score online does not equate to "a life full of electronic gadgets". I'm sure these people are generally capable of operating the remote control on their tv, the air-con in their car, etc.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 4, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Why is this a major problem?

If you are winning a football match 2-0 with 5 minutes to go, you can play conservative to see out time to win. In pretty much every sport you know what the score is. In professional golf there are scoreboards all over the course. In match play you know the score. I cannot fathom why knowing the score is a problem.
		
Click to expand...

Why should you be able to see how others are going on  in a golf comp. to quote a football match between two teams  as an example 🤔 professional golf is a bit different me finks. I know for a fact we finish golf for 1.30am and people do not go in comps
 “ coz 42 points is winning it“.


----------



## upsidedown (May 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That link also shows how many over the age of 55 don’t use a smart phone - the average age of the club golfer is over 55 - it’s easy to do the maths

We have multiple members who just don’t own mobile phones and some don’t have smart phones

They have never had a GPS in their life and an electric trolley that’s about 10 years old isn’t that high tech.

They are just a different generation whose life didn’t revolve around mobile phones etc - as I said earlier I know at least three who don’t even have the internet at home - just a plain old landline

They aren’t “trying to be awkward” - they just don’t want a life full of electronic gadgets - and the need for one shouldn’t ever rule a golf club
		
Click to expand...

Have to say our club is total opposite, you cant get them off their smart phones 😉😅 and all have latest GPS gizmos but you're right there should be provisions for all members even the non tech savvy


----------



## jim8flog (May 4, 2021)

At my age and with my eyesight I would always want a score card for on the course scoring. I can see my own writing without the need for reading glasses the same is not true of a phone app. 

I have a smart phone and use it to transfer the scores from my card to the club computer sometimes and other times I use the PSI screen. The IG app can take quite bit of getting used to and it would certainly slow up the round for a lot of players if they had to do in play scoring. W

What happens if you have forgotten to charge your phone.

My phone case contains things I would not want exposed to the rain.


----------



## sunshine (May 5, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Why should you be able to see how others are going on  in a golf comp. to quote a football match between two teams  as an example 🤔 professional golf is a bit different me finks. I know for a fact we finish golf for 1.30am and people do not go in comps
“ coz 42 points is winning it“.
		
Click to expand...

I'm struggling to understand your reply. Sorry.

The only bit I can partially understand is your first sentence: "Why should you be able to see how others are going on in a golf comp to quote a football match between two teams  as an example ." That's not an answer or a reason though. If it is a question, then I'll answer it: because in every sport I can think of, competitors know their opponents score. It's a fundamental part of competing.

Imagine if you were watching the long jump, but the officials kept the measured jumps secret so nobody knew who was winning until the competition had finished. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?


----------



## Tashyboy (May 5, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I'm struggling to understand your reply. Sorry.

The only bit I can partially understand is your first sentence: "Why should you be able to see how others are going on in a golf comp to quote a football match between two teams  as an example ." That's not an answer or a reason though. If it is a question, then I'll answer it: because in every sport I can think of, competitors know their opponents score. It's a fundamental part of competing.

Imagine if you were watching the long jump, but the officials kept the measured jumps secret so nobody knew who was winning until the competition had finished. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?
		
Click to expand...

Before we entered scores on our phones, we entered our scores on a card and put them in a box. How did you know who was winning. For a couple of years, scores were entered on cards. Then on a computer at our clubhouse. If you wanted to know who was winning when you turned up at the course you have to look on the club computer. yet you compare it to the long jump 😳

You talk about the older generation not being able to accept technology. On the basis of what? What evidence rather than opinion. How do you think they book a tee time on IG. Laptops, iPhones, computers. The same as everyone else. Maybe just maybe they are an elderly generation that do not like to see phones on the golf course. But now everyone has to have one.


----------



## IainP (May 5, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Why should you be able to see how others are going on  in a golf comp. to quote a football match between two teams  as an example 🤔 professional golf is a bit different me finks. *I know for a fact we finish golf for 1.30am* and people do not go in comps
“ coz 42 points is winning it“.
		
Click to expand...

That's some round!


----------



## Tashyboy (May 5, 2021)

IainP said:



			That's some round!
		
Click to expand...

😁😁😁😁😁😁😁


----------



## sunshine (May 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Before we entered scores on our phones, we entered our scores on a card and put them in a box. How did you know who was winning. For a couple of years, scores were entered on cards. Then on a computer at our clubhouse. If you wanted to know who was winning when you turned up at the course you have to look on the club computer. yet you compare it to the long jump 😳
		
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is that you prefer a system which doesn't allow you to see scores, because that was all that was available in the olden days. You can't see that this situation is different from every other sport I can think of.

Your only argument is that use of technology is bad because it provides the opportunity to do something that couldn't be done in the past. Life must be really hard for you without useful inventions like the wheel.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 6, 2021)

We have had live leaderboard for the past two years - not once had someone pulled out because of the scores they have seen on the leaderboard - why would someone pull out if they saw the scores in ? Are they only interested in winning the comp


----------



## Old Skier (May 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have had live leaderboard for the past two years - not once had someone pulled out because of the scores they have seen on the leaderboard - why would someone pull out if they saw the scores in ? Are they only interested in winning the comp
		
Click to expand...

We have been asked by the comps committee to delay the LB function for a couple of hours but I cant see it ever affecting entries.


----------



## IanM (May 6, 2021)

sunshine said:



			So what you are saying is that you prefer a system which doesn't allow you to see scores, because that was all that was available in the olden days. You can't see that this situation is different from every other sport I can think of.

Your only argument is that use of technology is bad because it provides the opportunity to do something that couldn't be done in the past. Life must be really hard for you without useful inventions like the wheel.
		
Click to expand...

That's how I read it.  Surely there will be a point where pencils and paper are not required for scoring.  Covid has meant no swapping of cards, or signatures, just confirmation between players of scores. 

I played in a charity day shotgun (pre-covid) where they asked you to key your score on an App after each hole and there were live leaderboards around the course.

I also played last week without a tie and tweed jacket!


----------



## BiMGuy (May 6, 2021)

IanM said:



			That's how I read it.  Surely there will be a point where pencils and paper are not required for scoring.  Covid has meant no swapping of cards, or signatures, just confirmation between players of scores. 

I played in a charity day shotgun (pre-covid) where they asked you to key your score on an App after each hole and there were live leaderboards around the course.

I also played last week without a tie and tweed jacket! 

Click to expand...

I do love a traditionalist.
Especially those who stick to only using the most traditional of golfing equipment. Such as, an electric trolley, gps watch and a bag full of exotic metals and composites.


----------



## sunshine (May 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have had live leaderboard for the past two years - not once had someone pulled out because of the scores they have seen on the leaderboard - why would someone pull out if they saw the scores in ? Are they only interested in winning the comp
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. It seems crazy that people would turn around and go home because they have seen a good score on the leaderboard.


----------



## peld (May 6, 2021)

i wont be using a scorecard again after a recent fiasco:

On the Saturday, I played in the club stableford. Course handicap was 15, scored 38 pts.  Looking like i won our whatsapp £10 sweep ahead of a guy with 37pts, Used a normal paper scorecard
On Sunday, played a bounce game with a mate and logged it on the WHS app - played very very well. 
On Monday morning, WHS app updates my hcp to give a course handicap of 13. (it changed materially as I only have about a dozen or counting scores so taking the best 3 or 4 rather than 8).

It takes the club until Wednesday to publish the Stableford results, but shows me with a 13hcp and therefore only 36pts. Lots of arguments about the sweep ensue. End up giving it all to charity.
Pester the club every day to look at it (club is a farce at the moment) but basically say they cant make any edits because its all on the WHS database.

Utter joke, so ill be using the IG app for scorecards from now on to prevent the above.


----------



## AliMc (May 6, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Exactly. It seems crazy that people would turn around and go home because they have seen a good score on the leaderboard.
		
Click to expand...

We have had this for a few years too, I've been playing most of the very few medals i play in late afternoon, this has saved me a few quid as I can see what gross & net scores are already in and haven't entered the sweeps as I know I've no  chance of winning anything so just pay my entry fee and 2's sweep


----------



## IanM (May 6, 2021)

peld said:



			i wont be using a scorecard again after a recent fiasco:

On the Saturday, I played in the club stableford. Course handicap was 15, scored 38 pts.  Looking like i won our whatsapp £10 sweep ahead of a guy with 37pts, Used a normal paper scorecard
On Sunday, played a bounce game with a mate and logged it on the WHS app - played very very well.
On Monday morning, WHS app updates my hcp to give a course handicap of 13. (it changed materially as I only have about a dozen or counting scores so taking the best 3 or 4 rather than 8).
		
Click to expand...

If I understand you correctly, it applied a handicap from a couple of days after the comp because that's when the club close out the comp?  That is daft


----------



## Griffsters (May 6, 2021)

peld said:



			i wont be using a scorecard again after a recent fiasco:

On the Saturday, I played in the club stableford. Course handicap was 15, scored 38 pts.  Looking like i won our whatsapp £10 sweep ahead of a guy with 37pts, Used a normal paper scorecard
On Sunday, played a bounce game with a mate and logged it on the WHS app - played very very well.
On Monday morning, WHS app updates my hcp to give a course handicap of 13. (it changed materially as I only have about a dozen or counting scores so taking the best 3 or 4 rather than 8).

It takes the club until Wednesday to publish the Stableford results, but shows me with a 13hcp and therefore only 36pts. Lots of arguments about the sweep ensue. End up giving it all to charity.
Pester the club every day to look at it (club is a farce at the moment) but basically say they cant make any edits because its all on the WHS database.

Utter joke, so ill be using the IG app for scorecards from now on to prevent the above.
		
Click to expand...

So, if I have this right, you don't enter your scorecards in VIA PSI or smartphone app on the day? That's nuts if so!


----------



## Tashyboy (May 6, 2021)

sunshine said:



			So what you are saying is that you prefer a system which doesn't allow you to see scores, because that was all that was available in the olden days. You can't see that this situation is different from every other sport I can think of.

Your only argument is that use of technology is bad because it provides the opportunity to do something that couldn't be done in the past. Life must be really hard for you without useful inventions like the wheel.
		
Click to expand...

No it’s not the only reason ,but seeing as your unable to accept that someone else may have a different opinion without chucking out personal insults al refrain from trying to discuss with you. 



sunshine said:



			Exactly. It seems crazy that people would turn around and go home because they have seen a good score on the leaderboard.
		
Click to expand...

This is why I won’t discuss it with you. I said people have not entered competitions because they know what the winning scores are. Where did I say people have turned around and gone home. Your untruths lead to the forum troll liking your posts.


----------



## sunshine (May 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			No it’s not the only reason ,but seeing as your unable to accept that someone else may have a different opinion without chucking out personal insults al refrain from trying to discuss with you.



This is why I won’t discuss it with you. I said people have not entered competitions because they know what the winning scores are. Where did I say people have turned around and gone home. Your untruths lead to the forum troll liking your posts.
		
Click to expand...

You've lost me. Who is the forum troll? Is it IanM or Davidy233?

I can't see where I've dished out any personal insults, but if I've offended you then I apologise.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 6, 2021)

sunshine said:



*You've lost me. Who is the forum troll? Is it IanM or Davidy233?*

I can't see where I've dished out any personal insults, but if I've offended you then I apologise.
		
Click to expand...

He is talking about me - he didn’t like being challenged on a number of subjects so I think I’m on ignore but that doesn’t stop him posting derogatory comments about posters


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 6, 2021)

Wow, what a great thread, really interesting views and opinions. Written cards and scores entered on electronic devices. Both are useful in their own way. When I was gainfully employed, not so long ago, we used to refer to this type of thing as "hard copy" and "soft copy". I think I will still be using printed cards until the year that the government ceases to produce printed legislation for the monarch to sign. If it happens sooner, I'm sure I will adapt.


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have had live leaderboard for the past two years - not once had someone pulled out because of the scores they have seen on the leaderboard - why would someone pull out if they saw the scores in ? Are they only interested in winning the comp
		
Click to expand...

 I have seen it happen in our club champs for the second round.


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

peld said:



			i wont be using a scorecard again after a recent fiasco:

On the Saturday, I played in the club stableford. Course handicap was 15, scored 38 pts.  Looking like i won our whatsapp £10 sweep ahead of a guy with 37pts, Used a normal paper scorecard
On Sunday, played a bounce game with a mate and logged it on the WHS app - played very very well.
On Monday morning, WHS app updates my hcp to give a course handicap of 13. (it changed materially as I only have about a dozen or counting scores so taking the best 3 or 4 rather than 8).

It takes the club until Wednesday to publish the Stableford results, but shows me with a 13hcp and therefore only 36pts. Lots of arguments about the sweep ensue. End up giving it all to charity.
Pester the club every day to look at it (club is a farce at the moment) but basically say they cant make any edits because its all on the WHS database.

Utter joke, so ill be using the IG app for scorecards from now on to prevent the above.
		
Click to expand...


The club should be applying your handicap as it was on the day of the competition not the day of processing the 'cards'. Take it up with whoever is responsible . The ISV system has a button 'amend handicap for this round/competition only' or similar and the person processing the scores needs to do this.

AS you are aware if you use any app or PSI your handicap will amend the next day automatically. So always using the App will not prevent the same situation arising.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I have seen it happen in our club champs for the second round.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean people have played the first round - seen the scores and then not bothered playing the second round ?

We used to have that until we gave comp bans for people that didn’t play the second round without good enough reason if they made the cut


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you mean people have played the first round - seen the scores and then not bothered playing the second round ?

We used to have that until we gave comp bans for people that didn’t play the second round without good enough reason if they made the cut
		
Click to expand...

Yes. We had one comp in particular where the rounds were not played the same day in the handicap comp, somebody (who was newly handicapped)* had returned a ridiculously low score and it put a few off playing the second round. 

* There were a lot of comments about his handicap and we undertook a thorough investigation in to it because several players had insinuated he had played for years and had held a h/cap previously but had not told us of it.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (May 7, 2021)

It is interesting the comments being made about a live leaderboard. I once helped give out cards and then take them in for my club Open, 4BBB. I was told not to tell anyone collecting their card the current leading score. Apparently there were some players in the area who would book very late tee times and who would often come in a point or 2 ahead of the leader at the time. Suspiciously consistent at it............ It's a shame as a live leaderboard gives a professional aspect to a comp.


----------



## Crazyface (May 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is interesting the comments being made about a live leaderboard. I once helped give out cards and then take them in for my club Open, 4BBB. I was told not to tell anyone collecting their card the current leading score. Apparently there were some players in the area who would book very late tee times and who would often come in a point or 2 ahead of the leader at the time. Suspiciously consistent at it............ It's a shame as a live leaderboard gives a professional aspect to a comp.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sat here trying to think of a way round this, but can't. Real shame. A live leaderboard in comps would be great. They used to do this at my last place using HOWDIDIDO, but those playing in an afternoon would check what was winning and if it was a good score, would withdraw from the comp and just have a knock amongst themselves


----------



## peld (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			The club should be applying your handicap as it was on the day of the competition not the day of processing the 'cards'. Take it up with whoever is responsible . The ISV system has a button 'amend handicap for this round/competition only' or similar and the person processing the scores needs to do this.

AS you are aware if you use any app or PSI your handicap will amend the next day automatically. So always using the App will not prevent the same situation arising.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.
Club acknowledged the issue but done Sweet FA to resolve it.  They said they cant just amend it. (FYI for background, our proper secretary left at the start of lockdown last year, and since then the scoring and hcps has done been done on the side of other peoples desks - very unprofessional).
As I said ill always be using the IG app for live scoring now to prevent such cock ups


----------



## peld (May 7, 2021)

Griffsters said:



			So, if I have this right, you don't enter your scorecards in VIA PSI or smartphone app on the day? That's nuts if so!
		
Click to expand...

We have the option to do either. App was brought in last year due to COVID.  TBH I always like doing it the old way, as it is a faff on the phone as it keeps closing the app. But what ill think ill do tomorrow is start scoring on my phone, but then mark my card, then enter the score at the end.

Sorry i would say the PSI has been off through COVID - it could be back open this weekend given the hotels & gym reopened


----------



## HampshireHog (May 7, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I'm sat here trying to think of a way round this, but can't. Real shame. A live leaderboard in comps would be great. They used to do this at my last place using HOWDIDIDO, but those playing in an afternoon would check what was winning and if it was a good score, would withdraw from the comp and just have a knock amongst themselves
		
Click to expand...

These sound like the worst type of golfers, I think I might start entering my net scores as I go round and correct them in the club house later.  See how many withdraw or crumble under the pressure.


----------



## SatchFan (May 7, 2021)

My primary reason for entering comps was to get a handicap cut, prizes were just a bonus. Certainly wouldn't put me off if a live scoreboard showed someone ten under handicap. I'd just be thinking conditions must be good out there, but I guess we all have our different motivations. Regarding cards maybe we will all eventually carry an electronic scorepad around with us. There's an idea for Dragon's Den.


----------



## peld (May 7, 2021)

to be honest competitions are the only way to get a weekend morning tee time at our place


----------



## Lord Tyrion (May 7, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			My primary reason for entering comps was to get a handicap cut, prizes were just a bonus. Certainly wouldn't put me off if a live scoreboard showed someone ten under handicap. I'd just be thinking conditions must be good out there, but I guess we all have our different motivations. *Regarding cards maybe we will all eventually carry an electronic scorepad around with us. There's an idea for Dragon's Den.*

Click to expand...

Surely an app on a phone fills that criteria easier and cheaper than a bespoke product? It is pretty much already here by all accounts (my club wont allow the EG app for scoring but from the sound of it that is doing the job right now)


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surely an app on a phone fills that criteria easier and cheaper than a bespoke product? It is pretty much already here by all accounts (my club wont allow the EG app for scoring but from the sound of it that is doing the job right now)
		
Click to expand...

The IG app does it - the only thing missing is a way for marker verification but I have no doubt that will be next


----------



## SatchFan (May 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surely an app on a phone fills that criteria easier and cheaper than a bespoke product? It is pretty much already here by all accounts (my club wont allow the EG app for scoring but from the sound of it that is doing the job right now)
		
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right but there is still the issue of people being required to carry their own smartphones around with them, of which some are still resistant, and I must confess that would include me.


----------



## Bdill93 (May 7, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			You're absolutely right but there is still the issue of people being required to carry their own smartphones around with them, of which some are still resistant, and I must confess that would include me.
		
Click to expand...

I actually enjoy the time on course without looking at my phone - its a nice break from it all.

If I had to put scores in after every hole - id end up pinging messages to various group chats too, its just what happens when I unlock my phone!


----------



## peld (May 7, 2021)

I dont like using my phone either, so as I said above, what i will start to do is "start" scoring on the IG app, then put it away and use a normal card, then at the end use the app to enter my score. Best of both worlds i think


----------



## Lord Tyrion (May 7, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			You're absolutely right but there is still the issue of people being required to carry their own smartphones around with them, of which some are still resistant, and I must confess that would include me.
		
Click to expand...




peld said:



			I dont like using my phone either, so as I said above, what i will start to do is "start" scoring on the IG app, then put it away and use a normal card, then at the end use the app to enter my score. Best of both worlds i think
		
Click to expand...

I'm with both of you really, I don't keep my phone in my bag for example. I think how Peld is doing it is spot on and what I would do if it were possible at my place.


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surely an app on a phone fills that criteria easier and cheaper than a bespoke product? It is pretty much already here by all accounts (my club wont allow the EG app for scoring but from the sound of it that is doing the job right now)
		
Click to expand...

 Maybe sometime in the future a device designed to do one job (golf scorecard) will be a lot cheaper than a multifunction smartphone and very cheap when about 200 are bought for a golf club in one go.


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

One thing I would add is that in the middle of winter with nearly frozen hands there is no way I would want to have to start messing around with a mobile phone. Off  with mitts play the shot and back on with the mitts as fast as possible.


----------



## davidy233 (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			One thing I would add is that in the middle of winter with nearly frozen hands there is no way I would want to have to start messing around with a mobile phone. Off  with mitts play the shot and back on with the mitts as fast as possible.
		
Click to expand...

Hey Siri - 5th hole put me down for a six - simples


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Hey Siri - 5th hole put me down for a six - simples
		
Click to expand...

I use a buggy. Any phone would be in the bag zipped up in a pocket.

Who is Siri anyway?


----------



## Bdill93 (May 7, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Hey Siri - 5th hole put me down for a six - simples
		
Click to expand...

You're on to something here....


----------



## mikejohnchapman (May 7, 2021)

I asked England Golf about scorecards as we were considering a spring clean post lockdown - here is their reply:

_Yes you are required to keep a copy of scorecards (Digital or Paper Copies) for the last season (1st Jan to 31 Dec) and current season.

Regards, Carol Price_

So assuming the major ISVs keep a full record of the score this confirms you don't need scorecards. Unfortunately the current state of Club V1 doesn't store all the details for General Play rounds so we will have to keep them in paper form.


----------



## davidy233 (May 7, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			You're on to something here....
		
Click to expand...

Need an Apple watch as well though - sod getting the phone out to do it.


----------



## Bdill93 (May 7, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Need an Apple watch as well though - sod getting the phone out to do it.
		
Click to expand...

Oh ive got one already...


----------



## BiMGuy (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I use a buggy. Any phone would be in the bag zipped up in a pocket.

Who is Siri anyway?
		
Click to expand...

Alexa's older sister.


----------



## Radbourne2010 (May 7, 2021)

brfcfan said:



			I am the comp sec at our club and after each comp I count the returned cards see if they are signed etc etc.

I think that this could be done electronically, with electronic signatures, saving the need for players to input their score on the main terminal and comp secs the time in counting cards and time in finding out who hasn't returned a card.

Would this method be allowed under the current CONGU rules, and if so has any clubs used this method or thinking about it?
		
Click to expand...

Interesting issue occurred in our Wed Stableford at my club this week. I dashed to the tee swapped score cards with my playing partner (who wasn't in the Comp), declared that I was in the Comp & proceeded to play. Halfway round in a hailstorm we hid in the Halfway House where my playing partner told me I had 17 points on the front nine. I hadn't looked at my phone since leaving the car park so looked to see if I'd actually booked in on HDID. I hadn't! 
My partner said it wouldn't matter as I declared entry on the 1st Tee & he had scored my round accordingly. 
I received a snooty email from the Club Captain with a cc to the Secretary & Vice-Captain admonishing me for failing to log-in before my round, with the inference I was cheating in doing so. I explained the above to them & scanned my signed card (attached) only for them to DQ me from the Comp & delete my round for handicap purposes!

Beware, the online Police are after us...


----------



## davidy233 (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I use a buggy. Any phone would be in the bag zipped up in a pocket.

Who is Siri anyway?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Lord Tyrion (May 7, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Maybe sometime in the future a device designed to do one job (golf scorecard) will be a lot cheaper than a multifunction smartphone and very cheap when about 200 are bought for a golf club in one go.
		
Click to expand...

That is assuming most do not or will not have a smartphone. I can't see a decline in smartphones, quite the opposite. I suspect 95% of groups will have at least one member in the group with a smartphone. Why buy devices for those who already have and will continue to have phones? The stragglers can simply tap away on a club device when they get back in the clubhouse.


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is assuming most do not or will not have a smartphone. I can't see a decline in smartphones, quite the opposite. I suspect 95% of groups will have at least one member in the group with a smartphone. Why buy devices for those who already have and will continue to have phones? The stragglers can simply tap away on a club device when they get back in the clubhouse.
		
Click to expand...

From about 1977 onwards a lot of people had electronic calculators on their desk in their briefcase etc. Don't see much of them now. Devices have moved on. Smartphones could be a thing of the past in 20 years, in a similar way, replaced by something or things that are quite different and superior, we just won't know until it happens. Scores on a card, entered electronically at end of round - small changes to this are just that -small changes. Big changes are in the future and we can only speculate, after all.


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

davidy233 said:









Click to expand...


 Explains why I do not know who Siri is


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			From about 1977 onwards a lot of people had electronic calculators on their desk in their briefcase etc. Don't see much of them now. Devices have moved on. Smartphones could be a thing of the past in 20 years, in a similar way, replaced by something or things that are quite different and superior, we just won't know until it happens. Scores on a card, entered electronically at end of round - small changes to this are just that -small changes. Big changes are in the future and we can only speculate, after all.
		
Click to expand...

In 20 years time I wont have to worry about it

Maybe there will have self driving golf balls by then. Toss a dice, oops sorry press a button on your device, and it tells the golf ball where to go based upon a random choice.


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			In 20 years time I wont have to worry about it

Maybe there will have self driving golf balls by then. Toss a dice, oops sorry press a button on your device, and it tells the golf ball where to go based upon a random choice.
		
Click to expand...

...and if I still had my Etch-a-Sketch from when I was a boy, I could use that every round instead of so many cards.


----------



## IanM (May 7, 2021)

Tablet at the back of every green.  As you walk off, it knows it's you from your retina scan, you tell it how many shots you have taken.  Anything over net double, it laughs at you.  If appropriate, it tells you to get a "blankety blank" move on!!  On the 18th it tells you how you did and updates the newly reinstated CONGU Handicap System.  WHS of course was abandoned following the PCC/Course Rating riots of 2026. 

It's the future.  You heard it here first.


----------



## rulefan (May 7, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I asked England Golf about scorecards as we were considering a spring clean post lockdown - here is their reply:

_Yes you are required to keep a copy of scorecards (Digital or Paper Copies) for the last season (1st Jan to 31 Dec) and current season._

_Regards, Carol Price_

So assuming the major ISVs keep a full record of the score this confirms you don't need scorecards. Unfortunately the current state of Club V1 doesn't store all the details for General Play rounds so we will have to keep them in paper form.
		
Click to expand...

The WHS does though.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The WHS does though.
		
Click to expand...

My club doesn’t require a physical card to be submitted to support any score entered by the player onto our system - though it may require them for General Play rounds...

However i have a feeling not as when I have asked about the need for a physical card to be submitted no caveat was added along the lines of  ‘...except for a GP round when a card has to be submitted‘.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is interesting the comments being made about a live leaderboard. I once helped give out cards and then take them in for my club Open, 4BBB. I was told not to tell anyone collecting their card the current leading score. Apparently there were some players in the area who would book very late tee times and who would often come in a point or 2 ahead of the leader at the time. Suspiciously consistent at it............ It's a shame as a live leaderboard gives a professional aspect to a comp.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree, But be careful how you word that. I said exactly the same. But then had my words twisted in the sense that rather than some folk thought sod it i cant win. Al put me clubs back in the car and drive home. 
I don’t mind having a natter with you LT coz it will be educational. But some folks want to do well in a comp to lower there handicap. And you can put me in that bracket. Some want to clean up. 
Outta interest. And I don’t know the answer but I will ask at the course on Tuesday. But since the Covid return, we have been putting our scores on IG. So someone does not have to handle the cards. I wonder if it will be a permanent thing. Hmmmm.


----------



## jim8flog (May 7, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			...and if I still had my Etch-a-Sketch from when I was a boy, I could use that every round instead of so many cards.
		
Click to expand...

 You had an etch a sketch . I am so envious all they gave us was chalk and a piece of slate.


----------



## peld (May 7, 2021)

Radbourne2010 said:



			Interesting issue occurred in our Wed Stableford at my club this week. I dashed to the tee swapped score cards with my playing partner (who wasn't in the Comp), declared that I was in the Comp & proceeded to play. Halfway round in a hailstorm we hid in the Halfway House where my playing partner told me I had 17 points on the front nine. I hadn't looked at my phone since leaving the car park so looked to see if I'd actually booked in on HDID. I hadn't!
My partner said it wouldn't matter as I declared entry on the 1st Tee & he had scored my round accordingly.
I received a snooty email from the Club Captain with a cc to the Secretary & Vice-Captain admonishing me for failing to log-in before my round, with the inference I was cheating in doing so. I explained the above to them & scanned my signed card (attached) only for them to DQ me from the Comp & delete my round for handicap purposes!

Beware, the online Police are after us...

Click to expand...

shouldnt you have got 3 points on the 3rd (SI3) hole with your par?? perhaps they DQ'd you for signing for a wrong score!


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			You had an etch a sketch . I am so envious all they gave us was chalk and a piece of slate.

Click to expand...

Luxury!


----------



## williamalex1 (May 7, 2021)

Why are millions of voting ballot papers being counted within 12 hours, when golf score cards can't be touched/counted for at least 72 hours


----------



## Tashyboy (May 7, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			You had an etch a sketch . I am so envious all they gave us was chalk and a piece of slate.

Click to expand...

We could swop the four yorkshiremen monty python sketch for the four golfers sketch 😁


----------



## NearHull (May 7, 2021)

Radbourne2010 said:



			Interesting issue occurred in our Wed Stableford at my club this week. I dashed to the tee swapped score cards with my playing partner (who wasn't in the Comp), declared that I was in the Comp & proceeded to play. Halfway round *in a hailstorm we hid* in the Halfway House where my playing partner told me I had 17 points on the front nine. I hadn't looked at my phone since leaving the car park so looked to see if I'd actually booked in on HDID. I hadn't!
My partner said it wouldn't matter as I declared entry on the 1st Tee & he had scored my round accordingly.
I received a snooty email from the Club Captain with a cc to the Secretary & Vice-Captain admonishing me for failing to log-in before my round, with the inference I was cheating in doing so. I explained the above to them & scanned my signed card (attached) only for them to DQ me from the Comp & delete my round for handicap purposes

Isn’t sheltering from weather an issue?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 7, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			We could swop the four yorkshiremen *monty python* sketch for the four golfers sketch 😁
		
Click to expand...

The sketch was written by Tim Brooke-Taylor, John Cleese, Graham Chapman and Marty Feldman and originally performed on their TV series At Last the 1948 Show in 1967.

Lived in Wakefield from 1967 to 1971 so perhaps I could play one of the parts of the four golfers.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 7, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			The sketch was written by Tim Brooke-Taylor, John Cleese, Graham Chapman and Marty Feldman and originally performed on their TV series At Last the 1948 Show in 1967.

Lived in Wakefield from 1967 to 1971 so perhaps I could play one of the parts of the four golfers.
		
Click to expand...

Golf Monthly’s Take on four Yorkshireman aka Four golfers.
1, Voyager EMH aka Obadiah.
2,
3,
4,
Insert name above, must have a Yorkshire link.
 Choose your name Obadiah, Ezekiel, Josiah, and Hezekiah;
😁


----------



## BiMGuy (May 7, 2021)

IanM said:



			Tablet at the back of every green.  As you walk off, it knows it's you from your retina scan, you tell it how many shots you have taken.  Anything over net double, it laughs at you.  If appropriate, it tells you to get a "blankety blank" move on!!  On the 18th it tells you how you did and updates the newly reinstated CONGU Handicap System.  WHS of course was abandoned following the PCC/Course Rating riots of 2026. 

It's the future.  You heard it here first.
		
Click to expand...

Nah. Every club and ball will have sensors that automatically calculate your score as you play.


----------



## Voyager EMH (May 8, 2021)

Well, who would've thought, forty year ago, we'd be sitting here, talking about hand-held computers replacing scorecards?


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Nah. Every club and ball will have sensors that automatically calculate your score as you play.
		
Click to expand...

Ball would self destruct as soon as you have used your shot allowance.
So long walk back from 15th.


----------



## IanM (May 8, 2021)

Now you're getting creative!


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 8, 2021)

Balls that self destruct after 3 hrs 55 mins.
Just to speed things up.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Balls that self destruct after 3 hrs 55 mins.
Just to speed things up.
		
Click to expand...

My balls would blow up if I was still going after 3 hrs 55 😳


----------



## IainP (May 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Balls that self destruct after 3 hrs 55 mins.
Just to speed things up.
		
Click to expand...

I spot a flaw in your plan (for many golfers) 😁


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			My balls would blow up if I was still going after 3 hrs 55 😳
		
Click to expand...

Think you have your forums mixed up Tash.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Think you have your forums mixed up Tash.

Click to expand...

Deffo, the other forum you get a good thrashing not an infraction. 😁


----------



## davidy233 (May 8, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Well, who would've thought, forty year ago, we'd be sitting here, talking about hand-held computers replacing scorecards?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure we were promised jet packs by 2000 - they are late


----------



## tobybarker (May 8, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Why is this a major problem?

If you are winning a football match 2-0 with 5 minutes to go, you can play conservative to see out time to win. In pretty much every sport you know what the score is. In professional golf there are scoreboards all over the course. In match play you know the score. I cannot fathom why knowing the score is a problem.
		
Click to expand...

Because it's an advantage not open to those without a phone or the ability to use one? (If you see it as an advantage, of course)


----------



## tobybarker (May 8, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			I'm sure we were promised jet packs by 2000 - they are late
		
Click to expand...

Not true...look them up on YouTube


----------



## davidy233 (May 8, 2021)

tobybarker said:



			Not true...look them up on YouTube
		
Click to expand...

I know they exist now - like smart phones for older golfers - but they aren't as available to the ordinary person


----------



## rulefan (May 8, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			I know they exist now - like smart phones for older golfers - but they aren't as available to the ordinary person 

Click to expand...

Nor is an I-Phone at £1000+


----------



## davidy233 (May 9, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Nor is an I-Phone at £1000+
		
Click to expand...

Phones are available for much less than £1000


----------



## sunshine (May 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The IG app does it - the only thing missing is a way for marker verification but I have no doubt that will be next
		
Click to expand...

IG app has a way for the marker to verify the score. The marker can even upload the card he is marking and assign it to the player.


----------



## sunshine (May 10, 2021)

There is a simple answer to all of this. Use drones to fly over the course following each group and recording shots and scores. Drone footage can be used to resolve any rules queries and can monitor pace of play. You can also send the drone off to fetch your order from the half way hut.


----------



## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2021)

sunshine said:



			There is a simple answer to all of this. Use drones to fly over the course following each group and recording shots and scores. Drone footage can be used to resolve any rules queries and can monitor pace of play. You can also send the drone off to fetch your order from the half way hut.
		
Click to expand...

Your joking aren’t you.?
We can’t even open a packet of crisps without someone moaning 
Imagine a drone coming in for a close up?
Would make a cracking target off the tee though. I’m in.


----------



## Foxholer (May 10, 2021)

peld said:



			shouldnt you have got 3 points on the 3rd (SI3) hole with your par?? perhaps they DQ'd you for signing for a wrong score!
		
Click to expand...

That would only happen if he signed for a 'number of shots' score lower than actual. Having the correct S'ford score on a scorecard is not a player's responsibility.


----------



## sunshine (May 10, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Your joking aren’t you.?
We can’t even open a packet of crisps without someone moaning 
Imagine a drone coming in for a close up?
Would make a cracking target off the tee though. I’m in.
		
Click to expand...

The drone should hover above you or behind you so it can transmit your location via GPS and also monitor your swing and check you are not improving your lie or touching the sand in a bunker for example. We will need a new thread about where exactly the drone should be, like the HNSP thread. 

I'm sure we would all quickly become accustomed to the whir of the drone. Personally I don't find continuous noise off-putting, it's only sudden unexpected noises.


----------

