# England v India Series



## Lord Tyrion (Nov 9, 2016)

How good is Joe Root? For me the best English batsman I have seen. The consistency of scoring and how he scores, keeping the scoreboard ticking over constantly, is phenomenal. Genuinely world class.

I didn't see how Hameed actually played this morning but it is good to see him get a solid score. That will do his confidence the world of good.


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## patricks148 (Nov 9, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How good is Joe Root? For me the best English batsman I have seen. The consistency of scoring and how he scores, keeping the scoreboard ticking over constantly, is phenomenal. Genuinely world class.

I didn't see how Hameed actually played this morning but it is good to see him get a solid score. That will do his confidence the world of good.
		
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Root just looks head a shoulders above anyone else.... its always a surprise though when he gets out......

Mo's doing a good job as well looks solid


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 9, 2016)

great start for Root and Mo is on 99 ,hopefully at least 500 for us and then all out attack when we field .
the pitch will only get worse and we will definitely have had the best of it.


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## IM01 (Nov 9, 2016)

Good start from England, never believed the nonsense of a 5-0 whipping India aren't that good...should still win 

Young lad didn't look out of his depth....similar to Cook & Root on debut!!
Here's hoping:thup:


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## Tongo (Nov 9, 2016)

IM01 said:



			Good start from England, never believed the nonsense of a 5-0 whipping India aren't that good...should still win 

Young lad didn't look out of his depth....similar to Cook & Root on debut!!
Here's hoping:thup:
		
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Yeah, that silenced all the doom and gloom merchants! Joe Root is just class, although i'm sure Boycott will find a way to downgrade his performance. I listened to TMS early on and Hameed sounded like he was playing well and suited to test match cricket. Shame it took the England selectors two tests to realise he is a better option than Duckett to open.


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## drewster (Nov 9, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Yeah, that silenced all the doom and gloom merchants! Joe Root is just class, although i'm sure Boycott will find a way to downgrade his performance. I listened to TMS early on and Hameed sounded like he was playing well and suited to test match cricket. Shame it took the England selectors two tests to realise he is a better option than Duckett to open.
		
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Strange comment about Boycott. He loves Joe Root and sings his praises from the rooftops at every opportunity.  It's going to be an interesting series especially with the world's top two batsmen on show. Notwithstanding that Mo Ali will be the difference between us winning and losing , if he bowls as well as he did last time then we're in with a decent squeak.


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## pendodave (Nov 9, 2016)

drewster said:



			Strange comment about Boycott. He loves Joe Root and sings his praises from the rooftops at every opportunity.
		
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I thought the same. Boycott is a surprisingly generous and open minded pundit on the end of day show. Well, surprising to me growing up watching his rather one-eyed performances.

However many we get, I worry about the quality of our slow bowling and the fragility of our batting once root and cook are out. Hope I'm wrong.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2016)

Solid start and hope Moeen can get his single tomorrow. We need to kick on and then hope the bowlers can find a way to put an early marker down although I think it's going to be a long game for them and a lot of overs to be bowled


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## fundy (Nov 9, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Solid start and hope Moeen can get his single tomorrow. We need to kick on and then hope the bowlers can find a way to put an early marker down although I think it's going to be a long game for them and a lot of overs to be bowled
		
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not sure about kick on, just need to bat and bat and bat


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## Junior (Nov 9, 2016)

I'd have preferred Ball to Ansari. Other than that, a great start to the test.  Rode our luck a bit when India shelled a few early on though !!!

What does everyone think about Roots wicket ??? Not out for me.  Ball was never really in the palm of his hands.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 9, 2016)

Junior said:



			I'd have preferred Ball to Ansari. Other than that, a great start to the test.  Rode our luck a bit when India shelled a few early on though !!!

What does everyone think about Roots wicket ??? Not out for me.  Ball was never really in the palm of his hands.
		
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Out! After all it was in his hands long enough for him to toss it into the air. Also I understand that the rules no longer state that the catcher has to "be in control of the ball". It's left entirely to the umpire's interpretation.


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 9, 2016)

it looked like it wasnt in the palm of the hand at all ,more between his wrists,i think the slo mo gave him out as at full speed it never looked like any sort of control was had .


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## Tongo (Nov 10, 2016)

Great work Ben Stokes! Looks like it could be a big winter for him.


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## Paperboy (Nov 10, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Great work Ben Stokes! Looks like it could be a big winter for him.
		
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He walked off quite gingerly after getting out by all accounts.


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## fundy (Nov 10, 2016)

Paperboy said:



			He walked off quite gingerly after getting out by all accounts.
		
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sounds like was only cramp albeit quite bad, should be ok to bowl in the morning


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 10, 2016)

Need some wickets in the first session. If so we've a great chance


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## Piece (Nov 11, 2016)

Nice Brucey bonus of the late wickets for Eng. Bit of luck in the morning and we could have a lead.


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## Dan2501 (Nov 12, 2016)

Hameed has looked superb this morning. Composed, confident and completely at ease.


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## fundy (Nov 12, 2016)

Dan2501 said:



			Hameed has looked superb this morning. Composed, confident and completely at ease.
		
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not seen much of him but i know a couple of good judges rate him highly, plenty to like for sure, albeit hes going to find harder pitches to bat on ahead! Nice to see the right peg in the right hole too, Duckett opening in Bangladesh to accomodate Ballance at 4 looks even stranger than it did at the time now!


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## louise_a (Nov 12, 2016)

Great test debut from Hameed, good to see a Lancashire player doing well, the only down side is he looks set for a long test career which means he wont be playing for the county very much.


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## Tongo (Nov 12, 2016)

Hameed sounds / looks class. England in a good position to give India a couple of awkward sessions tomorrow.

And Australia got skittled out again!


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## Piece (Nov 12, 2016)

Hameed is good because he moves his feet. Ducked looks the opposite and is going to need a fantastic eye to stay in the side.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 12, 2016)

Good day for England but can't see anything other than a draw. Even if we get a quick 150 in the morning and give them a sporting declaration (not sure that's in the Cook mindset)  we won't get ten wickets on that pitch.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2016)

Decent effort by England and one more session and I think they'd have got a win.


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## Tongo (Nov 14, 2016)

Interesting all the chat about Cook not declaring early enough. I dont wholly agree with this. Yes, England had India 6 down by the close but i dont think anyone was predicting that England would go through the top order that quickly. Plus, Kohli at no point looked as if he was going to get out in either innings. It took him treading on his stumps first time round to get out but he looked at complete ease. He only needed a couple of players to stay with him and that total, or a lower total in more overs, would have been chaseable. 

Cook isnt the most attacking skipper but i wouldnt blame him for being cautious, not after all the hype about how England were going to get stuffed in the lead up to this test.


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## Piece (Nov 14, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Interesting all the chat about Cook not declaring early enough. I dont wholly agree with this. Yes, England had India 6 down by the close but i dont think anyone was predicting that England would go through the top order that quickly. Plus, Kohli at no point looked as if he was going to get out in either innings. It took him treading on his stumps first time round to get out but he looked at complete ease. He only needed a couple of players to stay with him and that total, or a lower total in more overs, would have been chaseable. 

Cook isnt the most attacking skipper but i wouldnt blame him for being cautious, not after all the hype about how England were going to get stuffed in the lead up to this test.
		
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Totally agree. I thought it was a good declaration, perhaps even more ambitious than expected. At time, all the pundits were happy at the time. Everyone is an expert after the event!


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## fundy (Nov 14, 2016)

anyone expecting an earlier declaration than that, on a very very flat deck (that was 1385/23 at that point!) in the first game of a 5 day series from the away captain was dreaming lol, if anything im surprised Cook wasnt even more careful


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## Piece (Nov 15, 2016)

Love it that Australia got spanked...again! Lost their last 5 tests.


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## Tongo (Nov 15, 2016)

Piece said:



			Love it that Australia got spanked...again! Lost their last 5 tests.
		
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Watched the highlights on the BT Sport twitter feed. Some of the shots were incredible. Doesnt look good for the Aussies as, Smith apart, nobody seems able to patiently compile an innings.


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## Tongo (Nov 17, 2016)

An ominous looking stand being built between Pujara and Kohli.


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## Piece (Nov 17, 2016)

I think we're in a pickle this test, all due to losing the toss. Pitch looks flat but starting to break-up already. We need to hang in there with our first innings.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 17, 2016)

Hoping to catch the highlights later but was there some late afternoon spin and movement? It looks like we could be chasing down a big first innings total


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## Piece (Nov 18, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hoping to catch the highlights later but was there some late afternoon spin and movement? It looks like we could be chasing down a big first innings total
		
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Not looking good....


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## Tongo (Nov 18, 2016)

Piece said:



			I think we're in a pickle this test, all due to losing the toss. Pitch looks flat but *starting to break-up already*. We need to hang in there with our first innings.
		
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There's something not quite right about a pitch not even lasting two days before crumbling into a lottery. It appears that this test will be decided by who won the toss. Not a great advert for test cricket.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 18, 2016)

Tongo said:



			There's something not quite right about a pitch not even lasting two days before crumbling into a lottery. It appears that this test will be decided by who won the toss. Not a great advert for test cricket.
		
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Fair comment. I think we can probably chalk this one off. Start again in the next match and hopefully it'll be a better and longer lasting pitch. Definitely not a good advert though


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## Tongo (Nov 19, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Fair comment. I think we can probably chalk this one off. Start again in the next match and hopefully it'll be a better and longer lasting pitch. Definitely not a good advert though
		
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Even if England lose this test i think they need to look at the fact that Kohli is the only Indian batsman who looks like scoring big runs consistently. Ashwin offers decent support but thats it. Would be interesting to see how India get on if England got Kohli early.


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## fundy (Nov 19, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Even if England lose this test i think they need to look at the fact that Kohli is the only Indian batsman who looks like scoring big runs consistently. Ashwin offers decent support but thats it. Would be interesting to see how India get on if England got Kohli early.
		
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bit harsh on Pujara who has 2 tons in 3 inns. Vijay also has a ton too. oh and we've not really looked like getting Kohli out, this 2nd inns its looked like hes playing on a different pitch

Far bigger issue is the lack of England batters who looks capable of a big score. When the Indians get in they get 100+, our guys seem to think the jobs done at 40 or 50

accepted, this was a massive toss to win, day 1 was def the best time to be batting


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 19, 2016)

fundy said:



			bit harsh on Pujara who has 2 tons in 3 inns. Vijay also has a ton too. oh and we've not really looked like getting Kohli out, this 2nd inns its looked like hes playing on a different pitch

Far bigger issue is the lack of England batters who looks capable of a big score. When the Indians get in they get 100+, our guys seem to think the jobs done at 40 or 50

accepted, this was a massive toss to win, day 1 was def the best time to be batting
		
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Definitely a big factor, the toss but at the end of the day we've not batted well enough or found a way to get the wickets quick enough. It's a big learning curve to play in these conditions so perhaps tough to be over critical on a young side


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## Tongo (Nov 20, 2016)

Good fight from England today. Shame the last Indian wicket yielded 30 odd runs but England havent crumbled. They will still probably lose this test, particularly with the late wickets, but have battled well so fair play to them. 

Kohli looks rather one dimensional with some of his tactics and India's attack looks toothless if Ashwin doesnt take wickets.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 20, 2016)

I was really impressed with England overall. Shame the last Indian wicket wagged and Cook went with five balls left. I think that dismissal will be pivotal but I hope England can find an unlikely way to eek out a draw


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 20, 2016)

its going to be tough for us now ,but ,we still have some quality batters to come ,lets hope  they can hold on for the draw.


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## Tongo (Nov 21, 2016)

Oh well! On to Mohali. Think Duckett may be getting a rest.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2016)

Very disappointing capitulation again


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## Tongo (Nov 21, 2016)

Quote from the Full Toss Twitter feed: 'India too good in their own back yard.' 

Sadly this will be overlooked by the ex-pros now putting the boot in with gusto. Is it any surprise that England crumble in spinning conditions when they rarely play in anything remotely close at home? 

Another Twitter quote: England lose by 246 runs. Kohli's contribution? 248 runs. 

TMs retweeted this. Honestly. When is sport ever that simple?! And they are supposed to be experts on the game!


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 21, 2016)

folded like a cheap suit, not that i could have done any better.


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## Piece (Nov 21, 2016)

Standard Indian wicket, with the result largely influenced by the toss. If the remaining pitches are similar, just hope we get lucky with the toss.

Duckett isn't good enough for these wickets. I'd argue he just isn't good enough full stop. Needs a lot of surgery on that technique. Only real option is to get Buttler in....not famed for this feet movement either!


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 21, 2016)

time to put Sam Billings in the team ,he played a lot of IPL last year so has experience of playing in India and of playing against the indian spinners.


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## Tongo (Nov 21, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			time to put Sam Billings in the team ,he played a lot of IPL last year so has experience of playing in India and of playing against the indian spinners.
		
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I'd imagine the average IPL track is set up a little differently than the test equivalents though. The IPL dont want to see teams skittled out for next to nothing. They want to see the bowlers dispatched into the stands on a regular basis.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			time to put Sam Billings in the team ,he played a lot of IPL last year so has experience of playing in India and of playing against the indian spinners.
		
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World of difference between test cricket and the IPL in regards both the pitches and the standard faced

Duckett does need to be taken out of the limelight - expect Buttler will come in

Also think Broad will miss out with his injury and Finn will come in


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## pendodave (Nov 21, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			World of difference between test cricket and the IPL in regards both the pitches and the standard faced

Duckett does need to be taken out of the limelight - expect Buttler will come in

Also think Broad will miss out with his injury and Finn will come in
		
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Agree that Duckett needs some time away. Now that Jimmy has officially given up batting, I wonder if Woakes might be a better shout. Though they were saying that the next pitch has some bounce, so might suit Finn better. If they are not going to bowl the left armer, perhaps both?


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## fundy (Nov 21, 2016)

pendodave said:



			Agree that Duckett needs some time away. Now that Jimmy has officially given up batting, I wonder if Woakes might be a better shout. Though they were saying that the next pitch has some bounce, so might suit Finn better. If they are not going to bowl the left armer, perhaps both?
		
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expect it will be a straight swap Woakes for Broad if the latter isnt fit (I expect they save him and hope to get him on the park in Mumbai)

as for Duckett, theyve dug themselves a hole here really. The extra batters they have in the party are the unselectable Ballance and the reserve keeper Buttler (who was dropped for not getting enough runs too)  that they didnt bring another proper top 4 batter after the bangladesh tour appeared a poor decision at the time and looks even worse now, that said not sure who they bring in either!

big argument that a couple of those batting down the order are going to have to step up and bat higher up 

could see a line up of Cook, Hameed, Root, Moeen, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler, Woakes, Rashid, Ansari/Finn, Andersen

whilst we are strong with all rounders, we definitely lack out and out batting options (not to mentions spinners!)


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2016)

The lack of decent spinner ( offspin ) out there makes the choice of Batty and Ansari even more wrong - neither spin the ball enough to be attacking spinners


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2016)

fundy said:



			expect it will be a straight swap Woakes for Broad if the latter isnt fit (I expect they save him and hope to get him on the park in Mumbai)

as for Duckett, theyve dug themselves a hole here really. The extra batters they have in the party are the unselectable Ballance and the reserve keeper Buttler (who was dropped for not getting enough runs too)  that they didnt bring another proper top 4 batter after the bangladesh tour appeared a poor decision at the time and looks even worse now, that said not sure who they bring in either!

big argument that a couple of those batting down the order are going to have to step up and bat higher up 

could see a line up of Cook, Hameed, Root, Moeen, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler, Woakes, Rashid, Ansari/Finn, Andersen

whilst we are strong with all rounders, we definitely lack out and out batting options (not to mentions spinners!)
		
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What about pick Woakes. move Bearstow and Stokes up one and play Finn as well if they are going to rest Broad (injured perhaps)??

England at probably betting going with its strengths in Seam bowling. 

I remember South Africa won a series against India a few years ago with no spinners.


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## fundy (Nov 21, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			What about pick Woakes. move Bearstow and Stokes up one and play Finn as well if they are going to rest Broad (injured perhaps)??

England at probably betting going with its strengths in Seam bowling. 

I remember South Africa won a series against India a few years ago with no spinners.
		
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3 batters, 3 all rounders, 2 keepers and 3 bowlers. feels awfully light on batting (i thought my side did already!) Think I agree I rather have the extra seamer just happy to leave Ansari out on that basis


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2016)

fundy said:



			3 batters, 3 all rounders, 2 keepers and 3 bowlers. feels awfully light on batting (i thought my side did already!) Think I agree I rather have the extra seamer just happy to leave Ansari out on that basis
		
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I'm not sure I'd pick Joss, unless he was going to keep and Jonny looks to have improved his keeping.

Id go;
Cook 
Hameed
Root
Ali
Stokes
Bearstow
Woakes
Rasheed
Ansari or Ball
Finn
Anderson


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2016)

We proved in the second innings we can take wickets but it's the way the batsmen seem to collapse en masse once a wicket goes that's the bigger worry. Duckett a long way from a test player on this showing. Not sure what they do though to make changes other than Woakes for the injured Broad. If the next pitch is reliant on the toss of a coin lets hope Cook gets the call right


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## Piece (Nov 22, 2016)

Finn...just don't rate him. Was a 90mph bowler, but now it's more like 80mph. On these wickets and his potential to drop in a couple of pies per over, means they'll be queuing up to face him. Been wrong before though


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## Tongo (Nov 26, 2016)

Not quite sure what to make of today. Good stuff from Bairstow and Buttler but England may have missed a trick. 

Having said that there appears to be some turn and Umesh Yadav was getting some reverse swing so there may be some hope for England's bowlers.


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## fundy (Nov 26, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Not quite sure what to make of today. Good stuff from Bairstow and Buttler but England may have missed a trick. 

Having said that there appears to be some turn and Umesh Yadav was getting some reverse swing so there may be some hope for England's bowlers.
		
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yet again the batting hasnt given the bowlers enough runs to play with, too many gave it away (buttler, stokes for sure) really struggle to see how we are competitive only getting 300 batting first, fully expect we give up 100+ lead first inns again


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## Tongo (Nov 27, 2016)

Love the way this England team manage to confound the obvious! Shame Ashwin and Jadeja put on a bit of a stand. Quick wickets tomorrow would put England marginally ahead methinks.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 27, 2016)

We need early wickets to stop too much of a lead building up. If we can do that and bat well we'll set an interesting target. As the ball is only four overs old we've got the tools


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## Tongo (Nov 28, 2016)

Well as Craig Revel-Horwood would say: "Disorster!"

Well done Ben Stokes on a cheeky 5-fer.


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## vkurup (Nov 28, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We need early wickets to stop too much of a lead building up. If we can do that and bat well we'll set an interesting target. As the ball is only four overs old we've got the tools
		
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Well there goes the theory.. This series seems to be a battle of which team has the best tail enders.. Other than that the only diff is Kohli v/s rest of the English top order.   Unless the English tailenders and bowlers do some magic, Mohali is in India's bag.

BTW, which team loses wickets in the last over of the game!!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2016)

This will be swiftly concluded tomorrow. Very poor on both batting and bowling as we had our opportunities with the ball and yet again a number of batsmen have been found lacking in application and technique. I would put, as a degree of mitigation, that I consider India the hardest place for any test nation to visit and compete well in, certainly on the type of wickets and in the conditions we've seen to date


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## Piece (Nov 29, 2016)

Bah humbug. Chances of getting series draw...? 0.00001%.


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## pendodave (Nov 29, 2016)

Hope the young lad gets his hand sorted pronto. 

As if we weren't already second best, losing him is a real blow. 

Given that they obviously don't fancy any of the squad batsmen, I wonder if they'll fly someone in for the last two tests? I don't follow the county scene to have any useful opinion as to whether a suitable candidate exists.


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## Tongo (Nov 29, 2016)

pendodave said:



			Hope the young lad gets his hand sorted pronto. 

As if we weren't already second best, losing him is a real blow. 

Given that they obviously don't fancy any of the squad batsmen, I wonder if they'll fly someone in for the last two tests? *I don't follow the county scene to have any useful opinion as to whether a suitable candidate exists*.
		
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In short, no. Hence why the squad is rather light on out and out batsmen as opposed to all rounders. Hales is likely to be in the running. They could do a lot worse than Nick Compton.


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## fundy (Nov 29, 2016)

could be worse, couldve batted like Pakistan did after tea last night


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## Tongo (Nov 29, 2016)

fundy said:



			could be worse, couldve batted like Pakistan did after tea last night 

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Collapses are in fashion at the moment!


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## vkurup (Nov 29, 2016)

What is the likelihood of Hameed getting a call up for an IPL slot?  He looks very orthodox and very suited for Test, but I wonder if he has the attitude/showmanship for an IPL slot.  However, he can be a decent marketing material considering he will become the prodigal Indian (grand)son who could play for the state that his dad hails from..


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2016)

Would raid the Lions for a couple of players - Leach and Ball

Then bring back Bell


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## Junior (Nov 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would raid the Lions for a couple of players - Leach and Ball

Then bring back Bell
		
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I agree. I honestly don't get why Ball has not had a crack.  He'd do no worse than the third spinners we have picked who have hardly bowled.


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## Beezerk (Nov 29, 2016)

Who is that batty anyway? I watched some of the test over the weekend and he looks about as threatening to take wickets as Tiger is to win again.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2016)

Can't see too much new blood from the Lions being used. We can still draw the serious (in theory at least) and while Bell has experience, when was the last time he played on these kind of wickets. The frustrating thing is, that at times we've played as well or better than India, but we've not been able to do it with regularity especially with the bat. With the ball we've created pressure and got wickets and then let tail end stands build


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## Paperboy (Nov 29, 2016)

Should be getting Gubbins or Jennings from the lions to open. Duckett unfortunately is too susceptible to off spin.


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## Karl102 (Nov 29, 2016)

Controversial one..... Borthwick and play 2 leggies..... got to be better than Gareth Batty... He's a good batter as well.... We have an obsession with Left arm spinners.... When I was plyaing at a half decent standard all the counties wanted was young left arm around the wicket spinners, hence the fascination with Briggs (who got canned by the Aussies) and this tour Ansarie.  As a Lancashire fan, I cant believe they didn't give Keedy more of a run in his heyday.  I guess it was around the same time as Tuffnell and Monty P though.....


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## OnTour (Nov 30, 2016)

I agree with Leach over batty or Ansarie, Young Hameed has been brilliant insign by the selectors ! Borthwick mainly being a decent batter as well would fit.


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2016)

theyve called up Jennings and Dawson!

Jennings makes sense and I hope they play him ahead of Duckett, the Dawson selection is really odd for me, hes basically a defensive ODI bowler who can bat and field. Last year got just 20 championship wickets at over 40 a piece

The selection policy of naming the squad for India before the Bangladesh series been really badly exposed though (as many said at the time) and left England without the right composition or depth of squad from day 1


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## Paperboy (Nov 30, 2016)

fundy said:



			theyve called up Jennings and Dawson!

Jennings makes sense and I hope they play him ahead of Duckett, the Dawson selection is really odd for me, hes basically a defensive ODI bowler who can bat and field. Last year got just 20 championship wickets at over 40 a piece

The selection policy of naming the squad for India before the Bangladesh series been really badly exposed though (as many said at the time) and left England without the right composition or depth of squad from day 1
		
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Dawson had a poor year this season, but the season before weighed in with some very important wickets for Hampshire.

Would have gone for a full time spinner to be honest. Unless they want the left arm spin option.


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## vkurup (Nov 30, 2016)

fundy said:



			theyve called up *Jennings* and Dawson!

Jennings makes sense and I hope they play him ahead of Duckett, the Dawson selection is really odd for me, hes basically a defensive ODI bowler who can bat and field. Last year got just 20 championship wickets at over 40 a piece

The selection policy of naming the squad for India before the Bangladesh series been really badly exposed though (as many said at the time) and left England without the right composition or depth of squad from day 1
		
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Yet another left handed batsman? Not sure the lefties are very effective when the spinners pitch it into the bowlers scuff marks.  Just a case of lamb to slaughter. If he opens with Cook then bowling to two lefties makes it that much easy for Ashwin & co.  

English pace attack in Mumbai will be interesting esp if the sea breeze is blowing from the sides, but it has always been a turning pitch on 4th and 5th days.  Eng has won in Mumbai in the past, again toss will be important


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 30, 2016)

Atherton ,is calling for Sam Billings as he has history of Indian cricket and plays spin well . 
just like i said a couple of weeks ago .


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			Atherton ,is calling for Sam Billings as he has history of Indian cricket and plays spin well . 
just like i said a couple of weeks ago .
		
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a T20 hitter to open in a test match? havent we just been down that road?


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## Norrin Radd (Nov 30, 2016)

fundy said:



			a T20 hitter to open in a test match? havent we just been down that road?
		
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.
not with Athertons backing though:thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 30, 2016)

Having called these players up you have to play them. That'll make it an interesting looking side but not convinced whatever the make up it'll be enough. I think the batsmen have a lost look about them


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



*Having called these players up you have to play them*. That'll make it an interesting looking side but not convinced whatever the make up it'll be enough. I think the batsmen have a lost look about them
		
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on what basis? players get called up to squads/tours as cover all the time and dont play


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 30, 2016)

fundy said:



			on what basis? players get called up to squads/tours as cover all the time and dont play
		
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On the basis that clearly the management has decided a change is needed to freshen the batting/bowling. One thing being named in a touring squad and only playing the odd warm up game or not at all, but it seems strange, to me at least, to call players in with the chance to draw the series hanging thinly and then not bother to use them. Why not simply stick with what you've had so far?


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2016)

theyve both been called up as injury cover, i expect they will both play some part but to say they have to play just doesnt hold at all


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## Tongo (Dec 8, 2016)

Good start from England, Keaton Jennings playing well on debut. 

Disappointing neither Cook nor Root could capitalise on their starts though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2016)

Tongo - Do you feel a little bit dirty with England picking yet another S.African to play? It just doesn't sit right with me. This lad was still playing for S.Africa at U19 level.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 8, 2016)

Boycott is really doing my head in now.  He is full of compliments for Moeen Ali taking it to the Indian spinners by being aggressive and then when he gets caught doing it, he rants for half an hour about playing a stupid shot.   He is just the ultimate second-guesser and an absolute buffoon.


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## Paperboy (Dec 8, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tongo - Do you feel a little bit dirty with England picking yet another S.African to play? It just doesn't sit right with me. This lad was still playing for S.Africa at U19 level.
		
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His Mum is English, he's served his residence so no problems at all for me.


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## Tongo (Dec 8, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tongo - Do you feel a little bit dirty with England picking yet another S.African to play? It just doesn't sit right with me. This lad was still playing for S.Africa at U19 level.
		
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Not really. Jennings is another example of how teams these days are made up of transient players. Look at the German and Belgian squads from Euro 2016. The days of international teams being comprised solely of players born in that particular country are long gone. People moving about, both demographically and for sporting reasons, is the new norm.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2016)

I know he has served his residency and yes his mum is English but he grew up in S.Africa and spent most of his life there. The mouth opens and a S. African voice comes out. I felt the same about Pietersen, Caddick et al. I know the gates are open, it is too late etc. It just feels like a matter of convenience, a business decision, and playing for a country should never be that. I'll take my fogey views and sit down now.


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## Paperboy (Dec 8, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'll take my fogey views and sit down now.
		
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That's what should be good about a forum, a difference of view calmly discussed. Everyone should be able to say what they want.

What where your thoughts on Hick, Lamb and R.Smith?


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## Tongo (Dec 8, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know he has served his residency and yes his mum is English but he grew up in S.Africa and spent most of his life there. The mouth opens and a S. African voice comes out. I felt the same about Pietersen, Caddick et al. I know the gates are open, it is too late etc. It just feels like a matter of convenience, a business decision, and playing for a country should never be that. I'll take my fogey views and sit down now.
		
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I wouldnt say its a business decision but a career decision. There was obviously a reason why he decided to stop playing in SA domestic cricket in 2012 and joined Durham. He obviously made that decision because he believed it to be the best for his career. From what i understand SA cricket and who is selected still has some politics attached to it.


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## pendodave (Dec 8, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know he has served his residency and yes his mum is English but he grew up in S.Africa and spent most of his life there. The mouth opens and a S. African voice comes out. I felt the same about Pietersen, Caddick et al. I know the gates are open, it is too late etc. It just feels like a matter of convenience, a business decision, and playing for a country should never be that. I'll take my fogey views and sit down now.
		
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I'm with you LT. For me, it devalues 'international' sport. It's supposed to be between nations, not groups of individuals who have gamed lax residency rules to their own advantage. I think that cricket has tightened up a bit on residency, and that Jennings would no longer qualify on that basis. Not sure where his Mum would fit into the rules though...

Just because it's the new norm doesn't mean old gits need to like it.


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## Tongo (Dec 8, 2016)

pendodave said:



			I'm with you LT. For me, it devalues 'international' sport. It's supposed to be between nations, not groups of individuals who have gamed lax residency rules to their own advantage. I think that cricket has tightened up a bit on residency, and that Jennings would no longer qualify on that basis. Not sure where his Mum would fit into the rules though...

Just because it's the new norm doesn't mean old gits need to like it.
		
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The question then is where is the line drawn? 

For instance, where do you draw the line between Nasser Hussain (born in India but moved to England as young child) and Jennings? (Born in SA, moved to England as an adult)

Admittedly, the issue of representing one country at u19 level and then playing for another at test level clouds the issue but Ryan Giggs did the same thing in Football.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2016)

Paperboy said:



			What where your thoughts on Hick, Lamb and R.Smith?
		
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Different times, SA were excluded from world cricket, Zimbabwe were not on the international scene. However, I did still feel the same. I felt an understanding for why those guys moved to England as it was the only way for them to play international cricker whereas the current crop do it for other reasons. Fundamentally they were not English though so yes, I did not feel the same afinity for them as I did other players of that era.



pendodave said:



			Just because it's the new norm doesn't mean old gits need to like it.
		
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Sometimes you just need that little bit of reassurance 

Tongo, pick an age, any age. Perhaps 11? The point when you move to high school. It is an arbitrary figure and you can argue any way you like regarding that but as you get past 11 you start to be more grown up and be more aware of yourself and who you are. I think that is a fair age to pick. I certainly think once you have represented your country at any level that is game over.


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## Paperboy (Dec 8, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I certainly think once you have represented your country at any level that is game over.
		
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I'd hate to hear what you think about E.Joyce then had to re-qualify for Ireland


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2016)

Ha ha. Very nice bloke from the interviews I've seen. He chanced his arm to play for England, same as Eoin Morgan, as it gave him a chance to play international test cricket, something neither of them could do with Ireland. I understand that, it was a professional decision. It doesn't mean either of them should have been picked though and I respect Joyce wanting to go back to play for Ireland when it didn't work out. 

We can pick names going back a few years and the answer would be the same. I may have enjoyed watching non English people play for England, I enjoy the game so I appreciate any good player, but it doesn't mean that I thought they should be part of the team.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 8, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Admittedly, the issue of representing one country at u19 level and then playing for another at test level clouds the issue but Ryan Giggs did the same thing in Football.
		
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How many times is that myth to be repeated?

He played for England Schools because he was educated in England.

That team represents England Schools Football Association and any child attending a school in England is eligible, regardless of nationality.

Ryan Giggs has never played for a team representing the FA.

As for the cricketers, I am with LT in feeling uncomfortable about the likes of Trott, Pietersen and now Jennings playing for England. Age 11 might be a little arbitrary but could be a good place to start.


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## Tongo (Dec 8, 2016)

Well, whatever the semantics its hardly a new phenomenon, either in cricket or in sport. Alfredo di Stefano played international for 3 separate countries during his career. 

The case of Fawad Ahmed and Australia shows how imposing age limits can be a tricky business.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 8, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Well, whatever the semantics its hardly a new phenomenon, either in cricket or in sport. Alfredo di Stefano played international for 3 separate countries during his career. 

The case of Fawad Ahmed and Australia shows how imposing age limits can be a tricky business.
		
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I know it is nothing new but still doesn't mean I am comfortable with it and never have been. 

Slightly more acceptable in the cases of Smith & Lamb as international cricket would not have been an option for them had they remained South African.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2016)

A solid start undone by a few quick wickets. We certainly need a minimum of another 100 on the board tomorrow to give the bowlers a chance. I'd say it was honours even after day one


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## louise_a (Dec 8, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Well, whatever the semantics its hardly a new phenomenon, either in cricket or in sport. Alfredo di Stefano played international for 3 separate countries during his career. 

The case of Fawad Ahmed and Australia shows how imposing age limits can be a tricky business.
		
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In cricket Kepler Vessels springs to mind, played tests for Australia and then for South Africa


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## Tongo (Dec 9, 2016)

Great stuff from Buttler and Jake Ball this morning. Gives England's bowlers something to play with since the first innings of the first test.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Great stuff from Buttler and Jake Ball this morning. Gives England's bowlers something to play with since the first innings of the first test.
		
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great powers of concentration from James Anderson Batting too, 4 balls thats a long innings for him:rofl:


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## Tongo (Dec 9, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			great powers of concentration from James Anderson Batting too, 4 balls thats a long innings for him:rofl:
		
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It wasnt his fault Buttler threw his wicket away!


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## Tongo (Dec 10, 2016)

I find him a rather irksome character but Virat Kohli is a class act when batting. He and Ashwin are the 2 main differences in this series.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 10, 2016)

Going to be hard for England now. Likely to have close to a three figure deficit to overcome and then need to build a lead after that. At best I can see a draw, but not hopeful


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## Tongo (Dec 11, 2016)

Looking like this series is gonna end 4-0.


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## vkurup (Dec 11, 2016)

A bit of sour grapes from Jimmy.. if he had some world class skills like Akram, Waqar, Steyn etc, he could have taken the pitch out of the equation... Kohli was a class apart.  Equally cant take the morning away from Jayant Yadav (#7 scores a century and Jimmy still blames the pitch!!). Root & Bairstow showed it can be done.  

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...of-equation-Anderson/articleshow/55926069.cms 

BTW, some umpiring was shocking, glad DRS is in play here


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 11, 2016)

vkurup said:



			A bit of sour grapes from Jimmy.. if he had some world class skills like Akram, Waqar, Steyn etc, he could have taken the pitch out of the equation... Kohli was a class apart.  Equally cant take the morning away from Jayant Yadav (#7 scores a century and Jimmy still blames the pitch!!). Root & Bairstow showed it can be done.  

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...of-equation-Anderson/articleshow/55926069.cms 

BTW, some umpiring was shocking, glad DRS is in play here
		
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So Anderson's record of 467 Test wickets doesn't measure up Really?

As for his comments about Kohli, the fact is that for years now India, both as a team and as individuals, have shown a marked difference in their performances on the sub-continent compared with elsewhere. e.g. Kohli in England 2014.

This, of course, is not unusual in Test cricket where the truly great players perform in alien as well as home conditions whilst lesser players find it difficult to maintain the same standards.

Kohli has been totally awesome in this, a home, if he is to become a "great" then his performances in away series will have to improve and I am sure they may well do so but until then he remains a very good but not great player.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 11, 2016)

Poor comments from Anderson who has struggled for the series and clearly frustrated. The pitches in India have been known about and how they will perform for years and so it can't have come as any great surprise that pace isn't such a potent weapon. As for the performance today, Root apart, the batting flaws are still glaringly obvious and 4-0 looks a certainty now


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## vkurup (Dec 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			So Anderson's record of 467 Test wickets doesn't measure up Really?

As for his comments about Kohli, the fact is that for years now India, both as a team and as individuals, have shown a marked difference in their performances on the sub-continent compared with elsewhere. e.g. Kohli in England 2014.

This, of course, is not unusual in Test cricket where the truly great players perform in alien as well as home conditions whilst lesser players find it difficult to maintain the same standards.

Kohli has been totally awesome in this, a home, if he is to become a "great" then his performances in away series will have to improve and I am sure they may well do so but until then he remains a very good but not great player.
		
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No.. i dont take anything away from Jimmy.. I like Jimmy.  Also his record overseas is pretty good. However it is a bit disingenuous to take anything away from someone who just played his career best game while the remaining 20 folks were looking fairly ordinary. 

Kohli always had a reputation as a ODI specialist and the 2014 tour was probably saw his lowest point.   Since then he has been steadily building his reputation and test game.   He was always seen as someone with a short fuse and having a lot of aggro.  Under Dhoni he thrived and it is remarkable on how he has been handling the test captaincy. We of course need to see how he performs in the tests overseas  I agree that the pitch may not do much swinging but if you pitch it well and in the corridor of uncertainty, things happen.  The Indian seamers have done well with the new ball, so its not an impossible task esp for Jimmy.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 11, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The Indian seamers have done well with the new ball
		
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Fewer than a quarter of England's wickets have fallen to the quicks. The pitches have been prepared for spin in the same way that we prepare seamer-friendly tracks over here.

Understandable as India have, in Ashwin and Jadeja, two of the very best spinners currently playing. As a retired County seamer said to me the other day "Bowling on those tracks could make you want to give up!"

What is undeniable is that the players England picked are not capable of taking advantage of the Indian conditions.


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## Tongo (Dec 11, 2016)

Is it any surprise England have struggled in spin friendly conditions when spin bowling is so marginalised in the county championship?

Plus the selectors chose to ignore Jack Leach despite him taking 68 wickets last summer.


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## vkurup (Dec 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Fewer than a quarter of England's wickets have fallen to the quicks. The pitches have been prepared for spin in the same way that we prepare seamer-friendly tracks over here.

Understandable as India have, in Ashwin and Jadeja, two of the very best spinners currently playing. As a retired County seamer said to me the other day "Bowling on those tracks could make you want to give up!"

What is undeniable is that the players England picked are not capable of taking advantage of the Indian conditions.
		
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I agree, the subcontinent pitches have always had more bite for the spinners and is heart wrenching for the seamers.  But over the past couple of years, India has started developing some good seamers - Shami and Bhuveneshwar Kumar have done alright.  Watching Shami break Cooks offstump off an absolute with an absolute beauty

Listening to TMS this morning, 'there is something reassuring to wake up on a winter morning and hear about a English collapse..'


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 11, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Is it any surprise England have struggled in spin friendly conditions when spin bowling is so marginalised in the county championship?

Plus the selectors chose to ignore Jack Leach despite him taking 68 wickets last summer.
		
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Can't argue with this. Good points well made


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 11, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Is it any surprise England have struggled in spin friendly conditions when spin bowling is so marginalised in the county championship?

Plus the selectors chose to ignore Jack Leach despite him taking 68 wickets last summer.
		
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Said when the squad was announced that the spinners were the poor choices and we should have taken Leach and Rayner 

Ansari always injured and guess what he is again 

Batty just not threatening enough and a dead duck on tour 

And whilst the batsmen have struggled the bowlers haven't taken the chances as well. Leach is doing well on the Lions tour so hopefully should see him involved during the summer 

India is always a tough place to tour and it's no shame to lose but would like to see a bit of fight.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 11, 2016)

vkurup said:



			I agree, the subcontinent pitches have always had more bite for the spinners and is heart wrenching for the seamers.  But over the past couple of years, India has started developing some good seamers - Shami and Bhuveneshwar Kumar have done alright.  Watching Shami break Cooks offstump off an absolute with an absolute beauty

Listening to TMS this morning, 'there is something reassuring to wake up on a winter morning and hear about a English collapse..'
		
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And yet in England in 2014 Shami took 5 for 350+ in three Tests. In those same three matches Anderson took 16 wickets for pretty much the same.

As I say it is only exceptional sides that do not rely upon favourable home conditions.


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## Tongo (Dec 11, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Can't argue with this. Good points well made
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Said when the squad was announced that the spinners were the poor choices and we should have taken Leach and Rayner 

Ansari always injured and guess what he is again 

Batty just not threatening enough and a dead duck on tour 

And whilst the batsmen have struggled the bowlers haven't taken the chances as well. Leach is doing well on the Lions tour so hopefully should see him involved during the summer 

India is always a tough place to tour and it's no shame to lose but would like to see a bit of fight.
		
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Even with Leach England would still have lost comfortably. They simply do not have the resources to match India. It isnt about fight, its about just not being good enough. A bit like when playing the Aussies in their pomp. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up and admit you arent good enough. 

Not that the media will take any of that into account. They'll just be baying for blood.


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## Tongo (Dec 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And yet in England in 2014 Shami took 5 for 350+ in three Tests. In those same three matches Anderson took 16 wickets for pretty much the same.

As I say it is only exceptional sides that do not rely upon favourable home conditions.
		
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Or maybe Shami's a better bowler than he was 2 years ago.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 11, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Is it any surprise England have struggled in spin friendly conditions when spin bowling is so marginalised in the county championship?

Plus the selectors chose to ignore Jack Leach despite him taking 68 wickets last summer.
		
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Certainly the selection of Batty and Ansari was strange but in fairness what are the options?

Leach may have been a possible but that would also have been a gamble as, so far, he has had only one good season. Personally I would have given him a chance but in view of his limited past record we would all have been hoping that he was more Hameed than Duckett.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 11, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Or maybe Shami's a better bowler than he was 2 years ago.
		
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We will never know. Obviously it would be strange if, at this stage of his career, he hadn't improved but the only way of comparing will be if he again tours England.


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## Tongo (Dec 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			We will never know. Obviously it would be strange if, at this stage of his career, he hadn't improved but the only way of comparing will be if he again tours England.
		
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He's only played 22 tests though and had only made his debut the November before that England series you referred to. 

I listened to a lot of TMS on the test at Mohali and he consistently troubled the England batsmen in a way that the England bowlers didnt.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 11, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Even with Leach England would still have lost comfortably. They simply do not have the resources to match India. It isnt about fight, its about just not being good enough. A bit like when playing the Aussies in their pomp. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up and admit you arent good enough. 

Not that the media will take any of that into account. They'll just be baying for blood.
		
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You could swap the Aussies for that legendary West Indian side of the 70's and early 80's who played home and away and were largely unstoppable on any wicket. I take your point about Australia but if you look at their record in India it's not that good and 2004-5 was their last win there


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 11, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Even with Leach England would still have lost comfortably. They simply do not have the resources to match India. It isnt about fight, its about just not being good enough. A bit like when playing the Aussies in their pomp. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up and admit you arent good enough. 

Not that the media will take any of that into account. They'll just be baying for blood.
		
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Nothing like playing the Aussies in their pomp.

I would back us against India at home but I would never have said that about Australia in the days of Warne, McGrath, Ponting etc;


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Nothing like playing the Aussies in their pomp.

I would back us against India at home but I would never have said that about Australia in the days of Warne, McGrath, Ponting etc;
		
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Agreed. If India came to England next summer we would have them on toast with seamer friendly pitches. As it is we are in India on spin friendly pitches and we are being stuffed. Both teams are set up for their home pitches and are vulnerable on wickets that offer the opposite of what the players thrive on. It shows how good Root in particular is as he scores wherever. It's a pleasure to watch him.

I do think we are stuck with an obsession of playing seamers no matter the wicket but maybe the quality of spinners is just not there at the moment. Until we bring some through we will continue to struggle in the sub continent.

Anderson complaining about the wicket is an embarrassment considering the ones that have been set up for him over the years. That is how test cricket has always been.


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## Tongo (Dec 12, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You could swap the Aussies for that legendary West Indian side of the 70's and early 80's who played home and away and were largely unstoppable on any wicket. I take your point about Australia but if you look at their record in India it's not that good and 2004-5 was their last win there
		
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MetalMickie said:



			Nothing like playing the Aussies in their pomp.

I would back us against India at home but I would never have said that about Australia in the days of Warne, McGrath, Ponting etc;
		
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Lord Tyrion said:



			Agreed. If India came to England next summer we would have them on toast with seamer friendly pitches. As it is we are in India on spin friendly pitches and we are being stuffed. Both teams are set up for their home pitches and are vulnerable on wickets that offer the opposite of what the players thrive on. It shows how good Root in particular is as he scores wherever. It's a pleasure to watch him.

I do think we are stuck with an obsession of playing seamers no matter the wicket but maybe the quality of spinners is just not there at the moment. Until we bring some through we will continue to struggle in the sub continent.

Anderson complaining about the wicket is an embarrassment considering the ones that have been set up for him over the years. That is how test cricket has always been.
		
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I wasnt saying India are as good as Australia in their pomp. Just saying that sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and admit the opposition are too good. Which was the case when the Aussies were top dog. 

This particular series has parallels with the 1993 series in India when England similarly looked way out of their depth.


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## vkurup (Dec 12, 2016)

That was quick this morning.. From Twitter sums up the tail... Eng lost their last 5 wkts in.. 70 balls at Dhaka in October 71 balls at Vizag in November 72 balls at Wankhede in December #IndvsEng


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 12, 2016)

Tongo said:



			I wasnt saying India are as good as Australia in their pomp. Just saying that sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and admit the opposition are too good. Which was the case when the Aussies were top dog. 

This particular series has parallels with the 1993 series in India when England similarly looked way out of their depth.
		
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No one could ever suggest that we have been anywhere near good enough in either Bangladesh or India.

The absence of spin from the domestic game not only means we have not got the bowling to compete on those pitches but also our batsmen are generally inadequate when faced with top quality spin.

I have no hesitation in praising India's performance but remain certain that it would be a completely different scenario if playing in England.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2016)

Tongo, I didn't mean it to come across that way. I was having a partial rant as I was annoyed with England, not you. The series swings massively depending on who is home and who is away. I want to see who is the best team but the dice is so loaded for the home team in both cases that you don't really know. Kohli goes from being an absolute rabbit that the England bowlers are fighting to get at to being the best in the world and no one wants the ball. 

In the case of West Indies and Australia at their peaks there was never any doubt.


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## vkurup (Dec 12, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tongo, I didn't mean it to come across that way. I was having a partial rant as I was annoyed with England, not you. The series swings massively depending on who is home and who is away. I want to see who is the best team but the dice is so loaded for the home team in both cases that you don't really know. *Kohli goes from being an absolute rabbit that the England bowlers are fighting to get at to being the best in the world and no one wants the ball*. 

In the case of West Indies and Australia at their peaks there was never any doubt.
		
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That is a difference that 2 years in International cricket makes.  2014 was his lowest point as he admits it. He has turned a corner from there and gone from strength to strength after that.   We had Swann who could spin, but he gave up/retired too early, which is sad for a sportsman.   

Well we wont see the Cricket team bothering the SPOTY judges in a hurry.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2016)

Your last sentence is spot on. 

I agree Kohli has moved on and is a joy to watch. I bet Anderson and Broad still fancy him back on English wickets though. If he does it on green tops then his game has moved on to another elite level.

 Swann has been an enormous loss to England. He spun the ball, took wickets, but most of all he gave the captain control. He could close up an end and apply pressure if required. He was huge for England. He packed in because his elbow, I think it was his elbow, was shot and he could no longer but enough spin on the ball. The Aussies realised that and without the threat of spinning the ball they just took him to pieces. If a spinner is not spinning the ball then they are just bowling slow, straight deliveries. At pro level that is just fodder.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 12, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Your last sentence is spot on. 

I agree Kohli has moved on and is a joy to watch. I bet Anderson and Broad still fancy him back on English wickets though. If he does it on green tops then his game has moved on to another elite level.

 Swann has been an enormous loss to England. He spun the ball, took wickets, but most of all he gave the captain control. He could close up an end and apply pressure if required. He was huge for England. He packed in because his elbow, I think it was his elbow, was shot and he could no longer but enough spin on the ball. The Aussies realised that and without the threat of spinning the ball they just took him to pieces. If a spinner is not spinning the ball then they are just bowling slow, straight deliveries. At pro level that is just fodder.
		
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Back in 2005 Ashley Giles did a great job for England without ever greatly turning it.

He maintained control and, thus, the seamers could keep pressing. Unfortunately none of the present generation of spinners look capable of bowling with such control.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2016)

That is a great point about Giles. Maybe he just got a little more bounce or zip in his deliveries than Swann which meant he could do such a great job and not be exposed. I'm guessing there. I do know the Aussies cottoned on to Swann during his last series and had a field day with him. Perhaps he didn't fancy dropping into a different role that was so different to his main career when he had been at a better level previously. In Giles's case he had always bowled that way.

What we can say is that both of those offered their captain's control and none of the current crop can do that. Agreed.


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## Tongo (Dec 12, 2016)

vkurup said:



*That is a difference that 2 years in International cricket makes.  2014 was his lowest point as he admits it. He has turned a corner from there and gone from strength to strength after that*.   We had Swann who could spin, but he gave up/retired too early, which is sad for a sportsman.   

Well we wont see the Cricket team bothering the SPOTY judges in a hurry.
		
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The concept of players improving seems lost on some. The earlier chat about Shami kind of highlighted that.


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## Tongo (Dec 12, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Your last sentence is spot on. 

I agree Kohli has moved on and is a joy to watch. I bet Anderson and Broad still fancy him back on English wickets though. *If he does it on green tops then his game has moved on to another elite level.
*
 Swann has been an enormous loss to England. He spun the ball, took wickets, but most of all he gave the captain control. He could close up an end and apply pressure if required. He was huge for England. He packed in because his elbow, I think it was his elbow, was shot and he could no longer but enough spin on the ball. The Aussies realised that and without the threat of spinning the ball they just took him to pieces. If a spinner is not spinning the ball then they are just bowling slow, straight deliveries. At pro level that is just fodder.
		
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As was highlighted on TMS though, how many Englis test pitches are genuine green tops and how many are just chief executive pitches designed to last 5 days to maximise revenue?


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## Tongo (Dec 12, 2016)

Hussain's point about the selectors is spot on for me:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cr...ion-biggest-factor-blame-India-struggles.html


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2016)

Tongo said:



			As was highlighted on TMS though, how many Englis test pitches are genuine green tops and how many are just chief executive pitches designed to last 5 days to maximise revenue?
		
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You are quite right. The days of Headingley or Trent Bridge being green are long gone due to the point you make. It was just easier to use the phrase than expand about nipping pitches or environments where the ball swings around. To get Kohli out in England last time you only had to bowl full and off stump. Slight movement and he was back in the hutch in no time. It was like shelling peas. You don't get green tops any more. Perhaps I should have said English conditions. 

I do accept players improve, blimey look at Woakes, but when you are talking the elite, and Kohli is there, you want to be certain and them not be flat track merchants.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 12, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Hussain's point about the selectors is spot on for me:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cr...ion-biggest-factor-blame-India-struggles.html

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Agreed. When the vice-captain and "senior pro" (Root & Anderson) come out and say we picked the wrong line up for Mombai you wonder what the selection process is for each match.

Also agree with his comments on the squad. Ballance and Finn have never convinced and Ansari's selection never made sense. Tours these days should not require more than 14 players. Replacements can soon be flown in to cover injuries and complete form loss.


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## Piece (Dec 12, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Agreed. When the vice-captain and "senior pro" (Root & Anderson) come out and say we picked the wrong line up for Mombai you wonder what the selection process is for each match.

Also agree with his comments on the squad. Ballance and Finn have never convinced and *Ansari's selection never made sense*. Tours these days should not require more than 14 players. Replacements can soon be flown in to cover injuries and complete form loss.
		
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Yes, Ansari's selection was questionable, but not as much as Batty's. Waste of a spot.


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## vkurup (Dec 12, 2016)

My Jr has started to show some interest in cricket.. currently has never been on training, but we try and play inside the house.  My whole idea is to give him better hand eye coordinate rather than become the next cricket hero.  Next year will try and get him into some form of formal training if the interest continues.

I was giving him some practice of offspin and we had fun.  BTW, he is a natural right handed, but switched to batting left handed as Cooky plays left handed and because i told him that he might be better left handed than how he is right handed..  So he has been batting left handed for the past 2-3 weeks.   

Like a good english batsman, clueless against spin - even though it is on wooden floors. https://youtu.be/6_iszLGh5BQ


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 12, 2016)

Piece said:



			Yes, Ansari's selection was questionable, but not as much as Batty's. Waste of a spot.
		
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I had tried to forget that one!


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## Kellfire (Dec 12, 2016)

vkurup said:



			My Jr has started to show some interest in cricket.. currently has never been on training, but we try and play inside the house.  My whole idea is to give him better hand eye coordinate rather than become the next cricket hero.  Next year will try and get him into some form of formal training if the interest continues.

I was giving him some practice of offspin and we had fun.  BTW, he is a natural right handed, but switched to batting left handed as Cooky plays left handed and because i told him that he might be better left handed than how he is right handed..  So he has been batting left handed for the past 2-3 weeks.   

Like a good english batsman, clueless against spin - even though it is on wooden floors. https://youtu.be/6_iszLGh5BQ

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Needs to get his front foot moving to the pitch, he's way too bottom handed.


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## vkurup (Dec 12, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			Needs to get his front foot moving to the pitch, he's way too bottom handed. 

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Agree.. he is bringing his golf swing to cricket and so is rooted to the spot.  The bottom hand is from him being a right handed.. i think he will switch back to right hand as Kohli as replaced Cooky as his fav


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 13, 2016)

Bayliss not happy about the debate over Cook's future http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/38301168 but Cook has brought it on with his comments about Root being ready to take over. I hope Cook remains in the side and without the pressure of captaincy he'll flourish as an opener and that the pressure doesn't affect Root's performance


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2016)

vkurup said:



			My Jr has started to show some interest in cricket.. currently has never been on training, but we try and play inside the house.  My whole idea is to give him better hand eye coordinate rather than become the next cricket hero.  Next year will try and get him into some form of formal training if the interest continues.

I was giving him some practice of offspin and we had fun.  BTW, he is a natural right handed, but switched to batting left handed as Cooky plays left handed and because i told him that he might be better left handed than how he is right handed..  So he has been batting left handed for the past 2-3 weeks.   

Like a good english batsman, clueless against spin - even though it is on wooden floors. https://youtu.be/6_iszLGh5BQ

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looks a typical Indian batsman... no foot movement and a flat track bully:rofl:


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## vkurup (Dec 13, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			looks a typical Indian batsman... no foot movement and a flat track bully:rofl:
		
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:rofl:


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## Tongo (Dec 15, 2016)

An interesting development, particularly in light of Jimmy's sour grapes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/...g-play-county-cricket-england-prepare-indias/


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2016)

The ECB should butt in and stop the counties from taking him on. I know that wont happen but we want Kohli the rabbit, not Kohli the world class batsman.


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## fundy (Dec 15, 2016)

i see having shot his mouth off that Andersen is leaving the other bowlers to deal with it as hes a bit sore

as for Kohli they'll be absolutely queueing up, even if only for a few weeks (hoping that he may return for a longer stint down the line too)


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## fundy (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The ECB should butt in and stop the counties from taking him on. I know that wont happen but we want Kohli the rabbit, not Kohli the world class batsman.
		
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why? theyve never done it before now to my knowledge and we let every other countries players acclimatise as and when they want, why single Kohli out? be great for county cricket if he were to play a few games


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2016)

We allowed it throughout the 80's and 90's and overseas players became far better for it. They learnt how to master English conditions. Now international players are playing international cricket for most of the year and only have time off for a lucrative month or so of 20-20. This is partly why overseas players struggle so much in England now, they have not spent 3 yrs in county cricket playing the 4 day game. You wont learn about England from 20-20, it is a lottery.

My post was tongue in cheek but when you look at it from an England perspective it is madness to let Kohli get used to English pitches and bowling.


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## fundy (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We allowed it throughout the 80's and 90's and overseas players became far better for it. They learnt how to master English conditions. Now international players are playing international cricket for most of the year and only have time off for a lucrative month or so of 20-20. This is partly why overseas players struggle so much in England now, they have not spent 3 yrs in county cricket playing the 4 day game. You wont learn about England from 20-20, it is a lottery.

*My post was tongue in cheek but when you look at it from an England perspective it is madness to let Kohli get used to English pitches and bowling*.
		
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do you then stop all overseas players or just superstars or just those that have struggled over here on a previous tour though, as you say never gonna happen


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## Tongo (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The ECB should butt in and stop the counties from taking him on. I know that wont happen but we want Kohli the rabbit, not Kohli the world class batsman.
		
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In contrast there might be people interested in seeing Kohli bat. It might attract a few to matches that wouldnt necessarily attend.


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## Tongo (Dec 15, 2016)

fundy said:



			i see having shot his mouth off that Andersen is leaving the other bowlers to deal with it as hes a bit sore

*as for Kohli they'll be absolutely queueing up*, even if only for a few weeks (hoping that he may return for a longer stint down the line too)
		
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Can you honestly see him signing for anyone other than Middlesex or Surrey? Surely those in charge wont want him to have to base himself anywhere other than London.


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## Tongo (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The ECB should butt in and stop the counties from taking him on. I know that wont happen but we want Kohli the rabbit, not Kohli the world class batsman.
		
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The ECB will probably see this an opportunity to make money.


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## Tongo (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We allowed it throughout the 80's and 90's and overseas players became far better for it. They learnt how to master English conditions. Now international players are playing international cricket for most of the year and only have time off for a lucrative month or so of 20-20. *This is partly why overseas players struggle so much in England now*, they have not spent 3 yrs in county cricket playing the 4 day game. You wont learn about England from 20-20, it is a lottery.

My post was tongue in cheek but when you look at it from an England perspective it is madness to let Kohli get used to English pitches and bowling.
		
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One of my blog articles kind of touched on this:

https://yahooovercowcorner.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/help-from-an-old-friend/


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2016)

Tongo said:



			One of my blog articles kind of touched on this:

https://yahooovercowcorner.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/help-from-an-old-friend/

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Good blog :thup:


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## fundy (Dec 15, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Can you honestly see him signing for anyone other than Middlesex or Surrey? Surely those in charge wont want him to have to base himself anywhere other than London.
		
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id have thought there is every chance he signs for Yorkshire


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2016)

Yorkshire signed Tendulkar back in the day expecting a surge in spectators. Unfortunately they did not realise that most of the cricketing spectators near to Headingley were of Pakistani origin and so they did not get the upsurge they hope for. Unless demographics have changed Kohli falls into the same bracket.

Yorkshire certainly have the money, as do Lancashire and Surrey, but they have such a settled and succesful side that I would not see them being overly tempted. Parachuting someone in for 1 month of 4 day cricket is a very Surrey thing to do. Surrey must be favourites purely due to finances but I would be surprised if he goes anywhere but one of those three.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yorkshire signed Tendulkar back in the day expecting a surge in spectators. Unfortunately they did not realise that most of the cricketing spectators near to Headingley were of Pakistani origin and so they did not get the upsurge they hope for. Unless demographics have changed Kohli falls into the same bracket.

Yorkshire certainly have the money, as do Lancashire and Surrey, but they have such a settled and succesful side that I would not see them being overly tempted. Parachuting someone in for 1 month of 4 day cricket is a very Surrey thing to do. Surrey must be favourites purely due to finances but I would be surprised if he goes anywhere but one of those three.
		
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Of the three counties you mentioned I think you will find only Surrey are in a financially strong position. The other two have only recently returned to profitability but their positions remain fragile.


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## Tongo (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yorkshire signed Tendulkar back in the day expecting a surge in spectators. Unfortunately they did not realise that most of the cricketing spectators near to Headingley were of Pakistani origin and so they did not get the upsurge they hope for. Unless demographics have changed Kohli falls into the same bracket.

Yorkshire certainly have the money, as do Lancashire and Surrey, but they have such a settled and succesful side that I would not see them being overly tempted. Parachuting someone in for 1 month of 4 day cricket is a very Surrey thing to do. Surrey must be favourites purely due to finances but I would be surprised if he goes anywhere but one of those three.
		
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MetalMickie said:



			Of the three counties you mentioned I think you will find only Surrey are in a financially strong position. The other two have only recently returned to profitability but their positions remain fragile.
		
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I was under the impression that Yorkshire were in dire straits financially. 

Surrey would certainly seem the obvious choice.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2016)

Sorry you are right about Yorkshire. Big problems with Headingley as well I believe. I thought Lancashire were okay but that was not based on any facts. One thing I can say for certain is that he won't be going to Durham!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sorry you are right about Yorkshire. Big problems with Headingley as well I believe. I thought Lancashire were okay but that was not based on any facts. One thing I can say for certain is that he won't be going to Durham!
		
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All the provincial Test ground counties have, in recent years, faced massive expenditure for ground improvements. Although in the cases of Old Trafford & Headingley it is hard to see how beneficial those have been. 

As a result don't expect them to be big spenders.


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## Tongo (Dec 16, 2016)

Dear Joe and Mo, 

Great start! Please dont throw it away.


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## vkurup (Dec 16, 2016)

India was not upto the mark.. cant see why they changed the bowlers..  Ishant and Mishra not upto the mark and probably only there to rest the other bowlers as the series is in the bag...    The Root dismissal was very interesting.  without snicko, there is no way that would have been given.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2016)

i watched i bit live this morning and saw a fair few no balls none of which were called..

only time you ever see a no ball now is if they review the dec and it gets spotted there, so the batting side is always losing a few runs because these are not picked up


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## drewster (Dec 16, 2016)

In other news ,can someone tell me what Liam Dawson has done to get a test cap ? Seems they're giving them away like candy like their football counterparts !!!  It wasn't so long ago that he couldn't even get in Hampshire's team and took a stint on loan at Essex .


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## Paperboy (Dec 16, 2016)

drewster said:



			In other news ,can someone tell me what Liam Dawson has done to get a test cap ? Seems they're giving them away like candy like their football counterparts !!!  It wasn't so long ago that he couldn't even get in Hampshire's team and took a stint on loan at Essex .
		
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Scored a lot of runs two seasons ago and can turn his arm over a bit.
Last season was poor in the longer form of the game but played well in the shorter formats.


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## Tongo (Dec 16, 2016)

drewster said:



			In other news ,can someone tell me what Liam Dawson has done to get a test cap ? Seems they're giving them away like candy like their football counterparts !!!  It wasn't so long ago that he couldn't even get in Hampshire's team and took a stint on loan at Essex .
		
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Paperboy said:



			Scored a lot of runs two seasons ago and can turn his arm over a bit.
Last season was poor in the longer form of the game but played well in the shorter formats.
		
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Played okay in limited overs cricket, got picked for the test team. Isnt that the England way?!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 16, 2016)

A good first day, but England have had good days before this series. It would be good to go out with a resounding win so lets hope for a big batting day tomorrow and the bowlers find a way to take 20 wickets


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## drewster (Dec 19, 2016)

Tongo said:



			Played okay in limited overs cricket, got picked for the test team. Isnt that the England way?!
		
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Indeed it is and it's rubbish.  We have a 6 foot plus off spinner who could do a much better job. Ollie Rayner is no Ashwin but he's much better than Batty and Dawson FFS. We were never going to win in India but the slow bowling selection was awful bar Rashid of course.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 19, 2016)

If we all look the other way we can pretend this series never happened. Turn now.......


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2016)

OUCH!  

Good illustration of the old saying that you never really know what's a decent scorer till the other team bats!!

....our spinners not as good as theirs!


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## Dan2501 (Dec 19, 2016)

IanM said:



			....our team not as good as theirs!
		
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Fixed. Been thoroughly outclassed all series.


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## vkurup (Dec 19, 2016)

One guy gets 300, another nearly gets 200 (thats more than the total Eng score). Bunch of other guys incl spinners get 50s... 
... still we talk about flat wickets.. 

.. Eng need to get their socks up and agree that it got outclassed in every department.  

Day 5 morning will be interesting.  Moen was starting to see turn and so if it kicks and rips and Eng lose about 3 wickets before lunch then it spells trouble.  They just need to battle for hard fought drawn.


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## Tongo (Dec 19, 2016)

I cant believe that with 650 on the board Cook continued to flog his poor, knackered frontline bowlers! Ridiculous captaincy. 

Put on some part time filth and give em a rest! (I was hoping Bairstow might be called on to remove his pads and turn his arm over)


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2016)

Tongo said:



			I cant believe that with 650 on the board Cook continued to flog his poor, knackered frontline bowlers! Ridiculous captaincy. 

Put on some part time filth and give em a rest! (I was hoping Bairstow might be called on to remove his pads and turn his arm over)
		
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It's the last test of the series and the last time they will bowl. If Cook had got some others to bowl I can just imagine the complaints from people saying he is making a mockery of it. Certainly not ridiculous captaincy


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## Tongo (Dec 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's the last test of the series and the last time they will bowl. If Cook had got some others to bowl I can just imagine the complaints from people saying he is making a mockery of it. Certainly not ridiculous captaincy
		
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As opposed to the criticism being received for conceding 750. No hint of farce there at all.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 19, 2016)

England bowlers simply not enough to get 20 wickets in a game. As simple as that and India have been way ahead in terms of their batting and bowling. I hope we can bat for a draw and a modicum of respectability but a couple of quick wickets and it'll be another back to the wall day trying to survive


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2016)

Just made a big mistake and checked the cricket score. Arrgghhhhhhhhhh. Cruising at tea, collapsed now. Alistair, leave your captain's hat behind when you leave for the airport.


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## vkurup (Dec 20, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just made a big mistake and checked the cricket score. Arrgghhhhhhhhhh. Cruising at tea, collapsed now. Alistair, leave your captain's hat behind when you leave for the airport.
		
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Watched in the morning..  it was going all right with Moen holding fort going into tea.   Drove to work, logged in to see if there was a drawn.. Computer said no.. and it was prize giving!!.  Very reassuring and consistent performance..


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## Tongo (Dec 20, 2016)

Galling. Nothing else to say. Especially as Ashwin didnt take a wicket.


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## Piece (Dec 20, 2016)

Score 477 first inning and then lose by an innings....:mmm:


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2016)

Piece said:



			Score 477 first inning and then lose by an innings....:mmm:
		
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Indeed. However as I've said, I think India is the hardest place to play with their way their wickets turn. Some of the batsmen did well and scored runs and others got their technique found out. Our quicks couldn't get early wickets and the spinners weren't good enough. I hope the selectors take their time to review the performances and don't make quick knee jerk changes


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## Tongo (Dec 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Indeed. However as I've said, I think India is the hardest place to play with their way their wickets turn. Some of the batsmen did well and scored runs and others got their technique found out. Our quicks couldn't get early wickets and the spinners weren't good enough. I hope the selectors take their time to review the performances and don't make quick knee jerk changes
		
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India's home record since the start of 2013: played 18, won 16, drawn 2. 

One of those draws was a rain effected match in which they were in charge. 

Food for thought.


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## vkurup (Jan 15, 2017)

Eng did well ... nothing too spectacular but got 350 on the board.  Was watching and saw till India were about 50/4.  Switched it off as this was going to be a cakewalk for Eng.  Came back after a nap and India still in the game at 300/6!!  What happened, already 600+ runs scored. now put the kettle on and watching..


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## Tongo (Jan 15, 2017)

vkurup said:



			Eng did well ... nothing too spectacular but got 350 on the board.  Was watching and saw till India were about 50/4.  Switched it off as this was going to be a cakewalk for Eng.  Came back after a nap and India still in the game at 300/6!!  *What happened*, already 600+ runs scored. now put the kettle on and watching..
		
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Virat Kohli and Yadav. Fair play to them, they were class.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 15, 2017)

Tongo said:



			Virat Kohli and Yadav. Fair play to them, they were class.
		
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Same story as the tests for me. The batsmen were good but the bowlers were poor. Having taken four early wickets they needed to keep it tight and create pressure. That said both centurions were excellent


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## vkurup (Jan 15, 2017)

350 not enough!!!... Morgan and team mgmt must be wondering what they would need to win in India.  Kohli is indeed king of chase but credit to Kedar Jadhav as well as Pandya at the death to keep it going..


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 19, 2017)

Another tremendous effort by England. They may well lose the series but to push India so well in their own conditions in their strongest format deserves respect. 2 overs to go, go on Eoin.


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 19, 2017)

a valiant attempt but just coming up short .good game to watch though 22 needed off the last over.
too many


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 19, 2017)

Looking at the comments the criticism is around our death bowling. We gave them too many. Valiant chase though and so much better than one day England of old.


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## fundy (Jan 19, 2017)

So dull to watch these games, complete imbalance between bat and ball. If you insist on roads on small grounds where miss hits go for 6, just do away with bowlers and stick a bowling machine out there


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 19, 2017)

fundy said:



			So dull to watch these games, complete imbalance between bat and ball. If you insist on roads on small grounds where miss hits go for 6, just do away with bowlers and stick a bowling machine out there
		
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Getting to much like baseball with bowlers forced to bowl into batsmans 'hitting arc'.

Shorter the format the duller it is to watch.

Not a bit of wonder the standard of pace bowling these days is so poor with the odd exception. Does batsman no favours either as nobody seems capable of playing a well directed short ball peoperly.

Also interesting that these pitches are very different to those the tests were played on....


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## Tongo (Jan 19, 2017)

fundy said:



			So dull to watch these games, complete imbalance between bat and ball. If you insist on roads on small grounds where miss hits go for 6, just do away with bowlers and stick a bowling machine out there
		
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saving_par said:



			Getting to much like baseball with bowlers forced to bowl into batsmans 'hitting arc'.

Shorter the format the duller it is to watch.

Not a bit of wonder the standard of pace bowling these days is so poor with the odd exception. Does batsman no favours either as nobody seems capable of playing a well directed short ball peoperly.

Also interesting that these pitches are very different to those the tests were played on....
		
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Very much agree. Hitting a 6 used to be an achievement, hitting an ODI 100 used to be noteworthy. Now they are both just meh, chump change. 

We've now reached the stage where people are watching certain people bat and that's it. (Harks a bit of that famous WG Grace quote)


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 19, 2017)

saving_par said:



			Getting to much like baseball with bowlers forced to bowl into batsmans 'hitting arc'.

Shorter the format the duller it is to watch.

Not a bit of wonder the standard of pace bowling these days is so poor with the odd exception. Does batsman no favours either as nobody seems capable of playing a well directed short ball peoperly.

Also interesting that these pitches are very different to those the tests were played on....
		
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Slightly disagree. T20 is harmless as it is only a few hours of "slap & giggle", Chip Shop Cup cricket was what we called it at club level, and it generates decent revenue for the game.

However, 50 over ODI's and County competitions are incredibly dull with everything weighted in favour of the bat. I went to a Royal London (?) day/nighter last season and can honestly say I have never been so bored on a cricket ground.

For a match of that length to be entertaining the contest between bat and ball needs to be more even.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 19, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			Slightly disagree. T20 is harmless as it is only a few hours of "slap & giggle", Chip Shop Cup cricket was what we called it at club level, and it generates decent revenue for the game.

However, 50 over ODI's and County competitions are incredibly dull with everything weighted in favour of the bat. I went to a Royal London (?) day/nighter last season and can honestly say I have never been so bored on a cricket ground.

 For a match of that length to be entertaining the contest between bat and ball needs to be more even.
		
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Decent bowlers are not allowed to work a batsman over these days in one cricket. Batters have freedom to run down the wicket any ball since they know they are not going to wear in between the eyes as it will be called 'no ball'.

Bowlers totally neutered in one stuff so not worth watching in my opinion and I'm saying that as a cricket lover and long time player of the game.


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## vkurup (Jan 20, 2017)

Despite what we think about 350+ run chases, yesterdays game had one great thing going for it.  After being down 25/3, India did not try to go down in a blaze of glory by hitting it out of the park.  Instead it was wonderful to watch, some might say boring to watch, Yuvraj and Dhoni play out the next few overs and get their eye in.  looking at some stats yesterday, Dhoni scored about 5-6 runs off the first 22 balls before he launched himself. So it was not all wham bam thank you mam affair, ODI still has a place.


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## fundy (Jan 20, 2017)

vkurup said:



			Despite what we think about 350+ run chases, yesterdays game had one great thing going for it.  After being down 25/3, India did not try to go down in a blaze of glory by hitting it out of the park.  Instead it was wonderful to watch, some might say boring to watch, Yuvraj and Dhoni play out the next few overs and get their eye in.  looking at some stats yesterday, Dhoni scored about 5-6 runs off the first 22 balls before he launched himself. So it was not all wham bam thank you mam affair, ODI still has a place.
		
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Of course he did, he knew he could take 10 overs to get in on such a good batting track with tiny boundaries as they couldnt fail to cash in at the back end. Im not disputing Dhoni or Yuvi played well, but the balance is way too stacked towards the batsmen. I sort of get that in T20 (still dont agree with it) but shouldnt be the case in 50 over or test cricket at all.

There was a picture posted of the ball at the end (so 25 overs old) and it had no seam or lacquer left to it , what a bowlers supposed to do on a road with tiny boundaries against 2 guys on a hundred each both wielding massive bats Id love to know (as people keep criticising death bowling)

What is clearly true is they are turning off long standing cricket fans in favour of a "newer audience", lets see if that translates into attendances or whether cricket is digging itself an even bigger financial hole than the one a lot of it is currently in


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 20, 2017)

fundy said:



			What is clearly true is they are turning off long standing cricket fans in favour of a "newer audience", lets see if that translates into attendances or whether cricket is digging itself an even bigger financial hole than the one a lot of it is currently in
		
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100% agree.

A few years ago I was a member at two counties and attended matches of all types but now I no longer bother.

T20 is more about beer than cricket, 50 overs has been the victim of rules favouring the bat over ball, and in view of the scheduling the County Championship appears to be just an inconvenience.

Test matches (Ashes aside) struggle to attract spectators and all the game's administrators eggs are in the one basket of the Chip Shop Cup cricket that is T20.


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## vkurup (Jan 20, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			100% agree.

A few years ago I was a member at two counties and attended matches of all types but now I no longer bother.

T20 is more about beer than cricket, 50 overs has been the victim of rules favouring the bat over ball, and in view of the scheduling the County Championship appears to be just an inconvenience.

*Test matches (Ashes aside) struggle to attract spectators and all the game's administrators eggs are in the one basket of the Chip Shop Cup cricket that is T20.*

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But hasnt the 'game' won by bringing new audience, television rights for the IPL and Big Bash are increasing, players making more money, families coming into watch the game, some coming on week night to watch Thurs T20 bringing revenue to grounds. We say golf is boring and not attracting new folks as Daddy does not have 5 hours for a game.  

Listening to Sky yesterday and they were commenting on the changes Dhoni has made.   About 7-8 years ago, Indian cricket system was very rigid and you had to play for some of the big teams like Mumbai in the domestic game if you wanted to make it to the national side.  Dhoni was a rare exception of a 'small town boy' who broke thru.  But since then and due to IPL, India has gone on to find seam bowlers like Shami, Bhumra, Umesh Yadav etc who bowl seam up, reverse and specialise in death bowling and all of them hail for from small towns in India and would have never gotten a chance to play at this level.  I guess T20 has a very good place in Cricket.  The Tests have been very evenly fought, though England's lack of ability to face Ashwin, Jadeja, Yadav on a turning track means a collapse is imminent.  Even then it was thrilling to watch five days of cricket.  IMO, the only bit that struggles is ODI which seems like a dying option caught between T20 and Tests


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## Tongo (Jan 20, 2017)

vkurup said:



			But hasnt the 'game' won by bringing new audience, television rights for the IPL and Big Bash are increasing, players making more money, families coming into watch the game, some coming on week night to watch Thurs T20 bringing revenue to grounds. We say golf is boring and not attracting new folks as Daddy does not have 5 hours for a game.  

Listening to Sky yesterday and they were commenting on the changes Dhoni has made.   About 7-8 years ago, Indian cricket system was very rigid and you had to play for some of the big teams like Mumbai in the domestic game if you wanted to make it to the national side.  Dhoni was a rare exception of a 'small town boy' who broke thru.  But since then and due to IPL, India has gone on to find seam bowlers like Shami, Bhumra, Umesh Yadav etc who bowl seam up, reverse and specialise in death bowling and all of them hail for from small towns in India and would have never gotten a chance to play at this level.  I guess T20 has a very good place in Cricket.  The Tests have been very evenly fought, though England's lack of ability to face Ashwin, Jadeja, Yadav on a turning track means a collapse is imminent.  Even then it was thrilling to watch five days of cricket.  IMO, the only bit that struggles is ODI which seems like a dying option caught between T20 and Tests
		
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There may be more money around but only for the big 3. It is scandalous how cricket is contracting. The likes of Pakistan, West Indies and Sri Lanka are paupers in comparison. New Zealand and South Africa are not far behind, look at the current Kolpak crisis in SA cricket. Oh yeah, everyone's getting richer (apparently) so it must be great. Meanwhile the game contracts. Football's World Cup expands, Cricket's shrinks.

What chance anyone else joining the party like Ireland or Afghanistan when the ICC tries to muscle them out of the main events? 

Ten years down the line there'll be three countries playing international cricket and the fickle public will have moved on from T20 cricket cos they've found something else to entertain their short attention spans.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 20, 2017)

vkurup said:



			IMO, the only bit that struggles is ODI which seems like a dying option caught between T20 and Tests
		
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Sorry but you are wrong. With only a small number of exceptions attendances at Tests have consistently fallen for some years now.


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## IanM (Jan 20, 2017)

Sometime you just get on the wrong end of a great performance......


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			100% agree.

A few years ago I was a member at two counties and attended matches of all types but now I no longer bother.

T20 is more about beer than cricket, 50 overs has been the victim of rules favouring the bat over ball, and in view of the scheduling the County Championship appears to be just an inconvenience.

Test matches (Ashes aside) struggle to attract spectators and all the game's administrators eggs are in the one basket of the Chip Shop Cup cricket that is T20.
		
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https://www.lords.org/news/2016-2/july/lords-attracts-113/

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/34900083

Figures seem to suggest different


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 20, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.lords.org/news/2016-2/july/lords-attracts-113/

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/34900083

Figures seem to suggest different
		
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Sorry but I don't think they do.

The first source refers to Lords' which always has been and always will be unrepresentative.

The second refers to an Ashes summer and if we ever get to the stage where tickets cannot be sold for those matches we might as well give up altogether.

Durham's problems have a lot to do with attendances at non-Ashes Tests not being sufficient to meet the costs of staging the game. All the other Test venues outside London have faced similar difficulties.

Outside of this country there are massive concerns over the economic viability of Test cricket. Particularly in the West Indies but also in New Zealand and South Africa.Even Australia and India have not proved immune from these concerns.

T20 is currently drawing a new audience but, so far, there has been no evidence that many of those newcomers have gone on to purchase tickets for Test cricket and like others on here I worry that the "fashion" for T20 will wane and cricket as a whole will be struggling to survive.


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## Tongo (Jan 26, 2017)

Great result from England today. Showing their worth at T20 level. 

I do wonder whether the BCCI's policy of not allowing Indian players to play in other T20 leagues is beginning to hamper the Indian national team though.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2017)

Tongo said:



			Great result from England today. Showing their worth at T20 level. 

I do wonder whether the BCCI's policy of not allowing Indian players to play in other T20 leagues is beginning to hamper the Indian national team though.
		
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Good result and a format of the game where we look to have a balanced and talented side. If only we could get this mix right across the board now


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## Kellfire (Feb 1, 2017)

Ahahahahahahahah. 

Hahahahahahaha. 


Hahahahahahahahahahaha


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## fundy (Feb 1, 2017)

Root killed that innings stone dead and put way too much pressure on the rest. Great player that he is Im still far from convinced 3 in T20 is right especially on high scoring tracks. For sure Root and Morgan need to be split up in the order


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## Dan2501 (Feb 1, 2017)

England gonna England


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2017)

Time to put the series to bed and move onto the next series of Test , ODI and T20 

Don't think wholesale changes are needed but expect a bit of tweaking in the test set up - certainly a learning experience for all concerned. 

Can see the ODI team having a very strong Champions Trophy


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## Captainron (Feb 1, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Ahahahahahahahah. 

Hahahahahahaha. 


Hahahahahahahahahahaha
		
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

8/8

That is awful!

Still giggling away here


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## USER1999 (Feb 1, 2017)

Captainron said:



			HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

8/8

That is awful!

Still giggling away here
		
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This has nothing to do with you, move on, nothing to see here.


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## Tongo (Feb 2, 2017)

Its T20 so i've already forgotten what happened in the match. 

Next!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 2, 2017)

Ghastly performance from England and I personally think lessons need to be learned for all formats of the game from this tour. None of the sides were good enough, and I thought the bowlers particularly in the tests and one day internationals didn't perform well enough at all and never looked like turning games


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## vkurup (Feb 3, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Ghastly performance from England and I personally think lessons need to be learned for all formats of the game from this tour. None of the sides were good enough, and I thought the bowlers particularly in the tests and one day internationals didn't perform well enough at all and never looked like turning games
		
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On a positive note.. Ben Stokes will in all likelihood get into the IPL and earn a few quids.  I wont be surprised if Billings, Roy, Morgan (?), Jordan (?) make it too.  What about every cloud silver et al..


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