# Speeding fine.



## dewsweeper (Feb 1, 2016)

I have just been given a Â£100 fine and 3 points for exceeding 30 mph limit by 5 mph.
Just wondering if it is worth appealing this on the grounds of car speedo tolerances ?
Would just hold my hands up and cough up but according to the local paper this camera seems to be sited less for road safety and more about income.


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## Rooter (Feb 1, 2016)

At best they would give you a 10% tolerance, that would be 33mph. so suck it up and pay the fine me thinks.


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## Dando (Feb 1, 2016)

did you not get the option of a speed awareness course?


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 1, 2016)

Might depend on the motor you were caught speeding in.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 1, 2016)

Rooter said:



			At best they would give you a 10% tolerance, that would be 33mph. so suck it up and pay the fine me thinks.
		
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This may be right but I thought that ACPO guidelines were / or used to be 10% tolerance +2 mph, but that may be old news now. Also they were only guidelines and it's down to the magistrates to decide if you do contest it, in which case the penalty increases should your appeal be chucked out.

Ah - just checked as I typed and found this link, so looks like you can't really appeal based purely on tolerance either, but depending on the nick of your licence then a speed awareness course looks possible.

http://www.ukmotorists.com/Speed Enforcement Policy Guidelines for UK Police Forces.asp


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## pokerjoke (Feb 1, 2016)

Take the fine and points and learn from it,its 30mph for a reason.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2016)

Herself was done for doing 33 in a 30mph zone... She queried about there being any tolerance and was told this was at the discretion of the local chief of police... Where she was caught [North Wales] it was absolute zero tolerance.... About the only time in her life she has uttered a swear word...


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## Khamelion (Feb 1, 2016)

Depends on how you were caught, if it was speed camera (mobile, fixed or hand held) I think you just have to suck it up. If it was by being followed by a patrol car, again suck it up, their speedos are calibrated quite regularly and they have the tools in car to check speeds accurately.

If however it was a dog van of similar, you could ask for the speedo to be checked and you have a very faint outside chance of getting off.

My old man was a traffic cop for 30yrs, and he quite regularly had to go out and calibrate panda car speedos and in some instances they were well out.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2016)

dewsweeper said:



			I have just been given a Â£100 fine and 3 points for exceeding 30 mph limit by 5 mph.
Just wondering if it is worth appealing this on the grounds of car speedo tolerances ?
Would just hold my hands up and cough up but according to the local paper this camera seems to be sited less for road safety and more about income.
		
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The fine at the moment (Â£100) is based on you accepting you were guilty. If you appeal on the grounds of tolerance I have a feeling you will be unsuccessful. If you appeal in essence you cannot say you are guilty but the tolerance bit could be wrong. The courts will look and say your guilty. The fine will then not stay at Â£100, it will increase and will the involve court costs etc. You may well be paying more than twice the amount.
Ask to go on a driver awareness course, it will be about the same amount but will save you three points, and educate you. Don't mean to sound patronising but you know what I mean.
have a look at page 131 on magistrates sentence guidelines. The 3 points are for speeding in a 30 mph from 31  - 40 mph. Tolerances are not considered.
You will be bogged off with getting the points and fine but not as bogged off as going to court and coming away having lost your case.
hope it helps me man.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			The fine at the moment (Â£100) is based on you accepting you were guilty. If you appeal on the grounds of tolerance I have a feeling you will be unsuccessful. If you appeal in essence you cannot say you are guilty but the tolerance bit could be wrong. The courts will look and say your guilty. The fine will then not stay at Â£100, it will increase and will the involve court costs etc. You may well be paying more than twice the amount.
Ask to go on a driver awareness course, it will be about the same amount but will save you three points, and educate you. Don't mean to sound patronising but you know what I mean.
have a look at page 131 on magistrates court sentencing  guidelines. The 3 points are for speeding in a 30 mph from 31  - 40 mph. Tolerances are not considered.
You will be bogged off with getting the points and fine but not as bogged off as going to court and coming away having lost your case.
hope it helps me man. All the best Tashyboy. Don't know why it has posted twice.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2016)

My Mrs got done doing 35mph in a 30mph zone - on her way to hospital with my toothbrush just after I'd been admitted with as suspected heart attack.  She - annoyed with herself - shrugged her shoulders, paid the fine and took the points as she knew that a few minutes earlier at hospital with my toothbrush wouldn't have made any difference - and claiming she was distracted by my condition isn't a great excuse either for careless or inattentive driving.  Pay up - take points.


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## Fish (Feb 1, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Take the fine and points and learn from it,its 30mph for a reason.
		
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And a maximum 30mph in perfect driving conditions!  When was this, day, time, conditions? 

Too many people think that because it's 30, 40, 70 etc that you should drive at that speed!


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## Rooter (Feb 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			Too many people think that because it's 30, 40, 70 etc that you should drive at that speed!
		
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My old instructor told me its the maximum! Not a target!


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## Fish (Feb 1, 2016)

Rooter said:



			My old instructor told me its the maximum! Not a target!
		
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Exactly, so playing devils advocate, if you were at 35mph at 7pm in the rain, your appeal would fall on very deaf ears!

I have excellent experience on this subject, I've had as many speeding issues as I've had infractions &#128540;&#128540;


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 1, 2016)

Dando said:



			did you not get the option of a speed awareness course?
		
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there Â£100 these days too!


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## Fish (Feb 1, 2016)

pbrown7582 said:



			there Â£100 these days too!
		
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Yep, and a little more in some areas, they only keep the points off the licence, not worth it IMO as I think it's over 4-days, I wouldn't waste that amount of time on such a course.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			I wouldn't waste that amount of time on such a course.
		
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Some thickos might get to learn what average means...

New cameras have been put in place, around these parts, to enable penalties to be based on average speed... From what I have heard, many of those caught have been saying they didn't understand what average speed meant... 

Been quite amusing watching vehicles race on by at intergalactic speeds then see their brake lights light up as they approach the new cameras like that's going to help them...


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 1, 2016)

And don't forget you have to advise your indurance co now if you do a speed awareness course..... the days of not telling them are gone.


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## Ethan (Feb 1, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Take the fine and points and learn from it,its 30mph for a reason.
		
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And the reason is often that it is a good earner.


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## Ethan (Feb 1, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And don't forget you have to advise your indurance co now if you do a speed awareness course..... the days of not telling them are gone.
		
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Depends on the insurance company.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 1, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Depends on the insurance company.
		
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Only for a very short time. Now some have started it, it's only a matter of time before they all do. Just as local authorities and the Police use cameras as a cash cow.....


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## Norrin Radd (Feb 1, 2016)

the original idea of the cameras positioning was at accident black spots,it would appear that that remit is not the case any more as the two in my town are where its just easy to catch people ,i cant ever remember an accident at either place.


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## Ethan (Feb 1, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Only for a very short time. Now some have started it, it's only a matter of time before they all do. Just as local authorities and the Police use cameras as a cash cow.....
		
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Perhaps. But not yet a requirement from all.


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## delc (Feb 1, 2016)

One of my friends who had never been done for speeding before in his entire life, was extremely miffed when he was caught doing 34 mph on a country lane that just happened to be on the edge of a 30 zone. As he said, he wasn't driving dangerously and he was safer keeping his eyes on the road than the speedo. He took the speed awareness course.  

I can think of several roads I use regularly where speed traps and cameras pretty much amount to entrapment, due to poor signage, often dirty or hidden behind foliage. Can one appeal on those grounds?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			Yep, and a little more in some areas, they only keep the points off the licence, not worth it IMO as I think it's over 4-days, I wouldn't waste that amount of time on such a course.
		
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You would if - like my wife - you were sitting on 6 points.  She said that the course (an afternoon) was well worth it - a real eye-opener that has made a significant impact on her driving and speed awareness.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2016)

Apparently, the stopping distance difference between 30mph and 35mph is 22ft. As a failed pedestrian, and I was on the pavement, I have no sympathy at all for those that speed in built up areas.

I'd like to see a Â£300 fine and a ban for anyone doing 5mph over the limit in a built up area.


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## Paperboy (Feb 1, 2016)

Fish said:



			Yep, and a little more in some areas, they only keep the points off the licence, not worth it IMO as I think it's over 4-days, I wouldn't waste that amount of time on such a course.
		
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Course is no more then 3 hours.


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## dewsweeper (Feb 1, 2016)

Not quite the wholesale castigation I expected!
I will take my punishment as it seems to be the concensus.
Sorry to hear about your accident Hobbit.


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## Tarkus1212 (Feb 1, 2016)

Paperboy said:



			Course is no more then 3 hours.
		
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Must differ in areas, mine was 4 hours and we were told that it was part of the punishment, we weren't allowed to leave one minute early.


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## Tarkus1212 (Feb 1, 2016)

Tashyboy said:





Tashyboy said:



			The fine at the moment (Â£100) is based on you accepting you were guilty. If you appeal on the grounds of tolerance I have a feeling you will be unsuccessful. If you appeal in essence you cannot say you are guilty but the tolerance bit could be wrong. The courts will look and say your guilty. The fine will then not stay at Â£100, it will increase and will the involve court costs etc. You may well be paying more than twice the amount.
*Ask to go on a driver awareness course*, it will be about the same amount but will save you three points, and educate you. Don't mean to sound patronising but you know what I mean.
have a look at page 131 on magistrates court sentencing  guidelines. The 3 points are for speeding in a 30 mph from 31  - 40 mph. Tolerances are not considered.
You will be bogged off with getting the points and fine but not as bogged off as going to court and coming away having lost your case.
hope it helps me man. All the best Tashyboy. Don't know why it has posted twice.
		
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You can't ask to go on one, it has to be offered.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2016)

Tarkus1212 said:





Tashyboy said:



			You can't ask to go on one, it has to be offered.
		
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And if you've accepted the offer to go on one in lieu of points - you won't get offered it the next time you are a miscreant.
		
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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 1, 2016)

Not during the following 3 years, but after that you could be.


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## Khamelion (Feb 1, 2016)

Speed is subjective to many and many abuse the speed limits because they think they no better. I mean those are the drivers who blatantly flout the speed limit on purpose, not those who are driving a few miles a hour over.

Whickham council has put in place a 20mph speed limit through out the entire main street, surrounding roads and estates, the local residents are up in arms about it and to be fair, I only pass through when going to the golf course, but 20mph is creating chaos.

I went to the club the other night and from the 20mph sign I stuck on cruise control and stuck to dot on 20mph, I had, I counted them 10 cars in a convoy behind me. To be fair not one tried to overtake me, but I could see the face of the bloke directly behind me and he was not a happy bunny.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 1, 2016)

Many of Londons Boroughs have brought in the 20 mph limit, with cameras to enforce it. Apart from the agravation to drivers it causes, you also get many pedestrians who now consider the roads their walkways and ignore anything and walk striaght into the road.

There is no joy in driving anymore.


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## Khamelion (Feb 1, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Many of Londons Boroughs have brought in the 20 mph limit, with cameras to enforce it. Apart from the agravation to drivers it causes, you also get many pedestrians who now consider the roads their walkways and ignore anything and walk striaght into the road.

There is no joy in driving anymore.
		
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Pedestrians forget metal is thicker than skin and paths are where they should be.


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## Spartacus (Feb 1, 2016)

Pedestrian or Zebra crossings play a big part in the over 30 in a 30 case. No excuses.

The people who complain about being caught do so because they've actually been caught. A moan if you like. 

If you don't like the fine then don't do the crime.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 1, 2016)

Thats a different kettle of fish. I'm talking about pedestrians who just walk out across the road at any point just because it's  a 20mph area. Regardless of your views of  speeding, to walk straight out into the road is just plain stupid.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 1, 2016)

pbrown7582 said:



			there Â£100 these days too!
		
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Â£80.00 for me today!!
Pure coincidence I attended a speed awareness course this morning in Sunderland, 4 hours long, caught doing 77 on a Dual Carriageway at 07:30hrs 3 sundays a go.
2 course in 8 years, no excuses.
Course has changed dramatically since my first one, now it's more about hazard perception than them telling you off for 4 hours like the first.
All fixed cameras are put in place by Local Authority permission, Police can request for fixed cameras to be placed, however, they must prove there are instances of loss of life or serious injuries have happened in that area. So rather than view the cameras as annoying, maybe we should see them as a warning to what has took place there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Apparently, the stopping distance difference between 30mph and 35mph is 22ft. As a failed pedestrian, and I was on the pavement, I have no sympathy at all for those that speed in built up areas.

I'd like to see a Â£300 fine and a ban for anyone doing 5mph over the limit in a built up area.
		
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You should be OK now with only tractors and sheep on the roads:lol:

My wee grandson made me laugh the other day when he said, 'Papa, I know where all the hidden speed cameras are in Glasgow' 
Seemingly his table tennis coach is a Glasgow traffic police sergeant.


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## JollyRedDevil (Feb 1, 2016)

I was in a similar situation about 15 years ago.
Went to court, wasted 5 hours of my life, fine was increased from Â£100 to Â£180 + Â£35 court costs. Points increased from 3 to 4.
Not worth it.


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## Ian_Bristol (Feb 1, 2016)

I was done for speeding and the wife moaned like hell at me as I always comment on her driving speeds,any way I went on the speed awareness course which was held at Stockwood Vale Golf Club , I was in a rush that morning and forgot to take my wallet and when I got there I was asked for my licence which I keep in mt wallet I had to rebook and pay the fee again. Can't say what the wife called me.


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## dewsweeper (Feb 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You should be OK now with only tractors and sheep on the roads:lol:

My wee grandson made me laugh the other day when he said, 'Papa, I know where all the hidden speed cameras are in Glasgow' 
Seemingly his table tennis coach is a Glasgow traffic police sergeant.
		
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Thanks Doon.
As the original poster I did commiserate with Hobbit.
I must say I did want to add something like your observations but decided it may have been misunderstood.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2016)

dewsweeper said:



			Thanks Doon.
As the original poster I did commiserate with Hobbit.
I must say I did want to add something like your observations but decided it may have been misunderstood.
		
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Being a grumpy old git, in 24/7 pain for the last 10 yrs and with an op on the horizon, I probably would have struggled to see the funny side.


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## dewsweeper (Feb 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Being a grumpy old git, in 24/7 pain for the last 10 yrs and with an op on the horizon, I probably would have struggled to see the funny side.
		
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Just as well I was circumspect then Hobbit.

I am probably older than you and have been a GOM for years, at work in the Fire Service my nickname was "Victor".
Hope your op goes well.I am on my second hip op which seems to upset my back but both still here annoying the younger posters.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Being a grumpy old git 24/7 a pain in the ass for the last 10 yrs and with an op on the horizon, I probably would have struggled to see the funny side.
		
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 Sorted that for you Brian.


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## dewsweeper (Feb 1, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Sorted that for you Brian. 

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LOL


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Sorted that for you Brian. 

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Yep, spot on. That's why I moved to Scotland, where they're all grumpy


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## williamalex1 (Feb 1, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Yep, spot on. That's why I moved to Scotland, where they're all grumpy
		
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You're welcome mate and the best of luck :thup:.  When is your operation and how long before you're able to play again ?.


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## palindromicbob (Feb 1, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Herself was done for doing 33 in a 30mph zone... She queried about there being any tolerance and was told this was at the discretion of the local chief of police... Where she was caught [North Wales] it was absolute zero tolerance.... About the only time in her life she has uttered a swear word...
		
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I once got pulled over and warned in Wrexham after going through a left hand turn give way sign without slowing down.  I was going to Tesco and they pulled me up at the car park.   Police asked me how fast I was going and I replied "I don't think I was going more than 30". Given the rounds about and other things I had to navigate I'd doubt I came close.  They warned me that I was going faster than that round the corner because they had to do nearly 40mph to catch up with me. 

Imagine having to go faster than the person in front to catch up. Shocking.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			You're welcome mate and the best of luck :thup:.  When is your operation and how long before you're able to play again ?.
		
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see the Consultant on Friday.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 1, 2016)

I agree with what Ethan said about speed cameras etc. being something of a nice little earner, 

Oh, and before the moral majority piles in vilifying me as some kind of boy-racing evil monster.

I drive EVERYWHERE adhering to every speed limit absolutely following all to the letter of the law, which I might add, is more than nearly all my fellow road users do. It's amazing how when driving out in the country in a 60 zone and then coming to a village where the limit is 30, how many the following vehicles get so close to mine as to practically try and run me off the road.

My job involves driving for a living and as the years have passed and technology has improved allowing 33mph to be recorded accurately, I hear of more and more colleagues being nabbed for doing what would previously never have been noticed by the boys in blue. 33 in a 30, 43 in a 40 and so on.

Although not not being in any way an expert lip-reader I have every opportunity to observe, in my rear-view mirror, those who seem to be hellbent on getting their vehicle inside my boot because I'm observing speed limits religiously. The swearing and invective aimed at me is extraordinary, and that's only the grannies and clergy.

Where are the Police when this is going on? I find the intimidation factor of others who don't care a monkey's for speed limits extremely distressful over the course of a day, but as authorities can rely upon parked-up camera vans to pinch enough people casually, then the head bangers don't really have to worry.

The application of zero tolerance is laughably pathetic, and reliance is on enough people being automatically nicked by Gatsos and vans for doing 33, rather than the apprehending of complete barmpots for doing 50 & 60 through built up areas, particularly when said eejits know there's no-one out there to stop them.


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## Spartacus (Feb 1, 2016)

^I'm with that.


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## Robster59 (Feb 1, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			I agree with what Ethan said about speed cameras etc. being something of a nice little earner, 

Oh, and before the moral majority piles in vilifying me as some kind of boy-racing evil monster.

I drive EVERYWHERE adhering to every speed limit absolutely following all to the letter of the law, which I might add, is more than nearly all my fellow road users do. It's amazing how when driving out in the country in a 60 zone and then coming to a village where the limit is 30, how many the following vehicles get so close to mine as to practically try and run me off the road.

My job involves driving for a living and as the years have passed and technology has improved allowing 33mph to be recorded accurately, I hear of more and more colleagues being nabbed for doing what would previously never have been noticed by the boys in blue. 33 in a 30, 43 in a 40 and so on.

Although not not being in any way an expert lip-reader I have every opportunity to observe, in my rear-view mirror, those who seem to be hellbent on getting their vehicle inside my boot because I'm observing speed limits religiously. The swearing and invective aimed at me is extraordinary, and that's only the grannies and clergy.

Where are the Police when this is going on? I find the intimidation factor of others who don't care a monkey's for speed limits extremely distressful over the course of a day, but as authorities can rely upon parked-up camera vans to pinch enough people casually, then the head bangers don't really have to worry.

The application of zero tolerance is laughably pathetic, and reliance is on enough people being automatically nicked by Gatsos and vans for doing 33, rather than the apprehending of complete barmpots for doing 50 & 60 through built up areas, particularly when said eejits know there's no-one out there to stop them.
		
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Like yourself, I do a lot of driving for a living and have to say I do stick to all the speed limits (knowingly at least).  I am absolutely adamant about not speeding in a 30 zone and my missus has moaned at me more than once about it but 30mph limits are generally in built-up areas and so I don't want to think my reckless driving was responsible for the demise of an individual.
I do 30k miles a year and if l lost my licence I'd lose my job.  Not worth the risk.


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## Val (Feb 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You would if - like my wife - you were sitting on 6 points.  She said that the course (an afternoon) was well worth it - a real eye-opener that has made a significant impact on her driving and speed awareness.
		
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Likewise here


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## Birchy (Feb 1, 2016)

I've done the speed awareness course and it was the worst ordeal of my life. 4 hours I will never get back.

I would rather caddie for Lincoln Quaker in a medal than do that again :rofl:


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## Captainron (Feb 1, 2016)

Birchy said:



			I've done the speed awareness course and it was the worst ordeal of my life. 4 hours I will never get back.

I would rather caddie for Lincoln Quaker in a medal than do that again :rofl:
		
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I've got mine on Tuesday next week. Looking forward to it now that I know you hated it.


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## Captainron (Feb 1, 2016)

I've got no problem with speeding cameras and in fact I think they should have more.  Forget accident black spots I think they should put them in places where people are likely to speed.   That way they can catch people who are breaking the law and make money at the same time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2016)

Living in a rural area I can tell you that there is a hell of a difference between a baby Fiat going past a primary school at 30mph and a convoy of three fully laden log lorry doing likewise.


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2016)

Birchy said:



			I've done the speed awareness course and it was the worst ordeal of my life. 4 hours I will never get back.

I would rather caddie for Lincoln Quaker in a medal than do that again :rofl:
		
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But that will take way more than 4 hrs, and include loads of off-roading...


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## 6inchcup (Feb 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Herself was done for doing 33 in a 30mph zone... She queried about there being any tolerance and was told this was at the discretion of the local chief of police... Where she was caught [North Wales] it was absolute zero tolerance.... About the only time in her life she has uttered a swear word...
		
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i got done twice by the same camera just outside prestatyn gc both times didnt see the van and doing 32mph going down hill on a right hand bend,you can go on the net and its a local landmark its done that many people.


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## rudebhoy (Feb 2, 2016)

6inchcup said:



			i got done twice by the same camera just outside prestatyn gc both times didnt see the van and doing 32mph going down hill on a right hand bend,you can go on the net and its a local landmark its done that many people.
		
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I got done in very similar circumstances last weekend, while in Scarborough for a couple of days. Came down a steep hill, van hidden in bushes got me, 36 in a 30 mph zone. 

I had no idea it was a 30mph zone, it is not built up, nothing on either side of the road other than woods, and no pedestrians about.

I thought I must have missed a sign, so googled the road and "speed limit" and found this in a document on the N Yorks police website

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]*Site assessment information*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Road Type[/TD]
[TD]Single[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Speed Limit[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TRO -  Y/N[/TD]
[TD]N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Speed signage[/TD]
[TD]N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Camera signage[/TD]
[TD]N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Proximity to other limits[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Street Lighting[/TD]
[TD]Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Site lines / visibility[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


so, no signs, no buildings and no pedestrians .... what chance have you got?


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 2, 2016)

rudebhoy said:



			so, no signs, no buildings and no pedestrians .... what chance have you got?
		
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Blackpool, south prom (past the pleasure beach for those who know the area) in winter. Deserted, no parked cars, no pedestrians, road 4 lanes wide, speed limit 30mph. Speed camera there every other day. Same stretch in summer, parked cars on both sides, plenty of people about mostly families with children, speed camera never seen. You know why? Because when the conditions are like that nearly everyone will only do 30 or less and the odd one they catch doesn't justify the effort even though that "odd one" may be the one who will actually hurt or kill someones kid. They will be on some deserted country road continuing to fill the coffers. Arbitrary limits without tolerance, discretion and common sense being applied nearly always make the law an ass.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Some thickos might get to learn what average means...

New cameras have been put in place, around these parts, to enable penalties to be based on average speed... From what I have heard, many of those caught have been saying they didn't understand what average speed meant... 

*Been quite amusing watching vehicles race on by at intergalactic speeds then see their brake lights light up as they approach the new cameras like that's going to help them.*..
		
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They still do that in Nottingham and the average speed cameras have been here for over a decade now I think.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2016)

The most frightened I get now is when I go down the M1 on a Wednesday evening around 9.30pm every week.  They are doing roadworks there for the past 2 years I think to make the hard shoulder into a running lane.  I mean how long does it take to do that??  

Anyway, it's a 50 limit with the average speed cameras, and I stick to the limit give or take a couple of mph as call me old fashioned, but I do like to concentrate on the road in front of me instead of being constantly glued to my speedo in case I go 2 mph over the limit.  But I then get huge artic lorries coming right up my arse, I had one the other week that literally must have been a yard away from me as I was overtaking another lorry in the middle lane. I'm sure as I drive an Audi they find it funny to get revenge or something like that, but it is incredibly scary and did leave me quite shook up.  I wish I had one of those cameras to film it, as I get it most weeks.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2016)

It is facile to say that 31mph is dangerous and 29mph is not. Depends on road conditions, traffic density, time of day, condition of car, driver capability and other factors. And speed limits can move from national speed limit to 40mph in one step. It isn't safe to do 60 50 yards on one side of the sign but not 50 yards the other side. Driving at a speed appropriate to road conditions is the key. 

Speed is chosen because it is measurable and there are instruments available. Pity there wasn't something to measure whether Mums driving MPVs full of kids were distracted and not paying attention to the road. I have never had a point on my license, but I have come close to a couple of accidents through a Mum crossing the middle of the road while turned into the back shouting at a kid.


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## hovis (Feb 2, 2016)

rudebhoy said:



			I got done in very similar circumstances last weekend, while in Scarborough for a couple of days. Came down a steep hill, van hidden in bushes got me, 36 in a 30 mph zone. 

I had no idea it was a 30mph zone, it is not built up, nothing on either side of the road other than woods, and no pedestrians about.

I thought I must have missed a sign, so googled the road and "speed limit" and found this in a document on the N Yorks police website

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]*Site assessment information*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Road Type[/TD]
[TD]Single[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Speed Limit[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TRO -  Y/N[/TD]
[TD]N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Speed signage[/TD]
[TD]N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Camera signage[/TD]
[TD]N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Proximity to other limits[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Street Lighting[/TD]
[TD]Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Site lines / visibility[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


so, no signs, no buildings and no pedestrians .... what chance have you got?
		
Click to expand...

An easy way to remember the speed limit is

Is there street lights?   Yes, then speed limit is 30 unless signage says different 

Is there Street lights? No?  National speed limit unless signage says different


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2016)

hovis said:



			An easy way to remember the speed limit is

Is there street lights?   Yes, then speed limit is 30 unless signage says different 

Is there Street lights? No?  National speed limit unless signage says different
		
Click to expand...

Good job there isn't (sic) points for grammar offences.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			The most frightened I get now is when I go down the M1 on a Wednesday evening around 9.30pm every week.  They are doing roadworks there for the past 2 years I think to make the hard shoulder into a running lane.  I mean how long does it take to do that??  

Anyway, it's a 50 limit with the average speed cameras, and I stick to the limit give or take a couple of mph as call me old fashioned, but I do like to concentrate on the road in front of me instead of being constantly glued to my speedo in case I go 2 mph over the limit.  But I then get huge artic lorries coming right up my arse, I had one the other week that literally must have been a yard away from me as I was overtaking another lorry in the middle lane. I'm sure as I drive an Audi they find it funny to get revenge or something like that, but it is incredibly scary and did leave me quite shook up.  I wish I had one of those cameras to film it, as I get it most weeks.
		
Click to expand...

Get the name of the company and contact them about their drivers driving dangerously, they can soon spot the driver from their stats.
My Mrs has done that on a few occasions when I have been driving.
The company are usually quite pleased to get that info.
On one occasion delighted, not sure what that was about.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2016)

Ethan said:



			It is facile to say that 31mph is dangerous and 29mph is not. Depends on road conditions, traffic density, time of day, condition of car, driver capability and other factors. And speed limits can move from national speed limit to 40mph in one step. It isn't safe to do 60 50 yards on one side of the sign but not 50 yards the other side. Driving at a speed appropriate to road conditions is the key. 

Speed is chosen because it is measurable and there are instruments available. Pity there wasn't something to measure whether* Mums driving MPVs full of kids were distracted and not paying attention to the road*. I have never had a point on my license, but I have come close to a couple of accidents through a Mum crossing the middle of the road while turned into the back shouting at a kid.
		
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Weirdly enough there is a bypass near me that used to be 60, no houses, dual carriageway, well lit, only one road feeds onto it. And there were 2 road deaths on it.  One was someone jumping off a bridge onto the road, and one was exactly as you said, a tragic incident with a mother (and it could easily have been a father as well, this ain't a man/woman thing) turning round to talk to her kid.  Crossed the reservation into a car coming the other way.  Think the driver of the other car was killed.  

Neither had anything to do with speed, but they then went and reduced it to 40 and then up to 50 in some parts.  And if they are after some cash they just sit with a speed camera and get loads of drivers as whilst it's the limit, there seems to be no rational reason why it is 40 so many people don't do 40.  Agree that is drivers own silly fault really, but the speed limit on a dual carriageway with no houses/pedestrians anywhere near it is only 10mph more than outside my daughters primary school in a very busy built up area.  Stupid.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Weirdly enough there is a bypass near me that used to be 60, no houses, dual carriageway, well lit, only one road feeds onto it. And there were 2 road deaths on it.  One was someone jumping off a bridge onto the road, and one was exactly as you said, a tragic incident with a mother (and it could easily have been a father as well, this ain't a man/woman thing) turning round to talk to her kid.  Crossed the reservation into a car coming the other way.  Think the driver of the other car was killed.  

Neither had anything to do with speed, but they then went and reduced it to 40 and then up to 50 in some parts.  And if they are after some cash they just sit with a speed camera and get loads of drivers as whilst it's the limit, there seems to be no rational reason why it is 40 so many people don't do 40.  Agree that is drivers own silly fault really, but the speed limit on a dual carriageway with no houses/pedestrians anywhere near it is only 10mph more than outside my daughters primary school in a very busy built up area.  Stupid.
		
Click to expand...

If one of those Mums totalled her MPV and killed herself, the headline in the paper would not describe a reckless mother who left her children motherless and endangered other road users through her inattention. It would be all tragedy and sorrow. But if a single bloke stuffs his car into the lamppost doing 3 mph over the limit, the headlines would not be so sympathetic.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 2, 2016)

Since I got a car with cruise control I use it all the time on motorways just to be sure I stick to the limits. It's got speed limiting as well but I don't like that as much. 

Also,  having a digital speedo it reads 74 when the Satnav says 70 and 33 when the Satnav reads 30


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## rudebhoy (Feb 2, 2016)

hovis said:



			An easy way to remember the speed limit is

Is there street lights?   Yes, then speed limit is 30 unless signage says different 

Is there Street lights? No?  National speed limit unless signage says different
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, have to confess I didn't know about the street lights thing (I probably did when I passed my test, but that was 30 years ago!), but I will remember it from now on ...


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## Rooter (Feb 2, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			It's got speed limiting as well but I don't like that as much.
		
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My old BMW had one of those, its set at 155mph out of the factory. Killjoys.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 2, 2016)

My job often takes me to the centre of London, but unless I can't avoid it I will NEVER take a car.

There are cameras - speed, box junction, red light and bus lane everywhere. Try coming off the Westway and driving down the Marylebone Road to Pentonville and you'll be a jibbering wreck.

As I've said already I'm a boring old git and always adhere to all road traffic laws. 

Last time on the route above I got so fed up with lorries trying to force me into box junctions that weren't clear. On keeping my eyes slavishly on the speedo and not the road ahead, on trying to decipher the multiple signage instructions and hoping I had complied with them all. It's just totally distressing and by the time you get home you worry about what's following in the post two weeks later!

The Orwellian nightmare is here and we as a country seem only too delighted to embrace it with open arms.

I am not pro-speeding in any way, but feel that the application and enforcement of these and other motoring misdemeanours needs a radical overhaul. Some common sense ought to be applied, and the reliance on robots and technology without any human discretion should be dispensed with forthwith.


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## Val (Feb 2, 2016)

hovis said:



			An easy way to remember the speed limit is

Is there street lights?   Yes, then speed limit is 30 unless signage says different 

Is there Street lights? No?  National speed limit unless signage says different
		
Click to expand...

So you've done the course too


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Since I got a car with cruise control I use it all the time on motorways just to be sure I stick to the limits. It's got speed limiting as well but I don't like that as much. 

Also,  having a digital speedo it reads 74 when the Satnav says 70 and 33 when the Satnav reads 30
		
Click to expand...

I do this also with speed limiter - and have shown my Mrs how to do it as she's paranoid about speeding.  I find it dead useful when in 50mph average speed zones.  Just get car to 48mph and switch it on.


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## patricks148 (Feb 2, 2016)

were you done by a speed camera or police?

the reason i ask is, i was pulled over for driving out if a 30 zone into a nat speed limit area up here.

the two offices managed to spell the make of the car wrong, put the wrong date on and the incorrect reg number on the ticket, i turned up at court and it was thrown out.


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## dewsweeper (Feb 2, 2016)

Just a footnote to the thread.
I have paid the fine and await the points,
Interesting views all round.
Just to stir the pot a little, with the abundance of 20 mph limits that now apply  in all residential areas are all of you 'no tolerance for speeders '  obeying these with same respect for the law?


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 2, 2016)

dewsweeper said:



			Just a footnote to the thread.
I have paid the fine and await the points,
Interesting views all round.
Just to stir the pot a little, with the abundance of 20 mph limits that now apply  in all residential areas are all of you 'no tolerance for speeders '  obeying these with same respect for the law?
		
Click to expand...


Of course they're not.
Most cars will struggle to stay at 20mph , and would have to stay in such a low gear to do so will create loads more pollution just as it has been proved you get greater localised pollution at speed camera sites.


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## upsidedown (Feb 2, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Also,  having a digital speedo it reads 74 when the Satnav says 70 and 33 when the Satnav reads 30
		
Click to expand...

That's interesting as our sat nav reads the other way, car says 73 , sat nav says 70 !!


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			That's interesting as our sat nav reads the other way, car says 73 , sat nav says 70 !!
		
Click to expand...

Aren't you agreeing, speedo overreads compared to Satnav?


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## upsidedown (Feb 2, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Since I got a car with cruise control I use it all the time on motorways just to be sure I stick to the limits. It's got speed limiting as well but I don't like that as much. 

Also,  having a digital speedo it reads 74 when the Satnav says 70 and 33 when the Satnav reads 30
		
Click to expand...




Ethan said:



			Aren't you agreeing, speedo overreads compared to Satnav?
		
Click to expand...

Doh read it wrong


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## Region3 (Feb 2, 2016)

Could be a myth of the proportion of a lot of golf rules, but I read a long time ago that it's illegal for manufacturers to sell a car with the speedo reading low.

They don't try to make it spot on and accept a few mph either side, they make it read high so they can't produce one that accidentally reads low.

This is why I always thought it strange having a 10% + X mph 'allowance', because unless you've messed with the wheel size you already have some breathing space if you go by your speedo.

To be doing 35mph the speedo is probably reading almost 40.


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## Maninblack4612 (Feb 2, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Aren't you agreeing, speedo overreads compared to Satnav?
		
Click to expand...

Yes,  he is!


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## hovis (Feb 2, 2016)

Val said:



			So you've done the course too 

Click to expand...

Yes i have.    BUSTED &#128512;


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 2, 2016)

I've just been watching this Car Crash Britain Caught on Camera programme that highlighted many instances of appalling driving, many of which resulted in no charges having been brought by the boys in blue.

So call me cynical then, but it seems hurtling through a 30 zone at 32 is a chargeable offence, whereas turning into the path of an oncoming vehicle at speed causing a serious accident, or losing control and smashing into a Subway store, mounting the pavement, narrowly avoiding killing people inside and on the pavement too merits no action at all.

If I didn't know any better I'd start to think that fixed speed cameras and vans etc. are there to raise revenue rather than save us from dangerous motorists


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## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 2, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Herself was done for doing 33 in a 30mph zone... She queried about there being any tolerance and was told this was at the discretion of the local chief of police... Where she was caught [North Wales] it was absolute zero tolerance.... About the only time in her life she has uttered a swear word...
		
Click to expand...

Probably in the reign of Herr Brunstrom when his road policing policies made national headlines. I think The Sun twice recorded his daughter going over 60mph in a 50 zone but nothing came of it.


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## Robster59 (Feb 2, 2016)

upsidedown said:



			That's interesting as our sat nav reads the other way, car says 73 , sat nav says 70 !!
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that the same way?


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## upsidedown (Feb 2, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Since I got a car with cruise control I use it all the time on motorways just to be sure I stick to the limits. It's got speed limiting as well but I don't like that as much. 

Also,  having a digital speedo it reads 74 when the Satnav says 70 and 33 when the Satnav reads 30
		
Click to expand...




Robster59 said:



			Isn't that the same way?
		
Click to expand...

see post 82


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## Robster59 (Feb 2, 2016)

lol missed that.

How much over the limit is acceptable?  I don't argue with it.  It's funny how speeding is one aspect of breaking the law that many people to think is acceptable.

I'd like to know what happened to the campaign to crack down on Lane 2&3 hoggers on the motorway.  It's still depressingly widespread, disruptive and dangerous.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 2, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			The Orwellian nightmare is here and we as a country seem only too delighted to embrace it with open arms.

I am not pro-speeding in any way, but feel that the application and enforcement of these and other motoring misdemeanours needs a radical overhaul. Some common sense ought to be applied, and the reliance on robots and technology without any human discretion should be dispensed with forthwith.
		
Click to expand...

It used to be applied with common sense, a degree of sympathy or a rod of iron where appropriate.  Unfortunate Traffic Police Officers require training, take holidays, occasionally go sick, require cars or motorcycles to patrol in and thus are far more expensive than cameras.  I'm sure you can draw your own conclusion as to why they are a vanishing breed; I know I have.



Region3 said:



			Could be a myth of the proportion of a lot of golf rules, but I read a long time ago that it's illegal for manufacturers to sell a car with the speedo reading low.

They don't try to make it spot on and accept a few mph either side, they make it read high so they can't produce one that accidentally reads low.

This is why I always thought it strange having a 10% + X mph 'allowance', because unless you've messed with the wheel size you already have some breathing space if you go by your speedo.

To be doing 35mph the speedo is probably reading almost 40.
		
Click to expand...

It is.  IIRC it used to be under the old Regs that it could not under read, and could over read by up to 10%. Under the new EU regs which have been incorporated then it still cannot under read and between 25mph & 70mph the speedo can over read by 10% + 6.25mph (and I have no idea how they came to that).  Speedos need a degree of flexibility in the reading to account for the changing diameter over the life of a tyre, or in the case of certain cars to cover the various wheel & tyre choices available.  I believe police calibrated speedos were only good for +/- 1mph.

The convenient catchphrase that was coined years ago by the ad men was that Speed Kills.  It doesn't; it would be nearer the truth to say Inappropriate Speed Kills.  Excess speed is not necessarily inappropriate, and inappropriate speed is not necessarily in excess of the prevailing limit, but the technology we have only measures excess rather than inappropriate speed so we are where we are; along the way someone forgot the old adage that rigid justice is the biggest injustice.


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## Smiffy (Feb 3, 2016)

Don't you just love it when the guy in front, who has been doing a steady 30mph, approaches a speed camera and slows right down to 20.
Knob.


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## Fish (Feb 3, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Don't you just love it when the guy in front, who has been doing a steady 30mph, approaches a speed camera and slows right down to 20.
Knob.
		
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Even more annoying when they brake and slow down when the camera is in the middle central reservation facing the other way but they think it's on them, knobs &#128514;&#128514;


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## Spartacus (Feb 3, 2016)

There are 2 way cameras. The front facing ones detect your speed as you approach.


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## vkurup (Feb 3, 2016)

I got done for 57 on a restricted 50 on the M25!!! Every car was blazing past me and got a friendly reminder thru the post. Was not happy. I have been driving in many countries for a number of years, but this is the first time the postman came knocking.  Option for speed awareness was only available for 55 and under. So had to suck up, learn and pay the fine.  First set of points in 20+ years of driving .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

I got 3pts and Â£60 fine for being parked (for 30seconds) with one wheel on the zig-zag at a pedestrian crossing.  At 6pm on a Sunday evening with no pedestrians in sight and hardly any traffic on the road - other than the police motorcyclist...

I complained and pleaded - he shrugged - I was guilty - I paid up and took the points.


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I got 3pts and Â£60 fine for being parked (for 30seconds) with one wheel on the zig-zag at a pedestrian crossing.  At 6pm on a Sunday evening with no pedestrians in sight and hardly any traffic on the road - other than the police motorcyclist...

I complained and pleaded - he shrugged - I was guilty - I paid up and took the points.
		
Click to expand...

i got done for this also when i was 18, dropped someone off, while people crossed the zebra crossing. still got done.

you could walk around Inverness at the moment and see cars left on crossings half parked on the pavement. watched as two police on foot just walked past a car parked like this last week.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			i got done for this also when i was 18, dropped someone off, while people crossed the zebra crossing. still got done.

you could walk around Inverness at the moment and see cars left on crossings half parked on the pavement. watched as two police on foot just walked past a car parked like this last week.
		
Click to expand...

I parked outside a Post Office - jumped out car - ran over and posted letter - jumped back in car.  But couldn't pull off immediately as a car had just pulled in to the kerb in front of me.  I waited a moment to see if if he'd drive on.  And as I waited a cycle cop pulled up beside me.   I couldn't argue with him.  However low risk what I had done that evening - it was against the law.  Booked.  

So speeding - yup - almost regardless of circumstances - against the law. Accept graciously with reluctance and move on with life.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I parked outside a Post Office - jumped out car - ran over and posted letter - jumped back in car.  But couldn't pull off immediately as a car had just pulled in to the kerb in front of me.  I waited a moment to see if if he'd drive on.  And as I waited a cycle cop pulled up beside me.   I couldn't argue with him.  However low risk what I had done that evening - it was against the law.  Booked.  

So speeding - yup - almost regardless of circumstances - against the law. Accept graciously with reluctance and move on with life.
		
Click to expand...

Seems there's lots of criminals on this forum so lets be careful.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 3, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617


When I read about things like this that's when I despair on how law is often handed out in this land...

Cannot think of one good reason why a huge fine wasn't applied and a lengthy ban...
For me, someone is clearly telling porky pies...


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 3, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617


When I read about things like this that's when I despair on how law is often handed out in this land...

Cannot think of one good reason why a huge fine wasn't applied and a lengthy ban...
For me, someone is clearly telling porky pies...
		
Click to expand...

There is good reason why the CPS are sometimes referred to as the Criminals Protection Society by both serving and retired police officers.  If the story has been accurately reported then it appears there's not a lot more that the police could do.

As for the sentence, they've apparently got off cheap with the fine (although there's no income details & the magistrates will have to follow guidelines according to the defendant's income) but it appears they've been given the maximum penalty points; the offence does not carry a ban according to the penalty table I've seen.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 3, 2016)

With regards to the accuracy of Speedo's...

About 15 years ago I was pulled over on the M25 one evening....10pm, 4 lane stretch of motorway, dry, clear night, no traffic except in lane 1....I was on the way to "rescue" my girlfriend who had broken down at Clacketts Lane services and was in lane 4 to give what little traffic there was the widest berth possible given the speed I was driving at.

When pulled over and informed what speed I was doing I was asked if I wanted to see the dash cam recorded evidence. I declined, but commented on my surprise that the recorded speed was identical to what my Speedo was saying and that I always thought that Speedo's "over read".

The Officer asked me if my car had ABS and when I confirmed that it did he said... and I can still remember his words as clear as if he said them yesterday (simply because when I went to court the prosecution totally mis-stated what he did say... attributing his words to me!!!)...

_" don't ask me why, because I'm not technically minded, but cars with ABS Speedo's seem to be a lot more accurate"._

(In court the prosecution presented this as..." When Mr.Davis was informed he was doing 107mph he remarked that these cars with ABS's Speedo's were bloody accurate weren't they?")!!!

How true what he said was I will never know... but the magistrate lapped the prosecutions misrepresentation up and banned me. (I had pleaded guilty and written to the court presenting the mitigating circumstances but given the speed I was doing it was a mandatory court appearance).

Whilst I was waiting at the court for my turn to go before the beak, I got chatting to a young couple... only in their very early twenties. They'd got married and had arrived at Heathrow to fly off on honeymoon when hubby realised he had left the passports and plane tickets at home. Rushing back to pick them up he inevitably got pulled. 

The couple missed their flight, had to delay their trip by a couple of days and pay extra to rearrange their flights. When they got back from honeymoon there was a letter on the doorstep informing the wife that she'd been made redundant. 

Pitiless magistrate proceeded to ban husband for three months.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 3, 2016)

My view is that, by and large, magistrates should be done away with forthwith.

Most are pompous and opinionated busy-body nose-poking would-be do-gooders who read the Mail and are only too happy to be apalled by what the grubby working classes have to resort to to exist.

How any justice system believes that it can be served by or rely on such a group of reactionary clueless oafs beggars belief.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2016)

When we have a thread about golf rules the vast majority of people on here huff and puff, "the rules are the rules." Golf doesn't kill, and no one in a speeding car sets out to do so, but which is the more important rule? It amazes me how many people are trying to justify doing something that can kill.


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## Captainron (Feb 3, 2016)

I don't give a monkeys if the road was clear, there were no other cars etc. The limit is the limit. Stay under the bloody limit! If you get caught then suck it up and take your punishment!


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2016)

At the end of the day, the limit is the limit. Why it's the limit is of little relevance.
It just is....
We have roads that are 30 that could easily be 40 but they're not.
Most drivers are hypocrites when it comes to speed.
The majority are quite happy to break the law......unless there's a patrol car or camera, in which case they're bang on the number
If its the right thing to do when you might get caught then its the right thing to do all the time.
There's a stretch of 30limit near me on the run up to a roundabout.
For 1/4 mile before there are 'hatched' lines on the road and nobody EVER overtakes there.
Until the approach to the roundabout where it becomes 2 lanes and they bomb past you at 45+. Follow the rules in one place but nothing another..

Many times a day I'll be doing 30 in a 30 and have a long tail of cars behind, or I'll get overtaken and that car then sits in front of me at the same speed - and that's when I'm driving, not just the kids.. Some years ago, the authorities were over the moon because 50% of drivers were now obeying the 30limit.
50%........and they were happy with that..

The Law is the Law - any Law.
Break it and face the consequences.


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## woody69 (Feb 4, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			My view is that, by and large, magistrates should be done away with forthwith.

Most are pompous and opinionated busy-body nose-poking would-be do-gooders who read the Mail and are only too happy to be apalled by what the grubby working classes have to resort to to exist.

How any justice system believes that it can be served by or rely on such a group of reactionary clueless oafs beggars belief.
		
Click to expand...

And what pray tell would you have in their place?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			There is good reason why the CPS are sometimes referred to as the Criminals Protection Society by both serving and retired police officers.  If the story has been accurately reported then it appears there's not a lot more that the police could do.

As for the sentence, they've apparently got off cheap with the fine (although there's no income details & the magistrates will have to follow guidelines according to the defendant's income) but it appears they've been given the maximum penalty points; the offence does not carry a ban according to the penalty table I've seen.
		
Click to expand...

It was, by forum standards, only a minor rant on my part...
I appreciate police and magistrates have done all they can...
But, as a 'failed' cyclist it frustrates the hell out of me... 
Should I ever take to the roads again, on two wheels, think I'd be investing in one of those helmet cams...


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 4, 2016)

woody69 said:



			And what pray tell would you have in their place?
		
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People with a qualification in Law.


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## woody69 (Feb 4, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			People with a qualification in Law.
		
Click to expand...

So judges? You'd get rid of the lay magistrates and replace them with judges to over see the less serious cases magistrates currently review, such as minor theft, criminal damage, assaults, public disorder and motoring offences.

I suspect the only reason for magistrates is they are lower cost.


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## JohnnyDee (Feb 4, 2016)

woody69 said:



			So judges? You'd get rid of the lay magistrates and replace them with judges to over see the less serious cases magistrates currently review, such as minor theft, criminal damage, assaults, public disorder and motoring offences.

I suspect the only reason for magistrates is they are lower cost.
		
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Perhaps fully bewigged and gowned-up judges might be over-egging it - but maybe ex/retired barristers and solicitors etc. whose views may be based on knowledge of the 'Law', and heaven forbid, be tempered with a modicum of compassion and open-mindedness.

In fairness to magistrates I believe they are reimbursed expenses only and not paid as such.

My view comes about really as I have known a few over the years (not professionally ) and hearing them expressing themselves warmly on all manner of issues during this time does not instil within me any confidence that their views are impartial or indeed well-balanced.


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## Robster59 (Feb 4, 2016)

Imurg said:



			At the end of the day, the limit is the limit. Why it's the limit is of little relevance.
It just is....
We have roads that are 30 that could easily be 40 but they're not.
Most drivers are hypocrites when it comes to speed.
The majority are quite happy to break the law......unless there's a patrol car or camera, in which case they're bang on the number
If its the right thing to do when you might get caught then its the right thing to do all the time.
There's a stretch of 30limit near me on the run up to a roundabout.
For 1/4 mile before there are 'hatched' lines on the road and nobody EVER overtakes there.
Until the approach to the roundabout where it becomes 2 lanes and they bomb past you at 45+. Follow the rules in one place but nothing another..

Many times a day I'll be doing 30 in a 30 and have a long tail of cars behind, or I'll get overtaken and that car then sits in front of me at the same speed - and that's when I'm driving, not just the kids.. Some years ago, the authorities were over the moon because 50% of drivers were now obeying the 30limit.
50%........and they were happy with that..

The Law is the Law - any Law.
Break it and face the consequences.
		
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This!
I've broken the speed limit in the past and got caught.  Did I complain?  No, because I knew the limit and broke it, or in one case didn't notice the limit had gone down to 30mph. 
Nobodies fault but my own.


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2016)

Wow, so many admitted criminals.

As a balance to all that 'the law is the law' stuff, people have the right to expect that the design and application of the law is fair. This means that the determination of speed limits is genuinely based on safety and not just to catch people to boost income. And speed limits shouldn't be reduced just to placate residents who don't like the noise of cars. The police should want drivers watching the road rather than carefully scrutinising their speed and road signs all the time. 

Slow driving can also cause harm, when drivers cause massive tailbacks and then when released, even if nobody breaks the limit, the risk of accidents is increased.


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## Spear-Chucker (Feb 4, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Wow, so many admitted criminals.

As a balance to all that 'the law is the law' stuff, people have the right to expect that the design and application of the law is fair. This means that the determination of speed limits is genuinely based on safety and not just to catch people to boost income. And speed limits shouldn't be reduced just to placate residents who don't like the noise of cars. The police should want drivers watching the road rather than carefully scrutinising their speed and road signs all the time. 

*Slow driving can also cause harm, when drivers cause massive tailbacks and then when released, even if nobody breaks the limit, the risk of accidents is increased*.
		
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Rather agree, Ethan. On most counts actually. To pick up on one point, I find slow driving and people refusing to work up to the speed limit extremely frustrating and dangerous given the daily occurrence of watching the terminally impatient risking lives trying to get past them. Not helped when the local council puts up signs encouraging people to drive slower and not attempt the speed limit!

Sadly the line between limits to save lives and generate income have become blurred beyond repair and the relentless campaign against the humble motorist continues as we're too soft (read defenseless, I suppose) a target. Improvements in technology and understanding should mean we could take a much more informed view against legislation introduced 40+ years ago but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 4, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617


When I read about things like this that's when I despair on how law is often handed out in this land...

Cannot think of one good reason why a huge fine wasn't applied and a lengthy ban...
For me, someone is clearly telling porky pies...
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			There is good reason why the CPS are sometimes referred to as the Criminals Protection Society by both serving and retired police officers.  If the story has been accurately reported then it appears there's not a lot more that the police could do.

As for the sentence, they've apparently got off cheap with the fine (although there's no income details & the magistrates will have to follow guidelines according to the defendant's income) but it appears they've been given the maximum penalty points; the offence does not carry a ban according to the penalty table I've seen.
		
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MegaSteve said:



			It was, by forum standards, only a minor rant on my part...
I appreciate police and magistrates have done all they can...
But, as a 'failed' cyclist it frustrates the hell out of me... 
Should I ever take to the roads again, on two wheels, think I'd be investing in one of those helmet cams...
		
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I don't actually disagree in principle with a lot of what you posted first time round but as you'd effectively asked why a huge fine & a ban hadn't been handed out I thought I'd try and be helpful & explain it a bit as to why it might have ended up as it did, having worked in/with that system for a while.  And it frustrated the hell out of me too.

It wasn't, by forum standards, anything like an attack on you; it merely pointed out what could and couldn't be done.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 4, 2016)

There are, or were, two sorts of magistrates; stipendiary magistrates, who were legally qualified and paid a salary at sat alone, and lay magistrates who sat in threes and did it out of the goodness of their hearts and with a lot of help from the usually long suffering clerk of the court.  I say "were" because apparently stipendiary magistrates have now been replaced by district judges



woody69 said:



			So judges? You'd get rid of the lay magistrates and replace them with judges to over see the less serious cases magistrates currently review, such as minor theft, criminal damage, assaults, public disorder and motoring offences.

I suspect the only reason for magistrates is they are lower cost.
		
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Ever heard the old expression "you get what you pay for"; never was this more true.  And yes, I would have them replaced; stipes were generally more efficient, had a far better understanding, saw through the smokescreens and came to more logical conclusions than lay magistrates.



JohnnyDee said:



			Perhaps fully bewigged and gowned-up judges might be over-egging it - but maybe ex/retired barristers and solicitors etc. whose views may be based on knowledge of the 'Law', and heaven forbid, be tempered with a modicum of compassion and open-mindedness.

In fairness to magistrates I believe they are reimbursed expenses only and not paid as such.

My view comes about really as I have known a few over the years (not professionally ) and hearing them expressing themselves warmly on all manner of issues during this time does not instil within me any confidence that their views are impartial or indeed well-balanced.
		
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Having stood in front of more than a few professionally, I find some truth to that last paragraph where lay magistrates are concerned, which generally wasn't the case with the stipes.


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