# The flying wedge....



## JustOne (Jan 12, 2013)

Might as well post these so I don't forget them....

[video=youtube;F9c57NhZFl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9c57NhZFl8[/video]

...not a bad strike for a half swing huh?


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2013)

..and a bit more detail in this one showing the right wrist remains passive:

[video=youtube;Tq-wcJtLTQw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq-wcJtLTQw[/video]


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## bobmac (Jan 12, 2013)

Is this position below just a drill with a half swing and a wedge or should it be the same with the full swing and longer clubs?


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2013)

What's *your* opinion Bob?

A composite of the first one's back-swing/impact and the second's follow through wouldn't be all that far off my full swing!  Not quite as much lower body/leg drive as in 2, but that may be coming.


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## bobmac (Jan 12, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			What's *your* opinion Bob?
		
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This is the first time ANYONE has actually asked for my opinion on the S&T swing.
In the passed, I have never said it was wrong, I just wouldn't teach it.
Do I like this position?
No.
To me, there's far too much weight on the outside of the left foot and the club should be allowed to swing through naturally and turn over to the inside.
To try and hold the angle in the right wrist that far into the follow through in my opinion is wrong and creates problems getting the clubface square at impact, especially with the longer clubs.
But if it's just a drill to improve the downward angle of attack (which is one of the 5 laws taught by the PGA) then I dont mind it.


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2013)

Thanks for that Bob.

My sound is playing up, so I may have missed something, but I hadn't particularly associated the drill with S&T - just flying wedge as it's titled. First vid certainly doesn't look very S&T-ish.

Not to get into a(nother) debate on it, but as S&T and Weight Shift swings are so different, it seems only natural (to me at least) that a teacher of one method (as opposed to the 'styles' of one-plane-swing and two-plane-swing) would see 'faults' in the positions deemed 'correct' of another method. One of S&T's 'benefits' appears to be quality/consistency of impact, so perhaps a good drill all round. In the different 'styles', it seems that the same real fault often needs a different correction, depending on which style it is.

There does seem to be a lot of techno jargon about various bits of the swing - flying wedges being more associated to a mate of mine's helicopter reaction after a poor chip! While I'm a natural techie fan, there seems nothing that I read that solves my particular quirks as good as someone who knows my swing and/or is trained to analyse one.


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## bobmac (Jan 12, 2013)

I dont think they mention S&T in the videos but whatever they call it, I wouldnt teach it 
Philippe Bonfanti (2nd vid) is certainly a authorized S&T teacher


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## virtuocity (Jan 12, 2013)

The flying wedge has transformed my short game.


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## bladeplayer (Jan 12, 2013)

Interested if a bit confused now , my first lesson the other nite the guy showed me we would be working on this later , hands ahead of the ball weight more on the left side .. (disclaimer ,im not am expert of any of this)


Guy in the first video explaining this flying wedge says it will go LOWER but should go the same distance 
guy at end of 2nd video tells us "it will be conducive to hitting it HIGH & far " 

Can you see where people like myself who dont understan swing or swing mechanics can get confused watching videos ?

In the first vid , Would you be using the follow through position to determine the distance the ball goes ?


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Can you see where people like myself who dont understan swing or swing mechanics can get confused watching videos ?
		
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Of course. It's pretty normal. To be expected in fact 

The ball position and just how much weight and forward shaft lean you get with the wedge (clubshaft angle) will determine the flight, so they are both right. What is important is the drill itself. Personally I think they both follow thru too much considering it's just a drill.... but those were the best ones I could find. Beggars can't be choosers


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			In the first vid , Would you be using the follow through position to determine the distance the ball goes ?
		
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Morphing away from the thread focus...but I'd say 'It depends!'. 

Dave Pelz claims to have observed some of the guns practising, predicted the distances and created a whole 4 club 12 swing style of pitching where it's the back-swing (his 7:30, 9 and 10:30 clockface swings) that determines the distance with the follow through being to the same place every time. Others have the equal distance approach (9 to 3, 8 to 4, 10 to 2). Personal preference imo; neither being right/wrong/better than the other.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2013)

I believe the 'Flying Wedge' term was first used by Homer Kelly in TGM.

This video explains the action nicely:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3C1__L5usM


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## stevelev (Jan 12, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Is this position below just a drill with a half swing and a wedge or should it be the same with the full swing and longer clubs?







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I might be completely wrong here, but with a full extension on the follow through would the right wrist not straighten out slightly. I find this very miss leading especially as the finish is sawn off. With a full swing I would find it nigh on impossible to keep flex in the right wrist, especially as the left collapses on follow through.???? OPINIONS

So is this a bad follow through???


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2013)

stevelev said:



			So is this a bad follow through???

View attachment 4131

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Good question, the answer is.... it's complicated.

The flying wedge drill is an impact drill, it takes you through impact and into the follow through. What happens half way up the follow through is either totally up to you OR it's going to be whatever your body wants to do. If your body doesn't need to flip or rotate/roll the club then it won't bother, likewise if you choose not to then you won't bother. The club will generally at some stage out race your shoulders, when that happens is technically controllable, but it will generally happen once your shoulders begin to slow or have stopped rotating.

I think to a degree the flying wedge drill shows that the clubhead doesn't necessarily out race the hands. If you don't have much forward lean at impact then it likely will a bit sooner on the upswing. This isn't a problem, you just wouldn't hold quite so much angle in the wedge into impact.

If we take your picture and ask is it a bad one we could use a different McIlroy picture and ask if it's a good one? So using McIlroy as an example (and you can decide here) has the clubhead in this swing gone past his hands? Is the clubface closed or rolling?.... OR if you look at the relative relationship of his shoulders, arms and the club is he still basically in his ADDRESS position?







If we wind it back a few frames has he flipped the club? or is the angle (wedge) between right arm and clubshaft maintained?


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## stevelev (Jan 12, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Good question, the answer is.... it's complicated.

The flying wedge drill is an impact drill, it takes you through impact and into the follow through. What happens half way up the follow through is either totally up to you OR it's going to be whatever your body wants to do. If your body doesn't need to flip or rotate/roll the club then it won't bother, likewise if you choose not to then you won't bother. The club will generally at some stage out race your shoulders, when that happens is technically controllable, but it will generally happen once your shoulders begin to slow or have stopped rotating.

I think to a degree the flying wedge drill shows that the clubhead doesn't necessarily out race the hands. If you don't have much forward lean at impact then it likely will a bit sooner on the upswing. This isn't a problem, you just wouldn't hold quite so much angle in the wedge into impact.

If we take your picture and ask is it a bad one we could use a different McIlroy picture and ask if it's a good one? So using McIlroy as an example (and you can decide here) has the clubhead in this swing gone past his hands? Is the clubface closed or rolling?.... OR if you look at the relative relationship of his shoulders, arms and the club is he still basically in his ADDRESS position?







If we wind it back a few frames has he flipped the club? or is the angle (wedge) between right arm and clubshaft maintained? 






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But in both pictures the club is not yet parallel to the ground. Can you show me a picture of him with the club parallel with the same amount of flext in the right wrist??? I just want to get this right in my head as I tihnk that the drill is promoting holding off the follow through or may lead to fades.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2013)

stevelev said:



			But in both pictures the club is not yet parallel to the ground. Can you show me a picture of him with the club parallel with the same amount of flext in the right wrist??? I just want to get this right in my head as I tihnk that the drill is promoting holding off the follow through or may lead to fades.
		
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It matters nothing what the wrist is like at that position as the ball is long gone.   JO explained this.


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2013)

Here's a recent video by mark crossfield that almost makes it look like you shouldn't hold onto the wedge.... and there's talk of hands passing the body, getting the club out in front, flipping the club over the right shoulder, hips slowing down etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQK2D_lVEEY

So now there's one set of pros saying do a flying wedge and someone else trying to give a totally different feel altogether... the thing is *someone* somewhere probably needs that feeling of flipping, rolling etc if they happen to hold onto the club too much, can't extend properly or subsequently chicken wing their arms, that doesn't mean that we should all suddenly slow down our hips and flip the club. If you have trouble extending your arms to a correct extension (release) then you're going to need a different feel... I _personally_ think that 'feel' you might need is the flying wedge drill, but that's besides the point 

Here's another video by him about the release.... where he's now saying the club doesn't flip, roll or turn over...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JalAVnzZBoY


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2013)

stevelev said:



			But in both pictures the club is not yet parallel to the ground. Can you show me a picture of him with the club parallel with the same amount of flext in the right wrist??? I just want to get this right in my head as I tihnk that the drill is promoting holding off the follow through or may lead to fades.
		
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I'd love to but it's like looking for unicorn poo to get a swing that's filmed backwards.... 
(find some and send me the links by all means)

Here's mark cossfields from that video...







The toe hasn't rolled over, it's still vertical (even though he has let the shaft pass his hands slightly). If he feels from this stage that he want to roll the club, rehinge the club, let it pass his hands more or even let go of the club completely it's of no consequence however the downswing (and the position we get into with our shoulders, arms and wrists) will usually dictate what is going to happen into the follow thru, which is why impact (and the flying wedge drill) is so important.


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2013)

As I didn't get a reply, I'll assume it's a full swing.




			So now there's one set of pros saying do a flying wedge and someone else trying to give a totally different feel altogether...
		
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You are suggesting that teaching pros are split between those who would teach that position and those who dont.
When in actual fact it's probably less than 10 who do and 4,990 who dont (in Britain).

So you can either follow the advice from Philippe Bondanti and keep the angle in the right wrist......







 or you can copy the guys below who have a straight line from their right arm through to the club shaft and the angle in the LEFT wrist

Your choice folks.



















Now I'm not saying it's wrong to have a good angle of attack with your short clubs, far from it, but I dont agree that golfers should hold the angle in the right wrist as long as is being suggested above.

Just my opinion


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## Smiffy (Jan 13, 2013)

I do it my own way. And I'm a great wedge player


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2013)

Smiffy said:



			I do it my own way. And I'm a great wedge player
		
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Of course you are Smiffy


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## JustOne (Jan 13, 2013)

bobmac said:



			So you can either follow the advice from Philippe Bondanti and keep the angle in the right wrist......







 or you can copy the guys below who have a straight line from their right arm through to the club shaft and the angle in the LEFT wrist

Your choice folks.
		
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Your choice folks???? 


Sorry Bob but you're showing your ignorance.... or you just don't have the ability to grasp motion in a 3D context.

Here's Web Simpson... does he fit into your model?







How about now.... 3 frames earlier?







Maybe I'm a bit blind (I must be) because that position looks EXACTLY THE SAME as the one you posted at the top of this post that you were 'attempting' to take the mickey out of 

From what I'm aware of people like Lynn blake, Homer Kelly, Sean Foley, Plummer/Bennett advocate the flying wedge (I can find more instructors if you like) these guys *teach tour pros* have books and DVD's.... they don't scrub it around their local range teaching hackers for 20 quid.


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2013)

Try this for size.
Do you still say this is right ?










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## percy_layer (Jan 13, 2013)

I'd be interested in what kind of clubhead speeds would be needed to be able to play effectively with such angles through impact. 

What is the effective loft of the clubhead when it strikes the ball in those photos?

With the clubhead speed of average club golfers, what is the longest club that can be used?


I must add that I do believe that the flying wedge drill is effective when used with the right pupil at the right time but is usually used with at least one other drill to lessen the chances of a 'holding off' type strike and a loss of power.



As Bobs photo above shows clearly, too much angle will result in a very low, powerless strike........


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Try this for size.
Do you still say this is right ?
		
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And they say the art of destructive criticism is dead.


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## Foxholer (Jan 13, 2013)

I hope it's realised that's there's actually 2 'flying wedges' involved in the down-swing.

I'm more inclined to 'concentrate' on the left arm one and let the right arm one happen naturally, with quality/power of the strike being the measure of success of any change - dodgy other swing mechanics notwithstanding!


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			And they say the art of destructive criticism is dead.
		
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Do you think that golfers should try and copy that position?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Do you think that golfers should try and copy that position?
		
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The cupped right wrist into impact.  Absolutely.


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			The cupped right wrist into impact.  Absolutely.
		
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Do you think that golfers should try and copy this position?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Do you think that golfers should try and copy this position?
		
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Why are you going on about that follow through position?     I have explained and James has said a number of times now that the important position is through the impact zone.  After that it is nice to see a nice fluid finish but it is not that important as long as momentum was sufficient in the zone area.


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## DCB (Jan 13, 2013)

Before this degenerates into the usual swing post ending can I ask a question relating to the videos please.

If the right wrist is held in a cupped position, how is the clubhead released through impact and how is the follow through completed properly?

I'll say now my swing thoughts are more traditional so am trying to understand where the arms and club go after impact.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2013)

DCB said:



			Before this degenerates into the usual swing post ending can I ask a question relating to the videos please.

If the right wrist is held in a cupped position, how is the clubhead released through impact and how is the follow through completed properly?

I'll say now my swing thoughts are more traditional so am trying to understand where the arms and club go after impact.
		
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The release IMO is much misunderstood.  It should not be a turning over or flipping of the wrists but an 'up and down' hinging action.  If you address an iron then lift it straight up with your wrists only then bang it back down into the grass, this is the release.

The clubface and wrists in a good swing stay square to the swing path.   I hope this helps to explain.


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I have explained and James has said a number of times now that the important position is through the impact zone.
		
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Obviously.
That is why the angle of attack is one of the 5 laws taught by the PGA to all pros during their training. And that is why I posted this clip ages ago to encourage people to learn the downward hit 

[video=youtube;bJ2oBmW37eY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ2oBmW37eY&list=PL7Uf2W3sfvqYBJ3OUldKvQT7ZWYEmPOyW[/video]

 The only differende is the PGA don't give it a fancy name.

My concerns are how Philippe stresses the importance of not letting the swing go through to a natural finish which might give any new golfers problems in the future.


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2013)

The release IMO is much misunderstood
		
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The release is something most golfers shouldn't do.
As most golfers swing out to in through impact, if they returned the club back square to that swing path, the ball would head straight left, in most cases never to be seen again.
So they  learn to hold the club open with a chicken wing to stop the club hitting it left.
Which is why if someone wants to cure a slice, they have to change their swingpath AND clubface.
To get them out of the habit of holding the face open, some teachers may use the phrase 'roll your wrists' to help them get the feeling of getting the club face square. It's a bit like telling someone the 'compress the ball into the ground' it's just a thought.
Now if a golfer works hard at their swing path and tries to follow the positions in the video of the follow through, as I said earlier, it could create problems to someone who already has difficulties squaring the clubface up at impact.
Just my (ignorant) opinion


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Just my (ignorant) opinion
		
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Was there any need to say that.  Your words Bob not mine.

I have explained that the release is a downward hinge of the wrists, do you disagree with this?  How can you not do it?

I am aware that people that swing out to in with a clubface square to path will pull, as in to outers will push.    To me it's best to start off explaining the correct swing and how to achieve that, rather than putting sticking plasters on a poor one.   When we look at those instructional videos we are being shown the best way to play golf.    If I had a student who cut across the ball I would not tell him to flip his wrists, I would show him how to swing from the inside.


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## JustOne (Jan 13, 2013)

The release is nothing to do with the club, it's an extension of the arms... you could easily do a nice full release on a club that was 90 closed or 90 open or hold the shiny end and swing the grip. The club head itself never releases, there's no such thing, it's what the arms are doing. The flying wedge teaches that the hands lead the shaft and the arms release fully into a full extension, without flipping or rolling the club. The rotation of the shoulders pulls the club up and to the left, combined with the folding of the left elbow we swing through to a finish.




			I'd be interested in what kind of clubhead speeds would be needed to be able to play effectively with such angles through impact. 

What is the effective loft of the clubhead when it strikes the ball in those photos?

With the clubhead speed of average club golfers, what is the longest club that can be used?
		
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Club head speed? Not important as correct impact will optimise whatever speed you have

Loft? the clubface is less lofted by the shaft lean, but the face would be aimed more to the right (open) so your dynamic loft (the actual loft on the club) wouldn't necessarily be much lower, if at all. The angle of attack (descent) would have an impact on whether the ball flies high or low, ie; secondary axis tilt.

Longest club? Any. The ball position changes and therefore so does the angle of the wedge at impact. The shaft gets more upright the higher the left shoulder goes up. What is more important is that the head stays behind the ball to shallow the descent (secondary axis tilt) but that's the same for ALL swings.


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## bobmac (Jan 14, 2013)

Your words Bob not mine.
		
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Not my words.
Did you read the rest of this thread?




			I have explained that the release is a downward hinge of the wrists, do you disagree with this?
		
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Of course not.

What I am saying (again) is the angle in the right wrist shouldn't be held that long passed impact. Just my opinion.




			To me it's best to start off explaining the correct swing and how to achieve that
		
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That's exactly what I do which is why I take a high speed camera and a laptop so I can not only show what the pupil is doing but also work out with the pupil a way forward.




			If I had a student who cut across the ball I would not tell him to flip his wrists,
		
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Neither would I. 

Anyway, I watched the videos, I didn't agree with some of what I saw and I gave my opinion in what I believed to be a civil and constructive manner, as I believe I'm entitled to do.
I shall say no more.


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## Smiffy (Jan 14, 2013)

bobmac said:



			I shall say no more.
		
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## Region3 (Jan 14, 2013)

Surely this is just a drill to learn the correct feeling of hands ahead of the ball at impact. Do people really have full swings like this other than for a punch shot?

In a lesson once I was told to feel like my weight stayed on my back foot through impact. It was a drill to give a feeling, not an instruction to strive for.


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