# Indyref2



## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 13, 2016)

Sturgeon is adamant that she will push for a 2nd referendum vote in Scotland so if it happens, what do you think the result will be?


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 13, 2016)

sturgeon resigning cos it will be the same result'


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## One Planer (Oct 13, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Sturgeon is adamant that she will push for a 2nd referendum vote in Scotland so if it happens, what do you think the result will be?
		
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Haven't they not long had one :mmm:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 13, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Haven't they not long had one :mmm:
		
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Yep in 2014 but she didn't get the result she wanted so pushing for another  :mmm:


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## NWJocko (Oct 13, 2016)

Sadly, I think it's a nailed on vote for Independence


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## patricks148 (Oct 13, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Haven't they not long had one :mmm:
		
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Yes we did, but the main scaremongering was that if Scotland went Indy it couldn't still be part of the EU if it broke from the UK. Low and behold... we are now out the EU anyway. 

I think it will go the other way next time, but not sure how we pay for it with the current situation.


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

"Out damned spot! Out I say." And then there's something about "murky" but its 52 years since I did Macbeth.



Edit!! Its obviously a long time since I did maths too. Its 42 years...


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## Khamelion (Oct 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			"Out damned spot! Out I say." And then there's something about "murky" but its 52 years since I did Macbeth.



Edit!! Its obviously a long time since I did maths too. Its 42 years...
		
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That's what getting old does to you


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

Note that she's not saying she'll trigger a referendum - she's initiating drafting of a Bill for a referendum and what happens over the next two years, particularly in respect of UK engagement with the single market, will determine whether or not she considers triggering a request for a referendum.

I suspect that it is no coincidence that in the post today we got a return post-paid SNP survey seeking our attitude in respect of independence.  What's important - what's not.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 13, 2016)

Are we voting on how we think a vote would go or how we want it to? 

Unlikely to be the same answer for me, I fear.


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are we voting on how we think a vote would go or how we want it to? 

Unlikely to be the same answer for me, I fear.
		
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I've gone for how I think it might go, with a bit of culture thrown in.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are we voting on how we think a vote would go or how we want it to? 

Unlikely to be the same answer for me, I fear.
		
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How you THINK it will go   :thup:


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 13, 2016)

drive4show said:



			How you THINK it will go   :thup:
		
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Too close to call so I don't know. But it'll be even nastier than the last one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are we voting on how we think a vote would go or how we want it to? 

Unlikely to be the same answer for me, I fear.
		
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I suspect an awful lot of people south of the border will have this view. There is only so long you can listen to someone moaning and playing the blame game without feeling you have had enough. Time to move on.


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect an awful lot of people south of the border will have this view. There is only so long you can listen to someone moaning and playing the blame game without feeling you have had enough. Time to move on.
		
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Its amazing how many people I know south of the border are saying let the whinging.... go. Decent Unionists are getting tarred with the same brush. Equally, there's a huge lump of people who don't care.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 13, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect an awful lot of people south of the border will have this view. There is only so long you can listen to someone moaning and playing the blame game without feeling you have had enough. Time to move on.
		
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Just a very vocal minority. Try to ignore them.


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## backwoodsman (Oct 13, 2016)

Because it was so close last time, l think Brexit will be enough to swing it the other way if there is a "next time". But what do l know? I was convinced we'd vote to stay in Europe.


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 13, 2016)

I think they might. Can't see many who voted Yes last time changing their mind based on what they've seen since. It then takes around 1 in 10 of the No supporters to switch and it's game on.....that's still quite a big swing though so not sure they'll actually go for it tbh.

One thing's for sure, given the Brexit vote there'll be no Westminster machine supporting the "better together" tagline


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are we voting on how we think a vote would go or how we want it to? 

Unlikely to be the same answer for me, I fear.
		
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I don't know, if the question has a timescale of 'ever' - or in the next 15yrs - I'd say Yes.  If in the next 2 yrs I'd say No,


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## Trojan615 (Oct 13, 2016)

Will I need a passport to play St. Andrews ?

Will we have border police on Hadrians wall ?

Can Donald trump be Scottish president ?


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2016)

Trojan615 said:



			Will I need a passport to play St. Andrews ?

Will we have border police on Hadrians wall ?

Can Donald trump be Scottish president ?
		
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We should do the opposite to what we do over the bridge into Wales, we should have free entry into Scotland as we'll be spending loads and a small toll of less than Â£5 to get out, but for Scottish Nationals it should be thousands to get out and come sarf but those already here it's free to get them back in


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

Trojan615 said:



			Will I need a passport to play St. Andrews ?

Will we have border police on Hadrians wall ?

Can Donald trump be Scottish president ?
		
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No, mibbe, on yer bike


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 13, 2016)

Let's have new elections just for all the seats the SNP won at the last election.   I mean, I don't like the result they gave so perhaps we can run it again to see what happens this time.

She is an utter embarrassment to politics (which takes some doing).  The hell with democracy - it's my ball and I'm in charge of who plays with it.   Err no love, you're not.


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Let's have new elections just for all the seats the SNP won at the last election.   I mean, I don't like the result they gave so perhaps we can run it again to see what happens this time.

She is an utter embarrassment to politics (which takes some doing).  The hell with democracy - it's my ball and I'm in charge of who plays with it.   Err no love, you're not.
		
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Cracking post!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 13, 2016)

I've changed my mind. If there is indyref2 the nats will win it. Not because the appetite for independence is there at the moment but because they know not to call one until they're sure they will win.

I've just seen Nicola sturgeons conference speech and it was brilliant. She totally nailed the tories and brexit and even spun how Scotland in the U.K. and also Europe might look and, failing that, how we'd be better off independent. I don't believe a word of it but it sounded good. If they decide to go for indyref2 she'll win it pretty comfortably I think.


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## Val (Oct 13, 2016)

I'm not convinced yet, I do in my heart of hearts think another vote would be a yes for independence but a colleague today said something that made me think. He voted for independence as he would like an independent Scotland with eu membership and the Â£ but this time independence and eu membership will result in the Euro and a propping up of other countries financial mistakes, that is not for him, I also think a switch to the euro may be enough for many to say NO also


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 13, 2016)

I know its a serious issue but it has a sense of rock, scissors, paper, best of three wins


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Cracking post!
		
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@PS's post was a load of tosh actually - it is just what the SNP want to hear coming from south of the border.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've changed my mind. If there is indyref2 the nats will win it. Not because the appetite for independence is there at the moment but because they know not to call one until they're sure they will win.

I've just seen Nicola sturgeons conference speech and it was brilliant. She totally nailed the tories and brexit and even spun how Scotland in the U.K. and also Europe might look and, failing that, how we'd be better off independent. I don't believe a word of it but it sounded good. If they decide to go for indyref2 she'll win it pretty comfortably I think.
		
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Exactly.  The Bill being drafted will be on the shelf until the polls say consistently that a good majority want a referendum.  Of course  lots of NOers might just say they want one soon to get the majority NicolaS wants - then vote No.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2016)

Val said:



			I'm not convinced yet, I do in my heart of hearts think another vote would be a yes for independence but a colleague today said something that made me think. He voted for independence as he would like an independent Scotland with eu membership and the Â£ but this time independence and eu membership will result in the Euro and a propping up of other countries financial mistakes, that is not for him, I also think a switch to the euro may be enough for many to say NO also
		
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But what of the financial cost to Scotland if a yes vote came about, are the people up there being told that, or is it all a bit emotive? 

By all accounts Scotland ran up a Â£15bn deficit twice that of the UK which meant had the yes vote gone through last time, taxes on Whiskey, Homes, Petrol etc would have been a given and the forecasts are that it will be 3 times that of the UK! Apparently the no vote kept your deficit at Â£1400 per head, but the forecasters state if it had been yes you would be at Â£2,850 per head, Â£2k more than the UK!

And what of the cost to change your whole monetary system, who's paying for that? and I thought Brussels said you couldn't join them if you voted for independence? 

She's a good speaker there's no denying that, but I think she'll bring your country to its knees for the sakes of her own pride and mission and she won't be around to pick up the pieces, she'll probably bugger off somewhere sunny then!


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

9



Fish said:



			But what of the financial cost to Scotland if a yes vote came about, are the people up there being told that, or is it all a bit emotive? 

By all accounts Scotland ran up a Â£15bn deficit twice that of the UK which meant had the yes vote gone through last time, taxes on Whiskey, Homes, Petrol etc would have been a given and the forecasts are that it will be 3 times that of the UK! Apparently the no vote kept your deficit at Â£1400 per head, but the forecasters state if it had been yes you would be at Â£2,850 per head, Â£2k more than the UK!

And what of the cost to change your whole monetary system, who's paying for that? and I thought Brussels said you couldn't join them if you voted for independence? 

She's a good speaker there's no denying that, but I think she'll bring your country to its knees for the sakes of her own pride and mission and she won't be around to pick up the pieces, she'll probably bugger off somewhere sunny then!
		
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Perhaps you need to look into things a bit more deeply.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 13, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			9

Perhaps you need to look into things a bit more deeply.
		
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Are you saying that the figures in the GERS report and from the Tax Payers Alliance are incorrect?


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you saying that the figures in the GERS report and from the Tax Payers Alliance are incorrect?
		
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GERS are estimated figures based on Scotland IN the UK, with the constraints that entails,not independent of it.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 13, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			GERS are estimated figures based on Scotland IN the UK, with the constraints that entails,not independent of it.
		
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What constraints are they then? Being constrained by the UK government bailing Scotland out when they overspend by Â£15 billion for the year?


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			GERS are estimated figures based on Scotland IN the UK, with the constraints that entails,not independent of it.
		
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Do you actually know what the GERS report is and who produces it?

It has absolutely nothing to do with in or out. It's a financial statement just like you receive from your bank.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What constraints are they then? Being constrained by the UK government bailing Scotland out when they overspend by Â£15 billion for the year?
		
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You just keep believing that Scotland is too poor my friend.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 13, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			You just keep believing that Scotland is too poor my friend.
		
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Maybe provide something to counter the argument ? 

Why are Scotland struggling financially to the point they required further billions to help them out ? Why did Scotland run up such a big deficit ?


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe provide something to counter the argument ? 

Why are Scotland struggling financially to the point they required further billions to help them out ? Why did Scotland run up such a big deficit ?
		
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Why do you think it only comes down to money?

It's more about aesthetics as far as I'm concerned. The UK isn't a particularly pleasant or appealing prospect.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2016)

It's not Sturgeon's or the Scottish Parliament's right to hold an election.  May has already indicated that Scotland had their referendum and it was a decision for a generation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 13, 2016)

The bit that is difficult for me to understand is......... if Scotland is such a drain on the UK finances why is virtually everyone in the rUK so desperate to keep us.
Could it be that the financial figures produced by Westminster are not what they appear to be. Surely not.

The joke up here is that in Indyref2 David Davis will scaremonger us by saying that we will have to remain with the Â£ as our currency.:lol:

As Chippa says, it is not about the money. 
Many Scots would be happy to pay a bit more to the state to have a more equal society. Tories are becoming even more Toxic.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not Sturgeon's or the Scottish Parliament's right to hold an election.  May has already indicated that Scotland had their referendum and it was a decision for a generation.
		
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That'll end well.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			That'll end well.
		
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It ended the way it ended.  You know the drill, you let the people have a referendum, they decide and the Government accept the decision.     Is there some other way?


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It ended the way it ended.  You know the drill, you let the people have a referendum, they decide and the Government accept the decision.     Is there some other way?
		
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We'll just wait and see.


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## Val (Oct 13, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			That'll end well.
		
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It will end the way the U.K. Government see fit. Like it or not they have the controlling say.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The bit that is difficult for me to understand is......... if Scotland is such a drain on the UK finances why is virtually everyone in the rUK so desperate to keep us.
Could it be that the financial figures produced by Westminster are not what they appear to be. Surely not.

The joke up here is that in Indyref2 David Davis will scaremonger us by saying that we will have to remain with the Â£ as our currency.:lol:

As Chippa says, it is not about the money. 
Many Scots would be happy to pay a bit more to the state to have a more equal society. Tories are becoming even more Toxic.
		
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What? 

Basic rate Income Tax of 30%. 

As you are fond of saying; Aye right!

And unable to fulfil the EU's economic tests for membership.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

Val said:



			It will end the way the U.K. Government see fit. Like it or not they have the controlling say.
		
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And there, in a nutshell, is the problem.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			And here, in a nutshell, is the problem.
		
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Fixed that for you!


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## chippa1909 (Oct 13, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Fixed that for you!
		
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Ah! We're in the editing other peoples posts stage.
Does that make you feel powerful?
Like, I bet you wish you could do that in real life.


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## Val (Oct 14, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			And there, in a nutshell, is the problem.
		
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There in a nutshell is democracy you mean


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## chippa1909 (Oct 14, 2016)

Val said:



			There in a nutshell is democracy you mean
		
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Rule Britannia..


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The bit that is difficult for me to understand is......... if Scotland is such a drain on the UK finances why is virtually everyone in the rUK so desperate to keep us.
Could it be that the financial figures produced by Westminster are not what they appear to be. Surely not.

The joke up here is that in Indyref2 David Davis will scaremonger us by saying that we will have to remain with the Â£ as our currency.:lol:

As Chippa says, it is not about the money. 
Many Scots would be happy to pay a bit more to the state to have a more equal society. Tories are becoming even more Toxic.
		
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Chippa posted 3 consecutive posts about the money but then changed tack when he was incapable of supporting his argument. Aye right.

And I agree with you, ouch, it shouldn't be about money. It should be about self determination. Unfortunately, if it goes the way of the last Indyref it will come down to money and fear. Aye right.


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## USER1999 (Oct 14, 2016)

It amuses me that the Indy ref should be about self determination, and not about money, but when the same is said of Brexit, all we get from the antis is money arguments.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 14, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The bit that is difficult for me to understand is......... if Scotland is such a drain on the UK finances why is virtually everyone in the rUK so desperate to keep us.
		
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The bit that is difficult for me to understand is.......... why you think "virtually everyone" wants Scotland to stay. Aside from the politicians that don't want their legacy to be that they broke up the UK the strongest feelings I've come across with regard to Scottish independence is probably apathy. 

Yes there are some that would like to see Scotland stay and equally some that want Scotland to leave. But the vast majority just don't care either way.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 14, 2016)

I'm with Colchester. Believing virtually everyone wants Scotland to stay is hugely delusional. Certain politicians may want that, the general public either couldn't care less or are fed up of the moaning and want Scotland to leave. Believe it if you want to feel "special" but it is not the reality. Be part of the team or leave but put up or shut up.

I should clarify by the way. I think the UK works well as it is. The sum of the parts is great than the individual constituents etc. However if Scotland wants to go it alone then feel free to leave. At the moment chunks of Scotland are behaving like the troublemaker in a team, the Kevin Pieterson. Understandably that riles the other members and frankly the more Kevin kicks off the more the rest of the team will want "him" to leave. That's human nature. We know not everyone wants independence but we are getting a constant drone of whinging and whining and that inevitably causes discourse. I feel sorry for the Scots who want to remain within the UK. If we are finding it tough south of the border listening to all this again, how hard must it be to hear it constantly north of the border.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 14, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm with Colchester. Believing virtually everyone wants Scotland to stay is hugely delusional. Certain politicians may want that, the general public either couldn't care less or are fed up of the moaning and want Scotland to leave. Believe it if you want to feel "special" but it is not the reality. Be part of the team or leave but put up or shut up.
		
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Please lobby your politicians who want Scotland to stay and try to change their minds then.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The bit that is difficult for me to understand is.......... why you think "virtually everyone" wants Scotland to stay. Aside from the politicians that don't want their legacy to be that they broke up the UK the strongest feelings I've come across with regard to Scottish independence is probably apathy. 

Yes there are some that would like to see Scotland stay and equally some that want Scotland to leave. But *the vast majority just don't care either way*.
		
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Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm with Colchester. Believing virtually everyone wants Scotland to stay is hugely delusional. Certain politicians may want that, the general public either couldn't care less or are fed up of the moaning and want Scotland to leave. Believe it if you want to feel "special" but it is not the reality. Be part of the team or leave but put up or shut up.

I should clarify by the way. I think the UK works well as it is. The sum of the parts is great than the individual constituents etc. However if Scotland wants to go it alone then feel free to leave. At the moment chunks of Scotland are behaving like the troublemaker in a team, the Kevin Pieterson. Understandably that riles the other members and frankly the more Kevin kicks off the more the rest of the team will want "him" to leave. That's human nature. We know not everyone wants independence but we are getting a constant drone of whinging and whining and that inevitably causes discourse. I feel sorry for the Scots who want to remain within the UK. If we are finding it tough south of the border listening to all this again, how hard must it be to hear it constantly north of the border.
		
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:thup:


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## SocketRocket (Oct 14, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Ah! We're in the editing other peoples posts stage.
Does that make you feel powerful?
Like, I bet you wish you could do that in real life.
		
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It's quite easy with you.  Put a bit of bait on the line drop it in the water and 'SNAP'


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## Sweep (Oct 14, 2016)

It pains me that we are still talking about this. Naive I know but after the last time I thought that the issue was resolved and we wouldn't have to put up with anymore of Spock and the Cranky woman. How wrong I was. Losing only made them stronger. As to why, well you would have to ask the Scottish people. 
I am a strong advocate of the Union, but even I find myself hoping the Scots just go now. Enough of the moaning and whinging. They get as good if not a better deal than the rest of us but if I am honest I don't think they will ever be happy. Whilst I would like to think the majority of Scots don't agree with the SNP anti South, anti democratic diatribe and do not share their back of a fag packet, leap in the dark economics we have to accept that they keep voting SNP. I am hoping that this is due to the collapse and lack of credibility of Labour. Let's face it, if you are on the left and live north of the border it's Hobson's choice who to vote for between Labour and the SNP, but the message the rest of the Union is getting is that the Scots want out.
I just hope that when they go and their economy goes belly up we don't end up paying for it all, but I fear we will.


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## User62651 (Oct 14, 2016)

Sweep said:



			It pains me that we are still talking about this. Naive I know but after the last time I thought that the issue was resolved and we wouldn't have to put up with anymore of Spock and the Cranky woman. How wrong I was. Losing only made them stronger. As to why, well you would have to ask the Scottish people. 
I am a strong advocate of the Union, but even I find myself hoping the Scots just go now. Enough of the moaning and whinging. They get as good if not a better deal than the rest of us but if I am honest I don't think they will ever be happy. Whilst I would like to think the majority of Scots don't agree with the SNP anti South, anti democratic diatribe and do not share their back of a fag packet, leap in the dark economics we have to accept that they keep voting SNP. I am hoping that this is due to the collapse and lack of credibility of Labour. Let's face it, if you are on the left and live north of the border it's Hobson's choice who to vote for between Labour and the SNP, but the message the rest of the Union is getting is that the Scots want out.
I just hope that when they go and their economy goes belly up we don't end up paying for it all, but I fear we will.
		
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Some fair points there and I think you could park a lot of these issues squarely at David Cameron's door, he misjudged 2 referendums very badly, came out with all the wrong rhetoric at the wrong time, austerity politics was disastrous, shockingly bad politician playing games for his own political gain. May can only be better. 

Brexit is so huge for Scotland and appears horribly misjudged, ill-informed, xenophobic and inward looking that something has to be done even if its just sabre rattling from Holyrood. Scotland does/did well out of EU and needs EU immigrants, feeling is without it UK will never support Scotland like EU does. Feeling is EU doesn't look down its nose at you and tell you to shut-up as the should be deferrent annoying little partner, Scots have a political voice at the moment and powers that be down south dont like it. Despite its faults EU treats all members fairly equally.

Even after Maggie's carnage through former industrial heartlands and poll tax nonsense the nationalist vote only ran at around 20-25% because Labour were strong. They are now going nowhere under Corbyn so look set to stay down in Scotland too and with leaders like Dugdale is it any wonder?
SNP have filled a Labour vacuum, played a canny political game with free this and that for everyone and stood up for Scots, that's undeniable, it is popularism politics and I think they'll get found out at some stage medium term but with their anti Tory rhetoric they'll continue to do well short term and could win Indyref2 should it get called. If May blocked that it will be seen as undemocratic and only drive a bigger wedge in there. 

I feel if Labour were still a credible force and led by someone like Tony Blair this wouldn't have ever come about imo - neither Indyref nor Brexit. Not a Blair fan especially and Lefties might not like it but a successful centrist Labour party is essential for the UK to survive I think.


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## Val (Oct 14, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Some fair points there and I think you could park a lot of these issues squarely at David Cameron's door, he misjudged 2 referendums very badly, came out with all the wrong rhetoric at the wrong time, austerity politics was disastrous, shockingly bad politician playing games for his own political gain. May can only be better.
		
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100% spot on.


maxfli65 said:



			Brexit is so huge for Scotland and appears horribly misjudged, ill-informed, xenophobic and inward looking that something has to be done even if its just sabre rattling from Holyrood. Scotland does/did well out of EU and needs EU immigrants, feeling is without it UK will never support Scotland like EU does. Feeling is EU doesn't look down its nose at you and tell you to shut-up as the should be deferrent annoying little partner, Scots have a political voice at the moment and powers that be down south dont like it. Despite its faults EU treats all members fairly equally.
		
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Again agree but not wholly. I agree that Scotland is better off within the EU but for it to be as is it has to be part of the union. My reasoning? Scotland would now have to apply as a new member therefore a new member will have to fit a number of criteria and take on a number of criteria and one of those is the Euro, I cannot see that currency being welcomed with open arms by the Scottish people. The EU ship as is known now has sailed.




maxfli65 said:



			Even after Maggie's carnage through former industrial heartlands and poll tax nonsense the nationalist vote only ran at around 20-25% because Labour were strong. They are now going nowhere under Corbyn so look set to stay down in Scotland too and with leaders like Dugdale is it any wonder?
SNP have filled a Labour vacuum, played a canny political game with free this and that for everyone and stood up for Scots, that's undeniable, it is popularism politics and I think they'll get found out at some stage medium term but with their anti Tory rhetoric they'll continue to do well short term and could win Indyref2 should it get called. If May blocked that it will be seen as undemocratic and only drive a bigger wedge in there.
		
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100% spot on, the SNP are almost the "trendy" vote here just now. The do have some decent policies but how they spend public money really needs to be looked at in depth, their level of spending cannot be justified.




maxfli65 said:



			I feel if Labour were still a credible force and led by someone like Tony Blair this wouldn't have ever come about imo - neither Indyref nor Brexit. Not a Blair fan especially and Lefties might not like it but a successful centrist Labour party is essential for the UK to survive I think.
		
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:thup:


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## patricks148 (Oct 14, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Some fair points there and I think you could park a lot of these issues squarely at David Cameron's door, he misjudged 2 referendums very badly, came out with all the wrong rhetoric at the wrong time, austerity politics was disastrous, shockingly bad politician playing games for his own political gain. May can only be better. 

Brexit is so huge for Scotland and appears horribly misjudged, ill-informed, xenophobic and inward looking that something has to be done even if its just sabre rattling from Holyrood. Scotland does/did well out of EU and needs EU immigrants, feeling is without it UK will never support Scotland like EU does. Feeling is EU doesn't look down its nose at you and tell you to shut-up as the should be deferrent annoying little partner, Scots have a political voice at the moment and powers that be down south dont like it. Despite its faults EU treats all members fairly equally.

Even after Maggie's carnage through former industrial heartlands and poll tax nonsense the nationalist vote only ran at around 20-25% because Labour were strong. They are now going nowhere under Corbyn so look set to stay down in Scotland too and with leaders like Dugdale is it any wonder?
SNP have filled a Labour vacuum, played a canny political game with free this and that for everyone and stood up for Scots, that's undeniable, it is popularism politics and I think they'll get found out at some stage medium term but with their anti Tory rhetoric they'll continue to do well short term and could win Indyref2 should it get called. If May blocked that it will be seen as undemocratic and only drive a bigger wedge in there. 

I feel if Labour were still a credible force and led by someone like Tony Blair this wouldn't have ever come about imo - neither Indyref nor Brexit. Not a Blair fan especially and Lefties might not like it but a successful centrist Labour party is essential for the UK to survive I think.
		
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Some very good points here and agree with most of what you say.

if it wasn't for the EU, it would take hours to get to; Tain, Royal Dornoch, even Fortrose


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 14, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Why do you think it only comes down to money?

It's more about aesthetics as far as I'm concerned. The UK isn't a particularly pleasant or appealing prospect.
		
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Because in the real world money is what will keep a country afloat 

If Scotland did go independent would they be able to be financially secure as a country without bail outs or increasing taxes ? It appears the financial forecast from the last independent vote was massively out to the point that if the vote was a yes they would right now be in very big financial trouble without having someone to bail them out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 14, 2016)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkdyok8eQWY&feature=youtu.be


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2016)

Well the UK has left the EU with no-one having a clue about what state the UK economy will be in in 2yrs time - never mind 5yrs or 10yrs.  A complete leap in the dark.  So some undecided of the Scottish electorate who previously thought 'No - too risky - stay with stable UK and in the EU' could well now think 'ah what the heck...might as well'. 

And if the UK economy runs into serious problems who is going to bail the UK out?  Our chancellor of the exchequer running to the European Central Bank for help?


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## Imurg (Oct 14, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkdyok8eQWY&feature=youtu.be



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I watched that live and had a little chuckle....&#128512;&#128513;


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well the UK has left the EU with no-one having a clue about what state the UK economy will be in in 2yrs time - never mind 5yrs or 10yrs.  A complete leap in the dark.  So some undecided of the Scottish electorate who previously thought 'No - too risky - stay with stable UK and in the EU' could well now think 'ah what the heck...might as well'. 

And if the UK economy runs into serious problems who is going to bail the UK out?  Our chancellor of the exchequer running to the European Central Bank for help?
		
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Are you suggesting any UK Government has ever been able to predict what the UK economy will be like in 2/5/10 years time.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

Theresa May need do nothing, if she wants to prevent  another Indy referendum. All May needs to do is get on with the business of government â€“  the â€œblockingâ€ will be done by the presiding officer of the Scottish  Parliament, who would be legally obliged to strike down any legislation  that is outwith the legal competence of Holyrood (as former presiding  officer, the SNPâ€™s Trica Marwick did last December over attempts by MSPs to amend the UK Governments Trades Union Bill)


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Theresa May need do nothing, if she wants to prevent  another Indy referendum. All May needs to do is get on with the business of government â€“  the â€œblockingâ€ will be done by the presiding officer of the Scottish  Parliament, who would be legally obliged to strike down any legislation  that is outwith the legal competence of Holyrood (as former presiding  officer, the SNPâ€™s Trica Marwick did last December over attempts by MSPs to amend the UK Governments Trades Union Bill)
		
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You seem to be forgetting that the Scottish parliament is governed by Scottish law which embraces many EU laws.
That bit could become quite interesting.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to be forgetting that the Scottish parliament is governed by Scottish law which embraces many EU laws.
That bit could become quite interesting.
		
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Thats nothing to do with the issue and you know it.   Explain why my post is incorrect if you can.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...nt-of-independence-day-trilogy-20161014115378


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

Could the Op add an option 'Will not get a vote'


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Could the Op add an option 'Will not get a vote'
		
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I think it's meant to be your prediction of the result rather than which way you'd actually vote.


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## Bobirdie (Oct 15, 2016)

I think a stay vote would win by a lot the next time round. Snp have made a mess of scotland in the last 2 years


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think it's meant to be your prediction of the result rather than which way you'd actually vote.
		
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No.  I mean an option whereby Scotland is not allowed a vote.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats nothing to do with the issue and you know it.   Explain why my post is incorrect if you can.
		
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The example you gave re the TU bill is correct, but I am fairly certain that certain laws enshrined within Scottish Law cannot be overruled without the approval of the Scottish parliament. EU Human Rights being one.


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## Farmergeddon (Oct 15, 2016)

I dont understand all the fuss, even if the vote went in favour of independence there is no way a Scottish government could possibly enact it..Using gov.scot figures IF Scotland Could and did stay in the EU AND the rest of the UK had a hard Brexit that would mean Scotland throwing away a market for about 2/3 of her exports in exchange for one that only takes about 1/7th just dosent make economic sense to anybody thinking logically.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The example you gave re the TU bill is correct, but I am fairly certain that certain laws enshrined within Scottish Law cannot be overruled without the approval of the Scottish parliament. EU Human Rights being one.
		
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Independence referendums not being one.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Independence referendums not being one.
		
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Well we will have to consider debt free UDI in that case.


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well we will have to consider debt free UDI in that case.

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Hahahahahaha

with a budget deficit of 9.4%, which is 2% worse than Greece. 

Hahahahahaha

I'm sure the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms, closely followed by Berlin imposing the sort of fiscal control they did on Greece. And that's independence???

Hahahahahaha


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## Val (Oct 16, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahahaha

with a budget deficit of 9.4%, which is 2% worse than Greece. 

Hahahahahaha

I'm sure the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms, closely followed by Berlin imposing the sort of fiscal control they did on Greece. And that's independence???

Hahahahahaha
		
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That's far too near the truth to be plausible


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahahaha

with a budget deficit of 9.4%, which is 2% worse than Greece. 

Hahahahahaha

I'm sure the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms, closely followed by Berlin imposing the sort of fiscal control they did on Greece. And that's independence???

Hahahahahaha
		
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I think our share of UK debt repayment is around the same figure.

[The wee winkie man was specially for SR]


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think our share of UK debt repayment is around the same figure.

[The wee winkie man was specially for SR]
		
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  I had a suspicion you were  a wee winkie kind of man


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think our share of UK debt repayment is around the same figure.

[The wee winkie man was specially for SR]
		
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Not surpringly, just like with many of your posts in the run up to the first indyref, you either choose to avoid the point or are incapable of recognising it. 

A direct question to you might make it easier. Bearing in mind one of the EU's criteria for entry is a GDP of 3% do you think they'll allow Scotland to join with a GDP of 9.4%?

And if Scotland gets independence, how does it reduce its deficit? Either the SNP drops its vote buying budget or higher taxation, or maybe both. To clear the deficit it needs Â£850 of every worker. Ignoring everyone on minimum wage, or less than the average, that's a Â£2k pay cut(tax hike), or about 7% increase. That's a big vote winner but will no doubt be labelled as scaremongering before the next Indyref.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 16, 2016)

Scotland's deficit is only relevant when it is in a position to control it itself, independently.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 16, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Scotland's deficit is only relevant when it is in a position to control it itself, independently.
		
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Would say it very relevant , right now it shows that financially Scotland would be unable to stand on their own two feet without increasing taxes on their own people and also would not be allowed into Europe 

Scotland it seems has had increased public spending controlled by Scottish Parliament yet income dropped dramatically 

Seems there is a Â£15bn gap 

https://www.theguardian.com/society...worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit?0p19G=c

Seems from the report that Scotland cant financially afford to go Independent


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## chippa1909 (Oct 16, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would say it very relevant , right now it shows that financially Scotland would be unable to stand on their own two feet without increasing taxes on their own people and also would not be allowed into Europe 

Scotland it seems has had increased public spending controlled by Scottish Parliament yet income dropped dramatically 

Seems there is a Â£15bn gap 

https://www.theguardian.com/society...worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit?0p19G=c

Seems from the report that Scotland cant financially afford to go Independent
		
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By law, Scotland isn't allowed to run a deficit. The figures are an estimate based on Scotland's share of the UK deficit.


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Scotland's deficit is only relevant when it is in a position to control it itself, independently.
		
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chippa1909 said:



			By law, Scotland isn't allowed to run a deficit. The figures are an estimate based on Scotland's share of the UK deficit.
		
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The calculation is quite simple. Money in 'v' money out = Â£15bn BUDGET deficit. 

Then it it gets a little more complicated. The UK's deficit = 4%-ish, of which Scotland is actually way over as part of the calculation but when averaged out it equals 4% as a U.K. number. That clearly indicates that other parts of the UK are doing way better. Bit of a shock really when you think how much Scotland spends per head compared to the rest of the UK.

What actually makes it more worrying is the Block Grant has been reduced considerably, which the SNP has touted as unfair, but the balance has been made up by income tax revenues now going to the Scottish government. So in reality it's the SNP that are even more responsible for the problem.

The simple version is the SNP are spending a fortune to buy votes and goodwill. The not so simple version is they have already been pulled up by the EU auditor for illegally funding projects. They've then moved money from other areas of the budget to fund those projects, which has caused more problems in the budgeting.

Its a house of cards that will lead to lots of tears for the average working man.

An independent Scotland, yes. But it has to be viable. Is it? Do you really think it is at present?

If you want independence as the right thing as an independent country, irrespective of the consequences, I'd support that. If you want it to be independent and viable, I'd support that too but you're gonna have to sort a responsible government. The SNP are nowhere near that.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			By law, Scotland isn't allowed to run a deficit. The figures are an estimate based on Scotland's share of the UK deficit.
		
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You dont really understand how it works.   Take a read of the attached link and maybe you will then understand how much better it is for Scotland in the UK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont really understand how it works.   Take a read of the attached link and maybe you will then understand how much better it is for Scotland in the UK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975

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...and how do we know how much better off or worse off anyone will be in three years time - well we haven't a the foggiest as the brave Brexiteers don;t even know what they want out of negotiations so how can anyone say how much better off or worse off an indy Scotland would be.  Nobody knows because nobody knows what the UK economy will be like.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and how do we know how much better off or worse off anyone will be in three years time - well we haven't a the foggiest as the brave Brexiteers don;t even know what they want out of negotiations so how can anyone say how much better off or worse off an indy Scotland would be.  Nobody knows because nobody knows what the UK economy will be like.
		
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If Scotland is Independent then why would it be affected by what happens in the UK?    

Can you explain this for me:   You are all of a lather about the UK leaving the EU Single Market but strongly in favor of Scotland leaving the UK Single Market where it does the vast majority of it's trade tariff free.  Why?

Just asking!

PS.  Regarding what the Government (Described by you as 'the brave Brexiteers' for some reason) want out of negotiations is only an issue with you and your ilk.   Other people understand that they want the best deal they can negotiate taking into account the message from the majority of voters.  Control of immigration, Sovereignty of our law making and the best trade deal possible.    Only people like you with hidden agendas dont seem to follow this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If Scotland is Independent then why would it be affected by what happens in the UK?    

Can you explain this for me:   You are all of a lather about the UK leaving the EU Single Market but strongly in favor of Scotland leaving the UK Single Market where it does the vast majority of it's trade tariff free.  Why?

Just asking!

PS.  Regarding what the Government (Described by you as 'the brave Brexiteers' for some reason) want out of negotiations is only an issue with you and your ilk.   Other people understand that they want the best deal they can negotiate taking into account the message from the majority of voters.  Control of immigration, Sovereignty of our law making and the best trade deal possible.    Only people like you with hidden agendas dont seem to follow this.
		
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Because Scotland currently isn't an independent country - as so WILL be very much affected by what happens in the UK over the next three years.  And as we have no idea what state the UK economy will be in in three years time we have no idea what Scotland's will be, and hence nobody has a, idea of the economic starting point for any assessment of Scotland's economy better in UK or out of UK.

I'm not in a lather about the UK leaving the single market.  I think it would be a stupid thing to do.  I follow the words of what the majority want - the problem is that you most very probably can't have them all (most commentators actually think there is not a cat in hells chance of getting all three - but as you'll just say 'why can't we?' - we're GREAT Britain - they'll be desperate to make a deal with us - in fact I hear that some Brexiters think the EU should pay US to trade with the UK - good one of we can get it).  So which ones are there flexibility on.  I suppose control of immigration is the easiest because we could admit the same numbers of immigrants - and just say that we decided to let them in - and that's control - I suppose.

If you prefer I'll call them the Baffled and Bemused Brexiteers if you prefer


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because Scotland currently isn't an independent country - as so WILL be very much affected by what happens in the UK over the next three years.  And as we have no idea what state the UK economy will be in in three years time we have no idea what Scotland's will be, and hence nobody has a, idea of the economic starting point for any assessment of Scotland's economy better in UK or out of UK.

I'm not in a lather about the UK leaving the single market.  I think it would be a stupid thing to do.  I follow the words of what the majority want - the problem is that you most very probably can't have them all (most commentators actually think there is not a cat in hells chance of getting all three - but as you'll just say 'why can't we?' - we're GREAT Britain - they'll be desperate to make a deal with us - in fact I hear that some Brexiters think the EU should pay US to trade with the UK - good one of we can get it).  So which ones are there flexibility on.  I suppose control of immigration is the easiest because we could admit the same numbers of immigrants - and just say that we decided to let them in - and that's control - I suppose.

If you prefer I'll call them the Baffled and Bemused Brexiteers if you prefer
		
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We can agree on the fact that Scotland is not an independent country, they are part of the UK and as such have no independent place in the EU or anywhere else on the International political scene.  Just Like England, Wales and Northern Ireland.   All this claptrap about people in Scotland voting to stay in the EU giving a mandate to Sturgeon is just spin and gerrymandering by the SNP to help achieve their independence aims and nothing to do with whats best for Scotland.

The parts of your post about how you perceive Brexiteers is nothing to do with me (call them waht you wish).   I just want us to explain that we want a free trade deal with no free movement and no payments to the club or were off on our own.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We can agree on the fact that Scotland is not an independent country, they are part of the UK and as such have no independent place in the EU or anywhere else on the International political scene.  Just Like England, Wales and Northern Ireland.   All this claptrap about people in Scotland voting to stay in the EU giving a mandate to Sturgeon is just spin and gerrymandering by the SNP to help achieve their independence aims and nothing to do with whats best for Scotland.

The parts of your post about how you perceive Brexiteers is nothing to do with me (call them waht you wish).   I just want us to explain that we want a free trade deal with no free movement and no payments to the club or were off on our own.
		
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What a load of claptrap.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			What a load of claptrap.
		
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 I would like to have an intellectual battle with you on the subject but it's a bit unfair of me attacking an unarmed man :thup:


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## Tashyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

Quite frankly am not interested one bit and was even more disappointed that the poll did not give us an option of not bothered.

As I see it the UK has helped Scotland keep its head above water for years, the Uk Has invested heavily in North Sea oil, which has benefited the hole of the U.K. Scotland pushed for its independence on the basis that oil will support its economy. Well that went tits up pretty quickly didn't it. Seems that is all forgot about now though. Scotland sorry Jimmy Krankie wants to stay in the EU but at the moment it does not meet financial requirements. Seems that is all forgot about now though. Scotland joins the UK owing billions which the UK paid for. Seems that bit is all forgot about now though. Find the whole Scotland episode tiresome. I got more from the EU than what I get from Scotland and I voted to leave, so Scotland as far as I am concerned van go the same way. Scotland in the EU will be as influential as Rangers and Celtic in the champs league.


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## HDID Kenny (Oct 17, 2016)

WHO will pay for Indy2 then 3, 4 or however many it takes?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 18, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Quite frankly am not interested one bit and was even more disappointed that the poll did not give us an option of not bothered.
		
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If you're not interested why are you disappointed in the poll options?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 18, 2016)

drive4show said:



			If you're not interested why are you disappointed in the poll options?  

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So I could of voted not interested as explained. &#128077;


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 18, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Quite frankly am not interested one bit and was even more disappointed that the poll did not give us an option of not bothered.

As I see it the UK has helped Scotland keep its head above water for years, the Uk Has invested heavily in North Sea oil, which has benefited the hole of the U.K. Scotland pushed for its independence on the basis that oil will support its economy. Well that went tits up pretty quickly didn't it. Seems that is all forgot about now though. Scotland sorry Jimmy Krankie wants to stay in the EU but at the moment it does not meet financial requirements. Seems that is all forgot about now though. Scotland joins the UK owing billions which the UK paid for. Seems that bit is all forgot about now though. Find the whole Scotland episode tiresome. I got more from the EU than what I get from Scotland and I voted to leave, so Scotland as far as I am concerned van go the same way. Scotland in the EU will be as influential as Rangers and Celtic in the champs league.
		
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That's a big post for someone who isn't interested...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

Well written piece by John Wight of the Huffpost.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence-is-_b_12512554.html?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well written piece by John Wight of the Huffpost.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence-is-_b_12512554.html?

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Without yet having read it I assume by "well written piece" you mean that it agrees with your point of view. 

I'll now read it to confirm my suspicions.


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## Crazyface (Oct 18, 2016)

HDID Kenny said:



			WHO will pay for Indy2 then 3, 4 or however many it takes?
		
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It should come out of SNP funds. They want the thing, THEY should pay for it. Like in real life. You get the first one for free, then if you want another one, YOU PAY !


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well written piece by John Wight of the Huffpost.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence-is-_b_12512554.html?

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A well written piece using some fairly emotive language. "Wrenching Scotland out of the single market, regardless of the fact she has no mandate to do so". Another person that fails to understand that Scotland isn't a member of the single market any more than England or Wales are. The UK is a member of the single market and the UK, which Scotland voted to remain a part of, voted to leave the EU and as a result MIGHT not have the same access to the single market as it had before.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			It should come out of SNP funds. They want the thing, THEY should pay for it. Like in real life. You get the first one for free, then if you want another one, YOU PAY !
		
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BTW - it's not just the SNP who want Independence - Greens, some Labour, some Lib Dems also want independence.  Indeed some (though not that many) SNP supporters don't actually want independence.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			A well written piece using some fairly emotive language. "Wrenching Scotland out of the single market, regardless of the fact she has no mandate to do so". Another person that fails to understand that Scotland isn't a member of the single market any more than England or Wales are. The UK is a member of the single market and the UK, which Scotland voted to remain a part of, voted to leave the EU and as a result MIGHT not have the same access to the single market as it had before.
		
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By BT and Westminster stating in the Independence Referendum that Scotland was an equal partner in the UK - and then excluding the (Tory) Scottish Secretary from the core Brexit team - May is playing straight into the hands of the Indy crowd and the SNP government.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			It should come out of SNP funds. They want the thing, THEY should pay for it. Like in real life. You get the first one for free, then if you want another one, YOU PAY !
		
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Not quite so - you pay your membership of the golf club and you can play as many times as you want - for free.  Scotland is part of the UK Club - as we is always being told.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not quite so - you pay your membership of the golf club and you can play as many times as you want - for free.  Scotland is part of the UK Club - as we is always being told.
		
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But it isn't a UK referendum it's a Scottish one. Continuing your analogy how would you feel if you paid to join your golf club and then half way through your membership you were told that you had to pay extra for a competition at your neighbouring club. Oh and by the way you can't take part in that competition.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			By BT and Westminster stating in the Independence Referendum that Scotland was an equal partner in the UK - and then excluding the (Tory) Scottish Secretary from the core Brexit team - May is playing straight into the hands of the Indy crowd and the SNP government.
		
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Does it really matter what the government at Westminster does? They could pay off the mortgage for everyone in Scotland and announce 0% income tax for all Scottish workers and you'd still get that awful wee Jimmy Krankie woman standing at the top of Arthur's Seat, with a saltire painted on her face, yelling "Freedom".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			But it isn't a UK referendum it's a Scottish one. Continuing your analogy how would you feel if you paid to join your golf club and then half way through your membership you were told that you had to pay extra for a competition at your neighbouring club. Oh and by the way you can't take part in that competition.
		
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Yup - I'd be cheesed off - but are you not making my point?  Scotland has paid it's membership subs for Club UK - and there is no limit specified as part of membership to the number of referendums that the UK or any member of the UK can have called.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does it really matter what the government at Westminster does? They could pay off the mortgage for everyone in Scotland and announce 0% income tax for all Scottish workers and you'd still get that awful wee Jimmy Krankie woman standing at the top of Arthur's Seat, with a saltire painted on her face, yelling "Freedom".
		
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Indeed she would - because she is the leader of the SNP - but she might not find so many people listening.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does it really matter what the government at Westminster does? They could pay off the mortgage for everyone in Scotland and announce 0% income tax for all Scottish workers and you'd still get that awful wee Jimmy Krankie woman standing at the top of Arthur's Seat, with a saltire painted on her face, yelling "Freedom".
		
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Oh dear.


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			By BT and Westminster stating in the Independence Referendum that Scotland was an equal partner in the UK - and then excluding the (Tory) Scottish Secretary from the core Brexit team - May is playing straight into the hands of the Indy crowd and the SNP government.
		
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Pretty certain that as a member of the golf club you don't get invited to every meeting the committee holds, using you golf club example later in the thread, and decisions affecting your club are made every month...


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - I'd be cheesed off - but are you not making my point?  Scotland has paid it's membership subs for Club UK - and there is no limit specified as part of membership to the number of referendums that the UK or any member of the UK can have called.
		
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In what way has Scotland "paid it's membership subs"? I thought there was some debate but it was largely accepted that Scotland operates in a deficit...


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## Val (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			But it isn't a UK referendum it's a Scottish one. Continuing your analogy how would you feel if you paid to join your golf club and then half way through your membership you were told that you had to pay extra for a competition at your neighbouring club. Oh and by the way you can't take part in that competition.
		
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It's not the same as playing at a neighbouring club though in reality it's like not being able to play in the juniors, seniors or ladies comps. Perfectly acceptable.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

Val said:



			It's not the same as playing at a neighbouring club though in reality it's like not being able to play in the juniors, seniors or ladies comps. Perfectly acceptable.
		
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I'm not suggesting that it's not acceptable or that the rest of the UK should be allowed to take part. It's a decision for the Scottish people to make. But why should someone have to pay for a junior comp, for example, if they aren't allowed to play in it?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2016)

You guys are losing me with the golf club metaphor but I think there's a lot of point missing going on all round.

It's politics and by excluding the Scottish government from the planning and negotiations they are playing right into the snp's hands. They will make maximum political capital from that as they try to stoke anti-Westminster sentiment here. At least try and make it difficult for them!


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## Val (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not suggesting that it's not acceptable or that the rest of the UK should be allowed to take part. It's a decision for the Scottish people to make. But why should someone have to pay for a junior comp, for example, if they aren't allowed to play in it?
		
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Fair point, I believe if the SNP want an indyref2 they should fund it themselves


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty certain that as a member of the golf club you don't get invited to every meeting the committee holds, using you golf club example later in the thread, and decisions affecting your club are made every month...
		
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Except all committees are made up of members or members reps.  Tell me why the Scottish Secretary *should not *be on the core team - after all he is a Tory so hardly likely to 'leak' what is discussed and agreed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You guys are losing me with the golf club metaphor but I think there's a lot of point missing going on all round.

*It's politics and by excluding the Scottish government from the planning and negotiations they are playing right into the snp's hands. They will make maximum political capital from that as they try to stoke anti-Westminster sentiment here. At least try and make it difficult for them!*

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Exactly.  Someone might come up with a very good reason why it is inappropriate for the Scottish Secretary to be in the core team - but May surely recognises that by excluding Mundell she is playing right into the hands of the SNP.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 18, 2016)

How big is the core team now? If the Scottish sec was included then you would also need to add the Welsh and Irish as well, no English sec of course..........What starts as a core becomes a huge committee and too cumbersome. You can't include everyone if you want it to actually make decisions. People need to be grown up about it but they don't want to as that doesn't suit their own agenda.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How big is the core team now? If the Scottish sec was included then you would also need to add the Welsh and Irish as well, no English sec of course..........What starts as a core becomes a huge committee and too cumbersome. You can't include everyone if you want it to actually make decisions. People need to be grown up about it but they don't want to as that doesn't suit their own agenda.
		
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Yes - I absolutely agree.  But by not including the Scottish Secretary, other than by invitation, an impression of Scotland not being the equal partner promised is given, and this is lapped up by Indy supporters.  

I read that there are 12 ministers on May's core team - nice nod to the 12 disciples there (wondering who plays Judas - who will betray her (Hammond?); who is Peter her closet ally but who is crucified for his troubles (Davis?); and Simon the Zealot (Johnson?).  But I'm afraid I would struggle to argue that Andrea Leadsom merits inclusion ahead of Mundell and what would be lost?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

Good to see the Scottish First Minister supporting the third Heathrow runway.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 20, 2016)

Interesting timing that the Ref2 consultancy period ends a couple of weeks before A50 is invoked.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting timing that the Ref2 consultancy period ends a couple of weeks before A50 is invoked.
		
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About as interesting as a wet weekend in Worthing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			About as interesting as a wet weekend in Worthing.
		
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What was the point of saying that...?  It's exactly the sort of statement coming from south of the border that nationalists feed off and use to justify their case.  "The English don't give a...about us"


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2016)

Inevitable timing really. The SNP want to link the two, it gives them justification in their eyes. Not sure what the justification for IndyRef3 will be. I'm sure Nicola's successor will find one.


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Inevitable timing really. The SNP want to link the two, it gives them justification in their eyes. Not sure what the justification for IndyRef3 will be. I'm sure Nicola's successor will find one.
		
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In case most of you down south hadn't noticed we have and SNP gov in Scotland and  number one on its manifesto is an Independent Scotland... so this can't be that much of a surprise


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What was the point of saying that...?  It's exactly the sort of statement coming from south of the border that nationalists feed off and use to justify their case.  "The English don't give a...about us"
		
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The point was that it's 'Doom' saying it and he says nothing that's not designed to get a reaction.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			In case most of you down south hadn't noticed we have and SNP gov in Scotland and  number one on its manifesto is an Independent Scotland... so this can't be that much of a surprise
		
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Is that not second to ruining the economy!


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Is that not second to ruining the economy!
		
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I thought that was Maggie!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			In case most of you down south hadn't noticed we have and SNP gov in Scotland and  number one on its manifesto is an Independent Scotland... so this can't be that much of a surprise
		
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"Once in a generation". Us down south, but still north actually, remember that very clearly. I read his lips as he spoke. Foolishly I took the SNP at their word. 

Yes their name is a clue but I did hope the ink would be fully dry on the ballot papers before this was resurrected again.


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			"Once in a generation". Us down south, but still north actually, remember that very clearly. I read his lips as he spoke. Foolishly I took the SNP at their word. 

Yes their name is a clue but I did hope the ink would be fully dry on the ballot papers before this was resurrected again.
		
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You believed something King Eck said.... thats part of the problem


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2016)

Ha ha. Quite right &#128513;


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			I thought that was Maggie!
		
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Not easy when you are dead.


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## patricks148 (Oct 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Not easy when you are dead.
		
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The damage was long long ago, the UK will still be feeling the effects long after.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2016)

New minimum alcohol pricing law upheld by Scottish Courts.
Good news for Scotland.
Doubles the price of White Cider.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2016)

DFT - I agree, it has to be good news. Both this and the limits for driving are areas where the rest of the UK should be following Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			DFT - I agree, it has to be good news. Both this and the limits for driving are areas where the rest of the UK should be following Scotland.
		
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Yet still you struggle to get zero% alcohol beer in Scottish pubs and restaurants - other than the ubiquitous Becks Blue.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2016)

Zero alcohol beer tastes like dishwater. Forget about it. Just have a lemonade or orange juice. Is it that big a deal to not drink beer, non alcoholic, for one night? 

I presume it is not stocked because people don't buy it. Of course, they may not buy it because they don't get a chance to try it and like it. Vicious circle etc.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			DFT - I agree, it has to be good news. Both this and the limits for driving are areas where the rest of the UK should be following Scotland.
		
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Hmm! I spent a week in Scotland recently and forget all about their much stricter drink drive limits for several days until somebody pointed it out to me. Fortunately I got away with it. Would pleading being English have got me off?  Generally I only drank about a pint of beer and a glass of wine with a meal, which is OK in the rest of the UK.


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## ger147 (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			Hmm! I spent a week in Scotland recently and forget all about their much stricter drink drive limits for several days until somebody pointed it out to me. Fortunately I got away with it. Would pleading being English have got me off?  Generally I only drank about a pint of beer and a glass of wine with a meal, which is OK in the rest of the UK.
		
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A defence of "sorry M'lurd, I'm English" in a Scottish courtroom? Aye, deffo go for that, I'm sure that would work...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

ger147 said:



			A defence of "sorry M'lurd, I'm English" in a Scottish courtroom? Aye, deffo go for that, I'm sure that would work...
		
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LOL :thup:


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## chippa1909 (Oct 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I would like to have an intellectual battle with you on the subject but it's a bit unfair of me attacking an unarmed man :thup:
		
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Why should I debate with you when I can debate with people that matter, and will have a vote.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 22, 2016)

HDID Kenny said:



			WHO will pay for Indy2 then 3, 4 or however many it takes?
		
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World Health Organisation??


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Why should I debate with you when I can debate with people that matter, and will have a vote.
		
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What vote is that then?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2016)

Speaking of Indyref2 votes :lol:.
It is interesting to note that all of the politicians who signed the [false] Vow in 2014 are no longer in any position of power.

llama Karma


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Hmm! I spent a week in Scotland recently and forget all about their much stricter drink drive limits for several days until somebody pointed it out to me. Fortunately I got away with it. Would pleading being English have got me off?  Generally I only drank about a pint of beer and a glass of wine with a meal, which is OK in the rest of the UK.
		
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I very much doubt that a pint and a glass of wine is acceptable anywhere in the UK if you are going to drive afterwards. Genuinely. You need a rethink.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Zero alcohol beer tastes like dishwater. Forget about it. Just have a lemonade or orange juice. Is it that big a deal to not drink beer, non alcoholic, for one night? 

I presume it is not stocked because people don't buy it. Of course, they may not buy it because they don't get a chance to try it and like it. Vicious circle etc.
		
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I must be a bit odd........I don't mind Becks Blue.
Watched a couple of teenage boys getting drunk on it one night at a family do.....that was funny.
They thought I was a great guy for buying then beers.


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## patricks148 (Oct 22, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I very much doubt that a pint and a glass of wine is acceptable anywhere in the UK if you are going to drive afterwards. Genuinely. You need a rethink.
		
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yes i suspect even a pint is touch and go now days. if I'm driving i dont touch a drop not worth it


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## delc (Oct 22, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			yes i suspect even a pint is touch and go now days. if I'm driving i dont touch a drop not worth it
		
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In England and Wales we have a more sensible alcohol limit of 80mg per 100ml of blood, or 35ug/100ml of breath. For an average sized person that is at least 3 units of alcohol. I drink up to that limit, but never beyond it if I am driving afterwards. No alcohol at all sounds a bit Scottish Presbyterian puritanical misery to me, but that is one of the disadvantages of having a devolved Parliament up there!


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## Val (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			In England and Wales we have a more sensible alcohol limit of 80mg per 100ml of blood, or 35ug/100ml of breath. For an average sized person that is at least 3 units of alcohol. I drink up to that limit, but never beyond it if I am driving afterwards. No alcohol at all sounds a bit Scottish Presbyterian puritanical misery to me, but that is one of the disadvantages of having a devolved Parliament up there!
		
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What a pile of nonsense. Only a fool would defend an increase in alcohol allowable consumption for driving. Your 1 beer and 1 glass of wine would put you over the limit in England and Wales.

There is nothing wrong with the limit in Scotland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			In England and Wales we have a more sensible alcohol limit of 80mg per 100ml of blood, or 35ug/100ml of breath. For an average sized person that is at least 3 units of alcohol. I drink up to that limit, but never beyond it if I am driving afterwards. No alcohol at all sounds a bit Scottish Presbyterian puritanical misery to me, but that is one of the disadvantages of having a devolved Parliament up there!
		
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Or advantages if you value lives..
England and Wales are lagging behind progressive thinking re safe driving.
As you were with Smoking in public and minimum alcohol pricing.
Canadian hospital saw a 30% drop in hospital admits after their alcohol pricing laws changed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			In England and Wales we have a more sensible alcohol limit of 80mg per 100ml of blood, or 35ug/100ml of breath. For an average sized person that is at least 3 units of alcohol. I drink up to that limit, but never beyond it if I am driving afterwards. No alcohol at all sounds a bit Scottish Presbyterian puritanical misery to me, but that is one of the disadvantages of having a devolved Parliament up there!
		
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One beer and one wine would more than likely put you over the limit - let's hope you don't cause harm to someone else with your ill judgement.

Not sure what sort of person is thankful for the increase of allowed alcohol limit whilst getting behind the wheel - it's typical of the old school golfer attitude - just a couple of quick drinks after golf then drive home , until one day someone causes serious harm in the car


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			In England and Wales we have a more sensible alcohol limit of 80mg per 100ml of blood, or 35ug/100ml of breath. For an average sized person that is at least 3 units of alcohol. I drink up to that limit, but never beyond it if I am driving afterwards. No alcohol at all sounds a bit Scottish Presbyterian puritanical misery to me, but that is one of the disadvantages of having a devolved Parliament up there!
		
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I assume you've under gone extensive medical tests to ascertain that your metabolism is "average".............
Approximately 1 hour per unit is the accepted "average".....
You can be small in stature but metabolise quicker or larger and metabolise slower....
Also, a pint of strong lager can be 3 units, a pint of weaker ale, less than 2....
Average is exactly that. An average.
Most of us are not average.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 22, 2016)

I agree with others and a) how do you know what's "average" and b) why increase it. If anything, I'd prefer a simple zero tolerance and then it's a level playing field. Can't see it happening of course although it is in place elsewhere http://www.drinkdriving.org/worldwide_drink_driving_limits.php


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## patricks148 (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			In England and Wales we have a more sensible alcohol limit of 80mg per 100ml of blood, or 35ug/100ml of breath. For an average sized person that is at least 3 units of alcohol. I drink up to that limit, but never beyond it if I am driving afterwards. No alcohol at all sounds a bit Scottish Presbyterian puritanical misery to me, but that is one of the disadvantages of having a devolved Parliament up there!
		
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good luck with that then, when you get stopped and fail the breathalyzer test, get dragged to the local Police Station that will be a great comfort.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			In England and Wales we have a more sensible alcohol limit of 80mg per 100ml of blood, or 35ug/100ml of breath. For an average sized person that is at least 3 units of alcohol. I drink up to that limit, but never beyond it if I am driving afterwards. No alcohol at all sounds a bit Scottish Presbyterian puritanical misery to me, but that is one of the disadvantages of having a devolved Parliament up there!
		
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1 average strength pint = approx. 2 units
1x 125ml glass of wine = 1.4/1.6 units - obviously a 250ml glass, if that's your preference, is about 3 units.

Busted!


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## delc (Oct 22, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			good luck with that then, when you get stopped and fail the breathalyzer test, get dragged to the local Police Station that will be a great comfort.
		
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I passed a breathalyser test after drinking 2 pints a couple of years ago, although that was spread over several hours and my body would have eliminated some of it, at a rate of about one unit per hour.


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## delc (Oct 22, 2016)

What was funny a few years ago, I drove to a pub in a friend's village on New Year's Eve for a private party there. I only drank soft drinks all evening and didn't touch a drop of alcohol. When the party finished in the small hours of the morning we all drove out to find a Police car waiting just down the road. And who did they stop? Me! The young policeman &#128110; who breathalysed me looked most disappointed when I registered zero! In the meantime loads of really drunken drivers drove past without being stopped. I nearly gave my profession as 'professional decoy', but thought better of it!


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			I passed a breathalyser test after drinking 2 pints a couple of years ago, although that was spread over several hours and my body would have eliminated some of it, at a rate of about one unit per hour.
		
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Delc, there are several online calculators that you might want to have a look at. It looks like your perception is skewed. 1 pint and one x 125ml of wine drank between 1pm and 2pm today would see you over the limit till about 6:30pm. What a lot of people don't realise is the absorption rate is not linear. The more in your body the longer it takes to process each unit. 

Obviously your size and metabolic rate will make a difference but unless you're at the extremes of weight and rate the absorption will be pretty similar for like for like size.


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## Val (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			I passed a breathalyser test after drinking 2 pints a couple of years ago, although that was spread over several hours and my body would have eliminated some of it, at a rate of about one unit per hour.
		
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That makes it alright then I suppose


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 22, 2016)

I'm sorry but that attitude is scary. Really scary. Very 1970's.


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## delc (Oct 22, 2016)

Val said:



			That makes it alright then I suppose
		
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Yes!


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Yes!
		
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Sorry but that's deplorable attitude in my eyes. You got away with it once but your driving will have been impaired regardless. Next time you may not be so lucky


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 22, 2016)

I know that he can defend himself but I think I've just discovered where some of the high horses that the Remainers had to climb down from after the referendum have gone. Lots of holier than thou attitudes on this thread and I suspect that some of the comments are directed at the poster rather than the posts. DelC has done nothing wrong. He had a couple of pints, got breathalysed and was under the legal limit. Yes his driving might have been impaired but it was impaired within the limit that the laws allow, therefore he hasn't done anything wrong. If you want to criticise anyone over this then aim it at the government as they set the limits to which DelC has stuck.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I know that he can defend himself but I think I've just discovered where some of the high horses that the Remainers had to climb down from after the referendum have gone. Lots of holier than thou attitudes on this thread and I suspect that some of the comments are directed at the poster rather than the posts. DelC has done nothing wrong. He had a couple of pints, got breathalysed and was under the legal limit. Yes his driving might have been impaired but it was impaired within the limit that the laws allow, therefore he hasn't done anything wrong. If you want to criticise anyone over this then aim it at the government as they set the limits to which DelC has stuck.
		
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I agree that it's a governmental issue. As I said earlier I'd prefer zero tolerance and everyone knows where they stand there. I grant Delc did nothing wrong legally, but a couple of pints one day may not react the same way the next. How does anyone know?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			What was funny a few years ago, I drove to a pub in a friend's village on New Year's Eve for a private party there. I only drank soft drinks all evening and didn't touch a drop of alcohol. When the party finished in the small hours of the morning we all drove out to find a Police car waiting just down the road. And who did they stop? Me! The young policeman &#128110; who breathalysed me looked most disappointed when I registered zero! In the meantime loads of really drunken drivers drove past without being stopped. I nearly gave my profession as 'professional decoy', but thought better of it!  

Click to expand...

I actually understand ColchesterFC's post, what I can't understand is you thinking all the drunk drivers not being caught and sober guy being stopped being funny, I find it anything but funny  how many lives could've been ruined that night!


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## Val (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Yes!
		
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Your a bigger clown than I thought then


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## Val (Oct 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I know that he can defend himself but I think I've just discovered where some of the high horses that the Remainers had to climb down from after the referendum have gone. Lots of holier than thou attitudes on this thread and I suspect that some of the comments are directed at the poster rather than the posts. DelC has done nothing wrong. He had a couple of pints, got breathalysed and was under the legal limit. Yes his driving might have been impaired but it was impaired within the limit that the laws allow, therefore he hasn't done anything wrong. If you want to criticise anyone over this then aim it at the government as they set the limits to which DelC has stuck.
		
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I stand by what I said, anyone who thinks an increase in alcohol driving limits is a good thing is a fool. It's not the laws im criticising it's his attitude.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2016)

Whats Delc's drinking got to do with Indyref2?


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You guys are losing me with the golf club *metaphor*....
		
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Er...Try 'analogy' FD!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats Delc's drinking got to do with Indyref2?
		
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I think it's got something to do with the fact that only people who have been drinking heavily think that Scottish independence is a good idea. 

P.S. To be totally fair to our Scottish brethren I also accept that they might have been snorting, smoking or injecting something to reach the same conclusion.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			You guys are losing me with the golf club metaphor but I think there's a lot of point missing going on all round.
		
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It's allegorical.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think it's got something to do with the fact that only people who have been drinking heavily think that Scottish independence is a good idea. 

*P.S. To be totally fair to our Scottish brethren I also accept that they might have been snorting, smoking or injecting something to reach the same conclusion*.
		
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Probably a deadly mix of tartan shortbread and haggis.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Try 'analogy' FD! 

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Only if you try not being a smartarse....


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## delc (Oct 22, 2016)

Val said:



			I stand by what I said, anyone who thinks an increase in alcohol driving limits is a good thing is a fool. It's not the laws im criticising it's his attitude.
		
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They haven't been increased in England and Wales; just stayed the same!


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			Hmm! I spent a week in Scotland recently and forget all about their much stricter drink drive limits for several days until somebody pointed it out to me. Fortunately I got away with it. Would pleading being English have got me off?  Generally I only drank about a pint of beer and a glass of wine with a meal, which is OK in the rest of the UK.
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			I know that he can defend himself but I think I've just discovered where some of the high horses that the Remainers had to climb down from after the referendum have gone. Lots of holier than thou attitudes on this thread and I suspect that some of the comments are directed at the poster rather than the posts. DelC has done nothing wrong. He had a couple of pints, got breathalysed and was under the legal limit. Yes his driving might have been impaired but it was impaired within the limit that the laws allow, therefore *he hasn't done anything wrong*. If you want to criticise anyone over this then aim it at the government as they set the limits to which DelC has stuck.
		
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not stickily true though is it, heres dels post where he states he "got away with it"


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2016)

One of the big changes I have noticed is peoples attitude to drink in the later evenings.
Both my daughters do not drink after 9pm if they are driving the following morning.

The new unit prices make a lot of sense, it hits the white cider/cheap wine drinkers who are mainly teenagers and alcoholics.
Sadly it will not affect Buckfast which [I am informed ] now costs about Â£9 a bottle.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's allegorical.
		
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'Allegorical' would be like interpreting the meaning of the Scots using the Thistle as their symbol! Colourful and Prickly! 

Sorry FD. The aberration in your normally succinct vocabulary was too conspicuous to ignore!  That's my ration of long words for the day! Now should it have been 'in', 'of' or 'to'?


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## Val (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			They haven't been increased in England and Wales; just stayed the same!
		
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I'll rephrase, you made reference to the fact that they are more acceptable limit than in Scotland because they are higher.


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## Val (Oct 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One of the big changes I have noticed is peoples attitude to drink in the later evenings.
Both my daughters do not drink after 9pm if they are driving the following morning.

The new unit prices make a lot of sense, it hits the white cider/cheap wine drinkers who are mainly teenagers and alcoholics.
Sadly it will not affect Buckfast which [I am informed ] now costs about Â£9 a bottle.
		
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The reality of the situation in Scotland is the reduced limits have changed attitude towards drinking as people no consider options when having any drink at all if they have to drive however the chances of being caught driving over the limit are no greater as they didn't all of a sudden increase breath tests.


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## Hobbit (Oct 23, 2016)

Val said:



			The reality of the situation in Scotland is the reduced limits have changed attitude towards drinking as people no consider options when having any drink at all if they have to drive however the chances of being caught driving over the limit are no greater as they didn't all of a sudden increase breath tests.
		
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But, in the main, has the reduced limits only affected those that have a responsible attitude? On a personal level I'm genuinely shocked at the (open) levels of alcohol abuse up here. Middlesbrough isn't exactly a shining light in responsible drinking but, flippin' heck, Aberdeen has people falling over drunk every evening I've been in town. Quite often from early evening. It's a real eye opener.


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			But, in the main, has the reduced limits only affected those that have a responsible attitude? On a personal level I'm genuinely shocked at the (open) levels of alcohol abuse up here. Middlesbrough isn't exactly a shining light in responsible drinking but, flippin' heck, Aberdeen has people falling over drunk every evening I've been in town. Quite often from early evening. It's a real eye opener.
		
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Unfortunately Brian alcohol in Scotland is a bit of a problem, hence the change in sales price and limits done to address this.


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## Hobbit (Oct 23, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			Unfortunately Brian alcohol in Scotland is a bit of a problem, hence the change in sales price and limits done to address this.
		
Click to expand...

Its shocked me Patrick. If it's making a difference I'm all for it. I wouldn't say its endemic but it isn't a small problem.


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Its shocked me Patrick. If it's making a difference I'm all for it. I wouldn't say its endemic but it isn't a small problem.
		
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I'm not sure it will TBH, its a nice idea, but given the choice between a bottle of Bucky at Â£8 or so and a rent bills etc, the people who can least afford it will still on the whole go for the booze. I have 3 golfing friends who are prison officers   and i go drinking with them once a year at places i would not be dragged into on my own by a heard of buffalo. the sights you would not believe. 

Cheap Booze hasn't helped, but it will take a long time to breaks those habits.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2016)

Has anyone else noticed the Empress of Scotland is not wearing any clothes!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Only if you try not being a smartarse....
		
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It was my fault - I introduced the analogy/allegory.  Mea culpa.  I can also be a smartarse - I have to be careful


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			But, in the main, has the reduced limits only affected those that have a responsible attitude? On a personal level I'm genuinely shocked at the (open) levels of alcohol abuse up here. Middlesbrough isn't exactly a shining light in responsible drinking but, flippin' heck, Aberdeen has people falling over drunk every evening I've been in town. Quite often from early evening. It's a real eye opener.
		
Click to expand...

This is unfortunately very true.  My son commented on this the first time he went into a Glasgow city centre pub with a friend one weekday late afternoon. It was 5pm on an 'any-old' Thursday - he couldn't believe how pissed a lot of folk were - on tables singing and dancing.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was my fault - I introduced the analogy/allegory.  Mea culpa.  I can also be a smartarse - I have to be careful 

Click to expand...

Or extended metaphor...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Or extended metaphor... 

Click to expand...

extended beyond relevance...


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## delc (Oct 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Its shocked me Patrick. If it's making a difference I'm all for it. I wouldn't say its endemic but it isn't a small problem.
		
Click to expand...

If you lived in cold, damp, dark and generally horrible (in Winter anyway) Scotland, wouldn't you want to drink yourself stupid every night?!!!


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2016)

delc said:



			If you lived in cold, damp, dark and generally horrible (in Winter anyway) Scotland, wouldn't you want to drink yourself stupid every night?!!!  

Click to expand...


remember that next time your course is closed after heavy rain and a trolley ban in operation.... and Mine will be open Dry and can use a trolley. or in spring when its dark down there at 6pm and I'm out playing golf in bright sunshine


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

delc said:



			If you lived in cold, damp, dark and generally horrible (in Winter anyway) Scotland, wouldn't you want to drink yourself stupid every night?!!!  

Click to expand...

Really, we have had two days of rain since the end of August.
Burns and Rivers all bone dry. [Not Ed and Joan]
Golf courses and gardens look superb.
First light frost of the year last night.

Have you been listening to 'The Weather where You are'.:lol:
It follows 'The News Where You Are'.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

Nicola asked if she was undermining the UK position on the EU.

Replies,'How can I undermine something that does not exist.'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, we have had two days of rain since the end of August.
Burns and Rivers all bone dry. [Not Ed and Joan]
Golf courses and gardens look superb.
First light frost of the year last night.

Have you been listening to 'The Weather where You are'.:lol:
It follows 'The News Where You Are'.
		
Click to expand...

I have spent a lot of time in Glasgow this year and the weather has in general been excellent.


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## User62651 (Oct 24, 2016)

delc said:



			If you lived in cold, damp, dark and generally horrible (in Winter anyway) Scotland, wouldn't you want to drink yourself stupid every night?!!!  

Click to expand...

I'm surprised how crass and mildly offensive this post is, people choose to live where they live for a reason, dont assume we all want to live in the M25 corridor near St Albans, could think of little worse personally, but thats my choice, many if us enjoy winter too. By your reckoning all of Scandinavia is 'horrible' because they have long dark winters. What a daft post, has little Englander syndrome all over it.


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## delc (Oct 24, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			I'm surprised how crass and mildly offensive this post is, people choose to live where they live for a reason, dont assume we all want to live in the M25 corridor near St Albans, could think of little worse personally, but thats my choice, many if us enjoy winter too. By your reckoning all of Scandinavia is 'horrible' because they have long dark winters. What a daft post, has little Englander syndrome all over it.
		
Click to expand...

Whoosh!  I was only poking a bit of fun at my Scottish friends.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

delc said:



			Whoosh!  I was only poking a bit of fun at my Scottish friends. 

Click to expand...

Hilarious.


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hilarious.

Click to expand...

almost.... he has more Scottish Friends than he does English ones..... both of which is none:rofl:


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## delc (Oct 24, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			almost.... he has more Scottish Friends than he does English ones..... both of which is none:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

I have 265 Facebook friends, most of whom are also personal friends! Even includes a few Scottish folk!


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2016)

delc said:



			I have 265 Facebook friends, most of whom are also personal friends! Even includes a few Scottish folk!  

Click to expand...

Non from on here though, i suspect:rofl:


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## delc (Oct 24, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			Non from on here though, i suspect:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

A few golfing friends.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, we have had two days of rain since the end of August.
Burns and Rivers all bone dry. [Not Ed and Joan]
Golf courses and gardens look superb.
First light frost of the year last night.
		
Click to expand...


Abusing our planet and global warming has its positives then....


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Abusing our planet and global warming has its positives then....
		
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:rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Abusing our planet and global warming has its positives then....
		
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Ask the folk from Zomerzet and Cumbria, they would probably disagree.
Global warming seems to be good for Scotland though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2016)

I am mindful that the previous polls on here for Indyref1 and Brexit were spot on.
It looks like at the mo Scotland will bescraping in for independence


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am mindful that the previous polls on here for Indyref1 and Brexit were spot on.
It looks like at the mo Scotland will bescraping in for independence
		
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Do you mean YES scraping around for votes or just scraping it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 26, 2016)

Please support this poll.
Only got 5,000 sigs and needs a boost
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/english-referendum-on-scotlands-removal-from-union


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 26, 2016)

Wow, it has gone to 10,000 already, thank you all.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please support this poll.
Only got 5,000 sigs and needs a boost
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/english-referendum-on-scotlands-removal-from-union

Click to expand...

Shame....they have taken that poll down.
Might have something to do with an Independent England not being able to use the Â£

Anyway here is another one......click on map for a wee laugh.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/132687


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Shame....they have taken that poll down.
Might have something to do with an Independent England not being able to use the Â£

Anyway here is another one......click on map for a wee laugh.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/132687

Click to expand...

We still think you are a stupid Boy Doom.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			We still think you are a stupid Boy Doom. 

Click to expand...

Though the idea that rUK could kick Scotland out of the UK is rather stupid...and funny.

Though maybe that's the answer - England, NI and Wales have a referendum to leave the UK.  As that would mean leaving the EU - job done.  England, Wales and NI out of the EU and Scotland as the remainder of the UK is left in - being rUK (remainder UK)


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2016)

Is it stupid? If you are in a club you can either choose to leave or the other members can kick you out. It depends on the rule book of the club. 

It is mischief making. Whoever started that off clearly had a glint in their eye.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it stupid? If you are in a club you can either choose to leave or the other members can kick you out. It depends on the rule book of the club. 

It is mischief making. Whoever started that off clearly had a glint in their eye.
		
Click to expand...

I rather doubt Scotland could be licked out of the UK - but EWNI can leave the UK, so here's looking for EWNI to hold their independence referendum soon - leaving Scotland as the sole constiuent part of UK.  The Scottish government cancel Brexit and so UK/Scotland remains in the EU, and EWNI is out of the EU, and a new independent country called maybe - xUK (pronounced suck)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I rather doubt Scotland could be licked out of the UK - but EWNI can leave the UK, so here's looking for EWNI to hold their independence referendum soon - leaving Scotland as the sole constiuent part of UK.  The Scottish government cancel Brexit and so UK/Scotland remains in the EU, and EWNI is out of the EU, and a new independent country called maybe - xUK (pronounced suck)
		
Click to expand...

LOL - 'licked'


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2016)

I didn't suggest it should happen, just that it is not entirely stupid, depending on the rule book. Just as importantly, it will not happen as only Scotland wants to separate at the moment. The other three nations are happy with the current set up.

I love that scenario though, Swingit, worthy of Sir Humphrey.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I didn't suggest it should happen, just that it is not entirely stupid, depending on the rule book. Just as importantly, it will not happen as only Scotland wants to separate at the moment. The other three nations are happy with the current set up.

I love that scenario though, Swingit, worthy of Sir Humphrey.
		
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Don't you mean 'only some in Scotland wants to seperate'


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2016)

Pedants corner. With any decision there is always a "some" element as unless you are in North Korea there is rarely a 100% outcome. I shall rephrase, "only in Scotland are discussions regarding the potential of separation / departing taking place at the moment".


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LOL - 'licked'
		
Click to expand...

I did type something very smutty but managed to restrain myself from posting. I must be finally growing up or something...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2016)

For those that missed it, the earlier poll [now taken down] was for an Independent England.
There was some classic replies and loads of support from what would have been the new rUK.


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## dewsweeper (Oct 27, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I did type something very smutty but managed to restrain myself from posting. I must be finally growing up or something... 

Click to expand...

Shame.
This thread could have used a laugh.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2016)

dewsweeper said:



			Shame.
This thread could have used a laugh.
		
Click to expand...

I take it you missed the Independent England poll then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

dewsweeper said:



			Shame.
This thread could have used a laugh.
		
Click to expand...

Though I say so myself I do like the idea of EWNI having a referendum and becoming independent from the UK - and with leaving the UK, EWNI leave the EU - as desired by the EWNI electorate.  Meanwhile Scotland is left all on it's lonesome in the UK; hence becomes the Westminster government and can abandon Brexit - and so Scotland stays in the EU,  sorted!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I say so myself I do like the idea of EWNI having a referendum and becoming independent from the UK - and with leaving the UK, EWNI leave the EU - as desired by the EWNI electorate.  Meanwhile Scotland is left all on it's lonesome in the UK; hence becomes the Westminster government and can abandon Brexit - and so Scotland stays in the EU,  sorted!
		
Click to expand...

This sounds a little bit like the PM's cunning plan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This sounds a little bit like the PM's cunning plan.
		
Click to expand...

Thought you;d like it.  Covers all bases don't you think?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

I see Ms Jimmy is squirming today at her part in bringing the Scottish NHS to it's knees.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I see Ms Jimmy is squirming today at her part in bringing the Scottish NHS to it's knees.
		
Click to expand...

Well - my experience of NHS Scotland is that it provides an excellent service - and anecdotally I spoke with a 70yr old Glasgow resident of 4yrs - having moved from Lincolnshire.  Her experience was that NHS Scotland is streets ahead of NHS England.  No comparison she said.


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## Val (Oct 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it stupid? If you are in a club you can either choose to leave or the other members can kick you out. It depends on the rule book of the club. 

It is mischief making. Whoever started that off clearly had a glint in their eye.
		
Click to expand...

When you reads lots of casual racism comments along the lines of kick them out or get rid of them then yes it is stupid.


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## Val (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - my experience of NHS Scotland is that it provides an excellent service - and anecdotally I spoke with a 70yr old Glasgow resident of 4yrs - having moved from Lincolnshire.  Her experience was that NHS Scotland is streets ahead of NHS England.  No comparison she said.
		
Click to expand...

It's not the treatment that's the problem it's the rigmarole you have to go through to eventually get someone who might tell if you need treatment or not.

No joke, I called for an appointment to get my  tennis elbow looked at, you have to call between a 2 hour window which I did, I got an engaged tone 113 times till I got it ringing, I then went in a queue for 23 minutes and eventually got through. I was given an appointment for 4.15pm and was seen by the GP at 5.30pm. That is a shambles and indicative of many surgeries in my area.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Val said:



			It's not the treatment that's the problem it's the rigmarole you have to go through to eventually get someone who might tell if you need treatment or not.

No joke, I called for an appointment to get my  tennis elbow looked at, you have to call between a 2 hour window which I did, I got an engaged tone 113 times till I got it ringing, I then went in a queue for 23 minutes and eventually got through. I was given an appointment for 4.15pm and was seen by the GP at 5.30pm. That is a shambles and indicative of many surgeries in my area.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't sound that different to my experience of booking GP appointments down south.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - my experience of NHS Scotland is that it provides an excellent service - and anecdotally* I spoke with a 70yr old Glasgow resident of 4yrs - having moved from Lincolnshire.  Her experience was that NHS Scotland is streets ahead of NHS England*.  No comparison she said.
		
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Well if she says so then there cant be a problem 

Ruth seems to have her card marked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37789173


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - my experience of NHS Scotland is that it provides an excellent service - and anecdotally I spoke with a 70yr old Glasgow resident of 4yrs - having moved from Lincolnshire.  Her experience was that NHS Scotland is streets ahead of NHS England.  No comparison she said.
		
Click to expand...

Does she go down the same pub your mates go to that give you all the other duff info. 

Seriously though, prior to moving across to our Oil and Gas division I managed our healthcare team in Scotland for many years. It was an absolute gem of an example of how the NHS should be run. 

The mgt now is lacking control. Without a doubt frontline acute care is excellent but the finances are a mess and have been for about 4 years. Haven't a clue if that ties in with the SNP getting control...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Well if she says so then there cant be a problem 

Ruth seems to have her card marked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37789173

Click to expand...

I told you it was anecdotal - and the point was more the comparison that she made with NHS England, as both she and her 80yr old husband had experience of both.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Hobbit said:



*Does she go down the same pub your mates go to that give you all the other duff info*. 

Seriously though, prior to moving across to our Oil and Gas division I managed our healthcare team in Scotland for many years. It was an absolute gem of an example of how the NHS should be run. 

The mgt now is lacking control. Without a doubt frontline acute care is excellent but the finances are a mess and have been for about 4 years. Haven't a clue if that ties in with the SNP getting control...
		
Click to expand...

Nope - she was unloading her car outside her home in Dowanhill in Glasgow - and I just stopped for a chat about living in the area - 45mins later I had much of her life story


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 27, 2017)

Uncanny............


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Uncanny............

View attachment 21802

Click to expand...

Coffee - Keyboard.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 27, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Coffee - Keyboard.
		
Click to expand...


Bit harsh that.......likening Chewbacca to Sturgeon, and I don't think Hans Solo will be too pleased either


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 27, 2017)

Sorry - really not funny - and actually just rather childish and insulting to the Scottish parliament and Scottish electorate.


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## NWJocko (Jan 27, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - really not funny - and actually just rather childish and insulting to the Scottish parliament and Scottish electorate.
		
Click to expand...

Whether it's funny or not is down to individual sense of humour (made me smile).

I'd love to know why this is insulting to the Scottish electorate though and the parliament (outside of Ms Sturgeon herself)!?


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 27, 2017)

Go on then I'll bite, how is it insulting to the Scottish parliament and Scottish electorate? 

And why is it that you can post whatever you like about May, Cameron, Farage, Trump etc but as soon as someone puts up a light hearted mickey take of Queen Nicola you climb up on your high horse?


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## chippa1909 (Jan 27, 2017)

Humour is always good..


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Humour is always good..
View attachment 21813

Click to expand...

Thats quite good actually.  Wrong but funny :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Bit harsh that.......likening Chewbacca to Sturgeon, and I don't think Hans Solo will be too pleased either

Click to expand...

To be fair, only when he had a shave.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 27, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Humour is always good..
View attachment 21813

Click to expand...

How dare you post such a thing. It's childish and insulting to the UK parliament and UK electorate and the US government and US voters. Sorry, I came over all SiLH there for a minute. As you were. :thup:


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - really not funny - and actually just rather childish and insulting to the Scottish parliament and Scottish electorate.
		
Click to expand...

And who uses comments like May-witch? Get over yourself.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - really not funny - and actually just rather childish and insulting to the Scottish parliament and Scottish electorate.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but you have let yourself down there - badly.

It's humour


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 27, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - really not funny - and actually just rather childish and insulting to the Scottish parliament and Scottish electorate.
		
Click to expand...

I'm pleased that Spitting Image is no longer on. That would send you apoplectic.

Incidentally it really isn't insulting to the parliament or electorate. It's just humour.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 27, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Sturgeon is adamant that she will push for a 2nd referendum vote in Scotland so if it happens, what do you think the result will be?
		
Click to expand...

cant we have one to cut them loose it's like having a terrier at your ankles every time I hear about the scots.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 27, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			cant we have one to cut them loose it's like having a terrier at your ankles every time I hear about the scots.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you can kick us out but I guess you can have one for Englandshire to leave the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 27, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think you can kick us out but I guess you can have one for Englandshire to leave the UK.
		
Click to expand...


Excellent idea.


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## chippa1909 (Jan 27, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't think you can kick us out but I guess you can have one for Englandshire to leave the UK.
		
Click to expand...

We need a Like button for posts like this...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 27, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm pleased that Spitting Image is no longer on. That would send you apoplectic.

Incidentally it really isn't insulting to the parliament or electorate. It's just humour.
		
Click to expand...

A caricature puppet is OK.  And I might ask how you know it's not insulting.


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## NWJocko (Jan 27, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A caricature puppet is OK.  And I might ask how you know it's not insulting.
		
Click to expand...

And I might ask how you know it is insulting?


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## User62651 (Jan 27, 2017)

Politicians have to be thick skinned or they'll last 5 minutes, doubt it'll bother Nicola, she gets pelters from half of Scotland every day as well as most of England regularly. 
Devolved parliaments don't work especially when England doesn't have it's own parliament, was never going to work or be seen as fair but it's a compromise system driven by one huge partner and 3 small ones. I have an MSP and an MP, if I lived in England I'd only have an MP, not fair. Whole system is out of kilter and not working. Brexit has just exacerbated all this. No one's happy anywhere in the UK these days. Hate it.


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## chippa1909 (Jan 28, 2017)

Hey, this is quite funny too..


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A caricature puppet is OK.  And I might ask how you know it's not insulting.
		
Click to expand...

Anything can be seen as insulting if you really want it to be. If you want to go into Mary Whitehouse mode then life is going  be very stressful for you.

Political humour attacks all politicians, it is very even. Laugh it off, a chip on your shoulder at every criticism will weigh you down.

I used to work with an mp. Most have framed pictures of "insulting" pictures/cartoons of themselves on their office walls. Being able to laugh at yourself is an important part of life, certainly as a politician.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2017)

[h=1]â€œO, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"[/h]


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2017)

I see one of the leaders in the 2014 No campaign [and former Labour supporter] has just joined the SNP.
Alex Massie, The Record and JK Rowling also now supporting an independent Scotland. Whoever would have thunk that a few months ago.


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## Val (Jan 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see one of the leaders in the 2014 No campaign [and former Labour supporter] has just joined the SNP.
Alex Massie, The Record and JK Rowling also now supporting an independent Scotland. Whoever would have thunk that a few months ago.
		
Click to expand...

Where are you seeing this?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2017)

Val said:



			Where are you seeing this?
		
Click to expand...

In the writings/posts of said people.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see one of the leaders in the 2014 No campaign [and former Labour supporter] has just joined the SNP.
Alex Massie, The Record and JK Rowling also now supporting an independent Scotland. Whoever would have thunk that a few months ago.
		
Click to expand...

I'm calling BS on this, certainly as far as JK Rowling is concerned.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm calling BS on this, certainly as far as JK Rowling is concerned.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14578111.JK_Rowling__Scotland_will_see_independence_after_Brexit/

Perhaps more stating the bleedin obvious that supporting


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## Val (Jan 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14578111.JK_Rowling__Scotland_will_see_independence_after_Brexit/

Perhaps more stating the bleedin obvious that supporting

Click to expand...

In that article written in June BTW she says Scotland will see independence after Brexit, she doesn't once say she supports it, so maybe the bleedin obvious isn't quite so.

If you are going to post a link to back your claims at least post an accurate one


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14578111.JK_Rowling__Scotland_will_see_independence_after_Brexit/

Perhaps more stating the bleedin obvious that supporting

Click to expand...

Yip, as I thought - BS.

The headline isn't even what she said...


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## chippa1909 (Jan 28, 2017)

That feeling when after the eighth pina colada, you've sobered up to find you actually went through with the "Wee White Chapel" thing in Las Vegas....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			That feeling when after the eighth pina colada, you've sobered up to find you actually went through with the "Wee White Chapel" thing in Las Vegas....

View attachment 21819

Click to expand...

It's going to take a lot to beat this post in 2017 &#128513;&#128513;&#128588;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			[h=1]â€œO, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"[/h]
		
Click to expand...

Glad to see you are picking up some Burns.   Try reading a bit more and you'll learn about patriotic international socialism, and what it means for brotherhood and sisterhood beyond the borders of your own country.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Glad to see you are picking up some Burns.   Try reading a bit more and you'll learn about patriotic international socialism, and what it means for brotherhood and sisterhood beyond the borders of your own country.
		
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Picking up, PICKING UP!  I'll let you know I can recite the complete 'Address to the Haggis' and with an accent that has been vouched authentic by Scotsmen.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Glad to see you are picking up some Burns.   Try reading a bit more and you'll learn about patriotic international socialism, and what it means for brotherhood and sisterhood beyond the borders of your own country.
		
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Mmm, international socialism... remind me how much you bang on about Scotland, almost exclusively in terms of Brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, international socialism... remind me how much you bang on about Scotland, almost exclusively in terms of Brexit.
		
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Burns was a very patriotic international socialist - very different from a national socialist.


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Burns was a very patriotic international socialist - very different from a national socialist.
		
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And how does that answer the question I posed?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2017)

Good summary of where Scotland is at the moment by Grousebeater.
A long read but worth it.


https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/the-tartan-elephant/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And how does that answer the question I posed?
		
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Because Burns was a fervent patriot - but his patriotism was about pride in Scotland and the ability and need for Scots to self-improve.  But the self-improvement is not only for the benefit of Scots and Scotland.  Because the improvement is worthless and Scotland cannot become a better place unless at the same time it contributes as fully as it can internationally - caring as much for others; other nations and other peoples as much as it cares about itself and it's own.


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## delc (Jan 29, 2017)

I personally wouldn't begrudge the Scots another independence referendum at all. Last time they were told that leaving the UK meant also leaving the EU. Now that the UK is likely to leave the EU, this will happen anyway. I am sure that the EU would bend over backwards to accept Scotland as a member if the rest of the UK left.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good summary of where Scotland is at the moment by Grousebeater.
A long read but worth it.


https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/the-tartan-elephant/

Click to expand...

How embarrassing! So many scots with massive chips on their shoulders and rabid anti-English attitudes. This guy is completely deluded. The only thing he gets right is how ineffective the labour party has become.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 29, 2017)

delc said:



			I personally wouldn't begrudge the Scots another independence referendum at all. Last time they were told that leaving the UK meant also leaving the EU. Now that the UK is likely to leave the EU, this will happen anyway. I am sure that the EU would bend over backwards to accept Scotland as a member if the rest of the UK left.
		
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The Spanish would block it for starters. Next up, Scotland would be a taker rather than a contributor. Why would the EU bend over backwards to take in another country that takes out money rather than puts money in?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2017)

I can find no evidence that Scotland was told that voting to stay in the UK meant they would stay in the EU.  I keep hearing this argument being used but can anyone show a link that proves it was said


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## delc (Jan 29, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I can find no evidence that Scotland was told that voting to stay in the UK meant they would stay in the EU.  I keep hearing this argument being used but can anyone show a link that proves it was said
		
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That was definitely one of the arguments used to persuade the Scots to stay in the U.K. during the previous indyref. It was also argued that as an independent nation Scotland would not meet the criteria for joining the EU, or for trading in the Single Market.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 29, 2017)

delc said:



			That was definitely one of the arguments used to persuade the Scots to stay in the U.K. during the previous indyref. *It was also argued that as an independent nation Scotland would not meet the criteria for joining the EU*, or for trading in the Single Market.
		
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Currently they wouldn't. A country wishing to join has to have a budget deficit of less than 3% of GDP. Scotland has a deficit of between 8 and 10% depending on which figures you look at. To qualify for EU membership the Scottish government would have to make cuts >5% of their spending to achieve this, and to put that in perspective that amount is greater than the spending cuts the Tories are currently making that the SNP are complaining about.


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## MarkE (Jan 29, 2017)

delc said:



			I am sure that the EU would bend over backwards to accept Scotland as a member if the rest of the UK left.
		
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You jest surely? The last thing the eu want at the moment is another drain on their resources.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2017)

delc said:



			That was definitely one of the arguments used to persuade the Scots to stay in the U.K. during the previous indyref. It was also argued that as an independent nation Scotland would not meet the criteria for joining the EU, or for trading in the Single Market.
		
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I asked for some proof that it was said.


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## Craigg (Jan 30, 2017)

Hmmm. Just spotted this Poll. Is there a 'Don't Care' option?


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## Hobbit (Jan 30, 2017)

delc said:



			That was definitely one of the arguments used to persuade the Scots to stay in the U.K. during the previous indyref. It was also argued that as an independent nation Scotland would not meet the criteria for joining the EU, or for trading in the Single Market.
		
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Scotland had a budget deficit of over Â£9 billion and a GDP 2% worse than Greece. Not sure the EU would accept Scotland into the club. Andwould Scotland be willing to give budgetary control of the level Greece experiences to Germany?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked for some proof that it was said.
		
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http://www.snp.org/broken_promises_by_tories_and_no_campaign_since_indyref

Try looking at the Better Together stuff as well.
There is also promise from Ruth Davidson, loads of stuff really.
Just a couple of clicks away if you could be bothered to look.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.snp.org/broken_promises_by_tories_and_no_campaign_since_indyref

Try looking at the Better Together stuff as well.
There is also promise from Ruth Davidson, loads of stuff really.
Just a couple of clicks away if you could be bothered to look.
		
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But that's not proof it was said is it.  I have looked on the net and can find no statement where it was promised.  I am believing it is spin by the SNP.


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## User62651 (Jan 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			But that's not proof it was said is it.  I have looked on the net and can find no statement where it was promised.  I am believing it is spin by the SNP.
		
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I dont think there were any promises as just about everything claimed on the Yes and No side was speculative and of the future at that time so you couldn't make that a promise but Cameron said it, Ruth Davidson said it and the whole Better Together campaign said it and wrote it repeatedly via twitter, a No campaign leaflet posted to all Scottish households and other outlets. Huge misjudgement by Cameron and Davidson back in 2014 as UK EU membership was seen as settled then - any EU referendum was a long shot and a Leave vote was even more of a long shot. They didn't even think an EU ref would come up as no 2015 GE Tory majority was expected. Rest is history.

It is possible leverage for the SNP position but I don't believe the SNP will attract more votes because of this, Scots and non-Scots living here will want to see what comes of Brexit imo before isolating ourselves further by leaving UK with no guarantee of EU membership for years. Position in 5 years time may be very different but with Labour in bits all we can hope for is a Libdem bounce back and hopefully coalition in 2020.
For me Scotland voted in 2014 to stay in UK and as part of a UK vote we voted to leave the EU so need to accept EU ref was a UK wide vote. Try telling that to rabid nationalists though. 

The Brexit/EU thing is a big deal but it was one of many issues in the 2014 Indyref, not the primary one either at the time. SNP jumping on it for possible gains, that's what politicial parties do.

Think Ruth Davidson has been weakened badly by the EU ref result, seen and heard far less of her since last Junes vote where on the tv debates she was riding high and was looking like a future Westminster Tory big gun. She'll be back though.


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## Hobbit (Jan 30, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.snp.org/broken_promises_by_tories_and_no_campaign_since_indyref

Try looking at the Better Together stuff as well.
There is also promise from Ruth Davidson, loads of stuff really.
Just a couple of clicks away if you could be bothered to look.
		
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Without a doubt there are elements of truth in there, big elements, but the spin put on it and an awful lot of being circumspect with the truth really does spoil the argument.

The threat of taking the naval ship building from the Clyde was very much intimated, as was the threat of if Scotland leaves the UK it will be leaving the EU.

However, where I really contest the article is in the presumption of a growing support for a second indy ref. Andrew Marr quoted a raft of stats a couple of weeks ago that showed the % for pretty much hasn't changed in the last two years.

The SNP are using the Brexit result as a vehicle to promote indy II, and are being very disingenuous with their spin.

But don't worry, I'll be voting out...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2017)

SNP going to change their position on EU membership for a Indy Scot - policy will be to remain out of the EU but negotiate access to the Single Market on the Norway model.  Pragmatic change of policy as one third of Indy YES votes would stay out of the EU.


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## User62651 (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			SNP going to change their position on EU membership for a Indy Scot - policy will be to remain out of the EU but negotiate access to the Single Market on the Norway model.  Pragmatic change of policy as one third of Indy YES votes would stay out of the EU.
		
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Is the Norway EEA model not all but in the EU except in name? They contribute, they have free movement of people, access to markets etc.

SNP are dynamic if nothing else, try one route, if dead end, try another!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			SNP going to change their position on EU membership for a Indy Scot - policy will be to remain out of the EU but negotiate access to the Single Market on the Norway model.  Pragmatic change of policy as one third of Indy YES votes would stay out of the EU.
		
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And what about access to their largest single market.


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## Paperboy (Jan 30, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			The threat of taking the naval ship building from the Clyde was very much intimated, as was the threat of if Scotland leaves the UK it will be leaving the EU.
		
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If they had won they would have lost the naval ship's. As part of the contract states they have to be built in the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			And what about access to their largest single market.
		
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Scotland would pay for access to the single market and will accept free movement but will not be in the customs union (like Norway) - and by not being in the customs union Scotland will be able to form trade agreements with the UK.

I think that is the idea.  Let's see when the new policy is unveiled.


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## Val (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Scotland would pay for access to the single market and will accept free movement but will not be in the customs union (like Norway) - and by not being in the customs union Scotland will be able to form trade agreements with the UK.

I think that is the idea.  Let's see when the new policy is unveiled.
		
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Sounds good, lets pay for an extra agreement to trade with our largest market when right now we have no need to


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2017)

Val said:



			Sounds good, lets pay for an extra agreement to trade with our largest market when right now we have no need to 

Click to expand...

Well being in the UK it seems quite possible that Scotland will have to pay for access to the single market in any case.


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## Val (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well being in the UK it seems quite possible that Scotland will have to pay for access to the single market in any case.
		
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And being out of the UK they'd have to pay access to the single market also, so 2 payments instead of 1.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2017)

Val said:



			And being out of the UK they'd have to pay access to the single market also, so 2 payments instead of 1.
		
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Sorry - don't get that.  Scotland would pay to access the single market - what is the other payment?


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 30, 2017)

I assume that the suggestion is that Scotland would have to pay for access to the rUK market.


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## Val (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - don't get that.  Scotland would pay to access the single market - what is the other payment?
		
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To access it's biggest market, the remainder of the UK


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - don't get that.  Scotland would pay to access the single market - what is the other payment?
		
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Of course there would be the potential trade restrictions, tariffs on certain items and border controls to their largest market by far.  I think this points out that the Scottish Governments current attitude towards their remaining in the EU single market is an exercise in promoting Scottish independence and nothing to do with what is in the best interest of Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course there would be the potential trade restrictions, tariffs on certain items and border controls to their largest market by far.  I think this points out that the Scottish Governments current attitude towards their remaining in the EU single market is an exercise in promoting Scottish independence and nothing to do with what is in the best interest of Scotland.
		
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The Scottish electorate will decide whether or not the Scottish government promotion of Scottish Independence is in the best interest of Scotland.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Scottish electorate will decide whether or not the Scottish government promotion of Scottish Independence is in the best interest of Scotland.
		
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Did I suggest they wouldn't?   I said it was an exercise in promoting Scottish Independence.


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## Hobbit (Jan 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Scottish electorate will decide whether or not the Scottish government promotion of Scottish Independence is in the best interest of Scotland.
		
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:thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Did I suggest they wouldn't?   I said it was an exercise in promoting Scottish Independence.
		
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You said:




			I think this points out that ...nothing to do with what is in the best interest of Scotland
		
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I simply pointed out that the Scottish electorate are fully aware of what the SNP are up to and will judge them accordingly.  They are fully aware that the SNP think that independence is that which is in the best interests of Scotland


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because Burns was a fervent patriot - but his patriotism was about pride in Scotland and the ability and need for Scots to self-improve.  But the self-improvement is not only for the benefit of Scots and Scotland.  Because the improvement is worthless and Scotland cannot become a better place unless at the same time it contributes as fully as it can internationally - caring as much for others; other nations and other peoples as much as it cares about itself and it's own.
		
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Interesting article by a previously solid Indyref1 NO voter who post-Brexit and as things progress has changed his mind - and the article concludes

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence-is-_b_12512554.html

_Scottish independence is now the last redoubt behind which everyone across the UK who believes in human solidarity, internationalism, and a multicultural society must gather to stem the rising tide of Brexit poison that threatens to drown us all._

I suspect his view may well have since strengthened as we head towards a cliff-edge Brexit - without any clue how high the cliff is and whether or not there are rocks at the base of it.


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You said:



*I simply pointed out that the Scottish electorate are fully aware of what the SNP are up to and will judge them accordingly.  They are fully aware that the SNP think that independence is that which is in the best interests of Scotland*

Click to expand...




I guess you have a higher opinion of the Scottish voter than you do of the UK as a whole since you seem to believe that those who voted 'out' are intellectually challenged and you'd rather we ignored the referendum result


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2017)

drdel said:



			[/B]


I guess you have a higher opinion of the Scottish voter than you do of the UK as a whole since you seem to believe that those who voted 'out' are intellectually challenged and you'd rather we ignored the referendum result
		
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No - as usual I am being deliberately misrepresented.  I have said that some who voted _Leave _were misinformed (by others) and that as a result their decision was - imo - misguided.  Of course I think they were misguided - I voted to _Remain_.  Me saying that about some _Leave _voters does not equate one little bit with them being 'intellectually challenged'.  As usual those like me who state such an opinion have it twisted to fit with the _Leave _camps narrative that deflects and reflects any questions, observations or indeed crtiticisms back on Remain.

So for example we have the ludicrous situation where many who voted are now saying that *of course *they knew that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market - because the *Remain* camp told them so.  But this is so Orwellian that Winston Smith would be proud - re-writing history to fit with the current situation where we find UK is going to *have* to leave the SM - which leaders of the _Leave _Campaign said needn't happen.  Because, lest we forget, the _Leave_ campaign told as endlessly that all this about having to leave the SM was all just part of _Project Fear_ - and just a load of nonsense - not to be believed.  Yet today it is what is being put forward as evidence that all Leavers knew we'd have to leave the SM.

Utterly bizarre.

Leavers misinformed and misguided? - on many things YES.  'intellectually challenged', 'stupid', thick'? - NO.

And I don't want the referendum result ignored - yet another misrepresentation.  Do I want us to Remain in the EU? - YES, but the only way I would want that to happen would be on the basis of a referendum on the divorce agreement and future relations with the EU.

And as far as the IndyRef - at least the Scottish electorate had a 600 page YES manifesto to debate the detail of.  The debate was therefore informed by that manifesto - and the BT campaign could research counter arguments to what was laid out in detail in that document.  This at least made an informed debate possible - though much of it was still emotional. At least the information was there.  For the EU referendum there was very little of this nature provided and hence the debate was I fear largely uninformed.  After all as we heard - who needed experts with facts.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2017)

PM tells Wee Angus in HoC that Scotland voting for independence will take it out of the EU......[I blame jet lag


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - as usual I am being deliberately misrepresented.  I have said that some who voted _Leave _were misinformed (by others) and that as a result their decision was - imo - misguided.  Of course I think they were misguided - I voted to _Remain_.  Me saying that about some _Leave _voters does not equate one little bit with them being 'intellectually challenged'.  As usual those like me who state such an opinion have it twisted to fit with the _Leave _camps narrative that deflects and reflects any questions, observations or indeed crtiticisms back on Remain.

So for example we have the ludicrous situation where many who voted are now saying that *of course *they knew that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market - because the *Remain* camp told them so.  But this is so Orwellian that Winston Smith would be proud - re-writing history to fit with the current situation where we find UK is going to *have* to leave the SM - which leaders of the _Leave _Campaign said needn't happen.  Because, lest we forget, the _Leave_ campaign told as endlessly that all this about having to leave the SM was all just part of _Project Fear_ - and just a load of nonsense - not to be believed.  Yet today it is what is being put forward as evidence that all Leavers knew we'd have to leave the SM.

Utterly bizarre.

Leavers misinformed and misguided? - on many things YES.  'intellectually challenged', 'stupid', thick'? - NO.

And I don't want the referendum result ignored - yet another misrepresentation.  Do I want us to Remain in the EU? - YES, but the only way I would want that to happen would be on the basis of a referendum on the divorce agreement and future relations with the EU.

And as far as the IndyRef - at least the Scottish electorate had a 600 page YES manifesto to debate the detail of.  The debate was therefore informed by that manifesto - and the BT campaign could research counter arguments to what was laid out in detail in that document.  This at least made an informed debate possible - though much of it was still emotional. At least the information was there.  For the EU referendum there was very little of this nature provided and hence the debate was I fear largely uninformed.  After all as we heard - who needed experts with facts.
		
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I agree that all Leavers were lied too but so were all of Remain voters. So many (alternative) facts were supplied by both sides... I think its sad that you don't incorporate that in your ruminations. You're blinded by your desire for a particular outcome, one I share, but I'm open to the fact that both sides were disingenuous.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I agree that all Leavers were lied too but so were all of Remain voters. So many (alternative) facts were supplied by both sides... I think its sad that you don't incorporate that in your ruminations. You're blinded by your desire for a particular outcome, one I share, but I'm open to the fact that both sides were disingenuous.
		
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But the _Remain _camp did not lie on this specific aspect - and it is a very crucial one - almost *the* most crucial one.  My point is that today _Leave _voters are saying they *knew *that the UK would *have *to leave the SM - because the *Remain* camp told them.  

This is nuts - but I am hearing it all the time.  *Before *the vote _Leave _ were saying that that was rubbish - that it was_ Project Fear_, so that cannot now be used by _Leave_ votes as evidence that they knew.  They are re-writing history to fit with the fact that we are having to leave the SM - and it doesn't seem we have much option give our position on immigration.

Anyway - I have strayed this into the Art50 discussion - apologies.

My point on IndyRef cf EURef was that for the former there was a documented statement of YES case on which debate could be based and revolve.  And because of that I think the IndyRef was relatively well informed - whereas the EURef debate was subject to lies and disingenuity on both sides as there was nothing substantive produced by either side - but especially the Leave side - on which debate could be based.


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## Val (Feb 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			PM tells Wee Angus in HoC that Scotland voting for independence will take it out of the EU......[I blame jet lag

Click to expand...

Of course it does, why wouldn't it? Scotland is out of the EU with or without Independence


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2017)

Val said:



			Of course it does, why wouldn't it? Scotland is out of the EU with or without Independence
		
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How do you know that?


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## Val (Feb 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How do you know that?
		
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The UK has voted to leave so Scotland is out. Scotland votes for independence and leaves the U.K. Why would it be part of the EU when as a country on its own it has no EU membership?

It's not that hard really.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting article by a previously solid Indyref1 NO voter who post-Brexit and as things progress has changed his mind - and the article concludes

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence-is-_b_12512554.html

_Scottish independence is now the last redoubt behind which everyone across the UK who believes in human solidarity, internationalism, and a multicultural society must gather to stem the rising tide of Brexit poison that threatens to drown us all._

I suspect his view may well have since strengthened as we head towards a cliff-edge Brexit - without any clue how high the cliff is and whether or not there are rocks at the base of it.
		
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Hmm, a nice balanced view there.    That is a very bigoted statement of the first order and he should be ashamed of it.  I can guess what you would be saying if a similar was made from the other side of the debate.

P.S.  You are appearing to become somewhat paranoid and increasingly bitter in your posts.  Are you alright?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2017)

Went out with my walking group after missing few weeks.
Surprised how many were really angry about Brexit and Trump.

Normally politics is a big no with us.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point on IndyRef cf EURef was that for the former there was a documented statement of YES case on which debate could be based and revolve.  And because of that I think the IndyRef was relatively well informed - whereas the EURef debate was subject to lies and disingenuity on both sides as there was nothing substantive produced by either side - but especially the Leave side - on which debate could be based.
		
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So you are saying it's ok for Remain to lie? You laugh it off as though it was inconsequential. Sorry but that is very disappointing. How can you have credibility if you won't have a balanced view of the lies both sides spouted ad nauseum.

As for a well informed debate in favour of YES in IndyRef 1. I made a point of reading the white paper drawn up in support of out. The budget had a hole in it that any halfwit could drive a horse and cart through. That hole was circa Â£10 billion. And what was the deficit last year? Â£9.2 billion.

Your the one writing alternative facts almost every time you post.


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## Fish (Feb 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Went out with my walking group after missing few weeks.
Surprised how many were really angry about Brexit and Trump.

Normally politics is a big no with us.
		
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Who was the other person you were walking with &#128540;


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2017)

Fish said:



			Who was the other person you were walking with &#63004;
		
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His left foot.


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## Leftie (Feb 2, 2017)

I must admit that I haven't bothered to read most of this thread as, to be quite honest, I couldn't now give a stuff what Scotland do so this may be out of context in which case I'm happy to be shot down - but, this did catch my eye from Hobbit's reply quoting Hogie  ......

" whereas the EURef debate was subject to lies and disingenuity *(sp)* on both sides as there was nothing substantive produced by either side - but especially the Leave side "

If there was *nothing* substantive produced by *either* side, how can the Leave side be special in producing more nothing??   Come on Hogie, I thought that you were better than that. 

Just thought I would be a bit pedantic before Foxy rode into town. :ears:


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2017)

This lady speaks for me.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-mp-parodies-trainspotting-speech-in-brexit-debate-1-4355521


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## Val (Feb 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This lady speaks for me.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-mp-parodies-trainspotting-speech-in-brexit-debate-1-4355521

Click to expand...

So was her speech inspirational or childish?

Her content may or may not be relevant but her delivery is shocking IMO


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## IanM (Feb 2, 2017)

I am surprised that with both the EU and Scottish referendums (-enda? )  the economic debates seem to have been more prominent than the constitutional ones.   Where in my head, I've thought "sovereignty first, then make the economics work on the back of that.  But each to their own. 

Hence, what I don't get is why the SNP are so keen to rid themselves of Westminster, in favour of an increasingly Federal Brussels.  I thought that was probably because the EU has traditionally been "more left of centre" than Westminster, as much of Scotland has traditionally been.   But, I would have thought that the EU is desperately short (even with the UK in) of countries who are "net contributors" so a devolved Scotland staying in the EU, with the rest of the UK "out" would not be too attractive to Brussels at all.  

And as an Englishman who lives in Wales, a Scottish perspective on this is interesting


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## DCB (Feb 2, 2017)

IanM said:



			Hence, what I don't get is why the SNP are so keen to rid themselves of Westminster, in favour of an increasingly Federal Brussels.  I thought that was probably because the EU has traditionally been "more left of centre" than Westminster, as much of Scotland has traditionally been.
		
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I've never been able to understand that one either. If we are going for Independance and not wanting to be told what to do by Westminster, why do we want to be beholding to the European Parliament and all the joy that that brings.


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## User62651 (Feb 2, 2017)

DCB said:



			I've never been able to understand that one either. If we are going for Independance and not wanting to be told what to do by Westminster, why do we want to be beholding to the European Parliament and all the joy that that brings.
		
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Well there are 27 other nations presently joined up and several others jumping at the bit to get in so the same question could be levelled at any of them. They are all independent states but share some of their power with the mutually beneficial cooperative that is the EU (being mutually beneficial is not exclusively about money either). Scotland is not an independent state and many would like it to be, moreso in light of Brexit. 

UK and EU are very different Unions.

By majority verdict England/Wales think they can do better for themselves out and in so doing are taking Scotland and Northern Ireland with them unwillingly. Time will tell on that and who knows it might be the right call despite what all the experts tell us but what do they know, they're only experts! One things for sure it won't stengthen the UK union one bit.

Worrying times.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2017)

Val said:



			So was her speech inspirational or childish?

Her content may or may not be relevant but her delivery is shocking IMO
		
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Neither really....more truthful than anything else on the day that the UK parliament probably instigated the break up the UK.
The script does read a bit better than her speech though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2017)

Fish said:



			Who was the other person you were walking with &#128540;
		
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About 40 in the GROUP.
Generally 15 to 20 on the weekly walks. Mainly retired and a good cross section of views/social/economic status.
Basically a good sounding board.
As I said earlier, wisely we never talk politics so I was quite surprised at the anger vented towards Brexit and Trump.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			So you are saying it's ok for Remain to lie? You laugh it off as though it was inconsequential. Sorry but that is very disappointing. How can you have credibility if you won't have a balanced view of the lies both sides spouted ad nauseum.

As for a well informed debate in favour of YES in IndyRef 1. I made a point of reading the white paper drawn up in support of out. The budget had a hole in it that any halfwit could drive a horse and cart through. That hole was circa Â£10 billion. And what was the deficit last year? Â£9.2 billion.

Your the one writing alternative facts almost every time you post.
		
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I know the white paper had holes in it.  That is the point.  There was a basis for a discussion and disagreement.  And as far as in the EURef Remain lying - well actually I don't put inaccurate predictions of what might happen in the same basket as lies.  But I didn't want that I consider Leave to have lied and Remain to have voiced worse case predictions to detract from the fact that for IndyRef there was a comprehensive (if perhaps containing huge flaws) published - and on which the YES/NO vote could reference.  EURef had nothing of that sort - and so we ended in the land of 'what does Leaving the EU vote actually mean'


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know the white paper had holes in it.  That is the point.  There was a basis for a discussion and disagreement.  And as far as in the EURef Remain lying - well actually I don't put inaccurate predictions of what might happen in the same basket as lies.  But I didn't want that I consider Leave to have lied and Remain to have voiced worse case predictions to detract from the fact that for IndyRef there was a comprehensive (if perhaps containing huge flaws) published - and on which the YES/NO vote could reference.  EURef had nothing of that sort - and so we ended in the land of 'what does Leaving the EU vote actually mean'
		
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Why are you bringing the EU ref into this thread?


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## chippa1909 (Feb 2, 2017)

DCB said:



			I've never been able to understand that one either. If we are going for Independance and not wanting to be told what to do by Westminster, why do we want to be beholding to the European Parliament and all the joy that that brings.
		
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Remember that Scotland can't do one single thing that Westminster can't overrule. Including dissolving our parliament.

Can the European Parliament do that?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Remember that Scotland can't do one single thing that Westminster can't overrule. Including dissolving our parliament.

Can the European Parliament do that?
		
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Didn't realise that. Got an example of something they've overruled?


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## chippa1909 (Feb 2, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Didn't realise that. Got an example of something they've overruled?
		
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I never said they had. I said it is within their power to do so if they wish.


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## chippa1909 (Feb 2, 2017)

Remember that power devolved is power retained.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			I never said they had. I said it is within their power to do so if they wish.
		
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Pretty specious argument then. Hasn't happened, won't happen.


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## chippa1909 (Feb 2, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Pretty specious argument then. Hasn't happened, won't happen.
		
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Ha! You place a remarkable amount of trust in the Tories.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Ha! You place a remarkable amount of trust in the Tories.
		
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No, I just can't stand the constant agitating and moaning about nothing from the SNP and indy fans. You're plumbing new depths with this one though!


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## Old Skier (Feb 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			PM tells Wee Angus in HoC that Scotland voting for independence will take it out of the EU......[I blame jet lag

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Repeating what Wee Angus has already been told by the Fuhrer of the EU.


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## chippa1909 (Feb 2, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			No, I just can't stand the constant agitating and moaning about nothing from the SNP and indy fans. You're plumbing new depths with this one though![/QUOTE

Really? "This one" was clarified in last weeks Supreme Court ruling. I wouldn't describe that as plumbing the depths!

I'd say it's quite a biggie.
		
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## FairwayDodger (Feb 2, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Really? "This one" was clarified in last weeks Supreme Court ruling. I wouldn't describe that as plumbing the depths!

I'd say it's quite a biggie.
		
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It's nothing, the latest in a long line of imaginary grievances.


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## chippa1909 (Feb 2, 2017)

Val said:



			So was her speech inspirational or childish?

Her content may or may not be relevant but her delivery is shocking IMO
		
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Delivery? Really?

Gaun yersel Professor Higgins..:rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Why are you bringing the EU ref into this thread?
		
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Because some posts back another poster commented against something I had posted about the IndyRef by bringing in a comparison with the EU referendum.  I've just been outlining the difference in the debates held as I see it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			I never said they had. I said it is within their power to do so if they wish.
		
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Related to this - but in the other direction.

The Sewel convention was supposed to enable the Scottish Government to have a direct veto on legislation impacting upon devolved matters.  But in the case of Art50 the Supreme Court ruled that the Sewel Convention did not apply - even although it is very clear that Brexit will have a significant impact on many devolved powers and the way things are at the moment there is nothing now stopping Brexit happening.   I am not sure what will happen if there is a parliamentary vote at the end of the negotiation period on the terms of the divorce and future relationship. And will the Scottish Government be able to veto the Great Repeal Bill as it will impact upon devolved powers.

From

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38731693


_In July 1998, the UK government announced that a convention would be established so that Westminster would not normally legislate on devolved matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly.

The devolution settlement of that time meant that power was handed to the three nations, but sovereignty was retained by Westminster.

This undertaking was subsequently expanded, and now consent is also required for legislation on reserved matters if it would alter the powers of the devolved parliaments and ministers.

A new sub-section of the Scotland Act 2016 clearly stated: "It is recognised that the parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."_

But I note that it is only _*not normally*_

I actually think that the Sewel Convention _should _now prevent Westminster from dissolving the Scottish Parliament as clearly that would have an impact upon the devolved powers.  But it may still be open to do so.


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## Old Skier (Feb 2, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because some posts back another poster commented against something I had posted about the IndyRef by bringing in a comparison with the EU referendum.  I've just been outlining the difference in the debates held as I see it.
		
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The majority have commented against most things you post.


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## Val (Feb 2, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Delivery? Really?

Gaun yersel Professor Higgins..:rofl:
		
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And what is this cryptic message meant to mean?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			The majority have commented against most things you post.
		
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That is either because I am popular or irritating 

Yes - I know...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Delivery? Really?

Gaun yersel Professor Higgins..:rofl:
		
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:lol: The politicians in Spain say Catalonia will remain..ta ra ra ra ra


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol: The politicians in Spain say Catalonia will remain..ta ra ra ra ra

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Boom te ay!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2017)

6% swing for Independence vote in first poll after May's hard Brexit speech.


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## Val (Feb 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			6% swing for Independence vote in first poll after May's hard Brexit speech.
		
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So is that now above 40%?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2017)

Art50 and EU (that's just for @Sweep  )


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2017)

Val said:



			So is that now above 40%?
		
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49% [+3]
51% [-3]


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## ger147 (Feb 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			49% [+3]
51% [-3]
		
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That's the figures after the Don't Knows are removed. What are the actual figures? Particularly interested in the Don't Know %...


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 8, 2017)

Doon, what gap do you think the SNP will want before they look for another vote? 5 points consistently over a 3-5 month period or will they want more?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Doon, what gap do you think the SNP will want before they look for another vote? 5 points consistently over a 3-5 month period or will they want more?
		
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I don't think they will go until 2020/21.
If the Tories/UKIP alliance look like winning the next election it will be an absolute shoe in for Independence.
By then I think the Yes vote should have a consistent 5-10 point lead.

The Naw vote is heavily age related......the over 65's are the strongest Unionist group whilst the under 40's are the weakest.
The joke is that a couple of cold winters will be enough.

This poll was a ball breaker........quite a few Yes/No voters will have changed sides because of Brexit. 
38% of Scots who voted were in favour of Leave.

IMVHO of course


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## ger147 (Feb 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think they will go until 2020/21.
If the Tories/UKIP alliance look like winning the next election it will be an absolute shoe in for Independence.
By then I think the Yes vote should have a consistent 5-10 point lead.

The Naw vote is heavily age related......the over 65's are the strongest Unionist group whilst the under 40's are the weakest.
The joke is that a couple of cold winters will be enough.

This poll was a ball breaker........quite a few Yes/No voters will have changed sides because of Brexit. 
38% of Scots who voted were in favour of Leave.

IMVHO of course

Click to expand...

Have you got the actual figures without the Don't Knows removed?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Have you got the actual figures without the Don't Knows removed?
		
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Had a search but cant find it.
Britain Elects site.

I did here some 'expert' say that the folk who changed sides more or less balanced out and that Labour seem to be leaking loads of supporters to SNP/Tories in equal numbers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Had a search but cant find it.
Britain Elects site.

I did here some 'expert' say that the folk who changed sides more or less balanced out and that Labour seem to be leaking loads of supporters to SNP/Tories in equal numbers.
		
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This is the website I use

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/quest...-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask#line

No: 45%
Yes: 43%
DK: 10%
DNR: 3%


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## NWJocko (Feb 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is the website I use

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/quest...-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask#line

No: 45%
Yes: 43%
DK: 10%
DNR: 3%
		
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Interesting this (albeit I don't follow regularly and with the usual caveats around use of polls) but I expected that Yes would be at least level by now.  Only based on what I see/read and my feeling post Brexit that it would be a shoe in I guess but I am surprised (pleasantly ).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			Interesting this (albeit I don't follow regularly and with the usual caveats around use of polls) but I expected that Yes would be at least level by now.  Only based on what I see/read and my feeling post Brexit that it would be a shoe in I guess but I am surprised (pleasantly ).
		
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What the pollsters will say is that they are level given the bounds of uncertainty they work to - which I believe is always 2%

But as you say - usual caveat in respect of polls full stop.


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## Hobbit (Feb 8, 2017)

I think a hard Brexit coupled with the economic dip around the exit time could create that perfect storm for independence.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I think a hard Brexit coupled with the economic dip around the exit time could create that perfect storm for independence.
		
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Add into the mix a Labour Party under Corbyn still in a mess - and UKIP taking Labour and Tory seats in bye-elections.  The Scottish electorate may well simply ask themselves what likelihood anything but a Tory Westminster government for the foreseeable future...2020, 2025, 2030?  Incredible as that might seem.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Add into the mix a Labour Party under Corbyn still in a mess - and UKIP taking Labour and Tory seats in bye-elections.  The Scottish electorate may well simply ask themselves what likelihood anything but a Tory Westminster government for the foreseeable future...2020, 2025, 2030?  Incredible as that might seem.
		
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That would still be a better option for Scotland than the wastelands they would inhabit if they went it alone.


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## IanM (Feb 8, 2017)

I wonder if the SNP have defined what a Leave referendum result actually means?  Is it a hard or soft *Joxit?*  Will everyone get a vote on the terms of deal?  Can we comment on the outcome of the deal before a result or any negotiation.  If you cant see a link between* Joxit *and Trump you must be daft!  Does your vote on a ScotRef give an indication of your love or hatred for Trump or tennis or Cornish Pasties?   Surely a Leave Vote means a world wide haggis shortage, or is that a Remain outcome .... can a lady from British Guyana who now has UK citizenship go to court to stop it... or does the UK citizen have to be a Scot to be allowed to take court action ?  Can Sean Connery remember where Scotland is?  Should I boycott St Andrews Old Course cos the 1st Minister is racist and sexist against Englishmen?

Gosh................................... it's all so complicated.


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## MarkE (Feb 8, 2017)

If the UK is at risk of splitting, I think we should all get a vote. The outcome would'nt be in doubt then.:clap:


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## Fish (Feb 8, 2017)

IanM said:



			I wonder if the SNP have defined what a Leave referendum result actually means?  Is it a hard or soft *Joxit?*  Will everyone get a vote on the terms of deal?  Can we comment on the outcome of the deal before a result or any negotiation.  If you cant see a link between* Joxit *and Trump you must be daft!  Does your vote on a ScotRef give an indication of your love or hatred for Trump or tennis or Cornish Pasties?   Surely a Leave Vote means a world wide haggis shortage, or is that a Remain outcome .... can a lady from British Guyana who now has UK citizenship go to court to stop it... or does the UK citizen have to be a Scot to be allowed to take court action ?  Can Sean Connery remember where Scotland is?  Should I boycott St Andrews Old Course cos the 1st Minister is racist and sexist against Englishmen?

Gosh................................... it's all so complicated.
		
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&#128514;&#128514;&#128077;


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 9, 2017)

MarkE said:



			If the UK is at risk of splitting, I think we should all get a vote. The outcome would'nt be in doubt then.:clap:
		
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'We' welcome your support of the SNP.


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## User62651 (Feb 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That would still be a better option for Scotland than the wastelands they would inhabit if they went it alone.
		
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If you'd been around then I expect you'd have said same thing that about every single former colony of the British Empire that has struck out on its own over the last 100+ years including Ireland which has some parallels with Scotland? There can be difficulties but transitions were/are made over time.
Peoples adapt and maybe aren't as wealthy as they might have been staying but you dont see any calls for Ireland or any other former colony to rejoin the 'Empire'. Although the UK is a Union and Scotland is not a colony, for many it feels like it is.
Times move on, UK is not working as a Union politically, I feel change is inevitable, it's a generational and confidence thing. That is not anti English which seems to be a convenient retort, just natural progress for many/perhaps soon to be most Scots and other people living in Scotland (including many of the 500k English people up here)....imo.


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## chippa1909 (Feb 9, 2017)

MarkE said:



			If the UK is at risk of splitting, I think we should all get a vote. The outcome would'nt be in doubt then.:clap:
		
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I would love to see the citizens of Littletrumpland get a vote...


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2017)

maxfli65;1648749
Times move on said:
			
		


			I think you'll find most English people would not argue with anything you have stated. Self determination is important and few would argue with Scotlands right to go it alone if that is the will of the people. No one from England is holding Scotland back. Unfortunately many of the arguments, not yours, end in anti English sentiments which just annoy the heck out of people south of the border. As with many discussions the sensible comments get lost in the rhetoric and the insults fly.
		
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## User62651 (Feb 9, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you'll find most English people would not argue with anything you have stated. Self determination is important and few would argue with Scotlands right to go it alone if that is the will of the people. No one from England is holding Scotland back. Unfortunately many of the arguments, not yours, end in anti English sentiments which just annoy the heck out of people south of the border. As with many discussions the sensible comments get lost in the rhetoric and the insults fly.
		
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Agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments, seems like insults get reciprocated in equal measure.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			I would love to see the citizens of Littletrumpland get a vote...
		
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 You forgot to include :clap:
....and you said I instead of obligatory'WE'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

Listening to Nigel Farage yesterday evening -  boy was he doing his bit for the SNP.  

He was ranting about those who were likely to vote against the Art50 bill - calling them - and explicitly the SNP - as enemies of the people; enemies of democracy.  ##

And folk were calling in and agreeing with him - calling all who would vote against the bill traitors and worse - and demanding they stand down - and he was laughing, relishing it, whooping it up - egging them on to ever greater abuse of these MPs - who - after all - are only doing their job - voting as their conscience demanded and for what they felt was best for their constituents and the country.

Pretty grim listening to be honest.  Unless you are a Scottish nationalist.

And this from the guy who was instrumental in getting the referendum called; and the leading persuader for many who chose to vote to leave.  And as it happens yesterday evening he admitted and blithely and laughingly dismissed the Â£350m a day for the NHS as not that important, just a little white lie and no big deal - when for many the Â£350m a day for the NHS was a killer fact that made them vote the way they did.


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## delc (Feb 9, 2017)

I understand that Germany would be quite keen on an independent Scotland joining the EU as a replacement for the rest of the UK.


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## ger147 (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Nigel Farage yesterday evening -  boy was he doing his bit for the SNP.  

He was ranting about those who were likely to vote against the Art50 bill - calling them - and explicitly the SNP - as enemies of the people; enemies of democracy.  ##

And folk were calling in and agreeing with him - calling all who would vote against the bill traitors and worse - and demanding they stand down - and he was laughing, relishing it, whooping it up - egging them on to ever greater abuse of these MPs - who - after all - are only doing their job - voting as their conscience demanded and for what they felt was best for their constituents and the country.

Pretty grim listening to be honest.  Unless you are a Scottish nationalist.
		
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In exactly the same manner that the MP's who voted to pass the Art 50 bill, the majority of the MP's who voted against did so because that's what their party told them to do, it has nothing to do with their conscience.

And I suspect some of the Labour rebel MP's were voting against Corbyn, again nothing to do with their consciences...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

ger147 said:



			In exactly the same manner that the MP's who voted to pass the Art 50 bill, the majority of the MP's who voted against did so because that's what their party told them to do, it has nothing to do with their conscience.

And I suspect some of the Labour rebel MP's were voting against Corbyn, again nothing to do with their consciences...
		
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I am talking about the way Farage talked about them - and did great bit of rabble-rousing - enemies of the people - enemies of democracy - traitors.  *Everyone *should utterly condemn that sort of language.  But for reasons I cannot fathom some do not.

But it would have made great listening for nationalists hearing their representatives in Westminster so described.


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## ger147 (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am talking about the way Farage talked about them - and did great bit of rabble-rousing - enemies of the people - enemies of democracy - traitors.  *Everyone *should utterly condemn that sort of language.  But for reasons I cannot fathom some do not.

But it would have made great listening for nationalists hearing their representatives in Westminster so described.
		
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I was replying to your point that the MP's voted according to their conscience - the vast majority did not...


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## Hobbit (Feb 9, 2017)

delc said:



			I understand that Germany would be quite keen on an independent Scotland joining the EU as a replacement for the rest of the UK.
		
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And Spain and France have said no.


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2017)

delc said:



			I understand that Germany would be quite keen on an independent Scotland joining the EU as a replacement for the rest of the UK.
		
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..oh yes...I bet they really want another "net withdrawer" to pay for!  What makes you "understand" this then?


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## PieMan (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to Nigel Farage yesterday evening -  boy was he doing his bit for the SNP.  

He was ranting about those who were likely to vote against the Art50 bill - calling them - and explicitly the SNP - as enemies of the people; enemies of democracy.  ##

And folk were calling in and agreeing with him - calling all who would vote against the bill traitors and worse - and demanding they stand down - and he was laughing, relishing it, whooping it up - egging them on to ever greater abuse of these MPs - who - after all - are only doing their job - voting as their conscience demanded and for what they felt was best for their constituents and the country.

Pretty grim listening to be honest.  Unless you are a Scottish nationalist.

And this from the guy who was instrumental in getting the referendum called; and the leading persuader for many who chose to vote to leave.  And as it happens yesterday evening he admitted and blithely and laughingly dismissed the Â£350m a day for the NHS as not that important, just a little white lie and no big deal - when for many the Â£350m a day for the NHS was a killer fact that made them vote the way they did.
		
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To be fair there are also 'extremists' on the remain side who also told their fair share of porkie-pies before the referendum and continue to rant and rave against the decision to leave the EU.

I'm no admirer of Farage's politics (he is like Trump in that he isn't a career politician) but I do respect the fact that he isn't afraid to say what he thinks and is prepared to give an answer to a question. Unfortunately politicians nowadays don't do that which is why there is so much ill-feeling towards the political establishment.

As for Scottish Independence, ultimately I cannot see the Westminster Government agreeing to another one anytime soon and certainly not before we have exited the EU. Obviously this is potentially dangerous for the SNP if EU Exit is not as bad as some fear as it could see their support dwindle, particularly if the administration of their devolved responsibilities takes a turn for the worse; or Labour gets their act together and start to become a serious opposition.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2017)

delc said:



			I understand that Germany would be quite keen on an independent Scotland joining the EU as a replacement for the rest of the UK.
		
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And what makes you 'Understand' that then?

Would Scotland be a net contributor or recipient?  Remind me what percentage of Scotland's trade is with the EU?


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## Hobbit (Feb 9, 2017)

delc said:



			I understand that Germany would be quite keen on an independent Scotland joining the EU as a replacement for the rest of the UK.
		
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IanM said:



			..oh yes...I bet they really want another "net withdrawer" to pay for!  What makes you "understand" this then?
		
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It is 'documented' that two of the political parties and the head of the German Civil Service have said they're open to discussion for this to happen...

Surprised at France saying no, but not surprised at Spain with its Basque/Catalonia problems saying no.


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2017)

Discussions can happen... just imagine

Nicola says. Och.. "how much cash can you give me for my social welfare agenda"

Angela replies... "You're having a laugh love!"  "We're skint as old socks...we were hoping you'd be coughing up what the UK once did!"


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## drdel (Feb 9, 2017)

An independent Scotland needs all 27 as supporters. It would have a bigger problem getting support of the newer Eastern 'bloc' members than changing the mind of France and Spain. It was these members that frustrated the trade deal with Canada and its mates.


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## Fish (Feb 9, 2017)

IanM said:



			Discussions can happen... just imagine

Nicola says. Och.. "how much cash can you give me for my social welfare agenda"

Angela replies... "You're having a laugh love!"  "We're skint as old socks...we were hoping you'd be coughing up what the UK once did!"
		
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Nicola then says, "you can have a CRACKERJACK pencil" &#128540;


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2017)

drdel said:



			An independent Scotland needs all 27 as supporters. It would have a bigger problem getting support of the newer Eastern 'bloc' members than changing the mind of France and Spain. It was these members that frustrated the trade deal with Canada and its mates.
		
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Do you think? I expect they'd be quite keen to re-establish free movement of their people to come here.

Can't believe all the doom and gloom on this subject. I'm fiercely against independence but really can't believe we'd have trouble joining the EU. Whether Nicola etc would choose to rejoin is another matter, most of the brexit posturing is just to drive a wedge between us to get their indy goal.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2017)

Fish said:



			Nicola then says, "you can have a CRACKERJACK pencil" &#128540;
		
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This just doesn't get old. It's childish but I'm sat here chuckling away at the thought.


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## Val (Feb 9, 2017)

delc said:



			I understand that Germany would be quite keen on an independent Scotland joining the EU as a replacement for the rest of the UK.
		
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Germany has plenty left to bail another failing economy out I take it?


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## Val (Feb 9, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Do you think? I expect they'd be quite keen to re-establish free movement of their people to come here.

Can't believe all the doom and gloom on this subject. I'm fiercely against independence but really can't believe we'd have trouble joining the EU. Whether Nicola etc would choose to rejoin is another matter, most of the brexit posturing is just to drive a wedge between us to get their indy goal.
		
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I don't disagree with the sentiment but it will boil down to hard cash at the end of the day and Scotlands spending against GDP isn't pretty reading


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## chippa1909 (Feb 9, 2017)

Val said:



			I don't disagree with the sentiment but it will boil down to hard cash at the end of the day and Scotlands spending against GDP isn't pretty reading
		
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Always remember that there are no figures available for Scotland as an independent country.


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## Hobbit (Feb 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Always remember that there are no figures available for Scotland as an independent country.
		
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Hahahahaha - #in denial - hahahahaha... GERS report is total fiction..... hahahahaha


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## chippa1909 (Feb 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahaha - #in denial - hahahahaha... GERS report is total fiction..... hahahahaha
		
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Hobbit, you just post what you want, like the France and Spain veto nonsense.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Always remember that there are no figures available for Scotland as an independent country.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

PieMan said:



			To be fair there are also 'extremists' on the remain side who also told their fair share of porkie-pies before the referendum and continue to rant and rave against the decision to leave the EU.

I'm no admirer of Farage's politics (he is like Trump in that he isn't a career politician) but I do respect the fact that he isn't afraid to say what he thinks and is prepared to give an answer to a question. Unfortunately politicians nowadays don't do that which is why there is so much ill-feeling towards the political establishment.

As for Scottish Independence, ultimately I cannot see the Westminster Government agreeing to another one anytime soon and certainly not before we have exited the EU. Obviously this is potentially dangerous for the SNP if EU Exit is not as bad as some fear as it could see their support dwindle, particularly if the administration of their devolved responsibilities takes a turn for the worse; or Labour gets their act together and start to become a serious opposition.
		
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Yes - but rabid Remain supporters don;t exactly rant on the way, or use quite the sort of language, that Farage does.  He does wind me up, but I can mostly laugh at his rantings, and in the context of an IndyRef2 maybe he does it deliberately.


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## Val (Feb 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Always remember that there are no figures available for Scotland as an independent country.
		
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If there are no figures available then how do the SNP know we can afford it?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but rabid Remain supporters don;t exactly rant on the way, or use quite the sort of language, that Farage does.  He does wind me up, but I can mostly laugh at his rantings, and in the context of an IndyRef2 maybe he does it deliberately.
		
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I cant say I have ever heard Farage 'Rant' or 'Rage'


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I cant say I have ever heard Farage 'Rant' or 'Rage'
		
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It's _Nigel_ Farage, the brexit guy, the ex-UKIP leader. You know, the ranty one!


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## Hobbit (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but rabid Remain supporters don;t exactly rant on the way, or use quite the sort of language, that Farage does.  He does wind me up, but I can mostly laugh at his rantings, and in the context of an IndyRef2 maybe he does it deliberately.
		
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So you haven't ranted in recent days? Really? Really, really? I see no difference between your behaviour, along with Delc's, and Farage's, albeit on a different side of the fence.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's _Nigel_ Farage, the brexit guy, the ex-UKIP leader. You know, the ranty one!
		
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That's him but 'Ranty' really?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That's him but 'Ranty' really?
		
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You know, Ranty McRantface


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			You know, Ranty McRantface
		
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Oh yes, Neeko McKrankface.


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## Fish (Feb 10, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			You know, Ranty McRantface
		
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&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## delc (Feb 10, 2017)

PieMan said:



			To be fair there are also 'extremists' on the remain side who also told their fair share of porkie-pies before the referendum and continue to rant and rave against the decision to leave the EU.

I'm no admirer of Farage's politics (he is like Trump in that he isn't a career politician) but I do respect the fact that he isn't afraid to say what he thinks and is prepared to give an answer to a question. Unfortunately politicians nowadays don't do that which is why there is so much ill-feeling towards the political establishment.

As for Scottish Independence, ultimately I cannot see the Westminster Government agreeing to another one anytime soon and certainly not before we have exited the EU. Obviously this is potentially dangerous for the SNP if EU Exit is not as bad as some fear as it could see their support dwindle, particularly if the administration of their devolved responsibilities takes a turn for the worse; or Labour gets their act together and start to become a serious opposition.
		
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Why is Nigel Farage not a career politician? He is an elected MEP and has stood as a candidate in several UK elections! He also spent a number of years as the UKIP Party leader.


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## PieMan (Feb 10, 2017)

delc said:



			Why is Nigel Farage not a career politician? He is an elected MEP and has stood as a candidate in several UK elections! He also spent a number of years as the UKIP Party leader.
		
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Sorry - should've clarified that he didn't enter politics straight from University. I've also been to hear him speak and he said at the event he doesn't see himself as a career politician.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2017)

Farage has worked in a job outside of politics before entering politics. Career politicians tend to go straight from education into working for a politician / party / local govt, progress into becoming a councillor or MP and work their way up. Their whole working lives have been within the political bubble. Farage is not of that ilk. He had a non political job for many years and so has experience of real world work and life outside of politics. I think that is part of his appeal to people. He doesn't talk in the same trained manner that career politicians do. Heavens, he even admits his mistakes, laughs about them and holds his hands up when he doesn't know the answer to a question.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I cant say I have ever heard Farage 'Rant' or 'Rage'
		
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Just tune in one day next week Monday - Thursday at 7pm and have a listen and you may then agree with me - or not.  He doesn't do Fridays - but Andrew Pierce does.  AP is almost as bad as NF if not worse.  Just try listening.  I would like to hear what you thought.  

BTW - in case you are wondering - LBC is no longer London-focussed - it's national and takes callers from all over the country (they rebranded it so that LBC stands for Leading Britains Conversation).  

There is a lot of good debate on it, but sometimes it does open your eyes (make your jaw drop) listening to the views of a large minority of the folks who call in.


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## delc (Feb 10, 2017)

PieMan said:



			Sorry - should've clarified that he didn't enter politics straight from University. I've also been to hear him speak and he said at the event *he doesn't see himself as a career politician*.
		
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And you believe that hoary old chestnut!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I cant say I have ever heard Farage 'Rant' or 'Rage'
		
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'rose tinted glasses alert':lol:


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'rose tinted glasses alert':lol:
		
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Rose tinted spectacles? A flippin' rose tinted gold fish bowl inside a rose tinted fish tank!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Rose tinted spectacles? A flippin' rose tinted gold fish bowl inside a rose tinted fish tank!
		
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Some evidence please.


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## Val (Feb 10, 2017)

Oh well, what rhetoric will we get from wee Nicola after this?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/76...ce-referendum-plan-brexit-trash-EU-join-queue


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## chippa1909 (Feb 11, 2017)

Don't be ridiculous. There is no such thing as a queue to join the EU.
Please look into things a bit more before posting, rather than just believing what you read in the Express. Jeez.


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## Fish (Feb 11, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Don't be ridiculous. There is no such thing as a queue to join the EU.
Please look into things a bit more before posting, rather than just believing what you read in the Express. Jeez.
		
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So are you saying it's simply a case of asking and being excepted, I don't think so, otherwise why all the fuss now!

If there are a host of countries that need to obtain and reach certain criterias to obtain membership then that surely creates a queue? I'd say Scotland are from 1st choice and there are very few arms being held out saying, 'come and join us'? 

A politician being asked to be honest to its electorate, that'll be a first! 

Official figures show Scotland's deficit is the highest in the EU at 9.5 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), behind Greece on 7.2 per cent and Spain on 5.1 per cent. Brussels penalises countries and doesn't want members under 3.0, so how are Scotland going to address the Â£15b deficit they have to be considered? 

Surely they'd also have to adopt the Euro then, that won't be cheap to implement, I think it all looks a bit boom & bust to me! 

I can't see them ever being accepted personally from what I've read & watched, they just don't tick any boxes and is all just a rabble rousing pipe dream.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

Val said:



			Oh well, what rhetoric will we get from wee Nicola after this?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/76...ce-referendum-plan-brexit-trash-EU-join-queue

Click to expand...

I can't believe you used a Scottish Daily Express link.
I thought you were capable of a much higher level of debate that quoting that comic.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can't believe you used a Scottish Daily Express link.
I thought you were capable of a much higher level of debate that quoting that comic.
		
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Hahahahahahahahaha oh the irony. Thought you'd counter with that chip paper, WingsoverScotland.


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## Fish (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can't believe you used a Scottish Daily Express link.
I thought you were capable of a much higher level of debate that quoting that comic.
		
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Are you saying that everything reported as being said/quoted by Jacqueline Minor is a lie?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

Fish said:



			Are you saying that everything reported as being said/quoted by Jacqueline Minor is a lie?
		
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I never get past the headlines.
Most of the political headlines are full of aggressive hateful bile, as Hobbit probably knows.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I never get past the headlines.
Most of the political headlines are full of aggressive hateful bile.
		
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Looks familiar


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I never get past the headlines.
Most of the political headlines are full of aggressive hateful bile, as Hobbit probably knows.
		
Click to expand...

Headlines are the hook that draws you in. In a half decent paper 90% of an article is opinion, with only 10% facts if you're lucky. Opinions create beliefs, sadly, and end up being viewed as facts.

A perfect example is the SNP's twisting of the drop in Barnett funding. They continually leave out the bit about the changes in where income tax goes in Scotland. All of a sudden everyone and their dog believes the nasty UK govt is reducing money going to Scotland, also partly because they want to believe it. Yes they are reducing the funding to Scotland but they've also agreed that a percentage of income tax raised in Scotland stays in Scotland, balancing the drop in funding... but hey, lets all believe that the political party that has managed to create a massive deficit and a GDP worse than Greece and Spain, buying votes with our money, is in it for us. They are buying the chance of independence, and bankrupting a country to achieve it.


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## Val (Feb 11, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Don't be ridiculous. There is no such thing as a queue to join the EU.
Please look into things a bit more before posting, rather than just believing what you read in the Express. Jeez.
		
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Dillusional :rofl:


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## Val (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can't believe you used a Scottish Daily Express link.
I thought you were capable of a much higher level of debate that quoting that comic.
		
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Oh man, talk about irony. This is the post of the year so far


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## DCB (Feb 11, 2017)

Okay, hypothetically,  Scotland wins independant,  we ask to join the EU, they say yes, how long would this process take and how much will membership cost us ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Some evidence please.
		
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Google 'Farage rant' and choose from many pages


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

Val said:



			Oh man, talk about irony. This is the post of the year so far
		
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Express is fading fast, lower circulation figures than the P&J and the Courier.
I wonder why?


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Express is fading fast, lower circulation figures than the P&J and the Courier.
I wonder why?
		
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A bit of spin for you just to make a suggestion as to why, even though I haven't got a clue.

Every papers circulation is dropping courtesy of reading the paper on a tablet/computer/ipad. I read several 'newspapers' every day, none of which via a hard copy.


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## Val (Feb 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			A bit of spin for you just to make a suggestion as to why, even though I haven't got a clue.

Every papers circulation is dropping courtesy of reading the paper on a tablet/computer/ipad. I read several 'newspapers' every day, none of which via a hard copy.
		
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Bri, there is far too much common sense in that post for certain posters to understand


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2017)

Is this the start of a split in the SNP http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/o...ottish-soldiers-murdered-by-ira-35435967.html


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			A bit of spin for you just to make a suggestion as to why, even though I haven't got a clue.

Every papers circulation is dropping courtesy of reading the paper on a tablet/computer/ipad. I read several 'newspapers' every day, none of which via a hard copy.
		
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Not so The Scottish Times and FT newspapers are increasing sales in Scotland.

The Scottish Times is probably Scotland's the most neutrally political publication.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Is this the start of a split in the SNP http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/o...ottish-soldiers-murdered-by-ira-35435967.html

Click to expand...

Oh dear
'desperately clutching at straws alert'


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not so The Scottish Times and FT newspapers are increasing sales in Scotland.

The Scottish Times is probably Scotland's the most neutrally political publication.
		
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I must get a copy of the Scottish Times... I'll add it to my subscription list for the ipad, if they do an electronic copy.

A rhetorical question; does a neutral newspaper only appear neutral to those who are aligned to its mindset?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I must get a copy of the Scottish Times... I'll add it to my subscription list for the ipad, if they do an electronic copy.

A rhetorical question; does a neutral newspaper only appear neutral to those who are aligned to its mindset?
		
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I think most folk know the meaning of neutral.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think most folk know the meaning of neutral.
		
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OK, I'll put it another way, as you seem to have missed the point. There's the odd paper mentioned in here occasionally that I think is relatively neutral but other people have slated it. One person's neutral is obviously another person's rabid red top/broadsheet.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear
'desperately clutching at straws alert'
		
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None clutched but your response says it all.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			None clutched but your response says it all.
		
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If you are going to post inflammatory posts please keep up to date.
This incident is days old and Nicola Sturgeon has apologised for the comments made by the MSP.
Sorry to disappoint you.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are going to post inflammatory posts please keep up to date.
This incident is days old and Nicola Sturgeon has apologised for the comments made by the MSP.
Sorry to disappoint you.
		
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I wrote nothing inflammatory in my post just publish a link to a newspaper. Compared to the bloggs you write and publish links to it was mild.

Do you think the SNP support the enquiry.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2017)

You do seem to be either a total innocent or someone desperate to keep 400 year religious wars aflame.
Either way, I'm out of this conversation.


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## chippa1909 (Feb 11, 2017)

Fish said:



			So are you saying it's simply a case of asking and being excepted, I don't think so, otherwise why all the fuss now!

If there are a host of countries that need to obtain and reach certain criterias to obtain membership then that surely creates a queue? I'd say Scotland are from 1st choice and there are very few arms being held out saying, 'come and join us'? 

A politician being asked to be honest to its electorate, that'll be a first! 

Official figures show Scotland's deficit is the highest in the EU at 9.5 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), behind Greece on 7.2 per cent and Spain on 5.1 per cent. Brussels penalises countries and doesn't want members under 3.0, so how are Scotland going to address the Â£15b deficit they have to be considered? 

Surely they'd also have to adopt the Euro then, that won't be cheap to implement, I think it all looks a bit boom & bust to me! 

I can't see them ever being accepted personally from what I've read & watched, they just don't tick any boxes and is all just a rabble rousing pipe dream.
		
Click to expand...

The deficit criteria applies to countries applying to join the Euro, not the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Google 'Farage rant' and choose from many pages

Click to expand...

Tried that but N0, cant find him 'Ranting 'anywhere  

Farage is a very good orator, just because what he says is not to your liking doesn't make it ranting.  I would put it to you that the manner in which he makes his political speeches is no different than the likes of Sturgeon, May, Cameron or Junker. He is passionate in his conviction but to me 'Ranting' is when someone becomes very load/shouty/aggressive/angry,  I can find no evidence of him using these tactics.  Maybe if you would like to defend the accusation you could show me some proof of him 'Ranting' rather than simply ask me to google it.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You do seem to be either a total innocent or someone desperate to keep 400 year religious wars aflame.
Either way, I'm out of this conversation.
		
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Are you being deliberately daft it was about something that happened a few years ago. What's 400 years and religion got to do with it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 11, 2017)

DCB said:



			Okay, hypothetically,  Scotland wins independant,  we ask to join the EU, they say yes, how long would this process take and how much will membership cost us ?
		
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Good question that has been passed over. I googled it and came to the EU own page. There is no timeframe as you basically need to meet all rules and regs. In Scotland's case that should be pretty simple as I assume they already meet them.

The difficulty comes in the need to adopt the Euro, meet the financial requirements. They would also need to negotiate the amount Scotland would have to pay, in particular as Scotland would look to take out more than they pay in. That would take some sorting out.

In short, it could be very simple other than for the economic situation.


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## Val (Feb 12, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			The deficit criteria applies to countries applying to join the Euro, not the EU.
		
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I believe one if the criteria to join the EU now is to take on the Euro as currency, so all very relevant


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2017)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/28256...d-coyne-homeless-man-20-note-nicola-sturgeon/

And the current leader of the SNP bad headline -----------
He is Nicola's former husband's sister in law's cousin.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 12, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good question that has been passed over. I googled it and came to the EU own page. There is no timeframe as you basically need to meet all rules and regs. In Scotland's case that should be pretty simple as I assume they already meet them.

The difficulty comes in the need to adopt the Euro, meet the financial requirements. They would also need to negotiate the amount Scotland would have to pay, *in particular as* *Scotland would look to take out more than they pay in*. That would take some sorting out.

In short, it could be very simple other than for the economic situation.
		
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:rofl:
Nothing new there then!


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/28256...d-coyne-homeless-man-20-note-nicola-sturgeon/

And the current leader of the SNP bad headline -----------
He is Nicola's former husband's sister in law's cousin.
		
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That's grossly unfair on Sturgeon, and a typical redtop banner headline. The link is so tenuous, and she's probably not(never) seen him for years.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			That's grossly unfair on Sturgeon, and a typical redtop banner headline. The link is so tenuous, and she's probably not(never) seen him for years.
		
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I loved her take on it.....I'm more closely related to The Queen than that guy.

What a plum ... and his family seem to be totally ashamed of him. Next visit home will be interesting.


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## Val (Feb 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/28256...d-coyne-homeless-man-20-note-nicola-sturgeon/

And the current leader of the SNP bad headline -----------
He is Nicola's former husband's sister in law's cousin.
		
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I thought you didn't read past the headlines


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2017)

That is only the Express.....the Sun.......as you know is a much superior read.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Google 'Farage rant' and choose from many pages

Click to expand...

I'm glad you posted that as I have been dumb-struck that the question was asked.  As I have said before - if you want evidence just listen to LBC at 7pm any weekday night and you'll hear the guy.  Then you'll never need to ask the question again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm glad you posted that as I have been dumb-struck that the question was asked.  As I have said before - if you want evidence just listen to LBC at 7pm any weekday night and you'll hear the guy.  Then you'll never need to ask the question again.
		
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Great comment on Wings today.........'The more this year goes on the more I feel I am living in a rejected Two Ronnies Sketch.'


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm glad you posted that as I have been dumb-struck that the question was asked.  As I have said before - if you want evidence just listen to LBC at 7pm any weekday night and you'll hear the guy.  Then you'll never need to ask the question again.
		
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What do you consider someone 'Ranting' to be?   I have looked at many of the speeches he has given and I would not say any of them could be seen as 'Ranting'  He makes his point very clearly and with conviction, if you consider that as Ranting then I suggest you are confusing it with someone who is stating an opinion you disagree with.    So I ask the question again, show me some evidence of him Ranting.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Great comment on Wings today.........'The more this year goes on the more I feel I am living in a rejected Two Ronnies Sketch.'
		
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The more this year goes on the more I feel I am reading a two 'Stooges' Sketch.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What do you consider someone 'Ranting' to be?   I have looked at many of the speeches he has given and I would not say any of them could be seen as 'Ranting'  He makes his point very clearly and with conviction, if you consider that as Ranting then I suggest you are confusing it with someone who is stating an opinion you disagree with.    So I ask the question again, show me some evidence of him Ranting.
		
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His radio programme is not a speech - I get the feeling you don't actually want to listen to him on LBC in case you realise (actually have to admit) just what a fanatic he is.


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2017)

SILH - Apart from attacking SR and expressing your dislike of the Brexit vote and hatred of Farage perhaps you could explain what relevance it has to a 2nd independence vote in Scotland?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2017)

drdel said:



			SILH - Apart from attacking SR and expressing your dislike of the Brexit vote and hatred of Farage perhaps you could explain what relevance it has to a 2nd independence vote in Scotland?
		
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I don't attack @SR - I may well disagree with him - but I don't attack.  And I don't 'hate' anyone.  I'd have thought that would be obvious me being what I have heard referred to as a 'christian liberal'.  Besides - 'Hate' is a self-destructive emotion and to be avoided at all costs.

And I mentioned Farage because on his LBC programme (last Monday evening I think) before the Art50 vote he was slamming the SNP MPs and others as 'enemies of the people' and 'enemies of democracy' and supported and encouraged callers who tiook the same view.  If you want to drive 'on the fence' Scottish voters into the YES camp (note that not all SNP voters voted YES) Farage ranting on about SNP MPs being 'enemies of..' will do that.

Farage , Nuttall and UKIP are an existential threat to the Union - maybe that's their game


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

I am traveling down to the South of England next month........do the shopkeepers/taxi drivers etc still accept Scottish notes ?


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## Val (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am traveling down to the South of England next month........do the shopkeepers/taxi drivers etc still accept Scottish notes ?
		
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Yes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am traveling down to the South of England next month........do the shopkeepers/taxi drivers etc still accept Scottish notes ?
		
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It's also a good one - many smaller shops will look at them very curiously and you can get some reluctance - but they'll generally be accepted (can't remember last time I was refused)

My dad used to bring a good supply of Scottish bank notes with him when he came to visit us as he enjoyed the 'banter' he'd have when shopkeepers questioned their validity


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am traveling down to the South of England next month........do the shopkeepers/taxi drivers etc still accept Scottish notes ?
		
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Plastic is 'King' nowadays ...

Can't remember last time I used cash other than leaving a tip when eating out...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

Difficult to get BoE notes in Scotland now.
I have only been refused once, in a gift shop, I said that's a pity and started to walk away and they suddenly changed their mind.
As you say though Hogan, you generally do get lots of funny looks......... [south of Preston only of course]


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## Val (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Difficult to get BoE notes in Scotland now.*
I have only been refused once, in a gift shop, I said that's a pity and started to walk away and they suddenly changed their mind.
As you say though Hogan, you generally do get lots of funny looks......... [south of Preston only of course]
		
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Go to your local bank and ask for them, you'll get them no problem.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Plastic is 'King' nowadays ...

Can't remember last time I used cash other than leaving a tip when eating out...
		
Click to expand...

I had a wee snigger at the thought of leaving a Scottish Â£5 as a tip and wondered if it would be refused.
Lots of places have Â£10 minimum, do you not frequent any?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

Val said:



			Go to your local bank and ask for them, you'll get them no problem.
		
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.....after a 20 mile drive and queuing for 20 minutes as they have closed all the local rural banks.
Hole in the walls only give out Scottish notes.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I had a wee snigger at the thought of leaving a Scottish Â£5 as a tip and wondered if it would be refused.
Lots of places have Â£10 minimum, do you not frequent any?
		
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A Scotman's leaving a Â£5 tip!?!?! Now I know you're on a wind up...


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2017)

Don't forget that they can refuse though. Doesn't happen often but if an area has a spell of dodgy notes the first ones they will refuse will be the Scottish ones as they feel thin and they are not used to them. Rare to happen but I have seen it.

Plastic is your friend


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## Old Skier (Feb 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			A Scotman's leaving a Â£5 tip!?!?! Now I know you're on a wind up...
		
Click to expand...

Profiling naughty boy.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lots of places have Â£10 minimum, do you not frequent any?
		
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Not aware of there being a minimum with a contactless card...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

What are they?:lol:

The places I go to don't have them.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm glad you posted that as I have been dumb-struck that the question was asked.  As I have said before - if you want evidence just listen to LBC at 7pm any weekday night and you'll hear the guy.  Then you'll never need to ask the question again.
		
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I cant really see any way that I am going to listen to LBC Radio.  Youtube has many videos of farage speaking, some of them from his radio broadcasts.  I cant see any where I would consider his as 'Ranting'  Maybe you and some others on here have a different concept of someone 'Ranting.

Is this one 'Ranting" ?

[video=youtube;xX5YdOnVrEo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX5YdOnVrEo[/video]


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2017)

Is this one 'Ranting'?

[video=youtube;SaeCF4RZUvk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaeCF4RZUvk[/video]


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What are they?:lol:

The places I go to don't have them.
		
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Aye, but they do have them down here... Where you are visiting...

Makes life easier if using public transport...

Cash only required when making a 'donation' after visiting a museum or purchasing a Big Issue...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

Does my Scottish bus pass work down there?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2017)

Is he ranting in this video?  If not then please show me an example of where he does.  Or explain to me such that I can understand how the word 'Rant' applies to what he is doing?

[video=youtube;I0m7HgjNOlA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0m7HgjNOlA[/video]


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## delc (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am traveling down to the South of England next month........do the shopkeepers/taxi drivers etc still accept Scottish notes ?
		
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The further South you go, the less likely they are to be accepted, although they are legal tender. Whenever I visit Scotland, I try to spend all my Scottish notes before I cross the border on my trip back!


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does my Scottish bus pass work down there?
		
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As my Boris card doesn't 'work' outside of London... 
I doubt your Scottish pass 'works' south of the border...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Is he ranting in this video?  If not then please show me an example of where he does.  Or explain to me such that I can understand how the word 'Rant' applies to what he is doing?

[video=youtube;I0m7HgjNOlA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0m7HgjNOlA[/video]
		
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I just love Farage's manic expressions, there are many pages of them somewhere under the 'Google Farage Rant' heading
Do you think he practices them in the mirror.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-expect-scotland-become-independent-9806427

Interesting Poll.......In England, Sturgeon and Davidson rated higher than Corbyn


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## delc (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-expect-scotland-become-independent-9806427

Interesting Poll.......In England, Sturgeon and Davidson rated higher than Corbyn
		
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That's not difficult, because Corbyn is useless and ineffective. Even Mrs May can easily trample over him in Parliament!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			As my Boris card doesn't 'work' outside of London... 
I doubt your Scottish pass 'works' south of the border...
		
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Speaking of anti Scottish rants.......did anyone see the story of the English couple who spent ages planning a trip from Lands End to JoG on their bus pass.
They were mighty disappointed when they found out that they could not use it past Gretna.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-expect-scotland-become-independent-9806427

Interesting Poll.......In England, Sturgeon and Davidson rated higher than Corbyn
		
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Also that most Scots regard security of borders above membership of the single market.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-expect-scotland-become-independent-9806427

Interesting Poll.......In England, Sturgeon and Davidson rated higher than Corbyn
		
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That bar is so low the trick is finding anyone that is rated lower than Corbyn.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Also that most Scots regard security of borders above membership of the single market.
		
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Most:lol:........you do like to spin a negative.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Most:lol:........you do like to spin a negative.
		
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So %51.7 isn't most in your opinion


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So %51.7 isn't most in your opinion 

Click to expand...

......or a difference of 4% of the 4000 Scots who responded out of of a population of 5.3 million.
Most Scots would be nearly 2.7 million

Did you spot that 26% of the 35,000 English respondees said none of them.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-expect-scotland-become-independent-9806427

Interesting Poll.......In England, Sturgeon and Davidson rated higher than Corbyn
		
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Sturgeon is a very competent politician, even if I don't like her politics. Davidson is slipping a bit in my opinion but is still a million miles better than Corbyn.

What is worrying is that the media are really starting to find Corbyn's weaknesses and some of the questions, which he's dodging really well, lay Corbyn's true far left wing beliefs out there for everyone to see. Worrying because if those are his beliefs, and he gets anywhere near a position of genuine power we'll be well and truly going to hell in a handcart.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

Davidson has lost credibility by trying to sell Brexit after her strong Remain stance. 
She opens her mouth and the bloggers immediately post up a piece where she says the exact opposite, only a few of months earlier.
She is gaining a bit of support from the final diehards of the Labour party switching their Unionist support.

UK Politics really is a basket case now. Tories have little core support but the rest is just a shambles


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Davidson has lost credibility by trying to sell Brexit after her strong Remain stance. 
She opens her mouth and the bloggers immediately post up a piece where she says the exact opposite, only a few of months earlier.
She is gaining a bit of support from the final diehards of the Labour party switching their Unionist support.

UK Politics really is a basket case now. Tories have little core support but the rest is just a shambles
		
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What is core support? Either someone votes Tory or they don't. Does a non-core Tory voter only have half a vote? And let's be honest, can you see anything other than a Tory govt in Westminster for many years to come?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			......or a difference of 4% of the 4000 Scots who responded out of of a population of 5.3 million.
Most Scots would be nearly 2.7 million

Did you spot that 26% of the 35,000 English respondees said none of them.
		
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You really are odd.  You bring up a poll to support your bias but put it down when it reveals something you don't like.


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## delc (Feb 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What is core support? Either someone votes Tory or they don't. Does a non-core Tory voter only have half a vote? And let's be honest, can you see anything other than a Tory govt in Westminster for many years to come?
		
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It has been said of the Tory Party that it contains the cream of society - rich, thick, and full of clots!  Most of these clots are on the hard right, Eurosceptic wing of the Party. John Redwood, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Bill Cash, Peter Bone, Ian Duncan-Smith, David Davis, Liam Fox, Michael Gove; need I say more?


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What is core support? Either someone votes Tory or they don't. Does a non-core Tory voter only have half a vote? And let's be honest, can you see anything other than a Tory govt in Westminster for many years to come?
		
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delc said:



			It has been said of the Tory Party that it contains the cream of society - rich, thick, and full of clots!  Most of these clots are on the hard right, Eurosceptic wing of the Party. John Redwood, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Bill Cash, Peter Bone, Ian Duncan-Smith, David Davis, Liam Fox; need I say more?
		
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Yes you do need to say more. Nowhere in response to my post did you go anywhere near answering the question on core support and who votes for them. All you've done is go off on one about a number of MP's.

But if you think your waffle answers the question, good for you


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## delc (Feb 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Yes you do need to say more. Nowhere in response to my post did you go anywhere near answering the question on core support and who votes for them. All you've done is go off on one about a number of MP's.

But if you think your waffle answers the question, good for you

Click to expand...

Obviously all the UKIP core voters voted Leave in the Brexit referendum. Most of the Lib-Dem voters (not many of them at the time) would have voted Remain, and Conservative and Labour voters were pretty 50:50, depending on which areas they lived in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What is core support? Either someone votes Tory or they don't. Does a non-core Tory voter only have half a vote? And let's be honest, can you see anything other than a Tory govt in Westminster for many years to come?
		
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I think that many folk voted Tory whilst holding their noses.
But as you say.......no alternative.

Same as when it was Thatcher v Foot.


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## delc (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that many folk voted Tory whilst holding their noses.
But as you say.......no alternative.

Same as when it was Thatcher v Foot.
		
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Labour keep on making the same mistake of choosing useless leaders just because of their hard left wing views. Although I can never forgive him for the Iraq war, at least Tony Blair realised that to have any chance of winning power, Labour had to move more into the centre ground and appear to offer competent governance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			A Scotman's leaving a Â£5 tip!?!?! Now I know you're on a wind up...
		
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The bill must have been about Â£200


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Davidson has lost credibility by trying to sell Brexit after her strong Remain stance. 
She opens her mouth and the bloggers immediately post up a piece where she says the exact opposite, only a few of months earlier.
S*he is gaining a bit of support from the final diehards of the Labour party switching their Unionist support.*

UK Politics really is a basket case now. Tories have little core support but the rest is just a shambles
		
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I have heard it said that way back in the day the Labour party was the choice of the Catholic central belt electorate; the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party was the choice of Protestant (spot the connection in the latter case)


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## Fish (Feb 13, 2017)

delc said:



			The further South you go, the less likely they are to be accepted, although they are legal tender.
		
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No there not!

Yes you can spend them in England but they dont have to be legally accepted. 

Three banks in Scotland are authorised to issue notes: Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank and Royal Bank of Scotland. There are also four note-issuing banks in Northern Ireland: Bank of Ireland; AIB Group (which trades as First Trust Bank in Northern Ireland), Northern Bank and Ulster Bank.

The Banknotes issued by all seven are LEGAL CURRENCY and can be accepted throughout the UK, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will be!

The term 'legal tender' has very little practical meaning as far as ordinary, everyday transactions are concerned, and it has no bearing on the acceptability of authorised banknotes as a means of payment.  The acceptability of any means of payment, including banknotes, is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved.

English shopkeepers, as I was for many years are unfamiliar with them and so I would refuse to accept Scottish & Northern Irish notes. This was because I couldnt tell whether the notes were genuine, rather than any feelings towards the Scots! 

Donf bother in the future either with your Euros &#128514;&#128514;


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 13, 2017)

Fish said:



			English shopkeepers, as I was for many years are unfamiliar with them and so I would refuse to accept Scottish & Northern Irish notes. This was because I couldnt tell whether the notes were genuine, rather than any feelings towards the Scots!
		
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You would have been better educating yourself then because that's an inexcusable display of sheer ignorance. You'd have permanently lost my custom if you refused my money.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2017)

delc said:



			Obviously all the UKIP core voters voted Leave in the Brexit referendum. Most of the Lib-Dem voters (not many of them at the time) would have voted Remain, and Conservative and Labour voters were pretty 50:50, depending on which areas they lived in.
		
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Which comes to 12 million votes, based on where the votes went in the last election. Way short of the 17 million votes posted for Leave in the referendum.

Once again proving you don't know your bum from your elbow. It would appear thicko's also voted Remain.


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## Fish (Feb 13, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			You would have been better educating yourself then because that's an inexcusable display of sheer ignorance. You'd have permanently lost my custom if you refused my money.
		
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So I'm ignorant and uneducated, thanks for that!!

Then so be it, we had constant advisories from our bank/s not to accept them because we were awash with fakes down here and we would lose out on those sales and be out of f pocket, there's no excuse for people to be walking around with them, just pop into a bank or post office and exchange them, or is it a case that theirs a thrill of confrontation to be had?

We currently have loads of Â£50 fakes doing the rounds that can beat the safety pens, again loads of shops displaying signs saying they won't accept Â£50's.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 13, 2017)

Fish said:



			Then so be it, we had constant advisories from our bank/s not to accept them because we were awash with fakes down here and we would lose out on those sales and be out of f pocket, there's no excuse for people to be walking around with them, just pop into a bank or post office and exchange them, or is it a case that theirs a thrill of confrontation to be had?

We currently have loads of Â£50 fakes doing the rounds that can beat the safety pens, again loads of shops displaying signs saying they won't accept Â£50's.
		
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Which sums up, more or less, why plastic is 'king'...

Not worth small businesses taking a chance...


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## Fish (Feb 13, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Which sums up, more or less, why plastic is 'king'...

Not worth small businesses taking a chance...
		
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Small retailers can't take the chance, you become overly suspicious when someone came in and bought something for under Â£5 (or lower) with a Â£20 Scottish note or similar say with an English Â£50, they walk out with legal tender and the business then loses all that value.  

Shops then get targeted very quickly and when it happens a couple of times your own bank advises you don't accept them. 

I had a shop that was 2 doors away from a post office, I had a confrontation with someone wanting to use a Â£20 Scottish note for a Â£3 ssle, I asked him to just to go next door and change it, he wouldn't and made a scene, it was all show as my cameras picked him up outside laughing getting into a car, his gang was obviously doing the rounds and hopefully having that stance kept them away for a while. 

It's got nothing to do with being ignorant or uneducated, it's about looking after and protecting your business!


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## delc (Feb 14, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Which comes to 12 million votes, based on where the votes went in the last election. Way short of the 17 million votes posted for Leave in the referendum.

Once again proving you don't know your bum from your elbow. It would appear thicko's also voted Remain.
		
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How do you work that out? 16.14 million people voted Remain in the referendum, which was still more than voted Tory in the last General Election. The difference was that there was a bigger turnout in the referendum, and the supporters of both the major parties were pretty split on the Brexit issue. It was the real or closet supporters of UKIP that swung it for Leave.


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## Fish (Feb 14, 2017)

delc said:



			How do you work that out? 16.14 million people voted Remain in the referendum, which was still more than voted Tory in the last General Election. The difference was that there was a bigger turnout in the referendum, and the supporters of both the major parties were pretty split on the Brexit issue. It was the real or closet supporters of UKIP that swung it for Leave.
		
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Rubbish, if that was the case UKIP would be running every council and even the country, but......

Overall the Leave campaign came top in nine of the UK's nations and regions, with the Remain campaign coming top in just three. The West Midlands had the highest vote share for Leave. 

The West Midlands is/has always been a labour stronghold, are you saying it's now really a UKIP one along with all the other cities that have Tory or Labour councils if everyone came out to vote?


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## Hobbit (Feb 14, 2017)

delc said:



			How do you work that out? 16.14 million people voted Remain in the referendum, which was still more than voted Tory in the last General Election. The difference was that there was a bigger turnout in the referendum, and the supporters of both the major parties were pretty split on the Brexit issue. It was the real or closet supporters of UKIP that swung it for Leave.
		
Click to expand...

I did it using your formula and based it on the last election. But seeing as you have your crystal ball to hand, how do you know the numbers of supporters for the major parties and how they voted? And how does that then give you a number for the real of closet supporters? 

Two major parties were pretty much split? That's news to me, as all the political commentators agree that that a greater percentage of Labour supporters voted Leave as did Remain. Which looking at the closeness of the vote suggests that more Tories voted Remain than Leave. That blows your point out of the water.

You really do make it up as you go along don't you.


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## delc (Feb 14, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I did it using your formula and based it on the last election. But seeing as you have your crystal ball to hand, how do you know the numbers of supporters for the major parties and how they voted? And how does that then give you a number for the real of closet supporters? 

Two major parties were pretty much split? That's news to me, as all the political commentators agree that that a greater percentage of Labour supporters voted Leave as did Remain. Which looking at the closeness of the vote suggests that more Tories voted Remain than Leave. That blows your point out of the water.

You really do make it up as you go along don't you.
		
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In the 2015 general election 3.9 million people voted UKIP, which was about 10% of the popular vote, but due to our first past the post electoral system they only got one MP elected. If we had a proportional representation system they could have had up to 83 MP's.  In the European Parliament, where PR does apply, UKIP is actually the biggest UK Party, but to some extent that was related to a protest vote and a low turn out in the Euro Elections.

In the Brexit referendum, people did not necessarily vote along Party lines. The Labour Party estimated that about 56% of their core voters voted Remain, so Corbyn's pro-Brexit stance is a bit surprising, although I believe that he is personally a bit of a Eurosceptic.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 14, 2017)

Fish said:



			So I'm ignorant and uneducated, thanks for that!!
		
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That is NOT what I said.


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## chippa1909 (Feb 14, 2017)

Soooo...Anybody want to start a sweep as to when Labour start polling in single figures in Scotland?..:rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2017)

I saw that,
The last bastion of power for Labour in Scotland is the Local Authorities.
It now looks like that will be blown away.

It would be hellish funny if they blow whats left of their credibility by seeking alliances with the Tories.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 17, 2017)

Goodness an almost recognisable QT from Glasgow.
Did the normal audience bus break down


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness an almost recognisable QT from Glasgow.
Did the normal audience bus break down 

Click to expand...

No.  The SNP never paid the bill last time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

Here is Caroline.
Strangely, she is not a half naked man with a painted blue face and wearing a jimmy hat.

Two or three 'Caroline's' I know are making the same journey.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/before-you-vote/


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Here is Caroline.
Strangely, she is not a half naked man with a painted blue face and wearing a jimmy hat.

Two or three 'Caroline's' I know are making the same journey.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/before-you-vote/

Click to expand...

Not balanced then.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not balanced then.
		
Click to expand...

Correct, it is something you would be very unlikely to view on 'The News Where You Are'.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Here is Caroline.
Strangely, she is not a half naked man with a painted blue face and wearing a jimmy hat.

Two or three 'Caroline's' I know are making the same journey.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/before-you-vote/

Click to expand...

Bloody immigrants


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Bloody immigrants 

Click to expand...

Steady......remember it is the Welsh we hate.


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## Hobbit (Feb 19, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Bloody immigrants 

Click to expand...

Oi! I'm an ethnic minority and should be getting lots of grants from the SNP. I bring multiculturalism...:ears:


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Oi! I'm an ethnic minority and should be getting lots of grants from the SNP. I bring multiculturalism...:ears:
		
Click to expand...

Get in the queue [or is it list].

[spot the Neil gaff]


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Correct, it is something you would be very unlikely to view on 'The News Where You Are'.
		
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Never considered one mans blogg real news or factually reliable  wherever it comes from.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Never considered one mans blogg real news or factually reliable  wherever it comes from.
		
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From someone who swallowed the UKIP lies..aye right.

Check you facts [for a change].


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			From someone who swallowed the UKIP lies..aye right.

Check you facts [for a change].
		
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When have I ever had anything to do with supporting UKIP. It seems your facts need checking.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			When have I ever had anything to do with supporting UKIP. It seems your facts need checking.
		
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I never said anything about you supporting UKIP.


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I never said anything about you supporting UKIP.
		
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Swallowing their lies, when did this happen.

Not swallowing yours and their guff is pretty easy really. Your nationalist views appear to be more attuned to UKIP than mine.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Swallowing their lies, when did this happen.

Not swallowing yours and their guff is pretty easy really. Your nationalist views appear to be more attuned to UKIP than mine.
		
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You are just being silly now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 19, 2017)

Why don't you two just ignore each other instead of bickering like two teenage school kids tit for tat ! Getting worse than the tennis match between SILH and SR.


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are just being silly now.
		
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Not as silly as you inferring I have swallowed any UKIP guff but as it's Sunday I'm willing to put your silliness down to the ramblings of a confused old soul.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Oi! I'm an ethnic minority and should be getting lots of grants from the SNP. I bring multiculturalism...:ears:
		
Click to expand...

.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don't you two just ignore each other instead of bickering like two teenage school kids tit for tat ! Getting worse than the tennis match between SILH and SR.
		
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I do try to........ good advice


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don't you two just ignore each other instead of bickering like two teenage school kids tit for tat ! Getting worse than the tennis match between SILH and SR.
		
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Ok, as long as you take your own advice.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don't you two just ignore each other instead of bickering like two teenage school kids tit for tat ! Getting worse than the tennis match between SILH and SR.
		
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Why don't you just ignore all of us instead pf playing the Prima Donna.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2017)

According to a Labour Lord, if Scotland gain independence and Labour are elected [I know:lol:] the rUK will not trade with then.

Anyone any idea how rUK Labour will replace the Â£48.5 billion gap that would leave in their economy


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2017)

Doon, I wouldn't be worrying about the nonsense this buffoon has spoken. I'd take more notice of Oscar the Grouch in the his rubbish bin.


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## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2017)

http://edinburghengineer.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/investor-perception-of-todays-scots.html

An interesting perspective


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Doon, I wouldn't be worrying about the nonsense this buffoon has spoken. I'd take more notice of Oscar the Grouch in the his rubbish bin.
		
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I don't, I just wonder at the level of desperation that made him say it, and whither any fool would believe it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2017)

I know. The thing is, businesses decide who they trade with, not govts. This idiot is detatched from reality.


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## IanM (Feb 20, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know. The thing is, businesses decide who they trade with, not govts. This idiot is detatched from reality.
		
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.....if Governments get out of their way....


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			According to a Labour Lord, if Scotland gain independence and Labour are elected [I know:lol:] the rUK will not trade with then.

Anyone any idea how rUK Labour will replace the Â£48.5 billion gap that would leave in their economy

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Buy stuff from other countries I guess.  Ireland, Japan, India and Canada do reasonable whiskies.  I think there is a bakery in Milton Keynes that do a passable Tartan Shortbread as well.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Buy stuff from other countries I guess.  *Ireland, Japan, India and Canada do reasonable whiskies.*  I think there is a bakery in Milton Keynes that do a passable Tartan Shortbread as well.
		
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So they might in your opinion, but life's too short to drink "reasonable" whiskies; either drink the proper stuff or don't bother.


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## IanM (Feb 20, 2017)

Well I passed off a nip of Penderyn to a gruff Scotsman at the weekend as a drop from this homeland


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Buy stuff from other countries I guess.  Ireland, Japan, India and Canada do reasonable whiskies.  I think there is a bakery in Milton Keynes that do a passable Tartan Shortbread as well.
		
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You have managed to have answered my question the wrong way round old boy.
Try again.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			So they might in your opinion, but life's too short to drink "reasonable" whiskies; either drink the proper stuff or don't bother.
		
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I like whisky and at a recent Whisky evening we had six good ones to try without knowing which we were drinking.  The top one was an Indian and the third was Japanese. Second was an 18 year Glenomorangie.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You have managed to have answered my question the wrong way round old boy.
Try again.
		
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OK.  
There is a bakery in Milton Keynes that do a passable Tartan Shortbread and Ireland, Japan, India and Canada do reasonable whiskies. There you are the other way round :thup:
.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			OK.  
There is a bakery in Milton Keynes that do a passable Tartan Shortbread and Ireland, Japan, India and Canada do reasonable whiskies. There you are the other way round :thup:
.
		
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For the second time of asking, why don't you simply try to answer the question.
I shall repeat it for clarity.

A senior Labour politician threatens to cease trade with an independent Scotland. 
If this happens how will rUK plug the Â£48.5b gap in THEIR budget.
Clue.......goods outwards NOT inwards.


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## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For the second time of asking, why don't you simply try to answer the question.
I shall repeat it for clarity.

A senior Labour politician threatens to cease trade with an independent Scotland. 
If this happens how will rUK plug the Â£48.5b gap in THEIR budget.
Clue.......goods outwards NOT inwards.
		
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Doon, maybe have a second look at who exports to who. Scotland exports Â£49bn to the rest of the UK, and the rest of the UK exports Â£62bn to Scotland. By only painting half the picture it looks like you are putting in a bit of spin. 

As to the numpty Labour Lord, Project Fear starting early.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Doon, maybe have a second look at who exports to who. Scotland exports Â£49bn to the rest of the UK, and the rest of the UK exports Â£62bn to Scotland. By only painting half the picture it looks like you are putting in a bit of spin. 

As to the numpty Labour Lord, Project Fear starting early.
		
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Yes....I was aware of the difference but in error put the lower figure in instead of the higher Â£62bn.
Not putting any spin on it, just a curious rhetorical question as to how rUk would fund the now Â£62bn loss.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 21, 2017)

Surely it would only be a Â£13 billion loss as if we weren't trading at all with Scotland then we wouldn't be buying any of their exports. 

I suspect that the correct answer to your question is that the senior Labour politician is a total bell end and has no idea what he's talking about. Either that or in the brave new post-Brexit world we will be living in we will be trading globally to such an extent that the loss of trade with Scotland will be a drop in the ocean compared to the trillions we'll be trading with the rest of the world.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For the second time of asking, why don't you simply try to answer the question.
I shall repeat it for clarity.

A senior Labour politician threatens to cease trade with an independent Scotland. 
If this happens how will rUK plug the Â£48.5b gap in THEIR budget.
Clue.......goods outwards NOT inwards.
		
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If you believe idiotic stories like that then you must be either hyper gullible or as I expect taking another opportunity to troll it up.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			If you believe idiotic stories like that then you must be either hyper gullible or as I expect taking another opportunity to troll it up.
		
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After UKIP and Brexit I am under the impression that many UK residents are hyper gullible to unscrupulous politicians.
I am just trying to kill off this serious statement from a high ranking UK Labour politician.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I like whisky and at a recent Whisky evening we had six good ones to try without knowing which we were drinking.  The top one was an Indian and the third was Japanese. Second was an 18 year Glenomorangie.
		
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And if the lighter ones suit your palate then that's fine.  My idea of the proper stuff comes off of Islay, and is full of smoke & peat.  No disrespect to the Indians or the Japanese but I can't see them getting close to that, and if I never had a Glenmorangie again I wouldn't miss it; Laphroaig, Ardbeg, Caol Ila & Bowmore I would miss.


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## Paperboy (Feb 21, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			And if the lighter ones suit your palate then that's fine.  My idea of the proper stuff comes off of Islay, and is full of smoke & peat.  No disrespect to the Indians or the Japanese but I can't see them getting close to that, and if I never had a Glenmorangie again I wouldn't miss it; Laphroaig, Ardbeg, Caol Ila & Bowmore I would miss.
		
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I'd miss none of those Rich, don't like the peaty ones at all.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			And if the lighter ones suit your palate then that's fine.  My idea of the proper stuff comes off of Islay, and is full of smoke & peat.  No disrespect to the Indians or the Japanese but I can't see them getting close to that, and if I never had a Glenmorangie again I wouldn't miss it; Laphroaig, Ardbeg, Caol Ila & Bowmore I would miss.
		
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Don't knock it until you've tried it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely it would only be a Â£13 billion loss as if we weren't trading at all with Scotland then we wouldn't be buying any of their exports. 

I suspect that the correct answer to your question is that the senior Labour politician is a total bell end and has no idea what he's talking about. Either that or in the brave new post-Brexit world we will be living in we will be trading globally to such an extent that the loss of trade with Scotland will be a drop in the ocean compared to the trillions we'll be trading with the rest of the world.
		
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Not quite sure what's going to happen to the UK Trade Balance when we leave the EU without a deal and have to fall back on WTO trading rules for our trade with the EU - as we will for all trade until we have negotiated individual deals with the RoW.  I'm thinking that UK-RoW trade deals won't just happen overnight.

And as Scotland is in the UK the same concerns apply.  But of course for the EU and all other RoW countries it will be the Westminster government that will be deciding the trade deal that is best for the UK - with the Scottish government having little influence given a Tory Majority government likely for the next 3 elections (at least).

So a fair question to be asked would be whether Scotland would be better off negotiating it's own trade deals with the EU and RoW - or just accepting whatever deals Westminster comes up with.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not quite sure what's going to happen to the UK Trade Balance when we leave the EU without a deal and have to fall back on WTO trading rules for our trade with the EU - as we will for all trade until we have negotiated individual deals with the RoW.  I'm thinking that UK-RoW trade deals won't just happen overnight.

And as Scotland is in the UK the same concerns apply.  But of course for the EU and all other RoW countries it will be the Westminster government that will be deciding the trade deal that is best for the UK - with the Scottish government having little influence given a Tory Majority government likely for the next 3 elections (at least).

So a fair question to be asked would be whether Scotland would be better off negotiating it's own trade deals with the EU and RoW - or just accepting whatever deals Westminster comes up with.
		
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Scotland cannot make trade deals (as you call them) on their own while part of the UK.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland cannot make trade deals (as you call them) on their own while part of the UK.
		
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This. No matter how much little Jimmy squeals Scotland is part of the UK, same as Wales, Isle of Man, Isle of Wight, Anglesey, N. Ireland and any other area that believes it is unique. It's quite a basic fact that some people need to get their heads around.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland cannot make trade deals (as you call them) on their own while part of the UK.
		
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You got my point exactly


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## Val (Feb 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You got my point exactly
		
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Point remains, Scotland cannot negotiate trade deals on its own......full stop


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So a fair question to be asked would be whether Scotland would be better off negotiating it's own trade deals with the EU and RoW - or just accepting whatever deals Westminster comes up with.
		
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Surely it would be better for Scotland to wait and see what happens with Brexit and see what deals are negotiated. 

And is there really any other option in any case? Assuming the despicable fish woman calls for a 2nd referendum tomorrow, it's going to take several months to get everything in place and for both sides to conduct their campaigns. By the time the vote is conducted and the result is known, even in the best case scenario, it will probably be this time next year. Assuming it's a vote for independence there would then be the negotiations on the terms of Scotland leaving the UK - how much debt they are responsible for, what assets they are entitled to etc - that by then the results of the Brexit negotiations will be known. Why not just see what happens in the next two years with the Brexit negotiations and then make a decision based on having all the information available?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You got my point exactly
		
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No I never.   You suggested Scotland could make a choice on making their own trade deals while part of the UK.  I said they cant.


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## lobthewedge (Feb 21, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely it would be better for Scotland to wait and see what happens with Brexit and see what deals are negotiated.
		
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This would be a far too sensible and logical position for our snp overlords to take.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			This would be a far too sensible and logical position for our snp overlords to take.
		
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I think they are quietly going to do that. 
Lately they seem to be just going through the motions, point scoring and storing useful anti Scots comments eg Mandelson's recent crazy  outburst.

They really need to wait about four years before they will have a defining majority.....to close at present.........IMVHO of course.


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## lobthewedge (Feb 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think they are quietly going to do that. 
Lately they seem to be just going through the motions, point scoring and storing useful anti Scots comments eg Mandelson's recent crazy  outburst.

They really need to wait about four years before they will have a defining majority.....to close at present.........IMVHO of course.
		
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The majority of people I speak to would sooner wee nicola and her minions just got on with trying to run the country. They could maybe sort out our failing schools for starters, rather than points scoring and stropping about a uk decision that is now out of her hands.

And who gives a monkeys nut about anything Peter mandelscum has to say?  The man is a repugnant piece of filth!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			The majority of people I speak to would sooner wee nicola and her minions just got on with trying to run the country. They could maybe sort out our failing schools for starters, rather than points scoring and stropping about a uk decision that is now out of her hands.

And who gives a monkeys nut about anything Peter mandelscum has to say?  The man is a repugnant piece of filth!
		
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I think the SNP are doing a pretty good job of running the country. I think the Scottish public do as well as they continue to vote for them in big numbers.
The two alternative parties are so lacking in any form of intelligent life that I shudder to think what either of them would do. In the highly unlikely scenario of being elected of course.


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## Val (Feb 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the SNP are doing a pretty good job of running the country. I think the Scottish public do as well as they continue to vote for them in big numbers.
The two alternative parties are so lacking in any form of intelligent life that I shudder to think what either of them would do. In the highly unlikely scenario of being elected of course.
		
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I'm calling BS on that, the SNP are doing a crap job. Their only saving grace is that Labour are no longer a viable option nationally never mind in Scotland. The only alternative to the SNP in Scotland are the Torries and I've more chance of a lottery win than they have in securing power in Scotland.

I don't recall foodbanks (or as many foodbanks) when Labour took over devolved powers in Scotland.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the SNP are doing a pretty good job of running the country. I think the Scottish public do as well as they continue to vote for them in big numbers.
The two alternative parties are so lacking in any form of intelligent life that I shudder to think what either of them would do. In the highly unlikely scenario of being elected of course.
		
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Not buying that, they are awful. Completely failing while obsessing about constitutional issues instead of running the country. I wonder who they'll find to blame if/when they get independence?!

Only reason they keep getting elected is there's no credible opposition


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## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2017)

Are there not ever any worthy independents standing?  Think we let ourselves down by rarely looking beyond mainstream parties... Especially local council elections...


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## Hobbit (Feb 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the SNP are doing a pretty good job of running the country. I think the Scottish public do as well as they continue to vote for them in big numbers.
The two alternative parties are so lacking in any form of intelligent life that I shudder to think what either of them would do. In the highly unlikely scenario of being elected of course.
		
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In terms of social policies they have great messages and policies. In terms of funding them, they are turning Scotland into the Greek member of the UK. And if they do achieve independence it will start with Scotland in the same position it was at the time of Act of Union - BANKRUPT!!!

If you believe the SNP are doing a good job, cut your gullible pills


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the SNP are doing a pretty good job of ruining the country.
		
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I only had to change one letter to make your post more factually accurate.

It's easy to buy votes which is what the SNP are doing currently. What sort of tax rises or cuts to services would you be prepared to accept to achieve independence?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

Val said:



			Point remains, Scotland cannot negotiate trade deals on its own......full stop
		
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Yes I know 

No matter what trade arrangements that the Scottish government might feel are best for Scotland in a post-Brexit UK - what best works for Westminster, in respect of deals and compromises, is what Scotland will get.  And if a Scottish government doesn't like it then tough.  

That and the prospect of a Tory majority government following the next 3 General Elections - so a Westminster Tory Government until 2035? Now that's a prospect (eeek!!)

The SNP will be out to make hay.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No I never.   You suggested Scotland could make a choice on making their own trade deals while part of the UK.  I said they cant.
		
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I was talking about an Independent Scotland.  Sorry - thought that was obvious.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

Val said:



			I'm calling BS on that, the SNP are doing a crap job. Their only saving grace is that Labour are no longer a viable option nationally never mind in Scotland. The only alternative to the SNP in Scotland are the Torries and I've more chance of a lottery win than they have in securing power in Scotland.

I don't recall foodbanks (or as many foodbanks) when Labour took over devolved powers in Scotland.
		
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I'll just note that there are very well used foodbanks in the generally affluent part of England where I live - and that's under a Tory government.


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## Hobbit (Feb 22, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll just note that there are very well used foodbanks in the generally affluent part of England where I live - and that's under a Tory government.
		
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Two wrongs don't make a right


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Two wrongs don't make a right
		
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Absolutely - but foodbank in Scotland does not mean that SNP are doing any worse than any other party would do.  Foodbanks are UK-wide - not just for an SNP government Scotland


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 22, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was talking about an Independent Scotland.  Sorry - thought that was obvious.
		
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Sorry SILH, not obvious at all, and the fact you finished it saying "or should they accept what Westminster negotiate" further muddies the water.

On this note, why do you think Scotland (either independent or within the UK) would be able to negotiate better trade deals, compared to what "Westminster" could. (by the way, it would make you seem a lot less biased/partisan if you just referred to the UK government, rather than trying to drive the Scotland v Westminster wedge)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Sorry SILH, not obvious at all, and the fact you finished it saying "or should they accept what Westminster negotiate" further muddies the water.

On this note, why do you think Scotland (either independent or within the UK) would be able to negotiate better trade deals, compared to what "Westminster" could. (by the way, it would make you seem a lot less biased/partisan if you just referred to the UK government, rather than trying to drive the Scotland v Westminster wedge)
		
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*I'm* not saying an independent Scotland would.  But the SNP will claim that it could; that the UK being out of the Single Market and Customs Union will be damaging to Scotland, and that Scotland will will be stuck with whatever the Westminster government decides for the UK.  The prospect of a majority Tory government until 2035 will be used by the SNP to compound that 'issue'.  Anyway - we'll see.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Sorry SILH, not obvious at all, and the fact you finished it saying "or should they accept what Westminster negotiate" further muddies the water.

On this note, why do you think Scotland (either independent or within the UK) would be able to negotiate better trade deals, compared to what "Westminster" could. (by the way, it would make you seem a lot less biased/partisan if you just referred to the UK government, rather than trying to drive the Scotland v Westminster wedge)
		
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Well - that's how easy it is to misconstrue words.  I didn't actually suggest in any way that Scotland might be able to do trade deals whilst part of the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Sorry SILH, not obvious at all, and the fact you finished it saying "or should they accept what Westminster negotiate" further muddies the water.

On this note, why do you think Scotland (either independent or within the UK) would be able to negotiate better trade deals, compared to what "Westminster" could. (by the way, it would make you seem a lot less biased/partisan if you just referred to the UK government, rather than trying to drive the Scotland v Westminster wedge)
		
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hmmm ''Westminster'' vs ''despicable fish woman''.........I'm calling double standards on that one.

Do you know how much time the deputy speaker allocated to the 57 SNP MP's on the recent A50 debate in the ''UK'' governments home ?
If you do you will then probably understand why many Scots refer to it as ''Westminster''.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			In terms of social policies they have great messages and policies. In terms of funding them, they are turning Scotland into the Greek member of the UK. And if they do achieve independence it will start with Scotland in the same position it was at the time of Act of Union - BANKRUPT!!!

If you believe the SNP are doing a good job, cut your gullible pills
		
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Have you ever wondered why we have GERW and GERS but no GERE ?
Someone must have an explanation for that ?

BTW as I keep saying they have a fixed allowance from Westminster so they cannot 'overspend'.
Mind you most of that allowance is used to pay off the massive debt that decades of Westminster parties has built up.
Decades that Scotland has not received it's fair share of funding and has not had any say in the matter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Sorry SILH, not obvious at all, and the fact you finished it saying "or should they accept what Westminster negotiate" further muddies the water.

On this note, why do you think Scotland (either independent or within the UK) would be able to negotiate better trade deals, compared to what "Westminster" could. (by the way, it would make you seem a lot less biased/partisan if you just referred to the UK government, rather than trying to drive the Scotland v Westminster wedge)
		
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Scots have two parliaments and governments - that's why I refer to the UK Government as Westminster - and the Scottish Government as Holyrood.  Nothing to do with 'bias'.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 22, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I'm* not saying an independent Scotland would.  But the SNP will claim that it could; that the UK being out of the Single Market and Customs Union will be damaging to Scotland, and that Scotland will will be stuck with whatever the Westminster government decides for the UK.  The prospect of a majority Tory government until 2035 will be used by the SNP to compound that 'issue'.  Anyway - we'll see.
		
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OK I understand that, but do you think they would ever be able to negotiate better, from a much much smaller country? As if not, you must accept they are talking rubbish.



Doon frae Troon said:



			hmmm ''Westminster'' vs ''despicable fish woman''.........I'm calling double standards on that one.

Do you know how much time the deputy speaker allocated to the 57 SNP MP's on the recent A50 debate in the ''UK'' governments home ?
If you do you will then probably understand why many Scots refer to it as ''Westminster''.
		
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Happily have never referred to her in that way, so I don't mind pointing it out.
I don't know actually, how much was it? And how much time was allocated to the other parties? If the SNP MP's were allocated disproportionately less time, do we know why (other than conspiracy theories)






SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Scots have two parliaments and governments - that's why I refer to the UK Government as Westminster - and the Scottish Government as Holyrood.  Nothing to do with 'bias'.
		
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But it is an inherent bias at the very least, if not deliberate, as you tend to use (it appears, even if not mean) Westminster in negative sense.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			OK I understand that, but do you think they would ever be able to negotiate better, from a much much smaller country? As if not, you must accept they are talking rubbish.



Happily have never referred to her in that way, so I don't mind pointing it out.
I don't know actually, how much was it? And how much time was allocated to the other parties? If the SNP MP's were allocated disproportionately less time, do we know why (other than conspiracy theories)






But it is an inherent bias at the very least, if not deliberate, as you tend to use (it appears, even if not mean) Westminster in negative sense.
		
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Doesn't matter what *I *believe about trade deals an independent Scotland could strike - the *SNP *will say a Scottish Government (Holyrood) could strike better deals than the UK Government (Westminster), simply on the grounds that exiting the SM and CU will be damaging to the UK economy - and by extension the Scottish economy.

And though others from north of border may well disagree - my feeling is that the UK government tends to be referred to as _Westminster _by many if not most Scots.  Certainly in my experience it is.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 22, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Doesn't matter what *I *believe about trade deals an independent Scotland could strike - the *SNP *will say a Scottish Government (Holyrood) could strike better deals than the UK Government (Westminster), simply on the grounds that exiting the SM and CU will be damaging to the UK economy - and by extension the Scottish economy.

And though others from north of border may well disagree - my feeling is that the UK government tends to be referred to as _Westminster _by many if not most Scots.  Certainly in my experience it is.
		
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And if the SNP do say that, what would be your opinion on this? Would you agree, or criticise them as much as you do (at times) the UK gov?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 24, 2017)

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...nce-bill/ar-AAnk64n?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp

First SNP private members bill set to go through despite the dreadful efforts of this Tory low life.


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## lobthewedge (Feb 24, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...nce-bill/ar-AAnk64n?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp

First SNP private members bill set to go through despite the dreadful efforts of this Tory low life.
		
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Struggling to see what this numpty yittering on for 90 minutes has to do with the possibility of a 2nd referendum on scottish independance?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			Struggling to see what this numpty yittering on for 90 minutes has to do with the possibility of a 2nd referendum on scottish independance?
		
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I'm sure that the despicable fish woman and the SNP will find a way to make it a significant factor in Scottish independence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 24, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			Struggling to see what this numpty yittering on for 90 minutes has to do with the possibility of a 2nd referendum on scottish independance?
		
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Once again it shows the arrogance of Westminster MP's towards the SNP elected members.

I doubt that any normal thinking person would disagree with this private members bill.
It has a lot of support and should have been nodded through......... not fought against just for the sake of 'politics'.


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## lobthewedge (Feb 24, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again it shows the arrogance of Westminster MP's towards the SNP elected members.
'.
		
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So you base this on the actions of one individual mp, who's behaviour was roundly condemned by other MPs, even from his own party?

Must try harder, even for you this is pretty thin!


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## chippa1909 (Feb 25, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			Struggling to see what this numpty yittering on for 90 minutes has to do with the possibility of a 2nd referendum on scottish independance?
		
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Because Philip Davies sniggering about women murdered through domestic violence just goes to show what type of government we have, and will have for the forseeable future.

There is no sewer deep enough for these Tory *******s to sink into.


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## HankMarvin (Feb 25, 2017)

Wee Jimmie crankie says she doesn't want it call indiref2. Has she said she will feck off when she loses again or will she demand a recount till it falls in her favour


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

HankMarvin said:



			Wee Jimmie crankie says she doesn't want it call indiref2. Has she said she will feck off when she loses again or will she demand a recount till it falls in her favour
		
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You are correct, at the moment she is the only UK politician trying to keep Scotland within the UK since Brexit.
All of her workable offers have been refused by the Tories.
England and Wales are forcing her hand into a vote she does not want.

Independence with a credible majority is inevitable but still a few years down the line. IMO
I still think the SNP will win if a vote is called before 2020, but the vote will be close and cause another Brexit type split in Scotland.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again it shows the arrogance of Westminster MP's towards the SNP elected members.

I doubt that any normal thinking person would disagree with this private members bill.
It has a lot of support and should have been nodded through......... not fought against just for the sake of 'politics'.
		
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No it doesn't. That is a feeble link. One person tried to block this, he failed and it was voted through 138-1. If you are trying to use this to bolster your cause then you really are struggling.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No it doesn't. That is a feeble link. One person tried to block this, he failed and it was voted through 138-1. If you are trying to use this to bolster your cause then you really are struggling.
		
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Not so sure about that.
The Westminster government was dragging it's heels on signing up to the charter and this Tory clown was trying to talk it out.
Well done to the decent 138 MP's who gave up half a day to vote it through.I wonder what percentage of them were Tories.


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## ger147 (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not so sure about that.
The Westminster government was dragging it's heels on signing up to the charter and this Tory clown was trying to talk it out.
Well done to the decent 138 MP's who gave up half a day to vote it through.I wonder what percentage of them were Tories.

Click to expand...

If you really are curious just look it up. All votes in Parliament are a matter of public record and published on Parliament's website right down to individual MP level.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*You are correct, at the moment she is the only UK politician trying to keep Scotland within the UK since Brexit.*
All of her workable offers have been refused by the Tories.
England and Wales are forcing her hand into a vote she does not want.

Independence with a credible majority is inevitable but still a few years down the line. IMO
I still think the SNP will win if a vote is called before 2020, but the vote will be close and cause another Brexit type split in Scotland.
		
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Ha Haaaa , Haaaaaaaaaa, Ho, Haaaaaaaaaa, Oh dear! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Hooooo :rofl:  Thats so funny, Haaaaaaaaa!!!!!!  Oh dear I must sit down and recover.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

ger147 said:



			If you really are curious just look it up. All votes in Parliament are a matter of public record and published on Parliament's website right down to individual MP level.
		
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Good idea....also spot which party MP's signed off the 50 proposed amendments.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again it shows the arrogance of Westminster MP's towards the SNP elected members.

I doubt that any normal thinking person would disagree with this private members bill.
It has a lot of support and should have been nodded through......... not fought against just for the sake of 'politics'.
		
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You're wide if the mark on this one it has nothing to do with the SNP, just westminster's most notorious misogynist continuing his personal crusade against women.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good idea....also spot which party MP's signed off the 50 proposed amendments.
		
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The amendments were SNP gerrymandering and attempting to disrupt the process of leaving the EU, or if you were to drill down a bit the underlying reason was to create further frustrations  for the rUK so they will be happy to see Scotland leave.  Be in no doubt the SNP's stance on the EU is nothing to do with Trade or EU membership.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The amendments were SNP gerrymandering and attempting to disrupt the process of leaving the EU, or if you were to drill down a bit the underlying reason was to create further frustrations  for the rUK so they will be happy to see Scotland leave.  Be in no doubt the SNP's stance on the EU is nothing to do with Trade or EU membership.
		
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Nothing to do with that......I was posting about the 50 proposed amendments to attempt to talk down the SNP's private members bill.

You know, the one that the Tories were gerymandering and attempting to disrupt the role of the Westminster parliament within the UK.


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## lobthewedge (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are correct, at the moment *she is the only UK politician trying to keep Scotland within the UK since Brexit*.
All of her workable offers have been refused by the Tories.
England and Wales are* forcing her hand into a vote she does not want*.
		
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Do you get the delusion pills free on the nhs, or are you just back to sniffing the glue?


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 25, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're wide if the mark on this one it has nothing to do with the SNP, just westminster's most notorious misogynist continuing his personal crusade against women.
		
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Correct. Unpleasant individual who is thankfully, on the whole, powerless. Disturbing that he keeps getting elected. Presumably he is an a pig with a rosette constituency.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2017)

Sadiq I salute you...

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...the-same-as-racism/ar-AAnkYLk?ocid=spartandhp


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Sadiq I salute you...

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...the-same-as-racism/ar-AAnkYLk?ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

Really......you do realise that by implication he has branded every independent former Commonwealth country racist and bigoted. Not to mention the Brexiters voters.

Disappointed by him, I thought he was smarter than that. 
He obviously does not have a clue about Scotland


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

Khan retracted statement already... that was quick........silly boy.

Maybees he did not check what his speech writers had told him what to say before addressing the massed crowds of the Scottish Labour Party conference.


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## ger147 (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Khan retracted statement already... that was quick........silly boy.

Maybees he did not check what his speech writers had told him what to say before addressing the massed crowds of the Scottish Labour Party conference.
		
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Where have you seen reports of it being withdrawn?

It's still there on his Twitter account as it is on Dugdale's...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Where have you seen reports of it being withdrawn?

It's still there on his Twitter account as it is on Dugdale's...
		
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Don't laugh.......BBC


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## ger147 (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't laugh.......BBC
		
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I've seen nothing of the sort on the BBC. He made the speech as tweeted and he hasn't withdrawn it at all.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

ger147 said:



			I've seen nothing of the sort on the BBC. He made the speech as tweeted and he hasn't withdrawn it at all.
		
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Try 'the news where we are' I am reading it ATM


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## ger147 (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Try 'the news where we are' I am reading it ATM
		
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I've watched the video of his interview by yhe BBC.

His speech has not been withdrawn.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't laugh.......BBC
		
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39089604

He hasn't retracted - just clarified


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39089604

He hasn't retracted - just clarified
		
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Clarified eh:lol: that would be a ' sorry I did not really mean what I said statement' then


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## ger147 (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Clarified eh:lol: that would be a ' sorry I did not really mean what I said statement' then
		
Click to expand...

So just to confirm, Sadiq Khan has not withdrawn his statement and did indeed give said speech as advertised in advance on social media.

Thank you for "clarifying".


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really......you do realise that by implication he has branded every independent former Commonwealth country racist and bigoted. Not to mention the Brexiters voters.

Disappointed by him, I thought he was smarter than that. 
He obviously does not have a clue about Scotland
		
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But it's ok for the SNP spokesman to brand Brexiters in the same way, double standards as normal DfT


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## Hobbit (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Clarified eh:lol: that would be a ' sorry I did not really mean what I said statement' then
		
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I see nothing racist or bigoted in his speech. But without a doubt the interpretation by some narrow minded, opportunistic individuals looking for political mileage where there isn't any is disappointing but not unexpected. Large chip on shoulder springs to mind.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			But it's ok for the SNP spokesman to brand Brexiters in the same way, double standards as normal DfT
		
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Post #956 [sigh]


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I see nothing racist or bigoted in his speech. But without a doubt the interpretation by some narrow minded, opportunistic individuals looking for political mileage where there isn't any is disappointing but not unexpected. Large chip on shoulder springs to mind.
		
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I know you are in Spain, are you aware where he was speaking?


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Post #956 [sigh]
		
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Unable to see into the future so not sure what Post #956 has in store. Is that when you admit that some members of the SNP just might be racist bigots.


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## drdel (Feb 25, 2017)

Do any of you guys get time to sleep or play golf?


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2017)

drdel said:



			Do any of you guys get time to sleep or play golf?
		
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Normally 4 times a week but down to 3 because of the weather.


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## drdel (Feb 25, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Normally 4 times a week but down to 3 because of the weather. 

Click to expand...

I guess it might be a tad windy and wet in N/Devon this time of year !


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2017)

drdel said:



			I guess it might be a tad windy and wet in N/Devon this time of year !
		
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Been lucky with the wet but certainly felt the wind.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 26, 2017)

Brilliant, the Mayor of London speaks at the SLAB conference in Perth and gives a massive boost to the SNP.

Ill advised is putting it mildly, death knell sounding for Scottish Labour.


https://stv.tv/news/politics/1381667-london-mayor-scottish-nationalists-are-not-racists/


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## Old Skier (Feb 26, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brilliant, the Mayor of London speaks at the SLAB conference in Perth and gives a massive boost to the SNP.

Ill advised is putting it mildly, death knell sounding for Scottish Labour.


https://stv.tv/news/politics/1381667-london-mayor-scottish-nationalists-are-not-racists/

Click to expand...

Labour is finished in its present form in the whole of the U.K.

I take from. Your nill response your quite happy with the SNP spokesperson tarring all those that voted out of the EU as racists and extreme right wingers.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 26, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brilliant, the Mayor of London speaks at the SLAB conference in Perth and gives a massive boost to the SNP.

Ill advised is putting it mildly, death knell sounding for Scottish Labour.


https://stv.tv/news/politics/1381667-london-mayor-scottish-nationalists-are-not-racists/

Click to expand...

I think what was ill judged was Nicola sturgeons trumpesque tweets about the speech.


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know you are in Spain, are you aware where he was speaking?
		
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Spain isn't on the moon. Yes I'm aware. Sometimes blunt speech is needed. The SNP are taking Scotland to hell in a handcart. 

I have no problem whatsoever with independence, indeyref2 or whatever it will be called. But I can't for the life of me understand how blinkered the Scottish electorate is to the financial meltdown the SNP are creating to win the hearts and minds.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 26, 2017)

Hells teeth......Khan gets it so wrong that even Andrew Neil takes the SNP's side.......that's a first for sure.

Dugdale looking more and more like a 5th former out of there depth.


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## Old Skier (Feb 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I take from. Your nill response your quite happy with the SNP spokesperson tarring all those that voted out of the EU as racists and extreme right wingers.
		
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I take it you are then. SNP, Scotlands answer to UKIP and Trump.


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I take it you are then. SNP, Scotlands answer to UKIP and Trump.
		
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Harsh! I'd sooner have Trump than Sturgeon. At least he's an inept politician.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 28, 2017)

Nice bit of clarity from the despicable fisher woman
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i...d?shareToken=e3e9649b8eaa6a00e6532272e3bd156a


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2017)

Should have booked a smaller hall.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-resurgence-continues/#comments

Remember at least half of that audience are probably media.


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## delc (Mar 5, 2017)

It seems a bit strange to me that Mrs May is arguing that Scotland is better off remaining in a larger Union (UK), but the whole UK isn't (EU)! &#128580;


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Should have booked a smaller hall.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-resurgence-continues/#comments

Remember at least half of that audience are probably media.
		
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Are you worried Scotland is becoming a 1 party nation?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Are you worried Scotland is becoming a 1 party nation?
		
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Please don't tell me you live in Scotland and are unaware that the SNP do not have a majority at Holyrood.
The voting system is designed so one party will not dominate.
Only a handful of non SNP MSP's are elected, the rest are list members.

If you want to view a one party state try Westminster.

This makes interesting reading.
https://www.snp.org/record


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please don't tell me you live in Scotland and are unaware that the SNP do not have a majority at Holyrood.
The voting system is designed so one party will not dominate.
Only a handful of non SNP MSP's are elected, the rest are list members.

If you want to view a one party state try Westminster.

This makes interesting reading.
https://www.snp.org/record

Click to expand...

Interesting in what way.  It has all been subsidised by the rest of the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Interesting in what way.  It has all been subsidised by the rest of the UK.
		
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I know it's great......keep paying your taxes boys.:whoo:

Just imagine how poorer we would be without the debt of the UK hanging round our necks.


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## drdel (Mar 5, 2017)

I see a poll suggests the majority of Scots are against a second ballot


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2017)

drdel said:



			I see a poll suggests the majority of Scots are against a second ballot
		
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:lol: Nice try........the BMG poll says 51% Scots polled oppose Indyref2 before 2019.


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## Old Skier (Mar 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol: Nice try........the BMG poll says 51% Scots polled oppose Indyref2 before 2019.
		
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There not Scots, there people living in Scotland or did they just poll Scots?


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please don't tell me you live in Scotland and are unaware that the SNP do not have a majority at Holyrood.
The voting system is designed so one party will not dominate.
Only a handful of non SNP MSP's are elected, the rest are list members.

If you want to view a one party state try Westminster.

This makes interesting reading.
https://www.snp.org/record

Click to expand...

It is a fantastic record. But it doesn't mention anything about the deficit of Â£14.9 billion and a GDP of 9.5%. A worse deficit than Greece, and way beyond the 4.5% requirement to join the EU. 

Is that a record to be proud of?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It is a fantastic record. But it doesn't mention anything about the deficit of Â£14.9 billion and a GDP of 9.5%. A worse deficit than Greece, and way beyond the 4.5% requirement to join the EU. 

Is that a record to be proud of?
		
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I am more confident that Scotland can sort it's finances out as an independent country that I am of Scotland shackled to the huge debt of the UK.
Most of the money that Scotland raises is used to service that Westminster debt.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am more confident that Scotland can sort it's finances out as an independent country that I am of Scotland shackled to the huge debt of the UK.
Most of the money that Scotland raises is used to service that Westminster debt.
		
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Scotland has added more proportionally to that debt than any of the other UK countries.   Did you read Hobbits post and then just ignore the facts in it?


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am more confident that Scotland can sort it's finances out as an independent country that I am of Scotland shackled to the huge debt of the UK.
Most of the money that Scotland raises is used to service that Westminster debt.
		
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Really? Do you have facts to back that up? Or is it a finger in the wind?

Tax revenue in Scotland has dropped from Â£54 billion to Â£43 billion, actually its at Â£42.360 billion, courtesy of the drop in oil revenue. *Spending is at Â£63 billion!!!

*Scotland receives more than Wales and England per head, and very marginally less than NI. And when there's a disaster, like the flooding around Aberdeen last winter or the bird flu epidemic several years ago, the extra money comes from Westminster, and is on top of the Barnett return and the locally raised taxes.

Wake up man. By all means go for independence, and I'll vote for it too, but do it with your eyes open. SNP spending will ruin Scotland. And if you've gained independence and are part of the EU, Germany will dictate how the country is run, just like Greece.

Scotland as an independent country, yes. Scotland as an independent country governed by the SNP and their frivolous spending, you're having a major belly laugh.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Really? Do you have facts to back that up? Or is it a finger in the wind?

Tax revenue in Scotland has dropped from Â£54 billion to Â£43 billion, actually its at Â£42.360 billion, courtesy of the drop in oil revenue. *Spending is at Â£63 billion!!!

*Scotland receives more than Wales and England per head, and very marginally less than NI. And when there's a disaster, like the flooding around Aberdeen last winter or the bird flu epidemic several years ago, the extra money comes from Westminster, and is on top of the Barnett return and the locally raised taxes.

Wake up man. By all means go for independence, and I'll vote for it too, but do it with your eyes open. SNP spending will ruin Scotland. And if you've gained independence and are part of the EU, Germany will dictate how the country is run, just like Greece.

Scotland as an independent country, yes. Scotland as an independent country governed by the SNP and their frivolous spending, you're having a major belly laugh.
		
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Tax revenue is a dogs dinner.....as Scottish exports from English air and sea ports are not registered as Scottish. 
I believe that when things get sorted we will be in a much stronger position than folk think.
Why do you think the rUK are desperate to keep us on board if we are a such financial basket case.
We are similar to the likes of Denmark/New Zealand/ Norway etc and they seem to be doing much better that the UK [pro rata]

We have a GERW and a GERS so why is there not an GERE figure.....what are they hiding with their dodgy bookkeeping

BTW it is not Westminster's money it is the UK's money. [or lack of money to be more precise]


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tax revenue is a dogs dinner.....as Scottish exports from English air and sea ports are not registered as Scottish. 
I believe that when things get sorted we will be in a much stronger position than folk think.
Why do you think the rUK are desperate to keep us on board if we are a such financial basket case.
We are similar to the likes of Denmark/New Zealand/ Norway etc and they seem to be doing much better that the UK [pro rata]

We have a GERW and a GERS so why is there not an GERE figure.....what are they hiding with their dodgy bookkeeping

BTW it is not Westminster's money it is the UK's money. [or lack of money to be more precise]
		
Click to expand...

Westminster decides where the money goes. 

However, the maths is simple. Tax money in, money spent, +20% of exports(vat etc minus whisky duty, which already shows in Scotland's number). So what is the tax on Â£11.4 billion of exports from Scotland through British ports... 20%? 

If you want to continue to believe the hype fed to you, crack on. All the numbers are readily available but it just suit the Indey's argument not to highlight them.

The desperate to keep onboard is quite simple. Which party would want to be in power when the Union breaks up, just like which party wants to be in power when the NHS finally breaks...?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

The cow in the caravan.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/the-cow-in-the-caravan/


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## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The cow in the caravan.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/the-cow-in-the-caravan/

Click to expand...

Well, I got as far as, "The UK is a unitary state to which Scotland belongs as a possession." It isn't a possession but it suits the idiots to say it is. 

Maybe if a Scot asked a Greek how much they enjoyed being ruled by the EU they might have a better idea of the truth, but it still wouldn't suit their agenda to believe it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Well, I got as far as, "The UK is a unitary state to which Scotland belongs as a possession." It isn't a possession but it suits the idiots to say it is. 

Maybe if a Scot asked a Greek how much they enjoyed being ruled by the EU they might have a better idea of the truth, but it still wouldn't suit their agenda to believe it.
		
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It is a possession now that the Sewell commission has been rendered useless.
We are stuck with this forever.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fine-print/#comments


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## drdel (Mar 6, 2017)

So a Scotland of 5+mill want independence from UK of 65mill to be junior to 350mill. Yet object to Uk 's desire to be independent.


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## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a possession now that the Sewell commission has been rendered useless.
We are stuck with this forever.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fine-print/#comments

Click to expand...

C'mon Doon, you post some great thoughtful stuff but that isn't even good enough to be toilet paper. The "poor hurt me" diatribe coming out of Scotland is getting a little thin. At least go for independence with ambition for Scotland to grow, not to get away from the nasty English parliament.

A question for you; what would change if Scotland became independent? All the institutions that Scotland has they will still have. All the bills they currently pay they'll still pay. What is the nirvana just over the horizon?

BTW, I'm all for Scottish independence. I just don't get the lack of honesty surrounding the campaign to get there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			C'mon Doon, you post some great thoughtful stuff but that isn't even good enough to be toilet paper. The "poor hurt me" diatribe coming out of Scotland is getting a little thin. At least go for independence with ambition for Scotland to grow, not to get away from the nasty English parliament.

A question for you; what would change if Scotland became independent? All the institutions that Scotland has they will still have. All the bills they currently pay they'll still pay. What is the nirvana just over the horizon?

BTW, I'm all for Scottish independence. I just don't get the lack of honesty surrounding the campaign to get there.[/QUOTE

I think the main thing would be a country that I am comfortable to live in, is inclusive, welcoming and something to be proud of.

England dominates the UK and has taken a serious lurch towards right wing politics. Many areas now appear to be exclusive and unfriendly towards 'people not like us'.
		
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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the main thing would be a country that I am comfortable to live in, is inclusive, welcoming and something to be proud of.

England dominates the UK and has taken a serious lurch towards right wing politics. Many areas now appear to be exclusive and unfriendly towards 'people not like us'.
		
Click to expand...


In the borough I live, at some of the schools for 90%+ of the pupils, English is not the first language... Whilst my Grandson was at one of these schools, in his class of 35 [iirc], there were sixteen different nationalities represented.... How is that not 'welcoming' ?  Do you genuinely honestly believe your local community would be as welcoming with this level of 'newcomers'?


And, the reason why folk have turned to the right is because the left seemingly have placed ordinary folk on ignore...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			In the borough I live, at some of the schools for 90%+ of the pupils, English is not the first language... Whilst my Grandson was at one of these schools, in his class of 35 [iirc], there were sixteen different nationalities represented.... How is that not 'welcoming' ?  Do you genuinely honestly believe your local community would be as welcoming with this level of 'newcomers'?


And, the reason why folk have turned to the right is because the left seemingly have placed ordinary folk on ignore...
		
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You may find this hard to believe but I was not thinking about immigrants when I said inclusive and welcoming..


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## delc (Mar 6, 2017)

drdel said:



			So a Scotland of 5+mill want independence from UK of 65mill to be junior to 350mill. Yet object to Uk 's desire to be independent.
		
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Looking at it the other way round, in her recent speech in Scotland, Mrs May told the Scots that staying in a bigger Union (the UK) is a good thing, whilst the whole UK leaving a bigger Union (the EU) is also a good thing! Both can't be right!

I believe that staying in the EU and the Single Market was the reason why Scotland voted to remain in the UK in the last Indyref, so if the UK leaves the EU there is no reason for Scotland to stay! Go for independence and the EU will probably welcome you with open arms, to teach England and Wales a lesson if nothing else! &#128512;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2017)

delc said:



			Looking at it the other way round, in her recent speech in Scotland, Mrs May told the Scots that staying in a bigger Union (the UK) is a good thing, whilst the whole UK leaving a bigger Union (the EU) is also a good thing! Both can't be right!

I believe that staying in the EU and the Single Market was the reason why Scotland voted to remain in the UK in the last Indyref, so if the UK leaves the EU there is no reason for Scotland to stay! Go for independence and the EU will probably welcome you with open arms, to teach England and Wales a lesson if nothing else! &#128512;
		
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May's speech to the Scottish Tories was one of astonishing condescension and chutzpah.

And you get idiots like the journalist Andrew Pierce asking why it is that we (England) should not have a vote to Kick -- Scotland -- Out (of the UK).  Nobody tell him that that is completely impossible, and that he is being extremely disingenuous and rabble-rousing?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 6, 2017)

Yes, Pierce is an idiot but the SNP are continuously being divisive and rabble rousing so no high ground to be taken there.


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## drdel (Mar 6, 2017)

Both you(SWILH) and Delc  are deliberately choosing to mix differing situations. Scotland benefits from the Union, but the UK will not benefit from the EU as the trends in policy are evident to anyone with an ounce of analytic ability can see.


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## Leftie (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...... the journalist Andrew Pierce asking why it is that we (England) should not have a vote to Kick -- Scotland -- Out (of the UK).
		
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You obviously heard a different part of that programme than I did.  The part I listened to was more along the lines of if England were (hypothetically) given a referendum on whether Scotland should stay or leave the UK, which way would it go.  Not quite as emotive as your interpretation.  There again, I didn't hear the end of the programme so you might have picked the right result


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

drdel said:



			Both you(SWILH) and Delc  are deliberately choosing to mix differing situations. Scotland benefits from the Union, but the UK will not benefit from the EU as the trends in policy are evident to anyone with an ounce of analytic ability can see.
		
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I think Scotland benefits more from being in the EU than the UK.

The EU understands regional development whilst the UK government votes it down at every opportunity.
And yet the UK government expect Scots to pay for development in the richest parts of the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			May's speech to the Scottish Tories was one of astonishing condescension and chutzpah.

And you get idiots like the journalist Andrew Pierce asking why it is that we (England) should not have a vote to Kick -- Scotland -- Out (of the UK).  Nobody tell him that that is completely impossible, and that he is being extremely disingenuous and rabble-rousing?
		
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May is a Tory leader telling lies and going back on her promises to Scotland.......what's new.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2017)

delc said:



			Looking at it the other way round, in her recent speech in Scotland, Mrs May told the Scots that staying in a bigger Union (the UK) is a good thing, whilst the whole UK leaving a bigger Union (the EU) is also a good thing! *Both can't be right*!
		
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Why not? The two events are separate decisions. May could be saying that Scotland gets more benefits from their union with the rest of the UK than the UK gets from the union with the EU.


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## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			May's speech to the Scottish Tories was one of astonishing condescension and chutzpah.

And you get idiots like the journalist Andrew Pierce asking why it is that we (England) should not have a vote to Kick -- Scotland -- Out (of the UK).  Nobody tell him that that is completely impossible, and that he is being extremely disingenuous and rabble-rousing?
		
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And Sturgeon and the rest of the SNP are angels.

I've just listened to the speech all the way through. A third of the way in she congratulates Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Tories for holding the SNP to account in Holyrood... something you and Delc bleat on about incessantly in the Brexit thread, i.e. the holding of a government to account.

She's also criticises the SNP for its blinkered one trick pony vision of independence, and its twisting of the truth.

I waited all through the speech for condescension and attacks similar to those Sturgeon and Salmond often spout. There wasn't one.

Where on earth is the evidence and facts to back up your criticism of her speech? C'mon, listen to it again on Youtube and detail the minute by minute criticisms, and I'll gladly listen to it again.

The truth is, like Sturgeon and Salmond, you see things that just aren't there because it suits your argument. You struggle to see around the chip on your shoulder, not that you even try.

In terms of an opposing politician at a party political conference I thought she was quite gentle, and also respectful of Scotland's achievements and history... but you didn't hear that did you because it doesn't suit your political stance as a nationalist and a Labour supporter.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May is a Tory leader telling lies and going back on her promises to Scotland.......what's new.
		
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What lies is she telling and what promises has she gone back on?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2017)

drdel said:



			Both you(SWILH) and Delc  are deliberately choosing to mix differing situations. Scotland benefits from the Union, but the UK will not benefit from the EU as the trends in policy are evident to anyone with an ounce of analytic ability can see.
		
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eh?  No compreny


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2017)

Leftie said:



			You obviously heard a different part of that programme than I did.  The part I listened to was more along the lines of if England were (hypothetically) given a referendum on whether Scotland should stay or leave the UK, which way would it go.  Not quite as emotive as your interpretation.  There again, I didn't hear the end of the programme so you might have picked the right result 

Click to expand...

I never listened to it all either.  But he opened up by asking the question 'why can't England just Kick -- Scotland -- Out'

I am not sure how that differs from England having a referendum on whether Scotland should leave (the UK)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And Sturgeon and the rest of the SNP are angels.

I've just listened to the speech all the way through. A third of the way in she congratulates Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Tories for holding the SNP to account in Holyrood... something you and Delc bleat on about incessantly in the Brexit thread, i.e. the holding of a government to account.

She's also criticises the SNP for its blinkered one trick pony vision of independence, and its twisting of the truth.

I waited all through the speech for condescension and attacks similar to those Sturgeon and Salmond often spout. There wasn't one.

Where on earth is the evidence and facts to back up your criticism of her speech? C'mon, listen to it again on Youtube and detail the minute by minute criticisms, and I'll gladly listen to it again.

The truth is, like Sturgeon and Salmond, you see things that just aren't there because it suits your argument. You struggle to see around the chip on your shoulder, not that you even try.

In terms of an opposing politician at a party political conference I thought she was quite gentle, and also respectful of Scotland's achievements and history... but you didn't hear that did you because it doesn't suit your political stance as a nationalist and a Labour supporter.
		
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Her tone of delivery throughout was one of a school teacher admonishing a misbehaving child.  Completely condescending.  As it happens I rather like Ms Davidson - and she was a very strong, coherent and intelligent Remain supporter.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			What lies is she telling and what promises has she gone back on?
		
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If you even have to ask that question, you really should not be debating on this thread.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you even have to ask that question, you really should not be debating on this thread.
		
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I wasn't debating anything, I was asking you a question that, for whatever reason, you seem reluctant to answer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Her tone of delivery throughout was one of a school teacher admonishing a misbehaving child.  Completely condescending.  As it happens I rather like Ms Davidson - and she was a very strong, coherent and intelligent Remain supporter.
		
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:whoo: boom boom.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2017)

...and one of my good mates in Glasgow is an East Renfrewshire Conservative Cooncillor - we have great discussions...


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Her tone of delivery throughout was one of a school teacher admonishing a misbehaving child.  Completely condescending.  As it happens I rather like Ms Davidson - and she was a very strong, coherent and intelligent Remain supporter.
		
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Ahhh so you've come back to the brilliant line "it's not what you're saying, it's how you're saying it".

Would you ever admit thatyou're listening to any of her speeches in a somewhat biased way? Being both, pro exit, pro union, and a Tory, she is the complete anti-SILH.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Ahhh so you've come back to the brilliant line "it's not what you're saying, it's how you're saying it".

Would you ever admit thatyou're listening to any of her speeches in a somewhat biased way? Being both, pro exit, pro union, and a Tory, she is the complete anti-SILH.
		
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How can 'condescending tone' not be anything other than how she says it?  

And She isn't pro-Brexit - she is against it, but has found herself trying to lead her party and the country in that direction as that is what they and 'the people' want her to do.   And I am not totally anti-Tory.  Indeed I have friends who have admitted to voting Tory.

And as it happens - my father taught me at a very young age that - indeed - in many instances it is not what you say but how you say it that matters.


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## Leftie (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I never listened to it all either.  But he opened up by asking the question 'why can't England just Kick -- Scotland -- Out'
I am not sure how that differs from England having a referendum on whether Scotland should leave (the UK)
		
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As I'm sure you are well aware, there is a world of difference in the above. 

As I said Hugh, we obviously heard different parts of the programme (or interpreted it differently).  There are many, many reasons why England can't "just kick Scotland out" of the Union.  The part of the debate I heard was - if there were a referendum/poll/show of hands/whatever you want to call it, how much support would there be in England for Scotland to leave.  Semantics maybe, but a big difference in meaning.

Mountain and molehill come to mind


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## delc (Mar 6, 2017)

drdel said:



			Both you(SWILH) and Delc  are deliberately choosing to mix differing situations. Scotland benefits from the Union, but the UK will not benefit from the EU as the trends in policy are evident to anyone with an ounce of analytic ability can see.
		
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The UK benefits from EU regional policy, Europol, the Erasmus project, Joint security arrangements, Scientific cooperation, common standards, free movement of goods and services, Customs Union, Airbus, EASA, European Common Skies arrangements, Environmental Standards, Workers Rights Protections, and many other things I can't think of right now! &#128512;


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## delc (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How can 'condescending tone' not be anything other than how she says it?  

And She isn't pro-Brexit - she is against it, but has found herself trying to lead her party and the country in that direction as that is what they and 'the people' want her to do.   And I am not totally anti-Tory.  Indeed I have friends who have admitted to voting Tory.

And as it happens - my father taught me at a very young age that - indeed - in many instances it is not what you say but how you say it that matters.
		
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She is now pro-Brexit in the same way that sinners become rabid Born Again Christians, ex-smokers become rabidly anti-smoking, and former alcoholics become strict teetotallers! &#128512;


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## delc (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Her tone of delivery throughout was one of a school teacher admonishing a misbehaving child.  Completely condescending.  As it happens I rather like Ms Davidson - and she was a very strong, coherent and intelligent Remain supporter.
		
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I can't imagine that her posh, plummy English accent went down at all well in Scotland!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wasn't debating anything, I was asking you a question that, for whatever reason, you seem reluctant to answer.
		
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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2017)

delc said:



			She is now pro-Brexit in the same way that sinners become rabid Born Again Christians, ex-smokers become rabidly anti-smoking, and former alcoholics become strict teetotallers! &#62976;
		
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:rofl:


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2017)

delc said:



			The UK benefits from EU regional policy, Europol, the Erasmus project, Joint security arrangements, Scientific cooperation, common standards, free movement of goods and services, Customs Union, Airbus, EASA, European Common Skies arrangements, Environmental Standards, Workers Rights Protections, and many other things I can't think of right now! &#62976;
		
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:rofl:


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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2017)

delc said:



			I can't imagine that her posh, plummy English accent went down at all well in Scotland!
		
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Salmond for sure doesn't care much for Cockney... Still hell bent on punishing Londoners for whatever reason...

Think he gets confused between London folk and those that frequent the Palace of Westminster...

Think Portillo properly got up his [Salmonds] left nostril last week :thup:...

When he was Maggie's chief cheerleader I would've gladly shot him right between the eyes... But when he recently advocated taking on a greater national debt to solve the housing problem he became my new hero ...


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## Hobbit (Mar 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Her tone of delivery throughout was one of a school teacher admonishing a misbehaving child.  Completely condescending.  As it happens I rather like Ms Davidson - and she was a very strong, coherent and intelligent Remain supporter.
		
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I guess it's down to each individual to interpret it as they feel. Personally, I didn't feel that at all. 

I also thought the clear indication that many of the powers being taken back from Brussels would be passed to the devolved governments shows that Westminster and the Tories are happy to devolve powers to Scotland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I guess it's down to each individual to interpret it as they feel. Personally, I didn't feel that at all. 

I also thought the clear indication that many of the powers being taken back from Brussels would be passed to the devolved governments shows that Westminster and the Tories are happy to devolve powers to Scotland.
		
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We are being told that Agriculture and fisheries will no longer be devolved......do you know any different.
Genuine question...no wind up.:thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2017)

delc said:



			She is now pro-Brexit in the same way that sinners become rabid Born Again Christians, ex-smokers become rabidly anti-smoking, and former alcoholics become strict teetotallers! &#128512;
		
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Naw...she clearly does not believe in what she is doing.......but managed to get a great job by swopping sides.
At least Farage gave us conviction even if he was totally misguided.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw...she clearly does not believe in what she is doing.......but managed to get a great job by swopping sides.
At least Farage gave us conviction even if he was totally misguided.
		
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I think you misjudge her.  She did indeed tow the Ministerial line during the lead up to the referendum but I dont believe she was a Remainer at heart.  A bit like Corbyn.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 9, 2017)

:lol: Just calling it what it is.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1382558-mhairi-black-mouthed-you-talk-s-e-hen-at-tory-mp/


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## Val (Mar 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol: Just calling it what it is.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1382558-mhairi-black-mouthed-you-talk-s-e-hen-at-tory-mp/

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Professionalism, I wouldn't have expected anything better


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 9, 2017)

Val said:



			Professionalism, I wouldn't have expected anything better 

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You could be right, shocking display of ineptitude from Caroline Noakes.
I would have thought an under secretary would have at least a basic knowledge of her brief.


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## Val (Mar 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You could be right, shocking display of ineptitude from Caroline Noakes.
I would have thought an under secretary would have at least a basic knowledge of her brief.
		
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I agree, that doesn't make Mhari Black's mouthing right though. A bit of etiquette and professionalism doesn't go a miss especially when you are trying to do better for your electorate. Nonsense like that will still have people look at her as a "wee lassie out her depth" which I do believe she is.


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## User62651 (Mar 9, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			When he was Maggie's chief cheerleader I would've gladly shot him right between the eyes... But when he recently advocated taking on a greater national debt to solve the housing problem he became my new hero ...
		
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Agree with this, seemed a prize turnip in government but now comes over as a really nice mildly impartial considerate guy in political interviews, commentary and in his non political tv shows. 
When he does the late night show on Sky news I think with Labours old health minister Alan Johnson politics suddenly becomes very appealing, sensible and watchable instead of the usual shouting, obstruction, denial and bluster! :thup:


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## Hobbit (Mar 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol: Just calling it what it is.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1382558-mhairi-black-mouthed-you-talk-s-e-hen-at-tory-mp/

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Do I take Black seriously? No. Do I take Skinner seriously? No. Irrespective of whatever party someone like that is a member of, if they behave like street preachers I think "idiot."



Val said:



			I agree, that doesn't make Mhari Black's mouthing right though. A bit of etiquette and professionalism doesn't go a miss especially when you are trying to do better for your electorate. Nonsense like that will still have people look at her as a "wee lassie out her depth" which I do believe she is.
		
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Well said.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Do I take Black seriously? No. Do I take Skinner seriously? No. Irrespective of whatever party someone like that is a member of, if they behave like street preachers I think "idiot."



Well said.
		
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I certainly do not think she is out of her depth, more like a breath of fresh air in a cesspit. [excuse the pun]

I suppose a posh Tory shouting 'Woof Woof' at female speaker is 'professional'.


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## Hobbit (Mar 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I certainly do not think she is out of her depth, more like a breath of fresh air in a cesspit. [excuse the pun]

I suppose a posh Tory shouting 'Woof Woof' at female speaker is 'professional'.
		
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If you're willing to accept Black's loutish behaviour I guess you are happy with a woof woof too.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I certainly do not think she is out of her depth, more like a breath of fresh air in a cesspit. [excuse the pun]

I suppose a posh Tory shouting 'Woof Woof' at female speaker is 'professional'.
		
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Has given some great speeches on women's pension issues and good when she can control herself and stick to the facts (I know this is hard for any politician) but she took a step back with this.  She could prove to be a far better SNP leader than the current lying one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Agree with this, seemed a prize turnip in government but now comes over as a really nice mildly impartial considerate guy in political interviews, commentary and in his non political tv shows. 
When he does the *late night show on Sky news I think *with Labours old health minister Alan Johnson politics suddenly becomes very appealing, sensible and watchable instead of the usual shouting, obstruction, denial and bluster! :thup:
		
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Pedantically speaking they do _This Week_ on BBC with Andrew Neil

And yes - I agree - when Stephen Twigg unseated him back in 1997 election I was bouncing around the street - but he does actually these days seem a level-headed rational guy - compared with some of the extreme right wing weirdos that Neil has on (and yes - there are extreme left wing weirdos too)


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 10, 2017)

It always amazes me how many firebrands become reasonable people once they leave front line politics. You can then get very rational conversations instead of party line nonsense. Before the last election 5live had a panel of David Blunkett, Vince Cable and a Tory I can't remember now. All three spoke very well, didn't fight or read scripts. They bounced the themes of the election around and it was very informative. It is a shame this goes to pot when in power.

Portillo is a great example of this. 99% of the nation cheered when he lost his seat but now he has become well liked and respected. The only one I still can't warm to is Edwina Currie. She is still as obnoxious now as she was before.

Jimmy was talking about a new referendum in Autumn 2018. Polls are stagnant at 49% each side. Is that enough to go on? I know the SNP came strong during the election but are people now entrenched?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			If you're willing to accept Black's loutish behaviour I guess you are happy with a woof woof too.
		
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Loutish behaviour that's a bit precious Hobbit.
Are you not aware that the only person who heard Black's comment was her colleague sitting next to her.

Woof woof probably means something to inbred Tory circles.
Glad to say that does not include me so I cannot possibly compare


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Jimmy was talking about a new referendum in Autumn 2018. Polls are stagnant at 49% each side. Is that enough to go on? I know the SNP came strong during the election but are people now entrenched?
		
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I assume by saying 'Jimmy' you mean the Scottish First Minister if so, is that not pretty loutish behaviour 

It is very close at the moment and the momentum is with the Yes campaign.
It will be quite a different debate next time, basically Unionists vs Independence supporters, party politics will not come into it.
Labour were big time losers last time as they did not recognise that a fair number of their supporters were also in favour of independence.
You may be surprised to know that even a few Tory supporters are also in favour of Independence.

Age is against the No voters as their crucial support lies with the over 65's.
In all other age groups the percentage of voters are in favour of Independence.

Both Labour and Tory leaders have flip flopped on Brexit so their credibility is damaged. 
Quite a few 'notable' No campaign leaders have moved to the Yes campaign.
Apart from an embittered Jim Sillars I cannot think of anyone else who has gone in the opposite direction for the Yes group.

Timing is bad but, if called in 2018, I would predict a 5% win for the Yessers. Not great for all concerned.
I would much rather leave it for a couple of years, until after the next Westminster Elections.
Once the Tories are re-elected with a big majority I think it will be a shoe in for Yes.


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## Hobbit (Mar 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Loutish behaviour that's a bit precious Hobbit.
Are you not aware that the only person who heard Black's comment was her colleague sitting next to her.

Woof woof probably means something to inbred Tory circles.
Glad to say that does not include me so I cannot possibly compare
		
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Not surprised... just like Wenger. Only sees what he wants to see.



Doon frae Troon said:



			I assume by saying 'Jimmy' you mean the Scottish First Minister if so, is that not pretty loutish behaviour 

It is very close at the moment and the momentum is with the Yes campaign.
It will be quite a different debate next time, basically Unionists vs Independence supporters, party politics will not come into it.
Labour were big time losers last time as they did not recognise that a fair number of their supporters were also in favour of independence.
You may be surprised to know that even a few Tory supporters are also in favour of Independence.

Age is against the No voters as their crucial support lies with the over 65's.
In all other age groups the percentage of voters are in favour of Independence.

Both Labour and Tory leaders have flip flopped on Brexit so their credibility is damaged. 
Quite a few 'notable' No campaign leaders have moved to the Yes campaign.
Apart from an embittered Jim Sillars I cannot think of anyone else who has gone in the opposite direction for the Yes group.

Timing is bad but, if called in 2018, I would predict a 5% win for the Yessers. Not great for all concerned.
I would much rather leave it for a couple of years, until after the next Westminster Elections.
Once the Tories are re-elected with a big majority I think it will be a shoe in for Yes.
		
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I think if Scotland went for independence now they'd get it by 5%. I think there's a silent majority that, on the back of Brexit, will vote for independence.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2017)

Would there be calls for a third referendum if the result of the next one is a narrow vote in favour of independence? Just wondering if there will be suggestions that it would then be 1-1 and they would need a decider.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I assume by saying 'Jimmy' you mean the Scottish First Minister if so, is that not pretty loutish behaviour *

It is very close at the moment and the momentum is with the Yes campaign.
It will be quite a different debate next time, basically Unionists vs Independence supporters, party politics will not come into it.
Labour were big time losers last time as they did not recognise that a fair number of their supporters were also in favour of independence.
You may be surprised to know that even a few Tory supporters are also in favour of Independence.

Age is against the No voters as their crucial support lies with the over 65's.
In all other age groups the percentage of voters are in favour of Independence.

Both Labour and Tory leaders have flip flopped on Brexit so their credibility is damaged. 
Quite a few 'notable' No campaign leaders have moved to the Yes campaign.
Apart from an embittered Jim Sillars I cannot think of anyone else who has gone in the opposite direction for the Yes group.

Timing is bad but, if called in 2018, I would predict a 5% win for the Yessers. Not great for all concerned.
I would much rather leave it for a couple of years, until after the next Westminster Elections.
Once the Tories are re-elected with a big majority I think it will be a shoe in for Yes.
		
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Oh I wouldn't bother - they thinks it's funny.


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## chippa1909 (Mar 10, 2017)

The procedure would be:
In the first Scottish general election after becoming independent, the Scottish people would be able to vote for whoever they want, including Unionist parties who put in their manifestos that they would request to rejoin the UK. 
If said Unionist parties then gain enough votes they can then request to rejoin. :thup:


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2017)




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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 10, 2017)

Swing it and Doon must get very offended by the Tracy Ullman show. If you haven't seen it then I suggest it is best avoided. You may be outraged in a way not seen since dear old Mary Whitehouse was on the scene. Then again you could accept all politicians are fair game and most comments are said in jest.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Swing it and Doon must get very offended by the Tracy Ullman show. If you haven't seen it then I suggest it is best avoided. You may be outraged in a way not seen since dear old Mary Whitehouse was on the scene. Then again you could accept all politicians are fair game and most comments are said in jest.
		
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Did you not spot my Wee Winkie man.

Watched the first Ullman show....she had Angela Merkel to a tee, quite good with Nicola but not particularly funny, quite poorly written material. 

Interesting how it is just the one SNP politician that some on here seem to chose [supposedly] funny names for.
Struthy and Deputy Dug are a much richer seam for comedy shots.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 10, 2017)

Missed the winkie, my fault. My favourite on that show is Murdoch and Jerry Hall. Vicious but funny. 

To be honest, with Alex Salmond taking a back seat Nicola Sturgeon is the only SNP politician known south of the border. Genuinely, people could not name another SNP politician never mind knowing their nicknames.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be honest, with Alex Salmond taking a back seat Nicola Sturgeon is the only SNP politician known south of the border. Genuinely, people could not name another SNP politician never mind knowing their nicknames.
		
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That is very true.
Trouble is it does not seem to stop them arrogantly wading in with their laughable opinions on Scottish politics.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is very true.
Trouble is it does not seem to stop them arrogantly wading in with their laughable opinions on English politics.
		
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Fixed that for you.


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## chippa1909 (Mar 11, 2017)

Nice to see Reporting Scotland last night debunking the nonsense about a Spanish veto on Scotland's EU membership.
Has been known for a while, but nice for it to be clarified.

Another myth shot down.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Nice to see Reporting Scotland last night debunking the nonsense about a Spanish veto on Scotland's EU membership.
Has been known for a while, but nice for it to be clarified.

Another myth shot down.
		
Click to expand...

Not a myth, nor debunking the nonsense.

June 29th 2016. Belgian Foreign Minister says that they would not support Scotland joining separately. Same date, the Spanish Prime Minister says that if the UK leaves the EU Scotland can't stay in under a separate deal.

Belgian Foreign Minister has since said that there is no reason why an independent Scotland can't apply to join the EU but that it wouldn't be fast tracked.

The Spanish Prime Minister has also since said that Scotland can apply to join the EU and would be fast tracked if it agreed to the Common Fisheries policy.

No myth, no debunking nonsense. Just EU politicians changing their mind.


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## chippa1909 (Mar 11, 2017)

Still nice to see it reported on the news.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Still nice to see it reported on the news.
		
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Nice to see some common sense prevailing. The EU will need a relationship with the UK just as the UK, whole or in parts, needs a reasonable relationship with the EU. And if part of the UK feels strongly enough to go it alone and become a member of the EU, so be it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Not a myth, nor debunking the nonsense.

June 29th 2016. Belgian Foreign Minister says that they would not support Scotland joining separately. Same date, the Spanish Prime Minister says that if the UK leaves the EU Scotland can't stay in under a separate deal.

Belgian Foreign Minister has since said that there is no reason why an independent Scotland can't apply to join the EU but that it wouldn't be fast tracked.

The Spanish Prime Minister has also since said that Scotland can apply to join the EU and would be fast tracked if it agreed to the Common Fisheries policy.

No myth, no debunking nonsense. Just EU politicians changing their mind.
		
Click to expand...

Not a myth  apart from the fact that all the Unionist press and media.....basically all the British press and media..........have been very shouty to the Scottish Government about the Spanish veto for the last 6 months.

Not to mention the usual suspects on here


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not a myth  apart from the fact that all the Unionist press and media.....basically all the British press and media..........have been very shouty to the Scottish Government about the Spanish veto for the last 6 months.

Not to mention the usual suspects on here

Click to expand...

The Belgian and Spanish did not change their mind that long ago so perhaps the media and the usual suspects were right when they said it.

It appears the SNP first minister has changed her view even though she signed an official paper saying something completely different when she was deputy.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not a myth  apart from the fact that all the Unionist press and media.....basically all the British press and media..........have been very shouty to the Scottish Government about the Spanish veto for the last 6 months.

Not to mention the usual suspects on here

Click to expand...

Hahahahahahaha...... I read both stories in the same media. That's not like you Doon, to be cynical and dismissive of the truth.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahahahaha...... I read both stories in the same media. That's not like you Doon, to be cynical and dismissive of the truth.
		
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I think there was probably a bit of a time lap between the stories you read though.

The Unionist press work on the theory that a repetitive lie eventually become the truth to it's elderly readers.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think there was probably a bit of a time lap between the stories you read though.

The Unionist press work on the theory that a repetitive lie eventually become the truth to it's elderly readers.
		
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Obviously! You're hardly likely to see "Spain will veto" at the top of the page followed by "Spain welcomes" half way down.

Glad I don't qualify as elderly yet. But guessing you're the wrong side of 27 how come you don't believe it?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 13, 2017)

And there we go then. Sturgeon seeking approval for the second ref.


When do you think the 3rd will be, or will it go straight to a penalty shootout?


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2017)

While I think she is a nasty wee thingie....

*I think Scotland actually has a right to a second Referendum*.   The majority of Scots wanted to stay in Europe.  The landscape post Brexit is sufficiently different to warrant it.  

... Scotland will rise to prominence in the post Brexit, Frexit and Nexit EU !  



...............................as a net contributor!!  Good luck Jimmy!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			And there we go then. Sturgeon seeking approval for the second ref.


When do you think the 3rd will be, or will it go straight to a penalty shootout?
		
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Pity May has been to intransigent.
A compromise deal would have been beneficial to both sides.

But there you go..Tories...arrogant to the end.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2017)

IanM said:



			While I think she is a nasty wee thingie....

*I think Scotland actually has a right to a second Referendum*.   The majority of Scots wanted to stay in Europe.  The landscape post Brexit is sufficiently different to warrant it.  

... Scotland will rise to prominence in the post Brexit, Frexit and Nexit EU !  



...............................as a net contributor!!  Good luck Jimmy!  

Click to expand...

I don't think they have a right, as it was a UK vote, but I think it is the right thing to do as Scotland clearly voted very differently to England and Wales.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pity May has been to intransigent.
A compromise deal would have been beneficial to both sides.

But there you go..Tories...arrogant to the end.
		
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Or the SNP being just as arrogant and ignoring what was a UK vote, not a regional vote... choose your spin.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2017)

Sturgeon doesn't want a compromise. She wants her way and her way alone. She sounds like the RMT this morning, "we want to talk and discuss" but only if the others agree to what they want.

Personally I want the referendum and I want Scotland to leave the union. I am phenomenally bored of hearing the constant whining and blame game so please just leave.

Incidentally, if the people of Scotland vote to stay again, who is next in line at the SNP to replace Sturgeon when she has to resign? Genuine question, I only know her and Salmond.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pity May has been to intransigent.
A compromise deal would have been beneficial to both sides.

But there you go..Tories...arrogant to the end.
		
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What compromise deal were you after? (you being Scotland)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sturgeon doesn't want a compromise. She wants her way and her way alone. She sounds like the RMT this morning, "we want to talk and discuss" but only if the others agree to what they want.

*Personally I want the referendum *and I want Scotland to leave the union. * I am phenomenally bored of hearing the constant whining and blame game so please just leave.*

Incidentally, if the people of Scotland vote to stay again, who is next in line at the SNP to replace Sturgeon when she has to resign? Genuine question, I only know her and Salmond.
		
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Do you know what...I agree with this sentiment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What compromise deal were you after? (you being Scotland)
		
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The one that the Tories had in their 2015 GE manifesto - to _safeguard the UK's interests in the single market_.  

That's the compromise she was after.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sturgeon doesn't want a compromise. She wants her way and her way alone. She sounds like the RMT this morning, "we want to talk and discuss" but only if the others agree to what they want.

Personally I want the referendum and I want Scotland to leave the union. I am phenomenally bored of hearing the constant whining and blame game so please just leave.

Incidentally, if the people of Scotland vote to stay again, who is next in line at the SNP to replace Sturgeon when she has to resign? Genuine question, I only know her and Salmond.
		
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SNP has quite a few young and experienced front benchers.
Auld John Swinney blew the two main opposition party leaders out of the water when taking FMQ in Nicola's absence last week.
What makes you think Nicola would resign if the Scottish Government lose the vote ? She has a huge popularity rating.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The one that the Tories had in their 2015 GE manifesto - to _safeguard the UK's interests in the single market_.  

That's the compromise she was after.
		
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Thanks for confirming that SILH. How do you suppose that would have been possible? Or is this a "compromise" that is only achieved by staying in the EU? If it's not overly feasible, can it be considered a fair compromise? I could shout all day for what I want - does it count as not being compromised if what I say is unreasonable?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What compromise deal were you after? (you being Scotland)
		
Click to expand...

It has been well documented......look it up if you have not been paying attention.

Strange that a compromise deal is GIVEN to a Japanese car manufacturer in NE England but not even discussed with Scotland.
Details of the car deal have been requested by the Scottish Government but refused by Westminster.


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## Val (Mar 13, 2017)

3 life changing referendums in 4 years, that is really what the people of the UK wanted


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Thanks for confirming that SILH. *How do you suppose that would have been possible? Or is this a "compromise" that is only achieved by staying in the EU? *If it's not overly feasible, can it be considered a fair compromise? I could shout all day for what I want - does it count as not being compromised if what I say is unreasonable?
		
Click to expand...

I simply quote from the Tory Party Manifesto for the 2015 GE (my bold)
_
> give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum
by the end of 2017

> reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf *and safeguard British interests in the Single
Market*_

So according to their manifesto leaving the EU was not the same as leaving the Single Market. Else why state them separately and state that the Tories would safeguard UK interests, with that second manifesto pledge having no caveats.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP has quite a few young and experienced front benchers.
Auld John Swinney blew the two main opposition party leaders out of the water when taking FMQ in Nicola's absence last week.
What makes you think Nicola would resign if the Scottish Government lose the vote ? She has a huge popularity rating.
		
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Same reason Alex Salmond resigned, same reason David Cameron resigned. If you gamble everything on a vote that you have asked for and it goes against you then your credibility is shot. Her whole existence, her reason for being a politician is focused on this one issue. If she can't persuade the voters to back her when she has asked for their backing means she would have to go.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2017)

Surely she would be better waiting until the prospects of a deal over UK access to the single market was a bit clearer. It's been established that as Scotland is not currently an EU member it can't remain in the EU when the UK leaves and would have to apply as an independent country.

I think I would permit myself a little chuckle if wee Jimmy got her way and got a vote for independence only to find that Scotland didn't meet the entry requirements to join the EU. Meanwhile the UK government had been hard at work negotiating a deal that gives access to the single market leaving the UK in the single market and Scotland having to rely on WTO rules for access.

Wouldn't she have been better off saying that they will look at the deal that the UK negotiates with the EU and then decide if Scotland would be better off as an independent country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Same reason Alex Salmond resigned, same reason David Cameron resigned. If you gamble everything on a vote that you have asked for and it goes against you then your credibility is shot. Her whole existence, her reason for being a politician is focused on this one issue. If she can't persuade the voters to back her when she has asked for their backing means she would have to go.
		
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I think she'd go - but not if the SNP wanted her to stay.  If they did then whether she stayed or stepped down would depend upon the SNP showing in the 2020 Westminster general election - with the Holyrood election having been moved to May 2012 to avoid a clash.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2017)

Colchester, I would agree with your last sentence but I don't think she has the patience for it. If she was calmer she should play the long game and wait as you say but she doesn't have that in her based on her actions.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply quote from the Tory Party Manifesto for the 2015 GE (my bold)
_
> give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum
by the end of 2017

> reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf *and safeguard British interests in the Single
Market*_

So according to their manifesto leaving the EU was not the same as leaving the Single Market. Else why state them separately and state that the Tories would safeguard UK interests, with that second manifesto pledge having no caveats.
		
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You're now almost C+P'ing from the A50 thread. You've also completely avoided my question. No matter what was said, IF it can't be granted, how could they have compromised? No win it seems.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely she would be better waiting until the prospects of a deal over UK access to the single market was a bit clearer. It's been established that as Scotland is not currently an EU member it can't remain in the EU when the UK leaves and would have to apply as an independent country.

I think I would permit myself a little chuckle if wee Jimmy got her way and got a vote for independence only to find that Scotland didn't meet the entry requirements to join the EU. Meanwhile the UK government had been hard at work negotiating a deal that gives access to the single market leaving the UK in the single market and Scotland having to rely on WTO rules for access.

Wouldn't she have been better off saying that they will look at the deal that the UK negotiates with the EU and then decide if Scotland would be better off as an independent country.
		
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She has said that a referendum should be between Autumn 2018 and May 2019 because by that time the deal with the EU should be negotiated and with the EU27 for individual ratification.  The Scottish electorate will therefore know in detail what's on offer from a post-Brexit UK.  

Scotland could therefore choose to become independent BEFORE the UK leaves the EU, and Sturgeon will attempt to sell Scotland being able to remain in the EU if separation is what the electorate chooses - or at least being able to present guarantees from the EU of immediately re-entry - with exit simply being a legal requirement and part of the process,


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Colchester, I would agree with your last sentence but I don't think she has the patience for it. If she was calmer she should play the long game and wait as you say but she doesn't have that in her based on her actions.
		
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Even funnier would be if Scotland voted for independence in late 2018 and it then became clear that the EU were willing to negotiate a better deal for the UK to remain in the EU including the right to veto any new members joining. A second referendum was held early in 2019 and the UK voted to remain in the EU under these better terms and then vetoed Scotland's membership application.


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## Val (Mar 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even funnier would be if Scotland voted for independence in late 2018 and it then became clear that the EU were willing to negotiate a better deal for the UK to remain in the EU including the right to veto any new members joining. A second referendum was held early in 2019 and the UK voted to remain in the EU under these better terms and then vetoed Scotland's membership application.
		
Click to expand...

And given that in the event of a yes vote then the talk of separating the union the timescales ie circa 2 years is similar to leaving the EU then Scotland could possibly do similar.

At the end of the day if Scotland vote yes then surely that is then 1-1 and all to play for


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 13, 2017)

Val said:



			And given that in the event of a yes vote then the talk of separating the union the timescales ie circa 2 years is similar to leaving the EU then Scotland could possibly do similar.

At the end of the day if Scotland vote yes then surely that is then 1-1 and all to play for 

Click to expand...

Give it over to the rUK (I know SILH loves this acronym) for the deciding vote?


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## Val (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Give it over to the rUK (I know SILH loves this acronym) for the deciding vote?
		
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Foxtrot Oscar :rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Give it over to the rUK (I know SILH loves this acronym) for the deciding vote?
		
Click to expand...

Would you prefer EWANI?

It's not my preference by the way.  It is a commonplace shorthand.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 13, 2017)

Val said:



			Foxtrot Oscar :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry, not serious at all. I can't see the SNP losing this time though. For the sake of clarity, you have to hope it's a strong vote either way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

Val said:



			And given that in the event of a yes vote then the talk of separating the union the timescales ie circa 2 years is similar to leaving the EU then Scotland could possibly do similar.

At the end of the day if Scotland vote yes then surely that is then 1-1 and all to play for 

Click to expand...

Aye - but one side or the other will have a blatant penalty turned down in injury time - and there will be all hell to pay


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## Val (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Don't worry, not serious at all. I can't see the SNP losing this time though. For the sake of clarity, you have to hope it's a strong vote either way.
		
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I can and I'll say it here now. This referendum wont take place due to compromise between Westminster and Holyrood.


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## PieMan (Mar 13, 2017)

Of course Westminster could refuse the request for a second referendum...............!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2017)

PieMan said:



			Of course Westminster could refuse the request for a second referendum...............!
		
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Absolutely. After all the Westminster govt has a Brexit to deal with and this would be a major distraction. It is not Nicola Sturgeons decision to make at the end of the day.


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2017)

What's the Scottish Contingent's view on Ruth Davidson?  Saw her on Sky News just now and seemed to have it summed up nicely... or do all Scots hate Tories for , eh, being Tory?


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## DCB (Mar 13, 2017)

Val said:



			I can and I'll say it here now. This referendum wont take place due to compromise between Westminster and Holyrood.
		
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I'd like to think that will be the case, but, I somehow don't think any compromise will go far enough to satisfy the SNP. It's going to be interesting to see how their conference pans out now ..... what have they got to talk about ?


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## DCB (Mar 13, 2017)

IanM said:



			What's the Scottish Contingent's view on Ruth Davidson?  Saw her on Sky News just now and seemed to have it summed up nicely... or do all Scots hate Tories for , eh, being Tory? 

Click to expand...

Ruth Davidson has far more presence than Kezia Dugdale. Definitely a better Leader of the Opposition than we've had for a while.

As for all Scots hating the Tories, that's like saying all English love the Tories ;-)


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2017)

DCB said:



			As for all Scots hating the Tories, that's like saying all English love the Tories ;-)
		
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.......... indeed you are correct!  My Scottish Uncle was hard-core Tory...a rare breed in Falkirk!


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## ger147 (Mar 13, 2017)

IanM said:



			.......... indeed you are correct!  My Scottish Uncle was hard-core Tory...a rare breed in Falkirk!
		
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Every breed in Falkirk is rare...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You're now almost C+P'ing from the A50 thread. You've also completely avoided my question. No matter what was said, IF it can't be granted, how could they have compromised? No win it seems.
		
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There is nothing about the Single Market that cannot be negotiated if Team Brexit wish to negotiate it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

IanM said:



			What's the Scottish Contingent's view on Ruth Davidson?  Saw her on Sky News just now and seemed to have it summed up nicely... or do all Scots hate Tories for , eh, being Tory? 

Click to expand...

I rather like wee Ruthie - she's no eejit - unlike her colleague David Mundell.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

DCB said:



			I'd like to think that will be the case, but, I somehow don't think any compromise will go far enough to satisfy the SNP. It's going to be interesting to see how their conference pans out now ..... what have they got to talk about ?
		
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What compromise can Westminster now offer - given Team Brexit seem wedded to leaving the Single Market as a sop to the immigration brigade.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Every breed in Falkirk is rare...
		
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....especially the cross ones...but no matter - they have two huge Kelpie-Heids and a Big Wheel - all of which are grand


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## User62651 (Mar 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I rather like wee Ruthie - she's no eejit - unlike her colleague David Mundell.
		
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Me too, she was flying high but the EU ref loss and Brexit on the back of the 2014 Indyref better together promise that staying in the UK was the only way for Scotland to stay in EU has given all her opponents rope to hang her with and really blunted her teeth. She made a bad call there which has weakened her imo.

For whomever was asking Tories got close to 15% of vote in last general election so not everyone hates the Tories up here! There was a lot of tactical voting to try and defeat SNP in many seats (which failed) so perhaps the Tory vote is actually a bit higher. They got 22% in the last Holyrood election with a PR system so that 22% is likely more representative.

What currency, what debt share, oil, EU, etc etc etc all over again........ sigh!

If May doesn't allow it then where that leaves us is where we are now - Unionists(UK) will rejoice, Nats will cry foul. If it's democratic and has a mandate through a majority of MSPs backing it then it should go ahead imo. May saying no is perhaps dangerous - it's a Union, not a master and servant arrangement.........though perceptions of this relationship vary wildly.

4 or 5 years between indy refs, should it proceed, will have moved the vote demographic a little towards yes I think. Could be very tight.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

I am keeping track on the number of times I hear 'once in a generation' today.
Seven so far, and that is only BBC Radio Scotland presenters.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2017)

You can't blame them Doon. It was Alex Salmond who used the phrase, he put it out there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even funnier would be if Scotland voted for independence in late 2018 and it then became clear that the EU were willing to negotiate a better deal for the UK to remain in the EU including the right to veto any new members joining. A second referendum was held early in 2019 and the UK voted to remain in the EU under these better terms and then vetoed Scotland's membership application.
		
Click to expand...

Or........... if we are in the land of make believe and unicorns ......even funnier than funnier.........Scotland accepted into EU and block rUK's trade deals.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You can't blame them Doon. It was Alex Salmond who used the phrase, he put it out there.
		
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And Cameron who made it irrelevant the following few hours with his EVEL speech.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or........... if we are in the land of make believe and unicorns ......even funnier than funnier.........Scotland accepted into EU and block rUK's trade deals.
		
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As the rest of the UK is Scotlands biggest trading partner that would be a little silly, wouldn't it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			As the rest of the UK is Scotlands biggest trading partner that would be a little silly, wouldn't it?
		
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I was following the land of make believe and unicorns post......... :lol:far from serious.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

May accuses Sturgeon of uncertaincy and division.
Aye missus, just like your Tory party Brexit brought us all together


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was following the land of make believe and unicorns post......... :lol:far from serious.
		
Click to expand...

You mean you don't have unicorns where you live?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You mean you don't have unicorns where you live? 

Click to expand...

None here ..........If it helps there does seem to be a cluster in Colchester.


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2017)

The timing of Sturgeon's announcement was clearly chosen only to pre-empt the possibility that the PM might say something about Article 50.

I hope the Scots care enough about their future to see the total illogicality of a nation of 5mill with dubious economic prospects trying to get the attention of the 27 rEU countries when they have considerably more serious domestic troubles.

There is also the real possibility that the EU may yet sub-divide into a 'core' contributors and the 'rest'.

Sturgeon needs to take a deep breath and a serious major review and risk assessment of the developing politico/economic landscape in the EU- an independent Scotland could be a very bleak and isolated place.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

drdel said:



			The timing of Sturgeon's announcement was clearly chosen only to pre-empt the possibility that the PM might say something about Article 50.

I hope the Scots care enough about their future to see the total illogicality of a nation of 5mill with dubious economic prospects trying to get the attention of the 27 rEU countries when they have considerably more serious domestic troubles.

There is also the real possibility that the EU may yet sub-divide into a 'core' contributors and the 'rest'.

Sturgeon needs to take a deep breath and a serious major review and risk assessment of the developing politico/economic landscape in the EU- an independent Scotland could be a very bleak and isolated place.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe not so bad though as the EU tries to give the poorer and struggling countries in the EU a good 'leg-up' so that over time they become economically more productive and stable.

Not sure why Scotland would be a more bleak and isolated place than a post-Brexit UK struggling to forge relationships with countries around the world whilst at the same time having to put severe limits on immigration.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 13, 2017)

Val said:



			3 life changing referendums in 4 years, that is really what the people of the UK wanted 

Click to expand...

Yip a total failure of leadership all round.

I'm truly disgusted with the SNP today. More so than usual!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

And here's me and the Mrs staying in Embra Thursday night to have a look around Thursday/Friday - as she's thinking of us moving up within a couple of years...ah well...


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## lobthewedge (Mar 13, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Yip a total failure of leadership all round.

I'm truly disgusted with the SNP today. More so than usual! 

Click to expand...

Entirely agree, I am scared to watch the news for fear of smashing a 5 iron through the screen.

So sad at what has become of this country, and the uncertainty that lies ahead.  All due to the pathetic calibre of politician we have been lumbered with over the past 20 years on both sides of the border.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

drdel said:



			The timing of Sturgeon's announcement was clearly chosen only to pre-empt the possibility that the PM might say something about Article 50.

I hope the Scots care enough about their future to see the total illogicality of a nation of 5mill with dubious economic prospects trying to get the attention of the 27 rEU countries when they have considerably more serious domestic troubles.

There is also the real possibility that the EU may yet sub-divide into a 'core' contributors and the 'rest'.

Sturgeon needs to take a deep breath and a serious major review and risk assessment of the developing politico/economic landscape in the EU- an independent Scotland could be a very bleak and isolated place.
		
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Nations with a population of 5millionish include Denmark. Norway, Switzerland and New Zealand.
Last time I looked they seemed to be doing Ok.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nations with a population of 5millionish include Denmark. Norway, Switzerland and New Zealand.
Last time I looked they seemed to be doing Ok.
		
Click to expand...

All those countries are also on sound financial footing - Scotland clearly isn't 

Last time the big financial point was all about the oil fields etc - thankfully for Scotland that was found to be a massive miscalculation and Scotland right now would be struggling in a big way financially 

Nothing has changed since then and Scotland would be mad to break away - they don't appear to be in any position to be allowed to join the EU so why on earth would they leave the UK


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe not so bad though as the EU tries to give the poorer and struggling countries in the EU a good 'leg-up' so that over time they become economically more productive and stable.

Not sure why Scotland would be a more bleak and isolated place than a post-Brexit UK struggling to forge relationships with countries around the world *whilst at the same time having to put severe limits on immigration.*

Click to expand...

As someone that complains about the lies that the Leave campaign told perhaps you should stop propagating your own lies. Unless of course you are able to provide a link to where anyone from the Leave side of things has suggested "severe limits on immigration". You're getting as bad as DelC. It's been pointed out dozens of times that it is about CONTROL of immigration and deciding who comes here and not simply allowing anyone from 27 other countries to come here just because they want to. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp but you seem to be deliberately ignoring that fact.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nations with a population of 5millionish include *Denmark. Norway,* Switzerland and New Zealand.
Last time I looked they seemed to be doing Ok.
		
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Have you looked at the tax rates in the first two countries you mentioned (I'm not sure what they are in Switzerland)? And also the sovereign wealth fund that Norway has to finance it?

I asked you before what level of tax rises or cuts to services would you accept to cover the costs of independence but you didn't answer it. Perhaps this time you'll have a answer. Also would you be prepared to join the Euro as part of EU membership?


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## lobthewedge (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nations with a population of 5millionish include Denmark. Norway, Switzerland and New Zealand.
Last time I looked they seemed to be doing Ok.
		
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So the call for indyref2 comes about because scotland will lose its eu membership.

But you see Norway and Switzerland, 2 European countries who are not in the eu, as successful examples we could emulate.

I'm confused??


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All those countries are also on sound financial footing - Scotland clearly isn't 

Last time the big financial point was all about the oil fields etc - thankfully for Scotland that was found to be a massive miscalculation and Scotland right now would be struggling in a big way financially 

Nothing has changed since then and Scotland would be mad to break away - they don't appear to be in any position to be allowed to join the EU so why on earth would they leave the UK
		
Click to expand...

You have answered your own question by agreeing that Scotland has fared badly under UK rule.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You have answered your own question by agreeing that Scotland has fared badly under UK rule.
		
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So couple of questions 

Do Scotland make more than they spend ?

The countries you use as an example are a combinations of - high tax , backed by sovereign wealth and not in the EU 

So which model will Scotland follow ?


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You have answered your own question by agreeing that Scotland has fared badly under UK rule.
		
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If that statement was a drive, you'd be pegging it up again and playing 3 !


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even funnier would be if Scotland voted for independence in late 2018 and it then became clear that the EU were willing to negotiate a better deal for the UK to remain in the EU including the right to veto any new members joining. A second referendum was held early in 2019 and the UK voted to remain in the EU under these better terms and then vetoed Scotland's membership application.
		
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This scenario nearly makes it worth going for a second referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			As someone that complains about the lies that the Leave campaign told perhaps you should stop propagating your own lies. Unless of course you are able to provide a link to where anyone from the Leave side of things has suggested "severe limits on immigration". You're getting as bad as DelC. It's been pointed out dozens of times that it is about CONTROL of immigration and deciding who comes here and not simply allowing anyone from 27 other countries to come here just because they want to. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp but you seem to be deliberately ignoring that fact.
		
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Perhaps some honesty from _Leavers_ that for many control over immigration means severely cut immigration.  As it happens I don't think that severe limitations (I actually meant constraints) will make very much difference whatsoever to immigration levels.  I read today of a Pret a Manger manager looking for staff,  50 applicants - one 'Brit'.  Seems that many of our out of work countrymen aren't too impressed by that sort of unskilled work.  Just as well we have plenty of immigrants willing and able.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And here's me and the Mrs staying in Embra Thursday night to have a look around Thursday/Friday - as she's thinking of us moving up within a couple of years...ah well...
		
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A scot moving to Scotland, that's a novelty.


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## pendodave (Mar 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps some honesty from _Leavers_ that for many control over immigration means severely cut immigration.  As it happens I don't think that severe limitations (I actually meant constraints) will make very much difference whatsoever to immigration levels.  I read today of a Pret a Manger manager looking for staff,  50 applicants - one 'Brit'.  Seems that many of our out of work countrymen aren't too impressed by that sort of unskilled work.  Just as well we have plenty of immigrants willing and able.
		
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One of the reasons productivity is so low in our country, and terms&conds so poor is the endless supply of cheap labour. Having a bit less of it might not be the worst thing, especially for those currently on the lowest wages.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2017)

And you're happy with that situation are you SiLH? A company based in the UK can fill a totally unskilled role with an overseas worker, from any of the EU27 countries, rather than advertise via a job centre and get an unemployed UK citizen off the dole and in to work. Control of immigration means that we can bring in the workers we need whether that is nurses, doctors, layers etc but why should we be allowing people to sit and rot on the dole rather than taking available jobs just because someone from Latvia happens to have applied. Cut out the low skilled immigrants and force our unemployed to work and still allow skilled migration for roles that are essential.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

Guys, using Norway with it's oil fund wealth is not really a clever answer.

Why did Westminster not follow their example in the 1970's.?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Guys, using Norway with it's oil fund wealth is not really a clever answer.

Why did Westminster not follow their example in the 1970's.?
		
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You have been asked a number of questions which you appear to be avoiding 

So which method would a Independent Scotland use to ensure they are financially viable - high taxes ? Borrow money ?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nations with a population of 5millionish include Denmark. *Norway*, Switzerland and New Zealand.
Last time I looked they seemed to be doing Ok.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



*Guys, using Norway with it's oil fund wealth is not really a clever answer.*

Why did Westminster not follow their example in the 1970's.?
		
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We didn't use Norway as an answer. *YOU* did.


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## lobthewedge (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Guys, using Norway with it's oil fund wealth is not really a clever answer.
		
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And to think I almost put a block on your posts, I might have missed this little corker.

Outstanding!


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## Raesy92 (Mar 13, 2017)

I always find it quite amusing when I hear 'If they don't get what they want, they'll just keep going until the decision suits them' or something similar.

If nothing had changed, the vote would go the same way, not the way those wanting another referendum would like. However, something as clearly changed in this instance. One of the key arguments for Better Together was that to guarantee staying in the EU the should vote NO. Apart from the currency issue I would imagine it was the next most spoken about aspect. 

Given the Scottish electorate voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU (unlike the tiny majority elsewhere) you would think this is enough of a reason to call for a second referendum.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Guys, using Norway with it's oil fund wealth is not really a clever answer.

Why did Westminster not follow their example in the 1970's.?
		
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Because they needed the revenue to subsidise overspending on welfare and Scotland.


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## Fish (Mar 13, 2017)

Everyone's going on about a second referendum, but hasn't TM got to give a green light for it, if so, what makes you think she will?


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have been asked a number of questions which you appear to be avoiding 

So which method would a Independent Scotland use to ensure they are financially viable - high taxes ? Borrow money ?
		
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...hoping for EU cash under the guise of being a underprivileged small place. 

 Trouble is, with UK gone, France likely to go and Netherlands similar.... other than the Germans....who exactly is going to fund the Federal States of Europe?   

...." eventually, socialism runs out of other peoples' money!"


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2017)

Fish said:



			Everyone's going on about a second referendum, but hasn't TM got to give a green light for it, if so, what makes you think she will?
		
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She will approve it.  She can't lose either way... Scotland leaving uk removes plenty of Labour MPs from Westminster.  Scotland staying wipes out the current First Minister


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2017)

IanM said:



			She will approve it.  She can't lose either way... Scotland leaving uk removes plenty of Labour MPs from Westminster.  Scotland staying wipes out the current First Minister
		
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FGS:blah::blah:............... There Is ONE yes ONE Labour Scottish MP at Westminster.

I give up.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2017)

Sturgeon and the SNP are the most insidious political party. They hide the truth with their weasel words, making noises about how they have a mandate to keep Scotland in the EU when they know full well they will do and say anything to promote their one trick pony politics to leave the UK.   They are inept at managing the economy due to the same single blinkered policy.

I just hope the Scottish people will reject them as the charlatans they really are.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			FGS:blah::blah:............... There Is ONE yes ONE Labour Scottish MP at Westminster.

*I give up.*

Click to expand...

Great news :whoo:


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## larmen (Mar 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			... they will do and say anything to promote their one trick pony politics to leave ...
		
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Well, some people really love these kind of things.


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## Val (Mar 13, 2017)

IanM said:



			She will approve it.  She can't lose either way... Scotland leaving uk removes plenty of Labour MPs from Westminster.  Scotland staying wipes out the current First Minister
		
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Scotland voting out removes over 50 SNP MP's plus others.

The U.K. will enjoy generations of Tory rule if Scotland votes YES to Independence, of course Westminster will approve it


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## Leftie (Mar 13, 2017)

Did you see Ms Crankie being interviewed on ITV this evening?  She had no real answers other than waffle.

Even for a politician, it was pathetic.  But hey, whatever floats her boat.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2017)

Edinburgh bloke on BBC (where else) radio tonight, saying that he thought there should be another referendum because Better Together made a big thing about being in the EU during the last referendum and now the UK is leaving the Scottish people had been lied to.
Yes, lied to. Even though we hadn't had the EU referendum at that point or even the General Election that elected the Tories who promised a referendum which everyone thought Remain would win.
And these people have a vote.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 14, 2017)

My biggest thought for those in Scotland who wish for independence to stay within the EU. Do you think the EU will change dramatically if/when UK leaves it, and therefore reduces the contributions going into the pot? If not, why not? If you do think it will change, what do you think will happen, and will it still be the same entity you want to be part of now?


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2017)

You know when you need something and you just can't find it, even though since you used it last time it's been there right until you need it?
Thats the fag packet the SNP did their economic calculations on the back of, the last time they had a referendum.


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2017)

Scotland has a deficit bigger that Greece. They will need more public sector workers to run the new Goverment deparments required which already is 14% of employed people. They will be forced to use the Euro.

Independence would be the silliest thing Scotland could voters for.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2017)

Nicola: Good news! I found the fag packet down the back of the drawer!
Alex: Great!
Nicola: Oh, hang on...
Alex: What?
Nicola: We had oil at $100 a barrel. It's $50 now.
Alex: Maybe we shouldn't mention that
Nicola: Alex?
Alex: Yes?
Nicola: Do we still want to keep the Pound?
Alex: Errr...
Nicola: And Alex, it says here we will benefit from closer ties to the US, citing business deals with a Mr Trump as an example of Scotland's openness for business.  Oh hang on, didn't you two have a quarrel? 
Alex: Yes, told him a thing or two.
Nicola: He hasn't been to any of his golf courses recently. I wonder what he is up to


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2017)

Alex: Nicola, did you phone that bloke up in Brussels to ask if we could join the EU if we won independence from the UK? You said you would check before you made that speech about demanding another referendum.
Nicola: Do I have to do everything around here?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Alex: Nicola, did you phone that bloke up in Brussels to ask if we could join the EU if we won independence from the UK? You said you would check before you made that speech about demanding another referendum.
Nicola: Do I have to do everything around here?
		
Click to expand...


.........


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## Crazyface (Mar 14, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Alex: Nicola, did you phone that bloke up in Brussels to ask if we could join the EU if we won independence from the UK? You said you would check before you made that speech about demanding another referendum.
Nicola: Do I have to do everything around here?
		
Click to expand...

Quality!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Edinburgh bloke on BBC (where else) radio tonight, saying that he thought there should be another referendum because Better Together made a big thing about being in the EU during the last referendum and now the UK is leaving the Scottish people had been lied to.
Yes, lied to. Even though we hadn't had the EU referendum at that point or even the General Election that elected the Tories who promised a referendum which everyone thought Remain would win.
And these people have a vote.
		
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hahahaha - you haven't listened to many Leave voters have you ....

And if the Tories had stuck to their manifesto promise of safeguarding the UK position in the single market then Indyref2 wouldn't be happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2017)

Fish said:



			Everyone's going on about a second referendum, but hasn't TM got to give a green light for it, if so, what makes you think she will?
		
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She does indeed.  And I think she will because she thinks (probably correctly) that Scots will vote to stay in the UK and that will truly be it done for 25yrs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She does indeed.  And I think she will because she thinks (probably correctly) that Scots will vote to stay in the UK and that will truly be it done for 25yrs.
		
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Yes, but that is what was stated last time. After another No vote there will simply be another "game changing moment" that will justify another vote. The whole reason for the SNP is to have Scotland outside of the UK. Another No vote wont stop that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes, but that is what was stated last time. After another No vote there will simply be another "game changing moment" that will justify another vote. The whole reason for the SNP is to have Scotland outside of the UK. Another No vote wont stop that.
		
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Not so sure.  That said - if Indyref2 rejects independence and 5 yrs down the line the post-Brexit UK economy is in a mess - with knock on impact on Scotland - I am sure there will be renewed calls.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hahahaha - you haven't listened to many Leave voters have you ....

And if the Tories had stuck to their manifesto promise of safeguarding the UK position in the single market then Indyref2 wouldn't be happening.
		
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Maybe you can show us where their manifesto said that.  I have looked through it a few times and cannot see it.  What they did say in it was:

"We will legislate in the first session of the next Parliament for an in-out referendum to be held on Britainâ€™s membership of the EU before the end of 2017. We will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in the EU. And then we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome."


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## larmen (Mar 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She does indeed.  And I think she will because she thinks (probably correctly) that Scots will vote to stay in the UK and that will truly be it done for 25yrs.
		
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That's basically the same gamble David Cameron took with the EU referendum, isn't it?


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hahahaha - you haven't listened to many Leave voters have you ....

And if the Tories had stuck to their manifesto promise of safeguarding the UK position in the single market then Indyref2 wouldn't be happening.
		
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Did you vote Tory?
Did you wonder how they could promise safeguarding our position in the single market whilst also promising an in/ out referendum?
Thought not.
BTW indyref2 isn't happening yet and probably won't and the fact that we are leaving the single market makes no difference to the SNP. The result of the referendum is just a good excuse to have another go. Sturgeon was talking about another referendum the morning after the EU referendum, before hard Brexit and soft Brexit had even been invented.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Did you vote Tory?
Did you wonder how they could promise safeguarding our position in the single market whilst also promising an in/ out referendum?
Thought not.
BTW indyref2 isn't happening yet and probably won't and the fact that we are leaving the single market makes no difference to the SNP. The result of the referendum is just a good excuse to have another go. Sturgeon was talking about another referendum the morning after the EU referendum, before hard Brexit and soft Brexit had even been invented.
		
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It would already appear likely that a 2nd Indy Ref is going to happen. The latest is that TM won't block it, just a matter of the timing.

I'm just wondering what will happen if the SNP win this time - best of 3 or penalty shoot-out?


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## Fish (Mar 14, 2017)

ger147 said:



			It would already appear likely that a 2nd Indy Ref is going to happen. The latest is that TM won't block it, just a matter of the timing.

*I'm just wondering what will happen if the SNP win this time* - best of 3 or penalty shoot-out?
		
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You'll be orphans, independent with nowhere to go as nobody wants you!


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## IanM (Mar 14, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you can show us where their manifesto said that.  I have looked through it a few times and cannot see it.  What they did say in it was:

"We will legislate in the first session of the next Parliament for an in-out referendum to be held on Britainâ€™s membership of the EU before the end of 2017. We will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in the EU. And then we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome."
		
Click to expand...

That was my understanding..... and net of not paying the subs and daft EU Regs...our position will probably be better than it was.  SNP needs someone to subsidise its Policies.  Not sure if the EU will be able to


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 14, 2017)

Let's say there will be another referendum, inevitable, and Scotland votes for independence. 5yrs down the line it has gone horribly wrong and Scotland asks to rejoin the UK. What would the process be?


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Let's say there will be another referendum, inevitable, and Scotland votes for independence. 5yrs down the line it has gone horribly wrong and Scotland asks to rejoin the UK. What would the process be?
		
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Borrow loads of cash, try and start a colony, it goes belly up and the BoE bail us out in return for re-joining i.e. same as last time?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 14, 2017)

Would there have to be a referendum where the rest of the UK are asked if Scotland should be allowed to rejoin?


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## Fish (Mar 14, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would there have to be a referendum where the rest of the UK are asked if Scotland should be allowed to rejoin?
		
Click to expand...

Hell yeah...:smirk:


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## Leftie (Mar 14, 2017)

New poll needed


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## lobthewedge (Mar 14, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Let's say there will be another referendum, inevitable, and Scotland votes for independence. 5yrs down the line it has gone horribly wrong and Scotland asks to rejoin the UK. What would the process be?
		
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Who says we would want to rejoin the uk? 

Maybe president trump could make us an offer and we could join up with our American cousins??


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 14, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			Who says we would want to rejoin the uk? 

Maybe president trump could make us an offer and we could join up with our American cousins??
		
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By all means. I was not trying to score points but there is a geographical and language link that makes it natural for Scotland to go with the rest of the UK if it so decided. It was a hypothetical question. (crackers you say but then look at what has happened in the last 12 months and you realise all sorts of things are possible now)

If Scotland wanted to become the 51st state then that would be something worth seeing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you can show us where their manifesto said that.  I have looked through it a few times and cannot see it.  What they did say in it was:

"We will legislate in the first session of the next Parliament for an in-out referendum to be held on Britainâ€™s membership of the EU before the end of 2017. We will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in the EU. And then we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome."
		
Click to expand...

Here you go - top of Page 72 (bullet point 4 - my bolding)

*Real change in our relationship
with the European Union*
Our commitment to you:

For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe. We will:


give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum
by the end of 2017

commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone

reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic

reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and *safeguard British interests in the Single Market*

back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape.

And so from the above it is very clear that the Tories saw a distinction between leaving the EU and leaving the Single Market - they are mentioned in separate bullets and not linked in these bullet points or in the text of the manifesto.  

And as @SR has pointed out the manifesto stated that a conservative government would honour the result of the In/Out EU referendum, not mention of Single Market in respect of the referendum


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## lobthewedge (Mar 14, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If Scotland wanted to become the 51st state then that would be something worth seeing.
		
Click to expand...


All you would see in Northumberland is one side of the big bloody wall the Donald would have us rebuild!


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as @SR has pointed out the manifesto stated that a conservative government would honour the result of the In/Out EU referendum, not mention of Single Market in respect of the referendum
		
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The manifesto also stated that they wouldn't raise NI contributions over the course of this parliament and we all know what happened there.

SiLH do you honestly believe that the EU will allow us to leave and yet remain in the single market and customs union? If not ,then how about waiting to see what access to the single market the government can get in the negotiations before spitting your dummy over them not protecting British interests.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			The manifesto also stated that they wouldn't raise NI contributions over the course of this parliament and we all know what happened there.

SiLH do you honestly believe that the EU will allow us to leave and yet remain in the single market and customs union? If not ,then how about waiting to see what access to the single market the government can get in the negotiations before spitting your dummy over them not protecting British interests.
		
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You try and justify breaking the SM commitment by citing another broken manifesto promises...LOL.  I rather think leaving the Single Market is somewhat more contentious and impacting than increasing NIC4 contributions average of 60p a week.

It is quite clear from the Tory Party Manifesto - Leaving the EU does not imply leaving the Single Market.  And the Tories gave a commitment to safeguarding British interests in the Single Market.

This is in black and white - it is not opinion.

Losing or weakening our interests in the Single Market is NOT a consequence of leaving the EU.  It may well be a consequence of deciding that total control of immigration is the be-all-and-end-all.  And it may well be the end of all.

So tell me - three simple questions

Did the Tory Party in their 2015 GE Manifesto commit to safeguarding British Interests in the Single Market?  

In what way are these interests in the SM going to be safeguarded by leaving the SM?

Why would any voter ever come to believe that Leaving the EU includes Leaving the SM?


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## NWJocko (Mar 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Here you go - top of Page 72 (bullet point 4 - my bolding)

*Real change in our relationship
with the European Union*
Our commitment to you:

For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe. We will:


give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum
by the end of 2017

commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone

reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic

reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and *safeguard British interests in the Single Market*

back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape.

And so from the above it is very clear that the Tories saw a distinction between leaving the EU and leaving the Single Market - they are mentioned in separate bullets and not linked in these bullet points or in the text of the manifesto.  

And as @SR has pointed out the manifesto stated that a conservative government would honour the result of the In/Out EU referendum, not mention of Single Market in respect of the referendum
		
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Aren't these bullet points talking about what would change assuming we were still in the EU?

I haven't read the whole manifesto as I'm not unhealthily obsessed like you but the context seems to be making changes from within? Could be wrong.....

On topic (as SILH transforms everything into Brecit!) I wonder if Sturgeon has overplayed her hand here trying to force it through before the terms of Brecit are known......


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 14, 2017)

I wasn't justifying anything. Just pointing out that when it comes to manifesto promises the government hasn't exactly stuck to them. And as you point out the no rise in NI was also   in black and white.

To answer your three questions....
Yes.
I have no idea until the results of the negotiations are known.
Possibly because leaving the EU means not abiding by the rules they lay down for access to the single market. But that's a guess as I can't speak for any voter.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			Aren't these bullet points talking about what would change assuming we were still in the EU?

I haven't read the whole manifesto as I'm not unhealthily obsessed like you but the context seems to be making changes from within? Could be wrong.....

On topic (as SILH transforms everything into Brecit!) I wonder if Sturgeon has overplayed her hand here trying to force it through before the terms of Brecit are known......
		
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Thats how I read it too but I see little point in debating it with Hogie as he'll only shift topic when you think you've made an undeniable point.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2017)

Pretty obvious to me the manifesto was written from the point of view of the UK as a member of the EU. As in all negotiations it's not in the U.K. Governments gift to state we will remain in the single market if we leave the EU. It also mentions reforming the workings of the EU which is not really possible if we are not in it, unless you count one of its biggest contributors leaving as a reform &#128512;


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2017)

One day, over the rainbow, 

No Government will implement anything not in their manifesto and they will implement everything written in said manifesto.

All the countries in the EU will implement regulations with equal effort; the EIB will be debt free. The French will be polite.
Spanish cops will not stop English run bars playing music while allowing the Spanish owned bar next door to what it likes 'til 5am.

Scotland will stop whinging about England and Sturgeon will move to Shetland to breed flying pigs !!

Delc and SWILH will enter a Euro-civil partnership and live happily ever after.


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2017)

SNP now screaming for democracy.  Not happy with democratic views of voters so I'm not sure what kind of democracy the SNP are after.


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## delc (Mar 14, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			SNP now screaming for democracy.  Not happy with democratic views of voters so I'm not sure what kind of democracy the SNP are after.
		
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All the reasons Mrs May gave for Scotland not leaving the UK Union also apply equally to the UK not leaving the European Union! &#128580;


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2017)

delc said:



			All the reasons Mrs May gave for Scotland not leaving the UK Union also apply equally to the UK not leaving the European Union! &#128580;
		
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I presume you forgot to add "In Your Opinion ".


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2017)

We will get a vote as well ?

Can't ever understand the want to leave the UK and join the EU ?!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Here you go - top of Page 72 (bullet point 4 - my bolding)

*Real change in our relationship
with the European Union*
Our commitment to you:

For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe. We will:


give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum
by the end of 2017 
commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone 
reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic 
reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and *safeguard British interests in the Single Market* 
back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape. 

And so from the above it is very clear that the Tories saw a distinction between leaving the EU and leaving the Single Market - they are mentioned in separate bullets and not linked in these bullet points or in the text of the manifesto.  

And as @SR has pointed out the manifesto stated that a conservative government would honour the result of the In/Out EU referendum, not mention of Single Market in respect of the referendum
		
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The single market is a major constituent part of the EU, if we leave the EU it stands that we will leave all of it.   Any future arrangements will be subject to negotiation on the terms of leaving and would form a new agreement with the EU.   Out means OUT. 

I disagree with you on your interpretation of how the manifesto makes any commitment to protecting the Single Market, it is clear that this only applies should the UK decide to remain.


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We will get a vote as well ?

Can't ever understand the want to leave the UK and join the EU ?!
		
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There were a number of Scots on the TV who admitted to voting for Independence last time around who did so just because becoming independent meant that they would automatically be out of the EU.

Spain once again making anti noises to them joining.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2017)




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## PieMan (Mar 14, 2017)

If IndyRef2 goes ahead, what about those areas of Scotland that vote to remain in the Union in the event of a 'yes' vote; will they be allowed to remain or will they demand a further referendum? Just interested as I heard on the news the other day that the Kingdom of Fife voted against independence last time out so would certainly be a relief if that was the case in terms of going to St Andrews and not having to worry about having to use whatever currency the rest of an independent Scotland was using! 



Sorry! 

Obviously a very emotive issue. After all the shenanigans with Brexit, will be interesting to see what will happen in any 'yes' vote and what say Westminster and Devolved Adminstration Parliaments will have on any deal brokered between the Government of the day and Scotland.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 14, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			Aren't these bullet points talking about what would change assuming we were still in the EU?

I haven't read the whole manifesto as I'm not unhealthily obsessed like you but the context seems to be making changes from within? Could be wrong.....

On topic (as SILH transforms everything into Brecit!) I wonder if Sturgeon has overplayed her hand here trying to force it through before the terms of Brecit are known......
		
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I would say she has played her hand brilliantly. If TM really does not want Scotland to leave the union, then she will try her damn hardest to make sure the Scottish people get a good deal in these Brexit negotiations. So by doing this it could be argued NS is doing what is in the best interests of the Scottish people. 

The terms of Brexit would be known by the time of the referendum vote, so if the terms agreed are not in Scotland's best interests, then the likelihood of independence will increase and Scotland will become an independent nation.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 14, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			SNP now screaming for democracy.  Not happy with democratic views of voters so I'm not sure what kind of democracy the SNP are after.
		
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The democratic views of the Scottish people was overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			I would say she has played her hand brilliantly. If TM really does not want Scotland to leave the union, then she will try her damn hardest to make sure the Scottish people get a good deal in these Brexit negotiations. So by doing this it could be argued NS is doing what is in the best interests of the Scottish people. 

The terms of Brexit would be known by the time of the referendum vote, so if the terms agreed are not in Scotland's best interests, then the likelihood of independence will increase and Scotland will become an independent nation.
		
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The terms of any Brexit agreement with the EU will be in Scotland's best interest as if they decide to leave the UK then they will be leaving their biggest single market by far and cutting off the hand that feeds them.   The EU will not want to offer a hand clasping gold and IMO would delay any application from Scotland to join, maybe indefinitely.    Independence would be the road to isolation and poverty.


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## NWJocko (Mar 14, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			I would say she has played her hand brilliantly. If TM really does not want Scotland to leave the union, then she will try her damn hardest to make sure the Scottish people get a good deal in these Brexit negotiations. So by doing this it could be argued NS is doing what is in the best interests of the Scottish people. 

The terms of Brexit would be known by the time of the referendum vote, so if the terms agreed are not in Scotland's best interests, then the likelihood of independence will increase and Scotland will become an independent nation.
		
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I guess I meant in terms of the lack of appetite from many in Scotland for another referendum so soon.

You and I both know that whatever terms are in place for Brexit the SNP are going to argue they aren't in the best interests of the SNP, sorry the Scottish people, don't we?

She played a political blinder (not unusual for the SNP, -/ I've said before they're great at that game which isn't a compliment) by a)stealing the thunder of the A50 announcement and b) takes the focus off their failings in govt as everyone will just be talking yes/no again........


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## Raesy92 (Mar 14, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The terms of any Brexit agreement with the EU will be in Scotland's best interest as if they decide to leave the UK then they will be leaving their biggest single market by far and cutting off the hand that feeds them.   The EU will not want to offer a hand clasping gold and IMO would delay any application from Scotland to join, maybe indefinitely.    Independence would be the road to isolation and poverty.
		
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Different Brexit agreements can be more or less beneficial. If TM wants Scotland to remain in the UK surely she'd negotiate with this in mind.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 14, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			I guess I meant in terms of the lack of appetite from many in Scotland for another referendum so soon.

You and I both know that whatever terms are in place for Brexit the SNP are going to argue they aren't in the best interests of the SNP, sorry the Scottish people, don't we?

She played a political blinder (not unusual for the SNP, -/ I've said before they're great at that game which isn't a compliment) by a)stealing the thunder of the A50 announcement and b) takes the focus off their failings in govt as everyone will just be talking yes/no again........
		
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But at least if these failings happened in an independent Scotland. We could decide who we want to replace the SNP. While Scotland has devolved powers, we don't have control over the total budget. Cuts from Westminster on areas that do not concern education, can still have a negative impact on education.


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## NWJocko (Mar 14, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			But at least if these failings happened in an independent Scotland. We could decide who we want to replace the SNP. While Scotland has devolved powers, we don't have control over the total budget. Cuts from Westminster on areas that do not concern education, can still have a negative impact on education.
		
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Can you not decide now to replace the SNP....!? The problem is there isn't credible opposition, would you see that changing post independence?

I get that you're pro Independence which is fine, just sad that the divide the last referendum caused is still raw and is already getting ramped up by the SNP for their own opportunist gains.

I'm no Tory but some merit in what May said about the SNP spending more time actually doing their day jobs better ratter than constantly agitating for another Indy vote. Oldest political trick in the book to distract the electorate......


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## Raesy92 (Mar 14, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			Can you not decide now to replace the SNP....!? The problem is there isn't credible opposition, would you see that changing post independence?

I get that you're pro Independence which is fine, just sad that the divide the last referendum caused is still raw and is already getting ramped up by the SNP for their own opportunist gains.

I'm no Tory but some merit in what May said about the SNP spending more time actually doing their day jobs better ratter than constantly agitating for another Indy vote. Oldest political trick in the book to distract the electorate......
		
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What I was getting at is that while the SNP do have some powers, they do not have total control over all matters. I am pro-independence, but I am not pro SNP. 

Apart from the SNP what opposition party is there to challenge the Tories though? Scottish labour are all but finished.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 14, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Apart from the SNP what opposition party is there to challenge the Tories though? Scottish labour are all but finished.
		
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Not just Scottish Labour as long as Corbyn stays as leader.


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## NWJocko (Mar 14, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			What I was getting at is that while the SNP do have some powers, they do not have total control over all matters. I am pro-independence, but I am not pro SNP. 

Apart from the SNP what opposition party is there to challenge the Tories though? Scottish labour are all but finished.
		
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I'm not necessarily anti independence but very much anti SNP! 

The fact there is no opposition in Scotland would scare the bejesus out of me even more looking beyond a yes vote..... The SNP hardly have a sparkling record of governing, given even more freedom (pardon the pun ) god only knows how they would fare with no real opposition to keep them in check......

I am enormously sceptical whenever the SNP say they are doing something in the best interests of the Scottish people....!


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## Raesy92 (Mar 14, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			I'm not necessarily anti independence but very much anti SNP! 

The fact there is no opposition in Scotland would scare the bejesus out of me even more looking beyond a yes vote..... The SNP hardly have a sparkling record of governing, given even more freedom (pardon the pun ) god only knows how they would fare with no real opposition to keep them in check......

I am enormously sceptical whenever the SNP say they are doing something in the best interests of the Scottish people....!
		
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If Scotland were to become independent, the SNP would more than likely break apart. Different political parties would come to the table and there would be a more widespread choice available. I very much doubt the SNP would continue as is. More chance of the Tories having complete control for the next few decades than the SNP dominating for the same stretch of time in an indy Scotland.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 14, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not just Scottish Labour as long as Corbyn stays as leader.
		
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Which makes it all the more worrying. Complete Tory rule with no credible opposition, not good for democracy.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Different Brexit agreements can be more or less beneficial. If TM wants Scotland to remain in the UK surely she'd negotiate with this in mind.
		
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The SNP are not really bothered about the EU, they just use Brexit so they can use their weasel words to promote independence; their only real objective irrespective of the damage it will inflict.   As I have said the UK is massively Scotland's most important market and supporter.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 14, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Which makes it all the more worrying. Complete Tory rule with no credible opposition, not good for democracy.
		
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Not at all but the hope has to be that if/when Labour get totally destroyed at the next election with Corbyn as leader they will get rid of him and elect a leader that will be less divisive and actually have a chance of winning a general election.


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2017)

It will be very interesting to see what sort of Scotland the SNP will be offering to entice people to vote yes. 

What happens if they can't offer a guaranteed membership of the EU? And if they can guarantee membership, on what terms(contribution)? 

With exports of Â£48bn to the U.K., and Â£12bn to the EU, I hope the SNP can garner a good trade deal. But what happens if they are members of the EU, and Brussels says no trade deal with the U.K.?

Should be fun.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It will be very interesting to see what sort of Scotland the SNP will be offering to entice people to vote yes. 

What happens if they can't offer a guaranteed membership of the EU? And if they can guarantee membership, on what terms(contribution)? 

With exports of Â£48bn to the U.K., and Â£12bn to the EU, I hope the SNP can garner a good trade deal. But what happens if they are members of the EU, and Brussels says no trade deal with the U.K.?

Should be fun.
		
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The SNP will offer anything they want to entice people to vote 'Yes'.    The problem I see for Scotland is that if they go Indy and things probably go bad then the SNP will be turfed out and someone else will have to try and sort out the mess.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			The democratic views of the Scottish people was overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU.
		
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Not sure anymore what democracy means. I take it the views of the majority no longer matter.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It will be very interesting to see what sort of Scotland the SNP will be offering to entice people to vote yes. 

What happens if they can't offer a guaranteed membership of the EU? And if they can guarantee membership, on what terms(contribution)? 

With exports of Â£48bn to the U.K., and Â£12bn to the EU, I hope the SNP can garner a good trade deal. But what happens if they are members of the EU, and Brussels says no trade deal with the U.K.?

Should be fun.
		
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Funny how remainers on the other thread aren't asking "What is the plan" if the road to independence is accomplished.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 15, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			The democratic views of the Scottish people was overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU.
		
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And the uk, although the nats are picking and choosing which referenda results suit their separatist agenda.


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## DCB (Mar 15, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			I'm not necessarily anti independence but very much anti SNP! 

The fact there is no opposition in Scotland would scare the bejesus out of me even more looking beyond a yes vote..... The SNP hardly have a sparkling record of governing, given even more freedom (pardon the pun ) god only knows how they would fare with no real opposition to keep them in check......

I am enormously sceptical whenever the SNP say they are doing something in the best interests of the Scottish people....!
		
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Some spectacular cockups from the SNP include creating a single national Fire and Rescue Service and creating Police Scotland out of several local fire services and police forces. Straight away these bodies lost their VAT exempt status and now have to pay a not inconsiderable sum of VAT on an ongoing annual basis. So much for streamlining and cost saving. The education system has been tweaked and tinkered with, if not annually, then at least every couple of years. This has caused confusion and mayhem in the class rooms and the end result is a drop off i standards across the whole school system. The Free Prescriptions means that people go to the doctor to get a script for paracetamol when they could buy them at very little cost across the counter. Those on long term medication used to need a pre paid certificate for their meds to keep costs down, now it's all free... at a huge cost to the country.  Some classic blunders on major infrastructure projects as well have meant a lot of "rob peter to pay paul" scenarios as money is moved about to make everything look as if there is no problem.

Donald Dewar has a lot to answer for !


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2017)

^^^^^Heretic &#128522;


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## IanM (Mar 15, 2017)

So, the SNP argument for 2nd Referendum is that they want to see if the financial deal is better in an Independent UK, or the EU?

Nothing to do with Independence then, more about who'll give them the most funding?  Who knows.

But, I will respect whatever Scotland votes for......... and I wont go on about it for months!


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## Val (Mar 15, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			The democratic views of the Scottish people was overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU.
		
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We also voted to remain within the U.K. But that seems to have been forgotten conveniently.


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## User62651 (Mar 15, 2017)

Val said:



			We also voted to remain within the U.K. But that seems to have been forgotten conveniently.
		
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No point moaning about that until more people stop voting SNP. 
That might happen if Labour or another UK wide party get themselves in order or the Tory party sees past it's well-off southern bias but until then the party in power in Holyrood (with assistance from minor parties as needs be) will try and meets its goals via the legal and democratic means. 

It's simple, dont vote SNP in Scotland if you dont want Indyrefs, otherwise get used to it. UK government is Conservative and runs the rule over all of us with a 22% vote share in Scotland and 37% vote share UK wide. Hardly fair but was politics ever fair.

May's primary objective is to get as much of the massive 12%+ UKIP vote share at last GE back to the Tories for their benefit. She'll only do that through a hard brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			What I was getting at is that while the SNP do have some powers, they do not have total control over all matters. I am pro-independence, but I am not pro SNP. 

Apart from the SNP what opposition party is there to challenge the Tories though? Scottish labour are all but finished.
		
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Quite.  At the next Westminster GE in 2020 the Scottish electorate could turn against the SNP en masse - and elect 59 Labour MPs.  Yet Labour's failures and potential collapse in England and Wales might make that all a waste of time - with Scotland (and the rUK) facing the prospect of a Tory government until 2030 GE.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The SNP will offer anything they want to entice people to vote 'Yes'.    The problem I see for Scotland is that if they go Indy and things probably go bad then the SNP *will be turfed out and someone else will have to try and sort out the mess*.
		
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A wee bit like 'you know what' then


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## NWJocko (Mar 15, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			Aren't these bullet points talking about what would change assuming we were still in the EU?

I haven't read the whole manifesto as I'm not unhealthily obsessed like you but the context seems to be making changes from within? Could be wrong.....
		
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No answer for this question SiLH?

Just I saw you still banging on about the "broken manifesto commitment" on another thread......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			No answer for this question SiLH?

Just I saw you still banging on about the "broken manifesto commitment" on another thread...... 

Click to expand...

What question

And the manifesto point in respect of the Single Market being broken.  As if really care. 

However the point is that no-one who voted to Leave the EU can claim that leaving the EU inevitably included leaving the SM - and that those who have said that they *knew* that a vote to Leave would also inevitably mean leaving the single market are either telling porkies or were misinformed - as it did not - and never did.  The Tory Party manifesto was quite clear that the Tories did not want or expect leaving the EU to result in leaving the SM.  But such is the level of misinformation and misunderstanding about immigration.

Anyway - no more from me on that on this thread.


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## NWJocko (Mar 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What question

And the manifesto point in respect of the Single Market being broken.  As if really care. 

However the point is that no-one who voted to Leave the EU can claim that leaving the EU inevitably included leaving the SM - and that those who have said that they *knew* that a vote to Leave would also inevitably mean leaving the single market are either telling porkies or were misinformed - as it did not - and never did.  The Tory Party manifesto was quite clear that the Tories did not want or expect leaving the EU to result in leaving the SM.  But such is the level of misinformation and misunderstanding about immigration.

Anyway - no more from me on that on this thread.
		
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Take a look at my original post, fairly simple concept you need to understand if you use forums...... 

Alternatively, throw your toys out the pram and keep prattling on in other threads :thup:


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## IanM (Mar 15, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			No point moaning about that until more people stop voting SNP. .
		
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Absolutely.  

Loving the fact that SILH is still going on about folk not understanding about the Single Market.  Virtually all of the Remain Campaign was based on this being a real danger of leaving and the Leave campaign saying it was a goal.


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## Twire (Mar 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			However the point is that no-one who voted to Leave the EU can claim that leaving the EU inevitably included leaving the SM - and that those who have said that they *knew* that a vote to Leave would also inevitably mean leaving the single market are either telling porkies or were misinformed - as it did not - and never did.  The Tory Party manifesto was quite clear that the Tories did not want or expect leaving the EU to result in leaving the SM.  But such is the level of misinformation and misunderstanding about immigration.

Anyway - no more from me on that on this thread.
		
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I think this is quite clear 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MaYV778kgU


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## drdel (Mar 15, 2017)

If Scotland gained independence what would the political particpants be. Perhaps the SNP are hoping they would be unchallenged.


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## Val (Mar 15, 2017)

drdel said:



			If Scotland gained independence what would the political particpants be. Perhaps the SNP are hoping they would be unchallenged.
		
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It would have the same parties that fight the Scottish elections but I do agree we may see the SNP split. Worth noting that the last Scottish elections saw a move away from SNP hence why they no longer enjoy a majority at Holyrood and rely on the Greens support to have the right to another independence referendum pass through Holyrood


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 15, 2017)

Val said:



			It would have the same parties that fight the Scottish elections but I do agree we may see the SNP split. Worth noting that the last Scottish elections saw a move away from SNP hence why they no longer enjoy a majority at Holyrood and rely on the Greens support to have the right to another independence referendum pass through Holyrood
		
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Val.....you know that it was based on the second vote. [ie Complacent SNP voters supporting the Greens]
If not, perhaps you can tell all the uninformed on here how many directly elected Labour, Tory and others candidates were elected by public vote and not selected by list votes.

[Sod it I swore to keep off this thread due to silly posts like above.]


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			The democratic views of the Scottish people was overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU.
		
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This is the SNP's big Blooper.   Everyone knows that the EU referendum was a question put to the UK overall and not a regional vote but the SNP are using their weasel words again to suggest it gave them some kind of mandate to keep Scotland in.  This type of talk is akin o suggesting Wales (for example) didn't return a majority of Tory MPs in the last election so have a mandate not to be ruled by the current government.     I am astounded that so many are taken in by it.


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## User62651 (Mar 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			This is the SNP's big Blooper.   Everyone knows that the EU referendum was a question put to the UK overall and not a regional vote but the SNP are using their weasel words again to suggest it gave them some kind of mandate to keep Scotland in.  This type of talk is akin o suggesting Wales (for example) didn't return a majority of Tory MPs in the last election so have a mandate not to be ruled by the current government.    * I am astounded that so many are taken in by it*.
		
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Not sure you can claim that, there hasn't been any new election since EU ref last summer to test that theory! Of course SNP will use that, they'll use whatever they can for their end goal. What isn't known is how many of the 38% who voted to leave the EU up here are also SNP voters, however this is a gamble the SNP have to take, they're never going to have a better opportunity to get what they want. 
As a party they have hugely varying political views but tow the party line for the one common goal of independence, if that was achieved the party would dissolve as we know it. They are extremely well organised and pretty disciplined, also have a lot of talented people on board, whilst other political groups flounder they have gained a lot of ground and held it.


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## ger147 (Mar 15, 2017)

An early application for the head of the Better Together 2 campaign?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/you-fg-jock-cs-englishman-10033610


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## Val (Mar 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Val.....you know that it was based on the second vote. [ie Complacent SNP voters supporting the Greens]
If not, perhaps you can tell all the uninformed on here how many directly elected Labour, Tory and others candidates were elected by public vote and not selected by list votes.

[Sod it I swore to keep off this thread due to silly posts like above.]
		
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Do you want an answer or will I do as you always do?


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2017)

Any news from Hogie and Doon on what the SNP plan is for getting acceptance into the EU and the Euro.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 15, 2017)

Val said:



			Do you want an answer or will I do as you always do?
		
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#Elections

There you go. 
Number of non SNP MSP's elected by public vote in last Scottish Election

3 Labour 
4 LiebDems
7 Ruth Davidson No Surrender Party [called that as the words Scottish Conservatives was missing from their election leaflets]

11 out of a total of 129 MSP's


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#Elections

There you go. 
Number of non SNP MSP's elected by public vote in last Scottish Election

3 Labour 
4 LiebDems
7 Ruth Davidson No Surrender Party [called that as the words Scottish Conservatives was missing from their election leaflets]

11 out of a total of 129 MSP's
		
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Go check your 11 from 129 again and then I'll entertain you. I'll give you a clue, there are 73 constituencies not 129. 

If your numbers were correct then the SNP would have an overwhelming majority which they don't, why is that?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2017)

Val said:



			Go check your 11 from 129 again and then I'll entertain you. I'll give you a clue, there are 73 constituencies not 129. 

If your numbers were correct then the SNP would have an overwhelming majority which they don't, why is that?
		
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Just being economical with the truth as you were when you said support for the SNP fell when it in fact rose.

Fact ......there are 129 MSP's
Fact ......only 11 non  SNP MSP's were elected by public vote


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just being economical with the truth as you were when you said support for the SNP fell when it in fact rose.

Fact ......there are 129 MSP's
Fact ......only 11 non  SNP MSP's were elected by public vote
		
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Do the 56 regional MSP's not get elected by votes?

Facts are facts, the SNP no longer have a majority, that is a fall in support regardless of how you spin it. They won more seats previously using the exact same voting system.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2017)

Val said:



			Do the 56 regional MSP's not get elected by votes?

Facts are facts, the SNP no longer have a majority, that is a fall in support regardless of how you spin it. They won more seats previously using the exact same voting system.
		
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As you know that support was gained by the green party.
No real change as they are strong supporters of Scottish Independence.
Votes cast for the SNP rose by 1.1%


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## Sweep (Mar 16, 2017)

Seemingly Doon is counting "Regional Additional Members" whatever they are.
Quite significant though as they make the Greens go from no representation to 6 which gives them the balance of power if they vote with the SNP.
Maybe it's a PR style system with the usual predictable results of the parties no-one votes for getting all the power.


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## Sweep (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As you know that support was gained by the green party.
No real change as they are strong supporters of Scottish Independence.
		
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I wonder what Scottish independence will do for the environment? Must be something in it to get the Greens interested. Does Nicola have a bag for life?


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As you know that support was gained by the green party.
No real change as they are strong supporters of Scottish Independence.
Votes cast for the SNP rose by 1.1%
		
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Whatever way you spin it, seats lost by the SNP and gained by the greens are still seats list by the SNP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Seemingly Doon is counting "Regional Additional Members" whatever they are.
Quite significant though as they make the Greens go from no representation to 6 which gives them the balance of power if they vote with the SNP.
Maybe it's a PR style system with the usual predictable results of the parties no-one votes for getting all the power.
		
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The system was designed so that no single party would be able to gain control.........SNP broke the system with a massive vote and was a couple of seats short of retaining it last year.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2017)

Val said:



			Whatever way you spin it, seats lost by the SNP and gained by the greens are still seats list by the SNP.
		
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We are at cross purposes here regarding your definition of 'Support'....you said SNP support fell but votes cast rose by 1.1%

Due to support for Greens the SNP list MSP's numbers dropped.  I am not 'spinning' that.
More votes /less seats for SNP


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I wonder what Scottish independence will do for the environment? Must be something in it to get the Greens interested.* Does Nicola have a bag for life*?
		
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There's a good reply to that one but I wont say it


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## Sweep (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The system was designed so that no single party would be able to gain control.........SNP broke the system with a massive vote and was a couple of seats short of retaining it last year.
		
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Why would you design a system that favoured against a decisive result?


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## DCB (Mar 16, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Why would you design a system that favoured against a decisive result?
		
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The idea behind the Scottish Parliament was to have a Government that had to take into account the views of others and work with others to run the country.


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## delc (Mar 16, 2017)

DCB said:



			The idea behind the Scottish Parliament was to have a Government that had to take into account the views of others and work with others to run the country.
		
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I wish that was the case in England and the whole UK, where the Tories currently have a monopoly and can do what they like. The EU Parliament is elected by proportional representation, just to avoid this situation. It ensures that policies have to be agreed by consensus.


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

delc said:



			I wish that was the case in England and the whole UK, where the Tories currently have a monopoly and can do what they like. The EU Parliament is elected by proportional representation, just to avoid this situation. It ensures that policies have to be agreed by consensus.
		
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And will do for generations if Scotland vote for independence. The UK either need to reform the electoral system or pray that the opposition parties get their act together which doesn't look like happening anytime soon.


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We are at cross purposes here regarding your definition of 'Support'....you said SNP support fell but votes cast rose by 1.1%

Due to support for Greens the SNP list MSP's numbers dropped.  I am not 'spinning' that.
More votes /less seats for SNP
		
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The electorate rose by over 5% but only 1% in support of the SNP, surely if the SNP were that popular you would expect a higher shift? I maintain regardless of numbers that overall support is diminishing. It certainly strengthened in Lanarkshire where I live but if it had strengthened further across the country then we would have seen a second SNP majority at Holyrood last year especially just 1 year after the whitewash we seen at the GE, however that didn't happen.

I agree support has strengthened in certain areas but not all.


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2017)

Are there some yes voters that aren't SNP voters?


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## ger147 (Mar 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Are there some yes voters that aren't SNP voters?
		
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Yes - only anecdotal of course but my boss votes Tory but is also a Yes voter when it comes to Scottish Independence.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Any news from Hogie and Doon on what the SNP plan is for getting acceptance into the EU and the Euro.
		
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 Any news from the SNP on what they would do if they got Independence and failed to get into the EU.  Lets call it .............................. Plan B


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2017)

Twire said:



			I think this is quite clear 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MaYV778kgU

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It was all lies - all Project Fear - all rubbish - so claimed Project Leave.  And it was the complete opposite to what these same Tories said in the GE Manifesto.  However in the context of the words quite probably preceding those spoken in the interviews i.e. something like 'if we stop Freedom of Movement' then they are correct.


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## Twire (Mar 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was all lies - all Project Fear - all rubbish - so claimed Project Leave.  And it was the complete opposite to what these same Tories said in the GE Manifesto,
		
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You really have lost the plot, stand back and take the blinkers off.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was all lies - all Project Fear - all rubbish - so claimed Project Leave.  And it was the complete opposite to what these same Tories said in the GE Manifesto,
		
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Whats this to do with IndeyRef2

Still waiting for your Plan B


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Any news from Hogie and Doon on what the SNP plan is for getting acceptance into the EU and the Euro.
		
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The Scottish Government may well not look to join the EU - they may look to have access to the Single Market - probably in return for freedom of movement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2017)

Twire said:



			You really have lost the plot, stand back and take the blinkers off.
		
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Please do not pretend that the Leave campaign did not dismiss statements by Remain that said leaving the EU means leaving the SM.  Yes - some Leave campaigners said that out of choicer we'd leave the SM as well as the EU - but many simply dismissed *having * to leave the SM as Project Fear.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Scottish Government may well not look to join the EU - they may look to have access to the Single Market - probably in return for freedom of movement.
		
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So the SNP plan is not to join the EU, but I though they wanted another referendum because the majority in the UK wanted out of the EU and they didn't think that was in their interests (like we believed that).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			So the SNP plan is not to join the EU, but I though they wanted another referendum because the majority in the UK wanted out of the EU and they didn't think that was in their interests (like we believed that).
		
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You asked for a Plan B...

If you listen to the Scottish FM she is clear that the Scottish Government would be OK at the moment with a UK Leave deal that included tariff free access to the Single Market.  She has been asked a lot of times in the last couple of days whether she'd retract her call for Indyref2 if May walked back her Lancaster House statement on the UK will be leaving the Single Market.  Her reply has been that May has shown absolutely no indication whatsoever that that is a possibility.


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## PieMan (Mar 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Scottish Government may well not look to join the EU - they may look to have access to the Single Market - probably in return for freedom of movement.
		
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Something which they would have to pay for, but actually have no say over when decisions are made? IMO that's worse than actually being a Member.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2017)

PieMan said:



			Something which they would have to pay for, but actually have no say over when decisions are made? IMO that's worse than actually being a Member.
		
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Nonetheless - it's Plan B - and one that seems to work OK for Norway


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Are there some yes voters that aren't SNP voters?
		
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Yes, there are also some SNP voters who will vote NO (no alternative due to policies for example)


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You asked for a Plan B...

If you listen to the Scottish FM she is clear that the Scottish Government would be OK at the moment with a UK Leave deal that included tariff free access to the Single Market.  She has been asked a lot of times in the last couple of days whether she'd retract her call for Indyref2 if May walked back her Lancaster House statement on the UK will be leaving the Single Market.  Her reply has been that May has shown absolutely no indication whatsoever that that is a possibility.
		
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Good Plan B - Hedge bets and see what the UK Government walk away with. Nether you nor I know what is going to be negotiated, perhaps the EU might suggest a deal that gives the UK access but it is not for our Government to suggest it as we (that's all of us) are down to leave.


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Good Plan B - Hedge bets and see what the UK Government walk away with. Nether you nor I know what is going to be negotiated, perhaps the EU might suggest a deal that gives the UK access but it is not for our Government to suggest it as we (that's all of us) are down to leave.
		
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Ah but Nicola Sturgeon does. That's why she's going for Indeyref2 before the axe falls.


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

So TM says no to indyref2, at least not yet. No surprise there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2017)

Struth.
The recent actions of Davis....the man with no plan, The Hamster doing screeching U turns and now PM Mayhem latest ravings the BBC Scotlandshire political pundits seem to have all converted to Independence. Has hell frozen over.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Struth.
The recent actions of Davis....the man with no plan,
		
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Bugger stolen Sturgons ideas.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 16, 2017)

Val said:



			So TM says no to indyref2, at least not yet. No surprise there.
		
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The sensible option is to have Indy 2 about 6 months after we have actually left the EU, not announced leaving but actually left. The UK govt needs to concentrate on dealing with Brexit and all of its implications. Once the deal has been done and cleared off the desks the coast is clear for all that a referendum brings. The voters can then make a decision with the full implications of Brexit clear to see and if they vote to leave the UK then the govt officials can deal with that without having to deal with Brussels at the same time. It was impractical to expect any govt to be able to deal with two divorces at the same time, if it comes to that. 

Indyref2 is coming but it should not be to the detriment of the UK as a whole so TM is quite right to push it back for now.


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The sensible option is to have Indy 2 about 6 months after we have actually left the EU, not announced leaving but actually left. The UK govt needs to concentrate on dealing with Brexit and all of its implications. Once the deal has been done and cleared off the desks the coast is clear for all that a referendum brings. The voters can then make a decision with the full implications of Brexit clear to see and if they vote to leave the UK then the govt officials can deal with that without having to deal with Brussels at the same time. It was impractical to expect any govt to be able to deal with two divorces at the same time, if it comes to that. 

Indyref2 is coming but it should not be to the detriment of the UK as a whole so TM is quite right to push it back for now.
		
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100% agree. We do not know what a U.K. Free from the EU is going to look like so how can people make an informed choice


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2017)

Val said:



			So TM says no to indyref2, at least not yet. No surprise there.
		
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Same as Nicola said......they are both in agreement.

Now read tomorrows newspapers for a totally different story.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2017)

QT from sleepy old Bognar tonight........should be comedy gold.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Same as Nicola said......they are both in agreement.

Now read tomorrows newspapers for a totally different story.
		
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Didn't seem as though Sturgeon was agreeing when she was accusing May of being undemocratic on Twitter earlier today and suggesting that it would have been similar to if Brussels had said the UK couldn't have a referendum.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2017)

My favourite but was this.....

Ms Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, told BBC Scotland: "It is an argument for independence really in a nutshell, that Westminster thinks it has got the right to block the democratically elected mandate of the Scottish government and the majority in the Scottish Parliament.
"You know history may look back on today and see it as the day the fate of the union was sealed."


As far as the first point goes then yes, by law, Westminster does have the right to block the referendum. 

And as the second point is your sole raison d'etre why are you getting so het up about it?


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## KenL (Mar 16, 2017)

Once in a generation, that is what they said a couple of years ago.

The SNP can jog on.  The majority of Scots do not want independence let alone another ref so soon.  They just don't listen.


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

KenL said:



			Once in a generation, that is what they said a couple of years ago.

The SNP can jog on.  The majority of Scots do not want independence let alone another ref so soon.  They just don't listen.
		
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Correct


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 16, 2017)

Val said:



			Correct
		
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So what you're saying is, there should be a referendum, on whether or not to hold a referendum?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 16, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So what you're saying is, there should be a referendum, on whether or not to hold a referendum?
		
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I was thinking that too &#128522;


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## lobthewedge (Mar 16, 2017)

"Thats enough nicola, away'n play for now and let the grown ups talk"


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## Val (Mar 16, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So what you're saying is, there should be a referendum, on whether or not to hold a referendum?
		
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No, as per the quoted post I'm agreeing that it was once on a generation and the majority of scots don't want Independence or another referendum


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## Raesy92 (Mar 16, 2017)

Well if Scotland do not want it again, let us decide for ourselves and you may be proven correct. 

I would imagine a failed second vote so soon after the first one will see the SNP lose credibility.


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## KenL (Mar 17, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Well if Scotland do not want it again, let us decide for ourselves and you may be proven correct. 

I would imagine a failed second vote so soon after the first one will see the SNP lose credibility.
		
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I don't think they currently have any credibility!  All in the garden is not rosey but all they are interested in is another referendum.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2017)

May tells Sturgeon, "no referendum vote for at least 6 years." Prove you have a mandate for independence at the 2021 Scottish elections. 

Mmm, a bit canny. That could be a double edged sword for the SNP. That could see SNP election voters, but no voters for independence, either not voting in the election or switching their vote to another party. Could be a bit of a blinder there by May.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 17, 2017)

This week program last night, the snp member was implying that European union entry was rubber stamped and announcment on the new  currency forthcoming.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			May tells Sturgeon, "no referendum vote for at least 6 years." Prove you have a mandate for independence at the 2021 Scottish elections.
		
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Hell no. I can't take 6 more years of this. Nicola moaning constantly for 6 years . Get Brexit out of the way, new vote, goodbye, thank you.


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hell no. I can't take 6 more years of this. Nicola moaning constantly for 6 years . Get Brexit out of the way, new vote, goodbye, thank you.
		
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EU extraction is going to take at least a decade after UK actually leaves, given that scenario an Indyref2 needs addressed. Time the UK as we know it was shaken up big style, it is not working. May is not handling any of this well imo, she doesn't believe in Brexit anyway, only interested in her own power trip, out of her depth.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2017)

Wasn't Johanna Cherry QC quite magnificent on QT last night.

Never seen such a silenced QT audience. Or panel come to that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			EU extraction is going to take at least a decade after UK actually leaves, given that scenario an Indyref2 needs addressed. Time the UK as we know it was shaken up big style, it is not working. May is not handling any of this well imo, she doesn't believe in Brexit anyway, only interested in her own power trip, out of her depth.
		
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If you take it to the nth degree it could take 10yrs, 20yrs etc. However, everything will be decided and in place in 2yrs time. Then we have to get on with it. 

If I was Scottish and not rabidly looking for independence from the UK then I think I would also want to see what the deal was for the UK leaving the EU. There must surely be lots of people in that position. See the deal and then decide. If they vote before knowing what is on offer then once again you are voting with one eye closed and holding a wet finger up in the wind.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you take it to the nth degree it could take 10yrs, 20yrs etc. However, everything will be decided and in place in 2yrs time. Then we have to get on with it. 

If I was Scottish and not rabidly looking for independence from the UK then I think I would also want to see what the deal was for the UK leaving the EU. There must surely be lots of people in that position. See the deal and then decide. If they vote before knowing what is on offer then once again you are voting with one eye closed and holding a wet finger up in the wind.
		
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Its probably all part of the SNP's plan for disinformation. Prior to the Brexit deal being finalised they can portray doom and gloom to the nth degree, and disputing it becomes a, "yes you did, no we didn't" argument.

If the UK manages to arrange a good deal it could sway some of the borderline yes/no's to vote no. But if the vote is before Brexit it will be easier to get a yes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you take it to the nth degree it could take 10yrs, 20yrs etc. However, everything will be decided and in place in 2yrs time. Then we have to get on with it. 

If I was Scottish and not rabidly looking for independence from the UK then I think I would also want to see what the deal was for the UK leaving the EU. There must surely be lots of people in that position. See the deal and then decide. If they vote before knowing what is on offer then once again you are voting with one eye closed and holding a wet finger up in the wind.
		
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The UK plans should be completed in 18 months to allow 6 months for EU scrutiny.
I think that ties in with Nicola's timeline.

Re your last line....trying not to be too simplistic but is that not just what the EU Referendum voters did a few months ago ?


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## Val (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK plans should be completed in 18 months to allow 6 months for EU scrutiny.
I think that ties in with Nicola's timeline.

Re your last line....trying not to be too simplistic but is that not just what the EU Referendum voters did a few months ago ?
		
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Doon, let me ask you this question. Do you believe it better to have a referendum within that timescale where if agreed it would exclude the Scottish governments involvement from Brexit talks therefore potentially ignoring any possibility of a better deal and in the event of a No vote to independence we are in a poorer position than we could have been?

For me the option is the Scottish government wait until the Brexit process is complete and then call a referendum if it doesn't like its bag. That way all parties have pushed for common ground in our EU split and also the Scottish people have a better version of which path to follow. 

Better to learn from previous mistakes from the EU referendum where people didn't know what they were voting for


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re your last line....trying not to be too simplistic but is that not just what the EU Referendum voters did a few months ago ?
		
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Learn from a mistake then. 

Val's point is on the same lines as mine I think and they are valid questions. Not partisan, it just makes more sense to have this information. Incidentally, I'm all for Scottish independence, different reasons than you for the same end result, but at the moment holding the ref now is against the best interests of the whole of the UK and that can't be allowed to happen.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2017)

Val said:



			Doon, let me ask you this question. Do you believe it better to have a referendum within that timescale where if agreed it would exclude the Scottish governments involvement from Brexit talks therefore potentially ignoring any possibility of a better deal and in the event of a No vote to independence we are in a poorer position than we could have been?

For me the option is the Scottish government wait until the Brexit process is complete and then call a referendum if it doesn't like its bag. That way all parties have pushed for common ground in our EU split and also the Scottish people have a better version of which path to follow. 

Better to learn from previous mistakes from the EU referendum where people didn't know what they were voting for
		
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There is no guarantee with either choice.
The three devolved nations have been treated with utter contempt by half of the Tory party. 
I know what I would choose as there would be a level of knowledge and direction,
May is making a total Horlicks of the negotiations so far. Ireland talking about reunification now


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## Slab (Mar 17, 2017)

I guess this could go on either/both political thread/s ...


Iâ€™m actually quite saddened by the conduct, posturing, accusations, intimidation and â€˜threatsâ€™ from all political parties and leaders, towards each other and the general public, around Britain/EU Exit/Scotland/Independence

I find it hard to accept that the best way to govern requires conduct like this and would question if any of them are fit for purpose

They have a mandate to govern, not behave like spoilt children


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## spongebob59 (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wasn't Johanna Cherry QC quite magnificent on QT last night.

Never seen such a silenced QT audience. Or panel come to that.
		
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Until she was asked about the Scottish NHS......


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Until she was asked about the Scottish NHS......
		
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Please explain ?


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## Val (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is no guarantee with either choice.
The three devolved nations have been treated with utter contempt by half of the Tory party. 
I know what I would choose as there would be a level of knowledge and direction,
May is making a total Horlicks of the negotiations so far. Ireland talking about reunification now
		
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I agree there is no guarantee with either but with the later I believe the people of Scotland will have more facts and be able to make a far more informed choice.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wasn't Johanna Cherry QC quite magnificent on QT last night.

Never seen such a silenced QT audience. Or panel come to that.
		
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There was me thinking the ethos of the program was for local politicians/folk of note to address/pass comment on local concerns... So one has to ask wtf was a SNP politician doing in Bognor... About as far away as possible from her patch... Time for a letter to the Beeb methinks...

And, I bet she didn't know when to shut up...


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## Val (Mar 17, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			There was me thinking the ethos of the program was for local politicians/folk of note to address/pass comment on local concerns... So one has to ask wtf was a SNP politician doing in Bognor... About as far away as possible from her patch... Time for a letter to the Beeb methinks...

And, I bet she didn't know when to shut up...
		
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She was ok


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## lobthewedge (Mar 17, 2017)

Val said:



			She was ok
		
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Not magnificent??


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## Val (Mar 17, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			Not magnificent??
		
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No, I don't believe so, she flustered a few times but she did ok.


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## NWJocko (Mar 17, 2017)

Slab said:



			I guess this could go on either/both political thread/s ...


Iâ€™m actually quite saddened by the conduct, posturing, accusations, intimidation and â€˜threatsâ€™ from all political parties and leaders, towards each other and the general public, around Britain/EU Exit/Scotland/Independence

I find it hard to accept that the best way to govern requires conduct like this and would question if any of them are fit for purpose

They have a mandate to govern, not behave like spoilt children
		
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Excellent post and I agree.

The problem is it has spilled over into Social Media, inevitable I guess but since the first Indy ref the spouting out on various platforms of personally held political views (at both extremes typically) has exploded.

Having seen the impact of such behaviour on friendships during the last referendum is probably why I'm so sad it's going to ramp up again now (it has never really stopped from "the 45%, "I was one of the Xm to vote yes" etc groups)

Problem with t'interweb/social media is you tend only to get the extreme views (similar to SiLH's radio show, forget it's name, you're unlikely to get more moderate people phoning up/posting to rant about "being calm, taking everything in and making my decision based on that")......


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## spongebob59 (Mar 17, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			There was me thinking the ethos of the program was for local politicians/folk of note to address/pass comment on local concerns... So one has to ask wtf was a SNP politician doing in Bognor... About as far away as possible from her patch... Time for a letter to the Beeb methinks...
*
And, I bet she didn't know when to shut up.*..
		
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No she didn't, just like the dark haired one the week before, seems to be a trait.


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Its probably all part of the SNP's plan for disinformation. Prior to the Brexit deal being finalised they can portray doom and gloom to the nth degree, and disputing it becomes a, "yes you did, no we didn't" argument.

If the UK manages to arrange a good deal it could sway some of the borderline yes/no's to vote no. But if the vote is before Brexit it will be easier to get a yes.
		
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Above could be true but there is also the issue of nearly 200,000 EU nationals resident on Scotland, most of whom are currently eleigible to vote in an Indyref, who post Brexit may well be ineligible to vote if TMay can wrangle that, depending on what is 'negotiated' with EU meantime, those 200k votes could be critical to a close result, they'd all be going Yes if they think they can retain residency and jobs through Scotland being pro immigration/pro EU, unlike other parts of UK.
Just think timing of any Indyref may have that issue as a factor.

As for what deal the UK negotiates with EU and waiting for that before Indyref, it's 27 v 1, how do people really think we're going to get on? EU is not going to speed up its own demise by offering UK some great deal that all member states will see or else all that will say is what's the point of being an EU member state or in the single market? UK is going to 'negotiate' what the EU offers it, end of.


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## DCB (Mar 17, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			Excellent post and I agree.

The problem is it has spilled over into Social Media, inevitable I guess but since the first Indy ref the spouting out on various platforms of personally held political views (at both extremes typically) has exploded.

Having seen the impact of such behaviour on friendships during the last referendum is probably why I'm so sad it's going to ramp up again now (it has never really stopped from "the 45%, "I was one of the Xm to vote yes" etc groups)

Problem with t'interweb/social media is you tend only to get the extreme views (similar to SiLH's radio show, forget it's name, you're unlikely to get more moderate people phoning up/posting to rant about "being calm, taking everything in and making my decision based on that")......
		
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Unfortunately, I think it will be even worse this time around. I've seem some rather vile stuff already on both sides of the fence and we've not even officially started yet.


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2017)

DCB said:



			Unfortunately, I think it will be even worse this time around. I've seem some rather vile stuff already on both sides of the fence and we've not even officially started yet.
		
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Doubt its any worse than the UK wide 'vile stuff' re Brexit from both sides! 

Social media has good points and bad, at least the spun 'truth' of yesteryear from the top gets properly scrutinised and analysed nowadays and all views get aired. That's democracy, like Speakers Corner on a bigger scale!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Above could be true but there is also the issue of nearly 200,000 EU nationals resident on Scotland, most of whom are currently eleigible to vote in an Indyref, who post Brexit may well be ineligible to vote if TMay can wrangle that, depending on what is 'negotiated' with EU meantime, those 200k votes could be critical to a close result, they'd all be going Yes if they think they can retain residency and jobs through Scotland being pro immigration/pro EU, unlike other parts of UK.
Just think timing of any Indyref may have that issue as a factor.

As for what deal the UK negotiates with EU and waiting for that before Indyref, it's 27 v 1, how do people really think we're going to get on? EU is not going to speed up its own demise by offering UK some great deal that all member states will see or else all that will say is what's the point of being an EU member state or in the single market? UK is going to 'negotiate' what the EU offers it, end of.
		
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Wise words


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2017)

Listening to most thoughts on current EU nationals living in the UK the consensus is that the UK has no intention of bargaining with them other than to make sure UK citizens are treated in the same way. Talks will happen at the very beginning and an agreement should happen very quickly which gives people the same rights they have now, on both sides of the fence. The key question will be when is the cut off date. It may be the date article 50 is invoked, it may be slightly before. Either way it is highly unlikely to be back dated 2 years, that would simply be impractical to enforce. Anyone eligible to vote in an indyref2 now, today, is still likely to be able to vote in two years time if they still live in Scotland.

I have not heard anything from anyone that suggests any different to the above. There will be no kicking out of existing EU nationals in any way as that is in no ones interests.


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## NWJocko (Mar 17, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Doubt its any worse than the UK wide 'vile stuff' re Brexit from both sides! 

Social media has good points and bad, at least the spun 'truth' of yesteryear from the top gets properly scrutinised and analysed nowadays and all views get aired. That's democracy, like Speakers Corner on a bigger scale!
		
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I agree that it's good that things are discussed and scrutinised more closely via 24 hour news (on a variety of media sources) these days.

The flip side is people who feel so strongly about their position they hound people or attempt to make them feel guilty for their choice to the extremes you can observe pretty easily.......

Both sides (in both debates) are guilty.


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## Region3 (Mar 17, 2017)

NWJocko said:



			The flip side is people who feel so strongly about their position they hound people or attempt to make them feel guilty for their choice to the extremes you can observe pretty easily.......
		
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Luckily we don't have any of that on here...


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## drdel (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wasn't Johanna Cherry QC quite magnificent on QT last night.

Never seen such a silenced QT audience. Or panel come to that.
		
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They were aghast that a seemingly intelligent QC could demonstrate such a narrow view of the real would. A world in which 5million people expect to fund a fully operational international machine of goverment when they cant manage their domestic affairs.

I guests if you accept the SNP's 2millions supporters are right then she can do no wrong.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2017)

Is there not a case to say to Nicola Sturgeon that yes she can have her 2nd referendum but it has to be 6 months from now and we will delay triggering Article 50 until the day after that vote. That way the UK government will know if they are negotiating a deal for England, Wales and N. Ireland only or for the whole of the UK. What's the point in trying to negotiate a deal that tries to take into consideration what Scotland wants if they are going to leave the UK anyway. Let them decide whether to stay or leave first and then negotiate the best deal for the UK afterwards.


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## lobthewedge (Mar 17, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is there not a case to say to Nicola Sturgeon that yes she can have her 2nd referendum but it has to be 6 months from now and we will delay triggering Article 50 until the day after that vote. That way the UK government will know if they are negotiating a deal for England, Wales and N. Ireland only or for the whole of the UK. What's the point in trying to negotiate a deal that tries to take into consideration what Scotland wants if they are going to leave the UK anyway. Let them decide whether to stay or leave first and then negotiate the best deal for the UK afterwards.
		
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As a scot, I would sooner see what brexit looks like, live with it for a year or two and see how it's panning out.

If after a few years it's not going so well, then by all means, let's look at other alternatives, one of which may be independance.


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## Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

She doesn't want to wait, she is like Trump, scream & scream until you get your own way. 

Problem middle child &#129300;


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2017)

lobthewedge said:



			As a scot, I would sooner see what brexit looks like, live with it for a year or two and see how it's panning out.

If after a few years it's not going so well, then by all means, let's look at other alternatives, one of which may be independance.
		
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You could be right.
That'll be Indyref3 [The winner] just after the Tories are elected to Westminster with a huge majority.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2017)

Fish said:



			She doesn't want to wait, she is like Trump, scream & scream until you get your own way. 

Problem middle child &#63764;
		
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So true :whoo:


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You could be right.
That'll be Indyref3 [The winner] just after the Tories are elected to Westminster with a huge majority.
		
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Do you think that there will be anything written in to the legislation that allows Indyref2 to go ahead that will say that there won't be a further referendum for X number of years?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you think that there will be anything written in to the legislation that allows Indyref2 to go ahead that will say that there won't be a further referendum for X number of years?
		
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That is up to the people of Scotland to decide.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2017)

Wouldn't the legislation be agreed between the SNP and the Westminster government? How would the Scottish people get a say in the matter?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is up to the people of Scotland to decide.
		
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Not if they vote 'No'


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## IanM (Mar 17, 2017)

So, reading all the narrative......any vote is about who will give the SNP the most cash to subsidise their neo Marxist economic policies....

....shame. It used to be about independence :rofl:


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2017)

Just heard this on Adam Hill's The Last Leg......If they get a yes vote in the next indy ref is it ok to call it a Scotch Eggxit.

Made me chuckle.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

IanM said:



			So, reading all the narrative......any vote is about who will give the SNP the most cash to subsidise their neo Marxist economic policies....

....shame. It used to be about independence :rofl:
		
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Inside your head that may be the case. 
Many others will see it differently.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Inside your head that may be the case. 
Many others will see it differently.
		
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You're right.  It's not Neo-Marxist, it's just Marxist!


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2017)

If it is so important to the Union and the Brexit negotiations why are the citizens of the rest of the UK excluded from the process


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2017)

drdel said:



			If it is so important to the Union and the Brexit negotiations why are the citizens of the rest of the UK excluded from the process
		
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I understand where you're coming from but what happens if 100% of the Scottish electorate votes for independence, approximately 2,000,000 votes, and the rest of the UK votes for the Union to continue, approximately 35,000,000?

Not exactly fair...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

http://www.citylab.com/tech/2016/06...lent-of-threatening-to-move-to-canada/488672/

You are very welcome folks:lol:


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.citylab.com/tech/2016/06...lent-of-threatening-to-move-to-canada/488672/

You are very welcome folks:lol:
		
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Makes a change from you and many others moving south I suppose- if it's fact obviously.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You're right.  It's not Neo-Marxist, it's just Marxist!
		
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:lol:Inside your head that may be the case, others will see it far differently.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.citylab.com/tech/2016/06...lent-of-threatening-to-move-to-canada/488672/

You are very welcome folks:lol:
		
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Really? 

The only country I've not lived in in the U.K. and Ireland is Northern Ireland. Whilst there's some very welcoming people up here, I've experienced more casual racism and downright hard racism here than anywhere else. Coming up as a tourist was fine but coming up and "taking someone's job" has brought out the worst.

And In my previous job as Service Manager I was told by my Senior Engineer what customers not to visit because I was English.

My wife has also experienced it at work, and one customer has been barred and another is on the watchlist.

Last night, after yet another uncomfortable experience for the wife at work, we've decided to see out my contract but not renew it, as my boss has asked for another 5 years.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Really? 

The only country I've not lived in in the U.K. and Ireland is Northern Ireland. Whilst there's some very welcoming people up here, I've experienced more casual racism and downright hard racism here than anywhere else. Coming up as a tourist was fine but coming up and "taking someone's job" has brought out the worst.

And In my previous job as Service Manager I was told by my Senior Engineer what customers not to visit because I was English.

My wife has also experienced it at work, and one customer has been barred and another is on the watchlist.

Last night, after yet another uncomfortable experience for the wife at work, we've decided to see out my contract but not renew it, as my boss has asked for another 5 years.
		
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Disappointed to hear that.

My wee village is known as 'Little England' by some locals. roughly 20% of it's population is English. We all seem to get on really well and most of the 'incomers' are very much involved in all aspects of village/district life.

My wife and two daughters have lived and worked up here for a combined total of 45+ years and not once have they experienced any anti-English abuse. The three of them love Scotland its ways and it's people and have been made to feel very welcome.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

I see George Brown has re-entered the discussion.
His credibility was shot to pieces last time, does he seriously expect folk to take any notice of him and his Vow2.

The No vote seem to be in panic mode before we are even off.
The Silly Billys of extreme group Scotland in Union have decided that insulting 50% of a nation is a good way to win over support.

I wonder who will lead the No group this time......any suggestions?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon, to be fair Brown has the same credibility with the leave campaign as Nicola does with the stay campaign. Both are enemies of the other side.

The good people of Scotland will need to decide who will lead the remain campaign but I would suggest a non politician would be best. Remain need to avoid it becoming a Labour, Conservative, SNP battle because they can't win that. I heard JK Rowling mentioned. Interesting option and may wrong foot the SNP a little.

Who would you say has respect and could do it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Doon, to be fair Brown has the same credibility with the leave campaign as Nicola does with the stay campaign. Both are enemies of the other side.

The good people of Scotland will need to decide who will lead the remain campaign but I would suggest a non politician would be best. Remain need to avoid it becoming a Labour, Conservative, SNP battle because they can't win that. I heard JK Rowling mentioned. Interesting option and may wrong foot the SNP a little.

Who would you say has respect and could do it?
		
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Isn't Jakey a neutral now after Brexit......saw some stuff from her that said it was 'only a matter of time now'.

The lines are now Independence v Unionists. The unionist political parties are in disarray now as both leaders previously had taken a strong Remain stance. Both previously flip flopped on Independence as well. So it will not be either of them.

Looks like it has to be Wee Willie Rennie, David Cockburn or Sam Wanelse
[Before anyone jumps in my spell check has it as Cockburn.:lol:]


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2017)

Will the Unionists in disarray actually make that much difference? Same with the Nationalists? And if it is a political choice, the SNP's don't have a majority in Holyrood.

If it's a decision based on financial viability I feel the SNP's record won't do them any favours. And the oil price isn't something to hang your hat on.

It has to be about Westminster not listening to the Scottish people, even if that is twisting what was a U.K. Vote not a regional one.

I think the SNP have less chance of success this time around. If they waited to see how Brexit went, giving the people an evidence based choice, they could have a shoe in but I feel the timing could seriously backfire.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Will the Unionists in disarray actually make that much difference? Same with the Nationalists? And if it is a political choice, the SNP's don't have a majority in Holyrood.

If it's a decision based on financial viability I feel the SNP's record won't do them any favours. And the oil price isn't something to hang your hat on.

It has to be about Westminster not listening to the Scottish people, even if that is twisting what was a U.K. Vote not a regional one.

I think the SNP have less chance of success this time around. If they waited to see how Brexit went, giving the people an evidence based choice, they could have a shoe in but I feel the timing could seriously backfire.
		
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I think they will squeeze in this time which will be a poor result for Scotland. But, as you say, a shoe in after 2/3 years.
I think the SNP know that and are caught in a bit of a conundrum.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I understand where you're coming from but what happens if 100% of the Scottish electorate votes for independence, approximately 2,000,000 votes, and the rest of the UK votes for the Union to continue, approximately 35,000,000?

Not exactly fair...
		
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Fair to who? So, because I'm English, my vote is not worth as much in this democracy called the UK where I pay proportionately more Tax and, potentially, receive less benefits.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2017)

drdel said:



			Fair to who? So, because I'm English, my vote is not worth as much in this democracy called the UK where I pay proportionately more Tax and, potentially, receive less benefits.
		
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And I'm English too but I feel it would be very unfair for a big majority of Scots to vote out only to be kept in because a greater number of voters in the other countries vote in.

You could even divide the number even further. 2,000,000 million Scots vote out along another 15,000,000 million from the rest of the UK. An overall vote of 17,000,000 million voting out, but overturned by 18,000,000 voting in.

As for whatever tax you pay, what has that got to do with it?


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 18, 2017)

I think the SNP have actually lost the plot on this and the mask has slipped.

It makes no sense whatsoever to have another referendum before brexit has been negotiated and happened. But they don't care about that, they don't care about what's best for Scotland (and even less so the UK), they don't care what the scottish people think (the majority who voted against independence or the majority who don't want another referendum now), all they care about is furthering their nationalist, separatist agenda whatever the cost.

They're even already backtracking on EU membership despite using brexit as the wedge to force another vote that the majority don't want. I resent them twisting my "remain" vote into a supposed mandate for independence, it was anything but that!

A party devoid of principle and integrity, who will say or do anything to manipulate the country to their narrow-minded ends. And don't start me on their green lapdogs who have effectively sacrificed all environmental objectives on the altar of independence.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And I'm English too but I feel it would be very unfair for a big majority of Scots to vote out only to be kept in because a greater number of voters in the other countries vote in.

You could even divide the number even further. 2,000,000 million Scots vote out along another 15,000,000 million from the rest of the UK. An overall vote of 17,000,000 million voting out, but overturned by 18,000,000 voting in.

*As for whatever tax you pay, what has that got to do with it?[/*QUOTE]

Subsidised under the 'Barnet' formula !

Unfortunately the nature of a democracy is that everyone's vote counts the same on the basis that the majority decision is better for whole. As soon as you mess with that principle it is bound to be 'unfair' for some. Does this mean that to be 'fair' members of minority groups get to have a greater value e.g. 2 votes, 3 votes !!

The SNP claim the circumstances have changed, OK that's the case for each UK citizen governed by a Parliament from all regions.

 Scotland can be independent as far as I'm concerned as long as they pay the full cost. The 'real' cost of a defence budget(NATO), consulates, etc. etc. spread across the Scottish businesses and the personal burden on 5mill. - good luck with that.
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

drdel said:



			Fair to who? So, because I'm English, my vote is not worth as much in this democracy called the UK where I pay proportionately more Tax and, potentially, receive less benefits.
		
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WRONG [again]


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			WRONG [again]
		
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Shouting doesn't make it right. Facts do, publish some.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Shouting doesn't make it right. Facts do, publish some.
		
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 Says man who has desperately searched google to disprove what I said.:lol:


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Shouting doesn't make it right. Facts do, publish some.
		
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The wrong is quite simple. For many years Scotland has contributed significantly more tax revenue per head than any other country in the U.K., right up until the price of oil fell through the floor.

Since the demise of oil the shoe has been on the other foot with them getting Â£9bn more than they contribute yet still manage to run up a Â£15bn deficit on top of that. 

Scots have understandably been unhappy in the past about the amount of money that headed south, and are now unhappy at the changes in funding even though they are now getting more back than they contribute.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



 Says man who has desperately searched google to disprove what I said.:lol:
		
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I'm not either proving or disproving it. I just suggested you did. So no Google for me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

I was talking about the here and now.

Tax rates in Scotland v Tax rates in England.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			The wrong is quite simple. For many years Scotland has contributed significantly more tax revenue per head than any other country in the U.K., right up until the price of oil fell through the floor.

Since the demise of oil the shoe has been on the other foot with them getting Â£9bn more than they contribute yet still manage to run up a Â£15bn deficit on top of that. 

Scots have understandably been unhappy in the past about the amount of money that headed south, and are now unhappy at the changes in funding even though they are now getting more back than they contribute.
		
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Your not suggesting that the Doon just might be wrong.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Your not suggesting that the Doon just might be wrong.
		
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I wouldn't dream of it, especially as he'll come back with the duty paid on whisky more than compensates. But he never goes on to tell you it's only Â£3bn...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was talking about the here and now.

Tax rates in Scotland v Tax rates in England.
		
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 Old Skier............How about answering that instead of the usual gum bumping when you know you are WRONG.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Old Skier............How about answering that instead of the usual gum bumping when you know you are WRONG.
		
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Answer what I thought I asked you to provide some facts and as normal when you don't like a question you throw up blue smoke.

If you read the posts you will see that I neither believed or disbelieved you but just ask for something that might give substantiated facts to your post, that doesn't include your Wings blog obviously.

Gum bumping, getting accused of that by you, the forum gum bumper, makes I laugh.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 18, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I understand where you're coming from but what happens if 100% of the Scottish electorate votes for independence, approximately 2,000,000 votes, and the rest of the UK votes for the Union to continue, approximately 35,000,000?

Not exactly fair...
		
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Sorry read this wrong, apologies and edited to delete.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 18, 2017)

BTW everyone banging on about the price of oil. Are we the only country that treats having oil as a negative? It's a bonus, but not what our economy is based upon.

We have hardly made the most of it under the UK rule. We have nothing to show for it, absolutely nothing!


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			BTW everyone banging on about the price of oil. Are we the only country that treats having oil as a negative? It's a bonus, but not what our economy is based upon.

We have hardly made the most of it under the UK rule. We have nothing to show for it, absolutely nothing!
		
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Its not a negative, it just isn't that much of a positive at present. 

In 2012 it generated Â£10,000,000,000 in tax revenue. In 2015 it generated Â£2,100,000,000 and last year it generated Â£24,000,000.

A drop from ten thousand million to twenty four million. Tax revenue has dropped Â£9,976,000,000.

If a country sets its budget spending based on expected taxes and those taxes don't materialise there's an awful lot of borrowing required. As it is/was already allocated for spending, its not a bonus, especially when it doesn't materialise.

BTW, the City of London financial institutions generate Â£65bn in taxes.


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## Sweep (Mar 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I think the SNP have less chance of success this time around. If they waited to see how Brexit went, giving the people an evidence based choice, they could have a shoe in but I feel the timing could seriously backfire.
		
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The SNP's timing on this tells me they actually fear they have been wrong on Brexit all along and that it will be a great success, thereby killing off a great excuse for another referendum.


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## Sweep (Mar 19, 2017)

delc said:



			I wish that was the case in England and the whole UK, where the Tories currently have a monopoly and can do what they like. The EU Parliament is elected by proportional representation, just to avoid this situation. It ensures that policies have to be agreed by consensus.
		
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Citing the Scottish and EU Parliaments as examples of the benefits of PR is not the best argument in its favour IMO


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## spongebob59 (Mar 19, 2017)

http://news.sky.com/story/sturgeon-...und-and-apply-for-full-eu-membership-10807681

Didn't think it was her choice?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

http://wingsoverscotland.com/come-and-join-us/#comments

Classy speech from Nicola at the SNP Conference.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Sweep said:



			The SNP's timing on this tells me they actually fear they have been wrong on Brexit all along and that it will be a great success, thereby killing off a great excuse for another referendum.
		
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Timing is more to do with the Scottish Parliament dates and manifesto pledges.

The scared people are the ones trying to delay it.
2014....27% support.......go ahead by all means.
2017....46% support........oh haud on a moment that's no fair.


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## drdel (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://wingsoverscotland.com/come-and-join-us/#comments

Classy speech from Nicola at the SNP Conference.
		
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Really? - Set low standards and achieve them ! - your economy, education, health etc. are all doing so well while the SNP play politics !


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



http://news.sky.com/story/sturgeon-...und-and-apply-for-full-eu-membership-10807681

Didn't think it was her choice?
		
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It's not. If they want to join then they have to adopt the Euro, no choice. It's in the rules.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Is she going to apply for full EU membership if she wins the referendum?????

Is there a plan if EU membership is not granted by the EU???????


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Is she going to apply for full EU membership if she wins the referendum?????

Is there a plan if EU membership is not granted by the EU???????
		
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Considering the call for Indy 2 is based on the Brexit vote then how could she not apply? Surely they have to.

No. Ha ha. I think you can get associate terms but I'm not sure what that entails. Probably you pay in, accept all the rules but have no say in making them or even being at EU meetings. EU lite you might say.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Is she going to apply for full EU membership if she wins the referendum?????

Is there a plan if EU membership is not granted by the EU???????
		
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I'd be surprised if an SNP led Indy Scotland tried to join the Eu...


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'd be surprised if an SNP led Indy Scotland tried to join the Eu...
		
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You could well be right as there appears to be differing views within the SNP.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

How can that be? The current demand is all because the UK is leaving the EU. To suggest they wouldn't apply staggers me. (I'm not saying you are not correct because I am not hearing opinion up in Scotland, it just seems contradictory to the claimed reason for the vote.)


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How can that be? The current demand is all because the UK is leaving the EU. To suggest they wouldn't apply staggers me. (I'm not saying you are not correct because I am not hearing opinion up in Scotland, it just seems contradictory to the claimed reason for the vote.)
		
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The vote is more to do with SNP mantra rather than Brexit which is good enough reason for them to wait.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2017)

I think the key phrase from the SNP is access to the single market. Whether this is achieved as a full member of the EU or in some other way is yet to be determined.


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## Raesy92 (Mar 19, 2017)

She wants access to the single market, not necessarily joining the EU.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			She wants access to the single market, not necessarily joining the EU.
		
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Not something she is making very clear to those living in Scotland.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How can that be? The current demand is all because the UK is leaving the EU. To suggest they wouldn't apply staggers me. (I'm not saying you are not correct because I am not hearing opinion up in Scotland, it just seems contradictory to the claimed reason for the vote.)
		
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Brexit is just a pretext for another indyref.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Thanks for the explanation. Similar to the Norway model then.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			She wants access to the single market, not necessarily joining the EU.
		
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If that is the case and the UK government manages to negotiate access to the single market as part of the Brexit talks does that mean the SNP will drop their call for a second referendum?

Initially Sturgeons statements were all about Scotland being taken out of the EU against their will. Now she's changed that to wanting access to the single market and not necessarily joining the EU. It almost as though she's making it up as she goes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not something she is making very clear to those living in Scotland.
		
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How do you know that ?


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How do you know that ?
		
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I can only go by news clips and interviews, I've not been invited around for tea yet.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			If that is the case and the UK government manages to negotiate access to the single market as part of the Brexit talks does that mean the SNP will drop their call for a second referendum?

Initially Sturgeons statements were all about Scotland being taken out of the EU against their will. Now she's changed that to wanting access to the single market and not necessarily joining the EU. It almost as though she's making it up as she goes.
		
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No, she is just trying her best to avoid the obvious disaster that a UK Brexit would mean for Scotland.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, she is just trying her best to avoid the obvious disaster that a UK Brexit would mean for Scotland.
		
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By wanting to leave the huge single market that her country currently enjoys


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I can only go by news clips and interviews, I've not been invited around for tea yet.
		
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......as seen in deepest Devon.:lol:


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			......as seen in deepest Devon.:lol:
		
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We have running water, electricity and TV and stopped wearing skirts a few hundred years ago.

I didn't realize she gave personal interviews for your blog.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			By wanting to leave the huge single market that her country currently enjoys 

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Are England going to ban an independent Scotland from trading them. naw:lol:


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are England going to ban an independent Scotland from trading them. naw:lol:
		
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No but we may decide on a hard Scotch Eggsit and apply trade tariffs and restrictions on free movement and Â£60 Billion exit fees and no guarantee of residency for Scott Nationalists and so on.   Surely we wpuld want to punish them for leaving us, that's the way it's done apparently.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

The journey from No to Yes
http://wingsoverscotland.com/to-keep-links-with-the-world/


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are England going to ban an independent Scotland from trading them. naw:lol:
		
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If Scotland goes independent and joins the EU, so no longer independent ironically, then they will trade with the UK under the same terms as the rest of the EU nations. Countries are not allowed independent trade deals so if tariffs exist between the EU and the UK then they will exist between Scotland and the UK.

You need to stop referring to England. The UK is a combination of countries. I know that suits the story but it is inaccurate and misleading.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No but we may decide on a hard Scotch Eggsit and apply trade tariffs and restrictions on free movement and Â£60 Billion exit fees and no guarantee of residency for Scott Nationalists and so on.   Surely we wpuld want to punish them for leaving us, that's the way it's done apparently.
		
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You are just being silly now, not like you to have a smart answer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If Scotland goes independent and joins the EU, so no longer independent ironically, then they will trade with the UK under the same terms as the rest of the EU nations. Countries are not allowed independent trade deals so if tariffs exist between the EU and the UK then they will exist between Scotland and the UK.

You need to stop referring to England. The UK is a combination of countries. I know that suits the story but it is inaccurate and misleading.
		
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The UK is two countries, once Scotland leaves England will be the only country left.


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## Sweep (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Timing is more to do with the Scottish Parliament dates and manifesto pledges.

The scared people are the ones trying to delay it.
2014....27% support.......go ahead by all means.
2017....46% support........oh haud on a moment that's no fair.
		
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46%? So a minority then?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Bit harsh on Wales and N.Ireland. Not sure they will approve of your comments &#128513;


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK is two countries, once Scotland leaves England will be the only country left.
		
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On the Buckies are we. Absolute rot.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bit harsh on Wales and N.Ireland. Not sure they will approve of your comments &#128513;
		
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The Scots hate Wales more than England apparently...
Though you wouldn't guess it from 'wings' ...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

I'm presuming you are trying to be cute, Wales being a principality for example. I give them a bit more respect. There are four countries in the UK and if one of them leaves then there will be three. The UK will carry on nicely.


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## Sweep (Mar 19, 2017)

Isn't all this a Sturgeon fantasy? I know the A50 thread has taken some stick but at least that is actually happening. As far as I am aware indyref2 isn't.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Isn't all this a Sturgeon fantasy? I know the A50 thread has taken some stick but at least that is actually happening. As far as I am aware indyref2 isn't.
		
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Good point.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Passes the time though &#128513;


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## User62651 (Mar 19, 2017)

it is a good point, lets all leave this thread until Wednesday when the Holyrood vote is done and dusted, see how that goes first. This thread has followed the other political threads into an accusatory sniping contest...."you hate..., no I don't, yes you do" pantomime as usual to the point of most of us dropping out of any reasonable debate.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Unless the SNP are spiteful to the Greens Wednesday is just a formality isn't it?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*You are just being silly now*, not like you to have a smart answer.

Click to expand...


Well, you started it!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bit harsh on Wales and N.Ireland. Not sure they will approve of your comments &#128513;
		
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Principality..........like Monaco
Region................like Catalonia

Not countries I'm afraid.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			The Scots hate Wales more than England apparently...
Though you wouldn't guess it from 'wings' ...
		
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Steady on, My mother is Welsh.
Always the best six nations event........we have one thing in common:lol:


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## JT77 (Mar 19, 2017)

Northern Ireland isn't a region, it's  a province or statelet.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Always the best six nations event........we have one thing in common:lol:
		
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Huge chip on your shoulders?&#128514;


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

JT77 said:



			Northern Ireland isn't a region, it's  a province or statelet.
		
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Of course it is...basic error.....sorry.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Huge chip on your shoulders?&#128514;
		
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No.......lets just have a great game of open rugby and sod the result.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Principality..........like Monaco
Region................like Catalonia

Not countries I'm afraid.
		
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I don't know if your on a wind up or just lacking in social awareness. I'm Welsh and I can assure you that it is a country.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unless the SNP are spiteful to the Greens Wednesday is just a formality isn't it?
		
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Looks like we don't even need the independence supporting Greens for this one.....59 votes swings it.

Beats combined Labour and Tory vote


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I don't know if your on a wind up or just lacking in social awareness. I'm Welsh and I can assure you that it is a country.
		
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It is a Principality.
Prince of Wales is a clue.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a Principality.
Prince of Wales is a clue.
		
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You really are clueless. Back to you blog.

Wales was a principality, once upon a time. But that was in 1542. 472 years agoâ€¦ 472 years.
Wales is a country. A nation. We have our own laws. We have a Government, a legislature.
But what, pray tell, _is_ a "principality"?
The Oxford English Dictionary describes a principality as being: "The territory held or governed by a prince."
Now some may offer the Prince of Wales up as an answer to the issue at hand, but that would be wholly inappropriate, since Charles holds no constitutional responsibility over our homeland. His designation is granted by the Queen, and is an entirely traditional title.
No, Wales is a country (472 years-worth of _country-dom_, remember!).
In fact, in 2008 the Welsh Government issued a statement on this very issue: 
"Wales is not a principality. Although we are joined with England by land, and we are part of Great Britain, Wales is a country in its own right."


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## Sweep (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unless the SNP are spiteful to the Greens Wednesday is just a formality isn't it?
		
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But even if Holyrood votes for a referendum, Mrs May has said no, so it's still not happening is it?


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2017)

What is actually wrong with having another referendum? It is only about asking a nation a question. Timing? Not great.... but not great for who?

Crack on, let's do it.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What is actually wrong with having another referendum? It is only about asking a nation a question. Timing? Not great.... but not great for who?

Crack on, let's do it.
		
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Are we just going to have one every two years until the nats get their way? Enough!


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What is actually wrong with having another referendum? It is only about asking a nation a question. Timing? Not great.... but not great for who?

Crack on, let's do it.
		
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And when do they stop.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			And when do they stop.
		
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surely that's for them to decide


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			surely that's for them to decide
		
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Whos them, the people have already decided.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			surely that's for them to decide
		
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Why? All the polls recently have shown that less than 50% of those asked want another referendum. Why do the SNP get to go against the wishes of the majority. I could understand it if they were getting results showing that 60%+ were in favour of another referendum but that's just not the case.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2017)

Hobbit, if the Scots want to have another referendum that is up to them. They end up paying for them so it is up them if that is where they want to spend their money. The issue on timing for me is that if Scotland goes for independence then clearly there needs to be some very complicated separation talks. Problem there being the UK experts in this will be dealing with the EU on that little separation. They can't be in two places at once. We need to finish that job before moving to the next one.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Whos them, the people have already decided.
		
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You tell me, you said they.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2017)

The question of how people in our office would vote came up last week. A mix of warehouse staff, office staff, technicians and management work there, with a third of them from elsewhere in Scotland.

17 to 00 in favour of staying in the U.K. 

Although one one spoke of self determination, all voted no based on economics. Must admit I was surprised.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You tell me, you said they.
		
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I wish I could remember.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hobbit, if the Scots want to have another referendum that is up to them. They end up paying for them so it is up them if that is where they want to spend their money. The issue on timing for me is that if Scotland goes for independence then clearly there needs to be some very complicated separation talks. Problem there being the UK experts in this will be dealing with the EU on that little separation. They can't be in two places at once. We need to finish that job before moving to the next one.
		
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No sensible posts please!


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## IanM (Mar 20, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Are we just going to have one every two years until the nats get their way? Enough!
		
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That's the way they usually operate.  E.g.  Rather like the Japanese soldier they found years after, the BBC are still fighting the Referendum Campaign


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why? All the polls recently have shown that less than 50% of those asked want another referendum. Why do the SNP get to go against the wishes of the majority. I could understand it if they were getting results showing that 60%+ were in favour of another referendum but that's just not the case.
		
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The SNP would rather wait until they polled in the 60's, probably 2/3 years.
Problem for Scotland is that if the wrong half the Tory party, UKIP and the other extreme right parties get their way, by then Scotland will probably be a post Brexit wasteland.


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## Old Skier (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP would rather wait until they polled in the 60's, probably 2/3 years.
Problem for Scotland is that if the wrong half the Tory party, UKIP and the other extreme right parties get their way, by then Scotland will probably be a post Brexit wasteland.
		
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Luckily the extreme right don't tend to survive in the UK and I doubt if they will surface this time.  Its the extreme left that Scotland has to worry about as they are already driving the country further and further into debt.

In the end it comes down to an individual persons perception of extreme.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

That useful idiot Tim Farron keeps saying that the LiebDems are the only UK Party fighting a hard Brexit.

WRONG 
Nice but Tim, are you deluded, out of touch or both.


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2017)

In or out of the Union it's only a few years before the SNP will have to raise income tax and council tax to punitive levels. 

I'm gobsmacked that the electorate can't see what is just around the corner. A Â£15bn deficit across not many people is a Â£5000 a year increase for the working population of Scotland, or Â£4600 if pensioners are taxed.

The SNP buying popularity and votes. An incompetent party leading Scotland down a very rocky divisive road.


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			In or out of the Union it's only a few years before the SNP will have to raise income tax and council tax to punitive levels. 

I'm gobsmacked that the electorate can't see what is just around the corner. A Â£15bn deficit across not many people is a Â£5000 a year increase for the working population of Scotland, or Â£4600 if pensioners are taxed.

The SNP buying popularity and votes. An incompetent party leading Scotland down a very rocky divisive road.
		
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I agree, even with raised corporation tax and Vat; Scotland is in the proverbial mire. Add in the additional cost of being a sovereign state and the sums just don't add up.

The SNP are seemingly blind to the obvious. However it has always been a good ploy of politics that you create and 'external enemy' to keep the voters from concentrating on the problems at home. England/Westminster has been a convenient 'enemy'.


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## delc (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That useful idiot Tim Farron keeps saying that the LiebDems are the only UK Party fighting a hard Brexit.

WRONG 
Nice but Tim, are you deluded, out of touch or both.
		
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They are the only English Party fighting Brexit or a hard Brexit, unless you include the Greens who are a very small minority party. People have accused them of jumping on the Remain bandwagon, but the Lib-Dems have always been pro EU and are sticking to their guns (Unlike the Labour Party!),  Agree that the SNP in Scotland are also anti Brexit.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			They are the only English Party fighting Brexit or a hard Brexit, unless you include the Greens who are a very small minority party. People have accused them of jumping on the Remain bandwagon, but the Lib-Dems have always been pro EU and are sticking to their guns (Unlike the Labour Party!),  Agree that the SNP in Scotland are also anti Brexit.
		
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The LibDems can't be trusted to stick to their word... Tuition fees should be all I need say... Don't pin your hopes on them...

And, Nick Clegg's reason for wishing to derail Art50 was because one person told him they voted exit in the hope it would impact on house prices so they might stand a better chance of affording one... Knob!


Oh, and I thought they were a nationwide party not just for the English...


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## jp5 (Mar 20, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			The LibDems can't be trusted to stick to their word... Tuition fees should be all I need say... Don't pin your hopes on them...
		
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Is that really any different to any other party? Just look at what the Tories tried to do at last week's budget!



MegaSteve said:



			And, Nick Clegg's reason for wishing to derail Art50 was because one person told him they voted exit in the hope it would impact on house prices so they might stand a better chance of affording one... Knob!
		
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Pretty sure that wasn't Clegg's primary reason.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

I see former BNP leader Nick Griffiths is emigrating.
Apparently England has shifted too far to the right for his liking.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 20, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Is that really any different to any other party? Just look at what the Tories tried to do at last week's budget!
		
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The LibDems try and sell themselves as the party of the people... Yet, come up short every time when it matters...






			Pretty sure that wasn't Clegg's primary reason.
		
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Probably not, but it was the one he gave when asked by Marr...


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## delc (Mar 20, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			The LibDems try and sell themselves as the party of the people... Yet, come up short every time when it matters...


Probably not, but it was the one he gave when asked by Marr...
		
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Apart from the tuition fees thing, which was probably forced on them by the Tories as the majority party, the Liberals or Lib-Dems have a pretty good record in coalition governments. They normally manage to oppose the more loony left-wing or right-wing ideas and keep them on an even track. Due to the sad demise of the Labour Party they could become an effective opposition to the Tories, or even form the next Government if Brexit goes really badly (as I expect it will)!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			Apart from the tuition fees thing, which was probably forced on them by the Tories as the majority party, the Liberals or Lib-Dems have a pretty good record in coalition governments. They normally manage to oppose the more loony left-wing or right-wing ideas and keep them on an even track. Due to the sad demise of the Labour Party they could become an effective opposition to the Tories, or even form the next Government if Brexit goes really badly (as I expect it will)!
		
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One slight problem being, amongst the next generation of voters will be the very people they dumped on [BIG TIME] with the tuition fees... And, blaming their failure, [to keep their word] on the bad boy tories won't really cut it...


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## delc (Mar 20, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			One slight problem being, amongst the next generation of voters will be the very people they dumped on [BIG TIME] with the tuition fees... And, blaming their failure, [to keep their word] on the bad boy tories won't really cut it...
		
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When I went to Uni in the late 1960's probably less than 10% of the population did so, and so tuition and maintenance fees were reasonably affordable. Now that we send almost 50% of our young people to University, often to do useless degrees, and to keep them off the unemployment register for 3 years, they are not. However the joke is that graduates are now two-a-penny, so many of them will never earn enough to pay the loans back! &#128580;


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			The LibDems can't be trusted to stick to their word... Tuition fees should be all I need say..
		
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I was always a libdems man, always thought they had values and spoken sense with a lot of their policies. 

However I would never again after that, they sold their soul to have their few minutes of joint minority power.(btw I was not young at that time, but it was just plain wrong)

I don't really understand this whole Scottish/English/welsh etc thing. I have always viewed myself as British but never European tbh which is probably why, be a very sad day if Scotland ended up breaking away, very sad..


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			When I went to Uni in the late 1960's probably less than 10% of the population did so, and so tuition and maintenance fees were reasonably affordable. Now that we send almost 50% of our young people to University, often to do useless degrees, and to keep them off the unemployment register for 3 years, they are not. However the joke is that graduates are now two-a-penny, so many of them will never earn enough to pay the loans back! &#63044;
		
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Do you realise how bad that reads ?

I had a 'free' degree as well, and feel embarrassed to say that. 

I suppose now you are older that you also expect a brilliant NHS and public services and high state pension but the youngers can retire later than you and have worse than you had. Whoops off I go to put my dummy back in


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## delc (Mar 20, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Do you realise how bad that reads ?

I had a 'free' degree as well, and feel embarrassed to say that. 

I suppose now you are older that you also expect a brilliant NHS and public services and high state pension but the youngers can retire later than you and have worse than you had. Whoops off I go to put my dummy back in

Click to expand...

I do feel very bad for young people today, because both the two major political parties have run the country down to an almost third world status , and made things pretty difficult for them. However older folk are also suffering from cutbacks in the NHS and Social Care, after a lifetime of paying taxes and National Insurance to pay for them (in theory).


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 20, 2017)

The Lib dems drew a line in the sand and then happily jumped over it. They paid for that with virtual annihilation. It will take a very long time for that betrayal to be forgotten.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Do you realise how bad that reads ?

I had a 'free' degree as well, and feel embarrassed to say that. 

I suppose now you are older that you also expect a brilliant NHS and public services and high state pension but the youngers can retire later than you and have worse than you had. Whoops off I go to put my dummy back in

Click to expand...

I worked from the age of 15 to 65....50 years total.
Graduates now start work at about 22-24 years old so, under my rules, they should be working until they are 72-74. 
Youngster are not really retiring later if you retain the status quo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2017)

What a fun week last week was to have spent in Scotland 

When BT supporting newspapers last time round - the Herald and the Scotsman (perhaps that should be *even* the Scotsman) - are expressing issues and concerns in respect of May's approach to dealing with wee Nicola's statement of intent of a week ago and her attitude towards Holyrood and the FM.  Something is afoot.


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			I do feel very bad for young people today, because both the two major political parties have run the country down to an almost third world status , and made things pretty difficult for them. However older folk are also suffering from cutbacks in the NHS and Social Care, after a lifetime of paying taxes and National Insurance to pay for them (in theory).
		
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I think you are mistaken by your 'lifetime of paying taxes and National Insurance to pay for them', if you consider how much the country was and is now in debt, the real truth is that you have not paid in enough, as there is a massive country debt and even bigger unfunded future liabilities. Perhaps time to look at the complete picture rather than what you believe is the case.


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I worked from the age of 15 to 65....50 years total.
Graduates now start work at about 22-24 years old so, under my rules, they should be working until they are 72-74. 
Youngster are not really retiring later if you retain the status quo.
		
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Of course there are people who worked like you from 15 to 65, but not knowing you are what you done or if you work out of choice and so on. You have to look more generally as for everyone like that you have also to think of the people that were retired off early fifties, after working a relatively low stress 9-5 job, who had a low mortgage when compared to the 25 years term) job for their life. Maybe that was living in the south, but 

Also in a lot of cases the wifes did not work(I say loosely, not wishing to upset housewife or even househusbands), unlike the youngests of today were both partners work full time.

And I can say looking at the people who I know around 70 and that's the ones that are alive, generally working full time would not be easy. Health is a wonderful thing and I would have thought you would understand that the difference between 60 to 65, is a world apart from the difference between 70 to 75..

Anyone I wish you the best, as I still work and have another 25 years to go.:mmm::rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2017)

Only 18 pages of stuff to read and digest since my last post here on the 16th - so much busier than the Art50 thread - I wonder why...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			I do feel very bad for young people today, because both the two major political parties have run the country down to an almost third world status , and made things pretty difficult for them. However older folk are also suffering from cutbacks in the NHS and Social Care, after a lifetime of paying taxes and National Insurance to pay for them (in theory).
		
Click to expand...

Do you know what a third world country looks like?  I'll tell you what, it doesn't look like the UK.  Also, if the country has been run down to third world levels then why are half a million + trying to get in every year, surely if that was correct they would be keeping away.   You really are a bit dim at times.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Of course there are people who worked like you from 15 to 65, but not knowing you are what you done or if you work out of choice and so on. You have to look more generally as for everyone like that you have also to think of the people that were retired off early fifties, after working a relatively low stress 9-5 job, who had a low mortgage when compared to the 25 years term) job for their life. Maybe that was living in the south, but 

Also in a lot of cases the wifes did not work(I say loosely, not wishing to upset housewife or even househusbands), unlike the youngests of today were both partners work full time.

And I can say looking at the people who I know around 70 and that's the ones that are alive, generally working full time would not be easy. Health is a wonderful thing and I would have thought you would understand that the difference between 60 to 65, is a world apart from the difference between 70 to 75..

Anyone I wish you the best, as I still work and have another 25 years to go.:mmm::rofl:
		
Click to expand...

It was never easy.  My wife stopped work for 17 years when we had a family but I needed to work 60/70 hours a week to keep the wolf from the door, seven day weeks were the norm.    Please don't think it was an easy life back in the 60s/70s/80/s or buying a house easy.  No one I knew went to University and it was unusual to own a car before your mid twenties and then it tended to be an old cronk.    One thing that many young people can look forward to is inheriting a sizeable amount when the folks pass on, again something not many of my generation enjoyed.   I dont want to sound like I accuse the young of having it easy but it never was.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			Of course there are people who worked like you from 15 to 65, but not knowing you are what you done or if you work out of choice and so on. You have to look more generally as for everyone like that you have also to think of the people that were retired off early fifties, after working a relatively low stress 9-5 job, who had a low mortgage when compared to the 25 years term) job for their life. Maybe that was living in the south, but 

Also in a lot of cases the wifes did not work(I say loosely, not wishing to upset housewife or even househusbands), unlike the youngests of today were both partners work full time.

And I can say looking at the people who I know around 70 and that's the ones that are alive, generally working full time would not be easy. Health is a wonderful thing and I would have thought you would understand that the difference between 60 to 65, is a world apart from the difference between 70 to 75..

Anyone I wish you the best, as I still work and have another 25 years to go.:mmm::rofl:
		
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Stress is not a new word, miners, farmers, shipbuilders etc suffered a lot. 
Stress is having to support a family when you are unemployed like Yosser Hughes and there are 4 million unemployed in the UK
Low mortgage, Shhhhurely you must be joking.


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## IanM (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Low mortgage, Shhhhurely you must be joking.

Click to expand...

...well, my first one in the late 80s was charged at about 14%  Currently I'm paying under 1.75%"

So, in 1988 a 50k mortgage at 14% charged 7k a year interest only
 Now a 250000k mortgage at 1.75% charges Â£4375 a year interest only

Stats eh???

Got a Moody's report on post leaving UK potential Scotland on my desk this morning.   I hope its as inaccurate as the Brexit ones!


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			It was never easy.  My wife stopped work for 17 years when we had a family but I needed to work 60/70 hours a week to keep the wolf from the door, seven day weeks were the norm.    Please don't think it was an easy life back in the 60s/70s/80/s or buying a house easy.  No one I knew went to University and it was unusual to own a car before your mid twenties and then it tended to be an old cronk.    One thing that many young people can look forward to is inheriting a sizeable amount when the folks pass on, again something not many of my generation enjoyed.   I dont want to sound like I accuse the young of having it easy but it never was.
		
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Their inheritance may not be much since anyone with over Â£23k will have to pay for any care home costs at Â£500 p month!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			I think you are mistaken by your 'lifetime of paying taxes and National Insurance to pay for them', if you consider how much the country was and is now in debt, the real truth is that you have not paid in enough, as there is a massive country debt and even bigger unfunded future liabilities. Perhaps time to look at the complete picture rather than what you believe is the case.
		
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The national debt back in the 1950s/1960s was still carried forward from WW2 and the cost that had on the nation.  During the 1970s/1980s and up to around 2008 it was fairly under control and then Gordon appeared on the scene, government spending on welfare then went through the roof and since no Government has the wherewithal to get it back under control without being accused of stealing bread out of the mouths of the poor.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

drdel said:



			Their inheritance may not be much since anyone with over Â£23k will have to pay for any care home costs at Â£500 p month!
		
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That wont apply to everyone though and I believe those costs will be cut down or removed soon


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The national debt back in the 1950s/1960s was still carried forward from WW2 and the cost that had on the nation.  During the 1970s/1980s and up to around 2008 it was fairly under control and then Gordon appeared on the scene, government spending on welfare then went through the roof and since no Government has the wherewithal to get it back under control without being accused of stealing bread out of the mouths of the poor.
		
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Perhaps you could include the actual figures and unfunded liabilities (such as future care. NHS and pensions) in your figures, as this is relevant to whether you have paid in enough in your generation.

Why you are looking just thinking 70/80s are relevant or even just blaming one person, just to say the whole nation has spent the money or incurred the debt for the future unfunded liabilities, not just Gordon.

Anyway enjoy golf, knew there was a reason I don't post on these kind of threads, so all the best.:thup:


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## User62651 (Mar 20, 2017)

See May's doing the rounds into the Celtic territories outwith her comfort zone of London/the home counties, bit late imo, should have done this sooner after taking on PM job and not just photo ops or little speeches to the converted in controlled environments. She might get a hard time but she should get out on the street, get in touch with everydays Joe's and gauge real opinion, keeps talking about better deals for everyone through her economic policies but imo needs to get into homes of everyday folks and try to garner the common touch better instead of 'us and them' approach. That's what's missing from political leadership imo.


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## Leftie (Mar 20, 2017)

drdel said:



			Their inheritance may not be much since anyone with over Â£23k will have to pay for any care home costs at Â£500 p month!
		
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Â£500 per month   I will have to move nearer you.

It's nearly 10x that around here.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			See May's doing the rounds into the Celtic territories outwith her comfort zone of London/the home counties, bit late imo, should have done this sooner after taking on PM job and not just photo ops or little speeches to the converted in controlled environments. She might get a hard time but she should get out on the street, get in touch with everydays Joe's and gauge real opinion, keeps talking about better deals for everyone through her economic policies but imo needs to get into homes of everyday folks and try to garner the common touch better instead of 'us and them' approach. That's what's missing from political leadership imo.
		
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:blah::blah: talks about our precious Union.........then she arrogantly ignores Scotland and does sod all to save her precious Union.
Not so precious to you is it, my dear.


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## delc (Mar 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you know what a third world country looks like?  I'll tell you what, it doesn't look like the UK.  Also, if the country has been run down to third world levels then *why are half a million + trying to get in every year,* surely if that was correct they would be keeping away.   You really are a bit dim at times.
		
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Probably because it's still better than living in Syria, Iraq, and other war torn countries, or Eastern Europe!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			Probably because it's still better than living in Syria, Iraq, and other war torn countries, or Eastern Europe!
		
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Sorry, I didnt understand that Syria and Iraq were sending all those immigrants here. I thought a big bunch of them came from the EU.  Are Eastern European Countries like Poland third world countries,  Have you ever been to Poland?   Dim as a Tock H Lamp!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

Scottish government learns of the Brexit date from the BBC.

That's us telt then, sod the 'precious' union.


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## delc (Mar 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry, I didnt understand that Syria and Iraq were sending all those immigrants here. I thought a big bunch of them came from the EU.  Are Eastern European Countries like Poland third world countries,  Have you ever been to Poland?   Dim as a Tock H Lamp!
		
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Poland is doing OK, but countries like Romania a bit less well. We can in theory keep migrants from outside the EU out, but our Government hasn't been very good at enforcing this!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish government learns of the Brexit date from the BBC.

That's us telt then, sod the 'precious' union.
		
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Come on Doon.  There is no way TM could have informed wee Nicola in advance as TM is making it up as she goes along.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			See May's doing the rounds into the Celtic territories outwith her comfort zone of London/the home counties, bit late imo, should have done this sooner after taking on PM job and not just photo ops or little speeches to the converted in controlled environments. She might get a hard time but she should get out on the street, get in touch with everydays Joe's and gauge real opinion, keeps talking about better deals for everyone through her economic policies but imo needs to get into homes of everyday folks and try to garner the common touch better instead of 'us and them' approach. That's what's missing from political leadership imo.
		
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She did visit them last year actually.  The job of prime minister is quite demanding and leaves little time to call in on us all.   I am sure she has a rough idea what Ikea furniture, big screen TVs and Staffies look like already.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			Poland is doing OK, but countries like Romania a bit less well. We can in theory keep migrants from outside the EU out, but our Government hasn't been very good at enforcing this!
		
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But if we have a third world country like you informed us then surely would go somewhere else or stay at home as it's no better here. Any chance you might take back the third world comment?

I think not


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## Val (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish government learns of the Brexit date from the BBC.

That's us telt then, sod the 'precious' union.
		
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Do you really believe that? Seriously


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish government learns of the Brexit date from the BBC.

That's us telt then, sod the 'precious' union.
		
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What's wrong with that? I also learned it from the BBC and I voted for the government which is more than Nicola did.
But maybe I am more up to speed on current affairs than she is. Hasn't everyone known for weeks A50 was to be triggered on March 29?
Anyway, why are you getting so upset? You don't want the Union anyway. Or is it more of the same cake and eat it nonsense from the Nats?


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Come on Doon.  There is no way TM could have informed wee Nicola in advance as TM is making it up as she goes along.
		
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Hahaha. And the SNP isn't?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

Val said:



			Do you really believe that? Seriously
		
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It is what the Scottish Brexit minister said .........so yes I do believe it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish government learns of the Brexit date from the BBC.

That's us telt then, sod the 'precious' union.
		
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What bit of the end of March doesn't Jimmy understand   We were all told that many moons ago.


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## User62651 (Mar 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			She did visit them last year actually.  The job of prime minister is quite demanding and leaves little time to call in on us all.  * I am sure she has a rough idea what Ikea furniture, big screen TVs and Staffies look like already.*

Click to expand...

That made me chuckle, ta


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Hahaha. And the SNP isn't?
		
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They're not actually.  They are manipulating and scheming it with their weasel words and kipper faces.


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see former BNP leader Nick Griffiths is emigrating.
Apparently England has shifted too far to the right for his liking.

Click to expand...

Hopefully he will bog off to Scotland and become one of the hundreds of thousands of immigrants you will get when you join the EU (like that is going to happen).


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			When I went to Uni in the late 1960's probably less than 10% of the population did so, and so tuition and maintenance fees were reasonably affordable. Now that we send almost 50% of our young people to University, often to do useless degrees, and to keep them off the unemployment register for 3 years, they are not. However the joke is that graduates are now two-a-penny, so many of them will never earn enough to pay the loans back! &#63044;
		
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And yet only a couple of weeks ago you were using the same statistic to show how the younger who voted to remain were better educated.


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			Apart from the tuition fees thing, which was probably forced on them by the Tories as the majority party, the Liberals or Lib-Dems have a pretty good record in coalition governments. They normally manage to oppose the more loony left-wing or right-wing ideas and keep them on an even track. Due to the sad demise of the Labour Party they could become an effective opposition to the Tories, or even form the next Government if Brexit goes really badly (as I expect it will)!
		
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I don't disagree that they did an ok job under difficult circumstances in coalition 2010 -2015 but you can hardly say they have a good record in coalition otherwise. You have to go back to the early 1970s for the last one and no coalition apart from the most recent has lasted more than a year.


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			I do feel very bad for young people today, because both the two major political parties have run the country down to an almost third world status , and made things pretty difficult for them. However older folk are also suffering from cutbacks in the NHS and Social Care, after a lifetime of paying taxes and National Insurance to pay for them (in theory).
		
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Almost third world?
Shameful comment. What bubble do you live in?
Do you just turn over when the charity ads are run on Sky? When was the last time a woman in your family walked miles for water?
Try being thankful instead of trying to score nonsensical political points.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			They're not actually.  They are manipulating and scheming it with their weasel words and kipper faces.
		
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What's a _kipper face_?


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only 18 pages of stuff to read and digest since my last post here on the 16th - so much busier than the Art50 thread - I wonder why...
		
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The A50 thread has almost died since you have been away. I wonder why?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What's a _kipper face_?
		
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How many faces does a kipper have


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			I do feel very bad for young people today, because both the two major political parties have run the country down to an almost third world status , and made things pretty difficult for them. However older folk are also suffering from cutbacks in the NHS and Social Care, after a lifetime of paying taxes and National Insurance to pay for them (in theory).
		
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Child number 1. One of the UK's leading barristers.
Child number 2. Technical director with a international sciences company.
Child number 3. A national operations manager for a bank.
Child number 4. Dept Manager for a international chain store.
Child number 5. Golf pro.
Child number 6. Teacher.

All achieved with hard work and commitment. All have paid off their student loans.

I see the quality of your posts, like your recent Facebook diatribe about "stupid thick northerners" certainly shows how thick and stupid you really are.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

Is Sweep on Speed or has he had a row with Sooty

5 posts out of  8 wow.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			How many faces does a kipper have 

Click to expand...

If it's a UKIPper - only only one.  And it has a very confused and squinty-eyed look to it.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 20, 2017)

drdel said:



			Their inheritance may not be much since anyone with over Â£23k will have to pay for any *care home costs at Â£500 p month!*

Click to expand...

Please tell me where that one is?



Leftie said:



			Â£500 per month   I will have to move nearer you.

It's nearly 10x that around here.
		
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Is the correct answer, he says from bitter experience.



SocketRocket said:



			That wont apply to everyone though and I believe those costs will be cut down or removed soon
		
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Sorry, but I think you couldn't be further wrong.  They will try to apply it to as many as possible rather than removing the charges.


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## lobthewedge (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is Sweep on Speed or has he had a row with Sooty

5 posts out of  8 wow.
		
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If it serves to dilute and distract from the pish you write, then more power to him!


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## delc (Mar 20, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Child number 1. One of the UK's leading barristers.
Child number 2. Technical director with a international sciences company.
Child number 3. A national operations manager for a bank.
Child number 4. Dept Manager for a international chain store.
Child number 5. Golf pro.
Child number 6. Teacher.

All achieved with hard work and commitment. All have paid off their student loans.

I see the quality of your posts, like your recent Facebook diatribe about "stupid thick northerners" certainly shows how thick and stupid you really are.
		
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Well done to your kids, although I expect they are the exception rather than the rule. If you want to hear some really thick, stupid and poorly educated people, just take a listen to some of the Brexiters who phone into the Nigel Farage show on LBC radio!


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## Sweep (Mar 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is Sweep on Speed or has he had a row with Sooty

5 posts out of  8 wow.
		
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A children's favourite on drugs? How very dare you?
Its that Soo. She winds me up!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2017)

Sweep said:



			A children's favourite on drugs? How very dare you?
Its that Soo. She winds me up!
		
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And now breathe.....1.......2..........3.............4.


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## Beezerk (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			Well done to your kids, although I expect they are the exception rather than the rule. If you want to hear some really thick, stupid and poorly educated people, just take a listen to some of the Brexiters who phone into the Nigel Farage show on LBC radio!
		
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And the people who tune in.


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## Old Skier (Mar 20, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			And the people who tune in.
		
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It appears the majority are remainers.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

delc said:



			Well done to your kids, although I expect they are the exception rather than the rule. If you want to hear some really thick, stupid and poorly educated people, just take a listen to some of the Brexiters who phone into the Nigel Farage show on LBC radio!
		
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He doesn't need to, he already explained how thick and stupid you really are.  You are reinforcing his comment by your crass posts.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry, but I think you couldn't be further wrong.  They will try to apply it to as many as possible rather than removing the charges.
		
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  You are of course entitled to that opinion.   Time will tell though.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 20, 2017)

Thread has deteriorated yet again into childish insults
it stops now please. 

An infraction has been issued, more will follow unless people grow up


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2017)

Denmark.......One of the happiest countries to live in and now totally debt free.
Norway...running along the same lines.

It is amazing what you can do if you are a small well run independent country that is friendly with the rest of the world.


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Denmark.......One of the happiest countries to live in and now totally debt free.
Norway...running along the same lines.

It is amazing what you can do if you are a small well run independent country that is friendly with the rest of the world.
		
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And yet you don't want this for the UK, only for Scotland?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2017)

If you are going to follow those two then be prepared for some serious tax increases across the board.


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## Sweep (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Denmark.......One of the happiest countries to live in and now totally debt free.
Norway...running along the same lines.

It is amazing what you can do if you are a small well run independent country that is friendly with the rest of the world.
		
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After that statement, can you just nip over to the A50 thread and eat some humble pie please? Thanks.
BTW I deal with Norway. Since the oil price dropped they have been skint.
And you might want to consider that "well run" bit. Going off current and past performance I am not really sure you can expect that from the SNP.


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## Val (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Denmark.......One of the happiest countries to live in and now totally debt free.
Norway...running along the same lines.

It is amazing what you can do if you are a small well run independent country that is friendly with the rest of the world.
		
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Well if we do vote for independence here's hoping we elect a government that run us well


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			And yet you don't want this for the UK, only for Scotland?
		
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I doubt if England would ever follow Scottish values. Wales might. 
NI will probably unify with Ireland so have similar values.


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## Beezerk (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt if England would ever follow Scottish values. Wales might.
		
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Insular post of the decade, brilliant.


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## Sweep (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt if England would ever follow Scottish values. Wales might. 
NI will probably unify with Ireland so have similar values.
		
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Caaan'5t type fort lauughhing


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt if England would ever follow Scottish values. Wales might. 
NI will probably unify with Ireland so have similar values.
		
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What are Scottish value?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt if England would ever follow Scottish values. Wales might. 
NI will probably unify with Ireland so have similar values.
		
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Back to the Racist insults again.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What are Scottish value?
		
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Where is the popcorn emoji? This should be a fun one :clap:


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## Val (Mar 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt if England would ever follow Scottish values. Wales might. 
NI will probably unify with Ireland so have similar values.
		
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate on what you mean here? Are you talking politically and if so could you expand on it because this phrase is lost on most here.

As to Ireland unifying, thats as likely as Westminster rolling over and letting the SNP rub it's belly.


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2017)

In this case I'm sure that 'values' refers to a left of centre political view vs a right of centre political view. Nothing to do with race.

This thread is getting very silly ........ again.:mmm:


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## Val (Mar 21, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			In this case I'm sure that 'values' refers to a left of centre political view vs a right of centre political view. Nothing to do with race.
		
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If that is the case then it's wrong, Scotland and England have shared political views particularly at the ballot box when Tony Blair and his party came to power and remained for 13 years. Unfortunately the people of Scotland and England no longer share that parties views any more, it could easily change but unlikely in the short term.

I believe the Labour party under Blair was as neutral as a party has ever been, neither left nor right of centre.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Back to the Racist insults again.
		
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eh?  Methinks you read too much between the lines.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			In this case I'm sure that 'values' refers to a left of centre political view vs a right of centre political view. Nothing to do with race.
		
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You may be correct. It would have been less confrontational to have framed it that way though, if that is the meaning.   This person has a track record of posting anti-English comments.


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You may be correct. It would have been less confrontational to have framed it that way though, if that is the meaning.   This person has a track record of posting anti-English comments.
		
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There are comments going in both directions that can be read as anti Scottish/English. Winding each other up might be fun for a bit but it goes too far and ends up a bit tedious for the rest of us. People laughing (via emoji) at their own naff racial stereotyping 'jokes' being the worst element imo.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

Back from a day on the course and what do we find, the troll Doon on another anti British wind up.


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## DCB (Mar 21, 2017)

I see the " Sandal Munchers " are doing their bit ........   wonder what they've been promised for the amendment they have put forward.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Back from a day on the course and what do we find, the troll Doon on another anti British wind up.
		
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Its amazing how often he's that clumsy, or deliberate, and then wonders why some Scots are perceived as casually racist.


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2017)

Think I'm understanding it correctly so I expect that amendment was something SNP would've included anyway in due course, not a surprise to me that 16/17 year olds and EU citizens resident here would vote in any future Indyref, happended in the last one. If you're old enough to fight and die in the armed services you're old enough to vote imo. Water under bridge but if 16/17 year olds had voted in EU ref the result would have been closer given voting demographics. Greens believe in something akin to the SNP's position, why is that so bad, the 3 other parties of note are sticking together on their side for this vote tomorrow despite having little in common on any other topics, that's a stitch up of sorts too is it not? Labour getting into bed with Tories before is part of the reason their support has crashed. 
Patrick Harvie usually speaks quite a lot of sense imo, and no I'm not a rabid cybernat!


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

The armed forces are badly undermanned but 16/17 year olds are not old enough to fight and die. Things have changed (a long time ago).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			There are comments going in both directions that can be read as anti Scottish/English. Winding each other up might be fun for a bit but it goes too far and ends up a bit tedious for the rest of us. People laughing (via emoji) at their own naff racial stereotyping 'jokes' being the worst element imo.
		
Click to expand...

Many Scots believe that they have a more socially conscious focus on society than the English.  And it is not just Scots who live in Scotland who believe this.  I have also heard it said by Scots who live in England, or who have lived in England and have moved back to Scotland.  

Many do believe that there are significant cultural and social differences between Scots and English - and this is one thing that the SNP play strongly on.  A prevalent thinking is that _The English are not like us - they care more for the individual, me, myself, I, than their fellows and wider society_ 

I am not saying that these Scots are correct in this belief, but that they believe it to be the case.

This does not make comments to that effect racist in any way.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Many Scots believe that they have a more socially conscious focus on society than the English.  And it is not just Scots who live in Scotland who believe this.  I have also heard it said by Scots who live in England, or who have lived in England and have moved back to Scotland.  

Many do believe that there are significant cultural and social differences between Scots and English - and this is one thing that the SNP play strongly on.  A prevalent thinking is that _The English are not like us - they care more for the individual, me, myself, I, than their fellows and wider society_ 

I am not saying that these Scots are correct in this belief, but that they believe it to be the case.

This does not make comments to that effect racist in any way.
		
Click to expand...

Thats too much of a generalisation. I find many Aberdonians who've chased the oil dollar to be just as self centred as some of those south of the border. I found some Glaswegians to be quite callous, but some Edinburghers to be quite refined. Many of the rural areas in England are very friendly but some the city centres not so.

Unfortunately, it appears "many Scots" seem to stereotype...


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Many Scots believe that they have a more socially conscious focus on society than the English.  And it is not just Scots who live in Scotland who believe this.  I have also heard it said by Scots who live in England, or who have lived in England and have moved back to Scotland.  

Many do believe that there are significant cultural and social differences between Scots and English - and this is one thing that the SNP play strongly on.  A prevalent thinking is that _The English are not like us - they care more for the individual, me, myself, I, than their fellows and wider society_ 

I am not saying that these Scots are correct in this belief, but that they believe it to be the case.

This does not make comments to that effect racist in any way.
		
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This is you stouping to an all time low. Not only is it crase and boarding on racist it also shows your complete contempt for the people of England and the U.K. The English along with the rest of the U.K. which includes Scotland prove time and again with their fund raising efforts and the largest single contributor to international aid shows exactly the opposite to all you have posted above.

Your continued trolling and racist attitude of the English shows just how bad a loser you are.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			This is you stouping to an all time low. Not only is it crase and boarding on racist it also shows your complete contempt for the people of England and the U.K. The English along with the rest of the U.K. which includes Scotland prove time and again with their fund raising efforts and the largest single contributor to international aid shows exactly the opposite to all you have posted above.

Your continued trolling and racist attitude of the English shows just how bad a loser you are.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's just as bad to continually throw the racist accusation at SILH - that's just poor and just sums up this thread and the Art50 thread. 

There is nothing racist in what SILH said at all - nothing 

I wonder how old you All actually are because despite you all actually being the elder statesman of the forum you are currently acting like the youngest - every single political thread is being ruined , there is zero chance of any sensible debate because none of you have the maturity to just ignore each other and accept that you are on polar opposites of everything - your responses to SILH are just as much trolling as what he posts.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Many Scots believe that they have a more socially conscious focus on society than the English.  And it is not just Scots who live in Scotland who believe this.  I have also heard it said by Scots who live in England, or who have lived in England and have moved back to Scotland.  

Many do believe that there are significant cultural and social differences between Scots and English - and this is one thing that the SNP play strongly on.  A prevalent thinking is that _The English are not like us - they care more for the individual, me, myself, I, than their fellows and wider society_ 

I am not saying that these Scots are correct in this belief, but that they believe it to be the case.

This does not make comments to that effect racist in any way.
		
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This talk of Scots having different social values is just rose tinted glasses talk, Pollyanna if you like.  What is English anymore, we have been so diluted as a race over the last twenty years that it's difficult to classify the race as this or that.  Scotland has the same issue but as a smaller country and not affected by immigration as the levels seen in many parts of England so can still hold on to a small degree of National identity.   Suggesting that English are somehow uncaring and selfish (and that's what you are really saying) is just closet racism.  If someone was to suggest that the Muslim community was somehow less socially coherent or the Polish community only thought about themselves then the Yogurt Knitters would be out in full cry marching down Whitehall with their banners.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think it's just as bad to continually throw the racist accusation at SILH - that's just poor and just sums up this thread and the Art50 thread. 

There is nothing racist in what SILH said at all - nothing 

I wonder how old you All actually are because despite you all actually being the elder statesman of the forum you are currently acting like the youngest - every single political thread is being ruined , there is zero chance of any sensible debate because none of you have the maturity to just ignore each other and accept that you are on polar opposites of everything - your responses to SILH are just as much trolling as what he posts.
		
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You are of course intittled to your opinion on my post as I am entitled to my opinion of his.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Thats too much of a generalisation. I find many Aberdonians who've chased the oil dollar to be just as self centred as some of those south of the border. I found some Glaswegians to be quite callous, but some Edinburghers to be quite refined. Many of the rural areas in England are very friendly but some the city centres not so.

Unfortunately, it appears "many Scots" seem to stereotype...
		
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I agree 100% with you.  It is a believe many Scots hold - and it is an incorrect stereotype of _the English_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			This is you stouping to an all time low. Not only is it crase and boarding on racist it also shows your complete contempt for the people of England and the U.K. The English along with the rest of the U.K. which includes Scotland prove time and again with their fund raising efforts and the largest single contributor to international aid shows exactly the opposite to all you have posted above.

Your continued trolling and racist attitude of the English shows just how bad a loser you are.
		
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Sorry - but I am just stating something that I have heard expressed by many Scots over many years - a belief that is exploited by the SNP - that the Scots care more about others than the English. I am not saying it is true or that I hold to it. But many Scots do believe it, you have to understand that if you care to try and understand Scottish Nationalism and one of the key drivers behind the wish for independence that many Scots have.

And btw - I don't know how I can 'trolling' when I don't actually know what the word means.  So if I am doing it - whatever it is - I don't know that I am.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			This talk of Scots having different social values is just rose tinted glasses talk, Pollyanna if you like.  What is English anymore, we have been so diluted as a race over the last twenty years that it's difficult to classify the race as this or that.  Scotland has the same issue but as a smaller country and not affected by immigration as the levels seen in many parts of England so can still hold on to a small degree of National identity.   *Suggesting that English are somehow uncaring and selfish* (and that's what you are really saying) is just closet racism.  If someone was to suggest that the Muslim community was somehow less socially coherent or the Polish community only thought about themselves then the Yogurt Knitters would be out in full cry marching down Whitehall with their banners.
		
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I did not suggest *this * at all - though the conclusion of your point is actually that a lot of Scots are racist.  However this view is not so much because of what Scots think of the English - but perhaps more that the have an elevated sense of their own social conscience.  And I am not sure why that is racist rather than simply deluded.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			You are of course intittled to your opinion on my post as I am entitled to my opinion of his.
		
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Look - in case you didn't actually get what I posted.  I tried to highlight a view that many Scots have of themselves relative to the English.  And as mentioned already this view is probably more of an elevated sense of their own social conscience (how real that actually is very debatable) rather than a derogatory view of the English.

This view that the Scots hold of themselves relative to the English may or may not be true, and I may well not subscribe to it - but it is a view that the SNP exploits,


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2017)

Shamelessly stolen from Facebook but it made me chuckle..........

Is it just me .... or does Nicola Sturgeon's mother look like she's going to belt out 'Candle in the wind'........


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Shamelessly stolen from Facebook but it made me chuckle..........

Is it just me .... or does Nicola Sturgeon's mother look like she's going to belt out 'Candle in the wind'........


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Fair comment


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## MarkE (Mar 21, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Shamelessly stolen from Facebook but it made me chuckle..........

Is it just me .... or does Nicola Sturgeon's mother look like she's going to belt out 'Candle in the wind'........


View attachment 22291

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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Shamelessly stolen from Facebook but it made me chuckle..........

Is it just me .... or does Nicola Sturgeon's mother look like she's going to belt out 'Candle in the wind'........


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:rofl:

I'm just waiting for the first photoshop of Elton John and Jimmy Krankie together


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look - in case you didn't actually get what I posted.  I tried to highlight a view that many Scots have of themselves relative to the English.  And as mentioned already this view is probably more of an elevated sense of their own social conscience (how real that actually is very debatable) rather than a derogatory view of the English.

This view that the Scots hold of themselves relative to the English may or may not be true, and I may well not subscribe to it - but it is a view that the SNP exploits,
		
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Is this really the case? Too much of a generalisation, I don't sense that at all, after all more than half of Scotland hates the SNP with a passion and prefers it's UK position. .


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This view that the Scots hold of themselves relative to the English may or may not be true, and I may well not subscribe to it -
		
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Perhaps you could come clean and say whether you do or don't subscribe to it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2017)

And so Sturgeon wins Holyrood support to call for IndyRef2 by 69 votes to 59 - a majority when the SNP don't have a majority in the parliament.  And before that lack of SNP majority in parliament is cited, yet again, as being a demonstration of SNP having no authority to call for this vote - remember that t*he Scottish Parliament electoral system was devised to make any one party getting a majority an almost impossibility. * That the SNP have in the past had a majority was a complete freak result - it really shouldn't have happened.  Not having a majority is not an SNP failure as some try and paint it.  No Majority is by design.

And so to today - where the SNP have depended upon a coalition with the Green Party to win the vote - and coalition politics is how parliamentary decision making in the Scottish Parliament is *designed* to work.


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## drdel (Mar 28, 2017)

Interesting that the Greens support the SNP which puts great emphasis on and relies upon Fossil fuel revenue contribution.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so Sturgeon wins Holyrood support to call for IndyRef2 by 69 votes to 59 - a majority when the SNP don't have a majority in the parliament.  And before that lack of SNP majority in parliament is cited, yet again, as being a demonstration of SNP having no authority to call for this vote - remember that t*he Scottish Parliament electoral system was devised to make any one party getting a majority an almost impossibility. * That the SNP have in the past had a majority was a complete freak result - it really shouldn't have happened.  Not having a majority is not an SNP failure as some try and paint it.  No Majority is by design.

And so to today - where the SNP have depended upon a coalition with the Green Party to win the vote - and coalition politics is how parliamentary decision making in the Scottish Parliament is *designed* to work.
		
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That's correct.


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## DCB (Mar 28, 2017)

Harvey would sell his mother if it gave him more clout in Holyrood &#128521;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That's correct.
		
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...designed by the Donald Dewar (a great man) to thwart the ambitions of the SNP.  Pity Labour collapsed and The Greens decided that they fancied the idea of independence.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 28, 2017)

So Nicola Sturgeon has said that she will "take steps" if Westminster doesn't go along with the vote in the Scottish Parliament for a second referendum. What "steps" are open to her and what can she realistically do to force the issue if Westminster say there will be no referendum until after March 2019 when Brexit negotiations have been completed?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 28, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			So Nicola Sturgeon has said that she will "take steps" if Westminster doesn't go along with the vote in the Scottish Parliament for a second referendum. What "steps" are open to her and what can she realistically do to force the issue if Westminster say there will be no referendum until after March 2019 when Brexit negotiations have been completed?
		
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There is no steps she can't take - she will just stamp her little feet and make little speeches that the majority of the UK will just ignore 

Think it's extremely poor of her and the SNP to be looking to force another independence vote on the country of Scotland so soon after the recent one. They had their answer then and it's still the same generation, it's not a "vote until you get the answer you want"


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## Imurg (Mar 28, 2017)

Is there anything in Law to prevent Scotland having a referendum..?
I know Westminster has to agree to it for it to be a binding vote but could they just go ahead and have one anyway..?

I'd like to ask Scots a genuine question.
Brexit is happening. How can you vote on whether you want to be part of the UK( and therefore out of the EU) or not when you have no idea what life will be like post-Brexit...?

I've nothing against another independence&#8203; vote but the timing is irresponsible.
I suspect voting to leave the UK will be pretty final...Don't you want to know what you're voting to leave?


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## ger147 (Mar 28, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Is there anything in Law to prevent Scotland having a referendum..?
I know Westminster has to agree to it for it to be a binding vote but could they just go ahead and have one anyway..?

I'd like to ask Scots a genuine question.
Brexit is happening. How can you vote on whether you want to be part of the UK( and therefore out of the EU) or not when you have no idea what life will be like post-Brexit...?

I've nothing against another independence&#8203; vote but the timing is irresponsible.
I suspect voting to leave the UK will be pretty final...Don't you want to know what you're voting to leave?
		
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No, there is nothing to stop the SNP having another referendum, but as you state, without the OK from Westminster it won't be legally binding.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 28, 2017)

Rock paper scissors in Scotland then. Very poor from Sturgeon and there needs to be a far better understanding of what Brexit means once we are out and that will take time. This is just using Brexit as a way of steam rollering her own political ends and go against what was voted for not so long ago


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## USER1999 (Mar 28, 2017)

If there is another indy ref vote, right in the middle of the brexit negotiations, then so be it. If it is to be independence then it should be under wto regulations until such time as there is spare civil service capacity to negotiate terms. Any other way, and it is just trying to muddy the waters, and cause confusion at a difficult time.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2017)

The Scottish First Minister is a very manipulative and devious person. She is not alone in her party either.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 28, 2017)

The last referendum cost around Â£13m, payable by the Scottish gov't. If Nicola wants to spend that again, more allowing for inflation, just for PR purposes then that would be a pretty criminal waste of money. She needs the UK govt to approve it whether she likes it or not. I'm sure they will do after Brexit, just not before it has been completed.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2017)

Jabba the hut salmond too.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 28, 2017)

drdel said:



			Interesting that the Greens support the SNP which puts great emphasis on and relies upon Fossil fuel revenue contribution.
		
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The greens have betrayed their voters by sacrificing environmental concerns on the altar of nationalism and gone against their manifesto by backing a referendum that the majority of Scots don't want. Shameless.


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## Val (Mar 28, 2017)

Bottom line, those who voted Brexit throughout the UK created this, a perfect storm brewed for the SNP and they grabbed a golden opportunity with both hands. The only way we would see another independence referendum was a material change in circumstances and we got it. I know many nationalists who's chain of thought in the EU referendum was vote remain as we might trigger another independence referendum.

We have it, the PM should grant it and we should see what happens.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 28, 2017)

Val said:



			Bottom line, those who voted Brexit throughout the UK created this, a perfect storm brewed for the SNP and they grabbed a golden opportunity with both hands. The only way we would see another independence referendum was a material change in circumstances and we got it. I know many nationalists who's chain of thought in the EU referendum was vote remain as we might trigger another independence referendum.

We have it, the PM should grant it and we should see what happens.
		
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Absolutely agree, but with the proviso that the second referendum should be delayed until at least the end of 2019 or the start of 2020 so that the government can focus on the demands of the Brexit negotiations and a decision can be reached on that before campaigning for the Indy ref can start. Personally I don't think that the government should be distracted from Brexit negotiations by the possibility of Scottish independence. I assume that negotiations for Scotland becoming independent would take at least as long as those for the UK leaving the EU, what with sorting out debts and laws etc, so what difference does it make if it gets delayed by 6 months while Brexit is finalised?


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## Raesy92 (Mar 28, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no steps she can't take - she will just stamp her little feet and make little speeches that the majority of the UK will just ignore 

Think it's extremely poor of her and the SNP to be looking to force another independence vote on the country of Scotland so soon after the recent one. They had their answer then and it's still the same generation, it's not a "vote until you get the answer you want"
		
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I really don't get this "vote until you get what you want" line that keeps getting branded about. If nothing material had changed, and there was to be another vote then the answer would have been the same. 

So voting until you get what you want only works, if the thing people want has changed. There has clearly been a material change (something that was included in the SNP manifesto so it's hardly a surprise), the details of Brexit would be known prior to the vote. If the Scottish people want to stay part of the UK post-brexit they will vote in favour of remaining. If not they will vote for independence. This should be the peoples democratic right.


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## larmen (Mar 28, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely agree, but with the proviso that the second referendum should be delayed until at least the end of 2019 or the start of 2020 so that the government can focus on the demands of the Brexit negotiations and a decision can be reached on that before campaigning for the Indy ref can start.
		
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Personally I think the Scottish should have a referendum because 'they were duped' into staying by the promise of the EU.

But I think you are right, it should be after Brexit. After all, they should know what exactly they are leaving, and nobody knows that until it is finalised.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2017)

larmen said:



			Personally I think the Scottish should have a referendum *because 'they were duped' into staying by the promise of the EU.*

But I think you are right, it should be after Brexit. After all, they should know what exactly they are leaving, and nobody knows that until it is finalised.
		
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I keep hearing this but is it correct?   Can you show me the actual quote where this was promised by the Government.


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## BrizoH71 (Mar 29, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep hearing this but is it correct?   Can you show me the actual quote where this was promised by the Government.
		
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It was a declaration, made many times by the Better Together campaign throughout Indyref. Such as https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584 .. David Cameron hinted at the same more than once. But he gambled on the result and lost, and here we are.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2017)

Scotland needs to open its eyes: the SNP is conning it's citizens

If, for a moment, we assume that a vote to leave the Union is the result in 2019+; what then? The UK will have repealed EU regs. borders will have been modified, trade controls will be different and we may have new relations with other nations.

How exactly does the SNP think it can then fund more change and unravel revised regulations etc. when its economy is probably in a worse state than it already is. OK I forgot the SNP thinks the EU will come rushing in with open arms and an open wallet - that's after its sorted Greece, Italy, Spain and the hassle with Turkey and the immigration control deal !


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## JT77 (Mar 29, 2017)

Surely the best thing for the Scottish people is to wait until after the Brexit negotiations are complete, look at the picture form both sides and make an informed decision on which path would be better to follow, if that means independence, then see about calling for a ref, if it means remaining part of the UK, even as a short term solution to establish the pro/cons of the departure from the EU, then they still have the option to ask for another ref.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 29, 2017)

JT77 said:



			Surely the best thing for the Scottish people is to wait until after the Brexit negotiations are complete, look at the picture form both sides and make an informed decision on which path would be better to follow, if that means independence, then see about calling for a ref, if it means remaining part of the UK, even as a short term solution to establish the pro/cons of the departure from the EU, then they still have the option to ask for another ref.
		
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It's not the Scottish people asking for the referendum- the polls still show the country doesn't want it 

SNP headed by Jimmy Krankie are the ones pushing for it - they clearly are taking no notice of the people of Scotland


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## User62651 (Mar 29, 2017)

drdel said:



			Scotland needs to open its eyes: the SNP is conning it's citizens

If, for a moment, we assume that a vote to leave the Union is the result in 2019+; what then? The UK will have repealed EU regs. borders will have been modified, trade controls will be different and we may have new relations with other nations.

How exactly does the SNP think it can then fund more change and unravel revised regulations etc. when its economy is probably in a worse state than it already is. OK I forgot the SNP thinks the EU will come rushing in with open arms and an open wallet - that's after its sorted Greece, Italy, Spain and the hassle with Turkey and the immigration control deal !
		
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With respect you're giving us the Daily Mail view of things, there are plenty of economists who would argue contrary to your statement. Scotlands voters are just as astute/unastute as anywhere else in the UK, we are fully aware of what the SNP are up to, they are no more or less trusted than any other political organisation, no-one is being conned.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely agree, but with the proviso that the second referendum should be delayed until at least the end of 2019 or the start of 2020 so that the government can focus on the demands of the Brexit negotiations and a decision can be reached on that before campaigning for the Indy ref can start. Personally I don't think that the government should be distracted from Brexit negotiations by the possibility of Scottish independence. I assume that negotiations for Scotland becoming independent would take at least as long as those for the UK leaving the EU, what with sorting out debts and laws etc, *so what difference does it make if it gets delayed by 6 months while Brexit is finalised?*

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The difference is simply that an IndyRef2 whilst UK is still in the EU is held in a very different economic and political context from one held after the UK has left.  

Besides.  Sturgeon did not, I believe, want to call for IndyRef2 now - because she knows the YES situation is precarious - but the circumstances of Brexit forced her hand.  I suspect she is OK with May delaying her granting of IndyRef2 for some time.  Any benefits accruing from leaving the EU will not, IMO, have manifested themselves in the timescales of a post-Brexit IndyRef2 - whilst I suspect that some of the problems will - especially if we end up with a _No Deal_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not the Scottish people asking for the referendum- the polls still show the country doesn't want it 

SNP headed by Jimmy Krankie are the ones pushing for it - they clearly are taking no notice of the people of Scotland
		
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She is pushing for it because politically she has to be seen to be pushing for it - I am fairly convinced she does not wish her request to be granted for some time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			With respect you're giving us the Daily Mail view of things, there are plenty of economists who would argue contrary to your statement. Scotlands voters are just as astute/unastute as anywhere else in the UK, we are fully aware of what the SNP are up to, they are no more or less trusted than any other political organisation, no-one is being conned.
		
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And I'll add - the Scottish electorate are now well-versed in the key arguments, and therefore will ask the hard questions and expect answers.  Team Pro-Indy know the factors that made them fall short last time and so best have good answers.  And they know that they have to have an economic case that cannot hide behind the chimera of oil revenue being a nice-to-have.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The difference is simply that an IndyRef2 whilst UK is still in the EU is held in a very different economic and political context from one held after the UK has left.  

Besides. * Sturgeon did not, I believe, want to call for IndyRef2 no*w - because she knows the YES situation is precarious - but the circumstances of Brexit forced her hand.  I suspect she is OK with May delaying her granting of IndyRef2 for some time.  Any benefits accruing from leaving the EU will not, IMO, have manifested themselves in the timescales of a post-Brexit IndyRef2 - whilst I suspect that some of the problems will - especially if we end up with a _No Deal_

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Re the bit I've bolded, I think she was absolutely gagging for it immediately after the June Brexit result but has become far more coy about it since. 

Is she playing a canny game of really sorry or is she terrified of the financial meltdown that might occur if Indey2 is successful?

I wonder how much of a divorce settlement the rest of the UK will demand off Scotland, aka the EU demand for â‚¬60billion from the UK?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Re the bit I've bolded, I think she was absolutely gagging for it immediately after the June Brexit result but has become far more coy about it since. 

Is she playing a canny game of really sorry or is she terrified of the financial meltdown that might occur if Indey2 is successful?

*I wonder how much of a divorce settlement the rest of the UK will demand off Scotland, aka the EU demand for â‚¬60billion from the UK?*

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Possibly - but think her stance is more political expediency

And on the *bold *bit - This would surely depend upon how much Scotland had committed and signed-up to to provide to England over the period following a Scottish secession from the UK. But hold on.  The Scottish Parliament doesn't send money to Westminster - it gets it's funding via the Barnett formula *from* Westminster.  So nothing to be paid to Westminster.

In fact the question might then actually be - what will the UK have pay Scotland if Scotland votes to leave the UK due to Westminster signing up to funding commitments to Scotland under the Barnett formula.  Now that would be fun...


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			With respect you're giving us the Daily Mail view of things, there are plenty of economists who would argue contrary to your statement. Scotlands voters are just as astute/unastute as anywhere else in the UK, we are fully aware of what the SNP are up to, they are no more or less trusted than any other political organisation, no-one is being conned.
		
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Sorry to disappoint but I don't read the Daily Mail. If you are challenging the nation's ability to fund more change that's fine but I've not seen evidence that Scotland's economy has positive projections, (and I happen to be an economist)  Didn't say the Scots were all misguided - clearly since the SNP are steering the nation it's convinced/conned the necessary number!


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2017)

drdel said:



			clearly since the SNP are steering the nation it's convinced/conned the necessary number!
		
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Is the right answer!


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## User62651 (Mar 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Is the right answer!
		
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No, it's an opinion.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			No, it's an opinion.
		
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Do you believe the SNP's financial model is good for the country?


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## Val (Mar 29, 2017)

The IFS have a very good projection of the current state of the Scottish economy inc it's debt level and GDP%. I don't believe this to be Daily Mail propaganda and I don't believe it to be manipulated. They have no reason to...............so

How does Scotland move away from a projected Â£10.6bn of debt and a GDP of 9.4% by the year end 2016-2017 (as of 26/03/16)

The IFS also suggests that in the event of a split and by some miracle Scotlands takes on none of the UK debt it is still projected to have a deficit of 7.6% of income as apposed to the current 9.4%

So, an Independent Scotland requires spending cuts and tax rises just to try to return to a break even balance sheet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2017)

Val said:



			The IFS have a very good projection of the current state of the Scottish economy inc it's debt level and GDP%. I don't believe this to be Daily Mail propaganda and I don't believe it to be manipulated. They have no reason to...............so

How does Scotland move away from a projected Â£10.6bn of debt and a GDP of 9.4% by the year end 2016-2017 (as of 26/03/16)

The IFS also suggests that in the event of a split and by some miracle Scotlands takes on none of the UK debt it is still projected to have a deficit of 7.6% of income as apposed to the current 9.4%

*So, an Independent Scotland requires spending cuts and tax rises just to try to return to a break even balance sheet.*

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...as the economy of the rUK goes down the plug-hole and austerity measures tighten - with those who can least afford it paying the highest price for the Brexit stupidity.

All good isn't it.


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## Val (Mar 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...as the economy of the rUK goes down the plug-hole and austerity measures tighten - with those who can least afford it paying the highest price for the Brexit stupidity.

All good isn't it.
		
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Stupid yes but it's happening


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## User62651 (Mar 29, 2017)

Val said:



			The IFS have a very good projection of the current state of the Scottish economy inc it's debt level and GDP%. I don't believe this to be Daily Mail propaganda and I don't believe it to be manipulated. They have no reason to...............so

How does Scotland move away from a projected Â£10.6bn of debt and a GDP of 9.4% by the year end 2016-2017 (as of 26/03/16)

The IFS also suggests that in the event of a split and by some miracle Scotlands takes on none of the UK debt it is still projected to have a deficit of 7.6% of income as apposed to the current 9.4%

So, an Independent Scotland requires spending cuts and* tax rises* just to try to return to a break even balance sheet.
		
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It's a psychological thing, tax is a dirty word here and the high earners and corporations are able to dodge paying a lot of it. Higher taxes works very well for Denmark, Norway, Finland etc who all seem to score highest in quality of life and happiness scores. Denmark as a little northern European nation is debt free now, UK is trillions in debt. Scotland would have to have tax rises, some would consider it worth it others wouldn't.


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## Val (Mar 29, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			It's a psychological thing, tax is a dirty word here and the high earners and corporations are able to dodge paying a lot of it. Higher taxes works very well for Denmark, Norway, Finland etc who all seem to score highest in quality of life and happiness scores. Denmark as a little northern European nation is debt free now, UK is trillions in debt. *Scotland would have to have tax rises, some would consider it worth it others wouldn't.*

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So how do you get the low earners, benefit busters and free loaders in the most deprived areas who are desperate for independence paying more tax? Lots of these people have been born into deprivation, they know no other means of life and have no interest in getting a job and bettering themselves. I live in one of those areas and believe me it's not pretty.

Sounds very scathing that paragraph but it's the reality in many parts of Lanarkshire, Ayrshire, Glasgow and many other parts of Scotland it's every day life


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2017)

Val said:



			So how do you get the low earners, benefit busters and free loaders in the most deprived areas who are desperate for independence paying more tax? Lots of these people have been born into deprivation, they know no other means of life and have no interest in getting a job and bettering themselves. I live in one of those areas and believe me it's not pretty.

Sounds very scathing that paragraph but it's the reality in many parts of Lanarkshire, Ayrshire, Glasgow and many other parts of Scotland it's every day life
		
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Well put val and the same could be said for large swathes of Wales. But believe Scotland otlnd has a Bit more uk brass spent on it than Wales per head which is convieniantly forgotten by some.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2017)

Val said:



			So how do you get the low earners, benefit busters and free loaders in the most deprived areas who are desperate for independence paying more tax? Lots of these people have been born into deprivation, they know no other means of life and have no interest in getting a job and bettering themselves. I live in one of those areas and believe me it's not pretty.

Sounds very scathing that paragraph but it's the reality in many parts of Lanarkshire, Ayrshire, Glasgow and many other parts of Scotland it's every day life
		
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...and elsewhere

But I will add that my sister is the carer for her disabled husband.  They get a total of Â£94/week from the state - plus their little one bed house and a contribution towards their council tax.  And out of their Â£13.43 a day they have to live and pay all their bills.  The welfare state is good to have - but it isn't that good - and not actually much of a scroungers paradise for many.  And so when food and other costs start to go up due to Brexit - they have to find the additional cost out of their fixed Â£13.43 a day.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2017)

For some that are working now. Costs have gone up. Missis t has just told me she has a 1% pay rise to look forward to. Smart, inflation is at 2.5%.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2017)

What's quite neat with my sister and hubby is that they live in Arran.  And how much is the ferry to the mainland - Â£7 each return.  So their Â£13.43 isn't even enough to get them to the mainland for a cheaper shop in the Ardrossan Asda.  Austerity...bring it on - but are we all really in it together?


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## Val (Mar 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What's quite neat with my sister and hubby is that they live in Arran.  And how much is the ferry to the mainland - Â£7 each return.  So their Â£13.43 isn't even enough to get them to the mainland for a cheaper shop in the Ardrossan Asda.  Austerity...bring it on - but are we all really in it together?
		
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I don't believe for 1 minute they live on Â£94 for the 2 of them, to be honest I'd be surprised if it's as low as Â£94 each


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and elsewhere

But I will add that my sister is the carer for her disabled husband.  They get a total of Â£94/week from the state - plus their little one bed house and a contribution towards their council tax.  And out of their Â£13.43 a day they have to live and pay all their bills.  The welfare state is good to have - but it isn't that good - and not actually much of a scroungers paradise for many.  And so when food and other costs start to go up due to Brexit - they have to find the additional cost out of their fixed Â£13.43 a day.
		
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Since September 2016 the Scottish Government have been given powers to supplement welfare payments in Scotland.  Why have they not improved the money your relatives receive if it's so low.


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## drdel (Mar 30, 2017)

I see Sturgeon has written a letter to the PM today requesting permission. It's not been 'posted' yet!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 30, 2017)

Looked like she was auditioning for googlebox&#128513;


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Looked like she was auditioning for googlebox&#62977;
		
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That post will take some topping today :clap:

I know she was attempting to look relaxed and casual but that doesn't work when you keep on your jacket. Who snuggles up, relaxed on a sofa in a work jacket? If you are going to stage a photo then put some thought into it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Since September 2016 the Scottish Government have been given powers to supplement welfare payments in Scotland.  Why have they not improved the money your relatives receive if it's so low.
		
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Their benefits have only just in the last month been cut under PIP (from Â£146/week to Â£94/week - so by about a 3rd)  The Scottish government may not be aware of the impact of PIP on payments.  So time will tell.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Looked like she was auditioning for googlebox&#128513;
		
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what's googlebox?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what's googlebox?
		
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Come on, catch up, this is 2017.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Come on, catch up, this is 2017.
		
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I've heard of gogglebox...

...and I still don't get it.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2017)

In the other thread seems dailymash links have returned...
Didn't realise how much I had missed them...

Can someone please post a wingsover link here... 
As I need cheering up and they never fail in making me smile ...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've heard of gogglebox...

...and I still don't get it.
		
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Next time you watch it look at how the vicar sits, the two incredibly dim young women from Leeds and the odd other person (all women for some reason). It is an identical pose.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Next time you watch it look at how the vicar sits, the two incredibly dim young women from Leeds and the odd other person (all women for some reason). It is an identical pose.
		
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Does the vicar not sit tucked up on her sofa?  Or have I missed a Sturgeon picture showing wee Nicola cuddling up to her hubby on the sofa - as she wasn't cuddling up to 'Mother' Theresa


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2017)

Val said:



			I don't believe for 1 minute they live on Â£94 for the 2 of them, to be honest I'd be surprised if it's as low as Â£94 each
		
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They get Â£94/week.  Honest.  For the two of them. In addition they get their wee house rent paid and most of their council tax.  They have a pretty darned miserable life and have no money to do anything 'nice'.  Their only upside is that they live in Brodick - though as mentioned it costs them a days allowance to get to the mainland for a cheap shop in the Ardrossan Asda, 

PIP

_Personal Independence Payment (PIP) helps with some of the extra costs caused by long-term ill-health or a disability if youâ€™re aged 16 to 64.

You could get between Â£21.80 and Â£139.75 a week.

The rate depends on how your condition affects you, not the condition itself._

Carer's Allowance

_You could get Â£62.10 a week if you care for someone at least 35 hours a week and they get certain benefits._

My sister is deemed to not need to care for her husband 35 hours a week and so the Â£62 is prorata'd down.

The total weekly benefit they receive is Â£94/week

I think the carer element is about Â£30 and PIP is Â£64

<Â£14/day - oh the scrougers off the state that they are


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## User62651 (Mar 31, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That post will take some topping today :clap:

I know she was attempting to look relaxed and casual but that doesn't work when you keep on your jacket. Who snuggles up, relaxed on a sofa in a work jacket? If you are going to stage a photo then put some thought into it.
		
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yes have to agree but the jacket matched the sofa colour which made it look staged to me more than the jacket itself, my house is fundamentally cold so I'll readily sit with a jacket on sometimes. 
Think it all started late 90s when Tony Blair came out to talk to the press at No. 10 with mug of tea in hand and unbuttoned shirt! - "Hey folks I'm just like you" kind of a deal. They've all been at it with overly-staged photos since, some better than others at it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2017)

Maxfli - Nearly every picture on the net and in newspapers are posed now. From a celeb leaving a restaurant to one working out in a park or lying on a beach in a bikini. Politicians are the same, except poor old Ed of course. Remember George's "I'm one of you eating a burger whilst writing the budget" (except it was a gourmet burger that was stupidly expensive). The White House have been releasing stage pictures for years and we are now catching up. We all know they are staged, all parties do it. Staging a photo to look relaxed when it is staged and so anything but relaxed looks artificially awkward to me. The jacket just adds to the artificial element. 

As it happens the whole fall out from Brexit means that no matter how loud NS jumps up and down she is not going to be heard. There are bigger fish to fry and air time and column inches are going to be based east to Europe and not North to Scotland. If I was advising NS I would tell her to drop Indy2 until Brexit has occurred. Keep your head down, run Scotland and look like a statesman. Work Europe, meet leaders, lay the groundwork. Then when Brexit has been completed start shouting again. She just looks petulant at the moment and I don't think the last week has done her any favours.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 31, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			In the other thread seems dailymash links have returned...
Didn't realise how much I had missed them...

Can someone please post a wingsover link here... 
As I need cheering up and they never fail in making me smile ...
		
Click to expand...

.......but will you still be laughing after this?

63% +3 years for my younger wife....60% +3 for me.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-calculator/


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.......but will you still be laughing after this?

63% +3 years for my younger wife....60% +3 for me.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-calculator/

Click to expand...

60% for me, and I've never had it so good... At least I've now got the SNP looking after me.


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## User62651 (Mar 31, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Maxfli - Nearly every picture on the net and in newspapers are posed now. From a celeb leaving a restaurant to one working out in a park or lying on a beach in a bikini. Politicians are the same, except poor old Ed of course. Remember George's "I'm one of you eating a burger whilst writing the budget" (except it was a gourmet burger that was stupidly expensive). The White House have been releasing stage pictures for years and we are now catching up. We all know they are staged, all parties do it. Staging a photo to look relaxed when it is staged and so anything but relaxed looks artificially awkward to me. The jacket just adds to the artificial element. 

As it happens the whole fall out from Brexit means that no matter how loud NS jumps up and down she is not going to be heard. There are bigger fish to fry and air time and column inches are going to be based east to Europe and not North to Scotland. If I was advising NS I would tell her to drop Indy2 until Brexit has occurred. Keep your head down, run Scotland and look like a statesman. Work Europe, meet leaders, lay the groundwork. Then when Brexit has been completed start shouting again. She just looks petulant at the moment and I don't think the last week has done her any favours.
		
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Yes to a point but NS only has to garner support in Scotland to achieve her party's ultimate goal, doesn't matter how she is thought of outside of Scotland really. Obviously she will be in the news and in people's minds much more up here becasue she's First Minister. When you watch BBC Scotland or STV news I'd say news relevant to Holyrood gets quite a lot more coverage than Westminster politics. She along with Davidson and Dugdale, Rennie and Harvie get a lot of airtime up here. Brexit is huge but with 62% going remain up here and having had no say at all in Brexit policy to date despite May's assurances (be that relevant or not in UK wide people's eyes) it is still significant leverage. She can't just sit quiet, she needs to be seen to stand up for the 9% of UK pop'n she represents via Holyrood. The large contingent in Westminster is also significant as Angus Roberston gets more questions than anyone but Corbyn at PMQ I think. Govt gets a far rougher ride and taken to task over policy from the SNP benches than Labour's imo. I can well imagine how she is received down in blue southern shires but look to NI and Wales and I think many people there see her in a better light than in England. How you all think of her outside of Scotland is not that relevant. I think she has wound her neck in a bit over Brexit but I haven't found any statements she's made to date to be stupid or not thought through. Does May ignore a parliamentary won manifesto commitment just because it's from Holyrood? She might but what will that achieve up here and what does it say about her and about devolved or federal governance?
Never say never in politics, has been an amazing and bewildering couple or three years. Not unfeasible we could in time be back in (not out yet I now) EU either as UK or as Scotland alone or totally out as UK, wouldn't want to bet on any outcome tbh.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Yes to a point but NS only has to garner support in Scotland to achieve her party's ultimate goal, doesn't matter how she is thought of outside of Scotland really. Obviously she will be in the news and in people's minds much more up here becasue she's First Minister. When you watch BBC Scotland or STV news I'd say news relevant to Holyrood gets quite a lot more coverage than Westminster politics. She along with Davidson and Dugdale, Rennie and Harvie get a lot of airtime up here. Brexit is huge but with 62% going remain up here and having had no say at all in Brexit despite May's assurances (be that relevant or not in UK wide people's eyes) it is still significant leverage. She can't just sit quiet, she needs to be seen to stand up for the 9% of UK pop'n she represents via Holyrood. The large contingent in Westminster is also significant as Angus Roberston gets more questions than anyone but Corbyn at PMQ I think. Govt gets a far rougher ride and taken to task over policy from the SNP benches than Labour's imo. I can well imagine how she is received down in blue southern shires but look to NI and Wales and I think many people there see her in a better light than in England.
		
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I don't think it is really appreciated that north of the border the goings on in Westminster are not really at the forefront of folks political thinking and news consumption.  In fact the way Holyrood and Sturgeon are often dismissed as 'side shows' and just 'pesky nuisances', it sometimes feel that many folks south of the border don't appreciate that Holyrood is a sovereign parliament and not just a talking shop or a local council.


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## User62651 (Mar 31, 2017)

What's the old adage about a picture vs a 1000 words? - doing the rounds on facebook  -
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...VY0xaBnuoSGrIMiA/w500-h300-rw/nopenopenop.gif


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think it is really appreciated that north of the border the goings on in Westminster are not really at the forefront of folks political thinking and news consumption.  In fact the way Holyrood and Sturgeon are often dismissed as 'side shows' and just 'pesky nuisances', it sometimes feel that many folks south of the border don't appreciate that Holyrood is a sovereign parliament and not just a talking shop or a local council.
		
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And how do you come to that observation.  Have you asked us all?


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Their benefits have only just in the last month been cut under PIP (from Â£146/week to Â£94/week - so by about a 3rd)  The Scottish government may not be aware of the impact of PIP on payments.  So time will tell.
		
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Those are individual payments and if they are on a pension that is not affected. If the individual is over 64 there are other benefits available.

If the Scottish government are not aware of the impact on PIP payments they aren't fit to govern because most charities whole deal with this area are.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			What's the old adage about a picture vs a 1000 words? - doing the rounds on facebook  -
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...VY0xaBnuoSGrIMiA/w500-h300-rw/nopenopenop.gif

Click to expand...

Seems like four words to me.  I'll let you guess them.


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## JamPal (Mar 31, 2017)

So according to Little Elton, UK independence is a bad thing. Scottish independence is a good thing?

As much as I wish we would remain in the EU (and long term we will of course slowly re-join) It's done and you can't use one bad choice as an excuse for another.


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## IanM (Mar 31, 2017)

...assuming there's an EU left to rejoin....

....anyway, Paddy Power are taking bets on the reasons the SNP might give for needing each of the next 5 or 6 Scottish Indy Referendums (referenda? )

...shrinking Mars Bars is way out in front!


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## User62651 (Mar 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Seems like four words to me.  I'll let you guess them.
		
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Not a clue, care to enlighten?

Looks like a budding mutual reciprocal relationship destroyed by a psychopathic bully, I'll let you guess who the bully is!


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2017)

That would normally be a Scot then.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Not a clue, care to enlighten?

Looks like a budding mutual reciprocal relationship destroyed by a psychopathic bully, I'll let you guess who the bully is!
		
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Well! One of them is English.

Oh! I get it  now, it's a bit like a mutually beneficial relationship that is being destroyed by a psychopathic bully in Holyrood for a mutually destructive relationship with a psychopathic  bully in Brussels.   Go for it!


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## User62651 (Mar 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Well! One of them is English.

Oh! I get it  now, it's a bit like a mutually beneficial relationship that is being destroyed by a psychopathic bully in Holyrood for a mutually destructive relationship with a psychopathic  bully in Brussels.   Go for it!
		
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You dont even know what film it's from do you? If you did your interpretation might not be so addled!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			And how do you come to that observation.  Have you asked us all?
		
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It is an observation that I have arrived at by simply observing disparaging, dismissive and derogatory comments made about Sturgeon and Holyrood that emanate from some apparently informed members of 'the people' who live south of the border - and from some here.


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is an observation that I have arrived at by simply observing disparaging, dismissive and derogatory comments made about Sturgeon and Holyrood that emanate from some apparently informed members of 'the people' who live south of the border - and from some here.
		
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Unfortunately the lady gives the impression that she is dismissive and derogatory of anything south of the boarder and so the impression and feelings appear to be fairly mutual.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is an observation that I have arrived at by simply observing disparaging, dismissive and derogatory comments made about Sturgeon and Holyrood that emanate from some apparently informed members of 'the people' who live south of the border - and from some here.
		
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I think you will find rather a lot of disparaging, dismissive and derogatory comments made about Sturgeon and Holyrood emanating North of the Border.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			You dont even know what film it's from do you? If you did your interpretation might not be so addled!
		
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Let me see now!   Was it Alex met Nichola?   Or What's wrong with Virgina Sturgeon?  How about A fish called Alex?


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## GreiginFife (Mar 31, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			You dont even know what film it's from do you? If you did your interpretation might not be so addled!
		
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Shoooooshhhh!!


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## GreiginFife (Mar 31, 2017)

Its a leap in the dark and a wreckless gamble. She is unable to answer basic questions about what it will all mean.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2017)

GreiginFife said:



			Its a leap in the dark and a wreckless gamble. She is unable to answer basic questions about what it will all mean.
		
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Are you posting about talking May or Sturgeon ?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.......but will you still be laughing after this?

63% +3 years for my younger wife....60% +3 for me.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-calculator/

Click to expand...


That's not a 'proper' link... I want one with all the 'balanced' comments attached...

And, 63% for me... The Blair/Brown years need to be included as they were tories with red rosettes...


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## GreiginFife (Apr 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you posting about talking May or Sturgeon ?
		
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Both. The hypocrisy is unreal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2017)

I like the pink rather than the blue


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I like the pink rather than the blue

View attachment 22390

Click to expand...

A Jambos coloured passport that will upset the Uglies.

OT....I see the Saintees players showed a fine fighting spirit on Saturday


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A Jambos coloured passport that will upset the Uglies.

OT....I see the Saintees players showed a fine fighting spirit on Saturday
		
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idiots.  Mind you - not so hot from the Jambos against the Sellick...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2017)

What's that the Spanish Foreign Minister has been saying about an Indy Scotland and membership of the EU?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/spain-would-not-block-independent-scotland-eu-application-1-4409892


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## drdel (Apr 4, 2017)

I see Sturgeon is on a (holiday) 'state' visit to California and signed a deal to support their independence from USA, and hers from UK.

What's that all about?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2017)

drdel said:



			I see Sturgeon is on a (holiday) 'state' visit to California and signed a deal to support their independence from USA, and hers from UK.

What's that all about?
		
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California are considering Independence from Trump's USA. Areas of mutual understanding.

Whilst Nicola is seeking clean air deals......... PM Mayhem is busy flogging more UK made cluster bombs to the Saudi's


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2017)

Something to think about... Perhaps?

http://www.investmentweek.co.uk/inv...ferral&utm_content=msn-edgedefaulthomepage-uk


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Something to think about... Perhaps?

http://www.investmentweek.co.uk/inv...ferral&utm_content=msn-edgedefaulthomepage-uk

Click to expand...

Yes the fall in Sterling since Brexit is a worry, I think we will be just dandy though once we can look after our own economy.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What's that the Spanish Foreign Minister has been saying about an Indy Scotland and membership of the EU?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/spain-would-not-block-independent-scotland-eu-application-1-4409892

Click to expand...

Confirming that Scotland would have to apply for membership contrary to the SNP statement.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes the fall in Sterling since Brexit is a worry, I think we will be just dandy though *once we can look after our own economy*.
		
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Not much evidence of that ever happening.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2017)

Made me giggle


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2017)

bobmac said:



View attachment 22396


Made me giggle
		
Click to expand...

Could've stuck anyones face in that, yours, mine, Nicola's whomever. The Jimmy Crankie likeness is funny, that isn't sorry.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2017)

bobmac said:



View attachment 22396


Made me giggle
		
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I sniggered that it made you giggle.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2017)

Now here's an idea

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39510351


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## drdel (Apr 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Now here's an idea

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39510351

Click to expand...

So its only us English she wants to get away from - nice to know our support is appreciated


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2017)

drdel said:



			So its only us English she wants to get away from - nice to know our support is appreciated
		
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I would love to know how your brain came to that conclusion after reading that article.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 9, 2017)

Usual double standards from Salmond...

The democratic will of the people of Scotland should be listened to...
Whilst the democratic will of the people of the UK [as a whole] should be ignored...


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 9, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Usual double standards from Salmond...

The democratic will of the people of Scotland should be listened to...
Whilst the democratic will of the people of the UK [as a whole] should be ignored...
		
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Plus the democratic will of the Scottish people should be ignored when we vote against Indy as we did not so terribly long ago....


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## drdel (Apr 9, 2017)

I'm afraid the standards of quite a few of our politicians is pretty abysmal. 

Salmon and Sturgeon seem to be driven by something which is well beyond me and, IMHO, not in the best interest of the voters they are there to serve !


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2017)

Speaking of standards......Marr toeing the BBC/MSM/Westminster line that the majority of Scots do not want Indyref2 whilst the one poll published after Brexit had Scots 51% in favour.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of standards......Marr toeing the BBC/MSM/Westminster line that the majority of Scots do not want Indyref2 whilst the one poll published after Brexit had Scots 51% in favour.
		
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One poll out of how many indicate this? One thing we can be sure of, from recent political times, there's a poll out there to support any stance... 

If Marr didn't ask the question, of the politicians he has on his show, they'd have no platform to put forward their stance... 

Was a bit envious of where Alex was enjoying his morning though...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			One poll out of how many indicate this? One thing we can be sure of, from recent political times, there's a poll out there to support any stance... 

If Marr didn't ask the question, of the politicians he has on his show, they'd have no platform to put forward their stance... 

Was a bit envious of where Alex was enjoying his morning though...
		
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err..... One poll out of one since Brexit, there has only been one.
Marr asked the question.....Salmond replied.
I take it you were not watching/paying attention.


I think that is Alex's back garden.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			err..... One poll out of one since Brexit, there has only been one.
Marr asked the question.....Salmond replied.
I take it you were not watching/paying attention.


I think that is Alex's back garden.
		
Click to expand...

You might be quoting the one immediately after the Brexit vote. Below are the two most recent.

The BMG poll for The Herald indicated 49 percent of Scots support independence with 51 percent opposing it, after "don't know" votes are removed. 


A similar survey conducted last month showed roughly the same result as the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, with 45.5 percent in favour of independence and 54.5 percent against, the newspaper said.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You might be quoting the one immediately after the Brexit vote. Below are the two most recent.

The BMG poll for The Herald indicated 49 percent of Scots support independence with 51 percent opposing it, after "don't know" votes are removed. 


A similar survey conducted last month showed roughly the same result as the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, with 45.5 percent in favour of independence and 54.5 percent against, the newspaper said.
		
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i take it the Wings blogger missed those.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You might be quoting the one immediately after the Brexit vote. Below are the two most recent.

The BMG poll for The Herald indicated 49 percent of Scots support independence with 51 percent opposing it, after "don't know" votes are removed. 

Herald poll 49%/51% is dated 8th Feb so probably polled end of January........a lot has happened since then.
Even by that poll nobody should be saying that there is no support for Indyref 2. But they do:blah:
		
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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:





Hobbit said:



			You might be quoting the one immediately after the Brexit vote. Below are the two most recent.

The BMG poll for The Herald indicated 49 percent of Scots support independence with 51 percent opposing it, after "don't know" votes are removed. 

Herald poll 49%/51% is dated 8th Feb so probably polled end of January........a lot has happened since then.
Even by that poll nobody should be saying that there is no support for Indyref 2. But they do:blah:
		
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You started out by saying "the one poll." 

I hadn't realised people were saying there's no support. Clearly there is, as evidenced in the polls. And certainly there's been enough polls in recent times that have been off the mark for everyone to realise that the with the indey polls being so close it could go either way.

I'm surprised May hasn't said yes, lets do it, and given a date for it. The uncertainty of when that Sturgeon has can only be in May's favour. 

As an aside, if Scotland went their own way now, that's a couple of mill off the Remain vote...
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2017)

Since triggering of Brexit.

There is no one to lead or put up a reasonable argument for No voters this time.

Look at the 2014 naesayer leaders then look at the Yes leaders
Perhaps you could suggest a few folk who could lead the No voters but I think it will be a case of Yesterdays Men v Tomorrows People.

Even though the timing is wrong due to Brexit, I think that Scotland will be an Independent country by 2020.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 9, 2017)

I wouldn't disagree with the outcome being an independent Scotland as I think that it's too close to call either way. I think your timescale could be a bit tight though. If May has said no vote until after the Brexit negotiations then that's likely to be the end of 2019 at the earliest. Then with negotiations on Scotland's departure I would think 2021 or more likely 2022 before it's settled.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Since triggering of Brexit.

There is no one to lead or put up a reasonable argument for No voters this time.

Look at the 2014 naesayer leaders then look at the Yes leaders
Perhaps you could suggest a few folk who could lead the No voters but I think it will be a case of Yesterdays Men v Tomorrows People.

Even though the timing is wrong due to Brexit, I think that Scotland will be an Independent country by 2020.
		
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Maybe they're concentrating on Brexit?

That said, I don't think there's the same appetite amongst the politicians for a campaign at present. Even Sturgeon seems to have cooled it a fair bit.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			That said, I don't think there's the same appetite amongst the politicians for a campaign at present. Even Sturgeon seems to have cooled it a fair bit.
		
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Perhaps to do with the downturn in the Scottish economy Salmond was talking about this morning... 100,000 job losses in the off-shore and related 'industries'... 


Sadly, true to form, he was advising of [wishing for] a similar downturn for the rUK... Once the Brexit bubble has burst... Apparently...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps to do with the downturn in the Scottish economy Salmond was talking about this morning... 100,000 job losses in the off-shore and related 'industries'... 


Sadly, true to form, he was advising of [wishing for] a similar downturn for the rUK... Once the Brexit bubble has burst... Apparently...
		
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention that the latest Scottish downturn was less than the RUK.
I suggest you watch it again on catch up with a more enquiring mind, you might just learn something.

Hobbit.......you are right, the timing is all wrong due to Brexit, but if May forces the issue it could change everything.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe they're concentrating on Brexit?

That said, I don't think there's the same appetite amongst the politicians for a campaign at present. Even Sturgeon seems to have cooled it a fair bit.
		
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Can you not come up with even one name to lead the No campaign.....it's difficult eh.

No Darling boy this time.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you not come up with even one name to lead the No campaign.....it's difficult eh.

No Darling boy this time.

Click to expand...

The NO campaign doesn't interest me. I'm all for self determination, just not led by the SNP.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			The NO campaign doesn't interest me. I'm all for self determination, just not led by the SNP.
		
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Doon didn't want 'self determination' last time round... He was hankering after option 3 [devomax] which wasn't on the list...  I wonder if Juncker could see his way to offering the UK 'devomax' rather than hard Brexit...  Probably not...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Doon didn't want 'self determination' last time round... He was hankering after option 3 [devomax] which wasn't on the list...  I wonder if Juncker could see his way to offering the UK 'devomax' rather than hard Brexit...  Probably not...
		
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Wasn't the panic stricken 'Vow' a Devomax option offered to the voters. [except the postal ones like me]......... that lasted about 7 hours until Cameron broke it by introducing EVEL.
This then prompted a massive surge in SNP membership and the current situation.


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## Val (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You forgot to mention that the latest Scottish downturn was less than the RUK.
I suggest you watch it again on catch up with a more enquiring mind, you might just learn something.

Hobbit.......you are right, the timing is all wrong due to Brexit, but if May forces the issue it could change everything.
		
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Genuine question, are you sure this is correct? Every report ive seen on this recently suggests otherwise.

Happy to be shown differently if you could oblige.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You forgot to mention that the latest Scottish downturn was less than the RUK.
I suggest you watch it again on catch up with a more enquiring mind, you might just learn something.

Hobbit.......you are right, the timing is all wrong due to Brexit, but if May forces the issue it could change everything.
		
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Try reading this with a more 'OPEN' mind and you might learn something:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...onomically-risky-scottish-independence-would/


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2017)

Val said:



			Genuine question, are you sure this is correct? Every report ive seen on this recently suggests otherwise.

Happy to be shown differently if you could oblige.
		
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Salmond spoke about it on Marr show, he is generally very accurate.
I have a link somewhere, try to sort for you.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 10, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps to do with the downturn in the Scottish economy Salmond was talking about this morning... 100,000 job losses in the off-shore and related 'industries'... 


Sadly, true to form, he was advising of [wishing for] a similar downturn for the rUK... Once the Brexit bubble has burst... Apparently...
		
Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			You forgot to mention that the latest Scottish downturn was less than the RUK.
I suggest you watch it again on catch up with a more enquiring mind, you might just learn something.
		
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Alex was saying 100,000 job losses in Scotland would be equivalent to 1M in the rUK... And, once the Brexit bubble has burst the rUK will see their economy collapse in a similar way... Has a spiteful way about him...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2017)

Val said:



			Genuine question, are you sure this is correct? Every report ive seen on this recently suggests otherwise.

Happy to be shown differently if you could oblige.
		
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Sorry you are right, my mistake......the bit I was referring to was taking SE England and London out of the script and comparing Scotland with like for like regions of the UK.........surprisingly NW England was ahead with Scotland about third/fourth.


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## Val (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry you are right, my mistake......the bit I was referring to was taking SE England and London out of the script and comparing Scotland with like for like regions of the UK.........surprisingly NW England was ahead with Scotland about third/fourth.
		
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Cheers, most reports suggested Scotland were on the verge of a recession which in the context of the U.K. as a whole means little but with Scotland as an independent country it's quite worrying. I don't buy this propping up country/region nonsense. We thrive as a union and splitting is a recipe for disaster at this time.

Give us 10 years after Brexit and re-visit it. I've many friends who are independence supporters and all will vote for it but none want it right now, they believe the timing is all wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2017)

Val said:



			Cheers, most reports suggested Scotland were on the verge of a recession which in the context of the U.K. as a whole means little but with Scotland as an independent country it's quite worrying. I don't buy this propping up country/region nonsense. We thrive as a union and splitting is a recipe for disaster at this time.

Give us 10 years after Brexit and re-visit it. I've many friends who are independence supporters and all will vote for it but none want it right now, they believe the timing is all wrong.
		
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Don't disagree with timing
May is going to have to come up with an exceptionally good deal for Scotland to make up for the disaster of leaving the single market.
Somehow I don't think that will happen.


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't disagree with timing
May is going to have to come up with an exceptionally good deal for Scotland to make up for the disaster of leaving the single market.
Somehow I don't think that will happen.
		
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Curious as to why the PM has to come up with a good 'deal'! If you all believe the SNP are your saviours then go for it. If not then vote against them.

Why is it the UK needs to do more than we do already? There is no more cash, if you have more someone elsewhere has less.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2017)

drdel said:



			Curious as to why the PM has to come up with a good 'deal'! If you all believe the SNP are your saviours then go for it. If not then vote against them.

Why is it the UK needs to do more than we do already? There is no more cash, if you have more someone elsewhere has less.
		
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Leaving the EU will have a much bigger negative impact on Scotland.

It will be interesting to see if we get our own fisheries back [as promised by Leavers]
I think they will be traded against a Spanish/EU deal on Gibraltar, so Scotland will be stuffed by the Tories yet again.

PS I thought there was 'Loadsamoney' promised by the Del Boys who mis-sold us Brexit, are you saying there is nothing there?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Leaving the EU will have a much bigger negative impact on Scotland.

It will be interesting to see if we get our own fisheries back [as promised by Leavers]
I think they will be traded against a Spanish/EU deal on Gibraltar, so Scotland will be stuffed by the Tories yet again.

PS I thought there was 'Loadsamoney' promised by the Del Boys who mis-sold us Brexit, are you saying there is nothing there?
		
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Your posts are full of twaddle, it's all supposition and made up rubbish.

Please show where Scotland was promised their own fishery borders by leavers.  Your suggestion there will be a trade off against Gibraltar  has no foundation and is just your silly trolling at work.  You don't know what the outcome of Brexit will be so how can you use a term like 'Mis-sold'.    Please grow up and stop telling untruths and out and out lies, it makes you look more stupid then you probably are.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Your posts are full of twaddle, it's all supposition and made up rubbish.

Please show where Scotland was promised their own fishery borders by leavers.  Your suggestion there will be a trade off against Gibraltar  has no foundation and is just your silly trolling at work.  You don't know what the outcome of Brexit will be so how can you use a term like 'Mis-sold'.    Please grow up and stop telling untruths and out and out lies, it makes you look more stupid then you probably are.
		
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One click on google, that is all you need

http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2017)

Quite an amusing take as to what passes as 'the opposition' in Scottish Politics

https://wingsoverscotland.com/murdo-fraser-wins-a-vote/#more-93548


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One click on google, that is all you need

http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx

Click to expand...


Which seem to to be within your current powers anyway.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One click on google, that is all you need

http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx

Click to expand...

That link shows nothing to support your accusations.  I ask you again: 
"Please show where Scotland was promised their own fishery borders by leavers."


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That link shows nothing to support your accusations.  I ask you again: 
"Please show where Scotland was promised their own fishery borders by leavers."
		
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He gets confused easily, he thinks making laws has something to do with boarders and taking his knowledge of countries into consideration is hardly surprising.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't disagree with timing
May is going to have to come up with an exceptionally good deal for Scotland to make up for the disaster of leaving the single market.
Somehow I don't think that will happen.
		
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If leaving the Eu single market is a disaster why would leaving the (more important) uk single market help things?


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## Val (Apr 10, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			If leaving the Eu single market is a disaster why would leaving the (more important) uk single market help things?
		
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Come on you, too hard a question that. Even Sturgeon avoids that one. :rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

Do you seriously think that the rUK will stop trading with iScotland.

Tariffs put on Scots exports to the EU such as food & drink will certainly dent our economy. Perhaps May could offer a special Nissan type deal. [BTW Why are the Tories stopping the Scottish government from examining that deal, not better together it seems]

Employment in Tourism/hospitality/agriculture will be hit by the loss of free travel within the EU. Unless we can entice them in via the Irish escape tunnel.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That link shows nothing to support your accusations.  I ask you again: 
"Please show where Scotland was promised their own fishery borders by leavers."
		
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oh dear....Agriculture and Fisheries are devolved issues. They have had their own borders [or boarders as your wee pal calls them] for umpteen years.


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## Val (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Do you seriously think that the rUK will stop trading with iScotland.*

Tariffs put on Scots exports to the EU such as food & drink will certainly dent our economy. Perhaps May could offer a special Nissan type deal. [BTW Why are the Tories stopping the Scottish government from examining that deal, not better together it seems]

Employment in Tourism/hospitality/agriculture will be hit by the loss of free travel within the EU. Unless we can entice them in via the Irish escape tunnel.
		
Click to expand...

Not a chance


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## Hobbit (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you seriously think that the rUK will stop trading with iScotland.

Tariffs put on Scots exports to the EU such as food & drink will certainly dent our economy. Perhaps May could offer a special Nissan type deal. [BTW Why are the Tories stopping the Scottish government from examining that deal, not better together it seems]

Employment in Tourism/hospitality/agriculture will be hit by the loss of free travel within the EU. Unless we can entice them in via the Irish escape tunnel.
		
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Define free travel. Its not free to travel anywhere, cost of flights etc. So there'll be queuing to get your visa inspected, like getting into the USA.

Its a freedom to work issue, not a freedom to travel. And I'm yet to hear any politician say no to bringing in workers. Even Farage has continually said controlled migration.

rUK might not have any choice in how it trades with Scotland. Once Scotland is ruled by Brussels, Brussels may be saying no trading with rUK.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			oh dear....Agriculture and Fisheries are devolved issues. They have had their own borders [or boarders as your wee pal calls them] for umpteen years.
		
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So you refuse to support your allegations.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you seriously think that the rUK will stop trading with iScotland.

Tariffs put on Scots exports to the EU such as food & drink will certainly dent our economy. Perhaps May could offer a special Nissan type deal. [BTW Why are the Tories stopping the Scottish government from examining that deal, not better together it seems]

Employment in Tourism/hospitality/agriculture will be hit by the loss of free travel within the EU. Unless we can entice them in via the Irish escape tunnel.
		
Click to expand...

Why would any country in Europe stop trading with others?  The difference after Scotland becoming Independent of the UK would be that they would not have the UK free trade they currently enjoy.   A trading arrangement would need to be negotiated and would probably be less beneficial than UK country states receive.   If they eventually get membership of the EU which IMO is doubtful due to the poor state their economy would be in then they would trade with the UK under the same rules as other EU states.  Scots would also be subject to the same immigration restraints as every other country.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So you refuse to support your allegations.
		
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If you mean that May will break the Sewell convention yet again and use the Scottish fisheries to do a deal with Spain/EU over Gibraltar...
I think recent Tory history is not on Scotland's side and it is likely to happen. Watch this space.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Why would any country in Europe stop trading with others?  The difference after Scotland becoming Independent of the UK would be that they would not have the UK free trade they currently enjoy.   A trading arrangement would need to be negotiated and would probably be less beneficial than UK country states receive.   If they eventually get membership of the EU which IMO is doubtful due to the poor state their economy would be in then they would trade with the UK under the same rules as other EU states.  Scots would also be subject to the same immigration restraints as every other country.
		
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For the record........Scotland does not have it's own economy. It's finances are controlled by the UK economy.


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## Val (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For the record........Scotland does not have it's own economy. It's finances are controlled by the UK economy.
		
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So why are we hearing pro independence talking about the Scottish economy flourishing when they don't know what it is if it doesn't have one?

It's easy to use both sides of that coin to back up both arguements, bottom line though, the "potential" Scottish economy is struggling right now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

Val said:



			So why are we hearing pro independence talking about the Scottish economy flourishing when they don't know what it is if it doesn't have one?

It's easy to use both sides of that coin to back up both arguements, bottom line though, the "potential" Scottish economy is struggling right now.
		
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Well, perhaps we are doing OK despite being hampered by the huge debt hung around our necks by the UK economy [winky man in case you miss it]

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well, perhaps we are doing OK despite being hampered by the huge debt hung around our necks by the UK economy [winky man in case you miss it]
		
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Good job none of that debt has been incurred by spending in Scotland or by the Scottish govt . (I went smiley rather than winky :thup


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## Val (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well, perhaps we are doing OK despite being hampered by the huge debt hung around our necks by the UK economy [winky man in case you miss it]

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Click to expand...

Perhaps not given the Scottish Government continue to spend more than they "earn". 

3 letters is all you need when you talk about Scotland and debt - R.B.S.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2017)

Val said:



			Perhaps not given the Scottish Government continue to spend more than they "earn". 

3 letters is all you need when you talk about Scotland and debt - R.B.S.
		
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Despite the name RBS is hardly a 'Scotland' issue.  It was a banking issue - with freedoms to operate as they wanted as regulation and monitoring was relaxed.

A huge pity that greedy individuals and lack of corporate governance trashed the name of one of Scotland's greatest institutions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

For all the Jimmy Krankie fans out there:whoo:

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...Scots_say_the_UK_is_going_in_wrong_direction/


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

Val said:



			Perhaps not given the Scottish Government continue to spend more than they "earn". 

3 letters is all you need when you talk about Scotland and debt - R.B.S.
		
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They moved their HQ to London prior to the 2014 Referendum so ...it is now an England problem.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good job none of that debt has been incurred by spending in Scotland or by the Scottish govt . (I went smiley rather than winky :thup

Click to expand...

I think our 'share' is around 9.5%........we could get a pay day loan to cover that.


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## Old Skier (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They moved their HQ to London prior to the 2014 Referendum so ...it is now an England problem.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately Scotland's continued overspend is the RUK problem as the SNP and it's supporters fail to associate income with expenditure. 

PS. I may not be great on spelling border but at least I know when a country is a country.

The fact that the SNP have had the ability to legislate on fisheries issues for some time appears to have past you by.


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## Old Skier (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For all the Jimmy Krankie fans out there:whoo:

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...Scots_say_the_UK_is_going_in_wrong_direction/

Click to expand...

I presume this is the opinion of the few remaining true Scots living in Scotland.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For all the Jimmy Krankie fans out there:whoo:

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...Scots_say_the_UK_is_going_in_wrong_direction/

Click to expand...

Priceless.  The SNP's Daily Bugle :rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Priceless.  The SNP's Daily Bugle :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Your usual boring blinkered insulting response.  

The information is actually from Lord Ashcroft's recent poll.

hey Ho


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## Old Skier (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Your usual boring blinkered insulting response.  

hey Ho
		
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Life on the internet - dish it out - get it back.


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## Val (Apr 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Despite the name RBS is hardly a 'Scotland' issue.  It was a banking issue - with freedoms to operate as they wanted as regulation and monitoring was relaxed.

A huge pity that greedy individuals and lack of corporate governance trashed the name of one of Scotland's greatest institutions.
		
Click to expand...

You miss the point, RBS is a Scottish business and it was bailed out to the tune of hundreds of millions of government money.


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## Val (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They moved their HQ to London prior to the 2014 Referendum so ...it is now an England problem.
		
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Wishful thinking, and a nice incorrect attempt at a swerve. RBS registered office and registered business is still Edinburgh.


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They moved their HQ to London prior to the 2014 Referendum so ...it is now an England problem.
		
Click to expand...

RBS registered office is still St Andrew's Square in Edinburgh.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

Val said:



			Wishful thinking, and a nice incorrect attempt at a swerve. RBS registered office and registered business is still Edinburgh.
		
Click to expand...

Not according to these guys............
BTW they have the Branch office address wrong St Andrews Square has never been in East Lothian.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...rectory-detail.html?castMemberId=ALSE1A0003T5


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not according to these guys............
BTW they have the Branch office address wrong St Andrews Square has never been in East Lothian.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...rectory-detail.html?castMemberId=ALSE1A0003T5

Click to expand...

http://www.rbs.com/faqs.html


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC046419


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## drdel (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They moved their HQ to London prior to the 2014 Referendum so ...it is now an England problem.
		
Click to expand...

Amazing how Scotland sees everything as an English problem to be solved by England. Where's the UK in this.


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC090312


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## Old Skier (Apr 11, 2017)

Someone has it wrong General FAQs - RBSwww.rbs.com â€º faqs

What is the registered address of the RBS head office? The registered address is The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland No 90312. Registered Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh, United Kingdom


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC045551


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Someone has it wrong General FAQs - RBSwww.rbs.com â€º faqs

What is the registered address of the RBS head office? The registered address is The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland No 90312. Registered Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh, United Kingdom

Click to expand...

The head office of RBS Plc is indeed in Edinburgh, the Bishopsgate listing is for RBS International PLC, which is confirmed if you look it up on Companies House website.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			The head office of RBS Plc is indeed in Edinburgh, the Bishopsgate listing is for RBS International PLC, which is confirmed if you look it up on Companies House website.
		
Click to expand...

So we are both right then.
Mind you The International PLC has the Edinburgh address as a branch office.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Apr 11, 2017)

drdel said:



			Amazing how Scotland sees everything as an English problem to be solved by England. Where's the UK in this.
		
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DFT does not speak for Scotland


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So we are both right then.
Mind you The International PLC has the Edinburgh address as a branch office.
		
Click to expand...

No, you are wrong...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

drdel said:



			Amazing how Scotland sees everything as an English problem to be solved by England. Where's the UK in this.
		
Click to expand...

Last time I looked London was in England.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Someone has it wrong General FAQs - RBSwww.rbs.com â€º faqs

What is the registered address of the RBS head office? The registered address is The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland No 90312. Registered Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh, United Kingdom

Click to expand...

For some reason I thought that was being converted into a pub!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			DFT does not speak for Scotland 

Click to expand...

I don't even speak for my own house:lol:


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't even speak for my own house:lol:
		
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  .


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			No, you are wrong...
		
Click to expand...

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...rectory-detail.html?castMemberId=ALSE1A0003T5

Sorry to labour a point but this says PLC..........no mention of 'International'.


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...rectory-detail.html?castMemberId=ALSE1A0003T5

Sorry to labour a point but this says PLC..........no mention of 'International'.
		
Click to expand...

Companies House is the official register of companies in the UK. I've posted the link above, the PLC head office is Edniburgh.


----------



## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

Here it is for you again, PLC listing on Companies House website...

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC045551


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC090312


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

2 listings, one for PLC and the other the PLC group, both head offices in Edinburgh.


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## Val (Apr 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not according to these guys............
BTW they have the Branch office address wrong St Andrews Square has never been in East Lothian.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...rectory-detail.html?castMemberId=ALSE1A0003T5

Click to expand...

They have more than that wrong. Ger147 correctly points out the address that matters, the registered address with companies house.


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## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

Val said:



			They have more than that wrong. Ger147 correctly points out the address that matters, the registered address with companies house.
		
Click to expand...

Both RBS Plc and RBS Group Plc head offices are in Edinburgh as per the CH links above. RBS International Plc head office is Bishopsgate, and RBS International Plc was only incorporated in the last month or so.


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## drdel (Apr 11, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Both RBS Plc and RBS Group Plc head offices are in Edinburgh as per the CH links above. RBS International Plc head office is Bishopsgate, and RBS International Plc was only incorporated in the last month or so.
		
Click to expand...

You are mistaken if you think facts will change minds in this thread.


----------



## ger147 (Apr 11, 2017)

drdel said:



			You are mistaken if you think facts will change minds in this thread.
		
Click to expand...

Aye, it'll never catch on...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2017)

Speaking of facts the Maley Dale is a hoot.
They are now reduced to desperately bad photoshop images of the Scottish first minister and wailing that 81% of Scots do not think that she is doing an excellent job.:lol:


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## Val (Apr 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of facts the Maley Dale is a hoot.
They are now reduced to desperately bad photoshop images of the Scottish first minister and wailing that 81% of Scots do not think that she is doing an excellent job.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

That number is definitely wrong.......................................it should be higher


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2017)

The simple point I made about the RBS was that it wasn't a Made-in-Scotland economic issue out of Made-in-Scotland economic failings or Holyrood government policy.  It was a UK economic issue coming out of a global issue - made by a global bank whose registered address is in Edinburgh.  Did the profits of RBS (when they made them) go direct into the vaults of Holyrood?  I don't think so.


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## Val (Apr 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The simple point I made about the RBS was that it wasn't a Made-in-Scotland economic issue out of Made-in-Scotland economic failings or Holyrood government policy.  It was a UK economic issue coming out of a global issue - made by a global bank whose registered address is in Edinburgh.  Did the profits of RBS (when they made them) go direct into the vaults of Holyrood?  I don't think so.
		
Click to expand...

I think you miss the point made altogether quite frankly. The RBS scenario was raised to counter the fact that it was implied Scotland was being crippled by Westminsters created debt, I merely pointed out some of this debt was created by a Scottish company being bailed out to the tune of hundreds of millions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2017)

Val said:



			I think you miss the point made altogether quite frankly. The RBS scenario was raised to counter the fact that it was implied Scotland was being crippled by Westminsters created debt, I merely pointed out some of this debt was created by a Scottish company being bailed out to the tune of hundreds of millions.
		
Click to expand...

OK - RBS is a Scottish company but their debt was hardly debt created in Scotland...


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## Val (Apr 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - RBS is a Scottish company but their debt was hardly debt created in Scotland...
		
Click to expand...

No one said it was


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2017)

Val said:



			No one said it was
		
Click to expand...

But the RBS example was used to counter the Westminster-created debt point - when they are, as you say, not equivalent.


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## Val (Apr 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But the RBS example was used to counter the Westminster-created debt point - when they are, as you say, not equivalent.
		
Click to expand...

RBS was raised to explain that a Scottish company helped add to the Westminster debt when the original inference was the Westminster debt was a noose around Scotlands neck. Scotland (the government) and Scottish businesses helped create the debt, they weren't and aren't angels.

What is hard to understand?


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - RBS is a Scottish company but their debt was hardly debt created in Scotland...
		
Click to expand...

Whether it was created in Scotland or not it is part of the UK's debt. Equally, if it hadn't been bailed out, the potential meltdown could have been far worse.

You, like Doon, seem to often imply nothing is Scotland's fault. Using your logic, nothing is York's or Preston's fault either. But as you know that isn't the case. 

it is a UK, including Scotland, responsibility.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Whether it was created in Scotland or not it is part of the UK's debt. Equally, if it hadn't been bailed out, the potential meltdown could have been far worse.

You, like Doon, seem to often imply nothing is Scotland's fault. Using your logic, nothing is York's or Preston's fault either. But as you know that isn't the case. 

it is a UK, including Scotland, responsibility.
		
Click to expand...

Naw....... draw the line at York.........they are Southern softies.
The 'good guys' line is from Preston to just north of Hartlepool. [something seriously wrong about folk who hang monkeys as French spies]


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw....... draw the line at York.........they are Southern softies.
The 'good guys' line is from Preston to just north of Hartlepool. [something seriously wrong about folk who hang monkeys as French spies]
		
Click to expand...

You had better keep clear of Hartlepool then


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The simple point I made about the RBS was that it wasn't a Made-in-Scotland economic issue out of Made-in-Scotland economic failings or Holyrood government policy.  It was a UK economic issue coming out of a global issue - made by a global bank whose registered address is in Edinburgh.  Did the profits of RBS (when they made them) go direct into the vaults of Holyrood?  I don't think so.
		
Click to expand...

Their tax did but they did say that in the last Scottish Indy Referendum if there were a YES vote they would move their HQ to London so Holyrood would lose their tax.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The 'good guys' line is from Preston to just north of Hartlepool. [something seriously wrong about folk who hang monkeys as French spies]
		
Click to expand...

They were wearing berets, what else could they have been? &#128513;


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 28, 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/studentmoneysaver/videos/1422030677855850/

:rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2017)

In the real world.......I just got my Tory manifesto for the council elections and there was not ONE Tory political proposal/idea listed.
The whole leaflet was about saying no to independence, even May said to use the local elections to say no to Independence. 
Totally negative, absolutely no fresh ideas, embarrassed by Westminster's bedroom tax and rape clause, and flip flopping aboot like a very flip floppity dolphin, that's the Scottish Tories


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the real world.......I just got my Tory manifesto for the council elections and there was not ONE Tory political proposal/idea listed.
The whole leaflet was about saying no to independence, even May said to use the local elections to say no to Independence. 
Totally negative, absolutely no fresh ideas, embarrassed by Westminster's bedroom tax and rape clause, and flip flopping aboot like a very flip floppity dolphin, that's the Scottish Tories
		
Click to expand...

Gone fishing


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the real world.......I just got my Tory manifesto for the council elections and there was not ONE Tory political proposal/idea listed.
The whole leaflet was about saying no to independence, even May said to use the local elections to say no to Independence. 
Totally negative, absolutely no fresh ideas, embarrassed by Westminster's bedroom tax and rape clause, and flip flopping aboot like a very flip floppity dolphin, that's the Scottish Tories
		
Click to expand...

And....

Next time a political commentator asks Sturgeon a question ask yourself did her answer, answer the question. I watch quite a bit of the debates from Holyrood, and I must say Sturgeon is getting hammered by Ruth Davidson and Keiza Dugdale too easily on unfulfilled promises and lies about who is to blame for what. Sturgeon blaming the Tories for the Scottish NHS and Education when Holyrood controls the purse strings.

And then there's the (hilarious) 17th & 18th April. Sturgeon; "May doesn't have a mandate to be PM. She should call a General Election." The following day after an election is called, "what a ridiculous time to call an election."

I get you don't the Tories but if your alternative is to flag was for the SNP with their leadership and spending policies your doing Scotland a grave disservice.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2017)

You have really lost it now:rofl:........Sturgeon getting 'hammered' by Dugdale, the soon to be leader of Scotland's fourth most popular party.

That is seriously funny.


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You have really lost it now:rofl:........Sturgeon getting 'hammered' by Dugdale, the soon to be leader of Scotland's fourth most popular party.

That is seriously funny.
		
Click to expand...

If you're that blind you can't see the evidence from the Holyrood broadcasts I pity you. After all, it is actually highlighting Sturgeon's and the SNP's performance.


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## Val (Apr 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			If you're that blind you can't see the evidence from the Holyrood broadcasts I pity you. After all, it is actually highlighting Sturgeon's and the SNP's performance.
		
Click to expand...

Correct, some people can't see the wood for the trees


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## IanM (Apr 28, 2017)

It's the same down here in Wales...

If it's Bad - It's Westminster wot dun it!      If it's good - What a great job we're doing!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2017)

Val said:



			Correct, some people can't see the wood for the trees[/QUOTE

Taking independence out of the equation, what policies do Scottish Labour have that are better than those the SNP offer Scotland?
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2017)

Tee Hee

According to the Tory council election leaflet...........if the SNP 'get back to the day job' and improve schools and education.. the Tories will oppose them every step of the way.

Does anyone read these things before they are sent out.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tee Hee

According to the Tory council election leaflet...........if the SNP 'get back to the day job' and improve schools and education.. the Tories will oppose them every step of the way.

Does anyone read these things before they are sent out.
		
Click to expand...

Doh!  Why can't we be clever like what you am


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:





Val said:



			Correct, some people can't see the wood for the trees[/QUOTE

Taking independence out of the equation, what policies do Scottish Labour have that are better than those the SNP offer Scotland?
		
Click to expand...

The ability not to believe a word the First Minister says.

Oh! just a minute, even the SNP don't believe her, they know what shes doing.
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 29, 2017)

SocketRocket said:





Doon frae Troon said:



			The ability not to believe a word the First Minister says.

Oh! just a minute, even the SNP don't believe her, they know what shes doing.
		
Click to expand...

You have no ideas on Scottish Labour policies better than SNP ones then ?
Surprised as you are usually so full of political enlightenment.

Click to expand...


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:





SocketRocket said:



			You have no ideas on Scottish Labour policies better than SNP ones then ?
Surprised as you are usually so full of political enlightenment.

Click to expand...

Just had a good read of all 4 party websites. The SNP's is the slickest, with a number of metrics, closely followed by the LibDems. I'd put the Tories in 3rd with, disappointingly, Labour in 4th.

My concerns with the SNP's headline grabbing policies is who is going to fund them? Show me a sustainable budget and I'll vote for them... From a socialist perspective they are refreshing but if they are so good why have 152,000 student places disappeared in recent times?
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2017)

Independent sources say......
http://uk.businessinsider.com/scotl...the-rise-and-single-malts-are-the-star-2017-5
:lol:


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Independent sources say......
http://uk.businessinsider.com/scotl...the-rise-and-single-malts-are-the-star-2017-5
:lol:
		
Click to expand...

"The Scots have something to thank England for, with the decision   to exit the EU driving down the pound, and the sterlingâ€™s   weakness having significant impact on exports in the second half   of 2016, the SWA says. "


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2017)

17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.
		
Click to expand...

Any Scots involved


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.
		
Click to expand...

17,000, crikey! 

Must have been a big banner


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.
		
Click to expand...

From a conurbation of 2.8 million. No doubt some of the 17,000 travelled to Glasgow from afar.

So less than 1% of the voting public turned out, and that turns you on...!? Oh my sides!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2017)

Bingo again:whoo:

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11079/watch-live-all-under-one-banner-march-independence

Yes, they were 'all under one banner'.:lol: keep up.


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## User62651 (Jun 4, 2017)

I don't see or feel anything like the interest or appetite for Indyref2 just now that was present in 2014 for Indyref1, need to get this GE out the way and see what Brexit raises over the next 18 months or so before re-looking at Indyref2 or other options, don't mind Sturgeons stance about looking at the issue again then, Scottish parliament approved Indyref2 by democratic vote a couple of months ago anyway so it is already approved democratically before any new Holyrood elections in 2021, Mays 'now is not the time' seemed very wrong given she then called her own GE, regardless of that I don't think any marches in Glasgow at the moment are going to achieve very much of anything. Went completely under my radar anyway.


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## DCB (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting play with figures on this, Police say 15k, organisers say 17k and another Indyref2 state 25k on their fb page today.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bingo again:whoo:

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11079/watch-live-all-under-one-banner-march-independence


Yes, they were 'all under one banner'.:lol: keep up.
		
Click to expand...

Wooooosh!  Looks like thousands of banners to me unless they are all diddy people.


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2017)

DCB said:



			Interesting play with figures on this, Police say 15k, organisers say 17k and another Indyref2 state 25k on their fb page today.
		
Click to expand...

There's an answer to that but best not.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

DCB said:



			Interesting play with figures on this, Police say 15k, organisers say 17k and another Indyref2 state 25k on their fb page today.
		
Click to expand...

Don't spoil it for Doon. He's wetting himself and drooling over the pretty pictures


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Wooooosh!  Looks like thousands of banners to me unless they are all diddy people.
		
Click to expand...

:lol:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Don't spoil it for Doon. He's wetting himself and drooling over the pretty pictures
		
Click to expand...

Not really, just saying that 17,000 folk is a lot to attend a political rally.
You don't......we disagree.
No need for insults.

In your thought process........I wonder what you would say if 40,000 folk marched down The Mall in support of UKIP.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not really, just saying that 17,000 folk is a lot to attend a political rally.
You don't......we disagree.
No need for insults.

In your thought process........I wonder what you would say if 40,000 folk marched down The Mall in support of UKIP.
		
Click to expand...

That's thing about labelling. You think I'm a right wing, Daily Mail reading UKIP supporter. Whereas I think you troll for a reaction, then cry foul when you don't like the response.

In my 40 years of voting I've voted Tory once, mainly Labour until Brown and Miliband became leaders and my voted shifted to LibDems.

Having an adopted black sister I'm pretty sure you know what my views on UKIP are. I've experienced racism on a daily basis for years, and have the physical scars as proof.

And if you think my previous response was insulting you are way too precious.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not really, just saying that 17,000 folk is a lot to attend a political rally.
You don't......we disagree.
No need for insults.

In your thought process........*I wonder what you would say if 40,000 folk marched down The Mall in support of UKIP*.
		
Click to expand...

I would say "40,000 folk marched down the Mall in support of UKIP"


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## KenL (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.
		
Click to expand...

Far more important things going on right now FFS!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			That's thing about labelling. You think I'm a right wing, Daily Mail reading UKIP supporter. Whereas I think you troll for a reaction, then cry foul when you don't like the response.

In my 40 years of voting I've voted Tory once, mainly Labour until Brown and Miliband became leaders and my voted shifted to LibDems.

Having an adopted black sister I'm pretty sure you know what my views on UKIP are. I've experienced racism on a daily basis for years, and have the physical scars as proof.

And if you think my previous response was insulting you are way too precious.
		
Click to expand...

I did not label you, I asked for your opinion on a comparison based on your thought process
Which I did not get.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I did not label you, I asked for your opinion on a comparison based on your thought process
Which I did not get.
		
Click to expand...

You were just Stirring and Trolling as usual.  Why do you do it?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You were just Stirring and Trolling as usual.  Why do you do it?
		
Click to expand...

To try and get some honest replies from folk who use insults, put downs and avoidance [like your post] above instead of answers,


----------



## Imurg (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.
		
Click to expand...

To seek answers you first need to ask a question.....
What answer were you expecting to this statement?


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			17,000 Indyref supporters marching under one banner through Glasgow yesterday.
		
Click to expand...




Hobbit said:



			From a conurbation of 2.8 million. No doubt some of the 17,000 travelled to Glasgow from afar.

So less than 1% of the voting public turned out, and that turns you on...!? Oh my sides!
		
Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			Bingo again:whoo:

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11079/watch-live-all-under-one-banner-march-independence

Yes, they were 'all under one banner'.:lol: keep up.
		
Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			To try and get some honest replies from folk who use insults, put downs and avoidance [like your post] above instead of answers,
		
Click to expand...

Respectfully, maybe you need to consider your delivery. My initial response was to highlight how many in terms of a percentage of voters actually marched. I finished with oh my sides because I wouldn't get giddy over 1%. You came back with Bingo, which suggested to me you got a bite, and finished with keep up.

In respect of a single issue, emotive subject like independence I think it's a poor turn out. 

If you feel that posting up some of the more rabid Wings pieces means you're immune from a harsh response you're sadly mistaken. On the wider issue of independence itself, I can't understand why any country would be happy having another country make the global decisions for it. I also feel it's a little cynical to vote against independence purely for financial reasons.

If you had a more centre-ist party leading the independence campaign, and had better budgetary control, I'd be very tempted to grab it with both hands.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

A bit selective there........how about post #1382.
The one they have all avoided apart from one childish reply.

I did in fact get the number wrong in my rely to Hobbit........the correct one should have been [pro rata] 160,000 UKIP supporters marching down the Mall.


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A bit selective there........how about post #1382.
The one they have all avoided apart from one childish reply.

I did in fact get the number wrong in my rely to Hobbit........the correct one should have been [pro rata] 160,000 UKIP supporters marching down the Mall.
		
Click to expand...

I replied to #1382 in #1383, or did you miss that...nothing selective at all.

God help us if we do see 160,000 UKIP supporters marching down Whitehall.

Perhaps you, understandably, don't see a correlation but do you not think many English might view a nationalist party like the SNP similarly to UKIP? I used to until I moved up to Aberdeen. Now I think of them more like old Labour in their socialist views, and with a similar lack of financial control.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I replied to #1382 in #1383, or did you miss that...nothing selective at all.

*God help us if we do see 160,000 UKIP supporters marching down Whitehall.
*
Perhaps you, understandably, don't see a correlation but do you not think many English might view a nationalist party like the SNP similarly to UKIP? I used to until I moved up to Aberdeen. Now I think of them more like old Labour in their socialist views, and with a similar lack of financial control.
		
Click to expand...

Well - if there were more than 16 (more likely 6) in the audience of 400 at the SW Surrey hustings I attended on Friday evening they were keeping their support very hidden.


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## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2017)

Not sure why anyone would make such a big thing about a minority of the population who lost a democratic vote and are still in the minority now is causing such joy with our blogger. No different than BNP marches, not anything more than police overtime.


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - if there were more than 16 (more likely 6) in the audience of 400 at the SW Surrey hustings I attended on Friday evening they were keeping their support very hidden.
		
Click to expand...

I think many of them have returned to the Tory right wing now that they've achieved their aim.


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## User62651 (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I think many of them have returned to the Tory right wing now that they've achieved their aim.
		
Click to expand...

They'll kick off again if their version of Brexit is not delivered which it likely wont be as any concessions to EU at all from May (GE result pending) will be seen as a failure by UKIP, Farage making noises about leading party again in that circumstance. Round in circles we go.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I replied to #1382 in #1383, or did you miss that...nothing selective at all.

God help us if we do see 160,000 UKIP supporters marching down Whitehall.

Perhaps you, understandably, don't see a correlation but do you not think many English might view a nationalist party like the SNP similarly to UKIP? I used to until I moved up to Aberdeen. Now I think of them more like old Labour in their socialist views, and with a similar lack of financial control.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry that selective response was for Imurg.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2017)

So, how far back has this pushed Indy Ref 2? NS has accepted a second ref has had a significant impact on the results in Scotland and they went badly for the SNP. Will it disappear now until after Brexit has happened, at the earliest?


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## KenL (Jun 9, 2017)

Disappears for good hopefully!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

KenL said:



			Disappears for good hopefully!
		
Click to expand...

In Scotland SNP got more seats than the combined Unionist Labour/Tory/L.D. parties.
The Unionist Parties played the Westminster election as a Scottish Referendum and they lost. This was despite the Unionist parties fielding paper candidates in the seats where they were weak, some were just out of school and some barely able to speak.

Re Indyref 2 ..........all depends .....If Corbyn wins next months election I think Indyref2 will go on the back burner.
If May wins, it will be game on.


----------



## Val (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In Scotland SNP got more seats than the combined Unionist Labour/Tory/L.D. parties.
The Unionist Parties played the Westminster election as a Scottish Referendum and they lost. This was despite the Unionist parties fielding paper candidates in the seats where they were weak, some were just out of school and some barely able to speak.

Re Indyref 2 ..........all depends .....If Corbyn wins next months election I think Indyref2 will go on the back burner.
If May wins, it will be game on.
		
Click to expand...

Delusional


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

Val said:



			Delusional
		
Click to expand...

Factual though.........[well maybe not the 'next months election bit'.]

SLAB gained 6 seats from only 10,000 additional votes to take their total to 7 seats........and they are bouncing off the walls.
A few years ago they held 41 seats.

May and her awful government is in power because SLAB Blairite leaders told their voters to vote Tory in seats where SLAB were failing.
They should hang their heads in shame.


----------



## KenL (Jun 9, 2017)

Val said:



			Delusional
		
Click to expand...

Agreed!


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## ger147 (Jun 9, 2017)

Val said:



			Delusional
		
Click to expand...

IndyRef2 is dead #gameover


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## IanM (Jun 9, 2017)

If Brexit underpinned the GE south of the Border, which it might be... i.e. A close run thing.

Folk were saying that north of the Border the the GE was indicative of the desire for another IndyRef and independence.  

..in Nicola's own words.  "Scotland has spoken!"  Och, away wi ye!


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In Scotland SNP got more seats than the combined Unionist Labour/Tory/L.D. parties.
The Unionist Parties played the Westminster election as a Scottish Referendum and they lost. This was despite the Unionist parties fielding paper candidates in the seats where they were weak, some were just out of school and some barely able to speak.

Re Indyref 2 ..........all depends .....If Corbyn wins next months election I think Indyref2 will go on the back burner.
If May wins, it will be game on.
		
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Hahahahahahahahahahhaha........... breathe...............hahahahahahahahaha

SNP loses 40% of its Westminster MP's and it's a......... success?!?

Hahahahahahahahahaha......... breathe.......... hahahahahahahaha


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## chippa1909 (Jun 9, 2017)

Or won 60% of the seats...


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## the smiling assassin (Jun 9, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So, how far back has this pushed Indy Ref 2? NS has accepted a second ref has had a significant impact on the results in Scotland and they went badly for the SNP. Will it disappear now until after Brexit has happened, at the earliest?
		
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Dead for now - at least we'll get some peace for a bit...it's been a long time putting up with the Indytrash since the original referendum was announced back in 2013...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Don't think the First Minister will be too bothered that IndyRef2 seems to be off the itinerary for a few years.  It's what the polls were showing and SNP were I think deluded if they thought they could win an IndyRef2 in the coming 2-3 years - and in any case most people didn't really want one at the moment.

She'll be gutted at losing 24 seats but it was only ever going to be down - *none* of the three opposition parties could do worse than they did in the previous election - and sure enough they all did better - and in doing better a lot of voters returned to their traditional party, in large numbers in some places.  

That said 35/13/7/4 still shows the SNP as very strong when the opposition *total *representation in Westminster is 2/3rds of the SNP representation.

Not a good night for the SNP at all - but not absolutely calamitous.


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Or won 60% of the seats...
View attachment 22916

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Wow!

Dropping from 95% to 60% is a..... success?!?

Hahahahahahaha.........breathe.........hahahahahahahaha


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## User62651 (Jun 9, 2017)

I think the UK feels a little more united today. Indyref2 is driven by anti-Tory views not anti British views imo and May getting her wings clipped (despite todays utterly delusional soundbites) has helped Scots see that there can be common political ground with England in particular. Overall young people are engaged in politics and have shown they can make a difference, UKIP are wiped out, Labour are stronger than they were, politics in Scotland is more multi party again, all good.
Even though May is hanging on for now I think her personal weakening (rather than her party's) and Labour's relative success has been a good result for UK unity, which is fine with me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Wow!

Dropping from 95% to 60% is a..... success?!?

Hahahahahahaha.........breathe.........hahahahahahahaha
		
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But you know fine well that the 95% was a completely freak outcome - largely down to the complete uselessness of the opposition parties.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I think the UK feels a little more united today. Indyref2 is driven by anti-Tory views not anti British views imo and May getting her wings clipped (despite todays utterly delusional soundbites) has helped Scots see that there can be common political ground with England in particular. Overall young people are engaged in politics and have shown they can make a difference, UKIP are wiped out, Labour are stronger than they were, politics in Scotland is more multi party again, all good.
Even though May is hanging on for now I think her personal weakening (rather than her party's) and Labour's relative success has been a good result for UK unity, which is fine with me.
		
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Yup - with you on that...


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I think the UK feels a little more united today. Indyref2 is driven by anti-Tory views not anti British views imo and May getting her wings clipped (despite todays utterly delusional soundbites) has helped Scots see that there can be common political ground with England in particular. Overall young people are engaged in politics and have shown they can make a difference, UKIP are wiped out, Labour are stronger than they were, politics in Scotland is more multi party again, all good.
Even though May is hanging on for now I think her personal weakening (rather than her party's) and Labour's relative success has been a good result for UK unity, which is fine with me.
		
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Have a 'like.'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Have a 'like.'
		
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for that you can have one too :thup:


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## Val (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Factual though.........[well maybe not the 'next months election bit'.]

SLAB gained 6 seats from only 10,000 additional votes to take their total to 7 seats........and they are bouncing off the walls.
A few years ago they held 41 seats.

May and her awful government is in power because SLAB Blairite leaders told their voters to vote Tory in seats where SLAB were failing.
They should hang their heads in shame.
		
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Forget the fact that this was the SNP's second best performance in an election, that's the spin you'll get but facts are,

1 - The SNP lost 21 seats, a third of all they had.
2 - Almost half a million SNP voters turned their back on the SNP this time around
3 - Many SNP seats are now with very small majorities
4 - The people of Scotland had their say and the results are clear as day, more folk voted against the SNP than for
5 - Not a fact but an opinion, indyref2 is dead in the water due to the facts above

I said after the 2015 general election, the SNP was the trendy vote, many labour voters protested against the state of Scottish labour and voted SNP, many have drifted back but many have voted Tory as they can't stand Corbyn but are sick of the indyref2 talk coming from the SNP.

I would fully expect that the SNP will lose more seats at the next general election.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

Val said:



			Forget the fact that this was the SNP's second best performance in an election, that's the spin you'll get but facts are,

1 - The SNP lost 21 seats, a third of all they had.
2 - Almost half a million SNP voters turned their back on the SNP this time around
3 - Many SNP seats are now with very small majorities
4 - The people of Scotland had their say and the results are clear as day, more folk voted against the SNP than for
5 - Not a fact but an opinion, indyref2 is dead in the water due to the facts above

I said after the 2015 general election, the SNP was the trendy vote, many labour voters protested against the state of Scottish labour and voted SNP, many have drifted back but many have voted Tory as they can't stand Corbyn but are sick of the indyref2 talk coming from the SNP.

I would fully expect that the SNP will lose more seats at the next general election.
		
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Sorry to burst your wee bubble but I shall repeat what I said earlier.

The SNP had a bad night but they still won more seats than Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Lib Dems..........COMBINED.
Do you deny that ?

BTW Totally agree with Maxfli's Last Post


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Wow!

Dropping from 95% to 60% is a..... success?!?

Hahahahahahaha.........breathe.........hahahahahahahaha
		
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You seem to be the only one saying.......success.


BTW can we keep the HA Ha's to the naff football threads.......#tryingaweebittoohard


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## Val (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry to burst your wee bubble but I shall repeat what I said earlier.

The SNP had a bad night but they still won more seats than Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Lib Dems..........COMBINED.
Do you deny that ?

BTW Totally agree with Maxfli's Last Post
		
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No, do you deny any of mine? 

The SNP had a horrendous night, any party losing a third of their seats is in turmoil. My bubble is still inflated, yours however :rofl:


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## ger147 (Jun 9, 2017)

Val said:



			No, do you deny any of mine?

The SNP had a horrendous night, any party losing a third of their seats is in turmoil.
		
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Wee Nicola is finished too, she daren't utter the I word ever again.

She has essentially lost a 2nd Indy referendum without even getting the opportunity to have it, and if she tries to lead the SNP into the next Scottish Parliament elections she will lose.

Succession planning underway within the SNP IMO.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2017)

Indyref2 is on the back burner now possibly for no reason other than it's clear to the snp that in the current climate they'd lose it.

They know they've probably got one more chance before it gets too ridiculous to keep trying so they won't take a punt when they know won't win.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

Val said:



			No, do you deny any of mine? 

The SNP had a horrendous night, any party losing a third of their seats is in turmoil. My bubble is still inflated, yours however :rofl:
		
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My bubble is half foo.
We are agreed then.....other than 4/5 

You are making the lazy assumption that only folk who want Independence vote SNP and only folk who don't want Independence vote Labour/Tory.
Nobody really knows the answer to that one for sure.


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to be the only one saying.......success.


BTW can we keep the HA Ha's to the naff football threads.......#tryingaweebittoohard
		
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Hahahahahahahahahaha

You're the best joke I've seen all day

Hahahahaha


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahahahahahahaha

You're the best joke I've seen all day

Hahahahaha
		
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Me thinks Doom protesteth too much!


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## the smiling assassin (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My bubble is half foo.
We are agreed then.....other than 4/5 

You are making the lazy assumption that only folk who want Independence vote SNP and only folk who don't want Independence vote Labour/Tory.
Nobody really knows the answer to that one for sure.
		
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I miss it when it was just your other half who supported independence - old times TUC


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## chippa1909 (Jun 9, 2017)

I actually agree with Kaz. &#128559;
On the back burner for now, but never dead in the water.
I think us Yessers will now sit back, crack open a nice chilled bottle of Schadenfreude and watch the ridiculous brexit shambles develop and take it from there.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			I actually agree with Kaz. &#128559;
On the back burner for now, but never dead in the water.
I think us Yessers will now sit back, crack open a nice chilled bottle of Schadenfreude and watch the ridiculous brexit shambles develop and take it from there.
		
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Had to happen sooner or later.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

the smiling assassin said:



			I miss it when it was just your other half who supported independence - old times TUC
		
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She is raging at the SLAB folk who voted Tory, it's always funny when she swears in her posh English voice.:rofl:


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## the smiling assassin (Jun 9, 2017)

Every Yes2 sticker on show is just another nail in the Indy coffin for now.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She is raging at the SLAB folk who voted Tory, it's always funny when she swears in her posh English voice.:rofl:
		
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Hmm except the labour vote increased... I think she'll need to look a wee bit closer to home to find where the Tory voters came from...?


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## Val (Jun 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			I actually agree with Kaz. &#128559;
On the back burner for now, but never dead in the water.
I think us Yessers will now sit back, crack open a nice chilled bottle of Schadenfreude and watch the ridiculous brexit shambles develop and take it from there.
		
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It will happen, hopefully not for a generation though


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hmm except the labour vote increased... I think she'll need to look a wee bit closer to home to find where the Tory voters came from...?
		
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The Labour vote was boosted by the tactical votes of the Torys/Lib Dems.

You can't take much from the figures of the Tory/Labour vote in Scotland......lots of folk swopping sides to stop the SNP.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Labour vote was boosted by the tactical votes of the Torys/Lib Dems.

You can't take much from the figures of the Tory/Labour vote in Scotland......lots of folk swopping sides to stop the SNP.
		
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Did they tell you that when they voted or you just plucking rubbish out of the air


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Labour vote was boosted by the tactical votes of the Torys/Lib Dems.

You can't take much from the figures of the Tory/Labour vote in Scotland......lots of folk swopping sides to stop the SNP.
		
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How about all the SNP seats (seemed to be a few when i flicked through) where it was almost split 33/33/33, but the snp won with a couple of hundred. How does that fit the formula?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Labour vote was boosted by the tactical votes of the Torys/Lib Dems.

You can't take much from the figures of the Tory/Labour vote in Scotland......lots of folk swopping sides to stop the SNP.
		
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You can blow as much smoke as you like about tactical voting but cannot conceal the drop in the snp vote. 

Blaming labour for the tories is a cynical snp ploy and this, ironically, is a much bigger factor in the Tory revival.


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## ger147 (Jun 10, 2017)

Two figures:

SNP total number of votes in 2015 GE: 1,454,436
SNP total number of votes in 2017 GE:    977,569


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Labour vote was boosted by the tactical votes of the Torys/Lib Dems.

You can't take much from the figures of the Tory/Labour vote in Scotland......lots of folk swopping sides to stop the SNP.
		
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Makes you no better than TM when you look to blame others. 

Maybe take a look in the mirror before looking out the window.


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2017)

If Scottish Labour voters voted tactically for Tory, how was it Labour also increased their number of seats and overall vote share? How on earth does such a significant number of voters in any given constituency get together and vote x for different party than their first choice?

Truth? They don't. SNP lost support, end of. Weasel words can't hide the fact that the SNP haven't managed the Scottish economy at all well, spending way above their means and returned a failing education system and SNHS.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			If Scottish Labour voters voted tactically for Tory, how was it Labour also increased their number of seats and overall vote share? How on earth does such a significant number of voters in any given constituency get together and vote x for different party than their first choice?

Truth? They don't. SNP lost support, end of. Weasel words can't hide the fact that the SNP haven't managed the Scottish economy at all well, spending way above their means and returned a failing education system and SNHS.
		
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Spot on, you could argue SNP's failure to hold their seats has led to TM getting back in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Spot on, you could argue SNP's failure to hold their seats has led to TM getting back in.
		
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That is pretty obvious but perhaps I should have mentioned it.


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## Val (Jun 10, 2017)

Tactically or not, the SNP were destined to lose seats. If people had voted labour in some areas to get rid of the SNP they could have had lost more.

Airdrie and Shotts was held by the SNP by under 200 votes, the Torys seen their vote increase by 4000. This area as I mentioned previously has always been a traditional Labour safe seat.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

The Daily Express.....I know, massive supporter of the SNP.
Which makes it strange that there are no SNP seats that would benefit from a tactical vote.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...guide-SNP-face-losing-seats-21-constituencies

I lost my SNP MP in that lot.
Thankfully replaced by that rarest of beings.... a decent Tory.


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## ger147 (Jun 10, 2017)

The SNP lost a third of their votes and therefore 21 seats.

People who voted for the SNP last time voting for someone else this time is not tactical voting.

If I was the SNP I would be trying to find out why nearly 476,000 people voted SNP in 2015 but voted for other parties in 2017 rather than trying to call foul about tactical voting...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

ger147 said:



			The SNP lost a third of their votes and therefore 21 seats.

People who voted for the SNP last time voting for someone else this time is not tactical voting.

If I was the SNP I would be trying to find out why nearly 476,000 people voted SNP in 2015 but voted for other parties in 2017 rather than trying to call foul about tactical voting...
		
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I am not denying any of that [once again].......I was just making the very simple point that tactical voting against the SNP in Scotland by the four unionist parties has resulted in a Tory Government. 
I think at least two of then would not have wanted that outcome.


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## ger147 (Jun 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not denying any of that [once again].......I was just making the very simple point that tactical voting against the SNP in Scotland by the four unionist parties has resulted in a Tory Government. 
I think at least two of then would not have wanted that outcome.
		
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No it hasn't.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

ger147 said:



			No it hasn't.
		
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Have a look at Wings latest posting.
Read it with an open mind.
It makes some interesting observations, especially the Gordon and Edinburgh South voting patterns.
SNP finished either first or second in all seats, again interesting pattern against normal voting.
My seat had a very low Labour count against normal voting. On the pattern of the day I would have expected them to finish second to the Tories.
As Dodger says, it may be all smoke and mirrors but some of it looks.....strange.


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## ger147 (Jun 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have a look at Wings latest posting.
Read it with an open mind.
It makes some interesting observations, especially the Gordon and Edinburgh South voting patterns.
SNP finished either first or second in all seats, again interesting pattern against normal voting.
My seat had a very low Labour count against normal voting. On the pattern of the day I would have expected them to finish second to the Tories.
As Dodger says, it may be all smoke and mirrors but some of it looks.....strange.
		
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The facts are the SNP lost 21 seats because nearly 476 thousand people who voted for them in 2015 voted for someone else in 2017. A large chunk of that vote went to the Tories and that's why the Tories now have a stack of Scottish MP's.

You have already acknowledged the facts above are true and that has nothing to do with tactical voting.

So if I look at the point you were trying to make, the truth based on the facts are that the collapse of the SNP vote has enabled a Tory government to remain in power in Westminster, not tactical voting.


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## Val (Jun 10, 2017)

ger147 said:



			The facts are the SNP lost 21 seats because nearly 476 thousand people who voted for them in 2015 voted for someone else in 2017. A large chunk of that vote went to the Tories and that's why the Tories now have a stack of Scottish MP's.

You have already acknowledged the facts above are true and that has nothing to do with tactical voting.

So if I look at the point you were trying to make, the truth based on the facts are that the collapse of the SNP vote has enabled a Tory government to remain in power in Westminster, not tactical voting.
		
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100% spot on, only in Scotland it appears that if you don't vote for a particular party then you must be tactically voting


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## KenL (Jun 10, 2017)

A lot of the people who voted tory in scotland did it purely to give the snp a bloody nose.  They were not voting because they like the tories or their policies.

I voted Labour mainly to try to oust the SNP MP and it worked.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

KenL said:



			A lot of the people who voted tory in scotland did it purely to give the snp a bloody nose.  They were not voting because they like the tories or their policies.

I voted Labour mainly to try to oust the SNP MP and it worked.
		
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To see if it's genuine tactical voting you need to know who the people previously voted for, imo, it wouldn't make sense for previous Lab/Lib voters to vote Tory to get at the SNP


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## KenL (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			To see if it's genuine tactical voting you need to know who the people previously voted for, imo, it wouldn't make sense for previous Lab/Lib voters to vote Tory to get at the SNP
		
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That totally depends on how things were looking in each constituency.  East Lothian had a labour MP prior to the 2015 election (where a protest vote in my opinion netted SNP 50 odd seats).  I decided to vote Labour as they had a good local candidate.

So for me, tactical voting does not depend on who you have voted for in the past.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

KenL said:



			A lot of the people who voted tory in scotland did it purely to give the snp a bloody nose.  They were not voting because they like the tories or their policies.

I voted Labour mainly to try to oust the SNP MP and it worked.
		
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Thank you, I think there are quite a few thousand Scots Blairites with feeling pretty guilty right now.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

KenL said:



			That totally depends on how things were looking in each constituency.  East Lothian had a labour MP prior to the 2015 election (where a protest vote in my opinion netted SNP 50 odd seats).  I decided to vote Labour as they had a good local candidate.

So for me, tactical voting does not depend on who you have voted for in the past.
		
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There'll always be exceptions, but I can't believe many die hard tory/labour voters would vote for the opposite.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			There'll always be exceptions, but I can't believe many die hard tory/labour voters would vote for the opposite.
		
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Against the evil Snp:lol:
I can [with bells]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			There'll always be exceptions, but I can't believe many die hard tory/labour voters would vote for the opposite.
		
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East Renfrewshire constituency.

In the last election Tory voters were encouraged to vote Labour to keep the SNP out - they failed - I was told this by a local Tory councillor.  This election in that same constituency many Labour (unionist) voters would have voted Tory to unseat the SNP - and this time the tactical voting worked.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2017)

As previously mentioned, in 2015 the SNP got almost 1.5 million votes. This time they got less than 1 million. That's nothing to do with tactical voting. That's one third of people that voted for them last time not voting for them again this time.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2017)

*"He's behind you." 


*&#8203;Conspiracy theorists queue on the right please. Sorry but I don't believe you can get so many tactical voters.


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## Imurg (Jun 11, 2017)

What some people are failing to grasp is that, tactically or not, half a million people chose NOT to vote for the SNP....
If people and policies are good enough then you'll get the votes.
Tactical voting is a red herring - the SNP lost 1/3 or their vote because people didn't want to vote for them
It really is a simple as that..


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## ger147 (Jun 11, 2017)

Imurg said:



			What some people are failing to grasp is that, tactically or not, half a million people chose NOT to vote for the SNP....
If people and policies are good enough then you'll get the votes.
Tactical voting is a red herring - the SNP lost 1/3 or their vote because people didn't want to vote for them
It really is a simple as that..
		
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Exactly.

All this tactical voting tin foil hat nonsense is a red herring. They lost a third of their vote and therefore a stack of seats, simples...


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## ger147 (Jun 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			East Renfrewshire constituency.

In the last election Tory voters were encouraged to vote Labour to keep the SNP out - they failed - I was told this by a local Tory councillor.  This election in that same constituency many Labour (unionist) voters would have voted Tory to unseat the SNP - and this time the tactical voting worked.
		
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The SNP lost over 6,000 votes in East Renfrewshire and so lost the seat, simples.

And if you look at the number of votes they polled, they would have lost every single time with their number of votes since 1923.

So again, not tactical voting at all, just people not voting SNP this time who did so last time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2017)

Pretty astute summary of the SNP's failings by Craig Murray


https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/arch...adical-vision-not-just-managerial-competence/


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pretty astute summary of the SNP's failings by Craig Murray


https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/arch...adical-vision-not-just-managerial-competence/

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Some very insightful comments, although I'd argue that the SNP should have ran both the independence slant AND the managerial slant, not just independence as Murray suggests. To ignore the failings would have led to question as to why the SNP were hiding, akin to why Theresa went into hiding.

I do agree that the SNP has to be seen as something different from the run of the mill parties, or fear as suggested that they are labelled as Labour-lite.

The comment about being seen as a county council is unfair. Scottish politics is way bigger than that. And Murray was right in saying the SNP didn't promote that image well enough.

Is it time to bang the independence drum again? I actually feel that the SNP lost ground by not promoting it, and further damaged its credence by being viewed as losing so much dominance in almost every constituency.

The time to bang the drum will be when a poor Brexit deal is offered. That way the choice being tied to a diminished  UK outside the EU, or as a independent nation tied to a large trading bloc. Make the choice about economic security, i.e. the very thing the last vote hung on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2017)

I think Nicola judged the mood of Scotland quite well by keeping quiet on Independence during a Westminster election.
Of course this did not play well with the diehard SNP voters, who would have expected her to bang the drum.
It also played into the hands of the four Unionist parties who, as we all know, had nothing else to offer except 'don't vote for the SNP'.

As Murray said, Independence polls still held a high support for Independence during the debates.
Whither that will drop now will remain to see.
I actually think we just may be in for bit of a surprise.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Nicola judged the mood of Scotland quite well by keeping quiet on Independence during a Westminster election.
Of course this did not play well with the diehard SNP voters, who would have expected her to bang the drum.
It also played into the hands of the four Unionist parties who, as we all know, had nothing else to offer except 'don't vote for the SNP'.

As Murray said, Independence polls still held a high support for Independence during the debates.
Whither that will drop now will remain to see.
I actually think we just may be in for bit of a surprise.
		
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The polls I saw with a week to go had independence at 39% and 40%, depending on who you believe. (currently poll of polls sitting at 41%). 

If Nicola judged things quite well why almost 500k lost votes? She was way too defensive. 

Losing Angus Robertson, Mmm not overly fussed, but Alex Salmond performed magnificently at Westminster. 

Still a great majority but the trend from the local elections to the GE and the polls doesn't read good at all.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			The polls I saw with a week to go had independence at 39% and 40%, depending on who you believe. (currently poll of polls sitting at 41%). 

If Nicola judged things quite well why almost 500k lost votes? She was way too defensive. 

Losing Angus Robertson, Mmm not overly fussed, but Alex Salmond performed magnificently at Westminster. 

Still a great majority but the trend from the local elections to the GE and the polls doesn't read good at all.
		
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I think there is quite a strong percentage of natural [old] Labour/Soft Socialist voters in Scotland who support Independence.
Folk tend to just think support for Independence equates to an SNP vote. It does not.
If Corbyn ends up in control of the UK it is unlikely that Nicola will trigger Indyref2.

If we reach the Bingo situation of Trump, BoJo and the DUP running things then I think many rUK citizens will be asking to join Scotland.

Salmond is no great loss to me.
Angus and Clegg will be missed, decent guys.


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2017)

Imo the independence position is significantly weaker than a week ago. The 2014 Indyref was lost, the 2016 Holyrood election saw SNP weakened by losing a majority, relying on Greens for assistance, now last weeks GE losing 21 seats to Unionist parties when they hoped for at least 40 seats. Yes they are still strong but there seems to be a trend moving away from SNP support to Unionist parties after a SNP peak between 2011 Holyrood majority and 2014 indy referendum. Historically SNP support was around 25% and I think its heading back down well below 40% from a high of 45% 3 years ago.
Nowhere left for Nicola Sturgeon to take the arguments particularly if Brexit does end up softer and with SNP arguably taking their eye off the ball with the day to day running of devolved issues in Scotland. They need to show they can run things better here first or else it plays into opposition hands. Momentum is all with Labour and moreso Conservatives, less so LibDems.

Might have it all wrong and nothing's certain these days but that's how it feels to me. 

Brexit would have to go horribly wrong and perhaps Scotland's economic figures need to improve markedly through increased oil prices or some other means for another SNP surge. They are also a one-woman band with Sturgeon, apart from Swinney and my MSP Mike Russell, we rarely see or hear from anyone else. Without her they are a bit characterless. Think they miss Stewart Hosie. Folks have had enough of Salmond, was a decent first minster but too marmite  for a meaningful return. Robertson could be a future party leader, young enough for a comeback but not sure he has the common touch like Ruth Davidson undoubtedly has and Salmond used to have.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2017)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/..._referendum_or_lose_top_job__Sturgeon_warned/

The Herald does not seem to understand how politics in Scotland works..........scroll down to the vote:lol:
79% in favour of Indyref2.


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2017)

Survation/Daily Record from 5 days ago.... YES = 39% No = 53% 

The highest Yes in the last month = 45% (31st May IPSOS/Mori)  No = 50%

Panelbase survey 2nd June Yes = 41% No = 53%


The only time the Yes's were higher than the No's in the surveys was the 3 consecutive weeks following the Brexit vote.

Dream on, dream on...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Survation/Daily Record from 5 days ago.... YES = 39% No = 53% 

The highest Yes in the last month = 45% (31st May IPSOS/Mori)  No = 50%

Panelbase survey 2nd June Yes = 41% No = 53%


The only time the Yes's were higher than the No's in the surveys was the 3 consecutive weeks following the Brexit vote.

Dream on, dream on...
		
Click to expand...

Steady oan.........I was not being serious............just laughing at the stupidity of The Herald to post such nonsense and then add a poll at the end of it.
Links went right round the Pro Indy sites and came back and bit them.
I would bet that tomorrows Herald headline does not say 'Our online poll states 79% support for Indyref2


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Steady oan.........I was not being serious............just laughing at the stupidity of The Herald to post such nonsense and then add a poll at the end of it.
Links went right round the Pro Indy sites and came back and bit them.
I would bet that tomorrows Herald headline does not say 'Our online poll states 79% support for Indyref2 

Click to expand...

Neither was I. I think we've all seen enough polls in recent years/months/weeks to realise they are, at best, only a rough guide.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Neither was I. I think we've all seen enough polls in recent years/months/weeks to realise they are, at best, only a rough guide.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I don't know, Prof Curtis's exit poll and Survation national polling were both spot on.
Both received a lot of head shaking when revealed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2017)

Disgraceful scenes at Westminster today as Tory/Labour MP's walk straight in front of Ian Blackford whilst he is speaking.
You would not think that MP's would have to be lectured on simple basic manners.

Speaker gave them a right old telling off, bless him.


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