# How quickly should you get to 18 handicap after taking up the game?



## Snelly (Aug 3, 2015)

I was discussing this question with a friend of mine on Saturday.  How fast, given regular weekly games, should an average person get to a handicap of 18?

I am not talking about occasional players, society golfers, juniors, seniors, ladies or anyone with extenuating circumstances, just a normal bloke (although I would say the same applies for just about anyone if pushed).

Our shared view was that everyone should be able to do it within a year of starting the game properly, i.e. joining a golf club. You just need to be able to grasp the basics of the game at beginner level in order to play at this standard. 

Obviously, this conversation took place in the real world, but I mentioned to my friend at the time that saying something similar on a forum like this would invite a barrage of criticism and a plethora of excuses. 

He said it doesn't matter, we both know we are right. 18 should easily be doable in a year. I agreed. 

Reading the second thread on HC increases reminded me of this so I thought I would ask the question here.  Not trolling.  Just firmly believe that 18 handicap should be a very easy goal to achieve after a year of effort and application.  

Any thoughts?


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## williamalex1 (Aug 3, 2015)

With my current form it should take about 2 weeks.:smirk:


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## Hobbit (Aug 3, 2015)

I think your supposition is too general. There are golfers out there that will never reach 18, some of which have had lessons and play every week. The prime, perverse, example I know is a guy who was an international Lacrosse player for a number of years yet just couldn't get to grips with golf. Even 10yrs after starting to play a couple of times a week he rarely got much less than 26.

I agree that the majority of players, applying themselves properly, should be able to do it. But there'll always be exceptions. Think about it, how many kids did you play football with who never could hit a barn door yet the top striker in your team could knock hat tricks in for fun? That's your difference between Cat 1 and Cat 4. Some can, and some can't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2015)

Far too many variables within the game to have a generalisation like that 

I got to 18 within 6 months I know some that have never reached 18 , some that took 6 years some two years and that's even with regular playing and lessons 

Natural ability of a person will determine how long it takes and that's a hard thing to measure

And there is no right or wrong answer - there is just opinions


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## D4RK1 (Aug 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Far too many variables within the game to have a generalisation like that 

I got to 18 within 6 months I know some that have never reached 18 , some that took 6 years some two years and that's even with regular playing and lessons 

Natural ability of a person will determine how long it takes and that's a hard thing to measure

And there is no right or wrong answer - there is just opinions
		
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+1 to that.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 3, 2015)

I suppose it depends on what you man by 'a year of effort and application'. 

 If you have the time, resources and mind set to do it then I imagine most (but not all) reasonably competent golfers could get there or there abouts.  But as already noted some people just will not be able to get to that standard.  It's easy for a good golfer to say 'well I can do it' but some people are different and they are naturally better at some things than others.

Also motivation and mind set is vital.  You can't assume everyone is desperate to reduce their handicap and will put in the hours and practice needed.  Some people just play mostly for fun, they have families and jobs and they are fitting golf in in between these commitments.  Yes it's great if the handicap reduces and they always want to get better.  But they can have just as good a time shooting 95 in a bounce round with mates than they can shooting 85 in some serious comp playing with wannabe's pros. And those types will probably not get to 18 in a year, if they ever will.  Just because it is not the primary aim of them for playing.


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## turkish (Aug 3, 2015)

At 27.7 threads like this make me want to cry!!! I'm just at a year and have put in so much effort but I have definitely made a marked improvement. I fancy my chances that I'll be down to about 20 soon just not had much chances to play in a lot of medals.

Also need to point out the difficulty of the course you play will have a big impact. Played my mates new course last week- he's recently been giving a handicap of 21 but no better than me- beat him 5&4 and didn't even need the strokes tbh. front 9 was 44 which is equal to my best on my home course which is a lot trickier.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 3, 2015)

Well it took me 6 years to get from 26 to 18.4 and I am now on 18.7
It isn't through choice, I'd love to be lower, and I am still improving so there is every chance. 
One really good round that gets me a couple of shots off is all I need to get me to under 18 for quite a while.
Everyone is different , there is no rule of thumb as long as people try their best it doesn't matter what their handicap is.


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## garyinderry (Aug 3, 2015)

I would say a couple of years.   This is from watching a few people recently.  

One guy back home ha really started to put in the work. It won't be long to get down from 25. 

It really depends how much work is put in. If they actually try and implement what they are told. 

Difficulty of course is a factor no doubt.


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## delc (Aug 3, 2015)

Think from memory (it was a long time ago) that I got down to 12 within a year of starting to seriously play golf as a teenager.  Oddly enough that is still my handicap now, although I have been a bit lower in between!  :mmm:


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## Lambchops (Aug 3, 2015)

Started last year and got down to 20 - no lessons, no time at the range, just playing once a week. I suppose if I could be bothered to put the effort in, wasn't so busy at work, kid under 1 year old I could get lower but a round of golf is just a bit of time to myself for me


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## FairwayDodger (Aug 3, 2015)

I think a year is probably too quick - some will do it, undoubtedly, but from a standing start of never having played that's too fast to say that anyone should be able to do it. I'd say maybe a year getting the basics, getting properly "into" and understanding how to play before coming down quickly in year 2.

BTW, I don't think you should get a general exception to this just for being a "lady"!


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## Khamelion (Aug 3, 2015)

After a year of playing I put in three cards and got 17.1, two years later I'm now 20.6 and that is with regular weekly games, so talent, ability, time, determination all come into it, as does the persons mentality.


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## Slab (Aug 3, 2015)

I think youâ€™re wrong and right 

Like many things as a broad generalisation itâ€™s a fair enough claim, but a bit more than a stretch to claim it as true in the real world when applied to real people


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## KhalJimbo (Aug 3, 2015)

I started November last year, had some lessons beginning of this year. And jut put my last card in for handicap on Saturday, I'll be off 28 as my lowest card was 100. 

I was planning to have been off of 18 by having my lowest card as 90 but that just didn't happen. I so wanted to get a handicap of lower than 28 but I at least am proud that its a genuine 28 that I've been given. I feel I have had some massive improvements since I started in November from having scores of 127 to handing in cards of 100. My long game off the tee is usually whats kills my scores, I know I have low 90's in me if I could control my long game better. For example, 2 weeks ago just playing with a friend I was 5 off the tee on 2 holes (would have been Par on both of them) and had to drop twice which cost me around 10 strokes, since my card was 106, I should have have had around 96 for the entire game.

Expecting a child now in two weeks so playing on Saturday and Sunday this weekend, hopefully I can improve on my long game. 

I don't think it will take me long to get off of 18 once I've ironed out my long game, but from my experience as someone working full time, balancing 4 hours worth of commuting each day and only able to play on weekends, I would suggest it would take about 2 years to get off of 18.


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## el marko (Aug 3, 2015)

With some of the swings i've seen out there then id say years. It really is a rarity to walk round a golf course and see good golf swings.


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## matt71 (Aug 3, 2015)

been playing proper for about 3 years and off 22. not very good but have improved from 28 when I 1st started! I only play once a week due to offer issues and I think that is what is costing my handicap to get lower! 

When I do play (for fun) I can rock in with late 30's or early 40's stableford points but when I go in a comp my game is shocking and end up with late 20's or early 30's!

my friends say my handicap is not a true reflection to my ability but I disagree as I am unable to play to it when it matters 

oh like to add my stroke score is around low 90's most weeks and the odd high  80's which is nice


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## TheCaddie (Aug 3, 2015)

Time constraints for me are the big one. I get down the range once a week, and only from about February this year, have I started to play around once a week (mostly). I've had lessons, and continue to have lessons, and each tweak my Pro gives me will cost me a couple of rounds... which is a couple of weeks.... maybe longer. Similar to most, I definitely have 90-95 in me, without a doubt, maybe even lower. But I am just not playing enough atm to iron out the creases quickly enough. 

I am moving to Sevenoaks in September, and likely to be joining Knole Park.... I think that's when I will really focus on playing a lot and I will see the handicap come down.


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## Fish (Aug 3, 2015)

I don't know what the issue is, so what, I'm a cat4 (21.2) and just love playing golf with like minded people and sharing great company on the course, if their happy to look for my occasional stray ball, like yesterday, then great, if they don't because I'm judged and should be off 18 or lower after playing for 4yrs, then I simply won't look to play with those people, stuff 'em!  I think the later you come into the game the harder it can be to improve to certain levels or judgmental barometers!

If I don't reach my goals I won't beat myself up about it anymore, as long as I know I'm trying my best and enjoying myself and not having a negative effect on those playing with or around me, who cares if I'm off 19, 21, 24 or 28!

I won't win many things as an individual but I'm a great pairs or team player putting at least two 4 pointers and a handful of 3 points on a card per round, everyone of you low guys loves a Cat4 player when it suits in your team or BB pairing though!

No _plethora of excuses_ from me, I'm simply not consistent enough to put a total 18 holes of decent golf together at times, but I won't stop trying...


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## matt71 (Aug 3, 2015)

love that attitude Fish! need to take that more on-board myself as I do feel a bit down with my handicap and need to be more positive like you!


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## UlyssesSky (Aug 3, 2015)

I don't know what ways exist in the UK to reduce your handicap, but here in germany it's only through (stableford) tournaments, which means it's quite difficult to reduce your handicap fast because of technical reasons (additional to the game not being the easiest one ever invented.. ).

For every stableford point over 36 the hcp gets reduced by .5 for handicaps above 26.5, by .4 for handicaps between 26.4 and 18.5 and by .3 for handicaps of 18.4 to 11.5.

Even if your were constantly shooting 90 (+18) from the beginning (and scoring on the 'right' holes to maximise your stableford points, i.e. no double bogeys on holes you only get one shot), you would need to play at least 7 tournaments to get from 28 to 18.

Now if a handicap of 18 was a true representation of someones ability, he should be expected to shoot his handicap about 20% of the time (not 7 tournaments in a row), so it would probably take longer than just 7 tournaments.

 Plus you won't be shooting 90 from the beginning, as for the first few weeks your actual handicap will be much closer to 28, thus further limiting the amount and tempo of lowering your cap.


Generally I would say going from 28 to 18 in one year is possible, but can not be expected to happen. Maybe from young and fast learning players, but certainly not from the majority of golfers.


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## Hobbit (Aug 3, 2015)

Fish said:



			I don't know what the issue is, so what, I'm a cat4 (21.2) and just love playing golf with like minded people and sharing great company on the course, if their happy to look for my occasional stray ball, like yesterday, then great, if they don't because I'm judged and should be off 18 or lower after playing for 4yrs, then I simply won't look to play with those people, stuff 'em!  I think the later you come into the game the harder it can be to improve to certain levels or judgmental barometers!

If I don't reach my goals I won't beat myself up about it anymore, as long as I know I'm trying my best and enjoying myself and not having a negative effect on those playing with or around me, who cares if I'm off 19, 21, 24 or 28!

I won't win many things as an individual but I'm a great pairs or team player putting at least two 4 pointers and a handful of 3 points on a card per round, everyone of you low guys loves a Cat4 player when it suits in your team or BB pairing though!

No _plethora of excuses_ from me, I'm simply not consistent enough to put a total 18 holes of decent golf together at times, but I won't stop trying...
		
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Very well put Robin. I couldn't give a monkey's toss what you play off providing you're decent company. And I don't expect everyone's etiquette to be that of a long standing player either.

I was lucky, I started playing at 9 yrs old. By the time I reached mid teens, age, I could navigate around a course fine. Those that come into the game when they've stopped playing football, or when the kids have flown the nest don't have the same flexibility or time to practice.

Sadly, as Delc says, old age is a limiter too. Youngsters are knocking it way past me now...


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## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2015)

Snelly said:



			...
Our shared view was that everyone should be able to do it within a year of starting the game properly, i.e. joining a golf club. You just need to be able to grasp the basics of the game at beginner level in order to play at this standard. 

Obviously, this conversation took place in the real world, but I mentioned to my friend at the time that saying something similar on a forum like this would invite a barrage of criticism and a plethora of excuses. 

He said it doesn't matter, we both know we are right. 18 should easily be doable in a year. I agreed. 
...
		
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Close the thread now then! End of discussion. 

I'm with Hobbit and LP though. Far too many variables as to why (and when) folk take up the game and what their natural ability is.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 3, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			I don't know what ways exist in the UK to reduce your handicap, but here in germany it's only through (stableford) tournaments, which means it's quite difficult to reduce your handicap fast because of technical reasons (additional to the game not being the easiest one ever invented.. ).

For every stableford point over 36 the hcp gets reduced by .5 for handicaps above 26.5, by .4 for handicaps between 26.4 and 18.5 and by .3 for handicaps of 18.4 to 11.5.

Even if your were constantly shooting 90 (+18) from the beginning (and scoring on the 'right' holes to maximise your stableford points, i.e. no double bogeys on holes you only get one shot), you would need to play at least 7 tournaments to get from 28 to 18.

Now if a handicap of 18 was a true representation of someones ability, he should be expected to shoot his handicap about 20% of the time (not 7 tournaments in a row), so it would probably take longer than just 7 tournaments.

 Plus you won't be shooting 90 from the beginning, as for the first few weeks your actual handicap will be much closer to 28, thus further limiting the amount and tempo of lowering your cap.


Generally I would say going from 28 to 18 in one year is possible, but can not be expected to happen. Maybe from young and fast learning players, but certainly not from the majority of golfers.
		
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In practice it wouldn't take that long because of ESRS or handicap committee intervention under CONGU, but you make a good point.

On the other hand not everyone starts with 28!  My first handicap was 17 (managed a 90 in my firat week of playing) under a system that equated that to about 15 today.
It's also easier to get allocated 18 than play to it (because of the stableford adjustment and being assumed to be screened for the allocation calculation).

Just as a matter of interest we have just allocated someone 8 as their first ever handicap...not surprisingly we double checked their assertion that they hadn't been a member with a handicap anywhere previously! Note our course is 6600-7000yds depending on Tees used!


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## UlyssesSky (Aug 3, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			In practice it wouldn't take that long because of ESRS or handicap committee intervention under CONGU
		
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So, that seems to be one of the ways to reduce your handicap that exists in the UK but not in germany...

Actually had to google what ESRS is and am quite sure no such thing exists here.. And the only handicap committee intervention is the yearly handicap review, so no way to lower your handicap during a year other than playing tournaments (or EDS rounds).


And yes, not everyone (in the UK) starts with 28. 



I guess a different phrasing for the OP's question, that leaves hcp technicalities out, is: how long should/would it take someone to shoot/break 90 and how long would it take for someone to consistently play to that level?


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## dufferman (Aug 3, 2015)

I got to 18 just shy of a year after joining a club. I had been playing "nomadic" golf for 3 years or so before that. I got a 22 handicap when I joined, then steadily got it down to 18 (now 17!).

However, I have no aspirations of getting it lower. I wouldn't complain if I did get down to 16 or whatever, but my aim since I can remember playing golf was to break 90 on a regular basis. I often shoot 4 or 5 over my handicap so maybe I do need to get down to 15 or 14 to consistently break 90, but the idea of actively focussing on a 10 handicap is a bit off putting. Too much hard work and might take the fun out the game!


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## freddielong (Aug 3, 2015)

I don't think it's a given that everyone gets to 18 is it.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 3, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			And the only handicap committee intervention is the yearly handicap review, so no way to lower your handicap during a year other than playing tournaments (or EDS)...
		
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Section 3.16 of your handicap system manual covers the committees powers and responsibilities in this area - specifically 3.16.2.

They are the same as CONGU'S and if a player returned a score = handicap of 18 3, or 4, times in a row I would expect them to act!

However, I suspect that you are right and most wouldn't (which is exactly why ESRs were brought in!).

From next year (under CONGU) computer software is also required to flag other scoring patterns that suggest a mid year adjustment would be appropriate - both up and down.

Whether the EGA make any changes or not I have no insight into at the moment.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 3, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I don't think it's a given that everyone gets to 18 is it.
		
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No it isn't


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## FairwayDodger (Aug 3, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			So, that seems to be one of the ways to reduce your handicap that exists in the UK but not in germany...
		
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In the interests of completeness, I feel urged to point out that ESRs are available in England but not Scotland. Not sure about Wales or NI!


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## Oddsocks (Aug 3, 2015)

I don't see why two years max isn't doable 

My mate had 5 lessons to get the basics right and off 28 shot 30 points in his first round, he had never been in a bunker, in rough or on a putting green prior to that round and combined range sessions and lessons hadn't hit 1000 balls in total.

Bogey golf isn't that hard if you plot your way around, another pp has come from 28 to 21 in three months after taking his bad shots out and managing his way around the course, even if it means hybrid 7i 7i on par5's


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## ger147 (Aug 3, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			I don't know what ways exist in the UK to reduce your handicap, but here in germany it's only through (stableford) tournaments, which means it's quite difficult to reduce your handicap fast because of technical reasons (additional to the game not being the easiest one ever invented.. ).

For every stableford point over 36 the hcp gets reduced by .5 for handicaps above 26.5, by .4 for handicaps between 26.4 and 18.5 and by .3 for handicaps of 18.4 to 11.5.

Even if your were constantly shooting 90 (+18) from the beginning (and scoring on the 'right' holes to maximise your stableford points, i.e. no double bogeys on holes you only get one shot), you would need to play at least 7 tournaments to get from 28 to 18.

Now if a handicap of 18 was a true representation of someones ability, he should be expected to shoot his handicap about 20% of the time (not 7 tournaments in a row), so it would probably take longer than just 7 tournaments.

Plus you won't be shooting 90 from the beginning, as for the first few weeks your actual handicap will be much closer to 28, thus further limiting the amount and tempo of lowering your cap.


Generally I would say going from 28 to 18 in one year is possible, but can not be expected to happen. Maybe from young and fast learning players, but certainly not from the majority of golfers.
		
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From recent personal experience, I would have to go for 2 years as in year 1 I managed to get from 18 to 19 

Doing a wee bit better now but the handicap deffo seems to lag behind an imporvement in general play and scores e.g. if I shoot 4 under my current handicap my playing handicap will only reduce by 1 stroke, if I shoot 3 under my current handicap my playing handicap won't reduce at all.


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## UlyssesSky (Aug 3, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Section 3.16 of your handicap system manual covers the committees powers and responsibilities in this area - specifically 3.16.2.

They are the same as CONGU'S and if a player returned a score = handicap of 18 3, or 4, times in a row I would expect them to act!

However, I suspect that you are right and most wouldn't (which is exactly why ESRs were brought in!).
		
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The problem is that the rule is very vague. While it's clear that it's the committees obligation to act, the prerequisite for the committee to take action is "justified belief", that a players handicap doesn't reflect his real ability, which leaves quite some room for interpretation.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 3, 2015)

freddielong said:



			I don't think it's a given that everyone gets to 18 is it.
		
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I remember reading somewhere that the *average* handicap in the uk is about 18, so for every  scratch player, there are 2 x 28 cappers out there


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## Oddsocks (Aug 3, 2015)

Does that include women Phil


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## garyinderry (Aug 3, 2015)

Oddsocks said:



			I don't see why two years max isn't doable 

My mate had 5 lessons to get the basics right and off 28 shot 30 points in his first round, he had never been in a bunker, in rough or on a putting green prior to that round and combined range sessions and lessons hadn't hit 1000 balls in total.

Bogey golf isn't that hard if you plot your way around, another pp has come from 28 to 21 in three months after taking his bad shots out and managing his way around the course, even if it means hybrid 7i 7i on par5's
		
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Agreed.  Most times it is people trying to make regulation pars that causes them to not shoot below +18.

Playing most par 4s and 5s as three shots should lead to at the very least bogey golf if you making decent contact and half decent around the greens. 

Try to par short par 4s.
Three shot the rest and par 5s
Try and par the par 3s. 

Do this and  you won't be far off 18 if not below it.


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## ger147 (Aug 3, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Agreed. Most times it is people trying to make regulation pars that causes them to not shoot below +18.

Playing most par 4s and 5s as three shots should lead to at the very least bogey golf if you making decent contact and half decent around the greens. 

Try to par short par 4s.
Three shot the rest and par 5s
*Try and par the par 3s.* 

Do this and you won't be far off 18 if not below it.
		
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Depending on the Par 3's, you could end up with the same issues with trying to get Par 4's on longer Par 4's.

On 1 of the 2 courses we have at our place, we have 1 Par 3 at nigh on 200 yards off the whites with lots of trouble left of the green, and another that is 175 off the whites with trouble short left, short right, left of the green and long  - a real card wrecker.


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## garyinderry (Aug 3, 2015)

Obviously lay up at card wreaker par 3s. 

The system is malleable.  Even on longer par 4s. You can take a club that will sneak you on the front of the green in reg as long as there is no bunker front protecting it. Try this if they are at the side and take the chance on a long two putt.


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## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I remember reading somewhere that the *average* handicap in the uk is about 18, so for every  scratch player, there are 2 x 28 cappers out there
		
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I believe for those in the Congu system, it's more like 14-ish.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 3, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I remember reading somewhere that the *average* handicap in the uk is about 18, so for every  scratch player, there are 2 x 28 cappers out there
		
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ah statistics.......

in practice I'm happy to bet that at the majority of clubs the number of 28 handicap golfers exceeds the total number of cat 1 golfers! There are a huge number of clubs without a scratch golfer - and none that I can find the records for that don't have a 28


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## ger147 (Aug 3, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Obviously lay up at card wreaker par 3s. 

The system is malleable. Even on longer par 4s. You can take a club that will sneak you on the front of the green in reg as long as there is no bunker front protecting it. Try this if they are at the side and take the chance on a long two putt.
		
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On that particular Par 3 there is nowhere to lay up...
	


But I digress...

At my level, strategy largely isn't the issue any more, it's still inconsistent striking i.e. strip a driver down the middle then half-chunk an iron from the fairway, chunk one off the tee, poor contact on a lag putt leading to a 3 putt etc.

The other issue I'm working on is the wedges when it's less than a full shot.  Can get a nice crisp contact on a pitch shot, get the direction spot on but come up 25-30 feet short, same story for chips but still 7-10 feet away, so still lots of bogeys instead of pars.


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## turkish (Aug 3, 2015)

GaryinDerry what you say has been something I've been thinking about as missing short is usually far better than missing pin high or long as that's where the hazards tend to be (on my course anyway)

It's just so hard not to really go for GIR though when you know you can do it; albeit relatively inconsistently


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## garyinderry (Aug 3, 2015)

Even if u come up five yards shy if the green you can still get the putter on it to try and make a two putt nett bird. 

Danger taken out and bogey at worst.


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## garyinderry (Aug 3, 2015)

Surely there is some room to miss to the right Ger.


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## UlyssesSky (Aug 3, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Depending on the Par 3's, you could end up with  the same issues with trying to get Par 4's on longer Par 4's.

On 1 of the 2 courses we have at our place, we have 1 Par 3 at nigh on  200 yards off the whites with lots of trouble left of the green, and  another that is 175 off the whites with trouble short left, short right,  left of the green and long  - a real card wrecker.
		
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Or, you could not play the whites until you get better or at least don't have trouble hitting the par 3s in regulation?

I remember a golf club's website (can't remember which one) that suggested playing the yellows until you get down to a handicap off about 10 and only playing the back tees if you play off 4 or better...


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## turkish (Aug 3, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			Or, you could not play the whites until you get better or at least don't have trouble hitting the par 3s in regulation?

I remember a golf club's website (can't remember which one) that suggested playing the yellows until you get down to a handicap off about 10 and only playing the back tees if you play off 4 or better...
		
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Not really an option if you are playing in a medal though is it? 

I always practice from the yellows but a recent PP asked me why as he thinks better practicing from the one you will actually be scoring in on medals which seemed a fair point


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## ger147 (Aug 3, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Surely there is some room to miss to the right Ger.
		
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Water hazard hidden from view by the trees then deep rubbish/lost ball territory.  Only place to miss is just short of the green straight (no more than 10 yards) or just short to pin high right on the bank which runs down onto the green.  If you chunk one off that tee you're dead, if you go left you're dead and if you go right and don't get pin high, you're dead  And nowhere to lay up short.  Most folk at the club would take a 4 off you and happily walk to the next tee every time, a very tricky Par 3.


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## ger147 (Aug 3, 2015)

UlyssesSky said:



			Or, you could not play the whites until you get better or at least don't have trouble hitting the par 3s in regulation?

I remember a golf club's website (can't remember which one) that suggested playing the yellows until you get down to a handicap off about 10 and only playing the back tees if you play off 4 or better...
		
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The whites are the medal tees so every men's comp is played from the whites.


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## garyinderry (Aug 3, 2015)

Could you take another pic say 50 yards from the green.  Not so clear on my phone. 

Looks a puzzler. Must be a nightmare when the green is baked.


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## ger147 (Aug 3, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Could you take another pic say 50 yards from the green. Not so clear on my phone. 

Looks a puzzler. Must be a nightmare when the green is baked.
		
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Parkland course so greens rarely baked, can usually hold the green or just through the back if you can hit it, even with long irons or hybrids.

Just checked HowDidIDo stats for a previous comp - 6 birdies, 39 Pars, 46 Bogeys and 49 Double or worse, total 140 players.  That's about the norm for that hole.

I usually club up to play long but as the green slopes from front to back it makes the lag putt or chip very tricky too, but as I said a bogey feels like a Par on this hole.


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## Backache (Aug 3, 2015)

Snelly said:



			He said it doesn't matter, we both know we are right. 18 should easily be doable in a year. I agreed. 


Any thoughts?
		
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People agree that they are right about being abducted to be impregnated by extraterestials, it doesn't make it true however. You provide no evidence to support your assertion.

Furthermore your claims are non specific and unclear. You talk about both the average golfer and virtually any golfer. As sporting ability probably follows a roughly Gaussian distribution around 45% of golfers will be worse than the average golfer if we take the middle 10% as being the average. What the average golfer can achieve a considerable number of other golfers cannot given the same effort.
  Still further your starting point is unclear not many golfers start off as belonging to a club and playing a game a week. Is your starting point someone who has never swung a club or someone who has played peripatetically for a few years and now joined a club because they are enjoying the game and starting to take it more seriously? Golf for many people is a fairly slow learning curve and these two groups will have considerably different outcomes at one year given a game a week and some practice.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 3, 2015)

Some won't ever get there. Some will do it quickly but I'd argue does it really make a difference. As long as a player is enjoying his game, playing regularly in comps and supporting the club, what difference does it make?


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## chellie (Aug 3, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some won't ever get there. Some will do it quickly but I'd argue does it really make a difference. As long as a player is enjoying his game, playing regularly in comps and supporting the club, what difference does it make?
		
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Well, some would say you shouldn't be allowed on a course unless you've got an 18 handicap


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## Backache (Aug 3, 2015)

chellie said:



			Well, some would say you shouldn't be allowed on a course unless you've got an 18 handicap

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I would agree all these low handicap brigade should get off the course and leave it to us 18 handicappers who need the pratice.


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## Hobbit (Aug 3, 2015)

Backache said:



			I would agree all these low handicap brigade should get off the course and leave it to us 18 handicappers who need the pratice.
		
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You 18 h'cappers are never on the course anyway - too busy looking for your balls in the woods...:ears:


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## stevelev (Aug 3, 2015)

Snelly said:



			How fast, given regular weekly games?
		
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1. From picking up a club, playing less than 40 rounds because going away with family, very bad weather sometimes frozen, non qualifiers for several months.



Snelly said:



			18 handicap should be a very easy goal to achieve after a year of effort and application.
		
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2. Effort and application is completely different from just playing regularly. I would say Effort and application would be a few hours quality practise per week throughout the year,and several lessons to improve technique over the course of the year in question.

Both completely different levels of commitment and likely to give 2 different results. 

1. Probably  get down to around 22, 23 and stagnate without proper practise and direction. This is where a lot of us hackers fail. We do not commit to the practise or are willing to adopt what is taught and instead revert to what is comfortable.

2. By hanging on to submit 3 cards, take a few lessons to get the fundamentals right. Practise a few hours sticking only to what has been instructed and not getting into bad habits. Really focusing on each shot. Play each weekend no matter what the weather. 18 is achievable. 

Also a lot would be down to the time of the year people start. At many places with punishing rough if you start in April without regular practise meaning you miss many fairways your scoring will be hampered so handicap wont move as quick as you want. Then into winter poor weather.

If every golfer who took up the game started with a pack of lessons, with a pro who they could relate to, that gave instruction in a way that the pupil could absorb the training. Add to that regular practise and playing handicaps would probably be sub 20 for nearly everyone. But being stubborn and all knowing better very few are sensibly enough (me included) to do it the right way


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## Backache (Aug 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			You 18 h'cappers are never on the course anyway - too busy looking for your balls in the woods...:ears:
		
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On the course but taking the scenic route rather than taking chunks out of the mowed stuff.


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## Guvnor2013 (Aug 3, 2015)

There is a basic flaw with the original question as there is an assumption that 18 is achievable by everyone/anyone. The number 18 seems to have been selected at random (I appreciate it's bogey golf) but an equally valid question would be 'how long should it take an 18 handicapper to get to scratch?'  It seems obvious that the vast majority will never achieve this.

18 does, on the face of it, seem achievable unless you are struggling around 19/20 and going up by 0.1 each week.  Variables appear to be frequency of play/practice, natural ability, mental approach/application, willingness to forget the occasional rules breach and how open the handicap secretary is to bribery/blackmail.

My path to handicap reduction has been (a) take early retirement, (b) spend a chunk of cash on gear to ensure I don't give up too easy (c) join a golf club, (d) play 4-7 times per week.  This is not available to everyone (although I can't over-emphasise how over-rated work is!) I love this game and that helps enormously.


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## stevek1969 (Aug 3, 2015)

Why does it matter what handicap anyone is as long as they enjoy the game, the OP doesn't even have a handicap and has done what he's good at load the gun and let every one else fire it, no replies back from him, poor show


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## Slab (Aug 4, 2015)

Might the same logic for this generalisation be applied to any level of golfer though, i.e

_How quickly should you get to scratch handicap after reaching Cat 1 ?_

I mean how long have some of them been stuck there, a year, 5 years, 10!

We're only talking about picking up a single shot every 4-5 holes for goodness sake and its not like they're starting from novice level. These are already accomplished golfers with a proven ability to perform with card in hand

What was the advice earlier for the high handicappers, something like, on that tough par4 why not go 7I, 7I and two putts, easy peasy apparently!       

Maybe its just needs them to show a bit of application and effort


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## ScienceBoy (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't think you have to get down to any handicap. Lots of people's first handicaps are under 18, they are nothing special compared to someone who started over 18


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## Oddsocks (Aug 4, 2015)

I think the biggest thing stopping people is their ego.

200+ yards from the deck to hit GIR off 20+ is a 5/10% chance of success.  Play the shot in its percentages and handicaps tumble.  I didn't get to 8 by striking the ball like a single figure golfer, Christ there are mid 20's cappers who strike a much better ball.

I know my weakness's, know where is a safe miss and where isn't and play to it, we have 2 par 5's on each loop, and i don't go for any in 2, drive , mid iron, low iron leaves 2 putts for a par every time.  The missed on all are either into deep cabbage or at best pot bunkers that are deep sand leaving me fried eggs.  By hitting a mid iron 2nd shot I take every hazard out of play. Since not going for in 2 and now plotting my way around my scores have dropped considerably and more birdies have come. Also Considering these are all shot holes, that's 3-4 shots I steel back from the course which can be used elsewhere such as long par 4's or tricky par 3's with multi tier greens where 3 putts are common.

Murph once said that playing dreadful golf he still hit buffer off 9, and when you think about it if you can hit the ball where you want cat2 isn't that hard if you know your misses and where the danger is.

Try the traffic light system, know your red areas to stay the hell away from, know your green areas where you can score from and only bring the amber in if you really need to!

Anyone can hit a ball, but learning to score and play this wonderful game is a completely different skill.


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## garyinderry (Aug 4, 2015)

Great post oddsocks.  Could have wrote that myself. 

Knowing how to score is massive.   I played caddie for 9 holes for my 25 handicap mate. Got him round in bogey golf quite easily. Made him take a club that couldn't even reach a short par 3 but came up 5 yards short of putting surface.  It took bunkers that were in line with the green out of play and gave him a chance to two putt for par. He made bogey but that was already an improvement on a lot of other rounds.


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## MashieNiblick (Aug 4, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Great post oddsocks.  Could have wrote that myself. 

Knowing how to score is massive.   I played caddie for 9 holes for my 25 handicap mate. Got him round in bogey golf quite easily. Made him take a club that couldn't even reach a short par 3 but came up 5 yards short of putting surface.  It took bunkers that were in line with the green out of play and gave him a chance to two putt for par. He made bogey but that was already an improvement on a lot of other rounds.
		
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Agree!

Amazed how many times, from a similar position, a high handicap PP/FC will take on a much riskier shot that I would or than is really necessary. Perhaps because they get a lot of shots, and expect to have blow ups, the risk reward calculation is different. I remember a 1 h/c player telling me that whereas most people assume at that level you are playing aggressive birdie hunting golf, the opposite is usually true - playing carefully and strategically to make par and not waste any shots.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 4, 2015)

Oddsocks said:



			I think the biggest thing stopping people is their ego.

200+ yards from the deck to hit GIR off 20+ is a 5/10% chance of success.  Play the shot in its percentages and handicaps tumble.  I didn't get to 8 by striking the ball like a single figure golfer, Christ there are mid 20's cappers who strike a much better ball.

I know my weakness's, know where is a safe miss and where isn't and play to it, we have 2 par 5's on each loop, and i don't go for any in 2, drive , mid iron, low iron leaves 2 putts for a par every time.  The missed on all are either into deep cabbage or at best pot bunkers that are deep sand leaving me fried eggs.  By hitting a mid iron 2nd shot I take every hazard out of play. Since not going for in 2 and now plotting my way around my scores have dropped considerably and more birdies have come. Also Considering these are all shot holes, that's 3-4 shots I steel back from the course which can be used elsewhere such as long par 4's or tricky par 3's with multi tier greens where 3 putts are common.

Murph once said that playing dreadful golf he still hit buffer off 9, and when you think about it if you can hit the ball where you want cat2 isn't that hard if you know your misses and where the danger is.

Try the traffic light system, know your red areas to stay the hell away from, know your green areas where you can score from and only bring the amber in if you really need to!

Anyone can hit a ball, but learning to score and play this wonderful game is a completely different skill.
		
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I played the Hotckin once at Woodhall Spa and decided that going for the green in 2 on par 4s and 3 on par 5s was asking for trouble at my standard, as there were so many bunkers that I would inevitably land in. So I mostly laid up if bunkers were surrounding the greens. And guess what, I went round in less than I mostly do on very average 'easier' goat tracks where I am always trying to hit GIR.  You'd have thought I would have learned for that, bit of course I never do.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 4, 2015)

Makes a change for me to post something useful lol


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## lex! (Aug 4, 2015)

Oddsocks said:



			I think the biggest thing stopping people is their ego.

200+ yards from the deck to hit GIR off 20+ is a 5/10% chance of success.  Play the shot in its percentages and handicaps tumble.  I didn't get to 8 by striking the ball like a single figure golfer, Christ there are mid 20's cappers who strike a much better ball.

I know my weakness's, know where is a safe miss and where isn't and play to it, we have 2 par 5's on each loop, and i don't go for any in 2, drive , mid iron, low iron leaves 2 putts for a par every time.  The missed on all are either into deep cabbage or at best pot bunkers that are deep sand leaving me fried eggs.  By hitting a mid iron 2nd shot I take every hazard out of play. Since not going for in 2 and now plotting my way around my scores have dropped considerably and more birdies have come. Also Considering these are all shot holes, that's 3-4 shots I steel back from the course which can be used elsewhere such as long par 4's or tricky par 3's with multi tier greens where 3 putts are common.

Murph once said that playing dreadful golf he still hit buffer off 9, and when you think about it if you can hit the ball where you want cat2 isn't that hard if you know your misses and where the danger is.

Try the traffic light system, know your red areas to stay the hell away from, know your green areas where you can score from and only bring the amber in if you really need to!

Anyone can hit a ball, but learning to score and play this wonderful game is a completely different skill.
		
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Really good post. I am surprised, at my new club, by the number of older blokes who are sub 18, who play off 11,12,13 say, and just cannot get a ball round the course. Cannot get out of bunkers, and slice the driver off the tee time and again. (I wont mentioned dodgy score keeping). I wonder how they got sub 18 in the first place.


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## woody69 (Aug 4, 2015)

Threads like this just depress me. Golf is up there as one of the hardest things to do. The amount of variables that need to align within a microsecond during the journey taken by club face to ball at point of impact is massive. Then being able to repeat that time and time again to hit a golf ball is incredible. The fact people can get as good as they do is amazing, but as can be expected there are some people that will simply never get particularly good at it. It is like any past time / sport. It's why racing drivers can get around circuits quicker than the average person when all other factors are taken into account, or why some people are better at tennis, or snooker, or darts etc. etc. etc. Golf is hard and it is about the margins that separate a player. Simply saying, if you'd taken an iron off the tee you'd be in a better position now but your ego made you reach for the driver is perhaps a minute contributor but that same person (when we are talking players with handicap of +20) could quite easily top/fat that iron and be in a worse position. If they could consistently hit an iron they'd not be a 19+ handicap.

Setting aside all those variables the way handicap is initially set is quite arbitrary. Go out, play 3 rounds, remove any dbles and bang, that is your handicap. I played my mates course and had my best ever round. If I had submitted that card for my handicap I'd be off 17. Go back to my course and my best ever round at that course and the card I submit means I'm off 21. Much longer course, harder greens etc.

People all have different abilities. There are a few that could make better choices on the course to get close or lower than 18, I would agree, but the vast majority of people don't come close.


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## RollinThunder (Aug 4, 2015)

woody69 said:



			Setting aside all those variables the way  handicap is initially set is quite arbitrary. Go out, play 3 rounds,  remove any dbles and bang, that is your handicap. I played my mates  course and had my best ever round. If I had submitted that card for my  handicap I'd be off 17. Go back to my course and my best ever round at  that course and the card I submit means I'm off 21. Much longer course,  harder greens etc.
		
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That was the same with my old course.  It was longer, with faster, more sloped greens and generally more  difficult, so I struggled to break 100 and got a handicap of 24. My new  course is shorter, but thinner, and much more suited to my type of play,  so I can consistently go around in the 80s. I had my handicap  transferred, so I'm hopefully expecting some quick drops in my handicap  

No doubt some proper thinking and playing to your strengths  would knock a few shots off, such as laying-up rather than going for the glory of a 200 yard over water carry with a 3-wood. Natural sporting ability would certainly  come into play. Some people are just natural sportsmen who can play anything to a decent standard. Maybe the right coaching and lessons, and possibly playing with players of a higher standard would force you to up your game, rather than playing with a group of hackers. 

A fellow I was talking to was saying that a  teenager at his club has got down to scratch within one year of playing,  although I don't know how true it is. Another bloke was saying how it took 20 years of playing for him to get his first par!

Like said, the answer is pretty arbitrary. Some may get less than 18 as their first handicap, some may never reach 18. But I'd say with the right attitude, some natural ability and regular playing, possibly with some coaching, going from complete beginner to 18 could be possible in a year, maybe two at a slower pace.


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## kenny.macdonald85 (Aug 5, 2015)

Hi, my first post.

Im not a member at a club at the moment but looking to join for next year and trying different courses in my area.

I keep track of all my scores on the cards and compare them to last rounds etc if its a course ive played before.

Ive been out at least once a week for the past 2 months and am seeing them scores coming down from 117 to 102. Played 14 holes one day on a course with average hole of 5.6( was chuffed to bits and now wish i had finished the round ).

My aim to consitently hit under 95 before the end of the year.


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## delc (Aug 5, 2015)

lex! said:



			Really good post. I am surprised, at my new club, by the number of older blokes who are sub 18, who play off 11,12,13 say, and just cannot get a ball round the course. Cannot get out of bunkers, and slice the driver off the tee time and again. (I wont mentioned dodgy score keeping). I wonder how they got sub 18 in the first place.
		
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I am an older bloke who plays off 12. Recently actually got cut from 13 after a good round in a qualifier. I do not hit the ball as far as I used to, so have to rely on good course management and a half-reasonable short game to stay at this level. I normally hit a slight draw and am quite good at getting out of bunkers (most of the time anyway). I nearly always break 90 (and have broken 80 a few times), or score more than 30 Stableford points!


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## delc (Aug 5, 2015)

I have seen some statistics from the U.S. that show that about 67% of male golfers with active handicaps have handicaps of 18 or less, which also means that 33% are worse than that. The need for having an active handicap excludes the casual hackers who are not members of golf clubs. Also the average handicap is about 16 and only 1% of golfers are scratch or better. Of course the U.S. have a slightly different handicapping system to GB & I, but this sort of puts things into perspective.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 5, 2015)

delc said:



			I am an older bloke who plays off 12. Recently actually got cut from 13 after a good round in a qualifier. I do not hit the ball as far as I used to, so have to rely on good course management and a half-reasonable short game to stay at this level. I normally hit a slight draw and am quite good at getting out of bunkers (most of the time anyway). I nearly always break 90 (and have broken 80 a few times), or score more than 30 Stableford points! 

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I used to caddie for an ex footballer, he was 67, carried the driver 190-200 but the old goat hardly every missed a fairway.  He knew his limits and stil knocked it round the hardest course in our area to 10hc, this was prior to the course changing ownership where it now plays at its easiest.


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## patricks148 (Aug 5, 2015)

Oddsocks said:



			I used to caddie for an ex footballer, he was 67, carried the driver 190-200 but the old goat hardly every missed a fairway.  He knew his limits and stil knocked it round the hardest course in our area to 10hc, this was prior to the course changing ownership where it now plays at its easiest.
		
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one of the best golfers i know is almost 70 and still plays off 3, hits the driver about 200 yards and his handicap is at a course thats 6800 yards


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## Oddsocks (Aug 5, 2015)

Didn't know you were knocking 70 Patrick...... More importantly it's a bit weird blowing your own trumpet....


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## GeneralStore (Aug 5, 2015)

Interesting thread and always one that is going to get some people wound up. Its a sensitive topic for most people that have been trying to reduce their handicap and cannot seem to. 

Some great responses though, awesome post from Oddsocks! 

From personal experience I think if your sole purpose was to get a handicap of 18 then I think its achievable within one year, but here are what I think the reasons are that many do not:
1) Playing often enough, range doesnt really count unfortunately
2) Playing conservatively enough. Most want to play good golf, which usually means reaching par 4's in 2 etc...and sometimes the desire to play good golf and the skill set do not match up
3) Joining an easy enough course for handicap purposes. I have joined a course that I think is brutal and after a year of being a member there I think its even tougher
4) Practise short game and putting more

So to summarise, if all you wanted was an 18 handicap I think most could get it...just knock hybrid/mid-irons off the tee, avoid penalty shots/hazards/3 putts and you are pretty much there. 
But most of us dont want to play that kind of golf. Boring! Might as well take up chess for an adrenaline fix. 

The other issue to consider is that the point of knowing how to score versus hitting a ball on a range are completely and utterly different things. You cannot learn how to score on the range nor within 1 year, that takes a while I believe. To the people getting upset by this post, keep working, dont give up and if what you are doing isnt improving your handicap then do something different.


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## delc (Aug 5, 2015)

delc said:



			I have seen some statistics from the U.S. that show that about 67% of male golfers with active handicaps have handicaps of 18 or less, which also means that 33% are worse than that. The need for having an active handicap excludes the casual hackers who are not members of golf clubs. Also the average handicap is about 16 and only 1% of golfers are scratch or better. Of course the U.S. have a slightly different handicapping system to GB & I, but this sort of puts things into perspective.
		
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Putting it another way, if you can get down to 18 or less, you are an above average golfer, and some folk will never get that good, however much they practice and play. If you get down to single figures that puts you in the top 25% and scratch or better in the top 1%.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 5, 2015)

It depends surely on what a person wants. Are they happy to rock up once a week, never seeing a range, play with their mates and not worry if they don't make 25 points. If so, they're very unlikely to get to 18 and have no interest in doing so. Is their membership at a club or their green fee any less valid?


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## Oddsocks (Aug 5, 2015)

delc said:



			Putting it another way, if you can get down to 18 or less, you are an above average golfer, and some folk will never get that good, however much they practice and play. If you get down to single figures that puts you in the top 25% and scratch or better in the top 1%.
		
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Top 25% my arse! If I threw a stone at the floor at the moment I'd miss! :rofl:


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## virtuocity (Aug 5, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If so, they're very unlikely to get to 18 and have no interest in doing so. Is their membership at a club or their green fee any less valid?
		
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Lazy reply, but who suggested this?


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 5, 2015)

MashieNiblick said:



*Amazed how many times, from a similar position, a high handicap PP/FC will take on a much riskier shot that I would* or than is really necessary. Perhaps because they get a lot of shots, and expect to have blow ups, the risk reward calculation is different.
		
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Or possibly because the higher handicap player is playing the game to enjoy it more than the lower handicap player and really doesn't care too much about their handicap. On a Par 5 if I was faced with a risky 3 wood second shot that would get me on the green 20% of the time or 2 x 9 iron shots that would get me on the green 75% of the time I'd go for the 3 wood every time. 

I think a lot of people focus too much on their handicap and getting it as low as possible rather than the fact that for 99.9% of golfers we play the game for enjoyment and not because we are trying to make a living from it. On two consecutive holes today I was in the middle of the fairway with a 7 iron and PW in my hand. Both times I ended up in a greenside bunker. On one of the par 5's I hit a decent drive and decided to go for it with a 3 wood for my second shot. Absolutely nailed it and ended up on the green. 

In a few weeks time I will have forgotten the two shots that left me in the bunkers but will still remember the shot that left me an eagle putt and that is why I play this stupid game.


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## Bound by convention (Aug 5, 2015)

Perspective ... I have played golf (weekly, depending on the weather) for nearly 2 years, now.
I'm not a member of a club. I, with a couple of friends, hack round a (short) 9 hole course a couple of times on Sat mornings. It costs us a tenner each. I've been at the range maybe 8 or 9 times, and have yet to have a lesson.
Sometime we feel the need to play a "proper" course, and go across the road to the just-shy-of 7000 yds 18 hole version.
Over the 2 years of playing, I have birdied all of the holes on the 9 hole course (no par 5, and longest par 4 is just over 310 yds). But ... stick me on the "big" course and I can say goodbye to 6 or 7 (on occasion, more) balls, and a score that has always been in 3 figures!
Sometimes I can play a shot of which a professional would be proud. On other occasion, you'd think that I'd never held a club before!
Golf is a HARD game.
Sometimes when people get proficient at, well ... anything,really, they forget what it was like initially.
Now, it's not that I'm totally useless at sports. If that were the case, then it could well be seen as a heads-up as to my golfing ability.
I swam for school, I played football for school, I played table tennis for school. I competed on motorcycles to a reasonable level. I play squash in a couple of leagues (hand/eye co-ordination, right?), but damn, golf is a HARD game.
So, in closing, I really doubt that a handicap of 18 is attainable for everyone who pick up a golf club.
Did I mention that I think it's a difficult game? :funk::funk:

BBC


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## delc (Aug 6, 2015)

Bound by convention said:



			Perspective ... I have played golf (weekly, depending on the weather) for nearly 2 years, now.
I'm not a member of a club. I, with a couple of friends, hack round a (short) 9 hole course a couple of times on Sat mornings. It costs us a tenner each. I've been at the range maybe 8 or 9 times, and have yet to have a lesson.
Sometime we feel the need to play a "proper" course, and go across the road to the just-shy-of 7000 yds 18 hole version.
Over the 2 years of playing, I have birdied all of the holes on the 9 hole course (no par 5, and longest par 4 is just over 310 yds). But ... stick me on the "big" course and I can say goodbye to 6 or 7 (on occasion, more) balls, and a score that has always been in 3 figures!
Sometimes I can play a shot of which a professional would be proud. On other occasion, you'd think that I'd never held a club before!
Golf is a HARD game.
Sometimes when people get proficient at, well ... anything,really, they forget what it was like initially.
Now, it's not that I'm totally useless at sports. If that were the case, then it could well be seen as a heads-up as to my golfing ability.
I swam for school, I played football for school, I played table tennis for school. I competed on motorcycles to a reasonable level. I play squash in a couple of leagues (hand/eye co-ordination, right?), but damn, golf is a HARD game.
So, in closing, I really doubt that a handicap of 18 is attainable for everyone who pick up a golf club.
Did I mention that I think it's a difficult game? :funk::funk:

BBC
		
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Although you only have to hit a stationary ball in golf (the rules actually demand this), it does help if you are sporty and have good hand/eye co-ordination. I have also played football, tennis, table tennis, badminton, squash, snooker and cricket at various stages in my life, as well as doing a fair amount of cycling, which is good for leg strength.  I originally learned to play golf at night school, hitting plastic air balls in a school hall under the tutelage of a retired PGA professional, before I went anywhere near a real golf course. I believe this gave me a better start than trying to teach myself, as at least I learned some technique, and the importance of swinging the club rather than hitting at the ball.  My first actual foray onto a golf course produced a score of 54 for 9 holes, and I improved quite rapidly after that as I learned to putt and manage my game. Got good enough to play in the Midland Junior Open for a couple of years. My only regret is that I largely stopped playing when I went to University and then moved down to London for work reasons. At the time golf anywhere near London seemed impossibly expensive, plus you seemed to have to be related to Royalty and to have put your name on a waiting list at birth to have any chance of joining a golf club!  I only started playing again when I got too old to play football, and I managed to get membership of a club based at a pay and play course, and I had to be on a waiting list for the best part of a year even to join that! How times have changed! Most golf clubs will now welcome you with open arms as long as you can afford their membership fees!


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## Imurg (Aug 6, 2015)

I think a lot of people are forgetting the huge numbers of golfers who are not members of club so do not have a handicap. Some of these can play to a reasonable standard but many don't.
Add to that the "serial" high handicappers we all know. There are 3 Seniors at my club who played in the first competition I played in back in '93 - one of them even marked my first handicap card - they were all off a low 20's handicap then and guess what?
They're all off a low 20's handicap now
They play 2 or 3 times every week. They don't practice much but then they're playing for 12 hours a week so it must count for something...
They have good days and they'll win a division and get a cut but then play "normally" for a few weeks and go back up..these Guys have been playing for 30 years.
They will never make this mystical 18 handicap that defines a decent standard..
People shouldn't be judged on how good they are, just how good their company is.


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## delc (Aug 6, 2015)

Oddsocks said:



			Top 25% my arse! If I threw a stone at the floor at the moment I'd miss! :rofl:
		
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You could ask you Club Committee for a handicap revue!


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## Imurg (Aug 6, 2015)

delc said:



			You could ask you Club Committee for a handicap revue! 

Click to expand...

But they'd probably make a song and dance about it......

Ba dum
Tish!!


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## garyinderry (Aug 6, 2015)

I would remove those type of people from the stats imurg.

you have to want to improve to get down.  Simply Turing up and playing with no real desire to improve skews the stats of cam anyone reach 18.

These three old boys are typical of lot s of players. Happy enough to plod along with their high handicap as they can score reasonably well if they have a good day with the putter. Not much effort involved and generally enjoy their day and craic with their buddies. 

This is all well and and good but shouldn't be included in the numbers of unable to reach 18.   You have to want it.

This attitude was displayed by dufferman. Funny enough he plays off 18 but says himself he has no desire to get any lower. Says it may detract from.  His enjoyment.  You cannot include him in 'can anyone make it to single figures' as he said in his own words that he had no intention of trying to get there. 

'You have to want to get down'


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## Imurg (Aug 6, 2015)

But who's to say some of these guys don't want to be off 17..?
If you're playing qualifiers then your handicap, assuming you're not manipulating it, will be what it will be.
There's often a massive assumption that everyone is capable of playing to or below 18 and its simply not the case.
One of these guys I mentioned earlier has, to my knowledge, a lesson every few weeks and has done so for years. He's been hovering between 20 and 23 for 30 years.
Some people reach their pinnacle ( or TopFlite) much earlier than others and will never have the ability to get better regardless of whether they want to or not.


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## garyinderry (Aug 6, 2015)

That guy needs to sack his coach.  

You also said they don't practice much.  That tells me they are happy with their lot.


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## Slab (Aug 6, 2015)

Out of interest for those who think its doable for everyone, what's the limit?

Is 18 the magic cut off or is it lower, should 'everyone' be able to achieve a 16 handicap for example?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2015)

My first handicap was 16 - and in three months it was 13.  But then again I'd been playing the game for 13yrs or so before I decided to take it serious and get a handicap.  So did it take me 13yrs to get a handicap of 18 or better?  Handicap is only the formal measure of how well you can play the game.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 6, 2015)

At my first club Greenburn G.C. 1980 the maximum gents handicap they allowed was 18.

 They also had a waiting list and a joining fee.


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## garyinderry (Aug 6, 2015)

Slab said:



			Out of interest for those who think its doable for everyone, what's the limit?

Is 18 the magic cut off or is it lower, should 'everyone' be able to achieve a 16 handicap for example?
		
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I don't think there is a limit to how low people can get.

I do know that it isn't overly hard to play to an 18 handicap.  As hard as that it for some people to hear.   the main factor that holds many people over an 18 handicap is the short game.  I don't think there is many over 18 handicaps who can truly say they spend enough time on this aspect and have it to a level they are happy with. 

Next you need to look at where you are losing shots and stop doing it.  If that is losing drives off the tee then simply stop smashing the driver.  Start hitting the driver very easy at the range then start slowly upping the speed until you find an acceptable distance that you can also control and keep out of trouble 9 times out of 10. 

Often the cry comes. "even if we take a iron off the tee we can still duff that''.   if that is the case then you must simply go to the range or ask your coach to get you to a level where you can make consistent ball turf contact.  Duffs are a complete waste.  Direction isn't overly critical. Making the ball go in a certain direction to a general distance each time is the important aspect.

Bunkers. If you are regularly taking more than one shot to get out then you must spend time working on this. There are loads dotted around most courses. They eat shots of poor players. 

Strategy.  Often overlooked and seem as a boring way to play golf.  Taking the safe option and laying up is the way to get to 18. You have the shots so you may aswel use them.  Going for glory pars and birdies just mean you waste these shots in other places when you mess up.

Putting.  Can safe you loads of shots.  If you are regualry three putting then you are leaking shots.  Again, there is no short cut, you must practice to get better.

I dont prescribe to the notion that you can get to this level in one year.  Far from it in fact.  Usually because no one actually tells you this and you have to find out the hard way.  It can take quite a number for some people.

Ive been there. Ive stuck the ball out over the oob fence more times than enough. Ive bladed many a bunker shot. Ive had the shanks. 

Ive also stood a the side of greens for countless hours on my own practising chips till I was blue in the face. Ive gone to the range many a cold night trying to work out how to rid myself of a gigantic slice. It doesn't happen by accident and as I've previously posted, you have to want it.

If you can tick all these boxes and you truthfully can't play to 18 then you have my sympathies.


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## virtuocity (Aug 6, 2015)

Playing to 18 for me simply means hitting the ball before the ground every time, finding a one-way miss and sticking to it and clubbing correctly.  From my limited experience of playing with a lot of different people, the major barriers I see to achieving this are:

1.  Trying to hit the ball far too hard
2.  Contrived, weird backswings 
3.  Choosing a club that _sometimes_ gets you on the green


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## Slab (Aug 6, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I don't think there is a limit to how low people can get...........
		
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Haven't pasted it all but appreciate the detailed reply Gary

My question did have an edge of frustration in that its suggested earlier that thereâ€™s something wrong with the players application & effort if everyone isnâ€™t off 18 in a year but nonetheless it does still sting (even if the thread is a wind up) when youâ€™re so besotted with a game thatâ€™s both hugely rewarding and frustrating in equal measures that despite the huge commitment, effort, time & money spent on a hobby, the achievements (such as they are) are evaluated with an appraise of 'not really trying'


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## garyinderry (Aug 6, 2015)

18 in a year.  Doable but unlikely for most. 


So many factors at play.   from what I can see of friends who started playing it will take longer than a year.


Steep learning curve to begin with no doubt.  Then people usually have an Achilles heel or two to get past as well.

After a certain point improvement can be quite rapid.


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## RollinThunder (Aug 6, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			Playing to 18 for me simply means hitting the  ball before the ground every time, finding a one-way miss and sticking  to it and clubbing correctly.  From my limited experience of playing  with a lot of different people, the major barriers I see to achieving  this are:

1.  Trying to hit the ball far too hard
2.  Contrived, weird backswings 
3.  Choosing a club that _sometimes_ gets you on the green
		
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Another  thing in my opinion is the bad shot per hole, which seems to haunt  high-handicappers. Such as a very bad shot which leads to even more  difficult recovery shots, costing you 2, 3 or even 4 more shots. For instance, a  reasonable drive, reasonable iron to the edge of the green, then thinning a chip 50 yards into rough, 3 shots out of the rough onto the  green and a two-putt for an 8. Or slicing into the rough or a bunker, and taking multiple shots to even get onto the fairway again. Just turning that bad shot into a  reasonable one could cut numerous shots per hole, possibly even a dozen per  round. 

I think as a high-handicapper or beginner, you're better  off focussing on how to get the ball in the air, and in the general area  you want it to, so it's good to iron out tops, duffs and big slices. I  did that and got to around 24. Then as a mid/high-handicapper, start to  refine that accuracy, iron-out the terrible, hole-destroying shots, hone the short-game and get rid of three-putts. That got me down to 18 (I had the shanks, so it went back up again, granted ). To get less than 18, my target is to improve accuracy even more, and pretty much get rid of anything that would cost me more than 1 shot per hole, obviously


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## Snelly (Aug 10, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I don't think there is a limit to how low people can get.

I do know that it isn't overly hard to play to an 18 handicap.  As hard as that it for some people to hear.   the main factor that holds many people over an 18 handicap is the short game.  I don't think there is many over 18 handicaps who can truly say they spend enough time on this aspect and have it to a level they are happy with. 

Next you need to look at where you are losing shots and stop doing it.  If that is losing drives off the tee then simply stop smashing the driver.  Start hitting the driver very easy at the range then start slowly upping the speed until you find an acceptable distance that you can also control and keep out of trouble 9 times out of 10. 

Often the cry comes. "even if we take a iron off the tee we can still duff that''.   if that is the case then you must simply go to the range or ask your coach to get you to a level where you can make consistent ball turf contact.  Duffs are a complete waste.  Direction isn't overly critical. Making the ball go in a certain direction to a general distance each time is the important aspect.

Bunkers. If you are regularly taking more than one shot to get out then you must spend time working on this. There are loads dotted around most courses. They eat shots of poor players. 

Strategy.  Often overlooked and seem as a boring way to play golf.  Taking the safe option and laying up is the way to get to 18. You have the shots so you may aswel use them.  Going for glory pars and birdies just mean you waste these shots in other places when you mess up.

Putting.  Can safe you loads of shots.  If you are regualry three putting then you are leaking shots.  Again, there is no short cut, you must practice to get better.

I dont prescribe to the notion that you can get to this level in one year.  Far from it in fact.  Usually because no one actually tells you this and you have to find out the hard way.  It can take quite a number for some people.

Ive been there. Ive stuck the ball out over the oob fence more times than enough. Ive bladed many a bunker shot. Ive had the shanks. 

Ive also stood a the side of greens for countless hours on my own practising chips till I was blue in the face. Ive gone to the range many a cold night trying to work out how to rid myself of a gigantic slice. It doesn't happen by accident and as I've previously posted, you have to want it.

If you can tick all these boxes and you truthfully can't play to 18 then you have my sympathies.
		
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Great post.


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## Snelly (Aug 10, 2015)

Slab said:



			Out of interest for those who think its doable for everyone, what's the limit?

Is 18 the magic cut off or is it lower, should 'everyone' be able to achieve a 16 handicap for example?
		
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18 is a milestone as it is a shot a hole so a convenient context to set a question like this against.


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## Paul77 (Aug 10, 2015)

I started using Game Golf at the start of June 2015. After a number of rounds it allocated me a 29.5. I then worked my butt off playing, playing and repeating with lessons in between and now, it's giving me a 16.3. Whether this holds any weight in the world is another thread/issue but it's always nice to have a wee benchmark. 

I truly suspect that when it comes time to play my official three cards I'll fall apart and descend into a puddle of my own wee, but it's good to know that at the end of the day it's improving.


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## Jungle (Aug 10, 2015)

Started playing at the end of March 2013 and from 26 got down to 18 at the start of August 2014 (currently still there but I think thats a whole differant thread )

Started playing the game after losing interest in football and played on average between 1 and 2 times a week and taking three lessons at the start of 2013. 

That journey from 26 to 18 seems to have been a lot easier than my attempt this year to get down to 14. 

Golf is hard.


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## gregers (Aug 10, 2015)

been a member at my club for 3 years now but only been playing in our comps for 2 years,but been playing there for more then a decade.

started at 23,1st medal got cut to 21,3rd medal came in with a bandit score and got cut to 17,yep 4 shot loss.then won another 1 and went down to 15,then won a walkin and got down to 12.2,
but alas the last 5 comps ive entered ive gone back up,so now im on 12.9.


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## alexbrownmp (Aug 10, 2015)

when you first start and/or get your first handicap it should be whatever you are given based on 3 cards.

I would then say that regardless of what you do the max handicap you will play off for year 2 onwards will be 18. That gives a year to practice, get lessons and do your best, or just cruise at 18+ for a year knowing you will be 18 max from season 2.

Anyone fit and reasonably healthy should get no more than a shot a hole in comps. Have a higher h/cap for friendlies or mates but club comps you are 18 after year 1.


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## woody69 (Aug 10, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			Anyone fit and reasonably healthy should get no more than a shot a hole in comps. Have a higher h/cap for friendlies or mates but club comps you are 18 after year 1.
		
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I don't think you really understand what a handicap is.


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## Fish (Aug 11, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			when you first start and/or get your first handicap it should be whatever you are given based on 3 cards.

I would then say that regardless of what you do the max handicap you will play off for year 2 onwards will be 18. That gives a year to practice, get lessons and do your best, or just cruise at 18+ for a year knowing you will be 18 max from season 2.

Anyone fit and reasonably healthy should get no more than a shot a hole in comps. Have a higher h/cap for friendlies or mates but club comps you are 18 after year 1.
		
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:rofl:


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## Smiffy (Aug 11, 2015)

I've lost count of the number of higher handicappers (18 plus) that I have played with who hit the ball really well and have the ability to get to every single hole in regulation yet then mess up on the greens blaming their bad putting.
It's as if they think the hard work has been done by getting there and now they can relax.
They either leave the first one woefully short or tank it a mile past, step up without really thinking, and hit the next, safe in the knowledge that even if they four putt they are going to score some points.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 11, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			when you first start and/or get your first handicap it should be whatever you are given based on 3 cards.

I would then say that regardless of what you do the max handicap you will play off for year 2 onwards will be 18. That gives a year to practice, get lessons and do your best, or just cruise at 18+ for a year knowing you will be 18 max from season 2.

Anyone fit and reasonably healthy should get no more than a shot a hole in comps. Have a higher h/cap for friendlies or mates but club comps you are 18 after year 1.
		
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I'd go further and put up pictures of all the new members that have not got to 18 after a year on the noticeboard. So all the smug low handicappers can point and laugh at them. 

Also maybe get them to wear a bright orange pair of trousers to ensure they stick out and feel really welcome. Although I do take on board that certain golfers think bright lurid clothes are the height of fashion as it turns them from a boring middle aged man that wears beige slacks and shops at M&S into Rickie Fowler.


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## Smiffy (Aug 11, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd go further and put up pictures of all the new members that have not got to 18 after a year on the noticeboard. So all the smug low handicappers can point and laugh at them.
		
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Don't know whether this was a tongue in cheek post but I'd agree with it. And also put a couple of sets of darts nearby......


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## Snelly (Aug 11, 2015)

I played in an Am-Am last Friday and the maximum shot allowance was 18.  

This rule has been brought in because this annual event has been won by frankly ridiculous team scores over the past 4 years.  In other words, cheats with artificially high official handicaps or magic pencils have cleaned up the expensive first prizes. E.g. with a par points score of 76 (3 to count on two holes and two on the rest FYI), teams were winning with scores over 100.

I 100% support this new rule and with 132 players in the event, clearly this did not put anyone off playing. 

Additionally, when I started to play golf as a kid, the maximum handicap allowance for men was 18 and the game was far more popular then than now with big waiting lists for all clubs in the region. 

Stating that the maximum handicap should be 18 for men is not as stupid as it sounds to those who have played the game for a reasonably long time.

I still, admittedly somewhat controversially, feel that being 24 over or similar is a very poor standard of play and absolutely should not make you eligible to win a competition.


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## alexbrownmp (Aug 11, 2015)

woody69 said:



			I don't think you really understand what a handicap is.
		
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why dont you enlighten us?


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## alexbrownmp (Aug 11, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



*I'd go further and put up pictures of all the new members that have not got to 18 after a year on the noticeboard. So all the smug low handicappers can point and laugh at them.* 

Also maybe get them to wear a bright orange pair of trousers to ensure they stick out and feel really welcome. Although I do take on board that certain golfers think bright lurid clothes are the height of fashion as it turns them from a boring middle aged man that wears beige slacks and shops at M&S into Rickie Fowler.
		
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now thats just silly and a waste of time as all players will be off 18 after 1 year. I like your thinking about Orange trousers though, like green 'L' driver plates as you are new to that handicap


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## KhalJimbo (Aug 11, 2015)

Well, I've just been given my first handicap, 26 playing, 25.5 exact. Thought I would be off of 28 since my lowest card I handed in was 100 with one disastrous hole. Hoping to now be off of 18 in a year now.


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## daverollo (Aug 11, 2015)

KhalJimbo said:



			Well, I've just been given my first handicap, 26 playing, 25.5 exact. Thought I would be off of 28 since my lowest card I handed in was 100 with one disastrous hole. Hoping to now be off of 18 in a year now.
		
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Sounds about right Jimbo, I remember back in around 1991 being faced with a similar situation when I ended up with 22 when I thought I'd get 26.  Basically, the club, when calculating the handicap with disregard any score of more than 2 over on a hole.  Extract below from CONGU guidelines:

_"The Club will then adjust the returned scores, so that a lady never records more than 3 over par and a man never more than 2 over par on any individual hole. The cards are then assessed and the club allocates a CONGUÂ® handicap based on the amount the lowest score returned exceeds the Standard Scratch Score of the course played (after taking into account other factors it considers relevant)."_


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## KhalJimbo (Aug 11, 2015)

daverollo said:



			Sounds about right Jimbo, I remember back in around 1991 being faced with a similar situation when I ended up with 22 when I thought I'd get 26.  Basically, the club, when calculating the handicap with disregard any score of more than 2 over on a hole.  Extract below from CONGU guidelines:

_"The Club will then adjust the returned scores, so that a lady never records more than 3 over par and a man never more than 2 over par on any individual hole. The cards are then assessed and the club allocates a CONGUÂ® handicap based on the amount the lowest score returned exceeds the Standard Scratch Score of the course played (after taking into account other factors it considers relevant)."_

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Yeah I was quite please when I saw it was 26. Although I played our Saturday Swindle off 28 since HDID didn't have my profile set correctly, made the cut then to have my club handicap cut by 1 shot to 27. Need to go back and explain I got it wrong


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