# WHS



## Rlburnside (Jun 18, 2020)

Couple questions regarding whs, do assesers come and walk a course and assess slope/ index?  Or is it done another way?

I know this was to come into effect in November but will this be delayed until next year due to current circumstances?


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## rulefan (Jun 18, 2020)

Rating teams from the county walk and measure the course. Most have now been done but those that haven't by November will allotted values based on average courses and possibly) some local knowledge.

At the moment EG is still on target for November 2nd to go live with WHS.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Rating teams from the county walk and measure the course. Most have now been done but those that haven't by November will allotted values based on average courses and possibly) some local knowledge.

At the moment EG is still on target for November 2nd to go live with WHS.
		
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Thank you


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 20, 2020)

Like RF I think it is still a go for 2 November.

If your course hasn't been formally assessed yet then EG will give it a temporary rating and Slope Index per tee to allow the introduction to proceed. I'm assuming that allowing for social distancing they can now be assessed but it depends if EG are in work to complete the process.


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## rulefan (Jun 20, 2020)

Regardless if whether all courses are rated in time EG are still saying Nov 2nd is the date.


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## Wildboy370 (Jul 13, 2020)

Just a small question which may have been answered number of times so sorry if missed it.
 I understand under WHS we will have an Handicap index. Which then when we play courses from different tees we have a playing handicap based on the slope etc. 
But what happens at your home club ? If I have a playing index of 11 and my club is 135 off the whites does that mean in comps I play off 13 I think or 11?


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## rulefan (Jul 13, 2020)

The former. The Index is course independent. Your actual net scores are 'de-sloped' to give you a handicap index for a 'neutral/average' course (ie slope of 113). In effect reverse the calculation you did to get from 11 to 13.


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## jim8flog (Jul 14, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Just a small question which may have been answered number of times so sorry if missed it.
I understand under WHS we will have an Handicap index. Which then when we play courses from different tees we have a playing handicap based on the slope etc.
But what happens at your home club ? If I have a playing index of 11 and my club is 135 off the whites does that mean in comps I play off 13 I think or 11?
		
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The calculation is divide the slope rating by 113 multiply this by your handicap index and round to a whole number to give a course handicap.
This will then be further modified by the allowance for the format for the competition you are playing in eg singles stroke play is 95% rounded to a whole number 

Your handicap index will virtually always be a a number *with decimal points* as is the slope /113 calculation

As a rough guide 

135/113x11=13.14 rounded =13
95% of 13 = 12.35 give a playing handicap of 12 in singles stroke play

if your handicap index is (say) actually 11.4 the course handicap becomes 14 and playing 13


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## rulefan (Jul 14, 2020)

To clarify my post #7.
(The actual formulae are abbreviated to show the principle)

Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope / 113)
Score Differential = (113 /Slope) x (Gross Score - Course Rating)
Score Differentials are used to calculate your (8 from 20) Handicap Index


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## Old Skier (Jul 14, 2020)

Or just use the charts provided


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Or just use the charts provided
		
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+1000

It baffles me how so many people seem to be genuinely concerned about the move to the new system and not understanding it. Fine, for those who want to understand HOW it’s being calculated - fine, but it usually shows quickly that the question arises from a perspective of how will I know how many shots/what’ll my course handicap be. 

Look up chart —> raise finger —> follow chart til you find your handicap —> look how many shots you’re given —> play.


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## Imurg (Jul 14, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			+1000

It baffles me how so many people seem to be genuinely concerned about the move to the new system and not understanding it. Fine, for those who want to understand HOW it’s being calculated - fine, but it usually shows quickly that the question arises from a perspective of how will I know how many shots/what’ll my course handicap be.

Look up chart —> raise finger —> follow chart til you find your handicap —> look how many shots you’re given —> play..*Swear*..
		
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## IanMcC (Jul 14, 2020)

Has it been decided yet what handicap you need to include on the scorecard to avoid disqualification? Is it Handicap Index, Course Handicap or Playing Handicap? I asked at the online forums but nobody knew.


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## rulefan (Jul 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Or just use the charts provided
		
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The charts only tell half the story. How to get from an Index to a handicap used in play.
They don't tell you how the score you returned may affect your Index.

Don't get me wrong - I prefer the WHS method but with CONGU you could determine you new handicap immediately after the comp closed without having to remember your old comp results or do any fiddly calculations (except add 0.1 or deduct 0.x)


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## Old Skier (Jul 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The charts only tell half the story. How to get from an Index to a handicap used in play.
They don't tell you how the score you returned may affect your Index.

Don't get me wrong - I prefer the WHS method but with CONGU you could determine you new handicap immediately after the comp closed without having to remember your old comp results or do any fiddly calculations (except add 0.1 or deduct 0.x)
		
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Didn’t realise there was going to be any fiddly calculations the way the WHS team explained it to us.

Play comp - calculation done at midnight - wake up with new Index.

Just received the new “Tool Kit” from EG, not had a chance to look at it yet, hopefully once it is used to inform members it will clear things up.


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## rulefan (Jul 14, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Has it been decided yet what handicap you need to include on the scorecard to avoid disqualification? Is it Handicap Index, Course Handicap or Playing Handicap? I asked at the online forums but nobody knew.
		
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Playing Handicap. It's the only one that makes sense.

Edit: It's also the one that is used for Competition purposes. And the Rules of Golf are concerned with competition results not handicap systems.

Edit (29/7/2020): I have since been told by EG that Course Handicap must be on the card. The others are optional.


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## rulefan (Jul 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Didn’t realise there was going to be any fiddly calculations the way the WHS team explained it to us.

Play comp - calculation done at midnight - wake up with new Index.
		
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I agree. It's just that some like to work it out themselves as soon as they can.


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## Wildboy370 (Jul 15, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			+1000

It baffles me how so many people seem to be genuinely concerned about the move to the new system and not understanding it. Fine, for those who want to understand HOW it’s being calculated - fine, but it usually shows quickly that the question arises from a perspective of how will I know how many shots/what’ll my course handicap be.

Look up chart —> raise finger —> follow chart til you find your handicap —> look how many shots you’re given —> play.
		
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That all works well until you throw in the mix the Matchplay leagues. I was having discussion with the league secretary and he thinks it will be a nightmare next season. As he says as you move from one club to another to play it will all have to be worked out before hand. As the league is an 8-15 handicap at moment, it’s simple as you have that handicap. Next year it could be you think your playing off what ever at home course but got to an easier course and sifpdeenly you can’t play in the slot you thought you were in as you dropped X amount of shots. This means week by week the team is picked for the course you are playing at and not Always the best player at the time.


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## NearHull (Jul 15, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			That all works well until you throw in the mix the Matchplay leagues. I was having discussion with the league secretary and he thinks it will be a nightmare next season. As he says as you move from one club to another to play it will all have to be worked out before hand. As the league is an 8-15 handicap at moment, it’s simple as you have that handicap. Next year it could be you think your playing off what ever at home course but got to an easier course and sifpdeenly you can’t play in the slot you thought you were in as you dropped X amount of shots. This means week by week the team is picked for the course you are playing at and not Always the best player at the time.
		
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Could the league ‘splits‘ use Handicap Index?


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 15, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			That all works well until you throw in the mix the Matchplay leagues. I was having discussion with the league secretary and he thinks it will be a nightmare next season. As he says as you move from one club to another to play it will all have to be worked out before hand. As the league is an 8-15 handicap at moment, it’s simple as you have that handicap. Next year it could be you think your playing off what ever at home course but got to an easier course and sifpdeenly you can’t play in the slot you thought you were in as you dropped X amount of shots. This means week by week the team is picked for the course you are playing at and not Always the best player at the time.
		
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Sorry, I don’t understand. Your handicap is your handicap, no matter where you go. The only thing that will differ is how many shots that handicap will have on any given course. Surely the competition will be based on your handicap index, not the course handicap? If it is based on course handicap then sure, I see some sort of niggling issues but not more than a few clicks away on a computer to look up the slope chart from the club you’re to play. 

And also, if it works for the rest of the world, I’m sure it’ll work in the UK as well. Have never had or heard any issues about this back home in Sweden where this system has been in place since forever.


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## IanMcC (Jul 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Playing Handicap. It's the only one that makes sense.

Edit: It's also the one that is used for Competition purposes. And the Rules of Golf are concerned with competition results not handicap systems.
		
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Thanks rulefan. This is what I thought but Wales Golf could not confirm it.


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## bernix (Jul 15, 2020)

We are using slope and course rating in austria since (i think) 2000. on the scorecard it's always the playing handicap because that is important for competitions and for assignment of strokes awarded in stableford competitions.


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## jim8flog (Jul 15, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			+1000

It baffles me how so many people seem to be genuinely concerned about the move to the new system and not understanding it. Fine, for those who want to understand HOW it’s being calculated - fine, but it usually shows quickly that the question arises from a perspective of how will I know how many shots/what’ll my course handicap be.

Look up chart —> raise finger —> follow chart til you find your handicap —> look how many shots you’re given —> play.
		
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 You are missing a step!-  *before play* - work out your playing handicap according to what  format you will be playing.


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## jim8flog (Jul 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Playing Handicap. It's the only one that makes sense.

Edit: It's also the one that is used for Competition purposes. And the Rules of Golf are concerned with competition results not handicap systems.
		
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According to the workshop I went on the one thing that has to be on the card is your Handicap Index if a player gets the calculations wrong in a stroke play comp there is no penalty.


Handicap Index is the one thing that is already calculated for you and therefore should be correct.

The other thing that I see is that the computer will show you your Handicap Index which you verify as being correct on the card and not your course or playing handicap but I suppose we will have to wait until the systems are operational to see what is shown.


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## jim8flog (Jul 15, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Has it been decided yet what handicap you need to include on the scorecard to avoid disqualification? Is it Handicap Index, Course Handicap 
or Playing Handicap? I asked at the online forums but nobody knew.
		
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I differ to rulefans view

 According to the workshop I went on the correct Handicap Index has to be on the card and there is no penalty for any subsequent miscalculation of course or playing handicap.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 15, 2020)

Clear as mud then this new system....


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 15, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You are missing a step!-  *before play* - work out your playing handicap according to what  format you will be playing.
		
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Yeah? That is what was I was explaining there, no? 
You look up the playing handicap, based on your handicap index, on the chart, then play. What did I miss?


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## jim8flog (Jul 15, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah? That is what was I was explaining there, no?
You look up the playing handicap, based on your handicap index, on the chart, then play. What did I miss?
		
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What you look up on the charts is you course handicap

You then apply a further calculation to convert your course handicap to your playing handicap.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			??

We have a handicap index, the chart shows us what we play off that day based on the tees we play.
What extra calculation is there? I thought I had it sussed 🤔
		
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Non golfer asks you what you play off?

Give me ten minutes to consult the chart and work it out is the reply...


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## rulefan (Jul 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			??

We have a handicap index, the chart shows us what we play off that day based on the tees we play.
What extra calculation is there? I thought I had it sussed 🤔
		
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Any adjustment, eg as a result of playing off 95% the handicap allowance for individual stroke play


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## rulefan (Jul 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			So if I understand that, from 21 playing handicap, players start to lose shots?
		
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If your course handicap is X your playing handicap is 95% of X. Isn't 11 the break point?


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## jim8flog (Jul 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			??

We have a handicap index, the chart shows us what we play off that day based on the tees we play.
What extra calculation is there? I thought I had it sussed 🤔
		
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Individual stroke play 
95%
Individual Stableford 
95%
Four-ball stroke play
85%
Four-ball stableford
85%
Individual match play
100%
Four-ball match play
95%
Best 1 of 4 stroke play
75%
Best 2 of 4 stroke play
85%
Best 3 of 4 stroke play
100%
All 4 of 4 stroke play
100%
Foursomes
50% of combined team handicap
Greensomes
60% Low handicap + 40% high handicap
Scramble (4 players)
25%/20%/15%/10% from lowest to highest handicap
Scramble (2 players)
35% Low / 15% High

 +others


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## IainP (Jul 15, 2020)

At the moment I'm thinking - turn up, hit shots, keep record of gross score, enter score & let the computer do it's thing. Repeat.
😁


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## rulefan (Jul 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I really haven't got my head round this at all so what is the rationale for using different handicaps for stroke play and match play?
		
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You'll have to ask the statisticians


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## TheJezster (Jul 15, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Non golfer asks you what you play off?

Give me ten minutes to consult the chart and work it out is the reply...

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You'll just say what the Americans say, your index. People are confusing themselves over nothing. 

It's really not hard.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 16, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I differ to rulefans view

According to the workshop I went on the correct Handicap Index has to be on the card and there is no penalty for any subsequent miscalculation of course or playing handicap.
		
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I agree.

A bit like you have 2 boxes now (usually) for handicap and strokes received, I'm assuming the 2 will now be handicap index and playing handicap


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Playing Handicap. It's the only one that makes sense.

Edit: It's also the one that is used for Competition purposes. And the Rules of Golf are concerned with competition results not handicap systems.
		
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Disagree,  if staying consistent with CONGU,  then it would be the handicap Index. i.e. your handicap before any calculations for the course and/or competition.


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## rulefan (Jul 16, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Disagree,  if staying consistent with CONGU,  then it would be the handicap Index. i.e. your handicap before any calculations for the course and/or competition.
		
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How would that be consistent with CONGU. CONGU does not require your Exact Handicap currently but does require you to conform to the Rules of Golf.
The Rules of Golf require a figure that determines the number of strokes received


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## jim8flog (Jul 16, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I agree.

A bit like you have 2 boxes now (usually) for handicap and strokes received, I'm assuming the 2 will now be handicap index and playing handicap
		
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I got a bit annoyed with our manager at the workshop we were just about to place an order for new cards I pointed out we now need boxes for  3  - H.I., course and playing but he went ahead with order with just 2.


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## jim8flog (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How would that be consistent with CONGU. CONGU does not require your Exact Handicap currently but does require you to conform to the Rules of Golf.
The Rules of Golf require a figure that determines the number of strokes received
		
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 Come the the day (and the months beyond) I am sure there will be a complete guideline/interpretation issued by the R&A as it would appear there is a to a conflict between what was said  at the workshops and what some are saying is correct according the Rules of Golf.

Bit like a ball in the bunker at the moment R&A said one thing thing and CONGU wanted another.


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## rulefan (Jul 16, 2020)

I can now confirm it is the Course Handicap. Others are optional.


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## IanMcC (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I can now confirm it is the Course Handicap. Others are optional.
		
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If that is the case then it is the worst choice of the three, in my opinion.


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## rulefan (Jul 16, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Come the the day (and the months beyond) I am sure there will be a complete guideline/interpretation issued by the R&A as it would appear there is a to a conflict between what was said  at the workshops and what some are saying is correct according the Rules of Golf.

Bit like a ball in the bunker at the moment R&A said one thing thing and CONGU wanted another.
		
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The R&A only *suggested an example* which covered all of the territories in their area of jurisdiction, many of whom use 1cl for Preferred Lies.
Committee may use one of the following options:

Change the status of the bunkers to be part of the general area and declare all of them to be ground under repair.
Introduce preferred lies in bunkers, *for example* allowing a place in the bunker within one club-length not nearer to the hole than where the ball came to rest.
CONGU made a Rule which is consistent with the Rule for Preferred Lies in CONGU Qualifying Competitions.


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## rulefan (Jul 16, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			If that is the case then it is the worst choice of the three, in my opinion.
		
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Why? Index tells you nothing about strokes received. Arguably Playing might be better but it means the player may have to do different calculations depending on the form of play.
Also Playing is not used in the calculation of Score Differential - important in "Supplementary Scores" and any non-computerised club or other body around the world.
Remember WHS is primarily about handicaps not competitions.


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## IanMcC (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why? Index tells you nothing about strokes received. Arguably Playing might be better but it means the player may have to do different calculations depending on the form of play.
		
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Handicap Index is the one constant in a player's mind. If someone asks your handicap in conversation you will quote your HI. There are arguments for this to be the one required.
Playing Handicap is the number is shots you actually receive on the day, and there are massive arguments for this figure to be the one actually required.
Course Handicap can be derived erroneously with an incorrect calculation from HI, and also leaves room for error calculating PH.
I will find it difficult to DQ anyone who has made an effort to put any of the numbers in any of the 3 boxes, at least in the early months.


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## Old Skier (Jul 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Our club has just publicised the WHS Tool Kit.
Looks like 48 pages of fun 😳😳😳
		
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Recieved ours and trying to decide whether to just send it out to everyone and let them have a headache or try and go through it and make some sense out of it and give an abridged version but as a non payed volunteer I might opt for the former.  For individual comps for years I have said just put your handicap in and record gross scores, forget about the sums.  All this % of handicap nonsense is just going to turn some of the "that's my handicap" brigade right off especially as gongu pushed for years that playing of your actual handicap in individual comps was statistically the only fair way.  Seems they have gone down the governments route and only use the stats that suit them for ease?


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## rulefan (Jul 16, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Handicap Index is the one constant in a player's mind. If someone asks your handicap in conversation you will quote your HI. There are arguments for this to be the one required.
Playing Handicap is the number is shots you actually receive on the day, and there are massive arguments for this figure to be the one actually required.
Course Handicap can be derived erroneously with an incorrect calculation from HI, and also leaves room for error calculating PH.
I will find it difficult to DQ anyone who has made an effort to put any of the numbers in any of the 3 boxes, at least in the early months.
		
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If many millions around the world (including those from the USA ) have been able to cope for many years now (ie prior to WHS), I'm sure it won't take long for the UK to catch on.


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## yandabrown (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why? Index tells you nothing about strokes received. Arguably Playing might be better but it means the player may have to do different calculations depending on the form of play.
Also Playing is not used in the calculation of Score Differential - important in "Supplementary Scores" and any non-computerised club or other body around the world.
*Remember WHS is primarily about handicaps not competitions*.
		
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But what is a handicap for if not competitive golf?


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## rulefan (Jul 16, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			But what is a handicap for if not competitive golf?
		
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A simple measure of your ability?


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How would that be consistent with CONGU. CONGU does not require your Exact Handicap currently but does require you to conform to the Rules of Golf.
The Rules of Golf require a figure that determines the number of strokes received
		
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No it does not, it requires your CONGU handicap.  In singles strokeplay that equates to your strokes received,  but that has not always been the case and in other formats (4ball, foursomes) it does not.


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## Old Skier (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I can now confirm it is the Course Handicap. Others are optional.
		
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Not according to the WHS toolkit just sent out, in FAQ,s it says Handicap Index.


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## IanMcC (Jul 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not according to the WHS toolkit just sent out, in FAQ,s it says Handicap Index.
		
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Are there any working hyperlinks to this toolkit yet?


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## IanMcC (Jul 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If many millions around the world (including those from the USA ) have been able to cope for many years now (ie prior to WHS), I'm sure it won't take long for the UK to catch on.
		
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If many millions around the world are coping, and WHS is live for millions of golfers, and it is supposed to be a Unified System, why can I not get a definitive answer as to what handicap is required on the card?


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## Old Skier (Jul 16, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Are there any working hyperlinks to this toolkit yet?
		
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All the ones I tried worked i haven’t tried them all yet.


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## Old Skier (Jul 16, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			If many millions around the world are coping, and WHS is live for millions of golfers, and it is supposed to be a Unified System, why can I not get a definitive answer as to what handicap is required on the card?
		
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as stated, it’s in the FAQs


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## IanMcC (Jul 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			All the ones I tried worked i haven’t tried them all yet.
		
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Could you provide a working hyperlink here, please?


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## Old Skier (Jul 16, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Could you provide a working hyperlink here, please?
		
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The Toolkit has been sent to all clubs who are supposed to chuck it out to members. Not wishing to be to “funny handshake“ over this, there are some areas that are for committees and although our club will more than likely send it out to all out members I would rather leave it for your club to decide who gets what. Sorry.


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## IanMcC (Jul 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The Toolkit has been sent to all clubs who are supposed to chuck it out to members. Not wishing to be to “funny handshake“ over this, there are some areas that are for committees and although our club will more than likely send it out to all out members I would rather leave it for your club to decide who gets what. Sorry.
		
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Thanks a lot. You obviously have no idea what a hyperlink is.


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## Old Skier (Jul 16, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Thanks a lot. You obviously have no idea what a hyperlink is.
		
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Bugger I knew those years in IT was wasted. You obviously need to join a club and you can get all the info you Need

https://www.doorhandlecompany.co.uk...GzZRavNdmDpF0l5DG0Pam1hSCyQ7zjbIaAkxeEALw_wcB


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## rulefan (Jul 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not according to the WHS toolkit just sent out, in FAQ,s it says Handicap Index.
		
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Are you reading the same FAQ as me?

*Q: *Do I enter competitions using my Handicap Index or my Course Handicap? 
*A:* Competition entry should be based on your handicap index. This will be clarified in the terms of competition. 

If not, what is the FAQ you refer to?

If so, it doesn't mean the HI is the one required on the card.


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are you reading the same FAQ as me?

*Q: *Do I enter competitions using my Handicap Index or my Course Handicap?
*A:* Competition entry should be based on your handicap index. This will be clarified in the terms of competition.

If not, what is the FAQ you refer to?

If so, it doesn't mean the HI is the one required on the card.
		
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Re read it now and see where your coming from.

One of the other ones has surprised me:

Q:  When playing other courses can I submit a score card to my home club?
A:  Yes – you can record all pre-registered scores that follow the rules of golf and are
authorised formats of play.

My understanding was that the card would be entered at the course where you played.  Has this changed.


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## rulefan (Jul 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			My understanding was that the card would be entered at the course where you played.  Has this changed.
		
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I don't think so. I can't remember seeing a reference to it before.


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## TheJezster (Jul 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are you reading the same FAQ as me?

*Q: *Do I enter competitions using my Handicap Index or my Course Handicap?
*A:* Competition entry should be based on your handicap index. This will be clarified in the terms of competition.

If not, what is the FAQ you refer to?

If so, it doesn't mean the HI is the one required on the card.
		
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Perhaps I'm missing something here, but that says it IS based on the handicap index!! 

It therefore stands to reason that, that's what you enter on your card.


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2020)

TheJezster said:



			Perhaps I'm missing something here, but that says it IS based on the handicap index!!

It therefore stands to reason that, that's what you enter on your card.
		
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A lot of those responsible (many are volunteers) for trying to implement WHS are wading through the bible. It’s quite a read and I’m sure someone will come up eventually with the definitive answer.


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 17, 2020)

TheJezster said:



			Perhaps I'm missing something here, but that says it IS based on the handicap index!!

It therefore stands to reason that, that's what you enter on your card.
		
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What I was thinking as well. Read it over and over to see what I was missing, but I cannot see how that in any way is something that is up for interpretation.


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 17, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			What I was thinking as well. Read it over and over to see what I was missing, but I cannot see how that in any way is something that is up for interpretation.
		
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Re-read it once more now and see. HI to enter comp, not necessarily what is put on card. Got it.


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## rulefan (Jul 17, 2020)

TheJezster said:



			Perhaps I'm missing something here, but that says it IS based on the handicap index!!

It therefore stands to reason that, that's what you enter on your card.
		
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"Based on" simply means that that it is fundamental to determining the Course Handicap (ie it is the start point of the formula).

Where did you see any words re the card?

Regardless, that is the advice I have from England Golf.


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## jim8flog (Jul 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			One of the other ones has surprised me:

Q:  When playing other courses can I submit a score card to my home club?
A:  Yes – you can record all pre-registered scores that follow the rules of golf and are
authorised formats of play.

My understanding was that the card would be entered at the course where you played.  Has this changed.
		
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My understanding is that it has not changed. You must follow the rules for supplementary scores at the course where you are playing and that club then submits the score to the CDH in the normal fashion. The CDH system then notifies an away score to the home club.


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## rulefan (Jul 17, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			My understanding is that it has not changed. You must follow the rules for supplementary scores at the course where you are playing and that club then submits the score to the CDH in the normal fashion. The CDH system then notifies an away score to the home club.
		
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That makes sense as the played course details must be available in the software to enable a score differential to be sent to and any Index change to be calculated by the WHS cloud.


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## IanMcC (Jul 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The Toolkit has been sent to all clubs who are supposed to chuck it out to members. Not wishing to be to “funny handshake“ over this, there are some areas that are for committees and although our club will more than likely send it out to all out members I would rather leave it for your club to decide who gets what. Sorry.
		
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https://www.englandgolf.org/download/world-handicap-system-toolkit/ 

Not a great day for Old Skier as his little secret is now out in the open. Never mind, eh!!


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## IanMcC (Jul 18, 2020)

Couple of thoughts on the Toolkit after first glance.

1. I expected a Rules of Handicapping 2020 booklet suitable for GB&I to be included in this toolkit. The USGA toolkit included the USGA Rules of Handicapping booklet. When can we expect to see that, I wonder?
2. I find it hilarious that the Playing Handicap Allowances Table is 'not to be shared with golfers'. How exactly do they play a Pairs Matchplay then? Just guess, maybe? Possibly Old Skier had a hand in this one. 
3. Still no definitive answer on what you need on the scorecard to avoid DQ regarding handicap, although its obviously not Playing Handicap.
4. The text and picture layout is all a bit busy, and does not make an easy read.


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## Old Skier (Jul 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



https://www.englandgolf.org/download/world-handicap-system-toolkit/

Not a great day for Old Skier as his little secret is now out in the open. Never mind, eh!!
		
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Whatever floats your boat. It's no secret never was, it appears your club are happy for you to have it.

Congrats on your new found IT skills

PS had a great day actually.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2020)

Bit of a debate in our four ball yesterday on WHS qualifying rounds.  One of our number had been told by our golf manager that our Sat Roll Up score will count as a ‘qualifying’ Round towards our handicap index as it is a competition.  Now the other three said that surely couldn’t be the case as roll up rounds are friendly capers much of the time with gentle distracting banter and various lengths gimmes and pickups throughout.  How then can such a round count?

More to the point - we don’t _want_ roll up rounds to count. We want them to ultimately not matter - and as soon as you make a round ’qualifying’ you immediately slow up pace of play and much of the ‘nonsense’ fun goes out of the round.

Could it be because, due to limited tee times at the moment, and a batch being reserved for the roll up - we have had to set up the roll up on our system as if it were a formal competition - which it isn’t. But our system might see it as such and so include scores for our Handicap Index?


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## rulefan (Jul 19, 2020)

To be a Qualifier the round has to be formally pre-declared by the player. It it isn't, it isn't.
That is the situation under current CONGU and (IMO) future WHS regulations.

PS. I assume you are playing singles strokeplay or stableford. Not Fourball or a match of some sort.

However "_various lengths gimmes and pickups throughout_ " would seem to preclude such scores anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			To be a Qualifier the round has to be formally pre-declared by the player. It it isn't, it isn't.
That is the situation under current CONGU and (IMO) future WHS regulations.

PS. I assume you are playing singles strokeplay or stableford. Not Fourball or a match of some sort.

However "_various lengths gimmes and pickups throughout_ " would seem to preclude such scores anyway.
		
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The roll up competition is singles stableford played in four ball groups; at the same time in our group we usually pair up to have a little 4BBB match.  The implication seems to be that the roll up is a competition and all competition rounds by definition are qualifiers, and so by entering the roll up we are implicitly pre-declaring our round to be a qualifier.  That is how the club seems to be interpreting it.

Pick ups and gimmes would just result in a NR for a hole and the round - but wouldn’t stop it being counted in my 20 Round moving window.


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## IainP (Jul 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			....

PS. I assume you are playing singles strokeplay or stableford.
....
		
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I _thought _I'd been educated by this part of the forum that stableford was (a form of) strokeplay 🤷‍♂

It's tricky to keep up 🙂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2020)

IainP said:



			I _thought _I'd been educated by this part of the forum that stableford was (a form of) strokeplay 🤷‍♂

It's tricky to keep up 🙂
		
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We score our strokeplay using stableford points 👍 I guess that that’s something closer to the precise way of talking about stableford 😘

That aside - our clubs current interpretation seems against the spirit of what is being sought from WBS. We have to be able to play non-qualifying roll up/swindle comps.


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## rulefan (Jul 19, 2020)

IainP said:



			I _thought _I'd been educated by this part of the forum that stableford was (a form of) strokeplay 🤷‍♂
		
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You are quite correct but in the context of this question I was trying to clarify the mention of "..._pickups throughout_ ", as _pickups _are legitimate in stableford. 
Perhaps I should have used the word _medal?_


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## rulefan (Jul 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We score our strokeplay using stableford points 👍 I guess that that’s something closer to the precise way of talking about stableford 😘

That aside - our clubs current interpretation seems against the spirit of what is being sought from WBS. We have to be able to play non-qualifying roll up/swindle comps.
		
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Is your club using this interpretation for current CONGU rounds? This is certainly not permitted. However, there is some ambiguity in WHS which I am trying to get sorted out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Is your club using this interpretation for current CONGU rounds? This is certainly not permitted. However, there is some ambiguity in WHS which I am trying to get sorted out.
		
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At the moment our roll ups aren’t counted as qualifiers, but if I play in the roll up and want my round to count as a supplementary then I register it beforehand as normal and one of the group marks a card for me.  I cannot be given any putts - the others can - but not me. And if we are playing a little 4BBB match at the same time then I can’t be advised by my 4BBB match partner.

This issue is coming out of WHS.  The club current interpretation of a roll up being a qualifying comp under WHS  would kill the roll up as a group competition.

My comment relating to stableford was simply how you can score your strokeplay using stableford points. As you’d expect we don’t do that for medal rounds.


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## 3offTheTee (Jul 19, 2020)

Quick question re decimal points and rounding up/ down. If I get the exact/correct terminology wrong apologies but trust the experts will understand.

My handicap index equates  to 18.8 (19) and I go to a Course with a slope rating of 133.

Would my my initial calculation 18.8 x133/113 OR 19x133/113 to calculate my Course Handicap.

What  I need to know please when the decimal and whole numbers are used?

Perhaps  if somebody could continue the above example for a Medal round(95%) it would be helpful and appreciated.

Many thanks


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## rulefan (Jul 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Quick question re decimal points and rounding up/ down. If I get the exact/correct terminology wrong apologies but trust the experts will understand.

My handicap index equates  to 18.8 (19) and I go to a Course with a slope rating of 133.

Would my my initial calculation 18.8 x133/113 OR 19x133/113 to calculate my Course Handicap.

What  I need to know please when the decimal and whole numbers are used?

Perhaps  if somebody could continue the above example for a Medal round(95%) it would be helpful and appreciated.

Many thanks
		
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Use your exact Handicap Index (ie 18.8)


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## rulefan (Jul 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At the moment our roll ups aren’t counted as qualifiers, but if I play in the roll up and want my round to count as a supplementary then I register it beforehand as normal and one of the group marks a card for me.  I cannot be given any putts - the others can - but not me. And if we are playing a little 4BBB match at the same time then I can’t be advised by my 4BBB match partner.

This issue is coming out of WHS.  The club current interpretation of a roll up being a qualifying comp under WHS  would kill the roll up as a group competition.

My comment relating to stableford was simply how you can score your strokeplay using stableford points. As you’d expect we don’t do that for medal rounds.
		
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As I said, there is some ambiguity in the words relating to the committee's authority relating to general play 'competitions'. I'm hoping it will be resolved shortly.


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## TheJezster (Jul 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At the moment our roll ups aren’t counted as qualifiers, but if I play in the roll up and want my round to count as a supplementary then I register it beforehand as normal and one of the group marks a card for me.  I cannot be given any putts - the others can - but not me. And if we are playing a little 4BBB match at the same time then I can’t be advised by my 4BBB match partner.

This issue is coming out of WHS.  The club current interpretation of a roll up being a qualifying comp under WHS  would kill the roll up as a group competition.

My comment relating to stableford was simply how you can score your strokeplay using stableford points. As you’d expect we don’t do that for medal rounds.
		
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As I understand it, it'll be exactly the same. So if you want to enter your round for handicap, you declare it beforehand. If you don't, then it's not a handicap round.


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2020)

I


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit of a debate in our four ball yesterday on WHS qualifying rounds.  One of our number had been told by our golf manager that our Sat Roll Up score will count as a ‘qualifying’ Round towards our handicap index as it is a competition.  Now the other three said that surely couldn’t be the case as roll up rounds are friendly capers much of the time with gentle distracting banter and various lengths gimmes and pickups throughout.  How then can such a round count?

More to the point - we don’t _want_ roll up rounds to count. We want them to ultimately not matter - and as soon as you make a round ’qualifying’ you immediately slow up pace of play and much of the ‘nonsense’ fun goes out of the round.

Could it be because, due to limited tee times at the moment, and a batch being reserved for the roll up - we have had to set up the roll up on our system as if it were a formal competition - which it isn’t. But our system might see it as such and so include scores for our Handicap Index?
		
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We looked at this closely because we have a group who have a big roll up on a Friday we’re a few always moaned that they never had time to play in qualifying comps. After a discussion with the roll up organising team we have agreed that the last roll up of the month would be an official club qualifying  comp run correctly. Nobody wants to stop social fun gold and the compromise has been accepted.


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## rulefan (Jul 19, 2020)

@Old Skier
Much like our Seniors who play socially on a Monday. But the first in every month is a qualifier.

The WHS draft can be read in two ways. 
1) The Committee may accept such 'regular' competition scores as acceptable for handicapping purposes by agreement with the competition organisers.
2) The Committee may deem them to be acceptable for handicapping purposes and insist that players return their scores.

The former would seem to match those examples and I hope that is what the draft means.


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



@Old Skier
Much like our Seniors who play socially on a Monday. But the first in every month is a qualifier.

The WHS draft can be read in two ways.
1) The Committee may accept such 'regular' competition scores as acceptable for handicapping purposes by agreement with the competition organisers.
2) The Committee may deem them to be acceptable for handicapping purposes and insist that players return their scores.

The former would seem to match those examples and I hope that is what the draft means.
		
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All about compromising,  people still need social Golf, the reason most play.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As I said, there is some ambiguity in the words relating to the committee's authority relating to general play 'competitions'. I'm hoping it will be resolved shortly.
		
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OK - so it seems that a clubs management or it's competition/handicap committee should be able to declare such as our roll-up 'competition' to be general play and not a formal competition.  Or alternatively a groups 'competition' organiser can decline a request or offer from the club for the competition to be a WHS qualifier.  But the wrinkles in the differentiation and what a club can and cannot do are still getting ironed out. Good.


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## rulefan (Jul 20, 2020)

Apparently the rule means that both clauses apply. Quite what happens if the organisers and the Committee disagree, is a question to which I have no answer.


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## jim8flog (Jul 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			2. I find it hilarious that the Playing Handicap Allowances Table is 'not to be shared with golfers'. How exactly do they play a Pairs Matchplay then? Just guess, maybe? Possibly Old Skier had a hand in this one. 
.
		
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Totally agree with you on that point but I noticed it is headed 'recommended' maybe we have to wait for the new CONGU manual for it to be confirmed as 'mandatory'.


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## jim8flog (Jul 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Apparently the rule means that both clauses apply. Quite what happens if the organisers and the Committee disagree, is a question to which I have no answer.
		
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 I remember when CONGU said that scores in roll ups had to taken in to consideration at the Annual Review,  when I asked some of the groups for their records some of the relies were not exactly polite. In the end the decision was if I am not being given all records............


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