# TRUMP,  What the hell is going on



## badger57 (Sep 7, 2018)

Fake news?


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## gmc40 (Sep 27, 2018)

It's been surprisingly quiet on the Donald front recently, especially with all the current goings on. This comment is class though, even by his standards;

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/27/pre...as-respect-for-his-very-very-large-brain.html


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## bluewolf (Sep 27, 2018)

He's Jebediah Springfield....


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## Robster59 (Sep 28, 2018)

Today was a perfect example of politics and personal ambition taking priority over human rights.  




And everybody conveniently forgets the fourth monkey


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2018)

Well Mr PotUS - what did you expect when you continually attack with great vitriol the likes of CNN, the media, and leading Democrats.  

And his taking the mick out of those Republicans and those advisors who probably asked him to tone down the rhetoric a bit - right away at a rally he made fun of his 'gentler' tone - making it clear he didn't believe he should have to be 'gentler' - less inflammatory.  The guy is empathetically an empty vessel.  it is worrying and sad.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2018)

And so the mid-term elections tomorrow.  One of the (if not _the) _vilest PotUS ever - and almost certainly the greatest and most blatant liar the USA has ever had at the helm.  Eight lies every single day of his presidency - even counting Sundays and all those days on the golf course that he said he wasn't going to have (because only Obama spent time on the golf course and he wasn't going to do that - which was a lie of course).

But of course if you convince your supporters that everything the majority of MSM says about him is a lie - then many will simply believe that the reporting of his lyng is in itself a lie.  Not a great place to be.

Meanwhile when asked about telling the truth to the public (as he said promised before the election that he would) - Trump's reply?  _When I can, I tell the truth._  But there's the problem.  That's a lie - he rarely, if ever, tells the truth...


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## Fade and Die (Nov 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so the mid-term elections tomorrow.  One of the (if not _the) _vilest PotUS ever - and almost certainly the greatest and most blatant liar the USA has ever had at the helm.  Eight lies every single day of his presidency - even counting Sundays and all those days on the golf course that he said he wasn't going to have (because only Obama spent time on the golf course and he wasn't going to do that - which was a lie of course).

But of course if you convince your supporters that everything the majority of MSM says about him is a lie - then many will simply believe that the reporting of his lyng is in itself a lie.  Not a great place to be.

Meanwhile when asked about telling the truth to the public (as he said promised before the election that he would) - Trump's reply?  _When I can, I tell the truth._  But there's the problem.  That's a lie - he rarely, if ever, tells the truth...
		
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I am not a fan of The Don but the U.S. added 250,000 jobs in October, more than the 190,000 economists expectedâ€¦. The unemployment rate held at 3.7%, a nearly 50-year low, while wages grew 3.1% year-over-year, the biggest jump since 2009â€¦..Better get used to him as I think he is a shoe in for 4 more years!


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## Mr Hip (Nov 5, 2018)

None of this matters to his supporters. He's a class warrior, sticking it to the people they believe have shafted them for years, and saying the things they would like to say. Bad as it is now, it's going to get worse. From beautiful barbed wire to the smell of napalm in the morning?


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## Crazyface (Nov 6, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



*I am not a fan of The Don* but the U.S. added 250,000 jobs in October, more than the 190,000 economists expectedâ€¦. The unemployment rate held at 3.7%, a nearly 50-year low, while wages grew 3.1% year-over-year, the biggest jump since 2009â€¦..Better get used to him as I think he is a shoe in for 4 more years!
		
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"not a fan" but impressed with the figures??????


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2018)

If it's anything like his businesses it'll go tits up at some stage.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 6, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			"not a fan" but impressed with the figures??????
		
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Yes of course, are you not? 

Are your views so blinkered that you cannot give any credit to Trumps presidency? 
I donâ€™t like the man, I think heâ€™s an oaf but Iâ€™m not too slow to recognise why he is popular in the US, he is delivering on his election pledges like no president in living memory.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			I am not a fan of The Don but the U.S. added 250,000 jobs in October, more than the 190,000 economists expectedâ€¦. The unemployment rate held at 3.7%, a nearly 50-year low, while wages grew 3.1% year-over-year, the biggest jump since 2009â€¦..Better get used to him as I think he is a shoe in for 4 more years!
		
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Quite easy for jobs to materialise when the conditions and impetus was created by the Obama administration.

I suspect that many of his 35% acolytes listen to him lying - hear him lying - know that he is lying - but think that if they could get their own way, and what they want, by lying - then they would lie also.  So if Trump gets what HE wants by lying - even if his supporters know that he is lying to them also - then they will support him. 

As a Trump supporter yesterday told Katy Tur of MSNBC - _I know that he lies all the time, but I trust him.  _How can the Dems counter _that _sort of thinking...

KT's good.

https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watc...make-you-uncomfortable-1362419779542?v=raila&


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite easy for jobs to materialise when the conditions and impetus was created by the Obama administration.

I suspect that many of his acolytes listen to him lying - hear him lying - know that he is lying - but think that if they could get their own way, and what they want, by lying - then they would lie also.
		
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Or just maybe by some twisted fluke, his presidency has installed confidence in the markets and businesses states side.


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			I am not a fan of The Don but the U.S. added 250,000 jobs in October, more than the 190,000 economists expectedâ€¦. The unemployment rate held at 3.7%, a nearly 50-year low, while wages grew 3.1% year-over-year, the biggest jump since 2009â€¦..Better get used to him as I think he is a shoe in for 4 more years!
		
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Not quite as impressive when you look at it in context.


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## User62651 (Nov 7, 2018)

So, is the world a safer place this morning?

Mid terms, not going to pretend I know much about the US electoral system/politics but seems Trump did ok yesterday, lost House of Representatives which gives Democrats means to frustrate him but retained the Senate doing better than expected which is as important. Some commentators even suggesting by losing the House of Representatives it gives Trump a better chance in 2020 of re-election as POTUS as he'll have someone to blame when he cant meet former promises such as building the wall.

Trying to understand their system - is it correct that some voters were voting for 3 persons yesterday, some 2 , some 1 and some no vote? Based on -

Variable numbers of congressmen/women in House according to individual state populations, on 2 year terms.
2 senators per state on 6 year terms.
1 governor per state on 4 year term (some states 2 years)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

Well I am glad the PotUS thinks the various outcomes of the elections a 'tremendous success'.  Yes the GOP increased it's Senate majority by winning a few of the 35 out of 100 Senate seats up for grabs - not unexpected given the Red leaning nature of some the GOP won.  But I think losing control of the House is much more significant - especially given that the House...

_will now be able to launch subpoena-powered investigations into the presidentâ€™s finances, Russian interference, administration ethics scandals, and so much more â€” and to halt the conservative legislative agenda in its tracks. They could even demand Trumpâ€™s long-concealed tax returns._

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/6/18025...crats-win-house-trump-investigations-analysis


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			So, is the world a safer place this morning?

Mid terms, not going to pretend I know much about the US electoral system/politics but seems Trump did ok yesterday, lost House of Representatives which gives Democrats means to frustrate him but retained the Senate doing better than expected which is as important. Some commentators even suggesting by losing the House of Representatives it gives Trump a better chance in 2020 of re-election as POTUS as he'll have someone to blame when he cant meet former promises such as building the wall.

Trying to understand their system - is it correct that some voters were voting for 3 persons yesterday, some 2 , some 1 and some no vote? Based on -

Variable numbers of congressmen/women in House according to individual state populations, on 2 year terms.
2 senators per state on 6 year terms.
1 governor per state on 4 year term (some states 2 years)


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It is true that Trump will no doubt now be able to blame the Dems for him not getting stuff done,  but the Dems will be able to really dig into the President's personal circumstances; why did he sack Comey?; etc

And in addition to the various representation elections voters were presented with - some states and some districts in states were also voting for local legislation - so for instance voters in Utah voted to legalise medicinal use of cannabis

https://www.marijuanamoment.net/uta...ijuana-legalization-ahead-of-compromise-deal/


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## ger147 (Nov 7, 2018)

I'm sure the Donald will be quite happy with the results. Nothing unusual about the party in the White House losing some seats in the mid-terms and he's increased his majority in the Senate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I'm sure the Donald will be quite happy with the results. Nothing unusual about the party in the White House losing some seats in the mid-terms and he's increased his majority in the Senate.
		
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He will take the credit for the additional Senate seats and Governors (of course taking greatest pleasure and ownership where he had a rally in the state) - and in his head will put the House losses down to others.  He will still be thinking he can do what he wants.  But he can't.  And such as the House Judiciary Committee with a Dem Chairman are now able to ask what could be some very revealing questions of Trump; his finances, and his business interests.  His Presidency has been - to a significant extend - neutered.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2018)

He's most probably secured a further term listening to the US political commentators regardless of what we or SILH thinks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			He's most probably secured a further term listening to the US political commentators regardless of what we or SILH thinks.
		
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Quite possibly as he will spend the next 2yrs out on the stump - he can't be bothered with the day-to-day grind of politics and policy in any case - so will just stand there at the podium blaming the dems for everything and braying his self-serving lies and bile to his acolytes, and next time around - they will most likely vote for him.

Wonder how much over the coming days and weeks we'll be hearing from Trump on 'the immigrant caravan' and 'the tax cut for middle earners'...we'll see.


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## Dellboy (Nov 7, 2018)

Not overly keen on the bloke, but he had a better First Midterm than others...

Clinton  -52/-8
Obama  -63/-6
Trump   -34/+3

No doubt all the UK press will be going on about him getting spanked in the midterms, but he's done OK and I still have him down for winning a second term.


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## ger147 (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He will take the credit for the additional Senate seats and Governors (of course taking greatest pleasure and ownership where he had a rally in the state) - and in his head will put the House losses down to others.  He will still be thinking he can do what he wants.  But he can't.  And such as the House Judiciary Committee with a Dem Chairman are now able to ask what could be some very revealing questions of Trump; his finances, and his business interests.  His Presidency has been - to a significant extend - neutered.
		
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He will continue to do what he wants and most probably get most of what he wants through. There will be little/no effect on his presidency moving forward.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2018)

Things still going the Dems way as results continue to come in.  Florida Gov and Senator recounts triggered - the Reps complaining and wanting counting of votes finished - claiming conspiracy - which Trump just loves of course.

And you can only kick Jim Acosta out of the WH briefings once - so that diversion tactic gone as Mitch McConnell tells reporters that there is no way that Trump (or his lacky Matthew Whitaker - the new acting Attorney General) will be able to halt the Mueller investigation.  Indeed given Whitakers clearly stated views on the investigation it is possible that he may have to recuse himself (as Sessions had to) though he is of course insisting that he won't - well why would he - it's the only reason Trump appointed him to the role.

The little dog laughed to see such fun...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			Not overly keen on the bloke, but he had a better First Midterm than others...

Clinton  -52/-8
Obama  -63/-6
Trump   -34/+3

No doubt all the UK press will be going on about him getting spanked in the midterms, but he's done OK and I still have him down for winning a second term.
		
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Presidents generally don't do well in Mid-term when the economy, jobs, stock market etc are not doing well.  When these things are going well then the President does wll in the Mid-terms.  They are all going well at the moment - whether Trump had anything to do with them is neither here nor there - the numbers are good for the President - but the GOP has lost a lot of seats in Congress, it has lost Governors and it has lost 100s of legislature seats - in midterm elections which Trump made 'all about him' 

So putting aside what Trump might want us to believe - here are the facts

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...8-results-governors-state-legislatures-agenda


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2018)

When you look at who has stopped a number of minority/ethnic groups from voting you've really got to question the democracy in the USA. For example, a number of native Americans can't register to vote because their Reservation address isn't recognised. And a number of African-Americans also struggle to register because they are from a poor background and their births weren't registered.

Coincidence, but the majority of groups that are excluded from voting (typically) vote Democrat... and Trump is a Republican. Purely coincidence of course.

And if you look at how many recounts are currently taking place in different states...


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## IanM (Nov 9, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Coincidence, but the majority of groups that are excluded from voting (typically) vote Democrat... and Trump is a Republican. Purely coincidence of course.
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So this is something Trump brought in?  (clearly not, but Obama didnt change it either)   

There is an ID to vote debate in the UK right now... some interesting conversations being had... some of the alarming.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 10, 2018)

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-jo...=referral&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral



The guy is a joke


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## bluewolf (Nov 10, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://news.sky.com/story/trump-jo...=referral&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral



The guy is a joke
		
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Can't have him getting his hair wet can we.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2018)

White House lawn yesterday on his pick for the new Acting Attorney General _"I've never met/known Matt Whitaker"_ x 5 (clue: when Trump is spinning a biggie he usually repeats himself).  

Trump speaking on 11th October _"Matt Whitaker is a great guy.  I mean.  I know Matt Whitaker"_

Would be dead funny if he wasn't PotUS - actually it is still dead funny just because it is so ludicrous - Trump is sooo ludicrous...


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## srixon 1 (Nov 10, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Can't have him getting his hair wet can we.
		
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If it gets wet his comb-over will meltðŸ˜


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Daniel Dale of the Toronto Star has been fact-checking every utterance Trump has made over the last two years - and so we learn from Dale that in the month leading up to the Mid-terms Trump uttered 815 lies or deceits.  Almost 30 a day - every day - with the maximum being 54 on the eve of the elections themselves.

Now we might say that all politicians lie - but never on this scale - well at least not in a democracy.


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## Dando (Nov 16, 2018)

Are they lies or exaggerations?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Dando said:



			Are they lies or exaggerations?
		
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Exaggerations can be as bad as lies if the listener does not know the difference or the truth.

So Trump said that the Dems will give a car to undocumented immigrants - Lie or exaggeration?  Whatever - it's just not true.

He said that the Dems are behind the caravan coming up from Central America - Lie or exaggeration?  Whatever - it's just not true.

And so on - and on - and on.  815 times in one month.

Here's a link

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...-of-donald-trumps-pre-midterm-dishonesty.html

And hearing that Trump is permanently angry these days - what with the Mid-terms, the Veterans Day debacle etc etc - and apparently he just doesn't have any friends to share his problems with.  And now - to top it all - following the Jim Acosta 'banning' Fox News are coming out as supportive of Jim Acosta and CNN and critical of Trumpo.  Oh good grief - poor Donald will go into meltdown if he thinks that Fox News are turning against him.


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## gmc40 (Nov 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Exaggerations can be as bad as lies if the listener does not know the difference or the truth.

So Trump said that the Dems will give a car to undocumented immigrants - Lie or exaggeration?  Whatever - it's just not true.

He said that the Dems are behind the caravan coming up from Central America - Lie or exaggeration?  Whatever - it's just not true.

And so on - and on - and on.  815 times in one month.

Here's a link

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...-of-donald-trumps-pre-midterm-dishonesty.html

And hearing that Trump is permanently angry these days - what with the Mid-terms, the Veterans Day debacle etc etc - and apparently he just doesn't have any friends to share his problems with.  And now - to top it all - following the Jim Acosta 'banning' Fox News are coming out as supportive of Jim Acosta and CNN and critical of Trumpo.  Oh good grief - poor Donald will go into meltdown if he thinks that Fox News are turning against him.
		
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I actually watched Fox News this morning to see if it is as bad as it's made out to be. They had Sarah Huckabee Sanders on and a number of "commentators" who were clearly in the trump camp. It was just nonsense, I had to turn it off after 20 mins, couldn't watch anymore.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 20, 2018)

A funny one today. Ivanka Trump has been caught using her own email account to contact people regarding political matters. This is not allowed as all politicians and advisors emails are archived in case required and so they need to use a govt account. This was the big case regarding Hillary during the election remember. Donald was chanting for Hillary to go to jail for doing this..........Ivanka can hardly claim that she didn't know it was illegal following all of the fuss her dad made.


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## Cherry13 (Nov 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A funny one today. Ivanka Trump has been caught using her own email account to contact people regarding political matters. This is not allowed as all politicians and advisors emails are archived in case required and so they need to use a govt account. This was the big case regarding Hillary during the election remember. Donald was chanting for Hillary to go to jail for doing this..........*Ivanka can hardly claim that she didn't know it was illegal following all of the fuss her dad made*.
		
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And yet this is the exact defence theyâ€™ve gave ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 20, 2018)

Cherry13 said:



			And yet this is the exact defence theyâ€™ve gave ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
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I know. Funny isn't it?

Someone was talking the other day about how Trump can lie and change opinion like no other politician and people now just shrug the shoulders and carry on. He truly is a teflon President to his supporters.


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## Mr Hip (Nov 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A funny one today. Ivanka Trump has been caught using her own email account to contact people regarding political matters. This is not allowed as all politicians and advisors emails are archived in case required and so they need to use a govt account. This was the big case regarding Hillary during the election remember. Donald was chanting for Hillary to go to jail for doing this..........Ivanka can hardly claim that she didn't know it was illegal following all of the fuss her dad made.
		
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He keeps going on about keeping election promises yet there is still no special prosecutor for Hillary. You have to think that the House will be all over this one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2018)

Lock-Her-Up!! Lock-Her-Up!!

...ooops...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2018)

gmc40 said:



			I actually watched Fox News this morning to see if it is as bad as it's made out to be. They had Sarah Huckabee Sanders on and a number of "commentators" who were clearly in the trump camp. It was just nonsense, I had to turn it off after 20 mins, couldn't watch anymore.
		
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Not all of Fox news is so terrrible - Chris Wallace and especially Shep Smith call Trump out all the time.  Most of the rest are just sycophantically awful.  I believe Fox have also come out in support of Jim Acosta - criticising Trump's removal of Acosta's Press Pass to the WH - which has now been pertly revoked.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2018)

Trump slams Admiral William McRaven (highly decorated SEAL commander) when McRaven dares criticise him; and dismisses the US Intel Community assessment of the Khashoggi murder - preferring instead to support and defend the Saudi regime and their money.

Oh he is good - very good...

Except that maybe in the eyes of many Americans he is not so good - because in the mid-terms as final results have rolled in.  The popular vote across the USA sees the Dems 8.5% ahead of the GOP - and that is a historically a very significant blue wave.  The most recent anywhere near was in 1994 when the GOP swept Congress with a margin of 7%. 

And why the 8.5% this time?  It seems to have been healthcare - the US public do not believe or trust Trump on healthcare.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2018)

Trump gonna be very not happy - in fact he's going to be a-raging.  Michael Cohen pleads guilty to lying to Congress about when Trump was involved in a Moscow 'Trump Tower'.

And why did Cohen lie? Well Cohen tells the Mueller investigation that he did so out of loyalty to Trump - to line up with what Trump and other Trump supporters were saying of Trumps business dealings in Russia prior to the election.  And what Cohen has said may now contradict with what Trump has subsequently himself said.

Meanwhile on the Manafort front - good boys-own spy-intrigue stuff.

We find out that Manafort's lawyer has been briefing Trump and his lawyers over what the Mueller investigation have been asking Manafort and the nature of the investigations.  And there is a growing suspicion that Manafort plead guilty (as he has done) and so is under investigation purely so that Trump can get an 'inside line' on the Mueller investigation - Manafort knowing that come what may he'll get a pardon from Trump.  But Trump of course can't help himself as he has been talking about he has inside information about the 'witch hunt' - as he calls it.  And now we know how...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2018)

Broadcast by ABC today - Michael Cohen speaking out on Trump's recent tweets attacking him and his family - Cohen is not willing to take more from Trump given he's been truthful and been handed a 3yr prison sentence.

_I lied for him (Trump) for more than 10yrs ... out of loyalty.  _

https://abc13.com/politics/watch-michael-cohen-speaks-exclusively-on-gma/4896898/


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## larmen (Dec 14, 2018)

German newscare writing about illegal donations from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE. Could explain why he doesnâ€™t follow the senate to condemn the prince. And at what point are we getting close to treason?

A Trump trial on pay per view could be good for the US budget ;-) making America great again.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

The guy is teflon coated. He'll see his term out.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The guy is teflon coated. He'll see his term out.
		
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I wonder what the odds are at the bookies of a Trump 2nd term?


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I wonder what the odds are at the bookies of a Trump 2nd term?
		
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A month ago I'd have said he'll get a second term. Now I'm not so sure.


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A month ago I'd have said he'll get a second term. Now I'm not so sure.
		
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I have no idea whether he can win a 2nd term or not, my gut feel says if the Democrats come up with a good candidate, he will lose next time round.

But you never know, he couldn't win 1st time round according to everyone who knew better...


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## GreiginFife (Dec 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A month ago I'd have said he'll get a second term. Now I'm not so sure.
		
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Never underestimate the mob stupidity of middle 'murica.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

The Attorney General for New York State has ordered the closure of Trump's charity foundation amid accusations of illegality. She has accused Trump and his 3 eldest children of using the charity's money for political and personal gain. The list of illegal use is long.

The outstanding monies can only be disbursed by reputable organisations appointed by the AG. Trump and family are not allowed any access to the foundation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2018)

...and also yesterday and in court Trump's ex National Security Adviser took a hammering from the sentencing judge - with the judge seriously not impressed by Flynn's undercover actions for Turkey whilst NSA in the heart of the WH - stating â€œI am going to be frank with you, this crime is very serious, I canâ€™t hide my disgust, my disdain, at this criminal offence.â€

The judge was also pretty critical of the government lawyers for arranging a_ 'no immediate custodial sentence' _sweetheart deal with Flynn's lawyers for Flynn's cooperation...and asked 6 times whether Flynn's lawyers *really *wanted to continue to sentencing that day.  Five times they said no - and only on the 6th time of asking when the judge pointed to the US flag in the courtroom and said that what Flynn had done â€œ...undermines everything this flag over here stands for.â€ did they accept the offer.   Flynn's lawyers clearly had had an 'oh shoot - we're in trouble' moment and agreed to delay sentencing to give time - as the judge was saying - time to add more to the balance that will enable him to not give Flynn a custodial sentence.  I wonder what Flynn has been saying and will now say further...and will Trump call him a 'rat' - as he has called Michael Cohen.

Ve-e-e-ree interesting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2018)

What's going on all around Trump is that the investigations (17 in total) are getting closer to Trump, the Trump family and the Trump Organisation. 

Special Counsel Robert Mueller requests the transcript of the House Intel Committee 2017 interview of Roger Stone (a Trump 'best buddy' if he has one) - and the GOP chaired committee today agreed to release it.  Might be nothing in at all and the GOP may be saying - look Mueller - nothing to see here.  An alternative might be that Stone told a lot that the GOP were very uncomfortable withholding.

Quite separately - that Letter of Intent for the Trump tower in Moscow that didn't exist, and even if it did it wasn't signed by Trump? (the Giuliani defence...) - well waddya know - CNN get hold of said LoT - signed by Trump.  And when Trump was saying he had no ongoing commercial dealings with Russia?  All lies and deceit.  Maybe not criminal in their own right - but simply lies to the American public and evidence of dealings that could have opened Trump up to acts of coercion by 3rd parties...

Surely even Trump would not chuck in as a diversionary tactic pulling the US troops out of Syria against the advice of all National Security advisers and the military - who knows...

And the Border Wall and Trump shutting down government if the Dems don't approve budget for the wall in the government spending bill?  Pity - the Senate has just passed a temporary bill proposed by the GOP to tide things over until Feb to reduce the risk of an immediate government shut down as threatened by Trump.  Of course it has to get through Congress and then be signed off by Trump.  If it gets to him it will be interesting to see if he refuses to sign off a GOP bill.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 20, 2018)

Yet more evidence of your double standards/hypocrisy SiLH. Trump lies about something (or lots of things) and you're all over it. Corbyn lies about what he said and you defend him and blame the Tories. The Remain campaign lied and you defended it as just exaggeration. Maybe Trump didn't lie. Maybe he just exaggerated.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yet more evidence of your double standards/hypocrisy SiLH. Trump lies about something (or lots of things) and you're all over it. Corbyn lies about what he said and you defend him and blame the Tories. The Remain campaign lied and you defended it as just exaggeration. Maybe Trump didn't lie. Maybe he just exaggerated.
		
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Very succinct and well said.

Sadly I given up hope that Hogie will even recognise a glimmer in the above.


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## gmc40 (Dec 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yet more evidence of your double standards/hypocrisy SiLH. Trump lies about something (or lots of things) and you're all over it. Corbyn lies about what he said and you defend him and blame the Tories. The Remain campaign lied and you defended it as just exaggeration. Maybe Trump didn't lie. Maybe he just exaggerated.
		
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To be fair, everything that's going on around Trump is a little more serious than whether Corbyn said "Stupid Woman" or "Stupid People".

There's a fair bit of faux outrage over what Jezza did or didn't say.


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## Dando (Dec 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yet more evidence of your double standards/hypocrisy SiLH. Trump lies about something (or lots of things) and you're all over it. Corbyn lies about what he said and you defend him and blame the Tories. The Remain campaign lied and you defended it as just exaggeration. Maybe Trump didn't lie. Maybe he just exaggerated.
		
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Trump lies, but Corbyn exaggerates! 
Lets hope SILH ducks out of this thread as well


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 21, 2018)

Makes me laugh when people say they would have liked a trump like figure negotiating brexit for us. 

As he's been repeatedly shown to be someone who made false promises that he can't enact and the absolute driving force behind anything he does is how it will benefit him personally in terms of keeping in power. 

He'd of fitted in well ðŸ˜‰


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## Griffsters (Dec 21, 2018)

Its pretty right wing on here,  I welcome Swings it Like Hogan bringing a different perspective. One thing he has in Common with Trump is that he is teflon coated.


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2018)

Interesting that an exec order last week to regenerate inner cities got zero coverage over here!

Imagine if a video of him stoking womens' hair (like one on the Brexit thread) did the rounds?

He is still a arse, but funny how the coverage is managed...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yet more evidence of your double standards/hypocrisy SiLH. Trump lies about something (or lots of things) and you're all over it. Corbyn lies about what he said and you defend him and blame the Tories. The Remain campaign lied and you defended it as just exaggeration. Maybe Trump didn't lie. Maybe he just exaggerated.
		
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You have not been paying attention if you think for one nanosecond that I believe what Corbyn says.  What the Remain campaign said in predicting serious problems is not in the same universe as the blatant lying of Trump.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

Meanwhile in Trumpland - Gen James Mattis - Trump's Sec of State for Defence resigns - face to face with Trump he hands Trump his resignation letter - so Trump can't claim that he fired Mattis.

And Mattis's resignation letter has been released by the Pentagon.  In it Mattis clearly states that the reason he is resigning is because his and Trump's views do not align. Mattis's views?...

_...we must use all tools of American power to provide for the common defense, including providing effective leadership to our alliances. NATO's 29 democracies demonstrated that strength in their commitment to fighting alongside us following the 9-11 attack on America. The Defeat-ISIS coalition of 74 nations is further proof.
Similarly, I believe we must be resolute and unambiguous in our approach to those countries whose strategic interests are increasingly in tension with ours. It is clear that China and Russia, for example, want to shape a world consistent with their authoritarian model - gaining veto authority over other nations' economic, diplomatic, and security decisions - to promote their own interests at the expense of their neighbors, America and our allies. That is why we must use all the tools of American power to provide for the common defense._

_My views on treating allies with respect and also being clear-eyed about both malign actors and strategic competitors are strongly held and informed by over four decades of immersion in these issues. We must do everything possible to advance an international order that is most conducive to our security, prosperity and values, and we are strengthened in this effort by the solidarity of our alliances. _

_Because you have the right to have a Secretary of Defense whose views are better aligned with yours on these and other subjects, I believe it is right for me to step down from my position.  _

And clearly Mattis' experience of Trump is that Trump is somewhere else on all of the above


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			Interesting that an exec order last week to regenerate inner cities got zero coverage over here!

Imagine if a video of him stoking womens' hair (like one on the Brexit thread) did the rounds?

He is still a arse, but funny how the coverage is managed...
		
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It actually got limited coverage in the US media also - they are too busy trying to keep up with the chaos happening around, and being generated by, Trump.  So see just this week Trump's 100% troop withdrawal from Syria and now also 50% withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan.  And the GOP - almost as one - are opposing Trump on these orders.  

Meanwhile The Wall - and it looks like Trump will refuse to sign the carry-over bill put forward by the GOP in the senate - and even if he does and government doesn't shut down - he is thinking of pulling funding from the military to build it.

The question some are asking (but as yet only hypothetically and without really believing it might happen) is a bizarre one around whether the US military might actually refuse to enact a presidential order...


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It actually got limited coverage in the US media also - they are too busy trying to keep up with the chaos happening around, and being generated by, Trump.   ..
		
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Surely that's a statement about the polarity of the media in the US?  Your interpretation is comical.   

Forget that it is Trump for a mo, and you could argue that it is a President delivering on one of his manifesto promises! (shock)  Initiatives like this will potentially make massive differences in these communites. 

The Democrats however, maintaining their current approach are in danger of helping keep themselves out of Office.  Even if Trump ends up in jail, the folk helped by this will vote Republican next time.


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## gmc40 (Dec 22, 2018)

IanM said:



			Interesting that an exec order last week to regenerate inner cities got zero coverage over here!

Imagine if a video of him stoking womens' hair (like one on the Brexit thread) did the rounds?

He is still a arse, but funny how the coverage is managed...
		
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The way his coverage is managed has been influenced by his actions so heâ€™s only got himself to blame. 

Anyway hereâ€™s a tweet from him letting everyone know about the hard work heâ€™s doing. As someone has pointed out though, it appears heâ€™s using invisible ink. 

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some of the many Bills that I am signing in the Oval Office right now. Cancelled my trip on Air Force One to Florida while we wait to see if the Democrats will help us to protect Americaâ€™s Southern Border! <a href="https://t.co/ws6LYhKcKl">pic.twitter.com/ws6LYhKcKl</a></p>&mdash; Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076256868190834689">December 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


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## larmen (Dec 22, 2018)

Is there a place I can put a bet on President Pence pardoning former President Trump before Christmas 2019?


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 22, 2018)

I love Donald Trump, and believe the guy is a breath of fresh air. About time the world had a proper right wing leader again, and someone who cares about his country first. Admittedly I don't agree with all his policies, and he is prone to the occasional fib, but let's be honest, what politician isn't


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2018)

Loving that a week after claiming in his meeting with Schumer and Pelosi compete ownership of any government closure due to lack of funding for The Wall - Trump gets his way and a partial government close down comes about - and Trump sits there brazen as you like blaming the Dems for it.  But not all GOP senators are so fooled - Bob Corker...

_â€œThis is a made-up fight so the president can look like heâ€™s fighting,â€  _

_â€œThis is something that is useless, itâ€™s spectacle, itâ€™s puerile,â€  _

And it is impacting 100s of thousands of ordinary government employees - with them not being paid or put on furlough and some quite possibly not getting paid for that time.  All because the President has a temper tantrum worthy of a two yr old because he isn't getting is way.


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## gmc40 (Dec 24, 2018)

Putting his country first apparently. 

Funny that heâ€™s blaming the Democrats though. I thought the Mexicans were paying for it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2018)

gmc40 said:



			Putting his country first apparently.

Funny that heâ€™s blaming the Democrats though. I thought the Mexicans were paying for it?
		
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He can feels he can blame the Dems as in the US Senate you need a super-majority to get anything passed - and that is 60 votes.  For that to come about the majority party requires minority party support.  The Founding Fathers set it up that way so that no one party or group could push contentious legislation through with only the slimmest of majorities.  Hmmm - something that this country could learn from the US maybe.  

And Trump is still claiming the Mexicans will pay for the wall - and they will do indirectly through increased tariffs on Mexican goods and services imported into the US as a result of the recent Canada/US/Mexico trade deal.  Trump just needs the dosh up front and the Dems are just not going to do it.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 25, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Makes me laugh when people say they would have liked a trump like figure negotiating brexit for us.

As he's been repeatedly shown to be someone who made false promises that he can't enact and the absolute driving force behind anything he does is how it will benefit him personally in terms of keeping in power.

He'd of fitted in well ðŸ˜‰
		
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Does he appear to make exaggerated claims and look for personal benefit; hell, yes.

Would he have dropped his trousers, bent over and asked Tusk, Barnier & Juncker not to spank him too hard as our politicians apparently did; hell, no.

As odious as he is and as much like some our own politicians as he is, he could certainly give them some lessons in negotiating the best deal for your own country.


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## gmc40 (Dec 25, 2018)

Heâ€™s even ruined a kids Xmas

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46678124


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2018)

_I am all alone (poor me) in the White House waiting for the Democrats to come back and make a deal on desperately needed Border Security.  _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1077255770725601280
Aw diddums - but good grief - this is the PotUS talking...


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 31, 2018)

just read on aol that good ole Donald told more than a few porkies in 2018 like 5,600 of them thats 15 per day average.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2019)

Trump addressing the nation this evening on all major networks - no doubt pushing the case for him declaring a National Emergency over the need for a wall - *the *Wall.  This being the wall that his aides suggested to Trump as a means of remembering to talk about immigration - prior to that idea there was no talk of a wall.

That big lovely concrete wall that Mexico will pay for - that isn't all going to be concrete - and Mexico will not be paying for it - well not directly...if funds can be subsequently be directed from tariffs on Mexican imports to USA. 

The big wonder today, last night and this morning in much of the US media is around how many lies and deceits Trump is going to tell about immigration; the terrorist threat from the south; declaring a National Emergency (even Fox news legal advisers say he can't) - and the wall. 

But of course it has become Trump's 'go-to' from before and since the election.  When he sees the crowd getting bored or distracted - straight to 'the wall' ('lock her up' perhaps becoming a bit too close to home given those associated with Trump now being locked up).  And meanwhile off the back of it - much of the US Government remains shut down...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46915909

If true, and Buzzfeed claim multiple separate sources saying Trump told Cohen to lie about Trump and Russia links, then Trump seems to be in an 'obstruction of justice' hole.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2019)

Donald popping across to old England buy up the NHS and other assorted bargains he can get post Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Donald popping across to old England buy up the NHS and other assorted bargains he can get post Brexit.
		
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It's a buyers market.......


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 3, 2019)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...tone-cold-loser-before-landing-in-uk-11733909

Its amazing the level the US President goes too . The US President being disrespectful to someone called Sajid Khan is going to appeal to a big amount of his supporters


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2019)

Swears a bit so don't watch if that offends you or if you have a sense of humour bypass.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Donald popping across to old England buy up the NHS and other assorted bargains he can get post Brexit.
		
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We might sell him off some more of Scotland. It is ours to sell after all.


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## jp5 (Jun 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The US President being disrespectful to someone called *Sajid Khan* is going to appeal to a big amount of his supporters
		
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Uhhh....


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Swears a bit so don't watch if that offends you or if you have a sense of humour bypass.







Click to expand...

Very amusing old fruit.  What's wrong with his ear though ðŸ¤”


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...tone-cold-loser-before-landing-in-uk-11733909

Its amazing the level the US President goes too . The US President being disrespectful to someone called Sajid Khan is going to appeal to a big amount of his supporters
		
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I have to say I detest Trump - probably one of the very worst leaders in the world at present. However, a throwaway question at the end of a Beeb interview a few days ago, Sadiq Khan was asked a question about Trump's visit. His reply had as much class as Trump's. Dismayed to hear Khan stoop to the same level as Trump.

As an aside, its interesting to hear Khan speak in London Council meetings. I used to think he was quite good but he comes across as a petulant child.


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## Dando (Jun 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...tone-cold-loser-before-landing-in-uk-11733909

Its amazing the level the US President goes too . The US President being disrespectful to someone called Sajid Khan is going to appeal to a big amount of his supporters
		
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Try looking at what saddick Khant has said about trump in the past


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## IanM (Jun 3, 2019)

The Mayor's campaigned actively for Louis Farrahkan   (Go and check him out)  And he sanctions a march that calls  for the murder of jews.   

The Leader of the Opposition called HAMAS and Hezbollah "his friends"......... and met the IRA often

Offence taken about either by the staunch defenders of womens' rights, gay rights and racism???             ZERO


Trump is an arse, I have no time for him...........   but he is here as the elected head of USA to commemorate D Day anniversary.   Offence taken by the above group of folk

  LOTS


Explain the disparity please.   I am keen to listen.    Or will it be dismissed as "whatbootary?"   I call it hypocrisy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			Try looking at what saddick Khant has said about trump in the past
		
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Khan isnâ€™t the â€œmost powerful man in the worldâ€ - he is just the Mayor of London. Will be interesting to see if what Khan has said about Trump is any different to what a lot of people have said about him - but either way Potus should be rising above it instead of acting like a teenager on twitter


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## drdel (Jun 3, 2019)

I see Mr Corbyn is to speak at an anti-Trump rally. What an earth is his problem with acting with an element of statesmanship?

Trump is here because of WW2 as a long-term military ally.

I despair that we have senior political figures like him and Khan representing the UK opposition and City of London. The one bit of luck is that Trump probably couldn't give a stuff (hopefully).


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## Dando (Jun 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Khan isnâ€™t the â€œmost powerful man in the worldâ€ - he is just the Mayor of London. Will be interesting to see if what Khan has said about Trump is any different to what a lot of people have said about him - but either way Potus should be rising above it instead of acting like a teenager on twitter[/QUOTE

Surely â€œKhantâ€ as mayor of London should not act like a child either and rise above it
		
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## Dando (Jun 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Mr Corbyn is to speak at an anti-Trump rally. What an earth is his problem with acting with an element of statesmanship?

Trump is here because of WW2 as a long-term military ally.

I despair that we have senior political figures like him and Khan representing the UK opposition and City of London. The one bit of luck is that Trump probably couldn't give a stuff (hopefully).
		
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Just imagine the uproar and toy throwing by the kids if it was the other way round and trump refused to meet old man steptoe and khant


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## drdel (Jun 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			Just imagine the uproar and toy throwing by the kids if it was the other way round and trump refused to meet old man steptoe and khant
		
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The City of London flies a bloody balloon!!!  Its kinder garden time.


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			The City of London flies a bloody balloon!!!  Its kinder garden time.
		
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What's wrong with gentle protest? Isn't it the right of any democracy, to be able to protest? Its not a yellow vest riot...


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## SatchFan (Jun 3, 2019)

.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Mr Corbyn is to speak at an anti-Trump rally. What an earth is his problem with acting with an element of statesmanship?
		
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My biggest issue with the stance that Corbyn has decided to take is that he and the Labour Party have said that when the new leader of the Conservatives is chosen they will bring a motion of no confidence against whoever that might be. If that succeeds and Labour win the general election that would probably follow then Corbyn will be PM and I'm not sure that his current stance is exactly conducive to fostering good relations between the UK and the US.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What's wrong with gentle protest? Isn't it the right of any democracy, to be able to protest? Its not a yellow vest riot...
		
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Flying a balloon representing the US president in a nappy isn't gentle protesting IMHO, Its immature and highly insulting.   If people want to protest against him then there are more grown up ways of doing it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

Corbyn and Bercow.  Complete wasters who put person before state.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 3, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135643174515499008


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## MegaSteve (Jun 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn and Bercow.  Complete wasters who put person before state.
		
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Think you could easily add BoJo to that duo...


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## Crazyface (Jun 4, 2019)

As the lady on the Politics show said to the stupid Labour woman, not exactly this but the drift was.....Look stupid, if want the US to continue to support you when you go in to wars, we being your biggest allie, I suggest you shut your stupid mouth.

And yet the stupid labour woman continued to spout her utter drivel. If Labour win a GE with the bunch of idiots currently rising to the top, the country will collapse as the amount of money that will vanish from bank accounts held here in to safer places like the US will ensure there will be none here to fund the stupid things Labour will want to do to bankrupt the country, as they always do. Even Blair ended up doing it, and I thought he was good....until it turned out he was as mad as the rest of them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			As the lady on the Politics show said to the stupid Labour woman, not exactly this but the drift was.....Look stupid, if want the US to continue to support you when you go in to wars, we being your biggest allie, I suggest you shut your stupid mouth.

And yet the stupid labour woman continued to spout her utter drivel. If Labour win a GE with the bunch of idiots currently rising to the top, the country will collapse as the amount of money that will vanish from bank accounts held here in to safer places like the US will ensure there will be none here to fund the stupid things Labour will want to do to bankrupt the country, as they always do. Even Blair ended up doing it, and I thought he was good....until it turned out he was as mad as the rest of them.
		
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Are these the wars that we go in because of the US ? 

If there is a way we can stop following the US into their wars then Iâ€™m all for it - will stop British Armed Forces guys and girls getting killed


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are these the wars that we go in because of the US ?

If there is a way we can stop following the US into their wars then Iâ€™m all for it - will stop British Armed Forces guys and girls getting killed
		
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But what about our alliances, not only with the US but with NATO. I see very little evidence going forward that a British PM will refuse to support a legitimate US military action


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			As the lady on the Politics show said to the stupid Labour woman, not exactly this but the drift was.....Look stupid, if want the US to continue to support you when you go in to wars, we being your biggest allie, I suggest you shut your stupid mouth.

And yet the stupid labour woman continued to spout her utter drivel. If Labour win a GE with the bunch of idiots currently rising to the top, the country will collapse as the amount of money that will vanish from bank accounts held here in to safer places like the US will ensure there will be none here to fund the stupid things Labour will want to do to bankrupt the country, as they always do. Even Blair ended up doing it, and I thought he was good....until it turned out he was as mad as the rest of them.
		
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Some hot political insight there so just let me check I've got this right.  We've just voted to take back control.  And that now seems to involve appeasing Trump and bending over so he can do what he wants with us under his 'America First' agenda. So he will support us when we go into wars.   And if Labour get in then all the Russian and Middle Eastern Money that is being held in bank accounts in this country will go to America? So if that is the case would Trump not be supporting a Labour administration? And all Labour people are stupid?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But what about our alliances, not only with the US but with NATO. I see very little evidence going forward that a British PM will refuse to support a legitimate US military action
		
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Is that the same legitimate wars like Iraq and the WMDâ€™s.
Or the current spat between the US and Iran after Trump has withdrawn from the Nuclear deal and UK, Germany, France etc hasnâ€™t?
Who determines legitimacy? US, UN, NATO?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that the same legitimate wars like Iraq and the WMDâ€™s.
Or the current spat between the US and Iran after Trump has withdrawn from the Nuclear deal and UK, Germany, France etc hasnâ€™t?
Who determines legitimacy? US, UN, NATO?
		
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I agree but my point is like it or not, the UK will inevitably support the US in events going forward at some stage and that (in response to LP's point) will lead to UK casualties. I think it will be very hard having supported Desert Storm etc not to do so ongoing and whether NATO, France, Germany etc put pressure on the UK not to (or Trump regarding his actions) remains to be seen. Legitimacy will only be seen through the eyes of the PM at the time surely


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree but my point is like it or not, the UK will inevitably support the US in events going forward at some stage and that (in response to LP's point) will lead to UK casualties. I think it will be very hard having supported Desert Storm etc not to do so ongoing and whether NATO, France, Germany etc put pressure on the UK not to (or Trump regarding his actions) remains to be seen. Legitimacy will only be seen through the eyes of the PM at the time surely
		
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No, totally different going in under a NATO or UN banner, then they would be allies, look at the situation with Iran currently, are you suggesting we should support him just because he says action would be legitimate?
If Corbyn was PM do you think heâ€™d follow?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

People really do have short memories when it comes to Trump, he dogded the draft twice in the US for Vietnam, heâ€™s cut budgets that affect US Veterans and as for the Royal Family respecting him, never should we forget his tweet below.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			People really do have short memories when it comes to Trump, he dogded the draft twice in the US for Vietnam, heâ€™s cut budgets that affect US Veterans and as for the Royal Family respecting him, never should we forget his tweet below.
View attachment 27463

Click to expand...

Quite a history of US politicians of a relevant age managing avoid service during the Vietnam years. 

Bill Clinton and George W Bush successfully found ways  around it as well as Bush. 

Strangely enough it doesn't seem to subsequently deter them from sending others into life threatening situations.


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But what about our alliances, not only with the US but with NATO. I see very little evidence going forward that a British PM will refuse to support a legitimate US military action
		
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This is the NATO that everyone in Europe supports right up until they are asked to pay their fair share. 

Lets face it most countries have exploited the USA to a level that's equivalent to taking the urine! (a bit like the EU). Trump said he was fed up with that happening, its not a surprise that the average American Joe supports him.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 4, 2019)

He tells JC to do one 

â€œI donâ€™t know @*jeremycorbyn*. He wanted to meet today or tomorrow and I decided not to do thatâ€ says @*realDonaldTrump*


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## Fade and Die (Jun 4, 2019)

Hard left in action. Stupid woman doesnâ€™t realise she is the Nazi. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135910079889399808


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Hard left in action. Stupid woman doesnâ€™t realise she is the Nazi.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135910079889399808

Click to expand...

The state of her ðŸ¤¢


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 4, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135931984868499456


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## IanM (Jun 4, 2019)

Just for balance ... 

I laughed out loud at the photos on Twitter showing huge crowds welcoming Trump that were actually of Liverpool's Champions League Parade!!

and 

Saw an interview clip of a screaming banshee protester, who could give any examples of specific Trump atrocities having said she he was guilty of loads!

And another caller to radio who said "Corbyn wont visit you unless you've planted bombs in public!


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## Fade and Die (Jun 4, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135933416300515329


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

Aww this lovely man is going to buy our NHS from us. That canâ€™t end in tears at all. Yay.


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## IanM (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Aww this lovely man is going to buy our NHS from us. That canâ€™t end in tears at all. Yay. 

Click to expand...

I very much doubt it.   But again, we'll see.


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Aww this lovely man is going to buy our NHS from us. That canâ€™t end in tears at all. Yay. 

Click to expand...

Not true, its  about procurement.


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2019)

This is a 'State' visit. Prince Harry, Corbyn and Bercow hold official positions that carry a responsibility to do 'official' business. If they don't want to perform the task don't take the job?


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			This is a 'State' visit. Prince Harry, Corbyn and Bercow hold official positions that carry a responsibility to do 'official' business. If they don't want to perform the task don't take the job?
		
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Corbyn didnâ€™t reject a meeting with Trump, it was the other way round.  So letâ€™s see the bigoted, racist sloth back to the US of A?


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Corbyn didnâ€™t reject a meeting with Trump, it was the other way round.  So letâ€™s see the bigoted, racist sloth back to the US of A?
		
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A Labour Party spokesman has said Corbyn did request a meeting. Its on the BBC website.

Corbyn playing both sides, just as he has over Brexit. He tries to look good to all those opposed to Trump but also asks for a meeting...


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A Labour Party spokesman has said Corbyn did request a meeting. Its on the BBC website.
		
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Thatâ€™s what I said...


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Thatâ€™s what I said...
		
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Old age...or I need a visit to Specsavers.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 4, 2019)

So Jezza is invited to a ball with the Queen and the POTUS. Jezza decides agonist going. However Jezza then thinks it is a good idea to have a meeting with the POTUS. What planet does he live on. Wonder what Jezzas thoughts are knowing Mr Trump is having a beer with Mr Farage as we speak.


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## Dando (Jun 4, 2019)

Pin-seeker said:



			The state of her ðŸ¤¢
		
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I bet her parents had to tie a steak around her neck so the family dog played with her


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			I bet her parents had to tie a steak around her neck so the family dog played with her
		
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You sure do help to dispel the myth of brexiteers being nasty pieces of judgemental trash...


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You sure do help to dispel the myth of brexiteers being nasty pieces of judgemental trash...
		
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Bit harsh Mark... argue the point, hell yes, but using words like "nasty pieces of judgemental trash...." kinda makes you look the same...?


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Bit harsh Mark... argue the point, hell yes, but using words like "nasty pieces of judgemental trash...." kinda makes you look the same...?
		
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Just seems harsh because Iâ€™ll say it to them rather than about them on another forum where theyâ€™ll never see it, a la them. 

And yea, Iâ€™ll be nasty where itâ€™s warranted and those involved have already shown the level of their thought processes.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Just seems harsh because Iâ€™ll say it to them rather than about them on another forum where theyâ€™ll never see it, a la them.

And yea, Iâ€™ll be nasty where itâ€™s warranted and those involved have already shown the level of their thought processes.
		
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What was it you said about the freedom of speech...? Quite rightly it comes with a responsibility to use it wisely, and that should include respectfully. I could say something glib, like the irony meter is on overload. When you use extremes to make a point, you yourself become an extremist, and in becoming an extremist you also get viewed in the same vein as those you wish to denigrate.


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What was it you said about the freedom of speech...? Quite rightly it comes with a responsibility to use it wisely, and that should include respectfully. I could say something glib, like the irony meter is on overload. When you use extremes to make a point, you yourself become an extremist, and in becoming an extremist you also get viewed in the same vein as those you wish to denigrate.
		
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I know that certain people are lost to any sort of rehabilitation in regards to their views of Brexit so entering any sort of debate is a fruitless endeavour. For people in that camp, Iâ€™ll easily sink into full on denigration because (in my opinion) itâ€™s all their views on that topic are worth. I make no apology for that. They believe theyâ€™re right, so theyâ€™ll pour equal scorn on me. 

On this particular issue, can you disagree with my assessment of what was said...


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## adam6177 (Jun 4, 2019)

Unfortunately the anti trump supporters seen today are deluded enough to believe that their extremist ways are justified ..... They don't see the irony.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I know that certain people are lost to any sort of rehabilitation in regards to their views of Brexit so entering any sort of debate is a fruitless endeavour. For people in that camp, Iâ€™ll easily sink into full on denigration because (in my opinion) itâ€™s all their views on that topic are worth. I make no apology for that. They believe theyâ€™re right, so theyâ€™ll pour equal scorn on me.

On this particular issue, can you disagree with my assessment of what was said...
		
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Yes I do disagree with your assessment. I see it a laddish behaviour, and not in the extreme way you do. I feel you take it too literally. However, I do find your response extreme, and displays a level of cynicism with life that is unhealthy.

There are zealots in both camps. I view both as peas in a pod.

There was a really good article in one of the papers over the weekend about how anything seems fair game in the debate and how respect has disappeared as each side ratchets it up trying to be top dog. People decry the circus that is Westminster, with all sides braying at each other, and then do that very same thing.

No one can take the higher moral ground if they do exactly the same thing. Calling people thick, racists etc just sees a metaphorical mirror held up in front of them.


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			No one can take the higher moral ground if they do exactly the same thing. Calling people thick, racists etc just sees a metaphorical mirror held up in front of them.
		
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If I asked you the simple question, which I will admit is based on opinion because there is no hard evidence to back it up, of â€œWho do you think are collectively more informed, intelligent and educated - people who voted for Brexit or people who voted against Brexit?â€ would you answer honestly?


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			If I asked you the simple question, which I will admit is based on opinion because there is no hard evidence to back it up, of â€œWho do you think are collectively more informed, intelligent and educated - people who voted for Brexit or people who voted against Brexit?â€ would you answer honestly?
		
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To get a sensible answer you need to ask a sensible question....


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			If I asked you the simple question, which I will admit is based on opinion because there is no hard evidence to back it up, of â€œWho do you think are collectively more informed, intelligent and educated - people who voted for Brexit or people who voted against Brexit?â€ would you answer honestly?
		
Click to expand...

I would answer honestly. I feel there are intelligent people in both camps. I also think that across the demographic, people voted for different reasons. Some intelligent Leavers have admitted that they expect to see the economy dip but in the long term they feel the UK would be better off out of the EU. Equally, we've all heard some rabid Leavers being interviewed on TV who are clearly racist thugs. I think many northerners have been let down by successive governments, many of which have championed EU funding for projects that have never got north of Watford Gap, who felt that the current European model isn't working for them.

And there are Remainers whose arrogance in pigeon holing Leavers as thick racists and that the old shouldn't be allowed to vote truly sicken me. Many base it on Guardian-esque headlines of how many degree holders voted Remain 'v' Leave without any definitive proof. Many Remainers argue that democracy will only be served by having a second referendum... that'll be the same democracy they want to use to take the vote off the older generation. Sounds like the start of the 4th Reich to me.

The Remain campaign was disappointingly poor(how intelligent was that) in not showing the true benefits of being in the EU AND the actual net contribution to the EU. Â£14bn paid. Rebate of almost Â£5bn suggests that the UK still pays a huge amount. By the time you look at the funding for projects, which many argue is the UK only getting its own money back, the actual net payment to the EU is just over Â£2bn.

At the end of the day people are trying to benchmark the quality of the decision based on intelligence, and I feel that sort of discrimination is ignorant.


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2019)

I see the EU has agreed funding aid to car plants in Slovakia, growing jobs there while JLR shed UK staff.

Bring on the USA trade deal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see the EU has agreed funding aid to car plants in Slovakia, growing jobs there while JLR shed UK staff.

Bring on the USA trade deal.
		
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What US trade deal ? There isnâ€™t one and I suspect anyone will be full of benefits for the US 

What do people think we will get from the US that will make us significantly better than any deal we would have done with the EU etc 

What do they have that will be easily transported across the big ocean ( as opposed to in lorries across the little sea ) ?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/06/04/business/uk-us-trade-deal-trump/index.html


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see the EU has agreed funding aid to car plants in Slovakia, growing jobs there while JLR shed UK staff.

Bring on the USA trade deal.
		
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Old news from Oct last year. â‚¬125m to JLR to stop(bribe) them to not take manufacturing to Mexico.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



*I know that certain people are lost to any sort of rehabilitation in regards to their views of Brexit so entering any sort of debate is a fruitless endeavour. *For people in that camp, Iâ€™ll easily sink into full on denigration because (in my opinion) itâ€™s all their views on that topic are worth. I make no apology for that. They believe theyâ€™re right, so theyâ€™ll pour equal scorn on me.

On this particular issue, can you disagree with my assessment of what was said...
		
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The part of your post picked out in Bold can be directed at yourself, you are entrenched in your views of Brexit. Your suggestion that those holding a different view to yours need rehabilitation but are lost to it smacks of a bigotry and arrogance beyond what one would expect in a level headed person.   You really need to reflect on your attitude and humanity.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What US trade deal ? There isnâ€™t one and I suspect anyone will be full of benefits for the US
		
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Of course there isnt one yet.  He said 'Bring it on'


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## larmen (Jun 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			This is a 'State' visit. Prince Harry, ...
		
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Trump talked s**t about his wife, and previously about his mother. Would you attend?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

larmen said:



			Trump talked s**t about his wife, and previously about his mother. Would you attend?
		
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If he wants to be financed by the tax payer he needs to step up to the plate


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If he wants to be financed by the tax payer he needs to step up to the plate
		
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I suggest serving his Country in Afghan is more than stepping up to the plate!
How many spineless brown nosing politicians have served their Country and put their life on the line like him? Farage? Johnson?


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## Tashyboy (Jun 4, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Unfortunately the anti trump supporters seen today are deluded enough to believe that their extremist ways are justified ..... They don't see the irony.
		
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As I said to Missis T when they started lobbing milk shakes about again. They don't see the irony.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			If I asked you the simple question, which I will admit is based on opinion because there is no hard evidence to back it up, of â€œWho do you think are collectively more informed, intelligent and educated - people who voted for Brexit or people who voted against Brexit?â€ would you answer honestly?
		
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Them facists screaming â€œNaziâ€ today seemed like your sort of people... intolerant and ignorant, probably remainers to a man/woman. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135920855396093952


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I suggest serving his Country in Afghan is more than stepping up to the plate!
How many spineless brown nosing politicians have served their Country and put their life on the line like him? Farage? Johnson?
		
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 Here you go again, why not mention Corbyn and whats milÃ try service got to do with his royal responsibilities.  Dont bite the hand that feeds you


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## Tashyboy (Jun 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I would answer honestly. I feel there are intelligent people in both camps. I also think that across the demographic, people voted for different reasons. Some intelligent Leavers have admitted that they expect to see the economy dip but in the long term they feel the UK would be better off out of the EU. Equally, we've all heard some rabid Leavers being interviewed on TV who are clearly racist thugs. I think many northerners have been let down by successive governments, many of which have championed EU funding for projects that have never got north of Watford Gap, who felt that the current European model isn't working for them.

And there are Remainers whose arrogance in pigeon holing Leavers as thick racists and that the old shouldn't be allowed to vote truly sicken me. Many base it on Guardian-esque headlines of how many degree holders voted Remain 'v' Leave without any definitive proof. Many Remainers argue that democracy will only be served by having a second referendum... that'll be the same democracy they want to use to take the vote off the older generation. Sounds like the start of the 4th Reich to me.

The Remain campaign was disappointingly poor(how intelligent was that) in not showing the true benefits of being in the EU AND the actual net contribution to the EU. Â£14bn paid. Rebate of almost Â£5bn suggests that the UK still pays a huge amount. By the time you look at the funding for projects, which many argue is the UK only getting its own money back, the actual net payment to the EU is just over Â£2bn.

At the end of the day people are trying to benchmark the quality of the decision based on intelligence, and I feel that sort of discrimination is ignorant.
		
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This all day long. And I would imagine that 99% of the population falls into these groups of people mentioned. The other 1% being those that know now what they didn't know then. Hmm degree in hindsight springs to mind.
The problem is with the EU remain or Brexit debate is for me. It is based on people's opinions. Facts seem to of been secondary. Predominantly, have I been affected by the EU. Some have some haven't. But it is based on people's experiences and opinions. However

When i worked in the pits/coal mining industry, from the day I started in 1979, to the day I finished in 2015, it was a constant battle with Labour and Tory governments to keep pits open, to keep a mining industry going. It was generally accepted that the miners won the battle in a sense that pits could run at a profit. But the Tories won the war because they didn't want Coal, and did everything they could to stack the odds against this country producing coal. Facts never entered into it. Protecting people's jobs and communities of a quarter of a million people never came into it

What I am trying to say is that it don't matter whether this country voted leave or remain. There are people in both camps and others that are prepared to lie, disregard democracy, have there own agenda or do whatever it takes to get there own way. Right or wrong dosent come into it. Remain or Brexit don't come into it. People, politicians have there own agenda. On that list you can put, in no order Cameron, May, Corbyn, Farage, Obama, Trump, Boris, Jimmy Krankie, etc etc. And 99% of the U.K. Have to deal with the shit that these people are peddling on a day to day basis.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 5, 2019)

Respect has to be earned...
It doesn't come with a job title...
Even POTUS...


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## Crazyface (Jun 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I would answer honestly. I feel there are intelligent people in both camps. I also think that across the demographic, people voted for different reasons. Some intelligent Leavers have admitted that they expect to see the economy dip but in the long term they feel the UK would be better off out of the EU. Equally, we've all heard some rabid Leavers being interviewed on TV who are clearly racist thugs. I think many northerners have been let down by successive governments, many of which have championed EU funding for projects that have never got north of Watford Gap, who felt that the current European model isn't working for them.

And there are Remainers whose arrogance in pigeon holing Leavers as thick racists and that the old shouldn't be allowed to vote truly sicken me. Many base it on Guardian-esque headlines of how many degree holders voted Remain 'v' Leave without any definitive proof. Many Remainers argue that democracy will only be served by having a second referendum... that'll be the same democracy they want to use to take the vote off the older generation. Sounds like the start of the 4th Reich to me.

*The Remain campaign was disappointingly poor(how intelligent was that)* in not showing the true benefits of being in the EU AND the actual net contribution to the EU. Â£14bn paid. Rebate of almost Â£5bn suggests that the UK still pays a huge amount. By the time you look at the funding for projects, which many argue is the UK only getting its own money back, the actual net payment to the EU is just over Â£2bn.

At the end of the day people are trying to benchmark the quality of the decision based on intelligence, and I feel that sort of discrimination is ignorant.
		
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Excellent post!!! Especially the bold bit. They were rubbish and it's their own fault we are where we are. also the Northern part of England have been left out of development for too long. All the money going into London, Cross Rail??? HS2 will never reach the North. Once at Birmingham funding will be withdrawn, leaving the North out of things again.
Donald would not left this happen. He's done just what he said he would, so will win again.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Here you go again, why not mention Corbyn and whats milÃ try service got to do with his royal responsibilities.  Dont bite the hand that feeds you
		
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You canâ€™t help it can you! 
Does Corbyn support Trump? Is Corbyn brown nosing Trump?

The irony of you accusing me of bringing Labour and Corbyn in to debate all the time is hilarious.

As for the â€œDonâ€™t bite the hands that feeds youâ€ thatâ€™s just pathetic.


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## Leftie (Jun 5, 2019)

Ye gods. Just how paranoid are Americans?

Just flown overhead - 1 x police helicopter, 2 x "Air Force 1" helicopters, 3 x Chinooks, 1 x police helicopter.

On their way up to London, I suppose, to take him somewhere.


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## Rooter (Jun 5, 2019)

Leftie said:



			Ye gods. Just how paranoid are Americans?

Just flown overhead - 1 x police helicopter, 2 x "Air Force 1" helicopters, 3 x Chinooks, 1 x police helicopter.

On their way up to London, I suppose, to take him somewhere.
		
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He is in Pompey today.

I watched the video posted above, my first thought was, do these people not have a job? what gives them the right to aggressively shout 'nazi scum' at a bloke? they are not as 'bad as him' they are a whole lot worse! An embarrassment to the country and themselves.


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Excellent post!!!....


Hobbit said:





Kellfire said:



			If I asked you the simple question, which I will admit is based on opinion because there is no hard evidence to back it up, of â€œWho do you think are collectively more informed, intelligent and educated - people who voted for Brexit or people who voted against Brexit?â€ would you answer honestly?
		
Click to expand...

I would answer honestly. I feel there are intelligent people in both camps. I also think that across the demographic, people voted for different reasons. Some intelligent Leavers have admitted that they expect to see the economy dip but in the long term they feel the UK would be better off out of the EU. Equally, we've all heard some rabid Leavers being interviewed on TV who are clearly racist thugs. I think many northerners have been let down by successive governments, many of which have championed EU funding for projects that have never got north of Watford Gap, who felt that the current European model isn't working for them.

And there are Remainers whose arrogance in pigeon holing Leavers as thick racists and that the old shouldn't be allowed to vote truly sicken me. Many base it on Guardian-esque headlines of how many degree holders voted Remain 'v' Leave without any definitive proof. Many Remainers argue that democracy will only be served by having a second referendum... that'll be the same democracy they want to use to take the vote off the older generation. Sounds like the start of the 4th Reich to me.
....

At the end of the day people are trying to benchmark the quality of the decision based on intelligence, and I feel that sort of discrimination is ignorant.
		
Click to expand...



Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the original question was bordering on the 'obscene'!


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## User62651 (Jun 5, 2019)

Once the decision (be that right or wrong) to offer a state visit was taken, we should not be out protesting against Trump and Corbyn/Cable/Khan etc should pipe down for a few days imo to let the visit pass. Trump won't be there forever and we should maintain respect for The Office of President at least whilst he's here. Conversely Trump should 'reel it in' and not be offering as much opinion/interference with our domestic politics either. 
Seems like if Brexit proceeds it weakens the EU and that is good news for the USA trading position in Trumps eyes, I'm sure that's why he's keen on Brexit - weaken his competitors, it's not for our benefit.
I guess May thought we'd have Brexited by the time of Trump's state visit so wanted to butter him up and boost his ego by offering that. Hasn't quite worked out like that of course. I believe only Dubya and Obama have been given state visits as sitting US Presidents, something of recent trend. Maybe it needs to stop.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You canâ€™t help it can you!
Does Corbyn support Trump? Is Corbyn brown nosing Trump?

The irony of you accusing me of bringing Labour and Corbyn in to debate all the time is hilarious.

As for the â€œDonâ€™t bite the hands that feeds youâ€ thatâ€™s just pathetic.
		
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You used Johnson and Farage as examples of people not serving in the armed forces, seems odd you never added Corby who would probably dissolve them.  Labour blinkers firmly in place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You used Johnson and Farage as examples of people not serving in the armed forces, seems odd you never added Corby who would probably dissolve them.  Labour blinkers firmly in place.
		
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Because they are his friends and his supporters! ffs how would using someone not brown nosing him help prove my point.

Are you also not answering â€œDonâ€™t bite the hand that feeds youâ€ or are saying all our Royal Family and their spouses are open to abuse from any foreign head of state? Are they all meant to be silent, emotionless, robots?


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## Kellfire (Jun 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, the original question was bordering on the 'obscene'!
		
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I can guess why youâ€™d take that particular view on the question.


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## gmc40 (Jun 5, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Excellent post!!! Especially the bold bit. They were rubbish and it's their own fault we are where we are. also the Northern part of England have been left out of development for too long. All the money going into London, Cross Rail??? HS2 will never reach the North. Once at Birmingham funding will be withdrawn, leaving the North out of things again.
Donald would not left this happen. He's done just what he said he would, so will win again.
		
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Liverpool has done well out of EU funding. Funding that they wouldnâ€™t have received from the government. I think your frustration is misplaced.


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I can guess why youâ€™d take that particular view on the question.
		
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Feel free to guess away!

In fact, I'll ask you directly....What is your 'guess'?


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## Kellfire (Jun 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Feel free to guess away!

In fact, I'll ask you directly....What is your 'guess'?
		
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My guess is that you know that the answer to my initial question is that the remain side is more educated, intelligent and informed.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			My guess is that you know that the answer to my initial question is that the remain side is more educated, intelligent and informed.
		
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Id say you may be able to make a case for reman having a greater collective of what people team as intelligence and education. Simply because more people than ever go on to uni nowadays and thatâ€™s how people seem to measure intelligence. 

For me though though, the most important factor when you make a decision is that you need to be informed, thatâ€™s generally going to be based on experiences. Now whoâ€™s most experienced? Older generations or youngsters?


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## Kellfire (Jun 5, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Id say you may be able to make a case for reman having a greater collective of what people team as intelligence and education. Simply because more people than ever go on to uni nowadays and thatâ€™s how people seem to measure intelligence.

For me though though, the most important factor when you make a decision is that you need to be informed, thatâ€™s generally going to be based on experiences. Now whoâ€™s most experienced? Older generations or youngsters?
		
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Information trumps experience and I think you know that deep down. Experience is clouded. Information is information.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Information trumps experience and I think you know that deep down. Experience is clouded. Information is information.
		
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So you asked for an honest answer and then when given it, still try to refute that it's an honest one by casting doubt on the on what I "know deep down"?

I tried....


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## IanM (Jun 5, 2019)

Not sure what Trump and all these Americans and Brits are doing commemorating D Day...... Mr Junker was quite clear in his speech recently that the EU defeated the Nazis!!


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## drdel (Jun 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			My guess is that you know that the answer to my initial question is that the remain side is more educated, intelligent and informed.
		
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You express an opinion for which you have no evidence. There are no metrics by which you can measure the collective intelligence and knowledge base of a subset of the UK's voting population. You are simply engaged in juvenile baiting.

Sometimes when thought to be a fool it is best to keep ones mouth shut rather than prove it beyond all doubt.


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## Kellfire (Jun 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			You express an opinion for which you have no evidence. There are no metrics by which you can measure the collective intelligence and knowledge base of a subset of the UK's voting population. You are simply engaged in juvenile baiting.

Sometimes when thought to be a fool it is best to keep ones mouth shut rather than prove it beyond all doubt.
		
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Youâ€™re easily upset.


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## Dando (Jun 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			You express an opinion for which you have no evidence. There are no metrics by which you can measure the collective intelligence and knowledge base of a subset of the UK's voting population. You are simply engaged in juvenile baiting.

Sometimes when thought to be a fool it is best to keep ones mouth shut rather than prove it beyond all doubt.
		
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it's like having Delc back!


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			My guess is that you know that the answer to my initial question is that the remain side is more educated, intelligent and informed.
		
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Don't forget, in your own words, in your opinion only.

But coming at this from a slightly different direction. There's enough info going around to almost definitively nail down that a greater majority of younger people voted Remain. And the "coming at it from a different direction" bit. Pretty much every Polytechnic college is now a university, and access to degree courses is almost infinity greater than 20-30 years ago. 

Therefore, it could be argued that the younger generation is better educated. Therefore that cross section of voters are more intelligent.

However, there is a Dept of Education document/graph/table that ranks degrees based on their subject/content and the date that the degree was attained. Some (current) degrees are equated with HND's/HNC's attained 20-30 years ago. And that moderating of qualifications also includes that HND's/HNC's attained now are equivalent to OND/ONC attained 20-30 years ago, and so the graph goes on. Its a doc heavily used by HR depts and recruiting managers. Equally, some modern degrees are at least on a par with some of the older ones. Yes the younger generation has greater access to more education, but better educated... my experience as a long term recruiter of anyone from warehouse operatives to 2nd level managers, no not really. There's good and bad in any age group - BTW, you'd be amazed at the amount of older people who continue their further education.

How do you rank intelligence? What defines it? I've interviewed some stunning candidates that have virtually no qualifications and some degree qualified people that I wouldn't trust with a school crossing. Those without the qualifications had intelligence but some of those with the education had little intelligence. Don't confuse intelligence with experience

Better informed; now you're being a little bit narrow minded. Does it not occur to you that everyone received the same information before the vote? So how were Remainers better informed? Did they receive secret information? That really is a silly point, "better informed."

At the end of the day, there is no way of accurately assessing how 33,000,000+ were educated in terms of how they voted. Ergo, its a stupid comment. Intelligence, and its application to specifics is subjective, e.g. a world class chef would make a lousy brain surgeon. Both able to apply their training in their field but both useless in another field - what is the specific for voting??? Better informed - stupid comment - all sides were given the same info. All were informed to the same level.

Are people who vote Labour 'v' Tory 'v' LibDem more stupid or more intelligent or better informed? Its a choice based on a preferred outcome, a political choice. I would prefer Remain but I respect the choice Leavers made and why they made those choices. Do I agree with them? No, not at all but I accept they made those choices based on their personal preferences and I respect them as individuals, as equals. I despair of the arrogance shown by many Remainers, believing their choice means they are the more intelligent/educated/informed. At best it shows a lack of respect, and I would equate it to Orwell's 1984 - "some are more equal than others."


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## Fade and Die (Jun 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Information trumps experience and I think you know that deep down. Experience is clouded. *Information is information.*

Click to expand...

â€œComputer says noâ€ mentality of a naive millennial in a nutshell right there. ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2019)

The arrogance displayed by some of the more vociferous Remainers makes me almost feel embarrassed that I  also voted Remain. 

A mature society would recognise that a decision has been made and act upon the result of the  referendum before moving on.

It would not, three years later, be claiming that  those who voted one way or the other were somehow intellectually or morally superior.


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			The arrogance displayed by some of the more vociferous Remainers makes me almost feel embarrassed that I  also voted Remain.

A mature society would recognise that a decision has been made and act upon the result of the  referendum before moving on.

It would not, three years later, be claiming that  those who voted one way or the other were somehow intellectually or morally superior.
		
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A huge big "like" with brass knobs on!!

We all know the zealot, obnoxious Leavers - the Robinsons and Farages. Sadly there are zealot Remainers who I'd equate them to.


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## gmc40 (Jun 5, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Id say you may be able to make a case for reman having a greater collective of what people team as intelligence and education. Simply because more people than ever go on to uni nowadays and thatâ€™s how people seem to measure intelligence.

For me though though, the most important factor when you make a decision is that you need to be informed, thatâ€™s generally going to be based on experiences. Now whoâ€™s most experienced? Older generations or youngsters?
		
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Experience counts for nothing. My parents are experienced, both voted leave, both didnâ€™t have a clue!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Experience counts for nothing. My parents are experienced, both voted leave, both didnâ€™t have a clue!
		
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Because they didnâ€™t vote the way you wanted?


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Experience counts for nothing. My parents are experienced, both voted leave, both didnâ€™t have a clue!
		
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"Experience counts for nothing..."

If you were seeing a fire for the first time, and reached into it and burned your hand would you reach into it a second time? Your experience would suggest it would be a stupid idea.

So experience counts for nothing does it? Your statement that suggest it counts for nothing is........ not very well thought out is it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2019)

Think it was shown that education was a strong indicator of how someone voted in brexit.  How people will interpret that will be based on the conclusion they want to reach.   http://www.statsguy.co.uk/brexit-voting-and-education/


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			My guess is that you know that the answer to my initial question is that the remain side is more educated, intelligent and informed.
		
Click to expand...

Well, your guess is wrong!

Btw. What has any of that got to do with anything - in a democracy?!


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think it was shown that education was a strong indicator of how someone voted in brexit.  How people will interpret that will be based on the conclusion they want to reach.   http://www.statsguy.co.uk/brexit-voting-and-education/

Click to expand...

"One important caveat with all these analyses of course is that they are based on aggregate data for electoral wards rather than individual data, so they may be subject to the ecological fallacy. We know that wards with a high percentage of graduates are more likely to have voted remain, but we donâ€™t know whether individuals with degrees are more likely to have voted remain. It seems reasonably likely that that would also be true, but *we canâ€™t conclude it with certainty from the data here.* 

To be honest, Iâ€™m not sure these results are what I expected to see. I think itâ€™s worth reiterating the caveat above about the ecological fallacy. We do not know whether individuals of higher socioeconomic status are more likely to vote leave after adjusting for education. All we can say is that electoral wards with a higher proportion of people of high SES are more likely to vote leave after adjusting for the proportion of people in that ward with degree level education.

But with those caveats in mind, it certainly seems as if it is a more educated population first and foremost which predicts a higher remain vote, and not a population of higher socioeconomic status."

The above is taken from the conclusions in piece. I've highlighted something *HE* says. 

Also, it would appear he's saying that more successful people would vote Leave than better educated people. If education doesn't make you successful, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to vote... I don't think the piece defines it very well either way. A bit like a poll really. If its close, the assumption drawn from it might be inaccurate.

What I found striking from the recent EU elections was the map the Beeb produced showing virtually the whole of England being blue. No north 'v' south divide, nothing based on education etc etc.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think it was shown that education was a strong indicator of how someone voted in brexit.  How people will interpret that will be based on the conclusion they want to reach.   http://www.statsguy.co.uk/brexit-voting-and-education/

Click to expand...

â€œNever confuse education with intelligence.â€ So the saying goes. You ever seen teachers on eggheads or the chase? Embarrassing.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 5, 2019)

Of course, generally speaking, people that voted Remain had higher levels of education than those that voted Leave. I don't think that there can be any argument about this with the agreed trend seeming to be that younger people were more likely to vote remain and older people were more likely to vote leave. 

In 1950 around 3% of the population went to university. By 2010 this was around 43%. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if younger people are voting one way and older people are voting the opposite way the stats will show that the younger voting group had a higher level of education. Of course they did. Someone born in June 1995 had far more opportunity to go to university to get that higher education than someone born in 1945. 

To equate the accident of when someone was born to them being more intelligent is, to put it quite bluntly, stupid. It's like me saying that people born in 1920 were far braver than those born in 1960 because those born into the earlier group stood up and fought against the Nazis and those born into the second group didn't.


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## gmc40 (Jun 5, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Because they didnâ€™t vote the way you wanted?
		
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Trust me, I know them well enough to make that statement. They arenâ€™t stupid and theyâ€™ve worked hard their whole lives running small business but theyâ€™re getting older and people of that age group are easier to mislead.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2019)

Steroty


gmc40 said:



			Trust me, I know them well enough to make that statement. They arenâ€™t stupid and theyâ€™ve worked hard their whole lives running small business but theyâ€™re getting older and people of that age group are easier to mislead.
		
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Whilst we're sticking to stereotypes. My fb was full of support for Love Island this week. Surprisingly all 20 something's. If that's what all the youngsters are interested in then they're not winning any points from me in regards to good judgement calls.....


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## gmc40 (Jun 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"Experience counts for nothing..."

If you were seeing a fire for the first time, and reached into it and burned your hand would you reach into it a second time? Your experience would suggest it would be a stupid idea.

So experience counts for nothing does it? Your statement that suggest it counts for nothing is........ not very well thought out is it.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ll accept it was a poor choice of wording, should have said age means nothing and their experience on planet earth didnâ€™t help them to make an informed decision.


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## gmc40 (Jun 5, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Steroty

Whilst we're sticking to stereotypes. My fb was full of support for Love Island this week. Surprisingly all 20 something's. If that's what all the youngsters are interested in then they're not winning any points from me in regards to good judgement calls.....
		
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Most of the LI fans on my FB are 30 something females. Although Iâ€™m getting on so not many 20 somethings on my FB.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Most of the LI fans on my FB are 30 something females. Although Iâ€™m getting on so not many 20 somethings on my FB.
		
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I agree re 30yr females getting excited over the lokks of the young lads. But it's the 20 odds I know that idolise the "stars".....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Iâ€™ll accept it was a poor choice of wording, should have said age means nothing and their experience on planet earth didnâ€™t help them to make an informed decision.
		
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The arrogance keeps on coming!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2019)

Christ are people still throwing labels at each other because how they voted - itâ€™s clear there are a small percentage of idiots on either side of the vote.


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## user2010 (Jun 5, 2019)

This thread is comedy gold.


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## gmc40 (Jun 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			The arrogance keeps on coming!
		
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Thanks


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:





MetalMickie said:



			The arrogance keeps on coming!
		
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Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps proof that MM's post was appropriate!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because they are his friends and his supporters! ffs how would using someone not brown nosing him help prove my point.

Are you also not answering â€œDonâ€™t bite the hand that feeds youâ€ or are saying all our Royal Family and their spouses are open to abuse from any foreign head of state? Are they all meant to be silent, emotionless, robots?
		
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Our Royals are public servants and as such should be neutral in politics. I dont care what their personal prejudices are,  if they want to be heads of state then put up or push off.  The Queen is a good example of how they should behave.


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Christ* are people still throwing labels at each other because how they voted - itâ€™s clear there are a small percentage of idiots on either side of the vote.
		
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Please don't bring HIM into a thread about Trump!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps proof that MM's post was appropriate!
		
Click to expand...

It surprises me that the forum intelligentsia cannot see that a "wrong" decision can still be an informed decision. 

Different people interpret the same information in different ways. Each then makes a decision and each of those decisions is informed. 

Simple to understand I would have thought.


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Our Royals are public servants and as such should be neutral in politics. I dont care what their personal prejudices are,  if they want to be heads of state then put up or push off.  The Queen is a good example of how they should behave.
		
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While I'd suggest that 'pudlic servants' is not the orrect term, I'd agree with the rest. They are (also) public assets! There's an agreed funding arrangement that works to the benefit of UK government and to the convenience of the Royals.


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## gmc40 (Jun 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps proof that MM's post was appropriate!
		
Click to expand...

Not you as well ðŸ¤¦â€


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Our Royals are public servants and as such should be neutral in politics. I dont care what their personal prejudices are,  if they want to be heads of state then put up or push off.  The Queen is a good example of how they should behave.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...test-news-Harry-William-donald-trump-UK-visit

Harry has been around at the state events but seems they are not going to pander to him trying to use them as a publicity to boost his popularity- and donâ€™t blame Megan for going nowhere near the sexist idiot

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48505300

Also have to ask what makes him qualified to blurt out statements about Brexit and the Irish Border - nothing to do with him


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## Foxholer (Jun 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			It surprises me that the* forum intelligentsia* cannot see that a "wrong" decision can still be an informed decision.

Different people interpret the same information in different ways. Each then makes a decision and each of those decisions is informed.

Simple to understand I would have thought.
		
Click to expand...

Now that's an 'interesting' expression! Perhaps even a misnomer given the, correct imo, context!

Btw. I agree!


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## Dando (Jun 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...test-news-Harry-William-donald-trump-UK-visit

Harry has been around at the state events but seems they are not going to pander to him trying to use them as a publicity to boost his popularity- and donâ€™t blame Megan for going nowhere near the sexist idiot

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48505300

Also have to ask what makes him qualified to blurt out statements about Brexit and the Irish Border - nothing to do with him
		
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It had nothing to do with obama either but it didn't stop him stirring


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Christ are people still throwing labels at each other* because how they voted - itâ€™s clear *there are a small percentage of idiots on either side of the vote*.
		
Click to expand...

Another irony meter overload ðŸ™„


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Our Royals are public servants and as such should be neutral in politics. I dont care what their personal prejudices are,  if they want to be heads of state then put up or push off.  The Queen is a good example of how they should behave.
		
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Youâ€™re an embarrassment, Harry and William didnâ€™t ask to born in to the Royal Family and have both served their Country proudly as well as raising millions for charities etc and youâ€™re saying they should take their wives being abused as part of the job! Get a grip.
No one, regardless of position, has a right to abuse members of our Royal Family or any Family for that matter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another irony meter overload ðŸ™„
		
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And you must be lacking in mirrors in your own house because you constantly fail to look into you and see the issues your own attitude has caused on here. You are a hypocrite - you constantly point fingers at others but fail to see your own actions , you post believing you are a higher authority than people who voted to remain and have plenty of times thrown labels at those that did vote to remain. You are no better than others


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2019)

ÃŒ



Liverpoolphil said:



			And you must be lacking in mirrors in your own house because you constantly fail to look into you and see the issues your own attitude has caused on here. You are a hypocrite - you constantly point fingers at others but fail to see your own actions , you post believing you are a higher authority than people who voted to remain and have plenty of times thrown labels at those that did vote to remain. You are no better than others
		
Click to expand...

 The meter just exploded ðŸ¤¯ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1136290925368500227
Think we can all agree there's a lot of wisdom and experience here


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2019)




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## JamesR (Jun 5, 2019)

Nice trousers ðŸ¤£

Whatâ€™s happened to his feet, theyâ€™re smaller than his handsðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 6, 2019)

Iâ€™ve just had a deleting session of posts throwing around childish insults.

Infractions will be given out if there is a repeat.


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Iâ€™ve just had a deleting session of posts throwing around childish insults.

Infractions will be given out if there is a repeat.
		
Click to expand...

Politics or football?
I miss all the fun


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## Tashyboy (Jun 8, 2019)

Say what you want against Trump. He has ways of getting things done. His stance against Mexico allowing illegal migrants entering USA has worked.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Say what you want against Trump. He has ways of getting things done. His stance against Mexico allowing illegal migrants entering USA has worked.
		
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Has it worked ? Have they stopped trying to enter. Looking at a chart the other day - they level of immigrants from Mexico dropped steadily from 2000 until Trumps first year and now back on the rise 

And he threatened Mexico with tariffs on goods - not exactly a great way and all Mexico will do is add a few more police officers etc 

Mexico is one of the US biggest trading partner - he is playing with fire again


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has it worked ? Have they stopped trying to enter. Looking at a chart the other day - they level of immigrants from Mexico dropped steadily from 2000 until Trumps first year and now back on the rise

And he threatened Mexico with tariffs on goods - not exactly a great way and all Mexico will do is add a few more police officers etc

Mexico is one of the US biggest trading partner - he is playing with fire again
		
Click to expand...

I think he meant to say â€œsay what you want about Trump; heâ€™ll tell you that heâ€™s got things doneâ€


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## spongebob59 (Jul 5, 2019)

A new level in stupidity 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1147099978478903297


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2019)

Trump will not be happy at what the UK Ambassador has said about him - because no matter what others might say to the contrary, Trump knows - and the truth hurts...but he will 'facade' it.


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2019)

What sort of idiot put stuff like that in writing. Such an arrogant food should not be representing the UK.


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## Kellfire (Jul 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			What sort of idiot put stuff like that in writing. Such an arrogant food should not be representing the UK.
		
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Iâ€™m happier knowing that this ambassador judged Trump so well.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			What sort of idiot put stuff like that in writing. Such an arrogant food should not be representing the UK.
		
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It's actually his job to give honest appraisals of a govt and its leader. Memo's like these will be written all of the time about govts all over the world. They are secret though, not for public consumption. The ambassador has done nothing wrong, his appraisal sounds pretty accurate and in synch with other comments about the workings of the Trump White House. The issue here is whoever leaked it. They are in major trouble as secret reports like these have to stay confidential.


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's actually his job to give honest appraisals of a govt and its leader. Memo's like these will be written all of the time about govts all over the world. They are secret though, not for public consumption. The ambassador has done nothing wrong, his appraisal sounds pretty accurate and in synch with other comments about the workings of the Trump White House. The issue here is whoever leaked it. They are in major trouble as secret reports like these have to stay confidential.
		
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Spot on. The alternative was to say Trumpty, Trump, Trump, trump is a lovely warm cuddly bear.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Iâ€™m happier knowing that this ambassador judged Trump so well.
		
Click to expand...

Not really like he just discovered the laws of momentum and do we believe the UK government dont already know how the White House operates; I wouldnt mind his salary to point out the blazing  obvious.  There has been far too much leaking of classified information in recent times and it seems like people do it with immunity.  This mole needs rooting out and punishing whatever level they operate at.


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's actually his job to give honest appraisals of a govt and its leader. Memo's like these will be written all of the time about govts all over the world. They are secret though, not for public consumption. The ambassador has done nothing wrong, his appraisal sounds pretty accurate and in synch with other comments about the workings of the Trump White House. The issue here is whoever leaked it. They are in major trouble as secret reports like these have to stay confidential.
		
Click to expand...

Memos like this aren't written "all the time". Most will be in diplomatic language well understood by the target audience. This is just an example of arrogant, loose phraseology. If he wasn't so blinded by self importance he would have jacked up the security classification well beyond 'in confidence'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1148298496140820480

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1148298497189392384
Sometimes I pity the US people having to put up with him but then I think - well you voted him in , you get what you want.

Oh how the UK will be when we get the English version


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Iâ€™m happier knowing that this ambassador judged Trump so well.
		
Click to expand...

He can hardly knock the security in the White House, best get his/our house in order.


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## gmc40 (Jul 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			What sort of idiot put stuff like that in writing. Such an arrogant food should not be representing the UK.
		
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Speaking of idiots putting stuff in writing;







What an absolute bellend!


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			What sort of idiot put stuff like that in writing. Such an arrogant food should not be representing the UK.
		
Click to expand...

He was almosr certainly asked/required to do so! t is, after all, an essential part of his (ex?) job!

The problem was rhat it got leaked!!

Trump's response was entirely predictable - and, imo, appropriate! And I detest Trump!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1148298496140820480

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1148298497189392384
Sometimes I pity the US people having to put up with him but then I think - well you voted him in , you get what you want.

Oh how the UK will be when we get the English version
		
Click to expand...

Democracy comes at a price. A price we all should be prepared to pay irrespective of the outcomes.

Trump is loved by very large numbers of people in the USA and they have the right to hold these emotions.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not really like he just discovered the laws of momentum and do we believe the UK government dont already know how the White House operates; I wouldnt mind his salary to point out the blazing  obvious.  There has been far too much leaking of classified information in recent times and it seems like people do it with immunity.  This mole needs rooting out and punishing whatever level they operate at.
		
Click to expand...

Gavin Williamson, sacked for 'leaking', is strongly rumoured to be in line for a seat in a Boris cabinet...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Gavin Williamson, sacked for 'leaking', is strongly rumoured to be in line for a seat in a Boris cabinet...
		
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Are you accusing Williamson for leaking information. Has he been found guilty of doing that?


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you accusing Williamson for leaking information. Has he been found guilty of doing that?
		
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Hopefully you'll be calling for his head when he gets the gig...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Hopefully you'll be calling for his head when he gets the gig...
		
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If its proved he did leak information then yes, he should expect to be punished severely.  You say 'when'  Do you have some insider information or is that unfounded tittle-tattle?


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			He was almosr certainly asked/required to do so! t is, after all, an essential part of his (ex?) job!

The problem was rhat it got leaked!!

Trump's response was entirely predictable - and, imo, appropriate! And I detest Trump!
		
Click to expand...

No his problem was using stupid language! 

It was not an informative or perceptive briefing as he simply repeated stuff anyone could read in the press


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			No his problem was using stupid language!

It was not an informative or perceptive briefing as he simply repeated stuff anyone could read in the press
		
Click to expand...

The ambassador is neutral and has genuine access to the White House machine. His views clarify and confirm the situation. That they coincide with the rumours, the press etc is more worrying for America.


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2019)

Ambassador should never say what he said publicly. 

Trump replied with his usual _toddler's hissy fit_ on Twitter.

The default position is to ignore one and go on about the other.   

Crikey I am glad I dont work in the White House Communications Team!!


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The ambassador is neutral and has genuine access to the White House machine. His views clarify and confirm the situation. That they coincide with the rumours, the press etc is more worrying for America.
		
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No he didn't confirm anything other than prove his poor judgement derived of his own self importance. This was not using his unique position of access to provide otherwise unknown and time relevant material. His remarks were little more than tittle tattle. You really cannot defend such a waste of time and the crass stupidity of putting such phrases in an official briefing.

Just because Trump is a 'marmite' personality does not mean one of our highest ranking representatives should be given leeway to behave in a totally juvenile and unprofessional way.

He's been caught out by his own silliness and should resign.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 10, 2019)

IanM said:



*Ambassador should never say what he said publicly.*

Trump replied with his usual _toddler's hissy fit_ on Twitter.

The default position is to ignore one and go on about the other.  

Crikey I am glad I dont work in the White House Communications Team!!
		
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He didn't. What he said was in private and confidential memo's.

Couldn't agree more with your last sentence


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2019)

No such thing as a confidential memo in Government.


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			No such thing as a confidential memo in Government.
		
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Exactly - he should have raised its security classification. But since the 'briefing' held no sensitive data, decision relevant or time dependent information on stuff Trump was doing: the guy was just sounding off and all he has shown is his own poor judgement in the process.


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## Kellfire (Jul 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Exactly - he should have raised its security classification. But since the 'briefing' held no sensitive data, decision relevant or time dependent information on stuff Trump was doing: the guy was just sounding off and all he has shown is his own poor judgement in the process.
		
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Poor judgment? He got it spot on.


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Poor judgment? He got it spot on.
		
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Judgement of process, not necessarily of content......


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## Kellfire (Jul 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			Judgement of process, not necessarily of content......
		
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He did his job as instructed according to all the experts Iâ€™ve seen comment who actually know what these ambassadors do.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			He did his job as instructed according to all the experts Iâ€™ve seen comment who actually know what these ambassadors do.
		
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He has now 'fallen on his sword' and resigned.

Only sensible action imo - regrettably. Continuing would cause UK problems and that cannot be allowed to happen.

A 'bump' to The Lords as part of May's leaving honours would be a 'nice' touch and 2 fingers to Trump - 1 from May; 1 from Sir Kim!


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			He did his job as instructed according to all the experts Iâ€™ve seen comment who actually know what these ambassadors do.
		
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Clearly not, following the news update.  The "expert" I was in the pub with last night offered Â£50 on a resignation by the end of the week.... I can't see where a comment by an ambassador slagging off the administration of an ally wouldn't require the boot!  (as I mentioned earlier, there is a separation of protocol and anyone's opinion of Trump)


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			He has now 'fallen on his sword' and resigned.

Only sensible action imo - regrettably. Continuing would cause UK problems and that cannot be allowed to happen.

A 'bump' to The Lords as part of May's leaving honours would be a 'nice' touch and 2 fingers to Trump - 1 from May; 1 from Sir Kim! 

Click to expand...

Why stick two fingers up at Trump? Does it make you feel good. He is the USA's elected head.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Why stick two fingers up at Trump? Does it make you feel good. He is the USA's elected head.
		
Click to expand...

He thinks the man should be given a peerage for poor diplomacy.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Why stick two fingers up at Trump? Does it make you feel good. He is the USA's elected head.
		
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Having Trump as USA's elected head most certainly does not make ME feel good! S*** scared actually!


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He thinks the man should be given a peerage for poor diplomacy.
		
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Twaddle!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2019)

My understanding of what Ambassadors do in respect of commenting upon individuals, in the way our ex-US Ambassador has been advising on Trump, is to gather and consolidate views commonly held by experienced US and other commentators and those close to the White House in some way, and provide that to the UK government.  My understanding is that they aim to keep their own views out of these briefings.  But I am only reporting what I have heard.  This is not my opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!
		
Click to expand...

Twaddle!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Having Trump as USA's elected head most certainly does not make ME feel good! S*** scared actually!
		
Click to expand...

Twaddle!!!


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## Kellfire (Jul 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			Clearly not, following the news update.  The "expert" I was in the pub with last night offered Â£50 on a resignation by the end of the week.... I can't see where a comment by an ambassador slagging off the administration of an ally wouldn't require the boot!  (as I mentioned earlier, there is a separation of protocol and anyone's opinion of Trump)
		
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Nope. He did his job as instructed and is now playing the game, sadly. Itâ€™s pathetic but weâ€™ve bent over for Trump because weâ€™re hoping the USA will go gentle after Brexit.

We really are a laughing stock of a nation to the point where Trump can bully us around.

All because of Brexit. Shameful.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 11, 2019)

More to do with Trump than Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Nope. He did his job as instructed and is now playing the game, sadly. Itâ€™s pathetic but weâ€™ve bent over for Trump because weâ€™re hoping the USA will go gentle after Brexit.

We really are a laughing stock of a nation to the point where Trump can bully us around.

All because of Brexit. Shameful.
		
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Its nothing to do with  Brexit.   Do you honestly expect the UK to jeopardise relations with the USA over this memo.  The problem is not what was written but that it was leaked, in these circumstances people get shafted in the backfire, it's the Mole that needs screwing.


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## Kellfire (Jul 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its nothing to do with  Brexit.   Do you honestly expect the UK to jeopardise relations with the USA over this memo.  The problem is not what was written but that it was leaked, in these circumstances people get shafted in the backfire, it's the Mole that needs screwing.
		
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Brexit is the reason this is all happening, possibly. If Farage gets the job instead itâ€™s clear it was a set up job.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			All because of Brexit. Shameful.
		
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Ah, lets blame Brexit!  The NLP is working!

Slagging off the administration of the country in which you are serving, is a sacking offence.  Civil Service Code is absolutely clear about it.  Resigned to protect pension....


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## Kellfire (Jul 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			Ah, lets blame Brexit!  The NLP is working!

Slagging off the administration of the country in which you are serving, is a sacking offence.  Civil Service Code is absolutely clear about it.  Resigned to protect pension....
		
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Itâ€™s sad that you truly think what youâ€™re saying is reasonable and correct.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2019)

Are you familiar with the Code? Any one else who has worked in the Civil Service want to confirm?

One of my team was fired for "liking" something "deemed" inappropriate on Facebook....... bit like to Top Shop CEO dumped for calling his customers peasants!


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## drdel (Jul 11, 2019)

The ambassador's comments were 'off piste' now he's pi***d off before being pushed.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2019)

Hey, Iâ€™m only a freelance, just showed this to a 30 year Civil Servant who quipped, â€œyouâ€™d hope a guy in the Diplomatic Service would be, um, more diplomatic!â€


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## Kellfire (Jul 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			Hey, Iâ€™m only a freelance, just showed this to a 30 year Civil Servant who quipped, â€œyouâ€™d hope a guy in the Diplomatic Service would be, um, more diplomatic!â€
		
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You continuing to push your opinion based on a complete lack of knowledge of the role of an ambassador.


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## IanM (Jul 11, 2019)

No.  You reject my view based on a demonstrated lack of knowledge of the Civil Service Code.....motivated I guess by a hatred of Trump.

You said its sad I think what I said is correct.  I am commenting on a code of conduct I've signed.  Which bit of that isn't true?

But let's agree to disagree


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## drdel (Jul 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			Hey, Iâ€™m only a freelance, just showed this to a 30 year Civil Servant who quipped, â€œyouâ€™d hope a guy in the Diplomatic Service would be, um, more diplomatic!â€
		
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Yup. Not long ago the British Diplomats were well known for their mastery of the ability to use non-offensive language to be extremely insulting; Darroch clearly missed that bit of the training.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You continuing to push your opinion based on a complete lack of knowledge of the role of an ambassador.
		
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Please educate us on your specific knowledge of the role of an ambassador.  I assume by your comments you have suitable experience backed with expert knowledge.  I am genuinely interested in your explanation.


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## Kellfire (Jul 14, 2019)

Some blatant racism from everyoneâ€™s favourite oaf today, telling congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from.


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## Beezerk (Jul 14, 2019)

Yawn.


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## Crazyface (Jul 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Some blatant racism from everyoneâ€™s favourite oaf today, telling congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from.
		
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I'm a big fan of DT, but even I think this is a VERY bad move by him.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 15, 2019)

for those who haven't seen the tweets :

So interesting to see â€œProgressiveâ€ Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly...... ....and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why donâ€™t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how.... ....it is done. These places need your help badly, you canâ€™t leave fast enough. Iâ€™m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!


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## Robster59 (Jul 15, 2019)

Terrible comments, far worse than those by the Ambassador, but he'll not go as he's too full of his own self-importance.  Unless he's actually impeached.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2019)

Robster59 said:



			Terrible comments, far worse than those by the Ambassador, but he'll not go as he's too full of his own self-importance.  Unless he's actually impeached.

Click to expand...

and some folks just yawn...


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## Old Skier (Jul 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You continuing to push your opinion based on a complete lack of knowledge of the role of an ambassador.
		
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Be interested to know which embassy you have worked in and which ambassador you worked with to acquire your knowledge.


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## ger147 (Jul 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			for those who haven't seen the tweets :

So interesting to see â€œProgressiveâ€ Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly...... ....and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why donâ€™t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how.... ....it is done. These places need your help badly, you canâ€™t leave fast enough. Iâ€™m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!
		
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Re. folks going back to where they came from, what time is Melania's flight to Slovenia?


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## patricks148 (Jul 16, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Re. folks going back to where they came from, what time is Melania's flight to Slovenia?
		
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or better still cut trump in half and send one bit to Germany the other to Lewis


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Re. folks going back to where they came from, what time is Melania's flight to Slovenia?
		
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ah but Melanie does not criticise.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 16, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Be interested to know which embassy you have worked in and which ambassador you worked with to acquire your knowledge.
		
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I know a deputy ambassador who has covered 3 or 4 European countries if that counts. And they said that what he did was pretty standard stuff.  Assessments are being made about governments/administrations all the time and indeed there will be many assessments in embassies in the UK painting a not very favourable picture of how we have governed ourselves over the last 3 years. It's just that usually they do not have to write such 'explicit stuff' as in most cases the leaders of leading countries behave in a relatively statesmanlike manner, and they normally write such things in an expectation that it wont leaked, potentially for political purposes. But as with lots of things nowadays, the old rules seem to be ripped up and we are in uncharted territory.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I know a deputy ambassador who has covered 3 or 4 European countries if that counts. And they said that what he did was pretty standard stuff.  Assessments are being made about governments/administrations all the time and indeed there will be many assessments in embassies in the UK painting a not very favourable picture of how we have governed ourselves over the last 3 years. It's just that usually they do not have to write such 'explicit stuff' as in most cases the leaders of leading countries behave in a relatively statesmanlike manner, and they normally write such things in an expectation that it wont leaked, potentially for political purposes. But as with lots of things nowadays, the old rules seem to be ripped up and we are in uncharted territory.
		
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Do you honestly think he revealed anything more than Hogies mate down the pub could have told us.  Talk about money for old rope.   He could have just said "You know what he's like"


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## User62651 (Jul 17, 2019)

So is The Donald now officially a racist? Think that's what the House of Rep has determined with that vote to condemn yesterday. 

Or just a Democrat led conspiracy?


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## Norrin Radd (Jul 17, 2019)

how deep has the hole got to be before they bury Trump ,he keeps digging and nobody has the guts to backfill it on top of him . 
god forbid a second term of office.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 17, 2019)

The problem is Trump is appealing to that vast range of racist White supremacists bigots in the US - the country is still awash with racism and segregation and they have a President that will embody that


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## Dan2501 (Jul 17, 2019)

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4154484/1/katie-johnson-v-donald-j-trump/


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 17, 2019)

If the Democrats engage their brains and put up even a half decent candidate then there must be enough Americans who will be embarrassed by Trump that they will vote him out. If they put someone up who is on the left of the party then I think he will get in again. Core Trump voters will back him whatever. It is the people in the middle that will jump ship if there is a decent alternative.

It is a big election for the US.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So is The Donald now officially a racist? Think that's what the House of Rep has determined with that vote to condemn yesterday.

Or just a Democrat led conspiracy?
		
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Both!


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

Dan2501 said:



https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4154484/1/katie-johnson-v-donald-j-trump/

Click to expand...

I trust you realise that she withdrew that accusation in November 2016. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ty-DROPS-case-casting-doubt-truth-claims.html


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## Dan2501 (Jul 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you realise that she withdrew that accusation in November 2016. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ty-DROPS-case-casting-doubt-truth-claims.html

Click to expand...

I do, and I trust you realise that her attorney admitted the reason she withdrew the accusation was because she was receiving death threats?

Trump and Epstein, a man who has a previous conviction for soliciting a 14-year old for prostitution and was recently arrested on sex-trafficing charges, have been pictured together, they were good friends. Trump was quoted as saying:




			â€œHeâ€™s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.â€
		
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But, you know, she withdrew her lawsuit, so it definitely didn't happen. Despite being corroborated by Epstein's "party planner", Trump being close friends with him and flying on his jet multiple times. 

Also, this isn't the only lawsuit of this nature out there: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4524664/doe-v-trump/ What a surprise this was was also "voluntarily dismissed".


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

Dan2501 said:



			I do, and I trust you realise that her attorney admitted the reason she withdrew the accusation was because she was receiving death threats?

Trump and Epstein, a man who has a previous conviction for soliciting a 14-year old for prostitution and was recently arrested on sex-trafficing charges, have been pictured together, they were good friends. Trump was quoted as saying:



But, you know, she withdrew her lawsuit, so it definitely didn't happen. Despite being corroborated by Epstein's "party planner", Trump being close friends with him and flying on his jet multiple times.

Also, this isn't the only lawsuit of this nature out there: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4524664/doe-v-trump/ What a surprise this was was also "voluntarily dismissed".
		
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While I detest Trump, I'm also a believer in the Rule of Law - and the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'! Are you?

Hearsay, or even things lawyers might say to a court, do not necessarily constitute 'truth', and certainly not 'proof of guilt'!

Of course, Epstein HAS been convicted! But, again, association with a convicted man doesn't consrtitute proof of the same crime. Just poor judgement (imo)!


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## Dan2501 (Jul 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I detest Trump, I'm also a believer in the Rule of Law - and the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'! Are you?

Hearsay, or even things lawyers might say to a court, do not necessarily constitute 'truth', and certainly not 'proof of guilt'!

Of course, Epstein HAS been convicted! But, again, association with a convicted man doesn't consrtitute proof of the same crime. Just poor judgement (imo)!
		
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I am, but in circumstances like these where Trump has the money and the power to bury this testimony and threaten victims into silence I struggle to believe there is no smoke without fire, especially in the face of multiple corroborated lawsuits where he and Epstein were named as co-plaintiffs that have both been buried in the same way. His connections to Epstein, and quote from 2002 really don't help his case, as are previous comments he has made in regards to grabbing women. It's not like these accusations have come completely out of the blue and are completely random and out of character, there are so many stories and reports linking Trump to behaviour like this.

Also seems pretty co-incidental that as soon as these reports start to come out and make news headlines, he decides to go on a racist tirade on Twitter to distract everyone and get them talking about that instead.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

Dan2501 said:



			I am...
		
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Good!



Dan2501 said:



			...but in circumstances like these where Trump has the money and the power to bury this testimony and threaten victims into silence I struggle to believe there is no smoke without fire...
		
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So not really!

And you appear to opening both yourself and GM up to some serious legal recourse![/QUOTE]


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## Dan2501 (Jul 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And you appear to opening both yourself and GM up to some serious legal recourse!
		
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How'd you work that out? I've shared some freely available legal documents, depositions from two trials that explicitly name him, quotes from Trump himself and previously proven accusations against him. What exactly does that open me up to?


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

Dan2501 said:



			How'd you work that out? I've shared some freely available legal documents, depositions from two trials that explicitly name him, quotes from Trump himself and previously proven accusations against him. *What exactly does that open me up to?*

Click to expand...

If you can't see - from the extract from your post that  have quoted above - there's no point me telling you!


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## Dan2501 (Jul 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			If you can't see - from the extract from your post that  have quoted above - there's no point me telling you!
		
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How helpful of you.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the Democrats engage their brains and put up even a half decent candidate then there must be enough Americans who will be embarrassed by Trump that they will vote him out. If they put someone up who is on the left of the party then I think he will get in again. Core Trump voters will back him whatever. It is the people in the middle that will jump ship if there is a decent alternative.

It is a big election for the US.
		
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The Democrats need to wake up to the fact you need the support of the wider electorate not just the party faithful to get into office...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The Democrats need to wake up to the fact you need the support of the wider electorate not just the party faithful to get into office...
		
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Well - Trump has never got his popularity above 50% - his core plus 10-15%.  

The popular vote in the last Presidential Election reflected that - with the electoral college giving him the victory with a minority of the vote.  Just how it is.  The risk to the Dems is that Trump is spouting what he is as a deliberate ploy to force the Dems into outrage and to support 'the Squad' - and that is just what they are doing.   Many who would otherwise *not* support Trump, and who actually hate what Trump is saying, actually dislike even more some of the things that 'the Squad' are saying - especially when spun by Trump.  And when these voters are in the swing states - Electoral College won but a minority of popular vote - job done.  PotUS 2nd term.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - Trump has never got his popularity above 50% - his core plus 10-15%. 

The popular vote in the last Presidential Election reflected that - with the electoral college giving him the victory with a minority of the vote.  Just how it is.  The risk to the Dems is that Trump is spouting what he is as a deliberate ploy to force the Dems into outrage and to support 'the Squad' - and that is just what they are doing.   Many who would otherwise *not* support Trump, and who actually hate what Trump is saying, actually dislike even more some of the things that 'the Squad' are saying - especially when spun by Trump.  And when these voters are in the swing states - Electoral College won but a minority of popular vote - job done.  PotUS 2nd term.
		
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Lots of words... However, it was obvious very early on in the process, to all but the party faithful, Hilary Clinton (as POTUS) was a scary proposition to the wider electorate...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Lots of words... However, it was obvious very early on in the process, to all but the party faithful, Hilary Clinton (as POTUS) was a scary proposition to the wider electorate...
		
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As Trump has said in respect of whatever he says, that Dems and others find controversial,  the voters out there agree with him.  That conclusion might be indigestible for many - but that's the shtick of a populist politician.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2019)

I have watched a few discussions on this issue and dislike this phrase being used now "Women(People) of colour" isn't that everyone?


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## Kellfire (Jul 17, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Lots of words... However, it was obvious very early on in the process, to all but the party faithful, Hilary Clinton (as POTUS) was a scary proposition to the wider electorate...
		
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Nope. The wider electorate voted for Clinton.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As Trump has said in respect of whatever he says, that Dems and others find controversial,  the voters out there agree with him.  That conclusion might be indigestible for many - *but that's the shtick of a populist politician.*

Click to expand...

God forbid that takes hold over here.  




Wait a minute.....


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## drdel (Jul 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As Trump has said in respect of whatever he says, that Dems and others find controversial,  the voters out there agree with him.  That conclusion might be indigestible for many - but that's the shtick of a populist politician.
		
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Being a 'popular' politician in a democratic system seems a good basic starting point ðŸ‘


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## Kellfire (Jul 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Being a 'popular' politician in a democratic system seems a good basic starting point ðŸ‘
		
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But he lost the popular vote...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			But he lost the popular vote...
		
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That can happen in the US system, it can happen in our system as well. It doesn't matter, he won enough, he convinced enough Americans in the right locations. He targetted areas he knew he could turn, he didn't bother with those he knew he could not. He played the game smarter than the Democrats. Do you think he cares that he didn't win more votes?


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## Kellfire (Jul 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That can happen in the US system, it can happen in our system as well. It doesn't matter, he won enough, he convinced enough Americans in the right locations. He targetted areas he knew he could turn, he didn't bother with those he knew he could not. He played the game smarter than the Democrats. Do you think he cares that he didn't win more votes?
		
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Only countering the idea that heâ€™s the popular choice.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 18, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Nope. The wider electorate voted for Clinton.
		
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I am sure she consoles herself with that thought every day...

The most winnable election of all time...
And, she didn't...

All down to arrogance...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2019)

And before long the ethnicity of anyone questioning Trump - his words and actions - becomes a matter than can openly be questioned - ooops - it already has...

Kelly Anne Conway...go girl...

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/16/politics/kellyanne-conway-trump-race-ethnicity/index.html


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## jp5 (Jul 18, 2019)

The US has fallen a long way in 10 years...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 18, 2019)

jp5 said:



			The US has fallen a long way in 10 years...







Click to expand...

It's just a general dumbification of politics where potential leaders just pander to and prey on the base fears and worries of their supporters, with the main intention being to get elected and cultivate your cult like following. You just know that if Trump had the same questions he would agree with them and further perpetuate the lies at one of his rallies.  And I fear some people in our political system are seeing the success and thinking, I'll have a bit of that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2019)

And so we have yesterday evening at a Trump rally - the new _"Lock her Up"_?  Unfortunately this is not unbelievable as it is exactly what Trump had intended - his core think as he says...no matter how unconscionable his and their behaviour seems to those who abhor racism.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/...back-as-donald-trump-attacks-ilhan-omar-video

Dems need to focus on Trump's relationship with Epstein and what Trump was up to with Epstein back then.


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## ger147 (Jul 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have yesterday evening at a Trump rally - the new _"Lock her Up"_?  Unfortunately this is not unbelievable as it is exactly what Trump had intended - his core think as he says...no matter how unconscionable his and their behaviour seems to those who abhor racism.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/...back-as-donald-trump-attacks-ilhan-omar-video

Dems need to focus on Trump's relationship with Epstein and what Trump was up to with Epstein back then.
		
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If the Democrats have any sense they will focus on selecting the correct candidate to run again the Donald in the 2020 Presidential Election.

Anything else would be mental IMO.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have yesterday evening at a Trump rally - the new _"Lock her Up"_?  Unfortunately this is not unbelievable as it is exactly what Trump had intended - his core think as he says...no matter how unconscionable his and their behaviour seems to those who abhor racism.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/...back-as-donald-trump-attacks-ilhan-omar-video

*Dems need to focus on Trump's relationship with Epstein and what Trump was up to with Epstein back then*.
		
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I think that unless a lot of his supporters are presented with incontrovertible evidence that he committed a pretty serious crime it will make no difference. And even then I imagine a fair few would still vote for him as the alternative of a 'communist' as president is too much for them. Similar here as I imagine the core voters of both parties will forgive their leaders for a lot as long to ensure Bojo/Corbyn do not get into power. Cult politics of fear, it's the way forwards.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 18, 2019)

ger147 said:



			If the Democrats have any sense they will focus on selecting the correct candidate to run again the Donald in the 2020 Presidential Election.

*Anything else would be mental IMO*.
		
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Politics is mostly mental nowadays.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think that unless a lot of his supporters are presented with incontrovertible evidence that he committed a pretty serious crime it will make no difference. And even then I imagine a fair few would still vote for him as the alternative of a 'communist' as president is too much for them. Similar here as I imagine the core voters of both parties will forgive their leaders for a lot as long to ensure Bojo/Corbyn do not get into power. Cult politics of fear, it's the way forwards.
		
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Epstein accused of crime that most would find abhorrent.  Maybe in Trump Voterland a crime such as running a sex trafficking ring is viewed as not that terrible - no matter who's involved

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/15/...ual-violence-survivors-tuerkheimer/index.html


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Epstein accused of crime that most would find abhorrent.  Maybe in Trump Voterland a crime such as running a sex trafficking ring is viewed as not that terrible - no matter who's involved

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/15/...ual-violence-survivors-tuerkheimer/index.html

Click to expand...

Add to that the guy signed a non-prosecution deal in 2008 for allegedly abusing underage girls. Thankfully he was later convicted of the offences and spent 13 months in a Florida jail.

Latest news is he's been denied bail because of a passport under another name found in his safe.


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## ger147 (Jul 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Epstein accused of crime that most would find abhorrent.  Maybe in Trump Voterland a crime such as running a sex trafficking ring is viewed as not that terrible - no matter who's involved

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/15/...ual-violence-survivors-tuerkheimer/index.html

Click to expand...

Trump's voters didn't vote for Epstein...


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## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...
Latest news is he's been denied bail because of a passport under another name found in his safe.
		
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Amongst other compelling 'evidence' (reasons), such as his own private jet and several homes, at least 1 of which was not in USA!

Btw/FWIW That passport had expired!


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## ger147 (Jul 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Amongst other compelling 'evidence' (reasons), such as his own private jet and several homes, at least 1 of which was not in USA!

Btw/FWIW That passport had expired!
		
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It also didn't help that his Defence team stated that he had never used the passport and then went sort of quiet when the Prosecution presented the evidence that it had been regularly used for all sorts of trips to and from several countries, including the UK... #oops


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## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It also didn't help that his Defence team stated that he had never used the passport and then went sort of quiet when the Prosecution presented the evidence that it had been regularly used for all sorts of trips to and from several countries, including the UK... #oops
		
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If that's correct, they are a bunch of idiots!


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## spongebob59 (Jul 18, 2019)

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-t...racist-send-her-back-chants-at-rally-11765940


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151935028961718277


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Trump's voters didn't vote for Epstein...
		
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That is correct - they voted for Trump - a close friend of Epstein.


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## ger147 (Jul 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is correct - they voted for Trump...
		
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Thank you for confirming that the crimes of Epstein were completely irrelevant to the US electorate in 2016.


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## Kellfire (Jul 18, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Thank you for confirming that the crimes of Epstein were completely irrelevant to the US electorate in 2016.
		
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The character of a nominee is very important. Donâ€™t pretend otherwise.


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## ger147 (Jul 18, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The character of a nominee is very important. Donâ€™t pretend otherwise.
		
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I'm not pretending otherwise, and while I have neither any affinity or sympathy for the Donald it's outrageous to link anyone (even Trump IMO) to someone else's serious crimes without even a hint of evidence.  I'm sure Peter Sutcliffe had mates back in the day, doesn't make any of those guys serial rapists/murderers...


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## larmen (Jul 18, 2019)

I think the Epstein scandal is likely bipartisan as Bill Clinton might also be involved. It is more a â€˜rich guyâ€™ thing than republican.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 19, 2019)

larmen said:



			I think the Epstein scandal is likely bipartisan as Bill Clinton might also be involved. It is more a â€˜rich guyâ€™ thing than republican.
		
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100% correct, bet they are all part of the Bilderberg group! 

(David Icke predictions coming true!ðŸ˜œ)


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## Hobbit (Jul 19, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Thank you for confirming that the crimes of Epstein were completely irrelevant to the US electorate in 2016.
		
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I kind of agree with you but, equally, would ask the question about Trump's own behaviour and judgement. Countless people have had friends, acquaintances and work colleagues who have seriously broken the law but are totally innocent themselves of nothing more than knowing that person.

Epstein's behaviour and past crimes are well documented, but so to is Trump's behaviour, including a voice recording, around women. And with that in mind, just what are Trump's morals? Are they as bad as Epstein's? There's no past criminal record, nor a pending charge. Guilty by association? I prefer to deal in facts but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be surprised if Trump was found to have crossed the line.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I kind of agree with you but, equally, would ask the question about Trump's own behaviour and judgement. Countless people have had friends, acquaintances and work colleagues who have seriously broken the law but are totally innocent themselves of nothing more than knowing that person.

Epstein's behaviour and past crimes are well documented, but so to is Trump's behaviour, including a voice recording, around women. And with that in mind, just what are Trump's morals? Are they as bad as Epstein's? There's no past criminal record, nor a pending charge. Guilty by association? I prefer to deal in facts but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be surprised if Trump was found to have crossed the line.
		
Click to expand...

There are some excruciating TV chat show interviews of Trump from the 1980s, that make plain his views on his relationships and interactions with the opposite sex.  Yes - his views were received by the TV audiences present in the context of a very 1980s mindset - and so not unacceptable or inappropriate to be expressed as he did - but his thinking and actions were his.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2019)

Looking forward to hearing what Trump says in the statement he is to make later today about the terrible shootings over the weekend. 

Especially interested to hear how he will (as he will) manage to distance the El Paso attack (which is evidencially an attack on Immigrants/Hispanics) from his pre-election '_What the hell is going on'_ and his recent _'send them back'_ rhetoric.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/us/patrick-crusius-el-paso-shooter-manifesto.html


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## Hobbit (Aug 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looking forward to hearing what Trump says in the statement he is to make later today about the terrible shootings over the weekend.

Especially interested to hear how he will (as he will) manage to distance the El Paso attack (which is evidencially an attack on Immigrants/Hispanics) from his pre-election '_What the hell is going on'_ and his recent _'send them back'_ rhetoric.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/us/patrick-crusius-el-paso-shooter-manifesto.html

Click to expand...

Whilst I agree with you in that he is not a nice person at all, I'm not interested in what he has to say. He will spin, twist and down right lie about it, no doubt blaming others. Its repetitive and doesn't alter one jot my opinions of him and the situation in the US re gun laws.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whilst I agree with you in that he is not a nice person at all, I'm not interested in what he has to say. He will spin, twist and down right lie about it, no doubt blaming others. Its repetitive and doesn't alter one jot my opinions of him and the situation in the US re gun laws.
		
Click to expand...

I agree but do think it matters what he says (or doesn't say) and our governments response.

Plenty of folks in the UK just love him and what he is to for/to the USA; his rhetoric and actions fit easily with the thinking of too many in this country.  He should be called out on what he says and does; much of what he says in respect of immigrants (the issue is valid) is unacceptable and should never be allowed to become acceptable here.  Our government should not be afraid to call 'foul' when his words or actions (or lack of them) go over the line into what we in this country have traditionally viewed as unacceptable - if his views take hold here we risk corrupting that which is core to what is held dear about 'Britishness'.

We should be wary of getting too close to him - _'He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon' _seems so very apt for Johnson looking to make deals with Trump.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2019)

...the right words about condemning racism, bigotry and white supremacism...will he retrospectively condemn himself or apologise if he accepts that by his words and actions in the past he has encouraged those he condemns today.  Maybe...


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## spongebob59 (Aug 5, 2019)

President Donald Trump has said the gunman in the El Paso mass shooting was consumed "by racist hate" and the US must "condemn racism, bigotry and white supremacy", 

He ticks all 3 of these


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 5, 2019)

He even got the City one of the shootings happened in wrong ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ 

He really is a beacon of how insular and racist a good number of septics are.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He even got the City one of the shootings happened in wrong ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

He really is a beacon of how insular and racist a good number of septics are.
		
Click to expand...

Seems from what I heard that he was reading very carefully what had been written for him...but he was rather slow and hesitant in his delivery - and oh so deep and meaningful.  I hesitate to suggest that some of the words and emotion coming out of his mouth were rather inconsistent with words and emotions of the last few weeks especially.


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## Hobbit (Aug 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree but do think it matters what he says (or doesn't say) and our governments response.

Plenty of folks in the UK just love him and what he is to for/to the USA; his rhetoric and actions fit easily with the thinking of too many in this country.  He should be called out on what he says and does; much of what he says in respect of immigrants (the issue is valid) is unacceptable and should never be allowed to become acceptable here.  Our government should not be afraid to call 'foul' when his words or actions (or lack of them) go over the line into what we in this country have traditionally viewed as unacceptable - if his views take hold here we risk corrupting that which is core to what is held dear about 'Britishness'.

We should be wary of getting too close to him - _'He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon' _seems so very apt for Johnson looking to make deals with Trump.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have any basis to make those assumptions about Trump's approval ratings both in the US and in the UK? You sound obsessed by Trump and seem to want to be the moral compass for his position as POTUS. In that respect, like me and just about everyone else, you're not even an insignificant speck of sand in the great scheme of global politics.

Its not hard to find the various polls giving the approval ratings both in the US and in the UK. 

1) His approval rating in the US, for all his noise about the best president ever, is well below the typical presidential rating of 53%, and significantly below that of Obama.
2) His approval rating in the UK is also very poor - how often have you seen a POTUS receive the negative demonstrations like those in London for his 2 visits.
3) I'm sure if you could be bothered to search for news of the response by the UK govt to some of his pronouncements you will find he has been called out.

Calm down or you'll bust a blood vessel. The world is well capable of recognising idiots, and the ratings for Trump clearly suggest the silent majority are well aware of what he is.


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## gmc40 (Aug 5, 2019)

What a difference. Heâ€™s 10 times the man of the current president.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do you have any basis to make those assumptions about Trump's approval ratings both in the US and in the UK? You sound obsessed by Trump and seem to want to be the moral compass for his position as POTUS. In that respect, like me and just about everyone else, you're not even an insignificant speck of sand in the great scheme of global politics.

Its not hard to find the various polls giving the approval ratings both in the US and in the UK.

1) His approval rating in the US, for all his noise about the best president ever, is well below the typical presidential rating of 53%, and significantly below that of Obama.
2) His approval rating in the UK is also very poor - how often have you seen a POTUS receive the negative demonstrations like those in London for his 2 visits.
3) I'm sure if you could be bothered to search for news of the response by the UK govt to some of his pronouncements you will find he has been called out.

Calm down or you'll bust a blood vessel. The world is well capable of recognising idiots, and the ratings for Trump clearly suggest the silent majority are well aware of what he is.
		
Click to expand...

You are right.  The evidence I have is nothing more than the evidence of my ears.  And I have heard a lot of contributors to LBC over the last three years expressing admiration for Trump - especially in his approach to negotiation, immigration and 'country first'.  I am not suggesting for one moment that there is a majority supporting Trump in the UK - that is why I simply said that there are *many *who support Trump.  Unfortunately some of these many are very influential in UK politics. 

I simply hold up Farage as the #1 case in point.

Fortunately I have hope that BJ Ltd. do not feel the admiration for, and draw of, Trump that is articulated by such as he.   And so with that hope I remain calm


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## Fade and Die (Aug 6, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			What a difference. Heâ€™s 10 times the man of the current president.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry but I donâ€™t think the biggest Presidential dud in living memory should be commenting at all, during his two terms he did nothing to address the guns issue, and even less success in tackling racism in America. The guy will go down as a massive disappointment with no lasting legacy. What a wasted opportunity he was.


Edit. Not a Trump fan btw.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 6, 2019)

Is LBC a popular station? Just London isn't it? Is it purely a talk station?
(Appreciate this is a slight side track but Hogie quotes it quite often. Doesn't hit my radar apart from his posts)


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## MegaSteve (Aug 6, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is LBC a popular station? Just London isn't it? Is it purely a talk station?
(Appreciate this is a slight side track but Hogie quotes it quite often. Doesn't hit my radar apart from his posts)
		
Click to expand...

Been growing in popularity post the vote... Using self opinionated presenters (shock jocks) seems to be doing the trick for them...

Not for me... If only KB could be on all day...


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Sorry but I donâ€™t think the biggest Presidential dud in living memory should be commenting at all, during his two terms he did nothing to address the guns issue, and even less success in tackling racism in America. The guy will go down as a massive disappointment with no lasting legacy. What a wasted opportunity he was.


Edit. Not a Trump fan btw.
		
Click to expand...

Obama's biggest legacy saw universal healthcare in the US. A tremendous step forward for America. And what did Trump do with it? UH was very decisive in the US, and was often compared with benefit scroungers by one party and heralded from the roof tops by many. I have quite a few golf buddies over there, and to hear them argue for and against both Trump, gun laws and UH is very revealing.


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right.  The evidence I have is nothing more than the evidence of my ears.  And I have heard a lot of contributors to LBC over the last three years expressing admiration for Trump - especially in his approach to negotiation, immigration and 'country first'.  I am not suggesting for one moment that there is a majority supporting Trump in the UK - that is why I simply said that there are *many *who support Trump.  Unfortunately some of these many are very influential in UK politics.

I simply hold up Farage as the #1 case in point.

Fortunately I have hope that BJ Ltd. do not feel the admiration for, and draw of, Trump that is articulated by such as he.   And so with that hope I remain calm 

Click to expand...

Farage? Remind me how many times he's tried to become an MP. I repeat, the silent majority aren't as daft as you think.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is LBC a popular station? Just London isn't it? Is it purely a talk station?
(Appreciate this is a slight side track but Hogie quotes it quite often. Doesn't hit my radar apart from his posts)
		
Click to expand...

It's no longer London - they 'cunningly' changed the meaning of LBC to Leading Britain's Conversation - so cover UK-wide and Global questions.

A real mix of presenters - any station that has weekdays Nick Ferrari, James O'Brien, Shelagh Fogerty, Eddie Mair, Iain Dale and Clive Bull will give a good airing, and interrogation, of views from across the political and social spectrum - and IMO none fit the mold of the traditional view of a 'shock jock'.

Just a pity they give too much airtime to Rees-Mogg and Farage - and try listening to Farage's callers 6-7pm weekdays except for days he's in Brussels slagging off the EU or in the USA sucking up to Trump...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Farage? Remind me how many times he's tried to become an MP. I repeat, the silent majority aren't as daft as you think.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think the silent majority are daft at all.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Obama's biggest legacy saw universal healthcare in the US. A tremendous step forward for America. And what did Trump do with it? UH was very decisive in the US, and was often compared with benefit scroungers by one party and heralded from the roof tops by many. I have quite a few golf buddies over there, and to hear them argue for and against both Trump, gun laws and UH is very revealing.
		
Click to expand...

Not really a legacy though was it? He went for the Affordable Care Act rather than Medicare for All which was easily (and predictably) overturned by the next Republican President. Also he borrowed almost as much as all the other presidents since Washington combined! ... maybe thatâ€™s his real legacy?


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## Dan2501 (Aug 10, 2019)

What a surprise. Epstein "commits suicide" in prison. One way to keep him very quiet I guess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

Trump and his cronies (Bolton et al) spouting all sorts of stuff about UK being first in lone for a trade deal.  Well as our friends from Seattle (and of 25+yrs residency in the USA) told us night before last - putting through trade deals are nothing to do with Trump and Bolton - it's up to Congress.  And so Nancy Pelosi tells us yesterday that the Congress (as it is comprised today) will never vote through any trade deal if UK leaves the EU in a manner than undermines the Good Friday Agreement.

And our friends tell us that the Dems in the Senate would filibuster it even if it did get through Congress.

Aside - our friends are seriously concerned abut how close the USA is to almost 'civil war' at the moment in the context pf the Trump Presidency.   One of the couple works in Public Service Radio as a Regional Managing Editor - and she tells us that the stuff that she is seeing and hearing from her folks on the ground and through social media is really not good at all - actually very scary.


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## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump and his cronies (Bolton et al) spouting all sorts of stuff about UK being first in lone for a trade deal.  Well as our friends from Seattle (and of 25+yrs residency in the USA) told us night before last - putting through trade deals are nothing to do with Trump and Bolton - it's up to Congress.  And so Nancy Pelosi tells us yesterday that the Congress (as it is comprised today) will never vote through any trade deal if UK leaves the EU in a manner than undermines the Good Friday Agreement.

And our friends tell us that the Dems in the Senate would filibuster it even if it did get through Congress.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they just forgot...


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 15, 2019)

Before people jump into full crisis mode, perhaps only 1 person is, if the US want to go with WTO with the UK then their exports will be as tricky to sell as ours over there. Once again, this is a mutually beneficial or mutually destructive situation.

US farmers are currently struggling on the export front following the trade war with China. They will be keen for the govt to do a deal with the UK that would help them to sell over here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Maybe they just forgot...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed maybe they did...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 16, 2019)

Trump tries to buy Greenland.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Trump tries to buy Greenland.

Click to expand...

Well, they bought Alaska and Louisiana, seems something they like doing.ðŸ˜€


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## Tashyboy (Aug 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Trump tries to buy Greenland.

Click to expand...

Am sure he owns part of Scotland. ðŸ¤”


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## drdel (Aug 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Trump tries to buy Greenland.

Click to expand...

It was a off the cuff response to the issue of the military base the USA has there and the general problem across the island and to help the Danish who are finding the cost burdensome!


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## larmen (Aug 21, 2019)

Trump now cancels the State Visit to Denmark because they donâ€™t want to sell him Greenland.

Maybe he should write a strongly worded letter to them.


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## jp5 (Aug 21, 2019)

I look forward to our increased relationship with this very sensible person.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I look forward to our increased relationship with this very sensible person.
		
Click to expand...

And his willingness to compromise with us on a trade deal when he doesn't get what he wants.  But as has been said wistfully by many in respect of our government's negotiations over withdrawal - when Trump doesn't get what he wants he walks away.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2019)

Trump on the Bible - his favourite book.  Any favourite verses?  Old Testament or New?  It's too personal to say.






In other words he hasnae a scoobies...

Not difficult to find favourite verses - one of mine - John 13:34-35

One of the hardest to adhere to these days...and even a Bible-loving Trump might be finding it difficult.

And as a Christian I tend to go more with the New...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

I like Rachel Maddow's take on things, and sometimes I just love her   This from her on Trump @ the G7.






Includes his

_'I have second thoughts about everything'_

Well that's comforting...or not.  Perhaps best to not put too much store in what he says about trade deals...but we will.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

BREAKING: House Oversight is investigating whether US military expenditures have been propping up Trump Turnberry. A peculiar refueling stop in Glasgow by a US Air Force crew, who stayed overnight at the resortâ€”there & backâ€”tipped them off. Our exclusive: https://politico.com/story/2019/09/06/air-force-trump-scottish-retreat-1484337


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

Trump sacks Bolton his Nat Sec Adviser - eh?? Very sudden...and a bit of a political earthquake across the pond.

What the heck is going on...?  But thank goodness for that.

And Bolton is telling the world that he was not sacked and that Trump is lying.  

Bolton says he resigned because of the mess caused by Trump over the Taliban and Afghan summit - and it even being planned by Trump.  Bolton being dead against Trump trying to meet with the Taliban in the week of 9/11


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

Seems like Bolton and Trump disagreed too much.  And Trump didn't like the fact that Bolton was getting a lot of the attention around foreign policy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Meanwhile back across the Pond and Johnsonâ€™s buddy showing the way for his uk counterpart.  But there was me thinking that even a Brexiac PM couldnâ€™t possible tread in the footsteps of the TrumpOne.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49842895

All we need now is for the UK PM and his cronies to try and cover up something pretty damning like - oh I donâ€™t know - something like the real reason behind the prorogation decision.  Ah - Hold on a sec...

Next Johnson will - by his words and actions - like trump - drive his opponents so far away that support for anything he proposes will be rejected - and in that way heâ€™ll be able to claim that it was the others - the enemies of the state - who are thwarting him.

Jeez - BeeJay just about caught up with Trump.  Will need to watch what Trump does next and get clue about what BeeJay will do next.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176819645699043328

There has been no President in the history of our Country who has been treated so badly as I have. The Democrats are frozen with hatred and fear. They get nothing done. This should never be allowed to happen to another President. Witch Hunt!

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176819645699043328

There has been no President in the history of our Country who has been treated so badly as I have. The Democrats are frozen with hatred and fear. They get nothing done. This should never be allowed to happen to another President. Witch Hunt!

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

He is right though LP. He has been treated badly. 


But only because he deserves every bit of it.


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## larmen (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176819645699043328

There has been no President in the history of our Country who has treated so badly

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

JFK comes to mind. As well as  6 (or 5) others who received the ultimate bad treatment.

And the Republicans were entirely partisan towards Obama, even voted against their own policies when they aligned with Obama.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-49837511

How poor is this 

First to complain about it and then for the BBC to uphold it


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## Hobbit (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-49837511

How poor is this

First to complain about it and then for the BBC to uphold it
		
Click to expand...

I remember her on BBC breakfast making the comment. She was almost incandescent with anger. Good on her, and very well said. She nailed it when she said Trump does it for effect. Thought it might get her in hot water but I'd vote for every day and twice on Sunday.


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## Hobbit (Sep 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I remember her on BBC breakfast making the comment. She was almost incandescent with anger. Good on her, and very well said. She nailed it when she said Trump does it for effect. Thought it might get her in hot water but I'd vote for every day and twice on Sunday.

Click to expand...

Nice to see so many celebs and politicians coming out in support of Naga. 

One of the main things she was criticised for is being in breach of expressing an opinion. Might be splitting hairs but she has first hand experience of words similar to those expressed by Trump. She didn't express an opinion, she stated a fact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2019)

And so we have discovered that Trump conversations with many others in addition to that with the Ukrainian president, have been classified and hidden away and hidden on a â€˜secretâ€™ server - and classified so only because the nature of the conversations - with Putin and others - would expose Trump to accusations of working against the best interests of the United States.  

And so mood amongst some republican senators is darkening - and it is those republican senators who will determine the fate of the president.  These senators are starting to realise that Trump may drag the Republican Party to a bad place and on balance...


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## ger147 (Sep 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have discovered that Trump conversations with many others in addition to that with the Ukrainian president, have been classified and hidden away and hidden on a â€˜secretâ€™ server - and classified so only because the nature of the conversations - with Putin and others - would expose Trump to accusations of working against the best interests of the United States. 

And so mood amongst some republican senators is darkening - and it is those republican senators who will determine the fate of the president.  These senators are starting to realise that Trump may drag the Republican Party to a bad place and on balance...
		
Click to expand...

Keep dreaming...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Keep dreaming...
		
Click to expand...

Not my dreams - the words of some close to Republican senators.

Most probably not going to happen - but the Rep Senators are only watching out for the balance in supporting Trump to switch from it being good for their re-election to it being detrimental.  Still good - but they know that Trump is actually just a switched-Democrat in it all for himself.  And at some point too much negative around 'himself' might well tip the balance.


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## ger147 (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not my dreams - the words of some close to Republican senators.

Most probably not going to happen - but the Rep Senators are only watching out for the balance in supporting Trump to switch from it being good for their re-election to it being detrimental.  Still good - but they know that Trump is actually just a switched-Democrat in it all for himself.  And at some point too much negative around 'himself' might well tip the balance.
		
Click to expand...

I refer you to my previous reply...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I refer you to my previous reply...
		
Click to expand...

I'm not dreaming - I'm just saying what Republican watchers are saying as Trump crashes about like a bull in a china shop.  Might have been a dream for democrats over the last two years as the nightmare for them of a Trump presidency unfolded - but not so much a dream these days as impeachment proceedings have commenced and Trumps denials get wilder - and Giuliani's random utterances get even more random.  Even Fox News is having problems as their presenters war behind the scenes and in front of the camera on this...

See for example Tucker Carlson on Shep Smith or Chris Wallace.

And have fun watching Fox and Friends hosts squirm, wriggle and play Taboo as they try to avoid using the 'server' word in the context of Trumps conversation transcripts.


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## ger147 (Sep 30, 2019)

I refer you to my previous reply...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2019)

Trumpâ€™s press conference with the Finnish President - childish insanity from Trump.  Quite astonishing.  The guy truly does seem a bit unhinged.  Not surprising perhaps that McConnell has accepted that if Congress finds for impeachment then the Senate will try Trump - McConnell could have got out of that but he didnâ€™t.

Plus it seems that many republicans are looking at such as Nikki Haley knowing that she would beat any Democrat in the next election - but it is Trump they have...Fun times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2019)

And so we have a second whistleblower (and maybe more) who claims to have 1st-hand knowledge of the PotUS telephone conversation - the first whistleblower did not have 1st-hand knowledge - one of the main lines of attack on that whistleblower.

And so the committees want sight of everything held about the conversation - including the full transcript (though that might not exist).  But then also there are the text exchanges between Taylor and Sondland on the matter.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/4/20898215/trump-text-messages-ukraine-impeachment 

Oh what fun for the PotUS.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 7, 2019)

could be interesting :

Breaking News: President Trump must turn over eight years of his personal and corporate tax returns to Manhattan prosecutors, a federal judge ruled

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/nyregion/trump-taxes-lawsuit-vance.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2019)

oooh - he is sooo not going to like that.  Just watch him refuse and dare Congress to put him in front of a judge.  Fortunately that sort of thing would never happen here in the UK.


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## robinthehood (Oct 7, 2019)

Ultimately it's all for show as he won't get impeached and kicked out. But could be fun to watch.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 7, 2019)

Weird 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181232249821388801


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Weird


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181232249821388801

Click to expand...

I think it is slightly worrying when I can't initially tell if this is a real or parody account. And even more frightening if we are talking about the president of the US.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 7, 2019)

When did he last destroy the economy of Turkey?

Have SNL hijacked his Twitter account, great and unmatched wisdom? Has he become the Wizard of Oz? Even for him that's a bizarre one.


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## Hobbit (Oct 7, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When did he last destroy the economy of Turkey?

Have SNL hijacked his Twitter account, great and unmatched wisdom? Has he become the Wizard of Oz? Even for him that's a bizarre one.
		
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Its also appearing on a number of media websites.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think it is slightly worrying when I can't initially tell if this is a real or parody account. And even more frightening if we are talking about the president of the US.
		
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In my great and unmatched wisdom - it is a bit frightening when you know his account and his words...


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## spongebob59 (Oct 7, 2019)

ITV news confirm this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

Some of his main GoP supporters in Congress (e.g. Lindsey Graham) not at all happy at the withdrawal from Syria - the risk of ISIS reforming - and what that says about the trustworthiness of the USA as a partner. 

But apparently his action is supported by the UK - or so, in his great and unmatched wisdom, he has said.  Have we supported it.  Where is DRaab when you need him?


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## Hobbit (Oct 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some of his main GoP supporters in Congress (e.g. Lindsey Graham) not at all happy at the withdrawal from Syria - the risk of ISIS reforming - and what that says about the trustworthiness of the USA as a partner.

But apparently his action is supported by the UK - or so, in his great and unmatched wisdom, he has said.  Have we supported it.  Where is DRaab when you need him?
		
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Maybe Trump wants ISIS to reform so that his friends in the defence industry (defence-lol) will get more contracts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe Trump wants ISIS to reform so that his friends in the defence industry (defence-lol) will get more contracts.
		
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Whatever happens I suspect that Trump will be blaming the EU and the UK etc for not stepping up to the mark.  Has DRaab told us yet whether the UK is supportive of this withdrawal - as Trump said last night.  Or are we afraid to push back and contradict him - telling him that the UK does not support the withdrawal.  

Let's be hearing you DRaab!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2019)

Trump blocking his Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland testifying to the Congress impeachment committees - even though it appears that Sondland is keen to appear. Well he is a businessman hoping to have a business life after Trump.   And so Sondland is subpoena'd to appear.  The optics of this blocking by Trump are not good.


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## Hobbit (Oct 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever happens I suspect that Trump will be blaming the EU and the UK etc for not stepping up to the mark.  Has DRaab told us yet whether the UK is supportive of this withdrawal - as Trump said last night.  Or are we afraid to push back and contradict him - telling him that the UK does not support the withdrawal. 

Let's be hearing you DRaab!
		
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He blamed the EU 2 days ago, saying that they weren't stepping up the mark and doing their fair share. The last few hours has seen the Turks attacking Kurdish positions in northern Syria.

As for the Sondland issue; if Trump gets away with this the US govt is NOT the beacon for freedom and democracy its supposed to be. He has got to be impeached for this, assuming the Democrats are honourable - oh well, never mind.


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## Foxholer (Oct 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He blamed the EU 2 days ago, saying that they weren't stepping up the mark and doing their fair share. The last few hours has seen the Turks attacking Kurdish positions in northern Syria.

As for the Sondland issue; if Trump gets away with this the US govt is NOT the beacon for freedom and democracy its supposed to be. He has got to be impeached for this, *assuming the Democrats are honourable* - oh well, never mind.
		
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Democrats? They are the ones that instigated impeachment proceedings! Do you mean Republicans?

Btw. I'd hardly call any of them 'honourable'! For me, it's simply a case of 'less dishonourable' in a 'corrupt' environment!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 9, 2019)

Just on the ITV News at Ten, Trump on being questioned about the Kurds and why they havenâ€™t been given total protection:
â€œThey didnâ€™t help us in the Second World War, They didnâ€™t help us at Normandyâ€
He is a fruit loop, I genuinely believe he has mental health problems and needs help.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2019)

And to calm any fears his supporters in the US might have over escaped ISIS fighters?...

_â€œtheyâ€™re going to be escaping to Europe," _

Thanks a lot buddy - who needs enemies...

Meanwhile Trump appears to have rejected requests from Johnson and DRaab to have diplomatic immunity waived for the women who was in an accident in which English lad was killed...'..._the woman was driving on wrong side of road - that happens'  _being the gist of it.

And this is the guy who is going to be our BFF after we leave the EU.  Oh yes.


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## Old Skier (Oct 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Just on the ITV News at Ten, Trump on being questioned about the Kurds and why they havenâ€™t been given total protection:
â€œThey didnâ€™t help us in the Second World War, They didnâ€™
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And to calm any fears his supporters in the US might have over escaped ISIS fighters?...

_â€œtheyâ€™re going to be escaping to Europe," _

Thanks a lot buddy - who needs enemies...

Meanwhile Trump appears to have rejected requests from Johnson and DRaab to have diplomatic immunity waived for the women who was in an accident in which English lad was killed...'..._the woman was driving on wrong side of road - that happens'  _being the gist of it.

And this is the guy who is going to be our BFF after we leave the EU.  Oh yes.
		
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So tell me: Why have the British forces withdrawn its support of the Kurds.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So tell me: Why have the British forces withdrawn its support of the Kurds.
		
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As far as I can gather, the Government has disagreed with Trumpâ€™s actions and told him so, they have also condemned Turkey.
Our troops have been withdrawn for their own safety.
Numbers wise, we have nowhere near the amount the US had on the ground and the US were providing the majority of logistical support, with the US withdrawing theyâ€™ve given us and the French no choice.


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## Old Skier (Oct 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			As far as I can gather, the Government has disagreed with Trumpâ€™s actions and told him so, they have also condemned Turkey.
Our troops have been withdrawn for their own safety.
Numbers wise, we have nowhere near the amount the US had on the ground and the US were providing the majority of logistical support, with the US withdrawing theyâ€™ve given us and the French no choice.
		
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And theres the crux, we no longer have a force capable of operating alone, even with the French it appears. So we have to rely on the yanks with an unstable president to act as the worlds policeman because we and the rest of NATO appear to be impotent without the US support.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And theres the crux, we no longer have a force capable of operating alone, even with the French it appears. So we have to rely on the yanks with an unstable president to act as the worlds policeman because we and the rest of NATO appear to be impotent without the US support.
		
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I mean we could join the EU army if that would help?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And theres the crux, we no longer have a force capable of operating alone, even with the French it appears. So we have to rely on the yanks with an unstable president to act as the worlds policeman because we and the rest of NATO appear to be impotent without the US support.
		
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Surely it depends on scale, Foreign Troops in Syria is neither a NATO or UN mission, it was/is a US Led Coalition against Isis, weâ€™ve put very few on the ground and our biggest role has been from the Air side.

I agree we no longer have a force capable of operating alone, but it is a red herring to use it as the reason why our troops have withdrawn from the Border area.


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## Old Skier (Oct 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I mean we could join the EU army if that would help?
		
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Well we have many in the EU not able to meet their commitments in NATO so we have an EU Army where it's commitment will be larger because they split from the largest NATO force. Sounds like a poor economic model let alone defensive/offensive one.


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## Old Skier (Oct 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely it depends on scale, Foreign Troops in Syria is neither a NATO or UN mission, it was/is a US Led Coalition against Isis, weâ€™ve put very few on the ground and our biggest role has been from the Air side.

I agree we no longer have a force capable of operating alone, but it is a red herring to use it as the reason why our troops have withdrawn from the Border area.
		
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If it's a red herring I'd be interested to know your take on why our forces have been withdraw and why it's not been reported on any of our news channels.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If it's a red herring I'd be interested to know your take on why our forces have been withdraw and why it's not been reported on any of our news channels.
		
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Probably because publicly the Government refuses to say how many troops we have on the ground, they are unlikely to publicly say anything else.


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## Old Skier (Oct 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Just on the ITV News at Ten, Trump on being questioned about the Kurds and why they havenâ€™t been given total protection:
â€œThey didnâ€™t help us in the Second World War, They didnâ€™t help us at Normandyâ€
He is a fruit loop, I genuinely believe he has mental health problems and needs help.
		
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They didn't help in Vietnam either - but neither did Trump


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump blocking his Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland testifying to the Congress impeachment committees - even though it appears that Sondland is keen to appear. Well he is a businessman hoping to have a business life after Trump.   And so Sondland is subpoena'd to appear.  The optics of this blocking by Trump are not good.
		
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Reported is that now that Sondland has been subpoenad to appear he is going to do just that - defying the State Department.  Though he was formally US ambassador to the EU he was also Trumps representative in the Ukraine once Trump had â€˜sackedâ€™ the incumbent US Ambassador to the Ukraine.  And she too is going to testify.

And Trump gets angrier and more random in his language and tweets - if that is at all possible.

And meanwhile the polls - even FoxNews polls...oh are they annoying Trump...


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## spongebob59 (Oct 17, 2019)

Omg, written by a child ?

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-17...a-fool-mike-pompeo-mike-pence-head-to-ankara/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Omg, written by a child ?

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-17...a-fool-mike-pompeo-mike-pence-head-to-ankara/

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If you read it in Private Eye you'd laugh at the absurdity of it.  But no.  The Leader of the Free World wrote this...

Just don't be a fool...takes a dangerous one to know a dangerous one some might say.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

Trump on Pelosi following 'meltdown' meeting.  Such a class act. 

And as others have noted - the 'heads-down' demenour of the General and the three Republicans to his right don't suggest that they are that proud of what their Great Leader has been saying to Pelosi and her Dem colleagues...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184620202480193537


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2019)

This one is funny 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189153270167564288


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2019)

Meanwhile attacks continue on a Purple Heart Lt Col. and Iraq war veteran who listened in to the 'Ukraine' phone call (it was his job to do that) and then reported his concerns that what was being suggested re Biden could undermine bipartisan support in Congress for aid to Ukraine.  

Now Fox News and GOP 'Trumpists' are suggesting that as the Lt Col was born in Ukraine (his parents moved to US when he was 3yrs old) he might not be 'putting America First' - and in fact that he might well be guilty of *espionage*.  And so it is just fine to attack this Lt Col. 

Of course they ignore the fact that it is US policy to support Ukraine in opposing Russian aggression, and so anything that might undermine US support to Ukraine and make Ukraine weaker in face of Russian aggression is clearly against the interests of the USA - desperate - Jeez.


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile attacks continue on a Purple Heart Lt Col. and Iraq war veteran who listened in to the 'Ukraine' phone call (it was his job to do that) and then reported his concerns that what was being suggested re Biden could undermine bipartisan support in Congress for aid to Ukraine. 

Now Fox News and GOP 'Trumpists' are suggesting that as the Lt Col was born in Ukraine (his parents moved to US when he was 3yrs old) he might not be 'putting America First' - and in fact that he might well be guilty of *espionage*.  And so it is just fine to attack this Lt Col.

*Of course they ignore the fact that it is US policy to support Ukraine in opposing Russian aggression, and so anything that might undermine US support to Ukraine and make Ukraine weaker in face of Russian aggression is clearly against the interests of the USA *- desperate - Jeez.
		
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how does it matter in the post-truth narrative.  Trump is running a 'Get me out of here - White House Special' and is purely doing it for ratings.  Like our BoJo, he gives a monkeys about what happens to his country


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm over in the US now and have been watching the news channels and to be honest it is utterly toxic. Everything is polarised and spun to the extreme and you just wonder where the sane people are to drive the agenda. Some of the commentators they get on are beyond parody as they are so biased. 

I know people moan about the BBC and other UK channels. But for the love of God please do not let them get into this state, as they are effectively 24hr constant party political broadcasts. Which becomes very scary if that is how someone gets all their news.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm over in the US now and have been watching the news channels and to be honest it is utterly toxic. Everything is polarised and spun to the extreme and you just wonder where the sane people are to drive the agenda. Some of the commentators they get on are beyond parody as they are so biased.

I know people moan about the BBC and other UK channels. But for the love of God please do not let them get into this state, as they are effectively 24hr constant party political broadcasts. Which becomes very scary if that is how someone gets all their news.
		
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And now that Fox News have got rid of Sheppard Smith (well he was sick of the place) the only 'news' person on Fox News is Chris Wallace - and he's only weekend. How long he'll last is debatable.  Judge Napolitano as a commentator occasionally calls out Trump and Trumpists for their misinformation and lies - and as a result Trump isn't happy with Wallace and Napolitano.  The rest on Fox News are commentators - and some are awful to behold - Fox and Friends would be funny if it wasn't Trump's favourite morning watch - and when you listen to Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham and Judge Jeanine Pirro - oh dear goodness.

Of course anti-Trumpists have MSNBC - and such as Joe and Mika are always good for their shock and despair at the most recent Trump-GOP outburst/lie/wheedle.

Personally I like _The Young Turks_ - Cenk and Ana rock  - and on CNN, Anderson Cooper is always dryly cutting in his analysis.


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm over in the US now and have been watching the news channels and to be honest it is utterly toxic. Everything is polarised and spun to the extreme and you just wonder where the sane people are to drive the agenda. Some of the commentators they get on are beyond parody as they are so biased.

I know people moan about the BBC and other UK channels. But for the love of God please do not let them get into this state, as they are effectively 24hr constant party political broadcasts. Which becomes very scary if that is how someone gets all their news.
		
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I know this is dangerous territory and you might have the FBI on your trail soon...  Have you tried Al-Jazeera English..  i find it fairly good and balanced.  CNN had its place but sometimes you think they are overdoing the anti-trump bit.  Everyone knows he is a charlatan show man, but you get bored when everything is calling out the truth


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2019)

Are the no levels this man wonâ€™t stoop too?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189604324843950080


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

Joking apart - what the hell is going on? Is Trump bonkers or is he just a dangerous autocrat given a largely supine GOP.

Tweeting derogatory and threatening messages about a witness in an impeachment investigation whilst the witness is actually being questioned - with the clear implications for further potential witnessses.  Has he truly not heard of witness tampering - or does he just not care - he feels he can blatantly break the law in full sight of all in the belief that by him just saying â€˜fake newsâ€™ or â€˜witch huntâ€™ itâ€™ll be ignored by his core support.

Just as well no politicians in this country have any connections with Trump or are looking to take lessons from him.  This country would be in a fine mess given we have no written constitution to measure behaviour against.  Just the rule of law.


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## User20204 (Nov 15, 2019)

I've been following things fairly closely via YT clips for weeks. On the face of it, it's all incredible what's been going on but what I find absolutely staggering is the GOP senators continual denying of what is fact and embarrassing themselves defending him.

Whether what he's done is impeachable I'm not sure though I don't believe he will be removed, the Dems don't have the numbers to gt it through so in a way I agree with Nunes that it's a bit of a circus act.


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## Mudball (Nov 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Joking apart - what the hell is going on? Is Trump bonkers or is he just a dangerous autocrat given a largely supine GOP.

Tweeting derogatory and threatening messages about a witness in an impeachment investigation whilst the witness is actually being questioned - with the clear implications for further potential witnessses.  Has he truly not heard of witness tampering - *or does he just not care* - he feels he can blatantly break the law in full sight of all in the belief that by him just saying â€˜fake newsâ€™ or â€˜witch huntâ€™ itâ€™ll be ignored by his core support.

Just as well no politicians in this country have any connections with Trump or are looking to take lessons from him.  This country would be in a fine mess given we have no written constitution to measure behaviour against.  Just the rule of law.
		
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did he not say that he could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and his supporters would still support him


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## User20204 (Nov 16, 2019)

Wednesday's testimony from Sondland may well be world wide news dependant on whether his memory hold up or not. He has got himself in to a right old pickle having to go back  change his original deposition.

He could potentially blow the whole thing wide open and condemn Trump there and then or take a bullet for him but if he does, he's likely to go to jail for about ten years first for perjury.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Wednesday's testimony from Sondland may well be world wide news dependant on whether his memory hold up or not. He has got himself in to a right old pickle having to go back  change his original deposition.

He could potentially blow the whole thing wide open and condemn Trump there and then or take a bullet for him but if he does, he's likely to go to jail for about ten years first for perjury.
		
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That's it...it comes down to what Sondland remembers and how much he is willing to perjure himself.

I'm thinking Trump might already have told Sondland that he'll get a Presidential pardon if following his appearance he is found guilty of misleading congress or perjury.  There are now a few folks who were sat around a restaurant table who have stated that they heard Trump on the phone to Sondland talking only really about the importance of getting the Ukrainian Pres. to make a public statement about Ukrainian investigations into Biden and the business interests of Biden's son.

Seems that the Dems have decided that they must no longer respond to the stuff Trump's lickspittle GOP Representatives and Senators are spouting.  And so this weekend Nancy Pelosi on the US's Ukrainian Ambassador and other stiff the Trump's GOP dudes have been spouting.  I've rather thought Pelosi a bit dithery - but she did the stuff here...calm, rational and logical...unlike Trump.  And Brian Tyler Cohen lists the talking-points (aka lies, deceits and misinformation) the GOP are trying to push to confuse the US electorate.


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## User20204 (Nov 18, 2019)

I follow him also, he's really good but by the same token if you follow any Fox news stuff or GOP you get a totally different spin on it all. I agree that Pelosi does come over as a bit dither y but the Dems do seem far more in control than the Repulicans. 

David Holmes is the one who has/is giving a testimony in the closed door hearing just now who heard the call between Trump and Sondland, if his evidence is good, he's be in front of the cameras next week. 

Watched one of Brian Tyler Cohen vids last night where he had Jim Jordan saying it was all second hand accounts, and he (Brian Tyler Cohen) went on to say they (Republicans) must be so stupid if that's their defence because next up is Vindman (sp?) who was in on the call and who twice raised concerns about it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I follow him also, he's really good but by the same token *if you follow any Fox news stuff or GOP you get a totally different spin on it all.* I agree that Pelosi does come over as a bit dither y but the Dems do seem far more in control than the Repulicans.

David Holmes is the one who has/is giving a testimony in the closed door hearing just now who heard the call between Trump and Sondland, if his evidence is good, he's be in front of the cameras next week.

Watched one of Brian Tyler Cohen vids last night where he had Jim Jordan saying it was all second hand accounts, and he (Brian Tyler Cohen) went on to say they (Republicans) must be so stupid if that's their defence because next up is Vindman (sp?) who was in on the call and who twice raised concerns about it.
		
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Yes - I watched the one BTC did on JJ.  *Indeed *- and Brian Stelter on Fox's coverage (again as you follow you may have seen this).  I also just love Cenk Uygur and Ana Kasparian of TYT.


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## User20204 (Nov 18, 2019)

Yep watched that one. For me this is one of the reasons he won't be removed is because depending on which channels you follow would have you believe he's bang to rights or nothing to see here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Yep watched that one. For me this is one of the reasons he won't be removed is because depending on which channels you follow would have you believe he's bang to rights or nothing to see here.
		
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Today and the coming couple of days will be very interesting - for those who care to watch and listen...

Could never happen here - could it?


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## Mudball (Nov 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Today and the coming couple of days will be very interesting - for those who care to watch and listen...

*Could never happen here - could it?*

Click to expand...

Wonâ€™t bet against that... the battle lines are being drawn up.. there is a steady stream of people wanting to cast the BBC as left wing, anti-Brexit etc. Social platforms are already spilt up and have become an echo chamber already. 
Donâ€™t get started on which of our politicos lies the most.


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## User20204 (Nov 18, 2019)

BBC left wing ? You're at the winds ups aren't you ? First time I have ever heard that being said, the British establishment being left wing


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## larmen (Nov 18, 2019)

Rudy being investigated by the state of NY which means no pardon by Donald. Is he flipping? He always says he has insurance, but he also says a lot other rubbish.


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## User20204 (Nov 18, 2019)

I predict the two Ukrainians will sing like canaries for a plea bargain which in turn will sell both Trump and Rudy down the river, also, if Sondland sings he'll be found dead in mysterious circumstances in the months/years to come.


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## User20204 (Nov 18, 2019)

Just been reading up on how this goes:

The  Senate conducts the inquiry then vote on whether or not it proceeds to impeachment. 
From there it goes to the House of Representatives where the senators act as prosecutors, and the House act as jury. 
For the president to be removed there needs to be a two thirds majority.

The Republicans have 53 and the Democrats 45 with 2 independents. 

This is where I start to believe that the Republicans know that it just becomes a circus and a show trial because they are not going to vote to remove their own President as at least 20 would need to cross the floor.

No president has ever been removed from office.


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## larmen (Nov 18, 2019)

The democrats know that nothing will happen, but they want the 53 Republican senators to stop dodging the cameras and putting on paper thatchy see nothing wrong.
Currently you have people like Lindsey Graham saying they didn't read the reports, but once in trial he has to vote.


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## User20204 (Nov 18, 2019)

I presume you mean House representatives, rather than senators. It gets all confusing with which house we are talking about.


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## larmen (Nov 19, 2019)

No, I mean senate. The house is going to refer to the senate with a 100% partisan vote. More or less. At this point Donald is impeached and it is down to the senate to remove. 100 senators, 53 to 47 for the reps. But the dems want them to vote anyway to get them all t declare their side before the 2020 elections.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

larmen said:



			The democrats know that nothing will happen, but they want the 53 Republican senators to stop dodging the cameras and putting on paper thatchy see nothing wrong.
Currently you have people like Lindsey Graham saying they didn't read the reports, but once in trial he has to vote.
		
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As Joe and Mika (love her  ) say enough times on their MSNBC morning show - Republican Congressmen and Senators will sooner or later have to accept that there will be political life after Trump - and if they want to have one themselves then they will at some point have to answer on their 'blind/absolutist' support of Trump.  They might be able to wax lyrical on how their support of Trump was completely vindicated by subsequent events.  But they might not.

Some interesting hearings today.  Will be embarrassing when Trump and his acolytes make (as they most probably will) the 'they are Never Trumpers' accusation that they have made against previous witnesses - to today's witnesses - Vindman, Williams, Volker and Morrison - when each and every one of them are serving or have have served in quite or very senior positions in Trump's Administration - and who have very immediate knowledge of Ukraine; the conversation with the Ukrainian Pres. and/or the call between Trump and Sondland.


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## User20204 (Nov 19, 2019)

Schiff laying in to them in his initial address.


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## User20204 (Nov 19, 2019)

Watching it live is fascinating, the guy Vindman is a warrior.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Watching it live is fascinating, the guy Vindman is a warrior.
		
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They GOP had a real go at Vindman didn't they.  Not sure they went in so hard on Wlliams, and haven't caught up with how Volker and Morrison fared.  Strikes me that the main line of attack by the GOP is process - with the substance almost accepted - though not quite stated.

The ludicrousness of the claim that Trump did nothing wrong because the funding was released almost beggars belief - I attempt to rob a bank but am chased out and then later apprehended.  Honest Judge - I did nothing wrong as my attempted armed robbery failed...

Then there is the assertion that the two guys having the conversation have said they were cool with how the call went...notwithstanding the fact that we know that the Ukrainian government were discussing what they would do without the funding and what they could do to get it released.  And I can just see the Ukrainian President openly telling the world that the PotUS is lying about the call.  Yes - that's going to happen...the GOP would go mental over political interference and the 'lying' (as they would put it) of the Ukrainian President.

You'd laugh if they weren't dead serious.

But soon - Sondland...must go check Youtube Live Streaming.


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## User20204 (Nov 20, 2019)

Morrison got himself a bit tied up and tbh I found both their testimonies a bit tedious. As for Sondland I think he will plead the 5th on a number of questions so I don't expect there to be any great news out of what he says.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Morrison got himself a bit tied up and tbh I found both their testimonies a bit tedious. As for Sondland I think he will plead the 5th on a number of questions so I don't expect there to be any great news out of what he says.
		
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I am not so sure.  Just been watching.  They all knew about the quid pro quo.  Trump, Pompeo, Giuliani - the lot.

Only wriggle room I heard is that Sondland was saying at some point that he can't remember Trump actually telling him directly about the QPQ for the military aid - but he was told by someone - it might have been Trump, Pompeo or Giuliani - and speaking directly with Trump, Trump never dissuaded Sondland from the understanding that that was exactly what the PotUS expected from Ukraine.


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## User20204 (Nov 20, 2019)

I've seen enough to know now it will make no odds to Nunes and the Republicans. They will just play it off as nothing to see here as they have always done.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

Yup.  It'll all be ignored.  I gave up after listening a bit to Nunes and to to the Counsel for the GOP.  The GOP going to great efforts to make their one and only point that it was Trump speaking to the Ukrainian President - and no matter who else knew or heard what from whoever whenever about what was said or the background to the conversation - it's all second hand and that the only people who should be believed are the two Presidents.  Indeed I suspect that even were the Ukrainian president to 'blow the lid' on it all, the Republicans would simply make a huge noise about him interfering with internal US affairs and that he should just keep out.


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## larmen (Nov 20, 2019)

They are so partisan, they would even try to blow away a confession.
Actually, I think they already tried that.

But as soon as Trump is out of the office (impeachment, 2020 or 2024 election) some prosecutors, state and federal, will have a good go at him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

And today's witnesses - David Holmes and a certain very scary Dr Fiona Hill (she sounds like a solid lass from the NE England).  Well I don't know what Nunes and the GOP counsel will make of them - but oof!.  Seemed pretty clear their understanding, knowledge and evidence about what was going on.  And as for Sondland claiming yesterday that he really, honestly, truly didn't know the connection between Burisma and the Bidens - well Hill and Holmes are very clear that *everybody *knew.

Dr Fiona Hill view today on some tactics of the GOP in respect of Russia interference in the 2016 election and that it was Ukraine






Meanwhile back in Trump-town yesterday - the PotUS has a bit of paper on which in big but not quite joined-up writing he has written what Sondland evidenced about a call he had with Trump - the call being AFTER the whistleblowers concerns were made known to the White House - and so Trump knew he'd been rumbled.

He's thought 'I know - I'll speak to Sondland and pretend I didn't know anything about this quid pro quo thing - that I wanted nothing from the Ukrainian President'  And that is it - that'll sort it.  To Trump and the GOP nothing else matters other than Trump pretending after he was caught that he never knew anything about it.

Funny if it wasn't quite to risible.


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## User20204 (Nov 21, 2019)

See is you can find the clip where Democrat Maloney got fired into Sondland, it's a short clip, you'll probably find it on MSNBC's YT page, I was frightened after that clip. 

I thought Sondland made it clear they were all in on it, in his words, everyone was in the loop. 

Also check out Seth Myers with his "closer look" segment, very funny.


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## User20204 (Nov 21, 2019)

Watching Fiona Hill live now, the US must be on the edge of their seats watching it, it's mind blowing.

All the guys who failed to answer their subpoena are probably wishing they could go there now and give their side.

Jim Jordan is making an absolute erse of himself.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 21, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Watching Fiona Hill live now, the US must be on the edge of their seats watching it, it's mind blowing.

All the guys who failed to answer their subpoena are probably wishing they could go there now and give their side.

Jim Jordan is making an absolute erse of himself.
		
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What channel/broadcaster ?


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## User20204 (Nov 21, 2019)

Go on youtube and various channels are broadcasting it live. C-SPAN is what I have it on at the moment.


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## User20204 (Nov 21, 2019)

Dr Hill is the most impressive talking witness I've watched yet. Not specifically to dam Trump more her whole demeanour and professional manner.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Go on youtube and various channels are broadcasting it live. C-SPAN is what I have it on at the moment.
		
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Currently live on Sky Ch 504


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## williamalex1 (Nov 21, 2019)

I'm watching it on C_SPAN 3 very interesting.


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## User20204 (Nov 21, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm watching it on C_SPAN 3 very interesting.
		
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If you haven't been following it closely you may find it quite difficult to understand who is who and with this being the last witnesses there won't be much more to see until it goes to the senate for the hearing of impeachment.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 21, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			If you haven't been following it closely you may find it quite difficult to understand who is who and with this being the last witnesses there won't be much more to see until it goes to the senate for the hearing of impeachment.
		
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I've watched it with interest since you pointed it out. TBH it seems to be rehearsed/ scripted and too word perfect to be off the cuff.
 But good to watch without having hecklers shouting out like school boys.
 Thanks for the heads up Happy H.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 21, 2019)

Im waiting for the Netflix boxset to come out ðŸ˜†


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## gmc40 (Nov 27, 2019)

The President of the United States


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199718185865535490


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## larmen (Nov 27, 2019)

Must be fake, I remember him a lot more chubby and less defined in terms of muscles.

Is this the equivalent to Putin riding topless on a horse? Can we expect a calendar of Donald? Maybe in time for the secret santa season?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

And so we have...

Trump: _I didn't send Rudi to Ukraine_

The bus is coming along the road and Trump is going to throw Giuliani under it - so we ask what the 'insurance' Giuliani says he has were that to happen.

And we hear today that back in September two officials in the _White House Office of Management and Budget_ resigned over there being no good reason given for the hold put on military aid to Ukraine.

Meanwhile John Bolton has tweeted that _'our countries commitment to our national security priorities is under attack from within'   _What can he mean...?

And so do we see the White House start to turn?  

Mulvaney sits and sweats.  He always sweats - I wonder why...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

This is nuts.   He's not been in the UK a day.  Does he know he's lying?

_I've never thought about the NHS being on the table in trade talks I don't know where the rumour came from we want nothing to do with it _- when we all know that he said everything was on the table...including the NHS
_I called the result of the Referendum in a Press Conference when I was in Turnberry to open my golf course the day before _- he wasn't in Scotland the day before the Referendum - and he didn't call it at the non-existent press conference.  He was in Scotland the day *after *the referendum.
And of course he tells us that he doesn't know Prince Andrew - when he has been in a small group photograph with the Prince and Epstein.  I suppose Trump wasn't introduced to the Prince, but I can't imagine that with Trump's averred great love of our royalty.
Dear goodness.  What is going on in the mind of that guy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

oooh - Trump so not happy with Trudeau...though perhaps not surprising what Trudeau thinks of Trump given...

...back at the ranch, impeachment proceedings commence properly - and no matter what Trump might think of Adam Schiff - his rant about Schiff in the NATO press conference with Trudeau was unseemly at best - a "deranged human being" and a "liar" - well, as they say, it takes one...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Speaker Pelosi saying Dems are ready to move ahead with drafting articles of impeachment of the PotUS.  Only the 3rd time in US history - and even though it's unlikely to run to Trump being removed from the Presidency this will be a stain on his record - a stain that be forever on his record - that he does not have the confidence of Congress - that he was negligent in protecting and adhering to the constitution of the United States.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Speaker Pelosi saying Dems are ready to move ahead with drafting articles of impeachment of the PotUS.  Only the 3rd time in US history - and even though it's unlikely to run to Trump being removed from the Presidency this will be a stain on his record - a stain that be forever on his record - that he does not have the confidence of Congress - that he was negligent in protecting and adhering to the constitution of the United States.
		
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I was listening to an American commentator on the radio the other day. He was saying how impeachment is strengthening Trump in his key areas. His supporters see it as an attempt by the establishment to stop 'their man' and they are rallying behind him. In effect, the Democrats are playing into his hands, handing him ammo to work with.

Trump doesn't care what the Democrats think, what the New York (in his eyes) media thinks, what Congress thinks. He is focussed on his core supporters and winning the next election. The rest is white noise and he is using it to his benefit.

The Democrats need to wise up to him otherwise he will win again next year. He is playing a different game to them and they have yet to realise and adapt.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was listening to an American commentator on the radio the other day. He was saying how impeachment is strengthening Trump in his key areas. His supporters see it as an attempt by the establishment to stop 'their man' and they are rallying behind him. In effect, the Democrats are playing into his hands, handing him ammo to work with.

Trump doesn't care what the Democrats think, what the New York (in his eyes) media thinks, what Congress thinks. He is focussed on his core supporters and winning the next election. The rest is white noise and he is using it to his benefit.

The Democrats need to wise up to him otherwise he will win again next year. He is playing a different game to them and they have yet to realise and adapt.
		
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Quite - and that is why the Dems have been very reluctant to initiate impeachment proceeding.  They know it's hardening the core vote - but the polling figures in support of impeachment proceedings are strongly in favour of going ahead - even although though numbers wanting Trump removed as a result of the proceedings are currently much less so.

What happens in the Senate depends upon how much what we see from the proceedings change the views in any GOP senator's constituency - and therefore the support a GOP senator gives to Trump.  They are mostly very behind Trump - but if the evidence presented starts to swing voters they might question the logic of maintaining their support of an absurdity.  At the moment Trump is well safe - but his record is irrevocably stained.

All that besides - Trump is a shocking self-serving liar and acts in unconstitutional ways - so unless he is formally called out for his behaviour we will have more Trumps.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite - and that is why the Dems have been very reluctant to initiate impeachment proceeding.  They know it's hardening the core vote - but the polling figures in support of impeachment proceedings are strongly in favour of going ahead - even although though numbers wanting Trump removed as a result of the proceedings are currently much less so.

What happens in the Senate depends upon how much what we see from the proceedings change the views in any GOP senator's constituency - and therefore the support a GOP senator gives to Trump.  They are mostly very behind Trump - but if the evidence presented starts to swing voters they might question the logic of maintaining their support of an absurdity.  At the moment Trump is well safe - but his record is irrevocably stained.
		
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To Trump and his supporters this is a conspiracy so there will be no stain. The circle Trump mixes in will see no stain. He is Teflon in his own world, the rest of the world does not matter to him.

You are giving him too much credit in one way and not enough in another. The genius of Trump, in an election sense, is that he has identified his vote and he is making absolutely no attempt whatsoever to appeal to anyone else. Democrat voters are lost to him so he doesn't bother with them, in fact he demonises them. He has split the country, made the US a laughing stock around the world. Do you think that bothers him or his country club pals? Not a bit of it. Impeachment is helping Trump, not hindering him. They have walked into this and his team must be laughing. Doh.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To Trump and his supporters this is a conspiracy so there will be no stain. The circle Trump mixes in will see no stain. He is Teflon in his own world, the rest of the world does not matter to him.

You are giving him too much credit in one way and not enough in another. The genius of Trump, in an election sense, is that he has identified his vote and he is making absolutely no attempt whatsoever to appeal to anyone else. Democrat voters are lost to him so he doesn't bother with them, in fact he demonises them. He has split the country, made the US a laughing stock around the world. Do you think that bothers him or his country club pals? Not a bit of it. Impeachment is helping Trump, not hindering him. They have walked into this and his team must be laughing. Doh.
		
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Whether Trump's supporters like it or not - whether they see it or not - is not what the historical record will say.  Future readers of US history will be detached from the insanity of Trump and will just read of a president impeached for lies and misdemeanors - and breaches of the constitution of the United States.


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## Wolf (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether Trump's supporters like it or not - whether they see it or not - is not what the historical record will say.  Future readers of US history will be detached from the insanity of Trump and will just read of a president impeached for lies and misdemeanors - and breaches of the constitution of the United States.
		
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When it comes to discussing US history his impeachment will very unlikely even be classed as a stain in his resume and only democrats will bother with it because all those following him see it as unjust so just like now at best it will split opinions whilst others will always defend it as democratic whining. Sad because as outsiders we can see whats accurate but thats how the US voters will see it. 

As for the issue with Trudeau theres history there and in some instances i can see justification on certain things Trump has said about him and called him out on. Especially in regards of the minimum 2% GDP argument where Canada & Trudeau have fallen short for years in this area but still expect the same rights other NATO countries have who meet the target. Then theres the fact Trudeau & others have been openly caught on film mocking Trump. Whether we like him or others like him the people in power and attending NATO conferences should behave with a level of decorum and not like children mocking other leaders especially in the case where one is actually meeting the criteria sey and the other has continued to fail.


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## ger147 (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether Trump's supporters like it or not - whether they see it or not - is not what the historical record will say.  Future readers of US history will be detached from the insanity of Trump and will just read of a president impeached for lies and misdemeanors - and breaches of the constitution of the United States.
		
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And being found Not Guilty...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

ger147 said:



			And being found Not Guilty...
		
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Or - given the assessments of all but one of the Constitutional Academics asked for their view - Guilty - but according to the Senate - Not Proven...

And of course one reason he will most likely not be found guilty, is that he has prevented key witnesses (Mulvaney, Pompeo, Pence et al) from testifying - which - being obstruction of justice - is in itself an impeachable offence.


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## ger147 (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...according to the Senate...
		
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...Not Guilty.


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## IanM (Dec 6, 2019)

Having breakfast in a hotel in Southampton with colleagues yesterday, one of them remarked that the UK election was getting like America in that he felt none of the leading candidates was suitable for the office.

With that an elderly American, presumably waiting to get on a ship, went on a turbo-nutter-rant about Trump and how wonderful Mrs Clinton would have been.  My mate then trotted out a list of Clinton "issues" and it escalated....

...suffice to say,  rational debate about this is no longer possible.


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## User20204 (Dec 6, 2019)

ger147 said:



			...Not Guilty.
		
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Not Guilty on the basis that turkeys don't vote for Christmas.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Not Guilty on the basis that turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
		
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Except, Judge Napolitano on Fox has said he thinks Trump will testify - and appeared to almost be goading Trump into testifying, saying how FABULOUS it would be were Trump to do that and SMASH his critics and such as Schiff with the GREATEST testimony and words- watched by the BIGGEST TV audience EVER of possibly 250million. 🤪

And if enough Americans decided that they’d want to eat goose or ham at Christmas and that turkeys should all be released into the wild...the turkeys just might 🙃


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Democrat council is getting tore to shreds by GOP Collins although what he's getting pressed on isn't that relevant to the Impeachment as it's all about who leaked Nunes's call records.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

The irony of Collins giving him grief for Shifft not attending has clearly been lost on him which I expect the Dems to bounce right back at them with.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

The vote on a recess is an absolute farce which is pretty much what the whole thing is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2019)

Love CNN's Don Lemon and his take on the meme put out by Trump (or his team) _"this is crazy, are you people insane?...stupid juvenile meme game"_

...and John Kasich's view of Trump and the aid (Kasich an ex-GOP Ohio Governor) _"..what troubles me, as much as anything, is the issue of the truth"_

_The truth is fact - it is not a matter of opinion...if we can't agree on things of fact you tell me where this country is going for our children_

And I listen and reflect on the UK political situation of the last few weeks and months especially.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Love CNN's Don Lemon and his take on the meme put out by Trump (or his team) _"this is crazy, are you people insane?...stupid juvenile meme game"_

...and John Kasich's view of Trump and the aid (Kasich an ex-GOP Ohio Governor) _"..what troubles me, as much as anything, is the issue of the truth"_

_The truth is fact - it is not a matter of opinion...if we can't agree on things of fact you tell me where this country is going for our children_

And I listen and reflect on the UK political situation of the last few weeks and months especially.







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There for the grace of god.

I see he got triggered on Twitter about Greta being on the front of Time. As the president of the US taking time out to troll a 16 year old with Aspergers on twitter is completely normal, nothing to see here....


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There for the grace of god.

I see he got triggered on Twitter about Greta being on the front of Time. As the president of the US taking time out to troll a 16 year old with Aspergers on twitter is completely normal, nothing to see here....
		
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He just is not a very nice person, is he?


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## MadAdey (Dec 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He just is not a very nice person, is he?
		
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He is a despicable human being who wants the world to revolve around him. If my kids acted and spoke like he does I would slap the stupid out of them. His wife is not much better, her big thing as first lady was to take up the fight against cyber bullying, even though her husband is one of the biggest cyber bullies out there.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50785442

Good piece by Jon Sopel. Democrats take note.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

I've read a few articles warning the Dems over what is likely to happen if they go for such as Sanders.  This on CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/13/opinions/uk-election-sends-democrats-warning-avlon/index.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

Just wondering what Trump thought he was up to day ago when he had a go at one of the 230 Dem Congressmen/women who voted to impeach him.  That he chose to have a go at a female Representative whose Dem Representative (and WWII War Veteran) husband died ten months ago...?

And so the leader of the free world tells a rally how he had supported the Congresswoman when her husband died (he actually lied about how he supported her - but that's almost by-the-by) - and then indicated and suggested to the crowd that her husband would be looking up from hell at her voting to impeach him...

Mind you - the crowd did rather groan as the deceased Congressman was well respected in the state (Michigan)...

And as you'd imagine - his press flunkies made pathetic excuses for him - with no indication of an apology for Trump overstep or misspeak.  Nothing but excuses and attacks at those pointing out that maybe his attack on the Congresswoman by referencing her deceased husband was just a bit inappropriate, insensitive and unnecessary.

He really is a monster.

But the Senators of the GoP - in their sycophancy - will not dare vote to remove him from office.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

He will be okay the republicans are too bent to correct their mistakes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			He will be okay the republicans are too bent to correct their mistakes
		
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Sadly that's the gist of it it seems...


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2019)

The irony is that the impeachment 'war' will enhance his profile among his supporters


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## larmen (Dec 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			He will be okay the republicans are too bent to correct their mistakes
		
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They can’t do different otherwise he tweets about them.


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## Cherry13 (Jan 3, 2020)

Looks like today we’ve seen his response to the impeachment process.

scary, but I don’t see how either side will be able to climb down from this.  It’s only going to escalate, and that escalation will involve Russia and China as well.  Sad start to a new decade that the prospect of war has increased tenfold and we are only 3 days in.


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## gmc40 (Jan 3, 2020)

Seen this posted elsewhere

https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro....ama-iran-hasnt-aged-well-11994278/amp/?espv=1


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

Please feel free to continue dissing our president.

If only those who benefitted from his policies voted for him, that wouldn't be very many votes.

His working class supporters are inbred, toothless, illiterate, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, theocratic, misogynist, parasitic, mentally and physically diseased troglodytes.  Because Trump encourages their boorish behavior with his own, they vote *directly against their own economic interests*.  It's more important to them to be told that they're better than somebody.  They're obviously not better than anybody.


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## hovis (Jan 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Please feel free to continue dissing our president.

If only those who benefitted from his policies voted for him, that wouldn't be very many votes.

His working class supporters are inbred, toothless, illiterate, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, theocratic, misogynist, parasitic, mentally and physically diseased troglodytes.  Because Trump encourages their boorish behavior with his own, they vote *directly against their own economic interests*.  It's more important to them to be told that they're better than somebody.  They're obviously not better than anybody.
		
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I'm getting mixed signals mate. do you like or dislike trump? 😁


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## drdel (Jan 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Please feel free to continue dissing our president.

If only those who benefitted from his policies voted for him, that wouldn't be very many votes.

His working class supporters are inbred, toothless, illiterate, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, theocratic, misogynist, parasitic, mentally and physically diseased troglodytes.  Because Trump encourages their boorish behavior with his own, they vote *directly against their own economic interests*.  It's more important to them to be told that they're better than somebody.  They're obviously not better than anybody.
		
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Had his predecessor not allowed Iran to act without impunity we would not be in the situation that Trump inherited and upon which he must act.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Had his predecessor not allowed Iran to act without impunity we would not be in the situation that Trump inherited and upon which he must act.
		
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OK.  I'm not getting into a political argument on a nice golf forum.  
I'm just being free with my own opinions.
My hatred of the cretin Trump is seething and visceral.  Former friends and relatives who voted for him have been removed from my life.
As for "offing" that Iranian general, I have not cultivated an opinion on that yet.
But Trump pulled out of the Iranian agreement with which our allies agreed and are still signatories.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2020)

How much did Johnson know about this in advance of Trump ordering the assassination of the Iranian Leader?  What of British citizens and service personnel in Iran? What of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe?

What next?  In return for a 'great' trade deal with the US of A will UK be required to provide political support in the UN for US military action in Iran - will UK be required to provide military support / partnership to the US in Iran?

Oh joys when we have Mr Insanely Dangerous as PotUS and a potentially subservient UK government.

All just one massive deliberate diversion from the Impeachment proceedings as Trump will be pointing at the Dems as being unpatriotic if they undermine or weaken him through the impeachment.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How much did Johnson know about this in advance of Trump ordering the assassination of the Iranian Leader?  What of British citizens and service personnel in Iran? What of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe?

What next?  In return for a 'great' trade deal with the US of A will UK be required to provide political support in the UN for US military action in Iran - will UK be required to provide military support / partnership to the US in Iran?

Oh joys when we have Mr Insanely Dangerous as PotUS and a potentially subservient UK government.
		
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Great Britain is a nuclear power and not in any way subservient to the US government.

Go back to the UK-Argentine War.  The US was a member of both NATO (with the UK) AND The Organization of American States (with Argentina)
You did not worry about bringing troops to the Falkland Islands when we were technically required to physically oppose any attack on our hemisphere.

Evacuate Brits from Iran or don't as you see fit.


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## IanM (Jan 3, 2020)

I guess if Mrs Clinton and her chums hadn't used the same sort of language as you, about a significant core of the electorate, she'd now be President.    (sounds vaguely familiar)

Any well run campaign without the snotty arrogance would have beaten the_ Orange Faced Oaf _comfortably.   But no.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

IanM said:



			I guess if Mrs Clinton and her chums hadn't used the sort of language as you, about a significant core of the electorate, she'd now be President.    (sounds vaguely familiar)

Any well run campaign without the snotty arrogance would have beaten the_ Orange Faced Oaf _comfortably.   But no.
		
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Americans of all ideological inclinations are genetically incapable of  avoiding snotty arrogance.  And you already knew that.
Secretary Clinton did indeed run a sloppy campaign, but the Clintons are Republican-Lites anyway.  I voted for the Secretary holding my nose.  I had supported Senator Sanders in the Democratic Primary.

Our Democratic Party is actually two parties trying to share the same tent.

I'm a Social Democrat.  "Centrist" or "moderate" Democrats are light years to the right of your Tories.  

Our Republicans are outright fascists who would be well subjected to a Stalinesque purge.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Great Britain is a nuclear power and not in any way subservient to the US government.

Go back to the UK-Argentine War.  The US was a member of both NATO (with the UK) AND The Organization of American States (with Argentina)
You did not worry about bringing troops to the Falkland Islands when we were technically required to physically oppose any attack on our hemisphere.

Evacuate Brits from Iran or don't as you see fit.
		
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I think the main difference being the falklands being a British territory, I think if someone invaded Hawaii. There would rightly so be an outcry in America.

That aside, it’s a good job you never joined the forum when we were discussing Brexit and the general election. Some of the politicians discussed make Trump, look and sound like Einstein.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2020)

IanM said:



			I guess if Mrs Clinton and her chums hadn't used the same sort of language as you, about a significant core of the electorate, she'd now be President.    (sounds vaguely familiar)

Any well run campaign without the snotty arrogance would have beaten the_ Orange Faced Oaf _comfortably.   But no.
		
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Careful - with calling Trump the OFO you’ll get pulled up for referring to the PotUS in a disparaging way...


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Careful - with calling Trump the OFO you’ll get pulled up for referring to the PotUS in a disparaging way...
		
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with what the old Boomer said about POTUS I would suggest OFO ( whatever it means) is quite tame 😁


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## Dando (Jan 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Careful - with calling Trump the OFO you’ll get pulled up for referring to the PotUS in a disparaging way...
		
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We all know that’s your job!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Well can I just say congrats to Trump for his actions of stirring the biggest hornets nest in the world - 

What is it with the stupid Yank Presidents that they feel they must be the worlds police

The world is unstable enough as it is without poking a very dangerous country in Iran - when this all kicks off I hope to god that NATO stay out of it and let the US go alone with any further conflicts in Iran and the Middle East - enough British blood was split following the last stupid yank president and I hope our PM doesn’t follow like a lapdog - oh it’s Boris 🤦‍♂️


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## williamalex1 (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well can I just say congrats to Trump for his actions of stirring the biggest hornets nest in the world -

What is it with the stupid Yank Presidents that they feel they must be the worlds police

The world is unstable enough as it is without poking a very dangerous country in Iran - when this all kicks off I hope to god that NATO stay out of it and let the US go alone with any further conflicts in Iran and the Middle East - enough British blood was split following the last stupid yank president and I hope our PM doesn’t follow like a lapdog - oh it’s Boris 🤦‍♂️
		
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I feared something like this from him, absolute madman, this will kick off big time .


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2020)

Are some forum members actually suggesting that this action was taken on the say so of one man. The very same actions that Obama was looking at during his presidency.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are some forum members actually suggesting that this action was taken on the say so of one man. The very same actions that Obama was looking at during his presidency.
		
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No, but it couldn't have happened without his approval  could it


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are some forum members actually suggesting that this action was taken on the say so of one man. The very same actions that Obama was looking at during his presidency.
		
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Trump is the exact sort of person to carry out this action on his own say so - either way it’s happened under his watch

As for Obama - I can’t recall it actually happening when he was President - can you confirm when it happened ?


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Trump is the exact sort of person to carry out this action on his own say so - either way it’s happened under his watch

As for Obama - I can’t recall it actually happening when he was President - can you confirm when it happened ?
		
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I said that Obama was looking at taking action against Iran, not he did.

As to your suggestion that the US might have taken this action on the say so of one man, you are obviously kidding.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I said that Obama was looking at taking action against Iran, not he did.

As to your suggestion that the US might have taken this action on the say so of one man, you are obviously kidding.
		
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What exactly did Obama do against Iran ?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/01/03/trump-obama-war-iran-093323

Or is it just normal Trumpisms ? 

And yes there is no doubt Trump would have ordered the attack - is that too mad to think then ? 

Are you that Pro Trump that you think this was a good thing he has just ordered ?


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well can I just say congrats to Trump for his actions of stirring the biggest hornets nest in the world -

What is it with the stupid Yank Presidents that they feel they must be the worlds police

The world is unstable enough as it is without poking a very dangerous country in Iran - when this all kicks off I hope to god that NATO stay out of it and let the US go alone with any further conflicts in Iran and the Middle East - enough British blood was split following the last stupid yank president and I hope our PM doesn’t follow like a lapdog - oh it’s Boris 🤦‍♂️
		
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The problem with a 'hornets nest' is if you leave it alone it will keep sending hornets to sting you. You either neutralise or eradicate it other wise casualties will just keep on rising.

These 'nations' are the origins of terrorist assaults that have injured and killed many Western people - how many deaths and casualties are we in the West prepared to accept and for how long?

Its all very well believing your enemies will obey the Geneva Convention but be warned those 'gentlemen's' agreements don't work against fanatics - left undeterred bullies/fanatics will just become more emboldened and dangerous over a increasingly wider geographic region


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly did Obama do against Iran ?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/01/03/trump-obama-war-iran-093323

Or is it just normal Trumpisms ?

And yes there is no doubt Trump would have ordered the attack - is that too mad to think then ?

Are you that Pro Trump that you think this was a good thing he has just ordered ?
		
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Are you on the Horlick again or just trying one of your trolling windups. Just try reading the posts.

Where have I said I was pro Trump.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			The problem with a 'hornets nest' is if you leave it alone it will keep sending hornets to sting you. You either neutralise or eradicate it other wise casualties will just keep on rising.

These 'nations' are the origins of terrorist assaults that have injured and killed many Western people - how many deaths and casualties are we in the West prepared to accept and for how long?

Its all very well believing your enemies will obey the Geneva Convention but be warned those 'gentlemen's' agreements don't work against fanatics - left undeterred bullies/fanatics will just become more emboldened and dangerous over a increasingly wider geographic region
		
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And how did it work out last time “Western Nations “ decided that they should neutralise or eradicate these “nations” ? What happened to both Iraq and Afghanistan ? How many further western people lost their lives because the US decided to “neutralise” a Middle East nation 

And what do you think is going to happen now - they will have their revenge and then we will point fingers at them and it won’t be long before “boots on the ground “ . 

Trump and his team and have made a monumental error in public by carrying out this attack which is as close to declaring war as you can get 

I saw enough people lose their lives because the US and their “war on terror” - don’t want to see more lose their lives


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are you on the Horlick again or just trying one of your trolling windups. Just try reading the posts.

Where have I said I was pro Trump.
		
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Because you appear to be attempting to justify the actions of Trump and bringing in Obama for some “whataboutary” even though Obama did zero military action against Iran


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because you appear to be attempting to justify the actions of Trump and bringing in Obama for some “whataboutary” even though Obama did zero military action against Iran
		
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Where have I justified anything. Why is it when somebody posts something that doesn't fall into your way of thinking your use that stupid "whataboutary" quote. 

My original statement stands, do you honestly believe that the attack was instigated by one man.

As to my Obama statement, your Google powers seem to be failing you.


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## Wolf (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because you appear to be attempting to justify the actions of Trump and bringing in Obama for some “whataboutary” even though Obama did zero military action against Iran
		
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I think the point old Skier is making is that similar action was considered during Obama tenure for very simlar reasons that have now festered potentially forcing Trump's hand now. 

If you think that decision was made purely by Trump alone without intelligence being gathered over time and with guidance from military leaders then you'd be very blind to looking at full facts yourself. Which I'd have thought you'd understand as former military man. 

As for US war on terror thats merely a phrase they coined after 9/11 in retaliation for such an atrocity which any nation should respond to had it happened to them. The actual war on terror that other nations became embroiled in was because as a result of that attack NATO invoked Article 5 less than 24hrs after the attacks occured meaning member states had to come to the assistance of the US. Its not all down to one man, it never is theres always a collective decision involved. Whether you agree with tthe decisions to be involved or not is a totally different debate to that of who is singularly to blame for it all.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many further western people lost their lives because the US decided to “neutralise” a Middle East nation
		
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Can't stand Trump, without doubt he's a very loose canon. However, I don't see the previous conflict as the problem, the problem was that after promising support and help because they were going to get stuck in, they didn't and left the mess behind them. Dont forget Saddam was supported with funds and hardware when he was fighting Iran when it suited them.
Gaddafi was a huge thorn, they took him out, screwed up the country and left the mess that it is now because they renaged on the promises made to help them.
The US is only interested in it's own borders and self, and nothing will change that.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And how did it work out last time “Western Nations “ decided that they should neutralise or eradicate these “nations” ? What happened to both Iraq and Afghanistan ? How many further western people lost their lives because the US decided to “neutralise” a Middle East nation

And what do you think is going to happen now - they will have their revenge and then we will point fingers at them and it won’t be long before “boots on the ground “ .

Trump and his team and have made a monumental error in public by carrying out this attack which is as close to declaring war as you can get

I saw enough people lose their lives because the US and their “war on terror” - don’t want to see more lose their lives
		
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I can see your view but disagree. The west has been continually pushed - Trump/USA/West will always be on the 'back foot' against terrorism as ANY preemptive actions goes against the moral principles and democratic decision making. Diplomacy and UN has pretty much failed. Any decision can be easily be critiqued in hindsight by those enjoying the freedom of not having the responsibility.

You seem to advocate a 'do-nothing' policy: faced with the circumstances and given your criticism of Trump I wonder  and what would you think is a preferred course of action against a rogue state bent on acquiring a nuclear capability asap.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2020)

I dont see how anyone can have an opinion.  not one person on this forum has access to the Intel that lead trump to authorise this strike.  so we're just guessing.


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 4, 2020)

hovis said:



			I dont see how anyone can have an opinion.  not one person on this forum has access to the Intel that lead trump to authorise this strike.  so we're just guessing.
		
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Not much changes with the guessing. The only exception of course being The Brexit thread where quite a few had insider knowledge allegedl!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			I can see your view but disagree. The west has been continually pushed - Trump/USA/West will always be on the 'back foot' against terrorism as ANY preemptive actions goes against the moral principles and democratic decision making. Diplomacy and UN has pretty much failed. Any decision can be easily be critiqued in hindsight by those enjoying the freedom of not having the responsibility.

You seem to advocate a 'do-nothing' policy: faced with the circumstances and given your criticism of Trump I wonder  and what would you think is a preferred course of action against a rogue state bent on acquiring a nuclear capability asap.
		
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Iran have no nuclear capability at all and anything about want to acquire it is all subjective with not much proof 

Remember the treaty - i believe it was Trump who pulled out of it starting it all 

it wasn’t that long ago Bush decided he wanted to help the world and remove Hussain - lots of talk about WMD’s and that was the justification for that “invasion” - how many did they find in Iraq again ? Was it “zero” 

And now we have another US intelligence making lots of claims to attempt to justify their actions - we can see this from the western picture , imagine the picture from the other side - another western leader decides to be the world police again , what do we think will be the outcome from this ? Do we suddenly expect the extremists to stop ? Or do we think they will intensify and actually increase attacks. There is no doubt there will be revenge attacks against the Western and we will be in the firing line with more innocent lives to be lost. 

We as a nation lost many lives during the Iraq invasion and then subsequent ISIS attacks all down to Bush and his “intelligence” 

I lost friends and work colleagues before - I don’t want to see anymore being lost and the actions of Trump and his “intelligence” will lead to that IMO


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iran have no nuclear capability at all and anything about want to acquire it is all subjective with not much proof

Remember the treaty - i believe it was Trump who pulled out of it starting it all

it wasn’t that long ago Bush decided he wanted to help the world and remove Hussain - lots of talk about WMD’s and that was the justification for that “invasion” - how many did they find in Iraq again ? Was it “zero”

And now we have another US intelligence making lots of claims to attempt to justify their actions - we can see this from the western picture , imagine the picture from the other side - another western leader decides to be the world police again , what do we think will be the outcome from this ? Do we suddenly expect the extremists to stop ? Or do we think they will intensify and actually increase attacks. There is no doubt there will be revenge attacks against the Western and we will be in the firing line with more innocent lives to be lost.

We as a nation lost many lives during the Iraq invasion and then subsequent ISIS attacks all down to Bush and his “intelligence”

I lost friends and work colleagues before - I don’t want to see anymore being lost and the actions of Trump and his “intelligence” will lead to that IMO
		
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Nobody wants to see any lose of life but let's not forget our own government of the day supplied false intelligence for the invasion of Iraq.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iran have no nuclear capability at all and anything about want to acquire it is all subjective with not much proof

Remember the treaty - i believe it was Trump who pulled out of it starting it all

it wasn’t that long ago Bush decided he wanted to help the world and remove Hussain - lots of talk about WMD’s and that was the justification for that “invasion” - how many did they find in Iraq again ? Was it “zero”

And now we have another US intelligence making lots of claims to attempt to justify their actions - we can see this from the western picture , imagine the picture from the other side - another western leader decides to be the world police again , what do we think will be the outcome from this ? Do we suddenly expect the extremists to stop ? Or do we think they will intensify and actually increase attacks. There is no doubt there will be revenge attacks against the Western and we will be in the firing line with more innocent lives to be lost.

We as a nation lost many lives during the Iraq invasion and then subsequent ISIS attacks all down to Bush and his “intelligence”

I lost friends and work colleagues before - I don’t want to see anymore being lost and the actions of Trump and his “intelligence” will lead to that IMO
		
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Do you of know what this guy may have been planning against the USA and its allies, do you know what threat he was to peace and stability in the World?  We know nothing  about it on this forum and as such its best to not guess about the whys or wherefors that lead to this act. It just could be that if he was alive many peoples friends and colleagues could have lost their lives.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you of know what this guy may have been planning against the USA and its allies, do you know what threat he was to *peace and stability in the World?  *We know nothing  about it on this forum and as such its best to not guess about the whys or wherefors that lead to this act. It just could be that if he was alive many peoples friends and colleagues could have lost their lives.
		
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What peace and stability is that then ? I can’t remember the last time there was peace or stability - what’s the current alert state ? Pretty high for “peace and stability” 

Was the same thing said about when they went Hussain or Gaddafi ? 

I’m surprised they don’t go the people carrying out terror attacks in Israel 

So what will be the response when revenge attacks are carried out by Iran ? Will the USA now try and go for Qaani - he has slated Trump in public as well. Only have to see the current response to US Embassies in the Middle East to see what this has done


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What peace and stability is that then ? I can’t remember the last time there was peace or stability - what’s the current alert state ? Pretty high for “peace and stability”

Was the same thing said about when they went Hussain or Gaddafi ?

I’m surprised they don’t go the people carrying out terror attacks in Israel

So what will be the response when revenge attacks are carried out by Iran ? Will the USA now try and go for Qaani - he has slated Trump in public as well. Only have to see the current response to US Embassies in the Middle East to see what this has done
		
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No need to exaggerate. There has never been complete peace and stability in the World but like anything it can be considered on a continuum and as such increases or decreases can be measured.  

You fail to consider what the alternative scenario may be, for example Hussein had already invaded Quwate and was threatening to create more mayhem in the region, can you say our security would be better if he was left.  You say Iran has no nuclear weapons, how do you know what they have or how close they may be to gaining them.  You are of course entitled to an opinion but its just that, just like mine is.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 4, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I think if someone invaded Hawaii. There would rightly so be an outcry in America.
		
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It happened in December of 1941.

It took catastrophe in the Pacific to finally get us to help you (and the USSR) in Europe.
Because of their treaty with Japan, Germany and Italy had to reluctantly declare war on us... and then we were in.
Better late than never, i guess.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No need to exaggerate. There has never been complete peace and stability in the World but like anything it can be considered on a continuum and as such increases or decreases can be measured. 

You fail to consider what the alternative scenario may be, for example Hussein had already invaded Quwate and was threatening to create more mayhem in the region, can you say our security would be better if he was left.  You say Iran has no nuclear weapons, how do you know what they have or how close they may be to gaining them.  You are of course entitled to an opinion but its just that, just like mine is.
		
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The US invaded Iraq on the back of lies -and thousands lost their lives on the back of those lies including many British people. You cannot justify actions on the back of “alternative scenarios” or “maybes”.

Ever since the the invasion of Iraq and the actions against other Middle East countries with have seen in the UK the rise of Terrorist activities from Islamic Fundamentlists have we not ? 

The invasion of Iraq helped ensure ISIS become the beast that continues to kill and carry out Terrorist attacks as we speak - forgot Alternate scenarios , this is fact and real life - and more will continue to be targeted because of the recent actions 

You would have thought a lesson was learned after the Iraq invasion - it appears not. 

And yes Iran has no nuclear weapons - zero , no ability to launch a nuclear attack.

Maybe the US should concentrate on nations that do have a nuclear threat and carry out atrocities almost daily.


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The US invaded Iraq on the back of lies -and thousands lost their lives on the back of those lies including many British people. You cannot justify actions on the back of “alternative scenarios” or “maybes”.

Ever since the the invasion of Iraq and the actions against other Middle East countries with have seen in the UK the rise of Terrorist activities from Islamic Fundamentlists have we not ?

The invasion of Iraq helped ensure ISIS become the beast that continues to kill and carry out Terrorist attacks as we speak - forgot Alternate scenarios , this is fact and real life - and more will continue to be targeted because of the recent actions

You would have thought a lesson was learned after the Iraq invasion - it appears not.

And yes Iran has no nuclear weapons - zero , no ability to launch a nuclear attack.

Maybe the US should concentrate on nations that do have a nuclear threat and carry out atrocities almost daily.
		
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I agree in part but I just don't know about the nuclear weapons bit. I thought there was a report years ago that they had everything apart from the enriched uranium. They have, or had, the initiators and triggers. Not sure about the delivery systems.

Imagine the damage to the world's economies if just one nuclear weapon was detonated in the Saudi oil fields.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What peace and stability is that then ? I can’t remember the last time there was peace or stability - what’s the current alert state ? Pretty high for “peace and stability”

Was the same thing said about when they went Hussain or Gaddafi ?

I’m surprised they don’t go the people carrying out terror attacks in Israel

So what will be the response when revenge attacks are carried out by Iran ? Will the USA now try and go for Qaani - he has slated Trump in public as well. Only have to see the current response to US Embassies in the Middle East to see what this has done
		
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Taking out the despots that were Gaddafi and Hussain didn't create the problem, the problem the US created was that they then turned their backs on helping those who they promised help to, to rebuild those countries free of their incumbant dictator. That then let many different factions take over and fight amongst themselves and ultimately against the West thus creating the bigger problem we now see.
At the moment, all we can hope for it that his buddy Putin has a word with both sides to cool things down, and will probably promise to put Trump back in for another 4 years in return.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The US invaded Iraq on the back of lies -and thousands lost their lives on the back of those lies including many British people. You cannot justify actions on the back of “alternative scenarios” or “maybes”.

Ever since the the invasion of Iraq and the actions against other Middle East countries with have seen in the UK the rise of Terrorist activities from Islamic Fundamentlists have we not ?

The invasion of Iraq helped ensure ISIS become the beast that continues to kill and carry out Terrorist attacks as we speak - forgot Alternate scenarios , this is fact and real life - and more will continue to be targeted because of the recent actions

You would have thought a lesson was learned after the Iraq invasion - it appears not.

And yes Iran has no nuclear weapons - zero , no ability to launch a nuclear attack.

Maybe the US should concentrate on nations that do have a nuclear threat and carry out atrocities almost daily.
		
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You are ignoring the rise of Islamic fundamentalists in these countries, they dont need an excuse to push the limits and use any means including terrorism to perpetrate their desire for a world order based on their extreme religious beliefs.  Do you think if there had not been any invasions these despots would be sitting in their countries burning flags , I think not.  These people and their World wide web of terrorism are dangerous and will do what they can to destabilise the morale and economies of those they despise.   Make no mistake, letting them believe we are weak is no way to defend our people.


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## gmc40 (Jan 4, 2020)

Not sure if this has been posted?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212975935403810816


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## hovis (Jan 5, 2020)

I find it funny that people who spend their day on a golf forum genuinely think they know better than the US government on World stability and Middle Eastern affairs. delusional!!


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## gmc40 (Jan 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			I find it funny that people who spend their day on a golf forum genuinely think they know better than the US government on World stability and Middle Eastern affairs. delusional!!
		
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Under previous governments I’d agree; however this is administration an exceptional case. Still waiting for details of the “imminent threat”.

This killing is an all too convenient distraction given the developments in the impeachment case earlier this week.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I agree in part but I just don't know about the nuclear weapons bit. I thought there was a report years ago that they had everything apart from the enriched uranium. They have, or had, the initiators and triggers. Not sure about the delivery systems.

Imagine the damage to the world's economies if just one nuclear weapon was detonated in the Saudi oil fields.
		
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During the last inspection there were no delivery system or triggers but the issue is on the levels of uranium deposits they have being above the allowed limit of the treaty - which I guess became invalid the minute the US walked away from the treaty. 

Trump once again issuing further threats to them in regards 52 further targets - clear pointing towards the 1979 incident 

This all seems very parallel to Bush JR and the US trying to bully people and then being surprised when the snake bites back


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			I find it funny that people who spend their day on a golf forum genuinely think they know better than the US government on World stability and Middle Eastern affairs. delusional!!
		
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That logic can be applied to 99% of the subjects on here to 99% of the posters.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2020)

To be fair here is the point of a forum not to discuss and debate? We don't need to have insider knowledge on every subject, it's about opinions. This is a pretty major issue, to suggest it should not be covered because no one here was at a Pentagon briefing seems a little excessive. 

I don't know what this guy was up to, clearly not a nice man, but I don't trust Trump or his team. People questioning what they have done, on their own with no discussion with other nations, is essential imo.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair here is the point of a forum not to discuss and debate? We don't need to have insider knowledge on every subject, it's about opinions. This is a pretty major issue, to suggest it should not be covered because no one here was at a Pentagon briefing seems a little excessive.

I don't know what this guy was up to, clearly not a nice man, but I don't trust Trump or his team. People questioning what they have done, on their own with no discussion with other nations, is essential imo.
		
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A very valid point LT, "on their own with no discussion with other nations..." Just who is the rogue nation here, or is it both of them? 

And then there's the global interdependencies. "You want a trade deal Boris, you put troops on the ground." Or US support for the Kurds who have been fighting in Syria ends on the back of Turkey's permission to stage out of there into northern Iran.

There's a number of scenarios that sees an escalation beyond a USA 'v' Iran conflict, none of which make for a settled night's sleep.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 5, 2020)

Iinteresting quote from 2011 !!

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/...est-gamble-yet/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That logic can be applied to 99% of the subjects on here to 99% of the posters.
		
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I hope you include yourself in that 99%

People have opinions and a forum is a good place to discuss them, if anyone finds it offensive then there is a door available.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I hope you include yourself in that 99%

People have opinions and a forum is a good place to discuss them, if anyone finds it offensive then there is a door available.
		
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I’m definitely one of the 99%.
Unlike yourself, I’ve not tried to deny a poster from having an opinion.
See posts #502 & 506


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## drdel (Jan 5, 2020)

IMO we need to recognise that the 'fundamentalists' have a different set of beliefs. They do not value the life of those (infidels) in the west and consequently you have a problem when trying to use 'western' logic of tolerance and the need for peaceful co-existence. There is no desire to co-exist they believe they have the true, fundamental and dominant belief.

Until we find a way of achieving co-existence these tensions will sometimes boil over and the risk that it will not easily be contained always exists. A pacifist stance will not work as the fundamentalists will use the time (see Obama 'do nothing policy) to continue unhindered in their struggle for dominance in the absence of any containment. However distasteful we may find military action the 'western' cultures have no choice but the respond and show strength of purpose otherwise we just capitulate - we've (UK-USA) known this for at least 30 years.

The actions in the region have been building for some years and they have become more and more emboldened and the likelihood is that a more serious terrorist incursion was a high probability in comparison to the relatively local events of recent months. 

We in the west are not in control of the actions planned against us and regretfully when when pushed the only answer may be to push back.


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## hovis (Jan 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair here is the point of a forum not to discuss and debate? We don't need to have insider knowledge on every subject, it's about opinions. This is a pretty major issue, to suggest it should not be covered because no one here was at a Pentagon briefing seems a little excessive.

.
		
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pauldj42 said:



			I’m definitely one of the 99%.
Unlike yourself, I’ve not tried to deny a poster from having an opinion.
See posts #502 & 506

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not trying to stop people having an opinion at all.  it's when some people are stating their opinion as a fact when they got their information from Google or the news.   nothing wrong with saying "I think trump had made a mistake" but to say he has made a mistake when they know Jack about the drone strike is stupid.  for all we know he was on his way to collect a nuclear trigger.  People would soon be  slating trump if he had that Intel and didn't nothing with it


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## robinthehood (Jan 5, 2020)

Boris is too busy sunbathing to give a toss.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			not trying to stop people having an opinion at all.  it's when some people are stating their opinion as a fact when they got their information from Google or the news.   nothing wrong with saying "I think trump had made a mistake" but to say he has made a mistake when they know Jack about the drone strike is stupid.  for all we know he was on his way to collect a nuclear trigger.  People would soon be  slating trump if he had that Intel and didn't nothing with it
		
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You’re reading their opinion as fact, why not just dismiss it as an opinion or ask the poster to clarify, have a read of your post #502 and see how that post can be read in different ways.


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## drdel (Jan 5, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Boris is too busy sunbathing to give a toss.
		
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We don't rely on carrier pigeons or smoke signals anymore - him being in London will have zero impact on the Government/NATO/UN decision making, IMO.


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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re reading their opinion as fact, why not just dismiss it as an opinion or ask the poster to clarify, have a read of your post #502 and see how that post can be read in different ways.

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the person you are defending though paul is the worste culprit for not allowing anyone else to have an opionion, no matter what te subject


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the person you are defending though paul is the worste culprit for not allowing anyone else to have an opionion, no matter what te subject
		
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And you are just as guilty making an assumption to suggest I’m defending someone!
Hovis, post #502, didn’t direct his post at anyone, I then thought it was funny and ironic that SR came along and got a bit personal with me and posting what he did after “liking” Hovis’s post and denying LP’s right to an opinion in post #506.
This whole forum works on opinions, whether formed or informed.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This whole forum works on opinions, whether formed or informed.
		
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Ah, but some opinions are more improtant than others opinion
You should know by now there's a certain bunch who view this forum as their own domain and plaything.


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## robinthehood (Jan 5, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Ah, but some opinions are more improtant than others opinion
You should know by now there's a certain bunch who view this forum as their own domain and plaything. 

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Never has a truer word been spoken


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m definitely one of the 99%.
Unlike yourself, I’ve not tried to deny a poster from having an opinion.
See posts #502 & 506

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Unbelievable comment.  I merely stated my opinion in post #506 and fail to see any logic in your above comment, how on earth can I deny anyone from having an opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the person you are defending though paul is the worste culprit for not allowing anyone else to have an opionion, no matter what te subject
		
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How on earth can anyone stop another poster from stating an opinion?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2020)

Seemingly Lockheed shares went up 2% the day before the attack.
If true, that is surely within the criminal law area.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the person you are defending though paul is the worste culprit for not allowing anyone else to have an opionion, no matter what te subject
		
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hovis said:



			I find it funny that people who spend their day on a golf forum genuinely think they know better than the US government on World stability and Middle Eastern affairs. delusional!!
		
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Maybe some people should actually have an opinion on the thread subject as opposed to posting snide comments about posters

It’s a forum - people will post an opinion about something - either agree or disagree or post your own opinion , as opposed to posting about posters.


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## hovis (Jan 5, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe some people should actually have an opinion on the thread subject as opposed to posting snide comments about posters

It’s a forum - people will post an opinion about something - either agree or disagree or post your own opinion , as opposed to posting about posters.
		
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God it must be so tiring being you

wasn't a snide comment. your just assuming based on your reputation


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213412757107888128
Significant and shows the whole feeling within the cojntry when you go through the thread.

Iran will retaliate of that there is no doubt but it’s highly possible it won’t be direct and will target US allies - including the UK , anyone going to Dubai etc going to have to be careful. The US are already putting further troops into the area.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2020)

An unusual turn of events? Iraq Parliament votes in favour of asking all foreign soldiers to leave. Iraq, to a large extent, doesn’t have a viable army/air force, and has never really got with Iran yet wants the US out.

Its too complicated for me.


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## drdel (Jan 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			An unusual turn of events? Iraq Parliament votes in favour of asking *all foreign* soldiers to leave. Iraq, to a large extent, doesn’t have a viable army/air force, and has never really got with Iran yet wants the US out.

Its too complicated for me.
		
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Be interesting to know how they define "all" !


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			An unusual turn of events? Iraq Parliament votes in favour of asking all foreign soldiers to leave. Iraq, to a large extent, doesn’t have a viable army/air force, and has never really got with Iran yet wants the US out.

Its too complicated for me.
		
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a lot of the foreign military are supposed to there for “training and advisory” purposes but it certainly shows what they thing - also believe I heard they are putting a formal complaint to the UN for the action on their soil. Also part of the vote was removing the allowing of the use of the air and sea space for foreign military.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

Before the overthrow of Hussein and  the rise of Erdogan, Iraq and Turkey were two middle eastern nations that were NOT Islamic theocracies.  

Now Iraq is a disaster and Turkey is NATO's only dictatorship.  A bunch of Saudis knocked down our World Trade Center, bringing on the TSA and making air travel horrific.

The UK had a huge presence in the middle east for many years, and during that time, we never gave the middle east a thought.  

I had barely heard of Iraq,

and all that I knew about Turkey was that old novelty song, _Istanbul, Not Constantinople_, and that a portion of the tobacco in my Camel cigarettes (when I used to smoke) was Turkish.

What can I do to help you get your empire back?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			It happened in December of 1941.

It took catastrophe in the Pacific to finally get us to help you (and the USSR) in Europe.
Because of their treaty with Japan, Germany and Italy had to reluctantly declare war on us... and then we were in.
Better late than never, i guess.
		
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Was in Hawaii in October last year, Laid a wreath at Arizona’s Anchor. Very moving day it was as well.


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## Wolf (Jan 5, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213412757107888128
Significant and shows the whole feeling within the cojntry when you go through the thread.

Iran will retaliate of that there is no doubt but it’s highly possible it won’t be direct and will target US allies - including the UK , anyone going to Dubai etc going to have to be careful. The US are already putting further troops into the area.
		
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Out of interest what feelings in what country. When I went through that whole thread it was just a few Americans having petty comments at each other about trump and others supporting the move. 

The only thing I can find to back up your general statement of the feeling in the whole country is a single picture of the sheer number of mourners in the streets. But there is no Iranian responses in that thread to corroborate what you say the clear feeling is. Im nit digging you out here just looking for the clarity based on what's actually in that thread when i click your link.


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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Before the overthrow of Hussein and  the rise of Erdogan, Iraq and Turkey were two middle eastern nations that were NOT Islamic theocracies. 

Now Iraq is a disaster and Turkey is NATO's only dictatorship.  A bunch of Saudis knocked down our World Trade Center, bringing on the TSA and making air travel horrific.

The UK had a huge presence in the middle east for many years, *and during that time, we never gave the middle east a thought*. 

I had barely heard of Iraq,

and all that I knew about Turkey was that old novelty song, _Istanbul, Not Constantinople_, and that a portion of the tobacco in my Camel cigarettes (when I used to smoke) was Turkish.

What can I do to help you get your empire back?
		
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Oil


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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			God it must be so tiring being you

wasn't a snide comment. your just assuming based on your reputation
		
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not liking a taste of his own medicine


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213518211813126144
This appeared on my timeline and the man speaks very well. Lots of replies about these actions will create the immigrants that then risk their lives to come to the UK , immigrants created by the wars in Iraq and Syria.

Trump on Twitter is boasting about the amount they have spent on the military’s arms and that they will send stuff to them - it seems a very dangerous game to be playing as and Benn says - innocent people are going to be affected by this just as they were in the Iraq War. I really hope we stay out of this and it will be interesting to see if Iran do go to the UN as well Iraq have done


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

Just to clear up any possible misunderstanding beforehand, the word "caravan" does not refer to a mobile home in the United States.

I first heard it used that way watching the Irish film, _The Commitments_, in 1991 or2.  But I digress.

A little while ago, I had to duck out to run a quick errand.  On the streets, I ran into a caravan of pickup trucks, all festooned with American flags and huge Donal Trump signs, messing up traffic and beeping their horns.

I started out politely giving them a thumbs down sign. They responded with middle fingers.  I responded by maneuvering my steering wheel with my knee and giving them two-handed middle fingers.  Since everybody drives around with guns here in America, it got no further than that.  Somebody shouted out "Communist" at me but Communists aren't what bother me.  Republicans are. If they had called me "Republican, " then I may have started shooting.  I hope not, but who knows?  There's always a first time.

Anyway, that's where we are now in the "land of the free and home of the brave."

Same thing there? Except for the guns, of course.  Although it wasn't that long ago when bakery trucks in Belfast all had tail gunners.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*Do you of know what this guy may have been planning against the USA and its allies, do you know what threat he was to peace and stability in the World?*  We know nothing  about it on this forum and as such its best to not guess about the whys or wherefors that lead to this act. It just could be that if he was alive many peoples friends and colleagues could have lost their lives.
		
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You've got this the wrong way around!

It should be (have been in this case) US's responsibility to reveal how he was actively 'threatening peace and stability in the World'!

Not just an irresponsible, two-faced action by Trump to bolster his re-election prospects.

As it, I believe it's Trump that is the greatest threat to 'peace and stability in the World. Though I wouldn't advocate any attempt to assassinate him!


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			As it, I believe it's Trump that is the greatest threat to 'peace and stability in the World. Though *I wouldn't advocate any attempt to assassinate him!*

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Would that I only had such self-restraint.


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## drdel (Jan 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You've got this the wrong way around!

It should be (have been in this case) US's *responsibility to reveal how he was actively *'threatening peace and stability in the World'!

Not just an irresponsible, two-faced action by Trump to bolster his re-election prospects.

As it, I believe it's Trump that is the greatest threat to 'peace and stability in the World. Though I wouldn't advocate any attempt to assassinate him!
		
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You do realise that this person was the chief of Iran's Quds Force, an elite clandestine paramilitary task force created with the sole purpose of developing and executing acts of terrorism anywhere he considered. Thus, since his purpose was to undertake illegal incursions, that alone justifies his targeting and elimination.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			You do realise that this person was the chief of Iran's Quds Force a clandestine paramilitary force created with the sole purpose of developing and executing acts of terrorism anywhere he considered. Thu,s since his purpose was to undertake illegal incursions, that alone justifies his targeting and elimination.
		
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Like certain parts our MI6/SAS etc then! Or any of several US agencies!

Btw. Yes I did!

Isn't it a joy to be on 'the side of right' and know that everything we do is true and justified!

Oh hang on a bit! Dr David Kelly was right about Iraq's WMDs, but Blair 'eliminated' him and the Dodgy Dossier held sway!


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## drdel (Jan 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Like certain parts our MI6/SAS etc then! Or any of several US agencies!

Btw. *Yes I did!*

Isn't it a joy to be on 'the side of right' and know that everything we do is true and justified!

Oh hang on a bit! Dr David Kelly was right about Iraq's WMDs, but Blair 'eliminated' him and the Dodgy Dossier held sway!
		
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And yet you wish to blame Trump etc. and in that case your deflections and logic don't hold water IMO.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

If somebody wishes to blame Trump for the flood that allegedly forced Noah to build an ark, I wouldn't be quick to discredit the idea.

The man is a despicable cretin by any reasonable standard.  If he's guilty of 1/10th of that for which he's blamed, and the true figure is very much greater than that, 
he unworthy of sharing the planet's oxygen supply. And he is.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51001167

well that’s not good news 

I see Boris has asked for both side it de escalate and asked Iraq for UK troops to stay in - I hope that helps and that Iraq keeps up relations with us


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You've got this the wrong way around!

It should be (have been in this case) US's responsibility to reveal how he was actively 'threatening peace and stability in the World'!

Not just an irresponsible, two-faced action by Trump to bolster his re-election prospects.

As it, I believe it's Trump that is the greatest threat to 'peace and stability in the World. Though I wouldn't advocate any attempt to assassinate him!
		
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I can only repeat what I said in that post, you and I are not privy to the military intelligence and as such can only guess at why this act was perpetrated.  You are allowing your prejudicial feelings against Trump to cloud your  view.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Would that I only had such self-restraint.
		
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I was surprised he survived to reach inauguration.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			And yet you wish to blame Trump etc. and in that case your deflections and logic don't hold water IMO.
		
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Ye Olde Boomer said:



			If somebody wishes to blame Trump for the flood that allegedly forced Noah to build an ark, I wouldn't be quick to discredit the idea.

The man is a despicable cretin by any reasonable standard.  If he's guilty of 1/10th of that for which he's blamed, and the true figure is very much greater than that,
he unworthy of sharing the planet's oxygen supply. And he is.
		
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Far better put than I could have - from someone 'closer to the source'!

Though I've certainly seen some 'scuttle-butt', since deleted from t'internet about some of his contcts - at least one of which I've met and wouldn't trust an inch!


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only repeat what I said in that post, you and I are not privy to the military intelligence and as such can only guess at why this act was perpetrated...
		
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I agree. That's precisely why it's up to USA to provide real hard evidence of crimes against humanity before deciding to simply murder 'opponents'!


SocketRocket said:



			...You are allowing your prejudicial feelings against Trump to cloud your  view.
		
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Wrong! My view would be the same had it been Clinton (either of them), Obama, Bush or Reagan!

The fact that I detest Trump makes no difference to my view on this murder!


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## gmc40 (Jan 6, 2020)

It’s important to remember that Trump pulled out of the Iran deal not because it was a bad deal but because it was Obama’s deal. The man doesn’t do anything unless it benefits himself but unfortunately some people continue to be wilfully ignorant on this topic. 

It’s a convenient distraction and the start of his 2020 campaign.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2020)

I’m not sure there is any other political leader who plays out things via twitter - it’s alarming at times some of the stuff he posts


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## sussexhacker (Jan 6, 2020)

All this twitter stuff is just to satisfy his huge ego about how powerful he is and how wise he is 

The guys a full blown psychopath trying to start a war over Twitter


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2020)

Iranians now putting a bounty on Trump's head. Giving him a touch of his own medicine.
I wonder if this will affect gun laws in America now.


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## User62651 (Jan 6, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213518211813126144
This appeared on my timeline and the man speaks very well. Lots of replies about these actions will create the immigrants that then risk their lives to come to the UK , immigrants created by the wars in Iraq and Syria.

Trump on Twitter is boasting about the amount they have spent on the military’s arms and that they will send stuff to them - it seems a very dangerous game to be playing as and Benn says - innocent people are going to be affected by this just as they were in the Iraq War. I really hope we stay out of this and it will be interesting to see if Iran do go to the UN as well Iraq have done
		
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Wise words from Benn, was a good parliamentarian if nothing else. Very wealthy man for a Commie too. Interesting to see a young(er) engrossed JCorbyn sitting behind!
UK should not be following US blindly into any further middle east war but with TrumpLite in No.10 hanging on a US trade deal to make something of his Brexit policy I expect we will. US should extradite for questioning that woman who allegedly killed the young motorcyclist at the airbase and treat the UK with respect, that response alone shows how the US really values the 'special relationship'. Trump needs removed from office asap. 
However Iran have always been sabre rattlers and come out with a lot of public threats and flag burning protests etc over the years but you wonder what really goes on where the power lies in that country so whether this time will be any different remains to be seen. If US wanted that general taken out there are a multitude of stealthy sneaky ways to do it and deny responsibility, a drone attack in a sovereign country like Iraq clearly was intended to be seen and heard around the world by Washington for whatever reason. jUst hope Trump is just a mouthpiece and the real US power is removed from him. 
Poor Nazanin stands no chance of getting out, her hunger strike will go unnoticed now.


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## drdel (Jan 6, 2020)

I have a job understanding the 'outrage'. This head of a state sponsored paramilitary organisation has been planing and conducting illegal out-of-country clandestine terrorist operations against western targets for many many years; recently carrying out 14 known attacks. For example, when Bin Laden was taken out there was no similar psuedo outrage. The roles of these two men were pretty much identical and the current threat posed is just as great. Is it because one 'looked' like a rogue terrorist while the other appears dressed as an honourable general?

Perhaps the reaction is more against Trump the person than the (IMO) justified action against a terrorist commander.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I have a job understanding the 'outrage'. This head of a state sponsored paramilitary organisation has been planing and conducting illegal out-of-country clandestine terrorist operations against western targets for many many years; recently carrying out 14 known attacks. For example, when Bin Laden was taken out there was no similar psuedo outrage. The roles of these two men were pretty much identical and the current threat posed is just as great. Is it because one 'looked' like a rogue terrorist while the other appears dressed as an honourable general?

Perhaps the reaction is more against Trump the person than the (IMO) justified action against a terrorist commander.
		
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Maybe Iran views him differently to you and I?
Qassim Soleimani, was an Iranian major general in the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and, from 1998 until his death, commander of its Quds Force, a division primarily responsible for extraterritorial military and clandestine operations.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I have a job understanding the 'outrage'. This head of a state sponsored paramilitary organisation has been planing and conducting illegal out-of-country clandestine terrorist operations against western targets for many many years; recently carrying out 14 known attacks. For example, when Bin Laden was taken out there was no similar psuedo outrage. The roles of these two men were pretty much identical and the current threat posed is just as great. Is it because one 'looked' like a rogue terrorist while the other appears dressed as an honourable general?

Perhaps the reaction is more against Trump the person than the (IMO) justified action against a terrorist commander.
		
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The problem is Bin Laden was stateless, working as a rogue terrorist. The General works for a country, a nation. The US move is practically an act of war.


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## Wolf (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I have a job understanding the 'outrage'. This head of a state sponsored paramilitary organisation has been planing and conducting illegal out-of-country clandestine terrorist operations against western targets for many many years; recently carrying out 14 known attacks. For example, when Bin Laden was taken out there was no similar psuedo outrage. The roles of these two men were pretty much identical and the current threat posed is just as great. Is it because one 'looked' like a rogue terrorist while the other appears dressed as an honourable general?

Perhaps the reaction is more against Trump the person than the (IMO) justified action against a terrorist commander.
		
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Completely different scenarios with the 2 men. Bin Laden was a known terror cell leader who went on publicly released video taking responsibility for the attacks on the west for 9/11. That act alone instantly gave any act by the US in retaliation public support, understanding & desire to remove him from the earth.

With the latest strike carried out by Trump being preemptive people haven't gor the insider knowledge of why this has happened , only the knowledge things reported about the attack and the dislike of Trump so conclusions get drawn without full knowledge and based on personal opinion. What needs to happen now is US release a few facts as to why thsy felt justified in their actions to the public.


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## drdel (Jan 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The problem is Bin Laden was stateless, working as a rogue terrorist. The General works for a country, a nation. The US move is practically an act of war.
		
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I'm sure those killed and injured would respect the differences (sarcasm alert !!!). The fact that this 'General', whose actions have murdered many thousands of people, was state sponsored with access to huge resources is worse in my mind (even though making that distinction is pretty daft). Both were terrorists openly dedicated to removing western assets and people.

Are you suggesting the fact terrorists may be'state' supported means we should sit back and wait for more atrocities to unfold because we might upset their sponsoring state!


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## drdel (Jan 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Completely different scenarios with the 2 men. Bin Laden was a known terror cell leader who vent on publicly released video taking responsibility for the attacks on the west for 9/11. That act alone instantly gave any act by the US in retaliation public support, understanding & desire to remove him from the earth.

With the latest strike carried out by Trump being preemptive people haven't gor the insider knowledge of why this has happened , only the knowledge things reported about the attack and the dislike of Trump so conclusions get drawn without full knowledge and based on personal opinion. *What needs to happen now is US release a few facts as to why thsy felt justified in their actions to the public*.
		
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They have. 14 attacks in recent months, one on the US embassy; many others previously. He has been tracked as a target for years...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm sure those killed and injured would respect the differences (sarcasm alert !!!). The fact that this 'General', whose actions have murdered many thousands of people, was state sponsored with access to huge resources is worse in my mind (even though making that distinction is pretty daft). Both were terrorists openly dedicated to removing western assets and people.

Are you suggesting the fact terrorists may be'state' supported means we should sit back and wait for more atrocities to unfold because we might upset their sponsoring state!
		
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He is not seen as a terrorist anywhere but the Western World, you are questioning the outrage, if our Chief of the Defence Staff is sending the SAS on clandestine missions in foreign countries and those Countries see our soldiers as terrorists, is the CDS a legitimate target for those nations?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm sure those killed and injured would respect the differences (sarcasm alert !!!). The fact that this 'General', whose actions have murdered many thousands of people, was state sponsored with access to huge resources is worse in my mind (even though making that distinction is pretty daft). Both were terrorists openly dedicated to removing western assets and people.

Are you suggesting the fact terrorists may be'state' supported means we should sit back and wait for more atrocities to unfold because we might upset their sponsoring state!
		
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No but it is far more complicated. If you kill a general of a state then that state is clearly going to be pretty hacked off. The consequences are much greater, in a region like the Middle East, with a country such as Iran, even larger. It may be that the US had reached the end of the road, they had uncovered plans that were beyond what this man had done before and so they felt they had no option but when a nation starts assasinating senior officials from other countries you are starting off a chain of events that are very, very difficult to control. 

I also do find it disturbing that the US acted entirely on its own here, no discussions with other key nations in the area, no discussions with its allies that will inevitably be affected. Going solo is not good.


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## Wolf (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			They have. 14 attacks in recent months, one on the US embassy; many others previously. He has been tracked as a target for years...
		
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Im not condoning what the general has done in the past. What i am saying is you cannot compare a blatant terrorist to a military general representing an entire country with political backing its not that simple.  Which is why the US have to issue a statement of why this action was carried out and why they believe it was legal.


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## drdel (Jan 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No but it is far more complicated. If you kill a general of a state then that state is clearly going to be pretty hacked off. The consequences are much greater, in a region like the Middle East, with a country such as Iran, even larger. It may be that the US had reached the end of the road, they had uncovered plans that were beyond what this man had done before and so they felt they had no option but when a nation starts assasinating senior officials from other countries you are starting off a chain of events that are very, very difficult to control.

I also do find it *disturbing that the US acted entirely on its own here, no discussions with other key nations in the area, no discussions with its allies* that will inevitably be affected. Going solo is not good.
		
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The UK military etc. has advocated his demise since around 2008 - Millibrand would not agree.

Discussion take valuable time. If the ongoing surveillance saw the 'General's transport on the outer perimeter of the airport there would be a very tight window of just a few minutes to strike without the target vehicle reaching more populated parts of the airfield raising the risk of causing collateral damage and civilians harm. There's no time for tea and biscuits !!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I have a job understanding the 'outrage'. This head of a state sponsored paramilitary organisation has been planing and conducting illegal out-of-country clandestine terrorist operations against western targets for many many years; recently carrying out 14 known attacks. For example, when Bin Laden was taken out there was no similar psuedo outrage. The roles of these two men were pretty much identical and the current threat posed is just as great. Is it because one 'looked' like a rogue terrorist while the other appears dressed as an honourable general?

Perhaps the reaction is more against Trump the person than the (IMO) justified action against a terrorist commander.
		
Click to expand...

As has already been said by others - Bin Laden was a head of a terrorist organisation which was seen that way by all in the world - they wanted terror across every nation

The Iran General is an official military head in a Middle East country - he will only be seen as “terrorist” and evil etc by the Western nations - Trump etc has carried out this public attack by the head of a military 

What do you think our reaction would be if someone from Iran killed the head of the RAF who controls the drones that kill people in the Middle East ? 

Iran and I have no doubt many Middle East countries didnt see the General as a terrorist but I bet they see some of the US general terrorists When they carry out attacks within Iran , Iraq etc 

The difference will be what goes through UN protocols etc - Iran believe this is an act of war because they believe it will be an illegal action outside any UN resolutions- just the same if Iran carries out attacks. 

The US needs to come out with the justification for the attack beyond - he is a nasty man , if they can show to the UN etc the attacks he carried out and what he was planning etc then it’s hard for Iran to argue against - if they can’t and it’s just a case of “ using the opportunity to get rid of someone “ then it’s close to starting a war


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## drdel (Jan 6, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As has already been said by others - Bin Laden was a head of a terrorist organisation which was seen that way by all in the world - they wanted terror across every nation

The Iran General is an official military head in a Middle East country - he will only be seen as “terrorist” and evil etc by the Western nations - Trump etc has carried out this public attack by the head of a military

What do you think our reaction would be if someone from Iran killed the head of the RAF who controls the drones that kill people in the Middle East ?

Iran and I have no doubt many Middle East countries didnt see the General as a terrorist but I bet they see some of the US general terrorists When they carry out attacks within Iran , Iraq etc

The difference will be what goes through UN protocols etc - Iran believe this is an act of war because they believe it will be an illegal action outside any UN resolutions- just the same if Iran carries out attacks.

*The US needs to come out with the justification for the attack beyond* - he is a nasty man , if they can show to the UN etc the attacks he carried out and what he was planning etc then it’s hard for Iran to argue against - if they can’t and it’s just a case of “ using the opportunity to get rid of someone “ then it’s close to starting a war
		
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Military, security and defence is not the Olympic games: the 'media' has no right to know despite their self righteous belief and the 'public' do not need to know!

This is serious stuff and it *IS* taken very seriously by senior, intelligent military staff: the USA, UK and other allied embedded staff at the Pentagon, Washington etc will have examined the situation and potential scenarios. It is silly and just not possible or wise to publish sensitive information most probably derived from covert intelligence reports or 'insiders'; it puts those sources in grave danger, jeopardises future info and informs the opposition how you know what you know. 

Do you think other nations feel compelled to tell the world and justify actions just to fulfill a mistaken media/public 'right'. Does China, N Korea, Israel, Iraq or Iran etc publishes information about its past, present military and defence action?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2020)

Quite a number of folks across the pond asking for a bit of background to the imperative driving this assassination - as it is not easy to see how USA security benefits from it - indeed it increases the risk to US security in a number of areas and diverts resources from other critical security activity.  

Even if it is just the Congress Subcommittee on National Security - the members of that committee (esp Dems) then being able to reassure the US public that an attack was imminent without revealing or compromising sensitive security matters or individuals.


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Military, security and defence is not the Olympic games: the 'media' has no right to know despite their self righteous belief and the 'public' do not need to know!

This is serious stuff and it *IS* taken very seriously by senior, intelligent military staff: the USA, UK and other allied embedded staff at the Pentagon, Washington etc will have examined the situation and potential scenarios. It is silly and just not possible or wise to publish sensitive information most probably derived from covert intelligence reports or 'insiders'; it puts those sources in grave danger, jeopardises future info and informs the opposition how you know what you know.

Do you think other nations feel compelled to tell the world and justify actions just to fulfill a mistaken media/public 'right'. Does China, N Korea, Israel, Iraq or Iran etc publishes information about its past, present military and defence action?
		
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All very valid but why not, if the guy was that bad, arrange a car 'accident.' Why publically attack a recognised sovereign state - its an act of war. Yes, like N Korea et al, not a nice regime but still seen by the UN and many of its neighbours as a country in its own right?

Drone strike on a Talibhan warlord or ISIS I can understand but, as dispicable as the guy and the regime was/are, it just doesn't sit well to do it so publically.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Military, security and defence is not the Olympic games: the 'media' has no right to know despite their self righteous belief and the 'public' do not need to know!

This is serious stuff and it *IS* taken very seriously by senior, intelligent military staff: the USA, UK and other allied embedded staff at the Pentagon, Washington etc will have examined the situation and potential scenarios. It is silly and just not possible or wise to publish sensitive information most probably derived from covert intelligence reports or 'insiders'; it puts those sources in grave danger, jeopardises future info and informs the opposition how you know what you know.

Do you think other nations feel compelled to tell the world and justify actions just to fulfill a mistaken media/public 'right'. Does China, N Korea, Israel, Iraq or Iran etc publishes information about its past, present military and defence action?
		
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Absolute waffle, we and the USA citizens live in a Democracy, our Governments are accountable, nobody is asking for the weeds and all, just more than is currently being released.
What you are suggesting is any Country can launch an attack in a third party Country and simply state the target is a terrorist in their opinion.
Would we of been justified taking out the Russian in charge of the Salisbury attack?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Military, security and defence is not the Olympic games: the 'media' has no right to know despite their self righteous belief and the 'public' do not need to know!

This is serious stuff and it *IS* taken very seriously by senior, intelligent military staff: the USA, UK and other allied embedded staff at the Pentagon, Washington etc will have examined the situation and potential scenarios. It is silly and just not possible or wise to publish sensitive information most probably derived from covert intelligence reports or 'insiders'; it puts those sources in grave danger, jeopardises future info and informs the opposition how you know what you know.

Do you think other nations feel compelled to tell the world and justify actions just to fulfill a mistaken media/public 'right'. Does China, N Korea, Israel, Iraq or Iran etc publishes information about its past, present military and defence action?
		
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This is military action in a foreign country against a country not currently at War with the US - it will have to be justified to the UN if Iran do go to the UN and also Iraq because it was carried out on their soil without their knowledge. 

This wasn’t military action against the Leader of ISIS for example 

If China carried out military action in a foreign country without authority then yes it would need to disclose why , same with any country. 

There are many ways to release information on the “whys” without having to disclose sensitive information. 

It seems even Congress are asking , no doubt NATO will ask , China will ask -these nations will ask why the US have just killed an Iranian General and on what authority they did so.


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## Wolf (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Military, security and defence is not the Olympic games: the 'media' has no right to know despite their self righteous belief and the 'public' do not need to know!

This is serious stuff and it *IS* taken very seriously by senior, intelligent military staff: the USA, UK and other allied embedded staff at the Pentagon, Washington etc will have examined the situation and potential scenarios. It is silly and just not possible or wise to publish sensitive information most probably derived from covert intelligence reports or 'insiders'; it puts those sources in grave danger, jeopardises future info and informs the opposition how you know what you know.

Do you think other nations feel compelled to tell the world and justify actions just to fulfill a mistaken media/public 'right'. Does China, N Korea, Israel, Iraq or Iran etc publishes information about its past, present military and defence action?
		
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You're right Military action is not the Olympic games, servicemen & women lose their lives based on the decisions of people in suits working in safe warm environments. Those decision makers have a responsibility to their nations people to justify the reasons they openly launch an attack in a foreign nation, because the come backs on those peoole are such they could face attack, they could be the ones in future fighting the subsequent conflicts putting their lives on the line.

Nobody needs to know the finite details of the military intelligence gathered, but they do need a just cause reason to support their leaders and understand what consequences they may face. Likewise the leaders have a legal responsibility to the UN to justify the actions otherwise it can be interpreted as an act of war.

If they wanted this done covertly there are many options available that wouldn't cause this open questioning that have to be answered.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			The UK military etc. has advocated his demise since around 2008 - Millibrand would not agree.
		
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What is overlooked is that although distasteful in the extreme, he did work with the US in the fight against ISIS, in that both parties agreed to ignore certain things in the "joint action".
I don't know the why's or wherefores, but America turning on some unpleasant person it previously chose to work with isn't new.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			All very valid but why not, if the guy was that bad, arrange a car 'accident.' Why publically attack a recognised sovereign state - its an act of war. Yes, like N Korea et al, not a nice regime but still seen by the UN and many of its neighbours as a country in its own right?

Drone strike on a Talibhan warlord or ISIS I can understand but, as dispicable as the guy and the regime was/are, it just doesn't sit well to do it so publically.
		
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And indeed - as Richard Haass comments - the US knows that Kim Jong-un and President Assad are murderous thugs that also pose a threat to US security - but the US haven't taken either of _them _out.  Why this guy, in this manner, and now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			What is overlooked is that although distasteful in the extreme, he did work with the US in the fight against ISIS, in that both parties agreed to ignore certain things in the "joint action".
I don't know the why's or wherefores, but *America turning on some unpleasant person it previously chose to work with isn't new*.
		
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or abandoning them - see the Syrian Kurds...


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And indeed - as Richard Haass comments - the US knows that Kim Jong-un and President Assad are murderous thugs that also pose a threat to US security - but the US haven't taken either of _them _out.  Why this guy, in this manner, and now.
		
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Jong-Un is backed/allied by China, and Assad is backed/allied to Russia. Attacking either would see a massive war, and with a greater potential to go global.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			All very valid but why not, if the guy was that bad, arrange a car 'accident.' Why publically attack a recognised sovereign state - its an act of war. Yes, like N Korea et al, not a nice regime but still seen by the UN and many of its neighbours as a country in its own right?

Drone strike on a Talibhan warlord or ISIS I can understand but, as dispicable as the guy and the regime was/are, it just doesn't sit well to do it so publically.
		
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Arrange a  car accident like the one that involved a couple of unknown spies and some deadly poison, then you can deny you had anything to do with it.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...Why this guy, in this manner, and now.
		
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Impeachment and re-election. Pure and simple!


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## gmc40 (Jan 6, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Impeachment and re-election. Pure and simple!
		
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Exactly, nothing more and nothing less


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Impeachment and re-election. Pure and simple!
		
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...and to bolster his popularity amongst his core constituency he threatens to destroy Iranian Cultural sites on the UNESCO World Heritage list and so protected under the Geneva Convention - and that would potentially make him a war criminal? - wouldn't he just love that - unfortunately I think he would because he would.

_"They’re allowed to kill our people. They’re allowed to torture and maim our people. They’re allowed to use roadside bombs and blow up our people. And we’re not allowed to touch their cultural site? It doesn’t work that way." _


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## drdel (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and to bolster his popularity amongst his core constituency he threatens to destroy Iranian Cultural sites on the UNESCO World Heritage list and so protected under the Geneva Convention - and that would potentially make him a war criminal? - wouldn't he just love that - unfortunately I think he would because he would.

_"They’re allowed to kill our people. They’re allowed to torture and maim our people. They’re allowed to use roadside bombs and blow up our people. And we’re not allowed to touch their cultural site? It doesn’t work that way." _

Click to expand...

The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance.  This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance.  This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.
		
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Just because my dog used to crap on the pavement (then I bagged it) doesn't mean that I must crap there as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Just because my dog used to crap on the pavement (then I bagged it) doesn't mean that I must crap there as well.
		
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Indeed - I thought it was such as the Taliban and ISIS who were so barbaric and ideological that destruction of Cultural Sites simply went with the territory and that the 'civilised' world didn't do that sort of thing.  Just didn't - no matter what.


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## Wolf (Jan 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance.  This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.
		
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I maybe wrong but Im sorry but that just reads like someone thats only ever seen these atrocious actions through a newspaper and sitting at home watching the news. Perhaps im wrong with that assessment.

The "rules" of the Geneva convention & JSA always apply regardless of what other nations do. Because if they don't then we become the terrorist and our actions must be tried and dealt with accordingly by the courts.

Yes lives have been lost but that does not mean anyone can go above the law. Nobody is saying they should have gone James Bond style but there are still a whole host of ways this kind of action can be done covertly and in a deniable manner.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance.  This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.
		
Click to expand...

Wow! As well as a superb economist, an intelligence analyst/operative. I think you've taken some comments too literally. The US funds, and has funded, a number of indigenous groups in various countries in the fight against terror and drugs. Not James Bond-esqe or silly movie plots but honest to goodness boots on the ground supported by 'advisors' from the US.... but you knew that didn't you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-51029181

well let’s hope it’s not the start of things getting worse 🤞

And let’s pray that the airline jet thats has gone down has nothing to do with it all


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## DaveR (Jan 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-51029181

well let’s hope it’s not the start of things getting worse 🤞

And let’s pray that the airline jet thats has gone down has nothing to do with it all
		
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Things will certainly get worse before they get better but there is nothing to suggest at this stage that the plane crash is linked. Reports are saying it was engine failure.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2020)

DaveR said:



			Things will certainly get worse before they get better but there is nothing to suggest at this stage that the plane crash is linked. Reports are saying it was *engine failure*.
		
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Yep! That can happen when an engine is hit by a missile! 

But almost certainly a coincidence. As is the fact that the plane was from another of Trump's 'trouble spots'.


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## DaveR (Jan 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Yep! That can happen when an engine is hit by a missile! 

But almost certainly a coincidence. As is the fact that the plane was from another of Trump's 'trouble spots'.
		
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OK if you say so but seeing as there were 82 Iranians on the plane I'm happy to believe it was an accident at this stage until there is evidence to suggest otherwise.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I maybe wrong but Im sorry but that just reads (1a) *like someone thats only ever seen these atrocious* actions through a newspaper and sitting at home watching the news. (1b)*Perhaps im wrong with that assessment.*

The "rules" of the (2) *Geneva convention & JSA always apply regardless *of what other nations do. Because if they don't then we become the terrorist and our actions must be tried and dealt with accordingly by the courts.

Yes lives have been lost but that does not mean anyone can go above the law.(3) *Nobody is saying *they should have gone James Bond style but there are still a whole host of ways this kind of action can be done covertly and in a *deniable* manner.
		
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I must respond but without details - sorry to other posters.
Do I assume by your first comment you are claiming operation military experience/superiority?
1. You are indeed very, very wrong on a level way above your pay-grade I'd bet - if you want to be better informed strategically I'd suggest public commentary by RUSI, Janes, and SMI type conferences etc might be a good non-sensitive start.
2. The USA, UK and NATO will always closely follow and go to great lengths to follow 'Geneva' and I never suggested otherwise I merely pointed out that the asymmetric nature faced provides an advantage to the aggressor who does not feel the need to conform the same 'rules of engagement'.
3. Wrong a few posts early it was suggested a car accident could be arranged and covert operations would give the deniable opportunity you desire. Deniability was clearly not the objective and was the safest and most effective action that avoided risk to service personnel and potentially inhumane outcome.

Hobbit, said
"Wow! As well as a (1) *superb *economist, an intelligence* (2) analyst*/operative. I think you've taken some comments too literally. The US funds, and has funded, a number of indigenous groups in various countries in the fight against terror and drugs. Not James Bond-esqe or silly movie plots but honest to (3a) *goodness boots on the ground* supported by 'advisors' from the US.... (3b) *but you knew that didn't you.* "

1 Thanks for the insult, I thought we played the ball not the person - expertise recognised internationally.
2. Yep 4 decades of simulation and modelling building originating with military equipment with years as HoD of relevant organisation.
3. (a) Technology and power projection capability avoids foolish endangerment of other lives when indiscriminate use of mines, RPG's in civilian vehicles are the chosen opposition.
3. (b) As per my reply to Wolf  in 1 above!

OK. so as I always state I have just given my opinions and now added a rebuttal which may be unpopular/arrogant; so be it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2020)

I'm looking forward to seeing Trump's Cunning Plan come to fruition.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, US Court removes the blocker that John Bolton was holding up as preventing him from testifying in the Impeachment process - and also that which Mulvaney and Pompeo were hiding behind.  So if Bolton is subpoenaed to testify he has said he will.  Now that would be interesting.  What can Trump do to divert attention from _that_?


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## Wolf (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			I must respond but without details - sorry to other posters.
Do I assume by your first comment you are claiming operation military experience/superiority?
1. You are indeed very, very wrong on a level way above your pay-grade I'd bet - if you want to be better informed strategically I'd suggest public commentary by RUSI, Janes, and SMI type conferences etc might be a good non-sensitive start.
2. The USA, UK and NATO will always closely follow and go to great lengths to follow 'Geneva' and I never suggested otherwise I merely pointed out that the asymmetric nature faced it provides an advantage to the aggressor who does not feel the need to conform the same 'rules of engagement'.
3. Wrong a few posts early it was suggested a car accident could be arranged and covert operations would give the deniable opportunity you desire. Deniability was clearly not the objective and was the safest and most effective action that avoided risk to service personnel and potentially inhumane outcome.

Hobbit, said
"Wow! As well as a (1) *superb *economist, an intelligence* (2) analyst*/operative. I think you've taken some comments too literally. The US funds, and has funded, a number of indigenous groups in various countries in the fight against terror and drugs. Not James Bond-esqe or silly movie plots but honest to (3a) *goodness boots on the ground* supported by 'advisors' from the US.... (3b) *but you knew that didn't you.* "

1 Thanks for the insult, I though we played the ball not the person - expertise recognised internationally.
2. Yep 4 decades of simulation and modelling building originating with military equipment with years as HoD of relevant organisation
3. (a) Technology and power projection capability avoids foolish endangerment of other lives when indiscriminate use of mines, RPG's in civilian vehicles are the chosen opposition.
3. (b) As per my reply to Wolf  in 1 above!

OK. so as I always state I have just given my opinions and added a rebuttal  which may be unpopular/arrogant; so be it.
		
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Oh dear... I did write in my post I maybe wrong but that's how it reads and its how your posts came across.. But yes your right I spent a number of years in the military but I wasn't making this a dick waving contest however that's exactly the pathetic level you've dragged it down to by suggesting I'm wrong on a level way above my pay grade, especially as you don't have a clue what my pay grade was and what my role was strategically as you put it and its something i won't be dragged into discussing my exact role on an open Internet forum, its not the place for it. All you've done there is show arrogance and imo weakness in your ability to stand your ground with resorting to try an belittle someone without knowing a thing about them.

In past you've posted some very valid and interesting point's in other threads, but with this last post you've highlighted nothing but arrogance and an inability to conduct yourself in a manner that could better counter argue posts/comments. Nobody was playing the poster with their previous posts, but merely responding to what was written with their own views.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
2. The USA, UK and NATO will always closely follow and go to great lengths to follow 'Geneva' and I never suggested otherwise I merely pointed out that the asymmetric nature faced provides an advantage to the aggressor who does not feel the need to conform the same 'rules of engagement'.
...
		
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From a BBC article...
But the noted international legal scholar, Notre Dame Law School Prof Mary Ellen O'Connell, has this view of the legal implications:

"Pre-emptive self defence is never a legal justification for assassination. Nothing is. The relevant law is the United Nations Charter, which defines self defence as a right to respond to an actual and significant armed attack," she said.

"The use of a drone to kill Iranian Gen Qasem Soleimani in Baghdad was not in response to an armed attack on the United States. Iran has not attacked the sovereign territory of the United States," she said.

"In this case, the United States has not only committed an extrajudicial killing, it has carried out an unlawful attack within Iraq."


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			From a BBC article...
But the noted international legal scholar, Notre Dame Law School Prof Mary Ellen O'Connell, has this view of the legal implications:

"Pre-emptive self defence is never a legal justification for assassination. Nothing is. The relevant law is the United Nations Charter, which defines self defence as a right to respond to an actual and significant armed attack," she said.

"The use of a drone to kill Iranian Gen Qasem Soleimani in Baghdad was not in response to an armed attack on the United States. Iran has not attacked the sovereign territory of the United States," she said.

"In this case, the United States has not only committed an extrajudicial killing, it has carried out an unlawful attack within Iraq."
		
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Other interpretations are available. 🤔


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh dear... I did write in my post I maybe wrong but that's how it reads and its how your posts came across.. But yes your right I spent a number of years in the military but I wasn't making this a dick waving contest however that's exactly the pathetic level you've dragged it down to by suggesting I'm wrong on a level way above my pay grade, especially as you don't have a clue what my pay grade was and what my role was strategically as you put it and its something i won't be dragged into discussing my exact role on an open Internet forum, its not the place for it. All you've done there is *show arrogance* and imo weakness in your ability to stand your ground with resorting to try *an belittle someone without knowing a thing about them.*

In past you've posted some very valid and interesting point's in other threads, but with this last post you've highlighted nothing but arrogance and an inability to conduct yourself in a manner that could better counter argue posts/comments. Nobody was playing the poster with their previous posts, but merely responding to what was written with their own views.
		
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I'm sorry if I came back harsh and I did apologise that it might be seen as arrogant.   IMO, if you take the highlighted bold comments above your must admit that "belittlement" of some one you do not know is exactly what you attempted in the first paragraph of your post that I quoted when you sought to challenge my observations. Willy waving over and out.


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## Wolf (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm sorry if I came back harsh and I did apologise that it might be seen as arrogant.   IMO, if you take the highlighted bold comments above your must admit that "belittlement" of some one you do not know is exactly what you attempted in the first paragraph of your post that I quoted when you sought to challenge my observations. Willy waving over and out.
		
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No its not what i attempted at all, hence in the very sentence i said I maybe wrong but its how it reads. I challenged your observation as this is an open forum to do such things and challenge each other and open discussion, you chose to make it more personal and showed a  level of arrogance when you tried to enforce superiority by naming what you did in past . As I've said in previous posts you come across well and knowledgeable but this time im afraid you got it very wrong. 

Anyways back to adult conversation..


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Other interpretations are available. 🤔
		
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Agreed! From the likes of Trump, or others who 'believe' that an aggressive military approach is the 'best' one!


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			From a BBC article...
But the noted international legal scholar, Notre Dame Law School Prof Mary Ellen O'Connell, has this view of the legal implications:

"Pre-emptive self defence is never a legal justification for assassination. Nothing is. The relevant law is the United Nations Charter, which defines self defence as a right to respond to an actual and significant armed attack," she said.

"The use of a drone to kill Iranian Gen Qasem Soleimani in Baghdad was not in response to an armed attack on the United States. Iran has not attacked the sovereign territory of the United States," she said.

"In this case, the United States has not only committed an extrajudicial killing, it has carried out an unlawful attack within Iraq."
		
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A nation's (USA) embassy is considered sovereign and it may respond when attacked by another nation (Iran) operating illegally attacking targets outside its own borders in Iraq: Prof O'Connell may well be demonstrating the boundaries of her own sphere.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			A nation's (USA) embassy is considered sovereign and it may respond when attacked by another nation...
		
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I must have missed the announcement that a/the USA embassy had been 'attacked'. Got a reference?


drdel said:



			......and it may respond when attacked by another nation...
		
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That would seem to justify Iran's response! 

Btw. This article would suggest Prof O'Connell is well qualified to make those comments! https://law.nd.edu/directory/mary-ellen-oconnell/


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I must have missed the announcement that a/the USA embassy had been 'attacked'. *Got a reference?*

That would seem to justify Iran's response!

Btw. This article would suggest Prof O'Connell is well qualified to make those comments! https://law.nd.edu/directory/mary-ellen-oconnell/

Click to expand...

Here you go....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50956111


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I must have missed the announcement that a/the USA embassy had been 'attacked'. Got a reference?

That would seem to justify Iran's response!

Btw. This article would suggest Prof O'Connell is well qualified to make those comments! https://law.nd.edu/directory/mary-ellen-oconnell/

Click to expand...

The USA did promise retaliation at the time.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50956111


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			The USA did promise retaliation at the time.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50956111

Click to expand...

So the US Attacked some Iran/Iraq - Militia , then someone “protested” against those attacks - I believe no one died in those protests and the US responded by killing an Iranian General ? 

Doesn’t seem like a justifiable response - killing people because a building was attacked and no one was killed in that attack ? 

So far it seems the US is doing the killing at the moment


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the US Attacked some Iran/Iraq - Militia , then someone “protested” against those attacks - I believe no one died in those protests and the US responded by killing an Iranian General ?

Doesn’t seem like a justifiable response - killing people because a building was attacked and no one was killed in that attack ?

So far it seems the US is doing the killing at the moment
		
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And in a different country too - albeit, supposedly the one 'orchestrating' the protests.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			Just one of the incidents. During the Iraq Freedom initiative USA service people killed (excluding those injured) by Iran or it's proxies and planned by the 'General' is abut 600+. That's prior to the missile strikes today.
		
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sorry are you going back to the Iraq invasion ? And US deaths during that as justification? 

Was there not a treaty signed since the invasion , which Trump pulled out of and of course left the country in a mess after the “US Led invasion” ( which was of course revenge for what happened in Kuwait imo )


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			From a BBC article...
But the noted international legal scholar, Notre Dame Law School Prof Mary Ellen O'Connell, has this view of the legal implications:

"Pre-emptive self defence is never a legal justification for assassination. Nothing is. The relevant law is the United Nations Charter, which defines self defence as a right to respond to an actual and significant armed attack," she said.

"The use of a drone to kill Iranian Gen Qasem Soleimani in Baghdad was not in response to an armed attack on the United States. Iran has not attacked the sovereign territory of the United States," she said.

"In this case, the United States has not only committed an extrajudicial killing, *it has carried out an unlawful attack within Iraq.*"
		
Click to expand...

An alternative narrative...
“But in this case, the events of the last few weeks make Trump’s legal case all the easier. Iran had already begun attacking U.S. personnel. It supported militias that had already shelled a U.S. base in Iraq, an assault that killed one defense contractor and injured several U.S. soldiers. It had ordered its militias to storm the U.S. Embassy. With access to extensive electronic and human intelligence, the Trump administration could conclude that Soleimani and his associates were planning yet further attacks on American forces. Soleimani had, after all, planned the devastating campaign against U.S. forces during the Iraq occupation, provided support for Hezbollah and other terrorist groups that have lethally attacked American troops in the Middle East, and devised the Iranian drone strike on Saudi Arabia’s oil facilities.”
ref: John Yoo; Emanuel S. Heller Professor of Law at the University of California at Berkeley, a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			An alternative narrative...
“But in this case, the events of the last few weeks make Trump’s legal case all the easier....
		
Click to expand...

'Easier', not watertight!

Oh. And I wouldn't expect much different from the guy that drew up the 'Torture Memos' - that 'justified' all sorts of 'enhanced interrogation' abuse, including waterboarding, sleep deprivation and binding in stress positions.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2020)




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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2020)

She obviously didn't see pics of the thousands of folk mourning him. I'm certain they weren't all commanded to attend.

Oh, and just for 'balance' I've previously agreed with Bojo's comment about not regretting his demise.


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## Wolf (Jan 8, 2020)

Well just watched Trump's live address, it doesn't matter who writes his speeches he is simply a terrible orator. 

He started off saying alls well, then started issuing warnings to Iran and boasting of hiw much he has spent on defence and what rockets they have and how he has effectively taken out the worlds biggest terrorist but will respond further if Iran continues revenge attacks, then called us out along with yhe Germans, Russians and Chinese to stop backing Iran and join him. Thats merely a summary of what he said there was lot more, but it seems there's going to be a lot mire mileage in this yet as its effectively his way or no way.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 8, 2020)




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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			She obviously didn't see pics of the thousands of folk mourning him. I'm certain they weren't all commanded to attend.

Oh, and just for 'balance' I've previously agreed with Bojo's comment about not regretting his demise.
		
Click to expand...

She probably did although theres a lot more people in Iran than those in that demonstration, they may not have all been instructed to attend but it would be naive in the extreme to believe such shows are not state managed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Well just watched Trump's live address, it doesn't matter who writes his speeches he is simply a terrible orator.

He started off saying alls well, then started issuing warnings to Iran and boasting of hiw much he has spent on defence and what rockets they have and how he has effectively taken out the worlds biggest terrorist but will respond further if Iran continues revenge attacks, then called us out along with yhe Germans, Russians and Chinese to stop backing Iran and join him. Thats merely a summary of what he said there was lot more, but it seems there's going to be a lot mire mileage in this yet as its effectively his way or no way.
		
Click to expand...

It was an horrific conference and just sums up his and the US arrogance and feel of superiority over others 

Going back to 1979 just smacks of a grudge , going into the deal which he pulled out of ( which started it all again ) shows how he wants to undo anything Obama did.

The arrogance to highlight other countries who want to sort out peace without the use of force or killing people. 

Applying further sanctions to cripple the country further is not going to improve things.

Attempting to show of the military might but suggesting it was their wonderful military that stopped being getting harmed in the attacks - whereas I suspect Iran had no intention of harming life 

He is acting as if he has stopped war and won a victory - where as I think the threats and sanctions are just adding to it all


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## Del_Boy (Jan 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:









Click to expand...

One for ‘The Bank’ 🤪


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## Wolf (Jan 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was an horrific conference and just sums up his and the US arrogance and feel of superiority over others

Going back to 1979 just smacks of a grudge , going into the deal which he pulled out of ( which started it all again ) shows how he wants to undo anything Obama did.

The arrogance to highlight other countries who want to sort out peace without the use of force or killing people.

Applying further sanctions to cripple the country further is not going to improve things.

Attempting to show of the military might but suggesting it was their wonderful military that stopped being getting harmed in the attacks - whereas I suspect Iran had no intention of harming life

He is acting as if he has stopped war and won a victory - where as I think the threats and sanctions are just adding to it all
		
Click to expand...

It was terrible and highlighted some very poor leadership qualities in the way he spoke and arrogance in his words of how Iran has backed off but then flipped that around to threat they pose to world as the single biggest backers of terrorism. Gloating about size and spend of US military, calling out other leaders publicly and  further threats show no interest in resolving the issue without flexing a bit of US muscle.


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## gmc40 (Jan 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			An alternative narrative...
“But in this case, the events of the last few weeks make Trump’s legal case all the easier. Iran had already begun attacking U.S. personnel. It supported militias that had already shelled a U.S. base in Iraq, an assault that killed one defense contractor and injured several U.S. soldiers. It had ordered its militias to storm the U.S. Embassy. With access to extensive electronic and human intelligence, the Trump administration could conclude that Soleimani and his associates were planning yet further attacks on American forces. Soleimani had, after all, planned the devastating campaign against U.S. forces during the Iraq occupation, provided support for Hezbollah and other terrorist groups that have lethally attacked American troops in the Middle East, and devised the Iranian drone strike on Saudi Arabia’s oil facilities.”
ref: John Yoo; Emanuel S. Heller Professor of Law at the University of California at Berkeley, a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University.
		
Click to expand...

Not familiar with him, so looked him up. It’s clear why he has the opinion stated.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 8, 2020)

Americans believe in American Exceptionalism. This means more than just being exceptionally socially regressive.
It means that the world is about us and everyone else is supporting cast.

I don't like middle eastern nations not because of their ethnicity but because they are theocracies and I hate theocracy.
I hate Christian theocrats within my own country who have the effrontery to criticize Islamist theocrats elsewhere.
I have the right to do that, not they.

There' no legitimate government that's not a secular government, and particularly after what happened to us in autumn of 2001, having sympathy for middle eastern Islamists (ie, radical Muslims) is difficult for me. 9/11 genuinely messed up our lives on what now seems to be a permanent basis. We haven't been the same since.   Even Palestinians who may or may not be being screwed by Israeli occupation don't enter my mind much.

But too many Americans, particularly interior state Americans, have no cosmopolitan sensibilities at all. Our Latino population is the only American segment that speaks more than one language. At least half of us wouldn't know who Boris Johnson is or even neighbors Trudeau and Obrador.   How many Brits never heard of Idiot Trump?

So we have an international problem.  A serious one.  And nobody has a useful answer.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was an horrific conference and just sums up his and the US arrogance and feel of superiority over others

Going back to 1979 just smacks of a grudge , going into the deal which he pulled out of ( which started it all again ) shows how he wants to undo anything Obama did.

The arrogance to highlight other countries who want to sort out peace without the use of force or killing people.

Applying further sanctions to cripple the country further is not going to improve things.

Attempting to show of the military might but suggesting it was their wonderful military that stopped being getting harmed in the attacks - *whereas I suspect Iran had no intention of harming life*

He is acting as if he has stopped war and won a victory - where as I think the threats and sanctions are just adding to it all
		
Click to expand...

Not sure about the bit in bold. Launching 22 ballistic missiles towards US military bases doesn't strike me as having no intention to harm life.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2020)

Just thought I would ask this.
I thought military generals were like chess players!
They never make a move unless they can see what the outcome is.
They say they think three moves ahead so can predict an outcome.

So what is the outcome the American Military is looking for.?

Play with a couple of ex soldiers and they are scratching their heads as to what Trump is doing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not sure about the bit in bold. Launching 22 ballistic missiles towards US military bases doesn't strike me as having no intention to harm life.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-middle-east-51042156

I have this feeling that Iran didn’t target anything that was to harm people with some of the missiles not even hitting any area


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Americans believe in American Exceptionalism. This means more than just being exceptionally socially regressive.
It means that the world is about us and everyone else is supporting cast.

I don't like middle eastern nations not because of their ethnicity but because they are theocracies and I hate theocracy.
I hate Christian theocrats within my own country who have the effrontery to criticize Islamist theocrats elsewhere.
I have the right to do that, not they.

There' no legitimate government that's not a secular government, and particularly after what happened to us in autumn of 2001, having sympathy for middle eastern Islamists (ie, radical Muslims) is difficult for me. 9/11 genuinely messed up our lives on what now seems to be a permanent basis. We haven't been the same since.   Even Palestinians who may or may not be being screwed by Israeli occupation don't enter my mind much.

But too many Americans, particularly interior state Americans, have no cosmopolitan sensibilities at all. Our Latino population is the only American segment that speaks more than one language. At least half of us wouldn't know who Boris Johnson is or even neighbors Trudeau and Obrador.   How many Brits never heard of Idiot Trump?

So we have an international problem.  A serious one.  And nobody has a useful answer.
		
Click to expand...

no doubt the answer to all these questions to many americans would be "more Guns"


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just thought I would ask this.
I thought military generals were like chess players!
They never make a move unless they can see what the outcome is.
They say they think three moves ahead so can predict an outcome.

*So what is the outcome the American Military is looking for.?*

*Play with a couple of ex soldiers and they are scratching their heads as to what Trump is doing*.
		
Click to expand...

Id take a guess at taking out a dangerous terrorist leader who is despised by a great deal of his own people.
Iran is a country ruled by religious fanatics that force their citizens to live a life with poor human rights where at least 50% of them live in abject poverty even though the country is fairly rich, the Iranian government are always looking to push the boundaries and provoke unrest with the West, just look at their recent spate of blowing up ships and taking them by force, we should not be showing weakness and division at such times.  Calling a meeting of the UN Security Council would achieve diddly squat other than Russia and China vetoing any action.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-middle-east-51042156

I have this feeling that Iran didn’t target anything that was to harm people with some of the missiles not even hitting any area
		
Click to expand...

I am thinking that the air bases 'targetted' by the Iranians will be huge in area with lots of nothing in most of each.  So the Iranians could easy target and hit an air base deliberately missing buildings or bunkers.  That said ballistic missiles are almost by definition fire-and-forget.  However it would be interesting to know what missiles they actually fired - because if they had any form of terminal guidance it would have been relatively easy for the Iranians to have hit a building if they had wanted to.


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## drdel (Jan 9, 2020)

^^^ Iran has its own missile building capability.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just thought I would ask this.
I thought military generals were like chess players!
They never make a move unless they can see what the outcome is.
They say they think three moves ahead so can predict an outcome.

So what is the outcome the American Military is looking for.?

*Play with a couple of ex soldiers and they are scratching their heads as to what Trump is doing.*

Click to expand...

As someone already said, he is distracting people from his impeachment and getting re-elected.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			^^^ Iran has its own missile building capability.
		
Click to expand...

i didn't know Standard had a factory in Iran?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			^^^ Iran has its own missile building capability.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - but we are told the bases were hit by ballistic missiles.  If these missiles had any form of terminal guidance and it was their launch and mid-course phases that are ballistic then they could most probably very easily have hit buildings if they had wanted to.
(Background? In a previous life I was a missile guidance, control and navigation systems engineer - we thought of ourselves as clever rocket scientists  )


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - but we are told the bases were hit by ballistic missiles.  If these missiles had any form of terminal guidance and it was their launch and mid-course phases that are ballistic then they could most probably very easily have hit buildings if they had wanted to.
(Background? In a previous life I was a missile guidance, control and navigation systems engineer - we thought of ourselves as clever rocket scientists  )
		
Click to expand...

I am impressed Sir.
Surely they would need guidance in order to make sure they never hit any buildings?
As the other way it’s pot luck..


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I am impressed Sir.
Surely they would need guidance in order to make sure they never hit any buildings?
As the other way it’s pot luck..
		
Click to expand...

depends which direction you face the milk bottle


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I am impressed Sir.
Surely they would need guidance in order to make sure they never hit any buildings?
As the other way it’s pot luck..
		
Click to expand...

pure ballistic - yup - a bit of pot luck - depending upon your launch accuracy - but there will be some form of on-board guidance/navigation even if it is just an Inertial Navigation System - possibly GPS-aided.  But if you know where the buildings are and it is likely that the air bases each cover a huge area - then you can pretty much eliminate the risk of hitting a building you want to miss.

Different matter hitting a specific building you want to hit...my understanding is dated about how that is done these days - in any case it's not really something for an open forum 

Bottom line - I strongly suspect that if the Iranians had wanted to hit any building on any US air base - then then could have.

meanwhile US officials confident that the Ukrainian passenger aircraft was shot down by Iranian Air Defense missiles (SA-15s?)

Serious kit - awesome technology - that would probably have been in 'action-ready' mode in anticipation of possible retaliatory attack by the US following the Iranian attack on the airfields.  And a mis-identification or other error...What a mess...






Note that in a life following by missile guidance role my job was to assess global market demand for Western Air Defence systems in competition with such as Tor/Gauntlet.  No idea of leading systems today -  but Tor/Gauntlet was at the forefront of Air Defence systems technology 20yrs ago - so probably why the Iranians have it today.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			pure ballistic - yup - a bit of pot luck - depending upon your launch accuracy - but there will be some form of on-board guidance/navigation even if it is just an Inertial Navigation System - possibly GPS-aided.  But if you know where the buildings are and it is likely that the air bases each cover a huge area - then you can pretty much eliminate the risk of hitting a building you want to miss.

Different matter hitting a specific building you want to hit...my understanding is dated about how that is done these days - in any case it's not really something for an open forum 

Bottom line - I strongly suspect that if the Iranians had wanted to hit any building on any US air base - then then could have.
		
Click to expand...

Phil's link earlier showed that they did hit buildings (image from it below). Whether they targeted those buildings in particular or not is another matter.




And BBC News now reporting that the airliner that crashed was shot down by Iran by mistake....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51055219


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - but we are told the bases were hit by ballistic missiles.  If these missiles had any form of terminal guidance and it was their launch and mid-course phases that are ballistic then they could most probably very easily have hit buildings if they had wanted to.
(Background? In a previous life I was a missile guidance, control and navigation systems engineer - we thought of ourselves as clever rocket scientists  )
		
Click to expand...

I think from a previous conversation we both worked there at the same time. Not sure about you but all the missile systems I was involved with were either anti aircraft or ant tank.  At that time I think Iraq were firing those dumb Scuds at Israel.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Phil's link earlier showed that they did hit buildings (image from it below). Whether they targeted those buildings in particular or not is another matter.

View attachment 28916


And BBC News now reporting that the airliner that crashed was shot down by Iran by mistake....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51055219

Click to expand...

I think it’s the US media who are stating it has been shot down by Iran 

Seems some “US Officials” have said it was shot down - will be interesting to know how they have come to that conclusion , it appears because they believe the Anti Aircraft Missiles would be active and some signal picked up by satellites 

But Iran says it wasn’t , and the US Pentagon said it wasn’t - yet Trump said he has his “suspicions” 

This is going to get even more messy


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## Del_Boy (Jan 9, 2020)

Trudeau statement - current evidence from all sources points to an Iranian missile


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## Wolf (Jan 9, 2020)

So Trudeau statement says all evidence points to an Iran fired missile. Not helped by Iran refusal to allow the manufacturers or anyone outside of Tehran (possible exception for Ukraine) doesn't help with denial of it being shot down. This has a lot more to playout yet.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 9, 2020)

I'm no expert but how can you just accidently shoot down a plane , after firing 6 missiles and deliberately not killing anyone


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			no doubt the answer to all these questions to many americans would be "more Guns"

Click to expand...

I hope not.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 9, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm no expert but how can you just accidently shoot down a plane , after firing 6 missiles and deliberately not killing anyone 

Click to expand...

One suggestion on the BBC was that the Iranian anti aircraft defence system would have been turned on after they fired the missiles at the US bases. The defence system mistook the plane for a US warplane and fired at it. No idea if that is an automated system or if it's human error but it seems strange that they would fire at a target that low to the ground. I've got no military experience but would expect enemy planes to be flying a lot higher than a passenger jet just taking off.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2020)

A bit suspicious that Iran are bulldozing the crash site already .BBC news!


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## Wolf (Jan 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			A bit suspicious that Iran are bulldozing the crash site already .BBC news!
		
Click to expand...

Just saw that myself, if that doesn't scream cover up along with refusal to allow access to black box I don't know what is. 

Also what was with the people around Trump, muppets in cowboy hats, ithers in high vis and hard hats all that was missing is a red indian with full chieftain headress I was half expecting him to burst into a YMCA rendition


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just saw that myself, if that doesn't scream cover up along with refusal to allow access to black box I don't know what is.

Also what was with the people around Trump, muppets in cowboy hats, ithers in high vis and hard hats all that was missing is a red indian with full chieftain headress I was half expecting him to burst into a YMCA rendition
		
Click to expand...

It’s going to be one of them.
We know they did it but won’t have the proof.
That is a bit shocking to see a plane shot down.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s going to be one of them.
We know they did it but won’t have the proof.
That is a bit shocking to see a plane shot down.
		
Click to expand...

A bit like staging a car accident


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			One suggestion on the BBC was that the Iranian anti aircraft defence system would have been turned on after they fired the missiles at the US bases. The defence system mistook the plane for a US warplane and fired at it. No idea if that is an automated system or if it's human error but it seems strange that they would fire at a target that low to the ground. I've got no military experience but would expect enemy planes to be flying a lot higher than a passenger jet just taking off.
		
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Highly unlikely, it doesn't work like that.    If it did there would be passenger aircraft being shot down all the time.  There is an outside chance it was an accident but it smells bad to me.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Highly unlikely, it doesn't work like that.    If it did there would be passenger aircraft being shot down all the time.  There is an outside chance it was an accident but it smells bad to me.
		
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I agree an anti aircraft system would surely monitor incoming planes not ones leaving.
Or is that to simple, why would a manned system  shoot at a plane leaving the airport.?


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## gmc40 (Jan 10, 2020)




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## ColchesterFC (Jan 10, 2020)

Video now doing the rounds on the major news site supposedly showing the plane getting hit with the missile.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51055219


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2020)

Iran confirm they did shoot down the plane...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621


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## Wolf (Jan 11, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Iran confirm they did shoot down the plane...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621

Click to expand...

The admission is clearly a way of somehow attempting to play down tensions but is in direct conflict with their own statement of being adament they did not shoot it down with a missile just 2 days ago. Plus if it's human error they need to prosecute and publicly show the person responsible has been punished by law. That is one hell of a fall guy should they choose one as its a big difference between a commercial plane and a military one to seemingly make a mistake such as this, very easy to spot the difference between the 2.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2020)

Wolf said:



			The admission is clearly a way of somehow attempting to play down tensions but is in direct conflict with their own statement of being adament they did not shoot it down with a missile just 2 days ago. Plus if it's human error they need to prosecute and publicly show the person responsible has been punished by law. That is one hell of a fall guy should they choose one as its a big difference between a commercial plane and a military one to seemingly make a mistake such as this, very easy to spot the difference between the 2.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I just can’t understand why would you shoot a plane down that’s leaving an airport.
Maybe Trump is right ( I am agreeing with Trump) to deny them a nuclear bomb if this is how they use their arms.
It looks like they don’t know what they are doing.


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## gmc40 (Jan 11, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215928064753963008


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2020)

gmc40 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215928064753963008

Click to expand...

Should I be laughing at this as much as I am.  He’s serious - until it is pointed out to him and his acolytes how stupid it sounds - and then he’ll say he wasn’t being serious and his acolytes will tell us not to listen to his words but get his meaning - and we’ll not know what to think.  Of course Rex Tillerson knows from personal very close experience - calling Trump a ‘moron’ - or indeed a ‘f’n moron’.

Is this really real though - must go check ... but thing is - even if a spoof it could be real 🤪


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 15, 2020)

Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo yesterday so very not impressed by Trump's Press Secretary; the President's tweeting - and update on the impeachment


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 15, 2020)

And loving Anderson Cooper on the Press Secretary 






No Press Briefings for 304 days - could never happen here - phew.  

But hold on.  Word is that Johnson wants to move press briefings from the press lobby in the HoP to #10.  And of course when they are held in #10 Johnson and DomCUmm can decide who they give access to for these briefings.  So maybe not have all the press not 100% supportive - not so much space to exclude regional press?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2020)

Lev Parnas - worked v closely with Giuliani - is talking...and he is telling us some very interesting stuff...

_'Donald Trump knew and directed everything...Trump is lying'  _

Anderson Cooper

_https://edition.cnn.com/videos/poli...s-trump-knows-me-he-s-lying-ac360-sot-vpx.cnn _

Rachel Maddow (the guy beside Parnas is his Lawyer)





_https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...says-trump-lied-about-what-he-knew-on-ukraine _

The frog that is the PotUS is in a pot of water on a slow boil - but the GOP in the Senate can still switch it off.  But they might not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2020)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-nuclear-deal-france-germany-eu-a9286496.html

🤔


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## USER1999 (Jan 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-nuclear-deal-france-germany-eu-a9286496.html

🤔
		
Click to expand...

Another site behind a pay wall for me. Similar to the times, and the telegraph, both of which I no longer read. The Guardian is just about holding out, but if that goes, there won't be any papers worth reading left.
Yes, I could subscribe to one, but the downside to that is losing any balance you get from reading a different view.
If I remeber correctly, when the times went behind the paywall, their readership was decimated, and advertising fell correspondingly. I was surprised that others followed suit.

Off topic, but a relevant rant in my view.


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## Foxholer (Jan 21, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Another site behind a pay wall for me. Similar to the times, and the telegraph, both of which I no longer read. The Guardian is just about holding out, but if that goes, there won't be any papers worth reading left.
Yes, I could subscribe to one, but the downside to that is losing any balance you get from reading a different view.
If I remeber correctly, when the times went behind the paywall, their readership was decimated, and advertising fell correspondingly. I was surprised that others followed suit.

Off topic, but a relevant rant in my view.
		
Click to expand...

I don't subscribe and all I needed to to to get the report was to temporarily disable my AdBlocker. Wasn't actually worth the effort involved though - except to realise/learn that I've agreed with BoJo again! At this rate, I'll have to take a sock off to count by Brexit day!
Btw. I too *refuse* to subscribe to any online papers!


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## Kellfire (Jan 21, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Another site behind a pay wall for me. Similar to the times, and the telegraph, both of which I no longer read. The Guardian is just about holding out, but if that goes, there won't be any papers worth reading left.
Yes, I could subscribe to one, but the downside to that is losing any balance you get from reading a different view.
If I remeber correctly, when the times went behind the paywall, their readership was decimated, and advertising fell correspondingly. I was surprised that others followed suit.

Off topic, but a relevant rant in my view.
		
Click to expand...

How do you expect these papers to pay for good journalism without monetising?


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## USER1999 (Jan 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			How do you expect these papers to pay for good journalism without monetising?
		
Click to expand...

Advertising, which is directly related to the number of readers.


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## Kellfire (Jan 21, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Advertising, which is directly related to the number of readers.
		
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Sadly people just don’t want to read good journalism. They want The Sun and Daily Mail.


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## larmen (Jan 21, 2020)

Senate trial without evidence and witnesses is going to be a farce.


I am wondering if Trump (or unnamed co-conspirator 1) can then be indicted when he leaves office in 1 (or 5) years?
Is the federal prosecutor holding back the criminal stuff until Trump leaves office and protection of Barr as well as waiting out the possibility of a presidential pardon by Pence?
And of course there will be all the NY based stuff on top of that.

I guess he might be hit with plenty of suppeneas once stepping out of the white house?


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## User20204 (Jan 22, 2020)

So far it's been the same farce as it was in the house. One side saying he did this the other saying he did nothing wrong.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 22, 2020)

Our two party system is a one party system for the majority party.  Senate Republicans  are protecting our criminal president, and there's nothing to be done about it. We must wait for the elections, and I'm not sure how that will go.

Multiple viable parties would force dialog and compromise to force coalitions as none would have a majority by themselves.


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Sadly people just don’t want to read good journalism. They want The Sun and Daily Mail.
		
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You are so right. Sun readership - 1.4m, Mail readership - 1.2m. FT(my fav) - 180k, Guardian - 141k. As its a democracy, we know what the majority of the population want/think. Everyone's right, as its an opinion, but we don't have to agree with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2020)

Trump Ex National Security Adviser John Bolton says Trump withheld Ukraine military aid after asking for Ukraine investigation in to Biden/Burisma

Trump says John Bolton is lying

Trump Ex WH Chief of Staff (Marine Corps General) John Kelly says he believes Bolton

Interesting - witnesses called anybody?

Maybe - maybe not.  But still interesting.


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## Kellfire (Jan 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump Ex National Security Adviser John Bolton says Trump withheld Ukraine military aid after asking for Ukraine investigation in to Biden/Burisma

Trump says John Bolton is lying

Trump Ex WH Chief of Staff (Marine Corps General) John Kelly says he believes Bolton

Interesting - witnesses called anybody?

Maybe - maybe not.  But still interesting.
		
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This is one of those instances where injustice is going to be done on a massive scale and everyone involved knows as much. No one genuinely thinks Trump might be innocent but that doesn’t matter because of the shambles of their presidential system. Such a shame.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2020)

And when you get Trump's leading lawyer in the Impeachment Trial - Jay Sekulow - telling Fox News viewers (as they are basically only seeing and hearing what Trump's lawyers are saying) that the new accusations are unsourced - eh?  The source is Bolton...!

But liking Chris Wallace getting completely fed up with his Fox News colleagues.  And another nice sardonic commentary piece on it by Brian Tyler Cohen


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

The Adam Schiff comparative scenario with Obama and Mitt Romney is one thing - but the Dershowitz claim about quid pro quos in the public interest is verging on the insane!..

Dershowitz is saying that because Trump says that his re-election will be in the interest of the US public, then it is OK for Trump to seek such a QPQ (such as that he is accused of) to try and ensure his re-election.  So if Trump thinks his re-election is in the public interest, then his re-election therefore cannot be *against *the public interest...indeed Trump *not *being re-elected will be *against *the public interest so he is able to do whatever he can or wants to get re-elected.  That just nuts!


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 30, 2020)

Could be a separate thread but what is Trump doing with Israel/ Palastine. Looked more smarmy than normal this week when in Israel. The conflict will never be settled with The Israelis continually taking more land and Trump ploughing in $50 billion. He has also ’ sorted/recognised ‘Jerusalem as the capital. Unbelievable guy

Perhaps some of the more learned people on here would care to predict the likely outcome


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Could be a separate thread but what is Trump doing with Israel/ Palastine. Looked more smarmy than normal this week when in Israel. The conflict will never be settled with The Israelis continually taking more land and Trump ploughing in $50 billion. He has also ’ sorted/recognised ‘Jerusalem as the capital. Unbelievable guy

Perhaps some of the more learned people on here would care to predict the likely outcome
		
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Trump is simply wanting to be able to say to his core vote that he has sorted the Israel/Palestinian problem, and if Palestinians reject his deal then that's not his fault.  he got the deal.  That the Palestinians haven't been involved at all in coming to this 'deal' does not, I am guessing, bother Trump one iota as, in his transactional way of thinking, the offer of $50bn to the Palestinians (to buy them off) is a transactional offer from him that they can't refuse unless they are unreasonable people.


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## Wolf (Jan 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump is simply wanting to be able to say to his core vote that he has sorted the Israel/Palestinian problem, and if Palestinians reject his deal then that's not his fault.  he got the deal.  That the Palestinians haven't been involved at all in coming to this 'deal' does not, I am guessing, bother Trump one iota as, in his transactional way of thinking, the offer of $50bn to the Palestinians (to buy them off) is a transactional offer from him that they can't refuse unless they are unreasonable people.
		
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Think thats actually a perfectly good summary of what he's trying to achieve or at least show what he has supposedly achieved.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

And back on the Dershowitz argument.  

The extension of the argument (it's an authoritarian or monarchial absolutist argument) takes us to what Trump said couple of years ago - that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it.  That is effectively where the Dershowitz argument takes us.  If the individual on 5th Avenue was a risk to him being re-elected - then by shooting that individual Trump would simply be increasing the likelihood of his being re-elected - and as his re-election would be in the public interest then convicting him of shooting that person woulds fail, as being counter to the public interest.

See also Trump in the latest Parnas tape telling his team to get rid of the US Ambassador to Ukraine - Marie Yovanovitch...as she was a problem...

"Get rid of her! Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it.”


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 30, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Could be a separate thread but what is Trump doing with Israel/ Palastine. Looked more smarmy than normal this week when in Israel. The conflict will never be settled with The Israelis continually taking more land and Trump ploughing in $50 billion. He has also ’ sorted/recognised ‘Jerusalem as the capital. Unbelievable guy

Perhaps some of the more learned people on here would care to predict the likely outcome
		
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To a large degree it depends on how much fight the Palestinians have left in them. They have lost badly in recent uprisings so the desire to go fully down the violent route may not be so great. Whilst they may not accept the deal, it may simply be imposed and they will have no way of reversing it. All very sad.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To a large degree it depends on how much fight the Palestinians have left in them. They have lost badly in recent uprisings so the desire to go fully down the violent route may not be so great. Whilst they may not accept the deal, it may simply be imposed and they will have no way of reversing it. All very sad.
		
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If you , your parents, your grandparents and all down the years had fought tooth and nail - and died - for something you really believed in - that you believed was your right - it is not easy to walk away from that belief and pocket the money - knowing that you might be giving up the fight forever - that you are accepting that your 'enemies' have won.  And what would your forefathers think of that!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you , your parents, your grandparents and all down the years had fought tooth and nail - and died - for something you really believed in - that you believed was your right - it is not easy to walk away from that belief and pocket the money - knowing that you might be giving up the fight forever - that you are accepting that your 'enemies' have won.  And what would your forefathers think of that!
		
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It is not a fair fight though is it? The Isreali army is one of the best armed around and the Palestinians have what? How many times do they stand against bullets and missiles with stones in their hands. All very noble but dead is dead. 

In the past the gap between the two was perhaps not so great, clearly the groups linked to the Palestinians have some arms, but now the imbalance is huge, the fight is too one sided.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

And so as we head towards Trump's acquittal  - I listened to Laurence Tribe - Harvard Law School Constitutional Professor - on the GOP senators and the implications of their vote for the future of the presidency - and how they will be viewed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is not a fair fight though is it? The Isreali army is one of the best armed around and the Palestinians have what? How many times do they stand against bullets and missiles with stones in their hands. All very noble but dead is dead.

In the past the gap between the two was perhaps not so great, clearly the groups linked to the Palestinians have some arms, but now the imbalance is huge, the fight is too one sided.
		
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Yes it is - and of course the Palestinians know that - but as we know - feelings often trump fact.


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## User20204 (Jan 30, 2020)

Absolute farce of a "trial". I stopped watching cause it's a joke and will be a massive blight upon the democracy of the US.


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## Kellfire (Jan 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is not a fair fight though is it? The Isreali army is one of the best armed around and the Palestinians have what? How many times do they stand against bullets and missiles with stones in their hands. All very noble but dead is dead.

In the past the gap between the two was perhaps not so great, clearly the groups linked to the Palestinians have some arms, but now the imbalance is huge, the fight is too one sided.
		
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Sadly too many people see it as “Israel, sovereign nation. Palestine, terrorists.”

For many people, simply saying you’re on Palestine’s side makes you antisemitic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Absolute farce of a "trial". I stopped watching cause it's a joke and will be a massive blight upon the democracy of the US.
		
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I must admit that though I am very interested - just listening to Trump’s defence lawyers make such spurious arguments I find depressing.  And listening to basically all gop senators squirm, avoid and deflect is also really depressing - but the Harvard prof just tells it.  Of course Fox News viewers will just be seeing the Trump view and nothing about the reality.  But interesting that Mitch McConnell can’t guarantee he will get enough gop senator votes to prevent John Bolton from testifying...now that might not stop Trump being acquitted but it will sure put the gop senators in an awkward place.


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## ger147 (Jan 31, 2020)

No new witnesses to be called, the trial will be done in the next few days.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2020)

No real surprise - though Sen Alexander’s statement when deciding to not support witnesses would not please Trump hugely.

The letter from Lev Parnas’ lawyer to Mitch McConnell might make interesting reading for a bundle of Trump’s team and most supportive senators - Graham and Nunes included.


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## larmen (Feb 1, 2020)

The day he leaves office in a year or in 5, there will be court cases on mass.
Against him, against Rudy, and others where he would be able to give a pardon to now but can’t then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2020)

Missouri ain’t Kansas - well easy mistake to make I suppose - even for a PotUS...🤪
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/02/trump-kansas-city-missouri-super-bowl-tweet

bit like Man U being in Salford I guess


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

Trump acquitted - and of course the WH claims that Trump is fully exonerated.  Kudos to Mitt Romney for explaining why Trump may have been acquitted, but has absolutely not been fully exonerated.  But then I am guessing that Fox News coverage and reporting of the Mitt Romney statement may be someone limited.  Just guessing.


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## Wolf (Feb 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump ac
		
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No surprise at all henwas always going to be acquitted. All that's happened now is millions of dollars wasted with the trial and like helped him get reelected for another term as his supporters will use it to their advantage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No surprise at all henwas always going to be acquitted. All that's happened now is millions of dollars wasted with the trial and like helped him get reelected for another term as his supporters will use it to their advantage.
		
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Not wasted, as his misdemeanors are recorded for posterity - and that at least one GOP Senator could not in all conscience go along with it.  

That Trump was guilty of misdemeanors few disagree - just that many GOP Senators tell us that these misdemeanors did not merit being kicked out of office - especially at this point fairly close to a presidential election.


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## Wolf (Feb 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not wasted, as his misdemeanors are recorded for posterity - and that at least one GOP Senator could not in all conscience go along with it. 

That Trump was guilty of misdemeanors few disagree - just that many GOP Senators tell us that these misdemeanors did not merit being kicked out of office - especially at this point fairly close to a presidential election.
		
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Posterity isn't going to stop the man being POTUS, gaining a 2nd term and has enhanced him to his supporters. All those misdemeanors werr already known.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Posterity isn't going to stop the man being POTUS, gaining a 2nd term and has enhanced him to his supporters. All those misdemeanors werr already known.
		
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All of which may be true - excepting perhaps the last point - as many of his core supporters will not have had set out what he did in the context of _wrongdoing_ - and many will not see or hear GOP senators speak of what he did as being wrong.  They will hear the tailored versions they provide for Fox News...


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## Kellfire (Feb 6, 2020)

If they’d managed to impeach much earlier in his tenure more GOP would’ve been more likely to vote to remove him, knowing they had time to solidify Pence as the President and improve things before the next election. In my opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If they’d managed to impeach much earlier in his tenure more GOP would’ve been more likely to vote to remove him, knowing they had time to solidify Pence as the President and improve things before the next election. In my opinion.
		
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Which may well be true - though if you listen to GOP Senator Lamar Alexander you will hear the rather lame excuse along the lines of 'yes he did it - but...well - Trump may not have realised that he could not do it...'  

And that then makes it an 'honest' mistake (LOL), and according to Susan Collins (GOP Senator Maine) one that she believes Trump will learn from - though she later tweeted that she 'hoped' rather than 'believed', given how her initial comment was received with howls of laughter...Trump learn from this?  yes - he'll learn from it alright - that he can do pretty much whatever he wants between now and November's election and get away with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

Heard initial comments from Trump on being acquitted - and just wondering if he realises just how full of confected self-pity he sounds...

Waiting to hear what he says very shortly...

I have no doubt the Dems will take a pasting over how they have undermined the standing and security of the United States...

...and Mitt Romney?  Maybe he'll get trashed by tweet.


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## gmc40 (Feb 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard initial comments from Trump on being acquitted - and just wondering if he realises just how full of confected self-pity he sounds...

Waiting to hear what he says very shortly...

I have no doubt the Dems will take a pasting over how they have undermined the standing and security of the United States...

...and Mitt Romney?  Maybe he'll get trashed by tweet.
		
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Yup


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225288731235700737


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 6, 2020)

George W. Bush got a second term despite the absolute mess that he made of his first one.
It wouldn't surprise me if the diseased orangutan who presently disgraces the Oval Office gets re-elected as well.

Right now, pundits are saying that Trump might lose the popular vote by 10,000,000 votes this time and still win by a greater electoral college vote margin than he did the last time.

Appreciate your parliamentary system.  Things may seemed messed up from time to time, but you'll never get into the mess that we're in.

The orange cretin is on TV right now. His lips are moving, which is the certain sign that he's defecating on the truth.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 6, 2020)

Has he published his tax returns yet /


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Has he published his tax returns yet /
		
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Nope - but can’t really criticise on that front as I don’t believe that we in the U.K. have seen the government report on Russian interference in U.K. elections - publication of which was withheld until after the general election.  Or maybe I missed it.


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## User62651 (Feb 7, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			George W. Bush got a second term despite the absolute mess that he made of his first one.
It wouldn't surprise me if the diseased orangutan who presently disgraces the Oval Office gets re-elected as well.

Right now, pundits are saying that Trump might lose the popular vote by 10,000,000 votes this time and still win by a greater electoral college vote margin than he did the last time.

*Appreciate your parliamentary system.  Things may seemed messed up from time to time, but you'll never get into the mess that we're in.*

The orange cretin is on TV right now. His lips are moving, which is the certain sign that he's defecating on the truth.
		
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Not sure, we're trying pretty hard.

Our first past the post system leaves an awful lot of people alienated because their vote doesn't count and often never will depending on the constituency.

UK wide Tories had 42% vote share yet 56% of MPs. For balance SNP also misrepresented - 45% vote share for 81% of seats (in scotland). Both can then say they have mandates from the people but they don't really. Prefer coalition myself - tempers the extremes of right and left.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Not sure, we're trying pretty hard.

Our first past the post system leaves an awful lot of people alienated because their vote doesn't count and often never will depending on the constituency.

UK wide Tories had 42% vote share yet 56% of MPs. For balance SNP also misrepresented - 45% vote share for 81% of seats (in scotland). Both can then say they have mandates from the people but they don't really. *Prefer coalition myself - tempers the extremes of right and left.*

Click to expand...

....Which is what the electoral system for Holyrood is supposed to ensure...


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## User62651 (Feb 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			....Which is what the electoral system for Holyrood is supposed to ensure...
		
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They are presently in a minority govt propped up by Greens if not in coalition, bit like MAY with DUP. But they did get a majority under Salmond before yes, which was not supposed to happen.

At least all voters votes count in some way via the list system......I believe.


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## ger147 (Feb 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			They are presently in a minority govt propped up by Greens if not in coalition, bit like MAY with DUP. But they did get a majority under Salmond before yes, which was not supposed to happen.

At least all voters votes count in some way via the list system......I believe.
		
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Yes every vote counts. I'm not familiar with the exact calculations used but the principle is parties with a significant number of votes but fewer FTTP seats get more list seats that parties who have already secured a large number of FTTP seats to balance things out a bit.

Deffo seems a fairer way of doing things and ensuring that everyone's votes get represented.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

As someone of faith - though someone who too many times falls way below where I should be - I found what Trump said at the Prayer Breakfast, and what he subsequently said as he gloated over his acquittal and poured out his 'hate' towards the Democrats, and such as Pelosi and Romney - and what he said about wives and husbands - just very sad. Lawrence O'Donnell articulated my feelings rather well ...

https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word...p-doesn-t-understand-what-love-is-78283333517


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2020)

😂😂😂😂😂 and it’s not been photoshopped 😂😂😂😂😂


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## spongebob59 (Feb 8, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226070844935409665


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 8, 2020)

I've lapsed into secular humanism from the Catholic upbringing of my childhood, but if I were a man of faith, I'd have been quite offended by the behavior of our idiot president at that prayer function, whatever it was.

Who am I kidding? I'm offended that he takes us space and oxygen.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 8, 2020)

Fill ya boots....

http://trumpdonald.org/

147Mill and counting!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

Had to laugh a little when I heard someone on US TV compare Trump's pomposity and posing when making speeches with that adopted by Benito Mussolini.


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## bobmac (Feb 10, 2020)

Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?
		
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Well - in the ignorance or disdain he showed at the National prayer breakfast towards key aspects of the Sermon on the Mount - and hence towards basic tenets of Christianity - I think Trump is doing his best to separate church and state.  Bit bizarre that I’ve not heard any leaders of the evangelical church in the US call him out over what he said.  

As Joe Walsh said when pulling out of the race for GOP presidential candidate for the next GE - ‘Trumpism’ has turned into a very dangerous cult - and so he will be working to defeat Trump with whichever dem is selected.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Had to laugh a little when I heard someone on US TV compare Trump's pomposity and posing when making speeches with that adopted by Benito Mussolini.
		
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Trump was compared _unfavorably_ to Mussolini.

He was called a "dime-store" Mussolini.

A "dime store," once, in the not too distant past, certainly in Mussolini's day, was a popular type of retail store in America where where common and inexpensive items were sold.

Trump is only one person.  One very despicable person.
What augers frighteningly for America is the large number of troglodytes in our electorate who actually _like_ that excrement stain of a man.
(I lack the articulation skills to describe just how much I loathe Trump_ and_ each and every one of his supporters. My first day on this forum, I was cited for inappropriate language.)
I have actually had to expel cousins (genetically altered ones, I have to assume) and former friends_ permanently_ from my life.
Some things are absolutely irredeemable.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 12, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Trump was compared _unfavorably_ to Mussolini.

He was called a "dime-store" Mussolini.

A "dime store," once, in the not too distant past, certainly in Mussolini's day, was a popular type of retail store in America where where common and inexpensive items were sold.

Trump is only one person.  One very despicable person.
What augers frighteningly for America is the large number of troglodytes in our electorate who actually _like_ that excrement stain of a man.
(I lack the articulation skills to describe just how much I loathe Trump_ and_ each and every one of his supporters. My first day on this forum, I was cited for inappropriate language.)
*I have actually had to expel cousins (genetically altered ones, I have to assume) and former friends permanently from my life.
Some things are absolutely irredeemable.*

Click to expand...

Trouble is that if you don't listen to them then you'll not understand why Trump is so popular, and therefore will struggle to do things to change their minds about Trump. Calling them 'genetically altered' won't win them over.

There is a massive danger (or I suppose opportunity depending on your point of view) that the US follows the UK model yet again.  We vote for Brexit despite conventional wisdom suggesting remain will win, then Trump gets in against a lot of conventional wisdom saying he won't. We return a harder right government with an increased majority who were up against a well meaning but ultimately ineffective opposition leader who had cultivated a cult of personality echo chamber among his followers, mostly on social media.  Trump defeats Sanders.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is that if you don't listen to them then you'll not understand why Trump is so popular, and therefore will struggle to do things to change their minds about Trump. Calling them 'genetically altered' won't win them over.

There is a massive danger (or I suppose opportunity depending on your point of view) that the US follows the UK model yet again.  We vote for Brexit despite conventional wisdom suggesting remain will win, then Trump gets in against a lot of conventional wisdom saying he won't. We return a harder right government with an increased majority who were up against *a well meaning but ultimately ineffective opposition leader who had cultivated a cult of personality echo chamber among his followers, mostly on social media.*  Trump defeats Sanders.
		
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Interesting listen - James Carville - veteran Democratic Party strategist - reflecting upon lessons that the Democratic Party should learn from the experience of the British Labour Party.  Strong Dem voting friends living in Seattle we recently met up with were pretty much 100% certain that if Sanders got the Democratic ticket then Trump would win.  And in my view he also speaks a lesson for the British Labour Party...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is that if you don't listen to them then you'll not understand why Trump is so popular, and therefore will struggle to do things to change their minds about Trump. Calling them 'genetically altered' won't win them over.

There is a massive danger (or I suppose opportunity depending on your point of view) that the US follows the UK model yet again.  We vote for Brexit despite conventional wisdom suggesting remain will win, then Trump gets in against a lot of conventional wisdom saying he won't. We return a harder right government with an increased majority who were up against a well meaning but ultimately ineffective opposition leader who had cultivated a cult of personality echo chamber among his followers, mostly on social media.  Trump defeats Sanders.
		
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This doesn't take two things into consideration.

The United States do not need mere incremental change.
People mistake the fact that we've had a democratic republic since 1787 as an indication that we're socially progressive.
We're quite the opposite.
We have the *SAME* democratic republic that we formed in 1787 with no significant changes--we have the OLDEST and most antiquated democratic republic in the world, and its inefficiency screams that fact out loud.

Try to remember that we still had human slaves in the *1860s*. Did you? No.  Did any civilized nation? No.
You have an excellent NHS.  Socialized medicine is the standard for the entire civilized world.
*We are the only developed nation on the face of the earth without some form of socialized medicine* that makes health care a human right, not an expensive privilege.
The United States are the most socially regressive of all developed democracies in the world.

But there is another thing.  Our democratic republic is under existential threat.
The present administrative conducts itself in a totalitarian, fascist manner and has completely politicized our judicial system. We've somehow become a grossly corrupt banana republic.

Now keeping this in mind, we must understand that if only people who benefit from Republican policies voted Republican, they couldn't ever have control of our government.* Republicans gain public office on the votes of working class people voting DIRECTLY AGAINST THEIR OWN BEST ECONOMIC INTERESTS. *They vote for politicians who pander to their racism, xenophobia, religious bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, and anti-intellectualism.  The working class Republican voter is a truly vile person.  If I didn't purge such people from my life, I'd be making my own life worthless to me. 

There are people who were once close to me in my life who would now lose their teeth if they arrived on my doorstep (now that I have a better insight into their souls).  We've talked significantly on these pages about my belief in our Second Amendment, but the Trumpanzee is so vile that shooting is far too impersonal.  What's personal is the total shattering of a jawbone with my still surprisingly capable seventy-three-year-old fist. I lift weights every day just in case that opportunity should come.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 12, 2020)

Nobody cares about our monster Trump today, I guess.
Please teach me how to get that son of a bitch out of my mind as well.
Any tips would be welcome.

OK, poor choice of words. I apologize to the entire canine kingdom.
The most vicious, rabid dog ever was the Messiah compared to the cretin Trump.
Far more intelligent and better mannered.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Nobody cares about our monster Trump today, I guess.
Please teach me how to get that son of a bitch out of my mind as well.
Any tips would be welcome.

OK, poor choice of words. I apologize to the entire canine kingdom.
The most vicious, rabid dog ever was the Messiah compared to the cretin Trump.
Far more intelligent and better mannered.
		
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Just imagine him having his evil way with the fair Melania and you’ll force yourself to banish that image from your mind...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

Nothwithstanding all the assurances some GOP senators gave about Trump learning from his Impeachment experience - indeed he has learned something - that he can do whatever he wants with impunity.  

And so he sacks witnesses who gave evidence under oath - evidence that he didn't like; and indeed is suggesting that one of them (Vindman) should be charged as a result of the testimony given; and much more worrying for many he attempts (and succeeds?) in getting the Justice Department (strongly pressurised by another buddy Bill Barr) to slash it's recommended sentence for his mate Roger Stone from 7-9yrs (the guideline) to 3-4yrs.  

And four state prosecutors resign in protest.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/opinion/trump-roger-stone.html


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

The man is an insane fascist, and he has a plethora of supporters willing to support him in direst opposition to their own best interests.

Xenophobia, racism, religious bigotry, misogyny, and anti-intellectualism are most prevalent among poorly educated, low information Euro-American [white] working class voters,
and we have lots of them.

The Democratic Party's least progressive aspirants to the presidency get tons of convention delegates from states whose electoral votes are not going to go to the Democratic cnadidate anyway.  Our primary system is not conducive to putting forward a good nominee, and there appears to be no impediment to our continueing to swirl down the drain of history's toilet.


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			The man is an insane fascist, and he has a plethora of supporters willing to support him in direst opposition to their own best interests.

Xenophobia, racism, religious bigotry, misogyny, and anti-intellectualism are most prevalent among poorly educated, low information Euro-American [white] working class voters,
and we have lots of them.

The Democratic Party's least progressive aspirants to the presidency get tons of convention delegates from states whose electoral votes are not going to go to the Democratic cnadidate anyway.  Our primary system is not conducive to putting forward a good nominee, and there appears to be no impediment to our continueing to swirl down the drain of history's toilet.
		
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With you strident views on your President and SILH's strident views on Brexit and the UK's PM you two should get married !!!


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## Wolf (Feb 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			With you strident views on your President and SILH's strident views on Brexit and the UK's PM you two should get married !!!
		
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Imagine the offspring


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Imagine the offspring
		
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Please Nooo = Verhofstadt


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			With you strident views on your President and SILH's strident views on Brexit and the UK's PM you two should get married !!!
		
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I no longer have strident views on Brexit,  it will be what it will be and those responsible can take the plaudits and accept the brickbats...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm beyond child siring age and never had the quite right tools for child bearing.

SILH will have to look elsewhere, but good luck with that, Swinger.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2020)

Many expressing huge concerns over the behaviour of AG Bill Barr in respect of Trump and Trump's buddies (2000+ former DoJ officials signed up to a letter calling for his resignation).  Deputy AG under George H W Bush...Donald Ayer...writes in an Op-Ed

_In chilling terms, Barr’s own words make clear his long-held belief in the need for a virtually autocratic executive who is not constrained by countervailing powers within our government under the constitutional system of checks and balances.   _

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/donald-ayer-bill-barr-must-resign/606670/

It could never happen here...hmm...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

Last night at a rally - Trump decides to comment on the big Oscar winner - _Parasite _from South Korea.

"And the winner is a movie from South Korea, what the hell was that all about?...We got enough problems with South Korea with trade. On top of it, they give them the best movie of the year? Was it good? I don’t know...Can we get ‘Gone With the Wind’ back, please?”

Don't you just love him...of all the films that Trump decides appropriate to bring up for comparison it is one that reflects back to the days of black American 'servitude'.  What was it about *that *film that Trump finds so great.  And oh how the crowd laughed and cheered him to the rafters.

As President Lincoln said...

“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"


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## Russ_D (Feb 21, 2020)

My kids love him for the reason that every time they fart they shout "I've just done a Donald!".


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2020)

The really grim thing is that looking at clips of the Democrat debate last night on the news they are handing him another 4 years on a plate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The really grim thing is that looking at clips of the Democrat debate last night on the news they are handing him another 4 years on a plate.
		
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Indeed - Bloomberg made a total mess of it...and Sanders strides ahead.  As my Democratic friends from Seattle said to us couple of weeks back...almost _anyone _but Sanders...

I listened to snippets from a Town Hall that Pete Buttigieg did couple of days back...and I liked the sound of him and his honesty - including about being gay and what he gets from the Trump Press for being so.  But it will not be Pete.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - Bloomberg made a total mess of it...and Sanders strides ahead.  As my Democratic friends from Seattle said to us couple of weeks back...almost _anyone _but Sanders...

I listened to snippets from a Town Hall that Pete Buttigieg did couple of days back...and I liked the sound of him and his honesty - including about being gay and what he gets from the Trump Press for being so.  But it will not be Pete.
		
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It may be that I am just not used to US politics but the vitriol that was flying was appalling. When you consider they are supposed to be on the same side that was disturbing. Why would undecided voters vote for the eventual winner if their colleagues dislike each other so much?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It may be that I am just not used to US politics but the vitriol that was flying was appalling. When you consider they are supposed to be on the same side that was disturbing. Why would undecided voters vote for the eventual winner if their colleagues dislike each other so much?
		
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Indeed - I thought the same - they were intend on undermining each other and handing Trump all the ammo he needs when he is head-2-head with one of them.  That said I thought that in the PB Town Hall he made very conciliatory noises about working with whoever won the nomination - whilst being highly critical of Bloomberg about trying to buy the nomination.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It may be that I am just not used to US politics but the vitriol that was flying was appalling.
		
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When I told you that the residents of modern America pretty much loathe each other, did you not believe me?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

Just loving Trump's words of reassurance to the great American public on the coronavirus threat to the US 

'_There's a very good chance you're not gonna die_'

Well aaahhhl raaayt


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## Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just loving Trump's words of reassurance to the great American public on the coronavirus threat to the US

'_There's a very good chance you're not gonna die_'

Well aaahhhl raaayt 

Click to expand...

And he's right... Sometimes you do look for the minutest of reasons to have a pop at Donald, Boris or anyone that doesn't meet your criteria. 

Trump will have been advised by medical experts and scientists before he said anything. Try opening your mind just a little.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

Wolf said:



			And he's right... Sometimes you do look for the minutest of reasons to have a pop at Donald, Boris or anyone that doesn't meet your criteria.

Trump will have been advised by medical experts and scientists before he said anything. Try opening your mind just a little.
		
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Perfectly open - just rather amused at how the guy interprets and conveys what he has been told 

Trump will have been advised about a vaccine - and so he told the US public that 'we're very close to a vaccine' - not exactly what the experts would have told him...

https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/26/trump-mixed-messages-on-coronavirus/

Not surprisingly he is blaming the Fake News Media for exaggerating the risk - because Wall Street experienced falls - he says because of that exaggeration - and the falls in Wall Street might impact his re-election - and that is what the Fake News media want. 

Well that's how he sees it...and he may be right - though I am not so sure that the markets react to what the Fake News Media say...more likely that they react to the facts behind the headlines.


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## Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perfectly open - just rather amused at how the guy interprets and conveys what he has been told 

Trump will have been advised about a vaccine - and so he told the US public that 'we're very close to a vaccine' - not exactly what the experts would have told him...

https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/26/trump-mixed-messages-on-coronavirus/

Not surprisingly he is blaming the Fake News Media for exaggerating the risk - because Wall Street experienced falls - he says because of that exaggeration - and the falls in Wall Street might impact his re-election - and that is what the Fake News media want.

Well that's how he sees it...and he may be right - though I am not so sure that the markets react to what the Fake News Media say...more likely that they react to the facts behind the headlines.
		
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SILH anyone who reads your posts can see you're far from open minded on anything Trump, Boris or the like do. 

You take any bait you can to push your bias against them


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2020)

^^^ the seasonal 'flu' is far more deadly for those in 'high' risk categories.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			^^^ the seasonal 'flu' is far more deadly for those in 'high' risk categories.
		
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indeed to date it is - and it may well be - but there is currently no vaccine for Covid19


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 27, 2020)

Trump fired and didn't replace the entire national agency which had the responsibility for containing pandemics. 
Nobody has an "open mind" about Trump.
Tolerance for Trump indicates the absence of a functional mind.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Trump fired and didn't replace the entire national agency which had the responsibility for containing pandemics.
Nobody has an "open mind" about Trump.
Tolerance for Trump indicates the absence of a functional mind.
		
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Don't try defending Trump with mere facts...you are simply a Fake News 'Jim Acosta'


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## gmc40 (Feb 27, 2020)

Wolf said:



			SILH anyone who reads your posts can see you're far from open minded on anything Trump, Boris or the like do.

You take any bait you can to push your bias against them
		
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Is there any reason to keep an open mind on Trump? Bias? The man is corrupt beyond belief, he lies daily, has no redeeming qualities and is an absolutely certainty to end up in prison once he’s out of office. 

I knew he’d be bad when he was elected but he’s far surpassed my expectations. 

How anyone could attempt to defend him is baffling???


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## Hobbit (Feb 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			^^^ the seasonal 'flu' is far more deadly for those in 'high' risk categories.
		
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Is it? Also seen a report that says it has spread quicker than SARS, and is proving more fatal. Might be splitting hairs but the response by so many countries is way more than for any other 'flu' we've had. Hysteria or what? I don't know but I am concerned about it, and no other 'flu' virus has ever bothered me.


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## Hobbit (Feb 27, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Is there any reason to keep an open mind on Trump? Bias? The man is corrupt beyond belief, he lies daily, has no redeeming qualities and is an absolutely certainty to end up in prison once he’s out of office.

I knew he’d be bad when he was elected but he’s far surpassed my expectations.

How anyone could attempt to defend him is baffling???
		
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^^^^ the above with brass knobs on. As well as being morally bankrupt, he's downright dangerous from a global perspective. He worries me more than Iran.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			SILH anyone who reads your posts can see you're far from open minded on anything Trump, Boris or the like do.

You take any bait you can to push your bias against them
		
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They are both deceitful and self-serving serial liars...of course I am biased against them.  Anyone may choose to accept and put up with such as them and that is their prerogative - but I am not - though it is unfortunate that I have to...

Trump of course is an order of magnitude or two worse than Johnson.


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They are both deceitful and self-serving serial liars...of course I am biased against them.  Anyone may choose to accept and put up with such as them and that is their prerogative - but I am not - though it is unfortunate that I have to...

Trump of course is an order of magnitude or two worse than Johnson.
		
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Is there a balance to be struck between recognising them for what they are and being some sort of Jesus figure clearing the temple?

Who is listened to, a screacher from a pulpit or someone who speaks calmly with balance?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Is there a balance to be struck between recognising them for what they are and being some sort of Jesus figure clearing the temple?

Who is listened to, a screacher from a pulpit or someone who speaks calmly with balance?
		
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I did say that Trump is a couple of orders of magnitude worse than Johnson - though I fear Johnson - driven by Cummings - is taking lessons from the Trump Play Book.  Does Johnson speak calmly with balance?  Of course on some things he does.  But that for me does not change my view of the words and actions of Johnson - and how these words and actions reflect his character and instincts.  But I will try and be positive reflecting that at least he is not Trump.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2020)

6 die in Washington state as a result of coronavirus.  Wondering if Trump is still spouting the _'it's a Dem hoax' _line of a couple of nights ago, or whether he's apologised to the US public for pushing misleading untruths.


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			6 die in Washington state as a result of coronavirus.  Wondering if Trump is still spouting the _'it's a Dem hoax' _line of a couple of nights ago, or whether he's apologised to the US public for pushing misleading untruths.
		
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Any preventable death is to be regretted but 6 in a population of 7.6 million is not necessarily something to be exaggerated (yet). I wonder how many have died from other season illnesses, crime etc. Is it rational to try and implicate Trump?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Any preventable death is to be regretted but 6 in a population of 7.6 million is not necessarily something to be exaggerated (yet). I wonder how many have died from other season illnesses, crime etc. Is it rational to try and implicate Trump?
		
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Of course it is not rational to implicate Trump for Coronavirus and I did not do any such thing. Just as it is not rational for Trump to call out this as a 'Dem Hoax'. 

But many US experts in the field of managing such things are pointing out major confusion and uncertainty in the WH handling of this also - much of that they think brought about by such as the lies spouted by Trump about the numbers infected and about the timescales for a vaccine...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2020)

Does PotUS realise how grotesque he looks and sounds in the CDC expressing in his views on the coronavirus outbreak in the US and on himself - and wearing a campaigning KAG hat.at the same time.  I guess he doesn't care.   But maybe Americans should - and maybe they will when they speak to their doctor and discover that Trump has been spinning and spinning porkies.


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## Kellfire (Mar 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does PotUS realise how grotesque he looks and sounds in the CDC expressing in his views on the coronavirus outbreak in the US and on himself - and wearing a campaigning KAG hat.at the same time.  I guess he doesn't care.   But maybe Americans should - and maybe they will when they speak to their doctor and discover that Trump has been spinning and spinning porkies.







Click to expand...

He’s a national embarrassment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			He’s a national embarrassment.
		
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He didn't want the cruise liner to dock and the passengers to disembark as he didn't want those Americans on board diagnosed as having the virus to _spoil _the numbers as he 'liked the numbers' as they were - as far as he is concerned those Americans on the ship did not count as being 'our fault'.

Does he think Americans are that daft that they will not be able to understand that those on the liner are not in themselves indicative of a spreading of the virus *in *the US - that he believes them so daft that they will blame *him *for a sudden jump brought about by the cruise ship numbers?

It's insane, and through his words and actions he demonstrates just how utterly grotesque and twisted is his thinking about the world he lives in and about the country of which he is President.  This is further exemplified by reports that the WH is suppressing advice from the CDC that, as a risk mitigation, seniors should avoid non-essential air travel.  This had to be leaked.

And meanwhile in Fox News land we have this sort of stuff from Trish Regan.  It's tripe, lies and disinformation - whatever biases you might think there are in the BBC - thank goodness we have the BBC - don't let those in this country that would destroy it get their way.  Because if Fox News is a vision of what our future could be without the BBC...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 11, 2020)

I am so depressed by the success of Republican-Lite Joe Biden in the US Democratic Party primaries that I can't turn on the TV and have to double my already maxed-out Prozac dosage.
The cretin Trump will kick his ass in the general election come November-- winning a huge majority of electoral votes while losing the popular vote by a greater margin than he did last time.

Your goddamned impossible immigration laws are leaving me to spend my last days in this socially regressive hell hole of a country.  I could probably get into Italy on an ethnicity claim, but then I'll just croak on the pandemic virus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

And what a surprise - not - when Trump eventually has to accept that the virus is starting to spread rapidly in the USA and numbers of deaths and infections starting to be not so 'good' - and with criticism of lack of direction and leadership by him and of poor coordination and distribution of testing kits growing - Trump turns from blaming Obama and the Dems to blaming the EU - without providing any backup evidence or argued basis for his criticism and view that the spread _in_ the US is the EUs fault.  So within 48hrs Trump spins from Fake News and nothing to see hear - all under control - to shutting down air travel with the EU... 

Putting aside questions around the logic of continuing to let US citizens travel freely between US and the EU; and that EU citizens can simply travel to UK or Ireland to fly to the US - this will be presented by Fox News and Trump's acolytes on the Hill as solid decision making by the president.  Ignoring of course the fact that the real issue for the US is internal US management of the spread of the virus.  

But of course Trump _would _direct his attention towards the EU as he needs to divert criticisms from himself to somewhere else - he can't really blame the virus and would have the EU collapse and disintegrate for his own political purposes.  As many commentators are observing - the coronavirus pandemic could well be the one thing that could undermine Trumps chances of a 2nd term.

We can but shrug, wonder and indeed despair a bit for our cousins across the Pond.


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## JollyRedDevil (Mar 12, 2020)

This is what's happening in Iran which is being kept from the main news channels

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-518




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...68cba0c429ed066b59202a&pinned_post_type=share


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

JollyRedDevil said:



			This is what's happening in Iran which is being kept from the main news channels

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-518




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-51829559?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5e68cba0c429ed066b59202a&Iran reports biggest daily death toll yet&2020-03-11T12:52:55.824Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:38eee397-abac-4c32-8f85-2560cad79df2&pinned_post_asset_id=5e68cba0c429ed066b59202a&pinned_post_type=share

Click to expand...

Not really my experience tbh - I've seen the problems in Iran being reported on the BBC and Channel4 news.  Plus concerns about UK citizens currently held in Iranian jails...

Might have missed some specific Iranian issues

As an aside - we are watching Channel4 News at 7pm a lot at the moment as it is putting real focus on the pandemic with some lengthy and really informative interviews.  And it doesn't bother doing much in the way of royal, celeb, or general interest stuff.


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## patricks148 (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He didn't want the cruise liner to dock and the passengers to disembark as he didn't want those Americans on board diagnosed as having the virus to _spoil _the numbers as he 'liked the numbers' as they were - as far as he is concerned those Americans on the ship did not count as being 'our fault'.

Does he think Americans are that daft that they will not be able to understand that those on the liner are not in themselves indicative of a spreading of the virus *in *the US - that he believes them so daft that they will blame *him *for a sudden jump brought about by the cruise ship numbers?

It's insane, and through his words and actions he demonstrates just how utterly grotesque and twisted is his thinking about the world he lives in and about the country of which he is President.  This is further exemplified by reports that the WH is suppressing advice from the CDC that, as a risk mitigation, seniors should avoid non-essential air travel.  This had to be leaked.

And meanwhile in Fox News land we have this sort of stuff from Trish Regan.  It's tripe, lies and disinformation - whatever biases you might think there are in the BBC - thank goodness we have the BBC - don't let those in this country that would destroy it get their way.  Because if Fox News is a vision of what our future could be without the BBC...







Click to expand...

no suprise this is the Donalds Fav new show


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## Crazyface (Mar 12, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Is there any reason to keep an open mind on Trump? Bias? The man is corrupt beyond belief, he lies daily, has no redeeming qualities and is an absolutely certainty to end up in prison once he’s out of office.

I knew he’d be bad when he was elected but he’s far surpassed my expectations.

How anyone could attempt to defend him is baffling???
		
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I think he's brilliant !!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I think he's brilliant !!!!!
		
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Well his face certainly shines - and not in a saintly way...

Today Harvey Weinstein...major precedent set.


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## gmc40 (Mar 12, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I think he's brilliant !!!!!
		
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That doesn’t surprise me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

He's so brilliant that last night, whilst reading his autocued statement to the US people, he stated that his air travel ban would cover goods as well as people - and what d'ya know - that scared the bejeezus out of the US Markets which took a big tumble before Trump's aides corrected his misspeak. He is just the most brilliant something indeed.


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## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I think he's brilliant !!!!!
		
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Suggest you ask the doc to up your meds...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Suggest you ask the doc to up your meds...

Click to expand...

One 'good' thing about Trump - and most very recently exemplified by his disastrous Address to the Nation two nights ago - he makes Johnson seem the most authentic, reliable, stable, logical and knowledgeable leader any country could ever wish to have. 

Apparently he is baffled, confused and very angry that his words in the Address did nothing to reassure the nation and stabilise the markets, but instead seem to have made everything worse.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One 'good' thing about Trump - and most very recently exemplified by his disastrous Address to the Nation two nights ago - he makes Johnson seem the most authentic, reliable, stable, logical and knowledgeable leader any country could ever wish to have. 

Apparently he is baffled, confused and very angry that his words in the Address did nothing to reassure the nation and stabilise the markets, but instead seem to have made everything worse.
		
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He's not the only one who is baffled. I just can't believe he's still in office let alone running for and maybe winning another term in office. How on earth can a God fearing, bible-punching, intelligent country like the USA can tolerate a lying, cheating, evil misogynist as POTUS.


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## gmc40 (Mar 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			He's not the only one who is baffled. I just can't believe he's still in office let alone running for and maybe winning another term in office. How on earth can a God fearing, bible-punching, intelligent country like the USA can tolerate a lying, cheating, evil misogynist as POTUS.
		
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Consider Crazyface. 

Imagine an American version. 

Multiply by xxx million

There’s your answer!


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Consider Crazyface.

Imagine an American version.

Multiply by xxx million

There’s your answer!
		
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But, equally, for every Crazyface there must be 100 people who think the opposite... surely?


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=198484354818709



Well yet again he’s inspiring us all to have faith in him...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Of _course _we know why Trump is allowing travel to and from UK&I.  We know where Trump has his golf courses...
Loved the 'outtakes'


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## gmc40 (Mar 15, 2020)

https://www.google.com.mt/amp/s/www...ns-scientists-for-coronavirus-cure-2020-3?amp


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

I think Trump might now have realised that he has screwed up massively by telling the US public that the coronavirus is just Dem fake news...but his supporters might not truly believe what he said yesterday - which was at last some realism and measures similar to UKs new ones - but will he tell them that he got it wrong and apologise.  Because I think he needs to to get full buy-in.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			He's not the only one who is baffled. I just can't believe he's still in office let alone running for and maybe winning another term in office. How on earth can a God fearing, bible-punching, intelligent country like the USA can tolerate a lying, cheating, evil misogynist as POTUS.
		
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I had a Skype session with my Son the other evening, hes now a USA Citizen.  He explained the way the American electral system worked and how it makes it possible for Trump to get elected. I have to admit I still find it difficult to follow but he explained that it harps back to the days of the founding fathers and was designed to favour the interests of the powerful land owners and still follows those same principals even though the centres of power have shifted considerably.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I had a Skype session with my Son the other evening, hes now a USA Citizen.  He explained the way the American electral system worked and how it makes it possible for Trump to get elected. I have to admit I still find it difficult to follow but he explained that it harps back to the days of the founding fathers and was designed to favour the interests of the powerful land owners and still follows those same principals even though the centres of power have shifted considerably.
		
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I have Alistair Cooke's _America _on a shelf just itching to be re-read in the context of Trump.  It's a great book (of a great series) and if I recall does a good job of explaining how and why the US Presidential system and the constitution were set up as they were.  But I can't remember.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have Alistair Cooke's _America _on a shelf just itching to be re-read in the context of Trump.  It's a great book (of a great series) and if I recall does a good job of explaining how and why the US Presidential system and the constitution were set up as they were.  But I can't remember.
		
Click to expand...

Might be worth looking if theres a kindle version while having more time on my hands.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I had a Skype session with my Son the other evening, hes now a USA Citizen.  He explained the way the American electral system worked and how it makes it possible for Trump to get elected. I have to admit I still find it difficult to follow but he explained that it harps back to the days of the founding fathers and was designed to favour the interests of the powerful land owners and still follows those same principals even though the centres of power have shifted considerably.
		
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I think the powers have shifted from the landowners to big business. Presidencies are bought by big business paying for the best campaign.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think the powers have shifted from the landowners to big business. Presidencies are bought by big business paying for the best campaign.
		
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The voting system is complicated where certain states have a priority.  Not just big business.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

Reporter Peter Alexander asks Trump to give words of comfort and support to Americans fearful of Coronavirus - and what words of comfort did Trump respond with...?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v..._reprehensible_trademark_bullshit_attack.html

Note the expression on the reporter just along from Alexander - John Roberts is the Fox News White House correspondent. And when the Fox News guy is rolling his eyes Trump is treading on dodgy ground.

Mike Pence later answered the same question calmly and sensibly.

i can’t imagine how some folks standing with Trump on the podium must think - esp. Deborah Brix and Anthony Fauci - neither of whom would be called Trumpists.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2020)

If there was any doubt that the man is a complete & utter charlatan, that should dispel it.  Sadly however I can see him getting another 4 years at the polls.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

Was watching an american news channel last night. He was getting a good kicking from quite a few experts in all fields. Cancelling a few things that Obama had in place has not helped him one bit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Reporter '...four senators are in isolation...'

Trump '...who are they please, who are they?'

Reporter '...ah -  Mitt Romney, Senator A, Senator B and Senator C'

Trump '...Romney's in isolation?'

Reporter 'Yes'

Trump 'Gee - that's too bad'

The guy is ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

In yesterday's press briefing Trump tells the US that things will be relaxed soon - in weeks - he's not 'looking at months'. 

Guess who wasn't on the podium with him yesterday - yes - Dr Anthony Fauci - he who often follows Trump onto the podium and though not directly contradicting the President states the truth of it. 

Reports are that Fauci has been telling Trump that such 'expectations' are very misleading - but Trump doesn't want to hear that and so clearly has decided he didn't want Fauci on the podium with him yesterday.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/23/cor...s-could-reopen-soon-while-fighting-covid.html

Widespread view is that Covid-19 President of the US is Governor Andrew Cuomo.  Democratic Governors (of California and NY states) are taking a lead where their President is failing miserably.


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2020)

Rarely watch what Trump has to say. My mind is made up on what an absolute loon he is. Watched a bit yesterday... its unbelievable. A country like America being led by (probably) the most dangerous man in the world. 

Countries around the world trying to do the right thing over C19, and he's going to let it run wild. Maybe the world should shut their borders to Americans, post-crisis.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Rarely watch what Trump has to say. My mind is made up on what an absolute loon he is. Watched a bit yesterday... its unbelievable. A country like America being led by (probably) the most dangerous man in the world.

Countries around the world trying to do the right thing over C19, and he's going to let it run wild. Maybe the world should shut their borders to Americans, post-crisis.
		
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Many are saying that Trump is not in control.  it is the governors of California and New York states (amongst a few others) who are telling it how it is and acting unilaterally - as they can - effectively ignoring *anything *that Trump is saying about it now and how long it will last.  Indeed the briefings given by Andrew Cuomo are excellent.   A world away from Trump's Tripe. 

By his diminishing of the virus in January and February - calling it out to be a hoax etc - Trump did not - could not - initiate pro-active preventative measures - as doing so would undermine his 'It's a Hoax' line he was putting it out to Trumpers.  Ultimately he will be held to account - if not by the American public or the courts, then by his Maker.


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## User20204 (Mar 24, 2020)

All he cares about is the economy. When and if this is over I guarantee you he takes some kind of credit for it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			All he cares about is the economy. When and if this is over I guarantee you he takes some kind of credit for it.
		
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He might well try.  No doubt he'll be blaming the likes of Governors Cuomo (NY) and Newsome (Ca) for the possibly dire condition of their state economies when US pulls out of this.  And he'll say that they didn't need to do what they have done.

Meanwhile on Sunday he tweets the good folks of the USA:

WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF, AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD, WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!” 

And remember way back 9th March what he was saying...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/global-markets-crash-coronavirus-oil-trump


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## User20204 (Mar 24, 2020)

Surely there must be some kind of system inplace that can step in and have this man step aside other than impeachment (which failed), he must be the only one who believes what he's saying.


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## hovis (Mar 24, 2020)

I can't believe he thinks America will be open for business in time for Easter


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2020)

With 25,000 cases in NY state alone... wow! he's doing a grand job of containment.


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ultimately he will be held to account - if not by the American public or the courts, then by his Maker.
		
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So an eternity burning in hell then?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2020)

He is just handling this through the prism of his reelection. That is all he cares about, anything else is secondary.


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

Surely he has to be removed at this stage for the safety of the people!


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## Robster59 (Mar 25, 2020)

A really interesting article here

Coronavirus: What this crisis reveals about US - and its president

And what is the typical response of the American citizen?  Buy more guns!


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## User20204 (Mar 25, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Surely he has to be removed at this stage for the safety of the people!
		
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That's as I said in my previous reply, there has to be some kind of thing in place to protect the people from a mad man, surely he can't be all powerful as like a dictator.


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## Robster59 (Mar 26, 2020)

This is what happens when stupid, arrogant people like Trump start spouting words as facts! 
Coronavirus: US man dies after taking drug he thought stopped virus

He's a danger to the USA but he's like one of these kids who've never had anyone say No to them.  A spoilt brat.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So an eternity burning in hell then?
		
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Well he seems to believe in a Maker - and where beliefs of most of his like-minded in the States seem to sit in respect of heaven and hell - then Yes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

Strikes me that Trump is taking a hands-off position; slopey-shouldering things to the state governors, and speaking up Easter as when it’ll be fine to go back to normal - all so that when things are grim at Easter he can simply blame the state governors.  He’ll be claiming that if they’d listened to him things wouldn’t be so grim.  As evidenced by his words and actions this is one despicable person.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As evidenced by his words and actions this is one despicable person.
		
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Ya think?


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## Robster59 (Mar 27, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Ya think?
		
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Well you warned that this would happen.  
This is what happens when you elect someone who just says what he believes people need to hear to get himself elected.  He had no qualifications for this role, and it is now showing. 
The USA have now overtaken China in the number of cases and it is going to get dramatically worse with no public healthcare, people still nay saying the severity of the situation, and everybody trying to blame everyone else. 
You really do have my sympathies.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 27, 2020)

You actually get the impression that Trump sees the table showing more infections in the USA than China and thinks it is good news.   I had dealings with him in the 1980s over the USFL (a three-year rival to the NFL) and he was the same up-his-own-arse full-of-carp moron that he is now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			You actually get the impression that Trump sees the table showing more infections in the USA than China and thinks it is good news.   I had dealings with him in the 1980s over the USFL (a three-year rival to the NFL) and he was the same up-his-own-arse full-of-carp moron that he is now.
		
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..and he is attacking some state governors for pleading for federal government support and complaining that they don't have enough ventilators and PPE - but with no federal coordination it's not straightforward to identify where there is currently a 'surplus' and move it to where there is a 'need'.

And we have Trump talking as if many hospitals are only _claiming _they need the numbers they need, when previously they needed so few.  All in an attempt to make him look bad.  And as far as individual states and counties within states being able to unilaterally decide that they are able to relax separation constraints and business closures for Easter.  Apart from the sheer recklessness of it - does the guy not understand that viruses don't respect county or state boundaries? It's utterly horrific.  God Help America.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 27, 2020)

Is this man in denial,suggesting on the news the USA will be back working soon


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1243816885390643200


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## IanM (Mar 28, 2020)

Here sonny.   Have a pen!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2020)

Crackerjack!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2020)

Odd swear word but powerful stuff.  https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/fo...-the-deaths-of-millions/#.Xn96DHD6pxM.twitter


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well he seems to believe in a Maker - and where beliefs of most of his like-minded in the States seem to sit in respect of heaven and hell - then Yes
		
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He’s a well known atheist who fakes it for the votes.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 28, 2020)

Thank you to whomever started this thread to give me a place to vent.
I see that orange buffoon on TV and my blood pressure goes through the roof.
I doubt that I've ever experienced this level of seething, viscerally felt hatred in my life before.
I though that I'd reached my limits with George W. Bush, and then this blob of disgusting excrement comes along and makes Bush look like FDR in comparison.

Somewhere in the depths of the Mariana Trench are whale droppings.
Various aquatic parasites feed off those droppings.
Donald J. Trump has to look upward to those parasites.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 28, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Thank you to whomever started this thread to give me a place to vent.
I see that orange buffoon on TV and my blood pressure goes through the roof.
I doubt that I've ever experienced this level of seething, viscerally felt hatred in my life before.
I though that I'd reached my limits with George W. Bush, and then this blob of disgusting excrement comes along and makes Bush look like FDR in comparison.

Somewhere in the depths of the Mariana Trench are whale droppings.
Various aquatic parasites feed off those droppings.
Donald J. Trump has to look upward to those parasites.
		
Click to expand...

He certainly comes across as a complete BE


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## bobmac (Mar 28, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I see that orange buffoon on TV and my blood pressure goes through the roof.
		
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Don't watch him then


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Don't watch him then  

Click to expand...

Could always watch Hilary and her sick comments.


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## Old Skier (Mar 29, 2020)

Well with your experience @Ye Olde Boomer who would you put as the number one president during your lifetime. Although not to up there when it come to American politics cant remember anyone really being up their .


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well with your experience @Ye Olde Boomer who would you put as the number one president during your lifetime. Although not to up there when it come to American politics cant remember anyone really being up their .
		
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If Franklin Roosevelt lived to finish his last term, he would clearly have been the best US president of my lifetime. He died shortly before I was born.

Despite my being from the most progressive wing of our Democratic Party, I suppose the best president of my lifetime may have been a Republican, General Eisenhower.  [There's no way he would ever have been a member of today's Republican party.]
Some good stuff was done during his administration--the national highway system being the most prominent.  The development of the polio vaccine got a lot of government support.  And in leaving, he warned us about the "military-industrial complex."

The Democratic presidents have been mostly Republican-Lites.   Better than real Republicans but just barely.  We can't get a real progressive like Senators Sanders and Warren nominated.  And frankly, it's killing me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Thinking that Stephen Miller has decided that it would be best for Trump to pretend that he always _knew _there would be a pandemic and that he _knew _that there was a terrible risk of 2m or so deaths.

So we find Trump talking about this figure - and just in last day or two talking of 1m deaths unless US citizens follow the isolation and separation recommendations rigorously - denying, lying and in denial over everything he has said about the pandemic over the last three months.

And so when there are no more than 200,000 deaths in the US, it doesn't take a genius to predict Trump will be claiming *his *'victory' over the coronavirus - claiming that it was only through *his *greatest ever leadership that a possible 2m deaths was reduced to 200,000.  And he'll ignore the observation that it was only through *his *self-obsession; *his *calamitous lack of leadership and honesty; indeed *his *dishonesty and spewing of misinformation, all through January through February and well into March, that the US suffered as it will.

How can we guess he'll do this.  Well of course we know he will.  He has already been pretending that he knew nothing of the disbanding in 2018 of the pandemic response team.  That wasn't him - oh no - that was his administration.  But surely the buck stops at the top?  Well no - not if it's negative or nasty (sic) news.

Oh if only Andrew Cuomo were standing as Dem Pres Candidate.


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## Colin L (Mar 31, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			.......  makes Bush look like FDR in comparison.
.
		
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Steady on, there.


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Thank you to whomever started this thread to give me a place to vent.
I see that orange buffoon on TV and my blood pressure goes through the roof.
I doubt that I've ever experienced this level of seething, viscerally felt hatred in my life before.
I though that I'd reached my limits with George W. Bush, and then this blob of disgusting excrement comes along and makes Bush look like FDR in comparison.

Somewhere in the depths of the Mariana Trench are whale droppings.
Various aquatic parasites feed off those droppings.
Donald J. Trump has to look upward to those parasites.
		
Click to expand...

You've really got to stop holding it in Y.O.B.  Unless you let your real feelings out you'll make yourself ill. 
I have to admit that is one of the most creative descriptions of DJT.  You are to be commended.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

Trump has his estimate of deaths up to 250,000 - cynically some might suggest to make any final number look better in comparison.  

And he has started comparing how well the US compares favourably in it's dealing with CV-19; the volume of PPE; and the numbers of ventilators - with the likes of the UK..just great...


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## bobmac (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump has his estimate of deaths up to 250,000 - cynically some might suggest to make any final number look better in comparison. 

And he has started comparing how well the US compares favourably in it's dealing with CV-19; the volume of PPE; and the numbers of ventilators - with the likes of the UK..just great...

Click to expand...

And?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2020)

South Ayrshire Council have reduced the artists impressions for the new Trump Statue down to three.
The commissioned statue will be the focal point of the new Culzean roundabout on the A77 Turnberry road on the completion of the Maybole bypass later this year.


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## Mudball (Apr 1, 2020)

So we have a new neighbour.. 
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/president-donald-trump-buys-chelsea-18018998


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## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So we have a new neighbour..
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/president-donald-trump-buys-chelsea-18018998

Click to expand...


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## Robster59 (Apr 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			South Ayrshire Council have reduced the artists impressions for the new Trump Statue down to three.
The commissioned statue will be the focal point of the new Culzean roundabout on the A77 Turnberry road on the completion of the Maybole bypass later this year.
		
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In fairness, how many variants of rear end with teeth can you have?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			And?
		
Click to expand...

..and?

And so he points at the UK and somehow feels that he can portray what UK is doing as a comparison against which to make what HE is doing look good.   Even if the comparison is disingenuous and invidious - Trump is painting what he sees as comparatively bad.  Thanks Donnie - what ever happened to the hoax?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			South Ayrshire Council have reduced the artists impressions for the new Trump Statue down to three.
The commissioned statue will be the focal point of the new Culzean roundabout on the A77 Turnberry road on the completion of the Maybole bypass later this year.
		
Click to expand...

I'd go for something that is like Billy Connolly's bicycle stand


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2020)

Lady Doon has just twigged it is an AF after spitting feathers about it for most of the day


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## bobmac (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and?

And so he points at the UK and somehow feels that he can portray what UK is doing as a comparison against which to make what HE is doing look good.   Even if the comparison is disingenuous and invidious - Trump is painting what he sees as comparatively bad.  Thanks Donnie - what ever happened to the hoax?
		
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The man is an idiot, everyone knows that. We don't need reminding every day.
And your depessing negativity is not helpful at the present time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The man is an idiot, everyone knows that. We don't need reminding every day.
And your depessing negativity is not helpful at the present time.
		
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It's just factual.  He is an idiot whose self-obsession and lying over coronavirus will most likely result in thousands of deaths - unnecessarily.  For anyone out there still a Trump fan there is little negative to complain about. 

For anyone who'd rather not get a feel for what's happening in the US according to Trump - well the usual advice applies - perhaps don't come here. 

And I'll note the title of this thread...never can it have been more apt - albeit in a different context.


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## bobmac (Apr 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The man is an idiot, everyone knows that. We don't need reminding every day.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's just factual.  He is an idiot
		
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I'm out.


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## Mudball (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and?

And so he points at the UK and somehow feels that he can portray what UK is doing as a comparison against which to make what HE is doing look good.   Even if the comparison is disingenuous and invidious - Trump is painting what he sees as comparatively bad.  Thanks Donnie - what ever happened to the hoax?
		
Click to expand...

1) You forget he is an idiot
2) 70% of his target audience think that US is the greatest country in the world.  
2) The same 70% have never heard of most countries in the world except - I-rak, Australia, London, Paris, Scotland, Ireland and Italy...   So Trump does not have many other countries to compare to anyways


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			1) You forget he is an idiot
2) 70% of his target audience think that US is the greatest country in the world. 
2) The same 70% have never heard of most countries in the world except - I-rak, Australia, London, Paris, Scotland, Ireland and Italy...   So Trump does not have many other countries to compare to anyways
		
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I laugh at the way that some American films highlight the city as well as the country.
ie Paris..France and London ...England.
I wonder how their audience would react to British films doing the same Washington...America.


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## Mudball (Apr 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I laugh at the way that some American films highlight the city as well as the country.
ie Paris..France and London ...England.
I wonder how their audience would react to British films doing the same *Washington*...America.
		
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Washington.. Did you mean state or city?


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## rosecott (Apr 1, 2020)

Not strictly Trump-related but gun shops in LA County, having been told to close as non-essential businesses, have now been told to re-open by a federal decision.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Washington.. Did you mean state or city?
		
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Or Tyne and Wear?


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## GreiginFife (Apr 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Washington.. Did you mean state or city?
		
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Lucky he didn't use Kansas. The Donald doesn't even know where that is.


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## Mudball (Apr 1, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Lucky he didn't use Kansas. The Donald doesn't even know where that is.
		
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He should ask Dorothy from  Wiz of Oz - though he may think she is an illegal immigrant from Australia. 

It is always funny when you meet people on American golf courses and you introduce yourself as 'from London'.. their next reaction is something along the lines .. _London, yes i want to / have been to St Andrews.. _


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2020)

From the main coronavirus thread



Ross61 said:



https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/02/politics/anthony-fauci-deborah-birx-coronavirus-trump/index.html

An interesting article about the battle to convince Trump to listen to the scientists rather than the economists about the Coronavirus threat.
		
Click to expand...

Note that now Trump has changed his tune about the way forward some GOP Govs are also changing their tune - see for example the astonishing chutzpah of the Governor of Georgia Brian Kemp...in what is a jaw-dropping claim that he made 2 days ago...the Joe and Mika clip is almost funny in their astonishment and despair at what Kemp said... and no idea how come Uncle Albert is doing the sign language on the steps...






Trump and his acolytes in the media and beyond are also currently very busy trying to rewrite history in a very Brave New World sort of way (not quoting from the book as such) but...

_To maintain order in Brave New World, the Resident Controller must have complete authority over more than just the present; he must also have influence over the past. In order to be able to achieve this, he must be able to rewrite history. This gives rise to one of the most famous quotation from Brave New World, “All history is bunk.”  _


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## jim8flog (Apr 4, 2020)

Seen on a face book page


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## rosecott (Apr 4, 2020)

Day by day he surpasses himself.

Today he is bragging about how he has repatriated 40,000 Americans from many countries:

"Some of them I had to call the leaders of the country, most of whom I know, and once I did they snapped like you wouldn't believe"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

And yesterday - he who is PotUS adds the WHO to the list of those he is blaming for the coronavirus pandemic, telling the country through his daily briefing that the WHO knew about the virus pandemic many months before it became known - even although there is not a shred of evidence to support that assertion...

And that's all Trump does.  He makes unfounded assertions with the intention of misleading his core vote into believing that he has done a great job - that the one reason that the USA is not going to suffer 2.2m deaths are the great and decisive steps that he, Trump alone, implemented.   Who is to blame?  The Obama Administration, the Chinese, the WHO - the list grows.

When in fact he chose to be in denial and made claim of it being a Dem hoax, whilst ignoring all of the warning from his own advisers and all the briefings he was being given - because if he showed any recognition of what he was being told - if he was to actually take them on board and act accordingly, then he could not blame the Democrats.  And that would hurt his re-election chances. 

And so - the delay due to his lack of action - that continues today as he refuses to mobilise Federal power to support the efforts of individual states or to apply country-wide containment/delay measures - it is that delay that will result in the deaths of many thousands of US citizens who may well not have died had he acted promptly as he was being urged.

Some might come to say that guy is should be accorded pariah status and done for crimes against humanity.

Instead...God help America.


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## IanM (Apr 8, 2020)

Trump is clearly nuts...then I see who the Dems are lining up against him.  What the....??? 

Crikey.  Get anyone...


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 8, 2020)

IanM said:



			Trump is clearly nuts...then I see who the Dems are lining up against him.  What the....???

Crikey.  Get anyone...
		
Click to expand...

I really hope he doesn't get in again in Nov. As in a post Corona Brexit world we really need someone who is not a narcissist who sees literally everything through the prism of him and his popularity in charge in the US


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## triple_bogey (Apr 8, 2020)

There really is something sinister going on with that guy. His country people are dropping like flies and all he wants to talk about is his elections. 

As far as I've seen, China had reported a cluster of cases on the 31st Dec and the WHO sent out a report to the world around mid Jan. China had shared the genetic sequence of Covid_19 also around the same time so other countries can start developing their own diagnostic test kits.
And when did the US and UK start taking this seriously? In March! SMH!

The idiot even dismantled the National Pandemic team in 2016 that Obama had set up after the Ebola and Swine flu outbreaks in previous years.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 8, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			There really is something sinister going on with that guy. H*is country people are dropping like flies and all he wants to talk about is his elections.*

As far as I've seen, China had reported a cluster of cases on the 31st Dec and the WHO sent out a report to the world around mid Jan. China had shared the genetic sequence of Covid_19 also around the same time so other countries can start developing their own diagnostic test kits.
And when did the US and UK start taking this seriously? In March! SMH!

The idiot even dismantled the National Pandemic team in 2016 that Obama had set up after the Ebola and Swine flu outbreaks in previous years.
		
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It's because he can't hold his rallies now so he takes any opportunities he can to promote himself.  Even if the subject being discussed is people dying.  Even when he was talking about Bojo he went rambling on about how he'd instructed US companies who of course 'the best', to offer their help, to make it seem like he was riding to the rescue.  Where as I would have thought the NHS had that one covered.  

He will literally do everything in his power to try and get the US voters to feel like things are back to normal by the time he starts campaigning for re-election, even if that means more people will die than should do. Think it's a coincidence that all the majors in the US have been rearranged for later this year where as we cancelled the Open till next year.  You watch which are the first sports leagues globally to start playing again and I'm more than confident it will be the US ones under severe pressure from the government


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Indeed - Trump's 5pm ET briefings are no more than replacements for his rallies...his reactions when a reporter asks him a pointed question are staggeringly childish...obviously not something he has to put up with in the rallies.  I tried watching Live on CNN his briefing yesterday.  I had to switch over as it was just too gruesome and desperate - when you consider that the guy you are watching is PotUS. 

From two days ago.  The reporter in blue is a Fox News reporter (so they are getting it also) - 'John' is one of the longest standing most senior and experienced WH correspondents.  Just wow!


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2020)

See he's started the blame game now, the WHO are the bad guys today. Expect a torrent of this in the next few weeks.


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## Mudball (Apr 9, 2020)

Don’t bite his hand.. he also said that the U.K. has reached out to him and he is sending 200 ventilators


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Don’t bite his hand.. he also said that the U.K. has reached out to him and he is sending 200 ventilators
		
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That's what he has said - not sure I've heard it confirmed by Hancock...

He says a lot of stuff to try and convince his support (not that they take much convincing) that the pleas coming from state governors for more ventilators and PPE are exaggerated; that they _so _don't actually need more ventilators he can provide some to the UK.

Now it may well be that we have reached out (really?) and received 200 ventilators from Federal stock - but I would not bet my house on it.

In any case - even if it is true should we actually be taking them when we can hear the pleas of US State Governors?  Then again - were we to refuse any offer we might have received that might well upset Trump as it undermines his tactics - and we don't want to upset Trump now do we...

With Trump _everything _is political; about himself and his re-election.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

Re his blaming of the WHO, bear in mind WHO's original recommendation was global travel shouldn't be stopped. When Trump barred flights from China and mainland Europe, WHO said that was the wrong approach. Their recommendation was for testing at the point of entry. Great if the traveller is showing symptoms but if they're asymptomatic, i.e. in this case they haven't got a fever, carriers are being let in.

I don't know the gist of Trump's complaint as I switch over when he comes on. He's a disgusting individual, and nothing coming out of his mouth interests me.


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## Mudball (Apr 9, 2020)

Whatever you say...  He will still win..  He knows how to grab... his votes


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## spongebob59 (Apr 9, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248301448397455361


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's what he has said - not sure I've heard it confirmed by Hancock...

He says a lot of stuff to try and convince his support (not that they take much convincing) that the pleas coming from state governors for more ventilators and PPE are exaggerated; that they _so _don't actually need more ventilators he can provide some to the UK.

Now it may well be that we have reached out (really?) and received 200 ventilators from Federal stock - but I would not bet my house on it.

In any case - *even if it is true should we actually be taking them when we can hear the pleas of US State Governors? * Then again - were we to refuse any offer we might have received that might well upset Trump as it undermines his tactics - and we don't want to upset Trump now do we...

With Trump _everything _is political; about himself and his re-election.
		
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That's a bit of a lose/lose situation for the government. If we decide not to take them so that they can be distributed in America they'd get slated for not helping our own people. If they take them they'd get slated from another side for taking them from a country that desperately needs them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's a bit of a lose/lose situation for the government. If we decide not to take them so that they can be distributed in America they'd get slated for not helping our own people. If they take them they'd get slated from another side for taking them from a country that desperately needs them.
		
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Yup - but Trumps tactics are to convince his core vote that the governors are exaggerating. Just as he played the ‘dem hoax’ card at the outset and Fox contributors supported that by claiming coronavirus was ‘no big deal’.

And so now we find Trump, his cronies and Fox News trying to rewrite history, but their words of Jan and Feb are there for all to hear no matter how they might try and reinterpret them - try and spin what they said into the opposite viewpoint.  See such as Sean Hannity trying to tell his viewers that he NEVER underplayed or dismissed the risk presented by the Coronavirus is ... well ...


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## rosecott (Apr 13, 2020)

Can't make up my mind as to whether this is genuine or tricked up.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10216449420454417


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 13, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Can't make up my mind as to whether this is genuine or tricked up.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10216449420454417



Click to expand...

I haven’t seen it on any of the usual reliable public or cable channels so thinking it is probably a spoof.  Problem is that Trump is so shameless and absurd that it could easily be true...but I don’t think it is.


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## Robster59 (Apr 14, 2020)

Megalomaniac Alert! 
Coronavirus: Trump claims 'total' authority to lift lockdown

I've always said that Trump is someone who was a spoilt brat of a kid and kept that attitude once he 'grew up' (although I'm not sure whether he ever has mentally). 
An interesting review of him here:
Coronavirus: Trump berates media at jaw-dropping briefing

The man is a mixture of Canute and Ostrich mentality.  In the past he has been able to bluff his way around situations with rhetoric, lies and false figures.  A virus doesn't care what you say and he's now in a place where he doesn't know what to do so he's just carrying on with his usual bombastic ways.  If the Americans re-elect him then they REALLY only have themselves to blame.


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## sussexhacker (Apr 14, 2020)

Why is there not a massive campaign by the public or media in the US against this joke of a human being and how does he keep his voters on his side through all this?

I’m not exactly a fan of bozza but the manor he’s spoken to the country so far has been exceptional in my opinion and then you watch trump in similar press conferences with media questions and he just goes after their valid questions with horrid personal attacks telling highly thought of journalists that they are third rate reporters and they won’t make it!!

Why don’t the media stand up to him?


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## bobmac (Apr 14, 2020)

More importantly, why watch him?
He's Americas problem, not ours.
When he comes on the tv, do your sanity and your blood pressure a favour and just turm him off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Why is there not a massive campaign by the public or media in the US against this joke of a human being and how does he keep his voters on his side through all this?

I’m not exactly a fan of bozza but the manor he’s spoken to the country so far has been exceptional in my opinion and then you watch trump in similar press conferences with media questions and he just goes after their valid questions with horrid personal attacks telling highly thought of journalists that they are third rate reporters and they won’t make it!!

Why don’t the media stand up to him?
		
Click to expand...

The differences between johnson and trump and how they perceive this are I think massive.  Johnson absolutely does seem to defer to the experts - and absolutely does in the briefings; when Trump was asked last week about the metrics he’d use to assess things round relaxation of certain measures he tapped the side of his head - here’s my metrics...he’ll be dumping Fauci shortly - just watch.  God Help America...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			More importantly, why watch him?
He's Americas problem, not ours.
When he comes on the tv, do your sanity and your blood pressure a favour and just turm him off.
		
Click to expand...

America is our best friend now and will be more so in the future remember. Always good to keep a watchful eye on what your best friend is up to if you are going to be depending on him.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			More importantly, why watch him?
He's Americas problem, not ours.
When he comes on the tv, do your sanity and your blood pressure a favour and just turm him off.
		
Click to expand...

A very insular view Bob. 
This is a man wielding inexorable power and influence across the globe from the seat of power in the world's most powerful country. 

He has the ability to seriously affect other nation's economy at the flick of a pen stroke. Just look at the trade wars that he started through tariffs. 

Whilst it's easy to say he is only the USA's problem, it's also not entirely true.


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## Foxholer (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



*More importantly, why watch him?
He's Americas problem, not ours.*
When he comes on the tv, do your sanity and your blood pressure a favour and just turm him off.
		
Click to expand...

As the leader of the world's most powerful nation, he's the world's problem, not just America's!


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

I do love the way he treats the media.  imagine his response to being asked the same stupid questions again and again by our media 😂


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## GreiginFife (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			I do love the way he treats the media.  imagine his response to being asked the same stupid questions again and again by our media 😂
		
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It's clear the way he treats the media is nothing more than a smokescreen. Look at how he deflects a legitimate question by using personal attacks on the reporter asking the question, never actually answers the question asked. 
It's childish and pathetic for a man elected to run a country to behave in this manner.


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## User20204 (Apr 14, 2020)

I find it very entertaining.


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## Foxholer (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			I do love the way he treats the media.  imagine his response to being asked the same stupid questions again and again by our media 😂
		
Click to expand...

Except the questions he's being asked are definitely NOT stupid! And they are repeatedly asked because he doesn't answer them - but covers that fact by abusing the questioner!

He's demonstrating the wisdom of the authors of the US Constitution (who restricted the President's possible dictatorial power), though he's still trying to bully dissenting states rather than negotiating with them. He treats his press conferences as an opportunity to screen re-election propaganda, which networks, fortunately, wisely exclude. Any criticism or awkward question is responded to with a personal attack avoiding answering it. Every real snippet of real info is surrounded in glorification as being 'the best'! 

He reminds me of another 'great' handler of the Press - the (NZ born) Premier of Queensland, Joh Bjelke-Petersen, who described press conferences as 'feeding the chooks'!

Have to admire the way he does it though!!


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## sussexhacker (Apr 14, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Except the questions he's being asked are definitely NOT stupid! And they are repeatedly asked because he doesn't answer them - but covers that fact by abusing the questioner!

He's demonstrating the wisdom of the authors of the US Constitution (who restricted the President's possible dictatorial power), though he's still trying to bully dissenting states rather than negotiating with them. He treats his press conferences as an opportunity to screen re-election propaganda, which networks, fortunately, wisely exclude. Any criticism or awkward question is responded to with a personal attack avoiding answering it. Every real snippet of real info is surrounded in glorification as being 'the best'!

He reminds me of another 'great' handler of the Press - the (NZ born) Premier of Queensland, Joh Bjelke-Petersen, who described press conferences as 'feeding the chooks'!

Have to admire the way he does it though!!
		
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We have the best testing in the world, really, believe me. It’s really the best testing in the world anyone will tell you

How can he say other countries are going to him asking how they’ve gotten so good at testing? 
I thought Germany and South Korea were widely believed to be the best at testing?

I’ve seen some articles from US media that report he is so keen to open the US and let everyone out freely is because 7 of his most profitable businesses are closed and he is losing millions a week from the closure.


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## Captainron (Apr 14, 2020)

I’ve always thought that this would eventually come down to money because not matter what anyone thinks personally, money does really make the world go round. 

This is what I think he is thinking.

It has come to a point in his mind where lives are worth less than the economy. Plain and simple. He is thinking, why keep 98% of people down for the 2%. The maths doesn’t add up to him. 

The economy is tanking. People can’t work so they can’t earn. Businesses are losing out big time. Businesses that employ millions of people who need somewhere to work to live once the whole pandemic thing is over. 

If the lockdown stays on then the longer term impact is worse than the short term impact. Yes, people will die while the virus works its way through but at least the massive majority will get back to normal. 

Keep the lockdown on and in a few months there will be civil unrest because no one will gave money for food, no one will have a job to go to. 

Take the tough choice now and get the county moving again and they will thank me for it later because there will still be a country


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## Mudball (Apr 14, 2020)

The reality is that he will get re-elected. Keeping his ignoramus ways to a side, don’t forget the other half of the equation - his supporters. He is their Moses and he can part water for them. They believe his rhetoric that he made no mistake and it was all a democrat hoax and a Chinese/immigrant  virus. Americans have hyper local news. They care of their community and at best what’s happening in their state. if you ask someone in the mid-west of what is happening on the coasts, they will struggle to get past the media narrative. 

Speaking of Democrats, how bad have they got to get to let a Trump re-election. They have Biden. He is a bit of a Corbyn mode. Now if they could galvanise an Andrew Cuomo or a Gavin Newsom rather than a Biden, then we could see a different result.


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## sussexhacker (Apr 14, 2020)

Captainron said:



			I’ve always thought that this would eventually come down to money because not matter what anyone thinks personally, money does really make the world go round.

This is what I think he is thinking.

It has come to a point in his mind where lives are worth less than the economy. Plain and simple. He is thinking, why keep 98% of people down for the 2%. The maths doesn’t add up to him.

The economy is tanking. People can’t work so they can’t earn. Businesses are losing out big time. Businesses that employ millions of people who need somewhere to work to live once the whole pandemic thing is over.

If the lockdown stays on then the longer term impact is worse than the short term impact. Yes, people will die while the virus works its way through but at least the massive majority will get back to normal.

Keep the lockdown on and in a few months there will be civil unrest because no one will gave money for food, no one will have a job to go to.

Take the tough choice now and get the county moving again and they will thank me for it later because there will still be a country
		
Click to expand...

Would you be comfortable making the order that would in most estimates see over 2 million people die just so the economy can recover quicker?


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## Captainron (Apr 14, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			Would you be comfortable making the order that would in most estimates see over 2 million people die just so the economy can recover quicker?
		
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I’m not comfortable with it. I’m just writing down what I believe he is thinking.


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## rosecott (Apr 14, 2020)

Pretty sure this one is genuine:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=651523978995432


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## User62651 (Apr 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The reality is that he will get re-elected. Keeping his ignoramus ways to a side, don’t forget the other half of the equation - his supporters. He is their Moses and he can part water for them. They believe his rhetoric that he made no mistake and it was all a democrat hoax and a Chinese/immigrant  virus. Americans have hyper local news. They care of their community and at best what’s happening in their state. if you ask someone in the mid-west of what is happening on the coasts, they will struggle to get past the media narrative.

Speaking of Democrats, how bad have they got to get to let a Trump re-election. They have Biden. He is a bit of a Corbyn mode. Now if they could galvanise an Andrew Cuomo or a Gavin Newsom rather than a Biden, then we could see a different result.
		
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Seems true, any Twitter argument about him has as many blindly defending him as attacking him.
Of the Democrats Biden seems a bit toothless to me, rather than earning a shot at The White House, he's just being given it cos he was VP to Obama. Sanders was too much of a firebrand. Others not standouts.
Used to seeing Trump talk daft but that press briefing was a bit shocking.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Pretty sure this one is genuine:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=651523978995432



Click to expand...

100% genuine.

Every word from the PotUS and every Fox commentator.  Which is why the Murdoch's are getting more than a bit nervous as they face potentially massive litigation from relatives of those who believed what they were told by Fox - but then their relative died as a result of believing it was a hoax and not taking any precautions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems true, any Twitter argument about him has as many blindly defending him as attacking him.
Of the Democrats Biden seems a bit toothless to me, rather than earning a shot at The White House, he's just being given it cos he was VP to Obama. Sanders was too much of a firebrand. Others not standouts.
Used to seeing Trump talk daft but that press briefing was a bit shocking.

Click to expand...

The most recent one (in which he effectively declared himself King of America) is simply an evolution from all previous ones.

I like Don Lemon's take on it all.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/poli...g-coronavirus-dead-back-don-lemon-ctn-vpx.cnn


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## Foxholer (Apr 14, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			...
I thought Germany and South Korea were widely believed to be the best at testing?
...
		
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Norway and Switzerland have highest test/1m of population (23, 22k resp) of 'major' countries. Italy, (understandable), Portugal and Austria  around 17K. Germany almost 16K. US just under 9K and UK about 5.5K. So Trump spouting twaddle - as ever!

Low German deaths/1M probably down to their pragmatic tendency to 'do what their govt decrees'. Interesting looking at figures for Norway,Denmark and Sweden...Deaths per !m pop seem almost exactly inverse of Test Rate per 1m - ie. Norway 25 23.4k/m; Denmark 49 12.7k/m; Sweden 91 5.4k/m


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## bobmac (Apr 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whilst it's easy to say he is only the USA's problem, it's also not entirely true.
		
Click to expand...

I meant as far as the election is concerned.
We have no vote in November and that's all he's interested in, even if you're dying.
If everyone wants to watch this idiot lie to the American people for the next 7 months, good luck to them. I'll be focused on what's happening in the UK


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## Robster59 (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I meant as far as the election is concerned.
We have no vote in November and that's all he's interested in, even if you're dying.
If everyone wants to watch this idiot lie to the American people for the next 7 months, good luck to them. I'll be focused on what's happening in the UK
		
Click to expand...

The problem is that there are also people in the UK who also believe the rubbish he comes out with.  He is the leader of the most powerful nation in the world and what happens there has impact elsewhere.


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## cliveb (Apr 14, 2020)

There's a known psychiatric personality disorder called "Grandiose Narcissism". If you check the symptoms, Trump is a classic example.

There are also laws in quite a few US states that require the authorities to detain people in hospital ("involuntary commitment") who are mentally unstable and are a danger to themselves or others (equivalent to sectioning in the UK).

Need I say more?


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## User20204 (Apr 14, 2020)

Four more years, four more years, four more years.


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

you just know what's going to happen. Americans will lose more lives than any other country.  at the end of it all americans will say "we kicked coronavirus's butt. we won USA, USA , USA "
probably also make a movie about how they single handedly saved the world from the virus


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## Mudball (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			you just know what's going to happen. Americans will lose more lives than any other country.  at the end of it all americans will say "we kicked coronavirus's butt. we won USA, USA , USA "
probably also *make a movie about how they single handedly saved the world from the virus*

Click to expand...

Contagion-2..    will end with the last virus being eliminated on 4th of July...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I meant as far as the election is concerned.
We have no vote in November and that's all he's interested in, even if you're dying.
If everyone wants to watch this idiot lie to the American people for the next 7 months, good luck to them. I'll be focused on what's happening in the UK
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately he's quite possibly going to be the idiot that we are told will be our bestest friend overseas post 1st January 2021.  Maybe he will be - good to know if he's to be trusted.  The government was saying that they will make a call on the other important matter sometime early July - and they are going to have to do that with 'the idiot' still in office.  Good luck to us.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 15, 2020)

He's found his fall guy, come on down the WHO you're this crisis lucky winner.


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## sussexhacker (Apr 15, 2020)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....e-printed-on-covid-19-stimulus-cheques-report

Just when you thought he couldn’t get any more narcissistic he has delayed the stimulus cheques being sent to those who urgently need them so that his name can be added on to them


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2020)

And in case we were wondering why bother with what Trump is doing and saying in the US...well yesterday he stopped funding of the WHO with immediate effect - and (as I understand it) the US provides 25% of WHO funding.

He justifies this on the basis of assertions he makes for which he, or anyone, has little or no evidence, but which he hopes will divert attention from his own failings with his eyes on November.  

By all means look at the actions, information and recommendations provided the the WHO late December 2019 and early 2020 (the WHO learning of the virus at the very end of December 2019 then building their understanding of it the early weeks of Jan 2020) when the pandemic is under control globally.  But don't do this and cut their funding deep in the grimness of the pandemic.

By his actions Trump undermines the good that the WHO, and all who work for it, aim to do for all - the world over, and displays his cynical disregard for anything or anyone except himself. Next up?  Fauci.


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## Cherry13 (Apr 15, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....e-printed-on-covid-19-stimulus-cheques-report

Just when you thought he couldn’t get any more narcissistic he has delayed the stimulus cheques being sent to those who urgently need them so that his name can be added on to them
		
Click to expand...

I really despise the cretin, however they make it soooo easy for his typical response, expect a tweet or fox rebuttal containing... Amazon Post, (lame stream media) Unnamed Sources (name the source), a reference to the cheques Obama issued or some other president which had there name on.  

it's almost like they deliberately make it too easy for him, so he can quote them in his reply.  hmmm, what could they possibly gain from a twitter spat with the President.


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## yandabrown (Apr 15, 2020)




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## triple_bogey (Apr 15, 2020)




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## Crazyface (Apr 15, 2020)

What if he's right??


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## GreiginFife (Apr 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			What if he's right??
		
Click to expand...

He is right. That is leadership. It's the quality of a good leader that they are responsible no matter good or bad. 
Trump never takes responsibility for the bad, only the good. The man is an idiot. 

If something goes right, he's all over it. If it's even remotely negative it's either "fake news" or someone else's fault.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			What if he's right??
		
Click to expand...

Right about the W.H.O taking the word of China and China not being transparent with the world and the W.H.O?  Now I must remind myself of what Trump tweeted on *24th January*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1220818115354923009


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2020)

Mind you Trump does sometimes (sometimes?) show himself up so incredibly needlessly.  Not quite sure he's actually read the book or seen the film - otherwise he'd know the hero... I think he believes that the Governors are the mutineers and that he's the captain...why the mutiny and what happened to the captain 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250075668282576898


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## triple_bogey (Apr 15, 2020)

Him and his administration really don't have a clue sometimes. Forever will be remembered is the:

"I know South Korea better than anybody,"  after boasting he knows the population of Seoul is 38 million.  (quick Google search reveals 38m is the elevation).


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## Robster59 (Apr 16, 2020)

Well, he's at it again.  This will be him getting his information from his head again.  There must be lots of information in there as there's certainly no brain.
God help America if he continues in this vein.
Coronavirus: Trump says peak is passed and US to reopen soon


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			Him and his administration really don't have a clue sometimes. Forever will be remembered is the:

"I know South Korea better than anybody,"  after boasting he knows the population of Seoul is 38 million.  (quick Google search reveals 38m is the elevation).
		
Click to expand...

That's a cracker!!   Mind you he might equally have misread and misunderstood the area of the country being 38,622.57 as the pop - but no - 38m elevation of Seoul - honest to God...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Well, he's at it again.  This will be him getting his information from his head again.  There must be lots of information in there as there's certainly no brain.
God help America if he continues in this vein.
Coronavirus: Trump says peak is passed and US to reopen soon

Click to expand...

We were on a 'friends call' yesterday evening and one of us lives in New York State.  She stated that her understanding was that things were going to be relaxed on 1st May.  We suggested that from what we were hearing - even from Andrew Cuomo - that that wasn't going to be the case.  That said - she was saying that many folks - even in New York state - were out over Easter Weekend and not bothering that much whatsoever with social separation - and that rather shocked us.


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## Robster59 (Apr 16, 2020)

Looking at the article below, I think that America has a long way to go. 
Coronavirus: Michigan protesters defy stay-at-home order
They have a number of issues we don't have compared to us.  No healthcare system, unco-ordinated response between the States, infighting between the two big parties, the belief that freedom is more important than anything else (although I don't think getting your roots done is really top priority).  Oh yes, and a lunatic for a President.
While the wrong messages come from the top, and there is no single message across the board, I can see this going on for a while.  And at the moment, Trump is really underplaying this purely for his own political reasons, and stuff the man in the street.

One of their favourite sayings is "God Bless America!".  At the moment I think it should be "God Help America!".


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## Ross61 (Apr 16, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Looking at the article below, I think that America has a long way to go.
Coronavirus: Michigan protesters defy stay-at-home order
They have a number of issues we don't have compared to us.  No healthcare system, unco-ordinated response between the States, infighting between the two big parties, the belief that freedom is more important than anything else (although I don't think getting your roots done is really top priority).  Oh yes, and a lunatic for a President.
While the wrong messages come from the top, and there is no single message across the board, I can see this going on for a while.  And at the moment, Trump is really underplaying this purely for his own political reasons, and stuff the man in the street.

One of their favourite sayings is "God Bless America!".  At the moment I think it should be "God Help America!".
		
Click to expand...

Also scary is the masses have millions of guns. If those protesters get more angry there could be huge problems


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## hovis (Apr 16, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Also scary is the masses have millions of guns. If those protesters get more angry there could be huge problems
		
Click to expand...

nah, government have reaper drones😏


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Looking at the article below, I think that America has a long way to go.
Coronavirus: Michigan protesters defy stay-at-home order
They have a number of issues we don't have compared to us.  No healthcare system, unco-ordinated response between the States, infighting between the two big parties, the belief that freedom is more important than anything else (although I don't think getting your roots done is really top priority).  Oh yes, and a lunatic for a President.
While the wrong messages come from the top, and there is no single message across the board, I can see this going on for a while.  And at the moment, Trump is really underplaying this purely for his own political reasons, and stuff the man in the street.

One of their favourite sayings is "God Bless America!".  At the moment I think it should be "God Help America!".
		
Click to expand...

Also heard on MSNBC/CNN yesterday how FEMA are pouncing and seizing orders of PPE that individual states and hospitals are sourcing by themselves - as the President has been telling them to do.

He then distributes the PPE to the states who have a GoP Governor and those that say nice things about him (yes really...), and of course boasts about how marvelous HE is doing in providing PPE to the states that need it.  Why is he doing this?  Well he has pretty much completely depleted the Federal stock by distributing it, almost as largesse, to those states and governors he favours.  Corrupt behaviour? - hmmm.

As a result states and hospitals are starting to conceal when they have sourced PPE for themselves, and are keeping quiet about flights bringing in PPE from overseas - so not broadcasting where and when the flights are arriving.  Just staggering.


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## sussexhacker (Apr 17, 2020)

Can’t sleep so watching trumps press briefing live and despite knowing what a massive knob the bloke was previously I can’t believe the narcissism

No one would have done a better job than me and the media are spreading false stories 

No other country can match what we’re doing and the capabilities we have 

We’re over the peak already and we’re going to be below 60,000 deaths


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## Mudball (Apr 19, 2020)

Worth a quick read 
https://www.redlakenationnews.com/s...axN85O4K80wlHtamv6nX3vgHc-Iz6JtH0HzI5YI4W0vqM


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## Kellfire (Apr 20, 2020)

He’s openly encouraged citizens to rebel against Covid lockdowns in democratic states ahead of election. He hasn’t done the same in republican states. 

He’s literally sacrificing lives for votes. 

He’d be impeached if the Republicans cared for lives over power.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Well...Piers Morgan burning his bridges with Trump?  He's not that complementary about our PM either.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			He’s openly encouraged citizens to rebel against Covid lockdowns in democratic states ahead of election. He hasn’t done the same in republican states.

He’s literally sacrificing lives for votes.

He’d be impeached if the Republicans cared for lives over power.
		
Click to expand...

His LIBERATE tweets are clear as day incitement to violence and and threatening and intimidation of the Governors of these states.  Even given a level of complacency around the utter nonsense, misinformation and downright lies Trump has spouted these last 4 years - many are wondering what the h***...


----------



## pokerjoke (Apr 20, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Also scary is the masses have millions of guns. If those protesters get more angry there could be huge problems
		
Click to expand...

Scary yes but unfortunately none can get near this moron


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well...Piers Morgan burning his bridges with Trump?  He's not that complementary about our PM either.







Click to expand...

What's actually gong in this world? Piers Morgan is the voice or reason...…………..has it been overdubbed?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252076188362817536
🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What's actually gong in this world? Piers Morgan is the voice or reason...…………..has it been overdubbed? 

Click to expand...

Scathing about Trump - less so about Johnson and Co - but nonetheless not impressed.  The world has gone bonkers...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252076188362817536
🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Bizarrely - Tiananmen Square and a Chinese student standing in front of a Chinese Army tank comes to mind


----------



## User20204 (Apr 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252076188362817536
🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
		
Click to expand...


That was just a rabble, couldn't hear what it was about though what is clear is the lack of education amongst many of the American public which is quite entertaining.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

The big problem is that Trump is completely supportive of them - and claiming they are all well behaved and maintaining social distance. Yeh right.  

i hear this morning that some states are starting to let such as some shops and gyms to reopen.  Ah well. Maybe the governors of these states know something about transmission of infectious diseases that the rest of the governors don’t.  Or maybe they just expect Trump and FEMA to come to their rescue if it goes wrong.


----------



## North Mimms (Apr 21, 2020)

Watching his briefings is surreal. 
He's either got some significant degree of dementia or he's over medicated.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			Watching his briefings is surreal.
He's either got some significant degree of dementia or he's over medicated.
		
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I suspect that they are almost unwatchable unless you are part of his core 32%.  He certainly knows how to keep that core on board...even although much if not most of what he spouts is simply not true or is intended to divert criticism and attention from him to anyone or anywhere else.  And all because there are 198 days to go.  That said the polls suggest a fair degree of unrest among those who voted for him last time round and not in the 32.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

And so day after day he goes on and on about himself and blaming everyone but himself - and though he never mentioned it yesterday, overnight he tweets that he is going to put a temporary hold on all immigration into the USA.

Well - OK - if that is essential to controlling and getting on top of the pandemic *within* the USA.  But of course it isn't - but what he does is try and put the focus *outside *of the USA rather than bother with much focus *inside *the USA other than inciting citizens (many armed) to 'rise up' and ignore the lockdown that he himself has advised - and never mind the risks that such 'liberation' runs.  Because those GREAT Americans are of course adhering to social distancing...and behaving just as they should (well in his eyes they are).

Meanwhile another lengthy tweet this morning celebrates his ratings for the briefing - how marvellous they are.  Isn't he just marvellous - no matter what the Fake News says.  It's completely insane but for the 32 its all they want to hear.


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

I really hope he wins in November.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I really hope he wins in November.
		
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I'm as certain as I can be that he will - unfortunately!

But, for once in a Blue Moon, Piers Morgan is spot on - at least about Trump! Whether Trump and/or the US Voters can see it, I'm rather dubious! Many just have too many peculiar attitudes and are too susceptible to 'advertising' - and Trump's diatribe - imo!


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'm as certain as I can be that he will - unfortunately!
!
		
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Another four years of this kind of entertainment, bring it on.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I'm as certain as I can be that he will - unfortunately!

But, for once in a Blue Moon, Piers Morgan is spot on - at least about Trump! Whether Trump and/or the US Voters can see it, I'm rather dubious! Many just have too many peculiar attitudes and are too susceptible to 'advertising' - and Trump's diatribe - imo!
		
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The pollsters are not so sure.  Absolutely his core 32% will vote for him no matter what - and no matter what disaster might befall the country if he forces states to relax restrictions too quickly.  The Aggregate Polls this month are consistently showing a 5-6% margin in favour of Biden...and there is significant lack of trust in what Trump says about the pandemic, and in his dealing with the pandemic.  Guess that's why he wants 'back to normal' asap.


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

I see he has instructed his navy to “shoot down” any Iranian gunboats that harass American ships. 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I see he has instructed his navy to “shoot down” any Iranian gunboats that harass American ships. 😂
		
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Maybe he stumbled across Studio Ghibli’s - Laputa: Castle in the Sky, and thought it was real...🤔


----------



## rosecott (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I see he has instructed his navy to “shoot down” any Iranian gunboats that harass American ships. 😂
		
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Is that from the same source as the 128 fake NHS accounts?


----------



## rosecott (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I see he has instructed his navy to “shoot down” any Iranian gunboats that harass American ships. 😂
		
Click to expand...

Oops, sorry, missed another Trump policy tweet, must pay more attention.


----------



## Imurg (Apr 22, 2020)

Apparently he's just said that he has "hundreds of Governors calling me"...

They've got 50........


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Apparently he's just said that he has "hundreds of Governors calling me"...

They've got 50........
		
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Be fair he's not exactly very good at quoting real facts. Just the fake ones


----------



## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

trump just said that apart from Germany America has delt with coronavirus better than any other country.  what am I missing? genuine question as they have lost more people than other country and per million to lives lost they are 10th.  

i dont usually watch the USA briefings but in my opinion America is screwed.


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## User20204 (Apr 23, 2020)

15th is my reading of that but as you say, certainly not 2nd.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2020)

Trump tells the world that he has put a stop on all immigration into the USA.  Except his Executive Order does nothing of the sort.  It imposes a degree of restriction on the issue of new Green Cards - for some applicants - and that's about it.  

But of course his core support will _believe _that he has put in place a complete ban on immigration.  And they will believe that no matter what anyone says.  Trump says he has put a 60 day ban on immigration - and so to the core there is no immigration for 60 days.


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## sussexhacker (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump tells the world that he has put a stop on all immigration into the USA.  Except his Executive Order does nothing of the sort.  It imposes a degree of restriction on the issue of new Green Cards - for some applicants - and that's about it. 

But of course his core support will _believe _that he has put in place a complete ban on immigration.  And they will believe that no matter what anyone says.  Trump says he has put a 60 day ban on immigration - and so to the core there is no immigration for 60 days.
		
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But how does he brainwash these people to believe every word that comes out of his mouth no matter how stupid


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## GreiginFife (Apr 23, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			But how does he brainwash these people to believe every word that comes out of his mouth no matter how stupid
		
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Stupid is and stupid does. Applies quite nicely to his core support.


----------



## IainP (Apr 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			trump just said that apart from Germany America has delt with coronavirus better than any other country.  what am I missing? genuine question as they have lost more people than other country and per million to lives lost they are 10th. 

i dont usually watch the USA briefings but in my opinion America is screwed.
		
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There's often an angle with stats. I've not done the sums but maybe USA currently looks favourable with deaths per confirmed cases.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2020)

IainP said:



			There's often an angle with stats. I've not done the sums but maybe USA currently looks favourable with deaths per confirmed cases.
		
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Nothing much to do with Trump though...and social separation or lockdown measures are decreed by state governors.

And he seems to have reverted to February-mode.  When all will be fine - as he trues to play down almost completely the chance of a second wave in the Fall.  In his briefing yesterday he was seeming to try a get his experts to agree with his 'hunch' - and they refused.  Trump said his CDC Director was misquoted -  his CDC Director - with Trump standing beside him - said he wasn't.  It was bizarre.  And love Joe Scarborough going gentle mental over it...


----------



## sussexhacker (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nothing much to do with Trump though...and social separation or lockdown measures are decreed by state governors.
		
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He’s trying to take them out of lockdown so he can’t claim any responsibility for any positive numbers


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## Italian outcast (Apr 23, 2020)

IainP said:



			There's often an angle with stats. I've not done the sums but maybe USA currently looks favourable with deaths per confirmed cases.
		
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It does seem highly disproportionate - But all the main urban centers have been hit hard - its that, and releasing lockdown there which will be the hardest part - and since urban centers drives the economy they have a huge balancing act to perform


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## Foxholer (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump tells the world that he has put a stop on all immigration into the USA.  Except his Executive Order does nothing of the sort.  It imposes a degree of restriction on the issue of new Green Cards - for some applicants - and that's about it.

But of course his core support will _believe _that he has put in place a complete ban on immigration.  And they will believe that no matter what anyone says.  Trump says he has put a 60 day ban on immigration - and so to the core there is no immigration for 60 days.
		
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I have to say...his actions in this regard are a perfect example of what he (and other politicians!) loves - a bold statement that his supporters will love, but actual effect is very small! Visa processing by State Department has apparently stopped anyway - and Consulates are closed! 
Used to be called 'soundbites' but 'Trump Tweets' is now more appropriate!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2020)

sussexhacker said:



			He’s trying to take them out of lockdown so he can’t claim any responsibility for any positive numbers
		
Click to expand...

Indeed he is - so for those he has tweeted LIBERATE about he claims that their governors have been too tough with their lockdown...

...and then yesterday we find poor Brian Kemp - the governor Georgia - who follows Trump's exhortations for governors to open up their states - for Kemp to find himself being criticised by Trump for doing just what Trump told him to do.

If it wasn't Trump you actually just couldn't make it up

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/us/trump-georgia-governor-kemp-coronavirus.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			It does seem highly disproportionate - But all the main urban centers have been hit hard - its that, and releasing lockdown there which will be the hardest part - and since urban centers drives the economy they have a huge balancing act to perform
		
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...when Trump isn't interested in the balancing act other than how it affects his poll numbers...

...and so he tries to play down the risk of a second wave in the Fall - because by doing so he can push for relaxation of lockdown measures (as there won't  be a second wave) and that relaxation will boost his numbers - especially if he can blame governors for making the decision to relax measures if things go wrong - even though he is pushing for them to be relaxed.

It is just as well that the UK won't have to bother about Trump and his deceitful and duplicitous double-dealing once we get through the worse of this. hmmm...


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2020)

Trump's latest idea to beat the virus; inject people with disinfectant.   How did this clown get elected?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/trump-coronavirus-treatment-disinfectant


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## spongebob59 (Apr 24, 2020)

Agreed , the guy is a dangerous idiot throwing out soundbites


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253482576699969537


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## Ross61 (Apr 24, 2020)

He says he is not a doctor but he has (pointing to his head) good you know what. I think his interpretation of “you know what” is very different to my interpretation!


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## rudebhoy (Apr 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Trump's latest idea to beat the virus; inject people with disinfectant.   How did this clown get elected?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/trump-coronavirus-treatment-disinfectant

Click to expand...

Absolutely incredible suggestion. The guy is an imbecile.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 24, 2020)

Apparently there are fears his latest suggestion will lead to an increase in domestos violence.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Absolutely incredible suggestion. The guy is an imbecile.
		
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Sorry, that's harsh on imbeciles.


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 24, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Agreed , the guy is a dangerous idiot throwing out soundbites


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253482576699969537

Click to expand...

The man is deluded, and a very dangerous idiot. Unfortunately, he has enough numpty followers that believe all he spouts, and some will no doubt try this......


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## sussexhacker (Apr 24, 2020)

I’d suggest he volunteers as a human trial for a thorough flushing through of his system with bleach


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## sussexhacker (Apr 24, 2020)

And now he’s having a pop at the governor of Georgia for re opening 
How does no one pull him up on this stuff? All you need to do is show him his own twitter page and then he can’t call you fake news


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## patricks148 (Apr 24, 2020)

i'm just suprised he didn't suggest, a silver bullet through the heart, a wooden steak or even Garlic to cure it


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## Robster59 (Apr 24, 2020)

I was speaking to my missus on this yesterday and she's in contact with her nephew in the US and on facebook he wrote "well he's still got my vote!".  
I mean, he's not a hick or hillbilly, he's pretty smart, but follows Trump in blind faith because he's a Repbublican.


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## patricks148 (Apr 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I was speaking to my missus on this yesterday and she's in contact with her nephew in the US and on facebook he wrote "well he's still got my vote!". 
I mean, he's not a hick or hillbilly, he's pretty smart, but follows Trump in blind faith because he's a Repbublican.
		
Click to expand...

the wife has a couple of Friends in Texas and both say the same, they also still subcribe to Cov19 still being Fake!!!!


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## bobmac (Apr 24, 2020)

Says it all


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the wife has a couple of Friends in Texas and both say the same, they also still subcribe to Cov19 still being Fake!!!!
		
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Have friends who are supporters too. Seems to be a thing out there, you follow the party regardless of how dumb the person leading it is. He clearly demonstrates time and again how idiotic he is, and then just calls it fake news when he gets called up on something he's actually said. Beggars belief.......


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 24, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Have friends who are supporters too. *Seems to be a thing out there, you follow the party regardless of how dumb the person leading it is*. He clearly demonstrates time and again how idiotic he is, and then just calls it fake news when he gets called up on something he's actually said. Beggars belief.......
		
Click to expand...

I'd argue the US is not unique in that way.  Politics is increasingly getting like supporting your football team.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Have friends who are supporters too. Seems to be a thing out there, you follow the party regardless of how dumb the person leading it is. He clearly demonstrates time and again how idiotic he is, and then just calls it fake news when he gets called up on something he's actually said. Beggars belief.......
		
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The 32pc will believe or ignore everything he says and vote for him. The only thing that matters is how the size of margin on top of the 32pc is varying.


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## larmen (Apr 24, 2020)

Why don’t just flush with formaldehyde and cut out a step?


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## sussexhacker (Apr 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Says it all







Click to expand...

This can’t be real 

I know they’ve got the stupid stereotype but some of these people are on another level


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Says it all







Click to expand...

"What are your sources?"

"Facebook & Twitter".

Sadly, they are real...   I don't know whether to laugh, cry or just give up.


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## Colin L (Apr 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Trump's latest idea to beat the virus; inject people with disinfectant.   How did this clown get elected?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/trump-coronavirus-treatment-disinfectant

Click to expand...

Well, he's obviously already had his Harpic injection as he's clean round the bend.


----------



## sussexhacker (Apr 24, 2020)




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## Kellfire (Apr 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Says it all







Click to expand...

Laughing out loud at this.


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## User20204 (Apr 24, 2020)

There's going to be a lot of Domestos abuse in America.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I was speaking to my missus on this yesterday and she's in contact with her nephew in the US and on facebook he wrote "well he's still got my vote!". 
I mean, he's not a hick or hillbilly, he's pretty smart, but follows Trump in blind faith because he's a Repbublican.
		
Click to expand...

I was speaking to my missus about it as well and she said it is pretty much the same as the UK.


----------



## Mudball (Apr 24, 2020)




----------



## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2020)

Trump has brought in a new head of the FBI..... Mr Muscle


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2020)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/44a9620a-3ac6-4ce3-86b3-f6c30caf8011


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2020)

In normal circumstances Amendment 25 would be being seriously talked about...but these are not normal circumstances...


----------



## Traminator (Apr 25, 2020)




----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 30219

Click to expand...

May be factually true, if not now then very soon, if some reports about the NK leader’s health are true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

And so Trump demonstrates that he is psychologically a coward as he leaves his latest briefing without any questions - because he knows he can’t be honest and apologise about misspeaking about injecting disinfectant and his aides know that he just can’t continue to lie as blatantly as he did earlier in the day about his speaking sarcastically about it in the briefing.  Just one big coward - as actually many bullies are.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The guys an absolute moron - perfect demonstration of Dunning-Kruger - and beyond hope.

Everyone that stands on that stage with him and lets him spout this BS unchallenged is complicit. Particularly the doctors and scientists who know how dangerous this is and say nothing.
		
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Perhaps they were in on the joke and knew he was being sarcastic


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## larmen (Apr 25, 2020)

Apparently a guy has now died after drinking aquarium cleaner. That’s one vote less for the Donald in November.

I am going to accept that following any of Trumps advise is a challenge to natural selection.


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2020)

larmen said:



			Apparently a guy has now died after drinking aquarium cleaner. That’s one vote less for the Donald in November.

I am going to accept that following any of Trumps advise is a challenge to natural selection.
		
Click to expand...

Darwin Award nominations now open.


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## cliveb (Apr 25, 2020)

larmen said:



			Apparently a guy has now died after drinking aquarium cleaner.
		
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Isn't that an old story, following Trump's endorsement of hydroxychloroquine?
Apparently some fish tank cleaning products have that as an ingredient, so this chap and his wife decided to take it.
This was a couple of weeks ago, though, and the last I saw of the story was that he died and his wife was seriously ill.


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## JamesR (Apr 25, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Trump's latest idea to beat the virus; inject people with disinfectant.   How did this clown get elected?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/trump-coronavirus-treatment-disinfectant

Click to expand...

Because he’s not the only moron in the good ol’ US of A

Think how retarded you’d have to be to vote for him (unless you’re rich and his policies do actually benefit you)!


----------



## larmen (Apr 25, 2020)

cliveb said:



			Isn't that an old story, following Trump's endorsement of hydroxychloroquine?
Apparently some fish tank cleaning products have that as an ingredient, so this chap and his wife decided to take it.
This was a couple of weeks ago, though, and the last I saw of the story was that he died and his wife was seriously ill.
		
Click to expand...

Might be, reading headlines like this is more than enough for me. Maybe it resurfaced again in between recent news.


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## USER1999 (Apr 25, 2020)

I read the bleach idea was from a guy who owns a bleach making company. He clearly can't sell enough of it for cleaning, so recommends it as a health tonic. Has his acolytes drinking 6 drops a day in their morning coffee. Cures any illness apparently.

Reminds me of Milo in catch 22, asking Yossarian to eat chocolate cotton.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2020)

And so no more Trump press briefings for the time being - Yesterday‘s cancelled.  Apparently the ’lame’ media were not being nice and complimentary enough with their questioning. Actually more likely that his advisors tell him the briefings are self-damaging.  Instead? Trump being interviewed each day by Hannity on Fox News is my rough guess...

I watched a bit of The Five on Fox News yesterday and they thought the fuss over disinfectant was funny...as nobody could have taken the president‘s sarcasm seriously...so the fuss was all a trump-hating media confection.  And these are the folks he watches and listens to...🤔


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## Mudball (Apr 26, 2020)

Can’t see the funny side here


----------



## cliveb (Apr 26, 2020)




----------



## ferenezejohn (Apr 26, 2020)

You don't get to be a billionaire and president of the USA by being stupid as many on here describe Trump.
I personally don't know what's worse,  the Bush's or Clinton's who think they have some god given right to run the country, or Trump.
If he does not win a second term it certainly won't be the Democrats that will be his downfall as he was delivering what he was voted in on.
Sure he was never a politician, but then look at the state of the world with many countries run by politician's.


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## hovis (Apr 26, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			You don't get to be a billionaire and president of the USA by being stupid as many on here describe Trump.
		
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you do when you was born a billionaire.  as for being president.......... seeing his supporters i wouldn't be showing off about it.


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## Hackers76 (Apr 26, 2020)

I don’t think he is stupid but he is capable of saying and doing some really stupid things. If he hadn’t sacked everyone who disagreed with him perhaps there would be someone left in the White House to properly advise him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			You don't get to be a billionaire and president of the USA by being stupid as many on here describe Trump.
I personally don't know what's worse,  the Bush's or Clinton's who think they have some god given right to run the country, or Trump.
If he does not win a second term it certainly won't be the Democrats that will be his downfall as he was delivering what he was voted in on.
Sure he was never a politician, but then look at the state of the world with many countries run by politician's.
		
Click to expand...

You honestly are not sure whether or not Trump is a worse and more dangerous president, and an all round worse person, that Clinton or either Bush?


----------



## gmc40 (Apr 26, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			You don't get to be a billionaire and president of the USA by being stupid as many on here describe Trump.
I personally don't know what's worse,  the Bush's or Clinton's who think they have some god given right to run the country, or Trump.
If he does not win a second term it certainly won't be the Democrats that will be his downfall as he was delivering what he was voted in on.
Sure he was never a politician, but then look at the state of the world with many countries run by politician's.
		
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What has he delivered?


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			you do when you was born a billionaire.  as for being president.......... seeing his supporters i wouldn't be showing off about it.
		
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and hasn't he lost quite a lot of what he inherited?


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2020)

Hackers76 said:



			I don’t think he is stupid but he is capable of saying and doing some really stupid things. If he hadn’t sacked everyone who disagreed with him perhaps there would be someone left in the White House to properly advise him.
		
Click to expand...

Which, to me, shows EXACTLY why he really IS STUPID!


----------



## ferenezejohn (Apr 27, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			What has he delivered?
		
Click to expand...

The economy and employment were booming before Corona.
That's exactly what he said he'd do.
As I said in my original post I don't know who's worse.
One thing I do like about Trump is he is aware of the threat China poses to the West.


----------



## triple_bogey (Apr 27, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254146549627490304
NSFW:
www.twitter.com/i/status/1254347593284452352


----------



## JamesR (Apr 27, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			You don't get to be a billionaire and president of the USA by being stupid as many on here describe Trump.
I personally don't know what's worse,  the Bush's or Clinton's who think they have some god given right to run the country, or Trump.
If he does not win a second term it certainly won't be the Democrats that will be his downfall as he was delivering what he was voted in on.
Sure he was never a politician, but then look at the state of the world with many countries run by politician's.
		
Click to expand...

The US economy was thriving after Clinton, Bush wasted it on war.

Trump inherited a fortune, he didn’t make one himself.
He even had a casino go bust, which is incredible since the odds always help the house win. 
He couldn’t run a piss up in a whore house.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 27, 2020)

JamesR said:



			The US economy was thriving after Clinton, Bush wasted it on war.

Trump inherited a fortune, he didn’t make one himself.
He even had a casino go bust, which is incredible since the odds always help the house win. 
He couldn’t run a piss up in a whore house.
		
Click to expand...

He was running the empire long before his father passed away.
Are you serious about your last line, obviously you know nothing about him or it's just pure hatred.
I'm not a fan of some of what he does but as I said he is far from stupid.


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## JamesR (Apr 27, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			He was running the empire long before his father passed away.
Are you serious about your last line, obviously you know nothing about him or it's just pure hatred.
I'm not a fan of some of what he does but as I said he is far from stupid.
		
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I don’t hate him, but I do think he’s a prick!
He’s the only world leader stupid enough to publicly discuss injecting bleach, he’s incapable of reading in public from a script, and he’s not managed to help anyone but himself and his acolytes.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You honestly are not sure whether or not Trump is a worse and more dangerous president, and an all round worse person, that Clinton or either Bush?
		
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When you look at the aftermath of Bush's Iraq invasion, and a wee delve into the Clinton Foundation.
Yes I'm not sure.


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## gmc40 (Apr 27, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			The economy and employment were booming before Corona.
That's exactly what he said he'd do.
As I said in my original post I don't know who's worse.
One thing I do like about Trump is he is aware of the threat China poses to the West.
		
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Did he deliver that or inherit it?

What else has he delivered? He promised a lot more than what you refer to above?

Wasn’t he praising China a few weeks back? What about Russia or North Korea and the threat they pose?


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## gmc40 (Apr 27, 2020)

*This is good if not seen before. *


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			The economy and employment were booming before Corona.
That's exactly what he said he'd do.
As I said in my original post I don't know who's worse.
One thing I do like about Trump is he is aware of the threat China poses to the West.
		
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Prior to the "lockdown" the US economy was not performing any better than it had done for years.

Which of his election promises has he actually delivered on?

From this side of the Atlantic I can't see any.
And as for his business success prior to becoming President,  well as someone else said it's relatively easy to become  a billionaire when you have his inherited wealth.


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## Traminator (Apr 27, 2020)

cliveb said:



			Isn't that an old story, following Trump's endorsement of hydroxychloroquine?
Apparently some fish tank cleaning products have that as an ingredient, so this chap and his wife decided to take it.
This was a couple of weeks ago, though, and the last I saw of the story was that he died and his wife was seriously ill.
		
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They've interviewed the wife now to find out what happened. 

She said she has the memory of a goldfish and doesn't remember.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 27, 2020)

He inherited a mess that's how he got in.
What about, Russia N. Korea you forgot Iran.
Countries are now waking up to the threat of China buying up huge parts of their industries.
Even more so now with shares dropping sadly it takes something like this to waken them up.


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## patricks148 (Apr 27, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Did he deliver that or inherit it?

What else has he delivered? He promised a lot more than what you refer to above?

*Wasn’t he praising China a few weeks back*? What about Russia or North Korea and the threat they pose?
		
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he sure was


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 27, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Prior to the "lockdown" the US economy was not performing any better than it had done for years.

Which of his election promises has he actually delivered on?

From this side of the Atlantic I can't see any.
And as for his business success prior to becoming President,  well as someone else said it's relatively easy to become  a billionaire when you have his inherited wealth.
		
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The US economy was performing much better as was employment.
He was running the family businesses when he inherited them.
Haters will always be haters as that's the easy way.


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## patricks148 (Apr 27, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



*He inherited a mess that's how he got in*.
What about, Russia N. Korea you forgot Iran.
Countries are now waking up to the threat of China buying up huge parts of their industries.
Even more so now with shares dropping sadly it takes something like this to waken them up.
		
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bit like his Fortune then, saying goes he would have had more money now if he had put his Dads money in a post office account... rather than "running his Business"

as for not being stupid, you have never seen or heard any of his Press Confs


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			The US economy was performing much better as was employment.
He was running the family businesses when he inherited them.
Haters will always be haters as that's the easy way.
		
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Performing much better than when?

And his property/business empire appears to have done rather better since he stepped away from day to day involvement. 

I don't hate the man, rather  I despair that a great nation such as the USA cannot find someone better as their leader.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

Not so much the guy...the issue is the US electorate...with the majority in the edge states thinking about life, and it's rights and wrongs quite differently than most in the fly-over states.


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## gmc40 (Apr 27, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			He inherited a mess that's how he got in.
What about, Russia N. Korea you forgot Iran.
Countries are now waking up to the threat of China buying up huge parts of their industries.
Even more so now with shares dropping sadly it takes something like this to waken them up.
		
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He didn’t inherit a mess at all. You are talking complete nonsense and repeating the crap that he lies about on a daily basis. I’m truly baffled that grown adults can’t see through his crap. It’s a real life version of the Emperors New Coat but unfortunately I think so many people have been brainwashed they can’t see what’s right in front of them. 

Embarrassing.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 27, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			He didn’t inherit a mess at all. You are talking complete nonsense and repeating the crap that he lies about on a daily basis. I’m truly baffled that grown adults can’t see through his crap. It’s a real life version of the Emperors New Coat but unfortunately I think so many people have been brainwashed they can’t see what’s right in front of them.

Embarrassing.
		
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Personally, I think people confuse his lack of basic social skills with being forthright and they then subconsciously link forthrightness to honesty (as in he's honest and speaks his mind) and from that they like to think that that's how they are, forthright and honest. So they start to self identify with him. It's more like a remote mental Stockholm Syndrome than it is anything else for me. 

Trump just blusters and waffles (any old waffle, I'm not even sure his brain is connected while he waffles, truth or no truth it matters none) and the above happens. It's like people that confuse manners with mannerisms 😂


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## larmen (Apr 27, 2020)

I heard about Bush (43) that you put him in a room with 42 random people and he is by far the smartest in the room. If you compare him to 42 presidents before him he doesn’t look that great.
Now, you put Trump in a room with 44 people and he looks a moron. You put him in with 4000 of his supporters he looks brilliant to all 20000 of them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

Seems like Trump’s big internal US focus up to Nov will be on immigration, playing on the xenophobia of his core,  and his external push will be putting the focus on China to blame for the number of coved-19 deaths in the US - to divert from his failings to manage the pandemic.


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## Mudball (Apr 29, 2020)

His opponent is hoping for some intercourse 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255053900304048128


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 29, 2020)

Sorry, this is a long one.

I know little of USA politics and their Presidents. Of what I have been informed, there seems to be trend where those with , shall we say, "varied" personal lives seemed to be inclined to policies to benefit the ordinary American. E.g
Kennedy and Clinton.
I also admired Truman, particularly his decision to decline a Presidential pension.
Kennedy, of course, was a great speech maker ( didn't say writer😀), and his speech about health care, in particular, was  revealing.
But one wonders what they would have done with Twitter. Would they have embraced it, or avoided it.
Hopefully, the latter. It seems to me to be a lot wiser for a President  to communicate in a measured manner.  Whatever happened to "Released statements "?
But Trump , apparently seduced by Twitter, has done himself no favours at all.
He is not a wordsmith, by any stretch of the imagination, and his shooting from the hip style has been  Manna to his critics ( too mild a word).
Like me, almost all here know of Trump mostly what we are told. We see him on TV of course, but as to his intentions and motives, we decide what he is really on what we want to believe. Which Press reports are accurate? Which are slanted maliciously against or mendaciously for?  Working out what he says, or is trying to say, do we look at that fairly or with prejudice?
His latest controversy concerning "injecting disinfectant "  is somewhat fascinating and will , I think, be subject of much comment for a long time.
Was he really suggesting or advocating people to inject disinfectant?
Or was he thinking aloud, ( which a President in front of the Press shouldn't do!), speculating that something about disinfectant may be used against the virus?
I don't know. Some of us may say it was clear he was talking of injecting disinfectant, period.  But was he?
Having been slated and ridiculed for what he said, it seems he ( and advisors?)then  threw up the defence of sarcasm. That didn't wash with me.

However, if I was his Counsel, defending him, I might put forward something like this as regards his link between the virus and disinfectant/bleach.
Knowing next to nothing about both ( like us), it probably has no merit, but, on the other hand, it may ,to the open mind ,be worth a thought or two.

What is the active ingredient in disinfectant which kills the virus?
Is that ingredient always toxic to humans? In all it's possible forms?
If not, is it possible to explore how it may be used for our benefit? Or is it a non starter?
Just today, it is reported that UK soldiers on the covid front line are using insect repellent spray to help ward off the virus.  Hey?  ..........yes, Look it up.
We are now, in our scientific knowledge, in the realms of genes and molecules and organisms. Blood used to be classed in groups, now we know about DNA.
Science is now capable of looking at hypotheses once thought completely implausible.
For example,it is widely regarded that a compound found in sharks has anti viral properties. Some reports say that this compound destroys all viruses . A Dr Zasloff
discovered it and it is called squalamine. 
That, to me, seems an avenue for research . Maybe it has been looked at and led to nothing, I don't know, but we are a long way from 1993 when it was found. 
Being in the situation we are in, it deserves a look.
If this was mentioned by Trump, musing something like "maybe this compound thing, whatever, could be injected, or whatever or the medical doctors could  look at it.."
Then it becomes "Trump says get injected with sharks blood..."

Just saying..........M'Lord.😀


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2020)

US yesterday passed a fairly grim couple of milestones.  More than a million infected and more deaths than service personnel deaths in the ten years of the Vietnam War.  

That this has almost completely happened *after *Trump's much self-vaunted Chinese immigration shut down (though it wasn't actually such a complete shut-down as he'd like his core to believe) doesn't seem to register with him - that he and his administration might actually have mis-managed the spread of the virus *since *the Chinese immigration 'ban'.  In fact in some ways his ban means he can't blame Chinese immigration or visitors for the growth - but he continues to boast about the ban?


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## Mudball (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			US yesterday passed a fairly grim couple of milestones.  More than a million infected and more deaths than service personnel deaths in the ten years of the Vietnam War. 

That this has almost completely happened *after *Trump's much self-vaunted Chinese immigration shut down (though it wasn't actually such a complete shut-down as he'd like his core to believe) doesn't seem to register with him - that he and his administration might actually have mis-managed the spread of the virus *since *the Chinese immigration 'ban'.  In fact in some ways his ban means he can't blame Chinese immigration or visitors for the growth - but he continues to boast about the ban?
		
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Dont worry.. he will blame the Democrat govs for it.  afterall the worst death are in Democrat states as well as some of the toughest lockdowns.  The Republicans are shouting to open. if the economy tanks, he will blame the Democrats for squeezing it out.   There is also another conspiracty theory around high death rates..  One reason being touted by sources as the reason for higher ‘Covid related death’ in the US.. Blame Capitalism or Obamacare (pick your words) 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ore-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/


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## triple_bogey (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			US yesterday passed a fairly grim couple of milestones.  More than a million infected and more deaths than service personnel deaths in the ten years of the Vietnam War. 

That this has almost completely happened *after *Trump's much self-vaunted Chinese immigration shut down (though it wasn't actually such a complete shut-down as he'd like his core to believe) doesn't seem to register with him - that he and his administration might actually have mis-managed the spread of the virus *since *the Chinese immigration 'ban'.  In fact in some ways his ban means he can't blame Chinese immigration or visitors for the growth - but he continues to boast about the ban?
		
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And yet he still praises himself for the matter......''facepalm''

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255352014042738688
NYC Governor Cuomo has already stated, the outbreak didn't start from someone from China. It came from Europe. 
So the WHO were kind of right in saying Trump was wrong in just banning flights just from China. It should had been a full international ban.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 29, 2020)

patricks148 said:



*bit like his Fortune then, saying goes he would have had more money now if he had put his Dads money in a post office account... rather than "running his Business"*

as for not being stupid, you have never seen or heard any of his Press Confs 

Click to expand...

I cannot stand a lot, if not pretty much all about Trump, but this is the one area I might cut him a bit of slack.  Whilst I have no doubt that the assertion regarding his finances is correct, what weight, if any, is given to the fact that he has built up or invested in, for example, golf resorts that provide jobs and income for locals, taxes and potentially knock on effects to the local economy.  Yes it would have been easier to stick it in the bank & live off the interest and personally have greater wealth, but in doing what he has surely he should get some recognition, and he had to invest some of that fortune to do it?


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## patricks148 (Apr 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I cannot stand a lot, if not pretty much all about Trump, but this is the one area I might cut him a bit of slack.  Whilst I have no doubt that the assertion regarding his finances is correct, what weight, if any, is given to the fact that he has built up or invested in, for example, golf resorts that provide jobs and income for locals, taxes and potentially knock on effects to the local economy.  Yes it would have been easier to stick it in the bank & live off the interest and personally have greater wealth, but in doing what he has surely he should get some recognition, and he had to invest some of that fortune to do it?
		
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what about the many many projects that have gone pop and cost others and the D getting off scot free?

didn't have time to look for Proof, so here's just one article
https://www.thoughtco.com/donald-trump-business-bankruptcies-4152019


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## Foxholer (Apr 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I cannot stand a lot, if not pretty much all about Trump, but this is the one area I might cut him a bit of slack.  Whilst I have no doubt that the assertion regarding his finances is correct, what weight, if any, is given to the fact that he has built up or invested in, for example, golf resorts that provide jobs and income for locals, taxes and potentially knock on effects to the local economy.  Yes it would have been easier to stick it in the bank & live off the interest and personally have greater wealth, but in doing what he has surely he should get some recognition, and he had to invest some of that fortune to do it?
		
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Not knocking the benefits that such investment does provide, the entire gist of the comment is surely that he should ALSO have been able to make that investment work much better than he has - as other equivalent organisations (e.g. like other Hotel groups) have! Trump Entertainment Resorts has actually filed for bankruptcy protection 4 times, so he's certainly not running that particularly well - except, perhaps, for his own interest! As he, uniquely, refused to provide financial details that all previous Presidents have, it's difficult to actually tell with much precision!


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## Mudball (Apr 30, 2020)

Well Trump is just the longest pole in the tent... but that tent has a fair share of other wonderful creations of God




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=466618920758665


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Well Trump is just the longest pole in the tent... but that tent has a fair share of other wonderful creations of God




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=466618920758665



Click to expand...

Fortunately she is only the Mayor and has no power over relaxing lockdown constraints...

meanwhile back in Washington DC Trump is raging with his campaign team over his poll ratings, both nationally and in key swing states...well he was warned about the damage his ‘briefings’ were doing.


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## Mudball (May 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fortunately she is only the Mayor and has no power over relaxing lockdown constraints...

meanwhile back in Washington DC Trump is raging with his campaign team over his poll ratings, both nationally and in key swing states...well he was warned about the damage his ‘briefings’ were doing.
		
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Textbook says... Attack China and blame Dems for locking America up. If China had some oil and a smaller army, he would have invaded China by now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

And so this morning we get a mega shrug (well there you go) sort of moment in consideration of Trump and his administration.

Mike Pence's press secretary is tested positive for CV - and guess who Katie Miller is married to - ah yes - Stephen Miller - one of Trump's top advisors (and a bit of a bampot if you listen to him) - all pure coincidence of course.  But what the...someone very close to Pence married to someone very close to Trump - and she tests positive.  No matter says Trump - he and Pence are both tested every day - well that's OK then.  Nothing I've heard yet about Stephen Miller - and I guess that there will be a lot of the administration who will have been close to one or both of the Millers.  Contact tracing could have 'half' the administration self-isolating for 14 days.  

Won't happen of course as that would be the administration demonstrating and admitting the risk with the virus that Trump is trying to play-down as he wants the states to 'open up' - in complete contradiction of course to his own administrations guidelines for determining when to it is safe to start opening up. 

Also loved Trump wearing a pair of goggles rather than a mask when he was visiting a PPE manufacturing facility - as if wearing a pair of goggles is going to protect all of his face from airborne droplets...

No matter, he's the President - and he's an expert on everything


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## Mudball (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so this morning we get a mega shrug (well there you go) sort of moment in consideration of Trump and his administration.

Mike Pence's press secretary is tested positive for CV - and guess who Katie Miller is married to - ah yes - Stephen Miller - one of Trump's top advisors (and a bit of a bampot if you listen to him) - all pure coincidence of course.  But what the...someone very close to Pence married to someone very close to Trump - and she tests positive.  No matter says Trump - he and Pence are both tested every day - well that's OK then.  Nothing I've heard yet about Stephen Miller - and I guess that there will be a lot of the administration who will have been close to one or both of the Millers.  Contact tracing could have 'half' the administration self-isolating for 14 days.  

Won't happen of course as that would be the administration demonstrating and admitting the risk with the virus that Trump is trying to play-down as he wants the states to 'open up' - in complete contradiction of course to his own administrations guidelines for determining when to it is safe to start opening up. 

Also loved Trump wearing a pair of goggles rather than a mask when he was visiting a PPE manufacturing facility - as if wearing a pair of goggles is going to protect all of his face from airborne droplets...

No matter, he's the President - and he's an expert on everything 

Click to expand...

Remember he knows the virus better than anyone else...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Remember he knows the virus better than anyone else...
		
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He knows it's an invisible enemy against which he's going to send the American public into battle - his 'warriors'.

One might reflect on WW1 lions led by donkeys, as the 'donkeys' sent their armies over the top to get mowed down by an invisible enemy - the machine gunners invisible to the troops - the machine gunners who sprayed the killing fields between the trenches with sheets of lead - killing tens of thousands time and again as the donkeys failed to learn the lessons that were so very obvious.

That the lions were 'brave' there is no doubt - but they were pragmatic as they could only do what they were told, but often scared s***less as they also knew as they climbed over the top that they were quite likely to die in very short order at the hands of an invisible enemy.

And so many 100s of thousands of warriors, brave but defenseless against the bullets of the machine guns, died - for no reason other than the stubbornness and vanity of the generals.

Learn the lesson of history?


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## banjofred (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Also loved Trump wearing a pair of goggles rather than a mask when he was visiting a PPE manufacturing facility - as if wearing a pair of goggles is going to protect all of his face from airborne droplets...
		
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If it's the same photo I saw, nobody had masks on.....just goggles. Which to me means it's a safety issue, not a virus issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

banjofred said:



			If it's the same photo I saw, nobody had masks on.....just goggles. Which to me means it's a safety issue, not a virus issue.
		
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Which is true - pity there were signs in the facility tell8ng everyone to wearva mask.    I would not be surprised if it was that as Trump didn’t want to wear a mask then none of the group were to wear one.


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## Mudball (May 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is true - pity there were signs in the facility tell8ng everyone to wearva mask.    I would not be surprised if it was that as Trump didn’t want to wear a mask then none of the group were to wear one.
		
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Atleast they got the music right...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Atleast they got the music right...
		
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As a PotUS other than trump might have said - live and let live...but trump prefers the macca alternative....


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## hovis (May 10, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Textbook says... Attack China and blame Dems for locking America up. If China had some oil and a smaller army, he would have invaded China by now.
		
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Nah, they wouldn't.  China can fight back 😉


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## Mudball (May 10, 2020)

Looks like Covid now inside WH..  some staffers tested positive. I can see the real opportunity here.. If Corona catches Trump, then it might just die out by drowning in its own sh*t ....  lockdown to end soon


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## Fade and Die (May 10, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Looks like Covid now inside WH..  some staffers tested positive. I can see the real opportunity here.. If Corona catches Trump, then it might just die out by drowning in its own sh*t ....  lockdown to end soon
		
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I read Pence’s secretary has it.


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## Kellfire (May 12, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259966016009973765
His latest disgusting behaviour.


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## Wolf (May 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259966016009973765
His latest disgusting behaviour.
		
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Vile human being and how he has the ability to be in charge of a country baffles any form of logic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Vile human being and how he has the ability to be in charge of a country baffles any form of logic.
		
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Just listen to the way he spat out the word 'China' at the (CBS) reporter - and not just once...and of course how he then dismissed the other reporter as he spotted who she was (CNN) - and then he stormed off.   Just awful.  

Notwithstanding how resigned many seem to be that he's bound to get a second term - the polls - even internal GoP polls - are consistently not good for him.  And apparently he is furious...and so China, China, China, Immigrants...


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## cliveb (May 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Notwithstanding how resigned many seem to be that he's bound to get a second term - the polls - even internal GoP polls - are consistently not good for him....
		
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There's something that puzzles me about everyone saying he'll get re-elected. His 2016 win was by a very narrow margin. I can't see how ANYONE who voted against him last time will change. And surely SOME who voted for him last time will have realised their mistake and change this time. So by that reckoning, he really shouldn't stand a chance. There must be something weird about US politics and/or electoral system that escapes me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2020)

cliveb said:



			There's something that puzzles me about everyone saying he'll get re-elected. His 2016 win was by a very narrow margin. I can't see how ANYONE who voted against him last time will change. And surely SOME who voted for him last time will have realised their mistake and change this time. So by that reckoning, he really shouldn't stand a chance. There must be something weird about US politics and/or electoral system that escapes me.
		
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Just a few key swing states.  But as he is trailing by 10 pts with the over 65s that’s not good for him.  Hardly surprising I suppose since, when asked about possible spike and significant further deaths following a ‘reopening’ his response on one occasion in the last week or so was ‘so be it’ 😳 for the more senior of us...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

seve101 said:



			not saying he was right to do what he did, but maybe he knows more about how the virus started and believes that china could have prevented or stopped it before it spread.
the virus started in china and the whole world is suffering because of china, maybe in the uk in  4/6 months time when we're in a deep recession with mass unemployment etc, people here will be blaming china.
		
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Indeed it did start in China.  But the fact of where the US is today, from where it was early Feb, is a result of what Trump did and didn't do and say lat-Jan, Feb into early March - nothing actually to do with where it started.  However he continues to boast how he closed down immigration from China when he did (well he stopped some travel from China) yet the pandemic spread in the US was well underway at that point because he hadn't done anything sooner - in fact he had been denying it was even real - it was 'another Dem hoax...'

BTW - Trump's apparent bafflement and comments over how someone can test negative for the virus one day and positive the next is surely one of the dumbest things a US President has ever said.  And on the basis of that dumbness he had a go at the value of testing


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## Mudball (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it did start in China.  But the fact of where the US is today, from where it was early Feb, is a result of what Trump did and didn't do and say lat-Jan, Feb into early March - nothing actually to do with where it started.  However he continues to boast how he closed down immigration from China when he did (well he stopped some travel from China) yet the pandemic spread in the US was well underway at that point because he hadn't done anything sooner - in fact he had been denying it was even real - it was 'another Dem hoax...'

*BTW - Trump's apparent bafflement and comments over how someone can test negative for the virus one day and positive the next is surely one of the dumbest things a US President has ever said. * And on the basis of that dumbness he had a go at the value of testing 

Click to expand...

My girlfriend has been doing regular pregnancy tests... always negative. Then suddenly one day it was positive .. no idea what happened. There was no point in all those negative tests if you are going to be positive one day


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## triple_bogey (May 13, 2020)

seve101 said:



			not saying he was right to do what he did, but maybe he knows more about how the virus started and believes that china could have prevented or stopped it before it spread.
the virus started in china and the whole world is suffering because of china, maybe in the uk in  4/6 months time when we're in a deep recession with mass unemployment etc, people here will be blaming china.
		
Click to expand...

Correct, the first outbreak started around Dec in China. But the ORIGIN of the virus is still unknown and under investigation. As now there are reports of confirmed cases in France and Japan dated back as early as October 2019. 
The UK media won't report or show this as this doesn't fit the anti-China narrative. 

Suppose the same people blaming China will be the same people that blamed the ''immigrants of stealing their jobs'' 

Put it this way, what if the outbreak started in the US first or even the UK? What would the world look like then? Would the virus just magically disappear or would herd immunity be the answer before it travelled across the world?


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## USER1999 (May 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			My girlfriend has been doing regular pregnancy tests... always negative. Then suddenly one day it was positive .. no idea what happened. There was no point in all those negative tests if you are going to be positive one day
		
Click to expand...

I think I know what might have happened. If you don't, I would start by asking the milkman, and the postman.


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## gmc40 (May 13, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260255585565585411


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## DanFST (May 13, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			Correct, the first outbreak started around Dec in China. But the ORIGIN of the virus is still unknown and under investigation. As now there are reports of confirmed cases in France and Japan dated back as early as October 2019.
The UK media won't report or show this as this doesn't fit the anti-China narrative.

Suppose the same people blaming China will be the same people that blamed the ''immigrants of stealing their jobs'' 

Put it this way, what if the outbreak started in the US first or even the UK? What would the world look like then? Would the virus just magically disappear or would herd immunity be the answer before it travelled across the world?
		
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In all fairness, I'm blaming China. The CCP's handling has been atrocious and reckless, aided by the WHO.

There will be cases here as early as everyone else. We have the second most flights in the world to China I believe (can't find where I previously found that stat) 5 million people left Wuhan before the quarantine, it's the Chinese people I feel sorry for, they have been let down by the CCP again.

Edit: our media and especially the government have been very quiet about the CCP, mainly because we need them.


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## triple_bogey (May 13, 2020)

DanFST said:



			In all fairness, I'm blaming China. *The CCP's handling has been atrocious and reckless, aided by the WHO*.

There will be cases here as early as everyone else. We have the second most flights in the world to China I believe (can't find where I previously found that stat) 5 million people left Wuhan before the quarantine, it's the Chinese people I feel sorry for, they have been let down by the CCP again.

Edit: our media and especially the government have been very quiet about the CCP, mainly because we need them.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of experts sadly disagrees with you there. And frankly sounds alot like what The Sun would print.

Don't you think it'll be more reckless and irresponsible to declare a pandemic when they didn't have a clue what they were dealing with at the time, hence it being called a ''*novel* coronavirus''. There would had been mass panic and hysteria. 
Why would China even bother to share the genetic sequence so countries can quickly develop their own testing kits for its people if that was the case?
Why did a lot of other countries do well in controlling the spread of the virus? Because they took the warnings from the WHO seriously. Didn't South Korea and the US have the first confirmed case on the same day? 
Another place that doesn't seem to get mentioned for its efforts. Hong Kong, 4 confirmed deaths. You would had thought HK would be one of the worst hit in the world, especially seeing as the HK/China borders were still open at the time.

If Trump had actually listened maybe the US wouldn't be the worst hit.


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## DanFST (May 14, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			A lot of experts sadly disagrees with you there. And frankly sounds alot like what The Sun would print.

Don't you think it'll be more reckless and irresponsible to declare a pandemic when they didn't have a clue what they were dealing with at the time, hence it being called a ''*novel* coronavirus''. There would had been mass panic and hysteria.
Why would China even bother to share the genetic sequence so countries can quickly develop their own testing kits for its people if that was the case?
Why did a lot of other countries do well in controlling the spread of the virus? Because they took the warnings from the WHO seriously. Didn't South Korea and the US have the first confirmed case on the same day?
Another place that doesn't seem to get mentioned for its efforts. Hong Kong, 4 confirmed deaths. You would had thought HK would be one of the worst hit in the world, especially seeing as the HK/China borders were still open at the time.

If Trump had actually listened maybe the US wouldn't be the worst hit. 

Click to expand...

Printed by the Sun? You are so blinded by your hatred of Trump, you are actually trying to defend the disgusting CCP.

Who are these experts? as with Most things connected to the CCP, I have yet to see one that isn't benefitting in someway from them.

1) They may have had an idea what they were dealing with if they hadn't forced scientists to stop tests, destroy samples and censored any mention of the disease in December (Scientists were arrested for "spreading rumours") That would have bought the world months, and crucially stopped travel before the Chinese New Year. You must remember the brave Li Wenliang dying of covid, after getting arrested and still whistleblowing. After his death the CCP did an about turn and claimed him a Hero as it was already out in the public.

China is the one country which could have stopped this. Most citizens have no human rights, no access to real information. They can be quarantined just as easily as they disappear.

2) Samples weren't released until February, no independent scientist has been allowed into Wuhan to investigate the cause of the disease. We will never find out how this started.

3) No one has successfully controlled the spread of the virus, where in the world apart from Greenland is life normal? South Korea have done the "best" but there has been another outbreak, life is by no means normal there still. You are incorrect to pin this on the WHO. S Korea hit their peak 2 weeks before the WHO even declared it a pandemic.

How in anyway has the WHO helped them? They have has experience dealing with Sars, people wear masks anyway and they generally follow the rules. 

4) Hong Kong is China now. If you are believing any of their data you are delusional. They built another new hospital on near the Russian border (miles away from Wuhan) mid april, despite only reporting 1000 cases countrywide since then. In the same time period 8 Wuhan funeral homes had deliveries of 40,000 urns.

Li Zehua (the journalist who recorded and reported school busses being turned into hearses, bodies leaving hospitals and brutality by CCP police) filmed his own arrest and disappeared for 2 months. He has now resurfaced saying how much he loves China, the CCP and the police. (what do you think happened to him)

100,000's have died in China, and the world will never know. Their families have no place to morn. Their stories will never be heard. It's desperately sad. This is another which you can add to the long list of tragedies caused by the CCP. I feel desperately sorry for the Chinese people, Censorship and human rights abuses are strong tools.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Printed by the Sun? You are so blinded by your hatred of Trump, you are actually trying to defend the disgusting CCP.

Who are these experts? as with Most things connected to the CCP, I have yet to see one that isn't benefitting in someway from them.

1) They may have had an idea what they were dealing with if they hadn't forced scientists to stop tests, destroy samples and censored any mention of the disease in December (Scientists were arrested for "spreading rumours") That would have bought the world months, and crucially stopped travel before the Chinese New Year. You must remember the brave Li Wenliang dying of covid, after getting arrested and still whistleblowing. After his death the CCP did an about turn and claimed him a Hero as it was already out in the public.

China is the one country which could have stopped this. Most citizens have no human rights, no access to real information. They can be quarantined just as easily as they disappear.

2) Samples weren't released until February, no independent scientist has been allowed into Wuhan to investigate the cause of the disease. We will never find out how this started.

3) No one has successfully controlled the spread of the virus, where in the world apart from Greenland is life normal? South Korea have done the "best" but there has been another outbreak, life is by no means normal there still. You are incorrect to pin this on the WHO. S Korea hit their peak 2 weeks before the WHO even declared it a pandemic.

How in anyway has the WHO helped them? They have has experience dealing with Sars, people wear masks anyway and they generally follow the rules.

4) Hong Kong is China now. If you are believing any of their data you are delusional. They built another new hospital on near the Russian border (miles away from Wuhan) mid april, despite only reporting 1000 cases countrywide since then. In the same time period 8 Wuhan funeral homes had deliveries of 40,000 urns.

Li Zehua (the journalist who recorded and reported school busses being turned into hearses, bodies leaving hospitals and brutality by CCP police) filmed his own arrest and disappeared for 2 months. He has now resurfaced saying how much he loves China, the CCP and the police. (what do you think happened to him)

100,000's have died in China, and the world will never know. Their families have no place to morn. Their stories will never be heard. It's desperately sad. This is another which you can add to the long list of tragedies caused by the CCP. I feel desperately sorry for the Chinese people, Censorship and human rights abuses are strong tools.
		
Click to expand...

Attached is a story that surfaced late Feb/early March. I have seen a few reports of it but nothing for the last 2 months. Be interesting to see how this pans out.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/8004...-of-lying-about-ties-to-china?t=1589412392823


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## triple_bogey (May 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Printed by the Sun? You are so blinded by your hatred of Trump, you are actually trying to defend the disgusting CCP.

Who are these experts? as with Most things connected to the CCP, I have yet to see one that isn't benefitting in someway from them.

1) They may have had an idea what they were dealing with if they hadn't forced scientists to stop tests, destroy samples and censored any mention of the disease in December (Scientists were arrested for "spreading rumours") That would have bought the world months, and crucially stopped travel before the Chinese New Year. You must remember the brave Li Wenliang dying of covid, after getting arrested and still whistleblowing. After his death the CCP did an about turn and claimed him a Hero as it was already out in the public.

China is the one country which could have stopped this. Most citizens have no human rights, no access to real information. They can be quarantined just as easily as they disappear.

2) Samples weren't released until February, no independent scientist has been allowed into Wuhan to investigate the cause of the disease. We will never find out how this started.

3) No one has successfully controlled the spread of the virus, where in the world apart from Greenland is life normal? South Korea have done the "best" but there has been another outbreak, life is by no means normal there still. You are incorrect to pin this on the WHO. S Korea hit their peak 2 weeks before the WHO even declared it a pandemic.

How in anyway has the WHO helped them? They have has experience dealing with Sars, people wear masks anyway and they generally follow the rules.

4) Hong Kong is China now. If you are believing any of their data you are delusional. They built another new hospital on near the Russian border (miles away from Wuhan) mid april, despite only reporting 1000 cases countrywide since then. In the same time period 8 Wuhan funeral homes had deliveries of 40,000 urns.

Li Zehua (the journalist who recorded and reported school busses being turned into hearses, bodies leaving hospitals and brutality by CCP police) filmed his own arrest and disappeared for 2 months. He has now resurfaced saying how much he loves China, the CCP and the police. (what do you think happened to him)

100,000's have died in China, and the world will never know. Their families have no place to morn. Their stories will never be heard. It's desperately sad. This is another which you can add to the long list of tragedies caused by the CCP. I feel desperately sorry for the Chinese people, Censorship and human rights abuses are strong tools.
		
Click to expand...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=94MsoVGua_U 
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/07/mike-pence-praises-china-unprecedented-coronavirus-transparency.html 

Wonder if this guy has been paid off by the CCP?
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/us-cdc-had-very-good-224149977.html 

Plus the fact a lockdown of 11 million people and building of 2 hospitals wasn't a clear sign of it being a serious matter, then I don't know what is? How many more signs does one need?

Dr Li who was a ophthalmologist had been discussing to other colleagues via WeChat of a possible virus circulating (Again, cannot stress this enough, NO-ONE knew at the time what they were dealing with), in which someone from the group has posted it online. Hence why the police ''*reprimanded'' *him as to not cause mass panic. Dr Li went back to work where sadly he contracted Covid and died from the virus.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=AQQf2yoymu0&feature=emb_logo another paid CCP bot?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y76KoQLPyC8 
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200131114748.htm so as to not look biased.

Are we talking about the same Hong Kong that's currently in turmoil atm and has been for the past 8-10months? Mass protests and riots. Practically destroying the whole place. And why is this? Is it because, like yourself they despise the CCP and they are fighting against the system. If anything, wouldn't they try to fuel the fire even worse and lie about its death numbers?

I am in no way defending the CCP, as I like to research it from both sides and then make an rational decision. The facts are there in black and white. You just need to find them. All governments are shady as hell.
Why has Trump and his administration from being supportive suddenly started the blame game? Simple answer, they messed up big time. They are failing massively and instead of taking the responsibility, they decide to throw their toys out of the pram.

''Most citizens have no human rights, no access to real information. They can be quarantined just as easily as they disappear''

Now this I'm sorry is just laughable. If they had no rights, why on earth would their own government build these massive modern super cities with advanced infrastructures. Around 800 million people out of poverty and still rising. 
The China you probably picture, I guarantee is totally different and opposite to you're mindset of China.


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## Robster59 (May 14, 2020)

And now Trump is having a go at his top infectious diseases expert as he's saying something that doesn't toe the line of what Trump is trying to make people believe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52656959

The man is simply a megalomaniac.  He doesn't care about anyone, just himeself and getting re-elected. 
Wait for him to have a go at Robert DeNiro next
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...-niro-on-coronavirus-lockdown-and-us-politics


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## Mudball (May 14, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			And now Trump is having a go at his top infectious diseases expert as he's saying something that doesn't toe the line of what Trump is trying to make people believe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52656959

The man is simply a megalomaniac.  He doesn't care about anyone, just himeself and getting re-elected.
Wait for him to have a go at Robert DeNiro next
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...-niro-on-coronavirus-lockdown-and-us-politics

Click to expand...

He had a go at Jimmy Kemmel already..  DeNiro will be next




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=652192085511410


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## North Mimms (May 14, 2020)

Until Golf Monthly relax their stance on swearing, I cannot convey what I think of Trump.


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## Blue in Munich (May 14, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			Until Golf Monthly relax their stance on swearing, I cannot convey what I think of Trump.
		
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It would take more than that, believe me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			And now Trump is having a go at his top infectious diseases expert as he's saying something that doesn't toe the line of what Trump is trying to make people believe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52656959

The man is simply a megalomaniac.  He doesn't care about anyone, just himeself and getting re-elected.
Wait for him to have a go at Robert DeNiro next
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...-niro-on-coronavirus-lockdown-and-us-politics

Click to expand...

Also recently attacked Joe Scarborough - MSNBC Morning News Host and former GoP US Congressman - and one of Trump's harshest critics - regurgitating a conspiracy story from 20 yrs ago that linked Scarborough to the death of an intern - subsequently shown to be totally unfounded. 

This is the PotUS spouting this stuff for gawds sake.  Apart from anything else, and it is a huge anything else, has he got nothing to better to do that tweet rubbish all the time...the man's a desperate aberration.


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## IanM (May 14, 2020)

From where I sit, America needs a new third group, as the other two Parties are both so nuts and/or corrupt they both need replacing pronto.  Or maybe HM The Queen should re-annex the US


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## Mudball (May 14, 2020)

IanM said:



			From where I sit, America needs a *new third group*, as the other two Parties are both so nuts and/or corrupt they both need replacing pronto.  Or maybe HM The Queen should re-annex the US 

Click to expand...

You mean something like the Lib Dems or SNP?


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## DanFST (May 14, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			''Most citizens have no human rights, no access to real information. They can be quarantined just as easily as they disappear''

Now this I'm sorry is just laughable. If they had no rights, why on earth would their own government build these massive modern super cities with advanced infrastructures. Around 800 million people out of poverty and still rising.
The China you probably picture, I guarantee is totally different and opposite to you're mindset of China.
		
Click to expand...

I'm going to stop this conversation, as that comment has proved you are absolutely clueless. This has no relation to Trump as he has re-election for his final term. Xi Jinping removed that rule, so he's president for life.

1) Chinese have 1-3 million Uighurs in internment camps, solely because of their religion. No one knows what happens there, as no cameras can get in. Tibetans are also persecuted, religion is Illegal to CCP members and their families. Falun Gong is the most famous religious group to be persecuted. What happened to them? (TLDR: They harvested organs) no one knows if this is happening to Tibetans and Uighurs, but organ trade is still continuing...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...g-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes

2) Your fact of 800 million sounds very impressive! If Chinas population wasn't over 1.3 billion... the poorest 25% of households, own 1% of China's wealth. Not only that, China's quasi-apartheid like system means the poor can never move to the new areas, thus always having supply of cheap labour. Doesn't sound so great now does it? The rich are doing great! The majority however, not great.

3) Human rights defenders have been arrested and tortured, investigative journalists have been arrested an tortured. Not only that their families have been harassed. It's a common practise for the CCP to find landlords and remove said families, also removing their children from school.  It's proven that the CCP will arrest and torture until a fake confession is made. And then obviously the CCP has complete control of the justice system.

As your point on HK, yes I can imagine these people aren't going to go easily into a dystopian, totalitarian state. Yes they have SARS experience, 97% wear masks all year round and they have the added mentality of trying to beat the Chinese where this came from. However HK's population is so dense, who controls the death numbers released. The CCP, and they haven't exactly been good at that have they? Unless you really believe 5x as many people have died in the Isle of man compared to HK.


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## triple_bogey (May 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm going to stop this conversation, as that comment has proved you are absolutely clueless. This has no relation to Trump as he has re-election for his final term. Xi Jinping removed that rule, so he's president for life.

1) Chinese have 1-3 million Uighurs in internment camps, solely because of their religion. No one knows what happens there, as no cameras can get in. Tibetans are also persecuted, religion is Illegal to CCP members and their families. Falun Gong is the most famous religious group to be persecuted. What happened to them? (TLDR: They harvested organs) no one knows if this is happening to Tibetans and Uighurs, but organ trade is still continuing...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...g-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes

2) Your fact of 800 million sounds very impressive! If Chinas population wasn't over 1.3 billion... the poorest 25% of households, own 1% of China's wealth. Not only that, China's quasi-apartheid like system means the poor can never move to the new areas, thus always having supply of cheap labour. Doesn't sound so great now does it? The rich are doing great! The majority however, not great.

3) Human rights defenders have been arrested and tortured, investigative journalists have been arrested an tortured. Not only that their families have been harassed. It's a common practise for the CCP to find landlords and remove said families, also removing their children from school.  It's proven that the CCP will arrest and torture until a fake confession is made. And then obviously the CCP has complete control of the justice system.

As your point on HK, yes I can imagine these people aren't going to go easily into a dystopian, totalitarian state. Yes they have SARS experience, 97% wear masks all year round and they have the added mentality of trying to beat the Chinese where this came from. However HK's population is so dense, who controls the death numbers released. The CCP, and they haven't exactly been good at that have they?
		
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OK, lets just agree I'm ''absolutely clueless'' then.....but you have sadly been ''brainwashed'' by mainstream media. 

Unfortunately the link you posted by the Guardian holds no weight. After a little digging around you see the 'China Tribunal' that the Guardian has picked the story up from, has connections to the Epoch Times. Which funnily enough has connections to the Falun Gong. 
The same Falun Gong that believes that Trump was *“sent by heaven to destroy the Communist Party,” *  Sounds like a cult to me...
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harvesting-cult-falun-gong/ 

:taken from Wiki
*Misinformation campaign on COVID-19*
_The Epoch Times_ is identified as spreading misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic in print and via social media including Facebook and YouTube.[39] It has promoted anti-China rhetoric and conspiracy theories around the coronavirus outbreak, for example through an 8-page special edition called "How the Chinese Communist Party Endangered the World", which was distributed unsolicited in April 2020 to mail customers in areas of USA, Canada, and Australia.[40][41] The minisformation tracker NewsGuard characterized _The Epoch Times_ as a "super-spreader" of misinformation for European audiences.[42]

Perhaps the other side of the story if you can be bothered.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE9aZXqw1r4 

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/...ns-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/ Soley on their religion??? The fact that the few terrorist attacks by Uyghur separatists had nothing to do with it? (the video is too graphic to post!)
I'm starting to think these camps are similar to Guantanamo Bay. 
Xinjiang where most of the Uyghurs reside there are currently 25,000 mosques, 39,000 in total all over China. 

Have you actually spent time in China to come to the conclusion that its a dystopian, totalitarian state? Or you just going off what you have read? Just curious!


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## IanM (May 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			You mean something like the Lib Dems or SNP?
		
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I guess I left myself open to that one🤣🤣


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## Backache (May 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			As your point on HK, yes I can imagine these people aren't going to go easily into a dystopian, totalitarian state. Yes they have SARS experience, 97% wear masks all year round and they have the added mentality of trying to beat the Chinese where this came from. However HK's population is so dense, who controls the death numbers released. The CCP, and they haven't exactly been good at that have they? Unless you really believe 5x as many people have died in the Isle of man compared to HK.
		
Click to expand...

Hong Kong had extensive experience of SARS,  it shut its borders early to China. It has a first class health service and public health system.
It's academics produced early papers casting doubt on China's numbers.
I would be very surprised if it's figures were not accurate.


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## DanFST (May 15, 2020)

Backache said:



			Hong Kong had extensive experience of SARS,  it shut its borders early to China. It has a first class health service and public health system.
It's academics produced early papers casting doubt on China's numbers.
I would be very surprised if it's figures were not accurate.
		
Click to expand...

You don't think it's strange that Mauritius has over 2x the amount of deaths as Hong Kong? Despite them only having 300 cases? And the obvious geographical help.

@Slab would be interested to hear your view living on the Island.


Edit: "only" isn't meant to come across insensitive, anyone passing away is too many.


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## Slab (May 15, 2020)

DanFST said:



			You don't think it's strange that Mauritius has over 2x the amount of deaths as Hong Kong? Despite them only having 300 cases? And the obvious geographical help.

@Slab *would be interested to hear your view living on the Island.*


Edit: "only" isn't meant to come across insensitive, anyone passing away is too many.
		
Click to expand...

We lost 10 from 332 cases (some on front-line but I don't know the split) our 'super spreader' came back from overseas for a family funeral and infected others but overall the number of fatalities is (thankfully) too small to be used as a comparable number
I'm convinced our climate helped get us where we are because it kills the virus outdoors in short order (we can almost 'sterilise' stuff by putting it out in the sun for an hour or so and by having a sever lockdown it helped stop a spread indoors)

The gov moved hard & fast after the 1st positive case and shut everything down within 24 hrs and then escalated that to curfew level 24hrs after that when they saw the public weren't being compliant enough. Not even allowing key workers; essential workers only. Borders closed
No leaving the home and food shops closed for 10 days (afaik the only country to close food stores) After that food shopping strictly controlled 

Today marks a partial return to work but all other restrictions remain (inc no golf) I passed through roadblocks and was temp tested before getting access to the office, so despite the gov announcing a wary victory we still face curfew restrictions for another couple of weeks at least with masks etc going to be commonplace for the next couple of months 

This is despite 18 days with no positive tests and zero patients in the country... yup that means masks, temp testing, roadblocks, no exercise and alphabetical shopping restrictions all remain... with no known cases!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2020)

And we hear from Trump on the views of his 'CMO' - Dr Anthony Fauci - in respect of the dangers of opening up too quickly - Fauci's views are _unacceptable_.  Fauci will soon be even _more _excluded from any briefings by the White House than he is at the moment (in self-imposed quarantine).  And though I am not all over the US news channels - I haven't seen or heard much from Dr Deborah Birx (Coronavirus Response Coordinator) recently either.  Oh joys for our cousins across the pond.


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## Backache (May 15, 2020)

DanFST said:



			You don't think it's strange that Mauritius has over 2x the amount of deaths as Hong Kong? Despite them only having 300 cases? And the obvious geographical help.
		
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You cannot compare numbers internationally as you don't know the age or health structure of the cases or the efficiency of capturing them.
Honk Kong doctors are neither dishonest nor incompetent, they had extensive experience with SARS.
Their numbers are almost certainly reliable.


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## spongebob59 (May 15, 2020)

Speaking at a rally, President Trump monologues:
_“When you test you have a case… if we didn’t do any testing we would have very few cases. They don’t want to write that.”_


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## Mudball (May 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we hear from Trump on the views of his 'CMO' - Dr Anthoy Fauci - in respect of the dangers of opening up too quickly - Fauci's views are _unacceptable_.  Fauci will soon be even _more _excluded from any briefings by the White House than he is at the moment (in self-imposed quarantine).  And though I am not all over the US news channels - I haven't seen or heard much from Dr Deborah Birx (Coronavirus Response Coordinator) recently either.  Oh joys for our cousins across the pond.
		
Click to expand...

Who cares about reality and death.. the best thing is the drama of a WH briefing.  The latest is the new press secretary - Kelly or Kellianes or whatever her name is.  Who has earned Trumps respect by humiliating MSM journalist by responding strongly to their questions.




Backache said:



			You cannot compare numbers internationally as you don't know the age or health structure of the cases or the efficiency of capturing them.
Honk Kong doctors are neither dishonest nor incompetent, they had extensive experience with SARS.
Their numbers are almost certainly reliable.
		
Click to expand...

In a similar vein, India has been widely affected but the state of Kerala in South India has been a revelation on how to manage the pandemic.  They went into lockdown first, they created Red-Amber-green zones to get open.  They organised food and supplies to every household in the state. The state has a democratically elected left leaning Communist government!!   While the rest of India is struggling, Kerala is being discussed as a model in UN alongside South Korea et al.  Guardian carried a story this week with Kerala health minister (she was a school teacher before this)  features 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19



spongebob59 said:



			Speaking at a rally, President Trump monologues:
_“When you test you have a case… if we didn’t do any testing we would have very few cases. They don’t want to write that.”_

Click to expand...

As Auto Sergie would say..  _SIMPLES_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Speaking at a rally, President Trump monologues:
_“When you test you have a case… if we didn’t do any testing we would have very few cases. They don’t want to write that.”_

Click to expand...

And so when Katie Miller (Pence's Press Sec.) was tested positive after so many days of testing negative, Trump expressed bafflement and questioned the point of testing when that sort of thing happens...? LOL (if it was a joke - but it's not).

Well of course he'd question the point of testing as it inevitably increases the numbers of infected.  See only back to March 6th when Trump did not want a cruise ship's 21 infected passengers disembark.  There were 20 cases of infection in the US and Trump liked that number.  He didn't want it to double. 

If you don't count the numbers then the numbers can't go up.  Well that thinking went well. What a ....


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## rosecott (May 16, 2020)




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## drdel (May 16, 2020)

I see Rory has refused to play golf with Trump ever again.

I'm sure Trump is worried. Did Rory need to publicise his decision and get into a political arena?


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## triple_bogey (May 16, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261368045072576513


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## Wolf (May 16, 2020)

2 years ago today I was in a bar in Dublin that had this urinal with Trumps image postered into it.. It really is  perfect  and sums up a lot of what he says 😂


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

Out of boredom I watched a few of Trump's briefing on YouTube earlier. The guy is a total fruitcake. Why give up your time to watch/listen to what he has to say? He sure as hell isn't going to give any thought to anyone other than himself. He does not have one redeeming feature. And whatever he chooses to do the other side of the pond he will do. We don't even get to vote for or against...


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## gmc40 (May 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see Rory has refused to play gold with Trump ever again.

I'm sure Trump is worried. Did Rory need to publicise his decision and get into a political arena?
		
Click to expand...

That’s the thing though, he does worry. That is why every time someone in the public eye mocks him or is critical of him, he throws his toys out of the pram and acts like a 5 year old. 

Re: Rory publicising his decision, yes he should, the more who do that the better.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			That’s the thing though, he does worry. That is why every time someone in the public eye mocks him or is critical of him, he throws his toys out of the pram and acts like a 5 year old.

Re: Rory publicising his decision, yes he should, the more who do that the better.
		
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Rory who?


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## North Mimms (May 16, 2020)

What I find amazing (and not in a good way) is just how rabidly loyal his supporters are.
The latest "doctors and nurses running towards death...being a beautiful thing" was repeatedly defended on various Facebook threads I made the mistake of looking at.


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## Kellfire (May 18, 2020)

http://huffp.st/Q4trpvq

His family are just evil.


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## bobmac (May 19, 2020)

It seems it runs in the family 

''Covid 19 is a democratic hoax''
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/05/17/eric-trump-coronavirus/


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## North Mimms (May 19, 2020)

bobmac said:



			It seems it runs in the family

''Covid 19 is a democratic hoax''
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/05/17/eric-trump-coronavirus/

Click to expand...

His elder 2 sons seem to have inherited Daddy's brains


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## chrisd (May 19, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			His elder 2 sons seem to have inherited Daddy's brains
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that a bit like inheriting the family overdraft?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 19, 2020)

Surely he was lying when he said he was taking chloroquinone yesterday, it has heart side effects and is completely unproven in limited Covid-19 trials. His bravado has no limits.


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## GreiginFife (May 19, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262155453888434179
Seems Eric doesn't understand the concept of irony 🤣


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## Robster59 (May 19, 2020)

He probably thinks Irony is a bit like Iron (© I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue )


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## GreiginFife (May 19, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			He probably thinks Irony is a bit like Iron (© I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue )
		
Click to expand...

Kind of guy that thinks monogamy is a type of wood 😁


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## Swinglowandslow (May 19, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I think I know what might have happened. If you don't, I would start by asking the milkman, and the postman.
		
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Study that first sentence carefully. Then ask Murph how *he *knows😁


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## spongebob59 (May 19, 2020)

https://order-order.com/2020/05/19/read-full-trumps-letter-world-health-organisation/

Give his his dues on this although I doubt he wrote it.


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## triple_bogey (May 19, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



https://order-order.com/2020/05/19/read-full-trumps-letter-world-health-organisation/

Give his his dues on this although I doubt he wrote it.
		
Click to expand...

 ........ say hello to the Editor in Chief of The Lancet 



Apparently this is the actual email from Taiwan_ ''indicating human-to-human transmission of a new virus_ ''


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## Robster59 (May 20, 2020)

And just when you think he couldn't get any "better"!

Trump says US topping world virus cases is 'badge of honour'

Proof, if it should be needed, that he will say ANYTHING to deflect the blame, no matter what.


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## USER1999 (May 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Study that first sentence carefully. Then ask Murph how *he *knows😁
		
Click to expand...

Whilst on furlough, I am a milkman. Maybe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Surely he was lying when he said he was taking chloroquinone yesterday, it has heart side effects and is completely unproven in limited Covid-19 trials. His bravado has no limits.
		
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Well opinion is split on whether he's lying or not - though most seem to think he's lying.  However no matter lying or not - even some on Fox News have been adamant in saying that folks shouldn't be taking it as it could kill you.

I suspect this is no more than a Trump 'cunning plan' aimed at proving it doesn't harm you (if he doesn't die) and keeps the virus away - if he doesn't fall ill with Covid-19.  And in his eyes he needs to be able to say that after the mauling he got when a few weeks ago he proposed taking it with his - What's to lose - comment.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well opinion is split on whether he's lying or not - though most seem to think he's lying.  However no matter lying or not - even some on Fox News have been adamant in saying that folks shouldn't be taking it as it could kill you.

I suspect this is no more than a Trump 'cunning plan' aimed at proving it doesn't harm you (if he doesn't die) and keeps the virus away - if he doesn't fall ill with Covid-19.  And in his eyes he needs to be able to say that after the mauling he got when a few weeks ago he proposed taking it with his - What's to lose - comment.
		
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Well, well well. In the interests of fairness and balance, just letting you know that reports I read in British newspaper this morning say that trials are to begin on 10 000 NHS workers trying this drug to see if it has any preventative
Value against Covid.
Quote

""The first UK participants in the new trial can be enrolled from today at Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals and at Oxford's John Radcliffe Hospital.

Further testing is expected at another four sites by the end of May, with 25 total locations opened across the UK before July and more planned around the globe.""

Who knows what to believe these days, but there you have it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, well well. In the interests of fairness and balance, just letting you know that reports I read in British newspaper this morning say that trials are to begin on 10 000 NHS workers trying this drug to see if it has any preventative
Value against Covid.
Quote

""The first UK participants in the new trial can be enrolled from today at Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals and at Oxford's John Radcliffe Hospital.

Further testing is expected at another four sites by the end of May, with 25 total locations opened across the UK before July and more planned around the globe.""

Who knows what to believe these days, but there you have it?
		
Click to expand...

Good if it does have some prophylactic benefits.  But I wouldn't be taking it or suggesting others take it if it is not MHRA approved - and until it has gone through the clinical trials and becomes MHRA approved.

I doubt that Trump is taking it - I suspect that he's only saying this as he knows he can't suffer any side-effects from not taking it (LOL)...and by not displaying side-effects he will be able to say 'look - no side-effects - I was right'.

And when you hear a doctor on US TV supportive of Trump's thinks - well hardly surprising given the recruitment policy...

_"Anybody who joins one of our coalitions is vetted," Murtaugh said Monday. "And so quite obviously, all of our coalitions espouse policies and say things that are, of course, exactly simpatico with what the president believes ... "_

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...s-opposed-cornavirus-restrictions/5227160002/

This logic is of course in line with his logic on testing and the number of coronavirus positives which goes down the line of...'we only have the large number of coronavirus infections in the USA because we are doing so well with our testing'.   This being the sort of logic that had him questioning the value of testing - if someone tests positive after previously testing negative then what's the point of the test?   Of course in Trump-world logic - if you don't test then the number of infections doesn't go up - and so no testing would make the virus '..disappear - just like that'.


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## Robster59 (May 21, 2020)

Another one from Trump.  His deflection tactics are now really starting to stink of desperation!
Mika Brzezinski: TV host blasts 'sick' Trump's conspiracy theory
Basically he's a narcissistic bully boy who attacks people who disagree with him in any way.  It doesn't matter to him if what he says is true or not, just what he believes sounds good to deflect the focus off him and on to other people.


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## Robster59 (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, well well. In the interests of fairness and balance, just letting you know that reports I read in British newspaper this morning say that trials are to begin on 10 000 NHS workers trying this drug to see if it has any preventative
Value against Covid.
Quote

""The first UK participants in the new trial can be enrolled from today at Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals and at Oxford's John Radcliffe Hospital.

Further testing is expected at another four sites by the end of May, with 25 total locations opened across the UK before July and more planned around the globe.""

Who knows what to believe these days, but there you have it?
		
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And the word is testing.  They're not telling people to take it as it is yet unproven.  Trump, by his actions and statements, is encouraging people to do the same.  Totally irresponsible.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 21, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			And the word is testing.  They're not telling people to take it as it is yet unproven.  Trump, by his actions and statements, is encouraging people to do the same.  Totally irresponsible.
		
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Hang on a minute.  This is not a new drug. It is an approved drug , quite cheap, and is prescribed as a treatment for Lupus, acute malaria and certain types of arthritis.
There are side effects, as there are with all drugs, and in this case it can affect the hearts rhythm.
If I had Lupus , arthritis etc, would *I *take it? I don't know, depends on the seriousness of my condition, and on the likelihood of the side effects.
*You *might choose to take it. Others may choose not to.

But it is *not *a new unlicensed drug.

Trump said that after consulting one of his doctors, they concluded the benefits outweighed the risk. So he is taking it.
Doesn't mean other Americans have to.
If he said he took an aspirin a day, does it mean he's irresponsible because if some Americans did and had stomach bleed?

But to jump in and say, without evidence, that he is lying when he says he's taking the drug . . .?    What the..... That's just stark prejudice

I don't know Trump from any other President, but I think he is silly using Twitter etc, and fires from the hip in what he says, (not the way a president should communicate to my way of thinking) . Suggests a too rushed way of decision making etc. 
He isn't  an Obama, a Truman or a Kennedy, or even a Ford 

But there is somewhat of a lynch mentality on here that I am uncomfortable with.








think Tump


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## Robster59 (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hang on a minute.  This is not a new drug. It is an approved drug , quite cheap, and is prescribed as a treatment for Lupus, acute malaria and certain types of arthritis.
There are side effects, as there are with all drugs, and in this case it can affect the hearts rhythm.
If I had Lupus , arthritis etc, would *I *take it? I don't know, depends on the seriousness of my condition, and on the likelihood of the side effects.
*You *might choose to take it. Others may choose not to.

But it is *not *a new unlicensed drug.

Trump said that after consulting one of his doctors, they concluded the benefits outweighed the risk. So he is taking it.
Doesn't mean other Americans have to.
If he said he took an aspirin a day, does it mean he's irresponsible because if some Americans did and had stomach bleed?

But to jump in and say, without evidence, that he is lying when he says he's taking the drug . . .?    What the..... That's just stark prejudice

I don't know Trump from any other President, but I think he is silly using Twitter etc, and fires from the hip in what he says, (not the way a president should communicate to my way of thinking) . Suggests a too rushed way of decision making etc.
He isn't  an Obama, a Truman or a Kennedy, or even a Ford

But there is somewhat of a lynch mentality on here that I am uncomfortable with.








think Tump
		
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It is unproven as Coronavirus treatment and it can have bad side effects if used incorrectly.  It is prescribed for people for one use and not for this.  There is no evidence hydroxychloroquine can fight coronavirus, and regulators warn the drug may cause heart problems.

The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) last month issued an advisory saying that hydroxychloroquine has "not been shown to be safe and effective".
It cited reports that the drug can cause serious heart rhythm problems in Covid-19 patients.
The FDA warned against use of the medication outside hospitals, where the agency has granted temporary authorisation for its use in some cases. Clinical trials of the drug are also under way.
The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) says there are no approved drugs or therapeutics to prevent or treat Covid-19, which is confirmed to have infected more than 1.5 million people in the US, killing more than 90,000 patients.

Asked what was his evidence of hydroxychloroquine's positive benefits, Mr Trump said: "Here's my evidence: I get a lot of positive calls about it."  

And he totally goes against all the actual medical evidence because he has had lots of calls about it? Allegedly? 

I appreciate you're playing devils advocate but the man is behaving totally irresponsibly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 21, 2020)

My wife has been on on Hydroxychloroquine for over 20 years and has had to undergo checks for side effects on her heart and her eyes every 4 months since she started them, nobody should be taking any prescribed medication without being monitored by their Doctor, whether that be a one off check at point of prescription or ongoing.


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## bobmac (May 21, 2020)

I didn't know DT has been learning the accordion


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			My wife has been on on Hydroxychloroquine for over 20 years and has had to undergo checks for side effects on her heart and her eyes every 4 months since she started them, nobody should be taking any prescribed medication without being monitored by their Doctor, whether that be a one off check at point of prescription or ongoing.
		
Click to expand...

Quite simply in Trump I see just a rather vile person who will lie about anything, and who will hurl abuse at anyone who suggests he might not be God (as he understands himself)


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## Swinglowandslow (May 21, 2020)

I see some objective reasoning being somewhat masked by some 
O.T.T subjective hatred here.
With the obvious exception of SILH, I think most think the Trump is taking this drug. You should be aware that he is taking it on prescription. It's never been suggested that one shouldn't, and I am pretty sure that it can't be taken other than on prescription.
So, that means asking a Dr for it. Then would follow advice etc about taking it. 
Also, it is going to be trialled on 10 000 NHS workforce.
So, it is worthy of discussion, is it not?
Finally, may I ask, If ( big if I wouldn't bet on, mind) , if the trials show it did assist in preventing the virus taking hold, or its worst effects, would *you *ask your Dr for it?
😳


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## GreiginFife (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I see some objective reasoning being somewhat masked by some
O.T.T subjective hatred here.
With the obvious exception of SILH, I think most think the Trump is taking this drug. You should be aware that he is taking it on prescription. It's never been suggested that one shouldn't, and I am pretty sure that it can't be taken other than on prescription.
So, that means asking a Dr for it. Then would follow advice etc about taking it.
Also, it is going to be trialled on 10 000 NHS workforce.
So, it is worthy of discussion, is it not?
Finally, may I ask, If ( big if I wouldn't bet on, mind) , if the trials show it did assist in preventing the virus taking hold, or its worst effects, would *you *ask your Dr for it?
😳
		
Click to expand...

I know of only one person that has had to take hydroxychloroquine and he had malaria after returning from South Africa. It did some real damage to his system and that was forewarned by his GP (on the basis that he was told it would do damage but he might die without it). His GP was quite clear that it does harm in a majority of cases but is effective in treating malaria. 

On that basis, even if it had a proven effect on Covid-19, I personally would not take the risk of the damage it can do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I see some objective reasoning being somewhat masked by some
O.T.T subjective hatred here.
With the obvious exception of SILH, I think most think the Trump is taking this drug. You should be aware that he is taking it on prescription. It's never been suggested that one shouldn't, and I am pretty sure that it can't be taken other than on prescription.
So, that means asking a Dr for it. Then would follow advice etc about taking it.
Also, it is going to be trialled on 10 000 NHS workforce.
So, it is worthy of discussion, is it not?
Finally, may I ask, If ( big if I wouldn't bet on, mind) , if the trials show it did assist in preventing the virus taking hold, or its worst effects, would *you *ask your Dr for it?
😳
		
Click to expand...

Why would you take a drug that has not been proven to work unless you are part of the study group and I’d imagine Trump would quite easily “bully” a Dr in to prescribing him anything he wants.

I’m pretty sure every drug is available on the black market and prescription drugs are available via dodgy sites around the world, people could easily end up getting hold of what they think is this drug and god knows what it contains.

Fine if he’s on it, but his own Medical Experts and FDA have said it shouldn’t be taken for Covid-19.

As for the study, it will involve NHS Staff who have regular contact with Covid-19 patients in a controlled study, it’s not involving just some random people who think it’s a good idea.


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## Robster59 (May 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I see some objective reasoning being somewhat masked by some
O.T.T subjective hatred here.
With the obvious exception of SILH, I think most think the Trump is taking this drug. You should be aware that he is taking it on prescription. It's never been suggested that one shouldn't, and I am pretty sure that it can't be taken other than on prescription.
So, that means asking a Dr for it. Then would follow advice etc about taking it.
Also, it is going to be trialled on 10 000 NHS workforce.
So, it is worthy of discussion, is it not?
Finally, may I ask, If ( big if I wouldn't bet on, mind) , if the trials show it did assist in preventing the virus taking hold, or its worst effects, would *you *ask your Dr for it?
😳
		
Click to expand...

I think you can see in the case of many famous cases (e.g. Michael Jackson) there are doctors out there who will give people inadvisable drugs it they ask for it. And I don't think Trump will take No for an answer.


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## spongebob59 (May 22, 2020)

He's probably not even on it, just got share s in the company selling it.


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I know of only one person that has had to take hydroxychloroquine and he had malaria after returning from South Africa. It did some real damage to his system and that was forewarned by his GP (on the basis that he was told it would do damage but he might die without it). His GP was quite clear that it does harm in a majority of cases but is effective in treating malaria.

On that basis, even if it had a proven effect on Covid-19, I personally would not take the risk of the damage it can do.
		
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Can we convince to take double or treble doses? Though I too have my (significant) doubts as to whether Trump is really taking it! 

PS. Not really suggesting the multiple dosage, but what a 'great' thought!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why would you take a drug that has not been proven to work unless you are part of the study group and I’d imagine Trump would quite easily “bully” a Dr in to prescribing him anything he wants.

I’m pretty sure every drug is available on the black market and prescription drugs are available via dodgy sites around the world, people could easily end up getting hold of what they think is this drug and god knows what it contains.

Fine if he’s on it, but his own Medical Experts and FDA have said it shouldn’t be taken for Covid-19.

As for the study, it will involve NHS Staff who have regular contact with Covid-19 patients in a controlled study, it’s not involving just some random people who think it’s a good idea.
		
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It has not gone unnoticed that whilst Trump‘s Dr has said that they discussed taking the drug, his Dr has not said that he prescribed it for Trump.


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## DanFST (May 23, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			Now this I'm sorry is just laughable. If they had no rights, why on earth would their own government build these massive modern super cities with advanced infrastructures. Around 800 million people out of poverty and still rising.
The China you probably picture, I guarantee is totally different and opposite to you're mindset of China.
		
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It's fine, HK has just become mainland China. Ignoring the HK legislature and any due process. 

Good rights those!


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## triple_bogey (May 25, 2020)

Unbelievable.......Trump golfing a day or two ago. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264322140259512320




DanFST said:



			It's fine, HK has just become mainland China. Ignoring the HK legislature and any due process.

Good rights those!
		
Click to expand...

So you are happy with thugs demanding ''freedom of speech'' and ''democracy'', but yet many normal HK citizens who really just want to get on with their daily lives are set upon and beaten within an inch of their life or being set on fire. No-one is safe, young woman and OAP's are also physically attacked simply because they disagree with what these idiots are doing/saying. Ironic don't you think?
Shops, transport systems having to shut down. People cannot even drive to work as their routes are barricaded.

I'm surprised the CCP even took 10+ months to take action. Probably too busy harvesting organs from Falun Gong members or building more mosques to terrorize the Muslim population.


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## Robster59 (May 27, 2020)

And now he's had a reprimand from Twitter! 
Twitter tags Trump tweet with fact-checking warning
And it's laughable that he then says it restricts freedom of speech when he viciously attacks anyone who speaks out against him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

And today the tweets are about Obamagate - a completely invented conspiracy about Obama and Biden spying on Trump.  OBAMAGATE MAKES WATERGATE LOOK LIKE SMALL POTATOES

And in addition Trump is spouting what in the UK would be defamatory and libelous bile about Joe Scarborough and the death of an intern 19yrs ago.  Indeed the parents of the intern have asked Twitter to remove Trump's tweets on this as they are spurious, unfounded and very upsetting.

And so _Fact Check_ tagging


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## spongebob59 (May 29, 2020)

😮😮😲


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266231100780744704


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## Robster59 (May 29, 2020)

Funny he can stand back and watch Covid-19 kill tens of thousands of American citizens. 
I see this tweet has now been deleted by Twitter for glorifying violence.  The big bully baby has now spit out his dummy in a big way with threatening to put in an executive order aimed at removing some of the legal protections given to social media platforms.
In other words, Twitter is fine whilst he spouts his bile, vitriol and lies but as soon as he's pulled up for it then he gets a strop on.
I've said right from the start that this is someone who nobody has said "No" to for a long time.  The more I read about him, the more singularly vile he becomes.


----------



## Grant85 (May 29, 2020)

I personally don't see the point in Twitter doing this, and I appreciate they aren't aiming at Trump in particular and other political leaders and news organisations would face similar treatment. It's just that he is the poster boy. 

But from a Trump point of view, he is just going to play the victim and use the underdog strategy again, like he did 4 years ago. I'll bet secretly he can't believe his luck and I'd 100% expect him to be tweeting things every day now that are close to or across the line. 

He'll almost be goading twitter into banning him or deleting his account by tonight. 

Problem is it seems everyone has to be polarised these days, whether it's politicians (that once would be on the centre left or right), newspapers and even broadcasters and journalists.


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## Robster59 (May 29, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			I personally don't see the point in Twitter doing this, and I appreciate they aren't aiming at Trump in particular and other political leaders and news organisations would face similar treatment. It's just that he is the poster boy.

But from a Trump point of view, he is just going to play the victim and use the underdog strategy again, like he did 4 years ago. I'll bet secretly he can't believe his luck and I'd 100% expect him to be tweeting things every day now that are close to or across the line.

He'll almost be goading twitter into banning him or deleting his account by tonight.

Problem is it seems everyone has to be polarised these days, whether it's politicians (that once would be on the centre left or right), newspapers and even broadcasters and journalists.
		
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I think they have to be shown to be even handed.  The man is using Twitter as a sounding board for his own publicity and posts things without any proof behind it and people are gullible enough to believe it.  Twitter has to do this otherwise they will stand accussed of bowing to bully boy Trump.  Trumps ardent supporters will believe whatever drivel he puts on but it might make some people who are unsure think "hang on".  And he claims this is an infringement of his free speech yet he personally abuses anyone who posts anything against him, which means he is attacking free speech.  Becoming President has turned him into a complete megalomaniac.


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## Grant85 (May 29, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I think they have to be shown to be even handed.  The man is using Twitter as a sounding board for his own publicity and posts things without any proof behind it and people are gullible enough to believe it.  Twitter has to do this otherwise they will stand accussed of bowing to bully boy Trump.  Trumps ardent supporters will believe whatever drivel he puts on but it might make some people who are unsure think "hang on".  And he claims this is an infringement of his free speech yet he personally abuses anyone who posts anything against him, which means he is attacking free speech.  Becoming President has turned him into a complete megalomaniac.
		
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Absolutely, they have to be even handed. But when you start trying to decide what is and what isn't ok, it becomes an impossible task as there will always be things close to the line and grey areas. There will also be tweets that clearly breach the rules, but have such little reach that twitter will probably never see them or have the manpower to tag them.

The use of language is not black and white. 

The phrase that's been censored is 'when the looting starts, the shooting starts'. When I see that, I see someone who has a poor grasp of English, not someone glorifying violence. Trivialising it, maybe.


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## North Mimms (May 29, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			The phrase that's been censored is 'when the looting starts, the shooting starts'. When I see that, I see someone who has a poor grasp of English, not someone glorifying violence. Trivialising it, maybe.
		
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He is quoting a Miami Police chief from 1968
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-quotes-cop-sparked-race-riot-tweet-2020-5?r=US&IR=T


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## Grant85 (May 29, 2020)

North Mimms said:



			He is quoting a Miami Police chief from 1968
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-quotes-cop-sparked-race-riot-tweet-2020-5?r=US&IR=T

Click to expand...

Ah - fair enough. 

But the point still stands that there will always be nuances with things that people say, that will be very difficult to police.


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## Foxholer (May 31, 2020)

Quite old 'news' (well, yesterday) but surprised no-one has commented on it (or have they?)....

Trump announces US is to withdraw from WHO - cancelling the $400M payment they originally withheld!

Strikes me as barmy, especially in the current environment. Lame, election driven (imo) excuse!


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2020)

That’s right. Trump is now saying being anti fascist is a terrorist offence.


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## Hobbit (Jun 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:



View attachment 30956

That’s right. Trump is now saying being anti fascist is a terrorist offence.
		
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No he's not. He's saying ANTIFA is a terrorist organisation. And as much as it sticks in my throat, he's right. Its a Marxist communist, anarcho-communist organisation that supports violence to achieve its aims.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 1, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Quite old 'news' (well, yesterday) but surprised no-one has commented on it (or have they?)....

Trump announces US is to withdraw from WHO - cancelling the $400M payment they originally withheld!

Strikes me as barmy, especially in the current environment. Lame, election driven (imo) excuse!
		
Click to expand...

Of course its an election driven agenda. Everything this orange balloon does is. The simplicity of this one is that it gives him a great target to pin the blame on for the state of the US Covd situation. Donald Trump takes the Celtic FC stance, always cheated never defeated (it's always someone else's fault).


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## larmen (Jun 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			No he's not. He's saying ANTIFA is a terrorist organisation. And as much as it sticks in my throat, he's right. Its a Marxist communist, anarcho-communist organisation that supports violence to achieve its aims.
		
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Is there an actual organisation, or is it just a movement?


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## rudebhoy (Jun 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			No he's not. He's saying ANTIFA is a terrorist organisation. And as much as it sticks in my throat, he's right. Its a Marxist communist, anarcho-communist organisation that supports violence to achieve its aims.
		
Click to expand...

that's utter rubbish. It's a movement, not an organisation. It has no central leadership. It is mostly peaceful, but there are some in it who believe in violent protests. To call it a terrorist organisation is ludicrous, would you have called the Poll Tax protesters terrorists?


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## Dando (Jun 1, 2020)

larmen said:



			Is there an actual organisation, or is it just a movement?
		
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Neither, they’re just a rabble of trouble makers


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## Crumplezone (Jun 1, 2020)

larmen said:



			Is there an actual organisation, or is it just a movement?
		
Click to expand...

ANTIFA is not a singular organisation. Nor does it have any structure. It is a loose collection of organisations and individuals whose only thing in common is they wish to rid the world of racism.  So it cannot be banned as it is not an organisation. Most anti fascists are not Marxist communist, anarcho-communist or violent.


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## Foxholer (Jun 1, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			...Donald Trump takes the Celtic FC stance, always cheated never defeated (it's always someone else's fault).
		
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It was all good until your own blind bias (I hesitate to use the word 'bigotry', but it's likely appropriate) showed. And FWIW my (Scottish) heritage is definitely NOT Celtic (nor Rangers for that matter) oriented!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Unfortunately Trump is a long, long way from the calming and uniting President that the United States need at this moment.  Very worrying.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 1, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It was all good until your own blind bias (I hesitate to use the word 'bigotry', but it's likely appropriate) showed. And FWIW my (Scottish) heritage is definitely NOT Celtic (nor Rangers for that matter) oriented!
		
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Actually I despise both of the ugly sisters equally so take your self righteous pipe elsewhere. My comment was on how they act and have done to the game up here. My "blind bias" is what's best for the whole of the game in Scotland.


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## Foxholer (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately Trump is a long, long way from the calming and uniting President that the United States need at this moment.  Very worrying.
		
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He'll keep blaming China! And in some ways he's right - they are definitely becoming a 'threat' to US's dominant position. But treating them as an enemy (cf opponent), like he does, is not the right way imo! Oh, and if not China, then it's 'the liberals' aka Democrats, as it's election time!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			He'll keep blaming China! And in some ways he's right - they are definitely becoming a 'threat' to US's dominant position. But treating them as an enemy (cf opponent), like he does, is not the right way imo! Oh, and if not China, then it's 'the liberals' aka Democrats, as it's election time!
		
Click to expand...

He can't blame China for the riots happening across the country...in fact I hear that many of his senior GoP allies don't think he is capable of doing a calming/uniting address to the nation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I wonder if there’s a snappier word for an anti-anti-fascist?
		
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do two negatives make a positive?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2020)




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## GreiginFife (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I wonder if there’s a snappier word for an anti-anti-fascist?
		
Click to expand...

Trumpist?


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## GreiginFife (Jun 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think that’s a synonym for it.
		
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Dunno about that but it certainly means the same thing 😉.

(For the benefit of pedants and Foxholer) that's a joke.


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## Wolf (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Didn't Biden Cr*p himself on live TV? And is accused of sexual assault? And is generally creepy?

Why is it the US can't put up one normal candidate.

(before people get irate, I have no horse in the race. It just astounds me)
		
Click to expand...

I know this is quoted from yhe other thread but didn't want to detract it further so brought it over here.. 

Not sure if Biden did crap himself, but there's been something like 8 counts of reported sexual inappropriate behaviour towards female staff, plus that weird live meet he did on tv the other where he got really creepy with the young girl and she looked very uncomfortable. Certainly comes across as the creepy uncle type. 

Makes you wonder how a 77year old less than ideal candidate could be chosen as the best candidate the opposition can offer against Trump. Sadly in America iy comes down to who had most money to spend on a campaign nowadays rather than the most credible candidate for POTUS...


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I know this is quoted from yhe other thread but didn't want to detract it further so brought it over here..
		
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Completely agree 

This - thats the video that made me wretch slightly coupled with the allegations. It's a shame that campaign money is key and the majority of the electorate have no interest in self learning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2020)

Trump standing outside the church in Washington DC...what was he up to standing in front of the church holding up a Bible.

The Bible means a lot to him apparently as he looked at it with some bemusement, which of course he would as he likely knows diddly-squat about it - thinking, as he has stated in the past, that the Old and New Testaments are equally important for Christians.

And of course he won't cite (not quote - just mention) anything in the Bible that he particularly likes.  Because he most likely knows nothing at all about the Bible or read much if any of it - but for his support on the Evangelic Right it looks good.

So let's clear the peaceful demonstrators out of the way using tear gas so that he can walk - hard man statesman-like - from the WH to the church so that he can be photographed holding up a Bible. How very Christian. 

BTW - I know that for most here and out there this may be of minimal interest - but for at least one  it is a cause for a bit of head shaking and bemusement that he thought that what he was doing was 'a good thing'...maybe he thinks that if he publicly demonstrates that he believes he has God on his side, then that will justify his behaviour, words and actions.  Maybe - but who knows.


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## Robster59 (Jun 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trump standing outside the church in Washington DC...what was he up to standing in front of the church holding up a Bible.

The Bible means a lot to him apparently as he looked at it with some bemusement, which of course he would as he likely knows diddly-squat about it - thinking, as he has stated in the past, that the Old and New Testaments are equally important for Christians.

And of course he won't cite (not quote - just mention) anything in the Bible that he particularly likes.  Because he most likely knows nothing at all about the Bible or read much if any of it - but for his support on the Evangelic Right it looks good.

So let's clear the peaceful demonstrators out of the way using tear gas so that he can walk - hard man statesman-like - from the WH to the church so that he can be photographed holding up a Bible. How very Christian. 

BTW - I know that for most here and out there this may be of minimal interest - but for at least one  it is a cause for a bit of head shaking and bemusement that he thought that what he was doing was 'a good thing'...maybe he thinks that if he publicly demonstrates that he believes he has God on his side, then that will justify his behaviour, words and actions.  Maybe - but who knows.
		
Click to expand...

It has not gone down well with the religious leaders
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52890650


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## Fade and Die (Jun 2, 2020)




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## USER1999 (Jun 2, 2020)

May be the bible is hollow, and has a hip flask in it?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			May be the bible is hollow, and has a hip flask in it?
		
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Dunno but it’s upside down and back to front! #Antichrist 😮


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## spongebob59 (Jun 2, 2020)

Pure ballcocks



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1267885675338219520


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## patricks148 (Jun 2, 2020)

i think we have been too dismissive of the US and its diversity,  after all they did elect a President of Colour (orange admittedly) who also has a learning difficulty


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Pure ballcocks



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1267885675338219520

Click to expand...

He really doesn't have a clue does he. It's all about him isn't it and I am sure some former presidents would point to their own achievements

A simple google search brought up some of Obama's acheivements https://obamawhitehouse.archives.go...merican-community-during-obama-administration 

Even an article claiming Obama wasn't that great still reckons he was better than Trump https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...-obama-was-better-black-americans-than-he-is/


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## Hoganman1 (Jun 2, 2020)

I guess a lot of you think we're crazy over here. Well, about 40% of us are crazy. However, I'm part of the 60%. I'm a Scotch/Irish Democrat that lives in the South and I'm very frustrated with what this guy is doing (or not doing).  Please don't judge us based on what you see from the trumplicans.  I hope and pray that Joe Biden is our next President. He's certainly not perfect, but he is a decent human being and will surround himself with smart competent people just like Obama did.


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## Hoganman1 (Jun 3, 2020)

Well two good things happened today. Finally, they charged and hopefully arrested the other three police officers than participated in the murder of George Floyd AND it looks like the repubs won't be having their convention here in Charlotte. My family and I all worked for the DNC when their convention nominated President Obama in 2012. We didn't want the stain on that legacy  the orange clown and his followers would have brought to our wonderful city.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1267970835358330881


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2020)

Gen Mattis (who Trump used to love) being very damning of the Trump presidency and Def Sec Esper (looking to get hoofed out of his role?) basically rejecting outright the idea that - even for the current level of chaos - such as the 101st Airborne Division could be mobilised against protesters as Trump has suggested.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1267970835358330881

Click to expand...

The Lincoln Project (a Republican campaigning group vehemently opposed to Trump) also putting out damning ads.  One of their founding principles is upholding and protecting the Constitution...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

...chaos is what's going on...

Def Sec Esper refuses to consider deploying military then changes his tune after a meeting with Trump - and then...

...AG Barr deploying unbadged and unknown security forces to 'dominate' protesters in Washington DC; peaceful protesters getting injured as a result of 'falling down' according to the police; not at all good.

And Trump preens himself and struts about acting the Big Man - looking like and talking, as much as hardly makes any difference, like some authoritarian president of an ex-Soviet state.  Well I suppose he does admire the likes of Putin and Kim Jong-un.

And ex Def Sec Mattis and multiple senior retired military leaders (inc ex Supreme Allied Commander Europe - Wesley Clark) condemn Trumps actions as being profoundly undermining of the American way and the Constitution.

Meanwhile Trump claims as Fake News reports of him being taken down to the WH bunker when protests outside the WH got a bit close - yes - Trump choses that precise moment to go down a make a tiny small inspection of the bunker.  Yes.  Like he does.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 5, 2020)

Bizarre


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268920235706458113


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## triple_bogey (Jun 17, 2020)

Got to be taking the mick now.......

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273014513097375747


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## Hoganman1 (Jun 17, 2020)

I firmly believe that we must get rid of three people before we can restore our country: Trump, Bill Barr and Mitch McConnell. I hope and pray that we can accomplish this by voting in November.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			I firmly believe that we must get rid of three people before we can restore our country: Trump, Bill Barr and Mitch McConnell. I hope and pray that we can accomplish this by voting in November.
		
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..and it would be nice if Lindsey Graham got his comeuppance in South Carolina given his impressive _volte face_ on both Trump and Biden from when before Trump was PotUS - truly astonishing and pretty nauseating.  Fortunately 'Anyone but Trump' Republicans are on his case.  Would also be nice to see the backside of Kayleigh McEneny - jeepers - almost makes you hearken back with fondness to the days of Sarah Huckabee Saunders..hmmm...almost...where is Sean Spicer when you really need him.


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## Hoganman1 (Jun 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and it would be nice if Lindsey Graham got his comeuppance in South Carolina given his impressive _volte face_ on both Trump and Biden from when before Trump was PotUS - truly astonishing and pretty nauseating.  Fortunately 'Anyone but Trump' Republicans are on his case.  Would also be nice to see the backside of Kayleigh McEneny - jeepers - almost makes you hearken back with fondness to the days of Sarah Huckabee Saunders..hmmm...almost...where is Sean Spicer when you really need him.
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget Betsy "I hate public schools" DeVos, Mike "I hate gay people" Pence and Stephen "I hate everybody who's not white" Miller.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 17, 2020)

This I gotta read :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273337537260642304


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			Don't forget Betsy "I hate public schools" DeVos, Mike "I hate gay people" Pence and Stephen "I hate everybody who's not white" Miller.
		
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Stephen Miller is just plain spooky...

Meanwhile Trump and his supporters launch with great vigour their 'Bolton was always weak and rubbish, and his every word is a lie or a secret - lock him up' narrative.

As we know - Trump's core 32-34% of the US electorate will not waver in their belief in Trump - they have bought into his narrative - they cannot reverse out of it.  He has promised them things that no other politician will deliver - some that others might not even offer - some that are not deliverable no matter who has promised...

So it seems to be for populist leaders - Trump's supporters will rationalise into acceptance every utterance and action of Trump's - no matter how wrong, ludicrous or deceitful these might be.


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## Hoganman1 (Jun 19, 2020)

So it seems to be for populist leaders - Trump's supporters will rationalise into acceptance every utterance and action of Trump's - no matter how wrong, ludicrous or deceitful these might be.[/QUOTE]

You are totally correct. Now, let's not waste anymore time talking about this jerk and get back to golf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			So it seems to be for populist leaders - Trump's supporters will rationalise into acceptance every utterance and action of Trump's - no matter how wrong, ludicrous or deceitful these might be.
		
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You are totally correct. Now, let's not waste anymore time talking about this jerk and get back to golf.[/QUOTE]
I wish - however you must understand that there are many in this country who believed the tripe spouted over the last few years about how great Trump will be as a friend to the UK - as one who would provide the UK with a GREAT trade deal - yeh - a GREAT deal for Trump.  

Can you imagine Trump agreeing any form of trade deal with the UK that undermines or undercuts in any way the markets internal and external of any US business - especially of businesses in any of the fly-over states.  

See also Bolton on Trump encouraging/begging the Chinese Premier (and others around the globe) to buy produce from his key states as that would improve his re-election chances.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 21, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274501301745917952


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2020)

And so the AG fires the New York southern district Chief prosecutor to be told that he can’t as the CP was appointed by the district (state?) Supreme Court. But the PotUS can.

So AG goes away to speak with the PotUS to get his nod.  AG comes back and tells him he has got the nod from PotUS and so sacked.  Well that seems a done deal.  But when  later asked why he sacked the CP the dear PotUS claims no knowledge of the sacking.  If that is the case then the CP isn‘t sacked. He might choose to resign - but he isn’t sacked because only thePotUS can do that. And out of Trumps own mouth - he didn’t.

I must be missing something.  Or maybe It’s just another sign of the PotUS and the top of his federal administration of the US comprising the most stinkingly corrupt bunch of, at best, recent times.


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## jim8flog (Jun 21, 2020)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274501301745917952

Click to expand...

 Yep yesterday's comment were totally unbelievable

effectively " stop the testing so we do not find out who is infected"

This guy certainly has a screw loose


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yep yesterday's comment were totally unbelievable

effectively " stop the testing so we do not find out who is infected"

This guy certainly has a screw loose
		
Click to expand...

But his supporters (well those in the seats that actually contained anyone) lapped it up! Really scary!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yep yesterday's comment were totally unbelievable

effectively " stop the testing so we do not find out who is infected"

This guy certainly has a screw loose
		
Click to expand...

There is one aspect though about testing and increasing numbers in Trumps disingenuous thinking which is true.  The more testing there is being done - the more likely it is that more positives will be found...even in a fixed level of infection - or indeed a reducing one.

However on that specific - the question should be what % of all tests are positive as that will tell you if the infection is spreading— the bare number of positive tests doesn’t necessarily tell you that.  Of course the undeniable measure of where the disease is within a community is the number of people in hospital suffering from CV19. If that is going up then it’s spreading.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
However on that specific - the question should be what % of all tests are positive as *that will tell you if the infection is spreading*...
		
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Not really. All it will tell you is the percentage of tests that are positives. The varying availability of tests could easily affect those numbers. 


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
Of course the undeniable measure of where the disease is within a community is the number of people in hospital suffering from CV19. If that is going up then it’s spreading.
		
Click to expand...

This is much closer - but could still be false in countries/communities where hospital treatment costs - US for example - or requires significant travel/effort to get to - South America, Africa for example.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2020)

Russia Secretly Offered Afghan Militants Bounties to Kill U.S. Troops...and the WH has known about it for some months and has remained silent on the matter and has not issued any reprimand of Russia or Putin...

Trump denies any knowledge of it.  Not sure if that is better or worse...

If it's true of course...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghanistan-bounties.html


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## rudebhoy (Jul 7, 2020)

Donald Jr tweeted this, quite incredible!


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 7, 2020)

This is disgraceful. To all of my friends in Europe and the rest of the world: Please know this does NOT reflect the values of most citizens in the US. This man and his followers have hijacked our country. This has happened before all over the world, but I pray it will soon end here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			This is disgraceful. To all of my friends in Europe and the rest of the world: Please know this does NOT reflect the values of most citizens in the US. This man and his followers have hijacked our country. This has happened before all over the world, but I pray it will soon end here.
		
Click to expand...

On Sunday we had a long video chat with British friends who live in Seattle and have done so for many years.  They are in despair and very worried over what they see happening in the the US these last few years and presently under Trump - though they also express despair at what they can see happening in their own home country - the UK - as the populist behaviour and messaging of our government mirrors as they see it (albeit to a lesser extent) what Trump is doing in the US.


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## Robster59 (Jul 7, 2020)

Sadly, no matter how low or weird or controversial or bigoted or anything you think he can get, he then exceeds all expectations.
He now reminds me of one of those looney, neurotic, paranoid dictators you see portrayed in films, except he's (sadly) real.


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## Sats (Jul 7, 2020)

The only thing good about TRUMP is TRUMP GOLF COURSES . The rest of it can do one.


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 7, 2020)

I'm a life long Democrat, but have always found Republicans I could tolerate. This is no longer the case. The problem with Republican administrations has always been that when they were in power, all of these racist cockroaches came crawling out of the woodwork. Fortunately, they never were able to gain any traction.Now we have one sitting in The White House. Far right web sites, Fox News and even Facebook have provided a safe haven for hate groups.  Frankly, getting rid of Trump is only the first step to exterminating these vermin from our society. I still have faith that there are enough decent people in the US to prevail, but it's not going to be easy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Sadly, no matter how low or weird or controversial or bigoted or anything you think he can get, he then exceeds all expectations.
He now reminds me of one of those looney, neurotic, paranoid dictators you see portrayed in films, except he's (sadly) real.
		
Click to expand...

When you watch Trumps posturing and demeanor from the podium during his Independence Day speeches at the WH and Mt Rushmore I cannot help but see reflections of Mussolini and even Hitler.


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## Robster59 (Jul 7, 2020)

Sats said:



			The only thing good about TRUMP is TRUMP GOLF COURSES . The rest of it can do one.
		
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I honestly couldn't play a Trump golf course.  I would do nothing that shows any kind of support for anything involved with that "man".


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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)




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## Mudball (Jul 7, 2020)

Groan alert >>

Fund raising to investigate DomCom...   funny how he has vanished from the front pages
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/investigatedominiccummings/


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## DanFST (Jul 8, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I honestly couldn't play a Trump golf course.  I would do nothing that shows any kind of support for anything involved with that "man".
		
Click to expand...

It's a shame, I know a member at Turnberry and by all accounts he's done an outstanding job.


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## Robster59 (Jul 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It's a shame, I know a member at Turnberry and by all accounts he's done an outstanding job.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I know, I have a friend who's son is an assistant at Turnberry and I've heard nothing but fantastic reviews about what the people he's paid (not him) have done to the course.  And the same about Trump Aberdeen.  But I still couldn't.


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## ger147 (Jul 8, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Oh I know, I have a friend who's son is an assistant at Turnberry and I've heard nothing but fantastic reviews about what the people he's paid (not him) have done to the course.  And the same about Trump Aberdeen.  But I still couldn't.
		
Click to expand...

Turnberry is my all time favourite no.1 golf course and was long before the Fonald turned up, so I refuse to deny myself a trip to play golf on my favourite ever couse just because that choob has bought it.


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

Trump unfortunately also helps promote racism...  If you think Racism exists in other countries and within the redneck community.  This Brit is a CEO of a company.  He may be on alcohol but it brought up the inner feelings

Warning: Strong racist language 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279919578416439298


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## triple_bogey (Jul 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Trump unfortunately also helps promote racism...  If you think Racism exists in other countries and within the redneck community.  This Brit is a CEO of a company.  He may be on alcohol but it brought up the inner feelings

Warning: Strong racist language


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279919578416439298

Click to expand...

Idiot's sister in law is Asian.....that's going to be fun at the next family gathering.


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			Idiot's sister in law is Asian.....that's going to be fun at the next family gathering. 

Click to expand...

Maybe he hates her??


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 8, 2020)

Now, he wants to refuse funding to our public schools if they don't open in the Fall. This guy has got to go. Basically, there are three ways for the US to remove a president. Number one is impeachment in the House and conviction in the Senate. We tried that and failed. Number two is to vote him out of office. I pray every night that we can achieve that in November. However, there is a third option that we've tried a few times here and it works. I would never advocate using that option. However, if number two fails, I might consider becoming a third option supporter.


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## Mudball (Jul 9, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			Now, he wants to refuse funding to our public schools if they don't open in the Fall. This guy has got to go. Basically, there are three ways for the US to remove a president. Number one is impeachment in the House and conviction in the Senate. We tried that and failed. Number two is to vote him out of office. I pray every night that we can achieve that in November. However, there is a third option that we've tried a few times here and it works. I would never advocate using that option. However, if number two fails, I might consider becoming a third option supporter.
		
Click to expand...

other than that.. how was the play Mrs Lincoln??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			Now, he wants to refuse funding to our public schools if they don't open in the Fall. This guy has got to go. Basically, there are three ways for the US to remove a president. Number one is impeachment in the House and conviction in the Senate. We tried that and failed. Number two is to vote him out of office. I pray every night that we can achieve that in November. However, there is a third option that we've tried a few times here and it works. I would never advocate using that option. However, if number two fails, I might consider becoming a third option supporter.
		
Click to expand...

Twenty-fifth Amendment...?

Plenty of evidence to support


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## banjofred (Jul 9, 2020)

I might as well stick my broken oar in the water...... I AM NOT a Trump supporter, but I can certainly understand why a lot of people voted for him. The political parties are becoming more controlled by money/power than ever. The choice was between Trump and Clinton. Clinton was just another slimy (whether she is or not is irreverent...she is perceived that way) Washington DC politician who would just keep doing business the same way as usual. People wanted a change, and they were hoping Trump could provide that. I can understand that.....very much. There are a lot of people in the US who feel like any change would be better than continuing as before.....I very much understand that as well. What I've never understood is how you could support Trump several years ago, and then after all that has happened since, continue supporting him. How does a religious person keep supporting someone who has no morals what-so-ever. Simple, they perceive Trump as giving them something that they want and they justify it to themselves in any way possible. This is the same thinking behind Brexit (in my opinion). I like the idea of the EU, but I think that establishment has completely pooped all over themselves. I can say that Brexit has happened because the people outside the major areas of the UK think that London is ignoring them, and I would agree. Don't get me going on the EU though...............

Someone mentioned Seattle, the state of Washington is divided politically West/East. The West side with the majority of people are Democrat leaning. The East side which has less people and is more rural is Republican leaning. The East side is angry most of the time because they think they are being ignored....which they kind of are. The views of the people on the West side of the state are the ones that "count" since there are more votes there. People will vote for the politicians that they think will give them what they want. 

What is needed is a politician/political party that can be seen to be helping as many people as possible with no/very little favoritism. I can't see that in the US. The only people who have a chance at this time to lead things are people who I view as "inadequate" for the job. I can't see a person who is truly a good upstanding person having any chance to be the president...the system won't allow it. I reserve judgement on Boris until he has been given plenty of time for things to sort themselves out. Trumps had 3+ years......he's just making a real mess of things and getting worse.....AND making the differences/hatreds between people worse.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

Trump is deliberately and horrendously divisive - divide and conquer seems to be his one and only modus operandi - dividing his nation, as well the the EU and any other multi-national body (see W.H.O) that might prove strong and cohesive enough to resist him.

Interesting snippets from the book by his niece...with descriptions of his character and behaviours from the past that many psychiatrists/psychologists can identify in him today.   Which is where the XXVth Amendment could come in...

Though it would need a swathe of GOP senators to pluck up a great deal of courage (Susan Collins come in please) ...or just stop being toadies as they watch their party and country being wrecked and drifting dangerously towards a brink...a cliff-edge as we in the UK might say


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 9, 2020)

I like your take, Banjofred. I read somewhere that a college student wrote a paper for his political science class proposing that the US is so divided we should consider breaking up into separate countries. While that seems preposterous at first glance, he had some interesting points. His argument was that someone living in NYC has absolutely nothing in common with someone living in a small town in Kansas. He's right. The only problem with his argument is the geography. For instance I live in Charlotte which is the largest city in NC and is quite progressive. However, we are only a few miles from several small towns in South Carolina that are full of Trump supporters. Anyway, it was an interesting read. Hopefully, we'll figure out how to become united again, but it won't be anytime soon.


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## banjofred (Jul 9, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			I like your take, Banjofred. I read somewhere that a college student wrote a paper for his political science class proposing that* the US is so divided we should consider breaking up into separate countries*. While that seems preposterous at first glance, he had some interesting points. His argument was that someone living in NYC has absolutely nothing in common with someone living in a small town in Kansas. He's right. The only problem with his argument is the geography. For instance I live in Charlotte which is the largest city in NC and is quite progressive. However, we are only a few miles from several small towns in South Carolina that are full of Trump supporters. Anyway, it was an interesting read. Hopefully, we'll figure out how to become united again, but it won't be anytime soon.
		
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: I'm from Washington state. Grew up on the West side. Total of 9 years living in Central/Eastern Washington.
It never has had much support, but several efforts for states/areas to break into different areas keep popping up. Then they can keep like-minded people together...which is what they like. People really can't stand other people not agreeing with them. This article from NW news is what a lot of people would like to have happen. Maybe include Idaho and at least E Oregon in it as well. 
https://mynorthwest.com/1259527/washington-secede-state-of-liberty/?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Disclaimer: I'm from Washington state. Grew up on the West side. Total of 9 years living in Central/Eastern Washington.
It never has had much support, but several efforts for states/areas to break into different areas keep popping up. Then they can keep like-minded people together...which is what they like. People really can't stand other people not agreeing with them. This article from NW news is what a lot of people would like to have happen. Maybe include Idaho and at least E Oregon in it as well.
https://mynorthwest.com/1259527/washington-secede-state-of-liberty/?

Click to expand...

We have a close friend who works for an organisation whose remit spans Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, Northern Colorado and Idaho.  We are told how sensitive they have to be to the politics of that vast area.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

Trump's tax returns to be available to prosecutors...

Now - he might be able to put that off until after the election - but if they are dodgy in any way - or not what he has led the US electorate to believe - will he want them looked at at all?  And so if Trump were to lose or if he does not stand will that mean he need not divulge?

Interesting.


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 9, 2020)

Great read; thanks, banjofred. As mentioned, I live in Charlotte. People all over NC, but especially the Eastern part refer to us as "The Great State of Mecklenburg". There was also talk of selling us to South Carolina. We don't really fit there either. Maybe we could gerrymander a new state that runs from Charlotte down I-85 to Atlanta. We could call it "Charlanta". I guess Greenville SC  would be the capital since it's halfway between the two cities.


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## drdel (Jul 9, 2020)

Kayne West will ride to the rescue -when he's feeling better !


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Kayne West will ride to the rescue -when he's feeling better !
		
Click to expand...

As ridiculous as this might sound: he's probably more qualified and smarter that the guy we have now.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 9, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281236505164419073


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## ger147 (Jul 9, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			As ridiculous as this might sound: he's probably more qualified and smarter that the guy we have now.
		
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It IS ridiculous!! Kanye West makes Trump look like Churchill.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It IS ridiculous!! Kanye West makes Trump look like Churchill.
		
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..besides - those darned progressives on TYT spoil the fun by pointing out that KW has missed the cut-off date to submit to stand in the election in too many states for him to have any chance - which is a pity.  No matter - you gotta love Ana Kasparian and Cenk Uygar..


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 9, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It IS ridiculous!! Kanye West makes Trump look like Churchill.
		
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Hey, I was joking but let's not get carried away here. Please don't put Trump in the same sentence as Sir Winston.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 9, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/7976226799/posts/10158958240471800



These people


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 9, 2020)

Wow! This frightening. These people are walking around our country, driving cars and worst of all voting. It just proves that our educational system has failed. I guess I knew there were people like this out there, but I didn't realize there was this many.


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## Kellfire (Jul 11, 2020)

Another typical Trump act in commuting Stone’s prison sentence. What an absolute joke.


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## bobmac (Jul 11, 2020)

I guess the virus isn't just going away.
71,787 new cases as of 10 July.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2020)

In a way I get one of Trumps gripes around number of cases testing positive - if they continue to increase the amount of testing then they will discover closer to the true extent of the community infection.  It may not actually be increasing - you just get a better estimate of the scale of it.  What matters though are the numbers requiring hospitalisation or other treatment.  Increasing numbers of these are independent of the scale of testing - and are a clear manifestation of a growth in the extent of the disease in the community.


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 13, 2020)

Well, I'm much more comfortable now; NOT! It appears this "so called" president has abandoned listening to the top medical expert in the US, Dr. Anthony Fauci. He is now getting his information from Chuck Woolery. Yes, Chuck Woolery, the game show host. This administration has become a bad Saturday Night Live sketch. If my whole family including six grandkids could come with me, I would seriously consider moving to Ireland or Scotland from whence my ancestors came.


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## IanM (Jul 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I guess the virus isn't just going away.
71,787 new cases as of 10 July.
		
Click to expand...


There's no virus, it's a commie scam!   

(apparently)


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## Foxholer (Jul 13, 2020)

Here's a interesting graph of cases with Trump's statements annotated to dates....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcvfAGKXgAA7uo6?format=jpg&name=medium


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

California being closed down by it's Governor due to the state of play with the virus?  Now PotUS isn't going to like _that_.


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 21, 2020)

I've been reading about the Alzheimer's test our president says he "aced". However, The White House won't release his score. Apparently there are thirty questions and twenty four correct answers is a passing grade. When he brought it up during an interview with Fox's Chris Wallace he said the last six questions were really hard. He went on to say he bet Biden or even Wallace himself couldn't answer them. For me that's a clear indication that Trump didn't get some of them correct either. He may not have Alzheimer's, but in my opinion his cognitive skills are still in question


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## pauljames87 (Jul 21, 2020)

I've heard he is saying he won't recognise the result of the election if he is voted out 

Imagine .....

The army would have to back him 

And all the nutters with guns in the south are pro trump anyways so would stop any nay Sayers


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jul 21, 2020)

We have our own Gestapo Secret Police / Stormtroopers now.  They're as I type rounding up civilians in Portland, Oregon.
The "United States of America" now find themselves to be a full-blown fascist state.

Not one of the people who were hanged at Nuremberg deserved it any more than any of the 63,000,000 perverts who voted for the orange troglodyte.

I used to scoff at the idea that it was possible within a finite human lifetime to do anything horrific enough to warrant ETERNAL damnation.
I was wrong.
We have 63,000,000 "people" who deserve exactly that.
How long can I constrain myself from starting to send some of them there?

I'm a secular humanist, myself, but if you're one of the remaining "believers," you might consider praying for me.


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 22, 2020)

This just in: The NY Times is reporting that our so called president asked our ambassador to the UK to try and get The Open Championship moved to his course in Scotland. One cannot imagine the depths of this man's corruption. We are living a nightmare.


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## triple_bogey (Jul 22, 2020)

Trump on Ghislaine Maxwell '' I just wish her well, frankly''............. I would say, he is a very under-rated actor.


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## DanFST (Jul 22, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			We have our own Gestapo Secret Police / Stormtroopers now.  They're as I type rounding up civilians in Portland, Oregon.
The "United States of America" now find themselves to be a full-blown fascist state.
		
Click to expand...


Civilians that are smashing up federal sites, businesses and attacking police...

It's amazing how these black clothed idiots preach antifascism, but loose their mind when someone has a different opinion to them....


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jul 23, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Civilians that are smashing up federal sites, businesses and attacking police...

It's amazing how these black clothed idiots preach antifascism, but loose their mind when someone has a different opinion to them....
		
Click to expand...

The state governor doesn't want them there, so they they have no standing to be there.

Trump and his poodle Barr must hang from the neck on worldwide television.  

Any Dan, if you're hanged right next to them, you vile fascist--you and the 63,000,000 brainless blobs of rotting protoplasm who voted for the diseased orangutan--then nobody will be stepping on my toes.


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## DanFST (Jul 23, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Trump and his poodle Barr must hang from the neck on worldwide television. 

Any Dan, if you're hanged right next to them, you vile fascist--you and the 63,000,000 brainless blobs of rotting protoplasm who voted for the diseased orangutan--then nobody will be stepping on my toes.
		
Click to expand...

Point proven.


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 24, 2020)

On a somewhat lighter note; we just watched JOHN ADAMS. It's a 7 part mini-series on HBO. It's really good a gives a great honest account of the life of our second President. In lieu of where we are now in the US, it's depressing to think we've come to this. Old King George always thought our "experiment" would fail. My greatest fear now is after 244 years he may have been right. We must correct the course.


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## Mudball (Jul 28, 2020)

I am sure there is a section of the Great American public that love the military narrative being used for healthcare workers..    I am sure this is true for a section of the British population.   After all the Drs & Nurses signed up to a life like this... 

but it takes a Trump to take it to the next level and make it beautiful. .. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/mi...ike-soldiers-running-into-bullets/ar-BB147R6o


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

"Jeep mows into Black Lives Matter march" aka: Jeep drives on road. Protestors shoot at it, hitting two protestors in the crossfire. 

I know it's the S*n but journalism is really, really poor these days.


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## gmc40 (Jul 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



"Jeep mows into Black Lives Matter march" aka: Jeep drives on road. Protestors shoot at it, hitting two protestors in the crossfire.

I know it's the S*n but journalism is really, really poor these days.
		
Click to expand...

He wasn’t out for a leisurely drive was he?


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			He wasn’t out for a leisurely drive was he?
		
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I don't know where he/she was going. Doesn't particularly matter. 

Didn't break any law, didn't hurt anyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I don't know where he/she was going. Doesn't particularly matter.

Didn't break any law, didn't hurt anyone.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps only because one group scattered out of his way...

Besides - reckon it's probably against some law to drive at speed through gatherings of pedestrians in a manner that causes some to have to jump of of the way...something along the lines of driving without due care...?


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps only because one group scattered out of his way...

Besides - reckon it's probably against some law to drive at speed through gatherings of pedestrians in a manner that causes some to have to jump of of the way...something along the lines of driving without due care...?
		
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Not sure pedestrians have right of way on a highway. Police should have moved them asap, but they didn't/won't. 


The headline his taking the biscuit. Nutters have used there cars as weapons against peaceful protestors. To try and suggest this is the case is disgusting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

And in case you thought it couldn't get much worse - you have guys like the 'Christian' TV Host - Rick Wiles - encouraging serious violence (shooting) by government forces of protesters...whom he calls insurgents,

I have to add that for me Rick Wiles is as 'Christian' as the Nazis were truly socialist


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Not sure pedestrians have right of way on a highway. Police should have moved them asap, but they didn't/won't.


The headline his taking the biscuit. Nutters have used there cars as weapons against peaceful protestors. To try and suggest this is the case is disgusting.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure a driver has a right to knock down a pedestrian standing in the road - when the driver can see the pedestrian from a long ways off.  That said - it's not as shocking an incident as similar - though it's made to sound it.  Click-bait.


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

Yeah i'm not sure either. I know the guy was pulled over after, but not arrested, car was taken for forensics. 

Media have lost it.


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## gmc40 (Jul 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Not sure pedestrians have right of way on a highway. Police should have moved them asap, but they didn't/won't.


The headline his taking the biscuit. Nutters have used there cars as weapons against peaceful protestors. To try and suggest this is the case is disgusting.
		
Click to expand...

What was the driver doing then? Other than driving at speed through a group of protestors? 

“Disgusting” don’t be so dramatic!


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			What was the driver doing then? Other than driving at speed through a group of protestors?

“Disgusting” don’t be so dramatic!
		
Click to expand...


*"Jeep mows into Black Lives Matter march before protester fires gun, injuring two people in Colorado"*


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			What was the driver doing then? Other than driving at speed through a group of protestors?

“Disgusting” don’t be so dramatic!
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he was on a freeway he didn't know. Maybe he didn't want to stop for fear of being pulled out of the car. Maybe he panicked and put his foot down. Its fairly easy to make up any story from that clip.

Its a clip that we don't see the start of... but we do see at least one protester throw something at the jeep - was that before or after he 'mowed down' the protestor.

I'll be honest, I don't know how I would react if I found myself driving towards a mob of protestors. However, putting my foot down and sounding the horn would be high up the list.


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## Mudball (Jul 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe he was on a freeway he didn't know. Maybe he didn't want to stop for fear of being pulled out of the car. Maybe he panicked and put his foot down. Its fairly easy to make up any story from that clip.

Its a clip that we don't see the start of... but we do see at least one protester throw something at the jeep - was that before or after he 'mowed down' the protestor.

I'll be honest, *I don't know how I would react if I found myself driving towards a mob of protestors.* However, putting my foot down and sounding the horn would be high up the list.
		
Click to expand...

Would you purposefully drive into an area where you know have protestors..


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## gmc40 (Jul 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe he was on a freeway he didn't know. Maybe he didn't want to stop for fear of being pulled out of the car. Maybe he panicked and put his foot down. Its fairly easy to make up any story from that clip.

Its a clip that we don't see the start of... but we do see at least one protester throw something at the jeep - was that before or after he 'mowed down' the protestor.

I'll be honest, I don't know how I would react if I found myself driving towards a mob of protestors. However, putting my foot down and sounding the horn would be high up the list.
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe he drove through a barrier and hit another vehicle that tried to block his way before he speeded through the protestors?


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## gmc40 (Jul 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



*"Jeep mows into Black Lives Matter march before protester fires gun, injuring two people in Colorado"*

Click to expand...

Yup, looks like that’s what happened. Woman was injured jumping out of the way apparently.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

AG Barr getting a bit of a roasting off Dems in the House Judiciary Committee at the moment and oft looking and responding rather sheepishly - but still trying to deny and divert on behalf of his boss.  Usual GoP suspects such as Rep Jordan doing their usual angry and blind Trumpism best to keep on his side,

As quite some few are saying - such as Barr will have a lot to answer for once Trump is gone.  Whenever that is.  I guess he knows that, but you do wonder...


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Would you purposefully drive into an area where you know have protestors..
		
Click to expand...

No I wouldn't drive there if I knew it was on.

And you've never driven somewhere only to find there's a summer parade or crowds going to a concert or sports event? Hell, I've taken the wrong route out of Manchester several times when there's been a match on at Old Trafford. It happens.



gmc40 said:



			Or maybe he drove through a barrier and hit another vehicle that tried to block his way before he speeded through the protestors?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he did, and maybe he didn't. Maybe he didn't know a route off the freeway before he got to the protestors. And maybe he panicked. Or maybe he is a fruit loop. I don't know. Do you?


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Yup, looks like that’s what happened. Woman was injured jumping out of the way apparently.
		
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Yes, a woman went to hospital with I quote, a graze. 

2 protesters were shot by another protestor.


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## gmc40 (Jul 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			No I wouldn't drive there if I knew it was on.

And you've never driven somewhere only to find there's a summer parade or crowds going to a concert or sports event? Hell, I've taken the wrong route out of Manchester several times when there's been a match on at Old Trafford. It happens.



Maybe he did, and maybe he didn't. Maybe he didn't know a route off the freeway before he got to the protestors. And maybe he panicked. Or maybe he is a fruit loop. I don't know. Do you?
		
Click to expand...

Just going off news reports I read and statements from eye witnesses. Not a bad place to start I suppose.


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Just going off news reports I read and statements from eye witnesses. Not a bad place to start I suppose.
		
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I don't have much thought on the incident either way. If he's a fruit loop he'll get what's coming to him. And if he panicked I hope he doesn't get crucified for it.

As for media reports; as a general observation they're not always accurate and are often opinion based and embellished to sell 'copy'. Eyewitnesses that were there. Bearing in mind it was a protest march, what bias might they have compared to an innocent bystander?

But, equally, we all have reports we like to believe sometimes, if it suits our perspective. Like I said, not overly bothered either way, just playing Devil's Advocate with a different perspective.


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## gmc40 (Jul 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Yes, a woman went to hospital with I quote, a graze.

2 protesters were shot by another protestor.
		
Click to expand...

Where did you quote from? I’ve seen reports that one of the shooting victims suffered a graze but not for the woman who jumped out of the way.


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Or maybe reading a number of reports helps form a clearer view?
		
Click to expand...

So you've read reports and your still spouting ?

Here's actual reporting thats out now.

Guy is in jeep, doesn't realise there's a protest. Gets shouted at and car attacked by protestors. A protestor in a white truck jumps in his car and starts to ram the jeep. Guy tails it out of there, whilst getting stuff thrown at his jeep and shots fired at him.

Here is the damage after the ramming and projectiles:






Here is the guy shooting at him:








Guy pulls over to police once off the freeway. Says he was scared and was trying to get away (which is clear by him driving in the middle of the road), wasn't arrested. Car was taken for forensics. 2 people shot and one went to hospital for a graze. But it's the guy in the jeeps fault?


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 28, 2020)

Well it's pretty clear things are going to hell in a hand basket here in the US. I was politically active in the late 60s. While this has not accelerated to that point as yet, it's getting close. Putin should be thrilled. His divide and conquer strategy is working. Hate and violence is resonating across our land. At age 70 I'm tempted to just crawl into my shell and wait it out. However, I have six grand kids and I want them to live in a better world.  What's the old saying "if you are not part of the solution; then you are part of the problem". To all my friends on this side of the pond PLEASE VOTE FOR BIDEN! He's certainly not perfect, but he'a a decent human being.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

Delay the Election...???

So tweeteth the PotUS

Congress - Dear PotUS- Congress.


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## Hobbit (Jul 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Delay the Election...???

So tweeteth the PotUS

Congress - Dear PotUS- Congress.
		
Click to expand...

As you say, “Congress.” Only Congress can delay the election. Which party holds sway in Congress?


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## Mudball (Jul 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			As you say, “Congress.” Only Congress can delay the election. Which party holds sway in Congress?
		
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It only means, he will hold the Dems responsible for forcing an election in the middle of a pandemic...   he wins either way


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

Mudball said:



			It only means, he will hold the Dems responsible for forcing an election in the middle of a pandemic...   he wins either way
		
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A General Election has never been delayed - even by war.  Trump can make as much noise as he wishes after he has lost.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A General Election has never been delayed - even by war.  Trump can make as much noise as he wishes after he has lost.
		
Click to expand...

Assuming he does lose


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Assuming he does lose
		
Click to expand...

Well the very strong rebuttal of the very idea of a delay that Trump has received from senior Always-Trumper GoP Senators such as Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy as well as in editorials in some Trump accommodating newspapers, suggests Trump may have eventually pushed the bounds of his support just a bit far...and that by Trump suggesting delaying the election says to some that Trump may be throwing in the November towel ?


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well the very strong rebuttal of the very idea of a delay that Trump has received from senior Always-Trumper GoP Senators such as Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy as well as in editorials in some Trump accommodating newspapers, suggests Trump may have eventually pushed the bounds of his support just a bit far...and that by Trump suggesting delaying the election says to some that Trump may be throwing in the November towel ?







Click to expand...

My concern is he refuses to accept the result and goes to court. In theory, a new president can be sworn in based on the result, even if contested in several states but it would lead to a constitutional crisis that could drag on for months and months.


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## Italian outcast (Aug 1, 2020)

All credit to Darth M with this 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288193557476585473


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 4, 2020)

Thing is - this interview from yesterday is real - and not a Jonathan Pie spoof.  And it really is the PotUS and not Alec Baldwin.  It's as weird as it is worrying - this is the Leader of the Free World. Our post-Brexit saviour. 

It's worth watching the whole interview - but for a taster go to 13mins in when he starts waving about bits of paper about his (US) performance in respect of tackling coronavirus.  Did his advisors not realise that this would simply demonstrate that Trump needs even the most basic detail written down in very simplistic terms for him to refer to - that his use of them doesn't actually demonstrate much command on the facts...amongst other things.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 4, 2020)

Buffoon




__ https://www.facebook.com/1830665590513511/posts/2825635514349842


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thing is - this interview from yesterday is real - and not a Jonathan Pie spoof.  And it really is the PotUS and not Alec Baldwin.  It's as weird as it is worrying - this is the Leader of the Free World. Our post-Brexit saviour.

It's worth watching the whole interview - but for a taster go to 13mins in when he starts waving about bits of paper about his (US) performance in respect of tackling coronavirus.  Did his advisors not realise that this would simply demonstrate that Trump needs even the most basic detail written down in very simplistic terms for him to refer to - that his use of them doesn't actually demonstrate much command on the facts...amongst other things.







Click to expand...

I've seen bits of this on twitter.  I did at first think it was a parody as there are so many of those (Sarah Coopers are excellent) but it turned out to be real. Still do not think it will change many, if any voters minds about him as by now everyone has a stance and it will not change.  But scary nonetheless.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 4, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Buffoon




__ https://www.facebook.com/1830665590513511/posts/2825635514349842



Click to expand...

Yup - that's the bit of the interview from 13mins in...


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			My concern is he refuses to accept the result and goes to court. In theory, a new president can be sworn in based on the result, even if contested in several states but it would lead to a constitutional crisis that could drag on for months and months.
		
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Actually, I believe if the election is delayed or still undecided on Jan. 20th, Nancy Pelosi will temporarily be president until a final outcome is decided. I'd bet the farm that Trump does not know this.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 4, 2020)

As many have pointed out on twitter, hats off the editors/film crew on how have deliberately filmed and edited this to look like an episode of The Thick of It.  Which just adds to the surrealism of it.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thing is - this interview from yesterday is real - and not a Jonathan Pie spoof.  And it really is the PotUS and not Alec Baldwin.  It's as weird as it is worrying - this is the Leader of the Free World. Our post-Brexit saviour.
...
		
Click to expand...

He's actually acting like ANY politician does - selecting the stats that support his goals and ignoring those that don't! I've no real problem with that, apart from the fact that it's people lives (well, deaths) that he's fudging about!

Oh! And he's plain wrong about ISIL/ISIS no longer being in existence!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 4, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			He's actually acting like ANY politician does - selecting the stats that support his goals and ignoring those that don't! I've no real problem with that, apart from the fact that it's people lives (well, deaths) that he's fudging about!
		
Click to expand...

Putting aside his 'selecting of facts' - and indeed his denying and spinning of the grim one - the deaths  - putting these things aside for a moment - that's not what's quite absurd - it's how he has to have the bits of paper to hand to remind him of the line that his advisors have told him to push because he clearly doesn't really understand quite the fullness of what's going on and is unable to articulate with any clarity his own understanding of it.  Because if he tried he would simply contradict and confuse himself.

And (amongst many other things) he goes on to pretend that he's never heard of or met John Lewis and refuses to give any thoughts on the achievements and sacrifices Lewis made - after all - as Trump said 'Lewis never came to my inauguration'.  Aw diddums I am tempted to say - but no surprise there as for Trump it's always just about himself.  Apart from anything else - if he knew Lewis wasn't at the inauguration then clearly _had_ heard of him.  But you know - core vote and all that...


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Putting aside his 'selecting of facts' - and indeed his denying and spinning of the grim one - the deaths  - putting these things aside for a moment - that's not what's quite absurd - it's how he has to have the bits of paper to hand to remind him of the line that his advisors have told him to push because he clearly doesn't really understand quite the fullness of what's going on and is unable to articulate with any clarity his own understanding of it.  Because if he tried he would simply contradict and confuse himself.

And (amongst many other things) he goes on to pretend that he's never heard of or met John Lewis and refuses to give any thoughts on the achievements and sacrifices Lewis made - after all - as Trump said 'Lewis never came to my inauguration'.  Aw diddums I am tempted to say - but no surprise there as for Trump it's always just about himself.  Apart from anything else - if he knew Lewis wasn't at the inauguration then clearly _had_ heard of him.  But you know - core vote and all that...
		
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I'm pretty certain ALL, or at least MOST, Presidents have those 'prompts' supplied by their support team - certainly the Republican ones who tend to be older than their Democrat equivalents (not this year though). He was just abysmal at utilising them. Spitting Image had great fun with Reagan!


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## Mudball (Aug 4, 2020)

not one to be missed


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 11, 2020)

This is a great article. We'll worth a read. 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...id-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206/


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## Mudball (Aug 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is a great article. We'll worth a read.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...id-19-end-of-american-era-wade-davis-1038206/

Click to expand...

Very interesting indeed..  while it feels a lot like that the time of China is coming, the author does put a lot of stats to put that into perspective.  It is scary.  Needless to say, this will be dismissed as hoax and left wing nonsense.  I am glad it is Rolling Stones not BBC.

Equally, you may see that the news of American demise is highly overrated.  it might have a few things in its bag.  The big question is who will heal the country..   

BTW, a lot of it applies to the UK too.  (flamesuit please)

Finally, it reminded me of this video  >>


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 11, 2020)

This is a great article and sadly, is on target. As a 70 year old US citizen with two children and six grandchildren, I fear for their future. This is why it is imperative that we as Democrats replace the president, re-take the Senate and maintain control of the House. Obviously, this won't magically solve our problems, but it's a start. It took a Great Depression and Pearl Harbor to awake us in the 1930s and 1940s. I sincerely hope the corruption and lack of leadership of this administration and Covid 19 will cause us to open our eyes once again rise from the ashes.


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## Mudball (Aug 11, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			This is a great article and sadly, is on target. As a 70 year old US citizen with two children and six grandchildren, I fear for their future. This is why it is imperative that we as Democrats replace the president, re-take the Senate and maintain control of the House. Obviously, this won't magically solve our problems, but it's a start. It took a Great Depression and Pearl Harbor to awake us in the 1930s and 1940s. I sincerely hope the corruption and lack of leadership of this administration and Covid 19 will cause us to open our eyes once again rise from the ashes.
		
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i agree.. great article..  i love the stats it throws in.   You could argue that Stats can be used in any which way.   The challenge however, is more deep rooted.   One of things that Trump has successfully done is to create an aura of distrust with media.  It has become a Us -v- Them debate.  The GOP wont go against Trump, simply because they have no other candidate and he is their best hope to be in the white house.   We are in the post-truth era where no one knows what is going on.  If someone is not fully bought into your own narrative, then you are considered the foolish one/anti-national/illogical/racist/ <insert whatever phrase takes your fancy that day>


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 11, 2020)

Well, we're all safe now. Russia has a Covid vaccine and we know Putin will gladly share it with his colony. We're so lucky that Trump is so close to him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2020)

Kamala Harris - hope.  I like what I see and hear of her.  Her recent questioning of A.G. Barr was pretty uncompromising - taking no BS from Barr.






She's very experienced, and a very cool, smart and very tough cookie.  The debates she'll have with Pence will be interesting - potential much more interesting than any Trump v Biden debate.

Of course Trump, in his usual almost gynophobic way, attacks her as 'nasty', 'angry', 'horrible' in the way she interrogates his buddies - such as Barr and Supreme Court Judge Kavanaugh.

And that she's a 'failure' - handily forgetting that he has previously thought of her as being her worthy of his significant financial support - when he was a fan - a fan no doubt simply for his own self-serving purposes.

And clever tactics by Biden in chosing someone with whom he has had significant disagreements with in the past.  We know what Trump does when someone disagrees with him - and he doesn't draw them in closer...a very clear differentiation between Biden and Trump in their approaches to partnership and team work.


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## Kellfire (Aug 13, 2020)

So do we all buy into that theory that Biden will stand down shortly into his presidency if elected?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So do we all buy into that theory that Biden will stand down shortly into his presidency if elected?
		
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Well...he's not committing to standing for a second term...but I haven't heard anything on him standing down as you suggest - and I watch a fair bit of US News and regularly check in to one progressive channel that is no great friend of the Dems (though on Trump...) and so would be talking about this.

BTW - worth catching up with Trump a few days ago in news briefing talking about the great Spanish Flu pandemic of 1917 (sic), and how it probably brought the second world war to an end as the solders were sick...

yes really...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292995503957790725


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So do we all buy into that theory that Biden will stand down shortly into his presidency if elected?
		
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Is that theory being put about by Trump? I can see the logic from his viewpoint in going down that road, vote for Biden, get Harris. It muddies the water for the voters. 

I can't see Biden being party to it. Why would you give up the chance to be President for a full term?


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## banjofred (Aug 13, 2020)

I don't vote anymore in the US, but I can definitely see Biden going the one term and getting out. At least Harris is intelligent and young-ish. Late 70's is getting pretty old to hold down that job....unless you sit around watching tv a lot like someone I know......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2020)

Heard a total- Trumpist on Fox News (judge Pirro) opine that Biden might not be on the Dem ticket when the election comes.  What’s that about? Is she trying to ‘frighten’ some swing voters against the Dems by implying that Harris might be the candidate against Trump and so swing the polls and influence postal voting soon to start? The right wing in the US stinks - truly abhorrent.


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## gmc40 (Aug 14, 2020)

Some interesting developments in the presidency of Trump over the last day or so;

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-urine-trouble_n_5f36049fc5b69fa9e2f92076

Hats off to this journalist


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1294101350939148289


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2020)

And now Trump and his acolytes have started pushing a Harris 'birther' conspiracy theory.  Desperate stuff.  He and they are truly despicable.


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## Mudball (Aug 15, 2020)

Something that this forum may appreciate more 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=195112685138154


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## bobmac (Aug 15, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292956445944606721


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And now Trump and his acolytes have started pushing a Harris 'birther' conspiracy theory.  Desperate stuff.  He and they are truly despicable.
		
Click to expand...

Proof, if any were needed, that there really are no depths to which he and his supporters will sink.


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## Kaz (Aug 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And now Trump and his acolytes have started pushing a Harris 'birther' conspiracy theory.  Desperate stuff.  He and they are truly despicable.
		
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It’s clear racism. No hope for the Republican Party or anyone who votes for them.


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 16, 2020)

Well, a guy named Jim Herman just won the Windham Championship here in my home state of NC. I read that he once was a club pro at one of Trump's clubs and has played with The Cheater in Chief several times. He even said he got a putting tip from Trump. As soon as I read that article I started pulling against him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Person, Woman, Man, Camera , TV 

Had to laugh when I read that these weren't the words from the cognitive ability test that he'd had to repeat but simply what he could see in front of his nose in the interview and what instantly also came to mind ..


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## Mudball (Aug 20, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			Well, a guy named Jim Herman just won the Windham Championship here in my home state of NC. I read that he once was a club pro at one of Trump's clubs and has played with The Cheater in Chief several times. He even said he got a putting tip from Trump. As soon as I read that article I started pulling against him.
		
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Trump would not do that..   I would pay good money to see BoJo & Trump play..  BoJo will take out Trump in a rugby tackle like a school boy


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Court says Trumps Tax returns have to be released to New York state prosecutors - whatever next...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/20/politics/donald-trump-new-york-tax-records/index.html 

_A federal judge on Thursday said New York state prosecutors could have access to President Donald Trump's accounting records for a criminal investigation, siding harshly against the President and increasing the possibility the tax records could go to a grand jury before the November presidential election. _


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 20, 2020)

On top of that another of his former campaign managers (Steve Bannon) has been arrested for skimming money from a fund he created to help build the wall for which Mexico was supposed to pay. This guy is a dumpster fire of corruption.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			On top of that another of his former campaign managers (Steve Bannon) has been arrested for skimming money from a fund he created to help build the wall for which Mexico was supposed to pay. This guy is a dumpster fire of corruption.
		
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I've listened to Trump denying any knowledge of it of course...HIS wall is big and powerful...


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## Mudball (Aug 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Court says Trumps Tax returns have to be released to New York state prosecutors - whatever next...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/20/politics/donald-trump-new-york-tax-records/index.html

_A federal judge on Thursday said New York state prosecutors could have access to President Donald Trump's accounting records for a criminal investigation, siding harshly against the President and increasing the possibility the tax records could go to a grand jury before the November presidential election. _

Click to expand...

Another witch hunt according to him...  he will play this as 'Us-v-them' approach..  The sun is shining


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## Mate (Aug 21, 2020)

They have been out to get Trump from the very beginning and failed every time. Every utterance has been twisted to suit the Dems. Lots of useful idiots out there. Similar to the dolts who think University links with China are all cool.


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## gmc40 (Aug 21, 2020)

Mate said:



			Lots of useful idiots out there.
		
Click to expand...

Yup! But not the ones you’re thinking of.


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## Beezerk (Aug 21, 2020)

What's people's thoughts on Biden?
 I'm not convinced he's the real deal myself, there's something about him I just can't warm to, can't quite put my finger on it.


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## bobmac (Aug 21, 2020)

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

Mate said:



			They have been out to get Trump from the very beginning and failed every time. Every utterance has been twisted to suit the Dems....
		
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I'd suggest it was Trump that started - and still practices - the disgusting dirt-digging style (including implication of corruption where there was none) that has pervaded the US political scene recently! As for 'Every utterance...'; Trump has also been the driver of so many false claims, many via Twitter, so it's natural for any 'opposition' to reply - point out errors/falsehoods!


Mate said:



			...Similar to the dolts who think University links with China are all cool.
		
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Depending on the actual relationship, I'd be one of those 'dolts'! Trump's isolationist policy as a way to 'compete' with China is fundamentally flawed!


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 21, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			What's people's thoughts on Biden?
I'm not convinced he's the real deal myself, there's something about him I just can't warm to, can't quite put my finger on it.
		
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I've always liked Biden. He's certainly not perfect, but he's a decent and honest man. He won't be a perfect president either. The US is deeply divided right now and that won't end if he's elected, but I think it's a step in the right direction.


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 22, 2020)

Being fairly "tuned in" on the political climate over here in the colonies, my wife and I have come to two conclusions. Number one is most of this president's supporters are rich, racist or both. The second is while not all Trump supporters are racist; all racists are Trump supporters. We still have not figured out why the evangelicals support him if they don't fall into one or both of these categories. Our guess is the abortion issue. Anyway we pray every day that the poles are correct in that anywhere from 60% to 70% of voters DO NOT want him re-elected.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 22, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			I've always liked Biden. He's certainly not perfect, but he's a decent and honest man. He won't be a perfect president either. The US is deeply divided right now and that won't end if he's elected, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
		
Click to expand...

Who is the rising star of the Democrats? Who is there we should be keeping an eye out for next time around? Clearly Kamala Harris has a chance to stake a claim but is there another who will be better placed next time and found this election too early for them?

The above is an assumption that Biden will not go two terms if he wins or, shudders, Trump wins again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Who is the rising star of the Democrats? Who is there we should be keeping an eye out for next time around? Clearly Kamala Harris has a chance to stake a claim but is there another who will be better placed next time and found this election too early for them?

The above is an assumption that Biden will not go two terms if he wins or, shudders, Trump wins again.
		
Click to expand...

I liked what I heard of and from Pete Buttigieg.  Whether the current US electorate is ready for him I doubt...


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 22, 2020)

I like Pete too. I also think Andrew Yang has a future in the party as do Beto O'Rourke and Corey Booker. On the female side Kamala is the strongest followed by Keisha Lance Bottoms, Stacy Abrams and I think Amy Klobuchar still has a shot. There are probably others I have failed to mention.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			I like Pete too. I also think Andrew Yang has a future in the party as do Beto O'Rourke and Corey Booker. On the female side Kamala is the strongest followed by Keisha Lance Bottoms, Stacy Abrams and I think Amy Klobuchar still has a shot. There are probably others I have failed to mention.
		
Click to expand...

AOC? Now she seems one smart cookie - however...


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			AOC? Now she seems one smart cookie - however...
		
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She is positioned to take over Bernie's wing of the party. She is a little too far left for me, but I'm old.


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## Mudball (Aug 25, 2020)

Of the few things that still seperates the UK elections from the US ones is the amount of personal mudslinging that goes on...    Now we have Michael Cohen's new advt ...  all gloves are off


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298030438225764352

Unfortunately, it does seem that UK elections is also going down to personality politics with the discrediting of Corbyn + Abbott.  T-May cast aside, Gove the fox, BoJo the loveable clown etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Scary - Trump continues to tell all that the only way that he will lose in November is if the election is 'rigged' and 'stolen' by the Dems.  Many are listening - too many choose to believe him - and so that's lining things up nicely for 'fireworks night' chaos...


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 25, 2020)

Yes. He's pulling out all the tricks in his bag. My only hope is there are  people who are intelligent enough to see through these tactics. We're seeing more and more respectable Republicans coming out to defend against his attacks on our institutions. However, his followers seem determine to ignore the warnings. I'm beginning to think it's not preposterous to see some similarities between now and what happened in Germany in the late 1930s.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			Yes. He's pulling out all the tricks in his bag. My only hope is there are  people who are intelligent enough to see through these tactics. We're seeing more and more respectable Republicans coming out to defend against his attacks on our institutions. However, his followers seem determine to ignore the warnings. I'm beginning to think it's not preposterous to see some similarities between now and what happened in Germany in the late 1930s.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - comparisons with the events and political situation prior to the burning down of the Reichstag that would be considered totally ludicrous exaggeration can be read with interest with two months to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire


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## Mudball (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Scary - Trump continues to tell all that the only way that he will lose in November is if the election is 'rigged' and 'stolen' by the Dems.  Many are listening - too many choose to believe him - and so that's lining things up nicely for 'fireworks night' chaos...
		
Click to expand...

This is now part of the standard playbook for polititicans of all colour and hues - Project Fear.  Us-v-Them..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

And didn't Donald Trump Jnr's. eyes look weird when he was doing his bit...

The TV figures for last night - 3m fewer watching the GoP launch than Team Biden got last week.  Oooh the consternation.  Of course it'll all be lies and fake news by the commie left.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Mudball said:



			This is now part of the standard playbook for polititicans of all colour and hues - Project Fear.  Us-v-Them..
		
Click to expand...

Except with Trump you don't have to imagine too hard about what will be - the Dems only need to reflect upon and project what already has been.


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## Kellfire (Aug 26, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298285841232650241brilliant


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

Guilfoyle was manic; to go with Donald Trump Jnrs 'zonked' look.  Matt Gates claims and assertions about what would happen under the Dems were absurd - as if a Dem president would be something new and that the Dems haven't previously been in charge of Congress. Him seeming to ignore of course that much of what he claimed would happen - already has - under Trump.

But then we had Melania Trump actually talking some sense...apparently her speech was not run past PotUS or his team - and so we heard some consideration and empathy very sadly lacking from the PotUS or his acolytes - and indeed some things in contradiction to a lot of what PotUS has said over the last months and indeed years.  At least we know she can't be president.


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Guilfoyle was manic; to go with Donald Trump Jnrs 'zonked' look.  Matt Gates claims and assertions about what would happen under the Dems were absurd - as if a Dem president would be something new and that the Dems haven't previously been in charge of Congress. Him seeming to ignore of course that much of what he claimed would happen - already has - under Trump.

But then we had Melania Trump actually talking some sense...apparently her speech was not run past PotUS or his team - and so we heard some consideration and empathy very sadly lacking from the PotUS or his acolytes - and indeed some things in contradiction to a lot of what PotUS has said over the last months and indeed years.  *At least we know she can't be president*.
		
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I would love to see that birth certificate


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## banjofred (Aug 27, 2020)

I'd like to think there was no way Trump could get elected again.....but that's what I thought the first time. I'm hoping that his track record since being elected is bad enough to switch those voters who were hoping he would be a breath of fresh political air. They got a change, and if he had actually been a successful businessman I may have been willing to give him a chance myself. But he has always seemed bonkers to me......


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2020)

banjofred said:



			...But he has always seemed bonkers to me......
		
Click to expand...

So were Hitler and Stalin! As were/are several Middle Eastern, African and Asian leaders!


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2020)

banjofred said:



			I'd like to think there was no way Trump could get elected again.....but that's what I thought the first time. I'm hoping that his track record since being elected is bad enough to switch those voters who were hoping he would be a breath of fresh political air. They got a change, and if he had actually been a successful businessman I may have been willing to give him a chance myself. But he has always seemed bonkers to me......
		
Click to expand...

wasnt there a young guy who said he would walk over broken glasses to vote Trump... pretty much sums up his supporters


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 28, 2020)

Donald Trump - "Biden is a danger to America".

I can understand why he has said that.  I mean, who would want someone to challenge your monopoly on that position?


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 28, 2020)

I like Trumps strategy of saying the only thing that can save us from the current discord and broken society in Trumps America is another 4 years of Trumps America.


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So were Hitler and Stalin! As were/are several Middle Eastern, African and Asian leaders!
		
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Are you seriously comparing Trump to Hitler and Stalin?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2020)

Whe



bobmac said:



			Are you seriously comparing Trump to Hitler and Stalin?
		
Click to expand...

When a president talks about cancelling elections and declaring the result of an election null and void if it goes against him; when a president starts on a strategy that makes voting difficult for many who would oppose him; when a president casts his opponent as a real and present danger to the nature and stability of the country;  when a president encourages unbadged and unofficial militias and security forces onto the streets to dissuade and put down  opposition support and dissent, and when that militia fires upon and bundles protesters into unmarked vehicles - then you can start making comparisons.  Because it is dangerous to just ignore these things.


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## Beezerk (Aug 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whe
When a president talks about cancelling elections and declaring the result of an election null and void if it goes against him.
		
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Erm the NZ Prime Minister who seems to be the bastion of the free world has delayed elections hasn't she?
As for the second bit, you've just made that up haven't you


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Are you seriously comparing Trump to Hitler and Stalin?
		
Click to expand...

Re-read my post - especially the quote!


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Re-read my post - especially the quote!
		
Click to expand...

A simple yes or no would do


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			A simple yes or no would do
		
Click to expand...

Re-read the post!!
You can (and no doubt will) interpret it however YOU wish!


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Re-read the post!!
You can (and no doubt will) interpret it however YOU wish!
		
Click to expand...

On reflection, I don't give a monkeys what you think. 
You're back on ignore where you belong.


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## banjofred (Aug 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Erm the NZ Prime Minister who seems to be the bastion of the free world has delayed elections hasn't she?
As for the second bit, you've just made that up haven't you 

Click to expand...

Are the NZ elections able to be adjusted a bit earlier or later (as the UK), or are the dates pretty well set in stone like the US?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Erm the NZ Prime Minister who seems to be the bastion of the free world has delayed elections hasn't she?
As for the second bit, you've just made that up haven't you 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately I haven’t made any of it up. It’s all either happened or is threatened. Not sure which bit you are not sure about.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Erm the NZ Prime Minister who seems to be the bastion of the free world has delayed elections hasn't she?
		
Click to expand...

The opposition National Party pressed for it, and she agreed. Not quite the approach Trump takes.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 28, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Are the NZ elections able to be adjusted a bit earlier or later (as the UK), or are the dates pretty well set in stone like the US?
		
Click to expand...

If you go to around 7.19 she explains that she gets to set the election date, so sounds similar to the UK's method.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			On reflection, I don't give a monkeys what you think.
You're back on ignore where you belong.
		
Click to expand...

Phew! A little less of my time will be wasted!


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			A simple yes or no would do
		
Click to expand...

And there is the problem. Simplistic one dimensional answers to complicated problems.

My answer is that you can compare Trump to Stalin and Hitler, but that does not mean what you will leap to interpret it as, that I consider them to be the same. There are areas of overlap, though, clearly.


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## banjofred (Aug 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you go to around 7.19 she explains that she gets to set the election date, so sounds similar to the UK's method.







Click to expand...

So she is within her rights to do so...nothing to complain about then.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Are the NZ elections able to be adjusted a bit earlier or later (as the UK), or are the dates pretty well set in stone like the US?
		
Click to expand...

Earlier is always fine. 'Later' has a boundary.
Current election date WAS scheduled for 19/9/20 but has been delayed until 17/10/20. It must be held by 21/11/20.


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 30, 2020)

First it was "the Muslims" are coming to the US to destroy our way of life. Then it was "the Mexicans" are coming here to destroy our way of life. Now it's "the BLM movement" is here to destroy our way of life. Soon, it's the "Democrats" that are here to destroy our way of life. How long before anyone who doesn't worship "me" is destroying our way of life. That sounds more like Hitler than Gandhi to me.


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## Mudball (Aug 31, 2020)

this tweet some it up...   The DT is urging the americans that the only way to save America from DT's America is another 4 years of DT...  fab.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			First it was "the Muslims" are coming to the US to destroy our way of life. Then it was "the Mexicans" are coming here to destroy our way of life. Now it's "the BLM movement" is here to destroy our way of life. Soon, it's the "Democrats" that are here to destroy our way of life. How long before anyone who doesn't worship "me" is destroying our way of life. That sounds more like Hitler than Gandhi to me.
		
Click to expand...

What is happening with regards to the wall? That was the big Trump plan last time around. Has it just been forgotten, has anything happened? It doesn't get mentioned over here any more.


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## Mudball (Aug 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What is happening with regards to the wall? That was the big Trump plan last time around. Has it just been forgotten, has anything happened? It doesn't get mentioned over here any more.
		
Click to expand...

well they built about bits of it but i think a lot of it was replacement & repair of existing wall.   The only guy who beneffited was Bannon who made off with the money... just another case of Trump cronies making money while the sun shines... 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...aud-brian-kolfage-we-build-wall-a9682701.html


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## Fade and Die (Aug 31, 2020)

The Yanks are between a rock and a hard place though, DT an idiot who appeals to the worst types of people and Rambling Joe Biden, The Frank Drebbin of American politics, except much more dangerous and less funny!

Much missed Robin Williams hit the nail on the head in 2009!


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Mudball said:



			...The only guy who beneffited was Bannon who made off with the money...
		
Click to expand...

Surely it was (Bernie) Madoff that made off with the money 



 Skip to 2:45 for the reference; 3:00 for the line!


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## banjofred (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			The Yanks are between a rock and a hard place though, DT an idiot who appeals to the worst types of people and Rambling Joe Biden, The Frank Drebbin of American politics, except much more dangerous and less funny!

Much missed Robin Williams hit the nail on the head in 2009!







Click to expand...

Got to admit....I don't get where you are coming from. Biden is *more* dangerous...to Americans and...well...life in general, than Trump? Can *YOU* give me the reasons why you think so? Bullet points will help my beer addled brain. I can give you bullet point list of reasons why Trump is.........not good (had to hold the vomit just to be that nice), but Trump is so unstable that I have no idea where he is heading.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Got to admit....I don't get where you are coming from. Biden is *more* dangerous...to Americans and...well...life in general, than Trump? Can *YOU* give me the reasons why you think so? Bullet points will help my beer addled brain. I can give you bullet point list of reasons why Trump is.........not good (had to hold the vomit just to be that nice), but Trump is so unstable that I have no idea where he is heading.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps more dangerous and less funny...than Frank Drebbin!?
Trump is certainly more dangerous - to Americans and the rest of the World - than Biden imo!


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## Fade and Die (Aug 31, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Got to admit....I don't get where you are coming from. Biden is *more* dangerous...to Americans and...well...life in general, than Trump? Can *YOU* give me the reasons why you think so? Bullet points will help my beer addled brain. I can give you bullet point list of reasons why Trump is.........not good (had to hold the vomit just to be that nice), but Trump is so unstable that I have no idea where he is heading.
		
Click to expand...

Old Joe makes Ronald Regan look like Albert Einstein, he wouldn’t be my 1st choice of babysitter either!
I think you are going to find out what extreme left wing means. No police, high taxes, crime will rise, cost of living will rocket.
He is every bit a liar and hypocrite as Trump and he goes for the race card too quickly. He has an insane fixation on identity issues telling one reporter that “you ain’t black” if you don’t vote for him.
But the real issue with Biden is his age and it seems obvious that he is not mentally fit for the presidency.
I bet you wish there was a “Brewsters Million’s” option.....

A box for “None of the above”!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Old Joe makes Ronald Regan look like Albert Einstein, he wouldn’t be my 1st choice of babysitter either!
I think you are going to find out what extreme left wing means. No police, high taxes, crime will rise, cost of living will rocket.
He is every bit a liar and hypocrite as Trump and he goes for the race card too quickly. He has an insane fixation on identity issues telling one reporter that “you ain’t black” if you don’t vote for him.
But the real issue with Biden is his age and it seems obvious that he is not mentally fit for the presidency.
I bet you wish there was a “Brewsters Million’s” option.....

A box for “None of the above”!
		
Click to expand...

But Biden is only 3.5 years older than Trump.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 31, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But Biden is only 3.5 years older than Trump.
		
Click to expand...

My post is no endorsement of Trump.


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## gmc40 (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Old Joe makes Ronald Regan look like Albert Einstein, he wouldn’t be my 1st choice of babysitter either!
I think you are going to find out what extreme left wing means. No police, high taxes, crime will rise, cost of living will rocket.
He is every bit a liar and hypocrite as Trump and he goes for the race card too quickly. He has an insane fixation on identity issues telling one reporter that “you ain’t black” if you don’t vote for him.
But the real issue with Biden is his age and it seems obvious that he is not mentally fit for the presidency.
I bet you wish there was a “Brewsters Million’s” option.....

A box for “None of the above”!
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like you’ve sat and watched Fox News for a day and are just regurgitating the crap they broadcast.


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## banjofred (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Old Joe makes Ronald Regan look like Albert Einstein, he wouldn’t be my 1st choice of babysitter either!
I think you are going to find out what extreme left wing means. No police, high taxes, crime will rise, cost of living will rocket.
He is every bit a liar and hypocrite as Trump and he goes for the race card too quickly. He has an insane fixation on identity issues telling one reporter that “you ain’t black” if you don’t vote for him.
But the real issue with Biden is his age and it seems obvious that he is not mentally fit for the presidency.
I bet you wish there was a “Brewsters Million’s” option.....

A box for “None of the above”!
		
Click to expand...

None of the above I could go for.....the rest of it, I can only assume you have had more beer than me. 
No police? your info/*facts* for this statement please.
High taxes? same
Crime rising? same
Cost of living? same
there is a pattern here......
Neither of them should be president....but when you are given the choice between ONLY those two......


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## Fade and Die (Aug 31, 2020)

gmc40 said:



			Sounds like you’ve sat and watched Fox News for a day and are just regurgitating the crap they broadcast.
		
Click to expand...

You think because I criticised Biden I’m a Trumper? 😂

Maybe the bit about “ None of the above” was too obscure?

Anyway America is a Democracy, (mob rule!) so all we can do this side of the pond is watch and wait.


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## banjofred (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			You think because I criticised Biden I’m a Trumper? 😂

Maybe the bit about “ None of the above” was too obscure?

Anyway America is a Democracy, (mob rule!) so all we can do this side of the pond is watch and wait.
		
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting to hear why you think the left wing will cause.....no police, high taxes, crime will rise, cost of living will rocket. 
It might happen....I'm just wondering why you think so.


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## gmc40 (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			You think because I criticised Biden I’m a Trumper? 😂

Maybe the bit about “ None of the above” was too obscure?

Anyway America is a Democracy, (mob rule!) so all we can do this side of the pond is watch and wait.
		
Click to expand...

I said you are regurgitating crap. The comments about him being “extreme left wing”, there being “no
Police” and crime rising are just nonsense. To then go on and state that he lies as much as Trump is just a blatant lie. You may not be a Trump supporter but you are as easily manipulated as one.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 31, 2020)

banjofred said:



			I'm still waiting to hear why you think the left wing will cause.....no police, high taxes, crime will rise, cost of living will rocket.
It might happen....I'm just wondering why you think so.
		
Click to expand...

Not much of a stretch is it Fred ? Biden is a Left wing politician, he will raise taxes to fund his welfare policies (nothing wrong with that btw, your healthcare is a national disgrace)
The more you are taxed the less disposable income you will have.
Re defunding the police, they are claiming is just a charming old Joe “misspeak” you will have to make your own mind up if you believe him.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/08/09/joe-bidens-doubletalk-on-defund-the-police/amp/

Remember honest Joe tried to pass a Neil Kinnock speech off as one of his own!😂

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...ed-joe-bidens-first-presidential-bid-11703552


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## banjofred (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Not much of a stretch is it Fred ? Biden is a Left wing politician, he will raise taxes to fund his welfare policies (nothing wrong with that btw, your healthcare is a national disgrace)
The more you are taxed the less disposable income you will have.
Re defunding the police, they are claiming is just a charming old Joe “misspeak” you will have to make your own mind up if you believe him.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/08/09/joe-bidens-doubletalk-on-defund-the-police/amp/

Remember honest Joe tried to pass a Neil Kinnock speech off as one of his own!😂

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...ed-joe-bidens-first-presidential-bid-11703552

Click to expand...

Biden isn't left wing.....centre. AOC/Bernie.....left wing. 
He will raise taxes....as if that's bad....and then you say that could be good since what the US has in health care is a national disgrace.....which is it? 
Why....oh why....would Biden defund the police....after he has stated otherwise. https://www.politifact.com/factchec...says-trump-wants-cut-local-law-enforcement-a/
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...defund-the-police-is-misleading-idUSKCN252248
The UK has more of their income taxed than the US.....so nobody in the UK spends money? https://blog.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/paye/tax/comparison-of-uk-and-usa-take-home/

There are lots to complain about with politicians.....fake news....seems to be your strong point.


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## gmc40 (Aug 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Not much of a stretch is it Fred ? Biden is a Left wing politician, he will raise taxes to fund his welfare policies (nothing wrong with that btw, your healthcare is a national disgrace)
The more you are taxed the less disposable income you will have.
Re defunding the police, they are claiming is just a charming old Joe “misspeak” you will have to make your own mind up if you believe him.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/08/09/joe-bidens-doubletalk-on-defund-the-police/amp/

Remember honest Joe tried to pass a Neil Kinnock speech off as one of his own!😂

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...ed-joe-bidens-first-presidential-bid-11703552

Click to expand...

https://www.google.com.mt/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5678334002


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

And so we have Trump publicly expressing excuses for the shooting by a white 17yr old of two protesters in Wisconsin. Well he did say right back then that he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and get away with it. So he seems to think similar about those who support him.  Not good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-53980128


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 1, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Got to admit....I don't get where you are coming from. Biden is *more* dangerous...to Americans and...well...life in general, than Trump? Can *YOU* give me the reasons why you think so? Bullet points will help my beer addled brain. I can give you bullet point list of reasons why Trump is.........not good (had to hold the vomit just to be that nice), but Trump is so unstable that I have no idea where he is heading.
		
Click to expand...

The post reads that Biden is more dangerous than Frank Drebin. Not as you seem to understand it.


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## Kaz (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have Trump publicly expressing excuses for the shooting by a white 17yr old of two protesters in Wisconsin. Well he did say right back then that he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and get away with it. So he seems to think similar about those who support him.  Not good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-53980128

Click to expand...

Trump is pond scum. As is anyone who would still vote for him at this stage, frankly. Which is a lot of people, maybe even enough to game their gerrymandered electoral system again. And will they accept defeat should that happen? Doesn't look likely. Can't see the democratic side playing as nice as they did after 2016 either, if they were to lose. Particularly when they win the popular vote again. America is screwed I reckon.


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## 4LEX (Sep 1, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			You think because I criticised Biden I’m a Trumper? 😂

Maybe the bit about “ None of the above” was too obscure?

Anyway America is a Democracy, (mob rule!) so all we can do this side of the pond is watch and wait.
		
Click to expand...

Mate, they haven't got the brains to understand.

It's the far left using these shootings and BLM as a vehicle to get in power. A black person is five times more likely to die from a bee sting than at the hands of a Policeman in the US. It's all fear, hype and politics.

Interesting to see since the NBA protest, viewing figures have seen reductions of 20% at a time when theres nothing else on.  It's a sign America has had enough of all these ridiculous protests. When push comes to shove, the vast majority of Americans will back him over someone that endorses and encourages anarchy. Trump will win it, nailed on. I backed him big time a month ago and his odds are coming down by the day.


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## 4LEX (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have Trump publicly expressing excuses for the shooting by a white 17yr old of two protesters in Wisconsin. Well he did say right back then that he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and get away with it. So he seems to think similar about those who support him.  Not good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-53980128

Click to expand...

The gunman was clearly a bit of a nutjob but he was attacked by a mob and the supposed 'young gentleman' that got shot was chasing after him and throwing missiles. Nothing more than a bully. In America if you act like that with people who have the right to bear arms, you've only got yourself to blame when it goes wrong.


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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Mate, they haven't got the brains to understand.

It's the far left using these shootings and BLM as a vehicle to get in power. A black person is five times more likely to die from a bee sting than at the hands of a Policeman in the US. It's all fear, hype and politics.

Interesting to see since the NBA protest, viewing figures have seen reductions of 20% at a time when theres nothing else on.  It's a sign America has had enough of all these ridiculous protests. When push comes to shove, the vast majority of Americans will back him over someone that endorses and encourages anarchy. Trump will win it, nailed on. I backed him big time a month ago and his odds are coming down by the day.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear. You’ve got quite the vile views, haven’t you? You actually think Trump and his cronies are in the right, don’t you? Do you really hate people that much?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 2, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Mate, they haven't got the brains to understand.

It's the far left using these shootings and BLM as a vehicle to get in power. A black person is five times more likely to die from a bee sting than at the hands of a Policeman in the US. It's all fear, hype and politics.

Interesting to see since the NBA protest, viewing figures have seen reductions of 20% at a time when theres nothing else on.  It's a sign America has had enough of all these ridiculous protests. When push comes to shove, the vast majority of Americans will back him over someone that endorses and encourages anarchy. Trump will win it, nailed on. I backed him big time a month ago and his odds are coming down by the day.
		
Click to expand...

The past four years have proved that Donald Trump is not fit to hold the office to which he has been elected.
Trump does not seem to have anything like a coherent agenda, let alone a political ideology (Trumpism?). His pursuit (and capture) of the presidency appears to have been the culmination of a lifetime of self-promotion and narcissism. Trump’s ineptitude and unfitness (is this a word?) for high political office has been fully exposed by his woeful response to the Covid19 crisis. In any normal presidential election year, he would be dead and buried.
#None of the above.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 2, 2020)

Ignoring the hating on the Daly Mail, the amount of manipulation that seems to be going on here, and no doubt in a vast number of other places on social media, is frightening. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301087229150932992


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## 4LEX (Sep 2, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Oh dear. You’ve got quite the vile views, haven’t you? You actually think Trump and his cronies are in the right, don’t you? Do you really hate people that much?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of Trump at all. I just happen to think he's the lesser of two evils. As a person he's arrogant, vile and obnoxious.  
However from the moment he was elected, the democrats have done nothing but attack him 24/7 through fair means, foul means and with a lot of spin. That wasn't the way to go. If you have to attack someone non stop it highlights your own weaknesses. They've essentially reduced themselves to Trump's level and he's going to beat them on experience.

The only people I really dislike are extremists on both the right and left. Two sides of the same coin. Both stupid, narrow-minded and happy to engage in violence to prove a point. I'm more about thrashing out different views over an arguement, learning from it and updating my views accordingly. Generally everyone wants the same thing, they just have different ways of going about it. More engagment is needed in politics across the globe. Sadly though, too many people can't do that. If you disagree they'll insult and throw cheap accusations around, much like yourself. I retired from politics after the Brexit debacle and a quick look through this thread is exactly why


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2020)

4LEX said:



			...A black person is five times more likely to die from a bee sting than at the hands of a Policeman in the US. It's all fear, hype and politics.
		
Click to expand...

BLM is not about Death by Cop vs Bee Sting though! It's about Black person's Death by Cop likelihood compared to White person's Death by Cop likelihood!`


Kellfire said:



			Oh dear. You’ve got quite the vile views, haven’t you? You actually think Trump and his cronies are in the right, don’t you? Do you really hate people that much?
		
Click to expand...

And once again you make an unjustified (mis)interpretation!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 2, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I'm not a fan of Trump at all. I just happen to think he's the lesser of two evils. As a person he's arrogant, vile and obnoxious. 
However from the moment he was elected, the democrats have done nothing but attack him 24/7 through fair means, foul means and with a lot of spin. That wasn't the way to go. If you have to attack someone non stop it highlights your own weaknesses. They've essentially reduced themselves to Trump's level and he's going to beat them on experience.

The only people I really dislike are extremists on both the right and left. Two sides of the same coin. Both stupid, narrow-minded and happy to engage in violence to prove a point. I'm more about thrashing out different views over an arguement, learning from it and updating my views accordingly. Generally everyone wants the same thing, they just have different ways of going about it. More engagment is needed in politics across the globe. Sadly though, too many people can't do that. If you disagree they'll insult and throw cheap accusations around, much like yourself. I retired from politics after the Brexit debacle and a quick look through this thread is exactly why 

Click to expand...

Very good post👍

Re the Democrats, they are pathetic, take Kamala Harris for example I know very little about Harris but a quick google shows she has been a federal prosecutor, Attorney-General for California and a member of the Senate – she is far more qualified for the presidency than Donald Trump. But have the media or the Democrats focused on this experience? Nope. It’s all about her sex and skin colour. This is what is so wrong with identity politics; it refuses to treat people as individuals but only as representatives of their ‘group.’ Nothing else can explain the fact that some Democrats wanted Michelle Obama as their presidential candidate – a person who has said repeatedly that she “hates politics.”


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## banjofred (Sep 2, 2020)

4LEX said:



			They've essentially reduced themselves to Trump's level and he's going to beat them on experience.
		
Click to expand...

1. Experience at.........going bankrupt many times? 
2. Experience at........stiffing prostitutes? 
3. Experience at......insulting people with silly names?
4. Experience at.....ahh heck.....I could do this all day.......I have another beer to drink.....


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I'm not a fan of Trump at all. I just happen to think he's the lesser of two evils. As a person he's arrogant, vile and obnoxious. 
However from the moment he was elected, the democrats have done nothing but attack him 24/7 through fair means, foul means and with a lot of spin. That wasn't the way to go. If you have to attack someone non stop it highlights your own weaknesses. They've essentially reduced themselves to Trump's level and he's going to beat them on experience.
		
Click to expand...

Trump's campaign was based on fear, bigotry and lies. It is entirely fair for the Democrats to attack him. He spent his campaign whipping up hatred and fear, and all the lock her up stuff against Hillary, who was a horrible candidate, to be fair. You may remember that Obama tried to work with Republicans but they simply refused, and Trump made it clear he would undo everything Obama did if he got in. 

Now Trump is playing the race card on Kamala Harris too, by questioning her birth (as he did with Obama). He is also engaging in widespread voter suppression for the election, including the mail-in vote issue. 

With Trump, the Dems are not dealing with a rational player and the normal rules of politics do not apply. He is a horrible narcissist and you can't deal reasonably with such people.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2020)

Many people of all races voted Trump in the Presidential elections so obviously his extreme views on all subjects isn't an issue.
Perhaps the question is, why he gets so many votes.

The continued attacks on the man isn’t the way to deal with this by the Democrats, they need  to look at the issues that got him in post.


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Many people of all races voted Trump in the Presidential elections so obviously his extreme views on all subjects isn't an issue.
Perhaps the question is, why he gets so many votes.

The continued attacks on the man isn’t the way to deal with this by the Democrats, they need  to look at the issues that got him in post.
		
Click to expand...

Well, I think it was mostly people of one race. 

The issues that got him were a mixture of systemic issues for which there are no quick fixes, greed from the well off who don't like paying tax (like Trump), and residual racism from the south. Those take time to fix and building a wall doesn't fix much of it. Trump is making all those problem much worse.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, I think it was mostly people of one race.

The issues that got him were a mixture of systemic issues for which there are no quick fixes, greed from the well off who don't like paying tax (like Trump), and residual racism from the south. Those take time to fix and building a wall doesn't fix much of it. Trump is making all those problem much worse.
		
Click to expand...

Wall was something of a red herring IMO as it was already under construction under previous presidents but they never raised its profile.

Many off the poor and unemployed in the mid and southwest felt he would give them what they wanted - jobs, and prior to the current crises the jobs did appear.

Politicians of all sides have encourage extremism and people have lost all trust in the system and have no idea of how the scales can be rebalanced IMO and has resulted in apathy around the world.


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## gmc40 (Sep 2, 2020)

American politics is toxic and Biden wouldn’t be my first choice but how anyone can suggest him and the democrats are on a par with Trump is baffling.

And challenging his views, lies and actions aren’t “attacks”.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Wall was something of a red herring IMO as it was already under construction under previous presidents but they never raised its profile.

Many off the poor and unemployed in the mid and southwest felt he would give them what they wanted - jobs, and prior to the current crises the jobs did appear.

Politicians of all sides have encourage extremism and people have lost all trust in the system and have no idea of how the scales can be rebalanced IMO and has resulted in apathy around the world.
		
Click to expand...

The wall was never a red herring. It was core to his campaign.  If you recall why this thread has the title it has.  I started it (the original one) on the back of Trump's pre-election speech when he railed against, and ranted about, immigrants and the Mexican Border...during which he exclaimed '...what the hell is going on?'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I'm not a fan of Trump at all. I just happen to think he's the lesser of two evils. As a person he's arrogant, vile and obnoxious.
However from the moment he was elected, the democrats have done nothing but attack him 24/7 through fair means, foul means and with a lot of spin. That wasn't the way to go. If you have to attack someone non stop it highlights your own weaknesses. They've essentially reduced themselves to Trump's level and he's going to beat them on experience.

The only people I really dislike are extremists on both the right and left. Two sides of the same coin. Both stupid, narrow-minded and happy to engage in violence to prove a point. I'm more about thrashing out different views over an arguement, learning from it and updating my views accordingly. Generally everyone wants the same thing, they just have different ways of going about it. More engagment is needed in politics across the globe. Sadly though, too many people can't do that. If you disagree they'll insult and throw cheap accusations around, much like yourself. I retired from politics after the Brexit debacle and a quick look through this thread is exactly why 

Click to expand...

I assume that you have proof or any evidence that Biden is arrogant, vile and obnoxious?  It just so happens that there is a mountain of fact and evidence that demonstrates without a scintilla of doubt that Trump does indeed merit such epithets.  He's also a bigoted, sexist, bare-faced liar.  See most recently Trump suggesting to Sarah Huckabee Sanders that she should take one for the country and sleep with Kim Jong-un.  Now whether you wish to believe someone who spent a good couple of years taking one for the President by lying continuously and quite absurdly - well that is up to the individual.


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The wall was never a red herring. It was core to his campaign.  If you recall why this thread has the title it has.  I started it (the original one) on the back of Trump's pre-election speech when he railed against, and ranted about, immigrants and the Mexican Border...during which he exclaimed '...what the hell is gong on?'
		
Click to expand...

Which bit of IMO did you miss. Are you suggesting that prior to Trump that no effort was made on building a barrier between Mexico and USA.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Which bit of IMO did you miss. Are you suggesting that prior to Trump that no effort was made on building a barrier between Mexico and USA.
		
Click to expand...

Of course I'm not - but Trump made massive play of building a NEW and VERY STRONG and POWERFUL wall (and getting Mexico to pay for it) to keep the immigrants out.  And so today we find that his efforts in building NEW stretches of wall have not amounted to much more than a hill of refried beans. Well at least that means that the American taxpayer is not too much out of pocket as I don't believe the Mexicans are paying anything towards any new or replacement wall-building work.


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## DanFST (Sep 3, 2020)

More fantastic journalism


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## Robster59 (Sep 3, 2020)

If he had his way it would be Dictator Trump.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

Whatever next. 

Trump publicly encourages voters in North Carolina to try and vote twice - an offence you might imagine - and you'd be correct.  And you might think that the countries most senior individual in the Dept of Justice might not be too keen on such an illegality - might want to stamp down on it unhesitatingly.

And so A.G. Barr was asked - and - well - the head of the DoJ was unwilling to confirm that voting twice - or indeed even trying to vote twice - was an offence; and further he refused to confirm that _encouraging _ individuals to commit an electoral offence might be, in itself, an offence.

Nope.  From A.G Barr - Nothing other than evasion...   

Really makes you wonder...what the heck is going on in AG Barr's mind.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever next.

Trump publicly encourages voters in North Carolina to try and vote twice - an offence you might imagine - and you'd be correct.  And you might think that the countries most senior individual in the Dept of Justice might not be too keen on such an illegality - might want to stamp down on it unhesitatingly.

And so A.G. Barr was asked - and - well - the head of the DoJ was unwilling to confirm that voting twice - or indeed even trying to vote twice - was an offence; and further he refused to confirm that _encouraging _ individuals to commit an electoral offence might be, in itself, an offence.

Nope.  From A.G Barr - Nothing other than evasion...  

Really makes you wonder...what the heck is going on in AG Barr's mind. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022

Click to expand...

Listening to the piece you put up it appears that only one vote will count. They have had issues with postal votes in the past so if only one vote will count I’m not sure if your expressing false outrage or you never listened to the piece.


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## GreiginFife (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever next.

Trump publicly encourages voters in North Carolina to try and vote twice - an offence you might imagine - and you'd be correct.  And you might think that the countries most senior individual in the Dept of Justice might not be too keen on such an illegality - might want to stamp down on it unhesitatingly.

And so A.G. Barr was asked - and - well - the head of the DoJ was unwilling to confirm that voting twice - or indeed even trying to vote twice - was an offence; and further he refused to confirm that _encouraging _ individuals to commit an electoral offence might be, in itself, an offence.

Nope.  From A.G Barr - Nothing other than evasion...  

Really makes you wonder...what the heck is going on in AG Barr's mind. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022

Click to expand...

I am by no means a fan of what I believe to be a very unstable and very dangerous character but this is misrepresentation at it's worst. At no point does he say go vote twice. He urges people to check that mail in votes have been counted. And IF, repeat, IF NOT, then to vote. 
See, the problem with utter crap like this is that it actually does harm to the chances of him being ousted, it actually gives him more credence and credibility to hit back at media and journalists as hacks BECAUSE of things like this and people like you lapping it up. 

At worst, Trumpo is guilty of making a point very badly, a little rambly, but to then make the claim he is inciting people to vote twice from it is a stretch at best. And it's only because of your clear hatred of him that you see it that way, they have successfully triggered your bias to agree with their point. And they will do that time and again.

As with most things political that you have disdain for, please, for all of our sakes, please just take a step back, take the blinkers off for a minute and ask yourself "does that seem right?" when you read stuff like this.


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2020)

Dont spoil his twisted sence of fun.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



More fantastic journalism

Click to expand...

That is literally the definition of “Fake News” and people lap it up!

.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

Have any of you actually listened to what Trump said?  He encouraged votes of North Carolina to try and vote twice.  Spin it whatever way you want - but that is what he said.  And A.G. Barr when questioned about it did not disagree that that is what he said.

Yes - Trump is trying to get evidence that mail-in voting could be open to electoral fraud -  and he is clearly suggesting that one way to do that would be were his supporters to try and do it in a poll prior to the GE.

Lest you just consider it typical leftie-BBC stuff then try this...yes - typical leftie-CNN...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/03/...ina-officials-voting-twice-warning/index.html


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301299333938151424


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## Fade and Die (Sep 3, 2020)

I am always surprised by the sheer ignorance of many of Trump’s critics. In 2016, (And earlier on this thread) there was a lot of squealing about Trump getting less votes nationally than Clinton – completely ignoring the fact that the US is a federal republic and the electoral college was specifically designed to stop the larger states riding roughshod over the wishes of the smaller....There is also a lack of understanding about the limited power of the presidency in the US system of government and that Trump is not the emperor of America. 
More than this, the United States is a deeply democratic and decentralised country with enormous power in the hands of the states, counties and cities (far more power than, say, the Scottish county council has 😁). The whole point of their system is to stop the accumulation of power in the hands of one person. Anyone comparing Trump’s America to Nazi Germany is merely demonstrating their own breathtaking ignorance of the past.


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## GreiginFife (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have any of you actually listened to what Trump said?  He encouraged votes of North Carolina to try and vote twice.  Spin it whatever way you want - but that is what he said.  And A.G. Barr when questioned about it did not disagree that that is what he said.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, have you? He DOES NOT encourage people to vote twice. The only spin is what you are trying desperately to put on it. Your blinkers know no bounds. Barr does not agree or disagree, but you can only process that one way. 

I despise trump but even I can see its a stitch up job.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I am by no means a fan of what I believe to be a very unstable and very dangerous character but this is misrepresentation at it's worst. At no point does he say go vote twice. He urges people to check that mail in votes have been counted. And IF, repeat, IF NOT, then to vote.
See, the problem with utter crap like this is that it actually does harm to the chances of him being ousted, it actually gives him more credence and credibility to hit back at media and journalists as hacks BECAUSE of things like this and people like you lapping it up.

At worst, Trumpo is guilty of making a point very badly, a little rambly, but to then make the claim he is inciting people to vote twice from it is a stretch at best. And it's only because of your clear hatred of him that you see it that way, they have successfully triggered your bias to agree with their point. And they will do that time and again.

As with most things political that you have disdain for, please, for all of our sakes, please just take a step back, take the blinkers off for a minute and ask yourself "does that seem right?" when you read stuff like this.
		
Click to expand...

BTW - Hate is personal.  I _hate_ no-one.


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## GreiginFife (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTW - Hate is personal.  I _hate_ no-one.
		
Click to expand...

Edited
Actually, you know what? It's not even worth arguing with someone like you. You just choose to see the point of view you want and that's that. I'm out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Yes, have you? He DOES NOT encourage people to vote twice. The only spin is what you are trying desperately to put on it. Your blinkers know no bounds. Barr does not agree or disagree, but you can only process that one way.

I despise trump but even I can see its a stitch up job.
		
Click to expand...

Barr refuses to agree with the interviewer that individuals deliberately trying to vote twice would see them trying to commit an illegal act - indeed even trying to vote twice could be illegal.  Why would he do that unless he reckoned that Trump could be on dodgy ground in suggesting voters try to do so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Edited
Actually, you know what? It's not even worth arguing with someone like you. You just choose to see the point of view you want and that's that. I'm out.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough.


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Barr refuses to agree with the interviewer that individuals deliberately trying to vote twice would see them trying to commit an illegal act - indeed even trying to vote twice could be illegal.  Why would he do that unless he reckoned that Trump could be on dodgy ground in suggesting voters try to do so.
		
Click to expand...

So this is about Barr and his response, nothing to do with Trump.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Sep 3, 2020)

If Donald Trump weren't a racist, a xenophobe, a misogynist, a pathological liar, a fascist, and corrupt beyond words, I'd still have a seething hatred for the cretin on general principle.
I've removed everybody who doesn't hate him sufficiently---which is to say completely--from my life, and suspect that I'll never regret that.

Have you guys decided o give the troglodyte the Open, by the way?


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			If Donald Trump weren't a racist, a xenophobe, a misogynist, a pathological liar, a fascist, and corrupt beyond words, I'd still have a seething hatred for the cretin on general principle.
I've removed everybody who doesn't hate him sufficiently---which is to say completely--from my life, and suspect that I'll never regret that.

Have you guys decided o give the troglodyte the Open, by the way?
		
Click to expand...

I doubt the R&A would ever countenance the dog and pony show that would result with Trump lording it over the venerable old Open. Nor would they ever etch the word Trump onto the Claret Jug.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Sep 3, 2020)

Adoro quei gemelli.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I doubt the R&A would ever countenance the dog and pony show that would result with Trump lording it over the venerable old Open. Nor would they ever etch the word Trump onto the Claret Jug.
		
Click to expand...

In my eyes that would be the death of the Open


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2020)

Sport across the board continues to show it sells its soul to the devil and will do anything for money.


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Sport across the board continues to show it sells its soul to the devil and will do anything for money.
		
Click to expand...

Well until such times as the Open has a name sponsor, they won't be pandering to Trump or other course owners. Pity, I hear Turnberry is really good now.


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## Beezerk (Sep 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Adoro quei gemelli.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't he play for Leeds?


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## bobmac (Sep 4, 2020)

I understand that you can't vote twice, once as yourself and again for your dog, cat or dead granny as that would count as 2 seperate votes.

But you have 2 ways to vote, by post or in person.
So you vote early by post, then you go in person to the poll station, you check if your vote has been registered. If it has been registered, you wont be able to vote again. But if your postal vote is hi-jacked, then you could vote. But at the end of the day, your vote only counts once.
It's my opinion that it would only be illegal if you tried to vote twice if you were using 2 different ID numbers because it would be counted twice.
Trump was only saying this to suggest that the opposition were trying to hi-jack the postal votes.

@SILH, please see post no. 1358


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## Grant85 (Sep 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I am always surprised by the sheer ignorance of many of Trump’s critics. In 2016, (And earlier on this thread) there was a lot of squealing about Trump getting less votes nationally than Clinton – completely ignoring the fact that the US is a federal republic and the electoral college was specifically designed to stop the larger states riding roughshod over the wishes of the smaller....There is also a lack of understanding about the limited power of the presidency in the US system of government and that Trump is not the emperor of America.
More than this, the United States is a deeply democratic and decentralised country with enormous power in the hands of the states, counties and cities (far more power than, say, the Scottish county council has 😁). The whole point of their system is to stop the accumulation of power in the hands of one person. Anyone comparing Trump’s America to Nazi Germany is merely demonstrating their own breathtaking ignorance of the past.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of what Trump has done is straight out of the Hitler playbook, in terms of getting into power legitimately but removing checks and balances once he's there. 

Also he has massively lowered the bar on what is acceptable actions for people holding public office. Whether he wins or not in 8 weeks time, the past 4 years have been damaging to politics around the world. 

Democracy has, in the main, been constructed in such a way that it prevents extremists or hugely polarising figures from getting into high office. Especially in the US 2 party system where the president has, in the main, to appeal to a large section of moderates who will decide the direction of the presidency. 4 years ago enough of those moderates decided they just couldn't press the button for Hillary Clinton. 

Perhaps when all is said and done, Hillary Clinton was the only realistic Democratic candidate that could have lost to Donald Trump - I hope Joe Biden doesn't disprove that theory. 4 years ago we were in a similar position, but perhaps after 4 years of lunacy, the moderates will now realise that they have to turn up this time.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2020)

I feel he will get back in as the US is generally one of the more 'individualistic' nations.  So whilst I expect many more people like Biden over Trump personally, in the end they will not vote for Biden enough as they get caught up in the Biden=socialism argument.  So he'll raise your taxes, the cities will be unsafe etc etc. And although we mostly laugh at the idea of Biden being a socialist as he could have fitted in to most conservative governments prior to this one, over in the US I'd argue that tactic may well work.


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## bobmac (Sep 5, 2020)

Has Trump had a few days off?
The daily rants seem to be missing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever next.

Trump publicly encourages voters in North Carolina to try and vote twice - an offence you might imagine - and you'd be correct.  And you might think that the countries most senior individual in the Dept of Justice might not be too keen on such an illegality - might want to stamp down on it unhesitatingly.

And so A.G. Barr was asked - and - well - the head of the DoJ was unwilling to confirm that voting twice - or indeed even trying to vote twice - was an offence; and further he refused to confirm that _encouraging _ individuals to commit an electoral offence might be, in itself, an offence.

Nope.  From A.G Barr - Nothing other than evasion...  

Really makes you wonder...what the heck is going on in AG Barr's mind. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54011022

Click to expand...

Having read the news item, I'm wary of who is reporting what here and why about what he said  exactly,and, why and what he meant.
AFAICS, Barr was asked what Trump meant and Barr said he didn't exactly know.

You *know* of course, because you believe every claim and report made by Trump's opponents or the anti Press.
I don't know the truth of it, but I gather, reading his reported first quote, that he is suggesting that if you vote by mail, and then go to physically vote, that you likely will get away with it, whereas if the system worked , you shouldn't be able to do the second vote.
Even you have to admit that he has said postal voting is open to abuse and shouldn't be allowed?
So, why did he say "go vote twice" ?  It might reasonably be in order to support his claim of fraud possibility in mail voting.
Or it might be to get more votes for himself ( really?)

And your bald opening sentence, I suspect, is exactly written in order to give the impression of the latter.
Mischievous, to put it mildly.


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## gmc40 (Sep 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Has Trump had a few days off?
The daily rants seem to be missing.  

Click to expand...

Nah he’s back now. This story has kept him quite busy;

https://www.google.com.mt/amp/s/www...litary-service-members-losers-suckers-report/


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## Kaz (Sep 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I understand that you can't vote twice, once as yourself and again for your dog, cat or dead granny as that would count as 2 seperate votes.

But you have 2 ways to vote, by post or in person.
So you vote early by post, then you go in person to the poll station, you check if your vote has been registered. If it has been registered, you wont be able to vote again. But if your postal vote is hi-jacked, then you could vote. But at the end of the day, your vote only counts once.
It's my opinion that it would only be illegal if you tried to vote twice if you were using 2 different ID numbers because it would be counted twice.
Trump was only saying this to suggest that the opposition were trying to hi-jack the postal votes.

@SILH, please see post no. 1358
		
Click to expand...

Trump's losing, badly, and he knows it. Much of what he's doing now, including this line of chat, is all about casting aspersions over the legitimacy of the result. He's clearly not going to accept the result. America is screwed.


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## Hoganman1 (Sep 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Trump's losing, badly, and he knows it. Much of what he's doing now, including this line of chat, is all about casting aspersions over the legitimacy of the result. He's clearly not going to accept the result. America is screwed.
		
Click to expand...

You're right, we are screwed. Even if he loses and they have to drag him out of 1600, he has already unleashed a bunch of horrible people. It will take a long time to push these cockroaches back into the woodwork. Biden is going to have to put some of the McCain Republicans in his administration.  He'll need their help to hold off Fox News, Limbaugh, Breitbart, Russia, The KKK and Qanon.


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I understand that you can't vote twice, once as yourself and again for your dog, cat or dead granny as that would count as 2 seperate votes.

But you have 2 ways to vote, by post or in person.
So you vote early by post, then you go in person to the poll station, you check if your vote has been registered. If it has been registered, you wont be able to vote again. But if your postal vote is hi-jacked, then you could vote. But at the end of the day, your vote only counts once.
It's my opinion that it would only be illegal if you tried to vote twice if you were using 2 different ID numbers because it would be counted twice.
Trump was only saying this to suggest that the opposition were trying to hi-jack the postal votes.
...
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe that what Trump was saying was anything other than encouraging 'his' voters to ensure that their vote counts. Nothing in what he said encourages 'double voting', but DOES encourage his voters to ensure that their vote counts - something he'll claim was 'stolen' from his supporters if (hopefully 'when'!) he loses.
It does, of course, negate the entire purpose of those voters that are using Postal Votes to avoid the pandemic-related danger of going to 'crowded' poling stations to vote in person!
And, somewhat surprisingly, I note that something like 25% of votes were Postal ones last election (2016), so 'the system' seems to run pretty smoothly and, while there's an expectation of a significant increase in postal voting, it should 'scale' sufficiently to work fine.


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## Kaz (Sep 7, 2020)

Hoganman1 said:



			You're right, we are screwed. Even if he loses and they have to drag him out of 1600, he has already unleashed a bunch of horrible people. It will take a long time to push these cockroaches back into the woodwork. Biden is going to have to put some of the McCain Republicans in his administration.  He'll need their help to hold off Fox News, Limbaugh, Breitbart, Russia, The KKK and Qanon.
		
Click to expand...

Wrong answer, I’m afraid. There should be no place in public life for any republicans going forward - they’ve shown us who they are and that should not be forgotten or forgiven.

Their entire party must be voted out at every level. It’d be an absolute betrayal for Biden to bring them into his administration.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

Trump will still win..

The problem with all the 'intelligent' people is that they think people are too stupid to vote Trump.. . So they dont wont vote, while the so called 'stupid' turn up in numbers to cast their vote.   That is how democracy works.  if you want soemthing, then go out and vote for it.   we saw it last time with Trump (and dare i say Brexit).  If Trump wins, the world may go down in flames.. but all of us will have to suck it in and wait another 4 years (or was it 12)


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Trump will still win..

The problem with all the 'intelligent' people is that they think people are too stupid to vote Trump.. . So they dont wont vote, while the so called 'stupid' turn up in numbers to cast their vote.   That is how democracy works.  *if you want soemthing, then go out and vote for it*...)
		
Click to expand...

That's a huge generalisation that is occasionally, but not routinely, correct. But I doubt that it is in this case. 'Intelligent' people recognise the correctness - at least of logic, if not spelling - of the bold bit!


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## IanM (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Trump will still win..

The problem with all the 'intelligent' people is that they think people are too stupid to vote Trump.. . So they dont wont vote, while the so called 'stupid' turn up in numbers to cast their vote.   That is how democracy works.  if you want soemthing, then go out and vote for it.   we saw it last time with Trump (and dare i say Brexit).  If Trump wins, the world may go down in flames.. but all of us will have to suck it in and wait another 4 years (or was it 12)
		
Click to expand...


I am not sure why political groups often fail to get this point.  It is simple.  (and I am not applying it to any faction either)  Maybe it is because both sides of an argument only surround themselves with allies and fail to engage and debate properly with the other.  Even if they do, there appears to be an avoidance of the actual issue.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

IanM said:



			I am not sure why political groups often fail to get this point.  It is simple.  (and I am not applying it to any faction either)  Maybe it is because both sides of an argument only surround themselves with allies and fail to engage and debate properly with the other.  Even if they do, there appears to be an avoidance of the actual issue.
		
Click to expand...

Choices are very binary... Politiicians on both side make it an us-v-them debate ..  Can you imagine that a so-called Rich and privileged person like Trump used an anti-establishment platform for his last election.  He wanted to drain the swamp, but so far has only added more crocodiles to it..   He sold them a deal and now Republicans have no other platform other than 'elect Trump'.   As they sometimes say, those who vote for this dream have been the hardest hit.  rural american has been hit the hardest under trump. 

The problem will not go away, since the intelligentsia will say it was 'their choice'...  Biden will need to reach out to them and heal america.  Trump cant heal, so he will turn up the heat by being even more polarising.   the big question is ... if you get rid of the third of the extreme right and the third of the extreme left... where does Middle America stand?  Will they vote and if so who will they vote for?


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## IanM (Sep 7, 2020)

Quite so... but Biden and Co are equally "rich and privileged."   And you are right about additional crocodiles.  As my dad used to say, "They are all no blooming good!"


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## User62651 (Sep 7, 2020)

Turnout was 55.7% for the 2016 Presidenial Election. Pretty low but pretty normal, it hasn't topped 60% since 1968. For the 'land of the free' that seems very low. Or perhaps Republican v Democrat isn't much of a choice - right verus a little bit less right so people aren't motivated to vote?

Normally it is the people seeking change who turnout in bigger numbers than those seeking the status quo, despite that I have an inkling Trump will sneak it again but hope i'm wrong.

Wouldn't surprise me if Ivanka runs in 2024 then another Trump after that, a new clan of Kennedy's or Bush's.


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## banjofred (Sep 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Normally it is the people seeking change who turnout in bigger numbers than those seeking the status quo, despite that I have an inkling Trump will sneak it again but hope i'm wrong.
		
Click to expand...

This is what I've never understood about the youth vote. The youth want change, yet don't vote in as big a % as the older voters.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 8, 2020)

Closed as per Mike's post of 8/9/2020 banning political threads (see top of OOB)


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