# New WHS



## Funladygolfer (Apr 15, 2021)

I have been told that my WHS index is what I play off at my own course and I only changes when I play at different courses, however I have also been told that I look up my WHS index even at my own course so now im completely confused, help!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

Funladygolfer said:



			I have been told that my WHS index is what I play off at my own course and I only changes when I play at different courses, however I have also been told that I look up my WHS index even at my own course so now im completely confused, help!
		
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Your handicap index is a base line number. You then need to apply that against the chart at ANY club, including your own. The last comment made to you is correct.

So, to simplify, next time you play at your club, or any club, look at the chart for that course (likely to be found by the 1st tee or possibly attached to the clubhouse), look at your own HI and it will tell you what your on course handicap will be.

If I have not made that clear please reply and I will try again another way or someone else will respond in a better way


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## Funladygolfer (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Your handicap index is a base line number. You then need to apply that against the chart at ANY club, including your own. The last comment made to you is correct.

So, to simplify, next time you play at your club, or any club, look at the chart for that course (likely to be found by the 1st tee or possibly attached to the clubhouse), look at your own HI and it will tell you what your on course handicap will be.

If I have not made that clear please reply and I will try again another way or someone else will respond in a better way 

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Yes thats great thanks for your reply 😀


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## Funladygolfer (Apr 15, 2021)

Funladygolfer said:



			Yes thats great thanks for your reply 😀
		
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## rosecott (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Your handicap index is a base line number. You then need to apply that against the chart at ANY club, including your own. The last comment made to you is correct.

So, to simplify, next time you play at your club, or any club, look at the chart for that course (likely to be found by the 1st tee or possibly attached to the clubhouse), look at your own HI and it will tell you what your on course handicap will be.

If I have not made that clear please reply and I will try again another way or someone else will respond in a better way 

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You forgot the additional complication of Playing Handicap and 95%


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

rosecott said:



			You forgot the additional complication of Playing Handicap and 95%

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Deliberately . One step at a time.

The OP did not post in what circumstances they would be playing, social, individual comp, pairs, team etc so I did not want to add another layer of confusion. You are absolutely right though, it is something that will have to be crossed at some point. I'll leave that to the next person (I'm not 100% on that myself yet )


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

For starters:

*Handicap Index*
The measure of a player’s demonstrated ability calculated against the Slope Rating
of a golf course of standard playing difficulty (that is, a course with a Slope Rating
of 113) (see Rule 5.2).

*Course Handicap*
The number of handicap strokes a player receives, before handicap allowances,
from a specific set of tees as determined by the Slope Rating (see Rule 6.1).

*Handicap Allowance*
The percentage of a Course Handicap recommended to create equity for all players
participating in a specific format of play (see Appendix C).

*Playing Handicap*
The Course Handicap adjusted for any handicap allowances or Terms of the
Competition. It represents the actual number of strokes the player gives or
receives for the round being played (see Rule 6.2).


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## Funladygolfer (Apr 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			For starters:

*Handicap Index*
The measure of a player’s demonstrated ability calculated against the Slope Rating
of a golf course of standard playing difficulty (that is, a course with a Slope Rating
of 113) (see Rule 5.2).

*Course Handicap*
The number of handicap strokes a player receives, before handicap allowances,
from a specific set of tees as determined by the Slope Rating (see Rule 6.1).

*Handicap Allowance*
The percentage of a Course Handicap recommended to create equity for all players
participating in a specific format of play (see Appendix C).

*Playing Handicap*
The Course Handicap adjusted for any handicap allowances or Terms of the
Competition. It represents the actual number of strokes the player gives or
receives for the round being played (see Rule 6.2).
		
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## Funladygolfer (Apr 15, 2021)

Ok I’m reading these replies bearing in mind I’m not a beginner but I am unsure of the new rules,  so that being said, when I play in a singles stroke play at my own club will I play off my handicap index or do I look it up on the chart at my golf club and play off the handicap on the chart


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## IanM (Apr 15, 2021)

Plain English version of the above...

*Handicap Index*
Your handicap! - but you need to go through the rest of the waffle to find out many shots you get!!  
*Course Handicap*
Your handicap allowance for THE COURSE AND TEES you are playing that day!  (look it up on the big chart on the wall at the club  )    _*This is the main difference to the new process!! *_
*Handicap Allowance*
You get a different % of course handicap depending on format of play...  (as before but the percentages have changed in some formats!)
*Playing Handicap*
The actual number of strokes the player gives or receives


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## IanM (Apr 15, 2021)

Funladygolfer said:



			Ok I’m reading these replies bearing in mind I’m not a beginner but I am unsure of the new rules,  so that being said, when I play in a singles stroke play at my own club will I play off my handicap index or do I look it up on the chart at my golf club and play off the handicap on the chart
		
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you look it up on the chart... then apply the appropriate % allowance depending on the format you are playing.  Once you've done it you'll understand.   The explanation is actually worse than the reality.


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

Funladygolfer said:



			Ok I’m reading these replies bearing in mind I’m not a beginner but I am unsure of the new rules,  so that being said, when I play in a singles stroke play at my own club will I play off my handicap index or do I look it up on the chart at my golf club and play off the handicap on the chart
		
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You never play off your *Handicap Index* at any course. That is a course neutral figure.
You get your *Course Handicap* from the chart for the course and tees that you are going to play.

You then need to check the *Handicap Allowance* for the format you are going to play. Which is 95% for singles medal/stableford. 85% for 4BBB.
Multiply your *Course Handicap* by the *Handicap Allowance* and that is your *Playing Handicap*

*Playing Handicap *is used to determine the competition results and *Course Handicap* is used to update the WHS and any change to your *Handicap Index*

But be aware. Depending on your Course Handicap you may find your Playing Handicap is stroke or so lower. If playing Stableford remember to use your *Course Handicap* to determine when you have run out of strokes and can pick up. Do *not* use your *Playing Handicap*.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

Funladygolfer said:



			Ok I’m reading these replies bearing in mind I’m not a beginner but I am unsure of the new rules,  so that being said, when I play in a singles stroke play at my own club will I play off my handicap index or do I look it up on the chart at my golf club and play off the handicap on the chart
		
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I've copied a table from a random club.

Your name suggests you are female so let's take it that you are playing off the Red tees, adjust if not.

Let's give you a HI of 14.6. That would give you on course handicap of 17.

That should have been the end of it but the powers that be thought that would be too easy. Sooooooo

In strokeplay or Stableford you then get 95% allowance so you actually get 16 shots in your competition.

14.6 to 17 to 16 . I hope this makes sense


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			You never play off your *Handicap Index* at any course. That is a course neutral figure.
You get your *Course Handicap* from the chart for the course and tees that you are going to play.

You then need to check the *Handicap Allowance* for the format you are going to play. Which is 95% for singles medal/stableford. 85% for 4BBB.
Multiply your *Course Handicap* by the *Handicap Allowance* and that is your *Playing Handicap*

*Playing Handicap *is used to determine the competition results and *Course Handicap* is used to update the WHS and any change to your *Handicap Index*

But be aware. Depending on your Course Handicap you may find your Playing Handicap is stroke or so lower. If playing Stableford remember to use your *Course Handicap* to determine when you have run out of strokes and can pick up. Do *not* use your *Playing Handicap*.
		
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It is hard to understand why so many are confused by WHS


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

Funladygolfer said:



*I have been told that my WHS index is what I play off at my own course *and I only changes when I play at different courses,

In plain English

Your *Handicap Index *remains the same wherever you play in the world
		
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## Funladygolfer (Apr 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			You never play off your *Handicap Index* at any course. That is a course neutral figure.
You get your *Course Handicap* from the chart for the course and tees that you are going to play.

You then need to check the *Handicap Allowance* for the format you are going to play. Which is 95% for singles medal/stableford. 85% for 4BBB.
Multiply your *Course Handicap* by the *Handicap Allowance* and that is your *Playing Handicap*

*Playing Handicap *is used to determine the competition results and *Course Handicap* is used to update the WHS and any change to your *Handicap Index*

But be aware. Depending on your Course Handicap you may find your Playing Handicap is stroke or so lower. If playing Stableford remember to use your *Course Handicap* to determine when you have run out of strokes and can pick up. Do *not* use your *Playing Handicap*.
		
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Thank you very much that is really helpful 😊


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## IanM (Apr 15, 2021)

"If playing Stableford remember to use your *Course Handicap* to determine when you have run out of strokes and can pick up. Do *not* use your *Playing Handicap*."


HELP!!   since the Covid "lay off" I have forgotten why this is the case!


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			"If playing Stableford remember to use your *Course Handicap* to determine when you have run out of strokes and can pick up. Do *not* use your *Playing Handicap*."


HELP!!   since the Covid "lay off" I have forgotten why this is the case!
		
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Your PH may be lower than your CH and net double bogey relates to your CH when doing 
If your CH is 12 and your PH is 11, you get a shot on stroke hole 12 for your resultant WHS Handicap Index calculation but not for your competition score.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 15, 2021)

Can everyone remember when it was just your handicap and that was it

A system that works changed to a system that has most people scratching their heads - it’s going to take a while for it all to sink in.


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can everyone remember when it was just your handicap and that was it

A system that works changed to a system that has most people scratching their heads - it’s going to take a while for it all to sink in.
		
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Possibly because introducing an element of fairness has upset many.


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## IanM (Apr 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Your PH may be lower than your CH and net double bogey relates to your CH when doing
If your CH is 12 and your PH is 11, you get a shot on stroke hole 12 for your resultant WHS Handicap Index calculation but not for your competition score.
		
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In short.  Handicap adjustment is made off CH not PH.  Logical but another level of complexity, that should have been designed out of it.

I don't know anyone who doesn't frequent these or similar pages, who even knows about this.


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			In short.  Handicap adjustment is made off CH not PH.  Logical but another level of complexity, that should have been designed out of it.

I don't know anyone who doesn't frequent these or similar pages, who even knows about this.
		
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Then they haven't been reading the stuff EG has been pumping out to players who actually bothered to register with EG when the CDH was introduced or they were given a CDH ID.
Or not bothered to read what their club was supposed to send out (if the club bothered).

Before WHS the USGA and Golf Australia had the allowance built in to the base calculation. This mean that it applied to matchplay as well as strokeplay. The problem was that although the stats showed that in general higher handicap players tended to win strokeplay competitions disproportionally to the number of entrants, the obverse was true in matchplay where 55% or so of matches were won by the higher handicap player (a situation that CONGU recognised). So the 'fix' was fixed.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

I’m not sure why the everyday player is that confused unless they haven’t either bothered to read what has been sent out or clubs haven’t assisted them.

Its no more confusing than trying to explain to players SSS and CSS & why 36 points wasn’t going to give them a cut.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			In short.  Handicap adjustment is made off CH not PH.  Logical but another level of complexity, that should have been designed out of it.

I don't know anyone who doesn't frequent these or similar pages, who even knows about this.
		
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Don't get the confusion myself 

Completely ignore playing handicap 

Look up course handicap 

Write the gross scores down ..

Let the computer work out the comp results


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## IanM (Apr 15, 2021)

Thats precisely the point.  Maybe you're not understanding the difference between "Volume of stuff pumped out" and materials targeted at its audience. 

Club members and casual golfers are generally a very different audience from Committee members and (wannabe) referees.


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## IanM (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Don't get the confusion myself

Completely ignore playing handicap

Look up course handicap

Write the gross scores down ..

Let the computer work out the comp results
		
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Indeed.  Showed my wife this thread as she's playing her first WHS comp tomorrow.  

She laughed out loud.  She's been told to mark her card gross,  photo it on her phone and WhatsApp it to the sec for keying and scoring!

They are not even keying it in


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I’m not sure why the everyday player is that confused unless they haven’t either bothered to read what has been sent out or clubs haven’t assisted them.

Its no more confusing than trying to explain to players SSS and CSS & why 36 points wasn’t going to give them a cut.
		
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To be fair, WHS replaces CSS with PCC. WHS adds to confusion regarding adjustment, because players don't know whether their Index will go up, stay the same or go down. They can shoot a terrible score, index stays the same. They can shoot a great score, index could go up. That is more confusing 

But, at the most basic level, they now have triple the number of "handicaps", one of which changes for every course, the other that changes depending on format. That is not simpler than one handicap, with the most confusing thing usually remembering 90% the diff in fourball matchplay. 

There will always be confusion, as there will always be new members who will see it for 1st time. Most on this forum understand it, as it is in our nature to find out. Most of us are golf nerds sadly. But, most club golfers have no interest in researching, they just want to play golf and not have to mess about converting one number into another and then multiplying the result by a percentage


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			Indeed.    She's been told to mark her card gross,
		
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This is what we have been trying to stress to players. 

All we want to see on the card is just one players gross score in their column with the markers gross score in the markers column.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			This is what we have been trying to stress to players. 

All we want to see on the card is just one players gross score in their column with the markers gross score in the markers column.
		
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Followed this advice Tuesday 

Added in my head the stableford so I knew My score 

Handed in the card and let the pc do the work


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Followed this advice Tuesday

Added in my head the stableford so I knew My score

Handed in the card and let the pc do the work
		
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_All we want to see on the card is just one players gross score in their column with the markers gross score in the markers column._ 

But what did the stableford score tell you? Was 35 or 37 a good score on that course? It's the differential which tells you how you played today.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



_All we want to see on the card is just one players gross score in their column with the markers gross score in the markers column._ 

But what did the stableford score tell you? Was 35 or 37 a good score on that course? It's the differential which tells you how you played today.
		
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To be fair the stableford told me I won lol 41 points was enough


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

Next to our slope board there is a board that shows all the mandatory HC allowances with nice charts showing the different % values, no maths required, just the ability to read (and follow instructions) which is obviously WHS down fall.


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## jim8flog (Apr 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Next to our slope board there is a board that shows all the mandatory HC allowances with nice charts showing the different % values, no maths required, just the ability to read (and follow instructions) which is obviously WHS down fall.
		
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 I was reminded this week of being being questioned in the locker room about card procedures etc by a person standing next to the notice detailing it all.


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## rulefan (Apr 16, 2021)

I produced a small table showing the 90% and 85% adjustment for ranges of CH and suggested it be attached to the main chart. But our manager said it would make the 1st tee area look untidy but agreed to put copies in the proshop window and Ladies' locker room ???


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## wjemather (Apr 16, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I produced a small table showing the 90% and 85% adjustment for ranges of CH and suggested it be attached to the main chart. But our manager said it would make the 1st tee area look untidy but agreed to put copies in the proshop window and Ladies' locker room ???
		
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I have done the same, but unfortunately there is nowhere to put them at the moment - just waiting on the club to get noticeboard(s) installed in a suitable spot on the side of the proshop/clubhouse on the way to the course.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I have done the same, but unfortunately there is nowhere to put them at the moment - just waiting on the club to get noticeboard(s) installed in a suitable spot on the side of the proshop/clubhouse on the way to the course.
		
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Ours are produced by Eagle and are metal waterproof and exactly the same as the slope boards and are fitted to the outside wall of the club house


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## wjemather (Apr 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Ours are produced by Eagle and are metal waterproof and exactly the same as the slope boards and are fitted to the outside wall of the club house
		
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All our tables are printed on paper as everything is likely to change when we get re-rated (supposedly this summer). I don't see that approach changing after then either, since "permanent" boards need replacing every time CONGU decide to change something (e.g. if/when CR-Par gets included in the CH calculation).


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

wjemather said:



			All our tables are printed on paper as everything is likely to change when we get re-rated (supposedly this summer). I don't see that approach changing after then either, since "permanent" boards need replacing every time CONGU decide to change something (e.g. if/when CR-Par gets included in the CH calculation).
		
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Luckily our county stood the initial cost of these for all clubs as they felt that due to the lack of use from last years affiliation fees they would pay for it all.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

wjemather said:



			All our tables are printed on paper as everything is likely to change when we get re-rated (supposedly this summer). I don't see that approach changing after then either, since "permanent" boards need replacing every time CONGU decide to change something (e.g. if/when CR-Par gets included in the CH calculation).
		
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Are you being re-rated or was the initial rating not actually done


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## jim8flog (Apr 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Ours are produced by Eagle and are metal waterproof and exactly the same as the slope boards and are fitted to the outside wall of the club house
		
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 Ours are the same

they can be seen on their home page 

https://www.eagle.uk.com/


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## wjemather (Apr 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Are you being re-rated or was the initial rating not actually done
		
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We are due for routine re-rating.


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## rulefan (Apr 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Ours are the same

they can be seen on their home page

https://www.eagle.uk.com/

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I can't see any CH to PH (90% & 85%) conversion tables.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

wjemather said:



			We are due for routine re-rating.
		
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That’s come around quick, we were first done in Devon (2 years ago) and not expecting anyone anytime soon.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I can't see any CH to PH (90% & 85%) conversion tables.
		
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Far end


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## nickjdavis (Apr 16, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I can't see any CH to PH (90% & 85%) conversion tables.
		
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Its on the main Eagle golf front page but due to depth of field its a bit blurred.

Here is a pic I took of one at a local course..


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## rulefan (Apr 17, 2021)

Thanks but because of the shadow I can't make out the column headings.


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Thanks but because of the shadow I can't make out the column headings.
		
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There the % difference


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## jim8flog (Apr 17, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Thanks but because of the shadow I can't make out the column headings.
		
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## rulefan (Apr 17, 2021)

Thanks. 
But shouldn't the table heading be PLAYING HANDICAP rather than HANDICAP ALLOWANCE


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Thanks.
But shouldn't the table heading be PLAYING HANDICAP rather than HANDICAP ALLOWANCE
		
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Not really as it shows what your allowance is from your course handicap IMO


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## jim8flog (Apr 17, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Thanks.
But shouldn't the table heading be PLAYING HANDICAP rather than HANDICAP ALLOWANCE
		
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 See post #45

I just showed the relevant portion to your #46 post


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## wjemather (Apr 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not really as it shows what your allowance is from your course handicap IMO
		
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It seems to me that (without clarification) these tables could confuse matters as they don't take into account formats for which the playing handicap is unrounded prior to totalling, e.g. mixed-tee, foursomes, greensomes, scramble, etc.


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## rulefan (Apr 17, 2021)

wjemather said:



			formats for which the playing handicap is unrounded prior to totalling, e.g. mixed-tee, foursomes, greensomes, scramble, etc.
		
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Where is that spelled out?


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## wjemather (Apr 18, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Where is that spelled out?
		
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It's made clear in the examples given in CONGU's guidance.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

wjemather said:



			It seems to me that (without clarification) these tables could confuse matters as they don't take into account formats for which the playing handicap is unrounded prior to totalling, e.g. mixed-tee, foursomes, greensomes, scramble, etc.
		
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Could well but if these comps are set up via the ISV players can see via app or psi exactly what they need to know for playing HC, I think the problems will occurs with the rules stating that course HC need to be on the card. My personal thought is that needs to change.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Could well but if these comps are set up via the ISV players can see via app or psi exactly what they need to know for playing HC, I think the problems will occurs with the rules stating that course HC need to be on the card. My personal thought is that needs to change.
		
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I agree. Howdidido tells players their playing handicap when they sign in to comp. As such, many bypass their Index and Course Handicap, and simply use the App to inform them what their handicap is in the competition.

I just hope the 3 handicap boxes in the card ensure they put their course handicap in. However, I don't think it will ever get through to some that they need to keep trying to hole out in Stableford if they have a shot left on course handicap, if they can no longer score in comp.


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## jim8flog (Apr 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Could well but if these comps are set up via the ISV players can see via app or psi exactly what they need to know for playing HC, I think the problems will occurs with the rules stating that course HC need to be on the card. My personal thought is that needs to change.
		
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Totally agree and I have said that from the off.

The one constant wherever you play and whatever the format for the competition is your Handicap Index.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Totally agree and I have said that from the off.

The one constant wherever you play and whatever the format for the competition is your Handicap Index.
		
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I would go for PHC myself.


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## rulefan (Apr 18, 2021)

wjemather said:



			It's made clear in the examples given in CONGU's guidance.
		
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Do you mean this reference to Scotland?

*G6.2a*
Committees and players should follow the advice of their National Association in the use of the integer or full calculated Course Handicap in the calculation of the Playing Handicap. *For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap.*


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## wjemather (Apr 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I would go for PHC myself.
		
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But players must play to their CH for handicapping irrespective of their PH for the competition (or their HI). As such it is CH they need to know, and write on the scorecard

I've already picked up a couple of people about to knock away a short putt on their CH-only shot hole. More education needed.


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## wjemather (Apr 18, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Do you mean this reference to Scotland?

*G6.2a*
Committees and players should follow the advice of their National Association in the use of the integer or full calculated Course Handicap in the calculation of the Playing Handicap. *For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap.*

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No, the examples are in Appendix I Section IV (pp. 40-43). Basically, the rounding is only done at the end (to the resultant Playing Handicap), not to the individual player allowances that make up the calculation.

This makes sense, since two players with a CH of 5 playing foursomes should have a playing handicap of (2.5 + 2.5 =) 5, not a rounded-up (3 + 3 =) 6.


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## rulefan (Apr 18, 2021)

wjemather said:



			No, the examples are in Appendix I Section IV (pp. 40-43). Basically, the rounding is only done at the end (to the resultant Playing Handicap), *not to the individual player allowances* that make up the calculation.

This makes sense, since two players with a CH of 5 playing foursomes should have a playing handicap of (2.5 + 2.5 =) 5, not a rounded-up (3 + 3 =) 6.
		
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In the first table of Foursomes Liam's CH is an integer of 10 and Luke's is an integer of 27 (ie both rounded conventionally). It is only the 50% of that total that is unrounded.


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## wjemather (Apr 18, 2021)

rulefan said:



			In the first table of Foursomes Liam's CH is an integer of 10 and Luke's is an integer of 27 (ie both rounded conventionally). It is only the 50% of that total that is unrounded.
		
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Yes, CH are rounded as normal prior to any PH calculations (unrounded in Scotland). The key is that the allowances are not rounded until after they are added together, along with any mixed tee adjustments.

It's probably easier to see in the greensomes and scramble examples.


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## apj0524 (Apr 18, 2021)

Might not be the right thread to ask the question but we had our first Seniors Stableford in the week and there were 14 DQs because they only put their Playing handicap on the card not in the box on the card for Course Handicap.  I know Rule 3.3b And CONGU advise clearly states the Course Handicap but my Question is should they have been DQ as the Playing Handicap is below the Course Handicap?


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## rulefan (Apr 18, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Yes, CH are rounded as normal *prior to any PH calculations* (unrounded in Scotland). *The key is that the allowances are not rounded until after they are added together,* along with any mixed tee adjustments.

It's probably easier to see in the greensomes and scramble examples.
		
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That's what wasn't clear from your original post. But all ok now.


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## rulefan (Apr 18, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			Might not be the right thread to ask the question but we had our first Seniors Stableford in the week and there were 14 DQs because they only put their Playing handicap on the card not in the box on the card for Course Handicap.  I know Rule 3.3b And CONGU advise clearly states the Course Handicap but my Question is should they have been DQ as the Playing Handicap is below the Course Handicap?
		
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*Handicap on Scorecard Too Low.* There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.


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## NearHull (Apr 19, 2021)

rulefan said:



*Handicap on Scorecard Too Low.* There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.
		
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Does this effectively undermine disqualification for failing to put the CH on the card because the vast majority of PH‘s will be lower than the CH?  If a competitor enters a card correctly but with only their PH (and lower than their CH) on the card it seems it is acceptable, but does it have to be in the right box or anywhere on the card?


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## IainP (Apr 19, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			Might not be the right thread to ask the question but we had our first Seniors Stableford in the week and there were 14 DQs because they only put their Playing handicap on the card not in the box on the card for Course Handicap.  I know Rule 3.3b And CONGU advise clearly states the Course Handicap but my Question is should they have been DQ as the Playing Handicap is below the Course Handicap?
		
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(From the information provided)
I bet the person dishing out the DQs was popular. Although I'm typically quite meticulous and an 'admin' person, this kind of thing IMO doesn't look good for golf.
Players ought to be judged on how they did hitting a ball, not how good they are at record keeping and admin. If there is a clear name, date, and accurate gross scores, we all know the computer is doing the rest (and it knows)


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Does this effectively undermine disqualification for failing to put the CH on the card because the vast majority of PH‘s will be lower than the CH?  If a competitor enters a card correctly but with only their PH (and lower than their CH) on the card it seems it is acceptable, but does it have to be in the right box or anywhere on the card?
		
Click to expand...

I asked this months ago, and never really got an answer. The general response seemed to along the lines of "don't worry about it".

However, if a player only puts in a playing handicap, how many competition secretaries will both spot this, and then reduce their handicap for the comp? How do they do this? Is it simply in the software, or do they need to manipulate the Index to ensure the players course handicap equals their correct playing handicap, this making their actual playing handicap lower? If they do that, would this impact their correct score for handicapping at all?

If player only puts Playing Handicap in the Playing Handicap box, is it DQ for clearly not putting in Course Handicap? Apparently some say not, just assume the playing handicap is their course handicap, as course handicap does not need to be in correct box.

It all seems like a bit of a farce, where competition secretaries will have to use subjectivity to decide if the card follows the rules or not. We are being lenient at moment due to Covid, and the scorecard restrictions around that.


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## NearHull (Apr 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I asked this months ago, and never really got an answer. The general response seemed to along the lines of "don't worry about it".

However, if a player only puts in a playing handicap, how many competition secretaries will both spot this, and then reduce their handicap for the comp? How do they do this? Is it simply in the software, or do they need to manipulate the Index to ensure the players course handicap equals their correct playing handicap, this making their actual playing handicap lower? If they do that, would this impact their correct score for handicapping at all?

If player only puts Playing Handicap in the Playing Handicap box, is it DQ for clearly not putting in Course Handicap? Apparently some say not, just assume the playing handicap is their course handicap, as course handicap does not need to be in correct box.

It all seems like a bit of a farce, where competition secretaries will have to use subjectivity to decide if the card follows the rules or not. We are being lenient at moment due to Covid, and the scorecard restrictions around that.
		
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I’ve a friend who has just passed the first level of referees  exams.  I have asked him for his views - I expect a carefully crafted answer! I am also fortunate to have an international referee and EG advisor as a member. They are on holiday at the moment so I will ask on their return.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

I have just this weekend played in my first two WHS counting comps.  Both stableford we decided that we‘d only note the gross score for each hole - I did this on a card as I went round as I struggle seeing app on my phone due to glare. All of us noted gross for all players in the group - we did not note points.  When we completed the round we cross-checked each other’s gross score - we did not bother working out stableford points or total - we let the system do that.

Both days I then entered my gross scores for the round on the clubhouse terminal. Nobody watched and i could have posted any score.  No signed card required.  Is there now this additional level of trust?  I could see the results for the comps but these were stableford points totals and as mentioned we did not record points as we went round and so unless I kept the card I used for us all I have no way of knowing or checking back to see if the stableford totals were as I would have expected.

Or is it that in a stableford comp we MUST check stableford points at end of round - my understanding is that we don’t. In fact it recommended that we let the system do that working out.


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## apj0524 (Apr 19, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I’ve a friend who has just passed the first level of referees  exams.  I have asked him for his views - I expect a carefully crafted answer! I am also fortunate to have an international referee and EG advisor as a member. They are on holiday at the moment so I will ask on their return.
		
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It would be great to hear their opinions.

Unfortunately I was unpopular one but the cards returned were mess and despite some latitude there was no Course Handicap on these cards.

It then go me thinking that unless a players handicap changes dramatically overnight if player just puts a handicap on the card that is the playing handicap it makes a farce of of CONGU guidance - To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).

Because under rule 3.3b (4)  - *Handicap on Scorecard Too Low*. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

So if player just puts his Playing Handicap on the Card which clearly is not his Course Handicap its all good because at 95% for Singles its going to be Lower so OK

What's the point on insisting on the Course handicap !


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## TerryA (Apr 19, 2021)

The software will hold your HI
You will input your gross score
The software will calculate your points for that competition - 95% of your Course Handicap
It will also update the England Golf database with your result overnight 
The following day you can view the My England Golf App where you will see any change to your HI
Your club’s software will also be updated with the new HI

With regard to checking correct input:
Intell Golf haas the facility for you to upload a copy of your card
Club V1/Howdidido also has this facility but some clubs prefer you to leave the physical card in a box for the office to check input.

Hope this helps.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			It would be great to hear their opinions.

Unfortunately I was unpopular one but the cards returned were mess and despite some latitude there was no Course Handicap on these cards.

It then go me thinking that unless a players handicap changes dramatically overnight if player just puts a handicap on the card that is the playing handicap it makes a farce of of CONGU guidance - To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).

Because under rule 3.3b (4)  - *Handicap on Scorecard Too Low*. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

So if player just puts his Playing Handicap on the Card which clearly is not his Course Handicap its all good because at 95% for Singles its going to be Lower so OK

What's the point on insisting on the Course handicap !
		
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However, remember, his score will need to be reduced (unless PH=CH). So, the computer will incorrectly work out his score (as it will do so based on the correct course handicap). If you assume the playing handicap on his card is his course handicap, then you'd have to reduce his playing handicap on the computer to reflect that. Which is all a bit of a mess.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or is it that in a stableford comp we MUST check stableford points at end of round - my understanding is that we don’t. In fact it recommended that we let the system do that working out.
		
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 I have a lot of minor disagreements with players who do not want to bother checking gross scores and only the Stableford points as a total. For scoring the only thing you are responsible for is the gross score on each hole.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			It would be great to hear their opinions.

Unfortunately I was unpopular one but the cards returned were mess and despite some latitude there was no Course Handicap on these cards.

It then go me thinking that unless a players handicap changes dramatically overnight if player just puts a handicap on the card that is the playing handicap it makes a farce of of CONGU guidance - To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).

Because under rule 3.3b (4)  - *Handicap on Scorecard Too Low*. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

So if player just puts his Playing Handicap on the Card which clearly is not his Course Handicap its all good because at 95% for Singles its going to be Lower so OK

What's the point on insisting on the Course handicap !
		
Click to expand...

 Two things though is that a player is nor required to put their Playing Handicap on a card and the handicap does not have to be in the correct box so if there is only one handicap on the card I am assuming that tis must be treated as the course handicap (based upon pre WHS interpretations)

*3.3b/2 – Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable*

Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on   the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).


RE The  question interpretation on the rules is pretty clear.

*3.3b(4)/1 – Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard*

In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player’s responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap  s shown on the scorecard. “Handicap” means the handicap for the course and tees being played, *excluding any handicap allowances* as set out within the Terms  of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Two things though is that a player is nor required to put their Playing Handicap on a card and the handicap does not have to be in the correct box so if there is only one handicap on the card I am assuming that tis must be treated as the course handicap (based upon pre WHS interpretations)

*3.3b/2 – Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable*

Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on   the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).


RE The  question interpretation on the rules is pretty clear.

*3.3b(4)/1 – Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard*

In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player’s responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap  s shown on the scorecard. “Handicap” means the handicap for the course and tees being played, *excluding any handicap allowances* as set out within the Terms  of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.
		
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I am waiting for the occasion where a player puts in their Playing Handicap only (say a PH of 18, Course Handicap of 19). As it is in PH box, and clearly the correct PH, it seems like a big stretch for the Committee to assume they thought it was their course handicap, got it wrong and put it in the wrong box.

However, let us say that the Committee give them that get out of jail card. Imagine the player won the competition on countback, because the computer will use the correct numbers (course handicap 19, playing handicap 18). The player is over the moon, because they never thought they were putting in CH, they knew all along it was their PH as the software told them when they signed in. Somehow, the Committee need to spot this, and then somehow they have to manipulate his handicap on the computer so his CH is actually 18 and PH is thus 17. Technically, I am not sure if this is easy to do in the software? But if it is, the player no longer wins the competition.

Now, I'm not feeling sorry for the player, rules are rules I suppose. But it is all a bit of a confusing mess. Some committees will DQ the player, because in their opinion the player did NOT put Course Handicap anywhere on card. Other committees will not DQ player, but reduce handicap (if they can) so the player gets less points. And I am sure other committees will ignore the omission completely on the card and just let accept the computer working out the score based on the correct course / playing handicaps.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I asked this months ago, and never really got an answer. The general response seemed to along the lines of "don't worry about it".

However, if a player only puts in a playing handicap, how many competition secretaries will both spot this, and then reduce their handicap for the comp? How do they do this? Is it simply in the software, or do they need to manipulate the Index to ensure the players course handicap equals their correct playing handicap, this making their actual playing handicap lower? If they do that, would this impact their correct score for handicapping at all?

If player only puts Playing Handicap in the Playing Handicap box, is it DQ for clearly not putting in Course Handicap? Apparently some say not, just assume the playing handicap is their course handicap, as course handicap does not need to be in correct box.

It all seems like a bit of a farce, where competition secretaries will have to use subjectivity to decide if the card follows the rules or not. We are being lenient at moment due to Covid, and the scorecard restrictions around that.
		
Click to expand...

And if - for a preentered comp - I don’t submit a card but do no more than enter my gross score for each hole on a terminal...?  Where does writing my CH on my card (or not) fit in - unless we are talking additional rounds outside of a club comp.


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## wjemather (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have just this weekend played in my first two WHS counting comps.  Both stableford we decided that we‘d only note the gross score for each hole - I did this on a card as I went round as I struggle seeing app on my phone due to glare. All of us noted gross for all players in the group - we did not note points.  When we completed the round we cross-checked each other’s gross score - we did not bother working out stableford points or total - we let the system do that.

Both days I then entered my gross scores for the round on the clubhouse terminal. Nobody watched and i could have posted any score.  No signed card required.  Is there now this additional level of trust?  I could see the results for the comps but these were stableford points totals and as mentioned we did not record points as we went round and so unless I kept the card I used for us all I have no way of knowing or checking back to see if the stableford totals were as I would have expected.

Or is it that in a stableford comp we MUST check stableford points at end of round - my understanding is that we don’t. In fact it recommended that we let the system do that working out.
		
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Per CONGU's guidance during COVID, clubs should have a process in place for verification of scores in the absence of physical scorecards, even if it is just verbal confirmation. Seems your club may be overlooking this step.


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## wjemather (Apr 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I am waiting for the occasion where a player puts in their Playing Handicap only (say a PH of 18, Course Handicap of 19). As it is in PH box, and clearly the correct PH, it seems like a big stretch for the Committee to assume they thought it was their course handicap, got it wrong and put it in the wrong box.

However, let us say that the Committee give them that get out of jail card. Imagine the player won the competition on countback, because the computer will use the correct numbers (course handicap 19, playing handicap 18). The player is over the moon, because they never thought they were putting in CH, they knew all along it was their PH as the software told them when they signed in. Somehow, the Committee need to spot this, and then somehow they have to manipulate his handicap on the computer so his CH is actually 18 and PH is thus 17. Technically, I am not sure if this is easy to do in the software? But if it is, the player no longer wins the competition.

Now, I'm not feeling sorry for the player, rules are rules I suppose. But it is all a bit of a confusing mess. Some committees will DQ the player, because in their opinion the player did NOT put Course Handicap anywhere on card. Other committees will not DQ player, but reduce handicap (if they can) so the player gets less points. And I am sure other committees will ignore the omission completely on the card and just let accept the computer working out the score based on the correct course / playing handicaps.
		
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It would be nice if ClubV1 even had the necessary DQ options, let alone the ability to adjust playing handicap per the rules.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Per CONGU's guidance during COVID, clubs should have a process in place for verification of scores in the absence of physical scorecards, even if it is just verbal confirmation. Seems your club may be overlooking this step.
		
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As it happens the club has told us that we should verbally cross-check players scores on completion of our round. That is what we’ve done.  So that’s fine.  It’s just that if I do not keep the card I used for scoring I cannot later check a playing companion‘s stableford points against the total shown.  And if all players just enter their own score in the app there is no cross check.

I ask as i was surprised to see the total points of one of my companions when the next day I looked at the comp result.  It looked 4-5 points or so more than I was expecting given how he played.  We had confirmed gross scores on the day.  Fortunately I had not chucked the card I had used for us and so was able to cross check - and his points was correct.  But I don’t know what I’d have done had I not kept the card.

on the general point of what to write on a card.  My clubs guidance is that in singles s/f we score against CH and we record our gross score.  So if I was putting in a physical card I’d write in my CH and not bother about my PH.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And if - for a preentered comp - I don’t submit a card but do no more than enter my gross score for each hole on a terminal...?  Where does writing my CH on my card (or not) fit in - unless we are talking additional rounds outside of a club comp.
		
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I suspect that is just straight DQ. At least when Covid rules no longer apply and physical cards need to be returned (unless we ever get to electronic cards).


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## nickjdavis (Apr 19, 2021)

I must admit....more and more I don't get the stipulation of recording a handicap on a card. In this computerised day and age it is totally irrelevant. Record your gross scores and let the machines sort out your nett score. Whether you write down 17 or 18 in a box marked CH or PH really does not matter....the physical act of recording of your handicap on a card doesn't affect your nett score one little bit.

These days I keep hearing the phrase "the app will do all that".....well, let the app/computer or whatever do it's good at and stop putting stupid bureaucratic obstacles in the way of players. 

The only time you need to know your playing handicap and communicate it with others is during matchplay.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I must admit....more and more I don't get the stipulation of recording a handicap on a card. In this computerised day and age it is totally irrelevant. Record your gross scores and let the machines sort out your nett score. Whether you write down 17 or 18 in a box marked CH or PH really does not matter....the physical act of recording of your handicap on a card doesn't affect your nett score one little bit.

These days I keep hearing the phrase "the app will do all that".....well, let the app/computer or whatever do it's good at and stop putting stupid bureaucratic obstacles in the way of players.

The only time you need to know your playing handicap and communicate it with others is during matchplay.
		
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I suspect the Rules need to catch up with technology. I agree. If the player puts the wrong handicap on a card in a stroke play event, it shouldn't make any difference. Even pre WHS if we could rely on the tech. Post WHS we have pretty much been instructed to rely on the tech, so let's get rid of these old rules.


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## wjemather (Apr 19, 2021)

The rules cover everyone, and they don't all use computer systems to manage competitions.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 19, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The rules cover everyone, and they don't all use computer systems to manage competitions.
		
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Granted. But it still shouldn't matter. If in, what I will call a manually processed comp, I write my handicap as X....the person processing the comp is going to check it against a list of players/handicaps....if I've recorded my handicap wrongly what difference does it make to my score?....just apply the correct handicap. And if you are going to do that....then why bother writing the handicap on the card in the first place anyway?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 19, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The rules cover everyone, and they don't all use computer systems to manage competitions.
		
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Perhaps they could have certain caveats or conditions associated with this rule. It just seems archaic to DQ someone, or reduce their score, if they put the Playing Handicap on their card only. The handicap the IT tells them, and the handicap that impacts their competition score. The competition they then are DQed from.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I am waiting for the occasion where a player puts in their Playing Handicap only (say a PH of 18, Course Handicap of 19). As it is in PH box, and clearly the correct PH, it seems like a big stretch for the Committee to assume they thought it was their course handicap, got it wrong and put it in the wrong box.

However, let us say that the Committee give them that get out of jail card. Imagine the player won the competition on countback, because the computer will use the correct numbers (course handicap 19, playing handicap 18). The player is over the moon, because they never thought they were putting in CH, they knew all along it was their PH as the software told them when they signed in. Somehow, the Committee need to spot this, and then somehow they have to manipulate his handicap on the computer so his CH is actually 18 and PH is thus 17. Technically, I am not sure if this is easy to do in the software? But if it is, the player no longer wins the competition.

Now, I'm not feeling sorry for the player, rules are rules I suppose. But it is all a bit of a confusing mess. Some committees will DQ the player, because in their opinion the player did NOT put Course Handicap anywhere on card. Other committees will not DQ player, but reduce handicap (if they can) so the player gets less points. And I am sure other committees will ignore the omission completely on the card and just let accept the computer working out the score based on the correct course / playing handicaps.
		
Click to expand...


I know with IG when you entering cards/ adjusting scores there is a box for adjusting an individual player's handicap 'for this competition only'. 

As I am now only on sub committee I do not do teh cards except when asked and  I do not know what the manager or Captain is doing.

I know when I was doing cards I only fully checked the cards of the winners and the nearly winners. With nearly a 100 cards to do too time consuming to check them all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

I am a little confused (as usual) on this matter.  I played in two WHS comps this weekend and as we can each and every one of us enter out scores into IG via a terminal in our clubhouse lobby, I suspect that not one of us also submitted a physical card.  The direction given is that we record gross scores - and before entering them on the system, or finalising them if entered using the app as we went round, we do a cross-check with our companions - and that’s it.  No requirement to submit a physical card. No need for anyone to ‘witness’ my entering my cross-checked score on the system.


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## chellie (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am a little confused (as usual) on this matter.  I played in two WHS comps this weekend and as we can each and every one of us enter out scores into IG via a terminal in our clubhouse lobby, I suspect that not one of us also submitted a physical card.  The direction given is that we record gross scores - and before entering them on the system, or finalising them if entered using the app as we went round, we do a cross-check with our companions - and that’s it.  No requirement to submit a physical card. No need for anyone to ‘witness’ my entering my cross-checked score on the system.
		
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We have to submit our card as well as entering it on the PSI. My markers score was also written on my card. I only signed my own card.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

chellie said:



			We have to submit our card as well as entering it on the PSI. My markers score was also written on my card. I only signed my own card.
		
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Seems that the club trusts us to enter and submit gross scores as agreed in our post-round cross check - with no need for me to have further player verification in the form of a signed physical card.  But does seem open to abuse.


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## chellie (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seems that the club trusts us to enter and submit gross scores as agreed in our post-round cross check - with no need for me to have further player verification in the form of a signed physical card.  But does seem open to abuse.
		
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Yes, I'm pleased ours are doing it the way they are.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2021)

I’m not sure why the cards can’t be dropped off in a box after scores have been entered but if the club are happy that’s all that matters.
My only concern would be that when things go back to how they should people will forget to submit cards for verification.


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## apj0524 (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am a little confused (as usual) on this matter.  I played in two WHS comps this weekend and as we can each and every one of us enter out scores into IG via a terminal in our clubhouse lobby, I suspect that not one of us also submitted a physical card.  The direction given is that we record gross scores - and before entering them on the system, or finalising them if entered using the app as we went round, we do a cross-check with our companions - and that’s it.  No requirement to submit a physical card. No need for anyone to ‘witness’ my entering my cross-checked score on the system.
		
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Do you have wipe the terminal everyone times its used, my club will not let us use the terminal because of COVID and the issue arose because of this an the Seniors either don't use the IG App or don't have it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			Do you have wipe the terminal everyone times its used, my club will not let us use the terminal because of COVID and the issue arose because of this an the Seniors either don't use the IG App or don't have it.
		
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My experience is similar to SILH so whilst you are waiting for his reply I'll jump in. On Saturday I played in a 3 ball. One person marked one card for all 3 of us. When we finished one person then entered all 3 scores via the terminal, binned the card, actually I took it home and put it in the recycling bin. After entering the scores I wiped the screen ready for the next person. There is always a pack of wipes next to the screen. 

We have been doing it like this since day 1 of all this, back last year. It's worked well.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			Do you have wipe the terminal everyone times its used, my club will not let us use the terminal because of COVID and the issue arose because of this an the Seniors either don't use the IG App or don't have it.
		
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EG latest is that terminal can be used aslong as sanitizer is avail for use.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			Do you have wipe the terminal everyone times its used, my club will not let us use the terminal because of COVID and the issue arose because of this an the Seniors either don't use the IG App or don't have it.
		
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 We have sanitiser next to both PSI screens.

To me it is more of case of sanitising your hands with alcohol gel after using the terminal rather than the terminal itself.

There are just so many things to get touched at the club the screen is just one more thing. We have alcohol gel absolutely everywhere.


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			We have sanitiser next to both PSI screens.

To me it is more of case of sanitising your hands with alcohol gel after using the terminal rather than the terminal itself.

There are just so many things to get touched at the club the screen is just one more thing. We have alcohol gel absolutely everywhere.
		
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This, I don't want sanitizers continually being used on the screen.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			Do you have wipe the terminal everyone times its used, my club will not let us use the terminal because of COVID and the issue arose because of this an the Seniors either don't use the IG App or don't have it.
		
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Yes - hand cleanser is provided at the terminal and we must use it before entering our score. There is a very prominent notice on the terminal telling us - so no excuses for not doing so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I suspect that is just straight DQ. At least when Covid rules no longer apply and physical cards need to be returned (unless we ever get to electronic cards).
		
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We’re not there yet, but I’ve asked about it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My experience is similar to SILH so whilst you are waiting for his reply I'll jump in. On Saturday I played in a 3 ball. One person marked one card for all 3 of us. When we finished one person then entered all 3 scores via the terminal, binned the card, actually I took it home and put it in the recycling bin. After entering the scores I wiped the screen ready for the next person. There is always a pack of wipes next to the screen.

We have been doing it like this since day 1 of all this, back last year. It's worked well.
		
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Difference in my context is that two of my four ball entered their scores in the app during the round and two of us recorded all four scores on a card.  The two of us doing the latter individually entered our scores using the terminal and we did not ‘witness’ each other doing it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Difference in my context is that two of my four ball entered their scores in the app during the round and two of us recorded all four scores on a card.  The two of us doing the latter individually entered our scores using the terminal and we did not ‘witness’ each other doing it.
		
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Simple solution, marker enters players score on PSI.


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## rosecott (Apr 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Simple solution, marker enters players score on PSI.
		
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And what happens if he gets it wrong and falls foul of 3.3b.


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## NearHull (Apr 21, 2021)

My friend’s (recently passed his first referee exam) view of putting the lower PH on the card instead of CH.

Rule 3.3b(4) -  Scoring in Handicap Competition. The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:

Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.
Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.
this rule also has an interpretation in the official guide to the rules

3.3b(4)/interpretation 1

*Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard*
In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player's responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. "Handicap" means the handicap for the course and tees being played, excluding any handicap allowances as set out within the Terms of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.
[Clarification available:

and this month the R&A have issued a clarification to the interpretation in their quarterly update:

Rule 3:
Rule 3.3b(4):
1. Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1 – National Association May Establish Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard
Until further notice, a National Association (Authorized Association as defined in the Rules of Handicapping) may adopt a policy that establishes the handicap that players must show on their scorecard in a net-score stroke play competition. This handicap does not have to be the handicap described in Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1, which is the Course Handicap (as defined in the Rules of Handicapping). The options for the National Association are the Handicap Index, the Course Handicap or the Playing Handicap. If no policy is adopted by the National Association, the Course Handicap is the handicap the player must show on the scorecard, in accordance with Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1. (Added 4/2021)

Back to you to see if our National Association has made such policy.

If they haven’t made a policy then the default requirement for the player as per the rules of golf is to quote the course handicap. However, see interpretation 2 for 3.3b below.


*3.3b/2
Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable*
Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).
For example:

If the player and marker certify the hole scores in the location where the other was meant to certify, the player's scores have been certified as required under Rule 3.3b. The same would be true if initials were used to certify, rather than the full name.
If the player's scores are recorded on the marker's scorecard and the marker'son the player's, but the scores are correct and both scorecards are certified, the scorecards are acceptable so long as the players tell the Committeewhich scorecard belongs to which player. As the nature of this mistake is administrative, there is no time limit on making such a correction (see 20.2d/1).
Could the player claim that the entry of the playing handicap on the card in your scenario was intended to be his course handicap (which he showed as lower than should have been) and that he put it in the wrong place on the card and therefore he avoids DQ because of handicap on card too low and interpretation? If this is accepted then the playing allowance would be applied to the number quoted on the card.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2021)

rosecott said:



			And what happens if he gets it wrong and falls foul of 3.3b.
		
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Not with you, please clarify.


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## rulefan (Apr 21, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Could the player claim that the entry of the playing handicap on the card in your scenario was intended to be his course handicap
		
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Only if he really thought it was his course handicap. If he didn't, he would have lied to the committee.
But having done a calculation of 95% why would he think the result was his CH?


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2021)

rulefan said:



			But having done a calculation of 95% why would he think the result was his CH?
		
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Possibly because they haven’t read through 168 pages at, in some cases, could be identified as conflicting rules/advice.


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## apj0524 (Apr 21, 2021)

NearHull said:



			My friend’s (recently passed his first referee exam) view of putting the lower PH on the card instead of CH.

Rule 3.3b(4) -  Scoring in Handicap Competition. The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:

Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.
Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.
this rule also has an interpretation in the official guide to the rules

3.3b(4)/interpretation 1

*Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard*
In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player's responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. "Handicap" means the handicap for the course and tees being played, excluding any handicap allowances as set out within the Terms of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.
[Clarification available:

and this month the R&A have issued a clarification to the interpretation in their quarterly update:

Rule 3:
Rule 3.3b(4):
1. Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1 – National Association May Establish Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard
Until further notice, a National Association (Authorized Association as defined in the Rules of Handicapping) may adopt a policy that establishes the handicap that players must show on their scorecard in a net-score stroke play competition. This handicap does not have to be the handicap described in Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1, which is the Course Handicap (as defined in the Rules of Handicapping). The options for the National Association are the Handicap Index, the Course Handicap or the Playing Handicap. If no policy is adopted by the National Association, the Course Handicap is the handicap the player must show on the scorecard, in accordance with Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1. (Added 4/2021)

Back to you to see if our National Association has made such policy.

If they haven’t made a policy then the default requirement for the player as per the rules of golf is to quote the course handicap. However, see interpretation 2 for 3.3b below.


*3.3b/2
Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable*
Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).
For example:

If the player and marker certify the hole scores in the location where the other was meant to certify, the player's scores have been certified as required under Rule 3.3b. The same would be true if initials were used to certify, rather than the full name.
If the player's scores are recorded on the marker's scorecard and the marker's on the player's, but the scores are correct and both scorecards are certified, the scorecards are acceptable so long as the players tell the Committee which scorecard belongs to which player. As the nature of this mistake is administrative, there is no time limit on making such a correction (see 20.2d/1).
Could the player claim that the entry of the playing handicap on the card in your scenario was intended to be his course handicap (which he showed as lower than should have been) and that he put it in the wrong place on the card and therefore he avoids DQ because of handicap on card too low and interpretation? If this is accepted then the playing allowance would be applied to the number quoted on the card.
		
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Thank you taking the time to speak with your friend who is a referee and writing this up

As much as I had sense of guilt Disqualifying so many players, in hindsight after weeks of communication and helping members it was going to happen sooner or later because many would just not educate themselves and seemed to have an view:

1) Rules do not apply to them
2) The do not want embrace the technology that allows them to enter there own score in which case the the issue goes away
3) That that the M&H team would accept what they put on the card and if its wrong correct it.

As volunteer at the club who has a full time job and family I have not got the time to correct the card by accepting what is on the card is their course handicap and make adjustments to their scores accordingly 14 times

Coincidently in the competition on Saturday that I entered the scores for, had 0ver 100 entrants, many of which played in the earlier competition, not one DQ for the wrong handicap


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			Thank you taking the time to speak with your friend who is a referee and writing this up

As much as I had sense of guilt Disqualifying so many players, in hindsight after weeks of communication and helping members it was going to happen sooner or later because many would just not educate themselves and seemed to have an view:

1) Rules do not apply to them
2) The do not want embrace the technology that allows them to enter there own score in which case the the issue goes away
3) That that the M&H team would accept what they put on the card and if its wrong correct it.

As volunteer at the club who has a full time job and family I have not got the time to correct the card by accepting what is on the card is their course handicap and make adjustments to their scores accordingly 14 times

Coincidently in the competition on Saturday that I entered the scores for, had 0ver 100 entrants, many of which played in the earlier competition, not one DQ for the wrong handicap
		
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Have you not opened up your PSI yet?


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## rosecott (Apr 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not with you, please clarify.
		
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What I meant was that the player is responsible for his score. If someone else returns his score and manages to record a score lower than that taken, the player can be DQ'd for someone else's error.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2021)

rosecott said:



			What I meant was that the player is responsible for his score. If someone else returns his score and manages to record a score lower than that taken, the player can be DQ'd for someone else's error.
		
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Player acknowledges score prior to entry. No different to me standing by the PSI and entering others scores really.


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## apj0524 (Apr 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Have you not opened up your PSI yet?
		
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No the Council and Club general manager are super cautious and worried about members not abiding by the 2M rule by the PSI Terminals, so its still via the IG App (very low take up) or the committee entering the cards, very frustrating to be honest.

I looked on the EG site for their guidance on using PSI terminals that I could present to the club GM bit could not find anything, if someone could help me with this that would be great.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			No the Council and Club general manager are super cautious and worried about members not abiding by the 2M rule by the PSI Terminals, so its still via the IG App (very low take up) or the committee entering the cards, very frustrating to be honest.

I looked on the EG site for their guidance on using PSI terminals that I could present to the club GM bit could not find anything, if someone could help me with this that would be great.
		
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All clubs were emailed by EG stating that PSI could now be used providing adequate precautions and sanitiser was in place.


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## jim8flog (Apr 21, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			No the Council and Club general manager are super cautious and worried about members not abiding by the 2M rule by the PSI Terminals, so its still via the IG App (very low take up) or the committee entering the cards, very frustrating to be honest.

I looked on the EG site for their guidance on using PSI terminals that I could present to the club GM bit could not find anything, if someone could help me with this that would be great.
		
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• Player Score Input (PSI) screens may be used where players can sanitise or wash hands before and after use

From
https://www.englandgolf.org/download/a-framework-for-playing-golf/


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## AmandaJR (Apr 23, 2021)

This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows 

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows 

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!
		
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I think you might see a little st the beginning especially for those without the necessary cards in but once things settle i can't see much movement under normal circumstances outside the parameters set within the slope.


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## apj0524 (Apr 23, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			• Player Score Input (PSI) screens may be used where players can sanitise or wash hands before and after use

From
https://www.englandgolf.org/download/a-framework-for-playing-golf/

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Thank you for this


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## jim8flog (Apr 23, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows 

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!
		
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 Worth remembering that soft and hard caps only apply to a player with 20 scores on their record.

Players with less than 16 on theirs could well see it jumping about a bit,


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows 

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!
		
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As mentioned it may have that effect for players with only a few scores but generally although a player's Handicap Index may change it is far less likely to change their Course Handicap on their 'normal' course as CH covers a range of HIs.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			As mentioned it may have that effect for players with only a few scores but generally although a player's Handicap Index may change it is far less likely to change their Course Handicap on their 'normal' course as CH covers a range of HIs.
		
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Now that makes sense and something I'll counter with next time.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I think you might see a little st the beginning especially for those without the necessary cards in but once things settle i can't see much movement under normal circumstances outside the parameters set within the slope.
		
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Up until 4 rounds ago, my handicap.went beyond the soft cap. Had my form continued it would have hit hard cap easily. All in space of 16 rounds.

However, the weather has been nice and I've shot 4 decent rounds, so back within 3 shots of low Index.

Mind you, the next 4 rounds I play will wipe off consecutive rounds making my top 8. Those 4 oldest rounds are my best rounds, so if I play badly over next couple of weekends my Index will take off.


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