# Shrine for the career criminal



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

And so we find a shrine, comprising flowers and messages, being created outside the home of Richard Osborn-Brooks, the 78 yr old pensioner who is not being charged over the death of the career burglar Henry Vincent - a member of a  large traveller family

Now what do we think of _that_?

We must all be allowed to grieve for those we love and lose regardless of who they are or what they have done.  And if we are OK with the concept of such 'shrines' being at the place a life is lost - we see them all the time at the side of the road - then outside of this house in a public place?

I'm not a fan of public 'shrines' per se - but a little bit conflicted on this.  Would be interesting to know how Mr Osborn-Brooks feels about what happened.

I actually think it's rather grim and gross...despite what I feel loved ones should be able to do to remember their loss - especially given what he had done and the subsequent threats to Mr Osborn-Brooks.  But should his loved ones and daughter still be allowed to remember him in this way - his little daughter leaving a card and a teddy bear at the scene of her much loved daddies death.


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## irip (Apr 10, 2018)

May i ask what difference it makes that he comes from a "large traveler family"?


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2018)

On the basis that the site of this this is the victim of an attempted robbery's home, the police should remove it.

 But I am sure they won't and the residents will be too intimidated to do so


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

irip said:



			May i ask what difference it makes that he comes from a "large traveler family"?
		
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The trite answer to that question is - because that is how _The Sun _reported it.  That said, what I might think about what might be done about the shrine could well be affected by knowing the background of his family - exactly what *@IanM* has alluded to.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 10, 2018)

Shrine should be removed , itâ€™s reported that the elderly couple involved may have to relocate because of the possibility of a revenge attack.

This is simply wrong,


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## Leftie (Apr 10, 2018)

And I'll let peeps here have one guess as to what subject SILH's hero James O'Brien on LBC was majoring on after 11.00 am this morning!


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2018)

When does dropped/placed flowers (litter) become a shrine?

I suspect the PC fears and the treatment of a 'minority' will prevent common sense prevailing and the victims of the burglary will end up feeling like a victims and be prevented from returning home through no fault of their own.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

Leftie said:



			And I'll let peeps here have one guess as to what subject SILH's hero James O'Brien on LBC was majoring on after 11.00 am this morning!



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Correct...exactly what has prompted my thinking...and O'Brien too is conflicted


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## Robster59 (Apr 10, 2018)

It should be removed.  If they want a shrine to him, do it at home and not at the scene of his crime.  
If we are not careful this criminal will be lionised when at the end of the day it was he who broke into a pensioners house armed and with intent to steal.


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## USER1999 (Apr 10, 2018)

Apparently most of it has already been torn down.


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## Robster59 (Apr 10, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Apparently most of it has already been torn down.
		
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 I can see this escalating......


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## hors limite (Apr 10, 2018)

I am sorry but a " normal" family would be ashamed of this man. A career criminal who cheated elderly and vulnerable people out of their savings - what a horrible crime. That his family can't see the reality of his awful behaviour only shows that they share his appalling standards.


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I am sorry but a " normal" family would be ashamed of this man. A career criminal who cheated elderly and vulnerable people out of their savings - what a horrible crime. That his family can't see the reality of his awful behaviour only shows that they share his appalling standards.
		
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yes, sadly


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## bobmac (Apr 10, 2018)

He preyed on the elderly and infirm as he believed as all cowards do that he would encounter little or no resistence.

He got what he deserved and the sooner his little daughter realises what a terrible man her daddy really was the better.
And as for the friends and family are concerned, they should give up the second burglar or face charges.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

...playing devil's advocate.  If Mr Osborn-Brooks is sorry about what has happened - that he did not wish Henry Vincent dead - would that change anything?


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## bobmac (Apr 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...playing devil's advocate.  If Mr Osborn-Brooks is sorry about what has happened - that he did not wish Henry Vincent dead - would that change anything?
		
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No
One less scum on the streets.
No sympathy


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			No
One less scum on the streets.
No sympathy
		
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Not talking sympathy - just wondering who would be offended by the shrine if Mr Osborn-Brook was not.  Would his wishes take precedence over the feelings of everyone else.


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## hors limite (Apr 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not talking sympathy - just wondering who would be offended by the shrine if Mr Osborn-Brook was not.  Would his wishes take precedence over the feelings of everyone else.
		
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I don't see the point of this "what iffery". A man who has systematically preyed  upon the elderly, weak and vulnerable doesn't deserve a "shrine" and that his deluded family and friends can't see that tells you all you need to know.


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## bobmac (Apr 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not talking sympathy - just wondering who would be offended by the shrine if Mr Osborn-Brook was not.  Would his wishes take precedence over the feelings of everyone else.
		
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Mr Osborn-Brook gave his permission to have the flowers taken down so there is no question and I don't like this floral display being referred to as a shrine as it has no religious significance.


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## USER1999 (Apr 10, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I don't see the point of this "what iffery". A man who has systematically preyed  upon the elderly, weak and vulnerable doesn't deserve a "shrine" and that his deluded family and friends can't see that tells you all you need to know.
		
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It appears that most of his deluded friends and familly have been banged up for similar crimes. It is the familly career path. None of them are any different.


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...playing devil's advocate.  If Mr Osborn-Brooks is sorry about what has happened - that he did not wish Henry Vincent dead - would that change anything?
		
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Why play devil's advocate?

I would hope in many cases the family and friends of the dead man would be sufficiently embarrassed about the reasons why he was there to not lay flowers in the vicinity.   But that is a forlorn hope in this case.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Mr Osborn-Brook gave his permission to have the flowers taken down so there is no question and *I don't like this floral display being referred to as a shrine as it has no religious significance*.
		
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I am 100% with you on *this*

And on my _what-if_ on Mr Osborn-Brook - that was simply to see whether our views are based upon our _own _feelings as individuals about such criminal acts and outcomes, as opposed to consideration and respect of the feelings of the individual(s) against whom a criminal act is perpetrated.  Because in other circumstances these could conflict.

As said at the outset.  I myself find the 'shrine', and all associated with it, grim and grotesque.


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## JamesR (Apr 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not talking sympathy - *just wondering who would be offended by the shrine if Mr Osborn-Brook was not.*  Would his wishes take precedence over the feelings of everyone else.
		
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Neighbours, friends, relatives, any other law abiding citizens


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## PieMan (Apr 10, 2018)

BBC News reporting that the dead criminal's friends/ family have been back putting the tributes back-up!

Must be tough for the local residents.

Even worse for Mr Osborn-Brooks not being able to be in his own home.

IMO these 'tributes' should be taken down, and the Police should be telling the friends/family not to come back. But no doubt they'll complain about their human rights!


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## chrisd (Apr 10, 2018)

This, all day long ^^^^^^^^


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## Robster59 (Apr 10, 2018)

They're also putting these (HAH!) "tributes" on someone elses property.  But you can bet that they would provide severe intimidation to him protesting if he wanted them taking down.  This is why I said I could see it escalating.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 10, 2018)

In this instance, I feel it's obvious intimidation.
 As far as the trend for "shrines", I dont like them full stop. Even more so when it's on someone elses private property.
I see on the news the person the police wanted to talk to in conjunction with this event, had his van found dumped and burnt out in a certain part of Kent. An area known for certain elements of society.

I remember years back driving down this particular lane, and becasue I wouldnt stop for a gang of "young men" my van was subject to a hail of half bricks stored and placed in readiness.
At that time, the Police very very rarely went there.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 10, 2018)

He is low life scum who preyed on the elderly. A quick look on google pictures at the physical state that some of the elderly have been left in should ensure that no one sheds a tear for him. He should have no " shrine".
whether he is a traveller or not is irrelevant, he was scum.


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2018)

Have the Police block the road, then remove the shrine and then have a Police presence there till tempers cool. Anyone that wants to argue the toss, in the cell and then before a magistrate and 15 days calling off. Harsh but a message needs to be sent out The scum are winning ownership of the streets, and its about time an effort was made to win them back.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Have the Police block the road, then remove the shrine and then have a Police presence there till tempers cool. Anyone that wants to argue the toss, in the cell and then before a magistrate and 15 days calling off. Harsh but a message needs to be sent out The scum are winning ownership of the streets, and its about time an effort was made to win them back.
		
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Hobbit for primeminister.^^^

Then we can start a topic saying how bad Hobbit is doin on this forum &#128513;


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 11, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Hobbit for primeminister.^^^

Then we can start a topic saying how bad Hobbit is doin on this forum &#62977;
		
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I'd vote for him but he's a foreigner who keeps telling us how hot it is on his home course .....   ;-)    Spot on with the post though Hobby!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2018)

Reflecting on this - I think I'd just leave the flowers where they are - as much as I personally might find that very difficult or gross...

My reasoning is based on principles that, unfortunately, I suspect that I would get ridiculed over were I to be more more explicit. So I won't be.

But if - as is possible or even likely - removal of the 'tributes' exacerbates the situation, then that to my mind is to no-ones benefit; and would not support any healing between the deceased man's family and community, and Mr Osborn-Brook and the local community.  And some healing there has to be.


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reflecting on this - I think I'd just leave the flowers where they are - as much as I personally might find that very difficult or gross...

My reasoning is based on principles that, unfortunately, I suspect that I would get ridiculed over were I to be more more explicit. So I won't be.

But if - as is possible or even likely - removal of the 'tributes' exacerbates the situation, then that to my mind is to no-ones benefit; and would not support any healing between the deceased man's family and community, and Mr Osborn-Brook and the local community.  And some healing there has to be.
		
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Firstly, if the criminal is part of a large traveller family then I would argue that they are not part of the community.
Secondly, the person who owns the fence where the flowers are placed does not want them on his fence.
Thirdly, any possible rifts that need to be healed were caused by the criminal and so it's his families' responsibility to start that process but instead they have issued death threats for revenge against the victim.
Lastly, the community has done nothing wrong, why should it have to 'turn the other cheek' to heal a rift caused by someone who was outside their community?


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## Beezerk (Apr 11, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Lastly, the community has done nothing wrong, why should it have to 'turn the other cheek' to heal a rift caused by someone who was outside their community?
		
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That's travellers for you though, cause absolute chaos and destruction wherever they go and leave you behind to pick up the pieces.
Although it leaves a huge bad taste in my mouth, I'd be tempted to let them have their couple of days of grieving (or winding the up the community depending on how you view it) and let them bugger off.
Police should have done more though, for the real victim to be forced out of his home and have death threats seems a failure on their part.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 11, 2018)

From what I remember there are 2 permanent sites for travellers in the area, so they won't bugger off.

Probably why the guy who was burgled will never be able to return safely.


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## Beezerk (Apr 11, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			From what I remember there are 2 permanent sites for travellers in the area, so they won't bugger off.
		
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Hmm, didn't know that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 11, 2018)

If they want a shrine, have one in their home, not the place where he traumatised an elderly couple. Those poor people have enough to deal with without seeing tributes to the man who terrified them outside their window.

I'm with Hobbit on this, post a copper there for a couple of days to move things along.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			That's travellers for you though, cause absolute chaos and destruction wherever they go and leave you behind to pick up the pieces.
*Although it leaves a huge bad taste in my mouth, I'd be tempted to let them have their couple of days of grieving (or winding the up the community depending on how you view it) and let them bugger off.*
Police should have done more though, for the real victim to be forced out of his home and have death threats seems a failure on their part.
		
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This for me is the bottom line that at least forms the basis for things calming down.  The community feeling of having been violated is painful and very upsetting, but it is not a case of the community having to _'turn the the cheek'_ - it is more to do with the community appreciating and accepting that the right thing to do may not be what it wants to do at this highly emotional time.


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			it is more to do with the community appreciating and accepting that the right thing to do may not be what it wants to do at this highly emotional time.
		
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Why should the community have to do the right thing and who decides what the right thing is? 

The right thing in my opinion would be the people making death threats should be arrested and the police should make life for the rest of their community 'uncomfortable'  until they move on.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 11, 2018)

Methinks its the family of the 'violator' that need to be taking a long hard look at themselves... 
And, find a way of showing some remorse for the hurt the actions a member of their family has caused...


Currently they appear hell bent on causing only further harm and hurt...


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## Beezerk (Apr 11, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Methinks its the family of the 'violator' that need to be taking a long hard look at themselves... 
And, find a way of showing some remorse for the hurt the actions a member of their family has caused...


Currently they appear hell bent on causing only further harm and hurt...
		
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They are travellers mate, they don't do remorse, they only do headlong into whatever they want, sod everyone else.


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## Hobbit (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This for me is the bottom line that at least forms the basis for things calming down.  The community feeling of having been violated is painful and very upsetting, but it is not a case of the community having to _'turn the the cheek'_ - it is more to do with the community appreciating and accepting that the right thing to do may not be what it wants to do at this highly emotional time.
		
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The scroat's family have said an eye for an eye. Should the local community really just turn the other cheek with that threat hanging over them? It takes two sides to find the middle ground in anything, and from the comments I've read from the traveller's side that isn't happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The scroat's family have said an eye for an eye. Should the local community really just turn the other cheek with that threat hanging over them? It takes two sides to find the middle ground in anything, and from the comments I've read from the traveller's side that isn't happening.
		
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An eye-for-an-eye threat is something quite abhorrent - but that does not stop the local community from trying to not exacerbate matters.  Let the police deal with threats.  Just don't give the 'scroat's' family or community grounds (as they might see them) for raging 'war' on the whole community.


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An eye-for-an-eye threat is something quite abhorrent -* but that does not stop the local community from trying to not exacerbate matters*.  Let the police deal with threats.  Just don't give the 'scroat's' family or community grounds (as they might see them) for raging 'war' on the whole community.
		
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So it's up to the local community to not upset the travellers?
In my opinion you've got it completely back to front.


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## Hobbit (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An eye-for-an-eye threat is something quite abhorrent - but that does not stop the local community from trying to not exacerbate matters.  Let the police deal with threats.  Just don't give the 'scroat's' family or community grounds (as they might see them) for raging 'war' on the whole community.
		
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Why do the victims have to back down? Its the travellers who aren't showing sensitivity to the local community. There's nothing stopping the travellers from having a shrine back at their site.

Sorry but we won't agree on this one. I'm fed up of the victims always being the ones who have to consider the poor criminals and their families. Stuff 'em as far as I'm concerned.


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## Orikoru (Apr 11, 2018)

His family are entitled to mourn his passing - but the place for flowers is his grave. Nowhere else. Certainly not outside the home of a victim of one of his crimes. The police should be ensuring any 'shrine' is removed. It could certainly be interpreted as a display of indignation designed to intimidate the poor old man.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 11, 2018)

I think you'll find those getting involved with removing the flowers aren't from the 'local community' as such... From what I can gather many of the neighbours are elderly and were probably next on the list to be cheated/robbed and probably grateful they weren't the household attacked in the first place...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So it's up to the local community to not upset the travellers?
In my opinion you've got it completely back to front.
		
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Sometimes it is necessary to do something that you don't want to do (or not do something that you *do* want to do) to achieve the best outcome possible.

You have a 'hornets' nest in your garden - OK then - go ahead and kick it.  Or just leave it alone and get the pest controllers in.


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## One Planer (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sometimes it is necessary to do something that you don't want to do (or not do something that you *do* want to do) to achieve the best outcome possible.

You have a 'hornets' nest in your garden - OK then - go ahead and kick it.  Or just leave it alone and get the pest controllers in.
		
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Or set fire to it and burn them out.

I'm no advocate for violence but sometimes you have to draw a line.


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sometimes it is necessary to do something that you don't want to do (or not do something that you *do* want to do) to achieve the best outcome possible.

You have a 'hornets' nest in your garden - OK then - go ahead and kick it.  Or just leave it alone and get the pest controllers in.
		
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So you're comparing travellers with a hornets nest?
Unbelievable 

I've said my piece on this and I see no reason to repeat myself.
I'm out


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So you're comparing travellers with a hornets nest?
Unbelievable 

I've said my piece on this and I see no reason to repeat myself.
I'm out
		
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I really don't know why you have taken offence...I am simply saying that what you might want to do - even might desperately want to do - is sometimes - indeed it is often - not the best or *right *thing to do.  I do not see why that might be such a difficult concept to grasp.

If I were in the local community I might well want to tear down their 'shrine' and tell them where to go - but I am not sure that that is the best thing to do.  The _best _thing for the community to do may well be to just let it be - don't make things worse than they already are - and let the police deal with any follow-up trouble from the deceased guys family and friends.


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## IanM (Apr 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The _best _thing for the community to do may well be to just let it be - don't make things worse than they already are - and let the police deal with any follow-up trouble from the deceased guys family and friends.
		
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That's called intimidation.  But you could be right, leaving it is better than getting beaten up or your house torched.  But it is still intimidation.  Ah, those mugs who pay rates and behave eh?  What are they like?


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 11, 2018)

I can only see this escalating if those laying the flowers dont stop their laying and veiled threats. There are quite a few traveller fixed sites not far from this location, just as there is an estate just up the road known as being a little "interesting" where those who did Stephen Lawrence come from, and where S Lawrence was murdered.

I can easily see many "sarf londoners" seeking retribution on those who are hounding a pensioner.


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## Imurg (Apr 11, 2018)

I'm amazed this is still going on.
The only thing that should have happened from the start is the "shrine" gets removed.
Simple!es.
If the family tries to replace it - arrest them
If they threaten residents - arrest them
If they don't stop - arrest them again and lock them up for a month.
I don't get how anyone can think anything else.....


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## spongebob59 (Apr 11, 2018)

Problem is the police are percieved as generally not doing anything if they have to deal with travellers.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 11, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Problem is the police are percieved as generally not doing anything if they have to deal with travellers.
		
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Probably because they scream persecution all the time and civil liberties infringements.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 11, 2018)

&#8203;http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/ne...-burglar-for-a-third-time-181194/#commentsBox


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 11, 2018)

All you want is for the announcer at the next Milwall home game, to say the old guy was a Milwall fan or season ticket holder.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2018)

These Travelers are an ethnic minority and shouldn't be persecuted for their cultural identities. We have a duty to provide them with sites to live in where they have access to humane services where they can pursue their special cultural lifestyles, like paying no taxes, providing pensioners with lightweight tarmac drives, extortionately expensive bodged home repairs and burglary.


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## chrisd (Apr 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			These Travelers are an ethnic minority and shouldn't be persecuted for their cultural identities. We have a duty to provide them with sites to live in where they have access to humane services where they can pursue their special cultural lifestyles, like paying no taxes, providing pensioners with lightweight tarmac drives, extortionately expensive bodged home repairs and burglary.
		
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And stealing a vibrating roller and trailer from my yard one evening a few years back.


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## drdel (Apr 11, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Problem is the police are percieved as generally not doing anything if they have to deal with travellers.
		
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Its reported the Police have told those taking the 'shrine' down may be charged with breach of the peace  !!! The prisoners really are designing the prison.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 11, 2018)

This lot were the mob that were rumoured to be behind the break in at Pedham place on the Friday before the opening of the new clubhouse and nicking everything including all the copper pipe work.


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## andycap (Apr 11, 2018)

They should put the flowers in the gutter , where his 'mate' left him.


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## Lazkir (Apr 11, 2018)

drdel said:



			Its reported the Police have told those taking the 'shrine' down may be charged with breach of the peace  !!! The prisoners really are designing the prison.
		
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Typical of modern day coppers tbh, pick the easy targets.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2018)

IanM said:



*That's called intimidation.*  But you could be right, leaving it is better than getting beaten up or your house torched.  But it is still intimidation.  Ah, those mugs who pay rates and behave eh?  What are they like?
		
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...and/or acceptance...of a event that has happened that you cannot change.  Whereas by *not *reacting negatively to the shrine, you are making a _positive _decision to try and have a _positive _impact on what might happen next.  In doing that you are not cowering away intimidated - you are standing up and positively saying that I am willing to try and make things OK - because I don't want things to deteriorate.

Just a different way, I suggest, of looking at what can be said and done.

And if things don't change and trouble persists - well - you've done your bit so hell mend 'em.


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## Lazkir (Apr 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...*and/or acceptance...of a event that has happened that you cannot change*.  Whereas by *not *reacting negatively to the shrine, you are making a _positive _decision to try and have a _positive _impact on what might happen next.  In doing that you are not cowering away intimidated - you are standing up and positively saying that I am willing to try and make things OK - because I don't want things to deteriorate.

Just a different way, I suggest, of looking at what can be said and done.

And if things don't change and trouble persists - well - you've done your bit so hell mend 'em.
		
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What, like Brexit?

Anyway, it's not up to the victims to accept anything. It's for the perpetrators to stop doing what they are doing. But we know that's not going to stop, and we know the police will follow the path of least resistance and therefore target whoever is taking the flowers down.

To paraphrase a certain politician..  a little less understanding, and a lot more condemnation is what is required.
Those who continually make excuses for these  pathetic excuses for human beings, only serve to give them succour and encouragement!


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## User2021 (Apr 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and/or acceptance...of a event that has happened that you cannot change.  Whereas by *not *reacting negatively to the shrine, you are making a _positive _decision to try and have a _positive _impact on what might happen next.  In doing that you are not cowering away intimidated - you are standing up and positively saying that I am willing to try and make things OK - because I don't want things to deteriorate.

Just a different way, I suggest, of looking at what can be said and done.

And if things don't change and trouble persists - well - you've done your bit so hell mend 'em.
		
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PM me your address, I will pop round and nail up a load of **** on your fence.
The guy is a career criminal, praying on the elderly - anyone associated with him or offering their support is utter scum.

Imagine your own mother, not very well in bed and some utter stain of society breaking in to her house armed with tools with intent to rob and cause injury


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## Junior (Apr 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and/or acceptance...of a event that has happened that you cannot change.  Whereas by *not *reacting negatively to the shrine, you are making a _positive _decision to try and have a _positive _impact on what might happen next.  In doing that you are not cowering away intimidated - you are standing up and positively saying that I am willing to try and make things OK - because I don't want things to deteriorate.

Just a different way, I suggest, of looking at what can be said and done.

And if things don't change and trouble persists - well - you've done your bit so hell mend 'em.
		
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I appreciate its a different way of looking at it, and, yes, its the most peaceful as it does not upset those who will cause the most disruption. It's the path of least resistance for the authorities and by allowing the shrine, the police are indirectly siding the criminals and in my mind not protecting the rights of Mr and Mrs Osborn-Brooks.   


Do you think its right that to 'keep the peace'  an elderly pensioner and his disable wife have been forced out of their home.  Their windows have had to be boarded up and CCTV has had to be installed.   What do you think would have happened if they remained in their home given that  they have received death threats, and threats of their house being burnt down with them in it ?   Imagine working all your life, caring for your disabled wife in her elderly years, and then being forced out of the home you had worked most of your life to pay for.   Those civil rights are what the police should be defending .


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 12, 2018)

SILH......you are one very deluded man.


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2018)

It is a different way of looking at it all right.  But absolutely wrong and stupid.

What bit of burglary and intimidation are you struggling to understand?


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## Robster59 (Apr 12, 2018)

Unfortunately, we have here a group of people who protect their own, no matter what.  If you look at the history of what the whole family have done, not just this man, in preying on elderly and weak folk, they obviously have no morals outside their own little group.  
Everyone else is fair game and heaven help anyone who crosses them.  That can't be right and as has been said, there has been severe intimidation to an old man who stood up to one of them.  How dare he?  How dare he protect himself and his own property?  
They have no real morals by conventional civilised society and until something is done to curb their behaviour, they will continue to think they can act outside the law with impunity.


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## londonlewis (Apr 12, 2018)

A guy has taken all the flowers down and redistibuted them among tombstones in a graveyard. 

Sorry if everyone knows this. Saw a video on Twitter.


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## Robster59 (Apr 12, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			A guy has taken all the flowers down and redistibuted them among tombstones in a graveyard. 

Sorry if everyone knows this. Saw a video on Twitter.
		
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I can't say I'd want any flowers associated with him on my Dad's or Brothers grave.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2018)

It's a pity that there is no room for an alternative point of view on these boards if it deviates from a hard-line.  Instead all you are asking for is abuse and derision.

I am not saying that the sort of acceptance and trying to not escalate things I have suggested is necessarily the best or the most appropriate response in the circumstances of this event - but it is not without merits and worth considering - but I guess the response I have got from suggesting it is not something I need be surprised about from some on here.

That the family of the deceased seem completely oblivious to the hurt and offense they are causing and their apparent total lack of shame is a very sad reflection on them - though it may well be something they are quite happy with - and that they don't actually care what others think.

If they'd apologised and not taken the view that they have then what I have suggested might have been appropriate.


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2018)

your 3rd paragraph demonstrates the foolishness of the first.   That's why


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2018)

IanM said:



			your 3rd paragraph demonstrates the foolishness of the first.   That's why
		
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I do not consider the 1st being foolish thank you very much...I simply suggested an alternative point of view or approach to such an issue - one indeed that the Met seem to have adopted, maybe they are foolish also.

BTW - I should note that I have little if any sympathy for the guys family.  I am sorry their family member died - but their subsequent actions makes it difficult for (even) me to accept my own argument.


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not consider the 1st being foolish thank you very much... but their subsequent actions makes it difficult for (even) me to accept my own argument.
		
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So, if you don't accept your own argument, is it, or isn't, a foolish one?   (hint: have a GUESS)


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's a pity that there is no room for an alternative point of view on these boards if it deviates from a hard-line.  Instead all you are asking for is abuse and derision.
		
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There is room, you are giving it. The fact is though that no one else agrees with it. Reading your recent post, you don't really agree with it either. The fact is though you or anyone else is able to offer a view but it is naÃ¯ve to expect a swell of support for it.


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## User62651 (Apr 12, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, if you don't accept your own argument, is it, or isn't, a foolish one?   (hint: have a GUESS)
		
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He said difficult to accept. Difficult to accept and don't accept are not the same. A moral dilemma can make things difficult to accept but you still accept them.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is room, you are giving it. The fact is though that no one else agrees with it. Reading your recent post, you don't really agree with it either. The fact is though you or anyone else is able to offer a view but it is naÃ¯ve to expect a swell of support for it.
		
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Beat me to it. 

The traveller's family and friends want their shrine and they want to kill the OAP and anyone who gets in their way. And when you hear them justify burglary and conning people... they are just about the lowest scum you can imagine. And the Police are saying anyone disrupting the shrine may be charged with a breach of the peace. What is illegal about removing litter?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 12, 2018)

Although the situation will soon disappear from the news this is an issue that will have an impact for probably years to come...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			He said difficult to accept. Difficult to accept and don't accept are not the same. A moral dilemma can make things difficult to accept but you still accept them.
		
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Exactly.  That the circumstances of this event, and the family and friends of the deceased are not at all likeable in their attitude and behaviour, makes it very hard to have any sympathy whatsoever for their grief and for acceptance of their wish for some form of shrine.  That they seem hell-bent on some form of confrontation and provocation, and not interested at all in any form of reconciliation with the Osborn-Brooks, makes things problematic for the authorities.

That said I might still suggest that the locals should be wary about doing anything that might exacerbate the situation - for their own good - but leave it in the hands of the authorities.


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## andycap (Apr 12, 2018)

They should put the flowers in the gutter , where his 'mate' left him for dead .
And i bet the travelling community are hiding him .


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2018)

My god, what a load of left wing, religious, tree hugging drivel, once again the victim (the oap) is being asked to kiss and make up so the scum can have an unofficial shrine which is offensive to every normal law abiding person who sees this as it really is, travellers that are thieves and career criminals wanting their own way, or else, and even our plod are succumbing to them, which is disgraceful. 

The authorities think itâ€™s right to constantly take Lee Rigbyâ€™s tributes down as they say it looks unsightly and yet they pander to these scummy travellers in an attempt to keep the peace. 

The worlds gone mad and people with the attitude of SILH donâ€™t help and are far removed from reality looking at life through their rose tinted glasses. 

Go to their camp and sprout your goodness to them whilst they pick your pockets and steel your hubcaps, your deluded beyond help, and you wonâ€™t jump the queue through the pearly gates with your â€˜letâ€™s all have a hug and it will go away thinkingâ€™, your as dangerous as them imo as your so far removed from reality and the real world itâ€™s scary. 

6 murders in Coventry in 10 days, plus 1 kidnapping and suspected murder as the body hadnâ€™t been found yet, but evidence of a brutal attack and torture has, thatâ€™s real life and no kind words or succumbing to threats to keep the peace will change it, the real victims, not the dead pikey, are persecuted when defending whatâ€™s theirs and the scumbags are getting their own way. 

Broken Britain ðŸ˜¡


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2018)

Fish said:



*My god,* what a load of left wing, *religious*, tree hugging drivel, once again the victim (the oap) is being asked to kiss and make up so the scum can have an unofficial shrine which is offensive to every normal law abiding person who sees this as it really is, travellers that are thieves and career criminals wanting their own way, or else, and even our plod are succumbing to them, which is disgraceful. 

The authorities think itâ€™s right to constantly take Lee Rigbyâ€™s tributes down as they say it looks unsightly and yet they pander to these scummy travellers in an attempt to keep the peace. 

The worlds gone mad and people with the attitude of SILH donâ€™t help and are far removed from reality looking at life through their rose tinted glasses. 

Go to their camp and sprout your goodness to them whilst they pick your pockets and steel your hubcaps, your deluded beyond help, and you wonâ€™t jump the queue through the pearly gates with your â€˜letâ€™s all have a hug and it will go away thinkingâ€™, your as dangerous as them imo as your so far removed from reality and the real world itâ€™s scary. 

6 murders in Coventry in 10 days, plus 1 kidnapping and suspected murder as the body hadnâ€™t been found yet, but evidence of a brutal attack and torture has, thatâ€™s real life and no kind words or succumbing to threats to keep the peace will change it, the real victims, not the dead pikey, are persecuted when defending whatâ€™s theirs and the scumbags are getting their own way. 

Broken Britain ðŸ˜¡
		
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Well you got *that *bit right - though where you found a religious aspect to the 'drivel' coming in, or why you had to bring religion into it at all I do not know.


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## Sweep (Apr 13, 2018)

Why is it people feel the need to place flowers etc at the place of a persons demise,  but not if they die peacefully or otherwise in, say a hospital bed? Is it a need to show your sorrow in a public way? Is it more about what others think of you rather than what you think of the deceased?

BTW Hogie, no-one seriously believes that protecting those who purposely and continually do the wrong thing is doing the right thing. No-one seriously believes that not confronting evil will make evil people good. Rewarding evil will not make the world a better place. It will just make it an evil world. Sad but true.
If you are really so intent on doing the right thing and not just starting another wind up thread, then start thinking about the victim who was subject to an unprovoked attack in his own home and then forced from his own home. Confront evil where you see it and promote good over evil. Persuade bad people to change their ways. Those are the right things to do.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 13, 2018)

Been avoiding posting on here as it was always going to get heated, but anyone who genuinely believes that this shrine is a noble honourable act is off their rocker! These travellers are well versed in imtimidation and this is further proof of it. If the oap had died, they'd have hidden the scum bag away and paid no respect to the old chap!

I wonder if these travelers pitched up at your golf course to exercise their self given right to stop over anywhere you'd welcome them with open arms? But we know that really you'd be up in arms, but yeah by all means support them in the hostile bullying of an innocent man. The thief got everything he deserved, the old boy deserves a pat on the back and to be able to live his life in peace.


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Been avoiding posting on here as it was always going to get heated, but anyone who genuinely believes that this shrine is a noble honourable act is off their rocker! These travellers are well versed in imtimidation and this is further proof of it. *If the oap had died, they'd have hidden the scum bag away and paid no respect to the old chap!*

I wonder if these travelers pitched up at your golf course to exercise their self given right to stop over anywhere you'd welcome them with open arms? But we know that really you'd be up in arms, but yeah by all means support them in the hostile bullying of an innocent man. The thief got everything he deserved, the old boy deserves a pat on the back and to be able to live his life in peace.
		
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You got that exactly right!


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## User2021 (Apr 13, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Been avoiding posting on here as it was always going to get heated, but anyone who genuinely believes that this shrine is a noble honourable act is off their rocker! These travellers are well versed in imtimidation and this is further proof of it. If the oap had died, they'd have hidden the scum bag away and paid no respect to the old chap!

I wonder if these travelers pitched up at your golf course to exercise their self given right to stop over anywhere you'd welcome them with open arms? But we know that really you'd be up in arms, but yeah by all means support them in the hostile bullying of an innocent man. The thief got everything he deserved, the old boy deserves a pat on the back and to be able to live his life in peace.
		
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Exactly

Has his companion who left him in the gutter like a sewer rate been found yet?
Or are the travelling community protecting him away?


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## Tashyboy (Apr 13, 2018)

reminds me of the farmer, Tony Martin who shot and killed a traveller who was trying to rob him. Once more they were preying on the vulnerable. These people have no respect, and deserve none back.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 13, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Been avoiding posting on here as it was always going to get heated, *but anyone who genuinely believes that this shrine is a noble honourable act *is off their rocker! These travellers are well versed in imtimidation and this is further proof of it. If the oap had died, they'd have hidden the scum bag away and paid no respect to the old chap!

I wonder if these travelers pitched up at your golf course to exercise their self given right to stop over anywhere you'd welcome them with open arms? But we know that really you'd be up in arms, but yeah by all means support them in the hostile bullying of an innocent man. The thief got everything he deserved, the old boy deserves a pat on the back and to be able to live his life in peace.
		
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it is.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it is.
		
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No one except your protestations about we should all be thinking of the dead mans family.
Respect for humanity is an equal street, and cannot be biased towards the families of guilty and dead criminals no matter where they come from.

If the perp hadnâ€™t been in someone elseâ€™s house brandishing a screwdriver he wouldnâ€™t be dead, and that is no one elseâ€™s fault other than his own.
Stop defending the indefensible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 13, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			No one except your protestations about we should all be thinking of the dead mans family.
Respect for humanity is an equal street, and cannot be biased towards the families of guilty and dead criminals no matter where they come from.

If the perp hadnâ€™t been in someone elseâ€™s house brandishing a screwdriver he wouldnâ€™t be dead, and that is no one elseâ€™s fault other than his own.
Stop defending the indefensible.
		
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If you read what I posted you will find that there are two aspects to what I was saying.  One is that - yes - the dead man's family are due some consideration - in that they start no different from any family who has lost someone.  That we don't like this lot, and that they are acting obnoxiously and provocatively makes it less likely we'll consider their concerns and feelings very much, or for very long - and that is pretty much where I stand with them.  Had they acted differently or shown some contrition and shame then I *might *have thought otherwise.

But the other - for me possibly more important - aspect of what I have said is that - for me - it is not always worth acting on how I feel - what my will and my reactions tell me to do, if acting so takes me down a road that ends up with greater problems for myself and others.  I try and look a little further down the road than 'the immediate' and aim to do the best thing for myself and the others around me in the 'turn out'.

I refute the allegation that am I even _attempting _to defend the indefensible where the indefensible is the actions of the perpetrator of the crime.


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## DaveR (Apr 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you read what I posted you will find that there are two aspects to what I was saying.  One is that -* yes - the dead man's family are due some consideration* - in that they start no different from any family who has lost someone.
		
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If the dead man's family were showing some remorse for what he did then maybe I would agree with this but that isn't the case. From what I can see they only want 'revenge' on a pensioner whose only 'crime' was to defend himself in his own house. They cannot seem to accept that he was a wrong'un and got what was coming to him. I wonder how many times they pleaded with him not to break into houses and not to rip people off. I suspect not very often! So quite simply, they are not due any consideration from any decent law abiding citizen.


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## IanM (Apr 13, 2018)

Top Trolling as usual.... post some nonsense, then spends several days in reverse!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 13, 2018)

IanM said:



			Top Trolling as usual.... post some nonsense, then spends several days in reverse!
		
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Sorry - I started by saying I was conflicted and I stated why.  As it has become more evident as the days have gone by that the family - even in their grief - are not behaving in a way that might have afforded their grief some respect and consideration, I struggle to make any case on grounds of compassion for letting their shrine be.

But I still maintain that it is perhaps best for the locals that they stay on the moral high ground (not difficult given who they are faced-off to) and do as little as possible to exacerbate the situation.  Let the authorities deal with any intimidation and issues arising - and let them remove the flowers to a separate place or let just let them wither.

BTW - I don't understand what you mean by 'trolling' and I don't know what it is.


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## User2021 (Apr 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTW - I don't understand what you mean by 'trolling' and I don't know what it is.
		
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https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling


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## ADB (Apr 13, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			reminds me of the farmer, Tony Martin who shot and killed a traveller who was trying to rob him. Once more they were preying on the vulnerable. These people have no respect, and deserve none back.
		
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Slightly different case in that Tony Martin was laying in wait to shoot the intruders so was classed as premeditated rather than self defence - doesnâ€™t excuse the actions of the robbers but it was different.


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## chrisd (Apr 13, 2018)

Just wait until the funeral  - Im sure he'll be hailed as a hero by their community, I hope he rots in he'll


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Just wait until the funeral  - Im sure he'll be hailed as a hero by their community, I hope he rots in he'll
		
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Thereâ€™re probably selling the TV rights to Sky, Gypsy Funerals ðŸ˜œ


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2018)

Fish said:



			Thereâ€™re probably selling the TV rights to Sky, Gypsy Funerals ï˜œ
		
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Big Fat Gypsy Funeral.


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## drdel (Apr 14, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Just wait until the funeral  - Im sure he'll be hailed as a hero by their community, I hope he rots in he'll
		
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The planned route is via the street where the crime occured, surely the police should declare this as a likely breach of the place.


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## Sweep (Apr 16, 2018)

According to ITN the intruders family and friends are marking his birthday by trying to hang Birthday balloons outside the pensioners home.
https://t.co/SVETv17v5T

what does his birthday have to do with the place of his death? Surely this is intimidation now?


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## spongebob59 (Apr 16, 2018)

Local radio reports the council have now removed them.


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## Fish (Apr 16, 2018)

There needs to be a injunction put in place!


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 16, 2018)

They need to block the road off to stop any kind of funeral procession going past the house.   Bunch of thieving nasty law-ignoring scrotes.


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## Beezerk (Apr 16, 2018)

They've probably been checking out other potential house to break in while they are on the street.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2018)

Pathetic Shark said:



			They need to block the road off to stop any kind of funeral procession going past the house.   Bunch of thieving nasty law-ignoring scrotes.
		
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Law-ignoring as 'in general', or have they ignored any specific laws in respect of this lose-lose mess?


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## IanM (Apr 16, 2018)

Breaking and entering, threatening behaviour..... ignored relation's participation in former actively participating in latter.  Plenty of other cases to be taken in consideration too. 

That'll do for now.

Drat, I said I wouldnt rise to any more trolling!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2018)

IanM said:



			Breaking and entering, threatening behaviour..... ignored relation's participation in former actively participating in latter.

That'll do for now.
		
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I was simply asking for clarification about whether the comment was in general, or specific to current events. 

Because - yes - I do understand that burglary is breaking the law - but thankyou for reminding me. 

The post was talking about his friends and relatives.  And yes - I do know that their threatening behaviour could most certainly be construed as law-breaking under the Public Order Act - and that is why the authorities should deal with this.

But thankyou for reminding me.


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## chrisd (Apr 16, 2018)

I'm sitting in my office this morning waiting for the police to arrive to look at cctv from Saturday when about 20 traveler gentlemen gatecrashed a private party and punched people, caused damage etc etc. the party was a private birthday for a 70 year old who ended up being assaulted by these arsewipes - I'll not go further about them as I really don't want a lengthy ban !


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was simply asking for clarification *about whether the comment was in general*, or specific to current events. 

Because - yes - I do understand that burglary is breaking the law - but thankyou for reminding me. 

The post was talking about his friends and relatives.  And yes - I do know that their threatening behaviour could most certainly be construed as law-breaking under the Public Order Act - and that is why the authorities should deal with this.

But thankyou for reminding me.
		
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If not then it should have been.


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## Sweep (Apr 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was simply asking for clarification about whether the comment was in general, or specific to current events. 

Because - yes - I do understand that burglary is breaking the law - but thankyou for reminding me. 

The post was talking about his friends and relatives.  And yes - I do know that their threatening behaviour could most certainly be construed as law-breaking under the Public Order Act - and that is why the authorities should deal with this.

But thankyou for reminding me.
		
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To be fair, by asking the question you asked to be reminded.
I do get that you are trying to get us all to question our own consciences about an emotive subject. However, I do not believe people should be ashamed or in the least concerned that they are horrified by what has happened and in particular the way the law abiding party has been intimidated to the extent that they have had to leave their home. I do not believe people should be ashamed or concerned about their reaction to the authorities seemingly supporting the interests of the guilty partyâ€™s relatives and friends over the innocent. 
These are natural reactions for any right minded and law abiding individual.
I believe that in emotive cases there is a very fine line between playing devils advocate and trolling. You seem to be questioning most peopleâ€™s natural reaction whilst eventually and conveniently admitting you agree with them. This causes me to question your intentions regarding this thread.
Just my opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2018)

Sweep said:



			To be fair, by asking the question you asked to be reminded.
I do get that you are trying to get us all to question our own consciences about an emotive subject. However, I do not believe people should be ashamed or in the least concerned that they are horrified by what has happened and in particular the way the law abiding party has been intimidated to the extent that they have had to leave their home. I do not believe people should be ashamed or concerned about their reaction to the authorities seemingly supporting the interests of the guilty partyâ€™s relatives and friends over the innocent. 
These are natural reactions for any right minded and law abiding individual.
I believe that in emotive cases there is a very fine line between playing devils advocate and trolling. You seem to be questioning most peopleâ€™s natural reaction whilst eventually and conveniently admitting you agree with them. This causes me to question your intentions regarding this thread.
*Just my opinion.*

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And one I shall reflect on.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 17, 2018)

SILH. I admire your tenacity but think you are going to struggle to win this one despite your best persuasive efforts.

However how would your position be if it was your own wife in your home and a serious attack occurred which may have resulted in her demise?

Hypothetical I know and pleased she was not involved.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2018)

3offTheTee said:



			SILH. I admire your tenacity but think you are going to struggle to win this one despite your best persuasive efforts.

However how would your position be if it was your own wife in your home and a serious attack occurred which may have resulted in her demise?

Hypothetical I know and pleased she was not involved.
		
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I am not trying to win anything on this.  

I simply said that at the outset I was conflicted over the 'shrine' - seeing the upset it would cause to the locals, but the risk of making things worse by removing it; and the need for the bereaved of anyone to be able to grieve in whatever way they found best, and the hope in this case that by leaving the 'shrine' alone there might be some healing between the two communities.

Initially I felt leaving it might be best...so as not to exacerbate and to aid healing - but as it has become clear that continued aggressive and threatening behaviour by the traveller community has clearly made healing very unlikely - that community loses most if not all of the empathy I might have felt to them in their grieving.

But I still reckon the best approach is for the local community to leave the 'shrine' alone - as much as they might wish to rip it down and stamp all over it - keep the moral high ground and leave dealing with 'shrine' and the family and friends of the deceased to the police.  The traveller community seem to have provocation of the locals in mind - and a wish for the locals to react - so have them fail in that.  And the police can ensure that any funeral does not go down that road under the Public Order Act.

And hypothesising on an event that even in the reality has not happened is, I think, not that helpful.  In any case - ask Gordon Wilson; Maureen Greaves; or the father of Stephen Lawrence, about forgiveness as opposed to holding anger and resentments over the murder of a close or dear one.  I hope I might respond as they have done.  But who knows.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was simply asking for clarification about whether the comment was in general, or specific to current events. 

Because - yes - I do understand that burglary is breaking the law - but thankyou for reminding me. 

*The post was talking about his friends and relatives.  And yes *- I do know that their threatening behaviour could most certainly be construed as law-breaking under the Public Order Act - and that is why the authorities should deal with this.

But thankyou for reminding me.
		
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His friends and family are all cut from the same cloth. They care about nobody but themselves.

This isnt a case of a good lad from a good family turned bad who has got in with the wrong crowd. 

Scum.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not trying to win anything on this.  

I simply said that at the outset I was conflicted over the 'shrine' - seeing the upset it would cause to the locals, but the risk of making things worse by removing it; and the need for the bereaved of anyone to be able to grieve in whatever way they found best, and the hope in this case that by leaving the 'shrine' alone there might be some healing between the two communities.

Initially I felt leaving it might be best...so as not to exacerbate and to aid healing - but as it has become clear that continued aggressive and threatening behaviour by the traveller community has clearly made healing very unlikely - that community loses most if not all of the empathy I might have felt to them in their grieving.

But I still reckon the best approach is for the local community to leave the 'shrine' alone - as much as they might wish to rip it down and stamp all over it - keep the moral high ground and leave dealing with 'shrine' and the family and friends of the deceased to the police.  The traveller community seem to have provocation of the locals in mind - and a wish for the locals to react - so have them fail in that.  And the police can ensure that any funeral does not go down that road under the Public Order Act.

And hypothesising on an event that even in the reality has not happened is, I think, not that helpful.  In any case - ask Gordon Wilson; Maureen Greaves; or the father of Stephen Lawrence, about forgiveness as opposed to holding anger and resentments over the murder of a close or dear one.  I hope I might respond as they have done.  But who knows.
		
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3 examples of people showing forgiveness in a world full of murder doesnâ€™t make it a usual response. 

If if I could have gotten my hands on those responsible for my sister many years ago I would have. Fortunately he met his own demise. 

That doesnt stop the grief for the lost loved one, but it did in my case at least offer a small ray of contentment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



*3 examples of people showing forgiveness in a world full of murder doesnâ€™t make it a usual response*. 

If if I could have gotten my hands on those responsible for my sister many years ago I would have. Fortunately he met his own demise. 

That doesnt stop the grief for the lost loved one, but it did in my case at least offer a small ray of contentment.
		
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No you are right - it doesn't - but that does not take away from the fact that there are actually plenty of folks out there living their lives as best they can, who have understood the importance of forgiveness - as very hard as it sometimes is.  The three examples are simply ones that have been very prominent over the years - the individuals expressing their forgiveness of those who perpetrated the most heinous of crimes against ones they loved and still love.   We can wonder how they can - but they can because they have the strength to do so and because they understand the importance of forgiveness.  But it's not for everyone.

I'll add, as I must, that the above comments are not made in the context of the specific incident we are talking about here - but in general in respect of forgiveness as that is the context of my reply to @Papas1982


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## spongebob59 (Apr 18, 2018)

Local radio saying the removal vans were there yesterday and looks like they are moving out.
Sad, could have been the family home and maybe now leaving because he was forced to protect his own property :rant:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Local radio saying the removal vans were there yesterday and looks like they are moving out.
Sad, could have been the family home and maybe now leaving because he was forced to protect his own property :rant:
		
Click to expand...

very sad indeed


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## User2021 (Apr 20, 2018)

I see they got his mate in North Kent earlier, the one who left his accomplice behind.


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