# Her Majesty's Lot at it again



## Stuart_C (Sep 18, 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37396039

And some people want them all to be armed

Authority gone to his head :rant:


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2016)

If a Police Officer tells you to get out of your car then you should get out of it.  I suppose this will be blown up to be some kind of racist incident and the 'Black Lives Matter' squad will close down an Airport


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## Stuart_C (Sep 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



*If a Police Officer tells you to get out of your car then you should get out of it.*  I suppose this will be blown up to be some kind of racist incident and the 'Black Lives Matter' squad will close down an Airport 

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That doesn't give him the right to start smashing his car to bits. The copper could've injured the driver  of the car with a shard of glass. 

If he's not been stopped under the Road traffic act then he didn't have to get out of his car.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			That doesn't give him the right to start smashing his car to bits. The copper could've injured the driver  of the car with a shard of glass. 

*If he's not been stopped under the Road traffic act then he didn't have to get out of his car*.
		
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Whats all that about.  If a Police office asks you to get out of your car then you absolutely should get out of it.  He should have considered himself lucky, in may countries he would have been shot.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats all that about.  If a Police office asks you to get out of your car then you absolutely should get out of it.  He should have considered himself lucky, in may countries he would have been shot.
		
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You cannot condone that coppers behaviour.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 18, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			That doesn't give him the right to start smashing his car to bits. The copper could've injured the driver  of the car with a shard of glass. 

If he's not been stopped under the Road traffic act then he didn't have to get out of his car.
		
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But that video doesn't show why the driver was stopped and the article clearly states "It is not known what led up to the incident". If I got stopped by the police for any reason and got told to get out of my car then I'd get out of my car. I have no idea of the ethnicity of the driver of that car and it might be different for me as a white, middle class male but in my opinion there is nothing to be gained, and plenty to be lost, by ignoring a direct instruction or order from a policeman.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			But that video doesn't show why the driver was stopped and the article clearly states "It is not known what led up to the incident". If I got stopped by the police for any reason and got told to get out of my car then I'd get out of my car. I have no idea of the ethnicity of the driver of that car and it might be different for me as a white, middle class male but in my opinion there is nothing to be gained, and plenty to be lost, by ignoring a direct instruction or order from a policeman.
		
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That still doesn't give that copper the right to do what he done. 

I've been stopped twice recently and both coppers have been polite when they've asked me to get out of my vehicle.


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## One Planer (Sep 18, 2016)

The fact the officer has been placed on restricted duties speaks volumes to me.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 18, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			That still doesn't give that copper the right to do what he done. 

I've been stopped twice recently and both coppers have been polite when they've asked me to get out of my vehicle.
		
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Why not? None of us knows how many times that officer had already asked him politely to get out of the car before the video started. It might have been that the driver had already been asked 5 or 6 times or more to get out of the car and then the situation escalated and ended up with the officer demanding the driver got out of the car. Are you suggesting that if necessary the officer should stand there all day saying "please get out of the car, sir"? Or at what point after the driver refuses to get out of the car is the officer allowed to think there might be an issue and escalate the situation?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 18, 2016)

Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and only damages the police's reputation making it more difficult for the overwhelming majority of officers who would never behave like that.

Apparently it was all a case of mistaken identity!!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 18, 2016)

One Planer said:



			The fact the officer has been placed on restricted duties speaks volumes to me.
		
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Is that not just standard practise when an incident occurs and an investigation is ongoing?


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## Stuart_C (Sep 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why not? None of us knows how many times that officer had already asked him politely to get out of the car before the video started. It might have been that the driver had already been asked 5 or 6 times or more to get out of the car and then the situation escalated and ended up with the officer demanding the driver got out of the car. Are you suggesting that if necessary the officer should stand there all day saying "please get out of the car, sir"? Or at what point after the driver refuses to get out of the car is the officer allowed to think there might be an issue and escalate the situation?
		
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Are you serious? 

He should at least have assistance from colleagues before he starts smashing the car up.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 18, 2016)

I hope he gets done for criminal damage, make an example out of him and give a 3 month stretch, just because they're police officers they too have to abide by the law.

Saying that, I wouldn't be Surprised if he gets away with it coming from such a corrupt organisation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If a Police Officer tells you to get out of your car then you should get out of it.  I suppose this will be blown up to be some kind of racist incident and the 'Black Lives Matter' squad will close down an Airport 

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Mistaken Identity and no arrest made, so let's blame the innocent guy, maybe if the copper had got his facts right he wouldn't of reacted the way he did, nothing in that report indicates ethnicity and for you to raise it it's a disgrace.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Are you serious? 

He should at least have assistance from colleagues before he starts smashing the car up.
		
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Yes, I'm serious. That video alone doesn't show enough evidence to decide whether the police officer was justified or not in taking the action he did and I'd rather wait until I have all the information before condemning him. If it turns out that the investigation shows that he was unjustified in what he did then I will be more than happy to admit he was wrong, but until then none of us knows. It's a bit like showing a video of a policeman shooting an "unarmed" man dead without showing the build up to the incident where the offender was waving a gun around and it just happened to be hidden behind his body when the video started.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Mistaken Identity and no arrest made, so let's blame the innocent guy, maybe if the copper had got his facts right he wouldn't of reacted the way he did, nothing in that report indicates ethnicity and for you to raise it it's a disgrace.
		
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No, lets blame the Policeman shall we, how was he to know if the Guy was innocent at the time if he wouldn't get out of the car when asked.   It's a disgrace that people want to blame the Police without understanding the full facts.   You would take a different view if you were faced with the type of crap Police Officers have to deal with these days.   Regarding ethnicity, did you hear the man in the cars voice?  He was asked repeatedly to get out the car and he was saying "I have a license and insurance"  What was the Police Officer supposed to say then "That's OK then, you say you have a License and Insurance so you can ignore me and get on your way, have a nice day Sir"    Get real!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			No, lets blame the Policeman shall we, how was he to know if the Guy was innocent at the time if he wouldn't get out of the car when asked.   It's a disgrace that people want to blame the Police without understanding the full facts.   You would take a different view if you were faced with the type of crap Police Officers have to deal with these days.   Regarding ethnicity, did you hear the man in the cars voice?  He was asked repeatedly to get out the car and he was saying "I have a license and insurance"  What was the Police Officer supposed to say then "That's OK then, you say you have a License and Insurance so you can ignore me and get on your way, have a nice day Sir"    Get real!
		
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It was mistaken identity, no arrests made, how can you blame the innocent man, you have brought race, black lives matter etc into it, disgraceful.
Let the authorities investigate and make judgement, instead you played the race card. Sad


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 19, 2016)

One Planer said:



			The fact the officer has been placed on restricted duties speaks volumes to me.
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			Is that not just standard practise when an incident occurs and an investigation is ongoing?
		
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Just re-read the article which say that ""as this matter is in its early stages, the officers have not been suspended or placed on restricted duties".


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just re-read the article which say that ""as this matter is in its early stages, the officers have not been suspended or placed on restricted duties".
		
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They have today mate.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/window-smashing-cop-put-restricted-8861942


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Are you serious? 

He should at least have assistance from colleagues before he starts smashing the car up.
		
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Just to follow up on this, the quote in my post above about the "officer*s*" not being placed on restricted duties seems to suggest that there was more than just the one officer on the scene so maybe the video doesn't show the "assistance from colleagues" that the officer has.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just to follow up on this, the quote in my post above about the "officer*s*" not being placed on restricted duties seems to suggest that there was more than just the one officer on the scene so maybe the video doesn't show the "assistance from colleagues" that the officer has.
		
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That video clearly shows another copper standing there near a marked car. 

You cannot defend his actions. If that was the other way round you'd be calling for the book to thrown at him.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 19, 2016)

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ffs_OMG/status/777551781761081344/video/1


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## Stuart_C (Sep 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes, I'm serious. That video alone doesn't show enough evidence to decide whether the police officer was justified or not in taking the action he did and I'd rather wait until I have all the information before condemning him. If it turns out that the investigation shows that he was unjustified in what he did then I will be more than happy to admit he was wrong, but until then none of us knows. It's a bit like showing a video of a policeman shooting an "unarmed" man dead without showing the build up to the incident where the offender was waving a gun around and it just happened to be hidden behind his body when the video started.
		
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Load of rubbish. The fella has not been arrested, that's more than enough evidence to suggest the copper was bang out of order.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 19, 2016)

Officer rightly on restricted duties and an investigation rightly taking place. Hard to condone the behaviour of either officer in the video, certainly with no arrests and mistaken identity, and you have to hope that if these officers did break the law in this, they get properly punished. Sadly the cynic in me feels that won't happen


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## Fish (Sep 19, 2016)

There's actually a lot more to this than is being published and for what is being discussed on here.  The driver disclosed himself only as TJ (I think) a number of times and was consistently obstructive at first giving no less than 2 alias when asked for his personal details, when checking those details they were all not the driver at the wheel, he then gave a name (not his) that was actually disqualified!  Without being able to safely identify the driver and he refusing to get out of the vehicle on numerous times prior to the video starting, they acted under PACE I believe to arrest him, were those actions OTT, yes, but he refused to hand over the keys of the vehicle and gave numerous false identities, so, at what time do the police scale it up, and how do they get at the person to arrest him who has given false information and refuses to get out the vehicle and will only speak through the small opening of the window?

Yes the police officer lost the plot a little (a lot), but it was to a degree a stand off, I'm no huge fan of plod, and as I state, it looks like he lost control of himself, but when faced with someone giving consistent false information there comes a time to act!


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## One Planer (Sep 19, 2016)

Fish said:



			There's actually a lot more to this than is being published and for what is being discussed on here.  The driver disclosed himself only as TJ (I think) a number of times and was consistently obstructive at first giving no less than 2 alias when asked for his personal details, when checking those details they were all not the driver at the wheel, he then gave a name (not his) that was actually disqualified!  Without being able to safely identify the driver and he refusing to get out of the vehicle on numerous times prior to the video starting, they acted under PACE I believe to arrest him, were those actions OTT, yes, but he refused to hand over the keys of the vehicle and gave numerous false identities, so, at what time do the police scale it up, and how do they get at the person to arrest him who has given false information and refuses to get out the vehicle and will only speak through the small opening of the window?

Yes the police officer lost the plot a little (a lot), but it was to a degree a stand off, I'm no huge fan of plod, and as I state, it looks like he lost control of himself, but when faced with someone giving consistent false information there comes a time to act!
		
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While I agree with most of that, the actions the officer took were not sufficient to remove the person from the vehicle.

What he did to the car in a futile attempt to gain access was, borderline, criminal damage.

His patrol partner can be seen standing idly by. When he saw his colleague had lost it, he should have stepped in and removed him from the situation, taking the lead in attempting to gain access through discussion/negotiation.

This whole situation could have been avoided and potentially solved through discussion had his partner acted.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 19, 2016)

These officers are given the best available training and are expected to be calm and in control,  in this instance he failed miserably. 

I still don't believe that his actions were correct, him and his oppo were adamant the driver was banned and not allowed to drive. 

The driver couldn't have done much wrong or he'd have been arrested wouldn't he?

They thought he was TJ, it turns out he wasn't yet that copper was adamant.


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## Fish (Sep 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			These officers are given the best available training and are expected to be calm and in control,  in this instance he failed miserably. 

I still don't believe that his actions were correct, him and his oppo were adamant the driver was banned and not allowed to drive. 

The driver couldn't have done much wrong or he'd have been arrested wouldn't he?

They thought he was TJ, it turns out he wasn't yet that copper was adamant.
		
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As I said, I think more will be disclosed about it, it's easy to judge on _only_ what we've seen and heard, which by the way looks to be very poor and OTT by all concerned, but that doesn't excuse the obstructive nature and giving of aliases that wound the copper up, I don't think it was just a case of mistaken identity from what I've been told, but if it turns out that way, then the copper needs to be sacked, lose his pension and go to anger management classes, as that is what would have to Joe public if the tables were turned.


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## sawtooth (Sep 19, 2016)

The copper actions were wholly unprofessional.

Immobilise the car first (block it in or whatever) and then talk to the suspect calmly. If that doesn't work surely then explain that he will need to access vehicle by force and why. Complete lack of communication.

Why didnt he stop and consult with his colleague? 

And finally there must be a better way to access the vehicle! A small , pocket sized automatic centre punch would have smashed that glass safely and in a blink of an eye.

Using a knife or whatever was amateurish to say the least.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 19, 2016)

Fish said:



			As I said, I think more will be disclosed about it, it's easy to judge on _only_ what we've seen and heard, which by the way looks to be very poor and OTT by all concerned, but that doesn't excuse the obstructive nature and giving of aliases that wound the copper up, I don't think it was just a case of mistaken identity from what I've been told, but if it turns out that way, then the copper needs to be sacked, lose his pension and go to anger management classes, as that is what would have to Joe public if the tables were turned.
		
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No copper should get wound up to that point, they're supposed to be highly trained and professional at all times.  

They thought he was TJ but it turns out he was his cousin, the other copper  can be heard saying " that's it Leon, I havent seen you in a long time".

OK this kid may have a bit of previous bit that still doesn't excuse the copper to behave the way he did.

Criminal damage and a short stay at Her Majestys pleasure should be suffice punishment for that copper.


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			No copper should get wound up to that point, they're supposed to be highly trained and professional at all times.  

They thought he was TJ but it turns out he was his cousin, the other copper  can be heard saying " that's it Leon, I havent seen you in a long time".

OK this kid may have a bit of previous bit that still doesn't excuse the copper to behave the way he did.

Criminal damage and a short stay at Her Majestys pleasure should be suffice punishment for that copper.
		
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Was it unprofessional - yes
Has he appeared to lose it - yes
Do you know what other stressors he'd gone through that week - no
Should we hang him before all of the facts have been established- bloody right.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

Fish said:



			There's actually a lot more to this than is being published and for what is being discussed on here.  The driver disclosed himself only as TJ (I think) a number of times and was consistently obstructive at first giving no less than 2 alias when asked for his personal details, when checking those details they were all not the driver at the wheel, he then gave a name (not his) that was actually disqualified!  Without being able to safely identify the driver and he refusing to get out of the vehicle on numerous times prior to the video starting, they acted under PACE I believe to arrest him, were those actions OTT, yes, but he refused to hand over the keys of the vehicle and gave numerous false identities, so, at what time do the police scale it up, and how do they get at the person to arrest him who has given false information and refuses to get out the vehicle and will only speak through the small opening of the window?

Yes the police officer lost the plot a little (a lot), but it was to a degree a stand off, I'm no huge fan of plod, and as I state, it looks like he lost control of himself, but when faced with someone giving consistent false information there comes a time to act!
		
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Well written Fish and yes the copper lost if big style which is totally unacceptable. Cannot believe the comments re the contents of the video though. It is a selective video in which it is cropped and downloaded to make the copper look the prat he was. however. Where is the bit of the video where the idiot in the car will not get out of the car when asked. If you have done nothing wrong get out of the car, end of story. This clown in the car helped to contribute to this story and has played the
 " I am a victim in this" card quite well.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Was it unprofessional - yes
Has he appeared to lose it - yes
Do you know what other stressors he'd gone through that week - no
Should we hang him before all of the facts have been established- bloody right.
		
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Hanging him is a bit extreme.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Well written Fish and yes the copper lost if big style which is totally unacceptable. Cannot believe the comments re the contents of the video though. It is a selective video in which it is cropped and downloaded to make the copper look the prat he was. however. Where is the bit of the video where the idiot in the car will not get out of the car when asked. If you have done nothing wrong get out of the car, end of story. This clown in the car helped to contribute to this story and has played the
 " I am a victim in this" card quite well.
		
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Whilst I agree he should've just got out of the car and played along with them, police officers deal with this type of reaction every day of the week and are well trained to deal with such circumstances. 

However, smashing his window screen to pieces should not have happened and cannot be defended.

The copper made himself look like a prat.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Well written Fish and yes the copper lost if big style which is totally unacceptable. Cannot believe the comments re the contents of the video though. It is a selective video in which it is cropped and downloaded to make the copper look the prat he was. however. Where is the bit of the video where the idiot in the car will not get out of the car when asked. If you have done nothing wrong get out of the car, end of story. This clown in the car helped to contribute to this story and has played the
 " I am a victim in this" card quite well.
		
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Why is he a clown? and he is a victim, a victim of mistaken identity.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is he a clown? and he is a victim, a victim of mistaken identity.
		
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Which could have easily been cleared up by getting out of the car and giving his real name to the police. The "victim" only became one because he decided to be an arse and the situation then escalated because of his actions.


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## Snelly (Sep 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			And some people want them all to be armed

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I would like them to be armed.  Absolutely. 

And in this specific instance, had the officer after the 7th time of asking, pulled out a 9mm Browning and said, I am asking you to get out of the car for the last time, I reckon the obstructive "victim" might well have done as he was told, and answered any further questions a bit sharpish too.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

Seems there's at least some fault/blame on both sides!

However, PC seriously lost it, which is totally unacceptable! Significant taxpayer funding has gone into training him/them to avoid such escalation of confrontation - and he has failed this 'test' miserably! His partner, imo, didn't have time to moderate but didn't seem inclined to either, so some issues there too! There'll also be a hefty bill for the taxpayer to repair the physical damage and 'loss of use' compensation.


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## sawtooth (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I would like them to be armed.  Absolutely. 

And in this specific instance, had the officer after the 7th time of asking, pulled out a 9mm Browning and said, I am asking you to get out of the car for the last time, I reckon the obstructive "victim" might well have done as he was told, and answered any further questions a bit sharpish too.
		
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You've been watching too many movies lol. &#128567;


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I would like them to be armed.  Absolutely. 

And in this specific instance, had the officer after the 7th time of asking, pulled out a 9mm Browning and said, I am asking you to get out of the car for the last time, I reckon the obstructive "victim" might well have done as he was told, and answered any further questions a bit sharpish too.
		
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Yep, that approach is working oh so well in the US right now. If a copper could lose it as badly as in that video, imagine him with a gun.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I would like them to be armed.  Absolutely. 

And in this specific instance, had the officer after the 7th time of asking, pulled out a 9mm Browning and said, I am asking you to get out of the car for the last time, I reckon the obstructive "victim" might well have done as he was told, and answered any further questions a bit sharpish too.
		
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As far as I know, neither the Police nor 'the public' want the Police to be armed as a matter of course! That would almost certainly simply lead to an increase in the level of armament by criminals/gangs, with dire consequences!

Certain members of the Police are able to be 'armed', but with significant additional checks/training. I don't believe this PC would qualify!

@Snelly What do you think the PC (in your hypothetical scenario) should do if the guy in the car refuses - because he is able to claim (quite legitimately imo) that he is frightened of the consequences of getting out of the car with the PC in that state?


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## Snelly (Sep 19, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Yep, that approach is working oh so well in the US right now. If a copper could lose it as badly as in that video, imagine him with a gun.
		
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The childlike leap you make to frame your argument is a large one.  What about all the other countries around the world that have armed police officers and are not shooting black people daily?  Nor are they smacking windscreens with batons to coax unco-operative wasters of police time out of their cars after asking them to get out multiple times. 

That aside, I am imagining the copper in the video with a gun and am of the view that he would not have had to ask so many times, receive lies back or get so wound up at the lack of co-operation, if he had pulled out a pistol and calmly asked them man to stop messing him around and get out of the car immediately.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I would like them to be armed.  Absolutely. 

And in this specific instance, had the officer after the 7th time of asking, pulled out a 9mm Browning and said, I am asking you to get out of the car for the last time, I reckon the obstructive "victim" might well have done as he was told, and answered any further questions a bit sharpish too.
		
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Rules of engagement would not allow them to pull a gun on someone unless they believe their life was in danger - it's A minefield and someone ignore a copper or refusing to get out of a car isn't life threatening


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## Snelly (Sep 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			@Snelly What do you think the PC (in your hypothetical scenario) should do if the guy in the car refuses - because he is able to claim (quite legitimately imo) that he is frightened of the consequences of getting out of the car with the PC in that state?
		
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See the answer above. He would not have been in that state because the guy would have got out of the car immediately.


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2016)

Shoot the bugger, obviously a known scrote with issues with authority, or build two sets of gallows and hang them both at the same time.

Lot of assumptions going on with very little evidence MyLud


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Which could have easily been cleared up by getting out of the car and giving his real name to the police. The "victim" only became one because he decided to be an arse and the situation then escalated because of his actions.
		
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Exactly which is why I said if you get out of the car when you have done nothing wrong. There is nothing to film.
 When I went to York on son in laws stag do it was 11.00 pm the streets were full of drunks. One decided he could take on six coppers. He was told half a dozen times to go home. Eventually he said make me and swung at a copper. The six coppers wrestled him to the floor. One of the lads who I was stood with is in the armed police. He said "watch this", within seconds Lord knows how many phones came out filming police brutality. But not one filmed the clown in the first place being a idiot threatening the police. That is why I take edited videos with a pinch of salt.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rules of engagement would not allow them to pull a gun on someone unless they believe their life was in danger - it's A minefield and someone ignore a copper or refusing to get out of a car isn't life threatening
		
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But staying in a car could be.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			See the answer above. He would not have been in that state because the guy would have got out of the car immediately.
		
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What answer above?

And you should consider LiverpoolPhil's reply (#43)!


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## vkurup (Sep 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats all that about.  If a Police office asks you to get out of your car then you absolutely should get out of it.  He should have considered himself lucky, in may countries he would have been shot.
		
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Did the police not issue a warning to motorist not to pull over if asked to do so by unmarked police cars?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-36902057
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/14645766.Warning_issued_after_van_thefts_by__fake_police__on_M25/

So do you stop or dont you stop?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			But staying in a car could be.
		
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How could he be endangering life by sitting in a car ?

Anytime a weapon is pulled or fire or cocked you need to be able to justify your reasons 
If you can't justify it then only one person is in trouble
Rules of Engagement are clear for people carrying weapons.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Totally agree with Snelly that our Officers should be armed.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 19, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Did the police not issue a warning to motorist not to pull over if asked to do so by unmarked police cars?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-36902057
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/14645766.Warning_issued_after_van_thefts_by__fake_police__on_M25/

So do you stop or dont you stop?
		
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Totally different situation. This was a marked police car with blue lights flashing and two uniformed policemen. The driver had already stopped and then refused to do as instructed.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Did the police not issue a warning to motorist not to pull over if asked to do so by unmarked police cars?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-36902057
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/14645766.Warning_issued_after_van_thefts_by__fake_police__on_M25/

So do you stop or dont you stop?
		
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They are (were) being asked to 'call 999' to check if it was a real police car. So they are actually being encouraged to use their phone while driving! Bit of a problem if the reason they were being pulled over was.... for using their mobile while driving!


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## Fish (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree with Snelly that our Officers should be armed.
		
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More _are_ armed than you think!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Fish said:



			More _are_ armed than you think!
		
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I mean all though mate, every last one of them.


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I mean all though mate, every last one of them.
		
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82% of British bobbies don't want to be armed. According to the federation, they believe they have the tools to do the job without being armed.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			82% of British bobbies don't want to be armed. According to the federation, they believe they have the tools to do the job without being armed.
		
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but there are a lot that have applied and passed the selection process to join firearms, so much so there is one hell of a backlog to train them. Incidentally the increase in arming the police force is to combat the terrorist threat.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How could he be endangering life by sitting in a car ?

Anytime a weapon is pulled or fire or cocked you need to be able to justify your reasons 
If you can't justify it then only one person is in trouble
Rules of Engagement are clear for people carrying weapons.
		
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we are discussing a car, but this could of been any vehicle and recent events on the continent where a vehicle was used to murder innocent victims is the point I am trying to make.
99.9% of individuals would of got out of the car. Especially if innocent. If I was that copper and asked him repeatedly to get out of the vehicle and he refused, I would be asking myself " why is he not getting out". His actions as stated by me were ott.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			we are discussing a car, but this could of been any vehicle and recent events on the continent where a vehicle was used to murder innocent victims is the point I am trying to make.
99.9% of individuals would of got out of the car. Especially if innocent. If I was that copper and asked him repeatedly to get out of the vehicle and he refused, I would be asking myself " why is he not getting out". His actions as stated by me were ott.
		
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Again none of it is justification to use firearms or to even draw one. Always use minimum force required - that's a clear directive within rules of engagement and you will never be able to use "he wouldn't get out of his car " as just cause to draw your weapon. He is causing no harm to life yours or any others


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again none of it is justification to use firearms or to even draw one. Always use minimum force required - that's a clear directive within rules of engagement and you will never be able to use "he wouldn't get out of his car " as just cause to draw your weapon. He is causing no harm to life yours or any others
		
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I have never even suggested that there was any justification to use any kind of force, be it chop at the windscreen or use a gun.


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## Midnight (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			but there are a lot that have applied and passed the selection process to join firearms, so much so there is one hell of a backlog to train them. Incidentally the increase in arming the police force is to combat the terrorist threat.
		
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Unfortunately there are also a lot who have applied and failed the selection process. Should these officers be armed ? (Just playing devil's advocate,) I have my own views on it all.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			82% of British bobbies don't want to be armed. According to the federation, they believe they have the tools to do the job without being armed.
		
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It's a culture thing to me, 20-30 years ago the public were against armed police in airports or on show in public, now it's accepted. A fully armed police force would become accepted over time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It's a culture thing to me, 20-30 years ago the public were against armed police in airports or on show in public, now it's accepted. A fully armed police force would become accepted over time.
		
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Why do we need a "fully armed" police force ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			we are discussing a car, but this could of been any vehicle and recent events on the continent where a vehicle was used to murder innocent victims is the point I am trying to make.
99.9% of individuals would of got out of the car. Especially if innocent. If I was that copper and asked him repeatedly to get out of the vehicle and he refused, I would be asking myself " why is he not getting out". His actions as stated by me were ott.
		
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So any innocent person should simply get out of the car, how about your home or anything else you possess?
Smash your door down, frighten you? 
"Sorry Tashyboy, wrong address" No problem PC, honest mistake,

Going on the video released, once he gets out the car, the other one recognises him and tells him to get back in the car, really won't be surprised if the PC doing the damage is an inexperienced Cop, because I don't believe 99.9% of other Cops would behave like that. That video will end up being used in Police trg on how not to gain entry to a car.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do we need a "fully armed" police force ?
		
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Because imo it leads to a safer society and is a very effective visible deterrent.


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## Snelly (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do we need a "fully armed" police force ?
		
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Are you being deliberately thick again Phil?  Why do you think?   To shoot baddies, obviously. 

For research purposes, you should watch Dirty Harry and Magnum Force.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Are you being deliberately thick again Phil?  Why do you think?   To shoot baddies, obviously. 

For research purposes, you should watch Dirty Harry and Magnum Force.
		
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"To shoot baddies"

Maybe you have researched too many Dirty Harry films 

Since when has the UK become that dangerous that we now need every police officer to be armed ?! Seriously how often in the past year has their been cause for police to be armed ? 

And as for leading to a safer society ? Seriously in what way ? Bring guns to the policemen and straight away you up the anti to the criminals. 

Unless I have missed something in this country but not once have I ever seen or heard of any incident in the U.K. that has come anywhere near requiring a "fully armed police force"


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## Snelly (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Unless I have missed something
		
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Surely not? 


I bet Chuck Norris thinks our rozzers should be tooled up, and he is double hard.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			"To shoot baddies"

Maybe you have researched too many Dirty Harry films 

Since when has the UK become that dangerous that we now need every police officer to be armed ?! Seriously how often in the past year has their been cause for police to be armed ? 

And as for leading to a safer society ? Seriously in what way ? Bring guns to the policemen and straight away you up the anti to the criminals. 

Unless I have missed something in this country but not once have I ever seen or heard of any incident in the U.K. that has come anywhere near requiring a "fully armed police force"
		
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The last Gov figures for the year 14-15, the Armed Police responded to just under 15,000 Firearm incidents.
So not much then!


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			... Why do you think?   To shoot *baddies*, obviously...
		
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I think you need to define 'baddies'!

Those that do 90+ on the motorway?

Or only when they decline to get out of the car in response to an overly-aggressive PC?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Surely not? 


I bet Chuck Norris thinks our rozzers should be tooled up, and he is double hard.
		
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Whatever you do, don't google Chuck Norris.


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## Midnight (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			The last Gov figures for the year 14-15, the Armed Police responded to just under 15,000 Firearm incidents.
So not much then!
		
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Mate, do you know if they are on about firearm deployments or does it state that these are jobs where a firearm has been seen?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			The last Gov figures for the year 14-15, the Armed Police responded to just under 15,000 Firearm incidents.
So not much then!
		
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So that's a lot of incidents resolved without the need of firearms from the police or the use of the armed division ? 

Seems they have the balance right then


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

Midnight said:



			Unfortunately there are also a lot who have applied and failed the selection process. Should these officers be armed ? (Just playing devil's advocate,) I have my own views on it all.
		
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Definately not midnight, from what I have heard the selection process is tough. If you have done your homework before you go through the selection process. You know what is required. If you cannot meet that criteria/level of standard required then no they should not be armed.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			The last Gov figures for the year 14-15, the Armed Police responded to just under 15,000 Firearm incidents.
So not much then!
		
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If it's the stats I'm looking at, you have a small but vital error...

There were just under 15000 police firearm operations . That doesn't mean there were that many firearm incidents! Quite a different statistic altogether!

In fact, of those 15k incidents, only 2 involved the discharge of firearms by the Police!

So definitely not much!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cs-england-and-wales-april-2014-to-march-2015

Oh and there were 5647 Police Firearm Officers, down from 5875 the previous year!

And the graph in the above link shows an excellent trend of reducing incidents!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			So any innocent person should simply get out of the car, how about your home or anything else you possess?
Smash your door down, frighten you? 
"Sorry Tashyboy, wrong address" No problem PC, honest mistake,

Going on the video released, once he gets out the car, the other one recognises him and tells him to get back in the car, really won't be surprised if the PC doing the damage is an inexperienced Cop, because I don't believe 99.9% of other Cops would behave like that. That video will end up being used in Police trg on how not to gain entry to a car.
		
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As daft as it may seem, me and Missis T were once pulled over by the police coming back from the gym. ( long time ago). Anyway the rozzer asked me to wind down the window. I did. That's it, end of story. Why would you not?


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## Midnight (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Definately not midnight, from what I have heard the selection process is tough. If you have done your homework before you go through the selection process. You know what is required. If you cannot meet that criteria/level of standard required then no they should not be armed.
		
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The actual course is hard mate and not everyone gets through for a variety of reasons. However if people want the Police force in general armed how would this be decided and what would you do with the ones who were deemed not fit to carry?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			If it's the stats I'm looking at, you have a small but vital error...

There were just under 15000 police firearm operations . That doesn't mean there were that many firearm incidents! Quite a different statistic altogether!

In fact, of those 15k incidents, only 2 involved the discharge of firearms by the Police!

So definitely not much!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cs-england-and-wales-april-2014-to-march-2015

Oh and there were 5647 Police Firearm Officers, down from 5875 the previous year!

And the graph in the above link shows an excellent trend of reducing incidents!
		
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The report says 6, up 2 from the previous year, my understanding of a firearms operation means the Police decided they needed firearms on scene, I would class the operation/incident as the same thing.
Overall Police numbers have been cut so understandible all areas suffered.
Still not good that we are looking at an average of 41 Firearms operations per day.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Midnight said:



			The actual course is hard mate and not everyone gets through for a variety of reasons. However if people want the Police force in general armed how would this be decided and what would you do with the ones who were deemed not fit to carry?
		
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You couldn't do it overnight it would have to be a gradual introduction, not fit to carry, desk job or redundancy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			You couldn't do it overnight it would have to be a gradual introduction, not fit to carry, desk job or redundancy.
		
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So what about the thousands of local village policemen or in towns where they have no incidents requiring firearms ? Get them all tooled up as well 

There is no need for a fully armed police force -not seen one justification for it. Why on earth do you need to have every single policeman carrying a gun when there is no need or call for it. That would actually scare more people than make them safe.

Areas where there is a need have those sections on standby ready to deploy when needed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			As daft as it may seem, me and Missis T were once pulled over by the police coming back from the gym. ( long time ago). Anyway the rozzer asked me to wind down the window. I did. That's it, end of story. Why would you not?
		
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And if you hadn't you'd accept a response like the video?
Other posters have said we've no idea what pressure that PC faced or was under, maybe the guy in the car had had a bad experience with the police and was frightened, hopefully the truth will come out, one thing for sure, they need sharper knives&#128515;


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## NorfolkShaun (Sep 19, 2016)

While the response from the police officer appears to be OTT it does appear the guy was making an effort to push him as far as he could.

Further to this is the guy videoing this with a mobile phone? Last time i heard it was an offence to use a mobile phone being the wheel of a car. I know someone who got three points stuck in traffic with the ignition off.....


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			The report says 6, up 2 from the previous year, my understanding of a firearms operation means the Police decided they needed firearms on scene, I would class the operation/incident as the same thing.
Overall Police numbers have been cut so understandible all areas suffered.
Still not good that we are looking at an average of 41 Firearms operations per day.
		
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Sorry. I forgot to modify that figure - I originally grabbed the previous years report!  Still a tiny number (thankfully)! And it was 'up from 2' btw!

I'd strongly suggest that 'armed incident' was one where a 'perp' was in possession of a firearm - not necessarily the Police!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what about the thousands of local village policemen or in towns where they have no incidents requiring firearms ? Get them all tooled up as well 

There is no need for a fully armed police force -not seen one justification for it. Why on earth do you need to have every single policeman carrying a gun when there is no need or call for it. That would actually scare more people than make them safe.

Areas where there is a need have those sections on standby ready to deploy when needed.
		
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Really did say in my opinion and it's one that won't change, 15,000 Operations and weapons discharged 6 times, excellent ratio, but 41 a day is bad imo.
I wonder if Hungerford or Cumbria would of had such a large loss of life if those local coppers on scene had been armed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry. I forgot to modify that figure - I originally grabbed the previous years report!  Still a tiny number (thankfully)! And it was 'up from 2' btw!

I'd strongly suggest that 'armed incident' was one where a 'perp' was in possession of a firearm - not necessarily the Police!
		
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Incident or operation, they would only carry out an armed response were they deemed it neccessary and believed or had proof the "perp" was armed. Pretty sure the only armed people on the Tube incident when the brazilian was shot was the police.


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2016)

I'm not in favour but as we never normally see a copper it wouldn't help anyway. 

Not sure we're the idea that arming the boys in blue would increase the amount of firearms the baddies would be carrying though. Doesn't appear to be an issue in Germany were all cops are armed. It's just an argument used by the anti gun brigade with no real facts to back it up.


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Really did say in my opinion and it's one that won't change, 15,000 Operations and weapons discharged 6 times, excellent ratio, but 41 a day is bad imo.
I wonder if Hungerford or Cumbria would of had such a large loss of life if those local coppers on scene had been armed.
		
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That's speculation though. You could quite easily spin it on its head and say that if the Police were fully armed, more criminals would be armed and there would be more incidents of criminals using them.

Its also interesting to read what the stats are for European countries where the Police are armed. The U.K. has less incidents than the countries where Police are armed.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			...I wonder if Hungerford or Cumbria would of had such a large loss of life if those local coppers on scene had been armed.
		
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Unfortunately, Yes - imo! And Dunblane and others would still have happened too!

By the time (armed) Police get involved, it's way past the point where such events can be prevented - merely limited at best!

Look at how many such incidents continue to happen on the US - admittedly a larger country.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, Yes - imo! And Dunblane and others would still have happened too!

By the time (armed) Police get involved, it's way past the point where such events can be prevented - merely limited at best!

Look at how many such incidents continue to happen on the US - admittedly a larger country.
		
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Or not as in both instances un-armed cops were involved in the early stages.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			That's speculation though. You could quite easily spin it on its head and say that if the Police were fully armed, more criminals would be armed and there would be more incidents of criminals using them.

Its also interesting to read what the stats are for European countries where the Police are armed. The U.K. has less incidents than the countries where Police are armed.
		
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It's all speculation though, living in Germany for a long time and visiting Countries were police are armed I always felt safer and they get way more respect, except the US (they buck every trend) with the right to bear arms.


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Its also interesting to read what the stats are for European countries where the Police are armed. The U.K. has less incidents than the countries where Police are armed.
		
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Do share


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 19, 2016)

Let's say all police officers were to carry guns.
When would it be appropriate for the officer to actually use the gun?


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			Let's say all police officers were to carry guns.
When would it be appropriate for the officer to actually use the gun?
		
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Theres the rub, it would be a split second judgement and they have to take into account the forces rules of engagement. Not easy and unfortunately at times will result in the wrong call being made.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			Let's say all police officers were to carry guns.
When would it be appropriate for the officer to actually use the gun?
		
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They have a very tight and strict guidelines they must follow and are trained to an extremely high standard.


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## Midnight (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			The report says 6, up 2 from the previous year, my understanding of a firearms operation means the Police decided they needed firearms on scene, I would class the operation/incident as the same thing.
Overall Police numbers have been cut so understandible all areas suffered.
Still not good that we are looking at an average of 41 Firearms operations per day.
		
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I completely agree that 41 ops a day is not good , however some firearm deployments can be in response to people with machetes, axe and various other weapons. The reason for this is a less lethal option can be used\thought about.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Do share
		
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Compare UK to France!

UK similar to Germany

Swaziland, Guatemala, Salvador and Colombia and Jamaica are definitely places to be avoided!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2016)

Midnight said:



			I completely agree that 41 ops a day is not good , however some firearm deployments can be in response to people with machetes, axe and various other weapons. The reason for this is a less lethal option can be used\thought about.
		
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It's the officers responding my loyalty ls with, the pressure and stress responding to these incidents must be a nightmare for some.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 19, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			Let's say all police officers were to carry guns.
When would it be appropriate for the officer to actually use the gun?
		
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I'd say anything from shoplifting, begging and fare dodging upwards. Several benefits to this approach. It would act as a deterrent. It would reduce the prison population. And as we keep getting told that the country is full we would also reduce the total population of the country as well.


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## Midnight (Sep 19, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It's the officers responding my loyalty ls with, the pressure and stress responding to these incidents must be a nightmare for some.
		
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Again mate, you are right, the officers normally have to try and contain the situation until specialist units I.e firearms,dogs,force support units are deployed to it.
In regards to the TNG implications of all Police being armed, it would be a nightmare with the amount of officers who are actually on the street, to be able to get them through the TNG and not compromise the cover that is out there.

For your info mate, I am in the camp of being armed, but I can also see and accept the arguments for it not happening at the moment.


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## Fish (Sep 19, 2016)

Midnight said:



			Again mate, you are right, the officers normally have to try and contain the situation until specialist units I.e firearms,dogs,force support units are deployed to it.
In regards to the TNG implications of all Police being armed, it would be a nightmare with the amount of officers who are actually on the street, to be able to get them through the TNG and not compromise the cover that is out there.

For your info mate, I am in the camp of being armed, but I can also see and accept the arguments for it not happening at the moment.
		
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Your armed enough with a club in your hand :rofl:


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, Yes - imo! And Dunblane and others would still have happened too!

By the time (armed) Police get involved, it's way past the point where such events can be prevented - merely limited at best!
		
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Yes these incidents would still happen but if the first officer on the scene at Dunblane or Hungerford or any other such incident had been armed and had shot the perpetrator dead then the scale should/would/could have been smaller than waiting for an armed officer to respond.


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## Midnight (Sep 19, 2016)

Fish said:



			Your armed enough with a club in your hand :rofl:
		
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You know me to well mate&#128514;&#128514;


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## chrisd (Sep 19, 2016)

Midnight said:



			You know me to well mate&#128514;&#128514;
		
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You could snore someone into submission!


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## Midnight (Sep 19, 2016)

chrisd said:



			You could snore someone into submission!
		
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That's my backup mate&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## patricks148 (Sep 20, 2016)

as someone else said if you are a law abiding citizen and a police officer asks you to get out of your car, get out!

too many Cocky Oiks about who think they are above the law and authority.
.


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## One Planer (Sep 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			as someone else said if you are a law abiding citizen and a police officer asks you to get out of your car, get out!

*too many Cocky Oiks about who think they are above the law and authority.
.*

Click to expand...

Is that aimed at the officer destroying a citizens personal property :smirk:


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Is that aimed at the officer destroying a citizens personal property :smirk:
		
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I think we all know that it's aimed at the cocky oik driving the car who refused to get out of the car despite repeated requests from a police officer. If you condone that sort of behaviour then you are part of the problem of lack of respect for authority in this country. IMO of course.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Is that aimed at the officer destroying an innocent, wrongly identified citizens personal property :smirk:
		
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Fixed that for you.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			as someone else said if you are a law abiding citizen and a police officer asks you to get out of your car, get out!

too many Cocky Oiks about who think they are above the law and authority.
.
		
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Unfortunately in certain parts of the country these are the types of people they deal with on a daily basis, that's why the copper should never had let it get yo that situation. He should know better.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			as someone else said if you are a law abiding citizen and a police officer asks you to get out of your car, get out!

too many Cocky Oiks about who think they are above the law and authority.
.
		
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I don't agree that all police should carry guns,but you are spot on here.


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## patricks148 (Sep 20, 2016)

One Planer said:



			Is that aimed at the officer destroying a citizens personal property :smirk:
		
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er.... no.

it could all have been avoided if the guy got out the car and had been identified, as requested.

i can't imagine what its like dealing with these yobs on a daily basis, no wonder the copper went bonkers, i would prob do the same


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## One Planer (Sep 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			er.... no.

it could all have been avoided if the guy got out the car and had been identified, as requested.

i can't imagine what its like dealing with these yobs on a daily basis, no wonder the copper went bonkers, i would prob do the same
		
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Silly  question but from what I could see the windows weren't tinted. 

Why could the not identify him purely by looking into the car?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			er.... no.

it could all have been avoided if the guy got out the car and had been identified, as requested.

i can't imagine what its like dealing with these yobs on a daily basis, no wonder the copper went bonkers, i would prob do the same
		
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What evidence do you have to call him a yob? 
We don't need Coppers going bonkers when they are in the wrong.
I for one do not believe for one minute that's how he was trained to deal with that situation,
Maybe it's best to let the Police inquiry finish before we all jump to conclusions.


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## patricks148 (Sep 20, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			What evidence do you have to call him a yob? 
We don't need Coppers going bonkers when they are in the wrong.
I for one do not believe for one minute that's how he was trained to deal with that situation,
Maybe it's best to let the Police inquiry finish before we all jump to conclusions.
		
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i'm not jumping to any conclusions, the guy was asked to get out of the car he refused, why would you refuse if you had done nothing wrong?????

i had a similar situation heading to Woodhall Spa a couple of years ago... i got out the car, they could see i was not the person they thought i was, apologized and shot off. if the guy had done this we would not be discussing this TBH.

plus i didn;t call him a yob, i said dealing with yobs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			i'm not jumping to any conclusions, the guy was asked to get out of the car he refused, why would you refuse if you had done nothing wrong?????

i had a similar situation heading to Woodhall Spa a couple of years ago... i got out the car, they could see i was not the person they thought i was, apologized and shot off. if the guy had done this we would not be discussing this TBH.

plus i didn;t call him a yob, i said dealing with yobs.
		
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But we don't know what led up to this, the other Copper recognised him and addressed him with his first name and told him to get back in the car.
Plus, read your posts you said "I can't imagine what it's like dealing with THESE yobs on a daily basis"
Have a guess who going to pick up the repair bill for the damage to the car? me and you and every other tax payer.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 20, 2016)

All Coppers with guns would be criminal.

Imagine the amount of mistaken identity deaths there'd be?

They'd get away with it as they always do.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2016)

Here's how the situation should have unfolded.........

Policeman - "Excuse me sir, can you step out of the car please"
Driver (getting out of car) - "Yes officer, what seems to be the problem?"
Policeman - "Are you Fred Smith?"
Driver (producing ID) - "No, I'm David Jones"
Policeman - "Ok, thank you sir, you can be on your way".

Surely it's not that difficult to understand. 

Or the alternative which is to behave like a complete dick and then complain all over social media when the policeman overreacts to your knobbish behaviour.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Here's how the situation should have unfolded.........

Policeman - "Excuse me sir, can you step out of the car please"
Driver (getting out of car) - "Yes officer, what seems to be the problem?"
Policeman - "Are you Fred Smith?"
Driver (producing ID) - "No, I'm David Jones"
Policeman - "Ok, thank you sir, you can be on your way".

Surely it's not that difficult to understand. 

Or the alternative which is to behave like a complete dick and then complain all over social media when the policeman overreacts to your knobbish behaviour.
		
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Ha Ha, so the copper overreacts and it's the innocent mans fault,
Maybe he was scared by the manner the copper approached him, none of us know if he was politely requested to get out of his car or if the Copper ran at him to drag him out as if he'd caught a murderer.
How many times have we seen traffic cops ask drivers for id while the driver is sat in the car.
If it was such a bad situation why does the other copper stand and watch?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Ha Ha, so the copper overreacts and it's the* innocent *mans fault,
Maybe he was scared by the manner the copper approached him, *none of us know* if he was politely requested to get out of his car or if the Copper ran at him to drag him out as if he'd caught a murderer.
How many times have we seen traffic cops ask drivers for id while the driver is sat in the car.
If it was such a bad situation why does the other copper stand and watch?
		
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Nope, none of us knows, yet you still feel comfortable referring to the guy in the cart as "innocent". I haven't suggested that the policeman didn't overreact to the situation. Do you really think that the situation reached that point simply due to a policeman losing the plot or is it possible that the behaviour of the driver contributed to it in any way?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope, none of us knows, yet you still feel comfortable referring to the guy in the cart as "innocent". I haven't suggested that the policeman didn't overreact to the situation. Do you really think that the situation reached that point simply due to a policeman losing the plot or is it possible that the behaviour of the driver contributed to it in any way?
		
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The police statement said it was mistaken identity and no arrests were made, I take that as him being completely innocent in this case.
Coppers are under enourmous pressure, highly trained and one incident like this can do untold damage to the thousands of hardworking coppers.
Honestly, I have no idea if the drivers behaviour contributed or not.
I'm gobsmacked the copper is in such a state he gets a knife out to cut the windscreen. He'd lost the plot and if the situation was so volatile, why isn't the other copper joining in?


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## Old Skier (Sep 20, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe it's best to let the Police inquiry finish before we all jump to conclusions.
		
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Come on, we are only on page 12.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 21, 2016)

What I really enjoy is how many young black males we have on here that can completely relate to how the innocent man felt in this situation.

Or could it be that everyone saying "just get out" has no idea what it's like. And that includes me. But I do know that black people are 28 times more likely to be stopped and searched. (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/12/police-stop-and-search-black-people), albeit the study is from 2012. So as a white middle class male, I'm probably not qualified to comment on how the man should have felt, or what he should have done.

What I cam absolutely 100% clear on, is that the police officer should in no way have acted like that. Scratching a window with a pen knife? Ludicrous. If the young man was such a threat, why was the other officer not getting involved?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 21, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What I really enjoy is how many young black males we have on here that can completely relate to how the innocent man felt in this situation.

Or could it be that everyone saying "just get out" has no idea what it's like. And that includes me. But I do know that black people are 28 times more likely to be stopped and searched. (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/12/police-stop-and-search-black-people), albeit the study is from 2012. So as a white middle class male, I'm probably not qualified to comment on how the man should have felt, or what he should have done.

What I cam absolutely 100% clear on, is that the police officer should in no way have acted like that. Scratching a window with a pen knife? Ludicrous. If the young man was such a threat, why was the other officer not getting involved?
		
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If someone has been asked 28 times to get out of his car, he has had plenty of practice. I am a middle aged possibly middle class white male and I have been pulled up by the old bill and never felt like getting me phone out ( even though he had a Man Utd pin badge on his tie).
Yup you won't get any arguments from me about how blacks are victimised, that is fact and not just from the police. But the fact remains that per head there are more blacks in prison than whites. So who do the police get grief off the most? Well listening to my daughter and son in law who are in the plod force, Afro carribeans and Eastern Europeans are doin a good job in adding to those figures in the Sheffield area. So much so, one of me daughters Bessie mates in the force committed suicide within the last couple of days, due to stresses of the job and personal life.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 21, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			If someone has been asked 28 times to get out of his car, he has had plenty of practice. I am a middle aged possibly middle class white male and I have been pulled up by the old bill and never felt like getting me phone out ( even though he had a Man Utd pin badge on his tie).
Yup you won't get any arguments from me about how blacks are victimised, that is fact and not just from the police. But the fact remains that per head there are more blacks in prison than whites. So who do the police get grief off the most? Well listening to my daughter and son in law who are in the plod force, Afro carribeans and Eastern Europeans are doin a good job in adding to those figures in the Sheffield area. So much so, one of me daughters Bessie mates in the force committed suicide within the last couple of days, due to stresses of the job and personal life.
		
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At the risk of sounding rude, I'm genuinely unsure as to what your point was in that reply. My point is that noone hear appears to be in a place to comment. With your second sentence, you prove exactly that. It may have been worth stopping there?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 21, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			At the risk of sounding rude, I'm genuinely unsure as to what your point was in that reply. My point is that noone hear appears to be in a place to comment. With your second sentence, you prove exactly that. It may have been worth stopping there?
		
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So are you suggesting that unless you are personally involved in any type of issue then you have no right to hold a valid opinion?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 21, 2016)

As I see it CheltenhamHacker, of the two people involved in this incident, neither of them come out of it with anything they would want to be proud of. If they both sat back and thought about there actions, they could and should of done things differently, irrespective of the golfing fraternity's thoughts.&#128077;


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So are you suggesting that unless you are personally involved in any type of issue then you have no right to hold a valid opinion?
		
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Obviously you have a right to hold an opinion. 

Whether or not it is a valid opinion is an entirely different matter.

I may hold an opinion on the right way to make a sponge cake but, due to my lack of knowledge and relevant experience, it is unlikely that it has any validity.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 21, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Obviously you have a right to hold an opinion. 

Whether or not it is a valid opinion is an entirely different matter.

I may hold an opinion on the right way to make a sponge cake but, due to my lack of knowledge and relevant experience, it is unlikely that it has any validity.
		
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You what, you've never made a sponge cake, it's 2016 man.&#127856;&#127874;


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 21, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			You what, you've never made a sponge cake, it's 2016 man.&#62320;&#62338;
		
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I cook, I do not bake nor do I have any intention of ever doing so.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 21, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I cook, I do not bake nor do I have any intention of ever doing so.
		
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Then you will never have the pleasure of licking out the bowl. &#128513;


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 21, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Then you will never have the pleasure of licking out the bowl. &#62977;
		
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Not exactly a hardship!

I don't have a sweet tooth.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 21, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Then you will never have the pleasure of licking out the bowl. &#128513;
		
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One of life's great pleasures &#128588;


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Obviously you have a right to hold an opinion. 

Whether or not it is a valid opinion is an entirely different matter.

I may hold an opinion on the right way to make a sponge cake but, due to my lack of knowledge and relevant experience, it is unlikely that it has any validity.
		
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I see no reason to hold an opinion unless I feel it's valid.

The point in question was where the poster suggested that if you were not in the same situation then you have no right to comment.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I see no reason to hold an opinion unless I feel it's valid.

The point in question was where the poster suggested that if you were not in the same situation then you have no right to comment.
		
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And I confirmed my belief in your right to hold an opinion.

Where I sympathise with the point being made by CheltenhamHacker is on the validity of that opinion. We can all have opinions, but some are better informed and, thus, more valid than others.


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			...We can all have opinions, but some are *better informed and, thus, more valid than others*.
		
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H'mm! Informed generally? Or about details of the specific incident? It's only if the latter case where the opinion is more likely to reflect the facts - but is still only an opinion until all relevant facts are known/publicised!

And note my sig - a quote from one of your earlier posts - which I totally agree with!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! Informed generally? Or about details of the specific incident? It's only if the latter case where the opinion is more likely to reflect the facts - but is still only an opinion until all relevant facts are known/publicised!

And note my sig - a quote from one of your earlier posts - which I totally agree with!
		
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I think we agree on this.

I have never been a policeman and neither am I a young black male in an urban environment. Thus my opinion, and those of others like me, on this issue is less valid than that of someone with either relevant experience or background.

As for the details of the specific incident there are only three people who are privy to those.


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## Midnight (Sep 22, 2016)

I have to be honest, but I don't see what being black has to do with this.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 22, 2016)

Midnight said:



			I have to be honest, but I don't see what being black has to do with this.
		
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Is it not disingenuous to dismiss the possibility that some sections of the black community might view the police in a less than favourable light?

Again, I cannot say with any certainty but news reports do suggest that there may be a negative attitude towards the police within certain sections of society. This attitude may or may not have any basis in fact but could still exist and influence people's actions.


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Is it not disingenuous to dismiss the possibility that some sections of the black community might view the police in a less than favourable light?

Again, I cannot say with any certainty but news reports do suggest that there may be a negative attitude towards the police within certain sections of society. This attitude may or may not have any basis in fact but could still exist and influence people's actions.
		
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Stop & Search statistics would still seem to imply that there are very likely pretty sound reasons for that negative attitude! And that's not just in the likes of London, Manchester etc, where gangs are apparently part of the 'culture'!


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## Midnight (Sep 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Is it not disingenuous to dismiss the possibility that some sections of the black community might view the police in a less than favourable light?

Again, I cannot say with any certainty but news reports do suggest that there may be a negative attitude towards the police within certain sections of society. This attitude may or may not have any basis in fact but could still exist and influence people's actions.
		
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I get that mate and without doubt there are certain sections within all communities that have a negative view of the Police and this will influence how they react/interact when being stopped. This may be down to a bad experience, being raised like that or other factors. One of my mates absolutely detests the Police, this is all down to a bad experience he had with them ,(he is a white bloke).

I still don't believe that colour/religion/,sex for example should stop someone from having and stating their views,/opinions on this issue.


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## chrisd (Sep 22, 2016)

Midnight said:



			I get that mate and without doubt there are certain sections within all communities that have a negative view of the Police and this will influence how they react/interact when being stopped. This may be down to a bad experience, being raised like that or other factors. One of my mates absolutely detests the Police, this is all down to a bad experience he had with them ,(he is a white bloke).

I still don't believe that colour/religion/,sex for example should stop someone from having and stating their views,/opinions on this issue.
		
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I only have issues with the police when I sleep with them :smirk:


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 22, 2016)

Midnight said:



			I get that mate and without doubt there are certain sections within all communities that have a negative view of the Police and this will influence how they react/interact when being stopped. This may be down to a bad experience, being raised like that or other factors. One of my mates absolutely detests the Police, this is all down to a bad experience he had with them ,(he is a white bloke).

I still don't believe that colour/religion/,sex for example should stop someone from having and stating their views,/opinions on this issue.
		
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Nowhere have I suggested that anybody, regardless of colour, creed, gender or sexuality is not entitled to hold or express an opinion.

I have merely suggested that those in possession of the facts or with relevant experience or background are likely to have a more valid opinion.


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## Midnight (Sep 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Nowhere have I suggested that anybody, regardless of colour, creed, gender or sexuality is not entitled to hold or express an opinion.

I have merely suggested that those in possession of the facts or with relevant experience or background are likely to have a more valid opinion.
		
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Mate, I never said you had stated that, if it came across like that, then I apologise.

I do agree that those in possession of the facts on this matter are best placed to  comment on this incident.
However if my experience of the Police is a negative one, then I would portray that in my own opinions of the Police, and vice a versa I would expect someone who has had positive experiences with the Police to portray that.

I personally find it very interesting to read peoples views whether it is negative or positive. I also like reading your posts.I don't normally comment on this threads but have found this one very interesting.


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## Midnight (Sep 22, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I only have issues with the police when I sleep with them :smirk:
		
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&#128514;&#128514;&#128521;


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 22, 2016)

Midnight said:



			Mate, I never said you had stated that, if it came across like that, then I apologise.

I do agree that those in possession of the facts on this matter are best placed to  comment on this incident.
However if my experience of the Police is a negative one, then I would portray that in my own opinions of the Police, and vice a versa I would expect someone who has had positive experiences with the Police to portray that.

I personally find it very interesting to read peoples views whether it is negative or positive. I also like reading your posts.I don't normally comment on this threads but have found this one very interesting.
		
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No worries and no need to apologise.

My missus moans that I try to hard to see all sides of a debate, except when the debate is with her!


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## Fish (Sep 22, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I only have issues with the police when I sleep with them :smirk:
		
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I've had a few sleepovers with them &#128540;


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## Midnight (Sep 22, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			No worries and no need to apologise.

My missus moans that I try to hard to see all sides of a debate, except when the debate is with her!
		
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I know that feeling mate &#128513;&#128513;


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