# Auschwitz.



## Golfmmad (Jan 27, 2015)

A sombre and very emotive subject, but one that should be discussed.

It's quite unbelievable that such an atrocity could even be thought of, let alone carried out. As we know it's the 70th anniversary and much has or is being shown on TV. One thing that stood out for me yesterday was the 91 year old lady survivor visiting some young students. She was gently talking to them and each and every one of the 15-20 were hanging on to her every word with a look of total respect, and I'm sure, shocked at what they were hearing.

I remember seeing the film Schindlers List some years ago, and at the time thinking, why have I just sat through such a harrowing film, and feeling annoyed. Until of course, I thought about it some more and realised, I should know and see some of that awful atrocity, to help understand what over 6 million people, men women and children, had to endure during such a dreadful part of History.

We, and our children, and their children, will remember them.


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## Tongo (Jan 27, 2015)

I visited Sachsenhausen as a 15 year old on a school trip to Berlin. Was one of the most chilling, harrowing experiences of my life and i can still remember parts of the trip vividly today 20 years later.


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## chellie (Jan 27, 2015)

We've visited twice now. First time on our own and then second time we took our daughters. These are from our first visit.  Beggars belief how anyone survived.





Also one of the monument at Plaschau


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2015)

Been to both Belsen and Dachau, honestly believe all school children from all nationalities should be took to visit one as part of there education.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 27, 2015)

Went there as part of an away trip with England. There were some right wrong un's on the trip but even the hardest thug had tears in their eyes. Moving doesn't even begin to do the place and the atmosphere justice


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## pbrown7582 (Jan 27, 2015)

I have been to auschwitz, the birds don't sing over the place and it really does take some believing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2015)

Went there during a staff ride as part of the 60th anniversary - you can feel the awful things that went on there.


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## matt71 (Jan 27, 2015)

Never been there but seen the topograph of horror in Berlin ! I got that emotional had to leave and let the wife go round on her own !

very sad


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## JustOne (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm fed up with the war stuff, they should bulldoze the place and just put up a memorial and some charity houses (preferably for all the people looking for lives shacked up at Calais).


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 27, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I'm fed up with the war stuff, they should bulldoze the place and just put up a memorial and some charity houses (preferably for all the people looking for lives shacked up at Calais).
		
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Are you for real, you insensitive fool?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I'm fed up with the war stuff, they should bulldoze the place and just put up a memorial and some charity houses (preferably for all the people looking for lives shacked up at Calais).
		
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Seriously ?


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## Stuart_C (Jan 27, 2015)

My 8yo daughter came home from school today and she told me she'd been learning about this. We had a boss conversation about how bad Hitler was to the Jews etc. 

She was very inquisitive and interested how the POW's lived etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I'm fed up with the war stuff, they should bulldoze the place and just put up a memorial and some charity houses (preferably for all the people looking for lives shacked up at Calais).
		
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If it wasn't for this war stuff and those that served we'd be living in a different world.

"When you go home, tell them of us and say
For their tomorrow, we gave our today"


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## JustOne (Jan 27, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Are you for real, you insensitive fool?
		
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I'm a fool for having my own opinion? Don't be a knob and start calling people names 

The English are hung up on war films, war stories, war memories, we won the war - we can stop talking about it now. I wonder what the Germans do... should we just keep rubbing it in their faces for ever and ever? We could gloat about how we used to control slaves if you want, or how our empire used to be so massive we controlled 2/3 of the worlds surface.

I'd be happy not to hear about the war ever again, that's not to say that people shouldn't be educated on such subjects and morally obliged to respect the sacrifices made in the name of freedom and democracy (which I most certainly do).




pauldj42 said:



			If it wasn't for this war stuff and those that served we'd be living in a different world.

"When you go home, tell them of us and say
For their tomorrow, we gave our today"
		
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Indeed (see above).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I'm a fool for having my own opinion? Don't be a knob and start calling people names 

The English are hung up on war films, war stories, war memories, we won the war - we can stop talking about it now. I wonder what the Germans do... should we just keep rubbing it in their faces for ever and ever? We could gloat about how we used to control slaves if you want, or how our empire used to be so massive we controlled 2/3 of the worlds surface.

I'd be happy not to hear about the war ever again, that's not to say that people shouldn't be educated on such subjects and morally obliged to respect the sacrifices made in the name of freedom and democracy (which I most certainly do).




Indeed (see above).
		
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How is remembrance gloating, The Germans also pay there respects to there dead, there are people still living whose lives are still affected by the War, it's commeration not celebration and maybe remembering is one of the ways to avoid it happening in the future.


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## JustOne (Jan 27, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			How is remembrance gloating, The Germans also pay there respects to there dead, there are people still living whose lives are still affected by the War, it's commeration not celebration and maybe remembering is one of the ways to avoid it happening in the future.
		
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I have no issue with it in terms of remembering the dead, as per my first post my personal opinion is that they should put up a memorial  and then knock the place down.... would the dead still want a concentration camp to exist 70yrs on and not some charity housing for the homeless? I think they'd have wanted that place bombed to dust!!... but that's just my opinion... hey, why don't we rebuild Fred West's house again so we can walk round it and see where the atrocities were committed??????????????????????????  (if you see what I mean).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I have no issue with it in terms of remembering the dead, as per my first post my personal opinion is that they should put up a memorial  and then knock the place down.... would the dead still want a concentration camp to exist 70yrs on and not some charity housing for the homeless? I think they'd have wanted that place bombed to dust!!... but that's just my opinion... hey, why don't we rebuild Fred West's house again so we can walk round it and see where the atrocities were committed??????????????????????????  (if you see what I mean).
		
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Knocking it down and building houses and putting asylum seekers in them comes across as nothing more than racist and insensitive. It is a permanent memorial and what about the tens of thousands of people who died and are buried there, while were at it lets build on all cemetries in UK,
This was an atrocity on a Global scale and as much as I respect your right to an opinion if you read it back you might think it was a bit crass,


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## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Knocking it down and building houses and putting asylum seekers in them comes across as nothing more than racist and insensitive.
		
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Racist???   

Insensitive to those who have a different opinion about it - of course it would seem that way as likewise their opinion is 'insensitive' to my feelings on the subject. When they pulled down fred West's house it was insensitive to those who thought is should be kept so we could wander around it and mourn for the loss of those kids. (<< a cheap but apt example as I'm glad they knocked that hell hole down!)


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## shewy (Jan 28, 2015)

Justone or one one?
Man you really are being what is commonly known as an eejit, put down the vino and have some respect man


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 28, 2015)

Strongly disagree with your opinion James

Having been to Belsen and also to Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam and war graves in France, Belgium and the Far East I feel that these places serve to remind humanity of mans inhumanity to man, that evil exists even in "civilised" countries and if not remembered will resurface at some point in the future.

The concentration camp sites specifically are a permanent memorial to the millions who were systematically exterminated within living memory ( albeit numbers are dwindling ) , there is something in the air that sends a shiver down your spine when you enter, and you wouldn't get that at a simple stone memorial.

Until the world doesn't need reminding, they will stay and as many people as possible should visit to witness and to educate future generations


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## c1973 (Jan 28, 2015)

If it is indeed there to remind us of mans inhumanity to other men it might not be a bad idea to have the Jewish state of Israel's leaders pay a visit.

It might serve to remind them that the 'fencing in', systematic theft of land and property as well as the indiscriminate killing of that states men, women and children is no different in many people's eyes (including the UN), just because it's on a different scale. 

No?


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## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			evil exists even in "civilised" countries and if not remembered will resurface at some point in the future.
		
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In the future? Are you not up to date with what has happened since the war?

I think as it stands (a tourist attraction? - for want of a better description) it only serves to make us continue to hate the Germans.

I know it's on a different scale but they didn't just leave the rubble of ground zero where it sat, they built a memorial and rebuilt, which is/was the correct thing to do in my opinion and I feel the same way about Auschwitz. 

nb: There's NO disrespect for the dead in EITHER location... so get lost Shewy.


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## guest100718 (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			In the future? Are you not up to date with what has happened since the war?

I think as it stands (a tourist attraction? - for want of a better description) it only serves to make us continue to hate the Germans.

I know it's on a different scale but they didn't just leave the rubble of ground zero where it sat, they built a memorial and rebuilt, which is/was the correct thing to do in my opinion and I feel the same way about Auschwitz. 

nb: There's NO disrespect for the dead in EITHER location... so get lost Shewy.
		
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It stands as a memorial to the 6 million Jews who were killed by the Nazis. 
I guess it eventually will become some kind of tourist attraction as it passes further into history.


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## woody69 (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I have no issue with it in terms of remembering the dead, as per my first post my personal opinion is that they should put up a memorial  and then knock the place down.... would the dead still want a concentration camp to exist 70yrs on and not some charity housing for the homeless? I think they'd have wanted that place bombed to dust!!...
		
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You do realise the camp itself is the memorial right? Where over a million people were murdered and is kept to serve as a reminder that humans are capable of truly horrific and terrible things and we should be reminded every day, to never let it happen ever again?


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## Snelly (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			There's NO disrespect for the dead in EITHER location.
		
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You've never been to visit one of the camps in question have you?


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## Crazyface (Jan 28, 2015)

The camp should be left as a permenant memorial to the horrors that happened there. Don't forget there was a movement not long ago trying to say it never happened. It is not there to rub the noses of the German people in it, it is there as a reminder to humankind of the horrors that it can do if we do not keep an ever vigilant watch on things.


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## chellie (Jan 28, 2015)

Did you look at the pictures I posted. Could you survive that? How did anyone?

How anyone can say that it needs knocking down beggars belief.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 28, 2015)

Never been there or would ever want too I don't believe I would handle it well.
1.5 million innocent children killed just gets me right in the heart.
Watching the people tell their stories yesterday after all these years and seeing how
much it still hurts,god knows what sort of ordeal they went through.


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 28, 2015)

I have been to Auschwitz, probably the most moving experience of my life. You have to go to see it in order to comprehend the sheer scale of the atrocity. It is definitely NOT a tourist attraction. Going there showed me the reality of the Holocaust in a way that no TV program or film could ever convey. It will live with me for ever. 

JustOne, of course you are entitled to your opinion but I would seriously encourage you to go there (you can visit as part of a trip to the wonderful city of Krakow) and then see if your opinion is unchanged. I doubt it would be.


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## USER1999 (Jan 28, 2015)

I have been to Dachau. It was pretty grim. I have no desire to see any more camps. One was enough. They should be left exactly as they are, as memorials to remind us what supposedly civilised westerners can do when left unchecked.


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## Rumpokid (Jan 28, 2015)

Pesonally, i think it should stay as a physical reminder of what took place there.It is a part of history that should not be bulldozed, for housing as someone suggested.A lot can be learnt for future generations, by keeping it as a permanent reminder.
By the way, anyone been to this place *Oradour-sur-Glanen?*


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## Marty420 (Jan 28, 2015)

Never been to Auschwitz, but did go to Buchenwald last summer whilst road tripping around Germany. Possibly the darkest, most harrowing place i've ever been to. The camps should be left as a reminder for future genrations of how cruel humans can be.


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## palindromicbob (Jan 28, 2015)

woody69 said:



			You do realise the camp itself is the memorial right? Where over a million people were murdered and is kept to serve as a reminder that humans are capable of truly horrific and terrible things and we should be reminded every day, to never let it happen ever again?
		
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Worst thing is we have let it happen again and again and again. Maybe not quiet on the scale of Auschwistz but genocide continues.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			In the future? Are you not up to date with what has happened since the war?

I think as it stands (a tourist attraction? - for want of a better description) it only serves to make us continue to hate the Germans.

I know it's on a different scale but they didn't just leave the rubble of ground zero where it sat, they built a memorial and rebuilt, which is/was the correct thing to do in my opinion and I feel the same way about Auschwitz. 

nb: There's NO disrespect for the dead in EITHER location... so get lost Shewy.
		
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You do realise you are the only one using the word hate and bringing asylum seekers in to this, we don't hate the Germans of today, they are a different people, that was the far right, and when you mention asylum seekers I do wonder were your political allegiances are pointed.
Auschwitz is in Poland and the Poles were massacred by the Germans so I am sure they have every right not to forget.


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## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			You do realise you are the only one using the word hate and bringing asylum seekers in to this, we don't hate the Germans of today, they are a different people, that was the far right, and when you mention asylum seekers I do wonder were your political allegiances are pointed.
Auschwitz is in Poland and the Poles were massacred by the Germans so I am sure they have every right not to forget.
		
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The asylum seekers were just an example.


Quote from a local resident..



			Auschwitz has created some jobs in Oswiecim â€“ nearly all of the campâ€™s 250 guides live there â€“ but tourists hardly ever stop in the town.

â€œWe donâ€™t exist. And when people see us, even those of us who were not born at the time, they are always thinking: â€œHow could they have let it happen?â€ complains resident Margareta Szeroka.
		
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The argument of "the camps should be left as a reminder for future genrations of how cruel humans can be" is so definitely the *most *shallow argument of all,... it ain't doing anything by being there for that reason...

The Rwandan Genocide was a genocidal mass slaughter of Tutsi and moderate Hutu in Rwanda by members of the Hutu majority. During the approximate *100-day* period from April 7, 1994, to mid-July, an estimated 500,000â€“1,000,000 Rwandans were killed,[1] constituting as much as 20% of the country's total population and 70% of the Tutsi then living in Rwanda

The Khmer Rouge, led by Pol Pot, Ta Mok and other leaders, organized the mass killing of ideologically suspect groups. The total number of victims is estimated at approximately 1.7 million Cambodians between 1975â€“1979, including deaths from slave labour......

actually here's a list take your pick....
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			I'm a fool for having my own opinion? Don't be a knob and start calling people names 

The English are hung up on war films, war stories, war memories, we won the war - we can stop talking about it now. I wonder what the Germans do... should we just keep rubbing it in their faces for ever and ever? We could gloat about how we used to control slaves if you want, or how our empire used to be so massive we controlled 2/3 of the worlds surface.

I'd be happy not to hear about the war ever again, that's not to say that people shouldn't be educated on such subjects and morally obliged to respect the sacrifices made in the name of freedom and democracy (which I most certainly do).

QUOTE]

Firstly, you may find its the British and not the English, for a start. Very Anglo-centric of you.:thup:

Secondly, it was Russia that contributed more than all the others put together for ridding us of the Nazis. Don't listen to the Whig-view of history, maybe find out a bit more of what happened outside of the films in the first place, try a bit of decent education yourself. 

I was brought up in the 70/80's when war films (including wars about Sudan, South Africa, Napoleonic times, 100 years war and many others were shown) and it was only understandable seeing as many survivors of WWII were still alive. A nation (or British empire) is obviously interested in its history, and its part of the national fabric. 

There is a slavery museum in Liverpool, as a scouser I don't go in there thinking it was my fault, or my predecessors, but it was a tragic time in human history.

And the main point is that its not there to punish or remind the German people (even though it's in Poland), but to commemorate possibly the biggest single tragedy of human history.

It was what HUMANS did to HUMANS , and not what Germans did to Jews (gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped people and others) BTW, that is the main relevance, and for not realising that I suggest that you are foolish. And to bring immigrants into it after talking about that subject, makes your argument go full circle.

Maybe crass, ignorant and an ability to know little about geography and history, might have been better used, than just saying your a fool.:thup:
		
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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			The argument of "the camps should be left as a reminder for future genrations of how cruel humans can be" is so definitely the *most *shallow argument of all,... it ain't doing anything by being there for that reason...
		
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I would be inclined to support any argument, shallow or otherwise, that helps people remember what went on. Memory(history) is what goes a long way to stopping people making the same mistake twice. Some people will understand the enormity of it all, whereas some will need a tangible reminder the size of a camp.


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2015)

Lets actually call it by its proper description - extermination camps!

Concentration (on a national basis, rather than just internment of combatants) camps were introduced by the British (not just the English) in the Boer war.

Russia, under Stalin had Gulags - forced labour camps - from 1930 until well into the 80s for 'out of favour' groups, including the same groups targeted by Hitler. Very few who were sent there returned! This spanned the war period, during which time Russia was an ally!

And let's not forget the Japanese wartime forced labour camps either!

There should certainly be some 'memorial' to those who suffered the atrocities, even just to help prevent similar ones in the future - though it seems that's quite difficult! I don't believe there can be a better memorial than the shell of at least some of those camps!


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## woody69 (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			The argument of "the camps should be left as a reminder for future genrations of how cruel humans can be" is so definitely the *most *shallow argument of all,... it ain't doing anything by being there for that reason...

The Rwandan Genocide was a genocidal mass slaughter of Tutsi and moderate Hutu in Rwanda by members of the Hutu majority. During the approximate *100-day* period from April 7, 1994, to mid-July, an estimated 500,000â€“1,000,000 Rwandans were killed,[1] constituting as much as 20% of the country's total population and 70% of the Tutsi then living in Rwanda

The Khmer Rouge, led by Pol Pot, Ta Mok and other leaders, organized the mass killing of ideologically suspect groups. The total number of victims is estimated at approximately 1.7 million Cambodians between 1975â€“1979, including deaths from slave labour......

actually here's a list take your pick....
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

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How on earth is it a "shallow" argument as you put it? All of the atrocities you have mentioned carry their own memorials to the horrific acts that went on. The wreckage of the plane in Rwanda that started the genocide or Murambi School that is now a memorial site, the prison in Cambodia (S-21) where people were sent to be killed and tortured. They aren't being torn down or tidied away so we can forget about them. The preservation of these sites are very important. It isn't something that should just be brushed under the carpet to be forgotten or redeveloped because they are a stain on our past. Every nation that has been involved in such terrible acts needs to be reminded in an effort to at least question it ever happening again in those countries.


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## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

woody69 said:



			How on earth is it a "shallow" argument as you put it?
		
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Having received a  warning for my (personal) opinion on this thread I can't answer that for you.


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## Farneyman (Jan 28, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Having received a  warning for my (personal) opinion on this thread I can't answer that for you.
		
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Maybe that's not a bad thing...

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

â€” ABRAHAM LINCOLN.


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## JustOne (Jan 28, 2015)

^
^
^


I'm sure that's against forum rules....




			The following is not acceptable on the Golf Monthly forum
Posts that contain any sexist, racist, homophobic or sectarian content
Posts or PMs that are abusive to another forum member
Posts that contain swearing. This includes the use of asterisked out swear words
*Posts that include flaming or trolling (i.e. deliberately picking fights with other members)*
Posts that are spam - i.e. posts or messages that are purely posted in a bid to trying to promote or sell services or products
Deliberately posting off topic messages in the incorrect sub-forum
		
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## Farneyman (Jan 28, 2015)

Feel free to report me.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 28, 2015)

guys, back on track please


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 28, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			guys, back on track please
		
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Given the association between Auschwitz and railways that was a bit insensitive don't you think?


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## shewy (Jan 28, 2015)

I do like the block button!


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## Liverbirdie (Jan 28, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:





JustOne said:



			I'm a fool for having my own opinion? Don't be a knob and start calling people names 

The English are hung up on war films, war stories, war memories, we won the war - we can stop talking about it now. I wonder what the Germans do... should we just keep rubbing it in their faces for ever and ever? We could gloat about how we used to control slaves if you want, or how our empire used to be so massive we controlled 2/3 of the worlds surface.

I'd be happy not to hear about the war ever again, that's not to say that people shouldn't be educated on such subjects and morally obliged to respect the sacrifices made in the name of freedom and democracy (which I most certainly do).

QUOTE]

Firstly, you may find its the British and not the English, for a start. Very Anglo-centric of you.:thup:

Secondly, it was Russia that contributed more than all the others put together for ridding us of the Nazis. Don't listen to the Whig-view of history, maybe find out a bit more of what happened outside of the films in the first place, try a bit of decent education yourself. 

I was brought up in the 70/80's when war films (including wars about Sudan, South Africa, Napoleonic times, 100 years war and many others were shown) and it was only understandable seeing as many survivors of WWII were still alive. A nation (or British empire) is obviously interested in its history, and its part of the national fabric. 

There is a slavery museum in Liverpool, as a scouser I don't go in there thinking it was my fault, or my predecessors, but it was a tragic time in human history.

And the main point is that its not there to punish or remind the German people (even though it's in Poland), but to commemorate possibly the biggest single tragedy of human history.

It was what HUMANS did to HUMANS , and not what Germans did to Jews (gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped people and others) BTW, that is the main relevance, and for not realising that I suggest that you are foolish. And to bring immigrants into it after talking about that subject, makes your argument go full circle.

Maybe crass, ignorant and an ability to know little about geography and history, might have been better used, than just saying your a fool.:thup:
		
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Still missing the point JO?
		
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## Tashyboy (Jan 28, 2015)

Me and Missis Tash have travelled to numerous city's all over Europe. Over the years. We decided to do Krakov because it was cheap and to do the salt mines and Auschwitz.

The Aushwitz you see on telly was actually one of three camps within a couple of miles. The sheer size of the camp is just unbelievable. I cannot begin the explain the emotions you go through. 

I had just started work six months previous at Thoresby and bogger me one of the lads who is now a very good mate was at the ovens in Aushwitz at the same time as me. We couldn't talk to one another.

The nazis had plans to make the camps even bigger.

a weekend we will never forget.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 28, 2015)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Given the association between Auschwitz and railways that was a bit insensitive don't you think?  

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For those that don't know Aushwitz was picked as a location because the Axis/German land captured at the height of the war meant that where ever you were transferred from in the occupied territories be it North South East or west Aushwitz was literally "sock in the middle".


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