# The Next Labour leader



## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2019)

Looks like Labour could well get thumped in tonight's election. Will Jeremy walk or be pushed. Whatever it is obvious that he will never win over Joe public. So who could well take up the position as the next Labour leader. In all honesty I don't know. I cannot think of one, so who could it be and why.


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## Robin Hood (Dec 12, 2019)

It's Diane Abbotts turn 🤔


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## Piece (Dec 12, 2019)

Heseltine? 😂


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## TreeSeeker (Dec 12, 2019)

my money is on long-bailey, either way though very disappointing exit poll, still hoping labour get more seats than that, even though it would be costly for me given the tax changes the policies were at least positive compared to the tories.


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2019)

Think I mentioned in the other thread, was told pretty clearly at the start of the week by a Labour Canvasser, that Keir Starmer is already being lined up.

Never voted Labour in my life, but I remember days when they had people whose integrity you respected even if didn't agree with their politics.... from Tony Benn right up to John Smith...

They have to ditch the loons like Corb, Abbott and McDonnell.   They are too extreme and belong in 1960s East Germany.

Polls have been wrong before, but Boris could win, mainly cos he wasn't Corbyn.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 12, 2019)

Who ever the union's want.


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## Robin Hood (Dec 12, 2019)

Keir Starmer could be a good shout IanM.

It's certainly going to an interesting few days.


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## chrisd (Dec 12, 2019)

Keir Starmer - dull as ditch water !


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2019)

I find it difficult to envisage a new Labour front bench from what they have at the moment, unless there are some good up and coming back benchers in waiting. Even the likes of Starmer, Benn and Cooper have let themselves down over their anti Brexit shinanigans.  The problem Labour have is with the National Executive, Momentum and the Unions , I dont believe they are able to change and will hold down the party for a very long time.


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2019)

And a weak opposition makes for a poorer parliament.


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## Captainron (Dec 13, 2019)

only fitting that Corbyn stood down as leader with a guy wearing a huge loony hat in the background


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour need another John Smith, or even early Tony Blair.
It’s just a shame David Miiliband is no longer active in British politics.


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## Imurg (Dec 13, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Labour need another John Smith, or even early Tony Blair.
It’s just a shame David Miiliband is no longer active in British politics.
		
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With a mixture of those 3 Labour would have strolled it...


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

All of the front bench who were kept away from the media during the campaign have been done a massive favour.
looks like Jezza won't go easily though 💩


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2019)

Don’t think it really matters .. I don’t think there is a place for left wing politics in this country. 
The media is too active in its support and influencing so who ever heads up labour will be cast as the devil.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour need shut of Momentum and it's way of doing politics.
I always thought Dan Jarvis would make a good leader but he seems to have taken.a back seat to be with his young family


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2019)

Need somebody just left of centre rather than hard left.

Keir starmer for me


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Need somebody just left of centre rather than hard left.

Keir starmer for me
		
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Keir Starmer is seen as a remain politician, I think that will taint him and Labour for years to come if he became leader


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## MegaSteve (Dec 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Don’t think it really matters .. I don’t think there is a place for left wing politics in this country.
The media is too active in its support and influencing so who ever heads up labour will be cast as the devil.
		
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There has to be a place for a 'left wing' of the people party... And, it has always been a hard slog having to deal with a right wing dominated media... It's been done before and it will happen again...


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			There has to be a place for a 'left wing' of the people party... And, it has always been a hard slog having to deal with a right wing dominated media... It's been done before and it will happen again...
		
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I know the name of Blair is toxic but a review of how he turned Labour around is worth a view. Forget the man, and have a look at the early year when he brought in so many socially aware policies. His foreign policy, even in the early years, wasn't great but his inward looking achievements were excellent. He was far more socialist than many remember.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

After his months of campaigning on Facebook and his anti Brexit stance I suggest 2blue.

Then again he may be in a darkened room with a full.media blackout in place.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 13, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Keir Starmer is seen as a remain politician, I think that will taint him and Labour for years to come if he became leader
		
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Depending on how Brexit goes in the next 5 years being seen as a Remain politician might not be a bad thing come the next GE.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 13, 2019)

I'd suggest anybody has to be a step up on Corbyn.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know the name of Blair is toxic but a review of how he turned Labour around is worth a view. Forget the man, and have a look at the early year when he brought in so many socially aware policies. His foreign policy, even in the early years, wasn't great but his inward looking achievements were excellent. He was far more socialist than many remember.
		
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I believe there were others, within the party, that advised him well and kept him on the then party line at the start... Think they lost direction towards the end of his time and he started treading his own path... Sadly, Labour seem lacking in good people at the top table presently...


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe there were others, within the party, that advised him well and kept him on the then party line at the start... Think they lost direction towards the end of his time and he started treading his own path... Sadly, Labour seem lacking in good people at the top table presently...
		
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I read a biography about his early years. Brown, although a friend in the early years, was very divisive as a Chancellor and actually made leadership very hard for Blair.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe there were others, within the party, that advised him well and kept him on the then party line at the start... Think they lost direction towards the end of his time and he started treading his own path... Sadly, Labour seem lacking in good people at the top table presently...
		
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They left or they were squeezed out, Blair's success was hiss downfall in the end.. the secret of success is to know when to hand over and keep the "momentum" going.
But seriously they were too fringe to be acceptable and if you cannot see that from a branding point of view you will never gain market share. 
Be positive about today, today is the day that that Boris has no excuses, no one will hold him back he will have to deliver. It doesn't feel like it but I am a winner.. if successful I benefit, if unsuccessful I have the pleasure at saying I told you so and hearing the fantastic excuses to follow .. will it be the death of right wing politics ... nah


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

Just seen a clip of the GMB spat between a couple of labourites, expect more of this !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205401731980578817


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen a clip of the GMB spat between a couple of labourites, expect more of this !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205401731980578817

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Most of the problem is showed with this clip 

Mainly people watching piers Morgan and reading the sun


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## MegaSteve (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I read a biography about his early years. Brown, although a friend in the early years, was very divisive as a Chancellor and actually made leadership very hard for Blair.
		
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I wouldn't disagree with that... But both, were more men of the right rather than the left... Which was why they were more acceptable to the electorate as a whole...


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## chrisd (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know the name of Blair is toxic but a review of how he turned Labour around is worth a view. Forget the man, and have a look at the early year when he brought in so many socially aware policies. His foreign policy, even in the early years, wasn't great but his inward looking achievements were excellent. He was far more socialist than many remember.
		
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He was a breath of fresh air when he first came on the scene, especially with an outdated, greedy and arrogant Tory Party. Sadly he ended up with blood on his hands


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2019)

To me, Yvette Cooper is the strong, sensible type that would have pretty broas appeal - and wouldn't be frightened to take Bozo on. Only possible 'blot' might her 'poor choice of husband'!


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## bobmac (Dec 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen a clip of the GMB spat between a couple of labourites, expect more of this !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205401731980578817

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Jack Dee had it right, once they start you cant shut them up


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 13, 2019)

Just heard a very good point by Chris Mason on Radio 5 that the way the party is currently structures it is very much for a far left type leader.  So if you got a Kier Starmer type then there would be a lot of infighting and squabbling that would play straight into the Tories hands. Some momentum types are pushing Angela Rayner who I personally think would not lay a blow on Boris and they would be in the same position at the next election.  Jess Phillips is being mentioned a bit and I do like her, but not sure if all the party would support her in its current guise.  So unless the party starts to reconfigure itself then you could argue it does not overly mater who the next leader is.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen a clip of the GMB spat between a couple of labourites, expect more of this !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205401731980578817

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That was absolutely pathetic. Less squabbles in a primary school playground!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen a clip of the GMB spat between a couple of labourites, expect more of this !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205401731980578817

Click to expand...

I saw some of that when it was happening. The woman on the right was clueless, oblivious to what had just happened. She was embarrassing herself.

Funniest moment was when Piers Morgan was asking Rachel Johnson a question about Boris and she refused to answer, she didn't want to just speak about Boris and his personal life. Jacqui Smith just turned to her and said, 'why else do you think your are here' with a look of absolute disdain. Big intake of breath all round, very funny.

The next leader is, hopefully, someone we haven't seen for the last 12 months. They will have been sat on the back benches, keeping their head down and waiting out the storm that has been happening. No one on the Labour front bench should be anywhere near the job, nor any position of responsiblity going forwards. They have all failed disastrously.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205431463178637314


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2019)

The worst decision labour have made in the leadership wasn't even Corbyn 

Ed miliband 
David should have been elected and would have provided a very good candidate to run against David Cameroon.

Alas he has left politics and we are worse off for that


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205431463178637314

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And there you have it.  Country rejected Corbyn's hard left policies, so you plebs need ever harder left wing policies.


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## DRW (Dec 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			And there you have it.  Country rejected Corbyn's hard left policies, so you plebs need ever harder left wing policies.
		
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Do these people ever speak to anyone outside their 'circle' and listen to what people say.

if they did DC would never have done the EU vote and TM would never have called an election. Just hope labour move back nearer to the centre.


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## chrisd (Dec 13, 2019)

DRW said:



			Do these people ever speak to anyone outside their 'circle' and listen to what people say.

if they did DC would never have done the EU vote and TM would never have called an election. Just hope labour move back nearer to the centre.
		
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They'll certainly need to. It was said last night that it's a 10 year government as no party has ever clawed back a loss as big  as this to gain power in the next election


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2019)

So annoyed by Labour letting so many down I think I might go and join my local Labour Party.  Labour has got to change and that change has to start now.  Corbyn has to go - take McDonnell with him.  Unfortunately Momentum seem to have such a grip - and I already hear the call go out - It was Brexit.  The policies are popular.  I dunno.

Some certainly are.  With Brexit out of the way maybe there is opportunity for another leader to come in; listen and find out the few *key *things that their lost support desperately seeks (not what you think they need) - and *focus *just on these few things; *Oppose *the Conservatives on policy specifically related to the key concerns - and highlight their failings when they arise; become an *intelligent *Opposition and over time develop into a *credible *alternative.   Then next time focus on where the government has not delivered on these key things, and explain why it need not be like that - how and why it can be *different *with Labour.  Then with *humility *ask for public support.

It seems a long trek - but every long journey starts with one footstep - you don't eat an elephant in one go - you eat it one mouthful at a time.  You just have to start.


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## DRW (Dec 13, 2019)

chrisd said:



			They'll certainly need to. It was said last night that it's a 10 year government as no party has ever clawed back a loss as big  as this to gain power in the next election
		
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Think with sorting out brexit and then letting any dust settle, will probably take 10-15 years. I am fairly neutral on the brexit issue and think there will be damage caused by it(no where near what some people have predicted, but 3-10% effect over a number of years, so may not even be measureable depending on other economic factors, as it will be a slow leakage of jobs, as companies relocate accordingly. It is already going on)

Longer/medium term will be the more interesting times and if we can really push and move forward 'on our own'. Hope the split up of the UK never happens, we are far better as one nation, I would say that, as in my eyes, as I am British not English or European said me as a remainer.

If labour rebuild properly, not sure the torys will get the 10 years to recover from any fall out from Brexit(as brexit means far to many different things to people and there is no quick fixing/doing Brexit), going to be interesting for sure.

Must be a great time to study economics at School/college/uni.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2019)

chrisd said:



			They'll certainly need to. It was said last night that it's a 10 year government as no party has ever clawed back a loss as big  as this to gain power in the next election
		
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I think that was based on the exit polls, Tony Blair gained a 145 seats to win his first term in 97.


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## User62651 (Dec 13, 2019)

Oddities observed with our political system. Behind the Tory triumph all is not quite as it seems.


LibDems increased their vote share by 4.2% (over 1 million votes) on 2017 yet lost a seat (and their leader).
SNP increased their vote share from 2017 by a meagre 0.8% but won an extra 13 seats.
Similarly Johnson's Tories got 43.6% vote share against May getting 42.4% in 2017 so only 1.2% more vote share yet turned that into an 80 (tbc) seat majority rather than May's minority.
Lib Dems improved the most of all parties since 2017 yet we are told they performed badly.
Scottish Independence is back on the agenda yet SNP did not get near 50%, bang on 45% exactly where they were for Indyref 5 + years ago and many SNP votes are just anti-Johnson, not necessarily pro independence.
Boris lauded for his amazing election yet he didn't improve much on 'hapless' May's numbers from 2017. Clearly the headlines are his seat gains from Labour but to only beat May by 1.2% he has clearly lost a lot of votes in his existing Tory seats - how does that bode for next time if Labour resurrect themselves as credible?
Tories keeping 6 seats in Scotland is significant I think, a 25.1% vote share in Scotland (down 3.5% is not as bad as expected), this is likely the Ruth Davidson factor.
Brexit Party despite all the coverage and Euro result returned 0 MPs. Yet Farage continues to get massively disproportional media coverage. Wish he'd disappear with Corbyn.

The Labour performance at 32.2% down from 40.0% in 2017 is the real story of yesterday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2019/results


Upside for me is that as Johnson has a good majority he doesn't need to listen to the ERG- Baker and Francoise etc. He doesn't need to heed Foster and Co (who lost 2 seats ) He doesn't need to heed Farage as much. With 'dangerous' Corbyn gone soon and Brexit resolved (hopefully) the Govt will actually have to perform on NHS, policing, education etc etc and hopefully there will be a decent Opposition led by a moderate to hold them to account.

Whilst I'm not Johnson's greatest fan i am prepared to give him a go. His speech was reasonably gracious to be fair, If he can improve things for all UK people then the long running UK  'issues' may die down.


edit:
next Labour leader (if they kept their seats!) either Cooper or Starmer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Oddities observed with our political system. Behind the Tory triumph all is not quite as it seems.


LibDems increased their vote share by 4.2% (over 1 million votes) on 2017 yet lost a seat (and their leader).
SNP increased their vote share from 2017 by a meagre 0.8% but won an extra 13 seats.
Similarly Johnson's Tories got 43.6% vote share against May getting 42.4% in 2017 so only 1.2% more vote share yet turned that into an 80 (tbc) seat majority rather than May's minority.
Lib Dems improved the most of all parties since 2017 yet we are told they performed badly.
Scottish Independence is back on the agenda yet SNP did not get near 50%, bang on 45% exactly where they were for Indyref 5 + years ago and many SNP votes are just anti-Johnson, not necessarily pro independence.
Boris lauded for his amazing election yet he didn't improve much on 'hapless' May's numbers from 2017. Clearly the headlines are his seat gains from Labour but to only beat May by 1.2% he has clearly lost a lot of votes in his existing Tory seats - how does that bode for next time if Labour resurrect themselves as credible?
Tories keeping 6 seats in Scotland is significant I think, a 25.1% vote share in Scotland (down 3.5% is not as bad as expected), this is likely the Ruth Davidson factor.
Brexit Party despite all the coverage and Euro result returned 0 MPs. Yet Farage continues to get massively disproportional media coverage. Wish he'd disappear with Corbyn.

The Labour performance at 32.2% down from 40.0% in 2017 is the real story of yesterday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2019/results


Upside for me is that as Johnson has a good majority he doesn't need to listen to the ERG- Baker and Francoise etc. He doesn't need to heed Foster and Co (who lost 2 seats ) He doesn't need to heed Farage as much. With 'dangerous' Corbyn gone soon and Brexit resolved (hopefully) the Govt will actually have to perform on NHS, policing, education etc etc and hopefully there will be a decent Opposition led by a moderate to hold them to account.

Whilst I'm not Johnson's greatest fan i am prepared to give him a go. His speech was reasonably gracious to be fair, If he can improve things for all UK people then the long running UK  'issues' may die down.
		
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Were did the figures come from? Interested to see if Brexit Party took votes off both Labour and tory, ie, would boris have done better than the % suggests in seats were it was a straight Labour v tory contest or did Brexit Party take votes off both?


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## User62651 (Dec 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Were did the figures come from? Interested to see if Brexit Party took votes off both Labour and tory, ie, would boris have done better than the % suggests in seats were it was a straight Labour v tory contest or did Brexit Party take votes off both?
		
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link in my thread- bbc source, tabs showing results by all UK or component parts.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Oddities observed with our political system. Behind the Tory triumph all is not quite as it seems.


LibDems increased their vote share by 4.2% (over 1 million votes) on 2017 yet lost a seat (and their leader).
SNP increased their vote share from 2017 by a meagre 0.8% but won an extra 13 seats.
Similarly Johnson's Tories got 43.6% vote share against May getting 42.4% in 2017 so only 1.2% more vote share yet turned that into an 80 (tbc) seat majority rather than May's minority.
Lib Dems improved the most of all parties since 2017 yet we are told they performed badly.
Scottish Independence is back on the agenda yet SNP did not get near 50%, bang on 45% exactly where they were for Indyref 5 + years ago and many SNP votes are just anti-Johnson, not necessarily pro independence.
Boris lauded for his amazing election yet he didn't improve much on 'hapless' May's numbers from 2017. Clearly the headlines are his seat gains from Labour but to only beat May by 1.2% he has clearly lost a lot of votes in his existing Tory seats - how does that bode for next time if Labour resurrect themselves as credible?
Tories keeping 6 seats in Scotland is significant I think, a 25.1% vote share in Scotland (down 3.5% is not as bad as expected), this is likely the Ruth Davidson factor.
Brexit Party despite all the coverage and Euro result returned 0 MPs. Yet Farage continues to get massively disproportional media coverage. Wish he'd disappear with Corbyn.

The Labour performance at 32.2% down from 40.0% in 2017 is the real story of yesterday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2019/results


Upside for me is that as Johnson has a good majority he doesn't need to listen to the ERG- Baker and Francoise etc. He doesn't need to heed Foster and Co (who lost 2 seats ) He doesn't need to heed Farage as much. With 'dangerous' Corbyn gone soon and Brexit resolved (hopefully) the Govt will actually have to perform on NHS, policing, education etc etc and hopefully there will be a decent Opposition led by a moderate to hold them to account.

Whilst I'm not Johnson's greatest fan i am prepared to give him a go. His speech was reasonably gracious to be fair, If he can improve things for all UK people then the long running UK  'issues' may die down.


edit:
next Labour leader (if they kept their seats!) either Cooper or Starmer.
		
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I am pretty sure reading the fall out, labour won't recover very swiftly ! However we have all neglected to mention the Liberals and they occupy that middle ground. Unfortunately and I quote my wife here, "Swinson was just a school run mum and the Liberals need a man leading them" ... I did need to find something to prop myself up, as my wife loves to issue orders 

Boris has 2 years to show a visible difference and keep the house 5 years to deliver a good proportion, failure to do so will see his media support start to crumble .. oh and I bet the new Labour leader eats babies..


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I am pretty sure reading the fall out, labour won't recover very swiftly ! However we have all neglected to mention the Liberals and they occupy that middle ground. Unfortunately and I quote my wife here, "*Swinson was just a school run mum and the Liberals* need a man leading them" ... I did need to find something to prop myself up, as my wife loves to issue orders 

Boris has 2 years to show a visible difference and keep the house 5 years to deliver a good proportion, failure to do so will see his media support start to crumble .. oh and I bet the new Labour leader eats babies..
		
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Rumour is Layla Moran is next in the firing line as leader, another one who was like a rabbit in the headlights in pre election interviews.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I am pretty sure reading the fall out, labour won't recover very swiftly ! However we have all neglected to mention the Liberals and they occupy that middle ground. Unfortunately and I quote my wife here, "Swinson was just a school run mum and the Liberals need a man leading them" ... I did need to find something to prop myself up, as my wife loves to issue orders 

Boris has 2 years to show a visible difference and keep the house 5 years to deliver a good proportion, failure to do so will see his media support start to crumble .. oh and I bet the new Labour leader eats babies..
		
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Stuff you can't say but sometimes does play in the minds of people! (When it shouldn't)

For example the labour candidate from my area was 22 years old for one and the bit you can't let influence the vote but will of for a lot of voters (bearing in mind it's a very much white middle class area with older money) was a young black lady. Nothing wrong with that at all btw but in a borough that disgustingly had a BNP candidate running I don't think it was the best choice to win votes! She won mine however


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just heard a very good point by Chris Mason on Radio 5 that the way the party is currently structures it is very much for a far left type leader.  So if you got a Kier Starmer type then there would be a lot of infighting and squabbling that would play straight into the Tories hands. Some momentum types are pushing Angela Rayner who I personally think would not lay a blow on Boris and they would be in the same position at the next election.  Jess Phillips is being mentioned a bit and I do like her, but not sure if all the party would support her in its current guise.  So unless the party starts to reconfigure itself then you could argue it does not overly mater who the next leader is.
		
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In it's leader I am convinced that the Labour Party needs a voice that strikes of *authenticity *to those voters who have deserted it - and who will desert it further if things do not change.  Without authenticity there can be no trust.  So start with authenticity and build trust.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Stuff you can't say but sometimes does play in the minds of people! (When it shouldn't)

For example the labour candidate from my area was 22 years old for one and the bit you can't let influence the vote but will of for a lot of voters (bearing in mind it's a very much white middle class area with older money) was a young black lady. Nothing wrong with that at all btw but in a borough that disgustingly had a BNP candidate running I don't think it was the best choice to win votes! She won mine however
		
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My MP is only 25 and she is absolutely brilliant, doesn't mince her words, doesn't hold back and is very much respected for the staunch work she does. 

Age is no barrier if you have the ability to back it up. I personally have huge respect for her.


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## fundy (Dec 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In it's leader I am convinced that the Labour Party needs a voice that strikes of *authenticity *to those voters who have deserted it - and who will desert it further if things do not change.  Without authenticity there can be no trust.  So start with authenticity and build trust.
		
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authenticity of what? what do the labour party stand for currently and what is their identity? far left or centre left as they cant be both as theyve comfortably proven


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			My MP is only 25 and she is absolutely brilliant, doesn't mince her words, doesn't hold back and is very much respected for the staunch work she does. 

Age is no barrier if you have the ability to back it up. I personally have huge respect for her.
		
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In your area yes .. knowing your audience 

Hadn't even heard of our candidate before this election and didn't see her out once 

Our mp is Julia Lopez 34 years old only came in 2 years ago when dame Angelia stood down after many many years .. easy seat to win in a massive Tory majority


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			My MP is only 25 and she is absolutely brilliant, doesn't mince her words, doesn't hold back and is very much respected for the staunch work she does.

Age is no barrier if you have the ability to back it up. I personally have huge respect for her.
		
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I completely agree with you on this. In the run up to this I got to meet our Conservative candidate a 42 year old female Dr, when I spoke to her there was no real drive, had no answers about what she would do in our local area could only tell me they'll get Brexit done and kept telling me how bad other candidates are locally instead of what she could do , add to that her leaflets were littered with grammar and spelling errors didn't give much confidence in her checking what she said or does.

Then there was our Lib Dem candidate a 19 year old lad, who spoke well had a real desire to improve local issues, when he spoke of other candidates he never once said a derogatory comment instead said he'd rather be judged on his ability to deliver than talk down others.

I know where my vote went and age was not factor its about what people stand for thats important. Sadly this is what labour  has lost, its credibility with the voting public and it won't regain it until radical change happens by ridding themselves of momentum.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I completely agree with you on this. In the run up to this I got to meet our Conservative candidate a 42 year old female Dr, when I spoke to her there was no real drive, had no answers about what she would do in our local area could only tell me they'll get Brexit done and kept telling me how bad other candidates are locally instead of what she could do , add to that her leaflets were littered with grammar and spelling errors didn't give much confidence in her checking what she said or does. 

Then there was our Lib Dem candidate a 19 year old lad, who spoke well had a real desire to improve local issues, when he spoke of other candidates he never once said a derogatory comment instead said he'd rather be judged on his ability to deliver than talk down others. 

I know where my vote went and age was not factor its about what people stand for thata important.
		
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Again knowing the audience 

Our borough with the BNP running and getting 500 votes (awful they even ran) in a massive leave borough with the main issue being immigration just seemed like a very weird choice


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

Its a tough one for Labour. Should one man go, Corbyn, or should it include McDonnell and Gardiner? Is Momentum part of the problem? 

Who next to take up the poisoned chalice? 

Starmer, Long-Bailey, Yvette Cooper? Until his minor cock-up I would have gone for Jonathan Ashworth. Nice, straight talking guy who speaks with honesty and sincerity.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2019)

Russell Brand


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I completely agree with you on this. In the run up to this I got to meet our Conservative candidate a 42 year old female Dr, when I spoke to her there was no real drive, had no answers about what she would do in our local area could only tell me they'll get Brexit done and kept telling me how bad other candidates are locally instead of what she could do , add to that her leaflets were littered with grammar and spelling errors didn't give much confidence in her checking what she said or does.

Then there was our Lib Dem candidate a 19 year old lad, who spoke well had a real desire to improve local issues, when he spoke of other candidates he never once said a derogatory comment instead said he'd rather be judged on his ability to deliver than talk down others.

I know where my vote went and age was not factor its about what people stand for thats important. Sadly this is what labour  has lost, its credibility with the voting public and *it won't regain it until radical change happens by ridding themselves of momentum*.
		
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the labour leader is voted on by the party members and from what i've been told the majority want a more left wing labour, i can't see that changing.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Again knowing the audience

Our borough with the BNP running and getting 500 votes (awful they even ran) in a massive leave borough with the main issue being immigration just seemed like a very weird choice
		
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That's my point though in my last sentence. Labour don't seem to know their audience, the polls have proven that along with all the in fighting they currently have.


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## User62651 (Dec 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I am pretty sure reading the fall out, labour won't recover very swiftly ! However we have all neglected to mention the Liberals and they occupy that middle ground. Unfortunately and I quote my wife here, "Swinson was just a school run mum and the Liberals need a man leading them" ... I did need to find something to prop myself up, as my wife loves to issue orders 

Boris has 2 years to show a visible difference and keep the house 5 years to deliver a good proportion, failure to do so will see his media support start to crumble .. oh and I bet the new Labour leader eats babies..
		
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What i can't quite get is why Corbyn got 40% in 2017 (not so long ago) and had crowds singing his name, yet 2.5 years later despite appearing to be the same bloke, many voters deserted him. Tory Govt has been pretty terrible during that intervening period too.

What changed so much? 

seems Tory PR machine got it's anti Corbyn message through better this time somehow.

Frustrated Leave voters in Labour working class areas seems to be the difference as Conservatives have loads more seats without much of an increase in overall vote share since 2017.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			the labour leader is voted on by the party members and from what i've been told the majority want a more left wing labour, i can't see that changing.
		
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As is every parties leader. I fear your right though from reports this morning showing that "momentum" are going nowhere and believe they're are doing things right and that it was purely brexits fault. Obviously that had a big impact but look how many candidates have already thrown Corbyn under the bus saying it was his fault and nothing else. 

Whatever happens its a long road back and now we have 5 years of waiting to see what happens under Boris and Brexit.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			That's my point though in my last sentence. Labour don't seem to know their audience, the polls have proven that along with all the in fighting they currently have.
		
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Sorry yes I misread that, just very poor all round


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## chrisd (Dec 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			What i can't quite get is why Corbyn got 40% in 2017 (not so long ago) and had crowds singing his name, yet 2.5 years later despite appearing to be the same bloke, many voters deserted him. Tory Govt has been pretty terrible during that intervening period too.

What changed so much?

seems Tory PR machine got it's anti Corbyn message through better this time somehow.

Frustrated Leave voters in Labour working class areas seems to be the difference as Conservatives have loads more seats without much of an increase in overall vote share since 2017.
		
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May was the worst PM ever and ran a very poor GE. Corbyn promised much less in 2017, and possibly deliverable changes, than his promises this time that would bust the country. The conservatives majored on how bad for security Corbyn is and also the lack of a cohesive Brexit plan hat eventually did for Labour


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2019)

fundy said:



			authenticity of what? what do the labour party stand for currently and what is their identity? far left or centre left as they cant be both as theyve comfortably proven
		
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At the very outset the Labour Party offer is actually now irrelevant.

An authentic *voice* - especially for those of the midlands and north - is for me someone like Lisa Nandy.  She talks clearly, steadily, thoughtfully and without hesitancy.  I think she could look me in the eye and ask me what I need from her and I would listen - and then she would tell me that she understands what I am saying - but she would not tell me what I need from Labour.  I think she could tell me what she stood for, and I think I might give her time to get my trust - I would not have to have her *tell *me the answers to my problems - but I would *hear *her and I would draw my own conclusions.


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## fundy (Dec 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At the very outset the Labour Party offer is actually now irrelevant.

An authentic *voice* - especially for those of the midlands and north - is for me someone like Lisa Nandy.  She talks clearly, steadily, thoughtfully and without hesitancy.  I think she could look me in the eye and ask me what I need from her and I would listen - and then she would tell me that she understands what I am saying - but she would not tell me what I need from Labour.  I think she could tell me what she stood for, and I think I might give her time to get my trust - I would not have to have her *tell *me the answers to my problems - but I would *hear *her and I would draw my own conclusions.
		
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what do you want her to stand for? what do you think Labour should be going forward?


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## Foxholer (Dec 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			That was absolutely pathetic. Less squabbles in a primary school playground!
		
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Notwithstanding the, perhaps, dodgy grammar, I totally agree!

Mind you. Had it been the Tories that had lost (never a possibility) a similar 'spat' would undoubtedly have happened, but it would have been held behind closed doors!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2019)

fundy said:



			what do you want her to stand for? what do you think Labour should be going forward?
		
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It is not for me to say what she (or any Labour leader) should stand for - other than a fair society - fair for us all and supporting and prioritising those who need it most. 

I am not who she needs to convince.  If she gets the support of the most needy and those from the post-industrial towns that Labour have lost - then she gets my support.  

I have wealth (assets) out of reach of the vast majority of the UK (good pensions and owning my own home in Surrey).  I do not need much at all from government, and I am happy to contribute more.

It really is not about me or for me to decide what others need.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So annoyed by Labour letting so many down I think I might go and join my local Labour Party.  Labour has got to change and that change has to start now.  Corbyn has to go - take McDonnell with him.  Unfortunately Momentum seem to have such a grip - and I already hear the call go out - It was Brexit.  The policies are popular.  I dunno.

Some certainly are.  With Brexit out of the way maybe there is opportunity for another leader to come in; listen and find out the few *key *things that their lost support desperately seeks (not what you think they need) - and *focus *just on these few things; *Oppose *the Conservatives on policy specifically related to the key concerns - and highlight their failings when they arise; become an *intelligent *Opposition and over time develop into a *credible *alternative.   Then next time focus on where the government has not delivered on these key things, and explain why it need not be like that - how and why it can be *different *with Labour.  Then with *humility *ask for public support.

It seems a long trek - but every long journey starts with one footstep - you don't eat an elephant in one go - you eat it one mouthful at a time.  You just have to start.
		
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There is much in what you say, and there is also much in what you haven't said!
The Labour Party need not only to identify and oppose bad Tory policies, they need to identify those bad Labour policies and activities and attitudes etc , and ditch them.
And that includes the preponderance of politically correct demands and attitudes that results in decent people being hounded for alternative reasonable views in a manner which denies too quickly the right of free speech. You cannot deny that free speech is being attacked now in a country that used to pride itself on such a virtue.
I think a lot of people voted against Labour with such thoughts in mind.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There is much in what you say, and there is also much in what you haven't said!
The Labour Party need not only to identify and oppose bad Tory policies, they need to identify those bad Labour policies and activities and attitudes etc , and ditch them.
And that includes the preponderance of politically correct demands and attitudes that results in decent people being hounded for alternative reasonable views in a manner which denies too quickly the right of free speech. You cannot deny that free speech is being attacked now in a country that used to pride itself on such a virtue.
I think a lot of people voted against Labour with such thoughts in mind.
		
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I'd like to add something to the above list. For those supporters of Labour that think that its ok to use vile language in identifying opponents, they just look like loutish thugs.

Robust debate, even to the extent of things like arrogant, selfish, greedy, fine crack on with that. But how many Labour candidates were verbally abused in the streets with the vilest language and barely contained fury? Barely a one that I have heard of. And how have some of the Labour supporters behaved to some Tory candidates?

Do I want to vote for a left of centre, socialist (not Marxist) Labour party? Yes I do. Do I want to be associated with loutish thugs? No.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There is much in what you say, and there is also much in what you haven't said!
The Labour Party need not only to identify and oppose bad Tory policies, they need to identify those bad Labour policies and activities and attitudes etc , and ditch them.
And that includes the preponderance of politically correct demands and attitudes that results in decent people being hounded for alternative reasonable views in a manner which denies too quickly the right of free speech. You cannot deny that free speech is being attacked now in a country that used to pride itself on such a virtue.
I think a lot of people voted against Labour with such thoughts in mind.
		
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There is much to be said for dropping some politically correct 'demands' as they can be blown up out of all proportion; used to stir up unnecessary anger and get in the way of discussion of serious issues.  

But I believe that the truth is that most of us are not at all constrained or impacted in our lives by political correctness - and if we feel angry or frustrated by what we perceive to be such, then we should stop a moment and reflect upon our emotions and why we are getting annoyed.  Because I suspect that we all know that our anger and frustration is simply that of a small child not getting what it wants and making a noisy fuss.

I don't know of any times that I have felt that I could not express a view without fear of being hounded - but many clearly do.  But again.  I simply ask whether the views are being expressed to any end, or simply because we feel we *can *express them - that we have a *right* to do so.

And as is evident from the forum, there is much said at times about my faith and beliefs that I could well get upset about - and I could complain to the mods about.  But I don't.  And that is the other side of the coin - much Political Correctness is by some on behalf of others.  

I don't need anyone to stand up for me here (it's nice when it happens  ); I don't need anyone thinking that what is being said might upset me.  I can be the judge of that.  And the truth is I just let it all go (though I push back on misrepresentation).  Political Correctness is for me simply looking out for others.  And that is important.  But we can all go too far in doing that; sometimes we don't need to; sometimes we do.  It's a balance.


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## drdel (Dec 13, 2019)

^^^ I'm having great difficulty with relating the above moans to the question posed by the thread's title...


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			^^^ I'm having great difficulty with relating the above moans to the question posed by the thread's title...
		
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You're not the only, no relevance to it at all.


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## Imurg (Dec 13, 2019)

I know threads wander a bit but this one's turned left at the traffic lights...


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## drdel (Dec 13, 2019)

Imurg said:



			I know threads wander a bit but this one's turned left at the traffic lights...
		
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Left or Right would have been good but I think Labour was too busy looking in the rear view mirror to see they were at a 'T' junction.

Perhaps they'll ask Gina Miller as she's got some spare time.


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

if they want to appeal to the masses, someone under 60, can head a football or have a kick around with some young scamps on the local field, have a youngish family for those all important Photo Opps... someone who's never done anything that can be dragged up from 30 years ago Oh get themsleves a silly slogan.... and def not a Socialist.. sorted


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

Imurg said:



			I know threads wander a bit but this one's turned left at the traffic lights...
		
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I wonder who the driving instructor was?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			What i can't quite get is why Corbyn got 40% in 2017 (not so long ago) and had crowds singing his name, yet 2.5 years later despite appearing to be the same bloke, many voters deserted him. Tory Govt has been pretty terrible during that intervening period too.

What changed so much?

seems Tory PR machine got it's anti Corbyn message through better this time somehow.

Frustrated Leave voters in Labour working class areas seems to be the difference as Conservatives have loads more seats without much of an increase in overall vote share since 2017.
		
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That’s last bit is the answer, they were impatient and wanted to leave. It doesn’t bode too well, but time will tell. 
I wonder whether they will live to regret that decision? But in the end who cares they have made a choice and we will all live with it.


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## Imurg (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder who the driving instructor was?
		
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It wasn't me, I wasn't there, you can't prove a thing........


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder who the driving instructor was?
		
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Probably Putin will get the blame!

Corbyn offered things the public knew he could not achieve.
Remember British rail. British Leyland.
The public are not stupid.


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## drdel (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder who the driving instructor was?
		
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They obviously had too much  'momentum'...


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Probably Putin will get the blame!

Corbyn offered things the public knew he could not achieve.
Remember British rail. British Leyland.
The public are not stupid.
		
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I'm not sure he did, this was the first Socialist Manfesto in what 30 years, i don't think parts of the UK care enough or are ready for that and longer


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I'm not sure he did, this was the first Socialist Manfesto in what 30 years, i don't parts of the UK care enough or are ready for that and longer
		
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Its been drilled into people over the years ,don’t overstretch yourself.
Don’t buy things you can’t afford on credit cards.
Yet he wanted to buy the whole Monopoly board and people knew that didn’t make sense.


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Its been drilled into people over the years ,don’t overstretch yourself.
Don’t buy things you can’t afford on credit cards.
Yet he wanted to buy the whole Monopoly board and people knew that didn’t make sense.
		
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i'm not sure thats the case, you only have to llok at the amout of Credit card debt about, all i saw was brexit, brexit brexit and people bought into  that. I also think people about other any long and didn't care that they were being offered a change. Railways are in a state, Privitisation hasn't really worked cost have rocketed, service is worse and the gov have to keep bailing out the companies that are running them. Water and utilites are making a killing without re investment, while cost to the consumer rise.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i'm not sure thats the case, you only have to llok at the amout of Credit card debt about, all i saw was brexit, brexit brexit and people bought into  that. I also think people about other any long and didn't care that they were being offered a change. Railways are in a state, Privitisation hasn't really worked cost have rocketed, service is worse and the gov have to keep bailing out the companies that are running them. Water and utilites are making a killing without re investment, while cost to the consumer rise.
		
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I think part of the issue is what describe except that people already know they can't afford to live like they are but also are intelligent enough to know that the promises in Labours manifesto simply aren't affordable and feared the additional costs to them in the long run. Had labour scaled back a bit in their manifesto and not promised the world then the Brexit issue wouldn't have been such a significant factor.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I'm not sure he did, this was the first Socialist Manfesto in what 30 years, i don't parts of the UK care enough or are ready for that and longer
		
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There is a reason we havent had a real left wing socialist Manifesto since Michael Foot and thats because his was unaffordable, potentially damaging to the country and unelectable. People had supposedly learned a lesson from it.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I think part of the issue is what describe except that people already know they can't afford to live like they are but also are intelligent enough to know that the promises in Labours manifesto simply aren't affordable and feared the additional costs to them in the long run. Had labour scaled back a bit in their manifesto and not promised the world then the Brexit issue wouldn't have been such a significant factor.
		
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For me, saying they were going to take back ownership of BT and give everyone free broadband just showed me he was away with the fairies.
However, I look forward to the 40 new hospitals Bojo has said we will have, 20k policemen (they got rid of) and 6k GP's by the time of the next general election. He said it, it wasn't on a bus.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			For me, saying they were going to take back ownership of BT and give everyone free broadband just showed me he was away with the fairies.
However, I look forward to the 40 new hospitals Bojo has said we will have, 20k policemen (they got rid of) and 6k GP's by the time of the next general election. He said it, it wasn't on a bus.
		
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Exactly right BM, making silly promises in free broadband which would be at an unbelievable cost, creating a new bank just to then borrow an exorbitant amount of money from it along with other things it was just to much. 

As for Boris's (Tories) promises I wait with baited breath to see what actually comes to fruition.


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## DRW (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I think part of the issue is what describe except that people already know they can't afford to live like they are but also are intelligent enough to know that the promises in Labours manifesto simply aren't affordable and feared the additional costs to them in the long run. Had labour scaled back a bit in their manifesto and not promised the world then the Brexit issue wouldn't have been such a significant factor.
		
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IIRC the 2017 manifesto was not half as bad when I read it, I didn't react like I did to 2019 one, 2017 was still a fair way left of centre. Perhaps the 2017 could have been afforded and the tax increases weren't so scary.

Something changed in those 2ish years.

Fingers crossed the torys perform, should start hearing about policies early in the year if things are really going to change or it will just be EU talk to hide behind.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

DRW said:



			IIRC the 2017 manifesto was not half as bad when I read it, I didn't react like I did to 2019 one, 2017 was still a fair way left of centre. Perhaps the 2017 could have been afforded and the tax increases weren't so scary.

Something changed in those 2ish years.

Fingers crossed the torys perform, should start hearing about policies early in the year if things are really going to change or it will just be EU talk to hide behind.
		
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REally the talk over the EU should be over.
There’s not much the public can do in a trade deal.

I think people knew Corbyn maths just didn’t make sense.
If you screw the top 5% they will just move somewhere else.
That then leaves us paying.
A the end it’s easy to spend someone else’s money.
But if they leave and you have to get it from somewhere else.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2019)

I think the top 5% are not as important as your top 40% earners .. we lose them we lose skills and the ability to develop our economy. 
The top 1-2% are not really of value you cannot see them actually generating anything as they either live off investments or rely on the skilled professionals to make their money grow their business etc ..


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the top 5% are not as important as your top 40% earners .. we lose them we lose skills and the ability to develop our economy. 
The top 1-2% are not really of value you cannot see them actually generating anything as they either live off investments or rely on the skilled professionals to make their money grow their business etc ..
		
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Do you know how much of our tax they pay?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you know how much of our tax they pay?
		
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Not enough


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## fundy (Dec 13, 2019)

I see theres already a back Burgon account on twitter for next labour leader. For Labour voters and the state of our country I hope this is a spoof account!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not enough 

Click to expand...

Do you, or dont you want to say 🙄


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2019)

fundy said:



			I see theres already a back Burgon account on twitter for next labour leader. For Labour voters and the state of our country I hope this is a spoof account!!!!
		
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If you want a real laugh, David Lammy was on the radio yesterday and did not rule out standing 😱😱


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you want a real laugh, David Lammy was on the radio yesterday and did not rule out standing 😱😱
		
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There's worse options.  Also bear in mind this leader probably won't be the one to take them to victory at an election, but the one after this will be.  So this one will be a transition leader, hopefully starting to move them away form the hard left towards a more centre left position.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There's worse options.  Also bear in mind this leader probably won't be the one to take them to victory at an election, but the one after this will be.  So this one will be a transition leader, hopefully starting to move them away form the hard left towards a more centre left position.
		
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I dont neccessarily agree there.
I think a leader who galvanises the centre voter and offers more substance than what Trump-et will have done, when after 5 years those 40 new hospitals and 6k GP's are still "pending", would overturn the loses of this time and reverse the tables. That is of course if the left wing of the Labour party can see past their own dogmatic noses.
Personally though, I fear another "Milliband moment" coming.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you, or dont you want to say 🙄
		
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Nah you surprise us... you love a big reveal


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## Beezerk (Dec 14, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you want a real laugh, David Lammy was on the radio yesterday and did not rule out standing 😱😱
		
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Yes I heard that as well 😯


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## Old Skier (Dec 14, 2019)

Chucka best of three


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## harpo_72 (Dec 14, 2019)

Time to forget them .. they need to get to the bottom before they realise


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## stefanovic (Dec 14, 2019)

Next Labour leader simply needs to be someone who will make you feel welcome even if you don't come from the far left.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I dont neccessarily agree there.
I think a leader who galvanises the centre voter and offers more substance than what Trump-et will have done, w*hen after 5 years those 40 new hospitals and 6k GP's are still "pending", would overturn the loses of this time and reverse the tables. *That is of course if the left wing of the Labour party can see past their own dogmatic noses.
Personally though, I fear another "Milliband moment" coming.
		
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I'd like to agree with you.  But I think we are increasingly in an era where old rules on how you judge a parties competence and performance when you vote do not matter.

Leaders can hide from scrutiny, they can do and say stuff that in the past would have been a show stopper but now are brushed aside. They stick to one simple message and never admit they got anything wrong, I lost count of the number of times an interviewer would ask a MP to say sorry, admit something that they had done in the past was possibly the wrong call, but they never did.  Parties are a lot more clever on how they target their adverts especially in social media, the line between independent newspapers and straight out party propaganda is becoming increasingly blurred. Say what you want about Cummings but he is a clever ^&^&%^ when it comes to strategy and understood a lot of this. Where as Labour seem to be mostly driven by ideological sixth form politics that is all very worthy and indeed I agree with a lot of it.  But do not seem that savvy when it comes to the majority of Uk voters and how to win them over.

So I think how parties and leaders are judged and the way we judge them is changing radically.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd like to agree with you.  But I think we are increasingly in an era where old rules on how you judge a parties competence and performance when you vote do not matter.

Leaders can hide from scrutiny, they can do and say stuff that in the past would have been a show stopper but now are brushed aside. They stick to one simple message and never admit they got anything wrong, I lost count of the number of times an interviewer would ask a MP to say sorry, admit something that they had done in the past was possibly the wrong call, but they never did.  Parties are a lot more clever on how they target their adverts especially in social media, the line between independent newspapers and straight out party propaganda is becoming increasingly blurred. Say what you want about Cummings but he is a clever ^&^&%^ when it comes to strategy and understood a lot of this. Where as Labour seem to be mostly driven by ideological sixth form politics that is all very worthy and indeed I agree with a lot of it.  But do not seem that savvy when it comes to the majority of Uk voters and how to win them over.

So I think how parties and leaders are judged and the way we judge them is changing radically.
		
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We’ll just have to wait and see who the media decide is sufficient.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We’ll just have to wait and see who the media decide is sufficient.

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Think that's another thing us lefties or potential lefties need to accept, newspapers will be overwhelmingly pro Tory and against Labour. And whilst it is crap and needs to be highlighted, just moaning about it won't change anything so Labour need to wise up and come up with ways of circumnavigating them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think that's another thing us lefties or potential lefties need to accept, newspapers will be overwhelmingly pro Tory and against Labour. And whilst it is crap and needs to be highlighted, just moaning about it won't change anything so Labour need to wise up and come up with ways of circumnavigating them.
		
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Or work with them as Blair and Campbell did. They spent a good while cultivating the media, not permanently fighting them.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd like to agree with you.  But I think we are increasingly in an era where old rules on how you judge a parties competence and performance when you vote do not matter.

Leaders can hide from scrutiny, they can do and say stuff that in the past would have been a show stopper but now are brushed aside. They stick to one simple message and never admit they got anything wrong, I lost count of the number of times an interviewer would ask a MP to say sorry, admit something that they had done in the past was possibly the wrong call, but they never did.  Parties are a lot more clever on how they target their adverts especially in social media, the line between independent newspapers and straight out party propaganda is becoming increasingly blurred. Say what you want about Cummings but he is a clever ^&^&%^ when it comes to strategy and understood a lot of this. Where as Labour seem to be mostly driven by ideological sixth form politics that is all very worthy and indeed I agree with a lot of it.  But do not seem that savvy when it comes to the majority of Uk voters and how to win them over.

So I think how parties and leaders are judged and the way we judge them is changing radically.
		
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Do you not think that what we have just experienced is a re-run of what happened with Michael foot all those years ago. Labour learned a lesson after that and through a process of itteration that took them from Kinnock to Blair and subsiquent office should have been a lesson well learned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Or work with them as Blair and Campbell did. They spent a good while cultivating the media, not permanently fighting them.
		
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Or the media (ie BBC,) actually do their job and remain unbiased, by all means call out errors, but stay neutral.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Shame Chuka Umunna (excuse spelling) left the party, he's intelligent and presentable, maybe there's a way back for him.  I didn't like his second referendum obsession but rate him as a potential leader.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Or the media (ie BBC,) actually do their job and remain unbiased, by all means call out errors, but stay neutral.
		
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The right are convinced the BBC is full of lefties, the left believe it is biased against them. Confused 😳.

I agree that TV media should remain neutral and be sanctioned if not. The written media is long lost on that front but we all know that.

Labour didn't lose this election because of the media, not by a long way.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Shame Chuca left the party, he's intelligent and presentable, maybe there's a way back for him.  I didn't like his second referendum obsession but rate him as a potential leader.
		
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Had he kept his head down, ridden this era out, he could have been a great shout for leader. He would have had huge appeal to middle England. It's a shame he lost patience and has blown his career, I was a fan.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Shame Chuca left the party, he's intelligent and presentable, maybe there's a way back for him.  I didn't like his second referendum obsession but rate him as a potential leader.
		
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The likes of  Chuka Umuna, the Millibands etc are part of the reason Labour has lost its heartlands. Career southern politicians parachuted into safe seats who the electorate don't identify with and to tbh vice versa. Labour concentrated for too long on that middle ground and took for granted it's heartlands


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The likes of  Chuka Umuna, the Millibands etc are part of the reason Labour has lost its heartlands. Career southern politicians parachuted into safe seats who the electorate don't identify with and to tbh vice versa. Labour concentrated for too long on that middle ground and took for granted it's heartlands
		
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Have you been asleep this week?


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Have you been asleep this week?
		
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Do you actually know Chuka Umuna is a remain supporting Lib Dem career politician ?
Oh wait on SR you've stumbled on the perfect solution to all working class Labour's northern woes🙄


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you actually know Chuka Umuna is a remain supporting Lib Dem career politician ?
Oh wait on SR you've stumbled on the perfect solution to all working class Labour's northern woes🙄
		
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Read my post, I said I accept he was a second referendum supporter but centre left which is the only way forward for labour unless they want to destroy themselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The right are convinced the BBC is full of lefties, the left believe it is biased against them. Confused 😳.

I agree that TV media should remain neutral and be sanctioned if not. The written media is long lost on that front but we all know that.

Labour didn't lose this election because of the media, not by a long way.
		
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Never said they lost it because of the media, there were a few far greater reasons, but the media certainly didn’t help.

One small example:


That headline, yet when you read the article you find they found 88% of tory adverts factually incorrect and 0% Labour adverts.
Therefore that headline is misleading, why isn’t calling out the tories?

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50726500


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

Heard on a podcast today that Labour want to favour a female leader.  Leaving the tedious positive discrimination arguments aside, I think it's opening up for Jess Phillips to be the leader.  Not 100% convinced it will work, but as an antidote to the Eton Rifles it may be a masterstroke.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Heard on a podcast today that Labour want to favour a female leader.  Leaving the tedious positive discrimination arguments aside, I think it's opening up for Jess Phillips to be the leader.  Not 100% convinced it will work, but as an antidote to the Eton Rifles it may be a masterstroke.
		
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I think a woman on the soft left of the party could work. Any association with momentum has to go as has Blairite's. Labour has to win back it's core vote in Scotland, Wales, N England and the Midlands first. I think Angela Rayner or Jess Philip's may not be the worst outcome


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 14, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The likes of  Chuka Umuna, the Millibands etc are part of the reason Labour has lost its heartlands. Career southern politicians parachuted into safe seats who the electorate don't identify with and to tbh vice versa. Labour concentrated for too long on that middle ground and took for granted it's heartlands
		
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Err I disagree, Labour with the Marxist Momentum group swerved so far to the left that many average labour voters could not bring themselves to cast their vote for Labour.

Brexit was another huge issue, people just want it over and done with, Boris has a plan, Labour didn’t apart from more dither.

Also Labours manifesto was economically in fantasy land.

The key here is not that Boris won, the overwhelming fact is people who have never voted Tory before, did, as they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Corbyn


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Never said they lost it because of the media, there were a few far greater reasons, but the media certainly didn’t help.

One small example:
View attachment 28767

That headline, yet when you read the article you find they found 88% of tory adverts factually incorrect and 0% Labour adverts.
Therefore that headline is misleading, why isn’t calling out the tories?

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50726500

Click to expand...

Trouble is you fall down the rabbit hole of thinking Laura Kuenssberg is part of Tory HQ as the people you follow are convinced of it and you see bias in everything. For example Kuenberg tweeted something about Boris potentially getting a 'decent' majority' and momentum twitter lost their **** as she used the word 'decent'. As they saw it is meaning 'a good thing he has a majority' rather than meaning 'large'.

I agree that her and a few others (Peston for example) have not had a great election and have essentially been used by the tories on occasions when labour activists have allegedly punched minsters aids.   But I think it more down to them getting used to the new political way of operating rather then them being closet tories, and people often confuse the messenger with the message. And if the momentum types just get convinced that they are the enemy then they won't get anywhere.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Heard on a podcast today that Labour want to favour a female leader.  Leaving the tedious positive discrimination arguments aside, I think it's opening up for Jess Phillips to be the leader.  Not 100% convinced it will work, but as an antidote to the Eton Rifles it may be a masterstroke.
		
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I think shes much better than Long-bayley or Starmer, the rest of the shadow cabinet are not up to it IMO.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I think a woman on the soft left of the party could work. Any association with momentum has to go as has Blairite's. Labour has to win back it's core vote in Scotland, Wales, N England and the Midlands first. I think Angela Rayner or Jess Philip's may not be the worst outcome
		
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I think Reynor is too 'left' and associated with Corbyn to be called soft left. Also whilst I admire the 'left school at 16 without any qualifications and worked her way up narrative,' I think the way the UK media currently operates means she would be crucified in the press.


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## Old Skier (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Heard on a podcast today that Labour want to favour a female leader.  Leaving the tedious positive discrimination arguments aside, I think it's opening up for Jess Phillips to be the leader.  Not 100% convinced it will work, but as an antidote to the Eton Rifles it may be a masterstroke.
		
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Labour will have to sort out the party within a party first. Shouted out for Jess previously but momentum hate her with a vengeance as she does them. Two of the females being touted are Corbyniesters which IMO could lead to a labour war before anything is resolved if indeed it can be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is you fall down the rabbit hole of thinking Laura Kuenssberg is part of Tory HQ as the people you follow are convinced of it and you see bias in everything. For example Kuenberg tweeted something about Boris potential getting a 'decent' majority' and momentum twitter lost their **** as she used the word decent.

I agree that her and a few others (Peston for example) have not had a great election and have essentially been used by the tories.  But I think it more down to them getting used to the new political way of operating rather then them being closet tories. And if the momentum types just get convinced that they are the enemy then they won't get anywhere.
		
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You’d hope most people of average intelligence are capable of picking the wheat from the chaff, but that also counts for the credibility of certain media outlets.
We know newspapers have their bias based on the owners, but I would expect an institution like the BBC to tread a careful path, call out all sides when they are wrong are factually incorrect and report the facts.
The BBC also have to take a look at themselves and do their utmost to try ensure they are not used as a pawn, the Leeds Hosp and Hancock leading to deleted tweets is an example were they failed to carryout due diligence.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 14, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Err I disagree, Labour with the Marxist Momentum group swerved so far to the left that many average labour voters could not bring themselves to cast their vote for Labour.

Brexit was another huge issue, people just want it over and done with, Boris has a plan, Labour didn’t apart from more dither.

Also Labours manifesto was economically in fantasy land.

The key here is not that Boris won, the overwhelming fact is people who have never voted Tory before, did, as they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Corbyn
		
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I think they should ditch momentum as well and it's far left agenda. However Blair and his government's failed them along with a succession of Tory governments. They need a Labour party that gets their issues and has a manifesto that will address them they're sick to the back teeth of metropolitan socialists. Farage and Cumming both understood they haven't had a political voice in decades


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2019)

Angela Rayner has made me cringe whenever I've seen her interviewed so I'm hoping not her. Jess Philips has definite potential. She speaks well, seems media savvy and sharp. She can be a bit angry and shoutey which doesn't play well but that side can be refined. She is also untainted by the Corbyn era, an important fact perhaps.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Labour will have to sort out the party within a party first. Shouted out for Jess previously but momentum hate her with a vengeance as she does them. Two of the females being touted are Corbyniesters which IMO could lead to a labour war before anything is resolved if indeed it can be.
		
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Agreed, that’s why in someways Corbyn hanging in there is going to get more and more embarrassing, which in turn will hopefully lead to a good clean out leaving something a bit more left of centre than left of left!

No need to rush either as boris will help by failing on some of his promises as well as we go along.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think Reynor is too 'left' and associated with Corbyn to be called soft left. Also whilst I admire the 'left school at 16 without any qualifications and worked her way up narrative,' I think the way the UK media currently operates means she would be crucified in the press.
		
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I hadn't realised she was strongly associated with Corbyn. That should definitely rule her out if she is


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I hadn't realised she was strongly associated with Corbyn. That should definitely rule her out if she is
		
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She is his Shadow Education Minister.


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## Old Skier (Dec 14, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I hadn't realised she was strongly associated with Corbyn. That should definitely rule her out if she is
		
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Raynor makes Corbyn look like a tired old pussycat


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I hadn't realised she was strongly associated with Corbyn. That should definitely rule her out if she is
		
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I may be doing her a disservice but if you look on their twitter feeds Jess Phillips is addressing the issues with Corbyn through retweets of someone calling out Corbyn and his facilitators in his cabinet. Where as Reynor, understandably because she was in the shadow cabinet, is not.


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## larmen (Dec 14, 2019)

Is being Labour leader right now a position people aspiring to? Or is it poised anyway?

Much like following Ferguson at United or Wenger at Arsenal?


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Err I disagree, Labour with the Marxist Momentum group swerved so far to the left that many average labour voters could not bring themselves to cast their vote for Labour.

Brexit was another huge issue, people just want it over and done with, Boris has a plan, Labour didn’t apart from more dither.

Also Labours manifesto was economically in fantasy land.

The key here is not that Boris won, the overwhelming fact is people who have never voted Tory before, did, as they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Corbyn
		
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I think you're probably right.

Momentum has a pretty firm grip on the core of the Labour 'centre' and that is going to be an issue IMO; Corbyn hanging on isn't doing them an favours either.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

larmen said:



			Is being Labour leader right now a position people aspiring to? Or is it poised anyway?

Much like following Ferguson at United or Wenger at Arsenal?
		
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I'd argue in one way it is comparable as they all molded their clubs/parties in their image. But on the other hand it is completely different as Ferguson and Wenger has a lot of success.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You’d hope most people of average intelligence are capable of picking the wheat from the chaff, but that also counts for the credibility of certain media outlets.
We know newspapers have their bias based on the owners, but I would expect an institution like the BBC to tread a careful path, call out all sides when they are wrong are factually incorrect and report the facts.
The BBC also have to take a look at themselves and do their utmost to try ensure they are not used as a pawn, the Leeds Hosp and Hancock leading to deleted tweets is an example were they failed to carryout due diligence.
		
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ITV //Peston made the same error.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 14, 2019)

At least Pillock won't be involved.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*You’d hope most people of average intelligence are capable of picking the wheat from the chaff*, but that also counts for the credibility of certain media outlets.
We know newspapers have their bias based on the owners, but I would expect an institution like the BBC to tread a careful path, call out all sides when they are wrong are factually incorrect and report the facts.
The BBC also have to take a look at themselves and do their utmost to try ensure they are not used as a pawn, the Leeds Hosp and Hancock leading to deleted tweets is an example were they failed to carryout due diligence.
		
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I think this is the issue, there is so much wheat and chaff about, a lot of it from peoples newspapers/social media echo chambers, that no mater how intelligent you are it is becoming increasingly difficult to get to the truth of anything.


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think this is the issue, there is so much wheat and chaff about, a lot of it from peoples newspapers/social media echo chambers, that no mater how intelligent you are it is becoming increasingly difficult to get to the truth of anything.
		
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Absolutely.

Just been reading Twitter thread backing Di Abbott to succeed Corbyn.  Genuinely no idea if it’s a spoof


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## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

IanM said:



			Absolutely.

Just been reading Twitter thread backing Di Abbott to succeed Corbyn.  Genuinely no idea if it’s a spoof
		
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Either that or they’ve had too much on a Saturday night!!


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2019)

They better find someone soon as it seems he's got a new job already


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## PNWokingham (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Shame Chuka Umunna (excuse spelling) left the party, he's intelligent and presentable, maybe there's a way back for him.  I didn't like his second referendum obsession but rate him as a potential leader.
		
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and if Laboiur are in the grip of Momentum after leadership changes - Chuka taking the lead at Lib Dems, after finding a seat, could mean LD are the main challenge party for the next election as Labour are in danger of going the route of the dinosaurs!


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## spongebob59 (Dec 15, 2019)

Lisa Nandy has said she's standing, not a prayer of getting it , shame she's be a very credible candidate held her seat in a heavily leave constituency.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

The choice of who becomes Labour leader now and how they perform in any future GE’s could be 2 separate issues if boris fails to perform, all parties peak and trough and enough people have quite clearly stated the choice at this GE was between the lesser of 2 evils.
boris hasn’t suddenly turned in to some great political icon.
His legacy will have to be based on the future as his past is littered with problems.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

Labour's future is in their own hands, nothing much to do with the Conservatives.  They need a complete rebuild otherwise life in the political wilderness will become their self created punishment.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 15, 2019)

Well said C.F. !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206166853120413698


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## spongebob59 (Dec 15, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205986038897876999


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## Kellfire (Dec 15, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			and if Laboiur are in the grip of Momentum after leadership changes - Chuka taking the lead at Lib Dems, after finding a seat, could mean LD are the main challenge party for the next election as Labour are in danger of going the route of the dinosaurs!
		
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The Tories are the party for the dinosaurs, the younger generations favoured Labour.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205986038897876999

Click to expand...

You’re going to have to start putting comments on your links or you’ll have the forum pedant accusing you of lazy posting.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 15, 2019)

Who 's  that then ? they're probably blocked 🚫.😜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

Hopefully over the next few years we’ll see Dan Jarvis come to the front and be in with a chance of becoming leader.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2019)

I think Labour need a good leader ASAP.
To hold Boris to account while Brexit happens.
Jezza needs to go now as he has presided over a very split party and it needs sorting out.


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## larmen (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think Labour need a good leader ASAP
		
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But as the leader of the opposition Jeremy is earning about twice the money of a normal MP, why would he resign that?
Can they challenge him?

I know May can’t be challenged for another few months as she won her challenge fairly recently ;-)


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2019)

larmen said:



			But as the leader of the opposition Jeremy is earning about twice the money of a normal MP, why would he resign that?
Can they challenge him?

I know May can’t be challenged for another few months as she won her challenge fairly recently ;-)
		
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I would hope he would do what’s best for the party.
Not his bank balance.
I think they get a payoff anyway.

What’s May got to do with it.


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would hope he would do what’s *best for the party.*
Not his bank balance.
I think they get a payoff anyway.

What’s May got to do with it.
		
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Had the  'Party' mattered rather than Momentum he'd have gone long ago.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			Had the  'Party' mattered rather than Momentum he'd have gone long ago.
		
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Why? Look at the 2017 GE and what he did! If anything that gave him a mandate to continue.
They’ve got plenty of time to replace him and if they do it too quickly (imo) there’s less chance of dislodging the momentum grip.
Let the arguments go on for a couple of months, let it get worse publicly and then move forward.
He’s gone too quick and 100% of the blame goes on him, yes he’s responsible for a fair share, but other factors need outing as well.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The Tories are the party for the dinosaurs, the younger generations favoured Labour.
		
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another useful comment, thanks


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re going to have to start putting comments on your links or you’ll have the forum pedant accusing you of lazy posting. 

Click to expand...

Always a dig at someone 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think Labour need a good leader ASAP.
To hold Boris to account while Brexit happens.
Jezza needs to go now as he has presided over a very split party and it needs sorting out.
		
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Its difficult to hold a government with an 80 seat majority to account and especialy when the descenters have been purged.


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## Kellfire (Dec 15, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			another useful comment, thanks
		
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Well it’s true, so it suggests that if anything Labour need to be much less progressive and more “dinosaur” like to get in.


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2019)

I hope they get someone with a bit of gravitas and serious knowledge of economics and International Trade/business. I shudder at their contemplation that Rebecca L-B is a possibility.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Well it’s true, so it suggests that if anything Labour need to be much less progressive and more “dinosaur” like to get in.
		
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Dont you have that wrong. Dinosaurs are extinct from not being able to exist in a changing environment, Labour need to learn from those that can.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			I hope they get someone with a bit of gravitas and serious knowledge of economics and International Trade/business. I shudder at their contemplation that Rebecca L-B is a possibility.
		
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But Boris got in and nobody can accuse him of natural gravitas nor is he tarred with serious knowledge of economics and international trade


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## Old Skier (Dec 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Well it’s true, so it suggests that if anything Labour need to be much less progressive and more “dinosaur” like to get in.
		
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Have yo u noticed the age of your leader


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## williamalex1 (Dec 15, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			if they want to appeal to the masses, someone under 60, can head a football or have a kick around with some young scamps on the local field, have a youngish family for those all important Photo Opps... someone who's never done anything that can be dragged up from 30 years ago Oh get themsleves a silly slogan.... and def not a Socialist.. sorted
		
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I don't normally get too involved in political stuff, but IMHO, Labour never had a hope in hell in Scotland from the start, no matter what they promised, except perhaps offering another Indi Ref.
I think their biggest gamble/mistake was assuming that the majority of UK leave voters had changed their minds or wanted another referendum.  
Corbin has no personality and his appearance leaves a lot to be desired.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its difficult to hold a government with an 80 seat majority to account and especialy when the descenters have been purged.
		
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Yes but you still need a presence at Pmqs.
One the country hasn’t  rejected already. Or you know is leaving.


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## Old Skier (Dec 15, 2019)

Interesting and so true. Not for the fainted hearted and NSFW. Live and learn


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## williamalex1 (Dec 15, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting and so true. Not for the fainted hearted and NSFW. Live and learn







Click to expand...

 I explained it a lot quicker in post 164


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			I don't normally get too involved in political stuff, but IMHO, Labour never had a hope in hell in Scotland from the start, no matter what they promised, except perhaps offering another Indi Ref.
I think their biggest gamble/mistake was assuming that the majority of UK leave voters had changed their minds or wanted another referendum. 
*Corbin has no personality and his appearance leaves a lot to be desired.*

Click to expand...

It’s not the X-Factor and we kept getting told it was a choice between  the worst 2 leaders in history.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not the X-Factor and we kept getting told it was a choice between  the worst 2 leaders in history.
		
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Seemingly he can't even sing the Red Flag in tune


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## Fade and Die (Dec 15, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting and so true. Not for the fainted hearted and NSFW. Live and learn







Click to expand...

Goodness me you’d think he was a regular reader of this board! The first half of his rant perfectly described some of the “momentum set” on here. 😁


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## MegaSteve (Dec 15, 2019)

Someone who doesn't have the support of Momentum...


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## USER1999 (Dec 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The Tories are the party for the dinosaurs, the younger generations favoured Labour.
		
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You don't think that may be the youngsters vote was bought by promises of a free education, and a cancelling of student debts? 

Easy to buy votes, tougher to keep them once the relevance of the bribe wears off.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 15, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			You don't think that may be the youngsters vote was bought by promises of a free education, and a cancelling of student debts?

Easy to buy votes, tougher to keep them once the relevance of the bribe wears off.
		
Click to expand...

In the same way the tories have 'purchased' votes on promises of closing the borders limiting immigration... Let's see how that pans out as they continue to fail to deliver on that...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			In the same way the tories have 'purchased' votes on promises of closing the borders limiting immigration... Let's see how that pans out as they continue to fail to deliver on that...
		
Click to expand...

But they havent said that at all.  They have said they want to control immigration by using a points system to allow people with the skills we need to live here.  If you look around the world you will find this same system used by many countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA and so on.  Are these countries failing to deliver to their citizens or is that something only for the UK.   What would you prefer: an open border system that allows anyone in the world free entry, access to welfare, housing, health care, education?  Please tell me because I sure cant understand what kind of system people decrying it would prefer.


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## richart (Dec 15, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But Boris got in and nobody can accuse him of natural gravitas nor is he tarred with serious knowledge of economics and international trade
		
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 You cant fight Boris, with a Boris clone. You need one major leader that has got a clue what is going on.

I have never used the word buffoon so much since Boris became tory leader.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But they havent said that at all.  They have said they want to control immigration by using a points system to allow people with the skills we need to live here.  If you look around the world you will find this same sysyem used by many countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA and so on.  Are these countries failing to deliver to their citizens or is that something only for the UK.   What would you prefer: an open border system that allows anyone in the world free entry, access to welfare, housing, health care, education?  Please tell me because I sure cant understand what kind of system people decrying it would prefer.
		
Click to expand...

It's not what I would prefer that matters... It's the perception that many tory voters have... That they have voted for the floodgates to be closed...


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The Tories are the party for the dinosaurs, the younger generations favoured Labour.
		
Click to expand...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 15, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206268878919217152


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## williamalex1 (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But they havent said that at all.  They have said they want to control immigration by using a points system to allow people with the skills we need to live here.  If you look around the world you will find this same sysyem used by many countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA and so on.  Are these countries failing to deliver to their citizens or is that something only for the UK.   What would you prefer: an open border system that allows anyone in the world free entry, access to welfare, housing, health care, education?  Please tell me because I sure cant understand what kind of system people decrying it would prefer.
		
Click to expand...

I think the biggest problem is with illegal entries.
Sad times , but what can we really do  to prevent illegals coming here and still be decent human beings.
It looks like the smugglers take advantage of these poor people. And just load them into unsafe boats loaded well to over the safety limit.
In the hope of getting halfway across the channel, then maybe get picked up by the coast guard or Navy and taken to safety and granted asylum.
Our benefits system really needs updating,
IF this is really true  seemingly an immigrant here is entitled to more benefits than a disabled military veteran serviceman and more than our basic pensioner receives, and housed quicker.
I shudder to think what benefits I would get, if I had to illegally enter ANY other country.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			It's not what I would prefer that matters... It's the perception that many tory voters have... That they have voted for the floodgates to be closed...
		
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But when thats questioned it needs an answer,  I think the term we hear so much is being held to account.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Well it’s true, so it suggests that if anything Labour need to be much less progressive and more “dinosaur” like to get in.
		
Click to expand...

you go be progressive poppet - that will do me fine


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But Boris got in and nobody can accuse him of natural gravitas nor is he tarred with serious knowledge of economics and international trade
		
Click to expand...

The point is they need to better than the competition..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			I think the biggest problem is with illegal entries.
Sad times , but what can we really do  to prevent illegals coming here and still be decent human beings.
It looks like the smugglers take advantage of these poor people. And just load them into unsafe boats loaded well to over the safety limit.
In the hope of getting halfway across the channel, then maybe get picked up by the coast guard or Navy and taken to safety and granted asylum.
Our benefits system really needs updating,
IF this is really true  seemingly an immigrant here is entitled to more benefits than a disabled military veteran serviceman and more than our basic pensioner receives, and housed quicker.
I shudder to think what benefits I would get, if I had to illegally enter ANY other country.
		
Click to expand...

Illegal immigrants get nothing whilst their status is “illegal” if granted asylum they become eligible to benefits equal to their circumstances.

Unfortunately there is a lot of scaremongering and urban myths out there that cause issues.

We’ve always been able to control our borders to non-eu citizens and no party, absolutely no party has ever said they want an open door policy or uncontrolled immigration, that’s another extreme people like to peddle.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/pensioners-or-refugees/#


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## williamalex1 (Dec 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Illegal immigrants get nothing whilst their status is “illegal” if granted asylum they become eligible to benefits equal to their circumstances.

Unfortunately there is a lot of scaremongering and urban myths out there that cause issues.

We’ve always been able to control our borders to non-eu citizens and no party, absolutely no party has ever said they want an open door policy or uncontrolled immigration, that’s another extreme people like to peddle.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/pensioners-or-refugees/#

Click to expand...

Do you really think there isn't any illegals working here and not paying taxes , and some claiming and receiving benefits fraudulantly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Do you really think there isn't any illegals working here and not paying taxes , and some claiming and receiving benefits fraudulantly.
		
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Probably hundreds if not thousands, but again, they are illegal and committing fraud, to which any government can take the appropriate action.
Not only have the Police been cut by 20,500 since 2010, there has been 60 Police Stations shut and cuts to the UK Border Force.
We should absolutely be clamping down on illegal immigrants and protecting our borders, but to do that you need to fund the resources and ensure if caught we can take appropriate action.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

Anyhow, im not discussing illegals, thats a completely different issue.  I stand by my previous post that we have a choice, no control of immigration or control of it. As I said most countries in the world have some form of immigration control and many use a points based system due to it being the most practical and fairest.
Its no good using the arguement that it wont stop immigration, its not supposed to,  no one with any sense suggests we have a zero policy but one that supplies our needs.

For the record I am not saying people are suggesting an open door policy, thats gross exaggeration, I have merely posed the question: if people dont want a controlled immigration system then do they want an uncontrolled one?  It only requires an answer and explanation but I havent seen one yet.

However, this is getting a bit off the subject of a new labour leader.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 16, 2019)

Seems the Labour war/battle has begun, earlier than i thought. Thought John Mcdonnels apology was sincere, thought Corbyns apology was typically pathetic. Mind you what with me being a stupid Midlands voter, what would I know.


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## Kellfire (Dec 16, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you go be progressive poppet - that will do me fine
		
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You’re one of those kids who doesn’t play well with others.


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## pendodave (Dec 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Anyhow, im not discussing illegals, thats a completely different issue.  I stand by my previous post that we have a choice, no control of immigration or control of it. As I said most countries in the world have some form of immigration control and many use a points based system due to it being the most practical and fairest.
Its no good using the arguement that it wont stop immigration, its not supposed to,  no one with any sense suggests we have a zero policy but one that supplies our needs.

For the record I am not saying people are suggesting an open door policy, thats gross exaggeration, I have merely posed the question: if people dont want a controlled immigration system then do they want an uncontrolled one?  It only requires an answer and explanation but I havent seen one yet.

However, this is getting a bit off the subject of a new labour leader.
		
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Whether we like it or not, I think that having a coherent policy will be one of the most significant actions in making Labour electable. The (ex) core Labour electorate has been affected more significantly than most by the policy of the last 10-15 years.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 16, 2019)

Er isn't this a thread to guess the next LP leader?

IMO. if the LP want to get back to challenging the Tories then Lisa Nandy would be an excellent choice. She's very level headed and although left leaning knows that the LP MUST have more sensible policies to attract the voting public (see what I did there?) back to them.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 16, 2019)

First and foremost the 'top table' needs some balance by getting folk from the 'real world' back around it... Regular folk can struggle with the thoughts/ideas of the academics and political classes that have taken the party away from the people...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Labour's future is in their own hands, nothing much to do with the Conservatives.  They need a complete rebuild otherwise life in the political wilderness will become their self created punishment.
		
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Agreed...

The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in *denial *since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum.  On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom.  Has Labour hit their rock-bottom?  I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is *everything *they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - *that they once were.*

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for *complete *change.  Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't.  They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow.  That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change.  When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO.  So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word.  It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working.  It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover?  Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change.  Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily.  So delighted she is considering standing.


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agreed...

The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in *denial *since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum.  On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom.  Has Labour hit their rock-bottom?  I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is *everything *they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - *that they once were.*

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for *complete *change.  Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't.  They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow.  That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change.  When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO.  So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word.  It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working.  It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover?  Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change.  Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily.  So delighted she is considering standing.
		
Click to expand...

Good grief it must be Christmas and good will to all - I find myself agreeing with you (mostly)


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			IMO. if the LP want to get back to challenging the Tories then Lisa Nandy would be an excellent choice. She's very level headed and although left leaning knows that the LP MUST have more sensible policies to attract the voting public (see what I did there?) back to them.
		
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Radical thought....  

I just searched a few of her interviews.... 40 years old, seems quite sensible, will have to look further.... loved her interview berating for the BBC for insisting she did an interview about "northern economy" in London!"  Hope she understands  there are two sides to an equation!  If so, she has a chance.  Currently left of centre politicos only see "MORE FUNDING" as the solution to any issue.

And, I think SILH has nailed it above..... Merry Christmas indeed!


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agreed...

The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in *denial *since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum.  On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom.  Has Labour hit their rock-bottom?  I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is *everything *they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - *that they once were.*

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for *complete *change.  Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't.  They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow.  That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change.  When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO.  So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word.  It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working.  It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover?  Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change.  Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily.  So delighted she is considering standing.
		
Click to expand...

i don't think its that simple, the political landscape of the UK has changed and not in a good way


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## spongebob59 (Dec 16, 2019)

ET making her move by healing the party 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206542210558287873


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			ET making her move by healing the party 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206542210558287873

Click to expand...

Not a good move to go to Court - wiser to get a retraction or apology over quickly than drag it out for the media to feast upon.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			ET making her move by healing the party 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206542210558287873

Click to expand...

My money would be on Emily, her legal costs would be much lower


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't think its that simple, the political landscape of the UK has changed and not in a good way
		
Click to expand...

I know.  But the Labour Party has to first understand what it has to do to *survive *in the political landscape of today if it is to grow and recover.   I am afraid that politics today seems to be moving to satisfy any individual's feelings of entitlement and wealth...rather than what is for the wider and greater good.  But that is the landscape.

There is a great biblical parable (sorry) about what is required to survive and grow.  There is nothing to be gained from sowing seeds where the soil looks good but is thin and underneath is rock.  The seed will germinate and shoots will grow - it will look good, but the soil is thin and roots cannot penetrate the rock - so first sign of drought the shoots wither and die.  Neither is there any point in sowing where there are weeds, as the weeds will strangle the new shoots. You can weed the soil - but we know how difficult it is to clear weeds - they come back.   You sow where you manage to find deep and good soil - soil that suits your seeds and that will sustain growth of new shoots.  And what isn't in the parable - if you find that the good soil is not what best suits your seeds - you either change your seeds or work on the soil to make it suitable.  You decide which approach is best for you - what change is the *right *thing to do, what you *can *change, and so determine that which is the most sustainable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agreed...

*The Labour Party is like an addict - it has been in denial since the 24th June 2016 - 3 days after the referendum*.  On that date Labour MPs voted 172-40 against Corbyn - they could see what was coming.

How does Labour recover - how does an addict start their recovery? They first have to reach their rock-bottom.  Has Labour hit their rock-bottom?  I think so.

But the addict has then to understand that they can only break their addiction through complete acceptance of the need to change - and understanding that what has to change is *everything *they say and do - and to be able to do that they have to completely change the way they think about themselves; those around them, and the world out there as it impacts them - to become the person they should be - *that they once were.*

It is clear to me that not all in the Labour Party have yet accepted they need for *complete *change.  Like the addict on his way to a relapse, they believe that if they don't pick up or use for a few months, and do and say the right things for a while, then all will be well and they'll be able to drink or use like a normal person - and go back to how they were - just a bit less extreme.

But they won't.  They will gradually go back to their old ways - the ways that led to the disaster in the first place - and new disaster will soon follow.  That is the way of it.

And I give one very simple example, that might seem petty but for me is the sort of thing that is important as a demonstration of a willingness to change.  When I hear Corbyn or his like talking about 'comrades' my head says NO.  So though traditional dyed-in-the-wool Socialist/Marxists would hate it - Labour and it's MPs and supporters can start by dumping the use of that word.  It harks back to past times - these times are gone - it stopped working.  It will never ever again work for those voters Labour need to get back and attract.

How does an addict work on their recovery - how does Labour recover?  Through being Honest, Open and Willing to change.  Completely.

But first Labour has to accept that it is over - the old ways have failed - totally.

And as said a few days ago - Lisa Nandy is, for me, someone I could vote for very easily.  So delighted she is considering standing.
		
Click to expand...

Please explain the 2017 GE result.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't think its that simple, the political landscape of the UK has changed and not in a good way
		
Click to expand...

Yep, the party has to grasp/acknowledge what the people want... Rather than continue to dictate to them what they feel/believe they should have...

Ideology is not the way forward...


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know.  But the Labour Party has to first understand what it has to do to *survive *in the political landscape of today if it is to grow and recover.   I am afraid that politics today seems to be moving to satisfy any individual's feelings of entitlement and wealth...rather than what is for the wider and greater good.  But that is the landscape.

There is a great biblical parable (sorry) about what is required to survive and grow.  There is nothing to be gained from sowing seeds where the soil looks good but is thin and underneath is rock.  The seed will germinate and shoots will grow - it will look good, but the soil is thin and roots cannot penetrate the rock - so first sign of drought the shoots wither and die.  Neither is there any point in sowing where there are weeds, as the weeds will strangle the new shoots. You can weed the soil - but we know how difficult it is to clear weeds - they come back.   You sow where you manage to find deep and good soil - soil that suits your seeds and that will sustain growth of new shoots.  And what isn't in the parable - if you find that the good soil is not what best suits your seeds - you either change your seeds or work on the soil to make it suitable.  You decide which approach is best for you - what change is the *right *thing to do, what you *can *change, and so determine that which is the most sustainable.
		
Click to expand...

I can't say i have much knowledge of the NE other that what Thatcher did to the place back in the 80'sbut have  I have a friend who is a Musician who's from that part of the world, he still tours the UK. judging by the many thousands of his followers on SM, many of them in the NE, the consensus was all about Imigration


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I can't say i have much knowledge of the NE other that what Thatcher did to the place back in the 80'sbut have  I have a friend who is a Musician who's from that part of the world, he still tours the UK. judging by the many thousands of his followers on SM, many of them in the NE, the consensus was all about Imigration
		
Click to expand...

That's pretty much the same impression from my North East born, widely travelled (Kenya, Italy, Argentina to name a few with Oil Engineering father) golfing mate. But he also stated that for most of them it's not the European influx they are 'rebelling' against!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I can't say i have much knowledge of the NE other that what Thatcher did to the place back in the 80'sbut have  I have a friend who is a Musician who's from that part of the world, he still tours the UK. judging by the many thousands of his followers on SM, many of them in the NE, the consensus was all about Imigration
		
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Foxholer said:



			That's pretty much the same impression from my North East born, widely travelled (Kenya, Italy, Argentina to name a few with Oil Engineering father) golfing mate. But he also stated that for most of them it's not the European influx they are 'rebelling' against!
		
Click to expand...

I find that very surprising and does not fit with what I hear locally either in practice or in general media. What immigration influx do we have up here to cause a problem? Possibly in the Middlesborough area, at a stretch, but that is all.

Traditional Labour voters here, based on anecdotal and also many, many tv interviews that I have seen since the election left them because:

They did not trust Corbyn (huge, huge, huge)
They did not believe his giveaway promises (also huge)
They wanted to leave the EU 
Those that voted Remain acccepted that the referendum had to be enacted
They wanted the deadlock in Westminster unlocked and they only saw Labour blocking it
They felt taken for granted 

Immigration has not been raised as a reason, not once. Don't fall for twitter noise, it really is not a good barometer of the mass public.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I find that very surprising and does not fit with what I hear locally either in practice or in general media. What immigration influx do we have up here to cause a problem? Possibly in the Middlesborough area, at a stretch, but that is all.

Traditional Labour voters here, based on anecdotal and also many, many tv interviews that I have seen since the election left them because:

They did not trust Corbyn (huge, huge, huge)
They did not believe his giveaway promises (also huge)
They wanted to leave the EU
Those that voted Remain acccepted that the referendum had to be enacted
They wanted the deadlock in Westminster unlocked and they only saw Labour blocking it
They felt taken for granted

Immigration has not been raised as a reason, not once. Don't fall for twitter noise, it really is not a good barometer of the mass public.
		
Click to expand...

I 75% agree, the other 25% is immigration imo, I’ve had many discussions with locals about immigrations issues up here, again, imo, it is nowhere the issue it is in other parts of the UK, but it is an issue, remember we’ve also had the BNP hold marches in both Newcastle and Sunderland.
The locals are convinced Labour has abandoned them and that goes back to Blair when they believed he failed to correct a lot of the wrongs thatcher had inflicted on them.
I do have many a discussion about the EU with them as well as surprisingly, more EU grants has been spent on them than UK grants.
Yes I know it was our money coming back to us, but the billboards/signs etc are littered with EU flags etc, not the Union flag.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 16, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I 75% agree, the other 25% is immigration imo, I’ve had many discussions with locals about immigrations issues up here, again, imo, it is nowhere the issue it is in other parts of the UK, but it is an issue, remember we’ve also had the BNP hold marches in both Newcastle and Sunderland.
The locals are convinced Labour has abandoned them and that goes back to Blair when they believed he failed to correct a lot of the wrongs thatcher had inflicted on them.
I do have many a discussion about the EU with them as well as surprisingly, more EU grants has been spent on them than UK grants.
Yes I know it was our money coming back to us, but the billboards/signs etc are littered with EU flags etc, not the Union flag.
		
Click to expand...

I totally accept that my part of Northumberland is somewhat cosseted on that front so immigration is not an issue at all here. I do accept it could be in other areas but not to the extent of the other issues I raised. Listening to all of the post election interviews in areas that have turned blue not one raised immigration as an issue. Now I get that people often don't open up about that in public but those other issues raised, plus what you rightly said, are way more at the forefront.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I totally accept that my part of Northumberland is somewhat cosseted on that front so immigration is not an issue at all here. I do accept it could be in other areas but not to the extent of the other issues I raised. Listening to all of the post election interviews in areas that have turned blue not one raised immigration as an issue. Now I get that people often don't open up about that in public but those other issues raised, plus what you rightly said, are way more at the forefront.
		
Click to expand...

The one woman in Leigh (over the NW) stated she voted tory because Wigan gets all the money!! I despair with some of the reasons I’ve heard!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not a good move to go to Court - wiser to get a retraction or apology over quickly than drag it out for the media to feast upon.
		
Click to expand...

Surely it’s the only move? She gave her 24hrs to withdraw the comment or face legal action.
24hrs is up, has to stick to her word.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I find that very surprising and does not fit with what I hear locally either in practice or in general media. What immigration influx do we have up here to cause a problem? Possibly in the Middlesborough area, at a stretch, but that is all.

Traditional Labour voters here, based on anecdotal and also many, many tv interviews that I have seen since the election left them because:

They did not trust Corbyn (huge, huge, huge)
They did not believe his giveaway promises (also huge)
*They wanted to leave the EU*
Those that voted Remain acccepted that the referendum had to be enacted
They wanted the deadlock in Westminster unlocked and they only saw Labour blocking it
They felt taken for granted

Immigration has not been raised as a reason, not once. Don't fall for twitter noise, it really is not a good barometer of the mass public.
		
Click to expand...

not twitter noise, it was his FB page, hundreds of replies across the north Of England, most of the comments were on the Red wall turning tory. 

but also most of the interviews i've seen on the news and CA programs the main reason for leaving the EU that stick to me was freedom of movement


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 16, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely it’s the only move? She gave her 24hrs to withdraw the comment or face legal action.
24hrs is up, has to stick to her word.
		
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That would be a first for a politician!
I just hope Flint has the evidence to back this up after all the complaints about lying in the ref/GE.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 16, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Seems the Labour war/battle has begun, earlier than i thought. Thought John Mcdonnels apology was sincere, thought Corbyns apology was typically pathetic. Mind you what with me being a stupid Midlands voter, what would I know.
		
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Tashyladdie you're almost Scottish


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## Tashyboy (Dec 16, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Tashyladdie you're almost Scottish 

Click to expand...

Och away with you William 😂👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 16, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please explain the 2017 GE result.
		
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@SwingsitlikeHogan Can you have a look at the question I posed? In case you missed it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please explain the 2017 GE result.
		
Click to expand...

The wider electorate perhaps did not know Corbyn on the anti Semitic issue, and they thought that Labour would honour the views of the electorate over Brexit.  The fact is that the MPs clearly saw the car crash coming, but the membership were in denial - and the 2017 result did nothing to change its mind - that just momentarily hid what was coming.  So as my analogy - the close family saw the damage that was coming but the addicts pals were convinced they were OK - that they were coping just fine with life and that everyone loved them despite occasional trips and misdemeanours.

And as for many rock-bottoms - the crash was very painful - not that it was unexpected...by the MPs - hell of a shock for those in denial

The denial can continue after the rock-bottom...and that is where some labour supporters are I think.  They have not accepted the old way no longer works.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The wider electorate did not know Corbyn on the anti Semitic issue, and they thought that Labour would honour the views of the electorate over Brexit.  The fact is that the MPs must have seen the car crash coming, but the membership were in denial.
		
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Or the MP’s didn’t listen to the members who voted him in as Leader, then the MP’s in areas they lost failed to listen to the people in their area.

There are a few reasons why Labour lost this GE, Corbyn himself being one of them, but I’d disagree when it came to MP’s, if anything they failed to carry out what the public wanted and saying the public were in denial is actually the opposite to what’s happened, the public knew/know exactly what they/we want.

If they fail once again to listen to the public, then once again, the public will not back them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Or the MP’s didn’t listen to the members who voted him in as Leader, then the MP’s in areas they lost failed to listen to the people in their area.*

There are a few reasons why Labour lost this GE, Corbyn himself being one of them, but I’d disagree when it came to MP’s, if anything they failed to carry out what the public wanted and saying the public were in denial is actually the opposite to what’s happened, the public knew/know exactly what they/we want.

If they fail once again to listen to the public, then once again, the public will not back them.
		
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I think this is in conflict right now. Momentum and people who bought into Corbyn flooded the membership and effectively took over Labour. They got the leader they wanted, the shadow cabinet they wanted. The voters however, particularly in many solid red areas, did not buy into that and saw through him and his policies. Many MP's tried to tell the leadership of the issues they were having back in their constituencies but they were ignored. What if you have an MP who agree with their constituents, listened to them but the overall party stance had not listened? The MP is then stuffed, as was often shown. This does not apply to all cases but it does to many who were caught up in this.

If the membership are in conflict with the voters a party has real problems.

Chris Bryant was on the tv this morning and spoke very well, MP in S.Wales. He stated that the next leader first of all has to understand why they lost. If they don't accept the real reasons, not the reasons the leadership are peddling, then Labour will go further back next time. He is saying pretty much the same as you, and me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think this is in conflict right now. Momentum and people who bought into Corbyn flooded the membership and effectively took over Labour. They got the leader they wanted, the shadow cabinet they wanted. The voters however, particularly in many solid red areas, did not buy into that and saw through him and his policies. Many MP's tried to tell the leadership of the issues they were having back in their constituencies but they were ignored. What if you have an MP who agree with their constituents, listened to them but the overall party stance had not listened? The MP is then stuffed, as was often shown. This does not apply to all cases but it does to many who were caught up in this.

If the membership are in conflict with the voters a party has real problems.

Chris Bryant was on the tv this morning and spoke very well, MP in S.Wales. He stated that the next leader first of all has to understand why they lost. If they don't accept the real reasons, not the reasons the leadership are peddling, then Labour will go further back next time. He is saying pretty much the same as you, and me.
		
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Agreed, far too simplistic to keep blaming Corbyn, hence my question over the 2017 GE result, lots happened between 2017 and today, to take it back to 2016 is a red herring.

Saw an article last night(I’ll look for it) saying boris’s support from traditional tories actually declined, he only saw a 2% rise in votes over TM (who was described as the worst PM we’ve had) and given the swing from Labour voters in essence it meant he was less popular than her and it’s overshadowed by the amount of seats he won.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Or the MP’s didn’t listen to the members who voted him in as Leader, then the MP’s in areas they lost failed to listen to the people in their area.

There are a few reasons why Labour lost this GE, Corbyn himself being one of them, but I’d disagree when it came to MP’s, if anything they failed to carry out what the public wanted and saying the public were in denial is actually the opposite to what’s happened, the public knew/know exactly what they/we want.

If they fail once again to listen to the public, then once again, the public will not back them.
		
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The public were not in denial...some in the Labour Party I think still are.

But I do not know the answer.

I am by instinct and intent a Labour voter.  That Labour did not have an earthly in my constituency and the LibDems I knew would put up a good show gave me an easy way to solve my problem - I wimped out of making the hard decision.

If I had been in a constituency where Labour has the sitting MP or had a chance of winning the seat I just do not know how I would have voted.  Maybe once the fog of the Brexit War has cleared; the Tories are settled into government, and we have seen a budget or two - then things will become clearer.  Hopefully also in that timescale the look and feel of the Labour Party and of it's Objectives will be clearer.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Agreed, far too simplistic to keep blaming Corbyn, hence my question over the 2017 GE result, lots happened between 2017 and today, to take it back to 2016 is a red herring.

Saw an article last night(I’ll look for it) saying boris’s support from traditional tories actually declined, he only saw a 2% rise in votes over TM (who was described as the worst PM we’ve had) and given the swing from Labour voters in essence it meant he was less popular than her and it’s overshadowed by the amount of seats he won.
		
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It shows how smart his team, Dominic Cummings in particular were then. They targetted Labour seats, key Labour voters, knowing that their own hard core were unlikely to ship over to Corbyn or Swinson. They were helped by the two of them bombing, both parties need to take note for next time. He did not need to grow his own Conservative vote, simply take enough from Labour. Job done. (this might not make sense but it does to me)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Starting to hear a fair bit of reaching out to Andy Burnham...


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The public were not in denial...some in the Labour Party I think still are.

But I do not know the answer.

I am by instinct and intent a Labour voter.  That Labour did not have an earthly in my constituency and the LibDems I knew would put up a good show gave me an easy way to solve my problem - I wimped out of making the hard decision.

If I had been in a constituency where Labour has the sitting MP or had a chance of winning the seat I just do not know how I would have voted.  Maybe once the fog of the Brexit War has cleared; the Tories are settled into government, and we have seen a budget or two - then things will become clearer.  Hopefully also in that timescale the look and feel of the Labour Party and of it's Objectives will be clearer.
		
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i think comments like “we won the argument” suggest there’s still a bit to go before rock bottom.

If you consider the voters to be buyers and the parties to be suppliers, it’s the buyers that tell the suppliers what they would like to buy. Did Labour listen to its buyers, or did their manifesto and Brexit stance run counter to what the buyers wanted? Was the buyer’s message passed up to central office by the grass roots party workers?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Starting to hear a fair bit of reaching out to Andy Burnham...
		
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He has to be an MP first of all. Where is a safe Labour seat for him to stand in now? He may be an option next time around, he is untainted by the current leadership, but I don't see how he fits for this election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			i think comments like “we won the argument” suggest there’s still a bit to go before rock bottom.

If you consider the voters to be buyers and the parties to be suppliers, it’s the buyers that tell the suppliers what they would like to buy. Did Labour listen to its buyers, or did their manifesto and Brexit stance run counter to what the buyers wanted? Was the buyer’s message passed up to central office by the grass roots party workers?
		
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I think Labour _have _hit their rock-bottom - when all seemed OK in the mind of those in denial - until crash, bang, wallop - it's not.  And that is what happended last week.  

Labour are today sunk with many of the electorate - but too many in Labour Party have not accepted that fact as indicated by such as 'we won the argument'; 'it was the right wing media'; 'he never got a fair hearing'.   And if they do not accept that they have hit rock-bottom and need to change - and change more than their leader - and if they continue to find excuses for what has happened and can point the finger elsewhere - then they will not recover and there will be another - usually worse - crash.  

As I suggest- Labour to me are like the addict - many will tell the addict that he has a problem - but the addict in denial will continue his ways thinking they are OK - the addict will be utterly convinced that it is those that have a problem with him who actually have the problems; anything that goes wrong is someone else's fault.  And then crash.  But the addict cannot begins his recovery until he is honest about himself - is honest about his problem - and then starts to identify what it is he has got wrong, that he has to apologise for; and what he has to do to recover.  But first comes acceptance that *he* is the problem - then must come an honest openness and willingness to change.  Not hearing that yet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He has to be an MP first of all. Where is a safe Labour seat for him to stand in now? He may be an option next time around, he is untainted by the current leadership, but I don't see how he fits for this election.
		
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Islington North?

Corbyn standing down would for me be a massive demonstration of a willingness to change - to throw off the old Labour ways and means - to recognise an honest acceptance of failure of leadership and vision.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think Labour _have _hit their rock-bottom - when all seemed OK in the mind of those in denial - until crash, bang, wallop - it's not.  And that is what happended last week. 

Labour are today sunk with many of the electorate - but too many in Labour Party have not accepted that fact as indicated by such as 'we won the argument'; 'it was the right wing media'; 'he never got a fair hearing'.   And if they do not accept that they have hit rock-bottom and need to change - and change more than their leader - and if they continue to find excuses for what has happened and can point the finger elsewhere - then they will not recover and there will be another - usually worse - crash. 

As I suggest- Labour to me are like the addict - many will tell the addict that he has a problem - but the addict in denial will continue his ways thinking they are OK - the addict will be utterly convinced that it is those that have a problem with him who actually have the problems; anything that goes wrong is someone else's fault.  And then crash.  But the addict cannot begins his recovery until he is honest about himself - is honest about his problem - and then starts to identify what it is he has got wrong, that he has to apologise for; and what he has to do to recover.  But first comes acceptance that *he* is the problem - then must come an honest openness and willingness to change.  Not hearing that yet.
		
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Labour is not a single entity, 1 problem isn’t the issue and it’s not a 1 fix problem.
There are parts willing to change, parts willing to shift blame and parts that would vote Labour regardless till the day they die.
If you think simply replacing Corbyn will fix it, you’re very much mistaken.

They need to sort themselves out properly, not knee jerk or try a quick fix or sit and do nothing and hope boris mess’s up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Labour is not a single entity, 1 problem isn’t the issue and it’s not a 1 fix problem.
There are parts willing to change, parts willing to shift blame and parts that would vote Labour regardless till the day they die.
If you think simply replacing Corbyn will fix it, you’re very much mistaken.

They need to sort themselves out properly, not knee jerk or try a quick fix or sit and do nothing and hope boris mess’s up.
		
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All I think about Corbyn standing down as Leader - even standing down as an MP - is that it would show that Labour is willing to absolutely accept failure and why - and start to deal with it in a way that shows a willingness to change even what might have been thought of as unchangeable.  

But as you say it absolutely would not 'fix' Labour - it would simply be an indicator of a willingness to embrace significant change.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Islington North?

Corbyn standing down would for me be a massive demonstration of a willingness to change - to throw off the old Labour ways and means - to recognise an honest acceptance of failure of leadership and vision.
		
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Corbyn wont go for one, he doesn't think he was at fault, but Burnham is a northern bloke and I think he would be best served staying a northern MP. Jumping down to a London seat would not endear him to voters in the north who turned blue. He will have a better chance of connecting with them staying in the NW.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All I think about Corbyn standing down as Leader - even standing down as an MP - is that it would show that Labour is willing to absolutely accept failure and why - and start to deal with it in a way that shows a willingness to change even what might have been thought of as unchangeable. 

But as you say it absolutely would not 'fix' Labour - it would simply be an indicator of a willingness to embrace significant change.
		
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Momentum trucking off and forming its own party leaving an opportunity for a 'proper' Labour party to reform is the way forward...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2019)

Read an article by McDonnell where he says he's sorry and takes responsibility for the failure to win then goes on to say he's only sorry that he failed to convince people that Corbyn was the right man and their manifesto and policy was the right way. He still doesn't get it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Read an article by McDonnell where he says he's sorry and takes responsibility for the failure to win then goes on to say he's only sorry that he failed to convince people that Corbyn was the right man and their manifesto and policy was the right way. He still doesn't get it.
		
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I listened to Corbyn a lot - and it wasn't so much what anyone said about him that stopped me voting for him (though I struggled on the anti-semetism front and really struggled with his Brexit position pre- and post-referendum) - it was that I simply didn't 'get' him; I felt no connection with him whatsoever; and I didn't think he spoke with an authentic and honest voice...

As it happens I had more connection with McDonnell of the sort I utterly lacked with Corbyn...not that I'd want McDonnell as leader either (and he isn't going to be)


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I listened to Corbyn a lot - and it wasn't so much what anyone said about him that stopped me voting for him (though I struggled on the anti-semetism front and really struggled with his Brexit position pre- and post-referendum) - it was that I simply didn't 'get' him; I felt no connection with him whatsoever; and I didn't think he spoke with an authentic and honest voice...

As it happens I had more connection with McDonnell of the sort I utterly lacked with Corbyn...not that I'd want McDonnell as leader either (and he isn't going to be)
		
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They both probably believe passionately in what they stand for, their biggest failure was not making a clear policy statement on Brexit that people could understand and agreeing to a second referendum, that gives the view of them running with the hare and hunting with the hounds.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2019)

I watched Corbyn talk in Parliament today and thought he spoke very well and was fairly magnaminous.


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## pendodave (Dec 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I watched Corbyn talk on Parliament today and thought he spoke very well and was fairly magnaminous.
		
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I know it sounds unlikely, given the character assassination by the media, but I think he's a reasonably decent bloke who's quite thoughtful but just not cut out for the day to day madness of running a major political party. 
Hopefully he takes the opportunity to contribute in public life and enjoy stepping down from the limelight


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

Comment on ITV News "the Conservatives campaigned too hard in the North". By A Labour MP who lost her seat. 
Realit check needed?


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## Beezerk (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			Comment on ITV News "the Conservatives campaigned too hard in the North". By A Labour MP who lost her seat.
Realit check needed?
		
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Surely you mean #FactCheck 🤣


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## PNWokingham (Dec 17, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Momentum trucking off and forming its own party leaving an opportunity for a 'proper' Labour party to reform is the way forward...
		
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People talked about Labour needing to hit rock bottom and some said they had - i think they could go a lot lower until Corbyn goes along with his supporting pack. But it looks like even if Corbyn goes, Momentum and the acolytes/ disciples will still set the agenda - and if so, they can sink much lower and will likely leak members and supporters.  If this happens, the Lib Dems have a golden oportunity to occupy the space and consign Labour to being a fringe Marxist party


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## Dando (Dec 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Comment on ITV News "the Conservatives campaigned too hard in the North". By A Labour MP who lost her seat.
Realit check needed?
		
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Those horrible Tories 😂😂


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			People talked about Labour needing to hit rock bottom and some said they had - i think they could go a lot lower until Corbyn goes along with his supporting pack. But it looks like even if Corbyn goes, Momentum and the acolytes/ disciples will still set the agenda - and if so, they can sink much lower and will likely leak members and supporters.  If this happens, the Lib Dems have a golden oportunity to occupy the space and consign Labour to being a fringe Marxist party
		
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Labour had 480,000 is members, of which 314,000 voted for Corbyn in the leadership election, so its not some fringe minority. so to say they will leak members is a strange one it was his leading the party that increased the membership in the first place. many labour supporters rejoined to follow a more sociaist policies. the public have rejected those, i'm not sure the majority of LM will.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 18, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Labour had 480,000 is members, of which 314,000 voted for Corbyn in the leadership election, so its not some fringe minority. so to say they will leak members is a strange one it was his leading the party that increased the membership in the first place. many labour supporters rejoined to follow a more sociaist policies. the public have rejected those, i'm not sure the majority of LM will.
		
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Come election day it's what the electorate wants that matters not what the party faithful believe they can impose... The balance, of the 'top table' needs restoring between thinkers and doers... If a reconnection, with the electorate, doesn't happen anytime soon it'll be many decades before Labour sees power...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Come election day it's what the electorate wants that matters not what the party faithful believe they can impose... The balance, of the 'top table' needs restoring between thinkers and doers... If a reconnection, with the electorate, doesn't happen anytime soon it'll be many decades before Labour sees power...
		
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It certainly needs reviewing top to bottom, once done it’ll move forward again, the tories will help this by them imploding and boris being found out.
This GE hasn’t suddenly turned the “lesser of two evils” in to a wonderland.

After a difficult 2 years to begin, Corbyn produced a far better result in 2017 than anyone expected, it’s since then they and he failed to capitalise and listen to the electorate.

Corbyn will go, hopefully a left of centre MP will emerge that can unite the support and move forward.

I really don’t see this taking decades.

One thing that must happen is that Labour MP’s have to back whoever is chosen to lead the Party and stop the self destructive behaviour we’ve seen over the last 4 years.

As said previously, there is no single issue that needs to be fixed, there are many, hopefully all will be aired and addressed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It certainly needs reviewing top to bottom, once done it’ll move forward again, the tories will help this by them imploding and boris being found out.
This GE hasn’t suddenly turned the “lesser of two evils” in to a wonderland.

After a difficult 2 years to begin, Corbyn produced a far better result in 2017 than anyone expected, it’s since then they and he failed to capitalise and listen to the electorate.

Corbyn will go, hopefully a left of centre MP will emerge that can unite the support and move forward.

I really don’t see this taking decades.

One thing that must happen is that Labour MP’s have to back whoever is chosen to lead the Party and stop the self destructive behaviour we’ve seen over the last 4 years.

As said previously, there is no single issue that needs to be fixed, there are many, hopefully all will be aired and addressed.
		
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...and they need someone who can face the Labour membership and Unions, and tell it as it is - as Kinnock did with his 'Militant Taxis' speech - but must remember to not go down his 'We're Alright!' nonsense.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It certainly needs reviewing top to bottom, once done it’ll move forward again, the tories will help this by them imploding and boris being found out.
This GE hasn’t suddenly turned the “lesser of two evils” in to a wonderland.

After a difficult 2 years to begin, Corbyn produced a far better result in 2017 than anyone expected, it’s since then they and he failed to capitalise and listen to the electorate.

Corbyn will go, hopefully a left of centre MP will emerge that can unite the support and move forward.

I really don’t see this taking decades.

One thing that must happen is that Labour MP’s have to back whoever is chosen to lead the Party and stop the self destructive behaviour we’ve seen over the last 4 years.

As said previously, there is no single issue that needs to be fixed, there are many, hopefully all will be aired and addressed.
		
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i think you can add the self destructive behaviour of the last 4 days


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2019)

I note R LB and her flat mate are tipped by the bookies. I shudder at the thought of them representing us in talks with China, india, or any other international scenario. Uneducated pair of Corbyn and McConnell  fans/cohorts.

The best Xmas present the PM could with for


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## Grant85 (Dec 18, 2019)

Personally think Labour will be making a big mistake if they don't go for Keir Starmer. 

He's been close enough to the Corbyn leadership to gain support from that wing of the party, but I think will ultimately be a bit more moderate and realistic in policy proposals. Also strikes me as a hugely able individual with a lot of credibility. 

Lisa Nandy may be a credible option - not sure about how able she might be or if people will see her as prime ministerial. 
RLB - not prime ministerial and from what I've seen, doesn't strike me as able enough. 
Hillary Benn - won't have enough support from Left of the party. Likewise Jess Phillips, David Lammy, Yvette Cooper. 

Emily Thornberry may be the most credible woman candidate. 

Timing not right for him, but Sadiq Khan would probably have a good shot at it, were he to stand.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Labour had 480,000 is members, of which 314,000 voted for Corbyn in the leadership election, so its not some fringe minority. so to say they will leak members is a strange one it was his leading the party that increased the membership in the first place. many labour supporters rejoined to follow a more sociaist policies. the public have rejected those, i'm not sure the majority of LM will.
		
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exactly the point i am making - i am not sure they will change as it was momentum and the crtonies who drummed up all the extra support - and if this election is not a wake up call to makle of those 314k then Labour are no more a centrist leaning socialist party but a far left spen-force walking that will die and Lib Dems or someone else will take their place as the main centre oposition


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## MegaSteve (Dec 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			I note R LB and her flat mate are tipped by the bookies. I shudder at the thought of them representing us in talks with China, india, or any other international scenario. Uneducated pair of Corbyn and McConnell  fans/cohorts.

The best Xmas present the PM could with for
		
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There's the thing none of those being touted will be participating in any talks overseas anytime soon... Think we need to stay in the now and keep hoping Boris shows a turn of ability, not previously exhibited, when he represents us in the many important negotiations over the coming months...


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			exactly the point i am making - i am not sure they will change as it was momentum and the crtonies who drummed up all the extra support - and if this election is not a wake up call to makle of those 314k then Labour are no more a centrist leaning socialist party but a far left spen-force walking that will die and Lib Dems or someone else will take their place as the main centre oposition
		
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In terms of Labour voters Momentum membership is a drop in the ocean. The Labour Party need to back voters or support the Marxist fee paying side of the membership . Difficult problem but IMO no current member of the shadow cabinet should stand and Corbyn should immediately resign.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			In terms of Labour voters Momentum membership is a drop in the ocean. The Labour Party need to back voters or support the Marxist fee paying side of the membership . Difficult problem but IMO no current member of the shadow cabinet should stand and Corbyn should immediately resign.
		
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Corbyn should have resigned last Friday morning and it is pathetic that he hasn't and all the excuses he has given - and this will add further negative pressure on the party's popularity the longer it goes on. The in-fighting is well under way but i think the old guard are staying put to try and have a Corbyn crony elected and pursue the same policies - no idea if they will win but similar policies will lead to the party into the political wilderness.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2019)

I disagree with the above posts on one point only, Corbyn resigning immediately.

Just look at the infighting now, it would of been worse if he’d of gone straight away, there’s no rush to get a new Leader in, I’d rather they take their time and get the right one in.

The only people it would of benefitted straight away was the tories.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2019)

They could have gone for an interim leader.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I disagree with the above posts on one point only, Corbyn resigning immediately.

Just look at the infighting now, it would of been worse if he’d of gone straight away, there’s no rush to get a new Leader in, I’d rather they take their time and get the right one in.

The only people it would of benefitted straight away was the tories.
		
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The difficulty they have is that the number 2, Tom Watson, resigned before the election. JC could have resigned, Watson stepped in, all very good. Without Watson there is no one to step in and fill that role so really he has to stay, as you say. 

I expect JC to be relatively quiet during this period. He knows he is done, his power is gone so there will be no announcements from him. He will just keep things ticking over until the new leader and number two is elected.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			They could have gone for an interim leader.
		
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I'm not sure they have someone right now with the respect of all concerned.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 18, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Personally think Labour will be making a big mistake if they don't go for Keir Starmer.

He's been close enough to the Corbyn leadership to gain support from that wing of the party, but I think will ultimately be a bit more moderate and realistic in policy proposals. Also strikes me as a hugely able individual with a lot of credibility.

Lisa Nandy may be a credible option - not sure about how able she might be or if people will see her as prime ministerial.
RLB - not prime ministerial and from what I've seen, doesn't strike me as able enough.
Hillary Benn - won't have enough support from Left of the party. Likewise Jess Phillips, David Lammy, Yvette Cooper.

Emily Thornberry may be the most credible woman candidate.

Timing not right for him, but Sadiq Khan would probably have a good shot at it, were he to stand.
		
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Only Nandy would help Labour out of that useless people listed.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm not sure they have someone right now with the respect of all concerned.
		
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Harriet Harmon did a good job last time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Harriet Harmony did a good job last time.  Is she still an MP?
		
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She is probably the nearest option they have but no one has mentioned her so you have to assume it is not a goer. Maybe her name will come up in January when the Commons re sits. I think Labour are punch drunk at the moment and need Christmas to re-group and clear their heads.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I disagree with the above posts on one point only, Corbyn resigning immediately.

Just look at the infighting now, it would of been worse if he’d of gone straight away, there’s no rush to get a new Leader in, I’d rather they take their time and get the right one in.

The only people it would of benefitted straight away was the tories.
		
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I disagree because it is a continuation of doing the wrong thing. At least if he resigns and even John McDonnell stayed as acting leader just to preside over the leadership change - it least it shows the electorate that the leaders have taken on board what has happened and can stop making excuses and the myriad of labour MPs can stop bemoaning the dreadful job he did and that he should have already stepped down - i.e. in a nutshell, it draws a chapter under Corbyn and focuses attention on the future not the past. I think all the finger pointing and accusations would soften if he stepped down - you never know we may then be treated some fur flying, underhand tactics and lies about a new issue (Labour leadership) as it is becoming boring to keep slating Corbyn as that is yesterday's news!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Personally think Labour will be making a big mistake if they don't go for Keir Starmer. 

He's been close enough to the Corbyn leadership to gain support from that wing of the party, but I think will ultimately be a bit more moderate and realistic in policy proposals. Also strikes me as a hugely able individual with a lot of credibility. 

Lisa Nandy may be a credible option - not sure about how able she might be or if people will see her as prime ministerial. 
RLB - not prime ministerial and from what I've seen, doesn't strike me as able enough. 
Hillary Benn - won't have enough support from Left of the party. Likewise Jess Phillips, David Lammy, Yvette Cooper. 

Emily Thornberry may be the most credible woman candidate. 

Timing not right for him, but Sadiq Khan would probably have a good shot at it, were he to stand.
		
Click to expand...

Starmer has somewhat tainted himself by being a Corbyn front bench supporter and also being one of the leading proponents for a second referendum.  I think none of the current front bench are suitable as they were the second raters who werr pulled in after the Corbyn assisnation failed.


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2019)

I don't think it will Diane Abbott, shes off on her holidays 
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=diane abbott going on holiday&epa=SEARCH_BOX


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			I disagree because it is a continuation of doing the wrong thing. At least if he resigns and even John McDonnell stayed as acting leader just to preside over the leadership change - it least it shows the electorate that the leaders have taken on board what has happened and can stop making excuses and the myriad of labour MPs can stop bemoaning the dreadful job he did and that he should have already stepped down - i.e. in a nutshell, it draws a chapter under Corbyn and focuses attention on the future not the past. I think all the finger pointing and accusations would soften if he stepped down - you never know we may then be treated some fur flying, underhand tactics and lies about a new issue (Labour leadership) as it is becoming boring to keep slating Corbyn as that is yesterday's news!
		
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I get what you’re saying, but I go back to there being no rush, the Party rules to elect a new leader and that’ll begin in Jan.

We don’t have an effective opposition for the time being anyway and that won’t change whether Corbyn is there or not.


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## Grant85 (Dec 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Starmer has somewhat tainted himself by being a Corbyn front bench supporter and also being one of the leading proponents for a second referendum.  I think none of the current front bench are suitable as they were the second raters who werr pulled in after the Corbyn assisnation failed.
		
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I don't think it's going to be that difficult for front benchers to successfully separate themselves from Corbyn. Thornburry already saying she wanted Labour to be more pro-remain and didn't agree they should have gone for an election. I think people will 100% believe that and it will be Corbyn tainted with poor positioning and decision making.


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## Grant85 (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I get what you’re saying, but I go back to there being no rush, the Party rules to elect a new leader and that’ll begin in Jan.

We don’t have an effective opposition for the time being anyway and that won’t change whether Corbyn is there or not.
		
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I'd tend to agree with this Paul. It's not as if Corbyn is squatting in HQ refusing to step down until party conference in September. The process is taking place at a reasonable pace. Were there a deputy, it might have made more sense for him to vacate, but if he did now step down then who would take over leaders duties? 

I think some people are seeing Corbyn's actions as trying to ensure the party follows his policies into the next leadership - but ultimately that is something that will happen during the contest, and I can't see how Corbyn would shape that unless he publicly backs a candidate (which he can do whether leader or not).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I don't think it's going to be that difficult for front benchers to successfully separate themselves from Corbyn. Thornburry already saying she wanted Labour to be more pro-remain and didn't agree they should have gone for an election. I think people will 100% believe that and it will be Corbyn tainted with poor positioning and decision making.
		
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Labour being pro-remain would of been possibly more disastrous, surely backing their supporters who voted Leave would of made more sense, ie, back the will of the people and take the wind out of both the tory party and the brexit party sails.

They could of agreed with getting brexit done with a “better” deal than what boris got etc, played the card that all the current deals agreed so far had been done by tories and highlight their infighting etc.

Instead it was turned on Corbyn and his fence sitting.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Labour being pro-remain would of been possibly more disastrous, surely backing their supporters who voted Leave would of made more sense, ie, back the will of the people and take the wind out of both the tory party and the brexit party sails.

They could of agreed with getting brexit done with a “better” deal than what boris got etc, played the card that all the current deals agreed so far had been done by tories and highlight their infighting etc.

Instead it was turned on Corbyn and his fence sitting.
		
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Not just backing their supporters who voted leave but also carrying through the promise they made after the referendum and when Article 50 was brought in. It is democracy and Jo Swinson has showed what happens when you try to go against that. I highlighted as soon as this policy was brought out that it was confused and would cost Labour badly. I got a couple of sneering posts back from people, not you, that the policy was clear as day but I 100% stand by my comments back then.

I agree with what you post, it would have taken away a key plank of which the Cons beat Labour with throughout the election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Labour being pro-remain would of been possibly more disastrous, surely backing their supporters who voted Leave would of made more sense, ie, back the will of the people and take the wind out of both the tory party and the brexit party sails.

They could of agreed with getting brexit done with a “better” deal than what boris got etc, played the card that all the current deals agreed so far had been done by tories and highlight their infighting etc.

Instead it was turned on Corbyn and his fence sitting.
		
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I think Labour need to take their time understanding what hits the electorate's sweet spots - good and bad.

I like Keir Starmer, but there is no point in putting him in charge _*now *_if his previous Brexit stance would simply continue to drive the wedge between Labour and the electorate.  It might not.  He might be able to strike a conciliatory tone and with humility admit that Labour had stopped listening, and that his view on Brexit was in conflict with much traditional Labour support - and that even although he is fearful for their future...there are things that he and Labour can do that do not depend upon the whims of the markets, and a quite uncertain picture of future trading relationships and outcomes.

[EDIT]  If voters seem willing to put aside the Brexit stance of any Labour politician they rather like - now that Brexit is definitely going to be done - Starmer might be a good choice now.  If they are not, then maybe he just isn't.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think Labour need to take their time understanding what hits the electorate's sweet spots - good and bad.

I like Keir Starmer, but there is no point in putting him in charge _*now *_if his previous Brexit stance would simply continue to drive the wedge between Labour and the electorate.  It might not.  He might be able to strike a conciliatory tone and with humility admit that Labour had stopped listening, and that his view on Brexit was in conflict with much traditional Labour support - and that even although he is fearful for their future...there are things that he and Labour can do that do not depend upon the whims of the markets, and a quite uncertain picture of future trading relationships and outcomes.
		
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Most of the Shadow Cabinet need to go, all talk of Brexit, Remain or Leave needs to drop and move on, it’s happening.

The media will crawl over everything any future Leader has ever said, whoever that is needs to publicly state they got it wrong and it’s a fresh start.

They need to wise up and in the future go after boris, highlight everytime he changes his mind or changes a policy etc,


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 19, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I don't think it's going to be that difficult for front benchers to successfully separate themselves from Corbyn. Thornburry already saying she wanted Labour to be more pro-remain and didn't agree they should have gone for an election. I think people will 100% believe that and it will be Corbyn tainted with poor positioning and
		
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Ok so Thornburry shows that she is a  tactician and has hindsight. Some however, may think that she is there not so much for the wants of the Country( a GE giving the country the opportunity to show its wishes), or for the good of the Labour Party ( a GE giving it the chance to show its policies and get voted in power) , but more so her and fellow MPs can keep the status quo i.e their jobs, and the ability to keep faffing about in HoC , getting nowhere and doing nothing much in getting any action taken , save to frustrate the opposition ad infinitum.
At least Corbyn ( of whom I am not a fan) tried to get a Labour government.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not just backing their supporters who voted leave but also carrying through the promise they made after the referendum and when Article 50 was brought in. It is democracy and Jo Swinson has showed what happens when you try to go against that. I highlighted as soon as this policy was brought out that it was confused and would cost Labour badly. I got a couple of sneering posts back from people, not you, that the policy was clear as day but I 100% stand by my comments back then.

I agree with what you post, it would have taken away a key plank of which the Cons beat Labour with throughout the election.
		
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Mate, I don’t agree with the Art 50 and Referendum promises to a point.

boris made a big play about the HoC’s dithering for 3 1/2yrs, they didn’t, it’s only 12 months since the rest of the HoC’s actually got a say on it, the previous 2 1/2yrs was all tory party, it’s that detail they should of concentrated on, mentioned this is the 4th tory deal etc, tories could of got brexit done 12 months previously....blah blah.

But sadly with the pathetic position they took they failed to get the higher ground.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Most of the Shadow Cabinet need to go, all talk of Brexit, Remain or Leave needs to drop and move on, it’s happening.

The media will crawl over everything any future Leader has ever said, whoever that is needs to publicly state they got it wrong and it’s a fresh start.

They need to wise up and in the future go after boris, highlight everytime he changes his mind or changes a policy etc,
		
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...and so when I hear that Corbyn is going to lay down a 3-line whip on the WA - that all Labour MPs are to vote against it as a 'last stance' - I think - NO.  It's done.  Opposition to the WA is futile and counter-productive.  Just get on with holding Johnson and the conservatives to account. 

I'd also try and elicit (faint hope) some honesty around what leaving with No Deal will actually mean.  Now that the fear some middle-ground Conservatives and commentators might have had about not leaving at all has gone, there is a small opening and time to build a picture...without being anti-Brexit - just concerned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so when I hear that Corbyn is going to lay down a 3-line whip on the WA - that all Labour MPs are to vote against it as a 'last stance' - I think - NO.  It's done.  Opposition to the WA is futile and counter-productive.  Just get on with holding Johnson and the conservatives to account.

I'd also try and elicit (faint hope) some honesty around what leaving with No Deal will actually mean.  Now that the fear some middle-ground Conservatives and commentators might have had about not leaving at all has gone, there is a small opening and time to build a picture...without being anti-Brexit - just concerned.
		
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They have to vote against it, if it goes wrong they can stand there and say “we told you so” and to prevent the old “you agreed with it” that’s politics.

For the next 12-24 months Labour need to sort themselves out whilst being an annoying mozzie in the tory party ears, there’s little else they can do.


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2019)

Thornburry next leader?  The one who has spent most of her career sneering at the working classes.   Oh yes, that will really bring back the masses!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, I don’t agree with the Art 50 and Referendum promises to a point.

boris made a big play about the HoC’s dithering for 3 1/2yrs, they didn’t, it’s only 12 months since the rest of the HoC’s actually got a say on it, the previous 2 1/2yrs was all tory party, it’s that detail they should of concentrated on, mentioned this is the 4th tory deal etc, tories could of got brexit done 12 months previously....blah blah.

But sadly with the pathetic position they took they failed to get the higher ground.
		
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The problem is they ended up just being seen as a party who wanted to block Brexit. Whether accurate or not that is the perception they gave. They became so wrapped up in hammering the govt they lost the bigger picture, ignored what many Labour voters wanted. That was a mistake.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They have to vote against it, if it goes wrong they can stand there and say “we told you so” and to prevent the old “you agreed with it” that’s politics.

For the next 12-24 months Labour need to sort themselves out whilst being an annoying mozzie in the tory party ears, there’s little else they can do.
		
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They can abstain...surely that sends the message that they do not oppose the WA as withdrawal is what the electorate has voted for - but we do not support it as it is.


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## Lazkir (Dec 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			Thornburry next leader?  The one who has spent most of her career sneering at the working classes.   Oh yes, that will really bring back the masses!
		
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You mean like this?


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2019)

I'd  like to think there will be a realisation that 'London' Labour and rUK Labour occupy different 'worlds'. The rather 'fashionable' lefties in London are leading them into a false and divisive view of socialism.  Unfortunately the candidates for the Leadership seem to only surrounded themselves with this bubble of fashionable leftyism, with friends and colleagues who reinforce this arrogant view that the rest of us don't understand socialism. Until they get a leadership team that understands the fans in the 'north' they will struggle to be a national party again. IMO.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They have to vote against it, if it goes wrong they can stand there and say “we told you so” and to prevent the old “you agreed with it” that’s politics.

For the next 12-24 months Labour need to sort themselves out whilst being an annoying mozzie in the tory party ears, there’s little else they can do.
		
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That is a plan .. but remember the Tories backed Blair for the Gulf war in the HoC .. that little detail is completely forgotten.

The point is the "remainers" are a bunch of soft "bail out" merchants who had no conviction in their beliefs, the Tory vote was made up of a supposed large part of the remainers. These people are not remainers, they are Tory voters. 

Corbyn did not lose on his brexit policy, he lost on all the things he did in the past that were so abhorrent to the Tory voters and those who were easily persuaded, the Labour swing areas well perhaps others have a more precise view. 
The Labour regime is too left to be palatable for this country and until they realise this, they will shrink and we will have no opposition. Blair said as much in his own speech several nights ago .. say what you will about Blair but his success makes him credible.

The Lib Dems , I have no idea what the remainers were thinking not voting for the School Mum, this was their opportunity to keep the membership ... so in the end the remainers let go of opportunity and they should accept their consequences and suffer them quietly.

Sorry the Labour party has no one with any credible leadership skills in my opinion, I don't even connect with any of them, I just see young faces and big mouths .. I see no life experience.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 19, 2019)

Lazkir said:



			You mean like this?






Click to expand...

Yeah but that is Rochester .. accept it pillars, England flags and a white van ..are well worth taking the mick out of ... But I don't like her, she doesn't come across as straight and genuine to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			That is a plan .. but remember the Tories backed Blair for the Gulf war in the HoC .. that little detail is completely forgotten.

The point is the "remainers" are a bunch of soft "bail out" merchants who had no conviction in their beliefs, the Tory vote was made up of a supposed large part of the remainers. These people are not remainers, they are Tory voters.

Corbyn did not lose on his brexit policy, he lost on all the things he did in the past that were so abhorrent to the Tory voters and those who were easily persuaded, the Labour swing areas well perhaps others have a more precise view.
The Labour regime is too left to be palatable for this country and until they realise this, they will shrink and we will have no opposition. Blair said as much in his own speech several nights ago .. say what you will about Blair but his success makes him credible.

The Lib Dems , I have no idea what the remainers were thinking not voting for the School Mum, this was their opportunity to keep the membership ... so in the end the remainers let go of opportunity and they should accept their consequences and suffer them quietly.

Sorry the Labour party has no one with any credible leadership skills in my opinion, I don't even connect with any of them, I just see young faces and big mouths .. I see no life experience.
		
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Certainly agree that Labour didn’t lose it on one issue, they need to realise what changed between the 2017 & 2019 GE’s, Corbyn’s past didn’t change, brexit wasn’t the only reason, but it certainly played its part.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 19, 2019)

He dosent look happy, why didn't he just resign ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207626835066007554


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## MegaSteve (Dec 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			He dosent look happy, why didn't he just resign ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207626835066007554

Click to expand...




spongebob59 said:



			He dosent look happy, why didn't he just resign ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207626835066007554

Click to expand...

Wasn't aware having to raise a smile was a prerequisite of attendance...

Without the Beast, in the house, thought it was all a bit flat...


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## spongebob59 (Dec 19, 2019)

Clive Lewis to run 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207642281035087879


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			..... abhorrent to the Tory voters and those who were easily persuaded,
		
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Yes, Corbyn's record on terrorism, terrorist groups and writing prefaces in iffy books sure makes it easy!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207720318091059202


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## Dando (Dec 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207720318091059202

Click to expand...

I’m sure the tories are quaking in their boots 😂🤣


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207720318091059202

Click to expand...

And?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Corbyn did not lose on his brexit policy,
		
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What Brexit policy ?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What Brexit policy ?
		
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His Brexit policy was to negotiate a deal and then put it to the people ... this deal or stay. If you missed that message you were probably too busy being offended about his past actions and a bunch of right wing Israelites claiming he was an anti Semite for disagreeing about the occupation of the West Bank... but that’s what happens when we have an uneven distribution of the media.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207720318091059202

Click to expand...

Wouldn’t bother, he should just retire to the back bench and catch a few zzzz’s, he is wasting his time as are all the labour MP’s. They would be better served working in their constituencies than sitting in the HoC losing every vote going.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			His Brexit policy was to negotiate a deal and then put it to the people ... this deal or stay. If you missed that message you were probably too busy being offended about his past actions and a bunch of right wing Israelites claiming he was an anti Semite for disagreeing about the occupation of the West Bank... but that’s what happens when we have an uneven distribution of the media.
		
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I had no need to be ofended by anything he did or said, I never took anything corbyn said or did serious enough to be offended by it.

Did you think his idea of negotiating a new deal and putting it to the people in a referendum with remain as an option was going to  go down as acceptable in the labour heartlands? Really. Also his 'Honest Broker' sitting on the fence policy just about hit the last nail in the coffin he had so carefully laid himself into.


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## IanM (Dec 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			right wing Israelites claiming he was an anti Semite for disagreeing about the occupation of the West Bank... but that’s what happens when we have an uneven distribution of the media.
		
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Is this the "I can get away with it if I label it "_RIGHT_ wing" defence?" 

I guess you're saying all the stuff about IRA, HAMAS and writing in blatantly anti semetic books was all lies?  Fabricated by the media?   Really??   Corbyn was sufficiently bad for the Chief Rabbi to comment......first time that has ever happened,  and UK Jews are (were?) traditionally massively Labour Voters.....  and of course, Labour share the honour (?) with the BNP on what matter exactly? 

And what the heck is "an Israelite?" 

A fan of Israel?  An Israeli citizen? A Jew?  Ah, I see..... we sussed that earlier...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Is this the "I can get away with it if I label it "_RIGHT_ wing" defence?"

I guess you're saying all the stuff about IRA, HAMAS and writing in blatantly anti semetic books was all lies?  Fabricated by the media?   Really??   Corbyn was sufficiently bad for the Chief Rabbi to comment......first time that has ever happened,  and UK Jews are (were?) traditionally massively Labour Voters.....  and of course, Labour share the honour (?) with the BNP on what matter exactly? 

And what the heck is "an Israelite?"

A fan of Israel?  An Israeli citizen? A Jew?  Ah, I see..... we sussed that earlier...
		
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Maybe the tories could get their act together and be honest about their support for the biggest anti-semite in Europe or actually read what Corbyn said about terrorist groups.

tories sold arms to Saudi that has killed thousands in Yemen, - johnson found liable for his part in it.
Former IRA member elected as a tory councillor.
johnson racist comments.

Ministers sacked by TM for leaking secret information or meeting foreign governments, both brought back by boris!

Maybe people in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones or not believe everything you read in the bias media.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Is this the "I can get away with it if I label it "_RIGHT_ wing" defence?"

I guess you're saying all the stuff about IRA, HAMAS and writing in blatantly anti semetic books was all lies?  Fabricated by the media?   Really??   Corbyn was sufficiently bad for the Chief Rabbi to comment......first time that has ever happened,  and UK Jews are (were?) traditionally massively Labour Voters.....  and of course, Labour share the honour (?) with the BNP on what matter exactly? 

And what the heck is "an Israelite?"

A fan of Israel?  An Israeli citizen? A Jew?  Ah, I see..... we sussed that earlier...
		
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Nope, he was okay in 2017 and all of this had occurred before then ... oh and the rabbi is one of Boris' mates .. but hey ho does it really matter ? the next labour leader will be anti-semetic as well and dare I say he/she will eat babies ... if you cannot except that the media i.e. the newspapers fabricate and selectively quote to push their agendas then your easy pickings. 

Don't get me wrong, JC should stand down and when all of this started to break cover perhaps he should have walked but he survived and made a gain in 2017. 
The real question is what was considered to be the heartlands of Labour turning Tory, I suspect they were voting Labour because they had always done but in truth they were closer to Tory ideals .. The Brexit issue is not the reason for his failure, it was a reasonable strategy for those who took the time to listen. For me I did not want the risk of leaving so I went with the Liberals, but what I don't get is the people who said they were remain and voted Tory...


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## Beezerk (Dec 20, 2019)

Christ, are we really doing a "my leader is less racist than yours" type argument? 🤦


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Christ, are we really doing a "my leader is less racist than yours" type argument? 🤦
		
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Yes, because some of us believe Corbyn isn’t racist as it’s never been shown or proven.
Sadly that can’t be said for johnson.


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## Beezerk (Dec 20, 2019)

Wowzer, crack on then.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Wowzer, crack on then.
		
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no point in my case, Boris has 5 years .. pretending for 20 minutes is bloody difficult


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Wowzer, crack on then.
		
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Thanks for the approval.


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## ger147 (Dec 20, 2019)

Corbyn, his past, his Brexit position etc. etc. is old news. His ship is sunk, I thought this thread was about the next Labour leader???


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## IanM (Dec 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope, he was okay in 2017 ...
		
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  Was he?   Don't think so.   There was plenty of stuff flying around in between the Brexit Stuff.



pauldj42 said:



			Yes, because some of us believe Corbyn isn’t racist as it’s never been shown or proven.
Sadly that can’t be said for johnson.
		
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Not if you ignore the evidence and cases I suppose,


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## Beezerk (Dec 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thanks for the approval.

Click to expand...

Nice edit.
You've changed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Corbyn, his past, his Brexit position etc. etc. is old news. His ship is sunk, I thought this thread was about the next Labour leader???
		
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Unfortunately some can’t help kicking a dog when it’s down.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Nice edit.
You've changed.
		
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No I haven’t, your post was asked answered, you added nothing.


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## ger147 (Dec 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately some can’t help kicking a dog when it’s down.
		
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He's not down, he's out...

So who do you want to see as the next Labour leader?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Was he?   Don't think so.   There was plenty of stuff flying around in between the Brexit Stuff.



Not if you ignore the evidence and cases I suppose,
		
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Please show the evidence that proved Corbyn is a racist?

Weak leader, easily led by momentum, beliefs too far left for my liking, don’t like his stance on dealing with terrorists, but racist, never seen it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

ger147 said:



			He's not down, he's out...

So who do you want to see as the next Labour leader?
		
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I’ve already said I’d like to see Dan Jarvis throw his hat in the ring.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe the tories could get their act together and be honest about their support for the biggest anti-semite in Europe or actually read what Corbyn said about terrorist groups.

tories sold arms to Saudi that has killed thousands in Yemen, - johnson found liable for his part in it.
Former IRA member elected as a tory councillor.
johnson racist comments.

Ministers sacked by TM for leaking secret information or meeting foreign governments, both brought back by boris!

Maybe people in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones or not believe everything you read in the bias media.
		
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Re your point about Tories selling arms to Saudi, We have been selling them arms since the year dot thru governments of all parties, funny you only decry the conservatives..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Re your point about Tories selling arms to Saudi, We have been selling them arms since the year dot thru governments of all parties, funny you only decry the conservatives..
		
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Rather than deflect back on to others, why not address the high court ruling from this year.

https://amp.theguardian.com/law/201...udi-arabia-for-use-in-yemen-declared-unlawful

The argument you continually put forwards seems to be a long the lines of 2 wrong’s make a right.


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## IanM (Dec 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please show the evidence that proved Corbyn is a racist?
		
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What did the EHRC say then?

Clue 2: Preface in which book?  

...I am not doing all your homework for you..


Ah I know.... Jews are all white and wealthy so you can't be racist against them.... you one of those eh?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			What did the EHRC say then?

Clue 2: Preface in which book? 

...I am not doing all your homework for you..


Ah I know.... Jews are all white and wealthy so you can't be racist against them.... you one of those eh?
		
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Wow, ask a question and you get personal, this forum is getting sadder by the day, people unable to debate without getting nasty! Pathetic.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			What did the EHRC say then?

Clue 2: Preface in which book? 

...I am not doing all your homework for you..


Ah I know.... Jews are all white and wealthy so you can't be racist against them.... you one of those eh?
		
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Just get the evidence before the accusations.. or drop it as it’s just turning silly


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2019)

https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true


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## IanM (Dec 20, 2019)

Apologies if too personal...just asking the question.

Gave 2 examples, apparently neither acceptable,  so I won't bother with any others.  

Don't take my word for Corbyn's misdemeanours.... I guess the Jewish Labour members leaving in droves is just a coincidence.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Apologies if too personal...just asking the question.

Gave 2 examples, apparently neither acceptable,  so I won't bother with any others. 

Don't take my word for Corbyn's misdemeanours.... I guess the Jewish Labour members leaving in droves is just a coincidence.
		
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The 2 examples you gave I didn’t answer as your reply was pathetic.

Point 1 - The accusations given by the JLM to the EHRC are at the moment, just that, accusations, the EHRC haven’t yet published their findings and the complaints are against The Labour Party and not Corbyn.

Point 2 - If you are talking about the book first published in 1902 and rereleased in 2011 with Corbyn writing the foreword, he condemned the language in the book towards minorities as absolutely deplorable and stated "What my foreword was doing was analysing the process which led to the First World War, of the wars between empires in Europe - that's what the book was about.

Corbyn was then backed and condemned by Politicians on both sides of the house, 

So, imo opinion neither of your points prove he is a racist.

I do find it funny it’s ok to continually bring up Corbyn’s past when during the GE if any of boris’s possible racist remarks were brought up they were dismissed as old news, misunderstood or taking out of context.

As for the JLM you’ve edited from thousands to droves leaving and I’m personally very sceptical of their motives.

https://mronline.org/2019/04/29/jewish-labour-movement-was-revived-to-deal-with-corbyn/


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true

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Cosmic.  The gift to the Conservatives that just keeps giving.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The 2 examples you gave I didn’t answer as your reply was pathetic.

Point 1 - The accusations given by the JLM to the EHRC are at the moment, just that, accusations, the EHRC haven’t yet published their findings and the complaints are against The Labour Party and not Corbyn.

Point 2 - If you are talking about the book first published in 1902 and rereleased in 2011 with Corbyn writing the foreword, he condemned the language in the book towards minorities as absolutely deplorable and stated "What my foreword was doing was analysing the process which led to the First World War, of the wars between empires in Europe - that's what the book was about.

Corbyn was then backed and condemned by Politicians on both sides of the house,

So, imo opinion neither of your points prove he is a racist.

I do find it funny it’s ok to continually bring up Corbyn’s past when during the GE if any of boris’s possible racist remarks were brought up they were dismissed as old news, misunderstood or taking out of context.

As for the JLM you’ve edited from thousands to droves leaving and I’m personally very sceptical of their motives.

https://mronline.org/2019/04/29/jewish-labour-movement-was-revived-to-deal-with-corbyn/

Click to expand...

You need to look beyond the JLM, that you seem fixited on, if you can, if you can, if you can, if you can. oh well......

635 accusations were made in the first 6 months of this year before the JLM put forward the complaint. And over 1,100 since 2016. But not doubt you’ll continue to be the apologist for the disgraceful behaviour of the far left. You need to have a look at the comment the Beezerk made about you’ve changed your tune... seriously, you ain’t the guy of 3 months ago.

I’m inclined to think that Corbyn is, basically, a nice guy that was promoted way beyond his capabilities. He comes across as a fundimentally nice guy who has been used by the Marxist left.

If you want someone to focus on, focus on McDonnell.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You need to look beyond the JLM, that you seem fixited on, if you can, if you can, if you can, if you can. oh well......

635 accusations were made in the first 6 months of this year before the JLM put forward the complaint. And over 1,100 since 2016. But not doubt you’ll continue to be the apologist for the disgraceful behaviour of the far left. You need to have a look at the comment the Beezerk made about you’ve changed your tune... seriously, you ain’t the guy of 3 months ago.

I’m inclined to think that Corbyn is, basically, a nice guy that was promoted way beyond his capabilities. He comes across as a fundimentally nice guy who has been used by the Marxist left.

If you want someone to focus on, focus on McDonnell.
		
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Another example of playing the poster!

I have never denied Labour has issues with antisemitism, obviously they do, yes I’m sceptical of some of the complaints and of the JLM’s motives.

The post you are answering in response too is me saying Corbyn is not a racist, that’s all, nothing else.

It gets pretty crap on here when some can spout 1 liners add nothing to a discussion and disappear back to the shadows and they are ignored, but defend someone or try to make a point and you’re labelled an apologist or it’s implied that you’re racist.

Well unlucky, I’ve done my research, I’m pleased Corbyn is stepping down and he has not the leadership credentials that were needed, but there is a lot of urban myths out there and I’m sick of it all being one way, plenty of times someone has said something, they’ve been given facts and then ignored the facts.

To this point, imo, Corbyn is not a racist and everyone has avoided answering the question why there are still Jewish Labour MP’s and Jewish members of the Labour Party who support Corbyn and are anti-JLM.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Another example of playing the poster!

I have never denied Labour has issues with antisemitism, obviously they do, yes I’m sceptical of some of the complaints and of the JLM’s motives.

The post you are answering in response too is me saying Corbyn is not a racist, that’s all, nothing else.

It gets pretty crap on here when some can spout 1 liners add nothing to a discussion and disappear back to the shadows and they are ignored, but defend someone or try to make a point and you’re labelled an apologist or it’s implied that you’re racist.

Well unlucky, I’ve done my research, I’m pleased Corbyn is stepping down and he has not the leadership credentials that were needed, but there is a lot of urban myths out there and I’m sick of it all being one way, plenty of times someone has said something, they’ve been given facts and then ignored the facts.

To this point, imo, Corbyn is not a racist and everyone has avoided answering the question why there are still Jewish Labour MP’s and Jewish members of the Labour Party who support Corbyn and are anti-JLM.
		
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Whatever... if you think that justifies your pointed comments in the last few weeks crack on.... I agree with Beezerk, you have changed your tune. You PM’d me a couple of weeks ago re your ongoing spat with SR. You’ve lost it mate, badly.

Whatever you think was a balanced argument a few weeks ago... seriously Paul, you need to look at the trend of your posts.

As for me disappearing into the background, it was on the back of not calling you out. But if you want a full out argument, bring it on.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 20, 2019)

Err time to stop chaps methinks


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Err time to stop chaps methinks
		
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Quite happy to take it to PM or FB messaging but I’m not backing down on this one....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whatever... if you think that justifies your pointed comments in the last few weeks crack on.... I agree with Beezerk, you have changed your tune. You PM’d me a couple of weeks ago re your ongoing spat with SR. You’ve lost it mate, badly.

Whatever you think was a balanced argument a few weeks ago... seriously Paul, you need to look at the trend of your posts.

As for me disappearing into the background, it was on the back of not calling you out. But if you want a full out argument, bring it on.
		
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No ones looking for an argument, and no reason for people to get personal, why can’t other views be respected, nobody is forced to post.
Don’t need yours or anyone else’s support, I’m intelligent enough to make my own mind up, whether you agree or not.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Err time to stop chaps methinks
		
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Seen.👍🏻


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No ones looking for an argument, and no reason for people to get personal, why can’t other views be respected, nobody is forced to post.
Don’t need yours or anyone else’s support, I’m intelligent enough to make my own mind up, whether you agree or not.
		
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It becomes personal when you ask if your personal opinions about whether or not you‘re getting too involved Is justified. You asked me remember... I backed you up as a friend, even though I was sceptical about the direction you were going.

I’m a socialist, like you. And I think Corbyn suffered from bad (biased) press like you. But at the end of the day he’s a very bright guy(Captain) on the bridge of the good ship Labour. 

But this thread is about the next leader. I’d like to think we both want the same thing. But if your version is halfway close to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum, no way on God’s earth am I signing up for that. And if you continue to defend Corbyn’s stance on antisemitism we’ll never ever get close to agreeing. Using the (last minute) JLM issue just ignores 3 whole years of complaints and is denial of a whole 3 years of complaints... really, you want to defend that?

As for the “attacking the poster“ comment... if I disagree with you strongly it might not be attacking you, it might just be strongly disagreeing. Precious(?) note the question mark...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It becomes personal when you ask if your personal opinions about whether or not you‘re getting too involved Is justified. You asked me remember... I backed you up as a friend, even though I was sceptical about the direction you were going.

I’m a socialist, like you. And I think Corbyn suffered from bad (biased) press like you. But at the end of the day he’s a very bright guy(Captain) on the bridge of the good ship Labour.

But this thread is about the next leader. I’d like to think we both want the same thing. But if your version is halfway close to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum, no way on God’s earth am I signing up for that. And if you continue to defend Corbyn’s stance on antisemitism we’ll never ever get close to agreeing. Using the (last minute) JLM issue just ignores 3 whole years of complaints and is denial of a whole 3 years of complaints... really, you want to defend that?

As for the “attacking the poster“ comment... if I disagree with you strongly it might not be attacking you, it might just be strongly disagreeing. Precious(?) note the question mark...

Click to expand...

How many times over the last 3 months (using your timeline) have I made my point over Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum?

For clarification again, Yes, Labour have an issue with anti-semitism, I expect the EHRC to find in favour of the JLM, but I still can’t and won’t ignore the role the JLM is playing and who is funding them, 300,000 Jews approx in the UK, JLM has a membership of just over 1,000 and any Jew supporting Corbyn or calling out the JLM is ignored.

Even today I’ve repeated who I’d like to see as the new Leader, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to sit back and allow tories (who don’t care about Labour) to continually post lies and untruths about Corbyn or anyone else for that matter.

I’ll have a debate with anyone, but some won’t even try and stick to facts. 

I didn’t introduce Corbyn in to the thread today, but no one questions, bar ger, those that did and what their motives are.


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