# Male privilege



## londonlewis (May 24, 2018)

Does it exist?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2018)

I suspect you will get a different answer if you post on Netmums to posting on here.

In some circumstances, definitely, in others definitely not. Go back 10 years or more then privilege was certainly greater. The pendulum is moving though.


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## londonlewis (May 24, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect you will get a different answer if you post on Netmums to posting on here.

In some circumstances, definitely, in others definitely not. Go back 10 years or more then privilege was certainly greater. The pendulum is moving though.
		
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Cheers LT for the response, much appreciated. 

What are the circumstances where male privilege still exists? 
And no longer exists today but did 10 years ago?


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## jusme (May 24, 2018)

I'm more interested in why you want to ask this question, however being a psychologist, I would be. I'll get the popcorn and enjoy the thread


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2018)

its would depend if you went to school at Eton, Harrow or Winchester... in which case yes


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			its would depend if you went to school at *Eaton*, Harrow or Winchester... in which case yes

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Clearly you didn't


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2018)

Depends who you ask, depends on that persons values and depends on circumstances. Plus as noted above there are many other factors involved as for example white working class male kids are not that privileged in many parts of the country. 

I would say yes it does, more so in some areas than others. The playing field is being equalised, but there is a way to go and it will be a long term generational change and not something that will happen over night.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2018)

Yes it most certainly exists but the way to remove it isn't to give women equal pay and positions on executive boards when they're not as qualified or even as willing to seek those jobs in the first place.


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Clearly you didn't    

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didn't say i did troll


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## Jasonr (May 24, 2018)

I too would be very interested as to why you are asking that question but to provide some kind of an answer I think it still does in certain areas but is not as prevalent as it was say 20 odd years ago.

To give you an example (and this is only my subjective experience) it is rife in my Industry (large corporate - large commercial Insurance - the City). It is like regressing to the 1940s set in Ikea. 

I do feel that it is being challenged but it will take a generation or so to really change it. What is very sad is to see some really good youngsters coming through and watch their personality dilute as they try to "fit in" or worse assimilate into the corporate borg.

I think Jusme would have a field day with me!


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## Bunkermagnet (May 24, 2018)

Why are you asking and in what context are we speaking of?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			didn't say i did troll
		
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Oops, sense of humour bypass on your part.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Cheers LT for the response, much appreciated. 

What are the circumstances where male privilege still exists? 
And no longer exists today but did 10 years ago?
		
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In certain industries, many of the professions for example, the senior positions will still be held by older males. There is still a drinking and lads culture there which does not suit women, why should it, and they are at a disadvantage because of it. I am not part of that scene but I know those who are and it still exists. In my own industry, electronics mfr, if you go to a trade show the majority of stands will have men on them, the women are still serving drinks. If you have a woman employee on a stand then she is generally ignored or asked who can help, the assumption being that she will not be capable. A man on the same stand is less likely to be asked that question. I've seen it in action, over and over.

Women from the forum can probably name plenty more, golf clubs, blimey...â€¦..but they are two that immediately spring to mind.

No longer exists - I think in the public sector in particular they are falling backwards over themselves to promote women, whether capable or not. They want to redress the historical imbalance and that can mean people who are not the best candidate are being promoted ahead of more capable male candidates in order for boxes to be ticked. Clearly that happened for decades with women being overlooked but two wrongs do not make a right. 

The atmosphere in the workplace has undoubtedly changed in recent years and many men feel as though they are walking on eggshells. Some had to change, it was sexist and made women uncomfortable, but equally some of the fun of work and chatting with colleagues has gone as people are so wary about what can and can not be said.


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## IanM (May 24, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			its would depend if you went to school at Eton, Harrow or Winchester... in which case yes

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But what if you went to Cheltenham, Roedean or Godolphin?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2018)

IanM said:



			But what if you went to Cheltenham, Roedean or Godolphin?
		
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Careful Ian, you might get accused of trolling!!


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2018)

IanM said:



			But what if you went to Cheltenham, Roedean or Godolphin?
		
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maybe but not in the same number id imagine. Google ex Etonians for instance , surprising how many are in top jobs or top s of certain professions


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## pinberry (May 24, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			but equally some of the fun of work and chatting with colleagues has gone as people are so wary about what can and can not be said.
		
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It might have been fun for the us males, but whether women enjoy this particular type of bantering is an open question...


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Oops, sense of humour bypass on your part.
		
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picking fault with Spelling and grammer with isn't having sense of humor...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			picking fault with Spelling and grammer with isn't having sense of humor...
		
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and we'll say you missed the winking emoji.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2018)

pinberry said:



			It might have been fun for the us males, but whether women enjoy this particular type of bantering is an open question...
		
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I think it depends on what the bantering is about. If it is about women with big chests then I agree. If it is a joke about football that involves a swear word then I disagree. The workplace has become much more beige. What 'offends' has become far too wide in terms of parameters.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			its would depend if you went to school at Eton, Harrow or Winchester... in which case yes

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That is plain privilege, not just male privilege.


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## patricks148 (May 24, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is plain privilege, not just male privilege.
		
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these are all male schools though


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## User20205 (May 24, 2018)

It does exist. Weâ€™re all guilty to a degree. Itâ€™s not really about the school, thatâ€™s maybe privilege full stop. Itâ€™s about a type of behaviour, a sense of entitlement that comes with cultural â€˜normsâ€™. I couldnâ€™t even acknowledge it as Iâ€™m not objective, but it would be a useful exercise, if possible, to body swap with someone else to fully appreciate it.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think it depends on what the bantering is about. If it is about women with big chests then I agree. If it is a joke about football that involves a swear word then I disagree. *The workplace has become much more beige*. *What 'offends' has become far too wide in terms of parameters*.
		
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Could you please say 'it's political correctness gone mad' as I have a forum bingo card regarding threads like this one.  And that's one I was expecting to cross off pretty quickly


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## londonlewis (May 24, 2018)

jusme said:



			I'm more interested in why you want to ask this question, however being a psychologist, I would be. I'll get the popcorn and enjoy the thread
		
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Mainly because I'm interested in people's views on it. And also because I am currently not convinced it really exists (in the Western developed world). But open to having my mind changed.

So far it seems to be based on company cultures (drinking culture was the example) and job choices made by women vs men (women serve the drinks was the example). 

Maybe it's important to agree what privilege is first; 
dictionary defines it as; a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

I'm not sure if job choices made by men vs women would classify as privilege unless a group were being prevented from getting jobs. 
Certainly open to hearing everyone's views.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			these are all male schools though

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They are but they are for the rich alone. The privilege does not end with gender.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Mainly because I'm interested in people's views on it. And also because I am currently not convinced it really exists (in the Western developed world). But open to having my mind changed.
		
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I think it does exist but to nowhere near the level that trendy, liberal go-gooders would have us believe.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could you please say 'it's political correctness gone mad' as I have a forum bingo card regarding threads like this one.  And that's one I was expecting to cross off pretty quickly 

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Ha ha. I left my white van at home today. I thought I dodged the phrase very nicely.


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## londonlewis (May 24, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I think it does exist but to nowhere near the level that trendy, liberal go-gooders would have us believe.
		
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Where does it exist though? 
What privilege do men have, that women are excluded from?


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## IanM (May 24, 2018)

Western Secular Society might not be the best place to look! 

(oh gosh, I've said it!)


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2018)

Asking a golf forum (primarily middle to upper-middle class white men) if they believe in male privilege is a loaded gun in the first place!


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2018)

Any posts that contain sexist comments or swearing will be removed and further infractions issued.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2018)

On this someone once said to me - It's the Ladies privilege to go through the door before the Gent; however it is the Gentleman's prerogative to hold the door open and make the offer.  Or something like that.

I'm struggling to think of any aspect of life where I have more privilege than my wife.

That said - I've heard say that Men in RoI should feel very privileged to have been given a vote in the RoI abortion referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Does it exist?
		
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Certainly 100% in certain cultures.


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## TheDiablo (May 24, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I think it does exist but to nowhere near the level that trendy, liberal go-gooders would have us believe.
		
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I think this is probably spot on. (I'm a not very trendy but slightly liberal do gooder)


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## londonlewis (May 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Certainly 100% in certain cultures.
		
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I absolutely agree. The middle-east is an excellent example. Terrible subject, but if a woman is raped in large areas of the middle-east, she has committed a crime. But the rapist hasn't. Now that *is *male privilege.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			I absolutely agree. The middle-east is an excellent example. Terrible subject, but if a woman is raped in large areas of the middle-east, she has committed a crime. But the rapist hasn't. Now that *is *male privilege.
		
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Though I think your question was most probably in the context of 'traditional' UK cultures, recognising that there are 'unfortunate' (IMO and being non-adversarial about it) male behaviours in some ethnic minority cultures in the UK


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## IanM (May 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I think your question was most probably in the context of 'traditional' UK cultures, recognising that there are 'unfortunate' (IMO and being non-adversarial about it) male behaviours in some ethnic minority cultures in the UK
		
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You are so scared of the repercussions, you use words like _unfortunate_ in inverted commas and apologise for mentioning it!


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## Dasit (May 24, 2018)

If male privilege exists in some areas of our culture, female privilege also exists. Who has the more privilege I would think is hard to know.



In the main we are very different, with a small minority of people blurred between the two sexes.


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## londonlewis (May 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I think your question was most probably in the context of 'traditional' UK cultures, recognising that there are 'unfortunate' (IMO and being non-adversarial about it) male behaviours in some ethnic minority cultures in the UK
		
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My initial question was absolutely aimed at Western developed cultures. That's where I am struggling to see the inequalities. And really hoping that someone can help me see real evidence of privilege. 

I'd hope that everyone could agree that male privilege exists in other countries around the world, like the middle-east. 

I tend to find the common comment (not on here so far, but when it comes up in conversation) is 'it exists everywhere in society'. Ok, where? 
Another common one is the gender pay gap. But I am struggling to find any economist who agress with how the reports have been made.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 24, 2018)

I think "sexism" and "lack of equality" is being mixed up with privelege. Someone I consider priveleged is someone born with the silver spoon in their mouth, and who gets on in life because of who or what they are. Lack of equality is what stops women from getting the same pay for the same job or getting the higher promotion.
However I do also feel that the PC brigade have overdone things.


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## DRW (May 24, 2018)

I didn't even know what the term Male privilege meant, so had to google it and found this :-

https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/02/160-examples-of-male-privilege/

Whilst I don't agree with some of these, certainly I can see the point of some of them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2018)

IanM said:



			You are so scared of the repercussions, you use words like _unfortunate_ in inverted commas and apologise for mentioning it!
		
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Scared of the repercussions???  'Unfortunate' was in quotes - might suggest I was suggesting a little more then actually unfortunate.  And as I stated I was deliberately trying to not be adversarial by avoiding implying anything general about ethnic-minority communities - because male privilege issues do not exist in all ethnic-minority communities. Yet you still choose to have a go at me


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## Hobbit (May 24, 2018)

I posed this question to HID last year, and truly horrified by the list she trotted out. Very little of it which I could question. The article in post #42 is well worth a read.

HID used to travel a lot with work. A privilege she hated was men can go for a meal and a beer and not be pestered, woman rarely can without some sickly comment from some beer fuelled idiot who often took offence from being rejected.


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## bobmac (May 24, 2018)

I'm fairly sure there are still some jobs in the church that are men only


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## jusme (May 24, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			My initial question was absolutely aimed at Western developed cultures. That's where I am struggling to see the inequalities. And really hoping that someone can help me see real evidence of privilege. 

I'd hope that everyone could agree that male privilege exists in other countries around the world, like the middle-east. 

I tend to find the common comment (not on here so far, but when it comes up in conversation) is 'it exists everywhere in society'. Ok, where? 
Another common one is the gender pay gap. But I am struggling to find any economist who agress with how the reports have been made.
		
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Ok....I will bite (but I'm skeptical of your motives) given an interest in the field. The evidence on gender pay gaps is pretty unambiguous (even allowing for research bias) so I'm struggling to see why you can't see this. The reasons for such is more complex and largely influenced by time out for children. Is this evidence of Male privilege? That's a different argument


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## Papas1982 (May 24, 2018)

jusme said:



			Ok....I will bite (but I'm skeptical of your motives) given an interest in the field. The evidence on gender pay gaps is pretty unambiguous (even allowing for research bias) so I'm struggling to see why you can't see this. The reasons for such is more complex and largely influenced by time out for children. Is this evidence of *Male privilege? That's a different argument*

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Is that not the point though? I think most would agree that it can be shown men in some circumstances earn more, but it's not due to some sort of privilege. Just a way of life. It would be the same now if the dad took paternal leave and the mum went back to work early. A business can't imo be expected to hold of promotions to male staff in case a female one comes back.....

May men have a better opportunity, but not privilege.


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## User20205 (May 24, 2018)

â€˜Better opportunity but not privilegeâ€™ ??? 
If opportunity is down to gender  alone then surely that is the definition of male privilege??
There are some underlying reasons, but it canâ€™t be denied that male privilege exists. There are things I do without thinking that wouldnâ€™t be possible, or would be difficult, if I was female.


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## Tashyboy (May 24, 2018)

Think Male privilege is like Aliens. Might not have personally seen them but there both there. Seen a few women work in the coal industry and quiet frankly they were put in as a token gesture and not taken seriously. But they should of been. They all had something to offer. 
One who was junior management was asked to do special project one bank holiday Monday. She had booked to go away. The project was cancelled the Monday morning when she arrived  at work. The project, babysit the managers kids.


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## Papas1982 (May 24, 2018)

therod said:



			â€˜Better opportunity but not privilegeâ€™ ??? 
If opportunity is down to gender  alone then surely that is the definition of male privilege??
There are some underlying reasons, but it canâ€™t be denied that male privilege exists. There are things I do without thinking that wouldnâ€™t be possible, or would be difficult, if I was female.
		
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Ok, even though I think you totally missed the point as I clearly stated men could miss out if they took paternity leave. 

Answer me this, What about the women who donâ€™t have children, if they succeed are they taken advantage of (non mum privilege)?


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## User20205 (May 24, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Ok, even though I think you totally missed the point as I clearly stated men could miss out if they took paternity leave. 

Answer me this, What about the women who donâ€™t have children, if they succeed are they taken advantage of (non mum privilege)?
		
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Itâ€™s not me thatâ€™s missing the point. Individual cases donâ€™t illustrate the rule. However your example highlights the issue. Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men donâ€™t...aka male privilege 

Itâ€™s irrelevant what you & I think, weâ€™re immersed in male privilege. Read the article in post 42. You wonâ€™t agree & I expect youâ€™ll dismiss all the points but itâ€™s a subjective argument & weâ€™re on the wrong side of the divide.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 24, 2018)

therod said:



			Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men donâ€™t...aka male privilege
		
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Women dont have to choose, they "balance" the needs of children and work. My wife has managed this with aplomb.
And talking about family, why is it its assumed that the women are looking after the children?. As a young dad, I can still remember that uncomfortable feeling of waiting at the school gates for my duaghters when they were young, and of being ignored by other mums because dads didnt do or know anything about their kids.
It's not just men who have stereotypical views on the sexes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I'm fairly sure there are still some jobs in the church that are men only
		
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Which church?  It's perhaps best to not be generalistic about _the church _as all denominations are different and there are huge differences between some.

As it happens in my denomination there are no jobs that are men only.  We are not all as stuck in the past as some might imagine


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I posed this question to HID last year, and truly horrified by the list she trotted out. Very little of it which I could question. The article in post #42 is well worth a read.

HID used to travel a lot with work. A privilege she hated was men can go for a meal and a beer and not be pestered, woman rarely can without some sickly comment from some beer fuelled idiot who often took offence from being rejected.
		
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Good point - I suspect that if we think on 'male privilege' in this way then we can come up with many such examples - though whether they are 'male privilege' or discrimination against females might be debatable.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2018)

We have developed certain traits that work against the natural instincts of life.  If we accept that humans are a form of animal and as such have no supreme being  shaping their existence then it would be reasonable to accept the natural way of animal species is for the male to adopt a dominant role in the family/society. The male is physically stronger  and as such dominant in most other social groups. As Humans we consider ourselves able to develop social traits that contradict the natural order and we have indeed been fairly successful in this but in doing so we create social stresses that have adverse affects on our instincts.   We can see clearly in our societies where the natural family unit has the male removed it tends to create many troubled children who become social outcasts due to lack of male role models.

In our modern western society we are beginning to reap what we have sown.    Of course I may be completely wrong and no doubt those that believe the human race is unique in it's ability to form unnatural social structures will rage against this way of thinking.


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## User20205 (May 24, 2018)

itâ€™s possible to get sidetracked by obvious biological differences between genders, no one can really deny those differences exist. 
Itâ€™s more about entitlement, or perceived entitlement. 
Could the Weinstein situation have occurred without male privilege? Is there a female equivalent to a Weinstein?


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## Lazkir (May 25, 2018)

It's an intangible thing. The fact that I'm a white male is meaningless to me because I've gone through life just 'being' who I am.
I don't doubt for a second that I've been treated differently to a female of the same age/wealth/intelligence etc. But I've not really noticed it, how could I?
If I had, I'd like to think I would pull people up on it. But I genuinely  can't remember being aware of a single episode of it happening in my presence.

As a father of two daughters I want the best for my girls, and I've been pulled up by them once or twice for saying things like 'you threw that like a girl'.
Now to me that was just an observation, but to them that was an insult. I'd never seen it like that until they pointed it out to me. (Girls do tend to throw in a different way to men imo. Happy to be corrected).

Male privilege is a result of  thousands of years of patriarchal upbringing. It's insidious and all pervasive. I for one am happy to see it disappear. I have a healthy respect not only for the women in my life but for all women, everywhere. 
But I also agree that 'quotas' that force women into positions for the sake of 'balance' is actually a bad thing in the general scheme of things.

Edit: Bit drunk, sorry for the ramble...


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## bobmac (May 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which church?  It's perhaps best to not be generalistic about _the church _as all denominations are different and there are huge differences between some.
		
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I'm well aware of that and because I can't be bothered to examine them all and to list them all, I i just went with 'the' church.

Do you deny there are some men only jobs in the church, any church?

Beats me why there has to be so many denominations


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## Capella (May 25, 2018)

I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me. 

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit clichÃ©, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions. 

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that). 

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.


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## londonlewis (May 25, 2018)

jusme said:



			Ok....I will bite (but I'm skeptical of your motives) given an interest in the field. The evidence on gender pay gaps is pretty unambiguous (even allowing for research bias) so I'm struggling to see why you can't see this. The reasons for such is more complex and largely influenced by time out for children. Is this evidence of Male privilege? That's a different argument
		
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The evidence is pretty unambiguous? I really don't think it is though. 
The method used to compile the data was to find the median value. That's why no serious economist is prepared to say they back the report. That's a pretty fundemental flaw, isn't it? No expert will put their name to it! 

Also the report showed that women who are under 35 and do not have children out-earn men. 
Which suggests that there isn't a male privilege, but actually a penalty for being female with children. Is this down to the choices that mothers make, rather than some bias that companies have against women? 

Surely if companies could pay women less for doing the exact same job, a company would choose to exclusively hire women. Wouldn't they? To improve the bottom line. 

It's not difficult to find flaws in the method used to compile the gender pay gap report. For example, look at the median wages earned in football. The gap is huge. No matter what you look at. Whether it is comparing the wages of the male footballers at a club vs female footballers or whether it is comparing wages of women who work for a football club but aren't footballers (i.e. work on turnstiles, in the corporate boxes etc...). 

Maybe we should address the inequality for male models? (I know this is true as of approx 3 years ago, but don't know if it is still true) Cindy Crawford was the highest paid model in the 90s (I think it was 1992). No male model has ever earned more than she did that year. 

The thing I am struggling with most is whether the commitments made (by companies, the government etc...) will actually tackle the issue. The issue, evidenced by the report, starts when women have children.


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## londonlewis (May 25, 2018)

therod said:



			Itâ€™s not me thatâ€™s missing the point. Individual cases donâ€™t illustrate the rule. However your example highlights the issue. Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men donâ€™t...aka male privilege 

Itâ€™s irrelevant what you & I think, weâ€™re immersed in male privilege. Read the article in post 42. You wonâ€™t agree & I expect youâ€™ll dismiss all the points but itâ€™s a subjective argument & weâ€™re on the wrong side of the divide.
		
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If what I think is irrelevant purely because I am a man, wouldn't that be female privilege?


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## londonlewis (May 25, 2018)

Capella said:



			I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me. 

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit clichÃ©, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions. 

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that). 

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.
		
Click to expand...

Really good insight around work & childhood. Thanks.


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## User20205 (May 25, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			If what I think is irrelevant purely because I am a man, wouldn't that be female privilege?
		
Click to expand...

Not really mate. It a bit like asking UKIP if racism exists in the UK. Youâ€™ve got to be on the wrong side of the divide to establish its existence. How can we really comment on male privilege when we are immersed in it?


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## londonlewis (May 25, 2018)

therod said:



			Not really mate. It a bit like asking UKIP if racism exists in the UK. Youâ€™ve got to be on the wrong side of the divide to establish its existence. How can we really comment on male privilege when we are immersed in it?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I follow the logic. 
I can't comment on male privilege because I am not a woman. Does that mean I can't comment on professional football, because I'm not a footballer?


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## Capella (May 25, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Not sure I follow the logic. 
I can't comment on male privilege because I am not a woman. Does that mean I can't comment on professional football, because I'm not a footballer?
		
Click to expand...

Of course you can. Millions of men (and quite a few women) comment on football all the time. Just go to the next pub during a game. Everyone is an expert. But I guess that most footballers would just roll their eyes and politely smile through the gag reflex at the comments.


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## User20205 (May 25, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Not sure I follow the logic. 
I can't comment on male privilege because I am not a woman. Does that mean I can't comment on professional football, because I'm not a footballer?
		
Click to expand...

Logic being...how can you acknowledge itâ€™s existence or otherwise if you havenâ€™t suffered as a result of it. You can have an opinion on football, but unless youâ€™ve played it you canâ€™t talk with authority.IMO. Otherwise why arenâ€™t the fellas from the â€˜weâ€™re off threadâ€™ on sky?? Because they spout blinkered uninformed nonsense. 
Why do you care about male privilege anyway? You started the thread?


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## londonlewis (May 25, 2018)

therod said:



			Logic being...how can you acknowledge itâ€™s existence or otherwise if you havenâ€™t suffered as a result of it. You can have an opinion on football, but unless youâ€™ve played it you canâ€™t talk with authority.IMO. Otherwise why arenâ€™t the fellas from the â€˜weâ€™re off threadâ€™ on sky?? Because they spout blinkered uninformed nonsense. 
Why do you care about male privilege anyway? You started the thread?
		
Click to expand...

Remind me, what football team did John Motson play for?


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## Orikoru (May 25, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Remind me, what football team did John Motson play for?
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't really express opinions on football he just describes what is happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I'm well aware of that and because I can't be bothered to examine them all and to list them all, I i just went with 'the' church.

Do you deny there are some men only jobs in the church, any church?

Beats me why there has to be so many denominations 

Click to expand...

Not denying for one moment - though my understanding of the way other denominations are organised is very limited so I am not sure where there migt be men-only jobs.

And as you asked - the reason there are so many denominations is simply because we Christians can take different views on what is actually important in respect of what is written in the Bible and in practicing our believe and faith.  Hence Martin Luther; his 95 Theses, and The Reformation 

And so it came to pass that in the URC there is no male privilege whatsoever of which I am aware - and that is 'a very good thing'


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## londonlewis (May 25, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			He doesn't really express opinions on football he just describes what is happening.
		
Click to expand...

Fair comment.


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## User20205 (May 25, 2018)

londonlewis said:



			Fair comment.
		
Click to expand...

 Iâ€™m not being difficult, maybe just devils advocate. We (I) have maybe benefitted from this, I donâ€™t think we can talk with great authority on it.
I donâ€™t have to question what I wear or where I go for fear of unwanted attention/comments, no one ever tells me to â€˜smile more luvâ€™. Iâ€™ve no idea what thatâ€™s like, can you honestly say you do?

Male privilege for me is the ability to go into a pub and not get hassled as Iâ€™m by myself. Or wear shorts without anyone thinking Iâ€™m up for it. 
Most normal fellas donâ€™t indulge in behaviour that this alludes to but a significant minority do.


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## Junior (May 25, 2018)

Capella said:



			I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me. 

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit clichÃ©, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions. 

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that). 

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. *We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.*

Click to expand...

Great post, Well said :clap:


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## bobmac (May 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not denying for one moment - though my understanding of the way other denominations are organised is very limited so I am not sure where there migt be men-only jobs.

And as you asked - the reason there are so many denominations is simply because we Christians can take different views on what is actually important in respect of what is written in the Bible and in practicing our believe and faith.  Hence Martin Luther; his 95 Theses, and The Reformation 

And so it came to pass that in the URC there is no male privilege whatsoever of which I am aware - and that is 'a very good thing'
		
Click to expand...

Tempting but I'd only get told off.
I'm out


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## londonlewis (May 25, 2018)

therod said:



			Iâ€™m not being difficult, maybe just devils advocate. We (I) have maybe benefitted from this, I donâ€™t think we can talk with great authority on it.
I donâ€™t have to question what I wear or where I go for fear of unwanted attention/comments, no one ever tells me to â€˜smile more luvâ€™. Iâ€™ve no idea what thatâ€™s like, can you honestly say you do?

Male privilege for me is the ability to go into a pub and not get hassled as Iâ€™m by myself. Or wear shorts without anyone thinking Iâ€™m up for it. 
Most normal fellas donâ€™t indulge in behaviour that this alludes to but a significant minority do.
		
Click to expand...

I think this has been a pretty civil thread therod, with some good food for thought. I certainly haven't felt you (or anyone) was being difficult. So no complaints from me. 

This is genuine; I've been working at the same company for 6 years and people have commented on my clothes (work and civilian for dress down on Fridays) for the whole 6 years I have been here. And the comments are not complimentary. It has never and will never faze me. So yes, in this regard I absolutely can say I know what it is like. 

The other points; no. Not really. 

On the flip side; I've never been let into a nightclub for free, had a drink bought for me or had my dinner paid for on a date. 
But I really think all of these are minor, non-consequential points. 

Key issues would be things like; 
- male suicide rates 
- length of prison sentences for males vs females when the same crime is committed 
- healthcare spending on men vs women


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Tempting but I'd only get told off.
I'm out
		
Click to expand...

You asked and I answered - so I don't see your issue - but whatever.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2018)

therod said:



			Itâ€™s not me thatâ€™s missing the point. Individual cases donâ€™t illustrate the rule. However your example highlights the issue. Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men donâ€™t...aka male privilege 

Itâ€™s irrelevant what you & I think, weâ€™re immersed in male privilege. Read the article in post 42. You wonâ€™t agree & I expect youâ€™ll dismiss all the points but itâ€™s a subjective argument & weâ€™re on the wrong side of the divide.
		
Click to expand...

I read the link, I think some are valid and some are complete nonsense. But the. I think women on occasion will take advantage of men just as equally as is suggested with male privilege. 

Imo some of the real issue that have been mentioned since, about lewd comments on dressing up (shirt skirt, sheâ€™s up for it) doesnâ€™t prove male privilege, it just proves some men are deplorable.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2018)

Capella said:



			I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me. 

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit clichÃ©, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions. 

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that). 

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant post.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 26, 2018)

Clearly different people have different views on what equates to male privilege.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 26, 2018)

how Do you define privilege, to me a privilege is something you are granted , over and above another person.

Many things that are seen as privileges are simply the result of generations of traditional gender roles which are gradually becoming less defined as time passes.
For instance it used to be that the women stayed home to look after the kids, the man went to work (gender roles) . But then the man would often go to the pub with his mates, while the woman stayed home ( privilege).(simplistic illustration).

So regarding modern male privilege, what can I do that my wife canâ€™t do ( if she wanted to), Iâ€™m struggling to find anything tbh. I have 3 daughters aged 24.22 & 20 and they all recognise the opportunities open to them are so much greater than when their mum was their age, they do not feel inferior to men in any way.

Thatâ€™s not to say that there arenâ€™t inequalities that need addressing regarding pay, casual and overt sexism etc but Iâ€™m not sure that male privilege exists in my world.

Now it certainly does exist in some cultures that have been imported into the uk over the last 100 years,  but thatâ€™s a different thread.


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## bobmac (May 26, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So regarding modern male privilege, what can I do that my wife canâ€™t do ( if she wanted to), Iâ€™m struggling to find anything tbh.
		
Click to expand...

She couldn't be a mod on a golf forum.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 26, 2018)

bobmac said:



			She couldn't be a mod on a golf forum.



Click to expand...

Yes she could, if she wanted to and Mike was happy to appoint her.btw you think Iâ€™m a tough cookie ? You do not want Mrs Fragger anywhere near here ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±


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## Imurg (May 26, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes she could, if she wanted to and Mike was happy to appoint her.btw you think Iâ€™m a tough cookie ? You do not want Mrs Fragger anywhere near here ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±
		
Click to expand...

She couldn't change a light bulb without a set of steps....:thup:


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## User20205 (May 26, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Clearly different people have different views on what equates to male privilege.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. It not something Iâ€™ve ever thought about until recently. For me itâ€™s not necessarily about opportunities, itâ€™s about an accepted set of behaviours & a way of acting. There are certain ways of behaving and associated actions available only to blokes IMO & if a women subscribes to them, sheâ€™s labelled â€˜one of the ladsâ€™


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## pauljames87 (May 26, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			how Do you define privilege, to me a privilege is something you are granted , over and above another person.

Many things that are seen as privileges are simply the result of generations of traditional gender roles which are gradually becoming less defined as time passes.
For instance it used to be that the women stayed home to look after the kids, the man went to work (gender roles) . But then the man would often go to the pub with his mates, while the woman stayed home ( privilege).(simplistic illustration).

So regarding modern male privilege, what can I do that my wife canâ€™t do ( if she wanted to), Iâ€™m struggling to find anything tbh. I have 3 daughters aged 24.22 & 20 and they all recognise the opportunities open to them are so much greater than when their mum was their age, they do not feel inferior to men in any way.

Thatâ€™s not to say that there arenâ€™t inequalities that need addressing regarding pay, casual and overt sexism etc but Iâ€™m not sure that male privilege exists in my world.

Now it certainly does exist in some cultures that have been imported into the uk over the last 100 years,  but thatâ€™s a different thread.
		
Click to expand...

My company does the worst â€œpositive discriminationâ€. Actively promote from areas that are under represented in certain fields. Means we often get people who would fly in the field overlooked and creates resentment. Our managing director says he wants 50% women respesentation in all grades but doesnâ€™t seem to understand that in history ladies havenâ€™t applied for the job as much so havenâ€™t gotten through.. so where do we promote from to get this 50% . What we will see is direct recruits into higher positions which will then create managers with poor experience in the field just to fill quoters. Then staff wonâ€™t respect the manager. How about just promote or recruit whoâ€™s best for the job? Regardless of race. Sex. Sexual preference , religion..


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			My company does the worst â€œpositive discriminationâ€. Actively promote from areas that are under represented in certain fields. Means we often get people who would fly in the field overlooked and creates resentment. Our managing director says he wants 50% women respesentation in all grades but doesnâ€™t seem to understand that in history ladies havenâ€™t applied for the job as much so havenâ€™t gotten through.. so where do we promote from to get this 50% . What we will see is direct recruits into higher positions which will then create managers with poor experience in the field just to fill quoters. Then staff wonâ€™t respect the manager. *How about just promote or recruit whoâ€™s best for the job? Regardless of race. Sex. Sexual preference , religion.*.
		
Click to expand...

Is the correct answer but in these current times where those prepared to scream until they are sick get the focus there is more weight put on your orientation than your ability.


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## pauljames87 (May 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Is the correct answer but in these current times where those prepared to scream until they are sick get the focus there is more weight put on your orientation than your ability.
		
Click to expand...

exactly. sick of that way of the world.. 2 year ago I went for a job thats high failure rate.. failed on one part.. someone on another line passed same time being rubbish (worse) at that same part and still opening admits they are poor at it.. lots of people told me to put in a complaint as its unfair.. instead kept my head down.. got the job again and rather than be labeled as a trouble maker and shunted to another line where I might be unhappy they kept me where I already worked and know everyone.


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## PatriciaOrozco (May 27, 2018)

Both male and female privileges exist. And they should exist! We are different. Geez.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 28, 2018)

PatriciaOrozco said:



			Both male and female privileges exist. And they should exist! We are different. Geez.
		
Click to expand...

True. Don't know how many time I've seen women use the mens toilets when theirs are busy. If a man used the women's toilets he would probably get arrested.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 28, 2018)

One of my friends was playing in a mixed event last week and walked up to the ladies' tee on the 18th instead of walking back to the mens and claimed he was identifying as cross-gender for the rest of the round.  He was having a laugh but the two of the women in the fourball went totally apesiht over it.    They love equality when it suits them.....


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2018)

Pathetic Shark said:



			One of my friends was playing in a mixed event last week and walked up to the ladies' tee on the 18th instead of walking back to the mens and claimed he was identifying as cross-gender for the rest of the round.  He was having a laugh but the two of the women in the fourball went totally apesiht over it.    They love equality when it suits them.....
		
Click to expand...

A Labour party member did that as a joke recently as his local party had an all female list requirement. He stated that he identified as a woman on Fridays, handily the day of the selection process. They had to include him but shortly after he was suspended from the party &#128542;. They didn't see the funny side.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2018)

Being allowed to go into the clubhouse when the ladies are having an open competition 

Though in general I don't stay very long after the first _"what are *you * doing here - most men couldn't put up with a clubhouse full of women"_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2018)

Some form of Male privilege going on in The Chase a couple of weeks back - just not quite sure what...with the not quite 'divine' Joan being the odd one out...


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## Blue in Munich (May 29, 2018)

And it would appear there's female privilege;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44287094


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			And it would appear there's female privilege;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44287094

Click to expand...

I think examples like this are what are never mentioned when male privilege comes up. And there are others. 

Earlier it was mentioned that men don't receive comments on the clothes they wear and are not told to smile by strangers. Two examples, so how about two reverse examples; 
Women aren't told to 'man up' and it's socially acceptable for them to cry (I don't think the same thing can often be said for men - of course there are examples where it's socially acceptable for a man to cry). 

There was a documentary on strippers where they interviewed male and female strippers. The females said that the overwhelming majority of customers were polite, respected boundaries and appreciated the art of stripping. The male strippers said that a large proportion of customers were the absolute opposite and would grab, grope and not respect the performer. 

There's inequalities everywhere.


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## Hacker Khan (May 30, 2018)

So just to check, on one side we have centuries of males holding the majority of religious, economic and political power in society and on the other we have the fact that occasionally girls go into mens bogs, sometimes male strippers do not get 'respected' and women are not told to man up.  Well, that's balanced it all out then, not sure what women are complaining about.....


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## londonlewis (May 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			So just to check, on one side we have centuries of males holding the majority of religious, economic and political power in society and on the other we have the fact that occasionally girls go into mens bogs, sometimes male strippers do not get 'respected' and women are not told to man up.  Well, that's balanced it all out then, not sure what women are complaining about.....
		
Click to expand...

We are talking about modern era and today's world. 
I've never denied that male privilege didn't exist. I am questioning whether it does now. 

Have women alive today suffered because of things that happend over a century ago? And have new laws or changes to society not been made since the 1800s? 
The examples I gave above were in line with examples that were gave earlier in the thread Hacker, but thanks for wading in on things.


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