# Direction of the arms in the swing....



## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)

JO will probably guess what I've been reading about when I post this question, but interested in everyone else's opinion.




Click to enlarge.

If you were to take a standard address position and take the club away with NO PIVOT / SHOULDER TURN i.e. just the arms, what direction do you think should they travel?

a) pink
b) blue
c) grey

If you're a lefty then I hope 'none of the above' is your answer


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## fundy (Sep 3, 2013)

why on earth would I want to take the club away with no shoulder turn? Totally illogical question imo


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## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)

fundy said:



			why on earth would I want to take the club away with no shoulder turn? Totally illogical question imo
		
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I don't think you'd want to do that fundy.  I'm reasonably sure that the shoulder turn and pivot are quite important aspects to a golf swing.  Also, make sure you're holding a club when trying to hit the ball.  Golf shoes.  They're important too.

I'm trying to gauge opinion as to what direction their arms should or do travel in the first picosecond of the golf swing.


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## sawtooth (Sep 3, 2013)

Somewhere between B and C.

C is too much of an exaggerated inside path.


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## fundy (Sep 3, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I don't think you'd want to do that fundy.  I'm reasonably sure that the shoulder turn and pivot are quite important aspects to a golf swing.  Also, make sure you're holding a club when trying to hit the ball.  Golf shoes.  They're important too.

I'm trying to gauge opinion as to what direction their arms should or do travel in the first picosecond of the golf swing.
		
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and they say some people over think the golf swing lol. Do we get a 2nd diagram for the next picosecond?


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## One Planer (Sep 3, 2013)

The blue line for me. Keeping the club out in front of me and parallell to my toe line going back.

My swing used to be the grey line, quite literally, where I swung the club head low and behind me. Caused me no end of issues and caused a very inconsistent swing.

Now, I used a drill similar to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LZo2ts4C-o&list=PL8F967851C268C53F

If I get flat, grey line, I shank


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## bobmac (Sep 3, 2013)

fundy said:



			and they say some people over think the golf swing lol. Do we get a 2nd diagram for the next picosecond?
		
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Totally agree


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

A - the pink line.

The arms move upwards and away from you over your right shoulder, your turn takes the club around to the side. It's referred to as the "Arm swing illusion"...... and you really shouldn't be reading posts on GolfWrx!!!!


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## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)

fundy said:



			and they say some people over think the golf swing lol. Do we get a 2nd diagram for the next picosecond?
		
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Nope.  You get nothing until you pick a colour.


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## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)

justone said:



			a - the pink line.

The arms move upwards and away from you over your right shoulder, your turn takes the club around to the side. It's referred to as the "arm swing illusion"...... And you really shouldn't be reading posts on golfwrx!!!!
		
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booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2013)

I would suggest you could manipulate it into what ever position you wanted in the first two or three feet.   The problem occurs when your left arm crashes into your rib cage, if you don't rotate the torso from there you can only lift them.


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

This is the vid that I posted on that thread back in April....

[video=youtube;_JES-8I-VAk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/video]

I thought everyone knew this already...... 


if you do this drill it's important to make sure you do it with some spine tilt towards the ball and have your shoulder plane tilted at the 'top of your backswing' otherwise you rehearse something that is way too flat shouldered :thup:


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest you could manipulate it into what ever position you wanted in the first two or three feet.
		
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You'd be wrong.


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## garyinderry (Sep 3, 2013)

I really stuggle with this.   its like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time!


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			I really stuggle with this.   its like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time! 

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I agree that it's a hard concept to grasp as most would believe that we swing the club around ourselves with our arms rather than just lift it up. It's just the blend of the two moves that creates the 'swing', it isn't really a swing at all


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## garyinderry (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I agree that it's a hard concept to grasp as most would believe that we swing the club around ourselves with our arms rather than just lift it up. It's just the blend of the two moves that creates the 'swing', it isn't really a swing at all 

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I look like I am doing some sort of busted robot dance in my living room when trying to get my head around this.


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Ok then, try cheating!

Turn your shoulders to the right a little (10-20 degrees) THEN swing your arms. You should feel like they stay very much in front of your chest and if you hinge your wrists properly you should end up on a beautiful plane.


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## garyinderry (Sep 3, 2013)

ill give this a whirl tonight. have to head to work.  cheers


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## sawtooth (Sep 3, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
		
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We cant be talking about the same thing because there is absolutely no way that my arms follow that pink line from address.


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## fundy (Sep 3, 2013)

sawtooth said:



			We cant be talking about the same thing because there is absolutely no way that my arms follow that pink line from address.
		
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Of course they dont because like every golfer you turn your shoulders.


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## Alex1975 (Sep 3, 2013)

Am I missing the point of this? Is this just a post where some are trying to get something straight in there heads?


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Am I missing the point of this? Is this just a post where some are trying to get something straight in there heads?
		
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I think Virtuocity found out something new to him and wanted to share because it might enlighten some other people who are interested in swing/biomechanic theory.

Some people like to talk about swing stuff, some people like to talk about their Mizuno clubs.......


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## One Planer (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Some people like to talk about swing stuff, some people like to talk about their Mizuno clubs....... 

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Easy!! :angry:


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Didn't even realize you played Mizuno's Gareth


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## Alex1975 (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I think Virtuocity found out something new to him and wanted to share because it might enlighten some other people who are interested in swing/biomechanic theory.

Some people like to talk about swing stuff, some people like to talk about their Mizuno clubs....... 

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Nope, woow woow, I love talking swing stuff, you know I do! I was just not getting the point of this one. Who cares what your arms do in a situation that it totally false? If we are talking bio-mechanics then its all about your body not crashing into its self! You move your arms without moving your body out the way and you are crashing into yourself, nothing to learn about that?!


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Who cares what your arms do in a situation that it totally false? If we are talking bio-mechanics then its all about your body not crashing into its self! You move your arms without moving your body out the way and you are crashing into yourself, nothing to learn about that?!
		
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But your arms DO move that way... it's just that they don't APPEAR TO because your turn brings the club to the inside. Your arms are actually lifting the club up AWAY from you, not around you, your shoulder turn is doing that part. If you moved your arms without moving your body out of the way (as you said) you'd never crash into yourself as you are actually swinging the club AWAY from yourself. you only crash into yourself when you have the arm swing WRONG because you're trying to swing your arms around your body instead of away from it.

Hope that helps, seeing as you love this stuff..... :ears:


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## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I think Virtuocity found out something new to him and wanted to share because it might enlighten some other people who are interested in swing/biomechanic theory.

Some people like to talk about swing stuff
		
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Pretty much this.

Granted, it's not quite as interesting as talking about golf socks, shoes, NEEEEEWWWW SHHHHIIIIIINEEEEEEES or custom fitting but hey ho.

Just in case anyone mistakenly stumbles upon this thread in future, please revert to one of the following slow play threads which can be found below.  Apologies that this is just a tiny sample.

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...-another-slow-play-thread&highlight=slow+play
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?59075-Sorry-Slow-Play-Again&highlight=slow+play
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...The-Plot-amp-Just-Tee-Off&highlight=slow+play
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...er-be-knocked-on-the-head&highlight=slow+play
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...y-bad-etiquette-and-so-on&highlight=slow+play


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## Alex1975 (Sep 3, 2013)

Yep, OK, far to defensive for me, James if you want your own section ask for it, don't get all twitchy when anyone dares discuss anything you say. 

Virtuocity I think all this is very interesting, far more so than any of the threads you posted(in the links above) and I would love to see more of this stuff. This particular thread is not going to help you as you are talking about something that does not happen, who cares what your arms would do if you did not move your body, you do move it, once they have finished moving on your pink line they crash directly into your chest and you would have no way to make contact with the ball on anything like a consistent basis. 

I actually still think I must be missing the point of the thread though. And my comments are in no way a dig.


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## One Planer (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Didn't even realize you played Mizuno's Gareth   

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Fnar, fnar 

As a side question to this. Is the move you describe in #26 present in all swings, or, could someone potentially get wrong?


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Yep, OK, far to defensive for me, James if you want your own section ask for it, don't get all twitchy when anyone dares discuss anything you say.
		
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I'm not being defensive, you said it doesn't happen when it does. It's a discussion and I'm saying how it is. If you want to disagree that's entirely your prerogative mate :thup:


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## Alex1975 (Sep 3, 2013)

Not moving your body does not happen.....


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Gareth said:



			As a side question to this. Is the move you describe in #26 present in all swings, or, could someone potentially get wrong?
		
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The vid in #12 explains it pretty well, we often learn by what we see and then interpret that wrongly. We don't actually swing the club around us - even though it might FEEL like we do. Normally what happens is that in getting it wrong the hands out-race the shoulders and drag the club too much to the inside (and too low) in the takeaway and from there it's a series of compensatory moves in order to hit the ball with any consistency.


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## One Planer (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			The vid in #12 explains it pretty well, we often learn by what we see and then interpret that wrongly. We don't actually swing the club around us - even though it might FEEL like we do. Normally what happens is that in getting it wrong the hands out-race the shoulders and drag the club too much to the inside (and too low) in the takeaway and from there it's a series of compensatory moves in order to hit the ball with any consistency.
		
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Sounds like a previous habit of mine


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You'd be wrong.
		
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Not sure what you mean by that remark?

I can manipulate the clubhead out away from me, straight along the ball to target line or round to the inside by moving my arms and not rotating by torso.   At a point where the club head has moved around 3 feet I then have a problem, my left arm is now pushed against my rib cage and I cant move it any further round, I can only move it upwards.

Please explain what is wrong with that?    I know it's not what you want to do but the OP was asking about taking the club back without rotation.


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## Rooter (Sep 3, 2013)

I cant add anything constructive, but i have found the thread very interesting! i hadn't really thought about it in the way the video JO posted, i can now see where potentially i have been creating problems for myself. I have been trying to work on less arms more body doing the hard work and am understanding it better now, i can see where i need to practice! explains a lot to me!

carry on.


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Not sure what you mean by that remark?
		
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I apologise, my remark was incorrect - you can swing the club around by your ankles if that's what *you* want to 'teach' and have people think that to be correct way to perform a decent stroke. I would choose the proper way.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I apologise, my remark was incorrect - you can swing the club around by your ankles if that's what *you* want to 'teach' and have people think that to be correct way to perform a decent stroke. I would choose the proper way.
		
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Why do you do this?

You should have used all my quote, not just a bit that is taking it out of context.

THE OP ASKED ABOUT TAKING THE ARMS AWAY WITHOUT ROTATING THE BODY.   I NEVER SUGGESTED IT!!      I answered his question, I didnt suggest this is the correct way to make a back swing. Did I?


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## bobmac (Sep 3, 2013)

Now where's that popcorn recipe gone


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you do this?
		
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Because I understood the question precisely and knew EXACTLY what he was implying. His question was "what direction do you think should they travel" to which your answer was "what ever position you wanted in the first two or three feet" which I decided all by myself to be NOT the answer he was looking for, and is therefore effectively the wrong answer. It's also the wrong answer should anyone want to use that advice to create a good golf swing, so it was wrong twice. If you didn't know the answer or don't understand it that's OK, if you can't accept that your answer was wrong and want to argue about it then that's up to you, you're going to have to continue alone.

Edit your post as much as you like.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Because I understood the question precisely and knew EXACTLY what he was implying. His question was "what direction do you think should they travel" to which your answer was "what ever position you wanted in the first two or three feet" which I decided all by myself to be NOT the answer he was looking for, and is therefore effectively the wrong answer. It's also the wrong answer should anyone want to use that advice to create a good golf swing, so it was wrong twice. If you didn't know the answer or don't understand it that's OK, if you can't accept that your answer was wrong and want to argue about it then that's up to you, you're going to have to continue alone.

Edit your post as much as you like.
		
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I took his question to to be asking what direction they would travel.  I tried to explain that they could infact travel in any of the ways he highlighted.   I didnt say any of them were right or wrong.

Normally my Edits are to correct spelling and gramatical mistakes..  I do that sometimes.

But, sometimes I add something I later beileve should have been there.


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2013)

fundy said:



			and they say some people over think the golf swing lol. Do we get a 2nd diagram for the next picosecond?
		
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I'm with Fundy on this one.

Why would it matter? I'm not going to swing that way anyway! And I've got about 147 other sing thoughts I'm trying to flush too!

Can't see the point of the question in fact - it's an unrealistic situation being asked about.


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I'm with Fundy on this one.

Why would it matter? I'm not going to swing that way anyway! And I've got about 147 other sing thoughts I'm trying to flush too!

Can't see the point of the question in fact - it's an unrealistic situation being asked about.
		
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1,290 replies and over 100,000 page views at GolfWRX means that at least _some_ people don't find it pointless. I think it's helped a lot of people understand the backswing isn't 'created' by the arms swinging the club around oneself, and put them on a better path [pun intended]  About 40 replies here of which 20 don't even understand the question :thup:


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## sev112 (Sep 3, 2013)

This is actually a very good thread and question, and I have to mostly agree with JO on this 

A very good reason why it is important is that if you are trying to work out why yournswing is not performing is to be able to break it down into its component parts which means wrist cock, arm lift, shoulder turn and hip turn.
You can do each of those individually from your initial set up, and in fact if you have never done so it is quite educational to see what arm lift and wrist cock (say) actually involve when you do them on their own, and also what they do to the club head and shaft.

E.g.  At set up, try And cock your wrists without doing anything else - where does the club go ?  And when you think that unlocking your wrist in the last point of the downswing , it is not surprising that many people don't have a square club face at impact.

Or try to turn your hips without shoulder turn etc - then you can feel the movement in your feet that allows this movement, and in fact how little movement is needed to move your hips to 45 degrees to the right

Etc etc

very very useful, 

In particular if you see what happens when you "lift" your arms without doing anything else - where does the club go ?  quite a shock for many


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			1,290 replies and over 100,000 page views at GolfWRX means that at least _some_ people don't find it pointless. I think it's helped a lot of people understand the backswing isn't 'created' by the arms swinging the club around oneself, and put them on a better path [pun intended]  About 40 replies here of which 20 don't even understand the question :thup:
		
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Better point me to the WRX thread then. Because I can't see the point of the OP. Your vid, on the other hand, is interesting, but something that's nothing new. I seem to remember Bob (I think) posting that the 'top of the back-swing' can be established this way eons ago and it was one of the first things my coach showed me many years ago.


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

You're right, it's nothing new, I don't even know why Virtuocity started the thread, perhaps he didn't know......


Here's Bob doin' it.....

[video=youtube;bhBL4jB--Z4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhBL4jB--Z4[/video]


Hopefully Virtuocity feels really ashamed now and won't come here posting this swing rubbish any more, especially not old stuff!!


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## Region3 (Sep 3, 2013)

It reads to me like a few people have taken the question to mean "how would you swing if you weren't allowed to move your shoulders" when it might have been better to word the question "how do the arms move relative to the shoulders during the golf swing"

Just my opinion. I also think there are other things worth worrying about more, but nothing wrong with discussing it - nicely, and without playing games and setting traps.


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## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)




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## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)

Region3 said:



			nothing wrong with discussing it - nicely, and without playing games and setting traps.
		
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Who did the latter?


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## sev112 (Sep 3, 2013)

Have a look at Furyk and Darcy's swings
They do something not dissimilar in their backswings and it hasn't done their careers any harm


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## Alex1975 (Sep 3, 2013)

It's the aggressive defence and language used in the post that is so laughable. Are you trying to help people enjoy there golf more or massage your ego?

Once again its possible that I have missed the point of the post. Is this just about keeping the arms in front of the chest throughout the swing?


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Region3 said:



			It reads to me like a few people have taken the question to mean "how would you swing if you weren't allowed to move your shoulders" when it might have been better to word the question "how do the arms move relative to the shoulders during the golf swing"

Just my opinion. I also think there are other things worth worrying about more, but nothing wrong with discussing it - nicely, and without playing games and setting traps.
		
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Is suggesting to Virtuocity how he should word his own questions a game or a trap? 

If it's a trap then perhaps he might PM you to proof read all of his posts/thread tiltes/questions so the wording suits. Are these the '_other things worth worrying about more_' that you were referring to or was there something else even more pressing?

If it's not a trap and it's a game then thanks for playing! ...and who's turn is it?


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Is this just about keeping the arms in front of the chest throughout the swing?
		
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That depends.... how would you explain to someone how to keep the arms in front of the chest throughout the swing?


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## virtuocity (Sep 3, 2013)

I'm going to go for the blue line.


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## Region3 (Sep 3, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Who did the latter?
		
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Maybe it was a bad choice of words, but sometimes James's posts look like they're inviting somebody to give the obvious 'wrong' answer, much like they do on QI.

No offence intended James, you know I like you really


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## Region3 (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Is suggesting to Virtuocity how he should word his own questions a game or a trap? 

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It wasn't intended to be. After realising what the question was about I just thought it could have been described better. I meant nothing by it.



JustOne said:



			If it's a trap then perhaps he might PM you to proof read all of his posts/thread tiltes/questions so the wording suits.
		
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That's just being facetious.




JustOne said:



			Are these the '_other things worth worrying about more_' that you were referring to or was there something else even more pressing?
		
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No they aren't, but I'm not going there as I don't want to be thought of as rude, although it may be too late.

I shall keep my opinions to myself in future.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Is suggesting to Virtuocity how he should word his own questions a game or a trap? 

If it's a trap then perhaps he might PM you to proof read all of his posts/thread tiltes/questions so the wording suits. Are these the '_other things worth worrying about more_' that you were referring to or was there something else even more pressing?

If it's not a trap and it's a game then thanks for playing! ...and who's turn is it? 

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No James, you set the traps.  We know you are clever but you don't need to put down others to prove it.


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Region3 said:



			No they aren't, but I'm not going there as I don't want to be thought of as rude, although it may be too late.
		
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I wouldn't be offended by anything you say Gary, I don't consider you rude at all. I did think that given the 'tension' already in the thread that it was kind of ironic that your first contribution to the thread was to criticise Virtuocity on his choice of words and then go on to say "there are other things worth worry about more". If we are at crossed wires then I apologise. I'd be interested which other things IN THE SWING are worth worrying about more than taking the club away properly, getting it on plane properly and setting yourself up for the downswing properly but I respect your choice to keep your opinions to yourself and ignore my posts if that's what you want.


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## Region3 (Sep 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I did think that given the 'tension' already in the thread that it was kind of ironic that your first contribution to the thread was to criticise Virtuocity on his choice of words
		
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It wasn't intended as criticism, and I apologise if it came across that way.

I was just trying to explain to anyone who had misinterpreted the original question what I thought it meant.


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## JustOne (Sep 3, 2013)

Region3 said:



			It wasn't intended as criticism, and I apologise if it came across that way.

I was just trying to explain to anyone who had misinterpreted the original question what I thought it meant.
		
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It was crystal clear what your post was about and you were right, I just happened to pass comment on the ironic side given the state of the thread. I though my post was reasonably clearly tongue in cheek given that I put two of my best smilies in there!!! 

Now what are these more important things?


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## sawtooth (Sep 16, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You're right, it's nothing new, I don't even know why Virtuocity started the thread, perhaps he didn't know......


Here's Bob doin' it.....

[video=youtube;bhBL4jB--Z4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhBL4jB--Z4[/video]


Hopefully Virtuocity feels really ashamed now and won't come here posting this swing rubbish any more, especially not old stuff!! 

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Can this weird takeaway be used as a drill to swing a bit more upright in the backswing?

I might be wrong but if you freeze it at the top of Bob's backswing that his hands are higher than normal. I might need to try this weird backswing if it somehow trains me to swinging the club a little more upright.


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## JustOne (Sep 16, 2013)

I wouldn't Sean.

Why do you want your hands higher?

Check this pic.....

If your hands were 2-3 inches higher than Tiger's here, you'd be perfik!!








just start from this position (called P2) where the club is parallel to the TOE LINE and the shoulders are 45 degrees turned, then swing the club UP to the 11 oclock position (see tiger above).... whilst your shoulders turn the other 45 degrees.


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## sawtooth (Sep 16, 2013)

Its been closer to 10 o'clock James!  I will try and get a new photo or vid. Maybe its got a more steep recently but I think its still a bit on the flat side.


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## JustOne (Sep 16, 2013)

sawtooth said:



			Its been closer to 10 o'clock James!  I will try and get a new photo or vid. Maybe its got a more steep recently but I think its still a bit on the flat side.
		
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It normally is with US TYPES because we think that we swing the club behind us, and a lot of instruction isn't very clear (it talks about having the left arm across the chest etc etc) so we work it too much inside rather than feeling that the club (and left arm) hinge more UP the chest after P2.


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